This action might not be possible to undo. Are you sure you want to continue?
from the Forum department...
Speed of Synchronous Generator
Posted by Muhammad Salman on 26 February, 2010 - 4:08 pm
I have confusion as how increase in electrical load lead to decrease in generator rpm? And why if we increase the generator rpm (by injecting more fuel in gas turbines) increase the power?
3 out of 3 members thought this post was helpful...
Posted by CSA on 27 February, 2010 - 12:12 am
The only way that an in increase in electrical load can decrease speed is if the load is greater than the generation. So, if the load is 20MW and the frequency is stable, if the load increases to 21 MW (actually any value above 20MW) and fuel is not increased then the speed (and the frequency will decrease). Think about riding a bicycle along a flat road at a stable speed which is about three-fourths of your maximum speed and you need to maintain that steady speed for the duration of your ride. And you are approaching a hill. A hill that is long and fairly steep. As you start up the hill, you increase the torque you are applying to the pedals to maintain your speed. But, the hill is long and you reach the limit of your ability to produce torque and maintain the speed and the bike begins to slow down. A generator is a device for converting torque into amperes. Power is expressed by multiplying volts times amps (basically) and since generators generally run at a relatively constant voltage (usually no more than plus or minus 5 percent of rated terminal voltage), the power produced by a generator increases and decreases as the amperes that are flowing in the generator stator windings. And, to increase the amperes it is necessary to increase the torque input into the generator from the prime mover (be it a reciprocating engine, a combustion turbine, a steam turbine, a wind turbine, a hydro turbine--any device that can produce torque). More fuel equals more torque; less fuel equals less torque. Just exactly like on the bicycle, in the example above and in the real world. When a generator is paralleled with other generators on an alternating current grid, the load is the sum of all the lights and motors and computers and other electrical loads. The total amount of electrical generation must exactly match the amount of electrical load in order for the grid frequency to remain at rated. If the total generation exceeds the load then the frequency (and the speed) of all the generators will increase above the desired grid frequency. If the total generation is less than the load then the frequency (and the speed) of all the generators will decrease below the desired grid frequency. And one of the most important aspects of any AC grid is its frequency (in most parts of the world). The frequency of an AC machine is expressed by the formula: F = (P * N) / 120 where F = Frequency, in hertz P = the number of poles of the generator rotor N = the speed of the generator rotor (in RPM) When synchronous generators (alternators) are connected in parallel with each other on an AC grid, they are all operating at a speed that is directly proportional to the frequency of the AC grid. No generator can go faster or slower than the speed which is proportional to the frequency. There are great magnetic forces at work in the synchronous generator to keep the rotating magnetic field of the generator in locked synchronism with the magnetic fields induced in the stator winding by the current flowing in the stator windings. These forces keep every generator's rotor locked in synchronous speed with the frequency of the grid with which they are connected. The production of electricity is all about producing torque in one place, to be used in another. The torque is converted to amperes, transmitted over wires, and then reconverted into torque. So, generators are just supplying torque from where they are located to many different locations--anywhere wires can be run. So, I would like to know how and when you experience a decrease in speed when the load increases. Are you speaking of the entire grid? Or just a small isolated generating "island" and it's load?
Posted by sudhanshu on 27 July, 2010 - 2:41 am
i think what you have provided is wonderful and very useful. but a question in my mind is that, like in synchronous motors, is it not possible that the speed remains constant and angle b/w the excitation voltage and terminal voltage change so that the net torque required is met by the the current due to change in angle. normally what happens in motor the reverse of that can be assumed to be true in generators. but in synchronous machines the case is coming out to be different. motor is constant speed, whereas in generator i think nothing is constant. also a second doubt. if we look at a vector formula then :E = V + IZ now in generator, when load inc IZ inc , also speed decreases so E decrease. due to armature reaction V also decrease(generally). how can all the 3 parameters change simultaneously ?
2 out of 2 members thought this post was helpful...
Posted by CSA on 27 July, 2010 - 2:20 pm
If there is no automatic governor on the prime mover driving the synchronous generator providing some kind of speed/load control for the prime mover and the generator rotor, and if there is no automatic control of the generator terminal voltage, and if the generator and prime mover are being operated independently of other generators and their prime movers, then if the load (real or reactive) changes speed can change and generator terminal voltage can change and armature reaction has an effect on speed and load and voltage. In the real world where prime movers used to drive synchronous generators have automatic governors to control speed or load, and synchronous generator excitation systems have automatic regulators to control generator terminal voltage (or VAr setpoint or power factor setpoint), when loads change the governors respond appropriately to maintain speed, load, generator terminal voltage. It would be disastrous to operate a prime mover and generator in any kind of application (supplying a small isolated load independent of other generators and prime movers, or synchronized to a grid with other prime movers and generators) without a governor that was capable of responding appropriately to load changes and without an exciter regulator capable of responding to VAr changes.
Speed of Synchronous Generator
All of this counter emf stuff is wonderful in that it helps us to understand what's physically happening inside the generator and possibly how generators are designed and constructed, but it doesn't help us to understand how generators and their prime movers are operated in the real world, and how to operate them reliably and properly to supply power to loads at stable speed (frequency) and load and reactances. It's very important to understand all of the components of equipment that produces electrical power. There must be a source of torque and there must be a source of excitation. The torque is provided by the prime mover (turbine, reciprocating engine, etc.), and the excitation is provided by the exciter regulator, sometimes called the AVR (Automatic Voltage Regulator). When there is a source of torque (provided by the prime mover) and voltage (provided by the exciter regulator and the rotating magnetic field of the generator), the generator can convert the torque into amps. The torque must generally be provided at a specific frequency, which is directly proportional to the speed the prime mover is spinning the generator rotor. The speed of the prime mover can be controlled by the prime mover governor. Further, when a synchronous generator and its prime mover is operated in parallel with other synchronous generators and their prime movers, the speed of all of the generator rotors (and hence their prime movers if directly coupled to the generator rotors) is fixed by the frequency of the grid. If the grid frequency goes up, the speed of all the generator rotors goes up at the same time. Conversely, if the grid frequency goes down, the speed of all the generator rotors goes down at the same time. It is the job of the grid/system operators to control the amount of generation so that it exactly matches the load on the system so that the frequency remains relatively constant; failure to do so can result in unstable grid frequencies. And if the grid operators don't account for the reactive "loads" of the grid, then the grid voltage can also be unstable or too high or too low. Everything is related, but it's really important to consider all the conditions of operation, and many times textbooks and references don't properly state all the conditions when they're explaining these very important principles. So, yes, in the absence of any kind of "response" to changes in load then speed and voltage and counter emf can all change. But, that just doesn't normally happen in the real world of electrical power generating equipment.
Posted by jojo on 28 July, 2010 - 5:46 am
While agreeing with all that was said above, I am not sure whether Salman's situation was actually referring to situations where you have an isolated and very finite grid. Isolated grids have an added limitation in that keeping exactly 50Hz (or 60Hz for all that matters) is somewhat difficult, or puts too much demand on controlling/governing systems. In such environments it is normal to accept some deviation from the nominal frequency. Given this it is observed that the actual load is dependent on the frequency at that time. One must keep in mind that certain loads, especially motor driven loads, are speed/frequency dependent, and so if the frequency falls, their power demand falls also. Water pumps are a case in point. In such situations one observes that the system manages to stabilise at a different frequency with minimal control system intervention, eg. 49.95hz for 50Hz systems. Obviously to bring the frequency back to 50Hz, one needs to increase the power input to the generator prime mover, thus ending up increasing the speed/frequency of the system. And this I believe this is what Salman was commenting upon when he said that if they increase generator rpm they increase the power of the generator.
Posted by CSA
on 28 July, 2010 - 11:56 am
jojo, Frankly, I didn't really know how to respond to Muhammad Salman's post, but made an effort anyway. His summary asked about decreasing speed with increasing speed, and his post talked about decreasing speed with increasing load, and increasing load by increasing speed. Would you agree that if a synchronous generator is being operated in parallel with other generators that an increase in load (on the system!) would generally have little or no effect on a properly operated system (grid)? A change of 0.001 Hz is virtually imperceptible on the operator interface of most prime movers. I really wonder if some operators actually watch prime mover speed when they are "changing load". I believe the assumption is that as fuel is increased during starting and acceleration, that when load is "increased" after the unit is synchronized to the grid with other generators that speed will change with "load" changes. In other words, that increasing the fuel flow when the unit is synchronized will have the same affect as increasing fuel flow when it's not: that speed will change. All they are really doing, when they are connected to a grid with other generators, is changing the amount of load their generator is providing. They aren't changing the load of the grid. And, the speed of their unit usually doesn't change by a perceptible amount, or an amount that is proportional to change in fuel flow that would be experienced if the unit was not synchronized with other generators. The point of reference of most of the questions regarding speed and load and counter emf of synchronous generators is not clear at all. As Muhammad Salman has not responded, we don't know if his question was answered or not.
Posted by sudhanshu
on 28 July, 2010 - 8:07 am
Thanks a lot. A large part of my doubt is clear now. if you know any good reference book do tell me. i want the effect of load on an ISOLATED alternator, without keeping anything constant, i.e. just an isolator supplying a variable load. And thanks again for the information.
Posted by jojo on 29 July, 2010 - 1:33 am
CSA, Your reasoning is perfectly right, as long as the size of the generators is small with respect to the total grid capacity. Continental systems are huge, so a 1250MW generator will only supply a very small percentage of the total demand. Changing its output will have a minimal effect on the system frequency. However in small island systems, e.g. where a 30MW generator supplies 10% of the total system demand, a change in generator output will have a big effect on the system frequency. In such situations, one observes that to maintain system frequency, the prime mover governors are constantly acting, due to the constant corrective action of the droop control. Droop settings of 4% to 5% are used to create some system stability, obviously at the expense of not maintaining the system frequency exactly 50Hz (or 60Hz as the case may be). The load manager then corrects the generators' setpoints to maintain the frequency close to nominal, and this is done at a much slower rate.
Speed of Synchronous Generator
Hope this clarifies my point.
Posted by CSA
on 29 July, 2010 - 1:00 pm
jojo, I have done some shipboard generator control work and troubleshooting, and the "islands" don't get much smaller than that. (Though some naval vessels are bigger than some countries I've worked in!) And, in all cases, even when dockside and loading and unloading with large shipboard cranes, the emphasis was always on frequency control, keeping the frequency as close to the setpoint as possible. This takes some good operational skills, and some good governor tuning, as well as good communications between the deck and engineering crews. The Chief Engineers would get really upset if the frequency wasn't controlled stably, and the Chief Mates would get upset if the cranes became sluggish and unresponsive. It's a learning experience for all, and some learnt the lessons better than others. Your point about smaller grids is well taken, and I do presume that people consider the relative size of generators compared to the grid when taking into account the effects of adding or removing generation. Most of the smaller grids I've worked on used 20-, 25- and 40 MW gas turbines for main generation, with some smaller steam turbines (less than 15 MW, if that large). A few locales had multiple 70- or 110 MW gas turbines, but those were larger peninsular grids with more load and generation than smaller regional grids. Thanks for your help with these posts; your clarity is most welcome! I wish I could understand all of these esoteric questions about emf and counter emf. I recall when I was in university how confusing the texts were about this versus our laboratory exercises where we had to learn about frequency control, isochronous and droop speed control, and paralleling/synchronizing. I just consider all of that emf and counter emf stuff as transmission method "background" stuff; it's nice to know but it's not ever measured in the day-to-day operation of power generation equipment. At any rate, we shall continue to endeavor to persevere, shall we not?
Posted by suhail on 5 August, 2010 - 12:19 am
thanks csa for sharing your valuable knowledge... frequency directly.. proportional to speed
0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful...
Posted by Namatimangan08 on 26 February, 2012 - 12:24 pm
> Your reasoning is perfectly right, as long as the size of the generators is small with respect to the total grid > capacity. Continental systems are huge, so a 1250MW generator will only supply a very small percentage of the total > demand. Changing its output will have a minimal effect on the system frequency. This is the thing that many people can't put in perspective. The size you are referring to is inertia. Physical size is only a part of inertia. Inertia or mass moment of inertia is Inertia= mass X radius of gyration^2 Without putting inertia in grid operations the only possible way to explain how a grid works is by assuming "all generators in parallel are locked into synchronism". This assumption is perfectly right to use in majority of cases. But definitely it will bring big problem if we want to design a power system from scratch or if we want to perform dynamic stability study. I give an example inertia at works. Assuming a US grid system says 2,500,000 MW. When the system is rotating at 60Hz, its inertial could be around 2 X 10^4GJ. If a 1000MW unit trips off, the rate of frequency decay becomes
Rate of decay = 60/((2 X 10^13Joule/(1000*10^6)) =0.003Hz/second (0.2Hz in 100 seconds) But then every second the governors for every prime movers in the system react to restore order. Every 4-10seconds AGC -constant frequency will try to support the frequency from dropping. You can see response time is much faster that frequency decay. As a result the actual mechanic can never been seen by observing system frequency alone. So if any person stays in USA, Canada, Japan, etc tries to learn the grid system from his system alone, there is greater chance he or she misses the what so called mass moment of inertia. Not all countries as lucky as the USA, Canada and Japan to have "an infinite grid system". My country is not an exception.
Posted by Ayub on 18 December, 2010 - 12:12 pm
Dear CSA, Your explanation is good. However there is a grey area wherein you talk about the additional torque being converted to Amps. It is the only possible result when the speed of the synchronous generator is held constant and if you try to increase the torque. Can you try to explain the transfer of torque to amps. Regards Ayub
Posted by CSA
on 19 December, 2010 - 4:53 pm
Electrical machines (motors and generators) are devices for converting electrical power into mechanical power (motors) and converting mechanical power into electrical power (generators).
2:12 pm Attempts are made to try to keep the explanation as simple and real-world as possible. this is the reason that the machine is running at a constant speed. we actually increase the power input to the turbine which increases the power output from the generator. for example if the machine mechanical input is increased. (I note you didn't question how motors produce torque from amps. lines parallel to the X axis are constant power lines while circle (arcs) drawn from the center O represent constant excitation. 2010 . This can be explained by the governor droop chara. That's what generators do: They convert torque into amps. torque is only responsible for the active current not the reactive current. That's why we produce electricity: To easily transmit torque from one place to many places using wires. And we're talking about units with properly acting governors. what i have presented is a idealised case . The originator of the thread asked why the machine speed decreases in case of a electrical load increase.Generator field voltage V . The difference is whether or not torque is being produced by the electrical machine (in this case it's a motor). a very simplified explanation is given below under steady state condition Power mech = Power electrical power if there is a small increase in the electrical power then deacclerating power = electrical power . however when a governor is present .2:13 am well once again i have to respectfully disagree/ slightly change what csa has said in his post regarding converting of torque into amps in a generator. the effect of such a operation is that the machine load angle increases. now the power line shifts from B to C.Speed of Synchronous Generator 4의 33페이지 There is virtually no difference between a motor and a generator. just in reverse.current output delta . It's exactly the same phenomenon. Posted by CSA on 29 December. but as the excitation is not varied it remains in the same curve B'.mechanical power this difference causes the machine to deaccelerate and thus reduce the speed. droop is defined as the percentage negative change in speed when the machine is loaded from no load to full load. 2010 .machine load angle phi . it senses a reduction in speed and increases the fuel input thus increasing the mechanical power . if there is a change in the mechanical or the electrical load in the machine acceleration or deacceleration of the machine takes place. it represents the machine operating region. Wires connect motors to generators. or whether the machine is converting torque into electrical power (in this case it's a generator).power factor of the machine http://www. you can see in the diagram that the operating point E is at the intersection of the constant power line B and constant excitation circle B'. The curve QR the maximum excitation of the generator. The droop chara of the machine is given as 4-5%. the torque being produced by the prime mover (turbine. Though the above machine is a simplification of what happens during a machine loading and unloading. The Tip of the point E is the operating point of the generator. in a steady state condition the mechanical torque applied by the turbine is equal to the backward electromagnetic torque produced by the generator. Synchronous machine chara. thus the new operating point is a intersection of the new power line C and the old excitation line B'. http://www.html The region OPQR represents the stable operating region of the generator. and we should be referring to stable grid frequency (unless otherwise stated). Varying the power without changing the excitation In the third diagram . and some assumptions have been made.The effect of such a operation is that the power factor of the machine reduces as shown in the figure. a more correct explanation would be that the mechanical torque applied to the shaft is converted to active electrical power. in some applications the electrical machine is used as both a motor and a generator. etc. There are mathematical formulae that could be used to explain this.Machine impedance I .com/thread/1267218529 2012-06-27 . thus the new operating point is E' which is a intersection of the constant power line B and the new excitation arc C'.) Posted by Process Value on 29 December.) is supplying the torque that the motors connected to it are supplying to their loads--through the wires that connect the motors to the generators. in any mode (droop or isochronous).control. the machine accelerates till a new steady sate is reached. now if the excitation is increases the magnitude of the E increases and shits to a new excitation arc C'.Generator terminal Voltage xd . So. Motors convert amps into torque. The total current in a generator is a vector addition of active current and reactive current .2shared. I am uploading a small picture here. P represents the maximum power output from the machine. thus reduction in speed is limited to the droop percentage. if there is no governor and the mechanical power remains the same the speed does on decreasing. The equation is given by E (angle delta) = V (angle zero) + I(angle phi)*Xd Varying the excitation without changing the power In the initial operating diagram we see that the operating point lies in the constant power line B. in effect. but in real operation both the power and excitation is varied thus the final operating point is a combination of the two. In fact. but you can find those on many Web sites if you need them. here E . if no power input is increased the generator power output follows this straight line. thus ignoring the losses the mechanical power is equal to the electrical power produced.com/photo/wszyBiLg/gen_curves. reciprocating engine. The deaccleration power mentioned in the post is the one which increases the load angle thus facilitating the transfer of more active electrical power. The machine actual parameters can be visualised by the operating diagram of the machine.
" Test procedure " . what would the speed do? (Without a governor there would be no droop. ie keep the machine more then 2-4 MW more than section load so that the excess is exported through the grid transformer. Inquiring minds want to know what kinds of speed changes we're talking about and for how long these speed changes last on real world units with properly acting governors. ir keep the section under 2-4 MW import and open the grid transformer. 2010 . which the originator did not ask about. And this question would be presuming a stable grid frequency which is at or very near rated frequency. You can state if reactive current is constant or not. Granted.or isochronous speed control. well this one is going to take me a little bit more time. they will talk about "reactive power" (which as we all know is a no-no on this site). a. The answer should also include the time period the speed changes are observed to occur.control. In any case. hopefully i will get the desired results with this. Wishing you a Happy and Prosperous NEW YEAR. to really feel / record the change the speed a minimum of 2 MW ( at present at a site with frame 5 machines) sudden loading and unloading should be there.Speed of Synchronous Generator 5의 33페이지 In general when someone asks about loading a unit. ProcessValue. the explanation given was valid. but i can do this. which makes this forum different from all the other discussions of alternator operation and loads in the world. Until the loading is complete. the question piqued my interest on how to simulate the loading and unloading of the machine that too by a significant load and sudden load. But. at which time a duly vigilant operator will check the VAr meter or the power factor meter and then adjust the excitation to maintain the desired setpoint. 2010 .7:39 am CSA makes my life difficult by assigning my difficult tasks. the models are coming on nicely i will post the results here. operators don't have control over the electrical load on the grid. we are not talking about percentages of speed. when alternators and their prime movers are operated in parallel with other units on a grid with a stable frequency (an "infinite" grid as some would say). is the amount of motors and lights and computers and other devices drawing power from a grid. does the speed/frequency drop when some load is applied and remain there until an operator takes some action? And. We're talking about hundredths and tenths of RPM for split seconds and fractions of a Hz for split seconds. the normal raise / lower will not work here. parallel the machine to the grid. but as i said i need a little time. only the "load" the prime mover(s) and alternator(s) they are operating can "assume" from the total load being supplied by all of the alternators and prime movers connected together on the grid. in either droop. the machine will be suddenly unloaded by 2-4 MW. there is an acceleration/deceleration and change in load angle (which is invisible to the eye. but the question should be viewed in the context of stable grid frequency when the units are operated in parallel with the grid. i will also run a trend recorder for DWATT anf DF with 40ms resolution. just kidding. you should also tell us by how much the speed/frequency changes and for how long if the units are being operated independent of the grid ("island mode").00095 seconds? Or is is 9. I am taking 3 days off and will be going to the site on 3'rd. the reverse of the operation. hopefully they would have started the machine by Monday and i will be able to do the above " experiment ". I am also working on a simulation with ETAP. how would a prime mover and alternator behave if a unit were synchronized to the grid without a governor and then electrical load were "applied" to the unit.) In the real world. and the frequency of the grid. or want a remakeover of the procedure please tell me.7:30 pm This test that ProcessValue has devised does not meet the requirements of the request posed to him. (Aren't we lucky?) It would be very interesting to know how much the speed (RPM) of the prime movers and generators (more correctly called alternators) at the site where ProcessValue works decreases when loaded (or increases when unloaded). Anxiously awaiting your response--with or without vectors or formulae. thus in effect simulating a loading and unloading of a unity PF load :). i cannot go and ask for a sudden feeder charge or turn on a motor. how much does the speed of the units at your site change when they are loaded and unloaded and for how long does this speed change exist? The question is regarding increasing (or decreasing) the amount of torque being provided by the prime mover to the alternator. like 1% or 0.) The machines at the site feed to a section load of 14 .25% or 2. if you have anything to add to the above test procedure. probably what is going to happen is that there will be a speed oscillation and will settle according to the droop chara. the amount of torque being produced by the prime mover and transmitted to the alternator. Is it 0. they are not usually asking about changing the reactive component of the load. but this is what i am goint to do. If they are asking about the reactive component of the load of an alternator they will usually use the term VAr or power factor.com/thread/1267218529 2012-06-27 . either "electrical power" (amps) or reactive current. or decreasing. perhaps then we can compare the simulation and real world results. but i will post my answers by jan 1st week. in both the above cases i will keep the VAR export/import as zero. And. Now open the grid transformer thus simulating the grid islanding. CSA. http://www. or.34%. the reference change too small to be recorded. when an alternator is "loaded" there is an imperceptible change in speed. loading and unloading refers to increasing. Posted by CSA on 31 December. b. CSA. doesn't change as machines are loaded and unloaded unless there is an imbalance between generation and load. It seems what needs clarification is the definition of "loading" and "unloading" and "electrical load" (or "load"). lol . there is a TG under shut down at site and they are keeping all the units under import and continuous import from grid. this will simulate the sudden loading of the machine. or "electrical load". We have to be very careful here on control. I will grant that one definition of "load".or isochronous speed control. Without vectors and formulae and neglecting the reactive current component.16 MW and have a grid transformer back up. As used in this context. So. Posted by Process Value on 31 December. And i nearly forgot. i will consult with the operations team and try to do it. keep the machine under 2-4 MW export.995 seconds? Or. In a real world situation where there is no VAr or Power Factor control in operation on the generator (alternator) exciter and when an operator "loads" a unit the excitation generally remains constant because it is manually operated.com lest the 'Exclamation Pointer' chastise us for incorrectly referring to reactive "power" in our discussions. naked or not) but for all intents and purposes the speed of the unit. respectively.
A subsequent poster (at least someone using a different name who did not identify himself as the original poster) asked about alternators operating independently of a grid and without any governor/control.. :). In actuality.. the total electrical load on the system (the numbers of motors and lights and computers) would need to increase by the same magnitude at the same rate in order for the grid frequency to remain absolutely constant.. No more and no less. Posted by Rahul P Sharma on 2 January. which is not the original question. to provide the nameplate data from the load gear box nameplates. A valid test would be to run a trend.. and I am not sure which state in India can claim to have a 'stable grid'.. Or.. The point is that units are not normally loaded or unloaded. And. still. A prime mover driving an alternator supplying a variable electrical load without a governor is a laboratory experiment. My definition of "loading" and "unloading" a prime mover and alternator being operated in parallel with other alternators is to increase the load being supplied to the electrical system by increasing the energy input to the prime mover. but as long as the frequency isn't changing by more than +/. or some other kind of automatic frequency control scheme) the grid frequency will remain relatively stable. and hence the response that was given.... Unit operators don't increase and decrease the "load" of the unit (prime mover and alternator) by changing the energy being input to the prime mover--NOT by changing the number of motors and lights and computers connected to the system to which the unit is connected. the "load" on a prime mover and the alternator it is driving he/she is not changing the electrical load on the system--only the amount of electrical load being provided by the alternator and prime mover under his control.com/thread/1267218529 2012-06-27 .control. when the "load" of an individual unit (prime mover and alternator) on an electrical system increases while connected to a normal grid in parallel with multiple alternators and prime movers. if the units at ProcessValue's plant are loaded and unloaded by increasing or decreasing the amount of fuel being admitted to the turbines. mechanical or some combination thereof. In other words. when the differential between the turbine speed reference and the actual turbine speed changes the governor will counter that action to maintain the same differential. no place in the world has a perfect grid frequency. Just as during normal unit operations in every part of the world where multiple prime movers and alternators supply an electrical load consisting of motors and lights and computers. But. then the test would be a valid one... So. which is not a typical loading or unloading method.. 2011 . except possibly at ProcessValue's site. if the electrical load on the grid does not change then what would tend to happen is that the grid frequency will tend to increase. Posted by Process Value on 6 January. That's what the operator knows as "load"--the amount of power being produced by the unit under his/her control..25 Hz in a very short period (seconds or less) we could review the results. So I guess.6:01 am http://www.2:10 pm That's one of your strong points. We want to know how much the speed (frequency) changes when fuel is changed and the electrical load being produced by the alternator being driven by the turbine changes while being operated in parallel with other prime movers and alternators on a system with a stable frequency. 1 out of 2 members thought this post was helpful. Operators don't have control of the numbers of motors and lights and computers. Rahul P. Now..0.. This is the "load" of their unit. The originator has never responded (not with the same "name" as originally used anyway) to clarify his open question. Posted by CSA on 2 January. the diligent and proper operators of a grid will--either manually or automatically--unload another alternator and prime mover (or multiple alternators and prime movers) in order to keep the total generation equal to the total electrical load thereby keeping the grid frequency relatively stable. In other words. . what happens on many grids is that the droop action of many of the prime mover governors will sense the change in speed and will therefore reduce their power output in order to maintain speed (presuming the units are not using GE's version of Pre-Selected Load Control!). So.and LOWER SPD/LOAD functions. If they have a machine operating in Isochronous mode (or several operating in Isochronous Load Sharing. And for the Mechanical Dept. which essentially drives the turbine speed reference up and down just like the RAISE and LOWER functions).... when an operator raises. which is only a portion (sometimes a very minute portion) of the total electrical "load" on a system to which is connected... Sharma. while the unit is operating on a stable grid in parallel with other units at a stable frequency and to increase or decrease the fuel being admitted to the turbine and observe the change in speed while monitoring the "load" being produced by the alternator. another definition of "load" is the amount of the electrical load that is being produced by the prime mover and alternator.. or the load on the motors. (In this scenario. They can only control the amount of power their prime mover and alternator is contributing to support the total electrical load.) But.. electronic. They are normally loaded and unloaded using the RAISE SPD/LOAD and LOWER SPD/LOAD buttons/switches/targets (or the Preselect Load Control enable functions.. Not by throwing on or throwing off blocks of load. then test he has devised is not a valid test per the question. We're still waiting for the frequency readings from the speed pick-ups of the Mark II and Mark V units from your site to see if the two units are running at different speeds while connected to the same grid. which is how units are normally loaded and unloaded around the world. not a revenue-producing machine. by "throwing on" or "throwing off" blocks of electrical load as he wants to do with his test. What we want to know is how much the actual running speed of the turbines at ProcessValue's site change by and for how long when they are loaded and unloaded using the RAISE. not by adding or subtracting electrical load from the electrical system to which the alternators and prime movers are connected. hydraulic.. 2011 . the primary condition itself will not be met for the test. I have yet to encounter a real prime mover and alternator being used to produce electricity that didn't have some kind of governor: electric. if the turbines and alternators at ProcessValues's plants are loaded and unloaded by manipulating the amount of motors and lights and computers connected to them...Speed of Synchronous Generator 6의 33페이지 So. or increases. These are the normal kinds of conditions that operators encounter--not the manipulation of electrical loads (numbers of motors and lights and computers) to change the load of the alternator. some assumptions were made. which is a part of the total electrical load of the grid with which it is being operated in parallel with other prime movers and alternators. As ProcessValue has pointed out. 2011 . Operators refer to the amount of the power their unit is providing to the system as "load"..1:58 am stable grid Process Value's site seems to be in India. read on. Sorry for diverting the thread with an insignificant input.
Load angle limiters b. Modern AVR's are equipped with a. so in effect both the operations specified by you are done. pleading . this is exactly what happens in the steady state condition. v/f limiter f. Thus in effect the plant operators have certain degree of control to the electrical load in the refinery. you can view my site as a bottom up co-generation plant. if one of the turbines trips. won't the refinery continue to run on grid power? (Even if there is some load-shedding scheme in place/required?) " True .There seems to be a lot of talk about how the grid operates. then the frequency isn't going to be at rated.3 : The Grid . if you will see in that the http://www. they will have no effect on the grid whatsoever . One of the main reason why i said devised the test about sudden loading and unloading is because . And we're supposed to be talking about properly acting governors. it is only then we will able able to get an adequate hunting in the generator which will hopefully give the disparity between the turbine frequency and the grid frequency. and also as asked by CSA the experimental data for his quiries. When your plant is connected to the grid.2 : The experiment . And if the power produced by the two machines isn't equal to the power being consumed by the load. Full stop. Governor cannot totally prevent a load hunting it can dampen it and stabilize it as quickly as possible. For transient condition the generator will hunt before setting to the final steady state condition. I have given the motor starting trends . any ways i am presenting the data in three parts go through them and tell me if you are satisfied ( yes .control.this section will explain with vector diagrams the response of the machine in parallel and independent condition.. large motor starting . They help in reducing the extent of the hunting and the reduce the time needed to settle down to a steady state. Not laboratory exercises. for a normal loading and unloading which is done at a constant and controlled rate it will not be possible to "see" or get this experimental data. How well it recovers from the hunting depends on how well the governor is tuned.i did a few experiments to compliment the theory part . This section contains trends . and sudden frequency change the MW output of the machine hunted before it settled down on a steady state value. And we're supposed to be talking about properly acting governors. synchronizing . I have given experimental data on all the above . and trend data in csv files for readers here to take and analyze. if you start a large motor the grid will supply that power until such time as your operators increase the power produced by one or more prime movers to return the export to 2-3 MW.Speed of Synchronous Generator 7의 33페이지 CSA . Power system stabilisers to name a few. and almost all the sites i have worked on are refineries (that is where they send me usually). Your little 25 MW unit isn't likely to have much of an effect on a 2000 MW grid. Inductive current limiter d. The generator prime mover's governor will hunt if not properly tuned. 2011 . yes i know you are a hard man to impress :P ) . the machines in refineries are small. " When your plant is connected to the grid. governors are tuned for and at steady operation and to an extent small signal disturbance. thus a min power export of 2-3 Mw is maintained.8:55 pm The generator doesn't hunt. large motor start in the section .The generator prime mover's governor will hunt if not properly tuned. in all the condition . Even on a grid composed of two 25 MW machines. The question remains: How much does the speed of the turbines at your site change when they are loaded while connected in parallel with a other machines on a grid of relatively stable frequency? Even if the frequency isn't 50. lol . and CSA in your earlier post you have mentioned on the frequency change in a independent machine also. which included cajoling . won't the refinery continue to run on grid power? (Even if there is some load-shedding scheme in place/required?) When you are connected to a sufficiently large grid. Part . transient fault conditions. Posted by CSA on 6 January. In fact. Part .9:47 am " The generator doesn't hunt. Synchronized together. I am spacing my answer into three parts Part . or even a 1000W grid. There are certain restrictions in the operations and certain limitations in the test setup (i have explained them in part 2 of the explanation). or even a 600 MW grid. people who are interested on grid operation can read it as it is an excellent material on grid operation in india and also in general. and also they need to maintain the export so they also have control over the prime mover to increase or decrease the load when under parallel to the grid.1 : The theory . begging :P plant supervisors . Posted by Process Value on 7 January. synchronizing . I am also uploading a document on the operation guidelines and philosophy of the southern gird (India). The frequency of all the machines connected to the grid is the same--because they are synchronous machines. this is to give a real world example of the theoretical conditions explained. and in this regard it is not only the governor of the generator which plays the part. an example would be . if you start a large motor the grid will supply that power until such time as your operators increase the power produced by one or more prime movers to return the export to 2-3 MW. Generator hunting are inevitable due to the nature of the gird and the nature of the loads. one is by fuel change and other is by load change. the AVR is also hugely responsible for maintaining a stable operating generator. I am explaining my view on it.0 Hz. Over excitaion limiters c. In fact. if one of the turbines trips. the speed of both machines is identical and is directly proportional to the frequency. Inside the refinery the operators are the people who give clearance to the HT or large motor starting. how much does it change when you increase the fuel to one of the turbines causing it to accept more of the load on the grid? And for how long does the speed change? 0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful. sudden frequency change in the grid . here the electrical load manipulation works in many ways.so i have went ahead and done a battery of tests. there is no difference between turbine frequency and grid frequency. the frequency change in the independent machine can be done in two ways . the GT predominantly supply electrical power to the section load in the refinery but the GT's are also kept in parallel to the grid as there is a PPA with the state power operator. Capacitive current limiter e. and also if any more clarifications are needed in the explanations given. imagine trying a auto loading of 2-3 Mw on a 22 MW machine in a 48000 MW grid. 2011 . the present site i am working on and also incidentally which happens to be my "parent site" is a refinery. Not laboratory exercises." Not entirely true . but i have done as much as i can .com/thread/1267218529 2012-06-27 .. my experiment was specifically aimed at that.
I will concede that there are differences in acceleration but they are transient differences. Whatever you want to call it: load.000MW was hunting by the order of +/. Posted by CSA on 7 January. But we digress. It is true as pointed by somebody in this forum that a power system doesn't work if there is no frequency deviation. or the grid is "soft") and so the increased torque results in increased amps flowing through the alternator's stator. the speed of both machines is identical and is directly proportional to the frequency.In 2005 our grid system with running capacity of 15. Sound strange right? But it true. the reactive component is driven by the exciter regulator. making it appear that the generator is hunting but it's really the drivers that are hunting. It just converts torque into amps. in non-laboratory conditions (i.control. Loss of synchronism occurs when STA is greater than 180 degree. with your precise measurements of speed differences. the "load" increases. CSA has small problem to understand the argument along this line.9:10 pm With due respect. Namatimangan08. What I'm trying to say is when it comes to load swing (load hunting) system size doesn't matter. yes in case of a machine trips the grid will supply power. which is really subtracting or adding from the load on the grid. so nice to see you check in every now and again. Only the devices that drive the loads connected to the generator can hunt. 2012 . In practice the deviation is kept well below 70 degree. As long as their Synchronism Torque Angle (STA) will not deviate by greater than 180 degree. All of them are prompt to hunting. I deeply miss your input. which will increase the amount of torque being applied to the alternator rotor.. we're not talking about transient conditions.4:58 pm Way to go CSA. CSA has small problem to understand the argument along this line. and in the process can handle some reactive current. Posted by Namatimangan08 on 13 February. hence. the site just ain't the same!! 0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful.) The alternator is driven by the prime mover. I did it again. But. real world conditions). the speed/frequency does not change when the load changes when loading and unloading the units using the governor RAISE and LOWER functions. then the frequency isn't going to be at rated. Again. http://www. 10 RPM. 0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful. because the alternator is SYNCHRONIZED to a larger grid composed of multiple prime movers and alternators all supplying a load composed of motors and lights and computers. "Even on a grid composed of two 25 MW machines. The question was about steady-state loading and unloading and it's effects on the speed of the turbine (and frequency of the alternator) when connected (synchronized) to a grid in parallel with other alternators and their prime movers. when connected to a grid in parallel (synchronized) with other alternators and their prime movers. theoretically their governors can keep them under synchronism. 2011 . And if the power produced by the two machines isn't equal to the power being consumed by the load. the focus is being distracted from the original question.200MW for about 20 minutes.9:23 am > With due respect. What matter is the size of transient load whether its magnitude is big enough to trigger the swing.. Because. when we're talking about "loading a unit" or "unloading a unit" we're talking about using the RAISE SPD/LOAD or LOWER SPD/LOAD targets to increase or decrease the amount of fuel being admitted to the turbine. even in a small micro island it is possible to run the machine at rated frequency.Speed of Synchronous Generator 8의 33페이지 machine is the one which actually takes up the load first (transient) then it reduces.. Please enlighten me. And. from the data it seems very clear: There is no appreciable change in speed or frequency when the unit is loaded or unloaded while connected to a grid in parallel with other prime movers and alternators. again. The prime mover governor can hunt. of which the alternator for which data is being gathered is only one portion. All prime movers (that includes generators) in the system do not recognize what is load. again. (I almost said power! But I did use an exclamation point! Oops. But the generator doesn't hunt. FYI.e. Not including load throw-off or load throw-on. But i do not get your point about power produced by the machines not equal to the power consumed . the increased torque can't cause the speed to increase appreciably (unless the prime mover is very large with respect to the other prime movers on the grid. and the exciter regulator can hunt. which is referred to as "increasing the load. Straightly speaking two generators in parallel most likely are never have the same frequency. So their responses are based on frequency deviation. under steady state condition the power produced by the machines will always be equal to the load power + losses.. Any instability is due to transient conditions being reacted to by the prime mover governor and/or the exciter regulator." The MW meter of the alternator in question will increase in the positive direction. 2012 . Posted by CSA on 14 February. So. In other words.com/thread/1267218529 2012-06-27 .5:03 pm The generator (alternator) is a "stupid" device. 1 RPM. I'm always willing to learn. so exactly how much does the speed differ between synchronous generators connected in parallel to each other and supplying a common load? Please be precise. and all of us." Yes in a grid composed of two 25 MW machines the frequency is identical. Okay. Thanks! Posted by MIKEVI on 14 February. prime mover or generator. a fraction of an RPM. The vector data and the "test" results prove that.. They can only recognize speed. 2012 .
From there on let us raise the generator in front of us by 1MW. How long can ". Inertia is a part of the "infinite grid" too but less understood by many. Find out the total power production from all prime generators attached to the grid. 100hrs.Speed of Synchronous Generator 9의 33페이지 Posted by Namatimangan08 on 16 February. Stable system must comply with energy balance. The demand remains the same. I think it went missing or probably I didn't press submit button. 2012 . 0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful. If we allow time to approach infinity we create vast unbalance between both. 1.2:08 am How long? If no out of step protection. For a specific purpose assuming the grid system has no speed droop.. Look at system frequency. 2012 . How we can prove it? Go to a generator. That is my important point." deal with these 1% frequency deviations between two parallel generators? I'm interested in hearing from other readers and contributors about their experiences between generators operating in synchronism with a grid and other generators when the grid frequency is normal.4:20 pm Namatimangan08. ie. 2012 . Why else would it be necessary to synchronize an incoming generator with other generators? Why not just close the breaker if the frequency of a generator doesn't need to match the frequency of the other generators? Why does a generator being operated in parallel with other generators go into reverse power when the torque input to the generator is reduced below the amount required to keep the generator rotor spinning at synchronous speed/frequency? Please. AVR. At 240 RPM normally the generator will be removed from system whether under electrical over speed or out of step/out of phase/slip pole/loss of synchronism protection. Remember my "controversial" that I have made probably last year of a year before.. It is actually the destination rather than a scientific concept that many people are inclined to believe. Posted by CSA on 19 February. Answer all of the above questions with actionable data. Some of hydro units might be put to partial shutdown generator by protection scheme.001MW. operators' interventions.most medium to big grids. On its own. its frequency remains constant say at 60Hz says for 5 minutes (If you can find one). Posted by Namatimangan08 on 16 February. Therefore frequency remains at 60Hz. 2012 . At 300RPM mechanical over speed protection.000MWh to. we put speed droop.. The demand consumes 15. it does not exist. What happens to the system after 1hr. That's the whole concept of synchronism. infinite grid terminology inclusive all these elements. Roughly about 120 RPM. The demand will not change since that 1MW is hardly change its terminal voltage. not personal thoughts and impressions. Unfortunately. "scientifically there no such thing of infinite grid". Says 15.10:20 am If you agree that transient can exist then you have to agree with permanent frequency difference. But..000MW. Next by the conservation of energy. no AGC and no AVR. Wait it steady state operation is achieved.. it will take as long as it takes until it goes to over speed protections or internal damage has occurred.000hrs? You are going to from the conservation of energy that supply side will increase as time goes. Where is the proof of your contention? 0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful. So the total supply has become 15.. I would say most medium to big > grids have little problem to deal with frequency deviation between two parallel > generator up to 30rpm for a 3000rpm system. For every 1hour the grid supplies 15.com/thread/1267218529 2012-06-27 .000. I know about inertia. Finally. How much deviation from rated speed/frequency do you observe when running at steady state conditions (stable power output)? I do not disagree that load angle/torque angle--whatever someone wants to call it--will differ between generators being operated in parallel with each other. I would say most medium to big grids have little problem to deal with frequency deviation between two parallel generator up to 30rpm for a 3000rpm system. I believe that when loading and unloading generators being operated in parallel with each other that the momentary (on the order of milliseconds) acceleration changes. I also mentioned that if you don't believe with this argument you will find one major problem to explain precisely about how a power system works without violating the conservation of energy. And. From the above example we can't construct a working model for grid if we don't add inertia to the system. We share and we learn. 10hrs. I do not believe that synchronous generators being operated in parallel with other synchronous generators can operate a differing frequencies or speeds (since the two are directly proportional). That indicates the system cannot exist since it cannot comply with energy balance.control.. Infinite bus is NOT a scientific principle.000MWh. It was quite long explanation. The first over speed protection is the unit goes to reverse power. Just to be sure in case electrical over speed fails to deliver the required task. AGC and control to the system. Why? In an attempt for the governor for that unit (Via speed droop) to http://www. if frequency hasn't change then generating power is equal power consumed. In summary. enlighten us. I thought I have posted my true experienced dealing with an isolated system with 4 Diesel Gen sets that almost never able to get their frequency equal longer than 5 seconds.5:36 am Your welcome mate. We introduce the physical parameter that is called inertia. Provide the mathematical formulae to support your position.... You wrote: > To provide direct answer to your question. Namatinamgan08. To provide direct answer to your question. We put systematic method to control. Then only the working principle a grid system can be explained flawless. Posted by Namatimangan08 on 20 February.
Its angle may be displaced by certain radians relative to the rotating magnetic field. Let me explain further.snip ---There are two kinds of torques that we are talking about. The magnitude of d2A/dt is determined by the the value of J. as I mentioned before there is no place for the what so called "locked into sychronism" in the equations.control. The governor will try to dis-accelerate the rotor by reducing the torque. You don't need anything more that those equations to describe how a power system works dynamically whether under steady state or transient.. The shaft for the prime mover will not accelerate. This is similar to infinite grid concept. kgm2 If you have 20 units in parallel you have to write 20 similar equations to describe dynamics for each units. I would say most medium to big >> grids have little problem to deal with frequency deviation between two parallel >> generator up to 30rpm for a 3000rpm system. This additional energy will be used up for (1) increase d2A/dt (2) increase dA/dt and (3) changing the A.. CSA wrote: > How long can "... The higher its percentage set point the slower the droop to provide frequency damping. If feel doubt about this explanation. But it meaning is not the same as many of us wanted to believe. Posted by CSA on 20 February. I will tell you the story about it if the plant owner manages to solve this problem later. Posted by Namatimangan08 on 20 February. There is such thing that is called locked into synchronism. One part is opposing torque that is produced by the demand.. Posted by Namatimangan08 on 20 February.. 0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful. let you try to explain how a generator under parallel operation can go over speed but the grid remains intact..9Hz as far as grid operation is concern is not similar. Energy is added to the rotating grid. Says 100MW at 60Hz. If Tm> Te then the LHS is not zero. not going to move faster and also not going to change its displacement angle relative to rotating magnetic field.180 degree apart. 0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful. Note that 100MW at 60 Hz and 100MW at 59. Finally it generator turns to reverse power. Successfully tuned means that in the event of calculated loss of generation (or demand load rejection) the controllers and the J constants for all generators are able to keep synchronism torque angle for all generators to stay within +/.. Let us understand system dynamics from Newton's laws: Swing Equations for parallel generators are as follows: J (d2A/dt) + c(dA/dt) +kA Where = Tm-Te J = Moment of inertia (Prime mover + generator + others) c= Damping constant k= Stiffness constant A= rotor angle from stationary point of reference d/dt = time derivative Tm= output torque Te= opposing torque. The other part is traction torque that is produced by the dynamic of prime mover and generator. But if the unit is out of synchronism already no amount of reducing torque can bring it into synchronism again. So the LHS is zero.Calibration of the unit output so that the load it dispatch is "housed" at predetermined frequency. This is especially true for the units that are put under AGC frequency control.direct intervention of the input to prime mover. To conclude. 2012 .com/thread/1267218529 2012-06-27 . 2012 .4:00 am Ok. The latest one was 2 months ago. kA in controlled via manual intervention. When they are in parallel they are governed by those equations." deal with these 1% frequency > deviations between two parallel generators? > I'm interested in hearing from other readers and contributors about their experiences between generators operating > in synchronism with a grid and other generators when the grid frequency is normal. Surprisingly.10:41 am http://www. "locked into synchronism" means all the above control requirements have been successfully tuned to deal with steady state (Tm-Te=0)or transient load changes(Tm-Te) is not zero. The bigger J is the smaller its d2A/dt The magnitude of the dA/dt is regulated by the droop via its droop set point. How much deviation from > rated speed/frequency do you observe when running at steady state conditions (stable power output)? ---.most medium to big grids. Seeing is believing. 2012 . Which one you are referring too? All the while I was referring to the dynamics of prime mover and generator.6:48 am > Namatimangan08 wrote: >> To provide direct answer to your question. Equal frequency is not a constraint that is required by the dynamic equations. Its shaft will continue to accelerate since there is no opposing torque from the load to slow its frequency.Speed of Synchronous Generator 10의 33페이지 ensure it will not go faster than the average frequency. BTW: I have seen many times that two parallel generators did not have the same electrical frequency. It was not needed. Steady state means Tm-Te=0. Otherwise you don't need to have 20 swing equations for 20 units.
" To conclude. "locked into synchronism" means all the above control requirements have been successfully tuned to deal with steady state (Tm-Te=0)or transient load changes(Tm-Te) is not zero. once connected to a grid you can do two things with the generator. Thus when the generator is supplying power to the grid it is leading the reference grid bus. suppose that you are mad enough you have manual fuel/steam control you increase the turbine output again . 0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful. Are the two generators operating independently off the grid or are they connected to the grid? If they are operating independently then there is a possibility of frequency oscillation.9 Hz versus another unit at 60. " from what i get from the statement is that a generator connected to a grid can go to "overspeed" conditions even when grid frequency is within operating limits. droop-loadcontrol or in iso load sharing scheme. increase its output by controlling the prime mover or reduce its output by controlling the prime mover. Otherwise you don't need to have 20 swing equations for 20 units.. I will maintain that a properly regulated--or "tuned" to use your terminology--will result in all synchronous generators operating in synchronism (in other words: at the same frequency/synchronous speed). the generator output will decrease and eventually will trip in reverse power. Case 1 .com/thread/1267218529 2012-06-27 .99 but will not be at a constant frequency deviation say 50. this case is possible only in laboratory conditions. meaning I wilted under the stares. " deviations in frequency is what is responsible for the load angle change.Increase turbine power when connected to the grid you go on increasing power the generator output will increase till it reaches max output.control. once a new load angle is reached the speed of both the grid and the generator remains the same. i return to control. Overspeed can happen because of load throw off not the other way around.1 for the entire operation. If the two machines are put in droop they will not hunt ( equal droop or not). Here is my take on the situation. that might be changing as this site seems to be attracting more inquiring minds from that part of the world looking for explanations to unusual operating conditions. its Xd value is chosen in such a way that its load angle does not exceed 50-55 deg at the max output at the rated "terminal voltage" and at "minimal excitation" point of the AVR corresponding to full load. when generator is designed . the machine may swing at 50.01 and 49.. the generator will load . I will tell you the story about it if the plant owner manages to solve this problem later. The latest one was 2 months ago. when the power goes down the load angle decreases and decreases and eventually will lag the grid bus reference thus receiving power from the grid . Argument 2 . 2012 . Namatimangan08 Arguments Argument 1 . i am quite sure that there will not be a " constant frequency " difference between the grid and the generator.definitely possible but a rare occurrence) when the grid remains at stable frequency. Argument 3 . This usually happens due to a badly tuned iso-load sharing scheme. When a generator is connected and it has a governor ( or even no governor as in lab conditions) it will never go to overspeed conditions under small signal disturbances. back to the good old days i guess. Just a few months ago I had the opportunity to visit a grid control headquarters for a very large grid which is well-operated and famously stable.Decrease turbine power when connected to the grid. but this is about the swing equations you have given is for transient stability analysis not small signal analysis. that is plain not possible. Governor mode Machine 1 droop droop iso iso load control Machine 2 droop load control droop iso load control Remarks stable stable load will hunt depending on the iso setpoint and current frq needs load sharing scheme .180 degree apart. You are now saying that a generator might be at 59. Seeing is believing. it means that the load angle has gone beyond its stability limit (theoretically 90 deg . AGC and PSS uses the swing equations to various degrees to control but though it is certain that the frequency hunting takes place . http://www. and leave the transient.Speed of Synchronous Generator 11의 33페이지 Namatimangan08. here is a chart to explain what can happen in islanded operation.BTW: I have seen many times that two parallel generators did not have the same electrical frequency. ie if the gird is operating at 50Hz . otherwise will lead to hunting disaster again This is the reason if you will see almost all of the micro grids operate in either full droop . there will be transient speed differences when the system settled down to its new load angle but otherwise it will remain the same with some minimal hunting.0 Hz (or 0. Posted by Process Value on 20 February. It's very confusing. This is plain wrong. Case 2 . in this condition only the load angle of the generator increases not the speed. when you previously said a machine could operate at 10% difference. "the fundamental concept in AC power system is that the bus giving power must be leading to the bus receiving power.3:53 pm Grid and Grid Wow. practically it will be around 80 due to the presence of resistance in the system).com to see a old thread popped up :) and with a raging discussion going on. "The whole phasor diagram in AC machine analysis is based on the fact that the two phasors representing the grid and the generator in this case have ZERO RELATIVE SPEED ie they are rotating in the same speed. Successfully tuned means that in the event of calculated loss of generation (or demand load rejection) the controllers and the J constants for all generators are able to keep synchronism torque angle for all generators to stay within +/. " I agree to the above .and thus the reverse power trip. let you try to explain how a generator under parallel operation can go over speed but the grid remains intact. The looks I received were wilting. Equal frequency is not a constraint that is required by the dynamic equations. I do not believe that any generator connected to the grid has ever tripped on overspeed (tripped on pole slipping yes . you go on decreasing turbine output . its load angle will increase and after some time when it exceeds the max stable load angle it will go to pole slipping condition. and I inquired about generators operating at different frequencies on the grid."If feel doubt about this explanation. Actually. Pole slipping does not mean that the the generator is overspeeding . I think I'll stick with my "problematic" and simplistic understanding of the basic fundamentals of AC power systems. freakish off-frequency operating characteristics for others. Realizing that you probably work in a certain Asian sub-continental region of the world famous for lack of frequency control and poor grid frequency regulation you may indeed see more unusual circumstances than many readers here.167%).
9:34 pm > Argument 1 .2 hz for er well power deficit ones (best example would be India.. I told them what to do to solve the problem entirely.4 Hz for stable grids (UK and Canada comes to mind) and +.control. it will be about +. In every grid there will be inter area oscillation.5kV to 11.2kV." deal with these 1% frequency deviations between two parallel generators? well i take it that you mean "two areas" rather than two generators. But your grid system won't last longer than 24 hours without governors. Load during over speed protection was triggered 16 MW. Theoretical stability limit 90 deg or 180 deg? Let me check it out. The same unit tripped off for the same reason a week later. Until last week they managed to load the unit up to 19MW (max 28MW).com/thread/1267218529 2012-06-27 . Otherwise I can't proceed with my other task that had little thing to do with that tripping. I helped the station technicians with trouble shooting after the fifth one. It can't happen in the lab because you control a few parameters that are crucial. it means that the load angle has gone beyond its stability limit (theoretically 90 deg .definitely possible but a rare occurrence) when the grid remains at stable frequency. It just happened to one of our client's power station in January this year. Number of times 4 times in less that 24 hours.0. The last tripping made such problem became my problem. Reason : Over speed protection electrical Load : 16MW Frequency: 445 RPM Rated frequency: 428 RPM (50 Hz electrical) Derived information: From units monitoring system that has scanning rate that can be made as short as 0. But that one required lead time to do. It happens in real world. " 15 January 2012 Place : SJPL power station (Not its real name obviously) Capacity = 2 X 29MW Type = Hydro Number of tripping 4 times in 24 hours.. Posted by Namatimangan08 on 20 February. I was forced to help them with trouble shooting. ha ha ha well. http://www. The protection scheme has to isolate the unit. Statement 2 . I do not believe that any generator connected to the grid has ever tripped on overspeed (tripped on pole slipping yes . My point is just opposite. > > > > when generator is designed . Pole slipping does not mean that the the generator is overspeeding .Realizing that you probably work in a certain Asian sub-continental region of the world famous for lack of frequency control and poor grid frequency regulation you may indeed see more unusual circumstances than many readers here. But any attempt to raise the load event by 0. the oscillations occur due to frequency deviations of about 0. No."If feel doubt about this explanation. The problem was still there.02 Hz or 0. Actually. that might be changing as this site seems to be attracting more inquiring minds from that part of the world looking for explanations to unusual operating conditions. What happens in the laboratory can happen in real world. > from what i get from the statement is that a generator connected to a grid can go to "overspeed" conditions even when > grid frequency is within operating limits. We have little problem here.Speed of Synchronous Generator 12의 33페이지 CSA's quiries Query 1 . > Case 1 ..1.How long can ". RPM 445 RPM. practically it will be around 80 due to the presence of resistance in the system). But the safe limit is always below 70-80 degrees. Next I told them the solution was at best can reduce number of tripping once in 24 hours.000MW. Almost every time without miss. let you try to explain how a generator under parallel operation can > go over speed but the grid remains intact. As far as frequency regulation is considered. Rated 428 RPM. Over speed protection stage 1. Reducing the load was not leaded to the same outcome. I didn't say slipping pole can lead to over speeding. sigh) 0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful. The last one for that day happened at 2130Hrs. increase its output by controlling the > prime mover or reduce its output by controlling the prime mover. In reality the grid has to response to parameters that it has little control over them. wide area oscillations as far as i have seen has been for about 0. My temporary recommendation was to reduce the terminal voltage from 11. This is plain wrong.5MW would have ended up with over speed trip. there will be transient speed differences when the > system settled down to its new load angle but otherwise it will remain the same with some minimal hunting...). > > > > When a generator is connected and it has a governor ( or even no governor as in lab conditions) it will never go to overspeed conditions under small signal disturbances.5 seconds.2-0. Over speed protection operated for any one unit while the remaining grid operates under normal frequency indicates that slip pole has become intolerable anymore. Already answered above. Well understood.most medium to big grids. > "or even no governor as in lab conditions) it will never go to overspeed conditions under small signal disturbances" That is correct.2 Hz during a severe sustained fault in one area. These are very low frequency load hunting due to the relative change in the speed between two areas which are synchronised and connected by tie lines. we thrive in adversity don't we . 2012 .01 hz not 0. > once connected to a grid you can do two things with the generator. This is not the only case but this is the latest one. There should be no argument around this statement.. it will be present in the most stable of grids too. its Xd value is chosen in such a way that its load angle does not exceed 50-55 deg at the max output at the rated "terminal voltage" and at "minimal excitation" point of the AVR corresponding to full load. The size grid my client serves is about 17.5 hz.Increase turbine power when connected to the grid > you go on increasing power the generator output will increase till it this case is possible only in laboratory conditions. Next time you visit a grid control station of a ISO(independent system operator) or a Load dispatch center you can ask about interarea oscillations .
" The theoretical limit of steady state operation is 90 deg. Finally. One of the posters here is trying to conduct study on the same subject. you are absolutely right. The latest one was 2 months ago. I do agree with you about small system analysis. If the input is tuned to no load condition." To conclude. To be precise what can happen and what cannot. The size grid my client serves is about 17. now a days a double lens scheme which measures the generator impedance is used for pole slipping determination. > Case 2 . that mean the power generated is equal to synchronism power.3:04 pm The grid again ha ha ha nice to have a good discussion :) The contention .1 for the entire operation. "the fundamental concept in AC power system is that the bus giving power must be leading to the bus receiving power.com/thread/1267218529 2012-06-27 . It has to go through windage resistance. the generator output will decrease and eventually will trip in reverse power. I have answered this question above. But once it has gone past 180 deg. the system is actually infinite. To summarize in general there is nothing wrong with the assumption that all phasors have zero relative speed.Speed of Synchronous Generator 13의 33페이지 What do you think has happened to the unit? Hopefully I can tell you later after the problem is solved. Overspeed can happen because of load throw off not the other way around. As long as no slip pole takes place. vibration. There was another one I had come across about 2 years ago. Relative to small signal analysis. to ensure steady state load change is smaller than 1% or to ensure transient stability limit cannot exceed 5% of the area (system?)peak demand since the speed droop response & system inertia have certain characteristics for them to work best. From mechanical point of view this is how reverse power works. > Argument 3 . We have little problem here. But the safe limit is always below 70-80 degrees.control. If the power generated reduces below the syncronism power. If the two machines are put in droop they will not hunt ( equal droop or not).etc. but pole sipping means that the load angle has gone past 180deg. But that is not only the way you can explain it because the physics do not belong to electrical engineers alone.180 degree apart. The argument is well understood.. > > > > Are the two generators operating independently off the grid or are they connected to the grid? If they are operating independently then there is a possibility of frequency oscillation. Thus when the generator is supplying power to the grid it is leading the reference grid bus. I will tell you the story about it if the plant owner manages to > solve this problem later. 2012 . But slip pole is actually throwing the load.Decrease turbine power when connected to the grid. You are talking from electrical point of view. i am quite sure that there will not be a " constant frequency " difference between the grid and the generator.. The Incident "It just happened to one of our client's power station in January this year. But when it comes to load swing study. More towards system fundamental. For example. Posted by Process Value on 21 February. You can still assume they have zero relative speeds until your protection says the other way around. > > > > > you go on decreasing turbine output . I am not talking about small signal analysis. " deviations in frequency is what is responsible for the load angle change. when the power goes down the load angle decreases and decreases and eventually will lag the grid bus reference thus receiving power from the grid . Equal frequency is not a constraint that is required by the dynamic equations. We decide the system under consideration.Note: to certain extent I'm also the believer to "locked to synchronism" concept. the unit turns to reverse power.01 and 49. Successfully tuned means that in the event of calculated loss of generation (or demand load rejection) the controllers and the J constants for all generators are able to keep synchronism torque angle for all generators to stay within +/. then you can't make the same assumption. max value at 90 deg). The truth is there are not equal.BTW: I have seen many times that two parallel generators did not have the same electrical frequency. (P = EV/Xd sin delta.and thus the reverse power trip. The gross output to plant bus is zero. during transient swings during fault the generator can go beyond the 90 deg limit and come back (equal area criterion).9% accurate. > > > > "The whole phasor diagram in AC machine analysis is based on the fact that the two phasors representing the grid and the generator in this case have ZERO RELATIVE SPEED ie they are rotating in the same speed. but this is about the swing equations you have given is for transient stability analysis not > small signal analysis. To remain in synchronism a unit has to generate minimum output. The idea of load swing study is to see how the torque angle for each parallel generator moves relative to rotating magnetic field. > > > > > > Argument 2 ."Theoretical stability limit 90 deg or 180 deg? Let me check it out. 0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful. Otherwise you don't need to have 20 swing equations for 20 units. " > I agree to the above . bearing loss. I know the concept of making equal relative speed for normal the phasors representation. It is a part of making the grid to become infinite. here is a chart to explain what can happen in islanded operation.99 but will not be at a constant frequency deviation say 50. the machine may swing at 50. ie if the gird is operating at 50Hz . pole slipping protection gets activated. We make the assumption. Thus it has similar impact. once a new load angle is reached the speed of both the grid and the generator remains the same. http://www. > > > > AGC and PSS uses the swing equations to various degrees to control but though it is certain that the frequency hunting takes place . This usually happens due to a badly tuned iso-load sharing scheme. that is plain not possible. > Seeing is believing. When the pole of a unit is slipped electrical load will no longer producing opposing torque on the unit. "locked into synchronism" means all the above control requirements have been successfully tuned to deal with steady state (Tm-Te=0)or transient load changes(Tm-Te) is not zero. the generator will import the current since terminal voltage remains the same and it wants to remain remain in synchonism. From the practical point of view deviation that has lower than 70 degree STA can be assumed to have zero relative speed.000MW. It is 99.
I helped the station technicians with trouble shooting after the fifth one. I came to the same conclusion as yours. But I didn't think that reason alone could cause it to go over speed that often almost at every loads. If the input is tuned to no load condition. Next I told them the solution was at best can reduce number of tripping once in 24 hours. this could be a main water valve problem.000MW. Over excite + poor flow regulation sound convincing enough to make it happened. but its been a long time since i have worked in hydro plants. as a solemn electrical engineer i want the world to be that way :P lol. But any attempt to raise the load event by 0. What was the the actual RPM? It should be 445+17 =462 RPM. The pilot/main valve arrangement for low head can be a little quirky. the unit turns to reverse power. there is a sudden inrush of water that is causing a transient speed rise. thus tripping the turbine.4:05 pm > The Incident "It just happened to one of our client's power station in January > this year. Now they keep that unit load to 15MW now. 0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful. The gross output to plant bus is zero. but in my opinion this is a case of bad really setting and unusual circumstances. The size grid my client serves is about 17. vibration. it didn't matter much. " First of all wow. To remain in synchronism a unit has to generate minimum output. I told them what to do to solve the problem entirely. Traditionally it has been lower for hydro units (8-10%). so in my opinion 104% electrical overspeed trip is kinda er . Load during over speed protection was triggered 16 MW. secondly i have a few things to point out.snip ---I think you have an idea about what was going on.. the droop is usually kept at 3-5% and the electrical overspeed vale about it. are the speed in both the generator protection relay and turbine governor matching ?? 3. this is what i would do 1.control.. The problem was still there. You got it right here. Almost every time without miss. When tripping relay was triggered.com/thread/1267218529 2012-06-27 . Number of times 4 times in less that 24 hours. That was the other reason.57 RPM. ( if not this has to be a very special low cost turbine ?? ) 2. Bias error of its SSG by -17 RPM. but in my humble opinion synchronous power is a electrical concept. but i agree to the concept above. Rated 428 RPM. when you increase the load. Increase the really setting after consulting with the turbine OEM. It has to go through windage resistance. BTW the turbine type is vertical Pelton with 2 pairs of nozzles configuration. but in my opinion this is a case of bad really setting and unusual circumstances. The argument is well understood. I was puzzled why out of step alarm did not operated. there is a sudden inrush of water that is causing a transient speed rise. ie no change in flow for a control period and heavy flow for another. that mean the power generated is equal to synchronism power. All the 5 tripping events were the same. this could be a main water valve problem. thus tripping the turbine. RPM 445 RPM. to mechanical guys they the power is either positive or negative . From mechanical point of view this is how reverse power works. which is am sure is possible up to at least 108%. but if you ask me it is within limits as 4% swing in speed though unusual is not unheard off in transient load changes. > Over speed protection stage 1. That was the reason why I recommended the owner to reduce its terminal voltage since the generator was extremely over excite due to false SSG signal. Rated 428 RPM. You got the 8% over speed set point that you want since the machine has rated RPM 428. check which is initiating the trip ?? the generator electrical overspeed really or the governor overspeed trip ? (governor usually has multiple overspeed protections. I do not understand how reducing the terminal voltage helps this situation.Speed of Synchronous Generator 14의 33페이지 Over speed protection stage 1. is this is double regulated kaplan ? does this have the pilot/main valve arrangement for input water flow. Load during over > speed protection was triggered 16 MW. Reducing the load was not leaded to the same outcome. The machine has big problem with its nozzles.Note: to certain extent I'm also the believer to "locked to synchronism" concept. They have to change the SSG before we move to the second one. It voltage was close to 8% higher than the machine just next to it. etc. i am just taking a guess here. " ha ha ha well.5MW would have ended up with over speed trip. But i am curious to know about what you find about the hydro power plant though :).2kV. The actual tripping was over speed. The problem is still there since they have yet to change the SSG. So that was at least of the problems that we know at the moment.. from what i see. Until last week they managed to load the unit up to 19MW (max 28MW). can you confirm that the speed of the grid was only 50Hz when the tripping took place ?? The discussion . sometimes the electrical overspeed measurement is also used in turbine control for fast valving). then for thermal units (110-112% ) and for diesel units 115% (they are more rugged i guess but that is the only prime mover when i have seen them at 115%). 2012 . shocking. What do you think has happened to the unit? Hopefully I can tell you later after the problem is solved. My temporary recommendation was to reduce the terminal voltage from 11. But as far as our trouble shooting was concern. This is very very unusual. RPM 445 RPM. Why? The Speed Sensor Generator (SSG) for that machine has constant bias error -17 RPM. when you increase the load. > > > > > from what i see. from the data i see that the machine is a low speed kaplan / francis turbine operating at low head. The same unit tripped off for the same reason a week later. Posted by Namatimangan08 on 22 February. If the power generated reduces below the synchronism power. but in the above case the electrical overspeed trip is at 104%." You are talking from electrical point of view.5kV to 11. So when the machine tripped most likely its actual RPM was 462RPM. > can you confirm that the speed of the grid was only 50Hz when the tripping took place ?? http://www. the rest i believe has no contention. but if you ask me it is within limits as 4% swing in speed though unusual is not unheard off in transient load changes. what is the time interval if any for the stage one overspeed protection. machine RPM was 445 RPM as given by the plant monitoring system. It was the only indicator that operated. But that one required lead time to do. Finally. The over speed protection is kept at 108% to 115%. But that is not only the way you can explain it because the physics do not belong to electrical engineers alone. I helped the station technicians with trouble shooting after the fifth one. FYI I was visiting the plant only just now. Number of times 4 times in less that 24 > hours. bearing loss. the generator will import the current since terminal voltage remains the same and it wants to remain remain in synchronism. ---. They planned to change the SSG later.
2012 . We could read it from the plot. I don't know for sure. Those protections are standard protections for any any grid system in the world. You are now saying that a generator might be at 59. General rule that we know is something that we can put together can be teared apart. and leave the transient. but this does NOT > mean the machines are operating at "different frequencies". vector diagrams. without slippage. One of the parameters that we monitor is torque angle between inter inter connectors. there will be an angular displacement between the two fields. All parallel generators can have different frequencies.. As I show you the swing equations for parallel generators are independent from each other. We (my company) have installed one. That doens't mean it is okay to operate the generators even at 0. I have little problem to share his position. induction motors must have a different internal electrical frequency than the grid . Two entirely difference subjects. and this angle does not have to be constant.2 Hz.this is how they generate torque. Actually there are two subjects that being discussed here. Same for induction generators. We call the system Wide Area Monitoring System (WAMS). The looks I received were wilting. 2012 .167%). Meanwhile the droops are tuned in such a manner that such deviation will never been allowed to go unchecked. But that is not my point. This is I think CSA position. In contrast. If you disagree. So the loads cannot follow the system frequency since it does not exist in the first place. Thank you for your inputs anyway. If you want to see it you have to install a system. freakish off-frequency operating characteristics for others. > Just a few months ago I had the opportunity to visit a grid control headquarters for a very large grid which > is well-operated and famously stable. > I think I'll stick with my "problematic" and simplistic understanding of the basic fundamentals > of AC power systems. if they are synchronous machines. whatever. if its rotor is locked in synchronism.2:05 pm Synchronous machines remain in synchronism because the angular frequency of the rotating magnetic field in the stator matches the angular frequency of the magnetic field in the rotor. partial shutdown generator or even over speed protection operated. You are right.0 Hz (or 0. This does not change the fact that their frequencies can deviate since the governing equation for each unit in the system is not the same. that another 2-pole synchgen can rotate 3597 times in that minute? Or 3607 times? It doesn't matter if your "grid" is 2 machines or 2000. That includes in your country.Speed of Synchronous Generator 15의 33페이지 Within +/. As many others have said.6:48 am EhGC wrote: > Synchronous machines remain in synchronism because the angular frequency of the rotating magnetic field > in the stator matches the angular frequency of the magnetic field in the rotor. You can stay in front of the grid monitoring panels for 20 years. and I inquired about generators operating at different frequencies on > the grid. Each of them swings according to dynamic properties of its own even though the opposing force http://www. In our country frequency regulation is not excellently done. that might be changing as this site seems to be attracting more inquiring minds from that part of the world looking for explanations to unusual operating conditions. and this angle does not have to be constant. But what is system then? System does not have any frequency. when you previously said a machine could operate at 10% difference. there > will be an angular displacement between the two fields. Here is my argument. Posted by Namatimangan08 on 20 February. I have little problem to believe the loads cannot rotate faster or slower than "system frequency". What is so special about the grid system under synchronism that only put together by the magnetic forces? What makes them cannot be separated at all? 1 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful. Here's another take on it: "Frequency" is simply a count of some repetitive behavior in a period of time.control. meaning I wilted under the stares. let's count: a 2-pole synchronous generator on a 60 Hz system rotates once for every cycle. Scanning time is as short as 500ms. Probably we are not in disagreement at all. Posted by Namatimangan08 on 23 February.9 Hz versus another unit at 60. Actually.. As many others have said. and prove that. Some of the times one or two units can go to reverse power. We are talking about fundamental rather than specific method used in any country. then each sees the same number of electrical cycles/second and therefore their shaft speeds are a function of the number of generator poles and system frequency. then please apply the same math. System frequency is in facts the resultant frequency of all generators in parallel. so in one minute will rotate 3600 times..0. What we know for sure what really exist is generators frequencies..5RPM difference.7:48 pm > > > > Realizing that you probably work in a certain Asian sub-continental region of the world famous for lack of frequency control and poor grid frequency regulation you may indeed see more unusual circumstances than many readers here. The difference is called slip. I thought I have frequency data at one snapshot for various locations that showed they were not equal. 0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful. How is it possible that. My main argument is. It's very confusing. Even mechanical coupling between two generators can be cut into two pieces if enough torsion is applied. So instead of arguing about frequency. No way you can see such deviation if don't want to see it. > > > > I will maintain that a properly regulated--or "tuned" to use your terminology--will result in all synchronous generators operating in synchronism (in other words: at the same frequency/synchronous speed). the main operational objective is still keeping the frequencies for all parallel generators to be equal. Let show us mathematically how two parallel generators can be "locked" into synchrorism the way you think that it works. but this does NOT mean the machines are operating at "different frequencies".com/thread/1267218529 2012-06-27 . Posted by EhGC on 21 February. Size doesn't matter. 0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful... the driven gear of a 2:1 gear train might rotate 98 times for every 200 revolutions of the driving gear. 2012 .
snip ---Namatimangan08 wrote: > I have little problem to believe the loads cannot rotate faster or slower than "system frequency". I have little problem to share his position. What we know for sure what really exist > is generators frequencies. the fact that each generator swings differently due to small perturbation can be ignored. Thanks. System frequency is in facts the resultant frequency of all generators in parallel.2kV. > This is I think CSA position. Governor badly hunting and its terminal voltage was very high relative to the system voltage. http://www. 2012 . The t/generator tripped off when the operator tried to raise load just after synchronization. it is important to factor it. Most of the time it is ignored. 2012 .. Then I told them that. 2012 . Posted by Frank Sun on 23 February. breaker or overspeed? We have conclusively concluded that over speed came first. breaker or overspeed? When I first explained my finding to one of the plant technicians he suggested the same question. became zero. current etc. He denied it by saying that 445 RPM (it was 462 RPM actually due to zero bias error of -17RPM for the speed sensor) was obvious scenario when a t/generator trips off.. Just looked at the unit next to it we knew that. 2012 . All parallel generators can have different frequencies. the fact that each generator swings differently due to small > perturbation can be ignored. Here are the parameters -the fifth tripping of the day. For the 6th start. we managed to keep the t/generator until our team completed our work for that day.11:23 am To reduce possibility of slip pole. 0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful. Each of them swings according to dynamic properties of its own even though the opposing force (demand load) from that tries to slow them down is well distributed via accurate droop setting. 0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful. I was merely a contractor to them. We came together to the frequency-load-time plots. the best chance for them to not to stay back that long was to reduce its terminal voltage from 11. We could learn sequence of events up to 500ms frequency. As I show you the swing equations for parallel generators are independent from each other.. After the fifth tripping I told the plant staff that they had to make sure that they could put the t/generator on bars for my team even that meant they had to stay back for the next 24 hours. breaker or overspeed? ---.Speed of Synchronous Generator 16의 33페이지 (demand load) from that tries to slow them down is well distributed via accurate droop setting. They repaired here and there then try to put it back on bars. So the loads cannot follow the system > frequency since it does not exist in the first place. Posted by Namatimangan08 on 23 February..1-0. No. At least I could see two reasons why over speed relay was triggered.2:22 pm >Which trip first.7:03 pm > Which trip first. We moved the reference line for the plots slowly to the point just before the t/g tripped off.com/thread/1267218529 2012-06-27 .7:47 pm Can you plz make your posts simple and easy so that we can understand easily. Just after that load. it is important to factor it. But nobody took it serious. Posted by Namatimangan08 on 26 February. > > > > Here is my argument. voltage.control. So nothing much I could do to make them listen to me. But for a transient stability study > due to major disturbances. > But what is system then? System does not have any frequency. System frequency was almost flat at 50.. Just before the tripping system frequency had increased by less than 0.. But for a transient stability study due to major disturbances. During the fourth tripping I had already advised them to reduce the generator voltage for that unit. Ravi 0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful. 0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful.2Hz. Posted by ravi on 25 February. So all of us went home earlier than 24 hours. The time stem can be set as small as 500ms. Posted by Namatimangan08 on 24 February. They had promised us to put on the t/generator for my team work. For a steady state stability study. Most of the time it is ignored. He was not questioning my finding.. Load = 16 MW RPM = 445 RPM Trip on over speed protection. The t/generator tripped again for the same reason a week later..00 Hz. I understood that the turbine tripped on overspeed when the breaker was still closed? What is your justification in asking to reduce the terminal voltage to avoid overspeed trip.5kV to 11. > For a steady state stability study. 2012 .10:15 am Which trip first.
it only rotates a certain angle before it "hooks up" (to use a modern term) again. Posted by Bruce Durdle on 23 February. and the more poles the smaller the value. the actual speed differences across the system would not be very great. on an operating system. The basic model assumed initially that all rotating plant was lumped together . Posted by CSA on 23 February. they typically don't run for very long before catastrophic damage occurs because of heat and imbalance and loss of air gap. The model was reasonably accurate and gave results quite consistent with the transients actually observed. On a 50 Hz system that's 0. Bruce Durdle. we are waiting for your valuable posting Part3 (grid operation document) (Ref. i. 1 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful. changing the terminal voltage will change the generator torque angle.7:58 pm Thank you. No passive speed pickups? No active speed pickups? No keyphasors? The official name that the plant operators call the sensor is SSG.com/thread/1267218529 2012-06-27 . the frequency fell to a minimum over about 4 seconds then recovered through governor action over the next 20 seconds. while the power angle for the machines varied significantly. As a conclusion. No passive speed pickups? No active speed pickups? No keyphasors? I will admit I haven't seen everything and don't have the knowledge about power system transients that many here do... It is a plain speed sensor. or Speed Sensor Generator.. On a major upset.say about 0. with an allowance for load inertia. Posted by Namatimangan08 on 26 February.small enough to have significant excursions from the nominal 50 Hz. This fictitious hydro unit obviously has some extremely unusual speed sensing equipment.. Realistically. The system frequency under varying load conditions was found from a differential equation based on the overall power balance. This was with a predominantly hydro system . generator voltage? But then every body here agree that the generator load is raised. i. The hydro unit I was talking about actually was trying to go to out of synchronism. it could last for 1 week. I was so hoping you would weigh in on this topic (I almost asked you specifically for your experience in an earlier post!). Can you see looking from electrical point of view we have only one governing parameter that control the load flow. They are locked in synchronism by the magnetic forces at work in the generator. In other words. As a result. Later I had to tune to their terminology.6th Jan post) http://www.and these differences will exist for only a short time. A "generator" being used to monitor speed? That went out with vacuum > tubes..so the system inertia was the total inertia (reflected to 3000 rpm) of all connected generators. I developed a transient model of the New Zealand power system . But I do know that magnetic forces are very powerful and as long as the units aren't under-excited or lose excitation and fail to trip on loss of excitation they will not run faster or slower than the frequency of the grid with which they are connected.mechanical power in from the generator . if excitation is completely lost and the unit becomes an induction generator. even if it slips again. an idling machine with load angle zero would get to 90 degrees in 4 seconds . Posted by ASHISH on 17 February.13 %.times will be different with slower responding thermal generation. well. torque angle for any generator can only be drawn by knowing its voltage.e.Speed of Synchronous Generator 17의 33페이지 Put aside over differences in "loss of synchronism" issue. speed) determined by the number of poles of the generator.but no the system as > a whole will not lose synchronism. 0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful. regardless of the frequency of the system. It's the forces at work when hooking-up and slipping that cause the mechanical damage. And that means that unless there are some extremely unusual transients that no single generator can go significantly faster or slower than any other generator--not by more than a value (angle.control. So yes you will see changes in speed across the system . 2012 . but they won't let the unit run at frequency (speed) significantly higher or lower than the frequency to which they are connected. Because of the topology of the NZ system (a relatively compact central core with some large outlying generation on the end of long lines) the main interest (and the reason for the model) centered on the behaviour of individual generators or stations swinging around the central core. Not generator to sense speed.02 % . So each station was then modelled independently as an entity with its own individual power balance . However. 24 hours. 0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful.but no the system as a whole will not lose synchronism.5:25 am ---.e.. Even if it's just two single synchronous generators connected in parallel they will not run at different speeds. A "generator" being used to monitor speed? That went out with vacuum tubes.electrical power out depending on the load angle and reactance of the transmission line connecting it to the central core. SSG. After all. 2012 . very much. 2012 . Even if a generator slips a pole. In the absolute extreme case.that's 1/4 of a rev in 4 seconds or 1/16 rev/s. Actually I referred it as Generator Speed Sensor when I explained what was going on to them after the fourth or fifth tripping.snip ---> This fictitious hydro unit obviously has some extremely unusual speed sensing > equipment.. the machines remain in synchronism with each other but not necessarily at the nominal frequency. If that what you meant. That was already above my expectation.2:57 am Dear Process value.2:09 pm Many years ago. it is torque angle that that is going to change.. After reducing the voltage its generator torque angle came closer to system average. the differences in speed will be much less than that . 2012 . > So yes you will see changes in speed across the system . And. percentage.
when connected to the grid the machine and the grid frequency will remain the same under steady state condition. Posted by Process Value on 7 January. The relative difference between the speeds is zero for a steady state condition. 2011 .. how much does it change when you increase the fuel to one of the turbines causing it to accept more of the load on the grid? And for how long does the speed change? 0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful. I have also included the corresponding droop chara diagram also.0 Hz. the load angle determines the power output of the machine.12:23 am > pick-ups of the Mark II and Mark V units from your site to see if the two units are running at different speeds while connected to the same grid. Ashish Posted by Process Value on 20 February. 2011 . i do not have the grid documents with me now. and supplying to a section load The explanation of a independent machine is a little difficult as there is no fixed reference point of observation.com/photo/Mn3dj5ps/load_chara_machine_with_grid. the reverse happens for a decrease in the section load..when fuel/steam to the machine is increases when it is operating independently with a constant section load ( in real life cases this is not the same as most of the loads in a system are motors and an increase in the frequency will increase the power output from the motors) both the vectors E and V accelerate together so as to keep the load angle a constant. when a machine is synchronised to the grid both the vectors E and V rotate in the same frequency .when the grid frequency changes . V to the grid frequency and E to the machine frequency .6:05 am Part .Change in the input to the turbine . both vectors are moving in the anticlockwise direction with the the speed equal to the speed of the generator. http://www.Machine independent . no place in the world has a perfect grid frequency.com/thread/1267218529 2012-06-27 . The vector V is controlled by the load while the vector E is controlled by the generator. the reverse happens in case of a fuel/steam reduction to the turbine/gen set. And for the Mechanical Dept.2shared.8:39 pm I do not know how the grid explanation got missed . The angle between them .. < > As ProcessValue has pointed out. Machine and bus load angles are always expressed from a reference bus. thus the relative speed between the two is zero. This is reason why we can draw a stable vector diagram. it is a one year old thread. Now two separate conditions can happen to the machine connected to the grid. 2011 . Here the change in power output with the change in frequency follows the droop reference of the machine. the reverse happens for a reduction in the fuel/steam input.9:04 pm >Part . The vector V represents the section load terminal voltage . The machine is put in droop mode of operation. But i will see if i can dig up something. 0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful.control. I have also induced the corresponding droop Chara diagram also.2 Change input to the machine ..1 : the Theory The machine acts differently for different operating conditions.2 .1 change in the grid frequency . in the vector diagram there are two main vectors.when there is increase in the section load the vector V decelerates and reaches a new steady state position. A. A. the vector V accelerates twords the vector E and then finds a steady state position. thus the load angle in the machine increases and thus the power delivered to the grid increases.when fuel/steam input to the machine is increased the machine accelerates ie in the vector diagram the vector V remains the same but the vector E accelerates away from the vector V. while the vector E the generation voltage.Change in the section load . I am uploading a diagram here which explains the above scenarios with VECTOR diagrams. this deceleration will cause the increase in the load angle which will cause the increased power transfer. to provide the nameplate data from the load gear box nameplates.1 : the Theory Vector diagrams are welcome. Yes i am a fan of vector diagrams and i am using them again :) section A . the load angle determines the power transfer.2shared. and the normal convention is to that they rotate in the anticlockwise direction. Thus this causes a reduction in the load angle and thus the power supplied by the machine to the grid reduced.Speed of Synchronous Generator 18의 33페이지 Thanks & Regards. The vector V in effect represents the grid and the vector E the machine. thank you for your patience. the reverse happens for a reduction in the grid frequency. B.1 . http://www. However the increase in the fuel is minimal as assuming a constant section load the increase in fuel is just to compensate the rotational losses for a higher speed.com/photo/DPgAaD1p/load_chara_machine_indipenden t. Now two separate conditions can happen to the machine when it is independent B. The vector V which is the terminal voltage while the vector E is the generated voltage in the alternator. Posted by Process Value on 6 January. Thus the hallmark of a grid under steady state condition in stable frequency. Both these vectors rotate . but as long as the frequency isn't changing by http://www. the machine speed also drops in accordance with the droop chara/ref. i am taking a intermediate generation bus as my reference.html Posted by CSA on 6 January. This increase in speed is due to the shift in the droop ref chara. html Section B .Machine in parallel to the grid I am assuming that the machine is put in droop mode of operation. The question remains: How much does the speed of the turbines at your site change when they are loaded while connected in parallel with a other machines on a grid of relatively stable frequency? Even if the frequency isn't 50. The angle between the two vectors . I am uploading a diagram here which explains the above scenarios with VECTOR diagrams. 2012 .
B1" of the explanation. check out the results in the folder. Auto loading .the bus frequency . I had to take the bus frequency which is similar to the grid frequency under parallel condition.3Hz for a load throw off of 2. here what we do is decrease fuel to the machine.Machine frequency calcualted from the machine speed sensor TNH TNH . indicating a droop of around 3. ie the machine was constantly accelerating and de accelerating over the setpoint . The archive file below give the trend snapshots and the trend data in csv. it can be clearly seen in the graph that even though the reduction in load is near instantaneous the fsr and thus the fuel reduction takes some time more . 8.95 a increase of 0.sfl1) The experiment setup . Auto Unloading of the machine . 4. Manual unloading of the machine . MW was around 0.http://www.machine parallel to the grid with droop mode 5. ) but with certain operational constraints i have done the following experiments over a period of two days.com/file/G7yF_WMp/grid_frq_change. Pic of the test setup . this is where you can really see the machine hunting. 6.the difference in the frequency between the machine and the bus.Speed of Synchronous Generator 19의 33페이지 more than +/.3-0. 4. it also oscillates the whole way during the ramp up to the 18 MW. except that a manual lower command was given . not by much but by but by a maximum of 0. Machine parallel to the grid with increase in the fuel/steam input to the machine. 3. 7.25 Hz in a very short period (seconds or less) we could review the results. 3. This is similar to the condition in "section A" of the explanation .002 to a negative of 0.2shared.2shared.5 MW . 5.com/file/np0jvybf/GT_tests.This is very similar to a load throw off in a independent machine. except possibly at ProcessValue's site. Manual Loading . here there is a sudden reduction in the load. which is how units are normally loaded and unloaded around the world.3 MW continuously.similar to the auto unloading .rar http://www. machine parallel to the grid with preselect control 2. which essentially drives the turbine speed reference up and down just like the RAISE and LOWER functions). except that a manual raise command was given three times. Manual Unloading . this is calculated by mark vi VTUR board from the Bus PT connection.4 MW all during the ramp down period. The machine was kept in preselect condition during the test. DWATT . here what we do is increase the fuel to the machine. Manual Loading of the machine . 2. this is the reason for the speed spike and the subsequent speed hunting. 1. http://www. BUS PT is in the CPP sec C bus sdiff2 . Synchronizing with the grid 8. The Gt is a frame 5 machine with 22 MW capacity at site condition.5 MW was maintained when the grid transformer breaker was opened. sudden increase in the speed.the fuel flow in kg/s SFL1 . This is similar to the condition in "section A " of the explation . The test was done on GT-3 as present in the drawing. This is what is used for the auto sync.2 : The experiment what i have said above is theory . Opening of the grid breaker under export condition 6. the machine frequency which was around 49. from 18 MW the set point was given as 14. when i asked the vendors they said such provisions is only at their test site and it is not possible on the given system :( .html Limitations of the test setup . < > What we want to know is how much the actual running speed of the turbines at ProcessValue's site change by and for how long when they are loaded and unloaded using the RAISE.The present site i am on has the following configuration. 5. This speed hunting is mainly because the machine cannot match the speed in which the load was thrown off.similar to the auto loading . Auto Unloading . Opening of the grid breaker with export . Machine parallel to the grid with increase in the fuel/steam input to the machine.002 . ( there is a load angle calcualtor of the generator on the AVR but i do not know how to get the real time data from the avr . it is also seen that the machine frequency is hunting with the bus frequency during the whole operation.2-0. < > The point is that units are not normally loaded or unloaded. They are normally loaded and unloaded using the RAISE SPD/LOAD and LOWER SPD/LOAD buttons/switches/targets (or the Preselect Load Control enable functions. an export was 2.0015 to negative of 0. 2.html I trended the following signals 1.The machine was in preselect mode at 14 MW and the setpoint was raised to 18. the speed during the initial throw off jumped by around 0. check out the results and graphs in the folder.2shared.01 Hz .machine MW output DF . Auto loading of the machine .and LOWER SPD/LOAD functions.0025.control. Opening of the grid breaker under import condition 7. which to the best of my knowledge is true. similar to the autounloading of the machine but the occilations seem to be on the higher side here .65 raised to 49. < Part . the hunting was from a maximum of 0. by "throwing on" or "throwing off" blocks of electrical load as he wants to do with his test.The major limitation of the test setup is the lack of a frequency source which is in the grid. 1. This is similar to the "section B . machine parallel to the grid with preselect control 3. which is not a typical loading or unloading method. Heavy motor starting in section I let the trend recorder run for one whole day and i got some interesting trends on how the machine behaves to grid frequency occilations and sudden and rapid frequency change in the grid.the fuel stroke rate in percentage FQLM .the machine speed raise / lower command which is responsible for increasing or decreasing the TNR FSR . it is seen that during parallel operation to the grid the MW is hunting by 0. machine parallel to the grid with droop mode 4. The machine is a dual fuel capability machine now running in naptha. Not by throwing on or throwing off blocks of load.34 %.com/thread/1267218529 2012-06-27 .html The complete trend snapshot and trend data in csv format is uploaded here in the archive file GT_test.0.Here the machine in preselect mode .droop reference L70L and L70R . It is very hard to get experimental data on load angle calculations .com/document/YLmm69rE/test_setup.Machine speed TNR . this led to the sudden load throw off . 9. http://www. it is the value of ( df_vtur .
But there will not be any difference between frequency and voltage when the machine sychronised with the grid. >> This is my opinion and experience. so that is all from the experiment side .This is very similar to the sudden loading of the independent machine. hence for a short time generator speed will decrease or increase depending of load changes. "When synchronism is lost.5:58 am Sunil Kumar wrote: >> But there will not be any difference between frequency and voltage >> when the machine sychronised with the grid.5 to 18. Thanks Sunil Kumar 0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful. > This is my opinion and experience. If only they would recognize them as transients.7:14 pm Sunil Kumar wrote: > But there will not be any difference between frequency and voltage > when the machine sychronised with the grid. besides this all the cases in the theory Section A A1. This trend is available in the grir_frq_change.snip ---CSA wrote: > Namatimangan08 and Process Value are fortunate to live in a part of the world > that experiences many transients and to have such other-worldly experiences to > share.5 MW was maintained when the grid transformer breaker was opened. the affected generator or generators operates slightly at different frequencies" http://www. training and knowledge (not my opinion). Google: generators loss of synchronism . Even on shipboard electrical systems.6 before recovering as the machine was in preselect. This is my opinion and experience.control.. 8. " A loss of synchronism occurs when bonding force is insufficient to hold a generator and a group of generators in step with the rest of power system" My comment. Namatimangan08 and Process Value are fortunate to live in a part of the world that experiences many transients and to have such otherworldly experiences to share.A2 and Section B B1 is covered and it can be seen that the theory matched the results.22 suddenly .This statement supports my position. A very similar result to the above just that the speed reduction took place in accordance with the droop.That is exactly the point I wanted to put forward.1 Introduction "Normally all generators within the interconnected power system operate like their magnetic poles coupled through interaction through the network" My comment. I can assure you not only me Process Value. I think I'm in good agreement with PV. i will upload the data as soon as i do it. Opening of the grid breaker with import .This statement is related to your position "Interconnecting force is elastic.Look for for the second topic Chapter 12 (My summary) 12..rar archive. Synchronizing with the grid . A1" explanation. one interesting aspect is that the hunting died off quite quickly in this case. here you can see that the grid frequency raised from 50. 2012 . Sunil Kumar. This is exactly the same as my experience. Thank you.com/thread/1267218529 2012-06-27 . i forgot to do manual raise lower and raise in the independent mode of operation .. This is a transient chara of the machine . (except in transient condition). Also the operators of most shipboard electrical systems clearly understand isochronous operation and how to load and unload units to maintain frequency. 2012 . now the machine power came down from 19. 2012 . If only they would recognize them as transients. 7. (except in transient condition). allowing some angular play between generators in response to system disturbances" My comment .1 to 50. Usually the speed governors of the prime movers of these shipboard electrical generators are pretty well tuned and can respond properly to most load swings with little or no problem and can maintain frequency to within +/-0.This is similar to the "section A . ---.Speed of Synchronous Generator 20의 33페이지 6. Sudden frequency increase in the grid . Posted by Namatimangan08 on 23 February.This is where the actual Load and speed hunting in the machine can be seen clearly. Since you didn't want to explore the key words that I have posted a few days ago let me summarize one of the articles that has something to do with our discussion. 0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful.2% of nominal. which are small islands with as few as two synchronous generators.11:49 am This is because the speed governor has certain delay in responding to the transient changes in the load. An import of 2. Posted by CSA on 22 February. (except in transient condition).. This led to the sudden loading of the machine and thus a sudden reduction in the speed. Posted by Sunil Kumar on 22 February.
this will acts as a brake on the rotor and pull it into step..9 HZ. next second 72 degree out of phase.2:40 pm A more common scenario is that the incoming generator is rotating slightly faster than the grid ..75 times (27 deg)of the first second. the further away it tries to move.1 rps faster than the grid . 2. Meanwhile.1 Hz relative slip speed the generator angle would increase by 36 degrees in 1 second. is it possible? my answer is No. Posted by Bruce Durdle on 24 February. opinion may differ depends on our knowledge. All of sudden one t/generator tries to accelerate by 0.75% more. If this was not the case. Since the power fed to the transmission line depends on the phase angle (see my other post) there will be a small amount of power fed from the generator . Then as the shaft for accelerated t/generated is displaced by 36 deg/s or + 0.for 60 Hz. The issue I was trying to explain is the mechanics between parallel generators.10:22 am Let us Assume that the Grid frequency is at exactly 60.7% over speed:". At least I'm not the one to debate about it. I will name all that I know.. 2012 . Regards Sunil 0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful. Let us take your example to illustrate how this mechanic at work. In my opinion there may be slight hunting between +or.. 2012 . third second 108 degree out of phase like that it goes on. In this case you can see that natural mechanic cannot stop the deviation to be less than 180 deg since it is completely out of phase already. In this region. both of them will come into synchronism again if its torque angle does not deviate up to out of step protection activated. As a result you can see the total deviation for the next one second is smaller than the first second. (1) The speed droop (2) Partial shut down generator -hydro (3) Out of step stage 1. the rotor position will not change instantaneously because of its inertia. the frequency for the remaining system will accelerate due to additional opposing torque they put on the t/generator. Even the droop can't help either since its ramp rate is not not infinitely fast.1 Hz. The fastest ramp rate that I know is 15% per second. then at 0. For the next one second its displacement could be 0.so the synchroscope pointer is rotating clockwise.Clear this is my position. But then how a turbine/generator or a group of turbine generators can loss its synchronism? Assuming major disturbance that causes one of the turbine generators to undergo acceleration at the rate of 360 deg/s. For a stable grid you take for granted relative angle between both of them stays less than 80 deg during steady state load change and during the calculated transient disturbances. it is doing 0. while the remaining grid frequency is catching up.. that means for first second 36degree out of phase. the machine speed will be 60. It depends on whether the shaft displacement has tendency to go above 180 deg or to go below 90 deg region. The physic of t/generators in parallel works as the following. For the 3rd one second the droop will keep on reducing the load by says 1. As a result its shaft cannot move freely to 72 deg as given in your stated example. So the rate of frequency deviation will become even smaller. My comment.but not in one way.. and the rotor could increase its angle without limit.com/thread/1267218529 2012-06-27 . Thanks Posted by sunil kumar on 24 February. Not generators vs resistive loads. Therefore. it will change continously.Speed of Synchronous Generator 21의 33페이지 My comment. Posted by Namatimangan08 on 24 February. its speed droop will reduce the t/generator output by 2%. This provides additional "opposing torque" to reduce its acceleration..1Hz/s (36 deg/s). Between 90-180 deg it is called transient instability region (Process Value's statement). Probably PV position too. the electrical power out of the machine increases and the system reaches equilibrium with the rotor angle stable when electrical and mechanical power http://www. 1 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful. But because of the relationship between power and relative angle. I proposed 30RPM for 3000 RPM (1% slip) system is assumed to be normal. When the breaker is closed. If it's rotating at 1 rev in 10 seconds. By the same time the remaining grid frequency probably has increased by says 10 deg relative to the previous frequency. if so. By the same time the frequency for the rest of the system has experienced slight acceleration.control.067pu or 6. 2012 . (4) Over speed protection Stage 1 (electrical) (5) Over speed protection Stage 2 (mechanical) (6) Breaker failure protection. There is another mechanic at work namely the speed droops. there is no issue to debate regarding the frequencies of prime movers and resistive loads. As on of the t/generator tries to move faster it has to drag the rest of system loads to accelerate together due to opposing torque the loads put on the accelerated t/generator. generator cannot run with lesser/greater frequency with grid continiouly. system frequency regulation and control may or may not able to pull the frequency back to syncronism again.1 Hz relative to the remaining grid.0HZ and the generator frequency which is synchronised with grid is having 59. These are the mechanics at work that systematically ensure all the rotating generators cannot go higher than 80 deg faster or slower relative to average system frequency (frequency of the network) assuming the grid is under the normal operating condition. Assuming we start from the system under perfect syncronism. So its shaft undergoes retardation. Assuming the system uses 5% droop set point. I need your openion guys.This is likely the maximum allowable slip before protection system start to concern. "The different frequency is termed slip frequency" "For a generator that pulls out of step ahead of the system with slip frequency of 4Hz will operating at a speed of 1+ Slip frequency/60=1. I may not be perfect. Luckily there are many layers protection before it can reach the runaway speed. The mechanic to keep the synchronism healthy is not limited by the explanation given by the preceding paragraph. In above case generator phases are 36 degree (electrical) slower than grid frequency for every second. Naturally. They will definitely settle down at the same frequency again. ie. what will be the angle between grid and the generator phases.1:39 pm First of all..the machine rotor field will be 30 degrees ahead of the field set up by the external voltage. the slower its acceleration becomes. 72 in 2 seconds . Also assume that the breaker is closed at 11 oclock .
then think about my experienced with a 28MW Pelton turbine generator. where V1<a1 is the voltage and phase angle at the generator. such condition cannot exist unless the generators are coupled by a rigid coupling.. can rotate in harmony at the same frequency. This is just my thought. You are right but the main reason to keep the speed of the incoming generator to be higher than the grid is to share some load from the grid. etc. So if we use phase angle a2 of V2 as reference. 2012 . The reason is a generator complies with the laws of motion. I have posted the statement from independent article to illustrate the point. Thanks 0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful.. 2012 . they may be slight changes.com/thread/1267218529 2012-06-27 . If the generator speed lags behind grid frequency than the generator will give up its small load to adjust to the grid frequency.. Electromagnetic force that holds the generators in synchronism is not rigid. Posted by CSA on 24 February. It cannot stay in one way like lagging or leading for long time. but significant frequency differences? No. but the poles of the generator rotor will not run at any other speed than the above formula will allow relative to frequency for even 1 second.7:57 am If you have 20 generators in parallel you think 20 generators all the times will have equal frequency? If that what you mean then please show any scientific or mathematical prove to support your position. When its leading it will take some load from the grid to match with grid. Not even 0. Posted by Namatimangan08 on 25 February.12:54 pm F=(P*N)/120 There might be angular differences between machines.1 Hz. acceleration differences will result in momentary (millisecond) frequency differences. 2012 . it is doing 0.control. 0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful.for 60 Hz.Speed of Synchronous Generator 22의 33페이지 are matched. If you think the paper was written by an academician who has lost touch with reality in his writing.. 1 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful. and V2<a2 is the same at the other end of the line. I also agree that the generator frequency may not be exactly equal to the grid frequency. 2012 . and if V1 is leading V2 by a1. Can you find any? Base on one of the Newton's laws. This balance can be turned into a second-order differential equation relating the rate of change of (rate of change) of angle a1 to the losses (proportional to the rate of change of angle as the relative speed of damping windings) and the power flow down the line.1 Hz for any appreciable period of time (more than milliseconds). I have been doing some World Wide Web research on out-of-step relays and their application. and while there can be losses of synchronism between generation areas in a power system or between interconnected systems when detected these events should very quickly result in separation of the affected areas to prevent widespread outages and even damage.but it will be in both side (+or -). As suggested by others. How two generators that are placed probably (1) 1000km apart(2) one has moment inertia twice as big as the other (3) one might have higher ramp rate than the other (4) have diff impedance. If 1 is a generator.. the machine speed will be 60. And even areas of generation which are detected to be out of synch (which is usually much before actual "slipping" of poles occurs) the protection is supposed to operate to isolate the affected areas to protect them against damage.so the synchroscope pointer is rotating clockwise. That would mean that the poles have slipped and that would mean catastrophic damage has occurred. Variations may not be experienced Physically also but always there will be an attempt to match the frequency with the grid. Posted by Bruce Durdle on 24 February.1 rps faster than the grid .2:29 pm The physical law you require is the power transfer over an inductive transmission line. As soon the generator takes the load from the grid the speed will come down according to speed droop setting and it will continue to take the load until it equalise the speed of the grid. http://www.. Many of the manufacturers of out-of-step protective relays have extensive papers on their application and operation. Posted by Namatimangan08 on 24 February. This is given by (V1 x V2) x sin(a1-a2)/X. Bruce Posted by Sunil Kumar on 25 February. The paper that I quoted before talks about a generator or a group of generators can go out of sychronism.2:16 am > I have been doing some World Wide Web research on out-of-step relays and their application. 2012 . In no paper I have read does it ever talk about individual generators being out of synchronism with each other. this power flow is an output from the system and must be balanced by the mechanical power to the generator: Mechanical power in = electrical power out + losses + rate of change of shaft kinetic energy. But again it depends on the governor performance too.11:49 am > > > > A more common scenario is that the incoming generator is rotating slightly faster than the grid . If it's rotating at 1 rev in 10 seconds. If this is true there must be a plain simple equation that can describe the phenomena. there is a power flow from 1 to 2.
as you say.. We are talking very shortlived infinitesimal effects here. and I doubt if it could be detected on most machine tachogenerators. whatever someone wants to call it).restoring the original power balance. It is important to ensure the sum of the total inertial energy of rotating mass of the grid supports the stable ramp rate of turbine generators to have a stable system. Posted by Bruce Durdle on 24 February. And. Thanks! 1 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful. from everything I was taught and understand an out of synch condition on a generator is catastrophic--in many ways.this on plants with a large local load where the incoming link was designed for a small residual power flow. Bruce Posted by CSA on 24 February.5 Hz) for a brief period of time (how long.control. constant frequency operation is merely a dream. If you want more detail. out of step relay doesn't do anything rather than alarms plant operators or removes the plant out of the system. out-of-step relays are supposed to sense slipping of poles before it occurs to prevent mechanical damage and outages. We can view it by looking at the ratio between the biggest per unit capacity of a prime mover and maximum grid (or area) peak demand capacity. Bruce. and reducing the acceleration to zero. The total change in angle for say a 10 % change in power is about 8 degrees.. This is one the reasons why some parts of the world. "load angle". Some monitor load angles and from what I've been reading they attempt to anticipate an out of synch condition (which would result in slipping of poles) and operate to prevent such an occurrence. because my experience just doesn't match with this operating out of synchronism. My comment on synchronising was based on my observations of what works . The amount of inertial energy of a t/generator is one of the parameters that will be clear specified when we wish to purchase a turbine generator.if the synchroscope is going at about 1 rev in 10 sec clockwise. 2012 . or 0. the shaft KE increases and there is a very small increase in instantaneous speed of the generator rotor. I have no problem with that. then I'm wrong.. Again.. If the rotor actually sped up or slowed down then currents would be induced on the rotor in addition to the slipping of poles that would be occurring. Maybe it's just the equipment I work with that doesn't allow me to see these speed differences. http://www. I've actually asked this of you in a previous post. even for 1 second.6:06 pm So. Posted by Namatimangan08 on 25 February. I would like to be very clear about this for others reading this post. Otherwise. are you saying that during loading of a machine that it's frequency will increase (say to 50. And it's also clear that when torque input from the prime mover increases or decreases during normal loading and unloading that there is also an angular change because of acceleration.5 seconds. But. This increases the angle of 1 relative to 2 and the electrical power in the transmission line increases to match . But. the result is an instantaneous acceleration of the rotor.1:58 am I far as I know. the immediately pick up about 10-20 % forward power with minimum rotor disturbance. This is extremely small and results in a small increase in speed which in turn increases the rotor angle of the generator. And. I'm sorry to be so dense. I think you can rely on the droops to keep the synchronism healthy and inertia energy constant to absorb and provide energy momentarily. and I'll be wrong in the future. but not more than a tenth of a hertz. we're talking about hundredths of a hertz. Bruce Durdle. As the ratio becomes bigger. please--just an estimation is all that's required) and that the generator being loaded is actually out of sync with the other generators with which it is being operated in parallel with? And then after some time when the kinetic energy balances out the rotor will return to the same frequency as the other machines? Do the poles of the generator rotor actually speed up and "jump" ahead? Wouldn't this be slipping a pole by increasing torque and wouldn't it have physical consequences on the coupling and rotors of the generator and/or the prime mover? I completely understand that there are angular differences under steady-state operation that are a function of load ("torque angle". Why is that so? Slowly fundamental for stable grid operations is compromised for lower operating cost.com/thread/1267218529 2012-06-27 . This is one of the indicators to measure how "infinite" is the system that we have.but it would be in something like Excel so I'd need an address to send it to. If you can stand it (bearing in mind earlier comments about differential equations) I can dredge up some hard data from my records and set up a dynamic model for you . it becomes more infinite. and if the machine has an inertia constant of 5 seconds (typical for a large hydro or small thermal set). 0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful. it's the whole grid not just one machine.the acceleration power falls to zero and the two systems return to synchronism. The actual increase in speed as a % of nominal is about 1 %. My country is not spared. I've been wrong before. every generator's frequency (and speed) increases until the machines operating at part load have their droop governors kick in. 2012 . the system becomes less infinite. The effect is very short-lived. I've worked on some pretty big machines and they can actually have an effect on grid frequency they are so "stiff" (I think that was the term that was used) and unless some other machine's load is reduced as these big machine's loads are increased the grid frequency will increase (presuming the grid load is stable at the time). If I'm wrong. I have also seen situations where synchronising was very difficult because the external grid was not strong enough to develop the synchronising torque needed to pull the rotor into lock unless the breaker was closed at top dead center with little or no speed differential . 2012 . the total KE is 5 x the VA rating. I can send you some references to texts containing the necessary differential and other equations. Loss of excitation relays and out-of-step relays are used to try to prevent this by anticipating such a condition and operating before it occurs.Speed of Synchronous Generator 23의 33페이지 If mechanical power in increases. or an ISO operator reduces load on one or more other generators to bring the frequency back to nominal. But that is brief (on the order of milliseconds) and in my experience the poles of the generator rotor stay in synchronism with frequency of the generator stator (the grid frequency). with the time before equilibrium is restored being dependent on the moment of inertia of the shaft (typically of the order of 1 second). if the mechanical power into a rotor is increased so that there is a surplus of energy in. This increase in the rotor angle will then act to increase the electrical output of the generator .10:53 pm I am saying that. and you close the breaker at about 11 o'clock.
using torque rather than power. > where V1<a1 is the voltage and phase angle at the generator..3. 2012 . Thank you. As an illustration of the numbers involved. and 4 above without exception? Why we can't have a group of t/generators that falls under 2 and the remaining falls under 1. Ours the ratio is 5%. but I thought and still mostly think I understand the simple idea of how a power system operates.2.6 deg/s after 0. I think you can't see most of the issues that I put forward.3:35 am > The physical law you require is the power transfer over an inductive > transmission line. and even more difficult to explain. Re written your equation in the form of swing equation for each generator..3:30 pm Managed to troll through my archives and found a reference giving some typical swing curve calculations ("Power System Stability: Synchronous Machines" by E W Kimbark). There are four possible scenarios about the solutions we may have at the end of our Laplace transform analysis for the second order DE depends upon mainly J and c above. Posted by Namatimangan08 on 25 February. the DE looks like this Jd^2A/dt + cdA/dt + kA = Induced torque J= second moment of inertia (kgm2) A= Angular displacement (rad) c= Damping constant k= Stiffness constant The solutions are of the type of second order DE.043 % at 60 Hz). 1 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful. Undamped oscillation Underdamped oscillation Overdamped oscillation Critically damped http://calculus7. line impedance etc.snip ---Thank you mate.026 Hz or 0. The parameters used by swing equation as you have agreed all come from t/generator alone. apparent and real power. This is given by > (V1 x V2) x sin(a1-a2)/X. equal phase and equal time? Remember the swing equations for all turbine generators have little thing to do with electrical network. then reducing to 52. using your equation (it is a matter of fact I am one of the strong believers in that equation too). and how these generators work together to provide a stable and consistent flow of power. Mechanical power = rate of increase in kinetic of rotating mass + power consumed + losses + power required to change the shaft angular position.. etc. The physic law that I asked specifically was.. etc.control.35 sec. 1 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful. Not the sort of effect you'd expect to see on a meter! 0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful. 2012 .com/thread/1267218529 2012-06-27 .65 sec.3 deg after 0.. "I have confusion as how increase in electrical load lead to decrease in generator rpm? And why if we increase the generator rpm (by injecting more fuel in gas turbines) increase the power? At the time this seemed like a simple question. The rate of change of angle was 0 initially to + 9.Speed of Synchronous Generator 24의 33페이지 So if in your country you have this ratio smaller than 2%. one of his worked examples (related to a fault condition rather than a change in loading) gives a change in power angle from 46. Too bad. There have been several ways that people who post here have tried to simply explain the idea of how a generator converts mechanical energy to electrical energy. They could end up one of the followings 1. especially for people like me who dislike complex and theoretical math. 4.5 at 0. 2.. but we have to bear with it.. In my small 10 years of the industry I have not seen even a small amount of what is out there. Posted by Bruce Durdle on 25 February.. I have been following this post since it started now almost 2 years ago from a simple question. and V2<a2 is the > same at the other end of the line. (slip speed 0. then what law of physics that explains they all shall have oscillation with equal amplitude.2 sec. for instance? b) Assuming there is a specific law of physics that can explain all of them shall end up according to 3 only (as many people believe).8:12 pm Dear Namatimangan08. I still tend to think it is a difficult concept to understand sometimes. That ratio is still okay to get a stable grid.05 s. Maximum acceleration in deg/s was 3.5 deg after 0. 3..5 to 88. But I really appreciate the fact that most people who post here attempt to keep their answers on the simple side if possible. 2012 .html The questions are: a) What law of physics that ensure all parallel generators will end up either 1. But as I told you slowly but surely lower operating cost will dictate the way that our grid is operated. Posted by MIKEVI on 24 February.com/id8. Well understood. http://www. which can get very complex by introducing vector angles. ---.
If there is no protection against out of phase." You run a unit at 3000RPM. and to challenge people to explain their positions on some issues so as to help them. I have seen this swing myself. As long as their Synchronism Torque Angle (STA) will not deviate by greater than 180 degree.In 2005 our grid system with running capacity of 15. Posted by CSA on 25 February. theoretically their governors can keep them under synchronism. But due to the magnetic coupling inside the generator it is not possible for that machine to operate at a different frequency or speed than the grid it is attached to. My hope for forums like this has always been to foster sharing amongst many people. That oscillation can be very damaging but to me it not about load. You have given us a lot of pause and have made many of reflect on our understandings and experiences. However. 2012 .200MW for about 20 minutes." This seems really scary and foreign to me. As long as their Synchronism Torque Angle (STA) will not >deviate by greater than 180 degree. I can't find anywhere that someone says that a power system doesn't work if there is no frequency deviation. Lastly you state the following. "Whatever you want to call it: load. when I visit the site and see a fairly inaccurate statement about basic principles I feel it necessary to speak up." I really don't understand this statement either. Sound strange right? But it true.com and just wanted to clarify what you were saying. Others are also just as free to ask for clarification and/or to challenge what is being said or proposed.com/thread/1267218529 2012-06-27 . I do understand that a machine might be slightly out of angular phase with the grid at times.. You are welcome to your understanding and interpretation and you are even free to speak what you believe to be true (freedom of speech is an awesome thing!).. I had always hoped that others would begin to post more often and add their experiences. I try to learn from my wrongs and grow my knowledge in the process. All of them are prompt to hunting. Further you say. as well as discouraging. or if an event occurs where a large load is introduced or taken away from an area near a machine. 2012 . The rotor is still rotating at the same frequency or speed of the grid. 0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful. but none of it false) and that was both encouraging to me. If you believe the idea of one frequency then which generator follows which? Why then? We don't close breakers for parallel generators. They can only recognize speed. I was not offended by your statement about my misunderstanding. It is "elastic". At least one of the articles clear stated it is not rigid at all.control. While my understanding--and explanation--may not be 100% accurate (again. Things get a lot better then. the two t/generators will operate at their respective frequencies at least until severe damaged occurred. "It is true as pointed by somebody in this forum that a power system doesn't work if there is no frequency deviation. > "Straightly speaking two generators in parallel most likely are never have > the same frequency. when it is being synchronized to the grid.com is that I seem to have monopolized most of the Speedtronic-related threads here. making multiple generators act like on large single machine. But the fundamental hasn't changed. But it was not only me in this thread that proposed two areas might have temporary frequency swing which is called inter areas oscillation. my only interest was to have you clarify your statement. I have attempted to add the benefit of my experience and understanding. Others have added their voice to this thread. However. prime mover or generator." Can you please explain to me in simple terms what you mean by this statement? I can understand that a generator may have a VERY slight difference in phase angle at times.com: I have been wrong before. Just go there and read. It is more about generators in parallel. You have done so. and I'll be wrong in the future. If the truth about rigidity of that magnetic coupling that troubled you and you want to know the truth. because my personal experience is only one fraction of the experience that's available in the world. One of the reasons I have chosen not to post as often to control. The fundamental is that two diff frequencies can exist in one transmission line if the sources induce two diff frequencies. If a generator governor is operating properly then a generator should not "hunt". So their responses are based on frequency deviation. We synchronized them. Since reducing the number of posts I make some "new" people have come forward with their experience and knowledge (not all of it correct. Posted by Namatimangan08 on 24 February. As I've said many times before on control. to be able to reason through issues or principles and arrive at a more thorough and possibly correct understanding. "Straightly speaking two generators in parallel most likely are never have the same frequency. Close it breaker to supply load to electrical appliances. My understanding is that all these generators are rigidly coupled together by the magnetic forces that exist between the stator and rotor of each machine. The breaker will close. theoretically their governors can keep > them under synchronism.Speed of Synchronous Generator 25의 33페이지 But my belief still tends to fall with CSA and Bruce Durdle that once a generator is synchronized to the grid. I have posted key words for Google search that enables you to access many articles to support my position regarding this matter. Can you please explain this reasoning to me so I can understand it? I don't mean to pick on your posts but they just don't seem to make sense to how I was taught in school and how I see my plant operate. What I'm trying to say is when it comes to load swing (load hunting) system size doesn't matter. this time. that its frequency will be the same as any other generator in the system no matter how close or far away. All prime movers (that includes generators) in the system do not recognize what is load.11:26 pm First of all magnetic coupling between generators and load you can assume they are rigid. What will happen? Do you think the breaker refused to close just because incoming and outgoing RPM are not equal? No. and others." FYI. It just points to the monopolization I was sensing and reinforces my decision to significantly reduce the number of posts I make to this forum. So I cannot be intimidated by complex vector diagrams that I don't understand if they suggest the other way around. A moment later you close another breaker (not synchronization) for a t/generator that is operating 3010RPM. unless it losses synchronization by loss of or too little field excitation. I don't have the knowledge of power system stability theory and http://www. You don't have to take my words. I don't think I'm in error. I wanted to just correct "tribal knowledge" myths (completely unrelated to this thread!) and errors. I am really confused by your first post on this thread.000MW was hunting by the order of +/. I happened to come upon this thread on a once-per-month visit back to control. It can be treated as rigid coupling for almost all practical purposes. not normally though and a slight deviation in phase angle is not a difference in frequency. If you can measure the sine waves using two oscilloscopes that you specifically filter them out to see 3000RPM and 3010RPM you will see these two sine waves coexist together.12:17 pm Namatimangan08.
As I told you. which I don't tend to agree with. 2012 . and you seem to suggest this is normal.. humbling and enlightening to do so from time to time. Posted by Namatimangan08 on 25 February. I assume we are talking about a machine designed for a 50hz system. My understanding was that generators don't generally slip poles. At the end of the day you will find it is not as simple as you want to believe. i can assure you this.Speed of Synchronous Generator 26의 33페이지 practice and experience with transient studies and events) I believe my basic understanding of the operation of AC electrical power systems and synchronous generators is sound. Best regards. It's very helpful. The age age swing equations that I have shown you is more than 250 hundred years by now.16HZ. Because of opposing torque that the electrical load has produced.12:37 pm Dear. approximately 50.control. 1 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful. http://www.. This is what is termed as generator slip poles. Yes. 2) why does speed of a generator increase when system electrical load is decreased. "I have confusion as how increase in electrical load lead to decrease in generator rpm? And why if we increase the generator rpm (by injecting more fuel in gas turbines) increase the power? ---. But assuming the unit has less inertia and power than the grid it is joining. Posted by MKVI on 25 February. If you want to figure it out how a grid works yourself just don't make simplification until you can be cheated by you own simplification. and don't ever be afraid to post here or to ask for clarification. Try to goggle it yourself if you can find any scientific evident to prove its existence.. everyone. Keep up the good work. It seems like the thread has moved very far away from this topic. Therefore many people wish to take short cut by creating the what so called "rigidly locked into synchronism" to explain how grid work. Just goggle it. 0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful. But to paraphrase the simple question that started this thread was: 1) why does speed of a generator slow down when system electrical load is increased. if the loads and the generators are not rigidly locked into synchronism then why should we believe all the turbine generators can be rigidly locked into synchronism between them? Point to ponder.2:59 am I just give direct answers. I don't wish to belabour this topic on this thread. and I choose to disagree with your explanation. any further. Back to my once-per-month check-ins now. Dear. so I'd rather say you have a machine operating at its designed 50hz frequency. I thought that controls and limits were in place to block this type of event because of the damage it can cause? I agree that it is interesting to ponder this subject. You don't have to take my words. Thanks for making us all stop and reflect on our understanding and experience. it depends on the forces being exerted on it and its relative strength. They can operate at slightly different phase angles but not at different frequencies. It takes sometimes before they match. such concept does not exist. or any other thread. You talk about having a unit operating at 3000 rpm. Elastic means they can slip. So you close the breaker. If they help.com/thread/1267218529 2012-06-27 . > 2) why does speed of a generator increase when system electrical load is decreased. that unit will be pulled or pushed into sychronization with the grid it has just become part of. But again when talking of parallel units they are coupled to the grid they are part of. Others may choose to agree. The reasons for elastic bonding between generators and loads can occur is due to time taken between torque induced by prime movers and developed torques to match is not infinitely small. But my opinion is that ANY coupling can be elastic. 2012 . It is a bit difficult to most of us here even to me. I supposed. This is my note for this matter. 2012 . Just figure it out how they can maintain their synchronism. In your other response you talk about generators slipping poles. During this period one tries to move away from the other.. assuming the unit breaker closes with the phase angles nearly in sync. The important point I wish I can share is. But this is not the main issue I like to talk about. not normally though and a slight deviation in phase angle is not a difference in frequency. Now you close in another unit operating over frequency. Namatimangan08. Namatimangan08 I have read your replies and will agree and disagree with you on certain points. We are all free to disagree.. 0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful. I agree that magnetic coupling and rigid coupling are two different things. Namatimangan08 > 1) why does speed of a generator slow down when system electrical load is increased. If the breaker is closed out of sync then large scale damage can occur.snip ---> > > > > Can you please explain to me in simple terms what you mean by this statement? I can understand that a generator may have a VERY slight difference in phase angle at times. that's the beauty of freedom. Posted by Namatimangan08 on 26 February. The rotor is still rotating at the same frequency or speed of the grid. It's disconcerting that I can't seem to find the words to explain it more clearly. Put the fact that there are hundreds of t/generators in parallel.4:23 am > > > > I have been following this post since it started now almost 2 years ago from a simple question. What you can find.. is elastically locked into synchromism.
2012 . 4 or maybe 6 seconds and sends generator MW controls out to raise/lower generation at selected units to return frequency to nominal if it wanders too far away. Goggle generator in sychronism. "Small value" is a matter of perspective: a utility serving 10000 MW of load might control its ACE to within +/. AGC sends controls to restore the socalled Area Control Error (ACE) to some small value. Even more difficult if your grid is bigger than 50..20 or +/. 2012 . etc. again.5 Hz of nominal (50 or 60 Hz) then a central dispatcher can manually dispatch generation up/down to keep frequency within tolerable limits. where they are electrically in the grid. If the total generation is less than the load then the frequency (and the speed) of all the generators will decrease below the desired grid frequency.. AGC runs typically every 2. Controlling the ramp rate is a part of grid operations too. Note the amount of frequency deviation that AGC responds to can be very small. The faster you ramp the generator the greater chance you can see it. Right here in my country. but i have one question . That was why the grid management paid for the system... Dr Jim Bamby. Posted by Namatimangan08 on 26 February. The ramp rate for any t/generator for grid operations has already been limited so that it will never bring the generator to slip poles under steady state load changes and calculated transient disturbances. There is a relationship between http://www. Look for "Power System Dynamics": Stability and Control-Chapter 6. Posted by nishant on 11 February. We (our company) installed for 5 areas all together. Its hardly you can see any diff in frequency deviation between parallel generators using your method.60 MW of zero.. It depends on the nature of the load they serve. 0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful.2:23 pm It depends on how precisely you want to control frequency. +/-0. easily on the order of 0.2 Swings in Multi Machine System : by Jan Machowski. It is greater chance that you can see relative difference.10:57 pm That explanation was quite helpful. Januz Bialek.control. computers.com/thread/1267218529 2012-06-27 . My final note is I'm not saying their frequencies are different. Posted by Ravi on 25 February. 2012 . are you sure that changing the machine loading ramp rate causes frequency diff. We can only see relative swing between two areas by having monitoring system that keeps on tracking the angles. how is this load matching done as there are peak periods? so what type of system is used for load control so as to keep the system frequency constant? Posted by EhGC on 13 February. Posted by Namatimangan08 on 26 February. as you said that "The total amount of electrical generation must exactly match the amount of electrical load in order for the grid frequency to remain at rated. If the grid loads (and the turbines driving the generators) can tolerate frequency wandering between. That difference is added to the frequency error and. You just have to wait the right moment. the areas meter the power exchanged between them and compare that with the amount they actually want to exchange. are you sure that changing the machine loading ramp rate > causes frequency diff.3:44 am >> one might have higher ramp rate than the other ________________________snip > Namatimangan08. 0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful. I have tried loading the machines using manual > loading and auto ramp rate but I did not observe this. The fastest ramp rate that I know is 15%/second. This additional torque will be used up by the system to achieve new steady state condition. BTW-The title of that chapter tells us that when it comes to swing related problem a simple lump model for generators in parallel is not the best to describe physical behaviors of the system under consideration. my company has installed a system that is called Wide Area Monitoring System (WAMS) for our grid. I have tried loading the machines using manual loading and auto ramp rate but I did not observe this.9:13 am Please read this book.002 Hz. Obviously the grid faced some problems about power quality. Much more commonly. though. the utility has a scada system which feeds MW and frequency data to an Automatic Generation Control application (AGC).000MW. 2012 .Speed of Synchronous Generator 27의 33페이지 Because of there is additional torque that the Prime mover has. motors. If the total generation exceeds the load then the frequency (and the speed) of all the generators will increase above the desired grid frequency. What I'm saying is they can be different. say. 2012 . If the utility is connected to neighboring utilities via AC transmission lines. Obviously at higher frequency..8:36 pm > one might have higher ramp rate than the other ________________________snip Namatimangan08. Especially during steady state operations. 0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful." my question is how do we keep the total load to such an exact value as the load is the sum of all the appliances like lights. Next time when you want to make similar test go and monitor generator frequency rather than grid frequency. traction loads.
generator manufacturers are rating their products for abnormal frequency since normal rarely occurs in some parts of the world. beyond this an increase in speed will also increase the voltages. 0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful. As the level drops. How you are going to do that? This analogy is exactly similar...) So 0. You just open inlet valve gradually until it reaches the new steady state (incoming=outgoing).Speed of Synchronous Generator 28의 33페이지 generation-load balance and frequency: a 100000 MW system suddenly deprived of 1500 MW of generation might see its frequency drop by 0. In grid operation it is similar.. "bring up the level to the original level" is AGC frequency control or manual load intervention.control.the size of many of the turbines I read about in this forum. I think we all agree on F=(P*N)/120. you have already calculated net draw down.. 2012 . We call it load forecast + generation scheduling. in second case if the fuel in put is increased the load sharing by that generator will increase also the system frequency/ speed of generators will increase. I know what it is: It's really a 49..93333 Hz grid. For a grid system "level" is system frequency. As for the data from the fictitious hydro plant. 0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful. Posted by Namatimangan08 on 26 February. You have said that two generators (synchronous.4:10 am Perhaps we have to look from "How things could go wrong with parallel generators under synchonism first" before looking for a simple steady state operations. not all of which is supplying load. There are so many things wrong with your posts on this thread.1 Hz (it would go further if the governors didn't respond to the frequency decline.and the rates you eventually pay: the intermittent and undependable nature of the generation drags frequency around.parallel operation in first case if the generator was supplied more fuel is supplied to generator it will increase the input torque and due to which more load can be supplied against the rated speed of the generator. Otherwise we tend to take for granted about a few things that need to be known in detail to make the grid works the way we want it to be.6:30 pm if the load is increased on the generator it means that the armature current is increased so that the armature reaction will increase and so is the synchronous reluctance due which the reverse motoring effect on the generator will increase if the power input to the generator in fixed load increase will lead to a decrease in speed of generator as the input torque is same but reverse torque due to load increase has been increased. which increases regulating demands on the controllable units. Then you open a bit bigger too build up the level again to the original level. > Perhaps we have to look from "How things could go wrong with parallel > generators under synchonism [sic] first" before looking for a simple steady state operations. If you are smart with tank problem you may have an idea about about the next 30 minutes water consumption so that you are prepared.4:25 pm Namatingan08. now when the speed of the generator increased power output also increases. 0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful. and that's without taking into consideration you are discussing abnormal operation without qualifying your statements. "Tank" is inertia of rotating mass. Posted by Namatimangan08 on 21 February.002 Hz on such a system translates to a generation change of 30 MW . You can see many very good articles to explain how the mechanics of loss of synchronism at work. Bringing the "water level to the new steady state" is the speed droop response. http://www.) You coincidentally used terminology that is quite common in the utility industry . actually the question is a bit uncleared as no conditions have defined. 2012 . Posted by unknown12 on 1 June.stand alone 2. 2012 . (this is why wind generation is one of the worst things to ever happen to the power industry . 2012 .01869 pole machine for a 50 Hz system (nominal.11:39 am > so what type of system is used for load control so as to keep the system frequency constant? Think about how you are going to maintain tank water level at the desired level if you don't know the current consumption. Posted by CSA on 21 February. anyhow lets examine both 1. the third is the case of OTC control in this case as the frequency of the system increases mass flow of the compressor increase due to which outlet temperature decreases then the set value due to which fuel input increases to increase the exhaust temperature and due fuel increase input torque increases and so is the out power of generator. Or. or LFC. and we all know in that part of the world nominal is a dream). Something ain't quite right. it's just "Load Control". Another term for AGC is Load-Frequency Control... Google generators loss of synchronism.load control. this is what you can do. If you know what make the generators loss their synchronism then you know what to do do to make them to remain in synchronism.. About maintaining the tank water level problem. Try this link.. Good luck.com/thread/1267218529 2012-06-27 . actually fuel input or input torque defines the no load speed of the generator and as the no load speed set point increases generator out put increase up to rated speed say 3000 rpm. so what kind of synchronous generator has 428 RPM as it's rated speed? That turns out to be a 14. In some places. It also requires much more regulation capacity to handle the enormously increased range required by the amount of variability. So utilities must build more generation. I presume) being operated in parallel will almost never have the same frequency and you have yet to provide any hard data as to how much the two frequencies might differ and for how long and under what circumstances.
worse. Namatimangan08. they are upset when they are told this is done to protect the axial compressor against surge in underspeed conditions. Ravi Posted by CSA on 24 February. No they don't. the difference being only in 0. they want to defeat the protection to make more power. more like 0. 2012 .962 & 59. Hi CSA. 100% speed) and fail to mention the grid frequency. and we all know in that part of the world nominal is a dream). even worse it comes out that these same people have defeated the under-frequency protection relays on the generator. 2012 .. Posted by Ravi on 24 February.02hz which could be due to their meters.981 & 59. Can you see how hard it is to properly respond to some of these questions? When complete and full disclosure is not made? People purposely hide information to try to make it seem the problem is the turbine control system.59.5 http://www.1 on occasion. Sorry to say. Posted by Ravi on 25 February. we respect you for your posts but plz dont try to judge systems just by listening to some people or reading about them.I checked the frequencies of 5 machines (ours here is 60 hz) and all of them are almost same.. 2012 .961 @ 100 km distance.control. Yes. I'm simply trying to point out that 50 Hz in some parts of the world is not 50 Hz. Ravi Posted by Dodo on 10 April. but in reality the frequency is almost never 50 Hz.982 Hz. Posted by Namatimangan08 on 21 February..7-0.3:40 pm Are the following statements correct? 1)Grid frequency falls when the demand /consumption is higher than generation.. And. Having never been an ISO operator.9 Hz on a regular basis. 2)If an islanded machine with 4% droop is generating full load 100 MW at 49.1 Hz which means the IGV control curve becomes active at PART SPEED (when it's never active at rated.971 @ 250 km distance.. I'm not judging any system.or 5% droop.. 0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful.. with excursions to 47.8:30 pm Thanks Mr. 2012 .CSA for the reply.5:31 pm [These are my simple replies to two simple statements under the stated conditions. only to find the grid frequency is 47. I know well about RPM and number of poles formula.com/thread/1267218529 2012-06-27 .59.1 Hz.. 2012 . Please ensure your exceptions are within the bounds of the statements and conditions stated by Dodo. I sometimes felt that you take opportunity to make some comments even they are not really needed to be made.57140. I have been asked many times why the IGVs are closing when the unit is being operated at Base Load. The exact RPM is 428. Anyone wishing to take exception to my replies please be specific with your qualifications (meaning no vague or nebulous responses.12:37 pm Ravi. Regards. when it's not.] > Are the following statements correct? > 1)Grid frequency falls when the demand /consumption is higher than generation. I do agree that there are problems which exist and lot of measures being taken.10:08 am > (nominal. I can only talk about people who try to suggest that normal operation occurs on grids where the frequency is almost never at rated or nominal and pass the experience off as typical of every grid. I can't judge any grid or system.I have checked the frequencies of our company owned power plant generators which are located at a total distance of 400 km. I have been told many times the system is a 50 Hz system.5 Hz the actual demand/ consumption from that machine is 125 MW as the frequency has fallen by 1% Posted by CSA on 11 April. Don't you think that this statement is like a blame at the people whom you target.Speed of Synchronous Generator 29의 33페이지 0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful. it almost always runs at something more or less--and I don't mean 0. 2012 .You can see the values as given below. Everything is relative.. > 2)If an islanded machine with 4% droop is generating full load 100 MW at 49. Every grid in the world has its merits and demerits.8 or 52. My units-59. I made the round off without realizing it could be an issue. Find one statement that contradicts to my statement. And. 0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful.8:02 pm Google the the key words that I gave you. It is actually 14 poles machine. And. And people are always wondering why their unit isn't producing rated power under these conditions--which they fail to mention in their original query--or why their unit is experiencing frequency swings when their governor has 4. and not including any questions to be answered off-line).
0% and the prime mover was producing less than rated power (I believe the load would have been 75 MW at a 103% Droop setpoint at 50 Hz before the load increased to 100 MW.) If the single prime mover and generator was operating in Isochronous Governor Mode at 100 MW and at 49.0 Hz and the load would remain at 100MW. I don't know how to accurately calculate what the load at 50. number of computer.5 Hz. (As frequency decreases. Posted by CSA on 12 April.5 from 50 when the generation was 100 MW. Again. Read it carefully. For all conditions of a single prime mover and generator supplying an electrical load.In short. If the prime mover's governor is in Droop and the load is at maximum at rated frequency and the load decreases. then the speed would decrease until the governor sensed that the rated power output or energy input to the prime mover had been reached OR the Droop Setpoint differential had been reached.0 Hz) existed at the time a single prime mover and generator were operating at the rated power output of the prime mover with the prime mover in either Droop. how much the increased load was more than the rating of the machine. In general.. If the speed decrease caused by the load exceeds a very tight deadband. 2012 . the stated conditions are not clear.7:30 pm The more I think about this (and I've thought about it a lot).). If the prime mover's governor is in Isochronous and the load is at maximum at rated frequency and the load increases..5 Hz and the prime mover was producing its rated power output. this presumes the prime mover governor was in Droop Mode and was NOT at rated power output when the load increased to 100 MW. So. proper response to the question. I don't know if the prime mover was being operated in Droop. and. as the load increased to 100 MW the differential between the actual turbine speed would decrease to 99% while the setpoint remained at 103% for a total differential of 4%--which is equal to the stated Droop. That's why there are power system studies done. I think Andrew Davidson's response below is the best response to your second statement. as well as some other critical information about the electrical distribution system that it would be possible to say how much electrical load (at 50. and the load increases with no intervening action by the governor or an operator. I think Iso or Droop mode should not matter as they only determine the governor response to a freq change while what i asked was the reason for frequency to fall to 49. 1 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful. If that is the case. AND whether or not the unit was in Droop or Isochronous Governor mode.2:55 pm Thank you for the detailed reply. since Droop is not active when Isochronous is active..5 Hz.com/thread/1267218529 2012-06-27 .or Isochronous Governor Mode if the unit was already at rated power output (100 MW) when the load increased and caused the frequency to decrease to 49.5 Hz was 100 MW. to sum up. less than 100 MW) when the electrical load increased to 100 MW (which I interpret as the rated power output of the prime mover). number and type of lights. B) what was the load before the frequency decreased to 49. independent of any other prime movers and generators. I don't know if the prime mover power output was already at rated ("full load") when the load increased to cause the frequency to decrease. Posted by Dodo on 12 April. etc. I'm sure that if the nature of the electrical load was known (number and type of motors.e. then the frequency will decrease by an amount proportional to the Droop setpoint (25 MW/% at 4% Droop) UP TO THE RATED POWER OUTPUT OF THE PRIME MOVER. then I don't believe that the Droop setpoint will have anything to do with how much the power decreases. If I recall correctly from university. Isochronous Governor mode is proportional plus integral control--up to the maximum rated power output of the prime mover. There are just too many intangibles to accurately predict the load at 50. again. the governor responds by increasing the power output of the prime mover until the speed increase reaches an upper limit (of a very tight deadband). electric motor speed will decrease and so the amount of torque produced will decrease. regardless of whether or not the machine was in Droop.5 Hz. the prime mover's governor should be operating in Isochronous Mode and the amount of droop the machine is set to operate with in Droop Mode does not come into play.) The extent is a function of the nature of the load. If the prime mover's governor is in Droop and the load is NOT at maximum. I honestly don't know how to correlate the actual electrical load to the load being produced. And. http://www. I would say the operator could then increase the energy input to the prime mover to increase the frequency of the generator to 50.5 Hz? If the prime mover was in Droop Governor Mode at part load (i. and neither the operator nor the governor changed the Droop Governor setpoint when the load increased to 100 MW. I was trying to put statement 1 in numbers. The missing information for me is: A) whether or not the single prime mover and generator was operating in Droop Governor Mode or Isochronous Governor Mode when a load change caused the frequency to decrease.0 Hz would be if the unit was being operated at rated power output if the load at 49. As well as the nature of the load. That's the key: Whether or not the prime mover was already at rated output and at rated frequency when the load increased to cause the frequency decrease. In the latter case. it's very good.or Isochronous governor mode. and. as Andrew Davidson suggests. in other words the Droop setpoint was at 103.or Isochronous Governor Mode at 49.control. at which point the speed/frequency would decrease to 99%/49. so the amount of electrical load actually decreases slightly as the frequency decreases. then I don't believe the Droop setpoint will have anything to do with how much the power decreases. I interpret the question to read that a single prime mover and generator is supplying a load. 2012 . when the "system" frequency decreases the actual amount of power being consumed by the load (the motors and lights and computers being driven by the prime mover via the generator) decreases. So there are lots of factors at work in a situation where a single prime mover and generator supplying a load was already at rated power output and the load increased to cause the frequency to decrease. But only until the maximum power output of the prime mover is achieved.0 Hz for a machine that was already operating at rated power output when the load increased and caused the frequency to drop.Speed of Synchronous Generator 30의 33페이지 > Hz the actual demand/ consumption from that machine is 125 MW as the frequency > has fallen by 1% I believe there's not enough information to provide a single.
. The readings were taken a few hours before one of our major steam turbine generators tripped off. As an analogy: if we take a nice flat and smooth piece of metal. is protected against overload by the governor.control.9:54 am This thread is amazingly stereotypical "enginerd" talk (and I mean that as a joke.. Droop Governor mode is straight proportional control. Steady state and transient slip poles. a 700MWe rated generator. In this thread I see intermixing of electrical power and mechanical power--which should not be done.. it isn't a smooth flat homogeneous solid. maths.. I've lived it and fundamentally understand what happens by experience. Posted by Namatimangan08 on 15 April.12:35 pm It is difficult to tell the whole story about how a power system works to a power system electrical engineers if they don't recognize the fact that power system dynamics are partly mechanical engineers major. Droop and governing ONLY cares about the RPM of the machine and nothing more. Secondly. What can make it to happen? Two things that I know.. I have seen both events. BUT THEY DID IT--without intricate knowledge of the vectors. The amount of the difference between the Droop Setpoint and the reference (usually turbine speed which is directly proportional to generator frequency) defines how much the energy input to the prime mover will be increased or decreased up to the rated power output of the prime mover. The plant controller will bring the generator into reverse power if protection shutdown was not triggered. 2012 . Since you have mentioned the poles can slip then what stop the two generators to rotate at difference frequencies sustainably long? My short answer at this point is system protection. I see quite often very smart people seem to overdo it with technical theories and formulas. It is harder for you to believe my point of view if you believe poles cannot slip. One of my big projects was to lead a system wide governor tuning and modeling process to stabilize the system. Negative feed forward load could only be triggered if its generator feed forward load was minus 650MW. not the other way around. But if you bring out a microscope and look at the surface.com/thread/1267218529 2012-06-27 . If mankind didn't have the math. Now." If we bust out a super powerful electron microscope (or whatever the new fancy technology is). it's a bunch of atoms floating around and electrons and protons and stuff.5:10 pm Thanks a lot CSA and Andrew.013HZ and another is at 50. Remember. The prime mover. For 5% droop set point . You know that satisfaction of getting a nagging doubt cleared? I am totally at peace now! Thanks again 1 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful. and management and operations that didn't understand fundamentals.. no type of AGC. Why these two protections shall be there in the first place if two generators cannot go to a serious slip poles? To take your challenge.Speed of Synchronous Generator 31의 33페이지 In general." Thus my point: what level does one view the mechanical and electrical phenomena? Because. can two generators on the same system have differing RPM? Maybe. Can a generator spin at 3005 on a system while others are at 3000 during steady state? Well. The problem was that none of the other units would "step on the gas pedal" because their governors were messed up in many ways. I doubt Westinghouse and Edison and their great staff would've been able to develop the electrical system over 100 years ago. I see pole forces and slip angles combined with droop--which should not be done. if it was truly as complicated as this thread makes it out to be. I'm electrical transmission expert..3Hz! Otherwise it was unlikely negative feed forward load could have triggered when the plant was doing 650MW. you may say. During transients. I was thinking the other possibility that the plant was doing AGC http://www. But again: Droop. 2012 . since the poles can slip. Not to forget overspeed protection. not insult).who knows. We installed a dedicated system just to see such event..001 it's very hard for me to agree that those numbers can be trusted completely. Posted by Dodo on 13 April. Then the RPM begins to drop as system frequency drops due to the imbalance in MW generated vs MW demanded. I'm sure we can find the phase angle of one unit is different than the other due to magnet rotor slip etc etc etc (for which I gladly admit I am NOT well versed in). "Well Gee.. The system is called "Wide Area Monitoring System (WAMS)". and varying orders of differential equations. Any informed person should know the limits of instrumentation. Isoc. When somebody says a machine is 50. You should know better than me that two generators in parallel will go out of step if their synchronism torque angles differ by greater than 180 degrees. I'd would ask them to give me the calibration records and tolerance of their RPM measuring device. if somebody says they've seen it.. The plant load prior to that tripping was 650MW.that metal object isn't solid at all. math and formulas module the physical phenomena. I can say. Posted by krush on 14 April. you are totally wrong.. Why negative feed forward load? As you mentioned a generator is only looked at its speed to adjust its "feed forward load" via its speed droop. From back calculation the speed droop for that generator should have sensed its speed had reached >52. therefore frequency bias setting will be 28MW/0. but since governing is a mechanical trait... I am not at a major disadvantage for being a mechanical guy. nature would still do what nature does. However.. you may say.1Hz. barring any special governor modes or bypasses or something similar. Each generator should have out of step protection. Why is that so? Because nothing can stop them to behave that why.. 0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful.does it matter? Remember the microscope analogy above? If we look close enough. But to the topic: I've had the pleasure (or maybe displeasure) of working on smaller islanded systems with unstable governors. "that is a nice smooth surface on that solid object"..02Hz-under steady state operation. 50 Hz system. and governing in general is a mechanical task. I have seen two areas with frequency differences by the order of 0. A true expert in this area explained it to me as system inertia making up for the imbalance of power for the short time following the unit trip. "coincidentally" due to "protection shutdown due to negative feed forward load".. Governors look at one thing. "you are wrong. Doesn't matter what.it's actually a rough bunch of cell like structures. 2012 . I do have data and graphs and information from major system disturbances where a large unit trips on a rather small grid (unit making 10-25% of power) and the MW (electrical) power goes UP while the RPM remains stable for a second or two. So there was nothing wrong with the protection logic. As long as you can agree that poles can slip then it is easier for you to see two parallel generators can have difference frequencies. Firstly transient disturbances. poor selection of inertia size of a turbine generator with respect to it own ramp rate and relative to inertia and ramp rates of other generators in the system.
) Thus we start to see why frequency floats when all else is held constant on the grid.6Hz. all motors on the grid slow down by a factor equal to the loss of power to the overall grid. to maintain system frequency at the nominal frequency whether during steady state or calculated transient load change.. 2 out of 2 members thought this post was helpful.control.. Normally our UFLS shall not trigger if loss of generation is less than 800MW. Maybe there was a poster here tried to suggest it was a made up story.g. and all other generation is already outputting maximally? --> The answer is. This simplify the explanation about how a power system works a lot. There was no such higher frequency being captured by the WAMS. As you can expect the system frequency felt from 50 to 49... Conservation of Energy is missing from this discussion! Let's think about the demand for a minute: What happens to demand as frequency drifts? .. Conservation of Energy is >missing from this discussion! I have tried to go along this line a few times.. i. 2012 . If P_m=P_e. or a generator falls out of service. Everyone is focusing on the generators.. parts of demand not frequency-related) -> These do not drift with frequency. if we extrapolate the other direction to higher frequencies we imagine a larger amount of power used by the motor as the frequency rises. There is no such thing of continuous perfect steady state condition. a DC circuit. Posted by Andrew Davidson on 7 April. *THE GOLDEN QUESTION* What happens when a light bulb is turned on. This is expected since WAMS data at the moment measures frequency at HV side..g. --> When a generator falls out of service. no resistance on the circuit). That was because some other reasons that I don't want to include in this discussion. Here is the simplest energy balance equation to describe how power system works using a proven scientific method. e. I don't know due to some reasons not so many posters here like to go along this line. then the system is called to operate under a perfect steady state or dw/dt=0. There was another "interesting event" that I have already shared regarding a 28MW hydro turbine generator went overspeed if its load was raised more than 17MW. At least not at that particular generator side.5Iw^2 Where Int = integration function P_m = mechanical power P_e = electrical power w I t = angular velocity Eq(1) = second moment of mass (Electrical engineers normally use symbol J) = time Lower integration limit for the above equation can be assigned as zero. http://www. Posted by Namatimangan08 on 15 April.. 2012 . It has improved by 1MW since then. The truth is that it is real. before and after the event. This is how energy is conserved.. Not by droop. Four times in a single day. But still long to go to achieve its rated maximum. **it's the only way for the grid to maintain conservation of energy on a system with many motors.. If this was the case that the feed forward load could have been due to the AGC-ACE command. So that my calculated generator frequency can be wrong. Int(P_m)dt -Int (P_e)dt = 0. no power. It is a matter of fact controlling a power system can be dedicated to managing the value for RHS of Eq (1)..11:40 pm >I cannot help but feel a fundamental >point is being missed in this entire >discussion. The same generator now is still limiting its load up to 18MW since the problem has not been fixed yet. Power output of AC induction motors is proportional to frequency they're run (consider the extreme case of a 0 frequency AC circuit.AC induction motors speed-up and slow-down as grid frequency rises and falls.** What about non-motor demand? (e. 0 out of 1 members thought this post was helpful. Higher integration limit could be at any time we opt to measure energy balance of the system.Speed of Synchronous Generator 32의 33페이지 during that event. the light bulb takes power away from all the motors running elsewhere on the grid.e. We had Under Frequency Load Shed (UFLS) protection operated. run on an AC induction motor---what happens? no spin.. It was under manual load control.com/thread/1267218529 2012-06-27 . thus we rely on there being AC motors on the grid in order for frequency drift to enable conservation of energy. As long as T_m-T_e does matter much to the system dynamics stability then who cares? More often many people like to think in such a manner that the RHS of Eq(1) is zero. Everyone is focusing on the >generators. it was mentioned that the plant was not under AGC. They slow down.3:29 am > I have confusion as how increase in electrical load lead to decrease in generator rpm? And why if we increase > the generator rpm (by injecting more fuel in gas turbines) increase the power? I cannot help but feel a fundamental point is being missed in this entire discussion. But from the trip report.
This action might not be possible to undo. Are you sure you want to continue?
We've moved you to where you read on your other device.
Get the full title to continue reading from where you left off, or restart the preview.