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Appandai Raj

Latin words from Tamil...???


Is it accepted that the Latin word Oryza and English word Rice are from Tamil Arisi...???
Even I suppose English Ginger comes from Tamil Inji...???

21/12/2008
Ramakrishnan
What is the earliest attestation of arici in tamil?

When did tamils start to pronounce 'c' as 's'?

23/12/2008
Appandai Raj
C and S
The pronounciation of c and s has no difference,... Even in English 'rice' and 'rise' are
pronounced as same... Arici and Arisi has no difference in pronounciation....

24/12/2008
Unceasing
C and S
Ramakrishnan is talking about Cha and Sa

Sa and Sha are the Grantha inclusion into Tamil to accomodate Sanskrit loan words.

To understand whether Arici Rice) and Inchi (Giinger) were introuduced to the Romans from
India or did they directly go from China?

To understand this we have to see the earliest references to Rice and Ginger in Dravidian
literatures and others. Chai as used for tea is directly decended from the Chinese Tche. In
Tamil it is Thea and it is Tea in English.

The Tea example is used here as to give an idea of how Thea and Tea are more closely
resembling, but Tea came to South India through the Europeans.

Simillarly the use of the word Pariah as a synonym for untouchable/ outcast is used more
often than necessary but in Tamil it meaans a drummer but in Hindi it will mean the "others"
( Apna - Paraya). The context used for Pariah in the lexicon is to denote an outcaste person.
But in Tamilnadu it wiill not be used in the context of an outcast except by colonised,
immature politician like Subramani Swamy.

That is why one has to look at many other things when dealing with linguistics.

25/12/2008
delete
இரவி/రవ/Ravi
"When did Tamils start to pronounce 'c' as 's'? "

Tamils pronounce unanimously ch as ch and s as s according to common rules. They never


pronounced pachai as passai. They pronounced always Arisi as Arisi. K,Ch,T,Th,P have duel
sounds nature according to usage. Nakam will be pronounced as Nagam and likewise, ch,T, Th,
and P.

But in Sanskrit Ri and Lu which are supposed as vowels are sometimes modified as
consonants. e.g. NiRithi as nairuthi

aakaara (Skt)= (masc) form, shape

aakritiini (Skt)= forms.

In English too, the consonant "c" is pronounced as k, s, ks (vaccine), sometimes as ch.

25/12/2008
ಸುಮಂತ Sumanth
I was beginning to wonder about words like 'Selva' in Tamizh becoming 'Cheluva' in Kannada.
Kannada, AFAIK doesnt display the ch <-> s interchangeability. Telugu, in areas of Tamizh
influence, also seems to posses the ch <-> s interchangeability - E.g: "Em chEsEdi/ Em
sEsEdi".

26/12/2008
Nrupatunga
I was beginning to wonder about words like 'Selva' in Tamizh becoming 'Cheluva' in Kannada.
Kannada, AFAIK doesnt display the ch <-> s interchangeability. Telugu, in areas of Tamizh
influence, also seems to posses the ch <-> s interchangeability - E.g: "Em chEsEdi/ Em
sEsEdi".

No,Even kannada shows the ch->s behaviour but rarely.

Ex: sanke a tooll used to dig mud is referred as chanke by my friend who hails from arisikere.

I remember hearing few more such examples,but unable to recollect them.But my point is that
even kannada is not completely out of this behavior.But this behaviour is not universal among
all kannada dialects.

26/12/2008
Ramakrishnan
Tamils pronounce unanimously ch as ch and s as s according to common rules.

Tamils have used the phonemes ch (ச) and s (ஸ) interchangeably, since medieval times. In
old tamil, only the phoneme ch was recognized. Perhaps this has been the case for certain
regional dialects of telugu and kannada as well.

A good example of this confusion exists in the words tiru-chentur (location) and sentil (deity
of the location, a name for skanda). Originally the words would have been (tiru) chentur and
chentil. However due to this cha/sa confusion chentil also came to be pronounced as sentil.

Tamil does not have any native sibilants (sa, sha, śa) which are there in Sanskrit. So there
cannot have been any native words where the original pronounciation was sa! For these native
dravidian words which are pronounced as 'sa' in tamil, it has to be only cha originally.

They never pronounced pachai as passai.

Agreed. Not all words had suffered this change. That much is certain.

They pronounced always Arisi as Arisi.

I am bound to think that since Arisi could not have been a native pronounciation (because of
sa), and also because "arichi" is also ruled out, it was not a tamil/dravidian word to begin with.
It may have been a greek word (oryza) imported into tamil at a time when the cha=sa
conversion was already in place in tamil.

Nakam will be pronounced as Nagam

In Skt it is nakham. In tamil, it gets converted to the nearest phoneme (as there is no kha).
Thus in written tamil it is nakam, while in spoken tamil it is nagam.

If you see the ka, kha, ga... order; it is interesting to note that the kha becomes ka in written
tamil and ga in spoken tamil, while the original is kha.

But in Sanskrit Ri and Lu which are supposed as vowels are sometimes modified as
consonants.

They are not sometimes vowels and sometimes consonants. The vowels ru and lu are separate
from the consonants ra and la.

28/12/2008
Srikant
They never pronounced pachai as passai.

Agreed. Not all words had suffered this change. That much is certain.
Words with cc and with n~c (alone) have not suffered this change. For example, an~cutal,
mUccu, etc. Words beginning with c are also pronounced with "c" rather than "s", like "collu"
(tell), by some people. These might have been "protected" by the conditional doubling done
when writing: "adaic col" (tell that), for instance. (This doubling is probably done to keep the
consonant from being voiced, but for c, it's done more preserving.)

Words in which -c follows a vowel, like icai, arici, pEcu, pAcam, (music, rice, talk,
affection/attachment) have all suffered this change.

28/12/2008
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இரவி/రవ/Ravi
"A good example of this confusion exists in the words tiru-chentur (location) and sentil (deity
of the location, a name for skanda). Originally the words would have been (tiru) chentur and
chentil. However due to this cha/sa confusion chentil also came to be pronounced as sentil"
As i said earlier, it is due to and as per grammar rule and restriction only.
"Tamil does not have any native sibilants (sa, sha, śa) which are there in Sanskrit. So there
cannot have been any native words where the original pronounciation was sa! For these native
dravidian words which are pronounced as 'sa' in tamil, it has to be only cha originally"
let it be. however, (sa, sha, śa) surely not sanskrit patented one. moreover they are not at all
necessary in Tamil. words starting with śa are rare not only in Tamil but also in other dravidian
languages, (cf. in sanskrit, No words start with thha (Th varga 2 letter).
"I am bound to think that since Arisi could not have been a native pronounciation (because of
sa), and also because "arichi" is also ruled out, it was not a tamil/dravidian word to begin with.
It may have been a greek word (oryza) imported into tamil at a time when the cha=sa
conversion was already in place in tamil".
it is clearly mentioned in oxford dictionary as origin of oriental origion.
origin is
al(small things)-A:kam (grain=Tamil)-(nut is big one compared to grain)
a:kam->Akkam (grain=Tamil)
al->(ar)->ari (rice = Tamil)
ari-arisi (rice = Tamil)
arisi- rice , O.Fr. ris, It. riso, L. oriza (cf. It. riso), Gk. oryza "rice,"
risotto
rice cooked in broth with meat and cheese, 1884, from It., from riso "rice" (see rice).
ari ->vari(rice = Tamil,Telugu)
Vari->varagu (varagu Rice=Tamil)
Varagu->(Veragu)->vireegi (rice = Tamil)
Vireegi->Vreehi (rice=Skt), Pashto vrize, O.Pers. brizi (z=h natural changes)
Vari->(VaRRi)->Vatham (Paddy), Pady (rice in the straw=Malay), Paddy (English
இரவி/రవ/Ravi
"But in Sanskrit Ri and Lu which are supposed as vowels are sometimes modified as
consonants.

They are not sometimes vowels and sometimes consonants. The vowels ru and lu are separate
from the consonants ra and la. "

then pls explain these modifications.

NiRithi as nairuthi

aakaara (Skt)= (masc) form, shape

aakRitiini (Skt)= forms.

kRipa->karpanya

MathRu (-bhasha)->Mathrika

31/12/2008
Ramakrishnan
How about vrihi (skt) --> vari-hi (telugu) --> ari-si (tamil) --> ari (malayalam)

Telugu lost the final hi while in tamil it became si. Tamil lost the initial v retained by telugu.
Malayalam displays both characteristics.

31/12/2008
Srikant
@ பாவாண ர
In Sanskrit, the following sandhi rules apply:

u + a = va,
i + a = ya,

similarly we also have


a + R = ar.

If the vowels u and i can be called complete vowels even though they can transform into
consonants, so can R.

01/01/2009
delete
இரவி/రవ/Ravi
"How about vrihi (skt) --> vari-hi (telugu) --> ari-si (tamil) --> ari (malayalam)

Telugu lost the final hi while in tamil it became si. Tamil lost the initial v retained by telugu.
Malayalam displays both characteristics"

That is totally obscure. For the sake of argument, if I am wrong, Pls tell me, what is the
etymology of Vrihi in Sanskrit? From which, and how it was derived.

Vrihi form is not at all attested in IE languages. But Arisi form is found in IE languages (oryza
and not vriha)

01/01/2009
delete
இரவி/రవ/Ravi
"If the vowels u and i can be called complete vowels even though they can transform into
consonants, so can R. "

Except sanscrit, consonant transformation into vowels is unaware in other languages. ha ha.

01/01/2009
Aniket Sengupta#
topic starter
orza is rice in latin (oryza sativa)

but ginger is ZINGIBER in latin(zingiber officianle)

1 Jan
delete
இரவி/రవ/Ravi
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=ginger&searchmode=none
ginger
O.E. gingifer, from M.L. gingiber, from L. zingiberi, from Gk. zingiberis, from Prakrit (Middle
Indic) singabera, from Skt. srngaveram, from srngam "horn" + vera- "body," so called from
the shape of its root. But this may be Skt. folk-etymology, and the word may be from an
ancient Dravidian name that also produced the Malayalam(i.e.Tamil) name for the spice, inchi-
ver, from inchi "root." Cf. gin (v.).

1 Jan
Unceasing
Rice and Oryza
Ravigaru said:

ari ->vari(rice = Tamil,Telugu)


Vari->varagu (varagu Rice=Tamil)
Varagu->(Veragu)->vireegi (rice = Tamil)
Vireegi->Vreehi (rice=Skt), Pashto vrize, O.Pers. brizi (z=h natural changes)
Vari->(VaRRi)->Vatham (Paddy), Pady (rice in the straw=Malay), Paddy (English)

It was a very nice and easy way to trace the metamorphosis of Arici from Varagu and the
corruption from Varagu to Vreehi.

Ramkrishnan said :

that I am bound to think that since Arisi could not have been a native pronounciation (because
of sa), and also because "arichi" is also ruled out, it was not a tamil/dravidian word to begin
with. It may have been a greek word (oryza) imported into tamil at a time when the cha=sa
conversion was already in place in tamil.

How could the buyer of Rice from Greece give a name to a product of the producer? China and
India and the Southeat Asia has been the Rice bowl of the world and it can only get corrupted
from Asian name to a Greek one and not the other way round. But I do agree that words can
be introduced the native from a foreign influence like 'Saatham' is used for cooked rice in
Tamil, it is Chooru or Sooru. People tend to use Saatham more than Chooru in Tamil but in
Malayalam Chooru is used though it has more Skt. influence.

2 Jan
Srikant
I think that in 'arici' and such words, the original pronounciation for c would have been j,
which is a close relative of g. This is from extrapolating the norms for k, T, R, t and p.

3 Jan
Ramakrishnan
The etymology for arisi is most clearly attested in Tamil itself.
1. விரகி Viriki (from vrihi), see http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-
bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.12:1:1587.tamillex
2. Then விரஇ virIi (also from vrihi), see http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-
bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.12:1:1634.tamillex
3. Finally வர vari and அர ari. Vari also means tax (in olden days the kings used to levy tax
as a part of rice harvested by each farmer), see http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-
bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.11:1:5138.tamillex
Thus it is clear that the dravidian words for rice originates in vrihi
Ramakrishnan
It may be true that oryza is derived from ari/arisi, but ari/arisi itself is derived from vrihi (see
above post)

4 Jan
delete
இரவி/రవ/Ravi
"2. Then விரஇ virIi (also from vrihi), see http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-
bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.12:1:1634.tamillex"
as already said, the Madras Tamil Lexicon was codified by some Tamil ignorant people.
in the cited website
விரஇ virīi
, n. < vrīhi. See விரகி, 1. நஙைக மார விரஇ யறறவர (சீவக. 89)..
the meaning of virīi is not rice but expansion. that poem states about breadth of chest alone
not the rice.
what a quote?

4 Jan
delete
இரவி/రవ/Ravi
"3. Finally வர vari and அர ari. Vari also means tax (in olden days the kings used to levy tax
as a part of rice harvested by each farmer), see http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-
bin/philologic/getobject.pl?c.11:1:5138.tamillex
Thus it is clear that the dravidian words for rice originates in vrihi. "
வர&sup7; vari
, n. < அர². cf. vrīhi. Paddy; ெநல. (பிங.) எடததவர மறததினிலிடட (தனிபபா. i, 354,
41).
cf in that citation means comparision(a latin word) and not derivation. moreover in that
citation, taxation based upon rice is not meant for.
So according to you, rice harvest is the basic reason for taxation. if so, south India esp Tamil
Nadu alone is named for rice cultivation as against Wheat of North India.
The Madras Law lexicon is codified illogically by Vaiyapuri Pillai and several Particular
community people who know nothing about Tamil etymology (hearsay recording).

4 Jan
delete
இரவி/రవ/Ravi
வர&sup7; vari
, n. < அர²
in your citation, it is clearly shown that the word வர (vari) is derivied from அர² (ari).

but according to you, from the word vari is derived from அர²(ari).

which one is correct according to you?

5 Jan (6 days ago)


Ramakrishnan
So according to you, rice harvest is the basic reason for taxation. if so, south India esp Tamil
Nadu alone is named for rice cultivation as against Wheat of North India.

Erroneous presumption, rice cultivation was highest in the Indo-Gangetic plains in the past, it
also spread to south-India.

Wheat cultivation in Punjab and surrounding regions (instead of rice) is of recent origin.

5 Jan (6 days ago)


Ramakrishnan
Vireegi->Vreehi (rice=Skt), Pashto vrize, O.Pers. brizi (z=h natural changes)

Word-final gi cannot change to hi in sanskrit. But hi definitely could (and did) change to gi/ki
in dravidian (specially tamil).

Examples:
Drohi (skt) --> turoki (tam) = cheater
Deha (skt) --> tEkam (tam) = body

Vrihi (skt) to brizi (OP) is proper.

Also note vrihi must have been pronounced in sanskrit originally more like warihi/uarihi (this is
how it is attested in pali) and not as vrihi (which is how it is written in sanskrit today)

So at once it is clear how this warihi became vari(si) and vari(ki).

5 Jan (6 days ago)


delete
இரவி/రవ/Ravi
"Vrihi (skt) to brizi (OP) is proper."

for the sake of argument, let it be. then how Vrihi was derived in Sanskrit. (if you can't you
can avail help from

al(small things)-A:kam (grain=Tamil)-(nut is big one compared to grain)


a:kam->Akkam (grain=Tamil)
al->(ar)->ari (rice = Tamil)
ari-arisi (rice = Tamil)
from the words A:kam->Akkam, Akki (kannada word for rice) was derived. do you say that
word "akki" also derived from Vrihi. but that is also not correct.

6 Jan (5 days ago)


Ramakrishnan
Akki (kannada word for rice) was derived. do you say that word "akki" also derived from Vrihi.
but that is also not correct.

The most probable etymology for akki (meaning rice) in Kannada is

Varihi --> variki --> ar(i)ki --> akki

then how Vrihi was derived in Sanskrit.

I dont know. Perhaps from proto-munda or Indus language?

6 Jan (5 days ago)


Nrupatunga
Varihi --> variki

hi-.ki change looks unlikely.also kannada has the habbit to change from va-ba and not va to a.
So i am doubtfull about this change.

6 Jan (5 days ago)


Ramakrishnan
hi-.ki change looks unlikely

It is very widely attested in Tamil, and since kannada (and telugu) adopted the phoneme set
of sanskrit after their split from tamil, we can unfortunately only use tamil for explaining the
change from hi to ki.

Kannada wouldnt have had that necessity since hi exists as a distinct phoneme in kannada.
Therefore the change from varihi to variki must have preceeded the kannada-tamil split.
ಸುಮಂತ Sumanth
Ramakrishnan wrote:
Also note vrihi must have been pronounced in sanskrit originally more like warihi/uarihi (this is
how it is attested in pali) and not as vrihi (which is how it is written in sanskrit today)

So at once it is clear how this warihi became vari(si) and vari(ki).

The more I look at how words look in Samskrita and their transformations (or derivations, if
you please) in Pali, I'm tempted to believe that Samskrita and Pali were diglossic. We've
discussed somewhere that Samskrita could have been a register used predominantly by royals
and scholars, and Pali more by the layman on the street - but if they indeed were - why have
they been treated as two separate languages? Diglossi-a (or is it digloss-ism?) exists in
perhaps all languages, but the most telling contemporary example is perhaps modern-day
Tamizh. I'd like to compare Samskrita to Centamizh and Pali to spoken, everyday Tamizh.
Now, examining the comparison purely from the prism of diglossia, am I ending up comparing
apples and oranges?!

6 Jan (5 days ago)


Nrupatunga
Kannada wouldnt have had that necessity since hi exists as a distinct phoneme in kannada.
Therefore the change from varihi to variki must have preceeded the kannada-tamil split.

Then there will be lot of questions asked.

did dravidians cultivated Rice as early as 7th century BC(time frame where experts estimate
the kannada tamil split)

I know that oldest reference to word Idli - fermented rice comes from a kannada literature of
10th century. So definatly people would have been knowing about rice much earlier than that.

But 5th to 7th Century BC - Not sure.

6 Jan (5 days ago)


delete
இரவி/రవ/Ravi
then how Vrihi was derived in Sanskrit.
I dont know. Perhaps from proto-munda or Indus language?"
But according to you it might be proto-munda or indus but Tamil Should not. what an so called
Tamilian attitude. surely no Sanskrit Pandithas could be able to explain Vrihi origin, since it is
not belonging to it and in reality it is derived from Tamil as said earlier. The form of Vrihi is not
attested in IE languages and only the form of rice. you may seek help from Thillai
Moovayiraththavar of Chidambaram.
"hi-.ki change looks unlikely.also kannada has the habbit to change from va-ba and not va to
a. So i am doubtfull about this change. "
Nrupatunga is right.
"Also note vrihi must have been pronounced in sanskrit originally more like warihi/uarihi (this
is how it is attested in pali) and not as vrihi (which is how it is written in sanskrit today)"
There is no such attestation in Pali language.
Vīhi : (page 644)
99 (jātiyo); J i.395 (˚yojana-- sata); v.36 (˚ratana-- sata); DhA i.8; ii.91 (˚yojana-- sataŋ).
Pali:Vīhi
Vīhi [cp. Vedic vrīhi] rice, paddy Vin iv.264 (as one of the 7 kinds of āmaka -- dhañña); J
i.429; iii.356; Miln 102, 267; Vism 383 (˚tumba); DhA i.125; iii.374 (˚piṭaka).
pls ref:
http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philologic/contextualize.pl?p.3.pali.1312428
if Ramakrishnan is correct about change of h in to k, after referring about Pali: Vihi, it should
be in dravidian languages as Vikki. But there is no attestation like that in any of the Indian
Languges. if any, please cite it.

7 Jan (4 days ago)


Ramakrishnan
There is no such attestation in Pali language.

I think there is, although it is not listed in the Pali Lexicon. So how much yarn is needed to
spin vIhi from arisi?

7 Jan (4 days ago)


Ramakrishnan
Only Varihi (or Vrihi) satisfactorily explains all other developments.

From varihi (skt) to variki (drav) to ariki to akki is quite natural.


varihi to arihi to arisi is also natural
varihi to vari is also natural
varihi to arihi to ari is also quite natural

"virai" (in tamil) which I presume to be also derived from vrihi also later came to be used as a
stock word for any kind of seed that is sown (not just rice).

7 Jan (4 days ago)


delete
இரவி/రవ/Ravi
"virai" (in tamil) which I presume to be also derived from vrihi also later came to be used as a
stock word for any kind of seed that is sown (not just rice)."

Dear Ram, thanks for giving the such a wonderful corroborative citation and support for my
argument, as it will attest my logic claim that the word rice is derived from the word Arici
having the origin in AL from which a:kam (grains)akki (kannada=Rice) are derived.

Not from Specific word a common word is derived. as only from the common word, a specific
word could be derived. as oil is derived from word oliva and the same was appliled to all kinds
of oils whether it is olive or not. Cf. petrol, ethanol etc, Tamil Ennei is used for all kinds of
oils[nallennai, kadalaiennei, vilakkennei, thaengaayennei] /manchi noone, gulaabi noone,
chenaga noone etc of Telugu.

From the words a:kam and virai, the words, rice, arisi, akki and even vireegi/vrihi (possibility
of origin from varagu could not be also ruled out)

virai->(viraigi)-> vireegi->vreehi (Skt), Vihi(pali)


Al->A;Kam->Akkam->Akki (kannada=rice)
Al->ari, arisi->rice (English), etc.

7 Jan (4 days ago)


delete
இரவி/రవ/Ravi
"only Varihi (or Vrihi) satisfactorily explains all other developments."

The so called Varihi form is not found in Sanskrit(vedic/pali) and it is merely a supposition.
8 Jan (3 days ago)
Ramakrishnan
Possible etymology for varihi/vrihi
Varihi/Vrihi seems to be related to varI-/vAri (water/river) cf. "Deepwater Rice".

One more point - No change-trail is attested in Sanskrit/Prakrits for development of the word
vrIhI/varIhI

All the development/changes are attested only in Dravidian languages, which is also a strong
indication that the borrowing was done by dravidian.

If IA borrowed it from some dravidian form, it should have retained some form that is close to,
say arisi. "Arisi" itself cannot be native dravidian owing to lack of sibilants in early Dravidian as
I pointed out earlier. Enough said.

8 Jan (3 days ago)


Ramakrishnan
A PIE root???
*wrīg'h is a PIE root which stands for grain (probably rice). Could someone check and
confirm?

8 Jan (3 days ago)


delete
இரவி/రవ/Ravi
All the development/changes are attested only in Dravidian languages, which is also a strong
indication that the borrowing was done by dravidian."
. vrihi form is not found in all IA languages. don't try to hide the big pumpkin in a small
lunch box.
"Arisi" itself cannot be native dravidian owing to lack of sibilants in early Dravidian as I pointed
out earlier."
as i already proved, the word Vrihi in Sanskrit is derived from Tamil word arisi and arisi form
alone is retained in IE languages and not the vrihi.
al(small things)-A:kam (grain=Tamil)-(nut is big one compared to grain)
a:kam->Akkam (grain=Tamil)->Akki (Kannada=Tamil), Akkadham (unbroken rice),Akkadhai-
>Akshatha (Skt), Akshinthulu (Tel)
al->(ar)->ari (rice = Tamil,Malayalam)
ari->arisi (rice = Tamil)
arisi-> rice , O.Fr. ris, It. riso, L. oriza (cf. It. riso), Gk. oryza "rice,"
in support of my argument, you have cited Virai (grain) which is in accordance with Akkam
(grain).
Vil->Virai (grain=Tamil, Malayalam)
Virai->(Viraigi)->Vireegi (rice =Tamil)->Vrihi (SKT), Vihi [compare this with a:kam->Akkam
(grain=Tamil)->Akki (Kannada=Tamil)]
Virai->(ViRai)-(ViTTu)->vithu, Vidhai (seed=Tamil), Vedha, (grain,seed)=Telugu)->bedhe
Vithu->Vichu->beejamu (Telugu)->beeja (skt)
Vil-Veeyam (rice=Tamil)->beeyamu (rice=Telugu)->beeya (Kannada)
Vithu->Vichu-> Veesam(grain=Tamil)
"*wrīg'h is a PIE root which stands for grain (probably rice). Could someone check and
confirm?"
Beeja and vrihi forms of Skt are not available in IE languages, as they are native indian words
derived from Tamil. you could not find the answer for so called *wrīg'h as a PIE root for rice.
now you are taking the stand that from the meaning of grain, the word rice was derived in
confirmity with my logic.