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(1) Winning within!...
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Winning within! Best: ...the movement is divided, but it’s not divided for any good reason. It’s divided because too many in the movement are not willing to recognize that their fellow secularists can be mistaken without thereby being bigots; that their fellow secularists can have different understandings of the implications of feminism without being misogynists or “sister-punishers”; and that their fellow secularists can have can have different perceptions of the problem of harassment without being feminazis.
Divisiveness Within the Secular Movement | Center for Inquiry www.centerforinquiry.net The mission of the Center for Inquiry is to foster a secular society based on science, reason, freedom of inquiry, and humanist values. Like · Comment · Unfollow Post · Share Josh Wysocki, Dylan Ringwood and 2 others like this. Martin Wagner And it's only divided for those reasons, and not because people keeping sending Rebecca and Jen and Greta emails saying "Get raped and die you fucking cunt." 4 hours ago · Like Justin Vacula Also good: Merely identifying yourself as an atheist and posting a comment on a blog doesn't make you part of the movement. ...I can say with confidence that at the national level none of the movement organizations condones hatred and threats toward women. I believe the same can be said for the regional groups, although I am less confident simply because I do not have first-hand knowledge for all these groups. Furthermore, our resources compared with other progressive organizations are also (usually) much smaller. For example, Human Rights Campaign does great work; it also has annual revenue of over $30 million. There is no way we could—and no reason we should—try to compete with them. It makes no sense to duplicate their efforts. And it’s not just that we can’t effectively “me too” the work of other organizations working on social justice issues; we at CFI don’t want to. We are not primarily LGBT advocates, women’s rights advocates, or healthcare advocates. We are advocates for a secular society, one of the fruits of which, we firmly believe, will be a society with rational, evidence-based policies and much less religion-fueled prejudice. We also believe our work on this objective takes priority over other social justice objectives, however worthy they may be. ... even if the incidence of harassment within the movement and its seriousness were overstated (the reality is we don’t have reliable statistics, so anecdotal evidence is all anyone can point to), this would not imply that those emphasizing the problem are engaging in unacceptable conduct. They can be mistaken without being self-centered fanatics. 4 hours ago · Like · 1 Chat (182) Justin Vacula Martin, do you consider these people who send these e-mails to be part of the movement? Random internet trolls? Representative of the movement? Something else? 4 hours ago · Like Zac Sloss Martin - those kind of hateful messages *aren't* dividing the movement - in the same way someone committing a crime doesn't divide the country. It's just someone being a troll on the internet. 4 hours ago · Like · 1 Martin Wagner I don't consider them representative of the movement, but I also think it's naive to dismiss them as nothing more than trollish outliers when their behavior is DEMONSTRABLY having ... S ee M ore 4 hours ago · Like Martin Wagner @Zac Sloss: I think that's demonstrably untrue. And it's easy to dismiss something as mere trolling when you aren't on the receiving end of hundreds of abusive and threatening emai... S ee M ore 4 hours ago · Like Zac Sloss I always thought 'trolling' was defined as pretty much what these people are doing. I suppose the meaning of 'trolling' is pretty vague. It *is* a problem. Threats, insults, name-c... S ee M ore 4 hours ago · Edited · Like Martin Wagner And yet, it IS both a problem AND divisive. It may not be dividing you, or Lindsay, but it is dividing the
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(1) Winning within!...
people being targeted, and I wish more people would put themselves in others' shoes about that. 4 hours ago · Like Karla Porter Most everything I saw regarding this situation belongs on Atheist Inside Edition. 4 hours ago · Like Zac Sloss I thought we were talking about it dividing the movement as a whole - not dividing individuals. I don't even know what the latter would entail... 4 hours ago · Edited · Like Justin Vacula I am intrigued by various questions which have been floating around throughout my day in recent times. Answers from anyone would be appreciated: - Why is it the case that some women (or men) who receive hate/hate mail talk about 'leaving the movement' and others do not? - Why is it the case that some women who blog -- especially those more prominent than those who receive hate -do not receive hate? - Why is it case that the response to hate and hate mail from many -- when it is just limited to the internet and doesn't cross over into real life threats or similar -- is not 'Oh, look, this person can't be taken seriously?' 4 hours ago · Like · 1 Martin Wagner m-/ A movement is *made up of* individuals. When prominent and dedicated individuals are alienated from a movement they've supported as the result of a sustained campaign of hate and abuse, that divides the movement. This shouldn't be complicated stuff. Too many people are saying "Well, there isn't a problem that's affecting *me*, therefore there isn't a problem." 4 hours ago · Like Justin Vacula Obviously, not everyone can effectively cope with criticism, trolling, hate mail, and the like (note they are not the same). Some are not suited, for whatever reason, with dealing with what they see as high stress situations for example. It seems quite uncontroversial to state that the internet can be a nasty place for various reasons. If people can't handle this, I would advise for them to simply cease blogging or whatever they do if they are aware of the negatively which may come and they can't deal with. This is similar, I would say, or people who just 'KNOW' they can't deal with many people in a room whether they have some sort of social phobia, image issues, or whatever. So be it. I get it. They don't engage in activities which may result in, say, panic attacks. They try to avoid high stress situations and don't engage in these activities. Some, seeking to improve, learn how to better cope, perhaps get therapy, etc. 4 hours ago · Like Martin Wagner Justin, are you implying that only some responses to threats and abuse are valid and others are not? That the only proper approach to getting 200 emails from people who talk about raping and killing you is to blow them off as pranks and bad jokes, and if you're disturbed or frightened or freaked out by them, then you're the one with the problem? I fail to see the point of these questions, other than as a way to continue to dismiss the concerns of the women getting hated on. 4 hours ago · Like Justin Vacula I don't see trolling stopping any time soon whether it is nasty comments in comment sections of local newspapers or blogs or nasty emails. 4 hours ago · Like · 1 Martin Wagner "If people can't handle this, I would advise for them to simply cease blogging or whatever they do if they are aware of the negatively which may come and they can't deal with." And she wouldn't have gotten raped if she hadn't been wearing that short skirt either, right? Justin, when will you develop the empathy to realize that the people to blame when an abusive environment exists are the abusers, and not the people who just aren't tough enough to handle it? 4 hours ago · Like Justin Vacula Martin, I don't appreciate your uncharitable reading of my comments here. I ask questions because I am interested in issues and want to identify ideas people have behind their reasoning. Such is the Socratic method. 4 hours ago · Like · 1 Martin Wagner I couldn't care less how "uncharitable" you think I was. Was I WRONG? If so, show me where I missed your point. 4 hours ago · Like Justin Vacula If you're going to reduce my questions and methods to 'you're blaming the victim' and 'dismissing the concerns of women,' I don't want further conversation with you. I don't think you're trying to have a productive conversation here but rather entering it with the worst possible interpretations while assigning motives for whatever reason. 4 hours ago · Like · 1 Bethany Guarilia What are the "implications of feminism?" 3 hours ago via mobile · Like Zac Sloss Of course the movement is made up of individuals. I was just responding to you saying "it may not be dividing you or Lindsay". Well, if we're part of this movement then surely it w... S ee M ore 3 hours ago · Like
(1) Winning within!...
Martin Wagner Justin, let me clarify what I'm getting at, and then I'll disengage if that's what you wish. Classic victim-blaming is when women are told "don't get raped," when what should be h... S ee M ore 3 hours ago · Like Zac Sloss Isn't saying something like "expect trolls - it comes with the territory" a bit like "watch out for pickpockets"? Just as you aren't blaming the victims of pickpocketing when you say that, neither are you blaming the victims of trolling when you tell them that trolling is to be expected. 3 hours ago · Like · 1 Martin Wagner Well, it's normal for people to advise each other of caution in life, of course. But let's say someone *does* get mugged or pickpocketed, even when they've heeded your warnings and done what they can to watch out for themselves. The crime is still the pickpocket's fault, right? 3 hours ago · Like Zac Sloss Well I suppose there's moral blame and practical blame. So I wouldn't say the victim did anything immoral in that case, and so the moral blame lies solely with the pickpocket. But if the victim left their pockets exposed with money hanging out, I would say that they were very imprudent and might 'blame' them in another sense - to the tune of "why were you so careless?!". 3 hours ago · Like Justin Vacula In 2009, as a result of my church/state activism, I received a large amount of hate mail from Christians. Prior to this happening and my going public, I was told that I should be aware that my pursuing this matter would result in hate mail and potentially disastrous consequences. I went forward realizing this and acknowledging that I could deal with it. Some friends of mine and arguably other church/state people could not handle this...so they don't go public on these issues. It's a reasonable response and one I would advise them to follow. Not everyone has the stomach for being an activist. Of course if someone happened to attack someone physically or send a threat, that person is to blame (and not the activist). Of course the hostile climate created by Christians is a problem and not the fault of the activist. Of course, of course, of course. This acknowledged, people still need to understand themselves and what they are getting into before they do it. It's called evaluating consequences and being an adult. If one isn't prepared to deal with consequences they envision, I would advise the person to not engage in that action. 3 hours ago · Like Justin Vacula Martin, if a friend of mine came to me and said, "Hey, Justin, let me know what you think. I want to share opinions I have about current affairs on topic x, but I just couldn't bear to handle the reaction I'd get from people. I don't do well with this kind of stuff and have had problems before even when I was talking about stuff as minor as y and z," I would respond saying something like, "If that's how you'd react, I would advise you to not share your opinions. I wouldn't want you to be upset by what people have to say. Instead maybe you can do a, b, and c, working for cause d, e, and f or even help me do g, h, j by k, l, m." 3 hours ago · Like Zac Sloss I agree with that Justin - but it would be a shame if someone if some thin-skinned person with something interesting to say was put off publishing their thoughts online because they couldn't cope with the potentially toxic online environment. Whereas there might be no other solution apart from quitting, it would still be a regrettable situation (I suspect you'd agree though). 3 hours ago · Like Justin Vacula Right, it indeed does suck. It's a shame that the actions of other people, in so many areas, would stop someone from doing something they wanted to do. 3 hours ago · Like Dylan Ringwood "We are not primarily LGBT advocates, women’s rights advocates, or healthcare advocates. We are advocates for a secular society..." Hear hear. 45 minutes ago · Like Write a comment...
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