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IN THE UNITED S' XrES DISTRICT
IN AND FOR THE CENTR. IJ DISTRICT OF
1------1­
PREFERRED
,
INC. ,
PlaintifJ,
-vs-
II
CITY OF LOS ANGELES, a
municipal corporation, DEPARTMEN'I
OF WATER AND POWER, a m1J!I;,icipal
utility, et al., I
__________--...__________ __ ndan1r_'___________
COURT
CALIFORNIA
No. 835846 CBM(BX)
l
il
\1
200 North Main Street
16th Floor
Los Angeles, California
I'
Monday, June 6, 1988
1\
1\
10:20 a.m .
\:
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Deposition 0;
ROBERT
Taken by:
THOMAS G.I LEWELLYN, ESQ.
Reported by STEPHANIE!A. SHEARER, CSR No. 6851
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Deposition of ROB
by the Plaintiff,
CS R No. 685:", a
of Los Ange:es, S
Main Street, Floor, Los Angeles, Ca fornia,
on Monday, June 6 1988, at 10:20 a.m., pursuant
to Notice.
APPEARANCES
For
For
OF COUNSEL:
the Plaintiff: THE 30CCARDO LA'iv FIRM
By: THOMAS G. LEWELLYN, ESQ.
III West St. John Street
San Jose, California 95115
(408) 298-5678
the Defendant;: MILLER, YOUNG & HOLBROOKE
FARRELL, called as a witness
taken before Stephanie A. Shearer,
tary Public in and for the County
ate of California, at 200 North
By: LAEEINE S. HOLBEOOKE,
1225 Nineteenth Street,
Washington, D.C. 20036
(202) 785-0600
-and-
SHELLEY ILENE SMITH
Assistant ty Attorney
General Counsel
1800 ty Hall East
200 North Ma Street
Los Angeles, California
(213) 485-7920
--000-­
N.W.
90012
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Robert Ferrell
3
I N D E X
EXAMINATION
.Y:r . Lewellyn]
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I B I T S
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2S
PRO
ROB E R T
the Plaintiff, ha
examined test
BY MR. LEWELLYN:
Q Please st
A Robert. Fa
Q You'n::: a
Los Angeles?
A Yes.
Q What dist
A Eight.
Q And 8
A South Cen
South East Los Angeles,
Q How long
District?
A Fourteen
Q Has the 8
geographic area?
A No.
Q Okay. Du
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L , called as a witness by
ing been first duly sworn, was
as follows:
EXAMINATION
your name.
::-ell.
ity cOLncilman the City of
lct do you represent?
h District encompasses what area?
ral Los Angeles, a portion of
portion of the Mid-Wilshire area.
ave you represented the 8th
'ears.
h District always been the same
ing the period of time that we're
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----------------------------------------
5
1979
dealing with here, say,
strict changed at all
A Yes.
to the present, has your
ically?
Q In approx'Tlate
1979, wh3t areas did it
encompass?
A Rouqh toe same area as now, but it d :r:.ot
go beyond Washington BOll evard, north beyond Washington
BO'Jlevard.
I t doe:3 son 'i:.
Q And when that change?
A
When was redistricting?
.M.S •
I think it would have been 1981.
THE It was subsequent to t.
It was when we -ej it the first
MS • S:·lITH: Oh, in the lawsuit.
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MS • It was in 1986.
THE ITK:;:; :8 : 1986, '87.
Q
M:,. I ;wellyn I
3ave YOll held any other
political offices?
A No .
Q And I tak! it that's a full-time position.
You're n't effiployed in
capacities?
A That's tr leo
Q Has that leen true the entire 14 years?
A Yes.
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Q Curren
staff is composed of, ju
a chief of staff?
working for you?
A Chief
could you tell me what your
t the posi ons? Do you have
ype of personnel do you have
senior consultant, one
consultant, perhaps seve
ano
persons who have titles called
"aides," and perhaps three adminis people,
clerk pists, stration.
Q At the pr sent time, who is your chief
deputy?
A
Q And your or consultant?
A Percy n ey, P-i-n-k-e-y.
Q And you h ve a consultant under the senior
consultant?
A That I S a 2rm I use for a the name
of Veronica Hayes. an and she's
retained to se me ::r,atters ling with housing
and, in par cular,. the 2ntury project.
Q Okay. there anybody that has par cular
responsibi E:S for kee ,ing you i ormed on lssues ng
to do with cable TV?
A I use the city staff for that, the
legislative ana 3. '. Ellman, and in the routine
of materials that cone t the office that relate to I
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the subject area.
NOW, ln 1979, who was your chief
deputy at that time?
The chief in 1979 may have been a
gentleman by the name of Ernie Sprinkles, I think.
o Did Chanr ',ng Joh::ison work for you at one
point?
A Yes.
Q What was lis position?
A He 'Nas al aide.
HeNG.::3 al aide.
And what vears did he work for you?
I don't lEcall the years, but I could get
that information.
Q Do you rE rember how long he worked for you?
A Approximi two years.
Q Do you rE member if it was before or after
1980?
J.\. It was ::ore '80.
Q Did he we for you at any time when there
was the initial bidding for Area K?
MS. H:JLB:. (lOKE: a minute.'
Do you. u:, ders tand wha t he means by "the
ini tial b iddin::J for ,,,,re, K"?
THE WITN: SS:
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the cable discussions a_t Mr. Johnson's tenure.
Q Okay. D :cing that ioc1 of time, d you
have any par cular -­ 'he time I'm referring' to is, again,
when the City irst reg] es blds for the South Central
franchise.
During t at time, did you have anybody on
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ecise tern, and
Q [By Mr. L
franchise area
A
Q
A
Q
Los Angeles
A
Q
A
Q
bids for that ::ran::hise,
A Yes .
Q
the initial bidding
A He
years, and I
Is that t
Yes.
Yes.
vlas
requested bils for that franchise?
I
At
OKS: I'n not sure that is a
I'll object on that basis.
,\Nelly n] YOL're familiar wi the
12a Kit?
2 South Central area?
first time that Ci of
the exact date. !call
Sometime
that
the '70s, late '70s.
when they first requested
was I'1r. Johnson on your staff?
he remain on your staff after
for the South Central area?
approximate two
the overlap in the time th
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Q
was your chief
II.
Q
have you had a
Q
A
Q
Sprinkles?
and the approx
p.
'77, and s
Q
your sta f who it was main function to keep you
info of cable ,ion issues?
p.
Tohnson was one of those persons
and then the analyst's office of the Ci ty.
Q
Was anybody in par cular at the
Ie lative analyst's office whom you consulted during
?
A I 1 lcall any particular names, just
a tion pro'lided 'le office.
Okay.
ling
was
you have a -- Excuse me.
\1hen Cha, Johnson worked for you, who
?
I th Hr. S nkles at that time.
I don't to ::.'iraw this out too long, but
lot of cj :l ef deputies ng that 14-year
Yes.
How many, would you say?
fi'<:: or six.
in a to Mr. W gs and Mr.
, l you could,
tim !:', L1.a t
wa :\'illard
is all an approxima
I u::lders and.
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just list them or me
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maybe '75 to about
on.
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A Ernie Spr'nkles, up to about '80;
a leman by nane If John Murray. ere was La
gs, and hel' the title to date, for about
seven years, and ve been some other senior
consultant types to corne in during the time that Wiggs
has been chief of staff. So the chief of staff function
has changed over the las several years, but the person
has ned the same.
Q then was just a chief of your
staff for a brief of time?
A Willard ,rray, yeah, first couple of
years, and then John 'ay another of years after
Sprinkles.
Q
When l'lr. ng Johnson left your staff,
did take his pIa:e in terms of ng you informed
on cable television
Not reali' It went to a more general
staff assignment.
Q Before Mr. Johnson had that responsibility,
was there on you sta f who repor to you on
cable tel Slon
A No, It ',>l ,s just general staff assignment.
Q Do YOll re 'a 1 how you carne about to hire
Mr. Johnson?
A I met Cha lning as a young man rom Stanford
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and Harvard who wanted t) in a couple of years of
lic service before off into his private c ceo
I was very pleased and at the opportunity to have
someone with his skill ld background and training to work
on the staff.
Q introduced you to h
A
Q
r functions did Mr. Johnson perform
for you while he was aides?
A He h assignments t dealt
with anti-pove programs that had as part of
the routine of work at contracts and close review
of the law and ative procedure.
Q D training re he came
into your office with to cable te sion?
I\ I don't
1
now.
Q Did you ave any other ers on your
staff bes s Joi:1ns(
]'I?
Ylr. , .
MS. HOLB_ (JOKE: That I s ng the period
or time Mr. Johnso was there?
MR. LEWE LYN: Yes.
THE vH TN Xo, not at that time.
Subsequent yes.
Q [By Mr. .,;wellyn] What subsequent lawyers?
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.:.lal on your staff, or is she
an outside consultant th.t will calIon from to
or both?
A She could
Q Is ac
be both. She has a contract
with me as councilman to specialized service.
She's available on call, and I view her as an i ral
member of the staff, eve though the areas that are
assigned to her are ra speciali zed.
Q Does she

any work on cable television
issues?
A No.
Q Pr to 'our deposition , have you
reviewec. any mater ia Is c documents?
No, othel than seeing this file again
this mo:::-ning.
Q AI when is the last t you saw
this file befo::::-e ?
A When it \dS -- information was requested
by the ci Attorney, aId my staff just generally showed
me what were sendi 9 over to Ci Attorney's
Office.
You do any personal search for
any of the documents?
No. It as a request that came to the
off e. twas assigne to staff, and Mr. Wiggs did the
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work.
Q So :'11'. l-j: qgs pro all these documents?
Yes.
Q NOW, are there any documents within this
stack here that 100
'
at this morning?
Just to in a general way that it was
the file that carne f=om office, no more than that.
Q t weI' your instructions to Mr. Wiggs
wten you asked him to 9 file together?
Comol"! in the City
...
Attorney's letter.
Q I don't ave that letter. I'm just tryin9
\'
to find out what you to d him to go look
The regul st was for materials having to do
wi cable In this ca.se, and I basically said, "Gi ve
the files."
Q
So, as f2r as you know, this would be all
of the materials, jocum nts, correspondence that you have
(
in your office that to cable television?
Yes.
Q I j 'JS::' to get from you at this time
your understanding 0'= t. ; request
franchise process,
how one would go about :ing that.
Can you j 1st brief outline for me what
the procedure is at cresent time?
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MS. BULB.
general.
)OKE:
I 'IT. not sure I understand
that tion. Th:l.t's
Q [B Y ['tc.
If I, Tom Lewellyn,
wanted to obtain a cabl. television in the Ci
of Los
eles at pt time, how would I go about
doing that in of t le paperwork and so on that I have
to provide to
lOW the detail. I guess you would
gc over to the departme t of telecommunicat
to speak
with the manager or one ;f the aides in the office that
wculd 12Y out the procees for you.
Q
You con' have understanding of what
the process is?
MS. EOL81 COKE: I think he just said he
doesn't know the detail! of the process.
Q
;'vIr. I E:wel nl I would li to know
what your understancing is.
Just tell me your u
rstanciing.
You the ci
You find out what
<.
particular rules re, and then you file.
The file through a process that is
admi trative in
dc, Fartment of telecommunications,
and recommenda ':' are [,ade
staff to the
le­
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commi:ssi
That inf rmation then comes OVer to the
's office and to t: E council.
It's ass ned to the
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indus
and econo::nic de relopment cornrni ttee for review
and then recommendations to the
The acts on it, and the mayor
concurs.
I guess that's the process.
Q Who is c .Tent on the i st.:::::-y and
economic cor littee?
A
Currently, I'm on that committee with
Joan Flores and Gilbe:t .indsey.
Q How long las the committee been composed of
these three councilrren?
A
Since first of July, 1987.
Q
Pricr :hat, who were the members?
A
I r !call all of the members.
Mrs. Flores was one, Lindsey, and I don't know who
the other person was. I don't recall.
Q How long lave you been on that committee?
A about a year.
Q Prior t.o:hat, had u ever been on this
parti
comnittee at l11?
A No.
Q
The docum !nts which you put together, would
that include any that you may have
tained in
your work on this corami t :ee, also?
A No.
Q )Jo?
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A No.
Q I we wanted to get
documents
or writings and so that you would have that were
generated as a of your work on
industry and
economic developme::t co i 11i t tee, how would we go abou t
doing that?
A You would get them from legislative
analyst or the Ci
Cler:. We basically do work ln
committee.
So any comme Its that I would make on material
would be part of not!s taken by the clerk, by the
slat analy st.
Q Do you ha:e a file that pert ns to the
work you've done 0:1. t:1":.at cOmI:1ittee?
A Xo. I do l' t a file as such. What I
do is I do the as tie binders are ?repared
staff.
It's a rather hig
operation. So the detail
that any of us would
to do, and especial for me,
on this cor:mi t tee, i ':: IS
the document comes across the
desk.
MS. SMITH: Each item that would be referred
to committee, a file is opened by the City Clerk
and the City for each ma :ter.
So, Ie, a cable franchise
lication would jegin ori nate a council file. It
would have the a
If it was in
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lOKE: You left out a couple of NS. 2
steps there. 3
If y )u were after was the end of the 4
question, that's fine. just object to the assumptions
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else the particular lssue happens to be, and
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Now, in , nalyzing whether to approve or
23
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disapprove the par-::.icul, franchise, are there certain
st:andards that be I before a franchise would be
25
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I thi that's the basis of
tte recommendations staff.
Q of what
those standards are?
Tec financial ability,
capaci to do wor r;: •
Q The co3.::::>aci to do the work
Yes .
Q -- lS included within the technical
financial standards?
I sorted it out because I'm giving
you a response off the P of my head. I mean, one can
have technical abili , and one may or not have the
money_
f you have 'oney and technical ability,
there could still be a on whether you could put
the ether anc administer it.
Q That's tiE point of the whole process,
right?
A Right.
Q And t}1e \, ay to ne whether or not
someone has wherewi 1al to put together a ise
is, one, to at the technical aspect and, 'two, at the
financial aspect; is th2 t correct?
That's p2rt of it.
Q Is there anything else you look at besides
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ose t\vO area:3?
I i:n}: can t the detail the
d nt.
I don't exactly what that detail is,
but this is
Q I wan:: t know your understanding of it
today.
Is there anything else that you're aware
of that is analyzej in cetermining whether or not to
approve the franchise aEflication?
I think generally it.
Q :Jow, your personal perspec ve, what
ty s of things, sta you ly in determining
whether or not the
licant would :neet the
technical requiremen:.s 1 a'C you I re looking at?
Adv:'C12 0'::: staff.
Q And the "staff" being the de?art:nent of
telecor-ununica tions or yc ur own staff?
Departmel t of te communications, the
Ci ty s taf f as oppos,ed tc my own s taf f .
Q
Do re upon the ci staff in
detenni ng whether the
licant has the financial
wherewithal to put to(jet- er a franchise?
A Yes.
Q Has therE ever been an application come up
fore the council when there had a reco:nmendation
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that the _
ise
ease explain
recommendation
t:o
recommendations
C011ILi:3s
3 there ever been
the City Council s
disapproved the
l"iould that.
Q Sure.
As I can start
th this staff --
comes before the
City Council,
by the board of
telecomlnunicaticn particular franchise;
is that correc ?
A Yes. from the
from the
Q Oka:
r
' • a franchise
application come befcre
he board which has had these
approvals and it has bee 1 disapproved by the City Council?
f.1S. )OKE: I n other w'ords, the
recommendations? 3ecaus" there aren't approvals in the
earlier stages.
THE I 'rNE :: S : e recorrJ:l.endations of staff
and the commission . t tantamount to council approval.
Most of theD are; at times, given the information
available, the hiS made an in rmed decision to
do something else .
Q [By M=. That's what I'm
interested In.
Can you 9 ve De any specifics ln terms of
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when the::::-e has beer: 3. r C omrnenda tion
the staff to
a t 0::::- to ove a ranch se and the City Council
has rejected that recomLEndation?
A
I think \Cu would have to get that
ocr Ci t·{ staff.
Q You con' know of any in particular as we
sit hen3 today'?
A
be one early on about South
Central.
been one ln the San Fe::::-nando
Val 11m not. sun:::.
Q When you say there have been one ln
the South Central area, your understanding of that
situation?
You mean whether it came
fore the Ci
a recommendation or 1
. , ?
from e sta f
Couceil
and £::-01:' COmmlSSlon.
MR. L3WEILYN: Yes.
THE WITNfSS: I con't recall the detail 0­
that.
Q r.lr . towel Do you remember what
parties were involved 01 who were
icants involved?
I'm ure : could get the detail of that;
but, as we sit and talk this morning, I don't recall that.
I need to have my re reshed.
Q How you go about ng that?
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ie£ing, not my
staff, d tme:rc's :;taff.
Q And that" the 0
A Telec nIr.mt lications, or the legislative
analyst.
Q
Who en department of telecommunica ons
sta would be contacted?
The manager.
Q
Is tha t
HC):="B OKE: Susan Herman.
THE Excuse me. Susan Herman.
Q [By 'i'lhenever e
applications come be ore the board, do they always
have the 1f the tment of
telecommunications, c_ s)met
will there be an
application that corres the board
t ':.he
department has that the franchise not
be approved, but
wa lt to have the Ci Council
the denial franchise, if you want to
put it that ?
MS. :JOKE: Objection, compound and
ambiguous.
Q [By Kr. L1wellynJ Do you understand the
question?
A No.
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Q As I it, all of the
reco;:n.lnenda tions that before are reco::L."7'.enda ons
to approve a franchis '.S tha t ri ?
A They re -ecommendat
Does the )oard ever come before you with
a franchise and say, "We recommend that this franchise
be ?
A I don't 10W.
Q When you !ear the put on
the staf of the of do YOL
do any independent inves ::i on or re
the state;:n.ents that are ade to you by whoever puts on
this presenta on?
It ce:x,:nCi:,. Sometimes, yes. it's not
done often
ne, but it has been done.
Q Has it done by others on the City
Council? Is that what y)u're re ing to?
A Others rna: do it.
Q Okay. Ha:e you ever done it?
Perha:Js 0 -lce .
Q In s'.tuat was tjat?
A The on of the South 'Central
franchise.
And application was involved?
All of persons who filed.
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this in around 1979,
versal applied?
A It was n the franchise was des ted
and th e was '=he conpe t· '. tion for it. I looked at all of
them, because '=hey we,re ly consti tuents.
Q UnivE.. sa was one of applicants?
Whoever t ley were.
Q You co 't know who were?
At ttis . int, I can't tell you who th
were. I was in contd.ct 'Ii th members of my staff to
discuss the several , ;sals.
Q
Do '1'011 ember any of the individuals'
names, not necessari tIe comrany names, but any of the
individuals who were ass )ciated with these companies who
were app ing Eor that ranchise?
You're ng whether he
remembers names of lyone associated?
MR. . YN: Yes .
MS. HOLB :OKE: I take it you're not
to engage in a memorv t
MR. YN: I am, both.
MS.
Q
Okay.
I mean, it is a matter of
public re if know who t names are.
If wha. t ': )U' re trying to do is see who he
remembe:rs here , know, you're e tIed to do it;
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nut if you really want to know who the people were that
were i nvol \7ed, i_' S FclbllC reco
TEE 'iL TNES S : At this point, I can't recall.
I need somethi nc:r ':0 :Iog r:1]' memory.
Q Yr. U:'\vel nl All right. \'.'ha t type 0 f
independent f act,- ,.in:ling d you do when the franchise
applicat were submi t'::ed for the South Cent:ral area?
The l';Eltters were assi to to
review to find out who was involved, to
find out the nature 0 the agreements.
Q 0 .
'-,
, your staff was aSSigned that
responsinilit.y?
A 'The or responsibili was that of
Channing
Q
Anybo(::z' else -::ha t you recall or. your s taf f
who worked on those issues?
1\ L may have. He was on staff at
the time, but he was not the chi of staff, as I recall.
Q And dc, you recall anybody else who may have?
A No.
Q what did you instruct these
people to do in terms of inding out who was involved with
the various applica ons?
A To work wl-::h the City staff and to work
wi th the people v,rho ';,en: proposing to do nusiness with
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the Ci anc: their c:msul tants .
Q you s
"work wi th theu," \yhat
of work?
A
Invariably, they would come to talk with
me about
sup?orting their particular application.
So I
had a chance to meet everybody in those groups.
They
were making the of City Hall and in particular
talking to the persons whose constituents fell
within the boundaries the service area.
Q
So all the groups vying for that particular
franchise made to see you?
A
That's part of the custom here at City Hall.
The people who vie for franchises want to meet with council
members.
Sor;l!? I 'm S1.:xe contacted all council members.
Q
I take it you had a calendar or diary or
appointuent Dook of type of all the people you had
meetings with dur
that point in time?
A
I do::,'_. recall.
The major work was done
by Channing
He have the diary or calendar of
that.
Q
Do YOL kee? a Jiary currently of all of your
apPOintments and so

Q
Okay. When the year is over, do you retain
that diary?
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ral yes. I
Q iaries go back for the entire 14
years that you've b n a Ci councilman?
I don't know, bl:t probab
Q S: de you those?
A I them at ::ly deSK, the secretary's
desk.
Q are in your office?
RLqh:, . But as you go back many, years,
some that: info-rna_icn in a general way just
not
a'lailable, In the :::-()utin2 of turning over files.
I to
keep files u:r;; '=.0 date.
Q
Now, Er. Johnson would have also maintai
a diary dl:ring that ':irr,e; is that your l:nderstanding?
DU:::-Lr..q the me I'm sure we all t diaries,
in just doing you:::- ',..;'ork during the month I week or day.
Q
Does vour starf at the present time maintain
their own calenda:::-s and ::iiar ies?
A Yes.
End of the year, are those mainta ned
your office?
A No. rraintain mine.
Q Wha t har:;p:2ns wi th your staff's
aries
and calendar?
A I don't
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Q
A I n':' ,{now.
Q Do yoc reca:l during this time where
the various applicants were applying for the South
Central =ranchise any mel:'::tings with either Clinton or
Carl Galloway?
A
That I with them, yes .
Q Vla.s anyboc.y else present during those
meetings '?
Are you going to take them
altogether or
Q [j3y Hr. Ledellyn) Do you recall
speci ically different mee ngs with them prior to
the
nchise being a',va
to one of the applicants?
y (:.os •
I 'm sure I met with all of the
appl nts.
I do re:-:',::mber mee ng with the GaIloways.
Q
I just want to know about each meeting
that you had with Galloways that you recall.
So why
don't we start tl:e first t
that you ever met with
the Galloways to talk about cable tel
sion.
Dc yo remember that meeting?
A
I having a meeting with them and
some others.
Q
Okay. Who was present at that meeting?
Attorney Pierpont Laidley
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aDd the late
ell: ar les .
Q
t:,e in your of f ice here?
..
Q
e was the meeting?
A
I thi:-,k ic: was at Attorney Laid'
's office,
or it may have been t a
It was not at Ci
Hall.
Q
ccnvened mee ng, called it togetner?
A I it was Attorney Laid
Q hE any position with the City at
that t ?
Nc) •
don't know if he has ever had a
position with the City.
I ta
it Mr. Laidley contacted you; is
that correct?
A Yes.
Q
And he also contacted Mr. Charles?
KS. EOLBHOOKE: I f you know.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
Q
y Mr. Lewel
nJ And when he contacted
you, what did he tell was the purpose of the meeting,
if did?
A
As I he wanted me to talk with
some people about doing some cable business with the
tv.
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e ao':
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-
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South Central area?
C,;

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A FiftE:En, tiventy years.
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He c"ioe::,n I t have a specialty of some ?
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A So::ne c:::-imincl, some civil.
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Has te ever done legal work for
25
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2:! A I was an aide to a councilman.
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Q Okay. Now, can you recall, just as best
as you can, what at that meeting?
A A general discussion of c Ie and the
interest in the in doing business with the
City of Angeles when the time was right.
Q And by "\vhE!n the time was right, II what
are you referring to?
A \Alhen the Ci was, in fact, going to be
prepared to open up the boundaries for a cable franchise
consideration.
Q And the Galloways expressed interest that
they wanted to obtain a franchise?
A As I that was the nature of the
meeting.
Q And what was Mr. Laidl ey 1 s function in
being there at the meetins?
A A convenor.
Q Okay. He was kind of the liaison between the
Galloways and you?
A I go that far to s
he was
liaison of the Galloways. I donlt know if they had
retained him or anything Ii that.
Q What was Mr. Char Sl purpose in being there?
A As I re:all, Mr. Charles was interested
ln being an investor, to see if he could get the franchise
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Q
Was it understanding that the Galloways
and Mr. Charles then were competing for the franchise?
A I don1i: H:!call.
Q Was there any -- Well, how long did the
meeting last?
A Perhap;: a::1 hour .
Q
What was the end result of the meeting,
if anything?
A Just ttat we met. I heard that they were
ir.terested
cable, and they heard from me that I would
encourage them to 2PFly it .
Q
t jecause they were local businessmen
in your district:
A Absol·.l tely. Not necessarily in my district,
but in South Los ALgeles,
Q
went as far as both the Galloways and
Mr. Charles; you you encouraged them both to
app ?
A Yes;.
Q Was ancther meeting planned at that time,
follow-up
A I dor.l t r.:::call.
Q
What1s the next meeting you recall having
with the Galloways ttat pertained to cable television?
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A Aft.er t had formed their group, to just
basically touch e, to say they were
go to compete c,r.c. had a group, whatever the name
of that group was.
Q Incic.ei'tal , did you know the Galloways
pr r to your meeting first time?
A Acquairted with them, but not really know
them.
Q Okay. And how were you acquainted with
them?
A They are ?roressionals in black communi
As a b electeCl offi:::; al, I just tend to be acquainted
with le who::lre :in that community, le who are
black ica::1-Ameri::i::ns I as part or a pol cal civic-
social circuit that we travel In.
Q d any work with on a
particu project oz' anything lihe that?
A No. No.
Q Had the Gal s bee::1 recommended to you
by anybody other 1:han Mr. Well, I don't want to say
that Mr. Laidley recoITlDe!'lded them to you, but anybody
discuss the wi "::h you prior to this meeting
other than Mr.
A No ..
Q Was that the first time that you arned
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they were interested in a cable television franchise?
A Yes.
Q
Did you have similar meetings with other
applicants for that franchise?
A I'IT sure I did.
Q Okay. Do you recall any of those?
A No. There were quite a few.
Q Was anybody -- Let's see.
There was the four of you at that
meeting. There was nobody from your staff or anything
like that that attended with you; is that correct?
A I t r':;call. I don't think so.
Q Oka.y. When you had meetings with other
applicants, woult yoe ever attend those with members of
your staff?
A From time to time. I would be either alone
or with staff. It was both; but most of the time, when
those meetings began to take place, it was at City Hall,
and people would come my office. I don't think there
were any other meetirgs outside of City Hall like that.
I to a request from my friend,
Mr. Laidley, to have a meeting.
Q Okay. The meeting that you had with
the Galloways '.'las after had coalesced into a formal
investor group i j_s t correct?
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A I':hink so.
Q Okay. And did they identify themselves
to you as being::ror:: a cO:llpany called "Universal"?
A That molY be the company, but they did
identify themselves; and they came in, as did others.
Q Okay. Did they tell you whether they were
associated with any other businesses in seeking this
franchise?
A I recall.
Q Okay. Was it your understanding that they
were operating or with other entities?
MS. HOLBROClKE: Are you talking about the
Galloways or about Universal?
MR, LE1iJEL::"YN: The Galloways.
THE Wl'rNESS: They were with a group. I
assumed that in the group, numbers of people were coming
together.
Q [By Mr. Lewellyn] Did you know any of
the other people in group who were applying for
the franchise?
A I don't recall a group. There were people
who had been active in South Los Angeles. 11m sure I'm
acquainted with
Q As Y8U ait here today, nobody's name sticks
in your other the Galloways; is that correct?
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Yes.
Q 'i'ihen came toge r at this second
mee ng, who arr d that neeting?
A I I If. st::ce was at their request, at Ci
Hall.
Q Do you recall who was at the meeting?
A No. I don't recall. I don't recall that
we met.
Q And what d at that meeting?
A I only it as just a general meeting
with a mention in fact, were ng a courtesy
visit to office.
Q Did YO',l g them any advice at that time?
A No, ctber general encouragement that
I gave to everyoLE, \';15.1 them well.
Q ing people well, did you
provide any other assistance to either the Galloways or
any other group were lying for the se in
South Central?
A I understand the question.
Q Well, you mentioned that you encouraged
all of these groups the franchise.
A Yes.
Q And I taka it the encouragement was more
the nature of, "Gc·od luck, and may the best man "vin"
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type of thing?
A Yes.
Q Okay. Did you do anything in addition to
that, provide any type support to any groups who
were applying for the
A What do you mean?
Q Well, 's a very open question, because
I don't know whether you helped anybody obtain a franchise
or not.
A
I didn't help anybody obtain a franchise.
They went through the precess.
Q You didn't assist anyone?
A I don't assisting anyone through
the process.
I mean, they had their own consultants
to do
Q Do you recall any other mee ngs you had
with the Galloways following that second meeting where
they came in and told you that they were going to apply
for a franchise?
HGL 3ROOKE : I'm sorry. I missed the
question.
Q By .!1r. Lewellyn] Do you recall any other
meetings that you've iad with the Galloways after the
one where they came and told you that they were going
to apply for a franchise?
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A Yes. There was one or more meetings at
a when there was tje wish some council members
that there could be a single group applying for the
franchise South Les Angeles.
Q Okay. F st of all, let's start with:
What councilman wished that there would be a single group?
A I tjat was the general feeling of
myself and David Cc.Y11:in'::r:ham and Gilbert Lindsey at some
point in the process.
Q Mr. is Gilbert Lindsey?
A Yes .
Q At that tine, were either Mr. Cunningham
or Mr. Lindsey on the p cular committee that dealt
th cab telev.1:::lor.. ?
A I don'" know at all.
Q Do who was on the industry
economic lopment co:::uni ttee at that time?
A I recall that r1r. Snyder was on the committee.
Art Snyder was a couf,eil member at that time.
Q he have any input in whe r or not
you thought it would be a good idea to have tha
ngle
group apply for thE, franchise?
A I don't. recall Hr.
of that conversation.
Snyder being any rt
Q Whose idea
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together as oree?
A I th=-nk it 'Nas the sense of aspiration among
the black council nenbers, myself, Mr. Lindsey and
Mr. Cunningham, to if there was a way that there
could be a grcu.£: to qo so that we cou get the best
for all these offerings for the service area, \vhich
happened to be predoninantly black and over ing the
predominantly black residential area of the city.
Q
Who were the group of people that were
encouraging to coa - this purpose?
A There were several groups competing, and
there were black incipals in those groups. There may
have been some other groups competing that had no black
principals.
Q
Do you Which groups those were?
A I r t tell you that just here at the
table.
Q
One qroup was the group led by the
Gallowaysi is that correct?
A
Yes"
Q Okay_ And one group wou
together by lVlr. Joh::H;oni is ,that correct?
A Mr.
Q Channing Johnson.
A No. ND, not in this first
be a group put
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Q Okav. You don't remember any of the names
of any ether
A No. I wou:d to see some information.
Q I just want to show you a document. You
can just look at it. We don't have to identify it, but
do any of the names (In refresh your memory as to
who the groups were that you wanted to join together?
A Right. this was much later in the
process than when you're talking about.
Q Wel', were any of the members there on that
sheet of paper, doestha-::: refresh your recollection as
..L to who the init groups were?
A No. No.
Q All ricrht. Thanks.
Other the fact that these groups were
all black, was there any other reason that you wanted
them to get together:
MS. HT,3R:JOKE: Objection. He didn't say
that the groups were all black. He said these groups
had black rt ipation, I believe.
THE WrrI'NESS: Black princ ls.
Q [Bv Mr. Lewellyn] Other than the fact
that the groups all black principals, a-I-s, was
there any other reasons that you wanted them to get
together?
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A Vlel" , feom point of view, that was a
paramount cons rati:x,.
Mr. Clinton Galloway
enters the deposition room.]
Q M::::-. Lewel Were there any other
less important considerations that you had in wanting
these groups to
A That W2_S the major one.
Q any minor ones?
A No. I for me, that was the paramount.
Q Wel I unders::and that, but "paramount"
to me means most =.mportant .
A Yes ..
Q
I r r:t t::::-y ing to ,.,
out if there were lesser
in _0 that paramount consideration,
why you wanted th:.s qroup to coalesce.
A The other considerations that were address
by the staff of anybo who wanted to p cipate you
l
have to have the nances. You have to be able to
demonstrate that you 8an do the business.
[Discussion held off the record.]
[Recess taken.]
MS. HOLBROOXE: Back on the record.
There was an answer that the witness wanted
to amend, clarify ..
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THE h1lrI':\JESS: In the sequence of ch fs
of staff following Willard , it should Billie,
B-i-l-l-i-e, Schlei, S-c-h-l-e-i, a lady.
Q S-c-·h _.­
A -- 1-e·-i. That was prior to Spr les.
Q
Did Billie Schiei inform you or keep you
abreast of any cable television issues?
A No.
Q Going t,ack to your initial meeting with
Galloways, Mr. Laidley and Mr. Charles, do you recall
that meeting that we jiscussed earlier this morning?
A [KoddiL:j. ]
Q At time, did Mr. Laid have any
interest or express any interest to you in obtaining a
cable television frar.2hise?
A I don't recall.
Q At any tine, has he expressed that type of
interest to ?
A In having a cable franchise?
Q Yes.
A No.
Q Has he ever discussed with you investing in
any cable television operation?
A Yes .
Q Okay. when was that in relation to that
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meeting, before -­
A Much, much later, years later.
Q And that time, his sale responsibility
at that meeting was as the convenorJ is that correct?
A Yes.
Q NoVl, back to the meeting we were
discussing just before the break That's when we got
group of investors who were headed by black
principals -- you one of the black incipals
as the Galloway group, aLd have you remembered any of
the other blacks that. were involved in that group that
you wanted to get tocether?
A No.
Q Oka·y. was the resu of that meeting
of this group of black principals?
A The end was that it was not possible
for those parties to together.
Q And why was that?
A There a range of reasons.
Q What's your understanding of the reasons?
A Given the way that people had put their
proposals together, it sible to do. It was a
that simply couldn't be done.
Q
Was it not feasible for financial reasons?
A I wou say less financial than other kinds
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of technical reasons. People a ady had their groups.
Q
In other words, these peop already had
their group together, ane they didn't want to form a
new group; is that what you're saying?
A I know if it wasn't something they
didn't want to do. It was just something that could not
be done.
Q Was that something that the Galloways
to you?
I'IS .nCLBROCKE: Was what?
No . That's my observation of
the process.
Q [By Mr. Le\vellynJ How many meetings did you
have wi th groups to try to get them to come
A I don't know how many meetings there were.
I think I may have been involved in one or two of those
kinds of meetings, but the meetings were going on.
Q Was there anybody else from your of ce who
was involved in these meetings?
A I may have had a staff person .
Q Do you remember who that was?
A And if that staff person was there, it would
have been Channing Johnson at that time.
Q What's the next meeting that you recall
having with e _her of the Galloways?
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MR. After the one we just
discussed where he to get those people together.
THE T was a part of a group trying
to get those groups together. I did not do it on my own.
I was not the initiator that.
Q [By Mr. Lewellyn] who was the initiator
of that?
A I don't recall. It cou have been one of the
other council mernberE. It could have been someone out
of the mayor's office, attempting to pull this grouping
of people with an interest in South Central cable together,
a group of people had African-American principals in
their organizatiorcs
Q Was there any investigation at that time
into the financial of the people who were
applying for that in the South Central area?
. ?
A InVE:sti ]_on.
Q I use the term broadly.
If you look into
A Not: that [ did. If anything was done, I
would assume it was by City staff.
Q When Y2U were encouraging the people to
apply, you didn't have one way or the other
whether or not
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operating a cab sy::te:n?
A No.
Q Okay. Did you personally or anybody on your
staff investigate whether any of the applicants had any of
the technical ability to operate a cable system at that
time?
A I don't recall.
QrJas that ::;omething that Mr. Cunningham,
Mr. Lindsey or you ever discussed, whether any of these
groups perhaps had an edge over another group, either in
terms of their financial capabilities or in terms of their
technical
I don't recall; but given the ct that
the C was in the proceEs of gearing up for cable, there
weren't many people OJt there with expertise. I mean,
there were som(? peop:l2 \ihc were in the field, and there
were a lot of other ople who were arguing themselves
to participate in the franchising; however, it,was going
to be done in the Cit; of Los Angeles. So I recall these
people were as compet3nt as anybody else who was out there.
Q At the time of these meetings, I take it
the City had actually opened up the South Central area
for bidding for is that right?
A Which meetings?
Q The one; we just discussed, where the
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Galloways and these other unidentified black principals
worked together you.
A Yes. process had begun, because they
had been identified. There was a process that had been
identified by the City as the way to go for the franchise.
There's a gap of time between that first
meeting that I had with the Galloways, when there was
no process -- It was just, "Cable is coming to Los Angeles,
and here are some people v1ho are interested in it" -- and
the subsequent meeting that we're talking about now,
where you had people that had come together with their
own groups. They had cerne forward to participate in the
City process, and the process was underway.
Q Okay. And about what year was that?
MS. HO:::',BECOICE: What year was what?
Q [By Mr. Lewellyn] The process you were just
talking about where the people were filing the initial
applications.
A Well, that process was designated,
as you earlier, an Area K for South Central
Los Angeles, whatever period that was, it was
subsequent to that and the beginning of the
RFP process in getting things out to the public, people
turning in their responses to those RFPs.
Q Now, Area K, as I understand it, one time
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luded areas. That was Boyle Heights, San Pedro
and South tral.
Is that your understanding?
A I don't recall.
Q Do you recall at any time where there were
three separate fran ise areas made out of one?
A Not at moment. I would have to see
some documents to refresh memory on that.
Q st for proposals of
the various groaps who 3pplied that you had the meetings
with; is that correct?
A They re to RFP, yes.
Q Did you m2et wi all of the applicants for
that particular ise?
A I'm sure I did.
Q it your unders ng the franchise
would be awarded just to one group?
A As I that's our City process, to
ck one.
Q So it's an exclusive process?
A As I recall.
Q Who was awarded the franchise?
A I don't recall the name of the group, but
was one group that got it.
Q Okay. Was that the group where I showed
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you the sheet of paper earlier?
A Whatever this group was.
Q You don't remember the names of any of the
individuals who got it?
A I don't recall at this moment. I'm sure if
I had a document, it wou
refresh my memory as to who
they were.
Q NOW, when yeu say they actually got the
franchise, did have the City Council's approval?
A
That was the significant vote, the decision
made by the council .
Q And the mayer approved it?
A As I recall .
Q Okay Now, was Kaufman & Broad one of the
principals or one of the ewners of
franchise or of
the group that obtained the South Central franchise?
A Event.ually.
Q
Who was the initi group? That's what I'm
trying to
A
I den't recall.
I would have to see some of
the documentat i:o refresh my memory.
Q Have you ever had any meetings with any
r resentatives of Kaufman & Broad?
A Yes.
Q Who have you met with from that company?
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A Broad and r members of his staff.
Q Do you the names of any of
others?
A Not :ric-ht off bat. If I had a roster
or something, I'm sure I could pick out the names .
Q Okay .. Had you ever met with Mr. Broad before
his involvement with South Central franchise?
A Yes.
Q Okay. When did you first meet him?
A \'Jhen I a menber of the council. He's
a developer. He's a tron of the arts. I met him in that
c ic context.
Q
Had you ever worked on any projects with
him of any parti=ular natLre?
A No.
Q Has contributed towards your c igns?
A Oh, I Ire .
Q D you Iceet: with I>1r. Sc r of Kaufman &
Broad at any

A Yes; Mr:. Schainker.
Q
1 J_ Schainker?
A
Yes" I've met with him. He's one of the
persons who is on Broad's staff.
Q how aJ)out an attorney named "Sammy Levin"?
Although he esnlt work Kaufman & Broad, have you ever
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met with him?
A I don't recall. I may have.
Q Okay. Anybcdy else now that comes to mind
from Kaufman & Broad whom you've met with?
A No.
Q Now, did you any meetings with either
Mr. Broad or Mr. Schainker before the franchise was awarded
to a group called "]\ccess"?
A I don't recall.
Q Do you understand that Kaufman & Broad had
an interest in Access?
A Right.
Q
Okay. And it's your testimony you don't
recall whether you've met with Mr. Broad or Mr. Schainker
prior to Access?
A I don't recall. And, remember, there is
a sequence of me here is getting jumbled.
Q Okay. Why ton't you clear it up? What
sequence is getting jumblEd?
A Well, as I recall, Kau
& Broad was not
one of the
ies invitet to the meeting that was convened
to talk about the pE;ople v:ho had African-American principals
in lng tosrether. It was subsequent to that.
Q I take Kaufman & Broad doesn't have any
black principals?
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A the best of my knowledge, they do not.
Q One of the groups brought them in, or do
you know why Kaufman & Broad was brought in by these
groups?
A No.
MS. 30LBROOKE: I object. I think all of
this is going astray and getting increasingly garbled.
There is no testimony that Kaufman & Broad was brought
in by any group, and the time sequences are off. So we're
getting things mis -­
Q [By Lewellyn] Is it your understanding
that Kaufman & Broad at sene time became part owner of
the cable system which the South Central Los Angeles -­
A Yes.
Q And when that occur?
A I can't givE, you the date now. I'm sure
if I had a reference
Q But it was after the initial franchise was
awarded?
A As I recal:.
Q Were they brought in by the group that was
awarded the initial
A I den't recall who brought them in.
Q Were they brought in?
MS. HOLBRClOI<E: Well, they came in. I mean,
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Q
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THE: VJIl'::JESS: I d
[By Mr. Lewellyn]
Yes.
Do you know who?
No.
were brought in -­
not bring them in.
Somebody did?
Do you know why they were brought in?
I don't know why.
Do you have an opinion?
MS. HOLBROOKE: Don't culate. If you
THE WITNESS: No.
MS. HOLBROOKE: you should tes fy to
it, but you should not culate.
THE WITNESS: I don't know.
Q [By Lewellyn] I understand you don't
know.
Now, do you have an opinion to why were
brought in?
A It may have been because of their financial
ability. As I recall, relative to groups that were
predominantly white, the sroups with
ican-Arne can
principals at that time did have access to capital,
to the best of my knowledse, the same way that whites did .
I think that what happened was I wanted to
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get the folks t8gether, which was the aspiration, a wish
among the electet officials, that we could have an
African-American firm to get the franchise, out of a
sense of just wanting that to ha?pen someplace in the City
of Los Angeles. If it was to happen in the City of
Los Angeles, it was m8st probable that it would happen
in the South Central area. It would be the only place
where the whole geal of affirmative action, equal opport'lmity
could really be exercised.
Q Okay. Did you have personal discussions
with the mayor abeut these aspirations which you just
referred to?
A With my colleagues .
Q is it that it was most like to happen
your district as opposed to another?
A When looked at the demographics at the
time from other parts of the City, I just don't think that
it would have been possible in terms of kinds of
community support necessary to support a franchise.
Given other concerns that at least Cunningham
and nd had about the capacity of the fellows to put
together their )ackages, I don't know if they would have
gotten the same kind of supportive consideration anyplace
else in town.
Q Now, you mentioned a moment ago that Kaufman

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& Br8ad were in subsequent to initial franchise
being awarded to some group and the reason being in part
it was your opi on that they had the financial ability
to make this thing work.
A It ITlay have n because some people just
tried to find some people of 5 cific standing who were
open to the process of minori partic ation and who
were willing to make resources available.
Q D it turn out that the group that was
awarded the initial franctise as a result of their request
for proposals did not have the financial capability to
operate a cable system in South Central Los Angeles?
A I don't
Q Do you kno,," whether this group that was
awarded the franchise had the technical ability to operate
a cable system?
A I assume so.
Q You don't recall any presentations regarding
the group that was initially awarded the franchise?
A I remember the presentations. At that
I was looking t8 staff for guidance, because
the cons rations were technical.
Q What I'I trying to find out here: At some
int, were you made aware of perhaps some misinformation
or cts which were represented which were incorrect
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regarding the ial of the
was awarded the ise?
r.t3. HOLBROOKE: I object. That is too broad
and ambiguous.
MR. GALLOWAY: Can we go off the
record for a so I could speak with you?
MR. LEWELLYN: Yes.
[Recess taken.]
Q [By Mr. Lewellyn] Just to clarify something,
at the present there is a franchise for the San Pedro
area, correct?
A Yes.
Q And there's also one for the Boyle Heights
area?
A Yes.
Q And there's South Central?
A Yes.
Q Now, were those three areas broken off from
n
+-?
one consolidated area at cne .....
A One consol ated area?
Q In other words, were all part of one
-I- •
se at one L: lms :
IvlS. HOLBROJ}(E: One franchise or one area?
MR. LEvJELLYI, : One area.
THE WITNESS: But it was tlw City. It was

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the City, and then th(;; Cit I Vlas divided up.
Q [3y Lewellyn] Those three areas, was
it broken up to have the franchises designated according
to racial boundaries? In other words, "We'll have a
black franchise area and a franchise area and
a white franchise area"?
I don't recall being described that way .
Q Something
A There were ether considerations of service
area.
Q What's your understanding of the reason that
those three areas were laid out the way that they were?
A Service arec,. I mean, if you look at a map
of the City, ycu could SOI't of see the reasons why, the
connection of San wj,th South Central. I mean, it's
a thin s p. That "las a maj or In an umbrella kind
of a way, natural service areas.
Q 'i'le:ce you in:;trumental at all in making
recommendations H::garding the setup of those three areaSi
other words, i:1to the Boyle Heights area and the
San Pedro and U.... 13 South Central?
HOLBIWOKE: Making recommendations to
whom about -­
J'1H. LEiVELLyn: Well, to the City Council
that the whole area can ho::! broken down into three separate
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areas.
I recall the discussion.
I
don't think I was more or less than any other
people around.
Q
[By Mr. Lewellyn] Okay. Did you have a
motion to have the Area K divided into three separate
areas?
A I donlt recall.
Q the groups applied initially for the
area, the South Central Los Angeles franchise, do you
recall that dif
t groups were awarded credit ratings
by the board?
MS. HOLBRJOEE: Wait be you answer .
y.::)U say "when the groups applied initially. II
Which period of time are we talking about?
MR. LEW2;LLYN:
This was for the initial
franchise in the Soutn Central area.
TdE I don't recall.
M:3. [lOLBROOKE:
In response to the first
RFP?
MR. LEWELLYN: Yes.
MS. IfOL3R(JOI{E:
And the question was?
MH. LElvEL:::"YK:
The question had to do with
credit ratings.
Is the councilman aware of any credit ratings .

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that \'1ere ass d to any of the various groups that


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A I didn't have a preference.
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Q Nov", at seC1E po , do
which was represented
l<r. Channing
the franchise in South Certral?
A Yes.
Q Okay . And was this at
for proposals or a one?
A No, subsequEnt.
you recall a group
Johnson applied for
the initial request
Q Okay. And when was that in relation to the
first one?
A Later.
Q How much later?
A I donI t
documents to g me
Q Okay.
Mr. Johnson was in
A
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at that time?
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the time that
franchise?
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office?
I would
Was
I don't
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he was
Yes.
Okay.
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knD\\. I would have to have some
a serse of reference.
Do yeu recall who along with
s srrcup?
havE to see one of the lists.
associated with Mr. Johnson
rE!cc.ll.
JohLson been out of your office at
-- or his group was applying for a
How long had he been out of your
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A I don't rec2.11, but he was bound by conflict
of interest rules, as anyone else who been a City
employee. So it was at least a couple of years, whatever
the rule is of the City. There was that minimum time that
he was not associated with my off e or involved in anything
that my office did.
Q When was the last time he did any work while
your office that irwolved cable tel sion?
A That was onE of his areas of responsibili
while he was the office.
Q The entire
+ .
,.lme he was there?
A Rigr"t. So v.rhen he left, it stopped.
Q Okay. So 's your understanding that, in
order to comply with the conflict of interest rules, that
he shouldn't be involved with cable television for a period
of two s following hiE termination of his position
your office?
MS. HOLBROOYE: That wasn't his testimony.
It sounds like your questi.on is trying to incorporate and
state his testimony which is not correct .
Q [By Mr. LeWEllyn] What's your understanding
of his responsibilities ur.der the conflict of' interest
rules?
ME. HOLBROOYE: Well, he alre tes fied
that it is whatever the City rule is that involves a period
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of time.
Q ;'lr. LEwellyn] What's your understanding?
A That.
Q Do you know what that period of time is?
A No. I'm sure we can get it.
Q You understand I'm not here to go through
books today. I want to know your understanding.
If you don't have one, that's fine. I just need the
reference to make sure that I make statements that are
appropriate in
MS. =-:IOLBROOKE: Mr. Lewellyn understands
that most of what he is inquiring into, so far, at least,
is of public record, and documents are available to
him. So, you know, he can easi pursue it, and we can
get exact dates.
Q [By Mr. Lewellyn] I don't want to a you
questions out of the blue unless I want to know what you
know about. We can sit here and guess about things,
but it is much easier for me to ask you if you know about
certain things. If you know things, I'll ask you about
it. If you don't, I won't ask you about them.
Did you ever discuss th Hr. J'ohnson
possibility of their be any conflict of interest with
him ing invol V'2C. in cab television indus after
he ft your office?
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don't. !:'2call.
Q o Was there ever an investigation, to
your knowle of activities of Mr. Johnson ning
to poss le confl s of interest involving his work th
cable televis ?
A In my off ? I'm not aware of that.
Q Were you aware of any investigation by the
Los Angeles Police rtment into any of Mr. Johnson's
activities after he left your office -­
A No.
Q g to cable television?
A No.
Q Were you ever a d to provide any assistance
to the Well, were you ever a to be interviewed
by anybody at the Los Pol Depa!:'tment regarding
possible conflicts of terest involving Channing
A I don't: recall.
Q
Do you recall any investiga s by the
C of Los Angeles PolicE Department rtained to
cable television?
A I don't rE!cc . .l.l.
Q
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ion to the City of Los Ange s Pol e Department
cable television or work that was done in office
per to cab_e television?
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A I don't recall anything else.
Q
Now, ttere was a second request for proposal
that you mentioned.
What was tte purpose for having an additional
request for proposal?
A The first orocess was inconclusive.
Q Okay. do you mean by that?
A The City cLose to just stop the process and
start again.
Q Why did do that?
A I guess you look at the consideration
of the council, it did not get what it really wanted.
We thought that we be able to go through an RFP
prooess and com!3 up wi some recommendations and have
something to work out, and the issue was resolved by
nondecision, going back out to the marketplace.
Q O:{ay. What was it about the rst request
for proposals that the City Council was dissatisfied
with?
A I guess the:najority mer.:lbers were not willing
to make a decision one way or ancther; and, from time to
time, when there's eight votes for something, a majority
vote, we'll begin the proc ss again.
I think the issue was one of public policy
concern, and the the council r.:lembers felt
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that the fits of the public would best be served by
going back out to start process again.
Q Did you feel that the applicants who 1
through the first RFP WE:re not qualif d to operate a
system?
A No. No .
• HOLBROOKE: I'm sorry. The question
was did you, and I don't know whe r that meant Councilman
Farrell rsonally or council.
MR.
I'm just trying to ascertain
a bit more speci if we can, why there was
a second RFP.
Q [By Mr. Lewellyn] You mentioned dissatisfactior
and at there was a najority vote in favor of having a
second one.
A There was not a maj ty vote for any of
proposals the:::e.
Q In c words, there was no majori for
anyone particula= licant; is that what you're saying?
A I th that led to the
consideration of tarting anew.
Q D 'IOU vote at at time to any
of the applications for the franchise through first
RFP?
A I would need to see the record to refresh
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my memory.
There were a series of votes, and I would
to see that record to put that sequence in p r
per ctive.
Q Fo:lowing the first RFP, is this when the
outside consultant was brought in to help analyze the
applicants?
me start again .
Do you recall the City
hiring an outside consulting firm to, for lack of a better
term, analyze the
lications?
A Ye;:; .
Q
Do you re:r:.ember the name of the company?
A
No; I don't -­
Q
Okay.
A
-- but I remember it was done.
Q
Okay.
What's it called, CFIT, or something
like that?
MS. HOLBRCOKE: Do you want me to testify?
MR. LEWELLYN: It would make it a lot
easier.
MS. HOLBROOKE:
CTIC was the company.
THI: IHT:JESS:
I don't recall the name at
s point .
Q Mr. Lewellyn] Do you recall
relation­
ship to either the
rst RFP or the second when CTIC
was brought in?
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A At this moment right now, I don't recall.
Q
How many applicants were there for the second
RFP?
A As I recall, one.
Q Who was that?
A It was the Kaufman, Broad entity.
Q And & Broad also were affiliated
in their application with a grou? of local black investors;
1S that correct?
A The.y had some people of the community there .
Q Who were their local community people that
you were aware of?
A There's a list of them. If I could see that,
I could just give you some of the names.
Q Okay. Was Channing Johnson one of them?
A Yes.
Q Mr. Gagqernan?
A I don't recall Mr. Gaggerman.
Q Mr. Davidsor.?
A Robert Danny Bakewell, some
community clergy.
Q Is th1s the group that ultimately were
affiliated with Kaufran & Broad?
M.S. HOL3ROOYE: If you know.
'I'HE WIT>JESS: That looks like it, that group.
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MS. HOL3ROOKE: I'll point out this does
say "Cab American Serv:ce."
THE WITNESS: As opposed to Kaufman & Broad
and some of those individuals -­
Q [By Mr. Lewellyn] The people below, the
community investor group, that's what I was referr to.
those the Ie that were -- Does
that refresh your recollection?
A I'TIl sure sOIT.ewhat.
Q You don't have an independent recollection
of who the people were -­
A No. I 'I10U need to have some re renee.
Q You do recall that Channing Johnson -­
A Yes.
Q Okay. NCM, did you have any meetings with
Channing Johnson ior i:o s second st for sal
about any group he had led or was associated with perta ng
to obtaining franchise?
MS. HOLBEOOKE: Objection. That's ambiguous
ln terms of time.
You to know if he net with Channing
Johnson with to
NR. To the South Central anchise,
lor to est for oposal but after the
rst one fell apart.

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I-15. HOLBROCKE: After the first one.
T::{E 1'JI'Il'JESS: Yes.
Q
And was anybody else
present at those meetings?
A P'2rh 5 Mr. Davidson, Robert Davidson.
Q Would have been at your office?
A No.
Q Did tell you at those meetings they
were still in a franchise in South
Central?
A Ye;3.
Q HoW' Dany meetings would you say you
had with them i time in between the first RFP
and the second
A Two or -::hree.
Q they tell you that they were looking
for some financial backing at that time?
A Finance was one of the items they discussed.
Q What else did they discuss with you?
A ir perspectives on the whole ss.
Q Anything else?
A No.
Q At the time of their meet wi
you, these two RFFs, had they, to your
en any support yet freD Kaufman & Broad?
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Could I have that back,
ase.
[Record read. J
MS. HOLBROOK::!:: I object. That's ambiguous.
I don't think there's any testimony that had support
from Kaufman & Broad.
You can answer if you understand the
question, but
THE WITNESS: Our conversations were about
Channing Johnson and Bob Davidson attempt to put together
a team to go for hise themse s.
Q Hr. L'2v;ellyn] At that , did you
have any understanding they had financial
backing from anybo other than themse s?
A They to:d me that they were seeking finance.
Q Okay. they tell you whom they were
seeking it?
A have. I don't recall. The sess s
were general They were as much social as
they were business.
Q How many times did you have these meetings?
A T'wc or three times.
Q And ltJ'ere they outs the office, outsi
of your off ?
A Yes .
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Q Do vou recall specifically where any of the
meeting s
Yes, at. t:he LA rlth etic Club.
Q
A Ye".
Q Okay. Were both Mr. Johnson and Mr. Davidson
present at all the meetings?
A Johnson was.
Q A 11 :: i q 1-: t . Other than the fact that they
were seeking financial backing, did they discuss anything
else with you about financial aspects of it?
A No-:: tha t
Q Did they cuss with you the initial RFP
and why that apa::t?
£.:S. HOL3ROor<E: object to fall-apart
characteristic.
You can anS\·Ter.
THE IHT:JESS: No. The conversations were
1n what they were doing put together a deal.
Q
[By Mr. Lewellyn] You mentioned the second
area you talked about perspec ve s on the proces s.
Wha do mean by that?
A Observations that I had, as I recall, about
a sense of disappointment that I and others had I felt
because we were not able have a sense of unanimity.
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Q Was that that you the unanimity was
required for the group to get a franchise?
A No I not. at all. I'm just talking about
aspiration. There's an aspiration in the African-American
community that. has to do with cOlTh'11unity uni especial I
around economic themes, espe ally where franchises or
contracts or like that are at stake.
Q Why is _hat? Why is it important that this
unanimity among black businessmen
A \'Ve11, Cl.3 a matter of just ral princ le,
that's part of thE', warp ar,d woof of political representation
in inner-ci predomir.antly black communities, is the
aspiration of people coming together, the best that we have
in terms of skill and expertise and financial resource
taking advantage of public policy opportunities for
affirmative action, minority business .
Q Did Mr. Johnson at any time provide you with
the names of any of these people he was seeking financial
support from?
A
He mentioned that in conversations.
I don't
remember all of
.
He had a particular strategy
of trying to put together his money.
Q Okay.
At some point, did you learn that
he had made some type of contact with Kaufman & Broad
to get them involved?
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A I don't if he did that.
Q Okay. Wel:, at some point, did you learn
that Kaufman & Bread and Channing Johnson were going to
get together l\ccess?
A At some point, I found out that Kaufman &
Broad was involved and there was the possibili of
Access coming together.
Q Okay. Hov,i did you learn about that?
A I don't rE:call arnlng about that
Channing. I I have picked that up at City Hall.
Q Okay. Do yeu know within those two groups
who approached whom, Kaufman & Broad approached
Channing Johnson or vice versa or whether some third
put them together? Do you know how those two groups got
together?
A No. I don't know how they got started.
Q OkdY·
You weren't, I take it then, present
at any meetings when they initial met, say, a representa-
Kaufman & Broad and Channing Johnson, and
init 1 talked about Joining forces?
A Thl;!re was a point that I was advised that
that dynamic was going on, but it wasn't, I dOn't think,
i::1 ial It was after the people were already attempting
to put s Kaufman & Broad piece I just assumed
the le ship came ::rcn over at the Kaufman & Broad shop.
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Q Anj what was the basis of that assumption?
A That there had been the discussion about
the aspiration that black principals be involved in the
organiz on to 3et the South Central franchise. There
had been the around the first proposal and the
fact that there was no council action on that. It was
going to go back out again.
I to ld you be fore, as I recall/the
first issue of Kaufman & Broad -- I don't remember who
specifically told ::ne about Broad's interest in part ipating
in that as a rrajority organization that had the
financial resources and some know-how, being willing to
corne together with black principals to do something in
the South Central area -- you know, that didn't come out
of Channing Johnson's putting together the Kaufman & Broad
piece. As I understand , Channing Johnson was attempting
to put together a group to compete for the franchise.
[Discussion held off the record.]
Q [By Mr. Lewellyn] Again, I'm referring to
that period of after the first request for proposals
fell apart and the time ttat the second request for
proposals was initiated.
Had you had any mee ngs with Kaufman & Broad
representatives or Mr. Bread himself pertaining to the
South Central
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A Yes .
Q Okay. d you meet with from Kaufman
& Broad?
A I recall meeting with Broad and with
Schainker. it was Schainker came around to set up
the meetings with
Q I'm sorry?
A Schainker came around first, set up the
meetings with Broad.
Q You mean came to your of ce?
A Came to the office, yes.
Q And he said he would like to meet with you
and Mr. Broad?
A He said, "We're interested in coming in
South Central. '>'TE: I d 1i<.e to just talk about it with you. II
Q Ant was that all that was said at that
initial meeting?
A At the initial meeting, the interest was
expressed.
MS. EWLBR()OK2:: Wait. liThe initial meeting"
being the one
Q [By Lewellyn] We're talking about the
time where Mr. Schainker came by your office
A Just a su::wary visit to set up the meeting
with Broad.
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did he just dro9 on you?
A I recall .
Q And I take you had this meeting with
Mr. Bread and Mr.
A •
Q who was present at that besides those
two individuals?
A Me.
Q That's it?
A To the best of my recollection .
Q In words, at your office?
A At Broae's office.
Q Where is Mr. Broad's office?
A Someplace ou1: in h'estwood. I forget the
address. He has a buileing out by the eway.
Q He a of buildings.
A A headquarters building.
Q Anyway, yeu met at Mr. Broad's office, and
what did he tell you at th2t time?
A As I recall, he mentioned his interest in
participating in
Q Did he tell you he was looking for some local
investors to join with him in his venture?
I don't recall at that point. I think the
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first one was he was sayiLg he was interested in doing
it and what were my feel g8 about that.
Q Did you tell him at that time that you were
interested In tavlng a group with a black principal obtain
the franchise?
A Yes, I did.
Q And you told him that, did he ask you,
"Well, do you havE: any recommendations whom? II
A No. At that point, I was saying, "It's good
to know you're interested, but please understand my
preference would be fo::::- Afr:ican-Americans to get the
franchise."
It was that of a discussion. He advised
me, and I appre8iated that opportunity to hear him. Some­
times people just go on in and use the public process,
and they don't to the elected officials. They don't
have to in the City of A. 's practice. He, as a courtesy,
was letting me know of his intent .
Q Okay. Did he express anything to you in
response when you told him that you wanted someone from
the African-A:r:1erica.n corccmuni ty to be involved with the
franchise?
A No. He heard me out. It was that kind of
an informal meeting, where he was just letting me know
that he had an in doing something, not that he was
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Q Okay. Did Mr. Schainker speak in that

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A I denlt recall. The first meeting was
informal and social.
Q You say "social."
Wha1: do you mean by that?
A Very era , just talking about the fact
that Kaufman & Broad, as I recall, was going -­ or was
considering doing South Central.
Q Had he you in this initial meeting about
any experience they had in the cable industry?
A They mentioLed that they had a subsidiary.
Q Sun Cable?
A [Noddinq]
A Yes.
Q Did thev tell you where Sun Cable had obtained
franchises?
A I den't recall.
Q What was your next meeting with Mr. Broad
or Mr. Schainker?
A I subsequent meetings where they had
basically begun the p,rocess of putting together a team
to go for the South C,:mtral anchise, and they decided
to do it. They were in the process, gave us some names
of some people . "Wha.t do you think about corrununity
leaders?"
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Q At that second meeting, who was present?
A Maybe about _ive or six. I don't remember
all the folks who were there.
Q Was Broad present?
A I don't recall if he was there or if it was
convened by Schainker.
Q Where was meeting at?
A At Broad's office.
Q Did ·rou call any other Kaufman & Broad
.r
rsonnel over at the meeting?
A I don't recall. There may have been. There
may have been some people from the Sun organization, but
I don't recall.
Q Anybody else from your office present at
the meeting?
A No.
Q Pardon me?
A No, :j us t me.
Q Any other potential investors at the meeting?
A I don't recall potential stors at that
meeting.
Q Is it fair to say that all the at
the meeting besides yourself worked for either Sun or
Kaufman & Broad?
A As I recall. I mean, this is
when the
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were saying, "We I re gc ing for it. 1\
Q And at at point, they asked you for
potential investors?
A Rigrlt.
Q d you give them?
A Arn0WJ the nC.mes were Davidson and Johnson.
Q Do you recall any other names that you gave
to them?
A I recall, honestly. There were others,
as investors and COffilTun participants.
Q Okay. Was this informal, just in speaking,
or did you give them kind of written -­
A Initially, it was informal.
Q And subsequently it was followed up with
some type of formal -­
A to that, I think they retained
a community-based j?R firm to assist in putting together
some names of peop were involved in the civics and
the community Ii of South L. A., to be extended the
invitation to be investors or co::rununity part ipants.
Q Okay. And why did you recommend at that
time -- or not recommend, but sU<jgest to them the names
"Davidson" and "Jchnso::l"?
A They were friends. One was a formal staff.
Q Did you consider suggesting the Galloways
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at that time?
A Initially, I did not. I donlt recall whetter
their names were included in the subsequent list that was
put together by the PH firm doing their commu::d ty work,
but I don I t see why thc:y Houldn 1 t have been included.
I think we tried to everybody who was out there.
Q Is there any reason you didn't suggest the
name of the Galloways at that second meeting?
A Ko, except that I was just close to Johnson
and his associate, and I was not specifically
asked for a I nk if I had been specifically asked
for a list, I vJOulc. t,ave "CalIon the people who
were involved in t,he last time."
Q What did you tell the people at Kaufman &
Broad about Channing -­
A Just that Channing Johnson was a former
aide of mine who cable and was interested in the
field.
Q Did you tell them anything about Davidson?
A Davidson was another person who was interesl:ed
in the field who was a friend of Johnson's.
Q Did you Mr. Davidson at all?
A I met him Johnson.
Q Was that after Mr. Johnson left your office?
A No. I think that I had met with them
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socially before.
Q Over at the Athletic Club?
A At the Athletic Club.
Q Did you advise the Kaufman & Broad personnel
that Davidson and, in particular, Mr. Johnson had a lot
of political connections at the City Council?
A A lot political connections? What do
you mean?
Q Well, that they basically know a lot of
people and have with city Councilmen.
A I don't think they had. I mean -­
MS. HOLBROOKE: The question was
whether you advised & Broad that they had political
connections, the way Mr. Lewellyn has de ned it. He is
not asking you whether they did or didn't. He's asking
whether you told Kaufman & Broad that.
THE WITNESS: No.
Q Lewellyn 1 Did the Kaufman & Broad
people ask you why yOcl were suggesting the names "Davidson"
and "Johnson"?
A No.
Q Okay .. Was there a follow-up to that meeting?
A Yes. There were other meetings; and, as
I told you, the Broad ?80ple retained council to go out
and talk with a lot of folks in the community about
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partie ting in their upcoming effort to get the franchise
Q Do you know the name of the company they
retained to
A I think the lead 1 was Barbara Fouche.
Q Do you know the name of the company Ms. Fouche
works for?
A Her O'ivn c any .
Q She's a consultant?
A She's a public relations consultant .
scussion held off record. ]
THE iV'I TN ES S : I think the name is Fouche.
MR. ::"EWELLYN: Okay. Why don't we take a
lunch break?
recess was
[Whereupon, at 12:45 p.m., the luncheon
taken.]
[Continued cn Page 88.l
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AFTERNOON SESSION
1:40 p.::n.
ROB E R T
F A ERE L L,
cal d as a witness
by the having been previously
duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
EXA1HNATION [Resumed]
BY MR. LEl'iELLYN:
Q Okav. We discussed the initial meeting
had with Mr. and Mr. Schainker when they expressed
interest to you that Kaufman & Broad wanted to get into
the cable television business in Los Angeles, and then
there was a second meeting wherein you gave them the names
of Mr. Davidson and Mr. Johnson, correct?
A Yes.
Q Okay. )Jow ,iyhat 's the next time you had
a meeting with anybody Kaufman & Broad regarding
obtaining a franchise the South Central area?
A There were meetings. I donlt
recall when in seqL:lenCe of time.
Q Okay. Just approximately, how many meetings?
A About h'IO or three.
Q Okay. \'las this before or after the time
that the second request fo= proposals went out?
A I dO:l r t recall.
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Q
Oka'!.
Kho did you meet with on these two
or three other
A
The same people.
Q
Mr. Bread asrain?
A
Sehainker and staff.
Q
Schainker aLd staff?
A
Yes.
[Continued cn Page 90.]
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Q The was a little ambiguous.
Was Mr. included in meetings,
or was it Mr. Schainker and his staff that were
in these subsequent
A Scha nker and his staff.
Q D8 you remember any of the names of the
people who were on his staff at that time?
A N:=>.
Q Were these meetings also at the &
Broad
A ones I attended?
Q
A Yes.
Q what was the purpose of these subsequent
meetings?
A Talking about community participation.
Q And were you again suggesting names during
these subsequent
A :::Jo.
Q Okay. was your input into these
meetings regarding participation?
A A part ipant in the discussions.
Q Okay.
A I stopped going.
Q There were other meetings that went on
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sense for Barbara Fou e as to how was going about
collecting of IE: for cons ideratior. 1 I said 1
"From my point. of viel,,', that is fine. That is sufficient."
It was to me that was
going to be put together. I've expressed to you my
preference that there be an African-American majori
organization. I've expressed to you that my preferences
aren't necessarily what happens, the fact that the
majori of the cOJncil has to vote for it, and that
was it. It seems as uhouSh there was going to be a deal.
Q Was Barbara Fouche present at either of
these mee ngs that you had with the Kaufman & Broad
personnel?
A I Can't recall if Barbara was at any of
the meetings.
Q DiC she refort to you on her own in terms
of her progress terms cf contacting local investors?
A She d contact me regarding local
communi par ipatior..
Q What did she tell you she had done?
A selectir.g names, if I had any
additional names to glve her so she might include these
people on her list.
I
Q Did she tell you -- Well, do you remember
the names 0 the individuals that she mentioned to you?
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A No. As I recall, she was just putting
a ceClS'JS 0 pe091e ln civic and comm'Jnity
leadership in
T
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Q Did you ofoer her any names?
A I don't recall giving her any additional
names. I may have asked staff to g her some names
off of our Rclodex. I don't know.
Q Did meet wi th her personally regarding
this subject'?
s once.
Q I'las else at that meeting?
A I ';n s2ly::.ng "perhaps once," because I thi::1k
we had a conversation, and then I turned over any additiona
requests she nade to sta
Q I'las anybody else t had mee
or s with for the purpose of to get some
communi partie ij:::a to the operation cf a cable
franchise in your distric ?
Just ny co."
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Cunningham.
Q Y01J did:l I t meet wi th anybody else in the
business communit:l abcnt _hat?
A No. We le£_ that all to them.
Q I'm sorry. What?
A I left that all to the people who were
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in workinJ with & Broad.
Q
Well, I did you meet with any other
companies besldes
& Broad who expressed any type
of interest?
No one elsE came around to ask.
Q Ultimately, Kaufman & Broad obtained
they were the owner and the people that obtained
the franchise; is that correct?
A put together a package, and
then they res nded next time the process opened up.
Q And do you recall how much later
that was after YOLr i tial meeting with Mr. Broad in
his office?
A No. I don't recall.
Q Nov,; I yeu oned a moment ago that you
wanted Well, let me just state the question this way.
Was it YOLr interest to have the black
component of the group be the majority owner of whatever
enti ty obtained franch ise?
A If I have had a yes.
Q When & Broad and -- Well, when the
Access group got ether and lied r the franchise,
is it your understanding that Kaufman & Broad owned 80
percent of that company?
A the time they filed their application,

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sure. I it all there on the documents.
Q Ok Dij you oppose that company then
obtaining the franchise, since they were not owned by a
majority of black ind.i\iduals?
A
Q And whv was that?
A No reascn to oppose it. As things worked
out, there was no other ccmpetition coming in.
I you what I would have liked. The
important thing Wa!3 'dhat did the r:'.ajority of the City
Co:mcil nk.
There was still the City process they had
to go through, regard
1
ess of what my preference was.
Q after Access obt ned the franchise,
to ur knowledge, did they ever build in your district?
A No.
Q And were you concerned about the fact that
they didn't build?
A Yes.
Q And what dij you do about those concerns,
you r::ersonally?
A "'.vhy aren't you building?"
Q
Oka'/ . And I,'-lho did you ask those questions
of?
A Schainker, our ci Attorney, our
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Q Di yOJ have a meeting with Mr. Schainker
regarding
No. thlnk it was perhaps done by phone.
Q How long after the f anchise was awarded
before you made a call to Mr. Schainker and expressed
your concerns about thei- not building?
Oh, it was a while. I don't recall how
long, but :it wC:..3n'i: like immediate after the franchise
was awarded.
Q it more than a year?

Q Was it than two years?
A I dDn' i: knew.
Q How did you aware t they hadn 't
started building?
There was a suit filed by some people.
Q t?
Whoever f-Ied the suit.
Q was the suit about?
l:;. The City's the way the franchise
was awarded.
Q Are you referring to the present laws
+-?
l...
Or whatever that suit was that was iled

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Q you were aware

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to go and do any construction.
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were cer_ain that construction be completed
along certa'n cates. 2
Is tha t y::H1r understanding? 3
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A I dor:' t knew.
understanding of what time
requirements were included within franchise for
building the system?
A I don't know those details.
Q

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A 1 n':: remember who told me that. I don't
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Q Ok,c.'{ . ;'i'hy is that?


25 A Eecause I informed that a suit had
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been filed anj claims had been raised and
that the p Ie going to oroceed until those
claims were cleared up.
Q tClld you about a sui t being filed?
A As recall, it was the Ci 's staff. I
don't whc told me that, but what I did was call
Schainker aft'2r that to have a conversation.
Q hTha i: did you tell him in tha t
te one conlersation?
I :_nquired as to, "Wha t 's up?"
Q What did he tell you?
A r'h:li:, in fact, the response of their
or zation Iva::> to K3._.. t to see what the disposi.tion of
the suit was before iCl'esting any money in construction
of the system in L. A.
Q Did yeu ask him why the lawsuit would
proh it them from gcing ahead and building?
No.
Q weren I t you C ous to know what
the lawsuit had to dc y/itr. their not starting construction?
No .
Q Did he te 1 you any other reason besides
the lawsuit why WE'ren't star ng construction that
district?
A The laws u.i only.
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Q ':::'h a. t I e sole reason?
t: I S all = heard.
Q Okay.
A That's all that was said to me.
Q Did you ever discuss it with anybody else
at Kaufman & 3road other than Mr. Schainker?
A No.
Q Did you ever discuss the subject of their
no t builcingvn nker again after that telephone
cor.versatioD?
A I don't recall doing it.
Q Was Kaufman & Broad required to show the
financial capebili to start a franchise prior to eir
r .'?
being awarded the particular South Central :::ranC.:1lse.
Is that correct?
A \'i c. s par-t of the process, yes.
Q Is that :{ou r- understanding?
A I wc:ulc. assume -:::hat was done.
Q Okay. D:J y:m know whether or not they
ever complied with the reqlirements to show that they had
the financing to construct the system?
A I'm sure that they did; otherwise, I don't
think the issue wOLld have come before the council for a
vote.
Q
O!<.ay. So a-::: the tiDe when you contacted
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h::;d the financial ability to complete
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Yes.
25
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in area?
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Q Khat else did you do besides the phone
call?
A Ta:ked my colleagues.
Q was i:hat?
A Cunningham, Lindsey, the mayor's
Q Who on the mayor's staff?
A I think Bill Elkins was lead person
on s issue.
Did you have meetings regarding
A Informal conversations .
Q An6 as a result of these meetings, did you
come to any conclusions the best way to get
construction l the South Central franchise area?
A We all perspect tha t
understood that there was suit filed and that
conduct of Kau & was based on their advisors
telling them that Lhe e was some question about legalities
involved with them forward and they were going to
wait until there was a to the suit before
moving forwarC.
Q
s and your colleagues'
reaction to their reason for not building?
A T:1ders ta ng one.
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Q YOlo felt ttat was 0 ?
lained to me -­
MS. HCLBROOKE: Let se just make sure -­
Excuse me here. I think asking him to s for
s colleagues, which I don't think he can do.
j\s long as you're saying " u" and "your,"
this witness' it:'s fine; but if you're lumping
it in with others' reactions
']'H::: vH TI\ES;: : For me, it was prudent.
fellow said, "';'Ve vi ,un: to be real clear about the claim,
because we're tD be lnvesting a lot of money in
putting wire a F;]ttinq the structure in place."
it seemed reaso leo
Q B:: f'.lr. Lewellyn1 Well, did t explain
to YOL how this 1 t miqht a ect their ility to
b;]iId the :Era
A Ci staff explained that to me.
Q ldhat did. they tell you about that?
MS, HOLBROOKE: If this concerns conversations
he with his relating to the lawsuit, it would
call for privileged infocmat n.
If the conversations are with City staff,
who are not Attcrney's Office, then you can
answer. If, however, the City s f that you're ref ng
to were from the Ci Attorney's Office or they were

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conversations were
Now, let's make sure we have the question.
Q [By Mr.. Le\vel nl Okay. Were you informed
by ar:y people on the City staff about why this lawsuit
would be a justifica an for Kaufman & Broad not proceeding
with the of tte cable system in the South
Central area?
Yes.
Q Okcry. \'Jhat was that?
A That the cou-:::t case put a shadow over on
their =ights to have franchise.
Q Did you ask what that adow was?
Xo.
Q D :lO'L( ave an ur:derstanding of what it
was?
A It was a statement by technicians about a
lay. I just accepted it as a minor delay. During the
whole process, there had been delays. So I viewed it as
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just r1' delay.
Q invo ing the filing of
a were there some other impediments that you're
aware of that caused delay on the part of Kaufman & Broad
initiating constrcction?
A Ko.
Q cid the sJbject of penalt s for not
constructing the ever come up before you outside
of a council meeting?
HOh3ROOKE: Wait. Objection.
Is this limited to Kaufman & Broad's
construct n of the Central? Because

L. •
MS. HOLlUOOKE: The question is whether the
subject 0: imposing penalties on Kaufman & Broad for
fai to construct the system ever came up?
MR. LEWELLYN: With him, right.
THE WITNESS: Not directly with me.
Q [By tv1r. ::',ewellyn] Okay. You never had
any meetings with anytody from Kaufman & Broad about that?
A No .
Q Did :1'0u:1av,= ar.y meetings with any of
Kaufman & Broad's attcrneys regarding that subject?
A No.
Q Did you discuss that sub ect at all
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with Channing
A No.
Q ThE subject came up before City Council
meetings?
A I dontt recall it coming up before council
meetings.
Q
Do you know if any penalties against
Kaufman & Broad for failing to construct were ever
forgiven by the Ci ?
A I dontt know.
Q
Are you aware of the City ever forgiving
any franchisee for giving penalties for failure to
construct a stem'?
MS. HOLBROOKE: Objection. I think that
failure -- Itm sorry. ]';le "forgiving" lS ambiguous.
I'm not sure what you mean.
Q [By Mr. Lewellyn] Normally, there are
penalties, as I understand it, for not completing a
franchise and constructing it according to schedule.
Is that your understanding?
A ..
Q
Ant there's dollar nalties if one does
not comply with those requirements?
A Yes ,.
Q Have there been certain circumstances where
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a franchisee een in violation of the franchise
ailing constrLct and the penal es were not assess ?
A
Q !:.nc:. can yoe:. tell me the names of any of the
fr sees that has occurred?
A I believe there's cu a situation
similar to what described with a Ie franchisee in
the San Fernando Val
Q What's the name of that franchisee?
A It's. r here in the forefront of my
mind. I can I t rec,:;;.ll r now . It may come ln a moment.
Do you know the reason why the Q
penal s were asainst that San Fernando franchisee?
A Not fors: i ven. There were fferences of
opinion as to fact, the construction was done
in a manner. The response was 0 people were
saying were rroblems of City delay, because inspectors
were not there in a timely manner. There was some question
as to whether or not the inspectors were in a timely
manner, number 0= 1.::18 tors.
So what h was there were some
discussions with the DE'];Jartment of l'iater and Power,
and they increased the ::r..lTIlber of inspectors. They worked
out a memorandum of understa ng with the c Ie company
so inspectors would be avai Ie to do inspections in a
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timely manner froD the point of view.
Tha t's
a situation tiat is right now.
Q So how you classi these penalties,
if you don I t want --0 ca 11 them "forgiven"?
;',f.E" HOLBR:)OKE: Isn I t that the defini tion?
Sometimes you do not assess a penalty, and then sometimes
penalties are assessed and then forgiven?
Q [By ;'-1r. Lewellyn] So in this case, were
the penal s aSSE:SS against the San Fernando company?
werE, recom.rnenda tions; but in the
industry and econonic development committee, the file was
held, and the - was made that they not be emented
for ca"Jse. There were certain questions that were raised
by the cable compa:-ly mat:.a.g ers that the commi ttee agreed
with.
Q Wera there any other companies where the
same situation has arisen with them, where the committee
recommended penal t i,'2S be a:3sessed and then they were not
assessed?
A I do;-) I t knol';.
Q You're familiar with the Boyle Heights
franchise?
A Yes.
Q Oka:,' . And operated by Buena Vista
Cable; is that
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A
yes.
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Ok,:y.
No.
say so, yes, from the east side,
construction started there?
know.
Co you know how old that franchise
Who franchise? Who is the owner
sta Cable?
] _ know who owns Buena Vista.
Do you whether Mr. Esparza has any
it was, the ef t that that had
ability to initiate construction,
subsequent meetinSjs with anybody
than the City Attor regarding
A Ko.
ownership in that franchise?
A I he heads that group, whoever
those members are. I don't know all of the people who
are involved in
Q
HaVt=' any penal ties ever been recommended
to be assessed that franchisee?
A I don''C. knew.
Q Oka·} . After you had the discussion with
the City staff about ef t of this lawsuit, whenever
on Kaufman & Broad's
did you any
rom City staff other
that subject?
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DL:. you any scussions with anybody

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A It :::ould be .
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.'l] Q ThE, Access franchise was sold to a new
23
franchisee; is that correct?

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Q That was a ;roup invo ng American Cable
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A Ye::; .
Q And there was also black mino ty groups
who had a partial interest in the new franchise; is that
correct?
A Yes.
Q Okay. XOiv, during this time between the
time that you that a lawsuit had been filed involving
the cable and the time of the franchise
transfer Okay. Do you have that period of time in mind?
A [Nodding. j
Q -- did have any further discussions
with anybody about why was no construction going on
in that area?
A );0.
Q Now, that same period of time,
do you recall the City sending out a request for, I
believe it was information, but it might have been a
request for interests to people who might be interested
in operating a franchise in the South Central area?
A Later did happen.
Q Okay. Is it called a "Request'ror
Information" or "RI"ques t for Interest"? Do you recall?
A I don I t: n;;call.
Q And you :,now what 11m referring to?
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A No.
Q YO'j se:1t out -­
[Discussion held off the record.]
Q Lev;ellyn 1 Did the City at one point
send out a for interest to people who might want
to build in the South central area?
A comes up later in the sequence .
Q Okay. \-,Jhere in the sequence is that?
A Just a sh-:)rt while ago.
Q Okay. j3ut that was be e franchise
was transferred to Ame,;:ican, was it not?
A I don 't: .L'l::call.
Q At any rate, what is your
understanding what request for interest involved?
A I recall it.
Q Was there ever a subsequent request for
proposal sent out after that second one wherein Access
was awarded the
A I don't. ;cnoIJl.
Q Is it your understanding that American
Cable Systems -- Strike that question .
The franchise that Access owned was
trans to Ame:cican Cable, correct?
A Yes.
Q Okay. Then::: '",asn I t a whole new bidding
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process; is that
A 'To .e best of my knowledge, ri
Q Oka.y .. Xow, why is it that there was no
request proposal time and, instead, it was just
transferred'?
A I 6on'l:' knew.
Q Did you discuss that with anybody?
A Ko.
Q cid that ::oncern you at all that it wasn't
being opened up the process?
A No.
Q Cid you take any s to see that whoever
obtained the franchise had any principals that are involved
in the black business in your area?
A No.
Q And why was that, that you didn't
do that?
A When there was the discussion of the
transfer, the minori partners that were with Broad,
as I understand it, were taken over and made part of
the minority component at American Cable. So that it
was basical a of Kaufman & Broad.
Q And the minority interest remained the
same?
To the best of my knowledge, that's the
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way t took ;)lace.
Q
that a uirernent approval
of the ise they accept the minority interest
as part -­
A I don't know if that was a requirement.
Q you with any discussions
with anybody from Cable stems about this
transfer of franchise from Kaufman & Broad to
American C3.ble?
A Ko, no discussions.
Q AI' ri t. Have you ever met with anybody
Excuse me.
u ever met with anybody personally
who represented ican Ie Systems?
A .
Q And who have you met with?
A I principals when they came out from,
I think, Boston to say, "WE're American Cable. T,'Je ' re
interes in over. We just wanted to come
by and meet you."
Q Do recall who they were?
A No.
Q An}' other meetings with Arne can Cable
personnel besides that
A Perhaps once when some of their principals
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came out thei.r organization in Boston. I
recall the flane of their local consultant, but
they have a local law firm or cable consultant working
with them. I met Wl- that person, who subsequently
introduced me to of the people who were to be
operating the faci1i here.
Q Oka.y. And were these meetings before the
transfer e franchise actually occurred?
A No, after,
Q the transfer of the franchise,
had you had any mee ngs with anybody from American Cable?
A One, I think a courtesy sit that they
said, "We I re Amer],. ::an, and we I re here. Do you have any
ques tions?"
Q Was any:o besides American Cable personnel
present at that meeting?
A No, just me and the American Cable people.
Q And that was the only meeting you had with
them before the approval of the transfer?
A As I recall, yes.
Q Okay. Did you discuss with them nority
participation in their franchise at this initial
No. It was part of their presentation.
Q What did they tell you about that?
That, in essence, the people who were with
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Q Was Mr. Soley one of the people who was
present at that initial reeeting?
A I don't recall if he was at that particular
meeting. He was present at subsequent meetings.
Q
And there was nobody present from Kaufman &
Broad at that initial meeting?
A Ko.
Q Kow, in the subsequent meetings you had,
you mentioned you met with a law firm that represented
American Cable.
A The person they had retained to
assist them going through the City of Los Angeles'
process was a lawyer or a consultant that has worked
the cable franchise process. I can't recall the fellow.
Q
Does law firm Alschuler, et al. -­
A It may be.
Q Was Burt Pines the lawyer that came out?
A No. I don't see Burt as the fellow.
Q Mr. Z a ::1 (Ji>i i 11 ?
A No, unless I'm getting my individuals mixed
up. No. ::::t ';.,;asn't a named "Zangwi11.f!
Q What was the purpose of that mee ng that
you had with the law firm that represented American Cable?
A To just have them inquire if there were
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rl g ntleman that you mentioned was present _j
Q ;'>lr.
rl Yeo; .
Q Was that by telephone?
1\ No, In mv office.
Q this was after the transfer?
!\
Q A.nc; who put. ther that meeting?
A I (Sid.
Q And what the purpose?
A To if financial resources in a black
cOr:1muni savings and loan -­
Q What was their response?
? That they would look into
Q Which savings and loan d you want them
to -­
A Fam"ly Savings & Loan. The issue was raised
specifical around FamiLy.
Q Fam:ly Savings & Loan is the name of a
savings and loan -­
A
It is one of the three black savings and
loans in Los Angeles.
The P1..:Y se of that was they were going to
be in the cable franchise serving community. I wanted
to in conversations with them to ascertain to what
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extent they were oin; to be with blacks, to
what extent they were goi to be working with the
black siness South Los Angeles.
Q nc Is of Family Savings &
Loan?
A A by the name of 01 Tr g is
chairman of the bO::ird. A gentleman by the name of Robert
30wden is the president.
There may have been some changes recently;
but the point was to beg a conversation, since they were
ng to be s nding lot of money and they were going to
have a payroll, see i_ they would put some of that money
on deposit in the and since their parent
corpor was invol '/ed in ventt;,re capital, to ascertain
',."hether they were 90in9 t:::l be doing anything in the Los
Angeles black business
Q yon eVE:r have any similar conversat ns
wi th anybody at KcLui'man & Broad regarding having the
deposits for r cable Eystem 90 through a savings and
loan in your district?
A No. The conversations with Kaufman &
Broad had to do _h joint. ventures in the housing
activi to invol\'c black persons and to make sure
blacks were r supplier stream.
Q Ant who dit you have those meetings with?
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inker and d ctly with
Eli 3 him:self
I askej of everyone that I have any
interaction with. It's another one of my principles,
like one if at all possible, to have the
ty exte to African-American firms if the
lness is goiro; to be in South Central L. A., an
element 0 lng to see affirmat action, minority
business participa on .
LContinued on e 122.]
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Q rIm unclear with Broad. rIm not. sure of
your request to them.
Would repeat what that was or explain
it to them? You said you a request with Eli Broad
LEh'CLLYN: We can read it back.
[Reco:::-d
Q [By Mr. Lewellyn] Now, as a result of your
discussion with Mr. Broad about doing joint ventures with
blacks in terms 0::: hO..1sinq activities within your district,
did they ever go about and do that?
A Wel', I asked it about them in general, as
they do business, not in my district. One of the sad
commentaries about industry in this city is that
most of those rr.ajcr rs do not build in the inner-
city. They do not. build in my district, but i'1r. Broad
has done some proJect3 along the Century Freeway. r.1r. Broad
is doing a lot of in San Bernardino and Riverside
County.
The was in a broader way, you know,
the corporate responsibili.ty of Kaufman & Broad.
Q c you give to him any names 0 people whom
you thought 8e appropriate for h to erlter into
joint ventures witi terms of housing?
A No. the construction area, there are
a number of organizations out there that speci cal
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________________________________ 123
provide that :'n nnation. I just, as a political
fluential, stige in the way of my sence
be re Broad to as:';: Llat of him.
Q Do you :'Cnmv' whethe:c he did follow through
with your suggesd.on dnd do any joint ventures with any
black groups?
A I'm that there was some discussion,
particularly vii th the Watts labor community ac on
com.;nittee,
Q
& Broad d
communi ty
A
Q
and the:::-e rLay have been others.
Do you know of any projects that Kaufman
on a basis with the Watts
action C':)rrm1:l t tee?
No.
Who are the directors or principals of the
Watts community action cor:m1ittee?
A The key executive is a fellow by the name
of Ted Watkins. Bp has been the executive director since
its founding. TheJ work primarily in the \-Jatts communi
and portions of my COllstituents and that of Mr. Lindsey.
Q Any other Joint ventures that you know of,
black joint venturers who worked with Kaufman & Broad on
any projects following your scussions with them?
A No.
stion to Mr. Soley that
they make their the Family Savings & Loan.
Q Back to your
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Do you know if they eventually did do that?
A No. It was simply a request to make of them.
Q Okay. You no knowledge one way or the
other whether or not they actually made deposits in a
Family Savings & Loan?
A No. I knml they may. I don't know if, in
fact, there was as a result of that. The goal
was to encourage them to do
Q
Do you who Mr. So met with out at
Fa--nily S ng5 & Loa:1';>
A 1 think he net with Mr. Bowden.
Q D you ha7e
an:l llow-up meeting with
Mr. Soley about the - banking?
A No. It was simply a request.
Q D you ever have
A Do you know the fference?
Q 1 suppose so.
A A .rE!que st. If you were to come and say,
"I'm going to open up a law business down in your district,
and I just want to let you know that I'm doing it,
Councilman, II at so::ne?oi nt, I miqht call you and say,
IILook, you're goin9 t.O up a business here .
What about some business with folks in your
community," anc that would not be like a mandate on you,
or ask you to co me a favor. It's just something I do
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to try to r:.i3Jor organizations, people who are
coming into the COIT1fm:li ty to do busine ss with folks in
my South Los Angeles const:i tuent. That's all that was.
Did you have any follow-up meetings with
Mr. Soley regardiWJ that he do busines s with any
other black businessmen in your district?
No.
Have you ever had similar meetings with
anybody outside of Mr. Soley or Mr. Broad where you've
requested thai: they (io business with black businessmen?
l'I:S. flOL3Rom:E: You're talking about any
meetings at any -::i::1e his whole council career?
'J'HE 'iJ::::T>mss: It's a standard part of the
way I do my bU51ness.
[By Lewellyn] Okay. I should narrow
it down" Anybody involved in the cable industry besides
Mr. Soley or Mr. Broaj, do you recall any meetings you've
had with people in the cable where those subjects
came up
')
..
A All of them, all of the people who were at
City Hall, who have to get a franchise, I've
asked this in one way or other. I've raised the issue
at the association.
Why don't we just take about
I a five-r break?

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Q Inc tally, while we
were on the break, n your file, I ran across these two
names of two business cards American
Cable Systems . One h s Dodge's name on , and the
other is Mr. Kee
these also people that you met with
11" These were the key people I told you
about, the ones that came out representing Ame can Cable.
came out the first t ?
I th k ese were the peop who I met with
f time.
Q Okay.
)
you ever meet with them again?
11" This is when they came around and said,
"We I re l\..:.-nerican Cilble."
Did you meetings with anybody from
Kau
& Broad the transfer of the ise to
American Cable?
A I think I one meeting. It was a
conversat
followed by a personal visit of Sam Williams,
Attorney Sam Williams.
Q Who initiated that mee ng?
He did.
Q Mr. Wil:iams is a 1 r th the Hufs ler
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P. Yes.
Q And he contacted you in his capaci
representing Broad?
Yes.
11 you the purpose of the
meeting was going to ?
To advi e me of some of the s tha't
were coming the Eranchise.
Q And i:1e so?
Yes ..
Kas thi3 when he told you wanted to
transfer
1'i Ye:3 ..
Q D he tell you at that meeti that they
already had a transferee in ?
A At time, he just told me about the
decision made by about transfer.
Die he tell you why they wanted to
transfer ?
No. We didn't get into that.
Q
An,:: he :Hdn't tell you who they \lere goi
to tran:3 r it to'?
iCl,. I den't re::::all
Q So .I t3.ke i-: s meeting with Mr. Hilliam:s
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',vas before a:1Y neetin::Js \-iith Ane::::-ican Cable stems?
A Yes.
Q Okay. Lid you ask why they were going
to transfer it?
A No.
Q Did 2'oU ask him what was going to happen
with the 20-percent minority interest in Access?
A No.
Q Did you discuss with him their ability to
unilaterally their franchise?
A No.
Q Did you tell them that you thought that
this might be s ClITle ng that required City approval?
A No.
Q Did YCL tel' them anything at the meeting?
A. No.
Did you have any follow-up meet s with
anybody KaufTIhln & Broad or with Mr. Williams regarding
the transfer?
No. No.
Did :lOU give him any adv e as to potential
groups or entities which you thought might be interested
in obtaining that ise?
No.
Do why it was that you were contacted
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an a t.torney as sed t:o an loyee of Kaufman & Broad?
No ..
Did dy explain to you that, "Kaufman
& Broad \'v'ants me to come out for these reasons"?
He ment_cnet that his phone conversation.
What d he tell you that?
He said he was calling representing his
client Kaufman & Broad . Ee wanted to talk to me about
a decision they had rna and when came to the office,
he told me.
Q Did he a anything new, to your knowledge,
other than what he told you on the phone, that they were
going to transfer their franchise?
He had a sentation about the transfer
of the anchi.se. Maintaining minority ticipations
was one of their g::)a:_:3, and several other items .
t ot:her items were In t presentation?
1\ As 1 reciO.ll, the summary of the presentation
was that: s stand pretty much the they were .
The only thi di:: fe rent It/ou be Kaufman & B would
be out, and someone e.Lse WOll be in.
Was a written presentation?
Oral.
anybody else re at the presentation?
No.
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c Did ycu ask h how they were going to
assure
at t:1is minority maintain an interest
in the franchise?
A No.
Q
Other t:nan representatives from American
Cable Systems Mr. Williams, who represented Kaufman
& Broad, did you meet with any other individuals regarding
the transfer of the franchise before
actually occurred?
MS. HOLEROOKE: Are you talking about other
than A:nerican or fi.aufman & Broad representatives?
MH. LE'i'JELLYN: Yes.
MS. HOLEROOKE:
And you were leaving in the
question any Ci_y or sta_f consideration?
MH. Lm'JE LLYN:
No, other than City staff
or C Counc:Llmen.
THE iHT:KESS: [Shaking head.]
Q
[By Mr. Lewellyn]
Did you have any meetings
with any City staff at out the transfer before it actually
occurred?
A Yes.
Q And who did you meet with in that regard?
A I recall, but it was City staff
contacting my 0 fi:e to let us know via City staff about
the & Broat transfer.
Q Did Susan Herman contact you regarding that?
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I dO:1' recall i it was Susan Herman out
of te leCOITLlllUnicationE; or i:: was someone from the City
legislative analyst's office.
Q Did JOU actual meet with them about that?
It was a very brief meeting, because
Williams had alre me the framework for it; and
I just thi s t:) be thE! off ial contact by the City,
given the fact that th were notified by Kaufman & Broad,
or however that process
Did scuss with anybody on the City
staff other than atto s, of course, the possibility
of opening up t ira. ise for new proposals?
No.
d you know of any impediment This is
at the time you arned that Kaufman & Broad wi
to transfer the I
aware of any impediments to them
doing that, 1 or othenvise?
1\ No.
1-\s - as you were concerned, was
perfect y fo:: to do?
[vIS. HO::'BROOt,E: Okay. 's a different
ques n, ther he was aware of any or other
nts. That'3 different than: \'Jas rfectly
okay fo:: them to 60?

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As far as you were
Q
conce was tran;::; r you had an objection
to?
A
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Do you know of any prohibi s regarding
transfers of franchises where there's
n no particular
construction going or in particular ise?
A, No.
NR. l.JEWELLYN: Why don't we take a break
here, and we'll re:3ume at another date and time.
MS. HOLBRCOKE: How much more do you have?
i>1R. LEv,IELLYN: I would half a day.
]\1S. E: We had documents from
Councilman Farrell's ()ffice that had been available for
counse
for some timE!, a,nc, tho se were produced this
morning to Lewe I
MR.
Off the record.
[Discussion held off
record. ]
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We'll retain the original.
1I:S. HOL3RClOKE:
And a copy should go to
Ms. Smith of
Office, and then we'll
arrange for ting signature and
notary -- The
reporter is reli
:)f any obli ion with regard to
signature.
THE RE?OWl'ER: Under lty of perjury?
.______________________--.--J
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':-18. HOLBROOKE::
Under penalty of perjury.
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The deposition will be continued at a later
3 I date, pursuant to agreement of counsel.
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Is that correct, Mr. Lewellyn?
NR. Correct. Correct.
at 2:45 p.m., the deposition
was adjourned sine die.l
I declare under penalty of
rjury
of the laws of the State of California
th t the foregoing is true and correct.
Dated this
day of
19E8.
***
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CERTIFICATE

STATE OF CALIFORX A
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a notary public in and for the County of Los Angeles,

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State of and declare:
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deposition may be corrected and signed by the
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deposition, as typed, is a true That the f
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IN WHEREOF, I have SUbscl;>i:bed my name and
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POLK COURT REPORTEflS C.,li/;.J 2Jll'o$ilioll 17ola,i,$
606 S. Olive Street, Suite 307, Los Angeles, Calif. 90014 Local Telephone (213) 625-7615
Call Toll- Free Outside Califomia SOO 533-5640 • Inside Califomia 800 533-5(i41
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1 I I I I I I I I I I I 1··/ I I I I I· I I I 1 I I I
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TRlCE:NTENNIAL
11776-2076
When in the course of Iluman events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve
the political bands which have connected themv'Jith ar.other, and to assume among
the powers of the earth the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature
and of nature's God entItle them, a dm:ent respect to the opinions of mankind
requires that they should tne causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are
endowed by their Creator with certain u'l3Iie'nabie rights, that aMong th8se are life.
liberty, and the pursuit of happiness; tllat to secure these rights, governments are
instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of ttle governed;
that whenever any form of becomE's destructive of these ends, it is the
right Of the people to alter or to abclish t, a!'ld to institute new government, laying
its foundation on such pri'lcip1es, and Jrganizing its powers in such form. as to
them shall seem most likely to effect theH safety and happiness. 'Prudence, indeed,
will dictate that governments long estaJlishea should not be changed forlight and
transient causes; and acccrdingiy all eoer;ence has shown that mankind are more
disposed to suffer, wtli Ie evils sufferClD'e than to right themselves by abol ishing
the forms to which thE3y are accustomed. But 'vvhen a long train of abuses and usurp­
ations, pursuing invariably the san'e object, evinces a design to reduce them under
absolute despotism, it is their righ1. it is duty, to throw off such government,
and to provide new ,guards for thl:;ir futurE! security. Such has been the patient
sufferance of these colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them
to alter their former of ....
We, therefore, the representatives of United States of America, in general
congress assembled, appealing to the Judge of the World for the rectitude
of our intentions, do, in the namE' and by authority of the good people of these
colonies, solemnly publish and declare, that ttlese United Colonies are, and of right
ought to be, free and indElpenden': ... and that as free and independent
States, they have full pownr to levy war. conclude peace, and do all other acts and
things which independent States may of do. And for the support of this
Declaration, with firrn relia.nce on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually
pledg€3 to each othm our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor....
We, the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish
justiCE3, insure domestic tranquillity, provide lor the common defense, promote the
general welfare, and the of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do
o:dair and establisti this Consti':ution for the United States of America.
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