MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 Interview with Lieutenant Seagraves, S1018 June 13, 2011

(Long pause) LICKING: Alrighty, uh, time is about, uh, about 8:59. Uh, today is June the 13 , 2011. Uh, for the transcript, um, I’m Sergeant Brad Licking, 1122. Um, L-T, do you mind giving your name and serial number.
th

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Uh, Kim Seagraves, 1018. Okay, and? Sergeant Denise Thompson, 6183. Alright, perfect. Um, what I wanted to do just kinda real quick and, uh, what not I, for the sake of saving time, uh, the transcription I’ve got just copy. Well, the actual original, uh, Garrity and the Notice of Investigation from before. This is, uh, IA case 08-0080. Um, did you want me to review these? No, you don’t need to. Okay. Okay, great, so obviously, just uh, we’ll be aware that Garrity is, uh, still in place and the NOI is, uh, still in place for this. If I could also say something, uh, in reference to the NOI. Sure.

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 SEAGRAVES: LICKING: SEAGRAVES: LICKING: There are have been some people that I discussed that with. Okay. So if you need me to clarify. Um, sure, um, since you bring it up. Who, who was it that you, you’ve discussed? Um, I went to a counselor. Okay. And I went to my family doctor. Obviously, discussed it with my husband. Okay. Um, I also, um, spoke to a, a, an attorney. Not sure if I said that already. Um, during the course of a deposition with Michael Manning, um, he represented Sandra Dowling and the state, um, versus Sandra Dowling, the County or they’re suing, uh, civilly for money, um, for civil rights violations. And during that process, uh, the day before I spent with Lisa Lawling, who is a, an attorney that represents even Joe Arpaio. And so although I didn’t go into specifics, I just acknowledged that there was a, um, investigation going on and I couldn’t discuss it unless I was ordered to by a Judge… Okay. …and that during the process, uh, I wanted to know that the Babeu

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 investigation had just come out and that I had a feeling that Michael Manning was going to talk about that and I wanted her to be aware that I couldn’t speak about it unless ordered to do so by a Judge. LICKING: SEAGRAVES: Okay. Um, Lisa Lawling was really unaware that the investigation had anything to do with me; however, Michael Manning was very aware of that. Okay. So. Okay, perfect, okay. Um, yeah, it sounds like everything kinda fits and, uh, and you and you’ve, obviously, uh, stuck with, um, what you, who you can and can’t speak with about that. Um, here’s, uh, today’s, uh, Employee Observer Waiver. I noticed that you know we talked before you got here. You said you weren’t gonna bring one so if you don’t mind just signing and dating that. (Pause) And today, basically, I’m gonna, we’re gonna kinda rehash a little bit of the stuff that that we had talked about before. (Cough) Excuse me. Um, and what not. What I was kinda hopin’ to start off with, um, again, this case is obviously, uh, you know several years old and what not. And it’s been a little bit harder to kinda come up with, with an accurate timeline of who was in the SVU, um, for for what times and what not. If from the time you got there if you can just tell me, um, who obviously you were the Sergeant of Special Victims Unit. Um, who, who were the

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 Detectives there? Um, who was assigned, uh, as Sex Crimes Detectives? Who was assigned as, uh, the sex notification, uh, unit personnel? And then who was the Lieutenant, the Captain and the Chief, um, of that area? SEAGRAVES: LICKING: SEAGRAVES: Okay. Um, goin’ on my memory. Sure. Uh, when I got there, uh, Lieutenant Fred McCann was the Lieutenant. Um, and I am not sure if Bill Knight at the time was the Captain, because I know that this is what I remember but whether or not it was during my duration I’m, I’m not 100 percent sure. Um, Captain Beamish was there and then Captain Beamish was transferred to District I and, um, there was the break up of the TOU team which put Felbab there. But I think that was just briefly and. Would he, would he have been over SVU at the time? Um, all of GID which included SVU. Okay. And then at some point, uh, I think Bill Knight took over and then after he was promoted, um, within six months of him being a Captain then I think he went to the 19th floor. And then from there I got Whitney. That’s kinda what I remember. And so when I was there, um, my direct chain of command was Lieutenant McCann and then shortly after it was, um, Hank Brandimarte until, um, I wrote the memo of concern in reference to his behavior and then he was Investigator: Sgt. B. Licking S1122/Sgt. D. Thompson A6183 Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #0982 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: June 13, 2011/1230 hours Page 4 of 57

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 replaced by, uh, Lieutenant Schoeninger. And the Captain during that duration was Whitney. LICKING: Okay. Um, Lieutenant Schoeninger, did he come in and just, uh, and again I, I understand it’s you know it’s, everybody’s workin’ kinda off memory and what not. Was that around December of ’07? Does that sound about right? Do you remember? Hum, no, I don’t. I don’t remember exactly when it was. I know he wasn’t there long and then ‘cause I think he left Training and he wasn’t happy about it and he wanted to get back to Training. Okay. But I don’t, specifically, remember how long he was there. Who, who took now he transferred out before you got promoted and transferred out, is that right? Did you get? Yeah. Who was the, the last Lieutenant that you had? Um, he was my last Lieutenant. Oh, he was your last Lieutenant, okay. And then at some point in there, Penny Babb came in. Right.

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And I, and I remember it was kind of like a spur of the moment thing because she was in the conference room and she didn’t have an office. There was no office for her, so they kinda, it had two doors kind of like we use for a briefing area and they kinda lock one door. And she was kind of in this room and a little desk in this big room so I think she was just there during her time till she retired. Okay. Um, so she wasn’t really my, my Captain ‘cause at that they had split the duties in GID. But I don’t remember what her duties were. I just remember my still my chain of command while I was there was Whitney. Okay. And then I know that after I left, um, there was a brief phone call that I had with Jim Weegee, who was unhappy with Lugo, so apparently Lugo had taken my spot. And his Lieutenant was, um, Riddle and they were unhappy with them and they called; they, I’m saying I believed it was well, it was Jim that called me for sure but I’m sure it was talking with the other people that were still in the unit at the time. Okay. And they were gonna go talk to Penny Babb. Okay. And from what I understood from Penny Babb that that did not go well.

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 She didn’t like it. She felt it was an inappropriate kind of, um, I don’t know, a coup against Lugo and,… LICKING: SEAGRAVES: Sure. …um, Riddle and so whatever happened with that I never spoke to Jim again about it. So it was your understanding that Riddle took Schoeninger’s place then? Does that sound right? Yeah. Okay. Who, who were the, uh, Sex Crimes Detectives when you got there? Um, let’s see there were, um, the notification folks was Terry Lopez and I, I vaguely remember Terry working there ‘cause I think her time was split between, um, Arson. But she also was out a lot because of medical issues and her son does, uh, modeling like he gets you know, um, gigs at you know for Kohl’s and so he does print media. So she always is having to leave. So I felt like although she was there, she really was never really there. So Terry Lopez and, um, Sherry Decker who did notification and Shannon Reed. And then at some point during the process while I was still there, um, Lopez left and we never got a replacement for her. Okay. So those were, um, those folks there.

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 LICKING: SEAGRAVES: LICKING: SEAGRAVES: LICKING: SEAGRAVES: Right. Okay. And Jon Felbab was there when I was there. Um, Jim Weegee, Mary Ward, Roy Rojas. I’m sorry (unintel 14:29) you, you said it was Felbab? Felbab, um, Jim Weegee,… Okay. …Mary Ward… Okay. …and, um,… You mentioned Rojas, too. …Rojas was there. Okay. And that was just the notifica-… Um hum. …the sex offender notification section?

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And briefly Cockerham was there but then he ended up leaving. And I, I mean it was so it, it was in with weeks of me being there. So I, I don’t know if that was a planned thing… Okay. …or if he was going somewhere else or. And then I’m missing one person. Um,… Haarala? …Eric Haarala was there. Okay. Um, now for the most part while you were there, I’m assuming that Felbab, Weegee, Ward and Rojas pretty much were the constants. W- were they still all there when, when you transferred out? Yes. Okay. And is it, am I correct in saying that, at least from what I’ve seen, it looked like it was around June of ’07 that Eric Haarala had transferred out? I don’t remember. Okay. I, he was on my list to get out from the moment I observed his work and how he interacted with the squad and, um, his inability to be

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 confrontational during interviews. And he had a whole different thought process about, um, I’m gonna say this word; it’s my word like the mojo of it. It was bad energy, didn’t want tapes in his office. Um, didn’t wanna look at you know any porno tapes that were required to do because. LICKING: SEAGRAVES: LICKING: SEAGRAVES: Right, and I remember that from the, the last one. Yeah, yeah. Just he just wasn’t workin’ out. (Unintel 16:10). No, I think it was inappropriate place for him to be. It just didn’t mesh with him. I think it’s inner turmoil with his religion I think really he couldn’t do the job. And is it my understanding that, uh, Michael Brooks took his place? SEAGRAVES: LICKING: SEAGRAVES: LICKING: SEAGRAVES: LICKING: Um,… Do you remember? …yeah, I believe so. Okay. Um, so if I’ve got this right you had at least to begin with you had three people for the notification section until Terry Lopez left and Yes. Okay. And did Brooks was Brooks there until you transferred out?

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 it just got, uh, knocked down to Sherry Decker and Shannon Reed? SEAGRAVES: LICKING: SEAGRAVES: Yeah, she left very early. Okay. I mean I don’t even remember her being a significant part of the, the team at all. Okay. Um, how many months roughly do you think she was there? Oh, maybe a couple months by the time I was there. Okay. I mean I’m just going by memory. Sure. Okay, um, and so we had just primarily five Detectives that were assigned to the Sex Crimes cases. Um, Felbab, Mary Ward, Jim Weegee, Roy Rojas and Michael Brooks, yes. Alright. Okay, um, that helps a little bit. And again, uh, that seems to be you know… Um hum. …everybody’s workin’ off of memory…

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 SEAGRAVES: LICKING: Um hum. …and it’s hard to remember dates and all that. But, um, I just wanted to have the best timeline possible so we know who was there… Okay. …and when and what not. Um, one of the things that we had talked about, um, in a previous, um, interview was like training issues and what not. When I had, uh, Lieutenant McCann in here, um, he mentioned that he had, um, and and and the reason I bring this up is because one of the things that you had mentioned was that you really kinda had to do like a self taught thing when it had come to RMS. Um hum. Um, and that there really wasn’t any like formalized training for you when you first got there. Um hum. Um, this is an email that Fred, um, said that he had sent to both you and to Matt Summers in regards to, uh, RMS the RMS training and what not. And as you can see that you know he’s saying that really any of the Detectives that you have there in your section, I mean it’s the, the actually training is, is there for you... Um hum. …um, and what not. Do you, did you ever participate in any formal

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 RMS training? SEAGRAVES: Um, I did but I don’t remember when it was. Um, I do remember Travis Pierce giving, um, lessons so I do remember… Okay. …being somewhere where he was teaching. Okay. Um, and the reason this at least in particular happens to be an issue is because Lieutenant McCann mentioned that, um, he had asked both Harvey and Newton, um, and now it wasn’t always up and runnin’ when Harvey was there but near the end when, when Don Harvey was the SVU Sergeant. And it was certainly up and running by the time Darrell was there. Um hum. But, um, he had asked that both of them use RMS as their case tracking system. And he said that at that time, um, he was under the impression that both of them were utilizing, um, RMS for their case tracking and that when you transferred in to the SVU as the Sergeant… Um hum. …that, um, he said he remembered specifically talking to you about RMS that the previous Sergeants had used it and that he, um, expected you to use RMS as for case tracking as well. Do you recall that? No, I don’t.

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Okay. I don’t. And I don’t remember when I had a conversation with, uh, both of those former Sergeants that they mentioned RMS at all. But I do, I do remember going to a class and I do remember Travis Pierce being the instructor, whether or not it was this time frame or another time frame I don’t know. Um. And just for the transcript, um, uh, McCann sent this particular one to you and Matt Summers on July 25th, 2006. So, um, but you, you said you did at least have a chance to do some formal RMS training, whether it was this one or not, you at least got some formalized training of RMS? Is that, is that? Well, I don’t wanna say it’s in depth as, as… Right. …other than how to put things in. Okay. I mean that’s and I, and I did do that you know. Right. I did use RMS for that. Okay.

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But RMS isn’t always accurate. Things that come from the District that they don’t put RMS in and it’s not coded correctly, then it doesn’t matter if I pull RMS daily. If the information isn’t accurate it’s not accurate. CAD would be more accurate than RMS. Okay. And, um, and clearly when I, we talked about the memo that I submitted through the chain of command that went to Freeman that had the sticky note on it that is exactly the type of you know case tracking, if you wanna call it that. I mean it really wasn’t a case tracking system, but a comparison between CAD and RMS because some things would be in CAD. Some things would not be in RMS. Um, CAD was more accurate because that’s the Dispatchers; however, if there was, um, nothing put in the system by the, uh, El Mirage officers then it goes into a void. And there may still be some that are in the void that have never been identified if victims don’t call in. Sure. So, um, and I did utilize. And, and just from brief understanding of RMS… Um hum. …I mean there’s like different initial face sheet pages that you can fill in. But if you don’t go back in and update some of the back pages with the right codes, then things aren’t up to date and you can’t pull things out

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 correctly. SEAGRAVES: LICKING: SEAGRAVES: Well, things change. Exactly. Yeah. Because sometimes, um, you can read CAD and it’ll say, um, something totally different, but the way it's coded would be an open garage as opposed to, uh, 262 which is a Sex Crime thing. Right, okay. And we also had an issue with that and, um, Newton who took over before me, um, my understanding is that he never did RMS but the RMS was done by, uh, Sherry, um, Sheryl Lawless, who put in RMS for him. So. Would she have been one of the Admin people? She’s an Admin person. She was the one who also assigned those cases to the investigator, which I made note in one of the documents that I sent you which was a supervisory person. Right, okay. Um, one of the next things, um, you had mentioned before that you know you never really got any type of, uh, discipline or anything in regards to, um, how things were run or operated. In fact, you guys had received, uh, numerous awards in the SVU and what not. Um hum. Um, Captain Whitney ended up sending me what he called his, uh,

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 Captain’s log. Um, and although it doesn’t show up in any of, uh, uh, your, um, employee performance evaluations and what not… SEAGRAVES: LICKING: Um hum. …um, for the sake of the transcript, um, this is the General Investigations Division’s Captain’s Log, November 2007. Uh, the date’s, uh, November the 19th of ’07. Under the topic Person Involved, it just has Kim and then it says for the topic and stuff it says talked to Kim regarding El Mirage cases and importance of case management. Um, when I talked to Captain Whitney he said that on that particular date and time this was, um, when you all were still trying to compile cases there at the end and get him over to El Mirage and what not. He did talk to you about, uh, the El Mirage cases and you did, um, and it was brief but he did, um, stress the importance of case management and accurately tracking cases. Do you recall that conversation with him? SEAGRAVES: I do not. As a matter of fact, my conversations with Whitney were always extremely limited. I don’t know if that would coincide with the time that I wrote the letter about, um, Hank Brandimarte. I don’t know if those days coincide. But the only time that Whitney even sat down with me, oh, and it wasn’t even sat down. It was you know standing at my door was that, uh, he was very disappointed in, uh, what SVU had given in reference to El Mirage. And I told him that I gave him everything that was asked of us by, um, Hank Brandimarte, which Hank Brandimarte said just a couple sentences. And then he said well, I really wanted you to give me a paragraph. And I said well, you should have said a paragraph. We gave you a couple of sentences. I thought I was gonna get with my counterpart. So there was nothing negative that the Captain ever relayed to me in reference

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 that. He apologized to me for the misunderstanding and he felt it was on his end and Brandimarte’s end and that he was gonna go to each of the squad members to apologize. But it was never anything, um, of a I’m disappointed in you sort of thing. It was, don’t get me wrong, he was upset and embarrassed because he was having to call, um, uh, Frazier or he was told that he had to call Frazier. It’s like that’s what he told me. I assumed it was from somebody on a higher level than him, um, to try to make amends because Frazier was upset and had made some negative statements in the newspaper. But never once has Whitney sat down and given me anything that I thought was a counseling thing, never. LICKING: SEAGRAVES: LICKING: Okay, okay. So I can’t explain that. Okay, alright. Um, (pause) when we talked the last time I had asked you to bring in, um, just different documentation and you, and you brought in quite a bit of, uh, emails and what not that showed, um, that the SVU during different times had been tasked with certain details and what not. And some of the issues that were raised for the SVU was that well, that was bodies that were being pulled from their normally assigned duties is, is you know the actual case,… Um hum. …uh, Sex Crimes cases, um, and so for those time periods when they were pulled for the Special Details, um, you know it became that much harder for you all to work your normal cases…

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Um hum. …because people… Um hum. …were off doing different things. Um, you know by and large the, at least the the documents that you brought showed that the like the Warrants detail was in September, um, of ’07. Um, there was some, uh, meetings that, uh, Whitney had asked that you be a part of that were in, uh, the state capital in October of ‘07. Um, and then there were some other things that happened in November of ’07. But, um, was there anything prior to that that we can actually put some dates to maybe time frames, which Detectives may have worked it?

SEAGRAVES: LICKING: Um, how long they may have worked those details prior to that, um, that would actually have direct impact on the? On the unit? Right. Um, you know what I provided you, uh, was just a, a sliver of what, what really goes on there. Um, I saved a lot of documentation. I provided a lot of documentation, uh, back, back when I spoke initially spoke with Brandon Luth. And then I’m not sure if I gave Bruce Tucker any additional stuff like I gave you this time here. I turned over everything I have.

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 Although, it’s not a complete picture you know at some point I got to realize that I should probably be saving some of this stuff because I had been complaining and letting my chain of command know that we can’t keep up. And so there were a lot of things that happened you know prior to me starting to document it. I think I provided, I think, I could be wrong I mean sitting in your chair, maybe people do provide as much documentation. But I think I provided a voluminous amount of documentation to support some of the issues that I thought might be brewing on the horizon that might come back to hit me personally or to affect my squad or to some how, um, that I might need to just save for whatever reason save them. So there were a lot of things that that I participated in as my squad did that I don’t have documentation. Um, the, I’ll tell you some things I remember but I could not tell you the dates. I, um, all I know is that, um, I was asked to go to a place and I, I don’t even know the name of it. It was near the zoo. It’s all with a bunch of rocks and it’s where Homeland Security people go, and it’s like a, um, it’s, it’s a set up of if there was a mass disaster. SEAGRAVES: LICKING: SEAGRAVES: LICKING: SEAGRAVES: Right. Do you know what I’m talkin’ about? It’s like the state disaster prepares. Yeah, something, something like that. It’s based over there by the National Guard.

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 LICKING: SEAGRAVES: Right, right. And I was hooked up with, uh, Lieutenant, uh, John Bailey to be part of that so he might know more about that. I attended four meetings which were I was giving a lot of information that I had to read. I mean like binders of stuff, how to prepared if there’s an evacuation. And I’m just reading this stuff and I told my supervisor I said, this based on what I’m reading, this is like via my chain. I mean this is not for a line level supervisor to go. And eventually, I sat through the meeting and then for meetings I had to go numerous times and I, I think I went at least five times and it was like a whole week of preparation that I had to do myself because it was reading that was given to me by John Bailey saying you need to know this stuff. So when finally during the meeting they actually asked me what my position was I told them I was a supervisor and I was still on probation ‘cause I remember that ‘cause I was laughing. I’m a Sergeant on probation. And they’re saying, why are you here? And I said because I was ordered to be here and I’ve read all this stuff and I understand the importance of it. And they go no offense, but you, you have no business being here. We need someone who we is not gonna pick up a phone and make a phone call. We’re looking for that person that can make the phone call saying evacuate the jail. LICKING: SEAGRAVES: Okay. You know so I mean they were asking for somebody that was like a Munnell level to, to really make a call for things. And then after that point, I was kind of just dropped out of the meeting.

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 LICKING: SEAGRAVES: Would that have been kinda mid ‘06? It was brand new when I got there, so I cannot tell you exactly. I just know that I was on probation. Do you remember who ordered you to be there? Um, (pause) I do not. Someone in my chain of command and, specifically, I don’t know if it was, I don’t know. Okay. I could just guess on that. You said you went about five times. How many, how many hours were you gone at a time roughly? I was gone all day long. Okay. And, um, in addition to me, excuse me, being gone all day long the information that I got from Lieutenant Bailey were books and books of how to prepare. I mean it was you know roadways leading out of, I mean it was,… Sure. …I mean it was fascinating but it was.

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 LICKING: SEAGRAVES: Right I’ve done the Palo Verde stuff... Yeah. I mean it was something that I should have never been involved in. I mean it was just (snaps fingers). Okay. Um, besides that what, what were you and your, um, unit tasked with? Well, we were always tasked to do things. You know. And, I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to interrupt. I, I forgot to ask. So what impact would that have had directly on the SVU you being gone? Well, I wasn’t there. I mean I wasn’t there to oversee calls. I wasn’t over there to see if things were going on. I wasn’t over to see if there was issues that were happening, um, search warrants, how do we deal with this? Just anything as a supervisor. I rarely went to lunch outside of the Office. I brought my lunch. Normally, we would all sit together as a squad with the exception of Eric Haarala and we would sit in the big break room and we would talk about our cases. What could we do? Could we do a confrontational call? Would that work? Is this guy too sly? You know should we follow him? Do you think we should get SI involved to do you know put a tail underneath his, um, (unintel 32:10)? I mean we roundtabled things. We talked about how we could get some of the worst of our offenders that were very savvy that had been arrested before, women who were, uh, you know, um, I support my man sorta thing and trying to work with CPS, work with the County Attorney. We had lunches with the County Attorney, Rachel Mitchell. So right, so just channel. I mean it’s obvious you just weren’t there

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 to supervise. SEAGRAVES: I wasn’t there to supervise. I wasn’t there to, to know what was happening. Right. And I had to divert my attention because the stuff that I was dealing with was way over my head as far as, um, a supervisory. You know I mean it was just very complex. Um, is and I know a lot of this is just off the top of your head. What else, what other kinda details were you guys being pulled for? Well, you know I, I, I’m guessing because I’m sitting here telling you something that happened in 2006. I, I don’t wanna mislead. I, I’m just trying to go from memory. We were always tasked with the fact that, um, Roy Rojas spoke Spanish and so he was used a lot. Um, he was called to assist for the, uh, HSU, the Human Smuggling. Um, you know Mary was very well liked. How, how long would Roy be gone at a, at a time? It depends on, on different things. There was one time and I’m going from memory. It had to do with, um, a horse, a horse detail like, um, Hispanics would gather in the middle of the desert and it would always be somewhere different. And they would do horse racing. And Roy looks like he could if you’ve seen Roy, he totally could fit in with that group. I mean he can morph into you know a bad ass Cowboy kinda guy or Mexican guy and I don’t think anyone would question him. He’s older. He’s got the dress.

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 He’s got the lingo. So he was used a lot because he was in SI for a lot of years and he was used that way. Um, we were called to do Academy stuff. To do, uh, help out with the Detention Academies, Sworn Academies that were going on during that time frame, acting. And you know there was a lot of pressure that was put on. LICKING: SEAGRAVES: Was, was that mandatory that you all participate in that? Well, technically, no but we did it under duress because of Hank Brandimarte, just like when we gave up Honduras. Um, I had a conversation with Mike Brooks saying I don’t wanna do this and I said you don’t have to do this. And he goes, I have to do this. And I said you don’t. He goes I’m telling you he had a conversation with Brandimarte and Brandimarte let the whole entire squad know in addition to Mike that this is what’s gonna happen. If one of if somebody on this squad doesn’t volunteer, you’re gonna be helping with Jail Crimes and you’re gonna be assisting in search warrants with Homicide. We’re drowning already. To throw that on us was even more you know we didn’t have a choice. Yeah, I remember that email, uh huh. And Mike, and Mike just he volunteered because he felt like he was gonna take one for the team and he was gonna do it. But he did not wanna go. And his wife didn’t want him to go. But I told him that I would make an effort and talk to the Captain and, um, you know but he ended (unintel 35:22). And that that happened. I mean they were physically gone in

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 October of ’07. Is that right? SEAGRAVES: LICKING: SEAGRAVES: I don’t remember. Okay. But I do remember that the whole month before that I had to, uh, not give him any more cases. And that came as an order from Brandimarte, not give him any more cases. And then, um, unbeknownst to me I guess there was a whole bunch of material that had to be translated from English to Spanish for all of the areas that they were gonna be teaching, say if it were like with Forrest Wright, which was you know, um, automobile stuff. Roy had to be part of that, too. So in addition to not, I had to give up Roy for like a good month or so while he translated from all the English to Spanish and they put them in binders and sent them to Quick Copy and all that kinda stuff. So I, I, I’m down two. And then so the current cases that they have I’ve got to disburse among the three that I have left and you know Felbab is very slow. Um, he’s very you know methodical but he almost over thinks things so you know basically I had three people left that in addition to our call outs we still had. I still had to deal with the call outs and you know, um, the unique things that came about. Uh, one of them was early on and I believe it was in 2006. LICKING: SEAGRAVES: LICKING: I don’t mean to interrupt. Um hum. Um, you mentioned that Mike Brooks, he, he was gone for at least a month but the, the month prior he wasn’t supposed to get any cases.

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Um hum. Was he still actively working his cases or what was he doin’ that month prior to? Um, well, I think he was finishing up the absolute ones that he we were so close but we needed to get those done. But the rest of them that still had pending, were pending were disbursed among the three, Mary, Jim. Was, was he being utilized for Honduras prep stuff for prep at that time?

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Yes, he was. Oh, okay. Specifically, what, I don’t know. Okay. So he was pretty much not available except for the most significant sex crimes cases? No, we didn’t use him for call outs either. Okay. So he pretty much just the cases that that were so close and only he could do, supplements that he already conducted, any, um, arrests that he could make that were you know on, on the fringe of that before he was told to do that. But other than that the rest of the stuff that still had pending

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 interviews that were not you know close enough to an arrest that he couldn’t do it himself I had to give away. LICKING: SEAGRAVES: LICKING: SEAGRAVES: LICKING: THOMPSON: Yes. Okay. So on the Academy, how, how often did you have to do that help out with the Academy? Um, that was, there was Academies goin’ on and it was, um, we had to, we were asked to, this is what we never did. We were asked to participate in, uh, wet alcohol labs for the HGN folks and the phlebotomy folks and we just didn’t do that. Um, but Brandimarte did say we had to do, um, the, uh, play acting… Right. …for the Academy’s. And that was depends on what they did, so maybe I don’t know. I don’t know, I’d just be guessing but we were told we had to do that. How many people would typically give up, uh, a time for that? Okay. And he participated. And that went to other SVU Detectives then?

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 SEAGRAVES: LICKING: SEAGRAVES: Three. Okay. And how long would they? Usually, it was Mary, Jim and it could be all day. You could be all day (pause) because they were doing you know, um, different scenarios and they were going between, uh, different areas and whatever the Academy is asking them to do. I never participated. Even though I’m assigned to the Academy now, I still haven’t seen it because we don’t, I just, I’m not involved in that. Right, okay. Um, one of the other ones that got mentioned was the Cactus Towing case. Um hum. And that Mary Ward, apparently, had been pulled for that. Um, do you remember that? I do. Do you remember how long and was she the only one pulled for that or? Um, (sigh) (pause). I, I seem to recall from, from other things that I’ve read. Yeah.

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 LICKING: SEAGRAVES: It seemed like she was the only one but I didn’t know. You know (pause) I thought there was some and I (pause). I don’t remember who. But if there was another one, it was very, very, very, very brief. Okay. And I’m not sure if it was Roy because of his Spanish speaking but I’m, but I’m not 100 percent sure. Okay. Do you know how, how long she was asked to participate in that? SEAGRAVES: LICKING: I do not. I mean were we talkin’ like days or weeks or a month or do you remember? I don’t remember. Okay. Was she, do you know if she was utilized specifically for that? I mean like was she just sayin’ hey, look she’s gonna be TDY to this or? I don’t remember anybody sayin’ that to me. Alright. Um, are there any other? I guess another one that came up was the Sandra Dowling case. Do you remember anybody being pulled specifically for that?

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Well, at the time the Sandra Dowling case was going on I was, I was part of the corruption unit here. So I don’t know what Mary was pulled for. Um. And that’s fine. I just wondered if. Yeah, I don’t, I don’t remember. Okay. So that would have been like, uh, um, and what about Phil Gordon? Was that during that same time while you were here? Um, I. Obviously, the things that we wanna focus on are when you were in?

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Yeah, yeah, I know. And I do remember Phil Gordon. (Pause) I remember details about it but I don’t remember when. You don’t remember if you were in SVU at the time or? I don’t remember that. Okay, alright. But I do remember the case. Okay. Um, and again I, I, I understand it’s been years so, uh, I just appreciate everything you can remember about those things. Um, when we

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 talk about those particular, um, details that everybody was getting pulled from the SVU to help out with and what not, um, in one of the emails that you had given me, um, you had asked if Rojas could be utilized for SI detail and for the transcript, this particular one, um, uh, you had sent to, uh, Hank Brandimarte… SEAGRAVES: LICKING: Um hum. …on, uh, November the 26th of ’07. And basically this kinda talks about a detail that the dates on this particular SI detail were still kind of vague. Um hum. It was still kinda up in the air. It was still in the planning stages. They were talkin’ about like late November, early December that he would be used for this… Um hum. …and what not. And the question you know that we would have at this time is if the SVU was short for bodies, um, you know really our question is why, why weren’t you fighting to keep the people that the few people that you had there… Um hum. …instead of giving them up for? No, I agree. And, uh, this, this was decided or talked about before I even

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 got there. And so you know I was asking Roy like what is this about? And he said that he had already. LICKING: SEAGRAVES: LICKING: SEAGRAVES: LICKING: Well, if you look at the dates I mean like of ’07. Um hum. I mean you would have been there for… Right, I was there. …in SVU for quite a while. Um, and again, I know this is without showing you this ahead of time… Um hum. …it’s you know it’s been years so. Yeah. Um, and on that particular, um, email and that, and that change is for the sake of the transcript, um, you had mentioned, uh, before that on November the 1st of ’07… Um hum. …that and just in part it says, I was just trying to help out another division much like other divisions for me on occasion. Um hum.

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So that just leaves us to believe that, um, if you guys were short handed in the SVU,… Um hum. …other divisions would help pitch in occasionally on cases and would that be correct? No. I just meant sometimes like, uh, what came to mind on that was, uh, Gerry Edgar before she came in she, uh, took pictures and she did some other things that she went above and beyond that she didn’t have to do ‘cause it was District VII. I was just thinking you know the folks that have gone above and beyond to do things for us that we didn’t have to do. It wasn’t anything like I got some folks assigned to me to help out if that’s what you’re referring to. Okay, perfect. Yeah. And that’s that’s what I really we needed to find out. No, and it was just, it was, it was bridging to help another you know it was his call. Right. You know that’s why I was running it by him. I was unaware that Roy had initially spoke to Gentry about this. It kinda just went Gentry to Roy Rojas

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 because, I guess, they’ve worked together before and this is something that they did and I was unaware of it. LICKING: SEAGRAVES: Okay. But I ran it by, um, I don’t like giving other people but I also know that if I need help in another division, I don’t have a problem with bridging for the future just to say… Sure. …would you mind helping me out with something? But, um. Well, and you know we’re, we should all be working together anyway. We should be and, and trust me if, uh, I, I know where you’re goin’ with this. If I was so begging for people, why would I give up one? You know, um, this was a voluntary thing. It wasn’t something we had to do under duress. Whether or not it even panned out, I don’t even know. I don’t even know the outcome. Okay. But I ran it by him first and made and gave the Lieutenant the call on that. Okay. Because it came from another Sergeant.

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 LICKING: Um, and I guess the other question that that gets raised. Um, Hank ends up responding to this, um, or at least one point writes on October the 30th of ’07. It’s still part of the same… Um hum. …email chain. Um, basically, he says in a nutshell hey, I’m just hearing about this. I’m being kept you know I’m, I feel like I’m being kept out of the loop. Um hum. This is what I mean when I say I get frustrated. And, um, so it just led us to, to believe that Hank at least on a couple of occasions, according to the way he writes this that,… Um hum. …um, maybe you guys were workin’ special details that he didn’t know anything about. Um, was was that… No. …the issue? Absolutely not. Okay. No. Um, as a matter of fact, somewhere you have where I apologize to

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 Hank and he says, wow. LICKING: SEAGRAVES: LICKING: SEAGRAVES: LICKING: Right. In fact, I believe it’s, I believe it’s in this, this same one here. Where he says. Right. Okay, there, okay, you’re right. Right. (Pause) Um, so at that I just wanted to make sure ‘cause that was. He, the way he writes this, it leads us to think that this had happened on more than one occasion. But that’s not the case? No, that is not the case. Okay. Um, this and I talked to Roy about this you know that he put me in a bad situation and if he’s gonna talk to any Sergeant, he needs to run it by, they need to run it by me first. Sure. Don’t commit to something, I don’t care if you’re friends with him, don’t commit to something. I, I had to fall on my sword to, to Hank Brandimarte… Okay.

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 SEAGRAVES: …for this. Um, I don’t like being put in a situation where I’ve gotta do that. I was trying to help out Gentry. Whether or not this ever came about, my communication with Hank in 2007 was pretty well screwed up at that point. Um. Okay. So would it be fair to say that this is just a one time instance for somethin’, I apologize for (unintel 46:46). Yeah, no, I don’t remember any other time that that he thinks that we went behind his back, unless you’ve got something specific. Okay. Um, I don’t even, I wouldn’t even think of this as going behind his back. Sure. This was something that was I just did not mention to him because I had forgotten. Right, right. It wasn’t anything I was trying to, um, circumvent him for him to tell me no or anything like that. Right. So this, I guess, my main question is this, this in any way wasn’t you not keeping your chain of command… A typical.

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 LICKING: SEAGRAVES: LICKING: SEAGRAVES: No. No? I kept, I, I kept Hank pretty much well advised. He, um, and I think that was part of our issues of why we disagree. So oil and water type thing. Sure. He you know he didn’t like me and that’s why I provided those, um, phone texts that I end up forwarding to my phone because he was asking me to do things and then coming back later and saying that’s not what I wanted. I said well, instead of just you know telling me, why don’t you put it in an email? Why don’t you write it down? So and, and frankly, I don’t really give a rip about Hank; I care about me. I was thinking I don’t wanna be in trouble and if you’re giving me a half assed you know, uh, job assignment that the Captain is gonna come down later, Hank’s gonna be able to be the buffer. I don’t get an opportunity to say to the Captain. Captain’s very by the chain of command. He’s not gonna come and go Kim, what happened? You know what happened? You dropped the. It’s not like that. It rolls down hill and he would have been mad at me and then I don’t know if what I’m telling Hank is actually ever getting to the Captain. All the times that I asked him for help, I know that I did. I’m sure if you ask him, he’ll either tell you the truth or he’ll deny it. But the fact of it is what Hank did with the information I gave him, I don’t know. So when Hank as a Lieutenant comes to me and says knock it off or quit writing memos or you know you’re a pain in the ass, I hear from a first line supervisor who majority of the time was on probation is he’s speaking on behalf of the agency. He’s …you know advised of what was going on?

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 already discussed it with our chain of command and the answer is we’re not doing that and quit asking me because you’re a pain in the ass. Says you’re a pain in the ass and even the Captain feels that same way. So don’t, so quit asking. LICKING: SEAGRAVES: LICKING: SEAGRAVES: LICKING: SEAGRAVES: LICKING: Um hum. So those are some of the things. Okay. I think I (unintel 49:06) a little. Oh, that’s alright. I’m sorry. (Chuckle) Um, just for the wrap it up here. Um, (pause) one of the other emails that we had that you provided, um, showed that, um, over time had been reduced. And for the sake of the transcript, this is an email from, uh, Hank Brandimarte basically to well, most everybody. Everybody, um hum. Um, you know the SVU included in it as well. Um, and basically, what it talks about is and the date on this is November the 6th of ’07. Um hum. Um, in that it basically talks about hey, until further notice, all

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 overtime should be kept to a necessary level. Um, it’s being reduced. We have to do our part… SEAGRAVES: LICKING: Um hum. …you know to help out with this. Uh, over time for a call out should be flexed as much as possible. Or sorry for the disruption and so on. Um hum. Um, was reading this it leads at least me to believe that overtime up until at least November the 6th of ’07 was, was approved. Is that correct? On a as, as, as needed basis. Sure. I mean right, it wasn’t approved just rampant you know type thing. SEAGRAVES: LICKING: Yes. But if, if you guys had call outs or you had somethin’ special that happened a search warrant or you know whatever I’m assuming that over time was approved up until then, is that correct? Um, yes. And when I say no overtime, it means obviously there is, we’ve had to, um, kind of do a different way of, uh, having our people come in. Some people coming in late, some people are coming early. We’re trying to do the best that we could for coverage. But you’re absolutely right, there are cases. And one case that comes to mind it was on a Mother’s Day, which was on a Sunday. And, um, it was such a bizarre story, um,

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 involving a little girl and a Phoenix Police Officer, who was the mother of the victim. It, it required almost our entire squad. And it was that I had to call to ask for permission on that. And it kind of like do you need them? And I go I do need them because we need to do a canvas. And we, we’re gonna get Posse but I do need them. So if, if, if it rose to that level, I could do it. But you know I knew better to ask on any other thing. I needed to figure out how I could flex, how I could be creative that sort of thing. LICKING: SEAGRAVES: Sure. But, but this is primarily and it wasn’t a regular you know every day go to work thing. It was related to call outs. Okay. Um, okay, uh, that pretty much answers that. Um, I guess really kind of the one of the last things, um, that memo that you had written before, um, in regards to the problem that the SVU is having with El Mirage at that time. Okay. Um, and obviously, that was a big issue for you all, um, and rightly so. If you guys weren’t gettin’ the cases, you couldn’t respond in a timely manner. Obviously, that was a big issue and you took the time to document that. Um, one of the questions that was raised was, um, if manpower was such an issue, did you, did you take the time to physically document the need for more Detectives or, um, or help or anything like that up, up your chain of command? You mentioned before that you had had conversations with Lieutenant Brandimarte several times, um, saying that you were short handed and, and, and to that effect. Did you ever put pen to paper on that particular issue?

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I’m okay. Um, (pause) well, um, you knew early on that I did write that memo… Right. …to my chain of command when I identified that there was a problem. And the sticky note that came down from my Chief was, um, deal with this in house. It’ll work itself out. But my point on this whole thing it’ll work itself out, how, how will it work itself out? The only way it will work itself out is if a victim calls and says, why are you working my case? There was no way that I could figure out a way, um, to work it out in- internally. Okay, so I thought that was, um, if anybody wants to drop the ball, Freeman dropped the ball on that one. So what I heard is a line level Officer is just okay, he doesn’t care about that. He doesn’t care about that issue, although I identified that there were victims in there. He doesn’t care about that, so that is my feeling. Whether or not he felt that way, this is how I feel. So, and then as I pro- procontinued to have my relationship with, um, Brandimarte I knew that he had told me quit asking for things. Quit asking for it, shut the fuck up quote unquote quit asking for it. You’re a pain in the ass. Captain now knows you’re a pain in the ass. Any more than this what, what do you wanna do? Okay, so I’m in a spot and yes, I know. I verbally told him as my Lieutenant numerous occasions, numerous times we’re drowning. We’re, we’re swamped. I can’t keep up. Um, you know you’re taking people away from me and then you’re making me, making me under duress give somebody up with a threat of if you don’t. He wants to look, don’t get me

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 wrong, he’s, it’s all about Hank. So he wants to look good, so he wants to look good to the Captain. So he’s gonna go in there and said yeah, one of my guys you know ponied up and decided to go. I’m sure he didn’t tell the Captain that he threatened us with working all of Jail Crimes and picking up the, the slack of search warrants on Homicide when we could barely keep up. So I highly doubt that that was how it went. So I told my Lieutenant. That was all I was required to do was tell, notify my chain of command. I wasn’t entitled. I, personally felt that if I would have written a memo that he would written me up for insubordination. I felt that I could not go around him after he said quit asking, quit fucking asking and go to my Captain. I knew that he is not, he’s not approachable that I could do that. And know so because when I gave him that memo about how this whole occurred with the Hank fuck me with incompetence or make it a training issue, um, and he’s like you know what? You need to go through Lieutenant. And I said no, per Policy you are required to listen to me because it’s about this Policy. And Policy says I can go around him. I never would feel that that would have been an in- an appropriate way for me to handle that. I felt like Hank would have been all over me in a heartbeat and I would have been written up for insubordination. So I felt like I, I did my job by telling my chain of command. With what he did with that I don’t know. LICKING: Okay. Alright. Um, one of the last things that I wanted to cover and I know this is a little harder because of the paperwork that got submitted and what not. But it has to do with a, uh, a budget request that was put in for the, uh, ’06, ’07 fiscal year. Um, it was, uh, a request for the Sheriff’s Office to actually create, um, what they, uh, labeled as an abuse unit.

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 SEAGRAVES: LICKING: Right. Um, it was supposed to consist of at least one Detective Sergeant, five Detectives, uh, all the vehicles that were necessary for the unit to use, office equipment, radios, different equipment, things like that. Um, at least according to the budget proposal that got written, um, one of the things that that particular unit was supposed to have basically taken over, um, because of the state protocol, um, was child sex crimes. Um, and looking at the numbers, um, that we’ve got that for all of, especially for the Sex Crimes unit or the, the SVU it, it appeared largely that the child sex crimes happened to be a high number you know as, as opposed to all of the other, uh, numbers of sex crimes and what not. Okay. So, um, at least looking at it from an outside, uh, perspective it, it looks like as if that you know would have drastically helped the SVU out and what not. What was your understanding? And I, and I understand that you submitted, um, at least a copy of something that and it appeared that, uh, Sergeant Calderone had gotten at one point. It looked like it was like a faxed copy or something like that. I took the time to go over to, uh, Finance and talk with Dan Campion and got an actual hard copy of that. He explained the, the, the whole, um, proposal and the fact that that particular unit was actually approved by OMB. It was funded. Um, there was bodies that were, um, uh, what they call an FTE is a full time employee positions that were actually created and funded. Um, they actually funded all the vehicles, equipment, things like that. Um, is it, do you, do you, do you know whether or not an abuse unit was ever created… Um.

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…for the Sheriff’s Office? Can I expound? Um, sure. Okay. Um, the document, um, first of all, I didn’t get it from Calderone. It was in a desk drawer that was left in the Lieutenant’s drawer. When people leave sometimes they leave some stuff behind. So I hate to Calderone, because I don’t think. I, I had nothing to do with him and, nor did I call him. Okay. So, um, I had no idea that there were funding, financial funding. I had an assumption that there was funding. And I remember when, um, when, um, uh, Fred McCann was the Lieutenant. I know that he was involved with, um, Beamish, I think, writing up some, some stuff. And Fred McCann is a very articulate person, so I, I knew that that had happened. And but I didn’t know the outcome, whether or not it was approved or not approved. All I know is that we started getting stuff in. And stuff to me was, um, we got these brand new, um, um, hard laptop tuff books and they were put in my office. And at that point, um, McCann had already left because I had moved into McCann’s office and Felbab had moved into my office. So that’s the reason why I remember that. It was a bigger office. And they started coming all in and I had no idea what they were. Um hum.

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 SEAGRAVES: And then I was asked to go through and get the, um, serial numbers off of them and then, I guess, I would imagine one of the clerks put them in just as part of our inventory and that was the reason why they were asking. So I knew that that happened. (File two) SEAGRAVES: So I knew about the cars when because I ran the, um, the parking garage. And I did that on almost on a daily basis when I was in GID. And I would see all these Crown Vic’s that were, not Crown Vic’s but, um, Dodge Chargers that were up there. And some of the tires were goin’ flat and they had been up there and they had been up there a considerable amount of time. So when I asked about those and I don’t remember who I asked, um, it could have been. I, I wouldn’t imagine asking Whitney, so my assumption would be that I would ask. I don’t mean to interrupt but these are brand new cars? Brand new cars. Okay. And there’s numbers on them you know like you know the numbers are written with chalk on them and stuff. And so I’m thinkin’ wow, where did these, who’s cars are these? Because some of the cars that we were driving were just you know ready to fall apart. And, um, I was told that those were the cars that had been purchased for the new child abuse, uh, squad. So I think there was an excitement that was in the unit like oh, good, this is gonna happen. And then but we and, and I know ‘cause we all talked about it like would you go work here? Would you go? Who would we get? Who

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 could we recruit to work the Sex Crimes and some of the folks didn’t really. Like I remember Mary sayin’, I think I’m, I would like to stick with adults as opposed to children because she had a harder time dealing with little kids. And even though she’s very good at it, she kind of you know we were just all just round table. It was kind of an exciting sort of thing. And that kind of dissipated once we were told to, I was told to give those tuff books that were assigned to the child abuse squad to our current investigators that were involved in sex crimes. And I’m thinkin’ well, why would I do that? Because and well, we’re not gonna, we’re not gonna get this squad. (Sigh) Why? We’re just, people went elsewhere. They went elsewhere. So they were the people that were approved to come here, although I, I never saw that document before until later, so I didn’t know. Well, maybe they only gave us the equipment but they didn’t give us the manpower or the, the full time employees that were assigned to it. So I gave the new computers, I was told to, I didn’t do this on my own. I was told to disburse them and I collected them back and my memory is that they went to, um, the, uh, HSU squad you know the, um, what does that stand for? LICKING: SEAGRAVES: Human Smuggling. Human Smuggling, thank you. They went there so our old ones went there. And then I thought okay, well, what happens if we get a new squad of the child abuse and these were slated for them? How we, how are we gonna justify that? Never got an answer for that. So then in, in light of. And who, who did you ask that to? Uh, Brandimarte.

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Okay. I don’t think he had an answer. It was just like well, I, I don’t really know. It’s just what we were told to do. And the cars one at a time started disappearing and I had no idea where they went. And then thinking back after my interview and, obviously, I sent you an email trying to think of some other things that could assist me that, obviously, I’m, I feel like I’m in serious trouble here. I feel like that you know I could be gettin’ time off. I’m possibly could be facing losing my, my bars and so I’m trying to think of anything to give you that might help me. And so I remembered that and I remember going through stuff. This came about. There was no signatures on it, who it went to the chain of command. Um, as I wrote to you, I highly doubt that it just went from the author, which I assumed was McCann because McCann was such a good person at writing. That it went to McCann. I, never once in my mind would I think it would just go to McCann to Finance to be approved. My thought was I would provide that document to you. I’m not showing it to anybody and it would go up through the chain of command. And then I called about the cars and, apparently, McCann had already called about the cars a week before I had called to find out where they had been disbursed. I had no way of knowing whether or not the funding was done, so I started to go online and I found out that there was funding. That we had been approved. And that had we been approved, and I’m just rough estimating in my mind, you would know better than I would by looking at you know going through all of the 261’s and 262’s involving children to have an accurate. But in my memory it would have been 50 percent of my case load that would have been taken off of the current investigators on to a new set of investigators. And although 65 cases or 50 cases are

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 unmanageable in any place that you are at, I figure 25 is better than 50 is better than 60. Fifteen (15) would be great but we have to do with what we can you know do the very best that we can do. LICKING: SEAGRAVES: LICKING: SEAGRAVES: LICKING: Sure. You know. Perfect, okay. Did an- did it answer your question? Sure, absolutely, thank you. Um, I don’t have anything else right now. Do you have anything? No, I don’t. Okay, um, we’ve been here right at an hour. Why don’t we just take a quick break? Okay. Um, need any more water? I’m good. I’ll just step out. Alright, alright. Time out is, uh, right at 10:00. (Long pause)

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 (Faint voices in background) LICKING: Oh, okay, time back in is about, uh, 10:10. Uh, for the sake of the transcript, while we were out did anybody talk to you about the case? No. Okay. Um, alright, pretty much the last, uh, question that I have for you is are you aware, uh, of any of the Command staff, um, at least at that time, uh, Chief Hendershott, uh, Chief Knight, Chief Freeman, Captain Whitney, uh, or anyone else, uh, that was in that SVU chain of command, are you aware of any of those people having any specific knowledge of SVU personnel shortages? (Pause) Um, (pause) you mean is your question like did they specifically come to me and? Right. Did, did you ever have a chance to speak with any of them directly? Um, did, are you aware of Lieutenant Brandimarte or Captain Whitney ever sending anything out to Command staff? We mentioned before are you aware of any of them ever coming to like say Captain Whitney or Lieutenant Brandimarte and asking them if their staffing levels were appropriate for the number of cases that they had, any, anything like that? Um, I would have to say other than me relaying that to my chain of command, which would have been specifically to Hank Brandimarte, I never went beyond Hank Brandimarte to let them know. But, um, the fact that the cars came in and, uh, and you know the funding was available I, I, if this may be so but you know this is my opinion, I feel when the vehicles

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 were coming in and the equipment’s coming in and the funding is coming in. I think it would be a reasonable assumption to assume that all within the chain of command would be aware of it. I mean I, I find it hard to believe that Chief Freeman or Bill Knight would, would go oh, we’re getting these cars and not know anything about it. Um, that would be an assumption on my part. But, specifically, did anybody ever come to me? Um, you know there, we, there may have been times casually that you know how you doin’? And we’re swamped. But it’s not specifically let’s talk about this, Kim. I mean it never was anything. LICKING: SEAGRAVES: Sure. But just the fact that you know, um, the OMB request was written. It was, um, my assumption it would be signed because I’ve never known anything in my 18 years that went directly from a Lieutenant directly to, um, Barkell or Hendershott. But not to say that it didn’t happen, I don’t, I don’t know that. But my assumption would be that they would be aware as the chain of command and, specifically, as things got dispersed, um, the cars, the money and the fact that we were told that we were getting these people and then not told that we’re getting them. Somebody beyond me, beyond Hank Brandimarte and I would even assume beyond the Captain would have made those decisions. Okay. Um, and I don’t wanna put any words in your mouth but you did mention that the paperwork that was submitted through OMB and what not, so at least to your knowledge, at least everyone that would have been involved in that the chain of command for that budget request for the abuse squad, is that what you’re sayin’ should have been aware? The chain, should have been aware.

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Okay. One, one would assume. Right. But I don’t have any specific knowledge of that. Okay. I don’t have any signatures. I mean I would imagine that you as an investigator would be able to get those signatures. I mean I know that we got the cars and I know that, um, it’s public information when you look up the Board of Supervisors and our guys, um, you know just Google cars, Google whatever and it, it is there so. Sure, okay, perfect. Um, I don’t have anything else. Do you have anything? No. Okay. Um, you’re entitled to five minutes, um, just like last time. Obviously, it’s not like a question and answer time…. Right. …but you’re entitled to, uh, make any clarification statements, uh, anything you want within those five minutes.

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 SEAGRAVES: Okay. You had asked me a question, um, before break in reference of and I, I don’t think I really answered it specifically, whether or not while I was there if we ever got any additional manpower. Um, we did not. I never saw a unit come about, the child crimes unit come about. And had that happened, I think that, um, this is just a rough estimation. Um, you could know by looking at all the, the case, uh, case tracking, uh, through RMS or CAD to know exactly specifically how many cases involved, um, individuals under the age of 18, how that would have affected the unit. There is no question that would have affected the unit and, um, I sent you some documents throughout the course of our last conversation and you know I didn’t become a principal in this until April of this year. Um, I, I wish that would have been talked to about this in 2008. I may have had more information. Um, I turned over blindly all of my stuff to Brandon Luth when I was told that this was a fact finding mission about what was going on, um, early on. And I know that, uh, I had a concern about what was written in the Babeu report, um, only what was publicly. I don’t, I don’t have any access to anything other than what is on the, um, in the newspaper. And I know that during the interview with Michael Manning, um, specific things came up about that and I just wanna make it perfectly clear for the IA record that when this all came about and, um, this investigation started to roll, um, it is like a layered onion. I mean it’s, the core of it was Hank Brandimarte making inappropriate comments. And I would hate to think that anybody on the 19th floor or any- anybody in this Office thinks that I knew I was being called on the carpet for something and that I said time out, I’m gonna do this sex abuse or this, um, harassment case on you, Hank Brandimarte. I think the only surprise that should come from the Office is why this hasn’t been done sooner. Why somebody hasn’t come forward on Hank Brandimarte sooner. So that kind of stands on it’s own. I welcome the Investigator: Sgt. B. Licking S1122/Sgt. D. Thompson A6183 Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #0982 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: June 13, 2011/1230 hours Page 54 of 57

MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 investigation, although I, I don’t welcome it you know happily, but I know it’s something that has to be done. I, I get that. But for them to mesh it together the way my feeling was when I read the Babeu investigation that there are people on the 19th floor that clearly think that this was a roos of some sort. And to think it was a roos of some sort that it was investigated full and separately, which resulted in Hank Brandimarte getting 40 hours of, of time off as a result of his inappropriate behavior should not fall on me. I mean should, should not follow me. And shame on anyone who thinks that this had anything as a part of it. It only was a part of it because he said he was gonna fuck me with incompetence or make it a training issue. And when all of this resulted as him ordering the code red, so to speak, telling me to close cases so he looks better. And then the fact that you know nothing was redacted from the Babeu report in reference to me, although it was to Fox, it was not to me and resulted in news media going after me saying that I intentionally closed cases for the sole purpose of to lessen my case load, which would be contrary to everything that I was trying to get, which is more people and more manpower. And I, my feeling is that I feel no matter what I provide, I am like using my fingers to hold, hold water from coming out. And the more I provide, it’s like well, and here’s another thing and here’s another thing, which makes me feel that the Office is trying to separate itself from any liability about this. The fact that we received all this funding, over half a million dollar of funding, full staffing and, um, additional, uh, $200,000 to, uh, just have you know for incidentals. I think to blame me for any of it or for me to acknowledge any Policy violations that I did initially that were mi- miniscule really so to speak, um, it’s like giving me a big gulp cup and telling me at the day to go empty Lake Pleasant. And I worked my ass off to do as I did and when I was working in Sex Crimes and at the end of the day you come back and you say, but clearly you’re in violation of Investigator: Sgt. B. Licking S1122/Sgt. D. Thompson A6183 Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #0982 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: June 13, 2011/1230 hours Page 55 of 57

MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 insubordination. Take in consideration the totality of all this. It was a no win situation from the very get go. I didn’t break it. It was that way before hand and I know that a reasonable person not sitting, I’m not saying you’re not reasonable, but I’m saying should it go to an appeal if I receive major discipline, which, which I, which I will you know appeal it is the fact that the Sheriff’s Office knew. That they knew that there was an issue and whether they choose to acknowledge it, in my opinion, a reasonable person is gonna look at it and, and, and say first of all, 2006. Why, if you were trying to give her discipline or, or make it more relevant to improve her performance, then certainly why didn’t you do it earlier on you know? And I don’t know if the Office was surprised by that 2006 that it took them off guard, maybe they remembered it, maybe they didn’t. I, I don’t know. But I think it’s very unfair. I think it’s unfair. I feel like I’m a scape goat in this. And I, personally think I was, um, made to look like an absolute idiot two years out before I retire, which it’s gonna totally affect anything I wanna do by my retirement by having Incompetency laid upon me, Dereliction of Duty and then I’m just you know just not taking care of business, which is not what I’m about. You can ask anybody that you know that works with me. And this is, this is just not me. And I feel I’m, personally being attacked, personally. And the reason I feel that way is because no where in this agency did they come out and you know provide information that would have softened the blow. And frankly, had the Pinal interview had not had people’s opinion from the 19th floor to include Bruce Tucker, I wouldn’t have been drug through the mud like that. People waiting outside my house until this day, people calling me, lawyers wanting to represent me. People wanting to interview me and just calling on my personal phone I feel like is unnecessary. And I am very disappointed in our agency. I’ve been very loyal for 18 years and it, it just, it saddens me and breaks my heart. And I’m gonna do whatever I can to make the Investigator: Sgt. B. Licking S1122/Sgt. D. Thompson A6183 Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #0982 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: June 13, 2011/1230 hours Page 56 of 57

MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 outcome I, I, it’s, it’s not me. This, this isn’t, this is not on me. And to distance themselves, shame on them. LICKING: Okay. Okay, uh, that concludes the interview and it is about 10:22. Alright. Thank you. You bet.

SEAGRAVES: LICKING:

Investigator: Sgt. B. Licking S1122/Sgt. D. Thompson A6183 Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #0982 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: June 13, 2011/1230 hours Page 57 of 57

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