MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 Interview with Sergeant Lugo, S1480 March 9, 2011

LICKING:

Alright, uh, recorder’s goin’. Time in is about, uh, 12:10. And for the sake of the recording, I’m Sergeant Brad Licking, serial number 1122, and I’ve got Sergeant Cory Morrison, 1509…

MORRISON: Yep. LICKING: LUGO: LICKING: …and Greg, can you state your name and your serial number for us. Uh, Greg Lugo, uh, serial number 1-4-8-0. Okay, great. Uh, for the purpose of the recording this is for, uh, Internal Affairs investigation 08-0080. Uh, the date is 3-9 of ’11. Um, Greg, before we got started I went ahead and brought in a Notice of Investigation and the Garrity Warning paperwork here. I noticed it’s got some signatures. Are those are your signatures on that? Yes, they are. Okay. Did you happen to have any questions about either of those forms? No. Okay. Um, and to be fair to you just, just so you understand and we kinda talked about it briefly we started but, um, yeah, I understand this has been several years ago. The information that you’re gonna be bringing up, um, you know you may, you may recall stuff right away. You know you may have to refer. I noticed you brought some folders and you may have refer to that, um, and we understand that.

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Investigator: Sgt. B.Licking, #S1122, Sgt. C.Morrison, S1509 Reviewer: Capt. K.Holmes,S#982 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: March 9, 2011/1500 hours Page 1 of 57

MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 Um, you know it’s one of those things that you know it’d be hard for me to remember if something happened at least a year ago type thing. So, um, and before we kinda get into that you and I have never worked together. Um, how long have you worked for the Sheriff’s Office? LUGO: LICKING: LUGO: Uh, it’ll be just under ten years. Okay. And what positions have you held since you’ve been with us? Um, as a Deputy Sheriff when I was hired, worked in Court Security or Transportation Division. I forget what they called it at the time. Uh, went out to District I, worked patrol out in District I. Um, then was transferred down to the General Investigations Divisions and worked in the Jail Crimes Unit as a Detective. I was then promoted to Sergeant. I stayed in the Jail Crimes Unit of General Investigations, worked as a Sergeant for some time. And then also took on the supervisor responsibilities on top of the Jail Crimes Unit of the Arson or Fire Investigations Unit as well and then was transferred to the Special Victims Unit, where I was the Sergeant supervisor there. From there I was transferred to the Organizational Development Bureau or Division, um, where I worked for I wanna say about a year, uh, doing various duties and was then transferred to Enforcement Support Division for approximately a month give or take. And then was transferred back out to District I, Patrol Division, where I’ve worked there on two different squads since, uh, that time. LICKING: LUGO: Okay, and that’s where you’re currently assigned? That’s where I’m currently assigned.

Investigator: Sgt. B.Licking, #S1122, Sgt. C.Morrison, S1509 Reviewer: Capt. K.Holmes,S#982 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: March 9, 2011/1500 hours Page 2 of 57

MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 LICKING: Okay, alright. Um, like I said, I notice you brought some stuff in. I don’t know if you wanna grab that but, uh, basically what I’m gonna go ahead, go ahead and just ask. Um, when you transferred, when you were in GID and you transferred over to the SVU, who’s position did you replace over there? It was Sergeant, at the time, Sergeant, uh, Kim Seagraves. Okay. And do you, do you recall about the timeframe that happened? I wanna say it was beginning of ’08, 2008 sometime January, February, March-ish, … Okay. …somewhere in there. Um, at that time, uh, just from having gone over some of the older, uh, files and what not, it’s my understanding at least by the beginning of ’08, uh, really near the end of ’07 is when the transition a- away from the city of El Mirage occurred. Is that, is that correct? Um, I believe. I was, of course, over in the Jail Crimes side at the time of the transition. I wanna say it was late ’07, beginning of ’08, somewhere in there. I don’t remember. I know it was a transition that went on for several weeks back and forth but, uh, we had actually cases when I was in the Fire Investigations Unit that we had to transfer back over to them. Okay. So I, I don’t have a specific date but probably the end of ’07 would, would give a

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Investigator: Sgt. B.Licking, #S1122, Sgt. C.Morrison, S1509 Reviewer: Capt. K.Holmes,S#982 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: March 9, 2011/1500 hours Page 3 of 57

MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 ball park. LICKING: Okay. Do you recall when you took over, uh, as the supervisor of the SVU do you remember having any cases that were assigned to the City of El Mirage that you guys were responsible for or does, does that a ring bell or? Well, (chuckle) there were, um, the way I understood it was there were cases that were backed over to El Mirage from the Special Victims Unit. I believe and this is what sort of started the whole ball rolling was that we were, at least I coming in as a supervisor, was not aware completely and the Detectives were not aware completely of exactly what cases they even had. Okay. Um, as in a standard case log or something of that nature. So could I say with certainty that they did not have El Mirage cases or cases that occurred in the town of El Mirage or city of El Mirage? I can’t say that when I first got in there o- of any certainty. Um, I believe there were some cases just going off memory that they were doing some follow up, what not, um, or at the end on the back end of cases that either had something to do with El Mirage or, um, occurred in the town limits. LICKING: Okay. Um, but to kinda clarify in my own mind, at least to your the best you can recall, you weren’t assigned any brand new cases from the time you took over as, as the new supervisor that originated out of the city of El Mirage? Correct, that is correct, yes. So there might be a possibility that the guys were still doin’ follow up on some

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Investigator: Sgt. B.Licking, #S1122, Sgt. C.Morrison, S1509 Reviewer: Capt. K.Holmes,S#982 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: March 9, 2011/1500 hours Page 4 of 57

MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 older cases,… LUGO: LICKING: Yeah. …but from the time you took over you guys didn’t acquire any new ones from El Mirage? That would be correct. Okay. We requi- we did not acquire any new cases from El Mirage… Okay. …from the time I took over onward. Do you remember, uh, from the time you took over, uh, who the Detectives were that were workin’ for you there in SVU? Um, when I first took over (pause) the Detectives were, uh, Jon Felbab, uh, Gerry Edgar, um, who had just come in there probably a month or two before me or maybe even a couple weeks, uh, Detective, uh, Jim Wee, Detective Mary Ward and Detective, uh, Roy Rojas. That would be five, I believe? Um hum. One, two, three, four, five. Um.

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080

LUGO:

There were also two Detectives in the Sex, uh, Crimes Notification who I also then supervised as well. Okay, do you remember who that was? Uh, Shannon Reed… Okay. …and Shari Decker. But their, their primary goal was the Sex Crimes Notification? Correct. They didn’t necessarily work the, the other cases and? They, they a- they were, uh, assist mode, uh, for other cases,... Okay. …callouts, etcetera. But I do not believe they had any… Okay. …routine cases from this side of the, of the Unit. Do you recall, um, Eric Harrala workin’ for you?

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Investigator: Sgt. B.Licking, #S1122, Sgt. C.Morrison, S1509 Reviewer: Capt. K.Holmes,S#982 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: March 9, 2011/1500 hours Page 6 of 57

MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 LUGO: LICKING: LUGO: I do. Uh, was was that at the same time, too or was it later or? He worked for me in, um, Jail Crimes and I wanna say that Detective Edgar replaced him from Jail Crimes and Harrala. They sw- they swapped. Okay. So then Harrala would have, uh, actually worked for me in Jail Crimes for I wanna say anywhere from a week to a couple months right before I then went over to Sex Crimes. Okay. So Harrala did not work for me at that time for, uh, as a supervisor, uh, of Sex Crimes. Gotcha, okay. Now he did come back for a short duration like a TDY period. Okay. Back and I think I could find the approximate date for a week or so to help clear up some stuff. Would that be part of the power squad or? No, he came back sort of as a thing, uh, once he got transferred out to District

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Investigator: Sgt. B.Licking, #S1122, Sgt. C.Morrison, S1509 Reviewer: Capt. K.Holmes,S#982 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: March 9, 2011/1500 hours Page 7 of 57

MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 VII, I believe it was. He came back once we had some still some more questions or he had some more property to address. It was, I wanna say, a week to maymaybe a couple days to a week that he came back and so he then he worked under me, if you wanna say for, for that time… LICKING: LUGO: Sure. …just to, to clear up some questionable, some questions that nobody down there had, had answers to. Okay. Um, instead of us asking a lot of questions, ‘cause that would you know there’s just so much to this case to begin with. What I was hoping you might be able to do is from the time you went over to the Special Victims Unit, um, it was my understanding that at least sometime early on, um, you were able to work with Lieutenant Kevin Riddle and perform, um, at least what’s titled in another volume is the SUV Audit. Um, and we’ll, obviously, have some more questions as we go but right now I’d just kinda like to open up the floor just to let you explain what your understanding of what that audit was and what your role was, uh, you with, uh, Lieutenant Riddle and what were some of the things that you, you, you saw as issues some, some problems that you had. Um, who you were able to at least say you know should have been responsible for those types of, um, issues. Um, and then what in your opinion may have been done to correct those issues. And I know that’s a, that’s a, a ton of information and what not. So if you can as it kinda comes back to your recollection if you can just kinda tell me from the beginning, um, with the audit what were, what were you responsible for? Okay. Let me find (pause). And don’t feel bad if you gotta keep jumpin’ from on your while you’re. Uh, we understand it’s a lotta stuff.

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080

LUGO:

It’s, it’s going to happen, okay? So this I think is first. This one. (Pause) And that is this. (Pause) Okay, I think this is mine. (Pause) This one actually needs to. Well, I was assigned to the Special Victims U- Unit like we said, uh, the beginning of ‘08. Um, I don’t recall an exact date, um, when that was. But I wanna say it was January, February, March-ish, somewhere in there. And, um, coming in to the, to the unit, um, at the, at the immediate time well, my supervisor was Lieutenant Schoeninger, um, the male Schoeninger. I forget what his first, Jim Schoeninger. (Phone sounds) Um, he was my Lieutenant for a very short period of time when I first came into the unit. And during that time I’m trying to, of course, be bring myself up to speed with all the training, Policies, procedures, practices of working these types of cases, which is a little bit unique, um, compared to Jail Crimes cases or District Detective type cases when you deal with sex crimes and especially children. So during the course of a couple different months, um, questions started to arise, uh, from perspective of, uh, not having a clear cut, uh, understanding of which cases each Detective had, who was working what cases, um, and uh, where the cases were going or have a good grasp of what was actually taking place, what type of performance was being done. During the course of subsequent months, um, I started to, uh, receive I called them, uh, dis- discover reports, so to speak. Um, whether they called in as complaints, um, people want calling in wondering about their case, uh, things such of that nature and that started to raise some red flags with me. What I started to do because it, it I started to assume that possibly, uh, the issue was bigger than just a single case after I received several phone calls, uh, from regarding different cases and different Detectives. Um, and when I looked at the case, looked at the case there were questions that rose up from a supervisor standpoint.

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080

I started to document those in what I called was a discovery report. Um, as you can see this is one here. It sort of gives a breakdown of the various cases. Um, I’ll go through one an, an, an example. Um, this was the end of April of ’08 I received a phone call, uh, from a subject inquiring the status of his case. Uh, we located a case number, um, and he went on to, um, basically say that, uh, nothing has happened to the suspect in the case, um, and uh, he was requesting a copy of the report. And he was, of course, upset that nothing happened with respect to the case that involved, um, I believe, uh, his daughter at the time. Um, upon review of the case and like I said, this is just one example. Um, it involved two female children alleging being molested by their mother’s live in boyfriend, um, on in the west valley on Glendale Avenue. Upon checking the, uh, status of the case, um, I, I located one clearance report, um, that made the case looked at as inactive, uh, but also showed that it reassigned it to Detective Edgar, while another clearance sheet that was located that the case said it was pending in 2006. The first clearance report was in 2008 showing inactive. Once I located the case file, um, which was stored in, uh, Detective Edgar’s office at the time who actually took Detective Harrala’s office, um, so it was the same office, um, I, I examined the case further and found that, uh, in, in my opinion, uh, that uh, there mere-, uh, the follow up needed was merely required, uh, the suspect and a possible witness to be contacted and interviewed. In this case the, um, suspect and a possible witness were found to both be deaf or some, some indication of being deaf and there was never what I could see in the case file an attempt to try to interview them or, uh, close out the case pretty much. Um, I reopened the case and assigned it to Detective Edgar and we eventually, uh, went out to the residence, contacted the deaf subject. I had to get actually a, a PO to do an interview with a sign language, certified sign language interpreter and charges were filed with the County Attorney’s Office. Well, we requested the charges with the County Attorney’s Office for ending up being for two counts of Investigator: Sgt. B.Licking, #S1122, Sgt. C.Morrison, S1509 Reviewer: Capt. K.Holmes,S#982 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: March 9, 2011/1500 hours Page 10 of 57

MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 child molest in ’08 when the case occurred in ’04. LICKING: And just for the sake of the transcript, I’m just gonna read this number at the top and tell me if that’s right. It’s, uh, it would be Incident 04-178232? That’s correct. Okay. So go ahead, I’m sorry, did you have? Um, so basically since you became the supervisor of SVU, you started getting these types of, um, complaints from different victims and what not. And after a certain amount of time, you understood that at least, and I don’t wanna put any words in your mouth, but something made you feel as if you know the cases either weren’t being handled properly or they had been cleared inappropriately, is that right? Well, um, based on, on these incidents and it involves yes, calls from victims, complainants. There’s actually one, um, I received a DPS result, uh, a DPS report, um, uh, let’s see a letter we got through the chain of command on, on one. Um, Chief Knight directly asked me out of, out of sort of a surprise to look at another one. Don’t know how he was brought up to speed on that one. That’s telephone contact. And one, I think, was a child help doctor, um, actually called, uh, reference it. And that started, correct to raise red flags to me. Um, originally at the time okay, well, um, maybe there wasn’t a, a belief that they were cleared inappropriately but there was a belief that obviously the service being provided to these to the victims of these crimes there was a, uh, what I felt, uh, just, uh, was not appropriate. They were not being provided with any type of, if Investigator: Sgt. B.Licking, #S1122, Sgt. C.Morrison, S1509 Reviewer: Capt. K.Holmes,S#982 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: March 9, 2011/1500 hours Page 11 of 57

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LUGO:

MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 you wanna call it, service, um, uh, that their case received, the appropriate attention, attention that needed to, to receive. Um, originally I, I did not come to any conclusions only mere speculation on why that would be, whether that was too many cases to work, cases not being appropriately investigated to not being appropriately documented, uh, etcetera. LICKING: LUGO: LICKING: LUGO: LICKING: Okay. And so from then. Can I shut this off? Yeah, absolutely. (Unintel 18:35) vibrating now. Um, so from the time that you started to see that there was you know more than one issue when it had come to past cases what did, what did you do then? Okay, I’m sorry, can you,… Oh, yeah. …can you say that again? Uh, from the time you started to document this, uh, and what not, um, you said Jim Schoeninger at least initially was your supervisor at that time. Did you notify him to? Yes.

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Investigator: Sgt. B.Licking, #S1122, Sgt. C.Morrison, S1509 Reviewer: Capt. K.Holmes,S#982 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: March 9, 2011/1500 hours Page 12 of 57

MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 LICKING: LUGO: Okay. I spoke with, uh, Lieutenant Schoeninger and, like I said, that was only I wanna say for a month or less that he was my supervisor. I remember I recall having an actual conversation with him that says that where I said I, somethin’ just doesn’t feel right, something and I, I don’t know what it really is but it appears this way. I don’t know if that’s actually the case but it appears this way, um, and, uh, I didn’t believe that anything came of that, uh, conversation but I could be wrong. He was then, uh, transferred out and Lieutenant Riddle was transferred in, uh, to be my, uh, Lieutenant or my supervisor. Yeah, basically, that’s, uh, Kevin Riddle, right? That’s correct. Um, from that point, uh, that Lieutenant Riddle became your supervisor what did you all do at that point? Well, um, upon getting all of these and starting to try to grasp a better picture, um, this, uh, for instance, this one was in April; this one was is May. Uh, here was one in June. Um, the issue that came up with, let me find my other notes at a later time. (Pause) Okay, so the issue that came up and was, uh, first of all trying to figure out what cases every Detective had. Um, I explained to Lieutenant Riddle my concerns and I think after he reviewed some of the information, um, and we spoke, uh, that he started to have the same concerns, um, with regard to something doesn’t seem right, something doesn’t feel right. Um, I can’t speak for him, of course. But the first order of business was to generate a case log system for all of the Detectives that were assigned for all of the open cases that they had.

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Investigator: Sgt. B.Licking, #S1122, Sgt. C.Morrison, S1509 Reviewer: Capt. K.Holmes,S#982 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: March 9, 2011/1500 hours Page 13 of 57

MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 LICKING: So at least would it be fair to say up until this point, it didn’t appear that they had, uh, a workable case log system in SVU? Well, by investigate or if you wanna say investigate it but looking into the complaints, um, and reviewing cases as they’re still coming in, as they’re clearing cases, um, RMS which appeared to be used to a certain extent for the Special Victims Unit, um, did not seem to be accurate, uh, picture of what cases or how cases were being cleared for I don’t know what reason. Um, to be it did not appear that there was any standard case log system for the Detectives or that they what they were using. Um hum. And what makes me say that is when you would try to ask about a case, um, it would either they would not necessarily know what your case you’re talking about. They would not have a form or a computer spreadsheet that they could just pop up and go oh, yeah, I got that case assigned to me here. Um, this is what happened. And coming from the Jail Crimes Unit and having just, uh, made sure and we set up and used a little bit different of a system, uh, there, um, there, there, like I said, were red flags that started to pop up. To answer your question, I do not, I did not appear to me that they had, um, any type of standardized case log system. A couple of the Detectives I do recall seeing binders, a binder or so in their office that looked like it was maybe a handwritten log at some point, but um, I could not say with any certainty that they, uh, used them. LICKING: So at least when you took over from Sergeant Seagraves you know you weren’t briefed on well, this is, this is where you can go in the computer to look up all the active cases? Did anybody, I mean did you get that type of a transition briefing?

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080

LUGO:

Um, I know she gave me a little bit of a, a briefing and she gave me, uh, several piles of, of different things ‘cause you get all this other, uh, paperwork and training material. Um, I do not recall, uh, Sergeant Seagraves saying here’s where you can go. Um, could she have said that? Yes, but I don’t think there was any it was a computer, computer, uh, computer version. Um, and I do, try to think, I do recall like I said seeing in the Detectives office, uh, some type of binder and I do recall seeing one in the office that I took over for from, uh, Lieutenant Seagraves. Um hum. I don’t know. I think that that binder was subsequently turned over to Lieutenant Tucker but I don’t know what happened to it, uh, or what actual information was on there. I remember there being a form with lines filled out, handwritten. And but I did not find any spot where there was a (pause) what’s the, the term would be a consistent pattern of, um,… Case tracking? …correct. Um, so you and Lieutenant Riddle decided to go ahead and at least try to put together some type of case tracking for your guys? Yes. The first order of business was to try to, um, understand what cases they had and create a system of a paperwork flow that, um, where and how cases would be, uh, how they would start--they’d come into the unit; how they would get assigned and how the documentation would go everywhere it needs to go and the review process. Uh, there was nothing, of course, written in paper like that. Um, we generated that—myself, uh, with the assistance of Lieutenant Riddle—and we also

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 worked on initially trying to find all open cases that they actively were working and get an idea of, of what they had, uh, Detective wise, how many case were assigned to the unit, um, and such. And I wanna say another thing that brought that up was the MFR stats was the idea that. LICKING: LUGO: And for the sake of the transcript that’s the Managing for Results? Correct, the monthly stats that Detectives would fill out, which was I don’t think I have a form in any of this here today, but it was pretty much the standard form. They show how many new cases assigned, how many they cleared each way and what their ending case load was. So there were issues of going well, wait a minute, how do we get to that number and where’s the stuff that backs up those numbers, um, to show how many cases they had? Okay. Um, from that point, um, when you started working with Kevin Riddle on that where did, where did you all go from there? Well, uh, as I, uh, have noted here in my well, at the time a working, uh, sort of log so to speak, um, as of June 1st, 20- 2008, um, we, uh, well, not to get off topic, but another issue was we could not locate a, a, any type of division file, uh, located at, uh, for Sex Crimes cases. So the Division, themselves had a copy of each case that came in? Well, or each case that was already cleared. There was no centralized division file. What, uh, I locate- I determined and with the Detectives feedback gave feed me was each Detective sort of just kept their own file cabinets of cases that were cleared, closed, whatever and they were in their offices or some other location somewhere in their office. Um, so there wasn’t a centralized division file, which raised a red flag as well, um, coming from Jail Crimes and Fire Investigations

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 where that’s what we created so once a case was closed or cleared it went in there so anybody trying to, in addition to going to Records, but anybody at the Division trying to go hey, what? They could go right to one location, pull out a DR, um, and go from there. So the first order of business was creating a Division file and from June 1st, 2008, um, we’ve created that Division file and located it actually in, uh, my office at the time. And any case that we worked or that was cleared after June 1st, 2008 was then filed in there as a Division file copy. Um, and at the same time simultaneously I requested from all of the Detectives, um, to confirm a list of cases that they were actively or assigned they were, they were working. Now I wanna say it was, it was between June and July. I wanna say there’s a, there’s a date either at the end of June or the beginning of July that from that point on, um, I got an accurate list from all of the Detectives and I was able to bring RMS up to speed on all the new cases on what they were assigned. And I, myself, created a spreadsheet, um, that had a basically an entire case log for all of Sex Crimes. Um, I started off the spreadsheet. I can see if I had a copy of it to show you. LICKING: And I’m assuming that that would show not, not only the cases assigned but which Detective a case has been has assigned to? Correct. I started off the, the (sigh) I wanna say I, uh, had the idea in, in mind,… (Unintel 29:36) …uh, when I started it off that it was going to be a temporary thing till we figured out a, a better idea, um, and so I had it all on one spreadsheet every Detective. It was a little bit small but I used this during one of the meetings I had with all the

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 Detectives, but it’s pretty much the DR number, the date, the type of crime, location. I created this whole master spreadsheet so, of course, it listed the Detective here. This was then matched with what they had on their records and matched with what RMS had for cases that were actively being worked. This was eventually because it got so long and cumbersome, I actually took each Detective, created a tab at the bottom so you could go on this master form and I could tab on the bottom or I could search the entire workbook, so to speak, uh, electronic workbook for DR number, a name, location, etcetera. And also we had notes and I had all the Detectives give me a note on, uh, what they still needed to do. LICKING: Okay, so the notes would show at least a, a snap shot of where the case was currently? Correct, like, uh, needs to contact victim, uh, awaiting DPS results, something of that nature. And I had a, uh, I required them to have a status, uh, update to me every within every 30 days. So if I didn’t get a supplement or I didn’t get like the case wasn’t submitted to the County Attorney, um, I required them at the end of every month or every 30 day period to at least give me a heads up. Hey, I got these three cases and this is what we’re still waiting on them just to update what, uh, what’s going on. They could do that email, verbally. If they came in and said hey, this is what I got and I would change it, change the date. So this was generated to basically from that point forward to say okay, now we’re going to make sure we have everything that we’re working, everything that we get assigned, everything that gets cleared logged somewhere that’s that’s accurate. And then I worked to have RMS mirror this information so that every case we were getting was entered into RMS. If it was assigned to that Detective, it was assigned in RMS system. LICKING: So if Lieutenant Riddle had a question at that point once this is generated, he

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 could just go right to that. If say if one of the Chief’s called him about a case, he could just go to the computer, pull this up and say at least the latest note on this particular case it’s assigned to this Detective and this needs to be done. Would that, would that be fair? LUGO: In, in a perfect world he could do that. Um, this was not saved on the network drive at the time, so he would not have access to that. Um. But at least if he went to you, you’d be able to pull it up and? Correct. Okay. Correct, I could pull it right up. I got a phone call. Let me look at, I could look it up. I could look it right up and we would have at least an idea and it would have a date that they gave me that last status. Okay. And I wanna say this was, I did this on a, a monthly basis with the stats just like I used to do in Jail Crimes. And I’m, I’m going off my memory here,...

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LICKING: LUGO: …um, was the fact, um, at the end of every month I would give them a list from RMS that shows hey, this is all the cases that you have. Make sure these are the ones you have. You can get new ones that maybe we missed somewhere and give me a little bit of a. Usually they would just even write it on that RMS printout just in the margin and then I would copy it over into this stuff and reset it.

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Now that slowly got replaced by giving them the hard copy every month with once I got, uh, this for each Detective, uh, on a tab I know I believe I would print up their, print up their open cases and give that to them or email it to them or somehow have them look, uh, to make sure. I believe that’s how I did it. I might have still done the RMS from that point forward but. LICKING: Um, and before we go too far, what I was if I could just make kind of a just real quick list. When, when you first got there, um, you mentioned that there didn’t seem to be any case management system that was in place. Um, that would be one of the issues that, uh, so besides the case management, no case management system, if we could just make a quick list of what the kind of the shortcomings that you saw that you knew at that point. Okay. Um, I don’t wanna say absolutely no case management system. Um, I would wanna say, in my opinion, of not a very consistent one, um, or a very, um, (pause) lack of a better term not, uh, standardized. Not in effect? Okay. Um, whereas it was if you tried to find out what was going on a case, you sort of had to sometimes ask around the Detectives, hey, do you remember a case with this lady at this location? And oh, no, I think that was this Detective’s case. So then you had to go find them and go what’s goin’ on? Oh, yes, I have that case and then they may or may not be able to find the documentation but they may not have to if they go yeah, it was all done and cleared and, and this is what happened and they would tell you verbally. Uh, to me that was not a, uh, uh, very efficient or effective manner. Um, in addition I actually reviewed the Policy and procedure that list the Investigator: Sgt. B.Licking, #S1122, Sgt. C.Morrison, S1509 Reviewer: Capt. K.Holmes,S#982 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: March 9, 2011/1500 hours Page 20 of 57

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 responsibilities when this started to, uh, create a, an onset of the responsibilities and duties of a Detective Supervisor and it’s Detective Unit. And one of the things and that’s what made me generate this spreadsheet was it says that the and I’m going off memory, um, of the Policy. It says that, uh, basically the Detective Supervisor is required to have some type of case control or case logging system where they have this information, um, suspect’s name, location, all that kind of stuff. Um, and that’s what made me sort of generate most of these columns on this, um, because some of this stuff is not captured very well or entered very accurately into the R- RMS system that was used intermittently. LICKING: And at least at that point if you got a call from somebody and all they had was either, uh, victim name or only a location, at least you could use that as search criteria for your spreadsheet to try to pull up who’s involved. Correct. The Detective name, yeah, any of that stuff I could them pull up and see what’s going on. I could answer their question. I could see when it was assigned to that Detective, so if it was just assigned today and they’re calling and going well, why hasn’t anybody done anything with this? This also had, of course, a priority level that I would give it, uh, in accordance with the, uh, Policy on case management. Okay. Uh, so that I could go oh, okay, it’s a and I forget ‘cause I haven’t been in a Detective Unit for a while what P3 as opposed to P5 is. Right. But I could say at the time oh, it’s a P. That means okay, that would give the Detective an idea of which ones are higher priority from the standard Policy, which

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 is always just you know can always be adapted, um, the priority level but do have an active, violent defender running around living with a kid that they’re molesting as opposed to something happened six years ago and I’m just reporting it now. It happened when I was a kid and everybody moved and I’m now an adult and I wanna report it LICKING: LUGO: LICKING: LUGO: True. That’s a little bit lower on the,… Sure. …on the scope. So I could then answer a lot of those questions and if you wanna say put out those fires of those complaints and, um, also see which ones were maybe not getting the attention they needed to and try to find what resources we could to, to get those cases worked or get the Detective what they need to get them done. Alright. Um, so if we were to go through this, um, obviously case management not being at least in your opinion consistent or standardized. Uh, no written responsibilities for the assigned Detectives that were there. Um, uh, what else did, did you see as an issue when you, when you first came in there? Um, there was no, tryin’ to think of the term what it’s called now, (pause) Operations Manual. Okay. Um, there was actually an Operations Manual that we located for the Sex Crimes Notification Unit, uh, but there was no standardized Operation Manual. Um, and I

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 even I met and spoke with during the onset of this I went over and spoke. We used to work, I used to work with them a lot in Jail Crimes the Homicide guys, the Homicide Sergeants and check to see how they do business to make sure we weren’t totally off and I wasn’t totally off in left field goin’, uh, trying to make a, a mountain out of something that didn’t need to be worried about or was being handled correctly. And based on the information they provided to me, it only increased my concerns, um, on how they do business and track their cases and, um, have an Operations Manual when you come in there that spells out what everybody’s responsibilities are and spells out the paperwork flow. LICKING: LUGO: Um, no, no manual? No centralized file. I don’t know if that and I don’t know if that, I know it says that they have to be kept. In the Policy it says that they have to the Division has to keep it for so, so much lon- such a length of time, six months or something, maybe a year. I forget what it says. Um, each Division has to keep a copy of their, basically, their Division files for the cases for the past time. So I’m, I’m sorry, go ahead. That’s okay. And we won’t go into like what the fixes are at this point, but um, so besides no centralized Division file, um, was there anything else that, uh, you or Lieutenant Riddle had noticed was? Well, upon looking at those then, um, and these complaints then we started to also see that maybe the improper, um, clearance type was utilized or sometimes entered into the system, uh, into the RMS system. So a, a clearance sheet might say exceptionally cleared but yet in RMS it said something else. Okay. So for some reason there would be a discrepancy between what the physical…

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Discrepancy. …paperwork said versus what was in RMS? And then also you question which clearance should it really actually be and, um, there were, in my opinion, uh, as a Detective and also as a Detective Supervisor, Supervisor before there were, um, what I felt were using the wrong clearance was utilized or a case was cleared when it probably shouldn’t have been cleared, should have still been open and worked. Okay. So, and again, I don’t wanna put words in your mouth but, um, are you sayin’ that there was at least more than one instance where a case may have been cleared when it was still active investigation could have been done on it? Um, yes. Yeah, that that started to arise. And that is to give you just to try to keep the timeline, um, June 19th of 2008 so this is after the Division file was I think I said June 1st is when we created a Ju-, uh, Division file. (Pause) And before we get off track but, um, based on that last concern was when you all start goin’ through I guess the clearance letters and what not at least is my understanding when I looked through the SVU audit that you all were able to find you know several of those, uh, cases that had been cleared, uh, possibly erroneously that were reopened. Um, a lotta times there’s just a, just a number figure but it doesn’t really go into depth as to which case or which Detective would have been assigned to each case. Um hum. And, um, but then there’s other volumes that go and kind of be set out like this

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 where it would maybe be all Detective Edgar’s or you know whatever the name was... LUGO: LICKING: Um hum. …assigned and it would go through and show per Detective you know which cases you know each case that at least at that point had been assigned and then what the clearance was or at least what the, the last update to each case was. Did you guys actually, um, generate any type of a list per Detective that showed like say erroneous… Okay, well, yes. …clearances? So far in the timeline we have, this we haven’t even started the audit to give you an idea. Oh, okay. But yes, I do have, um, this is just the initial. This is sort of giving the, the initial, um, hey, uh, we might need to do something or something might need to be done. But it was first, um, I wanna say was the idea was let’s create a procedure. Let’s put it in place so at least we have a starting point from this point forward we can move in the, in the direction we think and everybody at the time command staff wise thought was the way to go, uh, myself, Lieutenant Riddle, um, Lieutenant Burden also assisted, uh, significantly and Captain Babb and even Captain Whitney ‘cause they were back and forth and, um, when Captain Babb came over and they split up the Division of GID.

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 So it was fix, let’s put our procedure in place. Let’s get what we have open right now let’s so we have a procedure for all of the new cases that are still coming in and we’ll move in that direction. Then we started to dive into the audit and go well, all the cases prior let’s start to review. We make sure these people got the cases got worked correctly. To answer your question a little bit better yes, there is, um, and I know that, uh, this is a little bit hard to sort of read and understand. But this was another of the audit a master spreadsheet which these pages sort of lay this way, it’s a lot easier to look on the computer. But this lists every case we went over. This lists who reviewed it. LICKING: LUGO: LICKING: And (unintel 44:53). Go ahead. …or, or go but I just wanna sure I understand what we were talkin’ about before. You said at least up until this point when you started putting the new procedures in place that was supposed to have been so that anything that was either currently assigned or assigned from that point on got worked correctly and then,… Got worked. …and then the audit that you put the focus on was, um, past or cleared cases? Correct. Okay, alright. Cases prior to that point.

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Okay. Um, so um, yes, from this say it was from June I wanna say 1st is what I said forward everything could be documented, could be, um, placed in a Division file, the copies could get to Records. We could track, uh, how many went to the County Attorney, what the updates are at the County Attorney. We could basically verify all that stuff and any entries made into RMS were then also correct, accurate. I don’t wanna say correct but accurate, um, to, to, uh, uh, the information we had. And on top of that I also kept the Excel spreadsheet, which I already showed you to mirror RMS to have also another searching capability for stuff moving forward… Okay. …from that June 1st, uh, launching. Um, we then held, of course, uh, during there were several meetings held but I just had the figure to go over our issues, so to speak. (Pause) There were several meetings held and that’s where I was getting some of this information. This one was June 19th on basically our administrative issues, paperwork flow, Division file, updates on deadlines, report tracking, um, all, all that kind of stuff. And at this time it appears I think as of June 19th, I actually made that, um, spreadsheet that I show for each Detective on the W: drive so they had access to it. Okay. So I would add cases on there, um, and they could view it. I think I locked them from actually making any changes; um, I believe I did that. So they could go in there and view it at any time and see what cases they needed to give me an update on, what cases they had. That was sort of their case log. And it was my decision to

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 lock it and work it that way so I sort of maintained their case log for them. Uh, a lot of there was a lot of, um, unhappy people, so to speak, at this time and constantly complaining that that’s only adding to their work load having to deal with a case log and give updates and all that kind of stuff. So I took it upon myself to say okay, well, I’ll do your case log for you. It’s there available. You can just focus on working your cases and you can see and you can change because nothing’s gonna really change on that case log without it really coming across my desk to be reviewed or a supervisor’s desk to be reviewed and then I would change the update all that. So those issues were all brought up at this meeting, including the issues that we already stated. Um, the paperwork flow, um, which, uh, was I think more of just an administrative flow there at the District, uh, making sure copies were going to Records, uh, making sure, uh, yeah, who had the responsibility of copying it, what the administrative changes were. Um, (pause) monthly stat form that’s completed and then, uh, another issue was the supplemental reports and clearance reports that started to, to arise at this point. And when I say supplemental or clearance reports, it was like we’ve already said, it appeared reviewing some of those cases and or cases that Detectives were clearing and they’re giving to me that they were missing supplements. Um, they would turn in a clearance sheet with some stuff. They would try to basically write their well, that was determined later. They were so leave that out there. But, um, just every or not every Detective but several Detectives were using their own forms, nothing was standardized as in supplemental format, as in clearance sheet format and the clearance sheet guidelines. So, um, like we said, cases being cleared inappropriately or what I felt were not correct, of course, we got this copied out of the Policy and Procedure for how you can clear cases in accordance with our Policy.

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 So at this meeting we go over all. LICKING: LUGO: And that was part of the Policy you know that you made for your Unit? Well, we did not make an actual official Office Manual. This was going in that direction. Um, it was that was one of the many things to do on the to do list of, of the phases before I was, um, abruptly just transferred out. Um, but um, I created a, we created the start of a, um, Ops Manual with the paperwork flow that sort of gives an idea of responsibility. This is just general stuff of how to work a case and where… Um hum. …when the case is worked where the copies go, um, to also avoid being on a missing DR list or anything of that nature because that issue I recall did also come up. And there were also several cases that came up and which were, if you wanna call, special projects. So they came from a Chief. They came from Preemployment, something of that nature and I was unable to find really any tracking, uh, system for those because these were a lot of these cases where given to the Detective to work and they didn’t have a DR number yet. So this procedure also put into place well, we’re gonna generate DR number. You’re gonna call, get a DR number and yes, you’re gonna be responsible for writing the official face sheet. But at least that then gives us a tracking of, uh, special projects or special cases that are not, uh, don’t just come in from routine patrol activity. Okay. So this was in June of 2008, so we sort of June 19th is when we had this meeting and July 1, I wanna say is when this the paperwork flow and the procedures that we were going to work from that point forward were finalized and put into place

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 and said this is what we, we were gonna do. The Detectives were given a option to give feedback on this, on this procedure, um, and if I remember correctly, not really any of them gave any official feedback and so we put it into effect, myself and Lieutenant Riddle, put it into effect, uh, July 1 of 2008 for all new cases moving forward. LICKING: Okay. And, um, ‘cause you know like we would talk about some of the issues that you had, some of the things you guys did to correct those and, and what, what you implemented, even though you may not officially called it an Ops Plan, I guess just from being an outsider, I might look at that and say and even though it might not have that official title, at least it shows from the beginning to the end of a case what each Detective should do. I guess I would say that is at least similar to an Ops Plan. Would you agree with that? I would agree with that, um, and this does and, and this meeting and this, and this flow and the procedures we were trying to put into place, um, also of course, you had, uh, would have applied to just, uh, communication flow, um, callout, uh, uh, activities like how we were going to process and deal with callouts. Um, I’m not going to say that the procedure they were using before was not correct, um, for callout procedures and just the way that the unit ran. Um, it’s a completely different style than, than I like to have or like to work and that I think is efficient as a, as a supervisor, um, rather than a more of a, I know some other supervising, uh, supervisor styles are if you wanna say hands off a lot more hands off and just, just go take care of it. And everybody sort of just, uh, don’t like to use the term but just wings it and then they still might get the job done just as well in, in the long run. I, I don’t, I don’t know that but it certainly wasn’t anything set in paper or a standardized procedure that I saw, um, and that’s why we put this into place, if you wanna call it. Yeah, uh, the starting of an Ops Plan, I think, uh, Ops- Ops Manual would, would be the way to go I think.

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 LICKING: LUGO: Um, okay, so from that point, um, where did you guys decide to go from there? Well, once this was finalized and put into place, um, we started to then go on to, um, (pause) looking at some of the prior cases. Now the first one, the first section of cases that we started to look into, um, were the, gone by their (pause). The first section were the inactive cases, um, that we were first going to dive into. Now how did we identify the inactive cases? Um, by basically printing up the RMS list of all the cases and I don’t remember why we picked the date, but the date that was selected or I think I might have chosen the date based on the complaints and the other issues that we saw. We went back to January 1st, 2005 is all the further we went back. So that would have been the last at the time almost three years. So the way that that went down was I printed up the RMS records. Let me take just one step back here. Um, during the course of getting to this point and seeing the inaccuracies in the RMS, um, and not having a paperwork flow one of the other issues that came up, um, were that administrative staff were changing information in RMS at the request of Detectives, where Detectives would just give their report right to them. It would cut the supervisor out, etcetera. So, um, a notice was put out, uh, and I spoke with or I emailed, didn’t speak with. I think I did actually speak with him after the email, Lieutenant Ed Moore, who was the supervisor of the administrative staff at the time and, uh, to basically halt them from changing anything so that we could get an accurate picture. So that was put out from that point forward and then once we had the, uh, July 1 we had the procedure in place. Then everybody was brought up to speed administrative staff alike so that everything would be, we would get an accurate picture of inactive cases or other cases that we’re looking at because if you look at it inactive today and then when three weeks later it got changed somehow and we didn’t change it, you go well, then slowly you’re duplicating work and you’re not being, uh, you’re starting to run in circles.

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 So I started with printing up all the RMS records for every one of the Detectives assigned there. Now, um, uh, disposition type and I’m goin’ I, I don’t recall ‘cause it’s been a while, like I said, since I’ve worked on the Detective side and have the I don’t have these memorized all the time as well. But I printed up this is just basically a, a work with cases by serial number. It’s all the ones that would have been assigned were cleared by this particular Detective. In this case this form shows Rojas. And then I went through and you look at the Disposition number and I highlighted, for instance, green I wanna say were the open ones. The orange was the x-cleared and I think the pink was inactive but it would match this Disposition code here. But by going through, maybe pink was submitted to County Attorney. Anyway, by going through I was able to get all of the DR numbers or case numbers that were assigned to each Detective and closed inactive going back to January 1st, 2005. That list was then transposed on to a form such as this, uh, was just a spreadsheet that I made up as well and some of these are duplicate copies and was, uh, given to each Detective. And I requested because, you have to understand, prior to this time we had no Division file. I requested them provide the entire case file or any documentation they had whatsoever on this list of cases. So that was given to each Detective and these were just inactive cases that were shown inactive at the time. The idea was we’re going to, myself or somebody is going to just skim through them, read through some of them and just make sure that okay, that’s. LICKING: So I’m assuming you kind of did, uh, uh, say if Rojas had we’ll just say 100 cases… Um hum. …you might not necessarily to look through all 100 I’m assuming, but you would at least take a good number of each Detectives cases or did you actually go

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 through? LUGO: No, every one… (File two) Every single one. Now once the numbers started to pile up because starting with the inactive, um, red flags continued to be raised. Um, several of these cases that were clearly inactive according to, to just say Rojas and I know it happened in a couple different Detectives but they were unable to provide the documentation or supporting documentation. Or they were able to provide merely a clearance sheet. Um, several of them then came up, uh, cases came up and there was a concern that they the Detectives informed they had nothing on the case or it’s all at Records, something of that nature. So simultaneously while the Detectives were working on pulling their inactive cases, which they were all given deadlines and they were all, I don’t wanna say it was all at the exact same time but maybe two or three Detectives this week or, or what, um, I also had, uh, we had some help from some Posse members. And the Posse members took the same list, went down to Records and copied everything that Records had on those cases. They then brought that back and, um, then that sort of was our where we were going to start from for our audit procedure. So inactives were generated and I don’t know if I have an exact number total. I do in here somewhere, I’m sure of it. When we were done with every Detective just identifying inactives and basically and I had boxes set up or stacks or whatever, um, let me see if I can give you a ballpark. LICKING: Yeah, I think I did see in Riddles, um, copy of his case for his SVU audit he did have a number there and I wanna say it was you know well over a hundred cases that you know that had been inactivated but really required some, some work. And, I guess, even a few of those still actually belonged to like the city of El

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 Mirage but. LUGO: LICKING: LUGO: Um hum. Um. Well, and and then during that time and during even, uh, and like I said, we’re just at the inactive stage but during that time yes, I would agree and I recall seeing cases popping up that say yeah, they, they actually were an El Mirage case that was inactive that appeared not to have been sent back to El Mirage so it was assumed that maybe it was closed or, or, or solved. But here you go, yeah, give just give me a ballpark of a number, um, uh, 166, uh, inactive cases sort of was a ballpark number, um, that we came up with from all of the Detectives. Um, and I wanna say (pause) yes, so um, 166 inactive cases, I believe, is a ballpark number. Um, of those let me walk you through what we then did with each case. Another check list which (pause) I’ll give you an idea. Once that case was received, um, and of course, throughout this time, um, Lieutenant Riddles brought up to speed on a daily if not more frequently than that basis. He was out for some time. Uh, I think he had a medical issue for a week or two weeks or maybe longer. Um, Lieutenant Burden was our acting Lieutenant as well, who was also working down there and he was brought up to speed. Both of them assisted with doing this procedure as well as the Posse members and, of course, then Captain Penny Babb was also pretty much brought up to speed almost on a I wanna say on a daily basis but maybe I’m sure there’s days that that we missed here or there. Inactive cases and we’re all of the, the case file was given from the Detective. From that point I generated a, a basically a let me (pause). There was a couple different forms here to help keep track of these. But what was done was, um, once Investigator: Sgt. B.Licking, #S1122, Sgt. C.Morrison, S1509 Reviewer: Capt. K.Holmes,S#982 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: March 9, 2011/1500 hours Page 34 of 57

MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 the number started to clear and once just an initial look by me over, um, several and by Lieutenant Riddle and by Lieutenant Burden af- after looking at several of them going well, this is gonna require us to go through every one, um, the idea was we’re going to get just about every other supervisor in GID involved to help review these cases. Prior to doing that case file is received of inactive from all the Detectives. They’re checked off the list. Um, my Posse member goes and gets copies from Records. Made up a form and every, for instance, it shows complete copy obtained from Records. That was completed form for this, one of these forms was made up for every one of them. A file folder was made up for every case. And myself and I know that, uh, Lieutenant Burden helped some. Don’t think the Posse member helped on this, uh, aspect but, uh, I think Riddle helped on some of this and I think another Sergeant, uh, Batiste, I think also helped at some point on some of this. We went through page by page of every, uh, page of the- these cases to compare them to Records. So you have the Records copy here and what they gave to make sure everything in Records mirrored what we had and vice versa.

LICKING: LUGO:

Okay. So after going through all that paper that was completed now we had an active file. If there were stuff that wasn’t at Records, supplements, etcetera they were then copied and sent to Records so that we matched Records and Records matched with what we had at our Division file minus, um, you know like a working DVD or something of that nature that wouldn’t go to Records. Then, um, we also had Property pull every Property invoice for all of these cases. Um, that was also, uh, marked whether we obtained one or not ‘cause there were several cases of course no Property was ever impounded, um, and rightly so. There was no, no evidence, no physical evidence to impound so that was marked if there was actually invoice collected or if Property came back and told us we never

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 took anything or we never had anything. LICKING: Um, when it came to ‘cause obviously this took quite a while for you guys to go through each of these cases and verify with Records and what not. Um, I know we’re kind of pushing an hour already. We kinda like to kinda take a break every about an hour but, um, you know when we come back, one of the things I’m hopin’ that we might be able to do is just if, if I could get, um, kind of a clear picture of at least your understanding of each of the Detectives, um, you know which ones seemed to be you know following what they should do as, as a case Detective and which ones weren’t. Uh, maybe if we can kinda look at that. I’m not sure if you’ve got that in here but, um, like I said for the time being we do you mind taking a break for a minute? No. Okay. Um, did you need more water or anything? Um, some more water would be appreciated, yes. Okay, right, I’ll get that. Um.

LUGO: LICKING: LUGO: LICKING:

MORRISON: Bathroom? LICKING: Yeah.

MORRISON: Need to use the bathroom or anything? LUGO: LICKING: I’m good right now. Okay. Um, time out is about, uh, 1:15. Um, and then you’re welcome to get up

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 and walk around if you’d like and I’ll get you some water. LUGO: Okay. (Pause) LICKING: LUGO: LICKING: Alright, (unintel 9:04). Thank you. Let me, uh, just so you’re aware I’ll be runnin’ down just to chat with Lieutenant to see if there’s anything else he wants me to kinda get into and I’ll be, I’ll be right back so. Okay. Go ahead and make yourself at home. (Long pause) LICKING: Alright, time back in is about, uh, about 1:26. Um, Greg, for the sake of the transcript, did anybody talk to you about the case during the break? No. Okay. Um, spill that. What we were hopin’ to do and I, like I said, I know this is such a, an exhausting case just in the stuff that you’ve done already but, um, if we were to back track you know quite a bit, can you tell me what, um, this Unit supervisory system that, um, Sergeant Seagraves had in place would you be able to identify that or would you only be guessing at this point or do you have a good

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 idea of how things operated before you got there? LUGO: Um, I that would be mere speculation I think on my part, um, with regard to just, uh, hearsay from the, the different Detectives saying we didn’t do it this way, etcetera, etcetera. Uh. When you got there, um, say when, when you first started getting these complaints about different cases that you shared earlier, um, at any time do you ever remember callin’ Kim up and just sayin’ hey, I got a question about this or? No. Um, I remember, I remember having contact with her on one or two instances. Um, I think it was, uh, over email. Okay. Um, I don’t think it has anything to do with I think I have a form, um. I think one of them was a, um, issue at District IV, ‘cause that’s where she was then assigned to ‘cause she got promoted and moved to IV. There was a question or there was a case that District IV wanted us to work or something like that. One of the emails in the conversation was reference that. I wanna say I think there was another email having to do with one of the a case that came up that we were unsure about or, um, uh, I’m tryin’ to think of the, the circumstances of that. Yeah. I don’t recall there being a specific telephone conversation. Okay. There might have been one but.

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LICKING:

But those, those contacts to, to at least to the best of your recollection, I know it’s been a long time. They didn’t really have anything to do with the system she had in place before you got there, nothin’ like that? Correct. It was nothing to the effect of… Okay. …what case management did you have? Uh, you know, uh, where is your case log? That’s correct. There was never a conversation. Um. At least from reading, um, all the information that we’ve read up to now it alludes me to at least according to Sergeant Seagraves at the time that she had a like a log book. Do you, do you recall that being how she tracked her cases? Like I said, I do recall seeing a binder, like I said earlier, um, there in her office. What ended up happening to it, um, I don’t recall. Um, my best recollection and my best educated guess would be I think it was turned over to, uh, Lieutenant Riddle or not, I’m sorry, Lieutenant Tucker at the time, uh, because it was come across, uh, in the in Sergeant at the time, Seagraves’ old office the office that then I,… Okay. …I occupied. Uh. Well, let me ask you this. Would it be fair to say that early as a new supervisor into that Detective unit, you didn’t really get any support from her?

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 LUGO: LICKING: I. You know I mean I guess if someone were to come in and replace me in IA now, … Um hum. …I, I guess I would just automatically assume that all of the cases that I have at that point I would, I would turn over to that new person that came in and try to explain to them you know kind of where I was at with each case and, and that type of thing. Did, did you get that in that transition? What I recall of the transition, um, was um, I sat down with her I wanna say a couple days, maybe a week prior to her leaving, um, and there was pretty much here’s this, here’s this and, like I said, there was a stack of paper this and that and verbally ran through just what all that stuff was. And pretty much that was pretty much it. I don’t ever recall it coming up or her informing me that hey, this is how I track each case. Um, does that mean that it wasn’t happening? I can’t say. But I don’t remember that being a topic of the conversation. It was and I’m going off a guess. It was maybe less than a half an hour meeting, um, and um, I wanna say then that was pretty much the end of any real, uh, contact, uh, reference the transfer. And then when I got moved in there moved into her office that stuff was still either laying on a desk or she gave me and I walked down to my office in Jail Crimes and that was it. Okay. Um, other than an isolated like I said contact here, there on just a specific case or a specific question,…

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 LICKING: LUGO: LICKING: Okay. …uh, of that nature. Okay. Um, when we talk about the and the reason I bring this particular, uh, Detective’s name up, uh, Eric Harrala, uh, from what I understand you said he had, uh, been replaced by, uh, Detective Edgar shortly before you got there. Is that right? Okay. Correct. I wanna say it was yeah, very shortly before he came back to Jail Crimes, ‘cause he worked for me at Jail Crimes at one point, um, and he came back there. I, I think it was a couple weeks maybe. Okay. Um, it’s my understanding at least from what we’ve read so far in, in prior stuff that when he transferred out of, uh, the SVU, um, that he had taken with him, uh, several pieces of case information with him and actually stored it in his garage. Does that, uh, strike a bell with you (unintel 25:12)? That totally rings a bell, yes. Okay. Um, do you remember and I wasn’t really ever able to find any documentation to, to say exactly what those pieces of evidence were or if they were like case notes or? Um, that’s great if you could, um, and, and just, just so you’re aware, um, I’m glad you’ve got all this documentation ‘cause a lot of this is, is new in addition to the 18 volumes that we’ve got back there. So, um, what, uh, what have you got that that you can at least tell us and describe? Well, I’m, I’m tryin’ to go off and I, when I reviewed this stuff, of course, for for today I reviewed most of the stuff yesterday. Um, I was trying to recall exactly how it came to my attention that he had this, this i- these items, paperwork,

LUGO:

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 etcetera. Um, and I was unable to find any notes or anything on how that came about the specifics of that. How I became aware of that. I believe and I’m going off my memory here it came about by either looking for information on a particular case. Um, we were trying, trying to find supplements or somebody referred in the case that Detective so and so did this on it that Harrala did this. And we were trying to find that and so then contact was made between I made, eventually, made contact with Detective Harrala. And I wanna say that was over the phone, um, and he was in I think District VII at the time. And, um, that would have been I have the date that I picked it up from him somewhere here. (Pause) Oh, prior to July 20th but I’ll find that that date that I actually, uh, met him but. LICKING: Sure, no problem. And like I and I understand you’ve got a bunch of information here. But, um, I. But does it, do you actually detail what items you actually picked up from his residence? Correct. Well. And I’m assuming that it’s, I’m correct in saying that you had, you had, somebody had to go out to his residence to pick it up or? Well, um, how it sort of went down was and I got in contact with him. He made, made mention that he had these items, paperwork or something he thought maybe he had the item we were looking for. I don’t recall exactly, like I said, the content of that conversation; however, I told him that I need to get all that stuff. This was now, of course, now we’re into July and after the inactive stuff and everything else we start, um, uh, trying not to play any games with anybody anymore. The idea

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 and going into this from the get go, um, with support from all of the Command staff was we’re just gonna try to fix it. Let’s get these people the service they need. Let’s get the cases goin’ and let’s move forward. Let’s not sit here and you know try to ‘cause everybody, of course, initially gets on the defensive and you know it was like let’s just receive the stuff and we’re gonna go. So I told him I needed all of that stuff. Um, and I remember setting up a meet with him and I have the, like I said, somewhere in here the time and location but it was morning hours. Um, when I say that maybe like 7, 8 a.m., 6 a.m., um, at a Target, uh, super- well, Target or, uh, just a Target store… LICKING: LUGO: (Unintel 28:51) …and somewhere on Southern, I think and I think I have the location in here somewhere, somewhere in Tempe. I think it was Southern or Baseline and McClintock, which was somewhere right around where his house was. Whether he didn’t want me to come to his house or what, I don’t know. It was just fine. I just, we just wanted to get the stuff. I show up in the parking lot. Um, he provides me with one box, I believe, a box of various items. Now right then, of course, I did not go through every item there on the, in the parking lot of the Target but, um, I gather the box and the box is brought back to, uh, my office at GID. Um, on July 20th, which I don’t like I said, I’ll have to find the other date that I actually got it from him. On July 20th, um, all of the items were inventoried that were in that box, um, and if I remember correctly, there was a, we had, I had a brief conversation with him at the Target in the parking lot something to the effect of him saying well, I didn’t know, um, this is, we didn’t really know what to do with the stuff when I left. Some of it was, uh, working copies. Um, he sort of just I mean that was sort of the response and I didn’t go into depth questioning him or anything. It was like just give me the stuff ‘cause we’re gonna, we need to fix this and there’s information and stuff on cases. Investigator: Sgt. B.Licking, #S1122, Sgt. C.Morrison, S1509 Reviewer: Capt. K.Holmes,S#982 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: March 9, 2011/1500 hours Page 43 of 57

MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 We need to get it with the case. LICKING: LUGO: Okay. So I do have a list of all of the stuff. And it goes into fairly detail, uh, by DR number, of course. You know one CD marked original. Um, yeah, and we checked to see if it was in. So some of this, at least in your opinion, would be you know vital evidence for each case. Is that would it be fair to say? Uh, I think that would be extremely fair to say, yes. Okay. Um, especially the items, some of them if I remember, um, clearance sheet. I mean it’s a copy for, uh, for supplements to Property Invoices. That could have just been a copy. To me that’s not very significant as opposed to, uh, you know three CD’s for this DR marked original, um, uh, uh, and they were not when we checked, they were not in Property and Evidence. Okay. So they weren’t like a working copy or an extra copy.

LICKING:

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And as reading my notes here now, too I think and I, uh, I’m tryin’ to recall that conversation I had with him at the Target. I think he in the box he bundled stuff like said this is original and this is like duplicate copies or unknown. I forget how

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 he had it because in my notes here I list, uh, in the bundle that he indicated to be original copies, okay? So there was a you know that, of course, to me would be more concerning than. And what that CD was I don’t have. We didn’t actually, I didn’t actually review the CD myself to see what the contents of were, but most of them, of course, based on my experience, uh, Sex Crimes are either audio recordings of interviews or some type of contact and or an actual interview. Um, we used to, when we first started having the digital recording at GID, we only could burn them to CD’s like the interview rooms the actual video so you had for each case if you had a four hour interview, you had, um, eight CD’s… LICKING: LUGO: LICKING: LUGO: LICKING: Okay. …until we switched over to DVD’s… Gotcha. …so. And at least it looks I’m gonna guess and say that all of those pieces of evidence that Detective Rojas turned over to you they were linked with previous SVU cases that were assigned to him, is that right? Um, well, I don’t know if they were all assigned to him. Uh, I, I don’t know that, uh, information. I think I have a breakdown. Would it be fair to say that they were all SVU cases? Uh, I think it would be fair to say that. I think, uh, there might have been one or two in there that maybe were a different area, Jail Crimes or something. But I wanna say a majority of them were all and I’m trying to, I’m trying to think for a

LUGO:

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 second on where. LICKING: And let me just ask you this real quick. Do you know, um, I know that there was a separate case that had been started on Detective Rojas at one point. Um hum. Um, which they actually had a separate IA case. Do you know if anything was started against Detective Harrala for mismanaging property? Uh, I do not believe. Um, I know the information was brought up, of course to, uh, Riddle, uh, Lieutenant Riddle and I remember explaining. I’m pretty sure I remember explaining it to Captain Penny Babb as well. And, um, I think they were also, it was also brought up in one of the several meetings with, um, Chief Knight and Chief Freeman that we had reference this whole ongoing, um, deal. At least to your knowledge, there wasn’t a separate IA started? Correct. I was never instructed nor were was I aware of any separate IA number. At this point, you guys just wanted to, uh,… That was. …that was by the victims of the SVU cases you had and all that? Correct. And that basically through this entire, uh, process all the way through even to when I got myself and Lieutenant Riddle went back there. In ’09 we got sent back there to go help tie up some loose ends on it. Um, the information that was provided to the Detectives and that the marching order, so to speak, were um,

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 let’s just get it fixed. Okay, we’re not going to sit here and you know try to nit pick everything. Let’s just we need to get a procedure, get it and, like I said, it was very. LICKING: LUGO: And it started the ball rollin’ from here on makin’ sure we do things right. Correct. And that was repeated to all of the Detectives, uh, by me several times. And I know that, uh, Captain Babb was, uh, also in support of that and she brought that up, too. It was ‘cause, like I said, everybody got on the defensive. It was very, not a very pleasant place to be for a while, um, to work. Sure. But. If, if I were to go through and, like I said, some of the, the, the main names that pop out in the, in the course of that audit, um, as having not properly impounded evidence correctly, uh, it would have been, um, Jim Weege, Mary Ward, Roy Rojas and Eric Harrala. Um, would that would, would those be, would that be fair to say that those individuals did not properly, um, impound evidence correctly to Property room? Based on everything that I see, I would say yes. Okay. Besides those individuals, is there anyone else that you can think of that also had an issue with, uh, mismanaging property and evidence? No, not, not, uh, of those of the Detectives in Sex Crimes. I would say, no. Okay. Alright.

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LUGO: LICKING:

Um, yeah. Okay. Um, gosh, I can’t think of anything else at this point. Can you think of anything?

MORRISON: Um, I guess I wanted to dumb down some of the, uh, some of the stuff that we talked about as far as the clearance of the, the cases. Um, you, am I rememberin’ right, did you say there was 166 cases that were cleared inactive? LUGO: That was the ball park number, yes that I gave for inactive. Now, um, I don’t know how far, like I said, in depth you really wanna go. But that number slowly then got added to by for instance, um,… Exceptionally cleared cases. …the well, the cases that came from Harrala all those, all those property and everything. We went through the same process for all of those if they weren’t already part of the inactive bunch, ‘cause they might have already been part of the inactive bunch. So then those got added to it, then we went to exceptionally cleared, then we went to, um, other special projects and then we went to all of those items that we found in other people’s offices. Um, so that number eventually ballooned to I wanna say somewhere over 500.

LICKING: LUGO:

MORRISON: Okay, but the original 166 were just cleared out by the Detectives as inactive? LUGO: Yes, give or take. I mean that’s a ball park number.

MORRISON: Right.

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 LUGO: Um, I, like I said, as one’s come up, came up so that’s like a ball park number. I wouldn’t say that it was 166 right on the nose.

MORRISON: Right, right. And in Policy that pretty much would suggest that there wasn’t anything more that could be done with the case at that point, right? LUGO: No more investigative steps, uh, or any investigative steps would basically be, what’s the word, futile, futile and maybe wouldn’t you know. All the, you’ve done everything you can do, um, to either identify the perpetrator or to work the case and you got nothing, you got no leads, you got no updated info, etcetera, correct.

MORRISON: And you said that and number of those cases just from your reviewing them you say that there was additional steps that could be taken, uh, to collect additional evidence and investigate those cases? LUGO: Right. Of the 166 and, like I said, that’s a ball park number because some of the other stuff got lumped into it a case here or there. Um, after we reviewed, um, in the review process and, uh, I have all of the worksheets for every case that was reviewed, 36 of them were good to go, uh, the way they were. Whoever the reviewer was, was, uh, satisfied with that would classify in accordance with the procedure as being inactive. Um, 130 of them, uh, needed some type of investigative attention or to be reopened. And when I say investigative attention or to be reopened that could mean there’s leads to go out on,…

MORRISON: Right. LUGO: …um, or that could also mean that there’s documentation missing to justify the inactive clearance say inactive, uh, but there’s no supplements. You have initial report and a clearance sheet that says inactive and maybe a sentence or two. The supplements aren’t done, etcetera. Um, so that if the case ever went and went

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 active, we got a tip, you would be well behind the, the curve. MORRISON: Right. LUGO: And of the that 130, uh, five of them were already, uh, when we reviewed it, five of them were already reopened and reassigned for another reason—a complaint, something that I stumbled upon, a Detective came to me and said I realize I got a tip on this case or something. And, uh, then there were still five remaining that needed to still be reviewed of inactive and I think that for some reason we couldn’t come up with the documents or something or the DR number was wrong or, or something like that.

MORRISON: Okay. Through your conversations with the Detectives and your experience working with them, do you believe that they had a good knowledge of, of how cases should be cleared and that clearing the cases inactive wouldn’t be appropriate in those situations? LUGO: I believe that, um, all of those individuals that were assigned there have were Detectives, uh, for some time for some length of time. Um, I strongly believe that they should have been aware of the proper, uh, procedure for clearing cases or the proper classification and what that means. Um, (pause) I can’t say for certainty that they knew what that meant and they knew that what they were doing where they were not supposed to do. Um, there was an issue that came up later in the, the course of this audit where several of the cases and there was verbal comments made here there in passing that they were just told by Command staff to do this to do that.

MORRISON: LUGO: Um, so and I think if I remember correctly on several of the clearance sheets, it

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 says this case will be inactive or exceptionally cleared at the request of Command staff or something like that. So, I, I don’t know if that completely answers your question but to me as a reasonable person and being working as a Detective and having that experience, by all means, you should know what the appropriate clearance means or what inactive really means. Whether that was the direction that they chose to go in knowingly or they were instructed to do, I don’t know. I mean I never instructed them to do that and at our first meeting, um, they were provided all with a copy of the right out of the Policy what each clearance means and what each clearance type was. And from that point once that was issued and the July date forward, of course, I would look for that criteria before I approved a report. MORRISON: Okay. That kinda gets me down to my next, uh, question was you were looking at basically a five year time span, is that right? LUGO: Um, well, of the during the audit, yes. Well, no, we went to 2005 is when we went back to.

MORRISON: Okay, so three years. LUGO: So from ’08 when this was all going on, um, to 2005 we went back to January 1, unless the case somehow came to light, um, a complaint, we stumbled upon evidence,...

MORRISON: Right. LUGO: …something. We stumbled upon it further then we would, of course, address those cases as well.

MORRISON: Okay. Now so you’re talkin’ mainly about a three year time period. Was there to the best of your recollection, were there a number of different supervisors over the Investigator: Sgt. B.Licking, #S1122, Sgt. C.Morrison, S1509 Reviewer: Capt. K.Holmes,S#982 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: March 9, 2011/1500 hours Page 51 of 57

MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 unit during that time or, or just one or do you recall? LUGO: Uh, based on, uh, since I worked almost back to that same time frame in, in the same building there at GID, um, the only supervisors I remember of that unit, uh, during that time is, uh, Darrell Newton, Sergeant Darrell Newton and then he was replaced by Sergeant Kim Seagraves.

MORRISON: Okay. LUGO: When Newton was actually assigned there, I don’t know. But I know I was assigned to GID somewhere in I think it was ’05, um, and Darrell Newton was already there as the Sergeant of Sex Crimes so.

MORRISON: Okay. And one of the two of them over that time span would have had to have seen these reports coming through and signed off the manner in which they were cleared? LUGO: If the procedure was yes, if the paperwork procedure was followed. Um, I don’t know for certain that, um, they reviewed every one.

MORRISON: Okay. LUGO: And that’s also why we put into procedures a place. There are several of them that we came across and I have, uh, well, I have copies of clearance sheets, um, that basically show that their initials or signature on the bottom. So it shows that it’s yes, it came across their desk. They had to have signed it or initialed it, whether they read it or not I, I can’t say.

MORRISON: Okay. That’s really all I wanted to touch on.

Investigator: Sgt. B.Licking, #S1122, Sgt. C.Morrison, S1509 Reviewer: Capt. K.Holmes,S#982 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: March 9, 2011/1500 hours Page 52 of 57

MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 LICKING: LUGO: LICKING: Okay. Let me shut this off again. It vibrated. (Unintel 45:07)?

MORRISON: Yeah, sure. LICKING: Okay. Um, listen, we’re gonna take another, another break real quick. Did you need to use the restroom (unintel 45:11)? Um, no, I don’t. Um, the yeah, well, I guess some information that might and I’d like I don’t know what else you, you have with regard to the other stuff. But I actually copied, just to give you an idea, of every case that we reviewed, um, I actually kept a copy of the original review worksheet that shows who reviewed it and what they think needs to be done, the DR number all that kinda stuff. Then on top of that is a, I have an example right here. So the, the DR number here, of course, like for instance, Captain Whitney reviewed it is what we did for each one that was reviewed and I know, uh, Lieutenant Tucker took. I sent him this form and he used it for something else as well. And then a copy of the clearance sheet if there was one at the time, so whether it was in the case file or we got it from Records if there was one, of course, and then a copy of what RMS showed how it was cleared at the time.

LUGO:

MORRISON: O- okay. LUGO: So there’s one of these for every case that we actually reviewed in the audit process. And you actually have copies of all this or?

LICKING:

Investigator: Sgt. B.Licking, #S1122, Sgt. C.Morrison, S1509 Reviewer: Capt. K.Holmes,S#982 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: March 9, 2011/1500 hours Page 53 of 57

MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080

LUGO: LICKING: LUGO: LICKING:

Yes. Still? Okay. I have this is the, um, yeah, I have copies, um, of all that stuff. Alright that sounds good. Okay, well, let me take a real quick. Um, you need some more water? Uh, yeah, yes, please. Yeah. Uh, time out is about 1:55 and, uh. (Pause)

LUGO: LICKING:

LUGO: LICKING: LUGO:

Thank you. Give me a couple minutes and I’ll be right back. No problem. (Long pause)

LICKING:

Alrighty, uh, time back in is right at 2:00. And, uh, you know for right now, um, Greg, we really can’t think of too much else. And like I said, I know you’ve gotten you guys did a lot of fixes and things like that for this. Um.

MORRISON: I don’t think there’s anything else verbally that we feel like we need to go over. We want copies of everything you got so we can sit and rifle through it, but we Investigator: Sgt. B.Licking, #S1122, Sgt. C.Morrison, S1509 Reviewer: Capt. K.Holmes,S#982 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: March 9, 2011/1500 hours Page 54 of 57

MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 don’t wanna waste any more of your time than, than necessary. LICKING: Yeah, ‘cause it’s gonna take us a while to get through everything as well. Um, from what I understand, you’ve got this and then you’ve got some other stuff in your car, is that right? Nine more binders, yeah. Okay. Um. Those are mainly these… Okay. …is what those are. And, um, so I mean they’re all… Yeah, if you don’t mind we’ll. …like, um, yeah, I think eight of them are like these and they’re all in, of course, sequential order by year and everything else. Gotcha, okay. And then the other one is, um, what we titled it as the DR number for, uh, the operation, if you wanna call it, clean or whatever when we went through Detective Ward, Weedy and Rojas’s office more less Ward and Weedy’s office and all of that stuff that was determined to either be Evidence or we couldn’t tell was impounded. So I have all those Property, um, forms, um, when we impounded them and, uh, that’s the other binder,...

LUGO: LICKING: LUGO: LICKING: LUGO: LICKING: LUGO:

LICKING: LUGO:

Investigator: Sgt. B.Licking, #S1122, Sgt. C.Morrison, S1509 Reviewer: Capt. K.Holmes,S#982 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: March 9, 2011/1500 hours Page 55 of 57

MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 LICKING: LUGO: LICKING: Okay. …um, so. Sounds like a deal. Well, uh, it’s 2:00 now. Um, I just kinda friendly reminder, obviously, um, just make sure that you know with the Notice of Investigation just make sure you don’t talk to anybody about this and what not. Okay. Other than that we appreciate your time. Okay. So thanks. Excellent. I’m gonna go ahead and turn this off and then I’ll get a hand dolly and, um, we’ll go collect those other things. They’re two small boxes. Oh, okay. Um, the so there’s like, what four, four I think of these in one and five in the other. Okay. That’s all that it is. I mean.

LUGO: LICKING: LUGO: LICKING: LUGO: LICKING:

LUGO: LICKING: LUGO: LICKING: LUGO:

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080

LICKING:

Okay.

MORRISON: If you don’t mind me sayin’, you did a very thorough job with your portion of the investigation it looks like. LUGO: Um, well, yeah (chuckles). The idea like I said was get it fixed.

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