MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 Interview with Deputy Rojas, S0871 April 7, 2011

LICKING: ROJAS: LICKING: Uh, do you happen to know Cory? No. Okay, this is, uh, Cory Morrison.

MORRISON: Nice to meet you. ROJAS: LICKING: My name’s Roy Rojas. Roy Rojas. Uh, today’s date is, uh, April the 7th, 2011. Time in is about 2:45 and, um, just for the transcription, I’m Sergeant Brad Licking, 1122, uh, Cory Morrison.

MORRISON: 1509. LICKING: ROJAS: LICKING: And Roy, if you can state your name and your serial number. Rodrigo T. Rojas, serial number 871. Okay, great. Um, and you and I have worked on and off, uh, together for a while but,… Yeah. …um, you were tellin’ me before you got about 22 almost 23 years, is that right? Sworn I have 22 years, uh, comin’ up in July will be 22. Total with the County has

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Investigator: Sgt. B. Licking, S1122/Sgt. C. Morrison, S1509 Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #0982 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: April 15, 2011/1420 hours Page 1 of 22

MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 been 28. LICKING: Good deal, okay. Um, since you came over as Sworn what, what positions have you held so far? Since, uh, been a Deputy Sheriff? Right. Well, Patrol, um, been with the, uh, the Special Vic-, um, SID, Special Investigations, Court Criminal Court Services, uh, Warrants Division, uh, GID their, um, Jail Crimes and, uh, Special Victims Unit and then back to Patrol. Okay, cool. Um, this particular case, uh, is IA case number 08-0080. Obviously, it’s an older case. Um, you know they had started this case, um, a while back and for whatever reason it got placed on hold for a while and then, uh, they asked us to. And it never had any official findings that were placed on the case so they asked us to, um, kinda reopen it up and go over it and what not. Um, some of the things that had gotten listed and tryst me, you’re not the only persons that’s been you know had some concerns brought up in the case. Um, but for this particular case one of the things that they, um, were kinda looking at was the SVU, uh, in particular as to how they manage their cases, the evidence. Um, some of the cases that, um, were being worked by MCSO when we had the El Mirage contract and what not. Um, do you remember the dates that you were in SVU? The dates?

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MORRISON: Um hum. LICKING: Yeah, like when you transferred in and when, when you left?

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080

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Uh,... Roughly. …transferred in in, uh, let’s see here. Wanna guesstimate I think it’s Ju-, uh, May of, uh, into Special Victims Unit? Right. May, uh, May of 2000, let’s see, I think it was 2001. Let’s see, I’m tryin’ to think ‘cause, uh, uh, it was in 2000, 2001 May and. Do, do you remember who your Sergeant was at the time… Uh. …when you, when you first went over? I think it was, uh, Sergeant, uh, retired, um. Was that Don Harvey by any chance or… No. …Darrell Newton? No, it was before. Oh, okay.

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080

ROJAS:

It was before those two, uh, before Don. As a matter of fact, Don, uh, replaced him or he was transferred back. Um, uh, I wanna say Daugherty but it’s Daugherty. Daugherty was still a slick sleeve at that time, uh, detective. Um, (pause) gosh, darn it. You said timeframe was kinda around the, the middle of 2001, somewhere around there? Yeah. Okay. Around there. Um, how, how long were you there for? Uh, about seven and a half years. Okay. Alright. And it’s my understanding just from reading the case, uh, Kim Seagraves would have been your last Sergeant, is that correct or it’s? No, it was, uh, Greg Lugo. Oh, okay, Greg did, okay, Greg took over from. Um, when, uh, Mary Ward, uh, left and Jim Weeky left, uh, and what not they started goin’ through cleaning out offices and then when you transferred out they noticed that at one point, um, and and I know that there was another investigation involving just a box that you had gotten from Mary Ward.

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Investigator: Sgt. B. Licking, S1122/Sgt. C. Morrison, S1509 Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #0982 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: April 15, 2011/1420 hours Page 4 of 22

MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 ROJAS: LICKING: Um hum. This, this, this would be a, a, a separate case from that, um, and a, and a different, um, concern that was raised during this, uh, what we kinda dubbed the SVU case and it’s the 0080 up here in IA. Um, and it had to do with evidence that they found in, um, your office that was at the Special Victims Unit after you transferred out. Um, and they’ve got a list of things here. Um, uh, I’m tryin’ to think, uh, SerSergeant Calderone, I guess was tasked with going through items, um, that were in boxes that were left in your office. Um, and they’ve, basically, when, when I go through the list here, um, and I’ll, I’ll show it to you real quick. Um hum. Basically what it’s got listed here is several items, um, that apparently at least according to them when they started doin’ a little bit of back tracking, um, looked like they were associated with, uh, Sex Crimes cases. And these were basically how the items were itemized and, uh, basically, um, logged and things like that as they were they, when they were in the box. So, um, does any of this? And I know this is really old Roy, so I mean, I mean if anybody threw a DR number at me I wouldn’t be able to go back and look and go, oh yeah, I, I remember that. I just wouldn’t do that. But I thought maybe if you took a look at this and you know maybe some of the names might jump out at you if you remember a particular person with a case or what not. ROJAS: LICKING: Well, I know this one. That one I do remember. Okay.

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Investigator: Sgt. B. Licking, S1122/Sgt. C. Morrison, S1509 Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #0982 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: April 15, 2011/1420 hours Page 5 of 22

MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 ROJAS: LICKING: ROJAS: LICKING: ROJAS: LICKING: It was in a, uh, involved a, a Deputy at the Office. Okay. But if that that wasn’t I mean it wasn’t evidence. They were copies, alright? Okay. Because the, uh, tapes and all that were already, uh, in, uh, Property and Evidence. Okay. Um, for this particular one ‘cause I, I notice when I go through and some of these just say I mean it’ll actually say like, like this one here is a copy of such and such or whatever. Um hum. Some of them are actually listed as original Maria. Um hum. Um, like this other one here you know one marked original Maria and that type a thing. And so I kinda went through ‘cause and, obviously, as a Detective, obviously, we need to be able to have a working copy of somethin’ when we’re writin’ somethin’ up. Sure, uh huh. And, and we’re gonna have pieces of evidence in our office. Sure.

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080

LICKING:

And that’s that’s gonna happen as we’re workin’ on cases but I think the concern that was raised is that they saw you know quite a few that were marked originals. Um hum. Um, and then we looked at the back, um, some of them were turn, I think already got listed here. Um, let me see where ‘cause I had to actually mark some of these. Um, again a lot of them, a lot of them are sayin’ originals on it. Um, hum, there was a couple here that were marked that basically just needed to be put into Property. Let me see if I can find them. Hum. And it looked like it was like a hand written note. I, well, I don’t remember any, any further. The reason why I remember that one is because of the name… Okay. …you know that it, I know that that’s a, uh, the one that involved, uh, some of the people. This one in particular, um, and for the sake of the transcript I’ll read the number, 08-013924 and it’s got listed on here impound as evidence you know type thing. Um, you know it says just impound. So I, I guess the, the concern that got raised was, um, you know the items that were in your office. And you, you didn’t, you didn’t, I’m gonna assume that you didn’t share an office with anybody, is that correct?

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080

ROJAS: LICKING:

Right. I didn’t share. Okay. Um, would there had really been any reason that anybody else’s cases evidence would be in your office after you left? There would be no, no reason for them to, to store any evidence there. Okay. Um, what was the, what was, could you tell me like for your common practice was it common for you to like say leave, leave an item there for any length of time like say past after you had already a supplement? Um, did that happen in the past or? Well, what happened is I mean it, it, if I understand where you’re comin’ from, um, what we would do is get our, um, recording and then we use that, uh, to you know do our, our supplementive work. And depending. And when you say re- recording, are you talking about a copy of the original? The original. Okay. But, but for the most part what I did I, I did a copy either CD and before that it would have been you know tape cassettes or VHS. And sometimes, um, we would make like two originals and one of them would have been sent to Property and Evidence and the other one we would keep in our, it would be the same thing. But, um, that I don’t I, I but don’t remember what. Well, and I just wanna make sure we don’t kinda mix words a little bit. I mean,

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Investigator: Sgt. B. Licking, S1122/Sgt. C. Morrison, S1509 Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #0982 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: April 15, 2011/1420 hours Page 8 of 22

MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 obviously, if you’re gonna have a working copy and like I said,… ROJAS: LICKING: ROJAS: LICKING: Um hum. …some of these are marked original, um, and then some of them are marked copy. Um hum. So, um, I mean like this, this particular one here it’s got, uh, yeah, whether they’re suspects or witnesses or victims, I’m not sure but, obviously, it says an original you know with this person’s name on it. And then another CD it’s a copy of another person. So, um, I mean I, I remember out in District, District II how we would do things is we would always, like you said, you would have the original and that would be you know once you had a copy made that would go back to Property and Evidence or back to the County Attorney, whoever you got it from. Um hum. Um, and then you just work off of the copy…. Right. ...that type thing and, obviously, that’s you know so I mean we all know in case it gets lost at least there’s a, an actual… Right. …original and copy somewhere else so. Um,… Well.

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080

LICKING:

…would there, would there have been any reason that you would, you would keep more than one? I mean when you go through there I mean there’s. More than one copy? Yeah. Well. An original and a copy is like what we’ve got on a couple of these. I mean thinking back, uh, at. And, and, and the reason I ask I, only because of the Sheriff’s Office Policy. I just, I just want us to it’s only fair to remind you that you know I mean hey, if we, if we, if I just did somethin’ I left somethin’ in the Office that’s one thing that type thing. Yeah. It’s not like any of this actually was lost. Right. I mean it was recovered, uh, it was turned over. It was put into Property later and that type a thing so I mean if that’s the issue that’s the issue that we’re dealing with so. Well, uh, I mean I, yes, it, it. I mean I did this, right, yeah, I screwed up over it.

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Investigator: Sgt. B. Licking, S1122/Sgt. C. Morrison, S1509 Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #0982 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: April 15, 2011/1420 hours Page 10 of 22

MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 And, uh, if I made I know that sometimes I would ‘cause my, uh, my office wasn’t the best clean or organized ‘cause I had stuff scattered all over. And if I would be working on a case I cou- you know I wouldn’t I couldn’t find my, uh, like working copy so the original that I would have then I would make another copy and bring it into the office and start working from that knowing that I mean that up in, in, in the future I would put my original or send it over to, to, uh, to Property and Evidence impound it. Yeah, I dragged my feet you know, uh, procrastinated. I screwed up you know. LICKING: Okay. And, and, uh, you know Cory and I are sure not here to point fingers or anything. Um hum. I mean if you were to go down to my office, I’ve got boxes and boxes of this, this particular case we’re talkin’ about. Yeah. So I understand about havin’ a lotta stuff spread out, things happen so. Yeah, right. I just happened in this particular case you know people came in later and like wow, here’s a bunch of stuff and then they had to go through and itemize things and before they turned it over… Right. …to like be reassigned or.

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080

ROJAS:

But I thought, I’m pretty sure that there was a box of, uh, uh, uh, CDs and stuff like that that I’m. (Sigh) I’m pretty certain that I told Sergeant Lugo, I pointed it out to him… Okay. …you know for the oncoming, uh, detective. Sure, when he was comin’ back in. And showed him the, and showed him the files… Okay. …of all the, the working cases that we’re still you workin’. And then, uh, the pending ones and then the, uh, uh, the ones that were going to, to court at that time and then the completed ones and, uh, the completed cases. And I’m pretty certain that I showed him you know in, in my cabinet file that the CD’s or the recorded copies that were pertained to certain files. Right. And then. So at least whoever was taking over knew where you were at, which case? Right. And, and I informed him I didn’t know that whoever was gonna replace me that’s, uh, where it was at.

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 LICKING: Okay. Alright. Um, obviously, one of the questions that they would have us ask is what would have been the proper procedure for the items of evidence in your office? Well, the proper procedure I mean if, uh, make your copy you know that you made and then send or forward impound the, uh, your evidence to for, uh, you know it’s evidence! Right. You know and put it away. I mean that’s (chuckle), uh, like I said I, I procrastinated tryin’ to, ‘cause you know workin’ Special Victims Unit is it was, it was a, it’s, it’s a type of unit where you got a lot of, lot of fires popping up everywhere. And you’re going to work a case. You do it. You, you did what, what was important at that time the investigation. Bring your stuff into the office. All of a sudden you get another fire. I said, uh, I’ll work here. I’ll set this aside and get to it little as soon as I get a, a chance or an opportunity. Go over and take and, uh, take care of that other fire that popped up. Same time be another one that popped up. Within time you start writing you know you, you start catching up writing your supplemental reports, uh, put your evidence your, your recordings away knowing that that stuff needs to go to Property and Evidence. And I know that at times I didn’t have, uh, well, time to to to do that so what I did is when I sent my case to, to, uh, to the County Attorney’s Office and what I would do is I would take my, uh, originals to if I had, if I had them with me my original copies to Property and Evidence. LICKING: Okay.

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 ROJAS: LICKING: ROJAS: LICKING: You know just to know that they would be there in case… Sure. …the County Attorney. And just from reading, reading the case I mean, obliviously, you had El Mirage at the same time and they were a contract city… Oh, yeah. …and got priority and things like that so. Yeah, I mean I can certainly understand that as well. Um hum. Havin’ all those different and you guys were constantly getting called out. Oh, man, I was gettin’ called out quite a bit because of Spanish speaking. At that time I was the only Spanish speaker in the unit and I would get called out 2 or 3 in. Even if I wasn’t on call… Um hum. …you know I would be called out. I was getting burned out. I mean at seven and a seven coming up on eight years I was already, uh, (chuckle) well, uh, I guess you might say a ticking tom or a bomb. Right.

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Investigator: Sgt. B. Licking, S1122/Sgt. C. Morrison, S1509 Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #0982 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: April 15, 2011/1420 hours Page 14 of 22

MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 ROJAS: Uh, I was readin’ an article, uh, a couple years back where the average time for a Special Victims Unit Detective where we investigate child abuse and child crimes the average is two years and I was way over my,… Sure. …my time so. I certainly don’t blame you there. I, I can’t imagine. And I never did that particular one. We would help out occasionally but I couldn’t imagine gettin’ called out specifically for that so. Right. And then sometimes I get called out for, um, assist arson and, uh, homicide. Yeah, pretty much anything that GID had… Yeah. …and needs help at that point. Okay. Right. Um, Cory, did you have anything right now?

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MORRISON: No. LICKING: Okay. What we’re gonna do is I’m just gonna take a five minute break tops, go talk to the Lieutenant real quick and I’ll be right back. Okay.

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080

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So do you need any more water or anything? No, I’m fine. Okay. Alright. Um, time out is right at 3:00.

MORRISON: Alright. (Long pause) LICKING: ROJAS: LICKING: Alrighty, uh, time back in right at about 3:01, I guess. Hum. Um, you know I don’t really have too much else case wise so, um, these were some of the Policies that, uh, that got brought up so I’ll just read a couple of these. Basically, these were the same ones that were in the Notice of Investigation. Um, you know just kinda go over those real, real quick and, um, they’re all out of CP2, which is obviously the Code of Conduct. Um hum. Um, the first one is 2.1A, uh, it says, uh, Conformance to Office Directives and Established Laws. A says employees shall conform to the provisions of all, uh, written Policy except those to be found unlawful, incorrect or inapplicable. Violation of written Policy with or without, um, articulateable justification may result in disciplinary action. Um, I mean knowing what Policy says about certain things, do you feel that you had vio- violated that Policy?

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 ROJAS: Yeah, I think I did I guess. I mean I, I wasn’t prompt with my actions and knowing and with the experience that I have, um, and handling of you know my case management that’s one of the priority things. You need to secure you know your evidence that you have and CD’s, well whatever, recordings. It’s evidence. And, uh, I just, like I said, I mean fires popping’ everywhere. Yeah, I violated it… Okay. …you know. Um, and, and some of these are gonna sound like duplicates so, um, the next one is, uh, CP-2.11F. Uh, 11 is, uh, Performance or Dereliction of Duty and F, specifically, says employees are derelict in the performance of their duties, uh, when they willfully or negligently fail to perform them or when they perform them in a grossly inefficient manner. When the failure is with full knowledge of the duty and an intention not to perform it, the omission is willful. When the nonperformance is the lack of ordinary care, the omission is negligent. Would you, would you think that you had violated that as well? Yeah, my acts were negligent. They certainly weren’t intentional but,... Alright. …uh, they were. But just because of, uh, low manpower, ton of case loads and things like that? That’s the thing. I mean we were, we were over worked. Right. And you know that’s what, that’s what I keep reading every time I you

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 know everybody kept talkin’ about you know you guys kept gettin’ pulled for this detail that detail, plus all the El Mirage stuff and what not so. ROJAS: Yeah. I mean if I may also mention I mean the times when we were pulled out, uh, to do other work from other, uh, other units outside of GID. Oh, okay. You know. So you were helpin’ out the Districts, too or? Well, no, we were helpin’ like, um, what was that? The, um, when they were doin’ you know all the, uh, the univer- the colleges they were doin’ the search warrants? Right, the Rio Salado stuff? Yeah, the Rio Salado stuff… Right. …I mean we were, we were bombarded with all this stuff, took us away from all our cases. And we yeah, we complained, we griped you know we voiced our opinions about that. Listen, our case load is suffering. Why are we being pulled away you know to do this other stuff? Right. And then I mean that that.

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 LICKING: ROJAS: LICKING: It’s hard to keep on task when you’re bein’ pulled 20 different directions. Yeah. I, I can understand that. Um, then next one is, uh, CP-2.29, um, B4. Uh, 29 says it’s, uh, Incompetence or Failure to Meet Standards. Uh, B is incompetence may be, uh, demonstrated by the following and then four says, uh, failure to make reasonable decisions or take appropriate actions. Do you think that that was a violation of that? Well, I think I made reasonable decisions but I just didn’t, uh, take the appropriate action as required. Okay, okay, that’s fair. Um, and then the last one, uh, CP-2.33B, um, like I said, some of these are kinda sound like, uh, they’re redundancy. Thirty-three (33) says, A- Abuse of Process, Withholding Evidence and Misappropriation of Property. And B says employees shall secure all items of evidence in designated Property lockers or other authorized secure areas as soon as possible. Employees shall not leave, uh, evidence in vehicles, in personal lockers or in or on desks or in other areas in which it may be subjected to possible tampering or theft. Uh, contraband should also be placed promptly in an appropriate location pending destruction and/or disposition. So, um, do you think that that had been violated by your actions? Yeah, I mean I didn’t put it in you know the Sheriff’s Office Property and Evidence, uh, section. Uh, every time I mean I, I, I went to left the office I locked my door. Right.

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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 ROJAS: LICKING: ROJAS: LICKING: ROJAS: LICKING: Uh, my cabinet was I mean stored everything in there. Um hum. Uh, but still you know I know that it, it should have. Gone over to Property and Evidence (unintel 23:43)? Yeah. Okay. Alright. Um, and like I said, it’s not our job to point fingers or anything like that. Uh, one thing that you’re entitled to and I think we kinda talked about this the other day on the phone was, um, I don’t wanna put any words in anybody’s mouth or anything like that so if there was somethin’ I said that you would like to clarify or somethin’ that you said that you would like to either clarify or expound on or whatever, um, I’m pretty much at the end. Did you have anything else?

MORRISON: No. LICKING: Okay. Um, you’ve got five minutes and we’ll just turn the floor over to you and you know you can make whatever. I mean if you wanna, like I said, I don’t wanna put any words in your mouth but if you wanna make a statement you can;… Um hum …if you don’t want to, you don’t have to. Well, you know there’s not really much to, to, to say. I mean what I did I did it, even though it wasn’t my intention to, to keep you know the so called, uh, evidence. Not so called, I mean it’s there. But even though some of them, like I

ROJAS: LICKING: ROJAS:

Investigator: Sgt. B. Licking, S1122/Sgt. C. Morrison, S1509 Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #0982 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: April 15, 2011/1420 hours Page 20 of 22

MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 said, and they some of them were marked copies because they were working copies and I know that some of the originals that were there were also working copies. LICKING: ROJAS: Okay. Uh, we got some like from Child Health they put down original; they gave us two copies, alright? Gotcha. And they were both marked; it was mine and theirs and they were both original. The original, whichever theirs or, or, or, or mine would be forwarded to, to Property and Evidence. The other one, even though it said original would, would be the working copy and maybe I should have written on it. Another thing is, yeah, based on I mean my experience, um, that the time that I had there and as a investigator, um, yeah, I should have acted promptly but certainly was not my intention to withhold all this evidence that from you know send it or forward to or to secure it. Um, I just dragged my feet. I, like I said, I just procrastinated on this and, uh, because of all the fires that were popping’ up all the time and then pulling away from, um, main duties and perform other tasks, we were, we were stressed out. We were over loaded you know with our work. Um, being transferred back to District II patrol or to patrol was you know was a great thing for me. It’s, uh, yeah, I do miss investigations. I enjoyed it. But at this point at this junction in my career it’s time to take a different venue or you know road. Uh, I mean I, I regret not taking the prompt you know taking that action that I should have. It’s done. Learn from it and continue on you know. Let it, let I mean what else can I say? Sure. Okay. Uh, anything else?

LICKING: ROJAS:

LICKING:

Investigator: Sgt. B. Licking, S1122/Sgt. C. Morrison, S1509 Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #0982 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: April 15, 2011/1420 hours Page 21 of 22

MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE Internal Affairs Division IA # 08-0080 ROJAS: LICKING: No, that’s it. Okay. Alright. Um, we’re pretty much done. Uh, time out will be, uh, about, uh, 3:10.

MORRISON: I’ll go get the recording. ROJAS: LICKING: Are we done? Right.

Investigator: Sgt. B. Licking, S1122/Sgt. C. Morrison, S1509 Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #0982 Typed by: A9998 Date/Time: April 15, 2011/1420 hours Page 22 of 22

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