Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60

Filed 11/19/12 Page 1 of 26 Page ID #:897

1 JOSEPH J. LEVIN, JR. (Pro Hac Vice) joe.levin@splcenter.org 2 CHRISTINE P. SUN (SBN 218701) christine.sun@splcenter.org 3 CAREN E. SHORT (Pro Hac Vice) caren.short@splcenter.org 4 SOUTHERN POVERTY LAW CENTER 400 Washington Avenue 5 Montgomery, AL 36104 Telephone: (334) 956-8200 6 Facsimile: (334) 956-8481 7 (Caption Continued on Next Page) 8 9 10
350 South Grand Avenue, Suite 2100 Los Angeles, CA 90071

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT CENTRAL DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA WESTERN DIVISION ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) No. CV12-887 CBM (AJWx)

11 TRACEY COOPER-HARRIS and 12 MAGGIE COOPER-HARRIS 13 14 15 16 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA; ERIC H. HOLDER, JR., in his official 17 capacity as Attorney General; and 18 ERIC K. SHINSEKI, in his official capacity as Secretary of Veterans 19 Affairs, 20 21 22 BIPARTISAN LEGAL ADVISORY GROUP OF THE U.S. HOUSE 23 OF REPRESENTATIVES, 24 Intervenor-Defendant. 25 26 27 28 Defendants, vs. Plaintiffs,

PLAINTIFFS’ MEMORANDUM OF LAW IN OPPOSITION TO INTERVENOR-DEFENDANT’S MOTION TO EXCLUDE THE EXPERT TESTIMONY OF DR. LAWRENCE J. KORB AND MAJ. GEN. (RET.) DENNIS LAICH

WilmerHale

Hearing: December 10, 2012 Time: 10:00 a.m. Hon. Consuelo B. Marshall

CASE NO. CV 12-887-CBM (AJWX)

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60

Filed 11/19/12 Page 2 of 26 Page ID #:898

1 Randall R. Lee (SBN 152672) randall.lee@wilmerhale.com 2 Matthew Benedetto (SBN 252379) matthew.benedetto@wilmerhale.com 3 WILMER CUTLER PICKERING HALE AND DORR LLP 350 South Grand Avenue, Suite 2100 4 Los Angeles, CA 90071 Telephone: (213) 443-5300 5 Facsimile: (213) 443-5400 6 Adam P. Romero (Pro Hac Vice) adam.romero@wilmerhale.com 7 Rubina Ali (Pro Hac Vice pending) rubina.ali@wilmerhale.com 8 WILMER CUTLER PICKERING HALE AND DORR LLP 7 World Trade Center 9 New York, NY 10007 Telephone: (212) 230-8800 10 Facsimile: (212) 230-8888
350 South Grand Avenue, Suite 2100 Los Angeles, CA 90071

11 Eugene Marder (SBN 275762) eugene.marder@wilmerhale.com 12 WILMER CUTLER PICKERING HALE AND DORR LLP 950 Page Mill Road 13 Palo Alto, California 94304 Telephone: (650) 858-6000 14 Facsimile: (650) 858-6100 15 Attorneys for Plaintiffs 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 CASE NO. CV 12-887-CBM (AJWX)
ii

WilmerHale

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60

Filed 11/19/12 Page 3 of 26 Page ID #:899

1 2 3 I. 4 II. 5 6 7 8 9 10 11
350 South Grand Avenue, Suite 2100 Los Angeles, CA 90071

TABLE OF CONTENTS Page(s) INTRODUCTION ................................................................................................ 1 FACTUAL BACKGROUND .............................................................................. 2 A. B. III. Lawrence J. Korb, Ph.D. ............................................................................ 2 Major General (Ret.) Dennis Laich............................................................ 5

ARGUMENT........................................................................................................ 8 A. B. C. FRE 702 Is Properly Construed Liberally To Permit Expert Testimony Based on Non-Scientific Specialized Knowledge ................... 8 Dr. Korb and General Laich Are Highly Qualified Experts .................... 10 Dr. Korb’s and General Laich’s Opinions Will Assist the Trier-OfFact Because Their Unchallenged Experience With The United States Military Bears Directly On The Issues In This Case .................... 11 1. Dr. Korb’s and General Laich’s Opinions Are Borne of Specific Military Experience That Exceeds The Common Knowledge Of The Average Layman ............................................. 12 The Reliability of Dr. Korb’s and General Laich’s Proffered Opinions Do Not—And Need Not—Depend On Quantifiable Data ................................................................................................. 15 Dr. Korb and General Laich’s Proffered Testimony Is Amply Supported By Broad-based Experience with Military Personnel ......................................................................................... 16 BLAG’s Remaining Arguments Are Misplaced ............................. 18

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 IV. 24 25 26 27 28

WilmerHale

2.

3.

4.

CONCLUSION .................................................................................................. 19

CASE NO. CV 12-887-CBM (AJWX)
iii

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60

Filed 11/19/12 Page 4 of 26 Page ID #:900

1 2 3 Cases

TABLE OF CONTENTS Page(s)

4 Arjangrad v. JPMorgan Chase Bank, No. 3:10-cv-01157, 2012 WL 1890372 (D. Or. 5 May 23, 2012) ........................................................................................................... 13

6 Daubert v. Merrell Dow Pharms., Inc., 509 U.S. 579 (1993) .................................... 8, 9 7 Domingo v. T.K., 289 F.3d 600 (9th Cir. 2002)............................................................ 17 8 Goldman v. Weinberger, 475 U.S. 503 (1986) ............................................................. 12 9 Hangarter v. Provident Life and Acc. Ins. Co., 373 F.3d 998 (9th Cir. 2004) ............. 13 10 Kumho Tire Co. v. Carmichael, 526 U.S. 137 (1999) .................................................... 8 11 Log Cabin Republicans v United States, 716 F. Supp. 2d. 884 (C.D. Cal. 2010) ............
350 South Grand Avenue, Suite 2100 Los Angeles, CA 90071

12

..................................................................................................................... 3, 4, 14, 15

13 Log Cabin Republicans v United States, Minute Order, No. 2:04-cv-08425-VAP (C.D. 14 Cal. July 01, 2010) ............................................................................................ 2, 3, 14

WilmerHale

15 McCollen v. UPS Ground Freight Inc., No. 11-cv-0961, 2012 WL 3758837 (D. Ariz. 16 Aug. 30, 2012) ........................................................................................................... 13

17 Mueller v. Auker, No. 04-civ-399, 2010 WL 2265867 ( D. Idaho Feb. 13, 2012)....... 13 18 Rondor Music Int’l Inc. v. TVT Records LLC, No. 05-cv-2909, 2012 WL 5105272 19 (C.D. Cal. Aug. 21, 2006) ......................................................................................... 16

20 Scott v. Ross, 140 F.3d 1275 (9th Cir. 1998) .................................................... 10, 16, 17 21 Swendsen v. Corey, No. 4:09-cv-00229, 2012 WL 465722 (D. Idaho Feb. 13, 2012) 13 22 Thomas v. Newton Int’l Enterprises, 42 F.3d 1266 (9th Cir. 1994) ............................. 10 23 United States v. Abonce-Barrera, 257 F.3d 959 (9th Cir. 2001).................................. 10 24 United States v. Brownlee, 454 F.3d 131 (3d Cir. 2006).............................................. 15 25 United States v. Dailide, 227 F.3d 385 (6th Cir. 2000) ................................................ 16 26 United States v. Hankey, 203 F.3d 1160 (9th Cir. 2000)....................................... passim 27 United States v. Hanna, 293 F.3d 1080 (9th Cir. 2002) ............................................... 13 28 United States v. Plunk, 153 F.3d 1011 (9th Cir. 1998)................................................. 13 CASE NO. CV 12-887-CBM (AJWX)
iv

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60

Filed 11/19/12 Page 5 of 26 Page ID #:901

1 Vatayan v. Mukasey, 508 F.3d 1179 (9th Cir. 2007) .................................................... 10 2 Volk v. United States, 57 F. Supp. 2d 888 (N.D. Cal. 1999) .......................................... 9 3 White v. Ford Motor Co., 312 F.3d 998 (9th Cir. 2002) .............................................. 13 4 Witt v. U.S. Dept. of Air Force, 739 F. Supp. 2d 1308 (W.D. Wash. 2010) ............ 7, 15 5 Statutes 6 1 U.S.C. § 7 ............................................................................................................ passim 7 38 U.S.C. §§ 101(3) & (31) ................................................................................... passim 8 Rules 9 Fed. R. Evid. 702 .................................................................................................. 8, 9, 10 10 11
350 South Grand Avenue, Suite 2100 Los Angeles, CA 90071

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 CASE NO. CV 12-887-CBM (AJWX)
v

WilmerHale

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60

Filed 11/19/12 Page 6 of 26 Page ID #:902

1 I. 2

INTRODUCTION By this action, a disabled and decorated United States Army veteran, Tracey

3 Cooper-Harris, and her same-sex spouse, Maggie Cooper-Harris (collectively, 4 “Plaintiffs”), seek recognition by the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs (“VA”) of 5 their lawful marriage so that they may receive the same benefits afforded to other 6 married veterans and their spouses. Specifically, Plaintiffs challenge the 7 constitutionality of 38 U.S.C. §§ 101(3) & (31) (“Title 38”) and section 3 of 1 U.S.C. 8 § 7 (“Defense of Marriage Act” or “DOMA”), which forbid the federal government 9 from recognizing same-sex marriages and which separately bar Plaintiffs from 10 receiving benefits that similarly-situated heterosexual married veterans and their 11 spouses routinely receive.
350 South Grand Avenue, Suite 2100 Los Angeles, CA 90071

12

Intervenor-Defendant Bipartisan Legal Advisory Group of the U.S. House of

13 Representatives (“BLAG”) has moved to exclude the reports and testimony of two of 14 Plaintiffs’ expert witnesses—Dr. Lawrence Korb and General Dennis Laich.1 Dr. 15 Korb and General Laich offer highly probative and specialized evidence related to a 16 central issue in this action—the adverse impact of Title 38 and DOMA on the 17 military. Both men have devoted their careers to the military, and, more importantly, 18 both are experts on the issues of recruitment and retention of servicemembers, unit 19 cohesion among servicemembers, and military readiness. Dr. Korb was Assistant 20 Secretary of Defense in the Reagan Administration and was in charge of logistics and 21 manpower, having specific responsibility for ensuring that the military attracted and 22 retained high-quality recruits by safeguarding military pay and benefits. General 23 Laich spent over three decades in the United States Army, ultimately rising to the rank 24 of Major General with as many as 5,000 soldiers under his command. Both have 25 previously testified as experts in federal court cases challenging discriminatory 26 27
BLAG incorrectly states that plaintiffs have offered six experts. See ECF No. 56 at 2 & n.1. In addition to Dr. Korb and General Laich, who are the subject of BLAG’s motion to exclude, 28 Plaintiffs have offered five non-military expert witnesses—Professors George Chauncey, Nancy Cott, Michael Lamb, Letitia Anne Peplau, and Gary Segura.
1

WilmerHale

CASE NO. CV 12-887-CBM (AJWX)
1

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60

Filed 11/19/12 Page 7 of 26 Page ID #:903

1 policies and their impact on our nation’s military. In fact, in Log Cabin Republicans 2 v. United States, a case addressing the adverse impact of the now-abrogated “Don’t 3 Ask, Don’t Tell” policy on military personnel and the military’s logistical needs, the 4 district court denied a motion to exclude expert testimony by Dr. Korb. See Minute 5 Order at 2-3, Log Cabin Republicans v. United States, No. 2:04-cv-08425-VAP (C.D. 6 Cal. July 01, 2010) (ECF No. 210). 7 Nonetheless, BLAG argues that Dr. Korb’s and General Laich’s proffered

8 opinions are “no different from what any layperson could opine” regarding “any 9 employment situation.” ECF No. 56 at 8. As explained below, this is plainly 10 untenable as a matter of fact and law. Accordingly, BLAG’s motion should be 11 denied.
350 South Grand Avenue, Suite 2100 Los Angeles, CA 90071

12 II. 13

FACTUAL BACKGROUND The qualifications and proffered testimony of Dr. Korb and General Laich are

14 summarized as follows: 15 16 A. Lawrence J. Korb, Ph.D.

WilmerHale

Dr. Korb is currently a Senior Fellow at the Center for American Progress, a

17 senior advisor to the Center for Defense Information, and an adjunct professor at 18 Georgetown University. (Ex. A at 1 (CV of Dr. Korb).) Dr. Korb served as Assistant 19 Secretary of Defense for Manpower, Reserve Affairs, Installations, and Logistics from 20 1981 through 1985. (Id.) In this position, he was responsible for administering 21 approximately seventy percent of the defense budget of the United States. (Id.) He 22 was awarded the Department of Defense’s Medal for Distinguished Public Service for 23 his performance. (Id.) 24 Dr. Korb is also a military veteran, having served on active duty for four years

25 as Naval Flight Officer and retired from the Naval Reserve with the rank of captain. 26 (Id. at 1-2.) 27 28 CASE NO. CV 12-887-CBM (AJWX)
2

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60

Filed 11/19/12 Page 8 of 26 Page ID #:904

1

Dr. Korb received his Ph.D. in Political Science from the State University of

2 New York at Albany and has held full-time teaching positions at the University of 3 Dayton, the Coast Guard Academy, and the Naval War College. (Id. at 2.) 4 Dr. Korb has authored, co-authored, edited, or contributed to more than twenty

5 books and written more than 100 articles on issues related to national defense and the 6 treatment of America’s military veterans. (Id.) His books include The Fall and Rise 7 of the Pentagon: American Defense Policies in the 1970’s (1979); American National 8 Security: Policy and Process (4th ed. 1993); Future Visions for U.S. Defense Policy: 9 Four Alternatives Presented as Presidential Speeches (1998); Reshaping America’s 10 Military: Four Alternatives Presented as Presidential Speeches (2002); A New 11 National Security Strategy in an Age of Terrorists, Tyrants, and Weapons of Mass
350 South Grand Avenue, Suite 2100 Los Angeles, CA 90071

12 Destruction: Three Options Presented as Presidential Speeches (2003); Serving 13 America’s Veterans: A Reference Handbook (2009); and Military Reform: An Uneven 14 History and an Uncertain Future (2009). (Id.; Ex. B (Bibliography of Dr. Korb).) 15 Dr. Korb has also held positions as Vice President, Director of Studies, and

WilmerHale

16 Maurice Greenberg Chair of the Council on Foreign Relations—a highly selective, 17 elected position. (Ex. A at 1; Ex. D at 95:19 – 97:16 (excerpts from transcript of 18 deposition of Dr. Korb) (hereinafter, “Korb Depo.”).) Before that, he was Director of 19 the Center for Public Policy Education, Dean of the Graduate School of Public and 20 International Affairs at the University of Pittsburgh, Vice President of Corporate 21 Operations at the Raytheon Company (a defense contractor), and Director of Defense 22 Studies at the American Enterprise Institute. (Ex. A at 1.) Dr. Korb has also served 23 on the Board of Directors of United Service Organizations (“USO”), which provides 24 programs and service for troops and their families. (Korb Depo. at 94:22 – 95:18.) 25 Dr. Korb served and was qualified as an expert for the plaintiff in Log Cabin

26 Republicans v. United States, in which he provided testimony similar to that proffered 27 now. See Minute Order at 2-3, No. 2:04-cv-08425-VAP (C.D. Cal. July 01, 2010) 28 (ECF No. 210) (denying motion to exclude Dr. Korb’s testimony); see also 716 F. CASE NO. CV 12-887-CBM (AJWX)
3

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60

Filed 11/19/12 Page 9 of 26 Page ID #:905

1 Supp. 2d. 884, 916-917 (C.D. Cal. 2010) (discussing Dr. Korb’s expert testimony, and 2 stating that “Dr. Lawrence Korb, currently a senior fellow at the Center for American 3 Progress, [has] an extraordinary background in military preparedness and national 4 security issues, including an appointment under President Ronald Reagan as an 5 Assistant Secretary in the Department of Defense . . . .”). 6  Based on the foregoing as well as the studies cited in his report (see Ex. C

7 (studies cited in Korb Report)), Dr. Korb’s proffers the following expert opinions: 8 9 10 11
350 South Grand Avenue, Suite 2100 Los Angeles, CA 90071

The definition of “spouse” and “surviving spouse” in Title 38 as well as DOMA are in direct conflict with the governmental purposes underpinning the enactment of veterans’ benefit laws.

Each branch of government has recognized that benefits for service members’ family members are essential to a strong all-volunteer army. The armed forces leadership has decided that provision of these benefits to service members and their families is necessary to ensure military readiness and encourage service members to choose the military for a lifelong career. Congress has agreed and established these benefits schemes.

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28   

WilmerHale

Congress has long regarded the spousal benefits provided under Title 38 as important incentives for service and reenlistment that recognize the sacrifices that military families must make while improving morale and providing reassurance to service members that their families will be supported and compensated for their service. In addition, service members’ performance is affected by their knowledge that family members and spouses will be compensated and cared for should the service member suffer a disabling injury. Strong benefits programs and family support groups therefore ensure peace of mind and maintain military readiness. Denying benefits to spouses of gay and lesbian veterans, and them alone, frustrates the clear purpose of these Congressionally-created veterans’ benefits: CASE NO. CV 12-887-CBM (AJWX)
4

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60

Filed 11/19/12 Page 10 of 26 Page ID #:906

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11
350 South Grand Avenue, Suite 2100 Los Angeles, CA 90071

to compensate disabled veterans for their decreased ability to earn a living and support their families.  Years of military experience have shown these benefits for service members and families to be essential to the proper functioning of the armed forces by ensuring that our men and women in uniform are capable of serving at their maximum potential. Denying these benefits to some service members diminishes military readiness and the effectiveness of the armed services by compromising their ability to focus on the singular task before them.  Recruitment and retention of armed forces personnel, another major goal of strong veterans’ benefits, is also harmed by continued denial of these benefits to individuals on the basis of sexual orientation and gender. These important benefits are crucial incentives for able service members to join and remain in the military; their denial to some service members thereby deprives the armed services of an important tool.  Recruitment and retention is harmed because this practice signals to young people considering enlisting that the military is an intolerant, archaic institution. Title 38 and DOMA are contrary to the stated military values of diversity, fairness, equality, and meritocracy.  Military cohesion also suffers due to the creation of a two-tiered structure that requires the armed forces to treat service members differently, even though the different treatment has no relation to their performance.

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21

WilmerHale

22 (Ex. B to ECF No. 56 (Expert Report of Dr. Korb) (hereinafter, “Korb Report”) ¶¶ 12, 23 16, 18, 21, 25, 27-30.) 24 25 B. Major General (Ret.) Dennis Laich

General Laich served in the United States Army for thirty-five years, retiring in

26 2006. (Ex. A to ECF No. 56 (Expert Report of General Laich) (hereinafter, “Laich 27 Report”) ¶ 3; Ex. E (CV of General Laich).) During the last fourteen of those years, 28 General Laich served in command positions as a Colonel, Brigadier General, and CASE NO. CV 12-887-CBM (AJWX)
5

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60

Filed 11/19/12 Page 11 of 26 Page ID #:907

1 Major General with as many as 5,000 troops under his command. (Laich Report ¶ 3.) 2 In addition, General Laich served in a broad range of staff assignments primarily in 3 personnel/administration, logistics, and as an inspector general. (Id.) General Laich 4 has first-hand experience shaping and implementing Department of Defense policies 5 designed to enhance recruiting, retention, and readiness. (Ex. F at 41:18-22 (excerpts 6 from transcript of deposition of General Laich) (hereinafter, “Laich Depo.”).) He was 7 highly decorated in the military and has received military awards such as the Defense 8 Distinguished Service Medal, the Legion of Merit, and the Meritorious Service Medal. 9 (Laich Report ¶ 6.) 10 In addition to his extensive experience in the Army, General Laich is a graduate

11 of the Army Command and General Staff College, the National Security Management
350 South Grand Avenue, Suite 2100 Los Angeles, CA 90071

12 Program, and the Logistics Executive Development Program. (Id. ¶ 4.) He is also a 13 graduate of the Army War College, a senior institution of education to which only 14 lieutenant colonels and full colonels are eligible for admission. (Id.) The curricula of 15 the Army War College addresses, among other things, so-called “manning the force” 16 and allocating resources to “man the force” at the senior policy making and execution 17 level. (Laich Depo. at 105-106.) He is also a graduate of the Program for Senior 18 Executives in National and International Security at the John F. Kennedy School of 19 Government at Harvard University. (Laich Report ¶ 6.) He holds two master’s 20 degrees: a Master’s in Business Administration from West Virginia University and a 21 Master’s of Arts in Labor Relations from St. Francis University. (Id.) General Laich 22 earned an undergraduate degree in political science from Lafayette College. (Id.) 23 Currently, General Laich serves as the director of the Patriots Program at Ohio

WilmerHale

24 Dominican University—a program designed to encourage veterans to take advantage 25 of their G.I. Bill educational benefits, a role in which General Laich is in regular 26 contact with veterans as concerning their benefits. (Id. ¶ 5; Laich Depo at 31:12-25.) 27 In the past ten years, General Laich has co-authored an essay, several op-eds,

28 and numerous web log posts on military issues. (Laich Report ¶ 9.) In addition, CASE NO. CV 12-887-CBM (AJWX)
6

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60

Filed 11/19/12 Page 12 of 26 Page ID #:908

1 General Laich is currently writing a book entitled Skin in the Game, which is about the 2 all-volunteer military. (Id.) 3 General Laich served as an expert in Witt v. U.S. Dept. of Air Force, in which

4 his testimony related to issues concerning policies that affected gay and lesbian 5 personnel in the military. (Id. ¶ 8; see generally 739 F. Supp. 2d 1308 (W.D. Wash. 6 2010) (holding that application of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell policy to plaintiff violated 7 substantive due process).) 8  Based on the foregoing, General Laich proffers the following expert summary

9 opinions: 10 11
350 South Grand Avenue, Suite 2100 Los Angeles, CA 90071

Denying benefits to servicemembers and their spouses who are in legal samesex marriages is detrimental to an already strained military by discriminating against current and potential servicemembers, thus discouraging the enlistment of capable soldiers, sailors, airmen, Coast Guardsmen, and Marines.

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25  

Discriminating against servicemembers and their spouses who are in legal same-sex marriages harms military recruitment, retention, and readiness by discouraging potential recruits; decreasing the likelihood that existing servicemembers will re-enlist; destroying the peace of mind servicemembers require to complete their mission; disturbing the cohesion of military units; weakening the military’s credibility and integrity; and diminishing the positive impact of the repeal of “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell.” Defining “spouse” and “surviving spouse” as “a person of the opposite sex who is a wife or a husband” in Title 38 and restricting federal benefits dependent on marriage to those “between one man and one woman as husband and wife” pursuant to Section 3 of DOMA is harmful to the military and confers no benefit to the military.

WilmerHale

26 (Laich Report ¶¶ 10-12.) 27 28 CASE NO. CV 12-887-CBM (AJWX)
7

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60

Filed 11/19/12 Page 13 of 26 Page ID #:909

1 III. 2 3 4

ARGUMENT A. FRE 702 Is Properly Construed Liberally To Permit Expert Testimony Based on Non-Scientific Specialized Knowledge

Under Federal Rule of Evidence 702, “[a] witness who is qualified as expert by

5 knowledge, skill, experience, training, or education may testify in the form of an 6 opinion or otherwise if (a) the expert’s specialized knowledge will assist the trier-of7 fact to understand the evidence or determine a fact in issue; (b) the testimony is based 8 on sufficient facts or data; (c) the testimony is the product of reliable principles and 9 methods; and (d) the expert has reliably applied the principles and methods to the facts 10 of the case.” Fed. R. Evid. 702. Rule 702 is to be liberally construed. See Daubert 11 v. Merrell Dow Pharms., Inc., 509 U.S. 579, 588 (1993) (explaining that Rule 702 is a
350 South Grand Avenue, Suite 2100 Los Angeles, CA 90071

12 function of the “liberal thrust” of the Federal Rules of Evidence that “relax[ed] the 13 traditional barriers to opinion testimony” (internal quotation marks omitted)). 14 Although the proponent of expert testimony bears the burden of establishing by 15 a preponderance of the evidence that the testimony is admissible, “the rejection of 16 expert testimony is the exception rather than the rule.” Fed. R. Evid. 702 advisory 17 committee’s note. The post-Daubert amendment to Rule 702 is “not intended to 18 provide an excuse for an automatic challenge to the testimony of every expert.” Id. 19 In Daubert, the Supreme Court held that Rule 702 imposes a “gatekeeping” 20 obligation on trial courts to “ensure that any and all scientific testimony . . . is not only 21 relevant, but reliable.” Id. at 589. Following Daubert, in Kumho Tire Co. v. 22 Carmichael, 526 U.S. 137, 152 (1999), the Supreme Court emphasized that trial 23 courts have broad discretion not only with respect to whether to admit expert 24 testimony but also “how to test an expert’s reliability.” See also United States v. 25 Hankey, 203 F.3d 1160, 1168 (9th Cir. 2000). 26 Thus, while Daubert identified a number of factors to consider when testing the 27 reliability of scientific testimony, “[t]he Daubert factors were not intended to be 28 exhaustive nor to apply in every case.” Hankey, 203 F.3d at 1168 (citing Kumho Tire, CASE NO. CV 12-887-CBM (AJWX)
8

WilmerHale

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60

Filed 11/19/12 Page 14 of 26 Page ID #:910

1 526 U.S. at 156). Indeed, as the Ninth Circuit has repeatedly held, “[t]he Daubert 2 factors (peer review, publication, potential error rate, etc.) simply are not applicable to 3 [certain] kind of testimony, whose reliability depends heavily on the knowledge and 4 experience of the expert, rather than the methodology or theory behind it.” Id.; accord 5 Kumho Tire, 526 U.S. at 156 (“[N]o one denies that an expert might draw a 6 conclusion from a set of observations based on extensive and specialized 7 experience.”).2 8 Accordingly, admissibility of expert testimony “generally turns on the  Whether the opinion is based on scientific, technical, or other specialized knowledge;  Whether the expert’s opinion would assist the trier-of-fact in understanding the evidence or determining a fact in issue;  Whether the expert has appropriate qualifications—i.e., some special knowledge, skill, experience, training or education on that subject matter.  Whether the testimony is relevant and reliable.  Whether the methodology or technique the expert uses “fits” the conclusions (the expert’s credibility is for the jury).  Whether its probative value is substantially out-weighed by the risk of unfair prejudice, confusion of issues, or undue consumption of time.

9 following preliminary question of law determinations”: 10 11
350 South Grand Avenue, Suite 2100 Los Angeles, CA 90071

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

WilmerHale

23 Hankey, 203 F.3d at 1168 (internal citations omitted). Finally, but importantly, the 24 gatekeeping function is less pressing where the Court sits as trier-of-fact in place of a 25 jury. Volk v. United States, 57 F. Supp. 2d 888, 896 (N.D. Cal. 1999); see also 26 27
The Committee Notes to Rule 702 similarly emphasize that “[t]he text of Rule 702 expressly contemplates that an expert may be qualified on the basis of experience. In certain fields, experience 28 is the predominant, if not sole, basis for a great deal of reliable expert testimony.” Fed. R. Evid. 702 advisory committee’s note.
2

CASE NO. CV 12-887-CBM (AJWX)
9

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60

Filed 11/19/12 Page 15 of 26 Page ID #:911

1 Vatayan v. Mukasey, 508 F.3d 1179, 1187 (9th Cir. 2007) (“The rules of evidence are 2 not ordinarily applied as stringently in bench trials . . . as in jury trials.”). 3 4 B. Dr. Korb and General Laich Are Highly Qualified Experts

Rule 702 “contemplates a broad conception of expert qualifications.” Thomas

5 v. Newton Int’l Enterprises, 42 F.3d 1266, 1269 (9th Cir. 1994). Education in a 6 relevant field, along with years of experience working with the applicable subject 7 matter, provides more than adequate qualification. United States v. Abonce-Barrera, 8 257 F.3d 959, 964-65 (9th Cir. 2001). This is true even if the expert has not studied a 9 particular issue prior to litigation. See, e.g., Scott v. Ross, 140 F.3d 1275, 1286 (9th 10 Cir. 1998) (sociologist permitted to opine on social group she had never studied prior 11 to litigation).
350 South Grand Avenue, Suite 2100 Los Angeles, CA 90071

12

BLAG does not contest that Dr. Korb and General Laich are experts on military

13 recruitment, retention, readiness, and unit cohesion. Dr. Korb’s entire career has been 14 dedicated to national defense and study of military issues. For example, as Assistant 15 Secretary of Defense for Manpower, Reserve Affairs, Installations, and Logistics in 16 the Reagan Administration, Dr. Korb was specifically charged with instituting policies 17 in order for the newly-volunteer military “[to recruit and retain] high-quality people 18 and [to be] ready to carry out its . . . duties.” Korb Depo. at 31:16-20. Since then, 19 Dr. Korb has served in a variety of esteemed academic capacities, studying and 20 opining on issues that affect national security, including veteran benefits. See. e.g., id. 21 at 39:20 – 40:3; 55:8-24; Exs. A, B, C. He has authored, co-authored, edited, or 22 contributed to more than twenty books and written more than 100 articles on issues 23 related to national defense and the treatment of America’s military veterans. See Korb 24 Report ¶ 10; Exs. A, B, C. 25 During his thirty-five year Army career, General Laich rose to the command

WilmerHale

26 positions of Colonel, Brigadier General, and Major General. (Laich Depo. at 25:24 – 27 26:12.) In his final assignment as the commanding general of the 94th Regional 28 Readiness Command at Fort Devens, Massachusetts, General Laich was responsible CASE NO. CV 12-887-CBM (AJWX)
10

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60

Filed 11/19/12 Page 16 of 26 Page ID #:912

1 for approximately 5,000 soldiers across the six New England states. (Id.) In this role, 2 General Laich was responsible for myriad military operations including personnel, 3 discipline, recruiting, retention, and maintenance. (Id. at 110:12 – 20.) As a 4 commanding general, General Laich was involved in the creation and execution of 5 policy related to servicemembers, their benefits, and their well-being—policies 6 intended to enhance recruitment, retention and readiness. (Id. at 18:01 – 25, 41:14 – 7 24.) Since retiring from the Army, General Laich has worked with veterans on 8 benefits issues, including gay and lesbian veterans. (Id. at 23:10-22; 31:12-25.) In 9 addition, General Laich is currently researching and writing a book relating to the 10 implications of the all-volunteer military in modern society. (Laich Report ¶ 9.) 11
350 South Grand Avenue, Suite 2100 Los Angeles, CA 90071

Accordingly, Dr. Korb’s and General Laich’s vast experience and specialized

12 knowledge of the United States military renders them uniquely capable of proffering 13 testimony that will be helpful to the trier-of-fact to understand the adverse impact of 14 Title 38 and DOMA on our nation’s all-volunteer military. 15 16 17 18 C. Dr. Korb’s and General Laich’s Opinions Will Assist the Trier-OfFact Because Their Unchallenged Experience With The United States Military Bears Directly On The Issues In This Case

WilmerHale

Although BLAG does not purport to challenge Dr. Korb’s and General Laich’s

19 expert qualifications, BLAG argues that Dr. Korb’s and General Laich’s opinions will 20 not assist the trier-of-fact because they are purportedly not based on the scientific 21 method or any “specific facts.” BLAG not only ignores the highly-specialized 22 experiences that form the basis for Dr. Korb’s and General Laich’s expert opinions, it 23 also misapprehends the import and scope of these experts’ proffered opinions, which 24 are not—and need not be—reducible to any mechanical version of the “scientific 25 method.” Dr. Korb’s and General Laich’s proffered opinions are based on their extensive 26 27 experience with questions of military recruitment, retention, readiness, and unit 28 cohesion—especially as those issues are impacted by the provision of benefits to CASE NO. CV 12-887-CBM (AJWX)
11

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60

Filed 11/19/12 Page 17 of 26 Page ID #:913

1 servicemembers, veterans, and their family members. Access to these benefits, to the 2 extent that Title 38 and DOMA forbid the United States from providing them to gay 3 and lesbian veterans and their lawful same-sex spouses, is at the heart of this action. 4 That Title 38 and DOMA adversely impact the military and provide no benefit 5 whatsoever—as both Dr. Korb and General Laich opine—means that there can be no 6 rational basis (let alone important or compelling governmental interest) for excluding 7 gay and lesbian veterans from receiving benefits equal to their heterosexual 8 counterparts. That conclusion is central to resolution of this case. 9 10 11
350 South Grand Avenue, Suite 2100 Los Angeles, CA 90071

1.

Dr. Korb’s and General Laich’s Opinions Are Borne of Specific Military Experience That Exceeds The Common Knowledge Of The Average Layman

12

BLAG takes the remarkable position that Dr. Korb and General Laich offer

13 expert testimony that is indistinguishable from that of the “untrained layman,” and 14 that their testimony addresses nothing more than routine “employee benefits” not 15 unlike those at stake in any ordinary course employment dispute. ECF No. 56 at 8. 16 That assertion simply fails to reflect the many ways—recognized no less by the 17 United States Supreme Court—in which the United States military functions as a 18 unique space with experiences, rigors, and challenges not faced in the civilian world. 19 See, e.g., Goldman v. Weinberger, 475 U.S. 503, 506-07 (1986) (upholding military 20 dress regulations that forbid wearing of yarmulke based in part on specific military 21 needs). Accordingly, the wide range of experience brought by Dr. Korb and General 22 Laich to these military-specific issues far exceeds what any layman observer would be 23 able to proffer in terms of employment benefits analysis or an understanding of the 24 recruiting or retention effects of a discriminatory benefits policy. 25 BLAG also ignores well-established precedent in this circuit upholding the 26 admissibility of expert testimony premised on an expert’s non-scientific experience 27 and knowledge. See, e.g., Hankey, 203 F.3d 1160 (upholding admission of testimony 28 of police gang expert, whose expertise was based on “years of experience and special CASE NO. CV 12-887-CBM (AJWX)
12

WilmerHale

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60

Filed 11/19/12 Page 18 of 26 Page ID #:914

1 knowledge”); United States v. Plunk, 153 F.3d 1011, 1017 (9th Cir. 1998) (upholding 2 admission of expert testimony from law enforcement officer regarding jargon of 3 narcotics trade, on basis of expert’s training, experience, and personal knowledge); 4 Hangarter v. Provident Life and Acc. Ins. Co., 373 F.3d 998, 1018 (9th Cir. 2004) 5 (upholding admission of independent insurance consultant’s testimony, based on his 6 knowledge and experience, because “unlike scientific or technical testimony, the 7 reliability of [his] testimony was not contingent upon a particular methodology or 8 technical framework”).3 9 Consistent with the law of this circuit, Dr. Korb’s and General Laich’s expert

10 opinions are based on their vast experience and specialized knowledge of the military 11 that will assist the trier-of-fact in understanding the adverse impact of Title 38 and
350 South Grand Avenue, Suite 2100 Los Angeles, CA 90071

12 DOMA on issues of unique importance to the military, including recruiting, retention, 13 readiness, and unit cohesion. Like the gang expert in Hankey, whose expert 14 testimony was properly admitted based “on the knowledge and experience of the 15 expert, rather than the methodology or theory behind it,” 203 F.3d at 1169, Dr. Korb 16 and General Laich proffer expert opinions whose reliability depends on their 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28
In support of its arguments, BLAG relies on cases that are inapposite for a variety of reasons, and none are in the military context. See ECF No. 56 at 10. In Arjangrad v. JPMorgan Chase Bank, No. 3:10-cv-01157, 2012 WL 1890372, at *5, *7 (D. Or. May 23, 2012), the putative expert admitted that certain of his opinions about human resources practices were “almost self-evident,” “fairly obvious,” and based on “common sense.” In White v. Ford Motor Co., 312 F.3d 998, 1008-09 (9th Cir. 2002), the court observed that it was a “close question” whether it was proper to admit expert testimony relying on “simple logic”; however, the court declined to decide that question. In United States v. Hanna, 293 F.3d 1080, 1086 (9th Cir. 2002), the court explained that expert testimony was unnecessary because the jury, without additional assistance, could “determine what a ‘reasonable person’ would foresee under the circumstances.” Similarly, in Beech Aircraft Corp. v. United States, 51 F.3d 834, 842 (9th Cir. 1995),the court excluded expert testimony offered to show audibility of audio tapes, because the trial judge “was in the best position to determine whether anything on the tapes could be heard.” In McCollen v. UPS Ground Freight Inc., No. 11-cv-0961, 2012 WL 3758837, at *2 (D. Ariz. Aug. 30, 2012), the court rejected the defendant’s argument that plaintiff was required to provide expert testimony to prove her claims and reasoned that ,“fatigue based on the lack of sleep is not an issue beyond the common knowledge of the average layperson.” In Swendsen v. Corey, No. 4:09-cv-00229, 2012 WL 465722, at *4-5 (D. Idaho Feb. 13, 2012), the court excluded expert testimony because of an incomplete record, where the expert’s report listed exhibits but failed to attach the exhibits, long past the deadline—the court held that it was unable to determine if the expert applied any theory or technique because if he had, “he did not disclose them.” In Mueller v. Auker, No. 04-civ-399, 2010 WL 2265867, at *4 ( D. Idaho Feb. 13, 2012), the court excluded testimony in a jury trial where the expert witness opined on the credibility of the witnesses, which the court reasoned, encroached on the “jury’s vital and exclusive function to make credibility determinations,” and did so without explaining how he reached his conclusions. The cases cited by BLAG do not even begin to present the kind of specialized knowledge and experience that Dr. Korb and General Laich would bring to an understanding of the United States military.
3

WilmerHale

CASE NO. CV 12-887-CBM (AJWX)
13

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60

Filed 11/19/12 Page 19 of 26 Page ID #:915

1 considerable experience with the United States military and the specialized knowledge 2 gained thereby. Moreover, just as the gang expert in Hankey worked (undercover) 3 directly with gang members, received formal training in gang structure and 4 organization, and taught classes about gangs, id., both Dr. Korb and General Laich 5 have worked directly for the United States military, have formal training in military 6 and national defense issues unavailable to laypersons, and have taught classes on the 7 same. 8 Furthermore, both Dr. Korb and General Laich have previously served as

9 experts in other federal actions involving similar issues. In Log Cabin Republicans v. 10 United States, the court denied a similar motion to exclude Dr. Korb’s testimony on 11 similar issues. See Minute Order at 2-3, No. 2:04-cv-08425-VAP (ECF No. 210)
350 South Grand Avenue, Suite 2100 Los Angeles, CA 90071

12 (C.D. Cal. July 01, 2010). As the court reasoned: 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 CASE NO. CV 12-887-CBM (AJWX)
14

All seven of Plaintiff’s proposed expert witnesses [including Dr. Korb] are qualified to offer their respective opinions. At least two have testified before other federal courts on similar, if not identical, subjects. All have demonstrated their expertise through research, publication, experience, employment—including military or government service—, or some combination of these. Defendant’s objections to the methods employed by the proposed witnesses are not well-taken either. Qualified expert witnesses with training in the fields of law, sociology and military history are not precluded from testifying simply because the methodology employed is not that used by experts in other fields, such as the ‘hard sciences.’ Id. In Log Cabin Republicans, Dr. Korb offered testimony on the impact of the Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell policy on the personnel and logistical needs of the U.S. military; the history and development of bans on homosexual conduct and gay and lesbian servicemembers in the United States military, including Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell; and the relationship or lack thereof between the stated or acted-upon sexual orientation of servicemembers and the mission of the U.S. military. See Log Cabin Republicans v

WilmerHale

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60

Filed 11/19/12 Page 20 of 26 Page ID #:916

1 United States, 716 F. Supp. 2d. 884, 913, 916-917 (C.D. Cal. 2010) (discussing Dr. 2 Korb’s testimony, and holding Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell unconstitutional). 3 In Witt v. U.S. Dept. of Air Force, General Laich served as a rebuttal expert for

4 the plaintiff, Major Margaret Witt, a lesbian Air Force reservist nurse who was 5 discharged under Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell. General Laich testified that Major Witt did 6 not adversely impact the morale, cohesion, and discipline in her unit. See Laich Depo. 7 at 8:16 – 9:5. The government deposed General Laich but did not challenge his 8 testimony, even though the government bore the burden in the case under Ninth 9 Circuit precedent. See generally Witt v. U.S. Dept. of Air Force, 739 F. Supp. 2d 10 1308, 1313, 1315 (W.D. Wash. 2010) (explaining that the government bore the burden 11 to justify application of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell to Major Witt, and holding that “[t]he
350 South Grand Avenue, Suite 2100 Los Angeles, CA 90071

12 evidence produced at trial [including expert testimony] overwhelmingly supports the 13 conclusion that the suspension and discharge of Margaret Witt did not significantly 14 further the important government interest in advancing unit morale and cohesion. To 15 the contrary, the actions taken against Major Witt had the opposite effect.”). 16 17 18 2. The Reliability of Dr. Korb’s and General Laich’s Proffered Opinions Do Not—And Need Not—Depend On Quantifiable Data

WilmerHale

BLAG argues that Dr. Korb’s and General Laich’s expert testimony should be

19 excluded as unreliable because of a purported “inability to quantify his or her general 20 impressions.” ECF No. 56 at 11. The Federal Rules of Evidence impose no such 21 obligation. In fact, courts have repeatedly qualified experts whose opinions are not 22 reducible to simple numbers. See e.g., United States v. Brownlee, 454 F.3d 131, 144 23 (3d Cir. 2006) (psychologist’s testimony); United States v. Dailide, 227 F.3d 385, 387 24 25 26 27 28 CASE NO. CV 12-887-CBM (AJWX)
15

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60

Filed 11/19/12 Page 21 of 26 Page ID #:917

1 (6th Cir. 2000) (historian’s testimony); Scott v. Ross, 140 F.3d 1275, 1286 (9th Cir. 2 1998) (sociologist’s testimony).4 3 Moreover, BLAG’s argument misapprehends the import and scope of these

4 witnesses’ testimony. Plaintiffs do not offer Dr. Korb and General Laich as experts 5 merely to inform the trier-of-fact “how many servicemembers have obtained same-sex 6 marriage certificates from their respective states.” ECF No. 56 at 11. Rather, Dr. 7 Korb’s and General Laich’s opinions are based on their combined 65+ years of 8 experience with—and academic research on—the military to help the trier-of-fact 9 understand that Title 38 and DOMA have no rational basis, because these laws 10 adversely impact the military and offer no benefit whatsoever. As with the gang 11 expert in Hankey, whose testimony on gang behavior in Los Angeles was not
350 South Grand Avenue, Suite 2100 Los Angeles, CA 90071

12 reducible to mere figures and statistics, but rather whose reliability depended on the 13 “knowledge and experience” of the expert in interacting with gang culture, Dr. Korb’s 14 and General Laich’s opinions are grounded in their specialized knowledge of the 15 armed forces and their personnel concerns—knowledge that is beyond the province of 16 the layperson. Accordingly, BLAG’s position that any failure by Dr. Korb and 17 General Laich to “quantify” or “aggregate” the “recruiting and psychological effects” 18 of Title 38 and DOMA on service members should be rejected. 19 20 21 3. Dr. Korb and General Laich’s Proffered Testimony Is Amply Supported By Broad-based Experience with Military Personnel

WilmerHale

BLAG attacks the reliability of Dr. Korb and General Laich’s expert testimony

22 by asserting that their opinions lack “any hard foundation” and rely upon experience 23 alone. ECF No. 56 at 12. Again, BLAG’s argument fails to acknowledge the 24 25 26
4

27 5105272, at *3 (C.D. Cal. Aug. 21, 2006) is misplaced. ECF No. 56 at 11. In that case, the court

BLAG’s reliance on Rondor Music Int’l Inc. v. TVT Records LLC, No. 05-cv-2909, 2012 WL

28 not articulate how she reached those precise numbers. That scenario is inapposite to the circumstances presented to the Court by Dr. Korb’s and General Laich’s expert testimony. CASE NO. CV 12-887-CBM (AJWX)
16

excluded testimony from an expert who “assigned specific percentages to her conclusions” but could

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60

Filed 11/19/12 Page 22 of 26 Page ID #:918

1 centrality of experience and specialized knowledge to the reliability of these experts’ 2 opinions. 3 First, BLAG’s argument that Dr. Korb and General Laich did not focus in their

4 long military careers on “recruiting or retention issues relating to gay or lesbian 5 servicemembers” and that therefore their experience is not sufficiently related to their 6 opinions is meritless. To the contrary, the breadth and depth of their expertise on 7 these issues as they pertain to all servicemembers amply qualifies them to express 8 their opinions on these issues as they relate to a subset of servicemembers. See, e.g., 9 Scott, 140 F.3d at 1286 (sociologist permitted to opine on social group she had never 10 studied prior to litigation); see also Domingo v. T.K., 289 F.3d 600, 606-07 (9th Cir. 11 2002) (explaining that an expert’s testimony must permit a court to reasonably
350 South Grand Avenue, Suite 2100 Los Angeles, CA 90071

12 conclude that the opinion follows from the analysis, and is not based on wholly 13 subjective and unfounded extrapolations). 14 Second, BLAG’s assertion that Dr. Korb and General Laich fail to explain the

WilmerHale

15 way in which they have applied their experience to the facts at hand is contrary to 16 their deposition testimony. Both men repeatedly explained in their depositions how 17 their unique experiences and knowledge lead them to their expert opinions. See, e.g., 18 Korb Depo. at 13:8 – 15:1 (describing a variety of bases for Dr. Korb’s opinions, 19 including studies he reviewed, his experiences being “in charge of retention” while on 20 active duty in the Navy, research at the American Enterprise Institute, working to 21 “save the volunteer military” in the Reagan Administration as Assistant Secretary of 22 Defense, and work as cochairman of the board of the National Military Family 23 Association), 19:6 – 22:1 (same, and also noting service on the board of USO), 31:13 24 – 36:13 (describing specific work done as Assistant Secretary of Defense on benefits 25 and related issues in order to recruit and retain high-quality servicemembers and to 26 promote military readiness ), 49:15 – 50:17 (describing specific efforts related to 27 benefits used to promote military readiness and unit cohesion), 54:20 – 58:11 28 (recounting a variety of unique experiences, including work at the Brookings Institute CASE NO. CV 12-887-CBM (AJWX)
17

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60

Filed 11/19/12 Page 23 of 26 Page ID #:919

1 and Council of Foreign Relations, as well as the fact between 2003-2007, the military 2 was forced to grant 80,000 moral waivers in order to meet recruitment goals); Laich 3 Depo. at 19:01 – 21:05 (estimating that General Laich had fifty discussions with 4 servicememembers about Title 38), 41:13 – 44:4 (testifying to “hav[ing] been 5 involved in the creation and execution of a number of [recruitment, retention, and 6 readiness programs and policies]” and noting his “strong view based upon . . . 35 7 years of service and the work [he’s] done since leaving active service”), 68:01-20 8 (“Many people who have never served in a military organization don’t understand the 9 sacrifices that are made, not only by the service members but also by the families.”), 10 74:1 – 76:20 (noting factors a person considers when deciding to enlist, including 11 benefits), 105:4 – 110:4 (describing course of study at the Army War College and
350 South Grand Avenue, Suite 2100 Los Angeles, CA 90071

12 post-graduate studies at Harvard University, and that these studies informed General 13 Laich’s opinion), 110:5 – 113:8 (describing specific work done and facts learned as a 14 Commanding General as related to recruitment, retention, readiness, and cohesion). 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 CASE NO. CV 12-887-CBM (AJWX)
18

WilmerHale

4.

BLAG’s Remaining Arguments Are Misplaced

Finally, BLAG argues that Dr. Korb’s and General Laich’s opinions are unreliable because they did not consider the effect of some states not recognizing same-sex marriages. ECF No. 56 at 11, 14-16. BLAG appears to be arguing that because some state-level discrimination may still exist even if Title 38 and DOMA are overturned, Dr. Korb’s and General Laich’s opinions are unreliable. This argument is nothing more than a straw man, as the interplay between state and federal discrimination simply has no bearing on the admissibility of Dr. Korb’s and General Laich’s expert opinions about the effect of federal discrimination on the military. See also Korb Depo. at 101:15-21; Laich Depo. at 53:15-24. Likewise, whether or not same-sex spouses are legally prohibited from participation in Family Readiness Groups (“FRGs”) does not bear on the admissibility of Dr. Korb’s and General Laich’s opinions, for the crucial fact remains the same—

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60

Filed 11/19/12 Page 24 of 26 Page ID #:920

1 Title 38 and DOMA prohibit veterans with same-sex spouses from receiving equal 2 benefits and, thereby, adversely impact the military. Further, both Dr. Korb and 3 General Laich testified that in their experience, same-sex spouses are not able to fully 4 participate in Family Readiness Groups. See Korb Depo. at 76:20 – 77:5; Laich 5 Depo. at 88:22 – 89:15. 6 IV. 7 8 9 DATE: November 19, 2012 10 11
350 South Grand Avenue, Suite 2100 Los Angeles, CA 90071

CONCLUSION For the foregoing reasons, the motion to exclude should be denied.

Respectfully Submitted, SOUTHERN POVERTY LAW CENTER WILMER CUTLER PICKERING HALE AND DORR LLP BY: /s/ Randall R. Lee RANDALL R. LEE 350 South Grand Avenue, Suite 2100 Los Angeles, CA 90071 (213) 443-5300 randall.lee@wilmerhale.com

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28

WilmerHale

Attorneys for Plaintiffs

CASE NO. CV 12-887-CBM (AJWX)
19

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60

Filed 11/19/12 Page 25 of 26 Page ID #:921

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27

CERTIFICATE OF SERVICE I certify that on November 19, 2012, I electronically filed the foregoing Plaintiffs’ Memorandum Of Law In Opposition To Intervenor-Defendant’s Motion to Exclude the Expert Testimony of Dr. Lawrence J. Korb and Maj. Gen. (Ret.) Dennis Laich with the Clerk of Court by using the CM/ECF system, which provided an electronic notice and electronic link of the same to the following attorneys of record through the Court’s CM/ECF system: Paul D. Clement pclement@bancroftpllc.com H. Christopher Bartolomucci cbartolomucci@bancroftpllc.com Nicholas J. Nelson nnelson@bancroftpllc.com Michael H. McGinley mmcginley@bancroftpllc.com BANCROFT PLLC 1919 M Street, N.W., Suite 470 Washington, D.C. 20036 Kerry W. Kircher Kerry.Kircher@mail.house.gov William Pittard William.Pittard@mail.house.gov Christine Davenport Christine.Davenport@mail.house.gov Todd B. Tatelman Todd.Tatelman@mail.house.gov Mary Beth Walker MaryBeth.Walker@mail.house.gov Eleni M. Roumel Eleni.Roumel@mail.house.gov OFFICE OF GENERAL COUNSEL, U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES 219 Cannon House Office Building Washington, D.C. 20515

CASE NO. CV 12-887 (CBM (AJWX)

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60

Filed 11/19/12 Page 26 of 26 Page ID #:922

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11
350 South Grand Avenue, Suite 2100 Los Angeles, CA 90071

Jean Lin, Trial Attorney jean.lin@usdoj.gov U.S. DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE Civil Division - Federal Programs Branch 20 Massachusetts Avenue, Northwest Washington, District of Columbia 20530

/s/ Adam P. Romero Adam P. Romero

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 CASE NO. CV 12-887-CBM (AJWX)
2

WilmerHale

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-1

Filed 11/19/12 Page 1 of 3 Page ID #:923

EXHIBIT A

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Lawrence J. Korb | Center for American Progress

Document 60-1

Filed 11/19/12 Page 2 of 3 Page ID #:924 http://www.americanprogress.org/about/staff/korb-lawrence-j/bio/

Lawrence J. Korb
Senior Fellow
Expertise: Federal Budget, Military, National Security Lawrence J. Korb is a Senior Fellow at American Progress. He is also a senior advisor to the Center for Defense Information and an adjunct professor at Georgetown University. Prior to joining the Center for American Progress he was a senior fellow and director of national security studies at the Council on Foreign Relations. From July 1998 to October 2002 he was council vice president, director of studies, and holder of the Maurice Greenberg Chair. Prior to joining the council, Dr. Korb served as director of the Center for Public Policy Education and senior fellow in the Foreign Policy Studies Program at the Brookings Institution; dean of the Graduate School of Public and International Affairs at the University of Pittsburgh; vice president of corporate operations at the Raytheon Company; and director of defense studies at the American Enterprise Institute.

High-resolution image

Dr. Korb served as assistant secretary of defense (manpower, reserve affairs, installations, and logistics) from 1981 through 1985. In that position, he administered about 70 percent of the defense budget. For his service in that position, he was awarded the Department of Defense’s medal for Distinguished Public Service. Dr. Korb served on active duty for four years as Naval Flight Officer, and retired from the Naval Reserve with

1 of 2

9/14/12 2:09 PM

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Lawrence J. Korb | Center for American Progress

Document 60-1

Filed 11/19/12 Page 3 of 3 Page ID #:925 http://www.americanprogress.org/about/staff/korb-lawrence-j/bio/

the rank of captain. He received his Ph.D. in political science from the State University of New York at Albany and has held full-time teaching positions at the University of Dayton, the Coast Guard Academy, and the Naval War College. Dr. Korb has authored, co-authored, edited, or contributed to more than 20 books and written more than 100 articles on national security issues. His books include The Joint Chiefs of Staff: The First Twenty-five Years; The Fall and Rise of the Pentagon; American National Security: Policy and Process, Future Visions for U.S. Defense Policy; Reshaping America’s Military; A New National Security Strategy in an Age of Terrorists, Tyrants, and Weapons of Mass Destruction; Serving America’s Veterans; and Military Reform. His articles have appeared in such journals as Foreign Affairs, Public Administration Review, The New York Times Sunday Magazine, Naval Institute Proceedings, and International Security. Over the past decade Mr. Korb has made over 2,000 appearances as a commentator on such shows as "The Today Show," "The Early Show," "Good Morning America," "Face the Nation," "This Week," "The News Hour," "Nightline," "60 Minutes," "Larry King Live," "The O’Reilly Factor," and "Hannity and Colmes." His more than 100 op-ed pieces have appeared in such major newspapers as The Washington Post, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Times, Los Angeles Times, The Boston Globe, The Baltimore Sun, The Philadelphia Inquirer, and The Christian Science Monitor. Books by Lawrence J. Korb: A New National Security Strategy in an Age of Terrorists, Tyrants, and Weapons of Mass Destruction: Three Options Presented as Presidential Speeches Reshaping America’s Military: Four Alternatives Presented as Presidential Speeches Serving America’s Veterans

2 of 2

9/14/12 2:09 PM

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-2 #:926

Filed 11/19/12 Page 1 of 31 Page ID

EXHIBIT B

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-2 #:927

Filed 11/19/12 Page 2 of 31 Page ID

Korb, L.J., Ward, R., Pentagon Well Positioned for Spending Reduction, mySA (Aug. 27, 2012), http://www.mysanantonio.com/opinion/commentary/article/Pentagon-well-positionedfor-spending-reduction-3819040.php Korb, L.J. et al., What’s $2 Trillion Among Friends?, Foreign Pol’y (Aug. 20, 2012), http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/08/20/what_s_2_trillion_among_friends Korb, L.J., Defense Cuts Won’t Hurt That Much, CNN Money (Aug. 2, 2012), http://money.cnn.com/2012/08/02/news/economy/defense-cuts-commentary/ Korb, L.J., Ward, R., Fewer Troops, More Security: Elections and Intervention in Libya and Iraq, Center for American Progress (Jul. 31, 2012), http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/security/news/2012/07/31/11835/fewer-troopsmore-security/ Korb, L.J., Simple Justice Demands the Release of Pollard, Jerusalem Post, Jul. 18, 2012, at 15 Korb, L.J. et al., Gunpoint Stimulus, Foreign Pol’y (Jul. 2, 2012), http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/07/02/gunpoint_stimulus Korb, L.J., Rothman, A.H., U.S.-Indian Relations: Permanent Interests Not Permanent Friends, e-International Relations (Jun. 14, 2012), http://www.e-ir.info/2012/06/14/us-indianrelations-permanent-interests-not-permanent-friends/ Korb, L.J., Reflections from the African Land Forces Summit, Center for American Progress (Jun. 12, 2012), http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/security/news/2012/06/12/11769/reflectionsfrom-the-african-land-forces-summit/ Korb, L.J. et al., Military Health Care: Facing the Facts, National Interest (Jun. 7, 2012), http://nationalinterest.org/commentary/military-health-care-facing-the-facts-7019 Korb, L.J., Hoffman, M., What’s Next for NATO?, Center for American Progress (May 17, 2012), http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/security/report/2012/05/17/11605/whatsnext-for-nato/ Korb, L.J., Bhagwati, A., Justice for Victims of Rape in the Ranks, Newsday (N.Y.), May 15, 2012, at A30 Korb, L.J. et al., The Top 10 Things to Know About Military Compensation, Center for American Progress (May 11, 2012), http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/security/news/2012/05/11/11647/the-top-10things-to-know-about-military-compensation/ Korb, L.J., Bhagwati, A., Rape in the Ranks, Baltimore Sun, May 10, 2012, at A21 Korb, L.J. et al., Reforming Military Compensation, Center for American Progress (May 7, 2012),

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-2 #:928

Filed 11/19/12 Page 3 of 31 Page ID

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/security/report/2012/05/07/11573/reformingmilitary-compensation/ Korb, L.J., 6 Reasons America Is Safer Under Obama, U.S. News & World Report, May 2, 2012, at 1 Korb, L.J. et al., VFW, Allies Mislead on Pay, Benefits, Politico (Apr. 29, 2012), http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0412/75720.html Boteach, M. et al., Protecting Wasteful Military Spending at All Costs, Center for American Progress (Apr. 18, 2012), http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/budget/news/2012/04/18/11408/protectingwasteful-military-spending-at-all-costs/ Korb, L.J., An Age of Austerity: What Is It and What Does It Mean?, Lecture at the Conference on Strategy, U.S. Army War College (Apr. 11, 2012) (video available at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZWZFexjtj8) Korb, L.J., Time to Let Hamid Karzai Kick Us Out of Afghanistan, Politico (Apr. 4, 2012), http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0412/74845.html Korb, L.J., 6 Reasons to Keep the Defense Budget Sequestration Cuts, U.S. News & World Report, Apr. 3, 2012, at 1 Korb, L.J., Hoffman, M., New Ryan Plan Hurts U.S. Foreign Policy, Center for American Progress (Mar. 22, 2012), http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/security/news/2012/03/22/11311/new-ryan-planhurts-u-s-foreign-policy/ Korb, L.J., Time to Rein in Defense Budget, Politico (Mar. 7, 2012), http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0312/73738.html Korb, L.J., Rothman, A.H., No First Use: The Way to Contain Nuclear War in South Asia, 68 Bull. of The Atomic Scientists 34 (2012) Boteach, M. et al., Infographic: Keeping Wasteful Defense Spending vs. Helping Vets, Center for American Progress (Mar. 2, 2012), http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/military/news/2012/03/02/11321/infographickeeping-wasteful-defense-spending-vs-helping-vets/ Korb, L.J., The Cost of Malpractice on F-35 Goes Unpaid, 27 Defense News 29 (2012) Korb, L.J. et al., The Fiscal Year 2013 Defense Budget: A Report Card, Center for American Progress (Feb. 13, 2012), http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/security/report/2012/02/13/11023/the-fiscalyear-2013-defense-budget-a-report-card/

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-2 #:929

Filed 11/19/12 Page 4 of 31 Page ID

Korb, L.J. et al., Panetta’s Trimmed Defense Budget Is a Good First Step—but It Isn’t Enough, Center for American Progress (Jan. 27, 2012), http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/military/news/2012/01/27/10977/panettastrimmed-defense-budget-is-a-good-first-step-but-it-isnt-enough/ Korb, L.J., The Right Cuts, National Interest (Jan. 25, 2012), http://nationalinterest.org/commentary/obamas-overblown-defense-reductions-6379 Korb, L.J., U.S. Withdrawal Came at Exactly the Right Time, U.S. News & World Report, Jan. 23, 2012, at 1 Korb, L.J., Military Benefits Must be Cut, CNN World (Jan. 11, 2012), http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com/2012/01/11/korb-military-benefits-must-be-cut/ Korb, L.J., Obama’s Republican Plan for the Pentagon, Salon (Jan. 9, 2012), http://www.salon.com/2012/01/09/obamas_republican_plan_for_the_pentagon/singleton/ Korb, L.J., Rothman, A.H., President Obama’s Defense Readjustments Shaped by New Strategic and Fiscal Realities, Center for American Progress (Jan. 6, 2012), http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/security/news/2012/01/06/10931/presidentobamas-defense-readjustments-shaped-by-new-strategic-and-fiscal-realities/ Rothman, A.H., Korb, L.J., Defense in an Age of Austerity, Center for American Progress (Jan. 6, 2012), http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/military/report/2012/01/06/10993/defense-in-anage-of-austerity/ Korb, L.J., Why Panetta’s Pentagon Cuts Are Easier Than You Think, Foreign Affairs (Jan. 4, 2012), http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/137007/lawrence-j-korb/why-panettaspentagon-cuts-are-easier-than-you-think# Korb, L.J., Keeping the Impending Deployment of American Marines to Australia in Proper Perspective, China US Focus (Dec. 21, 2011), http://chinausfocus.com/peacesecurity/keeping-the-impending-deployment-of-american-marines-to-australia-in-properperspective/ Korb, L.J., Iraq Failed U.S. Troops, Politico (Dec. 20, 2011), http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1211/70696.html Korb, L.J., French, W., A Prudent Response to Chinese Military Modernization, Huffington Post (Dec. 19, 2011), http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lawrence-korb/defensespending_b_1158413.html Korb, L.J., Reasonable Ways to Cut Defense Budget, U.S. News & World Report, Nov. 21, 2011, at 1

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-2 #:930

Filed 11/19/12 Page 5 of 31 Page ID

Korb, L.J., Target Nuclear Weapons Budget, Plain Dealer (Cleveland, OH) (Nov. 19, 2011), http://www.cleveland.com/opinion/index.ssf/2011/11/target_nuclear_weapons_budget.ht ml Korb, L.J., The Real Effects of Sequestration on Defense Spending, Huffington Post (Nov. 17, 2011), http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lawrence-korb/sequestration-defensespending_b_1100484.html Korb, L.J., Defense is Not a Jobs Program, Politico (Nov. 16, 2011), http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1111/68505.html Korb, L.J., Ideas for Cutting Military Spending, N.Y. Times, Nov. 13, 2011, at SR2 Korb, L.J., Cut To the Chase, 87 Officer 8 (2011) Korb, L.J., The Iraq War Unnecessarily Prolonged the Conflict in Afghanistan, U.S. News & World Report, Nov. 11, 2011, at 1 Korb, L.J., The State of America’s Veterans, Center for American Progress (Nov. 10, 2011), http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/military/news/2011/11/10/10610/the-state-ofamericas-veterans/ Korb, L.J., Letter to the Editor, Invitation to a Dialogue: The Military Budget, N.Y. Times, Nov. 9, 2011 Korb, L.J., Segal, D.R., Manning & Financing the Twenty-First-Century All-Volunteer Force, 140 Daedalus 75 (2011) Korb, L.J., Getting to Global Zero, Center for American Progress (Nov. 3, 2011), http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/security/news/2011/11/03/10699/getting-toglobal-zero/ Korb, L.J., Rothman, A.H., What Iraq Pullout Means to the Budget, CNN Money (Oct. 24, 2011), http://money.cnn.com/2011/10/21/news/economy/iraq_troop_pullout/ Korb, L.J., Panza, L., Open Combat Roles to Women, Baltimore Sun, Oct. 19, 2011, at A19 Korb, L.J., Rothman, A.H., House Holds Defense Bill Hostage to Social Prejudices, Center for American Progress (Oct. 14, 2011), http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/military/news/2011/10/14/10534/house-holdsdefense-bill-hostage-to-social-prejudices/ Korb, L.J., Rothman, A.H., Open Letter to the Super Committee, Huffington Post (Oct. 13, 2011), http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lawrence-korb/super-committeerecommendations_b_1009329.html

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-2 #:931

Filed 11/19/12 Page 6 of 31 Page ID

Korb, L.J., Rothman, A.H., Nation Building at Home, Center for American Progress (Sep. 26, 2011), http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/security/report/2011/09/26/10227/nationbuilding-at-home/ Korb, L.J., Keeping Ballooning Tricare Costs Down Will Require More Robust Proposals, Center for American Progress (Sep. 22, 2011), http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/military/news/2011/09/22/10233/keepingballooning-tricare-costs-down-will-require-more-robust-proposals/ Korb, L.J., Hensley, M., The Few, The Proud, The Very Vulnerable, Wall St. J., Sep. 16, 2011, at A14 Korb, L.J., How About an Offset for War Funding?, Times-Dispatch (Richmond, VA) (Sep. 14, 2011), http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/oped/2011/sep/14/tdopin02-how-about-anoffset-for-war-funding-ar-1307032/ Conley, L., Korb, L.J., Beyond Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell, Center for American Progress (Sep. 13, 2011), http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/security/news/2011/09/13/10347/beyonddont-ask-dont-tell/ Korb, L.J., Our Decimated Military, 22 Democracy J. 25 (2011) Korb, L.J., Rothman, A.H., Reasons to Keep Our Word – U.S. Withdrawal from IRAQ, Near East Quarterly (Aug. 2011), http://www.neareastquarterly.com/index.php/2011/09/08/reasonsto-keep-our-word-us-withdrawal-from-iraq/ Korb, L.J., Getting Defense Spending Under Control, Center for American Progress (Aug. 11, 2011), http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/security/news/2011/08/11/10072/gettingdefense-spending-under-control/ Korb, L.J. et al., Defense Cuts After the Debt Deal, Center for American Progress (Aug. 11, 2011), http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/security/news/2011/08/11/10081/defensecuts-after-the-debt-deal/ Korb, L.J., Defense Needs to Play Its Part in the Deficit Debate, Huffington Post (Jul. 28, 2011), http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lawrence-korb/defense-needs-to-play-its_b_912753.html Korb, L.J., Klug, S., U.S. Military Needs a Stronger Sexual Assault Policy, DefensePolicy.org (Jul. 26, 2011), http://www.defensepolicy.org/2011/cap/u-s-military-needs-a-strongersexual-assault-policy Korb, L.J., Conley, L., Break the Brass Ceiling, Armed Forces J., Jul. 25, 2011, at 32 Korb, L.J., Klug, S., Failing to Raise the Debt Ceiling Would Threaten National Security, Center for American Progress (Jul. 14, 2011), http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/security/news/2011/07/14/9982/failing-to-raisethe-debt-ceiling-would-threaten-national-security/

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-2 #:932

Filed 11/19/12 Page 7 of 31 Page ID

Korb, L.J. et al., A Return to Responsibility: What President Obama and Congress Can Learn About Defense Budgets from Past Presidents, Center for American Progress (Jul. 14, 2011), http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/security/report/2011/07/14/10016/areturn-to-responsibility/ Korb, L.J., Defense Cuts Needed in Federal Budget, Politico (Jul. 7, 2011), http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0711/58505.html Korb, L.J. et al., A Historical Perspective on Defense Budgets, Center for American Progress (Jul. 6, 2011), http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/budget/news/2011/07/06/10041/ahistorical-perspective-on-defense-budgets/ Korb, L.J. et al., Sensible Defense Cuts: How to Save $400 Billion Through 2015, Center for American Progress (Jul. 6, 2011), http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/budget/news/2011/07/06/10042/sensibledefense-cuts/ Korb, L.J., Military Abortion Policy is Behind the Times, Star-Ledger (Newark, N.J.), Jul. 6, 2011, at 11 Korb, L.J., An Out-of-Step Military; Denying Abortion Coverage for U.S. Servicewomen is Simply Unfair, L.A. Times, Jun. 30, 2011, at A21 Korb, L.J., Stokes, J., Time for a ‘Weapons BRAC’; Congress Will Never Make Needed Cuts on Its Own, So an Independent Panel is Required, Baltimore Sun, Jun. 16, 2011, at A19 Korb, L.J., Pemberton, M., A Unified Security Budget for the United States, FY 2011, Institute for Policy Studies (2011), http://www.ips-dc.org/files/2361/USB FY2011.pdf Korb, L.J., Beyond Al Qaeda, Bull. of The Atomic Scientists (Jun. 6, 2011), http://www.thebulletin.org/web-edition/op-eds/beyond-al-qaeda Korb, L.J., Rothman, A.H., Defense Authorization and New START, Huffington Post (May 27, 2011), http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lawrence-korb/post_2067_b_868091.html Korb, L.J., The Myth of Robert Gates, National Interest (May 27, 2011), http://nationalinterest.org/commentary/the-myth-robert-gates-5373 Korb, L.J., Conley, L., Budget Lessons of Osama bin Laden, Politico (May 9, 2011), http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0511/54538.html Korb, L.J., Cut Personnel and Benefits, N.Y. Times (May 9, 2011), http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2011/05/08/how-to-cut-the-military/cutpersonnel-and-benefits-4 Korb, L.J., The Force of Special Forces, Politico (May 4, 2011), http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0511/54205.html

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-2 #:933

Filed 11/19/12 Page 8 of 31 Page ID

Korb, L.J., More Efficient Counterterrorism that Saves Money, Center for American Progress (May 4, 2011), http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/security/news/2011/05/04/9670/more-efficientcounterterrorism-that-saves-money/ Korb, L.J., Leave Iraq On Time, With Dignity, Boston Globe, Apr. 30, 2011, at A11 Korb, L.J., Conley, L., Panetta’s Mission: Can He Cut the Pentagon?, CNN Money (Apr. 28, 2011), http://money.cnn.com/2011/04/28/news/economy/panetta_nomination_lawrence_korb/in dex.htm Korb, L.J. et al., Defensible Budget Cuts: Economic Prosperity Underpins National Security, Center for American Progress (Apr. 13, 2011), http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/budget/news/2011/04/13/9476/defensiblebudget-cuts/ Korb, L.J., Rep. Ryan’s Plan Fails to Address Defense Spending, Center for American Progress (Apr. 11, 2011), http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/budget/news/2011/04/11/9508/rep-ryans-planfails-to-address-defense-spending/ Korb, L.J. et al., How a Shutdown Would Affect Our Military, Center for American Progress (Apr. 7, 2011), http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/military/news/2011/04/07/9494/how-ashutdown-would-affect-our-military/ Korb, L.J., Conley, L., The $1 Million Soldier: What’s Wrong With How We Budget War, CNN Money (Apr. 4, 2011), http://money.cnn.com/2011/04/04/news/economy/war_costs_lawrence_korb/index.htm Korb, L.J., Conley, L., U.S. Military Marches Past “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell”, Center for American Progress (Mar. 30, 2011), http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/military/report/2011/03/30/9331/u-s-militarymarches-past-dont-ask-dont-tell/ Korb, L.J., The Public’s Disconnect With the Military, San Diego Union-Tribune (Mar. 27, 2011), http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2011/mar/27/the-publics-disconnect-with-themilitary/ Korb, L.J., Rothman, A.H., Fukushima: Another reason to ratify the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty, Bull. of the Atomic Scientists (Mar. 23, 2011), http://www.thebulletin.org/webedition/op-eds/fukushima-another-reason-to-ratify-the-comprehensive-test-ban-treaty Korb, L.J., Conley, L., War in an Age of Deficits, CNN Money (Mar. 23, 2011), http://money.cnn.com/2011/03/23/news/economy/Libya_cost_lawrence_korb/index.htm

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-2 #:934

Filed 11/19/12 Page 9 of 31 Page ID

Korb, L.J., Obama Helps U.S. Interests In Libya, Politico (Mar. 23, 2011), http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0311/51804.html Korb, L.J., Robert Gates’ Budget Dance, Huffington Post (Mar. 16, 2011), http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lawrence-korb/why-defense-must-be-part_b_836701.html Korb, L.J., A Pentagon Achilles’ Heel: Soaring Healthcare Costs are Eating Into the Defense Dept.’s Budget. There are Solutions, But Congress has Been Loath to Act, L.A. Times, Mar. 10, 2011, at A15 Korb, L.J. et al., Restoring Tricare: Ensuring the Long Term Viability of the Military Health Care System, Center for American Progress (Feb. 28, 2011), http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/healthcare/report/2011/02/28/9141/restoringtricare/ Korb, L.J. et al., Defense Cuts Are Mandatory, Center for American Progress (Feb. 15, 2011), http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/budget/news/2011/02/15/9156/defense-cuts-aremandatory/ Korb, L.J., Conley, L., Obama’s Pentagon Cuts Not What They Seem, CNN Money (Feb. 11, 2011), http://money.cnn.com/2011/02/11/news/economy/lawrence_korb_defense_obama_budge t/index.htm Rothman, A.H., Korb, L.J., Pakistan Doubles Its Nuclear Arsenal: Is it Time to Start Worrying?, Bull. of the Atomic Scientists (Feb. 11, 2011), http://thebulletin.org/webedition/features/pakistan-doubles-its-nuclear-arsenal-it-time-to-start-worrying Korb, L.J., Reagan’s Progressive Foreign Policy, Huffington Post (Feb. 8, 2011), http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lawrence-korb/reagans-progressive-forei_b_820410.html Korb, L.J. et al., Top 10 Fiscally Responsible Defense Cuts, Center for American Progress (Feb. 2, 2011), http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/security/report/2011/02/02/9053/top10-fiscally-responsible-defense-cuts/ Korb, L.J., Gates Fakes Cuts, Drives Spending, Politico (Jan. 28, 2011), http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0111/48307.html Korb, L.J., Conley, L., Scale Back the Defense Budget, Center for American Progress (Jan. 21, 2011), http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/security/news/2011/01/21/8933/scaleback-the-defense-budget/ Korb, L.J., Justice for a Spy, Foreign Pol’y (Jan. 12, 2011), http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2011/01/12/justice_for_a_spy?page=0,1

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-2 #:935

Filed 11/19/12 Page 10 of 31 Page ID

Korb, L.J., How to Cut $1 Trillion From the Pentagon, CNN Money (Jan. 5, 2011), http://money.cnn.com/2011/01/05/news/economy/lawrence_korb_defense_spending/inde x.htm Pemberton, M., Korb, L.J., Report of the Task Force on a Unified Security Budget for the United States, Institute for Policy Studies (2010), http://www.ips-dc.org/reports/USB_fy_2011 Wheeler, W. et al., Building Affordability, 25 Defense News 29 (2010) Korb, L.J., Hall of Famers, 182 Foreign Pol’y 16 (2010) (Letter to the Editor) Korb, L.J., It’s Time to Free Jonathan Pollard, Baltimore Sun, Nov. 3, 2010, at A27 Korb, L.J., Free Pollard; The Israeli Spy’s Life Sentence Doesn’t Fit the Crime. He Has Been in Prison Long Enough, L.A. Times, Oct. 28, 2010, at A25 Korb, L.J., Conley, L., Want to Improve U.S. National Security? Cut the Defense Budget., Christian Science Monitor, Oct. 7, 2010 DVD: This House Believes this Afghan Government is Not Worth Fighting for (Qatar Foundation 2010) (available from the Qatar Foundation, http://www.dohadebates.com/debates/past.asp?s=6#) Thompson, L., Korb, L.J., The Cost of Superpower Status: The U.S. Can’t Afford Current Military Spending. Our Allies Must Do More to Help, L.A. Times, Aug. 18, 2010, at A17 Korb, L.J., Juul, P., Rove is Missing the Point on Iraq, Wall St. J., Jul. 19, 2010, at A16 Korb, L.J., How to Cut Military Spending, National Review, July 13, 2010 Korb, L.J., Paying a Premium, Armed Forces J., Jul. 1, 2010, at 10 Korb, L.J. et al., America 2021: The Military and the World, 17 Democracy: A J. of Ideas 10 (2010) Korb, L.J., U.S. Senate Must Ratify New START, Atlanta Journal-Constitution, Jun. 25, 2010, at A19 Korb, L.J. et al., Implementing the Repeal of “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” in the U.S. Armed Forces, Center for American Progress (2010), http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2010/03/pdf/dadt_repeal Korb, L.J., The Iranian Quagmire: How to Move Forward, 66 Bull. of The Atomic Scientists 95 (2010) Korb, L.J., Obama’s Nuclear Policy Enhances America’s Moral Position, Security, U.S. News & World Report, Apr. 26, 2010

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-2 #:936

Filed 11/19/12 Page 11 of 31 Page ID

Korb, L.J., Meeting the Military’s Manpower Challenges, Defense Technical Information Center (2010), http://handle.dtic.mil/100.2/ADA516734 Korb, L.J., Duggan, S.E., Putting the Coast Guard Out to Sea, N.Y. Times, Feb. 27, 2010, at A21 Korb, L.J. et al., Building a U.S. Coast Guard for the 21st century, Center for American Progress (2010), http://www.americanprogress.org/wpcontent/uploads/issues/2010/06/pdf/coast_guard.pdf Korb, L.J., Arons, J., Doing a Disservice to Women Who Serve, Baltimore Sun, Jan. 22, 2010, at A19 Korb, L.J., Mullen’s Missing Candor, Wash. Post, Jan. 13, 2010, at A19 Korb, L.J., Conley, L., Fund the Surge, Trim the Defense Bill’s Fat, Boston Globe, Jan. 6, 2010, at A13 Korb, L.J., Paying for Our Wars by Credit Card, 155 Chicago Daily Law Bull. 6 (2009) Wheeler, W.T., Korb, L.J., MILITARY REFORM: AN UNEVEN HISTORY AND AN UNCERTAIN FUTURE (2009) Korb, L.J. et al., Integrating Security: Preparing for the National Security Threats of the 21st Century, Center for American Progress (2009), http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2009/11/pdf/integrating_security.pdf Korb, L.J., 3 Reasons Not to Rush More Troops to Afghanistan, Baltimore Sun, Oct. 11, 2009, at A23 Korb, L.J., Juul, P., Multiple Benefits if Japan Buys F-22, Atlanta Journal-Constitution, Sep. 4, 2009, at A21 Dobbins, J.F. et al., U.S. Withdrawal from Iraq: What Are the Regional Implications?, 16 Middle East Pol’y 1 (2009) Korb, L.J., SERVING AMERICA’S VETERANS: A REFERENCE HANDBOOK (2009) Korb, L.J. et al., Meeting the Challenges in Pakistan: Trip Report and Recommendations for U.S. Policy, Center for American Progress (2009), http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2009/05/pdf/pakistan_trip_report.pdf Korb, L.J., Sustainable Security in Afghanistan: Crafting an Effective and Responsible Strategy for the Forgotten Front, Center for American Progress (2009), http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2009/0/pdf/sustainable_afghanistan.pdf Korb, L.J., Parsi, T., Establish “Rules of the Road” in the Gulf, 24 Defense News 29 (2009)

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-2 #:937

Filed 11/19/12 Page 12 of 31 Page ID

Korb, L.J., War’s Other Victims: With an Exhausted and Stressed U.S. Military, is it Any Wonder Horrific Incidents Occur?, Baltimore Sun, Jul. 13, 2009, at A13 Korb, L.J. et al., How to End “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell,” Christian Science Monitor, Jul. 7, 2009 Korb, L.J. et al., Ending “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” Practical Steps to Repeal the Ban on Openly Gay Men and Women in the U.S. Military, Center for American Progress (2009), http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2009/06/pdf/dadt.pdf Duggan, S., Korb, L.J., Iraq Withdrawal, J. of Int’l Peace Operations (2009), at 19 Korb, L.J., Conley, L., Forging an American Empire, in JUDGING BUSH (Robert Maranto et al., eds.) (2009) Korb, L.J., Merighi, M., Defense Spending As Stimulus, Baltimore Sun, Feb. 8, 2009, at B3 Korb, L.J., Pemberton, M., A Unified Security Budget for the United States, FY 2009, Institute for Policy Studies (2009), http://www.ips-dc.org/getfile.php?id=273 Korb, L.J., Pemberton, M., Report of the Task Force on a Unified Security Budget for the United States, FY 2009, Center for Defense Information (2008), http://www.ipsdc.org/reports/#676 Korb, L.J., Building a Military for the 21st Century: New Realities, New Priorities, Center for American Progress (2008), http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2008/12/pdf/military_priorities.pdf Korb, L.J., No Bang for The Buck: Lack of Contracting Oversight Hurts Afghan Mission, 23 Defense News 37 (2008) Korb, L.J., We Need a Smart Defense Policy, Not a Gold-Plated One, Wall St. J., Nov. 13, 2008, at A16 Korb, L.J., Chen, W., U.S. Must Suspend Deal if India Tests Another Nuke, Wash. Times, Nov. 11, 2008, at A4 Korb, L.J., Conley, L., The Contributions of Iran, Boston Globe, Oct. 24, 2008, at A15 Pemberton, M., Korb, L.J., U.S. Should Boost Nonmilitary Security: Foreign Aid, Diplomacy, Key to Strategic Success, 23 Defense News 37 (2008) Korb, L.J., Conley, L., Dangerous Doctrine: America Must Consider the Global Implications of President Bush’s Risky Preventive War Policy, Baltimore Sun, Sep. 17, 2008, at A21 Korb, L.J., Bergmann, M.A., Restructuring the Military, 25 Issues in Sci. and Tech. 35 (2008) Korb, L.J., Conley, L., America’s Oil Problem, 3 Innovations 29 (2008) THE BALLAD OF ESEQUIEL HERNÁNDEZ (Documentary Educational Resources 2008)

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-2 #:938

Filed 11/19/12 Page 13 of 31 Page ID

Korb, L.J., Contrasting Goals in Iraq, Boston Globe, Jul. 20, 2008, at C9 Korb, L.J., Duggan, S., Lessons for U.S. in N. Korea Errors, Canberra Times (Australia), Jul. 10, 2008, at A21 Korb, L.J., Duggan, S., Pay Heed to Pyongyang: The U.S. Could Have Struck a Deal with North Korea Years Ago – It Would Be Foolish to Wait with Iran, Guardian (London), Jul. 9, 2008, at 30 Korb, L.J., Wadhams, C., Afghanistan is Not Iraq, 23 Defense News 45 (2008) Korb, L.J., Moss, I., Moving Beyond the Carter Doctrine: Rethinking the U.S. Military Presence in the Persian Gulf, The Century Foundation (2008) http://tcf.org/events/pdfs/ev232/korb.pdf/++atfield++file Korb, L.J., Bergmann, M.A., Embracing New Role: The Nation Should Support the U.S. Military as it Takes the Lead in Global Disaster Response, Baltimore Sun, May 20, 2008, at A9 Korb, L.J., The Road to Kuwait: Iraq War Advocates Overstate the Difficulties of Withdrawal, The American Conservative, May 19, 2008, at 15 Korb, L.J., Reagan and the Draft: Volunteer Army in Iraq Stretched Thin, Wash. Times, May 16, 2008, at A21 Korb, L.J., Moss, I., Factor Military Duty Into Criticism, Chicago Tribune, Apr. 3, 2008, at C21 Korb, L.J., Duggan, S., Petraeus Can’t Give Congress the Big Picture, Star-Ledger (Newark, N.J.), Mar. 17, 2008, at 15 Korb, L.J., Duggan, S., Petraeus Shouldn’t Be a Solo Act, L.A. Times, Mar. 14, 2008, at A23 Korb, L.J., Pemberton, M., A Unified Security Budget for the United States, FY 2008, Foreign Policy In Focus (2008), http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/4175 Takeyh, J. et al., A War We Must End, Wash. Post, Feb. 26, 2008, at A17 Korb, L.J., Wadhams, C., U.S. Tinkering in Afghanistan, Boston Globe, Jan. 27, 2008, at E9 Korb, L.J., Pemberton, M., Report of the Task Force on a Unified Security Budget for the United States, FY 2008, Institute for Policy Studies (2007), http://www.ipsdc.org/reports/070426-unifiedsecuritybudget.pdf Korb, L.J., Duggan, S., Afghan War Funds Must be Split Off, Star-Ledger (Newark, N.J.), Dec. 10, 2007, at 15 Korb, L.J., Duggan, S., Set Afghan War Funding Free, Virginian-Pilot (Norfolk, VA), Dec. 9, 2007, at B9

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-2 #:939

Filed 11/19/12 Page 14 of 31 Page ID

Korb, L.J., Duggan, S., Separate Wars in Iraq, Afghanistan, Baltimore Sun, Nov. 30, 2007, at A21 Korb, L.J., Duggan, S.E., An All-Volunteer Army? Recruitment and its Problems, 40 Pol. Sci. & Politics 467 (2007) Podesta, J. et al., Why, How to Get U.S. Out of Iraq ASAP, San Jose Mercury News, Nov. 18, 2007 Podesta, J. et al., Strategic Drift: Where’s the Pushback Against the Surge?, Wash. Post, Nov. 15, 2007, at A25 Korb, L.J., U.S. Ground Forces: Which Way Forward?, 31 Mil. Tech. 22 (2007) Korb, L.J., Wadhams, C., We Need to Refocus on Afghanistan, Newsday (N.Y.), Oct. 9, 2007, at A37 Katulis, B. et al., Strategic Reset: Reclaiming Control of U.S. Security in the Middle East, Center for American Progress (2007), http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2007/06/pdf/iraq_report.pdf Korb, L.J., Bergmann, M.A., How to Withdraw Quickly and Safely, Boston Globe, Sep. 9, 2007, at D9 Korb, L.J., How to Redeploy: Implementing a Responsible Drawdown of U.S. Forces from Iraq, Center for American Progress (2007), http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2007/08/pdf/redeploy_report.pdf Korb, L.J., Beyond the Call of Duty: A Comprehensive Review of the Overuse of the Army in the Administration’s War of Choice in Iraq, Center for American Progress (2007), http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2007/03/pdf/readiness_report.pdf Korb, L.J., Salute and Disobey? The Civil-Military Balance, before Iraq and After: Political Generals, 86 Foreign Affairs 152 (2007) Wheeler, W.T., Korb, L.J., MILITARY REFORM: A REFERENCE HANDBOOK (2007) Korb, L.J., Katulis, B., Exit Iraq and Reset Mideast Strategy, Star-Ledger (Newark, N.J.), Jul. 16, 2007, at 15 Korb, L.J., Katulis, B., U.S. Should Overhaul Iraq Strategy While There’s Bipartisan Agreement, San Jose Mercury News, Jul. 15, 2007 Korb, L.J., Katulis, B., Make a Pullout from Iraq Part of U.S. Strategic Reset, Baltimore Sun, Jul. 11, 2007, at A13 Pemberton, M., Korb, L.J., To Improve Security, Follow the Money, Boston Globe, Jul. 5, 2007, at A9

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-2 #:940

Filed 11/19/12 Page 15 of 31 Page ID

Wadhams, C., Korb, L.J., The Forgotten Front, Center for American Progress (2007), http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2007/11/pdf/afghanistan_report.pdf Korb, L.J., The Wrong Man to Assess the Iraq War: Gen. Petraeus, the Architect of the Surge, Can’t Offer an Unbiased Opinion on its Effectiveness, Star-Ledger (Newark, N.J.), May 30, 2007, at 15 Korb, L.J., Over Here, N.Y. Times, May 27, 2007, at WK10 Korb, L.J., Bergmann, M.A., Bush’s Draft Dodge, L.A. Times, May 26, 2007, at A29 Sorenson, D.S., Korb, L.J., MILITARY BASE CLOSURE (2007) Korb, L.J., A Troop Readiness Crisis, Boston Globe, Apr. 11, 2007, at A9 Korb, L.J., Duggan, S.E., Caught Off Guard: The Link Between Our National Security and Our National Guard, Center for American Progress (2007), http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2007/05/pdf/national_guard.pdf Korb, L.J., Xenakis, S., Troop Morale a Casualty in Iraq, Newsday (N.Y.), Feb. 2, 2007, at A43 Korb, L.J., Burden Should Be Shared, Baltimore Sun, Jan. 9, 2007, at A9 Korb, L.J., Pemberton, M., Report of the Task Force on a Unified Security Budget for the United States, 2007, Center for Defense Information (2006), http://www.fpif.org/fpiftxt/3253 Korb, L.J., Wadhams, C., A CRITIQUE OF THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION’S NATIONAL SECURITY STRATEGY (2006) Korb, L.J., Ogden, P., Rumsfeld’s Pentagon Mismanagement, 21 Defense News 21 (2006) Korb, L.J. et al., RESTORING AMERICAN MILITARY POWER: A PROGRESSIVE QUADRENNIAL DEFENSE REVIEW (2006) Korb, L.J. et al., Marine Corps Equipment After Iraq, Lexington Institute (2006), http://www.lexingtoninstitute.org/docs/800.pdf Korb, L.J., The Imperial Klutz, 17 Am. Prospect 58 (2006) Korb, L.J., Challenging Pentagon politics, Boston Globe, Nov. 2, 2006, at A11 Rangel, C. et al., Should the All-Volunteer Force Be Replaced By Universal, Mandatory National Service?, 85 Congressional Digest 206 (2006) Korb, L.J., Ogden, P., Wrong to Ask More of the Army, Star-Ledger (Newark, N.J.), Sep. 15, 2006, at 17 Korb, L.J., Ogden, P., Why We Can’t Send More Troops, Sun-Sentinel (Fort Lauderdale), Sep. 15, 2006, at A23

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-2 #:941

Filed 11/19/12 Page 16 of 31 Page ID

Korb, L.J., Ogden, P., Why We Can’t Send More Troops, Wash. Post, Sep. 14, 2006, at A21 Korb, L.J., Ogden, P., Jets or GIs? How Best to Address the Military’s Manpower Shortage, 85 Foreign Affairs 153 (2006) Symposium, Is There a Responsible Exit From the Strategic Ambush in Iraq?, Middle East Pol’y 1 (200) Korb, L.J., Trim Spending; Use Savings on National Security, Miami Herald, Jul. 3, 2006, at A25 Kohen, A., Korb, L.J., The World Must Heed the Harsh Lessons of East Timor, Fin. Times, Jun. 30, 2006, at 13 Korb, L.J. et al., Combat Fatigue: Vehicle Wear and Tear in Iraq Jeopardizes U.S. Army Readiness, 143 Armed Forces J. 56 (2006) DVD: INNOVATIVE SOLUTIONS FOR IRAQ (Independent Institute 2006) (available from the Independent Institute, http://www.independent.org/events/detail.asp?eventID=115) Korb, L.J., Strength in Savings, 21 Defense News 29 (2006) Korb, L.J., Ogden, P., G. I. Bills, N.Y. Times, May 29, 2006, at A15 Korb, L.J., Katulis, B., Striking the Right Balance in Iraq, Boston Globe, May 4, 2006, at A11 Mattair, T.R. et al., Is There a Responsible Exit from the Strategic Ambush in Iraq?, 13 Middle East Pol’y 1 (2006) Korb, L.J., Ogden, P., Personal Accountability Demands that Rumsfeld Resign, Baltimore Sun, Apr. 20, 2006, at A15 Korb, L.J., Gottlieb, S., The U.S. Needs to Build a Smarter Military, Not a Bigger Arsenal, Christian Science Monitor, Mar. 23, 2006, at 9 Korb, L.J., There’s No Defense for this Quadrennial Review, Newsday (N.Y.), Feb. 14, 2006, at A31 Korb, L.J., THE GULF AND THE U.S. NATIONAL SECURITY STRATEGY (2005) Korb, L.J., The Pentagon’s New Map: War and Peace in the Twenty-first Century, 58 Naval War College Rev. 151 (2005) Korb, L.J., INTEGRATED POWER: A NATIONAL SECURITY STRATEGY FOR THE 21ST CENTURY (2005) Korb, L.J., Katulis, B., Leaving Iraq, the Right Way, Newday (N.Y.), Nov. 17, 2005, at A39 Korb, L.J., Kohen, A., A Marshall Plan for the Third World, Boston Globe, Nov. 15, 2005, at A17

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-2 #:942

Filed 11/19/12 Page 17 of 31 Page ID

Korb, L.J., Trim Fat From Pentagon Budget to Help Pay for Katrina Relief, Baltimore Sun, Oct. 13, 2005, at A15 Norquist, J., Korb, L.J., Telling It Like It Is, 39 Canadian Dimension 8 (2005) Korb, L.J., National Security in an Age of Terrorists, Tyrants and Weapons of Mass Destruction, Address to the American Constitution Society, Duke University School of Law, (Sep. 21, 2005) (transcript available at http://realserver.law.duke.edu/ramgen/fall05/students/09212005.rm) Korb, L.J., The Best Weapons Money Can Buy, L.A. Times, Aug. 13, 2005, at B19 Korb, L.J., Ogden, P., A Bad Deal With India, Wash. Post, Aug. 3, 2005, at A19 Korb, L.J., The Wrong Fight: Has the “War on Terror” Really Made Us Safer?, 47 Courier 6 (2005) Korb, L.J., Crowley, P.J., Advice for Cheney Cadets, Nation Need Assurance, Denver Post, May 29, 2005, at E1 Korb, L.J., Off Base, N.Y. Times, May 22, 2005, at LI27 Korb, L.J., Billions Wasted on N-Arms, Boston Globe, May 1, 2005, at D11 Korb, L.J., Saving the All-Volunteer Army: Part II, 81 Officer 65 (2005) Korb, L.J., Saving the All-Volunteer Army: Part I, 81 Officer 51 (2005) Korb, L.J., Wadhams, C., U.S. Should Set Example On Limiting Arms Exports, Boston Globe, Mar. 27, 2005, at K11 Korb, L.J., Holmes, N., Two Years and Counting, N.Y. Times, Mar. 20, 2005, at 13 Korb, L.J., All-Volunteer Army Shows Signs of Wear, Atlanta Journal-Constitution, Feb. 27, 2005, at E1 Korb, L.J., BRAC Failed Capacity, Financial Goals, 20 Defense News 29 (2005) Korb, L.J., The Pentagon’s New Math, N.Y. Times, Jan. 11, 2005, at A19 Korb, L.J., Bush Failing at Nuclear Security, Boston Globe, Jan. 2, 2005, at C11 Symposium, Do Democrats Have a Better Game Plan for Protecting U.S. National Security?, 20 Insight on the News 46 (2004) Korb, L.J., The Shadow of Yesterday’s Guard, Star-Telegram, Oct. 1, 2004, at B11 Korb, L.J., Bush’s Policy Endangers U.S. Security, Int’l Herald Tribune, Aug. 9, 2004, at 6

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-2 #:943

Filed 11/19/12 Page 18 of 31 Page ID

Korb, L.J., It’s Time to Bench ‘Team B’: Second-Guessing the CIA has Led the U.S. Astray, L.A. Times, Aug. 8, 2004, at M5 Rangel, C.B. et al., Should Congress Approve Legislation Reinstating the Military Draft?, 83 Congressional Digest 142 (2004) Korb, L.J., Flag Desecration Fissure, Wash. Times, Jun. 29, 2004, at A17 Korb, L.J., Refill the Tanks, Baltimore Sun, May 23, 2004, at C5 Korb, L.J., 11-Step Program for Iraq Failure: The Bush Team is Repeating the Mistakes the U.S. Made in Vietnam, L.A. Times, May 3, 2004, at B13 Korb, L.J., Fixing the Mix – How to Update the Army’s Reserves, 83 Foreign Affairs 2 (2004) Korb, L.J., Quagmire, Star-Ledger (Newark, N.J.), Apr. 11, 2004, at 1 Korb, L.J., After a Crisis, Bush Is No Reagan, L.A. Times, Feb. 11, 2004, at B13 Korb, L.J., The World As It Isn’t, Wall St. J., Feb. 4, 2004, at A16 Korb, L.J., A War of Choice or of Necessity?, Wash. Post, Dec. 8, 2003, at A25 Korb, L.J., Rumsfeld’s Folly, The American Prospect, Nov. 2003, at 49 Korb, L.J., Winning the Peace in the 21st Century: A Task Force Report of the Strategies for U.S. National Security Program, Stanley Foundation (2003), http://www.stanleyfoundation.org Korb, L.J., Overpaying the Pentagon, 14 Am. Prospect 16 (2003) Korb, L.J., Problème de Sécurité Dans un Nouvel Ordre Mondial, 4 Annuaire Français de Relations Internationals 198 (2003) Korb, L.J., The Pentagon’s Eastern Obsession, N.Y. Times, Jul. 30, 2003, at A17 Korb, L.J., Thank Clinton for a Speedy Victory in Iraq, Boston Globe, May 13, 2003, at A15 Korb, L.J., A NEW NATIONAL SECURITY STRATEGY IN AN AGE OF TERRORISTS, TYRANTS, AND WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION: THREE OPTIONS PRESENTED AS PRESIDENTIAL SPEECHES (2003) Korb, L.J., Arms Sales, Health, and Security: A Call for U.S. Leadership, 326 Brit. Med. J. 459 (2003) Korb, L.J., Reshaping America’s Military: Four Alternatives, Council on Foreign Relations (2003), http://www.cfr.org/us-strategy-and-politics/reshaping-americas-military-fouralternatives/p4443

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-2 #:944

Filed 11/19/12 Page 19 of 31 Page ID

Korb, L.J., Bush Has Backed Himself Into a Corner on Iraq, Star-Ledger (Newark, N.J.), Mar. 2, 2003, at 1 Korb, L.J., Steil, B., Bush Doctrine Flunks Test on North Korea, Boston Globe, Jan. 25, 2003, at A15 Korb, L.J., RESHAPING AMERICA’S MILITARY: FOUR ALTERNATIVES PRESENTED AS PRESIDENTIAL SPEECHES (2002) Korb, L.J., Bush Should Endorse Concurrent Benefits, Sun-Sentinel (Fort Lauderdale), Nov. 28, 2002 Korb, L.J., Pay Our Debt to Disabled Vets, Baltimore Sun, Nov. 19, 2002, at A15 Korb, L.J., North Korea’s Nukes, Newsweek, Oct. 18, 2002 Korb, L.J., Crisis of ‘62 Calls to Bush; He should ponder how JFK handled Cuba emergency, L.A. Times, Sep. 19, 2002, at B17 Korb, L.J., Tepperman, J.D., Expanding Special Operations’ Role is Dangerous, L.A. Daily J., Aug. 26, 2002, at 6 Korb, L.J. et al., Arms Spending Instead of Basic Aid Budget Priorities, Int’l Herald Tribune, Aug. 22, 2002, at 6 Korb, L.J., Tepperman, J.D., Soldiers Should Not Be Spying, N.Y. Times, Aug. 21, 2002, at A17 Symposium, China’s Military Build Up and The United States, 18 Insight on the News 40 (2002) Symposium, Is China’s Rapid Military Buildup Threatening U.S. Interests in East Asia?, 18 Insight on the News 40 (2002) Audio tape: Panel on the Carlyle Group, held by WAMU-FM (May 16, 2002) Korb, L.J., Are U.S. Forces Unprepared and Underfunded? Fact and Fiction, 55 Naval War College Rev. 29 (2002) Korb, L.J., Why the Pentagon Can’t Modernize, Wash. Post, Apr. 26, 2002, at A29 Korb, L.J., Bush Is Inflating Pentagon’s Budget, Newsday (N.Y.), Jan. 29, 2002, at A29 Korb, L.J., Somalia: Finishing an Old Job While Fighting New Terrorism, Milwaukee J. Sentinel, Jan. 20, 2002, at J3 Korb, L.J., Somalia: Terrorists’ Next Stop?, L.A. Times, Jan. 7, 2002, at 2.11 Korb, L.J., Pentagon Still Frozen in Cold War Posture, Baltimore Sun, Dec. 21, 2001, at A25

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-2 #:945

Filed 11/19/12 Page 20 of 31 Page ID

Korb, L.J., Tiersky, A., The End of Unilateralism? Arms Control After September 11, 31 Arms Control Today 3 (2001) Moskos, C., Korb, L.J., Time to Bring Back the Draft?, 12 Am. Enterprise 16 (2001) Korb, L.J., U.S. Must Realize There Are No Quick Fixes, Boston Globe, Sep. 13, 2001, at A101 Korb, L.J., It’s Not the Budget, It’s the Generals, Wash. Post, Sep. 4, 2001, at A19 Korb, L.J., Hillen, J., Special Address by the President: Capitol Hill, September 1st, 2001, 34 Am. Spectator 40 (2001) Korb, L.J., Reagan’s Good Example on Missile Defense, Boston Globe, Aug. 13, 2001, at A11 Korb, L.J., More for Defense? Why?, San Diego Union-Tribune, Aug. 1, 2001, at B7 Korb, L.J., A Policy for the Timid, Wash. Post, Jun. 19, 2001, at A21 Korb, L.J., Improving the Military, 18 Issues in Sci. and Tech. 6 (2001) Korb, L.J., 10 Myths About the Defense Budget, In These Times, April 2, 2001, at 10 Korb, L.J., Bush’s First Battle: His Own Military Myths, L.A. Times, Mar. 11, 2001, at M2 Korb, L.J., Bad Cuts, 80 Foreign Affairs 150 (2001) Korb, L.J., Sink the Stealth Ship–Before It’s Built, N.Y. Times, Jan. 15, 2001, at A15 Korb, L.J., Reining In Defense, Wash. Post, Dec. 29, 2000, at A33 Korb, L.J., The Budget Could be Cut by $60 Billion, Boston Globe, Oct. 8, 2000, at D8 Korb, L.J., Defining the New World Order, in SECURITY, TRADE, AND ENVIRONMENTAL POLICY: A US/EUROPEAN UNION TRANSATLANTIC AGENDA 37 (Charles Bonser ed., 2000) Korb, L.J., Russia Must Realize It’s No Military Might, Milwaukee J. Sentinel, Aug. 23, 2000, at A17 Korb, L.J., Russia’s No Longer Up to the Role of Superpower, Houston Chron., Aug. 22, 2000, at A21 Korb, L.J., Submarine Kursk Tragedy Is a Sad Metaphor for the Decline of Russia’s Military, Saint Paul Pioneer Press, Aug. 22, 2000, at A7 Korb, L.J., The Lessons of the Kursk, L.A. Times, Aug. 20, 2000, at M1 Korb, L.J., The Pentagon is Doing Less With More, San Diego Union-Tribune, Jul. 14, 2000, at B9

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-2 #:946

Filed 11/19/12 Page 21 of 31 Page ID

Korb, L.J., Crash Should Be Final Blow to Osprey, Dallas Morning News, Apr. 12, 2000, at A21 Korb, L.J., The Plane That Nobody Wanted, N.Y. Times, Apr. 11, 2000, at A29 Korb, L.J., Money for Nothing – A Penny Saved, Not a Penny Earned, in the U.S. Military, 79 Foreign Affairs 149 (2000) Korb, L.J., Force is the Issue, 32 Government Executive 31 (2000) Korb, L.J., We Must Act Fast to Police U.S. Soldiers on Foreign Soil, Newsday (N.Y.), Mar. 15, 2000, at A44 Korb, L.J., A REALISTIC DEFENSE BUDGET FOR THE NEW MILLENNIUM (2000) Blacker, C., Korb, L.J., No Evidence to Support Banning Gays in Military, Houston Chron., Jan. 14, 2000, at 35 Blacker, C., Korb, L.J., Military Tolerance Works, N.Y. Times, Jan. 13, 2000, at A29 Korb, L.J., F-22 Jet Would Be a $200M Relic, Boston Globe, Sep. 23, 1999, at A23 Korb, L.J., Cold War Is Over, San Jose Mercury News, Aug. 23, 1999, at B6 Korb, L.J., Guns or Butter?, L.A. Times, Aug. 2, 1999, at B5 Korb, L.J., Why One Vote Won’t Kill the F-22, N.Y. Times, Jul. 26, 1999, at A15 Audio tape: Panel on Gays in the Military, held by WAMU-FM (1999) Korb, L.J., U.S. Missile Shield Would Be Provocative, Newsday (N.Y.), May 12, 1999, at A39 Korb, L.J., What Missile Shortage?, Plain Dealer (Cleveland, OH), Apr. 7, 1999, at B11 Korb, L.J., Not Enough Cruise Missiles to Go Around?, N.Y. Times, Apr. 6, 1999, at A27 Korb, L.J., Billions of Dollars in Spending Are Based on Faulty Assumptions: Seven Costly Myths About National Defense, San Jose Mercury News, Mar. 10, 1999, at B7 Korb, L.J., Israel and the Bomb, N.Y. Times Book Review, Nov. 1, 1998, at 29 (book review) Korb, L.J., The quiet bomb, N.Y. Times Book Review, Nov. 1, 1998, at 29 (book review) Hillen, J., Korb, L.J., FUTURE VISIONS FOR U.S. DEFENSE POLICY: FOUR ALTERNATIVES PRESENTED AS PRESIDENTIAL SPEECHES (1998) Korb, L.J., Defense: Add Thought, Then Moneyreader Forum, Oregonian (Portland, OR), Sep. 28, 1998, at B11 Korb, L.J., Money to Burn at the Pentagon, N.Y. Times, Sep. 25, 1998, at A27

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-2 #:947

Filed 11/19/12 Page 22 of 31 Page ID

Korb, L.J., My Navy Too, 51 Naval War College Rev. 160 (1998) Videotape: America’s Defense Monitor: The Human Cost of America’s Sales (Center for Defense Information 1998) Korb, L.J., Exaggerated Expenses, Wash. Post, May 14, 1998, at A23 Korb, L.J., Defense Mega-Mergers Weaken the Nation, St. Louis Post-Dispatch, May 6, 1998, at B7 Korb, L.J., These Mergers Don’t Help Our Defense, Dallas Morning News, May 4, 1998, at A15 Korb, L.J., Tribal Warfare, 30 Washington Monthly 52 (1998) Korb, L.J., Defense Mega-Mergers Weaken the U.S., Newsday (N.Y.), Apr. 28, 1998, at A33 Korb, L.J., Unwinnable Wars: American Power and Ethnic Conflict, 30 Washington Monthly, Mar. 1998, at 52 (book review) Korb, L.J., Downsize the Military, Boston Globe, Jan. 21, 1998, at A15 Korb, L.J., Pentagon Reform: No Initiative Will Succeed Until Major Questions Are Answered, Dallas Morning News, Dec. 4, 1997, at A35 Korb, L.J., Start With logic to Put the Pentagon on a Businesslike Footing: The Highly Touted Business Approach to Savings, Such as Base Closures, Skips the Essential Management Mission, L.A. Times, Nov. 25, 1997, at B7 Korb, L.J., Flag Amendment Imperils Freedom, Milwaukee J. Sentinel, Jun. 29, 1997, at 3 Korb, L.J., Our Principles Must Come Before Our Symbols, L.A. Times, Jun. 16, 1997, at B5 Korb, L.J., Why Europe Has Its Eye on the Boeing Deal, Christian Science Monitor, Jun. 11, 1997, at 19 Korb, L.J., Pentagon Won’t Abandon a Flawed Goal, Dallas Morning News, May 26, 1997, at A27 Korb, L.J., The Pentagon’s War on Thrift, N.Y. Times, May 22, 1997, at A25 Korb, L.J., Defense Addiction: Can America Kick the Habit?, 29 Washington Monthly 60 (1997) Edwards, M. et al., FINANCING AMERICA’S LEADERSHIP: PROTECTING AMERICAN INTERESTS AND PROMOTING AMERICAN VALUES: REPORT OF AN INDEPENDENT TASK FORCE (1997) Korb, L.J., Hooked On Hardware, 29 Washington Monthly 60 (1997) Korb, L.J., The Myth of the Two-Front War: Over-Preparing for a Two-Front War that Will Almost Certainly Never Occur is Costing Us Billions, 29 Washington Monthly 23 (1997)

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-2 #:948

Filed 11/19/12 Page 23 of 31 Page ID

Korb, L.J., The Use of Force, 15 Brookings Rev. 24 (1997) Korb, L.J., More Than Ready for Two Desert Storms, Wash. Post, Jan. 29, 1997, at A21 Jablonsky, D. et al., U.S. NATIONAL SECURITY BEYOND THE COLD WAR (1997) Korb, L.J., THE MILITARY AND SOCIAL CHANGE (1996) Korb, L.J., There’s a Real Down Side to ‘McBoeing’ Merger, Houston Chron., Dec. 26, 1996, at A37 Korb, L.J., A Military Monopoly, N.Y. Times, Dec. 21, 1996, at N19 Korb, L.J., O’Hanlon, M., Boost Europe’s NATO Profile, 11 Defense News 32 (1996) Korb, L.J., Shanahan, J.J., Should We Pay $219 Billion for This Plane?, Christian Science Monitor, Nov. 25, 1996, at 19 Korb, L.J., Merger Mania: Should the Pentagon Pay for Defense Industry Restructuring?, 14 Brookings Rev. 22-25 (1996) Korb, L.J., Holding the Bag in the Gulf, N.Y. Times, Sep. 18, 1996, at A21 Korb, L.J., Senate Should Join House to Curb Defense “Welfare”, Christian Science Monitor, Sep. 12, 1996, at 19 Korb, L.J., Defense Cuts the Easy Way – Reply, 75 Foreign Affairs 179 (1996) Korb, L.J., America’s Defense Budget: Our Overstuffed Armed Forces, 2281 Current 21 (1996) Videotape: U.S. Defense Spending and Military Readiness in the Aftermath of the Cold War, (U.S. Dept. of State, Video Production Unit Jul. 31, 1996) Korb, L.J., Accountability That Reaches to the Top, Wash. Times, Jul. 14, 1996, at B3 Korb, L.J., Military Spending: Though Cold War is Over, You Can’t Tell by Budget, Dallas Morning News, May 19, 1996, at J5 Korb, L.J., Throwing Money at Cold War Relics, San Diego Union-Tribune, May 17, 1996, at B7 Korb, L.J., Cold War is Over, and the Winner is the Pentagon, Baltimore Sun, May 15, 1996, at A17 Korb, L.J., Defense Conversion, Transforming The Arsenal of Democracy, 12 Issues in Sci. and Tech. 75 (1996) Korb, L.J., Defense Policy, the Budget and Brookings, Wash. Times, Mar. 19, 1996, at A17

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-2 #:949

Filed 11/19/12 Page 24 of 31 Page ID

Korb, L.J., Today’s Army is a Different Breed, Some of it Repugnant, L.A. Times, Dec. 18, 1995, at B5 Korb, L.J., Military Metamorphosis, 12 Issues in Sci. and Tech. 75 (1995) Korb, L.J., Our Overstuffed Armed Forces, 74 Foreign Affairs 22 (1995) Korb, L.J., U.S. is the Top Arms Merchant, and it Can Come Back to Haunt Us, Philadelphia Inquirer, Oct. 18, 1995, at A19 Korb, L.J., The Biggest Arms Seller, San Jose Mercury News, Oct. 18, 1995, at B7 Korb, L.J., A New World Order: Military Budgets Still Increasing In Cold War Era, Chicago Sun-Times, Aug. 12, 1995, at 14 Korb, L.J., The Cold War Ended, but the Spending Didn’t, Baltimore Sun, Jul. 20, 1995, at A15 Korb, L.J., Defense Establishment Still Stuck in Cold War, Dallas Morning News, Jul. 12, 1995, at A23 Korb, L.J., Peace Without Dividend: Why We Can’t Seem to Cut the Defense Budget, Wash. Post, Jul. 9, 1995, at C1 Korb, L.J., Defense Budget Madness, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, Jul. 9, 1995, at F1 Korb, L.J., That Shrinking Defense Budget Isn’t Shrinking at All, Philadelphia Inquirer, Jul. 8, 1995, at A7 Korb, L.J., Rogue States and Nuclear Outlaws: America’s Search for a New Foreign Policy, N.Y. Times Book Review, May 28, 1995, at 2 (book review) Korb, L.J., Bridled Ambition: Why Countries Constrain Their Nuclear Capabilities, N.Y. Times Book Review, May 28, 1995, at 2 (book review) Korb, L.J., The Spread of Nuclear Weapons: A Debate, N.Y. Times Book Review, May 28, 1995, at 2 (book review) Korb, L.J., The Bomb in the New World Order, N.Y. Times Book Review, May 28, 1995, at 2 (book review) David, C.P. et al., AMERICA’S QUEST FOR A NEW CONTRACT WITH THE WORLD (1995) Korb, L.J., Who’s in Charge Here? National security and the Contract with America, 13 Brookings Rev. 4 (1995) Korb, L.J., Osburn, C.D., Asked, Told, Pursued, N.Y. Times, Mar. 19, 1995, at E15 Korb, L.J., The Readiness Gap. What gap?, N.Y. Times, Feb. 26, 1995, at 40

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-2 #:950

Filed 11/19/12 Page 25 of 31 Page ID

Korb, L.J., The Republicans Up in Arms, Wash. Post, Jan. 31, 1995, at A15 Korb, L.J., NATO Has Outlived Its Usefulness, St. Louis Post-Dispatch, Dec. 11, 1994, at B3 Korb, L.J., NATO Has Outlived Its Usefulness, Newsday (N.Y.), Dec. 6, 1994, at A27 Korb, L.J., Clinton’s Foreign Policy Woes: A Way Out, 12 Brookings Rev. 3 (1994) Defense Priorities (PBS Adult Learning Satellite Service Jul. 25, 1994) Korb, L.J., Don’t Politicize Helicopter Tragedy in Iraq, Christian Science Monitor, May 19, 1994, at 19 Korb, L.J., Grumman Deal Aside, Defense Is Waning, Newsday (N.Y.), Apr. 19, 1994, at A33 Korb, L.J., Is the U.S. defense budget being cut too much?, 8 International Economy 10 (1994) Korb, L.J., Shock Therapy for the Pentagon, N.Y. Times, Feb. 15, 1994, at A21 Korb, L.J., Army is Defending a Way of Life, 67 Pol’y Rev. 95 (1994) Korb, L.J., Clinton, Congress Cowed By Military, Oregonian (Portland, OR), Jan. 31, 1994, at B5 Korb, L.J., Clinton Has No Need to Woo U.S. Military, Christian Science Monitor, Jan. 19, 1994, at 23 Korb, L.J., Against Arrows, A Shield of Gossamer, L.A. Times, Jan. 19, 1994, at B9 Korb, L.J., Clinton Faces Budget War With Pentagon, Plain Dealer (Cleveland, OH), December 26, 1993, at C6 Korb, L.J., Clinton Needs Help to Keep Pentagon at Bay, Oregonian (Portland, OR), Dec. 21, 1993, at D5 Korb, L.J., Les No More: How the Pentagon Undid the Defense Secretary, Wash. Post, Dec. 19, 1993, at C3 Korb, L.J., A Woman’s Place is In the Pentagon, N.Y. Times, Aug. 9, 1993, at A15 Korb, L.J., The President and the Military at Odds, 11 Brookings Rev. 5 (1993) Korb, L.J., Less Than He Could Be, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, Jul. 25, 1993, at C4 Korb, L.J., Les is Less: When the Going Gets Tough for Clinton, Defense Secretary Aspin Just Gets Gone, Wash. Post, Jul. 18, 1993, at C2 Korb, L.J., Clinton’s National Security Challenge, 22 Pub. Manager 9 (1993)

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-2 #:951

Filed 11/19/12 Page 26 of 31 Page ID

Jordan, A.A. et al., AMERICAN NATIONAL SECURITY: POLICY AND PROCESS (4th ed. 1993) Korb, L.J., Shrinking Our Defenses, 71 Harvard Bus. Rev. 133 (1993) Korb, L.J., Clinton Must Act Quickly to Let Gays into Military, Atlanta Journal Constitution, Nov. 22, 1992, at B1 A Media View of the Campaign (C-SPAN Nov. 5, 1992) Korb, L.J., Kupperman, R.H., Abolish the Disaster Agency, N.Y. Times, Sep. 6, 1992, at E11 Korb, L.J., Real Defense Cuts–and the Real Defense Issues, 22 Arms Control Today 5 (1992) McNamara, R.S., Korb, L.J., Cut Defense Budget Deeper, Faster, Chicago Tribune, Jun. 7, 1992, at 4.2 Korb, L.J., Small Wars, Big Defense: Paying for the Military After the Cold War, Wall St. J., Apr. 1, 1992, at A14 (book review) Korb, L.J., Downsizing the Military, But Not Too Much, Wall St. J., Apr. 1, 1992, at A14 (book review) Korb, L.J., U.S. Arms Industry Keeps on Rollin’, Christian Science Monitor, Jan. 30, 1992, at 18 Korb, L.J., Lots of Solutions, Faint Hope of Success, L.A. Times, Jan. 24, 1992, at B7 Korb, L.J., National Security Affairs: A Defense Department Perspective, in EXECUTIVE LEADERSHIP IN ANGLO-AMERICAN SYSTEMS 281 (Colin Campbell and Margaret Jane Wyszomirski eds., 1991) Korb, L.J., Spending Machine is Stuck in High Gear, L.A. Times, Nov. 26, 1991, at B7 Videotape: Saddam Hussein vs. The Coalition, (ABC News 1991) Korb, L.J., Is it Time for a U.S. Military Buildup? No, San Diego Union-Tribune, Aug. 20, 1991, at B9 Korb, L.J., This Time the Military Got It Right, 9 Brookings Rev. 5 (1991) Korb, L.J., “Barons” Offers Lessons for Today, USA Today, Jun. 25, 1991, at B8 Korb, L.J., Involving Ex-Im Bank is Wrong, San Diego Union-Tribune, May 19, 1991, at C4 Korb, L.J., Is the Pentagon Ringing Up Gulf War Charges Too High?, Oregonian (Portland, OR), Apr. 5, 1991, at B7 Korb, L.J., Padding the Gulf War Bill, N.Y. Times, Apr. 4, 1991, at A23

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-2 #:952

Filed 11/19/12 Page 27 of 31 Page ID

Korb, L.J., Both a Peace Dividend and a Strong Defense are Still Possible, San Diego UnionTribune, Feb. 24, 1991, at C7 Korb, L.J., Cold-War Remnants in the Military Budget, St. Louis Post-Dispatch, Feb. 20, 1991, at C3 Korb, L.J., War Costs Shouldn’t Add to Public Burden, Oregonian (Portland, OR), Jan. 30, 1991, at B11 Korb, L.J., Relax Taxpayers, This War’s Weaponry is Paid For, L.A. Times, Jan. 27, 1991, at M2 Korb, L.J., The 1991 Defense Budget, in SETTING NATIONAL PRIORITIES: POLICY FOR THE NINETIES 111 (Henry Aaron ed., 1990) Videotape: Defense programs in the 90’s (American River College 1990) Korb, L.J., Gulf Buildup Works to Protect Pentagon Budget, St. Petersburg Times (FL), Nov. 28, 1990, at A20 Korb, L.J., The ‘War’ Inside the Pentagon; How Military Competition Can Hurt the American Mission in the Gulf, Wash. Post, Nov. 25, 1990, at C4 Korb, L.J., Alternative Views of the Future: Commentary, in BALANCING ACT–DEBT, DEFICITS, AND TAXES 95 (John Makin et al., eds., 1990) Korb, L.J., The End of the Cold War and Declining Military Expenditures, 13 Disarmament: A Periodic Review 1 (1990) Korb, L.J., The Reserves; Should They Be in the Front Lines?, Christian Science Monitor, Oct. 1, 1990, at 19 Korb, L.J., Blank Check: The Pentagon’s Black Budget, N.Y. Times Book Review, Sep. 16, 1990, at 28 (book review) Korb, L.J., $36 Billion Worth of Secrets, N.Y. Times Book Review, Sep. 16, 1990, at 28 (book review) Korb, L.J., Cap The Knave: Reagan’s Longtime Secretary of Defense is Out to Rewrite History, 22 Washington Monthly 50 (1990) Korb, L.J., Fighting for Peace: Seven Critical Years in the Pentagon, 22 Washington Monthly 50 (1990) Korb, L.J., We Can Afford to Fight Iraq, N.Y. Times, Aug. 21, 1990, at A27 Korb, L.J., Don’t Reserve The Navy, 54 Pol’y Rev. 94 (1990)

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-2 #:953

Filed 11/19/12 Page 28 of 31 Page ID

Korb, L.J., A Shield in Space? Technology, Politics, and the Strategic Defense Initiative: How the Reagan Administration Set Out to Make Nuclear Weapons “Impotent and Obsolete” and Succumbed to the Fallacy of the Last Move, N.Y. Times Book Review, Feb. 4, 1990, at 9 (book review) Korb, L.J., The Star Wars Mess, N.Y. Times Book Review, Feb. 4, 1990, at 9 (book review) Korb, L.J., Playing the Numbers on the Defense Budget, Wash. Post, Dec. 3, 1989, at C1 Korb, L.J., How to Reduce Military Spending, N.Y. Times, Nov. 21, 1989, at A25 Kaufman, W.W., Korb, L.J., THE 1990 DEFENSE BUDGET (1989) Jordan, A.A. et al., AMERICAN NATIONAL SECURITY: POLICY AND PROCESS (3rd ed. 1989) Korb, L.J., What Has the Gulf War Taught Us?, Newsday (N.Y.), Sep. 19, 1988, at 59 Korb, L.J., Wild Blue Yonder: Money, Politics and the B-1 Bomber, Wall. St. J., Mar. 18, 1988, at 24 Korb, L.J., Winging It: The Politics of Procurement, Wall. St. J., Mar. 18, 1988 Korb, L.J., The Reagan Defense Budget and Program: The Buildup That Collapsed, in ASSESSING THE REAGAN YEARS 83 (David Boaz ed., 1988) Korb, L.J., Ordeal of PPBS in the Pentagon, 17 Bureaucrat 19 (1988) Korb, L.J., Spending Without Strategy – The FY 1988 Annual Defense-Department Report, 12 Int’l Security 166 (1987) Korb, L.J., Pro and Con Antisatellite Weapons, Wash. Post, Aug. 16, 1987, at X4 Korb, L.J., Daggett, S., Too Soon to Lift U.S. ‘Goalie’ in NATO, Globe and Mail (Canada), June 9, 1987 Korb, L.J., Military Planners Must Make Hard Choices, Miami Herald, May 31, 1987, at F4 Korb, L.J., A Blueprint for Defense Spending, Wall. St. J., May 20, 1987, at 34 Korb, L.J., Sacred Cows and Scarce Defense Dollars, L.A. Times, Jul. 31, 1986, at 5 Korb, L.J., Smoker’s Choice in the Military, Wash. Post, Feb. 1, 1986, at A17 Korb, L.J., DOD Assistance in the War on Drugs, 52 Police Chief 57 (1985) Rudman, W.R., Korb, L.J., Military Personnel Levels: Bloated or Needed for the Job?, Wall St. J., May 22, 1985, at 32

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-2 #:954

Filed 11/19/12 Page 29 of 31 Page ID

Korb, L.J., Brady, L.P., Rearming America – The Reagan Administration Defense Program, 9 Int’l Security 3 (1985) Korb, L.J., Subsidizing Readiness, Not Retirement: The High Cost of Military Pensions, N.Y. Times, Feb. 17, 1985, at F2 Korb, L.J., The Pentagon and the Homeless: Progress, Wash. Post, Oct. 13, 1984, at A15 Korb, L.J., Defense Dollars Aren’t for Sharing Alike, N.Y. Times, Aug. 26, 1984, at E20 Korb, L.J., Volunteer Military: Misreading the Trends, Wash. Post, Aug. 18, 1984, at A17 Korb, L.J., A New GI Bill: Not Essential, Wash. Post, Jun. 26, 1984, at A12 Korb, L.J., America’s Reserves of Strength, Wall St. J., May 3, 1984, at 29 Korb, L.J., Recruiting: Good News and Bad, Wash. Post, Dec. 9, 1983, at A22 Korb, L.J., Policing Up the Area, Wall St. J., Aug. 9, 1983, at 33 Korb, L.J. et al., STATEMENT OF THE ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF DEFENSE, MANPOWER, RESERVE AFFAIRS, AND LOGISTICS HEARINGS BEFORE THE SENATE APPROPRIATIONS COMMITTEE, SUBCOMMITTEE ON TREASURY, POSTAL SERVICE AND GENERAL GOVERNMENT, THE SENATE BORDER CAUCUS AND MEMBERS OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES (1983) Seamans, R.C. et al., REPORT OF THE DOD-UNIVERSITY FORUM WORKING GROUP ON ENGINEERING AND SCIENCE EDUCATION (1983) Korb, L.J., THE AIR FORCE AND NAVY SHOULD HAVE COORDINATED AND BETTER MANAGED THEIR HUSH HOUSE PROGRAMS (1983) Dudney, R.S., Where Women Will Fit in the New Army, Interview with Lawrence J. Korb, Assistant Secretary of Defense for Manpower, in U.S. News & World Report, October 4, 1982, at 53 Korb, L.J., Office of the Assistant Secretary of Defense, PROFILE OF AMERICAN YOUTH (1982) Audio tape: America’s Armed Forces, held by Joint Center for Political Studies, Inc. (1982) Korb, L.J., A New Look at United States Defense Industrial Preparedness, 17 Def. Mgmt. J. 2 (1981) Coe, C.K. et al., Life Cycle Costing by State Governments, 41 Pub. Admin. Rev. 564 (1981) Buck, J.H., Korb, L.J., MILITARY LEADERSHIP (1981) Korb, L.J., National Security Policy Organization in Perspective, Am. Enterprise Inst. for Pol’y and Def. (1981)

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-2 #:955

Filed 11/19/12 Page 30 of 31 Page ID

Laird, M.R., Korb, L.J., Do We Need the Draft–or Can We Fix the All-Volunteer Force?, 18 Across the Board 5 (1981) Puritano, V., Korb, L.J., Streamlining PPBS to Better Manage National Defense, 41 Pub. Admin. Rev. 569 (1981) Korb, L.J., The History of the Joint Chiefs of Staff – The Joint Chiefs of Staff and National Policy, 45 Mil. Affairs 97 (1981) Korb, L.J., THE ROLE OF THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF IN THE STRATEGIC ARMS LIMITATION PROCESS (1981) Kronenberg, P.S. et al., PLANNING U.S. SECURITY (1981) Korb, L.J., The FY 1981-1985 Defense Program: Issues and Trends, 2 Am. Enterprise Inst. for Pol’y and Def. 2 (1980) Laird, M.R., Korb, L.J., THE PROBLEM OF MILITARY READINESS (1980) Korb, L.J., The Executive and the Joint Chiefs, 17 Society 56 (1980) Korb, L.J., George Whalen Anderson, Jr., The Chiefs of Naval Operations 320 (1980) Korb, L.J., The Changing World of the American-Military, 74 Am. Pol. Sci. Rev. 209 (1980) Korb, L.J., The Case for the MX, 31 Air Univ. Rev. 2 (1980) Korb, L.J., THE FALL AND RISE OF THE PENTAGON: AMERICAN DEFENSE POLICIES IN THE 1970’S, (1979) Korb, L.J., The FY 1980-1984 Defense Program: Issues and Trends, 1 Am. Enterprise Inst. for Pol’y and Def. 2 (1979) Brown, G., Korb, L.J., THE ECONOMIC AND POLITICAL CONSTRAINTS UPON SIZING U.S. FORCES TO MEET THE REALITIES OF THE FORCE PLANNING ENVIRONMENT (1979) Korb, L.J., Defense Budgetary Process – Process And Problems of Linking Policy and Force Structure Through the Defense Budget Process, 8 Pol’y Studies J. 92 (1979) Korb, L.J., THE FY 1979-1983 DEFENSE PROGRAM: ISSUES AND TRENDS (1978) Korb, L.J. et al., THE UNITED STATES DEFENSE BUDGET (1978) Korb, L.J., Unsupported Inferences, 38 Public Admin. Rev. 298 (1978) Korb, L.J., Organizational and Political Problems of Implementing Change in Governmental Organizations, 18 Educ. Tech. 45 (1978) Korb, L.J., Letter to the Editor, N.Y. Times, Dec. 15, 1977, at 30

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-2 #:956

Filed 11/19/12 Page 31 of 31 Page ID

Korb, L.J., THE PRICE OF PREPAREDNESS: THE FY 1978-1982 DEFENSE PROGRAM (1977) Korb, L.J., Budget Process in Department-of-Defense, 1947-77 – Strengths and Weaknesses of Three Systems, 37 Pub. Admin. Rev. 334 (1977) Penner, R.G., Korb, L.J., THE 1978 BUDGET IN TRANSITION: FROM FORD TO CARTER TO CONGRESS (1976) Korb, L.J., Defense Policy Formulation – Comparative Analysis of McNamara Era, 4 J. of Pol. & Mil. Soc. 328 (1976) Korb, L.J., THE SYSTEM FOR EDUCATING MILITARY OFFICERS IN THE U.S. (1976) Korb, L.J., THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: THE FIRST TWENTY-FIVE YEARS (1976) Korb, L.J., Politics of Defense Analysis, 4 J. of Pol. & Mil. Soc. 328 (1976) Korb, L.J., How Much is Enough – Shaping Defense Program, 1961–1969, 4 J. of Pol. & Mil. Soc. 328 (1976) Korb, L.J., Control of Naval Armaments – Prospects and Possibilities, 138 World Affairs 246 (1976) Korb, L.J., Military in American Politics, 2 J. of Pol. & Mil. Soc. 146 (1974) Ott, D.J. et al., NIXON, MCGOVERN AND THE FEDERAL BUDGET (1972) Korb, L.J., The Role of the Joint Chiefs of Staff in the Defense Budget Process From 1947 to 1967 (1969) (Ph.D. Thesis, State University of New York at Albany) Korb, L.J., The Truman-MacArthur controversy over the Korean War (1962) (M.A. Thesis, St. John’s University)

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-3

Filed 11/19/12 Page 1 of 2 Page ID #:957

EXHIBIT C

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-3

Filed 11/19/12 Page 2 of 2 Page ID #:958

KORB BIBLIOGRAPHY Michael J. Jackonis, et al., War, Its Aftermath, and U.S. Health Policy: Toward a Comprehensive Health Program for America’s Military Personnel, Veterans, and Their Families, 36 J.L. Med. & Ethics 677 (2008) Maj. Jonathan T. Petty, School of Advanced Military Studies, United States Army command and General Staff College, Facing the Long War: Factors that Lead Soldiers to Stay in the Army Despite Persistent Conflict (2011) Joyce Wessel Raezer, Transforming Support to Military Families and Communities, in Filling the Ranks: Transforming the U.S. Military Personnel System (Cindy Williams ed., 2004) Bernard D. Rastker & Curtis L. Gilroy, The Transition to an All-Volunteer Force: The U.S. Experience, in Service to Country: Personnel Policy and the Transformation of Western Militaries (Curtis L. Gilroy & Cindy Williams eds., 2006)

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-4 #:959

Filed 11/19/12 Page 1 of 34 Page ID

EXHIBIT D

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-4 #:960

Filed 11/19/12 Page 2 of 34 Page ID
[Page 1]

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT CENTRAL DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA Western Division --------------------------------X TRACEY COOPER-HARRIS and ) MAGGIE COOPER-HARRIS Plaintiffs, v. UNITED STATES OF AMERICA; ERIC H. HOLDER, JR., in his official capacity as Attorney General; and ERIC K. SHINSEKI, in his official capacity as Secretary of Veterans Affairs, Defendants, ) ) ) Case No. ) CV12-887 CBM (AJWx) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) BIPARTISAN LEGAL ADVISORY GROUP OF THE U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, Intervenor) ) ) ) Pgs. 1 - 107

Defendant. ) --------------------------------X DEPOSITION OF LAWRENCE JOSEPH KORB, SR., PH.D. Washington, D.C. Tuesday, October 16, 2012 Reported by: Cindy L. Sebo, RMR, CRR, RPR, CSR, CCR, CLR, RSA

877-479-2484

U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT

www.uslegalsupport.com

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-4 #:961
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Filed 11/19/12 Page 3 of 34 Page ID
[Page 2]

October 16, 2012 9:32 a.m.

Deposition of LAWRENCE JOSEPH KORB, SR., PH.D. held at the law offices of:

Bancroft PLLC 1919 M Street, Northwest Suite 470 Washington, D.C. 20036

Pursuant to notice, before Cindy L. Sebo, Registered Merit Reporter, Certified Real-Time Reporter, Registered Professional Reporter, Certified Shorthand Reporter, Certified Court Reporter, Certified LiveNote Reporter, Real-Time Systems Administrator and a Notary Public in and for the District of Columbia.
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

877-479-2484

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-4 #:962
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
877-479-2484

Filed 11/19/12 Page 4 of 34 Page ID
[Page 3]

A P P E A R A N C E S: For the Plaintiffs: ADAM P. ROMERO, ESQUIRE WilmerHale 7 World Trade Center 250 Greenwich Street New York, New York 10007 212.295.6422 adam.romero@wilmerhale.com -andCHRISTINE P. SUN, ESQUIRE CAREN E. SHORT, ESQUIRE Southern Poverty Law Center 400 Washington Avenue Montgomery, Alabama 36104 334.956.8450 christine.sun@splcenter.org caren.short@splcenter.org

U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT

www.uslegalsupport.com

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-4 #:963
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
877-479-2484

Filed 11/19/12 Page 5 of 34 Page ID
[Page 4]

A P P E A R A N C E S (Continued): For the Defendants: JEAN LIN, ESQUIRE United States Department of Justice 20 Massachusetts Avenue, Northwest Washington, DC 20530 202.514.3716 jean.lin@doj.gov

For the Intervenor-Defendant: MARY BETH WALKER, ESQUIRE Office of General Counsel 219 Cannon Building Washington, D.C. 20515 202.225.9700 marybeth.walker@mail.house.gov -andMICHAEL H. MCGINLEY, ESQUIRE Bancroft PLLC 1919 M Street, Northwest, Suite 470 Washington, D.C. 20036 202.234.0090 mmcginley@bancroftpllc.com ALSO PRESENT: THOMAS M. SUNDLOF, U.S. House of
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-4 #:964
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Filed 11/19/12 Page 6 of 34 Page ID
[Page 13]

specifically"? A. Well, I spend all of my time working

on the whole issue of maintaining a highly qualified active duty force. So I'm constantly

reviewing things that -- studies and things that contribute to, you know, maintaining a high-quality volunteer force. Q. And do you recall if any of those

documents that you reviewed dealt specifically with Title 38 or DOMA? A. None -- the documents I reviewed

basically deal with how to get and keep a strong military and how we should treat people fairly. Going back to my days when I was in charge of retention on active duty when I was in the Navy, that was my one of my collateral duties, and tried to figure out what was the thing that got men and -- well, they're mostly men then; women were restricted -- and what they could do to come into the military or -- and stay in the military. And, obviously, one of the considerations was how their families would be treated if something happened to them. Back in the '70s when I was at American Enterprise Institute, I worked with
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

877-479-2484

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-4 #:965
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Filed 11/19/12 Page 7 of 34 Page ID
[Page 14]

Secretary of Defense Laird, who was the Secretary of Defense under Nixon, who ended conscription and created the volunteer military because he was concerned that it wasn't working as well. And I wrote a paper for him called People, Not Hardware Are Highest Priority. And

then we did another study on military readiness. And then, of course, when I came into the Reagan Administration, we had to save the volunteer -volunteer military. And so I looked at studies, spoke with, you know, military -- military people. that was when the Chief of Staff of the Army, General Meyer, used the term referred to in a couple of studies that I cite, that we recruit individuals, we retain families. I'm the cochairman of the board of the National Military Family Association. week, we -- we had a meeting. Last And

We were discussing,

you know, some of -- some of these -- some of these issues. And so, you know, I spend, you know, my -- my -- my -- basically, my research is how do we get, keep and maintain a -- a -- a high-quality military -- military and how do we treat people
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

877-479-2484

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-4 #:966
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Filed 11/19/12 Page 8 of 34 Page ID
[Page 15]

with the respect that they deserve. Q. My question was, do you recall if any

of the documents that you reviewed relate specifically to DOMA? A. I can't recall any that specifically But I think the key issue is --

relate to DOMA.

the whole question is how do we treat people fairly and -- and equitably. And as you know, over the years, we've changed. We were prejudiced against

African-Americans; we discriminated against women; we discriminate -- so, basically, they don't specifically relate to this thing, but it's the whole question of do we give people the benefits to which they're entitled. Q. And I understand your position,

but -- but when I'm asking questions, I'm asking specific questions. the question. So my question was, again, did the documents that you reviewed -- did any specifically relate to DOMA? A. Basically, if you take -- take a look So I'd ask that you answer

at the documents, they don't relate to it specifically, but they relate to what DOMA deals
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

877-479-2484

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-4 #:967
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
877-479-2484

Filed 11/19/12 Page 9 of 34 Page ID
[Page 19]

has been marked as Exhibit 1. A. Q. Yes. And this is your CV that was attached

to your expert report; is that correct? A. Q. That's correct. Do you have any additions or changes

that you would need to make to this? MR. ROMERO: Objection; vague. You can answer the question. THE WITNESS: Well, on my CV, I don't put all of the things I've done in my life. I, for example, do not mention,

as I mentioned before, that when I was on active duty, in addition to being a Naval flight officer, I dealt with issues of retention. I don't mention the fact that for the last decade, I have been the cochairman of the National Military Family Association. the USO. I've been on the board of

I've been honored by the

National Military Family Association. So, again, I don't know when you say "additions," I could go on and on and talk about, you know, things that I've done in
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-4 #:968
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
877-479-2484

Filed 11/19/12 Page 10 of 34 Page ID
[Page 20]

my life. BY MS. WALKER: Q. Is there anything that's not on your

CV -- are there any positions that you have held that are not on your CV that you think we should know about today? MR. ROMERO: Objection; vague; in addition, calls for speculation. BY MS. WALKER: Q. General Leech, when your counsel -MR. ROMERO: Dr. Korb. BY MS. WALKER: Q. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

Dr. Korb, when your counsel gives an objection, unless he directs you not to answer, you should answer the question. A. Q. I don't understand. Is there anything in your CV --

that's not in your CV related to your experience that you think would be relevant today? MR. ROMERO: Would you like to take a moment to review it? THE WITNESS: Well, let me take a moment to take a look at this. (Whereupon, the witness reviews the
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-4 #:969
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
877-479-2484

Filed 11/19/12 Page 11 of 34 Page ID
[Page 21]

material provided.) THE WITNESS: Well, as I mentioned, I've been a member of the National Military Family Association for at least 25 years. I've been the cochairman of the

board of advisors for at least 10. I've been honored by the National Military Family Association. I've been on

the board of the USO, which, of course, is concerned with military people. I don't mention in here the fact that I have written things when I was at American Enterprise Institute that had a lot to do with saving the volunteer military and, as I mentioned before, working with former Secretary of Defense Laird. It's not mentioned in here that I was on active duty as a Naval flight officer, but my collateral duty for my squadron was retention of the military people. And I could list, you know, a lot of the articles that I've written that are relevant to this, but -- so I guess that
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-4 #:970
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Filed 11/19/12 Page 12 of 34 Page ID
[Page 22]

would be things that would be relevant. BY MS. WALKER: Q. Okay. Thank you.

Can you explain to me what the National Military Family Association is? A. It used to be called the National

Military Wives Association and was a group founded by people -- then, they were mostly women -concerned with the -- how military families and taking care of them affects recruiting and retention of people in the services. And they fight for benefits -- or they make sure that people in Government and Congress and the Executive Branch are aware of things that impact military families. For

example, if a spouse has a teachers license in one state, whether he or she can have that transferred to another state. I worked with them when I was in Government about people whose spouses happen to be attorneys. And as you probably know, you have to

take the Bar in different states. People that are in a particular state don't get in-state tuition because they may not be residents of -- of that state.
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

877-479-2484

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-4 #:971
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Filed 11/19/12 Page 13 of 34 Page ID
[Page 31]

spoken with them? A. Q. They talked about it, yeah. Did you ever specifically address

retention issues with respect to gay military members when you were on active duty? A. Q. Not that I can recall. I understand that you were also

Assistant Secretary of Defense; is that correct? A. Q. Defense? A. Q. Yes, I was. And can you tell me a little bit Pardon me? You were Assistant Secretary of

about what you did as Assistant Secretary of Defense? A. Well, when President Reagan appointed

me to the job, my responsibilities included manpower, which was to make sure that we got and kept high-quality people and that the force was ready to carry out its -- its duties. I also was responsible for installations, which is the base. In fact, I

worked with Senator Goldwater to set up what we now know as BRAC, because we had too many -- too many bases.
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

877-479-2484

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-4 #:972
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Filed 11/19/12 Page 14 of 34 Page ID
[Page 32]

I also had responsibility for logistics, which was to ensure that the weapons that we produce could be maintained and we provided enough support, you know, for it. So, basically, my responsibilities -and now, if you're familiar with it, they've broken that office up. They have, like, five or

six people doing those -- those jobs. And my responsibilities were including that and then making sure those things were adequately funded, that we kept pay and benefits up to where they should be. For example, in the '70s, because we had very high inflation, military pay did not keep up with what was happening in society. And in our

first year, we raised military pay by 25 percent. Housing allowances were not based on where you lived, but they were all the same. And

so we, you know, actually working with the -- with the Congress, were able to get people more money, for example, if they lived in a high-cost area like Washington, as opposed to Montgomery, Alabama. And we also, you know, basically started to open up opportunities for woman.
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT

Of

877-479-2484

www.uslegalsupport.com

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-4 #:973
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Filed 11/19/12 Page 15 of 34 Page ID
[Page 33]

course, we realized that you could not recruit a high-quality force if you excluded 50 percent of the -- of the population. We tried to ensure that you had the end of discrimination. Particularly the Navy was

the last to really drop the discrimination against people because of their -- because of their color and basically to help make sure that we could maintain a high-quality volunteer military. One of the things that we did was persuaded President Reagan, who had campaigned against it, to maintain Selective Service registration so in case we went to war, we would be able to call on, you know, people so we wouldn't have to strain the -- the volunteer military. I worked with the military to reform the retirements to -- retirement system, because up until then, we were not on an accrual basis and we were accumulating tremendous unpaid -- unpaid deficits. We basically put a lot of money into

military family housing so people would have, you know, higher quality of -- of -- of life. I worked with the then National Military Wives Association to ensure that they
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

877-479-2484

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-4 #:974
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Filed 11/19/12 Page 16 of 34 Page ID
[Page 34]

could get in-state tuition for college if they were in a state, even though they were technically not a resident of that. We worked with the Congress to prevent the IRS from preventing military people who bought a house from getting the deduction because some of their pay was not -- not taxable. We basically put out on all military pay stubs -- and back then, you got checks -- you know, said this is what you will have to make on the outside if you were, you know -- if you were -- you were getting that. We tried to get people to be more explicit about how long they would -- you know, would -- would deploy. So, basically, in that time and thanks to the leadership of people like President Reagan, we were able to turn -- to turn things -- turn things around. And I think a lot of people back then, the Chiefs, people like Senator Nunn, who was a chairman of Senate Armed Services Committee, did not think the volunteer military would work. And with -- with the bases and working with Senator Goldwater, we were able to
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

877-479-2484

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-4 #:975
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Filed 11/19/12 Page 17 of 34 Page ID
[Page 35]

eliminate the excess -- which led to BRAC to eliminate the excess bases to allow us to put more money into the things that we -- that -- that we needed to -- that we needed to. And then, of course, with the logistics, we made sure that weapons that were developed, like the Apache Helicopter, that they were able to be, you know, maintained and -and -- and -- and operated. You know, so that was my responsibilities in that job. I testified over 100 times before the -- before the -- for the Congress -- before the Congress to deal with these issues. I

traveled all around the United States and around the world working with things. We reformed the Department of Defense's education system. We had to bring in

new leadership there because, again, we found that if you did not have a good solid education -- it's called the Department of Defense Dependent Education System [sic] -- that that will work. I negotiated with the head of the teachers union to ensure that the teachers got proper pay and benefits.
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

877-479-2484

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-4 #:976
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
877-479-2484

Filed 11/19/12 Page 18 of 34 Page ID
[Page 36]

And as you probably know, eventually, we allowed military -- teachers in -- in DoDDS, as we call it, to bring their partners with them to, you know, overseas areas. So those are, you know, things we did. And, again, I say a lot of credit goes to President Reagan, who was very, very supportive. to him. This was a issue of great importance

He used to always say I'm so happy when I I

see these people here knowing they volunteered. didn't have to, you know, force them -- you know,

force them to -- you know, to -- to -- to do this. Q. quite a bit. A. Q. Yes. Do you think that working with You mentioned working with Congress

Congress is a good way to deal with issues related to the military? MR. ROMERO: Objection; relevance; outside the scope of his expertise. MS. WALKER: Well, he just testified that he testified over 100 times -MR. ROMERO: Excuse me. scope of his expert report.
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

Outside the

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-4 #:977
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Filed 11/19/12 Page 19 of 34 Page ID
[Page 39]

Q.

And you've published a number of

articles regarding the repeal of Don't Ask, Don't Tell; is that correct? A. Q. That's correct. And in those articles, did you

advocate that Congress should repeal Don't Ask, Don't Tell? MR. ROMERO: Same objection as before. THE WITNESS: I advocated that the law -- the law should be repealed. And my

understanding is only Congress could do it. BY MS. WALKER: Q. Thank you. I understand that you have -- you currently work for the Center for American Progress; is that correct? A. Q. That's correct. Can you tell me a little bit about

your role with the Center for American Progress? A. Well, I'm a senior fellow with

national security, and my job, like it has been when I was at American Enterprise Institute or Brookings or the Navy War College or Coast Guard
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

877-479-2484

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-4 #:978
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Filed 11/19/12 Page 20 of 34 Page ID
[Page 40]

Academy, is to look at issues that come before the country that impact national scrutiny and apply my research skills to -- to them. Q. The Center for American Progress

recently published a blog entry about Title 38 and DOMA, Section 3. Were you involved in writing that entry? A. Q. A. I was not. Why not? Because the blog is a separate thing

from our national security division. Q. I see. And have you written any articles about the spousal definitions in Title 38 or about DOMA? A. Q. No. Have you ever made any speeches or

offered any testimony in connection -- sorry. Have you made any speeches in connection with Title 38 or DOMA, Section 3? A. Q. No. Have you offered any

Congressional testimony in connection with the spousal definitions in Title 38 or in connection
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

877-479-2484

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-4 #:979
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
877-479-2484

Filed 11/19/12 Page 21 of 34 Page ID
[Page 49]

it means is they all feel that they're part of a team; and the -- that they'll all take care of each other; and that they're all going to be treated the same regardless of whatever characteristic, whether it's race, religion, gender; and that they will all get the same -- the same benefits if something, heaven forbid, should happen to them. Q. And I understand that's the

definition of cohesion -- of unit cohesion. Can you explain how that's measured? A. Well -- I think it's measured when

you measure readiness. Q. A. And what do you mean by that? Well, the military has readiness -Unfortunately, the And

they have a readiness system.

metrics are classified, but they measure.

there is a report that this unit is anywhere from C1 to C4 and -- and they do it. And part of the readiness is people's retention, people's performance. And there is --

these figures are highly -- you know, highly classified, but every now and then, people will talk about them in the press, you know, the units. And I do know for a fact that when I
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-4 #:980
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Filed 11/19/12 Page 22 of 34 Page ID
[Page 50]

came into Government, military readiness, unit cohesion were in terrible shape because military people realized that their pay was not going up to the extent that they had been promised because of the high inflation and we weren't doing it. And once we raised it -- in the first year of the Reagan Administration, we had two pay increases, one an 11 and 14.3, because that was the standard. Once that happened, it was amazing

how readiness began to improve, because people felt that they were being treated fairly. Q. So you would say that pay has a

significant impact on -A. I would say pay and benefits.

Because, remember, military pay, basic pay, is only 40 percent of -- of your whole total compensation. Q. surveys? A. Q. I am. And would you say that that's a way Are you familiar with command climate

to measure unit cohesion? A. Q. That's one way, yes. Okay. And how is that different from

what you just described with respect to readiness?
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

877-479-2484

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-4 #:981
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Filed 11/19/12 Page 23 of 34 Page ID
[Page 54]

they're assigned a mission, they carry it out as well as could be expected. Q. And the way that you measure

effectiveness is through this readiness system, this classified readiness system; is that correct? A. Q. That's correct. Are you aware of any empirical

studies or statistical research tying the effectives of DOMA, Section 3 to decreased effectiveness? A. Q. I am not aware of any. Are you aware of any empirical

studies or statistical research tying the effects of the spousal definitions in Title 38 to decreased effectiveness? A. Well, as I mentioned before, the

studies talk about the perception of people being treated equally regardless. And those are the --

you know, that's what I base my opinion on. Q. So you based your opinion on studies

that relate to treating people -A. I base my opinion, as I mentioned

before, my own experience, having dealt with this, as well as the -- the -- the studies that have looked -- looked at this.
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

877-479-2484

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-4 #:982
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
877-479-2484

Filed 11/19/12 Page 24 of 34 Page ID
[Page 55]

And everything that I have seen and I've experienced, particularly in my five years in the Reagan Administration, leads me to the opinion that once there is a feeling that people are not being treated equitably because of something that has nothing to do with their military profile, that this causes problems. Q. Are the studies that you're referring

to -- are those the five documents that are cited -A. Those plus -- as I keep mentioning

this to you, I've lived this, okay, all my life. Okay? So it's not just these studies, which, of I've

course, I do, but I've lived this. experienced it day to day.

When I was at Brookings and at the Council on Foreign Relations, we had military fellows there that I worked -- that I worked with. I get called to the Pentagon all of the time. I

was asked several times to go over and meet with people about Don't Ask, Don't Tell and the impact that that was having. So that's what I'm basing my opinion on. Q. Okay. My question, though, was the
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-4 #:983
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Filed 11/19/12 Page 25 of 34 Page ID
[Page 56]

studies that you just referred to, are those the documents that are cited in your expert report? A. Those are some -- those documents --

yes, those are things. Q. What other studies did you rely on

for your expert report? A. You -- I did not rely on other --

other studies; I relied on my experience. Q. Okay. Thank you.

And you're not aware of any studies that specifically tie the spousal definitions in Title 38 to decreased effectiveness; is that correct? A. I am not aware because you couldn't

have any studies. Here's the point: this. You keep asking

You can't study something until it has And we didn't drop the ban on gays and

happened.

lesbians until very recently. Q. Okay. You're not aware of any

studies; is that correct? A. Q. I am not aware of any. So how do you measure the decreased

effectiveness, for example, that you're discussing in Paragraph 13?
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

877-479-2484

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-4 #:984
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Filed 11/19/12 Page 26 of 34 Page ID
[Page 57]

A.

What I am saying is that based upon

my experience and having lived this and having been part of the Inter-University on Armed Forces and Society, okay, having talked to one of the authors of this, Bernie Rostker, who ran Selective Service and was Undersecretary for Personnel and looking at this, we know that when you deny benefits for no good reason, it has a negative impact. Q. Gays and lesbians enlisted under

Don't Ask, Don't Tell; isn't that correct? A. Q. Some did, yes. And presumably, if they're willing to

enlist under Don't Ask, Don't Tell, they might be willing to enlist regardless of whether DOMA, Section 3 or Title 38 is ineffective? A. What we know -- and this was

studied -- it's not in here -- that 4,000 people each year in the military who were gay left because they did not want to continue living a lie or being treated unfairly. That we do know.

And we also know that because of Don't Ask, Don't Tell, we could not recruit people at some of our most prestigious schools in the country because they wouldn't allow ROTC there.
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

877-479-2484

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-4 #:985
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Filed 11/19/12 Page 27 of 34 Page ID
[Page 58]

And we also know that in order to meet our requirements, from 2003 to 2007, we gave 80,000 moral waivers, taking in people up to and including felony convictions, which is part of the reason we've had so many difficulties in places like Afghanistan and Iraq where people behave inappropriately. That's what we do know.

And we do know that if you exclude a certain portion of the population, whether it's gays, lesbians, women, African-Americans, you lower the quality of the people that you get. Q. DOMA, Section 3 and the spousal

definition in Title 38 don't exclude anyone from the military, do they? A. don't know. They couldn't exclude -- well, we Because if I am thinking of joining

and I'm aware of this, I may not -- you may not know this -- you might have someone who finds out about it when they're in there. They would not

re-enlist even though you would want them to be. And so what you have to do is take in a lesser-qualified person. All of the money that

you've spent training that man or woman, if they realize this -- and we have -- in the past, we've seen that -- then we all lose. The military
www.uslegalsupport.com

877-479-2484

U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-4 #:986
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
877-479-2484

Filed 11/19/12 Page 28 of 34 Page ID
[Page 76]

specifically relates to Veterans' and military benefits, or whether it's relating to family well-being as a whole. MR. ROMERO: Objection; the article speaks for itself. BY MS. WALKER: Q. Does that -- does that, to you, say

anything specifically about Veterans' or military benefits? A. Q. A. Q. That's part of the whole thing. Part of it? Part of it, yes. You mentioned a minute ago family

readiness groups -A. Q. Um-hum. -- and I know that you talk about it

specifically in Paragraph 24 -A. Q. Um-hum. -- of your report. And you also mention that -- that your understanding is that same-sex spouses are excluded from family readiness groups. Is that your understanding? A. Q. That's my understanding. And what's that understanding based
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-4 #:987
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
877-479-2484

Filed 11/19/12 Page 29 of 34 Page ID
[Page 77]

on? A. Based upon the people I've spoken to,

my experience with the National Military Family Association, what I've heard from reports from the field. Q. You testified earlier that in

connection with the National Military Family Association, that the definition of family was broad; isn't that correct? A. First of all, this is -- these are --

their definition, yes, is broad, but these are not run by the National Military Family Association. Q. Okay. Are you aware of any

regulation or law that specifically prevents same-sex spouses from participating in family readiness groups? A. invited. Q. Okay. - - (Whereupon, U.S. Army FRG Leader's Handbook was marked, for identification purposes, as Korb Deposition Exhibit Number 3.) - - U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

My understanding is that they're not

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-4 #:988
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Filed 11/19/12 Page 30 of 34 Page ID
[Page 94]

MS. WALKER: I have no further questions. THE WITNESS: That's it? MR. ROMERO: Just a few questions from us. THE WITNESS: Oh, okay. MR. ROMERO: First, just on the record, we'd like to reserve Dr. Korb's rights to review the deposition transcript and for any corrections. MS. WALKER: Sure. the Federal Rules? MR. ROMERO: Of course. MS. WALKER: That's fine. - - EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR PLAINTIFFS - - BY MR. ROMERO: Q. Dr. Korb, we went extensively through Consistent with

your background, but I'd like to ask you just about a couple of points in your experience. Can you describe your work at the USO? A. Well, basically, the USO, as you

know, takes care of military people and their
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

877-479-2484

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-4 #:989
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Filed 11/19/12 Page 31 of 34 Page ID
[Page 95]

families when they were deployed. board of directors there.

I was on the

And I don't know if you're familiar with this, we almost went bankrupt in the 1980s. So my job was to work with them while I was on the board to make us financially viable again. Q. And do you consider your work at the

USO relevant to your -A. Well, I think it brought me into

contact with military people and their families and people, you know, coming and going from deployments and things that they -- they thought about. Q. with the USO? A. I was on the board -- years go by too And how long have you been associated

quick -- for about five years. Q. And you mentioned your work at the

Council of Foreign Affairs [sic]. Can you describe that? A. Relations. I was the director of studies, basically, that -- all of the research that's
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

Well, the Council on Foreign

877-479-2484

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-4 #:990
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Filed 11/19/12 Page 32 of 34 Page ID
[Page 96]

done.

And, you know, basically, I did that for

four years, running the whole studies department, which has probably 40 or 50 people if you count adjuncts, to make sure their research was fact-based, that it dealt with challenges that, you know, the country -- that the country faced. In addition to running it, I did my own research. Like, I wrote a book when I was

there called, you know, National Security Strategy in an Age of Terrorists, Tyrants, and Weapons of Mass Destruction after the attacks of 9/11. Q. And were you elected to the Council

on Foreign Relations? A. Q. A. I was elected as a member in 1979. What are the criteria for election? Well, the criteria basically is that

you have to be someone who has made a difference and had an impact on the foreign policy of this country based upon your research or your experience. Q. And -- and what experiences led to

your election? A. Well, basically, I think I was

elected because of the writings and research I had done in the '70s: writing a book about the Joint
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

877-479-2484

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-4 #:991
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
877-479-2484

Filed 11/19/12 Page 33 of 34 Page ID
[Page 97]

Chiefs of Staff, writing a book called The Fall and Rise of -- of the Pentagon, a lot of op-eds that I wrote in The Washington Post and in the -in the New York Times and other publications around the country. I assume that's what brought -- the way it works, somebody has to nominate you, and then you have to get these, you know, seconds that -- that you have. And one of the people who

seconded my nomination was Jim Woolsey, who was the head -- went on to become the head of the -of the CIA. Q. And would you say that election to

the Council on Foreign Affairs is a selective process? A. It's a very selective -MS. WALKER: Objection; vague. is selective? THE WITNESS: Basically, there's a limited number of people that they can have. And, for example, when I was What

elected, I went to my welcome dinner, if you will. One of the people there was the

Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, you know, General David Jones.
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-4 #:992
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
877-479-2484

Filed 11/19/12 Page 34 of 34 Page ID
[Page 101]

have for -- you know, for promotion and get them assigned to -- to key jobs. And it was an evolution that began to work. And by 1991, we had dropped all combat

exclusions except for submarines and for ground combat units. Submarines has now been dropped,

and for all practical purposes, women can be attached, but not assigned to a ground combat unit. Q. Secretary Korb, are you aware of any

studies or statistical analysis that does not support your conclusions in your expert report? A. it. Q. And when you were preparing your I am not aware of any that contradict

expert report, were you concerned with discrimination emanating from the Federal Government and the VA? A. Yes, I was, because I saw this as

another form of discrimination very similar to the ones we had dealt with over the years. MR. ROMERO: Thank you. questions. No further

U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT

www.uslegalsupport.com

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-5

Filed 11/19/12 Page 1 of 2 Page ID #:993

EXHIBIT E

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-5

Filed 11/19/12 Page 2 of 2 Page ID #:994

MAJOR GENERAL DENNIS LAICH UNITED STATES ARMY, RETIRED
4276 Scenic View Drive Powell, OH 43065 CIVILIAN EMPLOYMENT
2009-Present Columbus, OH Director – Patriots Program, Ohio Dominican University The Patriots Program is an initiative to inform and recruit military veterans to use their VA educational benefits. 2002-2008 Independent Consultant on Strategic Planning/Manufacturing 2000-2002 Chief Operating Officer – Q3 Industries Columbus, OH

MILITARY ASSIGNMENTS
2006 Retired 2002-2006 Commanding General, 94th Regional Readiness Command 1998-2002 Commanding General, 300th Military Police Brigade Ft. Devens, MA

Inkster, MI

EDUCATION
2004 Harvard University, Cambridge, MA Master of Arts Program for Senior Executives in National and International Security John F. Kennedy School of Government 1997 1986 Master of Arts in Labor Relations 1976 Master of Business Administration 1971 Bachelor of Arts in Political Science U.S. Army War College, Carlisle Barracks, Carlisle, PA St. Francis University, Loretto, PA

West Virginia University, Morgantown, WV

Lafayette College, Easton, PA

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-6 #:995

Filed 11/19/12 Page 1 of 36 Page ID

EXHIBIT F

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-6 #:996

Filed 11/19/12 Page 2 of 36 Page ID

IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT CENTRAL DISTRICT OF CALIFORNIA TRACEY COOPER-HARRIS, et al., Plaintiffs, vs. UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, et al., Defendants. ) ) ) ) ) ) Case No.2:12cv0087 ) ) ) ) )

- - - - THE DEPOSITION OF MAJOR GENERAL (RET.) DENNIS LAICH FRIDAY, OCTOBER 12, 2012 - - - - The deposition of MAJOR GENERAL (RET.) DENNIS LAICH, called by the Defendants for examination pursuant to the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, taken before me, the undersigned, Michelle M. Lewis, a Registered Professional Reporter and Notary Public within and for the State of Ohio, taken at the offices of Baker & Hostetler, 3200 PNC Center, 1900 East 9th Street, Cleveland, Ohio, commencing at 9:05 a.m., the day and date above set forth.

877-479-2484

U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT

www.uslegalsupport.com

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-6 #:997
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
877-479-2484

Filed 11/19/12 Page 3 of 36 Page ID
[Page 2]

APPEARANCES: On behalf of the Plaintiff: Randall R. Lee, Esq. WilmerHale 350 South Grand Avenue Suite 2100 Los Angeles, California 90071 213.443.5301 randall.lee@wilmerhale.com and Adam P. Romero, Esq. Rubina Ali, Esq. (Via Phone) WilmerHale 7 World Trade Center 250 Greenwich Street New York, New York 10007 212.230.8800 adam.romero@wilmerhale.com rubina.ali@wilmerhale.com and Caren E. Short, Esq. Southern Poverty Law Center 400 Washington Avenue Montgomery, Alabama 36104 334.956.8450 caren.short@splcenter.org On behalf of the Defendants: Jean Lin, Esq. United States Department of Justice 20 Massachusetts Avenue, Northwest Washington, D.C. 20530 202.514.3716 jean.lin@doj.gov On behalf of Intervenor - Defendant: Mary Beth Walker, Esq. U.S. House of Representatives Office of the General Counsel 219 Cannon Building Washington, D.C. 20515 202.225.9700 marybeth.walker@mail.house.gov
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-6 #:998
1 2

Filed 11/19/12 Page 4 of 36 Page ID
[Page 3]

and

Nicholas J. Nelson, Esq.
3

Bancroft, PLLC 1919 M Street, NW

4

Suite 470 Washington, D.C. 20036

5

202.234.0090 nnelson@bancroftpllc.com

6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
877-479-2484 U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-6 #:999
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
877-479-2484

Filed 11/19/12 Page 5 of 36 Page ID
[Page 8]

Q

Now, you mentioned that you testified in the Witt case; is that correct?

A Q

Yes. And do you know if you were an expert or a fact witness in that case?

A Q A

I was an expert witness, I believe. Okay. And why do you believe that?

My recollection is that the ACLU engaged me as an expert witness, and I had never heard from any of the participants in the case the term a fact witness during my participation in the case.

Q

Has your expert testimony ever been excluded from a case?

A Q

No, at least not to my knowledge. Can you tell me a little bit about, just generally, about the testimony that you offered in the Witt case?

A

Yes.

The testimony that I offered in the

Witt case was with regard to the issues of Major Witt's impact on morale, cohesion, and discipline in her unit of assignment in the United States Air Force Reserve, and whether her status as a lesbian had any adverse impact on morale, cohesion, and discipline in
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-6 #:1000
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Filed 11/19/12 Page 6 of 36 Page ID
[Page 9]

that unit. Q And were there any particular policies or laws that you were speaking to when you testified in Witt? A Q Principally the Don't Ask, Don't Tell Law. And do you recall whether your testimony discussed either Title 38 or DOMA in that case? A I don't recall any specific reference to DOMA or Title 38 in that case. Q And you don't recall testifying about Title 38 or DOMA, do you? A Q A Q In that case? That's right, sir. No. Have you ever testified about Title 38 or DOMA? A Q No. And just for the record, you're not a lawyer; is that correct? A Q A Q A That's correct. A lot of people say that's a good thing. I don't make any judgments. How did you prepare for this deposition? Frankly, I've been preparing for this
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

877-479-2484

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-6 #:1001
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
877-479-2484

Filed 11/19/12 Page 7 of 36 Page ID
[Page 18]

A

My study or interview or preparation from the report -- for the report encompasses 35 years of experience and interface with soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines, and their families, and also a wealth of experience in dealing with policy creation and execution, and it also encompasses during those 35 years a study of these issues at a host of military institutions to include the Command and General Staff College and the Army War College, where especially at the Army War College we study manning the force and fighting and winning the nation's wars at a strategic level. During those 35 years I had innumerable interfaces with soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines, and their families on issues that involved their benefits, well-being, and decisions to become part of the military, to remain part of the military, and to continue to be ready to fight and win the nation's wars. That 35

years of experience is a wealth of experience and data point by point developed over a long period.
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-6 #:1002
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
877-479-2484

Filed 11/19/12 Page 8 of 36 Page ID
[Page 19]

Q

In the 35 years of experience that you just testified about, did you ever discuss with service members Title 38? clarify that question. Did you ever discuss with service members the definitions provided in Title 38 for spouse? I'm sorry, let me

A Q A

Yes. Can you recall specific examples? Yes. I had several discussions with a number

of service members, especially during my tenure as the chair of the Military Advisory Committee to the Servicemembers Legal Defense Committee. Q And, General, can you just clarify, what's the timeframe that we're talking about right now? A 2006 to 2000 -- well, 2007 to 2011. And

prior to that -- I'm sorry, I misstated. It's the Servicemembers Legal Defense Network, SLDN. Prior to that, there were no specific -- there was no specific dialogue that I can recall related directly to Title 38.
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-6 #:1003
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Filed 11/19/12 Page 9 of 36 Page ID
[Page 20]

Q

And you just testified that the timeframe that we are talking about was 2006 to 2011; is that correct?

A Q

Yes. So that would have been after you retired; is that correct?

A Q

Yes. While you were in the military, did you ever have conversations with service members about the definitions of spouse in Title 38 as they relate to same sex marriages?

A Q

No. And in the timeframe from 2006 to 2011 you mentioned discussing the definitions of spouse with service members. Did those

discussions relate particularly to same sex spouse marriages? A Well, it -- if you're talking about Title 38, yes, predominantly to same sex marriages. Q And how many conversations would you say that you had? A Q Oh, I would think dozens. Dozens, but you wouldn't say -- you would say less than a hundred? A Yes, less than a hundred.
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

877-479-2484

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-6 Filed 11/19/12 Page 10 of 36 Page ID #:1004 [Page 21]
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
877-479-2484

Q A Q A

Less than 50? Call it 50. 50? 50 would be four dozen. Call it 50. 50

would be a good guess or estimate. Q And based on your experience, typically is a sample size of 50 something that would stand up to peer review? A 50 is normally a statistically significant sample size. The sample size would dictate

the margin of error. Q And what would the margin of error be for a sample size of 50? A I don't have tables in front of me, but it would probably be somewhere in the neighborhood of 5 to 9 percent. Q But as you said, you don't have tables in front of you; is that correct? A No, I don't have anything in front of me except for this document. Q Thank you, sir. Did you ever record any of those estimated 50 conversations? A Record? I don't know -- can you clarify what

you mean by record?
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-6 Filed 11/19/12 Page 11 of 36 Page ID #:1005 [Page 22]
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
877-479-2484

Q

Sure.

Do you have notes from any of those

conversations? A Q A Q No. No notes from any of those conversations? Not that I can recall. Thank you. And other than those 50 conversations that we've just discussed, have you -- strike that. I'd like to ask the same questions with respect to DOMA. We just talked about

the Title 38 provisions, and now I'd like to move on to DOMA. Have you had -- while you

were in your military service, did you ever discuss DOMA with service members? A Q A No. Why not? First of all, it really wasn't an issue because Don't Ask, Don't Tell was still in force, and I think that that would cause discussion about DOMA to be less likely inside the active service. Q I understand. And before you testified that you had 35 years of experience that you believed was
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-6 Filed 11/19/12 Page 12 of 36 Page ID #:1006 [Page 23]
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

relevant for your report and for your deposition today, but in the 35 -- and correct me if I'm wrong, but in the 35 years that you were in the military, you never had any discussions with service members regarding DOMA or the Title 38 provisions as they relate to same sex marriages; is that correct? A Q While I was serving actively, that's correct. Yes, sir. And since 2000 -- since 2006 since you were serving, you've had maybe 50 discussions about the Title 38 provision? A Yes. And as recently as within the past A specific example is in my

several months.

role now as the director of the Patriots Program at Ohio Dominican University, I had occasion to engage a service member who was party to a same sex marriage who wanted to transfer his post 9/11 GI Bill benefits to his legal spouse and was unable to as a result of Title 38 and the DOMA definitions. Q A Q And this was in Ohio; is that correct? Yes. And do you know if Ohio recognizes same sex
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

877-479-2484

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-6 Filed 11/19/12 Page 13 of 36 Page ID #:1007 [Page 24]
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
877-479-2484

marriage? A Q A Q I don't. You don't know if it does, is that it? I don't. And you mentioned that the -- I'm sorry, was it a veteran that came to you? A Q Yes. You mentioned that the veteran wanted to transfer benefits to his legal spouse? A Q Yes. How did you make a determine -- a determination that it was his legal spouse? A Q A Q He told me that it was his legal spouse. But it may not have been? I didn't ask for a marriage license. And since 2006 have you had any conversations with service members or veterans specifically regarding DOMA? A Q Yes. Are those the same conversations where you discussed Title 38? A They would have been related conversations, yes. I don't know that they were the same,

but they were -- but they were related conversations.
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-6 Filed 11/19/12 Page 14 of 36 Page ID #:1008 [Page 25]
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
877-479-2484

Q

Do you have any notes from any of those conversations?

A Q

No. I'm going to back up here for a minute. apologize. I

I'm sort of going a bit out of

order, but I just wanted to talk generally about your military career. Can you just

give me a brief overview of the different roles you played while you were in the military? A Yes. I was commissioned through Army ROTC in Served on active

1971 at Lafayette College. duty in 1971 and 1972. the Army Reserve.

In '72 transferred to

Spent most of my career in

the Army Reserve in primarily military police and transportation assignments. I was also

the Inspector General of the 99th ARCOM at that time in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. I

held a host of command and staff assignments. And my military awards include the Defense Distinguished Service Award, the Legion of Merit, the Joint Meritorious Service Award, and a Meritorious Service Award. The last 14 consecutive years of my active service I was in command positions at
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-6 Filed 11/19/12 Page 15 of 36 Page ID #:1009 [Page 26]
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
877-479-2484

the Colonel, Brigadier General, and Major General level, culminating in my assignment as the commanding general of the 94th Regional Readiness Command at Fort Devens, Massachusetts, where I had approximately 5,000 soldiers in my command encompassing all of the Army Reserve soldiers in the six New England states. So I had responsibility for

those soldiers and their families in terms of logistics, training, pay, administration, facilities management, personnel actions, discipline, and legal affairs. Q Were there any roles where you served primarily or significantly in the recruitment process? A The fact of the matter is today that everyone who is in the Army Reserve and the National Guard in particular in a leadership role is involved in recruiting. I did not have a

specific recruiting assignment, although I should point out that I had recruiters working for me in my role as commander. had oversight responsibility for the operation of recruiting efforts in my area of operation and supporting those operations and
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

So I

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-6 Filed 11/19/12 Page 16 of 36 Page ID #:1010 [Page 31]
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

of these efforts; is that correct? A Q A Q A Q No. That's correct, yes? That's correct, yes. Just wanted to be clear about that. Okay. In talking with these young people about their decision to join the military, is it fair to say that there are many factors that go into that decision process? A Q Yes. Can you explain a little bit about your current position with the Patriot Program? A Yeah, the Patriots Program is a program at Ohio Dominican University to inform and encourage veterans to take advantage of their GI Bill benefits, and then nurture those veterans through the educational process at Ohio Dominican, and finally as a fourth objective to serve as liaison between the academic community and the military in the national security establishment. Q And where is your role in the program, sort of in the -A I'm the director.
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

877-479-2484

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-6 Filed 11/19/12 Page 17 of 36 Page ID #:1011 [Page 41]
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

recruiting numbers, for example? MR. LEE: Vague as to time. Q General Laich, just one point, when your counsel makes an objection, unless he directs you not to answer the question, you're still required to answer the question. A Okay. Specifically in preparing the report Objection.

there is no report that I drew on to bear on my report. Q I'd like to direct your attention for one minute -A Well, let me just clarify that a little bit. In clarifying my answer, I would point out that much of what I talk about in my report reflects policies and programs put together by the Department of Defense and funded by Congress to enhance recruiting, retention, and readiness that cut across all of the services. I have been involved in the

creation and execution of a number of those policies, and those policies are intended to materially enhance our manning the force and our fighting and winning the nation's wars. Q General Laich, I'm going to stop you for a
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

877-479-2484

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-6 Filed 11/19/12 Page 18 of 36 Page ID #:1012 [Page 42]
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
877-479-2484

minute. MR. LEE: Wait. I would

ask that the witness be allowed to finish his answer. MS. WALKER: But the The

witness isn't answering the question. question was -MR. LEE:

That doesn't

mean you interrupt him in the middle of his answer. MS. WALKER: MR. LEE: It does. You can

follow-up afterward or redirect him or ask for a more specific answer, but I would ask that you don't interrupt in the middle of his answer. Q A Q A You may finish. No, I'm not finished. I said you may finish. Oh. So given the fact that these programs

and policies are in place and funded in order to achieve these objectives of manning the force and fighting and winning the nation's wars, the reciprocal of this by denying these benefits to a cohort of the force adversely
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-6 Filed 11/19/12 Page 19 of 36 Page ID #:1013 [Page 43]
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
877-479-2484

impacts readiness, retention, and recruiting of the force as a whole. There are

significant body of knowledge out there that says that the programs that are in place that are available to the spouses of same sex couples are viable in enhancing our efforts to man the force and to fight and win the nation's wars are working. There could be a

reasonable argument in my professional judgment that the exclusion of same sex spouses adversely impacts these same initiatives by their -- by virtue of their exclusion. Q General, you just testified to there could be a reasonable argument made for the position that you espouse. When I hear that language,

it suggests that a reasonable argument could be made on the other side. disagree? A I would not disagree, but in my professional judgment, my strong view based upon my 35 years of service and the work that I've done since leaving active service is that the discrimination that is inherent in the current application of Title 38 and DOMA
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

Would you

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-6 Filed 11/19/12 Page 20 of 36 Page ID #:1014 [Page 44]
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
877-479-2484

adversely affects the U.S. military's ability to man the force at the maximum quality levels that we need, and to fight and win the nation's wars. Q Can you point to any reports that rely on statistical information that support that opinion? A Q No. General, I'd like to turn your attention to Paragraph 44 of your report for a minute. Paragraph 44 states a number, 66,000 gay lesbian service members. number come from? A That number can be found in the research and projections made by the Servicemembers Legal Defense Network. Q And did you review that research in preparing your report? A Q A Q Did I review the research? Yes, sir. No. How did you come up with the 66,000? a very specific number. A Yeah. That was a number that was offered and That's Where did that

put together and published by the
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-6 Filed 11/19/12 Page 21 of 36 Page ID #:1015 [Page 53]
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Paragraph 10 of your report references service members in legal same sex marriages. Do you have any data related to the number of service members in legal same sex marriages? A Q No. How would you define a legal same sex marriage? A A same sex marriage that occurs in a -- one of the states that recognizes marriage as a institution. I believe there are 10 states I'm not sure of that.

now that do so. Q

But you know it's not all of them; is that correct?

A Q

Yes, that's correct. So if someone lived in a state, let's take Virginia for example, that didn't recognize same sex marriage, but they were married in Canada, would you consider that a legal same sex marriage for the purposes of your report?

A Q

For the purposes of my report, no. For the purposes of any opinions that you express in the report?

A

No.

My report was framed by U.S. law and

U.S. citizens. Q So would you admit that if DOMA and Title 38
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

877-479-2484

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-6 Filed 11/19/12 Page 22 of 36 Page ID #:1016 [Page 68]
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

A

My own experience in 35 years of looking at the effects of discrimination in organizations that espouse to be values based and paragons of equality who, as a result of policies like Title 38 and DOMA, in fact are executers of discrimination and other policies that adversely effect, again, this morale, cohesion, discipline, and credibility that are endemic to a military organization. Many people who have never served in a military organization don't understand the sacrifices that are made, not only by the service members but also by the families. And the sacrifices on the part of both parties have been acknowledged not only by the nation but also by the Department of Defense, and that's why a number of programs have been put together that are denied to spouses of same sex service members, same sex marriage spouses of service members.

Q

And you don't have any studies or reports that support your opinion in Paragraph 16, do you, as they specifically relate to Title 38 and DOMA?

A

I'm not aware of any studies.
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

877-479-2484

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-6 Filed 11/19/12 Page 23 of 36 Page ID #:1017 [Page 74]
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
877-479-2484

Q

And are you aware of any studies that weigh the many different factors that go into the decision to enlist or to become commissioned in the military and parse out the effect of each of those factors?

A

I believe there are some high-level studies that have been done by the various services recruiting commands. The caveat that is

always applied to them is that they change over time. There are times when one factor

becomes more important than another, and that's the reason that we have the complex formulas for recruiting and retention bonuses in the military. And it was reflected in the

dialogue that took places in Congress as we move forward with the post 9/11 GI Bill just as an example. So there isn't a hard and

fast rule that stays the same. The other thing is that there are factors outside the military's control that impact these -- the effect of these benefits. Two of them that are readily available to us is the strength of the economy and unemployment. And the second one is the

impact of rising fatality rates in Iraq and
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-6 Filed 11/19/12 Page 24 of 36 Page ID #:1018 [Page 75]
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
877-479-2484

Afghanistan at the height of both of those wars. So it's a complex formula. There's

not a straightforward answer. Q Do you have any information about the comparative effect of the rising -- the fatality rate on recruitment versus the effect of Title 38 and DOMA, Section 3? A I have seen data on the effect of fatality rates in Iraq and Afghan -- and it's effect on recruiting. I have not seen any studies

done that reflect the impact of Title 38. Q And do you recall in your review of those studies regarding the impact of the fatality rate, was there a percentage assigned or how was that measured? A It reflected the propensity to enlist at certain benefit rates. And what we did in

2005 to 2007 was dramatically increased the recruiting and retention bonus budgets that were paid primarily in the Army and the Marine Corps. As a matter of fact, I believe

in 2005 70 percent of those enlistees coming into the Army received enlistment bonuses that averaged more than $18,000. So this is

the way the military has dealt with this.
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-6 Filed 11/19/12 Page 25 of 36 Page ID #:1019 [Page 76]
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
877-479-2484

And most people who have not served in the military or are not familiar with these kinds of issues are not sensitive to and don't realize the impact that they have on young people's decision making process. $18,000 to

a young unemployed person here in center city Cleveland means altogether a different thing than someone in Brookline in Boston, Massachusetts. Unfortunately, most of

America doesn't give much thought to that. Q You, in Paragraph 19, you say that Title 38 and DOMA are detrimental to military recruitment, but you don't have any way quantifiably to measure DOMA's or Title 38's affect on military recruitment, do you? A Other than my experience in 35 years in the military and my subsequent involvement after my retirement that leads me to a strong professional opinion that it adversely affects military recruitment. Q A Q And that's your opinion; is that correct? That's my strong professional opinion. Could reasonable people disagree about that opinion? MR. LEE:
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT

Well,
www.uslegalsupport.com

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-6 Filed 11/19/12 Page 26 of 36 Page ID #:1020 [Page 88]
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
877-479-2484

a military have an obligation, just as we espouse, to take care -- to take care of soldiers and their families. Q But my question was that Title 38 and DOMA, I guess particularly Title 38 which doesn't even apply in the active duty context, they don't preclude that a service member's family might be well taken care of? A DOMA does or Title 38 does in the context that active component service member's same sex spouses cannot participate in family support groups. Q A Well, Title 38 doesn't preclude that. Title 38 operates under AR 600 -- 608 -well, Title 38 doesn't. AR 608-1 does

operate under DOMA, though. Q A same sex spouse of a service member may have his or her own job; isn't that correct? A Q Oh, that's true, and often does. So they very well could be well taken care of; isn't that correct? A We're not only talking about the financial situation, we're talking about emotional care, we're talking about psychological care, we're talking about support networks that are
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-6 Filed 11/19/12 Page 27 of 36 Page ID #:1021 [Page 89]
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

not available to most citizens, because most people don't realize that most Army spouses do not live where they grew up. The Army or

the Navy or the Air Force or the Marines have moved them around all over the country. the concept of American gothic where the family, the extended family is available, doesn't exist necessarily in the military other than the structures that are put together. So there are resources available, So

but many of the resources that are available and structured under military policy are not available, specifically the family support groups, to same sex spouses of deployed service members. Q Okay. In Paragraph 30 you cite the U.S. Army

FRG Leader Handbook, you cite the 2010 edition. The 2002 edition was attached to Can you tell me which one you

your report.

relied on in preparing your report? A Q I believe 2010. Okay. And do you have any idea why the

2002 version was attached to your report? A Q No, I don't. And are you aware of any differences between
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

877-479-2484

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-6 Filed 11/19/12 Page 28 of 36 Page ID #:1022 [Page 105]
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
877-479-2484

- - - - EXAMINATION OF MAJOR GENERAL (RET.) DENNIS LAICH BY MR. LEE: Q General Laich, it's now my opportunity to ask you a few questions. Could you describe your Could

experience in the Army War College?

you describe what is the Army War College and what the curricula consisted of generally? A The Army War College is located at Carlisle Barracks, Pennsylvania, and is the senior institution of education as opposed to training in the Army hierarchy. One must

apply for admission to the Army War College. Only lieutenant colonels and full colonels are eligible for admission to the war college. There are two curricula: One is

the full-time six or seven-month resident course; the other one is a two-year course encompassing both correspondence assignments, and two resident periods. Every general

officer -- in order to be considered for promotion to brigadier general in the Army, one must be a graduate of the War College. The curricula is at the strategic level. Army really operates at three different
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

The

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-6 Filed 11/19/12 Page 29 of 36 Page ID #:1023 [Page 106]
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
877-479-2484

levels.

It operates at the tactical level,

the operational level, and the strategic level. And the curricula that addresses the

strategic level talks about national security policy, force development, allocation of resources, diplomatic relations, relations with the three branches of -- among the three branches of government, and relationships with other allied and non-allied forces. The

curricula covers a host of issues including, in the case of the United States, manning the force and all of the implications for manning the force in an all volunteer mode in a democracy, and what the issues are in affecting our ability to man the force, be they internal to the military or external to the military. And all of those are covered

as at the senior policy making and execution level, manning the force and allocating resources to man the force are critical. Q And you completed the course of study at the Army War College? A Q Yes. And so is it fair to say that the program of study and the course work and education that
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-6 Filed 11/19/12 Page 30 of 36 Page ID #:1024 [Page 107]
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

you received at the Army War College included courses in curricula relevant to the issues covered by your report? A Q Yes. And that formed a part of the overall -- the professional judgment you formed based on your 35 years of service? A Q Without question. Could you describe generally the Army Command and General Staff College? A The Army Command and General Staff College is a level of education really one step below the Army War College, and focuses for its enrollment on senior captains and majors who are at a level of responsibility where operational issues are most heavily dealt with. There are a number of leadership It

modules that are part of the curriculum. also covers and interfaces with more

directly, because of the level at which the students are operating, recruiting, and retention issues at the unit level. But it

focuses at the operational level, one level below the Army War College. Q And so is that a classroom training program?
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

877-479-2484

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-6 Filed 11/19/12 Page 31 of 36 Page ID #:1025 [Page 108]
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
877-479-2484

A

There was classroom work involved, there was also a great deal of correspondence study involved. Every officer in order to be -- at

the time that I went through, in order to be considered for promotion to lieutenant colonel had to be a Command and General Staff College graduate. Q And so is it fair to say that the course work and curricula of that program included subject matters that are covered by your report? A Q Yes. And is it fair to say that your experience and what you learned through that course work formed a part of the 35 years of experience that you've testified is the basis for your professional opinion? A Q Yes. You received a master's degree from the Kennedy School of Government; is that correct? A No. I did postgraduate work at the Kennedy I believe it's represented. I misread that entry.

School. Q

Well, I misread that.

Its the master's of program.
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-6 Filed 11/19/12 Page 32 of 36 Page ID #:1026 [Page 109]
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

A

This was the senior executive in national and international security affairs. Yes, I did

postgraduate work there in 2004, and that was a program that was -- that is annually presented and conducted by the Kennedy School in cooperation with the U.S. Government to include both the Defense Department and State Department, and has about a third to 40 percent of the participants being senior officers, general officers, or flag officers or senior executive services equivalents from other countries in national security affairs to include diplomatic affairs, intelligence and military on national security. And there

was a -- it was a level even higher than the Army War College. And there were

opportunities there as part of the curriculum to study and compare the various countries' militaries. And one of the things that we

did study was the various ways that countries, not only our allies, but our non-allied countries in the way they man their militaries. Q A Okay. Man, resource, and reinforce the militaries.
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

877-479-2484

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-6 Filed 11/19/12 Page 33 of 36 Page ID #:1027 [Page 110]
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
877-479-2484

Q

Did your course work in the Kennedy program inform your -- the opinions that you've expressed in your expert report?

A Q

Absolutely. I want to ask you about your last command position. What was that again?

A

I was the Commanding General of the 94th Regional Readiness Command at Fort Devens, Massachusetts.

Q

And in that capacity you were responsible for approximately 5,000 soldiers?

A

Approximately 5,000 soldiers spread over the six New England states, and I had responsibility for the full spectrum of military operations in that noncombat environment to include resource management, facilities management, personnel, administration, discipline, recruiting, retention, maintenance, the entire spectrum of operations were mine. And this included

also the preparation for deployment, the management of the deployment module while it was deployed, and then the redeployment and reintegration of soldiers who were deployed into Iraq and Afghanistan during my tenure.
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-6 Filed 11/19/12 Page 34 of 36 Page ID #:1028 [Page 111]
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
877-479-2484

And that would have been 2002 to 2006 when we were basically at the height of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, or at least approaching the height. Q And so is it fair to say that you were responsible for the very issues that were addressed by your report, namely recruitment, retention, cohesion, morale, and so on? A Q Absolutely. Did you receive reports and data in the -- as the commanding general for that group? A Q Yes. Can you give us an example of the kinds of reports and data that you would receive? A There were -- I received monthly status reports from each major subordinate unit, giving status across strength, duty, MOS qualification, number of soldiers who were qualified on their basic weapon, number of soldiers qualified in their physical fitness, a whole range of criterion that identify the readiness status of the unit. I also

received reports on recruiting, retention, and other measures of the status of the command as a whole, driving down to the
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-6 Filed 11/19/12 Page 35 of 36 Page ID #:1029 [Page 112]
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
877-479-2484

individual units. Q Did those reports include reports on or data on recruitment and retention? A Yes. As I indicated before, recruiting and

retention was one of the functions for which I had oversight. Q Are there any ways in which a report could measure unit cohesion or did you receive any reports that you believe were relevant to the issue of cohesion? A The only reports with regard to cohesion were reports that would be an indicator of cohesion. One would be the command climate The other one would

surveys that were done.

be the inspector general report that indicated whether there were complaints initiated into the inspector general's office or the EO office to give some indication of morale and discipline that were inherent elements of cohesion. The other thing, the

other thing, although it wasn't a report, is just the normal thing that leaders do, and in being visible, out and about, and listening. Q And so is it fair to say that even though in preparing your report you did not review any
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

Case 2:12-cv-00887-CBM-AJW Document 60-6 Filed 11/19/12 Page 36 of 36 Page ID #:1030 [Page 113]
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
877-479-2484

studies or statistical analyses, that the kinds of reports and statistics and so forth that you received as a commanding officer over the course of your military career was necessarily a part of the basis for your -the opinions that you've expressed in your report? A Q Yes. For many years the military discriminated against African Americans; is that correct? A Q Yes. Are you aware of any studies or statistical analyses addressing the effect of that discrimination? MS. WALKER: Outside the scope of direct. A Yes. There are some studies that have been Objection.

done over the course of that timeframe going back to the early 50s when the military was racially integrated. Q But to clarify, are you aware of any statistical analyses or studies during the -on the effects of discrimination during the time that the military discriminated against African Americans?
U.S. LEGAL SUPPORT www.uslegalsupport.com

Sign up to vote on this title
UsefulNot useful