You are on page 1of 16

January 7, 2009

Jon Husted Residency Hearing Transcript

The Montgomery County Board of Elections met in session at 11:00 a.m. on Wednesday,
January 7, 2009. The meeting was called to order by Chairman Gregory Gantt. Members in
attendance were Thomas J. Ritchie, Dennis Lieberman, and James Nathanson.

The following is a testimony transcript of a public hearing that was held to investigate the
residency of State Senator Jon Husted.

GG The main purpose of our meeting here is this issue that we’ve discussed a couple of times
previously at our Board meeting and we have Speaker Husted, sorry Senator Husted
present. What I thought we would do is if Jon could come up to the table and Vic if you
could swear him since he is going to testify.
VW Sure…for the purposes of the record so that we are clear about what we are doing here,
this is an administrative investigatory hearing that is being conducted under authority of
ORC 3501.11 (j) duties of the Board, duties with regard to investigating irregularities
under the code. The Board received two requests to investigate. The first was received
on October 27th from Progress Ohio. The second was received on October 28th from
somebody named Regine Elliot requesting that the Board conduct an investigation into
the voting residence of Senator Husted. So this is what it’s all about. Senator Husted has
been kind enough to appear here without subpoena, and we appreciate that. I think what
we’ll do is to allow you to go ahead and make an opening statement and then we’ll open
it up to questions by the Board. I think we’ll just travel on up the table in order, if that’s
acceptable to everybody. Would you raise your right hand please? Do you solemnly
swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
JH I Do.
VW Would you state your name please?
JH Jon Husted
VW Thanks Jon.
JH Thank you Mr. Chairman and members of the Board. I would like to make some opening
comments that I have prepared. I would first say thank you for the opportunity to provide
these opening remarks. I believe it will be helpful in resolving the question that you’ve
been asked to explore. As I understand from the letter you sent inviting me to appear
today, that the question has to do solely with my residency and my ability to vote in
Kettering. The matter of service in the Ohio Senate was resolved by the voters of the 6th
District, certification of election by this Board, and the oath of office administered to me
in the Ohio Senate by Chief Justice Evelyn Stratton. I have lived in the Dayton area for
24 years, including the last 14 at 148 Sherbrooke Drive in Kettering. It is the only home I
own. It is the place that I pay my taxes, receive my mail, and where I have voted for 14
years. Not to mention that this Board has certified my candidacy at this address and my
election at this address five times in the past 10 years. During those 14 years in
Kettering, I have also worked at the Montgomery County Commissioners, the Dayton
Area Chamber of Commerce and later ran for State Representative in 2000. I have
served in the legislature since 2001. At the support and urging of the legislative
delegation, community leaders, and my own personal desire to achieve greater influence

Page 1 of 16
in the affairs of the State of Ohio on behalf of the Dayton region, I pursued an
appointment to the Finance Committee of the Ohio House of Representatives, which
controls all matters related to the State of Ohio, and soon began a campaign to become a
leader in the House majority. This was done with the recognition that it would take a
substantial commitment of time and energy applied in Columbus and travel across the
State of Ohio. However, I recognize that these were necessities of performing the job
and achieving these goals. Along the road of achieving my goals, I served as the Vice-
Chairman of the Subcommittee of Primary and Secondary Education and later was the
Chairman of that committee, a committee which held its meetings in the evening. I later
ran for and was elected to the position of Speaker of the Ohio House of Representatives.
This was the first time that someone from Montgomery County had been elected to this
position in nearly two centuries. It was a responsibility that I have taken very seriously,
just as I take my new role as Senator very seriously. Being Speaker is a seven day a
week job and included oversight of over 200 employees, 20 committees, Chairing the
Rules and Reference Committee, the Joint Legislative Ethics Committee, the Legislative
Services Committee, and the review of every piece of legislation that’s referred to that
committee and brought to the House floor. These are just to name a few of my duties.
After completing a late night Finance Committee meeting in my first term in the Ohio
House, I was driving home to Kettering and fell asleep at the wheel and drove off the
road. Fortunately, I did not crash, I was not injured, and I did not injure anyone else. I
was lucky and I learned an inexpensive lesson. At that point, I arranged to spend nights
at the home of some family that I had in the Columbus area. This was less than an ideal
solution in the short term, so I soon found an apartment for rent and another short term
solution. Over time, I have rented, owned, or stayed with family in at least six different
places while carrying out my duties. This has enabled me to do my job, but it is not my
home. My experience is not dissimilar from many current and former legislators from
both parties. In the past, Congressman Tony Hall and Senator Jeff Jacobson have
exercised their judgment on this issue. Currently, there are a notable number of
legislators of both parties who have the same or similar circumstances as I do. In fact,
some don’t even own property in their own districts or rent there, yet own a home in
Columbus and claim their voting residency in their districts. Having stated all of these
reasons that I am compelled to spend time in Columbus, let me be clear…Columbus is
not my home. I have never abandoned my residency in Kettering and when my public
service is completed, I intended to return home full-time to Kettering. As a legislator and
given these facts, I hope you will conclude as I know that under Article II, Section III of
the Ohio Constitution and under Section 3503.02 of the Ohio Revised Code that I meet
the standard and the requirements of residency. I appreciate your responsibilities and I
appreciate the opportunity to express my commitment to serving the people of the Dayton
area and how I have done so according to my oath of office and in compliance with the
Constitution and the laws of the State of Ohio. Thank you Mr. Chairman and the Board
VW All right. We’ll throw the meeting open to questions. Mr. Nathanson, do you have any
JN I have one and I reserve the right to…as I would think Board members would expect to
ask questions. I just want to be very clear, because I appreciate first of all Senator that
you appeared here voluntarily. I appreciate your willingness to help us get this matter

Page 2 of 16
resolved. The one thing that I want to be very clear on, because there was a sentence in
your testimony…It is your intention on completion of your term in public service to
return to your home in Kettering?
JH That is correct.
JN Thank you. No further questions at this time.
VW Mr. Lieberman.
DL Before I begin my questions Senator, I just want to make this statement…I have been
accused of being partisan in this matter of asking that this investigation take place. I
want to make sure that you’re clear on what my position is. My position is as a Board
member that I have an obligation under the law to look at the facts and to apply the law to
those facts. If I did anything less than that, I would not be doing my duty. I think that’s
true for all of the Board members here. We had a complaint filed, we had two
complaints. One by Progress Ohio, which arguably could be called partisan and frankly
did not impress me. It was only when we received a complaint from one of your
neighbors, that’s a Republican, that we felt that we had to do something under the law. It
is my intention not to be partisan in this matter. It is my intention to marshal the facts, to
figure out what the law is, and to apply the law to those facts and wherever it falls it will
fall. I want you to know that. I know there have been recent articles in the newspaper,
you’ve done some very good things for our community. This is not a witch hunt. This is
simply us doing our job as what we have to do.
JH I respect that.
DL I don’t think you’d expect any less. As the job you’ve done and Speaker and now as
Senator, I know that you want the law to be applied evenly to everybody. That’s what
we’re going to do. Thank you very much. With that speech, thank you very much for
coming here and answering some questions. What prompted I think the initial inquiry is
that under Section 3503.02 (d), it states that the place where the family of a married
person resides shall be considered to be the person’s place of residence, with some
exceptions, separation, divorce, that kind of thing. In a newspaper article it was indicated
that your family resides in Columbus. Is that accurate?
JH Does my family reside in Columbus? I would say that for the most part that’s accurate.
DL OK. Is there a part that’s not accurate about that statement?
JH Well, let me explore the issue since we’re going to have a discussion on what the law is,
which is something that you said. The law on the matter related to Section (d) and as I
further discovered in e-mails that I have seen pass across the way from political
operatives in Columbus that were sent to the Brunner campaign and other members of the
Brunner organization and Democratic chairmen that there is the Spangler case as it
relates to Section (d). And I would just say that when you look at the law as it relates to
this, because that’s what I did. As a lawmaker, this is what I do. We look at the laws and
any actions that I take I review them thoroughly to make sure that I am in compliance
with those laws. If you look at the remainder of the Code, you’ll see that under Section
(a)(b)(c) and (g) and (g) is most notable. Let me please read this…If a person removes
from this state to engage in the services of the United States government, the person
shall not be considered to have lost the person’s residence in this state during the period
of such service, and likewise, should a person enter employment of the state the place
where such person resided at the time of the person’s removal shall be considered to be
the person’s place of residence. This is also consistent with a similar prevision as it

Page 3 of 16
specifically relates to legislators under Article II, Section III of the Ohio Constitution.
And to the extent that…first of all there needs to be recognition as a legislator and as an
employee of the State of Ohio that the Code and the Constitution recognizes the
distinctions for what residency is applied to. In the particular case of the Spangler case as
it relates to Section (d) that is considered no longer good law and not the prevailing
thought of the courts. It was a 1984 case. There have been numerous cases over the
years, Klink vs. Irik that talk about the intent and provide leeway for someone to
establish residency in this state. There was also a case here, Lakes vs. Young in the
Montgomery County Board of Elections that ruled a candidate’s temporary removal of
his family to another district does not undermine his residency status, no by the
temporary removal of his family elsewhere either in fact nor by intention abandoned his
residency. There are other similar relevant cases, Stine vs. Brown County, Duncan vs.
Portage County, and opinion by the Ohio Attorney General in 2002 that relates to this
particular matter. In the case of Spangler, that does not deal with the legislature. It does
not deal with the specific instances covered in the rest of the law and in the Constitution.
Frankly, the Constitution and Section (g) in my particular case are relevant. To the extent
that I left Montgomery County at all, it was due to my employment with the State of
Ohio. Under Section (g) it says that Montgomery County basically shall be considered
my place of residence because for me, as a qualified elector in the State of Ohio, to do
otherwise…Let me also point out that Bell vs. Morinco case in 2004 that basically
concluded that family residency standing alone does not presumptively conclude a
voter’s residency. If fact, I could not qualify as an elector in any other county in the state
under Sections (a)(b)(c) and (g) of the law because I am a resident of Montgomery
County and to the extent that I am not here, it’s where I intend to return upon my
completion as an office holder. Therefore, I would be completely disenfranchised were
you to disqualify me as a resident of Montgomery County.
DL All right Senator, let me try this again. I appreciate the law and our job is to figure out
what that law is. I’ve done some research. We have a lawyer who is going to give us
some guidance. I don’t think it would be misplaced for you to give us a brief of your
own as to what you believe the law to be. I welcome that. We’ll take a look at that.
Today though, I think really what I’d like to do is to try to determine what the facts are so
that we can then determine…apply the law, as what you’ve stated and what we may find
it to be to those facts. (d) is only one Subsection of 3503.02. There are others. How they
all apply is how you look at the law and then come up with your final determination. But
we have to have the facts to be able to look at that. So, if we could…I’m not going to tell
you that you cannot go ahead and talk about the law if you want to, that’s fine. It would
probably be better to put it in a brief for us if that’s what you want to do.
JH Well, if I could just respond. It is entirely important to understand those facts. Section
(g), the Constitution, and a recognition that Section (g) does not apply as the courts have
held to all of the other factors that are considered when you are in the employ of the State
of Ohio or a legislator.
DL You mean Section (d), not (g)? (d) is the one…
JH Correct, yes correct. That is particularly important because for the purposes of this
discussion, I am not disputing that I spend a considerable amount of time in Columbus.
DL Right.

Page 4 of 16
JH That is not a question of dispute. I split time between both places, I acknowledge that.
The point of the matter is that I am here to explain that as a law maker, as a person who is
overseeing the House of Representatives for the past four years, it is important to know
that I have done my homework in preparation for how I’ve conducted my life and
fulfilled my responsibilities. So, I think it’s important since we’re reading this into the
record that those things be made available.
DL I’m not going to stop you from doing that, but I also have a job to get to what the facts
are. Unless there’s anything more you want to say about the law…
JH I’m sure there will be.
DL We’ll take that all into consideration, Ok?
JH I understand.
DL When I asked you if you’re family lived in Columbus, you said for the most part. What
I’m trying to get at is if there’s a part that they don’t, then what is that part? Where
would they live if they don’t live in Columbus?
JH Kettering
DL Ok. How often are they in Kettering?
JH I don’t keep records of how often we’re there or not. It all depends on the activities that
are going on, what my commitments are in Columbus, and if it makes sense to be there or
not to be there.
DL Do you know…I’m talking about your family now, not you personally, we’ll get into that
in a little bit, do you know when the last time was that your family was in Kettering?
JH Last weekend.
DL Ok. Did they stay the night or the day?
JH Last weekend…I don’t think we stayed last weekend.
DL Ok. How many children do you have?
JH I have two.
DL Do they have rooms at the Kettering residence?
JH Yes.
DL Do they go to school in Kettering?
JH I have a daughter who is two years old, so she does not attend school. My son is 13 and
his mother lives in Upper Arlington. He has attended school there since he was in
DL Ok. I think it would be helpful for you to make the record clear as to
chronologically…you’ve had your house in Kettering for 14 years?
JH 14 years.
DL You weren’t married to the person to whom you are married now at the time that you
bought the residence?
JH That’s correct.
DL When did you get married to the person you are married to now?
JH Approximately three years ago.
DL Where did she live at the time?
JH She lived in Columbus.
DL So, she had never lived in Kettering and you moved her there, it’s just that she already
lived in Columbus when you married her?

Page 5 of 16
JH And we’ve maintained…she’s maintained a house there. She’s in the real estate
business. We’ve also remodeled the house in Kettering, a project that she was
responsible for and lead. We did all that just two years ago.
DL Ok. You’re son goes to school in Upper Arlington. There seems to be some confusion as
to how many houses you own.
JH I don’t own any.
DL Does your wife own…
JH Yes.
DL Ok. How many houses does she own?
JH One.
DL Ok. Was there a time when she owned more that one?
JH I believe there has been. I believe so, yes.
DL I’m just going from my recollection…stories in the newspaper.
JH Yes, I believe so.
DL Ok. Did you have any ownership other than dower rights in any of those homes?
JH I believe in one of them I did.
DL Which one would that have been?
JH I believe it was the Brunson condominium.
DL Ok.
JH A couple of blocks from the Statehouse.
DL Ok. When did you own that? Do you know?
JH Three years ago…I don’t know precisely. That’s approximate.
DL Ok.
JH I think it was for less than a year.
DL All right. Initially, when you were a state legislator, I think in you’re opening statement
that you used to commute back and forth until you almost had a bad accident. When you
became speaker, did you get an automobile and a driver?
JH The House has several automobiles. They’re not assigned to anyone in particular. I
didn’t have a driver. We do have a security…we did have a sergeant of arms who is
security personnel, who on certain occasions would serve in that capacity.
DL OK. Would he drive you back and forth…this is difficult without putting it in a
timeline…let’s say within in the past year, Ok? Would he drive you back and forth to
your Kettering residence?
JH Has he ever done that, yes. Was it a frequent occurrence, no.
DL Ok. In the past year, how often would you come back to the Kettering residence?
JH Not daily, but at least weekly.
DL Would you spend the night at the Kettering residence?
JH On some occasions, yes. On some occasions, no.
DL Ok. Basically, pick up your mail?
JH It really depended on the day and the circumstances and what the schedule demanded of
DL Did you get the Dayton Daily News?
JH I don’t have a subscription to the Dayton Daily News. The Dayton Daily News for the
record comes to my office in Columbus. I’m a regular reader plus the online version,
which I really like, so I get updated information.
DL Good Answer. They were very nice to you last week.

Page 6 of 16
JH I don’t ride the roller coaster.
DL Back to this residency issue. You do get mail at the Kettering residence?
JH Yes.
DL Bills are sent there?
JH Yes.
DL How about DP&L. Do you pay DP&L at that residence?
JH Yes.
DL Can you tell me what you’re average DP&L bill would be for the past year at the
Kettering residence?
JH I can’t. I don’t know off hand.
DL Would you estimate that it was less than $100? Was it more than $100? Was it more
than $200?
JH I don’t know. I really don’t.
DL Do you know what the square footage of your residence is?
JH It’s property value went down because Karl sent me something the other day and that’s
not so good. I don’t know. It’s not a big place. I don’t really even know. I’m not the
real estate person in my family, so. Let me just describe it. It’s three bedroom. It’s got a
dining room, a living room, one and a half baths, a laundry room, garage.
DL Is it a ranch?
JH Ranch.
DL Ok. Do you know…when you purchased the Kettering residence, is that in your name?
JH Yes, it is.
DL I received…you haven’t seen this so I’m going to make a copy for everybody here, a
letter, I’m not going to call it an affidavit because I don’t see that it’s been signed under
oath from the Rutledge’s at 4101 Breckenridge Road in Kettering. Do you know who
they are?
JH No.
DL They report to be neighbors of yours. They have indicated that your deed is in a trust.
Do you know anything about that?
JH The only thing of it is…again, when I got married we did a will to avoid…as you get
advised to make sure that there are no problems with the probate of the distribution if
something were to happen to your property, then you put it in a trust that then you can
give to your children in the family, and likewise my wife did the same thing with her
assets. I believe that’s what they would be talking about.
DL Now, did you release your dower right in that trust?
JH I don’t know. I don’t know the details as it relates to that.
DL Ok. That would have been three years ago that you would have put that residence into a
JH Two years ago. It didn’t happen immediately.
JN I’m not try to be a lawyer…he’s going by recollection.
DL Right.
JN That’s a statement we don’t know about, so you made an absolute statement…when you
put it in trust.
DL That’s what I’m asking.
JH What ever that means…I’m just giving you the motivation for why those things happen.
It’s a fairly…

Page 7 of 16
DL Your objection is clearly noted,
JN Just go on, just go on.
DL To the best of your knowledge, it’s in a trust?
JH If we didn’t have such a high estate tax in this state we wouldn’t have those kinds of
DL You’ve got to take care that.
JH I guess we need to take care of that…something to work on.
TR We’d appreciate that.
JH I have. I got criticized the last time I did it, so.
DL Do you know where that trust would have been recorded?
JH I don’t know any answers to those questions, other than…the law firm that handled it for
me is Chernesky, Heyman & Kress.
DL Ok. That could be helpful.
JH Which is a local law firm.
DL You have no problem if asked…giving us a copy of that trust, would you?
JH I don’t know what the…I’d have to check. I don’t know what it is exactly what it is, or
what the purpose is. I don’t like to give my personal financial records out to people…
DL Sure
JH Because I don’t think anybody would expect to have to do to vote.
DL Just trying to marshal all the facts so we can make a good and honest determination as to
what’s happening. That may be one of the facts that we may need to look at.
JH Sure.
DL If we deem that it is, would you have a problem in releasing that to us?
JH I would certainly entertain that request and do my best to fulfill it.
DL Ok. Is my recollection correct, that you said you get there about once a week to your
Kettering residence?
JH No. What I said is that I’m not there daily, but I’m there weekly.
DL Ok. Can you average it for me? Is it more than once a week?
JH It really just depends on what the schedule is and what demands of my time are. That’s
as best as I can do for you.
DL Ok. It’s my understanding, and correct me if I’m wrong, ok…because I don’t know all of
this and that’s why I’m asking all these questions…it is my understanding that the house
when you’re a legislator, that you can apply for basically travel expenses to and from
your house and that it’s a bulk amount, which is provided to you. Is that an accurate
JH To the best of my ability to explain it…legislators are reimbursed for travel for one round
trip per week...
DL Ok.
JH And that’s it. If you drove five times you would get reimbursed once.
DL You did apply for that?
JH Every legislator who lives within a certain district automatically qualifies for it under the
DL And you took yours?
JH Yes.
DL You were reimbursed for the travel back and forth?
JH No. I was reimbursed for some travel, certainly not all the travel.

Page 8 of 16
DL You don’t have to detail the travel? You don’t have to say I went back to my house?
JH You don’t have to say…there’s no…I went one time this week, five times the next week.
DL Right. Where does your wife work, or does she?
JH She is an independent business owner.
DL Ok. Does she have an office?
JH I believe she does. I believe she has an office at Keller Williams, which is a real estate
company. I think she’s now the lead broker there. I think officially that’s what she does.
She also on occasion does home care visits as a physical therapist.
DL Does she work…
JH She works with sore backs.
SH That may not be advisable.
JH She’ll back a special visit for you.
DL Will she make a special trip for me? Which leads me to my next question…does she do
all of her work in Columbus? Is that where she basically works?
JH Mostly. I think there’s some work she does outside of the area, but mostly in Columbus.
DL Ok. Do you get any other newspapers delivered to you at the Kettering residence?
JH Do I get newspapers? I get all kinds of magazines…all kinds of things.
DL Ok. Understand here Senator, I’m trying to give you an opportunity here…
JH Sure.
DL To establish that you’re there.
JH Tax and Climate newspaper that I read last night. I got Tax Reform newsletter and
newspaper that I get there. Heatland Institute information…these are just things that
were in the mail yesterday.
DL Ok. Did you bring any documents with you today, which might help us with this
understanding of where your residence may or may not be? We didn’t ask you to.
JH I didn’t. Let me just…my taxes are there, my retirement is there. All of my sort of …I’m
not going to say that everything is sent there, but for the vast majority of all of the things
that I do. Sometimes I have things sent to the office because of the nature of what it is
and its more business related than personal related.
DL Sure.
JH That’s the residence that my official business is conducted through.
DL Ok. When you say your taxes are sent there, what do you mean by that?
JH My property taxes, my income taxes.
DL You pay your property taxes.
JH Yes.
DL You pay your property taxes in Montgomery County.
JH My property taxes are obviously Montgomery County based.
DL Right.
JH And my income taxes.
DL When you say are they sent there…are you saying that your accountant would send your
taxes to your Kettering address? Is that what you’re talking about?
JH When you get…my accountant is a local accountant and that’s where…
DL Ok. You pay Kettering municipal taxes?
JH Yes. As a legislator, yes.
DL Ok. How about Columbus…do you pay any taxes in Columbus?
JH Not that I’m aware of.

Page 9 of 16
DL Ok. Other than the situation where you and your wife both have…
JH I guess I’ve paid a few property taxes there for property that I’ve owned there, but
everything is moved through my local Kettering Sherbrooke address.
DL Ok. Would you have available like a private or public calendars…Blackberrys, which
could establish that you come back to Kettering for the weekend?
JH I don’t keep records my…of what I use for my personal time on any calendar.
Look…frankly as a very public figure I don’t keep my private affairs on any public
DL How about a private calendar?
JH No.
DL On your family calendar you have a trip to Kettering?
JH No. Because it happens so frequently that it’s not like something that you schedule. The
weekend before I was in Kettering. I went hunting. I Shot a deer…helped out the
farmers and the motorists from Montgomery County. I don’t put that kind of stuff on my
DL There might be some that disagree with that.
JN We won’t get into that.
DL So, you went hunting in Kettering last weekend?
JH Not in Kettering, but Montgomery County.
DL I was going to say, that would have been a problem.
JH That would be a hard place to find…I guess there are a few places down by Moraine and
NCR. Not a lot of good hunting places in Kettering.
JN Don’t mention Moraine to this Board.
DL And you come back for UD games and things like last night?
JH Yes.
DL Your PERS statements…where are those sent?
JH I believe they’re sent to Sherbrooke…I’m pretty sure of that. They may be sent to the
office, but I believe its Kettering, Sherbrooke Drive.
DL Kettering.
JH Yes.
DL How about pay stubs? Do you have direct deposit for when you get paid?
JH I think its direct deposit. I know its direct deposit.
DL What bank would it be deposited in?
JH I don’t know. My account is here with Day Air Credit Union in Dayton. It’s where I’ve
banked since I went and enrolled at UD in 1985.
DL Ok.
JH I don’t…I think…my paycheck may go to my wife’s account, though.
DL That is important.
JH That is important.
TR Sounds right to me.
GG Me too.
SH Everybody’s don’t?
TR What do you got Dennis?
DL Would that be a Columbus bank?

Page 10 of 16
JH I don’t know exactly where that’s deposited…precisely in the bank. I have my account at
Day Air Credit Union, like I said. That’s where I bank from….which I have since 1985
on Wilmington Pike.
DL Do you have any banks in Columbus.
JH I don’t, no.
DL Your automobiles…do you know where they might be registered, Montgomery County?
JH Yes, Montgomery County. Purchased at Voss. I purchased a Chevy Trailblazer, which
up until December 23rd was made in my district. Unfortunately, that’s not the case
DL Credit card bills?
JH Various places. I think my credit card goes to the office because I do a lot of expenses on
DL Do you have a telephone at the Kettering address?
JH I do.
DL Do you have a fixed phone…LAN phone as they call it now?
JH Yes.
DL Ok. Do you pay any taxes in Columbus?
JH Not that I’m aware of any more.
DL I think I may have asked that.
JH I think you did.
DL I assume…groceries that you purchase…do you purchase groceries for the Kettering
JH Yes. I purchase them for both…when I’m in Columbus and when I’m in Kettering.
Dorothy Lane Market, Trader Joes, Krogers are the kind of the places that I go when I’m
in Kettering. I see you’re nodding…you must hit the same spots?
DL That wasn’t me nodding. I go to a lower class of grocery store.
JH What’s that?
GG I saw your wife at Trader Joes two weeks ago.
DL She goes there, I don’t. I’m a Kroger person.
JN For the record it should be noted that Member Lieberman shops at a different location
than his wife.
DL All in Montgomery County.
JN I believe its where she…
JH Because they need the sales tax.
DL That’s right. If we could take a break for just for a minute. I want to make a copy to give
this to everybody. I just need to stand up for a minute.
GG Stand if recess for a minute.


GG Ok, we’re all back. When we recessed we left off with Member Lieberman.
DL I only have a couple more questions for you Senator, at this stage. I’m sure that in your
position as Speaker that you had many occasions in which you would travel…not just to
Kettering…places in the state…probably outside of the state and you would received
reimbursement for that travel, where would that be sent?

Page 11 of 16
JH There are a couple of occasions that I recall that I may have been reimbursed for travel.
If I was, I think that it would have come to my office.
DL On the application that you would make for that reimbursement, would you put your
office, your Columbus home, or your Kettering home?
JH It would depend on where I was leaving from. That would be the determination factor on
what you would be compensated for the travel to and from.
DL Do you recall any occasion which it was the Kettering home?
JH Gosh, I think so. I would think that would be the case, but I don’t know precisely.
DL I’m talking now…let’s put things into perspective…I’m talking within the past three
years? Do you recall anytime in which you would have had reimbursements sent to the
Kettering home?
JH I don’t know…again, I don’t know. I did not travel on state business where I was
reimbursed on other than a handful…It wasn’t a common thing.
DL Right.
JH Most of the time that I would travel would be something that I would pay for, or if it was
campaign related…that I would pay for out of the campaign. It would be so
infrequent…and that would be something that a staff person would handle for me. I
don’t fill out the forms and do that kind of thing, so I just don’t know.
DL Ok. You don’t have a recollection?
JH I don’t.
DL I may have asked you this question…forgive me if I did, sometimes I do this. Do you
have any banks in Columbus that you bank at?
JH Not that I’m aware of. There might be a joint account that has my name on it, but I do
not bank there.
DL Ok. A joint account with your wife?
JH Yes. I don’t personally…I don’t use an ATM card. I haven’t used an ATM card since
the early 90’s after I got charged an ATM fee and I refuse to pay it anymore. The only
checking account that I write checks out of is out of the account at Day Air Credit Union.
There may be an account that has my name on it, but I don’t use it.
DL Ok. Senator…
JH You know what, there’s also a campaign…I was also in charge of the Ohio Republican
Campaign Committee and I was the person in charge of that. That’s not personal, that’s
DL I’m talking about personal.
JH Yes.
DL The only personal account that you think that you might have in Columbus would be a
joint account with your wife?
JH That’s all I would know, and I don’t use it. I don’t write checks out of it. I don’t do
things like that.
DL You don’t write checks out of it, but from what I understood you to say…your check is
direct deposited into you wife’s account? Would it be that account, that joint account?
JH I believe so.
DL Ok. I want to factually ask you one question and then of course legally I want to ask you
one other question, which I know you wanted to get into some of this law stuff, so I’ll
give you an opportunity.
JH I don’t necessarily want to.

Page 12 of 16
DL Senator, I’ve handed you a letter from the Rutledge’s, who report to be neighbors of
yours. I don’t know whether they are or not, but they report to be. Have you had a
chance to read that?
JH Other than what I’m looking at right now, no.
DL Their address is 4101 Breckenridge Road. Is that within your neighborhood, do you
JH Yes, Breckenridge is in the neighborhood.
DL They make some allegations in here that basically you’re never there. They go by and
the mail is piled up…the newspapers are piled up.
JN Dennis, may I just interrupt for a minute.
DL I’d rather you not.
JN I know. I’m a little uncomfortable about having anyone respond…ask questions you
want, I’m not trying to stop the questions, but I feel very uncomfortable in anyone having
to respond to a series of statements, allegations by these people. We don’t know who
they are. You’ve asked a series of questions based on it.
DL Let me give you the reason why.
GG Let me jump in there. This is an e-mail from Mary Beth Rutledge to Mary Beth
Rutledge. We know she’s a lawyer here in town. I think she’s active in the Democratic
DL I don’t know that.
GG No where in here does it mention newspapers… I just read it. I’ll read it again. I’m very
suspicious of this e-mail coming in at the 11th hour addressed from herself to herself.
There’s no where here Dennis where I see any reference to newspapers piling up. It
appears to me that Ms. Rutledge has conducted her own.
DL Look at paragraph 5.
GG Paragraph 5.
DL Yes.
GG Walks around the dog. Ok, I missed that part. Sorry.
DL Before you interrupt me…you both will have your opportunities, all right? I’m not
saying this is true or false. I believe in the Democratic process of due process. Which
means, that I believe when you’re accused of something, you should be able to face your
accusers and give a response. I’m just giving the Senator an opportunity to respond to
what to what she’s saying.
JH Ask your question. I’ll respond to your question.
DL Ok.
JH I’m not going to respond to this. I’ll respond to your question.
DL Basically, she’s saying and the other neighbor who filed the complaint is that you’re not
there...your children don’t go to school there…you don’t buy groceries, etc. Their
concern is that you’re not there. How do you respond to that.
JH Well, first of all…it’s been my home for 14 years and to the extent that I am not there,
I’m conducting business on their behalf. Whether they like the job that I do or don’t. I
know that there are people that don’t. 62% of them like the job that I did and they voted
for me in the last election and 38% didn’t. I’m sure that among those 38%, there are
people that are unhappy with me and would love try to find anything they could to make
my life difficult. That’s Democracy…that’s the American process. I understand and
respect that. But, I am there in Columbus fighting for these people. I’m fighting for

Page 13 of 16
Mary Beth and Jim Rutledge everyday to make sure that this region is as strong as it can
be. They only have one person to do that. There’s only one Senator, there’s only one
Representative from that district and for the past four years there has been only one
Speaker of the House. Doing the job correctly is hard and it puts a lot of strain going
back and forth and trying to manage all of the challenges that exist in trying to do that.
Whether they like the way I’m doing it or not. I’ll just respond to one thing…we had a
power outage. If I call DP&L and I ask them for help, what am I supposed to do…ask
them to come and fix my neighborhood first because it’s me? No. I told them that look,
these folks have power outages. I want you to be aware of them. Please give them
information so that they know and they can plan. It was one of those situations that a lot
of people were suffering. I can’t just tell a utility company to fix my neighborhood just
because I happen to be in a position of authority. I asked them to do what they would do
for anybody else and to improve the way that they’re doing things.
DL Ok. Forgive me...I don’t mean…John, I’m not trying to be rough on you at all. I’m
trying to get the facts. I’m still not clear as to whether you are in Kettering, what you
would consider to be frequently or infrequently. Let’s keep this within the past three
years, or two years since the situation changed when you got married and your family
now lives in Columbus. Are you there frequently or infrequently, as you define it?
JH I understand that this is the third time that we’ve explored this question…I’ll give you the
best answer that I can. I am there weekly, but not daily and I do my best to split the time
between my responsibilities in Columbus and my obligations to the district. I feel that
I’ve done that with…to the best of my abilities.
DL Ok. I guess that makes it clearer for me. You are there weekly.
JH Yes.
DL Ok. Now, the legal question that I just wanted to ask you about. This is more a curiosity
than anything else. Under 3503.02, which we looked at earlier and you gave me…
JH Yes, we went into our little legal brief.
DL Right. Under 3503.02…I’ve looked at (d)…I’ve looked at all of this. As a legislator, do
you know why they basically exempted the United States government elected office
holder but not state office holders under this provision?
JH I don’t see that state elected office holders are treated any differently than federal elected
office holders.
DL Under (g), it only refers to persons removed from the state to engage in the services of the
United States government.
JH But if you read on...and likewise should the person enter employment of the state, the
place where such person resided at the time of the person’s removal shall be considered
the person’s place of residence.
DL But that’s a person that was in the United States government, then goes to the state.
That’s not how you read that?
JH Again, should the person enter employment of the state. I’ve entered employment of the
state, so do lots of people. I’ll repeat…under (a)(b) and(c), because I intend to return
full-time to Kettering. Under (g), it would be in my reading…I wouldn’t be able to
register to vote in any other place but where I have and intend to return to.
DL I think that this is important as far as what’s in your mind, whether it actually…I know
you’re not a lawyer, so how you read the law and what commas mean and everything
else, is something that you might not be trained in. I think it’s important to know that in

Page 14 of 16
your mind what you’re telling us is that you think (d) or (g), paragraph (g) would exempt
you from the rest of the provision as far as residency.
JH I’m saying that among the many provisions in the law…look, I’m a law maker. I can
change a law anytime I want.
DL That’s why I’m curious why it wasn’t changed.
JH I don’t believe it’s necessary…I’m not in the business of changing laws specifically for
me and it’s been very clear that under Article II, Section III of the Constitution and (g)
frankly, that disregarding all the facts that we’ve discussed here that this is…to the
extend that I am not here it’s only because I am in service to the state doing my
constitutional obligations as an elected official of employ of the State of Ohio.
DL Ok. I was just curious why that hadn’t been changed to clearly include elected state
office holders.
JH I guess we’ve been operating since…throughout time as it is pretty clear, but every once
in a while I guess people want the opportunity to clear it up and I welcome the
opportunity to do that.
DL Ok. I think you’ll be glad to know I don’t have any other questions at this time.
JH Thank you.
VW Mr. Ritchie.
TR I just want to say to the Senator and my fellow Board members…certainly any questions
that are asked here today are not intended by me to be partisan in any manner. The
statements that were given to us…evidently the chairman and other members of the
Board have privileges that I don’t have knowing that this lady is a legal representative. I
believe a person should have a right to have folks appear before this Board if there’s any
questions about the validity of the statement and if there’s any clear circumstances here.
I guess we could give opportunity for these folks who have complained to come forward
in some form of a public hearing and give testimony to the Board. For a long period of
time I’ve made my living representing folks and giving them the right to face their
accusers and to find the facts. That is the only thing that I’m concerned with here is the
facts of whether you are or not. I think those concerns should be answered before the
voters in this county and for clearness of at least myself as a Board member here. I think
that as time goes on…if there’s any doubt about any of the statements or the complaint
that’s filed, the people who made those complaints should be given the opportunity to
come forward and give their testimony before the Board members.
GG My comment is on this…this is not a complaint to our Board. We have two complaints
before us and that’s why we called this hearing. This is an e-mail sent from someone to
themselves that was provided to Mr. Lieberman. I think both Tom, you, and Dennis have
tried very hard to keep politics out of this. I appreciate that. I think I’m suspect of
something that arrives the day of the hearing that is political.
DL It’s my fault that it arrived the day of the hearing. I received it when I was in the hospital
and didn’t find it until yesterday.
GG It’s dated December 17th.
DL Today’s January 6th.
GG I understand. Not sent to you, not sent to us…I don’t give this any merit whatsoever. I
believe the Senator has answered all of Dennis’ questions. Many of the questions that I
would have had, you have already asked Dennis. I’m satisfied with his testimony. I’m
also satisfied…I’m wearing my Board hat today, but I’m also a lawyer. I don’t sit here as

Page 15 of 16
a lawyer, but I’ve litigated residency issues before. I don’t know if you have too before
Dennis, but I’m very familiar with these statutes and the Constitution. I believe probably
what I see is a public perception, where there are distinctions made for federal, state, and
different people that the average person wouldn’t understand. I know on a personal level,
my son and Jon’s son have chased each other around his back yard before. I have no
questions. Thank you for your list of questions Dennis. I’m satisfied.
VW Ok. Anything else you want to add Jon before we move on?
JH No. I appreciate the opportunity to clarify these issues and address them. Everybody
have a wonderful day.
VW Thank you very much.
JN Again, I want to thank the Senator for appearing. Thank you Senator.
JH You’re quite welcome.
DL I’m going to move that we recess briefly here, again…then come back.

Prepared by: R. Lehman

Page 16 of 16