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Tim Ferriss and Ramit Sethi: The Psychology of Testing
Ramit Sethi: Hey, everybody. Welcome to the call, thanks for coming. This is Ramit Sethi here from I Will Teach You to Be Rich, and I'm thrilled to have one of my good friends, and author extraordinaire, Tim Ferriss. Today's talk is on the Psychology of Testing. Tim, welcome to the call. Thanks a lot for doing it. Tim Ferriss: Thanks for having me. Ramit Sethi: So you and I...well first of all, congratulations on the book, last I checked yesterday it was still number one on Amazon. Tim Ferriss: Thank you very much; it's been an unusual journey, as always, it is with books. Ramit Sethi: What I want to do is talk today about the psychology of testing, but actually I just first want to share a little story. I don’t know if everyone knows this. When you were writing your book, you and I, we both went out to dinner, and I actually didn’t know what the deal was with the book at that point, and if you remember, we ordered this gigantic steak dinner. Tim Ferriss: We did? Ramit Sethi: Yeah, after we were done, we had desert and everything, and then you said: hey, do you guys mind if I order something else, I'm doing some testing. And I was like—alright, I would order another dessert, or whatever. And then you go ahead and order an entire other steak... Tim Ferriss: [LAUGHS] Ramit Sethi: And hold up your shirt to reveal some kind of weird monitor you had on your stomach, and I was like—alright, this is serious. Tim Ferriss: [LAUGHS] I remember that. Ramit Sethi: Yeah, 8,000 calories a day or whatever that was.
Audio Title: 2011-02-02- 12:59 Private Webinar with Tim Ferriss and Ramit Sethi February 2011 | Audio Duration: 62:00
Tim Ferriss: Yeah? Ramit Sethi: So this is great, I am thrilled to talk to you today about testing, but first I kind of just wanted to talk about The Four Hour Body, and any surprises that you came across, if any. Personally, when I wrote about it on my site and in my emails a lot of people were, you know, they were predictably skeptical, and even angry. Tim Ferriss: Yep. Ramit Sethi: And I can only imagine I just scratched the surface. I'm curious about the reactions from people, both, you know, people who have gotten good results and also skeptics—just out of curiosity. Tim Ferriss: The response has been, as you would expect, very polarizing. The feedback has been overwhelmingly positive, and it's been most entertaining to watch, and enjoyable to watch on Twitter and through blogs, and Wikis and so forth since one of the underlying tenets of the book is self-tracking. So you see people, literally, I would say—on some days hundreds of feedback postings and status updates on Twitter with measurements. That’s really...so there are people who've lost 20, 30 pounds since the book came out which is about a month ago—if not more in some cases. There are people who fixed fertility problems, or people who have certainly experimented with the sexual chapters, like the 15-minute, you know, orgasm, for which the book, last week, was apparently yanked from Cosco [LAUGHS]. Ramit Sethi: Wow! Tim Ferriss: Which I thought was amusing. And on the negative side, or the negative-response side, the most controversial chapter is definitely Geek to Freak, the muscle gain chapter—for whatever reason—and there are some very smart weight trainers out there, there are also a lot of meatheads, and the meatheads take very personal offence that I would even claim that such a change is possible, despite the documentation. So that was very controversial. I did talk very openly about anabolic; meaning anabolic steroid, the different factors it could be used, surgery, et cetera, and that did not seem to spark much controversy at all which was surprising to me and it doesn’t make a difference because I wrote it to be valuable not just to be controversial, but it really did not produce the type of...the outburst that I expected through, say, morning TV shows.
great. one of the things I've learned as I've written books. that meal where I had the two steaks was the night before the opening scene in the Sex Machine – Adventurers in Tripling Testosterone chapter. then that is allowable but not ideal. Whereas. So let's talk about data and testing. [LAUGHS] Ramit Sethi: That's funny. And what about you. all of that starts with tracking data. and whey. but the how to didn’t change. but my perspective really hasn’t varied much. right. So there were a few points like that and I wanted to clarify. like knowing and having gone through all this. are you continuing to follow the basics of it. I would say that the same investigator assumptions there. and I think that’s true whether you're split testing a website.Audio Title: 2011-02-02.12:59 Private Webinar with Tim Ferriss and Ramit Sethi February 2011 | Audio Duration: 62:00 It didn’t even come up—never once did it come up that I can recall on any interview—which was surprising to me. and so forth and so on. the why to and the explanation and mechanism changed a bit. certainly the testing approach because it's just based on the scientific method. you may not be smart. Ramit Sethi: Oh. or split testing a diet. or whatever. Ramit Sethi: Okay. you may be really smart. and then start doing some tests. I forgot you were at that meal. And for those people curious. but as they get more experienced they kind of discard some of that and grow with some of it. which is the idea that. at a certain point. or have you changed anything since the publication? Tim Ferriss: I have kept the same approach. I know that that dinner makes a guest appearance in the book. And some people shouted from the rooftops about how Tim Ferris was contradicting himself. and met other authors that. you know. 3 . and didn’t make any sense. For example. where I would suggest that you eliminate dairy but if the only protein you can consume in the morning is whole fat cottage cheese. in reality I didn’t want to get into the details which related to insulin immune index. you will often walk your own world with the results you can get. sometimes authors may have followed their own philosophies and patterns. This is one thing that I have been hammering years with. Tim Ferriss: I believe. yes. Since you’ve written the book. it's not changed. In the case of the exact protocols there were a few areas that were a bit confusing to more than a handful of people. but ultimately if you can get a testing mentality and testing mindset. you may be experienced or inexperienced.
12:59 Private Webinar with Tim Ferriss and Ramit Sethi February 2011 | Audio Duration: 62:00 Tim Ferriss: Mm-hmm. I use Super SU. and you and I have spent a lot of time talking about different tests we've run. close to a dozen different advertisements that readers designed for the book. different types of drug protocols. but I'll bring it up now. or any other kind of test. meaning click through right to the same headline across different time zones. Ramit Sethi: And you did a great job with The 4-Hour Body. to the extent that it determined my choice of school. so tested. Ramit Sethi: [LAUGHS] Tim Ferriss: So it was one of my motivations for going reasons for going. so I want to just start by asking you what is testing—how do you think about testing. like I would just use two different time zones. let's say. and then from the personal standpoint. and people would embrace testing more if they looked at it that way. I actually get very excited when I prove myself wrong. and I know that we were going to touch upon this. different types of exercise protocols. and give us a couple examples of some things you do test? Tim Ferriss: I think about testing as honestly. and so on and on and on. and I could hit Facebook on one and hit Twitter on another. which may be a mutation. it was really that I wanted to avoid math. Tim Ferriss: I mean. of course. And I think part of the reason.. so I'll test the response. I've tested all the physical stuff which would include thousands of blood tests. and you and I both know that it's not mathematically complex at all.PR and I can schedule to release blog posts through those broadcasting means at two different times. whether it be split test. Ramit Sethi: [crosstalk 11:59] of avoiding math. So I would say that the process of discovery is exciting to me. We've tested video response. I would say. But I test everything from blog headlines and I can do that a number of different ways. you really just have to know a few different numbers. I will certainly test advertisements. it could be. Part of the reason people are phobic about testing is they think of it as mathematically complex. so I understand how 4 . fun experiments. and you're talking to someone who went to Princeton University partially because it didn’t have a math requirement [LAUGHS]. We tested in – at the top right of the blog underneath the blog post video.Audio Title: 2011-02-02..
. Ramit Sethi: I love what you said about: you like to disprove yourself. or talk to them on the phone and see what they 5 . necessarily.12:59 Private Webinar with Tim Ferriss and Ramit Sethi February 2011 | Audio Duration: 62:00 people feel when they're phobic about math. very easy to do. Ramit Sethi: So let's say from a business perspective. Tim Ferriss: Yes. meaning can you get those customers since they're already your most profitable. it's not like—let me try to test this for some sophisticated mathematical.. is they don’t understand where they are first. statistical regression thing. alright... or where do you live? And I tested it and it was like a huge difference in the response rate. But you don’t have to actually.Audio Title: 2011-02-02. Can you get them to buy more frequently by putting them into a continuity program of some type. and then test different cross selling – up-selling packages on those most profitable. what are like two or three things that you could start testing today? Tim Ferriss: And that’s for business purposes? Ramit Sethi: Let's say business. what would you touch on? And then let's talk about conversational testing as well. Tim Ferriss: Or any purpose? Ramit Sethi: Yeah.. I want to. within ten tests I could find a huge difference. Because at a certain point it becomes game. I mean.. that you really don’t much. So if you're just a normal person. but you could shoot out an email. So what I would say. This is another mistake that people make. any purpose. lowest maintenance customers. So if you could..80 percent or more of the profit. you know. and this would all be verbal.. for me. let me see if this is right or wrong.or an email. is do an 80/20 Analysis of your customer-base to identify the 20 percent of customers who are saying 80 or more of the profit. Tim Ferriss: Yeah.. I spoke recently about testing responses when someone asks me what do you do. it's very. It's just like: hey. to buy larger packages at the time. So if I'm thinking about—as broadly as possible—from a business standpoint I would do an 80/20 Analysis of your customer-base just to understand your baseline first. and you certainly can't process the credit before you do that. think through how you're going to deliver all these things to begin with.. especially now with the tools that are available. just like your. And then they jump out and start doing testing.
I mean.Audio Title: 2011-02-02. Joe is like: hey. Ramit Sethi: So people can also take this 80/20 Analysis which you wrote about as a 4-Hour Work-Week. on a day-to-day basis where are they spending their time and where are they getting their results? And the first common reaction people get when you tell them about 80/20 Analysis. and they're like: hey. or all kinds of crazy excuses. So. Ramit Sethi: And I can immediately cut that off or delegate it and you open up.. won't change anything.. and just by doing that alone.and you're just going to be hitting. I've done it. let me put you in a group email for my dinner that you can't come to. of which options they are most open to. And then. especially if you have phone. yes. And when people do that. was my new auto-responder. Tim Ferriss: Yes. Tim Ferriss: Right. just an analysis in and of itself. absolutely. is you send your secret email to someone. and this is after having bat-cave secret email. 10 or 20 customers but you should be able to get a pretty clear indication. Or I can't do that because I don’t live in San Francisco. sometimes two hours a day just by doing that analysis. and I think that’s it. Have you had that experience too? Tim Ferriss: Oh. [LAUGHS] 6 . and I was also able to increase my profit by about 30 percent just by focusing on those types of customers asking those types of questions. You're not even. and I try to do it ever so often. And then before you know it. that type of testing. and I'm always astonished. meet Joe. they’ll say things like: well that only works if you run your own company. I'm spending 40 percent of my time doing that. just two days ago I realized how much email had overtaken my time.12:59 Private Webinar with Tim Ferriss and Ramit Sethi February 2011 | Audio Duration: 62:00 would be most open to. and it has literally no outcome whatsoever. and they can also apply it to their own work. in 2004. let's say. but you and I know what happens. I'm like—really. a very clear example of testing using a telephone or email. Ramit Sethi: And the truth is like—you don’t have to change anything. and so something that I just split tested and you actually tweeted about this. I was able to take my management of my customers—my customer service—from 60-plus hours to less than two hours a week by focusing on those most profitable customers. I don’t know if you want to tell people what my new auto-responder was. you have a thousand people emailing you. it's just going to give you some insight.
that’s not the entire auto-responder.I sent Tim an email and then the response came back in auto-responder instantly.. it stopped the emails.. Ramit Sethi: Yeah. that’s the analysis part. or simply not doing it. it can be as simple as that. you can often find huge things that you're wasting time on and then it becomes a question of: how do I deal with it. and getting better results which have more meaningful things. Ramit Sethi: And I thought that was very classy. very nice... agreed. you can get a lot of benefits when you first start working out or stopping smoking for the first time..you know. one of the things I hear from a lot of people. [LAUGHS] Tim Ferriss: [LAUGHS] So that is. And for a lot of people who work at nineto-five jobs. Tim Ferriss: Yeah. starting to work out for the first time. it's almost like going forward.. just so people understand what the followup is to that. and we are going to opeb up for question in a few 7 . one thing that can be done is to start by doing an 80/20 Analysis. absolutely.. When you do this first analysis... [LAUGHS] Ramit Sethi: [LAUGHS] Tim Ferriss: And to be fair. Ramit Sethi: What about like.. because it said. please email me again in March if it's still relevant. Ramit Sethi: Yes. yeah..12:59 Private Webinar with Tim Ferriss and Ramit Sethi February 2011 | Audio Duration: 62:00 Ramit Sethi: Yeah. They're like. But a lot of times people entangle those two things and that’s why they don’t start testing. understand what you're spending your time on. in other words where are you spending your time.. and it said: Thank you for your email. First. so far that’s – that’s definitely the most effective. Tim Ferriss: Yes.they start worrying about the results when they just need to worry about the analysis upfront. And when you find something.Audio Title: 2011-02-02.it can be as simple as that.. I've tested a lot of auto-responders.. So you disentangle those two things.. and often when you do it for the first time. and then it can be delegating it or convincing your boss to let someone else take it over. But yeah. and where are you getting the results. that’s. sadly it will be deleted. I think that that..you know. Tim Ferriss: At the bottom it says: I'm taking four weeks off of email. I literally started cracking up yesterday alone in my apartment.
Have you encountered this with people? Have you ever been nervous about at test you’ve run. with first of all. and small doesn’t mean 90 percent off. And once again though. let's say. if you're listening live. and they said: oh. and I bought it for $10. there's a place 8 .com very easy. Small means an absolute number that’s not intimidating to you. and then nothing happened.12:59 Private Webinar with Tim Ferriss and Ramit Sethi February 2011 | Audio Duration: 62:00 minutes.Audio Title: 2011-02-02. guys.5 million. so they played them all like at 5:35 a. the subtitle of my new book. Okay. and it ended up being too good to be true.. that’s great advice. But I was tricked by this. it would be when people are driving their cars. So if I test. start small. like: I'm nervous about doing this. and then I shot it out with a SurveyMonkey survey. So I started off with 50 to 100 friends. And $10. and if so what have you done about that? Tim Ferriss: I've been nervous about tests that I've run when I've bet too much. And I found out that Drive Time was technically—this is why it's important to know the details—between. excellent. to 50 to 100 of my friends and acquaintances who are good marketers.000 to me at the time was extremely.it was a huge.. So I assumed—of course it's going to be worth more than $10.000 to $750. And then once I had that data and hopefully a little more comfortable with it. huge sum of money. and that was when I negotiated with a radio syndicate for advertising and there was a – I think it was like to $500. Now $10. But starting off small—one test that I was very nervous about running was something that seemed too good to be true. And the ads were supposed to be run during Drive Time. so a lot of people talk about fear.surveymonkey. and still to this very day that’s extremely small. I blasted it out to Twitter and Facebook in the middle of the day. they actually don’t use this word very often.000 was way too intimidating and way too serious for me to bite off at one chunk. there were no orders coming in—none—no phone calls. anyone listening right now. et cetera. yeah. I put together somewhere between five and ten subtitles that I could live with.m. Once I had a feedback then I tested it on my Facebook fan page in the middle of the night—like 2:00 in the morning—to get a few hundred people perhaps.the retail price and what I negotiated it for. and that was lesson learned.000 ad campaign that had been cancelled by a big pharma company and I negotiated and negotiated and negotiated. I don’t think I have the ability to test... and I think it's important. I think it was 5:30 in the morning and 8:30 in the morning. huge. but they’ll say code words for fear. which I did. Ramit Sethi: Yes. just www.000 because they were selling it for almost $1 million or $0. Is the thing about the idea about fear. start small.000. Okay.
so when I go to the gym now and I'm using some of your material. I can work on stuff that’s going to get me disproportionate results. you can help me. and it stands for. health.. Ramit Sethi: Oh. when I began planning 4-Hour Body. Tim Ferriss: Mm-hmm. almost never recommend this. I don’t even remember what the T stands for. 3-X 4-X what other people would do. Tim Ferriss: Mm-hmm. before we even had a title for it. And when I was preparing today I was thinking about you writing a book. here we go. but there's something called a SWOT Analysis.. Tim Ferriss: Okay. Ramit Sethi: Can you talk about how do you think about disproportionate results and give us a couple examples of how you’ve implement this into your life? Tim Ferriss: So to determine where your leverage points are. 9 . there are few things.Audio Title: 2011-02-02. Ramit Sethi: That’s you. yeah. the 80/20 Analysis that you did of your customer service. but I don’t usually use this MBA term which makes me crazy. but—Strengths. When I think of the person who most embodies getting disproportionate results. what would you prefer. so that is putting in a certain amount of effort but getting 2-X. or this? What should I put in the book? Which expert should I contact? That type of thing and I had people fill out Google forms to provide their information. Tim. one thing that I want to shift to now. just by looking at blog comments. which I do by the way. weaknesses. I knew I could get feedback from the blog and identify which content was most likely to be popular from the very outset. is talk about disproportionate results. I knew I had the blog—strengths. And to give an example. I think you should always be trying to do. opportunities. so SWOT. I would say that it's helpful and I never recommend this. but it makes sense when you're trying to get disproportionate results. Or by asking.. it was strengths. I don’t have work on stuff that’s not going to produce results. threats—that’s what it is. Alright.12:59 Private Webinar with Tim Ferriss and Ramit Sethi February 2011 | Audio Duration: 62:00 on the right side of your screen to ask a question so go ahead and ask those questions and we will try to answer them in the next—will do it in about 15 minutes. Would you prefer this..
.. at Barns and Noble. and the click-through rate for the second advertisement. certainly you'll notice that I targeted very heavily a handful of outlets that were entirely tech-focus. let's say. I didn’t know the book buyers. I knew that [inaudible 24:23] and Barefoot Contessa would be a threat. you know. is the minimum of what these number is. that you actually like sufficient. oh. and when you say you plan around that. I hate that ad it makes my blog look like it has a Catch The Monkey—with an iPod advertisement on it. and that was 50. and you stick with that ad. So that would be. the third one is the ugly one that you hoped wouldn’t work. for me. and I looked at all the book scale numbers to find out what their sales numbers looked like. Ramit Sethi: Can you give me an example. and they’ll say. for example.Audio Title: 2011-02-02. Tim Ferriss: You get an ad and you're like—what. Ramit Sethi: All the time. And then threats would be looking at. the timing. But if you define what your target monthly income is. my god. Opportunities—nothing like his had been pushed through the tech channels before so if you look at my eventual launch. and I think that when many people test. Timing is really important so I knew precisely which I competing against yes. okay we have these three ads. but you kind of don’t like the third one. this one is better than the second one. et cetera. and this is very similar to The 4-Hour Work Week—I'm sorry—The 4-Hour Body rather. they were number one in The New York Times. they don’t have a goal that’s acceptable. let's say..12:59 Private Webinar with Tim Ferriss and Ramit Sethi February 2011 | Audio Duration: 62:00 Weaknesses—I'd never been in that category. so I could identify how many copies appeared. okay. click through analysis. and in my case for the campaign I knew that my target was 50. So I knew The Guiness Book of World Records was a significant threat.. And that then gives me what I would call. so they’ll do. Mashable. like: Gizmodo and TechCrunch. that’s number one. [LAUGHS] Ramit Sethi: [LAUGHS] Tim Ferriss: Which happens a lot with testing . I needed to sell minimum to have a chance at number one. I didn’t know the category buyers for health and fitness. what do you mean by that? Do you mean that you were not. and then it worked. 10 . What is your goal.000 copies in the first week. and Guiness I had multiple years to look at.000 book in the first week minimum. and I could plan around that and it made everything else easier to put into place.
probably a month to a month and a half from. but I mean. Tim Ferriss: Yes. I would say that my inclination or my intuition would say most people don’t target disproportionate results. and recognizing that I had limited time.000 books. So if you look the SWOT Analysis I just gave.. but you're still going to have all the results of that hard work you put in. going after. think about two years from now. is that what you mean? Tim Ferriss: That’s one thing that I would. Tim Ferriss: Yeah. What that also meant was I wanted to gauge how much work I needed to do early on and if you recall. and I wanted Barnes and Nobel. I wanted to try to focus on initiatives and campaigns that could move 1. tend to default and this was true for me for a long time as well. you know. Ramit Sethi: Interesting.if I'm guessing correctly—before the book came out which gave the buyer the chance to get very enthusiastic and I mean everybody freaked out because I broke just about every record they’ve ever had. you're not even going even remember how much work you put into that.. one of my weaknesses was that I didn’t know the buyers at Barnes and Noble. to working harder to fix overwhelm. and ended up selling close to 8. but sometimes we don’t do the disproportionate work in order to get it. and what that would mean then. I would focus on 10 or 15 and really try to do a in-depth thesis with those people.Audio Title: 2011-02-02. and that became one of my criteria. Now when we think about disproportionate results and you think about. to love me so I did an exclusive signed edition of the book that could only be bought through BN. but in general. absolutely. This was well before the book came out. you did all the research. we all want disproportionate outcomes.. a lot of my planning falls right in line with having that data in front of me. which I broke a few times.12:59 Private Webinar with Tim Ferriss and Ramit Sethi February 2011 | Audio Duration: 62:00 for example. absolutely. Ramit Sethi: And disproportionate results.it's generally hard to fix 11 . And I got very excited about the book. that is an extraordinary level of work. and then re-up orders for retail placement. So just listening to your story.. And I would also say that people.000 copies..yes. let's say the average person.000 book or more. and the thing is. and fixing over.Com. you knew the book scale numbers. so I decided that I would try to focus on outlets that I felt could produce book sales of 1. just the fact that you knew who you were going up against. that I also would. your going to look back. rather than getting a very. very short mention from 100 blogs. I mean. places that were going to sell 50 books.. they might do the same thing as someone in their very same industry or at their same job...
Ramit. they need really specific tactics and one of the points The Effective Executive makes is that the best executives made very few decisions. Peter Drucker. which is about doing a time audit just like we've been discussing. be honest. Ramit Sethi: That seems to work really well for you. Tim Ferriss: Yes..12:59 Private Webinar with Tim Ferriss and Ramit Sethi February 2011 | Audio Duration: 62:00 overwhelm by working harder. for those who don’t know is probably the most famous management theorists in the last hundred years. So. but it's more than worth that to reach. it's probably 120 to130 pages and it is an outstanding book that I would recommend everyone read. I mean two days ago I had 700 unread email and I spent 3 hours going through. it's very short and it's called The Effective Executive by Peter Drucker. just an incredible guy. how many hours a day you spend on email for example. and systems to make it better. for example. it will produce some temporary problems.you won't be able to start from scratch and focus on other things. Whenever they run into 12 . Tim Ferriss: Right. as you know. and that will produce some small problems. And if you're in state of overwhelm right now. exactly. before I actually read any Drucker. and then determine what needs to change in terms of process for you to fix the problem in a sustainable fashion. And one think I would throw out there is. you could still sit down and do the hard thinking so you know where you are. And I thought it was going to be a bunch of BS quite frankly. type of: work with integrity. I thought it was going to be really high. and set up my auto-responder. find some numbers that illustrate where you are.Audio Title: 2011-02-02. so what I try to do is before game time or at the earliest point possible is to do the hard thinking. upfront so I prevent that overwhelm from happening in the first place. You’ve always been about not just devoting willpower to something. picking out some of the most important and then I just threw out everything. Ramit Sethi: Yeah. you have to focus on your core values. there is a great book. And don’t get me wrong. pie in the sky. So I think really taking the time to do the hard thinking in the beginning will save you the stress of continually working harder and never seeming to make any progress later. it doesn’t work very well. but actually setting up processes. all that stuff is important but to someone who is treading water and overwhelmed none of that helps. There's a chapter called Know Thy Time..
before we talk about our final topic and then take questions.. they create a rule for it so they don’t have to think about it in the future. Look at your calendar for the last. Tim Ferriss: Right. figure out who is going to be most useful to me and then do whatever necessary to try to become buddy-buddy with those people. essentially.I'll tell you what I don’t do. which you have demonstrated very well in the last few months. try to identify the. look at the last one week. let's say. going big..Audio Title: 2011-02-02. the last thing I want to talk about. if you want to ask a question go ahead.. I will go to an event. they just wanted to promote you. Tim Ferriss: There are a few things that I would say—so the first is. general group of persons who could be very helpful. get your book. Drucker also said. And I wanted to talk about the power of the network.. and he's also very famously quoted as saying: what gets measured gets managed. very interesting. how do you get to where you want to be. I'll just ask anyone listening live. you don’t have to do the last ten months of your calendar. use the panel on your right and we are going to try to answer as many as possible. Ramit Sethi: Exactly.talk about small test. Okay so.12:59 Private Webinar with Tim Ferriss and Ramit Sethi February 2011 | Audio Duration: 62:00 a problem or something that consumes a lot of time. so let's move. So I remember Charlie who worked for both of us. is there any chance that this will happen again? And if so. whether that’s 13 . which is how most people think of networking. and how they can prevent it in the future. and they wanted to help out. Right. I wonder if you can talk about how you think about your network. that: Just like we look at our spending and we might try to keep a budget to analyze where our spending is going—do the same with your time. Tim Ferriss: Yes. without getting that baseline as you said. but everyone has a network. you didn’t even ask people to promote you. is the power of your network. similarly. he talked about how—you couldn’t have done what you did without all your friends. Okay. it's going to be impossible for you to get where you want to go. before our final thing. What I don’t do is go to an event. Tim. Ramit Sethi: Nice. even one. you don’t. without sitting down. where do I want to be spending my time. and just say: you know. They just decide what their default action will be in the future. and then feel out the difference. Not everyone has a book. where am I spending my time. and works for you now. Ramit Sethi: And everyone can use that network and help that network and nurture. that’s a Peter Drucker quote. they ask themselves.
It's because we actually get along and we share things in common outside of whatever our business interests might be. you know. also.. I really dislike that approach. I'm still friends with those people. I don’t wear implants. who do think I'd really get along with? These are the things I'm interested in. buddy.friends help their friends. but let me tell you what that doesn’t mean.. I do that—I like climbing. the people I became friends with initially when I was building the groundwork for 4-Hour Work Week. 14 . and it's so clear when people do it... I do this..I mean with your best friends. ever. That makes me fucking insane. I like physical testing. I'm kind of weird. When you do someone a favor you can hope that they’ll help you in future with something. and I really dislike when people do it to me.. it's like. let's say.it's so crass. Do not do a favor simply as a way to line up something you're going to ask them to do in the future. do you remember when I did that. that sounds bad. And I think that’s a very important distinction because if you look at. you don’t keep track of that kind of stuff. So that’s the basic.. I think that that.. And if you're legitimately friends with these people you shouldn’t do that either. They're like: hey.. four years and it's not like I've only stayed friends with them because they’ve had some utility for that entire time..12:59 Private Webinar with Tim Ferriss and Ramit Sethi February 2011 | Audio Duration: 62:00 programmer of some specific type or someone who knows about that specific topic. So help people but don’t expect them to come back and then help you because of that favor. The last point I would make is that I think many people spend 20 percent of their time building their product and 80 percent of their time thinking about the magical marketing solution. and I really try not to do it to other people. and this is another common mistake.. and I don’t do it. and then I'll go to the organizer of the event.. You know.and I've been friends with them for three.Audio Title: 2011-02-02.friends do. but you should not accept it. at least. and I'll say: of the people in my group. who do you think I'd actually hit it off with? I would then meet someone who had a very cool skill set and..but at the same time I would meet someone that I could be friends with even if they did not have that skill set. The second point I would make is that you should. But I would say a few things. speaking for myself. I think. I put implants in my side to test glucose. And it's a hell of a lot more effective.. I wear implants—ah. and they should switch that entirely and spend 80 percent of the time making the best product humanly possible and 20 percent of the time on marketing.don't.
.. and dinners. and just doing a kick ass job volunteering at these events which generally included a panel of five to six business titans of some type and the moderator. for coffee. What did your email say? What exactly did you write.the biggest mistake are. and I wanted to expand my network. Or for some reason making up an excuse why they couldn’t do it. So you have to also provide something that they’ll actually. why would anyone want to meet with them.well there were a few things. or if I'd gone to Bryan at Gizmodo and given him a really crappy book. Princeton grads. will actually enjoy and benefit from and want to share. and let me explain how I fixed that. Second was—I found it much more fun and effective to. So for me to send an email. 200 bucks to come to these events. in my case. usually the chairwoman of the organization. and it won't.. because I. first job out of college and working in a tech startup. I moved out to California. because I want other people to know how they can go. you know.Audio Title: 2011-02-02.org I'm pretty sure it's still around. it would have made everyone uncomfortable. you're toast. I ended up volunteering for a group called the Silicon Valley Association of Startup Entrepreneurs which is. [LAUGHS] to do it on my own.. Ramit Sethi: So well wind this back to Tim pre-4-Hour Work Week. and it would probably led a great many people saying—no.. not of great interest to me. you can't. the first is that I recognized after trying it for a while that it was futile. and they were pretty fancy events. so what did you say? Tim Ferriss: When I wanted to meet with someone? I'll tell you what I did.the biggest mistakes I see in networking are those three.the word-of-mouth is not going spread through marketing.12:59 Private Webinar with Tim Ferriss and Ramit Sethi February 2011 | Audio Duration: 62:00 So if I want to come to you for that matter. Also thinking that networking will fix a bad product. you know. a lot of people. and I volunteering. I think that it's. I could approach people who were let's say.. financial management consulting. and I cannot overstate that enough. you need a good product. because you can effectively buy the first round of customers with marketing.SVASE.. and you were sending emails and meeting bloggers and meeting all these people. which includes your network. www. your fan base. I mean. that’s how we met.. but in a digital world. 15 . if I'd gone to you. we can't do this.. we really love your help by doing a big blog post on this—it would have been horrible. then you're dead. people would spend 100 bucks. as to what even to say in an email.well a few things. and then like: hey guys. but for the most part. they're stuck..
getting to know Laura Roden who is the chairwoman of all of SVASE. Then I pushed Laura and asked her if I could actually manage an entire main event. who ended up becoming my agent for The 4-Hour Work Week. or whose name will be credible when I contacted those people. he introduced me to the gentleman.Audio Title: 2011-02-02. Notice that it wasn’t some grand. I agree. where I thought I'd be helpful. 16 . let's get to questions. So that’s how I got to know. so I ended up basically managing the other volunteers because I was the one who would step up and volunteer to do it.. and so forth and so on. good things are going to come your way. Jack Canfield many years later. seizing an opportunity that most people would want to do because it's more work. Tim Ferriss: Yes. Steve Hanselman. helping people and then one day. Ramit Sethi: Tim. the point is going and testing different approaches. always offering value. strategic master plan. I guess probably—let me think about this—five years later. very practical approach. and not overplaying my hand and being too aggressive. And I made a point of by doing that. Ed Byrd. that’s how I got to Ed Byrd who commercialized creatine. Tim Ferriss: Sure. But when you put yourself in the middle of a cool transaction or a cool success. So I built my network in large part through volunteering at nonprofits. and you're not getting paid. Ramit Sethi: Nice.. She allowed me to come to this meeting. Ramit Sethi: I love it. and I then went to two or three of those meetings trying to offer suggestions. For everyone listening. and here is the point to pay attention to—to recruit the five to six business titans to come speak on the panel. So if I could be the one who effectively produce the event. let's try and extract the points. it's more work. Tim Ferriss: That’s how I got to know Jack Canfield. it was just a series of systematic steps. people will recognize makes a cameo in The 4-Hour Work Week. and I think that’s a very. it's not the point. offering value. It's not about picking a nonprofit to work for. and I asked her after maybe the third event if I could possibly sit in on a board meeting to hear what their plans are and see how I could help further.12:59 Private Webinar with Tim Ferriss and Ramit Sethi February 2011 | Audio Duration: 62:00 And I volunteered for a few events and I always took on more responsibility than I had to. that already had access to those people.
love it. but there is one side bar in The 4-Hour Work Week. and it has to do with creating an index and notes—typically on the bottom right hand page of—or right hand corner of pages. rather. in my case.12:59 Private Webinar with Tim Ferriss and Ramit Sethi February 2011 | Audio Duration: 62:00 Ramit Sethi: Let's shoot to questions straight away. I don’t have to go and look for material. or speaking at a well-known university as a lecturer or speaking at well-known companies. and it was very. on my blog. He says—how do you sift through the large amount of information you have access to when you research your topics. it's helpful to read and I usually plug this hard.. Alright so we will start with a couple different ones. whether that’s by volunteering for SVASE. typically I've been keeping notes on it for two to five years. Alright. will help you get further when you're contacting people who have already sifted through the information which ultimately. but I do have a note-taking system.. very easy to deal with. Do you have any sort of note-taking system? Tim Ferriss: Ooh. I also try to identify people who have already sifted through that information and if you're simply contacting someone for a clarification they tend to be very. one thing which is—whenever I go t write a post. et cetera but I know that when I start brainstorming a topic. anything like that that will allow you to say something along the lines of: I work with this organization or have worked with this newspaper and therefore credible. and sometimes I just have text files. so I reached out and contacted Scott.credibility. I had already read a book called Born to Run.Audio Title: 2011-02-02. and reach out to experts.. when I was looking at running for The 4-Hour Body. that’s a good question and I wish I could ask him a follow-up question to clarify. or writing a piece for a wellknown newspaper. I've already been saving. Ramit Sethi: I love it. And I think that before you do these types of things. Or. It's not organized as well as you would love. I do have a particular way of taking notes when I read books in particular. let's say. and Scott Jurek made an appearance in that book and his name had to come up a number of times. Having just a few lines of bar. If you look up: How to Take Notes like an Alpha Geek. for what it's worth. I issued an entire blog on how I take notes in books. very helpful So you could. 17 . I have notes in different email tags. we've got a ton of them here. This one is from Paul. I think. is the fastest way to do so. and it's about establishing credibility. I have notes in my Delicious tags. called The Expert Builder. or let's say the blog of a well-known newspaper which is not that hard to do. when I'm sifting through a lot of information..
12:59 Private Webinar with Tim Ferriss and Ramit Sethi February 2011 | Audio Duration: 62:00 Tim Ferriss: Yes. if there's someone factually incorrect in their criticism and even then I don’t do it very often. So I used Evernote. and again. so. and that’s just S-c-r-i-v-e-n-e-r. was extremely.. it's folders or documents.Audio Title: 2011-02-02. then Scrivener and the publisher had to use Word. let's say the chapter that you're working on. Tim Ferriss: You actually brought up a really good point. Ramit Sethi: And what's the name of that software you use for your book.. extremely helpful. I would say that Evernote. yeah. yes. The only time that I really try to respond to naysayers is if there's something. let's take this question from Holly. Ramit Sethi: Alright. I almost never respond to criticism off of my blog. on the left-hand pane. is that the one you were thinking of? Ramit Sethi: Yeah. I mean. you can have your text document you're working on. And it's such a simple. quite frankly. very fascinating to me it's typically used or screenplays. is that you can create a table of contents. while it's easy to ignore these people it's not constructive to ignore everyone. and the reason Scrivener is very. So how do deal with naysayers? Tim Ferriss: Try to be polite. seemingly simple feature so to have your research and what you're writing on the screen at the same time in a way that is easy to use. because I could do it all day long. I thought it was really fascinating? Tim Ferriss: Scrivener. so we moved to Word very reluctantly. Ramit Sethi: That’s really saves me a lot of horror. I could spend the next week straight just responding to 18 . it's a split screen and below that you have you research. Ramit Sethi: And pulling up the most important pieces for years.. What is your strategy for dealing with naysayers.. but if you're doing it on your own. Tim Ferriss: Yes.if you're talking about online data gathering. I use Evernote. and then on the right-hand pane you can split the screen. and Scrivener are very helpful in combination. Tim Ferriss: So I use Evernote to gather data online and then I use Scrivener for writing. I use Evernote s my default center for gathering everything.
So I really very rarely respond. and typically I'd just be very polite and I'd say something along the lines of: If you think of.12:59 Private Webinar with Tim Ferriss and Ramit Sethi February 2011 | Audio Duration: 62:00 negative TechCrunch comments about me [LAUGHS] I mean.. Ramit Sethi: Yeah.. Also we will also send a link for that. even if that person responds back and they're like—hey. or whatever.. so just keep it up and remember that last point I left you with.. so you can see how this statement is only accurate if you make his change. You said this. so I'll say something like: I understand how you would feel that way. So you basically have a positive-negative-positive. The last time my glucose was 97 when I went to 19 . you know. Here's one point to keep in mind though. sincerely. in fact. go fuck yourself. so if you searched Tim Ferris—How to deal with haters. if I had read that other person's post I would probably respond in the same exact way. Ramit Sethi: Love it. but you know. C. Number two—pretty frequently that person will turn around and like— oh. then your readers will. This guy kicked my dog and my wife split my face. you're really doing a great job with A. Sorry about that. I really think that you have a lot of potential to do the following great things in the next few months. like I really appreciate your calm response. which managers use sometimes.Audio Title: 2011-02-02.it happens it does. Your readers will have.. Tim. B.there's an approach called the criticism sandwich. I'll do something like that. you know. then it will pop right up. that’s a good one. but if it's factual then I'll respond. man I'm sorry I had a bad day. George. next question this is the more technical question this is from John Jay—I've been testing glucose and blood pressure and it's been very frustrating. but there's this one thing. forget about YouTube.the respect that your readers have for you will go through the roof. I was just really having a bad day. Tim Ferriss: When you're very graceful and tactful—number one. I'm always trying to get better and I appreciate it.. I try to do that in my comments. B. A. Even if it's a pretty rude comment.which happens a. where they’ll say—hey. So I also have an entire post in like a 60-minute presentation on: How I Deal with Haters. Thanks for the comment.. Let's see here. and there are two things. I want to talk for a minute.. and C and D. that would be like months and months of time. and then you'd talk about the criticism and then it's like.
glucometers are very erratic. about your—I want to hear about your bar testing. Ramit. The first thing people do is they’ll say: what do you do? Okay. But then. they would be extremely helpful in my job.. I would completely omit the 97. So the best glucometer that I found that has the least variability is the WaveSense Jazz. If you're using a OneTouch. I like this question. so if it was let's say. If I were a. so I would use the WaveSense instead. Ramit Sethi: Great. Way more interest. and that’s a whole other opportunity to play with testing. he's been trying to write this story about how a teddy bear can help reduce global warming. very erratic. I'm a writer. and I'm like—your friend is a loser who is not writer. what do you write about. this one is from Amber-B. one minute later and got 101—yowsers. Can you talk a little bit more about how to use conversational texting in chat room situations? Besides using it in my personal life. you could say you write about behavioral change you could even just be crazy and say all kinds of crazy stuff. any thoughts? Tim Ferriss: [LAUGHS] Yeah. okay fine then it's 86 I would keep those values. I'll tell you about my bar testing. I always. omitting any outliers. Then I tested it on the arm. which accounts for environmental factors. But you get remarkable results with testing it. But let's just say that I had 86 – 88 – 84 – 97. you get a totally different reaction. blah-blah-blah.well. Tim Ferriss: This is the way you should answer. take in three or four finger pricks at a time. and what I would also say. and then averaging numbers. is even when I was using the WaveSense Jazzz. I mean. So if I had – my general rule was. if they were within 10 percent of each other. very typically. they can be very erratic. so if you say. way more engagement and then people say.Audio Title: 2011-02-02. you will probably have a OneTouch and they are very. you could say you write about personal finance. 20 .12:59 Private Webinar with Tim Ferriss and Ramit Sethi February 2011 | Audio Duration: 62:00 bed. Next one. This is a great one. if you bought your glucose monitor at. Ramit Sethi: So let me put it this way.. this morning it was 110. first of all you can tell these were like kind of boring question. then I would keep them. I would abandon it and get what's called a WaveSense Jazz. then people will go like—Oh. a Walgreens or something like that. my friend is a writer too. and people get very. Sadly glucose monitors have a long way to go before they are entirely reliable but I would say at the very least. if you tell people you're an author. 86 – 88 – 84. let's say. very engaged.
. So what s the question that waiters and waitresses always get—what do you recommend? Okay. the worst answer to is—oh. because you deal with all sorts of customers. There's a great study indicating if you put a smiley face. But a few things I would suggest—things that I've noticed. I think they are fantastic. maybe it will work as a guy. Terrible. terrible answer. and then just like kind of prim and proper. so I have some thoughts on this. when people would always ask. The first thing is that if you give people a strong opinion on the food. I would be surprised if you couldn’t increase your tips by 10 percent. Tim? Tim Ferriss: I happen to work in restaurants for four summers.. I would also test what you write on the receipt.the smiley face definitely works but only if you're a chick. get a winner and then take that winner and compete it against the next test. A few things I would say. the best that I've found was my favorite by far is this: 21 . [LAUGHS] Ramit Sethi: [LAUGHS] Tim Ferriss: Or if you live in San Francisco. so it's a great environment. it's like imagine you’ve at bat and you can hit 50 times or a hundred times in a night. Alright. like less eye contact or more eye contact. So if somebody asks—a few things I've tested. so a few things—I think that restaurants are fantastic places to develop your social interaction skills. What do you think. so ask yourself what are the most common questions that I get and then have two or three responses that you test on people. you could. Tim Ferriss: Yes.12:59 Private Webinar with Tim Ferriss and Ramit Sethi February 2011 | Audio Duration: 62:00 The beautiful about testing. Ramit Sethi: So if I were a waitress here's what I test. like this is when you have. or if you draw a picture of a sun you can increase your tips by 14 percent. you can't be rude to them unless you want to get no tip. You don’t have to start with 50 tests. you deal with pains-in-the-ass. that’s amazing opportunity for testing. And then you can test all kinds of other things—who do you address in the table. everything is good. generally. With 50 opportunities in one night you can walk away with 2 to 4 great insights. I would test eye contact. start with one or two.Audio Title: 2011-02-02. I would test being overly smiley and like kind of cute and flirty. And my guess would be within two weeks of rigorous testing.
That’s definitely worth trying for sure. what this one is on me. it could be more free time. there's a restaurant in New York City that I went to and their policy is. Ramit Sethi: I love that. Ramit Sethi: Love it—love it. out of your pocket. what waitress ever thinks of investing her own money. If. It's extremely effective. Ramit Sethi: That’s amazing. by the way.. what could you invest $10.for example. What are two specific daily habits that you each employ to ensure that you're maximizing productivity and doing what you love? 22 . I love that you talked about investing and you're actually putting your own money down as an investment. Try to see if you could get something more back. we shouldn’t. and this is the policy at a few very high-end restaurants. like thanks for coming in guys. here is a question from Anonymous.00 to get a free dessert. and it doesn’t have to be money. That’s the rule. let's just say it's a $100 meal. right? Tim Ferriss: Yeah. So those are just a few. and you can learn a lot by going to really high-end restaurants and just paying out the nose once to see how they do these things. you know. and if you're less three and you get that 20. it's my second choice. $3. give them a free dessert. and so as a server. but if. and say. so if you get a 20 percent tip. It's so weird because as a waitress. by the way—but like. You know what we are not going to have any dessert.Audio Title: 2011-02-02. So maybe we could ask everyone listening. that’s $20 and let's say it would cost you personally. the other – the other approach. a couple goes out to dinner and they're unsure of whether they want dessert or not. oh. But that’s exactly what you're doing. Then they bring out a dessert for free for that couple.. let's say. we will take this one and then one more. maybe we should. oh yeah. I just found when I would say: this one is amazing—and make sure it's amazing. Speaking of free time. I love both of them. whatever. Tim Ferriss: That’s a good investment of your time is giving them something free that costs you 3 bucks and then it potentially gets you an additional $10 that adds up really quickly. it could be whatever. and then this one is also great.[20 percent 55:32] a day in. You can try that. we kind of want it. and if they're like.. It could be feeling good. you could do that all day.12:59 Private Webinar with Tim Ferriss and Ramit Sethi February 2011 | Audio Duration: 62:00 My second choice which is also great is this—notice that this is different from these are my two favorites. this one is amazing.
The second habit would be—reminding myself that I have more than enough time to do everything that’s truly important. but the big things. If you let the small.12:59 Private Webinar with Tim Ferriss and Ramit Sethi February 2011 | Audio Duration: 62:00 Tim Ferriss: Two daily habits—one would be having one particular todo item that I have identified I would be happy with completing.. things are going to fall through the cracks. The second—would be having Charlie get the forum for The 4-Hour Body up and running today. So that’s the first habit. I think it's just a psychological reminder. was there a time when you were first starting out when you doubted yourself or your expertise or your products. I mean. And with. and then you just end up juggling too many balls. if you do an 80/20 Analysis. how did you find the confidence and courage to put yourself out there. Let's get right to the last question here. today. very stressed out and that stress feeds on itself. You both seem very confident. it has simply a series of small tests and small moves. and if so. going down and asking myself. which of these. Tim Ferriss: [LAUGHS] Ramit Sethi: But I'll try to tackle it. I'll give you an example. So for me. for me I'll tell you this. good things done. I usually don’t like these kinds of emotional questions. Ramit Sethi: I love that. In other words if I have ten items I could be doing as a to-do list and we always do. like finishing the column for Men's Journal would be the one item that I should fix – that I should complete today. to pursue your disproportionate results? Tim Ferriss: Hmm? What are your thoughts on that? Ramit Sethi: You know. and you end up sticking your face in email all day. that’s a column for Men's Journal. or spinning too many plates. and that’s in my power. if completed today would make me satisfied with my entire day. and having won. So just remembering that you actually do have plenty of time to do all the things that are truly important. Realizing that it should happen.you know. what is that—the rolling stone gathers no moss. in your products and in yourselves.Audio Title: 2011-02-02.. or whatever—maybe 23 . that would make me satisfied with my entire day. one is on my plate the other has to be described and delegated to someone else. and just maintain that calm to the greatest extent possible. because I have no emotions [LAUGHS]. So I think it's easy to get very. bad things happen. So those are the two. you can get the big.
It's way different. Power-lifting doesn't make a difference. and they want to know what software we use. and I'm going to give myself the opportunity to prove that I can get good at this. which by the way.Audio Title: 2011-02-02. and aim for a specific deadline which is a local competition of some type.. sitting in front of a computer. So find some type of sport. or three times a week. we both have gotten better. Tim Ferriss: Yes. but give yourself something that is traceable and will provide a constant positive. a lot of times people are looking for fixit tools and hacks. That didn’t happen because we used WordPress. Tim Ferriss: Yep. I'm going to quit and I'm not going to feel guilty at all. some sort of physical activity to really take serious—number one. it happened because we were plugging in and writing every day. 24 . Or a competition within your gym. you haven't built a house. but I'm serious. or something like that.12:59 Private Webinar with Tim Ferriss and Ramit Sethi February 2011 | Audio Duration: 62:00 that’s the wrong analogy. you can go back and look at both—Tim's first blog post and my first blog post. I think if you can do that you can often get those disproportionate results.. but positive feedback in terms of progress. But I'm going to commit for at least two months or six months. but as you continue doing one thing. it doesn’t really matter. the two areas I would focus on is number find some type of sport to train for competition in. and compare that to now. because 98 percent of the people will just give up.perhaps not always constant.if you're trying to improve your confidence overall. And I frankly think that it's not as good. So I would say then. which is to say—can I commit to doing this for six months? And if after six months I find that I'm not enjoying it or I'm not good at it. right. you learn so many insights and you can grow to another. I know that sounds very heavy-handed. so there's no tangible results from that. and I think it causes a lot of psychological malaise. I would start rock climbing in the Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu or something. it didn’t happen because we know SEO. And I think that’s what people. you finish your work. but the more difficult thing is actually to change your mindset. and nothing has changed.. when people – in a modern world. or 10-K or whatever. when I started off with my blog. you haven't built a table.. So for example. and we just got better by experience and then by also talking to other people we know who are masters at what they do. you close your laptop. I would just add to that that I think the two areas. I agree. Ramit Sethi: But of course.
practice public speaking or negotiation. Bye. thank you very much for coming on. and I would say that when those two. Most people lack confidence because they don’t have enough practice having uncomfortable conversations. many times as one of the books that I've used in my life. some type of uncomfortable speaking. as you know I've plugged it many. in combination. Tim. Ramit Sethi: I love it. but you learn to view failures as feedback as opposed to failure as some type of character-flaw. even if one of them fails. or because they haven't failed much. I want to thank you for coming. [END OF TRANSCRIPT] 25 . or whatever. Have a great day guys. Tim Ferriss: Yes. And I think that focusing on those two will be very valuable. because you're just constantly going to be getting arm-barred. Okay. and sports will cause you constantly fail. which is why I would prefer something like Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu over running.Audio Title: 2011-02-02. my pleasure. Ramit Sethi: Talk to you soon. should be very effective for building confidence.12:59 Private Webinar with Tim Ferriss and Ramit Sethi February 2011 | Audio Duration: 62:00 Number two would be—take a class in negotiation. It doesn’t have to be dangerous. Everybody—The 4-Hour Body. Tim. is his new book and 4-Hour Work Week. and get good at that.
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