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TIRES TUBES
=-=-=-=-=-=-=

-------------------

*Valve Stem Types
TR-4 - Straight metal stem (8mm dia.) IRC & Dunlop
TR-6 - Straight metal stem (8mm dia.)
TR-6 - Straight metal stem offset (8mm dia.) (OFST)
TR-13 - Straight rubber stem (11.5mm dia.)
TR-15 - Straight rubber stem (16mm dia.)
TR-15 - Straight rubber stem offset (16mm dia.) (OFST)
TR-87 - Short 90� metal stem (10mm dia.)
TR-87C - Tall 90� metal stem (10mm dia.)

---------------------
--------------------
Tires:

Radials: Hard to find in the proper load range. Yes I know that people
seem to successfully ignore the load range. I found some Avon tires
that were correct for the load. They were expensive and didn't last
long. They also didn't like inner tubes.

You must use radial tubes and even those are iffy. If your new tires
have what look like harmless paper stickers on the inside, be sure to
remove them and every trace of the glue. Otherwise the tube will fail
... guaranteed. Then, use talcum powder between the tube and the tire.

Bias ply: I like these tires better than the radials since it is easy
to get the load range, they are inexpensive, ride well, and start to
groan and slip slowly when stressed rather than break away without
warning as radials do. These are the OEM tires for our vans. My only
complaint is that some take a set when parked for a while and thump
along for a couple of miles afterward. I bought my last set, Cheng
Shin, from Premier Tire (in Denver, I think) for $32 each.

Ed Parsil from the Subaru 360 Drivers Club gave me a hint about tubes
for these tires. If you can't find the right ones, just use 10 inch
motor scooter tubes, probably 10 X 3.50. These are widely available
with right angle stems and stretch easily to fit our larger tires. I
haven't had any flats with these tubes and tires. I can't say that for
the radials.

Old Tires: I don't think that there is any issue unless they were
stored in the sun. The rubber might look a little grey, but if there
are no cracks, they should be OK.

Thanks,

------------------------------------
----------------------

Hi Dave,

Tires: 5.00-10-6PR ULT (Ultra Light Truck ?)according to the shop manual.
I have AVON 145R10 C 8 Ply VAN STEEL Europe Radial tires 82/80N 65 psi rated for
1100 pounds max load.
Coker Tire may have Michelin MX 145R10 and other manufacturers.
Mini Mania site may also have other 10 inch tires.

---------------------------------------

By Michael Radtke on Wednesday, November 29, 2000 - 08:03 pm:

Hello,

I need tires and tubes for my 1979 ElectraVan. Avon makes a 145R10C which should
do since I need a 965 lb. load capability. However, no one in the USA is willing
to import them for me.

Would some kind soul like to buy the set and put it on a British Airways direct
flight from London to Phoenix? I understand "space available" freight is quite
reasonable.

Mike Radtke Phoenix Arizona USA

michael.radtke@bull.com
------------------------------------
* To: Multiple recipients of list EV <EV@SJSUVM1.SJSU.EDU>
* Subject: ElectraVan tires
* From: Russell Levine <cowtown@JPS.NET>
* Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 16:14:23 -0700
* Reply-To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <EV@SJSUVM1.SJSU.EDU>
* Sender: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <EV@SJSUVM1.SJSU.EDU>

Fellow tire shoppers -

I went searching on the net for 5.00R10 or 145R10 tires: so far, I've found
Coker Tires has Michelin MX 145R10's for $81 (had to call them for the
price), but the Mini Mania site has 145/10's of Michelin (doesn't say if
MX) for $54.95, Dayton - $59.95, , Pirelli P3 - $64.95, Riken Road Arrow -
$72.00, Kumho - $69.95, and Camac - $69.95, as well as Bridgestone
5.20/10's for $35.00 (would these fit the same wheel? - looks like lots of
clearance in my wheel-wells). I have an e-mail to them to see if they have
treadwear/heat/traction ratings for any of them. I'll keep you informed
(or, if you know the ratings, please tell me).

Russell L
ElectraVan tires

-------------------------------------
From: Russell Levine <cowtown@JPS.NET>
Subject: 145/10 Follow-up
Comments: To: ElectraVan List <ev600-l@tcu.edu>, EV List <ev@sjsuvm1.sjsu.edu>
I called Mini-Mania (turns out they're about a hour's drive away), and right now
they have, in stock, only the Camac brand tires in the 145SR10 size, plus a few
other brands in 165SR10. They buy the tire direct from England, and have different
brands available at different times. If you need an odd size (e.g.-a car that is
still being sold or driven in England!), you might want to check their site
(http://www.minimania.com/) or e-mail them for availability. Russell L

>----------------------------------------------------

Subject: Tires for the Electravan
Comments: To: ev600-l@TCU.EDU, Olof Sundin? <evsnw@seamac.wa.com>,
Eric Swenson <eswenson@on-ramp.ior.com>,
Jerry STUBBS <stubbs@EECS.UKANS.EDU>,
Wayne Helfrich <wayneh@intouch.bc.ca>,
Bruce Meland <etimes@TELEPORT.COM>,
Bill Glickman <billglic@JUNO.COM>,
Jon Eidson <eidson@UNIX4.IS.TCU.EDU>,
Mike Chancey <evtinker@JUNO.COM>, Eddie Sheldrake <Pollys1@KOAN.COM>,
Russell Levine <cowtown@JPS.NET>,
Mike Russcher <sportscar@3-CITIES.COM>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

A friend of mine just located this source of Austin mini tires. Some OK prices for
10" radials... www.interlog.com/~gkorz/ttaustinmini.html Robb Zuk

5 flavours of Radials, Can$60-138 each (approx. US$40-92 each)
Prices are F.O.B. Montreal, Canada.
(they ship throughout North and South America)

email: talontire@videotron.ca
Phone: (514)-337-0833
Fax: (514)-337-8857

--------------------------------------------------------------------

> Mike when I got the bus several years ago it needed tires bad. I got
Michelin tires locally for $100.00 each! These only lasted 6000 klm.
Next I got Falken SN807 from Talon Tire.( http://www.talontire.com/ )
$42.00 each. These seem much better. Ride , handling , and quite. I
run the tires at max pressure. These are 44 psi. The Dunlops are 220
ah. I am working on a deal to get a 120 volt set of nicads. If this
dose not play out I will get a set of GC4 Exides. Rob.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello,

Many of you responded about my tire search for my ElectraVan. Thanks for
that and thanks for the general discussion as well. However, I still
haven't sorted it all out and would welcome any additional advice. Here
are some points:

1) I cannot easily change rims to a more available tire size since
these split rims bolt to the edges of the brake drum and have
zero offset.
2) My current bias ply tires get hot at the owner's manual
recommended pressure of 45 psi. The front: only the tread gets
hot; the rear: both the tread and sidewalls get hot.

3) My current tires are 20 years old. I swapped them around and
included the spare which has none of the checking and cracking
that the other tires do. All the tires still get hot in the
same way as in #2.

4) I compared the rolling distance with my VW Vanagon. Starting at
the same speed, the Vanagon rolled twice the distance that the
ElectraVan rolled.

5) I put 50 psi in the tires. They now run warm rather than hot,
but still have the same heating pattern mentioned in #2. I
haven't measured the rolling distance, but I would guess that
it is now about 2/3 of the Vanagon's.

I have searched around and this is my pick of tires:

a) I could use 145R10 passenger tires rated at about 750 lbs.
capacity. I should have 965 lbs. according to the door sticker.
These tires are cheap. Most folks driving ElectraVans seem to
use these tires without incident. Kumho and Falken are typical
brands. (Michelin/Riken makes a similar rated tire at a much
higher price.)

b) I could use 5.00X10 bias ply tires from Cheng Shin. These carry
960 lbs. at 50 psi and are most like the originals. They are
about $50 each.

c) I could use 145R10C Avon "Europe Van" tires. These support 990
lbs. at 65 psi. These are about $100 each after shipping from
the UK, assuming that I can get them by US customs lacking DOT
approval.

I have read on this list that inflating tires over the sidewall pressure is
OK for EV's because of lower top speed; 50 mph in my case. If this gives
an increase in load capacity, then #a might be a good choice because it
offers low rolling resistance and no ElectraVan owners have reported their
tires popping.

I am afraid that going with #b will still make for high rolling resistance
and hot tires. But maybe my current tires get hot because they are 20
years old.

#c seems to be the best choice, but my $400 worth of tyres may get
confiscated by US customs. I have determined that if this happens that it
will be entirely my problem.

Your thoughts please.

Thanks,
Mike Phoenix AZ USA

---------------------------------------------
>Mike I do not think your rolling test between the VW and the Jet Bus has
any meaning. There are too many variables. Brake drag , wheel bearing
grease , wheel seal age and condition, drag in the trans., wheel alinement,
size of tire, just to name a few. A more accurate test would be to
measurer the Jet Bus power consumption per mile with different tires. All
other parameters would need to be the same. Weather, load, speed, etc.
I also think you are looking for a tire with too high a load capacity.
The Jet weighs 2690 lbs. Divided by 4 is 672.50 plus driver ( in my case
130 lbs ) is total 705 lbs per tire. I know this leave little for cargo
but how much do you need to carry? I have driven my Jet bus about 20,000
klm on Michelin and Falken tires without a problem. ( I like the Falken
tire much better ) You are over concerned about the tire temp. Mine run
about 165 degrees an a hot day after a hard run. Hope this helps. Rob.

--

From: "Michael A. Radtke" <m.radtke@ELM.AZ05.BULL.COM>
Subject: Re: More: Rolling Resistance
Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <EV600-L@TCU.EDU>

Rob, I am getting the weight requirement off of the door sticker. 6 ply bias ply
tires similar to the original have a 960 lb. rating, so I think that I am on
track. At 45 psi. on my original tires, I get home with about 30% charge left
after my commute. With 50 psi, I get home with 50% charge left. I ordered the Avon
145R10C tires yesterday. I'll post again when I get some experience with them.
Thanks for your comments. Mike
>
----------------------------------------------------

>Is the camber causing tire wear?
> Yes! I only get 4000 klm on rear tires. Only toe is adjustable
on the rear. The manual calls for +1 to 3 degrees camber. My camber
gauge reads to 6 degrees and I am off the scale I bought a set of rear
control arms but they did not help. I am having some angle shims made to
install between the rear axial housing and the control arms. This should
fix the problem. Rob.
>
>
>----------
>From: Mike Radtke[SMTP:michael.radtke@bull.com]
>Sent: Monday, January 29, 2001 7:12 AM
>Subject: [Fwd: Re: My Avon Tyres]
>
>
>
>-------- Original Message --------
>Subject: Re: My Avon Tyres
>Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 19:11:37 -0500
>From: Rob Vasichek <oleoranch@AAAHAWK.COM>
>Reply-To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <EV600-L@TCU.EDU>
>To: EV600-L@TCU.EDU
>
> William how many kilometers do you have on the Avon tires? Also
>dose anyone have a problem with excessive camber on the rear wheels?
>Rob.
>
>
>
>__snip
--
Sender: Jet Electravan EV600 Owners List <EV600-L@listserv.tcu.edu>
From: "Michael A. Radtke" <m.radtke@ELM.AZ05.BULL.COM>
Subject: Camber (was: My Avon Tyres]
Comments: To: "EV600-L@TCU.EDU" <EV600-L@TCU.EDU>

Rob, In the process of replacing my tires, I aligned the front end and set the
ride height (posture). I found the car quite low and after I set the new height,
it looks like the rear has excessive camber. However, the height is in spec now.
(I found the 145R10's 1/2 inch lower than the 500X10's, so I reduced the target
posture heights by 1/2). I expect that the rear camber is supposed to be that way
since I don't think that its adjustable. Is the camber causing tire wear? Mike
---------- From: Mike Radtke[SMTP:michael.radtke@bull.com] Sent: Monday, January
29, 2001 7:12 AM Subject: [Fwd: Re: My Avon Tyres] -------- Original Message
-------- Subject: Re: My Avon Tyres Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 19:11:37 -0500 From:
Rob Vasichek <oleoranch@AAAHAWK.COM> Reply-To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600
Owners List <EV600-L@TCU.EDU> To: EV600-L@TCU.EDU William how many kilometers do
you have on the Avon tires? Also dose anyone have a problem with excessive camber
on the rear wheels? Rob. __snip

-------------------------------------------------

Sender: Jet Electravan EV600 Owners List <EV600-L@listserv.tcu.edu>
From: "Michael A. Radtke" <m.radtke@ELM.AZ05.BULL.COM>
Subject: My Avon Tyres
Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <EV600-L@TCU.EDU>

Well, My Avon tyres arrived and I've been driving on them for about 3 weeks now. I
have some observations to share. 1) These tyres are rated at 65 psi. However, with
the wheels off the car, the rims start to bend at about 50 psi. At 65 psi, I don't
believe that there is a personal hazard, but it is easy to visualize the tube
squirting down the crack in the rim and blowing out. When the wheels are mounted
on the car there is no problem since the rims have 4 additional bolts clamping
them together. 2) I have tried driving the car at 65 psi and 55 psi. I cannot
sense any difference in tire temperature, but the 55 psi seems to have _less_
rolling resistance than the 65 psi. At either pressure, I get at least a 5%
increase in range over the bias ply tires that I replaced. 3) $400 for tires,
tubes and shipping is no bargain. I still wish that I could get a tire engineer's
advice on overrating the Kumho 145R10 for use at speeds less than 50 mph. I know
that at least one of the list members has done this without incident. Thanks Rob &
Bill for your help and advice. Mike Phoenix, AZ
---

Robb,

Those liners are called flaps and their express purpose is to prevent
chafing caused by rust.

I labored over whether I should install them or not. In the end, I didn't
since I couldn't find any ready made ones for 10 inch rims and my car had
original tires which had never been removed from the rims and didn't have
them. I did shine up and paint the rims so their surfaces are smooth and
in Phoenix they are not likely to rust.

Mike

----------
From: Mike Radtke[SMTP:michael.radtke@bull.com]
Sent: Monday, January 29, 2001 7:13 AM
Subject: [Fwd: Re: My Avon Tyres]

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: My Avon Tyres
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2001 09:18:53 -0800
From: Robb Zuk <robb@ISLANDNET.COM>
Reply-To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <EV600-L@TCU.EDU>
To: EV600-L@TCU.EDU
References: <20010126.203827.-83243.0.billglic@juno.com>

I had one tube fail due to "squirting down the crack"

__snip

-------------------
From: william glickman <billglic@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: My Avon Tyres
Comments: To: EV600-L@TCU.EDU
Content-type: text/plain

READ THE MANUAL ! Never remove a wheel from the ElectraVan before deflating the
tire to below atleast 20 psi or it just might blow up in your FACE! I keep 65 psi
in my AVON Tires and even once had 100 psi in one by mistake, but I would not try
that again on your life or anyone elses. My tire gage was bent in the middle and I
only survived because I usually check pressure with atleast two different gages
when I feel that it is taking tooooo long to fill the tire. Be VERY careful.

----------------------
From: william glickman <billglic@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: My Avon Tyres
Comments: To: EV600-L@TCU.EDU
Content-type: text/plain

I have over 5000 miles on my Avon Tires before one exploded when overheated from
the grinding of the hardened steel stubshaft inside the soft cast iron drum. I
replaced the blown tire with my spare, but have not yet purchased a replacement
spare because I have been using my other EV, an electrified 69 VW Bug. No problems
noticed with excessive camber on rear wheels, but I have noticed excessive side
wear on the front tires. I guess I need to rotate the tires more often. On Fri, 26
Jan 2001 19:11:37 -0500 Rob Vasichek <oleoranch@AAAHAWK.COM> writes:

------------------------

Subject: Re: My Avon Tyres
Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <EV600-L@TCU.EDU>
In-Reply-To: <20010126.203827.-83243.0.billglic@juno.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

I had one tube fail due to "squirting down the crack" when I removed the wheel
before lowering the pressure (Thanks for the RTFM warning Bill -- Important
point). I also noticed a lot of rust flakes and general crud collection along that
crack and grinding into the tube. My solution was to install a liner --
essentially a big rubber band that fits in the rim and covers the crack before the
tube goes in. I made my liners from 4" wide rubber cut from old tubes. Bicycle
tires have the same thing, used to protect the tube from the spoke ends. Robb 3
Electravans on Salt Spring Island Mike wrote: >At 65 psi, I >don't believe that
there is a personal hazard, but it is easy >to visualize the tube squirting down
the crack in the rim and >blowing out.

Back to: Top of message | Previous page | Main EV600-L page

--------------------------
Comments: To: "EV600-L@TCU.EDU" <EV600-L@TCU.EDU>

Hi Bill, etc. Please don't yell at me about not reading the manual. What makes you
think that I even have a manual? Well, actually, I do. To the best of my
knowledge, my owner's manual does not say anything about a maximum pressure for
removing a wheel. I just re-checked. My manual has no date. It is about 14X22 mm
with a red cover. Owner's manual, Electra Van, and Model 600 appear on the front,
the Jet Industries address on the back. I do thank you for the heads up though and
I will follow your advice about the 20 psi maximum wheel removal pressure. Thanks,
Mike ----------

====================

-----------------------------------------------------
"The Rim/Tread width relationship is more complex than that. For a start the
quoted width is the nominal tyre width, which can differ from the tread
width by quite a bit, usually the tread width is narrower than the tyre
width. Consider that 145mm is much wider than the 3.5" (approx 89mm), and
yet the ideal rim size for a 145R10 tyre is a 3.5B10.

Any tyre is designed to fit a particular ideal rim size, with a range of
permitted rims thrown in. The only way to know for sure is to check out the
manufacturer's specs. Some manufacturers/importers are really cagey and will
only advise a single rim size, other's are not so bothered and quote
permitted rim sizes. There are others who are so touchy about this that they
will only quote for a given completely standard car."
---
Coker Tire: The Number One outfit for all vintage automobile tires. They even have
new tires for your family armored personnel carrier! Check out their Web site at
Coker.com or call at (800) 251-6336 for questions or orders. The tires they offer
for the Isetta are the BF Goodrich Silvertown blackwall and whitewalls, size 4.80
x 10. We got our Michelin MX 145R10 radial blackwalls there but Coker has been out
of stock for sometime and, at last report, didn't expect to see any more of them.
Might not hurt to periodically check if you're wanting to go the radial route. If
you're running split rims, they have those bent stem tubes for you too. Just ask
for part number TR-87 and you're set. These are truly great people to deal with
and they know their stuff! The guy that took our tire order even knew what an
Isetta was!

===================================================================
TIRE SUMMARY

5.00R10 or 145R10 (I believe same as 145/80-10) or 5.00X10 tires
Currently on car - mismatched set:

MARSHALL 772 on two front wheels (apparently same as KUMHO 772)
PIRELLI cinturato P3 on pass.side rear (very little tread left)
NANKAN 5.00 - 10 Nylon (bias ply?) on dr.side rear (almost bald)
MICHELIN XZX on spare wheel (sidewall looks damaged)

Avon makes a 145R10C

Coker Tires has Michelin MX 145R10

Mini Mania site has 145/10's of Michelin,Dayton - $59.95, , Pirelli P3 - $64.95,
Riken Road Arrow -
$72.00, Kumho - $69.95, and Camac - $69.95, as well as Bridgestone 5.20/10

Austin mini tires. Some OK prices for 10" radials...
www.interlog.com/~gkorz/ttaustinmini.html

5 flavours of Radials, Can$60-138 each (approx. US$40-92 each)
Prices are F.O.B. Montreal, Canada.
(they ship throughout North and South America)
email: talontire@videotron.ca
Phone: (514)-337-0833
Fax: (514)-337-8857
----------------------------------------
dave's research:
----------------------------------------
Rim is 10" - Width 3.5"

Falken SN807 from Talon Tire.( http://www.talontire.com/ )
Search results - 2 entries found for All Season tires and size 145/80-10.

(* US prices based on current exchange rate (1.19)
Prices indicated in blue are currently on special!
Brand Model Speed Rating Price (CDN) Price (USD)*
Falken SN807 S $66.00 $55.00 load index 69s
Kumho 758 T $61.00 $51.00) (load index 69t 716 lbs)

Michelin Radial:
145R10 here: http://www.antiquetyres.com.au/michelin.html (australian)

TireRack
Kumho 756 145/R10
68T SL
load 694 lbs.
32 psi
9/32"
rim width range 3.5-5"
rim width 4"
sect width 5.8"
NA
diam. 19.4"
NA

TireRack also has 165/70hr10 Yokohama A008 (ultra hi-performance-summer
the a32r looks like an all-weather, but tirerack doesn't have)
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/Sizes.jsp?make=Yokohama&model=A008
165/70HR10 $66 (low stock)
72H SL
load 783 lbs.
44 psi
9/32"
rim width range 4.5-5.5" (no - I have a 3.5" rim)
rim width 4.5"
sect width 6.7"
4.8"
diam. 19.3"
revs per mile 1074

Minimania has the Yoko A008 as well for $99:
http://www.minimania.com/web/like/y/item/A008/invDetail.cfm

Tubes? here:
http://21st-century-tires.com/tubes/radialcartubes.html
http://www.xtire.com/tubes/radialcartubes.html
http://www.tirexusa.com/tubes/tubes.html
http://www.everthrough.com/pd1.htm

This one looks close:
http://www.jcwhitney.com/autoparts/ProductDisplay/c-10101/s-10101/p-
209092/mediaCode-ZX/appId-504508

This looks like the one!!!
http://1stoptires.com/product_info.php?cPath=34&products_id=109
RADIAL ER-10(145R-10) TR-13 $13.99

Also http://www.tireco.com/Product_Detail.asp?CateID=19&LineID=14&ProductID=268
but appears to be distributor, with box of 10 (no price)
ER-10 (145R-10) TR-13 quantity 10 stock# 40-245

Tubes at ACE hardware:
http://www.acehardware.com/family/index.jsp?categoryId=1260423
here's for a 10" tire, the "gleason knobby tire"
http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1399735&cp=1260423&page=2&d
oVSearch=no&pageBucket=0&parentPage=family

Harbor Freight Tools has one too. (Not for road use, they say.)

or call the guy here:
http://www.kenjones.com/index.asp?pgid=31

--
Q) How do I select the inner tube tire I need?

The best way is to look at the tire itself. The markings will be the same
(usually) as the inner tube required. For example:

Tire is marked 3.00 x 4
Therefore, the inner tube required is a 300 x 4.
The decimal is irrelevant.

Q) What do the numbers mean?

A tire marked 280/250 x 4 would be:
Max width of 2.8 inches
Minimum width of 2.5 inches
Fits on a 4" rim

or a-bxc
a=diameter of whole tire
b=rim width
c=rim size (diameter)

-----------------------------------------------------------
I have searched around and this is my pick of tires:
a) I could use 145R10 passenger tires rated at about 750 lbs.
capacity. I should have 965 lbs. according to the door sticker.
These tires are cheap. Most folks driving ElectraVans seem to
use these tires without incident. Kumho and Falken are typical
brands. (Michelin/Riken makes a similar rated tire at a much
higher price.)
b) I could use 5.00X10 bias ply tires from Cheng Shin. These carry
960 lbs. at 50 psi and are most like the originals. They are
about $50 each.
c) I could use 145R10C Avon "Europe Van" tires. These support 990
lbs. at 65 psi. These are about $100 each after shipping from
the UK, assuming that I can get them by US customs lacking DOT
approval.
I have read on this list that inflating tires over the sidewall pressure is
OK for EV's because of lower top speed; 50 mph in my case. If this gives
an increase in load capacity, then #a might be a good choice because it
offers low rolling resistance and no ElectraVan owners have reported their
tires popping.
I am afraid that going with #b will still make for high rolling resistance
and hot tires. But maybe my current tires get hot because they are 20
years old.
#c seems to be the best choice, but my $400 worth of tyres may get
confiscated by US customs. I have determined that if this happens that it
will be entirely my problem.
-
Hi All
Do not use Bias ply Tires , performance is horrible.
Find a Truck & Industrial Tire supplier and order Radial tires and
tubes.
The last tires I got were Riken Road Arrow 145/80R10 68s - RRA-1450
Tubeless Steel-Belted & Tubes
George Allen
Redding,CA
-
I have driven my Jet bus about 20,000
klm on Michelin and Falken tires without a problem. ( I like the Falken
tire much better ) You are over concerned about the tire temp. Mine run
about 165 degrees an a hot day after a hard run.
-
Rob, I am getting the weight requirement off of the door sticker. 6 ply bias ply
tires similar to the original have a 960 lb. rating, so I think that I am on
track. At 45 psi. on my original tires, I get home with about 30% charge left
after my commute. With 50 psi, I get home with 50% charge left. I ordered the Avon
145R10C tires yesterday.
-
My Avon tyres arrived and I've been driving on them for about 3 weeks now. I have
some observations to share. 1) These tyres are rated at 65 psi. However, with the
wheels off the car, the rims start to bend at about 50 psi. At 65 psi, I don't
believe that there is a personal hazard, but it is easy to visualize the tube
squirting down the crack in the rim and blowing out. When the wheels are mounted
on the car there is no problem since the rims have 4 additional bolts clamping
them together. 2) I have tried driving the car at 65 psi and 55 psi. I cannot
sense any difference in tire temperature, but the 55 psi seems to have _less_
rolling resistance than the 65 psi. At either pressure, I get at least a 5%
increase in range over the bias ply tires that I replaced. 3) $400 for tires,
tubes and shipping is no bargain. I still wish that I could get a tire engineer's
advice on overrating the Kumho 145R10 for use at speeds less than 50 mph. I know
that at least one of the list members has done this without incident.
-
READ THE MANUAL ! Never remove a wheel from the ElectraVan before deflating the
tire to below atleast 20 psi or it just might blow up in your FACE! I keep 65 psi
in my AVON Tires and even once had 100 psi in one by mistake, but I would not try
that again on your life or anyone elses. My tire gage was bent in the middle and I
only survived because I usually check pressure with atleast two different gages
when I feel that it is taking tooooo long to fill the tire. Be VERY careful.
-
I have over 5000 miles on my Avon Tires before one exploded when overheated from
the grinding of the hardened steel stubshaft inside the soft cast iron drum. I
replaced the blown tire with my spare.
-
I had one tube fail due to "squirting down the crack" when I removed the wheel
before lowering the pressure (Thanks for the RTFM warning Bill -- Important
point). I also noticed a lot of rust flakes and general crud collection along that
crack and grinding into the tube. My solution was to install a liner --
essentially a big rubber band that fits in the rim and covers the crack before the
tube goes in. I made my liners from 4" wide rubber cut from old tubes. Bicycle
tires have the same thing, used to protect the tube from the spoke ends.
-
I have a 1979 Jet Industries ElectraVan 600 with 145RC10 Avon steel
belted radial tires that are rated for 1100 pounds at 65 psi.
I can move the van by just leaning on it when the transmission is in
-
By Michael Radtke on Wednesday, November 29, 2000 - 08:03 pm:

Hello,

I need tires and tubes for my 1979 ElectraVan. Avon makes a 145R10C which should
do since I need a 965 lb. load capability. However, no one in the USA is willing
to import them for me.

Would some kind soul like to buy the set and put it on a British Airways direct
flight from London to Phoenix? I understand "space available" freight is quite
reasonable.

Mike Radtke Phoenix Arizona USA

michael.radtke@bull.com
-
neutral.
--

I haven't had too much trouble locating 10" tires for about $25 by just
calling around the local tire stores (they usually have to special order,
though.) There is a caveat you need to be aware of in relation to tires and
Subaru 360's though: The only 10" tires that I've been able to find on the
regular market (i.e. tire stores) are 145's. The 360 was designed 130's (or
4.80's.) 145's don't fit in the spare tire spot but work fine on the
wheels. Your best bet may be to get 4 145's from whereever and 1 4.80 from
Coker so you have something that will go into the spare tire spot.

-- Rich Fife --
--

thw...@home2.mysolution.com wrote:

> Where are you guys getting your little 10" tires
> that the micro cars need?

I got my 4.80x10" bias-ply tires from COKER Tire . They are about $60 ea.

www.coker.com (or have them send you a catalog)

look for BF GOODRICH SILVERTOWN brand at their website (not the radials)

These are the only NEW 10" bias-ply tires that I know of.

There are 145R10 radials that are made by... Pirelli (P3's I believe), but
I don't have a source for them. I just heard that someone bought a set
for $32 ea from a local shop in Denver CO.

When looking for the smaller size radial tire, try a trailer shop, they
use smaller size tires, you may find the 10" radials there.
--
David Turnedge May 31 1999, 12:00 am show options
Newsgroups: alt.autos.mini
From: David Turnedge <turne...@screentime.com.au> - Find messages by this author
Date: 1999/05/31
Subject: Speedo Settings
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Oh dear, I just read someone else's message re tyre choice
and speedo accuracy. It's something I hadn't considered!

I have a 1963 Mini 850 with 10 inch wheels currently fitted
with very bad Bridgestone 145/60 retreads (don't blame me,
they were on the car when I bought it).

I plan to put Yokohama A008 175/70/10 tyres on the existing
wheels - will this throw the speedo out?

Are 145/60 tyres the original tyre spec?

Will I get booked speeding tomorrow (in an 850, unlikely,
but you never know...)?

David.
--
> I plan to put Yokohama A008 175/70/10 tyres on the existing
> wheels - will this throw the speedo out?
165/70/10 :)
Nope, the overall diameter is the same, so no prob!
--

LOL! It can be done, oh yes, it can be done!
:)
Matt
--

Paul Diggins Jun 5 2000, 12:00 am show options
Newsgroups: alt.autos.mini
From: "Paul Diggins" <pdigg...@concentric.net> - Find messages by this author
Date: 2000/06/05
Subject: Re: MINI MOKE TIRES 5.10x10 M&S Tires
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Richard:
This one is getting a little more difficult .. I was surprized ... this
having been said, try Coker tires at http://www.coker.com/Products.asp .
This page should provide you with selection of Brands and Preoducts - click
on the Michelin link and you will see 145R10 Michelin MX radials available
at $82.00 each. Other contact info for Coker and for this tire:
MICHELIN MX BLACKWALL
Cross Section: 6.30
Overall Diameter: 19.70Tubes Available for this tire
Tube 1 = 13090R10 MICH RADIAL TR-13
Vintage Tire Hotline
1-800-251-6336
M-F 8 a.m.-7 p.m. EST
Sat. 8 a.m.-Noon EST
Local & Int'l (423) 265-6368
Fax (423) 756-5607
1317 Chestnut Street
Chattanooga, TN 37402
--

As stated in a post above - I changed a tyre from one wheel to another

using tyre levers (that came in a Lada tool-kit!!!!). The main problem

was initially getting the bead of the tyre down into the well. I did
that by fully deflating the tyre and then carefully driving over the
side-wall of the tyre whilst the wheel was lying flat. The weight of the
car pushed the bead out of its' seat. Once that had been done, actually
getting the tyre off the wheel was very easy. Getting the tyre onto the
new wheel was also easy and by 'bouncing' the tyre once it was on the
new wheel, it seated sufficiently well to allow me to inflate it using a
foot pump.

Kev
--

not sure how to say this really

do any of you have any idea of how dangerous inflating tyres is?
have any of you read the sidewalls?
why are all tyre fitters trained?

do you know why you should listen to the tyre as it inflates?

have you ever seen what happens to a wheel/tyre assembly when the tyre
fails?
and how far it travels even when only inflated to 25/30 Psi.

take your tyres to reasonable independant garage who will normally only
charge valve and balance often less than 25 quid for a set of 4 wheels.

have a care
have fun

ps not trying to be patronising but have seen many really nasty accidents
involving tyres and heard of many more, yes i am in the trade

Reply
--

> do you know why you should listen to the tyre as it inflates?

Yes - it 'pops' as the bead seats.

> have you ever seen what happens to a wheel/tyre assembly when the tyre
> fails?

--

> and how far it travels even when only inflated to 25/30 Psi.

No, please tell us. Of course you should inflate your tyres inside a
cage - but I've yet to see a 'professional' fitter use one.
--
Sigurd Mar 18 2002, 6:40 am show options
Newsgroups: alt.autos.antique
From: "Sigurd" <strawberryn...@gmx.de> - Find messages by this author
Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2002 15:41:23 +0100
Local: Mon, Mar 18 2002 6:41 am
Subject: Tires for oldtimers
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Hi NG,

I've found a distributor for tires and rims for oldtimers. They have the
145R10 in M+S and a lot of other.
You can find them here: http://www.classictyres.de

--

Tony Maris Aug 23 2002, 1:08 pm show options
Newsgroups: uk.rec.caravanning
From: "Tony Maris" <anthony.ma...@which.net> - Find messages by this author
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 21:10:55 +0100
Local: Fri, Aug 23 2002 1:10 pm
Subject: Re: Tyre Question
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Under no circumstances should you mix cross-plies and radials on the same
axle. The characteristics are entirely different and it is potentially very
dangerous, not to mention illegal.

The capacity of standard 145R10's is very similar to 520.10 4 plies, as is
the pressure, so you can use either but not both!

Regards

Tony

--
Tony M <anthony.ma...@which.net> http://www.towitall.co.uk
Towbars & Trailers QSA accredited for Towbars and Trailers.
Chesterfield Accreditation no. 001.

--
Tubeless versus Tubes, the whole story, and then some

54- section6.htm

This article will deal, in much more depth, information about using tubes, or not,
and the types of rims, etc., than in various other places on this website.

This business about tubeless tires, tubes, etc., is confusing to many folks.

1. Except for airheads that came from the factory with tubeless tires, most all
others came from the BMW factory with tubes and the rims have WM-2 shapes. That
is a particular shape of primarily the inside of the rim. The WM2 shape does not
have the 5 degree angle increase of the tubeless rims...on the bottom area and
side area...that the tire bead rests against. This WM2 shape in general has a
contour in the middle and angles outward from the middle, and where the tire bead
contacts, that is FOR USE WITH TUBES. Some BMW rims are also 'safety
rims'...which help to keep the tire onto the rim, and NOT towards the interior.
The other commonly used rim shape for use WITH TUBES is the CP contour...which was
also used in some later BMW models...and also is FOR USE WITH TUBES. This shape
has a more pronounced drop center, and the horizontal part that the bead ending
fits has a 4 degree slope. That is OPPOSITE the TUBELESS rim shape!!
2. BOTH the CP and the WM are for use WITH tubes.
3. While the rims CP and WM are for use WITH tubes, they ARE OK to be used with
most tires that are marked TUBELESS.
Those tires have a bead, etc., that IS compatible with those CP and WM rims. That
does NOT mean it is OK to run tubeless marked tires on these rims withOUT tubes.
MANY DO and HAVE, safely. YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN if you do.
4. There are other rim shapes, such as MT and MTH2, suitable for tubes or not
tubes. These types of rim shapes WERE used on some Airheads: R80GS (NOT G/S);
R80R; R100R. The R80GS has had both these types depending on the year. The R80
and R80RT from 1985 (yep, the year BMW went to the 'not serviceable except to
replace them' type of front wheel bearings); late R65, R100RS and R100RT...all
phased in in 1986 and 1987..all had the MT-2 version of these rims. As you all
probably know, these wire-spoke wheels had a new, clever, BMW design in how the
spokes were fitted, so that the spokes were OUTside the air cavity.

The MT and MTH2 rims are different. The part meeting the sidewall of the bead is
pretty much the same (in fact the part of ALL the rims mentioned in this posting
are pretty much the same where they meet the side of the bead, except that
angle).... BUT, on the MT, which is specifically designed to allow the use of
tubeless tires without tubes (but CAN be used with tubes), the horizontal part of
the rim is 5 degrees UPward, tending to hold the tubeless tire onto the rim. The
MTH2 not only has that 5 degrees, but there is a BUMP in the rim shape, upwards,
that is inwards, just before the drop center area. THAT tends to keep the tire
bead from dropping into the center of the rim. That bump has TWO functions, one
is to help in putting air into the tire, and the other is to help DEcrease very
fast air dropping upon a serious bump, or whatever. The WM2 does not have that 5
degree change.

OK...now that you have plowed through and read all that, here is the bottom line,
plus touching on things NOT talked about above. AGAIN, I caution you that this is
MY interpretation of things:

1. You are SUPPOSED to use tubes on the airheads that came with tubes. If you
use a tubeless tire, and add a tube, you should REDUCE the speed rating by one
step. NEVER fail to use tire talc when installing a tube....rub it all over the
tube and inside of the tire.
2. Almost all tires marked tubeless, are OK for use WITH tubes. SERIOUS
exceptions MAY exist in trying to use RADIAL tires. You generally will not find
radials that fit your Airhead anyway.
3. Tires marked Tubeless are specially made to ensure they hold air. Tires not
so marked will often loose air, as they are porous....one area or another. It is
UNclear if many tube only tires really can be used long term and not loose air.
3. Use of tires marked tubeless, WITH tubes, reduces its speed rating, by ONE
category. When installing a tube, do NOT leave the mounting nut against the rim.
You could have the tube fail to release air from between the tube and inside of
the tire....which it is SUPPOSED to do, normally, in use...and the tube will
chaff, and fail early. Run the nut up against the cap, or throw it away, or put
it in your tool tray....it is part of the tubes you purchase strictly to HELP in
installing the tube.
4. Use of tubes causes the tire to heat up more, reducing tread life, and that is
ONE of the reasons for the speed rating change.
5. The SAFEST thing to do, considering big bumps/potholes/objects in the road, is
to use the wheel as BMW intended. Because of the mixture of wheels BMW has used,
and the way wheels bend (or crack!) in serious 'hits', no hard and fast rules that
fit all situations are possible. If you are willing to understand, AMONGST OTHER
THINGS, that a fast air release is possible on a flat occurring ...or upon a rim
bending bump or chuckhole, and don't mind that...then, it is your choice, with
that knowledge...to not use a tube.
6. It IS possible for the snowflakes to be converted to use tubeless marked tires
withOUT using tubes. Some few snowflakes are porous, but that is fairly rare,
most will hold air just fine. ONE method involves enlarging the stem hole, and
possibly spot facing the inside of the rim slightly. That allows small tire
rubber tubeless stems to be fitted. This has been done many times, without any
known...to ME...problems. However, this is NOT as safe as using tubes. That
does NOT mean it is totally UNsafe. Folks have done considerable racing with
tubeless converted snowflakes. see #7 just below.

7. One of the little known facts is that as tires rotate at high speed, the
forces tend to OPEN the valve stem core, and valve stem cores are manufactured
short, long, and short with a red band. The red band valve core is designed to
not have this high speed problem. It occurs at speeds for that well above what
you can attain on a stock airhead. HOWEVER, there have been instances of weak
valve stem core units that leaked air. A short valve core, and a sealing cap, is
usually just fine for us. The long core, and no cap, is not a great idea...you
MAY loose air very slowly. ALWAYS use a CAP on the stem...one that SEALS.
NOTE: BMW sells a special METAL valve stem, that comes with nut, metal cap, AND
A STEM RUBBER O-RING, under part number 36-32-1-452-748, about $4.. This will fit
in the snowflake hole...but you will want to be sure the inside area is worked
over a bit to ensure a very positive air sealing. This is a VERY nice way to do
the conversion to tubeless. That chromed steel valve assembly is available
elsewhere's, at about half price.

It is, bottom line, YOUR choice. Snowflake rims used as tubeless may release
air, or the side of the tire, depending on circumstances, such as puncture, or
huge pothole and bent rim.....unpleasantly. Some rims are slightly porous. Then,
again, air is released fairly fast on tubed snowflakes (unless the stem is sealed
with rubber pieces....and a nut and washer....another story in itself)....and
there is a possibility of tire rotation on the rim possibly ripping the tube to
pieces....(see #9 below). The convenience of a roadside repair may convince some
to go to a tubeless conversion. It is a mixed bag.

Snowbum has never converted his snowflake rims....but, to be honest...Snowbum MAY
convert his sidecar tug's snowflakes...he is being wishy-washy about it right
now....and is not even sure if he might not also do his solo RT that way too.
There is NO question that the snowflake wheels shape allows them to handle major
rim denting and still hold air, if tubes are installed as they were designed to
be.

NOTE!....when a snowflake (or other wheel, WM or CP) is used withOUT a tube, you
MIGHT have problems trying to get it to hold air during a tire change....if the
tire bead does not stay in full, all-around, contact with the rim, in the instance
of a flat tire. That is why tire folks use a BAND (or rope!) around the rim of
the tire, to squeeze the tire to the sidewall....and one goodly reason I don't
even consider carrying those high pressure steel CO2 mini-bottles that are in some
tire repair kits. I prefer a piston-cylinder operated, or battery operated
pump....UNlimited air!...you can grab the tire or use a rope on it...and get it
inflated.

Sidecar folks sometimes use rear tires on the front of the tug, with the
directional arrow, if present, reversed. This is acceptable practice.

8. It is possible to seal the tube stem via rubber washers and exterior nut to
the rim to hold air better, if the tire/tube is punctured. But, that must be
offset with the knowledge that if the tire rotates any on the rim, it will rip the
stem out of the tube.

9. The tube nut is for installing the tube, then to be NOT used (see #8
though)....or to be up against the valve CAP, NOT the rim.

As you can see, it is a mixed bag.
------------------

More Tire Tips

Baby powder is not just for a baby's [or bicyclist's] bottom

By Mike Munk, LAB, EC Instructor

July 2000 Wheel Issues
In a recent past article I listed 11 tips on how to avoid flats I was reviewing
that article last week when I noticed a glaring omission ...baby powder. I know
that may not sound so important, but it probably ranks right up there with the
best of the others. Every time I buy a new tube, I take it out of the box and give
it a good going over with baby powder (or you can spend 3 times the money on a
product called "tire talc" but it's basically the same thing without the nice
smell). Then I refold the tube and put it in a protective covering (either back in
the box, or wrapped in a piece of cloth). Here are some good reasons why it's
important to powder your tubes before you put them in the tire.

1. Allows easier installation-Ever had trouble getting the tube to go inside the
tire because the rubber tended to be tacky or sticky? Well, the powder allows the
tube to slide completely into the rim and tire much more easily without twisting
or pinching. If the tube is not completely settled into the tire and rim it's
subject to a pinch blowout upon inflation. Ever had a tire blow off the rim after
you'd spent 15 minutes changing it? Bummer huh?

2. Allows the tire and tube to work independently-This is very important because
after you inflate the tube inside the tire it will have a small amount of twist to
it. Powdering the tube allows the tube to align itself inside the tire. It also
keeps the tube from dragging the rim tape with it as it settles into its natural
position. If the rim tape is moved from over the spoke holes you will have
problems down the road . . . I promise.

3. Finally, it makes your hands smell nice after installation-What a plus here!
You can use the cloth you used to wrap the tube for protection to clean your
hands, and you will have the fresh smell of baby powder to titillate your senses
as you continue to ride down the road

One thing to remember if you powder your tube and you need to repair it. You will
need to clean the area around the hole very well and rough it up with the supplied
sandpaper to allow a good bond for the patch. The powder will sometimes interfere
with the glue and prevent a good seal.

A little preparation before you get on the road will go a long way in making your
rides more trouble free and more pleasurable. I always say that if you're changing
tires or having breakdowns on the road, you ain't having fun.
----------------

Did U NO:

Inner tube talc = French chalk = powdered soapstone?

One of the most closely guarded, yet least interesting industrial secret formulae
LOL.
----------------

I am about to do my first tire change. Any tips?
__________________
Thanks to: Paradise Motorsports, RK Chains, Goat Eyewear, ASV-USA, Twin Air,
Gaerne, ProClean 1000, MX Bonz, TekBolt, Throttle Jockey, M2R Helmets and Big Gun
Exhaust, Engine Ice Hi-Performance Coolant, Sixsixone Protection
2001 Yamaha YZ426F
2001 Yamaha TTR12L (Wife's)
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#2
Old 08-01-2002, 06:44 AM
razorhead68's Avatar
razorhead68 razorhead68 is offline
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: PA
Posts: 141
Keep a good supply of band aids around for your knuckles.

Remember to lubricate. keep a water spray bottle close by and keep the bead wet
when prying on it. Get some good tire irons. The Motion pro tire spoons work
great. Put a layer of duct tape over the spoke nipples on the inside of the rim.
Good luck. try and avoid pinching the tube while putting it back together. Once
again good luck.
__________________
2002 KTM 400EXC
Reply With Quote

--

A couple big keys that I've learned over the years:

1. Partially Inflate tube, just enough to hold shape. THis helps to prevent
pinches while installing.
2. Powder your tube with either tube talc or Baby powder. This helps prevent
pinches later.
3. Lube the bead. Use liberal amounts of very soapy water. I mix my lube about 4:1
water to detergent.
4. When levering on the tire, NEVER bring the iron past vertical. IF you don't
bring it past vertical, you can't pinch the tube.

I personally set up my rims so that the rimlock and valve stem are close together.
My rimlock is 4 spokes over from my stem. With it like this, I am able to start
with the tube in the new tire and I can slip the rim with rimlock onto the first
bead while at the same time inserting the valve stem into the rim. Once this is
done, you can shove about half the bead onto the rim with just your hands (some
dunlops I've put the whole first bead on w/o picking up an iron.) Next pick up the
irons and start working the bead on.

Once I get the first bead on, I lay the wheel down and spray down the second bead.
I then start at the rimlock and lever the bead over on both sides of the rimlock
being sure to depress the rimlock so the tire will slip under it. I then just
start working my way around the tire taking small "bites". You want to end up so
that the rim lock is 90-120 degrees away from the last part that needs to be
levered on. This will allow you to keep the tire bead down in the center of the
rim to give you the extra room to slip that last bit over.

Lastly, inflate to seat the bead.

HTH
Rob

---
ong as it is not a radial.
Tubes in tubeless radials are not reccomended.
I believe this to be because the tube has a relatively large effect on the
lightly constructed radial tyre and friction between the two can lead to
overheating.
Also the weight of the tube will alter the speed rating of the tyre, but as
you are running a tube unsealing the bead slightly at warp factor 9
may not matter too much.

ap--http://groups-
beta.google.com/group/rec.motorcycles/browse_thread/thread/6feffd33b65e265e/0fa7b2
f876d3f181?q=%22tube+type+rim%22&_done=%2Fgroups%3Fq%3D%22tube+type+rim%22%26hl%3D
en%26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DN%26tab%3Dwg%26&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#0fa7b2
f876d3f181

I don't know what the bias/radial thing is with tubes, but someone made a
radial tube at one time. I'm not sure they are still available.

----http://groups-
beta.google.com/group/rec.motorcycles/browse_thread/thread/6feffd33b65e265e/0fa7b2
f876d3f181?q=%22tube+type+rim%22&_done=%2Fgroups%3Fq%3D%22tube+type+rim%22%26hl%3D
en%26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DN%26tab%3Dwg%26&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#0fa7b2
f876d3f181

I think it was Metzler, and they don't. (I was in the motorcycle
shop yesterday, and the wrench showed me a tire that was goin in
the trash, 'cause it was a radial and had picked up a nail. He
mentioned that somebody (he said who, I don't recall) used to make
tubes for them, but nobody did anymore.

Bob Fourney--http://groups-
beta.google.com/group/rec.motorcycles/browse_thread/thread/6feffd33b65e265e/0fa7b2
f876d3f181?q=%22tube+type+rim%22&_done=%2Fgroups%3Fq%3D%22tube+type+rim%22%26hl%3D
en%26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DN%26tab%3Dwg%26&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#0fa7b2
f876d3f181

My wheels require a tube eventhough my tires are tubeless rated. Do tube
>type wheels/tires have a different design than tubeless types? Will it be
>more differcult to seat the bead of a tubeless tire on a tube type wheel,
>as compared to a tube tire.

Tubeless and tube type rims do have different bead designs. I've never
had any problems breaking the beads on a tube type rim, even with
tubeless tires on a tube-type rim.
--

- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text ---http://groups-
beta.google.com/group/rec.motorcycles/browse_thread/thread/4919334848af361a/a700e6
3703807e17?q=%22tube+type+rim%22&_done=%2Fgroups%3Fq%3D%22tube+type+rim%22%26hl%3D
en%26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DN%26tab%3Dwg%26&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#a700e6
3703807e17

Ok, allow me to rephrase my statement.
"Unless you're a masochist, you NEED a bead breaker for tubeless tires."

As easy as the bead breaker made the job, it just about paid for itself
on the first try. I have done it the hard way on tubless tires before,
never again!
--

- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text --http://groups-
beta.google.com/group/rec.motorcycles/browse_thread/thread/4919334848af361a/a700e6
3703807e17?q=%22tube+type+rim%22&_done=%2Fgroups%3Fq%3D%22tube+type+rim%22%26hl%3D
en%26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DN%26tab%3Dwg%26&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#a700e6
3703807e17

I spent one summer as the *Tire Man* at a Yamaha / Triumph shop....
I was the bead breaker.....it's technique - not muscle.
Nothing better than having some muscular hulk bring you a wheel
that he's been fighting (and mangling) for a few hours so you
can change it. He came in swearing at the wheel and asking if
we had a bead breaker.....the boss points to me, the owner says
No Way! I say way. Nyuck Nyuck Nyuck.
.................................Dr. Doom

Reply--http://groups-
beta.google.com/group/rec.motorcycles/browse_thread/thread/4919334848af361a/a700e6
3703807e17?q=%22tube+type+rim%22&_done=%2Fgroups%3Fq%3D%22tube+type+rim%22%26hl%3D
en%26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff%26sa%3DN%26tab%3Dwg%26&_doneTitle=Back+to+Search&&d#a700e6
3703807e17

Tire Mounting

Danger: Only specially trained persons should mount tires. Improper mounting can
cause tire explosion and serious injury.

Follow these mounting precautions:

* Wear approved eye protection.
* Clean and lubricate beads and rim.
* Centralize rim band and tube to prevent pinching if tube-type rim.

* *Note directional arrows on sidewall where applicable. Lock assembly on
mounting machine or place in safety cage before inflating to seat beads.
* Set air hose relief valve at 40 psi.
* Use extension gauge and hose with clip-on air chuck. Stand back with no part
of your body within the perimeter of the assembled tire and rim.
* Inflate with core in valve stem.
* Never inflate above 40 psi to seat beads.*
* Spin wheel to check bead seating and alignment.

*If the beads do not seat by 40 psi, deflate and repeat above procedures. Never
use a volatile substance or rubber "donut" to aid bead seating. If the tire is a
tube-type, deflate and reinflate after seating to prevent tube wrinkles.--
http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:YXn-
wd_DnTcJ:www.motoshopper.com/s/specials/tires/tireinstall.htm+%22tube+type+rim%22&
hl=en
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
BRAKE CYLINDERS, HYDRAULICS, HOSES
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

----------------------------
Congratulations Dave:

I have a 1980 EV600 that I drive every day. My advice is to avoid the
freeways and roads with limits over 55 mph. I insulated my battery
compartments and installed a set of Optima 12 volt batteries. They limit my
range to about 15 miles per charge but the lighter weight makes braking
easier. Many of the vans this age have sticking brake wheel cylinders. the
simple test for this problem is to jack up a wheel and have someone apply
the brakes when the brake is released you should be able to spin the wheel
by hand. If it is binding then a brake job is in order. You can usually just
buy generic 15/16" brake seals at your local autoparts store. If the pads
are worn you might have to find a local shop that relines brakes. Note you
should change the brake fluid as it absorbs water over time and will rust
the brake cylinders.
------------------------------
--------------------------

Hello,

I decided that it was about time to check the brake linings on my
ElectraVan. While I found the front OK, I found one of the rear wheel
cylinders leaking.

I stumbled around trying to find a rebuild kit, but the Nabco cylinder
uses a piston with a ring type seal rather than the usual cup type
seal. The bore as I measured it was 3/4 inch and I found that
documented in the archives as well. The archives also mentioned that a
kit for this cylinder is difficult to find.

So, I did a web search for kits. First, it is difficult to find a kit
by bore size. It is easy to find one by vehicle, but not our vehicle.
Second, even if you can find a ring type seal for the 3/4 bore, it seems
that the inside diameter or thickness of the ring where it fits in the
slot of the piston is even more difficult to match.

This being said, I decided that perhaps I should just cut off the end of
the piston and use a cup type seal. Another web search shows that
others have done this with success.
My question is, do you see any down side to doing this?

I'll post my results if you don't stop me from going down this path.

Thanks,
Mike

*****

Well, no one tried to stop me ...

I found that Omix-Ada had a part number A6133 (changing to 16724.01?)
that was meant as a universal 3/4 inch wheel cylinder kit for a jeep.
This kit seems available from many sources on the net. I was able to
cross reference it to a NAPA UBP127 on the NAPA web site. My local NAPA
disavowed any knowledge of that number, but were able to look it up by
the Omix-Ada number. It came up with a NAPA number of UP127.

The kit came with pistons as well as seals. At first, I thought that I
might be able to adapt the new pistons, but modifying the old ones
looked like a better plan. So, I hacksawed the ends off and smoothed
the new surfaces with a file.

I polished the inside of the wheel cylinder and put everything back
together and it all works fine. I am confident that there is no safety
issue, but perhaps the wheel cylinder will leak prematurely because of
my modification.

Reline the 4 brake shoes: $48
NAPA wheel cylinder kit 9
My labor Priceless

Thanks,
Mike

----------------------------
Don

I've redone the brakes in both of my electrovans. I havn't found many new parts.
Hone the wheel cylinders and purchase the universal brake parts at a local
autoparts store. If I remember correctly they are 15/16 inch. The size is cast on
the outside of the cylinder. As far as brake drumbs mine all measured true and
didn't need to even be turned the expert at the shop said this style with the
split rims attached directly to the drumb seldom have problems because of the
extra metal in the castings. He could have turned them but suggested a light hand
sanding to brake the glaze and remove some surface rust. Be sure to change all of
the brake fluid every few years and you shouldn't have problems with the brakes
except of course as all Electrovan drivers will attest they are undredesigned for
the extra weight of all those batteries

--------------------
Posted by Bob Smiley on 12/11/2004, 8:21 pm, in reply to "Brake Shoe relining"
64.203.47.181

Take the drums with you along with the shoes when you locate your reliner. It's a
must so they can get the arcing right along with clearances. Check your yellow
pages. Do the swap NOW to DOT 5 fluid. The one thing is to get the cylinders
really polished. They have to be super shiney to keep the DOT 5 fluid from seeping
out. I used finer and ever finer polishing compound on a rag-and-stick setup until
those cylinders I had looked like mirrors. No more water/corrozion problems ever
again!

---------------------

From: Jon Eidson <eidson@UNIX4.IS.TCU.EDU>
Subject: Need Front Brake Cylinder
Comments: To: ev600-l@TCU.EDU

Hi Gang ... The list has been kind of quiet lately, so I thought I'd post. Anyway
I'm in need of a front wheel brake cylindar. Does only have that list of parts for
the Subaru group that has replacment parts? I tried replacing the rubber cylindar
cup, but it is still leaking pretty bad. Thanks, Jon.
----------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Eidson
(J.Eidson@tcu.edu) Information Services Senior Systems Programmer Texas Christian
University (817) 257-6835 Fort Worth, Texas 76129 ------------------------
---------------

Subject: Re: Suspension substitution
Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <EV600-L@TCU.EDU>
In-Reply-To: <199804271656.JAA13701@dry3.jps.net>

>I'm working on the van's brakes (one wheel at a time) and have noticed how
>overloaded the coil-over-shocks are. Are there higher capacity shocks >available
from the wreckers? Which vehicles should I look for as parts >donors (don't want
the cost of buying anything new)? Do the front and rear >need different "donors"?
> good question..... I think BillG changed his shocks. On the sticky brake
question.... I've had mostly good luck with mine. the cylinder bores were worn so
they weren't too straight. I honed them and then rubbed just a little graphite
powder on the 'tops' of the cylinders, so when they were fully extended they
wouldn't get cockeyed and stick. I had a theory that if the fluid leaked out of
one,the other one extended farther than normal. I also installed some new springs.
I found some NAPA parts that seems to be a good fit. They are a little unusual,
but not impossible. WEhn mine stuck they were STUCK HARD! the van wouldn't even
roll. I was burning grease and I think I warped a drum. Now, if it happens I know
to just crawl under there and leak out some fluid and I'll get home. JERryu Stubbs

--------------------
--

Hi Mark,

I have an electra van also, my van is a 1979 and I had a problem with the
wheel cylinders sticking, that may be causing the heat in your drum/bearing area.

Take the drum off and push the brake peddle, Have a helper do that for you while
you watch the wheel cylinder. Look for free movment.

If the cylinder does not move freely you should remove the piston and clean it
with emory cloth, then reasemble.

It may be hard to get the piston out,I used the brake presure to push the pistons
out, that in itself was hard but it worked.

Hope this helps!

Phil

--

Hi Mark, First off, Welcome to the realm of Electravan ownership. My own opinion
of the brakes on these beasts cannot be repeated in polite company. No matter, it
sounds like your RF brake shoes are adjusted too tight or the hydraulics are
sticking. I recall also that someone came up with a source for rebuild kits for
the wheel cyls. It is somewhere on this list's archives. Let us know what you find
out. Thanks! Robert M. PS I'm curious to know what these vans sell for these days.

--

H Mark

I own 2 electrovans and had the same brake problems. Don't look for a rebuild kit
just go to your local auto parts store and get universal replacement cups (I think
on the outside of the wheel cylinder it says 15/16) they work fine. I found
several wheel cylinders with enough corrosion to make it hard to get them out. I
polished the inside with 1200 grit wet or dry sandpaper. Note if they have been
leaking the brake fluid is water soluable just rinse everything well in plain
water. Replace all of the brake fluid in the vehicle to prevent further corrision
in the brakes. I also use a pack of 8 Optima yellow top deep cycle batteries. It
shaves hundreds of pounds off the vehicle weight which makes braking much easier.
I only get about 25 mile range but it handles much better and the batteries are
maintenance free. I tried 9 batteries it didn't increase the range much and made
it to easy to cause the clutch to slip and only gained about 2mph on the top end
speed.

Have fun
Norman Smith

--

Hi Mark,

Pardon me for taking this discussion on a slightly different tack, but I just
wanted to remind the forum members that DOT3 brake fluid absorbs moisture (and I
suppose there are other types that do as well). If it is in service long enough,
it becomes saturated with water and at that point, things in brake system begin to
corrode. Because of this, DOT3 brake fluid should be replaced regularly. I am
guessing that this is what caused the problems you described below (not to mention
similar problems I found with Electrovan when I bought it).

The method I have seen recommended for dealing with this is to bleed the system
until all of the old fluid has been replaced by new. Since this can be a time
consuming and frustrating job, I choose to take a half-way measure which is much
easier and still seems to work well for me: I replace the fluid in the master
cylinder reservoir every time I do the regular maintenance on the vehicle. I do
this by using a turkey baster to suction the old brake fluid out of the reservoir
and then I carefully wipe out any debris that has collected in the bottom using a
lint free rag before refilling it with fresh fluid.

I have noticed that the brake fluid becomes darker as it absorbs water. Before I
started following the procedure I describe above, there were times where the brake
fluid in my vehicles became the color of maple syrup. Now it never shows more than
a yellow tinge.

I suppose the big question here is, "How often should I do this?". With my
internal combustion powered vehicles it gets done every time I change the oil.
That works out to two to four times a year. I suppose this is more often than it
is really needed. On the other hand, brake fluid is cheap (especially compared to
major brake system work), and it doesn't cost much even if you change it too
often.

By the way, brake fluid will damage point, so be careful not to spill it. Also,
don't step on the brake pedal when the reservoir is empty as you will introduce
air into the brake lines and then you will have to bleed the system.

Best regards,
Andy Hall

--

In 9 years and 70,000 km of running, my van has occasionally had sticking brakes
due to the following...

1. Sticking wheel cylinder pistons due to corrosion and gunk build-up.
Solution: Remove pistons from the cylinder, clean everything out with methyl
alcohol and light cylinder honing if necessary. Replace rubber cups if necessary.
Flush entire system with new brake fluid.

WARNING: DO NOT "FLUSH PARTS IN WATER" -- You don't want any water getting into
or inside parts. If you have to use water for some cleaning, make sure to
thoroughly dry and then flush with alcohol afterwards to remove any water residue.

2. Rear wheel sticking due to seizing of the emergency brake lever mechanism that
connects between the end of the cable and inside the brake drum.
Solution: Remove the mechanism and work it back and forth until the joint is
loose. Heat and some banging may be necessary but don't bend it :) You can try
lubing with some Never-Seiz but it's hard to get into the joint.

Robb

--------------------------------------

Sender: Jet Electravan EV600 Owners List <EV600-L@listserv.tcu.edu>
From: Norman Smith <normsmithii@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: front wheel cylinder needed 15/16 nabco
Comments: To: EV600-L@TCU.EDU
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

ken: I ordered the sheel cylinder repair kit for the BRAT it won't work on the
EV600. however I fixed my brake problem by buying 15/16" brake seals available at
almost any auto parts store. I had to use 1200 grit wet dry sandpaperto polish the
rust out of the cylinder and off of the piston and the work now. Norman >From: Ken
Huck <kenhuck@JPS.NET>
>Reply-To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <EV600-L@TCU.EDU>
>To: EV600-L@TCU.EDU >Subject: front wheel cylinder needed 15/16 nabco
>Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 03:02:03 -0500
> >Hi All,
> >I just got my Electra-Van batteried up and rolling only to find it veers
>hard left during >braking. Turns out I really need a wheel cylinder for it.
> >Each drum has 2 -15/16 Nabco cylinders.
>Does anyone know if the Subaru BRAT cylinder would fit?
> >I called Ken Bancroft in Houston (713) 729-8668 and did not hear back yet.
> >Does anyone have the parts manual from the Subaru 360 club it might say
>what othe
>r vehicle used a similar brake system.
> >Perhaps I could get a copy or you could tell me what vehicles had the same
>brakes.
> >Thanks.
>Ken Huck
>P.S. The van is for sale for US$ 4000

---------------------

Ken, I haven't tried this myself, but I understand that about any brake shoe can
be relined. I assume that you still have the shoes. Check for local clutch and
brake relining shops. (I did have my clutch done that way.) A bigger problem might
be wheel cylinders should you need them. I think that the Subaru 360 Driver's Club
that I mentioned before has some leads for them. Mike

-------------------
Curious, but I've had problems with seizing brakes, most often the
front left. To get going again, let some juice out of the brake with
a 10mm wrench.

I rebuilt and honed the cylinders true, and installed new brake return
springs. I found some at a parts house that I think were more like the
orginals springs than what mine had on it. Still, I had the front left
drag on my for a time or two a couple of months ago. Problem has never
occurred for me in the summer, so I let it slide when the weather is most
suited to doing under the car repairs....

A friend of mine suggested that I must have moisture in the lines. It
also occurred to me that I have a defect in my fluid bottle, and perhaps
a tiny plastic chip found it's way down into the master cylinder, making
the valve stick... who knows?

I like my van and though the brakes are kind of weak the vehicle does
a good enough job for what I need, and has been very low maintainance
for the year and half I've had it.

SOmeone else was looking on the net here for a wheel cylinder...dont
know but the 360 club newsletters are full of replacement workarounds.
OFten someone will get their cylinders resleeved with brass or stainless,
then they'll last forever.
I"ll try and post the 360 club address.. if I can still find it. I lost
my entire home directory for almost two weeks while we had a major disk
crash.

JErry Stubbs

--

Sender: North Texas Electric Auto Association <EV600-L@tcu.edu>
From: William Glickman <billglic@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Suspension substitution
Comments: To: EV600-L@TCU.EDU

Hi Jerry, Yes, I did change the coil over shocks in my 79 ElectraVan. I used
adjustable racing coil over shocks from Carrera. They were the closest when
compressed and extended to those that were on the Van. I used coils with 155 pound
per inch compression on each front wheel and coils with 125 pounds per inch
compression on each rear wheel. I compressed each front coil about 2.25 inches out
of a possible 3 inches and each rear coil about 2 inches out of a possible 3
inches after installation. The ride is a little stiff, but body height is correct
and the front of Van dips nicely on a panic stop. It was either use Carrera or
have new torsion bars made to order and then try to find other inexpensive coil
over shocks that I had not found. I tried to readjust the front torsion bar, but
was unable to keep the body from being too high. Too high caused the wheels to
scrub and make noise on turns. I have the Carrera part numbers in a notebook if
someone needs them, but they were about $ 125 per shock. Each shock included a
coil spring, adjusting tube, collar, and nut. This price was after a substantial
discount because I put their signs on my ElectraVan for the 1996 American Tour de
Sol from New York City to Washington, DC. I removed the right front brake drum and
found no evidence of a sticking wheel cylinder, weak springs, or broken springs.
The drums seem to move in and out with the movement of the brake pedal. It is hard
to understand unless maybe the rubber brake hose has deteriorated enough to let
fluid get by on the way to the brake drum and not return as fast for some reason.
The front brakes are self adjusting, factory set at 0.012 clearance. I may try
bleeding both fronts again to see if there is any air in the lines. Later, Bill

>On the sticky brake question.... I've had mostly good luck with mine.
>the cylinder bores were worn so they weren't too straight. I honed
>them
>and then rubbed just a little graphite powder on the 'tops' of the
>cylinders, so when they were fully extended they wouldn't get cockeyed
>and stick. I had a theory that if the fluid leaked out of one,the
>other one extended farther than normal.
-------------------------------------------------

I usually don't drive more than a few miles at a time, so I can't
comment on what is normal (you said five miles, I think?). I suppose
something that might make my wheels just warm in a half mile might
make them hot in 5.

WHen my brakes stick, they get smoking in 2-3 miles, and when I come
to a stop, I can't even push it. ALso waiting at a light it won't
roll at all.

Unless you just have a warped drum ( and it gets a little rub on every
rev) I would suspect the wheel bearings.
JERry STubbs

--------------------------------------------------

* From: David Roden <roden@ALD.NET>
* Date: Sat, 9 May 1998 20:31:33 -0400
* Reply-To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <EV@SJSUVM1.SJSU.EDU>
* Sender: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <EV@SJSUVM1.SJSU.EDU>

>At 05:37 PM 5/9/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>I finally got around to bleeding the brakes, but now I get that firm pedal
>>pressure only after a pump...the first push goes far down and has weaker
>>braking. Do I have to bleed them again, or is something else needed? The
>>reservoir is the highest point, with the master cylinder next.

Sounds like you still have air in the system somewhere. I've always found
it took much longer (and used far more fluid) than I expected.

Put your bleeder hose in a glass jar of brake fluid, and make sure that no
bubbles come out for at least 4-5 pedal pumps before you call it done.

--http://solstice.crest.org/discussion/ev/199805/msg00187.html

* Subject: Re: Basic brake info (Subaru van)
* From: Mike Chancey <evtinker@JUNO.COM>
* Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 01:33:41 -0500
* Reply-To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <EV@SJSUVM1.SJSU.EDU>
* Sender: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <EV@SJSUVM1.SJSU.EDU>

On Sat, 9 May 1998 20:31:33 -0400 David Roden <roden@ALD.NET>
>Put your bleeder hose in a glass jar of brake fluid, and make sure
>that no
>bubbles come out for at least 4-5 pedal pumps before you call it done.

Hi David and all,

Last year I picked up a little "One Man Brake Bleeder Kit" at an auto
parts store for about $5. Get one, they are the bee's knees. All it is
is a plastic bottle with a magnet to hold it above the bleeder screw
level, some clear plastic hose, and a couple of plastic tips to fit into
the bleeder screws. It makes brake bleeding painless and clean, no more
fluid all over the floor. In the past I have used the two man method,
the hose and bottle method, and even a preasure bleeder. The little kit
is by far the best. It also works for master cylinders. Also one other
tip. When bleeding brakes, put a piece of wood on the floor under the
brake pedal to keep it from going all the way down. This will keep the
master cylinder piston from bottoming out in the normally unused area at
the end of the stroke. This is where corrosion, rust, and dirt collect,
and pushing into it can ruin the piston seal and the master cylinder.
Using the wood block will mean more strokes to reach the "no bubbles"
stage, but would you rather replace the master cylinder?

Thanks,

Mike Chancey
evtinker@ionet.com / evtinker@juno.com
See My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/Vines/5565/
MAEAA chapter page at: http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Downs/4214/--
http://solstice.crest.org/discussion/ev/199805/msg00200.html

----------------

============================

If the brakes are in good condition, correctly adjusted and the brake pedal goes
to the floor when the vehicle isn�t moving and there is no fluid loss I�d be
looking real hard at the brake master cylinder as the cause.

=============================

By the way.. I would suggest you replace the cylinder and shoes, at least, on the
other side as well at the front.. It is not a good idea to have unbalanced
components between two wheels on the same axle.

----------------------------
When it seems impossible to get all the air out, one trick is to hook up the bleed
tube, fill the reservoir, then just pump the pedal like crazy about 20 times. Uses
up a lot of fluid, but sometimes does the trick. Brian

==========================

I sure like the vacuum pump adapters for bleeding
some time the brake light switches have air trapped in them making it almost
impossable to get all the air out
have fun
hank

==========================

Things are getting desperate. I have been out there in the brake fluid for 3 weeks
now and getting nowhere.

I bought brake bleeders for every hole on the MC (just bear with me for a sec) and
put them in. Every hole including the switches has a bleeder. I then had my wife
hold pressure on the pedal and I bled out every one of the MC holes. This resulted
in a rock hard pedal. MC should be good, right?? I then hooked up just the left
front line and bled the line. Pedal goes to the floor. I replaced the wheel
cylinder on that side just to be sure, then bled it again. Pedal still to the
floor. This is getting ridiculous. I have never had so much trouble out of brakes
before in my life!!

This time it is just with the left front line hooked up and still nothing
I hope someone can help.
www.openroad.ca/volkswebbin/viewtopic.php

=============================

I remember when I had the same problem on my '71 super, after weeks and weeks of
messing with it I finally took it to A break shop and had them put the air bleeder
on it, still with no luck. Finally one afternoon when I was down there pumping the
break peddle with my hand(because my foot was so tired) I stumbled onto a leak in
the line under the carpet. It had simply rusted through, and with the way the
fluid was seeping down the frame I assumed the fluid everywere was just part of my
mess from a month or so of bleeding breaks.

Just something to think about.
good luck.
steven

================================

Well I pulled up the carpet and checked out the brake line that runs inside the
car and everything looks fine. I connected all of the liines and bled the brakes
very thoroughly. Now my brakes work great!! At halfway to the floor on the pedal:-
( Just FYI but I tried a hand vacuum bleeder pump system and it kept sucking air
in around the threads on the bleeders.

I don't know what else to do. The pedal goes very firm and the brakes work great
but they don't start working until halfway to the floor on the pedal. About 3-5
inches of pedal travel before any braking begins.

===============================

Dave: You can tell if the MC pushrod is adjusted correctly by the following: get
down in there by the pedal cluster and very carefully and without a lot of force,
depress the brake pedal by hand (fingertips!) You should feel the push rod just
contact (close your eyes and "feel") the MC piston with only a very little free
throw. The actual dimension/specification is something on the order of about 1 mm
which translates to probably a half inch or less at the brake pedal pad.

There is a pedal stop plate down there under and in front of where the pedal
cluster is positioned. It is a small "L" shaped plate held in place with a bolt.
The plate needs to be positioned so that the faces of the pads on the brake and
clutch pedals are essentially vertical (perpendicular to the floor).

To me, your problem still sounds like something wrong in the second MC. I think
that you mentioned Brazilian or Mexican? I once had a Brazilian unit installed and
was never happy with its performance. I swapped it out for a German unit and all
the issues went away. Of course the cost for a German unit is probably twice the
cost of a Brazilian or Mexican unit, but after all of your trials, probably worth
the cost. Good luck. Clancy

==============================
O.K. I bled everything VERY well. I got some air out of the left side bleeder but
other than that not much air.

I adjusted all of the shoes up and noticed that every time I would push on the
brakes after adjusting them they would loosen up. So I would retighten them and
hit the brakes, they would loosen, then I would retighten, etc.
I readjusted them and took the car for a very short (and very cautious) drive and
the pedal went almost to the floor again. When I pulled back in and checked, all
of the brakes had loosened up again.

===============================
Dave: Another thought... check to see if the adjusters are installed correctly. By
this, I mean check out the "slope" in the slot of the end of the adjuster that the
brake shoes fit into. This slot slants to one end and the shoes need to be fitted
correctly (i.e. it may be necessary to rotate the adjuster 180 degrees to get the
shoe to set properly in the adjuster). This could affect the ability to get a
proper adjustment of the brakes. Also check to see if the "stop plates" are
functional to keep the adjuster stars from turning freely. If they are loose or
missing the barkes will "back off" in their adjustment....ust a couple of more
things to check. Good luck. Clancy

===============================

That's an excellent point Clancy. When I replaced the front shoes and drums I
removed everything including the backing plate and cleaned it all. I actually
sandblasted and painted the backing plates. I just don't feel like a job is done
well unless the parts are clean.

I didn't know that there is a certain direction for the slots. It is a definite
possibility that I put them back together wrong. So they should slant to the
outside?

Yesterday I went out to the garage and put clear hoses on each of the rear brake
bleeders, then ran each of these into a brake fluid container. I opened both of
the bleeders and had my wife slowly push the brakes. I didn't get any fluid
movement until the pedal was halfway to the floor. I didn't get any air, but no
fluid either until halfway to the floor. To me this would indicate that the MC is
just not doing it's job.

My local VW guy has a German MC and yes, it is pricey, but it may be well worth it
to avoid all of this mess again. Unfortunately it will be the 3rd MC in 3
weeks.One was a rebuilt unit from Autozone, the other a Brazilian, and the 3rd
will most likely be the German one.

=================================

Checking your adjuster installation is free (if not easy). What are the chances
that the two other MCs you bought just happened to be bad? Maybe I'm wrong about
this, but I think it's something other than the MC, and based on the adjustment
problems you're reporting, I'd start there.

2005-02-02 09:10:17
Quote
Clancy
Member

From: Colorado Springs, CO
Registered: 2004-03-27
Posts: 285

Dave: Off the top of my head... I can't remember exactly which way the "slant"
goes....but it is pretty obvious once you are staring at them. The shoe base
should sit evenly in the slot... try it and you will see it easier than I can
explain it in words. If you're not sure, rotate the slot 180 degrees and take a
look. It should be apparent. Good luck. Clancy

2005-02-02 16:29:22
Quote
Dave
Guest

Here's a quick update.

I checked out the adjusters and found that I only had 1 installed incorrectly.
Lucky me. So I went ahead and pulled the brazilian MC and replaced it with a new
German unit.

Now the brakes go about halfway to the floor but with some foot action (pumping)
they do come up to about an inch of pedal travel. This indicates some
air/adjustment procedures that still need to be done. With everything I have had
to do to the brakes in the last few weeks it doesn't suprise me at all.

At least with the last round of work to the brakes they are showing an
improvement. It really gets annoying when you put in all the time and effort and
things just keep getting worse.

I'll put the vac bleeder on them (I bled them once already) and see what happens
then go back and adjust everything again.

On a small sidenote, I found that while using the Vac bleeder before I kept
getting air out of all of the bleeders. A LOT of air. But I found out that it was
actually air that was being pulled in from around the threads of the bleeders. I
put some Teflon tape on the bleeder threads and this seemed to cure that problem.

Thanks again,

Dave

=============================

Hi Dave,

You are singing the same EXACT song I was singing two summers ago. I replaced
EVERYTHING eventually--and went through tons of fluid while trying to bleed the
system.

I found the same thing with the vac bleeder. tons of air, but no pressure. I
went through bleeders like they were candy.

Once I did the teflon tape trick, It worked immediately. I then did the
traditional way using an assistant on the pedal. (the vac worked as a quick
bleed, but I don't know how complete they are)

I also found that some bleeders you get from parts stores are shorter/standard
heads with the metric threads.

I will only buy the correct lonter bleeders.
congrats on the fix! I wish I had seen all of this before I started on the
venture.

Head

2005-02-07 07:02:46
E-mail Quote
Dave
Guest

UPDATE:PROBLEM SOLVED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I finally found a local VW guy. It took a lot of research and asking around and
then once I contacted him he said he was retired and didn't fool with VW's
anymore. But he said he would see if he could help me out. I went over to his
place and there where probably 15 or 20 VW's sitting around his house.
(Retired...right!).

Bottom line here is that he took the front drums off and flipped the shoes over
and put everything back together, adjusted the brakes and sent me on my merry
little way.

I had the shoes on backwards, hence the adjusters were backwards. Live and learn I
guess.

Thanks again for all of the help.

Dave

===============================

Dave: Congratulations! Were the return springs on upside down as well? This is
where a good manual with an exploded diagram or a digital camera for "before"
pictures is invaluable. Clancy

================================
================================

RAY: I can always count on my brother for thinking outside the box. What he bought
was a new tire, and when they installed the tire on the car, they didn't balance
it correctly, or didn't balance it, perhaps, at all. And as the car is going down
the road and the thing is shaking, it is setting up a sympathetic vibration in the
disc rotor, which is moving the caliper piston away from the disc, so that when
you step on the brake that first time, the pedal will travel almost to the floor.
We've seen this happen with cars whose wheel bearings are loose.
================================

A defective master cylinder.
If the bore in the master cylinder is pitted or the rubber seals have decreased in
size then some fluid will bypass the seals under pressure giving a lower pressure
to the wheels and a softer spongier brake pedal.
To test for this condition remove the brake lines from the master cylinder and
plug the outlets (obtain outlet plugs from a local auto parts store). When you
apply the brake pedal it should be high and firm. If it is spongy or slowly goes
down then either the bore of the master cylinder is pitted or the rubber seals are
bad.

Loose front or rear wheel bearings.
If the wheel bearings are loose they will allow the rotor to wobble during use
instead of running true. This will cause the pistons in the brake calipers to be
pushed back further into the caliper than they were meant to. The result is that
the pedal must be pushed further to the floor before the brakes come on.

Air in the system.
This is obvious but sometimes all the air has not been removed after bleeding. One
reason is the incorrect orientation of the bleeder screws in the wheel cylinders.
If the screw is not at the highest point on the cylinder chamber then a pocket of
air will always remain. Check the screw orientation.
Master cylinder piston diameter too small.
If the diameter of your master cylinder piston is smaller than required by wheel
system volume requirements then you will experience a long pedal travel. Determine
what the original master cylunder bore diameter was and replace the master if too
small. Remember with an old vehicle the master could have been incorrectly
replaced by a previous owner.

Wrong master cylinder
When you add disc brakes to the rear you must use a true 4 wheel disc master
cylinder. The pressure and volume requirements to the rear are much greater than
that required by drums, disc brakes require more pressure and volume. A four wheel
disc master will have a longer stroke and will provide more pressure to the rear
disc brakes.
Air in rear calipers
Rear calipers are very hard to bleed properly. Sometimes they can be bled only
when removed from the car.Try taking them off, place a block of wood between the
pads and bleed while tapping and orienting the bleeder screw up.

Rear caliper problem
If you are using Cadillac ElDorado rear calipers there are some important things
you should know. One of the biggest advantages of a disc brake system is the fool
proof self adjuster. Not so with this rear GM system. The rear calipers adjust off
the parking brake. The parking brake is incorporated into the caliper. You must
set the parking brake every time you park the car.The rear caliper pitons utilize
a one way clutch inside the caliper piston. When the parking brake is applied the
clutch senses when there is .030" or more clearence between the friction material
and the rotor on the inboard side. When there is more than .030" the clutch turns
inside the piston adjusting it out keeping the rear brakes adjusted. If you do not
set your parking brake every time you will start to lose brake pedal (low and
spongy) and the adjuster mechanism will not work any longer. Also: never use
rebuilt calipers on the rear because the rebuilders use the old pistons and the
pistons were the reason the caliper failed in the first place.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
REPLACING BRAKES AND WHEELS
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

---------------------------------------

Subject: Junkyard highlights part #1

Target: hub on spindle disc brakes.This means FWD rears or RWD fronts. Found wheel
rim (12") to caliper interference every time. Plan B: Search for larger drum brake
possibilities. Nothing viable found. Plan C: Back to drawing board. Interesting
discovery: Subaru Justy rear drums may be an electravan bolt on for the front.
It's very close. Further investigation needed.This would allow the use of the
Justy's 12" tubeless rims on the front. To be continued...

---------

-----------------------------------------

In-Reply-To: <1064963269_51751@localhost.localdomain>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Those wheels sound fantastic -- I've been debating getting a new set of 10" tires
(expensive) for quite a while. I'd much rather have rims that take commonly
available tires. Would you consider making another set of rims and selling them to
me? Perhaps even two sets since I'm about to set up a friend with my red van
that's been stored for too long. If you don't want to make rims for hire, can you
tell us what materials and design you used so I can have someone local make them
up for me? Thanks, Robb Zuk 3 Electravans: 1 blue, 1 red, 1 rusty for parts.

On Tue, 30 Sep 2003, Rob Vasichek wrote:
> > Well I finally had enough of those 10 inch two part tube type wheels.
> I made a set (5) of 12 inch tubeless wheel

-------------------------------------------

Howdy Mike,
I have a 1979 Jet Industries ElectraVan 600 with 145RC10 Avon steel
belted radial tires that are rated for 1100 pounds at 65 psi.
I can move the van by just leaning on it when the transmission is in
neutral.
Check your brakes for locking up or maybe the emergency brake.
I had 18 Douglas (made by Trojan) EV137 (equivalent to T125s) in the van
and had a 40+ mile range down to about 80 % and max of 55 miles down to
almost nothing left. You must have some of the brakes sticking or
even possibly need to repack or replace the wheel bearings. Also check
wheel alignment. I also asked Rob for the cost of another set of five
12 inch wheels for my van.
Menlo Park III, Glastonbury
Bill

-------------------
Hi
Robb. I do not have the time to make more
wheels. It took me two years to do
mine! Here is what I did. I
looked at several different 12 inch wheels. I decided on 12
inch spoked trailer wheels. I chose there because they
are an assembled wheel that I could easily take apart. The
spoked hub is welded to the rim with four welds about two inches
each. ( see the wheel at
www.northrentool.com
item #12242 ) I ground off the welds and removed the center
hub. I took a 12 inch rim and an original wheel to a
machine shop and had disks made to fit. 3/16 mild
steel. Next I took all the 12 inch wheels ,disks and
the Bus to a fabricator to have the holes drilled and disks welded
in. Then paint. Last I got new wheel
nuts. I got flange nuts to increase the holding area and
minimize the flexing. I have over 500 miles on them and they
work fine. One last thing, I filled the tires with dry
nitrogen as opposed to compressed air to make the tires last
longer. Hope this helps. I highly
recommend it. Rob

----------------------

------------------------------
From: "Andrew D. Hall" <adhall@SEANET.COM>
Subject: Re: 12 inch wheels
Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <EV600-L@tcu.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

>I have been thinking about doing the thing you describe here. The
previous owner of my van provided me with a set of wheels and tires from
a Honda Civic which he had thinking of converting. One of my concerns,
though, is any effects this may have on the steering geometry.

>

>So I have some questions for you:

>

>1. Is it important to maintain the same location of the centerline of
the tire tread with respect to the hubs with the larger wheels?
Yes, but more for clearance than
steering geometry.
>

>2. Did you notice any difference in the steering or handling with the
larger wheels?

> Yes. The Bus steers
with less effort and the handling is more precise.

>3. Did you need to adjust the
wheel alignment to accommodate the larger wheels?
No.
>

>Thanks,

>adh

>
----------------------------
------------------

All 360s have 10" wheels with 2 piece rims with tubes. Mini Coopers also have 10"
wheels.
----------------------------

re: Are the Subaru 600 Van brakes the same as the Subaru 360's?

Posted by Mark Freidberg on 7/31/2005, 8:19 pm, in reply to "Re: Are the Subaru
600 Van brakes the same as the Subaru 360's?"
64.136.26.228

Hi Mark,

A response from someone else indicated that the Subaru 360 and 600 parts aren't
interchangeable. So I guesss that answers the question I posted. That said, I'm
seeking a mechanic in the Portland area who can assist with inspections and
repairs on the 600 brakes. Do you know of any?

Mark
-----------------------------------------------------------
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
BRAKE SHOES AND DRUMS
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

On Mon, 16 Feb 1998 10:45:30 -0600, Jerry STUBBS wrote:

>>Hello ElectraVanners!
>>I just got on this list, and haven't even had a chance to drive my
>>newly-acquired 1980 model -- it has a seized brake, and work just keeps
>>getting it the way. I have been told Dlectric Motor Car in Houston, TX, has
>>Jet parts....has anyone dealt with them? My as-yet undriven ElectraVan
>
>I got some brake drums from him,

Was it the Right front drum? The right front in my EV600 seems to be getting out
of shape, causing a pulsing
in the break peddle. Has this happened to anyone else?

he was really fast and reasonable. He
>has several carcasses. Probalby your best bet for most things, although
>if you can get part numbers you might get new stuff from Subaru. I was
>able to get some part numbers and got some small parts that way. Took
>them several weeks, but brand new parts in factory bags are worth waiting
>for sometimes.
>
>JErry
>

---

-----------------------------------
(Mar 2004)
Hello Rob,

Do you have any word on the part number for the brake shoes.

PS your email went to the bottom of my in box my comptuer thought it was
dated 2002.

thank you
kenhuck@jps.net
828-273-5334
>From: Rob Vasichek <oleoranch@AAAHAWK.COM>
> I have the
>Daihatsu part number.; I need to find
>it. You will need to get them at a grounds equipment
>dealer.The shoes are the same as a HiJet. These were
>sold to golf corses ets. I will get the number in the
>nest several days.
--------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2002 20:28:39 -0500
Reply-To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <EV600-L@TCU.EDU>
Sender: Jet Electravan EV600 Owners List <EV600-L@listserv.tcu.edu>
From: Rob Vasichek <oleoranch@AAAHAWK.COM>
Subject: Re: seeking brake shoes for EV_600
Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <EV600-L@TCU.EDU>
In-Reply-To: <19380210171906.32698@smtp.onemain.com>
Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii"

Ken I have the Daihatsu part number. I need to find it. You will
need to get them at a grounds equipment dealer. The shoes are the same as a
HiJet. These were sold to golf corses ets. I will get the number in the nest
several days. Rob. At 03:47 PM 3/18/04 -0800,
you wrote:

>Hello All,

>

>I am in need of rear break shoes for my Jet ElectraVan 600.

>

--

Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2004 08:41:09 -0700
Reply-To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <EV600-L@TCU.EDU>
Sender: Jet Electravan EV600 Owners List <EV600-L@listserv.tcu.edu>
From: "Michael A. Radtke" <michael.radtke@BULL.COM>
Subject: Re: [ElectraVan] seeking brake shoes for EV_600
Comments: To: ElectraVan@yahoogroups.com
Comments: cc: EV600-L@TCU.EDU
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Ken, I haven't tried this myself, but I understand that about any brake shoe can
be relined. I assume that you still have the shoes. Check for local clutch and
brake relining shops. (I did have my clutch done that way.) A bigger problem might
be wheel cylinders should you need them. I think that the Subaru 360 Driver's Club
that I mentioned before has some leads for them. Mike

---

Re: Brake Shoe relining

Posted by Bob Smiley on 12/11/2004, 8:21 pm, in reply to "Brake Shoe relining"
64.203.47.181

Take the drums with you along with the shoes when you locate your reliner. It's a
must so they can get the arcing right along with clearances. Check your yellow
pages. Do the swap NOW to DOT 5 fluid. The one thing is to get the cylinders
really polished. They have to be super shiney to keep the DOT 5 fluid from seeping
out. I used finer and ever finer polishing compound on a rag-and-stick setup until
those cylinders I had looked like mirrors. No more water/corrozion problems ever
again

---------------------------------
William Glickman wrote:

> My 1979 Jet Industries ElectraVan 600 gets between 3.5 miles and 4 miles
> per kilowatt hour of battery storage. It has 8 ply steel belted 145R10
> radial tires with a "C" load and 65 psi max pressure ratings. It
> suffers from a bad reverse gear that either jumps out of gear or has some
> bad teeth. I have not taken the transaxle transmission apart to find
> out and will not until there is either hope of a reasonable quick
> solution or a complete failure.
> How many miles per kilowatt hour does your ElectraVan perform ?
> Does your reverse gear suffer the same problem and what is your solution
> ??
> I am also looking for a spare rear drum because the integral spline was
> slightly damaged after I failed to tighten the castle nut to 116 FT-LBs
> per shop manual.
> Thankyou,
> Bill Glickman
> Glastonbury, CT
>
> _____________________________________________________________________
> You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
> Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
> Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]
>
> ElectraVan 600s Reverse & Performance

---------------------------------------

From: "Michael A. Radtke" <michael.radtke@BULL.COM>
Subject: Re: Disc brakes upgrade?
Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <EV600-L@TCU.EDU>

Jim, You are certainly correct in calling them underpowered brakes. However, I
have had no reliability problems with mine. As far as I can see all the components
are original and seem to be OK after 20 years. When I first drove the van, I
decided that I needed to deal with the brakes. I did an inspection and adjustment
and found all 4 wheels and the master cylinder fine. So I decided to live with the
brakes for a while. I have driven about 4,000 miles now and have gotten quite used
to the pedal pressure needed to stop. I have had a great number of emergencies and
I have done just fine in all of them. Meanwhile, I've investigated solutions to
reducing the pedal pressure. I've talked to a number of local brake folks. It
surprised me, but the most frequent suggestion was to add a vacuum booster to the
master cylinder. However, that looks like a mechanical impossibility to me. I was
able to find out that linings with higher coefficients of friction were available.
This seems like a good approach since the even though these linings may be more
prone to fading, our ElectraVans are unlikely to see conditions where that is
important. One major risk in changing to these linings is that the higher friction
could cause the brakes to lock up prematurely when stopping because the existing
mechanics of the brakes are probably designed to amplify the brake shoe pressure
on the drum when stopping in the forward direction. In other words, the higher
friction linings cause the brakes to lock up no matter how lightly they are
applied. The consensus seemed to be that the only way to know if higher friction
linings significantly reduced pedal pressure without locking up was to try them.
This information comes from folks who do less common brakes for things like fork
lifts and trucks. Auto brake shops were clueless and brake lining manufacturers
didn't want to talk at all. In summary, my plan is to put my van up on blocks and
take all the shoes to a truck or industrial type brake shop. I will ask them to
reline the shoes with "racing" lining. I plan to start this experiment in the next
month or so and I will report back to the list what happens. Of course, if anyone
has any clues to help me, I'd most welcome the advice. Thanks, Mike -------
--

>Any thoughts?
>
>Jim the oem brakes work ok IF everything is just right. I looked into a
retrofit to disc brakes and thought it would be too expensive. However
if you get it worked out I may be willing to split the cost and do my bus
also. Rob. (ASE Master Mechanic)

-----

>
>Thanks,
>Mike racing lining will increase the pressure needed to stop. You need
softer linings. I did this on my C Car and found the softer linings gave
good stopping with less pressure on the brake but only lasted about 200
miles. I drive my Jet Bus 45 miles a day and like the longer lasting
shoes. I will just push harder. Rob. ( ASE Master Mechanic )
>
>

-------------

From: "Michael A. Radtke" <michael.radtke@BULL.COM>
Subject: Re: Disc brakes upgrade?
Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <EV600-L@TCU.EDU>
Comments: cc: "oleoranch@AAAHAWK.COM" <oleoranch@AAAHAWK.COM>

Hi Rob, Thanks for the note on the "racing" linings. You might have guessed that
this is just exactly the opposite of what I was told by a fellow at Competition
Friction. I will not switch linings until I get to see the friction numbers on the
lining. Thanks for the "heads up." I hadn't considered the lining life either, so
thanks again. Mike Phoenix, AZ ... only 20 miles per day.

-------------------

Re: 360 Brakes

Posted by Ed on 12/7/2004, 11:25 am, in reply to "360 Brakes"
205.188.116.204
Go see Jamie at Carter Subaru there in Seattle. If she can't get new parts (or
even if she can) you ought to join the Club! Our Book of Reprints has lots of
listings of crossover parts that will work on your 360. Our reason for being is to
keep 360s on the road and running on both cylinders.

Ed Parsil, Tucson AZ
(club at http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Garage/5360/main.html )
----------------------------------
From: Ken Huck <kenhuck@j...>
Date: Wed Sep 8, 2004 2:10 pm
Subject: Electravan brake part numbers

ADVERTISEMENT
Hello All Especially Rob Vasichek oleoranch@A...

Rob please email me the adress I have for you is bouncing.

Hello Rob,

My local supplier at Turf & Industrial in San Jose CA said that the rear
brake shoe # 47420-87596-000 has been changed by Daihatsu to part number
47420-87513-000

What do you think of this. I have a call into Daihatsu help (Leon) at 1-
800-777-7070 to clarify this situation.

I also need a hydralic cylinder for the same rear drum brake any ideas or
suggestions?

Thank you,
kenhuck@j...
828-273-5334
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
WHEEL BALANCING AND ALIGNMENT
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Muse <bugs@USE4.COM>
Sent: Oct 31, 2005 9:05 PM
To: EV600-L@TCU.EDU
Subject: Bowlegged Electravan

Anybody know what might be going on here?

When I look at the front of my van, I see what appears to be way, way
too much positive camber. The tires lean in so much that the outside
edges have tread worn off, while the inside edges have little wear.

I took a look at the coilover shocks in front, they appear to be about
the right size, and all but about 1 1/2" of the shaft/spring is compressed.

The manual just says that "camber doesn't need to be adjusted."

Dave Muse
Hey Dave, Make sure your toe is correctly adjusted. I was looking in the manual
and saw the caster spec is 15 degrees 25'. This is a LOT of caster! most cars are
5 degrees or less. This means any deviation in toe, in or out ,will have your
tires riding on either the inside or outside edges. I work on BMW professionally
and see this regularly. BMW uses alot of caster on their cars as well, (about 9
degrees). Good for road hugging - bad for tire life. I hope this helps. Robert M.

--------------------
Subject: Re: 12 inch wheels
Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <EV600-L@TCU.EDU>
In-Reply-To: <3F7AF187.3FA2A3AE@bull.com>
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

Mike when I got my Bus the range was also about 20 miles. I had several
problems. Dragging brakes , bad rear wheel bearings and alignment. I easily
doubled the range doing a 4 wheel alignment. With everything fixed I can easily
make the ride to work and back. 44 miles round trip. But I almost always charge
at work. Oh one more thing, when you do the alignment set everything to 0. Do
not use the settings in the book. They are fine with a gas motor in the rear but
with ours the weight is in the center. Rob.

---------

>Is the camber causing tire wear?
> Yes! I only get 4000 klm on rear tires. Only toe is adjustable
on the rear. The manual calls for +1 to 3 degrees camber. My camber
gauge reads to 6 degrees and I am off the scale I bought a set of rear
control arms but they did not help. I am having some angle shims made to
install between the rear axial housing and the control arms. This should
fix the problem. Rob.

------

--
Sender: Jet Electravan EV600 Owners List <EV600-L@listserv.tcu.edu>
From: "Michael A. Radtke" <m.radtke@ELM.AZ05.BULL.COM>
Subject: Camber (was: My Avon Tyres]
Comments: To: "EV600-L@TCU.EDU" <EV600-L@TCU.EDU>

Rob, In the process of replacing my tires, I aligned the front end and set the
ride height (posture). I found the car quite low and after I set the new height,
it looks like the rear has excessive camber. However, the height is in spec now.
(I found the 145R10's 1/2 inch lower than the 500X10's, so I reduced the target
posture heights by 1/2). I expect that the rear camber is supposed to be that way
since I don't think that its adjustable. Is the camber causing tire wear? Mike
---------- From: Mike Radtke[SMTP:michael.radtke@bull.com] Sent: Monday, January
29, 2001 7:12 AM Subject: [Fwd: Re: My Avon Tyres] -------- Original Message
-------- Subject: Re: My Avon Tyres Date: Fri, 26 Jan 2001 19:11:37 -0500 From:
Rob Vasichek <oleoranch@AAAHAWK.COM> Reply-To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600
Owners List <EV600-L@TCU.EDU> To: EV600-L@TCU.EDU William how many kilometers do
you have on the Avon tires? Also dose anyone have a problem with excessive camber
on the rear wheels? Rob. __snip
-------
>

-
Forgot to mention, on the tire balancing thing, half the weights go on the inside
of the rim and half on the outside. The weights, you salvage off your old wheels.
Pry them off with pliers grabbing the weight from the tire side, pinch them back
together a bit and they will grip like new. Tap them back on with a hammer.

IP: Logged
6PIN
Member

Posts: 804
From:L.B., N.J.,U.S.A.
Registered: Apr 2001
posted 05-20-2004 06:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 6PIN
Click Here to Email 6PIN Edit/Delete Message Good tips, Fargo.
Another possible way to balance: On a car with front drums, back off the brake
adjustment on one front side and use that corner of the car as your "balancer".
Spin the wheel, mark the bottom when it comes to rest. Give it a best of three
spins. Bottom will be your heavier side, weight goes opposite. Keep working up
till you have no definite heavy side. Readjust brake.

If a tire won't take air because the bead doesn't "seat" on the rim, put a rope
around the outside of the tread, twist it tight with your tire iron, then air up.
This well expand the bead enough to seat it.

------------------------------------
----------------------------

From: Rob Vasichek <oleoranch@AAAHAWK.COM>
Subject: Wheel Alignment
Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <EV600-L@TCU.EDU>
In-Reply-To: <3F7C4FC3.5E6F4D24@bull.com>
Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1"

Mike I did do the alignment my self, but I am a mechanic and did the job at
work on a Rotary 4 Laser Alignment rack. I do not think you can set the rear
toe or camber by eye.
t 09:18 AM 10/2/03 -0700, you wrote:
>Rob,
>
>Please read the note I posted about Bill's post.
>
>>I easily doubled the range doing a 4 wheel alignment.
>
>OK, so how do I do that? Did you do it yourself? Care to write up a
>procedure for us?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Mike

---------

Rob,

Wheel alignment shops seem not be interested in working on an
ElectraVan. I have tried to find one, but only seriously enough to give
up after a lot of turn downs. Do you have any advice on how to find a
place?
--

>

>This will be a
problem. You need to find someone who is Pro
EV. The ElectraVan is a hard alignment to do
right. Maybe someone on the EV list knows a mechanic in
you area.
Rob.

----
From: "Michael A. Radtke" <michael.radtke@BULL.COM>
Subject: Wheel Alignment
Comments: To: EV600-L@tcu.edu
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Hello, Well, I gave up on getting someone else to align my wheels. I built a
little jig out of wire to assist me with the process. I found that the front
wheels were very good and couldn't be improved, but the rears were extremely bad.
I haven't been able to quantify the reduced rolling resistance after I completed
the alignment though. It appears less to me, but that's what I want to observe. It
is probably time to buy the new batteries. Thanks for listening, Mike

--

From: "Michael A. Radtke" <michael.radtke@BULL.COM>
Subject: Re: Wheel Alignment
Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <EV600-L@tcu.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Hello Bill, I am at work. My manual is at home. My memory is poor. Thus, I don't
have a lot of good numbers for you, but here goes: >How far out were the rear
wheels ? Toe in is measured in distance. Since I was shooting for zero, I didn't
attempt to make my jig give numbers for comparison to the specification. My
measurements were about 15 inches in front of and 15 inches behind the axle. At
that point of measurement, there was about 3/4 inch toe in. >How did you adjust
the rear suspension ? I assume that you mean how did I set the rear toe in. There
is an arm on each side of the car that goes from a rear wheel forward on a
diagonal toward the center of the car. Just in front of the torsion bar housing
these arms terminate with a rubber donut joint to a bracket. Each bracket, in
turn, is bolted to the frame with a pair of bolts. Between the bracket and the
frame there are shims that look something like the letter E. The bracket mounting
bolts can be loosened and the E shaped shims inserted or removed. Just don't take
the bolts all the way out. There are large forces at work. The book says the the
shims come in 3 sizes and to match the left and right stacks. I think 0.4, 0.6,
and 1.2 mm. I found my car had 4 1.2 mm shims on each side. I guessed and removed
3 from both. On driving the car between measurements, I now get 0 + 1/32 to 0 -
2/32 inch on my personal scale. >How much did you reduce amps at say 35 mph by
doing the wheel alignment ? That's a tough question. You know from my other posts
that I am uncomfortable with my current measurements. Not only might they be
wrong, but they might be unstable. My wild guess is that I am about 40 amperes
less at 35 mph than before the alignment. That may be wishful thinking though.
>What does your alignment jig look like ? Time for ascii art: a /__ / e / / c \ /
/ O / / \ / __/ \ / / \ / b \ / O / \ d / / / / / / / f 1) I bent this up out of
heavy wire with soldered joints. There is no load on the jig when in use so it is
OK for it to be delicate. 2) The short segments at "a" and "b" that rest against
the rim must be parallel. This is easily set by resting the jig on a flat surface.
The jig can be checked while in use by sliding it to the left and right while in
use to be sure that the pointers don't change position. 3) There should be a
single point of contact at "d." I rounded this wire end to a ball. 4) Wire ends
"e" and "f" should be sharpened since they are pointers. 5) The "c-d" "a-b" wire
junction should be at axle height. 6) The short wire segments at "a" and "b"
should be about 10 inches apart so they rest on the rim and can be moved sideways
enough to prove that they are not resting on the tire. 7) I made my wire "e-f"
about 30 inches long. The jig is used by leaning it up against the rim with wire
"c-d" vertical and the wire segments at "a" and "b" leaning on the rim, not the
tire. When everything is in equilibrium, the pointers at "e" and "f" should just
clear the pavement. The pointers should be bouncing about a bit if everything is
OK. The position of each pointer may be marked on a piece of tape stuck to the
pavement. The jig is then carefully moved to the other side of the car and the
measurement repeated. Errors in the jig geometry will cancel except for lack of
parallelism of the short segments at "a" and "b" and any damage that might be
inflicted on the jig between the first and second measurements. The distance
between the marks may then be used to compute the toe in. I found that the
measurements were repeatable to better than 1/32 inch if the car was not
disturbed. The front readings were far less stable between drives than the rear,
but that is to be expected. Mike

-

---------------------------------
Mike my Bus
is also 102 volts. I think all this discussion
about alignment, bearings, tires etc in regard to range is missing the
point. Our vans are about the same. On mine
at 40 mph I am using about 190 amps and can go about 45 miles to
80%DOD. You are only using 180 amps at 40 mph and
can only go 20 miles. I think you have bad batteries
and that they were bad when you got them. BTW high
battery temperature improves range but shortens battery
life.
Rob
At 07:31 AM 10/6/03 -0700, you wrote:

>Rob,

>

>My van is mostly original. 102 volts.

------------------

==========================

Leave the rear alone, assuming you can even adjust it. Often there is a lot of
negative camber and a bit of toe in. The front can usually be adjusted a lot. If
you leave the caster alone (assuming that is adjustable, and it may not be) then 0
camber and 0 toe should roll well. A slight toe out is dynamically unstable but
the torque caused by tire patch thrust about the lower control arm elastomer
bushings should go a bit toe in, resulting in 0 toe. Might be twitchy on the
brakes that way as you get more toe out. This is as much a feel thing as anything,
espcailly in ruts on the excuses you guys have for road surfaces out West with
very friable asphalt with coarse stone.

Seth
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
EMERGENCY BRAKE
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

------------------------------------------

From: Robb Zuk <robb@ISLANDNET.COM>
Subject: Dragging Brakes on ElectraVan
Comments: To: EV@SJSUVM1.SJSU.EDU, ev600-l@tcu.edu

Range dropped, left rear brake drum was hotter than the others ==> dragging brake
Turned out to be a seized emergency brake actuating lever (emergency brake cable
ends here and the lever pokes inside the brake assembly through the backing
plate). The lever is in two pieces that need to move freely against each other --
They didn't. Robb Zuk

-------------------------------------------
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
BEARINGS
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

--------------------------------------------------

From: Jerry STUBBS <stubbs@EECS.UKANS.EDU>
Subject: Re: ElecraVan 600 Bearings & Seals
Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <EV600-L@TCU.EDU>
In-Reply-To: <19990203.171037.6934.0.billglic@juno.com>
Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

>Has anyone changed the inner and outer wheel bearings and seals on front >and
rear wheels of a Jet Industries ElectraVan 600 ? I have a 1979 >ElectraVan 600 and
would like to purchase replacement bearings and seals >before removing the
original bearings and seals from the wheels. Let us know how it goes. I intend to
do at least one of my front wheels, but I;m sure they would all benefit from clean
grease. I think they are pretty typical automotive design, but the rears might be
a bit easier than on full sized cars. JErry Stubbs

--

Subject: Re: ElecraVan 600 Bearings & Seals
Comments: To: EV600-L -- Jet ElectraVan 600 Owners List <EV600-L@TCU.EDU>,
William Glickman <billglic@JUNO.COM>
In-Reply-To: <19990203.171037.6934.0.billglic@juno.com>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Hi Bill, On my 1980 Electravans, the bearing numbers are as follows: Front Outer:
NACHI E 30204J R Front Inner: NTN 4T 30205 Front Seal: B8 SD 38 55 8-3 or B12 SD
38 55 8-3 I don't have the rear numbers yet... will be checking them soon. Please
let me know any differences you find so I can add them to our part number (and
equivalents) database that I'm building. Robb Zuk

I believe they are generic bearings -- Go to any commercial
bearing supply outlet (usually a better deal) or auto parts place
and they should be able to use the numbers directly or at least
cross-reference them to the brand names they deal in.

Robb Zuk

Robb originally wrote:
>>On my 1980 Electravans, the bearing numbers are as follows:
>>
>>Front Outer: NACHI E 30204J R
>>Front Inner: NTN 4T 30205
>>Front Seal: B8 SD 38 55 8-3 or B12 SD 38 55 8-3
---

------------------------
Subject: Re: 12 inch wheels
Comments: To: EV600-L@TCU.EDU
Content-Type: text/plain

Hi Mike, I think they stopped making the EV137s and renamed them EV125s. Did you
change both inner and outer wheel bearings ? My right front tire get hot and I
suspect the inner wheel bearings, but have not had time to investigate. The right
rear tire exploded one day several years ago when the vehicle came to a stop in
front of my house, after being towed, because the hardened steel splined axle was
grinding away at the mating splined iron hub in the wheel and there was no more
additional cooling from the wind as the van was no longer being towed. I bought a
replacement wheel and the splined steel axle was not damaged. I also happened to
have a fifth Avon 145RC10 steel belted radial as a spare tire, so all I need is a
new spare whenever I finally get the Van back on the road, but I might invest in a
new set of Falkens if it will improve range or load capacity and certainly get a
new wheel alignment after checking the inner and outer wheel bearings on all four
wheels. Menlo Park III, Glastonbury,CT Bill On Thu, 2 Oct 2003 09:18:01 -0700
"Michael A. Radtke" <michael.radtke@BULL.COM> writes: > Bill, > > Nice to hear
from you again. I expected to since you speak up > whenever > I whine about my
ElectraVan's rolling resistance. I don't remember > if I > ever addressed each
specific item so I am going to this time. I > figure > by writing about it I will
be forced to think about each item and > perhaps get somewhere. > > >I can move
the van by just leaning on it when the transmission is > in neutral. > > That's
what I'd expect. Not so mine. > > >I had 18 Douglas (made by Trojan) EV137
(equivalent to T125s) > > From the Douglas web site I see that an EV-125 equals a
Trojan T-125 > and > an EV-145 equals a Trojan T-145. EV137?

---------------

Hi Everyone, The front bearings for your van are the same bearings used on the
REAR wheels of a 2WD Subaru Justy. Easily available. I am in process of parting
out an '88 Justy and am finding many common parts. The plan is to get the brakes
and wheels from the Justy onto the van. I'm progressing very slowly but will keep
the list posted on how it turns out. Robert M.

--
Hello Bill,

I did change them. I just took them to my local independent auto parts
store and they matched them.

Sorry I do not have numbers handy.

Ken Huck
kenhuck AT jps DOT net
------------

Hi,

I purchased the 1980 Electravan that was on Ebay back in May. It's in good
condition overall and has been fun to drive so far. The biggest challenge
right now is to inspect/repair/replace the brakes and possibly the wheel
bearings and/or other parts.
The right front wheel is heating up most. Today the outer face of the wheel
was scorching hot to the touch after less then 1 mile travel. The left rear
wheel is the coolest running of the 4 and was not even warm after this
distance.

What is generating the heat and how much heat is normal? Is it just the
application of the brakes or would faulty wheel bearings be another cause

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
RIMS
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

=======================================
RE: Cracked Rim (he uses 55psi Avons)

Hello Bill,

Nice to hear from you.

To answer your questions:

- Not overloaded, but with the batteries it is always heavily
loaded.
- No corrosion at all on the rims. I live in Phoenix.
- The crack formed at one of the clamp bolts, not at a lug.
And, the lugs have always been hand tightened and can be
removed by hand using the original short wrench.
- I didn't hit anything.

However, I have more information for you.

First, I have had rim clamp bolts break. In the last 4 years, I have
had about 4 of them break while driving. I know when it happens because
the outside half of the bolt is captive in the wheel cover and makes a
lot of noise when it rattles around. Until Monday, only original bolts
broke, never replacement ones. Monday, it was one of the replacements.

So, here is what happened. Just as I got to work the bolt broke. I
chose to drive the car home (10 miles) after work since previous
experience indicated there was no problem in doing that. I did keep my
maximum speed below 35 mph. About 9 miles into the trip home, I sensed
the tire going flat. However, it lasted long enough to make it home
with air to spare.

I still hadn't made any connection between the broken bolt and the
flat. Not until I was breaking the bead did I spot the cracks in the
rim. Between the cracks and the missing bolt, the rim had separated
enough to allow the inner tube to squirt into the gap with the expected
results. However, I am still confused about the cracking. This is what
I found:

The major crack is a semi-circle concentric with the bolt hole. It
almost looks like a washer. As might be expected, the part that didn't
crack is toward the center of the wheel. There are a few radial cracks
leading from the main crack going in the direction of the tire. These
cracks allowed the rim to bend enough to damage the tube. Only one of
the rim pieces appears cracked.

So, the crack does not imply that the bolt was loose. As luck would
have it, I was able to recover both halves of the bolt. From the
position of the nut, there is no indication that the bolt was loose.
The sides of the bolt don't appear worn. It has a rather clean break as
if it were broken by stretching. If the cracks were relieving the
stress already, why was the first sign of trouble the bolt breaking?

It leaves me rather uneasy about the condition of all of the rims.

I'll post again when I get some information about replacements. I have
two leads so far. I have been trying to reach Jim Turner, the
father-in-law of Nolan Scheid (thanks) who posted earlier. I also ran
across a Subaru racing chick, who works in a Subaru parts department,
likes Subaru 360s, and offers to get OEM parts for them from Japan.

Thanks,
Mike

=---------------------
michael.radtke@BULL.COM

For my first set of tires, I imported some Avon radials from the UK.
These tires rode rougher and had a heavier steering effort than the
original bias ply tires but stuck to the road like glue. They cost
nearly $100 each after shipping. They didn't last long. I went back to
bias ply for the second set of tires. I found some Chinese Cheng Shin
for less than 1/2 the price of the Avons and they were in stock in
Denver. I prefer them to the radials mostly because they start to slip
gradually under stress instead of suddenly breaking loose like the
radials. In summary, I am happy with 10 inch tires.

The braking is another issue. I'm pretty sure that the stock gas
powered van has adequate braking. The ElectraVan does not. But the
issue is not about the braking ability, but rather about the pedal
pressure. Over the years, I have had a few emergencies where I have
locked the brakes. But then, I am used to the high pedal pressure. A
new driver of the van has serious safety issues. What the ElectraVan
needs, are not bigger brake drums, but rather, a power assist.
Unfortunately, there is no engine vacuum and no space around the master
cylinder.
Thanks,
Mike
------------------------------
Hello,

After buying 2, I now know that Subaru 360 van rims are wrong for my
ElectraVan.

I am once again in the market for a couple of ElectraVan rims. Any
suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Mike

-
Lawrence,

Been there done that.

In talking to them, I was convinced that the 360 van rims would fit.
They have both ElectraVan and Sambar 600 owners in the club. So, I
bought a couple of wheels for a 360 van. It turns out that they were
1/2 inch narrower. I could live with that. However, they were also
made of thinner steel. Since my genuine wheel failed due to fatigue, I
couldn't live with that. So, I am looking again.

Thanks for your thoughts,
Mike

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: Wanted: ElectraVan Wheels

------------------