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Hi Kathie,

I am very happy that the discussion on the forum is moving the direction that it is.
Biblical doctrines can be settled Biblically.

Your post says that the 457 decree spoke neither of the rebuilding of Jerusalem or the
temple. And this is an example of one of the assumptions on which the SDA position
stands or falls.

If this is a fair sampling of the quality of the assumptions, then I am comforted already.
Please feel free to poke at it as hard as the Bible warrants. Your first statement about it is
devastating. The restoring of Jerusalem certainly would involve the restoration of the
temple that was, to the mind of the king, the center of the city’s existence. It certainly
would be mentioned in a “commandment to restore and rebuild Jerusalem.” If your
statement holds, then the 457 date is out the window. I admit it.

The 457 decree is found in Ezra 7:12-28. Here are relevant selections. Let the reader
judge whether the decree mentions the rebuilding of the temple or the restoration of
Jerusalem’s government, educational system, autonomy (in reference to tribute), religious

“the silver and gold, which the king. . .offered unto the God of Israel, whose habitation is
in Jerusalem; And all the silver and gold that thou canst find in all the province of
Babylon . . . for the house of [the Jew’s] God which is in Jerusalem: That thou mayest
buy speedily with this money bullocks, rams, lambs, with their meat offerings and their
drink offerings, and offer them upon the altar of the house of your God which is in
Jerusalem. . . .The vessels also that are given thee for the service of the house of thy God,
those deliver thou before the God of Jerusalem. . . .And whatsoever more shall be needful
for the house of thy God, which thou shalt have occasion to bestow, bestow it out of the
king’s treasure house. . . whatsoever Ezra . . . shall require of you, it be done speedily,
Unto an hundred talents of silver . . .Whatsoever is commanded by the God of heaven, let
it be diligently done for the house of the God of heaven: for why should there be wrath
against the realm of the king and his sons? Also we certify you, that touching any of the
priests and Levites, singers, porters, Nethinims, or ministers of this house of God . . .
And thou, Ezra, after the wisdom of thy God, that is in thine hand, set magistrates and
judges, which may judge all the people that are beyond the river . . . and teach ye them
that know [the laws of God] not. And whosoever will not do the law of thy God, and the
law of the king, let judgment be executed speedily upon him, whether it be unto death, or
to banishment, or to confiscation of goods, or to imprisonment.”

Would you still maintain, Katie, that it doesn’t mention the building of the temple or the
restoration of the temple services or of the government and religious program of the city

Hi Katie,

The early Adventists that, prior to October 22, 1844, were involved in the 7th month
movement always referred to it by that name. The 10th day of the 7th month was what
could be established from the Bible. The year for the Ezra 7 decree could be established
by 20 eclipses that established the date 457.

For the reckoning of the Jewish year they appealed to Jewish authorities. They weighed
the varying views of the varied authorities and followed those authorities that were most
cogent. Neither you nor I are more qualified by Biblical knowledge to weigh the differing
opinions of Jewish scholars than those men.

For evidence of the extent to which they made chronology a science, see Sacred
Chronology by S. Bliss (reprints available from Leaves of Autumn.) They left nothing to
chance and hyper-validated their time references.

Blessings to you,



QUESTION: How can the sanctuary be desolate and fully operational at the same time? Daniel
8 has it desolate, and Daniel 9 has it restored.

ANSWER: Again, a crushing argument. Truly, how could we say that the sanctuary is desolate
for 2300 years and then say those years begin when it is restored? Very perplexing, the
question, very perplexing.

But, Kathie, the problem with the question is that Daniel 8 isn’t the chapter where the
sanctuary is said to be desolate. That is Daniel 9:17. It is part of the prayer of Daniel about
the sanctuary in Jerusalem that was not yet restored. Then the vision of Daniel 9 made
reference to its restoration.

In short, the question is meaningless. Raymond’s comment, that you quote, that the
sanctuary is “said to be desolate” is quoting neither the Bible nor Adventism when he said
“said” unless he is referring to Daniel 9:17…and that is senseless.

And you say that it is for “this reason” that you deny the correlation of the 2300 days and the
490 years? But what about these questions:

Gabriel was commanded to make Daniel understand the vision. Did he succeed by the end of
Daniel 8? (hint: v. 27.)

Did Gabriel ever appear to Daniel again? (hint: 9:21)

Was he coming to give Daniel understanding? (hint 9:22).

What part of Daniel 8 had not yet been explained in chapter 8? The ram, the goat, the
trampling, the host—these have all been explained.

Did Gabriel make a reference to a vision before proceeding to a further explanation? (hint:
Did the 2300 days have a beginning event marked in chapter 8?

Gabriel immediately proceeded to say that 70 weeks were cut off as special to Daniel’s people.
Kathie, you know that I am just reviewing the standard position of Adventism that connects
these two chapters. It is ironic that they are hard to understand when they are so thoroughly
explained. The latter explanation of the 70 weeks was, among other things, to “seal up the
vision.” Which vision?

And against these, and other connections that you must have reviewed when studying the
Adventist position, you have weighed Raymond’s argument above and judged in favor of it?

Not I.

Blessings to you,


Lu 22:18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God
shall come.
Lu 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
Lu 22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging
the twelve tribes of Israel.


Oh, Kathie, I forgot…

You mentioned an argument based on the “last end of the indignation.” If I understood you
correctly, you were saying that the fact that the vision is for the end of time is evidence
against beginning the 2300 days in the 5th century BC.

Think it through carefully. Is this also a good argument for refusing to believe that the vision
involves Medo-Persia of the same time period? The Ram means what? Or that it is reason to
deny that the vision refers to Greece, some 150 years later?

No, no. You wouldn’t say that. Your argument is rather evidence in favor of the SDA position.
The prophecy obviously begins in the days of Daniel. If it stretches to the latter end of the
indignation, the time period must be symbolic. And that would agree with the angel who said
the “time was long.”

More blessings to you,



Happy Sabbath, Kathie,

I was just lying in bed reviewing the day. When I came to the part about responding to your
posts, I remembered the issue of the month that the Millerites dated from.

You said they dated from April when they should have dated from March. You said they should
have come to September in that case. Here is the math that came to me on my pillow:

March plus one month = April

March plus two months = May
March plus four months = July
March plus six months = September
March plus seven months = October
Mid March plus seven months = Mid October
Mid March plus seven moths and ten days = Late October.

I confess that I don’t recall anything that I have read in the last ten years on this subject. But
where did you get the April idea from?

Blessings to you,


03722 Kaphar used only by Moses, Gen-Deu; “atone” “atonement”

02891 Taher including DoA.
06942 Qadash used only by Moses, Gen-Deu; “sanctified; sanctify”
03725 Kippur atonement

Thank you for your responses, Eugene. I will try to answer a lot of questions by making one good point.

There are two essential keys to understanding the time elements of the 2300 days.

1) Question: How long shall be the vision?

Answer: 2300 evenings/mornings----------Dan. 8:14
(This would be under a decade, not over
two millenniums as SDAs teach)

2) "At the time of the end shall be the vision" Dan. 8:17

SUMMARY: 2300 literal days, at the very end of time

If the 2300 days is only a short time span "in the latter time...when the transgressors are come to the full" Dan. 8:

The language of verses 23-24 is talking about Abaddon, the king of Rev. 9:11. This is the time of the apocalypse an

This solves a lot of problems!!! We don't have to figure out if it started with some decree in the time of Ezra. We do
later. Ezra and Artaxerxes didn't start it, and Ellen White and William Miller didn't end it. The 2300 days is future!

No time prophecy ended in 1844. Jesus went into the most holy place at the ascension, not in 1844.

Question: Who is the Ram? When does he rise up? Where does he rise up?

Hi Eugene! You asked, "The Ram means what?"

WHO: Daniel 8:20 clearly says that "the ram...having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

WHEN: The time frame is given in verses 17, 19, 23, and 26. "At the time of the end shall be the vision."

WHERE: Today the area of the ancient Medes and Persians is modern Iraq and Iran.

The 2300 "evening/morning" did not start in the days of Daniel. It will happen "In the LAST END of the
indignation...In the LATTER TIME of their kingdom WHEN THE TRANSGRESSORS ARE COME TO THE FULL...shut
thou up the vision for it shall be for MANY DAYS." Dan 8:23,26

A few chapters later, Daniel is told to "shut up the words and seal the book, even to the TIME OF THE END...Go
they way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the TIME OF THE END." Dan. 12:4,9

Trying to understand the 2300 in an earlier time frame is an exercise in futility and frustration because thing
don't fit perfectly. The future will show that everything fits precisely!!!

Stay tuned! Ram and He-goat battle coming up soon!


Hi Kathie,

I see. You are thorough-going futurist in regard to Daniel 8.

You see it as a coincidence, then, I suppose, that Greece follows Medo-Persia in Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 and Daniel 11

And it is a remarkable thing that Persia, from the East, pushed in just the right directions when conquoring the kno
power to conquor where he wills with no nation able to stand before him....

And if Medio-Persia are a coalition of Iran and Iraq (??), the greater nation of Greece (Macedonia by the same reaso

But it must be a coincidence that the goat of Daniel 8 comes from the West, as Alexander did, and does flies, as the
horn that breaks and gives place to four horns---as Daniel 11 describes the fall of Alexander and the break-up of hi

Oh, Kathie, I need to go, but I so want to write more!

blessings to you,


Hi Kathie,

In my pre-day excitement my spelling and grammar suffered. Accept my apologies. It has

been a long time since I had a prophetic discussion with a thorough-going futurist. I went back
this morning and re-read the angel’s explanation of Daniel 8.

Gabriel passes by the activities of the Ram with hardly a word except to say that the Ram
represents the dual kingdom of the Medes and the Persians. In the vision (v. 3-4) these
kingdoms rose in order—the second kingdom becoming stronger. This happened in the case of
M-Persia. But maybe that is a coincidence.

The Ram pushes N and E and S and no nation or coalition formed against him is able to stop
him. This happened in the case of the MP. The nations of Babylon, Egypt and Lydia worked
together to oppose them. But they fell and became ribs in the mouth of the MP bear of Daniel
7. But maybe this fit is a coincidence.

The M-Persians of Daniel 7, after retiring from the scene of super-power, were allowed to
continue as a nation—but without world dominion. Daniel 7:12. So were the Grecians and the
Babylonians. But not so the Roman power. Daniel 7:10-11. When his power ends, he is
destroyed by a burning flame.

But your theory has two of these nations rising to greatness again.

The goat comes from the west and touches not the ground. He attacks the ram. Maybe it is
just circumstantial evidence, but the same angel that said that this ram is Greece also said
that the horn is the “first king” of that empire.

The first king of that empire did, indeed, come from the west and trample the M-Persians. But
maybe there is nothing to it…

Unlike the two monarchies before his, when Alex died his empire was divided into four
segments. Four horns came up as four heads were found on the leopard in Daniel 7. Daniel 11
says, interestingly:

And now will I shew thee the truth. Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and
the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir
up all against the realm of Grecia. And a mighty king shall stand up, that shall rule with great
dominion, and do according to his will. And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be
broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor
according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others
beside those. Dan 11:2-4.

But maybe the parallels to the four horns in Daniel 8 are not to be understood as being

That Greece had wings and was represented by a speedy animal in chapter 7 might not be
related to the Goat neglecting to touch the ground while running full bore at the ram.

That Alexander became very great—greater than the Persians before him—is known by school
boys. But perhaps that could be said of many men…

That his four generals formed nations N, E, S, and W of Palestine, and that from one of these
directions (W) came the Roman power, parallels the prophecy of Daniel 8:8-9. I won’t say
more about coincidence.

That the Roman power became greater than the Grecians (v. 8) is manifest. That the Romans
extended their empire into North Africa (S), Persia (E), and Canaan is apparent in history, and
even in Acts 2.

That the little horn of Daniel 7 has many of the same characteristics as the little horn of Daniel
8, and that both are blasphemous persecutors of God’s people—this is clear. And the Roman
power can not be said to have failed to fulfill these predictions.

That the Roman power killed Jesus and proceeded in its papal form to supplant him—this is
abundantly clear.

The angel’s explanation in Daniel 8 shows that the kingdom of Persia will be followed by a
Grecian empire with a succession of kings (v. 22) that will be weaker. In the “latter time of
their kingdom” the king of fierce countenance will rise. In other words, if you put these verses
in the future…the future is long indeed.
The parallel of Daniel 8 and 11 is remarkable. The latter chapter is such a clear explanation by
the angel of events beginning in Daniel’s day and extending to the end of the world that this
can not be misunderstood.

8:19 “For at the time appointed the end shall be”

11:6 “for yet the end shall be at the time appointed”
11:35 “even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.”

What did the angel mean in Daniel 8:17 when he said “for at the time of the end shall be the
vision.” In your view, if I understand you correctly, the angel meant that the entire vision will
be fulfilled in the time of the last generation.

The Adventist position is that the vision is written to be understood at the time of the end.

Do any passages, other than the numerous observations above, throw light on this question?

“But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many
shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.” 12:4

But more than this, and notice this carefully, Kathie, there is another time that an angel comes
to Daniel and tells him that he will show him what will befall his people in the “latter days.”

And it is the preface to the historical prophecy of Daniel 11 that extends to the end:

Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for
yet the vision is for many days. Da 10:14

That is no coincidence.

Blessings to you,


Ro 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences
contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. 16 Let his heart be changed
from man’s, and let a beast’s heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.