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DUNCAN FITZGERALD February 11, 2009

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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
EASTERN DISTRICT OF LOUISIANA

IN RE: KATRINA CANAL BREACHES CIVIL ACTION


CONSOLIDATED LITIGATION NO. 05-4182 K2
JUDGE DUVAL
PERTAINS TO: MRGO AND ROBINSON
(No. 06-2268)

Deposition of DUNCAN M. FITZGERALD,


PH.D., given at the Law Offices of the Joseph
M. Bruno, 855 Baronne Street, New Orleans,
Louisiana 70113, on February 11th, 2009.

REPORTED BY:
JOSEPH A. FAIRBANKS, JR., CCR, RPR
CERTIFIED COURT REPORTER #75005

JOHNS PENDLETON COURT REPORTERS 800 562-1285


DUNCAN FITZGERALD February 11, 2009
Page 2 Page 4
1 REPRESENTING THE PLAINTIFFS: 1 EXAMINATION INDEX
2 ELWOOD C. STEVENS, JR., APLC 2
3 (BY: ELWOOD C. STEVENS, JR., ESQUIRE) 3 EXAMINATION BY: PAGE
4 1205 Victor II Boulevard 4
5 Morgan City, Louisiana 70380 5 MS. MILLER .................................6
6 985-384-8611 6 MR. STEVENS ...............................276
7 - AND - 7 EXHIBIT INDEX
8 THE DUDENHEFER LAW FIRM, LLC 8
9 (BY: FRANK C. DUDENHEFER, JR., 9 EXHIBIT NO. PAGE
10 ESQUIRE) 10 Exhibit 1 ................................12
11 416 Gravier Street 11 Exhibit 2 ................................22
12 New Orleans, Louisiana 70130 12 Exhibit 3 ................................82
13 504-586-0000 13 Exhibit 4 ................................83
14 14 Exhibit 5 ................................84
15 REPRESENTING THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: 15 Exhibit 6 ................................86
16 UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, 16 Exhibit 7 ...............................111
17 TORTS BRANCH, CIVIL DIVISION 17 Exhibit 8 ...............................215
18 (BY: KARA MILLER, ESQUIRE) 18 Exhibit 9 ...............................269
19 (BY: SARAH SOJA, ESQUIRE) 19 Exhibit 10 ...............................271
20 P.O. Box 888 20 Exhibit 11 ...............................275
21 Benjamin Franklin Station 21
22 Washington, D.C. 20044 22
23 202-616-4289 23
24 24
25 25
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1 ALSO PRESENT: 1 STIPULATION
2 DAVID DYER, ESQ. 2 IT IS STIPULATED AND AGREED by and
3 TIANA CHRISTOPHER, ESQ. 3 among counsel for the parties hereto that the
4 JEFFREY D. KESSLER, ESQ. 4 deposition of the aforementioned witness may be
5 5 taken for all purposes permitted within the
6 PARTICIPATING VIA I-DEP: 6 Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, in accordance
7 RICHARD PAVLICK, ESQ. 7 with law, pursuant to notice;
8 ELWOOD STEVENS, ESQ. 8 That all formalities, save reading
9 NICK DIETZEN, ESQ. 9 and signing of the original transcript by the
10 ERIC GOLDBERG, ESQ. 10 deponent, are hereby specifically waived;
11 11 That all objections, save those as to
12 VIDEOGRAPHER: 12 the form of the question and the responsiveness
13 LORRI FABRE (HART VIDEO) 13 of the answer, are reserved until such time as
14 14 this deposition, or any part thereof, is used
15 15 or sought to be used in evidence.
16 16
17 17
18 18 * * *
19 19
20 20
21 21
22 22 JOSEPH A. FAIRBANKS, JR., CCR, RPR,
23 23 Certified Court Reporter in and for the State
24 24 of Louisiana, officiated in administering the
25 25 oath to the witness.

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JOHNS PENDLETON COURT REPORTERS 800 562-1285
DUNCAN FITZGERALD February 11, 2009
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1 DUNCAN M. FITZGERALD, PH.D., 1 A. By Boston University in the Earth
2 Department of Earth Sciences, Boston 2 Science Department.
3 University, 675 Commonwealth Avenue, Boston, MA 3 Q. And you've been retained by the
4 02215, a witness named in the above 4 plaintiffs to serve as an expert witness in
5 stipulation, having been first duly sworn, was 5 this case, is that right?
6 examined and testified on his oath as follows: 6 A. Yes, I have.
7 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER: 7 Q. And when did you first become involved
8 Q. Dr. FitzGerald, my name is Kara 8 in this case?
9 Miller. As I introduced myself already, I'm an 9 A. In March of last year. Shea Penland
10 attorney with the United States Department of 10 asked me to review some documents that he had
11 Justice representing the United States in the 11 put together for the case.
12 case Robinson versus United States pending in 12 Q. So March of 2008?
13 the Eastern District of Louisiana. 13 A. Yes.
14 Have you had your deposition taken 14 Q. And you were contacted by Shea
15 before? 15 Penland?
16 A. Yes, I have. 16 A. Yes.
17 Q. So you understand, then, that basic 17 Q. Do you recall what he asked you to
18 procedure which is that I will be asking you 18 review?
19 questions and you are under oath to fully and 19 A. It was a document that he had put
20 completely answer the questions? 20 together as it pertains to the wetlands, MRGO
21 A. Yes, I do. 21 and the basic historical account of what had
22 Q. If for some reason or for any reason 22 occurred. He also asked me to look at some
23 you do not understand my question or do not 23 ideas about funneling of storm surges. I think
24 hear the complete question you will let me know 24 that was the extent of what he asked me.
25 that? 25 Q. So he provided you a written document
Page 7 Page 9
1 A. I will. 1 about the historical account of the MRGO, is
2 Q. Okay. If not, I will assume you have 2 that right?
3 understood the questions. And because there's 3 A. Yes.
4 a written transcript being produced, please 4 Q. And did he provide you anything else
5 make sure to use oral responses rather than 5 in writing at that time?
6 nods or other gestures. 6 A. We talked about it over the phone.
7 Is there any reason that you are 7 Q. Was the --
8 unable to testify today? 8 A. We talked about it in person, as well.
9 A. No. 9 Q. Okay. Was the document he provide you
10 Q. You're not under any medication that 10 one of the expert reports that was produced in
11 would affect your ability to testify? 11 this litigation?
12 A. No. 12 A. Yes, it was.
13 Q. Okay. If for any reason as the 13 Q. And do you recall the date of that
14 deposition continues you yourself do not feel 14 report?
15 able to continue, you will let us know? 15 A. It was his first report, and I'm -- it
16 A. I will. 16 was this report, and I'm -- it was this report
17 Q. And if you need to take a break at any 17 here that's Expert Report of Shea Penland.
18 time, that's fine, just let us know. Generally 18 And, um -- it's dated here September 15th,
19 I'll ask that you answer whatever question is 19 2007, so, um -- when I said it was March of
20 pending before we take a break, but we can take 20 2008, it must have been March or May of 2007.
21 breaks as you need. 21 Q. Okay.
22 Would you state your full name, 22 A. Correction.
23 please? 23 Q. March or May, you said?
24 A. Duncan Martin FitzGerald. 24 A. Yes.
25 Q. And how are you currently employed? 25 Q. Sometimes in the springtime?

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JOHNS PENDLETON COURT REPORTERS 800 562-1285
DUNCAN FITZGERALD February 11, 2009
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1 A. Somewhere along there. Sometime 1 mark this as Exhibit 1. It's actually an
2 during the spring, yeah. 2 Amended Notice changing the date from
3 Q. So in the spring of 2007, did he give 3 January 30th which is when it was first noticed
4 you the document you have in front of you that 4 to today. Is that something you've seen
5 is the report dated September 15th, 2007, or 5 before?
6 did he give you a draft? 6 (Exhibit 1 was marked for
7 A. He gave me a draft report. 7 identification and is attached hereto.)
8 Q. And did you contribute to the -- or in 8 A. Yes.
9 what way did you contribute to the report dated 9 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER:
10 September 15th, 2007? 10 Q. And there is an attachment to that
11 A. I helped rewrite some sections, and I 11 called Exhibit A. Have you looked at that?
12 helped him a little bit with wordsmithing, 12 A. I guess I've seen this. I'm not sure.
13 putting it in easier-to-understand language. 13 Q. Is that the reason you brought the
14 At that particular time it was nothing 14 items that you brought with you today, or --
15 substantive. 15 A. I thought they might help me answer
16 Q. Do you recall what sections you helped 16 some of the questions you might ask me and I
17 to rewrite? 17 could use them to illustrate some of the point
18 A. Um -- no, it's just the whole 18 I wish to make.
19 document. 19 Q. Okay. I think that will turn out to
20 Q. You obviously brought that document 20 be the case. So I'd like to ask you a little
21 with you. Can you tell me what else you 21 bit more about some of the things you brought
22 brought with you today? 22 and your ultimate report in general, but you
23 A. Sure. I brought the Habitat Impacts 23 stated that as of 2007 you helped to wordsmith
24 of the Construction of the MRGO dated 24 some of the report prepared by Shea Penland
25 September -- I mean dated December, 1999. I 25 dated September 15th, 2007. What did your work
Page 11 Page 13
1 brought a list of data used to build our 1 on the case involve after September of 2007?
2 report. I brought a supplemental report to the 2 A. I was more involved with getting some
3 expert testimony or expert report by Day and 3 material for the funneling effect, the effects
4 Shaffer dated January 27, 2009. I brought some 4 of storms, what might have been known as a body
5 engineering plans that came from the design 5 of information prior to the construction of
6 memorandum. This is dated August, 1958. I 6 MRGO.
7 brought a diagram slowing the lobe switching of 7 Q. And where did you go to find that
8 the Mississippi River delta. That's a figure 8 information?
9 from Frazier, 1975. I brought some diagrams 9 A. Into the general literature and also
10 showing land loss. This was from Britsch and 10 into the shore protection manual. And the
11 Dunbar. I brought another copy, it seems, of 11 predecessor to the shore protection manual
12 the Day and Shaffer. Why that's there I don't 12 which is authored by the Army Corps of
13 know. 13 Engineers.
14 Q. A second copy of the supplemental 14 Q. Does that have the same title, shore
15 report? 15 protection manual?
16 A. Yes. It says old on it. It's mixed 16 A. The earlier version has a different
17 in with my stuff. 17 title.
18 I brought a listing of my invoices. 18 Q. Do you recall the date of the recent
19 And I have a pad of paper here that has our 19 version?
20 data sources in some detail from which we used 20 A. Um -- let me check the references.
21 to make the map, just because there's a lot of 21 Q. Sure.
22 dates there. It's a cheat sheet, if you will. 22 MR. STEVENS:
23 Q. Okay. Okay. 23 8.1? 8-1?
24 A. I guess maybe I'll begin by 24 A. Yes, there's -- it was originally
25 introducing your Notice of Deposition. I'll 25 called, um -- U.S. Army Corps of Engineers 1954

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JOHNS PENDLETON COURT REPORTERS 800 562-1285
DUNCAN FITZGERALD February 11, 2009
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1 Shore Protection Planning and Design. 1 were familiar with prior to working on this
2 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER: 2 case, or you located it just for this case?
3 Q. Okay. So that's what you referred to 3 A. I located it for this case, although I
4 as the predecessor? 4 know that Redfield had worked in this area and
5 A. Yes. 5 looked at storm surges and tides in the area of
6 Q. And then what is the more recent one 6 Narragansett Bay and Buzzards Bay.
7 you looked at? 7 Q. And what is your background in looking
8 A. It's called the Shore Protection 8 at storm surges and tides?
9 Manual. 9 A. That's something that all coastal
10 Q. And do you have the date of the recent 10 geologists look at. If they're looking at
11 one? 11 sediment transport processes along the coast,
12 A. I believe that's 1959, and then there 12 if they're looking at morphological changes,
13 was subsequent editions in '60, '61. I could 13 storms, major storms. And the processes that
14 be wrong about those exact dates, but those are 14 are caused by major storms are instruments of
15 approximately correct. 15 change, dramatic instruments of change. And so
16 Q. So you may have looked at as many as 16 one of the things that we look at are the
17 four versions of the Shore Protection Manual? 17 storms and the conditions that accompany those
18 A. Yes. 18 storms, such as storm surge, wave heights,
19 Q. But the only -- the '54 one is the 19 direction of the storm, things of that nature.
20 only one that's listed in your references, is 20 Q. And when you say that the processes
21 that right? 21 caused by storms -- I think you said are
22 A. Yes. 22 dramatic instances of change?
23 Q. Were you familiar with that manual 23 A. They can be dramatic instances of
24 prior to your being contacted by Shea Penland 24 change if the storm produces large storm surges
25 to work on this case? 25 and large wave heights. This is when we get
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1 A. Yes. Everybody -- every coastal 1 overwash, this is when we can have a breaching
2 geologist -- coastal engineer has that in their 2 of a barrier, this is when we get increased
3 bookshelf if they're of a certain vintage. 3 alongshore sediment transport. This is when
4 Q. What do you mean by a certain vintage? 4 channels can fill in, other channels can open.
5 Age? 5 All the processes are dramatically increased.
6 A. Right. A certain age. Correct. 6 The wave energy is much greater. Wave height
7 MR. STEVENS: 7 is proportional to -- or wave energy is
8 A certain degree of maturity. 8 proportional the H squared, so if you increase
9 MS. MILLER: 9 the height slightly you increase the energy
10 Making sure it wasn't some sort 10 dramatically.
11 of scientific title. 11 Q. The height of storm surge?
12 MR. STEVENS: 12 A. The height of the waves.
13 It is. It's very scientific. 13 Q. Height of waves. Okay.
14 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER: 14 A. But the storm surge is important
15 Q. All right. So you've referred to 15 because it allows the wave processes to occur
16 looking in the general literature regarding 16 higher up on that land form, such as when the
17 material for funnel effect. Do you know what 17 waves break during normal conditions along the
18 literature you looked at? 18 beach if it's a storm surge and the water
19 A. Yes. There were scientific journals 19 elevation is raised a couple of meters, it
20 and reports, um -- let me go to that page. 20 means the waves are no longer breaking along
21 Yeah, there was a paper by Redfield and Miller 21 the beach, they're breaking along the dunes or
22 published in 1957 called "Water Levels 22 over the dunes. So the storm surge is
23 Accompanying Atlantic Coast Hurricanes" in the 23 important.
24 Journal of Meteorological Monographs. 24 Q. So by processes, you mean things that
25 Q. Okay. So is that an article that you 25 occur naturally -- well, let me know if this

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JOHNS PENDLETON COURT REPORTERS 800 562-1285
DUNCAN FITZGERALD February 11, 2009
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1 isn't a correct understanding of what you said. 1 experiment that's been carried out by people
2 You referred to processes and you mentioned 2 who have NSF grants. Linda Degan, one of John
3 waves. And I gather that you meant these are 3 Day 's former students. And under that
4 things that naturally occur but during a storm 4 particular study we're looking at how the
5 they may be exaggerated? Is that right? 5 creeks and the creek banks are responding in
6 A. They may be increased, yes. 6 natural settings versus nutrient loading
7 Q. And by instances of change, what do 7 sediments. The nutrient loading sediments tend
8 you mean? 8 to increase the biomass above ground; at the
9 A. Morphological changes, 9 same instance they tend to accelerate the
10 sedimentological changes. Physical changes of 10 little microbes that are eating away at the
11 the character of the coast. 11 biomass below ground. So they tend to weaken
12 Q. How would you scribe your area of 12 the substrate and may be responsible for
13 expertise? 13 causing blocks of marsh to cave into the tidal
14 A. I'm a coastal geomorphologist. I have 14 creeks.
15 an expertise in coastal geomorphology, coastal 15 We're also again looking in that
16 processes and sedimentology. Coastal 16 particular area to increase flooding and
17 geomorphology is a study of the land forms and 17 draining of the marsh, we're following the
18 processes that affect them. Coastal processes 18 heads of creeks and noticing whether they're
19 are obviously the processes that occur along 19 enlarging from time.
20 the coasts, and sedimentology is the study of 20 In the Caernarvon area, we've done
21 sediments or transport deposition. 21 some geotechnical studies of how marshes have
22 Q. So in terms of your evaluation of 22 responded to hurricane shear.
23 storms, it relates to the impact that the 23 And in the Barataria area, we're
24 storms have on those areas, as you mentioned, 24 looking at how wetland loss is increasing tidal
25 land forms, sediment and the processes that 25 exchange through the inlets along Barataria
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1 influence those forms? 1 Bay, how that is in turn increasing the tidal
2 A. Those are the forms along the open 2 prisms, it's making larger holes for the water
3 coast. Storms can also influence backbarrier 3 to be exchanged as the tidal inlets and it's
4 and wetland regions. And I've studied those, 4 increasing the sand movement offshore.
5 as well. 5 Q. And you referred to we a number of
6 Q. And what have your studies of 6 times in describing those projects. Who else
7 backbarrier and wetland regions involved? 7 are you working with when you refer -- who do
8 A. I presently have three projects that 8 you mean when you say we?
9 we're doing with backbarrier surge. One of 9 A. My graduate students, my colleagues at
10 them we're doing in South Carolina. It 10 various universities.
11 concerns the Santee River Delta. And we're 11 Q. And what is your specific role in
12 looking at the incision of that marsh platform 12 these projects?
13 by tidal creeks. This incision is occurring -- 13 A. I tell my students I'm the ideas man.
14 our hypothesis is that it's occurring due to 14 But I'm the one that goes out, usually, and
15 accelerated sea level rise which is causing an 15 gets the money, develops the project, sets the
16 increased flooding and draining of that 16 agenda, determines the hypotheses, determines
17 surface, and to accommodate that increased 17 the field work that's going to be collecting
18 title prism, new creeks are developing. This 18 data in order to answer those scientific
19 might be the first manifestation of how creeks 19 questions.
20 or how marsh systems may respond to an 20 Q. And then you have other people working
21 acceleration of sea level rise. 21 with you to carry out the projects?
22 In Raleigh, Massachusetts, we're 22 A. Right. I have a post-doc, two Ph.D.s,
23 looking at the effects of changes in nutrients 23 two Master's students and a slough of
24 to areas. There's been some nutrient loading 24 undergraduates who work for us.
25 in some regions of the Raleigh marsh, it's an 25 Q. Before I get too far ahead of myself I

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JOHNS PENDLETON COURT REPORTERS 800 562-1285
DUNCAN FITZGERALD February 11, 2009
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1 guess, I just wanted to introduce -- you 1 I come down here. And I have sat on Ph.D.
2 brought with you today an updated CV; is that 2 committees. Mike Miner is a coauthor of this
3 right? 3 report. I was on his Ph.D. committee. I've
4 A. Yes. 4 also worked with several individuals down here
5 Q. So I'm marking this as Exhibit 2. 5 on various projects. I've given guest
6 This is what you provided today as 6 lectures. I've met with students frequently.
7 your current CV; is that correct? 7 I interact with colleagues. I was, um -- head
8 (Exhibit 2 was marked for 8 of the science program for Pontchartrain, a
9 identification and is attached hereto.) 9 restoration program. I've run field trips.
10 A. Yes. 10 I've done field work.
11 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER: 11 Q. What is the Pontchartrain restoration
12 Q. Okay. So the projects that you just 12 program?
13 referenced, are those listed on here? 13 A. Pontchartrain restoration program is
14 A. Yes, they are. 14 money that comes through -- it's an earmark.
15 Q. Okay. And are they listed under, you 15 Senator Vitter -- it's money that goes through
16 mentioned that you're responsible for getting 16 NOAA and comes to UNO and other area
17 money for them. Are these things that you've 17 universities to fund programs to look at
18 obtained grants to do? 18 scientific habitats, processes in the
19 A. Yes. 19 Pontchartrain Basin, as well as restoration and
20 Q. So they would be under the section on 20 educational programs.
21 research grants; is that right? 21 Q. Do you know when that program began?
22 A. Yes. 22 A. Um -- in the -- I want to say 2003,
23 Q. When you were initially contacted by 23 2004.
24 Shea Penland, did he explain anything to you 24 Q. And is that the time that you became
25 about what this litigation was about? 25 involved with it?
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1 A. Yes. 1 A. No, it was running a couple years
2 Q. And what did he tell you? 2 before I became involved in it.
3 A. He said it was a class action suit 3 Q. So you became involved around 2005?
4 against the Army Corps of Engineers, basically, 4 A. 2004, 2005.
5 for the -- due to the construction of the MRGO 5 Q. Prior to Hurricane Katrina?
6 which exacerbated the conditions during 6 A. Um -- right at the same time. After.
7 Hurricane Katrina which resulted in the 7 After Hurricane Katrina.
8 flooding of the Ninth Ward in St. Bernard 8 Q. So your involvement began after
9 Parish. 9 Hurricane Katrina, but the Pontchartrain
10 Q. And prior to being contacted by 10 restoration program itself had begun prior to
11 Dr. Penland, were you aware of this litigation? 11 the hurricane?
12 A. No. 12 A. I'd written a grant proposal with
13 Q. Were you familiar with the MRGO? 13 Ioannis Georgiou who's a professor in the earth
14 A. Yes. 14 environmental science program. We had written
15 Q. And how had you become familiar with 15 a grant proposal to do some work.
16 the MRGO? 16 Q. So you had written a proposal before
17 A. Well, I had been working with Shea and 17 Hurricane Katrina?
18 his colleagues here for ten years, and so -- 18 A. I'd written it in -- about a week
19 it's a major land form. You cannot work down 19 before Hurricane Katrina. I was aboard a boat
20 there without knowing something about MRGO. 20 with Shea Penland in Dutch Harbor.
21 Q. In your ten years of working in this 21 Q. And what was the proposal for?
22 area, could you describe what that's involved? 22 A. It was to look at, um -- the Violet
23 A. I came down here and taught -- I'm an 23 siphon and whether we could design a system
24 adjunct member of the University of New Orleans 24 such that more water could be pumped into the
25 Earth and Environmental Science Department, so 25 Lake Borne area to lower the salinities.

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1 Q. And is that a proposal that later 1 Q. So -- and at that time, had you -- the
2 received funding? 2 report that ended up being produced and dated
3 A. Yes. 3 July, 2008, at the time that Dr. Penland passed
4 Q. And are you currently working on that? 4 away, do you know whether he had prepared a
5 A. No, it's ended. 5 draft of what ultimately became the report with
6 Q. It's ended? And what were the results 6 your name on it?
7 of that project? 7 A. Yes. I saw a draft, um -- soon after
8 A. Well, I had a small role, but Ioannis 8 that.
9 did most of the hydrodynamic modeling and came 9 Q. Okay. And there was a -- or an
10 up with some parameters to show just how much 10 interim report, I believe, dated May -- April
11 the salinity could be reduced by increased 11 or May, 2008, that had your name on it. Was
12 pumping, or if the station were put back into 12 that the first draft that you --
13 operation. It has presently not been working. 13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And was anything implemented, to your 14 Q. -- saw? So it was around that time --
15 knowledge, pursuant to that? 15 A. That's the first draft I interacted
16 A. No. Not yet. 16 and became part of that report, yes.
17 Q. Could you describe what work you did 17 Q. Okay. And had you been working -- I
18 after your initial contact by Shea Penland and 18 understand from what you've said you had worked
19 providing some wordsmithing on the 2007 report? 19 with Dr. Penland on a number of projects in the
20 A. Yeah. I put together a report 20 area, but with respect to this report had you
21 concerning the funneling. Much of what's 21 been working basically on the initial drafts
22 contained in this document I was putting 22 prior to his passing away?
23 together at that time. 23 A. No.
24 Q. By this document, you're referring to 24 Q. And can you describe -- the other
25 your July 2008 report? 25 people named as authors of this report in
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1 A. Correct. It begins, um -- I can help 1 addition to Dr. Penland are Andrew Milanes,
2 you out there. 2 Mike Miner who you mentioned and Karen
3 Q. I think it's Page 7-1. Correct? 3 Westphal. Can you describe who those people
4 A. Correct. 4 are?
5 Q. So Section 7. You were responsible 5 A. Yes. Andrew is on my right here.
6 for putting that together? 6 He's a civil engineer. He's a, um --
7 A. Yes. I started gathering information, 7 geographical information system professional.
8 um -- concerning this. 8 He's been doing GIS for fifteen years -- more
9 Q. So you started gathering that 9 than fifteen years.
10 information in mid 2007, is that right? 10 Mike Miner is a, um -- coastal
11 A. Later -- later than that. It was some 11 geologist. He got his degree from UNO a couple
12 toward the end of 2007. 12 of years ago. He's now employed at UNO and has
13 Q. Okay. 13 been doing geological and delta studies at the
14 A. And then beginning of 2008. 14 university for a couple of years now.
15 Q. And at that time were you asked to do 15 And then Karen Westphal is a, um --
16 anything besides help with the wording of the 16 degree is actually in I want to say, um --
17 report and gathering the information on the 17 biology? I may be wrong. But she knows a
18 funneling? 18 great deal about plants, plant communities.
19 A. No. No, I was not. 19 Q. And do you know how she is -- what
20 Q. And at what time did your role 20 her -- is she employed by someone in the area?
21 increase? 21 A. She has been employed as a consultant
22 A. At the untimely death of my friend. 22 to Es2. She has also worked for the University
23 Q. So that was a year ago? Is that 23 for PIES, the Pontchartrain Institute of
24 right? 24 Environmental Studies, and presently she's
25 A. Yes. 25 working for somebody else. Um -- she's just

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DUNCAN FITZGERALD February 11, 2009
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1 gone to a new job and the name of that company 1 A. Yes.
2 and group escapes me. 2 Q. And who else was on that helicopter
3 Q. Okay. So Pontchartrain Institute of 3 ride?
4 Environmental Studies, that's part of the 4 A. Myself and Mike Miner.
5 University of New Orleans? 5 Q. And was there only one helicopter trip
6 A. Correct. 6 that you made as part of your work on this
7 Q. Okay. And Mr. Milanes I see is 7 report?
8 wearing an Es2 shirt. Does that mean he's 8 A. Yes.
9 employed by that company? 9 Q. And do you recall the date of that
10 A. Yes. 10 trip?
11 Q. And can you describe what each of 11 A. May.
12 those people, Mr. Milanes, Mr. Miner and 12 Q. May of 2008?
13 Ms. Westphal, what their role was in preparing 13 A. Yes. It could possibly have been
14 your report? 14 June.
15 A. Yes. Andrew did all of the 15 Q. And what is Karen Westphal 's
16 geographical information research. He got the 16 experience with aerial photography?
17 documents, put together maps, using those maps 17 A. She's videotaped, um -- the coast of
18 determined the different habitats, determined 18 Louisiana probably a dozen times. She's done a
19 the land loss, did all the statistics using 19 lot of aerial photography and is an expert in
20 GIS, and produced all the tables and graphs and 20 documenting environments and producing
21 pie charts within this document. 21 documents that display those types of
22 He was helped in that chore by Karen. 22 environments.
23 Karen was also responsible for getting 23 Q. Okay. As an expert witness for
24 photographs together, historical documentation 24 litigation, you mean, or --
25 of what the area looked like, and she was also 25 A. Just reports.
Page 31 Page 33
1 responsible for getting up in an airplane and 1 Q. -- just an expert --
2 taking pictures so that we could compare 2 A. Scientific studies.
3 today's environment to the historical setting. 3 Q. Okay. So did you take any video on
4 Q. So documenting what the area looked 4 that helicopter trip that you described?
5 like, do you mean present day or past? 5 A. No.
6 A. Well, she has two in there. There's 6 Q. You only took the still photographs
7 the sometimes during MRGO, sometimes prior to 7 that Karen Westphal took?
8 MRGO in an identical picture that was taken 8 A. Yes.
9 several months ago, taken as close as we could 9 Q. And do you recall how many photographs
10 get to that aerial perspective. 10 resulted from that trip?
11 Q. Okay. So Karen Westphal located 11 A. I took some photographs and they were
12 historical photography? Is that right? 12 lost.
13 A. Yes. 13 Q. What do you mean they were lost?
14 Q. And then she was involved with taking 14 A. They were lost in the exchange between
15 photographs herself-- 15 the camera and the computer. A button was
16 A. Yes. 16 pushed and they're gone.
17 Q. -- of what she determined to be the 17 Q. Did you ever have the opportunity to
18 same area? 18 look at --
19 A. Right. We rented a helicopter and 19 A. No.
20 went up there and could sit there right in 20 Q. -- the photographs?
21 space and make sure the two photographs 21 A. No. But they're the same ones that
22 compared well, and then she'd snap a few frames 22 Karen took, so it wasn't terribly
23 and then go to another location. 23 consequential.
24 Q. So she was the person with the camera, 24 Q. Do you know what kind of camera she
25 she did the actual photography? 25 was using?

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1 A. No. 1 group of photographs that she reviewed?
2 Q. And do you know how many photographs 2 A. I don't know.
3 she ended up with after that trip? 3 Q. You didn't ask her about that?
4 A. No. I mean, she was just up there 4 A. No.
5 shooting, like I was. So. 5 Q. Okay. So had the historical
6 Q. So it could have been a hundred or -- 6 photographs that she selected -- sorry. Had
7 A. I have no idea. Really. 7 she already made the selections of what to
8 Q. Did you review the photographs that 8 include in the report by the time that you
9 she took? 9 began working on this report?
10 A. I reviewed the ones that are in the 10 A. Most of the photographs I seem to
11 report. 11 remember were already in that May draft report,
12 Q. Was she responsible for selecting 12 but I could be wrong. I'd have to do a
13 which ones to include in the report? 13 comparison.
14 A. Yes. 14 Q. Okay. But you weren't, yourself,
15 Q. So you have no ability to estimate the 15 involved in choosing either --
16 total quantity of photographs she took? 16 A. No, I wasn't.
17 A. No. I really wasn't paying attention. 17 Q. -- the historical or the present
18 You know, I was shooting my own out the window, 18 day -- or relatively present day --
19 so -- 19 A. No, I wasn't.
20 Q. And then in terms of reviewing them, 20 Q. -- photographs?
21 you never looked at her whole set, you only 21 So what prompted your helicopter ride
22 reviewed the ones that she selected? 22 in 2008?
23 A. Right. 23 A. To go out and take photographs of the
24 Q. And do you know how she chose the ones 24 present day situation that we could see from
25 that she included in the report? 25 the historical photographs.
Page 35 Page 37
1 A. What -- I'm sorry. I didn't hear you. 1 Q. And why did you think that would be of
2 Q. Do you know what her reasoning was for 2 use in your report?
3 choosing the particular photographs -- 3 A. To compare previous conditions to
4 A. Yes. 4 present day setting, to get an understanding of
5 Q. -- included in the report? 5 the conditions of change.
6 A. Yes. We had the historical 6 Q. Did you also try to locate photographs
7 photographs and we wanted to compare the 7 from relatively recent time but prior to
8 historical conditions to the present day 8 Hurricane Katrina?
9 conditions. So that's how they were chosen, 9 A. I didn't locate any photographs, no.
10 the photograph that most closely depicted the 10 Q. Do you know whether anyone else
11 exact same landscape. 11 attempted to use photographs from, say, 2004,
12 Q. And you said that Karen Westphal also 12 2005, before Hurricane Katrina?
13 was responsible for selecting which historical 13 A. No.
14 photographs to include, is that right? 14 Q. Prior to the trip you took to
15 A. She did the historical, um -- research 15 photograph the area for this report, had you
16 to find out what photographs were available. 16 taken any other aerial flights over the MRGO
17 Q. Do you know what that research 17 region?
18 involved? 18 A. I've taken flights across this area
19 A. No, I don't. That was mostly done 19 somewhere between -- I don't know, more than a
20 before my association with the group. 20 dozen tiles, and I've flown through this area.
21 Q. Okay. Do you know what she ended up 21 Have I ever taken a photograph of the area?
22 locating? 22 Probably. Specifically for the purpose of this
23 A. Well, the photographs that were in the 23 case? No. I was just taking a photograph. So
24 report. 24 I've certainly flown over the area before, but,
25 Q. But were those selected from a larger 25 um -- the answer to your question is, no, not

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Page 38 Page 40
1 for this case. 1 located was through geophysical imaging using
2 Q. Okay. Well, I was asking more 2 ground penetrating radar. So we could see the
3 generally. Would those include just I guess 3 image of a channel, and then we took a series
4 helicopter flights as well as presumably 4 of sediment cores to define the bottom of that
5 commercial flights? 5 channel because it consisted of coarser grain
6 A. It was mostly fixed-wing. 6 sediment. And so we were able to show where
7 Q. But not with those, um -- like 7 that former inlet had been and where the
8 commuting flights, or they were specific to 8 property line was.
9 look at the wetlands? 9 Q. And do you recall the year that took
10 A. Not so much the wetlands. We were 10 place?
11 looking at the coast mostly when I took these 11 A. Um -- probably 2003, 2004.
12 flights, to look at the barriers and the 12 Q. Was that the most recent time that you
13 tidelands. 13 have served as an expert witness for
14 Q. Okay. 14 litigation?
15 A. But, you know, to get out there you 15 A. Yes.
16 have to go over the wetlands, so we certainly 16 Q. And do you recall how many times
17 were observing those areas. 17 you've served as an expert prior to that case?
18 Q. And when you took the flight in 2008 18 A. Um -- one, two, three -- probably a
19 for this, to take photographs for this case, 19 half dozen times.
20 what areas did you cover? Wetland areas. Land 20 Q. And the South Carolina case, you said
21 and water. 21 that involved testimony at trial as well as a
22 A. We went down and, um -- we started at, 22 deposition, is that right?
23 um -- the Intracoastal waterway, we went down 23 A. Yes.
24 MRGO. We spent most of our time looking at the 24 Q. And for the other cases, have you also
25 central wetlands as far down as Bayou La 25 testified at trials?
Page 39 Page 41
1 Loutre. Not too much further south. 1 A. Yes.
2 Q. And then did you basically return on 2 Q. So you maybe had testified at
3 the same route? 3 depositions and trials -- well, did you testify
4 A. Right. 4 at depositions for all of those cases, as well?
5 Q. Had you studied the central wetlands 5 A. No.
6 area prior to your work on this litigation? 6 Q. So about how many -- well, you may
7 A. No. Only peripherally in our study of 7 have already said, but how many times have you
8 Violet, but that was very, very narrow, and it 8 actually given depositions before?
9 was simple hydrodynamics, it wasn't looking at 9 A. It was taken at this trial that we had
10 anything else. 10 in South Carolina, and I think it was taken one
11 Q. You mentioned that you have taken 11 other time.
12 depositions before. Have you ever served as an 12 Q. And those were both in your
13 expert witness in litigation before? 13 professional capacity as an expert witness, is
14 A. Yes. 14 that right?
15 Q. And could you describe those -- was 15 A. Yes.
16 that more than one time? 16 Q. And how many times do you think you've
17 A. I've given testimony at trials in 17 given trial testimony?
18 several instances. They usually consist of 18 A. Four or five times.
19 barrier island tidal inlet litigation, 19 Q. And were any of those cases related to
20 ownership cases. The last one was -- took 20 anything involving the Louisiana coast?
21 place in Debidue Island in South Carolina. A 21 A. No.
22 property line was defined by the presence of a 22 Q. Did any of the cases for which you've
23 tidal inlet, and that tidal inlet could not be 23 served as an expert, have any of those involved
24 found today, it had filled in and turned into a 24 the Army Corps of Engineers?
25 dune system. And the only way it could be 25 A. No.

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1 Q. And do you recall whether any 1 Army Corps of Engineers. And so we decided
2 government agencies were involved in those 2 what other aspects of that geology should be
3 cases? 3 discussed.
4 A. It was the, um -- state attorney 4 One of the things that we talked about
5 general 's office whom I did some work for in 5 during that time was the loading by the
6 New Jersey. 6 protection levee and what influence that had on
7 Q. Otherwise, did they involved private 7 the navigation channel.
8 parties? Is that right? 8 Um -- we talked in some detailed about
9 A. Yes. 9 Breton Island. Breton Island hadn't been
10 Q. After Shea Penland's untimely death 10 really developed to any extent, and so we did a
11 what were you asked the do for this litigation? 11 lot of work looking at the dredging records for
12 A. I was asked if I could take over the 12 that region and how the footprint of Breton
13 lead. 13 Island had changed through time. We talked
14 Q. And what did you understand that to 14 about the best way to present all this
15 involve? 15 statistical information from the GIS analysis.
16 A. Take over the writing of the report, 16 That pretty well covers it.
17 the research, the, um -- the organization of 17 Q. So was your role more as a supervisor
18 our data, its presentation. And to some extent 18 of Andrew Milanes, Mike Miner and Karen
19 that was already on paper because we already 19 Westphal as they collected research?
20 had a rough graft, but a lot of rewriting, 20 A. I think I played both the role of a
21 adding new sections, things of that nature. 21 scientist doing active research and as an
22 Q. And you had said that prior to the 22 overseer. I oversaw the work of my fellow
23 initial -- well, prior to the rough draft that 23 authors and I also initiated work of my own.
24 was around April or May or 2008, your 24 Q. What research did you do of your own?
25 involvement at that point was still limited to 25 A. Well, Breton Island.
Page 43 Page 45
1 researching the funnel effect? 1 Q. Was there --
2 A. Right. 2 A. Breton Island and the funneling
3 Q. Once you took over the lead for the 3 effects were largely mine, although Mike Miner
4 report, did you do any additional investigation 4 supplied me with a great deal of information.
5 into the issues involved in the litigation? 5 And that had -- that topic had been part of the
6 A. I'm not sure I understand your 6 original draft report, but we made that a
7 question. 7 longer, um -- stronger document in my eyes.
8 Q. Did you -- what did you do to become 8 Q. And why did you decide to strengthen,
9 familiar with the remainder of the report at 9 as you put it, the section on Breton Island?
10 that time? 10 A. I thought there was -- we certainly
11 A. I sat down for two or three days with 11 needed to look at the dredging and how that
12 my coauthors and went through the entire report 12 influenced it, how that influenced the sediment
13 and came up with an outline. We redid the 13 supply to Breton Island, and we also needed to
14 table of contents, we decided what sections 14 more closely associate how the that's occurred
15 needed to be explained in more detail, who 15 to Breton Island to hurricanes, because there
16 would do what, things of that nature. 16 seemed to be some relationship between
17 Q. And did you determine that additional 17 hurricanes, as you would imagine, and the loss
18 research needed to be done at that point? 18 of shoreline and the footprint of the islands.
19 A. We did a few things, but most of the 19 So we needed to understand that process so we
20 data were already there. Um -- the geology had 20 could understand, in turn, how MRGO had also
21 already been largely done by Mike Miner. We 21 affected that area.
22 didn't talk about Mike Miner, but his role was 22 Q. What is the relationship between
23 to look at the geological framework of the 23 hurricanes and the islands that you mentioned?
24 region and explain that using cross-sections 24 A. Well, hurricanes, as we talked about
25 which were supplied from information from the 25 earlier, are very dramatic events in which

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Page 46 Page 48
1 large scale changes can occur. And shorelines 1 Q. I thought that was an obvious mixup.
2 erode during hurricanes due to storm surge and 2 So did you evaluate any of those
3 large waves. And that sand is transported 3 impacts that you just described for this
4 longshore and offshore. And following a period 4 report?
5 of co-essence after hurricanes, those islands 5 A. In detail, yes.
6 tend to rebuild from sand moving back onshore 6 Q. How did you evaluate the impact on
7 and being replenished from sand moving 7 surge and wave heights?
8 alongshore. 8 A. Well, what I looked at was not so much
9 Q. So the relationship that you were 9 the surge and impact, rather I looked at the
10 referring to was the change in the islands 10 category hurricane, it's track and the response
11 themselves because of the hurricanes, is that 11 of the barrier to that system, and then what
12 right? 12 happened in between major hurricanes to the
13 A. Looking in particular at, um -- Breton 13 barrier system, particularly its footprint.
14 Island and Grand Gosier Island, but looking at 14 I also analyzed in some detail how
15 the islands up and down. But mostly the 15 much sediment had been removed from the channel
16 southern portion of the Chandeleurs that 16 that's in close proximity to these islands I
17 surround the MRGO channel. 17 spoke of earlier, Breton Island and Grand
18 Q. So Breton Island is part of the 18 Gosier.
19 Chandeleur Islands? 19 Q. Is Grand Gosier Island --
20 A. Yes. 20 A. It's north of the channel and Breton
21 Q. And did you do any valuation of the 21 Island is south.
22 impact of islands on hurricanes? Or -- 22 Q. So Breton Island is the southernmost
23 A. Well, islands -- I'm not certain -- 23 of the Chandeleur Islands, is that right?
24 why don't you restate that. 24 A. Yes.
25 Q. Do you have an opinion on whether the 25 Q. And Grand Gosier is the next one?
Page 47 Page 49
1 islands themselves have an impact on 1 A. The penultimate one, yes.
2 hurricanes? 2 Q. I don't recall you including any
3 A. Oh, absolutely. They have a very 3 pictures of Grand Gosier Island in your report.
4 important impact. They're the first speed 4 Did you include diagrams of that?
5 bump. When a hurricane moves onshore, much of 5 A. Yeah. They're there. Yeah. Our
6 that energy can be diminished as it breaks 6 discussion of that starts on Page 3.1. And
7 along the outer islands, the barrier arc. 7 there's a diagram on Page 3.2 that show Grand
8 But -- so they have a very important effect. 8 Gosier Island and Breton Island. And the
9 They not only decrease the storm surge but they 9 southerly movement of sand that we refer to as
10 also decrease the wave heights. They diminish 10 alongshore sediment transport, the outline of
11 the impact of that hurricane on the interior 11 this region we call the ebb tidal Delta, this
12 wetlands and the amount of flooding that will 12 is the sand shoal that fronts the inlet between
13 occurred. So the barrier is a very important 13 Breton Island and Grand Gosier Island. And
14 part of the natural hurricane defense, and 14 this is the -- this inlet coincides with the
15 that's why it's so important that the 15 pathway of MRGO into Breton Sound from the open
16 hurricanes [sic] along Louisiana coast are 16 gulf.
17 rebuilt. 17 Q. Okay. Did your evaluations of the
18 Q. That the islands along the coast, you 18 acreage in your report relate only to the
19 mean, are rebuilt? 19 Breton Island changes? Is the right?
20 A. Yes. 20 A. Yes.
21 MR. STEVENS: 21 Q. And why did you not also evaluate the
22 You said hurricanes are rebuilt. 22 acreage changes of Grand Gosier Island?
23 A. I meant the barrier islands. I'm 23 A. Because the alongshore movement of
24 sorry. 24 sand is driven by the day-to-day wave energy in
25 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER: 25 the Gulf of Mexico, and the dominant alongshore

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1 transport of sand, that is, the movement of 1 apparently they were unfamiliar -- the
2 sand driven by these waves along the coast, 2 engineers were you were unfamiliar with this
3 along the southern half of the Chandeleur 3 channel. You can look at the bathymetry back
4 Islands is to the south. And so if we put a 4 in the 1900s and find evidence of this channel
5 channel south of an island it will not tend to 5 between what is today MRGO and Breton Island.
6 have a very strong impact, necessarily, on the 6 Q. And --
7 updrift barrier, in this case Grand Gosier 7 A. Recent work -- let's me just continue.
8 Island. Because MRGO deepened the tidal inlet 8 MR. DUDENHEFER:
9 between Grand Gosier and Breton Island it 9 Excuse me, counsel. Allow the
10 intercepted all the sediment that would 10 witness to finish without
11 naturally be driven southerly, in a southerly 11 interrupting, please. You're starting
12 direction, by the alongshore transport system 12 to do that, and I would loke to let
13 and eventually that sand pathway onto Breton 13 him finish the answer.
14 Island. That MRGO, in this area, from +2 to 14 MS. MILLER:
15 -6, -6.5, the mile markers I'm talking about 15 I just wanted him -- he
16 that go right through this inlet channel, 16 referenced this channel, and I wanted
17 109 million cubic meters -- 109 million cubic 17 to clarify, I think he was talking
18 meters -- that is the Superdome here filled 18 about a tidal channel, not the MRGO
19 thirty times, to give you some idea of how much 19 channel.
20 sediment was removed from that area. 20 MR. DUDENHEFER:
21 Q. And that statistic you're referring 21 Excuse me. Doctor, have you
22 to -- 22 finished with your answer?
23 A. Comes from -- 23 THE WITNESS:
24 Q. -- the entire existence of the MRGO 24 No.
25 time frame -- 25 A. No. The feeder channel I'm talking
Page 51 Page 53
1 A. Yes. 1 about is the marginal flood channel, and I can
2 Q. -- from initial construction to -- 2 show it on a picture here. And my point being
3 A. Eight million cubic meters were first 3 is that -- it doesn't show the feeder channel.
4 of all cut in this area to establish the 4 It shows the feeder berm on Page 3.4. And the
5 channel. And then another over 5 feeder berm is actually situated in a channel.
6 100 million cubic meters were dredged through 6 And this channel is evident in early 1900s,
7 maintenance dredging. Nine million of those 7 1920 or so bathymetry, and in a recent study
8 were put either on Breton Island or in a 8 that was done in cooperation with the Army
9 feeder, which is supposed to be an area 9 Corps of Engineers they have documented the
10 offshore of Breton Island in which normal wave 10 existence of this channel today. So somebody
11 activity would move that sand onshore. So nine 11 should have had the foresight to tell the
12 million cubic meters out of the hundred was put 12 people who were dredging not to put the sand in
13 toward, and I say -- when I emphasize was put 13 the channel.
14 toward Breton Island, because little of that 14 We know as geologists that these
15 sand actually got there. Unfortunately, a 15 channels are flood dominant, meaning that the
16 large quantity of sand that they intended to 16 flow of water in these channels moves in a
17 put on Breton Island they put offshore and it 17 landward direction. As that sand moves in a
18 was approximate to a feeder channel. So what 18 landward direction it's going refill MRGO. So
19 we really refer to as a marginal flood channel 19 it's not going to make its way onto Breton
20 which in this case feeds into MRGO. So it was 20 Island.
21 simply putting sand in a pathway that would be 21 So all the sediment that was coming
22 refilling MRGO. It was intended to put it in 22 down the southern portion of the Chandeleur
23 shallow enough water such that the wave energy 23 Islands was making it into the MRGO. By far
24 in that area would transport that sand back 24 the most -- largest portion of that sand was
25 onshore, but that wasn't the case. Because 25 being dumped far offshore where it could never

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1 make it back onshore to barriers, and the small 1 they hit. As I mentioned earlier, the storms
2 portion that, the 10 percent they tried to 2 are responsible for transporting sand offshore,
3 place on Breton Island never got there. 3 but then that sand moves back onshore and the
4 Now, there were some projects that 4 barrier is rebuilt, but somewhat in a landward
5 were done that filled breaches, and those are 5 position, and in this way the barriers are able
6 the projects in which sand was pumped all the 6 to preserve themselves. It's a natural
7 way to the island. That sort of dredging 7 mechanism of landward migration that the
8 procedure and pumping effort works well. What 8 barriers are able to reestablish themselves in
9 didn't work well in this case is pumping sand 9 a landward position and, thus, that sand is
10 near the barrier and putting it in a proximate 10 preserved in the barrier lithosome.
11 location or in the channel itself, into this 11 Q. Is it then your opinion that other
12 feeder channel that flows into the MRGO. 12 than Breton Island the remaining islands in the
13 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER: 13 Chandeleur chain have remained roughly the same
14 Q. And my reason for interrupting you 14 acreage of area?
15 before was that I think it would be helpful 15 A. No. I'm not contending that.
16 when you're speaking of channels, because the 16 Q. So all the islands have decreased --
17 MRGO obviously is the channel at issue in this 17 A. Yes, they indeed have.
18 litigation -- 18 Q. -- in size?
19 A. Right. 19 And for how long has that decrease in
20 Q. -- just try and be careful about -- 20 size been occurring?
21 A. Right, I will. 21 A. Since Hurricane Ivan. Isidore to a
22 Q. -- referring specifically to what 22 smaller extent, but starting with Hurricane
23 channel you're referencing. 23 Ivan, it was a Category 4 hurricane, and
24 A. Can we take a break for a second? 24 Katrina was a Category 4 hurricane and the
25 Q. Sure. 25 subsequent hurricanes of the last year were --
Page 55 Page 57
1 (Brief recess.) 1 impacted that shoreline, as well. We were out
2 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER: 2 there studying that shoreline.
3 Q. Dr. FitzGerald, we had been talking 3 Q. When did you begin studying that
4 about Breton Island and the Chandeleur Islands 4 shoreline?
5 in general. How would you describe the entire 5 A. I've been going to that shoreline
6 Chandeleur Island chain? 6 mostly during the last couple of years.
7 A. It's a barrier arc that formed during 7 Q. Were you studying the Chandeleur
8 the destructional phase of the St. Bernard 8 Islands prior to Hurricane Katrina?
9 Delta. And it's presently eroded like the 9 A. I was part of a study many, many years
10 dickens because of the several storms that have 10 ago, twenty years ago. Most recently, it's
11 occurred during the last several years, Ivan, 11 been since Hurricane Katrina.
12 Katrina, and the recent storms of last year. 12 Q. What was the study twenty years ago?
13 So it's in a very downgraded state presently. 13 A. Beach profiles. They put me at the
14 Q. So the entire chain -- 14 end of a steadier rod and I had to swim
15 A. Is in a downgraded state because of 15 offshore. And when I got back onshore they
16 the number of storms that have impacted that 16 told me there were sharks in the water and I
17 shoreline during the last several years, 17 should have watched out for those. I did that
18 starting with Ivan. 18 with Shea Penland, my Buddy.
19 Q. You mentioned the last several years. 19 Q. He sent you out with the sharks?
20 In your report you have a list of a number of 20 A. He did.
21 hurricanes from 1889 through Katrina in 2005. 21 Q. So did that study twenty years ago
22 Did those other hurricanes that you list there 22 involve historical evaluation of the chain of
23 also contribute to the degradation of the chain 23 islands?
24 of barrier islands in Breton Sound? 24 A. It was just looking at the short-term
25 A. They, um -- degraded the barriers when 25 impact of storms.

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1 Q. Okay. 1 rebuilt to its almost former extent.
2 A. Looking at before and after transects 2 And then beginning in 1958, you can
3 across the beach to show how much the dunes had 3 see that it was all downhill. And that
4 retreated, the beach had been eroded, the sand 4 coincided with the construction of MRGO. And
5 had moved offshore, that sort of thing, along 5 the same process I was discussing before the
6 specific sites on the Chandeleurs. 6 break in which the sand that normally nourishes
7 Q. What did you find from that 7 this barrier by moving southward by alongshore
8 evaluation? 8 sediment transports, that sediment supply was
9 A. Storms erode beaches and does cause a 9 cut off by the dredging -- the maintenance
10 scarping of the dunes. And, um -- the same 10 dredging that occurred in MRGO.
11 sort of processes that I've been describing 11 Q. Would the track of the hurricane
12 were found in that study to occur. 12 impact the extent to which the island acreage
13 Q. So you described, or you mentioned 13 has changed?
14 Hurricane Ivan as -- well, do you consider that 14 A. The category of the hurricane, the
15 sort of a turning point in the ability of the 15 speed of the hurricane, the truck of the
16 Chandeleur Islands to rebuild themselves? 16 hurricane, those are all important parameters
17 A. Well, anytime you have a close spacing 17 that determine the wave energy, the storm
18 temporally of storms they have a cumulative 18 surge, the duration of the storm, and how much
19 effect. The barrier is not able to rebuild and 19 sand is going to be moved and whether
20 produce a lithosome that's more capable of 20 overwashing is going to occur, the height of
21 absorbing some of the storm energy. So instead 21 the storm surge and so on.
22 of waves breaking on a beach, if the sand has 22 Q. So it's not just the existence or the
23 not moved onshore then the waves start breaking 23 occurrence of a hurricane, but the parameters
24 upon the marsh islands upon which these barrier 24 of the hurricane have a large impact on what
25 sands are anchored, and so they diminish in 25 the resulting impact on the islands will be?
Page 59 Page 61
1 size. So, yes, if a barrier does not have a 1 A. Yes. The category and the track in
2 chance to rebuild then it will diminish in 2 particular. And the speed.
3 size. But they will rebuild. 3 Q. So Hurricane Camille occurred in 1968,
4 Q. So then do I understand your 4 and you have it listed as a Category 5
5 explanation correctly that over time, as far 5 hurricane. That also happened in between your
6 back as you have on your chart on Page 3-10 -- 6 two data points on Figure 3.9 of 1958 and 1969;
7 you go back to 1889 and list a number of 7 is that right?
8 hurricanes over the years -- am I understanding 8 A. Correct.
9 you correctly that between 1889 and before 9 Q. Is it your opinion that Hurricane
10 Hurricane Ivan hit in 2004 that the acreage of 10 Camille would have impacted the size of Breton
11 the islands were fluctuating and they would 11 Island?
12 decrease with hurricanes and then rebuild to 12 A. Yes.
13 some extent? 13 Q. Incidentally, you have on Figure 3.9
14 A. Yes. Yes. As illustrated on Figure 14 certain data points, 1885, 1922, 1951, et
15 3-9 on Page 3-11. What we're seeing there is 15 cetera. Where did you get the information that
16 the acres, the footprint of Breton Island shown 16 you used to put together this graph?
17 through time. And even though it was impacted 17 A. I got it from PIES. I got it from the
18 by two storms in 1916, Category 3, which fairly 18 scientists at the Pontchartrain Institute of
19 good, close tracts to the Chandeleur Islands 19 Environmental Studies. They supplied me with
20 and Breton Island in particular, they rebuilt 20 those data.
21 to almost the exact same footprint that had 21 Q. And did they give you -- had they
22 occurred in 1885 by 1958 just prior to the 22 measured just those particular years that you
23 dredging of MRGO. So during that time, even 23 have listed here?
24 though we had the impact of the '47 hurricane 24 A. Yes.
25 and the 1916 hurricanes, the Breton Island had 25 Q. So someone with that group had

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1 measured the acreage of Breton Island in those 1 Q. You have one Category 4 hurricane in
2 individual years? 2 1979 and one tropical storm in 1985. I don't
3 A. The footprint, yes. 3 see exactly -- do you know why there was the
4 Q. Okay. Do you know how they made those 4 increase from '78 to '89?
5 measurements? 5 A. No, I do not. It was a slight
6 A. Using GIS. 6 deviation from the overall trend of vast
7 Q. So by digitizing historical 7 decrease in size.
8 photography or maps, or can you give us any 8 Q. So is it your opinion that it's
9 more information in that? 9 hurricanes and tropical storms that are the
10 A. I'm not a GIS expert. I tell my 10 main drivers of erosion and migration of the
11 students, my colleagues what I need, and 11 entire chain of islands?
12 fortunately they know GIS. I do not. But I 12 A. I wouldn't say the entire chain. When
13 think there is also recognition programs. I 13 it comes down the Breton Island, I'd say the
14 don't think it's quite as archaic as going 14 major impact there is MRGO cutting off the
15 around with a cursor and outlining the shapes, 15 sediment supply.
16 I think there's photo recognition programs that 16 Q. So excluding Breton Island, the change
17 allow you to independently determine where the 17 in land forms of the other islands in the
18 shorelines are based on color differentiations 18 Chandeleur chain is -- is it your opinion that
19 and things of that nature. 19 the primary driver of that change is the
20 Q. So what exactly did you receive from 20 occurrence of hurricanes or tropical storms?
21 the PIES group to create Figure 3.9? 21 A. It's one of the primary drivers. It
22 A. That Figure 3.9. 22 is certainly a primary driver. Another one is
23 Q. Oh, they prepare the figure and gave 23 sediment supply. So if these barriers, as they
24 it to you? 24 migrate landward, were to intercept sand
25 A. Yes. In fact, it may be part of 25 reservoirs beneath the barriers, then they
Page 63 Page 65
1 another study that they were doing. In fact, 1 would rebuild at a faster rate. So the
2 um -- they had been doing lots of projects out 2 framework geology is also a major factor in
3 in the Chandeleur Islands. The PIES group was 3 addition to the hurricane impacts.
4 involved with doing beneficial use of dredge 4 Q. So the sediment supply is something
5 spoil, for example. 5 that is part of the geologic framework?
6 Q. So you don't know how they came to 6 A. Correct.
7 obtain the data points that went into producing 7 Q. Are there other things that increase
8 Figure 3.9? 8 or decrease the sediment supply to the island?
9 A. Well, the data, per se, came from 9 A. The platform upon which the barriers
10 vertical aerial photographs and charts. 10 are migrating. If they migrate across a very
11 Obviously 1885, they used a chart. '51, we 11 deep sound or a deep embayment or into a hole
12 used vertical aerial photographs. 12 someplace, then obviously a lot of sediment is
13 Q. But you didn't review those 13 going to be used up in filling up that water
14 photographs or charts yourself, is that right? 14 column. So that sort of backbarrier
15 A. No, I did not. Mike Miner, another 15 topography, in addition to the geology
16 coauthor of our team was instrumental in 16 framework, in addition to the storms, are the
17 putting that information together for our 17 major factors that affect that landward
18 report. 18 migration. And there's one other factor, the
19 Q. Okay. So it looks like there was a 19 rate of sea level rise.
20 slight increase in acreage of Breton Island 20 Q. And how does that impact the chain of
21 between '78 and '89. You have listed one 21 islands?
22 Category 4 hurricane of 1979, and a tropical 22 A. Well, that affects the water column,
23 storm -- SMTS in your Table 3.2 means tropical 23 how much sediment has to be built up for the
24 storm, doesn't it? 24 barrier to maintain its head above the water
25 A. Yes, it does. 25 column, which is sea level.

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1 Q. And has sea level rise been increasing 1 Q. And is that -- is it those bathymetric
2 over the last hundred years or so? 2 maps that you're relying on to produce your
3 A. Yes. 3 opinions in this report regarding the tidal
4 Q. Have you studied the amount to which 4 channel?
5 the rate has increased? 5 A. The importance of that feeder channel.
6 A. Not in the Chandeleur Islands. We 6 There's the tidal end, but there's the major
7 have a station in Grand Isle, we have a station 7 channel in which the water, most of the water
8 on the Mississippi coast, but nothing in 8 between the Gulf of Mexico and Breton Sound,
9 Chandeleurs. 9 move through. When I say that -- there's lots
10 Q. Do you have any opinion on an estimate 10 of holes along the barrier that allow tidal
11 of what the change in sea level rise has been? 11 exchange between Breton Sound and Chandeleur
12 A. I don't, because -- well, when we talk 12 Sound and the Gulf of Mexico. But when we're
13 about sea level, you talk about your static sea 13 talking about this one inlet, most of the water
14 level which is what the world's oceans are 14 moves through this tidal channel.
15 doing, and then we have a relative sea level, 15 Adjacent -- between this tidal channel
16 what is going on at that particular place. And 16 and Breton Island was the small feeder channel,
17 within that relative sea level is not only what 17 something we referred to as a marginal channel.
18 the water is doing bit also what the land is 18 It carries less water, is less important for
19 doing, and those together tell you about what 19 tidal exchange, but it is an important conduit
20 the relative sea level is doing at that 20 for the transport of sand.
21 particular place. And we don't know about the 21 Q. And the feeder berm that is marked on
22 subsidence rate in the Chandeleur Island, so I 22 your -- one of your figures on Figure 3.2 on
23 can't answer that question. 23 Page 3-4, that's different from the feeder
24 Q. But you do know or you do have the 24 channel?
25 opinion that relative sea level rise is 25 A. It's located in almost the exact same
Page 67 Page 69
1 increasing -- 1 spot.
2 A. Yes, I do. 2 Q. But it's your opinion that that was
3 Q. -- in the Chandeleur Islands -- 3 ineffective for the sand ultimately making its
4 A. Yes. 4 way to the island?
5 Q. -- area? 5 A. If they wanted to repair the barrier
6 And you testified that there was -- I 6 and put sand on the barrier, they should have
7 think you just described it as a tidal channel. 7 pumped it onto the barrier. They should not
8 Is that right? Or a tidal inlet? Is that the 8 have put it in the channel in which the sand
9 same thing? 9 would be siphoned into the MRGO.
10 A. Well, a tidal inlet is the opening 10 Q. Do you know why they chose to use the
11 between the two barriers. The tidal channel is 11 feeder berm as opposed to what you suggest they
12 the channel which occupies that opening. 12 should have done?
13 Q. Okay. And so that was in existence 13 A. Less expensive, I assume.
14 prior to construction of the MRGO, is that 14 Q. Have you looked into the
15 right? I'm sorry. The one -- 15 decision-making process on that issue?
16 A. There was a channel there. 16 A. No, I have not.
17 Q. There was a tidal channel between 17 Q. And you mentioned bathymetric surveys.
18 Grand Gosier Island and Breton Island prior to 18 Did you review those yourself for preparation
19 construction of the MRGO; is that right? 19 of this section of your report?
20 A. Yes. But it wasn't half as deep as 20 A. No.
21 what it was after they dredged it. 21 Q. Who did review that?
22 Q. And how do you know how deep it was? 22 A. Mike Miner.
23 What have you studied to learn that? 23 Q. Okay. And so he -- did he create all
24 A. Those bathymetric maps that exist for 24 of the figures in Section 3 of your report?
25 this area that show the depths of channels. 25 MR. DUDENHEFER:

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1 Object to form. 1 A. I'm not sure which channel you're
2 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER: 2 speaking of.
3 Q. Did Mike Miner create all of the 3 Q. The tidal channel that preexisted the
4 figures in Section 3.0 of your report? 4 MRGO. I guess I can explain a little bit more.
5 MR. DUDENHEFER: 5 If I understood you correctly, your
6 Object to form. 6 opinion is that the MRGO itself trapped
7 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER: 7 sediment that would have flowed in a southerly
8 Q. Wall, I guess I should -- 8 direction and prevented it from reaching Breton
9 MR. DUDENHEFER: 9 Island. Is that right?
10 From time to time, sir, I'll make 10 A. Yes.
11 some objections, or other counsel 11 Q. So would the preexisting tidal channel
12 Mr. Stevens will, but subject to the 12 also have trapped sediment in that fashion?
13 objections you can you answer the 13 A. Yes. Let me explain, please. There
14 question. 14 is a sand shoal that sits in front of a tidal
15 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER: 15 inlet or a tidal channel, and that sand shoal
16 Q. I'll change my question. You already 16 is referred to as an ebb tidal delta. It is a
17 indicated that Figure 3.9 on Page 3-1 is 17 sand that's moved offshore by the ebb tidal
18 prepared by the PIES group, Pontchartrain 18 currents, and the sand that resides there is in
19 Institute for Environmental Science? Is that 19 equilibrium with those ebb flowing currents and
20 right? 20 the wave energy that moves sediment onshore.
21 A. Right. Of which Mike Miner is a 21 So as sediment enters that channel from the
22 member. 22 north, that sediment moves into the tidal
23 Q. He's a member of that. Okay. So he 23 channel, is moved in a net seaward direction,
24 was involved in creating Figure 3.9, is that 24 accumulates on the ebb tidal delta or ebb
25 correct? 25 shoal, and wave energy then moves that sand
Page 71 Page 73
1 A. Yes. 1 back onshore. So there's a natural process
2 MR. DUDENHEFER: 2 which is referred to as inlet sediment
3 Same objection. 3 bypassing whereby sand grains can go from Grand
4 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER: 4 Gosier Island all the way to Breton Island.
5 Q. For purposes of this report, was Mike 5 Now, when they constructed MRGO, they
6 Miner the person who evaluated bathymetric 6 increased the tidal exchange, they increased
7 charts or other -- 7 the volume of water which moved between Breton
8 A. He's the one that specifically told me 8 Sound and the Gulf of Mexico. So that sand
9 about the bathymetry that occurs between Breton 9 shoal that was -- that once was in equilibrium
10 Island and Grand Gosier. He discussed that in 10 with the former tidal channel had to grow
11 intimate detail with me. 11 substantia to become in equilibrium with the
12 Q. Okay. So do you know the depth of 12 new tidal channel. So that's movement of sand
13 that tidal channel? 13 offshore with sand that never made it to Breton
14 A. Prior to MRGO, it was somewhere 14 Island. That was exacerbated by the fact that
15 between 15 and 18 feet, I believe. 15 they removed sand from the channel itself and
16 Q. And that's based on information that 16 dumped it so far offshore such that wave energy
17 Mike Miner provided to you? 17 could never move that sand even toward the ebb
18 A. Correct. 18 shoal. So that sand was lost from the system,
19 Q. And he obtained that information from 19 as well. So we have two losses of sand; one
20 bathymetric surveys, is that correct? 20 that was related to the increase in the ebb
21 A. Correct. 21 tidal delta, and one related to the removal of
22 Q. And is it your opinion that that 22 sand in the maintenance effort of MRGO.
23 preexisting tidal channel would have trapped 23 Q. So there was some element of sand
24 sediment as it moved southward along the chain 24 being trapped through the preexisting channel,
25 of islands? 25 preexisting -- the channel that preexisted the

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Page 74 Page 76
1 MRGO between the Grand Gosier and Breton 1 meter and a half per second. Sand starts
2 Island, but the construction of the MRGO 2 moving -- sand will start moving in a velocity
3 exacerbated that effect, is that it? 3 of twenty centimeters per second. So when you
4 A. No. That's not right. Trapped is the 4 reached velocities of 180 centimeters per
5 wrong word. What I was talking about is 5 second, it's moving.
6 sediment bypassing. Once that ebb shoal 6 Q. But those studies were not specific to
7 reaches an equilibrium size, any sand that's 7 the parameters of Hurricane Katrina, is that
8 added to that is then moved back onshore by 8 right?
9 wave energy. So, no, that sand wasn't being 9 A. Correct. But they do illustrate the
10 trapped. If you want to say it was sequestered 10 southerly movement of sand that occurs during
11 for a short period of time until it made it all 11 wave events and how that sand is conveyed along
12 the way around the ebb shoal, then that would 12 the southern shoreline and how that sand is
13 better describe the process. 13 nourishing the down drift barriers.
14 (Brief interruption.) 14 Q. The actual modeling of the impact of
15 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER: 15 barrier islands on storm surge, is that
16 Q. You have testified and you have stated 16 something that is within your expertise to do?
17 in your report that the Chandeleur Islands are 17 A. No. I don't do hydrodynamic modeling.
18 important from a physical standpoint because 18 Q. And you indicated that there has been
19 they protect Chandeleur and Breton Sounds and 19 some beneficial use of dredge spoil on Breton
20 the vast interior of wetlands from open Gulf of 20 Island by placing the spoil from the MRGO
21 Mexico wave and storm conditions particularly 21 directly on the island, right?
22 during hurricanes. Have you studied that 22 A. They've closed breaches in the past by
23 impact with respect to Hurricane Katrina? 23 pumping sand directly onto the barrier. For
24 A. Have I done storm analyses of that 24 example, in August, November, 2001, they placed
25 region? 25 sand in breaches and closed them. In other
Page 75 Page 77
1 Q. Yes. 1 instances, as I've indicated here in our Table
2 A. I have not. But I have looked at 2 3-3, it was simply placed on the feeder berm,
3 other studies, of the Timbalier Islands, the 3 or what they refer to as the feeder berm.
4 Isle Deniers that have been done by Greg Stone, 4 Q. Have you evaluated the acreage of
5 and seen before and after measurement of storm 5 beneficial impact of disposal of dredge
6 surge and waves with and without those 6 material?
7 barriers, and it is substantial. They knock 7 A. Only peripherally, to see that indeed
8 down a great deal of wave energy when they're 8 there were holes cut in the barrier during a
9 present. You remove them, then those ocean 9 hurricane and approximately where that sediment
10 waves and storm surges are much larger along 10 would go, but I did not study that in detail.
11 the mainland coast. 11 Q. And where did you obtain that
12 Q. So those studies that you have 12 information that was used to compile Table 3.1
13 reviewed -- I'm sorry. You have not reviewed 13 that you reference?
14 studies of the impact of the Chandeleur Islands 14 A. It's a report that, um -- Karen
15 on Hurricane Katrina's storm surge, is that 15 Westphal did in cooperation with the Army Corps
16 right? 16 of Engineers, the beneficial use of dredge
17 A. Right. I've reviewed a couple of 17 spoil. It was a study, I believe, that was
18 studies, peripheral studies looking at wave 18 funded by the Army Corps of Engineers through
19 energy and bottom currents. Ioannis Georgiou 19 PIES.
20 did a wave study for moderate storms. We're 20 Q. Is that what's referenced on Page 8-2,
21 talking about tropical storms and Category 1 21 your last reference?
22 storms and the sort of energy that they impart 22 A. Excuse me. Do you mind if Andrew
23 to the bottom, the currents that they produce, 23 occasionally helps me find things here, to
24 and in his analysis that I've seen they 24 expedite things?
25 produced current velocities in excess of a 25 Q. Um --

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1 A. What did you say, 8-point? 1 A. Sure. (Tendering.)
2 Q. 8-2. 2 Q. And you have a pad of paper. Does
3 A. Okay. All right. Okay. 8.2. Yeah. 3 that include any information --
4 Beneficial Use Monitoring Program. Correct. 4 A. No. It's just a cheat sheet about
5 Q. So Table 3.1 titled MRGO Dredging and 5 the, um -- sources of information that we used
6 Disposal History, that relates to Breton Island 6 to generate the maps that were in 4.2 and 3.
7 alone, is that right? 7 Q. Okay. Well, I had questions about
8 A. Correct. 8 those, as well, so maybe on our next break we
9 Q. And back to where you just were, 9 can photocopy these things, because I'd like to
10 Page 3-2, figure 3.1, what is the source of 10 introduce them.
11 this, the information that created this figure? 11 So this, I think, is what you
12 A. This is a bathymetric chart -- 12 referenced, a list of data used to build
13 Q. And -- 13 document. (Tendering.)
14 A. -- that USGS, um -- bathymetric survey 14 What part of your report does this
15 chart. 15 refer to?
16 Q. Do you know the date of it? 16 A. This material right here was used to
17 A. No, I don't, but I will say this, that 17 generate the habitat change maps, shoreline
18 the actual bathymetry that was collected in 18 change maps, and also there's background
19 this area was done in the 1920s, and then it 19 information that's contained in the appendices,
20 was done again as part of the Bickham project 20 some photographs and maps and so on. And,
21 in 2005, 2006. 21 um -- there's reference here to Britsch and
22 Q. Part of what project? 22 Dunbar 's land loss maps. And Breton Island
23 A. This remapping of the bathymetry of 23 shoreline data provided by UNO PIES that I've
24 the Louisiana shoreline. 24 said. And the person that did this is Louis.
25 Q. One of the questions I had in general 25 Q. The person who did it what?
Page 79 Page 81
1 about your report, and, you know, I may ask you 1 A. Is Louis. Louis has a last name that
2 a number of times, but a lot of your figures, 2 I've forgotten.
3 some of them go -- information about where you 3 Q. Okay. I wasn't sure if you were still
4 would obtain the information used to create the 4 speaking.
5 figures, but for example on Page 3-5, 3-6 and 5 A. I was thinking.
6 through to 3-9 -- and I'll say 3-10, you don't 6 Q. Okay.
7 state where you obtained the information that 7 MS. MILLER:
8 you used to create these figures, like you have 8 I want to introduce some of these
9 listed acreage of Breton Island area for 9 documents as exhibits but I assume you
10 different years. Do you know where you got 10 want to make copies.
11 that information? 11 MR. STEVENS:
12 A. This information was obtained by Mike 12 Sure. Yeah. Well, attach
13 Miner from the PIES institute. They have a 13 copies. If you want to put just a
14 mapping group there that does GIS, and they 14 temporary sticker on them for now and
15 were responsible for producing these documents. 15 identify them by number we'll make
16 MR. STEVENS: 16 copies for you and put permanent
17 Kara, I think he told us at the 17 stickers on them during the next
18 outset he has a list of the data 18 break. How about that?
19 sources. 19 MS. MILLER:
20 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER: 20 Okay. That's fine.
21 Q. Okay. Well, maybe this would be a 21 MR. STEVENS:
22 good time to take a look at those. I think you 22 We'll just use Post-its. Just
23 named two -- well, a couple of things. Could I 23 use a temporary Post-it.
24 maybe just take a look at these documents that 24 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER:
25 you brought? 25 Q. Okay. So Exhibit 3 will be the

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Page 82 Page 84
1 document that we were discussing just a minute 1 Q. Okay. So I am going to mark this
2 ago that you described as explaining the 2 Frazier -- those two pages from the Frazier
3 underlying sources of the habitat maps. Is 3 document as Exhibit 5. And you were explaining
4 that right? 4 why they were interesting to you. And could
5 (Exhibit 3 was marked for 5 you just tell me -- I'm not immediately
6 identification and is attached hereto.) 6 understanding exactly what's being shown by
7 A. Correct. 7 those diagrams. Is it just the development of
8 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER: 8 the delta and the way that abandoned
9 Q. Okay. 9 distributaries -- the land changes over time?
10 A. Louis Martinez. 10 Is that --
11 Q. Louis Martinez provided this 11 A. Yes. Great.
12 information? 12 Q. -- a general sense?
13 A. He helped in the assembling of those 13 (Exhibit 5 was marked for
14 documents. 14 identification and is attached hereto.)
15 Q. Of the ones about Breton Sound? 15 A. Yes. You've had a Mississippi River
16 A. Breton Island, yes. 16 Delta Class 101.
17 Q. Breton Island? 17 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER:
18 A. Where it says UNO PIES. 18 Q. Great.
19 Q. And these -- you have three pages of 19 A. Yes, it just shows the pathway of the
20 color documents that you mentioned were from -- 20 Mississippi and its depo center through time.
21 A. Britsch and Dunbar. 21 So these numbers here show where the
22 Q. Land loss, study by Britsch and 22 Mississippi was depositing sediment. And those
23 Dunbar. Why did you bring these particular 23 numbers correspond to these numbers here. And
24 pages today? 24 so these different bios and these different
25 A. In case you ask me questions about 25 lobes are given different names and they show,
Page 83 Page 85
1 them. 1 along the X axis the chronology of those, um --
2 Q. Okay. And those are just -- are these 2 sedimentation intervals.
3 the same things that are reflected in Figure 3 Q. Okay. So which -- there are a number
4 5.1, 5.2, 5.3 and 5.4, just in different colors 4 of, um -- bayous listed. Which one is the --
5 and smaller portions of this map? 5 okay. So on the one side of this document
6 A. Yes. Different colors, yes. 6 that's marked Page 308 there's the St. Bernard
7 Q. These three pages will end up being 7 Delta complex listed on the right-hand side. I
8 Exhibit 4. 8 guess that would be the Y axis. Is that right?
9 (Exhibit 4 was marked for 9 A. Yes.
10 identification and is attached hereto.) 10 Q. It's been a while since I've dealt
11 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER: 11 with that sort of thing.
12 Q. And then you have this page that's 12 So is that the section that's relevant
13 double-sided from a Frazier article? 13 to us, or is the entire -- yeah. Or is the
14 A. Yeah. 14 entire thing relevant?
15 Q. And why did you bring this one? 15 A. I think the point to see there is that
16 A. It's interesting. It just shows 16 the Mississippi delta has changed its position
17 the -- how the Mississippi River 's load has 17 through time. And there's something known as a
18 been distributed through time to different 18 delta cycle in which when the delta is
19 areas in the Mississippi Delta plan. 19 depositing sediment the shoreline progrades, we
20 Q. Are both sides relevant to your 20 have land building events, and then which the
21 opinions in this case? 21 distributary moves away from that site, when it
22 A. One side gives the location, one side 22 avulses to a new location due to an increase in
23 gives the chronology. 23 gradient, then that old delta lobe gets
24 (Brief interruption.) 24 reworked and undergoes a destructional phase.
25 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER: 25 That's what that diagram illustrates

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Page 86 Page 88
1 essentially. And it illustrates, obviously, 1 how it was going to change.
2 the positions of the delta through time. 2 Q. Did you review other design
3 Q. So on the side that's Page 307, these 3 memorandum?
4 different dashed lines show positions of the 4 A. No.
5 different deltas? 5 Q. Only Number 1-B?
6 A. Right. 6 A. Yes.
7 Q. And what part of your report does this 7 Q. Did you review any that related to the
8 help illustrate? 8 Lake Pontchartrain and Vicinity Hurricane
9 A. The overall geological framework. 9 Protection Project?
10 Q. Okay. Then you have another document 10 A. No.
11 that is -- 11 Q. How did you obtain the design
12 A. It's from the design memorandum. 12 memorandum?
13 Q. And it's marked Plate 4 from Design 13 A. It was handed to me by Mike Miner.
14 Memorandum Number 1-B for the Mississippi River 14 Q. Did you inquire whether there were
15 Gulf Outlet. Um -- 15 others that went along with it?
16 A. 1958, is it? 16 A. No.
17 Q. Date August, 1958, yes. So I am going 17 Q. I guess the only other thing that I
18 to mark this one as Exhibit 6. 18 think we can identify, the expert report dated
19 And why did you bring this with you 19 September 15th, 2007 expert report of Shea
20 today? 20 Penland I think we can just identify by its
21 (Exhibit 6 was marked for 21 date, and the same with the December '99
22 identification and is attached hereto.) 22 habitat impact, and the supplemental report by
23 A. It just shows how MRGO was planned, 23 John Day and Gary Shaffer dated January 27,
24 and shows something about the geology. But it 24 2009.
25 really shows how the MRGO was planned in its 25 I don't know that we need to introduce
Page 87 Page 89
1 construction. It shows, for example, that the 1 these, but why did you bring -- why did you
2 dredge spoil was going to be on the west side. 2 bring the Habitat Impacts of the Construction
3 And there's other documentation that goes with 3 of the MRGO document?
4 this that shows that a continuous borrow pit 4 A. Because they discuss some recent
5 extended along the very western border, and 5 photographs that were given to our team of
6 that material that was taken from the borrow 6 experts by the Army Corps of Engineers which
7 pit was put on the marsh to keep the dredge 7 illustrate the extent of trees back in the
8 spoil from essentially flowing any further west 8 1960s --
9 when they were building MRGO. 9 Q. You're referencing --
10 They also show the original access 10 A. -- and other sorts of marsh
11 channel and how that was -- material from that 11 vegetation.
12 access channel was used to create the buffer on 12 Q. And you're referencing the
13 the eastern side of the entire dredge spoil 13 supplemental report of John Day and Gary
14 area. So they created berms, if you will, or 14 Shaffer dated January 27th, 2009, is that
15 small dikes to contain the dredge spoil that 15 right?
16 ultimately would be sourced when they cut MRGO 16 A. Yes. Because they intimately
17 through the wetlands. That's what this shows. 17 investigated these photographs and wrote
18 And it shows the width, the breadth, the amount 18 detailed descriptions about those photographs.
19 of wetlands which were destroyed during this 19 Q. Have you reviewed the photographs that
20 process. 20 they describe in this supplemental report?
21 Q. Okay. And did you review the entire 21 A. I've looked through all of them and
22 Design Memorandum Number 1-B? 22 looked very closely at several of them.
23 A. I paged through it. Looked mostly at 23 Q. But by all of them, do you mean all of
24 these types of diagrams to look at the 24 the photographs that are described in this
25 footprint, the original footprint of MRGO and 25 report, or all of some other collection?

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DUNCAN FITZGERALD February 11, 2009
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1 A. All the photographs that are mentioned 1 Q. From two weeks ago? Do you know the
2 in that report, to the best of my knowledge. 2 dates of those depositions?
3 Q. And is it your understanding that the 3 A. No. Recently.
4 photographs described in this supplemental 4 Q. Did you review any other deposition
5 report were selected from a larger group of 5 transcripts?
6 photographs? 6 A. No.
7 A. I really don't know. 7 Q. And did you review any other expert
8 Q. Does the information -- well, did you 8 reports, either from the plaintiffs or the
9 review the photographs with Dr.~Day and 9 United States?
10 Dr. Shaffer? 10 A. I've looked at pieces of them, but
11 A. No, I did not. 11 nothing in detail. Nothing in real detail.
12 Q. Did you review them with anyone else? 12 Q. What parts of the report from Don
13 A. Yes. With Andrew, Mike Miner and, 13 Resio did you review?
14 um -- Elwood. 14 A. The parts he talks about my report. I
15 Q. And when did you do that review? 15 don't know what those page numbers are.
16 A. Yesterday. 16 Q. Okay. And have any of the reports or
17 Q. Had you seen the photographs prior to 17 deposition testimony that you read, has any of
18 yesterday? 18 that changed the opinions that you express in
19 A. I had seen very poor quality 19 your expert report?
20 reproductions of them, and I couldn't see 20 A. Since I wrote that, I have, um -- as I
21 anything from them. Yesterday's photographs 21 just got through saying, I have a better
22 are vivid. 22 understanding of the vegetation that existed in
23 Q. Do the photographs or the information 23 some of our areas. I have a better
24 contained in the supplemental report of Dr. Day 24 understanding of the processes that took place
25 and Dr. Shaffer change any of the opinions 25 in the MRGO channel. And that comes from not
Page 91 Page 93
1 you've expressed in your July of 2008 expert 1 any one piece of data, not any one
2 report? 2 conversation, but the totality of my
3 A. I think they give me a better 3 involvement in this study.
4 understanding of the environments that existed 4 Q. By that, do you mean your
5 in some of our categories. The categories we 5 participation in meetings?
6 use are somewhat broad and, um -- when we say 6 A. Meetings, things I've read, yeah,
7 fresh marsh it gives me an indication that not 7 conversations I've had with individuals.
8 only was fresh marsh there, but there were 8 Q. Identify the individuals with whom
9 trees there, trees that occurred in small 9 you've discussed your report.
10 clumps and particularly along bayous. 10 A. The people with our team. We've had
11 Q. Have you reviewed any other 11 several meetings here where experts were here.
12 information subsequent to preparing your 12 Um -- we've had, um -- telecommunications.
13 July 2008 report -- or after production of your 13 Um -- well, I guess we didn't -- they weren't
14 July 2008 report? 14 telecommunications, they were phone -- what do
15 A. I reviewed the, um -- reports of Dale 15 we call those?
16 Britsch, John Barras and a portion of Don 16 MR. STEVENS:
17 Resio 's. I've also read the reports of John 17 Conference calls.
18 Day and Shaffer. 18 A. Conference calls.
19 Q. And do you mean -- obviously we've 19 MR. STEVENS:
20 been discussing -- 20 That's a legal term. I know you
21 A. Their expert report. 21 scientists don't use that term.
22 Q. -- the supplemental report. So the 22 A. We've had conference calls, we've had
23 one also dated July of 2008? 23 telephone calls, we've had meetings. I've been
24 A. Correct. And I've read the 24 down here several times since that report was
25 depositions of Day and Shaffer. 25 turned in. And so I've got additional thoughts

24 (Pages 90 to 93)
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DUNCAN FITZGERALD February 11, 2009
Page 94 Page 96
1 and ideas, further development of my opinions 1 that production?
2 from all of these interactions and readings 2 MR. STEVENS:
3 I've done. 3 I have no -- I can't even tell
4 Q. And by readings, is there anything 4 you.
5 other than what you've already listed, the 5 MS. MILLER:
6 expert reports and deposition testimony that 6 And are you sure it came from --
7 you've read? 7 MR. STEVENS:
8 A. No, I think that's all. There may 8 It is Barras or Britsch. Today
9 have been something I've missed but I think 9 we got a big production.
10 you've got it all. 10 MS. MILLER:
11 Q. And do you intend to produce any 11 There was a listing of codes, I
12 supplement to your July 2008 report? 12 believe, produced.
13 A. Right now we're looking at, um -- 13 MR. STEVENS:
14 we're looking at possible correlation between 14 Whatever it is, we reserve the
15 the geology and the height of the levees. This 15 right to have Dr. FitzGerald comment
16 is all existing data that we have, it's nothing 16 on it. It may be his comment is this
17 new, it's nothing been measured, it's no 17 adds nothing to the discussion. But
18 additional data we're collecting or that we're 18 to the extent that it might, we would
19 obtaining, it's all -- we just want to see what 19 ask him to do that.
20 the correlation is between dredging activity, 20 In fact, he might be highly
21 the geology and the levee heights. 21 critical of it.
22 Q. And who do you mean by we? 22 MS. MILLER:
23 A. My team. 23 Obviously, that's something we
24 Q. So -- 24 will address with the Court if
25 A. Coauthors. 25 necessary.
Page 95 Page 97
1 Q. Okay. 1 MR. STEVENS:
2 MR. STEVENS: 2 We'll see.
3 Well, I would add this at this 3 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER:
4 point. I understand that we just got 4 Q. Okay. So at this time you are
5 today, you may not even be aware of 5 continuing to look at a correlation between
6 it -- from the other folks on your 6 geology, height of levees and dredging
7 team, we just got today a big 7 activities, but you have not yet made a
8 production from Britsch. And to the 8 determination of whether you will produce an
9 extent -- of documents that we hadn't 9 additional report?
10 seen before. So to the extent that we 10 A. Correct.
11 got stuff from Dr. Britsch we will 11 Q. Have you been asked to produce another
12 probably have Dr. FitzGerald review it 12 report?
13 and comment on it. I just want to 13 A. No.
14 reserve that right to do that. So 14 Q. And you said you have a better
15 while we're on this subject, I was 15 understanding both of the vegetation and the
16 informed at the last break that we got 16 processes that took place in the MRGO channel.
17 a big production today of new stuff. 17 Can you describe what you mean by the
18 A. I didn't even know about it. 18 processes that took place in the MRGO channel?
19 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER: 19 A. We know that the MRGO channel, from
20 Q. Do you have any idea -- 20 its original footprint of 650 feet -- excuse
21 MR. STEVENS: 21 me, before you ask that question, I was going
22 He's hearing about it for the 22 ask for a break. And this could take some time
23 first time. 23 for me to answer the question.
24 MS. MILLER: 24 MR. STEVENS:
25 Do you have any idea what's in 25 So would now be a good time for

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Page 98 Page 100
1 that break? 1 variety of sediment, but right at the mouth it
2 A. Yeah, now would be an excellent time 2 deposits sand and that's known as the
3 for that break. Would you mind? 3 distributary mouth bar. And then as you move
4 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER: 4 further and further away from the channel you
5 Q. Typically, I would ask you to go ahead 5 get finer and finer grain of sediments because
6 and answer the question before we take a break, 6 the energy of the water is decreasing so it's
7 but you think that's, um -- 7 capable of carrying only smaller and smaller
8 A. It's uncomfortable. 8 grain sizes.
9 MR. STEVENS: 9 In between distributaries are large
10 We'll wait for you. We can stay 10 open bays. They occasionally receive sediments
11 in place. 11 from flood events. They also receive sediments
12 MS. MILLER: 12 that accumulate in sort of a bay environment
13 We can take a break. That's 13 due to waves and tidal currents bringing
14 fine. 14 sediments. All those sediments that tend to
15 (Following a brief recess, the 15 accumulate in a bay are very fine grained
16 previous question was read back.) 16 except when we get one of these over bank
17 A. Yes. Since it's original footprint of 17 events called a crevasse that introduces a
18 650 feet, it has grown to triple its size on 18 little bit coarser grain material. And so that
19 average. And because of that increase in size 19 interdistributary bar -- I mean the
20 there is during local wind events larger waves 20 interdistributary bay sediment is fine grain.
21 that are produced in MRGO, during storms there 21 As they describe it here, it's disposed in clay
22 are larger storm surges and waves that impinge 22 wedges between major distributaries, hence the
23 upon that protection levee. The protection 23 name interdistributary bay. Here they call it
24 levee itself produces a load on the underlying 24 interdistributary trough. Clay sequences
25 sediments that result in slumping of the banks. 25 interrupted by silty or sandy materials
Page 99 Page 101
1 And this was noted by the Army Corps of 1 associated with a myriad of small
2 Engineers when they were doing their framework 2 distributaries, that's the material I referred
3 geological study. 3 to as a crevasse. But otherwise, fairly
4 If we could refer you to Page 6.2, if 4 homogeneous. The material will probably --
5 you turn to one more page, 6.3, that is what we 5 here is the operative sentence in this
6 refer to as a geological cross-section, and 6 description: The material will probably
7 that dashed red line is at 40 feet. The 7 displace laterally under fairly light loads.
8 designed depth of MRGO was 36 feet. They were 8 I don't think anybody would say that a
9 allowed another two feet for maintenance 9 17-foot high levee would be a light load. So
10 dredging, why come back to the same place twice 10 that loading the spoil bank, loading this
11 sort of idea. And they were also allowed two 11 portion of the marsh, which beneath this levee
12 extra feet in case they were dredging deeper 12 there is this sediment, this interdistributary
13 than they had wanted to. So the maximum depth 13 trough that has been defined by the Army Corps
14 was 40 feet. And that's what that red dashed 14 of Engineers as having little strength that
15 line indicates. The colors there indicate the 15 will laterally displace under light loads, let
16 type of geological sediments that would be 16 alone a 17-foot high levee, this was to be
17 encountered during the dredging of that and 17 expected. This -- any competent engineer would
18 removal of that material. 18 have known that if you load this area you're
19 And as the top -- that green pattern, 19 going to get lateral movement.
20 that's marsh. And there's Paris Road, you can 20 So you can ask the question, where is
21 see that by the stipple pattern there. The 21 the sediment going to go? Well, you've just
22 underlying brown is a major unit that was 22 excavated a whole that's 40 feet deep.
23 removed from this MRGO, and that brown says 23 Obviously that load is going to move toward
24 interdistributary. Now, when the delta is 24 this opening. That opening is no longer
25 actively depositing sediment it deposits a 25 providing any confining pressure. And so when

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Page 102 Page 104
1 you open up this hole, the sediment -- it's 1 species can come in and replace that species
2 like putting a baseball on top of marshmallow 2 they're perhaps being killed by the change in
3 fluff. I mean, that marshmallow fluff is just 3 salinity caused by MRGO.
4 going to flow. And that's what this sediment 4 So there's a variety of processes that
5 did. 5 are operating in MRGO, and they all led to
6 So the widening of the channel was due 6 failure and -- not only the failure during
7 to a number of things. It was certainly due to 7 Katrina, but what I find most amazing is
8 the slumping caused by the loading of this 8 failure of the engineers to understand what
9 sediment that had very little strength that we 9 they were doing. I mean, it's here in their
10 mind in the remarks that were produced by the 10 own words. This material will laterally flow
11 Army Corps of Engineers. Other processes that 11 under light loads, let alone this 17-foot high
12 are involved in the widening of that channel 12 levee.
13 include local wind-generated waves. And the 13 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER:
14 wind-generated waves are short period, um -- 14 Q. So when you say all those processes
15 they're small height, but they attack with a 15 led to failure during Katrina, you mean failure
16 good deal of energy because there's very little 16 of the hurricane protection levees?
17 shoaling. They have short periods. There's 17 A. I mean the flooding of the St. Bernard
18 very little refraction. What I mean by that is 18 Parish, the flooding of the Ninth Ward, all of
19 bending of the wave crest. They meet at an 19 these processes contributed to that.
20 angle, they break, they undercut, they erode 20 Q. And do you have an opinion on how
21 the marsh, and they widen the channel 21 those processes contributed? Other than what
22 considerably. 22 you've just explained in terms of what the
23 Over a 40-year period this channel 23 processes were -- I mean, you agree that it was
24 tripled in size. And there are everybody 24 failure of the hurricane protection system that
25 accounts by the Army Corps of Engineers that 25 resulted in flooding, is that right?
Page 103 Page 105
1 noticed that the channel was widening. Why 1 MR. DUDENHEFER:
2 wouldn't you? It was eroding on the eastern 2 Object to form.
3 side by an average of eleven feet per year, on 3 A. I state that because of the width of
4 the western side -- excuse me, I've got that 4 MRGO it produced a larger storm surge and
5 backwards. On the eastern side it was eroding 5 larger wave energy that impacted the protection
6 at 11 feet per year on average. On the western 6 levee.
7 side it was eroding at 22 feet per year. I 7 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER:
8 mean, anybody would have noticed that. 8 Q. Okay.
9 And this is a positive feedback. The 9 A. It also conveyed water more easily up
10 wider that you make that channel the larger the 10 into the funnel because of this opening,
11 waves that you're going to produce. The 11 because of this straight conduit coming from
12 parameters that control the construction of a 12 Breton Sound into the triangle area formed by
13 wave are the fetch, the wind velocity and 13 the MRGO and the Intracoastal waterway. That
14 duration of that wind along with the depth. 14 water could be conveyed much mere easily the
15 That width and increase in depth as the channel 15 wider that MRGO got.
16 widened was certainly producing larger waves. 16 Even the original construction of MRGO
17 And so not only was the channel widening, but 17 was complicit in this increase in water levels
18 there was this positive feedback that you get 18 that would have occurred during the storm. But
19 larger and larger waves the wider it got. 19 certainly it's widening to triple its size that
20 There was also the introduction of 20 should have been noticed by anybody, and you
21 saltwater into this area. And the introduction 21 would have guessed that they would have
22 of saltwater changes the vegetation. But it 22 produced some sort of preventative measures.
23 also makes the vegetation more susceptible to 23 Whether they would have put up some bulkheads,
24 erosion because it -- the plants are dealing 24 they would have produced some riprap revetments
25 with this new environment, and before one 25 to stem this erosion. And the wider that you

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1 make something, the more easily the saltwater 1 the area and seen -- I've seen MRGO.
2 gets in there and kills the -- changes the 2 Q. And are you aware of there being
3 habitats, which also contributed to the 3 riprap protection there?
4 decrease in frictional resistance offered by 4 A. There are large areas where there's
5 those storms. 5 nothing.
6 Q. Okay. You've said a whole lot over 6 Q. And there are some areas where there
7 the last several minutes, and I want to follow 7 is protection, is that right?
8 up on a few different things. 8 A. As far as I know there are some small
9 Did you work with the -- you said that 9 areas.
10 you are not, yourself, a hydraulic modeler. 10 Q. And you haven't measured those areas?
11 Did you work with the experts for the 11 A. No, I haven't.
12 plaintiffs who did do hydraulic modeling to 12 Q. And you haven't studied when that
13 evaluate Katrina 's storm surge? 13 protection was put in?
14 A. No. 14 A. No, I haven't. But the fact is that
15 Q. Okay. Did you provide any information 15 it was once 650 feet, and on average now it's
16 to them? 16 1320 feet. Even if protection measures were
17 A. Only our maps. Our habitat maps. We 17 put in place they were done not soon enough.
18 provided those to all the experts. 18 They have tripled their width.
19 Q. And which maps are those? 19 Q. And you testified that the widening of
20 A. Our report. We provided our report. 20 the channel that you describe was understood
21 Q. Your entire report. 21 and anticipate at the time the channel was
22 A. Right. 22 constructed, is that right?
23 Q. Was that after it was produced to us? 23 A. People should have been aware that
24 Or do you know -- I'm sorry. Do you know when 24 wind-generated waves and the wakes from the
25 your report was provided to the other experts 25 boat traffic that was using that was going to
Page 107 Page 109
1 for the plaintiffs? 1 erode the side. I mean, it seems to me any
2 A. The date, I think we were -- wasn't it 2 competent engineer would have foreseen that
3 July? July 11th? Right around then. 3 eventuality.
4 Q. But you didn't work with the storm 4 Q. Have you looked at any historical
5 surge modelers who were serving as experts for 5 documents to evaluate whether the Corps of
6 the plaintiffs in preparing their reports? 6 Engineers did look at that eventuality?
7 A. No, I did not work with them. 7 A. No, I have not. I only see that they
8 Q. Okay. And have you -- I'm trying to 8 didn't do anything about it.
9 get a handle on all the things that you have 9 Q. You also described -- as I followed
10 said. Have you evaluated -- you mentioned some 10 your explanation of the processes that have
11 measures that could have been taken to respond 11 impacted the MRGO channel, I noted four main
12 to the widening of the channel. Have you 12 things that you described: One, the wide
13 evaluated what the Corps did or whether the 13 widening of the channel; two, the loading from
14 Corps evaluated taking any such measures? 14 the levee construction; three, the local wind
15 A. No, I haven't. 15 generated waves; and 4, the saltwater
16 MR. DUDENHEFER: 16 intrusion. Is that?
17 Object to form. 17 A. Boat wakes.
18 A. But I have seen other measures taken 18 Q. Boat wakes would be a fifth one?
19 within the Mississippi Delta plan to curb 19 A. You may have said two that were very
20 erosion. 20 similar. The wind-generated waves and local
21 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER: 21 waves? I mean, we can isolate storm waves
22 Q. So have you evaluated whether there 22 versus frontal patches during sea breezes and
23 was any riprap protection placed along the MRGO 23 land breezes, but wind's action across the
24 channel? 24 water 's surface was certainly an important
25 A. Well, as I've told you I have flown 25 generator of waves which impacted both sides of

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1 that channel. 1 Q. Okay. So I will ask you more about
2 Q. Uh-huh. 2 these habitat maps, but I will wait until after
3 A. So that would be one category. 3 lunch to do that.
4 The lateral movement -- the weight of 4 For now, I just want to go back to
5 the protection levee would be another one. The 5 what you had been talking about, beginning with
6 boat wakes would be a third. The saltwater 6 the Table 6.1, on Page 6.2, and you described
7 intrusion would be a fourth. The change in 7 what the pictures that follow that table are,
8 vegetation due to the salinity is a fifth. 8 to some extent.
9 Q. Sort of a subset of the saltwater 9 On Table 6.1, this cites Plate 5 from
10 intrusion? 10 a Corps of Engineers geological investigation
11 A. Did I say that? I'm guilty of it, 11 of the Mississippi River Gulf Outlet channel.
12 too. 12 The colored column on the left-hand side, I
13 Q. I'm wondering if you consider it -- I 13 gather that you and your team added that to the
14 mean -- 14 document that came from the Corps of Engineers.
15 A. Yes. 15 Is that right?
16 Q. It's your opinion that the vegetation 16 A. Correct.
17 changed because of the saltwater intrusion, is 17 Q. And then those charts that follow it I
18 that right? 18 want to make sure I understand are -- I'm not
19 A. Yes. 19 sure they're called charts but the pictures
20 (Brief interruption.) 20 beginning on Page 6-3 and going through to 6-9,
21 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER: 21 I think.
22 Q. Okay. During the break we got some 22 A. They're called cross-sections.
23 copies made of the exhibits we discussed 23 Q. Okay. So how did you create these;
24 earlier, and one of them we had not yet 24 what was the basis of how you determined where
25 introduced into the record. That is this page 25 each of the layers went?
Page 111 Page 113
1 that I marked as Exhibit 7 which was on your 1 A. These are done from cores. What's not
2 note pad. And you described that. Could you 2 shown here is the original database in which
3 describe again what that is? 3 they drilled through the marsh environment and
4 (Exhibit 7 was marked for 4 then subsequently interpreted the cores. They
5 identification and is attached hereto.) 5 cut these cores open and look at the sediments.
6 A. It's just shows the data sources that 6 Or if it's a different type of coring device,
7 were used in our habitat maps. The information 7 periodically a sample will come to the surface.
8 there comes from -- each map comes from three 8 They have different methods of looking at the
9 different sources, one is a land water boundary 9 changes in what we refer to as sediment time or
10 from Britsch and Dunbar, and that is various 10 lithology, and those are recorded with depth.
11 dates, and then the USGS quads, that's where we 11 And so this really would consist of
12 get the trees and the swamps, those are USGS 12 many cores along its length to come up with
13 quadrangles. They have a different date. And 13 what we refer to as an interpretation. And so
14 then we get the characterization of the marsh, 14 we can follow the same sort of sediments
15 and that is a different author and different 15 laterally, and we can look at the change in
16 dates. And so just to keep all those straight 16 sediment type with depth. And so this is
17 I have those in front of me in case I'm asked. 17 really also called a fence diagram in which the
18 And then I have some information here 18 individual portions of the fence are a core or
19 about the widening of MRGO, and then I have -- 19 the information that's used to then extrapolate
20 Andrew is a GISP (a Geographical Information 20 between the next fence pole.
21 Systems Professional) and he's got more than 21 Q. So you referenced an original
22 fifteen years experience. That's what's in 22 database. What is the original database?
23 this. 23 A. It was the U.S. Army Corps of
24 Q. And by Andrew you mean Andrew Milanes? 24 Engineers publication 1958. So this is --
25 A. Yes. 25 Q. So the publication from which Table

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1 6.1 was taken -- 1 right?
2 A. Came from an Army Corps of Engineers 2 A. Correct. But let me add something
3 publication, correct. 3 here. The Army Corps of Engineers interpreted
4 Q. And the same publication is what you 4 these sedimentary environments. So each one of
5 used to create Pages 6-3 to 6-9? 5 these colors represents a sedimentary
6 A. Yes. 6 environment, an environment in which sediment
7 Q. And in your list of references I want 7 accumulates or is deposited, and they're the
8 to make sure we can find which one you're 8 ones that made this interpretation.
9 talking about. There's only one -- well, there 9 Q. Okay. So they took the cores, the
10 are two core publications listed for 1958. 10 actual drilling into the --
11 Well, one is the Design Memorandum Number 1-B 11 A. Right.
12 and the other one is that the source you're 12 Q. -- what would become the channel, and
13 talking about for Part 6 of your report, the 13 they created these lithology, um -- pictures, I
14 Geological Investigation of the Mississippi 14 guess, for lack of a better word, for that
15 River Gulf Outlet channel? 15 column to represent the different type of soil
16 A. Yes. 16 or clays, silts, sands --
17 Q. And so that document evaluates cores 17 MR. STEVENS:
18 that were drilled into the alignment of the 18 Lithographic representation.
19 channel? 19 A. What they do is they will open up a
20 A. Yeah. Essentially they wanted to know 20 core and they'll look at the, um -- what the
21 the sort of sediments they would be drilling 21 sediment is composed of and what it is bordered
22 through, so they could not only plan the 22 by. So they use the, again, the entire core or
23 construction of this but probably also tell the 23 the totality of information to understand what
24 dredgers what sort of material that they would 24 a particular group of sedimentary deposits or
25 be removing. One would have guessed that they 25 what we refer to as sedimentary facies
Page 115 Page 117
1 would have also used this document to plan the 1 represent. So as we were talking earlier about
2 building and construction of the protection 2 distributary bay sediments, we know
3 levee. 3 distributary bay sediments consist primarily of
4 Q. Do you know whether the Corps did use 4 mud. But every once in a while there's this
5 this document in building or planning the 5 large scale event in which the river system
6 hurricane protection levees? 6 overtops its bank, it cuts a little hole in the
7 A. I do not. But I can only guess that, 7 natural levee there, and some course grain
8 um -- somebody didn't take them into account, 8 sediment might get out there and be deposited
9 or they wouldn't have put the protection levee 9 in this environment. And then conditions
10 so close to MRGO so that the slumping would 10 return to previous conditions, the levee is
11 have occurred. 11 rebuilt, the major distributary stays in its
12 Q. But you did not evaluate whether the 12 pathway and more interbay sediment are
13 Corps looked at that? 13 deposited. So the whole thickness of sediments
14 A. No, I have not. 14 is mostly mud, but there's a little bit of sand
15 Q. So where you -- in looking at Table 15 involved. And so not every environment is a
16 6.1, the column lithology, it looks like there 16 pure environment, there is some intermingling
17 are generally a mixture of symbols for each row 17 of other types of environments.
18 of the table, and then you give one color 18 And so to some extent people are
19 symbol that corresponds to each row. How did 19 lumpers, they'll take a group of sediment and
20 you approach the rows where there are mixed -- 20 say, okay, I know this is an interdistributary
21 in the black and white symbols, some stand for 21 bay and every once in a while there's a little
22 clay, silt, sand, organic material or shells. 22 bit of crevasse getting in there. But that
23 How did you decide what, um -- I guess, okay, 23 whole column then becomes interdistributary
24 so your colors don't necessarily correspond to 24 bay. And that's why when you look at the
25 the legend on the original document, is that 25 percentages of sand, silt and clay there,

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1 that's giving you the percent of materials that 1 point. And so we've got a wedge of sediment
2 are found in that environment. 2 that's being deposited in advance of this
3 So for example, the Pleistocene in 3 distributary getting to that position. That's
4 this area consists of mostly clay, it consists 4 why the prodelta clays thicken in a seaward
5 of a little bit of silt and about maybe 5 direction. They consist of the sediment that
6 20 percent sand. In the next environment, the 6 was deposited in front of the distributary
7 prodelta, that's the area furthest away from 7 filling in that water column. On top of those
8 the delta, furthest out in the Gulf of Mexico, 8 are delta front and distributary mouth bars and
9 you can see there that that's almost entirely 9 the assembly of other types of sediment.
10 clay. That's the area that sediment is 10 Q. Okay. And so your colored key shows
11 deposited very far away from any energy source 11 the different types of geological layer, and
12 of the river. So that's material of finest 12 then the cores lithology from the underlying
13 grain material that kind of floats out there as 13 document shows what type -- or what percentage
14 a cloud and it very slowly works it's way 14 of clay, silt, sand, organic material or shell
15 through the water column and it's deposited. 15 they found in each of those layers? Is that
16 So that's the prodelta. 16 right?
17 So each one of these environments has 17 A. Yes. But you have to remember, too,
18 a sedimentary characteristic, and that's what 18 that that's a characterization of many cores.
19 is described here in the lithology. 19 That wouldn't be of any one core. Again, that
20 Q. Okay. 20 would be the average amount of sand, the
21 A. Okay? 21 average amount of clay.
22 Q. Thank you for explaining that despite 22 Q. Uh-huh.
23 my ability to ask a logical question. 23 A. So even that is averaged. In some
24 Okay. So I think your explanation 24 areas you just get pure clay. In some areas
25 made sense. And then my other question related 25 you may get a lot more sand if we're talking
Page 119 Page 121
1 to that, then -- well, just now you mentioned, 1 about an interdistributary bay.
2 for example, the prodelta clays as being 2 Q. And I would think then also in terms
3 something that's farther out into the gulf? Is 3 of your diagrams beginning on Page 6-3 that
4 that right? 4 show the elevation of different layers, that
5 A. Right. 5 that also has to be some kind of average based
6 Q. But you have it as part of each of 6 on the cores that were available? Is that
7 your diagrams between Pages 6-3 and 6-9. 7 correct?
8 A. Right. 8 A. Well, only the interpretation between
9 Q. But it appears as you get deeper and 9 them. I mean, in each one of these areas there
10 deeper -- you get thicker as you go farther out 10 are a series of cores that went through this
11 toward the gulf? Is that right? 11 entire section. And that's what was the basis
12 A. Yes. And let me explain what we're 12 of that lithological column. And then there
13 doing. What we're doing is, this whole 13 was interpretation or interpolation between
14 progradation of a delta lobe starts at a -- 14 those. The fact that these are almost
15 say, a mainland position and slowly progrades 15 horizontally continuous knows that the
16 out into the Gulf of Mexico. I mean, look at 16 interpolation was -- you didn't take a lot of,
17 how far the bird foot delta is today from the 17 um -- imagination to draw these lines is what
18 surrounding land mass. I mean, that has really 18 I'm getting at. And the fact that even -- see
19 prograded some distance away from what we refer 19 this dipping down at Bayou Bienvenue? I mean,
20 to as the wetlands area. 20 that was only based on data. That's the only
21 And understanding that, that when it 21 reason they would have drawn that line which
22 was in a much more landward position, those 22 they did.
23 clays were being deposited. And so it slowly 23 The same thing in these two areas
24 fills up the water column with clay material 24 here. These are old distributaries,
25 until the mouth of the river arrives at that 25 distributary point bars.

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1 Q. So the pictures that begin on Page 1 A. Mud is a composition of clay and silt.
2 6-3 -- 2 Q. Okay. Okay. So the interdistributary
3 A. The cross-sections. 3 trough is, as depicted in the figure -- or
4 Q. -- the cross-sections, did those come 4 Table 6.1, primarily clay --
5 from the Corps of Engineers' 1958 document? 5 A. Correct.
6 A. Yes. 6 Q. -- with some silt.
7 Q. Okay. So you did not -- you just 7 A. Very low energy environment.
8 changed the colors? Is that right? 8 Remember, we can equate energy with grain size.
9 A. Yes. Now, let me say this: There was 9 So when we don't have tidal currents, when we
10 some -- in the cores that they provided there 10 don't have a great of wave activity, we're
11 were some inconsistencies, and so to look at 11 going to find fine grain sediment. When we get
12 those inconsistencies we actually looked at a 12 closer to that river the grain size increases.
13 little bit this time of additional information 13 MR. STEVENS:
14 that came from Frazier. Remember that last 14 Got that?
15 plate we looked at? 15 MS. MILLER:
16 Frazier was a guy that did a great 16 Okay. I'm happy to go ahead and
17 deal of study of this region, and he had 17 take a lunch break if that works for
18 cross-sections, too. And so we used a little 18 everyone else.
19 bit of his work to make these two. But 19 MR. STEVENS:
20 predominantly, it came from the Army Corps of 20 I'm happy if you're happy.
21 Engineers' reference that I have cited in that 21 (Lunch break.)
22 text. 22 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER:
23 Q. Okay. The cores that Frazier had 23 Q. Dr. FitzGerald, you handed me two
24 taken and evaluated, are those discussed in the 24 documents that you got during the lunch break.
25 same publication from which Exhibit 5 was 25 One of them has on the first page, on the top,
Page 123 Page 125
1 taken? 1 MRGO Maintenance Exhibit A, and it goes
2 A. I believe so. 2 through -- the last one is 1958 to 1965,
3 Q. Okay. So you had described the 3 Exhibit F. And that one I guess the first page
4 interdistributary section as being primarily 4 is titled MRGO Maintenance Exhibit A and the
5 fine grind sand? Is that right? 5 last page is title MRGO Construction Dredging
6 A. No. Mud. Mud is a category of silt 6 1958 to 1965, Exhibit F. Can you tell me where
7 and clay. You put silt and clay together, you 7 you got this document?
8 get mud. Sand is -- you know, it's the stuff 8 A. It was sent to me from -- by the team.
9 you find on beaches. 9 By our team of lawyers.
10 Q. Okay. So by fine grained mud, that 10 Q. And do you know -- do you recall when
11 has nothing -- that -- I guess do you have mud 11 it was stent to you?
12 that is something other than fine grained? 12 A. Actually, a series of dredging reports
13 A. No. Well, there's -- you know, if mud 13 were sent me, and I just remembered that
14 is going to contain both clay and silt, you can 14 there's one more but I forgot to bring it. So
15 have a silty mud or a clayey mud. 15 I can get that at break. So there is one more
16 Q. Is silty more fine than clayey? 16 that's sitting out there, but they were sent to
17 A. No. The size categories go mud is the 17 me last summer.
18 finest, that's like flour, and something with a 18 Q. Okay. On the bottom left-hand corner
19 little bit of grit in it gets into silt size, 19 of at least some of these pages, I think maybe
20 and then we moved up into sand. And anything 20 even all of them is the date 9/11/2008. Do you
21 larger than sand is gravel, and there's 21 know why that date is there?
22 different size classes of gravel starting with 22 A. When it was sent to me? I don't know.
23 granules, then we move into pebbles, then 23 Q. Okay. So it doesn't necessarily mean
24 cobbles, then boulders. 24 that was the date it was printed or --
25 Q. Okay. And clay fits in with mud? 25 A. I don't know.

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1 Q. -- produced or -- okay. You don't 1 for instance, they will break the channel into
2 know what that date is? 2 smaller subdivisions so you can see exactly
3 A. No. 3 where the sediment came from. There's a few
4 Q. So it could have been sent to you in 4 differences. By and large, they're pretty
5 September, 2008? 5 consistent.
6 A. Very well could have been. 6 Q. And this document, on the last column,
7 Q. Okay. So this -- if it was sent to 7 on the first page at least, refers to a source
8 you in September of 2008, that would have been 8 document. Did you review any of those source
9 after you produced your expert report, though, 9 documents?
10 right? 10 A. No.
11 A. Yes. Now I did get some records after 11 Q. So those charts given to you by the
12 that. 12 plaintiffs' attorneys regarding dredging, that
13 Q. Okay. What other records did you get 13 was something you used in creating your expert
14 after producing your expert report? 14 report?
15 A. Well, we talked about the depositions, 15 A. That table that we looked at, yes.
16 the expert reports themselves. 16 Q. Okay. The table that involved Breton
17 Q. Uh-huh. 17 Island and dredging events related to that?
18 A. And then there's materials that we've 18 A. Right. Determining specifically the
19 simply acquired as part of learning about our 19 volumes. Now, we're also using that
20 counterparts at the Army Corps and the USGS, 20 information to do some correlations we also
21 what they thought about things. 21 talked about earlier looking at the amount of
22 Q. Can you describe -- what do you mean 22 dredging, the channel widening, the levee
23 by acquired? Where did you acquire these 23 heights, the geology, those sorts of things.
24 materials from? 24 Q. Can you explain more about what it is
25 A. Well, we looked them up. There was 25 you're looking at in terms of that correlation?
Page 127 Page 129
1 that document that I believe that Shea Penland 1 A. We're looking to see whether there is
2 and Dale Britsch produced concerning land loss, 2 a correlation between the levee height, the
3 wetland loss. I gazed at that. John Barras, 3 geology and the amount of dredging that was
4 um -- has a lot of stuff on websites, different 4 done there. And the idea is that we know that
5 USGS websites, about land loss. Looked at some 5 this 17-foot high protection levee exerted a
6 of those things. 6 great deal of weight on the adjacent wetland
7 Q. So were you primarily looking at 7 platform, and as that sediment -- that
8 publications authored by experts for the United 8 interdistributary bay sediment is loaded, we've
9 States? 9 talked about it moving out laterally and
10 A. Yes. 10 creating slump blocks that probably have moved
11 Q. And did you learn anything from that 11 out into the channel. So maybe, perhaps, those
12 research that impacts the opinions you've 12 areas we would see greater dredging activity.
13 expressed in your expert report? 13 Perhaps those areas are lower than adjacent
14 A. No. I don't believe so. 14 regions of the levee.
15 Q. The other -- so the document that you 15 Q. And by those areas, what specifically
16 gave me that you obtained after the break, that 16 do you mean?
17 you say is titled MRGO Maintenance Exhibit A on 17 A. I mean the areas that -- we want to
18 the first page, and you say that this is a 18 see whether there's a correlation between levee
19 record of dredging events? 19 height, type of sediment and dredging activity.
20 A. It's one of the records of dredging 20 The correlation among those parameters we're
21 events, right. 21 investigating. We don't know whether we'll
22 Q. So you were given a number of tables 22 find anything, but we want to look at it.
23 like this from the plaintiffs' attorneys? 23 Q. And so are there -- are you looking at
24 A. Correct. And by and large they all 24 areas where the levee was -- well, first of
25 have the same thing. There's a few nuances; 25 all, by levee height are you looking at

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1 current, present day 2008 levee height? 1 occurs because of the pressure, the weight of
2 A. We're looking at the levee heights 2 the levee on top of the materials that make up
3 that were measured during the lidar surveys. 3 the ground --
4 And we wouldn't look at just locations. We'd 4 A. The wetlands.
5 look at the entire reach. 5 Q. -- um -- is it your hypothesis that
6 Q. And by entire reach, do you mean -- 6 there may be more slumping in areas where the
7 A. 2. 7 levee is higher?
8 Q. So the section of levees that goes 8 A. We don't have a hypothesis right now.
9 from approximately the GIWW south along the 9 We're just looking at the correlation of these
10 MRGO? 10 three seemingly independent variables.
11 A. Right. That's where our focus is 11 Q. And how does the dredging -- the
12 right now. Maybe it will expand up to Reach 1, 12 dredging varies by quantity of dredging that
13 I don't know. It's just something we're 13 occurred? Is that how that factor varies?
14 looking into right now. 14 A. The frequency and quantity of material
15 Q. And what is the date of the LIDAR data 15 that is moved is documented in these dredging
16 that you're using to look at this? 16 reports.
17 A. I think it's 2002 or 2005. 17 Q. Okay. Did someone specifically ask
18 Q. Is the 2005 pre or post-Katrina? 18 you to look into this correlation?
19 A. Post-Katrina. 19 A. No.
20 Q. And the group that's looking at this, 20 Q. Is this something you decided to do on
21 I think you said it's yourself and the other 21 your own?
22 people listed as your coauthors on your expert 22 A. It was actually the brainchild of Mike
23 report? Is that -- 23 Miner, who was looking at these lidar reports.
24 A. Correct. 24 And we got to talking about it and figured that
25 Q. Are you working with any other experts 25 we might look at any relationship that might
Page 131 Page 133
1 for the plaintiffs in this litigation on that 1 exist.
2 effort? 2 Q. Have you at this time worked with Chad
3 A. Not presently. 3 Morris in any fashion on either your or his
4 Q. Do you anticipate that you will 4 expert report?
5 collaborate with other experts? 5 A. No. I mean, we exchanged E-mails and
6 A. Only if I suppose we start finding -- 6 things.
7 only if find there are some correspondence 7 I was at a meeting here with Paul
8 among those parameters we may bring in Chad 8 Kemp, but it was mostly an information meeting.
9 Morris and Paul Kemp and those folks. Bob Bea. 9 We were n't producing much of the conversation,
10 Q. And is it your -- okay, you've named 10 we were listening. I had some casual
11 three factors that you're looking to see 11 conversations with him about the funneling
12 whether there's a correlation among them, levee 12 effect, with Paul Kemp, but -- and I'd have to
13 height, type of sediment and dredging? Is that 13 go back and look at the E-mails that I had with
14 right? 14 Chad Morris, but most of our stuff has been
15 A. Dredging activity, the volume of the 15 pretty independent.
16 sediment that was removed. 16 Q. Uh-huh. So I asked you about the
17 Q. And is the levee height basically a 17 storm surge modelers. Did you provide any
18 constant? 18 information to other experts in the preparation
19 A. Not from the lidar surveys I've seen. 19 of their report, like Paul Kemp or Bob Bea?
20 Q. Okay. So are you looking, then, at 20 A. No, we just produced a report. What
21 whether these sloughing did you call it -- is 21 they did with it is, um -- was their business.
22 that the right word? 22 Q. After you produced your report, did
23 A. Slumping. 23 any of the other experts call you to ask
24 Q. Slumping. Sorry. So the slumping 24 questions about it?
25 that you have expressed the opinion that that 25 A. No.

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1 Q. And none of them asked you for 1 A. Yes.
2 additional information? 2 Q. Where you have the red arrow that says
3 A. No. The only person we might have had 3 loading, does that refer to the -- only the
4 some conversations were with John Day and 4 dredge spoil from creation of the MRGO
5 Shaffer, talking about habitat sort of things. 5 initially or -- well, I guess can you tell me
6 But nothing terribly substantive. 6 what you're talking about there as to what's
7 Q. Do you remember when those 7 causing the loading?
8 conversations may have occurred? 8 A. Well, as it says there in the figure
9 A. John and I were at a AMQUA conference 9 caption, it's a conceptual model showing
10 American Quaternary Association. It comprises 10 pictorially what I had discussed earlier about
11 the Holocene and Pleistocene periods. Um -- 11 the weight that was added during the dredging
12 and we were at a conference at Penn State. We 12 of MRGO, first of all in the form of dredge
13 were giving invited talks, and so we had some 13 spoil, and subsequently in the construction of
14 conversations then. And that was last June. 14 the protection dike/levee. And so it shows
15 Q. After producing your reports have you 15 that there's upwards of 17 feet high of
16 had conversations with them? 16 sediment that has been loaded next to MRGO.
17 A. I might have talked to them once or 17 That weight of sediment is producing a loading
18 twice. Um -- you know, in addition to this 18 of the underlying sediments, and that sediment
19 group here, this meeting, you know, it's -- 19 that's described as interdistributary, that has
20 people working backbarrier environments bunch 20 been defined by the Army Corps of Engineers as
21 into each other at meetings and conferences and 21 having little strength, moves laterally toward
22 those sorts of things. 22 MRGO. What isn't shown there is the formation
23 Q. Are you an engineer? 23 of slump blocks.
24 A. No, I'm not. I'm a geologist. Ph.D. 24 Q. Okay. So you have -- on the sort of
25 in geology. Master's degree in geological 25 the top left part of that diagram, where it
Page 135 Page 137
1 oceanography. 1 says dredged spoil, initially there was some
2 Q. So do you have experience designing 2 loading that occurred simply from the placement
3 levees? 3 of spoil itself, and then additional loading
4 A. No. 4 that occurred which the hurricane protection
5 Q. Have you in your work, in your 5 levees were built?
6 professional career, had the occasion to 6 A. That design memorandum described those
7 evaluate levees and their -- well, levees in 7 dredge spoils as being anywhere from six to
8 general? 8 twelve feet in elevation. And so yes, indeed
9 MR. DUDENHEFER: 9 that would have loaded the adjacent area. And
10 Object to form. 10 then on top of that was put the protection
11 A. Well, these levees really are dikes, 11 levee.
12 not levees. Levels are things that occur 12 Q. Okay. Which in your terminology we
13 naturally along river systems due to flood 13 should be referring to as a protection dike?
14 events? They build up gradually over time. 14 A. It's a dike.
15 Those are really dikes. 15 Q. But if I say levee you'll
16 But given that usage that everybody 16 understand --
17 has, I don't think I've specifically evaluated 17 A. Absolutely.
18 a dike. I've certainly been aware of them, 18 Q. -- that I mean the hurricane
19 they're an important part of the work we looked 19 protection levee? Okay.
20 at in the Friesian Islands. And I think that's 20 You also have in your caption for that
21 all. 21 figure, which is 6.6, modern channel
22 Q. So on Page 6-14 of your report you 22 cross-section taken from 2008 bathymetric
23 have a diagram that is -- well, seems to follow 23 survey conducted by Environmental Sciences
24 the same legend as the cross-sections that we 24 Services, Inc. What is the survey that you're
25 were looking at that begin on Page 6-3. 25 referencing there?

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1 A. That's Es2. That's the group that -- 1 never got the specifics from him.
2 whom I'm working for. And they were 2 Q. Okay.
3 commissioned to do a bathymetric survey of MRGO 3 A. I in fact asked him, when I looked at
4 to determine the depths along MRGO, as I 4 this cross-section, how does he know it had
5 understand it. 5 this sort of cross-section? And he said,
6 Q. Do you know who commissioned them to 6 because we did a bathymetric survey of it.
7 do that? 7 Q. In that same Figure 6.6, you have the
8 A. Um -- it was probably the team of 8 caption there bank failure due to natural and
9 lawyers. 9 vessel wave attack. Is that a different
10 Q. Okay. And did you, yourself, review 10 process than the slumping due to loading?
11 that survey? 11 A. Yes.
12 A. No, I have not. I was not part of 12 Q. And that is what you described as
13 that effort. 13 happening -- or I think, anyway, you described
14 Q. Who was part of that effort? 14 a little bit already, that as natural -- as
15 A. Mike Miner, I believe, led that 15 wind hits the water there are natural -- well,
16 effort. 16 can you just explain what you mean by bank
17 Q. And who then, if you know, evaluated 17 failure due to natural and vessel wave attack?
18 the results of that survey? 18 A. I think what Mike is meaning there is,
19 A. Um -- Mike Miner put together this 19 um -- bank erosion. Bank erosion stems from,
20 diagram, so he's the one that evaluated it. 20 specifically on the west side -- I mean on the
21 Q. Okay. 21 east side, he's looking at wind-generated waves
22 A. And Mike Miner is, um -- has done a 22 blowing across MRGO, generating short period
23 great deal of bathymetric survey work in 23 waves, angular wave attack and erosion of that
24 conjunction with the Army Corps of Engineers. 24 wetland substrate. At the same time, the
25 They have mapped almost the entire, um -- 25 vessels going through there, the large vessels,
Page 139 Page 141
1 nearshore coastline of Louisiana, in 1 create a pressure wake and then an actual wake
2 cooperation with the Army Corps of Engineers. 2 due to the ship carving through the water, the
3 Army Corps of Engineers have done the offshore 3 hull carving through the water. And so there's
4 part, and Mike Miner and the group from PIES 4 two wave fronts that come in there, and they
5 and UNO have done the inshore areas. 5 will also attack -- they're short period waves,
6 Q. The specific survey referenced in the 6 as well, and they will also attack and erode
7 caption for Figure 6.6 was one conducted 7 the adjacent wetland substrate.
8 specifically for this expert report? Is that 8 Q. And those two types of waves are
9 right? 9 separate from anything that occurs during
10 A. Yes. This was -- this particular 10 storms, is that right?
11 study that Mike was involved was outside of the 11 A. Well, like I said, wind -- or the
12 cooperative effort between UNO and the Army 12 difference between a storm and local winds is
13 Corps of Engineers. 13 the wind velocity. So it's -- the process is
14 Q. And do you know anything about the 14 the same. The energy from the wind is being
15 parameters of that survey? 15 parted to the water surface and that generates
16 A. No, I do not. 16 a wave-like form which eventually breaks when
17 Q. So do you know whether it covered the 17 it runs out of water.
18 entire channel or only certain sections of it? 18 Q. So the erosion caused by waves occurs
19 A. I don't know that. No. It's my 19 due to vessels, non storm conditions and then
20 understanding that they covered a good portion 20 also storm conditions? Is that right?
21 of Reach 2. Maybe the entire portion of Reach 21 A. Correct.
22 2. 22 Q. Have you evaluated the extent of bank
23 Q. Okay. How did you come to that 23 erosion that occurred during Hurricane Katrina?
24 understanding? 24 A. No.
25 A. Casual conversations with Mike. But I 25 Q. Do you have an opinion that bank

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1 erosion would have occurred during Hurricane 1 in some cases exceed the shear strength of the
2 Katrina? 2 sediments and can cause scouring.
3 A. Oh, absolutely it would have occurred. 3 Q. Have you done any research on that
4 Q. So during most any storm that might 4 area?
5 cause -- well, is it your opinion that any 5 A. Along MRGO?
6 storm might -- or would cause some erosion of 6 Q. Either along MRGO or elsewhere?
7 the banks? 7 A. I've done studies like that in
8 A. Yes, but it's the magnitude of 8 Caernarvon.
9 erosion. During Hurricane Katrina we had 9 Q. And have you done any studies along
10 superimposed on top of the waves and we had a 10 the MRGO?
11 storm surge the lasted for a long period of 11 A. No.
12 time. And so the waves were breaking right on 12 Q. You describe on Page 6-11 that the
13 the levee for a long period of time. Whereas 13 elevated Pleistocene terraces along the
14 under normal storm conditions they break along 14 northern part of the basin, together with the
15 the bank, break along that scarp there that's 15 elevated natural levee ridges of the
16 been formed along the western side. But during 16 St. Bernard Delta in the southern part of the
17 Hurricane Katrina, because of the storm surge 17 basin, form a restricted pathway through which
18 that occurred at the same time, waves were 18 storm surges from the Gulf of Mexico can enter
19 breaking much higher up and directly on the 19 Lake Pontchartrain. Between 1900 and the time
20 levee, attacking it. 20 of MRGO construction, three major hurricanes
21 Q. Does the storm surge itself contribute 21 produced exceptional storm surge levels.
22 to erosion of the banks? 22 Can you describe what those storms
23 A. It facilities the waves to break on 23 were?
24 it. It's a water level. 24 A. Those were the 1916 -- two 1916
25 Q. Uh-huh. When it's described that 25 hurricanes and the 1947.
Page 143 Page 145
1 hurricanes can cause marsh scour, is that a 1 Q. And do you know, have you evaluated
2 process you're familiar with? 2 the extent of those storm surge from those
3 A. Yes. 3 storms?
4 Q. And is that something that would occur 4 A. No, I haven't.
5 on the bank of the channel as well as other 5 Q. So what are you basing this statement
6 parts of the marsh area? 6 on?
7 A. It's a little bit different process. 7 A. Their pathway and their category,
8 You've got an actual breaking wave against the 8 their magnitude.
9 banking, and so you've got all that energy 9 Q. So you're offering the opinion that
10 being expended at once when a wave breaks. We 10 those three storms resulted in a funneling
11 have wave scour -- it is sometimes due to the 11 along the natural levee ridges of the
12 current that that storm surge is generating. 12 St. Bernard Delta; is that right?
13 If it gets into a constructed area you can 13 A. Yes.
14 actually get the flow of water. In some 14 MR. DUDENHEFER:
15 instances you simply have a higher level of 15 Object to form.
16 water in conditions that you normally don't 16 A. The, um -- the Pleistocene terraces
17 have that level of water, so the storm surge 17 there, they're elevated areas, and so you can
18 facilitates, as I mentioned earlier, waves to 18 think of that as being a wall, if you will.
19 propagate across this area. And the waves 19 And then MRGO, the dredge spoil would form
20 themselves generate wave orbitals, that is, the 20 another wall. As I mentioned earlier, it
21 movement of the water parcels beneath the wave 21 was -- the design characteristics of that were
22 surface. And those wave orbitals move in 22 anywhere from six to twelve feet. So if we
23 circular patterns. As you get closer to the 23 think of that being one border and we think of
24 bottom they move in more elliptical patterns, 24 the northern area along the Pleistocene uplands
25 and those wave orbitals generate currents which 25 as being another border, where those two meet

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1 is the apex of a funnel. And so if water is 1 fact, that after that dredge spoil was put
2 pushed into that region, as a hurricane would 2 there then we put a protection levee. But if
3 moving in a northerly direction, then you are 3 that protection levee wasn't built there we
4 going to got an increase in storm surge height. 4 still would have had the funneling effect.
5 And I gave examples of that in my expert 5 That's my point.
6 report. 6 Q. Okay. That's what I was trying to
7 Q. So that was a phenomenon that was 7 understand. And is that the reason, what
8 occurring because of the natural geologic 8 you've just explained, about the geologic
9 framework of the area prior to construction of 9 setting of the area and how that impacts the
10 the MRGO, is that right? 10 funneling effect, is that why you've included
11 A. Well, it's the -- what I was talking 11 this section in your report, Part 6?
12 about there, prior to the construction of MRGO, 12 A. Really, Part 7 is where we get into
13 was the fact that if you look at that Diagram 13 the funneling effect.
14 6.4, you can see Lake Borne. Lake Borne is an 14 Q. I'm sorry. That's what I meant. I
15 open body of water. And then to the north 15 was confusing the two areas. What we were just
16 you've got the, um -- you've got the 16 reading from is the end of Part 6. But that, I
17 Pleistocene terrace, um -- and those wetlands, 17 guess, is describing, if I understand you
18 the bridge, if you will. 18 correctly, more the geologic framework and then
19 Q. By bridge you mean between Lake Borgne 19 Part 7 specifically explains why that leads to
20 and Lake Pontchartrain? 20 a funnel? Is that right?
21 A. I mean the bridge between eastern 21 A. Yeah. It sets the groundwork for
22 Orleans and the Pleistocene Highlands there 22 understanding the funnel, the Pleistocene
23 that extend toward Mississippi. 23 terrace in particular.
24 Q. So that's what's referred to as the 24 Q. Okay. And prior to your work on this
25 Rigolets? 25 litigation had you evaluated this particular
Page 147 Page 149
1 A. The Rigolets is a tidal waterway that 1 funnel creation or, um --
2 allows tidal exchange between Lake 2 A. In this region of Louisiana? No.
3 Pontchartrain and Lake Borne. That's a tidal 3 Q. Okay.
4 channel. 4 A. I've looked at funneling effects,
5 Q. But is that the basic location of 5 though.
6 where you mean when you say the bridge? 6 Q. You hadn't evaluated this particular
7 A. Well, the bridge is the wetlands that 7 terrain before?
8 extends all the way from Eastern Orleans all 8 A. No. But I certainly talked about the
9 the way to the -- to Mississippi. 9 funneling effect that occurs in Downtown
10 Q. Okay. 10 Providence due to the '38 hurricane that some
11 A. And it's that piece of land there 11 of the audience is well aware of, and the
12 along with the Pleistocene terrace and the 12 funneling effect that occurred in Buzzards Bay
13 border of, um -- the, um -- western border of 13 due to the constriction caused by the Elizabeth
14 Lake Borne that would have created the funnel 14 Islands and the adjacent mainland.
15 during those pre-MRGO conditions. 15 Q. Uh-huh. Okay. So your evaluation of
16 Q. Okay. And so -- sorry, go ahead of? 16 the funnel is related to the geomorphology but
17 A. And then during the construction of 17 you have not modeled in terms of assessing the
18 MRGO, you elevated that area by building a 18 impact of the funnel on the specific storm
19 dredge spoil somewhere to the elevation from 19 surge of Katrina? You've not done that sort of
20 six to twelve feet, so that would have provided 20 modeling?
21 a much stronger funneling effect. 21 A. No, I've done no hydrodynamic
22 Q. So the placement of the spoil 22 modeling. My interpretation of that is based
23 alongside the channel is what contributed to 23 on the geomorphology, the pathway of the storm,
24 that result? 24 the size of the storm, the duration of the
25 A. Hypothetically, yes. We know, in 25 storm and my general knowledge of water

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1 movements under the influence of hurricane 1 I've tried to emphasize here is that regardless
2 conditions. 2 of whether the protection levee was there or
3 Q. Okay. So the extent to which the MRGO 3 not, the processes that I've described would
4 spoil banks or the later building of the 4 have been operative --
5 hurricane protection system, you have not made 5 Q. Uh-huh.
6 any attempt to quantify the extent to which 6 A. -- because of the spoil bank and
7 those added to the natural funnel, is that 7 because of the enlargement of MRGO to triple
8 right? 8 its size -- width. And then I provided
9 A. I haven't quantified it. But I'd 9 examples of this that I took from the Shore
10 certainly say that it made a substantial 10 Protection Manual.
11 contribution. 11 Q. When you say triple in size, you mean
12 Q. Uh-huh. That each of those two 12 only the -- well, have you made any evaluation
13 subsequent steps made a substantial 13 of the depth of the channel or are you
14 contribution? 14 referencing only the surface, bank to bank,
15 (Brief interruption.) 15 width as tripling?
16 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER: 16 A. The width mostly. But remember, too,
17 Q. Are you saying that first the MRGO 17 I asked Mike how he knew that that
18 spoil bank itself made a substantial 18 cross-section looked like that, and he said
19 contribution to enhancing the natural funneling 19 because he drew it according to the bathymetric
20 framework? Is that right? 20 survey that they took. So when we talk about
21 A. Two things are important in increasing 21 the width, it wasn't just, you know, one foot
22 the storm surge at the funnel. Number one, we 22 across where it had tripled in size and all of
23 have a large open waterway called MRGO that's 23 a sudden went down to forty feet, there was a
24 tripled it's size between its construction and 24 gradual deepening all along that slope there.
25 when Katrina hit. That provided the pathway 25 Q. And that's based on information you
Page 151 Page 153
1 that water could be more easily conveyed into 1 received from Mike Miner from a 2008 survey?
2 the triangle region. So we're filling up that 2 Is that right?
3 area in advance of when the real storm surge 3 A. Correct.
4 hit. Because the storm surge had reached an 4 Q. And did you make any evaluation of how
5 earlier height in Breton Sound. So we already 5 Hurricane Katrina may have impacted that -- the
6 had a water gradient that was pushing water 6 resulting channel configuration?
7 into that area. So that's one effect. And 7 A. I'm not sure I understand your
8 then we have the MRGO high land that exists 8 question fully.
9 next to that which consists of the dredge spoil 9 MR. STEVENS:
10 and the protection levee. 10 I'll second that.
11 Q. Uh-huh. 11 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER:
12 A. And it's the totality of those 12 Q. Did you make any evaluation of whether
13 characteristics and processes that led to a 13 Hurricane Katrina itself impacted the depth or
14 substantial increase in the storm surge. 14 shoaling in the MRGO channel?
15 Q. Your Section 7 of your report focuses 15 A. I'm sure it moved sediment along. I'm
16 on the natural geomorphology of the area as 16 sure that sediment was eroded substantially
17 well as the construction of the spoil bank? Is 17 from the levee. I'm sure that the, um -- that
18 that right? 18 the marsh was torn up a little bit along the
19 A. Correct. 19 sides. We've talked about wave energy and the
20 Q. And do you mention the hurricane 20 importance of that in that process, so I'm sure
21 protection system in this section? 21 there were changes that occurred due to the
22 A. I don't believe so. 22 hurricane. Yes. Undoubtedly that's correct.
23 Q. But you are of the opinion -- 23 Q. On Page 1-1 of your report you have an
24 A. I'll have to read it. I'll read it 24 introduction preface section and you begin
25 for the twelfth time to make sure, but. What 25 Section 1.1 with several opinions. I guess I'd

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1 just like to go through some of these and 1 Number 1, is that rounded up to 3368 in Table
2 determine what -- how it was you came to reach 2 2.1 on the top right-hand block?
3 these conclusions. I guess number one is a 3 A. Yes, it was.
4 good place to start. 4 Q. Okay. So that -- and Table 2.1 says
5 MR. STEVENS: 5 total land and water. So should Opinion
6 No objection. 6 Number 1 really say 2674 for total land?
7 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER: 7 A. No, because that environment was
8 Q. You state that Reaches 1 and 2 of the 8 changed. Once upon a time it was a certain
9 MRGO land cut were dredged through the 9 type of estuarine habitat and then we
10 St. Bernard Delta complex within the larger 10 introduced a lot of saltwater to it and it
11 Mississippi River complex removing 3367.7 acres 11 completely changed it.
12 of coastal habitat. 12 Q. Maybe before we get to changes that
13 A. Correct. 13 happened after construction -- well, okay.
14 Q. So does that refer to the footprint of 14 Table 2.1 you just referred us to is titled
15 the channel through the land cut but not all 15 Direct Impact of the Dredging of the
16 the way out into the gulf? Is that right? 16 Mississippi River Gulf Outlet in Acres. What
17 A. Correct. That's in Number 3. 17 do you consider to be the direct impact?
18 Q. Okay. And how did you get -- how did 18 A. I'm sorry. Could you state that
19 you come to calculate that number? 19 again? I was reading something here. I
20 A. That was done through GIS. Andrew 20 apologize.
21 Milanes did that. 21 Q. What do you consider to be direct
22 Q. And do you know how he came to that 22 impacts of the dredging of the MRGO?
23 number? 23 A. The direct impacts are either the
24 A. Well, as I mentioned earlier, the old 24 removal of land or the change in the original
25 way was to do a cursor and actually follow that 25 conditions of that environment.
Page 155 Page 157
1 footprint. Another way is to have software 1 Q. What do you mean by change in original
2 that is able to image areas and to draw those 2 conditions? What do you mean by that?
3 lines for you. And I believe we used this new 3 A. Well, there were pathways along
4 way. But essentially, lines were drawn which 4 this -- along this cut that consists of small
5 coincide with the cut through the wetlands, and 5 ponds or tidal channels and so on, and so those
6 then polygons were generated from that whose 6 were water. And so that's why we separate it
7 areas were then determined and the ultimate 7 into land and water estuarine habitat. But
8 combined areas were calculated. 8 they're both cut through and deepened and
9 Q. And do you know, then, what it was, 9 changed significantly during the cut of MRGO.
10 though, that was plugged into the GIS software? 10 And in one instance you're a small shallow
11 Like was it based on particular photography or 11 pond, and in another instance you're a fully
12 something else? 12 deep channel. So that's a direct impact.
13 A. Yes. It was photography. 13 Q. Okay. So where you have your land cut
14 Q. And maybe -- I guess I want to make 14 and your water cut, can you tell me which miles
15 sure I understand how the number is listed in 15 of the channel are part of the land cut versus
16 these opinions, how they correlate to the 16 the water cut?
17 remainder of your report. 17 A. Where, there's two different water
18 A. Well, I believe. 18 cuts. There is one major water cut which is
19 Q. Or just where I can find the 19 across Breton Sound, and then there's the small
20 underlying explanation or how you got to these 20 estuarine water cuts of the type and variety I
21 numbers. 21 just described. Those would be the tidal
22 A. Okay. If we go to -- my little pink 22 channels, small ponds and so on.
23 tab here that says direct impact, if you go to 23 Q. So maybe if we turn to Page 2-2,
24 Page 2.3. 24 Figure 2.3, you have a blue section and a green
25 Q. So the number that you have in Opinion 25 section, or blue or purple, I'm not sure.

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1 A. Right. 1 Q. Okay. So in the water cut area, the
2 Q. Does the green section correspond to 2 spoil, even though it may not have ended up
3 what Table 2.1 classifies as the land cut? 3 visibly above the surface of the water --
4 A. The green is the land cut. The blue 4 A. It's under on the water.
5 is the water cut. 5 Q. But it has a footprint that it
6 Q. Okay. So on your Figure 2.3, it looks 6 basically came to rest in, is that right?
7 like around Mile 23 is where you're considering 7 A. Correct.
8 the transition from a land cut to water cut to 8 Q. So if I understand your report and
9 be? 9 Table 2.1 correctly, what you consider to be
10 A. Correct. 10 the direct impact of dredging of the channel is
11 Q. Okay. So your Table 2.1 where you 11 the original dredging -- the original
12 have total land and water habitats removed by 12 construction of the channel, the placement of
13 the land cut channel excavation, that refers to 13 spoil either into an estuarine habitat or marsh
14 the green area on Figure 2.3? Well, I realize 14 habitat, and then also erosion of the banks of
15 there are two green areas, one is the channel 15 the channel over time? Is that right?
16 and one is the -- 16 A. The direct effects -- the direct
17 A. The dredge spoil. 17 effects are the cut that was made either in
18 Q. -- spoil. 18 water or land and where that material was
19 A. Right. 19 placed.
20 Q. But for the channel itself, the green 20 Q. Okay. So you do not consider erosion
21 area is what you're referencing in that -- 21 subsequent to the original cut to be direct
22 A. Correct. 22 impact?
23 Q. -- 3368? 23 A. Then there's the historical direct
24 A. 3368 is the land cut. It's the area 24 impacts. The enlargement, the widening of the
25 in green -- 25 channel through time. The loss -- in this
Page 159 Page 161
1 Q. Okay. 1 brown color, the loss of subsequent channel
2 A. -- that went across marsh areas, small 2 erosion between '65 and 2001 is produced there
3 ponds, tidal channels and that nature. 3 in, I don't know, brownish-orange color. You
4 Q. So the total marsh areas that you 4 guys probably have a different name for it.
5 calculate that it went across is 2674, and then 5 Q. It depends on which printer you're
6 the 694 in Table 2.1 refers to areas that may 6 using. Mine looks kind of pink. But the
7 have been small ponds -- 7 second-to-last row --
8 A. Correct. 8 MR. STEVENS:
9 Q. -- in what's considered the land cut. 9 Harvest gold.
10 A. Correct. 10 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER:
11 Q. Okay. Just want to make sure I 11 Q. Okay. So you consider erosion to be a
12 understood that. So then the 2733 acres from 12 direct impact, is that right?
13 Table 2.1 is what corresponds to the original 13 A. Yes.
14 construction of the channel in what you're 14 Q. Okay. And do you --
15 calling the water cut? 15 A. We're simply talking about time. You
16 A. Right. In Breton Sound. 16 know? You build something and there's the
17 Q. And where you have estuarine habitats 17 instantaneous footprint, and then there's what
18 affected by water cuts, spoil disposal, and you 18 that instantaneous footprint resulted in.
19 list a total of 8928. 19 Q. Uh-huh.
20 A. Right. 20 A. Without, you know, getting cut up with
21 Q. Can you describe what that -- 21 too many definitions of pigeon holes, that's
22 A. The dredge spoil was pumped out of 22 what I'm talking about.
23 that channel cut into the adjacent substrate in 23 Q. Okay. And has your report also
24 Breton Sound, and that spoil area occupies a 24 evaluated indirect impacts?
25 footprint which is 8928 acres in total extent. 25 A. Yeah. Habitat change due to saline

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1 intrusion. 1 changes.
2 Q. So that's what you consider to be 2 Q. Did you I evaluate the -- well, I
3 indirect impact? 3 guess going back to Figure 4.2, on the
4 A. I think it's a direct impact. But 4 right-hand side it says notes, and it lists
5 it's a change in environments. Here we're 5 three things, marsh types taken from a 1949
6 talking about areas that you can -- along MRGO. 6 map, tree and swamp data came from maps dated
7 So these are MRGO impacts. Direct impacts are 7 1948 to 1957, and land/water came from a 2006
8 the dredging of MRGO, and then there's the 8 report. Did you evaluate those underlying
9 subsequent impacts of that saline intrusion 9 maps?
10 caused by MRGO in adjacent areas. 10 A. I was shown -- I was shown images
11 Q. And do you have tables that reflect 11 of -- figures from some of those reports, but
12 what you've calculated for subsequent, um -- 12 most of that manipulation of the maps and data
13 impacts in adjacent areas? 13 were done by Andrew Milanes who is the GIS
14 A. We've got maps that show changes in 14 expert of some 15 years.
15 habitat. 15 Q. Do you know how he transferred those
16 Q. Okay. So that's what begins on Page 16 sources into Figure 4.2?
17 4-3, is that right? 17 A. Well, there's three pieces of
18 A. Yes. 18 information as indicated by the notes there.
19 Q. Sorry. I sort of directed you there 19 There is the land/water interface, and that
20 to make sure I understood what you were talking 20 came from Dale Britsch 's maps. And he got
21 about. But I want to ask you a few more 21 that information from vertical air photographs.
22 questions on Table 2.1. 22 And there's a particular set or individual
23 A. I'll go back. 23 vertical area photographs that were used for
24 Q. You have a number of categories here, 24 those three maps.
25 fresh marsh, intermediate marsh, brackish, 25 The tree and swamp data was obtained
Page 163 Page 165
1 salt, swamp, trees, other land, and water 1 from USGS seven and a half minute or a fifteen
2 estuarine habitat. 2 minute quads, and they have various dates as
3 A. Right. 3 indicated there in 4.2. 1948 to 1957, for
4 Q. How did you -- what did you use to 4 instance, were used for the 1950s pre-MRGO map.
5 come up with the numbers that you include in 5 And the 19 -- the older maps -- these are
6 all those individual categories? 6 mosaics that are actually put together. So one
7 A. The pre-MRGO maps, habitat maps. 7 map doesn't cover this entire area that we're
8 Q. So the Figure 4.2? 8 looking at in 4.2; rather, it's a mosaic of
9 A. Correct. 9 maps. Yeah, it's in the appendix. And you can
10 Q. So was Figure 4.2 basically digitized 10 see that the older -- or the most recent maps
11 or already in a digital format that allowed you 11 are the ones that are closest, for example, to
12 to make the measurements reflected in Table 12 the central wetlands unit.
13 2.1? 13 And then the other ones that we used
14 A. I assume so. Some GIS calculation was 14 is the marsh types. And for the pre-MRGO marsh
15 made to arrive at those numbers. 15 types we used Chabreck. And Chabreck 's book
16 Q. Okay. And was that done by Andrew 16 was a series of marsh type designations that
17 Milanes? 17 were nine in all and was based on muskrat
18 A. Yes. 18 habitat. And so apparently muskrats are very
19 Q. And did Andrew Milanes also create 19 picky in where they want to live, and so he had
20 Figure 4.2? 20 nine different categories of different types of
21 A. Yes. 21 marshes. And there was some interpretation of
22 Q. What was your involvement in creating 22 those nine because in subsequent maps by
23 that Figure 4.2? 23 Chabreck he only used four classification of
24 A. Looking at the trends from map to map 24 marshes. So we had to -- we had to be lump
25 and interpreting what was going on. The 25 some of those categories together to arrive at

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1 just four categories so we could subsequently 1 What page is that on, please?
2 compare the pre-MRGO maps to the subsequent 2 MS. MILLER:
3 post-MRGO maps. 3 2-3.
4 Q. Have you, prior to producing this 4 MR. STEVENS:
5 expert report, ever created this type of 5 Thank you.
6 habitat map? 6 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER:
7 A. We create geomorphic maps. These 7 Q. Based on your habitat map -- I guess
8 happen to be habitat maps. But I'm used to 8 is Table 2.1 based only on Figure 4.2?
9 collecting information, spatial distributed 9 A. I assume so.
10 information, and categorizing it and drawing 10 Q. In terms of where these different
11 line and producing sectors of maps which relate 11 marsh, swamp, trees values come from?
12 to a particular type of geomorphology. In this 12 A. Yeah. Quite honestly, I've never had
13 case they've taken vegetation and used that as 13 this conversation with Andrew, but I believe he
14 a marker to define certain types of 14 must have used that because what else would he
15 environments, because certain plants live in 15 have used?
16 certain types of fresh to saline environments. 16 Q. Okay. Well, my question to you. So I
17 There are indicative plants that are very 17 guess you're surmising, based on what's
18 different depending upon their salt tolerance, 18 included in the report, that Table 2.1 is based
19 and so the categories here that we use, the 19 on Figure 4.2?
20 fresh marsh, intermediate marsh, brackish marsh 20 A. Right. This is the habitat map that
21 and salt marsh are all based on salinity and 21 was created for the conditions prior to MRGO.
22 the types of plants that occupy those types of 22 And if we're trying to relate what conditions
23 environments. 23 were dug up during the construction of the
24 Q. And do you have knowledge of the 24 MRGO, this is the map I believe he would have
25 elevations of the areas that comprise those 25 used.
Page 167 Page 169
1 different marsh environments? 1 Q. Okay. But you didn't actually do this
2 A. No. We have the 40 Arpent, um -- 2 particular evaluation yourself; is that right?
3 levee there. That's that blue line that 3 A. I didn't -- I did not come up with
4 extends along that area. And we know that that 4 these units, that was all GIS and Andrew did
5 area, inshore of that gradually grades upward 5 that with probably the help of Karen.
6 to the height of the levee along the 6 Q. Okay. And by the units, do you mean
7 Mississippi, and it gradually grades downward 7 the way Figure 4.2 is broken down into, for
8 to these other lower lying regions. So but 8 example, St. Bernard area, central wetlands,
9 real detailed topographic data I do not have. 9 south Lake Borne?
10 Q. Okay. So you didn't evaluate any 10 A. No, I was really talking about the
11 elevation data for preparation of this report? 11 different types of environments, fresh marsh,
12 A. No. All I can tell you is it's damned 12 intermediate marsh, brackish marsh. Because if
13 flat out there. I will go on and say that the 13 you look along the Table 2.1, along the top
14 higher topography around old distributaries 14 there, we're talking about fresh marsh,
15 such as Bayou La Loutre, and that's where we 15 intermediate marsh, brackish marsh. They are
16 find different types of habitats, that's where 16 the same units that we use to describe the
17 we tend to find trees and swamps. So when you 17 environments on these maps.
18 say that, did I have any topographic control? 18 Q. Right. Okay. And so prior to
19 No, but there's certainly an indication by the 19 becoming involved in this litigation, had you
20 morphology and subsequent vegetation that's 20 done any evaluation of the type of marsh, swamp
21 growing on top of those geomorphic features 21 or other environments in the vicinity of the
22 that I recognize. 22 MRGO prior to its construction?
23 Q. I'd like to go back to Table 2.1 I 23 A. On the, um -- on the west side, I'd
24 think it was. Based on your -- 24 looked at the Caernarvon area, made transects
25 MR. STEVENS: 25 from the Mississippi toward Bayou La Loutre,

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1 and looked at different types of vegetation and 1 types of different marsh environment following
2 marshes, took sediment cores and looked at the 2 O'Neill 's studies, beginning in 1968.
3 stratigraphy of the area and so on. 3 Q. Okay. So going back to what you've
4 Q. I gather that was all subsequent to 4 calculated then in Table 2.1, to the best of
5 construction of the MRGO. 5 your knowledge you have determined that the
6 A. Yes. 6 initial construction of the MRGO and the
7 (Off the record.) 7 placement of spoil -- let's see. Okay. Maybe
8 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER: 8 I'll to break it down into smaller parts.
9 Q. So your knowledge of the 1950s 9 So your determination is that the
10 habitats reflected a Figure 4.2 does not extend 10 initial cutting of the channel took out
11 beyond what is reflected in that figure? Is 11 2674 acres of land, but that it impacted some
12 that right? 12 water areas --
13 A. I'm not sure I understand that 13 A. Right. It --
14 question. 14 Q. I guess so you would need to add the
15 Q. Will, do you have any knowledge of the 15 3368 and then 2733 to get the areas that were
16 habitat types prior to construction of the MRGO 16 impacted by the initial cut of the channel? Is
17 other than what's reflected in Figure 4.2? 17 that right?
18 A. Not necessarily that specific 18 A. No. No.
19 location. I am familiar with these different 19 Q. Sorry. Okay. How do you get --
20 types of marshes, if that is your question. 20 A. Let's -- if we can just flip back and
21 Q. But in the vicinity of the MRGO and 21 forth I think I can help us move along here.
22 the Lake Pontchartrain Basin generally, you 22 Q. Okay. I mean, basically what I'm
23 have not evaluated historical habitat 23 looking for is the footprint from the initial
24 information? Is that right? 24 cut --
25 A. Not prior to this case. 25 A. I know.
Page 171 Page 173
1 Q. Okay. And for this case, it was 1 Q. -- what you've calculated for the
2 Andrew Milanes that did the evaluation and 2 acreage and then also the spoil.
3 you -- your opinion relies on what's reflected 3 A. Right. I think we can do that. If
4 in these Figures 4.2, 4.3 and 4.4 based on the 4 you look at Figure 4-2 and look at that line
5 work of Andrew Milanes? Is that right? 5 that is the eastern extent of the central
6 A. Yes. But I did also mention that he 6 wetlands--
7 showed me various figures and various 7 Q. Uh-huh. So it separates central
8 informations from these data sets that I 8 wetlands and south Lake Borne?
9 mentioned; for example, he showed me the 9 A. That's MRGO.
10 information from O'Neill with his, um -- 10 Q. Right.
11 muskrat book. We went through some of that 11 A. That's MRGO. And you can see that
12 material. 12 that covers or tracks through an area of
13 Q. And do you know how Mr. Milanes chose 13 brackish marsh until we get up to the
14 what sources to use to create his habitat maps? 14 Intracoastal waterway.
15 A. We talked about that. It was the only 15 Q. Uh-huh.
16 available sources that existed at that time. 16 A. All right?
17 There's just very few people that went through 17 Q. Uh-huh.
18 this area and noted the different types of 18 A. It does eventually go through. It
19 vegetation. And so other than O'Neill, um -- I 19 goes across some swamp area and so on. Now if
20 think even subsequent people who may have 20 we look at that table again, and you can see
21 produced maps used O'Neill 's original data 21 that out of the 2674 total land acres, most of
22 sets. 22 it is brackish marsh.
23 Q. Uh-huh. 23 Q. Right. Okay.
24 A. So -- and then Chabreck is the, um -- 24 A. And then there's some water/estuarine
25 is the source that everybody uses for that 25 environments and so on.

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1 Q. Uh-huh. 1 Q. So almost where the GIWW intersects
2 A. There's some swamp, as I mentioned, 2 the IHNC?
3 there's some salt marsh and so on, but the 3 A. Right.
4 majority is brackish marsh, and that what this 4 Q. Is that right? Okay. So then when
5 table shows. And that's what's exactly shown 5 you get down to the -- I've already forgotten
6 on this map. 6 the golden orange or whatever color it was
7 Q. Okay. So the location of the -- for 7 suggested --
8 example, the 13 acres of fresh marsh, would 8 A. Harvest --
9 that be in the vicinity of where the MRGO and 9 MR. STEVENS:
10 GIWW are on the same what's considered Reach 1? 10 Harvest gold.
11 A. Yes. 11 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER:
12 Q. Okay. And the same with, um -- so the 12 Q. -- the loss by subsequent channel
13 salt marsh -- you identified the brackish marsh 13 erosion, how is it you're able to determine the
14 as being the blue -- 14 area on the map that that corresponds to?
15 A. Bluish green. 15 A. We looked at the enlargement of MRGO
16 Q. -- area. Salt marsh, then, would be 16 and see what sort of environment that extends
17 closer towards the gulf? 17 onto.
18 A. Right. It's that red. It's red in 18 Q. And what did you use to make that
19 mine. 19 evaluation, something other than Figure 4.2?
20 Q. And the swamp, the 308 acres of swamp, 20 A. Well, it depends when it occurred. It
21 would that also be -- 21 gradually got wider, and so the environment
22 A. That's across -- there's some in the 22 that -- you can see that it mostly widened to
23 Intracoastal Waterway. It also crosses Bayou 23 the east. Okay?
24 La Loutre. 24 Q. Uh-huh. Where do we see that?
25 Q. Okay. And trees, 18 acres of trees, 25 A. Well, I just know it. When we looked
Page 175 Page 177
1 how do you differentiate trees and swamp? 1 at the vertical aerial photographs and we
2 A. Standing water. Hardwood vegetation 2 looked at the footprint of MRGO, you can see
3 and other sorts of trees and so on are -- and 3 that it had a gradual widening to the east of
4 then we have trees that live in standing water 4 22 feet per year. On the west side it was
5 like the cypress. At least part of the year 5 11 feet per year. The total increase was 1320,
6 they stand in water. 6 which I've said is, you know, double the
7 Q. So under Note Number 2 on Figure 4.2, 7 width -- well, triple the width, but --
8 it says tree and swamp data were digitized from 8 Q. Well --
9 the USGS maps -- topographic maps. Do those 9 A. And so if that's all eroding to the
10 maps reflect a separate tree versus swamp 10 east, you can see that's the green color,
11 designation? 11 that's the brackish marsh. That's my point.
12 A. Yes. 12 Q. Okay. Well, you have some -- okay.
13 Q. Okay. So Andrew Milanes didn't 13 But you don't have one map in your report that
14 make -- he just copied it from the map? Or do 14 shows exactly where the acres that are in the
15 you know whether he evaluated where to 15 loss by subsequent channel erosion row of Table
16 interpret trees versus swamp? 16 2.1 are located?
17 A. He based it on the symbols that he 17 A. It's shown in the -- it's shown on the
18 found on the map. And those symbols coincided 18 appendix. You see all these guys here? That
19 with trees versus swamp. 19 shows a blow-by-blow description of the 2005,
20 Q. So there were only 18 acres of trees 20 um -- imprint, or footprint, rather, of MRGO
21 on the land cut. Do you know where those were? 21 laid on top of different photography --
22 A. Um -- it's way -- you see where 22 Q. Do these photographs --
23 Orleans east? 23 A. -- for different sections.
24 Q. Uh-huh. 24 Q. Do these tell us the habitat types of
25 A. You see that little area there? 25 each of these sections?

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1 A. You'd have to go back to the maps, as 1 A. Correct.
2 I said. But by and large, when it's eroding to 2 Q. And how is it that you know that those
3 the east, and most of the erosion occurred to 3 go off to end up at six thousand feet?
4 the east although we did 11 feet per year on 4 A. We measured them.
5 the west side, we're eroding into estuarine 5 Q. Who measured them?
6 environments. I mean brackish water 6 A. Andrew.
7 environments. 7 Q. How did he measure them?
8 Q. And I think you acknowledge in your 8 A. GIS.
9 report that some of that erosion there were 9 Q. And?
10 preexisting ponds or areas next to the channel 10 A. You can --
11 that the bank eroded into -- 11 Q. Was it all based on photographs like
12 A. Right. 12 the one shown in Figure 2.18 on Page 2-13?
13 Q. -- so not all of the measurements -- 13 A. Correct.
14 some of what constitutes your tripling in width 14 Q. And how did you obtain the photographs
15 was perhaps part of a preexisting pond? Is 15 that are reflected on Pages 2-10 through 2-13?
16 that right? 16 A. Those are -- I don't know exactly, but
17 A. Well, that's why I've been very 17 generally speaking these are commercially
18 careful not to use the word erosion. I've been 18 available photographs that you can -- that are
19 using widening. Channel widening. So when 19 produced by various agencies and you can simply
20 that little land bridge is eroded away, then it 20 purchase them or download them.
21 widens a whole bunch. But that's important 21 Q. Do you know the date of the
22 because regardless of the process, regardless 22 photograph?
23 of what was there, it increases the fetch 23 A. Um -- I believe it's 2005-2006, but
24 dramatically in some of these areas. In some 24 I'm not absolutely sure. It would have to be
25 of the areas it's more than six thousand feet 25 at least 2005 because -- it probably is 2005
Page 179 Page 181
1 wide where it had an original footprint of six 1 because that's the shoreline that we showed
2 hundred and fifty. 2 there. It coincides directly with the extent
3 Q. What areas are more than six thousand 3 of the individual ponds there and the widening
4 feet wide? 4 of MRGO. So it must be the 2005 vertical
5 A. Wow. Here comes my -- Mile 31. 5 aerial photograph of this region.
6 Q. And where -- are you looking at a 6 Q. So you weren't involved in selecting
7 particular page in you report to get that 7 the photographs used to make those
8 information? 8 calculations?
9 A. I looked at my cheat sheet. 9 A. No, I was not.
10 (Off the record.) 10 Q. Do you know if they were pre or post
11 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER: 11 Hurricane Katrina?
12 Q. Before we took the break you were 12 A. I seem to remember that it's
13 trying to identify where in your report it 13 post-Katrina, but I'm not absolutely sure.
14 shows the locations of the six thousand foot 14 Q. Uh-huh. And would Hurricane Katrina
15 widening of the channel. Have you found that? 15 have itself caused some of these ponds to
16 A. It's Mile 31. And if you look at 16 expand or the banks of the MRGO to widen even
17 Page 2-13, it shows a false color infrared 17 further?
18 photograph of the region. And if you look at 18 A. Yeah. As we talked about, during
19 Station 1835 you can see the yellow 2005 19 Hurricane Katrina the waves would have been
20 shoreline. It's that location right there that 20 attacking that protection levee, as well as the
21 coincides with that station Mile 31. 21 tide rose, as the storm surge rose, attacking
22 Q. And how do you get six thousand feet? 22 the shoreline. So indeed there would have been
23 Because -- Oh, your figure on the left-hand 23 some erosion to those shorelines. How much I
24 side at Page 2-13, I guess, it is where the 24 don't know.
25 blue lines go off the page that you're? 25 Q. Uh-huh. So if these measurements are

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1 made based on photography taken after Hurricane 1 there, under water/estuarine habitat, habitats
2 Katrina, they may not reflect the exact 2 removed by the original land cut and habitats
3 measurements of the width of the channel 3 covered by the dredge spoil. Those were
4 prior -- immediately prior to Hurricane 4 original ponds and canals and things that we
5 Katrina, is that right? 5 talked about.
6 A. That's right. But they -- you can see 6 Q. Those were original ponds or other
7 from those other sequential photographs that 7 water areas that were in the footprint of the
8 this is a gradual process. The only major 8 originally constructed channel, right? They
9 process that substantially increases the width 9 don't include things that may have been to the
10 of the channel, other than the 22 feet per year 10 east of the channel cut; is that right?
11 that we've already discussed, average, is when 11 A. Right.
12 you erode one of its land bridges. And then 12 Q. So they don't include areas where --
13 you widen it substantially. 13 well, okay. So lost by subsequent channel
14 Q. On Page 2-13, the figure identifies 14 erosion then, where you have water/estuarine
15 one area where the east bank design top of the 15 habitat of 827 acres, what did those 827 acres
16 channel fell within Lake Anathasio? 16 refer to?
17 A. Right. 17 A. These are the areas where the land
18 Q. By that, do you mean that when the 18 bridges were lost and became part of MRGO.
19 channel was initially constructed it cut 19 Q. And did you make an effort to separate
20 through a lake? 20 out the -- okay. So where you're considering
21 A. Yes. 21 lost by erosion, that might include a pond that
22 Q. So that -- that section you have not 22 was to the east of the channel cut but that the
23 included -- or not attributed any widening to 23 marsh eroded and opened into the pond?
24 the MRGO itself, right? 24 MR. DUDENHEFER:
25 A. Correct. 25 Object to form.
Page 183 Page 185
1 Q. But for other areas where the channel 1 A. Right.
2 widens into a pond, do you attribute the 2 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER:
3 increase for the entire measure of the pond to 3 Q. Okay. So you're considering where you
4 be attributed to the MRGO? 4 go to your Figures 2.16, 2.17 and 2.18, it's
5 A. Yes. 5 hard to see some of this because of the numbers
6 Q. Okay. So many of the spikes that are 6 written over the photographs, but you had
7 seen in Figures 2.16, 2.17 and 2.18 may 7 pointed out near Station 1835 --
8 correspond to areas where some of the width is 8 A. On figure --
9 attributed to a pond; is that right? 9 Q. -- on Figure 2.18 where the yellow
10 A. Yes. 10 line extends into a pond that you've measured
11 Q. Okay. 11 to be somewhere as far as six thousand feet --
12 A. But again, I hark back to the point 12 A. Correct.
13 that, yes, it does, it's an immediate widening, 13 Q. -- the area of that pond would be part
14 but it's also an immediate increase in fetch, 14 of what's calculated in Table 2.1 as 827 acres
15 and there's a tremendous positive feedback 15 of water/estuarine habitat lost to subsequent
16 there when that land bridge is moved and waves 16 erosion?
17 are substantially increased in size because of 17 A. Correct.
18 the greater fetch, and that has a much greater 18 Q. And how is it that a water habitat is
19 ability to erode both sides of the channel. 19 lost to erosion? Doesn't it stay a water
20 Q. You haven't done, or have you done 20 habitat after the erosion?
21 any -- sorry. I think you said you have not 21 A. It remains water, but it's not the
22 done any measurement of the acreage that's 22 same habitat. That when it's fully enclosed it
23 attributed to preexisting ponds versus only the 23 then has greater circulation with the saltwater
24 bank of the channel expanding? Is that right? 24 that's moving up and down and experiences
25 A. If you look at Table 2.1, it has 25 greater tides. It's whole physical condition

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1 changes. 1 understand. So you don't know exactly how
2 Q. Okay. 2 these numbers are calculated in Table 2.1, is
3 A. You get the invasion of different 3 that right?
4 species in there, you just kind of open things 4 A. Well, I do. I do. The thing I can't
5 up into a different sort of setting, physical 5 reconcile right now is why one is from '65 to
6 and biological, ecological setting. 6 2001 and the other one is 2005. But I think
7 Q. So where you have a total land and 7 I've explained the rest of these numbers.
8 water lost by subsequent channel erosion 1965 8 Q. Well, if the loss by subsequent
9 to 2001 of 5628, that is what you attribute to 9 erosion is based on aerial photography, I'm
10 be erosion over the entire length of the 10 tying to understand how it was you calculated
11 channel? Is that right? 11 the habitat types from the aerial photography.
12 A. Correct. And the majority of that is 12 A. The habitat types -- the habitat maps
13 land, is not the opening of these ponds, as you 13 were derived from three sources. We've talked
14 can see. 14 about those. The land water came from Dale
15 Q. Okay. But some of it would include 15 Britsch and Dunbar. The types of salt marsh
16 erosion into ponds that were preexisting? 16 came from Chabreck. And then the trees and
17 A. Yeah. About one fifth. 17 swamp came from the USGS quad sheets. And
18 Q. One fifth? How do you get one fifth? 18 that's the material we used to produce those
19 A. Well, the total land area is 4800, and 19 three maps, the 1950s, the 1960s, and the
20 the area of estuarine habitat that is lost due 20 2000s. And it was from those maps that we were
21 to erosion and other processes is 827. 21 able to derive what sort of habitat -- the
22 Q. I see. Okay. And you have in Table 22 encroachment of MRGO into those surrounding
23 2.1 loss by subsequent channel erosion 1965 to 23 region as it widened, what sort of habitats
24 2001, and then below that you have total loss 24 were lost.
25 of habitats due to MRGO channel since creation 25 Q. But did you -- is there some place
Page 187 Page 189
1 to 2005. Why does one of those categories end 1 where you superimposed the outline of the
2 with 2001 and the other with 2005? 2 channel that you have reflected as the 2005
3 A. Well, one is based on the habitat 3 shoreline in Figures 2.15, 16 and 17 and 18 --
4 maps, and I think one is based on the aerial 4 have you superimposed that 2005 shoreline on
5 photographs. And so our -- our habitat map we 5 top of the habitat maps somewhere?
6 have for different time periods, pre-MRGO, 6 A. Those are not visually displayed in
7 following MRGO, and then for the 2000 period. 7 our report.
8 And that's the habitat map. And the loss by 8 Q. Well, do you know if you did that sort
9 subsequent channel erosion may be based on 9 of overlay in order to calculate the habitats
10 vertical aerial photographs, I'm not totally 10 lost to subsequent general erosion reflected in
11 sure about that. 11 Table 2.1?
12 Q. Okay. So you don't know other than 12 A. Yes. That would have been a GIS
13 what we discussed about how -- well, then, do 13 exercise. We would have overlaid, exactly what
14 you know how the fresh marsh, brackish marsh, 14 you said, the footprint of MRGO on top of those
15 salt marsh, swamp, trees and other land were 15 maps and seen what sort of environments and
16 calculated for the loss by subsequent channel 16 determined the areas of those polygons and come
17 erosion? 17 up with these estimates.
18 A. From the maps. From our habitat maps. 18 Q. Well, the habitat maps, you have one
19 Looking to see what environment -- and as we've 19 for the 1950s, one for the 1960s, and one for
20 already seen, most of that on the eastern side 20 2000s.
21 is the brackish marsh. 21 A. Right.
22 Q. Uh-huh. 22 Q. How would you have determined which
23 A. And then as we get further to the 23 habitat map to use in order to calculate the
24 south it's all salt marsh. 24 habitats impacted by erosion since it spans a
25 Q. But you -- I'm just trying to 25 period of time that covers multiple habitat

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1 maps? 1 widening.
2 A. Well, as you can see, in many 2 We did discuss the change in
3 instances it's the same habitat, it hasn't 3 environment due to the saline intrusion. You
4 changed between 1960s and the 2000s. It's 4 can see -- for example, between Figures 4.3 and
5 still brackish marsh. It's still salt marsh in 5 4.4, you can see back in the sixties the area
6 many of those areas. 6 along the east side of MRGO extending into Lake
7 Q. Well, if I look at Figure 4 .3 versus 7 Borne was largely, back in the sixties, a
8 4.4, does it not appear that some -- you have 8 brackish water environment. And then because
9 different habitats reflected in those two maps? 9 of the conduit that was created by MRGO where
10 A. Yes. We do. We absolutely do. 10 we had saline waters easily coming up with the
11 Q. So do you know how you chose which 11 tides from Breton Sound, you can see what that
12 habitat to use when you were talking about 12 area was changed into a saltwater environment.
13 which ones are impacted by erosion? 13 It was changed into a salt marsh.
14 A. I don't know that detail. 14 Now, what I want to draw your
15 Q. Okay. 15 attention to is look at Proctor Point. Proctor
16 A. To me, what's most important is the 16 Point -- and look at the area that, the left
17 amount after land that was lost during the 17 cheek area there of Lake Borne. That whole
18 widening process, because the ensuing impacts 18 area there remains as a brackish water
19 of MRGO and the subsequent erosion caused by 19 environment, indicating that it was not being
20 the widening of the channel due to wave action 20 affected by saline intrusion coming in from
21 and other processes was largely independent of 21 Lake Borne. Rather, there's the correlation
22 the habitat type, whether it was a pure salt 22 there I think you can easily make that it was
23 marsh or whether it was a brackish marsh. 23 rather the water coming in from MRGO that was
24 Q. Uh-huh. 24 making that -- changing that marsh from a
25 A. The impact was not so much whether it 25 brackish water marsh to a salt marsh.
Page 191 Page 193
1 was a brackish marsh or a salt marsh, it was 1 Q. Have you evaluated the changes in
2 that the area was becoming much wider. 2 habitats in wetland environments prior to this
3 Q. Do you think that Andrew Milanes may 3 litigation?
4 know the answer to that question about how 4 A. The change?
5 these numbers were derived in Table 2.1 for the 5 Q. Sorry, the causes of change of habitat
6 habitats lost to subsequent channel erosion? 6 types.
7 A. Yes, I'm sure he does. I'm sure he's 7 A. I've looked at the causes of changes
8 dying to tell you. 8 in wetlands. The changes in habitats, that
9 MR. STEVENS: 9 change from the saline marsh to a brackish
10 You're welcome to ask him if you 10 marsh on that sort of detailed scale I have not
11 like. He's sitting right here. 11 done before.
12 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER: 12 Q. Okay. So do you have an opinion on
13 Q. Right now it's the deposition of 13 why in Figure 4.2 for the 1950s the Proctor
14 Dr. FitzGerald, so we will allow him to answer 14 Point area is reflecting salt marsh?
15 the questions to the best of his ability. 15 A. Between 1950 and 1960, you can see
16 So Mr. Milanes did those questions and 16 that much of -- it wasn't just Proctor Point
17 you -- did you ask him about his methodology? 17 that changed from a salt marsh to a freshwater
18 Sorry, he did those calculations -- 18 marsh, but you can see the land bridge area.
19 A. Yes, he did. 19 Q. Uh-huh.
20 Q. -- in Table 2.1. And did you question 20 A. That also changed. And I have not
21 him about his methodology? 21 looked at those in detail, but I have discussed
22 A. I questioned not so much his 22 among our team members that perhaps during this
23 methodology. We talked about the widening of 23 period of time there was more freshwater,
24 the channel and the effect of that. And we 24 perhaps there was greater precipitation that
25 talked about the processes that caused the 25 occurred during that period of time and there

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1 was more freshwater being conveyed through the 1 distributaries. You can see the extent of the
2 Rigolets, the area to the north, and right 2 Chandeleur Islands. So many of the features
3 where E is is Chef Menteur, another conduit 3 are there, are present. Their configuration,
4 from which freshwater can be derived from Lake 4 their extent, their geometries are certainly
5 Pontchartrain into Lake Borne. 5 different, and certainly are not
6 Q. You mean the E in the category of East 6 cartographically correct.
7 Orleans land bridge? 7 Q. Do you have an opinion on whether
8 A. Yes. Exactly. What's where Chef 8 Figure 1.3 and 1.4 are cartographically
9 Menteur is. So again, we've not looked at this 9 correct? Or accurate versus inaccurate?
10 in detail, we haven't looked at precipitation 10 MR. DUDENHEFER:
11 records, but that would be one way to explain 11 Object to form.
12 the freshening of the Lake Borgne area during 12 A. Figures 1.3?
13 that particular time. 13 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER:
14 Q. Were you asked to evaluate the causes 14 Q. Well, I can rephrase the question. We
15 of those changes as part of your expert report? 15 just discussed Figure 1.1 and Figure 1.2
16 A. No. 16 identified the maps as not being
17 Q. So you were only asked to -- 17 cartographically inaccurate.
18 A. No, that was the domain of Day and 18 A. Right.
19 Shaffer. 19 Q. Figure 1.3 and 1.4 do not include that
20 Q. So you are -- the statement you just 20 designation.
21 made about the possibility of rainfall are 21 A. 1 point -- yes, I have an opinion. I
22 circulations, largely? 22 don't think 1.3 is cartographically correct,
23 A. They are speculation. Right. 23 either.
24 Q. Can you tell me who selected the maps 24 Q. Okay.
25 that are shown on Pages 1-3 to 1-6 for 25 A. I mean, as I said before, it contains
Page 195 Page 197
1 inclusion in this report, 1-3, 1- 1 many of the features, probably all the meander
2 A. Figures 1-1, 1-2, 1-3? Yes, I can 2 bends that you see there are the same meander
3 tell you. 3 bends, but the geometry, their widths and so
4 Q. Okay. Who chose to put those in this 4 on, aren't necessarily correct.
5 reported? 5 Q. Okay. And is that also your opinion
6 A. Shea Penland. 6 about Figure 1.4?
7 Q. And do you know why? 7 A. No. That's a U.S. Coastal Geodetic
8 A. He loved maps. He loved maps, he had 8 Survey map. That is a fairly accurate
9 them all over his house, he had them all over 9 document.
10 his office. I have some of his maps today. He 10 Q. Okay.
11 loved maps, he loved demonstrating the 11 A. The amount of error associated with
12 robustness of the marsh system once upon a 12 that I'm not equipped to say. But people will
13 time. Um -- but he loved maps. There's the 13 use U.S. Coastal Geodetic maps as the basis of
14 pure and simple of it. 14 their analysis, oftentimes as the beginning
15 Q. So the first two identify that they're 15 accurate map that they will rely on.
16 cartographically inaccurate. Given that, what 16 Q. Okay. Figure 1.4 identifies the map
17 is it that we can glean from their inclusion 17 as being from 1854. Is that a different map
18 here? 18 than what's shown in Appendix C on Page C1? I
19 A. Many of the same elements that we see 19 guess it must be. C1 identifies 1890s?
20 today are depicted in this map. I mean, we 20 A. I got to get there first. Excuse me.
21 just talked about two passageways of water to 21 Q. Okay.
22 get from Lake Pontchartrain into Lake Borne. 22 A. C1?
23 You can see the Rigolets, and you can see the 23 Q. Yes.
24 Chef Menteur. You can see that the mouth of 24 MR. STEVENS:
25 the Mississippi consists of a series of 25 What's the question? Is that the

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1 same map? 1 Q. Okay. Is that also true for Appendix
2 MS. MILLER: 2 D; did they put those together?
3 Well, I think I may have answered 3 A. Yes.
4 my own question, but -- 4 Q. And have you reviewed these
5 A. Well, don't let me interrupt you. 5 photographs in Appendix D?
6 MR. STEVENS: 6 A. Yes. Primarily the enlargements of
7 Yes. Don't let us get in your 7 the channels as we've discussed.
8 way. 8 Q. If you'll turn to Section 2 of your
9 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER: 9 report, we've been discussing obviously Table
10 Q. If you'll look at Figure 1.4 and 10 2.1 a fair amount.
11 compare it to Page C1 -- 11 A. Let me just have a moment here to put
12 A. There are some differences between 12 this back. What section?
13 those two. 13 Q. Well, Section 2, and I was looking
14 Q. What do you see? 14 again at Figure 2.3 which is on Page 2-2. Do
15 A. Well, look at the extent of New 15 you know the date of the map in this figure?
16 Orleans. 16 A. I might need a magnifying glass to
17 Q. So C1 shows that there had been 17 find some writing here, but off the top of my
18 increased development in the 1890s, as compared 18 head I don't know the date this is.
19 with 1854? Is what that what you're seeing? 19 Q. On the previous page, the second
20 A. There appears to be. Either that or 20 paragraph says Figure 2.3 next page shows the
21 -- I don't know. I'm glancing at this really 21 as-built U.S. Army Corps of Engineers
22 for the first time. So for me to give you an 22 implemented design for the MRGO channel cut and
23 accurate evaluation there, it's totally off the 23 spoil depositional areas.
24 cuff and I don't even know. They're similar 24 Do you know where that -- do you know
25 vintage. I can see that there are differences, 25 what the as-built is?
Page 199 Page 201
1 certainly, between the two. 1 A. The as-built is after it's
2 This is supposedly an older document. 2 constructed, the footprint that was -- that was
3 This one here in 1854 doesn't contain 3 produced with the cutting of the channel.
4 the extensive areas that we can see in this 4 Q. Is the underlying map in Figure 2.3
5 document. This appears to be a later, more 5 part of a Corps of Engineers report of some
6 accurate document of the 1890s 15-minute 6 sort? Or do you not know that?
7 topographic map mosaic. 7 A. It's a custom geodetic survey chart.
8 Q. So when you say you're looking at 8 It's a coastal chart.
9 these for the first time -- 9 Q. So where Page 2-1 refers to the
10 A. In detail. 10 as-built, that just means that what's shown in
11 Q. -- in detail, do you mean that both 11 the green and the blue is added to this coast
12 Figure 1.4 and Page C1? 12 and geodetic survey chart and reflects the
13 A. Well, the, um -- Shea Penland had 13 channel as it was built?
14 included many of those early photographs in the 14 A. Right.
15 preface of our -- in the document that I saw. 15 Q. Are you familiar with a specific type
16 So I'm used to seeing these in some detail. 16 of document from the Corps of Engineers called
17 These are in the, um -- 17 an as-built?
18 Q. So Appendix C is what you mean by the 18 A. Yeah. Oftentimes there's a survey
19 ones you have not looked at in detail before? 19 following the actual event that documents
20 A. Not as much detail. I've certainly 20 exactly what they've done.
21 paged through this document lots. But I 21 Q. So that's not -- Figure 2.3 is not one
22 haven't doted on this. 22 of those documents from the Corps of Engineers?
23 Q. Do you know who put together the 23 A. Well, it's certainly not a bathymetric
24 compilations included in Appendix C? 24 survey.
25 A. Andrew and Karen. 25 Q. But do you know whether it was based

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1 on some bathymetric survey done by the Corps of 1 some have been logged. But behind that, can
2 Engineers? 2 you tell whether those trees are alive?
3 A. No, it wasn't based on a bathymetric 3 A. Um -- they appear to be alive. But
4 survey. It shows the channel, and it shows the 4 I'm not a cypress tree expert. I think we'd
5 spoil banks and those sorts of things. But I 5 have to know the month of the year and -- I
6 think with they meant here is the planned, 6 guess we do know that; February. So maybe the
7 um -- rather than the as-built. 7 levees -- I think they are -- I'm not a cypress
8 Q. So that may be a typo or an error of 8 tree expert. I don't want to attempt to --
9 some sort on Page 2-1; is that what -- 9 Q. Okay.
10 A. It could be. 10 A. -- be one.
11 Q. Did someone else besides yourself 11 Q. So, um -- actually, before we get to
12 write this section? 12 some of those other photographs I just wanted
13 A. Yes. This is, um -- this section 13 to clear up one thing. Section 2.1, on Page
14 right here was written, um -- I believe by Shea 14 2-4, you list total acreage numbers that I
15 Penland. Or it could have been Karen. 15 believe are drawn from Table 2.1. Is that a
16 Q. So you don't necessarily know exactly 16 correct understanding of where those numbers
17 what documents were used to write Section 2, is 17 came from?
18 that right? 18 A. I'm not sure I know what you're --
19 A. No, most of Section 2 is the 19 Q. This first paragraph under land-cut
20 historical information that Karen gathered and 20 wetlands on Page 2-4 --
21 the historical information that Shea gathered, 21 A. Right.
22 and in illustrating the sorts of before and 22 Q. -- do the numbers reflected in those
23 after pictures that we discussed earlier, so it 23 paragraphs -- are they simply an articulation
24 was a physical description -- a pictorial 24 of what's shown in Table 2.1?
25 description of the before and after of MRGO. 25 A. Yes.
Page 203 Page 205
1 Q. Okay. 1 Q. On your pie charts at the top of
2 A. And the most important aspect of this, 2 Page 2-4, total loss of habitats due to MRGO
3 of the photographs that were taken by Karen to 3 channel, the farthest one on the right-hand
4 show these historical documentation of either 4 side, it may just be the printing of my copy
5 MRGO being built or before MRGO or just after 5 but I don't know if there are two numbers over
6 it was built and today's setting. 6 the top of each other on the bottom.
7 Q. Okay. I'd like to go through some of 7 A. Yeah, there are.
8 those photos, but first -- well I guess the 8 Q. Do you know what those numbers are?
9 first one in the section appears on Page 2-4. 9 A. Not off the top of my head, no.
10 Do you know the location of -- what 10 Q. Okay. But that pie chart includes
11 part of the channel that photograph, if any 11 erosion subsequent to the initial construction
12 part of the channel, it represents? 12 of the channel, is that right?
13 A. Yeah. Mike Miner said that he had 13 A. Yeah. Total loss of the habitats due
14 seen a similar sort of setting in which there 14 o MRGO channel.
15 was a larger scene, and he says it was up near 15 Q. So that's reflected in the bottom
16 the Intracoastal waterway. 16 column -- I mean bottom row of Table 2.1?
17 Q. Okay. 17 A. Yeah. The total loss of habitats,
18 A. Now, that's what he's told me. I have 18 right.
19 not learned that by myself. 19 Q. The total figure that you come up with
20 Q. And do you know enough about trees to 20 for the loss of habitat due to the MRGO channel
21 know what kind of trees are shown in this 21 is 35,634 acres, is that right?
22 photograph? 22 A. Yes.
23 A. This is cypress trees. 23 Q. So then going on to the photographs on
24 Q. And can you -- obviously, in the -- 24 Page 2-5, so the photographs that are labeled
25 immediately behind the people it appears that 25 May 19th, 2008, those are the ones you

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1 described that were taken by Karen Westphal, is 1 impoundments within the central wetlands unit.
2 that right? 2 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER:
3 A. Correct. 3 Q. Okay. And I think you've noted at
4 Q. And on the right-hand side, there 4 some spot in your report that impounded areas
5 is -- in your caption you note a loss of 5 or failed drainage projects are possible -- can
6 cypress swamp and marsh, on right-hand side of 6 result in water -- the loss of land to open
7 the photograph? 7 water, is that right?
8 A. Which one are you -- 8 A. Impoundments can change habitats, yes.
9 Q. Page 2-5. 9 Q. Okay. If you can turn to Page 2-6,
10 A. I'm there. 10 the photograph on the right-hand side which is
11 Q. The right-hand side photographs in 11 Figure 2.8, at the top, the caption identifies
12 your caption for Figure 2.6 you note that trees 12 the top photograph as being dated 1960?
13 have colonized the disposal area on the left 13 A. 1960?
14 and you note a loss of cypress swamp and marsh 14 Q. Uh-huh.
15 to the right. 15 A. Uh-huh.
16 A. Correct. 16 Q. And do you know whether the top
17 Q. Have you done any evaluation as to the 17 photograph then reflects the completed channel
18 cause of the loss of the swamp and marsh on the 18 as opposed to the interim channel that was
19 right-hand side of the photograph? 19 constructed first?
20 A. No, I am sure Day and Shaffer have. 20 A. This is -- the bottom photograph is
21 Q. So you don't know -- you aren't 21 2008. Are you asking whether that top
22 necessarily attributing that loss to the MRGO 22 photograph, that 1960, is the completed?
23 is that right? 23 Q. Right.
24 A. And I'm not -- and I'm not dismissing 24 A. I believe it is the completed, but I'm
25 MRGO either. 25 not entirely certain. Certainly the Paris Road
Page 207 Page 209
1 Q. Uh-huh. 1 bridge wasn't built at that time, so there are
2 A. So what I'm saying is that the 2 changes in that particular area.
3 individuals who are charged with that under our 3 Q. Uh-huh. This photograph captured in
4 expert team are Day and Shaffer, and I don't 4 Figure 2.8 also identifies the growth of trees
5 want to usurp their, um -- I don't want to 5 on the disposal area, right?
6 usurp their expertise in this environment. 6 A. Correct.
7 Q. All right. Do you have any knowledge 7 Q. And are you aware of whether trees
8 of whether there were impoundments in this area 8 also grew on the remainder of the spoil bank
9 at any time? 9 after construction?
10 A. Which area are you speaking? 10 A. I'm not exactly sure what you're
11 Q. The area reflected in these 11 asking me. I can see that in the comparison of
12 photographs on Figure 2.6. 12 figures, the top figure and the bottom figure,
13 MR. DUDENHEFER: 13 that there's been a tremendous growth in trees
14 Excuse me, if there were any? 14 because of the amount of material that was
15 MS. MILLER: 15 pumped into that site providing a habitat in
16 Impoundments. 16 which trees could ultimately grow.
17 MR. DUDENHEFER: 17 Q. I guess my question was whether you
18 Okay. Impoundments. I'm sorry. 18 are aware of, other than the area depicted in
19 I couldn't hear. 19 this photograph and the one on the previous
20 A. There are impoundments within the 20 page, if there were also other areas where
21 central wetlands unit. If that's what you're 21 trees grew on the MRGO spoil bank.
22 asking, yes. The exact locations of these 22 A. Yeah. Trees definitely grew on the
23 photographs, they're not very large, and I 23 spoil bank.
24 don't know whether that are impoundments right 24 Q. Figure 2.10 on Page 2-7 -- well, I
25 here or not. But there certainly are 25 guess in Figure 2.9, the top photograph on the

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1 left-hand side is from 1959 and identifies that 1 the top photograph also is from 1959, um -- so
2 only the access channel had been constructed at 2 presumably that also does not show the
3 that time? 3 completed channel?
4 A. Right. And then that bottom 4 A. Right. What it shows is that whole
5 photograph shows the construction of MRGO, the 5 area there has been filled in with dredge
6 amount of material that was pumped into the 6 spoil, and you can see that Bayou Mercier is
7 spoil area, and some -- you know, and the 7 gone, as such.
8 change in habitat there. 8 Q. What makes you say it's gone?
9 Q. You mean the middle photograph on 9 A. I can't see it. I mean --
10 Figure 2.9, on the left-hand side? 10 Q. Which photo are you talking about that
11 A. I mean -- well, there's a 1959 and 11 you can't see it?
12 then there's a 2008. Are we looking at the 12 A. Where it says Bayou Mercier in 2008.
13 right -- 2.7? 13 Q. Okay. 2008. Okay.
14 Q. I'm sorry? 14 A. When you compare that to 1959, one was
15 A. I thought you said 2.7. I'm sorry. 15 a wide meandering tidal break.
16 Q. Yeah. I was looking at Page 2-7 but 16 Q. Do you know whether -- that could just
17 Figure 2.9. 17 be from the --
18 A. Oh, okay. 18 A. I've flown over it. I've thrown over
19 Q. And the top photograph on the 19 that area. It's hard to see Bayou Mercier.
20 left-hand side shows only the access canal 20 It's been largely filled.
21 having been constructed, right? 21 Q. Okay. But the Figure 2.10 is not
22 A. Right. 22 necessarily a good representation of the
23 Q. So the late sixties photograph in the 23 widening of the channel since the top
24 middle shows the completed channel as far as 24 photograph is not a photograph of the completed
25 you know, is that right? 25 channel, is that correct?
Page 211 Page 213
1 MR. DUDENHEFER: 1 MR. DUDENHEFER:
2 Object to form. 2 Object to form.
3 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER: 3 A. Well, you can say that it is an
4 Q. Or do you know whether the photograph 4 indication of the channel because when you look
5 labeled late sixties shows the completed 5 at that marsh, the robustness of the marsh in
6 channel? 6 1959, if you cut a channel through that you
7 A. I assume if it's late sixties it would 7 would have some channels intersecting that, but
8 have to be. 8 it would still be largely marsh. When you look
9 Q. Uh-huh. But do you know the exact 9 at the 2008, I mean, it's real scattered. Look
10 date of this photograph? 10 at that eastern boundary. I mean, it's -- it's
11 A. Well, I can see that they're building 11 very indistinct. The marshes are not
12 the, um -- protection levees, so it must be 12 continuous there, it's very scattered, mostly
13 late sixties. 13 water. I think you can say that that's the
14 Q. How can you tell that they're building 14 result of widening.
15 the protection levees? 15 Q. Do you know whether Hurricane Katrina
16 A. I see a piece of equipment there. And 16 had any impact on the marsh in the area shown
17 it doesn't have its height. And the gates 17 for the 2008 photograph in Figure 2.10?
18 haven't been put in there yet. 18 A. I've seen the effects of Hurricane
19 Q. Uh-huh. Okay. But the change from 19 Katrina on marshes, and in the Caernarvon area
20 1959 to the 1960s photograph on the left-hand 20 where we flew that, yes. And I was down on the
21 side was largely due to the fact that the top 21 ground in the Caernarvon area after Hurricane
22 photograph does not show the completed channel, 22 Katrina, next to open water areas, and there
23 is that right? 23 was some scouring in some area, but by and
24 A. Correct. Absolutely. Yes. 24 large it was still a fairly robust shoreline.
25 Q. So the right-hand side Figure 2.10, 25 What I'm getting at here is Hurricane Katrina

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1 would not have dissected this marsh to that 1 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER:
2 extent, that this was a long-term process of 2 Q. Is that what you used to come up with
3 erosion and not a product of Hurricane Katrina. 3 the figure on Page 3-4, Figure 3.2?
4 Certainly Hurricane Katrina impacted this area, 4 A. Yeah. Those areas in yellow, in the
5 probably caused quite a bit of erosion, 5 table on Page 3-3.
6 particularly along the eastern side where 6 Q. Uh-huh. Okay. So 3-3, that table,
7 there's more of a continuous area there. But 7 and 3-4?
8 on the -- what did I say, the eastern side? I 8 A. Yes. This was a project, the
9 meant the western side. But the eastern side, 9 beneficial use of dredge spoil. Instead of
10 I think that's a product of long-term channel 10 just dumping in the deep water, they decided to
11 widening and erosion. 11 use it beneficially, in this case place it
12 Q. Have you done any evaluation of the 12 either on Breton Island to fill breaches, as it
13 impacts of Hurricane Katrina in this particular 13 says here in the table, or to place it near
14 area reflected in Figure 2.10? 14 near breaches, near these feeder berms as
15 A. No, I have not. 15 they're talked about.
16 Q. So -- okay. 16 Q. And the feeder berm is shown in Figure
17 A. I'm simply comparing an area that's 17 3.2, right?
18 ten miles away. 18 A. Yeah. And as we've also discussed,
19 Q. And are you familiar with -- well, 19 the feeder berm coincides with the channel.
20 okay. I guess if you'll turn the page to 20 Q. And Figure 3.2, did that come from
21 2-8 -- 21 Exhibit 8?
22 A. 2-8, yep. 22 A. Excuse me?
23 Q. -- the top photos are both stated as 23 Q. In Exhibit 8, the last page seems to
24 being from the 1960s. Do you have any idea of 24 have the same figure that you have shown on
25 a more specific date for those photographs? 25 Page 3-4.
Page 215 Page 217
1 A. No, these are photographs that Karen 1 A. Yes.
2 came up with. And as she put down 1960s, then 2 Q. Is that where you obtained this Figure
3 I take her word that it was 1960s. 3 3.2?
4 Q. But you don't know whether it might be 4 A. Yes, that and we colored it.
5 1961 or 1969? 5 Q. And Figure 3.2 cites U.S. Corps of
6 A. Well, I think if it was 1969 we'd see 6 Engineers report, 2002. Is the Exhibit 8 only
7 more of the, um -- protection levee. Um -- 7 a portion of that report?
8 so -- 8 A. It's the only, um -- it's the only
9 Q. Do you know when -- 9 materials I received. I asked the people at
10 A. Probably a little earlier. I'm not 10 PIES, have they -- I know that Karen Westphal
11 sure when these were taken. 11 had done some work for the Corps in beneficial
12 Q. Do you know, there are some linear 12 use, and so I asked her whether she had
13 canals shown in the top photographs, also in 13 anything on Breton Island, and this is what I
14 the bottom photographs, but on Page 2-8. Are 14 was given.
15 you familiar with what those are? 15 Q. And you cited another document dated
16 A. Those are pipe canals, yeah. 16 2001 in your references on Page 8-2. Is that
17 Q. The same thing for Page 2-9, do you 17 another thing that you looked at? Regarding
18 know the date of the top photographs? 18 beneficial use of dredge material? It's
19 A. Um -- no. 19 Page 8-2.
20 Q. One of the documents you brought after 20 That's your appendix. It's just after
21 I think the lunch break is this one that I've 21 that.
22 marked as Exhibit 8. (Tendering.) 22 Is the document cited there at the end
23 (Exhibit 8 was marked for 23 another thing you reviewed in preparing the
24 identification and is attached hereto.) 24 report and the information on beneficial use of
25 A. Yeah. Yes. 25 dredge material?

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1 A. This was a document that, um -- that 1 report?
2 maybe Karen used to produce this document. 2 A. I think we meant that the MRGO was
3 (Indicating.) I'm not entirely sure about the 3 using the same 2050 mapping units that we used
4 chain of -- 4 here.
5 Q. Where exactly Exhibit 8 came from? 5 Q. Do you know when the Coast 2050
6 A. Where exactly this came from, right. 6 mapping units were developed?
7 Q. Are you familiar with other beneficial 7 A. That was during the late 1990s.
8 uses of dredge material besides that related to 8 Q. Have you yourself been involved in the
9 Breton Island? 9 Coast 2050 effort?
10 A. In the United States? 10 A. I've been involved as a scientist
11 Q. In the general vicinity of the MRGO? 11 helping out LCA.
12 A. Well, there are projects that exist 12 Q. Uh-huh.
13 today in which they've built new marsh. I've 13 A. I was one of the team of scientists
14 flown over those and seen some of those areas 14 that was part of an expert panel that looked at
15 in which they're constructing new marsh. 15 some of the projects of CWPPRA and some of the
16 Q. And do you know the locations of those 16 future projects to help restore the barrier
17 areas? 17 island shorelines in particular. That's what
18 A. I've just seen them from the air. I 18 we centered our attention on.
19 couldn't tell you. But it's along -- it's 19 Q. I may just be missing it, but I'm not
20 between MRGO, for example, and Lake Borne. 20 sure I see the LCA -- any reports pursuant to
21 Q. Uh-huh. And did you make any effort 21 the LCA project or the Coast 2050 report in
22 for this report to quantify the acres of land 22 your bibliography. Were those documents that
23 created through the beneficial use of dredge 23 you relied on in creating your expert report?
24 material program? 24 A. Well, it's mostly the mapping units,
25 A. No. 25 the central wetlands, you know -- the ones that
Page 219 Page 221
1 Q. All right. 1 are listed here, the 1 through 12.
2 (Brief recess.) 2 Q. Okay. And those came from the Coast
3 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER: 3 2050 report?
4 Q. On Page 3-12 of your report you show 4 A. Correct.
5 pictures of brown pelicans nesting on Breton 5 Q. So what you meant by being consistent
6 Island. What was the reason for including that 6 with previous analyses of habitat impact of
7 in your report? 7 MRGO, the methodology of the MRGO Environmental
8 A. Because they're an endangered species, 8 Subcommittee Report EPA 1999 was adopted. And
9 even though it looks like a bunch of them right 9 what you say you meant by that was simply that
10 there, they don't have that many nesting 10 you used the same Coast 2050 mapping units?
11 grounds and one of their important nesting 11 A. Correct.
12 grounds is Breton Island. So it was just a 12 Q. Okay. Do you know the methodology by
13 little ecological significant picture to show 13 which the 1999 environmental subcommittee
14 the importance of Breton Island and its 14 report came to its calculations of habitat
15 shrinking size. 15 impacts?
16 Q. Uh-huh. But pelicans of course do not 16 A. Can you repeat that one more time,
17 have a relationship to the MRGO and storm 17 please?
18 surge, is that correct? 18 Q. Do you know the methodology used to
19 A. Only in that their habitat has been 19 reach the calculations of habitat impacts
20 destroyed. 20 reflected in the MRGO environmental
21 Q. On Page 4-1, you get into your section 21 subcommittee report cited on Page 4-1?
22 on habitat change and the habitat maps that 22 A. Yeah. They looked at -- they used
23 were created. And you say that the methodology 23 Chabreck, they used the USGS. The same sorts
24 of the MRGO environmental subcommittee report 24 of information that we used and reported in our
25 was adopted. What was the methodology of that 25 maps, they used. And they used the same

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1 mapping units that we used, the -- as we depict 1 a half thousand acres, we have a difference of
2 here in 4.1. And they came out with very 2 43 acres.
3 similar values as we did. And when you look at 3 If we look at swamps, which is the
4 the amount of acreage of habitat change, we 4 cypress forest, the cypress forest in theirs is
5 came up with very similar numbers? I can give 5 10,200. In ours it's 9,629. So there's a
6 you an example of that -- 6 difference of about 560 or 70 acres. A little
7 Q. Okay. 7 bit more.
8 A. -- if I can find it. If you'd look 8 If we look at the total water, for
9 at -- do you have this publication? This is 9 example, their water is 4020 acres. Our
10 the EPA 's report, this 1999 -- 10 calculations have it at 4004 acres. We're off
11 Q. I think I might have a copy of that, 11 by 16, the difference between the two.
12 I'm not sure. I don't. I don't think I 12 So yes, we used the same mapping
13 brought that. 13 units, we used the same -- by and large the
14 A. Did you make a copy? It's one of the 14 same sort of environment and we came up with
15 things that I -- 15 the same values. Very similar values.
16 Q. I didn't make a copy of that one, but 16 Q. Okay. And you were reading from your
17 can I take a look at that for a second? 17 Table 4.1 on Page 4-11, and also from what page
18 A. Sure. (Tendering.) I can show you. 18 of the 1999 document?
19 If you look at that, I can read off values 19 A. It was Table 2. Table 2, um -- and I
20 here. 20 don't have a page number. But it's Table 2.
21 Q. Well, I think -- I was just comparing 21 Q. Okay. And in Table 2 of the 1999
22 it with what was included in the Day and 22 report, the dates that are evaluated there are
23 Shaffer report dated July 11, 2008, and it 23 1956, 1978 and 1990. Do you know what those
24 looks like they have just reproduced the page 24 dates are -- why they're using those dates?
25 you are looking at in their report. So I can 25 A. Yeah. The 19 -- yeah. Those are --
Page 223 Page 225
1 probably follow along. 1 well, these are the habitat types. And so the
2 A. Okay. If you look at the 1950s 2 habitat types would -- are O'Neill's map which
3 habitat inventory, for example, as I said, they 3 dates back to 1949, Chabreck '68, and Chabreck
4 used the same -- these used the same mapping 4 1997. Now, and then the land water maps during
5 units as we did for the central wetlands, the 5 these same three periods are Britsch and Delft
6 south Lake Borgne and so on. 6 and Dunbar 's maps which are 1956, '58, 1974
7 Q. Sorry. What page of your report are 7 and 2001. And then the U.S. quad sheets are
8 you referencing? 8 1948 to 1957, 1962 to 1969, 1994 to 2002. So
9 A. 4-11. 9 the one that we tried to map, to match up most
10 Q. Okay. 10 closely so we could show the correspondence
11 A. So they used the same mapping units, 11 between our methodologies and so on was the
12 and they also used the same habitats. They 12 1955 because it matched our 1950s most closely.
13 used the fresh, the brackish, the saline, the 13 Now, the 1955 was a Britsch and Dunbar map of
14 cypress forest, the forest, the spoil bank, so 14 1956.
15 on. And if you look at -- in the ones -- they 15 Q. I'm sorry. On the Table 2 that you're
16 used some different ones, as well, but if you 16 reading from, does it say 1955 or 1956?
17 look at the fresh intermediate, for example, we 17 A. (Tendering.) You tell me.
18 come up with a total of 11,120 acres, and in 18 Q. It is hard to say.
19 the EPA report they come up with 11,620 acres. 19 A. I don't know whether it makes a great
20 So there's a difference of 40 acres in more 20 deal of difference.
21 than eleven thousand acres. 21 (Off the record.)
22 Q. Okay. 22 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER:
23 A. If you look at their brackish marsh, 23 Q. Well, my question is that in your
24 they come up with a value of 13,490, and we 24 report, Dr. FitzGerald, you have said that
25 come up with a value of 13,453, some of 13 and 25 there were only certain sources of habitat

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1 information available, and it seems that this 1 Q. I think the one that you brought is
2 1999 report found sources of habitat 2 that one there.
3 information dated 1956, 1978 and 1990. And 3 MR. STEVENS:
4 those dates are different from what you used to 4 We'll make you a copy of the
5 create your maps, and so I'm trying to 5 complete document.
6 determine -- 6 A. It was here yesterday. It's gone now.
7 A. Okay. 7 MS. MILLER:
8 Q. -- why those are different. 8 I am familiar with the complete
9 A. Well, the maps consist of three 9 document. My question was whether
10 different sources of information. One is just 10 Dr. FitzGerald is familiar with it.
11 the land water boundary. And that's Dale 11 MR. STEVENS:
12 Britsch Dunbar. And the only times that they 12 Okay. Fine.
13 took information were -- they looked at the 13 A. Yes. I've looked through it.
14 different maps, were '32, '53, '56, '58, '74, 14 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER:
15 '83, 1990 and 2001. Now, using that, you then 15 Q. But you don't recall exactly the
16 have to find a similar sort of time period for 16 methodology for how that report dated
17 the U.S. quadrangle maps. And there's only so 17 December 1999 came up with their calculation?
18 many of those that exist. And then you have to 18 A. I know the methodology. There are
19 find habitat maps that show the different types 19 three maps that you have to use to assemble a
20 of marshes. And there's only a certain number 20 habitat map. I know the methodology. And they
21 of those. For instance, there's between 21 all used GIS and they all determine areas in
22 O'Neill 's map which is 1949 and Chabreck 1968, 22 polygons. No, I'm familiar with the
23 there isn't anything. 23 methodology. It's just the exact -- I even
24 Q. So you're describing to me what you 24 think I know the exact map, but I'm -- I'm not
25 used to create your habitat maps. Right? 25 absolutely positive because I can't read it in
Page 227 Page 229
1 A. And, as well as existing information 1 this document right now.
2 out there. 2 Q. Are you familiar with the national
3 Q. So do you know which underlying maps 3 wetlands inventory?
4 were used to create -- to come up with the 4 A. I've heard of it.
5 calculations in this December 1999 habitat 5 Q. And are you aware of habitat maps
6 impacts of the construction of the MRGO 6 produced by -- as part of the national wetlands
7 document? 7 inventory?
8 A. I can guess. 8 A. I don't think so. It doesn't come to
9 Q. Okay. But so you don't know, you're 9 mind. It may come to mind later.
10 just guessing based on what you used for your 10 Q. So the only things you were using, the
11 information? 11 1999 habitat impacts of the construction of the
12 A. Well, I'd have to look through that 12 MRGO report for was selection of the Coast 2050
13 document again. But you have it. 13 mapping unit, is that right?
14 Q. I can give it back to you. I think I 14 A. Yes. And for sake of comparison. I
15 would like to get a copy of this one. Is this 15 wanted to compare what EPA came up with and how
16 the entirety of the document that you reviewed? 16 well it matched with the units that we came up
17 A. No, there are some pages missing out 17 with -- with the areas that we came up with.
18 of this one. 18 And as I just demonstrated, they're pretty
19 Q. Did you, at one point, review the 19 darned close. So we're both doing something,
20 complete document? 20 um -- of similar methodologies. It wouldn't be
21 A. Yeah. I've looked through the, um -- 21 happenstance that we get four categories of
22 I've looked through the complete document, or 22 that close relationship without using similar
23 what has been given to me as the complete 23 databases and similar methodologies.
24 document, of -- I thought I had that document 24 Q. Where the 1999 report identifies
25 here, but -- it seems to -- 25 bottom land scrub shrub as the category, do you

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1 know what that would correspond to in the 1 the type of marsh environment was taken from
2 categories of habitat that you used? 2 O'Neill. The latter two were taken from
3 A. Bottom land shrub and scrub -- that 3 Chabreck. And even Chabreck in his methodology
4 would be something along, um -- fresh marsh to 4 changed somewhat his sampling plan. But
5 intermediate marsh. 5 remember, O'Neill was based on muskrat habitat,
6 Q. Do you know -- so you think where -- 6 and he had nine different categories. So
7 A. I'm guessing there. I'm not -- I'm 7 combining those gave us sources of error that
8 not an ecologist or a, um -- wetlands, um -- 8 the succeeding marsh habitat maps did not.
9 mapping expert. That's not my field of 9 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER:
10 expertise. We used existing databases that 10 Q. I think you said somewhere in your
11 were out there. We didn't do any mapping 11 report that where you could identify sources of
12 ourselves. 12 error you were unable to quantify that in terms
13 Q. Okay. Did you do anything to evaluate 13 of a plus or minus number or a percentage? Is
14 the existing databases? 14 that right?
15 A. Well, I just did. I just compared our 15 A. Can you read that? I'm not sure what
16 results with EPA 's results, and I think 16 you're referring to.
17 they're pretty darned close. 17 Q. I'm not sure, but maybe you can tell
18 Q. But in terms of evaluating the 18 me whether you are able to present your error
19 underlying data, did you do any of that? 19 rate in terms of a number.
20 A. We looked at the various maps 20 A. I did not do this. I'm not the GIS
21 available for the time periods we were looking 21 expert.
22 for. And to that extent we did some historical 22 Q. Okay. So with wrote -- who typed
23 analysis of what was out there. 23 Appendix B?
24 Q. So your evaluation was basically just 24 A. Andrew Milanes. He's the GIS
25 to search for existing maps or data sets? 25 professional, with some fifteen years of
Page 231 Page 233
1 A. For the time periods. We wanted 1 experience.
2 something right before MRGO, something as close 2 Q. So are you --
3 as we could find after MRGO, and then to the 3 A. I relied upon his expertise.
4 present day. 4 Q. Okay. And you didn't really evaluate
5 Q. Uh-huh. 5 the error yourself?
6 A. And those are closest data sources -- 6 A. No, I did not.
7 remember, we're combining three different data 7 Q. Okay. And do you know where it was he
8 sources, so we don't want them separated by too 8 obtained the information to include in Appendix
9 many years. And so it didn't give us an 9 B?
10 opportunity to use too many different sources. 10 A. I think some of it is probably fairly
11 Q. And did you do any sort of evaluation 11 standard GIS, and some of it was material that
12 of what type of error results from combining 12 was presented by the different authors of these
13 three different data sources? 13 data sets, and they discussed the errors.
14 A. Yes. There's a detailed discussion of 14 Q. So it's not necessarily Mr. Milanes'
15 our error analysis in the appendix. 15 writing, he may have --
16 Q. That's Appendix B; is that right? 16 A. It's his writing, it's his words, it's
17 A. Yes. 17 just the error determinations themselves may
18 Q. And it seems that your description 18 have in part come from the authors of the
19 of -- you have these broken down into 1950s, 19 original documents.
20 1960s, and 2000s. It seems to me that what you 20 Q. Okay. And so do you know whether
21 have written there is pretty much the same for 21 Mr. Milanes would be able to express an error
22 each category. Is that correct? 22 rate in terms of a number?
23 MR. DUDENHEFER: 23 A. I don't know. You'd have to ask him.
24 Object to form. 24 Q. But you do not have that number
25 A. No, the first one, remember, was -- 25 yourself, right?

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1 A. No, I don't do GIS. 1 MRGO?
2 Q. So do you know -- each of these three 2 A. Well, we could turn to Page -- it's
3 sections has the statement that each of the 3 Figure -- I believe 4.8. It's on Page 4-21.
4 three data sources were converted to an ESRI 4 This is a coast and geodetic survey quadrangle
5 raster grid format with a cell spacing of 5 map of the central wetlands showing us those
6 thirty meters by thirty meters. The grids were 6 different environments that are depicted on the
7 combined in ESRI ArcMap to create a single 7 left-hand corner, bottom corner of the map.
8 habitat grid image circa the 1950s, '60s or 8 We've made that somewhat easier to see by
9 2000s, depending on which section you're 9 putting colors on the cypress swamp and the
10 reading. And then it says, areas of, quote, no 10 unit that's said to be marsh with scattered
11 data, quote, on the marsh type map (less than 11 cypress trees. So we've colored one darker
12 5 percent of the project area) were classified 12 brown and one lighter brown. And these are
13 using standard mapping procedures. 13 based on the patterns that we -- that are shown
14 Do you know what that means? The 14 on those maps. And so it shows us that the
15 areas of no data on the marsh type map? 15 central wetlands had a vast community of
16 A. I assume if there was no data on the 16 cypress swamp, then some places extended far
17 particular map it's because there was no data 17 out toward Lake Borne, and then beyond that was
18 on that particular map of the area that we were 18 an area of scattered cypress trees. And we've
19 looking, that we had to include. 19 noted from the photographs that we were
20 Q. Do you know what is meant by the 20 recently released and given to us from the Army
21 standard mapping procedures referenced there? 21 Corps of Engineers in December of this past
22 A. I'm sure there are standard procedures 22 year, upon looking at those that was the basis
23 in any set of analysis that you do, and that's 23 of the Day and Shaffer supplemental report
24 what he was stating there. If I did a 24 showing us that even in the 1960s, that there
25 sedimentological analysis, I'd say it was using 25 were extensive regions of phragmites and
Page 235 Page 237
1 a standard set of sieves, for example. 1 extensive areas of clumps of trees and trees
2 Q. Would you be able to explain what a -- 2 that bordered title creeks in what we have
3 A. Standard set of sieves is? Yes. 3 shown here to be the scattered cypress tree
4 (Brief interruption.) 4 environment were actually in some areas more an
5 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER: 5 just scattered trees.
6 Q. Okay. So it's not within your area of 6 Q. And isn't it correct that the legend
7 expertise to explain what the standard mapping 7 on that original map from which Figure 4.8 was
8 procedures were, what the error sources are for 8 drawn refers to the section that you have
9 the GIS mapping, is that correct? 9 called scattered cypress trees as marsh with
10 A. That's correct. 10 scattered cypress trees?
11 Q. On Page 4-2, in the first paragraph 11 A. Yes.
12 you talk about inferences concerning general 12 Q. Have you made any attempt to quantify
13 trends in habitat change were drawn from 1932 13 the areas you have depicted in Figure 4.8 as --
14 T-sheets, 1890 topographic maps and other 14 of the different habitat types?
15 historical data. 15 A. No.
16 A. Right. 16 Q. Have you made any effort to quantify
17 Q. Can you tell me what inferences you're 17 the area of phragmites or clumps or scattered
18 talking about there? 18 trees that you have seen in photography
19 A. Just to get a general idea of the 19 presented to you by John Day and Gary Shaffer?
20 environmental setting, the habitats, the lay of 20 A. No.
21 the land, if you will, what the natural habitat 21 Q. On Page 4-2 of your report you
22 and morphology looked like at that particular 22 indicate that earlier maps indicate a stability
23 time prior to any sort of construction. 23 of habitats and an increase in tree area until
24 Q. And what were the general trends in 24 the 1930s, then a slow decline of marsh and
25 habitat change prior to construction of the 25 swamp area up to the 1950s. Which earlier maps

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1 are you getting that information from? 1 in the study area?
2 A. Those would be the 1890 topographic 2 A. I would say that it is the most
3 maps and other historical data. For example, 3 important factor.
4 if we look back at those diagrams that you 4 Q. But you agree that there are other
5 asked me about earlier, I mean those maps, you 5 factors --
6 can see that in that area there were trees. We 6 A. There are other factors.
7 spent some discussion looking at Figure 1.4, 7 Q. -- contributing?
8 and here it shows those same patterns of trees. 8 A. But I think that's the most important
9 And 1.3, the 1700s map shows trees in this 9 factor.
10 area, too. 10 Q. Why do you think that's the most
11 Q. They both show trees close -- well, is 11 important?
12 there a legend on Figure 1.4 that indicates 12 A. Because it changed vast areas of the
13 where there are trees? 13 habitat that can be seen by a comparison of our
14 A. Um -- well, it's very similar to 14 maps. It severed the Bayou La Loutre ridge, it
15 the -- I don't have a magnifying glass, but I 15 severed the Bayou Ycloskey ridge, it served the
16 think they're depicting trees adjacent to the 16 Bayou Dupre ridge, it served the Bayou
17 Mississippi River. 17 Bienvenue ridge. All of these allowed saline
18 Q. Okay. And you indicate that there was 18 waters to come into the central wetlands.
19 a slow decline of marsh and swamp between the 19 Q. So that changes in hydrology resulted
20 1930s and the 1950s, is that right? 20 from the construction of the channel?
21 A. Correct. 21 A. The changes in the tidal circulation.
22 Q. And the decline of swamp continued 22 And also the movement of water, this water
23 after construction of the MRGO, and you 23 surface flow across the marsh was interrupted
24 attribute that here -- well, first of all, you 24 by the various canals and spoil bank and the
25 state that the decline of swamp continued after 25 protection levee from moving across the marsh
Page 239 Page 241
1 construction of the MRGO. Is that right? 1 and bringing in freshwater to those
2 A. Correct. 2 environments.
3 Q. And you say it's a likely response to 3 Q. So that's what you mean, um -- further
4 changing salinity regimes and hydrology? 4 on down on Page 4-2 where you talk about the
5 A. Correct. 5 1960s and the 2000s habitat data and indicate
6 Q. And you reference impoundments there. 6 that, for example, in the section on 2000s
7 Is there a particular impoundment that you are 7 habitat data the plant communities have
8 referring to? 8 responded to the altered hydrology and salinity
9 A. Well, there's a large impoundment near 9 conditions? That's what you just described
10 the bridge at Paris Road, and there's other 10 regarding the changes in sheet flow and
11 impoundments in that general vicinity. 11 severing of the ridges that you referenced?
12 Q. And those, in your opinion, 12 A. Where exactly are you reading?
13 contributed to the decline of swamp in the 13 Q. The last paragraph on Page 4-2.
14 central wetlands area? 14 A. I'm talking about -- in that
15 A. Well, they were a factor. My major 15 paragraph, we're talking about the plant
16 contributing factor is the introduction of 16 communities have responded to altered hydrology
17 saline waters into that environment. The 17 and salinity conditions of the environment
18 impoundment simply precludes any saltwater from 18 indicating saline water intrusion coming from
19 getting in there, any freshwater getting out. 19 the east and southeast and freshwater
20 So you get more standing water, and some of the 20 diversions coming from Caernarvon. And so the
21 vegetation doesn't like standing water and so 21 Caernarvon area actually freshened, and the
22 it changes or disappears and dies. 22 areas that were impacted by MRGO became more
23 Q. And would you agree that the 23 saline, yeah.
24 construction of the MRGO is one of many factors 24 Q. In the section on the 1906s, you also
25 that contributed to the loss of swamp and marsh 25 say that the 1960s habitat map shows some

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1 freshening of the study area. Where is that 1 Q. Okay.
2 freshening shown? 2 A. -- there's somewhat a disparity in the
3 A. Well, if you look at the central 3 trends there, but perhaps the disparity is a
4 wetlands -- now, what our map shows is that 4 function of different people mapping. Although
5 where we have a change from brackish water to 5 some of that intermediate marsh you can see was
6 intermediate that would indicate a decrease in 6 once a fresh marsh, which again would indicate
7 salinity, and so that would indicate a 7 an increase in salinity.
8 freshening. And I pointed out earlier, if you 8 Q. Okay. Also on Page 4-2, you refer to
9 look around the Lake Borne region, during that 9 Figure 4.2 in Section 4.1.1.
10 particular time there was some freshening. I 10 A. I'm lost. Where are you?
11 mean, there were areas there that were salt 11 Q. You have a lot of different numbering
12 marsh that were transformed into brackish -- I 12 systems. Do you see, on Page 4-2,
13 mean intermediate marsh, and salt marsh that 13 Section 4.1.1, 1950s habitat data?
14 changed from -- to brackish marsh. And if you 14 A. Yes.
15 look at -- if you look at the area where it 15 Q. And you say that the 1950s habitat
16 says -- I'm looking specifically at Figure 4.2. 16 data provides the baseline conditions for the
17 See where it says central wetlands? 17 study area pre-construction, no MRGO?
18 Q. Yes. 18 A. Right.
19 A. And then if you look at that same 19 Q. And you refer to Figure 4.2. So are
20 region, central wetlands is surrounded by fresh 20 you saying there that Figure 4.2 represents
21 marsh and to the east is brackish marsh. There 21 preconstruction habitats?
22 is no intermediate marsh there. And if you 22 A. Yes. As best as we could define it
23 turn to the next page, the 1960s, you find an 23 given the maps and information at hand.
24 intermediate marsh there that in part seems to 24 Q. Okay. So it's Figure 4.2 that offers
25 have taken some of the habitat of the brackish 25 the best baseline conditions?
Page 243 Page 245
1 marsh, indicating a slight freshening. This is 1 A. That's our 19 --
2 what we're talking about. 2 MR. DUDENHEFER:
3 However, this is what the data show, 3 Object to form.
4 but there is one caveat here, and that is that 4 A. That's our 1950s pre-MRGO map.
5 there's two different individuals that decided 5 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER:
6 these habitats, one was looking at muskrat 6 Q. Okay. On Page 4-6 you begin to list a
7 habitat and one was looking at the marsh 7 number of plant species for different marsh
8 habitats using only four categories. And so 8 types. Is that something that you created,
9 what may appear to be freshening in this case, 9 that list?
10 at least in the central wetlands, may be simply 10 A. No. No. This -- I'm sure we can find
11 a product of a different person mapping those 11 similar lists in books on wetlands species,
12 areas. 12 particularly marsh species, but this was
13 Q. So that's just one of the sources of 13 compiled by Karen Westphal who was our plant
14 error in all of these maps is the person 14 specialist.
15 choosing to do the classification? 15 Q. Okay. And are you saying in the first
16 A. It is a source of error. The other 16 paragraph on Page 4-6, the last sentence, you
17 thing to be noted there, as well, the 17 said general trends for habitat change can be
18 indication of an increase in saline 18 determined even if they can not be quantified?
19 environments between these two periods, that is 19 Are you saying there that you're unable to
20 between 1950 and 1960, is the decrease in 20 quantify trends for habitat change?
21 extent of the swamp. This is the cypress swamp 21 A. No. I think what we're saying there,
22 shown in the brown color, and also a 22 or what I know we're saying, is that there's
23 disappearance of the fresh marsh. So those 23 some interpretation based on the symbols on the
24 certainly indicate an encroachment of saltwater 24 map.
25 into this region. So -- 25 Q. Okay.

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1 A. And that people drawing lines around 1 the page. You say these communities can occur
2 clumps of trees, and then there's another clump 2 on the spoil banks of MRGO and in other areas.
3 of trees next door. Do you draw one circle 3 A. Right.
4 around both clumps of trees or do you draw two 4 Q. To your knowledge, do they in fact
5 circles around those individual -- it's that 5 occur in these areas?
6 sort of -- 6 A. I've seen them in some spoil bank
7 Q. And since you're relying on maps 7 locations.
8 created by other people, you don't know how 8 Q. You also talk about, on Page 4-9, live
9 they chose to make those judgment calls, 9 oak forest in the study area. Do you know
10 whether to draw one circle -- 10 where in the study area those are located?
11 A. Right. 11 A. Um -- there's some, um -- forest that
12 Q. -- versus two circles? 12 once existed that you can see from the air on
13 A. Correct. 13 Bayou La Loutre, in some of the meander bends
14 Q. On Page 4-8, you refer in discussing 14 there and some of the levees that define Bayou
15 the swamp in the study area, you say that bald 15 La Loutre. And in some of the regions where
16 cypress swamp community in the study area is 16 they had pumping stations there's some oaks
17 composed almost exclusively of straight tall 17 there.
18 individuals of cypress with a sparse to 18 Q. Uh-huh. So there are still some live
19 moderate subcanopy. You go on to describe a 19 oaks on the Bayou La Loutre ridge?
20 few more things. 20 A. Dead ones. When I went over I think
21 What is the basis for that 21 they were all dead.
22 description? 22 Q. Are there any living like oak in the
23 A. Karen 's familiarity with this area 23 study area?
24 and having lived in this part of the country 24 A. I think there's some, perhaps, near
25 for thirty, forty years. 25 the pumping stations. When I say the pumping
Page 247 Page 249
1 Q. And by the study area, do you mean 1 stations, there's Meraux pumping station that
2 the -- all of the Coast 2050 mapping units that 2 has -- that pumps a good deal of water out in
3 you have evaluated? 3 the central units, and then there's one at the
4 A. She's been studying this area for 4 Corps which is a little bit smaller and the
5 many, many years and has visited almost every 5 extent of trees is less extensive.
6 region within the 2050 units. She's flown over 6 Q. On Page 4-10 you begin by saying the
7 it, she's been on it by boat, she's done 7 study area encompasses 1,095,073 acres. Does
8 experiments there. She's spent a lot of time 8 that refer to all of the Coast 2050 mapping
9 in this region. 9 units that you identify in figure 4.1?
10 Q. So are you talking about swamp that 10 A. I think if you add up all those
11 exists in the present day as opposed to 11 acreages you're going to get a million one.
12 historically in the study area? 12 Q. Okay. So do you consider all of these
13 A. It says -- this community in the study 13 areas relevant to the MRGO?
14 area is composed almost exclusively. 14 A. I think some areas are more important
15 Q. So that, by that, do you mean present 15 than others.
16 day? 16 Q. What do you consider the more
17 A. Yeah. And you can go to forest today 17 important areas?
18 that still exists within the central unit and 18 A. The areas that are inhabited by people
19 look at those trees. 19 and subsequently flooded during Hurricane
20 Q. Did you and your team make any effort 20 Katrina as a result of MRGO.
21 to evaluate density of trees depicted in any of 21 Q. Are the numbers -- okay. So you have
22 these different habitats? 22 the central wetlands as being 42,602 acres and
23 A. No. 23 3.9 percent of your total study area? Is that
24 Q. You also say that, on Page 4-8, bottom 24 right?
25 land hardwood forest -- that's the bottom of 25 A. Correct.

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1 Q. The section that follows on Page 4-11, 1 A. Right. That's environment that's
2 all the way through maybe the remainder -- 2 covered by trees.
3 let's see. Well, I guess the remainder of 3 Q. Okay. So that would be the same then,
4 Section 4 of your report seems -- at least 4 Table 4.2 on Page 4-13?
5 through Page 4-19 seems to be a series of 5 A. Yes.
6 tables and information on the quantification of 6 Q. It's just a quantification of Figure
7 different habitat types lost, or that changed 7 4.3?
8 based on your different habitat maps? Is that 8 A. Correct.
9 right? 9 Q. Okay. Same thing for Table 4.3 and
10 A. Correct. 10 Figure 4.4?
11 Q. So each of these tables, like 4.1, 11 A. Correct. And as you said, there's
12 does that just correspond to the habitat map at 12 different ways that we've displayed that data.
13 Figure 4.2? 13 Q. Okay. Okay. And it looks like at
14 A. You lost me. I'm sorry. 14 least in -- you describe, in Page 4-17 and
15 Q. Well, maybe I got lost in your report. 15 4-18, you talk about the amount of cypress
16 Page 4-11. 16 swamp lost within the study area, and then you
17 A. Okay. I'm at 4-11. 17 describe what it changed to, um -- and you talk
18 Q. You have a table there. Is that just 18 about -- the last sentence of the carry-over
19 a quantification of the areas reflected in 19 paragraph on Page 4-18, um -- 1,313 acres of
20 Figure 4.2? 20 cypress swamp that were converted to other
21 A. Yes. 21 lands, and you seem to attribute that to
22 Q. So if you go to the south Lake Borne 22 development. Is that right for the
23 section of Table 4.1 and look at the different 23 1,313 acres?
24 acreages listed, the first one is for brackish 24 A. Yes. Some was lost to development.
25 marsh, than you can look at Table 4.2 and the 25 Q. Okay. And on your -- your habitat
Page 251 Page 253
1 blue green color and see where those acres are 1 maps don't seem to include development. Where
2 located? Is that right? 2 is it that you got that 1,313 number from?
3 A. Yes. 3 A. From what year?
4 Q. So that's true for all of these -- 4 Q. It's on Page 4-17 to 4-18, and it
5 A. And most of it, as it shows there, is 5 looks like you're discussing changes between
6 water. 6 the 1950s and the 1960s.
7 Q. For the south Lake Borne area? 7 A. Well, you see the yellow there where
8 A. For the Lake Borgne area. Not the 8 it says other land?
9 South Lake -- I'm sorry. The Lake Borgne area. 9 Q. Oh, okay. That refers to development?
10 Q. Okay. Well, that would -- 10 A. Yes.
11 A. I was looking in a different area. 11 Q. So where the brown converts to yellow,
12 Q. It encompasses pretty much lake, 12 that's where you get the 1,313 acres?
13 right? 13 A. Yes.
14 A. It's mostly water. 14 Q. On Page 4-18, the second-to-last
15 Q. That would make sense. 15 paragraph, you're talking about an increase in
16 Okay. In the south Lake Borgne area 16 swamp and in the Bayou Sauvage unit, and then
17 that's shown on Figure 4.2 and in Table 4.1, 17 at the end of that paragraph you say in 2008 an
18 for swamp it lists 558 acres? 18 aerial reconnaissance revealed those area to be
19 A. Right. So you can see that a portion 19 bottom land forest and not cypress swamp?
20 of the -- of the Bayou La Loutre ridges that 20 A. Right. Correct. That was the flight
21 were covered with trees, cypress trees, were 21 that we took with Karen when she took all the
22 within that south Lake Borne mapping unit. 22 pictures trying to reestablish the historical
23 Q. Okay. So that's what the 558 23 photographs for basis of comparison. When we
24 basically refers to, the trees on the La Loutre 24 flew over that region she noted that it was not
25 ridge? 25 cypress swamp, that it was bottom land forest.

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1 Q. And that's just in the Bayou Sauvage 1 models and reports there?
2 region? 2 A. We're talking about the figure that's
3 A. That's where she saw it, yes. 3 shown in Figure 4.6.
4 Q. All right. On Page 4-20, you talk 4 Q. And I think you're saying that that
5 about, in the very first sentence, a variety of 5 figure is often quoted in storm surge models
6 environmental parameters affect the level of 6 and reports, is that right?
7 impact of high-energy storm systems on land 7 A. Yes. It's quoted everywhere.
8 forms in developed areas. What are these 8 Newscasts, magazines, by other scientists,
9 different environmental parameters that you're 9 meetings, conferences, presentations, everybody
10 referencing there? 10 uses that, that the wetland will decrease --
11 A. Environmental parameters would be the 11 for every 2.7 miles of marsh, the wetlands will
12 geomorphology and environmental setting of the 12 decrease the storm surge by one foot.
13 land surface in which the storm was moving 13 Q. And it looks like what you're citing
14 across. The storm surge, the waves, the storm 14 in Figure 4.6 is from a publication dated 1965,
15 itself, those are all environmental factors. 15 and that the figure itself is dated May, 1963.
16 So when we talk about the first line of 16 Are you aware of any more recent
17 defense, as a storm is moving onshore from the 17 studies done to evaluate that relationship?
18 Gulf of Mexico, as I mentioned what seems like 18 A. After Hurricane Rita, someone did some
19 three days ago, the barriers are a speed bump 19 work looking at the attenuation of storm
20 that drastically decrease the energy of a 20 surges, and I know that Jane Smith with the
21 storm. 21 Army Corps of Engineers has looked at the
22 Q. But the extent to which that decrease 22 attenuation of wave energy and perhaps storm
23 may -- 23 surge that's attributed to marshes.
24 A. And then we come up to other 24 Q. And are you aware of whether the graph
25 environmental factors, such as the marsh 25 in Figure 4.6 is -- remains consistent with
Page 255 Page 257
1 systems themselves. As we get into more 1 more recent methodology for making such an
2 freshwater environments we start reaching areas 2 evaluation?
3 of trees, of, um -- typha, areas of phragmites, 3 A. People are still using it.
4 areas that would present roughness, decrease 4 Q. Have you evaluated the methodology
5 wave energy and storm surge. 5 that went into creating Figure 4.6?
6 Q. Any quantification of the decrease 6 A. A little bit. They looked at the
7 that may occur as a result of barrier islands 7 storm surge heights as you moved inland during
8 or different vegetation further inland is not 8 I think it was seven different storms, and --
9 something that's within your area of expertise 9 yeah, seven different storms -- and that was
10 to quantify, is that right? 10 their database. And it's not a regression
11 A. I have not done that. 11 curve. I'm not sure exactly what curve it is,
12 Q. Would you know how to go about doing 12 but, um -- that's what everybody uses.
13 it? 13 Q. But this is not something that is
14 A. My post-doc is a hydrodynamic model. 14 within your area of expertise to measure?
15 Yes, I do. 15 A. I haven't done it. I mean, to go out
16 Q. So you would -- 16 there and measure the heights of the storm
17 A. Would use -- 17 surge, yes, I'd say I would be -- I'd say lots
18 Q. -- employ the assistance of the 18 of people could do that, and look at the
19 hydrodynamic modelers to make that evaluation? 19 distance from those high water marks, from the
20 A. Yes. 20 coast, and I think lots of people could
21 Q. And at the end of that paragraph you 21 generate a curve like that if they had the time
22 talk about a number that is so often quoted in 22 and facilities and personnel.
23 storm surge models and reports. 23 Q. This is not something that at this
24 A. Yes. 24 time you have made any evaluation of on your
25 Q. Are you referring to the specific 25 own?

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1 A. No. 1 Q. So that should be added?
2 Q. Figure 4.8 on Page 4-21 -- if you turn 2 A. That should be added, yes.
3 back to Page 4-20, you describe that map, and 3 (Brief recess.)
4 you say it shows a distribution of trees and 4 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER:
5 cypress swamp in the 1930s that provided 5 Q. Okay. So you were saying that the
6 natural buffering to storm surge before 6 information on land loss presented in Section 5
7 anthropogenic development, including cypress 7 of your report is based on the study by Britsch
8 logging, affected the hydrology of the region. 8 and Dunbar that I believe is referenced in your
9 Is it your opinion that Figure 4.8 9 Figures 5.1, 5.2 -- 5.3 and 5.4; is that the
10 represents the area of, that logging of the 10 study you're referring to dated 2006?
11 area occurred subsequently to the 1930s? 11 A. What did you just say? I'm sorry.
12 A. No, I think it occurred as I've been 12 Q. I believe you testified that the land
13 told by Day and Shaffer, that it occurred in 13 loss information you present --
14 the late -- it occurred in the late 1800s, 14 A. Yeah. It's' all Britsch and Dunbar,
15 early 1900s, and this was regrowth following 15 January 2006.
16 that earlier harvesting of the trees. 16 Q. Okay. So where you show on Page
17 Q. Okay. So is your statement on Page 17 5-1 -- Table 5.1 you've calculated a number of
18 4-20 something that you relied on John Day and 18 acres for the different mapping units that you
19 Gary Shaffer to provide the information about 19 have used, those were calculated based on the
20 logging impacting the hydrology of the area? 20 Britsch and Dunbar study? Is that right?
21 A. When you look at the maps and you also 21 A. Yes.
22 fly over the area, you can see logging scars. 22 Q. Have you evaluated the processes
23 So I think we all understand that the area was 23 impacting land loss?
24 logged. 24 A. Have I evaluated them?
25 Q. Okay. 25 Q. Uh-huh. Is that part of what you do,
Page 259 Page 261
1 A. And, um -- they were the individuals 1 evaluate processes that impact land loss?
2 who told me when it was logged. 2 A. Well, through my experience I know
3 Q. Okay. Have you yourself performed any 3 when you bring a lot of saline water into what
4 land loss studies in the area that you describe 4 was once a freshwater environment it is going
5 in your expert report? 5 to disturb that environmental setting and
6 A. No, I have not. 6 change it and also cause the demise of some of
7 Q. And what studies are you relying on to 7 the plant species. It's like taking a Daisy
8 create Section 5 of your report? 8 and putting it in saltwater. It's going to
9 A. The land loss comes from maps by 9 die. So opening up MRGO and severing those
10 Britsch and Dunbar. 10 major and minor bayous directly impact the
11 Q. Okay. 11 central wetlands unit, bringing in saltwater
12 A. And those are referenced -- 12 and changing those communities and killing the
13 Q. I think they're -- on Page 5-3 we 13 cypress trees to a large extent, changing the
14 begin a series of maps. Is that it? 14 freshwater marsh to a saline marsh, the
15 A. I was just looking for -- 15 decreasing height of that vegetation was seen,
16 Q. Oh, the bibliography? 16 and the demise of the phragmites and some of
17 A. And for some reason that seems to have 17 the other plant communities, and turned it into
18 escaped us. 18 a marsh that was much lower and a much saltier
19 MR. STEVENS: 19 marsh.
20 Meaning it's not in the 20 Q. What you've just described, then, in
21 bibliography? 21 terms of changes to the types of plants in the
22 THE WITNESS: 22 marsh, that is different from loss of land,
23 No. It's not in the 23 right?
24 bibliography. 24 A. Yes, it is.
25 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER: 25 Q. So the land loss is you're referencing

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1 when the land turns to water, is that right? 1 not done that analysis.
2 A. Talking about specifically the central 2 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER:
3 wetland unit. But as far as land loss goes, 3 Q. Okay. So are you attributing an
4 the major land loss was along MRGO. The 4 increase in land loss rates to the MRGO?
5 tripling of its initial footprint. 5 A. Along the pathway of MRGO. (Nods
6 Q. What do you mean the major land loss? 6 affirmatively.)
7 You mean in the central wetlands unit? 7 Q. Okay. So your Table 5.2, all of these
8 A. No. Adjacent to the central wetlands 8 mapping units you've listed loss rates in acres
9 unit. 9 per year, you're not necessarily attributing an
10 Q. But not necessarily through the entire 10 increase in the loss per year only to the MRGO?
11 coast? 11 A. Um --
12 A. Not necessarily for the entire coast. 12 Q. I guess I can maybe rephrase that.
13 Q. Have you evaluated the land loss rates 13 Table 5.2, you've listed loss rates for all of
14 for the entire coast? 14 your mapping units.
15 A. No, I have not. 15 A. Right.
16 Q. All right. So you have expressed on 16 Q. Are you attributing that loss to the
17 Page 5-7 rate of land loss in the MRGO study 17 MRGO?
18 area? 18 A. Well, some of it is due to natural
19 (Brief interruption.) 19 subsidence. But certainly there are areas that
20 A. You were saying? 20 MRGO has impacted those areas in which it's
21 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER: 21 contiguous with.
22 Q. Page 5-7, you have a table that is 22 Q. But you agree that there are other
23 titled Rate of Land Loss in the MRGO Study 23 factors impacting land loss?
24 Area. 24 A. Yes. But in many of those units it is
25 A. Yes. 25 the major factor.
Page 263 Page 265
1 Q. Is this again taken from the Britsch 1 Q. All right. And you have in here that
2 and Dunbar report? 2 you're contrasting land loss rates with the
3 A. Yes. 3 rate calculated in the MRGO had not been
4 Q. And so you evaluated through that 4 constructed?
5 report land loss in what you're calling the 5 A. Right.
6 MRGO study area but not for the coast as a 6 Q. And how is it you're coming up with
7 whole? Is that right? 7 the rate calculated if you're assuming the MRGO
8 A. This was evaluated for each one of the 8 was not constructed? Or how do you come up
9 2050 units from material that was supplied by 9 with the rate that you consider to be the land
10 that Britsch and Dunbar study and tabulated and 10 loss that would have occurred had the MRGO not
11 presented in different forms by Andrew Milanes. 11 been constructed?
12 Q. Do you know whether the land loss rate 12 A. You take away the initial footprint of
13 has accelerated throughout the coast after 13 MRGO through these areas.
14 1958, not only in the vicinity of the MRGO? 14 Q. Okay. And you say at the bottom of
15 MR. STEVENS: 15 Page 5-7, it appears that this increase in
16 Can I get a clarification? When 16 coastal land loss will continue as long as MRGO
17 you say for the entire coast, you mean 17 is not closed?
18 the entire coast of what? 18 A. Correct. That's what it says.
19 MS. MILLER: 19 Q. Does that mean that -- in the
20 Louisiana. 20 paragraph that that sentence concludes, you
21 MR. STEVENS: 21 seem to be talking about the entire study area.
22 Okay. 22 A. Well, MRGO touches -- goes through
23 A. I've not compared the land loss rates 23 many of these mapping units. And it has either
24 in the 2050 mapping units compared to areas in 24 provided an opportunity for waves to erode
25 Barataria Bay and areas to the west. I have 25 these areas and accelerate erosion, or it has

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1 brought in salt water and has changed that 1 Q. Okay. So that --
2 environment and the plants haven't adapted 2 A. We just simply extended those to
3 quickly enough such that those plants have died 3 the -- to no more land and see where they
4 and the wetlands have died, as well, and become 4 intercepted the time axis, the X axis.
5 water. 5 Q. And that means that all of the mapping
6 Q. And is it your opinion that if the 6 units that are shown in this Figure 4.1 on Page
7 MRGO is closed coastal land loss rates would 7 4-1, that all of that land would be gone, under
8 decrease? 8 that hypothetical? Is that what you're saying?
9 A. Not necessarily. I mean, that's a 9 A. By 2245.
10 study for -- 10 Q. So either way, all of -- whether the
11 MR. DUDENHEFER: 11 MRGO was built or not, the land was
12 Object to the form. 12 deteriorating?
13 A. That's a study that's going to have to 13 A. No, that just shows the hypothetical,
14 be done by wetland ecologists, and involved 14 and what it is there to generate is interest
15 with hydrodynamic modelers to look at how long 15 and consideration that we need to do something
16 it's going to take to convert those areas to a 16 about it. And so that's not an eventuality
17 fresher water community. And it's going to be 17 unless man doesn't react to that, we don't have
18 a very involved study. So I can't say off the 18 diversion projects, we don't close up MRGO, we
19 top of my head exactly how this habitat will 19 don't bring to bear all the measures that we
20 change if you turned off MRGO tomorrow. I 20 can do to reduce that subsidence or reduce that
21 mean, that's beyond my field of expertise. 21 land loss, to create new land and so on.
22 Q. Okay. And that would probably involve 22 Q. And under your hypothetical of had the
23 factors other than simply the MRGO alone? 23 MRGO never been built, the area would last
24 A. Right. But on the other hand, it can 24 another 31 years, that also assumes no
25 only get better if they do that. I mean, if 25 proactive efforts to --
Page 267 Page 269
1 they stop the saline intrusion, if they cordon 1 A. Right.
2 off some of these areas in which the saltwater 2 Q. -- prevent loss that would naturally
3 can intrude into the wetlands, that would 3 occur?
4 certainly be of benefit. 4 A. Right.
5 Q. On Page 5-8, the last thing you've 5 Q. Are there any opinions expressed in
6 written there in the text section is that -- 6 your report that you no longer agree with?
7 and again you seem to be referencing the entire 7 A. No.
8 study area which I assume includes all of your 8 Q. And we may have touched on this, but
9 mapping units, I guess is that -- when you say 9 Appendix D, you also have photography with an
10 entire study area, you mean all of the mapping 10 overlay of a 2005 shoreline?
11 units? 11 A. Right.
12 A. Yes. 12 Q. Do you know whether the 2005 shoreline
13 Q. So you say, without MRGO the rate of 13 depicted in Appendix B represents the pre or
14 land loss calculated at 1,692 acres lost per 14 post-Katrina?
15 year would have allowed the area to persist 15 A. Um -- no, I don't.
16 until 2245, an additional 31 years? 16 Q. And before I forget, I marked a copy
17 A. Right. It's obviously hypothetical. 17 of your expert report as Exhibit 9, the
18 But given what has happened along MRGO, you can 18 July 11th, 2008 report that we've been
19 project that into the future and also look at 19 discussing.
20 if MRGO were not there, and that's where we 20 (Exhibit 9 was marked for
21 come up with a difference of 31 years. 21 identification and is attached hereto.)
22 Q. And that's assuming a constant rate of 22 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER:
23 loss, is that right? 23 Q. Can you tell me who it is that's
24 A. Yeah. The rates of loss that we have 24 employing you to work on this litigation?
25 tabulated there in Figure 5.6. 25 A. Es2.

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DUNCAN FITZGERALD February 11, 2009
Page 270 Page 272
1 Q. So you're working as a consultant to 1 around the 7th of August, 2008.
2 them? 2 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER:
3 A. (Nods affirmatively.) 3 Q. Did you ever see that document?
4 Q. And do you know how many hours you've 4 A. No.
5 spent working on the litigation so far? 5 MR. STEVENS:
6 A. I've got a, um -- a detailed list of 6 We may have what you're looking
7 that right there. (Tendering.) My most recent 7 for already.
8 invoice has not been submitted, but -- that's 8 MS. MILLER:
9 up until recently. Through January, I believe. 9 And I'm not sure -- this list was
10 MS. MILLER: 10 compiled right after receiving the
11 Can we get a copy of this? 11 expert reports.
12 MR. STEVENS: 12 MR. STEVENS:
13 You can have that one. 13 Oh, this is a list you all made.
14 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER: 14 MS. MILLER:
15 Q. Okay. I guess I don't have to mark 15 The United States sent this to
16 that as an exhibit. But you represent that 16 the plaintiffs sometime around the
17 this document is copies of your invoices? 17 date on here.
18 A. Yes. 18 A. I don't think I have ever seen that.
19 MR. STEVENS: 19 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER:
20 Up to a point. 20 Q. I think today there have been
21 MS. MILLER: 21 additional things identified, like the
22 Right. 22 photography that was taken on the helicopter
23 (Off the record.) 23 flight that we would like to get copies of.
24 MR. DUDENHEFER: 24 A. So that's aerial photography that was
25 Let's attach it. 25 taken during the May helicopter flight, and
Page 271 Page 273
1 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER: 1 you'd like copies of that.
2 Q. So Exhibit 10 will be what you gave me 2 Q. Yes. And we can discuss that with the
3 for your invoices. 3 attorneys.
4 (Exhibit 10 was marked for 4 MR. DUDENHEFER:
5 identification and is attached hereto.) 5 We'll discuss --
6 A. Okay. 6 MS. MILLER:
7 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER: 7 Putting on the record that we'll
8 Q. You've also, as we've gone along 8 make a request for some of these
9 today, identified a number of things that I 9 things.
10 don't know that we have gotten copies of, like 10 MR. DUDENHEFER:
11 the underlying information that you used to 11 We'll tell you what the
12 create a number of your figures, the 12 appropriate response will be.
13 photography that was taken during an aerial 13 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER:
14 flight, a bathymetric survey, and I think some 14 Q. Dr. FitzGerald, did you at any point
15 other things, and we would be entitled to 15 yourself go to the Corps of Engineers or
16 copies of all of that and would request that 16 another government agency to review photography
17 that be produced. 17 for this litigation?
18 MR. STEVENS: 18 A. Um -- we went up to -- yes, we did
19 Whatever you want. Do you have a 19 take a trip. Um -- same time we visited
20 list or did you make notes about what 20 Andrew 's office. We went up to some area to
21 they were? 21 lock at vertical aerial photographs.
22 MS. MILLER: 22 Q. Do you know the date of the
23 I can make the lift later. I do 23 photography that you were looking at?
24 have, um -- a list what was sent to 24 A. It was historical photography.
25 the plaintiffs' attorneys sometime 25 Q. And did you make any copies of that

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Page 274 Page 276
1 photography? 1 MR. STEVENS:
2 A. We didn't make any copies. We 2 No, I wouldn't think that's the
3 didn't -- other than simple background 3 entirety of all the pictures, but
4 information, I don't think we learned anything 4 that's the day.
5 substantial. 5 MS. MILLER:
6 Q. Is there somebody that might have a 6 Okay. And, you know, this
7 record of what it was you reviewed? 7 obviously was something presented for
8 A. My coauthor Mike Miner may have that. 8 all of the experts not only
9 Q. Okay. All right. 9 Dr. FitzGerald so I wouldn't expect
10 MS. MILLER: 10 him to produce materials that other
11 I think I'm going to attach this 11 people relied on.
12 list of data just for the record. 12 EXAMINATION BY MS. MILLER:
13 MR. STEVENS: 13 Q. Okay. I think that's all I have.
14 Yes. I can't admit nor deny that 14 Thank you, Dr. FitzGerald.
15 we got it. It was sent to someone 15 A. You're welcome.
16 other than me. But you can attach it 16 EXAMINATION BY MR. STEVENS:
17 if you like so we'll at least know 17 Q. Let me just ask one quick follow-up
18 what you presented. 18 before we leave. Doc, you said you were going
19 A. I've never seen it. 19 to do something as a follow-up. It's not
20 MR. STEVENS: 20 really anything knew, you were just going to
21 And the witness has never seen 21 try to coordinate the -- I don't remember how
22 it. And frankly I've never seen the 22 you described it, but the levee heights with
23 list before you handed it to me 23 the --
24 either. 24 A. The dredging records and the geology.
25 MR. DUDENHEFER: 25 Q. Right. Do you anticipate that that is
Page 275 Page 277
1 And obviously any attachment 1 going to change any of the opinions you've
2 creates no implication on the part of 2 given in this case?
3 the plaintiffs as to the accuracy of 3 A. No.
4 anything. We'll just do it so we know 4 Q. Why is that?
5 what we're referring to doing this 5 A. Well, because it, um -- it's looking
6 discussion. 6 at other aspects of the problem. It's not
7 MS. MILLER: 7 looking at the growth in the size or width of
8 Okay. So this will be 8 MRGO, it's not looking at the changes of
9 Exhibit 11. 9 habitats as a result of saltwater intrusion,
10 (Exhibit 11 was marked for 10 it's simply looking at a record that would
11 identification and is attached hereto.) 11 indicate correlation between the height of the
12 MR. STEVENS: 12 levee and, thus, its susceptibility to wave
13 And I'm noticing under Morris 13 attack and overtopping during storm events as
14 here on this list it says results of 14 related to dredging records and the underlying
15 bathymetric surveys, April of '08. I 15 sedimentology of the region.
16 think that's what he was referring to. 16 Q. Let me ask you, in terms of your work
17 MS. MILLER: 17 in this field, do you customarily rely upon
18 That may be the same thing? 18 information from GIS professionals like
19 MR. STEVENS: 19 Mr. Milanes and biologists like --
20 That's what you were looking for. 20 A. Karen Westphal.
21 And then the aerial photographs, 21 Q. -- like Ms. Westphal? And is that the
22 the helicopter photographs are in the 22 type of stuff that experts in your field
23 report, Page 2-5. 23 customarily rely upon in forming opinions like
24 MS. MILLER: 24 you've offered here today?
25 That's the entirety of -- 25 A. Standard practice.

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Page 278 Page 280
1 Q. Okay. And did you apply in this 1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
2 situation the same degree of scientific rigor 2 I, JOSEPH A. FAIRBANKS, JR., CCR, RPR,
3 in forming your opinions that you would have 3 Certified Court Reporter in and for the State
4 done if you were doing this same project for 4 of Louisiana, do hereby certify that the
5 private industry, for a professional 5 aforementioned witness, after having been first
6 presentation, or a peer reviewed journal 6 duly sworn by me to testify to the truth, did
7 article? 7 testify as hereinabove set forth;
8 A. Absolutely. 8 That said deposition was taken by me
9 Q. Okay. Thank you. Those are all the 9 in computer shorthand and thereafter
10 questions I have. 10 transcribed under my supervision, and is a true
11 A. Great. 11 and correct transcription to the best of my
12 12 ability and understanding.
13 13 I further certify that I am not of
14 14 counsel, nor related to counsel or the parties
15 15 hereto, and am in no way interested in the
16 16 result of said cause.
17 17
18 18
19 19
20 20
21 21
22 22
23 23 ____________________________________
24 24 JOSEPH A. FAIRBANKS, JR., CCR, RPR
25 25 CERTIFIED COURT REPORTER #75005
Page 279
1 WITNESS' CERTIFICATE
2
3 I, DUNCAN M. FITZGERALD, Ph.D., do
4 hereby certify that the foregoing testimony was
5 given by me, and that the transcription of said
6 testimony, with corrections and/or changes, if
7 any, is true and correct as given by me on the
8 aforementioned date.
9
10 ______________ _________________________
11 DATE SIGNED DUNCAN M. FITZGERALD, Ph.D.
12
13 _______ Signed with corrections as noted.
14
15 _______ Signed with no corrections noted.
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25 DATE TAKEN: February 11th, 2009

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Page 281

A 62:1 63:20 77:4 129:6,13 137:9 163:11 240:17 answered 198:3


abandoned 84:8 79:9 173:2 183:22 141:7 149:14 267:15 anthropogenic
ability 7:11 34:15 204:14 222:4 159:23 162:10,13 allows 17:15 147:2 258:7
58:15 118:23 acreages 249:11 238:16 262:8 alongshore 17:3 anticipate 108:21
183:19 191:15 250:24 adjunct 23:24 46:8 49:10,23,25 131:4 276:25
280:12 acres 59:16 154:11 administering 5:24 50:12 60:7 anybody 101:8
able 7:15 40:6 56:5 156:16 159:12,25 admit 274:14 alongside 147:23 103:8 105:20
56:8 58:19 155:2 172:11 173:21 adopted 219:25 altered 241:8,16 anytime 58:17
176:13 188:21 174:8,20,25 221:8 amazing 104:7 anyway 140:13
232:18 233:21 175:20 177:14 advance 120:2 Amended 12:2 apex 146:1
235:2 184:15,15 185:14 151:3 AMERICA 2:15 APLC 2:2
aboard 25:19 205:21 218:22 aerial 31:10 32:16 American 134:10 apologize 156:20
absolutely 47:3 223:18,19,20,21 32:19 37:16 63:10 amount 47:12 66:4 apparently 52:1
137:17 142:3 224:1,2,6,9,10 63:12 177:1 181:5 87:18 120:20,21 165:18
180:24 181:13 249:7,22 251:1,18 187:4,10 188:9,11 128:21 129:3 appear 190:8 204:3
190:10 211:24 252:19,23 253:12 253:18 271:13 190:17 197:11 243:9
228:25 278:8 260:18 264:8 272:24 273:21 200:10 209:14 appears 119:9
absorbing 58:21 267:14 275:21 210:6 222:4 198:20 199:5
accelerate 20:9 action 1:4 23:3 affect 7:11 18:18 252:15 203:9,25 265:15
265:25 109:23 190:20 65:17 254:6 AMQUA 134:9 appendices 80:19
accelerated 19:15 active 44:21 affirmatively 264:6 analyses 74:24 appendix 165:9
263:13 actively 99:25 270:3 221:6 177:18 197:18
acceleration 19:21 activities 97:7 aforementioned analysis 44:15 199:18,24 200:1,5
access 87:10,12 activity 51:11 5:4 279:8 280:5 75:24 197:14 217:20 231:15,16
210:2,20 94:20 124:10 age 15:5,6 230:23 231:15 232:23 233:8
accommodate 129:12,19 131:15 agencies 42:2 234:23,25 264:1 269:9,13
19:17 actual 31:25 76:14 180:19 analyzed 48:14 apply 278:1
accompany 16:17 78:18 116:10 agency 273:16 Anathasio 182:16 approach 115:20
Accompanying 141:1 143:8 agenda 21:16 anchored 58:25 appropriate 273:12
15:23 201:19 ago 27:23 29:12 Andrew 29:1,5 approximate 51:18
account 8:21 9:1 adapted 266:2 31:9 57:10,10,12 30:15 44:18 77:22 approximately
115:8 add 95:3 116:2 57:21 82:2 92:1 90:13 111:20,24 14:15 77:9 130:9
accounts 102:25 172:14 249:10 254:19 111:24 154:20 April 28:10 42:24
accumulate 100:12 added 74:8 112:13 agree 104:23 163:16,19 164:13 275:15
100:15 136:11 150:7 239:23 240:4 168:13 169:4 arc 47:7 55:7
accumulates 72:24 201:11 260:1,2 264:22 269:6 171:2,5 175:13 archaic 62:14
116:7 adding 42:21 AGREED 5:2 180:6 191:3 ArcMap 234:7
accuracy 275:3 addition 29:1 65:3 ahead 21:25 98:5 199:25 232:24 area 16:4,5 18:12
accurate 196:9 65:15,16 134:18 124:16 147:16 263:11 273:20 20:16,20,23 23:22
197:8,15 198:23 additional 43:4,17 air 164:21 218:18 and/or 279:6 24:16 25:25 28:20
199:6 93:25 94:18 97:9 248:12 angle 102:20 29:20 30:25 31:4
acknowledge 178:8 122:13 134:2 airplane 31:1 angular 140:23 31:18 37:15,18,20
acquire 126:23 137:3 267:16 alignment 114:18 answer 5:13 6:20 37:21,24 39:6
acquired 126:19,23 272:21 alive 204:2,3 7:19 12:15 21:18 45:21 50:14,20
acreage 49:18,22 address 96:24 allow 52:9 62:17 37:25 52:13,22 51:4,9,24 56:14
56:14 59:10 60:12 adds 96:17 68:10 191:14 66:23 70:13 97:23 67:5,25 78:19
adjacent 68:15 allowed 99:9,11 98:6 191:4,14 79:9 87:14 101:18

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103:21 105:12 132:6 139:5 152:17 194:14,17 256:22 162:23 164:3


108:1 118:4,7,10 145:17 148:15 217:9,12 238:5 attorney 6:10 42:4 167:23 172:3,20
119:20 137:9 155:2,7,8 158:15 asking 6:18 38:2 attorneys 127:23 178:1 183:12
143:6,13,19 144:4 159:2,4,6 162:6 207:22 208:21 128:12 271:25 192:5,7 200:12
145:24 146:9 162:10,13 166:25 209:11 273:3 225:3 227:14
147:18 148:9 172:12,15 178:10 aspect 203:2 attribute 183:2 238:4 258:3
151:3,7,16 158:14 178:24,25 179:3 aspects 44:2 277:6 186:9 238:24 backbarrier 19:3,7
158:21,24 159:24 183:1,8 184:7,12 assemble 228:19 252:21 19:9 65:14 134:20
160:1 164:23 184:17 189:16 assembling 82:13 attributed 182:23 background 16:7
165:7 167:4,5 190:6 199:4 assembly 120:9 183:4,9,23 256:23 80:18 274:3
169:8,24 170:3 200:23 208:4 assessing 149:17 attributing 206:22 backwards 103:5
171:18 173:12,19 209:20 213:22 assistance 255:18 264:3,9,16 bald 246:15
174:16 175:25 216:4 218:14,17 associate 45:14 audience 149:11 bank 100:16
176:14 182:15 228:21 229:17 associated 101:1 August 11:6 76:24 101:10 117:6
185:13 186:19,20 234:10,15 237:1,4 197:11 86:17 272:1 140:8,16,19,19
191:2 192:5,12,16 237:13 240:12 association 35:20 author 111:15 141:22,25 142:15
192:17,18 193:14 241:22 242:11 134:10 authored 13:12 143:5 150:18
193:18 194:2,12 243:12 248:2,5 assume 7:2 69:13 127:8 151:17 152:6,14
206:13 207:8,10 249:13,14,17,18 81:9 163:14 168:9 authors 28:25 152:14 178:11
207:11 209:2,5,18 250:19 254:8 211:7 234:16 44:23 233:12,18 182:15 183:24
210:7 212:5,19 255:2,3,4 263:24 267:8 available 35:16 209:8,21,23
213:16,19,21,23 263:25 264:19,20 assumes 268:24 121:6 171:16 223:14 240:24
214:4,7,14,17 265:13,25 266:16 assuming 265:7 180:18 226:1 248:6
234:12,18 235:6 267:2 267:22 230:21 banking 143:9
236:18 237:17,23 Army 13:12,25 as-built 200:21,25 Avenue 6:3 banks 20:5 98:25
237:25 238:6,10 23:4 41:24 44:1 201:1,10,17 202:7 average 98:19 142:7,22 150:4
239:14 240:1 53:8 77:15,18 Atlantic 15:23 103:3,6 108:15 160:14 181:16
241:21 242:1,15 89:6 99:1 101:13 attach 81:12 120:20,21 121:5 202:5 248:2
244:17 246:15,16 102:11,25 113:23 270:25 274:11,16 182:11 bar 100:3,19
246:23 247:1,4,12 114:2 116:3 attached 12:7 22:9 averaged 120:23 Barataria 20:23,25
247:14 248:9,10 122:20 126:20 82:6 83:10 84:14 avulses 85:22 263:25
248:23 249:7,23 136:20 138:24 86:22 111:5 aware 23:11 95:5 Baronne 1:12
251:7,8,9,11,16 139:2,3,12 200:21 215:24 269:21 108:2,23 135:18 Barras 91:16 96:8
252:16 253:18 236:20 256:21 271:5 275:11 149:11 209:7,18 127:3
255:9 257:14 Arpent 167:2 attachment 12:10 229:5 256:16,24 barrier 17:2 39:19
258:10,11,20,22 arrive 163:15 275:1 axis 85:1,8 268:4,4 47:7,13,23 48:11
258:23 259:4 165:25 attack 102:15 48:13 50:7 54:10
262:18,24 263:6 arrives 119:25 140:9,17,23 141:5 B 55:7,24 56:4,10
265:21 267:8,10 arrow 136:2 141:6 277:13 B 4:7 231:16 58:19,24 59:1
267:15 268:23 article 15:25 83:13 attacking 142:20 232:23 233:9 60:7 65:24 68:10
273:20 278:7 181:20,21 269:13 69:5,6,7 76:15,23
areas 18:24 19:24 articulation 204:23 attempt 150:6 back 26:12 46:6 77:8 220:16 255:7
38:17,20,20 83:19 asked 8:10,17,22 204:8 237:12 51:24 52:3 54:1 barriers 38:12 54:1
92:23 108:4,6,9 8:24 27:15 42:11 attempted 37:11 56:3 57:15 59:6,7 55:25 56:5,8
108:10 120:24,24 42:12 97:11 attention 34:17 73:1 74:8 78:9 64:23,25 65:9
121:9,23 129:12 111:17 133:16 192:15 220:18 89:7 98:16 99:10 67:11 75:7 76:13
129:13,15,17,24 134:1 140:3 attenuation 256:19 112:4 133:13 254:19

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bars 120:8 121:25 169:25 174:23 69:11 77:2,3 Bluish 174:15 192:8,18,25 193:9
baseball 102:2 212:6,12,19 216:16,19 boat 25:19 108:25 223:13,23 242:5
based 62:18 71:16 240:14,15,16,16 berms 87:14 109:17,18 110:6 242:12,14,21,25
121:5,20 149:22 248:13,14,19 216:14 247:7 250:24
152:25 155:11 251:20 253:16 Bernard 23:8 55:8 Bob 131:9 133:19 brainchild 132:22
165:17 166:21 254:1 85:6 104:17 body 13:4 146:15 BRANCH 2:17
167:24 168:7,8,17 bayous 85:4 91:10 144:16 145:12 book 165:15 breaches 1:4 54:5
168:18 171:4 261:10 154:10 169:8 171:11 76:22,25 216:12
175:17 180:11 bays 100:10 best 44:14 90:2 books 245:11 216:14
182:1 187:3,4,9 Bea 131:9 133:19 172:4 191:15 bookshelf 15:3 breaching 17:1
188:9 201:25 beach 17:18,21 244:22,25 280:11 border 87:5 145:23 breadth 87:18
202:3 227:10 57:13 58:3,4,22 better 74:13 91:3 145:25 147:13,13 break 7:17,20
232:5 236:13 beaches 58:9 123:9 92:21,23 97:14 bordered 116:21 17:17 54:24 60:6
245:23 250:8 bear 268:19 116:14 266:25 237:2 80:8 81:18 95:16
260:7,19 becoming 169:19 beyond 170:11 Borgne 146:19 97:22 98:1,3,6,13
baseline 244:16,25 191:2 236:17 266:21 194:12 223:6 102:20 110:22
basic 6:17 8:21 began 24:21 25:8 bibliography 251:8,9,16 124:17,21,24
147:5 36:9 220:22 259:16,21 Borne 25:25 125:15 127:16
basically 23:4 beginning 27:14 259:24 146:14,14 147:3 128:1 142:14,15
28:21 39:2 131:17 60:2 112:5,20 Bickham 78:20 147:14 169:9 142:23 172:8
160:6 163:10 121:3 172:2 Bienvenue 121:19 173:8 192:7,17,21 179:12 212:15
172:22 230:24 197:14 240:17 194:5 195:22 215:21
251:24 begins 27:1 162:16 big 95:7,17 96:9 218:20 236:17 breaking 17:20,21
basin 24:19 144:14 begun 25:10 biological 186:6 242:9 250:22 58:22,23 142:12
144:17 170:22 believe 14:12 28:10 biologists 277:19 251:7,22 142:19 143:8
basing 145:5 71:15 77:17 96:12 biology 29:17 borrow 87:4,6 breaks 7:21 47:6
basis 112:24 123:2 127:1,14 biomass 20:8,11 Boston 6:2,3 8:1 141:16 143:10
121:11 197:13 138:15 151:22 bios 84:24 bottom 40:4 75:19 breezes 109:22,23
236:22 246:21 155:3,18 168:13 bird 119:17 75:23 125:18 Breton 44:9,9,12
253:23 168:24 180:23 bit 10:12 12:21 143:24 205:6,15 44:25 45:2,9,13
bathymetric 67:24 202:14 204:15 66:18 72:4 100:18 205:16 208:20 45:15 46:13,18
68:1 69:17 71:6 208:24 236:3 117:14,22 118:5 209:12 210:4 48:17,20,22 49:8
71:20 78:12,14 260:8,12 270:9 122:13,19 123:19 215:14 229:25 49:13,15,19 50:9
137:22 138:3,23 bending 102:19 140:14 143:7 230:3 236:7 50:13 51:8,10,14
140:6 152:19 bends 197:2,3 153:18 214:5 247:24,25 253:19 51:17 52:5 53:19
201:23 202:1,3 248:13 224:7 249:4 257:6 253:25 265:14 54:3 55:4,24
271:14 275:15 beneath 64:25 black 115:21 boulders 123:24 56:12 59:16,20,25
bathymetry 52:3 101:11 143:21 block 156:2 Boulevard 2:4 61:10 62:1 63:20
53:7 71:9 78:18 beneficial 63:4 blocks 20:13 boundary 111:9 64:13,16 67:18
78:23 76:19 77:5,16 129:10 136:23 213:10 226:11 68:8,11,16 71:9
bay 16:6,6 21:1 78:4 216:9 217:11 blowing 140:22 Box 2:20 72:8 73:4,7,13
100:12,15,20,23 217:18,24 218:7 blow-by-blow brackish 162:25 74:1,19 76:19
117:2,3,21,24 218:23 177:19 166:20 169:12,15 78:6 79:9 80:22
121:1 129:8 beneficially 216:11 blue 157:24,25 173:13,22 174:4 82:15,16,17
149:12 263:25 benefit 267:4 158:4 167:3 174:13 177:11 105:12 128:16
Bayou 38:25 Benjamin 2:21 174:14 179:25 178:6 187:14,21 151:5 157:19
121:19 167:15 berm 53:4,5 68:21 201:11 251:1 190:5,23 191:1 159:16,24 192:11

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buffering 258:6 150:23 201:16 casual 133:10 249:3,22 261:11 change 16:15,15,22

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graft 42:20 63:3 70:18 79:14 112:2 134:5 124:23 274:23 220:16

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hours 270:4 132:5,8 immediately 84:5 impounded 208:4 150:21

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independent 79:4,7,11,12 80:3 instantaneous interpreting 57:22 266:22


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77:12 78:11 79:3 143:15 190:3 116:3 involve 13:1 42:15 59:11,19 60:25

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lasted 142:11 129:2,5,14,18,24 274:23 275:14 load 83:17 98:24 45:11 52:3 79:22
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222:24 252:13 169:25 174:24 164:12 189:5,15,18 190:1 174:8,13,13,16
253:5 256:13 240:14 248:13,15 manual 13:10,11 190:9 194:24 177:11 184:23
LORRI 3:13 248:19 251:20,24 13:15 14:9,17,23 195:8,8,10,11,13 187:14,14,15,21
loss 11:10 20:24 loved 195:8,8,11,11 152:10 196:16 197:13 187:24 188:15
30:19 45:17 80:22 195:13 map 11:21 83:5 219:22 221:25 190:5,5,23,23
82:22 127:2,3,5 low 124:7 111:8 163:24,24 225:4,6 226:5,9 191:1,1 192:13,24
160:25 161:1 lower 25:25 129:13 164:6 165:4,7 226:14,17,19,25 192:25,25 193:9
176:12 177:15 167:8 261:18 166:6 168:7,20,24 227:3 228:19 193:10,14,17,18
186:23,24 187:8 lump 165:24 174:6 175:14,18 229:5 230:20,25 195:12 206:6,14
187:16 188:8 lumpers 117:19 176:14 177:13 232:8 235:14 206:18 213:5,5,8
205:2,13,17,20 lunch 112:3 124:17 187:5,8 189:23 236:14 237:22,25 213:16 214:1
206:5,14,18,22 124:21,24 215:21 195:20 197:8,15 238:3,5 240:14 218:13,15 223:23
208:6 239:25 lying 167:8 197:16,17 198:1 243:14 244:23 230:4,5 232:1,8
259:4,9 260:6,13 199:7 200:15 246:7 250:8 253:1 234:11,15 236:10
260:23 261:1,22 M 201:4 225:2,9,13 258:21 259:9,14 237:9,24 238:19
261:25 262:3,4,6 M 1:10,12 4:1 6:1 226:22 228:20,24 March 8:9,12 9:19 239:25 240:23,25
262:13,17,23 279:3,11 234:11,15,17,18 9:20,23 242:12,13,13,14
263:5,12,23 264:4 MA 6:3 236:5,7 237:7 marginal 51:19 242:21,21,22,24
264:8,10,13,16,23 magazines 256:8 238:9 241:25 53:1 68:17 243:1,7,23 244:5
265:2,10,16 266:7 magnifying 200:16 242:4 245:4,24 mark 12:1 84:1 244:6 245:7,12
267:14,23,24 238:15 250:12 258:3 86:18 270:15 250:25 254:25
268:21 269:2 magnitude 142:8 mapped 138:25 marked 12:6 22:8 256:11 261:14,14
losses 73:19 145:8 mapping 79:14 68:21 82:5 83:9 261:18,19,22
lost 33:12,13,14 main 64:10 109:11 220:3,6,24 221:10 84:13 85:6 86:13 marshes 20:21
73:18 184:13,18 mainland 75:11 222:1 223:4,11 86:21 111:1,4 165:21,24 170:2
184:21 185:15,19 119:15 149:14 224:12 229:13 215:22,23 269:16 170:20 213:11,19
186:8,20 188:24 maintain 65:24 230:9,11 234:13 269:20 271:4 226:20 256:23

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marshmallow 152:11 157:1,2 256:9 migrate 64:24 207:15 208:2


102:2,3 169:6 172:22 member 23:24 65:10 211:3 216:1 219:3
Martin 7:24 178:6 182:18 70:22,23 migrating 65:10 225:22 228:7,14
Martinez 82:10,11 194:6 195:20 members 193:22 migration 56:7 232:9 235:5 245:5
mass 119:18 196:25 199:11,18 memorandum 11:6 64:10 65:18 259:25 260:4
Massachusetts 205:16 210:9,11 86:12,14 87:22 Mike 24:2 29:2,10 262:21 263:19
19:22 212:9 213:9,10 88:3,12 114:11 32:4 43:21,22 264:2 269:22
Master's 21:23 238:5 241:3 137:6 44:18 45:3 63:15 270:10,14,21
134:25 242:11,13 247:1 Menteur 194:3,9 69:22 70:3,21 271:1,7,22 272:2
match 225:9 247:15 257:15 195:24 71:5,17 79:12 272:8,14,19 273:6
matched 225:12 262:6,7 263:17 mention 151:20 88:13 90:13 273:13 274:10
229:16 265:19 266:9,21 171:6 132:22 138:15,19 275:7,17,24 276:5
material 13:3 266:25 267:10 mentioned 18:2,24 138:22 139:4,11 276:12
15:17 77:6 80:16 meander 197:1,2 22:16 29:2 39:11 139:25 140:18 million 50:17,17
87:6,11 99:18 248:13 45:23 55:19 56:1 152:17 153:1 51:3,6,7,12
100:18 101:2,4,6 meandering 212:15 58:13 69:17 82:20 203:13 274:8 249:11
104:10 114:24 meaning 53:15 90:1 107:10 119:1 Milanes 29:1 30:7 mind 77:22 98:3
115:22 118:12,13 140:18 259:20 143:18 145:20 30:12 44:18 102:10 229:9,9
119:24 120:14 means 17:20 63:23 154:24 171:9 111:24 154:21 mine 45:3 161:6
132:14 160:18 201:10 234:14 174:2 254:18 163:17,19 164:13 174:19
171:12 188:18 268:5 Meraux 249:1 171:2,5,13 175:13 Miner 24:2 29:2,10
209:14 210:6 meant 18:3 47:23 Mercier 212:6,12 191:3,16 232:24 30:12 32:4 43:21
217:18,25 218:8 148:14 202:6 212:19 233:14,21 263:11 43:22 44:18 45:3
218:24 233:11 214:9 220:2 221:5 mere 105:14 277:19 63:15 69:22 70:3
263:9 221:9 234:20 met 24:6 mile 50:15 158:7 70:21 71:6,17
materials 100:25 measure 180:7 Meteorological 179:5,16,21 79:13 88:13 90:13
118:1 126:18,24 183:3 257:14,16 15:24 miles 157:14 132:23 138:15,19
132:2 217:9 measured 61:22 meter 76:1 214:18 256:11 138:22 139:4
276:10 62:1 94:17 108:10 meters 17:19 50:17 Miller 2:18 4:5 6:7 153:1 203:13
maturity 15:8 130:3 180:4,5 50:18 51:3,6,12 6:9 12:9 14:2 274:8
maximum 99:13 185:10 234:6,6 15:9,14,21 22:11 minor 261:10
mean 10:25 15:4 measurement 75:5 methodologies 47:25 52:14 54:13 minus 232:13
17:24 18:8 21:8 183:22 225:11 229:20,23 55:2 70:2,7,15 minute 82:1 165:1
30:8 31:5 32:24 measurements methodology 71:4 74:15 79:20 165:2
33:13 34:4 47:19 62:5 163:12 191:17,21,23 81:7,19,24 82:8 minutes 106:7
89:23 91:19 93:4 178:13 181:25 219:23,25 221:7 83:11,25 84:17 missed 94:9
94:22 97:17 182:3 221:12,18 228:16 95:19,24 96:5,10 missing 220:19
100:19 102:3,18 measures 105:22 228:18,20,23 96:22 97:3 98:4 227:17
103:8 104:9,15,17 107:11,14,18 232:3 257:1,4 98:12 104:13 Mississippi 11:8
104:23 109:1,21 108:16 268:19 methods 113:8 105:7 107:21 66:8 83:17,19
110:14 111:24 mechanism 56:7 Mexico 49:25 68:8 110:21 124:15,22 84:15,20,22 85:16
119:16,18 121:9 medication 7:10 68:12 73:8 74:21 150:16 153:11 86:14 107:19
121:19 125:23 meet 102:19 145:25 118:8 119:16 154:7 161:10 112:11 114:14
126:22 129:16,17 meeting 133:7,8 144:18 254:18 168:2,6 170:8 146:23 147:9
130:6 133:5 134:19 microbes 20:10 176:11 179:11 154:11 156:16
137:18 140:16,20 meetings 93:5,6,11 mid 27:10 185:2 191:12 167:7 169:25
146:19,21 147:6 93:23 134:21 middle 210:9,24 196:13 198:2,9 195:25 238:17

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mixed 11:16 183:16 257:7 169:22 170:5,16 names 84:25 155:3 198:15
115:20 movement 21:4 170:21 172:6 Narragansett 16:6 218:13,15 268:21
mixture 115:17 49:9,23 50:1 173:9,11 174:9 narrow 39:8 Newscasts 256:8
mixup 48:1 73:12 76:10 176:15 177:2,20 national 229:2,6 NICK 3:9
model 136:9 101:19 110:4 181:4,16 182:24 natural 20:6 47:14 nine 51:7,11 165:17
255:14 143:21 240:22 183:4 184:18 56:6 73:1 117:7 165:20,22 232:6
modeled 149:17 movements 150:1 186:25 187:7 140:8,14,15,17 Ninth 23:8 104:18
modeler 106:10 moves 47:5 53:16 188:22 189:14 144:15 145:11 NOAA 24:16
modelers 107:5 53:17 56:3 68:14 190:19 192:6,9,23 146:8 150:7,19 nods 7:6 264:5
133:17 255:19 72:20,22,25 85:21 200:22 202:25 151:16 235:21 270:3
266:15 136:21 203:5,5 205:2,14 258:6 264:18 non 141:19
modeling 26:9 moving 46:6,7 60:7 205:20 206:22,25 naturally 17:25 normal 17:17
76:14,17 106:12 76:2,2,5 129:9 209:21 210:5 18:4 50:11 135:13 51:10 142:14
149:20,22 146:3 185:24 218:11,20 219:17 269:2 normally 60:6
models 255:23 240:25 254:13,17 219:24 220:2 nature 16:19 42:21 143:16
256:1,5 MRGO 1:7 8:20 221:7,7,20 227:6 43:16 62:19 159:3 north 48:20 72:22
moderate 75:20 9:1 10:24 13:6 229:12 231:2,3 navigation 44:7 146:15 194:2
246:19 23:5,13,16,20 236:1 238:23 near 54:10 185:7 northerly 146:3
modern 137:21 31:7,8 37:16 239:1,24 241:22 203:15 216:13,14 northern 144:14
moment 200:11 38:24 45:20 46:17 244:17 248:2 216:14 239:9 145:24
money 21:15 22:17 49:15 50:8,14,24 249:13,20 261:9 248:24 note 111:2 175:7
24:14,15 51:20,22 52:5,18 262:4,17,23 263:6 nearshore 139:1 206:5,12,14
Monitoring 78:4 53:18,23 54:12,17 263:14 264:4,5,10 necessarily 50:6 noted 99:1 109:11
Monographs 15:24 59:23 60:4,10 264:17,20 265:3,7 115:24 125:23 171:18 208:3
month 204:5 64:14 67:14,19 265:10,13,16,22 170:18 197:4 236:19 243:17
months 31:9 69:9 71:14 72:4,6 266:7,20,23 202:16 206:22 253:24 279:13,15
Morgan 2:5 73:5,22 74:1,2 267:13,18,20 212:22 233:14 notes 164:4,18
morphological 76:20 78:5 86:23 268:11,18,23 262:10,12 264:9 271:20
16:12 18:9 86:25 87:9,16,25 277:8 266:9 notice 5:7 11:25
morphology 89:3 92:25 97:16 mud 117:4,14 necessary 96:25 12:2
167:20 235:22 97:18,19 98:21 123:6,6,8,10,11 need 7:17,21 62:11 noticed 12:3 103:1
Morris 131:9 133:3 99:8,23 104:3,5 123:13,15,15,17 88:25 172:14 103:8 105:20
133:14 275:13 105:4,13,15,16 123:25 124:1 200:16 268:15 noticing 20:18
mosaic 165:8 199:7 107:23 108:1 multiple 189:25 needed 43:15,18 275:13
mosaics 165:6 109:11 111:19 muskrat 165:17 45:11,13,19 nourishes 60:6
mouth 100:1,3 115:10 125:1,4,5 171:11 232:5 nesting 219:5,10,11 nourishing 76:13
119:25 120:8 127:17 130:10 243:6 net 72:23 November 76:24
195:24 136:4,12,16,22 muskrats 165:18 never 34:21 53:25 NSF 20:2
move 51:11 68:9 138:3,4 140:22 myriad 101:1 54:3 73:13,17 nuances 127:25
73:17 100:3 144:5,6,10,20 140:1 168:12 number 21:5 28:19
101:23 123:23 145:19 146:10,12 N 268:23 274:19,21 55:16,20 59:7
143:22,24 172:21 147:18 150:3,17 N 4:1,1,1,7 5:1 274:22 79:2 81:15 85:3
moved 58:5,23 150:23 151:8 name 6:8 7:22 28:6 new 1:12 2:12 86:14 87:22 88:5
60:19 71:24 72:17 152:7 153:14 28:11 30:1 81:1 19:18 23:24 30:1 102:7 114:11
72:23 73:7 74:8 154:9 156:22 100:23 161:4 30:5 42:6,21 127:22 150:22
123:20 129:10 157:9 162:6,7,8 named 6:4 28:25 73:12 85:22 94:17 154:3,17,19,23
132:15 153:15 162:10 168:21,24 79:23 131:10 95:17 103:25 155:15,25 156:1,6

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162:24 175:7 96:23 101:23 51:10,17 53:25 169:1,6,18 171:1 34:13,22,24 82:15
224:20 226:20 200:9 203:24 56:2 57:15 58:5 172:3,7,19,22 116:8 165:11,13
232:13,19 233:22 267:17 275:1 72:17 73:13,16 173:23 174:7,12 190:13 199:19
233:24 245:7 276:7 139:3 174:25 175:13 205:25 220:25
253:2 255:22 occasion 135:6 oftentimes 197:14 176:4,23 177:12 223:15,16 248:20
260:17 271:9,12 occasionally 77:23 201:18 177:12 183:6,11 onshore 46:6 47:5
numbering 244:11 100:10 Oh 47:3 62:23 184:13,20 185:3 51:11,25 54:1
numbers 84:21,23 occupies 67:12 142:3 179:23 186:2,15,22 56:3 57:15 58:23
84:23 92:15 159:24 210:18 253:9 187:12 190:15 72:20 73:1 74:8
155:21 163:5,15 occupy 166:22 259:16 272:13 193:12 195:4 254:17
185:5 188:2,7 occur 17:15,25 okay 7:2,13 9:9,21 196:24 197:5,10 open 17:4 19:2
191:5 204:14,16 18:4,19 46:1 11:23,23 12:19 197:16,21 200:1 49:15 74:20
204:22 205:5,8 58:12 60:20 14:3 15:25 17:13 203:1,7,17 204:9 100:10 102:1
222:5 249:21 135:12 143:4 22:12,15 27:13 205:10 207:18 113:5 116:19
nutrient 19:24 20:6 248:1,5 255:7 28:9,17 30:3,7 208:3,9 210:18 146:15 150:23
20:7 269:3 31:11 32:23 33:3 211:19 212:13,13 186:4 208:6
nutrients 19:23 occurred 8:22 35:21 36:5,14 212:21 214:16,20 213:22
n't 133:9 45:14 47:13 55:11 38:2,14 49:17 216:6 221:2,12 opened 184:23
59:22 60:10 61:3 58:1 62:4 63:19 222:7 223:2,10,22 opening 67:10,12
O 91:9 105:18 67:13 69:23 70:23 224:16,21 226:7 101:24,24 105:10
o 4:1 5:1 205:14 115:11 132:13 71:12 78:3,3 227:9 228:12 186:13 261:9
oak 248:9,22 134:8 137:2,4 79:21 80:7 81:3,6 230:13 232:22 operating 104:5
oaks 248:16,19 141:23 142:1,3,18 81:20,25 82:9 233:4,7,20 235:6 operation 26:13
oath 5:25 6:6,19 149:12 153:21 83:2 84:1 85:3,5 238:18 244:1,8,24 operative 101:5
Object 70:1,6 176:20 178:3 86:10 87:21 92:16 245:6,15,25 152:4
105:2 107:17 193:25 258:11,12 95:1 97:4 105:8 249:12,21 250:17 opinion 46:25
135:10 145:15 258:13,14 265:10 106:6,15 107:8 251:10,16,23 56:11 61:9 64:8
184:25 196:11 occurrence 60:23 110:22 112:1,23 252:3,9,13,13,25 64:18 66:10,25
211:2 213:2 64:20 115:23 116:9 253:9 258:17,25 69:2 71:22 72:6
231:24 245:3 occurring 19:13,14 117:20 118:20,21 259:3,11 260:5,16 104:20 110:16
266:12 56:20 146:8 118:24 120:10 263:22 264:3,7 131:25 141:25
objection 71:3 occurs 71:9 76:10 122:7,23 123:3,10 265:14 266:22 142:5 145:9
154:6 132:1 141:9,18 123:25 124:2,2,16 268:1 270:15 151:23 155:25
objections 5:11 149:9 125:18,23 126:1,7 271:6 274:9 275:8 156:5 171:3
70:11,13 ocean 75:9 126:13 128:16 276:6,13 278:1,9 193:12 196:7,21
observing 38:17 oceanography 131:10,20 132:17 old 11:16 85:23 197:5 239:12
obtain 63:7 77:11 135:1 136:24 137:12,19 121:24 154:24 258:9 266:6
79:4 88:11 180:14 oceans 66:14 138:10,21 139:23 167:14 opinions 68:3
obtained 22:18 offered 106:4 140:2 147:10,16 older 165:5,10 83:21 90:25 92:18
71:19 79:7,12 277:24 148:6,24 149:3,15 199:2 94:1 127:12
127:16 164:25 offering 145:9 150:3 154:18 once 43:3 73:9 74:6 153:25 155:16
217:2 233:8 offers 244:24 155:22 156:4,13 108:15 117:4,21 269:5 277:1,23
obtaining 94:19 office 42:5 195:10 157:13 158:6,11 134:17 143:10 278:3
obvious 48:1 273:20 159:1,11 160:1,20 156:8 195:12 opportunity 33:17
obviously 10:20 Offices 1:11 161:11,14,23 244:6 248:12 231:10 265:24
18:19 54:17 63:11 officiated 5:24 162:16 163:16 261:4 opposed 69:11
65:12 86:1 91:19 offshore 21:4 46:4 167:10 168:16 ones 33:21 34:10 208:18 247:11

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oral 7:5 171:21 172:2 265:15 267:5 participation 93:5 26:18 28:3,19
orange 176:6 226:22 232:2,5 268:6 275:23 particular 10:14 29:1 57:18 88:20
orbitals 143:20,22 O'Neill's 225:2 paged 87:23 199:21 20:4,16 35:3 127:1 195:6
143:25 pages 82:19,24 46:13 59:20 61:2 199:13 202:15
order 21:18 189:9 P 83:7 84:2 114:5 61:22 66:16,21 Penland's 42:10
189:23 P 5:1 119:7 125:19 82:23 116:24 Penn 134:12
organic 115:22 pad 11:19 80:2 180:15 194:25 139:10 148:23,25 penultimate 49:1
120:14 111:2 227:17 149:6 155:11 people 20:1 21:20
organization 42:17 page 4:3,9 15:20 panel 220:14 164:22 166:12 28:25 29:3 30:12
original 5:9 45:6 27:3 49:6,7 53:4 paper 11:19 15:21 169:2 179:7 53:12 93:10
87:10,25 97:20 59:6,15 68:23 42:19 80:2 194:13 209:2 108:23 117:18
98:17 105:16 70:17 77:20 78:10 paragraph 200:20 214:13 220:17 130:22 134:20
113:2,21,22 79:5 83:12 85:6 204:19 235:11 234:17,18 235:22 171:17,20 197:12
115:25 156:24 86:3 92:15 99:4,5 241:13,15 245:16 239:7 242:10 203:25 217:9
157:1 159:13 110:25 112:6,20 252:19 253:15,17 particularly 48:13 244:4 246:1,8
160:11,11,21 121:3 122:1 255:21 265:20 74:21 91:10 214:6 249:18 257:3,18
171:21 179:1 124:25 125:3,5 paragraphs 204:23 245:12 257:20 276:11
184:2,4,6 233:19 127:18 128:7 parameters 26:10 parties 5:3 42:8 percent 54:2 118:1
237:7 135:22,25 144:12 60:16,23 76:7 280:14 118:6 234:12
originally 13:24 153:23 155:24 103:12 129:20 parts 92:12,14 249:23
184:8 157:23 162:16 131:8 139:15 143:6 172:8 percentage 120:13
Orleans 1:12 2:12 168:1 179:7,17,24 254:6,9,11 passageways 232:13
23:24 30:5 146:22 179:25 180:12 parcels 143:21 195:21 percentages 117:25
147:8 175:23 182:14 197:18 Paris 99:20 208:25 passed 28:3 performed 259:3
194:7 198:16 198:11 199:12 239:10 passing 28:22 period 46:4 74:11
outer 47:7 200:14,19,20 Parish 23:9 104:18 patches 109:22 102:14,23 140:22
Outlet 86:15 201:9 202:9 203:9 part 5:14 28:16 pathway 49:15 141:5 142:11,13
112:11 114:15 204:13,20 205:2 30:4 32:6 45:5 50:13 51:21 84:19 187:7 189:25
156:16 205:24 206:9 46:18 47:14 57:9 117:12 144:17 193:23,25 226:16
outline 43:13 49:10 208:9 209:20,24 62:25 65:5 78:20 145:7 149:23 periodically 113:7
189:1 210:16 214:20 78:22 80:14 86:7 150:25 264:5 periods 102:17
outlining 62:15 215:14,17 216:3,5 114:13 119:6 pathways 157:3 134:11 187:6
outset 79:18 216:23,25 217:16 126:19 135:19 pattern 99:19,21 225:5 230:21
outside 139:11 217:19 219:4,21 136:25 138:12,14 patterns 143:23,24 231:1 243:19
overall 64:6 86:9 221:21 222:24 139:4 144:14,16 236:13 238:8 peripheral 75:18
overlaid 189:13 223:7 224:17,17 148:11,12,16,19 Paul 131:9 133:7 peripherally 39:7
overlay 189:9 224:20 235:11 157:15 175:5 133:12,19 77:7
269:10 236:2,3 237:21 178:15 184:18 PAVLICK 3:7 permanent 81:16
oversaw 44:22 241:4,13 242:23 185:13 194:15 paying 34:17 permitted 5:5
overseer 44:22 244:8,12 245:6,16 201:5 203:11,12 pebbles 123:23 persist 267:15
overtopping 246:14 247:24 220:14 229:6 peer 278:6 person 9:8 31:24
277:13 248:1,8 249:6 233:18 242:24 pelicans 219:5,16 71:6 80:24,25
overtops 117:6 250:1,5,16 252:4 246:24 260:25 pending 6:12 7:20 134:3 243:11,14
overwash 17:1 252:14,19 253:4 275:2 penetrating 40:2 personnel 257:22
overwashing 60:20 253:14 254:4 parted 141:15 Penland 8:9,15 perspective 31:10
ownership 39:20 258:2,3,17 259:13 PARTICIPATING 9:17 12:24 14:24 pertains 1:7 8:20
O'Neill 171:10,19 260:16 262:17,22 3:6 22:24 23:11 25:20 phase 55:8 85:24

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phenomenon 146:7 phragmites 236:25 92:8 106:12 107:1 pole 113:20 269:13
phone 9:6 93:14 237:17 255:3 107:6 127:23 polygons 155:6 precipitation
photo 62:16 212:10 261:16 128:12 131:1 189:16 228:22 193:24 194:10
photocopy 80:9 physical 18:10 271:25 272:16 pond 157:11 precludes 239:18
photograph 35:10 74:18 185:25 275:3 178:15 183:2,3,9 preconstruction
37:15,21,23 186:5 202:24 plan 83:19 107:19 184:21,23 185:10 244:21
179:18 180:22 Ph.D 1:11 6:1 24:1 114:22 115:1 185:13 predecessor 13:11
181:5 203:11,22 24:3 134:24 279:3 232:4 ponds 157:5,22 14:4
206:7,19 208:10 279:11 planned 86:23,25 159:3,7 178:10 predominantly
208:12,17,20,22 Ph.D.s 21:22 202:6 181:3,15 183:23 122:20
209:3,19,25 210:5 picky 165:19 planning 14:1 184:4,6 186:13,16 preexisted 72:3
210:9,19,23 211:4 pictorial 202:24 115:5 Pontchartrain 24:8 73:25
211:10,20,22 pictorially 136:10 plans 11:5 24:11,13,19 25:9 preexisting 71:23
212:1,24,24 picture 31:8 53:2 plant 29:18 241:7 29:23 30:3 61:18 72:11 73:24,25
213:17 219:13 241:15 245:7,13 70:18 88:8 144:19 178:10,15 183:23
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214:23 plaintiffs 2:1 8:4 points 61:6,14 63:7 pre 130:18 181:10 pressure 101:25

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69:3 87:16 209:16 98:8 units 169:4,6,16 U.S 13:25 113:23 vicinity 88:8

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39:9 51:25 67:20 185:15 weight 110:4 129:6 261:11 262:7,8 190:18,20 191:23

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192:1 212:23 107:4,7 122:19 201:18 203:13 195:1 196:21 1700s 238:9
213:14 214:11 135:5,19 138:23 205:7,13,17 221:1 18 71:15 174:25
widens 178:21 148:24 171:5 209:22 210:16 1,095,073 249:7 175:20 189:3
183:2 217:11 256:19 215:16,25 216:4 1,313 252:19,23 180 76:4
wider 103:10,19 269:24 277:16 216:18 221:22 253:2,12 1800s 258:14
105:15,25 176:21 worked 16:4 24:4 224:25,25 227:21 1,692 267:14 1835 179:19 185:7
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width 87:18 103:15 working 16:1 21:7 257:9 260:14 88:5 114:11 199:3
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widths 197:3 works 54:8 118:14 182:10 204:5 1.2 196:15 198:18 199:6
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winds 141:12 229:20 276:2,9 57:9,10,12,21 10 4:19 54:2 271:2 258:15
wind's 109:23 Wow 179:5 59:8 61:22 62:2 271:4 1906s 241:24
wind-generated write 202:12,17 66:2 79:10 111:2210,200 224:5 1916 59:18,25
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words 104:10 13,453 223:25 188:19 189:19
233:16 Y 0 13,490 223:24 193:13 223:2
wordsmith 12:23 Y 85:8 02215 6:4 1320 108:16 177:5 225:12 231:19
wordsmithing Ycloskey 240:15 05-4182 1:5 15 71:15 164:14 234:8 237:25
10:12 26:19 yeah 10:2 15:21 06-2268 1:8 15th 9:18 10:5,10 238:20 244:13,15
work 12:25 14:25 26:20 49:5,5 78:3 08 275:15 12:25 88:19 245:4 253:6
21:17,24 23:19 81:12 83:14 85:13 15-minute 199:6 1951 61:14
93:6 98:2 114:20 1
24:10 25:15 26:17 16 189:3 224:11 1954 13:25
148:21 161:25 1 4:10 12:1,6 75:21
32:6 39:6 42:5 17 136:15 189:3 1955 225:12,13,16
165:9 168:12 130:12 154:8
44:11,22,23 52:7 17-foot 101:9,16 1956 224:23 225:6
181:18 186:17 156:1,6 174:10
54:9 106:9,11 104:11 129:5 225:14,16 226:3

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1957 15:22 164:7 200:13 202:17,19 2000 187:7 247:2,6 249:8 32 226:14
165:3 225:8 224:19,19,20,21 2000s 188:20 263:9,24 3367.7 154:11
1958 11:6 59:22 225:15 189:20 190:4 215 4:17 3368 156:1 158:23
60:2 61:6 86:16 2-1 201:9 202:9 231:20 234:9 22 4:11 103:7 177:4 158:24 172:15
86:17 113:24 2-10 180:15 241:5,6 182:10 35,634 205:21
114:10 122:5 2-13 179:17,24 2001 76:24 161:2 2245 267:16 268:9 36 99:8
125:2,6 263:14 180:12,15 182:14 186:9,24 187:2 23 158:7 38 149:10
1959 14:12 210:1 2-2 157:23 200:14 188:6 217:16 2674 156:6 159:5
210:11 211:20 2-3 168:3 225:7 226:15 172:11 173:21 4
212:1,14 213:6 2-4 203:9 204:14,20 2002 130:17 217:6 269 4:18 4 4:13 56:23,24
1960 193:15 208:12 205:2 225:8 27 11:4 88:23 63:22 64:1 83:8,9
208:13,22 243:20 2-5 205:24 206:9 2003 24:22 40:11 27th 89:14 86:13 109:15
1960s 89:8 188:19 275:23 2004 24:23 25:4 271 4:19 190:7 250:4
189:19 190:4 2-6 208:9 37:11 40:11 59:10 2733 159:12 172:15 4-1 219:21 221:21
211:20 214:24 2-7 209:24 210:16 20044 2:22 275 4:20 268:7
215:2,3 231:20 2-8 214:21,22 2005 25:3,4 37:12 276 4:6 4-10 249:6
236:24 241:5,25 215:14 55:21 78:21 4-11 223:9 224:17
242:23 253:6 2-9 215:17 130:17,18 177:19 3 250:1,16,17
1961 215:5 2.1 156:2,4,14 179:19 180:25,25 3 4:12 59:18 69:24 4-13 252:4
1962 225:8 158:3,11 159:6,13 181:4 187:1,2 80:6 81:25 82:5 4-17 252:14 253:4
1963 256:15 160:9 162:22 188:6 189:2,4 154:17 190:7 4-18 252:15,19
1965 125:2,6 186:8 163:13 167:23 269:10,12 3-1 70:17 253:4,14
186:23 256:14 168:8,18 169:13 2005-2006 180:23 3-10 59:6 79:6 4-19 250:5
1968 61:3 172:2 172:4 177:16 2006 78:21 164:7 3-11 59:15 4-2 173:4 235:11
226:22 183:25 185:14 260:10,15 3-12 219:4 237:21 241:4,13
1969 61:6 215:5,6 186:23 188:2 2007 9:19,20 10:3,5 3-2 78:10 244:8,12
225:8 189:11 191:5,20 10:10 12:23,25 3-3 77:2 216:5,6 4-20 254:4 258:3,18
1974 225:6 200:10 204:13,15 13:1 26:19 27:10 3-4 68:23 216:3,7 4-21 236:3 258:2
1975 11:9 204:24 205:16 27:12 88:19 216:25 4-3 162:17
1978 224:23 226:3 2.10 209:24 211:25 2008 8:12 9:20 3-5 79:5 4-6 245:6,16
1979 63:22 64:2 212:21 213:17 26:25 27:14 28:3 3-6 79:5 4-8 246:14 247:24
1985 64:2 214:14 28:11 32:12 36:22 3-9 59:15 79:6 4-9 248:8
1990 224:23 226:3 2.15 189:3 38:18 42:24 91:1 3.0 70:4 4.1 222:2 224:17
226:15 2.16 183:7 185:4 91:13,14,23 94:12 3.1 49:6 77:12 78:5 249:9 250:11,23
1990s 220:7 2.17 183:7 185:4 126:5,8 130:1 78:10 251:17 268:6
1994 225:8 2.18 180:12 183:7 137:22 153:1 3.2 49:7 63:23 4.1.1 244:9,13
1997 225:4 185:4,9 205:25 208:21 68:22 216:3,17,20 4.2 80:6 163:8,10
1999 10:25 221:8 2.3 155:24 157:24 210:12 212:12,13 217:3,5 163:20,23 164:3
221:13 222:10 158:6,14 200:14 213:9,17 222:23 3.4 53:4 164:16 165:3,8
224:18,21 226:2 200:20 201:4,21 253:17 269:18 3.9 61:6,13 62:21 168:8,19 169:7
227:5 228:17 2.6 206:12 207:12 272:1 62:22 63:8 70:17 170:10,17 171:4
229:11,24 2.7 210:13,15 2009 1:13 11:4 70:24 249:23 175:7 176:19
256:11 88:24 89:14 30th 12:3 193:13 242:16
2 2.8 208:11 209:4 279:25 307 86:3 244:9,19,20,24
2 4:11 22:5,8 50:14 2.9 209:25 210:10 202-616-4289 2:23 308 85:6 174:20 250:13,20,25
130:7 139:21,22 210:17 2050 220:3,5,9,21 31 179:5,16,21 251:17 252:4
154:8 175:7 200:8 20 118:6 221:3,10 229:12 267:16,21 268:24 4.3 171:4 192:4

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252:7,9 148:11,16 8.2 78:3


4.4 171:4 190:8 6-11 144:12 82 4:12
192:5 252:10 6-14 135:22 827 184:15,15
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257:5 119:7 121:3 122:2 83 4:13 226:15
4.8 236:3 237:7,13 135:25 84 4:14
258:2,9 6-9 112:20 114:5 855 1:12
40 99:7,14 101:22 119:7 86 4:15
167:2 223:20 6.1 112:6,9 114:1 888 2:20
40-year 102:23 115:16 124:4 89 63:21 64:4
4004 224:10 6.2 99:4 112:6 8928 159:19,25
4020 224:9 6.3 99:5
416 2:11 6.4 146:14 9
42,602 249:22 6.5 50:15 9 4:18 269:17,20
43 224:2 6.6 137:21 139:7 9,629 224:5
47 59:24 140:7 9/11/2008 125:20
4800 186:19 60 14:13 985-384-8611 2:6
60s 234:8 99 88:21
5 61 14:13
5 4:14 61:4 84:3,13 65 161:2 188:5
112:9 122:25 650 97:20 98:18
234:12 259:8 108:15
260:6 675 6:3
5-1 260:17 68 225:3
5-3 259:13 694 159:6
5-7 262:17,22
265:15 7
5-8 267:5 7 4:16 27:5 111:1,4
5.1 83:4 260:9,17 148:12,19 151:15
5.2 83:4 260:9 7th 272:1
264:7,13 7-1 27:3
5.3 83:4 260:9 70 224:6
5.4 83:4 260:9 70113 1:13
5.6 267:25 70130 2:12
504-586-0000 2:13 70380 2:5
51 63:11 74 226:14
53 226:14 78 63:21 64:4
54 14:19
558 251:18,23 8
56 226:14 8 4:17 215:22,23
560 224:6 216:21,23 217:6
5628 186:9 218:5
58 225:6 226:14 8-point 78:1
8-1 13:23
6 8-2 77:20 78:2
6 4:5,15 50:15 217:16,19
86:18,21 114:13 8.1 13:23

JOHNS PENDLETON COURT REPORTERS 800 562-1285