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Having looked at your threads against the Shia, it came to my attention that I should enquire about the verse of Imamah (2:124) and see what your thoughts are regarding it... Please allow me to take this discussion, step by step, for I do not want to rush things but rather share and learn, thank you. Can I ask what is your view on the concept of Imamah as shown in this verse: And (remember) when the Lord of Ibrahim tried him with (certain) Commands, which he fulfilled. He (Allah) said (to him), "Verily, I am going to make you an Imam (a Leader) for mankind (to follow you)." [Ibrahim (as) said, "And of my offspring?" (Allah) said, "My Covenant includes not the unjust" Thank you. (Other Muslims, please leave this discussion between me and him - thanks)
Like · · Unfollow Post · Share · June 2 at 8:32pm via mobile
Abu Jaiyana Wa Alaikumusalam Brother Welcome to our debate forum! Ladies and Gents, let us grant the request of our Shii guest that this discussion is exclusive for both of us. Any post from other forum members will be deleted and will be given a warning for ban...See More
June 2 at 9:01pm via mobile · Like · 2
Hijab Khan Thank you Abu Jaiyana
June 2 at 9:06pm via mobile · Like · 1
Hijab Khan Please allow me to give you a quick break down of this verse so that we can start our discussion after your break down... My faith upon this verse is that, the Imamah is also a divine post like the Prophethood and both
were necessary for the fulfilment of Allah's objective, one without the other cannot meet the demand of Allah's aim... This Imamah continued till it reached Prophet Muhammad (P) and then was transferred over to the 12 Imams after him, Imam Mahdi (as) being the last of the twelve. We will discuss other relevant verses related to this verse too and will give you an update of how we understand these verses together... Thank you.
June 2 at 9:14pm via mobile · Like
Abu Jaiyana Hijab Khan, Thank you for your question. I have read that ayah many times but I dont see the shia doctrine of Imamah in it. I also consulted several renown books of tafseer but none of them ever mentioned that this ayah is a textual proof for the shia doctrine of Imamah. If you think otherwise then give us your evidence/s from the Quran itself because I understand that the doctrine of Imamah is one of the foundations of Shia faith (usool ud-deen) therefore it must be very clear and explicit from the Quran just like the 6 articles of Faith and the 5 Pillars of Islam taught by the Ahlus Sunnah. Please define for us first your Doctrine of Imamah as defined by your classical scholars and then explain how surah 2:124 is a proof for it. Thank you.
June 2 at 9:20pm via mobile · Edited · Like · 2
Hijab Khan Bro, I think I gave you a break down of the verse while you were writing... Give me your understanding of the verse too and then we can share our thoughts and see where we agree and disagree
June 2 at 9:20pm via mobile · Like
Hijab Khan And keep it short please
June 2 at 9:26pm via mobile · Like
Abu Jaiyana Okay thanks. For us Ahlus Sunnah, we dont interpret the Quran as we wish. There important things that must be considered: 1- every ayah must be understood according to its clear and plain context. 2- the best interpreter of the quran is none other than the quran itself (intercontextual approach). 3- in case the quran doesnt provide the details of its subject, authentic hadith must be consulted. Having said that and apply those principles to the ayah, my understanding is that it talks about Allah's plan about Prophet Ibrahim, that is to make him a leader for people to be followed which implies that the religion of Prophet Ibrahim (hanif or monoyheism) will go on even after his death. His religion was continued by his children with Hajar and Sarah. They were made leaders by Allah through Nubuwah and Risalah. Their being leaders doesnt in any way shape or form mean that they have a separate rank or position aside from being Prophets or Messengers of Allah. Being a leader or imam is an inherent part of being a Prophet or a Rasul. The gift of nubuwah and risalah given by Allah to Prophet Ibrahim end with the seal of the Prophet (Muhammad s.a.w.) Summary: 1. Being a leader is an inherent part lf being a nabi or a rasul, not a separate rank or position. 2. Prophet Ibrahim was never called as Imam anywhere in the Qurab 3. The leadership given by Allah to Prophet Ibrahim and his progeny is no other than nubuwah and risalah 4. The gift of Nubuwah and Risalah to the progeny of Prophet Ibrahim ended with Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. Thank you.
June 2 at 10:03pm via mobile · Like · 3
You raised certain questions. The leadership given by Allah to Prophet Ibrahim and his progeny is no other than nubuwah and risalah" This is exactly what it BOILS DOWN TO when we discuss with the Sunni's. the same meaning which is implied by the Salafi scholars that the Imamah granted to Ibrahim (as) was no other than Prophethood itself and yes.. had a visitor with me. Thanks June 2 at 10:27pm via mobile · Like · 2 Hijab Khan Sorry for the delay bro. Thats why you need to give us the classical definition of Imamah in shiaism for us to see whether the ayah talks about Imamah or other things such as nubuwah and risalah. Let me help you see the false view that you have carried from certain scholars or the Tafsirs that you have read..Abu Jaiyana By the way.. I was expecting from your answer. that needs to be debated first. when the tests and the trials were placed before him to fulfil PRIOR to attaining the station of his Leadership? And did Allah test a Prophet to grant him the same Prophethood AFTER he passed his tests? See how absurd this belief gets? It's like testing an assistant manager to grant him the same post again INSTEAD of a Manager's post! (Positions are given in the ascending order) ... How can the Imamah which was granted to Ibrahim (as) be NO OTHER then the prophethood itself... you made the same "bold" claim: " 3. So dont assume that it is indeed a verse of Imamah. but I feel once we move down into our discussion all major questions will be answered automatically. Thank you for the reply... please let us take this step by step as I suggested before and soon you will see what Imamah means to the Shia based upon the light of the Holy Quran. however the reason why this concept is not clear to them is because they give it an interpretation that "cannot" be qualified by Islam.. I dont agree that ayah 124 of surah 2 is an ayah of Imamah.
what was it that the Imamah contained which was lacking in Prophethood? Otherwise there was no need to test someone to give him another role if the person was already running the show in his initial role.. and then explain how 2:124 a proof for it. You havent presented your case and have not presented any evidence from the quran how that ayah a proof for your Imamah doctrine. With all due respect. 3. Dont cut the foot to fit the shoe. The point is.. your response is the one that is absolutely absurd because: 1.. present your case by giving us the complete picture of your imamah doctrine as defined by your scholars. Absurd... that's an absurd thing to do... 2. That is not how a systematic discussion is done. If you happen to change your mind then please inform me. The right thing to do is you cut the shoe to fit the foot. Your objection is not based on any evidence from the quran but merely from your own shia bias to the subject that is why you got upset and you made an early rebuttal to my presentation instead of presenting your case first. Thank you. June 3 at 5:21am via mobile · Like · 1 . You became upset after you read my response which doest agree with your doctrine. June 3 at 12:01am via mobile · Like Abu Jaiyana I dont think that my understanding of the verse is absurd because as I said I follow certain principles in interpreting the quran and i could present my evidences for that. yet you already criticized my presentation. I hope I made myself clear..People are usually tested in order to QUALIFY for something other than which they have NOT attained yet but the poor Prophet was tested to qualify for the same role.
Fifth rebattals 8.AbuJaiyana Format of the discussion: 1.. Fourth rebuttals 7. First rebuttals: Hijab Khan then AbuJaiyana 4.Hijab Khan Representing Ahlus-Sunnah . Presentation of arguments and evidences by Hijab Khan 2. Presentation of Arguments and evidence by Abu Jaiyana 3. Conclusions ---------------------Follow the format properly step by step as you suggested. the difference is that we are discussing at a slower pace and I did say that we will discuss other related verses to the matter too. then I will leave this discussion open for all members here. We will follow a clear format and a clear topic of this discussion: Topic: Surah 2. Salam June 3 at 5:47am via mobile · Like · 1 Hijab Khan Wa Alaikum salaam Thank you for your reply. Third rebuttals 6. ayah 124 is a textual proof from the quran for the shia doctrine of Imamah Representing Shiaism . Bro we have not fallen outside the systematic format that you are talking about. Second rebuttals 5.Abu Jaiyana Let's get systematic here. . I dont like jumping here and there in discussions.. If you dont want to follow the format.
. so how would you . i merely presented my understanding of the ayah in a nutshell and the principles i followed why i arrived to that conclusion. The format i suggested is to provide a clear picture of the discussion and the systematic way of presenting our arguments and counter arguments .. June 3 at 6:40am via mobile · Like Abu Jaiyana I dont understand why you dont want to follow a systematic format in discussing your issue... but you are debating with me.. So you see it's the same method but in a limited version. we can then move on. You are trying to manipulate the progress of the discussion thats why you dont want to follow a specific format... So please answer the questions I have raised in criticising your understanding of the verse. I have my reasons for not debating at the moment.... Once my investigation is over regarding your view then you can cross examine my view and i'll defend it by the light of the legal sources of Islam. It is not what what or how you consider a discussion. Your cross examination to my introduction is so premature because just like what you did.. I hope you will bear with me.. Thank you very much. Once we have established whether the Imamah is different from Prophethood or not.. Then I took the initiative to cross examine your views of the verse and when having completed my task I would have expected the same from you. but it is what you would do in the discussion. You said that you dnt want a debate.i just dont understand why you dont want to have a systematic way of presenting arguments. Good night bed time. Your format suggests a debate and I made it clear that I want to discuss the verse with you step by step.I gave you my view of the Imamah in a nutshell and so did you. a debate or a sharing.. Yes my explanation of the verse was not comprehensive but I do have the intent to open up as we move along with the discussion. I have not yet presented my evidences.....
. if you really believe that your doctrine of Imamah is supported by this ayah then there is no need to hide it. Truth stands clear from faksehood right? If you dont want to present the full picture of your doctrine. Example: Once you have proven that Imamah here is actually Prophethood (as you admitted) then there will be no use in continuing with the rest of our discussion/beliefs because everything else (for us) is BASED upon the issue of Imamah being a divine POST separate from prophethood. i can present it for you with refs from your scholars. Dont be so defensive.. why is that? How would you logically conclude that the ayah fits in with your concept when you dont want to present the full picture of your doctrine in the first place? I can only make a logical questions for you when you have presented the full picture/definition of your Imamah doctrine So dont insult our intellegence here. June 3 at 7:26am via mobile · Like · 2 Hijab Khan Bro why are you bent upon knowing the full picture of the Imamah while what I gave you in the nutshell covers the main basis of the Imamah? Bro. so dont just cherry-pick what you would present just to make the ayah fit in.. You should cut the shoe to fit the foot. you cant cut the foot to fit the shoe.. Thanks.. The format your are suggesting would cover a lot of things and we do not need to go into all that since this point (whether IMAMAH is prophethood or not) will CLOSE the door to the rest anyway so I'd rather not waste time. I know your doctrine my friend. all I want to do is to establish whether the Imamah exists APART from prophethood or NOT and to clarify this what BOTH of us gave (in a nutshell) was sufficient to begin with.categorically make a valid question about it? I also noticed that you dont want to present the full picture of your imamah doctrine. As i said. Lets follow a clear format otherwise your one on one discussion request will lead to nowhere.. you cant hide it from me. I know what your doctrine is. So what's you problem in discussing the BASE only??? It's easy! It short! And it's hot! .
. when the tests and the trials were placed before him to fulfil PRIOR to attaining the station of his Leadership? And did Allah test a Prophet to grant him the same Prophethood AFTER he passed his tests? See how absurd this belief gets? It's like testing an assistant manager to grant him the same post again INSTEAD of a Manager's post! (Positions are given in the ascending order) People are usually tested in order to QUALIFY for something other than which they have NOT attained yet but the poor Prophet was tested to qualify for the same role. It's aim is to DEFEAT only while the aim in a discussion is to reach a conclusion without the intent of winning or losing and mainly for the purpose of sharing and learning.. you provided a view based upon whatever evidences you have seen but what is unfortunate is that since your view itself is lame and absurd (since it contradicts the very light of the ayah in discussion) this is enough to tell me that the evidences you are talking about (verses of the Quran) have been misinterpreted.. As for your concern about the debate and the discussion issue.. You stated that you have not provided any evidences for your "view" so how can I present a valid questions regarding it? Bro. I believe I have put you into a very awkward position (and you have felt it) by raising some very fundament questions against your "view" of the Imamah which diametrically goes against the Quran it self and if you believe that it is not the case as I think then please be a man and answer what was requested and don't find ways of prolonging our discussion for which there is NO specific need for.. finish me off by proving to me that the Imamah of Ibrahim (as) was no other than Prophethood itself. (Pls ponder over it) So in this sense your evidences don't really matter to me (and are open to interpretation) unless you can REMOVE the contradictions and the absurdity from your view that the Imamah is NO OTHER THAN PROPHETHOOD by responding to what I raised and I repeat my concerns again for you: ". let me clarify it for you.. So please bro. . I am not interested in a long debate...You know what. Otherwise how can one have a valid interpretation of the verses of the Holy Quran and YET hold an ABSURD and an INCORRECT view based upon such a valid interpretation??? I hope you get my point..How can the Imamah which was granted to Ibrahim (as) be NO OTHER then the prophethood itself. Debate is argumentative and seeks to be victorious....
. However.. In short. Thats totally absurd and baseless and i have all the refutations against it. that is based from a hadith from usul al kafi vol. I know and have read many times the line of your argument many times and I know how weak it is. Have a good time scratching you head..230 narrated by zayd ash-shahham falsely attributed to Jafar as-Sadiq of course. your hiding of your doctrine of Imamah will be treated here as an indirect admission on your part that you know full well that this verse doesnt support your imamah doctrine but you only want to win cheap points from me. Good luck! June 3 at 6:38pm via mobile · Like Abu Jaiyana Whether Prophethood is meant in the ayah or not is not a big deal for me or for the 90% of sunni Mulims around the world because it can be proven from many other ayat in the quran. I hope to will not mind me saying anything unintentionally wrong and will pardon me for my faults.Absurd. June 3 at 6:29pm via mobile · Like Hijab Khan Come on bro..1 p. i also want to show to all the members of this forum that the shia claim that this verse supports their doctrine of Imamah is false and baseless. The burden of proof is upon the shia that this ayah is actually talking about their doctrine of Imamah because 90% of the Mulims doesnt believe the doctrine of Imamah of the shia so if you dont want to present your case by hiding the full picture of your imamah doctrine because it surely doesnt fit the ayah then you failed in your attempt in proving your doctrine to be rooted in the quran... explain to me logically how could Allah TEST a Prophet with so many trials only to give him what he already had (Prophethood) then bring your evidences to support your logic.. These are some the things which you want to hide: .
you dont want to talk about them. That it is impossible for there to be a time without an imam appointed by Allah (by Allamah Muzaffar) . you know that the ayah in discussion is my proof for the Imamah since is it clear from it: .260 you want to hide all those stuff.. or accept and admit that your doctrine of Imamah is nowhere to be found in the Quran the choice is yours June 3 at 8:46pm via mobile · Like Hijab Khan Bro and there is a lot more that could be added to the list and that is why I don't want to open up a can of worms and prolong the issue but rather stick to the basis. You keep talking about my evidence. the rest of the things that you have provided will become clearer and mind you it's not how you have seen some of the things on the list. The imams possess all the knowledge past present and future and nothing is hidden from them as reported by Al Kulayni in his al kafi vol. It is possible to have a specific period in time without a nabi. Once we have established this matter.... The earth cant exist without an imam by Al Kulayni 4. right? I wasnt born yesterday my friend June 3 at 8:39pm via mobile · Like Abu Jaiyana It is either you will present your case and prove it by solid evidences if there is any. I am trying to attack your BASE and would like you to do the same by proving to me that the Imamah is not Imamah but prophethood instead.1.. while it is impossible to have a specific time without an imam (by Al Hilli) 3... You have been trying to avoid my questions and it is becoming more clearer as to why you do not even attempt to because as I stated earlier.this aqeda wouldnt fit the ayah 2.. all you need is score cheap points from me. It's fair.1p. you just can't prove that the Imamah mentioned in the given verse is prophethood.
And yet you don't find the TESTING of a Prophet to gain Prophethood THE SECOND TIME an issue of absurdity? Your rejection in this matter itself is absurd. Now please stop playing games and respond to my argument against your view that Imamah in the given verse is Prophethood or accept that your Salafi/Sunni view has no place in the Holy Quran unless the verses are twisted in meaning to suit your interpretation. I will shake the very foundation that you have built your beliefs on. And it is DIFFERENT from Prophethood and could not have been abrogated along with it due to the fact its necessity existed then and is required in all ages. additions and deletions. Our belief is that it was transferred over to the 12 Imams who were selected for the of Authority over the believers after the Holy Prophet's Imamah. (The difference is that a Prophet brings and delivers the guidance and the Imams implement that guidance amongst the people and secure it from any alterations... hence after the tests of Ibrahim (as) and while holding the position of a Prophet..* Allah also appoints Imams as he selects His Prophets * Prophet is not a leader. (The wisdom of testing a "Prophet" first and then allocating him the position of Imamah. he was made a leader.... The more you avoid the issue......... * This Imamah was supposed to continue in the seed of Ibrahim (as) * It would not include the wrong doers........ the more it will convince the readers that your view is absurd and cannot be defended as I have shown that by using the WISDOM of Allah displayed in the Quran... It's just a matter of time. June 3 at 10:40pm via mobile · Like ..... Take care June 3 at 9:16pm via mobile · Like Hijab Khan * give it a go bro. * Both posts are meant for the guidance of Mankind... Respond and find out. Get it a go bro and see where I will take you.
. In connection to ayah 2:124. the earth cant be void with an imam. Pity you have raised few questions without "first" having to prove what I have been "repeatedly" asking to you to do in contrast to the bold claim you made that the Imamah in the verse in view .. how is it logical that Ali is higher in rank than Ibrahim who is supposed to be the first Imam? So there lot of absurdities in your claim. Salam Tuesday at 5:28am via mobile · Like · 2 Hijab Khan You are getting it all wrong though I have made myself clear. if the leadership of Ibrahim continued even after the last of the Prophets. Let's ride with you supposition for a moment. Let me proceed with those point and we'll find out whether you can reallu score any point here. My question is. Abu Jaiyana Mashaallah. Mashaallah. Our difference is that you are already assuming that your doctrine of Imamah is true and it is in the quran. dont assume that your imamah is in the quran. that I am interested in attacking the BASE of any argument and not its walls (to begin with) and I would want you to do the same thing. before Allah declared Ibrahim as Imam. it about refuting and defending the "main" argument... so he is higher than all the Prophets except prophet Muhammad. So you have confirmed that according to your faith. i think that our readers are now seeing the fog gradually lifting. Hence it's not about scoring cheap points. it is good that you are gradually showing us some of the things which you dont want to talk about by confirming the refs which i cited from your scholar It is then clear that you are not to explain your doctrine but you are here ro score cheap points. the ahlus sunnah affirms that but we say it is prophethood. This is what you need to do first. while I am assuming that your doctrine of Imamah is false and it is nowhere in the quran. who was the Imam of the earth since the earth cant be exist without an imam? You also said that the leadership of Ibrahim will continue to his progeny. prove it first my friend. in your faith your Imams are higher in rank than the prophets except prophet Muhammad right? The leader of your Imams is Ali bin Abi Talib.
... It shows how "desperate" you have become by "trying" to avoid my "request" which only proves that you are having a hard time to bring about consistency and a logical sense in your weird and absurd claim. Isn't that fair? Of course it is So can you please reply to the questions I raised: ". I am sorry I have put you through misery bro..is NONE other than Prophethood itself. * Once done with your claim then you would have had the chance to cross examine me and refute me. This is how we set off: * I spoke about my view in a nutshell. I seek your pardon I have no problem in answering your questions. See it's simple! So please wait your turn and allow me to examine your view....How can the Imamah which was granted to Ibrahim (as) be NO OTHER then the prophethood itself... * You responded saying that you disagree with my view and that the Imamah in the verse implied Prophethood.... * We then had TWO opposing views.... as a tactic of "turning the table around" but please wait your turn.. * I responded to you by crossing examining your view in order refute it and EXPECTED AN ANSWER.. when the tests and the trials were placed before him to fulfil PRIOR to attaining the station of his Leadership? And did Allah test a Prophet to grant him the same Prophethood AFTER he passed his tests? Wa salaam. Tuesday at 6:14pm via mobile · Like Abu Jaiyana Salam . which you brought forth..
Is leadership per se means Imamah? I dont think so. the verse is talking about Imamah. Let me spoon feed you: .How can the Imamah which was granted to Ibrahim. had your mother released from prison. Being an imam simply means a leader. then he has a separate position as an Imam aside from being a prophet of God. Your question starts with a wrong premise. you immediately think of your Imamah doctrine." Where the Imamah in the verse my friend? You are assuming that the verse talks about Imamah which absolutely wrong.. Tuesday at 7:00pm · Edited · Like · 2 Hijab Khan Bro. Hijab Khan: Dont beat around the bush. yes or no? AbuJaiyana: But my mother wasnt been in prison. I think that your incorrect presumption is rooted from you deep belief about the Shia doctrine of Imamah and then you want to find textual support from the Quran. Abujaiyana: Tuesday at 7:07pm · Edited · Like · 1 Abu Jaiyana Analyze your question properly: ". since it is literal in what the verse states.. This is a principle called "CUTTING THE FOOT TO FIT THE SHOE" The moment you hear the word Imam. Imamah is a whole different concept that's why I was asking you to define Imamah first.Thats really the reason why I want you to prove first that the verse really talks about Imamah. Jews and Christians also share similar history about Ibrahim but neither of them understood that when God declared Ibrahim as leader for the people. We call that the "Imamite Syndrome" So your question cant be given proper answer because it starts with a wrong premise.. just answer my question. (Islamic leadership) that is our belief. because I dont see anything about Imamah in the verse. It is analogous to something like this: Hijab Khan : Abu Jaiyana..
otherwise we will be left with your absurd view: A prophet was given Prophethood! What? How can a prophet be a Prophet without receiving the Prophethood? These two term are synonymous! The verse is explicit in stating that Allah allocates the posts of Imamah in addition to Prophethood Like I said you can refute me that the verse here does not imply Imamah when IT WILL BE YOUR TURN. Are you still trying to turn the tables by cutting your own feet instead of the shoes? Please don't.... that I am going to make you an Imam FOR THE PEOPLE? Was Ibrahim not a Guide for the people in the first place? Then what is Allah implying by saying: I AM GOING TO MAKE YOU? The above words show that Allah was about to make a Prophet which he was NOT FIRST. ======== There you are.See More Tuesday at 8:11pm · Edited · Like · 2 .. Yes an IMAM since Prophethood is not the same as Imamah. . And give the answers... I have to beg him for it! Tuesday at 7:25pm via mobile · Like Abu Jaiyana Hijab Khan Bro. (Islamic leadership) that is our belief.. the verse is talking about Imamah... thank you for your false statement. Lol. I have cornered you from running already but then how will you walk afterwards? Have a good evening..Allah said to a Prophet.
. Ibrahim was a prophet first and then he was made an imam (leader) and he also asked Allah to extend it to his progeny. it means that to be elevated to being an Imam.. so was I imposing it on you? I think my questions have really bothered you.Allah calls Ibrahim as a Prophet and a Siddiq And make mention in the Book of Ibrâhîm. while it is impossible to have a specific time without an imam (by Al Hilli) * The earth cant exist without an imam by Al Kulayni My question is.. Verily he was a Siddîq (truthful) and a Nabî. Just because you answered. if being an imam is higher than being just a prophet. you have already asking me questions. from the ayah. let me finish my investigation about your responses. Your Imamah doctrine states that: *That it is impossible for there to be a time without an imam appointed by Allah (by Allamah Muzaffar) * It is possible to have a specific period in time without a nabi. I know not easy to handle bro And Wait your horses bro... who was the Imam of the earth before Allah made Ibrahim as Imam? I hope no one would run away Thank you. (Maryam:41) Do you know of any ayah in the Quran in which Allah called Ibrahim as Imam? 2.. one should at least be a prophet first> Question: How would this apply to your 12 Imams when none of them was even a prophet? How would they be promoted to being an Imam like Ibrahim when they were not even prophets? 3.Abu Jaiyana Now. Tuesday at 8:37pm · Like · 2 Hijab Khan When I said that's "our belief" I was talking about the Shia. You will get ample to to scrutinise my responses to your questions. it's my turn to ask you questions: 1. . it doesn't stop there. and his progeny according to the quran were prophets. Therefore.
not at all. You are but a small minority since the beginning of Islam.. ask Jannine Bint about it. (Islamic leadership) that is our belief. Thank you. ahlus sunnah are the great majority of the Muslim Ummah... I already have predicted what you are going to say as an argument in this discussion... our leaders are the ones who compiled and preserved the Quran and we have the sahih record of the sunnah of the Prophet and the practices of the companions of the Prophet. We are not of equal footing whether you accept that fact or not. according to you the Imamah is Prophethood right? In that sense Ibrahim (as) became the Imam (Prophet) of the Prophets and the people? The argument goes back to square one (with the test issue) so can you please make it more clearer before we carry on.. Your argument is not new my friend. -------------------------------"I think my questions have really bothered you. i've been exposed to it many.all you can do is cherry-picking from our books and your books So be ashamed of claiming or attributing Islam for your sect. many times -----------------"So are you saying that Allaah made Ibrahim (as) a leader (Imam) of the prophets and the people?" . so was I imposing it on you? Dont play words my friend. the verse is talking about Imamah. your scholars blasphemed Alllah by saying that the Quran is corrupted and you dont have sahih hadith books . you have to make your statement clear because you made a claim that Imamah means Islamic leadership: Hijab Khan Bro. In fact. I know not easy to handle bro" No. You are referring to Islamic Belief. Wednesday at 5:58am via mobile · Like Abu Jaiyana Hijab Khan When I said that's "our belief" I was talking about the Shia. and we.So are you saying that Allaah made Ibrahim (as) a leader (Imam) of the prophets and the people? Hang on.
Isaac and Jacob . Allah made Ibrahim a leader . it wont work here. I didnt say that.Dont lie my friend. IBRAHIM WAS MADE AS THE LEADER OF THE PROPHETS AFTER HIM.you are putting words to the mouth of your opponent. according to you the Imamah is Prophethood right? . We guided before. 6:84 Sahih International And We gave to Abraham. The proof are cited in my previous post that Ibrahim asked Allah to grant the same to his DESCENDANTS What did Allah give to the descendants of Ibrahim? It is PROPHETHOOD. and among his(Ibrahim) DESCENDANTS.all [of them] We guided. people are reading our posts. Thus do We reward the doers of good.Strawman fallacy. Dont play taqiya with me my friend. Therefore. David and Solomon and Job and Joseph and Moses and Aaron.so you are merely attacking a strawman . your misconception that it is absurd to say that Allah gave prophethood to Ibrahim because Ibrahim was already a prophet That is absolutely true! But that is your self.created problem because I am not saying that. I clearly said that there is no Imamah in the verse. -----------Therefore.What kind of leader? Leader of the Prophets.Correct! ------------------------Hang on. in fact he is one of the Ulul Azam. and no sunni book says that . Proof: 29:27 Sahih International And We gave to Him Isaac and Jacob and placed in his DESCENDANTS PROPHETHOOD and scripture. and indeed. After he passed the test. And We gave him his reward in this world. so how could I say that Imamah is prophethood? . NOT prophet of the prophets. Ibrahim .it's a deceptive fallacy in argumentation . Allah told him that he will be made as the LEADER of the people. And Noah. and this conversation will be uploaded on scribd. What we are saying is that Ibrahim was a great Prophet. and dont twist my words.com I said that in the ayah. he is in the Hereafter among the righteous.
Thanks Wednesday at 7:16am · Like · 2 Sylvester Schwarzenegger "Verily. Therefore. I am going to make you an Imam for mankind. That is why in other ayah Allah called Ibrahim as an Ummah. Original Post: Sylvester Schwarzenegger "Verily. and please no alibis. Thanks. How could a single person be an Ummah? It is because he is the leader of the Prophets after him teaching the same monotheism (Al Hanif) Proof: 16:120 ً ًِهةً قَا َ ن َّ ِإ حٌِيفًا ْ ِى إ َ ّلِّل ِ َّ َ تا ِ را َب َّ ُ كاىَ أ َ هي Ibrâhîm was indeed an Ummah." 28 minutes ago · Like If you continue to post in this thread before any green signal.What did Allah give to the decendants of Ibrahim? Allah said that it is Prophethood. Whether you accept it or not is not the issue. so you are not allowed to post here until there is a green signal from the Admin.also asked Allah to extend that leadership to his DESCENDANTS. you will be kicked out." Wednesday at 7:40am · Like Abu Jaiyana WARNING FOR Sylvester Schwarzenegger This is an exclusive one on one discussion between Hijab Khan and I. devoutly obedient to Allâh and true in faith. no running away. not Imamah 29:27 and 6:84. it is your turn to answer my questions. Ibrahim's leadership means leaders of the Prophets after him. . let the readers decide for themselves -------------So now. AND Allah did grant the request of Ibrahim to his descendants . All your questions and objections have been cleared up and evidences from the quran has been presented. I am going to make you an Imam for mankind. Im not here to convert you.
. Abu Jaiyana: " I said that in the ayah.. Any post from other forum members will be deleted and will be given a warning for ban. Apart from the side unnecessary issues... let us grant the request of our Shii guest that this discussion is exclusive for both of us. Allah made Ibrahim a leader . You may like our post if you agree with our argument.. so what is your problem? You are not a kid and so don't force me to spoon feed you quite often. Thank you.What kind of leader? Leader of the Prophets. according to you this leadership of Ibrahim (as) is Prophethood right? .. and dont twist my words. Dont play taqiya with me my friend.-------------Abu Jaiyana Wa Alaikumusalam Brother Welcome to our debate forum! Ladies and Gents. I didnt say that." Lol. according to you the Imamah is Prophethood right?" (You said): Strawman fallacy.. Bro you know when I use the term Imamah I use it in the sense of leadership and you yourself have translated the term "Imam" as a "leader" and have used it as such many times. Little is that your remember. it wont work here. this is what you stated in connection with what I asked: "So are you saying that Allaah made Ibrahim (as) a leader (Imam) of the prophets and the people?" (You said): Correct! ------------------------"Hang on.. Sunday at 9:01pm via mobile · Like Wednesday at 8:11am · Edited · Like · 1 Hijab Khan Thank you for your reply bro and do pardon me for the little delay. NOT prophet of the prophets.
The leadership given by Allah to Prophet Ibrahim and his progeny is no other than nabuwah and risalah... Ibrahim also asked Allah to extend that leadership to his DESCENDANTS. in fact he is one of the Ulul Azam.. at an earlier post. you said: 3.. He said: And from my progeny? (Will there be Prophets) He said: My covenant (Prophethood) reaches not the unjust" This reverts us back to square one: Why would Allah TEST a Prophet to give him the Prophethood again? It would have made sense if he had " NO" prophethood to begin with it and later received it after passing his tests but to test someone FOR A POSITION ONE ALREADY HOLD'S IS ABSURRRRRRD! Secondly the words: "I am going to make you an Imam for the people" clearly prove that what Ibrahim (as) was about to receive was something OTHER THAN his Prophethood.. You also said: "What we are saying is that Ibrahim was a great Prophet. once this becomes clear we can move on. Allah told him that he will be made as the LEADER of the people..Under your summary. He said: I am going to make you a PROPHET for the mankind. So it is CLEAR (from tour understanding of the verse) that Ibrahim (as) was made a Prophet of the Prophets and the people since this Imamah (leadership) is NO OTHER THAN NABUWAH??? How contradictory and confusing are your beliefs and yet you claim to be proud of them? The proud Majority I will respond to the ayah's you have quoted (in reference to the descendants attaining Prophethood) latter. this leadership which was placed in the seed of Ibrahim (as) according to you is Prophethood and here is your recent bold claim again: "What did Allah give to the decendants of Ibrahim? Allah said that it is Prophethood not Imamah." Now basing it upon what you have always claimed the verse in English translation should look like this: "And remember when your Lord tried Ibrahim with (certain) commands and he fulfilled them. so how can ." But again bro. After he passed the test. since I am having a problem in perceiving SENSE in your usage of the term Imam..
The former will consider the explanation given and the evidences presented and find out whether the evidences given are coherent to the explanation. and a person who pretends to be just asking clarification but his real intention is to promote his hidden agenda. Please don't avoid this. . I have given you the difference between the two earlier on. I‟ve been thinking of other methods on how to approach your way of argumentation this morning..you state: The absurd! The twisted! The contradictory! The confusing! The lame! And above all the NONSENSE! ? SOLUTION: To make this issue clearer. he will just pick-and-choose portions of the explanation given and create a bigger doubt out of it so that when he presents his agenda.. he will simply make an appeal that his argument is correct because the previous explanation was unclear. Hang on we haven't even finished discussing the first stage yet and rest assured you will get the answers from me. can you state the difference between the two according to your understanding please. Wa salaam.. Wednesday at 7:31pm via mobile · Like · 1 Abu Jaiyana Thank you for your response.. no running away. I won't run away... so that we can move on. The latter one. and please no alibis.. There is a difference between a person who asks questions because he needs clarification about something doubtful to him. will not pay attention to the explanation and wouldn‟t bother himself with the evidences given. I think we have to "clarify" the difference between a Prophet and an Imam (Leader).. so chill bro. it is your turn to answer my questions. it is very important. I really want to grill you at every stage of this discussion till you come to your normal senses and see the reality which you are unaware of it at present You said: So now.
No ayah in the Qur‟an which says or addresses Ibrahim as an Imam because the word “imam” in the verse simply means a leader. It wont work my friend. from being just a Prophet to the „Ulul Azm. . I‟ve been exposed to that fallacy Imamah and Imam is not the same banana my friend. We understand that 9/10 of your religion is taqiya. Not all Prophets are among the „Ulul Azm. A person can be called as an Imam without being part and parcel of the concept of Imamah.a. you will use it to mean just leadership.w. Your fallacy is very obvious my friend. This is his objection which you are parroting since the beginning: "Ibrahim (a. He failed to understand the point that Ibrahim‟s status as a prophet could be elevated into a higher status. It is synonymous to the word “Amir” as far as the aspect of leadership is concerned. One of my learned friends informed me and gave me the clear background of your argument and what you are trying to drive out. a belief that the A'immah ("Imams") are the true Caliphs or rightful successors of Muhammad s. What would be the sense in telling him that Allah was going to make him a prophet for men?" I think that I have a mental advantage than Tabatabai though Im not a scholar. I cited other ayat re lated to the status of Ibrahim being called a Prophet and an Ummah by himself. spiritual and political leadership of the Ummah. When convenient. but you are acting like a wild debater in disguise of just merely asking clarifications To proceed: “Bro you know when I use the term Imamah I use it in the sense of leadership and you yourself have translated the term "Imam" as a "leader" and have used it as such many times. That‟s why in my previous explanations. Your argument/objection is from the notion of a Shia scholar Allamah Muhammad Hussayn Tabatabai in his interpretation of the verse (Tafsir al-Mizan). so what is your problem?” My problem is your taqiya.) was already a prophet whose obedience was obligatory for all men. so don‟t use it to me because Im already aware of it You are doing a logical fallacy called fallacy of prosody or accent fallacy. and when convenient.This is the reason why you don‟t want a formatted debate. or a model. The word “imam” in the ve rse simply means a leader or a guide. You are using the term Imamah in the context of this discussion using accent fallacy. not a separate rank or role from his being a Prophet.s. you will use it to mean what the shia doctrine “Imamah” really means. Now the picture is much clearer for me. Imāmah is the Shī„ah doctrine of religious.
He is the leader of the leaders within the scope of being a minister. Each of these Ministers is a leader of his own area or district. If cant still understand the context of this response with all the analogies. here is the analogy for the case of Ibrahim: You like analogy right? Let: . and a king. May Allah give us good understanding. Does the prime minister receive a separate position other than being a minister? The answer is no.The descendants of Ibrahim as Ministers Each member of the parliament is called a Minister. the Prime Minister does not become a President or a King. No one will call you a general. When you become the Chief of Staff. the verse means that Allah elevated the status of the Prophethood of Ibrahim to the „Ulul Azm (higher status of Prophethood) – that‟s the meaning of the statement of Allah “I am going to make you a leader for the people. To spoon feed you further. You did many great accomplishments. What was given to Ibrahim is a higher status of Prophethood and his descendants was given Prophethood as well. All the Ministers have a leader which is also a Minister like all the other Ministers. The Prophets did make their messages clear. Or consider yourself as a military General. your President or King told you that he will make you as the leader of the soldiers (he meant. if you are familiar with a parliamentarian legislature. you did not receive any separate position aside from being a military general. but there are people who are really stubborn and blind.To sum up. you will be promoted to the position of Chief of Staff). Just think of Ibrahim as a minister who was made as the leader of the ministers. It doesn‟t follow that since you are made as the leader of the military. This Leader of the Ministers is called a Prime Minister. Because of your competency and best performance as compared to other Generals. you are still a military general but the highest in rank among the generals. I don‟t know what would. . or a president at the same time simply because you were promoted from your previous military rank. then you have a different function other than that of the military.Ibrahim as the Prime Minister . he is still a Minister but he is the Leader of the other Ministers.
... the verse means that Allah elevated the status of the Prophethood of Ibrahim to the 'Ulul Azm (higher status of Prophethood) .. No wonder he is all over the place with his absurdity.that's the meaning of the statement of Allah " I am . go ahead. this guy hasn't even understood a simple concept of Taqqiyah yet (apart from the false interpretation that is being spread about) and he is boasting about what the verse of Imamah implies regarding a concept which is for more complicated than Taqiyyah. getting good at it now aren't ya? I am seeking a good explanation because the Sunni explanations that I have seen so far are nothing but absurd and contradictory. 19 hours ago · Like · 4 Hijab Khan Thanks for the reply Again you are assuming things.Thanks. it won't change anything Yes Taqqiyah is part of my religion and the way you rant about it shows how ignorant you are about it and there I am thinking. Allow me to completely cross examine you to my satisfaction and then you will get all the time to do the same NEW EXPLANATION: "To sum up. you are correct that the Imamah in the vision of the Shia's is the religious. It's good to know that a learned friend of his.. You want to speak about my intention. the spiritual and the political authority and this is what the verses suggests and you will surely discover this fairly soon inshaAllah.... is now helping him or should I say assisting him in making the matter MORE absurd Anyway lets get down to the business : Correction: Allamah Tabatabai is not alone in refuting the interpretation that Allah tested a Prophet to grant him Prophethood Agreed upon: Yes. as long as you don't do a runner.
. something thing lower than Messengership while it should have been the Risalaah which Ibrahim (as) attained after his tests as a Prophet? How how contradictory your beliefs are? * Allah's statement: " I am going to make you an Imam for the people. but tell me is your friend the person behind the website defending Islam since this argument originates from there or is it that you have a gang searching for "better" answers which only shows that you are not even convinced about your "initial" answer then how do you expect me to blindly follow you? Anyhow since your answer has been elevated from a lower argument to a superior one. this response that some has duped you into will not help at all since it is still lame and contradictory to the norms of the natural doctrine of the Holy Quran and this is how we see it as absurd: * The first Ulul Azm Prophet was Nuh (as). it has to be Messengership since the latter is known to be superior than the former and it is for this reason that not every Nabi is a Rasool but every Rasool is a Nabi... that the Risaalah is the Imamah and are the same? On what basis will you do that since the these two positions are NON-synonymous with each other and the BIGGER problem that you would face is that you own interpretation will become a barrier between the Messengership and the Imamah issue because you have "quoted" a verse that claims that the PROGENY of Ibrahim (as) was vested with Prophethood. you will find that this would have been during or after his Hajj rites and when did he build the Kaba? I am sure you must be aware that this was done when his own son helped him build the foundations of it.going to make you a leader for the people. why was he not used as the PRIME example of the elevated Leadership rather than someone who came next in order? Would you have a logical explanation for this question? I doubt it since Ulul Azm." Do you know at what point of time this statement was made? Ask your friend. So are you going to tell me now. I'll call this answer the "leader/Imam of all answers" But again I am sorry." At least a better try this time bro. or read it at Defending Islam or even read the Tafsirs yourself. has nothing to do with Imamah! * If it is agreed that Imamah is the elevated position of Prophethood then in that case.. who was born to him when Ibrahim (as) had become an OLD MAN and by this AGE will you ARGUE with me that Ibrahim (as) became a "Messenger" at an OLD AGE? (Only in desperation you would!) .
it is good that we are moving along. in that case. so there is no need to repeat it. like this: 11 hours ago via mobile · Like Abu Jaiyana Okay. you are not satisfied with whatever answer is given to you. and ask.. I really see a clear hypocrisy here. Thanks . and ask. if he was made a PRIME MINSTER then his Progeny would have been "prime minsters"too so who were the ordinary minsters then? His followers? Anyway I don't want to get into side issues. I will leave my case to the readers. be the same as Prophethood or the Messengership. you dont want to have a formatted debate because all you want to do is ask. So let's hear your side now. it is not surprising that you will not be satisfied with the explanation of a non-scholar. or the combined version of "Ulul Azm Prophethood" which were ALL current positions of Ibrahim (as) MUCH PRIOR to the Hajj rites of his concluding period of life? And don't forget to ponder over what has been stated above. my explanation is the same as the explanations of our scholars. we'll find out how satisfactory you explanation would be and the evidences that you would present.Look where we have reached? And please don't give me your incorrect analogy of the Prime Minister and the Ministers since what Ibrahim asked for his progeny was the SAME as what he received. If you would not present your argument in your next post. As you have pointed out before. My answer to your last response would be the same. it will just bounce back. then you are just playing taqiya and I will call for an end of this discussion. just explain to me: How can the Imamah which was given to Ibrahim (as) in his old age. and refute and refute for the sake of refuting that's why no matter how elementary explanation is given to you.. Have a good time in MAKING sense to your followers and brothers in faith. while my brothers in faith can have a smile on their face.
so please don't blindly and proudly follow the path of the ignorant. Im just presenting my understanding of the verse and the view of our scholars.. it's a salafi crap that we do Taqiyah to deceive people. inshaAllah. how an u give up so easily?we just touched upon the new explanation just now? I want to see whether my concerns are justified or not. Try to answer my new arguments against your NEW explanation. Now. Post your argument now no more taqiya please 10 hours ago · Like Hijab Khan Bro there is no Taqiyah here.... There are fundamental reasons which cause me to differ with your explanation.. but give your best shot 10 hours ago via mobile · Like Abu Jaiyana No its not difficult at all.10 hours ago · Edited · Like Hijab Khan What Taqiyah? It's not that I am not rejecting your views in Taqiyah it's just that they don't make SENSE due to what I have stated. let's hear from your side. Taqiyah is used when the life is in danger nothing more.. Im not here to convert you to Islam. .. Thanks 10 hours ago via mobile · Like Hijab Khan I knew this post was going to be difficult for you bro.. How am I deceiving you? I am showing you the absurdity and the contradictions I am seeing. As you have said our scholars say the same so it means that majority of the Muslims agrees with my understanding of the ayah. Give an answer and then I'll give you my version of it...
Imamah was to continue in his seed: َّ وإِيتَاء ال َ م الص َو َز ُه ْ ِن ف ْ يٌَا إِ َل ْح ْ َوةً ي َديي ِب ِ كا ِ ََّل ِ ْرا َ ل ا ْلخَ ي َ ع َ ْوأَو َج َ و ْه ْ َ بأ َّ ِن أَئ ْ ُع ْلٌَاه َ ة َ ة َ ت َ رًَا َ (Al Anbiya:73) ِي ِ كاًُىا لٌََا عَا َ وإِقَا ِ َدوى ِ ه [21:73--Alanbiya:73] And We made them Imams who guided (people) by Our command.... .. I feel sad.Yes you are presenting me the view of your scholars but I want an alternative explanation since what you have just given me is still absurd.. It was a new argument and a new rebuttal.. Whether it is satisfactory or not. you retired in the first round of your new argument.... and Us (alone) did they serve. seems you are doing Taqiyah now. Im waiting. Anyway I have explained my side of it haven't I? Our belief: This Imamah (granted in the old age) is separate from the Prophethood/Messengership/combined version Ulul Azm (granted much prior to an old age) The tests really make a big difference to these posts. Try to answer my query at least. my objective has not been fulfilled.. 10 hours ago · Like Hijab Khan Bro I thought we were gonna go a long way with it.. why given up in the first round? Bro. It is now your turn to present your exegesis... I said present your argument now because I am done with mine. Lol 10 hours ago via mobile · Like Abu Jaiyana You are just beating around the bush. I leave that for the readers to decide.. and We revealed to them the doing of good and the keeping up of prayer and the giving of the alms.
........ And mainly the roles of these posts are different... these are additional favours of Allah. Allah also stated that He placed Hikmah and Kingdom (Mulkiyah) in the seed of Ibrahim (as) too. contained the word Prophethood and what I quoted contains the word Imams. There are narrations that this verse was revealed about Imam Ali at Ghadir.What you quoted. Why would Allah need an Islamic leadership BESIDES the Prophethood? Because the latter was to to be taken away while the Islamic leadership was to remain as a "necessity" even after Prophethood.. 9 hours ago via mobile · Like Abu Jaiyana Thank you for that. Other than that the Sunni locate this verse outside the frame of al-Ghadir but the way they do it is FAR MORE ABSURD than the verse we have been discussing (2:124)..... Prophet MUHAMMAD (P) was the last Prophet and the Messenger but surely he was NOT the last Imam on the earth... Indeed. Allah does not guide the disbelieving people.. Prophethood/Messengership. This is enough for you to raise your concerns like I did.. that would be Imam Mahdi (as).. Your presentation creates more problems/questions than answers .. this means that both of these posts were administered by his progeny.. announce that which has been revealed to you from your Lord. And Allah will protect you from the people. These are not contradictions.. then you have not conveyed His message... and if you do not.fire away. He was divinely appointed as an authority over the believers at Ghadir al-Khum under this command: Sahih International: O Messenger. This was transferred over to the 12 Imams. Abu Hatim in his Tafsir has a narration from Abu Saeed al-Khudri claiming so.. they role is to receive and deliver while the role of the a imamah is to implement and expand you what has been revealed and to protect Islam form distortion. etc. the first being Imam Ali ibn Abu Talib (as).
s. Your belief is that he must be given another position aside from Prophethood.In your doctrine of Imamah. one must be a Prophet first before becoming an Imam .1 . and you insisted that after passing the test he was given another separate and a higher position called Imamah. thus they were made leaders to their respective people.Your Imamh doctrine states that the earth cant be void with an Imam . announce that which has been revealed to you from .Okay. the leaders are called Imam/A'immah such as Imam Ali.Do you have any Quranic evidence that the descendants of Ibrahim mentioned in the ayah (2:124) include your 12 Imams? Question #6 .Who is higher in rank. Ibrahim s.Where is your evidence for this claim from the Quran or Sahih hadith? Question #5 .Do you believe in this belief about the Imams: "Imâms possess a status with Allâh that neither Angel nor Messenger can aspire to" Question #2 .a. Can you provide for us any ayah from the Quran in which Ibrahim a. here we go: In my explanations.I also provided an ayah that the descendants of Ibrahim referred to in the ayah was the sons of Ibrahim and Allah gave them Prophethood and they were called Prophets.You refused to believe our exegesis that when Allah made Ibrahim a leader it means his level of Prophethood is elevated.Is this true to your 12 Imams? Question #4 . In your doctrine of Imamah.You wrote "Prophethood/Messengership." . I argued and refuted you that 2:124 doesnt talk about Imamah and I also accused you of employing a fallacy of accent.Who is the Imam of the earth before Ibrahim was made as an Imam? Question#1. or a Rasul of Allah? Question#1. Let's see if these are true: Question #1 .3 . they role is to receive and deliver while the role of the a imamah is to implement and expand you what has been revealed and to protect Islam form distortion. Based on that model. a Prophet of Allah. was called by Allah as "Imam Ibrahim" or just simply "Imam"? Question #1. etc. and so on. who is higher in rank. to be an Imam. or Ali bin Abi Talib? Question #7 . Can you provide for us any ayah from the Quran in which Allah gave the sons of Ibrahim Imamah aside from their Prophethood? Question #3 . that is Imamah which is higher than being just a Prophet.Ibrahim was a Prophet.You quoted " O Messenger.2 .
." You know that only a very small minority. the shia.. believe that.. I'll respond the question numbered 7 and open up a discussion about it so that I could connect the Leadership of the Imams back to the original chain. Thank you 7 hours ago · Edited · Like Hijab Khan That is what I was trying to avoid.. Allah does not guide the disbelieving people. Yes I have investigated the other reports concerning this matter and believe that the verse fits quite well with the incident of al-Ghadir in precedence to all other occasions..So I have to clarify some points and ask the evidences of your claims as well. Don't forget your cross examination of this verse will be to disconnect my link with the verse of Imamah 2:124 This is all part of the same discussion but in stages. Anyway we will talk about one issue at a time. And Allah will protect you from the people.your Lord.. Our view of the verse: .There are narrations that this verse was revealed about Imam Ali at Ghadir.... i cant connect the dots . We will let the Quran speaks for itself.Is it talking about Ali bin Abi Talib or about the People of the scripture? ------------------------All your presentations are mere claims/assertions..... and if you do not. What is the context of that ayah in consideration to the verse before it and the verse after it . Let's begin: I have given you my choice of the location of the verse and its reason and I want you to give me the reason of its revelation WITH EVIDENCE so that we can cross examine each others views.. Have you examined other narrations as to the Asbab an-nuzul of that ayah and have you examined whether the context of this verse fits with the Shia claim? We may disagree with which hadith should be considered reliable. not supported by evidences and there is no coherency. Indeed. then you have not conveyed His message. to talk about so many issues in ONE go.
they will not take long. our interpretation of the verse is as follows: O Messenger! Deliver what has been revealed to you from your Lord (concerning Imam Ali) and if you do it NOT then you have not delivered His Message (as a whole) and Allah will protect you from the (mischief) of people. it is much related to the main topic.. One interpretation and as for the second you called it off in the first round. 7 hours ago via mobile · Like Abu Jaiyana It is part of your presentation. You only discussed one with me. I know well how to connect the main things in order and if the basis are connected the rest of the links will click in..As found in narrations. this verse (5:67) was revealed at Ghadir al-Khum concerning Imam Ali (as): On the basis of such reports and the sermon of al-Ghadir.I will guaranttee that our evidences outweigh your evidences in this topic.. Allah guides not those who reject faith. so there is no need for you to be afraid of those questions. you tried to connect the so-called Imamah of the descendants of Ibrahim to Ali using that verse.they are very categorical. Thanks 7 hours ago · Like Hijab Khan I won't have time to discuss all those topics. So please give me your argument/refutation against what I have stated if you disagree 7 hours ago via mobile · Like Abu Jaiyana No taqiya please. 6 hours ago · Like .. but let us settle this step by step in chronological order Start answering from #1. many of those questions are answerable by yes or no and some by one sentence or two .. Wa salaam....
. Now can you show me where Allah called Ibrahim (as) Ishaq (as) and Yaqub (as) as Ulul Azm Prophets? All three were made IMAMS by Allah and for the latter two see: 21:72-73? Once you find for me where Allah called these people UlulAzm Prophets and then I'll show you where Ibrahim (as) was called an Imam beneath it Question 1. and this Imamah is a "position" not a NAME and this is same as calling Ibrahim (as) a Prophet by his POSITION not his name.... I hope i was wrong 6 hours ago · Like Hijab Khan Lol.. just yes or no questions and some are answerable by a single ayah or single sentence... then the same answer will be given over and over again .3 Yes I do since the Imamah is greater than Prophethood and this can be seen trough the tests and the latter position of Ibrahim (as)... I'll give you my answers but won't discuss them except in my order.Can you quote me the narration please.... Taqiyah. I really felt before that you will be running away when my turn comes..2 a Rasool is higher than a Prophet. Abu Jaiyana Your question to me was the same question all over. You are just opening up too many topics at ONE time. So we will leave that to the audience to decide.. It is not that i didnt want to answer your question. Question: 1. Question: 1.. (1) Allah's saying that: I am going to make you an IMAM for mankind is enough for us that he was made an Imam for the people. but since the same question is being asked over and over. Q2: ... Shows how well the Salafis have been doing their home work. the ones I have seen give the impression that the earth cannot be devoid of an Imam (proof of Allah) after Prophethood. Anyway you won't budge.that would be until forever... Now answer my questions..1 .
just like Prophethood has ranks.. and they were worshippers of Us.(19:41) So is the word "prophet" a name of Ibrahim? I dont think so! This is really the problem of interpreting an ayah without knowing the inter-textual context of it. Rasool and an Imam Q 5: The evidence is 2:124 Imams were to descend from the line of Ibrahim (as) WITHOUT any indication of the Imamah coming to an end.. it is like an assistant manager who was promoted as a manager yet still called as asst... it's the qualities and not the tag. and giving of zakah.. (21:72-73) Q: 3 One does not have to be a Prophet PRIOR to becoming an Imam.. And We inspired to them the doing of good deeds.." Hey. manager instead of being a manager . he was a man of truth and a prophet. Q4: it is based upon the literal meaning if these terms: Nabi. Q6: Imam Ali's Imamah is higher. and all [of them] We made righteous..that's absolutely ludicrous argument my friend ----------------- . To use your own analogy. establishment of prayer.. Imamah has ranks. So what happens now according to your point of view? Ibrahim was given a separate higher rank yet he was not called/addressed by that higher position he received.. Allah did call Ibrahim by his position And mention in the Book [the story of] Abraham. that's not true. 5 hours ago via mobile · Like Abu Jaiyana Truth stands clear from falsehood! You said "and this Imamah is a "position" not a NAME and this is same as calling Ibrahim (as) a Prophet by his POSITION not his name. Indeed. Q 7: I gave you my response and now give me yours.And We gave him Isaac and Jacob in addition. And We made them IMAMS guiding by Our command.
i was asking whether they were given Imamah.. Musa. this is the dilemma. And We made them IMAMS guiding by Our command. and all [of them] We made righteous.Do you believe in this belief about the Imams: "Imâms possess a status with Allâh that neither Angel nor Messenger can aspire to" Your answer was " Yes I do since the Imamah is greater than Prophethood and this can be seen trough the tests and the latter position of Ibrahim (as). you are not familiar with your own doctrine. It is written in al(Kâfî (Usûl) vol. 1 p.. it is very clear that you really no idea about this subject. Moses.3 ." Nah. -----------------------------------Q2: And We gave him Isaac and Jacob in addition. the ones I have seen give the impression that the earth cannot be devoid of an Imam " Oh my oh my. Are you really serious that your Imam Ali bin Abi Talib is greater than those people? I really dont know what to call your idea. Ibrahim." Duh. Our claim is that they were given prophethood: And We ordained amongst his (Ibrahim) progeny Prophethood and Revelation. (al„Ankabût:27) . I suggest that you better study your doctrine properly before engaging in a debate with us. and Nuh (pbut all) are you really honest there my friend? -----------------------------------------------You asked "Can you quote me the narration please.. that was not my question. Dawud. or a big joke. This the reason why you cant see the absurdity of your claim.You said "Now can you show me where Allah called Ibrahim (as) Ishaq (as) and Yaqub (as) as Ulul Azm Prophets?" Wheeww! Who told you that Ishaq and Yaqub are members of the Ulul Azm? Frankly speaking. Essa. Prophet Muhammad was a Prophet and a Messenger of God like Ibrahim. and Jesus pbut. -------------------------------Question#1. I did not ask whether they were made leaders.. an act of kufr. 233. The Ulul Azam are: Muhammad.
We gave him Ishâq and Ya„qûb. the word "Imam" is not the same as Imamah. and your Lord is Wise. thus do We reward those who good. And (We guided) Zakariyyâ. Imamah has ranks. and Mûsâ." Why not? That is according to 2:124. and Yûnus. and Yahyâ. and among his (Ibrâhîm's) progeny (We guided) Dâwûd. give me just one name -----------------------You said "Imam Ali's Imamah is higher. disqualifies all your 12 Imams. Ibrahim was already a prophet when he was given Imamah because he passed a certain test. and „Isâ.. All(Knowing. all of them of the Righteous. just like Prophethood has ranks.. and Yûsuf. ----------------You said "One does not have to be a Prophet PRIOR to becoming an Imam.. You use 2:124. We raise in degree whomsoever We will. they were specifically mentioned in the Quran. it's the qualities and not the tag. and Lût." . And before that. each of them We guided. then stick to it -------------------You said "it is based upon the literal meaning if these terms: Nabi. and Hârûn. So now. and Sulaymân. (al„Ankabût:27) Such was the argument we gave Ibrâhîm against his people. So where is the mentioned of your 12 Imams in the Quran. it is based on your biased interpretation and understanding. We guided Nûh. according to the very ayah which you used to promote your doctrine of Imamah. and Ilyâs. you dont have any evidence for it ------------You argued: "The evidence is 2:124 Imams were to descend from the line of Ibrahim (as) WITHOUT any indication of the Imamah coming to an end. And Ismâ„îl. (al An„âm : 83-86) So the progeny of Ibrahim mentioned in 2:124 are not anonymous people. So from being a prophet to being an Imam. and Alyasa„. each of them We favoured above all the worlds.. Rasool and an Imam " No.So where is the ayah that Allah ordained Imamah for them? Dont play fallacy of accent here." I am asking for an evidence because I argued that the descendants of Ibrahim mentioned in the verse refers to his sons who were Prophets: proof: And We ordained amongst his (Ibrahim) progeny Prophethood and Revelation. and Ayyûb.
No evidence at all. mr. How could a non-prophet Imam be higher than an Imam and a prophet ? Absurdity. absurdity ------------We will settle these problems first before going to the issue of question #7 because I can sense that you are making it as an escape goat for running away from the problems above. Thank you about an hour ago · Edited · Like · 1 .
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