JACKSON V AEGLive May 29

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2013 Trial Transcripts
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Paul Gongaware
(Co-CEO of AEG Live Concerts West, This Is It Producer)
Plaintiff’s Adverse Witness.

Direct examination (resumed)
By Mr. Panish:
Q. Good morning, Mr. Gongaware.
A. Good morning.
Q. You have a chance to meet with your attorneys after court yesterday?
A. Yes, Sir.
Q. Did you meet with them again today?

A. A little bit this morning, yes.
Q. How much time did you spend after court?
A. Half hour last night; maybe a half hour, 45 minutes this morning.
Q. Did you go over some more documents?
A. No, Sir. We just talked.
Q. Did your memory get refreshed?
A. It's always been there.
Q. Ok, well, Sir... First I want to ask you, yesterday you told us ... Correct me if I’m wrong ...
Who are we to insist who Michael Jackson would have for a doctor. Did I say that right?
A. I don't know if the wording is correct, but that's my sentiment.
Q. Ok, and Sir... I'd like to ask you, who are you to enter into a contract of AEG and Dr. Murray
and not have Michael Jackson a party to that contract?
A. Michael Jackson would have been a party to the contract.
Q. Well, Sir... The contract doesn't list Michael Jackson as a party, does it?
A. I don't know. I've never seen the contract.
Q. So my question ... Assume that the contract under parties has Dr. Murray, AEG and Dr.
Murray's company. I want you to just assume that for me since you haven't seen that
A. Yes, Sir.
Q. Who was AEG to enter into a contract with Dr. Murray and not have Michael Jackson being a
party to it?
A. My understanding was Michael Jackson is a party.
Q. I asked you to assume that in the parties it doesn't list him. By the way, since you've been in
this lawsuit, you've never once asked to see the contract with Dr. Murray?
A. No.
Q. And so I want you to assume that there are three parties to the contract in the parties where it
says ... You're familiar with contracts; right?
A. Somewhat.
Q. Where they list who are the parties; right. You know who a party is to a contract, you’re
familiar with that?
A. Yes, Sir. I guess.

Q. Ok, and I want you to assume in the contract with Dr. Murray, it was dr. Murray, dr. Murray's
company, and AEG; Ok. You understand that?
A. Yes, Sir.
Q. Ok, who was AEG to enter into a contract with just them and Dr. Murray?
A. I'm not understanding the question, Sir.
Q. Well, you told us, who is AEG to tell Michael Jackson who his doctor is; right?
A. I believe so.
Q. Ok, so I want to know who is AEG to enter into a contract with Dr. Murray as a party to the
contract.
A. I have no idea.
Q. Why did AEG need to enter into a contract with Dr. Murray?
A. I don't know.
Q. Now, Sir... Yesterday you told us that AEG ...who is AEG to fire Dr. Murray. Do you
remember that?
A. Not specifically.
Q. Ok, AEG could fire dr. Murray at any time, couldn't they, Sir?
A. I don't believe so. He was Michael’s doctor.
Q. Well, Sir... Karen Faye, you talked about how you were going to pull the plug on her
yesterday; right?
AEG objection: misstates prior testimony; sustained.
Q. You remember the email where it said, pull the plug. You remember that, Sir?
A. Yes. That was Randy who said that.
Q. Right. And he was referring to Karen Faye, right. That's what you told us yesterday?
A. I believe he was.
Q. Yea, so Karen Faye was Michael Jackson’s hairdresser, wasn't she, for 20 years?
A. She would have been an employee of the tour.
Q. Just like Dr. Murray was going to be an employee of the tour; right, Sir?
A. No, Sir. He was Michael Jackson’s physician.

Q. But the contract that he was entering into was between him and AEG, wasn't it, Sir?
AEG objection: lacks foundation; overruled.
A. Michael Jackson was a part of that whole thing.
Q. You've never even seen the contract, have you, Sir?
A. No, Sir.
Q. You don't know who is a party to it because you've never seen it, have you?
A. That's true.
Q. And, Sir... Have you seen the contract with Karen Faye?
A. No.
Q. If it was Michael Jackson’s doctor, why was AEG entering into a contract with Michael
Jackson’s doctor?
AEG objection: asked and answered and argumentative; sustained.
Q. Sir... You said that this is Michael Jackson’s doctor; right?
A. Yes.
Q. Ok, can you tell us why AEG would enter into a contract with Michael Jackson’s doctor?
AEG objection: same objection; sustained.
Q. Ok, is it fair to say you don't know why AEG would enter into a contract with Michael
Jackson’s doctor?
A. Yes. Fair to say that.
Q. Ok, and AEG, you told us, Mr. Phillips… excuse me, was going to pull the plug on Karen
Faye, Michael Jackson’s hairdresser for 20 years; right?
A. I believe that's what he was referring to.
Q. And AEG had the power to do that; right, Sir?
A. She was an employee ... Would have been an employee of the tour, so yes.
Q. So she was going to be an employee of AEG Live Productions; isn't that right, Sir?
A. I believe so.

Q. Now, Michael Jackson never negotiated any price with Dr. Murray, did he, Sir?
A. I believe he did through me. He instructed me on what to offer him.
Q. Sir... Did Michael Jackson, to your knowledge, ever negotiate directly with Dr. Murray?
A. I don't know.
Q. Ok, the only one that you know that negotiated with Dr. Murray was yourself and Mr.
Woolley; correct?
AEG objection: misstates prior testimony; overruled.
A. I believe so.
Q. And in the contract with Karen Faye, she had to do what was demanded by the producer;
correct?
AEG objection: lack of foundation; sustained.
Q. You've never seen Karen Faye’s contract or any of the independent contractors' contracts for
anyone on the tour; is that right, Sir?
A. That's right.
Q. So you don't know what their duties were and what their responsibilities were; right?
A. That's right.
Q. Ok, was Faye, Karen Faye, an independent contractor or employee, Sir. Or do you know?
A. Don't know for sure.
Q. And you felt it was appropriate to put that expense for Dr. Murray as a production expense;
correct?
A. I think what we were referring to yesterday was his housing. And I didn't necessarily agree
with it, but I didn't really argue with Timm at that point because all those things would be settled
in the final settlement. Dr. Murray would have been 100 percent charged to Michael Jackson.
Q. Sir... You never read the contract, did you?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. You don't know what the contract called for, do you?
A. No.

Q. Sir... When we were talking yesterday, we were talking about 300,000. Was that the cost of
the housing for Dr. Murray in London, Sir?
A. The 300,000 that you're referring to that you showed me yesterday was I think called medical
management, and I don't know what that was.
Q. Ok, but that wasn't for housing, was it, Sir?
A. I don't know.
Q. Now, Sir... We were talking about the meetings, and you were unclear as to how many and
when, and you did remember one with Dr. Murray; right?
A. Yes, Sir.
Q. Ok, now, what does it mean to engage someone?
A. In a contractual sense?
Q. Well, Sir... Have you ever said that you had a meeting with Dr. Murray about engaging him?
A. I don't recall.
Mr. Panish: Ok, let's play the deposition.
Q. Do you recall a meeting at the carolwood house where the conversation was that you
needed to make sure Dr. Murray had everything he needed to get Michael where he needed
to be? Do you recall that?
Paul Gongaware: there was a meeting at the carolwood house that included Dr. Murray,
yes.
Q. And do you recall also at that meeting discussing Mr. Jackson's health, eating habits,
nutrition; that kind of thing?
Paul Gongaware: I’m not sure that those…I’m not sure about those things, but it was
about, you know, Dr. Murray and engaging him.
Q. And do you recall at that meeting
Mr. Panish: stop right there. I think counsel wanted to change that testimony.
Mr. Putnam: he changed this from Dr. Murray and engaging him to Dr. Murray and
engaging Michael Jackson.
Mr. Panish: Ok

Q. Sir... After your testimony, you went back ... Remember, you met with the lawyers, and then
you changed it from engaging him, you added in Michael Jackson; right?
A. Yes.
Q. Ok, what does it mean...
Judge: just to clarify, the change is Dr. Murray and engaging him and Michael Jackson or
is it...
Mr. Putnam: no, the he is replaced ... He defines the him as Michael Jackson.
Q. Ok, you never wrote that change out yourself, did you, Sir?
A. I discussed it with my lawyers.
Q. That was the thing that you had in your head after you read the deposition, all those changes
that you wanted to make; right?
A. One of them.
Q. And you specifically remembered that you wanted to change him to Michael Jackson. You
remembered that specifically; right?
A. I don't remember what the numbers were, but I do remember it.
Q. And that was a month after your deposition, you remembered it?
A. I don't recall when we discussed it.
Q. Ok, now, Sir... What does it mean to engage someone. You told us, I think, earlier, to enter
into a contract; is that right?
A. Here, I think we were talking about making sure Michael Jackson was engaged and focused
on the job that he had to do.
Q. Ok, before you said it was ... Engage means to enter into a contract with someone; right?
A. Well, I didn't understand what you were getting at, Sir.
Q. I just asked you what engage meant to you. Remember that?
A. Yes.
Q. Ok, when you say, engaged, what does that mean… engaging… what does that mean, as the
second definition you've given us?
A. In this light, Sir. This context?
Q. Put aside what you said about a contract. Engaging someone, what does that mean to you?

A. Getting them involved; getting them focused.
Q. Getting them involved. What does that mean, showing up to rehearsal?
A. Engaged mentally; making sure they're engaged.
Q. Well, Sir... If you're engaged, are you showing up to rehearsal?
A. I don't know if I was specifically referring to rehearsals.
Q. Engaged just means focus… is that what it means to you, Sir…focus?
A. Yes.
Q. Ok, so you didn't think Mr. Jackson was focused at this time; right?
A. Well, I believe that was Kenny’s concern; that he wanted him to be more focused.
Q. Well, Sir... What about your concern…did you have any concerns at this time?
A. No, none at all. Michael Jackson was going to show up.
Q. Ok
A. He had no obligation and no contractual obligation to rehearse. He'd gone before without ...
Doing shows without ever rehearsing, and when the house lights went out in London, Michael
Jackson was going to be sensational. I knew that.
Q. Did he make it to London, Sir?
A. No.
Q. So he didn't ... He wasn't there like you thought, was he Sir?
A. No.
Q. Now, Sir... Kenny Ortega was very concerned about Michael Jackson not going to rehearsals;
correct?
A. He was concerned.
Q. He was very concerned, wasn't he, Sir?
A. You'd have to ask Kenny.
Q. Ok, well Sir... Isn't it true that when you were there at that meeting, Dr. Murray was
discussing with the group of people about Michael Jackson’s health?
A. I don't think he really talked about Michael Jackson’s health as much as we talked about, you
know, Michael getting the nutrition he needed, getting the things he needed to be successful.
Q. Sir... Was Dr. Murray talking about Michael Jackson’s health at that meeting; yes or no?
A. I think if he talked about his health, it was in a general sense.

Q. Is that a yes, Sir?
A. No. It's what happened at the meeting.
Mr. Panish: well, let's play what you said in your deposition.
Q. And at that meeting, Dr. Murray was discussing with you Michael Jackson’s health,
correct?
Paul Gongaware: No, he didn't really discuss it with me.
Q. Who was he discussing it with?
Paul Gongaware: the group.
Q. Who else was in the group?
Paul Gongaware: Kenny was there, Randy...
Q. Did you change that in your changes to your deposition?
A. No, Sir.
Q. Did you ask Dr. Murray, what were the treatments he was giving Michael Jackson?
A. No.
Q. Did Dr. Murray discuss with you Michael Jackson’s treatments for any problems with
sleeping?
A. No.
Q. Well, Sir... Do you remember testifying at your deposition that you don't recall whether or not
Dr. Murray discussed Michael Jackson’s sleep at that meeting?
A. I don't recall that, but I don't remember him talking about it.
Q. Do you recall if the issue of Michael’s sleep was discussed at that meeting?
A. No, I don't recall.
Q. You don't recall whether it was discussed or not, do you, Sir?
A. I don't think it was.
Q. But now you remember it wasn't discussed. After six months from your deposition, you now
remember it was not discussed?
AEG objection. Misstates prior testimony; overruled.

A. I don't believe it was discussed.
Q. But you didn't remember that in your deposition. Remember, Sir?
AEG objection: misstates prior testimony; overruled.
A. I didn't remember it at the time, obviously, but I don't believe it was discussed.
Q. Ok, what is it that refreshed your recollection of the last six months. Was it a meeting with
your lawyers?
A. Just going through everything, going through all the documents in chronological order, trying
to figure everything out, and putting myself back in that place, and trying to remember what I
was thinking at the time.
Q. Well, what document did you see that caused you to now say that the sleep issue wasn't
discussed? Could you tell us specifically what that document was?
A. No, I was just able to go back with the documents and refresh myself as to what was on my
mind at the time.
Q. Ok, what in the documents refreshed your mind that sleep was not discussed at that meeting,
Sir?
A. I don't recall a specific document.
Q. Ok, and Sir... In all those documents you reviewed, you never took a minute to review the Dr.
Murray contract?
A. No.
Q. Now, Mr. Ortega had called that meeting; correct?
A. I believe so.
Q. Now, Sir... Have you ever denied under oath that you talked with Dr. Murray about Michael
Jackson’s health?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Well, Sir... Have you ever testified that you did not talk to Dr. Murray about Michael
Jackson’s health?
A. I don't recall.

Q. All right…now Sir... You talked about Michael Jackson’s nutrition. I'm going to withdraw that
question. One meeting, another meeting you remember at carolwood, was when Michael Jackson
showed up late; right?
A. Yes.
Q. And that's where you thought he was under the influence of some prescription medication;
correct?
A. I thought he was off at the time. Just wasn't quite right.
Q. He had slurred speech; right?
A. A little bit.
Q. Well, you thought he was under the influence of a prescription medication, didn't you, Sir?
A. I didn't know what he was under the influence of, but he was a little bit off.
Q. He had just gone to a doctor, hadn't he, Sir?
A. Yes, I believe it was Dr. Klein.
Q. And did you know Dr. Klein was giving him Demerol shots?
A. No, I didn't know that.
Q. You've never known that?
A. No.
Q. You didn't know that until today?
A. I didn't know he was giving him anything.
Q. So that's the first time you ever heard that?
A. I may have heard it, but I had no idea what dr. Klein was doing.
Q. But right after Dr. Klein's visit, Michael Jackson came to the home, and you felt that he was
off and had slurred speech; correct?
A. Yes, Sir.
Q. And, Sir... You just testified that you were concerned about Mr. Jackson's nutritional needs; is
that correct?
A. At the meeting with Dr. Murray, that was discussed, yes.
Q. Have you ever testified that you never had anything to do with Mr. Jackson's nutritional
needs?
A. I don't recall.

Q. Ok, well, let's go to this page of your testimony under oath in this case, December 20th, 2012.
Remember that deposition, Sir?
A. Yes.
Q. And how many times have you read it before you came here to testify?
A. I read it once when it was presented to me the first time, and I read it a few weeks ago.
Q. So the answer is two?
A. Yes, Sir.
Q. All right, did you watch the video of your testimony?
A. No.
Mr. Panish: Ok, well, let's watch this page about the nutritional needs.
Q. Do you recall ever being involved in looking for a nutritional person for Michael?
Paul Gongaware: I never was.
Q. You were never involved in that?
Paul Gongaware: No
Q. Do you know if anyone at AEG was looking for a nutritional person for Michael?
Paul Gongaware: I don't know
Q. That's not true, is it, Sir?
A. I did later see an email. I think one of the ones you presented that reminded me that I did look
for a nutritionist.
Q. Ok, Sir... You said ... You didn't say, I don't recall, you said, I never was involved under oath
in your deposition, didn't you, Sir?
A. I didn't recall it at the time.
Q. Sir... Did you say, I never was?
A. I believe I did. I just saw that.
Q. Ok, and when you signed it and made your changes that your lawyer helped you with, did you
change that testimony?
A. No, Sir.

Mr. Panish: let's show you, Sir... Another exhibit, which was showed to your deposition
when you said you never were involved in that situation. It's an exhibit of your deposition.
Q. This is you getting involved with Mr. Jackson for a nutritionist and a physical therapist; right?
A. Yeah, that's what it is. But your question was, was I involved with his nutrition, I believe. I
was attempting to find a nutritionist for him, but I didn't deal with his nutrition.
Q. I asked if you were involved ... All right… who is Arlyne Lewiston.
A. She is Randy's assistant.
Q. Randy, is he sitting right there in the courtroom, he just showed up?
A. Yes, Sir.
Q. Is that him, is that your boss?
A. Yes, Sir.
Q. Ok now, let's go back, Sir... And let's look at another exhibit and Sir... Is it your testimony you
were not involved in trying to find a nutritionist for Mr. Jackson?
A. Well, obviously, I was trying to find a nutritionist, but I was not involved in his nutrition.
Q. Well, I just played your deposition. You remember?
A. Right.
Q. Where you denied having any involvement in nutrition at all. You remember that, Sir?
A. I interpreted that to mean that I had anything to do with what he ate, or whatever, and that's
how I understood that question.
Q. Well, let's see how you answered it. The question about finding a nutritionist. That's where
we're at. Your involvement in finding a nutritionist. You said you never were involved; right…
that right?
A. I don't recall specifically.
Q. You just said you weren't involved; right?
A. I was involved in finding him a nutritionist and this email reminded me of that.
Mr. Panish: Ok, well, let's see what you said in your deposition.
Q. Do you recall ever being involved in looking for a nutritional person for Michael?
Paul Gongaware: I never was.
Q. You were never involved in that?

Paul Gongaware: no.
Q. Is a nutritional person a nutritionist to you, Sir?
A. I don't understand your distinction.
Q. Well, I’m asking you. Would you consider a nutritional person a nutritionist?
A. Not necessarily.
Q. Ok, so to you there's a difference between a nutritional person and nutritionist; is that right?
A. Well, I think we actually had a nutritional person at one time on the tour. He was charged with
making sure that Michael ate.
Q. Who was that, Sir?
A. David ... I can't remember his last name.
Q. Well, here, I’m going to show you this, another exhibit. Is that an email that you're involved
in, Sir? Have you seen that before, Mr. Gongaware?
A. I don't recall this one, but...
Q. Do you think that it's a forgery?
A. No, I don't think so.
Mr. Panish: Ok, let's put it up.
Q. Ok, and this is from you, Sir?
A. Yes.
Q. And what is the subject matter of that email?
A. Nutritionist and physical therapist.
Q. So that's you writing Mr. Ortega; right?
A. Yes.
Q. And you're telling Mr. Ortega on June 15th ... That's within 10 days of Mr. Jackson's death?
A. Ok, yes.
Q. We are on it. AEG owns major sports teams in this market, so we think we can find the right
people quickly. Paul g. Did I read that right?
A. Yes.

Q. And the right people were the nutritionists and the physical therapists; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And, Sir... Mr. Ortega was concerned about Michael Jackson’s health at this time, wasn't he?
A. I don't know. You'd have to ask him.
Q. Well, did you ... Strike the question. Mr. Ortega said, super…not a minute too soon. Let's turn
this guy around. Was he referring to Michael Jackson there, Sir?
A. Yes, I believe he was.
Q. So he felt Michael Jackson needed these specialists to turn him around; right?
A. That's what he says.
Q. And did you tell me you already had a nutritionist on board on June 15th, Sir?
A. I don't think we ... I don't think on June 15
th
we did.
Q. So you never had a nutritionist. When did you get the nutritionist that you just told me you
had, Sir?
A. I don't think he was a nutritionist, but he was a guy that was making sure that Michael ate.
Q. And that's the person whose name you couldn't remember?
A. David Loeffler.
Q. David Loeffler, that's Mr. Phillips' friend, isn't it, Sir?
A. I believe it is.
Q. That's who Mr. Phillips went to Mr. Jackson's house with and was on his way to his house, on
the day Michael Jackson died, isn't it, Sir?
A. I have no idea.
Q. Mr. Loeffler is the person that Mr. Phillips put in Mr. Jackson's dressing room, isn't he, Sir?
A. I don't know where he was.
Q. Well, tell me, what Mr. Loeffler is… Mr. Phillips' friend's background in nutrition, Sir?
A. I have no idea.
Q. Did he go to school and study it?
A. I have no idea.
Q. Did he work at a health food store?
AEG objection: lacks foundation; overruled. If he knows

A. I have no idea.
Q. Do you know anything about Mr. Loeffler's qualifications other than he was Randy
Phillips' good friend?
A. Well, he's a guy that has dealt with artists quite a bit.
Q. Artists in trouble?
A. Artists in general.
Q. Does he usually help artists eat?
A. I don't know what he does generally.
Q. Ok, but you just know he works with artists. Who told you that?
A. I've seen him around. I've seen him work with artists in the past.
Q. What artists have you seen him work with, Sir?
A. J-lo, Enrique Iglesias.
Q. Anyone else?
A. Those are the ones offhand.
Q. Does he work for AEG Live, Mr. Loeffler?
A. I don't know who employs him.
Q. Well, have you seen him at the AEG Live offices?
A. Yes.
Q. Have you seen him with Mr. Phillips often?
A. Yes.
Q. If Michael had his own doctor, what was the need for a nutritionist, Sir?
A. I don't know.
Q. Did you ask Mr. Ortega, why do we need a nutritionist?
A. No.
Q. When you said we are on it, who is we?
A. AEG
Q. AEG Live or is it AEG?
A. Probably AEG Live. But we would have used the resources of AEG

Q. Ok, so AEG Live was using the resources of AEG to get a nutritionist and physical therapy for
Michael Jackson for an unknown reason; correct?
A. Kenny asked for it.
Q. But you didn't know why?
A. No.
Q. Did you talk to Mr. Anschutz about that?
A. No.
Q. Did you talk to Mr. Leiweke about that?
A. I don't believe I asked Tim specifically, no.
Q. You were in contact with Mr. Leiweke during this time period, weren't you, Sir?
A. Yes.
Q. And Mr. Leiweke, he was the boss of Randy Phillips, wasn't he, Sir?
A. Yes.
Q. And he was the head of all of the AEG entities here in California, wasn't he, Sir?
A. Yes.
Q. And he reported directly to Mr. Anschutz, didn't he, Sir?
A. I have no idea how he reported.
Q. But, Mr. Leiweke was very involved in what was going on in This Is It, wasn't he, Sir?
A. I wouldn't say that.
Q. Ok, well, did you know that Mr. Phillips was emailing Mr. Leiweke when there were
problems with Mr. Jackson?
A. No.
Q. You never heard that before today?
A. I've heard offhand comments, but I didn't know it.
Q. Ok, did Mr. Phillips tell you that he was emailing Mr. Leiweke about problems with Mr.
Jackson?
A. No.
Q. Who told you?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Artists ... You would consider artists like athletes, wouldn't you, Sir?

A. In some sense.
Q. And they need the best care they can get, right, so they can perform?
A. Yes.
Q. And as you told us, your job was to get the show going; right?
A. Yes.
Q. Whatever it took; right?
A. Yes.
Q. And you told Dr. Murray, whatever you need to do, get this guy there so the show can go;
right, Sir?
A. Never told him that.
AEG objection: lacks foundation; overruled.
Q. I'm sorry, your answer was no?
A. Never told him that.
Q. Didn't you tell Dr. Murray, Sir...? That you wanted him to have everything he can to get the
show going?
A. I believe I told him that I wanted him to have everything he needed.
Q. Ok, and you didn't say anything like… I want you to have everything you need that's legal,
did you?
A. No.
Q. You made no distinction, did you?
A. No.
Q. Ok, now Sir...did you notice Michael Jackson was thin?
A. He's always been thin.
Q. Did you notice that he was thin at the This Is It rehearsals in the end, before he died, Sir?
A. I didn't notice that specifically, no. I didn't really see him much at the rehearsals.
Q. Exactly, you didn't see the last two days of how he was doing, did you, Sir?
A. I saw bits of it. I saw parts of it.
Q. How much did you watch on the 23rd?

A. I don't know on the 23rd. I remember ... I think on the last day we ran thriller, and it was the
first time we had costumes, so I went and watched that.
Q. And how long were you there on that day, Sir... Watching Mr. Jackson?
A. I think I watched thriller.
Q. And how long was that… five minutes?
A. It runs maybe ten.
Q. Ten… well, Sir... Isn't it true that you testified that you never saw Mr. Jackson much at all that
day because you were too busy doing other things?
A. I don't recall that testimony, but that's what happened.
Q. That's true, isn't it, Sir?
A. Yes.
Q. That you don't recall much of anything about the 24th because you spent much time ... Strike
the
Question. You didn't spend much of your time at the rehearsal on the 24th because you were busy
with other things; isn't that right, Sir?
A. I was at the rehearsal facility the whole time, but I wasn't out in the arena watching much.
Q. Ok, well, let's look at what you testified to, Sir... On the criminal trial of December 28th,
2011.
Mr. Panish: and let's look at the trial exhibit from that day. While your lawyer is looking at
that, when you say it means to be engaged, that means someone's focused; right. You told
me that earlier?
A. Yes, Sir.
Q. So you thought Mr. Jackson was focused on the last day; right?
A. From what I saw, yes.
Q. But you didn't watch...
Mr. Punish: all right. Let me just read it. Or do we have the video?
AEG objection: improper impeachment.
Judge: Ok, is it improper impeachment. Do we need to have a sidebar, he's a party; right?

Mr. Panish: yes. Why don't we come back to it? I don't want to waste time on the sidebar.
Q. That email I just showed you about Ms. Lewiston, Sir...
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know who Luigi Gratton was?
A. No.
Q. No… did I hear you right, Sir... You didn't know who that was?
A. No.
Mr. Panish: Ok, well let's play your testimony under oath in this case. And this is referring
to the exhibit that I just showed you.
Q. And who is Arlyne Lewiston?
Paul Gongaware: Randy’s assistant.
Q. And on June 17th, 2009, Arlyne Lewiston wrote, Carla says it's the same guy, Dr. Luigi
Gratton. You see that?
Paul Gongaware: yes.
Q. And then it looks like you, Paul Gongaware, responded to Arlyne Lewiston, he is also a
physical therapist. Do you see that, he is also a physical therapist?'
Paul Gongaware: I see that, yes.
Q. Ok, so there were you asking Ms. Lewiston if Dr. Luigi Gratton was also a physical
therapist?
Paul Gongaware: I don't know. I don't remember any of this.
Q. Ok now, if you go up to the first …the first page at the very bottom where there's an e-
mail from Paul Gongaware to Arlyne Lewiston sent June 17th … at the bottom of the page.
Paul Gongaware: got it.
Q. It says, we need a physical therapist and a nutritionist. Could be 2 different people. Is
that what that guy is; did I read that correctly?
Paul Gongaware: yes.
Q. Does that refresh your recollection that you were asking Ms. Lewiston if Dr. Gratton
was a therapist and nutritionist?
Paul Gongaware: No, I don't remember any of this.

Q. And then showing in the middle of the page, it looks like Ms. Lewiston was expressing
some confusion about what was being talked about, and you state… from Paul Gongaware
to Arlyne Lewiston, Wednesday, June 17th, 2009, 5:23 p.m., you wrote, this is for MJ. He
needs a nutritionist and a physical therapist. Do you see that?
Paul Gongaware: see it.
Q. Does that refresh your recollection that you were involved in trying to find Michael
Jackson a nutritionist?
Paul Gongaware: I don't recall any of this.
Q. In any of your other concert tours on which you worked in the producer role, have you
sought a nutritionist for the artist?
Paul Gongaware: in a producer role, no.
Q. In a… in a promoter role?
Paul Gongaware: I don't recall.
Q. So is that a no?
Paul Gongaware: I don't remember doing it.
Q. Ok, so you can't point to a time
Paul Gongaware: I can't remember a time when I did that.
Q. And that…can you point…can you point me to one, as you sit here today, when you were
a promoter and were looking for a nutritionist for an artist?
Paul Gongaware: no, I can't remember.
Q. Now, Sir... Somebody was concerned about Mr. Jackson's physical condition as of June 17th,
weren't they, Sir?
A. Yes.
Q. AEG Live was concerned about Mr. Jackson's physical condition on June 17th, weren't they,
Sir?
A. We were all concerned about his physical health and wellbeing, yes.
Q. Well, you were concerned enough on the 17th of June that you yourself, the CEO was going
out looking for a therapist and a nutritionist; correct?
A. I was responding to Kenny.
Q. Mr. Ortega, he was kind of the man in charge of everything at the show; right?
A. He was in charge of the creative, yes, with Michael.

Q. Well, he was the show director, wasn't he, Sir?
A. Yes.
Q. He was in charge of everything, wasn't he, Sir?
A. Well, everything to do with the show, yes.
Q. Well, you authorized Mr. Ortega, and you paid him to be in charge of everything about the
show, didn't you, Sir?
AEG objection: lacks foundation; overruled.
A. Certainly with the creative aspects of the show, yes.
Q. Was Michael a creative aspect of the show, Sir?
A. Yes.
Q. And there was no one from AEG Live other than Mr. Ortega that was at the rehearsals every
day being in charge, was there, Sir?
A. No.
Q. And you authorized Mr. Ortega to be in charge and take what steps he felt were necessary for
the show; right?
A. Yes, Sir.
Q. And you authorized him to be in charge of Michael Jackson’s health, didn't you, Sir?
A. Never discussed his health specifically and what he was authorized to do regarding his health,
but Kenny took that on.
Q. But, Sir... You said you were always concerned about Mr. Jackson's health; right?
A. Always concerned that he was healthy and happy, yes.
Q. You were always concerned, so you would have to have somebody at the rehearsal to take
care of those concerns, wouldn't you, Sir... If you're always concerned about it?
AEG objection: lacks foundation and argumentative; overruled.
A. Could you ask it again? I'm sorry.
Q. Sure, you were always concerned about Mr. Jackson's health, number 1 priority, wasn't it, Sir?

A. That's part of it.
Q. And as AEG Live, since it's the number 1 priority, and there's things going on every day, you
want somebody to be there addressing that issue, don't you, Sir?
A. Well, if there's a problem, we certainly want to address it.
Q. Well, do you have a person that's supposed to be there every single day?
A. That's there just to monitor his health?
Q. No, to be in charge of everything, including Mr. Jackson's health.
A. That would be Kenny.
Q. That was Mr. Ortega; right?
A. Yes.
Q. That was his job; right?
A. Part of it.
Q. And that's what you were paying him, among other things, to do, isn't it, Sir?
A. Yes.
Q. On behalf of AEG; correct?
A. And Michael Jackson.
Q. Do you think Kenny Ortega was lying to you, Sir?
A. No.
Q. Do you think Kenny Ortega was overreacting in his concerns about Michael Jackson’s health,
Sir?
A. Perhaps.
Q. So you think Kenny Ortega was overreacting when he kept raising concerns about Michael
Jackson’s health; is that right, Sir?
A. I was never concerned about Michael Jackson. I knew he was ... When the house lights went
out, he was going to be there and on.
Q. Sir... Can you answer my question?
A. Your question?
Mr. Panish: could I ask it be read back, please?
*Question is read back*

A. Um, overreacting, I don't know. I wasn't as concerned as he was.
Q. Did you think he was overreacting; that's what you said earlier.
A. Maybe a bit.
Q. Ok, he was right, wasn't he, Sir?
A. I wouldn't say that.
Q. Ok, but you never had a concern in the world about Mr. Jackson's health, did you, Sir?
A. There were a couple occasions where ... When problems arose, we dealt with them.
Q. Ok, well, Sir... I want to show you an exhibit. You've seen that before, haven't you, Sir?
A. Yes.
Q. In fact, Sir... You've gone over that a lot with your lawyers, haven't you, Sir?
A. We've gone over this.
Q. Trying to get your stories straight on it; right?
AEG objection: argumentative; sustained.
Q. Well, you were asked about this at your deposition under oath, weren't you, Sir?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you tell the truth at your deposition, Sir?
A. Yes.
Mr. Panish: Ok, I want to play a page from your deposition. Sir, I’m going to hand you
what we're marking as exhibit.
Q. Ok, Mr. Gongaware, I want to direct your attention to the middle of the first page where
it says, on Sunday, June 14th, 2009, at 4:11 p.m. Paul Gongaware,' and then your email
address wrote. Do you see that?
Paul Gongaware: yes.
Q. It says, frank and I have discussed it already and have requested a face-to-face meeting
with the doctor, hopefully Monday. We want to remind him that it is AEG, not MJ who is
paying his salary. We want him to understand what is expected of him. He has been
dodging frank so far. Did I read that correctly?

Paul Gongaware: yes.
Q. Did you write that email?
Paul Gongaware: I don't recall.
Q. Ok, now, underneath it, it says, Paul G. Is that how you normally sign off on emails?
Paul Gongaware: some of them, yes.
Q. So you have no recollection of sending this e-mail?
Paul Gongaware: no.
Q. Did you sign a declaration in this case that was filed in support of AEG Live's motion
for summary judgment?
Paul Gongaware: yes.
Q. Did you draft that declaration?
Paul Gongaware: no.
Q. You did not type it up, the declaration?
Paul Gongaware: no.
Q. Sir did you hand write it out and pass it on to someone?
Paul Gongaware: no.
Q. Did you orally dictate it so someone else could type it up?
Paul Gongaware: no.
Q. Did the lawyers write that and then give it to you?
Paul Gongaware: I don't know who wrote it, but I did see it.
Q. And did you read it before you signed it?
Paul Gongaware: sure, yes I did.
Q. And when did you do that?
Paul Gongaware: I don't know. I don't recall.
Q. So you've never seen this email before?
Paul Gongaware: no, I don't recall writing this email.

Mr. Putnam: and that was changed from, I don't recall writing this email to I don't recall
writing this email, but I did review the text of this email, with my attorneys for my
summary judgment declaration."
Q. So you changed that portion of the testimony; right, Sir?
A. Yes.
Q. You remembered that in your head from reading it, and drove over to your lawyers and
changed it; right?
A. I remember discussing it with my lawyers, yes.
Q. But you told me that you read the deposition, took no notes, and you remembered in your
head all the changes, and then you went to the lawyers and told them what changes you needed
to make; right?
A. Yes, Sir.
Q. And that was one of the changes you remembered in your head; right?
A. Yes.
Mr. Panish: continue, please.
Q. Do you recall signing a declaration where you discussed this email?
Paul Gongaware: no
Q. Now, let's go through what you wrote. Is your email paul@concertswest.com?
Paul Gongaware: yes
Q. Ok, sir…the email reads, frank and I have discussed it already, and we have requested a
face-to-face meeting with the doctor, hopefully Monday. Who is frank?
Paul Gongaware: it must have been frank Dileo.
Q. And frank Dileo is at some point was Mr. Jackson's manager?
Paul Gongaware: yes.
Q. Ok and the doctor…who was the doctor in that sentence, a face-to-face meeting with the
doctor'?
Paul Gongaware: I’m assuming it was Dr. Murray.
Q. And then it says, 'we want to remind him that it is age, not my who is paying his salary.
In that sentence, where it says age what were you referring to?
Paul Gongaware: I don't remember what I was referring to.

Q. Do you have any understanding what AEG means?
Paul Gongaware: well, AEG is AEG
Q. The company that you work for?
Paul Gongaware: yes.
Q. Ok, so when you say, we want to remind him that it is AEG, not MJ who is paying his
salary, you were referring to AEG paying Dr. Murray's salary, correct?
Paul Gongaware: I don't know what I was referring to in this. I don't remember it.
Q. Now, let's go on. After, we want to remind him that it is AEG not MJ, do you have any
understanding of who MJ is?
Paul Gongaware: I assume its Michael Jackson.
Q. Yeah, because it's capital m, capital j, correct?
Paul Gongaware: that's right.
Q. So we've figured out who AEG is… we've figured out who MJ is. Let's try to do this
sentence all in one swoop like this. Assuming that AEG is the company you work for and
assuming that MJ is Michael Jackson, I’m going to read this again and see if you have an
understanding of what it means. We want to remind him that it is AEG, not MJ who is
paying his salary. Based on the assumptions that AEG is your company and MJ is Michael
Jackson, do you have an understanding of what that means?
Paul Gongaware: no, I don't understand it, because we weren't paying his salary.
Q. So why would you write that?
Paul Gongaware: I have no idea.
Q. Now, let's go on to the next sentence. When you say his salary, who are you talking
about?
Paul Gongaware: I don't know.
Q. Oh, but how do you know you weren't paying his salary if you don't know who we're
talking about?
Paul Gongaware: I don't remember this email.
Q. Didn't you just testify that we weren't paying his salary?
Paul Gongaware: AEG?
Q. Yes… you just testified we weren't paying his salary. You just testified to that a few
seconds ago, right?
Paul Gongaware: I guess.

Q. Well, whose salary were you referring to; Dr. Murray's?
Paul Gongaware: yes.
Q. Ok, let's go on to the next sentence, we want him to understand what is expected of him.
Do you know what you meant there?
Paul Gongaware: no.
Q. Is there a word in that sentence that you don't understand?
Paul Gongaware: I don't understand the sentence.
Q. I'll read it again… we want him to understand what is expected of him. I'm going to put
in place of him what I think it's supposed to be and see if that helps. We want Dr. Murray
to understand what is expected of Dr. Murray. Does that help?
Paul Gongaware: no.
Q. Has anyone ever talked to you about this email before we talked to you about it today?
Paul Gongaware: no.
Q. Now, Mr. Gongaware, since your deposition, how much time have you spent going over that
email?
A. Spent some time on it.
Q. How much time have you spent going over that email, Sir?
A. I'd say an hour or two.
Q. An hour or two on that one email?
A. Yes.
Q. And who did you meet with when you spent an hour or two going over that email after you
testified about it under oath?
A. Well, I spent some of the time myself just looking at this, putting it in context with all the rest
of the documents that I had. And then I did discuss it with my attorneys.
Q. How much time did you spend going over this with your attorneys?
A. An hour or two.
Q. So that's in addition to the time ... How much time did you spend on your own?
A. I think its total time, an hour or two.
Q. And in the hour or two that you met with the attorneys, did your memory get refreshed about
this email, Sir?

A. Well, when I put everything together and looked at it, my memory did get refreshed in the
sense that I can recall what I was thinking, what was on my mind at the time?
Q. Ok, so after meeting with your lawyers and going over this email for an hour or two, they
were able to refresh your memory about what you meant back on June 9th ... June 14th, 2009; is
that right?
AEG objection: misstates testimony and is argumentative; overruled.
A.. I did come to the conclusions, I think, a lot of it on my own… when I read it, and I did
discuss it with my attorneys.
Q. Could you please ... If my question is unclear, I apologize. Let me try again. First of all, when
you spent an hour or two reading this, did you ever change your testimony under oath in this
regard, Sir?
A. No, this was after all that.
Q. Was there some time limit on which you knew you could change your testimony, Sir?
A. I think so.
Q. What was that?
A. After the deposition is set and all the rest of the answers went in.
Q. What was the time limit that you knew that you had to change?
A. I don't know if there was a time limit. I just assumed there was.
Q. Well, did you say, I’d like to change my testimony under oath about this?
A. No.
Q. Ok, so what my question was, Sir... Do you know what it means to have your recollection
refreshed?
A. I don't know what specifically you're referring to.
Q. Ok, well do you have an understanding of that term, Sir?
AEG objection: asks for a legal conclusion, your honor; overruled.
A. Um, yeah... To remember things that you ... After you go through them, remember things in
context.

Q. Well, have you heard of the concept of repressed memory, Sir?
A. I don't know what that is.
Q. Never heard of that?
A. I don't know what that is.
Q. Have you ever heard of when somebody doesn't remember anything for three or four years,
and then they have some psychotherapy, and then they can remember it, have you ever heard of
that?
A. No.
Q. Ok, you didn't have any psychotherapy to remember what you wrote here, did you, Sir?
AEG objection: it's asking for his personal information. It has no relevance to this;
overruled.
A. No.
Q. You didn't, like get ... What do they say ... Put to sleep?
Judge: Hypnotized?
Mr. Panish: Thank you.
Q. You didn't get hypnotized to see if you could remember this, did you?
A. No.
Q. The only thing you did to remember this four years later was to meet with your attorneys;
right, Sir?
A. No, I reviewed it on my own as well.
Q. Ok, what did you review on your own. Did you see any documents to refresh your
recollection about what you wrote here?
A. I think the ... All of the documents started to, you know, help me recall what was on my mind.
Q. Do you remember that you did write it now, Sir?
A. I still don't recall writing it.
Q. Ok, so do you remember, did you write it, or didn't you write it?

A. I don't recall writing it, but obviously I did.
Q. Do you admit you wrote it; let’s start there.
A. Yes. I believe I wrote it.
Q. You admit those are your words?
A. Yes.
Q. You admit that AEG is your boss?
A. Yes.
Q. You admit that MJ is Michael Jackson?
A. Yes.
Q. You admit that Dr. Murray is who you're referring to as the doctor; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And you admit that Dr. Murray is who you want to understand what's expected of him;
correct, Sir?
A. Yes.
Q. And if we could go ... Do you know who you wrote this email to, Sir?
A. To Kenny and Frank.
Q. Kenny Ortega, the person that was charged with the responsibility for AEG Live to look after
Michael Jackson’s health, among other things; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And you wanted Mr. Ortega and Mr. Dileo to know and tell them what's expected of Dr.
Murray; right?
A. I think what I was referring to...
Q. Sir... Can you answer my question. Let me rephrase it. If you don't understand my question,
Sir... Just let me know. Can you answer the questions that I ask; is there any problem with that?
A. No problem at all.
Q. Ok, now when you said, I want him to understand what's expected of him, you're referring to
Dr. Murray, and what was expected of Dr. Murray; correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And this was five weeks after you had agreed with Dr. Murray that he was going to get paid
150,000 a month, and you were going to provide additional medical support to him; correct?
A. We did talk about Dr. Murray's salary, but a deal was never consummated.

Q. Sir... Did you say, done at 150 after you talked to Dr. Murray?
A. That was an email to Michael Jackson, informing him that the compensation part of the deal
had been discussed.
Q. Well, Sir... Did you say to Dr. Murray, we will pay you 150,000 a month?
A. No, I said that I was authorized to offer him 150,000 a month by the artist.
Q. And did he say he accepts?
A. He accepted.
Q. And then Mr. Woolley was drafting up a contract for AEG Live with Dr. Murray; right?
A. I believe so.
Q. And no one from Michael Jackson’s camp was involved in any of the drafting of the
documents, were they, Sir?
AEG objection: lacks foundation; overruled.
A. I don't know who was involved in that.
Q. Ok, but you tasked Mr. Woolley with that responsibility, didn't you, Sir?
A. Yes.
Q. Ok, now when you say, remind, what does that mean to you, to remind someone of
something, in general?
A. I think it's obvious. To remind them.
Q. To make sure they know; right?
A. To remind them, yes.
Q. And were you concerned that Dr. Murray needed to be reminded of what was expected of him
by AEG?
A. I don't know. I think Dr. Murray knew what his responsibilities were. His responsibility was to
take care of his patient.
Q. Well, then why did you have to remind him, Sir...if you felt dr. Murray knew what his
responsibilities were, then you wrote an email that he needed to be reminded because you
thought he'd forgotten, didn't you, Sir?
A. This email is like shorthand between me and frank and Kenny. I was going through hundreds
of emails a day. And if I would ... You know, I may have ... If I knew lawyers four years later
were picking apart every word, I might have been more careful in choosing my words. But,

essentially, I think what I’m saying here is I’m referring to Kenny’s email when I’m answering it.
Kenny was talking about a nutritionist, a physical therapist, and those kinds of things, and I think
that's what I was referring to.
Q. Well, Dr. Murray, was he a nutritionist, Sir?
A. I think a doctor should be.
Q. Was Dr. Murray a nutritionist, Sir?
A. I would think that's part of a doctor's training, yes.
Q. But you went to get someone else to be the nutritionist, not Dr. Murray, who had agreed to
accept 150,000 a month; correct?
A. Well, we were looking for one at Kenny’s request, yes.
Q. Because Dr. Murray wasn't competent to do that, was he, Sir?
A. I would think he was.
Q. But you went and got another one anyway, didn't you, Sir or you tried?
A. I think we looked for one, yes.
Q. Because Kenny Ortega and you didn't feel Dr. Murray was competent to do that job at
150,000 a month, did you, Sir?
AEG objection: lacks foundation; overruled.
A. I certainly feel like Dr. Murray should have been competent to do that.
Q. But you didn't even know anything about his qualifications, did you, Sir?
A. He's a doctor.
Q. You didn't even know what kind of doctor he was, did you, Sir?
A. Nutrition is a basic part of health.
Q. Well, if you've got a doctor you're paying 150,000 a month, I don't understand why you had to
go get another person to be a nutritionist.
AEG objection: lacks foundation, argumentative. That's not a question; sustained.
Q. Could you please tell us, Sir... Why you needed a nutritionist when you had already engaged a
doctor at 150,000 a month?
A. Kenny had asked for one.
Q. Did you say, why do we need one, we have a doctor at 150,000 a month?

A. No, I didn't say that.
Q. Didn't you think, as you told us earlier, that Mr. Ortega was overreacting a little?
A. Maybe a little.
Q. Did you ever tell him, Kenny, you're overreacting?
A. I don't recall that specifically.
Q. Mr. Phillips told him, don't worry. Everything's going to be Ok, didn't he, Sir?
A. I don't know what Mr. Phillips told him.
Q. Mr. Phillips told him that we check out everyone, like Dr. Murray; right?
A. I don't know what he told him.
Q. You wrote ... Is this just a mistake, another mistake that you made, Sir?
A. You know, I don't necessarily think it was a mistake. This was just in the normal course of
business going through a lot of different things.
Q. It says AEG was paying Dr. Murray.
A. Well, if Michael Jackson would have signed the contract, and if Michael Jackson would have
instructed us to pay him, we would have paid him.
Q. Did you say that in the email, or does it say here ... We want to remind him it's AEG, not MJ,
who, if he signs the contract, and everyone signs, we're going to pay Dr. Murray. Did you say
that, Sir... Did I misread?
A. No, Sir. I was running in shorthand. I didn't believe I needed to say that.
Q. You said, we want to remind him that it's AEG, not MJ who is paying him. Did you say that,
Sir?
A. That's what I wrote.
Q. Did you ever change that, Sir...Before today?
A. No, Sir.
Q. Let's go down below. Mr. Ortega was still concerned on June 14
th
about Mr. Jackson not
coming to rehearsals, wasn't he, Sir?
A. That's what his email says.
AEG objections: lacks foundation; overruled.
Q. You wrote right here, Sir... Didn't you. Is this written to you by Kenny Ortega?

A. Yes.
Q. And he's reminding you of something, isn't he, Sir?
A. That's part of what he had to say.
Q. He's reminding you ... And then he goes on to say, were you aware, Paul, that MJ’s doctor
didn't permit him to attend rehearsal yesterday. Were you aware of that, Sir?
A. No, I wasn't.
Q. You were aware when you got that email, weren't you?
A. Yeah. He made me aware of it.
Q. You read that, didn't you, Sir?
A. Yes.
Q. And you were concerned, too, weren't you?
A. Michael didn't like to rehearse. And if he didn't go to rehearsal, that didn't really surprise me.
He didn't go to rehearsals in his history of not rehearsing.
Q. Well, did you tell that to Dr. Murray? Hey, don't worry about it. We know Michael doesn't go
to rehearsals. Did you say that to Dr. Murray or anyone else when you wrote that other email?
A. No.
Q. Did you ... You were having cold sweats every night about this, weren't you, Sir?
A. No, Sir.
Q. You were never having cold sweats about this?
A. No, Sir.
Q. Well, let's take a look, Sir... At this exhibit. You know what a cold sweat is?
A. It's a term.
Q. A. Term you ever used?
A. Yeah.
Q. Who is Carla?
A. Let's see what it says. Ah... Carla is Tim Leiweke's assistant.
Q. The CEO of the company?
A. Yes.
Q. Ok, did you write this email, Sir?
A. I believe I did.

Q. Ok, let's look at it. This is May 5th; right?
A. Yes.
Q. The day before, you wrote that email about Dr. Murray, done at 150; right?
A. Ok
Q. And you're telling Carla to pray for you; right?
A. Yes.
Q. You were having a rough time here on this MJ situation, weren't you, Sir?
A. Actually, no. This is ... I was joking in this email. Carla is an absolute babe, and I was just
kind of chatting her up.
Q. Ok, so you were trying to have a relationship with her?
A. No, I was just chatting with her.
Q. Ok, well Sir... Here's what you said, pray for me, this is a nightmare. You were joking about
that; right?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. And you were joking, not coincidentally… I have them now every night. Cold sweats, too…
life used to be so much fun. Did you have a girlfriend at this time, Sir?
A. I don't know. I don't think so.
Q. You didn't have a girlfriend that was working with you?
A. Maybe I did, yeah. Yes, maybe.
Q. So...
A. But I wasn't trying to necessarily hit on her. I was just chatting her up. I don't have cold
sweats. I don't have nightmares. I sleep great.
Q. So you were just lying to her so she would like you?
A. Well...
Q. Or feel sorry for you?
A. If you want to call it a lie, that's what you're saying. I wouldn't call it that.
Q. Ok, you would just call it, what… a white lie?
A. No… just playing around, joking…
Q. You tell people to pray for you as a joke?
A. I did there.

Q. Sir... You were concerned about when the dates the concert was ever going to start; that's what
started these emails, wasn't it, Sir?
AEG objection: lacks foundation, argumentative; overruled.
A. Well, it was about, yes…we were changing some dates at this time.
Q. And you were concerned. You didn't know when the dates were going to be opening night, did
you, Sir?
A. At this time I think we were in discussions in trying to figure it out.
Q. Well, you said, in response to Carla ... Does Carla still work for AEG, Sir?
A. Yes.
Q. Still chat her up?
A. When I can.
Q. What does your girlfriend say about that…you tell her that and she didn't come here today;
right?
A. Um, I didn't really discuss it with my girlfriend.
Q. Ok, it says, can you confirm confidentially that opening night will now take place December
14
th
. I keep hearing it's the 15th. Tim says the 14th. Did I read that right?
A. Yes.
Q. And then you say, maybe 13th, may be 17th, not 14th. I'll know more this week. Michael
never showed up today so I couldn't discuss it with him. Is that for a rehearsal he didn't show up
for that day, Sir?
AEG objection: misstates what the document states. Judge: which portion of it? AEG:
December.
Mr. Panish: well, if I did say December, I meant to say whatever it says, July.
Q. Did you say, Michael never showed up today?
A. Yes, in the email.
Q. Is that rehearsal again?
A. It would have been a rehearsal, yes.

Q. And then you write back; right?
AEG objection: misstates; overruled.
A. That's what I said.
Q. This is the same time you were conversing with dr. Murray to make the deal, isn't it, Sir?
A. Never did make a deal with him, but we did discuss his compensation.
Q. All right.
LUNCH BREAK…..
Continued direct examination
By Mr. Panish:
Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Gongaware.
A. good afternoon, sir.
Q. Did you get to review any documents over lunch?
A. no.
Q. Get your memory refreshed at all?
A. about the same.
Q. Pardon me?
A. it's about the same.
Q. Ok, great. So let's go back where we left off on your email that we were talking about. I just
had a few more questions I wanted to ask you about it, sir. Ok, now, when you say ... If we can
go to Mr. Gongaware's email. This was ... By the way, this was on June 14
th
, right. 4:00 o'clock
in the afternoon. And this is where you're talking about the face-to-face meeting with the doctor,
right?
A. yes.
Q. And when it's Frank and I, that means ... I is Paul, right?

A. yes.
Q. So you had requested a face-to-face meeting with the doctor, right?
A. I think Frank specifically did it; but I wrote it that way, yes.
Q. You wanted to meet face-to-face with the doctor, didn't you, sir?
A. sure.
Q. Is that a yes?
A. that's a yes.
Q. Ok, and one of the reasons that you wanted to meet with the doctor was to remind him that
AEG was paying him, not Michael Jackson, correct?
A. what I ... What I was really wanting to meet with him about was what Kenny was referring to
in his email, and what I was answering, which was nutritionist, nourishment, vitamins, therapy,
that kind of stuff.
Q. Did Kenny say anything about who was paying the doctor?
A. no.
Q. You wrote that you ... We want to remind the doctor that we're paying his salary, correct?
A. that's what I wrote, but the fact is we would have been paying his salary if Michael would
have instructed us to.
Q. Sir... You wrote ... You wanted to remind him that you were paying his salary, right? Is that
what you wrote?
A. yes.
Q. And would you agree ... Strike that. Do you go to other employees of yours and tell their
doctor that they're not paying them, that you are? Have you ever done that before, sir?
AEG objection: your honor; lacks foundation as to employee.
Judge: I think it's a little unintelligible. Maybe ... Rephrase it.

Q. Mr. Trell, does he work for AEG Live?
A. yes, sir.
Q. Do you ever go to Mr. Trell and say, hey, Mr. Trell ... Or talk to Mr. Trell's doctor and tell his
doctor that you're paying him, not Mr. Trell?
A. no, I’ve never met Mr. Trell's doctor.
Q. Ok, how many people's doctors have you gone to tell them that you're paying them, not them?
A. none, and I didn't even do it with Dr. Murray.
Q. Well, we're going to get to that, sir. You also ... Well, you would agree it could be a conflict of
interest ... Strike the question. It's been AEG's position that Dr. Murray was Mr. Jackson's
personal doctor. You've told us that, right?
A. yes.
Q. Ok, and could you tell us why you wanted to tell Mr. Jackson's personal doctor that AEG was
paying him, not Michael Jackson?
A. I don't know.
Q. And, sir, you would agree that could be a conflict of interest, if you're trying to tell someone's
personal doctor how ... What is expected of them. Wouldn't you agree with that, sir?
AEG objection: your honor; calls for a legal conclusion; overruled.
A. your question again, sir?
Q. Sure, you wanted to remind the doctor that you were paying his salary and to understand what
you expected of him, right…that's what you wrote?
A. well, what I expected of him was to take care of his patient.

Q. Ok, why are you telling someone's personal doctor what's expected of them, sir. That's what I
want to know.
A. I never did tell him.
Q. Ok, why are you writing that AEG needs to tell someone's personal doctor what their ...
Expected of them if you weren't controlling the doctor?
A. well, we certainly weren't controlling the doctor.
Q. But you wrote you wanted to tell the doctor what's expected of him who you claim is Michael
Jackson's personal doctor, right?
A. we expected him to take care of his patient.
Q. Why did you need ... Why did he need to know that; was there a problem with Mr. Jackson,
sir?
A. no, not that I know of.
Q. Well, why are you going to remind somebody of what they're supposed to do if there's no
problem and they're doing their job?
A. don't know.
Q. You usually remind people of things when they're not doing it, don't you, sir?
A. sure.
Q. You don't need to remind somebody about something if they're doing it, do you, sir?
A. I don't know.
Q. Do you go around reminding people of what their job duties are when they're doing them?
A. no, not necessarily, no.
Q. When you go remind somebody of something, it's because they're not doing what they're
supposed to; isn't that right, sir?
AEG objection: lacks foundation; overruled.
A. that's a reasonable assumption.

Q. Now, just so I’m clear, you told us ... Or me, this morning that after your deposition and all
these meetings, you laid out all the documents, and that refreshed your recollection, right?
A. yes.
Q. But the only documents you reviewed were the ones attached to your deposition, right?
A. yes.
Q. So there were only 20 some exhibits to your deposition, so you didn't take anything new that
you didn't have at your deposition to refresh your recollection, did you, sir?
A. no.
Q. And you didn't ask the lawyers or anyone else for all the other emails and documents to help
you refresh your recollection, did you?
A. well, there were thousands of those; and I wasn't going to get into that.
Q. There were thousands… how do you know that, sir?
A. I wrote thousands of emails over the course of this ... Of this job.
Q. Well, sir, you said thousands. You wrote thousands of emails about this is it; is that right, sir?
Because you didn't produce thousands of emails from you.
A. well, it's a guess. I mean ... But quite a few.
Q. Well, how many were there, sir?
A. I have no idea.
Q. Ok, so you don't know ... You didn't ask the lawyers for any documents to review that we
didn't show you at your deposition, did you, sir?
A. those are the ones I wanted to see.
Q. Just the ones at the deposition?
A. yeah.
Q. But if you wanted to know the whole story, you would have asked for more documents,
wouldn't you, sir?
A. if I would have had the time, that would have been a great luxury.

Q. So you're too busy to deal with this… is that what you're telling us?
A. no, sir, I don't think I’m saying that. I mean, I’m taking this very seriously. I'm being sued
for billions of dollars personally.
Q. Billions?
A. billions, yes, sir.
Q. You know that, it's billions?
A. yes, sir.
Q. Ok, how many billions is it, sir?
A. I don't know, but it's billions.
Q. Who told you that?
A. my attorney.
Q. Your attorney?
AEG objection, your honor. Judge: let's not talk about the attorney.
Q. Sir, you know Michael Jackson could have earned billions of dollars, don't you, sir?
A. I don't believe that's the case.
Q. Did you testify that Michael Jackson was going to go on a world tour, and that was the plan,
after this was finished?
A. yeah, but as I recall those numbers and they were very preliminary projections, it was 132
million that he would have earned.
Q. Do you know how much money Michael Jackson could earn in the future, sir?
A. no one could know that.
Q. Ok, so sir, you take this so serious that you never asked to see Dr. Murray's contract, right?
A. that's correct.

Q. And you take it so serious that you didn't ask to see any other documents other than what was
at your deposition because you didn't have time for that. Isn't that what you just told me?
A. yes, sir.
Q. Because you were too busy trying to earn money for AEG than doing preparation for your
deposition; isn't that true, sir?
AEG objection: argumentative and irrelevant, your honor; overruled.
A. I spent as much time as I could prepping.
Q. Because you were too busy working for AEG, right, sir?
A. yes, I’m currently on tour with the rolling stones.
Q. So it's more important to you and AEG that you continue to do your job than prepare under
oath to give testimony in this case, correct?
A. I think both are quite important to me.
Q. Ok, but you didn't spend any time, you told us, only two days, and part of two days, to
prepare. Didn't you tell us that, sir?
A. I don't think that's what I said.
Q. You didn't tell us you spent two days preparing for your deposition?
A. I think I said more than that.
Q. Ok, but sir… the reason you couldn't spend more time is because you were too busy working
for AEG, right?
A. I was working, yes.
Q. Ok, since you spent more than two days preparing for your deposition, tell us everything you
did for those more than two days you spent preparing.

AEG objection: I object as going into attorney/client privilege. Judge: it may, but I think
you've asked this question before. Mr. Panish: well, I don't want to argue with the court.
Let me rephrase the question.
Q. What was it, sir that let you think that you had the right to tell the doctor to show up to a
meeting, Mr. Jackson's personal doctor?
A. I never told the doctor to show up at a meeting.
Q. Didn't you request that he show up for a meeting?
A. we requested a meeting.
Q. Ok, ok… how many other people that you've been promoting concerts for and producing
concerts have you told their doctor to come to a face-to-face meeting?
A. none that I recall.
Q. Did you think you had the right to request Mr. Jackson's doctor ... To demand that he come to
a face-to-face meeting with you?
A. I don't think I could have demanded it. I think requesting a meeting is not out of the order.
Q. Ok, did you tell anyone when you were going to a meeting to bring the doctor with them?
A. I did in one email.
Q. Ok, what gave you the right to tell someone to bring the doctor with them?
A. I don't think I had any right to do that; but his health was going to be discussed at that
meeting, and I thought it appropriate that his doctor be there when all that stuff was being talked
about.
Q. So you could talk to the doctor about his health, right?
A. I wasn't at that meeting.
Q. No.
Sir, you told someone, bring the doctor with you to the meeting, didn't you, sir?
A. yes, I did.

Q. You told that to your boss, Randy Phillips, didn't you?
A. suggested it.
Q. Did you say, I suggest you bring the doctor with you?
A. well, when you talk to your boss, you ... It's a suggestion.
Q. Ok, well let's ... Let's go and take a look at your suggestion, sir. That would be this exhibit
here... And we're going to come back to it. But just to refresh your recollection. So let's see how
you suggested to your boss to bring the doctor. Ok?
A. do I have that one here?
Q. Well, this is one of the ones that you reviewed with your lawyers, isn't it, sir?
A. I don't know.
Q. Did you write some of these emails, sir?
A. just give me a second, please, sir.
Q. Sure, didn't you just review that with your lawyer, sir?
AEG objection: misstates prior testimony; sustained.
Q. Well, haven't you reviewed that in the last two days with your lawyer, sir?
AEG objection; misstates prior testimony; overruled.
A. this one in the last two days, no, I haven't.
Q. Ok, you wrote that email, part of it, didn't you, sir?
A. I wrote one of them in this chain, it appears.
Q. Ok, well let's put it up and let's take a look at what ... How you suggested to your boss to
invite the doctor. Could you read for us how you told Randy Phillips ... How you suggested to
Randy Phillips to bring the doctor?
A. take the doctor with you. Why wasn't he there last night?

Q. Ok, is that take the doctor ... Is that a suggestion, maybe you should take the doctor, or is that
a command?
A. I don't think it's a command.
Q. Did you ask for Michael Jackson's permission to take the doctor with you?
A. no, I believe Michael was going to be at the meeting.
Q. When you ... Why wasn't he there last night…that's the doctor, right?
A. that's what I was referring to, yes.
Q. Why is the doctor supposed to be at rehearsal?
A. well, this was talking about they had a problem at the rehearsal that night and ... With
Michael, and he's supposed to be treating his patient. If there's a problem, he should have been
there.
Q. Oh, so the doctor is supposed to be 24/7 on call for 150,000 a month, right?
AEG objection: misstates prior testimony, lacks foundation; overruled if he knows.
A. again, sir?
Q. The doctor is supposed to be 24/7 available to treat Mr. Jackson at 150,000 a month, correct?
AEG objection: lacks foundation; overruled.
A. it appears that Michael was sick that night, so where was the doctor, is my question.
Q. Well, you expected him to be there, right?
A. if he’s...
Q. You're controlling him?
A. no, I wasn't controlling him; but if he's sick, that's his patient. Why wouldn't he be there?
Q. Well, why are you telling Mr. Phillips, the CEO, to take the doctor with you to a meeting?
A. the meeting was going to be with Michael and was going to be about ... I guess the illness he
had that night.

Q. But you say take him with you. You didn't say maybe you should call the doctor, see if he's
available, did you?
A. didn't say that.
Q. If you said… I would suggest it would be good if the doctor attended this meeting. Wouldn't
that be some suggestion, sir?
AEG objection: argumentative; sustained.
Q. Was Mr. Phillips picking the doctor up in his car, sir?
AEG objection: lacks foundation; overruled.
A. I have no idea.
Q. Well, when you take someone with you, does that suggest to you that you're taking them with
you, like together?
A. it doesn't suggest that to me.
Q. Ok, Dr. Murray, he was in charge of getting Mr. Jackson to rehearsal, wasn't he, sir?
A. he was in charge of Michael Jackson's health and taking care of Michael Jackson.
Q. He was in charge of getting Michael Jackson to rehearsal, wasn't he, sir?
A. I don't believe that's the case.
Q. Ok, did you know that Mr. Woolley told Lloyd’s of London that Mr. Phillips and Dr. Murray
were in charge of Michael Jackson being at rehearsal?
AEG objection: lacks foundation, misstates the prior document; overruled.
A. well, if Mr. Woolley said that, he was mistaken.
Q. Another mistake that was made. Did Mr. Woolley make a lot of mistakes in this case, sir, to
your knowledge?

A. I don't think so.
Q. Ok, what other mistakes did he make, to your knowledge?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Ok, now sir let’s look at this email you wrote was on June 14th, correct? The email that we
went over earlier was June 14th, when you're saying, you know… to remind him who pays him,
that email?
A. yes.
Q. Ok, so now, Mr. Jackson dies 11 days later, right?
A. yes.
Q. Ok, so let's look now at another exhibit, which is an exhibit is in the deposition, a two-page
document. You've seen that before, right?
A. yeah, I think we were just talking about this one.
Q. Not the whole thing, sir. We're getting to the whole thing. Did you write that email… let's
put it up first and let's go over it. Let's go to the second and this is to… I think you called him
Hougdahl.
A. Hougdahl.
Q. Ok, because I’ve been calling him Hougdahl. It's Hougdahl, right?
A. yes, sir.
Q. Also known as Bugsy, right?
A. right.
Q. Now we're five days later after an email where you said tell the doctor what's expected of
him, right?
A. five days after that email.
Q. Right, are you with me?
A. I’m with you.
Q. Ok, and what is the subject of that email?
A. trouble at the front.
Q. What is the front, sir?

A. I don't know specifically what he's talking about. I think it's just trouble that he was having
that day.
Q. The front is the ... The show, isn't it, sir?
A. yes, probably.
Q. And Mr. Hougdahl was at the practice every day, wasn't he, sir. Or rehearsal, as you called it,
right?
A. yes.
Q. And he's someone that you told us yesterday would be very knowledgeable about how Mr.
Jackson was doing, correct?
A. I believe he would be.
Q. Certainly more than you and Mr. Phillips, correct?
A. definitely more than me.
Q. Well, definitely more than Mr. Phillips because he wasn't going to all the rehearsals, either,
was he?
A. he wasn't at all of them.
Q. He wasn't there very often, was he, sir?
A. we'd see him around occasionally, but he wasn't there every day.
Q. And Mr. Hougdahl was writing to you ... Two CEOs, yourself and Mr. Phillips, correct?
A. yes.
Q. And you know what a drama queen is, right?
A. I believe so, yes.
Q. And Mr. Ortega was the man in charge at the scene, acting on behalf of AEG Live, correct?
A. well, he was the director of the show.
Q. He was getting paid by AEG Live, correct?
A. he did get paid by AEG, yes.
Q. His job was to be there every day. You told us that this morning, what his job duties were,
right?
AEG objection: your honor…; overruled.

A. his job was to help Michael create the show and execute that.
Q. You mentioned part of his job was to make sure he was okay and healthy, right?
AEG objection: misstates prior testimony; overruled.
A. well, he was ... You know, that's one of the things he was concerned about, yes.
Q. Ok, it was one of his duties?
AEG objection: misstates prior testimony; overruled.
A. one of his concerns was to be concerned about all of those things, including that, yes.
Q. So that's a yes?
A. well, no. I mean, not necessarily. I mean, if ... Ultimately ... What was your question again,
please?
Q. Fair enough, one of the things or duties that Mr. Ortega had was to make sure that Mr.
Jackson was doing okay health wise, correct?
A. he did monitor his health.
Q. Ok, and Mr. Ortega told Bugsy to write this email to you and to Mr. Phillips, the two CEOs,
right?
A. that's what he says.
Q. Ok, well did Mr. Hougdahl ... You consider him to be an honest and trustworthy person, don't
you, sir?
A. I do.
Q. And before this, Mr. Hougdahl was telling you that you should get Michael some brats and
beers and fill him up, right?
A. I don’t...
Q. When was the meeting with Dr. Murray after that email on the 14
th
; was it on that Monday, the
16th?
A. I only had one meeting with Dr. Murray, and I don't recall specifically when it was. I think
we talked about that yesterday.

Q. You wrote the email about the meeting with Dr. Murray on a Monday. And we know that
Friday was the 19th, so Monday would have been the 14th, right?
AEG objection: misstates the document. Judge: why don't we show him?
Q. Does your email usually print out the wrong days, sir, to your knowledge, ever?
A. it's usually on.
Q. Ok, if Friday is the 19th, what day is Monday, maybe you could tell me.
A. 15th.
Q. 15th. Very good and you wrote your email on Sunday the 14th, right?
A. um...
Q. What date did you write it on?
A. it was the 14th.
Q. And you say in that email you got a meeting on Monday with the doctor face to face, right?
A. no, it just says it was requested.
Q. For Monday?
A. hopefully on Monday.
Q. Ok, what date was that meeting?
A. I don't know that that meeting ever took place.
Q. Ok, so that email that you sent, nothing happened then, no meetings until the 19th when this
occurred. Is that your testimony?
AEG objection: misstates prior testimony; overruled.
A. well, I only know that I had one meeting with Dr. Murray. I'm just not sure of the date. It
could have been there, I think it was earlier, but there was ... I only had one meeting with him.
Q. What I would like to know is, between the time of your email on June 14th and the time of
this email, trouble at the front, June 19th, can you tell us that there was any meeting with Dr.
Murray?
A. I don't know.

Q. Ok, so now we know that Mr. Jackson was sent home on the 19th without stepping foot on the
stage, correct?
A. that's what Kenny's email said. I was out of town.
Q. I'm just asking you about the email. All right?
A. uh-huh.
Q. Why don't you just read it, what he said to you?
A. Paul, Randy… I’m not being a drama queen here. Kenny asked me to notify you both. MJ
was sent home without stepping foot onstage. He was a basket case, and Kenny was concerned
he would embarrass himself onstage or worse yet, get hurt. The company is rehearsing right
now, but the doubt is pervasive. Time to circle the wagons.
Q. What does time to circle the wagons mean to you, sir?
A. I don't know.
Q. And Mr. Hougdahl, he was being paid by AEG, correct?
A. yes.
Q. And doubt is pervasive, what does that mean, sir?
A. I have no idea.
Q. Do you know what pervasive means?
A. I think I know what it means. If you want me to explain what it means, I’m not sure I could
do that; but I think it means there's a lot of it.
Q. A. lot of it. It's all around. How about that?
A. that's good.
Q. Doubt was all around for the company in the rehearsal about the show. Would that be a fair
reading of that?
A. yeah, ok
Q. And, sir… did you respond to that email?
A. no. I was out of town.

Q. Well, you were responding to emails when you were out of town by your ... By your ... What
do you call that… a PDA, right. Do you know what that is?
A. I think that's what they used to call them before they called them smart phones.
Q. Ok, did you have one?
A. I had something. I don't remember what it was.
Q. Blackberry?
A. might have been.
Q. Do you have one now?
A. I have an iPhone now.
Q. Ok, but you ... You're the kind of person that ... Your job is 24/7 when you're in this concert
business, right?
A. yes.
Q. And this says you responded via USA mobile; is that like a PDA?
A. it's my mobile phone.
Q. Ok, and can we put the other one up so we can see the timing now. So you get this email
when you're out of town; it's sent to you at about 10:14 in the night?
A. right, and I was back east at a wedding, so it could have come in at...
Q. 1:00 in the morning?
A. yeah.
Q. But you woke up bright and early, 5:59 a.m., right? At least you were up enough to write an
email?
A. probably would have been like 8:59 east coast time.
Q. All right, hold on…. Ok, so now we're at 12:36 a.m. And then Mr. Phillips is responding to
that email from Bugsy, right?
A. yes.
Q. And it says Bugsy, I know because I just got Kenny's message on my VM. I assume that
means voicemail.

A. I assume so.
Q. What did he do, when he got there and what happened between him and KO. I assume that
means Mr. Ortega, right?
A. I believe so.
Q. And then Mr. Phillips says I have a meeting with MJ tomorrow morning, which would
probably be June 20th, because this was sent at June 20th at 12:36 a.m., right?
A. yes.
Q. Ok, so he's talking about that same day, later in the morning, he has a ... A. meeting with Mr.
Jackson, correct?
A. I think so, yeah.
Q. Ok, then Mr. Hougdahl responds ... Actually, why don't you read that for us. Because you
received that, right?
A. I was copied.
Q. Is that a yes?
A. yes, sir.
Q. Ok, thank you. If you could read that, please.
A. MJ came out and watched all the pyro demonstration, endorsed all of the effects, then went
into his room and asked Kenny, you aren't going to kill the artist are you? We assumed this was a
reference to pyro, but Kenny said he was shaking and couldn't hold his knife and fork. Kenny
had to cut his food for him before he could eat, and then he had to use his fingers ... I don't know
how much embellishment there is to this, but Kenny said repeatedly that MJ was in no shape to
go onstage. He kept going on and on about how no one was taking responsibility for getting him
ready. We might be getting beyond, damage control here.
Q. Ok, what does damage control mean?
A. I don't know.

Q. Did you ever ask Bugsy, when he says no one is taking responsibility for getting Mr. Jackson
ready, we might be beyond, damage control, what he meant by that?
A. no, I didn't ask him.
Q. That would seem to be somewhat alarming about Mr. Jackson's condition; wouldn't you agree
with me about that, sir?
A. well, Michael had gone through about three months of being great. It sounded to me like he's
sick, he's got something wrong with him.
Q. Three months….so that would be ... May, April and March is three months, right?
A. yeah, he was good in all those months.
Q. So he was rehearsing for three months?
A. started in ... I think it was late march.
Q. Mr. Jackson was not going to rehearsal, was he, sir… he was missing many rehearsals and Mr.
Ortega was very concerned, wasn't he, sir?
AEG objection: misstates prior testimony; overruled.
A. he made a lot of rehearsals in those first few weeks, he was there every day.
Q. When he said ... Ok, we'll get there ... We might be getting beyond, dot dot dot, damage
control here… that didn't concern you at all?
A. sounded to me Michael was sick, and they were having a meeting in the morning with him, so
I thought that was going to take care of it.
Q. Ok, so as far as you knew ... Just a little flu or something, right?
A. I didn't know what it was, but it sounded like he was sick and I knew they were going to deal
with it in the morning.
Q. Ok, did you respond to that email, let's go to the next email; who responded next?
A. the next one was Randy.
Q. What time did he respond?

A. 1:52 a.m.
Q. Ok, Tim and I are going to see him tomorrow. That's Mr. Leiweke, the CEO of all AEG,
right?
A. I think so.
Q. However, I’m not sure what the problem is, chemical or physiological. Did I read that right,
sir?
A. yes.
Q. Does he mention anything about the flu?
A. he doesn't know what the problem is.
Q. Does he mention anything about the flu, sir… yes or no?
A. no.
Q. Ok, what is a chemical problem, sir?
A. could be a lot of things. Could be a chemical imbalance.
Q. Chemical imbalance; what's that?
A. I don't know.
Q. Well, you just said it could be a chemical imbalance, you don't even know what that is?
A. chemistry of the body not being in balance.
Q. Ok, how does that happen?
A. I don't know. I'm not a doctor.
Q. Chemical ... What else could it be, sir?
A. I don't know.
Q. You've never heard of chemical dependency, sir…you've never heard that term before in
your ...
A. yes, I’ve heard that term before.
Q. Ok, what does chemical dependency mean?
A. a dependency on chemicals, possibly drugs.
Q. Prescription drugs could be one thing that's chemical, couldn't it, sir?
A. could be.
Q. So that was one thing that could be reasonably inferred from what Mr. Phillips was stating,
correct?

A. I didn't really infer anything from this.
Q. All right, you weren't really concerned at all, were you?
A. well, I was at a family wedding and I was seeing my family and I was kind of away from this
and it was the first time that I knew of that there was a problem with Michael and it was being
dealt with.
Q. You weren't ... You weren't too busy at work to make it to that wedding, were you, sir?
A. I don't understand your question.
Q. Well, you've been telling us how busy you were and you couldn't work on this case. But you
were able to get away for that, weren't you?
AEG objection: argumentative: overruled.
A. that was years ago.
Q. You weren't as busy then as you are now?
A. I was pretty busy, but a family obligation is a family obligation.
Q. Well, you told us sir… yesterday, that you were so busy you couldn't even review the budgets,
right?
A. that's right.
Q. Physiological, what does that mean, sir?
A. I don't know specifically.
Q. Well, did you say, hey Randy, what do you mean, chemical or physiological, with the most
important person in this production… did you ask him that, sir?
A. no.
Q. Did you ask anyone...
A. no.
Q. About that, sir?

A. no.
Q. Let's look at the next one. And the next one is your response, right?
A. yes.
Q. And you don't respond and ask any question, you just say take the doctor with you, right?
A. that's what I wrote.
Q. And why wasn't he there last night when Michael had these problems?
A. yeah, if he was sick, why wasn't he there… that was the question.
Q. And what did Mr. Phillips tell you?
A. his response was he's not a psychiatrist ... He is not a psychiatrist, so I’m not sure how
effective he can be at this point.
Q. Well, let's look at this next exhibit. So Mr. Phillips responds to you and Bugsy only, nothing
was being sent to Mr. Ortega at this time, right?
A. no.
Q. And who was tl24@aegworldwide.com, sir?
A. according to this, it's Tim Leiweke.
Q. And Tim Leiweke is the CEO of all the AEG companies, right?
A. yes.
Q. And so now Mr. Phillips on this situation, that was not concerning you wrote back and cc’d
the CEO that reports directly to Mr. Anschutz; isn't that true, sir?
A. I think what he was talking about here is Tim and I are going to see him tomorrow, which
means he and Tim are going to a meeting, so I ... It would seem logical to add him to the chain.
Q. Sir, let's see the email before that where you ... You wrote…
A. all right.
Q. Mr. Leiweke on that email?
A. no.

Q. Ok, and that’s Mr. Phillips ... Responding to your email, sir?
A. apparently, he is.
Q. And you're saying take the doctor with you, and he responds saying he's not a psychiatrist,
I’m not sure how effective he can be at this point. And he now includes the CEO who reports
directly to Mr. Anschutz on these emails, doesn't he, sir?
AEG objection: misstates prior testimony; overruled.
Q. The question is… is that true, sir?
A. well, Tim was going to a meeting, so it's logical he would add it.
Q. Is that a yes, sir?
A. ask it again.
AEG objection: your honor…; overruled, re-ask the question.
Q. Mr. Phillips, the CEO of AEG Live, includes now the CEO of AEG reporting to Mr. Anschutz
about a problem with Mr. Jackson, and he wasn't on the other emails, was he?
AEG objection; misstates prior testimony, reports directly to; overruled.
A. I don't know who Mr. Leiweke reports to.
Q. Who ... Never mind. This is telling you, at least, a fair understanding is that Dr. Murray is not
able to be effective at this time for Mr. Jackson; isn't that true?
A. no, I think Randy is just stating an opinion.
Q. Ok, it was Randy, the CEOs opinion… your boss that he doesn't know how ... Whether Dr.
Murray can be effective at this time, right?
A. he's not sure about it.
Q. He's not sure that this doctor is fit and competent to care for Mr. Jackson at this time five days
before his death, correct?
A. no, I don't think that...

AEG objection: misstates prior testimony; overruled.
A. I don't think that's what he's saying.
Q. I am not sure how effective he can be at this point. Is he referring to Dr. Murray?
A. I believe he is.
Q. Ok and he's not sure that Dr. Murray is the right person to treat Mr. Jackson at this time, is he
sir?
A. well, he's not sure. I think they're going to go find out at this meeting.
Q. Obviously, getting him there is not an issue because Dr. Murray would do whatever you guys
told him to, right?
A. no, sir… that's not the case.
Q. Did you ever demand Dr. Murray to come to a meeting where he didn't show up?
A. I never demanded Dr. Murray to go to a meeting.
Q. Did you ever tell Dr. Murray, or ... Strike that. Are you aware of anything that AEG Live told
Dr. Murray to do that he didn't do?
A. I’m not aware of AEG telling Dr. Murray to do anything.
Q. And Mr. Phillips goes beyond saying I’m not sure how effective he is, effective he can be, he
says getting him there isn't the issue, it's much deeper, didn't he, sir?
A. that's what he writes.
Q. Getting him there, that's Dr. Murray, is not the issue, it's much deeper with Dr. Murray, wasn't
it, sir?
AEG objection: misstates the testimony; overruled.
A. I’m not sure he's referring to Dr. Murray when he's talking about deeper.

Q. Did you ask him?
A. no.
Q. Did you write back and say, what's the problem with Dr. Murray?
A. no.
Q. Did you write back and say, what's the problem with Mr. Jackson?
A. no.
Q. Did you write back and say, why is this much deeper?
A. no, I didn't do that.
Q. Weren't you concerned when someone, your boss, tells you this is a much deeper issue. Didn't
you have some concern, sir?
A. well, there was going to be a meeting that day to discuss it, so I thought that would bring light
to the subject.
Q. Were you concerned?
A. not particularly.
Q. Sounds like something worse than the flu, doesn't it, being much deeper?
A. I don't think anybody knows at this point.
Q. Well, Mr. ... Mr. Phillips isn't saying its might be much deeper, it could be much deeper, he's
saying it is much deeper, isn't he, sir?
A. that's what he writes.
Q. Ok, let’s go now to this next exhibit. So let's start, sir… at Mr. Phillips' email, and let's give
you a copy. And, by the way ... Well, let me know when you're ready.
A. ok,
Q. By the way, that week that this all was going down, did you ever learn that at night, Dr.
Murray was out doing other things?
A. no.

Q. No one ever told you anything about where Dr. Murray was?
A. no.
Q. Because when you asked that question at night, where was Dr. Murray, did anyone tell you
where he was, what he was doing at night and not being there?
A. no.
Q. And you've never heard that ever?
A. no.
Q. And you never sought to find out?
A. no.
Q. Ok, so now this is another email. This is where we talked about Tim and I are going to go
there, right. We discussed this already. Remember?
A. I remember the discussion.
Q. Ok, so let's go up. Don't need to go back over that. All right…now Mr. Hougdahl gets
involved in responding, right?
A. yes, I believe it's a response to Randy, I’m not on it.
Q. Well, you are, because it was forwarded to you, sir.
A. where do I see that?
Q. Right on the top, next email.
A. I’m not sure that ... He may have forwarded me ... I don't see that.
Q. It's right there. See that, sir?
A. it's not clear to me that I got this one.
Q. It says forward. Do you see that?
A. ok, got it.
Q. You accept that now?
A. yes, I do.

Q. Ok, so let's go see what ... Tell us what Mr. Hougdahl wrote to your boss and what your boss
forwarded to you when you had no concern about Michael Jackson.
A. my layman's degree tells me that he needs a shrink to get him mentally prepared to get
onstage and a trainer to get him in physical shape. Kobe's should be available. I've watched him
deteriorate in front of my eyes over the last eight weeks. He was able to do multiple 360 spins
back in April. He'd fall on his ass if he tried it now.
Q. This is the man that was viewing Mr. Jackson every day, right?
A. yes.
Q. Who you viewed as trustworthy and honest, right?
A. yes, I believe that's true.
Q. Who you believe is not a drama queen, correct?
A. no, he's not.
Q. Telling it the way it is, right?
A. that's what he's saying.
Q. And he told you, sir… within six days of Mr. Jackson's death that Mr. Jackson was
deteriorating in front of his own eyes over an eight week period, didn't he sir?
A. that's what he says.
Q. Did that concern you, sir?
A. they were having a meeting that day to discuss it. That's what I was waiting to see.
Q. My question was, sir, did that concern you at all and your most valuable asset for this concert
was deteriorating in front of someone who you believe was trustworthy and honest and not a
drama queen's own eyes?
A. this email would have reached me after the wedding had already started, I wouldn't have seen
it until after the meeting, so I would have been waiting for the answer of what happened at the
meeting.
Q. You told us you don't know if there was a meeting between June 14th and June 20th. You just
told us that, didn't you?

A. no, there was a meeting on June 20th.
Q. Oh, who was there?
A. I wasn't there, I was back east. But I think Randy was there, Michael was there.
Q. Was Mr. Hougdahl there?
A. I don't think he was.
Q. Do you think that Mr. Hougdahl is a good observer of what's going on as ... What did you call
him, a stage manager?
A. he's the production manager.
Q. Production ... That's a pretty important role, isn't it?
A. it is.
Q. Being paid by AEG Live, right?
A. yes.
Q. Is he in management?
A. in AEG Live, no. He's an independent contractor for the show.
Q. Production manager, though, that's pretty high up?
A. yes.
Q. So he's a pretty high-up individual being paid by AEG Live. Is it his job to report to you and
Mr. Phillips if things aren't going well?
A. yes.
Q. And what he's doing here is doing his job reporting to you what he's observing, right?
A. that's what he's doing.
Q. And this didn't concern you at all, did it?
A. I ... I didn't see this email, I don't believe, until after the meeting took place.
Q. Did you write back and say what do you mean, deteriorating over the last eight weeks?
A. no, I didn't do that.

Q. Did you call Mr. Hougdahl and say, what do you mean… what are you talking about?
A. no, I believed all these things were going to be addressed at the meeting on the 20th
Q. So you weren't really concerned about it?
AEG objection: misstates testimony; overruled.
A. it's not a question of concern, it's a question of figuring out what was going on; and I believe
that that meeting that they were going to do with Michael would have shed light on this situation.
Q. Well, sir… is it your experience that the flu deteriorates someone over eight weeks?
A. no.
Q. Let's see what Mr. Phillips responded when he forwarded it to you and Mr. Leiweke, the CEO
and other people. Read us what Mr. Phillips said in response to Mr. Hougdahl saying that Mr.
Jackson was deteriorating over eight weeks in front of his own eyes.
A. unfortunately, we're running out of time. That is my biggest fear.
Q. Running out of time, sir… what does that mean?
A. I would assume he's referring to the show, getting it up and ready.
Q. Ok, because your job, number one focus, is getting the show on the road, right?
A. yes, sir.
Q. Right… and Mr. Phillips, it's important to him that the show go forward, right?
A. it's important to everyone.
Q. You heard that saying, the show must go on?
A. yeah, I’ve heard that before.
Q. That's kind of your mind set in these businesses, isn't it?
A. in the live business, yeah, it is.
Q. Concert live business like this, the show must go on, right?
A. it's a saying.
Q. Ok, well, you follow that, don't you, sir… that's your job?
A. try to.
Q. And you were trying to do it here, the show must go on, right?

A. yes.
Q. And then Mr. Phillips tells you and the CEO of your company that the ... His biggest fear is
being realized in response to the email where he's told that Michael Jackson is deteriorating in
front of his eyes over eight weeks, correct?
A. could you ask it again? I didn’t...
Q. You can ... Yeah. It's probably a bad question. Mr. Phillips, when he says we're running out
of time, that's referring to the show. That's your understanding, right?
A. I believe so.
Q. And his biggest fear was that the show is not going to go as scheduled, wasn't it sir?
A. you'd have to ask him about his fear.
Q. Well, that would be a fair reading of it. Unfortunately, running out of time… is referring back
to running out of time as his biggest fear?
A. he may have said that, but I didn't agree with that.
Q. Ok, but that is what he said to you, sir. It said we're running out of time, the show is not
going to go on as scheduled, that's what he was worried about, wasn't he, sir?
A. he was afraid of that, but I wasn't.
Q. Ok, but that was his biggest fear. Your boss's biggest fear was not that Michael Jackson was
deteriorating in front of him over eight weeks, it was that the show won't go on; isn't that right,
sir?
A. that's what he said.
Q. Ok and is that the philosophy at AEG Live, that the show is more important than the artist?
A. no.
AEG objection: vague and ambiguous as to philosophy; overruled.

A. no, that's not.
Q. Well, you ... Do you know about policies for your company, sir?
A. yeah, I guess.
Q. Well, have you seen the published policies that they set forth as their mission statement?
A. I don't recall it.
Q. You told us about the policies for hiring independent contractors. Do you remember that this
morning?
A. the policies for hiring independent contractors?
Q. Yeah, do you know what ... What the company's policies are for hiring independent
contractors, sir?
A. I’m not sure what you're referring to.
Q. My question is, do you ... Does the firm ... Strike that. Does your company that you work for
have policies for hiring independent contractors?
A. I don't know.
Q. Does your firm have policies for checking out independent contractors?
AEG objection: vague and ambiguous as to checking out; overruled on that ground.
A. well, we check out people either by knowing them or knowing of them by reputation in our
industry, or by the artist's recommendation.
Q. Is that a published policy at your company, sir?
A. I don't know.
Q. When did you first learn about that policy, sir?
A. just something we do.
Q. When did you first learn about that policy, sir?
A. I don't recall.

Q. Because you were asked at your deposition whether you had any policies, you said you didn't
know of any. Do you remember that, sir?
A. I don't remember that.
Q. So you don't know when you first learned of this policy?
A. I don't know.
Q. Is it in writing?
A. I have no idea.
Q. Have you ever heard about it before you came to testify here in court?
A. yeah.
Q. When did you hear about it?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Did anyone from the company ever tell you that, sir?
A. that's how I would have learned it.
Q. Who told that to you from the company, sir?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Now, sir… let's look at this next exhibit here...let me show it to you. And, by the way, while
we're doing that, did you have an understanding that Dr. Murray's contract was supposed to begin
on May 1st?
A. I have no idea when his contract was supposed to start.
Q. Well, when you saw him at the home when you were there, you knew that he was treating Mr.
Jackson, correct?
A. as his personal physician.
Q. His personal physician that you were telling to show up to meetings?
A. I don't think we ever told him. We may have requested.
Q. Ok, well… his personal physician that you were entering into a written contract with, right?

A. we had not yet entered into a contract with him.
Q. You instructed your people to negotiate a written contract with Dr. Murray, who was Mr.
Jackson's personal physician, according to you, right?
A. well, that contract was for London and for the shows in London, I believe.
Q. Well, you don't know because you never saw it?
A. that's right.
Mr. Panish: ok, here’s the exhibit I wanted to show you
AEG objection: lacking foundation. Judge: let me see it, let me take a look at it. Mr.
Panish: well, I’m going to lay the foundation right now. Judge: all right.
Q. Your lawyer just told all of us that you're not on that email. Did you hear that, sir?
Mr. Putnam: the first one, your honor.
Mr. Panish: did you hear that, sir?
Judge: I’m sorry. Hold on. Let's just see if we can lay the foundation.
Mr. Panish: I will.
Q. You just heard your lawyer say all that, right ... That you're not on that?
A. I couldn't hear him...
Q. Ok, your lawyer just told us that you're only on one of those emails. That's not true, is it, sir?
A. I don't know.
Mr. Panish: let me just circle it for you.
Q. Sir, do you use another name for emails?

A. this one says Kazoodi. That ... I may have used that before, yes.
Q. Sir, that's your registered name for emails when you want to have other emails, isn't it, sir?
A. I don't understand the question.
AEG objection
Q. Ok, well let's see if we can refresh your recollection.
AEG: I withdraw the objection if that's his email.
Judge: well, let's find out.
Mr. Panish: oh, it is.
A. yeah, I use that occasionally.
Judge: ok
Q. Ok, you own kazoodi.com, don't you, sir?
A. I think I do.
Q. You don't know, so Mr. Phillips forwarded you the whole email chain at a private unknown
email address that you didn't even know, right. Your lawyer certainly didn't know it and you
didn't, either, did you?
A. I mean, it's not clear to me that this was forwarded ... All this ... The rest of this stuff ... The
one at the top obviously was, but I don't know about the rest of this.
Q. The one at the top is the whole chain, sir…Kazoodi. What does Kazoodi stand for?
A. I don't know. It's just a name that I thought I’d try.
Q. You don't even know what your own name stands for?
A. I kind of like how it sounds.

Q. Just made it up?
A. it used to be a nickname in college.
Q. Kazoodi was your nickname in college?
A. yeah.
Q. What does Kazoodi mean, sir?
A. there was no meaning to it. Remember the old TV show Rudy Kazoodi?
Q. It's before my time, but I’ll accept that. So you were like Rudy Kazoodi. And what did Rudy
Kazoodi ... What kind of TV show was that?
A. it was even before my time.
Q. Ok, Rudy Kazoodi. We'll accept that. But Mr. Phillips, he didn't send you those emails at
your AEG Live address, did he sir?
A. apparently not.
Q. Well, why would ... Do you know why he would be sending these emails to you at a Kazoodi
address; do you know why?
A. no, I have no idea.
Q. Ok and he was also sending that, sir… Mr. Phillips, to Mr. Leiweke at his private non-AEG
email, wasn't he, sir?
A. it doesn't say that on here.
Q. Ok, well counsel, will you stipulate to that?
A. oh, there it is. Excuse me, sir. I do see it now.
Q. Ok, so Mr. Phillips, the CEO, is taking these emails and he's sending them to you at a non-
AEG private email address, and he's sending them to the CEO of all of AEG's private email
address, right?
A. I guess.

Q. Can you tell us why he would do that, sir?
A. I think you'd have to ask him. I have no idea.
Q. Was it because he didn't want anyone to find it?
A. I have no idea.
Q. Well, did you ever say, why is it that… you said that, I have thousands of emails sent to my
AEG Live account, and you chose to send this one to my Kazoodi private account?
A. I didn't ask him that.
Q. It didn't strike you as odd?
A. probably didn't even notice where it was sent.
Q. Oh, because on your smart phone, as you call it, you got all your emails?
A. it would have been to that...
Q. No, but on your smart phone...
A. because at that time, I was still back east.
Q. But on your smart phone, did you get your AEG Live emails?
A. I think everything forwarded there.
Q. You think or you know?
A. I think.
Q. And this, sir… is the email where Randy Phillips forwarded you that he is lying to Kenny
Ortega about Dr. Murray, isn't it, sir?
A. I don't know. I've never seen this before. I don't recall seeing it before. Do you want me to
take time to read it?
Q. Well, let's ... Let's ... Sure, you take your time, read all you want, and let me know when
you're ready.
A. ok
Q. All right, well let's go to the back and let's start with the first email entitled subject, trouble at
the front. And it's on two pages, let's just look at that first. And I don't need to go over that
because you and I have already discussed that, right sir?

A. we talked about that one.
Q. About doubt being pervasive, etc…concerning, embarrass himself, hurting himself and such,
right?
A. yes, we talked about that.
Q. Ok, so then let's go to the next email. That one is only sent to the CEO, Mr. Leiweke, by Mr.
Phillips, correct?
A. right.
Q. And what does Mr. Phillips tell Mr. Leiweke in response to Bugsy’s concerned email?
A. we have a real problem here.
Q. And what was the problem, to your understanding, sir. Was it Mr. Jackson's health, or you
couldn't get the show on the road?
A. I don't know what he was referring to.
Q. You ... You would agree with me, would you not, sir, that it would not be appropriate for one
of your management people to be more concerned about getting a show going than an artist's
health…would you agree with that, sir?
A. well, the artist health is paramount. Without an artist, you don't have a show.
Q. So would you agree with me that would be wrong, inappropriate, never should happen?
A. the artist health is the most important thing, I agree with that.
Q. And if you put the show going forward in front of the artist's health, that would be wrong?
A. well, I think they go together.
Q. Sir, if you put the show going forward in front of the artist's health, that would be wrong
would you agree with me?
A. the artist is paramount, yes.
Q. That's a yes?

A. the artist is the most important thing.
Q. And it would be wrong to put the show in front of the artist's health, correct…or would it be
okay with AEG; how you do business there?
A. I don't think it would be ok
Q. Ok, so it's wrong?
A. ok
Q. You give me that one?
A. yes, sir.
Q. Ok, thank you. Now let's go ... And the real problem there, you said I’ve got to ask Randy that
because you don't know, right?
A. which one are you referring to?
Q. I'm sorry. You can't see it. The one on the screen in front of you. Can you see it?
A. yes, sir.
Q. The one that says trouble at the front, we have a real problem here and that's one CEO to the
other CEO ... That's the highest-ranking people in those two companies, right?
A. yes.
Q. And they're ... And one is telling the other, his boss, that there's a real problem, right?
A. that's what he's saying.
Q. Ok, what was the real problem, sir?
AEG objection: calls for speculation; overruled, if he knows.
Mr. Panish: I’ll redo it.
Q. Do you know what the real problem was?

A. no.
Q. Did you ever do anything to find out what the real problem was?
A. well, there was a meeting going to be happening the next day which I think would have
addressed what the problem was, and I would have known from that.
Q. Did you do anything to find out what the real problem was, sir?
A. no, I waited for the results of the meeting.
Q. So the answer is you did nothing?
A. no, I waited.
Q. Ok, fair enough. When you saw there's a real problem, you just waited?
A. to see what was going to happen in the meeting the next day, yes.
Q. Ok, and then the next email is back from Mr. Leiweke, the CEO, to Mr. Phillips. And what
does he say?
A. He says, let's set up a time for you and me to meet with him. I want Kenny in the meeting, as
well.
Q. So is that an instruction that Mr. Leiweke is giving?
A. I believe it is.
Q. And who are they going to meet with?
A. I believe they want to meet with Michael.
Q. And the doctor?
A. it says ... I believe its Michael.
Q. Did Mr. Leiweke ever meet with Mr. Jackson?
A. I know of one time he did.
Q. Ok, in the month of June?
A. I don't know whether ... In June, whether he met with him or not.
Q. Did he meet with Mr. Jackson and Mr. Anschutz together, Mr. Leiweke?
A. yes, there was a meeting.

Q. And Mr. Anschutz and Mr. Leiweke flew in a private plane to Las Vegas to meet with Mr.
Jackson to talk to him about doing the show, didn't they, sir?
A. I have no idea how they got there.
Q. Does Mr. Anschutz fly on commercial jets, to your knowledge, sir?
A. no, I don't believe he does; but I don't know how they get there. They may have been there
for the King’s game.
Q. So did they drive to Las Vegas?
A. you'd have to ask...
AEG objection: lacks foundation, your honor.
Q. Did they take a bus with the team?
Judge: sustained, lacks foundation.
Q. Bad question, I’m sorry. The team doesn't take a bus, either….the team flies on a charter, don't
they, sir?
AEG objection: again, your honor, lacks foundation, irrelevant. Judge: irrelevant,
sustained.
Q. Let’s just stick with this. Now, sir…let's go back to Mr. Leiweke and he wants Mr. Ortega at
that meeting, doesn't he?
A. that's what he says here.
Q. Well, he usually says what he means, doesn't he?
A. yeah, I believe so.
Q. By the way, he's not with the company anymore, is he sir?
A. no.

Q. Do you know why he left?
A. no.
Q. Ok, let's go to the next one. And this is Mr. Phillips asking Kenny if he'll come with him,
right?
A. yes.
Q. Ok, pretty self-explanatory; or as you would say, obvious, right?
A. ok
Q. Is that right… You don't have to agree with me, I’m just asking.
A. I think it's obvious.
Q. Ok, and they're always using their AEG Live email addresses, aren't they, sir?
A. yes.
Q. Ok, let’s go to the next one. And this is Mr. Ortega writing back to Mr. Phillips, right?
A. yes.
Q. And this is Mr. Ortega says he's willing to help, right?
A. that's his first sentence.
Q. And then he says my concern is now that we've brought the doctor in the fold ... What does it
mean to bring the doctor in the fold, sir?
A. I have no idea.
Q. You never heard of bringing someone in the fold?
A. I don't know what Kenny means by it.
Q. What does it mean to you to bring someone in the fold?
A. to include them.
Q. Ok, and ... And they played the tough love now or never card. What does that mean, tough
love now or never?
A. I don't know what Kenny meant by that.
Q. Ok, was that an attempt to pressure Mr. Jackson?

AEG objection: lacks foundation; overruled.
A. I don't know what he meant.
Q. But he did mean that the artist, Mr. Jackson, may be unable to rise to the occasion due to real
emotional stuff. Did I read that right?
A. that's what he says.
Q. Did you ever find out what that real emotional stuff was?
A. no.
Q. He appeared quite weak and fatigued. Did you find out what was causing that?
A. I expected that would come out in the meeting.
Q. Ok, so the answer is no, you didn't… well, did you find out what was causing the weakness
and fatigue as a result of the meeting?
A. I don't know what it was. They gave him a couple of days off and he came back strong and
fine, so I don't know what the specific reason was.
Q. Well, sir… you didn't even see how he did when he came back because you didn't watch
rehearsal on the 23rd, did you?
A. I may have watched a bit of it.
Q. Well, you told me this morning you didn't on the 23rd, and you watched one song on the 24th.
A. I do recall watching a song on the 24th.
AEG objection: misstates testimony; sustained.
Q. Did you watch any rehearsal on the 23rd, sir?
A. I may have. I was through there as part of my ... What I was doing.
Q. Did you or did you not watch any rehearsal on the 23rd, yes or no?
AEG objection: asked and answered; overruled.

Q. Or you don't know?
A. I may have seen bits and pieces.
Q. Do you know that?
A. no, I don't know for sure.
Q. Ok, but you watched one song on the 24th, right?
A. I remember that one for sure, yes.
Q. Ok, so then it says… everything in me says that he should be psychologically evaluated. And
you already knew that Mr. Phillips said that Dr. Murray was not a psychiatrist and that's probably
not something he could help with, right?
A. I’m not sure whether I would have known it at the time or not of this writing. Because this is
all happening on the 20th, I’m at a family wedding, so I’m not sure how that played out.
Q. But you're reading these and responding, aren't you?
AEG objection; misstates testimony, your honor; overruled.
Judge: were you reading and responding?
A. I think when I was finished for the day, I looked at them; but I didn't ... As it was ongoing, I
don't believe I did.
Q. Ok, let me just read it… he had terrible case of chills, was trembling, rambling, obsessing,
everything, and he says… he should be psychologically evaluated. If we have any chance at all
to get him back in the light, it's going to take strong therapists to help him through this, as well as
immediate physical nurturing. I was told by our choreographer that during the artist costume
fitting with his designer tonight, they noticed he's lost more weight. Were you aware of that, sir?
A. no.
Q. You weren't in any of those fittings, were you?
A. no, I was out of town.
Q. Ok, and Mr. Phillips, to your knowledge, was never there, was he?

A. I don't know where he was at that time.
Q. As far as I can tell, there's no one taking responsibility, caring for him on a daily basis. Where
was his assistant tonight? Tonight I was feeding him, wrapping him in blankets to warm his
chills, massaging his feet to calm him and calling his doctor. Did I read that right?
A. yes, sir.
Q. Ok, so now the director is calling the doctor, right?
A. that's what he says.
Q. Mr. Jackson wasn't able to call his doctor, was he, sir?
A. I don't know that.
Q. There were four security guards outside the door, but no one was offering him a cup of hot
tea. Finally, it's important for everyone to know I believe he really wants this. It would shatter
him, break his heart, if we pulled the plug. He's terribly frightened it's all going away. He asked
me repeatedly tonight if I was going to leave him. He was practically begging for my
confidence. It broke my heart. He was like a lost boy. There must be a chance that he can see ...
He can rise to the occasion if we get him the help he needs. Now, would you agree that Mr.
Ortega is crying out to get some help for Mr. Jackson?
A. he's expressing his concerns, yes.
Q. Well, he's not saying, oh he might have a problem, or it could be a problem, he's pretty
emphatic, saying we have a problem here and we need to maybe ... He can rise if we get him the
help he needs? Is that true?
A. that's the gist of it.
Q. Ok, let’s go to the next one. Now we're at Mr. Phillips… so he's responding to Kenny. That's
Mr. Ortega, right?
A. yes.
Q. And he's telling him I will call you when I figure this out. We have a person like that, Brigitte
... Who is Brigitte?
A. she was working on Michael's accommodations in London.

Q. Ok, and is she a therapist?
A. no; she's a lawyer.
Q. She's a lawyer. So how is Brigitte to your knowledge, going to help Mr. Jackson?
A. I don't know what he meant.
Q. Well, you were friends with Brigitte, weren't you?
A. yes.
Q. Good friends?
A. yes.
Q. And she was the one that was getting the stay in London set up for Dr. Murray and for Mr.
Jackson, right?
A. she was doing the housing for the party, yes.
Q. And that included Mr. Jackson...
A. yes.
Q. And Dr. Murray is in the party, right?
A. yes.
Q. And it says we will bring her back A.S.A.P. and Frank too… however, I’m stymied on who is
going ... To bring in as a therapist and how they can get through to him in such a short time.
What was ... What was short about time?
A. I don't know.
Q. Well, was there any reason that you couldn't get someone to help Mr. Jackson, to your
knowledge?
A. I don't know. You'd have to ask Randy.
Q. But short of time is because the show was supposed to start soon and you were supposed to
travel to London because the people had already gone there to get it set up; isn't that right, sir?
A. well, we did have a crew there, yes.

Q. And Frank Dileo, Mr. Jackson's manager, was already in London, wasn't he?
A. no, I don't think so.
Q. We will bring her back A.S.A.P. And Frank, too. Where were they going to bring Frank back
from, sir?
A. I think he was gone that weekend, the same as I was; but I don't believe he was in London.
Q. Ok, he was out of town, but AEG was going to bring him back, right?
A. that's what he's saying.
Q. A.S.A.P., that means as soon as possible, right?
A. I think so, yeah.
Q. But Mr. Phillips was worried that there was only a short time. And what I’d like to know is,
sir… a short time to what?
A. I wouldn't agree with him. We were probably three and a half weeks away from our first
show, and that's ... To me, that's still a lot of time.
Q. It was a short time until Mr. Jackson died, wasn't it, sir?
A. it was.
Mr. Panish: ok, let’s go to the next one.
Judge: before we go to the next one, let's take a 15-minute break.
Break
Q. Ok, this is Mr. Phillips. We talked about this already ... Remember right before the break, we
were discussing this, the short time thing, right?
A. yes, sir.
Q. Do you refer to yourself sometimes as Mr. Kazoodi?
A. no, sir.
Q. Rudy Kazoodi that was a TV show, your nickname?
A. yes.

Q. And the theme song was the boy who brought everyone joy, the man who made everyone feel
grand, wasn't it, sir?
A. I don't ... It was before my time. Obviously, not before yours.
Q. I just looked it up on the internet because I was interested. And somebody that brings
everyone joy ... Were you bringing everyone joy in college for some reason, sir?
A. no, no.
Q. You weren't ... Ok, let’s look at the next email. Ok, and now we have Mr. Ortega again writing
to Mr. Phillips and basically saying that he's waiting for instructions, right?
A. yes.
Q. And he's telling Mr. Phillips, five days before Mr. Jackson's death, that he doesn't think
Michael is ready for this based on his continued physical weakening and deepening emotional
state, right?
A. that's what he says.
Q. Did you talk to Mr. Ortega about this, sir?
A. no.
Q. Mr. Ortega was there every day with Mr. Jackson when he was there, right?
A. yes.
Q. Would you think he'd be in a good position to assess how Mr. Jackson was doing physically
and emotionally?
A. he was the closest man to him, that's right.
Q. So that's a yes?
A. yes, he'd be in a good position.
Q. And then he talks about this HBO concert that had to be cancelled. It says it's reminiscent of
what Karen ... I think that's Ms. Faye ... Bush ... I forgot his ... Michael, might be. Do you know
who Mr. Bush is?

A. wardrobe, Michael's wardrobe.
Q. Ok, what was the first name?
A. Michael bush.
Q. Ok, I was right and then it says ... Travis Payne and I. Kenny Ortega, remembered just before
he fainted, causing HBO concerts to be cancelled. Were you familiar with that situation?
A. no, I wasn't involved in that.
Q. Ok, but you told ... At least in your email, your notes, that you've lived these events with
Michael Jackson, right?
A. I’m not sure what you're referring to.
Q. Those notes yesterday that I went through with you and ... Remember Mr. Tohme and it was
your notes and why you were the right ones to do the shows and you talked about living through
the problems and the idiosyncrasies with Mr. Jackson. Do you remember that?
A. yes, but we weren't involved with the HBO shows.
Q. Fair enough… there are strong signs of paranoia, anxiety and obsessive-like behavior. Now, is
that something from the flu, to your knowledge, sir?
A. I don't think that would be flu symptoms.
Q. Ok, did that concern you at all when you saw that, sir?
A. well, this was all happening prior to the meeting and I was waiting to see what happened in
the meeting to understand what was going on.
Q. So it didn't concern you?
A. well, you're always concerned; but I was waiting to understand what the situation was.
Q. Did you do anything when you were concerned?
A. no, I was at a family wedding.

Q. I think the very best thing we can do is get a top psychiatrist in to evaluate him A.S.A.P. It's
like there are two people there, one deep inside trying to hold on to what he has and still can be
and not wanting us to guilt him, the other...
Judge: quit. Quit him...
Mr. Panish: quit him. You're right, I’m sorry…. The other in this weakened and troubled
state. I am doing my best to be objective, offering as an intelligent observation as I can
being his friend and concerned adult.
Q. Was it your understanding that Mr. Ortega was being objective, but he was concerned?
A. Kenny was always concerned, yes.
Q. And he was objective, wasn't he, sir?
A. he is an artist, so objectivity is filtered through that.
Q. So, in other words, artists aren't objective… is that what you're saying, sir?
A. artists see things differently than normal people.
Q. And so artists aren't normal people, then right?
A. they're special people. Let's put it that way.
Q. Well, do you treat artists as special people or as not-normal people?
A. I think they are special.
Q. Ok, you don't refer to them by derogatory names and things like that, do you?
A. no.
Q. That wouldn't be right, would it?
A. no.
Q. And then I honestly felt if I had encouraged or allowed him onstage last night, he could have
hurt himself. Was that concerning to you, sir?
A. like I said, I think I got all these at one time and I was waiting to see what the results of the
meeting would be.
Q. And then it says I believe we need professional guidance in this matter. Kenny. Right?
A. that's what he says.

Q. Ok, but sir… Mr. Ortega ... Would you agree with me if you're reading that, certainly seems
like someone crying out to do something for Mr. Jackson out of serious concern?
A. yeah, he's obviously concerned.
Q. Seriously concerned, isn't he, sir?
A. seems to be.
Q. And do you know how AEG handled Mr. Ortega's serious concerns?
A. I mean, I think I do. They ... After this, they had a meeting with Michael.
Q. Let’s see how Mr. Phillips handled this on June 20th, five days before Michael died. Ok and
here's Mr. Phillips, to Kenny. It says Kenny, it's critical that neither you, I nor anyone around
this show become amateur psychiatrists or physicians. Did I read that right?
A. yes, sir.
Q. Then he goes on to say, I had a lengthy conversation with Dr. Murray, who I am gaining
immense respect for as I get to deal with him more. Do you know when that conversation
occurred, sir?
A. no.
Q. Do you know where that occurred?
A. no, I believe the meeting was at Michael's house and if he's referring to that, that's where it
would have occurred.
Q. Ok, well my question was do you know?
A. don't know for sure.
Q. Did you know that Mr. Phillips had a long telephone conversation with Dr. Murray around
this time, sir?
A. no.
Q. He never told you that?
A. no.

Q. He said that Michael is not only physically equipped to perform and that discouraging him to
will hasten his decline ... Hasten his decline. Does that mean that he's declining?
A. that's what Randy is writing.
Q. Right, in other words, as of June 20th, Mr. Phillips acknowledges that Mr. Jackson is
declining, doesn't he, sir?
A. that's what he writes here.
Q. And, sir… the meeting with Dr. Murray, Mr. Ortega was at that meeting, wasn't he, sir?
A. I wasn't at the meeting.
Q. Ok, but you just told us that Mr. Ortega and Mr. Phillips were at a meeting with Dr. Murray.
Didn't you tell us that, sir?
A. I believe ... I know Randy was there and I believe Kenny was there.
Q. Ok, but this email sir… is at 1:48. Is that a.m., sir?
A. 13:48 would be p.m.
Q. P.m. Ok, so if Mr. Ortega was at the meeting, Mr. Phillips wouldn't have to tell him what the
doctor said, would he?
A. don't know. You can't tell from this if the meeting had happened yet.
Q. Well, he said I had a lengthy conversation with Dr. Murray. He doesn't say you and I had a
conversation, does he?
A. no.
Q. But he does say, that Dr. Murray has told him that Mr. Jackson is declining, didn't he?
A. he says that, according ... According to Dr. Murray, if I read this correctly, that Michael was
not only physically equipped to perform, and that ... This is really small.
Q. Discouraging him too, will hasten his decline… instead of stopping it, right?

A. right.
Q. So he was in a decline five days before he died, wasn't he admitted by his doctor and told to
the CEO of your company, according to your CEO?
A. it also says he's physically equipped to perform.
Q. We'll get to that, sir. The doctor told your CEO that this artist, Mr. Jackson, was in a decline,
right?
A. that's ... I guess that's what he says here, yes.
Q. And then Dr. Murray said he's mentally able to do and was speaking to me from the house
where he had spent the morning with MJ, so that indicates that Mr. Phillips was on the telephone
with Dr. Murray, doesn't it, sir?
A. seems to.
Q. Fair reading of that?
A. seems to say that.
Q. Then he says ... This is to Mr. Ortega, the person that's really concerned. He says this doctor,
Dr. Murray, is extremely successful. We check everyone out. Did I read that right, sir?
A. yes.
Q. Ok, who checked out Dr. Murray?
A. I don't know.
Q. It wasn't you, was it?
A. I relied on Michael's recommendation.
Q. Did you check Dr. Murray out, sir?
A. no further than Michael's recommendation.
Q. Ok, did Mr. Phillips, to your knowledge, check Dr. Murray out?
A. I don't know if he did or not.
Q. Did Mr. Woolley check Dr. Murray out?
A. I don't know.

Q. Can you name a single person from AEG… did Mr. Leiweke check Dr. Murray out?
A. I don't know.
Q. Can you name a single person from AEG that checked out Dr. Murray?
A. I don't know if anyone did or not. I don't have any ... I don't know that.
Q. Ok, it says we check everyone out. That's AEG that he's referring to as the CEO, right?
A. I believe it is.
Q. We check everyone out and then he goes on to say ... And I assume he's referring to the
doctor, he doesn't need this gig. Did I read that right?
A. yes.
Q. And gig means the job as the doctor, correct?
A. I think that's what he's referring to.
Q. Ok, and when someone doesn't need the gig that means they don't need the money, right, sir?
A. I don't know what it means in that way, but it says he doesn't need the gig.
Q. Well, did ... Did you ask Mr. Phillips, what did you do to check out Dr. Murray?
A. no.
Q. Did you ever learn that Dr. Murray was extremely successful?
A. I didn't know anything about him.
Q. Ok, did you ever know that Dr. Murray was in serious financial debt when you reached your
agreement for 150,000 a month?
A. no.
Q. Well, if somebody doesn't need the gig, wouldn't that suggest to you that they're financially
stable?
A. or that they have other work.
Q. Ok, well, if they have other work, then they'd be financially stable, wouldn't they, sir?
A. I don't know. It's an assumption.
Q. Is that a fair assumption, sir?

A. some people work for reasons other than money.
Q. Well, Dr. Murray, do you know if he's working for any reason other than money?
A. I don't know that.
Q. Well, then he says he, Dr. Murray, is totally unbiased and ethical. Do you know if that was the
case, sir?
A. he's a doctor. I would believe that.
Q. You would?
A. I would believe every doctor is unbiased and ethical, yes.
Q. Well, doctors get their licenses taken away every day, don't they, sir?
A. I don't know every day, but I guess there are a few bad apples, but my view of doctors is that
they are ethical.
Q. Ok, but you would check them out to find that out, wouldn't you, sir?
A. no, I think it's just a natural assumption on my part. I wouldn't ... You know, I’ve never
checked out a doctor I ever used. I just go by recommendations.
Q. Ok
A. but I’ve never checked anyone to see if they were in debt or any of that.
Q. Have you ever paid a doctor 150,000 a month?
A. no.
Q. Do you know anyone that's ever paid a doctor 150,000 a month?
A. no.
Q. Do you know any doctors that ever demanded $5 million to do something?
A. no.
Q. To treat one patient?
A. no.
Q. That, to you, was ridiculous and outrageous wasn't it?

A. I thought it was.
Q. And do you think an ethical and unbiased doctor would demand $5 million to treat one
patient, sir?
A. in a business sense, I could understand him trying to get what he could. I don't think that
necessarily reflects on his ethics.
Q. So someone's demanding $5 million to treat one patient, that doesn't raise any concern to you
that they might be biased or unethical… is that your testimony, sir?
A. yeah, with Michael Jackson, it's like everyone thought that Michael Jackson had all the money
in the world, and they could ask for whatever they wanted. In putting the tour together, I dealt
with that every day. It wasn't unusual for me to see people asking for way too much money.
Q. Well, way too much ... I mean, you cut him down by 3.5 million, right?
A. if he was working ten months, it would be 3.5
Q. And then ... This is all being written to Mr. Ortega, who's raising all these concerns about Mr.
Jackson, right?
A. yes, it's to Kenny.
Q. And then he says it is critical that we surround mike with love and support and listen to how
he wants to get ready for July 13th. You cannot imagine the harm and ramification of stopping
this show now. Did I read that right, sir?
A. yes.
Q. Mr. Phillips was concerned about the harm and ramifications of stopping the show, wasn't he,
sir?
A. yeah, the harm and ramifications, there would have been some to AEG, but it would have
been very serious to Michael.
Q. Dying is a lot more serious than stopping a show, isn't it, sir?
A. yeah, I’d say that.

Q. Mr. Phillips is more concerned about the show being stopped, isn't he, sir?
A. I don't get that from this.
Q. Does he say anything about he's got no worries about Michael Jackson ... Well, strike that. He
knows that Michael Jackson is in declining health when he writes this and says you can't imagine
the harm and ramifications of stopping the show now, doesn't he, sir?
A. and he's going to go meet with him that day to sort it out.
Q. Can you answer my question, please?
A. again, please?
Q. When he writes this and says you can't imagine the harm and ramification of stopping this
show now, he knows, the CEO, that Michael Jackson is in declining health, doesn't he, sir?
A. he ... His doctors told him that
Q. Is that a yes?
A. he ... His doctor has told him he's physically equipped to perform and that he does discuss a
decline.
Q. Sir, my question was, when Mr. Phillips wrote this email to Kenny, trouble at the front, he
knew that Mr. Jackson's physical condition was in a decline, correct?
A. and he also knew that he was physically equipped to perform.
Q. Can you answer my question, Sir. When Mr. Phillips wrote this email, he knew that Michael
Jackson's physical condition was in a decline based on what his doctor told him?
A. based on what his doctor told him.
Q. Is that right, sir?
A. yes, sir.

Q. And he knew that from what Mr. Hougdahl said, how he saw him declining in front of his
very own eyes over eight weeks, correct?
A. yes, sir, Bugsy said that.
Q. And he knew that Kenny Ortega said that he didn't think he was physically equipped to
perform both physically and emotionally, didn't he, sir?
A. yes, that's why they were having a meeting to sort this out and find out what was going on.
Q. And then he knew… that Mr. Phillips himself… that he didn't know whether the problem was
chemical or physiological, right?
A. that's why they were having the meeting.
Q. Is that a yes, sir?
A. that's why they were having the meeting, yes, sir.
Q. And then he said… I can far outweigh calling the game in the seventh inning. I'm not just
talking about AEG's interests here but the myriad of stuff and lawsuits surrounding or swirling
around MJ that I crisis manage every day and also his wellbeing. I'm meeting with him today at
4:00 at the forum. Did they ever have a meeting at the forum, sir?
A. I believe they had a meeting, but I don't know what time.
Q. There was no meeting at the forum, was there, sir?
A. I don't know where it was. I was out of town.
Q. Did you ever ask Mr. Phillips, where was the meeting?
A. no; but I did talk to him and he said that the meeting went well. But where it was ... I wasn't
concerned where it was. It didn't matter.
Q. And then he says, enough alarms have sounded. It's time to put out the fire, not burn the
building down. Did I read that right, sir?
A. yes.

Q. So he's telling Mr. Ortega, hey… don't worry anymore, don't raise concerns, it's all going to
be ok, we check everyone out, the doctor doesn't need this gig, he's totally unbiased and ethical,
right?
A. that's what he says.
Q. That wasn't true, was it, sir?
A. I had no reason to doubt it.
Q. The doctor ... You don't know anything about Dr. Murray having serious financial problems?
A. no.
Q. Never heard that before today?
A. no.
Q. And you don't know anything about Dr. Murray's background, his qualifications, his licensing.
You don't know anything about that, right?
A. no, I just knew he was Michael's doctor.
Q. I understand that, sir. You've told me that a number of times. But Michael's doctor who you
were having a written contract with AEG, right?
A. yes.
Q. Michael's doctor who you negotiated a price for him to go on the tour, right?
A. yes.
Q. Michael's doctor who you were telling Mr. Phillips to take him to a meeting with, right?
A. same doctor.
Q. And, sir, let's look at this one where Mr. Phillips, sends this to Mr. Ortega, let's see what he
did next. He then writes ... He forwards all these emails to you at your private email, Mr.
Leiweke at his private email and Mr. Dileo at his private email, correct?
A. it appears so.
Q. And he says this guy, Mr. Ortega, is really starting to concern me. Did I read that right, sir?
A. I don't see Mr. Ortega in there.

Q. Ok, he’s referring to Mr. Ortega, isn't he, sir?
A. that's not clear to me. He might be referring to Michael.
Q. Ok, that’s not clear to you. Mr. Ortega is on every other email, but he doesn't send this email
to him, does he, sir?
A. but it's not clear to me who, this guy, is…
Q. Ok
A. well, let's read the next sentence. Read his email and my response.
Q. Who is that referring to, Mr. Gongaware?
A. that's referring to Mr. Ortega.
Q. Ok, Mr. Phillips, who was here this morning briefly ... Right?
A. yes.
Q. He's writing to the private emails of Leiweke the CEO, Dileo and to you, right?
A. yes.
Q. Kazoodi, that's your private email, we established that, right?
A. yes.
Q. Ok, and he says, when forwarding all these other emails that we've gone through, this guy is
really starting to concern me, and you said you don't know that he's referring to Mr. Ortega. But
then when you read the next sentence, read his email and my response, that makes it crystal clear
that Mr. Phillips is concerned about Mr. Ortega complaining about Michael Jackson's physical
condition, doesn't it, sir?
A. I don't know what Randy meant here. I could easily take this as, this guy, is Michael Jackson.
I don't get that from this...
Q. Really?
A. no.
Q. Did he forward you any emails from Michael Jackson, sir?
A. no.

Q. Did he forward you any emails from anyone that talked about the physical condition, other
than Bugsy and Mr. Ortega?
A. no.
Q. Did you ask him, who are you concerned about?
A. no, I didn't ask him.
Q. Ok, so if it was Michael Jackson, like you say… then he was seriously concerned about
Michael Jackson's health five days before he died, right?
A. he ... He's concerned about somebody.
Q. Well, wait a minute. You said it could be Michael Jackson, right?
A. could be.
Q. So let's read it your way. Mr. Phillips is CEO, is really concerned about Michael Jackson's
health, right?
A. starting to concern him, yes.
Q. Yeah…
A. and there's a meeting later on in the day to try to figure it out, to discuss it.
Q. Ok, really starting to concern him?
A. that's what it says.
Q. So do you think it was Michael Jackson or Kenny Ortega, sir?
A. I can't tell from this.
Q. Ok, but you never asked him, who he was referring to...
A. no.
Q. Did you, sir?
A. no, I was at a family wedding.
Q. Well, did you come back from the wedding at some point?
A. yes.
Q. Did you come back the next day, on Sunday?

A. got in late Sunday night.
Q. Ok, did you call ... Did you have a phone in ... Were you in Pennsylvania?
A. yes.
Q. Did you have a phone?
A. yes.
Q. If you were really concerned, could you have called… do you have Mr. Phillips' phone
number?
A. yes, sir... I do.
Q. Have you ever called him on the phone?
A. yes, I have.
Q. A. lot?
A. I don't know about a lot, but I do talk to him.
Q. Ok, could you have picked up the phone and called him about this situation if you felt like it,
sir or were you too busy and you didn't have a minute to call him?
A. it was a family wedding, I hadn't seen my family in years and I was really interested in my
family.
Q. Ok, well… could this guy that's really starting to concern him ... Could that have been Dr.
Murray, sir?
A. could have been.
Q. So now we know that Mr. Ortega is concerned ... Mr. Phillips is concerned about either Dr.
Murray, Michael Jackson or Kenny Ortega, right?
A. could have been.
Q. Now, is that common, that Mr. Phillips ... Strike the question. You told us you get thousands
of emails, about this project, right.
A. yes.
Q. How many did Mr. Phillips send to you and Mr. Leiweke forwarding other people's emails
about Michael Jackson's health to your private email?

A. I have no idea.
Q. Can you name a single other one, sir?
A. couldn't. I don't know.
Q. Well, sir… in this case, did you produce your emails from your private email?
A. produced everything I had.
Q. Ok, well sir, this ... This wasn't produced by you, was it?
A. I don't know who this was produced by.
Q. Now, Mr. Branca, do you know who he is, sir?
A. John Branca, he was Michael's attorney, one of them.
Q. Now let me ... Let me show you an exhibit. This is two days after the 20th of June, three days
before Michael Jackson died, right?
A. yes.
Q. And, again… this is Bugsy, even has it in his name, production manager, Michael Jackson,
slash, AEG Live, right?
A. yes.
Q. And this is about docu people, right?
A. he would be referring to our two cameramen.
Q. And those were cameramen that were going around filming things, right?
A. yes.
Q. And further into our earlier email. What did you say in the earlier email, sir… do you
remember?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Well, you would talk to him about whether to have cameras there or not have cameras, right?
A. right, some of the time we had the cameramen editing and they wouldn't show up. Michael
wasn't going to be there on this day.

Q. But it says here let's keep our two docu people out of here today. Does it say anything about
them going to edit?
A. no.
Q. It says let's keep them out of here unless they stay in the dressing room area only. Did I read
that right?
A. yes.
Q. And why were the ... Why did you want the docu people to stay in the dressing room only, sir?
A. I don't know. This was coming from Bugsy.
Q. Did you respond to this, sir?
A. I don't recall.
Q. So ... So when the documentary people were coming and not coming, you were the one in
charge of that, weren't you, sir?
A. yes.
Q. You were controlling their access, weren't you, sir?
A. I kind of just gave them free rein; but for some reason, Bugsy didn't want them there. That's
fine with me if he didn't. Michael wasn't going to be there anyway.
Q. Sir, Michael was sick at this time, wasn't he?
A. I don't know that. He showed up the next day, he was great.
Q. You didn't even see rehearsal the next day, did you, sir?
A. no, but I got reports.
Q. You got reports from Mr. Phillips, right?
A. no, from people like Bugsy and the crew.
Q. Do you have any emails from Bugsy where he said Mr. Jackson is no longer deteriorating in
front of my eyes?
A. no, I wouldn't have anything like that because my desk was right next to Bugsy’s, I keep my
offices in the production office.

Q. But he sent emails, you received emails from him before and you received this email?
A. that's why I was in ... I was out of town at the time.
Q. You were back by the 22nd, sir. You told us you came back the night before.
A. yes, this was at 7:30 at night.
Q. Right.
A. I may not have been there at this time.
Q. You got home Sunday night, you just told us.
A. yeah, and I would have been at the rehearsal that day; but whether I stayed that late or not, I
don't know.
Q. Well, you just told us he doesn't send you emails because your office is right next to him,
right?
A. not normally.
Q. But I’ve just shown you all kinds of email that he was sending to you.
A. the emails that you showed me was when I was out of town.
Q. Were you out of town here, sir?
A. no, but I may have left the rehearsal by then.
Q. Do you know what time the rehearsal started that day, sir?
A. I don't recall.
Q. Have you seen the schedule for what time the rehearsals started at the ... Where was the
rehearsal going on this date, the 22nd?
A. on the 22nd, we were in staples center. Maybe we were just moving in at that time. I'm not
sure.
Q. What time were the rehearsals at staples center, sir?
A. they varied, Kenny set the times.
Q. What times were they at?

A. on 6/22, there may not have been a rehearsal. That may ... I have to look at the schedule. It
might have been a, move in day.
Q. Didn't you just tell me that you may have already left the rehearsal?
A. I may have, yeah. Especially if it was a moving day, I wouldn't have stayed all night.
Q. But you just told us now there was no rehearsal, so what is it?
A. no, I didn't say ... I don't know if there was or not. I'd have to see if this was a rehearsal day
or a, move in, day because it's right on that cusp.
Q. Well, how would you know that you left a rehearsal that you don't know if it ever happened?
A. leaving the building, perhaps?
Q. Well ... You just told us, sir… that you may have already left the rehearsal and then you tell
me you don't even know if there was a rehearsal.
A. that's right.
Q. So what is it… you left early or you don't know if there was one?
A. I’d have to see the schedule to know if this is a, move in day, or what we actually did that day.
Q. But if there was a rehearsal, you left, right?
A. I don't know. I don't recall for sure, but that seems like a logical explanation to me, if he's
sending me an email, because normally I sat next to him.
Q. All right, sir. Where was Michael at this time?
A. I don't know.
Q. All right. Let's talk about the 24th, because you know you have at least watched one song,
right?
A. yes.
Q. And on the 24th, sir… all you could tell us is that Michael was fully engaged, correct?

A. yeah, he appeared to me to be fully engaged.
Q. Pardon me?
A. he appeared to me to be fully engaged.
Q. And fully engaged, as you told us earlier, means he was focused?
A. yes.
Q. But you didn't spend that much time at the rehearsal because you were busy with other things,
correct?
A. right, but I do recall watching ... I think it was thriller because it's the first time he ran it with
costumes, and I wanted to see what it looked like.
Q. Sir, you didn't spend much time at all at the rehearsal that day because you were busy with
other things; isn't that true?
A. I was in the venue the whole day, but I wasn't watching the rehearsal full time.
Q. Sir, you didn't spend much time at that rehearsal because you were busy with other things;
isn't that true?
A. well, your definitions are confusing me a little bit because I was at the rehearsal the entire
day, but I didn't watch what was going on onstage. I know I watched thriller, but I’m not sure I
watched anything else.
Q. Well, let's see what you testified under oath, sir.
A. ok
Mr. Panish: let's go to your testimony of September 28th
Mr. Boyle: this will be a trial exhibit
Ms. Stebbins: the only objection to this, your honor, is it's an entire testimony. I don't
think this is proper impeachment. If they want to use it for another purpose, obviously, it's
a statement by the witness, so there's not an issue with that; but I ask that the entire
document be admitted on completeness grounds.

Judge: why don't we do this…? Let's let the jury go out and we can talk about this outside
their presence. Ok, so I’m going to let you go home today, and ask that you return at 9:45
tomorrow.