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In the middle of the air that was breathed in the country in 1980, Liliana Heker decided to arm to a book of interviews on the life and the death. The project arrived at the press but, by an embezzlement of the publisher, never at the bookstores. More than twenty years later, Heker extended the original one and finishes publishing the extraordinary volume Dialogues on the life and the death, in which it includes the following interview to Jorge Luis Borges. On the verge of turning eighty years, Borges explayó not only on God, the suicide of Jesus, the beauty of the buddhism, the secret life of the plants and the true reason for its aversion to the mirrors, but also about the memories and the deaths in its family, the oldness, the hope that woke up to him to die and the frustration that it anticipated in his dream of immortality.
By Liliana Heker What suggests the word to him death? - The word death? It suggests… a great hope to me. The hope to let be. I am safe, like my father, to die body and soul. Sometimes, I feel a little unfortunate - to all he happens to us; mainly a man who is single, that is blind, that has some precious friends of course, but not many, a timid man like I; sometimes I feel sad. Worse I am consoled thinking: yes, it is question to hope. I am going to die and I am going to stop, and what I can more want than that, what more pleasing thing can have it death, that is looked as much like the dream that is perhaps most pleasing of the life. That is to say, descreo I in immortality but that it is not a source of sadness for me but of happiness: to think that I am going to stop. My father also was safe of the mortality of the soul. He said to me: “It is possible that when I am I become ill, to do a taste to him to your mother - who was catholic will call to a priest and will say some pious lies. But you do not create to me. Vos sabés that I do not believe in those things. Indeed because I do not believe in the catholic faith I can say that I believe in her; because not it volume in serious”. Yes. But my father said to me again (my father was psychology professor): “The world Is so rare that everything is possible; until the Santísima Trinidad”. As if it had said that everything is possible; until unicornio, no? Good, I am defrauding it to you here, surely. To me? For nothing. On the contrary. - I can say another thing? In the Old Testament one sees that the Jews did not believe in personal immortality; they believed in the immortality of Israel but not in the immortality of each individual; now, there is a passage in Libro de Job that seems to affirm the opposite, but that must be a trap that the translators have done, or an error of the translators. If you Lee the Old Testament is going to see that nowhere personal immortality affirms; immortality of each
The other is based on a hypothesis: the idea that the soul exists outside the body. that does not produce no beneficial result. Think that when one dies. thought that the man needed both things: the soul and the body. Now. When he is spoken of the Final Judgment insists itself on the resurrection of the meat. If that already is a so great happiness: the fact to exist. I have already lived too much. At the same time. I do not profess descreo the Jewish faith and of the immortality of the soul. I am going to tell an anecdote him of my mother. if a rib is broken. When she fulfilled ninety and five were horrified. the soul can be inmortal. Of any way. one does not say that the souls are going to be judged. of course.and all we are it to times one must thank for the fact to live. the cat hides in the kitchen or the balcony. I do not believe either in the Final Judgment. And in the man. The animals have much sensitivity. we can say that it would be slept in stones. ninety and five: it was to me the hand”. The word life. who wakes up more or less. aesthetic facts… . a green hand. in that book he says: if a person breaks a leg. people come here who love the animals. also. no). I believe that [Theodor] Fechner. Good. but that meanwhile does not exist. one says that the bodies will leave their graves. The animals have sensitivity. of this conception? . I already am tired. [Gustav] Spiller. in the animals. one leaves that karma. she said to me to me (she was very Creole): “Caramba. in which everything accident in one. is pretty. but that is a mere conjecture. know it. I would say that the concept of God is the Maxima creation of fantastic Literature. The life is in everything. the buddhism does not think that the soul exists. so she does not defraud to me in minimum. they thought that when a man dies the soul to duer to me until the day of the Final Judgment. what suggests to him? . Now. If one postulates that they are dissociated. So that supposition that the death. Of course. So that supposition that the death. Which of these conceptions seems to him most beautiful? .I believe that everybody descree. . that is inherited by another person. that is under stars”. Usually one says that body and soul are dissociated. but it does not believe in the trasmigración of the soul. It belonged to the sect of the mortalistas. When they arrive.infinite also of births. My sister is scared to them to the cats. The life… I believe that by unfortunate that one is . I believe that it is a pious fiction species. throughout his life. that the souls will qualify them and that all will be judged. the different conceptions from beyond can be considered. that backwards estimates an infinite series . and the animals. In English there is an expression: “To they green hand”.I do not know if they are dissociated.I believe that the idea of the buddhism. And they say . to exist for always? I believe that I would be quite unfortunate. she says that there is to want to the plants because the plants know that one wants them. Because if each human . [John] Milton for example.we can suppose that they dream.this I know it. who is standing up. that is a person whom it has (is a metaphor. Chesterton said: “To a man it must be enough to him to think that he is a man. The idea of God is much more strange that the idea of the Golem. Borges. What you think. a psychic organism. at least. Culprit felt.The word life? It includes everything. would be… good. doubtlessly. creates an organism that is called karma. Sure they were Christian. Borges. so that you can profess the Jewish faith sincerely and descreer of the immortality of the soul. this says a correntina to it that I have here to my service. the idea of the trasmigración.individual affirms to the immortality of Israel but not it. and that that organism is inherited by another man. There is a book of an English psychologist. I believe that experiments have become lately on the sensitivity of the plants. soon he revives and he receives an eternal punishment or an eternal prize. I have seventy and nine years and at any time I fulfill eighty and I realize of which already I have passed my limit. is going to obtain that the soul knows another kingdom. now. that comes to be a total accident. is going to improve this. I have a cat here. The buddhism supposes that all man. who was a theologian. a German philosopher. if they give a blow him in the head. Borges. is saying.I believe yes that. My mother arrived at the ninety and nine years. Then that life. when my sister comes. soon in the plants . no? It seems to me that that is a good argument. like creations of the man. a person who has good hand for the plants. the cat comes running. thought that everything has life. Of there the permanence of the soul usually concludes after the physical death.
My mother also died in her house and my father. in Puerto Rico. says that he was dying and who he wrote.I suppose that he invented it because no other biographer says that. It had a chair in the University of Stones. .I have seen die to five people in my life. that previous life estimates another one. I studied mathematical. This very strange case happened to them to two brothers. that always estimates a previous cause. German poet that was made Communist later. The poem finishes thus: Under starb ehr Scheibed. thought about something much smaller.Good. no? You mentioned the case of an own death. if you are unfortunate. I have seen die to my two grandmothers. when saying that. that he thought that still a last load could be tried. author of a History of the Modernismo. and if it does not arrive there at Nirvana . It had remained died while it was going to give a class. one. you have deserved the misfortune. of two shots. But memory own deaths also. Max Henríquez Ureña. Yes clear. if you are born intelligent you are because she has deserved to be born intelligent. I mean strictly infinitely. he is well. He does not arrive themselves at him by progression. I read a poem of Johannes Becher. on the death of Goethe. The other followed a conversation.destiny is a consequence of the previous destiny . Now. for example. so I at least have an idea of the infinite thing.by example. he does not arrive at that number. has lived an infinite number of times.one already it is left outside the wheel of the law one will also live an infinite number of times. he said that no. and they followed it like fifteen or twenty gauchos. He took the train. had a very similar death. I watch.it is not the case of entering them had solved to die. Conoce cases paradoxical deaths. I have seen die to the natural daughter of my grandfathers. that is to say. and between the infinite numbers. the brother of him. grants to everyone his own death”. Séneca says “morire sua exactly morte”: to die its death. I believe that it is an invention of Becher. and I have read several biographies of Goethe-. if each life estimates a previous life. But when I say infinite I do not mean indefinite. within each one of the chaste ones of India. and the heart was also had left dead of an attack. my grandfathers Borges. Somewhere he says that before people were born in her house and died in his house. have seen die to my father. Pedro Henríquez Ureña had a chair in the University of the Silver and had to take the train in Constitution. he wrote in the air. which each one of us. Both brothers died fulfilling their destiny pedagogical. there is one who thinks that Rilke. Moor no. Henríquez Ureña did not answer to him: it had remained died of an attack to the heart. Then. That is to say. but the idea of Séneca is prettier that the death must correspond to the life. and who soon erased a line and put another one… Now. if it is born. if you are born just you are because she has deserved to be born just. and she had been born in that house. It can be that Rilke talks about that. and nobody does not die either in its house.I believe that that idea took Rilke de Séneca. he speaks there of the infinite numbers. and this follows until the infinite. two. Now. a doctor. if you count. He says . he was all his life professor. thus. not to galope but . when Mitre had capitulated already. Now. It put poncho white. They are pretty deaths. advanced towards enemy trenches. The name of the other was with him… no longer memory. for example. he put his books in the network. It had arrived behind schedule and one hurried. That means that the style of the death is the style of the life. Today nobody is born in its house. and have seen kill to a man in the border of Brazil. that would be exactly the death of a writer. for political reasons . For example. He says that he wrote. Yes. Good. You think that there are a “own death” that must correspond to him to each man? . good. four. . one seated. I. Rainer Maria Rilke said: “Sir. “and thus died writing”.And you must have read something on the theory of the sets. it is because you have deserved that chaste one. . have been born in the house of my mother. and follows infinitely. mounted in a horse Moor… no. tordillo. of [George] Singer. one was Pedro Henríquez Ureña. three. deaths whose style is totally in opposition to the style of the life? . And the train left and it ran. after the battle of Green Island. aleph. according to the buddhism. and that now people are born in a sanatorium and die in a sanatorium. but what she matters that is an invention. He says something that I have not seen confirmed in any biography of Goethe but who he is very pretty. in the street Tucumán and Suipacha. if you are born blind you are because she has deserved to be born blind. simply. I would say that there are paradoxical deaths.
It said that a library. I' m dying very slowly. but. and he was dictating to the disc. there is no reason so that you are excited all”. Perhaps what it happens with Sartre is that. I believe that the grace is that one. no. it is that I only talked about to write. I must continue working. There. Is' m only an old woman. no? Yes. that was wishing the death. there they were defeated and he was made kill. that did not consist of any book but that it had the advantage to omit Jane Austen. There it is the picture of them. On the contrary. already is that advantage. It was an own death. which happens with those phrases… I remember a phrase. no? You once mentioned a phrase of Mark Twain who to me fascinated me by his cruelty. less concise much more. the campaign of the Desert.he was three or four days before its death and she said to us: “What happens here it does not have anything of individual. I can tell an anecdote him on my English grandmother. He campaigned all of Paraguay. He initiated his military specialty like defender of the surrounded seat of Montevideo. So that that one would come to be its own death. is that it cannot dictate: it needs. the agony of my grandmother also. I am a very old woman who is dying very slowly. and the tree that he had planted. the phonograph. . the act to write. one always dies too much behind schedule. In general.Good. When I was in Junín they showed a street to me that takes the name of him. he received two bullets of Remington and he died on the following day in a field hospital.to trote and with the crossed arms. Because I have seen long agonies: the agony of my mother. Indeed. Memory a phrase of him: “I do not ask of what race is a man. nothing interesting in all that. the campaign against the montoneros of Lopez Jordán. all person who dies tends to dramatize her death. It planted in the year `71. He said: “A good library Could begin omitting the books of Jane Austen. he does not matter to me that she is right or no. If you. he put. I am a very old woman who is dying very slowly. He had been welded all his life. through its philosophy. One rose at night. Because not always receipt pleasing visits like the one of you. Sartre says that always it dies too much soon or too much behind schedule. and she called us to its piece . it could see his death as if outside another person. Another thing that happens to him. the agony of my father. But there are many writers who have dictated. for . Sartre is a very rare person. it was made palabrero. what place occupies in the social scale. what not it can is to correct more. In 1871. it had discs and it liked to dictate to discs. Although that library did not include any other book would be better than many others not to include Jane Austen”. the phrase is better. The idea of an ideal library. to the fifteen years. if she is very ingenious. She was a very brave woman. She was dying. what another thing I can do but write? And that I do not do it by vanity but because I must populate my time with some way. Because the overwhelming thing is the mechanism. there is nothing no interesting in this”. no? It does not have books but lack Jane Austen. soon participated in that revolution. made a valuation of the glance. the family oía to speak single. Sartre let write when blind person remained. you could change the name of Jane Austen by any other and the phrase would not lose anything. He is enough to me whereupon he is a human being: worse than that he cannot be”. I do not understand that. I do not know. of Angel Battistesa. but without books. Thanks. by incomplete that outside. On the contrary. the death of a soldier. Which would be for you its own death? . After all. it was as brave as the husband of her when it was made kill in Green Island.From as soon as I believe that never she dies too much soon. which I would want I would be to die suddenly. and that influenced its style. I create. One waits for the opposite. to any person.I am going to turn eighty years in August unavoidably must be inferior to which wrote nevertheless when he was young.No. offering a target. what brave. but that had discs and recorded. Henry James let write and dictated. for example. The first writer who did not write directly. You are in agreement with this affirmation? . already would be considered… . was Mark Twain. good. I have thought: now that I am blind. what religion professes. because what justification has my life if nonwork? I know that what I write now . instead of putting Jane Austen.Good. Mark Twain very was interested in which was a new invention. not to include works of. An ideal library. Nothing interesting in this. and to the seventeen years he was in the battle of Caretakers. she said: “No. physically.
when he saw that God had not saved it. Borges. Or I believe that that one is the correct thought. which one thinks is that rather He thought that God was going to save it. you are going to give to return the tape. doctor Gazzano. in addition. that my image in the mirror made things that I did not do. No. that comes from my childhood. because the theory seems false to me. a shade of one shades. and later it made the bust. psychiatrist. Borges. that is to say. felt betrayed by God. to me it was slept. It was a copy. was on the awares. Plotino refused to that they did pictures to him because did not want that its death its image survived to him… . A religion that at the top has suicidal . we say. Jesus was God. Pero Plotino did not want. for example. The fear that I had. I did not have idea of philosophers of any species.example. and therefore. Excuse. like .What do there? Ayudan to people to kill itself? What another attendance can be given a suicidal one. the picture is going to be the shade of a shade. I felt fear of the mirrors. the idea of Plotino was this one. But. I do not create. There.and a that suicidal one. but that one was the human part of Him. that can be the archetype of the man. and my name. it was a suicide. but the fear mine was different. but no. the catholics condemn the suicide and I do not manage to explain myself so that. but is better that. In my piece hamburgués was an enormous furniture. It always lived with that fear. and that remembered some story or some verse mine. and with the image more faithful than it can be possible? . Who takes part more in this book? Professor Croatto. good. who directed the Center of Attendance to Suicida… . . if He had been made man. Does not think that there is a contradiction between this desire and the exercise of Literature? Does not imply Literature the will to be.In reality. In addition. drawings. so that you have left to me? ”. and man. That is to say. the escultor went to the class of him. in the end. he thought that there was an ideal man. You have often said that she wanted the forgetfulness. if you want to publish it. but it had been able to correct all that asking to him my family who extinguished the light of the hall that was alongside. we say. or perhaps an ideal Plotino. If It had come to be crucificado. professor of compared religions. so that it protested when that destiny was fulfilled for which He had been born. And it was the human part the one that resisted. made sketches. is God and that condemns the suicide. so that I saw triplicate. . and that I did not trust to anybody by my timid phase. with three mirrors. I say to them: if Jesus committed suicide according to you… And nowhere is explained that contradiction? . Because it is understood that the sacrifice of Jesus was voluntary. It is very rare.No. but I am a shade and a picture becomes mine. publishes it. he said: I am a shade. my picture will be the shade of a shade. the bed era of mahogany. That is the interpretation that occurs. he would be the same. I do not say this against Battistesa. but I would want that she forgot my biography. That is the fear that I had. I suppose that it must of being all the opposite. watched to me in the mirrors. if He had condescendido to the meat. I had many nightmares with mirrors. my fear was that the mirror began to live on a different way. already would be a good library. according to the theologians? All this that I say to him. it gave account me of which nothing moved. when the condemned saw itself. I would want to survive in my work. before sleeping the piece was not to dark.No. Plotino believed in the platonic archetypes. when I did not know that Plotino existed. If all we say the same it does not have sense. but is not very satisfactory. then. no.Yes. No. it said. If I am already a shade. I. because they wanted to make a bust of him. that has some entailment with its own aversion to the mirrors? . If I had said to my parents who extinguished the light of the neighboring piece… But I did not animate myself to never say it.It is well. only the real thing is my archetype. If it did not include works of Borges. no? Good. No. any picture would be a copy of a copy. That is to say: the version that they have is this one: according to them. to be crucificado.What rare thing that the catholics condemn the suicide when the own Jesus Christ was a suicidal one. It seems yes to me that. For that reason Christ could say (last night I was speaking of this with a friend mine): “God. the second person of the Trinidad. and then. Yes. Surely that is going to be different that what the others say.
Parting is all we know of Heaven. one has the hope of which the work survives.subject of an article in an encyclopedia. it was grammarian and said something as well as: Je meurs.I believe that while still alive of her two of their poems were published nothing else and. because. What pretty one to think that one precise one of hell. It sounds very heavy. For example. but it did not get to do it. and the ambition mine was that milongas was known and the name of the author was not discovered. And Kafka also. no? Ralph was friend of  Emerson. “I die can also say myself: I die”. there is a very pretty episode. the book was unfinished. nonmemory the name at this moment. [Rudyard] Kipling. no? Good. I have written milongas. people knew that she wrote verses . there is another chaos that yes can be more serious. and Kipling says): They have riden the lob moon out of the sky. he persecutes it. It died in his law. But he can survive anonymously. At the same time. if no. in its drawers they found hundreds or thousands of verses. When one takes leave of somebody. no? . Does not think that at heart no artist. The English words are very brief. one knows that that one is the last time. occur the Maxima simultaneously is present at and the Maxima absence. When she died. I want to say that in the goodbye they occur simultaneously (I suppose that he is that what she meant). Parting is all we know of Heaven. She lived all her life there. To ride until the moon is outside the sky. many do not have value. I was rereading the ballad of the East and the West. And I am thinking to write a book counting different deaths and agonies. he had not concluded it. In Spanish you cannot say that. Soon. And it did not want to publish nothing. no. but those that I remember of her are the prettiest verses. the moment of the goodbye is the most intense moment in the relation between two people. because she took care of much the form. no? Parting is all… you know English. I believe that she was on the verge of marrying and she did not do it. . ] Mujica Lainez said [Manuel to me that it really needed two sonetos for each soneto Shakespeare. Emily is the one of the great North American writer Dickinson. it wanted to be Hamlet or . She died.Yes. Emily Dickinson said: “I do not believe that the publicity is part of the destiny of a writer”. Which considers oprobiosa of the deaths that know? And the noblest which? . But I have not arrived at that. to dramatize itself. not to leave signs? .Oprobiosa it is one long agony. no? In their Literature. and they published them. The poems I do not know if they can survive in the translation. want to disappear. But at the same time they knew that the friends were going to disobey them. on peut dire aussi: je me meurs. and now do not know if they have published all. a town like other towns of the New England. in the case of Virgilio. a goodbye is the two things. Virgilio wanted to burn the Eneida. The English poetry in general. better.I believe that. the English is a very physical language. a little lost. and all we need of Hell: The goodbye is everything what we know of the Sky. and ride all the night.In addition there is another thing. people found her work. when one writes. and all we need of Hell. also. They say that [François] Rabelais said: Perhaps “I go towards the great one”. But she had not wanted to publish them. He died in his law.When I was young I tended to the sadness. a thief of horses in Gwana. better. what devises rare. And noblest it is an abrupt death. is evident. corresponded itself with him. and no human being. which he wanted to make clear was that he did not consider that the Eneida was perfect. Kafka entrusted the disappearance of his work less nothing than to his friend Max Brod. the English has the possibility of verbs with you preposition that they do not exist in Spanish. no? it died being a grammarian. In addition. How was modifying its conception of the life and the death through the different stages from its life? . Perhaps. if he can be part of the language or the tradition. they had burned it they. in the New England. the personages often vindicate themselves by a violent death. I believe that. and found this line (is an English military man whom she persecutes to a cuatrero. I do not know if it can survive in the translation. But she did not say anything. I was in the house of her. At the same time she did not destroy them either. I have taken care much of the death. They told the death me of a French grammarian. Good. You complete different words. Prettiest. What he meant era: I do not assume the responsibility of that work. No. In addition. and everything what we needed Hell. Him grand peutêtre. And the letters of her are very pretty also. That also is an own death. Who was? Good. one is more with that person than if one sees it vulgarly. .
Except for if it is believed in the trasmigración. He says that. what horror”. no. you are mentioning the poem Of Rerum Natura. I was dead during the site of Troy”. and said: who complain to die body and soul must complain also not to have lived in the past. I must excuse me by the excess of conferences. but does not think: “what horror. Because Lucrecio did not believe in immortality. if to anybody he hurts to him not to have been present in the site of Troy what matters that he is not present in the next wars. had to do it) a day said to me: “You are made Gallego unbearable”.Good. I became unbearable Gallego speaking and speaking. in fact. What produces greater nostalgia to him: knowledge that will not be in the future or knowledge that are been dead for the past? . Then yes it is possible to be had been in Troy. of Lucrecio.No. . Borges. . That is in the poem of Lucrecio. and now no longer. I greet it. I believe that I have been too prattling. Watch that I have read and have found that idea solely in the poem Of Rerum Natura enough. There is a death of which it is never spoken: the death backwards. You and I. Memory that a nephew mine (I gave many lectures. . Lucrecio says: people think “I am going to die. the men follow. But what rare that you have had that idea. I do not know if it wants to add another thing. Lucrecio! Thanks. That yes that did not know it. were called Aquiles and Héctor. the world follows. of Lucrecio.Raskolnikoff.Good.
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