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JACKSON V AEG June 24

th
2013 Gordon Matheson
Dr. Gordon Matheson
(Director of Sports Medicine, Stanford University and Conflict of Interest Expert)
Plaintiff's Expert Witness.
(Hearing held in open court prior to jury entering):
Judge: Did yo !ant to tal" to #e$
Mr. Panish: %es, yor &onor. W&at t&e intentions today !ere !as to co#plete a'ot a
&alf an &or of Dr. Earley. (&ere !as one )estion !&ere !e stopped. Ms. Ca&an !old
li"e to ar*e, and t&en !e'll finis& after t&at. I "no! +d*e finis&ed Mr. ,ei!e"e. I "no!
t&at too" so#e ti#e, so t&an" yo. -t I t&in" ri*&t no! !e +st &ave to &ave ar*#ent
fro# Ms. Ca&an. S&e !anted to ar*e a specific portion. Do yo &ave t&e transcript$
Judge: (&e transcript$ I'# sre I do.
Mr. Boyle: .nd also, yor &onor, if yo &ave yor order on earley.

Judge: I'# sre I do so#e!&ere.


Mr. Boyle: I &ave an extra copy.
Judge: Well, do yo &ave a copy of t&e order$
Mr. Boyle: %o "no! !&at$ I can *ive yo t&e one pa*e (indicatin*).
Mr. Panish: It's s'+ect to t&is.
Judge: /"ay. .nd yo can read #e t&e relevant portions$
Ms. Cahan: %es, yor &onor. So t&e testi#ony in )estion is at pa*e 001, lines 2 to 023
Question: "As you sit here today, do you have an opinion with regard to Mr. Jackson's
life expectancy"
Answer: "! do."
Question: "And what is that opinion"
Answer: ""hat opinion is that the ## there are $ultiple reasons why he could die
pre$aturely or have catastrophic conse%uences for his su&stance use and a&use. And
specifically, the use of propofol, the addiction to opioids, and the synergy &etween
$ultiple drugs that he took." and the o&'ection was sustained as outside the scope. (ut
there are several portions of testi$ony that were designated &y )laintiffs that address
specifics of his opinion a&out life expectancy and whether he considered certain things.
Judge: (&ere #ay 'e. W&y don't yo point t&e# ot$
Ms. Cahan: So at pa*e 041, for exa#ple 55 and t&ere are n#eros 55 at lines 01, to
pa*e 046, line 73
Question: "And, sir, what data has &een taken with regard to su&oxone treat$ent and
life expectancy with regard to opiate addicts" and he already expressed an opinion that
Mr. Jackson was addicted, to date.
Answer: "*o outco$e, treat$ent definitely saves lives if you can get an individual to only
take the su&oxone, to fully disclose all of their sources of other drugs, to agree to
rando$ urine drug screens and +ero &en+odia+epines, &ecause there's a synergistic
effect of &en+odia+epine and su&oxone which also causes pre$ature death. *o all of
those things, if you have all of those conditions, that can definitely save lives."
Question: "And could it have saved Mr. Jackson's life"
Answer: "!t could have." so that's 'ust one exa$ple. (ut there, if you're allowing in the
testi$ony a&out what su&oxone could have done, &ut not including the &aseline
opinions a&out the effect of drug use, and what Mr. Jackson was addicted to on his life
expectancy, it gives a very skewed perspective. And so we think those ,- lines or so
should &e played for the 'ury.

Judge: /"ay.
Mr. Boyle: %or &onor, !&en !e did t&ese desi*nations, !e intended to stay a!ay fro#
all t&in*s life expectancy for a cople of reasons. /ne, t&at !e don't t&in" Dr. Earley is a
lifeexpectancy expert. (&ey also &ave an actary !&o !as t&e s'+ect of a #otion in
li#ine, and +d*e rled t&e actary cold co#e testify a'ot life expectancy. -t t&at's
really a separate isse. We 'elieve t&at yor &onor !as correct, t&at t&at !as otside
t&e scope, 'ecase I focsed #y desi*nations of Dr. Earley on addiction isses, not life5
expectancy isses. 8o!, if t&ey're *oin* to 'rin* ot Dr. Earley &ere, any!ay, &e can
'rin* ot all t&ese life5expectancy isses. .nd I t&in" t&e s'oxone clip s&e +st read is
really a'ot s'oxone, !&ic& is a treat#ent for opioids. It !as not intended to 'e a life5
expectancy clip. If yor &onor does t&in" t&at #a"es it related to t&at, I !ill !it&dra!
!&at s&e +st read, also, and t&en t&at !old ta"e it ot co#pletely otside t&e scope.
Ms. Cahan: (&ere are several ot&er exa#ples of !&at !as in t&e ori*inal desi*nations.
.nd, yor &onor, to 'e clear, !e are *oin* to call Dr. Earley. We do intend to call Dr.
Earley to testify in or case, !&ic& is !&y !e conter5 desi*nated +st t&is one, very
s#all 55 &e *oes on at len*t& in &is deposition a'ot life expectancy. We contered +st
t&is one very s#all piece +st to *et t&e 'aseline 'ecase t&ere are so #any )estions 55
Judge: Can I as" yo, did yo call &i# for t&e prpose of esta'lis&in* life expectancy$
Ms. Cahan: %es. 9e !as desi*nated as an expert on life expectancy as it relates to se
and a'se of dr*s, and t&ey did not #ove to exclde &i# on t&at 'asis.
Mr. Boyle: We, of corse, reserve t&e ri*&t 55 t&ey &ave t!o ot&er people t&ey
desi*nated, also, on life expectancy. So at t&e ri*&t ti#e, !e !ill #a"e or #otion on
c#lative, if t&ey try to 'rin* in t&ree experts to tal" a'ot it.
Ms. Cahan: .nd, yor &onor, !e &ave an actary !&o can tal" a'ot life expectancy,
and ta'les and &o! t&ose !or". Dr. Earley's specialty is addiction, a #edicine doctor.
9e's t&e only !itness !e &ave !&o is *oin* to 'e testifyin* a'ot t&e effect of Mr.
:ac"son's dr* se on &is life expectancy. .nd I'd 'e &appy to *ive yo additional
exa#ples of !&at !as desi*nated.
Judge: Did yo s&o! 55 I'# sorry. Mr. -oyle$
Mr. Boyle: -oyle. 8o pro'le#. It's #y 'irt&day today, too.
Judge: ,on* !ee"end.
Mr. Boyle: (&e ot&er references 55 &e's only 'een &ere for #ont&s.
Mr. Panish: (&at's all ri*&t.
Ms. Cahan: %es, yor &onor. ;or exa#ple, at pa*e 077, at line <0, !&ic& is anot&er
Plaintiffs' desi*nation, t&ere's a )estion3
"!f Mr. Jackson had &een given appropriate treat$ent and had he accepted that, he
could have at least perhaps gotten over the hu$p on the road to recovery. correct"

Answer: "that ## you're assu$ing lots of different varia&les, and ! think there are other
varia&les, too, for his progress long ter$, like his love for his children. /is dedication to
his children would certainly help." this is 'ust a couple of a nu$&er of exa$ples. "he life#
expectancy issue ca$e out throughout and wasn't designated, and 'ust these ,- lines,
and they can cross hi$ on it when he co$es to testify live. ! do think it's necessary to set
the stage for the ## and get the proper context for the testi$ony designated.
Mr. Boyle: Well, yor &onor, a*ain, !&at s&e +st read, I t&in", !as a )estion a'ot
addiction, cold &e *et over &is addiction. %o "no!, t&at !as not intended to elicit any
life5expectancy testi#ony. 8o!, all of t&is said, if t&ey are representin* to t&is cort t&at
t&ey are 'rin*in* &i# so !e can properly cross5exa#ine &i# on &is opinion, t&en #y
concern a'ot t&is 'ein* played *oes a!ay. -t I need a representation fro# t&e#.
Judge: Well, I t&in" I'll overrle it nless yo !ant to !it&dra! t&e )estion. .nd if &e
s&o!s p, s&e can 'rin* it p, and yo can cross5exa#ine.
Mr. Boyle: I'# confsed. So yo'll contine !it& yor overrlin* of t&eir o'+ection$
Ms. Cahan: S&e sstained yor o'+ection.
Mr. Boyle: =i*&t. I'# sorry. So yo'll overrle it nless !e !ant to !it&dra! t&e
)estion$ I'# sorry.
Judge: 8o. I'# sstainin* t&e o'+ection 55 !ait a #inte.
Ms. Cahan: %or &onor, if yo !ere to allo! t&e testi#ony 55
Mr. Panish: Mst &ave 'een a *ood !ee"end.
Ms. Cahan: %or &onor, t&is !as a conter5desi*nation t&at defendants #ade. Plaintiffs
o'+ected, and t&e o'+ection !as sstained. So as of no!, t&at s#all piece of testi#ony is
not *oin* to 'e played.
Judge: /"ay. I'# *oin* to overrle it, t&en, nless t&ey !ant to !it&dra!.
Mr. Panish: Well, !e !it&dra! t&at ot&er portion.
Mr. Boyle: %ea&. We !ill !it&dra! t&at ot&er portion.
Judge: /"ay. So t&ey !it&dra! it, so 55
Ms. Cahan: /"ay. So yo !ant all t&e varios pa*es and lines 55
Mr. Boyle: %o've only #entioned t!o.
Mr. Panish: (&e ot&er one doesn't &ave to do !it& it.
Ms. Cahan: I &ave one, t!o 55
Mr. Boyle: %or &onor, !e can #a"e t&is really easy. We can leave it all in if t&ey're

*oin* to 'rin* Dr. Earley.


Ms. Cahan: It's or present intention to 'rin* &i#. /'viosly, it !ill depend on !&at
&appens !it& t&e rest of t&e case.
Mr. Panish: We !ant &i# to co#e, so 55
Ms. Cahan: Well, yo s'poenaed &i#. .nd yo &ad a c&oice to call &i# live or to se
t&is deposition. (&is is !&ere !e all started six !ee"s a*o.
Mr. Panish: We didn't, 'ecase yo represented yo !ere *oin* to 'rin* &i# to testify.
8o! yo're tellin* s it's only yor intention. So if yo #a"e a representation t&at &e !ill
a'soltely 'e &ere, t&en yo can play t&at. -t if yo're not !illin* to #a"e t&at
representation for s to cross5exa#ine &i#, t&en !e'll pll ot t&e part a'ot s'oxone,
and it !on't co#e in 'ecase &e !oldn't 'e a'le to 'e cross5exa#ined on t&ose
opinions.
Ms. Cahan: .nd, yor &onor, t&ere !old 'e five desi*nations t&at !e t&in" !old need
to 'e re#oved.
Mr. Boyle: /"ay. We !ill *o t&ro*& t&e#.
Mr. Panish: (&e ot&er one doesn't &ave anyt&in* to do !it& it. (&at &as not&in* to do
!it& life expectancy. (&e first one, s'oxone, yes> 't t&e second one s&e +st read,
pa*e 077 55
Judge: I t&in" t&at one +st said &e !old #a"e a speedy recovery.
Mr. Boyle: =i*&t.
Mr. Panish: =i*&t.
Judge: So I don't t&in" t&at necessarily tal"s 55
Ms. Cahan: So t&e first one is at pa*e 0?6, line <?. It 'e*ins3
Question: "*ir, if Mr. Jackson were addicted to propofol, what would your opinion &e with
regard to his life expectancy &e"
Mr. Panish: Well, t&at's 55
Ms. Cahan: (&e ans!er t&ro*& 040 at line 6.
Mr. Panish: /"ay. We'll ta"e t&at ot.
Ms. Cahan: /"ay.
Mr. Panish: 0?6@<? 55
Ms. Cahan: (o 040, line 6.

Mr. Panish: 040, line 6. /"ay.


Ms. Cahan: .nd t&e next is t&e s'oxone one !e already discssed. Pa*e 041, line 01.
Mr. Panish: =i*&t.
Ms. Cahan: .nd t&at desi*nation ends 046@7.
Mr. Panish: /"ay.
Mr. Boyle: We'll ta"e t&at one ot, too.
Ms. Cahan: /"ay. .nd t&en pa*e 07?, line 01.
Mr. Panish: 9old on.
Ms. Cahan: Aestion is3 "*ir, ! want to talk a&out prognosis. And is it a fair state$ent
that in order to give a full prognosis of so$ething like so$eone's life expectancy, it's
helpful if you were a&le to actually $eet the person"
Mr. Panish: W&ere does t&at end$
Ms. Cahan: .nd t&at *oes 55 !ell, I t&in" t&ere's +st a portion of t&e desi*nation, so t&at
pro'a'ly *oes to pa*e 074, line <.
Mr. Panish: /"ay. Wait a #inte. (&at's 0 55
Ms. Cahan: 07?@01 to 074@<.
Mr. Panish: /"ay. Botc&a.
Ms. Cahan: .nd t&e last one is 077@<0.
Mr. Boyle: We already did t&at one. .nd t&is is t&e one, yor &onor, did not t&in" !as
related. (&is is t&e one a'ot appropriate treat#ent for addiction. Cold &e &ave *otten
on t&e road to recovery. So I t&in" t&at can stay.
Ms. Cahan: /"ay.
Mr. Panish: So !e &ave 0?6@<? to 040@6> 041@00 55
Ms. Cahan: 01.
Mr. Panish: 55 01. Coldn't read #y o!n !ritin*. (o 046 55
Ms. Cahan: 7.
Mr. Panish: /"ay. .nd 07?@01 to 074@<.
Ms. Cahan: %es. .nd all t&ose !ill co#e ot.

Mr. Panish: We're *oin* to do t&at ri*&t t&is second. .nd ot&er t&an t&at 55 o'viosly,
!as t&at one of #y red ones t&at initially started t&is !&ole t&in*$
Ms. Cahan: (&at !as not inclded in #y crrent edit. .nd, yor &onor, *oin* for!ard,
!e !ill 'e 55
Mr. Boyle: .nd I a*reed earlier today to sit do!n and sort of tal" t&ro*& a lot of t&ese
ot&er isses !it& ot&er desi*nations, 'ecase !e don't !ant to ta"e p too #c& of
+d*e's ti#e.
Judge: I !as t&in"in* yo !old, 'ecase I &ave so#e )estion #ar"s, any!ay. I
fi*red yo tal"ed to eac& ot&er.
Mr. Boyle: /n t&e ne!, yes.
Ms. Steins: /n t&e nde cons#ption of +d*e's ti#e, yor &onor, o'viosly,
Plaintiffs &ave a n#'er of experts, and pretrial a n#'er of #otions in li#ine !ere
directed at certain opinions of t&e expert. (&e case la! is fCCy a'ot !&et&er !e &ave
to rene! t&ose o'+ections a*ain at trial. So for t&e sa"e of t&e record, yor &onor, I'd li"e
to rene! #y o'+ections to Dr. Mat&eson's testi#ony and say !e do not 'elieve &e
possesses t&e scope and expertise necessary to *ive t&e opinions !&ic& &e offered. If
yor &onor intends not to revisit any of t&ose #otions in li#ine, !e'd li"e yo to say so
!e can stop ta"in* p ti#e. -t ot&er!ise, I !anted to 'riefly reraise t&e isse to #a"e
sre yor &onor did not !ant to entertain any additional ar*#ent on t&at.
Judge: If yo feel it necessary to say it a*ain on t&e record, feel free to do t&at. -t I
don't !ant to add ar*#ent to it nless t&ere's so#et&in* ne! yo're addin*.
Ms. Steins: (&e one piece t&at is ne! t&at I !old add, yor &onor, is t&at Dr.
Mat&eson's testi#ony relates pri#arily to t&e area of conflict of interest. Plaintiffs &ave
elicited a s'stantial a#ont of testi#ony on t&at s'+ect already. We &eard fro# t&eir
#sic expert, Mr. -er#an, last !ee". I 'elieve t&is is *ettin* a 'it c#lative !it&
Mat&eson's testi#ony. So t&at !old 'e additional *ronds for o'+ectin* to it.
Judge: If I re#e#'er, if *ordon Mat&eson is t&e person I'# t&in"in* of, &e's a Stanford
person.
Ms. Steins: Sports doctor.
Mr. Panish: Sports #edicine, and conflict of interest expertise.
Judge: .nd et&ics.
Ms. Steins: %or &onor, &e actally stated &e's not an expert in #edical et&ics
*enerally. 9e clai#s &e's an expert in sports #edicine et&ics 't not *eneral #edical
et&ics.
Mr. Panish: 9e actally esta'lis&ed t&at !it& CondoleeCCa =ice !&o !as t&e Provost at
t&e University at t&e ti#e.
Judge: /"ay. I'll overrle t&e o'+ection.

Mr. Panish: /"ay. I t&in" !e're o"ay, +d*e, to *o for!ard.


Judge: Did yo #a"e t&e edits$
Mr. Panish: %ea&. I *ave it to &i#. If t&ere's a pro'le#, Ms. Ca&an !ill certainly let s
"no!.
Ms. Cahan: I certainly !ill.
Judge: Still !aitin* for t!o +rors.
(rie! pause in the proceedings)
(the jury enters the courtroo")
Judge: Plaintiffs' consel #ay call t&eir next !itness, or are yo finis&in* !it& a !itness$
Mr. Panish: We're finis&in* !it& t&e videotape of Dr. Earley t&at !e started so#eti#e
last !ee".
Judge: /"ay. (&an" yo.
(a #ideo clip o! Dr. $arly%s deposition is played)
Mr. Boyle: %or &onor, at t&is ti#e Plaintiffs !old li"e to #ove into evidence defense
ex&i'it 02,D0<. .nd t&is is t&e 55 t&is !as ex&i'it 4 fro# Dr. Earley's deposition. .nd it is
t&e stdy t&at &e is referrin* to ri*&t no! called, E.ddiction to propofol, a stdy of <<
treat#ent cases.E Defense ex&i'it 02,D0<, and t&e stdy !as fnded 'y .EB ,ive.
Judge: /"ay. (&an" yo. 02,D0< is in evidence.
Mr. Boyle: (&an" yo, yor &onor.

(Plainti!!s% e&hiit no. '()*'+) a study entitled) ,-ddiction to propo!ol) a study o! ++
treat"ent cases), .as "ar/ed and recei#ed in e#idence.)
Ms. Cahan: .nd t&ere's a correction t&ere to t&e transcript3 EBordonE !as c&an*ed to
ESanders.E
(a #ideo clip o! Dr. $arly%s deposition is played)

Mr. Panish: Stop.


Ms. Cahan: (&at !as a conter t&at !as allo!ed in. 0?6 is !&ere !e're stoppin*.
Mr. Panish: /"ay. Bo a&ead.
Ms. Cahan: Can !e re!ind 'ac" to t&e 'e*innin* of t&at )estion$
Mr. Boyle: Can !e &ave a side'ar, yor &onor$
Judge: /"ay.

(Sidear):
Ms. Cahan: (&ere !ere a cople of conters t&at !ere allo!ed in, so !e !ere dealin*
!it& t&e desi*nation inconsistency. -t t&at !as a conter5desi*nation t&at !as allo!ed
in and yo *ys !ere fine !it&.
Mr. Panish: -t t&is is 55 t&is is pa*e 0<2@04 55
Ms. Cahan: U&5&&.
Mr. Panish: 55 to 0<?@0<, and !&at t&is deals !it& is life expectancy, t&e sa#e isse t&at
!e &ad t&e ot&er isse !it&.
Mr. Boyle: We !old !it&dra! t&at.
Mr. Panish: (&at s&oldn't 'e in t&ere. It's t&e sa#e isse. It says 55 I #ean, I don't !ant
to read t&e !&ole t&in*, 't t&e ans!er is 55 or t&e )estion !as 55
Ms. Cahan: (&at !as a conter t&at !asn't o'+ected to.
Mr. Panish: -t t&at's 'efore !e too" t&e ot&ers ot.
Ms. Cahan: We didn't discss t&is at t&e side'ar or earlier.
Mr. Panish: We didn't 55 I don't t&in" !e did discss it.
Mr. Ptna#3 .ll t&ey're sayin* is t&ey !old no! li"e to o'+ect to it.
Mr. Panish: Well, in li*&t of t&e ot&er 55 pllin* ot t&e life5expectancy )estions, to 'e
consistent. .nd !&en I read t&is, I t&o*&t it !as t&e sa#e )estion. .nd I sa! t&e
ans!er, and t&at's !&y I t&o*&t t&at it s&oldn't &ave 'een in t&ere. -t Ms. Ca&an
appropriately, I *ess, told #e t&is is not !&at !e &ad discssed. So it !asn't !&at !e
discssed.
Ms. Cahan: %o !ant to ar*e t&at no!$

Mr. Putna": %o #ay !ant to loo" to see if t&ere are ot&ers.


Judge: (&at's t&e pro'le# !&en yo "ind of 55
Mr. Panish: I "no!. /n t&e fly.
Judge: /n t&e fly.
Mr. Panish: So t&at's 0<2@04 to 0<?@0<. .nd t&en !e're *oin* to co#e to 041@01.
Ms. Cahan: (&at is ot.
Mr. Boyle: -rian, it s&old *o 0<2@04 t&ro*& 0<4@<4.
Ms. Cahan: I don't see a pro'le# !it& 0<4@< to <4. (&ere is no discssion of life
expectancy t&ere.
Mr. Boyle: /"ay. In t&e context of t&e a'ove, it !old 'e a pro'le#, 't if t&e a'ove is
ot, I a*ree. It appears to 'e +st on addiction.
Mr. Panish: /"ay.
Ms. Cahan: %o didn't ar*e t&at 0<2@<0 to 0<?@0< s&old 'e exclded. %o didn't o'+ect
to t&at conter.
Mr. Panish: Well, li"e !e +st said, t&is is 'efore t&e !&ole life expectancy.
Ms. Cahan: /"ay. (&at's fine. I'# fine !it& t&at co#in* ot no!.
Mr. Panish: /"ay. ,et's #a"e sre !e're all on t&e sa#e pa*e.
Mr. Boyle: We're sayin* 0<2@04 t&ro*& 0<?@0< s&old 'e ot.
Mr. Panish: /"ay. 8o!, is t&ere any ot&er ones as !e loo" t&ro*& it &ere$
Ms. Cahan: (&ere !eren't any ot&ers fro# or conters t&at I felt *et dealt !it& t&e
isse of 55
Mr. Panish: any #ore t&at yo t&o*&t fro# ors$ Well, t&e isse is life expectancy.
Ms. Cahan: (&e ones fro# yors, !e've dealt !it& all of t&ose. 8o! !e're tal"in* a'ot
or conters t&at !ere eit&er not o'+ected to or t&e o'+ection !as overrled, and t&at
!as t&e only one I &ad identified as discssin* anyt&in* related to life expectancy.
Mr. Panish: Well, !e #issed t&at one. I don't see any ot&ers.
Mr. Boyle: Ms. Ca&an, 07?@01 to 074@< is ot> correct$
Mr. Ptna#3 %es.
Ms. Cahan: %es.

Mr. Boyle: /"ay. (&an" yo.


Mr. Panish: .ll ri*&t. So yo 'etter *o tell &i#, t&en. I don't see anyt&in* else.
Ms. Cahan: So &e +st needs to s"ip t&at.
Mr. Panish: /"ay. .ll ri*&t.
Ms. Steins: /ne #ore video edit, and t&en !e're *ood to *o$
Mr. Panish: Well, !e'll see. I t&o*&t !e !ere *ood to *o as it !as.
Mr. Boyle: /"ay. I don't see anyt&in* else. (&an" yo.
(ac/ to open court)
(a #ideo clip o! Dr. $arly%s deposition is played)
Mr. Boyle: (&at is t&e end of t&e video, yor &onor.
Judge: /"ay. (&an" yo. .re yo *oin* to call a !itness live$
Mr. Boyle: %es, yor &onor.
Judge: Mr. -oyle$
Mr. Boyle: We are callin* Dr. Bordon Mat&eson. M5a5t5&5e5s5o5n.
Judge: (&an" yo. Dr. Bordon Mat&eson, called as a !itness 'y t&e Plaintiffs, !as
s!orn and testified as follo!s3
Mr. Panish: We're *oin* to call Dr. Bordon Mat&eson at t&is ti#e, yor &onor.
Judge: (&an" yo. %o #ay 'e*in.

Direct e&a"ination y Mr. Bloss:

A. Bood afternoon, sir.
.. Bood afternoon.
A. W&at do yo do for !or", Dr. Mat&eson$
.. I'# a p&ysician.

A. .nd !&ere do yo !or"$


.. Stanford University.
A. W&at's yor title at Stanford University$
.. I a# a professor in t&e Sc&ool of Medicine> I'# t&e director of sports #edicine> I'# t&e
&ead tea# p&ysician> I'# t&e professor in t&e &#an 'iolo*y depart#ent. I &ave a fe!.
A. Can yo s##ariCe for s, please, yor edcational 'ac"*rond, startin* !it& yor
colle*e nder*radate de*ree$
.. I !ent to University in Cal*ary, .l'erta, Canada, !&ere I did a #edical de*ree. .nd
t&en I s'se)ently did a p&.D. In exercise p&ysiolo*y at t&e University of -ritis&
Col#'ia in Fancover.
A. .nd yor P&.D. %o *ot at t&e University of 'ritis& col#'ia. .nd I ta"e it, 'y t&e !ay,
t&at yo're Canadian$
.. I'# a Canadian.
A. -t yo're livin* crrently in t&e United States$
.. %es. I've 'een &ere <D years.
A. .ll ri*&t. Did yo &ave any 55 !&en yo !ere *ettin* yor p&.D. .t t&e University of
'ritis& col#'ia, did yo &ave to do any specialiCation or t&esis$ .nyt&in* li"e t&at$
.. I did. We stdied t&e effects of lac" of oxy*en on t&e 'ody. (&at !as pro'a'ly t&e
#ain t&e#e.
A. Did yo do a t&esis$
.. I did a t&esis.
A. W&at !as t&at on$
.. Well, it !as a little nsal. We !ere tryin* to nderstand &o! certain people cold
live !it&ot oxy*en. So !e stdied a *rop called )ec&a 55 !&ic& are 'asically "no!n
as incas in per 55 at &i*& altitdes at 04 or 0?,DDD feet. .nd !e stdied t&e# in per
and 'ro*&t t&e# to sea level to see if t&ey !old c&an*e adaptation.
A. W&at did yo find ot$
.. (&at t&ey didn't. (&ey don't prodce any lactic acid, and play soccer +st as !ell at
sea level as at altitde.
A. .nd yo said t&at yor p&.D. Was in exercise p&ysiolo*y. Can yo s##ariCe for s
!&at t&at #eans$ W&at is Eexercise p&ysiolo*yE$

.. (&at's &o! t&e 'ody responds to exercise or t&e loads on t&e 'ody. W&at &appens,
for exa#ple, to t&e &eart and ln*s, #scle, t&e 'one, in response to p&ysical loads on
t&e 'ody. So, for exa#ple, !&en yo exercise, yo increase yor #scle #ass, yor
'one density, yor &eart fnction, yor ln* capacity. (&ose "inds of adaptations.
A. .nd, sir, after yo *radated fro# #edical sc&ool, did yo *et a #edical license,
certificate$
.. %es. I received an M.D., yes.
A. .nd !ere yo per#itted to practice #edicine so#e!&ere$
.. %es.
A. W&ere$
.. In canada I practiced initially after I *radated.
A. .nd can yo s##ariCe !&at "ind of !or" yo did as a p&ysician, doctor, in Canada$
.. Well, I !as fairly yon*, so I !ent to t&e arctic, and I !or"ed in !&at's no! "no!n as
an init settle#ent. .ctally, a series of settle#ents in t&e arctic ocean providin*
#edical care.
A. Beneral #edical care. .nyt&in* in particlar$
.. .nyt&in* fro# deliverin* 'a'ies to loo"in* after 'ac" pain, yes.
A. .nd do yo &ave a 55 yo've 'een in t&e United States for approxi#ately <D years,
yo said$
.. %es.
A. Do yo &ave any "ind of #edical certification or license fro# 55 in t&e United States$
.. Well, I received t&e certification in fa#ily #edicine in Canada, and t&at received
reciprocity !&en I #oved to t&e United States.
A. So yo &ave a California #edical license$
.. %es, I do.
A. /"ay. 8o!, Dr. Mat&eson, &o! lon* &ave yo 'een at Stanford$
.. ,ittle over 06 years.
A. Can yo s##ariCe !&at yo did in ter#s of yor acade#ic experience 'efore yo
ca#e to Stanford$
.. I &ad 'een a University professor, and #y !or" !old 'e split 'et!een teac&in*,
researc& and clinical care. Part of t&e clinical care !old 'e in clinics, and part of it

!old 'e loo"in* after sports tea#s.


A. .nd t&at !as tre in canada and as !ell in t&e nited states at Stanford$
.. %es, t&at's tre.
A. Can yo s##ariCe, Dr. Mat&eson, if yo've &ad occasion to !rite any articles in yor
professional capacity$
.. %es. I've !ritten articles, !&ic& is really part of !&at it #eans to 'e in t&e acade#ic
environ#ent.
A. .pproxi#ately &o! #any articles$
.. .lto*et&er, #ay'e 04D.
A. .nd do yo serve crrently on any "ind of 55 or in t&e past, since yo've 'een a
doctor, on any 'oards or co##issions or or*aniCations$
.. In canada I !as t&e president of t&e canadian acade#y of sports #edicine. In t&e
nited states I'# a fello! of t&e a#erican colle*e of sports #edicine.
A. Can yo explain +st !&at t&ose t!o t&in*s are$
.. (&ose are pro'a'ly t&e lar*est sports #edicine 'odies in t&eir respective contries.
A. W&at do t&ey do$
.. (&e a#erican colle*e of sports #edicine in t&e nited states is 'ot& a clinical and
researc& or*aniCation t&at develops position state#ents, collects researc&, provides
teac&in* and edcational opportnities for people in sports #edicine. It really is pro'a'ly
one t&e #ost co#pre&ensive sports #edicine 'odies.
A. .nd !e s&old pro'a'ly define !&at sports #edicine is, Dr. Mat&eson. W&at is sports
#edicine$
.. Well, sports #edicine is t!o t&in*s3 one, it's t&e care of at&letes involved in
co#petitive endeavors, 't it also is t&at area of #edicine t&at is associated !it&
p&ysical activity, ntrition and &ealt& and disease prevention.
A. 9o! did yo c&oose to *et into sports #edicine$
.. I t&in" it !as a realiCation as to &o! li#ited certain treat#ents in #edicine &ave
'eco#e for a !&ole n#'er of diseases. .nd !&ile !e can increase perfor#ance in t&e
at&letic poplation, !e &aven't really done t&at !it& t&e *eneral poplation, and to 'e
a'le to do t&at is a !ay of i#provin* &ealt& t&at is otside of t&e typical #edications and
sr*ery. (&at !as very appealin* to #e.
A. .nd crrently are yo involved in anyt&in* relatin* to t&e international oly#pic
co##ittee$

.. %es. I've developed a standardiCed exa#ination t&at's *iven 'efore at&letes are
involved in sports. We call t&at a preparticipation evalation, !&ic& is a co#pre&ensive
evalation of 'ody syste#s prior to sport participation. I crrently c&air a *rop for t&e
international oly#pic co##ittee tryin* to ta"e !&at !e "no! in sports #edicine for t&e
co#petitive at&lete and transfer it to t&e *eneral p'lic to redce c&ronic diseases, li"e
&i*& 'lood pressre, &eart disease, and so fort&.
A. .nd &ave yo &ad occasion to 'e an editor or assistant editor of any sc&olarly
p'lications in t&e #edical field$
.. I fonded a +ornal called t&e clinical +ornal of sport #edicine, and I also !as t&e
editor for one called t&e p&ysician and sports#edicine.
A. W&at does it #ean to EfondE a +ornal$ 9o! do yo fond a +ornal$
.. It #eans yo start it. %o *et all t&e pieces to*et&er, t&e p'lis&in* co#pany, t&e
+ornal articles, t&e editorial revie! 'oard, and create a +ornal, and t&en apply to &ave it
indexed 55 +ornals are ran"ed 'y t&e national instittes of &ealt&, and t&e ran"in* is
called an i#pact factor. So yo try &ard to 'e t&e very 'est +ornal so yo can #ove p
t&at ran"in*.
A. .nd are yo also involved in any "ind of !or" as a p&ysician or 55 in t&e non5profit
co##nity$
.. I &ave 'een. I've 'een on t&e 'oard of directors of t&e international +stice #ission.
A. W&at is t&at$
.. (&at's a non5profit or*aniCation in Was&in*ton, D.C. t&at deals !it& ndera*e sex
traffic"in* and 'onded slavery and land appropriation in Sot&east .sia, .frica and India.
A. .re yo crrently on any ot&er 'oards in t&e #edical field$
.. I a# on t&e 'oard of an or*aniCation ot of nas&ville called 'lood3 !ater #ission,
!&ic& deals !it& ..I.D.S. .nd clean !ater in s'5Sa&aran .frica.
A. W&at do yo do for t&at$
.. I'# a #e#'er of t&e 'oard of directors.
A. 8o!, Dr. Mat&eson, I !ant to as" yo a little 'it a'ot !&at yo do, actally, at
Stanford. W&at are yor pri#ary responsi'ilities at Stanford University$
.. I !as recrited to Stanford to start t&e sports #edicine pro*ra#, and t&at still re#ains
#y pri#ary responsi'ility, to #ana*e t&e sports #edicine pro*ra#, !&ic& is to care for
Stanford at&letes.
A. W&en yo say yo !ere recrited to t&e pro*ra#, !ere yo in Canada at t&at ti#e$
.. %es, I !as.

A. .nd in s##ary, &o! did yo 55 !&at cased yo to *o to Stanford$


.. I !asn't loo"in* for a +o', 't I *ave a lectre in Cape (o!n, Sot& .frica, and a
#e#'er of t&e selection co##ittee invited #e to apply, and a year later, I !as at
Stanford.
A. .nd !&en yo !ere 'ro*&t on at Stanford, !as t&ere so#et&in* in particlar yo
!ere 'ein* as"ed to do$
.. Well, Stanford didn't &ave a sports #edicine pro*ra#, so t&e care of t&e at&letes !as
really provided t&ro*& t&e at&letic depart#ent. .nd in settin* p a pro*ra#, !e !anted
to create a #edical environ#ent t&at provided care. So !e &ad to esta'lis& every
strctre t&at !as essential to providin* a &i*& )ality, co#pre&ensive #edical care
environ#ent.
A. 8o!, Stanford &as a co#petitive sports pro*ra#> is t&at correct$
.. %es. It's a very co#petitive pro*ra#, !&ic& #ay not 'e o'vios at first, 'ecase it's
also a very acade#ic niversity. -t it &as a pro*ra# t&at I 'elieve, if I )ote t&is
correctly, &as !on t&e director's cp as t&e 'est division 05a pro*ra# in t&e United
States 06 years in a ro!.
A. .nd t&at's across #en's and !o#en's at&letics, ta"in* into accont all t&e different
sports, all t&e different intercolle*iate sports$
.. %es. Correct.
A. .nd is t&ere 55 do so#eti#es t&e at&letes at Stanford participate in international
sports activities of one sort or anot&er$
.. %es. ;or exa#ple, t&e oly#pic *a#es. I t&in" on t&at front, oly#pic sports, li"e
s!i##in* and ro!in* and so fort&, in 'ei+in*, if I recall correctly, Stanford !on <4
#edals, !&ic& !old &ave tied t&e# in +apan as t&e 00t& contry in /ly#pic #edals.
.nd t&e ot&er one t&at I do "no! !ell, 'ecase I've *iven lectres in Canada, is t&at
Stanford at&letes &ave !on t!o and a &alf ti#es as #any *old #edals as t&e contry of
Canada. So it is a very co#petitive environ#ent.
A. .nd does t&at translate 55 as t&e director of sports #edicine, are t&ere expectations of
t&e perfor#ance of t&e at&letic tea#s t&at yo &ave to address as t&e director of sports
#edicine$
.. %es, I t&in" so. We deal, of corse, !it& t&e &ealt& of t&e at&lete and 'alance t&at !it&
t&e needs to perfor# at a &i*& level, &i*& eno*& to !in t&e director's cp or !in #edals.
So part of or pro*ra# t&at !e created !as to address t&at isse.
A. .ll ri*&t. We'll tal" a'ot t&at in +st a second. In yor ti#e at Stanford, Dr. Mat&eson,
&ave yo &ad t&e opportnity to !or" !it& people !&o &ave &ad very sccessfl at&letic
careers$
.. %es, I &ave.

A. .nd can yo *ive s an exa#ple or t!o$


.. I *ess #ost recently, andre! lc" *radated fro# or pro*ra# a year a*o and is
playin* in t&e national foot'all lea*e.
A. .ny oly#pic at&letes$
.. :enny (&o#pson !on 1 #edals. S&e !as a s!i##er at Stanford. (&ere is a !&ole
n#'er t&at *oes t&ro*& ti#es, 't I !asn't t&ere for all of t&ose.
A. 8o!, &ave yo served eit&er 55 drin* t&e ti#e yo !ere at Stanford or 'efore, &ave
yo ever served as
.. (ea# p&ysician for a co#petitive sports tea#$
.. %es, I &ave.
A. Can yo +st tell s a'ot t&at$
.. I've !or"ed in t&e national &oc"ey lea*e as t&e tea# doctor for t&e Fancover
canc"s.
A. 9o! lon* did yo do t&at$
.. ;or t&ree years.
A. /"ay.
.. I served as t&e tea# p&ysician for t&e Canadian /ly#pic &oc"ey ti#e for ei*&t years.
I've *one to t&e oly#pic *a#es as a #edical officer> I loo"ed after niversity tea#s.
(&ose !ere 'efore I ca#e to Stanford.
A. 8o!, in co#parin* yor !or" as a tea# p&ysician, tea# doctor, and clinical 55 a
clinical p&ysician in a #edical practice, &o! does 55 &o! does yor experience in carin*
for co#petitive at&letes differ fro# clinical practice ot&er!ise$
.. I t&in" t&e 'i* difference is, in clinical practice, it's yo and t&e patient> !&ereas in 55 in
a tea# sitation, it's yo and t&e patient and t&e coac&, t&e ad#inistrator, t&e a*ent, t&e
*rop of people involved in t&at. So instead of it 'ein* a t!o5!ay party, it tends to 'e a
t&ree5!ay party.
A. .nd it 'ein* a t&ree5!ay party, if !e 55 a t&ree5!ay relations&ip, does t&at present any
particlar c&allen*es to t&e parties$
.. %es, it does, 'ecase t&e #inte yo &ave a t&ree5!ay party, yo #ay &ave #ore
t&an one interest t&at's in conflict !it& t&e ot&er.
A. .nd t&e ti#e since yo've 'een at Stanford over t&e last <D years, to !&at de*ree &as
yor !or" involved tryin* to #ana*e t&at t&ree5!ay relations&ip$
.. I've spent a lot of ti#e #ana*in* t&at t&ree5!ay relations&ip. (&at !as so#et&in* !e

needed to deal !it& ri*&t at t&e very 'e*innin* !&en I ca#e to Stanford to set p t&e
pro*ra#. .nd !e needed to do t&at 'ecase !e needed to esta'lis& a policy and a
strctre t&at !e !old pt in place t&at !old redce t&e conflict of interest. So I t&in"
it's so#et&in* I've spent a si*nificant a#ont of ti#e over t&e last 06 or <D years doin*.
A. (&e 55 !e s&old pro'a'ly at t&is point #ay'e define !&at a conflict of interest is. Can
yo tell s !it&in t&e #edical co##nity in t&e context of a t&ree5!ay relations&ip, !&at
a conflict of interest #ay 'e$
.. Well, a conflict of interest is really a set of circ#stances t&at creates a ris", t&at
professional decisions #ade on 'e&alf of a pri#ary interest 55 for exa#ple, an at&lete's
&ealt& 55 #ay 'e ndly inflenced 'y a secondary interest. ;or exa#ple, financial *ain.
A. In t&e sports context, specifically, are t&ere exa#ples !&ere t&ere are ot&er "inds of
secondary interests$
.. In addition to financial *ain$
A. %es.
.. %es. (&ere are t&in*s li"e reptation or stats or reco*nition !it&in t&e co##nity.
(&ose are also sorces of secondary *ain.
A. Can yo +st *ive s an exa#ple of t&e "ind of analysis yo &ave to do in t&e sports
#edicine context !&ere t&ere's a potential &ealt& isse !it& an at&lete, !&at t&e process
is to try to 'alance t&ose interests$
.. Well, !e *enerally try to, first, identify t&e presence of a conflict5of5interest ris". .nd
t&en, per&aps, if t&at's present, #ove to loo"in* at t&e potential severity of t&at conflict of
interest.
A. Can yo +st *ive s, #ay'e in a sports context, is t&ere 55 can yo *ive s an
exa#ple of a particlar sitation !&ere a doctor #i*&t &ave t&at decision, t&e isse
a'ot t&e at&lete's &ealt& verss so#e ot&er interests$
.. ;or exa#ple, in yon* !o#en, disordered eatin* &as 'eco#e a co##on pro'le#,
and t&at's a condition t&at's associated !it& a lot of &ealt& pro'le#s *oin* for!ard into
t&e ftre. -t t&ere's no real &ard criteria to decide !&et&er so#e'ody is exclded or
allo!ed to participate in a sport. (&at re)ires so#e'ody intervenin* at a ti#e !&en
t&ere cold 'e ot&er conflicts. ;or exa#ple, if t&at stdent &as a sc&olars&ip to pay for
University, t&ere #ay not 'e an alternate !ay of payin* for University. (&e parents #ay
!ant t&e stdent to contine in University, 't it #ay not 'e t&e 'est t&in* for &er &ealt&.
So &avin* to intervene in t&at or #ove into t&at area and #a"e a decision is re)ired.
A. .nd I t&in" so#et&in* t&at &as certainly &ad so#e press lately is t&e isse of
concssions in foot'all.
.. =i*&t.
A. Is t&at a sitation, also, t&at presents t&ose "inds of isses$

.. %es, it is. .nd particlarly drin* a *a#e !&en a decision needs to 'e #ade )ic"ly.
.nd concssions, as yo "no!, do not al!ays &ave really concrete sy#pto#s.
So#eti#es t&ey can 'e so#e!&at va*e, t&in*s li"e diCCiness, li*&t5&eadedness,
!ooCiness. So t&at's a very i#portant area !e've !or"ed in over t&e years.
A. Does researc& !it&in yor field s&o! t&at !&at yo've identified as secondary
interests, li"e financial *ain, does t&at &ave an i#pact on #edical decision5#a"in*$
.. %es, it does. It's not actally researc& in t&e field of sports #edicine, 't t&ere is
researc& in t&e #edical literatre t&at indicates t&at !&en so#eone stands to *ain, it
affects t&eir decision5#a"in*. It 'iases t&e# in a !ay !&ere t&ey lose t&eir o'+ectivity,
and t&ey #a"e decisions t&ey #ay not nor#ally #a"e.
A. -t aren't potential conflicts present in any patient@p&ysician relations&ip$
.. %es, t&ey can 'e, correct.
A. W&en do t&ey 'eco#e o'+ectiona'le$
.. (&ey 'eco#e o'+ectiona'le !&en t&e secondary interest, !&atever t&at is 55
reptation or #oney 55 'eco#es #ore i#portant or &as an nde interest on t&e pri#ary
interest, !&ic&, in or case, is sports #edicine &ealt&.
A. 8o!, !&en yo !ere 'ro*&t to Stanford, Dr. Mat&eson, did yo pt into place a
strctre to try to #ana*e t&ese conflicts of interest$
.. %es. We *radally 'ilt a strctre over a t!o5 or t&ree5year period.
A. .nd did yor !or" !it& varios people in t&e Stanford co##nity &elp !it& pttin*
t&at strctre into place$
.. %es. -ecase !e "ne! t&e University &ad to 'e stron*ly spported for t&at to !or".
A. .nd !&o did yo specifically report to$ W&o did yo !or" !it& directly in settin* p
t&e pro*ra# to #ana*e conflicts of interest$
.. I !or"ed !it& t&e at&letic director, !&o !as ted leland at t&e ti#e, and t&e president of
t&e Stanford #edical center, !&o !as peter van etten, and t&e provost, !&o !as second
in c&ar*e at Stanford. (&at !as condoleeCCa rice at t&e ti#e.
A. S&e !ent on to &ave anot&er +o' after s&e left t&e Stanford conflict of interest
pro*ra#$
.. Correct.
A. S&e !as t&e Secretary of State of t&e United States$
.. %es.
A. .nd did yo &ave occasion to !or" !it& any #e#'ers of t&e foot'all pro*ra# in yor
early ti#e$

.. W&en I started, 'ill !als& !as t&e foot'all coac&.


A. Did yo !or" !it& Mr. Wals&$
.. %es, I did. I !as t&e &ead tea# p&ysician.
A. Was CondoleeCCa =ice a sports 55 !as s&e interested in t&is isse, t&e conflict of
interest !it&in t&e sports settin*$
.. S&e loved foot'all. I t&in" &er )ote !as, if s&e !as a #an, s&e !old &ave played
foot'all.
A. (&e 55 Dr. Mat&eson, in +anary of <D02, !ere yo approac&ed 'y or office to revie!
so#e #aterials relatin* to t&e relations&ip 'et!een ae* live, Mic&ael :ac"son and Dr.
Conrad Mrray$
.. %es, I !as.
A. .nd did yo t&en #eet !it& a la!yer fro# or office and provided !it& a certain set of
#aterials$
.. %es. I #et !it& Eleanor Sterlin*.
A. .nd +st in s##ary, !&at "ind of #aterials did yo eventally revie!$
.. (&ey !ere c&iefly depositions t&at contained ex&i'its !it& e#ails, for exa#ple. (&at
!as t&e #ost co##on doc#ent I received.
A. .nd did yo &ave 55 !&en yo started to revie! t&e 55 !it&dra!n. %o eventally
a*reed to 'e paid for yor ti#e relatin* to t&e revie! of t&e #aterials> is t&at correct$
.. %es. %es, I did.
A. .nd do yo re#e#'er !&at t&e rate !as t&at yo a*reed to 'e paid$
.. (&e rate !as G4DD an &or.
A. 8o!, is t&at yor standard rate for testifyin* as an expert !itness$
.. I &ave never testified as an expert !itness 'efore.
A. So &o! did yo arrive at t&at n#'er$
.. I as"ed so#e collea*es !&o &ad and *ot a *eneral idea of !&at t&e #ar"et rate
!as.
A. .nd did yo &ave an nderstandin* as to !&at yo !ere 'ein* as"ed to do in
revie!in* t&e #aterials !&en yo !ere first provided t&e#$
.. My nderstandin* !as to loo" at t&e# and *et an 55 try to *et an idea of !&at isses

!ere at play in t&is case.


A. 8o!, do yo, Dr. Mat&eson, &ave any direct experience !it&in t&e #sic indstry$
.. 8o.
A. 9ave yo ever 'een &ired as a p&ysician for a concert tor$
.. 8o.
A. 9ave yo ever 'een en*a*ed as a contractor for a concert tor$
.. 8o.
A. 9ave yo ever !or"ed as an 55 eit&er as or for a pro#oter in t&e #sic indstry$
.. 8o.
A. 9ave yo ever !or"ed in any capacity !it&in t&e #sic indstry$
.. 8o.
A. Upon yor revie! of t&e #aterials t&at yo loo"ed at, t&e depositions and ex&i'its and
so fort&, did yo see parallels !it&in t&e
sports indstry, t&e sports #edicine context, and t&e entertain#ent context$
.. %es, I did.
A. Can yo +st s##ariCe t&ose$
.. In s##ary, one of t&e #ost o'vios is !&at !e tal"ed a'ot 'efore, t&e t&ree5!ay
relations&ip !&ere it's not +st doctor@patient. It's doctor, patient and a t&ird *rop, !&ic&,
in t&is instance, is ae*, si#ilar to !&at role a tea# !old play in sports #edicine. .nd
t&ere's an artist involved &ere si#ilar to an at&lete, and t&ere's a p&ysician involved, so I
did see parallels.
A. .nd did yo see parallels !it& respect to t&e actal Mr. :ac"son's expected
perfor#ance in t&is context$
.. %es. I t&in" Mr. :ac"son's perfor#ance !as &i*&ly p&ysical, si#ilar in a !ay to !&at
an at&lete 55 !&at an at&lete !old do in a perfor#ance or in a *a#e.
A. .nd !&at did yo 'ase t&at on$
.. Well, I "no! sports pretty !ell. I "no! a fair 'it a'ot p&ysical activity, and t&e loads
on t&e 'ody. .nd I've seen videos of Mr. :ac"son.
A. 8o!, Dr. Mat&eson, !&en yo tal" a'ot conflicts of interest, can yo #easre
conflicts of interest n#erically$
.. 8o, yo can't.

A. In ot&er !ords, yo can !ei*& so#e'ody and find ot &o! #c& t&ey !ei*&, or find
ot &o! fast t&ey can rn t&e 0DD5yard das&, 't is t&ere any !ay, a ta'le !e can loo" at
to say, Et&is is a 6D,E Et&is is an 1D,E Et&is is a 7D on t&e conflict5of5interest scaleE$
.. 8ot t&at 55 not in a !ay t&at )antifies it t&at ti*&tly, no. (&ere are *eneral )estions or
s**estions, 't not to t&at level.
A. .re yo fa#iliar !it& researc& t&at does tal" a'ot &o! to analyCe t&e severity of
conflicts of interest$
.. %es, I a#.
A. Can yo +st s##ariCe t&at for s$
.. Well, t&at researc& loo"s at t!o factors3 one is, is t&ere an nde inflence$ In ot&er
!ords, is t&ere an nde inflence !&ere t&e secondary interest inflences t&e pri#ary
interest$ .nd t&e ot&er part of t&at is &o! serios yo are a'ot t&e conse)ences, so
t&at if t&is conflict of interest prodces a pro'le#, !&at's t&e #a*nitde of t&at pro'le#$
.nd t&ose t&in*s are3 !&at's t&e vale of t&e secondary interest$ W&at's t&e vale of t&e
pri#ary interest$ W&at's t&e scope of t&e relations&ip$ So &o! involved are people in
t&is relations&ip$ W&at's t&e extent of t&e service t&at's 'ein* provided$ W&at's t&e level
of discretion$ W&at's t&e a#ont of acconta'ility$ (&ose are t&e "inds of isses t&at
are raised.
A. Can yo *ive s, #ay'e, fro# a sports5#edicine context, a cople of exa#ples fro#
t&e least severe to t&e #ost severe$
.. Well, I t&in" t&e least severe !old 'e so#e'ody !it& a very, very #inor in+ry t&at is
not *oin* to prodce s&ort5ter# or lon*5ter# &ealt& pro'le#s. ,et's say tendinitis in t&e
foot, and retrnin* t&e# to t&e sport, &as very little ris". (o a &i*&er ris" !old 'e a
distance rnner !it& t&i*& pain t&at so#e&o! *ets treated as a )adricep #scle
pro'le#, 't it trns ot to 'e a fractred fe#r and reslts in a co#plete fractre. (&at
!old 'e a #ean. (&e #ost serios cases are t&e ones associated !it& sdden cardiac
deat& related to &ealt& pro'le#s and t&ose related to nerolo*ical pro'le#s, sc& as a
concssion.
A. W&ere !old t&e conflict of interest co#e into t&at e)ation$
.. . conflict of interest !old co#e in !&ere t&e pressre to participate in t&e sportin*
event so#e&o! ot!ei*&s t&e #edical decision to protect t&e at&lete's &ealt&.
A. .nd yo #entioned t&e one potential secondary interest t&at can affect #edical
decision5#a"in*, financial.
.. %es.
A. .nd are yo fa#iliar !it& researc& t&at descri'es t&e 55 &o! po!erfl t&at particlar
secondary interest can 'e$
.. %es, I a#. (&e literatre says t&at financial interests are 55 secondary interests are t&e

#ost po!erfl erodin* force in a conflict5of5interest sitation.


A. Dr. Mat&eson, 'ased on yor revie! of t&e #aterials, t&e depositions, t&e ex&i'its,
t&e e#ails, and ot&er #aterials relatin* to t&e relations&ip 'et!een ae* live, Dr. Conrad
Mrray and Mic&ael :ac"son, and ass#in* t&at ae* live &ired Dr. Mrray, do yo &ave
an opinion as to !&et&er ae* live created a conflict of interest$
.. %es, I do. I 'elieve t&ey did create a conflict of interest.
A. .nd +st in s##ary, in !&at !ay$
.. Well, I 'elieve t&at Dr. Mrray &i#self !as conflicted, and t&e pro#ise of pay#ent t&at
&e !as to receive, as !ell as &is o!n inde'tedness. .nd t&en t&e contract !as
strctred t&at #ade &i# ans!era'le to ae* 't also !as 55 cold 'e canceled if t&e tor
itself !as postponed or canceled, or &is contract cold 'e ter#inated. .nd t&en I t&in"
t&at played ot. W&en Mr. :ac"son's &ealt& 'e*an to deteriorate, I t&in" t&at conflict of
interest played ot.
A. .nd do yo &ave an opinion, 'ased on yor trainin* and experience, !&et&er t&e
conflict yo've descri'ed, in s##ary, !as li"ely to lead to poor #edical decisions 'y t&e
doctor$
.. I t&in" in t&is case t&e conflict !as li"ely to lead to poor #edical decisions, yes.
A. .ll ri*&t. ,et's tal" first, Dr. Mat&eson, a'ot t&e contract as yo've descri'ed it. Is t&at
one of t&e pieces of infor#ation t&at yo 'ase yor opinion 55 !it&dra!n. Did yo rely on
t&e !ritten contract, in part, for yor opinions re*ardin* t&e existence and t&e severity of
t&e conflict of interest$
.. %es, I did.
A. .ll ri*&t. .nd t&at is ex&i'it 2?2. I 'elieve yo &ave
.. Copy p in front of yo.
.. I do, yes. (&an"s.
Mr. Bloss: Can you just 00 i! .e can ring it up on the screen.
Judge: 1s this a good ti"e to rea/) since 00
Mr. Bloss: 2hat%s !ine) your honor.
Judge: -lthough) .hen did .e start3
Mr. Panish: +:**.
Ms. Steins: 2en to +:**.
Judge: 1 thin/ .e can go a little longer. 4ou thin/ you can go a little longer3 5/ay.
Go at least '6 "ore "inutes. Sorry.

Mr. Bloss: 2hat%s !ine.


Ms. Steins: -re .e going to 7:** or 7:(* today3
Judge: 7:**.
Ms. Steins: 1n that case) can 1 as/ !or a rea/ at (:'63
Judge: 5/ay. 8egotiated rea/.
Mr. Panish: 9hate#er you .ant. (:'6.
A. .ll ri*&t. Dr. Mat&eson, t&e doc#ents in front of yo, ex&i'it 2?2, do yo "no! !&at
t&is is (indicatin*)$
.. %es, I do.
A. .nd did yo rely on t&is doc#ent, in part, for yor opinions re*ardin* t&e conflict of
interest and its severity$
.. %es, I did.
A. 8o!, &ave yo ever seen a copy of ex&i'it 2?2 t&at !as si*ned 'y .EB ,ive, Dr.
Mrray and Mic&ael :ac"son$
.. 8o, I &aven't.
A. Does it #a"e any difference to yo !&et&er, for t&e prposes of yor opinion, !&et&er
.EB ,ive si*ned t&is$
.. 8o, it doesn't.
A. W&y$
.. -ecase in effect t&e contract !as ne*otiated, and a discssion too" place, and in
fact I t&in" Dr. Mrray exc&an*ed &is 'an" infor#ation. I t&in" t&ere !ere p&one calls. I
t&in" &e !as operatin* nder t&e ass#ption t&at t&e contract !as in force. I 'elieve one
e#ail said t&at &e !as flly en*a*ed in t&e care of Mr. :ac"son. So, no, I didn't 55
!&et&er it !as si*ned or not, to #e it didn't c&an*e #y feelin* as to !&et&er t&is !as a
conflict of interest.
Ms. Steins: 4our honor) 1%" going to oject and "o#e to stri/e so"e o! this
testi"ony as co#ered y judge%s "otions in li"ine on his opinions. 1 thin/ i! he
.ants to assu"e that there .as a contract and that Dr. Murray .as hired) that%s
one thing. But it see"s li/e he%s gi#ing an opinion on that suject.
Judge: 9ell) o/ay.
Mr. Bloss: 1 thin/ in "y hypothetical originally) your honor) did include) ,assu"e

the, 00 this is a piece o! e#idence) though) and 1%" just as/ing hi" i! he relied on
this in part and .hy.
Ms. Steins: 4our honor) 1%" not !aulting Mr. Bloss%s :uestion) ut as your honor
has already ruled) a physician should not e interpreting the contract. 2hat%s !or
the jury to do) ased on your honor%s instructions.
Judge: 1 thought he said he .as under the assu"ption that Conrad Murray 00
Mr. Panish: ;ight.
Judge: 00 .as !ully engaged. So 1 thin/ it%s under an assu"ption.
Mr. Panish: ;ight.
Ms. Steins: -s long as .e%re clear it%s an assu"ption) 1%" good. Didn%t sound
li/e that to "e) so 00
Judge: -re you under that i"pression< that it%s an assu"ption3
2he .itness: 4es) 1 a".
Mr. Bloss: 2han/ you) your honor.
A. 8o!, Dr. Mat&eson, I'd li"e yo to #ay'e explain !&at it is a'ot t&is doc#ent,
ex&i'it 2?2 t&at yo 'elieve in part created a conflict environ#ent.
.. /"ay. Well, I t&in" t&ere are t&ree #ain parts to t&is contract. %o'll notice t&e ter#, it
'e*an May 0st. -t t&e first ter#, !&ic& is .2, is t&at .EB !as *oin* to pay Dr. Mrray
G04D,DDD a #ont&. (&e second is 55
A. ,et's +st pase on t&at for a #o#ent, and !e'll *et to t&e second one. W&at is it
a'ot t&is provision t&at yo 'elieve &elps create a conflict of interest environ#ent$
.. Well, it's a lot of #oney to 'e paid to a p&ysician, particlarly a p&ysician !&o is
s'stantially inde'ted. My nderstandin* is t&at Dr. Mrray &ad a'ot G?DD,DDD in
+d*#ents a*ainst &i#, and ro*&ly GHDD,DDD in nsecred real estate de't. I "no! &e
&ad c&ildren, so I ass#e &e &ad ot&er expenses. So t&ere's a co#'ination of 'ein*
paid a lar*e s# of #oney and, at t&e sa#e ti#e, really needin* t&at #oney. A. .nd did
yo revie!, as part of yor preparation to testify &ere today, t&e testi#ony of detective
#artineC as *iven in t&is cortroo# 'ac" so#e n#'er of !ee"s a*o$
.. %es, I did.
A. .nd !&at !as it a'ot 55 did yo rely, in part, on &is testi#ony re*ardin* t&e finances
for yor opinion$
.. %es. 9e did a fairly ex&astive revie! of t&e finances of Dr. Mrray, and t&at's !&ere I
actally dre! #y n#'ers fro#.
A. .ll ri*&t. .nd in ter#s of t&e n#'ers, !&at is it a'ot t&ose n#'ers specifically t&at
yo 'elieve contri'ted to t&e conflict5of5interest environ#ent$

.. Well, I t&in" Dr. Mrray needed to 'e paid a si*nificant a#ont of #oney.
A. W&y$
.. -ecase &e o!ed a lot of #oney. .nd I t&in" t&at's !&at 55 t&at's t&e conflict for Dr.
Mrray.
A. .ll ri*&t. 8o!, if !e pt it in t&e ter#s of !&at yo tal"ed a'ot earlier, t&e conflict
'et!een t&e pri#ary interests and t&e secondary interests, can yo +st explain !&at
yo #ean sin* t&at particlar )estion of Dr. Mrray's financial condition$
.. %es. If so#eone is &ired to provide #edical care for a patient or an artist or an at&lete,
yo !ant t&e# to 'e a'le to #a"e independent #edical +d*#ents in t&e 'est interests
of so#e'ody's &ealt&. If t&ey're conflicted, or if t&eir pay#ent is tied to t&e "ind of !or"
t&ey do for a secondary interest, t&at conflict #ay play ot in t&e )ality or t&e
independence of t&e decisions t&ey #a"e.
A. .nd &o! does t&at apply, *iven t&is particlar contract ter#, and t&en yo also
&i*&li*&ted t&e ter#ination provision$ 9o! do t&ose to*et&er i#pact$
.. My nderstandin* is Dr. Mrray left &is practice to ta"e t&is +o', 't t&e contract t&at
&e !as ne*otiatin* !as s'+ect to i##ediate ter#ination if t&e s&o! !as postponed or
canceled for any reason. So fro# #y experience, loo"in* at conflicts of interest in
#ltiple cases over t&e years, I )estion !&y so#e'ody !old leave t&eir practice for a
contract !&ere t&ey cold 'e ter#inated i##ediately. So to #e, t&at added to t&e
si*nificance of t&e conflict of ris" in addition to t&e pay#ent and t&e need for t&e #oney.
A. .nd &o! #i*&t t&at conflict lead to 'ad #edical +d*#ents$
.. Well, it can prodce a 'ias in t&e t&in"in* !&ere t&e doctor !ants to preserve t&at
inco#e at all costs and "eep t&e person, t&e *rop t&at's payin* t&at inco#e, &appy as
opposed to payin* fll attention to t&e #edical needs of Mr. :ac"son. (&at's &o! t&at
cold play ot.
A. .ll ri*&t. I t&in" yo #entioned anot&er provision !it&in t&e a*ree#ent, ex&i'it 2?2$
.. =i*&t. It !as ?.0, !&ic& really indicates to #e t&at t&e doctor is ans!era'le to t&e
prodcer, ae*
A. .nd t&e lan*a*e is !&at's on t&e screen t&ere$
.. EPerform the services reasonably requested by the producer.E
A. W&at is it a'ot t&at lan*a*e t&at yo 'elieve contri'tes to a conflict5of5interest
environ#ent$
.. Well, t&at ties Dr. Mrray to t&e prodcer !&en &e's &ired to loo" after Mr. :ac"son's
&ealt&. So t&at conflicts t&e doctor in ter#s of !&ic& of t&e t!o interests is pri#ary, and
!&ic& of t&e t!o interests &e s&old attend to.
A. Did yo revie! 55 yo revie!ed several t&osand pa*es of doc#ents in t&is case> is

t&at fair$
.. %es, I &ave.
A. .re t&ere ot&er doc#ents in particlar t&at yo 'elieve are i#portant to yor
conclsion as to t&e existence and severity of a conflict of interest$
.. Well, I t&in" t&e #ost i#portant ones to #e !ere a series of e#ails t&at too" place
!it& Mr. /rte*a, Mr. P&illips, Mr. Bon*a!are.
A. /"ay. Is t&ere one in particlar t&at yo !old li"e to start !it&$
.. I &ave t&e one !&ere Ienny /rte*a sends a #essa*e to Pal Bon*a!are :ne 0?t&.
.ctally, I t&in" if !e start at t&e 'e*innin* of t&at, t&at's :ne 0?t&.
Mr. Bloss: 5/ay. =or the record) your honor) that%s e&hiit nos. >>60?* and ?'.
2he .itness: 2hat%s correct.
A. So if !e start at t&e first co##nication in t&at e#ail c&ain, !&at is it a'ot t&at
co##nication fro# /rte*a to Bon*a!are t&at yo 'elieve is #aterial to yor
conclsions$
.. (&ere are t!o t&in*s t&at are 'ro*&t p in t&at e#ail3 one is t&e &ealt& concerns
a'ot Mr. :ac"son. So let #e read t&ose to yo. EWho is responsible for MJ getting
proper nourishment, vitamins, therapy every day? Personally, I feel he should
have a top nutritionist and therapist woring with him.E So I t&in" !&at Mr. /rte*a is
pointin* ot is t&at Mr. :ac"son &as so#e &ealt& concerns t&at need to 'e attended to.
.nd t&e second t&in* in &ere is #ore directly related to conflict of interest, and t&e level
of independence t&at t&e p&ysician &as. It's a'ot t&ree lines do!n. It says3 E!ere yo
a!are t&at M:'s doctor didn't per#it &i# to attend re&earsals yesterday$E in ot&er !ords,
t&at see#s to 'e a srprise to Mr. /rte*a. E!re "andy and #ran aware of this?
Please have them stay on top of the situation.E .nd do!n at t&e 'otto#, it says3
EPlease don$t underestimate the need to stay on top of this.E So I t&in" !&at t&at's
sayin* is t&at t&ere 55 it )estions !&et&er t&e p&ysician is #a"in* independent
decisions.
A. Well, t&e context of t&is appears to 'e t&at t&e doctor 55 it says, EWere you aware
that MJ$s doctor didn$t permit him to attend rehearsals yesterdayE> ri*&t$
.. =i*&t.
A. .nd is t&at 55 in yor experience, is t&at a #edical isse$ In ot&er !ords 55
.. (&at's a #edical decision. So for a tea#, if !e say t&at t&is player s&oldn't play
to#orro!, t&at is a #edical decision 'ased on !&at !e t&in" is 'est for t&eir &ealt&.
A. /"ay. .nd is t&ere anyt&in* a'ot t&e response to t&is e#ail t&at yo relied on, in
part, for yor conclsions t&at t&ere !as a conflict of interest &ere$
.. Well, t&e response is fro# Mr. Bon*a!are, and it says3 E#ran and I have
discussed it already. We requested a face%to%face meeting with the doctor,

hopefully Monday. We want to remind him that it is !&' not MJ who is paying his
salary. We want him to understand what is e(pected of him.E .nd to #e, t&at 55
A. ;ro# t&e point of vie! of conflict of interest, &o! do yo interpret t&at$
.. Well, t&at very directly relates to t&e intent to control t&e doctor's decision5#a"in* or
professional +d*#ent. So for #e, !&at t&at !old #ean in t&e sports #edicine !orld
!old 'e so#et&in* li"e, !e're in t&e fort& )arter of an i#portant foot'all *a#e, and
t&e )arter'ac", t&e 'est player on t&e tea#, *ets a concssion, and t&e doctor plls
&i# ot of t&e *a#e. .nd t&e *a#e is an i#portant *a#e. May'e it *oes into t&e post
season, and very i#portant for o'tainin* ne! recrits next year, and endorse#ents and
sponsors&ip possi'ilities. .nd so#eone on t&e tea# says, E%o need to *o over to t&at
doctor and re#ind &i# &e !or"s for s, not t&e )arter'ac".E t&at sort of says !&at t&at
#eans to #e.
A. EUsE #eanin* t&e tea#$
.. %es.
Mr. Bloss: Did your honor .ant to rea/ at (:'63
Judge: 4es) 1 do. 5/ay. Can .e do '* "inutes this ti"e3 5/ay. 2han/ you. '*
"inutes.
(Brea/)

A. Dr. Mat&eson, !e !ere loo"in* at ex&i'it HH451D and I t&in" yo !ere sayin* t&at yo
see certain parallels 55 !it&dra!n. Do yo see certain parallels 'et!een Mr.
Bon*a!are's co##nication t&ere at t&e 'otto# of t&e pa*e and circ#stances yo
&ave to deal !it& in sports #edicine$
.. %es, I do.
A. .nd !&at are t&ey$
.. Well, !&at t&e e#ail spea"s to, I 'elieve, is t&e lac" of independence t&e p&ysician
&as, or t&e tea# p&ysician &as, or t&e doctor &as, !&en anot&er party is involved. So t&e
exa#ple I !old se, !&ic& !e &ave seen actally fairly often is fro# sports #edicine.
(&at's !&ere a decision needs to 'e #ade to retrn so#eone to a sport drin* t&e
*a#e. ;or exa#ple, t&ose decisions are difficlt in t&e fort& )arter in a very i#portant
foot'all *a#e !&ere !innin* t&e *a#e is critical, and !&ere re#ovin* t&e player 55 for
exa#ple, t&e )arter'ac" 55 cold lead to a loss for t&e tea#. .nd so t&e parallel I se to
t&is, is in t&at sitation, t&at is li"e t&e tea# o!ner or t&e coac& co#in* to t&e p&ysician
and sayin*, EWe !ant to re#ind yo t&at yo !or" for s, t&e tea#, not for t&e
)arter'ac" yo plled ot of t&e *a#e 'ecase of a concssion.E So to #e, it's a
parallel. It's actally a very direct parallel.
A. 8o!, is t&at a different type of conflict of interest fro# t&e financial conflict of interest
yo tal"ed a'ot earlier !it& Dr. Mrray in t&e contract, or is it part of t&e sa#e s'set$

.. It is part of t&e sa#e s'set. Conflict of interest is really conflict of interest. (&ere are
different cases for it, 't t&e reslts can 'e 'ad #edical decisions.
A. 8o!, t&e 55 and yo're a!are t&at Mr. /rte*a responded to Mr. Bon*a!are in ex&i'it
HH451D p at t&e top of t&e pa*e$
.. %es.
A. .nd is t&ere anyt&in* in t&at particlar co##nication t&at yo considered to 'e
#aterial for t&e prposes of yor opinions$
.. %es. (&ere is contined co##ent on t&e &ealt& stats of Mr. :ac"son. I'll +st read
t&at. E)e* 55 Mr. :ac"son 55 Erequires more attention than management. )e needs
nourishment and guidance and physical therapy. )e is not in great physical
shape. )e is being slow in grabbing hold of the wor.E So to #e t&at's #ore
infor#ation co#in* for!ard in t&e environ#ent as to Mr. :ac"son's &ealt&.
A. .nd !&en yo say t&is Eenviron#ent,E !&at do yo #ean$
.. I #ean t&at it is a conflict5of5interest environ#ent to 'e*in !it&, so as t&is infor#ation
co#es for!ard, t&e !ay t&at plays ot depends on !&at t&e environ#ent is li"e.
A. Is t&ere anyt&in* else a'ot t&is particlar co##nication t&at yo considered
i#portant$
.. 8o.
A. 8o!, if I can *o 'ac" to t&e first e#ail, I !ant to #a"e sre t&at I nderstood yo
correctly. (&e 55 on ex&i'it HH4510, t&e first co##nication fro# /rte*a to Bon*a!are,
did yo 55 !&at context did yo nderstand !it& respect to Mr. :ac"son attendin*
re&earsals did Mr. /rte*a send t&is e#ail$
.. (&e context !as t&at Mr. :ac"son's p&ysician, Dr. Mrray, &eld &i# ot of a re&earsal.
A. .ll ri*&t. .nd I'# not sre I &eard correctly, and I &aven't 'een a'le to loo" at t&e
transcript. Did yo say t&at t&at s&o!ed dependence or independence$
.. Well 55
A. In ot&er !ords, I s&old say t&e decision 'y t&e doctor, did t&at s&o! &e !as actin*
independently or dependently$
.. Well, pres#a'ly, t&e doctor !as #a"in* a decision on !&at !as 'est for Mr.
:ac"son's &ealt&. -t t&e fact t&at it's raised as an isse, E!re you aware that he didn$t
permit him to attend rehearsal" 'rin*s p t&e isse of t&e i#pin*e#ent on t&e
p&ysician's independence or independent decision5#a"in*.
A. .ll ri*&t. So t&e decision 'y t&e p&ysician to &old &i# ot of practice, t&at, in and of
itself, !as 55
.. Pro'a'ly a *ood decision, possi'ly a *ood decision, 't it !as an independent

decision.
A. .nd t&en t&e reaction to t&at 'y Mr. Bon*a!are, !&y is t&at i#portant to yo$
.. -ecase it encroac&es on t&e p&ysician's independent decision5#a"in* a'ility or
professional #edical +d*#ent. .nd so it's an intent to control t&e 55 to redce t&e
a#ont of independence in t&e p&ysician's decision5#a"in* and increases t&e a#ont
of control.
Ms. Steins: 1%" going to oject and "o#e to stri/e to the e&tent he says intent to
control. 2his .itness isn%t :uali!ied to gi#e the .riter o! the e"ail%s intent.
Judge: 5#erruled.
A. Dr. Mat&eson, I !ant to also +st 'riefly *o 'ac" to t&e first e#ail 55 I'# sorry,
c&ronolo*ically, t&e last e#ail, Mr. /rte*a's response to Mr. Bon*a!are. .t a'ot t&e
#iddle of t&at, t&ere is so#e lan*a*e a'ot not lettin* &i# slip 55 :ac"son slip. Do yo
see t&at$
.. %es.
A. .nd t&en continin* on, t&e next cople of sentences3 EI$m doing all I can every day
to build up his confidence and to create a schedule that will help to ready him and
to arrive us at our goals.E W&at is t&at 55 is t&ere anyt&in* a'ot t&at t&at's #aterial to
yor opinions relatin* to conflict$
.. Well, I t&in" !&at Mr. /rte*a is co##nicatin* is t&e *oal is for t&e tor to *o on, t&e
s&o! to *o on. .nd t&e *oal t&at is ass#ed in t&at is !e can't &ave anyt&in* slip. We
!ant to do everyt&in* to #a"e sre !e create a sc&edle so t&at !e can ac&ieve or
*oal of t&e tor *oin* for!ard.
A. .nd t&at sentence 'e*ins, EWe have +, days.E Is t&ere a parallel !it&in t&e sports
context t&at yo can 55
.. Well, sports are al!ays nder pressre. (&ere are sc&edled events t&at #st ta"e
place at certain ti#es, and t&ere's a season t&at needs to 'e 55 !&ere *a#es are spread
ot over t&at season. So t&ere's al!ays a ti#e fra#e *ettin* so#eone ready for a 'i*
*a#e, for exa#ple.
A. Did yo nderstand t&e point in t&e re&earsals at t&is 55 in t&is particlar series of
co##nications too" place$ In ot&er !ords, is it t&e very 'e*innin*, t&e #iddle, t&e
end$
.. It's to!ards t&e end.
A. .nd for t&e prposes of yor opinion, did yo nderstand 55 !&at nderstandin* did
yo &ave a'ot t&e increase in pressre of t&e perfor#ances to!ards t&e end$
.. Well, I'# not sre I dre! a direct conclsion fro# t&at, 't, o'viosly, if !e're <D days
a!ay fro# t&e tor, t&e pressre increases to finaliCe eac& and every part of t&at tor.
A. Does t&at &ave any parallel !it&in t&e sports !orld to, say, t&e fort& )arter of a

foot'all *a#e$
.. %es, it does. (&e pressre increases as yo *et closer to t&e end of t&e *a#e, for
exa#ple. -t t&ose "inds of pressre in sports can occr not only +st in a *a#e, 't
drin* a season itself. .nd an exa#ple of t&at is t&e "ind of t&in* t&at &appens !&en yo
*et a fe! in+ries on a tea#, and yo don't &ave really *reat players 'ac"in* p t&ose
first5strin* players t&at are in+red. .nd it's very possi'le yo cold !in a cople *a#es,
and t&en in t&e play5offs or post5season play, t&ere's a lot of pressre on t&e at&letes
in+red to *et 'ac" into t&e linep.
A. Well, in t&is particlar circ#stance, t&e relations&ip 'et!een ae* live, Dr. Mrray
and Mic&ael :ac"son, !as t&ere a second5strin* player !&o cold ta"e over if t&e first5
strin* player *ot &rt$
.. 8o.
A. W&at i#pact does t&at &ave on a conflict of interest$
.. Well, if Mic&ael :ac"son !as na'le to attend re&earsals or perfor#, t&e s&o! !old
stop co#pletely.
A. .nd !&at i#pact !old t&at &ave on Dr. Mrray$
.. 9e !oldn't &ave a +o', and &e !oldn't &ave an inco#e.
A. Dr. Mat&eson, did yo also revie! ex&i'it <7? as part of yor !or" in t&is case$
.. %es.
A. .nd did yo rely on t&at, in part, in yor opinions relatin* to conflict of interest$
.. %es, I did.
A. Wait for t&at to 'e 'ro*&t p. .nd !&at did yo nderstand ex&i'it <7? to 'e$
.. W&at it says to!ards t&e 'otto#, t&e last t&ree lines3 E'ongaware, -ileo, his doctor
named .onrad from /egas, and I have an intervention.E (&is is !ritten 'y =andy
P&illips.
Mr. Bloss: Hold on a second. 9e ha#e to ring up the e"ail to the one you%re
responding to.
A. /"ay. Is t&at t&e e#ail yo !ere +st tal"in* a'ot (indicatin*)$
.. %es, it is.
A. /"ay. W&at is it a'ot t&at e#ail yo considered i#portant for t&e prposes of yor
opinion$
.. Well, Mr. P&illips is callin* t&is #eetin* an intervention. EWe need to get everybody
together to get himE 55 #eanin* Mic&ael :ac"son 55 Eto focus and come to rehearsals
and get him fully engaged.E So it, a*ain, deals !it& t&e isse of independence in

#edical decision5#a"in*. So p&ysicians s&old 'e free to #a"e independent #edical


decisions on !&at t&e 'est care, 'est &ealt&care, is. .nd t&is *ets at t&e point t&at t&at
independence #ay 'e eroded.
A. .ll ri*&t. 8o!, did yo revie! any evidence as 55 fro# 55 !it&dra!n. Did yo revie!
also a series of e#ails t&at !ere la'eled Etrouble at the #rontE$
.. %es, I did.
A. .nd t&ere are #ltiple e#ails t&at &ave t&at la'el, are t&ere not$
.. %es, t&ere are.
A. .re t&ere so#e in particlar t&at yo t&o*&t !ere i#portant for t&e prposes of yor
conflict5of interest analysis$
Mr. Bloss: -nd speci!ically re!erring to e&hiit (*@) your honor.
2he .itness: 4es. 1 thin/ this .as an i"portant e0"ail !or "y testi"ony.
A. Start off !it& yor earlier e#ail on pa*e ?$
.. %es, if !e can.
A. W&atever yo !ant, doctor.
.. (&e earliest e#ail is !ritten fro# :o&n 9o*&da&l to Pal Bon*a!are and =andy
P&illips.
A. Did yo nderstand !&o :o&n 9o*&da&l !as$
.. :o&n 9o*&da&l, I 'elieve, is a tor director.
A. /"ay. .nd !&y is t&is particlar co##nication i#portant to yo$
.. It 'e*ins !it&3 EI$m not being a drama queen here.E .nd I +st !ondered !&y &e !as
)alifyin* t&ose co##ents. W&y did &e need to indicate t&at &e's not a dra#a )een
'efore &e delivers !&at is s'se)ently infor#ation on Mic&ael :ac"son's &ealt&$ (&en
&e *oes on to say3 EIt was 0enny that ased me to notify you,E Mic&ael :ac"son 55
EMJ was sent home without stepping foot on stage. )e was a baset case. 0enny
was concerned he would embarrass himself on stage or, worse yet, get hurt. 1he
doubt is pervasive.E so t&e one part of t&at is t&e co##nication of &ealt& concerns
fro# Mr. 9o*&da&l. (&e second is, I !ondered !&y &e needed to )alify t&ose
concerns, indicated it !as Ienny !&o s**ested t&ey 'e sent.
A. Do yo "no! !&ere t&e p&rase E'as"et caseE co#es fro#$
.. (&e E'as"et caseE p&rase, I t&in", is a #edical ter# sed in t&e first !orld !ar to
descri'e )adrple a#ptees !&o lost t&eir ar#s and le*s and cold 'e only carried
arond and re#oved in t&e 'attlefield in a 'as"et. I t&in" t&at's !&ere it co#es fro#.
A. .nd can yo s##ariCe !&y yo 'elieve t&is is an i#portant e#ail for t&e prposes

of yor opinion$
.. Well, i#portant e#ployee of ae* is co##nicatin* infor#ation concernin* Mr.
:ac"son's &ealt&. (&e infor#ation is tro'lin*. E'as"et caseE is a stron* !ord. Edo't is
pervasiveE is a fairly stron* p&rase in itself.
A. .ll ri*&t. .nd if yo contine c&ronolo*ically !it& t&is set of e#ails, is t&e next e#ail
fro# Mr. P&illips to Mr. ,ei!e"e s&ortly t&ereafter i#portant to yo$
.. %e
S, it is. (&at's :ne 06t&. .nd it +st si#ply says, EWe have a real problem here.E
A. W&y do yo consider t&at real i#portant for yor opinions$
.. I consider it i#portant for #y opinions 'ecase it tells #e t&at Mr. P&illips reco*niCes
t&ere is a pro'le# !it& declinin* &ealt& in Mr. :ac"son.
A. .ll ri*&t. .nyt&in* else a'ot t&at one$
.. Well, t&at reslted in t&e s**estion for a #eetin* 'ein* set p, 't not&in* else
specifically.
A. .ll ri*&t. .nd t&ere are a cople of e#ails tal"in* a'ot settin* p a #eetin*. Is t&ere
anyt&in* in particlar a'ot t&at t&at yo 'elieve is i#portant$ If yo ass#e t&at t&at
#eetin* relates to, 'y t&e !ay, Mr. :ac"son as opposed to Dr. Mrray, do yo 'elieve
t&ere's anyt&in* a'ot t&at t&at is i#portant$
.. 8ot particlarly.
A. /"ay. W&at's t&e next co##nication t&at yo 'elieve is i#portant for t&e prposes
of yor opinion$
.. (&at's t&e one fro# Ienny /rte*a to =andy P&illips on :ne <Dt&. -e*ins !it&, EI will
do whatever.E
A. /"ay. Can yo +st 55
Mr. Bloss: 1! .e can ring that up. 2hat%s on page +) to.ard the otto" o! e&hiit
(*@.
A. Dr. Mat&eson, !&at is it a'ot t&at particlar co##nication fro# Mr. /rte*a to Mr.
P&illips t&at yo 'elieve is #aterial to yor opinions$
.. Well, I t&in" t&ere are t!o t&in*s3 one is t&at Mr. /rte*a, !&o, as I nderstand it,
!or"s every day !it& Mr. :ac"son, is expressin* si*nificant &ealt& concerns. -e*innin*
t&e t&ird line3 E1he artist may be unable to rise to the occasion due to real
emotional stuff. )e appeared wea, quite wea, and fatigued this evening. )e had
a terrible case of the chills, was trembling, rambling, obsessing. &verything in me
says he should be psychologically evaluated. If we have any chance at all to get
him bac in the light, it$s going to tae a strong therapist to help him through, as
well as his immediate physical nurturing.E (&en &e *oes on to say3 E)e$s lost more
weight. 2o one is taing responsibility or caring for him on a daily basis. 1onight I

was feeding him, wrapping him with blanets to warm his chills, massaging his
feet to calm, and calling his doctor.E It ends !it& sayin*3 E1here still may be a
chance he can rise to the occasion if we can get him the help he needs.E So t&at's
t&e expression of si*nificant #edical concerns.
A. .nd did yo &ave an nderstandin* !&et&er Dr. Mrray !as actally en*a*ed 55
!it&dra!n. Did yo &ave an nderstandin* as to !&et&er Dr. Mrray !as on t&e scene
at t&is ti#e, :ne <Dt&$
.. %es. 9e !as !or"in* !it& Mr. :ac"son on :ne <Dt&.
A. 8o!, is t&ere anyt&in* else a'ot t&is particlar co##nication t&at yo 'elieve is
i#portant to yor opinions$
.. Well, t&e second is, ri*&t at t&e very 'e*innin*, to t&e second line, Mr. /rte*a says3
EMy concern is now that we$ve brought the doctor into the fold and have played
the $tough love, now or never$ card.E
A. W&y is t&at i#portant to yor opinions$
.. Well, !&at t&at says to #e is, E'rin*in* &i# into t&e fold,E s**ests t&e re#oval of
independence or re#oval of independent #edical decision5#a"in*. -t #oreover t&an
not, Eeven t&o*& !e've 'ro*&t t&e doctor into t&e fold,E it's still not !or"in*. We've still
*ot tro'les. 9e still isn't i#provin*.
A. Do yo "no! !&ere t&e p&rase E'rin* so#eone into t&e foldE co#es fro#$
.. I t&in" t&at's a s&eep fold. I #ay not &ave t&e ri*&t ter# for t&at, 't it's t&e place yo
pt s&eep !&en yo rond t&e# p. It's !&ere s&ep&erds pt s&eep.
A. So t&ey don't 55
.. Don't escape. (&ey don't *et ot. -t t&e state#ent to #e is, E)e$s being brought
into the fold,E t&at s**ests t&at &e's in fll ali*n#ent !it& t&e !ay !e t&in", as
opposed to 'ein* independent in &is decision5#a"in*. -t t&e i#portant t&in* t&ere is,
even t&o*& !e've done t&at, Mr. :ac"son still &as sy#pto#s or p&ysical co#plaints,
psyc&olo*ical co#plaints. It's not !or"in*, is !&at &e's sayin*.
A. 8o!, did Mr. P&illips respond to t&at e#ail in a !ay t&at yo considered i#portant$
.. (&e response is a'ove. %es, &e did respond. W&at &e says is3 E0enny, I will call you
when I figure this out.E So to #e, t&at is not a response. -ecase in #y !orld of
&ealt&care, and, particlarly, in sports #edicine, and particlarly if t&ere is any potential
conflict of interest, !&en so#e'ody raises an isse of &ealt& concerns, t&ere needs to
'e a rote to co##nicate t&at. (&ere needs to 'e an opportnity for t&ose concerns to
'e &eard and processed and dealt !it& in an appropriate #edical fas&ion. .nd a
response li"e EI'll call yo !&en I fi*re t&is otE 55 EIE 'ein* =andy P&illips, !&o is not
#edical, to #e is not a proper response.
A. Well, yor !or" at Stanford, settin* p conflict resoltion and conflict #iti*ation
#ec&anis#s, !&at !old yo do at Stanford in ter#s of a #ec&anis# relatin* to t&is$

.. Well, yor )estion is, aside fro# a conflict5of5interest environ#ent, !&at !old yo
do if 55
A. (o #iti*ate conflicts. (o redce t&is "ind of pro'le#.
.. =i*&t fro# t&e 'e*innin* in t&e first place$
A. Sre.
.. Well, t&e !ay !e've set it p at Stanford is, !e &ave t&e p&ysician in c&ar*e of t&e
&ealt&care. (&at's, I t&in", a very i#portant t&in*. (&e second is t&at !e &ave t&e
p&ysicians e#ployed 'y t&e University so t&at t&ey do additional !or" and &ave ot&er
responsi'ilities, li"e teac&in* and researc&, so t&at t&e decision t&ey #a"e for at&letes or
retrn5to5play decisions don't affect t&eir inco#e. I t&in" t&at's i#portant. We &ave a
separate facility !&ere t&ere are confidential discssions t&at can ta"e place !&ere t&e
coac& or ot&er a*ents are not in t&e roo#. .nd !e &ave re*lar #eetin*s !&ere !e
discss difficlt cases, and if t&ere's any potential for conflict, !e discss t&at. We &ave
#eetin*s !it& t&e ad#inistrative staff of t&e at&letic depart#ent, !it& coac&es, to
discss t&ose specifically. So t&e &ope is !e !oldn't *et too far do!n t&e road of a
conflict5of5interest sitation.
A. .ll ri*&t. Dr. Mat&eson, is t&ere a response 'y Mr. /rte*a to Mr. P&illips' e#ail t&at
yo considered to 'e i#portant$
.. %es. (&e response is a'ove fro# Mr. /rte*a, and it is t&e contined co##nication of
&ealt& concerns. In t&e first line3 EI honestly don$t thin he is ready for this.E W&ic&, to
#e, is a pretty stron* state#ent sayin* t&at t&e artist is not ready to *o for!ard !it& t&e
tor. E3ased on his continued physical weaening and deepening emotional state,
it$s reminiscent of what aren, bush, travis and I remember. 1here are strong
signs of paranoia, an(iety, and obsessive%lie behavior. I thin the very best thing
we can do is get a top psychiatrist in to evaluate him !4!P.E
A. .ll ri*&t. W&y did yo 'elieve t&at !as i#portant$
.. Well, after Mr. P&illips doesn't really respond, EI'll fi*re t&is ot,E Ienny sends 55
Ienny /rte*a sends a #essa*e 'ac", sayin*, E!e &ave so#e real concerns &ere. I !ant
yo to "no! t&at t&ese are si*nificant eno*& t&at I'# not sre &e's ready for t&is. We
&ave to do so#et&in*,E is !&at &e's sayin*, in #y #ind.
A. .nd yo've revie!ed s'stantial #aterials relatin* to t&is case, Dr. Mat&eson$
.. %es, I &ave.
A. Did yo see any evidence t&at a top psyc&iatrist !as 'ro*&t in to evalate Mr.
:ac"son$
.. 8o, I don't.
A. 8o!, I !ant to direct yor attention to t&e next e#ail, =andy P&illips' response in
ex&i'it 2D750 (indicatin*). Is t&at 55 is t&is co##nication i#portant to yo in any !ay, Dr.

Mat&eson$
.. %es, it is.
A. 9o! so$
.. Well, t&ere are several t&in*s t&at t&is e#ail says. (&e first is t&at Mr. P&illips
reco*niCes t&at Mr. :ac"son's &ealt& is declinin*.
A. W&ere do yo see t&at$
.. It's t&e t&ird line 'e*innin* !it& E9e.E *)e* 55 'ein* Dr. Mrray 55 Esaid that Michael
is not only physically equipped to perform and that discouraging him to will
hasten his decline instead of stopping it.E
A. So fro# a conflict5of5interest point of analysis, !&at does t&at #ean to yo$ W&y is
t&at #aterial$
.. (&at #eans t&at Mr. P&illips reco*niCes t&at Mr. :ac"son's &ealt& is declinin*, 't t&e
p&ysician in t&is case is reco##endin* retrn to re&earsal, in spite of &is declinin*
&ealt&, and, to #y nderstandin*, !it&ot a clear dia*nosis or nderstandin* of !&at t&e
#edical pro'le# is.
A. .ll ri*&t. So fro# a point of vie! of conflicts of interest, !old a p&ysician #a"e t&at
retrn5to5play decision !it&ot findin* ot !&at t&e pro'le# !as$
.. 8o. In #edicine in *eneral, and also particlarly in sports #edicine, !e need a
dia*nosis to "no! !&at t&e pro'le# is, and t&erefore !&at t&e treat#ent is 'efore !e
can retrn so#eone to sport. (&at's a pri#ary t&in*.
A. .nd yo've read testi#ony in t&is case relatin* to a #eetin* t&at !as &eld after t&is
e#ail at t&e carol!ood &ose$
.. %es, I &ave.
A. .nd specifically, yo've read Mr. P&illips' testi#ony relatin* to t&at #eetin*$
.. %es.
A. %o re#e#'er Mr. P&illips offerin* any testi#ony a'ot !&et&er Dr. Mrray provided
a #edical dia*nosis for !&at Mr. :ac"son's pro'le# &ad 'een$
.. I don't 'elieve t&ere ever !as a dia*nosis.
Ms. Steins: 5jection. Aac/s !oundation) the !act that Mr. Phillips doesn%t /no.
the diagnosis doesn%t "ean there .asn%t a diagnosis.
Mr. Bloss: 1 hope "y :uestion 00
Mr. Panish: 9ait. She already ruled.

Judge: 1 thin/ 1 "u"led.


Mr. Panish: -ll right.
Mr. Bloss: 1 didn%t hear) your honor. 1%" sorry.
Mr. Panish: She already 00 did 1 "ishear3
Judge: 4eah) you "isheard. 9hat are you going to say3
Mr. Bloss: 1%" saying .hat Mr. Phillips relayed) testi!ied that Dr. Murray said. Did
Dr. Murray tell Phillips that there .as a diagnosis. 2hat%s .hat 1 "eant to say.
Ms. Steins: 4our honor) 1 didn%t ha#e a prole" .ith the :uestion) ut the
ans.er .as ,1 don%t elie#e there e#er .as a diagnosis., 2here is no !oundation
!or that) no e#idence as to .hether Dr. Murray understood .hat .as going on .ith
his patient or not.
Judge: 5/ay. 5#erruled.
A. So !&at else, if anyt&in*, a'ot t&is e#ail, Dr. Mat&eson, do yo consider i#portant$
.. Well, t&e ot&er t&in* a'ot t&e e#ails, Mr. P&illips reco*niCes or ac"no!led*es t&at
Dr. Mrray is reco##endin* t&at Mr. :ac"son contine to re&earse in spite of declinin*
&ealt&.
A. W&y is t&at i#portant to yo$
.. Well, !e !oldn't nor#ally pt an at&lete 'ac" into t&e *a#e !&o &as continin*
sy#pto#s or !orsenin* sy#pto#s related to t&eir &ealt&.
A. W&y$
.. -ecase pres#a'ly t&e at&lete is ot&er!ise &ealt&y ot&er t&an !&atever direct
pro'le# is *oin* on. .nd !e try to i#prove t&eir level of &ealt&, *et t&e# 'ac" to nor#al,
and t&en pt t&e# 'ac" in t&e *a#e. It !oldn't 'e in t&eir 'est interest &ealt&5!ise to
pt t&e# 'ac" into t&e *a#e !&en t&eir &ealt& is declinin*.
A. .nyt&in* else a'ot t&is e#ail yo consider i#portant in t&e conflict of interest$
.. %es. I t&in" to!ards t&e end of t&at first para*rap&, Mr. P&illips reco*niCes t&at conflict
of interest is an i#portant isse for a p&ysician. 9e !rites3 E1his doctorE 55 Dr. Mrray 55
Eis e(tremely successful 5we chec everyone out6. )e does not need this gig. )e is
totally unbiased and ethical.E (&e fact t&at Mr. P&illips realiCes t&at is i#portant, to #e,
it s**ests t&at &e realiCes t&e potential for conflict of interest in t&is environ#ent.
A. 8o!, if yo cold pt t&is into so#e type of context. We tal"ed a'ot conflicts earlier.
(&at a doctor !&o does not need a *i*, a +o' financially, #ay not &ave t&at financial
secondary pressre yo tal"ed a'ot$
.. =i*&t.

A. 9o! a'ot 55
.. (&at's tre.
A. 9o! a'ot a doctor !&o does need t&is *i*$ W&at's t&e i#pact of financial pressre
on t&at doctor$
.. (&at &is 55 t&at &e #ay not actally 'e n'iased, !&ic& is !&at t&e literatre indicates.
9e #ay not 'e n'iased, t&at t&e secondary interest #ay affect &is #edical +d*#ent.
A. .ll ri*&t. Dr. Mat&eson 55
.. (&e t&in* t&at I also t&in" is i#portant a'ot t&at is t&at if Mr. P&illips 'elieves t&at t&e
doctor is not conflicted, t&en t&e decision t&e doctor #a"es #edically #st 'e a *ood
#edical decision. It's not affected 'y a conflict, so it #st 'e a *ood #edical decision. I
t&in" t&at's !&at's co##nicated &ere.
A. .nd t&e representation t&at &e does not need t&is *i* so &e is totally n'iased yo
'elieve is indicative of !&at, fro# a conflict point of vie!$
.. It's indicatin* t&at t&ere's "no!led*e t&at t&ere's a potential conflict t&ere, 't t&at's
not t&e case. /r t&e co##nication fro# Mr. P&illips is t&at's not t&e case. So t&ese
#edical decisions Dr. Mrray is #a"in* aren't related to a conflict of interest, alt&o*& &e
reco*niCes t&at t&at's a potential &ere.
A. So t&e !ay yo interpret it for yor prposes of yor opinion is t&at &e reco*niCes t&e
potential of a financial conflict of interest 't clai#s to Mr. /rte*a t&at t&ere isn't one$
.. Correct. .nd in #y experience in sports #edicine, it's +st si#ply any reco*nition of
t&e potential for a conflict t&at tri**ers action to loo" into it or to investi*ate it.
Mr. Bloss: 5/ay. 1s this a good place to stop) your honor3
Judge: 4es. Aet%s do that. B:76 to"orro..
Mr. Panish: 2han/ you.
Judge: 2han/ you.
(the jury e&its the courtroo")
Judge: /"ay. ,et #e as" consel, do yo &ave anyt&in* to#orro! yo !ant #e to rle
on, 'ecase if yo do 55 li"e ar*#ent, for exa#ple$
Mr. Panish: I !as +st tal"in* to Ms. Ste''ins, 't I t&in", 'ased on !&at Ms. Ca&an
said, &er and Mr. -oyle !ere *oin* to try to co##nicate> ri*&t$

Ms. Cahan: =i*&t.


Mr. Panish: /n Mr. ,ei!e"e.
Ms. Cahan: .nd t&ere !as one open isse still !it& respect to Dr. ;in"elstein.
Mr. Panish: =i*&t.
Ms. Cahan: W&ic& !as t&at isse of t&e varios &earsay state#ents of Dr. ;orecast.
Judge: /&, t&at's ri*&t.
Ms. Cahan: (&at is still an open isse> ot&er!ise, t&at video is ready to 'e played, and I
'elieve t&at's an &or and a &alf.
Mr. Panish: So, yea&, t&e ans!er to yor )estion is, t&e first t&in* !old 'e t&at Dr.
;in"elstein, one. .nd !e cold co#e all ready on t&at, and &ave it all ready for yo, and
*et t&e transcript and t&e isse for yo for t&e ar*#ent. (&en on lei!e"e, Mr. -oyle and
Ms. Ca&an !ere *oin* to try to #eet and &opeflly redce do!n anyt&in* t&at yo
needed to rle on at t&is ti#e.
Ms. Steins: -t in ter#s of to#orro!, Mr. -loss, &o! #c& do yo &ave left$
Mr. Bloss: I &ave less t&an &alf an &or, nless Mr. Panis& overrles #e.
Ms. Steins: I &ave so#e!&ere 'et!een t!o and t&ree &ors at t&is point, I'#
*essin*. Won't ta"e a fll day. -t it #i*&t !it& redirect and recross. So I don't "no! if
yo !ant to &ave ar*#ent on t&ose in t&e #ornin* 'efore t&e +ry co#es in or 55
Judge: (&at's !&at I !as as"in*. May'e yo can co#e in a little early.
Mr. Panish: %ea&, I nderstand. W&atever 55 let s 55 !e'll 'e &ere to ar*e. ,et s
spea" !it& Ms. Ca&an and see !&at !e're 55 !&at's t&e 'est corse of action.
Judge: W&y don't !e do t&is3 Can I acco##odate 632D$
Mr. Panish: We'll co#e at 632D.
Judge: If yo're ready at 632D, co#e &ere.
Mr. Panish: Sre.
Judge: If yo don't &ave anyt&in*, yo don't &ave to s&o! p.
Mr. Panish: /"ay. ;air eno*&. If !e !ant to ar*e, !e'll 'e &ere at 632D.
Ms. Steins: .nd if after revie!in* #y notes, I &ave &ors and &ors of cross, I'll let
yo "no!.
Mr. Panish: ;ine. W&atever yo need.

Judge: (&an" yo.


(court adjourned until June +6) +*'() at B:76 a")

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