This action might not be possible to undo. Are you sure you want to continue?
(CEO of Concert West division of AEG Live)
Ms. Stebbins: Defense calls John Meglen, your honor.
Judge: Just as an introduction, we've now begun the defense case, although the Plaintiffs
haven't formally rested because we have somebody we're calling back. But it doesn't matter,
we're going to present the defense witnesses.
Mr. Panish: They actually called two other witnesses out of order.
Judge: True. Sometimes these things get jumbled up.
Mr. Putnam: But now we're starting.
Judge: Right. I just wanted to let you know that.
The clerk: Sir, can you please state and spell your first and last name for the record.
The witness: John, j-o-h-n, Meglen, m-e-g-l-e-n.
The clerk: Thank you.
Judge: Thank you. You may begin.
Direct examination by Jessica Stebbins:
Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Meglen.
A. Good afternoon.
Q. What do you do for a living?
A. I'm a concert promoter.
Q. Where do you work?
A. I work at AEG Live.
Q. What's your job at AEG Live officially?
A. I am the president and CEO of Concerts West.
Q. We've heard a little bit about Concerts West in this trial already, but what is Concerts
A. Concerts West is a division of AEG Live that does global and national tours of artists,
Q. And so you're not the president, CEO of AEG Live, right?
Q. Who is that?
A. Randy Phillips.
Q. And we've also heard testimony from a Co-CEO of Concerts West. Do you have a Co-
A. Yes, I do; Paul Gongaware.
Q. So you and Mr. Gongaware share responsibilities for Concerts West?
A. Yes, we do.
Q. And what -- whether or not -- tell us generally what you do in your business.
A. What we do is we -- we look for concert tours that we can promote and/or produce, and
take those tours either through different territories of the world, maybe just north america,
europe, worldwide, but we go out and promote the concerts through their entire tour.
Q. And do you have any businesses besides concert tours? For instance, festivals or
A. Concerts West also watches over the Las Vegas business for AEG Live, which consists of
the coliseum at caesars palace and the joint at the hard rock hotel and casino, and
occasionally a few other properties in Las Vegas where we've done some residencies.
Q. And is there other business that AEG Live does that's not done under the Concerts West
A. Yes. A. .E.G. Live has regional offices, has some additional touring divisions, and that's
pretty much it.
Q. Now, you said that Mr. Gongaware is your Co-CEO of Concerts West. Do you and he
have the same job?
A. Not exactly.
Q. Tell us -- we've heard a bit from him about what he does. What's the difference between
what you do and what Mr. Gongaware does?
A. Paul works on specific tours, and -- whereas I am pretty much the office guy and I'm -- I'm
in the office most of the time, and watching over all of our different tours and our -- and our
different artists that we are touring.
Q. Now, does Mr. Gongaware even have an office at AEG Live?
A. No, he does not.
Q. And do you and Mr. Gongaware typically work jointly on tours, or do you have kind of a
A. Our philosophy is more we split things up between the two of us of who is going to watch
over what in terms of which tour, you know, we're both going to -- we're each going to take
Q. And let's talk a little bit about your background. How long have you been in the concert
A. I started in 1978 in Seattle, Washington, at another Concerts West; and so I guess I've
been pretty much just doing concert tours for 35 years.
Q. Were you in college in Washington state?
A. I went to college at Washington state university, yes.
Q. And were you at that point studying to be a concert promoter?
A. No; I was studying to be a veterinarian.
Q. Something changed along the way?
A. I got very involved in the student activities and, you know, there was a very big college
concert program in the '70's throughout most universities, so I kind of got -- I fell in love with it.
Q. Did you learn any useful veterinary skills before you left college to become a promoter?
A. We put on a few festivals at colleges, but they weren't quite as sophisticated as what we
Q. I asked if you learned any veterinary skills.
A. I don't know. I kind of say sometimes I still work with animals.
Q. Did you graduate college?
A. No, I did not.
Q. So how did you get started in the concert business? You mentioned you did a couple of
performances at college?
A. I was a guitar player in high school and knew I wasn't good enough to be up on the stage,
I guess, but I -- I really loved the business of the music business.
Q. And what did you do after you left college to -- to start your career?
A. I went to work for Concerts West. I started as a tour promoter production manager; and,
you know, that was kind of the job where you do everything from stagehand calls to catering,
ushers, ticket takers, security. You know, general coordination of a lot of the staffing and after
Q. Was that Concerts West that you worked at in Seattle the same Concerts West that you're
the Co-CEO of now?
A. No, it was a different Concerts West.
Q. And is that company still in existence?
A. No. That company ceased to exist I think sometime in the late 1980's.
Q. So talking about the old Concerts West for a moment, working at the old Concerts West
when you started, did you get to know someone named Paul Gongaware?
A. Yes. Paul and I were 18. We used to have two-man teams that would go out and do tours.
One person would be really the senior who did the settlement, kind of did a little bit of the
interaction with the artist camp, their managers, their agents, or whatever, more handled the
financial aspects, whereas the junior guy, which is what I started as with Paul, like I said, was
more doing stagehands and catering and making sure that there were towels in the dressing
Q. So you were the junior guy. Was Mr. Gongaware also a junior guy?
A. No; he was my senior back then.
Q. So did you work together with him at Concerts West?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And what kinds of work did you do in that time period, just generally?
A. Back then we did the bad company desolation angels tour, we did the commodores
heroes tour, we were in the process of putting a led zeppelin tour on sale when John Bonham
passed away, so that tour did not happen, but Paul and I worked as a team on a couple of
tours before I graduated to become a senior myself.
Q. And just to give us an idea of the time period, when was this that you're starting work at
Concerts West and working with Mr. Gongaware?
A. I believe it was in 1978.
Q. And did you eventually graduate from being the -- the junior guy to being a senior guy?
A. That was the general pattern back then. You would start as a tour production guy and then
you would work your way into being more of a settlement guy, someone that handled more of
Q. And when you say "settlement guy," what do you mean?
A. The settlement person is -- today we have separate tour accountants that do that. Back
then, we really didn't have separate tour accountants, but that was the person who would
settle the box office in terms of the tickets sold versus the tickets unsold, the expenses,
everything from hall rentals to all of the different bills, marketing bills, advertising bills, things
of that nature.
Q. And did there come a time when Mr. Gongaware left Concerts West while you were still
A. Yes. Paul always wanted to work in the movie business, and
our boss at the time was doing a movie called "diner," and so Paul took a leave of absence to
go be a production assistant on "diner" in Baltimore.
Q. So Mr. Gongaware left Concerts West to go put his toe into the movies?
A. He always wanted to work on movies, and he took a very big pay cut to go and be
involved in working on a movie production.
Q. And I'm going to cover more of your background, but when is the next time that you
worked with Mr. Gongaware again?
A. Paul and I didn't actually work together again until we formed our company. We may have
done a couple of little projects. Paul was actually running warren miller ski films for a few
years; and I helped him with a couple of, you know, home videos, "learn to ski," "learn to ski
better," home videos like that. But we really didn't -- those were just small one-off projects.
We really didn't work together side by side until we formed our new company.
Q. Do you remember approximately when Mr. Gongaware left the old Concerts West?
A. Early '80's, and I'm guessing.
Q. And then when did you form the new Concerts West with him?
A. Not until approximately '98. '97, '98, somewhere in that time period.
Q. So maybe 15 years, you were not really working together?
A. Yes. We were always friends, but we were not working together.
Q. So after Mr. Gongaware left Concerts West, did you still work at Concerts West Seattle?
A. Actually, I moved from Concerts West in Seattle in around 1980 down to the Los Angeles
offices and stayed there up until 1990.
Q. And what kind of work did you do during that time period?
A. Mainly tours. I oversaw -- we also had a management company at that time, so we could
either be a promoter sometimes or be the management rep sometimes. But my job was really,
even if we were on the management side, to still watch over the tours.
Q. And we've heard some discussion in this case about concert production versus concert
promotion versus management. What is your background?
A. My background is concert promotion. Pretty much, you know, a small bit of management
for a while, and -- and some experience on the producing side, but predominantly the concert
Q. And as between you and Mr. Gongaware, who has more experience with concert
A. Paul definitely had more experience than I on production. Paul is more of a -- he's a techie
by nature, he's kind of a production guy by nature. It's -- it's -- you know, it's what he's always
Q. And you said you worked with Concerts West up until 1990. Can you just give me a brief
kind of sampling of the acts you worked with?
A. John Denver, Neil Diamond, the Beach Boys, three dog night, the eagles, the moody
blues, Eric Clapton, the commodores, bad company, the bee gees. Many, many different
Q. And did there come a time when you left Concerts West?
A. Yes. I left concerts -- I left Concerts West -- well, actually, it wasn't even Concerts West at
that time. It was called the Weintraub Entertainment Group. And I left that company at the end
of June 1990.
Q. And what did you do at that point?
A. I went to work for a man Michael Cole, a company called B.C.L. In Toronto, and took a job
as a director of touring for his company.
Q. And what did -- what did B.C.L. Stand for?
A. Ballard Cole Labatz (phonetic).
Q. And what did you do at that company?
A. I was the director of touring.
Q. So was it also a concert promotion company?
A. Yes, it was a concert touring company.
Q. And what kind of work did you do there?
A. There we planned and routed worldwide tours for different artists, did everything from
building deals to advertising to ticketing to all of the things that a promoter does.
Q. Were there any differences between what you did at B.C.L. From what you did at
Concerts West in terms of the core sort of work that you did?
A. It was generally known in the business that Michael Cole kind of took the touring to
another step. Michael started adding in revenues of merchandising and some sponsorship
and some broadcast revenues into his deals. The business was getting a little more
sophisticated and a little more complex.
Q. What do you mean by "merchandising"?
A. Well, in the original days we simply sold tickets, we paid the expenses that night, and what
was left over would be split between the artist and the promoter. Later on, they started -- you
know, the merchandising business became a more sophisticated business trying to find tour
sponsors, people of that -- you know, trying to see if you could do a broadcast of one of your
shows, other things that would generate revenue, you know, to, in a sense, collateralize your
risk that you had with the artist.
Q. So would these be kind of secondary types of revenue from a tour --
A. Yes, exactly.
Q. -- way to put it?
A. In fact, we use the term "ancillary revenue streams".
Q. And so you did more of that at B.C.L.?
A. Well, it wasn't that we did more. I still did my primary function, which was to route tours
and to cut building deals and to figure out ticket scalings and prices and advertising and all of
the normal things that a concert promoter did. There were other experts at the company that I
would say worked on more of the merchandising or the broadcast opportunities that could
come from a tour.
Q. When you say "routing a tour," what -- what does that mean?
A. Routing a tour is a process of going, selecting what markets you're going to go to. Once
you have a general idea of which markets you would like to go to, you need to call each one
of the venues and make -- find out what days they're available. If it's an N.B.A. . Or an N.H.L.
Venue, they, obviously, have their season and their games. There's other things like ice
shows and family shows, other concerts, things of that nature that play in these buildings. So
you're trying to find a route that -- that works for the artist that allows us to travel from city to
city in a reasonable amount of time to be able to get there and set the show up and do it
Q. So if I'm building a tour and I wanted my act to play in Los Angeles, say, on august 3rd, I'd
have to check Los Angeles venues and see if any of them were available on august 3rd?
A. Yes, absolutely.
Q. And then otherwise check to make sure they have all the right things I needed for my act?
A. Well, we kind of know the buildings; and we -- we've been doing it a long time, so we know
what venues, you know, are applicable versus what venues are not applicable depending on
what the show is or the artist that we're touring.
Q. And how long did you work for B.C.L.?
A. Seven years.
Q. So when did you stop working there?
A. At -- I think it was early '97. I'm not always the best -- I think it was '9 -- end of '96,
beginning of 1997.
Q. And how did you come to leave B.C.L.?
A. I was solicited by Michael Cole and a man named Arthur Fogel to come work with them.
They had just acquired -- prior to that they had acquired the rights to do the rolling stones
steel wheels tour. That was really the first tour that they had done. They weren't touring guys,
per se. They were more local promoters in the Canadian marketplace, but they wanted to go
into the touring business. So their line back then was, "if we're going to go into the touring
business, we should hire a Concerts West guy."
Q. I thought I asked how you came to leave. Did you just tell me how you came to start
A. How I came to start working there?
A. At B.C.L.?
A. Yeah, that was how I came to start working there.
Q. Can you give me a sampling of the tours that you did while you were there?
A. We did numerous rolling stones tours. We did voodoo lounge, we did urban jungle, we did
the Pink Floyd division bell tour, Paul Simon born at the right time, David Bowie sounds and
vision, Bowie nails, Bowie Morrissey, began working on the first U2 tour that the company did,
but actually left prior to that tour beginning.
Q. You said you think you left in early 1997?
Q. And what did you do next?
A. I was approached by a company based out of Houston, Texas, named pace, p-a-c-e.
Q. Is that the salsa company?
A. No. I think it actually stood for promotions, assemblies, conventions and exhibitions. It was
a company that I was told originally started by doing the auto show, and I think a boat show at
the Houston Astrodome.
Q. And what did pace want to hire you for?
A. Pace at that time had a number of regional offices in North America, and they owned a
number of amphitheaters across North America, and they -- they felt that they wanted to be in
the touring business. So the man who ran the company was a man named Brian Becker, and
Brian started calling me and asking me if I would like to join them and start their touring
Q. And did you ultimately do that?
A. Ultimately, I did.
Ms. Stebbins: And is now a good time to take our break, your honor?
Judge: Can you go until 3:15?
Ms. Stebbins: Sure.
Q. What did you do at pace touring?
A. Well, pace touring was kind of my own touring company. For the first time, it was really my
own that I got to build in that. The very -- the very first show we actually did as part of pace
touring was Michael Jackson in Fukuoka, Japan. We were hired to -- by a Japanese firm to
help them put that show together.
Q. I'm going to come back to the Fukuoka shows in a little bit. How long were you at pace
A. I think it was only about two years, and then the entire company was acquired. I mean, we
-- we created -- while we were there, we did the Fleetwood Mac, their first reunion tour, the
one with Christine that had all of the members.
We created --
Mr. Panish: Your honor, I hate to object; but the question was, "How long were you with the
The witness: Two years.
Mr. Panish: Thank you.
Q. What kind of work did you do while you were there?
A. We did the Fleetwood Mac reunion tour, we created a program that Sharon Osbourne and
I created called Ozzfest with Ozzy, and we created the George strait country music festival.
These were really the three primary businesses. We had a few other shows here and there
that we did.
Q. You mentioned a festival. Had you done festival work before?
A. Yes. I mean, you always come in and out of festivals at different times. Doing a festival
was kind of -- being a concert promoter, you know, you end up doing some festivals along the
Q. And did you produce the country music festival, or just promote it, or --
A. On that, we did everything. We produced that and promoted that. It was --
It was a different type of festival. It was really a stadium show with a village in the parking lot,
but we called it the George strait country music festival.
Q. And how long -- you said you were at pace for two years?
A. Two years; and then the company was acquired by a man named Bob Silverman and
S.F.X. Entertainment who was buying up all of the concert promoters across the country.
Q. And does S.F.X. Entertainment still exist?
A. No. S.F.X. Entertainment was sold to Clear Channel radio, and Clear Channel radio spun
that company off to the company that exists today which is called LiveNation.
Q. So if I understand it right, the company you worked for, pace, was hired by -- was acquired
by the company that eventually became LiveNation, AEG Live's competitor?
A. Yes. Most people in our business would say that pace is now part of LiveNation.
Q. And did you keep working at S.F.X. Once it was acquired -- once pace was acquired?
A. For a very short time.
Q. And when did you leave?
A. Probably three to six months after the acquisition. I wasn't there very long.
Q. And why did you leave?
A. I had some fundamental differences with a couple of the new -- my new boss, bosses.
Q. And what were those differences about?
A. I had always been raised in the business that when you do a tour, you're always doing
what's best for the artist. When we started pace touring, I asked that question of Allen Becker,
who was the original founder, Brian's dad; and I gave him a specific example. I said, "you
guys own an amphitheater in Philadelphia; but if I'm doing this tour and the right place for this
artist to play is the spectrum, the arena, and not your amphitheater, where do I go?" and his
response is, "John, we're investing in you because of your business, so you do what's right for
your business. I would like to think that on a jump ball, you would play our facility." I asked
that same question of a man named Michael Farrell, who was either the COO Or CEO of this
newly formed S.F.X. Entertainment, and his answer to me was, "I think you know where your
bread is buttered," meaning, "we're paying you and you'll play our place." and I remember that
conversation very clearly. It happened at the four seasons hotel the night of the academy
awards. And I just looked at him and said, "then you and I come from a different place."
Q. What did you do after leaving S.F.X.?
A. Well, I actually just quit to begin with, and I wanted to go up to -- my family is originally
from Montana, so I just wanted to go up to Montana and hang out for a little bit, so that's
initially what I did.
Q. Did there come a time where you wanted to do something other than hang out in
A. Yeah. I mean, I was approached by Paul Gongaware to say, "hey, why don't we go start up
our own company and we'll be the other guys, we'll be the little guys, you know, taking on the
big corporations?" just wanted to be the little boutique guys.
Q. Now, we've heard a little bit about the rivalry between AEG Live and LiveNation, its
competitor now. Are you trying to catch LiveNation as -- to be the largest concert promoter in
the united states?
A. No, not as far as I'm concerned, and not as far as other people in our company are
Q. Who is bigger, you or LiveNation?
A. Livenation has a bigger concert company, so LiveNation is bigger than AEG Live in terms
of the concert business, but AEG, the parent company, is bigger than LiveNation. A. Lot of
people get that confused.
Q. Are you in any way desperate to become bigger than LiveNation?
A. No, I don't -- I actually don't think being number 1 is a good position to be in.
Q. All right. Why not? I would think number 1 would be the best to be.
A. Kind of the avis theory. We're quality over quantity. We try to, you know, be better. That's
kind of our thing. We'd rather do a fewer number of really good things than have to try and
Q. All right. So Mr. Gongaware comes up to you and says, "let's start a company," and you
A. I was a little cautious at first; but yes, I did say yes. I was a little nervous about being a
little guy taking on the big guys.
Q. And what company did you eventually start?
A. We formed Concerts West.
Q. And -- and when was that?
A. '98, I'm guessing -- yeah, '98, maybe the end of '97, right around there.
Q. Was Concerts West successful right away?
Q. Was Concerts West, your new company, successful right away?
A. Oh, no.
Q. Did it ultimately become successful?
A. Yeah. I mean, you know, are you talking about financially successful? Are you just talking
about reputation wise successful? I think we're very successful now.
Q. What kinds of work did you do in the early years before you became AEG Live?
A. I think -- well, a couple of things. One of the very first tours we did was Andrea Bocelli's
first tour. It was really predominately a west coast tour, didn't work a whole lot of shows, had
to take a whole lot of time off in between shows. So Bocelli. We then promoted Mariah
Carey's tour. It was really the first time she'd ever done a tour. We then went after the Dixie
chicks -- they were pretty hot at that time -- and ended up getting their tour. So there were --
you know, we were able to knock off a few. We were the little guys, but we were able to get a
-- get a few tours and, you know, make a little bit of money.
Q. And did -- did there come a time where you were, for lack of a better word, acquired by
A. Yes, we were.
Q. And who was that?
Q. And at that point, did you eventually become AEG Live?
A. Yes. I think the original name of the company was AEG Concerts, and then it morphed into
Q. Okay. And what was your role in AEG Live?
A. Originally I was the CEO of the company.
Q. And then did that change at some point?
A. At a certain point, I moved more into just touring and the Vegas -- the Vegas project was a
very major project for us when we launched Celine's show in Las Vegas, and so I virtually
spent probably a year to two years going back and forth to Las Vegas on that.
Q. When you say the "Vegas project," what do you mean by that?
A. Celine Dion wanted to become a resident artist in Las Vegas and do a show with the
creator "O," a man named Franco Dragone.
Q. What's "o"?
A. "O," the Cirque show at Bellagio in Las Vegas. And so it was this marriage between Celine
and this great director, and we thought it would be a winner.
Q. Had you ever done a Vegas show before?
A. No. We'd done concerts in Vegas on our tours, but had never produced a vegas tour -- a
Vegas show before.
Q. So that was a new kind of business for AEG Live?
A. Yeah, it was pretty much considered a -- you know, the -- the residency as we look at it
today in the music industry did not exist really up until Celine.
Q. And by "residency," what do you mean?
A. Residency is where the artist's in one place and the audience comes to them instead of
the artist going everywhere to them.
Q. And was Celine's show the first residency that AEG Live did?
Mr. Panish: Excuse me. Just -- can we get the year?
Judge: You mean of the first residency?
Mr. Panish: When he keeps saying that, I'm not sure what year we're talking about.
The witness: I think we opened in 2002, I'm guessing, maybe -- yeah, I think it was 2002.
Mr. Panish: Thank you.
The witness: I'm terrible with years, but it was probably within a year either side of that.
Judge: This is the Las Vegas residency?
The witness: The Las Vegas show, correct.
Q. So your first show in the early 2000's in Las Vegas that you opened with Celine Dion, you
Q. Have you done more residencies since then as a company?
A. We've mounted a total of eight shows at the coliseum, we've mounted four or five at the
joint at the hard rock, we have done a couple at the Paris hotel, Barry Manilow and now a
new artist named Veronic. I think she's at Bally's, actually. We've done a few others, dancing
with the stars at Tropicana and America's got talent at the venetian.
Q. Any other kind of solo artist like Celine Dion?
A. Yes. We've done Elton John, rod Stewart, Cher, Bette Midler -- missing somebody -- jerry
Q. And who now is responsible, for lack of a better word, for sort of managing these Vegas
shows for AEG Live?
A. I still am.
Q. So you -- you're in charge of all of those?
A. Yeah. I've got really good people, but -- yes, I -- those are -- yeah, I'm responsible for
Q. So at some point did someone else come in to be the sort of CEO of AEG Live?
A. Randy came in as the CEO of AEG Live about a year
and a half, two years into the existence of AEG Live.
Q. And when, about, was that?
A. It was right around the opening of Celine, so -- I remember he started literally right before
we opened Celine, a week or two. So I think that was may of 2002 somewhere. Again, I'm not
good with dates.
Q. And what was Mr. Gongaware's role in this time period while you were sort of working on
the Vegas shows and dealing with some of the touring business?
A. Well, the year we were opening up the Vegas show, Paul actually did have to come into
the office and have an office there because he kind of kept track of touring properties while I
was in Vegas.
Q. And by "touring properties," do you mean a show?
A. Other tours that we were doing at that time.
Ms. Stebbins: Now I want to turn back to something you said a moment ago. And it might be
better to go into this after the break, because I was going to ask you about the Fukuoka
Judge: That's fine. Actually, my staff has asked for a longer break,
So 3:30. 3:30, come back.
Mr. Panish: Your honor, I didn't know if you wanted to address the issue with Plaintiffs.
Judge: Okay. We'll do it right now. So back at 3:30.
(the following proceedings were held in open court, outside the presence of the jurors):
Judge: Okay. You wanted to talk?
Mr. Panish: Yes, your honor. Numerous issues. But number 1, I was given -- we were given
some exhibits from Ms. Bina this morning, and I'd like to go -- does the court have a copy?
Mr. Panish: Okay. Well, I think it might be helpful if you did. First of all, this witness is not
designated as an expert witness. I believe that he's going to try to give expert witness
Ms. Stebbins: He's not.
Mr. Panish: And I can see it through the exhibits and through -- if we take a look, let's just
start with the expert testimony. The first is the exhibit number defense 1328, which is Mr. Erk's
Mr. Putnam: I'm going to get those for you, your honor, if I can step out one second? I think
they just walked out with them. Is that all right, your honor?
Mr. Panish: The first one -- I can give you mine. Summary of economic projections given by
Mr. -- this is the first one, the summary of Mr. Erk's projected calculations. And as you recall,
Mr. Erk is one of our experts; and I assume he's going to try to address that. But that would
be falling in the realm of expert testimony. He's not been designated nor have we had the
opportunity under Bonds versus Roy to depose him or know what he's going to say on these
issues regarding expert testimony. That's the first exhibit. But that also ties into numerous
other exhibits that I expect they're going to try to use, because -- I haven't been told what
they're going to use them for; but, for example, performance capacities of U.S. Arenas, U.S.
Stadiums, rose bowl capacities, all of these which would be beyond the knowledge of an
ordinary person requires some kind of expert testimony for an expert to know this. Now,
they're going to say, "oh, this is just percipient knowledge," but it isn't percipient knowledge
because an expert can tell you what's seating capacity, what's the difference between what
Plaintiffs -- and it says Plaintiffs' claimed capacity, performance capacity, so what he would be
doing would be trying to rebut testimony given by Plaintiffs' expert. Now, they have two
experts in this case, neither one of them address these issues, and Mr. Erk was deposed
before their two economists. And one, Mr. Briggs, who's other issues, is coming tomorrow. So
that. Then we have Mr. Erk, another exhibit, 13129, which not only was from Mr. Erk, but it
also deals with post-death estate issues which the court has ruled are not admissible in this
trial. It's also expert testimony on -- you don't have that exhibit -- do you have that exhibit? So
I can see where this is going. We also have -- he's trying to qualify him as an expert, and I
can see where this is going. We also have exhibit number -- these schedules -- I mean, I
guess he can talk about the schedules. But we have exhibit number 4501, an email between
Mr. Phillips and a gentleman from Japan dealing with the stadiums in Japan which he's not on
Ms. Stebbins: I'm not sure that's meant to be in there.
Mr. Panish: Okay. Well, it was given to me. And then -- so there's a lot of these. I can see
where this is headed, and I think I know what they're going to try to do, since their experts
haven't addressed seating capacities at stadiums and other things, which is expert testimony.
And this guy has not been designated as an expert witness to testify on those issues, and
they're going to try to rebut Mr. Erk because their other experts didn't and don't have
experience in that area.
Ms. Stebbins: Your honor, real simple. We're not asking for an expert opinion from Mr.
Meglen. We're asking him fact questions that he knows in his capacity as a percipient
witness. The rule regarding experts, your honor, is that they cannot offer expert opinions
based on their expertise. There is no rule that says a lay witness cannot testify to facts which
the lay witness knows. In fact, the rule is, subject to section 801, the testimony of a witness
concerning a particular matter is inadmissible unless he has personal knowledge of the
matter; and that's the only requirement, that the witness have personal knowledge. Mr.
Meglen is not going to get up here and offer expert testimony, he is going to testify to facts
within his personal knowledge. So, for instance, your honor, those particular documents, he's
not going to be addressing Mr. Erk's contentions or raising opinions on them. What he's going
to testify to is the capacity of stadiums where he has personally been responsible for
promoting shows. That is a fact, it is not an expert opinion, it is something within his percipient
knowledge that he has knowledge of through his own personal experience, and it is relevant
and admissible in this case. There is no rule that an expert has -- that a lay witness cannot --
cannot -- cannot attack the factual foundations of an expert's testimony, especially, if you'll
recall, your honor, Mr. Erk came in here and said, "I'm basing all of this on AEG's numbers."
well, in fact, AEG's numbers don't match Mr. Erk's numbers; and a witness who has actually
promoted tours in these stadiums -- he's only going to talk about places where he has
personally been involved in promotion of tours. He's not going to offer any expert opinions.
He's not going to say, you know, "based on my experience in the industry, I conclude that Mr.
Erk is wrong." he's just going to testify to facts that are within his personal knowledge.
Judge: What -- why are we attaching this summary of projected economic damages?
Ms. Stebbins: Your honor, that's a Plaintiffs' exhibit. We're only dealing with a page of that
exhibit, which is the list -- we're dealing with a couple of pages. Some of them are the
stadiums. If you remember, Mr. Erk talked about the stadiums where he was going to have
Mr. Jackson perform. There are certain stadiums I'm going to ask -- the relevant pages are in
evidence, your honor; so I'm just going to put it up, say, your honor -- say, "Mr. Meglen, have
you performed at any of these stadiums, organized a tour at any of these stadiums, and do
you know something about the capacity of them?" there's actually ones where he has actually
been involved. That list of tours, he's personally promoted some of those tours, so I'm going
to ask him about the tours where he was personally the promoter of the tours that are on that
list. That's all I'm going to ask him about, your honor, places where he has personal percipient
knowledge. If at any point you think we're going beyond that, obviously, he can object and
deal with it at that time. But he does not have to be an expert to offer factual testimony within
his own personal knowledge and experience.
Mr. Panish: Your honor, they're back-dooring in expert testimony. It says Plaintiffs' claim,
Defendants. He's rebutting with expert testimony what Plaintiffs' expert testified.
Mr. Boyle: On the blue ones, your honor --
Ms. Stebbins: Your honor --
Mr. Panish: The blue ones -- excuse me. I didn't interrupt you. That's what he's trying to do.
Now, when we deposed him, he didn't talk about any of this; and, also, some of these emails,
he knew nothing about. So now we're going to need the backup and all this stuff to get into
this where they have a tour expert and they have two economists. They chose none of them
to address this, so now we haven't had an opportunity to get any of the backup, and we just
lay it on this -- this is an expert. "what can you set to show up for?" that's expert testimony.
That doesn't mean different people don't do it differently. In his opinion, that's what it is.
Because in the -- now, how do I cross-examine? I can now take off the internet and have --
he'll deny everything that I'm going to show him? How can I cross-examine the expert now
when this shows up at this section -- remember, they had Mr. Erk's testimony for months, and
now today for the first time, they show up with these exhibits. They've known this all along,
and now this witness is going to come in and testify, Mr. Meglen -- I don't have any way to
cross-examine him. I don't have the backup from AEG, I only have what Mr. Erk has done.
They haven't chose to do that with their experts, and so now I don't have any way to get the
information in to cross-examine this witness who shows up at the last minute. And if you look
at the exhibits, it says Plaintiffs' claim, and now he's rebutting it with his claim.
Ms. Stebbins: Your honor, we'll -- sorry. I thought you were done. We'll readily admit that he
is rebutting Mr. Erk. You don't have to be an expert to rebut expert testimony.
Judge: I'm overruling your objection. But I do have a concern about why are we using this
Ms. Stebbins: Only the pages that are pertinent, your honor. Literally I'm going to throw up
the pages that Mr. Erk got from Wikipedia; and as to the tours, for instance -- he talked about
where Mr. Jackson's tours fell on this continuum of tours. I'm going to ask Mr. Meglen about
some of those tours that he was personally involved in promoting. I will lay a foundation for all
of that and explain how it's relevant at the time. And I can basically lay it out now, but it's --
your honor, he's going to testify about tours that he promoted personally.
Judge: I understand that. But this is -- isn't this the "This Is It" tour?
Mr. Panish: No.
Ms. Stebbins: No, your honor.
Mr. Panish: That's our Plaintiffs' damages calculations.
Ms. Stebbins: That's Mr. Erk's damages calculations, your honor. And I'm not going to be
going through the allocations with the witness, I'm going to be going through some of the
factual foundations for Mr. Erk's testimony. For instance, Mr. Erk testifies that this stadium has
an 80,000-person capacity.
Judge: Right. That's what you're going to use this for, right?
Ms. Stebbins: Exactly. "you've personally promoted a show. Could you put 80,000 people in
it? How many people did you fit into that particular stadium? What were the reasons for that?"
I will also be using another page in there, your honor, which is the list --
Judge: I don't know how that -- how that ties into this. That sounds like an argument to make
at the end of the case.
Ms. Stebbins: Your honor, I can explain. And it's literally just one page that I'm using. Let me
try to pull it.
Mr. Panish: Your honor, how do I cross-examine?
Mr. Putnam: Your honor, he went up on Wikipedia, says, "here are all the facts," and
represented that these are facts on which he was basing his opinion. So what we're doing is
someone who actually worked on several of those --
Judge: I'm agreeing with you. I just want to know why it is that we're --
Ms. Stebbins: It's a specific page, your honor, exhibit -- it's page 12128, dash -- not 5,
actually, it's the next one. Sorry.
Mr. Panish: Your honor, I want the backup for this to be able to cross. This is quasi expert
testimony. I'm unduly prejudiced to cross-examine this witness, and I would like all the backup
from him that supports this. He can just say -- how do I cross-examine the witness on that?
They deposed Mr. Erk on all these issues and found out what his basis was. I don't have any
of the backup to cross-examine this witness. So if he's going to be allowed, I want him to
bring down the backup that I can have to review and effectively cross-examine the witness
because it is quasi expert testimony. Those exhibits are rebutting Plaintiffs' expert testimony
and Plaintiffs' claim -- I've only seen it for a minute; but what it says on there, how do I cross-
examine effectively this witness that shows up today for the first time with these exhibits?
They've had Mr. Erk's testimony for months, they've never had any of these exhibits on the
exhibit list, I've never seen them before today. How do I cross-examine this witness? That's
the purpose of expert designation and disclosure.
Judge: What page of this are you using?
Ms. Stebbins: Sorry. The page I'm using is 9 and 10, the highest grossing tours of all time
chart from Wikipedia. I'm basically using it as a demonstrative for the witness, your honor, to
ask him which of these tours he's been involved in. I'm not using the calculations --
Judge: He's involved in --
Ms. Stebbins: He's been the promoter for about 13 of these.
Judge: The primary --
Ms. Stebbins: The primary promoter. We'll go through that, your honor.
Ms. Stebbins: The other issues, your honor, just for the record, Plaintiffs deposed every
single AEG Live witness before they designated any experts. They never asked them
anything about the touring industry, anything about touring capacity. Instead, they got a guy
who goes on Wikipedia and looks thing up. The witnesses are allowed to offer facts that
counter the foundational facts of their expert.
Mr. Panish: Your honor, we asked this witness about this specific email, and he knew
nothing about it. Had never read it, and knew nothing about it, and they're trying to use it with
Judge: What's the situation --
Mr. Boyle: Your honor, this is exhibit 31, which is 31, dash, 1, through 31, dash, 7. This was
the AEG E-mail that attached their budget for a world tour for Mr. Jackson where they had all
these different cities. Mr. Meglen was asked specifically about it, and he said he knew nothing
Mr. Panish: And "I don't recall it, it doesn't refresh my recollection, I wasn't involved at that
time, I don't know what Mr. Gongaware was referring to." I showed him the next page, doesn't
refresh his recollection. None of that. Now they're going to come in and try to go to the world
tour projections with this witness who testified he knew nothing about it.
Ms. Stebbins: I'm not, your honor, actually. I'm only going to ask the witness basically what
he was asked at his deposition, it was a little bit more. I believe I'll lay a foundation for all of it.
If they believe it's inconsistent with his deposition, they're welcome to cross-examine on that
basis; but he is on the email and it's in evidence.
Mr. Panish: Not on all of it. Not on part of it.
Ms. Stebbins: I will not be asking him about the portions he's not on.
Mr. Panish: Here we go. He's going to give this expert-type testimony, and they say we
asked him specifically this information in the deposition. He knew nothing about it and wasn't
Judge: So impeachment, is what it comes down to. You have impeachment.
Mr. Panish: How do I effectively cross-examine a witness --
Judge: I think you know. I think you know. All right. I'm overruling the objection.
Ms. Stebbins: May I have more than three minutes to run to the lady's room?
Judge: Yes, you may.
(The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of the jurors):
Judge: Katherine Jackson versus AEG Live. We have appearances of a couple of counsel
who want to make their formal appearances.
Ms. Stebbins: Jessica Stebbins Bina for the defense.
Mr. Mrkonic: And Matthew Mrkonic for defense.
Judge: Thank you. Let's continue.
Ms. Stebbins: Mr. Meglen, I think where we left off, I was about to go back in time to when
you were working for -- I believe it was for pace when you worked with Mr. Jackson in
promoting a portion of the "History" tour.
The witness: Yes, ma'am.
Ms. Stebbins: So start at the beginning.
Q. Before "This Is It," had you ever worked with Michael Jackson?
A. Once, yes.
Q. In what capacity?
A. As a consultant to a firm in Japan who wished to promote Michael Jackson in Fukuoka,
Q. And what was the venue, if you recall, in Fukuoka?
A. It's called the Fukuoka dome or twin dome, something. There was some funny names. But
basically it's the -- the small domed baseball stadium that the daiei hawks play in.
Q. And how many shows did you promote for Mr. Jackson there?
A. Two shows.
Q. And when were those shows?
A. They would have been in the first year of pace touring. Well, I know they were over
Christmas. They were the 24th and the 26th of December, 1997.
Q. If I said 1996, would that sound possible for you?
Q. So either 1996 or --
A. It was '6 or '7, one of those, yes.
Q. And you remember they were the day before Christmas and the day after Christmas?
A. Well, I remember that my wife came with me and we spent Christmas day in Fukuoka,
Japan, watching e.R. Reruns all day in our room.
Q. Now, were you involved -- what did you do for the shows in Fukuoka?
A. Well, we were not financially at risk. We were hired by a Japanese firm who really had no
experience on how to put a concert on, so we were hired and paid a fee to help them contract
the show for Michael, and to execute the show, to promote it.
Q. And you were working for pace touring at the time?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. Now, we've heard testimony in this case that Mr. Jackson performed some performances
at the tokyo dome during the "History" tour, as well. Is that different from the Fukuoka dome?
A. Yes, different cities.
Q. And were you involved in promoting any other portion of Mr. Jackson's "History" tour?
A. No, I was not.
Q. So even the other Japanese legs, those were somebody else?
Q. Now, turning to the Fukuoka shows themselves, did you watch the shows?
A. Yes, I went -- I watched both shows.
Q. How were they?
A. They were great.
Q. Did you meet Mr. Jackson himself in connection with these tours?
A. I met Michael in -- the tour promoter was a guy by the name of Marcel Avram. And I was in
Marcel's hotel room when Michael came in, he introduced us, and that was it.
Q. Did you have any substantive conversations with Mr. Jackson at that point?
Q. Now, I read on Wikipedia that the two shows at the Fukuoka dome were sell-outs.
A. That's far from true.
Q. I was going to ask, is that right?
A. They each sold about half a house.
Q. Half a house. Does that mean after -- half the seats that were for sale, or --
Q. Are you sure you're right about that? You're sure you've got a clear memory?
A. I'm absolutely positive because we only wanted to get one show; and marcel told me in
order for Michael to come there, that they would have to guarantee him two shows.
Mr. Panish: I move to strike. It's all hearsay
what Mr. Avram said.
Judge: Okay. Sustained as to what Avram said.
Mr. Panish: Strike?
Judge: Strike what Avram said.
Ms. Stebbins: Don't tell me what other people said, just tell me how you're sure that -- did
you see whether or not the shows were full?
A. We initially made an offer for one show which was rejected. Upon asking what we needed
to get it done, we were told that he would need to have --
Mr. Panish: It's hearsay again.
Ms. Stebbins: Your honor, it's not offered for the truth but to explain the witness's actions in
offering two shows.
Mr. Panish: No. It goes back to this whole understanding issue again.
Judge: Overruled. You may answer.
The witness: In the process of negotiating the deals, we were informed that we would have
to make a two-show guarantee.
Q. And then you said you actually attended the shows; is that right?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Could you see whether or not the houses were full?
A. We curtained off a lot of the empty seats. That's -- we call that -- we can either dress the
house by giving tickets away and papering, what we commonly call papering the house,
Or you can take pipe and drape and curtains and things like that and cover the empty seats
so they're not seen.
Q. So let me understand it right. If a show doesn't sell like a promoter hopes it will, you're
saying you can do one of two things, you can hide the empty seats or give the extra seats
Q. And which one happened in Fukuoka?
A. We pretty much hid the empty seats.
Q. But in any event, Wikipedia is not right about the shows selling out?
A. No. I don't use Wikipedia as a source of my business.
Q. Now --
Mr. Panish: Move to strike, it's nonresponsive. The question is, is it accurate or not. Whether
he uses it as a source or not is not the question.
Q. Now, when you saw Mr. Jackson on "History," and I know it was just for a moment, did you
see any signs that he was under the influence of drugs or alcohol?
Q. Do you know whether or not Mr. Jackson had a doctor traveling with him?
Mr. Panish: No foundation.
Q. You just -- you don't know one way or the other?
A. I don't know, no.
Q. Other than working on those two shows in Japan on "History," did you work with Mr.
Jackson again before the "This Is It" tour?
A. On -- I worked with Michael Jackson on the Fukuoka, Japan, shows; and then met with
Michael Jackson later in 2007 in a meeting with his representative Peter Lopez at that time.
Q. And that's what I was going to turn to. Now, we've heard some testimony about those
2007 meetings, but I want to ask you a few things about them. At some point after AEG Live
was formed and running as a company, and you and Mr. Gongaware were Co-CEO's of
Concerts West division, did you meet with Mr. Jackson to discuss possibilities for Mr. Jackson
A. Yes, we did.
Q. When was that?
A. That would have been in, I think, 2007. Again, I'm not -- we met at the wynn hotel in Las
Vegas, was the very first meeting.
Q. And you just mentioned Mr. Peter Lopez. Who was Mr. Lopez at that time?
A. Peter Lopez was Michael's attorney.
Q. And did you know Mr. Lopez?
A. Yes, very well.
Q. And was he someone that had negotiated a lot of concert tour agreements?
A. We did the Bocelli concert with Peter Lopez. That was the first concert Peter was andrea's
attorney, and so the -- really the -- the first true tour that we did prior to AEG, that Paul and I
did at Concerts West, we did with Peter Lopez, and it was the Andrea Bocelli tour.
Mr. Panish: I object move to strike as nonresponsive. The question is was he someone that
negotiated a lot of tour agreements. That was the question.
Ms. Stebbins: Do you know whether he --
Judge: The answer is stricken.
Ms. Stebbins: Do you know whether he negotiated other tour agreements besides the one
that you just cited?
Mr. Panish: Objection; foundation.
Ms. Stebbins: I'm asking whether he knows, your honor.
Judge: Overruled. You may answer.
The witness: Peter managed Glenn Frey of the Eagles and was involved in negotiating their
Q. And since it was just stricken, I have to ask you again, did you ever personally negotiate
with Mr. Lopez regarding a concert deal prior to this time?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And what was that?
A. The Andrea Bocelli tour.
Q. And that, I think you said, was the first -- one of the first tours that you did as Concerts
Q. In your experience, was Mr. Lopez skilled at his job?
A. Pardon me?
Q. In your experience, was Mr. Lopez skilled at his job?
A. Yes, very.
Q. Now, you said Mr. Lopez called and asked you about this meeting. Did he tell you in
advance what the meeting was going to be about?
A. Peter, when he called regarding going to meet with Michael in Las Vegas, it was about
letting him know what AEG Was about.
Q. So you understood it was a time for you to come and make a presentation to Mr. Jackson
about AEG Live?
Q. Did he tell you at that point that Mr. Jackson wanted to work live, or was it more open-
A. No. It was more open-ended.
Q. And did you eventually -- you eventually wound up meeting with Mr. Jackson?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. And you said you thought it was early 2007 at the Wynn hotel in Las Vegas?
Q. Who was at that meeting that you can recall?
A. It was myself and Paul Gongaware, Peter Lopez, a lady named Raymone Bain, and she
had another lady that worked with her, I cannot remember her name.
Q. And did you have an understanding as to Raymone Bain's role at this time?
A. She introduced herself as Michael's manager.
Q. And she did that with Mr. Jackson present?
Q. So did you have any reason to doubt that was her role?
Q. And, you know, at this point in time -- well, I guess tell me about the meeting. What
A. Paul and I arrived at the Wynn hotel. We called Peter, he came down and met us and then
took us upstairs to the room.
Q. Did Mr. Jackson recognize you when he saw you?
A. No; he recognized Mr. Gongaware.
Q. And how do you know Mr. Jackson recognized Mr. Gongaware?
A. When we walked in the door with Peter, Michael came out of the bedroom and saw Paul
and said, "Paul Gongaware. Paul Gongaware. Whenever I saw Paul Gongaware, I knew
everything was going to be okay."
Q. And --
A. And then he said, "How is Brigitte?" which was Paul's girlfriend at the time.
Q. So how did you go about trying to convince Mr. Jackson to do -- do a deal with AEG Live?
A. I brought three what we call sizzle reels on the company with me, along with kind of our
Q. And was the goal of this to convince Michael Jackson to hire
A. .E.G. Live to produce a concert for him?
A. Well, it was to show Michael the breadth of AEG And, you know, some of the cool projects
that we were involved in and what we did so that, you know, he would -- if he did work, that,
you know, we hopefully would be the company he'd work with, or he'd think about us.
Q. So is that a yes, you were trying to get him to pick you?
Q. And just very briefly, you said "sizzle reels." what's a sizzle reel?
A. A sizzle reel is a three- to five-minute D.V.D. That highlights the different projects that the
company has going on.
Q. And do you remember how Mr. Jackson reacted to the sizzle reels at the time?
A. Yes, very much.
Q. And how was that?
A. He was very excited.
Q. Now, one thing I meant to ask you at the beginning, how did Mr. Jackson look to you when
you saw him?
A. He looked great. He was full of energy, he seemed taller to me, a firm handshake, and just
-- he was there, he was -- he was very, very excited about everything.
Q. And how long was this first meeting?
A. Maybe two hours, hour and a half to two hours.
Q. Did Mr. Jackson seem in any way under the influence of anything, drugs or alcohol?
Q. No signs of that?
Q. Now, did you bring anything with you to the meeting besides the sizzle reels?
A. A company brochure.
Q. And what was the company brochure?
A. It captures all of the different entities of AEG, whether it be sports, venues, the Vegas
properties. At that time, we had an exhibition business, a lot of our different businesses, and it
was to show Michael those.
Q. When you said AEG At that point, are you talking about the parent company of AEG Live,
AEG Corporate, for lack of a better word?
A. Well, there were three sizzle reels. They were the AEG Live sizzle reel, they were the AEG
corporate sizzle reel, and the third one was the Walden film sizzle reel, which is a sister
Q. And by "sister company," you mean not a part of AEG Live, but an affiliate of it?
A. Not a part of AEG, but a company owned by the Anschutz Corporation.
Q. And what, if you recall, was discussed at the meeting? You said you showed about three
5-minute movies. What did you do for the rest of the time?
A. The first sizzle reel was the AEG Live sizzle reel, probably highlighted Celine Dion in Las
Vegas, highlighted the prince musicology tour, the super bowl and the -- and the King Tut
exhibition. Michael got very excited about the King Tut exhibition when we showed him the
AEG Live reel.
Q. What was King Tut?
A. King Tut was an exhibit of King Tut and other artifacts from that period in Egypt that we
would tour to different museums around the world.
Q. Did that show at LACMA?
A. We opened that tour at LACMA, the King Tut tour opened at LACMA,
went to Florida, went to Chicago, Philly, and then went international, I think London and then
Q. Did you talk at this meeting about the idea of Mr. Jackson doing a concert series in
London or anywhere else?
A. After we showed the first sizzle reel, I think I asked him the question if he would be
interested in doing something along the lines of what Celine was doing, to which he said no,
he didn't want to do that right now. He went on about that he had written a -- was -- had
written a -- a miniseries with another lady on -- about King Tut. King tut was a big -- I guess a
favorite subject of his.
Q. So when you say what Celine Dion was doing, do you mean the --
A. The residency at Caesars Palace.
Q. So you asked Mr. Jackson whether he would want to do a Vegas-style residency?
A. Yeah. I said, "would you be interested in doing something like that?" and his answer was
no, he wasn't ready to do something like that.
Ms. Stebbins: Your honor, are we going to 4:00 or 4:15?
The clerk: I thought we said 4:00.
Mr. Boyle: We're not ready to argue that today.
The clerk: So then it would be 4:15.
Ms. Stebbins: Okay. Just -- all right.
Q. So did you talk about the 02 at all at this meeting?
A. In the second sizzle reel, which is the
AEG Live corporate sizzle reel, you see quite a bit about the 02, and actually quite a bit about
David Beckham and the -- and the L.A. Galaxy.
Q. But did you discuss any projects? Like, "Mr. Jackson, do you want to come do a residency
at the 02?" or anything like that?
A. No, I don't believe at that time we did, no.
Q. Do you remember any specific projects being discussed besides a King Tut miniseries
that Mr. Jackson wanted to work on and a Vegas residency that Mr. Jackson wasn't interested
A. It wasn't a meeting to talk about, necessarily, specific projects. It was more of a meeting
showing Michael who we were as a company.
Q. And you think you said it lasted a couple of hours?
Q. Did you have a follow-up meeting after that first meeting with Mr. Jackson?
A. Yes, our second meeting -- a month later, maybe, somewhere in that range, at Turnberry,
which is a condo development in Las Vegas, and so we met there.
Q. And how did the second meeting come about?
A. I believe Peter arranged the second meeting, or called us, asked us to go to the second
meeting. Could have been Raymone. I don't remember. But we were asked if we would come
and meet with Michael again.
Q. And what, if you recall, was the purpose of this meeting?
A. The majority of that meeting was for the lady who had co-written the King Tut miniseries to
take us through that project.
Q. And who was there at the meeting?
A. Myself, Paul Gongaware, Randy Phillips came to that meeting, John nelson, who runs the
day to day in our Vegas operation, a man named Chris Demoulin who worked for Walden
media, and then a number of people -- Michael's side had grown from the first meeting.
Q. And was -- were Mr. Lopez and Ms. Bain still there?
A. Yes, they were both still there.
Q. And you said Chris Demoulin from Walden media. I think you said Walden media was a
Q. And so were they brought to discuss this sort of film aspect of this miniseries?
A. Yes, because they were probably -- we did not really have any television development
organization within AEG The closest thing would have been our film guys.
Q. Were any other projects discussed at this meeting?
Q. And do you remember whether, after this meeting, Walden or anybody else was interested
in pursuing the King Tut miniseries further?
A. No. The -- the King Tut miniseries really -- it didn't work for us. It's not really what we did.
We weren't making a judgment on the value of the project to that, it was just not something
that we did and, you know, it wasn't core to us.
Q. After those first two meetings, did you ever have a third meeting with Mr. Jackson?
A. Yes. Well, actually, after that meeting, Michael came that night to see prince. We were at
that time producing a -- I guess you would call it a residency for prince at the rio hotel. It was
called 3121. And Michael wanted to come over and see it, so Michael came over that night to
watch the prince show.
Q. Did you talk business at all with him at that meeting -- I mean at that prince show?
A. No. I mean, Michael showed up, I took him downstairs, there were -- there was kind of a
hospitality room downstairs. I -- Michael actually showed up early. I was surprised. And prince
had two backgrounds singers. They were these two ladies who were Australian and were
twins. And they said they had met Michael before, so I took him in and kind of let them all
Q. And so no business discussions there?
Q. All right. That's -- and then Mr.
Jackson, did he attend the prince concert?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Okay. And then did you have another meeting with Mr. Jackson after that?
A. Yes. We had another meeting in New York City with Michael after that.
Q. And do you remember when that was?
A. That was a few months later, quite a few months later, I think; and that meeting was at the
regency hotel in New York.
Q. And do you remember what that meeting was about at all?
A. That one, there were more -- there were attorneys and accountants there for Michael. You
know, I think at that time Raymone Bain was more pushing for some all-encompassing deal
that didn't really have anything attached to it. It was just --
Q. What do you mean?
A. "Let's do a big deal," but we didn't know what it was for. In the -- in the first meeting,
Michael got excited about the fact that we had done the David Beckham deal, that AEG Had
done the David Beckham deal, and said a number of times, "Why don't you guys do a David
Beckham deal with me?"
Q. Did you have an understanding as to what he meant by that?
A. Well, I kind of understood what, you know -- there was nothing specific attached to it.
That's why it was difficult. You know, when something like that happens, you go, "To do what?
I want to do a deal, but to do what?"
Q. And was there ever a point where you wanted -- or were willing as a company to give Mr.
Jackson a large amount of money without a clear idea of what he was going to be doing?
A. No, no.
Q. After these first three meetings, did you have any more discussions with Mr. Jackson
A. No. It pretty much went pretty quiet from there. You know, for quite some time, we -- it kind
of just kind of -- deals have a way of doing that at times. You can work on things; if there isn't
a deal to be made or something to be made, they just kind of go away.
Q. And so this just kind of went away?
A. Yeah, this one just kind of went away.
Q. During all of these three meetings in 2007, was there ever a time at any of those meetings
that you thought Mr. Jackson looked like he might be under the influence of drugs or alcohol?
Q. Was there ever a time he seemed anything other than alert?
A. No. He seemed -- he had a lot of energy.
Q. Did he seem happy? Unhappy?
A. Very happy.
Q. But no deal was done at the time?
A. Pardon me?
Q. No deal was done at the time?
A. No, no.
Q. And at some point down the line, do you know whether Mr. Jackson came into contact
with AEG Live again?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. When was that?
Mr. Panish: Objection; foundation.
Ms. Stebbins: If you know.
The witness: At least a good year later.
Q. And were you involved in that sort of second set of -- of meetings, for lack of a better
A. No, not really. It was coming in through -- through a different person in the company.
Mr. Panish: Well, again, your honor, objection on foundation.
Q. I'm just trying to establish you were not involved with further meetings with Mr. Jackson?
A. No, no. The further meetings, I was not involved.
Q. When was the next time that you saw Mr. Jackson?
A. I saw Michael at rehearsals at the forum one day when I went down -- one evening when I
went down to the forum.
Q. So would that have been in the June 2009 --
A. Roughly, yes.
Q. So from sometime in 2007 to the summer of 2009, you didn't see Mr. Jackson?
Ms. Stebbins: Your honor, we're about to go into a new area. I can start it, but we might just
want to stop.
Judge: Just start it, keep going.
Ms. Stebbins: Okay. Now, you talked earlier about the idea of you and Mr. Gongaware not
exactly doing the same kind of work for the company.
Q. And with Michael Jackson's "This Is It," you both attended the original meetings in Las
Q. Did there come a time when one of you became responsible for the Michael Jackson
A. Almost immediately. Paul and I knew it would be Paul to take the lead on that because he
had the History with Michael.
Q. Did you understand what Mr. Jackson -- what Mr. Jackson and Mr. Gongaware's History
was, or just know that they worked together before?
A. Paul had done previous tours for Michael. I generally knew who he worked for and, you
know, what he was responsible for.
Q. Now, did there come a time where AEG Live entered into an agreement with Mr. Jackson?
Q. And even though you hadn't been involved in the negotiations, did you have to approve
Q. So you had to approve the agreement that was ultimately entered into?
Q. And did you review the offer and the terms that AEG Live made to Mr. Jackson before
those were made?
Q. Did you actually review the agreement in all its detail, or did you review a summary of it?
A. No. I probably reviewed
a summary of it or was talked through the deal with, probably, Kathy Jorrie.
Q. And don't tell me what you talked through with your lawyer, but were you aware of the
basic deal terms?
A. Yes, absolutely.
Q. And can you explain to me the basics of how Mr. Jackson was going to be compensated
under the tour agreement?
A. Yes. The tour agreement called -- there were basically two parts. There was the promoter
part of the deal, to which Michael would receive 90 percent of the net profits; and then there
was the producer element of the deal, where AEG Would receive 5 percent of the artist's net
on the producer's side.
Q. When you say "net profits" and "artist net," are those the same things or different things?
A. No. They're different.
Q. So tell me what you mean by net profits.
A. Okay. Net profits are from the promotion side, are determined by the gross revenue for the
show less the actual show expenses, what we call local show expenses. So hall rental,
advertising, local staffing, ushers, ticket takers, catering, security, things that are done on
really the local basis, not the production of the actual show itself.
Q. So when you say "net profits," you don't mean what the artist takes home at the end of the
A. No, no. The -- the -- the show net is classically the gross revenue left to be divided
between the artist and the promoter, of which
The artist then pays his touring expenses out of.
Q. So in this instance, the show net would be to the gross revenues minus what you spent to
promote the show at the venue, and then that show net, if I have it right, would be split 90/10?
A. Yes, ma'am.
Q. And then you said there was an artist net?
A. The artist net then is you take the -- take the share that the artist receives from the show
and then the artist then has to pay all of his expenses out of that; trucks, buses, crew,
musicians, all of his staffing on the road, all of the things that the artist clasically pays for.
Q. And then what was left after that, that's where AEG Live's producer fee would be
Q. So in this instance, the artist -- the expenses of production, where do they fall?
A. On the artist's side.
Ms. Stebbins: Is that good, your honor?
Judge: Yes. Okay. Tomorrow, return at 9:45.
(The following proceedings were held in open court, outside the presence of the
Judge: Okay. I think there were a couple of things you wanted to talk about. Shall I have the
witness step out? Step down, come back at 9:45. And I need you to step out of the courtroom.
The witness: Thank you, your honor.
Judge: Who was raising an issue? I thought somebody wanted to talk to me.
Mr. Panish: The only thing is tomorrow -- there's some rulings that you made on the depos.
We didn't bring our depos, but we would like to talk about those.
Mr. Boyle: I'm going to email with Ms. Cahan, we might be able to work it out. It would be a
Mr. Putnam: We asked so we can cut it in time.
Mr. Boyle: I think we'll be okay.
Ms. Stebbins: And the only other outstanding issue I was worried about is Ms. Rwaramba,
and I guess you'll need to talk to Ms. Chang.
Mr. Panish: This is what I know. I hate to say it. That Ms. Chang is not -- they have not -- she
spoke to the lawyer, and the lawyer doesn't know where she is. That's all I know.
Ms. Stebbins: So I imagine we'll hear something further.
Ms. Cahan: Your honor, I mentioned this to Ms. Raya earlier today. We filed additional
designations for Dr. Kazakhi, who is the one we were hoping to file. It was combined; and
that's one we would like to put in this week, as well. It's not a particularly long deposition. I
know your honor is busy.
Judge: I'll get to it. I did two depos.
Mr. Putnam: We're going to keep rolling them like that and they'll be short like that, your
Judge: So you didn't want to discuss the questions on the designations?
Mr. Panish: They're going to see if they can work it out. If not, we can do it tomorrow.
Mr. Boyle: We can get it teed up so you have one question to answer, hopefully.
Judge: All right. 9:45.
(Court adjourned to Tuesday, July 23, 2013)
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