Jackson V AEG Live August 8
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Kenneth Ortega (Director on TII tour)
The Judge: Before we start with the witnesses, I was going to ask -- and not because the jurors have
asked, but I want to advise them as to a time estimate. So when do you think the case will be submitted
to them? Because they may be thinking about it, and they may be hesitant to ask, so I figured I'd ask
you, so --
Mr. Putnam. We're hoping to be done by the beginning of September, your honor.
The Judge: Beginning of September?
Ms. Bina. It gets tricky once we move into September. As you recall, there are about two court days a
week. September could jump away very quickly, but we're trying very hard to stay on schedule.
Mr. Panish. Actually, I looked at the calendar, and after tomorrow, there are 9 1/2 days in august of
court. And then the first week of September there are, according to the last revision of the calendar,
there are two days, so that would be 11 1/2 days. And then the next week, there are also two days. So as
of September 12th, excluding the next two days, according to the calendar, that would leave
approximately 13.5 days. So that's September 12th. And then --
The Judge: As of September 12th, there's 13.5 courts days?
Mr. Panish. Starting with Monday. We still have all day today and all day tomorrow.
Mr. Boyle. So 15.5.
The Judge: That doesn't sound like much.
Mr. Putnam. It's not, and that's the problem.
Mr. Panish. That's kind of what's been going on. But unless I missed adding it up, that's the way I see
it. So are they saying like --
Ms. Bina. We're saying we're trying to finish it one of those two weeks of September, so --
Mr. Panish. To the 13th?
Ms. Bina. You know, frankly, some of the examinations have gone a little longer than we hoped. We're
trying to condense where we can.
Mr. Panish. So should I have rebuttal witnesses ready for the 16th?
Ms. Bina. Probably makes sense to revisit that when we're closer to the date.
Mr. Panish. Well, just so I can give them an idea.
Ms. Bina. That's a good idea for right now.
The Judge: So you said rebuttal, the 16th?
Mr. Panish. Well, I'm just assuming mid-September. So that's the 16th and 17th. That week there's only
2 1/2 days.
Ms. Bina. The problem is, most of September we only have two days a week.
The Judge: September is hard.
Mr. Panish. We have 2 1/2, and 3 the next week, so --
Ms. Bina. It's dramatically shortened, the weeks in any event, your honor, where we have 2 1/2, 3 days.
The Judge: Kids go back to school; people come back from vacation.
Ms. Bina. The fear is, once we hit September, the court days will pass rather quickly. So that's why
we're trying to get as much done in august.
Mr. Panish. So mid September.
The Judge: So what you're saying is, if there is a rebuttal, it will likely commence on the 16th? Is that
kind of what we're hearing?
Mr. Panish. Well, it's up to them. I just need to know when I need to be ready. I don't know when
they'll finish. They say mid September. I mean, I don't know. First, initially, they thought august, and I
thought maybe mid September just because the way things are going. And seems that they seem to
think, at least as of today, mid September. But, you know, that's obviously a moving target.
Ms. Bina. Right.
The Judge: Just want to give them a target date. I'm sure they're wondering.
Mr. Panish. So I would say -- and the question is when will it be submitted to the jury? So we have to
do instructions, verdict forms --
Ms. Bina. Sure rebuttal.
Mr. Panish. -- argument of counsel. I would throw that back to them. They know that better than I
Ms. Bina. We don't know how long rebuttal is.
Mr. Panish. Well, right now we have four witnesses, so it depends. They're short, obviously. I mean, I
would say -- I don't know. If they finished on the 12th --
The Judge: If defense finished on the 12th --
Mr. Panish. Yeah. Oh, actually, I take that back, because my calendar says that the 19th and 20th,
actually, it's been crossed off. So there's actually 4 1/2 days that week. I assume the 19th and 20th on
my thing now have been crossed off.
Ms. Bina. We got those days back and two days off the next week instead.
Mr. Panish. So those are in. So we have a full week -- you know, I don't know how to --
The Judge: All right. I'll tell them through September, then.
Mr. Boyle. Okay. Might be able to approximate mid September.
Mr. Panish. Mid to late September. How about that?
Ms. Bina. Your honor, we really are trying to keep things as narrow as possible.
The Judge: I know. I'm not hurrying anybody. I'm not blaming anybody. I just want them to know. I
just want them to know that I'm cognizant. They may be wondering. Nobody's said anything to them,
and they might be hesitant to say it because they don't want to appear as though they're trying to push
anybody or be critical of anybody. And so they might be reserved in that regard, so I'm taking it upon
myself to find out when they can expect the case to be submitted to them. So that's --
Mr. Boyle. Do you remember what we told them the last time they asked?
Mr. Panish. Mid September.
Mr. Boyle. Okay.
Ms. Bina. I think that's what your honor told them, too.
The Judge: Okay. And the other thing before we bring them in, there are outstanding motions, and I
have given tentatives to you. Have you had a chance to look at them and think about whether you want
to argue them? Submit on them? Withdraw them? I don't know.
Mr. Panish. So we have the subpoena motion --
Mr. Boyle. We're going to sit on the ones -- we're going to submit on your honor's tentatives.
The Judge: The subpoena motion and then there's the Marcus motion.
Ms. Bina. Right. And, your honor, I think the plan on the Marcus motion is largely to submit on the
tentative. We're working to see whether there's an edited version of the deposition that can be used. I
think that they're planning on reaching out to plaintiffs' counsel on that, so --
The Judge: Okay.
Ms. Bina. -- there might be some limited argument on the scope of your honor's order was, depending
on whether we can agree or not. But that's all we would address, and if they're -- on the Ribera motion,
we would submit on that as well.
The Judge: Well, the thing on the Ribera motion is that you should talk to each other, come up with a
date by which --
Mr. Boyle. I think that's already happening. I think Ms. Strong is talking to Ms. Ribera.
The Judge: Just let me know, because --
Ms. Bina. We e-mailed yesterday asking whether they are going to stand on ribera, and it sounds like
Mr. Boyle. Yeah. I think Ms. Ribera is going to produce stuff. And if everything's okay, we should be
okay. And if there's an issue whether the production is enough, then maybe we'll have an issue.
Ms. Bina. Right. And similarly, on Marcus, not -- we're not planning to bite on the whole tentative at
this point, but there may be some questions as to scope.
The Judge: Kind of like designations, if things come up, then we'll talk about it.
Ms. Bina. Exactly, your honor. And I know they're working on that at the moment with that goal.
Mr. Boyle. Our position on that is we agree with the court's first, not the alternative rulings. But we'll
Ms. Bina. It makes sense to me to confer first, I think.
The Judge: Which brings up the designations on Slavit. You were right. It went really quickly, but I
did move on to the second one, which was Gordon.
Ms. Bina. Gordon or Adams, your honor. Either one.
Mr. Panish. But I think we're okay for this week, because Jorrie should be the morning on Friday, and
at least two hours plus of ruled-on videos and Slavit.
Ms. Bina. And Mr. Boyle just suggested to me that he thinks it's a good idea to see if we can agree on
Slavit. If not, a very short argument on it tomorrow, and then, you know, obviously getting further
designations done is helpful, but I think for tomorrow we're good already.
The Judge: All right. I'm just trying to keep up with you, and you keep up with me.
Ms. Bina. I appreciate that.
The Judge: I don't want you to say, "gee, we don't have any witnesses because, judge, you didn't do
what you said you were going to do."
Mr. Panish. And then just since we're talking about scheduling, and I know Mr. Putnam -- whatever
happens today is going to happen. If Mr. Ortega doesn't finish cross and redirect, I know he's available
next Wednesday, Thursday or Friday. So one of those days -- I assume Wednesday would be the
soonest. If he doesn't finish, he should come back.
Ms. Bina. And, again, your honor, we're still working on the scheduling for some other witnesses, but
we are planning on trying to finish Mr. Ortega today, at least on plaintiffs' case, and bring him back at
Mr. Panish. If he doesn't finish as to our case, I would ask that he come back on Wednesday. That
works with his schedule. So finish him, and they can bring him back when they need to.
The Judge: We can talk about that.
Mr. Panish. But I know we all know he can't come back tomorrow.
The Judge: Okay. Bring the jury in.
(the jury entered the courtroom at 10:11 a.m.)
The Judge: Before we begin, I want to get through a couple of housekeeping issues with you. One,
there are technical issues with the camera. We have a live feed in a limited part of the courthouse on the
trial, and so there will be tech people running around because there's some issue with the feed. So if
you see people running around, it's because they're trying to fix this issue, and I've allowed them to do
that. But I want to let you know that that's why they're there. The other thing is that I've come up with a
new estimate concerning the trial. You're probably wondering, "gee, judge, you told us the trial was
going to end the end of August, but it looks like we're still going." I -- my estimate has now changed. I
think that we'll probably -- the case will be submitted to you toward the end of September. Now, I know
I told you the end of August. That's another month. You can write me a note if that presents a problem
for you. You know, maybe we can deal with that. I know, juror no. 7, you talked about, "gee, August is
kind of my drop-dead date." write me a note if it presents an issue; if there are certain dates you need to
revise in terms of "I need time off" or whatever. Let me know. It is what it is; okay? Okay. We'll do our
best. And the problem, too, is that when you're talking about the end of August and September, you're
talking about people coming back from vacations, kids going back to school, and there are fewer trial
dates available. September comes, kids come back to school, you're going to need days off; attorneys
need days off. Just things like that happen. So we've been good to each other; let's try to continue being
good to each other. Okay. And, lastly, we have to interrupt the testimony of Ms. Jorrie to bring back Mr.
Ortega. If you remember, we kind of cut his testimony short and said we'd bring him back. Well, he's
back. And I believe it's still plaintiffs' case, but Mr. Putnam was on cross when we let him go.
Mr. Panish. That's correct.
The Judge: So, again, we accommodate the witnesses so they can do what they need to do, bring them
back when it's convenient, and that's to keep the trial going. And so we're going to do that now. We're
going to call Mr. Ortega back. Mr. Ortega, you can retake the witness stand. Kenny Ortega, recalled as
a witness by the plaintiffs, was previously sworn and testified as follows:
The Judge: And you don't need to be re-sworn as long as you recall you are still under oath.
The witness: yes, ma'am.
The Judge: You remember that? Okay. Thank you.
The witness: thank you, your honor.
The Judge: Thank you. You may be seated. Thank you. And I think we had 5 or 10 minutes of cross
before, so you've got a whole lot left; right?
Mr. Putnam. I have a fair amount left.
Cross-examination (resumed) by Mr. Putnam:
Q. I apologize, Mr. Ortega. I'd like to thank you for coming back. Thank you.
A. Thank you.
Q. Like a lot of people right now, I'm suffering from a cold. So if you can't hear me, let me know and
I'll try to talk louder; okay?
A. And I'm on the other end of it, so --
Q. I may need to use it.
A. All right.
Q. So one of the things Mr. Panish asked you about when you were here a couple of weeks ago was
your contract. Do you remember being shown that contract and being asked questions?
Q. I'm going to show you that same contract but ask some different questions about different portions
Mr. Putnam. Can I please have exhibit 12,729? May I approach, your honor?
The Judge: You may.
Q. now, Mr. Ortega, do you recognize this agreement (indicating)?
Q. And what is this agreement?
A. A certificate of employment for my company, loan-out.
Q. And I want to talk about that for a little bit. In the first paragraph of it, it talks about who the parties
are in the agreement.
Mr. Putnam. And, pam, show that first part there.
Q. it starts with "AEG Live productions." you see that?
Q. And then it's called "the company," gives an address, and then goes on to say, "has engaged the KO,
company," and it says, "employer." you see that?
Q. And goes on to say, "to furnish the services of Kenny Ortega (employee)." you see that, sir?
Q. I want to start there. Can you remind the jury what KO company is, sir?
A. It's my loan-out company.
Q. And you're the employee of that company; correct?
Q. And so -- and what it says here is that AEG Live productions has an agreement with KO company
for your services; correct?
Q. And so do you understand that this agreement provides your services to AEG Live productions
through your loan-out, Kenny Ortega company?
A. As I understand it, yes.
Q. And you're an employee of that company; correct?
Q. You're not an employee of AEG Live productions, are you, sir?
Mr. Panish. Well, your honor, asks for a legal conclusion, what is an employee versus another legal
status. And we've already had a ruling on legal status.
Q. what did you understand, sir?
The Judge: Overruled.
Q. did you understand you were an employee of AEG Live productions?
Q. What were you an employee of?
A. Ko company.
Q. And the agreement was between those two companies; right?
Q. And then it goes on to say, "in connection with the Michael Jackson concerts to be performed at the
02 arena in London on july of 2009 (the 'concerts')." you see that? 13435
Q. It doesn't talk about anything after London, does it, sir?
Q. And did you have an understanding as to why that was?
A. I was only contracted and we were only focused on the London production at this time.
Q. And is that because whether it went on or not was uncertain at this point?
Q. Now, going on, sir, if you turn to page 12,729-003, and I'll tell you that's sort of where the signatures
are (indicating). Do you see that, sir?
Q. All right. Whose signature is there for both the KO company and for the employee, Kenny Ortega?
A. My signature.
Q. On both of those lines; correct?
Q. So you were signing on behalf of your company?
Q. And on behalf of yourself individually?
Q. And then it goes on to say, "AEG Live productions company." do you know whose signature that is?
A. I can't make it out.
Q. Did you have an understanding that it was signed by somebody at AEG Live productions?
A. I would have assumed, yes.
Q. Okay. And at the top, it says, "executed as of April 26th, 2009." do you see that?
Q. Do you remember that that was the date on which you signed it?
A. It appears to be, yes.
Q. Now, you were asked a question by Mr. Panish about payment. What he asked you, he said: "even
though you didn't sign this agreement until April 26th, were you paid for the work you did before
signing the agreement?" do you remember that question?
Q. And your answer was that you had an understanding that you were; correct?
Q. But when were you paid? Were you paid before or after you signed?
A. From the papers that were put in front of me at the deposition, I believe I was paid in advance of
Q. In advance of signing?
A. I think so.
Q. Let me show you those documents, if I can, sir.
Q. And let me just ask you about it.
Q. At your deposition you were uncertain as to whether you were paid; correct?
A. Yes. Yes.
Q. And then you were showed certain documents, and that refreshed your recollection as to whether
you were paid?
Q. Okay. I'm going to show you that same document, if I can, sir. Exhibit 6239.
Mr. Putnam. May I approach, your honor?
The Judge: Yes.
Mr. Putnam. And if I may direct him, your honor, because it's long. Here and here (indicating).
The witness: thank you.
Mr. Putnam. Thank you, your honor.
The Judge: Thank you.
Q. now, take a minute to look at that, Mr. Ortega, and tell me if that's the document that refreshed
your recollection at the depo.
A. (reviewing document.) yes.
Q. Is that the --
A. Yes. Yes.
Q. And does that again refresh your recollection as to whether you were paid before or after you signed
A. Yes, it does.
Q. When were you paid, sir?
A. May 11th, 2009.
Q. So that would be after you signed the agreement; correct?
Q. So if Mr. Panish asked you a question that indicated you were paid for your services that you
performed prior to signing, you were not paid for those until after you executed the agreement; correct?
A. Yes. As per these documents, yes.
Q. Now, I have a question about that, sir. You signed on the 25th, you weren't paid until after that
period. Did you have an understanding as to whether you would be paid anything if you hadn't reached
an agreement and signed the document?
A. I don't believe so.
Q. You would not have been paid; correct?
A. I don't believe so.
Q. And is that something that's happened to you before, sir, in the entertainment business? Where
you've worked on a project --
A. I've put myself -- I've allowed myself to be in that situation a number of times.
Q. And to be clear, what is that situation?
A. What I call "working in good faith."
Q. Okay. So you were working on a project, and it doesn't go forward with you, and you end up not
being paid for that period?
A. I can't think of any specific example of that, but I'm sure, in my 40-something years, that that has
Q. Well, let me ask you a question: have you ever gone and worked developing a movie that you then
went and pitched to a studio and ended up not being hired for that movie?
Q. And in that instance, the work that you did for that pitch, were you paid for it?
Q. And is that something that surprises you?
A. No. It's sort of common in the industry.
Q. And so it's something that you just expect, if you don't reach an agreement and don't sign it, then
you won't be paid for the work that you've put in theretofore; correct?
Q. But here you reached an agreement, signed it, and then you were paid; correct?
Q. All right. Now, I want to go on a little bit further with the agreement, if I can, sir, and I have some
specific pages. Just a second. All right. If you could go to 0005.
A. On the first sheet or the --
Q. On your agreement. And if you look, it should be back on the fifth page.
Q. You see that, sir?
Mr. Putnam. And, pam, could we go down to paragraph 3, please?
Q. now, Mr. Ortega, you were asked questions about this paragraph. This is the paragraph that
indicates how much you were to be paid; correct?
Q. And in this first line, it says: "the additional 200k will be guaranteed." says that will be guaranteed;
A. Yes, sir.
Q. And was your salary guaranteed for this matter, sir?
A. I'm a little confused. I'm so sorry. I don't understand.
Q. Your salary. Your salary for the work you were going to do for the 02.
Q. Was that a guaranteed salary? Were you going to get that no matter what?
A. I believe so. I mean, once contracted, yes.
Q. Okay. So once you had the agreement, and it was signed, you'd be paid; right?
Q. But then you were asked questions by Mr. Panish about the next paragraph, the "bonuses." you see
Q. And it talks about bonuses to be paid in various territories; right?
Q. That doesn't have the word "guaranteed," does it?
Q. Do you have an understanding as to why?
A. Because those shows weren't booked or guaranteed.
Q. What do you mean by that, sir?
A. They were, I think, shows that Michael would hope that we would do, but they weren't on the
Q. So if those occurred, this is what you would be paid; correct?
A. That was the agreement, yes.
Q. And, for example, when you do a movie, sir, is it common for you to have in your agreement
something that will occur if you have -- usually bonuses at certain levels of -- if it makes $100 million,
you get a bonus; it makes 200 million, you get a bonus?
Q. And that's in your agreement; right?
Q. But that doesn't mean it's going to make that money, does it?
Q. That just sets out in advance what your bonus would be in case it goes that way; correct?
Q. In addition, have you ever had an agreement that says, "if you do movie 2, movie 3" -- like you did
"footloose." you did "footloose"; right?
A. Did not do "footloose," no.
Q. Oh, I thought you did.
Q. So you did "Newsies." you did "Newsies"; right?
Q. On "Newsies," in your agreement, do you recall whether it talked about if there was a Newsies 2 or
a Newsies 3?
A. I don't recall on that film, but I have had films like that.
Q. And that is in your agreement as to what you would be paid and what you'll do if that occurs;
Q. But that doesn't mean it's going to occur, does it?
Q. And what determines whether that occurs?
A. The success of the first film.
Q. So if successful, and they decide to make one, you already have in your agreement what your role
would be, and what you'll be paid; correct?
Q. And is that what this was right here, these bonuses?
A. As I understood in my contract, yes.
Q. Now, one more question about this portion, if I can, sir. Go back to the signature page. I think that's
6. Sorry. It may not be. Sorry. 3. 0003 (indicating). Is there a line here for Mr. Jackson to sign?
A. Not that I see.
Q. And do you see anywhere the following words: "the undersigned hereby confirms that he has
requested producer (AEG Live) to engage Kenny Ortega on the terms set forth herein on behalf of and
at the expense of the undersigned." and then a signature page, a line for Michael Jackson?
A. I'm so sorry. Am I to be reading this along with you?
Q. I'm actually reading something to see if anything like that is on your signature page.
Q. Nothing; right?
Q. Let me read you something else if I can, sir, and ask you if you have that anywhere in your
Q. "artist consent." "the effect of this agreement is conditioned upon the approval and consent of
Michael Jackson (the artist). Without Michael Jackson's express and written approval of the agreement,
neither party to the agreement will have any rights or obligations to one another arising from the
agreement." do you see that anywhere in your agreement, sir?
A. I do not on this page, no.
Q. Why don't you go through and see if you see it anywhere. And it would be in bold that says, "artist
A. You want me to go through all the pages?
Q. If you could quickly look and see if there's a paragraph with the beginning in bold that says, "artist
A. (reviewing document.) I didn't see anything in there.
Q. So this paragraph I just read to you called, "artist consent," you don't see it anywhere in your
agreement, do you, sir?
Q. All right. That's it for your agreement, sir. As I told you, I'm going to try to do this as quickly as
possible so you can go ahead with your life. Mr. Ortega, who chose you to be the director of the "this is
A. Michael Jackson.
Q. And I just called it a "tour." did you consider it a tour?
A. We called it a tour. It's an industry name for the work. We weren't really touring; we were just going
to one venue. People called it a tour, but really it was an event.
Q. And that event was for the 02; correct?
Q. And you said that Mr. Jackson chose you; right?
A. He invited me, yes.
Q. And did you have an understanding as to whether Mr. Jackson ever wanted anyone else but you?
A. I was -- no.
Q. In fact, do you have an understanding as to how badly he wanted you, don't you, sir?
A. He told me he only wanted me.
Q. You were his first and only choice; right?
A. As I understood it, yes.
Q. Well, he told you that, did he not?
Q. And right from the very beginning, he reached out to you and said he wanted you; correct?
Q. Now, is it fair to say that you were the director of the "this is it" concerts because of Michael
Jackson? Someone else choose you?
Q. It was because of him; correct?
Q. Now, a couple weeks ago when you were here, Mr. Panish asked you some questions, and he asked
you who first reached out to you about working on "this is it." do you remember that?
Q. And do you remember saying that you weren't sure, but you thought it was a man named Dr.
Q. And do you remember he then showed you your testimony from the criminal trial --
A. I do.
Q. -- where you had said something else?
Q. And after looking at that, do you remember then saying you guessed it must be Paul Gongaware or
Q. But that wasn't your recollection; correct? That was what was shown to you as to what you had said
Q. Did it refresh your recollection?
A. It -- I had said it years ago, and so, you know, I was making an assumption that perhaps that's the
way it was. But, really, at this time, I'm still not 100 percent certain.
Q. But he showed you something, and isn't that when you said, "I guess that must be it"; right?
A. Yes. Yes.
Q. Well, you also testified in other places in reference to your work with Michael Jackson; correct? For
example, you did a deposition in this case; right?
Q. Do you remember who you said reached out to you at the deposition?
Q. Okay. Would it refresh your recollection, what you said, if I showed it to you?
Mr. Putnam. If I could please have his depo, page 75, lines 9 through 15. May I approach, your honor?
The Judge: Yes.
The witness: yes.
Q. does that refresh your recollection as to what you said in a depo of this matter?
Q. And in a deposition of this matter, who did you say first reached out to you?
A. In the deposition, I remembered it as Dr. Tohme.
Q. And that's actually what you initially said here a couple weeks ago; right?
Q. You also had a deposition in another matter, did you not, sir? That was about insurance, Lloyds of
Q. Do you remember what you said in that deposition, sir?
A. I don't remember these answers and questions at this time.
Q. I understand that.
Mr. Putnam. May I approach, your honor --
Q. would it refresh your recollection to look at your deposition in that matter?
Mr. Putnam. May I approach, your honor?
The Judge: Yes.
Mr. Panish. Can I have the date of that?
Mr. Putnam. Page 75, lines 7 through 11. And the date is January 28th, 2013.
Mr. Panish. 2013. Is that volume 1?
Mr. Putnam. Yes, it is. Actually, the same page and same numbers.
Mr. Panish. What page, did you say?
Mr. Putnam. 75.
The witness: yes, I see it.
Q. and in that deposition -- in that deposition in another matter, who did you say first reached out to
A. I said I believed it was Dr. Tohme.
Q. So in those two depositions, you've indicated it was Dr. Tohme. Here, the first time you were asked,
you said you thought it was Dr. Tohme, but then you were shown something that you said in the
criminal trial where you said it was Paul Gongaware; correct?
Q. So I think you've already said it, but I'll ask. having seen both of those, but also having seen what
you said at the criminal trial, do you know, as you sit here today, who first reached out to you?
A. I'm not really certain.
Q. And that's what I thought you had said. Now -- and that's because this is a long time ago.
Q. You know it was one or the other. You just don't know which one?
A. Closely connected, and I just don't remember.
Q. Right. But you weren't lying at the criminal trial when you said that. That's what you remembered;
Q. And you weren't lying at these depositions because that's what you remembered then; correct?
Q. But whoever reached out to you -- strike that. And at the time, did you have an understanding as to
who Dr. Tohme was?
A. Not really, no. I'd never met him before.
Q. And did he indicate to you who he was calling on behalf of?
Q. And did you later come to learn what role he played in Mr. Jackson's life?
A. Not 100 percent, really. Just more like -- I just figured that he was a confidant, a friend. Not 100
percent really sure. I know -- yeah.
Q. But regardless of who reached out, whether it was Dr. Tohme or Paul Gongaware, you know who
hired you for this; correct?
Mr. Panish. Objection, your honor. We're back --
Mr. Putnam. Strike that.
Q. you know who said they wanted you to do this; correct?
Mr. Panish. He said, "invited."
Q. and who was that?
Q. So regardless of who reached out, you understood it was Michael's decision to have you there;
Mr. Putnam. May I approach?
The Judge: Yes.
Q. I'm moving on to something else. Did you know that AEG Live was the co-producer for the "this is
it" concerts at the 02?
A. That's how I understood it.
Q. And as co-producer, that usually means there's another producer. who was the other producer?
A. I believed it was Michael.
Q. And a couple weeks ago when you were here, Mr. Panish asked you some questions where you
testified that you sometimes reported to Mr. Gongaware for certain matters. Do you remember that?
Q. Now, the matters, however, were limited as to what you reported to him for, were they not?
Q. And what were they limited to, sir?
A. They were mostly creative regarding budget. Budget for creative.
Q. And let me break that down a little bit. For creative issues, who did you report to? Strictly creative.
A. Strictly creative? Michael.
Q. But then when it came time to figure out how to pay for that, who did you talk to?
A. I believe almost always Paul.
Q. And a couple weeks ago you also said that sometimes you would speak to him also about
scheduling. Do you remember that?
Q. Did you ever go to Paul or report to him for anything besides financial matters and sometimes
A. You know, maybe move-in dates. You know, big technical things. Moving into a new arena; the
timeline for that. When certain things might be delivered, big elements might be delivered. The lighting
trusses, you know. But those were schedules.
Q. I was going to say, it's schedules?
Q. And when you're talking about the idea of moving in, you talked about the idea that you would go
from center staging to a bigger venue, the forum, and then bigger yet when you go to staples; correct?
Q. And so things like that, you'd talk to Paul about?
Q. And when it came time to try to execute some of the creative ideas that you had with Mr. Jackson,
you'd go to Paul to see how to do it, what it would cost, et cetera; correct?
Q. Anything besides that?
A. Maybe personnel that we were interested in.
Q. And why would you go to him for personnel?
A. To set up contracts or, you know, negotiations so that we could work with an individual.
Q. So that would be paid again; right?
Q. So financial?
Q. So if you and Michael decided you wanted somebody, say a choreographer --
Q. -- a lighting person, a makeup person, hair and makeup, you would go to Paul so that he could start
the process of trying to get them executed with a contract; right?
Q. Would you go to him and say, "who do you want for hair and makeup?"
Q. Would you go to him and say, "Paul Gongaware, who do you want to be the choreographer on this?"
Q. Would you walk into Paul's office and say, "Paul, you've done this for decades. Who do you think
should be the creative force behind this?" would you do that?
Q. And why wouldn't you do that?
A. Because the creative person was Michael.
Q. Now --
A. And myself.
Q. And I was going to say, and yourself; correct?
Q. Because you did it as a team?
A. We talked about these things together, and I would go, with Michael's blessing, to Paul to, you
know, to begin the process.
Q. And let me understand that just a little bit. So you and Mr. Jackson would meet, go over items, talk
creatively. You'd reaffirm what you were thinking about, ideas, and then you would go to Mr.
Gongaware once you had them set and say, "hey, we'd like to do the following. Can we do this, or is it
A. I don't know if I would say, "is it too expensive?"
Q. Well, that's why I asked.
A. I would go and say, "this is what we'd like."
Q. And then he would execute it; right?
Q. You didn't go ask permission for it, did you?
A. Not really, no.
Q. I mean, did he ever tell you, you can't do something?
Q. Every time you went and said, "Michael wants the following," didn't they then do it?
A. He helped us make it happen.
Q. And can you recall any instance where that didn't happen?
A. I really can't.
Q. And when you went to him, you went to him because AEG Live was Mr. Jackson's partner, 13456
co-producer, and was financing the project; correct?
Q. Now, when it came to what happened with the tour, do you have an understanding as to who had
A. One more time.
Mr. Panish. It's vague.
The Judge: Sustained.
Mr. Putnam. I'm sorry?
The Judge: Vague.
Mr. Putnam. Vague. Sorry.
Q. when it came to determining the elements of the concerts, who'd be in them, what types of people
you'd go to, band members, anything, who had final say on that?
A. Final say would be Michael.
Q. Did you have final say over any of those things, sir?
A. No. Michael had final creative say.
Q. And why was that?
A. Because he was brilliant, and he knew what he was doing. And at the end of the day, you know,
creatively, I always trusted that Michael would make the right decisions for what he needed.
Q. It was his tour; right?
Q. And he was putting it together with your help?
Q. And he had a vision for what he wanted to do?
A. Yes. And a shared vision. We shared a vision.
Q. And, in fact, he hired you to help him with his vision and help him realize what he was going to do;
Q. Now, during that time period when you were working with Mr. Jackson -- and you testified before it
was February, March, April, May -- was Mr. Jackson involved in the process?
Q. How involved was he, sir?
A. He was fully involved.
Q. Would he not show up to rehearsals in this time period?
A. Not that I recall.
Q. Would he not show up at creative meetings?
A. Not that I recall.
Q. Would he not get back to you with answers on creative ideas when you'd have them?
Q. And in fact, how often was he coming and meeting with you, let's say, in February, March and
A. A lot.
Q. And --
A. "a lot" meaning, I would guess, three days, four days a week.
Q. And is it fair to say that your concern about his attendance at these meetings, whether rehearsals,
creative meetings, didn't really begin until sometime in June?
Q. Ultimately -- and I'm asking for your opinion, not legal, nothing else. Your opinion, sir.
A. Can we go back to your last question, please?
Q. Yeah. Anything.
A. To the best of my ability, you know, I remember it happening as we were leaving center stage,
moving toward the forum. I don't remember -- I can't say "June" without a calendar in front of me.
Q. And that would be May. On May 29th; okay?
Q. Now, my question for you, sir -- and, again, I'm asking for your -- what you thought. Not legally.
Nothing else. Who did you consider your boss?
Q. And whenever you've been asked that question, whether depositions or otherwise, haven't you
always said Michael?
Mr. Panish. Assumes facts not in evidence. Never been asked that question before.
The Judge: Depositions, you mean?
Mr. Panish. Yeah. Or anywhere.
Q. well, do you remember being asked in your deposition who your boss was?
A. I believe so, yes.
Q. Okay. And do you remember what you said?
A. I believe I said Michael.
Q. In all these meetings in this time period where you were with Mr. Jackson, can you recall a time
ever where you thought AEG Live --
A. Okay. I'm so sorry. I have to go back to that question.
A. Whatever I said, however I said it, you know, I thought of Michael as my partner; I didn't think of
Michael as a boss. However, I always -- you know, the final creative decisions always laid with
Michael all the years I worked with him.
Q. And that wasn't different in this instance, was it?
Q. Okay. Now, in all the time you were working on this, did you ever feel that AEG Live ever
pressured Mr. Jackson in any way? Did you ever see them pressuring him?
Q. And did you feel that AEG Live was supportive of Mr. Jackson during this process?
Q. And why is that, sir? Why do you feel that way?
A. I just feel that they -- everything that we brought to AEG, in terms of, you know, the enormous
creative -- our enormous creative needs in order to realize the full potential of "this is it," Michael's
vision that I shared, that AEG Was very supportive in doing all they could to assist us in making those
Q. And let's talk about that, just very briefly. This production grew and grew and grew in the time you
were working with Michael, did it not?
A. Yes, it did.
Q. And the cost of it grew and grew and grew, didn't it?
A. I would suppose it did.
Mr. Panish. I would just object on that. Foundation for this witness.
The Judge: Sustained. If he knows.
Q. did you go and ask Mr. Gongaware for more and more creative things to be added to the show?
Q. And, again, I think -- and he never said "no," did he?
A. Not that I recall.
Q. And as a result you and Mr. Jackson worked together over months to build the show; correct?
Q. And you kept adding elements from the time you began in February until the time that you were
about to go to the 02; correct?
Q. And was there ever a time that anybody at AEG Live came to you and said, "you've got to stop. This
is getting too big and too expensive"?
A. Not in those words, no.
Q. Well, tell me, what they did do?
A. Well, I think as professionals, they may have said, "really? Do you need this? Is this something you
really feel is going to benefit? Don't you believe we have enough here?" I think that, you know, that
they felt that we were getting to a place where they would like to have a ceiling, you know, because it
was a pretty fat budget. But in the end, I always felt that Michael was getting what Michael wanted.
Q. And when you went and asked for these things, you went and asked for them because Michael
wanted them; correct?
Q. Did you ever ask for something that Michael said he didn't want?
Q. All right. We'll go to the next thing. As I told you, I'm going to skip right through this; okay? Now,
the last time you were here, you testified that Dr. Murray -- you remember who Dr. Murray is?
Q. -- got involved in scheduling during the week of June 15th. Do you remember speaking about that?
A. Again, I don't remember the exact day. But, yes, I do recall discussing Dr. Murray's involvement in
Michael's portion of the scheduling.
Q. And up until that point -- I'll represent to you that at the time you were testifying, we were talking
about the week of June 15th; okay? So up until that time period, was there ever any other time that
you're aware of that Dr. Conrad Murray had anything to do with Michael's scheduling?
Q. So this was a new thing?
Mr. Panish. Well, object to foundation as to -- he said he didn't know. That's fine. But whether it's new
or not, he wouldn't know.
Q. to you, this was a new thing; correct, sir?
Mr. Panish. To him only.
The witness: yes. To me, it was a new thing.
Q. and were you in the meeting where it came about where Dr. Conrad Murray took on that
Q. So how did it come to be -- did you learn this from somebody else?
Q. Did you learn it from Mr. Jackson?
Q. Who did you learn that from?
A. If I'm not mistaken, I learned it from Mr. Phillips.
Q. And you also mentioned, when you were talking about that, that you thought that Mr. Phillips at this
point also got involved in the scheduling. You remember talking about that?
A. At this point I don't know that he so much got involved in it as he was watching over it.
Q. That's what I want to ask you about, because when you were here before --
Q. -- you were shown an e-mail, you may recall --
Q. -- from a man named Timm Woolley?
Q. And in that e-mail, it indicated that suddenly Dr. Conrad Murray and Randy Phillips were involved
in scheduling. Do you remember being shown that?
A. Wouldn't mind seeing it again.
Q. I can do that.
Mr. Putnam. Can I have exhibit 336, please?
Q. and while they're getting that, let me ask you a question: who is Timm Woolley?
A. Timm Woolley works in -- I believe in the, like, financial management -- he worked in the financial
management -- I don't know if he's AEG Or just part of the "this is it" group.
A. But I believe he worked in the financial areas of the project.
Q. And if I were to tell you that there's been testimony that he was a tour accountant, does that sound
right to you?
Q. Now, did you have an understanding that Timm Woolley was involved in scheduling in any way?
Q. Did you have an understanding that he would have any knowledge about or any reason about
Mr. Panish. Foundation for this witness.
Mr. Putnam. Asking if he has any understanding.
Mr. Panish. Foundation. How would he know if Mr. Woolley knows?
The Judge: Just "yes" or "no." overruled.
Mr. Panish. He doesn't know.
The witness: no.
Mr. Putnam. And if I may approach, your honor?
The Judge: You may.
Q. I'll give you a second to look at this and ask you if you remember looking at this when you were
questioned by Mr. Panish when you were here before (indicating).
A. (reviewing document.)
Q. Do you remember seeing that before, sir?
A. I don't.
Q. Okay. If you don't recall, you don't recall. You never talked to Mr. Woolley about scheduling, did
Q. Was he ever in a scheduling meeting with you?
Q. Is he someone who you understood had any role in scheduling?
Q. What was your understanding as to Mr. Phillips's role at the time in terms of scheduling? What did
A. I looked at Mr. Phillips as, you know, the promoter, Michael's promoting partner and producing
partner and who had an investment in this production and who wanted to make sure that it was --
everything was being taken care of that needed to be taken care of. And I think at that stage of the
game, Mr. Phillips probably took on an overseeing position to make sure that, you know, a schedule
was being designed that was responsible for Michael.
Q. When you say "responsible for Michael," what do you mean?
A. Just that Michael had many things going on that were brought to my attention, you know, aside from
the obvious, family, and that what they were trying to do was to create a schedule that could factor in
all of Michael's needs and still enable him to be able to come to rehearsal.
Q. Now, assume for a moment, an assumption -- so I'm asking you to assume something. Assume Mr.
Phillips came here. Assume he testified. And assume in his testimony he said he was not responsible for
Mr. Jackson's rehearsal or attendance schedule and that Mr. Woolley's e-mail was mistaken. Would that
Mr. Panish. There's no foundation, "would it surprise him."
The Judge: Overruled.
Mr. Panish. Also irrelevant, whether it would surprise him or not, whether Mr. Phillips said that
someone else is mistaken.
The Judge: Overruled.
Q. would that surprise you, sir?
A. One more time with the question.
Q. Absolutely. Assume for a moment that Randy Phillips came here and testified, and during that
testimony, he said that he was not responsible for Mr. Jackson's rehearsal or attendance schedule,
wasn't part of his job, and Mr. Woolley's e-mail was mistaken. Would that surprise you, sir?
Q. And did you ever work with Mr. Phillips in any way to arrange for Mr. Jackson's scheduling?
A. I didn't work with him to arrange scheduling, no.
Q. All right. Next. We're going through your testimony. Now, you were asked a number of questions
about June 19th. Do you remember that?
Q. And obviously you remember June 19th, what occurred that date?
A. I'll always remember June 19th.
Q. Terrible day. And you were asked about your observations that day, what you observed. What you
actually saw. Do you remember being asked those questions?
Q. Now, do you remember -- in your opinion, did you ever consider, when you saw Mr. Jackson, that it
looked like he might have a really bad flu? And if I can stop you for a moment. At that time.
A. On June 19th?
Q. Yeah. In other words, what's different, obviously, is we're now looking back. I'm not asking that. At
A. A really bad flu?
A. I suppose I might have suggested that it could have looked that way. It was -- it would have been a
very bad flu.
Q. And in fact, I was going to ask you that. You in fact said, the only way you thought you could
describe it is like when you have a really bad flu; right?
A. Very bad flu.
Q. Do you remember saying that, sir?
A. I don't. But I would say, if I did, yeah, I don't know that it was necessarily the best way of
Q. Because it was bad; right?
A. Yeah, it was bad.
Q. And when you were here, you talked about the idea that his condition improved over the course of
that evening; correct?
A. Yeah, a little.
Q. And he became more articulate?
Q. More coherent?
Q. He warmed up?
A. Uhm, yes, somewhat.
Q. He became more engaged?
Q. And he seemed calmer?
Q. Did you feel relieved over the course of the evening that he seemed to be getting better?
A. I felt somewhat calmer by the time he left than when I -- when he first arrived.
Q. But you were still concerned?
Q. And that's why you sent the e-mail; correct?
Q. Now, did you ever think that Mr. Jackson's condition that evening had anything to do with drugs?
A. It didn't appear to me. Didn't appear to me that it was drugs. It appeared to me that it was something
else. Emotional, physical.
Q. So at the time --
A. I'm not a doctor, I'm just --
Q. And I know that, sir. But you also were actually there.
Q. And so that's why I'm trying to get --
Q. -- what you saw, and what your impression was. So at that time, it never crossed your mind that this
might be drugs?
Mr. Panish. Well --
Q. might be drug related?
A. I don't remember thinking that. I remember thinking other things.
Q. And you had never seen Mr. Jackson like that ever before, had you?
Q. And in all the time that you were working for him in the months and months and months leading up
to June 19th, you hadn't seen anything like this; right?
Q. This was a real different Michael Jackson; correct?
Q. Now, Mr. Phillips wasn't there that night; right?
Q. And Paul Gongaware wasn't there that night?
A. Not that I remember.
Q. And is that why you asked for the e-mail to be sent to them?
Q. Because you thought they should know; right?
Q. But as a result, they didn't see him in that condition, either; right?
A. They weren't there. No.
Q. But then you let them know with the e-mail, and they responded right away with a meeting right the
next day; right?
Q. And you talked last time about the fact that they sent the material off to Mr. Jackson's various
representatives. You remember that? That -- Randy Phillips let his representatives know. I was very
quick. We had 20 minutes.
A. I'm sorry. One more time with the question.
Q. Sure. Do you remember talking last time, and I said to you, "if I were to represent to you that Randy
Phillips sent it off to Mr. Jackson's lawyers, et cetera, I asked you if you thought that was the
responsible and right thing to do." you remember that?
A. Yes. Yes.
Q. And then did you also think it was the responsible and right thing to do, to immediately have a
meeting with Mr. Jackson the next day?
Q. And not only did you have a meeting, you had a meeting where his personal physician was there;
Q. In your opinion, did that seem like an immediate response?
A. Pretty close to immediate, yes.
Q. I mean, did you feel they were dilly-dallying --
Q. -- or delaying in some way?
Q. Now, let's go to the next day. That day was June 20th; correct?
Q. And you testified last time that you were there, Dr. Conrad Murray was there, Michael Jackson was
there, and Randy Phillips was there; correct?
Q. And you said that in that meeting Dr. Conrad Murray appeared angry, started to like accuse you of
Q. He told you, you shouldn't be an amateur doctor; right?
Q. You shouldn't be an amateur psychologist?
Q. Told you to stay out of it and leave Mr. Jackson's health to him?
Q. And he went on to say that Mr. Jackson was physically capable of handling the show; correct?
Q. He said that Mr. Jackson was emotionally capable of handling the show?
Q. And last time you said that at that point, Mr. Jackson stepped into the conversation. You remember
Q. And you said that Mr. Jackson told you he was ready to take the reins?
Q. He told you not to worry?
Q. He thanked you for worrying but told you not to be afraid?
Q. And he assured you he was fine; right?
A. Pardon me?
Q. He assured you that he was fine? Michael Jackson.
A. I didn't feel assured.
Q. I was going to go there next. But he said he tried to assure you that he was fine?
A. He said -- I just remember him saying, "don't leave me. I'm going to take the reins. You'll see. We
can do this," you know. And he did seem absolutely stronger and committed.
Q. On the 20th?
A. On that moment, yeah. At that moment.
Q. But you were still concerned; right?
Q. Because you had seen him the evening before where he did not look well?
Q. But now, much like you said, like over the course of the 19th, the evening, he was getting better. He
seemed a lot better on the 20th, didn't he?
Q. Now, you then said something last time I wanted to ask you about. You said there was something
that made you uncomfortable at the meeting. And you said that Dr. Murray suggested that Mr. Jackson
told him one thing and then was saying another; is that correct?
A. Something like that.
Q. Explain that to me. What happened?
A. Well, when Dr. Murray was accusing me of -- he started out by saying I had no -- I'm paraphrasing
-- no right to not allow Michael to rehearse that night.
Q. On the 19th?
A. On the 19th. I had no right to not allow Michael to rehearse that night and that I had no right to send
him home. And I was, like, "wait a minute. That's not at all what happened." and I explained what
happened. And he looked at Michael and said, "but that's not how Michael presented it to me." and then
Michael said, "oh, no, no, no, no." and there was this sort of moment where there was, "wait a minute,
what's going on?" and I was, like, "Michael, tell him. I didn't forbid you." I didn't forbid Michael
anything. Michael said, "I want to stay. I want someone else to do the show, and I want to sit with you
and watch." and when it was time for Michael to leave, it was my suggestion, and he said, "would that
be all right?" and I said, "yes. Go home. Tuck your children in," you know. "feel better," you know.
And so I was hurt because I didn't forbid him anything. I did think it was the right thing that he didn't
go on stage. I did think it was the right thing that he went home. And that was the, what I would call,
the sort of misunderstanding or awkward moment for me. Nevertheless, I was told, as you said, to be
the director and to quit concerning myself with Michael's health; that it wasn't my responsibility.
Q. But he told you all these things prior to this uncomfortable moment; right?
A. They led up. I think he started in -- I think it probably started with, "you had no right to keep
Michael from performing that night." and I was, like, "wait a minute." and so I debated that, you know.
And I was like, "that's not what happened. It's a different story." then we moved past that, and then I
sort of got lectured.
Q. And Dr. Conrad Murray wasn't there on the 19th; right?
Q. And was it your impression, then, that Michael Jackson had told him something different than what
had actually occurred?
A. Or that he misunderstood Michael.
The Judge: I'm sorry. That Mr. Jackson misunderstood or that Conrad Murray misunderstood what?
The witness: I would like to think that Michael would never do anything to set me up in that way. I
think that Mr. Murray probably misunderstood Michael. That's what I felt. The way that Michael
looked at me and the way that he responded. And Michael clarified, by the way, in that meeting. He
clarified, right in front of everyone, that in fact it wasn't the way it went down and that what I was
saying was in fact the way that it went down.
Q. did you discuss anything about drugs in that meeting?
Q. Did Michael Jackson tell you how he was being treated by Dr. Conrad Murray at that meeting?
Q. Did he tell you what had been wrong with him the night before?
Q. Did he offer any kind of explanation for his condition the evening before that resulted in this
meeting the next day?
Q. Did you ask him?
Q. Did you ask Dr. Conrad Murray what was wrong with Michael Jackson the night before? Don't give
me the answer. I'm just asking you if you asked him.
Q. Did he offer any explanation as to what was wrong with Mr. Jackson the night before? Don't tell me
what it was, if he did. I'm asking, did he offer any?
A. I don't believe so, no.
Q. So there were assurances that he was okay; he could take the reins; that he was emotionally and
physically able to do the show. That was talked about, but there was no discussion about what had been
wrong with him the evening before?
The Judge: Is that correct?
The witness: yes.
Mr. Putnam. Take a break now, your honor?
The Judge: No. Keep going.
Mr. Putnam. Keep going? Okay.
Q. so I'll ask you about something you talked about last time. Do you remember talking about dancers
and that choreographers are not responsible for a dancer's health because dancers are responsible for
their own health?
Q. Do you remember saying that?
A. Something like that, yes.
Q. What did you mean by that?
A. I'd be happy to give you an example.
A. I worked with 10,000 performers during the Olympics. How could I be responsible for everybody's
Q. What about a choreographer dealing with three people? Is that choreographer responsible for a
Q. Why not?
A. Adults are responsible for their own health.
Q. At the time, did you think Mr. Jackson was responsible for his own health?
Mr. Panish. This calls for speculation.
The Judge: Overruled.
The witness: I didn't think he was being very responsible, but it was his responsibility, in my opinion.
Q. and that's hard for you to say; right?
A. Well, I wanted to take care of him. You always want to take care of someone if you care about them
and they're not feeling right. But you can't be responsible for them; they have to be responsible for
Q. And did you ever think that you were responsible for Mr. Jackson's health?
Q. You loved him; right, sir?
Q. You cared deeply about him?
Q. Did you ever discuss drugs with Mr. Jackson in any way?
Q. And you knew him for a long, long time; right? Since at least '91?
Q. But that's not a discussion you ever had with Mr. Jackson; right?
Q. You remember that you discussed last time working on the "Dangerous" tour; correct?
Q. And do you remember testifying as well that you had understood that a time came where Mr.
Jackson left that tour and went to rehab?
Q. And that tour was '92 to '93. Shortly after that in '95, you worked with Mr. Jackson on that HBO
Q. "one night only"?
Q. Before you agreed to do that -- strike that. Was it Michael Jackson who approached you and asked
you to help him with that?
A. Through someone else.
Q. Do you remember who it was through?
A. If I'm not mistaken, it was the director of the show, or it could have been someone else. But as I best
recall, I believe it was the director of the show that placed a call and said that "Michael would really
appreciate it if you could come and be here."
Q. And just to remind everyone, this was the one where you came on kind of as a consultant because
Mr. Jackson was concerned?
A. For lack of a better way of calling it. I don't even know if I had a title. I believe Michael had called
me in. He was unhappy with the way things were running, and he wanted me to be there, and he
wanted me to look at what was going on.
Q. And you agreed to do that; right?
Q. And when you did, did you ask Mr. Jackson about his rehab stint shortly before?
Q. Did you ask him at that point anything about his drug use?
Q. Did he talk to you about it in any measure?
Q. Before you agreed to go help him with this, did you think about maybe not doing it because he had
gone to rehab?
Q. And why not?
A. Because he came out of rehab.
Q. And what does that mean to you?
A. That he was moving on with his life and in health, I would have hoped.
Q. So as far as you were concerned, there was no reason not to help him with HBO; correct?
A. Of course not.
Q. And you did feel you were helping him with that; correct?
A. I was trying to, yeah.
Q. Now, you said you never discussed drugs in any measure with Mr. Jackson; right?
Q. Did you ever talk to him about nutrition?
A. As a general idea.
Q. What about physical therapy?
Q. His general health?
A. Just as a performing artist, you know, are you taking -- are you focusing on all of those things that,
you know, artists need to focus on when they're in production.
Q. And so you had talked to him about nourishment and health?
Q. Stretching and sleep?
Q. And would you express concern when you spoke to him that maybe he wasn't doing all those things
the way he should be?
Mr. Panish. Sounds vague as to time.
Mr. Putnam. At any time.
Mr. Panish. Well, it's overbroad, then.
The Judge: Sustained.
Q. you said that you did speak with him about these things; correct? Did you speak with him about
these things when you were working with him on the "Dangerous" tour?
A. I don't remember.
Q. What about when you were working on the HBO special?
A. I don't remember.
Q. What about when you were working on "history"?
A. I'm sorry. I thought you just said, "History."
Q. I said "Dangerous," first.
A. "dangerous." and then what was the second one?
Q. HBO, and then "History."
A. Maybe I might have during the HBO. I don't remember "history."
Q. And what about during the time that you were working with Mr. Jackson for the "this is it" shows?
Q. And you talked about nourishment, health, sleep and stretching?
Q. And you recall Mr. Jackson's reactions --
A. I think "warming up," maybe, rather than "stretching." but maybe I did use "stretching."
Q. And do you recall what Mr. Jackson's response would be when you would talk to him about these
A. Uhm, maybe in some areas, yes.
Q. And what was it, sir?
A. Uhm, well, I just -- when I asked if he was getting enough nourishment, he assured me that he was;
when I talked to him about massage, you know, he wasn't really fond of that. When I talked to him
about his nutrition, you know, he always -- you know, he always, in such a loving way, you know -- I
mean, I can see him looking at me, you know, and just smiling at me, you know, and "don't worry" or
"okay," you know. It was "don't forget to eat and get some rest," and, you know -- it was just like
brotherly, just, you know, as you remind anybody that you care about.
Q. And he would tell you, for example, about his weight, not to worry, it's okay?
Q. Did you ever tell him he needed to eat?
A. I don't know if I said it that way.
Q. What about telling him he needed to eat more?
A. I don't even know if I said it that way.
Q. Can you recall Mr. Jackson ever telling you that he was at his fighting weight?
Q. When did that occur?
A. I don't recall exactly when it occurred. I think later in the rehearsals.
Q. This was during "this is it"?
A. Yeah. It was a term -- it was something that he had said, you know, before "this is it." it was
something that -- you know, he liked to be at a certain kind of place. He felt better, you know, in terms
of being able to execute his moves and have the line and the look that he wanted.
Q. And did he say that at a time when you were expressing your concern about his weight?
Mr. Panish. Vague as to time, again.
Mr. Putnam. I said during the "this is it" tour.
Mr. Panish. No. I think he said --
The Judge: Overruled.
Q. was that his response during the "this is it" tour when you'd indicated that you were concerned
about his weight?
A. I might have been a little concerned by the time I brought that up, yes.
Q. And you said that he had mentioned this before. Had you ever discussed this idea about his fighting
weight and being thin?
A. Well, I think it was just something that I'd heard, maybe if somebody else brought it up.
Q. In your opinion, was Mr. Jackson always skinny?
A. I only knew him in the years where he was very what I would call a lithe, lean performer. Certainly
in his earlier years he was, I think, more muscle bound. In the years that I worked with him, he was
Q. And by that, you mean like in the '90s?
A. Yeah. When I first started working with him, he was very lithe and lean.
Q. And more muscles during that time period?
A. Yeah. He was strong, but lithe.
Q. Was that less so when you were working with him 20 years later on "this is it"?
A. Appeared so.
Mr. Putnam. Now, your honor?
The Judge: Should probably take a break now. Let's do 10 minutes.
The Judge: You may continue.
Mr. Putnam. Thank you, your honor.
Q. Mr. Ortega, what I'm going to do next is very briefly go through your work with Mr. Jackson. And
I'll just represent that the reason I'm doing so is, the last time you indicated that the last time you had
worked with Mr. Jackson prior to "this is it" was on that HBO special. So I'm going to try to go through
some of your work with you quickly.
A. Okay. And, again, that was a guesstimate.
Q. And let's see if we can fix that a little; okay?
A. Thank you. Okay.
Q. So was the first time that you worked with Mr. Jackson the "dangerous" tour?
Q. And you had never worked with him before then; right?
A. Not directly with him. I had been involved with productions that Michael was in, but I wasn't
working with him.
Q. And you came on, and you -- what was your role on the "dangerous" tour?
A. Uhm, I believe it was a similar capacity. I may have been just the director; might not have been a co-
director situation then. And then maybe supervising choreographer.
Q. And if I were to represent to you that that was in '92/'93, does that sound about right to you?
A. That sounds -- yes.
Q. Couple very quick questions about that. So when you come on in that role, how long do you stay
with the tour? Do you go through the whole tour? Stay with it from '92 to '93?
Q. What do you generally do?
A. Depending on -- I usually like to stay until I know that everything is working and that it's running to
the satisfaction of all the players; that the promoters are happy, and, of course, the artist is happy and
that I'm happy. And so sometimes that can be three or four shows; sometimes that's six or eight shows.
It really is dependent on the production.
Q. And just to make sure I understand, so sometime prior to the beginning of the "dangerous" tour, you
came on and worked with Mr. Jackson creating that tour?
Q. And then did you stay on for the first three, eight shows?
A. Yes. Something in there, yes, as I recall.
Q. And as the tour continues without you, you go home?
Q. And as we noted, both when you were here last time, and we talked about it briefly a moment ago,
that was the tour that ended with Mr. Jackson going to rehab, but you weren't there when that
Q. At the time that you were there, when you were working with Mr. Jackson preparing for the
"dangerous" tour, did you ever have any concern that he might be using drugs?
A. No. Not that I recall.
Q. Do you believe that if you had thought that, it would be something that you would recall?
Mr. Panish. Speculation.
The Judge: Overruled.
The witness: yes.
Q. and another question on that. When you were preparing -- when you were rehearsing, do you recall
if this was a time that Mr. Jackson lived at Neverland?
A. I believe he did live there, yes. 13489
Q. Did you ever do rehearsals there?
Q. Where did you rehearse?
A. For "dangerous"? I believe we worked in a soundstage.
Q. Here in Los Angeles?
A. Here in Los Angeles.
Q. So that was '92/'93. And then, '95, I'll represent to you, was the HBO special "one night only" that
you talked about before. And during that, before -- we talked about this last time, so I'll try to not go
through it all again. That was the one where Mr. Jackson collapsed, went to the hospital, and ultimately
that concert never occurred; right?
Q. Now, on that one, I had asked you earlier today if you were concerned before coming on board
because of the rehab. You said you weren't. During the time you were working with Mr. Jackson -- and
I understand it was brief -- for this special, the HBO special, up until the point where he collapsed, did
you ever have any concerns that Mr. Jackson might be using drugs again?
Q. Did he seem well to you?
A. Unhappy. 13490
Q. Unhappy. So he seemed unhappy, but physically he seemed okay?
A. He seemed tired and unhappy. Stressed.
Q. And -- but at no point did you think that he might be using drugs during that time; correct?
Q. And then he collapsed; right?
A. If that's what they called it. I mean, I just saw him go down. I didn't know if it was fainting or he
collapsed from --
Q. I was going to ask you that. You were there when that happened; right?
A. Yes. Yes.
Q. That was the beacon theater; right?
Q. So you were actually at the beacon theater. He was rehearsing?
Q. And he went down?
Q. Was it scary?
Q. Had you ever seen him do anything like that before?
Q. And what happened when he went down?
A. His security, and all the people that -- you know, that worked with him jumped right in very, very
quickly. And people immediately responded to get, you know, an ambulance. And everybody else kind
of just backed out of the way and gave people room. And I think we left the room before he was even --
paramedics took him.
Q. I was going to ask you that. So were you one of the people who rushed, or were you one of the
people who stood back and said, "give the people room to do what they had to do"?
A. No. I think there was a security group of people that worked with Michael at that time that were
very, very, very close to him. And they immediately asked everybody to get out of the way, you know.
And -- which is understandable. And they jumped right in there, and we just all sort of moved back out
of the way.
Q. And is it fair to say, then, that you didn't go talk to Mr. Jackson after this happened --
Q. -- at the beacon?
Q. Did you go -- he went to the hospital; is that correct? He went to the hospital?
Q. Did you go to the hospital?
Q. At any point while he was there, did you go to the hospital?
Q. Why not?
A. I wasn't invited. Certainly concerned.
Q. Did you ever discuss that collapse with Mr. Jackson?
Q. Is it fair to say that your consultation on that special ended that day?
Q. And so after that, did you go back to Los Angeles?
A. Went back -- if I'm not mistaken, sir, I went back to Nashville where I was working on a job.
Q. Okay. And did you ever discuss that collapse with Mr. Jackson at any point?
A. Not that I can remember. Pretty sure I didn't.
Q. When he collapsed, at that point were you worried that he might be doing drugs?
Q. He had just been to rehab two years before; right?
Q. And you knew that?
Q. And you weren't concerned about that? About that possibility?
Q. So that was '95. And the reason I'm bringing up the event is because you thought that was the last
time before "this is it." did you work on the "history" tour?
A. I did.
Q. And if I were to tell you that was '96/'97, after the HBO special, does that sound right to you?
Q. And that's one year later; right? Did Mr. Jackson ask you to come on board?
Q. And what was your role there, sir?
A. Same. Director. Probably creative, you know, like a -- I believe that's where we really started our
creative partnership. Envisioning the show together. Co-directing.
Q. And did that occur here in Los Angeles again?
Q. And during that, those rehearsals, did you ever rehearse up at Neverland?
Q. And I'd like to ask: "dangerous," was this another example where you came on, helped start with the
show, and stayed on for several concerts of the tour?
Q. Now, this is a year after the HBO -- so this is
A. Year after the HBO collapse and three years after Mr. Jackson went into rehab; correct?
Q. So when Mr. Jackson asked you to come on board to do this, did you have any concerns that he
might be doing drugs again?
A. Well, I didn't know that he was doing drugs.
Q. So when he went to rehab, what did you understand he had gone to rehab for?
A. Well, I'd read different stories. I heard that it was pain medication, and -- but, again, he came out of
rehab, and that his -- and his spell at HBO did not suggest to me that it was -- I mean, I was watching a
man who was anxious and stressed and unhappy, and I figured that that's what it was related to, his
faint or collapse. So when he invited me to be a part of "history," I always wanted to work with
Michael, you know.
Q. Were you excited?
A. I always bet on him.
Q. What do you mean by that?
A. I just believed in him and believed he would rise to the occasion.
Q. And in fact did he rise to the occasion on the "history" tour?
Q. But at the time you agreed, you didn't discuss with him the collapse?
Q. You didn't discuss with him the rehab?
Q. And is it fair to say you weren't concerned about those two incidents because you wanted to depend
A. I just think that Michael's enthusiasm and excitement, desire, passion, overwhelmed me and drew
me in, like always.
Q. And was it a good experience?
Q. Did you ever regret that you'd bet on Michael in terms of the "history" tour?
Q. Was it a good bet?
Q. And when you came on board and decided to work with him again -- again, this is '96/'97 -- during
that time when you worked with him, was there ever a time you were concerned that maybe he was
Q. Was there ever a time when you were concerned that -- well, during this time, did he seem tired and
Mr. Panish. What time are we talking about?
Mr. Putnam. Said he was tired and unhappy and stressed --
Mr. Panish. No, no. This time.
Mr. Putnam. When he was rehearsing for "History."
Mr. Panish. Vague as to when in time.
The Judge: I understand it to be the "history" tour. Did you understand it was "History"?
The witness: yes.
Mr. Panish. What time? What year?
Q. have to be in '96 when you were rehearsing for the tour in '96/'97?
Q. So during that time, you were rehearsing, which is up until it begins, and several shows in the
Q. There was no time when you were concerned about Mr. Jackson's physical state? Is that fair to stay?
A. Yeah, I don't believe so.
Q. What about his emotional state?
A. I don't believe so.
Q. And, again, no concern about drugs at that point; right?
Q. And now, you had indicated last time that generally you work on rehearsals, put together a show,
and then you go to the first couple, make sure it's working, and once it is, you're gone; right? Do you
sometimes come back to make sure things are going correctly or tweak it or anything like that? 13497
Q. Did you do that during "dangerous"?
A. During "dangerous"?
Q. I should ask you that. Did you do that during "Dangerous"?
A. I don't believe so. I don't believe I came back during any of them. I could be corrected, but I don't
believe I did.
Q. Then after that -- again, that was '96/'97 -- you worked with Mr. Jackson in Munich in 1999;
Q. And where did you rehearse for that, sir?
A. I believe right there.
Q. In Munich?
A. Yeah. Was that the one-off? Was that the charity?
Q. Where the stage collapsed?
A. Oh, no. That's -- you're talking about -- that's his tour.
Q. That was the tour?
Q. So the Munich show, then, was a one-off show in '99?
A. No. The bridge collapsed during his tour when I was still there.
The Judge: Which tour is that? Is that 13498 "History" or -- the witness: I believe it was "History."
Q. okay. So that occurred during the tour?
Q. When you were still following the show?
Q. So you were present for that; correct?
Q. And you talked about that last time. Go to '99, then. You had a one-off show in Munich?
A. We had one-off show in Europe with Andrea Bocelli, but I don't remember where.
Q. Okay. And that was sometime after "history"?
A. I think so.
Q. Okay. And --
A. Or it could have -- honestly, now you get me in trouble, because I'm not sure where the R.F.K. And
the European charity shows lined up with the rest of our touring.
Q. I will check at lunch.
Q. And see if that refreshes. And from Munich, when you were rehearsing --
A. I'm sorry.
Q. -- wherever it was in Europe --
A. So when you said, "where did you rehearse for that," I thought you were talking about for the
Q. Got it.
A. Right. We would always just rehearse where the charity was. The "History" tour was rehearsed in
Los Angeles, and then the technical and dress rehearsals would have happened in the opening city that
we would have performed in.
Q. So in '99 when you were -- I believe it was Munich, but I will check.
Q. -- do you remember having any concerns about Mr. Jackson's health at that time?
A. I don't recall having any concerns.
Q. Do you recall having any concerns about his emotional well-being?
Q. And what about any concerns that perhaps there was an issue with drugs?
A. Not that I recall.
Q. And I was just told that Munich was with -- was this one-off for the charity in 1999.
A. Okay. But that was not the bridge, was it?
Q. Was not? Okay. That, I can't tell you. I thought it was.
A. Munich was Andrea Bocelli, Michael and Andrea Bocelli, and that was a charity.
Q. Okay. And, again, no concern at that time?
Q. And then after that, you didn't work with Mr. Jackson again until the "this is it" tour; correct?
A. As I recall, yes.
Q. Now, when you got word that Mr. Jackson wanted you for the "this is it" tour, were you worried
about drugs at all?
A. No. I had seen him.
Q. Where did you see him?
A. Had dinner with him a couple of times. Brought the children to see "high school musical" live. Went
to the movies. And once again, he was just really excited, really determined, feeling ready, desiring.
And not knowing yet when it was going to happen or what it was going to be, but sort of feeling like
something -- he was ready to do something.
Q. I want to ask you about that, because you mentioned it in one of your depositions that you met a
couple times, and you all had discussed working at some point. Could you tell me a little bit about that?
A. Yeah. When I was in Las Vegas working on a project there, Michael joined me for dinner on a
couple of occasions, and they were just friendly dinners. But if we discussed anything, it was his desire
to go back out. He wanted to get it done, wanted to do it. And it was always, whenever we got together
-- which was rare -- that if we talked about anything, I think during that pre-period of "this is it," it was
just sort of an excitement that he was feeling that it was around the corner.
Q. And did you discuss at that point the idea that if it ever happened, you and he would work together?
Q. You just don't recall?
A. I just don't recall.
Q. And when he talked about this, what did he say? Did he say he was dying to go back on a tour? Did
he say he wanted to perform again? What did he say?
A. That came later. In the beginning, it was -- he was being approached. He was being approached, and
I believe there were two people. One of them was a Simon -- not Simon Cowell, but Simon who is
involved in the American idol enterprise. I believe he approached Michael. I believe Mr. Wynn might
have approached Michael. And they were all looking to find something to do with him. And I think
they were kind of, maybe, focusing on Las Vegas as an idea. I remember Michael saying he didn't want
to do that; that he didn't want to do something in Las Vegas. He wanted to get out and do something for
Q. Did he explain to you why he didn't want to do Las Vegas?
A. I just -- I think the idea of sitting in Las Vegas and doing, you know, five years in a theater wasn't
attractive to him. But, you know, I don't think we really got into it. I think I just sort of knew what he
meant by it.
Q. And when he discussed about going back on the road --
Q. -- did he seem excited at this point?
Q. And what time period are we talking about? If "this is it" began in 2009, was this in 2008? 2007?
A. I would say '8.
Q. Okay. And did you have any reservations when he mentioned this idea of going back on the road?
A. I was happy for him.
Q. Why is that?
A. Because he had been through so much drama, and I so wanted for him to find happiness and to be
the king again.
Q. And when you say he had been through all kinds of drama, I don't want to go through it all, but
you're talking about the decade prior? The various personal things he had gone through in his life?
Q. And did you have an understanding that wasdifficult for him?
A. Oh, yes.
Q. And when you talked to him about this going back on the road in 2008, did you get a sense that he
had turned the corner?
A. He seemed lit up. He was -- his children. His children, you know, lit him up.
Q. Changed his life?
A. I -- well, I mean I think the arrival of his children in his life definitely gave him something he didn't
have before. But he seemed happy. Happy to be their dad, happy to be in their life, and he seemed
exhilarated. He seemed like he was excited and like the Michael that I remembered, you know, at the
beginning of a new journey.
Q. And did that excitement continue in 2009 when you began to work with him on the "this is it" tour?
A. In the beginning.
Q. Tell me. What was he like?
A. He was unbelievable. His reasons for wanting to do the tour were, you know, extraordinary.
Michael's reasons, you know. His "raison d'être." his reason for being. Michael always had a reason that
lived at the center of what he did. He was very conceptual and really thought out, and there was great
depth of meaning and heart and reason that existed inside the work that we did, and that's what made it
all so exciting. And he was -- he was motivated. He was motivated.
Q. And did you have any doubt in this time period we're talking about now, 2008, beginning of 2009,
that Mr. Jackson would be able to go back and do this tour?
A. No. In my head, no.
Q. And were you excited at the prospect of being a part of this as well?
A. Oh, yes.
The Judge: I think we should stop for lunch at this point.
Mr. Putnam. Okay.
(The following proceedings were held in open court, in the presence of the jurors):
Judge: Katherine Jackson versus AEG Live. Good afternoon. Let's continue with Mr. Ortega's cross-
Mr. Putnam: Thank you, your honor.
Continued cross-examination by Mr. Putnam:
Q. Hello, Mr. Ortega. How are you?
Q. So we talked about the 20th, where you had a meeting and you were there, Randy Phillips was
there, Dr. Conrad Murray was there, and Michael was there. And did that take place at the Carolwood
Q. And I'll represent to you that the 20th was a Saturday. All right?
Q. Now, Mr. Jackson took a couple of days off after that, didn't he?
A. It was a holiday weekend if I'm not mistaken.
Q. Was it Father's Day?
A. Don't know.
Q. Don't remember? Okay. But he did come back to work on Tuesday, did he not?
Q. And that was June 23rd?
Q. And could you tell us a little bit of how the 23rd went? You had left him concerned on the 20th.
How was he on the 23rd?
A. He was in great spirits, ready to work.
Q. Was it a different Michael Jackson that day than the one you had seen on the 19th?
Q. When you say "completely," what do you mean?
A. Well, he was just -- he seemed healthy and ready and happy, and there didn't seem to be any
leftover issues from the 19th.
Q. Were any of the things that you saw on the 19th there in front of you when you got there on the
A. No, not that I recall, no.
Q. Anything at all? Did he seem cold? Did he seem lethargic? Ill in any way? Incoherent?
A. He was -- he always got a little chilly, but that was normal. Not chilly like he was on the 19th.
Q. And were you surprised?
A. It was just like a metamorphosis, like a -- I'm not surprised that I saw him healthy again. I
imagined him healthy again, but it just -- so quickly, I was surprised.
Q. And did you say anything to him like, "What happened in the last couple of days?"
Q. Why not?
A. I didn't pry into his personal life.
Q. Did he rehearse?
Q. How was the rehearsal?
A. It was great.
Q. Was it great like compared to the 19th, or great compared to any rehearsal?
A. It was one of the best rehearsals that we'd had up until then.
Q. How long was he there?
A. A number of hours.
Q. And did he go through any of the songs?
Q. How many, if you can recall?
A. I believe he went through "the way you make me feel," went through the duet, I think he went
through "beat it." over those two days, he went through a number of songs.
Q. And had he taken the reins on all aspects of the production at that point?
Q. Well, he --
A. When I say -- I mean, he didn't take the reins in that he came in and just started, you know -- I
think that -- that he was in charge. He was in charge; and he was not only rehearsing, but he was
capable of having conversations with regard to other aspects of the production.
Q. And did you have those conversations?
A. Yes, we did.
Q. About what, sir?
A. The films, the effects, costumes.
Q. And isn't that what he told you he was going to do on the 20th?
Q. So when he said he was going to be in charge, take the reins, get in control of this, is that what
actually happened on the 23rd?
A. Sure appeared so.
Q. Did you wonder on the 23rd what had gone on on the 19th?
A. No. I just embraced it and was grateful for it.
Q. Did you discuss it with anyone?
A. I think we all were just so delighted, the energy in the room changed, the hope returned, and it was
a gladness and energy in the room that was real positive and optimistic.
Q. When you say the energy changed in the room, what do you mean?
A. Just that everybody felt that there was a different Michael in the room.
Q. Was this the Michael that you had seen back in 2008, the beginning of 2009, when you first
embarked on this tour?
A. I would say similar, yes.
Q. Similar how, sir?
A. Well, in the -- in the early part, Michael wasn't rehearsing and performing. Now he was
performing on the stage with the band, with other performers, and so it was -- it was the Michael that I
had been waiting to see.
Q. And did you see the Michael you'd been waiting to see on the 23rd?
Q. Were you excited?
A. So excited.
Q. Did you think that whatever problem you had on the 19th was now past you?
A. I sure hoped so.
Q. Did it appear to you that it was?
A. Seemed like it, yeah.
Q. Was Randy Phillips there, do you know?
A. I know he was there the next night. I don't know if he was there that night. I can't recall.
Q. So you know he was there the 24th, you're just not sure about the 23rd?
Q. Now, did you say anything to Mr. Jackson that day about, you know, how amazing it was to finally
have him there?
A. I -- I didn't say it with respect -- it wasn't like a comparative thing. It was just, you know, "What a
great night. You look fantastic, you know, super excited." Just commenting on the positives that were
happening, you know, in the room and his performances, his clarity, energy, desire.
Q. Now, when you were last here, we looked at some of your emails and talked about the idea that
you were concerned that Mr. Jackson might not be able to proceed with the tour as of the 19th. Do you
Q. What about on the 23rd? Were you concerned on the 23rd that he couldn't proceed with the tour?
A. You know, again, I just embraced it and wanted to believe that it was what we were going to be
Q. And on the 23rd, did you believe that to be true?
A. Yeah, that's what I felt.
Q. Tell me about the 24th. How was he on the 24th?
Q. Was he as good as he was on the 23rd?
A. Almost, you know.
Q. When you say "almost," what do you mean?
A. Just probably a little -- a little tired from the 23rd, but still very much -- very there, very present,
very involved in all -- you know, we had meetings with -- about the 3D, the films. Again, we talked
about things outside of the show; and he also stood onstage and performed. And as we discussed, he did
"Earth Song" that evening, and I believe "Heal The World."
Q. And how were his rehearsals and performances on the 24th?
Q. Again, were you concerned anymore that you weren't going to be able to make it to the opening
night at the 02?
A. No. I -- I was feeling like we were -- we were back on track, and feeling really grateful and
believing that we were now in a -- in a new chapter.
Q. Were you excited?
A. I was very excited.
Q. Again, did you discuss --
A. I would say less excited and deeply grateful.
Q. Did you have any idea what had changed in the couple of days?
A. Maybe a lot of rest?
Q. Is that what you thought at the time, maybe he got a lot --
A. He did seem rested, stronger.
Q. How was his clarity?
Q. Now, as we know, and I won't go through it, the following day, Mr. Jackson passed. Was there any
sign on the 23rd or 24th to you that that might occur?
Q. Did you have any issue on the 23rd and 24th that he might be using drugs?
Q. Did you have any concern at that point as to what was going on with Dr. Conrad Murray?
A. Not at that point; but at an earlier point, yes.
Q. You did on the 19th, correct?
Q. But on the 23rd and 24th?
A. I don't think I was thinking about Dr. Murray.
Q. And why not?
A. I was just happy to see Michael in a good space and, you know, back onstage, and -- I think I was
just -- just pretty much focused on that. You know, I mean, as I recall.
Q. So as of the 24th, you thought it was all systems go?
A. I think so. I think that was pretty unanimous. I think to our surprise, but yes.
Q. Did anybody express to you otherwise on that day?
Q. What about on the 23rd?
Mr. Putnam: No further questions, your honor.
Judge: Thank you. Redirect?
Redirect examination by Mr. Panish:
Q. How are you doing, Mr. Ortega?
A. Okay, Mr. Panish.
Q. First of all, Mr. Ortega, the 23rd and 24th, you thought that Michael had gotten real organic sleep,
Ms. Stebbins: Objection; leading.
The witness: Yeah.
Mr. Panish: And before that when you saw Michael, you thought he looked very tired and without
A. Yes, yes.
Q. And I want you to assume in this case that the testimony has been that Michael Jackson was
getting Propofol and not sleeping for 60 days. Okay? Just assume that.
Ms. Stebbins: I'll object that that misstates the testimony, your honor.
Mr. Panish: No. It's Dr. Czeisler's testimony.
Mr. Panish: And I want you to assume that, Mr. Ortega.
Q. And when you saw Mr. Jackson there in mid -- strike that. When you saw Mr. Jackson there the
19th, you didn't know what his problem was, right?
Q. But the symptoms he had, did that look like someone that hadn't had sleep for a long time? Those
symptoms that you told us all about looked like someone who hadn't had sleep for a long time?
A. I think that might have been a factor in there.
Q. Okay. And then all of a sudden, you called it the miraculous recovery, right?
A. It appeared.
Q. Okay. And I want you to assume that he didn't have Propofol the last few days before he went to
the rehearsal. Okay?
Ms. Stebbins: I'll object that that lacks foundation, your honor. There's been no testimony --
Mr. Panish: There's been testimony of Dr. Brown in the questions of Ms. Cahan.
Q. So, now, no sleep, he's doing terrible. The last few days, he gets sleep, all of a sudden, he's doing
A. Well, I assume sleep had to be a part of it. He just looked rested.
Q. Right. But the last few days, he looked to you like he'd really had some, as you call it, real organic
A. Yeah, deep sleep, you know, real sleep.
A. Yeah. Rest.
Q. But before that, he didn't look like that, did he?
A. Not on the 19th.
Q. All right. And certainly if he hadn't been sleeping and he finally got some real organic sleep, that
would explain why he did better, wouldn't it?
Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Ortega, let's talk about some other issues. And I'm not going to go forever. I know
you're a busy man. But I do want to cover some of the areas that Mr. Putnam was asking you about.
Q. First of all, Mr. Ortega, you've been -- you've known Mr. Jackson for a number of years, right?
Q. And you liked Mr. Jackson, right?
Q. And you also liked Travis Payne and Alif Sankey and the other people you were working with,
Ms. Stebbins: Your honor, I'm just going to object that all of these are leading and it's redirect.
Mr. Panish: It doesn't matter. I mean, it's --
Mr. Panish: Now, Mr. Ortega, first of all, counsel asked you questions about drug use.
Q. Do you remember those questions?
A. Counsel --
Q. Mr. Putnam.
Q. And, sir, isn't it true that you saw Mr. Jackson at least four times under what you -- appeared to be
some kind of drugs during the rehearsals for "This Is It"?
Q. So that would have been a concern to you, wouldn't it, sir?
A. Yes, but it was -- it seemed like it was doctor-related, sir, so it wasn't like taking drugs so much as
being under the influence.
Q. And, sir, you don't know if Mr. Jackson ever took any drugs without a doctor, do you?
Q. And you also told us -- or you were questioned about Michael Jackson's physical condition. Do
you remember those questions by Mr. Putnam?
Q. Okay. Now let me ask you this, sir. First of all, you've been 40 some years in the business; is that
Q. And you knew, and you were shown the contracts, that AEG Live was the promoter and the
Q. And you knew that as the producer, one of the things they do is manage the production, correct?
Q. And engage third-party vendors, correct?
Q. And you knew that the way the producer -- when they do that work, they get a fee for doing that?
That's standard in the industry, right?
Q. And you knew that AEG Live -- by them being the producer, that allowed Michael to focus more
on the creative part of the show?
Q. And that was important, as you said, right? Is that correct?
Q. And, sir, in the 40-year history you've been in the industry, have you ever heard of a producer
getting involved in the hiring of a doctor for an artist?
A. I haven't.
Q. That's what I'm asking. You, your knowledge.
Q. Never heard of that?
A. Not that I recall, no.
Q. And, sir, in your 40 years in the industry, have you ever heard of a producer engaging lawyers to
negotiate contracts with doctors for an artist?
A. Not usually involved in that aspect of the business, so that would be a -- yeah.
Q. You've never heard of that, have you, sir?
A. Of --
Ms. Stebbins: Objection; lacks foundation, your honor. He's not involved in that part of the business.
Mr. Panish: He was just asked --
Judge: Sustained as to whether he's been involved in it.
Mr. Panish: Well, no.
Q. You've been involved, in 40 years, in numerous shows, haven't you?
A. Yes, yes.
Q. You talk to producers all the time?
Q. You deal with artists all the time?
Q. Have you ever seen or heard ever, in your 40 years, of a producer getting a lawyer to negotiate a
contract with a doctor?
Q. It would be very unusual, based on your experience, correct?
Ms. Stebbins: Objection; lacks foundation, your honor. He says he has no experience on the lawyer
side of things, so --
Judge: The question was "Have you heard."
Ms. Stebbins: The second question was "Would it be unusual in your experience," your honor. I
think that's where it lacks foundation.
Mr. Panish: I'd like to get done.
Q. It would be very unusual in your experience, sir?
A. I wouldn't say in my experience. It just would appear unusual.
Q. All right. Well, you've never seen it, right?
Q. So based on your experience, it would be unusual, what you've seen, right?
A. Yeah, just from what I know, I would think it was unusual.
Q. Okay. Fair enough, sir. Have you ever -- strike that. Now, you were talking about what the duties
-- strike that. You talked about the producer and what they could do. The producer could terminate the
artist at any time, based on your understanding, correct?
A. The difference --
Ms. Stebbins: Objection; lacks foundation.
Judge: The producer can terminate the artist?
Mr. Panish: Yes.
Ms. Stebbins: Also vague as to "terminate."
Mr. Panish: Fire.
Q. Do you know what the word "terminate" means, sir?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. You understand that AEG Live could fire you for any reason, don't you?
A. Well, I didn't think of myself as the artist; so were you talking about me or were you talking about
Q. Well, I consider you an artist.
A. The artist was Michael.
Q. Okay. But they could fire Michael?
Q. How do you know that?
A. He was their partner.
Q. Have you seen the contract?
A. No; but Michael told me that.
Q. They could fire you at any time, couldn't they, sir?
A. I think that would upset -- that would have upset Michael pretty much.
Q. I'm sure it would. But they could fire you, the producer, if --
A. I assume they could, yeah. I assume they could, yeah. Yeah, production managers are usually in --
I don't need to be reminded. We can just have a conversation.
Q. Okay. Well, this is an easy question. Isn't it true, sir, the producer could fire you if they wanted to?
Ms. Stebbins: Your honor, I'm going to object to -- ask the witness be allowed to answer questions
before being interrupted by Mr. Panish with comments like, "It's an easy question."
Mr. Panish: Mr. Ortega, have you testified under oath in this case that the producer could fire you if
they wanted to?
A. I assume they could give it a good try.
Q. Sir, you knew they could fire you. You've testified about that in this case, have you not?
A. I'm saying they could fire me, but I doubt that it would last more than 24 hours.
Q. All right. Well, we'll go with that.
A. Each situation is different, Mr. Panish, with all respect, and I mean that sincerely. Each producer
relationship with directors and artists all through this industry are unique. None of them are the same. I
don't think a producer could fire Tom Cruise.
Q. Okay. Movies are different than concerts, aren't they, sir?
A. I don't think that producers could fire Cher.
Q. Okay. Well, let's talk about this, sir, since you've had a lot of experience, you said, with producers,
Q. And you've --
A. I am one.
Q. Right. And you've reviewed production budgets, right?
Q. You've had a lot of experience with that, right?
A. Some, yeah.
Q. Have you ever seen a doctor for the artist on the production budget?
A. Not that I recall, no.
Q. That would be unusual, in your experience, correct?
A. It would be unique, yes.
Q. Have you ever been involved in a concert series where the promoter was going to purchase a
C.P.R. machine for the artist?
A. Not that I'm aware of.
Q. Have you ever seen that on a budget for anything that you've been involved in, sir?
Q. Have you ever been involved in a situation where the producer/promoter was buying saline,
catheters and needles or a gurney for a doctor for the artist?
Q. Have you ever had a situation where an artist's doctor creates the schedule for the rehearsal for the
Q. Have you ever been in a situation where the C.E.O. Of the producer and promoter was involved in
the artist rehearsal and attendance schedule at rehearsal?
A. C.E.O., no. Producers and promoters, yes.
Q. So it's your experience that producers and promoters, along with a doctor --
A. Not with a doctor, no. I'm sorry. I misunderstood the question.
Q. Fair enough. I'd like to know in all your experience of 40 plus years, have you ever seen a
situation where the C.E.O. Of a promoter/producer and a doctor set the rehearsal schedule and the
rehearsal attendance for the artist.
Q. Would that be unusual?
Q. And, sir, in this case, you were told by Mr. Phillips that Mr. Phillips and Dr. Murray were setting
the rehearsal schedule and responsible for Mr. Jackson attending rehearsals, correct?
Ms. Stebbins: Objection; misstates the testimony.
Judge: Say it again, Mr. Panish? Repeat it?
Mr. Panish: Sure. Let me
just get the exact cite first, and I'll say it so there's no issue. Let's see.
Q. Have you, sir -- first of all, let's start with that exhibit that's right in front of you, sir, that Mr.
Putnam showed you, 336, dash, 1. Do you see that?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Okay. And you were asked a lot of questions if you'd be surprised about certain things, right?
Q. Okay. And, sir -- that's in evidence, 336. Let's put that up that Mr. Putnam asked you about. And
you were asked -- you were asked questions about Mr. Woolley, right?
Q. And Mr. Woolley and -- but down below, there's emails from Mr. Gongaware. I want you to
assume that Mr. Woolley testified that he took his directions from Mr. Gongaware. Okay?
Q. Can you assume that for me?
Q. And first of all, did you think that you were not being demanding enough of m.J.'s attendance or
causing concern with the schedule that was being imposed?
Q. Did you -- you knew -- strike that. Would you be surprised if Mr. Woolley reported what Mr.
Gongaware told him that Randy Phillips and Dr. Murray are responsible for m.J.'s rehearsal and
Ms. Stebbins: Objection; lacks foundation that Mr. Woolley was told that by Mr. Gongaware in any
way, shape or form.
Mr. Panish: Let's go down the email.
Q. Who is the first email from, sir?
A. From Paul Gongaware, doesn't say who to -- Paul -- I'm sorry. It says "Paul, any show
rescheduling going on that bob Taylor needs to be made aware of? Timm." oh, it's from Timm Woolley.
Q. Did you know who Mr. Woolley was, sir?
Q. Did you think Mr. Woolley was lying in that email?
Ms. Stebbins: Objection; lacks foundation.
Mr. Panish: They asked the same question about Mr. Phillips.
Ms. Stebbins: Your honor, there's no foundation that this witness has any familiarity with this email.
Questioned him about it once already. But in terms of evaluating where Mr. Woolley got his
information or whether it was credible or not, that's not something this witness can do.
Mr. Panish: They asked about Mr. Phillips, the same question. Let's go back and see what it says.
Q. Do you remember being asked the question whether you thought Mr. Phillips was lying? Do you
remember those questions, sir?
Ms. Stebbins: Objection; misstates the testimony. I don't think there were any such questions.
Judge: I thought the question was "would you be surprised that."
Ms. Stebbins: Yes.
Mr. Panish: Right.
Judge: So I think we got a little far afield from the -- from that question.
Mr. Panish: Okay.
Q. Did you know that Mr. Woolley was the C.F.O. of AEG at one point in time, AEG Live, sir?
Q. And in your testimony last time you were here -- let me see if I can find it for you -- do you
remember being asked questions about the rehearsal schedule, sir?
Q. Do you remember what page it was on? I'm just kidding. Don't answer that.
A. Were you asking me?
Q. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. I know it's in here, I've just got to find it. It's 900 -- it's on 900 --
Judge: He thought he was on the hot seat there.
Mr. Panish: If you had that one, I'd stop -- okay. 99 -- I can't even read my own handwriting. Oh.
Q. Okay. Mr. Ortega --
A. Yes, sir?
Q. -- do you remember that you raised concerns about Michael Jackson's health?
Q. And -- and you understood when you raised these concerns that Randy Phillips and Dr. Murray
were both going to be responsible for M.J.'s rehearsal and attendance schedule, correct?
A. I recall it was Dr. Murray that was going to be responsible for the schedule.
Q. Okay. And attendance?
A. The schedule.
Q. Well, let's put up your testimony.
Q. That's page 9937, lines 12 to 21. Okay? This is what you testified when you were here before. Do
you remember that?
Q. And you told the truth then, didn't you, sir?
A. I always try to tell my -- the truth.
Q. Okay. All right. Good. And your memory, was it better then than it is today, or is it better today?
A. It gets better all the time.
Q. I wish I had that. Let's go up and put up what you said, Mr. Ortega. Let's start -- I'm just going to
go through line 12.
Q. So at some point in time, you raised some concerns, and we'll get back to that, but it was before this,
Q. And you understood after concerns that you had raised that Randy Phillips and Dr. Murray were
both going to be responsible for MJ's rehearsal and attendance schedule? Is that what you
Mr. Panish: Did I read that right, Mr. Ortega?
A. You did. You did, yes.
Q. Was that your testimony when you were here last time?
A. I believe it was or you wouldn't have put it up there.
Q. Thank you.
Q. And that's consistent with if we go back to exhibit 336, dash, 1, the email that Mr. Putnam showed
you this morning, isn't it, sir?
Q. Now, you were asked about Michael Jackson inviting you to come join him. Do you remember
that -- on this project?
Q. And you were asked about your criminal testimony, which is in the year 2010, by Mr. Putnam,
correct? Is that right?
Q. And in 2009, you testified under oath in the criminal case, correct?
Q. And did you testify at that time that Paul Gongaware was the first one that contacted you and then
Michael called you after that?
A. I believe you showed that as my testimony, yes.
Q. Okay. Was that truthful testimony that you gave there, sir?
A. It was -- it was to the best of my ability at that time, yes.
Q. Okay. Fair enough. And, sir, your manager, when they were negotiating with AEG Live, despite
the fact -- despite the fact that Michael wanted you, AEG Live drew the line in the sand at one point,
Ms. Stebbins: Objection – obje
ction; lacks foundation.
Judge: Overruled on that.
Ms. Stebbins: Compound.
A. Little vague, though, what you mean by drew the line in the sand in connection with --
Mr. Panish: Okay.
Q. AEG told you -- I'll rephrase it.
A. I think I know what you meant.
Judge: If he understands it, no problem.
Mr. Panish: Go ahead.
The witness: I think at a certain point, there was a standstill.
Q. And they said, "Sorry, we can't work it out," right?
A. I think they said something more like, "It's beyond us, it would have to go to Michael to go
beyond this point."
Q. Well, do you remember me showing you an email about that, sir, last time?
A. I don't.
Mr. Panish: Let me see if I can find that one for you, sir.
Ms. Stebbins: Also, your honor, just for the record, the trial of Dr. Murray was in 2011, not 2010.
Mr. Panish: Okay. Whatever you say, I'll accept it.
Q. Remember, your agent -- I questioned you about this last time?
A. I remember I was talking about this last time, yes.
Q. And your agent was negotiating with -- Ms. McDonald; is that right?
A. Ms. McDonald, yes.
Q. And she was negotiating with Mr. Gongaware?
Q. And at some point in time, Mr. Gongaware says you wanted too much money. Do you remember
A. Something like that, yes.
Q. And -- I'm going to have Mr. Boyle help me out, find that, so I can move along. Now, sir, everyone
that you worked with on the "This Is It" tour, Travis Payne, Alif Sankey, Stacy Walker, Karen Faye, to
your knowledge, had contracts with AEG Live, correct?
Q. And even you, as co-director and co-creator -- or as director and co-creator, had to report to AEG
Live for financial matters, correct?
Q. Scheduling matters?
Q. And timelines?
Q. Nothing unusual about that, right?
Q. And exhibit 128, they're telling me. 128. I don't have a copy. I'm sorry. Let me show it to you, put
it on the screen. Okay. Mr. Gongaware, do you see this -- Mr. Ortega, do you see this email?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Do you remember me showing that to you last time?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Do you remember Mr. Gongaware writing in the email to you that they can't move forward
because of your financial requirements for the deal?
Q. And does it mention Michael Jackson anywhere in that email?
A. Not in this one.
Q. Okay. Do you have one where it mentions Michael Jackson?
A. I believe you -- the court had one.
A. I thought there was an email; and I may be mistaken, but I thought there was an email where he
said he had to have -- have Michael's approval beyond a certain number. But I could be mistaken, sir.
A. But I do remember this, yes.
Q. Okay. Fair enough. Now, sir, have you been in a lot of concerts that had $30 million plus
production costs expended?
A. Not a lot, no.
Q. How many would you say?
A. I did one in Japan.
Q. Who was that with?
A. That was with a group called "Dreams Come True," "Dorimuzu Kamu Turu," and they were the
number 1 largest Asian act in the world, and I believe their stage cost something like $25 million.
Q. A lot of people come to concerts in Asia?
A. 80,000 a pop.
Q. Do they got big stadiums like that they can get 80,000?
A. Actually, they didn't have a stadium big enough and we had to do their show in Tokyo at the
harbor. They actually had to create a space large enough; which they had to do for Michael on a
number of occasions, as well.
Q. So 80,000 people came to that show in Tokyo?
A. And, you know, Olympics, and, you know, projects like that. But other artists, no. I think only
Michael and only -- and only -- I think only Michael and only "dreams come true" at that number, you
Q. Are you aware of any artist in the world that would have the drawing power of Michael Jackson?
Ms. Stebbins: Objection; lacks foundation.
Mr. Panish: Based on your experience and 40 years working as a director, producer, choreographer,
dancer yourself, singer, all the things you've done.
The witness: I would think done right that Michael would be the biggest draw on the planet.
Mr. Panish: In other words, if the show was good, producers were good, Michael wanted to do it, he
had a good doctor, he could do it?
A. Marketing, advertising, that I think that Michael would be, clearly, with his history, you know,
probably the biggest draw.
Q. You don't think Celine Dion is bigger than Michael Jackson?
A. No. I mean, there are groups out there that would come close, you know. There really are, you
know. I would think that the Stones probably come close, McCartney probably comes close. But I do
think that Michael would certainly -- if not be the number 1, would be darn close.
Q. Okay. Fair enough. But in Asia -- was he popular in Asia, based on your experience?
A. He was popular all over the world.
Q. Asia, South America, Australia, Europe, everywhere?
A. At one time. I mean, this was a test, he hadn't been out in ten years.
Q. Well, how did he do for his popularity at the 02?
A. He sold out 50 shows.
Q. So how would you say that was? Was that good? Bad?
A. Pretty awesome. Historical.
Q. Historical. Okay. And, sir, I think you told us that as far as you were concerned, if Michael was
healthy, there's no reason he wouldn't have done the 50 shows at the 02; is that right?
Q. Okay. And if someone wanted to come in here and say that there's no way he would have ever
done 50 shows, would you disagree with that?
Q. Now, in your 40 years in your career, other than this situation, have you ever had an assistant
producer tell you that she feared that an artist would die within weeks before you were scheduled to
leave for a concert series?
Q. Alif Sankey is someone that you trust and believe?
Q. Alif Sankey had some serious concerns about Michael's health that she brought to your attention,
Q. And have you ever had a situation where someone came to you and was concerned that an artist
would die when getting ready for a concert, and they actually did die?
Q. Now I want to ask you a little bit about Michael's physical condition. You told us last time that you
saw him deteriorating And declining over time; is that right?
A. Yes. I don't know if those were my words; but yes, he did change over time.
Q. Okay. And I showed you that email that Bugzee Hougdahl wrote, "in the last eight weeks, I've
seen him deteriorate in front of my eyes." do you remember that?
Q. And you agreed with that, correct?
Ms. Stebbins: Objection; misstates the testimony.
Mr. Panish: Do you want me to put it up?
Judge: Overruled. Just let me caution you, Mr. Ortega, if there's an objection, don't give an answer
until I'm able to rule on the objection. Okay?
The witness: Okay.
Judge: But you may answer this question.
The witness: One more time, please, Mr. Panish?
Mr. Panish: Mr. Boyle is telling me to speed it up.
Q. Now, Michael, as far as you knew, dealt with him -- even when he was in pain, he would do the
best he could to give the best performance?
A. I would think so, yes.
Q. And you told us about Munich and how he was hurt and kept performing?
Q. And later went to the hospital and had a problem?
Q. Now, was he a perfectionist, Michael?
A. I think if -- if anyone ever was, that would be something that people would have called him. I
don't think he ever identified himself as a perfectionist; but I think most of us have never seen anyone
work as hard to accomplish anything like -- in the way that Michael worked.
Q. Okay. Fair enough. I want to show you first -- I want to identify demonstrative exhibit 1064-1 and
2. I'll show you that on your screen, sir, before we put it up. And you were working with Travis Payne,
Alif Sankey, Karen Faye, among others, correct?
Mr. Panish: All right. Can I put that up, counsel?
Ms. Stebbins: I would object that there's no foundation with this witness for a lot of these quotes,
and that it's taking them out of context. But other than that --
Mr. Panish: It's all trial testimony, just like they did.
Judge: Well, did you show this to defense counsel?
Mr. Panish: Yes, I did.
Mr. Putnam: Just now.
Ms. Stebbins: We got it as we were coming in, and my objection is just that there's not a foundation
with this witness.
Mr. Panish: I met the agreement, your honor, what we're supposed to do.
Judge: And all of this is testimony?
Mr. Panish: Page and line of the trial where they said it.
Ms. Stebbins: It's paraphrasing of trial testimony, your honor. I'm not disputing that. It's out of
context, no foundation for this witness.
Mr. Panish: I'm going to ask him if this was consistent with what he saw when he was observing Mr.
Jackson with these other three people that were working on the show. There's no dispute about this
Judge: If he saw some of these things.
Mr. Panish: Right. If he saw all these things.
Judge: Okay. You may.
Mr. Panish: So let's start with the first, 1064, dash, 1. Put that up.
Q. Travis Payne, you worked with Travis on -- you told us multiple occasions, high respect for him,
good at what he does, right?
Q. Now, did you think Michael, at the time of this, was too thin and not eating enough?
Q. Were you concerned about his sudden weight change affecting his physical state?
A. I was concerned about it, yes.
Q. Were you concerned that he was fatigued and lethargic during rehearsals?
Q. Okay. Alif. Were you -- did Alif express to you her concerns in the end of May? And when I say
"Alif," I mean Sankey.
A. Again, I don't think it was my when our concerns started to, you know, arise; but Alif did express
Q. Okay. Did she -- did she cry?
Q. Because Michael wasn't looking good and talking to god? God was talking to him, actually.
A. I don't know about that.
Q. Okay. Did she tell you that Michael was dying and needs to be put in a hospital?
Q. Ms. Faye, did she send you -- or did she tell you that she believed Michael was dying -- there was
a risk -- I'm sorry -- of M.J. Dying?
A. I don't recall that. I know that she was extremely concerned about him, though.
Q. Okay. Michael seemed paranoid at times, did he not, sir?
A. On the -- yeah, a couple of times, and especially on the 19th.
Q. Okay. And then Michael bush, that was one of the -- you gave a word for his job. I forgot.
"clothier"? He had a name.
A. He was his dresser and one of the costume designers.
Q. And did you discuss with him Michael's physical condition?
A. No, I didn't discuss it with him; but I'd heard through Travis during a later costume fitting that
Michael had lost more weight.
Mr. Panish: Okay. Let's go to -- put up for counsel only the next page, and the witness, but don't put
it up for the jury yet.
Ms. Stebbins: Your honor, I just raise the same objections here. Particularly the quote from Mr.
Bearden is out of context and inconsistent with Mr. Payne's testimony about it.
Judge: Okay. It's inconsistent with Mr. Payne as in --
Ms. Stebbins: As in he said that Mr. Jackson had never done that before in his entire career, so that
wasn't a comment on Mr. Jackson's health.
Mr. Panish: It's an email. I'll put up the emails if you want to. I'm just trying to cut through.
Judge: Are you going to do the same thing, just ask him --
Mr. Panish: Right. These are emails that he received. I don't want to go through all that exercise, but
I will if they're objecting and making me do that. I'm trying to speed it up here.
Judge: Okay. Overruled.
Mr. Panish: All right. Let's put this up. Okay. This is Mr. Hougdahl, that email that I asked you
about, "I have watched him deteriorate in front of my eyes over the last eight weeks."
Q. Do you remember that email?
Q. Okay. You had also watched Michael deteriorate, correct?
Q. Mr. Payne -- Mr. Bearden. You said "Payne." I'm sorry. "M.J. Not in shape enough yet to sing this
stuff live and dance at the same time." you remember that email, right?
Q. And Mr. Bearden was talking not only about Michael's health but his vocal cords?
A. He was talking about his vocal strength.
Q. Right. Okay. But dancing doesn't have anything to do with vocal strength, does it?
Q. Now, then --
A. In this context, sir. I'm just -- what he's saying here is he wasn't in shape enough to sing full out
and dance full out at this stage, which was true, and I agree.
Q. And these symptoms -- take that down. -- that I've been showing you, this wasn't something that
just showed up, was it?
Q. It was something that occurred over time?
Q. And during the time of Michael's decline, it was your understanding that Dr. Murray was taking
care of him, right?
A. I would have
assumed that Dr. Murray was taking care of him, having been introduced to him as his doctor.
Q. But you told us, I think -- or did you know that Mr. Randy Phillips was in London in march of
2009 with Mr. Jackson for the press conference?
Q. And did you tell us that Mr. Phillips didn't relay to you any -- any concerns, if any, in London
about Mr. Jackson's physical or emotional --
Q. -- condition?
Q. Now, you told us that's something you would have liked to have known.
Q. Now, in addition to Mr. Payne, Ms. Walker -- were you aware that Ms. Walker was also concerned
about Mr. Jackson missing rehearsals and being groggy in april and may?
Ms. Stebbins: Objection; misstates the testimony.
Mr. Panish: Let's put it up.
Judge: Is this Stacy Walker, the choreographer?
Mr. Panish: I'm going to put up the testimony. Page 3587, page 6 to 20. Let's start with that. Put it
up. This is what she testified to at the trial.
Ms. Stebbins: This refers to the forum, which was in June, your honor.
Mr. Panish: We have the next part. Show the next part, 3638, 17 to 28. Let's put it up for you. I'm
just going to show it to you before we put it up.
Ms. Stebbins: Again, your honor, this section says nothing about missing rehearsals.
Q. Let me ask you, was Mr. Jackson -- you told us as of mid-June he wasn't coming at all, right?
A. He missed a whole chunk, period of time, yes.
Q. In fact, you hadn't seen him for a long -- for a period of time before you saw him on the 19th,
A. As I recall and now remember, yes.
Q. Several weeks?
Ms. Stebbins: Objection; misstates the testimony.
The witness: I remember -- overruled meaning answer the question? I'm sorry. I'm getting tired.
Judge: If that was correct, yes.
The witness: Yeah, I don't know how many actual days, sir; but there was a period of time that I
remembered him not being there, yes.
Mr. Panish: Well, the 19th -- you said he wasn't coming to practice at all before that, right?
Q. And it was all the way back in may he was missing practices, too, right?
A. Not as many. It was -- I'm talking about -- if we're talking about the consistent period where he
was absent, that was in June.
Q. Well, in June, he didn't show at all?
A. That's correct.
Q. Okay. But before that, he was missing rehearsals that were concerning you in may, wasn't he, sir?
A. I'm not certain. I'd have to see that.
Q. Okay. Well, let's find it for you here.
Q. Rehearsal. That would be page 9944, line 26 to 28. Let's put it up. That's the trial testimony, your
testimony. You can just put it up on the screen, expedite this. Okay. We've got to go to the next line, the
next page. It's the wrong page. Hold on. I'm sorry. I'm getting tired, too. Is it true that Michael was
missing a number of rehearsals between mid April and June 19th, sir?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. And you were concerned about that, right?
Q. And how many days before June 19th had it been for -- since you'd even seen him?
A. I would say probably, you know, between six and eight.
Q. So then you're saying --
A. Maybe more. Maybe more.
Q. It could have been up to two weeks?
A. It could have been.
Q. So eight days would be a week and a day. So 14 to six? What would be your best estimate?
A. I would say somewhere between six and eight would be more likely.
Q. But when you saw him on the 19th, you were really concerned?
Q. And that wasn't something that -- strike that question. And before that, others were concerned? Ms.
Faye, Travis, Stacy, James Phares, those people were all concerned before June 19, they expressed their
concern to you, correct?
Ms. Stebbins: Objection; misstates the testimony about being concerned before June 19.
Judge: Overruled. You can answer if that's true or not.
The witness: Yes.
Mr. Panish: And, in fact, it was fairly obvious that he was having physical problems, wasn't it?
A. I don't -- I don't know if you'd call it physical problems, but I would say it was fairly obvious that
he was not moving forward into the rehearsals with the sort of tempo --
Q. Well, are you telling me, then, that it wasn't -- it wasn't obvious -- fairly obvious that he was not
looking good, sir?
A. No, I didn't say that. You asked me -- I didn't say that it wasn't fairly obvious that he wasn't
looking good, it was --
Q. Well, was it?
Ms. Stebbins: Again, your honor, I ask that the witness be allowed to finish the question. He's been
interrupted twice now.
Judge: Let him finish.
Ms. Stebbins: This is direct examination.
Mr. Panish: You can answer.
Judge: Well, even in cross, he shouldn't interrupt the answer. It doesn't matter. But did you finish?
The witness: I need to hear this again.
Mr. Panish: Okay. You know what? Let me just put up the testimony, see if it refreshes your
recollection, sir. That's at page 1008 -- when I say "testimony," that's what you said last time you were
here. And that's 10008 through -- that's line 25 through line 2.
Judge: If we're refreshing, just show it to him.
Mr. Panish: Right. I'm just showing it to Mr. Ortega. And you can take a look at it, Mr. Ortega.
The witness: Lines again, Mr. Panish?
Mr. Panish: Well, I mean, you can read the whole page if you want. It's all -- it all concerns it. Go all
the way up about Travis and -- I won't read it. But just take your time, read that page and on to the next
Ms. Stebbins: I think we may have the wrong page. Because Mr. Panish said 10008, and this is
Mr. Panish: Okay. 10008. Thank you.
The witness: I've read this page, sir.
Mr. Panish: Okay.
Q. Does that refresh your recollection that others, including Travis, Karen Faye, Alif, Ms. Walker,
James Phares, were concerned about Michael's physical condition that was fairly obvious?
Q. Thank you. Now, as of June 14th, sir -- are you with me? June 14th?
Q. Michael missed rehearsal, and did you have serious condition -- concerns about his physical
condition at that time, June 14th?
Ms. Stebbins: I'll object, vague as to "physical condition."
The witness: I would say yes.
Mr. Panish: Okay.
Q. And, in fact, sir, as of that time, you were all under pressure, weren't you?
Q. And these conditions that you were observing, they were similar to the condition you saw Mr.
Jackson in at that H.B.O. Event where he went down and went to the hospital, correct?
A. No, I -- I think -- the 19th I think was the connection that we discussed about there, Mr. Panish.
Q. So you're saying that the only day that was similar was the 19th; is that right?
A. I think that what we said was the last time that we had seen Michael in this sort of kind of a state.
His rehearsal issues didn't remind me of H.B.O.
Q. But he went to the hospital at that time, and he didn't die, right?
Q. Sir, did you tell anyone that, "you should have taken Michael Jackson to the hospital"?
A. Did I tell anyone?
A. That I should have?
Q. No; that he should have been taken -- let me rephrase the question. Did you tell anyone that
Michael Jackson should have been taken to the hospital?
A. I might have.
Q. And did you say that after Mr. Jackson died, that he should have been taken to the hospital?
A. No. I think I probably would have said it sooner than that.
Q. Okay. So that would have been after the 19th sometime, you would have said Michael should go
to the hospital to be checked out?
Q. And, in fact, sir, you felt, and correct me if I'm wrong, that a different physician other than Dr.
Murray should have been brought in -- you suggested to bring in someone else to check out Michael,
Q. Because you thought that would be a responsible thing to suggest to Mr. Phillips?
Q. And you talked about responsibility when counsel was questioning you. Do you remember that?
Q. And certainly in the condition that Michael was in, you felt it would have been responsible to
bring in another physician to examine him because you didn't feel Conrad Murray was doing a very
good job, correct?
Ms. Stebbins: Objection; vague as to time as to when Mr. Ortega felt this.
Mr. Panish: You can answer, sir.
The witness: I don't think that that's why I wanted to -- why I suggested bringing in another doctor.
Q. Well, first of all, you didn't think Conrad Murray was doing a good job, did you?
Q. Okay. And you thought that because of Michael's decline, and how concerned you were, that
another physician should be brought in, you suggested that, a professional?
Q. To examine Mr. Jackson?
Q. And you felt that would have been a responsible thing to do?
Q. And you also felt, when you talk about personal -- I think you were talking about responsibility of
Q. Is that right?
Q. And you also felt that it was Mr. Payne, the choreographer's professional responsibility to report to
you problems with health with a dancer like Mr. Jackson?
Q. And you felt it was your responsibility to report these concerns you had to AEG Live, to the
higher-ups at AEG Live, correct?
Q. And when you're talking responsibility here, you're not giving us a legal definition, you're giving
us Kenny Ortega's personal views, right?
Q. And you thought that Mr. Jackson was irresponsible, right? Did you think that Mr. Jackson was
A. It was -- it seemed to me that he was in trouble.
Q. Okay. But -- sure. But did you know how Mr. Jackson's physical state of -- strike that. His state of
mind, decision making, did you know how it had been affected, if at all, at the point in time?
A. It hadn't been affected until -- Michael was very clear, bold, strong in his ideas and what he
wanted, you know, all through the beginning of the process.
Q. But eventually he started to decline, didn't he?
A. Eventually he started to decline and disappear.
Q. And then when he came back, you were really worried about him?
Q. And that's when you made the suggestion about getting someone outside of Murray to examine
him, and that would be responsible, right?
A. Yeah, a -- a specialist.
Q. And as far as concert promoters and producers, they have responsibilities just like everybody else,
Q. And you would expect a responsible producer/promoter to not place a doctor in a situation where
they would be in a conflict of interest with their patient, correct?
Ms. Stebbins: Objection; lacks foundation, calls for
A. Legal conclusion.
Mr. Panish: They asked these same exact questions.
Judge: You were asking responsibility questions. Overruled.
The witness: Yes.
Q. And you would expect a responsible concert promoter and producer to make sure that anyone
they're introducing, like a physician, was fit and competent, correct?
Ms. Bina: Objection; lacks foundation. There's no evidence that AEG Live introduced a physician in
Mr. Panish: Let me rephrase the question.
Q. I want you to assume, sir, that AEG Live hired Dr. Murray. That's just an assumption. Okay? Are
you with me?
Judge: That's fine. You can do that.
Mr. Panish: Are you with me, doctor -- Mr. Ortega? Because you've been given responsibility, so I
want to follow up on what they asked you. Okay? So I want you to assume that AEG Live hired Dr.
Q. Would you expect them to check out and make sure they hired a fit and competent doctor?
Ms. Stebbins: Lacks foundation as to whether a choreographer director would know what a promoter
should do in a situation where they're hiring a doctor, and calls for a conclusion on the ultimate issue.
Mr. Panish: They asked all these questions.
Mr. Panish: The question once more. I'm sorry. I'm trying to have that conversation. Let me try it
Q. A responsible promoter/producer, assuming they hired a physician, you'd expect them to hire
someone that's fit and competent, right?
Q. You expect them to check them out and make sure that they can do the job and there's not any
conflict or anything like that, correct?
Q. Okay. As far as your opinion, that would be responsible, correct?
Judge: This is the Kenny Ortega opinion, not the legal --
Mr. Panish: Not legal. I'm only talking about your lay opinion as Kenny Ortega.
Q. Just like it would be irresponsible, assuming they hired someone, not to check them out to see if
they're fit and competent and not to place them in a conflict-of-interest situation, correct?
Ms. Stebbins: I'm going to raise all the same objections, and also vague as to "check them out." are
we talking about checking to see if they're licensed or conducting a financial background check, et
cetera? This is not something that I think there's any foundation for this witness to be able to answer.
Mr. Panish: Do you remember the question? That's why they're objecting. All right. Let me try it
again. Let me read it.
The witness: Well, that's two of us, then. I feel less guilty.
Mr. Panish: My memory is not getting better like yours, I'll tell you. I've got to look at this.
Q. Okay. Now we're asking for Kenny Ortega's opinion, just like you've been giving us here today.
Q. Now -- okay. Would you expect Kenny Ortega -- strike that question. I want you to assume that
AEG Live hired Dr. Murray. Are you with me?
Q. Okay. Assuming that, would you expect them to have checked out the physician, that they were
competent and fit? Do you agree with that?
Q. All right. And that they would not introduce a physician in a conflict-of-interest situation, correct?
Q. Okay. Thank you. Now -- and it would be irresponsible not to do that, wouldn't it, sir?
Q. He's telling me to go to another -- it's tough. I'm sorry. Now, you were asked questions by Mr.
Putnam about pressure. Do you remember those questions, being under pressure?
A. I remember talking about that, that --
Q. All right. Now let's start with you were not with Michael Jackson all the time, were you?
Q. For example, on the 20th, when you went to the meeting at his home, you were only there 10 to 15
minutes before you were dismissed by Dr. Murray, correct?
A. Yeah. I recall it being about 10, 15 minutes.
Q. Your best estimate?
A. It could have been a little longer.
Q. It could have been shorter?
Q. All right. That's your best -- because at that time, you were upset?
Q. How he was treating you, Dr. Murray?
Q. Because you felt all you were doing was trying to do the best thing for Michael Jackson?
Q. And you were -- I think you said "accused." you said it was like an accusatory meeting? Is that the
term you used? I think you did, right?
Q. And Dr. Murray was telling you what rights you had, right?
Q. When somebody tells you you don't have the right to do something, does that pressure you a little
A. I don't -- it -- it hurt.
Q. Well, sir, you're the director. Some doctor is not supposed to tell you what to do, are they?
A. Well, he thought I was meddling, you know, and I just didn't -- couldn't believe that he would
think I was meddling rather than acting out of concern.
Q. Well, sir, doctors, do they get creative credit for shows like this?
Q. Okay. He was -- Dr. Murray wasn't involved in the creative part of the show, was he?
Q. You were involved in that, right?
Q. And when the rehearsals -- that was your domain, right?
Q. And Dr. Murray told you don't do that, you don't have a right to do what you felt was part of your
Q. And he thought you were meddling when you thought you were just trying to do your job?
A. More than do my job.
Q. Fair enough.
A. Look out for my friend.
Q. Look out and try to take some responsibility and help Mr. Jackson, right?
Q. And find out what was wrong?
Q. To help your friend?
Q. And you wanted to do whatever you could to make things right?
Q. And you got to that meeting, and you didn't feel like Dr. Murray had the same agenda that you did,
did you, sir?
A. We weren't of the same mind set.
Q. Okay. Let's use that. Dr. Murray certainly didn't have the same mind set you did, did he?
Q. And Mr. Phillips, he just sat there and never said one word when Mr. -- Dr. Murray was accusatory
towards you; isn't that right?
A. Not that I recall.
Q. Right. And Dr. Murray (sic) didn't jump up and say, "hey, hey. That's not right. Don't tell him what
his rights are, let him do his job --" he didn't do anything to step in when you were being hurt by Dr.
Murray, did he?
A. I defended myself.
Q. But Mr. Phillips, the C.E.O. Of the company, didn't do anything as he sat there, did he?
A. Not that I recall.
Q. And then when you were dismissed, you don't know how long they stayed, Dr. Murray, Mr.
Phillips and Mr. Jackson, do you?
Q. And you don't know what Mr. Phillips told Dr. Murray, whether he pressured him or didn't
pressure him, do you?
Q. And you don't know whether they were pressuring Michael to go to rehearsals, do you?
Q. And did you -- did you ever learn that Mr. Phillips was grabbing Dr. Murray at some point in time
in Michael's house by the arm, acting aggressively towards him?
A. I never heard that.
Q. And, sir, there's a lot of things that you don't know about what happened as to whether or not Dr.
Murray or Michael were pressured by AEG, correct?
Ms. Stebbins: Objection; vague as to "a lot of things that you don't know." I think the witness can't
know when he's not there. The question makes it sound like there's something bad happening. There's
no foundation for it.
Judge: Sustained. You should rephrase that.
Mr. Panish: Okay. Well, you left, you don't know what they were doing.
Q. Did you -- did you learn that Dr. Murray walked out of the meeting and said, "I can't take this shit
Ms. Stebbins: Objection; misstates --
Mr. Putnam: Misstates the testimony, your honor.
The witness: No.
Judge: Actually, I don't know if that foul language was used.
Mr. Panish: It was actually used in the testimony of Ms. Kai Chase.
Judge: I don't know if she used that word.
Mr. Panish: Yes, she did.
Judge: She used a bad word?
Mr. Panish: She did. It's not just me. I don't want to get in trouble here now.
Ms. Stebbins: But for a different meaning, your honor, at least based on the attendees.
Mr. Panish: Well, you know, sir, there was another -- actually -- a you know, if Michael ever heard
you talk like that, it would have been not appropriate. Am I right, Mrs. Jackson? We don't talk like that.
I'm just saying in respect -- in respect to who we're all here for, that's not a nice thing. That's not a nice
Q. This is what Dr. Murray said, not me.
A. Okay. No, I didn't hear any of that, no.
Q. Okay. Look, I'm sure Michael would be mad at me on several fronts here. But I'm just trying to do
the best I can, Mr. Ortega. All right?
A. I understand that. I know why you're here.
Q. At times, maybe -- anyway. All right. Let me move on. Now --
Judge: So the answer was no, you've never heard that that statement had been made?
The witness: That's correct, your honor.
Q. And you don't know whether AEG was pressuring Michael or Dr. Murray when you weren't
Mr. Panish: I'm trying to finish, your honor, so if I could just have a moment to -- I've got all these
notes, I can't read them, and -- I know I'm going to forget something. I should have sat down.
Q. Do you know what time Michael Jackson was supposed to be at rehearsal on the 18th?
A. I've seen emails, Mr. Panish; but I don't recall.
Q. You were upset that day, though, right?
A. I believe I was.
Q. And do you recall whether you told Karen Faye that Dr. Murray and Randy Phillips had held some
sort of intervention with Michael?
A. Do I recall having a conversation with Karen Faye where I told them that Dr. Murray and Randy
were having an intervention with Michael?
A. I don't recall that.
Q. You do recall, though -- or you did refer to the 6/20 meeting as an intervention? 6/20, I'm talking
A. The 6/20, I -- if I referred to it as an intervention -- I was invited to that meeting. I didn't call that
meeting, and I didn't title that meeting.
Q. Whether you --
A. It certainly wasn't an intervention when I was there.
Q. But from -- the last time you were here, did you testify you felt you would call it an intervention?
A. I don't recall saying that, sir; but you can put it in front of me.
Q. It's all right. Now, do you recall whether you ever told Karen Faye --
Ms. Stebbins: Your honor, I'm just going to object to the extent this is a backwards way of getting in
Mr. Panish: No, no. We had this discussion in chambers. If you want to go in there, we can do it
again; but the court instructed me to do it this way. I'll go in there and talk about it, but I don't want to
Judge: What was your question?
Ms. Stebbins: Your honor, my concern is there may be some inadmissible hearsay testimony that
comes in this way without it --
Mr. Panish: I'm asking him whether he made specific statements, that's all. If he says he doesn't
remember, or he didn't do it, then I have to take the next step.
Judge: Okay. To Karen Faye? Is that the last --
Mr. Panish: Yes.
Judge: Overruled. You may ask. It would be hearsay if Karen Faye repeated it. But go ahead.
Mr. Panish: Well, but then we get into the impeachment. But let me just ask the questions, and we'll
go from there. I think we already discussed this.
Q. Do you recall whether you told -- told Karen Faye that AEG was funding Michael's entire life
right now; his food, kids and everything?
Q. Okay. Do you recall whether you ever told Karen Faye that AEG has told Michael that they'll pull
the plug if he doesn't get it together?
A. Maybe in some capacity to that.
Q. Okay. How about did you ever tell Karen Faye that AEG had told Michael that if he doesn't do
this, he loses everything?
Q. Okay. Did you ever tell Karen Faye that any hand-holding of Michael had been removed?
A. Again, we may have had a conversation about something like that, sir; but those -- that wouldn't
have been the way I would have talked to Karen.
Q. Okay. Fair enough. Did you ever tell Karen Faye that Michael had to face his fears?
Q. Did you ever tell Alif Sankey that AEG was going to engage in tough love with Michael?
A. I don't know if I said it in that capacity, but I have used the word "tough love."
Q. Okay. Did you ever tell Alif Sankey that Michael needed to show up to rehearsals or the world
tour would be canceled?
A. I may have had a conversation with her where I -- where I said that that could be a possibility, yes.
Mr. Panish: For right now, if you don't get mad at me, I'm not going to ask you any more questions.
Is that all right?
The witness: It's perfectly fine, sir.
Mr. Panish: Okay. I may have them after Mr. Putnam; but for this time, I'm going to stop.
Mr. Putnam: Can I go to the bathroom first, your honor?
Ms. Stebbins: Why don't we just take the break a few minutes early, your honor?
Judge: All right. Ten-minute break.
Judge: Katherine Jackson versus AEG Live. You may be seated. And you may begin your recross.
Mr. Putnam: Thank you, your honor. Mr. Ortega, just a couple of quick things, if I may.
The witness: Yes, sir.
Recross-examination by Mr. Putnam:
Q. First, when you were testifying a moment ago, you said that you thought that the O2 was a test.
You were talking about the O2, and concerts for the O2.
A. A test?
Q. You said that that was a test.
A. I didn't mean to say that.
Q. You didn't mean that?
A. If I did say that, I have no idea -- I might have heard the question incorrectly.
Q. Okay. I will look back at it. I was going to ask you why you called it a test, and a test of what.
A. No. I thought of it as an event.
Q. Well, you were talking -- let me remind you what you were talking about at the time. You were
being asked questions about Mr. Jackson's popularity.
Q. And you said at one point, he had been one of the biggest names of all time. You were asked this
right after -- about Celine Dion, if you recall. And you said, well, at the time, he had been huge; and
you said -- they said what about now, and you said the 02 was a test. What did you mean -- do you
A. I don't, but I -- I think what I was trying to say was that Michael had not performed in ten years;
and that whether he would command the world as he once did, you know, was to be -- to be seen.
However, the -- the 50 shows that sold out at the 02 sure promised that he still had that drawing power.
Q. It was a very good sign -- right? -- that it should go well?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. But you hadn't yet seen how he would do around the world, correct?
A. No, sir.
Q. And did you have an understanding that people who were buying tickets to "This Is It" at the 02
were coming from around the world?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. It wasn't just people in the U.K., right?
Q. From all over the world coming to this?
A. It was a destination event.
Q. All right. Next was -- do you remember -- I'm not going to put it back up, but do you remember all
Q. And you were asked what you agreed with and didn't agree with. Do you remember that?
Q. Let me ask you a couple of questions about that. They showed you bugzee's email where he talked
about deteriorating over eight weeks. Do you remember that?
Q. Did you see Michael deteriorating over eight weeks?
A. I would not have used that as a way of describing, you know, how I -- what I saw. I wouldn't have
used the word "deteriorating."
Q. And, in fact, you clarified that in terms of a chunk of missed rehearsals, you thought it was
probably between six to eight days; is that correct?
A. To the best of my recollection.
Q. And --
A. Which the -- six to eight very important days.
Q. And, in fact, the week you were concerned about was the week of June 15th, correct?
A. Somewhere in there, I -- I thought it was around the 13th or 14th; but I think it's, yes, within that
period of time.
Q. And that was the lead-up to the 19th, you were concerned in that period of time, correct?
A. Yes, yes.
Q. Now, in terms of those various quotes you were shown, I'm going to ask you some questions. A
number, if not almost all of these, were made in reference to what happened on the 19th. Now, you
believe that Alif Sankey was concerned about Mr. Jackson on the 19th, right?
Q. And, in fact, when she cried and said god was talking to him -- I know you didn't -- you haven't
heard that god was talking to him; but her crying, that was on the 19th, right?
Q. And you were concerned on the 19th, as well, yes?
Q. And Ms. Faye was concerned on the 19th?
Q. And Travis Payne was concerned on the 19th?
Q. The people that were there on the 19th, would you say they would have to be concerned if they
saw him on the 19th?
Q. Did Alif Sankey tell you she was concerned on the 23rd?
Q. And that was when Mr. Jackson came back, right?
Q. And did she come up and say, "Hey, I'm still worried"?
Q. What about Karen Faye? Did she come up and let you know that she was still worried on the
Q. What about Travis Payne?
Q. Did anybody come up on the 23rd, four days later, and tell you they were still concerned?
Q. What about on the 24th?
Q. So on the 19th, people were certainly concerned, right?
Q. But do you know anybody who was concerned on the 23rd?
A. Not that I can recall.
Q. What about the 24th, sir?
A. Not that I can recall.
Q. Now, you just finished working on the rolling stones tour, correct?
Q. So I have a question for you. You were asked a number of questions about your experience with
doctors on tour, correct?
Q. You don't usually go out on the tour, though, do you? You're only there for the first couple of days?
A. That's correct.
Q. So, for example, if Mr. Jackson had doctors with him during the "Dangerous" tour, would that be
news to you?
Q. Did you know that before?
A. I don't -- no.
Q. But you worked on that tour, right?
Q. Okay. And let me ask you, the Rolling Stones, do they have doctors with them on the tour?
A. Not that I know of.
Q. You don't know, correct?
Q. Now, would it surprise you to learn that there's been testimony in this courtroom that the Rolling
Stones have doctors with them right now on tour?
Mr. Boyle: No foundation.
The witness: No.
Mr. Putnam: It wouldn't surprise you?
Q. You just don't know it, correct?
Q. So when you said with all those questions about in your experience, all you were saying is it's not
something you've experienced before, correct?
Q. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen?
Q. And it doesn't mean it doesn't happen on the very tours that you've worked on, correct, sir?
Q. It's just not something you've ever dealt with?
Q. Okay. Have you ever been to a venue where there was a doctor on call?
Q. Is that something you've experienced before?
Q. You were asked a number of questions about have you ever worked on a tour where the following
occurred. I'm going to ask you a couple of those. Okay? Have you ever worked on a tour where an
artist was $400 million in debt?
A. Not that I recall.
Q. I mean, have you ever been on any tour like that ever before?
Mr. Boyle: Objection; assumes facts not in evidence. I think it was an assumption. If it wasn't an
assumption, then no evidence.
Judge: Why don't you --
Mr. Putnam: I'm asking if he's ever worked on a tour where an artist was $4 million in debt -- 400
Mr. Boyle: Object; foundation as to how he would know the financial status of the artist.
Mr. Panish: Any artist.
Judge: Overruled on that ground. But who is the person who testified that there was such debt?
Mr. Panish: No one.
Mr. Putnam: I'm not saying there won't be somebody. I'm asking if he's ever --
Judge: Okay. So assume.
Mr. Putnam: Okay. Assume -- but I wasn't even saying as to this tour. I'm asking if he has ever
worked on a tour where an artist was $400 million in debt.
Mr. Boyle: No foundation that he would know the artist's financial status.
Q. Have you ever, to your knowledge?
A. Not to my knowledge.
Q. To your knowledge, have you ever worked on
A. Tour where the artist couldn't afford his daily expenses?
Mr. Boyle: Same objections.
The witness: I don't believe so.
Mr. Putnam: Have you ever worked on a tour where a promoter and producer was advancing all of
an artist's daily expenses?
A. That's possible. I just wouldn't know.
Q. Are you aware of whether you've ever worked on a tour where the promoter or producer was --
strike that. Have you ever worked on a tour where an artist wasn't able to pay his own personal
A. I -- I -- I don't think so. I mean -- that's like a -- an assumption on my part. I mean, I wouldn't
Q. And that's why I asked, sir. Because you were asked a number of things -- have you ever worked
on a tour where a doctor did this or a promoter did that, so I'm asking the same type of thing. Because
you don't know, correct?
Q. The next question is, you testified last time that you were introduced to Dr. Conrad Murray,
Q. Who introduced you?
Q. So AEG Live didn't introduce you to Dr. Conrad Murray, correct?
Q. And when Mr. Jackson introduced you, what did he say?
A. "This is my doctor."
Q. Did a time ever -- you talked about the idea a moment ago about thinking and recommending that
there be another physician to come in and -- and look at Mr. Jackson, correct?
Q. And that was in an email, correct?
Q. Did you tell that to Mr. Jackson?
Q. Did you ever say to him, "I think you need a different doctor"?
Q. Did you tell Mr. Jackson ever that you had concerns about Dr. Conrad Murray?
Q. Did you ever tell him that you had concerns about his personal physician?
Q. Why not, sir?
A. I didn't get into that part of his world.
Q. And do you have any reason to believe that you could have made Mr. Jackson see a doctor he
didn't want to see?
Mr. Panish: Speculation.
Mr. Putnam: Do you have any reason to believe that Randy Phillips could have?
A. Not necessarily.
Q. You were asked to assume a number of things. I'm going to ask you to assume that Mr. Jackson
requested that Dr. Conrad Murray, his physician of several years, be brought on the tour. Would you
assume that for me?
Q. And would you also assume for me that AEG Live confirmed that Dr. Conrad Murray was licensed
in four states and confirmed that he had never been disciplined. Assume that for a moment. Okay?
Q. If those things were true, would you then believe that Dr. Conrad Murray was a fit and competent
Mr. Panish: Well, that's different than my question.
Mr. Putnam: How is that different, your honor?
Mr. Panish: Can I finish my objection, please? I was asking him about responsibility. I didn't ask him
whether Conrad Murray was fit or competent. He doesn't know that.
Judge: You couched it in terms of responsibility, both of you have been couching. You could ask it,
but not with that phrasing.
Mr. Panish: Right. He doesn't know if Dr. Murray -- anyway.
Mr. Putnam: Let me ask it differently, sir.
Q. Do you remember you got that email from Randy Phillips that says "We check everybody out"?
Q. Do you remember being asked about that?
Q. If you were to assume for a moment that Mr. Phillips had been told that they checked and Dr.
Conrad Murray was licensed in four states, and they checked, and it didn't appear that he'd ever been
disciplined -- if you can assume that was true, would that be a basis in your mind for saying that "We
have checked him out"?
Mr. Panish: Again, same objection. No foundation, beyond the scope. I didn't bring that email up.
He's also not qualified.
Mr. Putnam: You asked him about --
Mr. Panish: No, I didn't -- excuse me. Can I finish? About what -- now he's asking is that checking
someone out. I didn't even bring that up. It's beyond the scope.
Judge: I think the questions were asked in the context of responsibility. I can think in my own mind
of a question that you could rephrase.
Mr. Panish: You wouldn't help me.
Mr. Putnam: Do you think it would be responsible?
Mr. Panish: You wouldn't help me when I asked.
Judge: All right. I'm just saying there is a question.
Mr. Panish: Maybe.
Mr. Putnam: Do you think it would have been responsible for AEG Live to have gone and checked
to see if Dr. Conrad Murray was, in fact, licensed in four states? Would that be the responsible thing for
them to have done?
Q. And would it have been a responsible thing for them to check to see whether or not he'd been
Q. And if they did those things, that would be a responsible thing for them to do if they were hiring
Dr. Conrad Murray, correct? That was the hypothetical, if they were hiring him.
Q. But if they weren't hiring Dr. Conrad Murray, would that responsibility have been above and
beyond anything they would have needed to do in your mind?
Mr. Panish: It's beyond --
Mr. Boyle: Calls for expert opinion.
Mr. Panish: That's a different question.
Mr. Putnam: Yes, it is.
Mr. Panish: It sure is. It's speculation, foundation.
Judge: I'm trying to think if there's a way to couch it in terms of responsibility.
Mr. Panish: That's not. It's an expert opinion as to -- as to --
Mr. Putnam: It's not an expert opinion, your honor.
Mr. Panish: Excuse me. God. Can I -- they've been making objections the whole time I was
questioning. I want to make one. Can I -- can I just get it out?
Judge: I'm listening.
Mr. Panish: Okay. It calls for an expert human resources opinion as to what their obligations would
Ms. Stebbins: Your honor --
Mr. Panish: He's asked --
Ms. Stebbins: I thought you were done.
Mr. Panish: I'm sorry, your honor. It's hard when they keep -- he asked whether it was -- he thought
in his -- Kenny Ortega's mind, responsible or not. That's okay. He's done that. But now he's trying to
take it to the expert level of human resources, beyond what their obligations were and such. That would
Ms. Stebbins: Your honor, on redirect, Mr. Panish asked whether a responsible promoter would have
checked out a fit and competent doctor. I don't see how that -- how that question is any different than
Mr. Panish: It's completely different.
Judge: Re-read the question.
(the question was read)
Mr. Putnam: That's terrible. Let me try that again.
Q. So, sir, we've been talking about a hypothetical where AEG Live was hiring Dr. Conrad Murray;
and I asked you if you thought it would have been responsible for them in that context to have gone and
checked to see whether Dr. Conrad Murray was licensed in four states, and whether it would have been
responsible for them to have gone and checked to see if he'd been disciplined. And a followup to that I
wanted to ask, but if they weren't hiring Dr. Conrad Murray, and they had nonetheless checked to see
whether Dr. Conrad Murray was licensed in four states, and had nonetheless checked to see whether he
had been disciplined, is that something that you think would be beyond what you would expect a
responsible promoter to do?
Mr. Panish: I didn't say anything yet.
The witness: I think that would have been responsible enough.
Mr. Putnam: You think it would have been the responsible thing?
Q. And going beyond that, sir, let me ask you
A. Question. Did you ever have a conversation with Randy Phillips about his concerns when Michael
said to him that he wanted to bring his doctor with him on tour?
Mr. Panish: That would be hearsay, what Randy Phillips said.
Mr. Putnam: Did you ever have a conversation with him on those concerns?
Mr. Panish: It's the same objection. It's hearsay, Randy Phillips' conversation with him.
The witness: Yes.
Mr. Putnam: And did you express in that conversation any concern that you had?
Q. Did Mr. Phillips ever tell you that he wanted Michael Jackson to bring Dr. Conrad Murray with
Q. Did he ever tell you that he introduced Dr. Conrad Murray to Michael Jackson?
Mr. Panish: Your honor, excuse me. Whatever Mr. Phillips is saying to him is hearsay.
Judge: It is.
Mr. Panish: I've been trying to object to that, and he keeps asking the questions. They're all hearsay,
and he knows that.
Judge: Not all of them. Some of them call for yes and no. But yes, this one is hearsay.
Mr. Putnam: I have no further questions, your honor.
Mr. Panish: I'll be quick. False hope, right? Mr. Boyle just -- I've got to be quick. Maybe I shouldn't
have said that. All right.
Further redirect examination by Mr. Panish:
Q. Mr. Ortega --
A. Yes, sir?
Q. -- let's talk about Conrad Murray and responsible, responsibility. Now, sir, would it be responsible
in your mind, assuming someone hired a doctor, to have had a concern and not -- strike that. Would it
have been responsible to place a doctor in a conflict of interest if you hired a doctor for an artist?
Would that have been responsible?
Ms. Stebbins: Objection; lacks foundation as to "Conflict of interest."
The witness: In my opinion, no.
Mr. Panish: Would it have been responsible in Kenny Ortega's opinion to have a doctor leave his
practices, receive 150,000 a month, and have his contract canceled at any time when that physician was
financially destitute, had his house being foreclosed, couldn't pay for his office, had five back child
support debts, and such?
Ms. Stebbins: Your honor, I'm going to object to that as lacks foundation as to this witness and calls
for a conclusion on the ultimate issues in the case.
Mr. Panish: I'm asking about responsibility.
Ms. Stebbins: There's like -- also compound. There's about 16 things in here.
Mr. Panish: They just asked it.
The witness: Overruled?
Judge: Yes. You may answer.
Mr. Panish: I know you're going to tell me --
The witness: That would be very strange indeed.
Q. Totally irresponsible, right?
Mr. Panish: That's all I've got. Thanks.
Further recross-examination by Mr. Putnam:
Q. You indicated, sir, that it would be a totally irresponsible thing to do. Do you think that a doctor's
debt has any bearing on his or her competence to be a doctor?
Mr. Panish: Objection; he can't --
Mr. Putnam: I was --
Mr. Panish: Excuse me. Can I get the objection out? He cannot testify as to whether somebody was
competent or not as a physician and what factors would go into that. So that would be calling for
speculation, no foundation, expert testimony.
Judge: Are we couching this in terms of responsibility?
Mr. Putnam: Yes, I said responsibility. Strike it, let me ask it differently, your honor.
Q. Do you think it's a responsible thing for a person to look into whether or not a doctor is in debt
before they hire him?
A. I wouldn't think it would be something that would be the norm.
Q. Would you think -- and it's a little personal. Pardon me. Would it be a responsible thing, do you
think, for a studio to look into whether Kenny Ortega has debt before hiring him to be a director?
A. I've been there and they've hired me.
Q. Should they have looked and not hired you?
A. I'm grateful that they didn't.
Q. I understand that. But do you think that whether or not you're in debt would have any bearing on
whether or not they should -- it would have been the responsible thing for them to look into that?
A. I don't think so.
Q. And why not, sir?
A. Being in debt doesn't change the level of your talent, your gift, your ability.
Mr. Putnam: Thank you, sir.
Further redirect examination by Mr. Panish:
Q. Do you have access to a prescription pad?
A. Do I have access a prescription pad?
Q. Do you give medical care to people at the studio?
Q. Do you -- have you ever been in a conflict of interest where you were in serious debt and if you
didn't do whatever was asked of you, that you would lose the job and everything you had would be
Ms. Stebbins: Objection; vague.
Mr. Panish: And -- let me rephrase it.
Q. Have you ever been in a position where you were providing medical care to a patient where you
were in serious debt and then if you didn't do what you were told to do, it would all be over for you?
A. Well, I'm not a doctor, so I would have never been in that situation.
Mr. Panish: Exactly. Thank you.
Judge: All joining in on the fun.
Mr. Putnam: Good times, your honor.
Further recross-examination by Mr. Putnam:
Q. If someone came to you and said that they wanted to hire their personal doctor that they had for
the last three years, nonetheless would it have been a responsible thing for you to have gone to check as
to whether or not that doctor was in debt?
Mr. Panish: It's beyond the scope.
The witness: Again, I just don't think that that would be something that I personally would think to
Mr. Putnam: Thank you.
Further redirect examination by Mr. Panish:
Q. You would rely on the experts in determining whether a doctor was in a conflict of interest and
that shouldn't be done, correct?
A. It's not my expertise.
Ms. Stebbins: Objection; vague.
Mr. Panish: You would rely on a physician who is an expert in sports medicine ethics rather than
yourself to make that determination; is that a fair statement?
Ms. Stebbins: Objection; improper hypothetical, attempting to vouch for their expert through a lay
witness who has no idea what he's talking -- what Mr. Panish is talking about.
Mr. Panish: Who a --
Ms. Stebbins: Mr. Ortega has no idea what Mr. Panish is talking about when he's talking about an
expert in sports ethics medicine. I think we've gone a bit far beyond the pale here.
Mr. Panish: He brought it up.
Mr. Panish: Mr. Ortega, are you from Palo Alto?
A. I am.
Q. Is there a medical school there?
A. There is.
Q. What is that called?
Q. Is that a good medical school, to your knowledge?
Q. Is that a top school in the country?
A. I believe it's one of the top medical schools in the country.
Q. Okay. So would you, sir, rely on Kenny Ortega, director choreographer extraordinaire, or a
physician from Stanford University who is in charge of medicine for sports medicine to analyze his
conflicts to determine what should be done about hiring a Physician for an artist?
A. I would certainly put that in the hands of a sports doctor professional than put it in the hands of a
Mr. Panish: Thank you, sir.
Judge: Anything further?
Mr. Putnam: I didn't even understand it, so no.
Mr. Panish: I bet you didn't.
Judge: I think you can step down.
The witness: Really?
Judge: I think so. Thank you.
The witness: Thank you, your honor. Thank you, Mr. Panish. Thank you. Thank you, ladies and
Judge: Actually, we finished a little earlier than I thought. Do we have any depositions to play?
Ms. Stebbins: We had some sent over, your honor, so we could play -- we can begin Randy Jackson's
deposition testimony. Where we're at, I think, in terms of tomorrow afternoon, we'd probably have time
to play both the depositions, so I don't know whether we need to do that today or not, but we can start
Mr. Panish: I think we're going to be able to do Ms. Jorrie in the morning and then do depos -- it's
hot in here.
I know it's not my job, but if we took a vote, I'm not -- I know it's not my job, your honor. I'm sorry.
Judge: Well, you know, I don't know. They've been here for months and months.
Ms. Stebbins: Your honor, we can play a half hour of videotaped deposition.
Judge: Let me ask, do you want to go home or do you want to -- it's a little warm. Okay. Because
tomorrow there's Ms. Jorrie and then --
Ms. Stebbins: And then two video depositions in the afternoon, your honor.
Judge: And that will take all day, so I can let you go home early today, but it will be a full day
tomorrow. I know I've told you already the trial is prolonged, and then to let you go home early, I don't
want you mad at me. Then I'll see you tomorrow. Okay. 9:30 tomorrow morning.
(The following proceedings were held in open court, outside the presence of the jurors):
Judge: I guess Ms. Jorrie tomorrow; and then once we're done with her, we'll start with your depos.
Mr. Panish: She's got to leave at noon.
Judge: And then I can work on your Gordon depo, and then -- and Adams.
Ms. Stebbins: That would be wonderful. And ideally we could kind of get all of those finalized and
have them ready to go whenever.
Judge: Are they similar?
Ms. Stebbins: They're all similar to Dr. Slavit in that they're short and there's not nearly as many
objections. We're trying to get all the video in place so if we end up with a half hour here or there, we
can launch it.
Judge: Fill it. Thank you.
Mr. Boyle: Thank you, your honor.
(Court adjourned to Friday, August 9, 2013, at 9:30 am)