This action might not be possible to undo. Are you sure you want to continue?
Kortney Ryan Ziegler Nia: I noticed the expression “intellectual hazing” in your piece and I had never seen that before. Could you talk a little bit about. . . [laughter] what the fuck is intellectual hazing? Kortney: I think it’s when professors from, you know, from a different generation, who have struggled to get to where they are, do the same thing to their “mentees” or whatever, because I think, it’s like the phrase that we hear a lot, “hurt people hurt people,” and I think there are a lot of hurt professors. And I think the academy, the way it’s structured, and because we are researchers, and we’re supposed to have an objective subject position, we’re not allowed to really talk about how we’re hurting. We’re never allowed to talk about how we feel. And when we do, we have to put a label on it, right? Autoethnography. It has to become some other type of research. It just can’t become, like, “I hurt today.” or “My colleague said something that was really fucking racist.” – and I want to express that, but it has to be very politicized, it has to be theorized, it can’t just be likeNia: “I theorize that you’re fucking racist?” Kortney: Exactly, you become so – this is the perfect academic term – dehumanized in a way, as an intellectual living and working and breathing in the academy. It’s hard not to project that onto people you’re working with, and kind of make them feel your pain, too. And it can take the form of anything, just like, you know, being really unnecessarily hard on someone’s research project and really trying to find everything wrong with it, or just really beating someone’s ideas down to the ground [laughter]. Thinking that you’re the only one, that the book that you wrote 10, 15 years ago is the only thing that we can look towards, and everything that you do afterwards is nothing. It’s like this idea that one is greater than the other that produces a really messed up type of hazing, where people want to drop out, people want to leave. I think it’s interesting how a lot of students build this idea that graduate school is supposed to be psychologically and emotionally damaging. It doesn’t have to be that way. It’s like we just accept [that] it’s part of it. And I don’t necessarily believe it has to be that way. I think that that’s very false, and that’s an idea we’re buying into that allows people to continue to intellectually haze and harm their colleagues, and so, I think we also have to change the way we think about what the academy is.” [musical interlude] Nia: Welcome to “We Want the Airwaves.” My name is Nia King. If you follow me on Twitter, you know that I have been working on this episode of the podcast for a long time. I interviewed Dr. Kortney Ryan Ziegler, who is a documentarian who made the film Still Black: A Portrait of Black Trans Men, which is one of the first, and I believe still only, documentaries about the lives of black trans[gender] men. We talk about Dr. Ziegler’s upcoming hack-a-thon for trans empowerment. We also talk about his vintage store that he co-owns, and his group, Who We Know, that works to economically empower trans people of color. I want to apologize to Dr. Kortney Ryan Ziegler, that it’s took me so long to get this episode out, because we actually recorded it back in May. So, thank you for your patience. One of the reasons stuff like this happens is because this podcast is a very DIY production. I do everything myself: all the interviews, all the booking, all the editing, all the promotion. It’s just me. I think that I am potentially going to be bringing on an East Coast correspondent, which is
very exciting, but at the moment, this is truly a one-woman labor of love. So, if you can donate any money to the podcast, it’s always greatly appreciated. You could donate through Paypal at artactivistnia.com, if you click on the podcast button, or at niapod.tumblr.com. There’s a Paypal donate button there as well. Thank you so much, and without further ado, here’s Kortney. [musical interlude] Nia: So, how did you end up writing for the Huffington Post? Kortney: I was working at Transgender Law Center planning their annual advocacy conference, and as part of my planning, I was doing a lot of writing to promote their event, and our communications guy couldn’t write an article about the event, and I was like “I’ll write it,” and I didn’t know he was going to post it on Huffington Post. So he posted it, and I got to guest post on Huffington Post, and they liked my writing so much that they offered – Nia: He didn’t tell you that your writing was going on Huffington Post – ? Kortney: Oh no no no, not before they posted it. After I wrote it, he was like, “Do you want to post it on Huffington Post?” Nia: Oh, ok. Kortney: So before, I didn’t know – because I would have messed up. Nia: [laughter] Kortney: So he was like “Do you want to submit it to the Huffington Post, you could do a guest post,” and I was like “Really? Yeah, of course.” And so, once I did that, the editor for, I guess, the Gay Voices, liked my writing so much, they offered me the golden key [laughter]. Nia: That’s a thing? Kortney: No, it’s not the golden key [laughter] I just like – that’s what it is, to become a HuffPost blogger – the golden key to blog. So that’s how I got it, to be a blogger. Nia: So – Kortney: So, it was a great opportunity. Nia: Yeah. So do you have sort of like an ongoing commitment to produce a certain amount of content, or is it just like whenever – Kortney: Whenever I want to. Nia: And do you have to pitch to them, or do they just green light everything you do? Kortney: That’s what I’m saying, you get the key, you get to do whatever you want. [laughter] Nia: [laughter] Kortney: It’s like, “I want to write about this today.” I mean, they have to, once you submit it, you get a 24-hours where they have to approve it, and they add their own – it’s a newspaper, so
they add their own images that are, you know, public domain images, any links, they check for any spelling errors and stuff, but you have free range to post whenever and whatever you want. In whatever section you want to post in. Nia: Do they change your headlines? Do they choose your headlines for you? Kortney: You write – yeah, it’s just like, you put your headline, you put your blog. Nia: That’s really awesome. How do you not become, like, drunk with power? [laughter] Kortney: I know, right? It’s – yeah, it’s been great for me because, writing at blac(k)ademic, I get to cross-post my posts, and so I get a wider audience, and send them back to my blog, so it’s really good. Nia: So, your article, “11 Trans Artists of Color You Should Really Know About,” I very much appreciated, and I’m totally contacting those people to speak on the podcast. [laughter] How did you choose who to highlight? Kortney: I was just like seeing who’s doing work. And, I guess, whoever was doing work, I felt that it was important to highlight. And some of them, I am personal fans of, and I felt like deserve more visibility. I chose 11 because I’m fascinated by the number 11, I live in apartment 11, 11 is my number. For some reason. Some people I knew deserved wider exposure. And some I just discovered and I was just like “Wow, I am so fascinated with the work you do.” And so, I just wrote the blog post, and it became the front page, the featured thing on Huffington Post Gay Voices, and that was like so – I was like – of course, this is the year of trans people. Nia: [laughter] Kortney: It was so awesome because I had so many emails of thanks. Not – I mean, from the artists who were very grateful, but from people who were like, “I never even knew these people were doing work, thank you.” Just like that, “I want to bring them to my school, I want to interview them for this,” and I’m like, great. This is what we should be doing as artists of color supporting each other to provide more opportunities, so that you can live your life and make money. [laughter] Nia: Yeah. Totally. Kortney: So that you can do – you know, you don’t have to do things for free. I’m not saying that those people on the list are doing things for free at all, but I’m pretty much in the mindset where I believe that I like to show public support and take advantage of my networks so that people like me can benefit as well. It’s so important, so once I had the golden key to the Huffington Post I was like – Well actually they had written an article, like, “20 Important Trans Artists That You Should Know,” during Trans Awareness Month, which I think was November or something – and one of them was a person and I got so mad. I was like, that’s not fair! Only one out of 20 people? And it went everywhere, that article, so I was like, I’m going to do my own. I’m going to do a list of people. I didn’t think it would become so popular in the ways that it did.
Nia: That’s really awesome. It’s such a great way to pay it forward. I feel like, I don’t know, this sounds really corny, but you just seem to have such a generous spirit. I think it is a political act, liberating knowledge from the academy. And this is just sort of another way of paying it forward. And also benefitting not only these amazing artists, but also the public, who now gets to know about them, that otherwise maybe – you know, sometimes if you’re not in the right circles, getting the word-of-mouth, grapevine information, you’d just not know about these people at all. Kortney: Exactly. Nia: In what way are you doing business now and how is that different or separate from your art? Kortney: I co-own a small business here in Oakland, a vintage boutique, which is really awesome. Nia: Can I ask which one? Kortney: Yeah. It’s called Halmoni Vintage, it’s actually right around the corner here. 1601 2 nd Avenue. Come through for all your amazing vintage needs. We’ll be in our second year of business in July. So, that’s a business venture that I’m in. I’ve also – Nia: That sounds like a huge – I mean, co-owning a small business is like a, more than full-time job, right? Kortney: Yeah, it’s . . . luckily, I have a partner, and it’s fun, though. We’re both fashionistas. I guess I’d be a fashionist-o, whatever. [laughter] We both are into fashion, and I never thought that it would be something that I could kind of translate into a business. I’m also, in terms of doing business with the trans community, I am in the process of building the capacity for an organization called Who We Know, that really, I really want to take trans people of color with significant business experience or life experience or educational background and turn them into entrepreneurs and to companies, which means that, working with me they would be partnered with the resources and networks of established non-profits, and use their money [laughter] to economically empower trans people of color. And I think that’s a way to really, because we talk about the non-profit industrial complex, and I really, you know, it’s kind of in some ways money laundering in certain situations, and I’ve had my experience working in it and seeing it happen, and I think there’s a way to really shift those financial resources and human capital in ways to benefit trans people of color. Nia: Could you say a little more about how non-profits launder money? Cause it sounds like, when you talk about it, or what you’re trying to do is not so much laundering as re-distributing wealth. Kortney: Mmm-hmm. Nia: – from these foundations that then trickles down to the non-profits, and then to have it go into these private business ventures, which are sort of benevolent in a way, in that they’re helping an economically marginalized community, but also are – I mean, it’s interesting, the relationship between non-profits and business, because there are other non-profits that incubate small businesses.
Kortney: I wish there were more of them that did that. I think that’s the kind of model that I’m basing Who We Know off of because, like I said, I spent so long of my life, after doing so many incredible things, you know, two and a half-plus years with nothing, and it was really – I was depressed. I lost so many things that I need – I lost my tools, I lost my filmmaking tools, that was something that was really meaningful to me, I almost lost my home. Nia: When you say tools, you mean skills or equipment? Kortney: Oh, my equipment. All the skills and creativity – I almost lost that, though, cause I almost lost my mind. [laughter] Nia: [laughter] Well, sometimes when you don’t use them, they kind of atrophy. Kortney: Yeah. And so, not even just atrophy – I could have lost my mind. I was so sad. And I was like, it doesn’t have to be – and then meeting other trans people of color who had amazing careers, and then transitioned on the job and lost everything, you know, but still have all this amazing wealth of experiences and knowledge that could benefit others who are in that position, right? So why not pair these people with all this money that these other non-profits have? Or resources, not even just money – or resources that they have, so that these people who have a history of doing amazing, brilliant things can do amazing, brilliant things to prevent other people from falling into the same trap of discrimination, pretty much. Nia: Yeah. Kortney: So one of the other projects that I’m doing right now is a hack-a-thon. It’s going to be one of the first things, I think, that my organization Who We Know does. And it’s called Who We Know because I really want to – you know how people say “finding a job is about who you know”? And I think that trans people – there’s this amazing community of so many movers and shakers, and power players, so it’s like – who WE know. We know a lot of amazing people! It’s not about who you know, it’s about who we know, it’s about being community and really helping each other. And so one of the first things I’m doing in September is a hack-a-thon for transgender empowerment, and I really am bringing together designers, entrepreneurs, developers, tech people, social justice activists, all types of people, where they’ll spend two days creating web content and mobile apps that empower trans people. Nia: That’s a really awesome idea. Has anyone else tried anything like that? Kortney: No. So we’ll be the first ever! [laughter] So I’m super excited because hack-a-thons are happening all over the country, and they’re happening – they, you know, first about, like, tech-heads getting to make really cool whatever apps, and now social justice people are really taking advantage of creating apps that empower people in multiple ways. And Oakland has hacka-thons, they have Code for Oakland, where people come together and use the data sets that the City of Oakland has, and make apps that improve the bus system [or] knowing what local grocers are open or something, and so I was like, why can’t we have that for trans people? Why can’t there be an app where I know that there’s trans-friendly employers in this state? Why can’t there just be – there’s the data for it, already. Why can’t we just put that together? Or, all the videos on YouTube of all the younger men than me being so open about their transition really inspired me to – I was like, “I’m going to do it. That kid over there, he’s living his life without shame,” that inspired me. So I was like, what if there’s an app that kind of was an aggregator of
all these YouTube videos, that you could classify by geography, situation, whatever they’re talking about – race, or whatever – that people can access all together in one kind of – one space, that you don’t have to go to YouTube and do searches or whatever. I was thinking about all these ways that we can put all this data together to benefit our community, and so the hack-a-thon was an idea that I came up with because nobody else was doing it, and I was like, that would be so awesome, because I would want to participate in it. Nia: Yeah. It sounds super cool. Kortney: So, it’s going to happen, September 13-15, here in Oakland, California. Nia: Is there a location? Kortney: Yeah, at – there’s a new gallery. Do you know Betti Ono gallery, downtown? The hack-a-thon’s going to happen there, and the presentations are going to happen at the New Parkway. Nia: Oh, awesome. Kortney: So it’s going to be a really amazing event, and there are going to be prizes and celebrity guest judges [laughter] and so I’m really trying to make it a really important event that will yield some amazing products that will make living as a trans person easier or better, or whatever. So I’m really super excited. I think it’s going to be amazing. I’m so excited. Nia: Yeah. I feel really excited just to have captured this information to get to share it with the world. Cause it’s such a cool concept. And it’s like – I don’t know why my thought is “why didn’t I think of that?” But yeah, it just seems like such a good idea. I’m curious about – you mentioned a potential app that would be, I think, essentially an archive of – is it just transition videos, or just videos that trans guys are making online? Kortney: Yeah, I think that – I would call them testimonials or diaries or something. I think there is a culture of, that YouTube, starting in 2005, that trans people have discovered or created this community, where they just document their transition. Even before Still Black came out, there was people documenting their transition and talking about it, and, you know, showing themselves giving themselves T shots, or post-surgery, or whatever. Sharing things that they couldn’t share with their family or friends or lovers. Sharing it to a camera that some other guy’s going to watch, or some other young woman’s going to watch – you know, anybody. And so all of this amazing archive exists on YouTube. How can we make that archive more beneficial for all types of trans people? How can we make it more accessible for trans people? Using YouTube’s API to create this amazing app or this amazing website, I think that’s such a powerful idea. Yeah, so, I’m excited about the hack-a-thon that’s coming up, and I think, again, it’s going to make such a difference in the tech world, because, yeah, why has nobody done this yet? There’s food hack-a-thons. There’s all kinds of hack-a-thons all the time. I was just at a hack-a-thon for Tribeca Film Institute where we were filmmakers and designers and developers together hacking archives, like, using public archives in creative ways. And so, if we can do one for filmmaking, why can’t we do one for trans people? It just makes sense. Talking about my idea and working on it, and finding sponsors has been an incredible journey, because people are so excited about it, they’re like “Wow, this is going to be so cool! Of course
it’s a great idea!” And knowing that there are so many trans people who are in the tech industry, or people who are in the tech industry who [have] social justice mindsets and really want to use their skills to make these important apps. Nia: I think it’s really interesting that it’s going to happen in Oakland, because I feel like we’re kind of – we’re situated near Silicon Valley – Kortney: Exactly. Nia: – but we don’t have a Silicon Valley sensibility, you know, we have an Oakland sensibility. And Oakland has a lot of queer brown people. And so to get together the sort of skills and expertise of the sort of Silicon Valley set with the social justice consciousness of the best that Oakland has to offer. It’s just really exciting. Kortney: Yeah, it’s going to be amazing. And Oakland is starting to become more, I think – cause they have Code for Oakland, and then Alameda County now has a hack-a-thon, and right next door to Betti Ono gallery is Hub Oakland, they’re building their hub. And so that’s really cool. Nia: What is Hub Oakland? Kortney: Kind of like – do you know a co-worker space, or an incubator? Tech Liminal is one of them. It’s like a public open space where entrepreneurs can come and take advantage of the wi-fi, or they’ll probably offer residencies where you can come and incubate your project for 6 months or something. I don’t know the specifics of Hub Oakland, but it’s a hub, and, it’s, yeah – where people who are interested in tech can come and kind of congregate. so it’s such perfect timing, and also September is Oakland Pride month. And so of course that – Nia: You gotta love that Oakland does it later than everybody else! [laughter] Not July, not August. September. [laughter] Kortney: [laughter] September. I know. And I think it’s really important to do it during that month to also shift the narrative of what Pride can do, because, you know, Pride’s about partying and stuff, but what about if we’re – I mean there’s going to be an afterparty of course [laughter] – but focus on activism, like, really being active, and creating something that’s going to have a tangible effect in the community. So, I’m really excited, and I think it’s an amazing idea, and I think it’s going to be an incredibly powerful event. Nia: Yeah. Do you have any concern about, you know, something like an app that is an archive of transition videos, sort of falling into the wrong hands? Kortney: Yeah. I think anything can fall into the wrong hands. I think that’s a risk we take with creating anything. Someone can take advantage of it, right? But that shouldn’t stop us from doing it, and we should push harder to get stuff out there, because we know that it’s so easy for things to be misappropriated/taken advantage of. Again, I think it’s why trans people should be in charge of creating work that centers us and focuses on us, and that we have a say in how that image is represented. Because it will be inevitable that someone is going to use it with, intentions that it shouldn’t be used [with], because we live in a world full of discrimination and prejudice.
But there’s also the majority of people that are going to use it for the positive advantages, and it’s going to make a change. Nia: Could you talk a little about your web presence on social media, and sort of how you use those tools as a businessperson and an artist? Kortney: I was weird in relationship with social media because social media started to hurt my feelings. Nia: I think a lot of people can probably identify with that. [laughter] Kortney: It started to really make me feel like shit. Like, I only recently reactivated my Facebook and have diligently been updating it for business purposes. Because it creates a world that’s not real. [laughter] And I was measuring how much people liked my work, depending on how many “likes” it’d make it, or, you know, something, and that was really, again, setting myself up for failure because people don’t always approach social media to find groundbreaking work. Sometimes they want to – Nia: Look at cat pictures. Kortney: Look at cat pictures. Like the picture of the guy with his shirt off. Look at recipes and like, you know, someone’s food picture. And sometimes those are the people that we’re dealing with to measure whether my work is good or not. Nia: And sometimes those people are us. [laughter] Kortney: Exactly. And I am those people too, for sure. But I think the way I use social media is – I tweet a lot – I’ve been tweeting the past couple days, because I got rejected from a fellowship that I really wanted, and I’ve been sitting with that, and I think I haven’t really been on social media, and that’s been really new for me – Nia: Do you find it’s like a cleanse, almost like a detox a little bit? Kortney: Yeah, because social media is vicious. I think people are ready to fight online, too. People are ready to fight. Nia: Do you get a lot of that? Kortney: Yeah. I’ve been kind of – I’ve been ready to fight, too. I’ve been toning down my viciousness online as a response because – Nia: It’s really easy to get into fights with people. Kortney: It’s so easy – because it’s so much easier than the actual, like, in public if you’re talking to someone. Cause I interact with a lot of academics and they have egos, and so, a lot of people write essays and put them out, and people may want to – a lot of people sometimes won’t want to find the value in the essay, they just want to critique it, they want to come at you, like “You missed this!” or “You didn’t consider this!” because they’re behind a computer. Nia: So these are academics starting shit on the internet.
Kortney: Yeah. A lot of academics start shit on the internet. They take it out of the classroom. Cause they start shit in the classroom. Nia: [laughter] These are the people that are educating our young people. Kortney: I call them, a lot of people call them, the Talented Tenth – a selection of black intellectuals. There’s lots of debates that happen, there’s lots of fights that come out of it. And so, I’ve learned to, whenever I say something online, and someone comes at me with a “What? Why? What? Who?” I respond and I just keep it moving. I don’t even like, try to ask them a question in return because it’s going to lead to a fight. It’s going to lead to some debate that becomes hurtful. Also because we’re communicating through text, and there’s no vocal cadence behind it. You can’t tell what emotion’s going behind it. So I craft my social media presence to be – I don’t talk about my relationships online, I don’t talk about who I’m with, I don’t share anybody that I hang out with. You know how some people are constantly Instagramming who they’re with, every moment of the day? I don’t do that, I think that that’s stupid, I’m sorry guys [laughter] because it – in my experience of social media, it hurts my feelings. Because you’re creating this idea of this life that’s not real. Even though you may be hanging out with these awesome people. But we know what it’s like to hang out with people. It’s not that awesome all the time. [laughter] And so I’ve had to, like, block certain people. Because I don’t want to see their feeds, in whatever social media, Facebook or twitter, or something, because it made me feel bad about my life and what I’m doing, and again I have to learn – that stuff isn’t real. Learning when to debate with people online, when to post a picture of myself or whatever. I mainly use it to promote my work and to find out the work that other people are doing. Cause it’s scary. Scary world, social media. Twitter scares me. I love to tweet, but sometimes it’s like – I don’t even want to debate with you right now. Nia: Have you developed any sort of best practices or learned any lessons about using social media to promote your work, that you feel are worth sharing? Kortney: I actually found out lots of exhibitions of my work that I wouldn’t have known about, had I not stumbled onto it through social media. So that’s – Nia: People don’t tell you when they’re exhibiting your work? Kortney: People don’t tell me all the time. All the time. It happens – Nia: Oh my god, that would make me so angry! Kortney: Yeah, exactly. As a filmmaker, you want to – you know, especially as an independent filmmaker who doesn’t have a distributor to have their work to be paid for, to be exhibited in different places. And so, my work gets shown all the time, and you know, someone will tweet it, or make a Facebook event, and they’ll invite me to it, and I’m like, “Hey, I didn’t know about that!” Nia: [laughter] Do you think there’s anything that could be done about that?
Kortney: I think artists just need to set up Google alerts, different Google alerts with their names and their work, so they know when someone is – cause people advertise everything through social media. Nia: Yeah. I’m going to go home and do that right now [laughter] Kortney: Yeah. You got to search for your name, and you know, that sounds very egotistical, but it’s not when you’re an independent artist and you want to know who’s using your work, and also, maybe perhaps charging to use your work, making money off using work that you are not making money from. Nia: The listeners can’t see me shaking my head right now. [laughter] That’s so frustrating. Kortney: But yeah, best practice is just be careful what you say. Be diplomatic. Try to be diplomatic online. I’m always trying to be diplomatic. And some people have pushed my buttons online, where I’ve come off as being not very diplomatic, and I’ve been embarrassed by that because I want to craft a public persona of diplomacy, and not someone who’s ready to chop your head off and come at you. We live in a call-out culture, I hate that, I hate that everyone just wants to call somebody out. [laughter] You know, people are just waiting to call somebody out, and they’re waiting to do it through social media. I’m so over it. Nia: It’s really interesting, because it’s such a big part of social justice culture, too. And having gone to school for ethnic studies, I know how to pick apart anything. But now that I’ve graduated, and I’m trying to be a creator of culture instead of just a critique-r of culture, you realize how much harder it is to make something that you yourself would not want to critique, than to just tear everybody else’s shit down. Do you think that’s made you more gracious towards other artists, or more, sort of forgiving? Kortney: Mmm-hmm. Yeah. I don’t like to attack people and their work or their point of view, unless it’s really explicitly problematic and fucked up and racist and transphobic and all these other things and it’s making a negative impact and I feel like it’s an obligation to call somebody out, but if it’s somebody’s little essay that I disagree with, whatever, their little theory. [Nia laughs.] I don’t want to diminish anybody’s work. But, you know, if it’s somebody’s work that doesn’t make a strong impact on my life, why would I sit there and call them out for it, you know? [laughter] I think a lot of people do it to make a name for themselves – you know “I’m going to attack such-and-such’s work, cause you know, then people are going to see that I’m attacking their work and it’s going to bring some kind of credibility to me” and it’s like no – it’s going to make you look really negative. But some people like that, too. People, I think, thrive off of negativity – Nia: There’s some professional haters. Kortney: – and conflict and drama. So I think it works for some people. Nia: Do you have any thoughts about social media and your web presence and your blog, sort of, what the ideal balance is between public and private, in terms of, – as an independent artist, you are your own brand, right? And so, how much – I think there’s, I’m trying to work through the thought right now sort of a – so, I quit social media altogether for a while. And then, to become a social media intern at [unknown] I had to have a Facebook account and a twitter account, and so
I’ve kind of gone like off the deep end a little bit with all that stuff now, and at first I was like “I’m just going to use this for business, I’m just going to use this for work, I’m just going to use this to promote myself as an artist.” And for the most part, that’s what I do. But there’s kind of a thing of diminishing returns with that. You don’t want to spam people, like “Look at this! Look at this! Look at this!” like, you also have to – I think at the beginning I thought, like, “I am giving them something. I’m giving them my art,” as if I was bestowing this great gift upon them that they should be grateful for. But in reality, they don’t just want what you produce, they want you. And so how, I guess – I’m a really private person. It seems like, for you, living your life in public is part of your activism. How much of you do you give people, and how do you choose what to give? Kortney: Like I said, it’s funny because I’m very open and very candid, and I share a lot of things that I think may be helpful for someone in their journey, but I don’t put everything about my life. Like, if I’m having a relationship problem, I don’t share that. It’s nobody’s business but my own. Even though people might be interested – and I think a lot of people are interested in people’s personal relationships, but I’m not necessarily interested. So I do not want to give people that energy, too, and I also feel – yeah, so, relationships I never talk about. Everything that I talk about on social media is about my work, and my emotions that are related to work, and that’s about it. And I’m just very careful to not put very personal things online. I don’t want to give people, also, the ability to use that negatively against me. I don’t like to be a subject of any kind of gossip, so I feel like the less I reveal about myself, there’s just less for me to be talked about other than my work. And yeah, people just don’t need to know who I’m spending time with in terms of friendship or anything, because sometimes I hang out with people, and the first thing they’ll do is take a picture, and then they’ll Instagram it or something, and I’ll be like, “Okay, um… I didn’t know that everybody and their mom had to know that we had brunch together today.” [laughter] And that’s fine, you know, I think it’s silly sometimes, but some people, that’s what they do. I don’t necessarily do that because it becomes some sort of ammunition for people to use in ways that aren’t necessarily healthy or beneficial for me as a person. That’s how I think. Privacy is so important, [laughter] So I’m very particular about what I share.
This action might not be possible to undo. Are you sure you want to continue?
We've moved you to where you read on your other device.
Get the full title to continue reading from where you left off, or restart the preview.