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STATE OF NEW YORK DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SERVICE

THREE EMPIRE STATE PLAZA, ALBANY, NY 12223-1350


www.dps.ny.gov

PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION AUDREY ZIBELMAN Chair PATRICIA L. ACAMPORA GARRY A. BROWN GREGG C. SAYRE DIANE X. BURMAN Commissioners PETER McGOWAN General Counsel KATHLEEN H. BURGESS Secretary

Re: Case 12-T-0248


NYSEG Columbia County Transmission Project September 17, 2013

** Please note this is a Preliminary transcript, subject to later edits when reviewed by the Administrative Law Judges assigned to the cases.

Page 52 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 A.L.J. ELEANOR STEIN Administrative Law Judge Three Empire State Plaza Albany, New York 12223-1350 Tuesday, September 17, 2013 9:30 a.m. Third Floor Hearing Room Three Empire State Plaza Albany, New York 12223-1350 APPLICATION OF NEW YORK STATE ELECTRIC and GAS CORPORATION FOR A CERTIFICATE OF ENVIRONMENTAL COMPATIBILITY AND PUBLIC NEED FOR THE CONSTRUCTION OF THE "COLUMBIA COUNTY TRANSMISSION PROJECT," APPROXIMATELY 11.1 MILES OF 115 KILOVOLT TRANSMISSION LINES AND RELATED FACILITIES IN THE TOWNS OF CHATHAM, GHENT, AND STOCKPORT, IN COLUMBIA COUNTY CASE# 12-T-0248 STATE OF NEW YORK PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION

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Case 12-T-0248 - 9-17-2013 APPEARANCES: FOR PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION: STEVEN BLOW, ESQ. STAFF COUNSEL OFFICE OF GENERAL COUNSEL NEW YORK STATE PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Three Empire State Plaza Albany, New York 12223-1350 ANDREW C. DAVIS Utility Supervisor Office of Energy Efficieny and the Environment NEW YORK STATE PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Three Empire State Plaza Albany, New York 12223-1350 FOR DEPARTMENT OF STATE DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE AND MARKETS: CHRIS CUDDEBACK, ESQ. SENIOR ATTORNEY 108 Airline Drive Albany, New York 12235 MATTHEW J. BROWER Agricultural Resource Specialist Division of Land and Water Resources 108 Airline Drive Albany, New York 12235 NEW YORK STATE DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION: LISA A. WILKINSON, ESQ. Office of General Counsel 625 Broadway 14th Floor Albany, New York 12233-1500 SARAH EVANS DIVISION OF ENVIRONMENTAL PERMITS 625 Broadway 14th Floor Albany, New York 12233-1500

24 25 26 27 28 Associated Reporters Int'l., Inc.

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Case 12-T-0248 - 9-17-2013 NEW YORK STATE ELECTRIC AND GAS: CULLEN and DYKMAN, LLP BY: DAVID T. METCALFE, ESQ. ANGELA N. CASCIONE, ESQ. 100 Quentin Roosevelt Blvd. Garden City, New York 11530 FOR TOWN OF GHENT:

7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 Associated Reporters Int'l., Inc. 800.523.7887 PANEL: Timothy Lynch Jeffrey L. McKinney Jensye Mandizha (phonetic spelling) GREENBERG & GREENBERG BY: MARK DAVID GREENBERG Four East Court Street Hudson, New York 12534 FOR PROTECT GHENT: GREENBERG TRAURIG BY: WILLIAM A. HURST, ESQ. 54 State Street, 6th Floor Albany, New York 12207

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Case 12-T-0248 - 9-17-2013 (The hearing commenced at 9:50

A.L.J. STEIN: we're going to go on the record.

Thank you.

So

I call this case, 12-T-0248, the application of New York State Electric and Gas Corporation for a certificate OF environmental compatibility and public need, pursuant to Public Service Law, Article 7, for the construction of the Columbia County Transmission Project. My name is Administrative Law Judge Eleanor Stein. hearing. We have just had an off-the-record conversation about certain streamlining procedures that I've put into place for the hearing, and I'm going to read these into the record, for our reference in the course of the hearing. Here Kirsten, here's a copy of what I'm going to put on record. THE REPORTER: A.L.J. STEIN: THE REPORTER: Okay. Okay? Uh-huh. 800.523.7887 I will be presiding at this

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Case 12-T-0248 - 9-17-2013 A.L.J. STEIN: These procedures

refer to the normal identification of witness's and testimony, and filing of exhibits. So, the

following streamlining procedures will be observed at this hearing. The first is with regard to pre-filed testimony hardcopy. In the past, the

procedure has been for the counsel for the sponsoring witness, to bring a single-sided, hard copy of each set of pre-filed testimony to hand to the court reporter to be included in the transcript. In this case, the court reporter will be given a list of the pre-filed testimony in the commission's web system, and will be able to download those electronically for direct insertion into the transcript. Therefore, we don't need

copies of pre-filed testimony to hand to the reporter. This is called the 21st century. It should have been in place for about the last thirty years. With regard to pre-filed exhibits in hardcopy in the past, the procedure has been for 800.523.7887

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Case 12-T-0248 - 9-17-2013 counsel to bring a single-sided, hard copy of each pre-filed exhibit to hand to the court reporter as the exhibits are marked for identification. And at

the end of the hearing, the court reporter would give all the marked exhibits to the Judge, who would file them with the secretary in the case record. For this hearing, all the pre-filed exhibits are already on file electronically with the secretary. And therefore,

counsel need not bring hard copy of those exhibits. With regard to referring to exhibits during cross examination any exhibits referenced during cross examination, and proposed for inclusion into the record, will be identified by a new exhibit number given consecutively during the course of the hearing. And thereafter, we will

refer to the exhibits using these identification numbers, and I will circulate a list of the exhibits following the hearing. With regard to new exhibits that are introduced during cross examination; if a party is introducing an exhibit during the hearing that has not been pre-filed, it is required that the 800.523.7887

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Case 12-T-0248 - 9-17-2013 party provide a hard copy for me, provide a hard copy to the witness being cross examined, and provide a hard copy to all interested parties participating in the hearings. To save paper, the hard copy exhibits should be double-sided. And at the

conclusion of the hearings, a true electronic copy of the exhibit must be filed with the secretary by the party introducing it. Finally, with regard to cross examination of confidential, redacted material we have already made arrangements, off the record, to ensure that no confidential material is inappropriately discussed. So cross examination with regard to confidential material will take place at the close of the hearing today, and we will go into executive session to do that. Parties are encouraged to try to work around the confidential redacted material to the extent that they can. With respect to introduction of witnesses, a witness being called to the stand, I will swear them in. In the past, the procedure has 800.523.7887

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Case 12-T-0248 - 9-17-2013 been for counsel for the witness to ask a series of introductory questions about the pre-filed testimony and to move the pre-filed testimony into evidence as if given orally. And, for counsel for

the witness to ask a series of introductory questions before making the witness available for cross examination. In the interest of time, and efficiency for this hearing, all the pre-filed testimony for appearing witnesses shall be entered into evidence at the close of the hearings, without the need to make a motion. This does not preclude the Judge from striking testimony from the record, if appropriate. And for this hearing, it will be

presumed that each witness has prepared his or her own pre-filed testimony, or that it was prepared under their direction, unless counsel and the witness indicate otherwise, and explain why the witness is here in lieu of the witness who prepared testimony. We will assume that each witness will be answering questions contained in the pre-filed testimony, and will give answers that are 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 question.

Case 12-T-0248 - 9-17-2013 the same as the answers they gave in their testimony, that each witness has prepared their own sponsored pre-filed exhibits, or has had them prepared under their direction, and that each witness believes the information contained in their pre-filed exhibits is true to the best of their knowledge. So, unless one or more of these assumptions is untrue, the only introductory question counsel should pose, if necessary, is whether the witness has any substantive corrections to make to the pre-filed testimony. These

corrections should be stated for the record and I'm asking parties to avoid introducing corrected versions of testimony at the hearings. And finally, I believe in this case, there is only one proffered witness for whom there was no cross examination, and that witness has already been excused, and that witness's testimony will be put into evidence based on an affidavit that will be filed following the hearing. Are there any questions about these procedures? MS. CASSIONE: Your Honor, one

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Honor. exhibits, right. exhibits?

Case 12-T-0248 - 9-17-2013 For exhibits that contain confidential information, do you still want those filed electronically? A.L.J. STEIN: Are these new

MS. CASSIONE:

These are new

We're introducing them today.

There's just a handful of them. A.L.J. STEIN: Well, we have a

process for filing confidential information. MS. CASSIONE: A.L.J. STEIN: MS. CASSIONE: A.L.J. STEIN: filed using that procedure. MS. CASSIONE: A.L.J. STEIN: be distributed today. Okay. So they should not Okay. So -All right. -- they should be

They should simply be filed

electronically -- filed electronically. Any other questions? MR. METCALFE: Excuse me, your

One question, I have been presuming that

the applicant's actual application, the Article 7 application, would be the principal component of 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 No, your Honor.

Case 12-T-0248 - 9-17-2013 the applicant's submission of exhibits, as well as the supplemental info delivered by the applicant afterwards. I just don't want to operate on that presumption, and then learn later that I was mistaken. front. A.L.J. STEIN: Now, are you going So I wanted to get that out right up

to be submitting any additional exhibits other than what is contained in those documents? MR. METCALFE: We do not plan to.

That is our direct case. A.L.J. STEIN: So with respect to

the application, and the deficiency responses, I'd like to suggest that we -- at the beginning of the hearing that we mark those as Exhibit One collectively. MR. BLOW: Your Honor, the

confusion will be that the application has exhibits itself, one through nine, I believe, and then E one through E six. In the past, what has been done is the exhibits have been marked one through nine, and then E one exhibits ten and on down through. I

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Case 12-T-0248 - 9-17-2013 don't know if that is helpful, but it would avoid having two exhibit -- having an exhibit be referred to as exhibit nine of exhibit one, or something like that. not. A.L.J. STEIN: Why don't we I don't know if that is a problem or

reserve exhibit numbers one through twenty for the application and the deficiency responses? And the

company can, perhaps in consultation with staff counsel or other counsels as well, figure out an appropriate way to break it down, so that we don't have repetitive numbers. Would that be -We're happy to do

MR. METCALFE: that, your Honor. A.L.J. STEIN: MR. METCALFE:

-- the most --? Yes. I think so.

We can work with staff counsel, and any other parties' counsels and we'll hammer out a list that will avoid or at least minimize confusion. And

it'll probably take up about twenty of the first exhibits responses. A.L.J. STEIN: Mr. Blow is that

MR. BLOW:

Yes, that's fine. 800.523.7887

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Case 12-T-0248 - 9-17-2013 A.L.J. STEIN: MR. BLOW: -- acceptable? Maybe at

That's fine.

the first break or whatever we can figure out how many exhibits there are with the application, the exhibits in the application, and then the supplemental information that was provided in response to the deficiencies, and requests in the secretary's letter. A.L.J. STEIN: Do you want me to

leave to leave thirty or twenty-five? MR. BLOW: Can we go off the

A.L.J. STEIN:

Absolutely.

(Off the record) A.L.J. STEIN: We have just had a

discussion about numbering exhibits for identification. And, I will reserve numbers one

through twenty-five for the application, and the related documents including the deficiency responses -- two deficiency responses. The exact manner in which we will number the different components of those filings, including the updates and revisions, will be addressed by the parties at the close of the 800.523.7887

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Case 12-T-0248 - 9-17-2013 But for now, we are reserving numbers one And while we're discussing

through twenty-five.

the exhibits, the procedure I'd like to use is that if a party is going to introduce an exhibit, we will give it a number for identification. And I

will be asking you to very briefly describe what the exhibit contains, and we'll get that on the record, and then we will compile the official list of exhibits to be moved into evidence at the close of the hearing. Are there any other questions about exhibits or any other procedures? Okay. And

I see that we have a counsel who was not present when we took appearances. Would you like to enter

your appearance for the record? MR. HURST: Thank you, Judge

I'm William Hurst of Greenberg Traurig, Albany, New York, on behalf of Protect Ghent, and I do apologize to the group. We had a

little bit of a calendar glitch, and I had this for ten-thirty, not nine-thirty. So I apologize for being late. A.L.J. STEIN: So you're actually 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Good point. least. early.

Case 12-T-0248 - 9-17-2013

MR. HURST:

I thought I was at

MR. METCALFE:

Your Honor, I'm

not even sure we took appearances, did you? A.L.J. STEIN: Okay. If you can please give your card at some point to the court reporter that would be helpful. So before we proceed, let's take So we begin with the No, I didn't.

appearances for the record. staff? MR. BLOW:

Well, the staff of the

Department of Public Service, designated to represent the public interest in this proceeding, Steven Blow, Assistant Counsel. A.L.J. STEIN: MR. METCALFE: And for NYSEG? For the New York

State Electric and Gas Corporation, the applicant, David Metcalfe and Angela Cascione, the law firm of Cullen and Dykman, L.L.P. A.L.J. STEIN: MS. WILKINSON: D.E.C., Lisa Wilkinson. 800.523.7887 For D.E.C.? Your Honor, for

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Town of Ghent?

Case 12-T-0248 - 9-17-2013 A.L.J. STEIN: Agriculture and Markets? MR. LUSIGNAN: and Markets, Brian Lusignan. A.L.J. STEIN: you say your name again? MR. LUSIGNAN: A.L.J. STEIN: MR. CUTTABACK: Brian Lusignan. Thank you. Your Honor, also I'm sorry. Could For Agriculture And for

for Agriculture and Markets, Chris Cuttaback. A.L.J. STEIN: Okay. And for the

MR. GREENBERG:

On behalf of the

Town of Ghent, Mark Greenberg, from the law firm of Greenberg and Greenberg, Hudson, New York. I'm serving as of counsel for the firm of Guterman, Alford and Shallo -- it's Guterman Shallo and Alford from Hudson. A.L.J. STEIN: Thank you. And

Bless you.

Mr. Hurst we have your appearance. MR. METCALFE: Your Honor, I will

also note that serving with me is Ashley Moreno, assistant counsel. She is out on maternity leave,

so she will be at some point, co-counsel. 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Honor.

Case 12-T-0248 - 9-17-2013 A.L.J. STEIN: Very good. Well,

after all of those preliminaries, I think it is time to begin the cross examination of the witnesses. So I'd like the witness's counsel to introduce the witnesses, and then I will swear you in, and then we will proceed. Let me

remind parties, that following the close of cross examination of each panel, or witness, I'm also going to give NYSEG an opportunity to do redirect, if appropriate. MR. METCALFE: Thank you, your

For the applicant, NYSEG calls the witness

panel of, from left to right, Tim Lynch, Jeff McKinney and Jensye Mandizha (phonetic spelling). A.L.J. STEIN: Thank you. Would

you please stand and raise your right hand -hands, and repeat after me: I hereby affirm or

swear that the testimony I'm about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. MESSRS. LYNCH/ MCKINNEY/MANDIZHA: I hereby attest or swear the truth -- that the testimony that I'm about to give you is to be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. METCALFE: Q. these witnesses? much.

Case 12-T-0248 - 9-17-2013 A.L.J. STEIN: Please be seated. Thank you very

MESSRS. LYNCH, MCKINNEY, MANDIZHA; SWORN. A.L.J. STEIN: Now who's first?

Do we have cross examination for

MR. METCALFE:

Actually, your

Honor, if I could just do a bit of additional direct. DIRECT EXAMINATION

Gentlemen, in addition to your

pre-filed testimony, you're aware that the exhibits marked for identification in this case, submitted by NYSEG or the application, as well as, supplemental materials; the particular portions of that, that you gentlemen are sponsoring are portions of Exhibit Two, portions of Exhibit Three, and all of Exhibit E Four. And in each case, as supplemented by the materials delivered after the application -filed after the application. Now Mr. Mandizha, you're a replacement for Edguardo Manensala (phonetic 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Direct - Metcalfe spelling), who had worked for the company, and is no longer with the company. And he has -- it's my

understanding that he had produced the materials, particularly Exhibit E Four. Can you testify that

you have reviewed Exhibit E Four, and if you were to have produced it yourself, it would look exactly as Exhibit E Four looks right now? A. (Mandizha) I testified to that. MR. METCALFE: further questions, your Honor. A.L.J. STEIN: Thank you. In Okay. I've no

that case, I have Protect Ghent for sixty minutes. MR. HURST: Thank you, Judge.

Just a quick question for Mr. Metcalfe, perhaps. Does the panel have before them the portions of the application from which they're going to testify? MR. METCALFE: MR. HURST: They do, yes. Excellent.

Okay.

And have they got the full application before them, or just those segments? MR. METCALFE: They have the

revised or supplemented application. MR. HURST: Fair enough. 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Direct - Metcalfe And Judge, at the onset, I was going to use figure 3.3 of the application, just as a demonstrative exhibit, just so we can sort of get our bearings here together. Not a great place to

set it up, sorry, but, the only way I can do this --. A.L.J. STEIN: Off the record.

(Off the record) A.L.J. STEIN: Is this a -- is

this a -- can you authenticate this for us? MR. HURST: Sure. This is a -It's a

as a demonstrative exhibit, Judge.

reproduction of figure 3-3 of the NYSEG application. It's just the overall route with the alternative shown, just for the purpose of a couple of introductory questions, just so we're all on the same page in terms of terminology as we go forward. A.L.J. STEIN: think this will be very helpful. MR. METCALFE: Can I just ask, I Thank you. I

think figure 3-3 has a number of alternatives behind it. Maybe those are labeled as 3-3 A? 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. HURST: Q. Honor. off? proceed, Judge. an A.

Direct - Metcalfe MR. HURST: Okay. Just 3-3 without

MR. METCALFE:

MR. HURST:

Thank you. Can we proceed

A.L.J. STEIN:

while we're waiting for the easel or do you need it to go forward? MR. HURST: I think we can

Let me get my bearings here. THE REPORTER: Do you want to go

A.L.J. STEIN:

Yes.

(Off the record) A.L.J. STEIN: MR. HURST: Please proceed.

Thank you, your

CROSS EXAMINATION

Good morning, Messrs. McKinney, How are you today? Good, I think.

Lynch and Mandizha. A. Q.

(Panel) Good.

The angle here is a little

bit odd, but I'll do my best to keep my mouth on the microphone while questioning you all, and going 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst through the other little circus routine I've got here. But in any event, at the onset gentlemen, just for purposes of sort of getting us all moving forward on the same page in terms of the project that we're dealing with here, the County Columbia Transmission Project, that is. I've

reproduced as you can see, an oversized map, figure 3-3 of NYSEG's original application. Are the three of you able to see that from where you're seating? A. Q. (Panel) And gentlemen, I'll be generally

making reference as well to Section Two -- Exhibit Two of the application, entitled location of the facility. In particular, section 2.1. So if you have that in front of you, you may want to get that set up, open and available to you. And so gentlemen, and I'm not sure what one of you wants to tackle these questions. I'll leave that to your discretion. As I understand it, the proposal here by NYSEG as described in the application is 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 understanding.

Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst for a hundred and fifteen kilovolt transmission line that would traverse the towns in part of Stockport, Ghent, and Chatham, New York. Is that generally correct as an overview of the project? A. (McKinney) Yes. That's my

Q.

And the project entails, as I

understand it, a hundred and fifteen kilovolt switching station that is now proposed to be located in the town of Ghent, is that correct? A. Q. Yes. And if you take a look at figure

3.3, it's my understanding that the applicant has proposed, at this time, two alternative sites for, what I'll generally refer to, as the Ghent switching station. And so you see where I'm pointing to on the figure 3-3? A. Q. Yes. And that is alternative site one

for one of the Ghent switching station alternatives, correct? A. Correct. 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst Q. And just beneath that is

alternative site two for the Ghent switching station, correct? A. Q. Correct. And am I also correct, gentlemen,

that the proposal entails approximately eleven point one miles of a hundred and fifteen kilovolt transmission line, which includes both something that's identified in the application as circuit number seven twenty-six, is that correct? A. Q. That is correct. And also what is identified in

the application, as National Grid trunk fifteen, is that correct? A. Q. Correct. And when I refer to circuit

number twenty-six, is it accurate for me to state that on figure 3-3, at least, circuit number twenty-six, is generally what's shown in sort of the yellow hash lines as we go around here, from east to west, and then from north to south? A. Q. Circuit seven twenty-six. Circuit seven twenty-six.

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst And when we talk about National Grid trunk number fifteen, are we referring to the north/south generally, line in purple, or are we referring to the blue lines between the alternative sites, and the north/south line in purple? A. From an existing standpoint, it's

the north/south purple line. Q. And the proposal then is to

extend National Grid trunk number fifteen to one of the two alternative sites, is that correct? A. Q. Correct. And the project also entails,

does it not, modifications to what's known as the Kline Kill substation? A. Q. Correct. And am I correct that the Kline

Kill substation is generally in the area that I'm gesturing to now? A. Q. Yes. And the distance, gentlemen,

between existing National Grid trunk fifteen, and say alternative site one, am I correct that that's approximately one point two five miles? A. That's my understanding. 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst Q. And am I also correct, that the

proposal entails a double circuit from the selected alternative switching station site back to what is now identified as National Grid trunk number fifteen? A. Q. That's my understanding. Okay. And it would be then --

the project would then be a single circuit along what we referred to as circuit number seven twenty-six, at least until we reach the point where it turns in a northerly direction, correct? A. Q. That's my understanding. And there is an existing power

line that between the Kline Kill substation headed south along that line at the right-hand margin of Exhibit 3-3, correct? A. Q. Correct. And is that circuit generally

known as number nine eighty-four? A. Q. I believe so. And as we can see the proposed

route of circuit number seven twenty-six, I don't know if you're familiar with local geography, but just to get everybody oriented. This would be 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst County Route 22 through here, wouldn't it? A. I don't know. I should make very

clear that this panel does not testify to the route chosen by our experts in getting from the proposed Ghent station to the Kline Kill substation. here to document the need for this project. Q. Sure. And in order to document We are

the need for the project, I suppose you need to have some understanding of what the project is, right? A. Q. Yes. Okay. A general overview. Yes.

And we have just done sort

of a general overview of the project, correct? A. Q. Yes. Gentlemen, if you would, I'd like

you to get before you figured 2-2 of the application. MR. HURST: Judge, I do have a

slightly larger copy, if you'd like one. A.L.J. STEIN: MR. HURST: Sure. Thank you.

It's easier on the

A.L.J. STEIN:

Counsel, if -- you

might be -- if you're more comfortable, you can sit 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 facilities. idea, Judge. BY MR. HURST:

Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst on the other side of the table. microphone. Just move your

If you'd like to see the witnesses a

little more directly. It's up to you. MR. HURST: That's a very good

(Cont'g.) Q. Okay gentlemen, I've just handed

you what's been identified in the application as figure 2-2. It's titled location of other Do you have that before you right now? A. Q. Yes. And as I understand it, figure

2-2 shows the existing hundred and fifteen kilovolt system in the region covered by this particular figure, is that correct? A. Q. Yes. And so -- just so we can get our

bearings here in terms of what we're dealing with in this application, towards the center, in the middle -- towards the bottom of the page in the center of figure 2-2, do you see a box that says Churchtown? 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst A. Q. Yes. And off to the right, you see

another box that says Craryville? A. Q. Yes. And is it fair for me to say that

that is what's generally been referred to in this case, as the Churchtown/Craryville line? A. Q. Correct. Okay. And the

Churchtown/Craryville line, am I correct, connects with National Grid trunk number fifteen on the westerly side? A. Q. Correct. And there is something that's

called the Churchtown substation at that point? A. Q. A. Q. At the box marked Church. At that triangle? Yup. Okay. Correct. And then looking to the

east at Craryville, am I correct that there is a Craryville substation again at the red triangle? A. Q. Yes. And the Craryville substation

sits or is connected also to what we've identified 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 substation.

Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst as circuit nine eighty-four, correct? A. Yes. It's all circuit nine

eighty-four from Churchtown to Craryville, north up to Kline Kill. Q. I see. Okay. And that circuit

number nine eighty-four, is that owned by NYSEG? A. Q. It is. Now I see a box in about the

middle of the page that says proposed Ghent switching station. to? A. Q. Yes. And that would be the location of Do you see what I'm referring

one of the two -- one of the alternatives that we had looked at on figure 3-3, correct? A. Q. Correct. Okay. And moving further up to

the north, sort of directly above that box do you see another red triangle named Valkin? A. Q. A. Yes. Can you tell me what that is? That's National Grids' Valkin

Q.

Okay.

And if you could just 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst direct your eyes sort of up to the roughly north-easterly side of the map, there's a box there called Stephentown. referring to? A. Q. Yes. And can you identify for me what Do you see where we're

that reference is there? A. That's NYSEG's Stephentown

Q.

And it appears to me that there

is a circuit that runs generally southwest from Stephentown. Do you see that in black? A. Q. circuit for me? A. That's a thirty-four point five Yes. Are you able to identify that

kV circuit from Stephentown to New Lebanon. Q. Thank you, gentlemen. Again, I

just want to sort of get our bearings as we go forward here. Now gentlemen, you've been identified as witnesses who will sponsor Exhibit E Four to the application, is that correct? A. Correct. 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst Q. And could you get Exhibit E Four

out in front of you, please? Now were you gentlemen involved in the drafting of Exhibit E Four? A. Q. McKinney right? A. Q. Yes, sir. Okay. Thank you. And so, in It was done under my direction. Okay. I'm sorry, you are Mr.

particular, Mr. McKinney, I would direct your attention to section E-4.3, entitled need for the proposed project? A. Q. Yes. And are you generally familiar

with what's been advanced here as the alleged need for the proposed project? A. Q. Yes. Okay. And so would you like a

moment to re-read that paragraph before I ask you some questions or do you think you're comfortable with --? A. Q. No, sir. Okay. I'm comfortable.

And, so, just in layman's

terms Mr. McKinney, and referring back to figure 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst 2-2, isn't it the case that the justification for this project that's been advanced in the application is that if there was an outage of what we've identified as the Churchville/Crary line, under particular load conditions, that that would cause inadequate voltage support to the surrounding thirty-four point five kilovolt system? A. That's correct. When you look at

figure 2.2, you'll see that as we've discussed, there are two, one hundred fifteen kV sources into this area; the Churchtown to Craryville to Kline Kill line. And, then, the additional line to the

north that you identified that comes into Stephentown that from the map just flows off to the northwest. So, there's two, one hundred fifteen kV feeds into this area. And when we lose

the Churchtown to Craryville line, it also takes out the full line all the way to Kline Kill. And

that source then for all the load going all the way south into the towns of Copake and Taghkanic have to come from Stephentown. And there's an

inadequate amount of supply to do that during peak load conditions, and we have sub-marginal voltages 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst throughout the area. And at the right of -- in

high enough load levels, we would actually have to stop serving customers. Q. And Mr. McKinney, when you used

the term outage in that section E-4.3, and in your comments just now, that can include for example, a forced outage of the line? A. Q. A. Any outage. Okay. -- at the appropriate load level Forced or planned --

could cause those problems. Q. And can you just give us some

examples of what a forced outage might be? A. A forced outage could be caused

by a lightning strike, tree contact, automobile accident that brings down a conductor. that is an act of God, if you will. Q. And the line can also be taken Anything

out, it's my understanding, for planned maintenance, is that correct? A. Q. Correct. And when we talk about the outage

of the Churchville/Craryville line in context of the need for this project, is that the contingency 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst condition that NYSEG is attempting to plan for by this application? A. It's actually the Churchtown

Churchtown to Craryville, as I said,

also takes out the line to Kline Kill. So it's one line; Churchtown, Craryville to Kline Kill is the most limiting contingency. We also have a similar problem if we

were to lose the line going into Stephentown. If we lose the line coming from that northwest in Stephentown that's also a problem. It's just not as critical as loss of

Churchtown/Craryville to Klinkill. Q. And as I understand, the

description of need in the application, and correct me if I'm wrong, if that contingency were to occur during peak-load conditions, NYSEG would need to shed load in order to avert the voltage collapse that might otherwise occur. correct? A. The loss of Churchtown/Craryville Is that generally

to Kline Kill contingency would cause that to happen, correct. Q. And is it also fair for me to say 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst that the duration and number of affected customers in that instance is dependent on the nature of the outage: Where it occurred, what happened, and load

levels at the time, those kinds of thing? A. Yes. It's most directly related

to the load level at the time of the outage. Q. Okay. And does NYSEG consider

this a local reliability issue on its system? A. Q. Yes. Has this been identified as a

reliability issue by the New York Independent System Operator in any of its reliability planning studies? A. It has not. But we've identified

this before the New York I.S.O. in two different filings that we make with the New York I.S.O. on a bi-annual basis. NYSEG has identified before all stakeholders in 2009 and in 2011, that this is a critical contingency for our local system. Q. And is one of those filings for

the NYSEG that you just referred to a local transmission plan? A. Yes, it is. 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst Q. Mr. McKinney, when did NYSEG

first discover that there was this contingency that had not yet been addressed? A. I believe the first time that we

had noticed it in a planning study was in the early 1990s. We do ten-year-out studies, in general.

And it was identified as a possibility for low voltage at that time. Q. Mr. McKinney, did you assist the

company in their preparation of responses to certain discovery demands in this case? A. Q. In some cases, yes. And do you remember as you sit

here today, whether you assisted in the response to any request that had been propounded by Protect Ghent? A. subject to check. MR. HURST: Judge, you'll have to I don't believe I did. But I am

forgive me for missing the first part of the conversation. But I have a discovery exhibit that

I'd like to present the witness with, and I didn't quite hear the protocols on how we're going to go about that. 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 party? copies, yes.

Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst A.L.J. STEIN: Well, I can give

you -- I have a little sheet with the information. But I'll give you the summary. Is this an exhibit

that's already been filed or was it --? MR. HURST: Yes. This is a

pre-filed exhibit, and it's actually the company's discovery response to I.R.P.G.-1. A.L.J. STEIN: And do you have

copies for the other counsel, and for the witness, and for me? MR. HURST: I've got several

I'm not sure how many lawyers we have

in the room, but I've got some --. A.L.J. STEIN: Well, one for each

MR. HURST:

Yes. And then would you

A.L.J. STEIN:

like to have this marked for identification? MR. HURST: Yes, I would, Judge. So why don't you

A.L.J. STEIN: distribute the copies. later reference. THE REPORTER: A.L.J. STEIN:

And I'll give you this for

Thank you. So I'm going to 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst mark this Exhibit Twenty-six for identification. MR. HURST: Certainly, Judge. Because we are

A.L.J. STEIN:

reserving numbers one through twenty-five for the NYSEG application and related documents. And Counsel, if you could give us a brief description of what this exhibit is? MR. HURST: Certainly, Judge.

What's just been marked for identification as Exhibit Twenty-six is a May 28, 2013 response by the Applicant to information designated as P.G.-1, that was served on April 25, 2013. A.L.J. STEIN: MR. HURST: Thank you.

Actually Judge, while

I'm at it, I'm going to mark two more exhibits just to get that out of the way. A.L.J. STEIN: these witnesses? MR. HURST: Yes. Also, along the These are also for

same line of questioning, and also discovery responses. marked now. There's actually two, this other 800.523.7887 So, I might as well just get them all

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 marked? Judge. side.

Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst

A.L.J. STEIN: separate exhibits? MR. HURST:

I need two

Yes, that's right

A.L.J. STEIN:

And would you like

the -- let's see P.S.C., Information Request and Response. Which one do you want to be

MR. HURST:

Sure Judge.

Just for

the record, what I've just handed-up to be marked as an exhibit for identification are again the Applicant's responses to I.R.'s that were designated D.P.S. Twenty-eight, and D.P.S. Twenty-nine. The responses are dated, respect -- both dated August 8, 2013. dated July 29, 2013. A.L.J. STEIN: So we'll mark -The request

how do you want to distinguish these? Twenty-eight -- the response to -- let's see -- Exhibit Twenty-seven will be the NYSEG response to D.P.S. Twenty-eight. 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst And Exhibit Twenty-eight will be the NYSEG resonse to D.P.S. Twenty-nine. BY MR. HURST: (Cont'g.) Q. Okay, Mr. McKinney. Have you got

P.G.-1 in front of you, sir? A. Q. Yes. Okay. And that one actually has

you identified as a witness, correct? A. Q. Correct. And having had a chance to take a

Does that refresh your recollection as

to whether you had some input to the response to the P.G.-1? A. Yes. It was done under my

Q.

Now turning back to P.G.-1, Mr.

McKinney, in the first information request, generally speaking, is it fair for me to say that Protect Ghent had asked for information regarding the number and characteristics of any outages that Churchtown/Craryville line as that phrase is used by NYSEG in the application? A. Q. Yes. Okay. And can you turn to the 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst Applicant's response, please to number one? A. Q. Yes. And can you read that response

for the record, please? A. NYSEG assembled the -- the data

in the attached file Churchtown, nine eighty-four L trips dot doc from the existing data sources. other information was available. Q. And was that attached file No

Churchtown Nine eighty-four L trips dot doc prepared under your supervision? A. Q. Yes. And if you'd turn slightly on in

the company's response Mr. McKinney, do you actually see that file that we just identified for the record? A. I have to assume that the last

page of this document with the title C.C.T.P, dash, twelve, o, thirteen, PG one attachment, page one of two, and page two of two is that file. Q. Okay. And let's, sort of, take a

look at that, and perhaps you can unboggle some of the information that's there for us. A. Uh-huh. 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst Q. As I see it, this document is

broken down by year, correct? A. Q. A. Q. Correct. 2008 through 2013, right? Correct. Okay. And beginning with 2008, I

see identified in the document, it looks to me like four days, is that correct? A. Q. Could you restate that? Yes. As I look in the year 2008,

I see four dates I guess would be more accurate. A. Q. Correct. So September 10, September 11,

December 8, December 9, right? A. Q. Correct. Okay. Taking for example the

first line, 10 September 2008, are you able to interpret that language for me and tell me what information is being imparted there? A. Going through 2008, there were

outages both forced and planned on September 10. What that's saying is that the line opened there. Obviously, no other data So I have to assume that 800.523.7887

provided as far as that.

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst it was a trip and reclose. You know, it would have

just been an instantaneous loss of power. On September 1l of 2008, the same thing happened at eight twenty-nine in the morning. So those are trips and reclose on the nine eighty-four line. Q. And before you go any further,

are you able to tell me whether either of those on the 10th of 11th of September would have had any impact on NYSEG's customers? A. They should not have. You know,

I just -- it would have been an absolute momentary loss of power. Q. And let me stop you once more,

I believe I heard you testify,

please correct me if I'm wrong, that these lists would include both forced and planned outages? A. Q. Correct. Okay. Can you continue down the

list and tell me for example, what you see on the line for December 8, 2008? A. On December 8th there were some

open and reclose in the early hours of the morning. At five thirty-nine, and at six o six, there were 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst open and recloses. At approximately around -- a little after eight o'clock in the morning a line did open up, it did have a fault on the line, and it remained open until it was closed on December 9th at one thirty-one in the afternoon. Approximately fifteen hours and twenty minute outage. Q. A. Q. And how about on December 9th? That includes that time period. And so then looking in 2009, I Is that correct or

see three days listed there.

actually four days, my mistake? A. Q. Correct. Four days.

And can you just sort of walk us Just give us a sense of, you

through those again.

know, the duration of the outage in those instances? A. Uh-huh. In February, there were On February 5th,

again, momentary open and closed.

but just again, would have been momentary outages to the customers. On February 10th we had an open that was a significant outage to the line, and was 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 close. is one day? and close.

Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst not returned until eight days later, on February 19th at seventeen fifty-three hours. So the total, approximately eight days and twenty-two hours outage. Q. And do you remember offhand the

cause of that outage on that date? A. It was a fault in the

transmission cable. Q. And then moving to 2010, it looks

to me like there are two days listed, right? A. Q. Yes. And what can you tell me about

the outage that occurred on October 28th? A. That was just a momentary open

Q. A. Q.

And how about on October 29th? Same thing. Opened and reclosed.

And in 2011 it appears that there

A. Q.

Yes. And what can you tell me about

the duration of the outage in 2011? A. It was a momentary open and

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst Q. A. Q. A. And no outages in 2012, correct? Correct. And how about 2013? In 2013, on January 26th at one

forty-two in the morning, there was an opening of the transmission line for almost three hours, due to a broken pole structure. Q. Now, Mr. McKinney, if I could

direct your attention to number two in P.G.-1, I.R., number two in P.G.-1. referring to? Do you see what I'm

It begins for the period 1997-2013? A. Q. Yes. And in that -- in number two, But just by summary,

which speaks for itself.

Protect Ghent has asked for information on a number of times that NYSEG has had to engage in load shedding in the Chatham area of its Mechanicsville division, correct? A. Q. Correct. And can you please turn to the

company's response to information request, P.G.-1 subparagraph two? And can you please read that response for the record? 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst A. NYSEG did not have any record of

operator-directed load-shedding being required to resolve issues in the Chatham area. Q. And can you please define that

phrase, operator-directed, load-shedding? A. Yes. That means that a system

operator located in our facilities in the Binghamton area would physically have to push a button to open up a circuit breaker within a given substation and physically drop the load. That was not the case in these three situations. In these three situations, the

load was dropped because of the loss of line, and the operator does just the opposite; picks up as much load from that Stephentown source as possible till we get to the point of the system not having capacity to serve anymore load. So there's no operator-direct, load shedding, it's automatic load-shedding, because of the fact that you lose the line, you lose the customers. Q. It's an automatic thing.

And is it the case, Mr. McKinney,

that where we looked at the need for the project description, the load-shedding that was described 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. HURST: line.

Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst there was operator-directed, load-shedding, correct? A. Q. No. It was not.

And so when the need paragraph

speaks of ninety-nine hundred -- having to load-shed ninety-nine hundred customers, is that operator-directed or is that just a result of the outage of line? A. That's a result of the outage of

A.L.J. STEIN:

I'm sorry.

Did

you say ninety-nine thousand customers? MR. HURST: Ninety-nine hundred. Okay.

A.L.J. STEIN: (Cont'g.) Q.

And then so, the outage of the

Churchtown/Craryville line described in the need paragraph would result in customers losing load, just as they did in the examples that we -customers losing power just as we did in the examples we just reviewed? A. Any loss of the Churchtown to

Craryville to Kline Kill line at the load levels that we identified, those three different dates, 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst caused those customers to be without power for those periods of time automatically. Q. Now Mr. McKinney, if I could ask

you to look at what's been marked for identification as Exhibit Twenty-seven, which is the company's response to D.P.S.-28 Twenty-eight. Have you got that in front of

A. Q.

Yes, I do. Okay. Have you had a chance just

to give it a quick look to familiarize yourself with what it says? A. Q. Yes, I have. Have you seen this response

before today, Mr. McKinney? A. Q. Yes, I have. Now, in D.P.S.-28, it appears

that, and correct me if I'm wrong, D.P.S. staff has asked the company to provide a ten-year history of planned maintenance outages on the Churchtown/ Craryville line, is that correct? A. Q. That is correct. And then D.P.S. staff had also

asked the company to give some characteristics of 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst those outages, correct? A. Q. Correct. Okay. And as I interpret the

company's response to D.P.S.-28, and correct me if I'm wrong. I see, I think, seven instances between

2007 and 2009 of planned maintenance outages, is that correct? A. Q. Correct. And am I correct that in this

chart we can sort of make out the date, the time that the outage commenced and the duration of the outage? A. Q. Correct. And so for example, on April 23,

2007, correct me if I'm wrong, it appears to me that there was a planned maintenance outage that began at twelve twenty-six and lasted for four thousand four hundred and twenty minutes, correct? A. Q. Correct. And I did the math, and so just

in rough terms, and subject to check, that's about seventy-three point six hours? A. Q. Subject to check. Okay. So, three days plus that 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst the line was out for planned maintenance reasons? A. Q. Correct. And during that time, am I

correct that no customers were interrupted in their service? A. Q. Correct. And then when we look at

September 26, 2007, at it appears to be nine nineteen a.m. there was another planned maintenance outage that lasted seven thousand four hundred and fifty-three minutes, correct? A. Q. Correct. And again, so that's roughly five

days out of service, right? A. Q. Subject to check. And again, no customers were

interrupted during that outage, right? A. Q. Correct. And again, in -- on October 29th,

2007, beginning at, I believe, that's three forty-one p.m., there was a four thousand thirty-seven minute outage, correct? A. Q. Correct. And again, no customers 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst

A. Q.

Correct. And so rather than having me go

through the last four on this page, as I'm sure Judge Stein will appreciate it, is it generally fair for me to state that during all of these planned maintenance outages that are listed in response to D.P.S.-28, customers service was not interrupted? A. That is correct. All of our

planned outages are done during off peak times when the load is not critical, and our simulations show that taking Churchtown/Craryville, nine eight-four line out of service will not have to cause us to drop a load. MR. BLOW: for the interruption. But I was just wondering if for those who may not understand the subject to check procedure, it might be helpful to explain how that works. MR. HURST: Sure. Do you want me Your Honor, pardon me

A.L.J. STEIN:

Please. 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst MR. HURST: Thanks, Steve. Sure.

What I'm saying is because the times of the outages on D.P.S.-28 were quantified in terms of total minutes, that I had actually done the math, and divided those minutes by sixty to figure out the number of hours, and gave Mr. McKinney, you know, my slightly better than seat-of-the-pants estimate of how many hours or days the outage may have been. And so his agreement is subject to one of us going back and actually doing the math. And if there is a correction, either -- you

know, I will note that for the record, or Mr. McKinney will note that for the record at some point going forward. So his agreement here today, is subject to his ability to actually do the math and confirm that I've done it correctly. MR. BLOW: My understanding is

that if the witness does not correct any answer that he has taken subject to check, within a period of time, such as I think usually five or ten days, it is taken to be correct. Is that your understanding, your 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst

A.L.J. STEIN: MR. METCALFE:

Yes. Could I just ask

that five to ten days following release of the transcript? A.L.J. STEIN: We can certainly

establish a protocol for this hearing that would allow counsel, let's say five days from the publication of the transcript or the release of the transcript? be fine. Or if you prefer ten days, that would

So we say, ten days from the release of

the transcript. MR. METCALFE: fine, your Honor. A.L.J. STEIN: All corrections to That would be

the transcript should be made in that period of time and requested including any subsequent recalculation of arithmetic or any other answers given by witnesses where they did not have the information available at their fingertips. But we're willing to assent to it under these conditions. MR. BLOW: Your Honor, my only But when is -800.523.7887

concern is not for this hearing.

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Honor. BY MR. HURST:

Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst the next hearing, I don't know how the briefing schedules going to come out, but ten days after the publication of -- the release of transcript might be almost at the time the brief is due. That Just

depends on the briefing schedule obviously. to -- just noting that thought. MR. METCALFE:

And NYSEG would

have no objection to tightening that fine period for the period following that hearing. A.L.J. STEIN: So for this

hearing, we'll say ten days, and without prejudice to shortening the time period following the second hearings. Please proceed. MR. HURST: Thank you, your

(Cont'g.) Q. Now, Mr. McKinney, towards the

end of your last response we were discussing planned maintenance outages, I believe that you responded, and please correct me if I'm wrong in sum and substance, that by monitoring load levels on the Churchville -- Churchtown/Craryville line, NYSEG was able to schedule its planned maintenance 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst at a time when the line could be taken out without affecting customer service. Is that generally correct? A. Yes. That's correct. We have a

simulation program within our energy-control center that they can take the real-time information from the system, and do a simulated outage to look for problems of sub-marginal voltages, or thermal overloads on transmission lines. They check and make sure that the system is secure before they do any planned outage on the system. Q. Would it also be the case, Mr.

McKinney that below a certain load level a forced outage of the Churchtown/Craryville line may not affect customer service? A. Q. That is correct. Mr. McKinney, if I could turn

attention to what's been marked for identification here as Exhibit Twenty-eight, which is the company's response to D.P.S.-29, just let me know when you have that in front of you. A. Q. Okay. And again, just in summary, and 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst you can certainly take your time to review if you needed to, Mr. McKinney, D.P.S.-29 staff had asked for the company, among other things, to provide a ten-year history of forced outages on the Churchtown/Craryville line, correct? A. Q. That is correct. And also, to give certain

characteristics of those outages as in the previous information request, right? A. Q. That's correct. And as far as I see in the and

company's response; I see three things, correct me if I'm wrong:

Number one, the company

doesn't have the data beyond 2008 that would be responsive to the request concerning forced outages, right? A. Q. Prior to 2008, correct. And number two, I see one forced

outage of nine hundred and twenty minutes on December 8, 2008, right? A. Q. Correct. And then a second forced outage

on February 10, 2009, correct? A. That is correct. 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst Q. And the forced outage on February

10, 2009 lasted roughly eight or nine days, right? A. Q. A. Q. Correct -And --- almost nine days. -- almost nine days. And was

that the sort of -- we had reviewed that in response to P.G.-1, hadn't we? that lasted that duration? A. Q. That is correct. And can you, again, just tell me That same outage

the reason for that outage? A. It was a fault in the underground

I would add that as we reviewed the

response to P.G.-1, we also identified the third outage that happened in January of 2013. So there's actually been three forced outages since 2008 on that transmission facility that caused us to have to stop serving load. Q. Okay. So there's one more outage

listed on your response to P.G.-1, than is listed in D.P.S.-29, right? A. That is correct. The outage on 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst January 26, 2013 that lasted almost three hours. Q. Okay. Mr. McKinney, you may not

know the answer to this question but, why was it that in response to P.G.-1, all they received was the table. Whereas your response D.P.S.-29 -- 28

and 29, the information was sort of parsed out and had much more detail? A. I don't know. I didn't review

the response to D.P.S.-29. Q. Okay. And just referring to

D.P.S.-29 again Mr. McKinney, it appears that in both instances there was a temporary interruption of service to four thousand five hundred and seven Craryville customers as listed here, right? A. Q. Correct. Mr. McKinney, do you know if

there's ever been a time when nine thousand nine hundred NYSEG customers had lost service due to an outage of the Churchtown/Craryville line? A. There has not as far as I'm aware

Q.

And do you know, Mr. McKinney, if

NYSEG has ever incurred any fines or penalties for not resolving the single contingency issue that 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst we've discussed here so far this morning? A. I'm not aware of any. It does

impact our two metrics that the P.S.C. does measure NYSEG on, what is called the Caidi, C-A-I-D-I, which is the duration of outages, and Saifi, which is the S-A-I-F-I, the frequency of outages. Those both were significantly impacted by these outages. Those metrics we are

measured against, we have certain criteria that we have to operate the system to. I'm not aware that

as a result of these outages, that NYSEG paid any fines or penalties as a result of those metrics. Q. Do you know if NYSEG is under an

order from the P.S.C. to remedy the contingency condition that we've discussed here today? A. Q. I'm not aware that we are. No.

Turning back to the Article Seven

application, and if you would Section E-4.5, it's page E-4-6, you can just let me know when you got there. A. Q. Okay. And let me ask you Mr. McKinney

before I ask you about the page that I've just directed you to, between 2007-2013 it indicates 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst that we had Hurricane Irene affected part of the area, is that right? A. I'm aware of Hurricane Irene. I

don't know of its impact on the Mechanicville division. We lost load in every one of our

operating divisions during that storm. Q. And also, Hurricane Sandy came

through more recently, right? A. Q. Correct. And a couple of Nor'easters

probably during the winters in that timeframe? A. Q. Subject to check. Turning back, Mr. McKinney, if

you will, to section E-4.5 of the application. I'm looking at the last sentence there, where it says a delay in the construction schedule will expose as many as nine thousand nine hundred NYSEG customers to increase potential loss of service due to this contingency. Do you see that sentence? A. Q. Yes, I do. Now, those nine thousand nine

hundred NYSEG customers are currently exposed to that potential loss of service due to the 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst contingency, right? A. That is correct. For over four

thousand hours a year. Q. And they have been so exposed

since presumably the problem was first discovered, which I think you said was back in the -- well maybe you can remind me again of what you said about --. A. In the early 1990s is when we

first identified the problem. Q. A. As --. We've since taken steps to

correct that problem. We've done reinforcements to the system to increase the voltage to delay having to do this project until now. Q. Right. I guess what I what --

maybe you could help me to understand this, Mr. McKinney, is this -- a delay in the construction schedule would maintain the status quo, wouldn't it? A. Absolutely not. Absolutely not. The

Load grows on a daily basis.

load continues to grow in this area, and every time 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst that an additional hour of exposure is above the thresholds, you expose these customers for another hour. So those, you know, over four thousand hours of exposure grows every year. And

in 2013, we hit a new peak for this area, and the load continues to grow. So, it absolutely is a direct correlation to increase the exposure. Saying that

these customers are lucky is not what we do as a planning department. We identify loss of one

fifteen kV facilities as part of our criteria. It's in violation of that It's the number one exposed area for the It has been for more than a handful

NYSEG system. of years.

No other area in our system is exposed

for thousands of hours to potential loss of load. Q. Now, Mr. McKinney, you just

described or suggested that the company had taken certain steps to reduce the number of hours of exposure due to this contingency, is that correct? A. Q. That is correct. And can you generally describe

for me what some of those measures were the company 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst has implemented? A. Yes. We've taken measures, as

far as, changing fixed taps on transformers to allow them to boost the voltage more than what they have been in the past. We've also done a lot of both fixed and switched capacitors in the area that allows for voltage support, as well. This is mainly a voltage support issue such that we have sub-marginal voltages when this contingency happens, and for that reason we can't serve, you know, the load above a certain threshold. Q. And direct your attention back, This time the

Mr. McKinney, to I.R.P.G.-1.

company's response to sub-paragraph three of that request -- let me know when you get that back in front of you. A. Q. Okay. Mr. McKinney, the company's

response in -- to sub-paragraph three of the P.G.-1 that discusses some of the measures the company has implemented to reduce the exposures, correct? A. Yes. 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst Q. And it appears to me, again

subject to check, that the company has been able to reduce exposures by about twenty-five percent? A. We reduced it from six thousand

forty-four hours to forty-five hundred hours. Q. And by among other things,

installing capacitor bank -- cap banks? A. Q. That's correct. And do you know, Mr. McKinney, if

the company has any studies regarding the additional use of capacitor banks in order to further drive down the number of hours of exposure? A. We have as part of our normal

planning scenarios, always looked at the addition of capacitors to solve any voltage problem. In this case, it would be reasonable for the planning engineer to come to the point where he or she sees where capacitors no longer provide the benefit that they used to. We call that the knee of the curve for the voltage capability in that area. The

studies have shown that over the last twenty years that we are at that area where you no longer get the benefit of capacitors that you normally would 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst when the system is not near that operating point, that knee of the curve. So you have diminishing returns when you add additional capacitance at a level, and that's where we are in that Mechanicville area. Q. And, Mr. McKinney, is your

testimony that there are actually studies by the company that establish the conclusion that you just expressed? A. There's not a specific study that

It would be part of the planner's

normal steps as he or she goes through analysis to come up with alternatives. It's certainly one that as a manager, I would have asked have you looked at the capacitors, have you determined that no additional benefit comes out of capacitors by adding them to the system. The engineer that did these studies at the time, you know, would have satisfied my question, and we would have moved on to other alternatives. Q. Mr. McKinney, earlier we were

discussing planned maintenance outages, we 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst discussed a little bit about sort of monitoring load levels in the system. Do you remember that part of the

A. Q.

Yes. And I just want to divert for a

moment if I can, Mr. McKinney, and talk to you a little bit about smart-grid technology. Is that a phrase that you're generally familiar with? A. I'm familiar with the phrase,

Q.

Okay.

And for purposes of this

discussion, I understand that there were nuances and variances, and I'm not going to hold you to a definition or ask you to define it. But what I

mean, is sort of a modernized electric grid that uses information and communications technology to gather and act on information. Such as, you know,

load, supply, you know, those kinds of things in an automated fashion. I mean is that an acceptable

general definition for you? A. definition, yes. 800.523.7887 That could be a general

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst Q. And is it fair for me to state

that there are smart-grid technologies that help monitor load more closely or more accurately? A. Yes. There's smart-grid

technology that can monitor load at a given residence. As I said, we monitor the load at The So we

various points within the division.

substations mainly, at this point in time.

know what the voltage is, what the megawatts, what the mega bars are that are going through the system at, I believe, three second intervals. that information in real time. We then, you know, use our simulation tools to represent the end customer that's fed out of all those substations to then reflect what would be the actual voltage at that residence. So right now, while we're not We have

monitoring that end residence and what their voltage is, we have a very good electrical model that shows us a simulation of what their voltage would be. Q. And, so, when we talk about the

Mechanicville division, is it your understanding that NYSEG has implemented what can generally be 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst referred to as smart-grid technologies in that division? A. No, I would not. As I said, my

definition of smart grid includes the monitoring of actual customers on a real time basis. I think

that's the 2013 definition of smart grid. Q. And, is it fair to say that one,

at least of the purported benefits of the smart-grid technology, is enhanced or improved fault detection? A. Yes. I think that real-time

metering along with additional monitoring, and information from a G.I.S., a Global Information System, G.I.S. standpoint, would allow for better fault detection. Q. And is it also fair to say, just

that in general, smart-grid technologies have been touted as assisting with efficiency. the demand-side management. A. That is a claim made by For example,

smart-grid technology folks, and I'm aware of its claim. Q. And is there also a piece of

smart-grid technology that deals with the 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst substation automation? A. Q. Yes. And as far as using smart grid

technologies for demand-side management, do you know if NYSEG implements anything like that in the Mechanicville division? A. There's no demand-side management

programs that are offered across all of our residential customers. We do have programs that we

have with our commercial industrial programs. So a commercial industrial customer can sign up for specific rates that allow us to interrupt them in certain conditions. We also have the New York Independent System Operator, also has a program independent of NYSEG that looks for these special resources on the system that are available should a system emergency arise. Q. Now, Mr. McKinney, shifting gears

a little bit, and I'm going to jump around a bit just to cover the ground I need to cover. Am I correct that NYSEG is a participant in an entity called Transco? MR. METCALFE: I object, your 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Honor. BY MR. HURST: actually. Honor.

Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst It's outside the scope. A.L.J. STEIN: Mr. Hurst do you

have -- are you intending to link us up to the --? MR. HURST: Yah, Judge. I am,

Well, let's -- I'll withdraw the question and I'll rephrase. How's that? Thank you.

A.L.J. STEIN: (Cont'g.) Q.

Mr. McKinney, are you familiar

with any other transmission projects that may affect Columbia County that are -- that have been announced in any fashion? A. Columbia County? Q. Another, for example, a hundred What's your definition of affect

and fifteen kilovolt transmission line that may be routed through Columbia County in whole or in part? MR. METCALFE: I object, your I don't see

It's still outside the scope.

the connection. MR. HURST: I think the witness And NYSEG

identified system planning, Judge.

currently has other plans for a hundred and fifteen 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst kilovolt transmission lines including through Columbia County. And so I'm attempting to find out

whether those lines would rely on any of these facilities or whether these facilities could rely on any of those lines. So I think there's a direct connection to examining alternatives. MR. METCALFE: system planning. He's an expert on

But the scope of his testimony

and the scope of the exhibits he supports relates to this project, and its need. I still don't see

the connection between where Mr. Hurst is going, and the need for this project. MR. HURST: Judge, we are here

trying to explore among other things, the opportunity to find alternatives. And NYSEG, the

same company as the Applicant here, is the direct sponsor of another proposal, a portion of which may be in Columbia County. And so I think there is a

direct connection and relevance between Mr. McKinney, as a system planner, and he's already testified to his knowledge of the regional hundred and fifteen kV system based on PG 2-2. question --. 800.523.7887 And the

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 request.) BY MR. HURST:

Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst A.L.J. STEIN: MR. HURST: I'll allow it.

Thanks. There's no NYSEG

MR. METCALFE:

project that is outside of this proposed project sponsored by NYSEG. MR. HURST: answer back, please? (The reporter complied with the Could you read that

(Cont'g.) Q. Mr. McKinney, are you familiar

with any other transmission projects that are proposed in Columbia County that may rely on any of the facilities that have been proposed in this application? A. Q. None. And Mr. McKinney, are you aware

of any opportunity for the single contingency that we've been discussing to be addressed by any other transmission project that may have been proposed in Columbia County? A. Q. No. Mr. McKinney, if I could turn and in particular, 800.523.7887

your attention back to P.G.-1

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Twenty-nine. supervision?

Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst question three, which we reviewed briefly earlier. A. Q. Okay. Now, in the -- in the question

Protect Ghent made reference to some testimony that NYSEG had filed with the Public Service Commission in 2009. Do you see that reference there? A. Q. Yes. And did you review that testimony

when you prepared or supervised the response to subsection three? A. Q. I did not. Did someone under your

A.

Yes. MR. HURST: I ask that that be

marked for identification, Judge. A.L.J. STEIN: So this is -- this

will be marked Exhibit Number Thirty for identification. THE REPORTER: Looks like number

It's number Twenty-nine. A.L.J. STEIN: Okay. And this is

a document -- forty-three page document. 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 in evidence.) BY MR. HURST: more copies?

Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst Can you please describe it? MR. HURST: Sure. For the

record, Judge, what I've just handed to counsel, and I believe Mr. Metcalfe will pass it along to his client, is forty-three pages of pre-filed direct testimony in NYSEG's 2009 rate case before the Public Service Commission, which was exclusively referenced in P.G.-1 subparagraph Three. And so presumably, was relied on in part

for the response to that file I.R. MR. METCALFE: Do you have any

A.L.J. STEIN:

Mr. Hurst, I would

like you to, at some point, provide the case number for this case. I see it's not on the document. It

would make it easier to have it identified in the record. MR. HURST: Will do so, Judge. But we'll get I

haven't got it at my fingertips. that for the record.

(Exhibit Twenty-nine was marked

(Cont'g.) Q. Now, Mr. McKinney, the companies 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst answer to interrogatory P.G.-1 subparagraph Three, was connected to the pre-filed direct testimony that I just handed you, correct? A. Q. Correct. And we're actually explaining

some of the differences in the number of hours that were -- number of hours of exposure that were in the direct testimony versus that which is in the application, right? A. Q. Correct. Now, Mr. McKinney, if I could ask

you to turn please, to page eleven of what's been marked for identification as Exhibit Twenty-nine. A. Q. Yes. And do you see the description

beginning at about four of the Valkin to Kline Kill view a hundred and fifteen vK transmission line project? A. Q. Yes. And if you look down from

approximately lines eleven through fifteen on page eleven, do you see a description of why the Valkin to Kline Kill, hundred and fifteen kV transmission line is needed to improve reliability? 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst A. Q. Yes, I do. And Mr. McKinney, do you know

offhand if the Valkin to Kline Kill, hundred and fifteen kV transmission line project described between lines four and fifteen on page eleven, was a project that would also resolve the single contingency that we've been discussing here today? A. Q. Yes, it is. And Mr. McKinney, were you

employed by the company in 2009? A. Q. Yes. And do you remember the company

proposing the Valkin to Kline Kill project in its pre-filed direct testimony in this rate case? A. Q. Yes. And Mr. McKinney, is it fair for

me to state that the proposal, or that which was set forth in the rate case, was based on certain feasibility or other system planning studies conducted by the company before it was proposed in the rate case? A. Q. Yes. And are you familiar with some of

those studies having been conducted back in 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst November of 2008 or thereabouts? A. Yes. A.L.J. STEIN: Mr. Hurst, you

have pretty much exhausted your sixty minutes. So, can you give me a sense how much additional time you'd like to use? MR. HURST: Judge, I've got

probably about probably ten, fifteen minutes tops. A.L.J. STEIN: MR. GREENBERG: Okay. Judge, if I may

I don't think that I'm going to be using the I asked for only thirty

entirety of my hour.

minutes, so I'm more than happy to provide additional time that I was scheduled for to Mr. Hurst. A.L.J. STEIN: MR. BLOW: That's fine.

Your Honor, while Are these --

these exhibits are being passed out.

may I inquire whether these are pre-filed exhibits or additional exhibits? MR. HURST: MR. BLOW: This is a pre-filed. Thank you. Sorry, I

couldn't keep track of all the --. MR. HURST: Yeah. And actually 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Thirty, right. documents. Yes.

Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst Steve, I think that all but twenty-nine, which was that direct testimony, were pre-filed. MR. BLOW: So the last one,

Exhibit Twenty-nine, was -- is an additional exhibit which according to the procedures outlined by the Judge, you're going to be providing? MR. HURST: That's right. You'll be filing

A.L.J. STEIN:

it -- a true copy electronically with the commissions -- for the commission's website? MR. HURST: Yes. Can you -- so

A.L.J. STEIN:

we're going to mark this Exhibit Thirty for identification. document of -MR. HURST: Sure, Judge. -- or several And can you describe it, it's a

A.L.J. STEIN:

There's several different page numbers.

MR. HURST:

This I believe is

We're up to Thirty? A.L.J. STEIN: MR. HURST: Exhibit Thirty. Exhibit

Okay.

Thirty, Judge, is the company's response to 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 evidence.) BY MR. HURST: pages?

Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst I.R.D.P.S., dash, twenty-two. July 26, 2013. It's reply date is

The request date is July 21, 2013. A.L.J. STEIN: And it's how many

MR. HURST:

The response is two

pages, with several attachments Judge, that are not paginated. pages it is. A.L.J. STEIN: MR. HURST: Okay. So I couldn't tell you exactly how many

And I take it from

the witness designation that my questions here would be directed to Mr. Lynch. It's up to you

guys, but that's just what the witnesses designation says. Ready? Okay. Okay.

MR. LYNCH:

(Exhibit Thirty was marked in

(Cont'g.) Q. Gentlemen, if I could -- first of

all I'd ask you -- I guess Mr. Lynch, did you participate in or supervise the preparation of responses to what's been marked as Exhibit Thirty? A. Q. (Lynch) Yes, I did.

And so if you could turn, Mr. 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst Lynch, to attached what's been designated as Attachment A, to Exhibit Thirty. A. Q. Uh-huh. Yes.

For the record, is a report

titled, a proposed reinforcement of the NYSEG Mechanicville Division, Chatham service area, new hundred and fifteen kV line from the NYSEG Kline Kill substation to the National Grid Valkin substation. Have I accurately stated the title, Mr. Lynch? A. Q. You have. Now, Mr. Lynch, is it fair for me

to conclude from that title, that Attachment A is a system planning study of the Valkin to Kline Kill option, some language of which I just reviewed with Mr. McKinney out of the pre-filed direct testimony? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. So the same project, right? Yes. And this report was prepared in

November of 2008, correct? A. Q. Correct. And, Mr. Lynch, if you turn to 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst the first page of Attachment A, which begins with the executive summary and introduction, and I understand there are redactions here. About midway

down, do you see where it says several new transmission line construction alternatives were considered? A. Q. I see that. Okay. So, is it fair for me to

conclude that Attachment A compares and maybe contrasts various system alternatives to address the single contingency that is at issue here that we've been discussing today? A. Yes. (Mr. McKinney) This study was

done under my direction, and there were several alternatives considered. Q. Mr. McKinney, I don't think you

were designated as a witness on this one. A. It was done under my supervision,

not Mr. Lynch's supervision. Q. So do you think that's a mistake

in designation then? A. No. He developed a response. He

is now the supervisor of that group.

I was in 2008 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst when the study was completed. Q. Then, whoever's going to answer

the question, if you could turn to page four of Attachment A. there. A. Q. I don't know what is page four. It's four pages in. It begins And let me know when you've got

about three quarters of the way down, there's a statement that says, rejected alternative one. A. Q. A. Q. Yes. Okay. Yes. Okay. And rejected alternative So are you with me there?

one, if I'm correct -- well, why don't you tell me what rejected alternative one consisted of? A. It states that it's a proposal to

build a new one fifteen kV line from NYSEG's Kline Kill substation to a new National Grid substation adjacent to the one fifteen kV National Grid's lines from Greenbush to Churchtown. Q. Okay. And if you still have

Figure 2-2 in front of you, Mr. McKinney, can you just identify for us the Greenbush to Churchtown one fifteen kV N.G. line? 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst A. How would you like me to do that? Why don't you point to them,

You have the pointer. and I'll confirm.

MR. METCALFE: really doesn't help the record. A.L.J. STEIN: MR. HURST:

Your Honor, that

No.

Are you able to point Just for my own The button

to it from there, Mr. McKinney?

edification so I can see where it is. on the bottom. MR. McKINNEY:

The button on the

A.L.J. STEIN: MR. McKINNEY:

Here on the side. Yes, I know I'm

looking down at this point in time, trying to find Greenbush. Greenbush is off of this map, but it's the one fifteen kV National Grid corridor that we mentioned before. This drawing right here,

sorry that it shows up on the map, I believe it was the figure that Mr. Hurst provided. BY MR. HURST: Q. A. 3-3? 3-3. It's the north/south one 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst fifteen kV corridor that follows the river. So on

this map, if -- it would again follow the river --. A.L.J. STEIN: referring to the figure 2-2? MR. McKINNERY: confuse you, your Honor. I was Totally --. I'm sorry to And you're

A.L.J. STEIN: A. (McKinney)

I was pointing to

I was pointing to figure 3.1, because

that's on the record already, and then figure 2.2 it follows the river, and goes through the Valkin substation, and flows south into NYSEG's -- or close to Greenport, which is the connection where the line into Churchtown and Craryville comes from on an east/west basis. BY MR. HURST: (Cont'g.) Q. A. And maybe -Mainly this corridor going north

Q.

-- and maybe I should've done

this first, but is the Greenbush/Churchtown line the same as National Grid trunk number fifteen? A. There are multiple lines there.

There's the fourteen and fifteen line to look at. 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst Q. And in the 2008 system planning

study alternative one was rejected, is that correct, Mr. McKinney? A. Q. Yes. And one of the reasons it was

rejected is because it was more expensive than the Valkin to Kline Kill alternative, is that right? A. Yes. That's what this study

Q.

Okay.

Now, if you would turn the

page Mr. McKinney or Mr. Lynch, and you see the sentence that begins also? A. Q. Yes. Can you read that for the record,

A.

Also the associated new one

fifteen kV line is nine point five miles in length, such that any routing alternatives would cause the line length to exceed or equal ten miles, could trigger the need for an Article Seven application. Q. Now, in terms of system planning,

Mr. McKinney, is the need to file an Article Seven application seen as a detriment in the evaluation process? 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst A. Q. A. Absolutely. And why is that? Because it's costly and time

Q.

And then Mr. McKinney, do you see

rejected alternative two, just beneath that paragraph? A. Q. Yes. And is it correct for me to

state, just in summary just to move things along a little bit, that that alternative was the construction of a new hundred and fifteen kilovolt line from NYSEG's Stephentown substation to the Kline Kill substation? A. Q. That is correct. And that's the same substation

that is the sort of easterly terminus to the project we're dealing with here today, right? A. Q. Correct. Okay. On the north end.

And again, that

alternative was rejected because it was more expensive than the Valkin to Kline Kill solution? A. Q. That's correct. And there were some other reasons 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst listed there too, in addition to the need to file an Article Seven application, right? A. Q. That is correct. And rejected alternative three,

again, I'm just going to lay it out there just in the interest of time, that would be the construction of a new Churchtown to Craryville transmission line, correct? A. Q. Correct. And just clarify for me, Mr.

McKinney; would that be a line in addition to the one that exist now? A. Q. Yes. So, that would create a double

circuit on Churchtown/Craryville? A. It would create two circuits,

Q.

Okay.

And again, that

alternative was rejected because it was, again, more expensive than the Valkin to Kline Kill solution, correct? A. Q. Correct. And if you look at the first page

of Attachment A, Mr. McKinney, not the title page, 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst the page with the executive summary, it says there that on at least two occasions --. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. I'm not with you. Okay. Did you go back to the beginning? I am, yes. Okay. Okay.

And that page states in a couple

of places, that of the three alternatives reviewed by the company in 2008, the Valkin to Kline Kill alternative was the most economical solution, right? A. Correct. We balance economics

and performance both, and measure, and weigh them both in coming up with the best solution that meets the customer's needs at the minimum cost. Q. And now, Mr. McKinney, this is

where the lack of pagination is really going to get me, but if I could get you to turn to Attachment B to the company's response, which it's titled system planning study report. Q. And do you see the description of

the alternative in attachment B, Mr. McKinney? A. Yes. 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst Q. And can you tell me, is the

alternative described in the description section of attachment B, one of the alternatives that were considered in attachment A? A. Q. It was the proposed alternative. And, so that is again, the Valkin

to Kline Kill alternative? A. Q. Yes. And so attachment B again,

reviews the other two alternatives that were reviewed in attachment A, and rejects them as, for among other reasons, too costly, right? A. That's correct. Based on the

information that we had.

System planners will

create alternatives based on existing system layouts. All those alternatives, you know,

considered the fact that we were going from a substation to another substation. Q. Now, of those three alternatives,

Mr. McKinney, which one would you say is closest to the alternative that we're currently considering on the application here today? A. Q. The recommended alternative. The Valkin to Kline Kill? 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst A. Yes. As the -- even at this

point in time, 2008-2009 time period, we had planned to interconnect to the National Grid Valkin substation, as I just stated. We go from existing

substation to existing substation. Through our discussions with National Grid, and plan, and studies, you now, we mutually agreed that the new Ghent switching stations, is the preferred locations as opposed to going into National Grid's Valkin substation. But they are one and the same, terminal to terminal. with one fifteen kV. They both go to Kline Kill It was -- the difference

between NYSEG's proposal, and this article seven, and the studies are the terminal on the National Grid side, whether it be the Valkin substation, or a point further south on the fifteen line, which for a routing standpoint ends up being the proposed Ghent switching station. Q. And then Mr. McKinney, if you

would turn to Attachment C of the company's response? A. Q. Yes. Am I correct that that appears to 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst be excerpts from the company's 2009 transmission file? A. Q. Yes. And in -- the company had

proposed there, a direct connection between the Valkin substation and the Kline Kill substation, right? A. The page you proposed is blank.

Are you looking four pages in? Q. A. Q. Yes. Yes. -- says Mechanicville division There's a title --

problems slash recommended reinforcements? A. Yes. At that point in time the

National Grid terminal was still proposed by NYSEG to be the Valkin substation. Q. Okay. Again, in the interest of

time, Mr. McKinney, isn't it the case that the direct connection between Valkin and Kline Kill remained, for the lack of a better term, a live option with the company, until sometime in late 2010? A. Subject to check the documents.

It was probably around 2010, yes. 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst MR. HURST: questioning, Judge. Last round of

I just have three exhibits to

get into, and then we'll just -- we're done. A.L.J. STEIN: We'll take a break

I will mark for identification, Exhibit Thirty-one, a one-page document, the D.P.S. 3-3 information request and responses. And as

Exhibit number Thirty-two, one-page document consisting of D.P.S. information request number twenty-one and response. MR. HURST: Thank you, your

(Exhibit Thirty-one and Thirty-two were marked in evidence) BY MR. HURST: (Cont'g.) Q. Mr. McKinney, Mr. Lynch, if I

could get you to turn, please to section 3.5.2 of the application? Just let me know when you have got your finger on that part. A. Q. (McKinney) Okay.

Do you see the -- about

three-quarters of the way down on page 3-1, there's 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst a sentence -- well withdrawn. Section 3.5.2 discusses the connection between the Kline Kill substation and the Valkin substation that we just reviewed, right? A. Q. Yes. And it says, for the record, this

approach was studied and rejected by National Grid due to congestion that developed in substation, correct? A. Q. Correct. And now, Mr. McKinney, if I could

just return your attention to what's been pre-marked for identification as Exhibit Thirty-one, which is information request D.P.S.-3, with a reply date of May 2, 2013. that in front of you? A. Q. Yes. Now the company was asked to Have you got

explain the congestion at Valkins -- National Grid's Valkin substation that caused the alternative to be rejected, correct? A. Q. Correct. And can you read the company's

response to that information request? 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst A. NYSEG does not have a detailed

explanation of the congestion at National Grid's Valkin substation. A list of the contacts between NYSEG and National Grid on the Valkin connection option is provided in NYSEG's response to request for additional information. Q. Okay. Thank you, Mr. McKinney.

And the answer goes on, but in the interest of time, I'm just going to stop you there. And then staff had also asked -- in their second I.R. in D.P.S.-3

to describe all transmission in substation where it would be required for connection of the Kline Kill substation, and the Valkin substation, correct? A. Q. That is correct. And is it fair for me to say that

the company's response was that it had no description because it had not prepared a list of the work required to make those connections? A. NYSEG did not prepare a list of

We had a meeting with National

Grid -- we actually had several meetings with 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst

But, at the point when they rejected our connection into Valkin substation, they didn't provide a detailed documentation that they gave to NYSEG at all. They moved forward with

a proposal to interconnect directly to the fifteen line somewhere south of the Valkin substation. Q. Okay. And Mr. McKinney, you keep

repeating that National Grid rejected the Valkin solution. Is that -- am I hearing you correctly? A. Absolutely. It's their

They can decide who connects and who

Q.

Okay.

Just bear with me here for

Actually, Mr. McKinney, have you got before you the company's deficiency letter response? A. Q. I do. Okay. And -- okay. If I could

direct your attention, Mr. McKinney, based on your response you've just given as to National Grid's alleged rejection of the Valkin alternative, to the company's response to information request A. 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst Actually, I'm sorry, Mr. McKinney, that was incorrect. To the company's attachment twelve C, which is the response to deficiency number twelve. A. Twelve C, map showing location of

sensitive archeological sites? Q. No. I've got two pages of emails

between yourself and Mr. Don Natz (phonetic spelling) at National Grid. A. You said deficiency number

Deficiency number twelve is having to do

with maps. Q. Okay. Mr. McKinney, we're in

attachment twelve C to deficiency response twelve, correct? A. Q. Correct. Okay. And what you're looking at

there is a series of email transmittals, some of which you yourself were copied on, right? A. Q. Yes. Okay. Do you see one that's It appears

dated December 14th, 2010 on page one?

to be from an individual named Bilgion Dunamets 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst (phonetic spelling). A. Q. Yes. And who is Mr. Dunamets, Mr.

A. Q.

National Grid employee. Okay. And do you see in -- and

you're copied on this email, right, on December 14, 2010? A. Q. Yes. I was.

And do you remember receiving the Do you remember this

email on that date? conversation? A. Q.

No, I do not. If you looked at Mr. Dunamets'

second paragraph -- withdrawn. Who's that Edguardo Manensala (phonetic spelling)? A. this application. Q. And so in the second paragraph, He was my engineer that developed

on December 14th, 2010, is it fair for me to say that Mr. Dunamets is asking Mr. Manensala whether NYSEG has picked one of the two options? Option one to connect to Valkin, 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst option two build a new substation close to the number fifteen line right-of-way. A. That's what the email states.

Q.

Okay.

And so at least, as of

December 14th, 2010, the choice appeared to be NYSEG's, is that correct? A. Bilgion Dunamets. MR. HURST: further questions. A.L.J. STEIN: Thank you. I Thanks, Judge. No That's certainly the opinion of

actually would like to follow-up with a couple of brief questions, and then I think we'll take a break. Could I trouble any of you to just give a very brief explanation about voltage support? Why it's necessary and what levels are Just so that we fill out the record in

necessary?

that respect. MR. McKINNEY: Sure. Your Honor,

when the system has a loss of a source, the supply isn't strong enough. If we squeezed a hose, it's Okay? So at that end 800.523.7887

not going to spray as far.

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst there's a deficiency of water. happens with electricity. The same thing

Such that if -- if you

squeeze down the supply, the voltage won't last as long. As it continues further down the line, the voltage drops off. Okay? It's a -- it's

a mathematical calculation that says, the further you go, the voltage will drop unless it's acted upon by another source. So, as that voltage drops as you go down that transmission line or distribution line in front of your home, something has to act on it for it to go back up. So one of the things you can

do, is put capacitors on the system. So, as we go down rural roads, or even down downtown streets, we could put capacitors that will help boost the voltage. It's just,

again, an electrical characteristics of the capacitor that allows the voltage to go up. can only do so much, and then it's no longer efficient. We can put more and more capacitors out there, and it will continue to build the voltage. But you get to that point of 800.523.7887 They

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst diminishing returns where adding another capacitor, you don't get the same return for, you know, what you got when you went out there initially. So as that voltage drops, you get to the point where it's sub-marginal. And when

that voltage is sub-marginal, that can cause damage to both the company's equipment, and to customer's equipment. That's where we have brownouts, the lights go orange, things like that. That is

causing damage to a lot of motors, and things like that. drops. It gets very high current when that voltage So it -- we don't allow ourselves to get So, that's voltage

into that operating condition. drop. A.L.J. STEIN: is very helpful. specific.

Thank you.

That

My other question is very

I believe at the beginning of Mr. Hurst's questioning, there was a brief discussion about the I.S.O., and were you saying that you currently have some filings or an application for the I.S.O.? MR. McKINNEY: We don't have an 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst application, your Honor. We are required through the Federal Energy Regulatory Commision to make public our local transmission plans. Those areas of the

system that the New York I.S.O. does not study, those lower voltage areas, like the Mechanicville area. And we are required by FERC to put those

forward, and present those on a biannual basis to all the stakeholders to level the playing field, to allow other entities to come forward to say that we have a better plan to fix your problem, to allow generators to come forward, D.S.M. folks that want to, you know, try to, you know, bring all the residential customers together to lower the peak. Anything like that, it's FERC's way of making sure that the playing field is level at low voltage areas. So on a bi-annual basis we make those presentations to all the stakeholders. All

of those studies, including the studies that we reviewed today, are posted on the New York I.S.O. webpage. They're also posted on the NYSEG webpage. So we've done those in the fall 2009, and in the fall of 2011. We'll be doing 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 record? Honor. on the record.

Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst another one here in the next month or so for 2013. A.L.J. STEIN: go off the record for a moment. (Off the record) A.L.J. STEIN: We're going back Thank you. Let's

Are we on? THE REPORTER: A.L.J. STEIN: Uh-huh. Okay. Okay. For

the town of Ghent, cross-examination for this panel. MR. GREENBERG: Thank you, your

Mark Greenberg. If I may approach for a moment? (Off-the-record discussion) A.L.J. STEIN: these for identification. MR. GREENBERG: We're on the We need to mark

A.L.J. STEIN:

Yeah.

We're marking for identification, Exhibit Thirty-three will be? MR. GREENBERG: This will be the 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 pages, Judge. many pages?

Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst Columbia County Transmission Project. There is a

PowerPoint presentation, dated October 20, '11, prepared by -- at least on the cover, it states Burns and McDonnell and a NYSEG logo in the lower, right-hand corner. It's a fifteen-page color

document, that was pre-filed previously, Judge. A.L.J. STEIN: And you have an -- Exhibit -MR. GREENBERG: A.L.J. STEIN: identification -- or Thirty-four? MR. GREENBERG: That's a I have a --- Twenty-four for Thank you.

discovery request by Protect Ghent, P.G. 5, response number C.C.T.P.-12-042, with a reply date of August 2nd, 2013, by Tim Lynch. A.L.J. STEIN: And that's how

MR. GREENBERG:

That's eight

A.L.J. STEIN: MR. GREENBERG:

Okay.

Thank you.

Thank you.

And I'll also be making reference to the map that is posted there. I know it's a bit

far away, but as far as the application, that 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Hurst goes -- Figure 3-4, the NYSEG 34.5. filed as Thirty-one. A.L.J. STEIN: to be at a microphone, right? MR. GREENBERG: Yes, Judge. I'm And you're going That was also

A.L.J. STEIN:

Okay.

That's

Do you want to also be on the other side of the table, so you can see the witnesses, or --? MR. GREENBERG: Thank you. A.L.J. STEIN: MR. GREENBERG: Very good. Good afternoon, I think this

Mr. McKinney and Mr. Lynch and Mr. Mandizha. Thank you, your Honor. CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. GREENBERG: Q. Mr. McKinney, were you present at

a meeting in June 2011, at the NYSEG offices in Binghamton, along with engineers Mike Gusty and Rich Gross? A. (McKinney) Yes. 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Greenberg Q. Okay. And along with you were

also Gordo Monsala (phonetic spelling) and Dennis Bender, correct? A. Q. Yes. And the purpose of that meeting,

was primarily to discuss a alternative, which would involve utilizing thirty-four five kilovolt transmission, is that correct? A. Yes. Connecting to the one

fifteen kV, at -- at a Ghent station, where it would be transformed to thirty-four five. Q. Right. Thank you.

And, if we're looking at the -the map that is again regarding the thirty-four point five kilovolt alternative, in general, where I'm pointing is the area where it would connect to the one fifteen power, at 9h, correct? A. Q. Yes. All right. And in general terms,

what was the discussion that took place, at that June 2011 meeting, with engineers Gusty and Gross? A. We were meeting with the town's

engineers, to -- to talk about thirty-four point five kV options. 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Greenberg We had already studied, what I'll call the town's first option, which was an option that the -- the town's engineers came up with to take two lines, from a Ghent substation, into our existing thirty-four point five kV facilities, along Route 9h, near the airport. Q. So, again, the general idea was

to energize the central area, with thirty-four point five kV power, emanating from the one fifteen line, being brought down along 9h, is that correct? A. Q. Yes. Okay. And initially, if I

understand correctly, NYSEG felt that starting the thirty-four point five power from here, would not be a functional alternative, is that correct? A. the study showed. Q. And initially, NYSEG came up with It's not what we felt. It's what

its own potential alternative, using thirty-four point five kilovolt transmission, or sub-transmission, that would snake along from 9h, bring its tap point down, around here, then follow all the way over to near the Massachusetts' border to another tap point, is that correct? 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Greenberg A. Well, there were steps in between

that we did of studies with the town, but that -that in -- in summary, identifies the NYSEG thirty-four point five kV alternative. Q. And -- and is it fair to say that

for whatever reason, talks broke down with the town engineers? A. Not as far as I'm concerned. Every alternative that they approached us with, we studied. Q. Well, didn't the engineers ask to

have a further meeting, that was turned down by NYSEG? A. Not that I'm aware of. I --

there were no other alternatives put forward. We -- we studied both the town's first alternative at that June 22, 2011 meeting and we came up with a second town alternative, that also rebuilt some of the NYSEG system. town as well. And after that, no other proposals were put forward to NYSEG. Q. Now, if I could turn your I -- I'm 800.523.7887 We studied that system for the

attention to what was previously marked.

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Greenberg not sure if it was Thirty-three or Thirty-four, the power point presentation. Do you have that before you, sir? A.L.J. STEIN: BY MR. GREENBERG: Q. A. Q. (Cont'g.) Thirty-three. Yes. Now, were you involved in any Thirty-three.

way, in providing information for this Exhibit Thirty-three? A. Q. I don't believe so, no. Was anybody else on the panel

involved in providing the information for this document? A. Yeah. This was -- this was

general information that was pulled together from a presentation that I did for all the towns back in May of 2011. Q. So -- so you utilized this

presentation -- this document in your presentations, is that correct? A. I did not do the presentation,

Q.

Mr. Bender did, is that right? 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Greenberg A. Q. I don't know. Okay. I wasn't there.

Can we speak then, in --

in general terms, in connection with this document? A. Q. Sure. Sure.

If I could turn your attention

first, to page seven. Now, it states that that's the committee proposed alternative. Now, do you understand what is referenced there, in -- in that phrase, committee proposed alternative? A. I -- I assume that's the

committee of the towns. Q. Right. And, is it your

understanding that the committee alternative involved a proposal that would be all in the rights-of-way? A. Q. Yes. That's entirely all in the rights

of way, that's what the town engineers had proposed? A. Q. Absolutely. Turning to page eight, there's And those are both 800.523.7887

two photographs there, right?

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Greenberg of thirty-four point five sub-transmission structures. Those are both placed in what appear to be open fields, with more or less a hundred foot right-of-way, is that right? A. I certainly couldn't speak to the

Q.

Okay.

Thirty-four point five

kilovolt lines can go along roadways as well, isn't that true? A. They can and in a lot of cases,

they do, if they're dual purpose and -- and serve residential customers as well. These clearly are transmission -sub-transmission structures. go down a -- a road. Q. But the type of lines that were They would not ever

discussed with ten engineers, could have gone down roadways, isn't that correct? A. They could have. The -- it

wasn't proposed to us that way.

It was new

right-of-way, from -- from the Ghent -- of what the town engineers called the Ghent Substation, which would be basically NYSEG's proposed switching 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Greenberg station, plus a station for transformation. But

that -- that was going to be a new right-of-way. Q. And again, on page nine,

similarly, you compare the types of poles used for the one fifteen power and the thirty-four point five kV power. But there are poles that carry

thirty-four point five along roadways, isn't that true? A. Correct. Dual purpose. If it's

used for distribution, they can go down roads. Yes. Q. Well, the -- the power that you

were presenting in your alternative, was for distribution, was it not? A. Q. A. No. It was sub-transmission.

So --? Connecting into the NYSEG

trans -- thirty-four point five kV transmission line, number three ten. Q. Well, if you could then, just for

my benefit, define what your terms are in connection with transmission, distribution and -and sub-transmission? A. Sure. We've provided -- and -800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Greenberg and -- and -- and I apologize for the length, it -I believe it's in response to D.P.S. twenty-four, a copy of our planning manual, criteria and processes. And, it's very clearly in there, on page three, definition of transmission system and it rolls over to -- to page four. Local transmission facilities, are all facilities -- other facilities, primarily used to supply local area load or large industrial customers. The transmission system generally

consists of facilities operated between one fifteen kV and thirty-four point five. However, some thirty-four point five is dedicated to serving customers. Facilities

like these, are grounded distribution facilities, that are not part of the transmission system. R.G. & E. supplies part of the city, where the network facilities are operated at eleven kV. transmission -- excuse me. The transmission The

facilities are operated at eleven kV. So, I mean that's our definition of transmission. If it feeds another substation, And these -- the lines feed 800.523.7887

it is transmission.

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Greenberg other transmission substations, which further reduce the voltage from thirty-four point five, down to four point eight kV. Q. And -- and again, do those

lines -- are they possible to place those lines along roadways? A. Q. Yes. It's possible. On page thirteen, the

Thank you.

question there that I have, is -- where it references the committee proposed thirty-four point five kV, it gives a cost of twenty point five million. Do you see that? A. Q. Yes. And then above it, where the

NYSEG proposed one fifteen kilovolt line is, there's a cost of seventeen point four million. So, that's an average -basically, a three million dollar difference, taking into account the twenty-six point two mile length, is that right? A. Q. You lost me. The cost for the committee

propose -- and again, when I say committee, that's what NYSEG has interpreted as the -- the 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Greenberg alternative provided by the town engineers, correct? A. Q. Yes. Okay. So, the alternative that

NYSEG has interpreted, that was proposed by the town engineers, is given a cost of twenty point five million dollars, correct? A. Q. Yes. And that's taking in to account a

length of twenty-six point two miles, yes? A. Q. Yeah. Okay. Yes. It also states that it

requires new right-of-way, correct? A. Q. That's what it states. Okay. And hundred foot wide

rights-of-way, correct? A. Q. Yes. Now, first off, a thirty-four

point five kilovolt line, does not require a hundred foot right-of-way, does it? A. It does not. But when it's a

transmission line, it does. And as in this case, this alternative study, has this as a transmission line. 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Greenberg It's not feeding customers. Q. Okay. Now, the cost there is And the cost

twenty point five million dollars.

for the NYSEG one fifteen line is seventeen point four, yes? A. Q. Yes. That's approximately a three

million dollar difference, correct? A. Q. Yes. Now, I -- I'd ask you if you

would, please, to turn to Section 3.53 of the application. A. Q. Yes. Now, I'm looking at the second And could you

full paragraph, the third sentence.

start reading that, starting with taking into account? A. (Reading) "Taking into account

the approximately twenty-six point two mile length of routes that were actually possible, the thirty-four point kV alternative was approximately thirteen point three two million dollars more expensive than NYSEG's one fifteen kV solution, using an order of magnitude as to that approach, 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Greenberg that had shown the thirty-four point five kV straight line route, to be three point one dollars more expensive." Q. Okay. Now, it's -- if I read

this correctly, three -- Section 3.53, is saying that it would cost thirteen point thirty-two million dollars more to build a twenty-six point two mile length. Whereas, the Exhibit Thirty-three shows it to be approximately three million dollars different. A. Q. A. Q. That's the way I read it, yes. So, which one is right? The second. That would be three million

dollars more or thirteen point three million dollars? A. dollars more. Q. So, why does page thirteen of Thirteen point three two million

Exhibit Thirty-three, appear to state that it would be -- excuse me, three million dollars more? A. As stated in our application,

that you just had me read, it was a straight line 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Greenberg route, was three point one million dollars more expensive. When taking into account, as it says, the routes that were actually possible, the cost came out to be thirteen point three two million dollars more. Q. Then -- then why does it state

twenty-six point two miles in length, on page thirteen, of Exhibit Thirty-three? A. Because that's how long,

evidently, that route was. Q. Okay. Just one question I have,

regarding the order of magnitude. Order of magnitude studies are based on relatively rough data, is that correct? A. I -- I don't know. I didn't do

any order of magnitude studies. Q. internal work? A. Q. A. Q. A. Not for me. Okay. I -Is it --? -- didn't do any cost estimates, 800.523.7887 Well, isn't order of magnitude

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Greenberg nor did any members of this panel, do any cost estimates associated with this proposal. Q. Well -- well, who was responsible

for drafting Section 3.53, in the application? A. There were multiple people that

came up with that. We get numbers -- we get input from a lot of people -Q. A. Q. Okay. -- when we draft it. And who -- whom can I ask today

about it, on the panel? A. There's no one on the panel that We're reporting for you,

did the cost estimate.

the estimates that are done -Q. A. Okay. -- by engineers, once they look We have routing engineers We don't price them up.

at the actual route. that look at that. Q.

Is -- is there anyone on the

panel that can speak to what the -- the definition of order of magnitude is, or to what percentage of variance could be utilized in an order of magnitude study, that's been used in Section three point five 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Greenberg

A.

It wasn't done by in-house

MR. METCALFE:

Your Honor, if I

A.L.J. STEIN: MR. METCALFE:

Yes. -- help to cut

through, as Mr. McKinney said, multiple subject matter experts were involved in the drafting of many of these exhibits, including Exhibit Three. This is not the entire witness panel for the company's direct case. There are

other panels and other witnesses to be produced afterwards and I can assist Mr. Greenberg in identifying which witnesses, in later panels, he can direct such questions to. MR. GREENBERG: much, Mr. Metcalfe. BY MR. GREENBERG: Q. (Cont'g.) Now, if I could direct your Thank you, very

attention to -- it's the response to June 22nd, 2012, Appendix A, information requests. shown as Information Request B. I -- I can certainly show you 800.523.7887 And it's

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Greenberg what I have and perhaps that would --. MR. METCALFE: Deficiency

A.L.J. STEIN: can we find this document? MR. METCALFE:

Where is -- where

It would be one of

the additional information requests from staff, Letter B and the company's response to that. A.L.J. STEIN: deficiency letter? MR. GREENBERG: Judge, I have it Oh. In the

as response to Information Request B, in the September 2012, deficiency letter response. A.L.J. STEIN: BY MR. GREENBERG: Q. A. Q. (Cont'g.) Do you have that, sir? Yes. Okay. Now, in general, there is Thank you.

the possibility of developing a thirty-four point five kilovolt alternative that would adequately resolve the system liability issue, is that correct? A. Q. For current-day load levels, yes. For current-day load levels, 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Greenberg that's correct? A. Q. Uh-huh. But it is possible at this point

in time, to construct an alternative, involving thirty-four point five kilovolt, to energize the system that you're concerned about, should there be a -- a contingency down on the Churchtown/ Craryville line, correct? A. Yes. As we state in this

response, it is technically feasible to build it. It just doesn't -- doesn't last into the future. Q. And -- and how far into the The design that -- that you

future would it last? have put together? A.

Was that four years? We had identified that that

alternative would be good to a -- a load level of two hundred and five megawatts. At which point in

time, a reinforcement would have to be made. Q. And -- and was there an estimate

as to how long, going forward into the future, you would expect to reach that load level? A. Yes. Based on our most recent

cost estimate, that would be -- excuse me, load 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Greenberg forecast, that would the year 2023. Q. So, how many more years is it

A. Q.

Ten. And -- and how many years would

the one fifteen kV solution be good for, based on current load estimates? A. seventeen years. Q. And -- and those are -- that's At a minimum of 2000 -- to 2030,

the thirty-four point five kilovolt alternative that NYSEG came up with, correct? A. Q. Correct. Without further input from the

town's engineers, correct? A. town's engineers. Q. Well, what was the substance of It was done in concert with the

the input provided by the town's engineers, other than the meeting that you attended in Binghamton, along with the one line drawing provided by the engineers? A. That was the meeting. It was a We 800.523.7887

substantial meeting, lasted several hours.

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Greenberg talked about the town -- town's alternative, number one. We had already, before that meeting, provided the results that showed that that wasn't adequate. During that meeting, we also determined -- you know, what parts of the NYSEG system needed to be reinforced. town alternative number two. We call that the

So, it's basically

the same town alternative, plus some rebuild of our existing thirty-four point five kV transmission. And then we talked about the fact that it -- the connection points were not in the -in the most optimum locations and that we would continue to do the study until we found those optimal locations and we'd come up with the NYSEG thirty-four point five kV alternative, that's in the application. And the NYSEG thirty-four point five kV application, again, consisted of drawing a line from 9h, having one's half point in the west, then going all the way to the east, to the Massachusetts' border and down to Nobel Town Road, is that correct? 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Greenberg A. I -- I don't know where it is

from a location -Q. A. Okay. -- standpoint. We -- we

identified electrically on two existing thirty-four point five kV lines that we have. So, we talked

today about -- about having a line from Kline Kill to Craryville, which on the earlier map is basically north and south. At the same time, we have two thirty-four point -- thirty-four point five kV lines and a western loop that connects those two substations and an eastern loop that connects those two substations. So, we found the optimal point to connect into those two outside existing transmission lines, that would provide sources closer to the load centers. Q. Now, there are four circuits;

circuit nine eighty-four is the one fifteen line that runs from Churchtown to Craryville and then up to the Kline Kill substation, correct? A. Q. Yes. Okay. And to the west of 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Greenberg circuit nine eighty-four, when it's traveling between Craryville and Klineville -- Kline Kill, there are two thirty-four point five circuits, correct? A. western loop. ten line. Q. Is that six eleven or six Correct. That make up that

The six eleven line and the three

thirty -- I mean, three ten or six thirty? A. Q. A. Let me check. Thank you. I know I have them here. Ten, eleven -- so yeah. Okay.

So, it's the six eleven and the six thirty line -Q. A. Q. Right. -- on the western side. In -- in -- in fact six ten is to

the east of where nine eighty-four goes, between Craryville and Kline Kill, correct? A. Right. The six ten and the six

thirty-one make up the eastern loop. Q. Right. So, it -- if we're

imagining nine eighty-four as coming across from the main one fifteen circuit, over to Craryville, 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Greenberg and then up to Kline Kill, on the west side of nine eighty-four is six thirty and six eleven. And on the east side is six ten and six thirty-one, is that correct? A. Q. Correct. And in your alternative, you

brought the tap point all the way to the east, out to about this far, is that correct? A. We brought it out to the existing

line, six thirty-one, where the load center is. Q. Okay. So, you -- the tap point

on the east side is to six thirty-one. Now, when you say load center, what are you stating by that phrase? A. We looked at the -- the eastern

thirty-four point five and the western thirty-four point five and looked at where the majority of the load is centered, and brought the line into that, those load centers. Q. And -- and what type of studies

did you do to reach those conclusions? A. We have actual load data, from --

from those transmission lines. Q. Okay. Are -- are -- has that 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Greenberg been provided? A. Q. A. Q. A. Hasn't been asked. Okay. But it does exist?

Absolutely. And -- and -- and -- and --. Yeah. It's part of our modeling

that we do when we simulate the system. Q. And -- and if we were to ask for Is it titled

that data, what would be asking for? something in particular? A. system models. No.

It's input data into our

It's not a document that exists

that's -- we pull it off -- I -- you know, I've mentioned earlier this morning, in the cross, about the energy control center and how they collect actual data. Well, we -- we collect actual data based on the load models as well. So, we

have -- we have an idea of exactly where the load is, where reinforcements are needed, on all the voltages of our system. So, we have that -- that actual load, based on history. Q. Was it ever considered to bring 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Greenberg in a thirty-four point five line, off of 9h, straight up to the Kline Kill substation as -- as part of the thirty-four point five kV alternative? A. Q. A. No. And -- and why is that? Because electrically it doesn't

make any sense to me. Q. Were studies done to try to see

if that will be an alternative that might work? A. No. As I said, it doesn't make

any electrical sense to me. Q. In Exhibit Three, to Section

3.53, the thirty-four point five kilovolt alternative --. A. Q. A. During the direct testimony? Yes, sir. Okay. Can you restate that

Q. A. Q.

Exhibit Three, Section 3.53. Yes. I hope I have this right. Does it state that load growth

can be handled through the expansion of the Kline Kill substation, to include another one fifteen, 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Greenberg thirty-four point five kilovolt transformer? And

by expansion of the Ghent switching station, to include two one fifteen and thirty-four point five kilovolt transformers? A. It's a statement that says that

those substations have the ability to grow in the future, if they need to. I identify no need for future growth there. Q. A. Q. Well --. It's just a statement of fact. Right. Well, aren't you

basically stating that you would be building a new thirty-four point -- kV circuitry from the new Ghent substation and incorporate that into a new thirty-four point five kV circuits, into the existing distribution system? A. Not at all. It says that -- that

there's room for two substation -- or excuse me, for two transformers, at those -- at those substations. Q. A. Okay. There's no thermal overload of

the existing thirty-four point five kV lines. 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Greenberg There's no need for another thirty-four point five kV line. This is about

bringing new electrical source into this area. Q. But one way to bring that new

electrical source, would be to bring it in through a thirty-four point five line and energize the entire system, from the thirty-four point five line that would be coming in from 9h or another source. A. that we studied. Q. Those are the three alternatives Exactly. Now, when you looked at the town

engineer's proposals, did you reach a conclusion that it would require the rebuilding of all existing thirty-four point five kilovolt lines? A. Q. No. Okay. What was the conclusion

that you reached then? A. There was a section, between the

actual tap point that the town engineers had -- had identified and our substation, which is a little further south on that -- on that six thirty line, further south, on that western loop. Q. And -- and again, I apologize, if

you've already stated this, but would the optimal 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Greenberg thirty-four point kV solution require all new rights-of-way? A. I -- I -- I don't think that's a I mean, My

question that -- that I can really answer. we -- we picked the points and locations.

recollection is that the routing folks were looking at all new right-of-way because it is -- they are east and west lines. There may be small sections

that jumped on an existing right-of-way, but my recollection is that the majority is on new right-of-ways. Q. Okay. But it is possible that

some of the -- what would be a new thirty-four point kV line, onto existing right-of-ways, including roads? A. Is it an option, yes. We used

spacer cable, which allows that technology to be used, in -- in some cases. Q. Okay. And -- and I know you've

rejected the idea of using any type of underground burying of line, but was it considered at all when you looked at the thirty-four point five kV alternative? A. As -- as a planner, we don't 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Greenberg identify overhead or underground. We are -- we -- we identify planning at point A and point B and it's up to the routing team to determine how it gets there and what obstacles may be in the way and whether underground may be required for -- for whatever purpose, from an environmental standpoint. But from a planning standpoint, we don't consider that at all. topographical maps like this. We don't look at We look at the

electrical layout of the system and identify those points -- those terminals that could solve the electrical problem. That's -- that's the extent of -of what planning's input in -- into a project would entail. MR. METCALFE: Your Honor, Mr.

Greenberg's questions are -- are more -- better -better directed to the environmental and routing panel, the Carol Howland panel. They have information that can be responsive to your questions. MR. GREENBERG: BY MR. GREENBERG: (Cont'g.) 800.523.7887 Thank you, sir.

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Greenberg Q. I guess just the only other

question then, about underground burying of line, is isn't it easier to bury thirty-four point five kV line, to basically perhaps go overhead for some period of time and then in some instances go underground? A. Q. Is it easier to do that? Well, then for instance a one

A.

I -- I have to assume that -- I

don't -- I don't know -- I don't have the knowledge of that. Q. Well, is there anyone else on the

panel that can speak to the fact that thirty-four point five kV line, sometimes is strung aboveground and then goes below ground for periods of time and then goes back up ground again? A. Q. A. Oh, it absolutely does. And of --? One fifteen kV does, three

hundred and forty-five thousand volt does. There -- there are always instances where we have been ordered to put lines underground. And when ordered to do so, we do so. 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Honor. Honor.

Lynch Panel - Cross - Greenberg Q. Well, that's something that is --

is one of your mandates under Section 126.1 of the Public Service Law, isn't it, to consider a underground -- what part, if any, of the lines shall be located underground? MR. METCALFE: Objection, your

I -- I would prefer if my witnesses weren't

asked for legal interpretations. A.L.J. STEIN: In -- in any

event, I think it's been made clear that this is not the panel with knowledge about undergrounding. So, if you can rephrase the question and reserve it for the Howland Panel, I would appreciate it. MR. GREENBERG: I'll move on. (Cont'g.) Just a -- a -- a few specific Thank you, your

BY MR. GREENBERG: Q.

questions, then, Mr. McKinney, do you know if there has been information provided in your application materials regarding a continuous summer and winter ratings of the circuits, six ten, six eleven, six thirty and six thirty-one? A. In response to a data request,

they may have been provided. 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 department.

Lynch Panel - Cross - Greenberg Q. Okay. Those are -- those are

data that you maintained, correct? A. We don't maintain it. We're --

we're a user of that data. The -- the main source of that information is our energy control center. provide us with the actual ratings for the facilities and then we use them in our simulation models. MR. METCALFE: For a point of So, they

clarification, the pronoun we, Mr. McKinney seems to be -MR. MCKINNEY: MR. METCALFE: Right. -- indicating his

And I'm not sure if the question

involved just his department or the company at large. MR. GREENBERG: Well, again I --

I'm just trying to get answers from the panel that I have before me right now. If another panel would

have that information, I would be happy to take those questions to them. MR. METCALFE: No. It's not so

much a -- a -- a -- who's the right panel type 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Greenberg topic, but rather of what exactly was meant by the question. Whether -- whether you have such

information and I think Mr. McKinney answered it, solely from the perspective of his department. And I just wanted a clarification if that was your question, or instead you meant the -- to -- to refer to the entire company. MR. GREENBERG: another question, then, if I may. BY MR. GREENBERG: Q. (Cont'g.) Did you take into account, the Well, let me ask

continuing summer and winter ratings of the thirty-four point five, circuit six ten, six eleven, six thirty and six thirty-one, when you provided your alternative? A. Absolutely. They're all -- all

the ratings, the summer normal, long-term emergency and short-term emergency ratings and the winter normal, long-term emergency and short-term emergency ratings. All six of those ratings are included in our simulations that we run. Q. that data from? 800.523.7887 And -- and where did you obtain

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 my head. service. data for,

Lynch Panel - Cross - Greenberg A. From our energy control center.

They're the keeper of that data. Q. And how long do they keep that

A.

As long as that facility is in

Q.

And would they also maintain

information on the historical peak load flow on those circuits as well; on six ten, six eleven, six thirty and six thirty-one? A. Q. Yes. Do you know, as you sit here,

that under normal system conditions, which would be to say of all lines and transformers in service, what the historical peak load is on the one fifteen, thirty-four -- one fifteen kV, thirty-four point five kV transformers, located at Craryville and Kline Kill substations? A. I don't know that off the top of

I believe we provided that in response to

a data request. Q. For the loss of the one fifteen

kV, thirty-four point five kV transformer, at the Craryville substation, assuming that the one 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 backup?

Lynch Panel - Cross - Greenberg fifteen kV circuit nine eighty-four remained in service and was supplying Kline Kill, which thirty-four point five kV circuits provide the backup supply to the thirty-four point five kV loads, normally supplied by the Craryville transformer? A. That's six ten, six eleven, six

thirty and six thirty-one lines. Q. So, they're all utilized for

A. Q.

Yes. Do you know what the maximum load

is that can be backed up via those circuits? A. Q. Not off the top of my head, no. Do -- do you know whether that

information was previously provided? I apologize if it was. A. It would -- if we provided the

ratings of the lines, that would be most likely the -- the limitation. Q. Okay. In the event of the loss

of the one fifteen kilovolt, thirty-four point five kilovolt transformer at Kline Kill, again, it's -this -- this time assuming that the one fifteen 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Greenberg circuit nine eighty-four, would remain in service and continue supplying the Craryville substation, which thirty-four point kilovolt circuits provide backup supply to the loads normally supplied by the Kline Kill transformer? A. The -- the main support would

again come from six ten, six eleven, six thirty and six thirty-one. But there are also thirty-four point five kV lines to the north of Kline Kill that would also participate in -- in providing backup. Q. And -- and just if I may, one

other question, which is -- this project was initially contemplated as being an eight point five mile project, is that right? A. That's correct. That's as the

crow flies, distance between the -- Kline Kill and Valkin substations. Q. And -- and that would keep it

from being Title VII, correct? A. Q. A. Q. Article Seven? I'm sorry. Yes. And obviously, that would make a 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. BLOW: Staff? Honor.

Lynch Panel - Cross - Greenberg difference to a municipality, such as the town of Ghent, in its ability to provide input in the project itself, is that right? A. I can't speak to that. I don't

know what the town of Ghent's abilities are or are not. MR. GREENBERG: very much, sir. Well, thank you

I appreciate your time. I have no further questions, your

A.L.J. STEIN:

Thank you.

For Department of Public Service

MR. BLOW:

Thank you, your Honor.

Good afternoon, panel. CROSS EXAMINATION

Q.

I have a question first about

D.P.S. -- response to D.P.S. 29, which is Exhibit Twenty-eight. Could you tell me which -- who -who prepared that response? A. Brian Gordon. You said

Twenty-eight or Twenty-nine?

I'm sorry. 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Twenty-eight. A. Q. A. Q.

Lynch Panel - Cross - Blow It -- it is confusing. Yes. Yes, sir.

It's D.P.S. 29, Exhibit -A.L.J. STEIN: MR. BLOW: It's --

-- Twenty-eight. -- Exhibit

A.L.J. STEIN:

Okay.

Yes.

Brian Gordon, from

our energy control center. MR. BLOW: Okay. So, I -- your

Honor, I am -- not that I have a question on this, but it -- it concerns me that in our discovery rules, part five requires the -- the -- entities who prepare responses, to make -- witness -- to advise which witnesses would be available for cross-examination, with respect to certain -- to the responses that they provide. Mr. Metcalfe did not provide or arrange for Mr. Gordon to be present and I don't -and frankly, as I said, I don't have any questions on that. And -- and we got by it with Mr. Hurst's But I'm concerned, I

questions to this panel.

guess more generally, are there any other responses that -- that the company has prepared, where the 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Blow witnesses are -- that -- that the company is offering, to not answer questions on, because that -- that calls into question, the -- the probity, I guess you could say, of the exhibits. MR. METCALFE: Your Honor, the

company has identified, in the response to the information request, the individual or individuals who prepared the responses or who supervised the preparation. We understood that the purpose of

this hearing, in September, was for the company to present witnesses in support of its direct case and we believe we have done so in so far as we see our direct case as encompassed by the application and a number of supplemental submissions. Following that, we don't see our direct case as being comprised of the entirety of the discovery records, or discovery collection as well. MR. BLOW: I don't really want to

get into a big argument, except that -- except that if you -- if you do not see your responsibility as providing a witness to -- to authenticate or being able to discuss the discovery response -- responses which relate to your direct case, then when would 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Blow you be able to provide those witnesses to -- to discuss those responses? It -- it doesn't make sense to me that -- that you would not have a witness -- the -the discovery rules themselves, in part five, require the company to designate the witness who is responsible for -- who can be called to cross-exam -- cross-examined on the discovery responses. MR. METCALFE: A.L.J. STEIN: MR. METCALFE: witness -- the witnesses. We have -It's --. -- designated the

We -- we believed the

purpose of this hearing was to support our direct case. We -- staff, or another party, can take steps to examine other witnesses, other NYSEG representatives, at a future point in the process, but we didn't see that as the scope of this hearing. MR. BLOW: I'm raising it,

because I -- I don't know if it's going to be a problem or not. I think the discovery responses

that we plan to introduce, are all ones which 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Blow are -- where the -- a -- a member of a panel or a witness that is sponsoring -- that is -- has sponsored direct testimony, is going to be available. I just -- I raise it as a concern, in case we get down the road and we find that this is -- is -- may be a problem because this is the one -- one that I became aware of. MR. HURST: All right. If I may

for a moment, Judge, just -- as a practical matter, I think the problem Steve has identified, David, is we've got Mr. Gordon identified as a witness on the I.R. No question this panel based on that I.R. and obviously it was -- you know, it's just a planning thing. by that I.R. So, the question in my mind, is does Mr. Gordon agree with the answers that were given by the panel and how do I figure that out. To tell you the truth, I -- I'm not sure that I experienced the calling of adverse witnesses as part of our direct case in these proceedings, but it seems to be that's what you're suggesting, is -800.523.7887 Issues that were addressed

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Blow is the route that we would be required to take, under these circumstances, which doesn't seem particularly efficient. MR. METCALFE: Well -- well

perhaps I could ask your Honor about what your thoughts are on the -- your expected scope of the -- the next hearing, this -- this bifurcated hearing process had us focusing, frankly, on the company's direct case. We have been, I think, fairly relaxed in not objecting to I.R.s, based on the scope of the -- the question or questions, in the I.R. We didn't focus our discovery process on solely this hearing. There -- there are

questions in the I.R. collection that are very far afield from the company's direct case and there are many, many people in the company and consultants working for the company, that were tapped to be primarily involved in responding to those questions. What I might suggest, if -- if there are I.R. responses, that have been addressed or would be addressed, during the course of this 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Blow hearing in September, notwithstanding the witness named on the I.R. If a member or members of a

given panel, including this one can testify that they are comfortable with those responses, then I would ask that that stand as -- that testimony stand as the testimony of the company. MR. BLOW: That's -- from my

perspective, that makes sense and so had Mr. Hurst maybe -- maybe he did realize that the witness was a different witness, but they -- I will ask the question then. BY MR. BLOW: (Cont'g.) Q. (McKinney) The response to

D.P.S. 29, it would be Exhibit Twenty-eight, does this panel sponsor that response? A. Q. Yes. And -- and believe that it is

A.

Other than the fact that we said

that it was not including the January 26th, 2013 outage. Q. Right. That was provided in --

in another exhibit. A. Yes. 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Blow MR. BLOW: Thank you. Before you go

A.L.J. STEIN:

ahead, let me suggest that -- first of all, that we all be equally cognizant and vigilant to ensure that the -- if an information request is -- or any other document is produced as an exhibit here, is submitted for identification and that the -- the witness who responded to the information request, or the person who authored that document is not present as a witness, let's ensure that either -either the witnesses who are here are confident and competent to answer the question, the material that's before them and can explain their relationship to this information. Or, that we attempt to produce that person, if possible. And that otherwise,

the -- for the parties who are producing these exhibits for the purpose of cross-examination, need to ensure that they are focusing on the witnesses who are being made available here, for the purpose of this hearing. So, let's just attempt to match them up more carefully than we have up until -until now. And I think that's the specific issue 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 my attention.

Lynch Panel - Cross - Blow before us, for this hearing and I don't think we need to reach, at this point, the initial issues of what to do at the next hearing, or what the general implication of it is. Let's just try to ask questions of the people who are here and try to put forward material with which they're familiar with, which I think overall, we have done so far. But thank you for calling it to

MR. BLOW:

Thank you, your Honor.

I would ask the panel to refer to Exhibit Nine in the application. BY MR. BLOW: (Cont'g.) Q. Okay. This exhibit, it's a cost

exhibit, it was prepared by someone on, or under the direction of this panel, right? A. Q. (McKinney) Okay. No, it was not.

Who was it prepared by?

Is there a panel or a witness? A.L.J. STEIN: I think Exhibit

Nine is the Bartech (phonetic spelling) Panel, if I'm not mistaken, looking at the NYSEG witness list. 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Blow MR. BLOW: Hang on one second. MR. METCALFE: In a couple of Okay. I will defer.

seconds, I could find the name or panel, who could respond to your Exhibit Nine, if that's helpful, Mr. Blow? MR. BLOW: Thank you. A.L.J. STEIN: MR. BLOW: Okay. It would be helpful.

Okay. So, generally, Mr.

A.L.J. STEIN:

Metcalfe, would you say that cost information -questions related to cost and cost estimates, are for that panel? MR. METCALFE: That's correct.

One hundred percent for that panel. A.L.J. STEIN: MR. BLOW: That's helpful.

So, let me just

inquire, so I don't -- so I don't get beyond this panel in -- and into another panel and then find out I should have asked this one. Which panel is discussing the choice of where to locate the Ghent switching station and the alternative locations and the cost? 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Blow Is that Bartech? MR. METCALFE: Is that the site

MR. BLOW:

Yes. -- the proposed

MR. METCALFE: site of the switching station? MR. BLOW: Yes.

MR. METCALFE: Carol Howland panel. MR. BLOW:

That would be the

Okay. Basically all

MR. METCALFE:

siting-related matters, routing and the siting of facilities. MR. BLOW: Okay. then I

think -- I want to ask -- if I ask questions about cost and it's going to -- then that would be Bartech panel, you're saying? MR. METCALFE: MR. BLOW: Okay. Right.

Right.

Hang on a second. Should we take a

A.L.J. STEIN:

MR. BLOW: at the point where I'm --

No.

I'm -- I'm just

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 or am I --? BY MR. BLOW:

Lynch Panel - Cross - Blow A.L.J. STEIN: (Cont'g.) Q. Okay. Is the one fifteen kV Take your time.

loop in and out -- the in and out tap, is that from -- from the -- from the National Grid trunk line, to the new Ghent switching station, proposed to be on two singel circuit structures or one double circuit structure? A. The -- the request from planning

was that it be on two singel circuit structures, two separate structures. Q. Okay. Okay. Could you refer to

the response to I.R.C.C.T.P. 12-52, D.P.S. Twenty-four, attachment one? A. That's Iberdrola U.S.A.Electric

system planning manual, criteria and processes? A. Yes. MR. BLOW: And that your Honor,

we would ask the -- it was one of the -- one of our pre-filed exhibits. We would ask that that be

marked for identification. A.L.J. STEIN: MR. BLOW: Okay.

Is that Thirty-five,

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Thirty-five.

Lynch Panel - Cross - Blow A.L.J. STEIN: Yes. That's

MR. MCKINNEY: distribution planning criteria? MR. BLOW: distribution planning. A.L.J. STEIN: Exhibit Thirty-five. MR. BLOW: No.

That's

Transmission

That will be

Okay. Would that be just

MR. METCALFE:

the I.R. response or -- the entirety of the I.R. response, or just the -MR. BLOW: It's -- it's --- manual?

MR. METCALFE: MR. BLOW:

-- it's the electrical

system planning manual, criteria and processes. It's actually -- it's Attachment One, to their response. MR. MCKINNEY: MR. METCALFE: Yes, sir. Okay. So, the

exhibit would just be that attachment? MR. BLOW: Yes. And -- and we're

going to also -- I believe we're going to also -we proposed to mark Attachment Two as well, so you 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Associated Reporters Int'l., Inc. right. Yes. Yes.

Lynch Panel - Cross - Blow can hand that up, please. A.L.J. STEIN: that to be a separate exhibit? MR. BLOW: Yes. That should This -- you want

probably be Exhibit Thirty-six. A.L.J. STEIN: Thirty-six as Attachment Two. Okay. Exhibit

And can you restate

what these things are attachments -MR. BLOW: They are --- to?

A.L.J. STEIN: MR. BLOW:

-- they are

attachments to the response to D.P.S. 24, designated C.C.T.P. 12-52 to D.P.S. 24. And the -- Exhibit Five is -A.L.J. STEIN: Okay. Thank you.

MR. BLOW:

-- attached to it.

Exhibit Thirty-five is attachment one, which is -A.L.J. STEIN: Attachment --

MR. BLOW: Electric System --

-- Iberdrola U.S.A.

A.L.J. STEIN: MR. BLOW:

That's -- okay.

-- planning manual, 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. BLOW:

Lynch Panel - Cross - Blow criteria and processes. A.L.J. STEIN: Thirty-five is attachment one? MR. BLOW: Right. Okay. And that's And Exhibit Number

A.L.J. STEIN:

an eighteen-page document, Iberdrola U.S.A. Electric System, planning manual. Thirty-six is a -MR. BLOW: That's a -- that would Yeah. -- Thirty-nine And Exhibit

be dealing with the distribution. A.L.J. STEIN:

page -- so -- a seventeen-page document, entitled distribution, planning and criteria. Thank you. (Cont'g.) Q. attachment, right? A. Q. Yes. This -- particularly talking You're sponsoring this

about now, Exhibit Thirty-five? A. Q. Yes. On pages four and five, am I

correct, that the document states a double circuit transmission tower outage, should be considered as 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Blow a single contingency, if the multiple circuit towers, are used for more than station entrance and/or exit purposes and exceed more than five towers in length? A. Q. Correct. Wouldn't shortening the distance

from -- and if you can -- if this is -- you're not the right panel, tell me. But wouldn't shortening the distance from the National Grid -- Grid one fifteen kV trunk line, to a closer Ghent switching station, so that five or fewer structures are needed, meaning that the loop, in and out tap, could consist of double circuit structures, rather than two single circuit structures? A. It would certainly meet the

criteria of both NYSEG and -- this actually comes from a -- from a NERC, N-E-R-C, criteria. But again, that's a -- a special dispensation that's given for ingress and egress. Obviously, it's not something that -- that we would propose for any structures as my prior answer, the system planning directive in this was to keep them single circuits for 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Blow reliability reasons, that way it does not reduce the reliability to the existing National Grid fifteen kV line -- or excuse me -- yeah, one fifteen kV line, number fifteen. Q. Okay. Could you refer to the --

what's been marked as Exhibit Thirty-six, the response to I.R. C.C.T.P. twelve dash fifty-two, D.P.S. Twenty-four, attachment two, which is the Iberdrola U.S.A. distribution planning criteria? A. Q. Yes. You're sponsoring this document,

A. Q.

Yes. Can you refer to page two? On that page, it indicates that

for a substation bus the low-voltage limit that must be maintained, is one hundred twenty-four volts, or about one hundred three percent of the nominal voltage and the --. A. I apologize. I'm sorry to

interrupt, but my page two doesn't say anything like that. Q. Well, maybe we're off on pages,

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 guess. it here. the document. Q.

Lynch Panel - Cross - Blow A. Page -- page two is the index of

Okay.

Give me a second.

A.

But Mr. Blow, if you could -- if

you could start that again, I might be able to help you find it. Q. Well, we're -- we're looking for

Here we go.

It's talking about

the -- the low-voltage limit and the -- and the corresponding high voltage limit. we'll look. Q. Twenty-one, sorry. Mistype, I So, we'll --

A. Q.

Okay. Okay.

I'm with you. For a substation bus --

it indicates that for a substation bus, the low-voltage limit that must be maintained, is a hundred and twenty-four volts, or about one hundred and three percent of the nominal voltage. And the corresponding high voltage limit is one hundred and twenty-six volts, or one hundred five percent of nominal, correct? A. I'm -- I'm sorry, but that -- but 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q.

Lynch Panel - Cross - Blow the low value -- okay. Okay. Yes. Yes. I'm with you now. I agree.

Am I correct, that you believe

the results produced by the power flow studies, used to justify the proposed project, are a fairly accurate representation of your actual power system? A. Yes. Very much so.

We -- we take into consideration, both the transmission and the subtransmission system in creating the electrical equivalents that go into our simulations. Q. Substation bus voltages in the

Chatham area, in your power flow studies that were used to justify this project, generally don't lie within the required one hundred three percent to one hundred five percent range, do they? A. No. They don't. We -- we make

the assumption that in substations that have further control on the distribution system, whether that be voltage regulators or L.G.C.'s on the transformers, or other voltage regulation devices on the distribution, that -- that we can operate those down to a point nine per unit voltage. 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Blow Wouldn't one objective of your

planning study, be to provide solutions that raise substation voltages, to the required range? A. But that -- those required ranges

are for the system normal condition. Q. Running the power system with

substation busses at a hundred percent of the nominal voltage under normal conditions, rather than between a hundred and three and a hundred and five percent, results in a system with poor voltage performance, doesn't it? A. Can -- can -- can you restate

Yes. Or even read it back would be

A.

Well, I can -- I can restate it. Would -- if you run a -- a power

system, with substation busses at a hundred percent of nominal voltage, under normal conditions, rather than between a hundred and three and a hundred and five percent -- in other words, lower than -- lower than the one hundred and three to one hundred and five percent, doesn't that result in a system 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Blow that -- with poor voltage performance? A. As poor per -- performance during But when you operate

that contingency condition.

at a higher voltage, pre-contingency, you're -you're putting a lot of system losses, onto the -onto the system. So, the -- the multiple loss

studies that we've done in conjunction with the Department of Public Service, has clearly shown that running at nominal voltages is a better operating voltage, for overall system losses. a better savings for the customer. Q. But you do have it in your The one hundred and three It's

criteria, though, right?

to one hundred and five percent? A. Q. Yes. So, the -- the purpose of this

project -- one of the purposes is voltage support, right? A. Q. Yes. Very much so.

But you're starting with a lower

voltage support, in any case, right? A. Q. A. I don't think -Lower than -- lower than --- that's the case in this 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Blow

As I stated earlier, we have taken operational steps, that perhaps are outside of this criteria, in order to set ourselves on a precontingency situation, with higher voltages. So, we've made, as I previously testified, fixed tap settings to -- to increase the voltage, precontingency. Q. Do the power flow results, with

the proposed one fifteen kV project in service, meet the required one o three -- one hundred and three or a hundred and five percent range, for a substation bus voltages? A. On a system normal basis, that's I would have to check those.

probably the case. Q.

Would you refer to the company's

response to I.R.C.C.T.P. 12-55, which is D.P.S. 27? It's one of the exhibit we pre-filed in here. A. Q. Yes. It regards the Kline Kill

substation load forecast. A. Yes. MR. BLOW: I ask that that be

marked for identification, your Honor. 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. BLOW: Honor.

Lynch Panel - Cross - Blow A.L.J. STEIN: MR. BLOW: And what is it?

It is the response to

D.P.S. 27 -- I.R.C.C.T.P. 12-55, D.P.S. twenty-seven, regarding the Kline Kill substation load forecast. (Off-the-record discussion) A.L.J. STEIN: marked as Exhibit Thirty-seven -MR. BLOW: Right. Thank you, your So, this will be

MR. METCALFE:

A.L.J. STEIN:

-- for

identification and it's a one page document. MR. BLOW: You have it, right? Yes.

A.L.J. STEIN: (Cont'g.) Q. A. Q. response, right? A. Yes. MR. BLOW: Now --? Yes.

And you're sponsoring this

Actually --? Yes.

A.L.J. STEIN:

Mr. Nadichez' (phonetic spelling) name is on it. 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Okay.

Lynch Panel - Cross - Blow

(Off-the-record discussion) A.L.J. STEIN: prepared this response is here. MR. BLOW: Yeah, but -- yeah, but The witness who

you said it was a one-page document. A.L.J. STEIN: to say, that's my mistake. document. BY MR. BLOW: (Cont'g.) Q. Page two indicates a power factor I -- I was about

It's -- is a two-page

forecast of ninety percent, for the Kline Kill one -- one fifteen, thirty-four five -- thirty-four point five kV substation, right? A. Q. That's correct. The ninety percent power factor,

isn't what has historically occurred at peak load, on the Kline Kill substation, is it? A. It -- it's -- it can be very

close to that, yes. Q. I -- I -- I'm confused. In the past, historically, are you saying that it has been a nine -- at -- at ninety percent -- a ninety percent power factor? 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Blow A. I -- I said it can be in that

I mean, we're modeling multiple different substations that are fed out of a -- a given transformer. So, the actual load that we

represent on the busses, is what's represented here. This is the load that's -- that's on the Not a specific substation. This isn't

busses.

Kline Kill.

This isn't -- this isn't Craryville.

This is the -- the entire Mechanicville Division. And, we model what's actually out there on the system. Q. So, you didn't look historically

as -- as to what it was, what it has been? A. We absolutely did, yes. This is a forecast of what we see

Right.

And I asked you, and

you -- you kept answering it can be, it can be. I said historically, what -- what has occurred on the -- at peak load, on the Kline Kill substation? A. This has nothing to do with the That's my point. This is 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Blow the Mechanicville Division. We -- we did provide some specific information on the -- on the Kline Kill transformers and the actual flows on them, in response to another data request. Q. Okay. Well, do the power flow

studies used to justify the proposed one fifteen kV project reflect a ninety percent power factor? A. No, they do not. They reflect the actual power factors on the system. Q. A. Which is? I would have to look. I don't

know that off the top of my head. get that for you. Q.

We can certainly

I would appreciate that. Is it your intent to design for a

ninety percent power factor? A. Q. A. No, not at all. What would you design for? I mean, ideally, I would love to That's what we -- from

have a unity power factor.

a planning standpoint, would like to see. We can't always entice the 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Blow customers to correct to a unity power factor. We try to correct those on the distribution circuits to be at a unity, but again we have to watch and make sure that we use switch capacitors so as that we don't go into the leading power factor system and increase our -- our system losses. (Off-the-record discussion) A.L.J. STEIN: Before -- before

MR. BLOW:

Yeah. -- I want to -- I

A.L.J. STEIN:

want to make sure I have an accurate read here of exactly the question that you asked the witness to provide additional information on, regarding the power factor. Could you restate that or could

MR. BLOW:

I can restate it. A couple of

A.L.J. STEIN:

MR. BLOW:

Yeah.

I can -- I

A.L.J. STEIN:

I'm asking the 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 request) before that? before that. request )

Lynch Panel - Cross - Blow reporter if you can read it back. The witness -- I believe he said he could provide that information, so I just want to make sure we know what the information is and see if that can be provided. (The reporter complied with the

MR. BLOW:

I think it was the one

A.L.J. STEIN:

I guess the one

MR. BLOW:

I think so. Okay. Okay. A

A.L.J. STEIN: little bit before that.

(The reporter complied with the

MR. BLOW:

An actual power factor

on the system is what we were talking about. A.L.J. STEIN: And when you say

the system, what specifically are you referring to? At the Kline Kill substation or Mechanicville systems? MR. BLOW: Each of the

substations in the Mechanicville sub -- division, 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 much. BY MR. BLOW:

Lynch Panel - Cross - Blow if you have that. Or if you have the overall --

only the overall Mechanicville division, I'll take that. MR. McKINNEY: We'll give you If not, we

down to the substations, if we have it.

certainly have it at the -- at the division level. MR. BLOW: Thank you. Thank you very

A.L.J. STEIN:

(Cont'g.) Q. Let's see. Wouldn't you agree

that a power system, operating at ninety percent power factor, would generally have heavier circuit loading, higher losses and a greater voltage drop, than a circuit operating at a higher power factor, such as ninety-five percent or ninety-eight percent? A. Q. Yes. Assuming a power factor of ninety

percent in a power flow study, would produce more pessimistic results in terms of thermal loadings and voltage performance, compared to a situation in which the actual power factor is ninety-five percent or ninety-eight percent, right? 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Blow A. That's correct. That's why I said we use the actual power factor. It's all in the system and

we've tried to correct those to be unity off peak. Q. Okay. Okay.

Would you turn to -- you were going to introduce this but Mr. Hurst did already. It's Exhibit Thirty-two. Your response, NYSEG's

response to D.P.S. 21 regarding the Kline Kill Development transmission facilities routing? A. Q. Yes. Did you or someone under your

direction prepare this response? A. Q. Yes. Is this a complete and accurate

copy of your answer to the information request? A. Q. Yes. Mr. Lynch, would you -- we're

going to show you a copy of NYSEG's response to D.P.S. Thirty-seven. I ask that that be marked. That

This deals with alternative routing studies. was -A.L.J. STEIN: number Thirty-eight.

It will be Exhibit

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Mr. McKinney. BY MR. BLOW: Q. prefiled.

Lynch Panel - Cross - Blow MR. METCALFE: It was previously

A.L.J. STEIN:

And it's a

one-page document and it's a response -- a NYSEG response to D.P.S. thirty-seven. MR. METCALFE: Right.

Mr. Lynch, did you or someone

under your direction prepare this response? A. Q. (Lynch) Yes, sir.

And is this a complete and

accurate copy of your answer to information request D.P.S. Thirty-seven? A. Q. Yes, it is. Okay. Your answer to D.P.S.

Thirty-seven is simply reporting what National Grid told you rather than an independent assessment that you may have made, correct? MR. McKINNEY: Actually this is

I was present at the meeting when,

when this was discussed, so Mr. Lynch had consulted with me in creating this response and that is a correct statement. BY MR. BLOW: 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q.

Lynch Panel - Cross - Blow And in fact hasn't NYSEG had a

Valkin to Kline Kill one fifteen kV transmission facility under consideration for capital project budgeting since at least 2008 -A. Q. A. That is correct. -- or 2009? That is correct. We didn't

actually meet with National Grid to talk about the connection until probably early 2010. Q. So, if I could summarize your

responses to discovery requests, there was no mapping or routing any consideration of any kind done for the potential location of that facility as we learned from your response to D.P.S. Twenty-one which is Exhibit Thirty-two, right? A. That's correct. We had moved

along from a planning standpoint assuming that, you know, from an electrical standpoint, that was the nearest substation that we would be granted permission to come in from National Grid and it wasn't until we actually sat down and met with them once we got our funding in our rate case that, you know, they shied us away from that due to the congestion. 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 answer. Q.

Lynch Panel - Cross - Blow And according to the response to

D.P.S. Thirty-seven which is Exhibit Thirty-eight, the criterion for avoiding the Valkin substation interconnection was that of National Grid, that National Grid reported that the fenced area at the existing substation wasn't really big enough to accommodate a substation line terminal, correct? A. In part. That's only part of the

It also talks about the limited physical

space available to construct the transmission line into that substation as well. Q. Now the Valkin substation is a

National Grid facility, correct? A. Q. Correct. And referring back now to the

proposed Exhibit -- the proposed one fifteen kV facility, west of the Ghent switch-yard facility proposed in this case, that will tie into the National Grid trunk number one fifteen line, correct? A. Q. Trunk fifteen. Trunk fifteen. MR. BLOW: Yes. Now I just

All right.

want to make sure who -- I may be done with this 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Blow panel but I have to double check on a couple of questions or areas. I have questions regarding the

applicant's responses to the questions posed in D.P.S. Four which lists witnesses McKinney, Cross, Howland and Werth from three different witness panels. So if, rather than marking it right now until we figure out who's going to be answering questions on this -MR. METCALFE: Okay, Mr. Blow,

there were a total of seven different questions in that information request and the questions dealt with different types of subjects related to the proposed switching station. MR. BLOW: Yes. The siting and

MR. METCALFE:

routing related questions were handled by Mr. Werth; cost-related handled by Mr. Cross; environmental and to some extent siting as well by Ms. Howland and planning-related elements were in Mr. McKinney's department. MR. BLOW: Okay. I think this

is -- I think we've figured out that this IS regarding, at least for the Howland/Werth panel. 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Cross - Blow Hold on a second. I just wanted to double check the other area but I think that is -- questions, my understanding is that questions regarding the response to deficiency number nine regarding ownership, will ultimately take ownership is Mr. Werth, I think? MR. METCALFE: MR. BLOW: That is correct.

And the other, other

questions regarding that is the Bartech panel, right? MR. METCALFE: MR. BLOW: That is correct.

So, I have no more

A.L.J. STEIN:

Thank you very

Mr. Metcalfe, would you like to take a few minutes to decide if you want to do some redirect or --? MR. METCALFE: could take a few minutes break? A.L.J. STEIN: a five-minute break. (Off the record) 800.523.7887 Yeah. Let's take Yes. Perhaps we

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Honor. on the record.

Lynch Panel - Cross - Blow A.L.J. STEIN: We're going back

Mr. Metcalfe, do you have some

redirect for your witnesses? MR. METCALFE: Thank you very much. REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. METCALFE: Q. The definition of a double Yes, I do, your

circuit as opposed to a single circuit, can you explain when you're speaking about two transmission lines configured in double circuit configuration, what that means? A. A double circuit configuration

would be in general a single pole with six wires on it. Three wires that make up line one and three So, the downside of

wires would make up line two.

a single pole double circuit power is that if it's more than five structures in length, we must, from a planning criteria standpoint, consider the loss of that power falling over and taking out both lines as a single contingency. So from a planning standpoint, we always try to route independent lines on independent right-of-ways but I'm know I'm pushing 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Redirect - Metcalfe But, that's, you know, in a pure

planning criteria would always be separate lines feed a general area to always be on separate towers. Like I said, we do have the dispensation that's been given by NERC to allow us ingress egress of five towers that can be considered as a single pole double circuit without considering a single contingency. Q. Thank you. Changing gears a bit.

Mr. Lynch, one of the exhibits and I apologize. I forget what exhibit number it

was given but it's the company's response to P.G. one, the information request. A.L.J. STEIN: Exhibit

MR. METCALFE: you, Your Honor. BY MR. METCALFE: Q. (Cont'g.)

Twenty-six.

Thank

The response to that I.R., did --

was there a one- or two-step correction process subsequent to the company issuing that response: A. Yes, there was so we issued two

corrections to this. 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Redirect - Metcalfe The first correction appears on page three, it is a table of hours and this would be the hours of exposure and we corrected those numbers based on an erroneous selection of the criteria by which we gathered those hours or counted those hours. And the second correction was

the correction under -- that was under question, or response four. Under response five, there is a small table of values and on the right-hand side, the value of one hundred twenty-seven megawatts, it was a mathematical error that we discovered in reviewing this work and we corrected that number. I believe the answer was one hundred forty-four. A.L.J. STEIN: make sure I understand. So let me just

You're saying that there

was a subsequent filing to this response filing that contains several corrections? MR. METCALFE: That's correct. The

In fact, there were two subsequent responses. first corrected version and a second corrected version. MR. HURST:

And Judge, just for 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Redirect - Metcalfe the record, the second corrected version came in at about one p.m. yesterday after the exhibits had been pre-filed. So, I just wasn't able to

incorporate it into my presentation and assuming we have a grand exhibit reconciliation in the process but actually both of those corrections came in in the last -- I think the first one came in on the 12th and the last one came in yesterday. MR. METCALFE: My only desire is

to make sure the corrected, the second corrected version stands as the company's response to that I.R. A.L.J. STEIN: What I would like

to do is if somebody can provide me a copy of the second corrected version, I can attach it to the original version that was put in as Exhibit twenty-six. MR. HURST: right now, Judge. A.L.J. STEIN: Okay. And you I have copies for you

Have no objection to me having --? MR. METCALFE: A.L.J. STEIN: No. So then this will

stand as the most recent version on the I.R. 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 and mark it. Certainly. Honor.

Lynch Panel - Redirect - Metcalfe response and thank you for correcting that on the record. MR. METCALFE: Thank you, Your

Your Honor, I assume you wanted it to be provided electronically though, right? A.L.J. STEIN: MR. METCALFE: Yes. If you'd like, the

company can take of delivering that to you electronically? A.L.J. STEIN: Yeah. Actually if

you can file it electronically the office of the secretary as well as provide it to me? MR. METCALFE: Certainly.

A.L.J. STEIN: Thank you.

And I'll go ahead

BY MR. METCALFE: Q. The so-called Transco project,

Mr. McKinney, you had given some information about its connection to NYSEG. Is NYSEG involved in a project that is different from the project called the C.C.T.P. project that's the subject of this 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Redirect - Metcalfe hearing, a different project that would aim to serve the same need as the C.C.T.P. project? A. Q. No. Not at all.

Can you give a bit more

description, please, on the second Churchtown to Craryville line idea that was the subject of the some of the 2008 planning materials that you testified to earlier? Specifically, can you

indicate whether that would be or was proposed to be single or double circuit? A. Yeah. That study, we had looked

at that alternative, and made the assumption that it would be a single circuit, second line as I mentioned earlier, preferred on a separate right-of-way even between Churchtown and Craryville. There was certainly no parts of that

line that were assumed to be single-pole double circuit with the existing line. Q. And would you -- if that project

or that proposal were in fact built, would you consider that to be electrically identical to the C.C.T.P. project that was proposed? A. Q. No. It is not.

As to the idea of a direct one 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 identical. proposal?

Lynch Panel - Redirect - Metcalfe fifteen kV connection between the Kline Kill substation and National Grid's Valkin substation, would you consider that to be electrically identical? A. Q. To our proposed project? I'm sorry. Yes. To the C.C.T.P.

A.

I would.

They are electrically

Q.

And from the perspective of a

system planner, your set of responsibilities, do you take into account the routing and environmental -- potential environmental impacts of a project idea? A. Q. No, not at all. You are aware there are -- or are

you aware that there are other people in the company and consultants to the company that address those matters? A. Absolutely. We work with them so

that they're very clear as to the electrical need for reinforcement, the fact that we're looking to go from point A to point B but we leave it up to them on how to get there. 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Redirect - Metcalfe We give them the general Again, the criteria where we try and

from a planning standpoint to ensure that it's not double circuited with another line, such that it would set us back and actually make that reinforcement almost not a reinforcement. If we were double circuited with, let's say, Churchtown and Craryville line, for some reason, that the routing did that, we would again then have to look at that as a single contingency which would again remove all benefit of creating that new circuit. So, we talk about those criteria with the routing team but then we let them go and do what they're experts at. Q. So, is it fair to say that your

principle focus is to connect point A to point B in your planning activities? A. Q. Absolutely. And comparing the C.C.T.P.

project to the idea of a direct one fifteen kV connection between Kline Kill and Valkin, do they both equally achieve the same connecting point A and point B objective? 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Redirect - Metcalfe A. They do. They are electrically

Q.

Do you have direct knowledge of

whether NYSEG's Mechanicville division did or did not suffer transmission line outages as a direct consequence of Hurricane Irene? A. Q. I do not. Can you explain, please, your

understanding of the various thirty-four point five kV proposals that have been the subject of cross-examination and the panel's testimony today? Specifically, how you -- how you understand each of those proposals to be constituted what are the details of the proposals? A. Sure. In each of the thirty-four

point five kV alternatives, there are three total. Two from the town and one from NYSEG. The first town proposal connects at a station similar to the switching station at Ghent. That switching station remains in all

alternatives, even the one fifteen kV proposal that we were putting forward in the C.C.T.P. That switching station, in the thirty-four point five kV alternatives, also 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Redirect - Metcalfe include a transformer and a yard associated with that to transform the power from a hundred fifteen kV to thirty-four point five kV, have circuit breakers there at thirty-four point five kV and in town alternative one, the proposal was to bring two separate lines out of that Ghent substation and connect into two points on NYSEG's existing thirty-four point five kV. That system, as I mentioned earlier, was -- was reviewed, the results were reviewed with the town and they were, they just weren't competitive to move forward. Q. Can you explain what competitive

A.

We -- we looked at the two Earlier this morning, I

critical contingencies.

talked about the feeds from the north and the feed from the south, so there are two critical contingencies that we did all of our analysis against. And, that would look at the loss of the

Churchtown to Craryville one fifteen kV line at the south end and for that contingency, with the town alternative number one, we found that the, that the mechanical area load was limited to a hundred 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Redirect - Metcalfe sixty-one megawatts. So, that's basically, you So, that's what I

know, next year's peak load.

meant by it wasn't a real viable alternative. Q. So in that statement you just

made, are you saying that the load level at which a proposed reinforcement, that particular reinforcement aqt that case, would need further reinforcement, essentially the point at which it sort of runs out of gas? sixty-one megawatts? A. Q. A. Correct. Thank you. For that contingency. And then That would be one

we also looked at it for the loss of Wyantskill to Stephentown one fifteen. The contingency at the

north and, as I mentioned earlier this morning, that is a less limiting contingency that was good to two hundred five megawatts for a district load. So, we then, as I mentioned earlier, worked with the town's engineers and came up with town alternative number two. We had

overloaded thirty-four point five kV system, existing NYSEG system. So we worked with the

town's engineers to model the system using the 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Redirect - Metcalfe spacer cable technology to also rebuild our section of the thirty-four point five kV system that performed better than, and we got into voltage constraints at a district load of one hundred eighty megawatts for that southern contingency. And, then once again, two hundred and five megawatt limit for the northern contingency in Stephentown. Again, with one

hundred eighty megawatts, you know, that would require a reinforcement certainly within the -well inside of ten years. years. We decided to optimize the thirty-four point five kV option and work with engineers to let them know what we were doing to use their spacer cable technology, again, to connect on the west side of the loop and that east side loop. And ran that alternative and that It was more like six

alternative operated much better. It resulted in a performance that would, for the southern contingency, could supply up to two hundred and twenty-five megawatts of load. And, again, it didn't impact the 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Redirect - Metcalfe loss of Stephentown where that was limited to two hundred five megawatts again. So those were the

three thirty-four point five kV alternatives that we reviewed. Q. Thank you. And can you compare

those results in both of the contingency conditions you described? Loss of Churchtown/Craryville and Can you compare

loss of Greenbush/Stephentown?

those or can you describe what the equivalent values would be for the C.C.T.P. proposal? A. For the proposal, for loss of the

southern line, we can feed up to two hundred and fifty-two megawatts of district load and for Greenbush to Stephentown contingency, that's also two hundred fifty-two megawatts of load. Q. So, to put some calendar years on

those concepts, would assume a given load growth percentage number, but assuming that and solely to describe relative merits and demerits of these various alternatives, can you describe in calendar-year terms how long the four different proposals, the three different thirty-four point five kV proposals and the C.C.T.P. project. long each would go if there was a loss of 800.523.7887 How

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Lynch Panel - Redirect - Metcalfe Churchtown/Craryville? A. Yes. We've gotten information

over the last week of the summer of 2013 peak load levels and taking those into consideration, into our regression analysis. We've recalculated the

load forecast for this area. I think prior data responses had us a three point two five. That has dropped to

three point one percent based on the 2013 actual peak loads for this area. So based on that three point one percent growth, the town alternative number one would be good until the year 2014. The town alternative number two would be good until 2018. The NYSEG thirty-four

point five kV alternative would be good until 2026 and then the NYSEG proposed C.C.T.P. one fifteen kV alternative is good until 2030. Q. And in the contingency for loss

of Greenbush to Stephentown, what are the values? A. As I mentioned earlier, the three

thirty-four point five kV alternatives are all the same. They operate until 2023 and the one fifteen

kV alternative's good until the year 2030, as well. 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Redirect - Metcalfe Q. So for the contingency of loss of

Churchtown to Craryville, comparing the town alternative number two to the proposed C.C.T.P. project, you testified that the load level at which the town alternative two would max out is a hundred and eighty megawatts and the load level at which the NYSEG C.C.T.P. proposal at one fifteen kV would top out would be two hundred fifty-two megawatts. Can you describe the significance of those two numbers? What do they basically mean

in terms of how the system would operate and need to be reinforced further in the coming years and decades if one or the other of those alternatives were built? A. Q. A. That's a great question. Basically comparing --. Yeah. I think I followed you.

The NYSEG thirty-four -- excuse me. You said town number two? Q. A. Town number two. I'm sorry.

Town number two alternative, good

until 2018 without doing a lot of detail analysis, the obvious reinforcement at that point in time would be to do NYSEG's proposed one fifteen kV 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Redirect - Metcalfe alternative at that point in time. So we would be adding on a one fifteen kV alternative just, you know, five or six years down the road. And from a financial

standpoint, it didn't make any sense at all for the customers when, when we can get to a two hundred and fifty-two megawatt load level today by just going in and doing the one fifteen kV proposal right now. You're talking about a hundred eighty megawatts a load versus two hundred fifty-two. To put it in perspective, right now the

peak from Mechanicville, our thirteen peak was a hundred fifty-two -- a hundred forty-seven megawatts and we're talking about the NYSEG proposal, you know, going out to two hundred fifty-two megawatts. You're taking about more than a hundred megawatts of additional load that could be in the area. I mean, that's a long, long time and

with load forecasts what they are, you know, we try to be the best at being wrong. The forecasts are always wrong but we continue to monitor load forecasts and, you 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 greater. answer.

Lynch Panel - Redirect - Metcalfe know, as the future pans out, we'll continue to watch this and study it. To the extent that we can defer, we'll continue to defer to the extent that we can, that we need to accelerate the next reinforcement, we would accelerate. But our history has shown a It's over three

very strong growth in this area. percent.

It consistently is over three percent,

even during this economic downturn. It's one of the strongest growing areas in the NYSEG footprint. Q. And when the beginnings of this

project idea began in the early 1990's load -- the Mechanicville Division loads were equal to those levels today or less? A. Q. They were less. And the -- the extent of the need

for this project, do you believe it was equivalent in 1990 to the extent of its need today or is today's need much greater? A. Today's need is much, much

I didn't mean to hesitate on that last

The hours of exposure to have 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 questions. hostile.

Lynch Panel - Redirect - Metcalfe over four thousand hours of exposure in a year is absolutely unprecedented in our history. never had a project that looks this bad. I mean that's a lot of opportunity for loss of load and we deferred this as far and as long as we possibly can and we are way overdue to reinforce this area. Q. You just the word you've never a Did you mean to say We've

project that looks this bad? this project? A.

Permission to treat my counsel as

Q. A.

Please answer the question. Sorry, sir. I meant to say that

the conditions caused by this contingency are the worst that I've ever seen in my thirty years of planning. Q. Thank you. MR. METCALFE: No further

A.L.J. STEIN: redirect is for.

That's what

I just want to ask you a

follow-up question. I'm not that familiar with the 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 know, Judge.

Lynch Panel - Redirect - Metcalfe area and I did go on a two-day hike a couple of weeks ago and saw a lot of it. And I'm a little

surprised that the load growth protections are so aggressive because it is very rural area and, you know, a lot has, there's obviously been a lot of investment. development. Again, I'm speaking from the -not out of any serious study of the area. But I It's not exactly industrial

did want to ask you and this may be outside your area but do you have, are you projecting residential growth? Are you projecting anticipated commercial growth or industrial growth? the forecast? MR. McKINNEY: I really don't What is

I mean, basically, we look at the So in this case we look at six We had five

historical peaks.

years of actual historical peak. years.

We added a sixth year to include 2013 and

all I have to go on is what actually happened on the peak hour of the year. that one number? So we tracked those six numbers. 800.523.7887 You know? What was

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Lynch Panel - Redirect - Metcalfe We do a mathematical regression of those six numbers and that's what it comes out to be at three point one percent forecast for the future. But

there's no crystal ball there that says, you know, it's going to be industrial. A.L.J. STEIN: MR. McKINNEY: Right. A new chip plant

is going to come to the southern part of these counties? No. We don't know anything like that.

It's just based on actual, this is what's happened over the last six years. A.L.J. STEIN: And I guess a

related question is can you explain to me generally what, and I'm looking at the mini maps of the projected route, but what areas will actually be served by the new line? Just these towns, this area that are directly on the route? MR. McKINNEY: Well, the areas

that are actually impacted by the contingency go all way up to Stephentown and go all the way down to the two towns I mentioned this morning, Taghkanic and Copake. can be impacted. It's a very broad area that

Based on that peak hour, if that

contingency happened on that peak hour, and we were 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 footprint. or --?

Lynch Panel - Redirect - Metcalfe taking out those nine thousand nine hundred customers. It would include that wide range. A.L.J. STEIN: MR. McKINNEY: A.L.J. STEIN: And east/west? Full breadth. The full line

MR. McKINNEY:

The breadth of our

A.L.J. STEIN: MR. McKINNEY: A.L.J. STEIN:

Of, the footprint? Yes. Thank you. I

believe that concludes the questioning from this panel. MR. HURST: Your Honor, may I

have two questions on a brief recross based on Mr. Metcalf's redirect? A.L.J. STEIN: directly related to the redirect? MR. HURST: It is, absolutely. Yes. If it's

RECROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. HURST: Q. Mr. McKinney, during your

redirect with Mr. Metcalfe, I believe that you mentioned on several occasions what I think you may 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Recross - Hurst have referred to at one point as a northern contingency which was an outage of the Greenbush Stephentown line. It was also referred to at one Do you

point as the Lyonsville Stephentown line. remember that testimony? A. Q. (McKinney) Yes.

Is that second contingency I

guess that you testified to here today, are you advancing that as part of the justification for the C.C.T.P.? A. justification. Q. A. And you --? We are always trying to identify It certainly is part of the

the most beneficial result that solves multiple contingencies. We have a long laundry list of contingencies that are in that local transmission plan and this was identified as identifying many of them. When you've got a problem to the north, it's

not as bad, as I said, it's not as critical. If you have a contingency at the south, the ideal thing would be to link the two together so that's why we did the Stephentown Kline 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Kill option.

Lynch Panel - Recross - Hurst The other option is split it in the

middle which is what we're proposing which is the Valkin to Kline Kill contingency. So there's, you know, I don't label it as putting it forward as part of the reasons of benefits. There are multiple, multiple That

contingencies that this reinforcement helps. just helps in me telling the story between the north and south. Q. And am I correct that that

northern contingency is not mentioned in the application that is currently before the Commission? A. No. It's not. The driving

contingency and the limiting contingency is Churchtown/Craryville. Q. Thanks, Mr. McKinney. And now

Mr. McKinney, in response to Mr. Metcalfe's questioning, you were projecting out the, you know, I guess expiration dates of the various thirty-four point five kV options and I think town one was 2014, town two 2018 and I think NYSEG thirty-four five point twenty-six. testimony? 800.523.7887 Do you remember that

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Lynch Panel - Recross - Hurst A. Q. Yes. And is it fair for me to state

that those estimates are really driven in large part by load growth? A. Q. Absolutely. And so if load were to grow

slower during a particular period, those estimates may change, right? A. Right. The expiration date of

each of these alternatives would -- would grow proportionally if the forecast was, was less and it would accelerate if the forecast was higher. Q. And is it fair for me to state

that some of the things effecting load growth would be something -- well, withdrawn. Is it fair for me to state that something like the implementation of energy efficiency programs would be one way to reduce the load in a particular area? A. It absolutely is. And that's one

of the sections that we do identify in the article seven is energy efficiencies. We don't believe

there's any energy efficiencies that are on the cusp that are going to solve this problem. 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Recross - Hurst We think it's just the opposite. You know this is a problem. for a long time. It's been a problem

This is such a big problem to

solve that energy efficiency isn't going to do it. If anything, load will continue to grow as we continue to push to electric cars, as we continue to move more and more electronically. We're using more and more electricity and the actual fact that we've got three percent growth in this area over the last six years with the economic downturn is proof of that. Q. And would it also have an impact

on load growth, if for example, another source were brought into the area? A. Another source into Kline Kill Yes.

would -- would impact the issue. Q. A.

And that would --? Either Kline Kill or Stephentown

in order for it to have any impact at all. Q. But another source brought into

either of those substations would serve to further reduce the load growth estimates that we've been discussing here today, right? A. Oh. Absolutely not. It has -800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. BLOW:

Lynch Panel - Recross - Hurst and I'm sorry if I led you down that road. It I

has -- it would have no impact on load growth. mean load growth is totally independent of the transmission system that's up there. Q. But those sources could serve

load in the same areas to be served by the C.C.T.P., is that correct? A. trying to make. Well, that was the point I was It's yes. It could serve load.

It's not going to solve this problem. Q. Thanks, Mr. McKinney. MR. BLOW: could ask one question? A.L.J. STEIN: Yes. Please. Your Honor? If I

RECROSS EXAMINATION

Q.

Mr. Metcalfe had mentioned Do you remember that, Mr.

running out of gas. McKinney? A. Q.

Yes. And we were wondering though

whether you shouldn't be siting a gas transmission line. A. I think we should. I like the 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 on the rise. way he thinks.

Lynch Panel - Recross - Blow I would love to have a generator at

Kline Kill but I don't want to go there. Transmission planners never want to build a transmission. MR. BLOW: Thank you, Your Honor. Since counsel has

A.L.J. STEIN:

opened up this line of questioning, let me throw in another one of mine, of my own. What about customer-sited sources of supply and again I'm not familiar with whether any are planned or what the growth patterns have been on customer-sited. MR. McKINNEY: They are sporadic.

We do have a customer outside of Stephentown that has put in some generation. technology. It's a new type of

It's not -- it's not making steam and

turning a rotor but we haven't seen a lot of other significant customer-generated electricity in New York. We have photovoltaics clearly are And they will continue to help us to But,

the extent that they become more economic.

again, in this situation, we are way past to the due date, as far as putting something in. It will 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Recross - Blow certainly help shave those peaks in the future as the technology continues and we can use that in the future for projects but there's nothing on the horizon right now that we foresee that would come close to -- to foregoing the need of this project. MR. BLOW: Your Honor, may I ask

how big a generator Mr. McKinney would like to see at Kline Kill? MR. McKINNEY: Seventy-nine point That's

five megawatts is what I was going to say.

my threshold number, so that would be a nice big three unit combustion turbine. A.L.J. STEIN: have to come back here again. MR. McKINNEY: be in that gas routing but -A.L.J. STEIN: So are there any Well, I wouldn't And you'll never

other questions for this witness panel? MR. GREENBERG: Judge, if you

don't mind, just a couple of questions following up on the thirty-four point five? A.L.J. STEIN: Please.

RECROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. GREENBERG: 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 thirty-four. it?

Lynch Panel - Recross - Greenberg Q. Mr. Lynch, do you have the I

response to project Jens P.G. 5 in front of you? think I entered it as Exhibit Thirty-five. A.L.J. STEIN: MR. GREENBERG: Thank you, Your Honor. A. Q. P.G. 5? Right. Is that what you said? P.G. 5. Exhibit Thirty-four. Thirty-four, was

A.L.J. STEIN:

BY MR. GREENBERG: Q. A. Q. Exhibit Thirty-four. (Lynch) Yes, I do.

Mr. Lynch, you prepared the

response to Exhibit Thirty-four, is that correct? A. Q. Yes, sir. Okay. If you could just go to

page three of eight and in the first paragraph there where it talks of, that the path points were identified as being the optimal path points based on load -- information for the circuits served by Kline Kill and Craryville as well as contingenceis determined by system configurations outside of the four thirty-four point five kV circuits. 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Recross - Greenberg What are those contingencies that you were considering at that time? A. I'm just reading this here. I

think that in the -- well in the study in the load flow analysis that would have been completed in studying this, we would look at the loss of the critical elements but then also make adjustments to the system to the extent that there are normally open points on the lines that could be closed. The normal operational steps that our operations' people would undertake with the loss of an element, we made sure to model any of those adjustments and, then, at that point, this is when you determine whether or not the system is in fact surviving that contingency or if there are problems. Other contingencies in the vicinity would also be studied other than simply the main contingency that we're looking at. So, we want to do sort of a sensitivity analysis to make sure that where as we may have looked at, analyzed and perhaps resolved one particular contingency, that we make sure there's not another contingency that would be a 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Recross - Greenberg problem given the slight reconfiguration that happens immediately following the outage. Q. Okay. And in the next

paragraph -- again, I apologize because maybe this is from another panel but it speaks of the NYSEG Planning Department prepared the initial order of magnitude cost estimates. So were you involved in the order of magnitude cost estimates? A. Is that separate?

The Planning Department

typically, and I think Mr. McKinney spoke about this earlier because this is a timeframe that, you know, is under his purview. But, the Planning Department does request estimates from our engineering groups and from the routing team and these other things. this might be a slight misstatement of the fact that we request those estimates and then perhaps assemble them for review. MR. GREENBERG: very much, sir. A.L.J. STEIN: other questions for this panel? much. You may step down. Are there any Thank you very Okay. Thank you, So

Thank you for your very 800.523.7887

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Lynch Panel - Recross - Greenberg informative testimony. MR. METCALFE: Your Honor, thank

Can I just confirm for this panel that there is no confidential material that would be the subject of executive session process but rather that would wait for the conclusion of the Carol Howland panel. A.L.J. STEIN: And Ms. Wilkinson,

you don't have any confidential areas for this panel? MS. WILKINSON: A.L.J. STEIN: No. Thank you very

much. I'm going to go off the record. (Off the record) MR. METCALFE: NYSEG calls the

panel of Carol Howland, Sarah Gilstrap and Dusty Werth. A.L.J. STEIN: Will the witnesses

please stand and raise your right hand and please repeat after me. I hereby affirm that the testimony I am about to give today is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Honor.

Lynch Panel - Recross - Greenberg Thank you. Sworn CAROL HOWLAND SARAH GILSTRAP DUSTY WERTH MR. HURST: Thank you, Your You may be seated.

BY MR. HURST: Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Werth MR. HURST: didn't get your name? MS. CROSS: MR. HURST: Lynn Cross. Thanks very much. and, I'm sorry I

CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. HURST: (Cont'g.) Q. Now panel, you'll see that I just

put up on the easel here just a bit of a blow-up of Figure 3-2 from NYSEG's application in this proceeding. Just as before, the only reason I'm doing that is just so we'll have a common page we can refer to as we go forward here. What I would ask now if you'd please turn to Exhibit Three, section 3.2 of the 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst application, please? And just as a preliminary matter matter, I mean, as I understand what it is that this panel is responsible for in these kinds of projects and just how you go about your work. Is it fair for me to state that in a project such as this one, a study area is identified. And then it is -- one of the first

tasks for folks like yourselves is to identify where in that study area switching stations or substations should be located? A. Q. Yes. And so the identification of

locations for a switching station or substation precedes any routing decisions, correct? A. (Wertg) Correct. You have to

have the starting point and the ending point before you can start developing that. Q. And then the route is simply a

matter of connecting those two points, right? A. Q. Yes. And in this case, the company has

proposed two alternative sites for the Gant switching station, correct? 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst A. Q. behind me, right? A. Q. Correct. And both of those alternative Correct. And those are shown on Figure 3-2

sites are in what the application describes as active agricultural fields, is that correct? A. Q. That is correct. And with respect to alternative

site one, when that site was originally proposed as an alternative for this project, did you know how long that property had been in active agricultural use? A. Q. No. Before designated alternative

site one as part of the application in this case, had you conducted any research into the ownership tenure, title, those kinds of things? A. No. I don't believe any title

search has been done on any properties with this project. Q. to -- withdrawn. With respect to the second 800.523.7887 And would your answer be the same

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Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst alternative site, before designating that site as an alternative in this case, did you know how long that site had been in active agricultural use? A. No. A.L.J. STEIN: need -- are your microphones on? Excuse me. You

The light goes on

them and you need to speak into them and I think you seem to be missing the piece on the top. you. BY MR. HURST: (Cont'g.) Q. Do you know an approximate Thank

timeframe of when it was then that you all had settled on these two alternative sites for the Ghent switching station? A. early in 2011. I believe it would have been Let me look. A.L.J. STEIN: We're going to

mark Exhibit number Thirty-nine for identification and this is a two-page document, information request and responses, number P.G.-12 and the respondents are Dusty Werth and Lynn Cross (phonetic spelling). BY MR. HURST: (Cont'g.) Q. Mr. Werth, before we start, why 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst don't you take a look at what has just been marked for identification and let me know if this is in your bailiwick or Mr. Cross's bailiwick. A. responsibility. Q. Okay. And so P.G.-12 is, correct (Werth) I believe this is my

me if I'm wrong, Mr. Werth, the applicant's response to protect against discovery requests concerning some communications the company had received from Summit Development Group or its representatives, correct? A. Q. Correct. And that -- or one of those

communications from Summit Development Group was received around March 29th, 2011, correct? A. Q. Yes. And before you had designated

alternative site one and two as shown on figure 3.3-2, had you investigated, for lack of a better term, the proposal that was made to you by Summit Development Group? A. We had already looked at

properties owned by them. Q. And, so, it's your testimony 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst today that the correspondence that you received on March 29th, 2011 was, for lack of better term, something you already knew? A. Q. Could you repeat that? Yeah. I believe your testimony

just now was that you had already looked at lands owned by Summit Development Group before designating alternative sites one and two, right? A. Q. Correct. And did that happen before or

after you received Mr. Vetter's (phonetic spelling) correspondence in March of 2011? A. We had already looked at the

properties in the industrial park prior to communication with Summit Development Group. Q. And just so we're clear, neither

of alternative site one or two are located on lands that are owned by Summit Development Group, correct? A. Q. Correct. And so the lands that were

proposed in P.G.-12 were not selected as part of the alternative analysis in this case, correct? A. Correct. 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst Q. And alternative site one is not

actually -- well withdrawn. Looking at figure 3-2, there is an industrial park just to the north of alternative site one, correct? A. Q. Correct. And alternative site one is not

actually in that industrial park, correct? A. Q. Correct. And I think we were all out at

that site together a couple of weeks ago and looking again at figure 3-2, isn't that the case that there's a stand of trees and vegetation between alternative site one and the industrial park? A. Yes. There are trees behind the

site in the industrial park. Q. And is it -- I may just ask you

this based on your recollection or you can tell from the contous lines, is the industrial park topographically higher than alternative site one? A. Q. It appears to be. And with respect to alternative

site one also, isn't that the case that there is a 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst stand of trees and vegetation between alternative site one and Route 9h currently? A. Yes. There are trees between

alternate site one and Route 9h. Q. And if you turn to section 3.2.1

of the application, the suggestion is made that that stand of vegetation between alternative site one and Route 9h will screen the substation if that alternative site were ultimately certificated, is that right? A. Q. Yes. Now, in the application there is

some reference on page three dash one and page 3-2 to some information you have received from the National Park Service about Route 9h, is that correct? A. Q. Yes. And Route 9h has some cultural

significance according to the National Park Service, is that right? A. Route 9h is the primary access

route to the Martin Van Buren House which is a national registered historic site and also a National Park Service site and they did ask that we 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst try to screen the project as much as possible from the viewshed of 9h. Q. Now if the alternative site one

were selected and certificated and the switching station built there, circuit seven twenty-six would need to exit that site somehow, correct? A. Q. Yes. And circuit seven twenty-six

would actually exit the alternative site one switching station then cross Route 9h, is that right? A. Q. Yes. What would be the width of the

right-of-way just to the east, I guess, of the switching station fence line? A. Q. A. Q. For circuit seven twenty-six? Yes. It would be a hundred feet. And just so we're clear on the

record, that would be new right-of-way, right; that doesn't exist now? A. Q. Correct. And that right-of-way would then

extend beyond Route 9h to the east, correct? 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst A. Q. That is correct. And between Route 9h and the

switching station, there would be some structures, correct? A. Q. Yes. And I know you're not the pole

and structure panel, so I'm not going to ask you how many. And, so, after construction, there would

the switching station, some structures leading out along the right-of-way across 9h and beyond, right? A. Q. That is correct. And so potentially, there could

be a corridor of sorts between Route 9h and the switching station, right? A. Yes. The right-of-way would be a

Q.

Now have you, Mr. Werth,

consulted with the current owners -- well, withdrawn. NYSEG does not currently own either of those alternative sites, is that right? A. Q. That is correct. And before selecting alternative

site one, for example, had you conferred with the 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Withdrawn.

Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst property owner as to their future intended use of the property if any? A. Q. No. If I could turn your attention, In

Mr. Werth, to page 3-2 of the application.

particular, section 3.2.1, alternative site one. And there is a sentence that states the site was determined to have negligible impact on surrounding land uses due to the adjacent industrial part and a large amount of screening from public roadways in nearby residences. Do you see that sentence? A. Q. Yes. Did you make any assessment as to

what degree of impact the use of alternative site one would have on the then existing uses of that parcel? A. Yes. The -- the agricultural

land underneath the site would be converted from agricultural use to an industrial use on this site. Q. You were told that was the case?

I think maybe we're ships passing in the night on that question. 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 parcel.

Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst Is it your response that the footprint of the switching station would change the use of alternative site one from agricultural to industrial? Is that what you just answered? A. Q. Yes. Okay. And as to the overall use

of that parcel, is it fair to say that the construction of the switching station would have more than a negligible impact on the existing use of that parcel? A. It would have an impact on that

Q.

And what's the, roughly what's

the footprint of the switching station? A. Q. I believe it's two acres. Okay. And so a two-acre

electrical switching station in an agricultural field, is it fair for me to say that that would have more than a negligible impact on the continued use of that field for agriculture? A. It would have an impact. I

believe it would remove approximately six percent of the agricultural land. Q. And if you look at figure 3-2, 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst Mr. Werth -- let me make sure I've got that right. Yeah. Just put figure 3-3 from the application back up on the easel, can you see that from where you're sitting? A. Q. Yes. Or am I in your way? And so the

company has also proposed some alternatives for the extension of National Grid trunk number fifteen, is that correct? A. Q. Yes. That's correct.

And those are located here in the

southwest corner, shown in blue, on figure 3-3? A. Q. Yes. Now is it true, Mr. Werth, that

alternative to the trunk line extension leading to alternative site one has at least two stream crossings involved? A. Q. I believe that's correct. And the second alternative, the

trunk line extension that leads to alternative site number two, is it correct for me to state that that has at least two stream crossings and probably more based on the need for lines to leave that switching 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. HURST:

Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst station and get along the route? A. (Howland) We're going to have to The stream maps.

look at the stream crossing maps. Q. Okay.

Why don't you go ahead and

do that and let us know. MR. METCALFE: Can I ask for

clarification on the question when he says leaving the Ghent switching station. Do you mean the one

fifteen kV line coming from the west or the one fifteen kV line heading to the east? MR. HURST: Sure. You know, let

me withdraw and rephrase and maybe it will clarify. You guys hold on a second. (Cont'g.) Q. And so as far as the National

Grid trunk number 15 extension line into the Ghent switching station as proposed in alternative site two, are there at least two stream crossings that would be involved in that -- construction of that trunk line? A. (Werth) Yes. I believe there's

two stream crossings. Q. And then that alternative would

also require additional stream crossings for the 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 question?

Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst hundred and fifteen kV line to leave the switching station and continue on the route, correct? A. Q. A. Q. Circuit seven twenty-six? Yes. Yes. And panel, is it NYSEG's position

in this case that there were no other reasonable alternative sites for the switching stations that were closer to National Grid trunk 15? A. (Howland) Could you repeat the

Q.

Yeah.

In proposing these two

alternatives, is it fair to state that NYSEG believed that there were no other reasonable alternatives for the switching station site that were closer to National Grid trunk 15? A. I'm sure you could find other

sites that are closer to the National Grid trunk line. However, we looked at the ones that are the closest to where we would have to go. You could go all the way up and probably find some other sites that might suit the criteria. But, in looking at the overall dynamics, 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst we were wanted to be closer to where we could follow our extending corridor and come closer to the National Grid line, a shorter distance. So there's not -- I can't say there's nothing else out there but you got to look at the whole package in siting this. Q. Okay. And, in your response, Am I

you're referring to an existing corridor.

incorrect that NYSEG has no existing corridor in the area between Route 9h and National Grid trunk number 15? A. No. We do not have a corridor in

However, we have a corridor going down from

our Kline Kill substation and part of our routing criteria, we try to follow existing corridors where possible. Q. Right. And I just so my question

is clear and this seems fairly obvious, but you're not following any existing corridors in the area that we're discussing now, right? A. corridor here. No. We're not following existing

However, if you go up, the line

starts going off towards the west and so you're going to have different impacts. If you try to go 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 road? Route 9h.

Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst up the line and go to the west, you're going to have a lot -- a longer line and have other potential impacts to get to that point such as crossing wetlands, coming near historic resources. So you can't say there's no other site but you've got to look at how to get to that site as well. Q. And have any of those other sites

been analyzed in the application that has been filed with the Commission? A. Q. No. What is the company's proposal to

access the alternative site one Ghent switching station? A. (Werth) Access would be off of

Q.

Okay.

And so that would be an

access road of some kind? A. Q. Yes. Would that be a permanent access

A. Q.

I believe it would be. And what's -- just try to tell me

a little about -- about what you mean by a 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 No. assessments.

Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst permanent access road? You know? What is the

surface of that kind of road? A. (Howland) We haven't determined The road itself

the characteristics of that route.

will be defined in the environmental management construction phase of the project. Q. Okay. And, so, until we actually

know the design details of that road, it is difficult if not impossible to assess its environmental impacts, isn't that right? A. We could make some preliminary

For example I could look at the map

and say you're not crossing a wetlands, you can see regulated wetlands, so you could do some preliminary assessments. Yes.

Do I know the exact width of it? Do we have an approximate idea where it's Can we look at and say yes, we're Yes.

going to go yet?

looking at ag fields and wetlands?

So you could do some preliminary assessments of it. A.L.J. STEIN: I'm going to mark

this as Exhibit Forty for identification and it is a one-page sheet, interrogatories and responses to 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst agriculture and markets number five. BY MR. HURST: (Cont'g.) Q. Mr. Werth and Ms. Howland, as

Judge Stein just mentioned, you've been handed a copy of what is the company's response to the Department of Agriculture and Markets I.R. A.G.M. -5 and in this I.R. response, there is some discussion about the portion of the application in which the company discusses a potential conversion of alternative site one from its current use to a commercial industrial use based on zoning, is that right? A. Q. Yes. And before drawing that

conclusion in the application and in response to Ag Market's information request, had you consulted with the property owner as to their future plans for the site? A. No. We have not had a

consultation with the owner. Q. And would that conclusion change

if you had known that the site had been in active agricultural use for let's say a hundred years? A. I don't believe so because the 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst zoning is there and also town of Ghent comprehensive plan encourages development of that area for commercial and industrial use. Q. And -- and what if the property

owner told you that they had no intention of making their lands available for commercial and industrial use? Would that change your conclusion? A. I don't believe so. A.L.J. STEIN: I will take this It

as Exhibit number Forty-one for identification. is a five-page document, information request and responses of G.P.S. 13. BY MR. HURST: (Cont'g.) Q. Panel, have you had an

opportunity to review the exhibit that's just been marked for identification? A. Q. (Werth) (Howland) Yes. And so am I correct then in that

I.R. response -- the company represents, as you testified here today, to the lack of discussions with the current landowners of alternative site one? A. (Howland) We have had no

discussions with the current owner of that 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. HURST: Honor. drainage of microphone. property.

Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst

Q.

And so it's fair to say that the

company hasn't conferred with the owner concerning the frequency of flooding on that parcel, is that correct? A. We've had no discussions with the

property owner on that parcel. A.L.J. STEIN: Please use the

MS. HOWLAND: A.

I'm sorry.

We have not had any discussions

with the property owner on that parcel. BY MR. HURST: (Cont'g.) Q. And so that would include as to

that site or their use of the site or

their future intended use of that site, correct? MR. METCALFE: Asked and answered. A.L.J. STEIN: (Cont'g.) Q. the application? Where it says evaluation of alternative sites. 800.523.7887 Can you turn to section 3.2.3 of That's sustained. Objection, Your

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 zone. section?

Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst A. 3. --? Q. A. Q. 3.2.3. Yes. Okay. And is it fair for me to (Howland) Can you repeat the

say that in the first paragraph, the company is explaining four or five potential purported benefits of alternative site one, is that generally correct? A. Q. (Werth) Yes.

And the first among those is the

zoning classification, right? A. Q. Correct. And is it the company's position

that if that were, for example, a residential agricultural zoning district that it could not build a substation -- the switching station there? A. No. It could be built in R.A. 1

Q.

And I see also that in section

3.2.3, one of the benefits of alternative site one is that it's not within any maps of wetlands or flood plains, right? A. That is correct. 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst Q. And it is nearly level also,

A. Q.

Correct. And aren't those three

characteristics not flood plane -- wetland, flood plane also present in alternative site two? A. Q. Yes. And we've already discussed

screening and adjacency so I won't repeat the question. And with respect to alternative site

two, the same section of the application explains some purported disadvantages of that site, right? A. Q. Correct. And one of those is that the

alternative site two is adjacent to residential uses, correct? A. Q. Correct. If you could just get before you

figure 3-2 of the application for a moment? A. Q. All right. Am I correct that there's sort of

a wooded or shrub area that separates the residential use to the east of the proposed alternative site two? 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 buffer there.

Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst A. Yes. There is a small tree

Q.

Okay.

And what can you tell me

about the elevation?

I see lots of contour lines What does that tell you,

between those two sites?

Mr. Werth, as to whether that's a rise or a dip or what the topography looks like there? A. Q. At the site? In between the proposed

alternative site two and what appears to be a residence there to the east? A. It's within the same contour, so

it would be approximately the same height -- same elevation. Q. Okay. And alternative site two

is actually closer to Widows Creek, correct? A. Q. Correct. But Widow's Creek is being

crossed in either alternative, right? A. Q. Yes. I'll correct that. A tributary to Widow's Creek perhaps in alternative site one, is that right? A. Yes. I believe it is Widow's 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst

Q.

And, so, in reviewing those

benefits and disadvantages, has the company determined that it's better to impact an active agricultural use than to be near a residential use? A. I believe both sites would impact

an active agricultural site. Q. If you could turn to section

3.3.2 of the application? A. Q. Sure. Okay.

Now, this section deals with it's

titled major route alternatives, right? A. Q. Correct. Okay. And if we look at figure

3.3-3, I'm going to have to turn my back on you here for a moment. Isn't it the case that no alternative has been proposed from roughly the alternative one proposed Ghent switching station site to approximately Fowler Lake Road? A. That is correct. All four

alternatives share that segment. Q. Okay. And then the only

alternative say from where I've got the pointer 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 same --.

Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst right now to the Kline Kill substation, really turns on which side of the right-of-way, right? A. I believe that area that you're

highlighting is all on a single side. Q. Okay. So, there's no alternative

proposed from here to the Kline Kill substation? A. Yes. Roughly. I'm not exactly

sure where they split off from this distance but yeah. Q. Okay. And, so, in reality what's

been proposed are alternative segments to the route. We don't actually have a whole alternative

route, do we? A. I would define them as

alternative routes. Q. Right. But in each case, it

would be identical from Route 9h to roughly Fowler Lake Road, right? A. Yes. They all share that

Q.

And now I'm correct, am I not,

that the company has proposed no part and no alternative to the undergrounded? A. That is correct. 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst Q. Then, Mr. Werth, Ms. Howland and

Ms. Gilstrap, isn't it also the case that both of the alternatives will actually traverse areas that are now subject to conservation easements? A. (Werth) That is correct. We're going to

A.L.J. STEIN:

mark for Exhibit Forty-two, for identification, a four-page document, Interrogatories and Responses, A.G.M.-6. BY MR. HURST: (Cont'g.) Q. Now, panel, A.G.M.-Six, actually

is an information request, in which the company was asked to provide information on conservation easements, over any of the agricultural properties, correct? A. Q. (Werth) Correct.

And the company's response, as I

understand it, is in sum and substance that you all were able to look up, the two -- the two conservation easements identified in your response, in the National Conservation Easement Database, is that right? A. Q. That's correct. And is that a publicly available 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst

A. Q.

Yes, it is. And had you consulted that

database, before you proposed the alternative routes there, projected in the application? A. Yes. And we had also met with

Farming Land Services. Q. And so it's your testimony then,

that -- that you knew, in laying out the route, that it would cross the Columbia County Lancaster Conservation Easement, which covers the Siegel-Kline Kill Conservation area, correct? A. Q. Correct. And how about the -- the second

conservation easement identified in the company's response, correct me if I'm wrong, but that covers the Gallagher Stud Farm, right? A. Q. That is correct. And were you familiar with the

existence of that easement when you laid out your route? A. Q. Yes, we were. And did you also meet with the

owners of Gallagher's Stud Farm, before deciding to 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 In Exhibit -3-8.

Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst propose the routes as -- had been proposed? A. landowners prior. Q. Did you speak with the owners or No, we didn't meet with any

managers of Gallagher's Stuff Farm, when you discovered the distance of that conservation easement? A. No, I did not. MR. HURST: And if you turn,

panel, if you would, to Section 3-8 of the application. MR. WERTH: MR. HURST: What section? Yeah. 3-8? Section 3-8.

A.L.J. STEIN: MR. HURST: MR. WERTH:

Yeah.

I don't have a Figure

MR. METCALFE:

Here.

MR. HURST: MR. HURST:

Yeah. Yeah.

Let's --. That's --

let's try page three, actually. BY MR. HURST: (Cont'g.) Q.

My mistake.

And you see on that page, where 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst there are lists of advantages and disadvantages of alternative site two? A. Q. (Werth) (Howland) Yes. And so one of the advantages

listed are lesser amount of forest clearing, right? A. Q. Correct. And before, sort of, determining

advantages and disadvantages, did you make an assessment as to the quality or characteristics of the forests that would be cleared under the various alternatives? A. Q. Could you repeat that? Sure. Before laying out the

advantages and disadvantages of the particular sites, for example, lesser amount of forest clearing, had you made any assessment as to the quality or characteristics of the forest that would be cleared? A. Q. No. And alternative site two -- or

I'm sorry, alternative two, has other advantages. For example -- listed in the application for example, it says uses the most existing right-of-way. 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 right? right? advantages?

Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst Do you see that listed in the

A. Q.

Yes. And isn't it true then, that that

is really referring to this segment, that I'm gesturing to right now with the pointer? A. Q. Yes. Okay. I believe so. And, so, that benefit or

advantage is really limited to that segment, correct? That additional segment where the existing right-of-way is followed, in alternative two, but not in alternative one, right? A. Q. Correct. But in terms of disadvantages,

alternative site two, is a longer route, correct? A. Q. Correct. It impacts more shallow soils,

A. Q.

Yes. It impacts more erodible soils,

A.

It has a longer length, through

highly erodible soils. 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 feet. yes.

Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst Q. Okay. And it also has a longer

length through agricultural soils, correct? A. Through prime agricultural soils,

Q.

Let's talk, just for a moment, And this is where I

about right-of-way widths.

think that this might be your -- your area and -and these are addressed, in -- in some respects, in Exhibit Four of the application. table 4-2. A. Q. Okay. Okay. What is the present width Page 4-17 and

of the circuit nine eight four right-of-way? A. (Howland) A hundred and fifty

Q.

Okay.

And the circuit nine

eighty-four right-of-way, will be widened by how much, were alternative two be certificated? A. twenty-five feet. Q. Okay. So, it's one fifty plus (Werth) It will be widened by

twenty-five, so that will be a hundred and seventy-five foot right-of-way? A. That is correct. 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst Q. And in the application, I saw

some reference to a buffer zone, for what we'll refer to as danger trees. familiar? A. Q. Yes. And is that outside the hundred Does that sound

and seventy-five feet, or is that included in the hundred and seventy-five feet? A. (Howland) A danger tree can be

outside of the hundred and seventy-five feet. Q. Is there some standard, for

example is there a -- a twenty-five foot buffer zone that the company would be searching for danger trees then, in removing, if there -- if they're there? A. Danger trees are those that have And we would look

the ability to impact the line.

for trees that are specific -- are of a height and condition, that may impact the line and we call that a danger tree. I cannot say if it's five feet or It's a tree that could impact the line. Q. And those would -- those would be

trees, as I understand your response, that would be 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst tall enough to maybe fall on the line? A. Yes. A danger tree is one that

could be tall enough to fall on the line. Q. Okay. So, potentially an

old-growth tree, maybe, would be one that would be that height? A. I -- potentially there could be a

tree that height, yeah. Q. And the width of the new

right-of-way, circuit number seven -- seven twenty-six, can you tell us how wide that will be? A. (Werth) It will be a hundred

feet, where it is not adjacent to line nine eight four. Q. And for the trunk line

extensions, for the extensions of -- I'm actually referring to trunk number fifteen, am I correct that those are a hundred and fifty foot right-of-way? A. Yes. Each -- it would be a Each of the two

hundred and fifty feet total.

lines would have a hundred foot right-of-way, with fifty feet overlapping. A.L.J. STEIN: I'm going to mark, 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst as Exhibit Number Forty-three, for identification -- sorry, a two-page document, D.P.S. 5., Interrogatory Request and -- and their responses. MR. HURST: while I'm at it. A.L.J. STEIN: MR. HURST: the same line of questioning. (Off-the-record discussion) A.L.J. STEIN: And I will mark as Sure. Could I mark one more

This is going to be

Exhibit Forty-four, for identification, a one-page document, P.G. 14, Information Request and Response. MR. HURST: Okay. Panel, if you

could also turn to section 4.1.2.2 of the application, access roads. BY MR. HURST: (Cont'g.) Q. Okay. Now, just help me

We discussed a little bit earlier,

permanent access roads, right? There's also some reference in the application, to unimproved access roads, right? A. (Werth) Yes. 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst Q. And what would be the intended

use of an unimproved access road? A. It would be for temporary access

to install the structure. Q. Okay. And what is the

difference, just in terms of how they're constructed, between a permanent access road and an unimproved access road? A. I believe an unimproved access

road, would be simply grading, where necessary to allow access to the structure, but would not be maintained as a road, after construction. be allowed to revegitate natively. A permanent access road would be permanently maintained as a road. Q. A. So --? (Howland) In fact, temporary It would

erosion and sediment control measures would be installed in an unimproved temporary road, if needed, stream crossings so forth, on temporary road. And that -- that -- those measures would --. A.L.J. STEIN: Please use the microphone. MS. HOWLAND: I'm sorry. 800.523.7887 Excuse me.

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Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst A.L.J. STEIN: MS. HOWLAND: A.L.J. STEIN: closer to you. MS. HOWLAND: A.L.J. STEIN: A. (Howland) And -- and a -Thanks. You can move it -Okay. -- like six inches

-- temporary road, we

would have temporary measures installed and those measures would be removed upon completion of the project. And permanent, as it -- it implies, would

be permanent measures installed. BY MR. HURST: Q. (Cont'g.) And the purpose of those

unimproved roads, would be to allow construction equipment and -- and labor force, et cetera, to get in and out of the construction site, correct? A. Q. (Howland) Okay. Correct.

And so, those roads would

need to be built to a standard, sufficient to support, for example, construction equipment, right? A. Q. Correct. And both permanent and unimproved

access roads would require, in some instances, some 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst additional clearing, correct? A. Depending upon where they're

Q.

And is there also the possibility

at least, that the construction of those roads would require the deposit of some fill material, in order to bring them up to grade, or -- or to otherwise deal with issues along the route? A. It is possible. Depending upon

the on-site specific conditions at the time. Q. Okay. Now, if I could turn your

attention to the two information request responses, that have been marked for identification, let's look first at -- at D.P.S.-5. Now, am I correct that in D.P.S. -5, the company identifies a proposed permanent access road that extends from CoySauls (phonetic spelling) Drive, to the circuit nine eighty-four right-of-way? A. (Werth) Yes. There is an

existing access road there, currently. Q. Okay. Is -- and is that an

access road that the company has use-rights in? A. (Howland) I'm not aware of the 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst usage rights, we may or may not have for that area. Q. Okay. Why don't you take a look

for me at P.G.-14 of the company's response to number one. And you can perhaps read that in to the record, Ms. Howland? A. (Reading) "Applicant currently

has no ownership, use or possessionary rights in -in any access road that may currently exist near Coswell (phonetic spelling) Drive." Q. Now, panel, if I could get you,

if you would, to turn in the application, to Figure 2-3 -- it's actually 2-3 A through J. It's, I

think what's commonly called a map book. In particular, I'd ask you to take a look at Panel 2-3 E, page five of ten. Got it? A. Q. (Werth) Okay. Yeah. And -- and just so

there -- so that I'm clear, the company's proposal is to access well -- withdrawn. And so I'm correct am I not, that the purple, orange and green line that leads to the north, roughly that vicinity is circuit nine 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst eighty-four and proposed circuit seven twenty-six? A. (Werth) Q. Okay. MR. BLOW: And can I inquire Yes.

which -- what exhibit -- what page of the application are we on? MR. HURST: I'm in Figure 2-3 E.

It's page five of ten, in -- in what I think is the map book, Steve. BY MR. HURST: (Cont'g.) Q. And so Mr. Werth, as -- as I

understand the company's response to D.P.S.-5 and P.G.-14, and correct me if I'm wrong, the proposal is to utilize an access road that would begin at the end of Coswell Drive? A. Q. I believe that's correct, yes. Okay. And that it would -- it

would -- it would move, in roughly a westerly direction, until it reached the circuit nine eighty-four right-of-way, correct? A. Q. Yes. Do you know if the company has

had any discussions with any of the owners of the residences along Coswell Drive -- Drive, regarding 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst that proposed use? A. Q. I'm not aware of any. Okay. And in looking at the

aerial photos, including 2-3 E, does it appear to you that the development of Coswell Drive is a newer development, than some of the other ones that surround it? A. I would say it -- it is a newer

Q.

And is it -- would it be the

case, then, that the company is -- is actually proposing that it's vehicles and equipment, would drive along Coswell Drive to the access road? that generally right? A. Q. Yes. And then the access road would Is

cross, what appears on -- on the company's diagram to be a -- an unnamed tributary, until it reaches the right-of-way, right? A. Q. Yes. And -- you know, I'm not sure how

accurate the -- the company's mapping is, but does it -- it appear to you, that that unnamed tributary -- well, withdrawn. 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst Mr. Werth, do you know what the topography is in this area, sort of what's high and what's low? A. I don't off the top of my head,

Q.

Okay.

Does it seem logical that

the unnamed tributary would flow from the north to the south, in -- in Figure 2-3 E? Does that seem

consistent with your understanding of the region? A. Q. Yes. And so, based on the company's

mapping, it shows actually the end of that unnamed tributary, in the area, near the end of Coswell Drive, right? A. Q. Correct. Okay. And so there's the

potential at least, that the source or headwater of that unnamed tributary could be in that area? A. Q. Yes. And that's an area where the

company is, at this time, proposing to install a permanent access road, right? A. There already is a road that

crosses the stream, in that location. 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst Q. Okay. There is a road, in which

the company has no rights, correct? A. Q. Correct. Actually, let's -- let's just

stick with the map book, for a while, if -- if you don't mind and just -- you know, look at a few things here. Beginning with page five of ten, in the map book -- let me just get myself organized here. Now, that is the point at which circuit seven twenty-six, heading west of that point, is on a new right-of-way, correct? A. Q. Correct. Or is proposed to be on the new

Okay.

And, so, when circuit

seven twenty-six, first turns to the west and leaves the existing circuit nine eighty-four right-of-way, it appears to me, to go through a -a -- a stand of forests or trees. this correct? A. Q. Yes. Okay. That's correct. And so that would be an 800.523.7887 Am I reading

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Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst area of permanent clearing, to the company's right-of-way, with -- in the entire area that's shown in green, in that first segment, right? A. Q. Correct. Okay. And so in some respects,

is it fair for me to say that the right-of-way, is going to bisect what is now a cohesive stand of woodlands? A. existing stand. Q. Okay. And if you turn to 2-3 G, Yes. It will cut through an

page seven of ten -- and again, am I correct that moving in from the east, that first segment is circuit seven twenty-six, again through what is currently a large and intact stand of woodlands? A. Q. Yes. And then, as you get across

Schmidt Road, to the northwest, can you tell me if that's a woodland area, all the way to the top of that page, or is that mixed shrub woodland? A. I believe, from this map, it

appears to be mixed shrub woodland. Q. Okay. And then if you turn to

2-3 I, does it appear there, in sort of a -- the -800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst the top center of the page, that the proposed right-of-way, would bisect another -- another of what is now an existing stand of cohesive woodlands? A. Q. Yes. Mr. Werth, when a transmission

line right-of-way, runs through an intact or cohesive set of woodlands as we just reviewed, is that sometimes called fragmenting those woodlands? A. It would depend on the -- the

size of the stand of woodlands. Q. And so what are -- what are the

thresholds that -- that you would apply to that analysis? How big does a wetland have -how big does a woodland have to be, to be fragmented? A. I don't know that off the top of

Q. A. Q. A.

Can you give us a ballpark? I don't know. Okay. It's based on interior species. (Off-the-record discussion) 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst MR. HURST: Panel, if you could

turn for me, to section 4.1.2.3, of the application. And am I correct that this section of the application is describing some additional areas that would need to be cleared, in order to facilitate construction of the project that has been proposed in this case? A.L.J. STEIN: section are we in? MR. HURST: dash five, of Exhibit Four. A.L.J. STEIN: MS. HOWLAND: Thank you. Can you repeat the 4.1.2.3, of page four I'm sorry. What

MR. HURST:

Sure.

Can you play that back? MS. HOWLAND: Can you repeat the

MR. HURST:

She'll play it back

(The reporter complied with the

A.L.J. STEIN:

Thank you. 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst A. (Howland) This part of the

application identifies additional areas we may use for the project. It doesn't say that these are

areas we will clear for the project. BY MR. HURST: (Cont'g.) Q. All right. Is it possible

that -- well, withdrawn. At this point, the company has not identified the location of these areas, correct? A. Q. (Howland) That is correct.

And so at this point, the company

does not know whether they would require clearing, correct? A. Q. That is correct. Okay. And so for purposes of

attempting to engage in an environmental analysis of the company's proposal, isn't it fair to assume the worst case, Ms. Howland? A. Q. A. No. No? I wouldn't look to clear a I

forested area, just to have a staging area.

would look for a suitable area, such as an already 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst available construction yard, or something that might be in the area. Q. Sure. But at this point, you're

not able to rule out, Ms. Howland, and correct me if I'm wrong, the possibility that there may be no areas that are suitable, as you just described and that the company may need to clear one or more areas, as an off right-of-way construction, laydown or staging area? Can you rule that out as a possibility, categorically? A. I'm not going to say we're going

I'm just going to say -- I can't say

we're -- we will not clear a forested area, certainly. We are going to look for an appropriate area that we would have the least impact upon. Our first types of areas we look at

are for -- are perhaps building yards, other areas that might have been used for construction projects. Q. And so far in this process, have

you inventoried any such areas? A. No, we have not. 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst Q. Okay. Have you identified any

such areas in your application, for the commission? A. Q. No, we have not. And these construction, laydown

and staging areas, am I correct, that as described in section 4.1.2.3, they would be used, for example, for the delivery or storage of materials and equipment to be used in the construction of the project? A. Q. Yes. And, so, is it possible then,

that those areas would be used, for example, to hold transmission towers -- poles? A. We could possibly place the

utility poles in those staging areas, yes. Q. Okay. And is it possible then,

that conductors could be stored in those areas, for some period of time? A. in those areas. Q. Okay. And is it possible that Yes. Conductors could be stored

the vehicles used during construction might be stored in those areas for some period of time? A. Yes. The vehicles that are used 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst during construction, could be stored in those areas. Q. Okay. And is it possible that

fuel for use by the vehicles, to be used for construction, would be stored in those areas? A. Q. Yes, it is possible. Do those areas contain sheds or

structures of any kind, typically? A. We can typically bring in storage We can typically bring in

containment units.

construction trailers. Q. And does it -- the company

typically use those things, on what are described in the application, as construction, laydown and staging areas? A. We will find an area that we

could put a -- say a construction area, a work-staging area. Those are common practices in a

project of this size. Q. Okay. And -- and Ms. Howland, I'm trying

I -- I'm not trying to argue with you. to ask you a question.

The question that I'm asking you Whether it is typically the company's practice 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst to use construction trailers and temporary storage buildings, and construction laydown staging areas? A. Q. Yes. Okay. And so at this point,

because we don't know the location of -- or any proposed location for construction, laydown and staging areas, it is again, difficult to assess the potential environmental impacts of their use, is that correct? A. identified, yes. Q. Since we do not have an area I cannot say the impacts. Panel, if you could please turn It's page

to section 4.1.2.7 of the application. four dash eight.

Now, do you see where I'm

A. Q.

(Werth) (Howland)

Yes.

In particular, I'd ask you to

take a look at the last sentence in that section, which discusses during the stringing operation. you see that sentence? A. Q. (Werth) (Howland) Yes. Do

And -- and in -- in particular,

it appears to be -- and correct me if I'm wrong, 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst that what the company is saying in -- in that part of Section 4.1.2.7, is that there may be a requirement to keep the public out of the area, in which conductors are being strung, for -- as you say here, to ensure public safety and impede operation of other utility equipment, is that right? A. Q. A. (Werth) Okay. No. How is that incorrect?

It's stating that temporary guard

structures would be in place to protect the public on highways, hiking trails, canal-ways, that type of thing. Q. I see. There -- there would be

some stringing of conductors, would there not, at the Sigel-Kline Kill Conservation area? A. Q. Yes. And how would you -- that -- that

is a publicly-accessible recreation area, correct? A. Q. Correct. And how would you manage the Would they

public during the construction process?

be asked not to use the area during that period? A. During the stringing? 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst Q. Just -- just during the overall

clearing or construction of -- of circuit seven twenty-six. A. (Howland) Depending on what

activities are ongoing at the time, we would try to restrict access that would potentially put the public at risk, yes. Q. A. Okay. And -- and -- and --.

However, we would also try to be

accommodating during construction, so that we do not have to close off. There may be temporary closure, if it would put the public at risk. Q. Okay. And -- and -- and how do Do

you go about that kind of temporary closure? you just put up signs? Do you have guards?

How -- how do you keep the public off of public land? A. Q. It depends on the location. And so again, in this instance,

is it then possible that in this case, the public's use of the Sigel-Kline Kill recreation area, may be prohibited for some period of time? A. I don't believe we would prohibit 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst the use of it, but we may restrict activities within the immediate work area. Q. And Ms. Howland, does that

restriction typically extend beyond the company's right-of-way, or just the right-of-way? A. I don't believe we could restrict We could

activities outside of our right-of-way.

place warning signs, but again, it's going to be site specific and what activities are going, and what's necessary to protect the public. Q. Now, panel, if I could have you

turn to section 4.1.4 of the application, page four dash nine. Now, this is discussion -discussion -- discussing improvements to the Kline Kill substation, that would be required for the interconnection of closed circuit number seven twenty-six, correct? A. Q. (Werth) Okay. Correct. And do you see the

phrase, about three lines up from the bottom of that paragraph, where it says but the existing pad and fence line will not be modified? A. Yes. 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst Q. Okay. But in fact, there would

have to be some clearing, perhaps on the other side of the fence line, in order to allow circuit seven twenty-six to leave the substation, right? A. clearing there. Q. Okay. And -- and currently, if Yes. There's a potential for

we were out there today, looking at the Kline Kill substation, there is -- it's screened from there -from the adjacent roadway, by a stand of trees, isn't it? A. It's screened by an earthen berm,

with trees on top of it, yes. Q. Okay. And there are some rather

large tamarack trees there, weren't there, if I remember correctly? A. I don't know what species of I recall some pines, I

trees are out there. believe. Q.

Okay.

And -- and some of those

would generally need to be removed, in order to facilitate circuit seven twenty-six and the expansion of the right-of-way? A. Yes. I believe there's some 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst clearing there. Q. Now, you don't know as we sit

here today, how much clearing would be required, right? A. We -- we took into consideration,

the -- the right-of-way would need to be cleared there. Q. Okay. And at this point, you

don't know to what extent that clearing would affect visibility of the substation, from the adjacent roadway, is that right? A. There -- there would be

approximately twenty-five feet, of additional right-of-way cleared there. So, it would be fairly minimal, since there's already I believe, a hundred and fifty feet cleared there. And the earthen berm

blocks most of views of the substation as it is, without the trees. Q. Now, panel, if I could direct you

to Figure -- I'm not sure if I got that right. I want to say 4-3. Yeah. That is correct.

EXAMINATION BY A.L.J. STEIN: 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Examination - A.L.J. Stein Q. Could I just ask, Mr. Werth, is Is it planted

the -- could you describe the berm?

on the top, or it's just a pile of dirt, or how would you describe it? A. (Werth) Yeah. I mean, it's

basically just a pile of dirt, that has trees growing on the top of it, outside of the existing right-of-way. Q. I see. So, it -- because it's

raised and then has trees, it provides a visual shield -A. Q. Thank you. A. Yes. CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. HURST: (Cont'g.) Q. Okay. Mr. Werth, figure 4-3 Yes. -- for the berm stand? Okay.

and -- and the corresponding section of the application, that's section 4.2.5, page four dash sixteen. Now Figure 4-3 is a depiction of agricultural districts, in the area that's shown on the map, right? 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst A. Q. (Werth) Okay. Yes. And just so we're all

sort of clear, the hatched areas are actually contained within agricultural districts? A. Q. Yes. Okay. And focusing on the

east/west portion of circuit seven twenty-six, including the -- well, focusing on the east/west portion of circuit number seven twenty-six and the proposed extension of National Grid trunk fifteen, is it a fair observation on my part, to say that the majority of that portion of the proposed line is within Columbia County Agricultural District Number Ten? A. Yes. A large portion of the line

is within that district. Q. Okay. And if you could get it

in front of you, I believe it's Figure 4-6, which was, I believe, submitted in response to Information Request F, in the company's first deficiency letter response. A. Q. Okay. I need to get myself there, too. All right. In particular, Mr. 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst Werth, if you could just pull out in front of you, Figure 4-6. Now, is there somewhere in -- in the application, Mr. Werth, an overlay of Figure 4-3 and Figure 4-6? A. Q. No. Okay. I don't believe so. And why don't you tell us

for the record, what -- what is depicted on Figure 4-6? A. 4-6, is a mapping of prime farm

land, farm land of state-wide importance and prime farm land if drained, based off of the N.R. -N.R.C.S. soils. Q. Okay. And what is the

definition of -- for example, farm land of state-wide importance? A. I don't know off the top of my

Q.

Okay.

How about if I asked you

the same question for prime farm land? A. I don't know the exact

definition, but it's soil that is -- has the qualities to produce basically, good agricultural products if grown on it. 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst Q. Okay. And is it fair for me to

say that proposed circuit seven twenty-six and the National Grid number fifteen trunk line extensions, would impact farm lands of -- farm land of state-wide importance in several areas along the proposed route? A. Yes. There -- there is

significant amounts of prime farm land throughout the county. Q. Has the company calculated the

acreage of any one of those three categories, prime farm land, farm land of state-wide or prime farm land if drained, that would be impacted, by the proposed route, as it exists today? A. the application. Q. If it were there, Mr. Werth, I don't see that information in

would that be something that you would be asked to calculate or somebody under your? A. Q. Yes. Okay. Before laying out the

proposed route, you know, I see that Figure 4-6, came in as part of the deficiency letter response, so let me withdraw and rephrase that question so 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst let me withdraw and rephrase that question. Before filing the application for approval for the C.C.T.P., had the company conducted any inventory or assessment, of existing agricultural uses, along the proposed route? A. Q. Could you repeat that? Sure. Actually, withdrawn.

Did you know that the proposed route would impact that -- the -- the quantity of farm land of state-wide importance, as shown on Figure 4-6, when you first laid out the route? A. We had pulled the N.R.C.S. soil's

database and reviewed it as part of the data gathering that pre -- preceded routing for this project. Q. And did your review of that

database reveal to you, the amount of -- for example, farm land of state-wide importance that would be affected by the proposed route, as it's laid out? A. Yes. That's -- that's one of the

things that we look at during routing. Q. And before laying out the

proposed route, did you make any assessment as to 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Cross - Hurst whether the promotion or preservation of agriculture was something that the town of Ghent, or it's land owners, sought to accomplish or promote? A. Yes. We reviewed the -- the

Ghent -- the town of Ghent Comprehensive Plan and that is one of the goals that is laid out in it. Q. One of the goals is the

preservation of the rural agricultural character of the town of Ghent, right? A. Q. Correct. Before laying out the proposed

route, Mr. Werth, did you make any inquiries, as to any agricultural landowners along the route, as to their agricultural practices, the size or turning radiuses of their -- their equipment, those types of things? A. No. We had no contact with any

of the landowners along any of the routes. A.L.J. STEIN: interject a question here. EXAMINATION BY A.L.J. STEIN: Q. I see that you included -- I'm 800.523.7887 I'd like to

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Howland Panel - Examination - A.L.J. Stein You included figure 4-2, is the FEMA flood

plain overlay maps. And, I'm wondering if you know what -- what vintage FEMA flood plain maps, were used in preparing this analysis? What -- what --

what is the year of the FEMA flood plain map? I see it says issued August 15th, 2012, but I'm not sure if that refers to the FEMA maps, or to the consultant's --. A. (Werth) That date is the date

that the map was produced -Q. A. Yeah. -- and it's not -- we use the Q-3

data, which was the most current data that FEMA had available at the time. Q. A. Okay. So, it's an electronic G.I.S.

data that they continually update as they update their maps. So, I -- I can check what date the data was downloaded from the website. Q. Yeah. I'd like to see that

because I know that they have -- there's a generation of 1983 flood plane maps, which are 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Examination - A.L.J. Stein generally in common usage. They have only been

updated in -- within the last three months, in terms of their basic maps. And I'd be curious to

know which maps were used in the production of these exhibits. A. Q. A. Q. Okay. Thank you. I can check on that. Now next, I think I want you to

turn to Section 4.3.3 of the application. You there? A. Q. (Werth) Okay. Yeah. You see some reference

in -- in that paragraph to the field's sculpture park and Art OMI? A. Q. Yes. And Art OMI you're actually

referring to the OMI International Art Center, correct? A. Q. Yes. Okay. And before laying out the

proposed route, did you investigate activities at -- at Art OMI to see what they did there and -and how they did it? 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Examination - A.L.J. Stein A. Q. We did research Art OMI. Okay. Did you speak to the

principals of Art OMI to talk with them about the project before you laid it out? A. landowners. Q. So, you did sort of -- you know, No. We didn't speak to any

an internet search or something like that? A. We spoke to the town of Ghent

about Art OMI we also did check out their website, to determine what -- what activities take place there. Q. Did you conduct any kind of a

site visit before you laid out the route, to Art OMI? A. Q. We were at Art OMI. And did you walk the entire

property, or as much of the property as was publicly assessable at the time? A. property, no. Q. And based on what you know about We didn't walk the entire

Art OMI is it fair for me to say that the field sculpture part is just one area that makes up Art 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Examination - A.L.J. Stein

A. Q.

Yes. And there are other open-space

areas that Art -- Art OMI that have, for example, sculptures and art work present in those, as well, to, right. A. Ledig House, yes. Q. Okay. And there are other area There are sculptures near the

of Art OMI where the public -- you know, congregates and makes use of the resource, right? A.L.J. STEIN: Can we get a spelling of Ledig? MR. WERTH: Excuse me. Is it --?

L-E-D-I-G. Okay. Thank you.

A.L.J. STEIN: Go ahead. I'm sorry. (Cont'g.) Q. question.

BY MR. HURST:

And -- I'll just repeat the

And so, Mr. Werth, were you aware at the

time, that there were areas beyond the field sculpture park, that were -- that the public use at Art OMI? A. owned by Art OMI. 800.523.7887 We're aware of all the property

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Howland Panel - Examination - A.L.J. Stein Q. Okay. But you're not aware of

how the public uses that property? A. Like I said, we had conversations

with the officials of the town of Ghent, and they did speak about weddings taking place there and other type of gatherings, like that. Q. And I'm correct, am I not, that

there are -- are lands owned by Art OMI that are crossed by the proposed circuit seven twenty-six? A. Q. Yes. Okay. And isn't it also the

case, that proposed circuit seven twenty-six will be visible from certain areas, on Art OMI's property? A. I believe the photos did show

some visibility there. Q. Okay. And so, I guess that --

that's a visual sim question, so I won't get in to that with you-all. But is it fair for me to say, that mitigating the visual impact on -- or withdrawn. Is it fair for me to say, that by routing the line beyond the field sculpture park, 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Examination - A.L.J. Stein you may not have avoided all the adverse impacts to Art OMI? A. impacts? Q. All the impacts associated with Are you speaking just visual

the construction of the line, including visual. A. Well, no. It wouldn't avoid all

impacts on the property, because there would be clearing on the property and other things. Q. And in that same paragraph, Mr.

Werth, there's a sentence that's -- that is described in the Sigel-Kline Kill Recreation Area, that says existing transmission line will mitigate the visual impacts of the new line. Do you see that? A. Q. Yes. Okay. And -- and am I -- am I

correct in stating that the basis of that statement is a conclusion that viewers have become, sort of, you know, used to the -- the line that's there now? Circuit nine eighty-four, sort of accustomed to that line being there in the conservation area? A. Yes, there -- there's already

been an impact to the -- the visuals in that area, 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Examination - A.L.J. Stein because of the existing line, so it would only be an incremental -- small incremental increase. Q. bearings here. Okay. Let's see if I can get my

The Siegel-Kline Kill Recreation

Area is generally here, correct? A. Q. Correct. And the public access and kiosk,

are generally located here, correct, or in this general area? A. Q. I believe so. Okay. And alternative two,

routes the line on the east side of circuit nine eight four right-of-way, correct? A. Q. Correct. Okay. And so, for a user of the

Siegel-Kline Kill Recreation Area, who uses the customary entrance to get into that property, if they were to look to the west, they would actually see the new circuit first, right? A. Well, and if you're looking at

adjacent towers, you'll likely see both of them at the same time. But, yes, one will be closer to

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Howland Panel - Examination - A.L.J. Stein Q. Sure. And -- and let me -- let

me rephrase my question, as perhaps not fairly phrased. The new circuit twenty-six would the line in the foreground then? A. the viewer. Q. Now, if I could get you to turn Correct. It would be closer to

to Exhibit Six, of the application, please? A. Sure. A.L.J. STEIN: Well, let -- I'd

like to take just a housekeeping break for a minute -MR. HURST: Sure. -- if I can do

A.L.J. STEIN:

We can go off the record. (Off-the-record discussion) A.L.J. STEIN: I'll mark this as

Exhibit Forty-five and it is a one page document, Information Request and Response, P.G. dash ten. BY MR. HURST: (Cont'g.) Q. Okay. Panel, let's -- let's

just start with what's just been marked for 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Examination - A.L.J. Stein identification, the company's letter in response to P.G.-10, if you would. And I believe, Ms. Howland, this is -- this is your area. In P.G.-10, had asked the company to identify any other pending filings it had made in connection with this case, in sum and substance, is that correct? A. Q. (Howland) Okay. That's correct.

And is it fair for me to

state, the company's response is that as we sit here today, the company has made no filings, for example, with the United States Army Corps of Engineers? A. Q. That's correct. And in fact, the only federal

filing that's been made is the submission of a feasibility study to the Federal Aviation Administration? A. Q. That's correct. Okay. Ms. Howland, does the

company currently have pending an application for a water-quality certification from the commission? A. Yes. That will be part of the 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Examination - A.L.J. Stein process, when the certificate is issued. Q. Uh-huh. And yet the company has

no federal filings pending, as we sit here today, correct? A. There's nothing else filed -- can

you be specific of what you're looking for? Yes. We've asked for water

quality certifications, from the P.S.C. and we've asked for a certificate, but we have not filed any other applications, with any other federal agencies. Q. Okay. Isn't that -- well, we

may be getting to legal issues here, so Mr. Metcalfe, I am going to anticipate your objection. But, isn't it the case that a water quality certification is to be used in conjunction with those federal applications? MR. METCALFE: The witness -MR. HURST: Withdrawn. -- the --. I object.

MR. METCALFE: MR. HURST: BY MR. HURST: (Cont'g.) Q.

Withdrawn.

Panel, if you could turn, please, 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Examination - A.L.J. Stein to Exhibit Six, to the application, economic effects. A. Q. (Werth) Okay. Okay. In the second paragraph

there, you see where it says that the proposed Ghent switching station site is currently used as a an agricultural field, so development of this site, would reduce the amount of agricultural income. Do you see where I'm referring

A. Q.

Yes. Okay. And wouldn't that same

principle hold for anywhere along the line that impinged on a current agricultural, income-producing use? A. Q. A. From the line? Yes. I don't believe so. The -- the fields will still be able to be used for agricultural use. Q. Do you know that for sure Mr.

Werth, or is that something that depends on, for example, where the poles are ultimately placed, the size of the equipment that is used on a particular 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Examination - A.L.J. Stein farm, turning radiuses of that equipment and -- and those kinds of variables? A. There's likely to be some small

impact on the amount of land available for agricultural use, typically just at the base of the pole. We typically work with the landowners to site the structures where it will not impact their ability to farm. Q. Okay. And -- and again, is it

fair for me to state that because there's only been preliminary engineering done, that the company is unable to quantify that particular impact? A. We -- we don't know where all the

structures will be located at this point because the final design has not been done. Q. And, so, because you don't know

where all the structures will be located, you don't know how those structures might impinge on current agricultural uses, right? A. It -- it will depend on the

location of the structures and how the fields are being used. Q. Okay. And if you take a look at 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Examination - A.L.J. Stein the next sentence, in Section 6-1, when it begins, "NYSEG will justly compensate the owner of the land, for the reduction in agricultural income, through the purchase of the property," do you see that? A. Q. Yes. Do you know, Mr. Werth, is NYSEG

agreeing to compensate property owners for lost income? Is that what that sentence says? A. This is specific to the Ghent

switching station and the potential devaluation of the property, based on loss of ability to use the approximately two acres for agricultural use. Q. Okay. And just so am I clear,

and I'm not going to -- you know, ask you about fair market value and those kinds of things, because those are legal issues. I'm just trying to understand is that sentence, is that saying that NYSEG will justly compensate, is that something that is a principle specific to the switching station site, or is that a principle that would apply across the board, to any land that suffered a reduction in agricultural income? 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Examination - A.L.J. Stein A. Well, this sentence is specific But I believe

to the Ghent switching station.

NYSEG will justly compensate for easements as well. Q. Okay. But that's not what this It says reduction and

sentence says, right?

agricultural income and that's what I'm trying to figure out, if -- if that's something -- is it A, a mistake? Is it B, specific to the switching

station site or is it C, a general principle that will apply across the board, to any reduction in agricultural income, through the purchase of property used for the construction of the C.C.T.P.? A. Well, like I said, this sentence

is specific to the Ghent switching station. Q. Okay. Now, Exhibit Six, to the

application, had no discussion of the potential impact on property values in the affected areas, right? A. Q. (Howland) Okay. That is correct.

And -- and that

information was presented in response to information request L, in the deficiency response, is that correct? A. I would have to look at L, but 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Examination - A.L.J. Stein that sounds right. Q. Okay. Is anyone on the panel a

property appraiser? A. Q. No. Okay. Does anybody on the panel

hold a real estate brokerage license? A. Q. No. And who was it who prepared the

response to Information Request L? A. (Werth) (Howland) Can I see it? Do you have a Various people

particular item you're asking for?

worked on different -- it looks like three questions and various people worked on different questions. Q. Yeah. Actually, specifically

what I'm referring to is this -- the second -- the response on the second deficiency response, Ms. Howland, which is -- it looks like a response to number three. Page nine, second deficiency

response information request L. A. (Werth) The -- the letters for

review, I believe was done by NYSEG's real estate group. 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Examination - A.L.J. Stein (Howland) In what panel,

Q.

Okay.

But you all have been

designated to testify here, regarding Information Request L, right? A. Yes. (Werth) Q. Okay. Yes. Do you know if -- you

know, whoever the author was of -- of the response, had researched other P.S.C. Transmission Line Cases, for additional reports or studies, concerning the impact of transmission lines, on residential property values? A. (Howland) What is reported was

exactly as stated.

They found an article --

there's not a lot of articles or information on this. There was one article found, the effect of the electric transmission lines on property values, a literature review and that is what's stated here. literature. Q. And that research, I believe you The results of that

just testified, Ms. Howland, produced a single 800.523.7887

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Howland Panel - Examination - A.L.J. Stein article, correct? A. Q. Correct. There's one article.

And that article as set forth, in

Information Request L, sort of summarized or discussed a couple of other articles on the same topic, correct? A. (Werth) Correct. It was a

literature review. (Howland) Q. Okay. Right.

But the company's

response to Information Request L, represents its entire effort to respond to the request concerning the effect on property values, from the project, right? A. (Howland) MR. HURST: nothing further, Judge. Thank you very much. A.L.J. STEIN: Very good. Correct. Okay. I have

So, you've completed your questioning for this -you've completed you're questioning for this witness? MR. HURST: Correct. Yeah. 800.523.7887 Yes. For this panel,

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Case 12-T-0248 - 9-17-2013 A.L.J. STEIN: will adjourn for today. Okay. So, we

We'll pick up at

nine-thirty tomorrow morning. I will hand out, tomorrow morning, a revised schedule for the witnesses, but I have for this panel, the town of Ghent for fifteen minutes, Department of Environmental Conservation for sixty minutes, Agriculture and Markets for thirty minutes and staff for ninety minutes. And that's not counting some

confidential-area questioning, which will come at the end of the day. So, we'll pick up with this panel And then we'll -- Mr. Crosier, I

have twenty minutes for Protect Ghent and five minutes for staff. For Mr. Connaire, for Protect Ghent, forty-five minutes and then we'll do the confidential session at the end -- in executive session. And of course, there may be also redirect and re-cross, in addition to these time periods. So that looks eminently doable for

tomorrow and we'll pick it back up here at 800.523.7887

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Case 12-T-0248 - 9-17-2013 nine-thirty tomorrow morning. MR. LUSIGNAN: A.L.J. STEIN: MR. LUSIGNAN: just one request. A.L.J. STEIN: MR. LUSIGNAN: Yes. Yes. Your Honor? Yes. Before we adjourn,

When people bring

in hardcopies of exhibits, could they just make sure to bring in enough for all of the parties, unless there are particularly voluminous. eight is the number that is needed. A.L.J. STEIN: Very good. I think

People should definitely bring that in and that was part of the instruction for today. If it is

voluminous, I'd ask people to just bring in the cover sheet, so it can be identified. And we'll

assume that either the exhibits are already on the commission website, or they will be shortly, so everyone will have access to them. With that, we'll go off the record and thank you very much. (The hearing adjourned)

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Case 12-T-0248 - 9-17-2013 STATE OF NEW YORK I, Kirsten Lemire, do hereby certify that the foregoing was reported by me, in the cause, at the time and place, as stated in the caption hereto, at Page 52 hereof; that the foregoing typewritten transcription consisting of pages 52 through 340, is a true record of all proceedings had at the hearing. IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto subscribed my name, this the 24th day of September, 2013. ___________________ Kirsten Lemire, Reporter

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