Final minutes as approved by PCAC on 5-23-07 Minutes of the April 25, 2007 Meeting Of the Plumbing Code Advisory Committee The

meeting was called to order at 8:30 a.m., on April 25, 2007, at the Department of Labor and Industry, St. Paul, Minnesota. Present were: Thomas LeClair, Larry Justin, Kevin O’Laughlin, Tim McQuillan, Dan Hauck, John Parizek, Pat Ellingson, Loren Kohnen, Tim Urista, Brian Noma, Ira Funderburk, and Gretchen Sabel. Staff Present: Randy Ellingboe, Jim Peterson, Cathy Tran, and Wendy Legge Agenda for the meeting: 1. 2. 3. 4. Introductions Distribution of materials – email and US Mail Minutes of March 28, 2007, meeting Requests for Action a. Craig Froeter, Froet Industries b. Worley & Associates/Fourmation Sales, water distribution and water service materials, Adam Worley c. Cast Iron Soil Pipe Institute, Updating the latest editions of cast iron piping standards CISPI 301-05 and 310-04, Mr. Alan Thomas d. Grinder Pumps and Design of Sumps, Northern Water Works Supply, Mr. Jeff Mogush e. Vista Clear dental water treatment unit, Vista Research, Mr. Jim Chandler 5. DLI proposed rule revisions

After introductions, and discussion of the agenda, there was a legislative update concerning the proposed Plumbing Board. The PCAC will proceed with draft code revisions unless notified otherwise. Minutes of March 28, 2007, Meeting The Minutes of the March 28, 2007 meeting were reviewed and corrected reflecting the council’s voting record at the last meeting. Randy Ellingboe reminded members that votes should be recorded on the Request for Action checklist. Cathy Tran made corrections to the following section of the minutes: Draft rule language and SONARs from RFAs presented 11-28-06 4715.0520, G 4715.0510, G Plastic pipe 6H 4715.0520, J 4715.0530, J Ductile Iron 1L and 6M, with amendments


Final minutes as approved by PCAC on 5-23-07

A motion was made to approve the corrected minutes, and approved by unanimous vote.

Request for Action: New Material Standards

Craig Froeter, Froet Industries, Roof Drains Craig Froeter of Froet Industries, presented a Request for Action for an amendment to the Minnesota Plumbing Code to change 4715.2760 Roof and Deck Drains, Subpart 1 to allow a roof drain strainer of not less than 3 inches rather than the 4 inch strainer that is required in the current Code. IAPMO IGC 187 2005 Standard was presented to the committee members as an applicable standard for roof drains according to Minnesota Rule 4715.0640, as described below: Plumbing fixtures shall conform to the applicable commercial standards, where such standards exist. The committee members had questions about the installation of the drains on existing building re-roof, and also about the sump designs in regard to the consideration for design related to added roof loading from ponded water in the sump area. A motion was made to accept the rule change along with the IGC 187 2005. There were further discussions, and a friendly amendment was added to have the department look into acceptable language reflecting a reference to the Minnesota Building Code chapter 1305 or IBC section 1503. The vote on the main motion for the code changes was passed and the vote on the amendment was passed to have the staff draft language to reflect the requirements of the building code with the use of combination roof drain installations. Written recorded votes from members were 11 to accept motion with amendments and zero recorded vote to reject.

Worley and Associates/Fourmation Sales Adam Worley with Worley and Associates presented a Request for Action on Polyethylene/Aluminum/Polyethylene (PEX/AL/PEX) ASTM F 1281 and (PE/AL/PE) ASTM F 1282 Composite Pressure Pipe, for water distribution and water service. There was a question on the standards submitted to be amended into the Code ( ASTM F 1281 and F 1282). The submitter indicated that they were looking for only F 1282 PE/AL/PE. A question was also asked about the fitting standard that was attached to the Request for Action. It was the submitter’s intention that the language be part the request, and the request be amended to add the fitting standard ASTM F 1974 to the water distribution language of the code. This amendment passed on a unanimous voice vote.


Final minutes as approved by PCAC on 5-23-07 A motion was made to add ASTM F 1282 for 4715.0510 water service material, 4715.0520 water distribution material with ASTM F 1974 fittings. Written recorded votes from members were 10 to accept motion with amendments and zero recorded vote to reject. Department staff asked the presenters about testing data to meet the requirements of Minnesota Rule, subpart 3, Water Distribution as described below: (Cross-linked polyethylene (PEX) tubing systems together with approved fittings must be tested at 150 psi and 210 degrees Fahrenheit for a period of not less than 30 days by a qualified independent testing laboratory acceptable to the administrative authority.) The approval of PE/AL/PE ASTM F 1282 for water distribution material is pending on verification and the resting requirements of Minnesota Rule 4715,0420 subpart 3 submitted to the Department.

Jim Chandler, Vista Clear, Dental Water Treatment Jim Chandler presented a Request for Action to change code language for 4715.2110 that would allow an exception to the backflow preventer requirement in the Code for dental water treatment systems meeting the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) 510 (k) class I treatment device. The proposed request provides containment protection by installing a single reduced pressure zone back flow preventer (RPZ) to each dental water treatment systems which would supply treated water to serve multiple dental chairs, rather than the code required RPZ backflow preventer supplying water to each chair. There were discussions as to the level of hazard with current water systems, and the lack of standards for water treatment systems. A motion was made to have Vista Clear obtain an IGC or equivalent, and then come back for the Council’s review and failed without a second vote. Written recorded votes from members were 9 to reject the motion and zero to accept. Discussions were held relating to (1)violations of FDA regulations as it relates to medical devices and associated listings, (2)evidence of higher level of protection provided from this type of installation, and (3)reasonableness of requesting for an IGC for such equipment from the presenter. The motion was amended to have Department staff further investigate the FDA listing of such devices and report to the Council in relation to the Request for Action presented. This passed with a unanimous written recorded votes of 10 to accept and zero to reject.

Jeff Mogush, Northern Water Works Supply Jeff Mogush, with Northern Water Works Supply proposed changes to the Minnesota Plumbing Code for parts 4715.1010 Size of Cleanouts allowing cleanouts at distances further than currently


Final minutes as approved by PCAC on 5-23-07 allowed, and 4715.2440 Design of Sumps, to allow the use of grinder pumps and pressurized sewer systems. Gretchen Sabel with the PCA had stated questions and concerns in relation to grinder pumps used with onsite sewage treatment systems. Questions and concerns were relating to minimum and maximum velocities of the effluent and the fine size of particles of the effluent being pump to the septic tank and therefore, reducing settling time in the tank. It was recommended that the council move thru the RFA for Rule Change. A motion was made, and seconded to change 4715.1010 Size of Cleanout. Pressure Sewer systems, cleanout and flushing stations be installed at the terminal end of each main, every 1000 feet on straight runs of pipe, and whenever two or more mains come together and feed into another main. The motion was amended to have staff investigate reasons for the proposed locations of cleanouts for every 1000 feet of pipe. The motion passed with a recorded vote of 5 to accept 3 to reject, and one abstain. Another motion was made to allow the use of grinder pumps for pressurized sewer systems as written in the RFA for 4715.2440, Design of Sumps. It was noted that there is no definition in the code describing the pressure sewer system, distance between cleanouts, and there was a question as to approved material and installation methods for the proposed application. Most pressurized systems that have been proposed in such application has been high density polyethylene pipe (HDPE) which is not approved in the Code. It was recommended that Department staff review pressure sewer systems in relation to cleanouts in 4715.1010, minimum size of the piping, definitions, and materials, and make recommendations to the committee at a later date. The motion failed. The recorded vote was 4 to 4. The presenter was given the option of reviewing the questions and returning at a later date with a revised proposal. Discussion was held on the proposed revision to 4715.2440 subp2 discharge piping. The revised language would allow the use of a smaller pipe size than currently allowed. The proposed language would require a 2 feet per second (fps) velocity, and a pump and discharge pipe size of not less that1 ¼ inch for grinder pumps, rather than the required 2-inch minimum pump and discharge pipe size as currently required in the Code. Brad Erickson, Plan Reviewer of the DOLI Staff stated the Department’s concerns: 1. 4715.2440 does not prohibit a grinder pump. It does prohibit a discharge line of less than 2 inch when water closets are on the system. Mr. Erickson has found at least 2 manufactures that make grinder pumps with 2-inch pump and discharges for pressure systems. 2. Manufacture’s sizing guidelines tend to match the peak demand for the water distribution system, this is where sump sizing becomes critical as grinder pumps are typically sized for a much lower discharge rate. It is recommended that sizing of pumps and sumps be tied to the water use demands to prevent triggering of alarms and backups of the drainage system. Mr. Erickson also noted that the UPC requires a 20 gallons per minute (GPM) minimum rate that equals 2 fps, on a 2-inch discharge line.


Final minutes as approved by PCAC on 5-23-07 3. Currently there are 4 materials listed in the plumbing code for pressure sewer application. Those materials are rarely specified on systems that he has reviewed. Additional concerns were raised about striking language in 4515.2440 subp 3 on sizing of the sump and runtime of the pump. A motion was made and seconded that the presenter returned to the proponent for clarifications and revisions to the proposed changes. Motion passed with a recorded vote 5 to 0. The Request for Action for Cast Iron Soil Pipe Institute and updating of the standards has been postponed to future meetings. It was requested that the members maintain the associated mailings for future use. The Committee agreed that they would meet on May 23, 2007 from 8:30am to 3:00pm.

Meeting adjourned. Respectfully Submitted,

James H. Peterson, Secretary Plumbing Code Advisory Committee