CHANNELING AND THE SELF with JON KLIMO

JEFFREY MISHLOVE, Ph.D.: Hello and welcome. I'm Jeffrey Mishlove. Today we're going to examine the phenomenon of channeling -- what is it, why is it happening with such frequency today, and what does it say about human personality? With me is Professor Jon Klimo of the Rosebridge Institute, a graduate psychology program in Walnut Creek, California. Professor Klimo is also a former professor of education at Rutgers University, and he is the author of a book called Channeling, a thorough exploration of this field. Welcome, Jon. JON KLIMO: Thank you. MISHLOVE: It's a pleasure to have you here. Let's begin by defining what channeling is. KLIMO: Well, channeling is the most recent of a long series of terms that have been used throughout history and in all cultures for a phenomenon that really is not a recent fad or sociological anomaly. Channeling, as I define it, is receiving information from some other level of reality than the physical as we currently understand it, and coming from other than the individual self as current psychology would understand the notion of the self. And so that presupposes a multidimensional framework of reality in which the communication is taking place that goes beyond the physical, the three dimensions of space and the one of time as we understand it, and it also presupposes that the self is more permeable, the membrane separating self from other has more influx of information or information-carrying energy, than the ego, as we currently understand it. MISHLOVE: I suppose we ought to say at the outset, though, that there are some skeptical psychologists who would certainly maintain that this is all just a product of the mind or the subconscious, or some aspect of the mind as they would claim to understand it. KLIMO: Oh certainly, certainly. The predominant psychological explanation of channeling in mainstream thinking is that it is functional dissociation. It's very hard for the skeptic to look at the phenomenon and deem the practitioner of channeling as being pathological in any respect. Oh, there's a few cases perhaps

as some would see it. clear over to fully . this hysterical-conversion notion. that it is a functional dissociation. And so now that it looks like it's OK to do it as a social animal in the consensus reality. There are two basic schools of thought that tend to embrace the phenomenon in psychological circles. but in general they're quite functional. that it has to have out some way.whether it is happening in a kind of voice-thrown way.that a part of the channel splits off and functions autonomously. one can still make the case. becomes now able to get past the guarding of the gate in ways of taking on such a persona. So given that they're functional. more hydra-headed. so to speak. so to speak. I would say currently those who are looking seriously at channeling from the psychological and physiological community would side with the dissociation model -. MISHLOVE: Have you yourself had the experience of being a channel? KLIMO: In the book I set up a spectrum of kinds of channeling.like that. seemingly from beyond yourself. the psychologists. or whether or not you leave. even more functional than before they became involved with channeling. but it will come out in a way that gets past the guarding of the gate. running from full-trance channeling. I didn't know what was happening. Around the turn of the century William James and other researchers looked at this phenomenon. so that sort of clairaudiently you hear the voice or get the thought forms or the telepathic hit coming out of left field. they satisfy many of the criteria of Maslow's self-actualizing person. now today there seems to be more prevalence in the spreading activation in the nervous system of the species. vacate consciousness altogether. going into a trance or highly altered state. in the sense that there is a house divided against itself. or out to lunch. when one is out to lunch. there was a contending of forces between the repression school and dissociation school. and then your body. unbeknownst to the consciousness of that channel -. and you speak in an autotomic way and then come back: "Oh. as the skeptic often does. so to speak. even as the larger cosmological vehicle in which we're operating seems to be more like a house of many mansions. what was formerly repressed because it was too altruistic. which then presupposes a model of the psyche that is more plastical. to have permission to be able to come up with this bizarre material. as I have. too going off the scale of normal consensus-reality functioning of the individual. on the planet. more multifarious. what happened? Let me hear the tape. in many ways. the Freudian notion that one is repressing the material that comes out in a permission-given way. the left hand is not knowing what the right hand is doing. in other ways. your mouth is taken over. under camouflaged or alternative-persona ways." That is a function of dissociation. Each of us is a house of many mansions. so speak. The other comparable school of thought is dissociation. one finds they are quite functional. One is repression. And certainly to interview them. And along those lines. your vocal cords and so on.

as in other cultures. the Michaels and Ramthas -. Qualitatively.bizarre in the sense that in consensus reality it's seen as somewhat bizarre. if we didn't already have this notion that we identify ourselves with what must be a small part of who we really are.beings who claim that they emanate from other dimensions of time and space.on one end of the spectrum. this self-transcending influx of material where one seems to get out of the way and allow it to come through. except that it just feels different than selfgenerated material. the collective unconscious. or you as the channel identify it. where I can sort of pause and I can receive information. energies. intuition. talking to you. Why do you think it's happening right now? KLIMO: Well. guidance . an individual personality that either identifies itself. again. MISHLOVE: Today in our culture what we're seeing are ostensible spirit guides . this source tastes different. Jesus Christ who would come through psychologist Helen Schucman and dictate A Course in Miracles. On the spectrum of kinds of channeling. and I introduced the notion of open channeling. the Tom McPhersons. aware of the telephone. KLIMO: Yes. You asked me do I channel myself. conscious. and I have no way to prove that to you or to myself. phenomenologically. it's not me. MISHLOVE: It seems to me that in a sense we wouldn't even have the word channeling the way we're using it as coming from outside the self.seems to again make more permeable those normally opaque membranes between self and other. I used earlier the phrase permission-giving device.the Lazarises. creative artistic inspiration. It would seem that in the culture.the person under inspiration. Being a poet and a painter in my background also. but the source of that information or energy is not individuated. I put bizarre trance channeling -. that permission has been given -that one is born into a culture where there's permission given for altered-state activities. I was drawn toward the study of channeling in regard to the aspect of where does it come from.functional. and on the other end of the spectrum I put what I call open channeling. You'd have to say it's becoming a fad right now. in other cultures it's not necessarily -. some pantheistic ground of being. which is really just a change of terminology for earlier notions of creativity. for harvesting information. whether it comes from the personal unconscious. the universal mind. healing energies. it's not understood as having a persona. Open channeling simply means that one seems to receive information or energy from beyond oneself. suffering this breathing in from beyond oneself -. In that regard the artist throughout history -. and it seems to be coming from an individuated source other than myself. I know it's not self-generated.

and he said that maybe these spirits are real. the identity of the individual day to day. Ninety-nine percent of the channeling today.information from other levels of reality. And they often just get on the hot line. some people say it's sort of poor fortune cookies. whether it seems to be coming from another persona or welling up from within.one lets material come forth. it is not in the Freudian sense negative repressed material. this kind of material. he says. so that one at least unconsciously looks around and says. one has to do an analysis of the information. or other precincts of the self that fall outside of the normal demarcation known as personality." And it's really not too interesting except for people who are plugged into that love line. and the media spreads it also. or repressed material coming out -. how are you? I still love you.parts splitting off and coming out. supposedly. is information channeling. So really one can just analyze what was said and then see if one can make a case.are deceased human spirits. "I'm still here. there is some research like that. once they have a live channel to speak to living loved ones. but it feels different than oneself and one's own ground." and it's frustrating in that sense. it is in line with the perennial wisdom. MISHLOVE: You find it to be uplifting. the individual. it's "A rose is a rose is a rose.now. so to speak. could it only have come from that person? We've been involved with some research like that. MISHLOVE: Back in the nineteenth century. one could say that there's a spreading activation in the human family." KLIMO: Well.material coming across a threshold into local. to make a case irrefutably that the sources are who they say they are. looked at this kind of material. It's not energy channeling. In analyzing." And then either in this dissociated way -. Helmholtz. and it's sort of like almost tapping in on Ma Bell's phone lines and overhearing. Whatever is coming out of the larger self that is given permission to come out -. "This is going on. But in general one is thrown . really when you try to prove.it seems to be a notion of the unconscious -. individuated consciousness. KLIMO: When you do an analysis of it -. like the rape artist. in the global village now. maybe I can do it too. although it is time-old. physical mediumship as it was a lot in the last century. Now. the great physicist. "I don't know why they keep coming forth with such mindless drivel. in this recent resurgence of it.because it seems to be happening more in the culture now. love is peace is God.and I did a chapter on kinds of sources channeled -. Most of the channeled material that I'm familiar with is very beautiful. get on the horn. a good percentage of the sources of the information -. Sociologically speaking. bandied around by the media and so on -. the noble savage that wants to have the pleasure principle run rampant.

of the individual channel? Is it something that they could no way know? And then the parapsychologist can say. I think personally I might be convinced. well. but the information quotient. trying to say that it's for sure who they are -MISHLOVE: So-called space brothers. because one can listen to the material and think. so to speak. heart-chakra kinds of channeled material before it all starts to sound the same -. or that any of us will. where they say. doesn't feed you if you're more analytically oriented. coupled with.the diehards are still going to say. you look in manuscripts that are yellowed in that museum. as I sometimes am. or his one missing theory -.space brothers. And so there is a large -.not that it isn't true. yes. even though it is very interesting information.my eyes twinkle a little bit. well. sort of the protein level of the density of the information. your current world view and science is a limit case. I'm particularly interested in the kinds of channeled material that is technical in nature. KLIMO: -. "Yeah. isn't beautiful. and you find it -. locked onto." MISHLOVE: But you know. does that transcend the boundaries. necessarily -. but the channel went into an altered state. and Einstein is saying where the will was left. sympathetically resonantly entrained with. that is . that Einstein survived physical death. or it's supposed to the spirit of Einstein. it is going through transition. KLIMO: Well. channeling is just a cover for a generalized ESP. if for example someone through a channel were to come up with theoretical scientific work that only an Einstein could have done. it's locked in a local paradigm. and that the channel goes into an altered state and is able to go out on the ethers and cannibalize some other embodied brain-minds. as well as deceased human scientists. And I wonder if there's anything of that sort.you know. One can only read so much of the. but it doesn't necessarily prove. got resonant. KLIMO: At this juncture.not the kind of things that are being bandied around in the media. something we're all capable of.but there's a goodly percentage of channeled material from extraterrestrials -. MISHLOVE: So that would suggest that it's really impossible to prove that the so-called entities really are distinct. this holographic implicate-order data base of information somewhere that is floating there. such material. the resources. look. isn't good. that is quite detailed in nature. because even if it sounds like something that only your great-grandmother could have said.back pretty much on faith. and cook it up together in their own creative unconscious.

I have no question that it's useful in some instances. and I know several examples.fascinating material that is analytical. I tell you.after he'd already written them. do I channel myself. of the individual human being -. were channeled through him. MISHLOVE: Well. because I am ready with whole bookshelves worth of channeled material from small press situations. "My God. technical. from members of the community who'd be open to it. that I would love to have a critique and feedback on. will spearhead that kind of research. KLIMO: Yes. there's more of an expanding of the notion of the self. and I think what we need to home in on now is verifiability of the sources being who they say they are. but it seems to be a self-transcending influx of information. . at least if we can harvest it in this larger intuitive. this is significant from a scientific point of view!"? KLIMO: That research is the next step. they just took it down in automatic writing and published it for their loved ones -. through Kevin Ryerson?" It's almost like prime-time domain. you asked me earlier. where there's no identifiable individual source. Ralph Waldo Emerson claims that the essays which he wrote. detailed.most of the writers I've talked to. For example. scientific in nature. being the first serious study of this phenomenon. often one-book things. Knight and her radiant horses? What do you think of that Tom McPherson on the TV show. and essentially. this house of many mansions having more cross talk across its vestibules and its locus of consciousness. Well. "What do you think of J.Z. I hope that my book. at some time or other. I do. And until that happens we're left with people saying. which are examples of some of the finest in the English language. a relative. this permeability increasing now. Irrespective of being able to ultimately prove the locus of the source of it. There's more bleed-through or cross talk interdimensionally. Public speakers. KLIMO: Virtually none. and many of us do -. are there any instances of this kind of information in which qualified scientists have looked at it and said. engineering-wise. MISHLOVE: But to date that hasn't happened. where the person's deceased. this bleedthrough. creative influx of material these days. the most recent resurgence of it. He would go into a trance and say that later on he read these essays for the first time with great interest -. and I qualified it with open channeling.and that's what channeling really is.why channeling is taking place. is it useful? Can we apply it on this plane of existence? MISHLOVE: For me. the usefulness quotient of the material.

there's plant beings. larger cognition -. or schizophrenia. there's extraterrestrials. KLIMO: Yes. And then it happens very often. I've got a whole chapter on that.just suppose for the time being that there's a whole menagerie of them.I believe his wife was a channel. Just given again as a heuristic device. said very often she gets up.you pull back the magic fairy circle one has supposedly drawn around Jon Klimo or Jeffrey Mishlove. so that with a willing suspension of that belief. by fellow sentient beings with intentionality and capacity to communicate -. all of the images which he used in his poetry.like Marilyn Ferguson.that this would make them somehow special or different. relevant to people. It is not fair to us. who looked at cases of people involved in channeling. to support their ego -. KLIMO: Which is what I think the healthy side of this is. I'd rather see it as an extension of intuition. that that is the demarcation. just because we're incarnate spirits or consciousnesses embodied within this demarcation to our local phenomenology of it. when he wrote his poetry -. whom I interviewed. one allows. and many of her fellow speakers who are going around talking on these topics don't know where the next line is coming from -. KLIMO: Yes. there's angels. but then using it in a way sometimes to support their cult. one operates as if it were the case that one could access more than one has personally experienced in the past. And there's a sort of interesting transpersonal notion of ego here too. creative inspiration. MISHLOVE: And yet it seems so complicated. just for the time being. that we should demote ourselves . that selftranscending accessing of larger mind. And let's say that's the case.they sort of get out of the way. larger energy. And there seem to be -. there's dead human beings. MISHLOVE: William Butler Yeats. telepathic information. MISHLOVE: Gnomes and elves and fairies. coming up often with accurate. from a so-called spirit guide. that like a suggestology or an auto-hypnosis. Rather than identify it as some kind of pathology like multiple-personality disorder. just say for the time being there may be other levels of reality that are populated by colleagues. and she would give him in trance.I don't know if I'd go so far as to call it psychopathology. or that it is some kind of bizarre thing that you are only going to see on a TV set and not in your next-door neighbor or a member of the family or in yourself. make a little prayer that it be good material. the sociologist who wrote When Prophecy Fails. but ego traps involved here. perhaps psychic. I think we ought to point out the classic study of Leon Festinger. and let it come forth.

and what I would suggest to anybody in their own consumer's guide to channeling. saying eventually you should be your own channel. And so basically the rule of thumb I find in the best of the channeled material. well. the latest guru. I'm basically a creative artist myself." The "it" is to go within. whether I'm incarnate or discarnate. of our own thoughts? What's your intuition there? KLIMO: Well. be they incarnate or discarnate. physics. extradimensional. projections of our imagination. after two long chapters. I feel I'm channeling my answer here. here. or are they. is by this gate through oneself -.not out there on the latest tape or guru or weekend or workshop or book. internal knowing. and look out there for the latest channel on the block. one can go out on the planes of what is often called other levels of reality and have commerce there and harvest material from there.cognitive and experimental psychology. whatever you want to call it -. and that you have the same relationship with the universal ground that I have. larger possibilities. especially by those who profess to know more about the occult and esoteric end of looking at channeling -. the two longest chapters in my book. in this kind of toroidal. or that they have gotten past all ego that there is to get past. and the whole zoology of spirit forms. I know I'm trying to be objective. whether I'm a channel or a channel source. or just because somebody's a discarnate. larger ground of being. you earlier hypothesized. They may get off on having incarnate followers. MISHLOVE: Well. as some psychologists would simply say. but damn it. physiology. doesn't necesarily mean they have infinite wisdom. like lucid dreaming or out-of-body experience or near-death experience or PK and so on -. orient with our backs turned to our own kingdom within. both the channels and their sources. is that one look for the message which is usually in the best of the channeled material. your own connection with larger mind. And there often one is warned. just the way an embodied personality could get off on having fellow incarnate followers. Ultimately one wants to ask. our own resources.that just because somebody's dead. and I feel I'm on a roll. But the locus of it. Let me at least get . the secret of it.that you can tap into if you give yourself permission to do it and go within in. I can't keep it out any longer.I said. I know I'm trying to be neutral. about different speculations -. extra-dimensional. by the inner. I've got to have my speculation. the kingdom lies within. clinical psychology. medical models. And the best of that material that currently is out there is saying. our own possibilities.and look out there. can't you get "it. including scientific lenses looking at it -.and I've looked a wide variety. holographic data pool. trying to take it very seriously as one would look at any anomaly. paraphysics. let's suppose there are these realms of fairies and goblins and angels and elemental creatures. implicate order. It's through the eye of the needle. do they really exist or not. and so on -looking at the phenomena under all those different lenses. that they are omniscient.

you construe meaning that way -. I take that model and expand it cosmologically. and a mental or a kind of personality signature that you could give projective testing to and it would test as different than Jeffrey Mishlove.that those supposedly channeled sources. And what it was. We are essentially that antithetical state. Hegel -. imagine that the whole universe has done that.we are sub or alter personalities of some subsuming Personality. given that the entities -. and all the different states of energy and matter are.that we're multi-mind. KLIMO: Yes. what's the difficulty in making clucking sounds in the mouth to communicate with each . we were all at one time connected intimately to the oneness of things. you experience things. are alter or subpersonalities in an otherwise functional being.it in the book there somewhere. What's the problem with the planet.whether they're clairaudiently heard. out of phase with itself. for example. Now. as Robert Ornstein says in his latest book. And this is what holds the most water for me. becomes differentiated. there is a bodily subset that goes with it. I don't know -. neural nets that fire that may have a localization that when you return to that specific state and come out of that. Imagine a big-bang theory in which everything explodes out from some unity or thesis state or undifferentiated state. which I am as I handled it in the book. it goes from symmetrical into nonsymmetrical. or subcomponents. as the physical scientist says that's what all particulate matter is. imagine that psychically or consciously. that seem to believe psychosomatically. or if you want to look at a nonpathological version. that we -. like symmetry breaking. according to this mainstream view.said that everything is basically absolute spirit.let's just deal with beings on this planet now -. was that one of the chief speculations of what is going on in channeling from mainstream psychology is a kind of multiple personality. now. Now. MISHLOVE: We have many ego states. and we sort of spread out like drops of ink that have been thrown against the wall. My favorite philosopher. like the physicists would say. a co-consciousness -.you can have asthmatic responses or all kinds of physiological correlates that go with it. At least we have Jon Klimo's version along with all these discarnate and incarnate versions too. KLIMO: Yes. and then it broke up from this thesis state of absolute spirit into antithetical state. with a capital P.maybe I'm an incarnation of him. or one gets out of the way as a trance channel and one has them speak through one -. Now. We have many subminds. both mentally and physically. MISHLOVE: In other words. as a creative person and as a speculative interdisciplinarian. clairvoyantly seen.

so to speak. Mary houses you. then why not say within the godhead.we are doing it -. absolute spirit or mind.the actualizing of probabilities. many channeled sources say. within the house of many mansions. KLIMO: Precisely. is we are an antithesis. MISHLOVE: You mean we might be considered like cells of a larger organism. and we've got to have you integrated back into Mary so Mary can be a functioning member of society.again. We are dissociated from each other.and we have a subsuming parent psyche. So we are all sub or alter personalities. we're going to occasionally hear from those precincts too. we are not in each other's skin and psyche. and so on. we don't kind of get bumped off target and spontaneously get sent into an altered state.you will get other channels. And as we sort of increase the frequency on the planet. KLIMO: Precisely. and they're interrogating one of these sub or alter personalities. We are not one. if you can embrace for the moment that we are dissociated parts of a larger group mind. And to the degree to which you can alter consciousness. just like in a multiple-personality individual -. as a physicist would say -. tuning into only one wave band. we are all alter personalities of. a spreading contagion. pathology aside -. I think there's a spreading activation in the human family now. you will get other realized worlds.it's not so far-fetched that other sub or alter personalities that are also experiencing dissociation from each other within the singular unifying godhead we are all shards of. MISHLOVE: Unaware of the fact that we really are one organism. Now. which has its extended body and its extended mind. in nonphysical states or subtle-energy or higher-energy states or higher-frequency states? And if we can talk to each other -. separated from itself. both physically and mentally and egowise. then there is a higher . universal. split apart. I think the whole species on this planet is in a dissociated state.other. why can't there be sub or alter personalities elsewhere in the house. and trying to give it the cognition that you came from Mary here. collapsing the wave function. and telepathically in bed together. from a kind of conjoint. not be split apart and against herself. But because we are sort of locked into a consensus reality and all the physiological and psychological correlates that attend to it. within this cosmological. leave the state-specific state that locks you into only one construal of reality. When a therapist is working with a multiplepersonality-disorder person. simultaneous kind of telepathic quality of atoneness in spite of the skulls and the separations. a benign contagion. only one explicate order out of the frequency domains that are possible to tune from -. pantheistic. as often new agers say. to have more permeability of membrane between self and other. we not in identity condition.

personal unconscious.the polymorphous perverse.com/transcripts/klimo. that there's some overlap there.htm . we'll have to continue. the semantical. many subpersonalities. begins to pool. that we really are the same -. The mythological fundamentalist. KLIMO: Yes. KLIMO: Thank you for having me. psychically or spiritually or mentalistically. eventually you get past personality. the thought forms are coextensive on the same level of reality. essentially. Thank you very much for being with me. Well. it's going to be this way. MISHLOVE: It seems to suggest then. John. KLIMO: I just got going. that underneath the surface features of the skin-encapsulated beings that we are. if you go down.that if we go deep inside of you in all the many. so to speak. they coin the term the mythological fundamentalist.williamjames. even collective unconscious. MISHLOVE: Well. down. MISHLOVE: Jon Klimo. and deep inside of me. END Fuente: http://www.probability of getting cooked together -. we're out of time. down in this archaeological dig. maybe complete overlap. according to Jung and Kerenyi. under the covers together of our shared knowledge. down. In a book by Jung and Kerenyi. Essays On a Science of Mythology. you get down where the carbon in me is essentially identical or coextensive on the same stratum of being as the carbon in you.

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