866 299-5127

Veritext National Deposition & Litigation Services
1 MASTER INDEX
2
WEDNESDAY, MAY 1, 2013
3
4 CHRONOLOGICAL AND ALPHABETICAL INDEX OF WITNESSES
5 PLAINTIFF WITNESS DIRECT CROSS REDIRECT RECROSS
6 ORLANDO MARTINEZ
7 BY MR. PANISH 2445
8
9 EXHIBITS
10 EXHIBIT DESCRIPTION IDENTIFICATION EVIDENCE
11 5-1335 DOCUMENT 2453 2453
12 5-1356 DOCUMENT 2454 2454
13 30 DOCUMENT 2481 2481
14 455 DOCUMENT 2479 2479
15 459 DOCUMENT 2477 2477
16 462-482 DOCUMENT 2461 2461
17 462-4905 DOCUMENT 2461 2461
18 462-794 DOCUMENT 2462 2462
19 462-8036 DOCUMENT 2466 2466
20 462-8062 DOCUMENT 2466 2466
21 500 VARIOUS PHOTOGRAPHS 2445 2445
22 500-11 PHOTOGRAPH 2444 2444
23
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(THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD
IN OPEN COURT, IN THE PRESENCE OF THE
JURORS:)
THE COURT: KATHERINE JACKSON VERSUS A.E.G. LIVE,
BC445597.
GOOD MORNING, EVERYBODY. COUNSEL PLEASE
MAKE YOUR APPEARANCES.
MR. PANISH: YES. GOOD MORNING. BRIAN PANISH
FOR THE PLAINTIFFS.
MR. BOYLE: GOOD MORNING, YOUR HONOR.
KEVIN BOYLE FOR THE PLAINTIFFS.
MR. KOSKOFF: GOOD MORNING, YOUR HONOR.
MICHAEL KOSKOFF FOR THE PLAINTIFFS.
MS. BINA: GOOD MORNING, YOUR HONOR.
JESSICA STEBBINS BINA FROM O'MELVENY & MYERS FOR THE
DEFENDANTS.
MR. PUTNAM: GOOD MORNING, YOUR HONOR.
MARVIN PUTNAM FOR THE DEFENDANTS.

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1 MS. CAHAN: GOOD MORNING, YOUR HONOR.
2 KATHRYN CAHAN FOR THE DEFENDANTS.
3 THE COURT: THANK YOU. YOU MAY BE SEATED.
4 AND WE HAVE DETECTIVE MARTINEZ ON THE
5 WITNESS STAND AND HE WILL CONTINUE UNDER DIRECT
6 EXAMINATION.
7 YOU'RE STILL UNDER OATH.
8 THE WITNESS: YES, YOUR HONOR.
9
10 DIRECT EXAMINATION
11 BY MR. PANISH:
12 Q GOOD MORNING, DETECTIVE.
13 A GOOD MORNING.
14 MR. PANISH: WHAT I'D LIKE TO DO FIRST IS MAKE
15 SURE THAT WE IDENTIFY THE SPECIFIC EXHIBITS AND MOVE
16 THOSE INTO EVIDENCE. SO LET'S START OFF WITH THE
17 PHOTOGRAPHS.
18 NONE OF THOSE ARE IN EVIDENCE YET, RIGHT,
19 YOUR HONOR?
20 THE COURT: I THINK SOME OF THEM ARE.
21 MR. PANISH: OKAY. WELL, LET'S JUST RUN THROUGH
22 THEM REAL QUICK. 500, DASH, 11, THE MAILBOX PICTURE.
23 WE DON'T HAVE TO SHOW IT. I WOULD MOVE THAT INTO
24 EVIDENCE. IT'S A POLICE PHOTOGRAPH.
25 THE COURT: OKAY. RECEIVED.
26 ///
27 ///
28 ///

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1 (MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION AND
2 RECEIVED INTO EVIDENCE,
3 EXHIBIT 500-11; PHOTOGRAPH.)
4
5 THE COURT: IS THERE ANY OBJECTION TO ALL THE
6 PHOTOS?
7 MR. PUTNAM: NO, YOUR HONOR.
8 MR. PANISH: I'LL READ THEM OFF AND THEY'LL ALL
9 BE IN.
10 500, DASH, 329; 500, DASH, 11; 500, DASH,
11 192; 500 HUNDRED, DASH, 193; 500, DASH, 195; 500, DASH,
12 21; 500, DASH, 91; 500, DASH, 92; DASH 95; 500, DASH,
13 39; 500, DASH, 44; 500, DASH, 56; 500, DASH, 276; 500,
14 DASH, 343; 500, DASH, 344; 500, DASH, 352; 500, DASH,
15 356; 500, DASH, 358; 500, DASH, 360; 500, DASH, 362;
16 500, DASH, 381; 500, DASH, 383; 500, DASH, 384; 500,
17 DASH, 390; 500, DASH, 337; 500, DASH, 86; 500, DASH,
18 310; 500, DASH, 311; 500, DASH, 314; 500, DASH, 317;
19 500, DASH, 324; 500, DASH, 326; 500, DASH, 96; 500 --
20 EXCUSE ME. 500-326. 500-96 IS THE ISSUE WITH THE
21 PERSONAL CELL PHONE WITH MR. PHILLIPS, AND WE'LL DEAL
22 WITH THAT APPROPRIATELY.
23 THE COURT: OKAY.
24 MR. PANISH: 500, DASH, 327; 500, DASH, 328.
25 OKAY.
26 ///
27 ///
28 ///

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1 (MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION AND
2 RECEIVED INTO EVIDENCE, EXHIBITS
3 500-329, 500-11, 500-192, 500-193,
4 500-195, 500-21, 500-91, 500-92,
5 500-95, 500-39, 500-44, 500-56,
6 500-276, 500-343, 500-344, 500-352,
7 500-356, 500-358, 500-360, 500-362,
8 500-381, 500-383, 500-384, 500-390,
9 500-337, 500-86, 500-310, 500-311,
10 500-314, 500-317, 500-324, 500-326,
11 500-327, 500-328, PHOTOGRAPHS.)
12
13 MR. PANISH: THEN WE'RE ON TO THE DOCUMENTS.
14 500 -- EXCUSE ME -- 5, DASH, 1334.
15 MR. PUTNAM: WHAT ARE THOSE, YOUR HONOR?
16 MR. PANISH: YOU WANT ME TO SHOW IT?
17 MR. PUTNAM: JUST LET US KNOW WHAT THEY ARE.
18 MS. BINA: WE'D STILL LIKE A PAPER COPY OF THE
19 DOCUMENTS.
20 THE COURT: OKAY. WE'RE ON EXHIBIT 5 --
21 MR. PANISH: THIS IS FILED WITH THE COURT IN
22 NEVADA.
23 MS. BINA: WHAT WAS THE NUMBER AGAIN?
24 MR. PANISH: 5, DASH, 1334.
25 MS. BINA: YOUR HONOR, I DON'T THINK A FULL
26 FOUNDATION HAS BEEN LAID WITH THIS WITNESS AS TO WHAT
27 THOSE DOCUMENTS ARE.
28 MR. PANISH: LET'S GO TO 5, DASH, 13- --

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1 THE COURT: ARE YOU GOING TO USE IT IN HIS
2 TESTIMONY?
3 MR. PANISH: YES. I WANT TO LAY THE FOUNDATION
4 AND GET IT IN. THEY'RE OBJECTING.
5 THE COURT: HE'S THE ONLY WITNESS THAT CAN DO IT.
6 ALL RIGHT.
7 MR. PANISH: OKAY. DETECTIVE MARTINEZ, LET'S GO
8 BACK ALL THE WAY -- THIS DOCUMENT HERE, 500, DASH, 1334
9 THROUGH 1425, I'M GOING TO COME UP, I'M GOING TO SHOW
10 YOU THE ENTIRE DOCUMENT.
11 Q WAS THIS A DOCUMENT THAT WAS ATTAINED AS
12 PART OF YOUR INVESTIGATION INTO THE FINANCIAL CONDITION
13 OF DR. MURRAY?
14 A YES, IT WAS.
15 Q DOES THAT DOCUMENT INCLUDE DOCUMENTS FILED
16 WITH THE COURT, CLARK COUNTY, STATE OF NEVADA?
17 A IT DOES.
18 Q DID YOU GET ALL OF THOSE DOCUMENTS IN THE
19 COURSE OF YOUR INVESTIGATION ON BEHALF OF THE
20 LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT?
21 A I DID.
22 Q DID SOME OF THOSE DOCUMENTS COME DIRECTLY
23 FROM THE COURT IN THE STATE OF NEVADA?
24 A SOME FROM THE COURT, SOME FROM STEWART
25 TITLE.
26 Q OKAY. DID YOU SERVE A SUBPOENA ON THE
27 CUSTODIAN OF RECORDS OF STEWART TITLE?
28 A YES, A GRAND JURY SUBPOENA.

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1 Q AND DID THE GRAND JURY RECEIVE FROM THE
2 CUSTODIAN OF RECORDS THE BUSINESS KEPT IN THE ORDINARY
3 COURSE OF STEWART TITLE?
4 A YES.
5 Q AND WERE THOSE DOCUMENTS ALLOWED ADMISSIBLE
6 BASED ON THE FOUNDATION OF THE DECLARATION OF THE
7 CUSTODIAN OF RECORDS?
8 WITHDRAW THAT.
9 THOSE ARE THE DOCUMENTS THAT WERE KEPT BY
10 STEWART TITLE RELATING TO DR. MURRAY?
11 A YES.
12 Q AND THE EVIDENCE IS --
13 THE COURT: DID YOU WANT TO MAKE AN OBJECTION?
14 MS. BINA: YES, YOUR HONOR.
15 I'D OBJECT TO VAGUE AS "DOCUMENTS KEPT BY
16 STEWART TITLE RELATING TO DR. MURRAY." I DON'T KNOW
17 WHAT THESE DOCUMENTS ARE.
18 THE COURT: WELL, HE LACKS FOUNDATION. HE'S NOT
19 THE CUSTODIAN, SO HE CAN'T TESTIFY IF IT'S KEPT IN THE
20 ORDINARY COURSE OF BUSINESS. ONLY THE CUSTODIAN CAN DO
21 THAT.
22 WHY DON'T WE TABLE THIS FOR NOW AND TALK
23 ABOUT IT LATER, BECAUSE IT LOOKS LIKE SOME OF THEM ARE
24 PUBLIC DOCUMENTS, SOME ARE NOT, AND SO IT'S A MIXED
25 BAG. LET'S PUT THIS ONE ASIDE.
26 MR. PANISH: BUT MANY OF THESE ARE PUBLIC
27 DOCUMENTS IN THIS DOCUMENT.
28 THE COURT: CORRECT. AND YOU MAY BE RIGHT, BUT

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1 WE CAN'T SIFT THROUGH THAT AT THE MOMENT.
2 MR. PANISH: WELL, I CAN. I'LL DO IT RIGHT
3 NOW.
4 THE COURT: I DON'T WANT TO WASTE THAT TIME.
5 LET'S MOVE ON.
6 Q DID YOU REVIEW THESE DOCUMENTS AS PART OF
7 THE OPINIONS YOU RENDERED AS TO THE FINANCIAL MOTIVE OF
8 DR. MURRAY?
9 A YES.
10 Q DID YOU RELY ON THEM IN FORMULATING YOUR
11 OPINION THAT DR. MURRAY WAS IN DESPERATE FINANCIAL
12 STRAITS?
13 A THEY WERE PART AND PARCEL OF MY OPINION.
14 Q WERE THEY KEPT IN YOUR ORDINARY COURSE OF
15 BUSINESS FOR THE LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT?
16 MS. BINA: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR, AS TO "KEPT IN
17 THE ORDINARY COURSE OF BUSINESS." HE SAID HE
18 SUBPOENAED THESE RECORDS AS PART OF HIS INVESTIGATION
19 OF DR. MURRAY. THE EVIDENCE OF DR. MURRAY'S FINANCIAL
20 CONDITION --
21 MR. PANISH: EXCUSE ME, YOUR HONOR. COULD WE
22 HAVE A LEGAL OBJECTION, NOT A SPEAKING OBJECTION?
23 THE COURT: OVERRULED.
24 MS. BINA: YOUR HONOR, THE OBJECTION IS THAT IT
25 LACKS FOUNDATION. HE STILL CAN'T TESTIFY AS TO WHETHER
26 THE BUSINESS RECORDS ARE, IN FACT, THE BUSINESS RECORDS
27 OF STEWART TITLE.
28 THE COURT: OKAY. SUSTAINED.

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1 MR. PANISH: YOUR HONOR, COULD WE --
2 THE COURT: HE RELIED ON THEM FOR HIS OPINION.
3 THAT'S FINE.
4 MR. PANISH: CAN WE HAVE LEGAL OBJECTIONS AND NOT
5 SPEAKING OBJECTIONS?
6 THE COURT: OVERRULED. KEEP GOING.
7 MR. PANISH: OKAY.
8 Q THOSE DOCUMENTS CONTAIN DOCUMENTS FILED
9 WITH THE COURT IN NEVADA PLACING LIENS ON THE PROPERTY
10 OF DR. MURRAY; IS THAT CORRECT?
11 A YES.
12 Q ARE THEY CONTAINED WITHIN THAT DOCUMENT?
13 A YES.
14 Q OKAY. LET'S LOOK AT THEM.
15 I WANT YOU TO JUST GO THROUGH IT AND FIND
16 THOSE FOR US.
17 MS. BINA: AND I'M SORRY TO OBJECT AGAIN, YOUR
18 HONOR. THE DOCUMENTS THAT PLAINTIFFS GAVE US AREN'T IN
19 ORDER, SO I'M HAVING A LITTLE TROUBLE --
20 THE COURT: WHY DON'T YOU BOTH GO UP TO THE
21 WITNESS AND YOU CAN SEE WHAT HE'S PULLING OUT.
22 MR. PANISH: WELL, HE CAN JUST REFER TO THE
23 EXHIBIT NUMBER. THERE'S A PAGE EXHIBIT NUMBER ON EVERY
24 EXHIBIT, JUST LIKE WAS ON THE EXHIBIT LIST.
25 THE COURT: ARE THEY PAGINATED AT THE BOTTOM,
26 EACH ONE?
27 MR. PANISH: YES, THEY ARE, JUST LIKE THE EXHIBIT
28 LIST THAT WAS GIVEN TO COUNSEL AT THE BEGINNING OF

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1 TRIAL, AND THEY DIDN'T WANT THE PAPER COPIES. NOW
2 WE'VE GIVEN THEM THE PAPER COPIES.
3 MS. BINA: AGAIN, YOUR HONOR, I'M NOT COMPLAINING
4 ABOUT THE PAPER COPIES; BUT OURS GOES FROM EXHIBIT 5,
5 DASH, 40 TO EXHIBIT 5, DASH, 1334. THE PAPER COPY I
6 WAS JUST HANDED IS NOT CONSECUTIVELY PAGINATED. SO I
7 APOLOGIZE, I'M HAVING A LITTLE TROUBLE.
8 THE COURT: WHY DON'T YOU COME UP AND COMPARE.
9 MS. BINA: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
10 MR. PANISH: IS SHE QUESTIONING THE WITNESS?
11 THE COURT: BRING YOUR SET. BRING YOUR SET.
12 MS. BINA: I APOLOGIZE. IF THESE WERE IN ORDER,
13 I COULD FOLLOW ALONG.
14 MR. PANISH: YOUR HONOR, THEY WERE ALL PRODUCED,
15 PER THE COURT ORDER --
16 THE COURT: WE'RE NOT ARGUING --
17 MR. PANISH: -- ELECTRONICALLY TO COUNSEL.
18 THE COURT: COUNSEL, YOU'RE NOT -- LISTEN TO ME.
19 I WANT HER TO BE ABLE TO FOLLOW ALONG. THAT'S THE
20 IDEA. OKAY?
21 MR. PANISH: THERE'S EXHIBITS AT THE BOTTOM OF
22 EVERY PAGE.
23 THE COURT: I UNDERSTAND THAT.
24 ARE YOU READY?
25 MS. BINA: I THINK SO.
26 THE COURT: OKAY. GO DIRECTLY TO A PARTICULAR
27 PAGE, AND THEN WE CAN FIND THAT PAGE.
28 MR. PANISH: WELL, HE HAS MY COPY.

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1 WHY DON'T YOU JUST GO THROUGH -- DO I NEED
2 TO GO THROUGH THEM, TOO?
3 Q YOU CAN FIND THEM, RIGHT?
4 A EXHIBIT 5, DASH, 1338, SCHEDULE C, DETAILS
5 LIENS.
6 IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE REFERRING TO, COUNSEL?
7 MR. PANISH: LET'S START WITH THAT, YES.
8 OKAY? IS THERE OBJECTION TO THAT?
9 MS. BINA: YES, YOUR HONOR. THERE'S NO
10 FOUNDATION THAT THIS DOCUMENT IS A COURT RECORD. IT
11 APPEARS TO BE PART OF A STEWART TITLE DOCUMENT, AND I
12 DON'T THINK THE TITLE COMPANY DOCUMENT -- I'M NOT JUST
13 SURE -- IT'S PROBABLY A BUSINESS RECORD OF STEWART
14 TITLE, BUT I DON'T KNOW THAT HERE, NOW.
15 THE COURT: OKAY. I'LL SUSTAIN THE OBJECTION.
16 MR. PANISH: OKAY. WELL, LET'S JUST GO BACK AND
17 GO THROUGH EVERY ONE. LET'S START WITH 5, DASH,
18 1355.
19 MS. BINA: 1855?
20 THE WITNESS: 1355.
21 MS. BINA: THANK YOU.
22 Q BY MR. PANISH: NOW, DETECTIVE, EVERY ONE
23 OF THESE DOCUMENTS WERE PROVED TO BE ACCURATE AND HAVE
24 LIENS ON DR. MURRAY'S PROPERTY, CORRECT?
25 MS. BINA: OBJECTION; VAGUE AS TO "PROVED TO BE
26 ACCURATE."
27 MR. PANISH: FILED WITH THE COURT IN THE STATE OF
28 NEVADA.

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1 Q THAT'S HOW YOU GET A LIEN ON THE PROPERTY,
2 YOU FILE WITH A STATE COURT, CORRECT?
3 MS. BINA: OBJECTION; LACKS FOUNDATION THAT THIS
4 WITNESS KNOWS THAT.
5 THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
6 MR. PANISH: IS SHE QUESTIONING THE WITNESS OR IS
7 HE?
8 THE COURT: SHE'S MAKING OBJECTIONS AND I'M
9 SUSTAINING THEM.
10 MR. PANISH: LET'S PUT UP 1335, FORM JUDGMENT
11 FILED ON CONRAD MURRAY. PUT IT UP, 5, DASH, 1355
12 (SIC). OKAY? YOU SEE THAT IN THE RIGHT-HAND CORNER?
13 LET'S BLOW THAT UP. LET'S SEE WHAT THAT
14 SAYS.
15 Q WHAT DOES THAT SAY? "NOTICE, FEE, DEPUTY,
16 CLARK COUNTY RECORDER."
17 IS THAT A COURT COUNTY DOCUMENT FILED
18 OFFICIALLY WITH A STAMP FROM THE COURT IN THE STATE OF
19 NEVADA?
20 A YES.
21 MR. PANISH: MOVE THAT INTO EVIDENCE.
22 THE COURT: RECEIVED.
23
24 (MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION AND
25 RECEIVED INTO EVIDENCE,
26 EXHIBIT 5-1335; DOCUMENT.)
27
28 MS. BINA: WHAT'S THE LAST DATE OF THAT DOCUMENT?

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1 MR. PANISH: YOU HAVE IT.
2 NEXT EXHIBIT. 1356, LET'S PUT THAT UP,
3 "FILED, STATE OF NEVADA, CLERK," DECEMBER 5TH.
4 Q DO YOU SEE THAT? IS THAT AN OFFICIAL FILED
5 STAMP FOR THE CLERK IN THE COUNTY IN THE STATE OF
6 NEVADA?
7 A YES.
8 MR. PANISH: MOVE THAT INTO EVIDENCE.
9 THE COURT: RECEIVED.
10
11 (MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION AND
12 RECEIVED INTO EVIDENCE,
13 EXHIBIT 5-1356; DOCUMENT.)
14
15 Q BY MR. PANISH: NEXT -- THESE ARE ALL
16 ATTACHED TO THE STEWART TITLE DOCUMENTS THAT WERE
17 PRODUCED BY THE CUSTODIAN OF RECORDS, CORRECT?
18 A YES.
19 Q OKAY. LET'S GO TO THE NEXT ONE.
20 EXHIBIT 5, DASH, 1360, ANOTHER FINDING, AN ORDER AFTER
21 HEARING.
22 DO YOU SEE THAT?
23 MS. BINA: CAN I CLARIFY FOR A MOMENT, YOUR
24 HONOR, AS TO WHAT WAS MOVED IN THE LAST TIME? IT LOOKS
25 TO ME LIKE 1356 GOES THROUGH 1370 AS A SINGLE RECORD,
26 BUT I'M NOT CERTAIN OF THAT.
27 IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE MOVING?
28 MR. PANISH: I'M GOING THROUGH EVERY DOCUMENT.

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1 YOU OBJECTED TO EVERY ONE, I'M GOING THROUGH THEM.
2 THE COURT: IS THAT A MULTI-PAGE DOCUMENT?
3 MS. BINA: IT APPEARS TO BE A MULTI-PAGE
4 DOCUMENT. THAT'S WHY I'M QUESTIONING IT, YOUR HONOR.
5 THE COURT: LET ME --
6 MS. BINA: HERE'S THE DOCUMENT, YOUR HONOR, WHAT
7 I THINK IS THE DOCUMENT.
8 THE COURT: FROM 1355 THROUGH --
9 MS. BINA: THAT'S MY BEST GUESS, YOUR HONOR; BUT
10 IT'S A BIT HARD TO TELL WITH THESE DOCUMENTS.
11 MR. PANISH: EXCUSE ME. YOUR HONOR --
12 THE COURT: YEAH, THEY LOOK LIKE THEY'RE ALL
13 FILED, SO --
14 MR. PANISH: SO IS THERE AN OBJECTION TO THOSE?
15 MS. BINA: NO, THERE'S NO OBJECTION TO THOSE.
16 MR. PANISH: OKAY. WELL, LET'S GO THROUGH THEM,
17 THEN.
18 Q AGAIN, WE HAVE ANOTHER, 1360, FILING ON
19 DR. MURRAY, RIGHT?
20 A YES.
21 Q ALL RIGHT. LET'S KEEP GOING.
22 ALL OF THESE ARE ATTACHED AS COURT
23 DOCUMENTS FOR DEBTS, THINGS THAT WERE FILED AGAINST
24 DR. MURRAY, CORRECT?
25 A YES.
26 Q ON HIS PROPERTY, CORRECT?
27 A AND AGAINST HIM.
28 Q RIGHT.

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1 FOR EXAMPLE, 1366, LET'S SEE THIS. THIS IS
2 AN AFFIDAVIT OF A JUDGMENT CREDITOR, JULIE BROWN VERSUS
3 CONRAD MURRAY. SHE'S A JUDGMENT CREDITOR OF
4 CONRAD MURRAY FILING THIS IN THE STATE OF NEVADA,
5 CORRECT?
6 A YES.
7 Q NOTARIZED, FILED.
8 OKAY. NEXT, LET'S GO TO 1371. AGAIN,
9 CAPITAL ONE BANK VERSUS CONRAD MURRAY. FILED -- LET'S
10 GO TO THE RIGHT-HAND TOP CORNER -- STATE OF NEVADA,
11 CLARK COUNTY.
12 IS THAT AN OFFICIAL STAMP OF THE COURT IN
13 THE STATE OF NEVADA THAT COUNSEL IS OBJECTING TO?
14 MS. BINA: NO, YOUR HONOR. AND, AGAIN, I'D JUST
15 LIKE TO CLARIFY WHICH PAGES WE'RE MOVING IN AT THIS
16 POINT. 1371 THROUGH WHAT?
17 MR. PANISH: ALL OF THEM. THE REST OF THE
18 EXHIBIT.
19 THE COURT: WELL, AGAIN, YOUR HONOR, THERE'S A
20 NUMBER OF INDIVIDUAL DOCUMENTS IN HERE.
21 THE COURT: I'M GOING TO SUSTAIN THE OBJECTION.
22 YOU JUST CAN'T JUST SAY, "ALL OF THEM." IT'S OBVIOUS
23 THAT SOME OF THEM ARE COURT FILED, SOME OF THEM ARE
24 NOT. SO I THINK THE BEST THING TO DO IS TAKE THIS
25 EXHIBIT BACK, PULL OUT THE ONES THAT ALL HAVE THE COURT
26 STAMP, AND WE CAN MOVE THEM IN EN MASS. WE DON'T HAVE
27 TO GO THROUGH EVERY ONE.
28 MR. PANISH: EVERY ONE OF THESE THAT I'M HOLDING

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1 IN MY HAND WERE FILED WITH THE COURT.
2 THE COURT: PLAINTIFFS JUST SAID THE OPPOSITE.
3 SO I THINK THE BEST THING TO DO --
4 MR. PANISH: NO, THEY DIDN'T SAY THAT.
5 THE COURT: THE BEST THING TO DO IS MOVE ON PAST
6 THIS EXHIBIT. AFTER A BREAK, YOU CAN PULL OUT ALL OF
7 THOSE THAT HAVE THE COURT STAMP AND MOVE THEM IN
8 EN MASS. YOU DON'T HAVE TO TAKE THE TIME TO DO EVERY
9 SINGLE ONE.
10 MR. PANISH: THEY'RE OBJECTING. I NEED TO.
11 THE COURT: LET'S DO IT THAT WAY.
12 MR. PANISH: I'M GOING TO GO UP TO THE WITNESS
13 AND I'M GOING TO SHOW HIM 1372.
14 THE COURT: IS THAT PART OF THIS STACK?
15 MR. PANISH: YES, IT IS.
16 THE COURT: OKAY. WHAT DID I JUST -- I JUST SAID
17 ABOUT THE STACK WHAT WE'RE DOING IS WE'RE MOVING ON.
18 SO TAKE THAT BACK, LET'S MOVE ON. WE'VE ONLY GOT A
19 LITTLE BIT OF TIME WITH THIS WITNESS, SO LET'S JUST
20 MOVE ON.
21 MR. PANISH: YOU KNOW, ALL THESE DOCUMENTS WERE
22 SHOWN YESTERDAY, THERE WAS NO OBJECTION. NOW THERE'S
23 AN OBJECTION.
24 MS. BINA: AGAIN, YOUR HONOR, THERE WAS AN
25 OBJECTION YESTERDAY.
26 THE COURT: TIME HAS PASSED. LET'S MOVE ON.
27 MR. PANISH: LET'S GO TO 1356. EXCUSE ME.
28 134- -- EXCUSE ME. EXHIBIT 5, DASH, 1447 AND 1448.

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1 Q AGAIN, IS THIS FILED WITH THE COURT?
2 IT'S A DIFFERENT EXHIBIT.
3 THE COURT: IT'S NOT IN THIS STACK?
4 MR. PANISH: NO, IT ISN'T. IT'S A DIFFERENT
5 STACK.
6 THE COURT: OKAY.
7 MS. BINA: IT'S 1447 AND 48?
8 MR. PANISH: YES.
9 MS. BINA: MY ONLY OBJECTION TO THIS ONE, YOUR
10 HONOR, IS THAT IT APPEARS TO HAVE BEEN FILED AFTER
11 MR. JACKSON'S DEATH. I DON'T HAVE ANY OTHER ISSUES
12 WITH IT.
13 THE COURT: OKAY.
14 MS. BINA: SO I'M NOT SURE WHAT ITS RELEVANCE IS
15 TO THIS CASE.
16 Q BY MR. PANISH: TELL US, WHAT RELEVANCE DID
17 THIS HAVE IN YOUR INVESTIGATION WHETHER IT WAS FILED
18 BEFORE HIS DEATH OR AFTER HIS DEATH? WAS THIS SOME
19 DEBT THAT JUST AROSE AFTER MR. JACKSON'S DEATH?
20 MS. BINA: OBJECTION; LACKS FOUNDATION THAT THE
21 WITNESS KNOWS WHEN THE DEBT AROSE.
22 THE COURT: OVERRULED.
23 THE WITNESS: IT DETAILS A DEBT THAT IS -- EVEN
24 THOUGH IT WAS FILED AFTERWARDS, THE DEBT WAS ACCRUED
25 BEFORE THE DEATH.
26 MR. PANISH: AND IT'S, IN FACT, EVIDENCED BY THE
27 FIRST PAGE OF THIS EXHIBIT THAT COUNSEL JUST OBJECTED
28 TO, 5, DASH, 1334.

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1 Q THIS IS MORE PROOF OF THAT, ISN'T IT? I'LL
2 SHOW YOU THE PAGE.
3 A I HAVE 5, DASH, 1334 HERE.
4 Q AND IF WE GO THROUGH THAT, THIS IS THE SAME
5 INFORMATION, ISN'T IT?
6 MS. BINA: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. AGAIN, THIS IS
7 A LENGTHY TITLE DOCUMENT THAT THERE'S BEEN NO
8 FOUNDATION THE WITNESS HAS ANY ABILITY TO AUTHENTICATE;
9 AND THEN THE SECOND DOCUMENT, I HAVE NO ISSUES WITH.
10 THE COURT: COUNSEL, I'M GOING TO GIVE YOU A
11 CERTAIN AMOUNT OF TIME; AND IF YOU WANT TO SPEND THAT
12 TIME GOING THROUGH THIS RATHER THAN TAKING MY
13 SUGGESTION, YOU CAN DO THAT. BUT AFTER THAT TIME IS
14 UP, IT WILL BE UP.
15 MR. PANISH: WELL, YOUR HONOR, YESTERDAY --
16 THE COURT: SO I'D RATHER THAT YOU MOVE ON. I
17 CAN GIVE YOU A TIME LIMIT. WHAT DO YOU WANT TO DO?
18 MR. PANISH: I WOULD LIKE TO --
19 DETECTIVE, LET'S GO TO SOME OTHER -- SOME
20 MORE DOCUMENTS.
21 ALL THE DOCUMENTS FROM YESTERDAY, YOUR
22 HONOR, I, OBVIOUSLY, WANT TO MOVE THEM INTO EVIDENCE.
23 THERE WASN'T OBJECTION SPECIFICALLY. NOW THERE ARE
24 SOME. SO ACCORDING TO WHAT YOU'RE TELLING ME, I'M NOT
25 WAIVING ANYTHING, I CAN GO BACK TO THAT LATER?
26 THE COURT: YES.
27 MR. PANISH: BUT YOU WANT ME TO GO ON TO SOME
28 OTHER DOCUMENTS?

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1 THE COURT: CORRECT.
2 MR. PANISH: OKAY. THAT'S FINE, BUT THIS DIDN'T
3 HAPPEN YESTERDAY. SO LET'S START OVER. LET'S GO TO
4 SOME NEW STUFF. ALL RIGHT. LET'S LOOK AT EXHIBIT
5 NUMBER 462, DASH, 49 -- EXCUSE ME -- 462, DASH, 482 TO
6 487. LET'S SHOW THE FIRST PAGE, 462, DASH, 482.
7 MS. BINA: COUNSEL, DO WE HAVE A PAPER COPY OF
8 THIS ONE?
9 MR. PANISH: YES, YOU DO; AND YOU HAVE AN
10 ELECTRONIC COPY SINCE SUNDAY.
11 JUROR NUMBER 1: YOUR HONOR, THERE'S --
12 YOU LEFT SOME RIGHT THERE.
13 MS. BINA: MAYBE THAT'S WHY I CAN'T FIND IT.
14 MR. PANISH: CAN I ASK A QUESTION?
15 THE COURT: YES. YOU'RE THE ONE ASKING THE
16 QUESTIONS. YOU CAN ASK THE QUESTIONS.
17 MR. PANISH: 5, DASH, 1447 AND 1448, ARE THOSE IN
18 EVIDENCE?
19 THE COURT: WHICH ONES?
20 MR. PANISH: 5, DASH, 1447 AND 1448? THEY HAVE
21 THE COURT STAMP ON THEM.
22 THE COURT: YES, THEY ARE.
23 MR. PANISH: OKAY. THANK YOU.
24 NOW, IF WE COULD PUT UP THE NEXT EXHIBIT.
25 DO WE HAVE THAT?
26 DETECTIVE, THIS IS REFERRING TO
27 DR. MURRAY'S MONTHLY INCOME.
28 Q WAS THIS FILED WITH THE COURT IN THE STATE

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1 OF NEVADA?
2 A I BELIEVE THE STATE OF CALIFORNIA.
3 MR. PANISH: STATE OF CALIFORNIA. I'M SORRY.
4 RIGHT. SAN DIEGO. OKAY.
5 I WOULD MOVE INTO EVIDENCE, YOUR HONOR,
6 THIS OFFICIAL COURT DOCUMENT, 462, DASH, 482, TO 462,
7 487.
8 THE COURT: IT'S RECEIVED.
9 MR. PANISH: 488. I'M SORRY.
10
11 (MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION AND
12 RECEIVED INTO EVIDENCE,
13 EXHIBIT 462-482; DOCUMENT.)
14
15 MR. PANISH: LET'S GO TO THE NEXT ONE, 462, DASH,
16 4905 AND 4908. SHOW THE FIRST PAGE.
17 Q IS THAT AN OFFICIAL DOCUMENT FILED WITH THE
18 COURT?
19 A YES.
20 MR. PANISH: I'LL MOVE THOSE DOCUMENTS INTO
21 EVIDENCE.
22 THE COURT: RECEIVED.
23 MS. BINA: NO OBJECTION.
24
25 (MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION AND
26 RECEIVED INTO EVIDENCE,
27 EXHIBIT 462-4905; DOCUMENT.)
28

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1 MR. PANISH: OKAY. LET'S GO TO THE NEXT ONE. I
2 THINK WE TALKED ABOUT THIS YESTERDAY, SO LET ME JUST
3 ASK COUNSEL IF THEY OBJECT, AND THEN I'LL SPEED IT UP.
4 462, DASH, 502 THROUGH 514, EXPENSE DECLARATION FILED
5 BY DR. MURRAY.
6 MS. BINA: 502?
7 MR. PANISH: YES, 5002.
8 MS. BINA: OH, 5002.
9 THROUGH WHAT? 14?
10 MR. PANISH: THROUGH 14.
11 MS. BINA: NO OBJECTION.
12 MR. PANISH: OKAY. LET'S GO TO THE NEXT ONE.
13 I'LL JUST SHOW YOU THE FIRST PAGE. YOU HAVEN'T SEEN
14 THIS YET. THIS IS AN ORDER -- LET'S GO TO 462-794, AN
15 ORDER FOR EVICTION DATED MARCH 9TH, 2009, "DEFENDANT,
16 CONRAD MURRAY." JUST SHOW THAT FIRST PAGE. I WANT TO
17 INTRODUCE THAT WHOLE GROUP FROM THE COURT.
18 THE COURT: OKAY. I DON'T HEAR AN OBJECTION, I'M
19 GOING TO ASSUME IT'S IN EVIDENCE. OKAY?
20 MS. BINA: YES, YOUR HONOR. THERE'S NO
21 OBJECTION. I'M TRYING TO FIGURE OUT -- WHAT'S THE END
22 PAGE?
23 MR. PANISH: 7985.
24 MS. BINA: NO OBJECTION.
25
26 (MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION AND
27 RECEIVED INTO EVIDENCE,
28 EXHIBIT 462-794; DOCUMENT.)

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1 MR. PANISH: I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU THESE. I
2 DON'T WANT TO HAVE TO GO THROUGH EVERY ONE.
3 Q WHY DON'T YOU JUST TELL ME WHAT THESE
4 OFFICIAL COURT DOCUMENTS RELATED TO, AND WHY THAT WAS
5 RELEVANT FOR YOUR INVESTIGATION IN THIS CASE.
6 A THESE WERE RELATED TO DR. MURRAY'S AND HIS
7 BUSINESS'S EVICTION FROM THE BUSINESS PREMISES.
8 Q AND WHAT WAS THE REASON FOR THE EVICTION?
9 A NONPAYMENT.
10 Q NOT PAYING RENT?
11 A CORRECT.
12 Q OKAY. LET'S LOOK AT THE NEXT ONE.
13 THAT'S IN 2007?
14 A YES.
15 Q THOSE ARE ALL IN EVIDENCE.
16 LET'S GO TO THE NEXT ONE, 2009, A FIVE-DAY
17 NOTICE TO PAY OR QUIT FILED WITH THE COURT. LET'S PUT
18 THAT UP, 462, DASH, 7987.
19 ANY OBJECTION TO THAT?
20 MS. BINA: NO.
21 Q BY MR. PANISH: AND WHAT DOES THAT SHOW?
22 A AMOUNTS OF WHAT HE OWES ON HIS BUSINESS
23 ADDRESS -- OR FOR RENT AT HIS PLACE OF BUSINESS.
24 Q OKAY. AND THIS IS MAY 2009?
25 A YES.
26 Q OKAY. LET'S GO TO THE NEXT ONE, 462, DASH,
27 8062, AGAIN, FILED WITH THE CLARK COUNTY COURT. LET'S
28 PUT UP THAT DOCUMENT, PLEASE.

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1 THAT'S NOT IT. 462-8052. THAT'S NOT IT.
2 THERE WE GO.
3 OKAY. IS THAT A DOCUMENT STAMP ON THE
4 RIGHT -- YOU'RE FAMILIAR WITH THOSE STAMPS ON THE
5 RIGHT?
6 A YES.
7 Q WHAT ARE THOSE?
8 A THEY'RE DOCUMENTS FROM THE COURT OR FROM
9 THE RECORDER THAT THEY'RE OFFICIAL DOCUMENTS.
10 Q OKAY. AND WHEN YOU GOT ALL THESE
11 DOCUMENTS, DID YOU GET WHAT IS CALLED CERTIFIED COPIES
12 OF ALL THESE DOCUMENTS?
13 A YES.
14 WE WERE PLANNING TO USE THEM IN COURT, SO
15 WE WANTED CERTIFIED COPIES, NOT THE COPIES THAT WE HAD
16 FOUND AT THE SCENE OR IN DR. MURRAY'S POSSESSION.
17 MS. BINA: COUNSEL, WHAT WAS THE END DATE OF THAT
18 LAST DOCUMENT?
19 MR. PANISH: JUST ONE PAGE.
20 MS. BINA: JUST ONE?
21 MR. PANISH: ACTUALLY, I TAKE THAT BACK. THERE'S
22 TWO PAGES, 8053 --
23 Q OKAY. SO THEN WHAT WAS THE RELEVANCE OF
24 DR. MURRAY HAVING DELINQUENT TAXES?
25 A JUST SOME MORE EVIDENCE OF HIM BEING IN
26 FINANCIAL DIRE STRAITS.
27 Q OKAY. LET'S LOOK AT -- ACTUALLY, THIS GOES
28 WITH THE LAST DOCUMENT, THE 462-8062.

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1 WHEN YOU SAW THE NOTICE OF FAILURE TO PAY
2 THE TAXES, IT GIVES A DESCRIPTION OF WHAT IS OWED. AND
3 DID YOU GO BACK TO DETERMINE THE EXACT LOCATION OF THE
4 PROPERTY AND WHO OWNED THE PROPERTY?
5 A I DON'T RECALL AT THIS -- THIS WAS THE --
6 I'M NOT SURE THIS WAS FOR A PROPERTY. I THINK THIS WAS
7 FOR A MEMBERSHIP.
8 Q OKAY. THIS IS A DEBT THAT WAS OWED?
9 A YES, SIR.
10 Q IT SAYS "PARCEL, OWNER NAME, CONRAD MURRAY,
11 DESCRIPTION, 268, PLAT BOOK PAGE, LOT."
12 IS THIS A LOT?
13 A I'M THINKING THIS IS HIS HOMEOWNER'S FEES
14 THAT HE HADN'T BEEN PAYING, BUT IT'S BEEN A WHILE SINCE
15 I'VE LOOKED AT IT.
16 MR. PANISH: ALL RIGHT. I MOVE THAT INTO
17 EVIDENCE.
18 MS. BINA: I'M GOING TO OBJECT AS LACK OF
19 FOUNDATION. HE JUST TESTIFIED HE DOESN'T KNOW EXACTLY
20 WHAT IT IS.
21 THE COURT: WAS THIS ON THE COURT DOCUMENT?
22 MS. BINA: IT'S NOT CLEAR, YOUR HONOR. THERE'S
23 TWO PAGES THAT ARE COURT DOCUMENT, AND THIS PAGE IS
24 ALSO ON ITS OWN. IT'S ALSO BEEN HEAVILY REDACTED, AND
25 I'M NOT SURE WHAT THE REDACTED PORTIONS INDICATED.
26 MR. PANISH: WHY DON'T YOU TELL US WHY PART OF
27 THIS IS REDACTED.
28 Q DOES THAT NOT RETAIN TO DR. MURRAY?

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1 A NO. THE OTHER REDACTED PARTIES WERE OTHER
2 FOLKS.
3 Q AND FOR THEIR PRIVACY, THEY WERE REDACTED?
4 A YES.
5 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. I'LL CONDITIONALLY ADMIT
6 IT.
7
8 (MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION AND
9 RECEIVED INTO EVIDENCE,
10 EXHIBIT 462-8062; DOCUMENT.)
11
12 MR. PANISH: OKAY. LET'S GO -- ACTUALLY, THE
13 NEXT DOCUMENT, WHICH IS FROM THE CLERK, CLARK COUNTY
14 COUNTY RECORDER, AND THAT'S 462-8036 THROUGH 8038, THIS
15 IS A DIFFERENT DOCUMENT.
16 Q WAS THIS OBTAINED FROM THE CLARK COUNTY
17 RECORDER?
18 A YES, IT WAS.
19 Q AND IS THIS LISTING VARIOUS LIENS FILED
20 WITH THE COUNTY OF CLARK IN THE STATE OF NEVADA
21 PERTAINING TO DR. MURRAY?
22 A YES, IT DOES.
23 MR. PANISH: I'LL MOVE THAT INTO EVIDENCE.
24 THE COURT: IT'S RECEIVED.
25
26 (MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION AND
27 RECEIVED INTO EVIDENCE,
28 EXHIBIT 462-8036; DOCUMENT.)

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1 MR. PANISH: AND THERE ARE THREE -- TWO FULL
2 PAGES OF VARIOUS DEBTS BY DR. MURRAY. SOME ARE NOT
3 VERY MUCH.
4 Q WHAT WAS THE RELEVANCE OF THIS?
5 A THE SAME --
6 Q WELL, ACTUALLY, THE -- THE -- THIS DOESN'T
7 SAY THE EXACT AMOUNT OF THE DEBT, IT JUST SAYS HOW MUCH
8 HE HAD TO PAY TO GET THE DOCUMENTS?
9 A YES.
10 THIS IS A SCHEDULE OF FEES FOR THE COPIES.
11 Q AND THESE WERE ACTUALLY SOME OF THE
12 DOCUMENTS THAT WE JUST WENT THROUGH. FOR EXAMPLE, IF
13 YOU LOOK AT THE FIRST ONE, RED ROCK COUNTRY CLUB,
14 B.L.U.C. HOMEOWNERS, AND THERE'S A P.D.F. FILE ATTACHED
15 TO WHAT YOU GOT FROM THE COUNTY RECORDER -- AND THAT'S
16 THE DOCUMENT THAT I JUST SHOWED YOU?
17 A YES.
18 Q SO ALL OF THESE DOCUMENTS THAT WE'VE BEEN
19 GOING THROUGH ON THE LIENS WERE OBTAINED THROUGH THE
20 COUNTY RECORDER OF CLARK COUNTY IN THE STATE OF NEVADA?
21 A INCLUDING THE STEWART TITLE ONES. THAT
22 WAY, WE COULD ADMIT THEM INTO COURT.
23 Q AND THEY'RE ALL OFFICIAL DOCUMENTS FILED
24 WITH THE CLARK COUNTY RECORDER, CORRECT?
25 MS. BINA: OBJECTION; LACKS FOUNDATION AS TO
26 "ALL." I'M NOT SURE WHICH HE'S REFERRING TO.
27 THE COURT: WELL, YOU HAVE TO TELL ME. WERE THEY
28 ALL OFFICIALLY FILED OR NOT? BECAUSE IT'S NOT APPARENT

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1 FROM LOOKING. SOME OF THEM HAVE THE COURT FILE OR
2 STAMP, SOME OF THEM DON'T, SO THEREIN LIES THE
3 CONFUSION.
4 MR. PANISH: PLEASE EXPLAIN.
5 THE WITNESS: THE -- THE ONES WITH THE STAMP ARE
6 THE COURT DOCUMENTS. SOME OF THE ONES WITHOUT THE
7 STAMP ARE FILED WITH THE COURT, BUT WERE NOT CREATED BY
8 THE COURT.
9 Q BY MR. PANISH: IN OTHER WORDS, THEY'RE
10 LIKE ATTACHMENTS OR EXHIBITS?
11 THE COURT: YEAHM THAT'S --
12 Q BY MR. PANISH: -- BUT THEY'RE STILL PART
13 OF THE COURT RECORD AVAILABLE FOR THE PUBLIC TO GET?
14 A YES.
15 THE COURT: OKAY.
16 Q BY MR. PANISH: JUST LIKE --
17 THE COURT: THAT'S FINE.
18 Q BY MR. PANISH: -- THE STEWART TITLE
19 DOCUMENTS THAT WE STARTED OUT WITH THIS MORNING?
20 A THE FIRST 20 PAGES OR SO WHERE IT'S LIKE
21 STEWART TITLE BUSINESS RECORDS; AND THEN AFTER THAT, IT
22 WAS COURT-STAMPED STUFF.
23 Q AND WERE THOSE ALSO -- THE STEWART -- SOME
24 OF THE STEWART TITLE DOCUMENTS FILED AS PART OF THESE
25 VARIOUS PROCEEDINGS WITH THE COURT INVOLVING
26 DR. MURRAY?
27 A THEY WERE IN THE COURT FILE.
28 MR. PANISH: ALL RIGHT.

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1 MS. BINA: AGAIN, YOUR HONOR, I'M GOING TO OBJECT
2 TO FOUNDATION.
3 THE COURT: IT'S A LITTLE VAGUE. "THE FIRST 20
4 PAGES" IS A LITTLE VAGUE, EVERYTHING ELSE SOUNDS LIKE
5 IT'S GOOD. WHAT I'M GOING TO DO IS CONDITIONALLY ADMIT
6 IT. WE CAN GO THROUGH IT LATER AT A BREAK.
7 MS. BINA: THAT'S FINE, YOUR HONOR.
8 MR. PANISH: ALL RIGHT. LET'S GO TO THE NEXT
9 EXHIBIT, 462-4726 TO 4727.
10 Q NOW, DID YOU CHECK DR. MURRAY'S CREDIT?
11 A YES.
12 Q HOW DID YOU DO THAT?
13 A BY SERVING A GRAND JURY SUBPOENA ON
14 TRANSUNION, EQUIFAX AND EXPERION.
15 Q AND IS THAT SOMETHING THAT'S COMMONLY DONE
16 IN POLICE WORK?
17 A YES.
18 Q AND IS THAT DONE TO DETERMINE WHETHER
19 SOMEONE HAS ANY FINANCIAL SITUATION THAT MAY BE
20 RELEVANT TO YOUR INVESTIGATION?
21 A YES.
22 Q AND ANYONE CAN DO THIS?
23 A ANYONE CAN DO IT. NOT WITH GRAND JURY
24 SUBPOENAS, BUT ANYONE CAN DO IT. YOU PAY MONEY, AND --
25 PRIVATE INVESTIGATORS DO IT, AND POLICEMEN DO IT,
26 AND -- YOU JUST PAY MONEY.
27 Q AND YOU CAN DO IT ON YOURSELF?
28 A YES.

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1 Q YOU CAN GIVE SOMEBODY ELSE AN AUTHORIZATION
2 TO DO IT FOR YOU?
3 A FOR FREE, YES.
4 MR. PANISH: OKAY. AND WHAT -- FIRST OF ALL, I
5 WOULD MOVE THESE INTO EVIDENCE.
6 MS. BINA: WHICH PAGES?
7 THE COURT: 4726, 4727?
8 MR. PANISH: THE SECOND PART IS AN EXPLANATION,
9 BUT THE MAIN DOCUMENTS GO TO 4731. THE REST ARE
10 DOCUMENTS THAT EXPLAIN WHAT IT MEANS, SO --
11 MS. BINA: YOUR HONOR, I'LL OBJECT TO HEARSAY.
12 THESE ARE DOCUMENTS PRODUCED OUT OF COURT. THE
13 WITNESS, AS A DETECTIVE, IS, OF COURSE, ALLOWED TO RELY
14 ON THEM; BUT THERE'S NO FOUNDATION THAT THESE RECORDS
15 ACCURATELY REFLECT, AND NO ONE HAS AUTHENTICATED
16 THEM.
17 THE COURT: I'M GOING TO SUSTAIN THE OBJECTION.
18 Q BY MR. PANISH: DID YOU CHECK TO SEE
19 WHETHER THIS WAS ACCURATE?
20 A FROM THE INFORMATION ON THE CREDIT REPORT,
21 WE ORDERED COURT DOCUMENTS RELATED TO THOSE CASES. TO
22 SOME OF THEM, NOT ALL OF THEM. TO SOME OF THEM.
23 Q DID YOU FIND ANY OF THESE THAT YOU
24 COULDN'T -- THAT WERE NOT ACCURATE THAT DR. MURRAY WAS
25 IN DESPERATE FINANCIAL STRAITS?
26 A NO.
27 MR. PANISH: OKAY. WELL, LET'S LOOK AT IT,
28 THEN.

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1 MS. BINA: YOUR HONOR, I'M GOING TO OBJECT TO
2 GOING THROUGH A DOCUMENT WHERE YOU'VE SUSTAINED AN
3 OBJECTION TO ADMISSION.
4 THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
5 Q BY MR. PANISH: WELL, DID YOU CONSIDER AND
6 RELY ON THIS IN FORMULATING YOUR OPINIONS IN THIS CASE?
7 A YES.
8 Q AND YOU COMMONLY, AS A POLICE OFFICER, WHEN
9 DOING THIS WORK, RELY ON DOCUMENTS JUST LIKE THAT IN
10 FORMULATING OPINIONS?
11 A YES.
12 MR. PANISH: I'D LIKE TO SHOW IT TO GO THROUGH
13 IT.
14 THE COURT: OKAY. WHAT I'M GOING TO DO IS GIVE
15 THE JURY AN INSTRUCTION THAT YOU'RE NOT TO ACCEPT THE
16 CONTENTS OF THE CREDIT REPORT FOR ITS TRUTH, BUT JUST
17 TO SUPPORT HIS OPINIONS CONCERNING DR. MURRAY AND HIS
18 FINANCIAL CONDITION.
19 SO WITH THAT, YOU CAN --
20 MR. PANISH: OKAY. THANK YOU.
21 Q AND WHETHER ANY ONE IS TRUE, FIVE ARE TRUE,
22 IS THIS SOME PRETTY IMPORTANT EVIDENCE FOR SOMEONE TO
23 DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT THERE'S FINANCIAL PROBLEMS
24 WITH AN INDIVIDUAL?
25 A YES.
26 Q AND THIS COULD EASILY BE DONE BY ANYBODY IN
27 2009 TO GET THIS INFORMATION?
28 MS. BINA: OBJECTION; LACKS FOUNDATION.

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1 THE COURT: OVERRULED.
2 THE WITNESS: I KNOW OF SEVERAL DIFFERENT WAYS TO
3 DO IT, BUT I JUST DO IT DURING THE COURSE OF MY
4 BUSINESS.
5 Q BY MR. PANISH: IT'S NOT LIKE YOU'VE GOT TO
6 HAVE F.B.I. SECRET C.I.A. CLEARANCE TO GET THIS OR
7 ANYTHING, DO YOU?
8 A NO.
9 Q SO LET'S JUST TAKE A LOOK AT THE TYPE OF
10 DEBTS THAT DR. MURRAY HAD. IF WE JUST GO THROUGH
11 STARTING AT THE TOP, "HICA EDUCATION LOANS."
12 DID YOU DETERMINE WHAT THAT IS?
13 A HIS STUDENT LOANS.
14 Q IN DEFAULT OR NOT PAYING THEM BACK?
15 A YES.
16 Q OKAY. THEN WE GO DOWN, WE'VE GOT CAP ONE.
17 WHAT IS THAT?
18 A CREDIT CARD.
19 Q AND WHEN IT SAYS "DELINQUENT, 150," WHAT
20 DOES THAT MEAN?
21 A HE HAS NOT BEEN PAYING.
22 Q LET'S GO TO THE NEXT PAGE. D.H.H.S.,
23 H.R.S.A., 54,000, 71,000, C.O.L.L.A.C.C.T., WHAT DOES
24 THAT MEAN?
25 A I DON'T RECALL WHAT IT WAS FOR. IT'S IN
26 COLLECTIONS, BUT I -- AS OF TODAY, I DON'T REMEMBER
27 WHAT COMPANY IT WAS FOR.
28 Q OKAY. THE NEXT ONE, AMERICAN STUDENT

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1 A.S.T., COLLECTION, 3249, 4199, WHAT IS THAT?
2 A ANOTHER STUDENT LOAN.
3 Q I.S.A.C. COLLECTION, IT SAYS "ORIGINAL
4 CREDITOR, STUDENT LOAN CORPORATION."
5 IS THAT A STUDENT LOAN?
6 A YES.
7 Q NEXT -- I DON'T WANT TO REALLY HAVE TO GO
8 THROUGH EVERY ONE OF THESE, SO LET'S JUST EXPEDITE IT.
9 THERE ARE STUDENT LOANS, THERE ARE FUNDING COMPANIES,
10 CREDIT MANAGEMENT COMPANIES, THERE ARE MEDICAL PAYMENT
11 COMPANIES, THERE ARE CELL PHONE COMPANIES?
12 MS. BINA: OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. MR. PANISH IS
13 TESTIFYING AT THIS POINT.
14 THE COURT: OVERRULED. HE'S SUMMARIZING.
15 MR. PANISH: YES, TRYING TO.
16 Q SALLY MAE, THAT'S STUDENT -- THAT'S -- I
17 DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT IS. IS THAT LOANS OR SOME KIND OF
18 DEBT PAID -- THAT MUST BE A HOME LOAN.
19 DO YOU KNOW WHAT SALLY MAE IS?
20 A I THINK IT WAS A STUDENT LOAN.
21 Q OKAY. I MEAN, THERE ARE ALL KINDS OF
22 DEBTS; IS THAT A FAIR STATEMENT?
23 A YES.
24 Q LET'S GO TO THE NEXT PAGE.
25 AGAIN, SALLY MAE, CITIBANK, CHASE BANK,
26 COUNTY OF SANTA CLARA, FREMONT INVESTMENTS, S.L.M.A.,
27 ON AND ON AND ON. ANOTHER FULL PAGE OF DEBTS EITHER
28 DELINQUENT -- ACTUALLY, LET'S GO TO THE NEXT PAGE.

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1 WHEN IT SAYS "CURRENT ACCOUNT," DOES THAT
2 MEAN HE'S PAYING?
3 A YES.
4 Q SO SOME OF THESE, HE ACTUALLY WAS PAYING?
5 A YES.
6 Q YET HE WAS BEING DEFAULTED ON HIS HOME?
7 A CORRECT.
8 Q ALL RIGHT. NOW, THEN, IF WE GO TO THE NEXT
9 PAGE IN THE MIDDLE, IT SAYS "INQUIRIES."
10 DO YOU SEE THAT?
11 A NO.
12 Q WELL, I DON'T SEE IT, EITHER. BUT IT'S THE
13 SECOND LINE DOWN.
14 A YES, SIR.
15 Q ABOVE THAT. RIGHT THERE. OKAY.
16 "INQUIRIES," DO YOU SEE THAT?
17 A YES.
18 Q WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
19 A I DO NOT KNOW. I DID NOT INQUIRE.
20 Q OKAY. I GUESS THAT MEANS YOU DON'T KNOW.
21 ALL RIGHT. LET'S GO TO THE NEXT. THE NEXT
22 DOCUMENT IS 462-4712 THROUGH 4724.
23 IS SOMETHING THAT YOU -- LET'S LOOK AT THE
24 FIRST PAGE AND YOU CAN IDENTIFY IT FOR US.
25 IS THIS IN RESPONSE TO A SUBPOENA THAT YOU
26 SERVED?
27 A YES, IT IS.
28 Q AND WHO DID YOU SERVE WITH THE SUBPOENA?

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1 A EQUIFAX.
2 Q AND DID EQUIFAX SEND THIS BACK TO YOU?
3 A YES.
4 Q AND WAS THIS SENT BACK TO YOU FROM THE
5 CUSTODIAN OF RECORDS OF EQUIFAX?
6 A YES.
7 Q AND WHAT DID YOU REQUEST FROM EQUIFAX?
8 A THE SAME THING, CREDIT HISTORY ON
9 DR. MURRAY.
10 Q AND THESE ARE THE DOCUMENTS THAT WERE
11 PROVIDED TO YOU BY THE CUSTODIAN OF RECORDS OF EQUIFAX?
12 A YES.
13 MS. BINA: YOUR HONOR, I'LL MAKE THE SAME
14 OBJECTION, INSTRUCT THAT THE JURY -- ASK THAT THE JURY
15 BE INSTRUCTED THE SAME WAY.
16 THE COURT: SAME THING. THE DOCUMENT IS ADMITTED
17 NOT FOR THE TRUTH OF THE MATTERS IN THERE, BUT TO
18 INFORM THE INVESTIGATOR AS TO INFORMATION THAT INFORMED
19 HIS OPINION CONCERNING DR. MURRAY AND HIS CONDITION,
20 HIS CRIMINAL INTENT.
21 MR. PANISH: IS THIS ADMITTED NOW, THIS ONE?
22 MS. BINA: AGAIN, YOUR HONOR, I WOULD OBJECT TO
23 ITS ADMISSION. WITH THIS SORT OF DOCUMENT, THEY CAN BE
24 SHOWN CONDITIONALLY, BUT THEY'RE NOT PART OF
25 EVIDENCE.
26 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. CONDITIONALLY ADMITTED.
27 WE'LL TALK ABOUT IT. BUT YOU CAN SHOW IT.
28 MR. PANISH: WELL, I DON'T NEED TO GO THROUGH IT

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1 ALL.
2 Q SAME THING?
3 A BASICALLY THE SAME THING.
4 Q A LOT OF DEBTS?
5 A YES.
6 Q DID THIS FURTHER CORROBORATE YOUR OPINION
7 THAT DR. MURRAY WAS IN DESPERATE, DIRE FINANCIAL
8 STRAITS AS OF MAY/JUNE OF 2009?
9 A YES.
10 MR. PANISH: LET'S GO TO THE NEXT ONE.
11 MS. BINA: JUST FOR THE RECORD, CAN WE HAVE AN
12 END DATE OF THAT LAST DOCUMENT?
13 MR. PANISH: THERE IS NO DATE.
14 Q ALL RIGHT. NOW, DOCTOR -- DETECTIVE, IF
15 ANYONE WERE TO RUN THE CREDIT REPORT, THEY WOULD HAVE
16 GOT THE SAME INFORMATION?
17 A YES.
18 Q A.E.G. LIVE, IF THEY HAD DONE IT, THEY
19 WOULD HAVE RECEIVED THE SAME INFORMATION?
20 MS. BINA: OBJECTION; LACKS FOUNDATION AS TO WHAT
21 A.E.G. LIVE WOULD HAVE RECEIVED, AND AS TO WHEN.
22 THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
23 Q BY MR. PANISH: WELL, HAVE YOU, ON VARIOUS
24 OCCASIONS, SERVED SUBPOENAS OR JUST REQUESTS FOR
25 INFORMATION -- STRIKE THAT.
26 YOU DON'T NEED A SUBPOENA TO GET THIS
27 INFORMATION, DO YOU?
28 A WHEN IT'S PURSUANT TO A CRIMINAL

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1 INVESTIGATION, I DO.
2 Q OKAY. BUT FOR A REGULAR INDIVIDUAL, THEY
3 DON'T HAVE SUBPOENA POWER?
4 A REGULAR INDIVIDUALS DO NOT HAVE SUBPOENA
5 POWER.
6 Q RIGHT.
7 THEY HAVE AUTHORIZATIONS, SOMEBODY CAN SIGN
8 AN AUTHORIZATION SAYING, "TURN THIS INFORMATION OVER"?
9 A DO YOU MEAN GIVING PERMISSION FOR SOMEONE
10 ELSE?
11 YES.
12 Q ALL RIGHT. 459-1 AND 2, COURT DOCUMENT,
13 DEFAULT JUDGMENT AGAINST DR. MURRAY, APRIL 25TH, 2008,
14 STATE OF NEVADA.
15 DID YOU DETERMINE THAT GLOBAL
16 CARDIOVASCULAR ASSOCIATES, INC., WAS DR. MURRAY'S
17 BUSINESS IN NEVADA?
18 A YES, THAT WAS HIS BUSINESS ON FLAMINGO
19 ROAD.
20 Q AND DID YOU OBTAIN THIS FROM -- IS THIS AN
21 OFFICIAL COURT DOCUMENT?
22 A IT IS.
23 MR. PANISH: MOVE THAT INTO EVIDENCE.
24 THE COURT: THAT'S RECEIVED.
25
26 (MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION AND
27 RECEIVED INTO EVIDENCE, EXHIBIT 459;
28 DOCUMENT.)

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1 MR. PANISH: NEXT, 457, DASH, 1 THROUGH 2.
2 AGAIN, ANOTHER APPLICATION FOR A FOREIGN JUDGMENT
3 AGAINST DR. MURRAY FILED WITH THE COURT SEPTEMBER 17TH,
4 2008, IN NEVADA. PUT THAT UP.
5 Q IS THAT AN OFFICIAL COURT DOCUMENT?
6 A YES.
7 Q NEXT, 458, DASH, 1 THROUGH 3, THIS IS AN
8 ORDER AND A JUDGMENT FILED IN MISSOURI, STATE OF
9 MISSOURI, AGAINST DR. CONRAD MURRAY.
10 IS THAT AN OFFICIAL COURT DOCUMENT?
11 A YES.
12 Q THAT'S FOR $135,000 PLUS COSTS?
13 IT'S ON THE SECOND PAGE.
14 RIGHT THERE, 135,302.42?
15 A YES.
16 Q OKAY. AGAIN, FURTHER CORROBORATING YOUR
17 OPINION THAT DR. MURRAY WAS IN DESPERATE FINANCIAL
18 STRAITS?
19 A IT DID.
20 Q OKAY. NEXT EXHIBIT, 455, DASH, 1 AND 2,
21 ANOTHER DEFAULT JUDGMENT FILED BY CAPITAL ONE BANK
22 AGAINST DR. MURRAY SEPTEMBER 26TH, 2008, IN THE STATE
23 OF NEVADA.
24 AGAIN, THIS IS ANOTHER DOCUMENT YOU
25 CONSIDERED AND RELIED UPON?
26 A IT WAS.
27 MR. PANISH: OKAY. LET'S GO TO THE NEXT ONE.
28 I MOVE THAT IN, YOUR HONOR.

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1 THE COURT: IT'S RECEIVED.
2
3 (MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION AND
4 RECEIVED INTO EVIDENCE, EXHIBIT 455;
5 DOCUMENT.)
6
7 MR. PANISH: 454, 1 AND 2, DISTRICT COURT, CLARK
8 COUNTY, DEFAULT JUDGMENT AGAINST CONRAD MURRAY FOR
9 ABOUT, YOU KNOW, 70,000. AND THIS IS BY THE H.I.C.A.
10 EDUCATION LOAN.
11 Q IS IT YOUR UNDERSTANDING WHETHER THAT WAS A
12 STUDENT LOAN?
13 A YES.
14 Q AND DR. MURRAY DIDN'T PAY THESE STUDENT
15 LOANS, AND THEY HAD A DEFAULT JUDGMENT OF HIM
16 MARCH 31ST, 2009?
17 A CORRECT.
18 Q FURTHER EVIDENCING, IN YOUR OPINION, THAT
19 DR. MURRAY WAS IN FINANCIAL TROUBLE?
20 A YES.
21 Q NOW, DID YOU, SIR, ALSO SUBPOENA AND OBTAIN
22 OFFICIAL DOCUMENTS FILED WITH THE STATE LICENSING
23 BOARDS REGARDING DR. MURRAY'S LICENSES?
24 A THE STATE MEDICAL BOARDS, YES.
25 Q THE STATE MEDICAL BOARDS.
26 AND THAT'S AN OFFICIAL ENTITY OF THE STATE?
27 A YES, SIR.
28 Q AND DID YOU OBTAIN DOCUMENTS AS TO WHETHER

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1 OR NOT DR. MURRAY HAD HAD ANY PROBLEMS WITH HIS
2 LICENSING OR HIS PRACTICE OF MEDICINE?
3 A YES.
4 Q OKAY. LET'S FIRST SHOW YOU 462.
5 LET ME GO BACK. LET'S GO TO -- I CAN'T PUT
6 MY HAND ON IT, SO LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT SOMETHING ELSE.
7 DID YOU SUBPOENA -- HERE'S ANOTHER -- DID
8 YOU SUBPOENA PHONE RECORDS FOR DR. MURRAY?
9 A I DID.
10 Q HOW DID YOU GO ABOUT DOING THAT?
11 A YOU WRITE A SEARCH WARRANT OR A COURT
12 ORDER; AND YOU SEND IT OFF TO THE PHONE COMPANY; AND
13 THEY GIVE YOU, YOU KNOW, INCOMING, OUTGOING, THE
14 ELECTRONIC SERIAL NUMBER, THE LOCATION WHERE THE PHONE
15 IS WHEN THE CALLS ARE MADE FOR THE TIME PERIOD THAT YOU
16 REQUEST.
17 Q OKAY. LET ME SHOW YOU -- I'M GOING TO
18 APPROACH ON THIS -- EXHIBIT 530-94 FIRST.
19 IS THAT A PAGE OF THE PHONE RECORDS?
20 A YES, IT IS.
21 Q OKAY. AND I'M GOING TO PUT THERE 95,
22 30-96, 97, 98, 99, 30-100, AND 30-101.
23 NOW, ARE THESE DR. MURRAY'S PHONE RECORDS
24 THAT YOU SUBPOENAED FROM THE PHONE COMPANY?
25 A YES, THEY ARE.
26 MR. PANISH: MOVE THOSE INTO EVIDENCE.
27 MS. BINA: CAN I OBJECT ON COMPLETENESS GROUNDS,
28 YOUR HONOR? THIS APPEARS TO START WITH PAGE 122 OF

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1 188. I HAVE NO OBJECTION TO THE RECORDS BEING
2 ADMITTED, BUT I WOULD ASK THAT THE ENTIRE SET BE
3 ADMITTED.
4 THE COURT: LET'S TALK ABOUT THAT LATER. I WILL
5 ADMIT THIS. IF THERE'S SOME OTHER DOCUMENTS YOU WANT
6 TO ADMIT FOR COMPLETENESS, WE'LL TALK ABOUT IT LATER,
7 BUT THESE ARE ADMITTED.
8
9 (MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION AND
10 RECEIVED INTO EVIDENCE, EXHIBIT 30;
11 DOCUMENTS.)
12
13 MR. PANISH: OKAY. CAN WE PUT UP THE FIRST ONE.
14 THIS IS 30-94.
15 Q AND IF YOU COULD EXPLAIN TO US -- MOST
16 PEOPLE HAVE HAD CELL PHONES. CAN YOU EXPLAIN TO US HOW
17 THIS WORKS?
18 MAYBE WE CAN JUST BLOW UP THE FIRST COUPLE
19 CALLS THERE, WE CAN JUST LOOK AT THAT.
20 A AT THE TOP, THERE'S A LEGEND. THERE'S THE
21 NUMBER BEING -- THERE'S THE NUMBER THAT'S CALLING, THE
22 NUMBER THAT'S BEING DIALED WHERE THERE'S "INCOMING,"
23 "OUTGOING," OR SOMETIMES, IF IT'S A DIFFERENT COMPANY,
24 THE TOWER WILL CREATE ITS OWN PHONE NUMBER FOR IT,
25 WHERE IT'S TALKING ABOUT ROUTED OR INBOUND OR OUTBOUND.
26 START DATE AND TIME, END DATE AND TIME,
27 IT'S MILITARY TIME, SO "13" WOULD BE 1:00 O'CLOCK IN
28 THE P.M. DURATION OF THE CALL IN SECONDS; THE REPOLE

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1 NUMBER, I DON'T KNOW. THE CELL -- THE LAST CELL ARE
2 THE TOWER WHERE IT'S HITTING. I BELIEVE THE REPOLE IS
3 THE SIDE OF THE TOWER.
4 EACH TOWER IS USUALLY IN A TRIANGLE, SO
5 TOWER 4132 WOULD -- YOU'D LOOK UP WHAT TOWER THAT IS,
6 AND IT WILL TELL YOU WHAT AREA THE PHONE WAS IN.
7 Q WERE YOU FOCUSING ON A CERTAIN PERIOD OF
8 TIME FOR THESE CALLS?
9 A YES.
10 Q WHAT PERIOD OF TIME?
11 A JUNE 24TH FROM ABOUT MIDNIGHT UNTIL
12 JUNE 25TH UNTIL ABOUT 3:00 O'CLOCK IN THE AFTERNOON.
13 Q AND DID YOU DETERMINE WHAT -- WHY WERE YOU
14 FOCUSING IN ON THAT TIME? WHY WERE YOU FOCUSING IN
15 THAT TIME?
16 A THE INVESTIGATORS, WE CAME TO THE -- I CAME
17 TO THE CONCLUSION THAT THE -- FOR CRIMINAL LIABILITY,
18 THAT 12 HOURS OF CARE, APPROXIMATE 12 HOURS FROM WHEN
19 HE ARRIVED AT THE HOUSE TO WHEN HE CALLED 911, WAS
20 GERMANE TO OUR CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION, WHERE DR. MURRAY
21 WAS, WHO HE WAS TALKING TO, WHAT HE WAS DOING IN
22 REGARDS TO CARE FOR HIS PATIENT, SO THAT'S WHAT I
23 CONCENTRATED ON.
24 Q DID YOU ALSO GET DR. MURRAY'S PHONE?
25 A YES, WE DID.
26 Q DID YOU SEE E-MAILS BETWEEN DR. MURRAY AND
27 A.E.G. ON HIS PHONE?
28 A YES.

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1 Q NOW, WHAT WAS DR. MURRAY'S PHONE NUMBER?
2 A HE HAD THREE. ONE WAS AREA CODE
3 (702) 809-3747. THE OTHER ONE ENDED IN 09 -- 0 --
4 Q OKAY.
5 A 0780?
6 I HAVE IT IN THE BOOK IF YOU WANT ME TO GET
7 THE FULL PHONE NUMBER.
8 Q WE'LL GET BACK TO THAT.
9 LET'S GO TO 5, DASH, 3100. AT 11:26 A.M.,
10 DR. MURRAY IS MAKING A CALL TO (310) 590-5966?
11 A 9566.
12 Q 5966.
13 DO YOU HAVE AN UNDERSTANDING IF THIS IS --
14 WHAT'S THE NUMBER?
15 A (310) 590-9566.
16 Q OKAY. NOW, THIS CALL WAS MADE AT --
17 ACTUALLY, THIS WAS A RECEIVED CALL, RIGHT?
18 A YES.
19 Q AND THAT WAS RECEIVED AT 11:26 A.M.?
20 A CORRECT.
21 Q DO YOU KNOW WHERE DR. MURRAY WAS AT THAT
22 TIME?
23 A HE WAS AT THE CAROLWOOD ADDRESS.
24 Q DO YOU KNOW WHO MADE THAT CALL?
25 A THE (310) -- I BELIEVE THAT'S MICHAEL --
26 Q DO YOU HAVE A RECORD THAT WOULD INDICATE
27 WHO IT IS?
28 A NOT WITH ME.

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1 Q ALL RIGHT. LET'S -- WE'LL COME BACK TO
2 THAT BECAUSE WE'VE ONLY GOT A FEW MINUTES.
3 LET'S GO TO THE NEXT CALL AT 1308.
4 A I BELIEVE THAT'S MICHAEL AMIR WILLIAMS.
5 Q WE'LL CHECK IT OUT.
6 LET'S LOOK AT 5, DASH, 3100. 1308, THERE'S
7 A CALL THERE.
8 THAT'S DR. MURRAY MAKING A CALL, RIGHT?
9 A YES.
10 Q DO YOU KNOW WHO THAT CALL IS?
11 A (310) 310-8070, THAT WAS NICOLE ALVAREZ.
12 Q WHO IS NICOLE ALVAREZ?
13 A HIS GIRLFRIEND, MISTRESS, PERSON HE WAS
14 LIVING WITH.
15 Q OKAY. AND I NOTICE AT 12 -- 13 -- WHAT
16 TIME IS THAT?
17 A 1308?
18 1:08.
19 Q DO YOU KNOW WHERE DR. MURRAY WAS AT THAT
20 TIME?
21 A HE WAS IN -- HE SHOULD HAVE BEEN IN THE
22 BACK OF THE AMBULANCE.
23 Q AND I WAS -- AND THERE WAS -- I WANT YOU TO
24 ASSUME THERE WAS TESTIMONY FROM ONE OF THE PARAMEDICS
25 THAT DR. MURRAY WAS ON THE PHONE WHILE MR. JACKSON WAS
26 BEING TAKEN TO U.C.L.A. OKAY?
27 A OKAY.
28 Q WOULD THIS BE CONSISTENT WITH THAT

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1 TESTIMONY, THAT HE WAS ON THE PHONE?
2 A YES.
3 Q NOW, IN THIS ONE, IT SHOWS -- IF WE GO
4 OVER, IT SHOWS -- DO YOU KNOW WHAT CELL TOWERS ARE?
5 A YES.
6 Q HOW MANY CELL TOWERS DOES IT SHOW?
7 A IT SHOWS TWO CELL TOWERS, ONE WHERE THE
8 CALL ORIGINATED AND A DIFFERENT ONE WHERE THE CALL
9 ENDED.
10 Q WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
11 A THAT MEANS THAT HE WAS MOVING AT THE TIME,
12 SO IF YOU'RE DRIVING -- MAY I GIVE AN EXAMPLE? IF
13 YOU'RE DRIVING DOWN THE FREEWAY AND YOU START A CALL AT
14 THE 405 ON ONE SIDE OF THE SEPULVEDA PASS, YOU WILL BE
15 HITTING OFF ONE TOWER; AND IF YOU END BY L.A.X., YOU'LL
16 BE HITTING OFF A DIFFERENT TOWER. SO THOSE ARE THE
17 TOWER NUMBERS.
18 Q HOW LONG WAS THE CALL?
19 A 133 SECONDS, SO A LITTLE OVER TWO MINUTES.
20 Q SO YOU JUST DIVIDE THAT BY 60?
21 A YES, SIR.
22 Q SO YOU'VE GOT 120, SO IT WOULD BE TWO
23 MINUTES, 13 SECONDS; IS THAT RIGHT?
24 A YES, SIR.
25 Q DO YOU KNOW WHAT HE WAS TALKING TO HER
26 ABOUT?
27 MS. BINA: OBJECTION; RELEVANCE.
28 THE COURT: OVERRULED.

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1 DO YOU KNOW WHAT HE WAS TALKING TO HER
2 ABOUT? YOU MAY KNOW.
3 THE WITNESS: NOT FOR SURE.
4 THE COURT: DID DR. MURRAY EVER TELL YOU?
5 THE WITNESS: NO, HE DID NOT.
6 THE COURT: OKAY.
7 Q BY MR. PANISH: DID YOU DO ANY
8 INVESTIGATION INTO WHAT HE WAS TALKING TO HER ABOUT,
9 JUST YES OR NO?
10 A YES.
11 Q WHAT INVESTIGATION DID YOU DO TO TRY TO
12 DETERMINE WHAT DR. MURRAY WAS DISCUSSING DURING THAT
13 PHONE CALL? JUST TELL -- WHAT WAS -- JUST THE
14 INVESTIGATION YOU DID.
15 A INTERVIEWED NICOLE ALVAREZ AND DID AN
16 INVESTIGATIVE GRAND JURY ON HER.
17 Q AND WHAT DID YOUR INVESTIGATION CONSIST OF?
18 A ASKING HER QUESTIONS FOR THAT PART.
19 Q FOR THAT PHONE CALL PART?
20 A RIGHT.
21 Q DID YOU GET AN UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT WAS
22 GOING ON AT THAT TIME?
23 A I'M NOT SURE I UNDERSTAND.
24 MR. PANISH: BAD QUESTION.
25 THE COURT: SHE'S GOING TO BE TESTIFYING?
26 MR. PANISH: WE DON'T KNOW IF SHE IS.
27 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.
28 MS. BINA: I DON'T THINK SHE'S ON THE WITNESS

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1 LIST, YOUR HONOR.
2 Q BY MR. PANISH: DID YOU HAVE AN OPINION
3 ABOUT WHAT THE SUBSTANCE OF THAT CALL WAS?
4 A YES.
5 Q WHAT IS IT?
6 MS. BINA: OBJECTION; LACKS FOUNDATION.
7 THE COURT: SUSTAINED.
8 Q BY MR. PANISH: WHAT IS YOUR OPINION BASED
9 ON? DON'T TELL US THE OPINION, JUST THE BASIS, THE
10 FOUNDATION FOR YOUR OPINION.
11 A THE SERVICE OF A SEARCH WARRANT AT HER
12 ADDRESS.
13 Q AND DID THAT INVOLVE RECOVERY OR LACK OF
14 RECOVERY OF EVIDENCE?
15 A YES.
16 Q AND WHAT WAS IT ABOUT -- WITHOUT TELLING US
17 WHAT YOU THINK WAS SAID, WHAT WAS DETERMINED WHEN YOU
18 SERVED THE SEARCH WARRANT?
19 A I FOUND ONE PIECE OF PAPER WITH
20 DR. MURRAY'S NAME ON IT THAT HAD FALLEN BEHIND A DOOR
21 IN A CABINET IN THE ENTIRE APARTMENT THAT HE HAD BEEN
22 STAYING AT FOR TWO MONTHS, AT LEAST TWO MONTHS.
23 Q DID YOU FIND THAT UNUSUAL?
24 A YES.
25 Q WHY?
26 A HE WAS LIVING THERE, AND THERE'S NO -- NONE
27 OF HIS STUFF WAS THERE.
28 Q WHEN DID YOU SERVE THE SEARCH WARRANT?

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1 A END OF AUGUST. AUGUST, I THINK.
2 Q WAS HE STILL LIVING THERE THEN?
3 A I BELIEVE HE WAS BACK IN LAS VEGAS.
4 MR. PANISH: ALL RIGHT. YOUR HONOR, I DON'T WANT
5 TO HOLD UP MR. CHAIDEZ.
6 THE COURT: YES. OKAY. HOLD ON A MINUTE.
7
8 (THE CLERK AND COURT CONFER
9 SOTTO VOCE.)
10
11 THE COURT: 10:00 O'CLOCK TOMORROW. THANK YOU.
12
13 (THE FOLLOWING PROCEEDINGS WERE HELD
14 IN OPEN COURT, OUTSIDE THE PRESENCE
15 OF THE JURORS:)
16
17 THE COURT: OKAY. SO YOU'VE GOT TO COME BACK.
18 THE WITNESS: YES, MA'AM.
19 THE COURT: 10:00 O'CLOCK.
20 THE WITNESS: YES, MA'AM.
21 MR. PANISH: SEE YOU TOMORROW. THANKS.
22 THE COURT: OKAY. LET'S TALK FOR A FEW MINUTES
23 ABOUT THESE DOCUMENTS. MOST OF THEM -- YOU SHOULD GO
24 THROUGH THEM. MOST OF THEM ARE COURT DOCUMENTS. THERE
25 SHOULD BE NO OBJECTION TO THAT.
26 MS. BINA: WE HAVE NO CONCERN ABOUT THE COURT
27 DOCUMENTS, YOUR HONOR.
28 THE COURT: SOME OF THE ONES THAT AREN'T APPEAR

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1 TO BE BUSINESS RECORDS.
2 IS THERE ANY REASON WHY WE NEED TO DRAG
3 CUSTODIANS IN HERE TO LAY OUT --
4 MR. PUTNAM: NO.
5 MR. PANISH: I'LL BRING THEM ALL IN.
6 MS. BINA: YOUR HONOR --
7 THE COURT: DON'T MAKE OFFERS LIKE THAT.
8 MS. BINA: -- THE ONLY ISSUE IS, HONESTLY, WE
9 SORT OF GOT THEM IN A BIG STACK, IT WAS HARD TO TELL
10 WHAT'S WHAT, AND HE HADN'T IDENTIFIED ALL THE PAGES
11 YESTERDAY. I THINK IF WE GET THEM IN ORDER, WE SHOULD
12 BE ABLE TO AVOID THIS SORT OF OBJECTION AND NOT SPEND
13 TIME ON IT.
14 MR. PUTNAM: WE'LL LOOK AT IT BEFORE WE COME BACK
15 TOMORROW, YOUR HONOR.
16 THE COURT: CLEARLY, THERE'S BUSINESS RECORDS IN
17 THERE, STEWART TITLE. A FOUNDATION CAN BE LAID FOR
18 THESE DOCUMENTS, AND DRAGGING IN CUSTODIANS ISN'T GOING
19 TO BE HELPFUL.
20 MR. PUTNAM: WE AGREE, YOUR HONOR.
21 MS. BINA: WE COMPLETELY AGREE, YOUR HONOR. IT'S
22 JUST A MATTER OF SORTING OUT WHAT'S WHAT.
23 THE COURT: COUNSEL PROBABLY SHOULD HAVE SOUGHT A
24 STIPULATION OF SOME SORT.
25 MR. PANISH: THEY WON'T STIPULATE TO ANYTHING.
26 MS. BINA: WE HAVE A STIPULATION AS --
27 MR. PANISH: THEY WON'T EVEN STIPULATE TO HIS
28 DEATH. I'M STILL TRYING TO GET THAT.

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1 MR. PUTNAM: WE ASKED FOR A STIPULATION, YOUR
2 HONOR.
3 MS. BINA: AS TO EVERY BUSINESS RECORD PRODUCED
4 IN THE CASE, AND WE --
5 MR. PANISH: I'M ASKING FOR A STIPULATION THAT
6 MICHAEL JACKSON DIED AND THE CAUSE OF THE DEATH
7 STILL.
8 MR. PUTNAM: ACTUALLY, THAT'S NOT TRUE, SIR.
9 MR. PANISH: I'M ASKING ARE YOU WILLING TO
10 STIPULATE THAT MICHAEL JACKSON DIED?
11 MR. PUTNAM: ABSOLUTELY.
12 MR. PANISH: ARE YOU WILLING TO STIPULATE THE
13 CAUSE OF HIS DEATH WAS DR. MURRAY?
14 MR. PUTNAM: THAT, YOU HAVE NEVER ASKED BEFORE.
15 LET ME LOOK AT WHAT THAT MEANS.
16 MR. PANISH: AND THAT DR. MURRAY WAS NEGLIGENT.
17 THE COURT: COUNSEL, PLEASE. YOU CAN TALK TO
18 EACH OTHER ABOUT STIPULATIONS OUTSIDE MY PRESENCE. ALL
19 I WANTED TO TALK ABOUT CONCERNING STIPULATIONS WAS
20 BUSINESS RECORDS BECAUSE IT'S GOING TO CONSUME A LOT OF
21 TIME AND, CLEARLY, A LOT OF THINGS ARE BUSINESS
22 RECORDS.
23 I'M SURE DEFENDANTS ARE GOING TO HAVE
24 BUSINESS RECORDS THEY WANT TO INTRODUCE AND WE DON'T
25 HAVE TO GO THROUGH THIS BECAUSE PLAINTIFFS' COUNSEL CAN
26 DO THE SAME THING AND OBJECT EVERY -- YOU KNOW, SLOW
27 DOWN THE PROCEEDINGS. I DON'T WANT THAT TO HAPPEN.
28 MS. BINA: YOUR HONOR, WHAT WE PROPOSED, AND WHAT

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1 WE STILL PROPOSE, IS THAT ANYTHING PRODUCED PURSUANT TO
2 A BUSINESS RECORD SUBPOENA OR PRODUCED BY THE L.A.
3 CORONER OR D.A. IN RESPONSE TO A SUBPOENA BE DEEMED
4 AUTHENTIC UNLESS THERE'S SOME SORT OF SIGNIFICANT
5 REASON TO DOUBT ITS AUTHENTICITY, WHICH CAN THEN BE
6 RAISED BY COUNSEL AT THE TIME.
7 THAT'S WHAT WE PROPOSE, AND THAT'S WHAT
8 WE'RE WILLING TO STIPULATE TO.
9 MR. PANISH: SHE JUST STIPULATED TO ALMOST EVERY
10 L.A.P.D. DOCUMENT OBJECTED TO.
11 MS. BINA: EXACTLY.
12 MR. PANISH: SO SHE SAYS ONE THING; BUT THEN IN
13 ACTION, SHE OBJECTS.
14 THE COURT: WELL, IF YOU HAD HAD THIS DISCUSSION
15 EARLIER WE WOULDN'T HAVE HAD THAT SCENARIO.
16 MS. BINA: WE'RE STIPULATING TO AUTHENTICITY, NOT
17 ADMISSIBILITY OR RELEVANCE. IT WAS A DIFFERENT
18 PROPOSED STIPULATION.
19 THE COURT: SO RELEVANCE OBJECTIONS, YOU CAN
20 PRESERVE THOSE; BUT IN TERMS OF AUTHENTICITY AND
21 ADMISSIBILITY -- OR FOUNDATION. I'M SORRY --
22 FOUNDATION AND AUTHENTICITY, IT SEEMS TO ME YOU SHOULD
23 BE ABLE TO STIPULATE TO THAT RELEVANCE -- THEN YOU CAN
24 PRESERVE THOSE OBJECTIONS.
25 MR. PANISH: FIRST OF ALL, THEY HAVE 13,000
26 EXHIBITS. IT'S A LITTLE HARDER FOR ME. I DON'T HAVE
27 THOSE KIND OF NUMBERS OF EXHIBITS. I'VE NEVER SEEN
28 THAT HAPPEN LIKE THAT BEFORE; BUT IF THAT'S THE WAY

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1 IT'S GOING TO BE, THAT'S THE WAY IT'S GOING TO BE.
2 THE COURT: WELL, WE'RE GOING TO TRY TO AVOID
3 THAT.
4 MS. BINA: ACTUALLY, YOUR HONOR, LAST NIGHT WE
5 REALIZED ONE OF PLAINTIFFS' EXHIBITS IS 10,000 PAGES
6 LONG. SO I THINK THEY LUMPED IT IN AS ONE, WHERE WE
7 SEPARATED IT OUT. BUT I THINK WE CAN WORK SOMETHING
8 OUT ON THIS.
9 MR. PUTNAM: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
10 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. THANK YOU. LET'S TAKE A
11 BREAK.
12 MS. BINA: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
13
14 (15-MINUTE RECESS TAKEN.)
15
16 THE COURT: JACKSON VERSUS A.E.G. LIVE, BC445597.
17 OKAY. THERE ARE SOME HOUSEKEEPING THINGS
18 YOU WANTED TO TALK ABOUT?
19 MS. BINA: YES, YOUR HONOR.
20 THE FIRST THING I WANTED TO RAISE IS THAT
21 THERE ARE TWO NON-PARTY WITNESSES, TRAVIS PAYNE AND
22 STACY WALKER, THAT WE HAVE UNDER SUBPOENA. MR. PAYNE
23 IS ALSO ON PLAINTIFFS' WITNESS LIST. AND AN ISSUE HAS
24 COME UP REGARDING THEIR AVAILABILITY, YOUR HONOR.
25 THEY ARE APPARENTLY -- THEY WORK TOGETHER,
26 THEY'RE BOTH CHOREOGRAPHERS. THEY'RE LEAVING THE
27 COUNTRY FOR JAPAN ON MAY 15, AND THEY'RE GOING TO BE
28 GONE FOR TWO MONTHS. NOW, OBVIOUSLY, THERE'S A

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1 POSSIBILITY WE'LL STILL BE HERE IN TWO MONTHS; BUT I'M
2 HOPING WE WON'T BE; AND WE'D LIKE PERMISSION TO CALL
3 THEM OUT OF ORDER.
4 AS OF RIGHT NOW, WE BELIEVE THEY'RE
5 AVAILABLE ON MAY 10TH. THAT'S WHAT I'VE HEARD FROM THE
6 WITNESSES. I'M NOT 100 PERCENT POSITIVE OF THAT, I'M
7 ATTEMPTING TO CONFIRM IT RIGHT NOW. BUT THEY'RE ONLY
8 IN THE COUNTRY FOR ANOTHER 15 DAYS, SO WE'D LIKE THE
9 COURT'S PERMISSION TO CALL THEM OUT OF ORDER.
10 THE COURT: TRAVIS PAYNE -- WHO IS THE OTHER?
11 MS. BINA: STACY WALKER.
12 THE COURT: OKAY. ALL RIGHT.
13 IS THERE ANY REASON WHY THEY SHOULDN'T BE
14 CALLED OUT OF ORDER?
15 MR. BOYLE: DOES MR. PAYNE HAVE AN ATTORNEY?
16 MS. BINA: HE DOES.
17 MR. BOYLE: WHO IS IT?
18 MS. BINA: THE ONE WHO REPRESENTED HIM AT
19 DEPOSITION, MR. PORTER.
20 MR. PANISH: WE'LL CONTACT THEM AND SEE ON THEIR
21 SCHEDULE, AND MAYBE WE'LL CALL HIM AND WE'LL SEE WHAT'S
22 THEIR STATUS.
23 THE COURT: OKAY. SO YOU'LL TRY TO --
24 MR. PANISH: SO WE'LL TALK.
25 MS. BINA: IS YOUR HONOR INCLINED TO LET THEM GO
26 OUT OF ORDER?
27 THE COURT: SURE, IF THEY'RE GOING TO BE GONE FOR
28 TWO MONTHS.

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1 MS. BINA: THEY ARE GOING TO BE GONE FOR TWO
2 MONTHS, YOUR HONOR. AND WE CHECKED TO SEE IF THEY
3 COULD FLY BACK FROM TOKYO, BUT THEY'RE ACTUALLY WORKING
4 SIX DAYS A WEEK WHILE THEY'RE THERE, SO --
5 MR. BOYLE: WE HAVE A THIRD-PARTY WITNESS
6 CONFIRMED FOR MAY 10TH. MAYBE THE FOLLOWING WEEK
7 BEFORE THEY LEAVE WOULD BE A BETTER DATE.
8 MS. BINA: I KNOW THEY WORK TOGETHER, AND THEY'RE
9 TRAVELING BACK AND FORTH BETWEEN HERE AND LAS VEGAS.
10 BUT I'LL CONTACT THE WITNESSES AGAIN AND SEE IF THERE'S
11 ANY DATES AVAILABLE BESIDES MAY 10TH, BUT THAT WAS THE
12 ONLY ONE I WAS GIVEN INITIALLY.
13 THE COURT: SO IT'S A POSSIBILITY FOR DAYS OTHER
14 THAN THE 10TH?
15 MS. BINA: THAT'S WHAT I'M TRY TO CONFIRM, YOUR
16 HONOR. MY UNDERSTANDING IS THEY'RE LITERALLY ON PLANES
17 HALF THE TIME GOING BACK AND FORTH BETWEEN TWO CITIES,
18 BUT MAYBE IT'S NOT AS BAD AS I WAS TOLD, SO I'LL
19 CHECK.
20 THE COURT: ANYTHING ELSE?
21 MS. CAHAN: THE NEXT HOUSEKEEPING MATTER, YOUR
22 HONOR, IS WE'VE GOTTEN A SERIES OF E-MAILS FROM
23 PLAINTIFF SAYING THAT THEY'RE ADDING PEOPLE TO THEIR
24 WITNESS LIST. AT OUR MARCH 21ST HEARING ON MOTIONS IN
25 LIMINE, YOU ESTABLISHED A PROCESS.
26 I'M SORRY. I THINK THAT WAS THE FINAL
27 STATUS CONFERENCE. YOU ESTABLISHED A PROCESS SAYING
28 YOU HAVE TO ASK FOR LEAVE TO AMEND YOUR WITNESS LIST,

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1 AND YOU'LL CONSIDER WHETHER IT'S HELPFUL AND RELEVANT.
2 WE JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY'RE FOLLOWING THIS
3 PROCESS, TO THE EXTENT THAT THEY'RE SEEKING TO AMEND.
4 THE COURT: HOW MANY MORE WITNESSES? I MADE A
5 RULING ON SOME LATE DISCOVERY THAT I THINK YOU ALL GOT.
6 ARE THESE IN ADDITION TO --
7 MS. CAHAN: YES, THERE'S BEEN A COUPLE SINCE
8 THEN.
9 MR. PANISH: TWO. GRACE, ME, SUBJECT TO THE
10 STATEMENT OF DAMAGES EVIDENCE. THAT'S IT. AFTER YOUR
11 RULING, THAT'S IT.
12 MS. CAHAN: I THINK ED WINTERS MIGHT HAVE ALSO
13 BEEN ADDED AFTER --
14 MR. BOYLE: OH, THAT MIGHT HAVE BEEN E-MAILED
15 ABOUT --
16 THE COURT: SOMEBODY NAMED ED WINTERS?
17 MR. PANISH: WE'RE NOT SURE WE'RE GOING TO CALL
18 HIM. HE'S A CORONER'S INVESTIGATOR.
19 THE COURT: PLAINTIFFS' COUNSEL ON THE LIMITED
20 SUBJECT OF STATEMENT OF DAMAGES?
21 MR. PANISH: OR ANYTHING ELSE THEY WANT TO ASK ME
22 ABOUT.
23 THE COURT: NOT "ANYTHING." WE CAN'T GO THAT
24 FAR.
25 MR. PANISH: I'M HAPPY TO ANSWER ANY QUESTIONS.
26 MR. BOYLE: I BELIEVE MS. RAYA WANTED TO ASK
27 MR. PANISH SOME QUESTIONS.
28 THE CLERK: YES.

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1 MS. BINA: WE HAD THIS ISSUE ACTUALLY COME UP,
2 AND I DON'T KNOW IF MR. PANISH IS SERIOUS ABOUT
3 TESTIFYING, BUT WHEN PLAINTIFFS' COUNSEL TESTIFIES AS A
4 WITNESS, IT CAN BE A REASON TO DISQUALIFY PLAINTIFFS'
5 COUNSEL.
6 THE COURT: IT CAN BE, BUT I'VE SEEN IT DONE.
7 MR. PANISH: I'VE DONE IT MYSELF THREE TIMES.
8 MS. BINA: ON THIS LIMITED ISSUE, THE COURT IS
9 INCLINED TO ALLOW IT; BUT WE MAY MAKE A MOTION ON THAT
10 POINT, DEPENDING ON WHAT HE INTENDS TO DO.
11 MS. CAHAN: YOUR HONOR, ALL WE WOULD ASK IS THAT
12 TO THE EXTENT THAT PLAINTIFFS CONTINUE TO WANT TO ADD
13 WITNESSES LIKE MR. WINTERS AND MS. RWARAMBA --
14 THE COURT: I THOUGHT RWARAMBA WAS ALREADY ON.
15 MS. CAHAN: NO.
16 MR. BOYLE: WE COULDN'T FIND HER. BOTH SIDES
17 HAVE BEEN TRYING TO GET HER FOR A LONG TIME. THERE WAS
18 A COURT ORDER, THE COURT JUST ISSUED AN ORDER ABOUT
19 GRACE RWARAMBA. BUT WE'RE GOING TO BE ABLE TO FIND
20 HER, HOPEFULLY; SO WE JUST WANTED TO MAKE SURE THAT WE
21 HAD --
22 MR. PANISH: WE'RE JUST TELLING THEM --
23 MR. BOYLE: WE'LL BRING IT UP WITH THE COURT IF
24 IT'S SOMETHING WE'RE GOING TO DO.
25 THE COURT: IS THIS THE NANNY?
26 MR. BOYLE: CORRECT.
27 MS. CAHAN: YES, WE RECEIVED AN E-MAIL, YOUR
28 HONOR, ON SUNDAY NIGHT SAYING "WE'RE ADDING

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1 GRACE RWARAMBA BACK ONTO PLAINTIFFS' WITNESS LIST."
2 SHE WAS NEVER ON PLAINTIFFS' WITNESS LIST.
3 MR. BOYLE: IF THAT'S THE CASE, THAT'S A MISTAKE.
4 SHE WAS ON OUR DRAFT AND WE COULDN'T FIND HER BEFORE WE
5 FILED IT.
6 MR. PANISH: AS SOON AS WE HAD INFORMATION THAT
7 WE MIGHT BE ABLE TO LOCATE HER, WE IMMEDIATELY ADVISED
8 COUNSEL, SO THAT'S ALL.
9 MS. CAHAN: WE JUST WANT THEM TO FOLLOW THE
10 PROCESS THAT YOUR HONOR ESTABLISHED, THAT THEY HAVE TO
11 MAKE A PROFFER. WE WOULD LIKE THE OPPORTUNITY TO
12 RESPOND. MS. RWARAMBA, I DON'T THINK WE WOULD OPPOSE
13 THE IDEA OF HER COMING IN AND TESTIFYING.
14 WE'D WANT TO DEPOSE HER BEFORE SHE
15 TESTIFIES BECAUSE WE DID MAKE SIGNIFICANT EFFORTS TO
16 TRY TO LOCATE HER, WE ASKED --
17 MR. BOYLE: SO DID WE.
18 MR. PANISH: SO DID WE, AND DISCOVERY IS OVER.
19 MS. CAHAN: CAN I FINISH A SENTENCE?
20 MR. PANISH: SHE WAS IDENTIFIED --
21 MS. CAHAN: MAY I FINISH?
22 MR. PANISH: EXCUSE ME.
23 MS. STRONG: I THOUGHT WE WEREN'T GOING TO BE
24 INTERRUPTING COUNSEL --
25 MR. PANISH: I WAS TALKING --
26 MS. STRONG: -- WHICH WAS THE AGREEMENT
27 YESTERDAY, AND I'M JUST STANDING UP TO SAY THAT BECAUSE
28 THAT WAS DONE IN CONNECTION WITH THE COMMENTS I MADE

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1 YESTERDAY, SO I WOULD LIKE THEM TO RESPECT US IN THE
2 SAME WAY WE ARE GOING TO RESPECT THEM, YOUR HONOR.
3 MR. PANISH: READ RULE 3.93, L.A. SUPERIOR COURT,
4 ONE LAWYER PER ISSUE. I WOULD LIKE THE COURT TO
5 ENFORCE -- YOU ASKED ME YESTERDAY WHAT WAS THE RULE
6 NUMBER. I HAVE IT.
7 THE COURT: LET'S LOOK AT IT.
8 MR. PANISH: LET'S LOOK AT IT. 3.93. WE'LL
9 START WITH THAT ONE.
10 THE COURT: L.A. SUPERIOR COURT?
11 MR. PANISH: YES.
12 MS. CAHAN: AS YOU'RE LOOKING, I'LL READ THE RULE
13 INTO THE RECORD.
14 THE COURT: OKAY.
15 MS. CAHAN: (READING):
16 DURING OPEN COURT
17 PROCEEDINGS, ABSENT UNUSUAL
18 CIRCUMSTANCES, ONLY ONE ATTORNEY FOR
19 A PARTY MAY PERFORM ANY ONE OF THE
20 FOLLOWING FUNCTIONS: SELECT A JURY,
21 DELIVER AN OPENING STATEMENT, DELIVER
22 A FINAL ARGUMENT, EXAMINE ANY
23 PARTICULAR WITNESS, CROSS-EXAMINE ANY
24 PARTICULAR WITNESS, OR ARGUE AN
25 ISSUE.
26 THE COURT: WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH
27 OBJECTIONS? NOTHING. OKAY.
28 MR. PANISH: EXCUSE ME?

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1 THE COURT: IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH OBJECTIONS.
2 THAT WAS THE ISSUE THAT --
3 MR. PANISH: I WAS JUST TALKING ABOUT AN ISSUE,
4 MS. CAHAN WAS ADDRESSING IT, THE OTHER -- STRONG JUMPS
5 IN. THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON. AND I'M GETTING THE
6 AUTHORITY ON THE ONE WITNESS AND ONE LAWYER THAT DOES
7 THE WITNESS OBJECTS. I'VE NEVER SEEN IT, I DON'T KNOW
8 A SITTING JUDGE IN SUPERIOR COURT --
9 THE COURT: I'VE SEEN IT.
10 MR. PANISH: IN SUPERIOR COURT? THIS COURT?
11 THE COURT: I'VE SEEN IT IN FEDERAL COURT.
12 MR. PANISH: WELL, NO. LOS ANGELES SUPERIOR
13 COURT, I'VE NEVER SEEN IT. AND I'VE ASKED NUMEROUS
14 JUDGES. BUT YOU'RE MAKING THE RULES. I WANTED TO BE
15 CLEAR THAT YOU'VE ALLOWED ANY ONE OF ALL THEIR
16 ATTORNEYS TO OBJECT EVEN IF THEY'RE NOT HANDLING THE
17 WITNESS, THAT'S ALL.
18 MS. CAHAN: YOUR HONOR, AS I WAS SAYING BEFORE I
19 WAS INTERRUPTED, WE WERE TRYING TO GET CONTACT
20 INFORMATION FROM MS. RWARAMBA CONSISTENTLY THROUGHOUT
21 DISCOVERY. WE ASKED FOR HER PHONE NUMBER. ONE OF THE
22 WITNESSES IN A DEPOSITION HAD HER PHONE NUMBER, SAID HE
23 WASN'T SURE HE WAS COMFORTABLE GIVING OUT A PHONE
24 NUMBER.
25 WE CHECKED WITH PLAINTIFFS' COUNSEL AFTER
26 THE DEPOSITION ABOUT WHETHER WE COULD HAVE THAT PHONE
27 NUMBER BECAUSE HE WANTED TO, I THINK, CONFIRM WITH
28 MS. RWARAMBA FIRST. THEY NEVER GOT BACK TO US. SO

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1 IT'S NOT AS THOUGH WE WEREN'T DILIGENTLY PURSUING
2 TRYING TO FIND HER AND TRYING TO TAKE HER DEPOSITION.
3 SO IN HER CASE, WE WOULD NOT OBJECT TO HER
4 TAKING THE STAND AND TESTIFYING; BUT WE'D LIKE A
5 DEPOSITION FIRST. BUT GOING -- ON A GOING-FORWARD
6 BASIS, WE THINK THAT IT'S ONLY APPROPRIATE THAT THEY BE
7 REQUIRED TO MAKE THE PROFFER TO THE COURT THAT YOUR
8 HONOR -- THE PROCESS THAT YOUR HONOR ESTABLISHED BACK
9 IN MARCH.
10 THE COURT: OKAY. LET'S GO THROUGH ED WINTERS --
11 I KNOW WHAT PLAINTIFFS' COUNSEL IS GOING TO TESTIFY
12 ABOUT. WHAT ABOUT ED WINTERS?
13 MR. BOYLE: HE WAS -- HE WAS AT THE CORONER'S
14 OFFICE. I DON'T BELIEVE WE'RE GOING TO NEED
15 MR. WINTERS, BUT WHEN WE WERE --
16 THE COURT: LET'S SAY YOU DO. WHAT HE WOULD SAY?
17 MR. BOYLE: CORONER THINGS ABOUT
18 MICHAEL JACKSON'S DEATH AND THE CORONER'S
19 INVESTIGATION. WE'RE BRINGING IN MR. ROGERS TOMORROW,
20 WHICH I THINK HE'S GOING TO BE ABLE TO HANDLE ALL OF
21 IT; BUT IF FOR SOME REASON THERE'S SOMETHING HE DOESN'T
22 KNOW THAT MR. WINTERS WOULD KNOW, WE REALIZED WE SHOULD
23 BE SAFE AND PUT MR. WINTERS AS SOON AS WE LEARNED ABOUT
24 MR. WINTERS. THAT'S ALL.
25 THE COURT: SO WINTERS IS A SECONDARY CORONER WHO
26 ASSISTED IN --
27 MR. PANISH: CORONER INVESTIGATOR.
28 MR. BOYLE: CORRECT.

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1 THE COURT: OKAY.
2 WE WERE GOING TO RAISE ALL THESE ADDITIONAL
3 WITNESSES WITH THE COURT. WE JUST E-MAIL THEM AS SOON
4 AS WE KNOW OF THEM SO WE WEREN'T ACCUSED OF DELAYING
5 ANYTHING WITH KNOWLEDGE. THAT'S WHY WE E-MAIL IT.
6 ON THE GRACE RWARAMBA ISSUE, JUST SO THE
7 COURT KNOWS, WE HAD PROCESS SERVERS TRYING TO SERVE
8 HER, AND WE HAVE DECLARATIONS OF PROCESS SERVERS THAT
9 THEY WERE UNSUCCESSFUL. SO WE, TOO, WERE TRYING TO
10 DEPOSE HER.
11 AND DISCOVERY -- DISCOVERY IS OVER, BUT SHE
12 WAS -- SHE WAS DISCLOSED, AND WE E-MAILED THEM AS SOON
13 AS WE REALIZED WE MIGHT BE ABLE TO ACTUALLY LOCATE HER.
14 THE COURT: SO WHAT IS HER TESTIMONY GOING TO BE?
15 LET'S GET TO THAT.
16 MR. PANISH: WE'RE NOT SURE.
17 MR. BOYLE: WE'RE NOT SURE YET, BUT WE'LL LET THE
18 COURT KNOW IF WE'RE GOING TO BE CALLING HER. BUT SHE
19 KNOWS A LOT. SHE WAS AROUND FOR A LOT OF THE STUFF;
20 AND THAT'S WHY THEY WANTED TO DEPOSE HER FOR ALL THIS
21 TIME, AS WELL.
22 THE COURT: WELL, UNLESS SHE CAN BE DEPOSED, SHE
23 WON'T BE CALLED. IF SHE CAN BE DEPOSED --
24 MR. BOYLE: IF WE CAN DEPOSE HER, THEN --
25 THE COURT: IF YOU BOTH CAN DEPOSE HER, YOU CAN
26 HAVE ONE SESSION, YOU BOTH CAN BE THERE.
27 MS. CAHAN: AND IS YOUR HONOR RESERVING RULING ON
28 MR. WINTERS DEPENDING ON WHAT HAPPENS WITH DR. ROGERS

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1 AND MR. ANDERSON, WHO IS THE TOXICOLOGIST WHO THEY'VE
2 ALSO CALLED FROM THE CORONER'S OFFICE FOR NEXT WEEK
3 SOMETIME?
4 THE COURT: WHO IS ANDERSON?
5 MS. CAHAN: HE'S ON THE LIST. THEY TOLD US
6 ORIGINALLY, BEFORE WE HAD THE SCHEDULE PUSH, THAT
7 THURSDAY WAS ROGERS, WHO SIGNED THE ACTUAL CORONER'S
8 REPORT, AND ANDERSON, WHO DID THE TOXICOLOGY. I ASSUME
9 THEY'RE STILL GOING TO CALL MR. ANDERSON.
10 MR. PANISH: THAT'S CORRECT.
11 MS. CAHAN: SO THIS WOULD BE A THIRD WITNESS FROM
12 THE CORONER'S OFFICE.
13 THE COURT: AND YOU DON'T KNOW YET WHAT IT IS
14 THAT WINTERS IS GOING TO SAY?
15 MR. BOYLE: AGAIN, I DON'T THINK WE'RE GOING TO
16 NEED TO CALL HIM; BUT IF WE DO, WE WILL MAKE A PROFFER
17 TO THE COURT, AND THAT'S -- WE'RE NOT EVEN --
18 THE COURT: OKAY. BUT --
19 MR. PANISH: WHAT?
20 THE COURT: OKAY.
21 MR. PANISH: WE LEARNED THAT HE MAY KNOW
22 INFORMATION, WE IMMEDIATELY TOLD THEM.
23 THE COURT: BUT WHAT IS THE INFORMATION THAT YOU
24 THINK YOU MAY --
25 MR. PANISH: HE MIGHT KNOW SOME THINGS ABOUT THE
26 INVESTIGATION THAT THEY MAY OBJECT TO THE OTHER GUY
27 TALKING ABOUT. THAT'S ALL. SO TO BE SAFE, WE TELL
28 THEM. I MEAN, WHAT ARE WE SUPPOSED TO DO, JUST SHOW UP

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1 ON THE DAY OF --
2 THE COURT: WELL, DID WINTERS PREPARE A REPORT
3 THAT COULD BE TURNED OVER TO THEM SO THEY AT LEAST
4 KNOW?
5 MR. PANISH: I DON'T BELIEVE HE DID.
6 MR. BOYLE: I BELIEVE HIS NAME IS ON THE
7 CORONER'S REPORT THAT EVERYONE HAS HAD THE WHOLE
8 TIME.
9 MS. CAHAN: I THINK HE MAY HAVE TESTIFIED AT
10 DR. MURRAY'S CRIMINAL TRIAL. HE'S NOT SOMEONE WHO IS
11 UNKNOWN.
12 THE COURT: SO YOU HAVE HIS TESTIMONY.
13 MS. CAHAN: WE HAVE THE ENTIRE CORONER PRODUCTION
14 THAT WAS MADE IN THIS CASE. WE'RE NOT CLAIMING
15 PREJUDICE.
16 WE'RE JUST ASKING THEM TO FOLLOW THE
17 PROCESS, YOUR HONOR, BECAUSE THEY HAVE 111 WITNESSES AT
18 THIS POINT; AND TO THE EXTENT WE'RE GETTING 48 HOURS'
19 NOTICE AND HAVING TO PREPARE, WE NEED TO KNOW WHO IS
20 ACTUALLY ON THE WITNESS LIST BECAUSE WE HAVE THESE REAL
21 SHORT TURNAROUNDS TO GET READY FOR PEOPLE TO COME
22 TESTIFY.
23 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. I'LL RESERVE ON WINTERS.
24 IT SOUNDS LIKE THE MAIN CORONER WILL BE ABLE TO TESTIFY
25 TO EVERYTHING. IF THERE'S SOMETHING IN PARTICULAR,
26 SOME PARTICULAR FACT THAT --
27 MR. PANISH: THAT'S ALL.
28 THE COURT: -- RAISE IT WITH ME AND I'LL CONSIDER

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1 IT.
2 MS. CAHAN: AND WE, OF COURSE, REMAIN FLEXIBLE.
3 WE'RE NOT TRYING TO KEEP OUT ANY PARTICULAR WITNESSES.
4 WE JUST WANT TO KNOW WHAT'S HAPPENING.
5 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WHAT ELSE?
6 MS. STRONG: WELL, YOUR HONOR, ONE OF THE ISSUES
7 THAT I BELIEVE YOU'D LIKE TO HEAR ARGUMENT ON TODAY IS
8 PLAINTIFFS' MOTION REGARDING COUNTER DESIGNATIONS. YOU
9 SHOULD HAVE BRIEFS FROM BOTH PARTIES AT THIS POINT,
10 YOUR HONOR, IF YOU'VE HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO REVIEW
11 THEM.
12 THE COURT: I HAVEN'T. JUST TELL ME.
13 MS. STRONG: IT'S THEIR MOTION.
14 IT SOUNDS LIKE THEY'RE TRYING TO PRECLUDE
15 DEFENDANTS FROM MAKING ANY COUNTER DESIGNATIONS
16 WHATSOEVER, AND THAT'S CLEARLY NOT PROVIDED --
17 THE COURT: I'D BE SURPRISED, BUT --
18 YOU'RE NOT TRYING TO DO THAT, ARE YOU?
19 MR. PANISH: IT IS OUR MOTION. CAN WE ADDRESS IT
20 OR ARE THEY JUST GOING TO ADDRESS ALL OUR STUFF?
21 MR. BOYLE WILL ADDRESS IT. ONE LAWYER PER
22 ISSUE.
23 MR. BOYLE: YOUR HONOR, I STARTED PREMATURELY ON
24 THIS YESTERDAY, BUT OUR POSITION IS UNDER 2025.620,
25 WHICH WE DESIGNATED A LOT OF TESTIMONY OF A.E.G.
26 EMPLOYEES, A.E.G. EXPERTS, WHICH WE'RE PERMITTED TO
27 DO --
28 THE COURT: YES.

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1 MR. BOYLE: -- THAT WE -- WE, BASED ON THE ORDER
2 OF PROOF, WANT TO PLAY THE PORTIONS IN OUR CASE IN
3 CHIEF THAT WE WANT TO PLAY, WHICH 2025.620(C) SAYS THAT
4 WE CAN -- WE CAN PLAY ANY PORTION FOR ANY PURPOSE.
5 NOW, IF WE DO THAT, THAT TRIGGERS
6 2025.620(E), WHICH SAYS ANY OTHER PARTY CAN THEN USE
7 THAT AS A RIGHT, BUT THEY HAVE TO DO THAT IN THEIR CASE
8 IN CHIEF, NOT IN OUR CASE IN CHIEF.
9 SO, FOR EXAMPLE --
10 THE COURT: DOES THE RULE SAY THAT? BECAUSE I
11 KNOW I'VE HAD PLENTY OF TRIALS WHERE YOU GET THAT
12 WITNESS UP THERE AND ALL THE TESTIMONY COMES IN ALL AT
13 ONCE. VERY DISJOINTED TO DO IT OTHERWISE.
14 BECAUSE WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN IS WE'RE
15 GOING TO DESIGNATE ONE PERSON -- PERHAPS YOUR VIDEO
16 PERSON TO CUT AND PASTE AND PUT IT ALL TOGETHER, SO
17 IT'S BEST JUST TO PLAY ALL THE DESIGNATIONS AT ONCE.
18 MR. BOYLE: YOUR HONOR, I AGREE -- WHEN A WITNESS
19 IS UNAVAILABLE AND THEY'RE APPEARING ONLY BY VIDEO
20 TESTIMONY, THAT'S HOW IT'S GENERALLY DONE. BUT WHEN
21 YOU'RE DOING THE ADVERSE PARTY WITNESSES, LIKE WE ARE,
22 WE CAN PLAY ANY PORTION FOR ANY PURPOSE.
23 WE COULD PLAY -- WE COULD PLAY -- IF WE
24 WANT TO PLAY ONE MINUTE, FOR EXAMPLE -- SAY WE WANT TO
25 JUST PLAY ONE MINUTE. THAT WOULDN'T THEN ALLOW THEM
26 TO, IN OUR CASE, PLAY THE ADDITIONAL 3.5 HOURS. FOR
27 EXAMPLE, THEY HAVE -- WE DESIGNATED --
28 THE COURT: YOU MEAN WHEN YOU'RE PLAYING FOR

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1 IMPEACHMENT? IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE SAYING? WHEN YOU'RE
2 PLAYING BECAUSE YOU HAVE SOME IMPEACHMENT, OR YOU'RE
3 TALKING ABOUT CALLING THEM 776, AND YOU'RE JUST --
4 MR. PANISH: RIGHT.
5 MR. BOYLE: CORRECT. WE AGREE THEY CAN, IN THEIR
6 CASE -- IF THEY WANT TO PLAY SOME OTHER PORTION,
7 THEY'RE ALLOWED TO DO THAT UNDER THIS SECTION, BUT THEY
8 CAN'T DISRUPT OUR ORDER OF PROOF. THAT'S NOT OKAY.
9 MS. STRONG: YOUR HONOR --
10 MR. PANISH: CAN I SAY SOMETHING OR NOT?
11 MS. STRONG: I DON'T KNOW. IS IT TWO LAWYERS PER
12 SIDE OR ONE, MR. PANISH?
13 MR. PANISH: I GUESS NOT, BECAUSE YOU JUST HAD
14 THREE. I GUESS IT ISN'T.
15 THE COURT: GO AHEAD.
16 MR. PANISH: AND I'M GOING TO ADDRESS THE COURT,
17 NOT COUNSEL.
18 IN A TRIAL, PLAINTIFF HAS THE BURDEN OF
19 PROOF. 776 IS ONE METHOD UNDER WHICH I CAN EXAMINE
20 WITNESSES. THE CODE WAS ENACTED FOR THE PURPOSE OF
21 ALLOWING ADVERSE TESTIMONY FROM A DEPO TO BE USED.
22 SO, FOR EXAMPLE, IF PLAINTIFF WANTS TO PUT
23 ON THINGS THAT THEY THINK ARE CROSS-EXAMINATION,
24 IMPEACHMENT, ADVERSE TESTIMONY TO THE DEFENDANT, THAT'S
25 FINE. WHEN THE DEFENDANT THEN WOULD CALL THE
26 WITNESS -- ALL THESE WITNESSES, THEY CAN CALL LIVE; BUT
27 IF THEY THEN WANT TO PLAY PART OF THE TESTIMONY THAT
28 THEY THINK COUNTERS IT OUT, THAT'S FINE IN THEIR CASE,

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1 BUT NOT IN THE MIDDLE OF US EXAMINING THE WITNESS.
2 AND WHAT THEY'VE DONE IS DESIGNATE ALL
3 THESE PORTIONS OF THE TESTIMONY THAT THEY THINK
4 COUNTERACT WHAT WE'RE SAYING DURING OUR EXAMINATION.
5 NOW, IF THE WITNESS IS UNAVAILABLE AND FOR SOME REASON
6 IT'S BETTER TO PLAY A LITTLE PORTION THERE TO MAKE IT
7 IN SEQUENCE, THAT'S ONE THING, LIKE AN OUT-OF-STATE
8 WITNESS.
9 AND THAT'S HOW, USUALLY, IT GOES; ALTHOUGH
10 NOT TOTALLY BECAUSE THE PLAINTIFF EXAM AND THE DEFENSE
11 EXAM -- PLAINTIFF EXAM WILL GO, AND THEN DEFENSE EXAM
12 AT THE SAME TIME.
13 THE COURT: RIGHT, CROSS AND REDIRECT.
14 MR. PANISH: RIGHT. OKAY. THAT'S FINE. WE --
15 IF THE WITNESS ISN'T COMING LIVE. BUT IF THE WITNESS
16 IS A PARTY, AGENT, MANAGING AGENT OR DEFENDANT OR PARTY
17 AT THE TIME OF THE DEPOSITION, IS THE TEST, THEN THE
18 PLAINTIFF HAS THAT RIGHT, AND THAT'S WHAT THE
19 LEGISLATURE INTENDED BY .620 AND THE PREDECESSOR OF
20 THAT UNDER 2025.
21 AND IT'S ALWAYS BEEN THE CASE THAT THE
22 PLAINTIFF GOES FIRST, THE PLAINTIFF PUTS ON THE
23 TESTIMONY. IF THEY THEN WANT TO PUT IT IN, THEY EITHER
24 CAN DO IT BY LIVE WITNESS OR BY PLAYING THE PORTION --
25 BECAUSE IT IS HEARSAY FOR THE DEFENDANT TO PLAY IT; BUT
26 BECAUSE WE HAVE BEEN ALLOWED TO DO IT IN OUR CASE, THEN
27 THEY CAN DO IT IN THEIR CASE, EVEN THOUGH THE WITNESS
28 IS AVAILABLE.

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1 WE DON'T HAVE TO SHOW UNAVAILABILITY UNDER
2 2250. THEY WOULD HAVE TO SHOW THAT TO USE ONE OF THEIR
3 PERSON'S DEPOSITIONS UNLESS THEY PUT IT IN THEIR CASE
4 IN RESPONSE TO .620. AND THAT IS WHAT WE'RE TRYING TO
5 DO. THAT'S HOW TRIALS PROCEED.
6 IT'S HOW I DID IT IN THE CUTHBERTSON CASE,
7 THAT'S HOW I'VE DONE IT IN EVERY CASE, AND NOW WHAT
8 THEY WANT TO DO IS CHANGE IT. AND SO WE'RE ASKED --
9 YOU KNOW, SOME TESTIMONY, THEN THEY WANT TO PUT THEIRS
10 IN THERE, THEN WE HAVE SOME MORE, AND THEY WANT TO PUT
11 THEIRS IN THE MIDDLE.
12 AND THAT BASICALLY GUTS THE PURPOSE OF 776
13 AND THE PLAINTIFFS' RIGHT AND ORDER OF PROOF. AND
14 THAT'S THE ISSUE.
15 MS. STRONG: YOUR HONOR, THAT IS ACTUALLY NOT HOW
16 A TRIAL WORKS. YOU DON'T GET TO PUT A WITNESS ON THE
17 STAND AND THEN EXAMINE -- HAVE ONE SIDE EXAMINE THE
18 WITNESS AND THEN SEND THE WITNESS AWAY. THAT'S NOT HOW
19 IT WORKS. IT'S A DIRECT EXAMINATION AND THEN A
20 CROSS-EXAMINATION WITHIN SCOPE.
21 AND SO, OF COURSE, YOUR HONOR, WE ARE
22 PERMITTED TO COUNTER DESIGNATE ANYTHING WITHIN SCOPE,
23 BECAUSE THAT IS THE ORDERLY PROCESS FOR EXAMINATIONS.
24 THE COURT: THAT'S TRUE.
25 NOT IF THERE IS IMPEACHMENT PLAYING. IF
26 THEY'RE PLAYING SOMETHING FOR IMPEACHMENT PURPOSES,
27 THEN YOU DON'T HAVE A RIGHT TO COME BACK AND DESIGNATE
28 AN HOUR'S WORTH OF TESTIMONY IN CONNECTION WITH THAT.

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1 YOU HAVE TO WAIT FOR YOUR CASE TO --
2 MS. STRONG: RIGHT.
3 BUT WHEN YOU'RE DEALING WITH IMPEACHMENT,
4 YOUR HONOR, YOU DON'T GO THROUGH THE DESIGNATION
5 PROCESS. IF YOU'RE GOING TO DESIGNATE TO INTRODUCE
6 TESTIMONY BY VIDEO INTO EVIDENCE, THEN YOU FOLLOW THE
7 PROTOCOL OF COUNTER DESIGNATIONS WITHIN SCOPE AND
8 PROCEED IN THAT MANNER, YOUR HONOR.
9 SO IT'S -- IT'S EXTRAORDINARY THAT THEY'RE
10 TRYING TO SUGGEST THE ORDINARY PROCESS IS TO ALLOW THE
11 WITNESS TO TAKE THE STAND, ESSENTIALLY, BY VIDEO AND
12 THEN SEND THEM AWAY WITHOUT ANYTHING. THAT'S WHAT
13 WE'RE ASKING FOR, YOUR HONOR, IS THINGS THAT ARE
14 RELEVANT TO WHAT THEY'VE DESIGNATED SO THAT THE JURY IS
15 NOT MISLED BY THE TESTIMONY.
16 AND IF YOU LOOK AT THE COUNTER
17 DESIGNATIONS, THAT'S THE INTENT, IS TO PICK UP THOSE
18 PORTIONS OF THE TESTIMONY THAT RELATE AND FULLY EXPLAIN
19 THE WITNESSES' POSITION SO THAT THE JURY IS NOT MISLED.
20 THE COURT: OKAY. SO WE'LL DO IT THAT WAY.
21 MR. BOYLE: WELL, YOUR HONOR, FOR EXAMPLE, YOU
22 KNOW, FOR -- FOR PAUL GONGAWARE, THEY DESIGNATED
23 25 MINUTES; FOR RANDY PHILLIPS, THEY DESIGNATED
24 31 MINUTES. I MEAN, THAT'S JUST PUTTING -- THAT'S THEM
25 TRYING TO PUT THEIR CASE ON IN OUR CASE. THEY'RE NOT
26 OBJECTING --
27 THE COURT: WELL, WHAT YOU DO IS YOU OBJECT TO
28 THEIRS. IF IT'S OUTSIDE THE SCOPE, OR SOMETHING LIKE

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1 THAT, THEN YOU MAKE YOUR OBJECTIONS, I'LL RULE ON THEM,
2 AND THEN I'LL DECIDE WHAT'S GOING TO BE PLAYED. SO IF
3 IT'S 25 MINUTES, AND 15 MINUTES IS OUTSIDE THE SCOPE OR
4 IRRELEVANT OR WHATEVER, THEN MAKE YOUR OBJECTIONS AND
5 I'LL RULE ON THEM.
6 MS. STRONG: YOUR HONOR, WITH RESPECT TO PROCESS,
7 WE DID SUBMIT TO YOU THIS MORNING -- TO THE COURT THIS
8 MORNING -- WE FILED, AND I HAVE COURTESY COPIES THAT I
9 CAN PROVIDE TO YOUR HONOR, THE FIRST EIGHT SETS OF
10 DESIGNATIONS.
11 SO THESE CHARTS HAVE PLAINTIFFS'
12 DESIGNATIONS BY PAGE AND LINE NUMBER, DEFENDANTS'
13 COUNTERS BY PAGE AND LINE NUMBER, DEFENDANTS'
14 OBJECTIONS TO PLAINTIFFS' DESIGNATIONS, AND IT ALSO
15 INCLUDES PLAINTIFFS' OBJECTIONS TO DEFENDANTS' COUNTER
16 DESIGNATIONS.
17 AND THEN THERE'S A SPOT FOR "SUSTAINED" AND
18 "OVERRULED" FOR YOU TO MARK ON THE CHART. I UNDERSTAND
19 THAT PLAINTIFFS' COUNSEL HAS BROUGHT WITH THEM THE
20 DEPOSITIONS, I BELIEVE. YOU MIGHT WANT TO INQUIRE OF
21 PLAINTIFFS' COUNSEL, BECAUSE I DON'T THINK RIGHT NOW
22 YOU'VE GOT THE TRANSCRIPTS, AND YOU ASKED US NOT TO
23 INCLUDE THE TEXT IN THE CHARTS, SO I DID NOT DO THAT.
24 THE COURT: RIGHT. JUST LODGE THE DEPOSITIONS.
25 MR. PANISH: BEFORE YOU GO DOING THIS WHOLE
26 PROCESS, IN LIGHT OF WHAT YOU JUST SAID, WHICH IS
27 CONTRARY TO ANY TRIAL I'VE EVER BEEN IN, WE MAY WANT TO
28 CHANGE --

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1 THE COURT: YOU DON'T DO ASBESTOS TRIALS.
2 MR. PANISH: I HAVE DONE ASBESTOS TRIALS BACK IN
3 THE '80'S, YES, AND JOHNS MANSVILLE LITIGATION LONG
4 BEFORE -- ANYWAY, I'VE BEEN INVOLVED IN ASBESTOS
5 LITIGATION, AND I KNOW HOW IT GOES, AND I KNOW HOW THE
6 TRIALS GO.
7 BUT -- WELL, YOU SAID THAT TO ME. YOU
8 DON'T KNOW WHAT I'VE DONE. BUT, ANYWAY --
9 THE COURT: I CAN TELL YOU WHAT I'VE DONE, AND
10 I'VE DONE A LOT OF ASBESTOS TRIALS, AND THAT'S HOW IT
11 WORKS.
12 MR. PANISH: WELL, THIS IS NOT AN ASBESTOS TRIAL,
13 SO -- NUMBER 1. NUMBER 2, ALL I WAS TRYING TO SAY
14 BEFORE YOU MADE THAT COMMENT THAT I HAVEN'T DONE
15 SOMETHING THAT YOU REALLY DIDN'T HAVE A FOUNDATION TO
16 SAY --
17 THE COURT: COUNSEL, I'M NOT SAYING ANYTHING --
18 I'M NOT SAYING ANYTHING ABOUT YOU. I'M JUST LETTING
19 YOU KNOW THAT MY EXPERIENCE AND WHAT WE'VE DONE IN THIS
20 COURTROOM IS HANDLE THAT IN THAT MANNER, AND WHAT YOU
21 ARE SUGGESTING IS OUTSIDE THE ORDINARY COURSE OF WHAT'S
22 NORMALLY DONE. THAT'S ALL I'M SAYING.
23 I UNDERSTAND YOU HAVE A POSITION, AND I'M
24 WILLING TO LISTEN TO IT.
25 MR. PANISH: YOU -- YOU HEARD MY POSITION. I
26 WASN'T TRYING TO SAY THAT AT ALL. YOU DIDN'T LET ME
27 FINISH.
28 WHAT I WAS SAYING IS BEFORE YOU GO AND READ

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1 ALL THOSE TRANSCRIPTS, SINCE YOU'VE MADE THIS RULING,
2 WE MIGHT WANT TO CHANGE OUR DESIGNATIONS.
3 THE COURT: OKAY.
4 MR. PANISH: SO I WAS TRYING TO SAVE THE COURT
5 THE TIME OF WASTING READING ALL OF THIS -- OKAY? --
6 BEFORE --
7 THE COURT: THAT WOULD BE HELPFUL.
8 MR. PANISH: I WAS TRYING TO DO THAT BEFORE YOU
9 SAID TO ME THAT I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT ASBESTOS
10 CASES. SO I WAS TRYING TO SAVE YOU THE EFFORT OF GOING
11 THROUGH AND READING EVERYTHING WHERE WE MIGHT NOW
12 CHANGE BECAUSE YOU'VE MADE THIS RULING.
13 I WASN'T REARGUING THE RULING; I WAS
14 SAYING, "OKAY. THAT'S YOUR RULING. I DON'T AGREE WITH
15 IT, BUT THAT'S YOUR RULING." I WASN'T REARGUING IT.
16 WHAT I WAS TRYING TO DO IS SAVE YOU THE TIME; AND, YOU
17 KNOW, THAT'S ALL I WAS TRYING TO DO.
18 THE COURT: OKAY. WELL, THEN TAKE IT BACK AND
19 LOOK AT IT AND IF IT REWORKS IT, GREAT. I HAVE LESS TO
20 DO.
21 MR. PANISH: WELL, THAT'S ALL I WAS TRYING TO SAY
22 BEFORE WE GOT INTO THIS ASBESTOS --
23 THE COURT: SO YOU NEED TO CONSULT --
24 MS. STRONG: ARE WE GOING TO START FROM THE
25 BEGINNING? THERE HAVE BEEN, I THINK, APPROXIMATELY
26 20 WITNESSES THAT THEY'VE ALREADY DESIGNATED FOR, YOUR
27 HONOR; SO IF WE'RE GOING TO -- ARE WE STARTING FROM THE
28 BEGINNING AND CHANGING ALL? CHANGING ONLY PART OF THE

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1 WITNESSES?
2 THE COURT: I DON'T KNOW.
3 MR. PANISH: WE DON'T KNOW. WE HAVE TO GO BACK
4 TO LOOK AT IT. YOU'VE MADE A RULING THAT WAS CONTRARY
5 TO WHAT WE THOUGHT, BUT OKAY. NOW WE HAVE TO ADJUST --
6 IF YOU WANT TO GO READ THEM AND RULE AND THEN --
7 THE COURT: NO.
8 MR. PANISH: THAT'S WHAT I WAS TRYING TO DO. I
9 KNOW THERE IS A LOT GOING ON FOR THE COURT. ALL I WAS
10 TRYING TO DO IS MAKE IT A LITTLE EASIER FOR THE COURT
11 IN LIGHT OF YOUR RULING.
12 THE COURT: WHY DON'T YOU TAKE YOUR CHART, GIVE
13 IT TO PLAINTIFFS' COUNSEL, THEY CAN LOOK AT IT, AND
14 MAYBE THEY CAN CUT OUT SOME OF THEIR DESIGNATIONS.
15 MR. PANISH: THAT'S ALL I WAS SAYING.
16 THE COURT: SO I WON'T ADDRESS THIS NOW. SOUNDS
17 LIKE YOU CAN MEET AND CONFER AND COME BACK AND MODIFY
18 IT AND GIVE YOUR CHART TO ME.
19 WHEN DO YOU THINK YOU CAN HAVE THAT DONE SO
20 THAT THEY CAN --
21 MR. PANISH: OBVIOUSLY, WE'RE NOT GOING TO DO ALL
22 20 RIGHT AWAY. WE'LL TRY TO PRIORITIZE THE ONES AND DO
23 IT THAT WAY.
24 THE COURT: LIKE A WEEK? TEN DAYS?
25 MR. PANISH: WE CAN GET SOME IN SOON, YOU KNOW.
26 WE WANT TO GET THEM IN SOON, THE ONES THAT WE WANT TO
27 PLAY IN THE ORDER THAT WE WANT TO DO IT. BUT, YOU
28 KNOW, OBVIOUSLY --

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1 THE COURT: OKAY. SO I'LL GIVE YOU A DATE.
2 HOW ABOUT SEVEN DAYS, OR TEN DAYS?
3 MAY 13TH.
4 MS. STRONG: WHAT IS IT BY MAY 13TH, YOUR HONOR?
5 THE COURT: THE REVISED DESIGNATIONS.
6 MS. STRONG: AND THEN WE'LL HAVE TIME AFTER THAT,
7 A FEW DAYS, TO DO REVISED COUNTERS, AND THEN OBJECTIONS
8 AND SO FORTH?
9 MR. BOYLE: YOUR HONOR, THE PREVIOUS PROTOCOL WAS
10 WE DO THIS FIVE DAYS BEFORE WE PLAY THINGS.
11 THE COURT: YEAH, BUT YOU WANT THE OPPORTUNITY
12 NOW TO GO THROUGH ALL OF THEM AND REVISE ALL OF THEM.
13 UNLESS YOU HAVE SPECIFIC ONES YOU WANT TO TELL ME ABOUT
14 NOW, WE CAN LIMIT IT TO THAT; BUT IF YOU WANT TO GO
15 BACK AND REVISE ALL OF THEM, IT'S GOING TO TAKE A
16 LITTLE MORE TIME.
17 MR. PANISH: WHY DON'T WE SAY WITHIN FIVE DAYS,
18 WE GIVE YOU THE FIRST FIVE.
19 MR. BOYLE: THAT'S FINE, YOUR HONOR. WE'LL --
20 MAY 13TH IS FINE.
21 MS. STRONG: AND ALL I ASK, YOUR HONOR, THAT WE
22 HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY -- WHATEVER -- WHENEVER THEY --
23 OBVIOUSLY, THEY CAN'T PLAY ANY VIDEOS UNTIL WE GO
24 THROUGH THIS PROCESS, ANY DEPOSITION TESTIMONY, SO I
25 WOULD JUST ASK THAT THERE BE AN OPPORTUNITY FOR US TO
26 REVIEW, OBVIOUSLY, THE COUNTER DESIGNATIONS, OBJECT AND
27 COUNTER, AND GO THROUGH THAT PROCESS.
28 THE COURT: SO IF THEY'RE GETTING YOU THEIR

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1 REVISED BY MAY 13TH, LET ME GIVE YOU --
2 MR. PANISH: IF WE GIVE IT TO THEM EARLIER, YOU
3 KNOW, CAN THEY JUST RESPOND IN THE SAME AMOUNT OF TIME?
4 MS. STRONG: YOUR HONOR, WE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN
5 WILLING TO ABIDE BY THE PROTOCOL THAT WE PROPOSED.
6 PLAINTIFFS TO THIS DAY HAVE NOT AGREED TO THE PROTOCOL.
7 THAT'S ONE ISSUE THAT I WANTED TO RAISE WITH YOU.
8 I'VE TRIED TO WRITE IT UP, WHAT WE'VE
9 DISCUSSED HERE IN COURT, AND PROVIDED IT TO THEM
10 SEVERAL TIMES, TRIED TO REVISE IT, AND IN LIGHT OF
11 ADDITIONAL DISCUSSIONS IN COURT, AND HAVE NEVER HAD A
12 SUBSTANTIVE RESPONSE TO IT OTHER THAN TO SAY THEY'RE
13 NOT AGREEING.
14 THE COURT: WHAT WE'RE GOING TO DO IS YOU REDUCE
15 THIS TO WRITING AND WE'LL MAKE IT A COURT ORDER, I'LL
16 SIGN IT.
17 MS. STRONG: WITH RESPECT TO THE DESIGNATIONS?
18 THE COURT: CORRECT.
19 MS. STRONG: BECAUSE WE HAD A TRIAL PROTOCOL THAT
20 ADDRESSED THINGS LIKE NOTICE, SHARING DEMONSTRATIVES,
21 ALL OF THE THINGS --
22 THE COURT: IF YOU'RE NOT HAVING A PROBLEM WITH
23 IT, I DON'T NEED TO SEE IT.
24 MS. STRONG: OKAY.
25 THE COURT: IF YOU'RE HAVING A PROBLEM, THEN
26 PROVIDE A PROPOSED ORDER IN WRITING.
27 MR. PANISH: THE PROTOCOL WAS, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT
28 WE WERE NOT GOING TO EXCHANGE PAPER COPIES OF THE

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1 EXHIBITS. AND YESTERDAY, THERE BECAME AN ISSUE WITH
2 THAT. SO, YOU KNOW, THINGS CHANGE.
3 THE COURT: THEY DO. YOU'VE GOT TO BE
4 FLEXIBLE.
5 MR. PANISH: THEY'RE TRYING TO RUSH IN HERE AND
6 GET A COURT ORDER ON EVERYTHING WHEN THINGS ARE
7 CHANGING. THAT'S ALL. AND I TOLD MS. STRONG, YOU
8 KNOW, I HAVE A FEW THINGS GOING ON THAT I WAS DEALING
9 WITH, LIKE WITNESSES AND STUFF.
10 THE COURT: OKAY. SO THE COUNTER DESIGNATIONS BY
11 MAY 20TH, THEN -- OKAY? -- AND OBJECTIONS.
12 MS. STRONG: SO DESIGNATIONS BY MAY 13TH,
13 COUNTERS BY MAY 20TH?
14 MR. PANISH: YOUR HONOR, WE MIGHT WANT TO -- CAN
15 WE DO SOME SOONER? I MEAN, WE --
16 THE COURT: WORK IT OUT. I'M GOING TO GIVE YOU
17 THE DROP-DEAD DEADLINE. YOU WORK IT OUT WITH THEM IF
18 YOU CAN DO IT SOONER, BUT THESE ARE SORT OF THE
19 DROP-DEAD DEADLINES. SO MAY 13TH, MAY 20TH.
20 DO WE HAVE ANY OTHERS WE NEED TO DO AFTER
21 THAT?
22 MS. STRONG: USUALLY THE WAY -- THEY WOULD
23 DESIGNATE BY MAY 13TH, WE COULD OBJECT AND COUNTER BY
24 MAY 20TH, YOUR HONOR, THEY WOULD HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO
25 OBJECT TO OUR COUNTERS, AND WE WOULD SUBMIT THEM TO
26 YOU.
27 THE COURT: OKAY. SO AFTER THE 20TH -- THERE'S A
28 HOLIDAY RIGHT AFTER THAT, SO -- HOW ABOUT THE 28TH,

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1 MAY 28TH? OKAY?
2 BUT IF YOU CAN WORK OUT SOMETHING BEFORE
3 THAT, THAT WOULD BE IDEAL.
4 MS. STRONG: THANK YOU.
5 SO YOU CAN, I GUESS, IGNORE THE FILING
6 WE'VE SUBMITTED TO YOU THIS MORNING. THERE'S LOTS OF
7 DESIGNATION FILINGS.
8 MR. BOYLE: SOME OF THESE, WE'RE JUST GOING TO GO
9 WITH WHAT'S ALREADY BEEN FILED. WE'LL TELL THE COURT
10 AND LODGE THOSE DEPOSITIONS.
11 THE COURT: YOU'RE STILL GOING TO DO THE CHARTS,
12 RIGHT?
13 MS. STRONG: YOU'VE GOTTEN THE CHARTS FOR EIGHT
14 TODAY; SO IF THEY STAND BY THE DESIGNATIONS AND THE
15 COUNTERS, YOU CAN RELY UPON THOSE.
16 THE COURT: WHAT I'M SAYING, WHAT THEY REVISE, I
17 STILL WANT ONE PARTY TO TAKE CONTROL OF IT, AND --
18 MS. STRONG: YES, YOUR HONOR, OF COURSE. WE'LL
19 DO THAT.
20 THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. WHAT ELSE?
21 MR. BOYLE: I DON'T BELIEVE THERE'S ANYTHING
22 ELSE.
23 MS. BINA: NOTHING, YOUR HONOR.
24 THE COURT: OKAY.
25 MR. BOYLE: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
26 MS. BINA: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
27 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO THURSDAY,
28 MAY 2, 2013, AT 10:00 A.M.)

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