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DISCLAIMER Except for the marked redactions for FOIA withholding, this transcript has not been edited

or otherwise reviewed for accuracy by participants or the NRC. It may contain typographical mistakes or other transcription errors.

Official Transcript of Proceedings NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION

Title:

Japan's Fukushima Daiichi ET Audio File

Docket Number:

(n/a)

Location:

(telephone conversations)

Date:

Wednesday, March 16, 2011

Work Order No.:

NRC-944

Pages 1-457

NEAL R. GROSS AND CO., INC. Court Reporters and Transcribers 1323 Rhode Island Avenue, N.W. Washington, D.C. 20005 (202) 234-4433

1 1 UNITED STATES OF AMERICA NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION

2 3 4 5

JAPAN'S FUKUSHIMA DAIICHI ET AUDIO FILE


+ ++++

WEDNESDAY

7 8 6 9 10 11 12 13 1 15 16
17

MARCH 16,

2011

18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25.

NEAL R.GROSS
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS
14 3 OALnc ICl AkIn A%/X N W

2 (CONFERENCE CALL INITIATED) 2 3 4 DAN Executive Team. DORMAN: You're talking to the

about

*(phonetic):

Yes,

this

is

fl%

(phonetic) with the U.S. DAN DORMAN: Joe,

Embassy, Tokyo. this is Dan Dorman, the

6 7
8

Director of the Executive Team. How are you doing? Tony also has asked me to give you a call three turbines to make that are available. the purchases We need to them

9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 for t(phonetic) m USAID, so information

get approval here.

and airlift

DAN

DORMAN:

Yes,

we

have

written

request from TEPCO for up to seven, that General Electric has

but we understand three of them,

identified

that they are available, transport.

and we just need to arrange

DAN DORMAN:

Okay.

Have they already been

purchased or does USAID need to purchase them? I have not had any

about purchasing.

They are

just

looking

for us to transport them. MALE PARTICIPANT: Yes, USAID was looking

to send a request back to that they could get them on a military

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3 1 2 3 transport and get them over them. I don't think there It

was any discussion as far as money changing hands. was just getting-4 f transport, there has got Well, if it is

a military

to be a mission assignment

associated with it. 7 8


9

MALE PARTICIPANT: to take care of that.

Yes,

and USAID is

going

E
equipment --

There's

assignment

for

the

IC 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

MALE PARTICIPANT: Fellows, I request I'll am 0 So, if fellows, m

That's correct. let's cut this short. and I do the then

Deputy, this is

for MILAIR.

just a list,

go ahead and get that started. Is there a point of contact there where I

can have someone call from the military to get weight and dims and the location to pick up? MALE PARTICIPANT: (Pause.) MALE PARTICIPANT: Hang on a second.

Okay,m uh-hun. I'm going to. give you a is embedded with USAID I

Yes,

MALE PARTICIPANT: phone here, number for our guy who

and he'll connect you to Pat Longi (phonetic) NEALR.GROSS

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4 think wi-th GE,

who is

going to get you the specs.

okay.
So, the phone number is

MALE PARTICIPANT:

MALE PARTICIPANT:

--

MALE PARTICIPANT: 14 F miniOkay. MALE PARTICIPANT: 11 17 12 18 16C 13 to Jeff Colwaltick (phonetic), Washington. Okay. And he should be able And that would get you who is NRC embedded

with USAID here in

C ( C

19 14
20 15 16 17? 18 19 20C 21 22 23 24 25 Okay, that specs. * Pat Electric, is

MALE PARTICIPANT:

to connect you with Pat Long to get those specs. And Pat Long is that correct? MALE Long is PARTICIPANT: with USAID Our here, understanding but he has is the with General

Oh,

Pat Long has the specs?

I've got it. MALE PARTICIPANT: Yes. Okay. e'll W go

All right.

ahead and get this going for you guys.

Thanks.

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5 1 2 MALE Appreciate it. = 0 Uh-hum. Bye-bye. PARTICIPANT: Thanks,

E 7

S 1C 11 12 13 14 1E 1.E

19 2C 21 22 23 24 2E

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6 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2 (phonetic). That's not consistent with the list that going to smaller b
with --

(CONFERENCE CALL INITIATED) MALE PARTICIPANT:


we've been talking

We're just sitting here


withI and

about these GE turbines. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: (inaudible), Yes. And, you know, after

has been talking thinking here is,

what we are kind of

I mean,

these are massive engines. They've got to

I mean we are talking 200 tons here. C5 them over here. the airport.

And they're going to get them into

They'll probably come into Yokota. And, then, the question I mean, is, what are we

going to do with them?

heavy lifters;

we've

got to make sure the roads are good. I mean, did GE and TEPCO talk about minimum

equipment,

thinking,

you

know,

equipment need complements, pumps and stuff?

you know,

a couple of RHR

These have got to be 5-megawatt, be 5-megawatt generators. I

these are mean these

things are massive. MALE PARTICIPANT: This is Monty

we had worked out originally, right? NEAL R.GROSS


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7 1 2 3 portables, MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: Right. Right. We were looking at

positive (inaudible,

possibly "displacement

compressors") 6 7 8 9 1
1

(inaudible) powered compressors. What do they hope to do with these

railroad engines? MALE PARTICIPANT: trying to figure out, Actually, Hey right, for sir. Well, that's what we're

We don't really know.

wait one, please. that's a hard number, I mean, you got 200 tons, that from

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 2 25

these things?

the source? MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE hard number PARTICIPANT: the size of (inaudible). Yes, these that's a pretty And,

about

things.

apparently, per C5.

you know,

basically,

they're one generator

And that's a pretty massive engine. MALE PARTICIPANT: the nuclear power I know. plant Are or are they they

thinking

about

thinking about supplying power without power in MALE about of. that. Because, that region? PARTICIPANT:

to the people

that are

Well, I

I'm

not

sure

That's

a good question you know,

hadn't

thought

apparently,

I'm talking to the

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8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2Q 21 22 23 24 25 Bye-bye. AID folks here.


--

The AID folks are telling me that the sir, I need to sir. go and talk to the

actually,

Ambassador.

I apologize,

I'm sorry about that. Excuse me. Fine. All right.

The Ambassador wants to see us. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT:

Okay.

Sorry.

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9 1
2 (CONFERENCE CALL INITIATED) MALE PARTICIPANT: Hey, how you doing?

3 4 5 6 7-

MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: Hey, important being i Dan, an

Okay. Good,

How are you? good. you, the most

update

for

910

12

m*

12-

14
15

mmu

17

18-

19-U---21

22
23

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10

1~
3 4 5 6
7
--

MALE

PARTICIPANT:

Okay.

don't

know

really where we're headed with it, MALE PARTICIPANT:


we watched TEPCO executives

though. I'm
that

Well,
say

just

trying
have

they

8 9 10 1 12 13 14 15 16 17

evacuated the site. MALE PARTICIPANT: And yesterday we

watched TEPCO executives say that the Unit 2 wet well was no longer intact, that it was. So, and by the afternoon they said

you know, we have been dealing with

conflicting information from those folks for a while. You know, if I don't doubt you. And, I mean,

I was a gambling man, So,

I know where I would put my

chips.

I agree with you.

18***
20 21

Itm

2223

*3NEAL R. GROSS
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25lll/I/

24

19W% 94.44kI

11

-m-

-nmmm

- -mm-

-m--

-mmU- -m

101

11
12 13 14

mm

1E
17-

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-m
I

--

22 22

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Ml

m -

mm,eMON

K>

rnln-nMALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: Yes, Yes, Okay.

-lmlnnn

-n
I agree with that. we've got to go.

LIN

111 mom Mm*m

15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

M -N -

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

10 11 12 13 14 15 1 17 1 19 2 21 22 23 24

25
NEAL R. GROSS
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

14 1 2 "And it MALE PARTICIPANT: (Inaudible, possibly

will go to him.") MALE PARTICIPANT: Very well. He'll take

3
4 5 6

care of that for you. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: AMY: Hello. Hello. Thanks, You bet. Jim. Take care.

7
8 9 1 11 12 13 1 1 1 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 So, I'm the

Good luck over there.

MALE PARTICIPANT: AMY: This is Amy. Hi, Team

DAN DORMAN: Executive

Amy.

This is

Dan Dorman. at NRC

Director

here

headquarters. I just wanted to check in. We have a team and most of

of nine folks that are headed over there,

them should have arrived from Heathrow at Norita about five hours ago. AMY: Correct. I have heard from them.

the seven that were on that flight are confirmed And they do have my phone and I told them

here en route to the hotel. number. --

They have already checked in,

one of them clearly is I imagine

very familiar with the area. show up at the Embassy,

So,

that they'll

but I told them to call me if DAN DORMAN: Well,

they had any problems. will you arrange a time

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15 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 2 2 when they (inaudible, AMY: here to convene? possibly "convene together")? sorry, when they get

Arrange time, Is

that what you said? Yes. Once they get there, we

DAN DORMAN:

would like to get on the phone with them. AMY: will be a little the list there's quickly. here. interest Absolutely. Absolutely. hold on. Now it

bit later for --

I've got I know very

I did send out a car because in having Chuck It get here

I haven't heard yet.

takes quite a while So, I haven't heard

between Norita Airport and back. yet that he's en route, So, waiting for is I

but I expect he will be. the only is other one we're

guess

Richard DeVercelly, Yes.

that right?

DAN DORMAN: AMY: Okay.

DAN DORMAN:

Amy,

let me tell you what I'd

like you to do for us then. AMY: DAN Okay. DORMAN: Once Chuck is checked into bit, with

his hotel room and changed, what I would like to do is

freshened up a little convene a meeting

Chuck and the team members in your offices, can talk to them by phone. AMY: Okay. NEAL R.GROSS
(202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701

so that we

www nealrgross.com

16

1
2 for us,

DAN DORMAN:

So,

if

you could set that up

that would be really helpful. AMY: Sure. Absolutely. And give us a little Chuck you then, has landed establish and a bit of he's time in for

3
4 heads-up Tokyo, 7 8 9 1 11 12 13 14
1

DAN DORMAN: as to, once

maybe,

then, and,

could

that meeting,

we could be here on this end

and ready to receive his call. AMY: information? Definitely. Can I get your contact but just in case.

I'm sure he has it, DAN DORMAN: AMY: Uh-huh.


--

It's

area code 301 --

DAN DORMAN:

816 --

AMY:

816.
--

DAN DORMAN:

5100.

1 17 1 19 2 2 22 23 24 2 let me see if then, here. get I Operations

AMY: DAN

5100. DORMAN: That then, will get you our to

Officer and,

ask to be connected

the Executive Team. AMY: Executive Team. Okay, great. So,

I can find out if sense

he's en route now and, he's going be to get at the

a better wouldn't

of when that

anticipate

he'll

hotel before 3:30 p.m. DAN

Tokyo time. Right, right. So, that's

DORMAN:

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17 five o'clock maybe Tokyo time we could have that phone 2 3 as well, 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 1 16 17 18 19
20

call? AMY: Exactly. That's what I was thinking a little bit of leeway

which would give us

for traffic and whatnot, factor.

which is

the big determining

But let me get a better idea. Can I also-email you to confirm? Would

that work?
DAN DORMAN: ET07
--

AMY: DAN et07.hoc@nrc.gov. AMY:

ET07. DORMAN: .hoc@nrc.gov. So,

Okay,

et07.hoc@nrc.gov? Yes. I will be in touch. And let

DAN DORMAN: AMY: Okay.

me give you my BlackBerry number and email as well. DAN DORMAN: AMY: So, Okay.

the BlackBerry number is Yes.


-

DAN DORMAN: AMY:


--

21 22 23 2 2 A-S-I-N-K,

DAN DORMAN:
AMY: -I"

Yes.

DAN DORMAN: AMY: Correct. And my email is asink, so

@ofda.gov. NEAL R.GROSS


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18 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 touch. DAN DORMAN: AMY: Thanks, Amy. Bye-bye. in Frank,


@ofda.gov?

DAN

DORMAN:

So,

asink,

A-S-I-N-K,

ANY: ofda.gov.

Yes,

just

to confirm,

it's

O-F,

as

DAN DORMAN: AMY:

O-F,

as in Frank,

D-A.gov?

Correct. Got it. great. Then, I will be in

DAN DORMAN: AMY: Okay,

All right.

Thanks.

14

16 17

18
19 20

21
22 23 24

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19 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 you? CHUCK CASTO: DAN 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 hours ago to E DORMAN: I'm great. We sent a current over a couple on of Dorman. CHUCK CASTO: DAN DORMAN: Hey, Dan, how you doing? How are (CONFERENCE CALL INITIATED) DAN DORMAN: you there, Chuck? CHUCK CASTO: DAN DORMAN: This is Hey, Chuck. Chuck, this is Dan Good afternoon, Chuck. Are

I'm doing all right.

10

one-pager at

NRC'S

understanding Daiichi

of

conditions

Fukushima Have

(inaudible,

possibly "Nuclear Center").

you seen that? CHUCK CASTO: were just meeting withW gotten to that yet. DAN understanding that. I is DORMAN: still Okay. pretty All much right. Our with to be I haven't seen it yet. We

a moment ago,

but we hadn't

consistent continues

guess our biggest challenge

getting reliable information from (inaudible, "staff")

possibly

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22

10 1~ 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 .2 21 22 23 24 25 we have a is ahead. DAN DORMAN: question Okay. that's One of the areas that very important to 4. our The I'm CHUCK CASTO: DAN DORMAN: CHUCK CASTO: Yes. But one of the things that Well, go ahead. No,
--

go

assessment

the current

condition at Unit

media continues to report on the fire at Unit 4.

looking at an MSNBC blurb right now that says that it involves the outer shell of the containment building. We've been assuming that it pool. And so, involves the fuel in the

any clarification we can get as to the may pose to

root of that fire and any threat that it the fuel in the pool is one important area.

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CHUCK CASTO: DAN DORMAN: since we sent that

Yes. One other thing we've gotten, we got a at report Unit 5, from and

one-pager,

IAEA regarding it's

the decreasing

level

not specific as to whether it's vessel or the spent-fuel

talking about the pool, but it does

pressure

say that at that time it a five-hour period, over the of fuel

was a 47-meter decrease over gives the amount of water of that being

and it

remaining.

And extrapolation would have

weight

decreasing

level

fuel

uncovered about five hours from now at Unit 5. But it also reported diesel that they would be for Unit 6 to

using an operational

generator

provide water to Unit 5. information to us, that

And that was a new piece of there was an operational

diesel generator. CHUCK CASTO: Yes, I had heard that

Daiichi they had evacuated out 10 kilometers. DAN kilometers is DORMAN: Daiene was evacuated 10

our understanding.

Daiichi,

which is

the stricken plant,

was evacuated to 20 kilometers -Right.


-and was sheltering out to

CHUCK CASTO:
DAN DORMAN:

24 25

30 kilometers. CHUCK CASTO: Yes.

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.

22 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 piece, earlier. DAN DORMAN: we had had some were And, then, I guess the other with that Jim all Trapp the

conversation media reports

There

workers had been evacuated from the site. understanding they were are is that they remain at the

Our current site, but

evacuated

from the

four damaged units and dose limits to perform

available

with emergency

actions as needed. On that one-pager, it says we understand

1 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

that all the staff have been evacuated from the site. We've tempered that a little bit. and the terms of

Those are some of the challenges current things that we're looking at in

information needs. CHUCK CASTO: we can get. Well, we'll get you whatever

You know how information is. DAN DORMAN: CHUCK CASTO: Yes. But who's with you? Is it

just you? DAN DORMAN: first Lewis, brought you up, Chris Miller, Yes. No, it was when we Rob

but I've got Marty Virgilio, Tom Blount, and some

other

supporting staff in

the room here. Yes, get. NEAL R.GROSS we'll get you whatever As you know, the

CHUCK CASTO: information we can

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23 communications channels are very limited. DAN DORMAN: I Yes.

12

4 1C 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 say that, is CHUCK CASTO: Right. And, also, I would

from what I've gotten from the Embassy here, who I haven't talked to yet, but,

the Ambassador,

you know, over here.

they're worried about the 170,000 Americans That's their primary goal. NEAL R. GROSS
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

They're here

24

1 2 3 4 5 6 7

to protect them. DAN DORMAN: CHUCK CASTO: you know, think, if Right. And that's their focus. So, I

we're here to support the Ambassador, that's got to be our focus. VIRGILIO: clearly, Yes, when we Chuck, think this about

you know, MARTY

is our

Marty.

mean, that is

8
9 i 1i 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

priorities, down, Japan

the top priority that we've listed in is

as we have outlined what are our objectives right now. And, clearly, the top priority

support to the Ambassador and the U.S. I would say in second the is support for

citizens there. the Japanese And,

Government then,

recovery of

these reactors.

third is

gathering

insights and lessons learned

for us,

so that we can assess the implications for our

operating fleet and applicants. CHUCK CASTO: MARTY those terms. CHUCK CASTO: Right. Just to switch subjects a Jim Trapp's request, to get are you being access we to Absolutely. So, Right. about it in

VIRGILIO:

think

MARTY VIRGILIO: little bit, at Jim's request, with INPO to

have worked daily or

try

periodic

meetings. that

conducted

between WANO and TEPCO.

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27

MARTY VIRGILIO: 3 CHUCK CASTO:

Okay.

Does that make any sense? Yes. Chuck, this is Dan, Dan. but let

MARTY VIRGILIO: DAN DORMAN: 6 7 8 9 1 know, Yes.

MARTY VIRGILIO: me make one last point. By trying to do it information across

I'm sorry,

through the media, something, that

you is

CNN or

just causing a whipsaw over here.

11 12
13-*

*-

--

muIU-K

15 16 17 18 19
20

MARTY VIRGILIO: could come up with a bounding, okay, what is maybe


--

Yes,

and I

think if

you

you know, analysis of, but what is a

not

worst-case,

likely outcome

2 22 23 24 25

MALE

PARTICIPANT:

Well,

the

one-pager

that you have attached to, pager that was sent to

the attachment

to the oneof hours

a couple

ago has a dose projection for the current wind for a dirt fire with a release of half of the spent-fuel

NEAL R. GROSS
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS
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28

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pool at Unit 4. But, say the shell as I said, we are seeing reports that of the building is burning, not the

spent-fuel pool. MALE PARTICIPANT: Yes, I think that we've the next -is if kind of

got to project at the next level of event, you know, what we are doing right now okay,

reacting true, maybe

to what we hear and saying, here is the outcome.

that's got to

then

But

we've

think one or

two steps ahead,

and that way we

could keep more stable on our recommendations. DAN DORMAN: last 24 hours pool, and the big Well, items and have I think over the Unit 4

been

that

spent-fuel where Jim

and there was a period 24 hours ago Tony were telling us that in their Unit

assessment was that we had X vessel material 2. And that was driving us 24 hours ago. CHUCK CASTO: trying to say, you know, just Dan. If Right.

And that's what I'm to that, we in

we keep responding or, you know, zirc

to the anecdotal -there's a

what if fire

assume. that

(phonetic)

that spent-fuel

pool?

What's

the source-term of, you know,

there? whether the

And what would be the outcome there is or isn't a fire, if

there was,

what's

outcome? NEALR.GROSS
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29
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 that DAN DORMAN: attachment out don't is to If there was, we would which you're what you've got be is, recommending obviously, that a

that

evacuations lot -I

50 miles, that

know

aware

what Twenty It's

they're -kilometers

I guess we already talked about it. is what they've currently evacuated.

about 12 miles.

10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 reacting here; CHUCK to -CASTO: Yes, the only thing I'm

and I hope we're just having a dialog so

I'm just trying to have a dialog with us all,

we can get aligned.

18
19 20

mmm

21
22 23 24 2 But whatever we can do, just think about

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30 1 2 3
4

whatever we can do to stabilize our path here. MALE PARTICIPANT: Well, Chuck, at this

point we're really looking


-

for you to help direct us

CHUCK CASTO:

Right.
--

6
7

MALE PARTICIPANT: what are your needs, doing -CHUCK CASTO: MALE projections. I mean, that you got is, Right.

you know,

based on

what do you think we ought to be

8
9

1
11 12 13 14 15 1 17

PARTICIPANT:

--

in

terms

of

those

the other piece of that document you know, looking ahead and

assuming,

assuming that we lose Reactor 2,

what will be the dose

consequences of release from Unit 2? CHUCK CASTO: MALE project ahead


--

Yes. So, we're trying to

PARTICIPANT:

18
19 2C 21 22 23 24 25

CHUCK CASTO:

Right. -and do what you're

MALE PARTICIPANT: suggesting. CHUCK perfect. I CASTO: Yes,

and

think

that's

think you can go to the Prime Minister or "Look, we don't know if but if you do, you're here is

the Ambassador and say, going to

lose Unit 2 or not,

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31 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 11 1 13 1 1 1 17 with you. leave it how hear know, figure whipsaw, they're the outcome." MALE PARTICIPANT: we have given you in And that's what we hope

that piece of paper. Yes. other us Yes, and I don't know when but, and they you I'll

CHUCK CASTO: getting and the

anecdotal, over up there, here,

something we're

running getting But,

just

stood

that out.

you know,

what's causing that

but I would rather give the bounding scenario and move to something more

and some likely scenarios stable. But, anyhow,

I just wanted to air that out I'll

That was just my initial impression. at that.

1 2 2 21 22 23 24 CHUCK CASTO:

25
NEAL R. GROSS
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1202) 234-4433 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

32 MALE weren't. bullets of PARTICIPANT: No, we heard they

And what we did is


--

we put together a set of

CHUCK CASTO: MALE

Yes.
--

PARTICIPANT:

CHUCK CASTO:

I'm sorry

--

MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO:

Go ahead. Marty. I meant

I'm sorry,

MALE PARTICIPANT: heard, we heard something that

Oh. is

Yes,

well,

what we

kind of halfway in

between, hearing.

and this may be the same thing that you're We heard at the :111" a
--

KS>

CHUCK CASTO:

Absolutely,

and we'll work

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33 1 2 3 work 5 look, with on that and see what the holdup is MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: the Ambassador Yes. I can there.

And that's something and, you know, say,

"Hey,

this is

important to get a more precise estimate

of where we're going with the Americans." 7 8 MALE PARTICIPANT: that we sent toe Yes, and we have a We could send it

-document

to you.

Are you --

10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 All right. was in so, I'll

CHUCK CASTO:

I'll

get it

fromo And

the conference room just as I walked out. get it MALE from 01 PARTICIPANT: Okay. Sounds

good.

And

until

you

te

us

otherwise,

we'll

continue to send things t* CHUCK CASTO:

fl
Yes,

email address. and I think we should room certainly conference all Then, that. you

be stood up with a working conference by morning our time. room So, know, now with eventually,

They're wiring that and internet and

computers

we'll have

access

to it.

we can cc all of us. MALE PARTICIPANT: Okay. So, I think for

right now let's

just check. a

Did we send this to aDC of pieces of paper we

There's

couple

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34
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 about And this probably ought to send you via latest you Operations a Center status which one is update. have We'll been our send

also

two-pager

which would

titled,

"NRC Talking Points". CHUCK CASTO: MALE dose Okay. We've we've been sent just talking tocon? talking

PARTICIPANT: assessment is what that

the

other piece

Chris was

about,

the one-pager on why we nee So, there are four things that I would

11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2 21 22 23 24 25

like you to make sure you have -CHUCK CASTO: MALE background. CHUCK CASTO: be, Right, right. And we should Yes, I'll
--

do it. just for your

PARTICIPANT:

we're just about all here.

We have one member of in. And, then,

the group I think coming in we have a conference room. dosimeters. We have TLDs.

soon or is

And we have KI. So, we're in

We have good shape

with team protection,

that kind of stuff.

And the Embassy has been really good about getting us supplies and printers and all that. So,

there's been outstanding support. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: NEALR.GROSS


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Good,

good. I'm

Just as an aside,

35 personally a little 2 worried about Jim and Tony and the

hours that they've been working. CHUCK CASTO: some crew rest. MALE PARTICIPANT: Yes, yes. Yes, we've got to get them

3
4

6
7 8 9 IC 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20
21

CHUCK CASTO:

And we've got to figure that we've

out for everybody because we can't all start -all flown over here. 24 hours. the team, So,

We can't all start and just work

one of the things in my organization of

I've got to figure who I can get crew rest and out people. MARTY VIRGILIO: Yes. I okay? personally want

and cycle in

to work the hours you're working, CHUCK CASTO: Right.

MARTY VIRGILIO: and I'll

That's why I'm here now,

shift to adjust to be with you. CHUCK CASTO: Okay. to And, you Marty, just in the WHO

case,

know but

can can I

get get

through your

(phonetic),

your

cell,

personal

cell phone number?


MARTY VIRGILIO: Sure.

22
23

CHUCK CASTO:

All right.
---

MARTY VIRGILIO:

24
25

CHUCK CASTO:

Okay.
--

MARTY VIRGILIO:

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36

1
2 3
4

CHUCK CASTO: MARTY VIRGILIO: talked,


floor --

All right. Bill Borchardt and I have

and so I sort of left my role back on the 17th

5
6

CHUCK CASTO:
MARTY

Right.
-and I'm here to

VIRGILIO:

7 8 9 10 1i 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 2 25

support you. CHUCK CASTO: Well, and I do want to get a then, get them to the

briefing from Jim and Tony and, hotel, and they can be part of I'm sure I'll

the second shift that work for quite some I'm

we -- I'm fine now. time.

But I do need to worry about crew rest.

going to take the duplication that in each of that. MALE assume that PARTICIPANT: going to half,

that we have and split

and we'll just work to allow shifts for that we have, something like

the disciplines

Okay. try to

I'm work

going the

to

you're

days,

daytime in Japan. CHUCK CASTO: Yes. That is probably where

MALE PARTICIPANT: you would be most effective. CHUCK CASTO: Marty on midnight shift. (Laughter.) NEAL R. GROSS Yes.

Hey,

get

to

put

That's great.

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

37 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 MARTY VIRGILIO: the alternative. CHUCK CASTO: Yes. I could be there and you That's okay. I recognize

MARTY VIRGILIO: could be here. (Laughter.)

9S

10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2 2 2 23 24 2 helpful. great. CHUCK We'll CASTO: just do And a so, that right would to be the priorities, eventually, MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: So, Right. I think I got the And we

and I will convey that to the team. I think what we're at thinking least is that

would keep a live connection,

for a while, when

right to the Ops Center from our conference room, we get it stood up. So,

we would establish a bridge

to the conference room. MALE PARTICIPANT: Okay. That would be

bridge

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38
I

conference room. Yes, hopefully, we are getting information I don't know if we are

2 3 4

from the back door from WANO ---

out of those meetings that they're having. MALE PARTICIPANT: If you're not, let me

know and we'll use

7
8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 don't know

CHUCK CASTO: if you all

Yes. have

I mean, been

if

you

--

I
any

getting

information out the back door. MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: No. No. be a if way, if we

That may

can't actually get a seat at the table, be willing or we find it acceptable

they would to get the

information out the back door -MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: feeding us, and give us CNN. LE PARTICIPANT: Yes a reed. -Yes, yes. and get them they call us than watching

16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

from WANO,

after they leave the meeting, a briefing, that's better

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39 CHUCK Marty, 3 if CASTO: Well, and I don't know,

you want to think about having an executive you know, the federal

call with IAEA and INPO and DOE, family plus INPO or WANO, bit. Maybe us closer

and just strategize a little between there the is industry and what

connections knowledge

6 7 8 9 1 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

and

and pool

what

resources there are. MALE PARTICIPANT: door for us today, opened that something

and, as a matter of fact, he has made

for you to consider:

the offer to send

somebody over there to work for you. CHUCK CASTO: a good idea. MALE then, tomorrow
--

I actually think that that's

PARTICIPANT:

I'll

close

with

CHUCK CASTO:

Yes. -or later today. there's knowledge I a lot that of we all

MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK industry could resource and CASTO: out I there

think and

harvest,

rather

than --

mean we're

smart people, can get and

but the more eyes on the thing that we the experience, you know, tell particularly you the other in Reactor you

from our Mark 1 sources -place, Safety Marty. Course, You know, that 800

and I'll

the Perspectives course and

that NUREG,

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40 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 lengthy, walks models know, I don't know but it if is you all have been dead-on. I mean looking at it follows in and

that or not,

this event dead-on. that NUREG. You

Everything that's going on is right down through it

can walk

see all the considerations. And MELCORE, MAAP, all those computer

can be brought Lab.

to bear on this So, to hook in

from the Lab, the National

from the National Lab, NEL,

to do some modeling --

and I don't know if

we have time for that -these hundred, scenarios, well, you

but they've already run all know, MAAP, and there's a

not a hundred.

I'm sorry.

There are a modeled

number of

computer models

that

have already

this event for BWR Mark 1 containment. And I read the whole NUREG, on my flight over here. all these events which is quite

And that thing just So, if we

down

perfectly.

don't have that in briefed on it, course helpful. And, to come or if

the Ops Center and people are not we have an instructor for the 800 the Ops Center, that would be

into

then,

look at the references you know, the

in

that

NUREG and those core codes, got codes that will model

because they've core in the

molten

drywell. NEALR. GROSS


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41 MALE PARTICIPANT: You know, Pete Lyons in And to

DOE has been just itching to find a niche here. 3 4 if there's some specific scenario you want INEL

run, just let us know and we can reach out to Pete. CHUCK CASTO: I would just ask for their know, they've that got can all run it the this for of

6 7 8 9 10 1i 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2 2 2 23 24 2

recommendations. science. event, Peach sites. And, out, They that Bottom.

You have run

these this

codes event.

have

They

ran

They ran

this

event

for a number

you know,

you may just want to reach to reach out and ask them are based on MELCORE, and I but have

and we may just want

what their recommendations don't know, there's a

I can't remember all those code names, lot of different ones. Do they

recommendations about the crust that forms and keeping water on it, and keeping the right pH, And, you know, if all that stuff.

we end up with a molten

core and then you talk about the time for the concrete to disassociate, you know, that NUREG says it's a

couple of inches an hour, that Mark 1 containment containments we have, is

you know. the worst it's

And,

of course, the

one of all

and

literally,

you know,

this NUREG tells you that in going to lose containment.

a station blackout you're There's no doubt about it.

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42 1 2 that is -is But, anyhow, I just would highlight that NUREG. Perspectives that

a valuable resource, it It 6150, CR-6150,

I think it's on Nuclear It's

Safety?

completely walks all of It's

this down.

already been thought out. 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 1 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 priority, That's ask do is tell looked at, modeled, So,

already been reviewed,

everything.

the one thing the NUREG doesn't really to stop it, how to mitigate it,

you how

other than keeping water on it. But the Lab may have some recommendations. MALE PARTICIPANT: the next shift working on that, Lyons. CHUCK CASTO: Yes. Yes. So, I would have Right. So, we'll get

to engage through Pete

somebody from WANO join us to open up that line. MALE an action PARTICIPANT: Yes, we'll shift, follow up. too. And

item for the next

INPO

to identify somebody

to come over and join

your team. CHUCK CASTO: And, then, get WANO to brief

us out the back door out of those meetings. MALE PARTICIPANT: going to try to get you in CHUCK CASTO: in Yes. Well, first, I'm

the meetings. Yes, the EOC. well,

Okay? yes, that's a

and get us

I mean,

you know,

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43 that would be the ideal. MALE PARTICIPANT: sure I can do. Yes, that one I'm not

MALE the people, yes.

PARTICIPANT:

The

equipment

is

and

CHUCK CASTO:

Yes. But I'm not sure where.


--

MALE PARTICIPANT:

We think they're at the air base CHUCK something. MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: CASTO:

FERMAC

(phonetic)

or

Yokota maybe. I was talking

I'm sorry,

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44

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2Q
2

here.

I'm sorry.

Go ahead. They may at the Yokota

MALE PARTICIPANT: Air Base. CHUCK CASTO: it's Allen, right? MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: me he's part of, Yes, a Yes,

and it's,

basically --

It's

Allen.

Allen was just telling little is. mini-FERMAC or

basically, what it

something, need.

I think is

And that's what we

And, team over FERMAC, come. so here, that

also, our

you know, team,

we need to get this up with DOE in a

hooked

we can get those readings

when they

When they start coming in, they start coming in,

whenever we get them then they can feed

flying and

that information to our team.

And we're going to need

somebody who can analyze that information and help us independently recommendations. MALE PARTICIPANT: know, ideally, your role, it, See, if this is you can why, get you the verify protective action

22 23 24

Ambassador of the U.S.

to endorse Government

would be to coordinate all or at least be on

activities,

some sort of a pivot point for this. CHUCK CASTO: Right. Right. Yes. See,

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45 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2 2 22 23 24 25 in here; like ASAP. CHUCK CASTO: Okay. I've got we need to


--

we

need

the

fed and,

family, then,

you

know, in

the

fed I

family keep and

organization, wanting to say

bringing

WANO.

"INPO".

But get WANO plugged in

get the National Labs plugged in. MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: that's already been Yes. I think, given hate to keep

Particularly, and I

modeled,

repeating myself, modeled,

but given

that that's

already been

I've got to believe that the Lab can give us

some information. MALE PARTICIPANT: an action item for next shift. CHUCK CASTO: Okay. We'll get, yes, we'll And we'll get that as

MALE PARTICIPANT:

get somebody from INPO to come on over and join you. And that will be the link to the U.S. industry and

their capability. CHUCK CASTO: Right, right. But, somehow,

1 need to

talk

to you guys

the Special Assistant to the Ambassador needs

to see me here. MALE PARTICIPANT: NEAL R.GROSS


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Before you

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46 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 1 12 13 14 1 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Japan. CHUCK CASTO: MALE Okay. And DTRA is just exactly. but I'm I Defense pumps go, let me make you quickly aware of one other item. CHUCK CASTO: Okay. About 30 hours ago, made available the four

MALE PARTICIPANT: Threat Reduction

Agency

that are three hours by ground from the plant, As of

1200 to 1800 gallons per minute up to 150 psi. about four hours ago,

the work from DTRA was those are

sitting on the dock waiting for TEPCO to pick them up. So, they're getting a little frustrated.

They just want to know where to take these things. CHUCK CASTO: Where are they at? Where

are they at right now, MALE

the four pumps? I'm not sure where

PARTICIPANT:

think the folks over in probably in the

the Embassy know, Akoska (phonetic)

thinking

area, but I'm not sure. CHUCK CASTO: MALE Okay. But they're there in

PARTICIPANT:

PARTICIPANT:

waiting for TEPCO to tell them where to take them. CHUCK CASTO: Okay. Well, you know,

there's a lot of other things,

there's a lot of other but I'll worry

assets that need to be brought to bear, NEAL R,GROSS


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47 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1C 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2 21 22 23 2 2 want WANO Team, I got to need a about that down the road. MALE PARTICIPANT: make you aware of it. CHUCK CASTO: batch point, Yes. a I think they're going batch point. I Yes. I just wanted to

concrete

think they're going to need lots of lead. are kind of recovery


could
--

And those but if we

things down the road,

MALE

PARTICIPANT:

But

the

pumps

we're

thinking can help get water where it's CHUCK CASTO: that. But, yes. Yes. Yes. Yes,

needed. No, I got that. also that too,

there's

there's things even further down the road there, that we have to start lining up, to start lining that stuff up. MALE PARTICIPANT: The Reactor

but we just need time

Safety

I was just talking to them, and they're starting You know, based on the TMI experience, I mean there was

to brainstorm.

we had wastewater processing plants. just a whole list of things Yes.


-in

CHUCK CASTO:

MALE PARTICIPANT:

the long-term we

need to start thinking about. CHUCK so CASTO: is And, Exelon Marty, is our the reason I

bad

biggest

BWR

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48 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Reactor We'll that"). CHUCK Safety CASTO: And some the Perspectives after on they works BWRs. for Yes, yes. CHUCK them, CASTO: but Yes, the TMI operator, he of (phonetic), operator, them. and they have ex-TMI operators think George what's working for the guy

And I

his name,

that was -MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK no. MALE CASTO: (Inaudible)? Yes. Not Mortensen

The operator that TMI -PARTICIPANT: Oh, oh, I'm sorry.

they're

our biggest operator

And if

we can,

through WANO, but,

I know WANO wants We need

to be the industry conduit, to get, here you more are. And the you know,

through WANO,

people like Exelon plugged into us some recommendations kinds of from them, The

and be getting know, some

advice,

those

things.

eyes on the task we can get,

the better off we

Reactor

Safety

Team,

would

recommend they take a hard look at that NUREG. MALE (inaudible, PARTICIPANT: possibly "get Yes, we'll to do deal that. with

them

and give us

thoughts

review that. NEAL R.GROSS


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49 MALE PARTICIPANT: 2 3 4 as an action. CHUCK CASTO: Okay. I'm going to go see Okay, we'll take that

this Assistant to the Ambassador and talk with him. MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: you soon. I'll I'll All right. be talking. I'll call

1
6 7

call you back. Thanks. Don't worry. Just do

MALE PARTICIPANT: 9 MALE PARTICIPANT: 1 11 12 13 14 1 what you've got to do. CHUCK CASTO:

All right.

Thank you,

sir.

MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: Yes.

All righty.

16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

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50

I
2 3 4

(CONFERENCE CALL INITIATED) MALE PARTICIPANT: Chuck Casto coming Stand by. up

on the ET conference as the Ops Officer. CHUCK CASTO: I'm here. Hi, Chuck.

MALE PARTICIPANT: 6 7 8 CHUCK conversation was CASTO: to show me a

Hey, letter

that from

little

10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Chuck, I guess, MALE PARTICIPANT: communication from Naval about that. CHUCK CASTO: So, there's another player, You know, we had some tonight all

Reactors earlier

that we need to get coordinated with. MALE PARTICIPANT: Yes, we have been,

early on. MALE PARTICIPANT: NEALR. GROSS


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51 1 2 3 4 you were at the time. the Naval Reactors, You may have been flying. well, one of their ships, But the

Ronald Reagan,

was picking up radiation -Right, right. -a hundred miles

CHUCK CASTO: MALE offshore.

PARTICIPANT:

And we were interacting with Steve Trautman time. honestly, he

from Naval Reactors at that point in CASTO: Yes,

8CHUCK 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2 little bit

and,

walked to the Ambassador Office. this letter in front of me, and

You know, I had to So,

he throws scan it

quickly, able

and he took it

away from me.

I wasn't

to look --

all I did notice was it

was from the

head of the Technology Department from Naval Reactors. MALE PARTICIPANT: Okay. We can follow

with that through our liaison team -CHUCK CASTO: MALE more Yes. -is and it find that out a

PARTICIPANT: about what

they're

modeling.

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52

2 3 4

MALE

PARTICIPANT:

Well,

we'll

get

our

liaison team following up on that. CHUCK CASTO: Yes. So, you've got it. Naval Reactors,

MALE PARTICIPANT: 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2 titled, the CHUCK CASTO: Right. the Office of Naval Reactors, pager that we sent. CHUCK CASTO: Yes.

Chuck,

they asked for the one-

MALE PARTICIPANT: and told DOE they could give

And we went through DOE it to them. But that

might be where they got the 50 miles CHUCK CASTO: Yes.

(inaudible).

MALE PARTICIPANT: and figure that out. CHUCK CASTO: that piece of information, Yes.

But we'll get with them

So,

just give you

and then you'll handle it. Yes. think the letter was was, in you Naval know, the

MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: title Head of for

And I the guy

Department

Technology NEALR. GROSS

Reactors,

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53

I
2 3 4

whoever that is. MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: Okay. Thanks, guys.

All right. Thanks. Hey,

MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT:

the

(inaudible)

6 7

Navy and the Reactor

Safety Team are both coming in.

Do you want to (inaudible) for a minute. Have you got a second, Chuck? CHUCK CASTO: Yes, I.do. Okay. Pat (inaudible, possibly

1 1 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 2 23 2 2 Go ahead, "Island").

MALE PARTICIPANT: PAT: Hi, Chuck.

MALE PARTICIPANT: Pat. PAT:

Go

ahead.

Go ahead.

Did you have anything you wanted to -No. Just, Chuck, we got the

information on what your suggestions were. reference materials we have been using

And those here in the

Incident Response Center for a couple of days. CHUCK CASTO: PAT: NUREG CR-6150. CHUCK CASTO: PAT: we're looking know, for, Yes. I guess
---

Good. the

That's the 800 course material,

We've got that information. do you have anything else?

you that

I know you just got on the ground there NEAL R.GROSS


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54

I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11
12

we could help you with? CHUCK CASTO: would reach out to Yes, that's what I said. those I

the Lab on some of

models

that they have and get some recommendations Lab about projection on dose. it I'll tell

from the you, from

what I know and what I've seen,

doesn't have a good

outcome in a station blackout for this length of time. PAT: CHUCK assume it's Right. CASTO: So, you
--

could

just

about

going to go its PAT:


CHUCK

course

Right.
CASTO: -with the Mark 1

13 14 15 16 1 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

containment.

Now

the

question But, to

is,

you

know,

what

happens to the vessel? is probably got not to that going

you know, last at

the containment So, models then, that And I

all. other

you've

start

running

some in

they have

they reference

that NUREG.

think the Lab can probably, studies. They can

you know, probably kind of

they've done the give you some you're

recommendations

about

what

releases

talking about and how far. PAT: CHUCK Okay. CASTO: Yes, I think what we're of the

looking for here is, distance, you know?

what's the outer reaches

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55

1
2 3 4 the Lab.

PAT:

Okay. See what you can get from

CHUCK CASTO:

They're really smart people there. PAT: TOM: Okay. This is Tom Lyle (phonetic). that GE Hitachi has got an

Are you aware EOC stood up in Tokyo?

CHUCK CASTO: 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 whomever in called head, us no, contact

No.

That's another player

we would like to get tied into somehow. MALE PARTICIPANT: for you in We've Tokyo. requested a

phone number

And our GE

contact here,

Wilmington

(phonetic),

was going to try

to get that number and a name,

so that we could call

up and introduce ourselves directly. CHUCK CASTO: Yes, I would love to get

somebody embedded in GE as well. MALE PARTICIPANT: Eva Yes, is they haven't her

back yet. they still

(phonetic)

shaking

haven't called us back.

But the

promised to give us that information. CHUCK CASTO: we're talking to, then. Right. if Marty can call Then, we need to elevate who

MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO:

I mean,

the upper reaches of GE, NEAL R.GROSS

forget about the

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56 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 of me.

liaison person. MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: All right. Okay.

Call the upper reaches of GE there, because that not

and see how we can get embedded in would be as good as being in quite as good as EOC, Thank you.

TEPCO,

or wherever,

but pretty good.

I don't know how to tell you to get a hold


They've confiscated
--

FEMALE BlackBerry? MALE BlackBerry?

PARTICIPANT:

Do

you

have

your

PARTICIPANT:

Have

you

got

your

CHUCK CASTO: they have confiscated our

Yes,

but,

for

today anyhow, at the guard

BlackBerrys

shack and our computers. that fixed, but, laptops inside.


So , is

The Embassy is

trying to get

for now, we don't have BlackBerrys or

the point of contact,

you know,

20 21 22 23 24 25

is

going to be the point of contact. MALE PARTICIPANT: We have a phone number

for Amy's BlackBerry. CHUCK CASTO: this point -and what I'll Yes, Amy orI, do is it? I'll because at just call in

every hour or so.

What is

We're on the hour now.

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57 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 see if hour, Then, start half. CHUCK CASTO: Okay. So, So, if I'll call
--

So,

maybe, in

Marty,

if

you're okay with it,

I'll

just

call in

the next hour. MARTY VIRGILIO: Yes, that would be good. because we'll a hour and a

we will get to check in before -doing turnover here at 6:30, in

MARTY VIRGILIO: that would be great. CHUCK CASTO: I'll

you check in

in an

call you in

an hour and and

there's anything changed and what you have,

we'll share information. Now about this I understand


--

13
1 1 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 around ET. that.

--

Allen, to

help be a

me

out

again

there's

going

flight

tomorrow,

the FERMAC at 9:00 a.m.? MALE PARTICIPANT: (Inaudible)


--

that's

supposed to be flying over the areas around MALE PARTICIPANT: We don't

seem to know

CHUCK CASTO: Between

ET,

they're going to flying they're in covering between the morning.

Tokyo,

Tokyo and the plant at 9:00 a.m. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO:

We haven't heard that. We haven't heard that. Well, I'm sitting here

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58 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 great. MALE PARTICIPANT: 1


1 -what?
--

talking to --

Allen is

the man

--

ALLEN:

Allen Remick

(phonetic). is the man on He says

CHUCK CASTO: that,

Allen Remick

and I'm sitting right here next to him.

they got the green light to go plant at 9:00 a.m. MALE PARTICIPANT:

from Tokyo up to the

That's

great.

That's

That is

very good. But that's

CHUCK CASTO:
12,

AMS

(phonetic).

15 hours from now.

1 13 14 1 1 17 18 19 20
21 22

MALE

PARTICIPANT: interested Yes.

Right.

Right.

But

we'll be, obviously,

(inaudible). Okay. I'll call you

CHUCK CASTO: in one hour.

MALE PARTICIPANT: we can get that information? CHUCK CASTO: that information in or something?
ALLEN: analysis of it Yes, we

Is

there some way that

Yes,

Allen,

you can get me

the morning after they download it

can

--

we

will

do

an

and give you --

23 24 2 SITREP?

CHUCK

CASTO:

You're

going

to

give

ALLEN:

That's what I'm here for. NEAL R. GROSS

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59
1

CHUCK CASTO: a great guy. done. get it He's

Yes. to

Allen's the man. get me the a SITREP

He's when

going they

3
4 5 6

they're morning,

When

get

data I'll

tomorrow get a

downloaded and analyze it,

SITREP from him. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK hours, and, then, CASTO: So, Great. Great. Thank you. they'll do it in 15

7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
up.

sometime in

the next 24 you'll have

some analysis. ALLEN: probably be, well, I can't now. CHUCK CASTO: ALLEN: Yes. I'm going to guess it will

I'm not going to guess.

I'm sorry,

I'm not quite sure how they're set

CHUCK

CASTO:

Sometime

during

the

day

tomorrow we should have a SITREP on between Tokyo and the site.


MALE PARTICIPANT: Good.

20
21 22 23 24 25

CHUCK CASTO: an hour.

Okay.

I'll

talk to you in

MALE PARTICIPANT:

All right.

MALE

PARTICIPANT:

All

right.

Thanks,

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60

Chuck. CHUCK CASTO: Thank you, gentlemen. Thank

you.

11

12
13

1E

18 19
20

21
22

23
24 25

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61

1
2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 calling is with (inaudible) so ago, of the

(CONFERENCE CALL INITIATED) DAN DORMAN: JOHN MONAGER: DAN DORMAN: JOHN MONAGER: DAN DORMAN: JOHN MONAGER: DAN DORMAN: JOHN MONAGER: Hey, John? Yes? I've got the Executive Team. Hey, This is who's this, Dan Dorman. Mike?

Hey, Dan, how you doing? Okay. How are you? Pretty good. all except

Pretty good.

Hey, we all just got over here, for the guy on (inaudible) DAN DORMAN: JOHN from TTT.

Right. And we arrived at the

MONAGER:

Embassy about an hour,

hour and a half or the lay quite

and we've been getting some briefings, land, et cetera. And it's actually

interesting, quite busy. But, with that, I guess the reason we're

they've invited the NRC to go to a meeting at an is eight hour the o'clock and a half, here, a which meeting who is is with the

TEPCO

approximately TEPCO, which

licensee,

and NISA,

regulatory body. They are recommendations looking for insights, guidance,

from the NRC for all NEAL R. GROSS


COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701

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62 pools for the Daiichi site, Daiichi site, the C-H-I

(phonetic) site. 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 and 4, water. there, answer, down, C-H-I one. MALE PARTICIPANT: JOHN MONAGER: Yes. Unit 1 and 2 is boiling MALE PARTICIPANT: JOHN MONAGER: That's Daiichi. Daiichi site, yes, the

and Unit 3 and 4 is

having zirc/water reaction.

They believe there is The explosion -leveled the walls,

essentially no walls on Unit 3. Unit 4. The explosion

I'm sorry --

leveled the structure for the Unit the way down to the approximate the fuels. So, there's no

4 spent-fuel pool all level of the

bottom of

water in

there whatsoever. MALE PARTICIPANT: And no ability to

retain water. JOHN MONAGER: Someone et cetera. of course, has And no ability about dropping to retain sand in

talked

To us, is water,

I mean the simple, water, water. I guess, all three

obvious

You know,

there is,

Units of

1, 3,

the reactor building, So,

those had at

the explosion. least for Units reach

then, you've got the question, 3, you know, would

1 and

the water But,

actually

through all

the massive debris?

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63 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1e 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2 21 22 23 24 2 guess in there so where it is, want is Unit 2, there is a partial hole cut in It's of there it aerial fire the top of the

secondary containment. you know, some type

would seem like, or (inaudible) there. you may

truck, you know,

just spraying that nozzle in So, how far --

MALE PARTICIPANT: to get some clarification,

but our understanding

that partial hole is JOHN

on the wall? It could be. No matter if you got

MONAGER:

I guess the thought would be,

some type of aerial lift

fire truck with a nozzle -They have cut the hole explode from hydrogen

MALE PARTICIPANT: that it wouldn't

like the other two units. MALE from what PARTICIPANT: we've seen, Right, we've right. some And I

seen

things

that we infer that that's on the vertical wall of the building. Let me go back to your original question. I've got some other got John Monager Embassy. half with on folks who came in here. We've the

(phonetic) on the phone over at

They've got a meeting in about an hour and a TEPCO what and NISA to do who are the seeking Unit 1 our best 4

advice

for

through

(inaudible). Unit 1 and 2 are boiling down. NEALR.GROSS


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Unit 3 and

64 1 2 3 4 4 are experiencing zirc/water reactions. that the explosion in Unit 4 has left They believe the Unit 4

spent-fuel pool with no ability to retain water. believe that, essentially, the walls of that

They spent-

fuel pool are gone. 6 7 8 MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: Correct. So, they are looking

for our best advice on how to address that situation. They're talking about things like dumping sand on it.

1 1 1 13 14 15 16
17 -is

JOHN military.

MONAGER:

Right.

That's

from

the

Even though we said an hour and a half, probably have to leave here at 7:30. an hour. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT:
there any immediate --

we

So,

it

gives us

Okay. All right. So, let us

18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 reaction is

MALE

PARTICIPANT: sand or

Well, dirt

my would

immediate be the

dump If

(inaudible).

you confirm the walls are gone and it you've got to cover it up with

doesn't retain water, (inaudible).

MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT:

How would you do that? What it's happens a week

from now with that sand?

The heat,

just going to

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65 1 2 3 4 up. 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2 21 22 23 24 25 there's just that has insulate it. turns sand in I mean I don't know when sand melts and but I don't know if you want the

into glass, there.

MALE PARTICIPANT: Let's do a little

Well,

we'll go look it and we'll get

research on it

back with you. MALE PARTICIPANT: the different (Inaudible) possible last night for

options

(inaudible). MALE PARTICIPANT: were two options. if Yes, the dirt and sand I mean, instead

What I would add to that, a viable option,

we find out that that is

of helicopters or buckets of sand, things, them. there's sand pumps. They

there are actually fill beaches with

And we need to bring those resources to bear if there. Hey, let's go back to they have the

you're pumping sand in


.

MALE PARTICIPANT: For the three

the sand. roof any

units,

entire getting

and all sand

that debris on top. through is that roof. 4

You're not (Inaudible) that I guess

potentially

getting sand

the No.

they're all the way down to the side of the fuel pool, right? I mean, |I M it looks like

just tremendous debris on top of these spentNEAL R. GROSS


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66 fuel 2 3 4 talking 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2 there? MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: JOHN MONAGER: an obvious answer, So, Yes, Yes. you know, boron, yes, I mean it is we're still here. just
--

pools.

So,

don't

think sand's

going

through

that. And my battery's going dead. MALE about PARTICIPANT: Unit 4. Well, The we're ones only can

sand for

other

take water,

right? MALE PARTICIPANT: If that's our

recommendation. MALE PARTICIPANT: can get water in them, Yes. I them. mean, if you

get water in Yes.

MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT:

Water

and

boron

or

MALE

PARTICIPANT:

Are

you

guys

still

the water,

et cetera. or if it

But I is not have

guess the question is, possible, but, to me,

you know,

the question is,

you know,

we provided any it's is

recommendations

to date?

You know,

my understanding that everything we've been doing just information-gathering. And looking through our charter, you know, NEAL R. GROSS
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67 1 2 3 4

there was not reluctance,

but the notion to make sure

mm
mmmUm

mUm
-

-m

7
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-m-mU

-m

-mmm-

NEAL R.GROSS
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
1ig',>% 9"4A.AA.".%"

WA.RHINr.TON

n.r.

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2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 II

68

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
25

NEAL R.GROSS
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW.

69

2
3
4

M-

M-

5 6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 telling a list of interesting, questions,
MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: Right. I mean, what's

K>

these

seem

like

very

elementary

though. MALE PARTICIPANT: things Well, can we give them what could work?

and priority-wise

That's all we want. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: anything. We'r Okay. Yes. I mean we're not

them to do

e giving

them our

best advice.

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70 1 2 3 4 5 know. JOHN MONAGER: So, guys, we're talking JOHN MONAGER: MALE Right, right. That's about all we

PARTICIPANT:

about 40-45 minutes? MALE PARTICIPANT: Yes, and I think, in

7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 1 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2

the meantime,

you guys just need to square it

with the

Ambassador as to how you want to do this. JOHN MONAGER:


Yes, yes,

All right.

All right.

listening --

MALE PARTICIPANT: just as a secondary question,

When you talk to them, what about Unit 5?

Because we had seen a report from IAEA that indicated that Unit 5 pool -specific. it it It was we think it's the pool; it wasn't and

(inaudible, possibly "leveled"), to that pool, but we're

wasn't specific is the pool, from

inferring

was boiling down. IAEA, to we're within a

And extrapolating couple of hours

the data here

of getting

the point where

they're exposing

fuel in Unit 5. And there was some indication in that they they

had an operable diesel generator could use to pump water to Unit 5, any confirmation secondary to,

Unit 6 that

but we haven't seen So, the

that that's actually happening. obviously, Units 3 and 4 are

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71 1 2 3 4 (inaudible) gear. But if they have any current

information on Unit 5,

that would be good to know. Okay. All right.

JOHN MONAGER:

7 8 9 1 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS
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So,

the question is,

do we want to rerun

some of the last calculations -MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: a Mr. Roberts Hang on a second. No, go ahead. I just talked to

Okay.

(phonetic) at Naval Reactors. Okay. And what he provided is

JOHN MONAGER:

MALE PARTICIPANT: that Naval Reactors

put together some talking points the

which were not necessarily intended to be this is dose or broad points. consequences And or any of their that, is but,

basically, three

dialog.

dialog

around

72

MALE PARTICIPANT: same email.

It

sounds like it's

the

You're saying they're talking points. MALE PARTICIPANT: Yes. Yes, it seems like the

MALE PARTICIPANT: same thing back here.

9
10 11 12 13

was a talking point. MALE PARTICIPANT: Was a talking point,

but the point that was was, if they're power,

trying to be made around that their attention point, restoring what they

focusing that

15 16 1 18 19

offsite

and

particular

will end up with is hundreds of miles.

a problem that could extend out to

MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE intended to be. being lost in PARTICIPANT:

Okay. That was what it was is

29 2
22 23 24 25

The context of this conversation

translation. PARTICIPANT: It definitely sounds

MALE like it.

MALE PARTICIPANT:

So,

what is

it

they're

suggesting to avoid hundreds of miles?

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73 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2 21 22 23 24 You know, do for you? JOHN MONAGER: we're trying to I think that's it do the turnover. for now. We're And they sense? JOHN MONAGER: Yes, that makes sense. And we have heard that point, it MALE PARTICIPANT: to bring more resources in MALE To bring more people,

there. On that particular

PARTICIPANT: focus

was don't

on restoring

offsite power Focus on the

because that's something down the line. four pumps at that we provided

for you that are sitting

Yokosuka Naval Base Station that you haven't done

anything with. MALE PARTICIPANT: John, does that make

MALE PARTICIPANT:

some of those pumps are (inaudible) -MALE mention (inaudible). have (inaudible). MALE PARTICIPANT: John, what else can we PARTICIPANT: They didn't

They mentioned the four that we

going to be working here pretty much 24/7. have another center called the -MALE PARTICIPANT: JOHN MONAGER:

Called the Conti. -Conti. It is a

government EOF (phonetic),

essentially.

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74 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 1 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 going down. MALE PARTICIPANT: Yes, if you could call right now. MALE PARTICIPANT: JOHN MONAGER: We We've got a -do have a land line Tony down person, still or MALE PARTICIPANT: basically. So, we're going to have Correct. It's the

Prime Minister's EOC, JOHN

MONAGER:

there tonight, if not two,

and we'll have at up here tonight.

least one But we're

trying to work through that. MALE PARTICIPANT: JOHN MONAGER: Okay. up now with also. right, we'll talk the

Chuck is

Ambassador going through some items, MALE to you guys later, from us. JOHN MONAGER: No. So, PARTICIPANT: All

then, unless you need anything else

guess,

if

you

call back, you're going to call my cell phone? MALE PARTICIPANT: a cell phone? JOHN MONAGER: Yes, we're on a cell phone (Inaudible). You have

the Ops Center on your land line and get hooked up to the executive bridge in about a half an hour, we'll

give you our best thinking. NEAL R.GROSS


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75 JOHN MONAGER: Yes. Actually, we've got a we'll just

2 3
4

land line now.

So,

when we hang up here,

go right into that for the ET bridge and just keep it going. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: JOHN Bye-bye. MONAGER: Fine. Great. All right. Thank you. Good enough.

5
6

7
8 9 1 1 121 13 14 1 16 17 18 19 20 21

22
23

24
25

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76

(CONFERENCE CALL INITIATED) 2 3 4 talking MALE PARTICIPANT: points, not intended It to was be intended to be something is on

letterhead

to TEPCO or anything.

And there

a bit Fix

of frustration on the Naval Reactor the problem now, 7 8 9 10 1 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2C 2 22 23 24 25 about thank you very much,

(inaudible). not

(inaudible).

MALE PARTICIPANT: protective action, and

What are we going to do the like of If that, with

the current information (inaudible, (inaudible), (inaudible). MALE possibly and no

that we know? "knee-jerk")

they get a reaction but that's

water,

(inaudible),

PARTICIPANT:

know,

but

they

haven't really done anything with the (inaudible). MALE PARTICIPANT: We came down to

validate our (inaudible). MALE PARTICIPANT: I mean, actually, Now, with

that's what they're doing piecemeal anyway.


our update on the --

MALE PARTICIPANT: produced report at 33 percent and NHK reported NISA with

We also have the Kyotofuel damage the partial in Unit 2,

containment

failure. I'm thinking, do we want to and (inaudible, (inaudible)

possibly "run a 3-4 percent fuel pool) NEAL R. GROSS


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77 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12
13 percent
--

33 percent damage was reached? MALE PARTICIPANT: Maybe if term, to we have all of what are they be radically

those (inaudible) within the first going to do there? Is it

going

different? MALE PARTICIPANT: it From what they tell me,

won't be radically different. MALE PARTICIPANT: Tell me again, what

would be the conditions? MALE PARTICIPANT: Unit 2, Unit 2, 33

MALE PARTICIPANT:
MALE PARTICIPANT:

Thirty-three percent.
--

fuel

damage

14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
25

(inaudible, and 4,

possibly

"containment possibly

reached").

Units 3

(inaudible,

"uphold")

the 50 percent

that we've had. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: Both of them? Both of them

(inaudible) with containment? MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: have is, if they wait No. No? No. (Inaudible).

But the problem that we tomorrow at nine

until

o'clock --

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78 1 2 3 4 5 they've got,
into the air

MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT:

(Inaudible). -and we know that

you know,
--

a bunch of stuff being put out

MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT:

(Inaudible). The question is, do we

want to press the issue of (inaudible)? MALE PARTICIPANT: 9 3 and 4 have (inaudible, (Inaudible) "clear from John, reactions

possibly

going on"). 11 12 13 14 1 1 17 18 19 2 21 22 23 2 25 4 boiling recoverable? fuel leave is it,

What about Unit 1? MALE PARTICIPANT: Units 1 and 2 are

boiling down,

but they're not in play right now. MALE PARTICIPANT: Well, I wonder if the

uncovered at this point and whether they can get water in there. With the radiation

shields in

that area -MALE PARTICIPANT: And if they're not

boiled off yet,

how long until they are? Yes. I mean, are they

MALE PARTICIPANT:

MALE down, I

PARTICIPANT: think that


--

Well,

when that

these

are

could mean

they are

steaming off, but

MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT:

Yes. That ought to be a high

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79 1 2 3 4 going,. but
--

priority. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: if you have Right. Yes.

You might have one core three cores going

(inaudible)

MALE 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 priority, if yes. MALE inconceivable that

PARTICIPANT:

Keep

it

down

to

two,

PARTICIPANT: (inaudible) core --

mean

it's

MALE PARTICIPANT: feet of water above those. point of saying that,

There's a minimum of 23

They're now getting to the

"We need water.n? I don't think they -There was a minimum of

MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT:

23 feet above them four days ago. MALE PARTICIPANT: (Laughter.) MALE PARTICIPANT: it's it's But (inaudible) to be a But they're just Right.

humanly possible. even possible.

wondering if

MALE PARTICIPANT: accessible one. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT:

And 1 may be the most

Yes. With the (inaudible)

structure over the top,

that may be the easiest one to

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80 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 there is about four, be done? I put water in. MALE PARTICIPANT: covering with dirt. mean I guess Yes, and we're talking can it even

I mean,

that's also

the challenge.

How do you get in MALE break a hole in

there to do it? PARTICIPANT: I think you've got to

the roof. Well, no. I mean, no,

MALE PARTICIPANT: no roof on (inaudible). MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: of equipment can you get in

No, Yes.

this is

4. what kind

I mean,

there to -(Inaudible). I think a good bet is

13
1 1 1 .1 18 19 maybe here.

MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT:

(inaudible) coming from the pool. MALE PARTICIPANT: level? I think it's down here, It's probably

(inaudible, possibly "at this") MALE PARTICIPANT: Here. The question is, possibly "hand pump')? MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: efficiency in getting a fan in MALE PARTICIPANT: NEAL R.GROSS
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21 22 23 24 25

do you have a (inaudible,

Yes,

yes.

Do you have 10 percent there? If you had a

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81 1 2 3 field in (inaudible, possibly "front-loader"), could you even

get close enough? MALE PARTICIPANT: What is the radiation

and around that? MALE PARTICIPANT: It's been 10 to if 11 you

6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2

(inaudible).

(Inaudible,

possibly

"The pump, in

could just get the pump and get one shot") there, you could pump it in. Yes. But it

the hose

MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: days to get the hoses. pumps pump"). need (inaudible,

might take them those sand material to

And I don't know if possibly "source

They

really don't

have any compressed air.

(Inaudible) they'll pump dirt out of the ground. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: that. to tell you, the another piece call, is Yes, yes.

(Inaudible). Okay. We can

(inaudible, possibly "run") What of information I wanted

we got

from

(inaudible)

they did get the plane up over the air base, have we detectable unable iodine and cesium in to get any

and they but for

the ground, values

were

quantitative

those. MALE PARTICIPANT: Okay.

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82 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 statement up further? then, (inaudible)? MALE PARTICIPANT: Do you want to mark it back to her. And, it with or 100, (inaudible, MALE PARTICIPANT: The air base is

possibly "150 miles west") MALE PARTICIPANT:

(inaudible). It's 75

I'm not sure. of (inaudible

but it's

directly west

"you").

Because it's

about the same radius from the plant. And if you need any more specifics on

that, what we've got -MALE running this. MALE PARTICIPANT: (inaudible), hear anything put in So, their the we're going to run (inaudible)? We PARTICIPANT: Okay. We'll start

didn't

about

(inaudible,

possibly

"plant"). MALE PARTICIPANT: Did we include any on

I'm going to give it

I'm doing the (inaudible). MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: Yes. I'm going to put in a

that says NRC has been requested to provide

solutions to whatever the -MALE PARTICIPANT: Well, I think the

second page we ought sent, you know,

to identify the fact

that we've

to the Embassy or we've had our folks NEAL R.GROSS


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83

2
3 4

MALE

PARTICIPANT: Mr. Monager

This

the Headquarters is coming

Operations Officer, up on the ET bridge. Mr. MR.

(phonetic),

5 6
7

Monager,

are you there,

sir? sir.

MONAGER (phonetic):

Yes,

MALE PARTICIPANT: JOHN MONAGER:

All right. Hey, we were just

8
9 1 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21
22 assessment,

reestablishing a line, and we're just going to keep a line open. MALE PARTICIPANT: JOHN MONAGER: MALE John. JOHN MONAGER: We'll put it Okay. on mute, too. Okay.

Okay? Sounds good enough,

PARTICIPANT:

MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: have our key messages and

Thanks. we We the

On the second page, talking points. for why

recognize

that we have said a rationale

rad team needs to get (inaudible). In fact, our assessment, our new dose

and --

23 24 25 there?

MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT:

(Inaudible). Hey, John, are you up

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84 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 probably you put music. JOHN going to MONAGER: have Yes. up. I think They're we're still it JOHN MONAGER: Yes, we're here. All right. you just I think if did, it's

MALE PARTICIPANT: on mute,

or whatever

to hang

setting up the phones here. MALE PARTICIPANT: All right. Okay. Okay. So, we'll give

9 1 12 1 13 1 1 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2

MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: JOHN MONAGER: you guys a buzz back. All right.

All right.

Thank you.

Bye-bye.

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85 (CONFERENCE CALL INITIATED) 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 dynamic here. CHUCK phone CASTO: with Hey, the we just had a and very the (inaudible)? MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: Yes. Marty, I have Chuck anything public, it's MALE anything about document Right theirs now, about PARTICIPANT: Do we want in to say

the protective the

actions,

the public guidelines? with what

protection

action

we say ours aren't

inconsistent

(inaudible,

possibly "were"). In the public document? Well, I'm sorry, the

MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT:

sent out to all agencies,

which it

would

be expected to go public. And I don't or know just if leave we want to say in

different

the

points

(inaudible) right now. MALE PARTICIPANT: What is it, the

Casto coming on the bridge. MARTY VIRGILIO: Chuck, Okay.

are you there? Yes, I'm here. Okay, Chuck, we're

CHUCK CASTO: MALE

PARTICIPANT:

call

Ambassador

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86 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 Director of Nuclear Technology Propulsion and Thomas. Program, Admiral for the Naval Ren Nuclear

Mueller,

(phonetic),

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

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87

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

K5X

NEAL R. GROSS
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

*mm

- m-m

m88

-nm m

-Um

d---

19 2C 21

2] 24 25

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89 1 2 3

9
10 11 12 13 14 1 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R.GROSS
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90

1
2 3 4 on it,

MALE PARTICIPANT: Chuck,

Okay.

Yes,

we'll

get

but I'm not sure that Naval Reactors has

done a calculation. CHUCK CASTO: MALE They haven't, They're no. just shooting

PARTICIPANT:

6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

from the hip. CHUCK CASTO: Right, it's visceral.

MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: to some agreement. I think, here,

Yes.

But we need to at least come

And I have Mueller's phone number,

to call him. Is he the person who

MALE PARTICIPANT: signed this document? CHUCK CASTO: (phonetic), It

says,

it

has Mueller,

Ren

and Thomas send on it, MALE PARTICIPANT:

an email. Okay. But if you've

got Mueller's phone number, CHUCK CASTO:

we'll follow up with him.

You know, (phonetic) Naval

and the other thing is in

Offendorf with

has a lot of background

this area

Reactors and the Admiral and stuff.

You know, trying just a

he may be able to help out a little to get us to work together well.

bit here, It's

suggestion. NEAL R.GROSS


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91 1 MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: 3


Admiral -or,

Okay. then,

We'll work it. so we need, the

And,
--

the Admiral?

the Ambassador

would

like

one-pager

or

something,

bullet

points,

that

reconcile

these differences

or explain

the two sides

by the time he has the call with the White House at 7 nine o'clock our time, which is two hours from now. TEPCO has asked for So, they may be

8Meanwhile, 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2 21
2

in an hour,

us to come over and meet with them. reaching out for some advice. MALE PARTICIPANT:

Beyond

what

John

Monager has asked for? CHUCK CASTO: asked for. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE about PARTICIPANT: Okay. We talked with John I don't know what John has

20 minutes ago, looking

and what he indicated was that on the spent-fuel pools,

they're

for advice

that Units 1 and 2 are boiling off. CHUCK CASTO: Yes, So, that's probably the

advice they're looking for.


that, if we can share it
--

whatever we have for

23 2 2

MALE

PARTICIPANT:

Right.

We're working

on a timeline to support John right now. CHUCK CASTO: Okay. So, you've got two

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92 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 is bought probably Yes. MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: a 202. He's in Yes. So, it's Yes, 202 area code? probably. Yes, Washington? CHUCK CASTO: Yes, I believe so, right. things you're working on there. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: number you gave was for whom? CHUCK M-U-E-L-L-E-R. CASTO: He's the It's Troy Director J. of Mueller, Nuclear Got it. Well, Chuck, the phone

Technology for the Naval Nuclear Propulsion Program. MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO:
M-U --

E-L-L-E-R. Thank you. And he's over here in

MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT:

Washington.

We just had a

videoconference with him and the Ambassador. MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: Okay. off? So, Okay. was very heated.

And it

you'll get, reconcile something he's this. going to ask if the

Because

Chairman's bought off in ask us that.

I know he's going to

He wants to go to the Japanese. NEALR. GROSS


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1c 11 12 1 14 15 1 ;MALE 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2 Ambassador. MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: Okay. need to come through Chuck? CHUCK CASTO: Yes, they sent it to the they did send it PARTICIPANT: Well, it sounds like

to the Ambassador. Okay. we need to get -Did I get it right,

MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: MALE Yes,

PARTICIPANT:

They

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94 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 (inaudible) percent. with fuel. MALE PARTICIPANT: Should we do NR. what? MALE PARTICIPANT: The Procedures Okay. is I'm following up working on spent get busy. MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: MALE Okay. thanks. should Thanks. be doing us. I mean they need to work with us. MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: Yes.
--

But they're not very Well, yes,

MALE PARTICIPANT: that within NR they've got it

I'm not sure

well-coordinated because and

we've been working with them all through the time, nobody mentioned this. CHUCK certainly visceral. But, anyhow, I'll let you go, CASTO: Yes. Well,

they're

so you can

All right, Who

PARTICIPANT:

Team

(inaudible, possibly "IC")? MALE PARTICIPANT: Does IC have any

actions out of this? MALE 33 PARTICIPANT: percent and these it's We're are running (inaudible)

But the gut reaction, NEAL R,GROSS

not going to be

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

95 much different. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: That's fine. Who's coming up with

these talking points for to need two hours.

the Ambassador?

He's going

MALE PARTICIPANT: we need for John in what we need for 10

I think let's so we I can mean

get what focus I on

minutes,

the Ambassador.

think

that's

the same call

that Mike's on at eight o'clock

our time. MALE PARTICIPANT: He hasn't shared it

with the Ambassador yet. MALE PARTICIPANT: going to do with it right now, I'm not sure what we're do with the Chairman.

What will we tell him? be made yet.

I mean there's no decisions to we need to give him an

At some point,

update on the status. MALE "Where was") PARTICIPANT: the Japanese (Inaudible, (inaudible, possibly possibly

"regulator in all this")? MALE PARTICIPANT: Well, they were in the

meeting that Tony had just come from that (inaudible). They were in and TEPCO the meeting. It was with (inaudible)

(inaudible). They came back from that meeting because

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96
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2 additional? interagency public. So, this and I'll that's (inaudible, possibly "there was going to be a")

meeting to go into detail about what (inaudible). MALE PARTICIPANT: Dan, are you

comfortable that you've got a list MALE (inaudible). MALE PARTICIPANT: PARTICIPANT:

of action items? I'm not sure that

Yes,

yes.

Make

sure

that we get that updated of all that we're now working on. MALE PARTICIPANT: and get back to him, if

the different

things

I could start that list

you want to take a look at -Yes. We'll combine the

MALE PARTICIPANT: changes on each different MALE

(inaudible). Do you want to review

PARTICIPANT:

work on (inaudible)? MALE PARTICIPANT: (Inaudible, possibly,

"I can do whatever you want.") MALE I started TEPCO, PARTICIPANT: If you wouldn't mind?

make this public. (Inaudible)? Interagency, the

MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT:

one that is

likely to be shared with the (inaudible). Anything

(inaudible) for the general MALE PARTICIPANT: Right.

(Inaudible). GROSS NEAL R.

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97 1 2 3 4
5

MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE about merged 30 minutes PARTICIPANT: to review

(Inaudible). Marty's both calling that in we

documents the

together,
--

and,

then,

also,

document

recommending that

6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 1 1 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 right we tomorrow. (inaudible). to private

MALE other agencies?

PARTICIPANT:

Is

this

going

out

to

MALE PARTICIPANT: one, you can put it

No, in

this is that

not. one;

The Rod

(phonetic) kind of us"). is

can't put it. in a (inaudible,

his. possibly

That's

the one that

"shotgun following

But what's the other one? on-MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT:

The one we sent

(Inaudible). Correct. That Yes. picks up

MALE

PARTICIPANT:

Yes,

it

will

be

up

MALE PARTICIPANT: don't need to

Yes. put

Yes. that in, Yes.

Yes,

that's we It

that Okay.

recommended it, makes sense.

now that it's

coming.

(Pause.) NEAL R. GROSS


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98 1 2 3 4 5 (inaudible). MALE bigger thing. MALE in PARTICIPANT: So, is there anything PARTICIPANT: We're not sure of the MALE PARTICIPANT: Our talking points

6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

there that's not in

the bigger document? No, not at all. But what I was trying for the

MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: to do, if

we're trying to get to a one-pager this looks a lot closer to that. MALE PARTICIPANT: more of a, Well, this the is

Ambassador,

problem, definitely

though,

this

is

(inaudible).

K>S

MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE DOE. (Inaudible). MALE PARTICIPANT: PARTICIPANT:

(Inaudible). And did give that to

I'm

not

sure

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100

1 2 3 d 5 6 7

(CONFERENCE CALL INITIATED) MALE PARTICIPANT: DAN DORMAN: MALE Yes? Admiral Donald Dan?

PARTICIPANT:

(phonetic) wants to talk to both you and the Chairman. So, they're getting the Chairman on the line, and

they're patching in

(inaudible). Okay. Admiral Donald is Naval

DAN DORMAN: 9 i 11 12 13 14 1 16 17 18 1 20 21 22 23 2 2 I'll done. (Laughter.) MALE guys (inaudible). Reactors.

MALE PARTICIPANT:

MALE PARTICIPANT:

Okay,

my work here is

PARTICIPANT:

Okay,

let's

get

you

MALE PARTICIPANT:

This is

what we sent.

Do you want send that to somebody in MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: Okay.

Naval Reactors?

(Inaudible) send it

to.

try to get a hold of (inaudible). MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: (Inaudible). I know. It's either go and don't If we

with what we got there or else just erase it even put it say that on there because we're working it.

they're not good anymore,

then that worries

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1 2 3 4

people. MALE PARTICIPANT: (inaudible). (Inaudible.) MALE PARTICIPANT: They're saying that the got were coming from Our understanding is we

6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2 2 22 23 24 25

initial

high

readings

we

(inaudible,

possibly "readings")

from Unit 4,

but were

actually from Unit 3. (Inaudible.) MALE

(Inaudible).

PARTICIPANT:

Admiral So,

Donald

is

asking to just speak to the Chairman. be kind of keyed into that. MALE PARTICIPANT: the Chairman beforehand? cold. I

we want to

Don't we want to brief mean you can't let the

Chairman get caught to the Chairman first? MALE Chairman, and if

How about we need to talk

PARTICIPANT:

First,

brief

the

they don't want (inaudible).

(Inaudible). MALE PARTICIPANT: The Chairman's coming in cold. (Inaudible) (Inaudible). All right. Let me know the issue.

MALE PARTICIPANT: when he's available. MALE Chairman. PARTICIPANT: The

We're

trying

to is

the to

(Inaudible).

recommendation

NEALR.GROSS
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AA ''

WA~-4iI~JATfN

nl rl 9WAFll701

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102 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 first brief the Chairman and then have the phone call. (Inaudible.) MALE PARTICIPANT: (Inaudible) hot items

that we ought to get up on the track or (inaudible). MALE PARTICIPANT: We should say that, in

light of current wind conditions, (inaudible). (Inaudible). MALE PARTICIPANT:

protective measures

Amazing point in

that,

10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2

if

the wind changes,

then

(inaudible).

I don't think

we can hide from that. (Inaudible). MALE does after provide we had PARTICIPANT: 6 Actually, which five we NRC NUREG-1353 pulled out

an Alternative contacted the

experienced and they were that this

structural civil engineers, (inaudible). Alternative about

reached out,

Essentially, all say the same, 6 which was developed in all the

the NUREG talks from the

(inaudible)

materials

(inaudible, possibly "drained") And it we've brainstormed. compounds, gives

spent-fuel pool. of materials clay, that

the types sand, et

There's lead,

dolomite, And we're

(inaudible)

cetera.

getting this emailed over to our contacts. I thought Chuck said he had this NUREG,

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103

1
2 3 4

but

there

is

actually

an

Alternative is

6,

which

if

you've got nothing Laboratory, there.


now.

else left,

Brookhaven National The (inaudible)

the

Chernobyl

event.

So,

that's the answer that we could give right

MALE PARTICIPANT: 7 dirty. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 .25 (inaudible), reaction concrete. to MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT:

Okay. Yes, it's quick and

Yes. I mean I think down, you and

really have to got your real experts to sit we don't understand caved over or is it the condition. Is

the pool wall

just the liner's cracked and the Naval Reactors is pour water on,

concrete's cracked?

pour water on, pour water on. Concrete, concrete. I've got Naval a lot of negative suggested no, I'm

Reactors

My concrete specialist said,

"Well,

not sure about concrete." MALE PARTICIPANT: to take to set up a batch? MALE PARTICIPANT: right? But minute answer, I Yes, where's the batch How long are you going

I mean you're right. like it. this Alternative 6, a five-

this is

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104 1 2 3 where again? MALE PARTICIPANT: here's on the top. NUREG. It came out of NUREG -It's a MALE PARTICIPANT: And that came out of

I wrote that on the top.

6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
25 retype it.

MALE PARTICIPANT: email to I

And this came out in an

and Amy (inaudible)? We're doing that. as we speak. She has And

MALE PARTICIPANT: (phonetic) is MALE (inaudible)? MALE PARTICIPANT: may not haveM, but she's got MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT:
--

doing it

PARTICIPANT:

She does. =I M I Okay. think

Well,

she

she

has

to

She tried

MALE PARTICIPANT: fax number,

don't

if

we have

but we're working on it. MALE PARTICIPANT: (Inaudible) Chuck, he to

had a couple of there when we first

things he read on talked to him.

the plane over

MALE PARTICIPANT: this other one,

But we need to give you

so we can reconcile the two. Yes, I'll take a look

MALE PARTICIPANT: at that. Yes, I'll

get back to you. NEAL R. GROSS

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105 MALE the Admiral PARTICIPANT: How long (inaudible)

with Naval Reactors? MALE PARTICIPANT: A xdmiral Donald. P ardon me? Admiral Donald? Acdmiral Donald? Inaudible).

MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: (Inaudible). MALE Chairman -PARTICIPANT:

5 6
7 8 9

Did

you

give

the

1 13 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2 2 22 23 24 25 26
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MALE PARTICIPANT: They know each other. (Inaudible) MALE PARTICIPANT: that we received the GE

They know each other.

Are we letting it (inaudible)

out

(inaudible,

possibly "where the breach is")? MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: the RTS? MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE (Inaudible, break"),
-well,

(Inaudible). Was that the breach in

Yes. It's okay, yes.

PARTICIPANT: "It

possibly

has got a whole upper valve

and in

the containment I don't think we were


do we?

we don't really know it,

(Inaudible). NEAL R.GROSS


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106

I
2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 1 1 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 2 2 that Naval second, meeting.

(CONFERENCE CALL INITIATED) MALE PARTICIPANT: I have Jack Foster

coming up on the bridge. MALE PARTICIPANT: JACK: John Hi. This is is Jack? Jack. stepping out for I don't a

Monager

He wanted me to talk to you about,

believe you're aware or I talking to Greg Casto,

think that you've just been Chuck Casto, just a little

while ago about the conversation with Naval Reactors. MALE PARTICIPANT: JACK: okay, Yes.

Let me put you on hold just for a

because I've got some people here I've

got to quiet down? MALE PARTICIPANT: (Pause.) JACK: So, Okay. Sorry about that. that Chuck mentioned the ET are working Thank you.

I guess the idea, and somehow

Reactors

together to figure out a path forward. include some kind of calculations (inaudible,

That path may associated with

protective action or a

possibly "Rad Code

1") or something like that. I'm just kind of fishing right now because most everybody has left the room and there's a lot of NEAL R. GROSS
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107
1

things going on here. MARTY VIRGILIO:


Hey, Chuck -I'm sorry

3 4

--

Jack,

this is

Marty.

6 2 7

JACK: makes sense.


12 18 1 12 15 1

Definitely.

Exactly.

And

that

MARTY VIRGILIO: with NR,

We're

trying

to connect

and we're trying to connect with the Chairman

right now to get that accomplished. JACK: talking a little Marty, bit you know, we have here, been too,

behind

the

scenes

17
13 18

about the possibility


knowns that we have,

of (inaudible) with sort of the


the two --

19 20 21 22 23 24 25 done.

MARTY

VIRGILIO:

Jack,

that's

how

we

developed our talking points. JACK: Okay, okay. Things haven't --

MARTY VIRGILIO:

That's exactly what we've

JACK: MARTY

Okay. VIRGILIO: Now Naval Reactors, I

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108 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2C 21 22 23 2 2 t419 to MARTY VIRGILIO: JOHN MONAGER: possibly "some"). MARTY VIRGILIO: Well, we sent it to We sent it We information (inaudible)? MALE PARTICIPANT: I mo "to (inaudible, we sent it don't know that they did anything that sophisticated. I think they developed their talking points based on

engineering judgment. JACK: MARTY understand that. JACK: Thanks a lot. MARTY VIRGILIO: JOHN MONAGER: We're getting TEPCO meeting. MARTY VIRGILIO: that we sent Okay. on Did you get for the the Okay, Hey, ready Jack. this is John. to that Okay. I appreciate it, Marty. Okay. Okay. But we're trying to

VIRGILIO:

Marty, to

head out

(inaudible)

only have

There's a set of recommendations should be doing with regard to those pools. JOHN MONAGER: All right. So,

on what we

you sent it

We'll grab that and roll.

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109 1 2 3 John. dirty, If MARTY VIRGILIO: MALE PARTICIPANT: you can't Yes. It Okay. was quick and dirty, dump anything in,

get water in,

sand, dolomite,

clay, whatever you can get into

those pools. 6 It comes out of a NUREG So, it's that Chuck had

referenced us earlier today.

about the best

source you can have at this point in a half an hour. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16


17

JOHN MONAGER: MARTY VIRGILIO: CHUCK CASTO:

Okay.

Perfect.

Good luck.

Hey, Marty? Yes? Chuck. Chuck. (inaudible) came up.

MARTY VIRGILIO: CHUCK CASTO:

This is Yes, One

MARTY VIRGILIO: CHUCK CASTO: any --

Are we interested in
here--

and I've got to be careful

18 19 20 2 22 23 2 2 MARTY VIRGILIO: MALE PARTICIPANT: MARTY VIRGILIO: Yes, we're working that. We're working that.

We've been working that all night and trying to see what's better information we can get off those

(inaudible, possibly CHUCK CASTO: Yes, who are you working

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110

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 1 18 19 2< 21 22

that through? MALE PARTICIPANT: We're working it

K>

MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: Chuck, CHUCK

Yes.

Okay.

Hang on.

do you need anything else from us? CASTO: No. You're working the

Muller issue, right? MALE PARTICIPANT: Yes, we've got Trautman

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1il

1
2 3 4

on

the

line now,

and we're

going

to start

engaging

wi th him. CHUCK We're done. MALE PARTICIPANT: Thank you, Marty. You're welcome. CASTO: Okay. Thank you, sir.

E 7
2 S

MARTY VIRGILIO:

IC
ill 12
131

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112 11 2 3 Trautman. (CONFERENCE CALL INITIATED) STEVE TRAUTMAN: Hello. This is Steve

I was trying to reach Dan Dorman. MARTY VIRGILIO: Steve, it's Marty

Virgilio and Dan. STEVE 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 1 17 1 19 20 21 22 23 24 2 issue. Jaczko doing? MARTY VIRGILIO: this morning? STEVE TRAUTMAN: Well, we've been in a All right. How are you TRAUTMAN: Hey, Marty, how you

while working on this thing based on the events of the day. Hey, because we have been trying to reach Chairman we've got ourselves Japan. the in a bit of an

argument with the NRC reps in have some engagement with

And we'd like to to have a

Chairman

direct hashout on this thing. MALE PARTICIPANT: Okay, but we haven't

briefed the Chairman yet. STEVE TRAUTMAN: Chairman on what yet? MALE PARTICIPANT: On this particular You haven't briefed the

Here's my characterization of where we are. STEVE TRAUTMAN: MALE Yes. Naval Reactors

PARTICIPANT: NEALR.GROSS

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113 1 2
3

developed a set of talking points that included what actions needed to be taken and what consequence would occur if the actions weren't taken. NRC developed a our assumptions and the

set of talking points saying this is

with regard to the reactors and spent-fuel pools, 8 if nothing changes, this is what we see as

consequence.
And are they the same?

9
12

K>
13 14 1.5 16 17 18 19 2G 21 22 they're 50 miles STEVE nearly, for TRAUTMAN: Okay. I mean, to me,

they're protective

identical. actions.

You talked about We talked about

contamination out there, and that was -MALE exactly right. STEVE TRAUTMAN: So, the y're not apples PARTICIPANT: Exactly. That's

23
24 2E

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114 1] 2 3 and oranges -or they're not apples and apples. Right.

MALE PARTICIPANT:

Sl-\

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 .19 20
21 22

23 24 25 way.

MALE PARTICIPANT:

No,

I don't see it

that

STEVE TRAUTMAN:

And I wouldn't argue that

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115 1 2 3 4 you wouldn't. ground in I'm just telling you my guys on the

the conversation with the Ambassador,

that's

what they came away with. MALE PARTICIPANT: STEVE TRAUTMAN: Okay. Okay? And so, that's the

6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

kind of engagement we're trying to have. you that I don't believe the consequences

I agree with that both of

our organizations have laid out are different. MALE PARTICIPANT: Ambassador, citizens, people?" STEVE TRAUTMAN: Now, obviously, honest is you know, Right. And I think the

once again

focused on the U.S.

trying to say,

"What should I do for our

people can argue the same point many different ways. And if good we end up losing one of these plants, possibility
--

there's a of these

we're

going

to

lose

all

plants

MALE PARTICIPANT:
STEVE TRAUTMAN:

Yes.
-because you're going

to have to be away.

And, is

right now,

everything I've it was

seen for your consequence based on Plant 2, if

based on a single, So, bit.

I recall correctly.

I worry

that we may be undershooting here a little

And the whole issue that we're trying get to is, if this thing goes down badly in

to

the near

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116 1 2 3 4
5 6

future,

there's

lot

of

American

citizens,

both

dependents of military as well as others,

that we're

going to have to deal with and give advice to. MALE


do you see as

PARTICIPANT:

We're with you.

What

the next step? Well, there is a Deputies

STEVE TRAUTMAN:

7 8 9

meeting today at eight o'clock. MALE PARTICIPANT: Ri ht.

11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2
21

MALE PARTICIPANT: who has joined us, is going

Yes. to be

Now Mike Weber, in that eight

o'clock meeting. STEVE TRAUTMAN: MALE PARTICIPANT:


to be at a hearing --

Okay. The Chairman is going

22
23

STEVE TRAUTMAN:
MALE

Okay.
--

PARTICIPANT:

downtown

this

24 25

morning.

So,

Mike's with us. do you know Steve?

Mike,

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117 1 2 3 4 5 doing? MIKE WEBER: Okay. So, I'm sorry, go ahead. possibly "Things MIKE WEBER: Yes. Morning, Hi, Mike. Steve. How are you

STEVE TRAUTMAN:

STEVE TRAUTMAN: MIKE WEBER:

(Inaudible,

are")

better than they are in Japan. STEVE TRAUTMAN: Yes, I agree with that.

9 10 1i 12 13 14 the table, guidance picture

So, is has of

that's what I see as the issue here on view of what the NRC and what our

at least our guys' been to the is

Ambassador,

this

has been

they're not

consistent.

15
16 17 18 19 20 21 MALE PARTICIPANT: Right, right.

22
23 24 251

(5>
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118

3
4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that's -MALE

MALE PARTICIPANT: As an aside, while you all have been focused on the reactor, this morning we have been focused on the spent-fuel pools. STEVE TRAUTMAN: Yes, I agree with you, PARTICIPANT: And we have just

provided to our guys over there a list a dozen actions that we are going

of maybe a half to be making

recommendations

to TEPCO -Okay. -on what's the next

STEVE TRAUTMAN: MALE PARTICIPANT:

best step with regard to those pools. STEVE TRAUTMAN: I mean I agree with you.

Both the spent-fuel pools and the reactors need to be dealt with. MALE PARTICIPANT: STEVE TRAUTMAN: MALE PARTICIPANT: Yes. It's not either/or here. And it sounds like

they've lost the integrity of the walls on the Unit 4 pool. STEVE TRAUTMAN: MALE PARTICIPANT: NEALR.GROSS
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Yes. SO, it is just fuel at

(202) 234-4433

119 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 1 19 2 21 22 23 24 2 do that be -that. So, how do we bring this to conclusion, so awareness. STEVE TRAUTMAN: All right. I appreciate best this point. STEVE TRAUTMAN: MALE PARTICIPANT: recommendations on how Yes, So, they sir. we've provided our should be dealing

with that. STEVE TRAUTMAN: MALE Okay. So, just for your

PARTICIPANT:

that the Ambassador feels like we're on the same page? MALE PARTICIPANT: Well, Mike is here and

Mike will be on the eight o'clock. STEVE TRAUTMAN: I don't want you guys Yes, but that's going to

to have to unscrew this meeting. We've got

disagreement

during the Deputies'

to get to the Ambassador and come to some unity prior to that eight o'clock meeting. MALE via Or is a PARTICIPANT: call with the And you're wanting to Chairman and Admiral

Donald?

there some other way you -The bottom line is, from

STEVE TRAUTMAN: my standpoint, if

we can come to agreement that we're we just need to figure out how to

on the same page,

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120

1
2 3

get that word back to the --

I mean,

if

you want,

we

can all hook up together with the NRC guy right now on a bridge, your guy in Japan, so that we can all come then, they can go in to the

to some mutual agreement. 5 6 7 8 9 1 1 12 1 14 15 16 17 18 19 2 21 22 23 2 2 call in Casto on with a unified front eight o'clock meeting.

And,

to the Ambassador prior

MALE PARTICIPANT: STEVE TRAUTMAN: MALE PARTICIPANT:

Let's do it. Okay. Should we set up the

bridge or do you want to do it? STEVE TRAUTMAN: MALE Let me think a minute. We're Steve. Say that again, please? We're getting Chuck trying to get

PARTICIPANT:

Chuck Casto on the phone now, STEVE TRAUTMAN: MALE

PARTICIPANT:

the phone.

Chuck Casto is

the head of our

team over in

the Embassy. STEVE TRAUTMAN: Okay. And I will figure

out how to get my -bridge to ask Mr. I'm sorry -

I will ask my command-and-control to your DOE -or,

Muller to call in Will

NRC EOC.

that work?

Do you guys

want to set that bridge up? MALE PARTICIPANT: STEVE TRAUTMAN: right now. Yes, that will work. I'll have him

All right.

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121

a
2

Yes,

that's the number,

please. that phone

All right,

we'll have him make

call.

11 12 12

17

19 2C 21 22 23 24

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122 1 2 3 (CONFERENCE CALL INITIATED) STEVE TRAUTMAN: Mr. Muller This is be Steve Trautman. calling in on a

should

bridge imminently. MALE PARTICIPANT: Okay. We're still

trying to get Chuck on the line. STEVE TRAUTMAN: MALE Headquarters 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2C 21 22 23 24 25 this, Mike, there? CHUCK CASTO: MALE Yes, I'm her e. Okay. I think we're Mr. bridge. MALE PARTICIPANT: Mr. Muller, you have Okay. This is the

PARTICIPANT:

Operations Officer.

The team from Japan

has called into the ET conference. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: Okay. Thank you.

Muller just joined the

Trautman on the bridge. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: Still on the bridge. Casto, are you

Chuck

PARTICIPANT:

all patched up together. MALE if PARTICIPANT: Okay, if I could try

that's okay with you? Go for it. Okay. What we've been

MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT:

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2 3

4
5 6

9 10
11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CHUCK CASTO: with you on the phone call. MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: Okay. Urgent is to Yes, and we agreed on that

That's urgent.

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i9m qq4-44.on

126 get that done. 2 3 1 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19

6K>

MALE 20 22 21 yes, that is

PARTICIPANT:

Agree.

Recovery

is,

sort of a different question. MALE PARTICIPANT: It is, but I think So, we

25
(202) 234-4433

we've got mixes with apples and oranges here. certainly agree that your paper says PEGs of NEAL R. GROSS
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greater

www.ni ealrgross.com

127

2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12

*m

than 1 rem TEDE and greater

mmmm

than 5 rems EDE exceeded

K>

K>
13 14 15 16 .17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MALE PARTICIPANT: headquarters can help me. on this? about still on I'm the looking 7:30 Which one then? Maybe

What is

the recommendation talking Is that

at page

5 that we're Time.

Eastern

Daylight

valid,

that recommendation? NEAL R.GROSS


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128 1 DAN DORMAN: This is Dan Dorman.


I don't have that

I would have to --

7:30

3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

in

front of me. MALE PARTICIPANT: Well, it's the one that

you issued this morning has the same language. MALE PARTICIPANT: The one that we sent

over this morning was -r-

11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 .21 22 23 24 25 from shift 07:30 MALE PARTICIPANT: we had, had Yes, that in that discussion that we midwere

KI

yesterday, we

earlier

yesterday,

information

inferring to represent an ex-vessel core condition in Unit 2.

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129

I
2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 1 16 17 18 1 20 21 22 23 24 25 we've got Which one is Chairman. us. that time.

MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT:

Chairman coming up. That was the driver at

We subsequently had information about 150 Unit 2. So, I think this morning we were

pounds in

looking at just the one spent-fuel pool. I understand Chairman Jaczko has joined

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT:

Yes.

Good morning, Chairman. Good morning, Mr.

MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT:

How are you? Mr. Chairman. which one, Dan?

So,

valid for right now? DAN DORMAN: I think the one that we sent

over this morning that says evacuation out to 50 miles is the latest information. MALE PARTICIPANT: But let me interject

for a moment for the Chairman's benefit. Chairman, our team we have Naval on in Japan, Reactors on, here and at

and we're

headquarters of NRC. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: MALE PARTICIPANT: NEALR.GROSS


COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701

Okay. And the issue is that

(202) 234-4433

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130 1 the Ambassador thinks that Naval Reactors and NRC have provided different recommendations to the Ambassador. 3 4 we're 6 7 NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: MALE wrestling PARTICIPANT: with are, first, Okay. And the issues priority that on

place

taking care of the reactors and the spent-fuel pools, which are in much degraded condition this morning than they were last night. And, then, if -They're

9 1 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 consequence priority.

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: in more degraded condition? MALE PARTICIPANT: Yes.

I'm sorry?

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: MALE PARTICIPANT: piece.

Okay. And, also, then, the

management

But it's

a matter of

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO:

Okay.

196
2C 21 21 23 24 25 seeing STEVE TRAUTMAN: Because everything we're both at the

this morning on media and reports, NEAL R.GROSS

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1 .11

2 3

6 7

8
9

12 13 12

15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Japanese We did provide information to the Ambassador about

four or five hours ago that says the information that we have, would based on the spent-fuel condition, if Unit 4,

support

evacuation up

to 50 miles

the wind

changes,

which we don't expect before the weekend. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: Well, are the to 50

currently

issuing an evacuation NEALR.GROSS

order

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701

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132 1 miles?

2
3

MUO-mm

EM

5
7 8] 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24.

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: on what we know, evacuation? MARTY VIRGILIO: This is What assessment of those Marty. trying No.

So,

right now,

based

would we be recommending

a 50-mile

No,

Chairman.

we're

to

do is

is

get

an

from the site as to what facilities. It's about

the condition we were 24

where

hours ago. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: MARTY VIRGILIO: Okay. We haven't made a

different recommendation,

but what we have is

a lot of

unknowns that we're trying to make known. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: are leaning forward here,
get better or get worse?

At this point,

if

we

do we think this is

going to

MARTY VIRGILIO:

It's

going to get worse

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133 if 2 3 you think about the spent-fuel 4 doesn't have a spent-fuel pools. pool Right now, anymore. It

Unit

appears

that the walls have crumbled and you've just

got fuel there. 5 1 NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: MARTY VIRGILIO: 7 8 1 9 1 1 12 13 14 appears fuel Okay. and 3, it

And Units 1, 2, levels in

that they're at various and it doesn't

the spent-

pool,

appear that

they're making

up the levels.

U E

K3~

22 22 23 24 25 is STEVE TRAUTMAN: Steve Trautman again. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: Yes. Yes, Mr. Chairman, this

NEAL R.GROSS
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134 1 STEVE TRAUTMAN: you have just said. And I so, agree with everything my view of what the

2 3

Ambassador needs is said is

two pieces.

Exactly what you just

7 8 4 9 5

S*_

MARTY

VIRGILIO:

And,

Chairman,

where is to

think we're complementary with Naval Reactors 12 17 11 have provided some good advice the core, with and regard I

they the

reactors provided 17

and protecting the best

think we've to the

advice we

can with

regard

spent-fuel pool. 26 1 NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: three sentences, tell me what I'm sorry. the message is So, in

23
we're delivering to the Ambassador. 24 MALE disagreeing. PARTICIPANT: We and NR are not

25

NEAL R.GROSS
I-I . -

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 9n tr.i7A1 1A1A~tW1KMrTfNKJ nr

,A.AA no. 1 .n..^c.rt

ii
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11
12

14

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1 2C
21

23

NEAL R.GROSS
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136 simpler messages.

1 1 I. 1 1 1 1 1
2 2

NEAL R. GROSS
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

137 1 2 3 4 Chuck, NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: do you have any good -All right. I think,

are you guys getting

any access at all? CHUCK CASTO: Very little. Okay. Here's where going to get

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: I think we are: 7 8 9 1 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2 better. this is not,

in my mind,

Does anyone disagree with that? MALE PARTICIPANT: NRC CHAIRMAN No. This is going we, to I

JACZKO:

progress to the point at which we probably have, think,

have to assume at this point that we're going

to have three reactors out of control and possibly up to six spent-fuel pools. MALE PARTICIPANT: Agreed. I think we need to

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO:

take whatever actions are necessary to deal with that. That is the message I think we need to deliver to the as soon as of possible. U.S. If that involves need a to

Ambassador general

evacuation

citizens,

we

instruct that to be done immediately. Does anyone disagree with that? ADMIRAL DONALD: Donald at Naval Reactors. I agree with you. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: Okay. Let's get Chairman, this is Admiral

NEAL R.GROSS
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(202) . 234-4433

138 1 2 3 line with that message to the Ambassador. Ops Center, Admiral I need you to get me on the to the White House

Donald

immediately. MALE PARTICIPANT: Yes, sir.

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: 7 MR. MULLER: This is

I need Muller.

That still 9 10 11 12 13 1 15 16 1 18 19 2 21 22 23 24 25 I want to be

doesn't take care of the cores

and mobilizing their military to do so. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: worried about the U.S. Right now, citizens. I'm going That's a

secondary matter with the core. MALE PARTICIPANT: Mr. Chairman, I don't

think we could practically get them out of here. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: Well, and, that's what then,
--

that information going out,

we are

going to have to deal with how we deal with that.

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: NEAL R. GROSS


(202) 234-4433

Okay.

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701

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139 1 2 3 considering MALE PARTICIPANT: actions, moving Second, in the we have to be direction of

actions to evacuate American citizens. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: fine. I'm fine with that. CHUCK CASTO: This is To what degree? Okay, good. That's

6 7 4 5 9 of Japan?

Chuck Casto. the American citizens out

To what degree

NRC think, 1 1 1 15 16 17 18 19 2 21 22 23 24 25 well,

CHAIRMAN Chuck,

JACZKO: got

At to

this

point, me

I a

you've

give

recommendation here.

I'm not there and I'm don't have front of me.

any information right in

NEAL R.GROSS
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

140

2
3 -and I

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO:


appreciate that,

Okay.

Well,

I think
I think

Admiral

Donald --

4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 1 12 13
14

that's not something that the NRC can do. ADMIRAL DONALD: Correct. What I need to do is knows I what our

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: just make sure that is at

the White House this point.

recommendation

And

appreciate

that that's going to lead to a lot of activity and a lot of other action, but I think we need to get that

message as quickly as possible. ADMIRAL DONALD: I agree. For your background,


now what we're

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO:


other countries -I think

right

15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 2 25

talking Japan,

about

is

the

status

of

U.S.. personnel outside or

in

not necessarily

evacuations If we still

around

the facility, et cetera. miles have U.S. is that the appropriate as a message,

believe that 50 then we can also there's broader

distance, but

I think

personnel issues that need to be addressed. BILL BORCHARDT: Yes, Chairman, this is

Bill Borchardt. If out to 50 this happened in That the U.S., be our we would go evacuation

miles.

would

recommendation. NEALR.GROSS
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW.

141 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 the NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: BILL BORCHARDT: appropriate guidance to Okay.

And I think that would be give the Ambassador to

pass on at this point. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: MALE PARTICIPANT: Okay. But I would think

you're also passing out KI to everyone else as well. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE have enough KI. PARTICIPANT: Not necessarily. I don't know that we

12 13 14

15 16 17 18 19 2 2 22 23 24 25 point on No. Is that correct? PARTICIPANT: Chairman, Just to put a finer

MALE 2,

also the spent-fuel pools. And the spent-fuel

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: NEAL R. GROSS


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142 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 that, this at far as the pools. MALE PARTICIPANT: is Chairman, 50 I think as as a

evacuation I

concerned, that is

miles for

starting

point,

think

suitable

your

recommendation. group is what

I think, again,

the DC and the larger and

going to have to discuss how do we deal do we put in place to start

procedures

moving

toward the larger evacuation if

that could have to occur

this thing goes really badly. NRC CHAIRMAN this to point, lean as JACZKO: I said, in I that Yes. And I think

think we want at regard, that at

point

forward

13

this point

14
15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Send it message.

*
MALE PARTICIPANT: Okay. So, that is a fourth NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO:

Okay? MALE PARTICIPANT: If somebody could type an email, just so I

those up and put get them right?

those to me in

MALE PARTICIPANT: 0 MALE PARTICIPANT: to NR, too.

We're working on them. Send it here, too.

NRC CHAIRMAN just be clear.

JACZKO:

And again,

let me

Does anybody disagree with those four NEAL R.GROSS


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143 1 2 3 4 Donald. I agree with those four statements. 6 7


NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: Okay. Thank you.

statements?
MALE PARTICIPANT: ADMIRAL DONALD: Do it. Chairman, this is Admiral

i0 11 12 13 14 19

12
17

18
19 20

21
22 23 24 25

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144
1
2 3 4 (CONFERENCE CALL INITIATED) MALE PARTICIPANT: This is the

Headquarters Operations Officer. Chairman, we have

Yes. sir. Stand

Is there a specific individual 6


7 8

you would like to speak with? NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: MALE PARTICIPANT: NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO:

1 12 13 1 1 16 17 18 1 2 21 22 23 24 2 everybody by.

MALE PARTICIPANT: NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: MALE PARTICIPANT:

Roger that,

Chairman Jaczko, can transfer your cell

when you're ready, sir,

from the Admiral

to a separate

conference bridge along with the White House Situation Room. NRC CHAIRMAN just JACZKO: so we have If we can keep

else on,

the

background,

that's fine. MALE PARTICIPANT: All right, sir. You

want everyone on the ET? NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: MALE PARTICIPANT: Yes. sir.

Roger that,

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145 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 bridge, sir. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: had a chance to catch their Now that everybody's is there anybody please. MALE PARTICIPANT: NRC CHAIRMAN Okay, sir. Again, now that am I speaking, NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: Just one voice

Admiral Donald or myself. MALE PARTICIPANT: Put a mute on that,

JACZKO:

everybody's had a chance to catch their breath -still on the bridge? MALE PARTICIPANT: You're still on

the

breath,

who disagrees with those four points? MALE PARTICIPANT: Mr. Chairman, we were

just talking about the fourth point. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: MALE PARTICIPANT: Yes.

And I guess it

20
21 22 23 24 25 NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: Yes, that's a

decision we'll leave up to the Administration. MALE PARTICIPANT: Okay. How they do that.

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

146

1
2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 1 18 19 2 21 22 23 24 25 26 here. sir.

But,

again,

does

anyone disagree

with me

making those four statements? MALE PARTICIPANT: BILL BORCHARDT: NO. No disagreement here,

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: .BILL BORCHARDT:

Thank you. Bill Borchardt

Chairman,

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO:

Yes?

K>

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147 1 2 3 you on? ADMIRAL DONALD: 5 6 7 8 9, 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2E conference very soon. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: MALE PARTICIPANT: Okay, great. MALE working on it. PARTICIPANT: Mr. Chairman, they're I'm on. (CONFERENCE CALL INITIATED) NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: Admiral Donald, are

&

I
They do have the Situation Room on the

line and they'll relay that message. MALE PARTICIPANT: Hey, Chairman, this is

the Headquarters Operations officer. is coming up on the

Yes.

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148

2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

*7
How are you? to relay to you.

Greg, this is

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO:

I have

four points I've got

I want to get them clear.

a couple of other people on the line just to make sure we get them right.

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2 say, right now it's reactor at Daiichi or is NRC CHAIRMAN And, No. 2-Greg, is this for the

this broader than that? JACZKO: I would just say

broader to the entire site. Okay. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: Yes, the entire, the

reactors and the spent fuel at Daiichi. No. 2


--

And that seven o'clock this morning? NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: of 6:45 this morning. NEAL R.GROSS
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is

as of,

let's

I'd say probably as

www,nealrqross.com

149 1 Got it.

2(
3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2 evacuation 50 miles. NEAL R. GROSS
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Actually,

No.

3.or No.

4? 3: recommend

I'm on No.

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150 1 2

31

5 6 7 8

9
ii 12 12 12

15 16 17 18 19

20
21
22

23
24 25 ADMIRAL DONALD:
And, plus -this is

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151 1 2 3 4
Admiral Donald of Naval Reactors
--

the

effort

that

it's

going

to take

and

the time

that

it's

going to we really

take to be able to do something like that,

have to get things moving sooner rather than later. NRC CHAIRMAN points clear? JACZKO: are those

7 8 9 5 1 6 check them back off for you.

They

are,

Greg.

Let

me

11 12 13 14 1 1 17 18 19 20 21, 22 23 24 25

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152 1 2 3 4

6 7 8 5 9 1 11 12 13 14 1 1 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 This is MALE PARTICIPANT: the conference, sir. Hey, has joined

good morning.

I've got Greg and Admiral Donald of

Naval Reactors and a few others on the line. I guess I'll turn to you, Greg. Hi, Greg, to turn

those four items back over to John, NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO:

Okay.

Hi there,

Greg.

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO:

There's

four

items

that right now I have concurrence from my team here at NEAL R. GROSS
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153 1 2 3 4 the NCR as well as my team in Japan, as well as

concurrence of Naval Reactors.

6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 it is important. So, up there. And, No. 4, given the likelihood that I'm sorry, Greg. You broke

You're going to have to go start again. And I just spoke tof and

he's going to get on the line now. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: Okay. sounds like this

Because it

I think he's going to be added. Each time I repeat

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: I get better at it. (Laughter.) MALE PARTICIPANT: was that last? NEAL R. GROSS

Greg,

I'm sorry,

what

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154

I
2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 is going

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: MALE transmission? PARTICIPANT:

I'm sorry? What was that last

I didn't copy. I'm sorry.

to be joining us momentarily.

So,

think

we'd wait. MALE PARTICIPANT: Can I ask one Okay. Got it. in the interim? and do

question

Have you chatted with your colleagues they concur with your assessment? NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO:

at DOE,

11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2 you. possibly protective (inaudible). just here. wanted

I have not.

We can

work to get them on the line as well. it

I just thought

was important to relay this as soon as possible. MALE PARTICIPANT: sure that No, I no, I agree. blocked I up

to make

hadn't

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: get some sleep tonight. It sounds like it MALE "work So, I

I actually tried to got woken up to this.

was (inaudible). PARTICIPANT: after" or We'll DOE (inaudible, through our

"factor")

(inaudible,

possibly

"interest")

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO:

Okay.

Good.

Thank

NEAL R. GROSS
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE, N.W.

155 1 2 3 4 NRC again. CHAIRMAN Yes, Okay. JACZKO: you on yet? I'm here, Good. Okay, I'll start John.

5 6 7 S
9

11

13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
25

6,--

(202) 234-4433

I
NEAL R. GROSS

I And
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156 1 2 3 4 5 Chuck and furthermore, it appears that this event will likely

only get worse, And

and not better, at this point. again, if I can just have disagree my team, those

everybody,

anybody

with

statements as I've said them? MALE PARTICIPANT: went to Chuck stepped out. and we have no, He the

6
7 8 9 10 1i 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 would see only about Japan, worst Japan? likely the to deliver.

talk to the Ambassador,

folks in

the room have no comments. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: So, Okay. Thank you. I wanted

those are the four messages

ADMIRAL from Naval Reactors.

DONALD:

This

is

Admiral

Donald

And I agree with those messages. Greg, to get worse, not of when you and say it's

better, U.S.

thinking from

general

evacuation

citizens

I ask, scenario

once again,

what do you see now as the the impact will be on

as far as what

NRC a

CHAIRMAN worst

JACZKO:

At

this

point,

scenario

probably

being

three

reactors eventually having, a meltdown. you would So,

for lack of a better term,

the reactors would likely eventually, breach primary containment and

eventually

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157 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 have some type of predict release. Again, it's difficult to coupled with in a degraded Those

the magnitude of that released, pools

potentially up to six spent-fuel

condition, possibly with spent-fuel pool fires. are all significant events.

11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2 down, then, Three six spent-fuel ponds go up in reactors flames. melting And what, if

would be the impact for Tokyo,

for example,

the wind kept blowing in that direction? NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: At this point, I

think I would still

go with the 50 miles right now is But it

what we see as the actual direct evacuation. is uncertain and it

would possibly have to get beyond NEAL R. GROSS

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158
1 2 3 4 5 50 miles. to Tokyo. But, again, we looked last night at one I don't know that we've run a model out yet

reactor having essentially a core melt. out to 50 miles. If you add in it

That took us it

two other reactors,

6
7 8 9 I 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24

doesn't necessarily -doses. And so, you

essentially adds additional go that' much in. And a

don't necessarily an additional

farther with adding spent-fuel you out

reactor

fire doesn't seem to be one that would take to 50 miles at this point, based on our

analyses. But I would caution -fourth statement -part of this and, is again, for the we

just simply

just don't know the condition of the core. know the condition of the spent fuel. the direct modeling. So, these are, but, we think, details to really,

We don't

We don't have

truly do very accurate

conservative it's possible

estimates at this point, we're off by a little significantly-larger important to start

you know,

bit in

a way that could have a So, = I think it's

implication. thinking =

29
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159

2 3 continue

i think that's something that we would have to to work through and work with the various

parties that would need to be involved to do something like that. 6 7 8 impact on the U.S. homelands,
So,

there

would

be

no

Hawaii,

Alaska? And again, I

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO:

No.

would ask anybody on my team here to concur or refute 1 11 12 13 1 1 16 17 18 19 2 21 22 that statement.

23 24 2 NEAL R.GROSS
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160

Did you say that

his

aware of this information now? NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: I believe he has

been given by the NRC team the same points that I just reiterated to you.

~Greg,
NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO:

it'Is Hi. those

C
tells you

When you give us points, public

are you saying that you see those points being or those are just what your data

right now? NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: I'm sorry,


Those points are --

I didn't quite follow that.

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1 2 3

6 7

9 10 11 12 13 14 1 16 17 18 1 2 21 22
23

[
your view, Greg, the cause of that?

So, on the fire in

do you guys,

what's

24 25

Unit 4 last night and

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162 1 2 NRC Marty or Mike, if CHAIRMAN JACZKO: If we can have, I

you could answer that question?

3
4 5

have some of our technical folks on the line. Mike, can you answer that question? Can you repeat the question,

MIKE WEBER: please?

7j
9
1 1 12

_What
MIKE WEBER:

do you assess was

the cause of the fire in Unit 4 last night?

MALE PARTICIPANT: MIKE WEBER: Yes.


in spent fuel rather than --

13
14 1 16 17 18 19 2 21 22 23 24 25 the call? structure collapsed. pile. is

Okay.

So,

it

is

MIKE

WEBER:

That's

right.

The

pool

no longer in So,

existence.

The walls have a

you have spent fuel sitting there in

Yes.

Okay.

Is

State on

MALE

PARTICIPANT:

State

is

not

on

the

call.
Okay. MALE PARTICIPANT: But wi e have our team

NEAL R.GROSS
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163 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 1 12 13 14 1 16 17 18
19
/

there

in

Japan,

and

they

are

working

to

brief

the

Ambassador.

UReactors, DoD channels? ADMIRAL Deputy minutes, brief the DONALD: CNO just

Yes.

Okay.

And

how have you guys communicated

this through

Sir, in

I've

just

had my of

the

last

couple

and the CNO will get it

up to the Secretary

of Defense. Okay. ADMIRAL DONALD: I've in also got Admiral

Willard from PACOM calling in, here, and I'll

a couple of minutes

brief him as well. Okay. So, John, Okay.

I think we ought to go ahead and least, if noti

get on the phone witat and Yes.

on?

20 21 22 23 2 2 Greg, will is on.

don't

believe

so.

Okay. you just type up your four

points and send them over? NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: NEAL R. GROSS
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701

Okay,

I will.

(202) 234-4433

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164 1 grab, 3 4 5And 6 Hey, Yes? Then, M, why don't we

why don't we hang up and then grab we can ge

and see if

Yes. we'll get


--

8
9 10 11 12 We probably should. Should we the Deputies?

This is
approach the 0800 (inaudible),

What do you thinkl

13
1 1 117 18
.

NWell, in light of this, I

I have a --

probably,

think we need

to make sure that

there's high-level attention on it.


Yes.

So,

you

and

can

get

together and talk about who should be there. M do. I'll ENE M, Good. That's what we'll

19
20 21 22 23 2 25

come down and see you now, Okay. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: And, folks, I'm

scheduled to be on the Hill at 10 o'clock to testify. Or, actually, I'm sorry, 9:30. So, if necessary, I

will cancel that,

but would like to proceed with that, NEALR.GROSS

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165 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 1 16 17 18 19 best I can. it's in this, and to which committee? NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: the House on, it Energy and Commerce and I'll But, have Mike Weber available, if you need me, if you need us.

of course,

contact me directly. Are you testifying on

was ostensibly a budget hearing,

but it

will likely be all about Japan.

Yes,

obviously.

And

an open hearing? NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: Yes. At this point, unless

I would not make any of these messages public, you disagree. But you'll get on the eight o'clock CVTs (phonetic)? NRC Yes. Actually, and I'm downtown. It it might be easier, might be easier if CHAIRMAN JACZKO: Yes, I'll

be able

to

do

the

I'm at home I can just

come to the White House.

20
21 22 23 24 2 birth?

/MALE

-sure.
What's your date of And what's your Social?

PARTICIPANT:

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: MALE PARTICIPANT:

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: NEAL R. GROSS


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166 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 2 2 26
(201 234-4433

MALE

PARTICIPANT:

And,

then,

Greg,

always spell your last name wrong. NRC CHAIRMAN cat, Z, as in zebra, K-O. PARTICIPANT: Okay, we'll get you JACZKO: It's J-A-C, as in

MALE waved-in now. NRC either be there

CHAIRMAN or I'll

JACZKO: just be

Okay. on a

And call.

I'll I'm to

looking at the time. get there by 8:00. line. But, if I can, So,

I may not actually be able I'll

just probably be on the

I'll

get there. Okay. Okay? be right down. Okay, thanks.

MALE PARTICIPANT:

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: I'll Okay.

-EMALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT:

Thanks, Mr.

guys.

Chairman? Yes?

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO:

Could you call back to

the Ops Center on a circuit line? NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: MALE PARTICIPANT: ADMIRAL Donald. DONALD: Okay. Right.

Thank you. Okay. This is Admiral

I intend to (inaudible, possibly "secure"). MALE PARTICIPANT: Roger that, sir.

NEAL R. GROSS
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167 1 2 3 4 5 McDermott. 7 8 6 9 JOSH BATKIN: Hey, Brian. So, you've (CONFERENCE CALL INITIATED) MALE PARTICIPANT: up on the ET bridge. JOSH BATKIN: Hello. Hi, Josh. This is Brian Josh Batkin is coming

BRIAN McDERMOTT:

spoken with the Chairman? BRIAN MCDERMOTT: JOSH Chairman, then? IAN (phoretic). BATKIN: Say it You've again? spoken with the

I just saw your four points. (phonetic): Josh, this is Ian

1 1 2 1 16 17

JOSH BATKIN: 18 19 2 21 22 23 24 25 JOSH BATKIN: made or that is doing press as well? IAN: No.

Okay.

Okay.

So,

are

we

Okay.

So,

was

a clecision

our recommendation to the group?

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1 2
3 JOSH BATKIN: interesting night, IAN: I guess. Yes, sir. That's one way to put Okay. Wow, you guys had an

5-

4
5 6 7

MALE PARTICIPANT: it. JOSH Thank you. Do you engaged? earlier? MALE PARTICIPANT: the Admiral Donald call. JOSH BATKIN: Okay. Was it know when BATKIN: All

8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 much.

right.

Good

work.

the Chairman was

first

when Admiral Donald called or was it

It

was concurrent with

So,

he got a little

bit of rest before today starts? MALE about an hour ago. JOSH BATKIN: Okay. Great. Well, So, and thank PARTICIPANT: Yes. We engaged him

certainly that was you.

the right

thing to do.

All right.

Hang in

there.

Thank you very

MALE PARTICIPANT: JOSH BATKIN: Yes?

Hey,

Josh?

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169

3. 4

-JOSH 7
8

BATKIN:

Okay. So,
--

MALE PARTICIPANT:
four points on the CVTs call

I'll

use those same

9 11 1i 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 call, Mr. through I don't

JOSH BATKIN:

Okay.
--

MALE PARTICIPANT:

as our position,

and

expect

any pushback

from

the other

agencies

because, call.

you know,

we've already had the substantive

JOSH BATKIN: loop with that as well?

Okay.

And DOE was

in

the

MALE PARTICIPANT: JOSH BATKIN: MALE the PMP

Naval Reactors was on. right. We're going back And

Right,

PARTICIPANT: (phonetic)

to get DOE onboard. to Pete Lyons

we've also D'Agostino.

forwarded

the email

and Tom

JOSH BATKIN: Poneman is

Okay.

You might,

for that

usually on it. All right. you know, play the

MALE PARTICIPANT: JOSH BATKIN:

And,

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170 1 2 3 4 role. folks; have So, just you would want to make sure that our folks, our PNT (phonetic) folks,

our modeling

coordinated closely with them, you know, absolutely

and to determine in agreement or

whether they're,

have any questions before that call. 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 17 our folks? MALE PARTICIPANT: JOSH BATKIN: Yes. They would be part citizens out of of Our folks in Japan? MALE PARTICIPANT: JOSH BATKIN: Understood.

And what are we doing with

MALE PARTICIPANT: the broader preparations Japan.

to get U.S.

17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 John JOSH BATKIN: MALE Monager and Okay. Let me were clarify that. 45

PARTICIPANT: some others

going

about

minutes ago to the meeting with NISA and TEPCO. and TEPCO were requesting information

NISA and

recommendations

on how to address NEAL R. GROSS

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171 1 2 3 4 .5 6 7 8 9 i 11 12 13 1 1 16 17 18 1 2 21 22 23 24 2 that report an IAEA the first four units' fuel pool, and particularly

Units 3 and 4, zirconium/water Unit 4

which they described Unit 3 as having a reaction ongoing. pool as that having And they described been substantially no longer

spent-fuel to the

damaged

point

the walls

were

effective at retaining water. JOSH BATKIN: Okay. And our analysis

shows that you can get a fire out of that pool? MALE PARTICIPANT: JOSH BATKIN: Okay. And pools 5 and 6 also Yes.

MALE PARTICIPANT: have declining levels. JOSH BATKIN: Wow.

MALE PARTICIPANT: report that 5 was

Five. having in

Five.

There was levels hour or

decreasing

which would get

to a point

about another

two that would have fuel uncovered in JOSH BATKIN: before you can see a fire? MALE PARTICIPANT: JOSH BATKIN: MALE was Okay. Okay. And,

the Unit 5 pool. then, how long

Don't know. Okay. In was an conjunction operable with diesel

PARTICIPANT: that there

generator on Unit 6 that they could use to inject fuel to the Unit 5.

NEAL R.GROSS
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW.

172 JOSH BATKIN: 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 1 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2 soon, guys. Well, for MALE Okay. But that was an IAEA

PARTICIPANT:

report of information that's now about a day old. JOSH BATKIN: Right, right. Okay. Okay.

let me not distract you. information and for

Thank you very much it until you

the

handling

needed to wake him up.

I appreciate that. Good. right. Talk to you

MALE PARTICIPANT: JOSH BATKIN: All

Thanks. MALE PARTICIPANT: Good.

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173 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2 can get in McDermott. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: Is Hi, Brian. (CONFERENCE CALL INITIATED) MALE PARTICIPANT: Chairman Jaczko being

transferred to the ET conference. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: BRIAN McDERMOTT: Hello. Hi, Chairman. Brian

everybody else on the CVTs call? Yes, we've got folks on

BRIAN McDERMOTT: the CVTs call,

and we've got folks coming together for assistance briefing. CHAIRMAN JACZKO: Okay. Let's

the Commissioners, NRC

postpone that right now. BRIAN McDERMOTT: NRC distract people. CHAIRMAN Well, Okay. I don't want to

JACZKO:

unless you can do it

without

taking away from whatever immediate actions we need to deal with. BRIAN McDERMOTT: to postpone that, sir. Okay. No, I think we're going

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: BRIAN McDERMOTT:

What can I do for you? Is there any way I

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO:

on that CVTs call or do I need to be on a

secure phone? NEAL R.GROSS


COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

174 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 1 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2 NEALR.GROSS
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

BRIAN

McDERMOTT:

You

need

to

be

on

secure videoconference or there in person. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: to get over to the White House. BRIAN McDERMOTT: there? NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: Can you just So,
--

Okay. Okay.

Then, Thanks.

I need

Do you need help to get

gave the information to the White House. just double-back and make sure that

can you it, my

they have

Social and date of birth? BRIAN McDERMOTT: Yes. Okay.

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: BRIAN McDERMOTT:

We'll take care of that. Thank you. Bye.

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: BRIAN McDERMOTT: Bye.

175

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 1i 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 McDermott. got still And be to it, McDermott.

(CONFERENCE CALL INITIATED) BRIAN McDERMOTT: Bruce, this is Brian

BRUCE:

Yes,

Brian? Can you guys connect me assistance on

BRIAN MCDERMOTT: the bridge with please? BRUCE: advised, Okay. I've

the Commissioners'

Stand by, informed that the the

Brian.

I will.

Commissioners' Chairman didn't

assistance

briefing

bridge

want to hold a Commissioners' BRIAN McDERMOTT: BRUCE: So,

assistance briefing. Got it.

the majority of participants

have left the conference. BRIAN McDERMOTT: some hanging on, BRUCE: (Pause.) Okay, the links are now in muted. Okay. everyone. Thank you. This is Brian I'll That's fine. If you've

talk to everybody.

Roger that.

BRIAN McDERMOTT: Good morning,

I realize of the participants still Do we still

that we probably only have some on the call. have some? NEAL R.GROSS

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176 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 well, TOM HIPSCHMAN: the Chairman's Office is here. Okay, Tom. least All one. right, We'll Yes, Tom Hipschman from

BRIAN McDERMOTT:

we've got an audience of at

give you what we have. We're Commissioners' going to its reschedule normal the

assistance call in

format at

a later time this morning.

I just want to update you and we've

on significant events from over the evening, 1 11 12 13 14 1 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 in this point. degraded, explosion got a lot going on right now. going to take questions. The last of pool bottom night. the line: That Unit 4 had So,

we're probably not

serious in a the

explosion to the

resulted point that

degradation spent-fuel the most

building

can no point.

longer retain water. The it walls are, we

That's hear,

salient And,

collapsed. basically

right now,

appears that they have up there, some

the spent-fuel So,

rods heating that's Unit 4. is

indication of smoke. Unit The 2,

all right, spent-fuel

also challenged at at Unit 2 is also

pool

and there's a lot of focus on that. You know, Units 1 and 3 are probably not Right now, in we're running terms of
--

a whole lot better shape. very difficult

sort of

projections

NEALR.GROSS
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.

177 1 2 3 4 5 say 'difficult". term, You end up with a very large source-

and we're having to work with NARAC to do the

actual dose mapping and projections because just the one unit would take you out to 50 miles in PEGs. So, we're working to do that. terms of

6
7

11 12 13 14 15 20 16 1'7 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 21
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~MALE PARTICIPANT:
sometime this morning. BRIAN McDERMOTT:

Sometime.

I thinkk 1Tt2r-

4
5 6 7

--

Sometime

this morning,

very shortly,

they're going to have a CVTS call where

these recommendations are going to be discussed.

8 9
1 1 12 13 1 1 16 17 18 19 2 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R.GROSS
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1~0

/------

HIPSCHMAN:

Brian,

this is

Tom.

Would you like me to send out just a quick 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 be fine, note to the other offices saying that you're going to have a brief later on and I can just give them, you want, I can just give them a brief summary? BRIAN McDERMOTT: Tom. Fine. Yes, that would and if

15
16
2i

18 19 20 21 2.2
23 BRIAN McDNRMOTT : Yes.

24 21 to talk

TOM HIPSCHNAN: about the units and

I'm just basically just talking

going you

about

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180 1 2 3 4 dose working on dose projections and evacuation

recommendations

are under consideration. Right. We're looking at would take

BRIAN McDERMOTT: projections that really

ultimately

into account the spent-fuel pools at all six units -6 TOM HIPSCHMAN: BRIAN McDERMOTT: TOM HIPSCHMAN: note and will, tell them to Okay. -Okay. and three reactors. I'll as send a quick I'm sure they

7
8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

(inaudible),

and mark it

appropriately. Okay. Oh, Thanks, Tom.

BRIAN McDERMOTT: TOM HIPSCHMAN: BRIAN McDERMOTT: TOM HIPSCH-AN: BRIAN McDERMOTT:

thanks for the info.

Okay. Bye. Bye.

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181 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 you doing? CHARLIE MILLER: CHUCK CASTO: All right. I had Miller here. CHUCK CASTO: Hey, Dr. Miller. How are (CONFERENCE CALL INITIATED) MALE PARTICIPANT: on the ET conference. CHARLIE Chuck Casto coming up

Chuck Casto. MILLER: Hi, Chuck. Charlie

I'm just checking in.

told Marty I would try to check in once an hour or so, and, really, I don't think I've done that yet -CHARLIE MILLER:
CHUCK CASTO: --

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 anyhow.

Okay.
for the last two hours,

Of course, we had other activities going on. CHARLIE MILLER: Absolutely. Okay.

20
21 22 23 24 25

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182

1C
11 12 13

'5

KS~

1E 19 2C 21 22 23 CHARLIE MILLER: 25E CHUCK CASTO: Absolutely. also, I conveyed to him

And,

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183 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 11 12 13 14 15 1 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 2 2 him. I know, know, it's CHARLIE MILLER: more concerned about Okay. Did he seem to be that, you know, their they recognize that that may be out of to make that recommendation, but

jurisdiction it up

would leave

to the DC,

you know,

just propose

that to the DC for their call today, CHARLIE MILLER:

this morning.

That's exactly correct.

that recommendation as something

that he wouldn't want to act on? CHUCK CASTO: Yes, he did. That one, you you think

I didn't get the feeling that that one was, something he was just so, looking for. I mean I

what they said was,

you know,

you guys

were telling us the other day that those rates are low and no long-term health effects; now you're coming up

with sending every American out of here. CHARLIE MILLER: to understand is Well, I think what he has

the conditions have degraded for the

last couple of days. CHUCK CASTO: said, you know, Yes, hey, and that's what I at that time, told

we were pool, but

thinking one reactor,

maybe

one spent-fuel

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184 1 2 3 least two CHARLIE MILLER: CHUCK CASTO:


--

Right. it's progressed pools, to at and

reactors,

multiple

spent-fuel

maybe four reactors and four spent-fuel pools. 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 you know, changed. CHARLIE MILLER: clarity on that: it's Yes. Yes, I mean, I think, it's yes, the CHARLIE MILLER: CHUCK CASTO: Right. that condition has

You know,

our understanding, So,

fourth reactor has been defueled.

a spent-

fuel pool leaning toward a negative problem. CHUCK geometry on that. CHARLIE MILLER: Right. 2, Now, but I think, though, Chuck, for CASTO: Yes, and, then, the lost

combine that with No. if you get is that

the Ambassador, again. And

a chance our

to talk

to him were

that

recommendations

based upon the conditions at the time and the actions, as well as we knew them, may be taking to try that we thought the Japanese to use seawater. But it's

obvious over the last number of days that the actions either haven't have been been discontinued, anyway, haven't and worked, and have

augmented

conditions

gotten worse. NEAL R.GROSS


COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

185
So, as conditions have gotten worse, we

have had to change our recommendation to make sure -CHUCK CASTO: Yes. -that we're prudent in

CHARLIE MILLER: protecting American citizenry. CHUCK essentially what I CASTO: told him,

Yes,

and

think

that's

Charlie.

I think that's

what he got out of it. NADER: Just Chuck, real this is Nader. I don't know if you're

quick,

aware of this, but the Japanese have these monitors in various areas across their country that have live sort of data. Is there any downside for Kirk (phonetic) to

try to get his hands on this live information? CHUCK CASTO: can pursue that. And, also, you may not be aware that Yes, I don't think so. I

tomorrow morning at 9:00 a.m. flights. NADER: CHUCK

FERMAC is

going to start

Tomorrow morning? CASTO: Yes. Well, our time

tomorrow morning, which will be tonight for you. MALE PARTICIPANT: Yes, it's 9:00 a.m.

Tokyo time tomorrow morning. CHUCK CASTO: Right. Yes. Yes, that : they

NEAL R.GROSS
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186

1
2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17

are going to have air assets and sample. MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: information, us. CHARLIE MILLER: know, Are All right. Chuck, do you So, Okay. DOE will download that

and they have promised to get it

over to

did DOE get our fixed-wing aircraft over there? they putting portable equipment on aircraft

that's available to Japan? CHUCK Alan. CHARLIE MILLER: at Andrews (Inaudible) Vegas. are located was CASTO: I don't know. I can ask

Air Force Base and in they had

And I

just curious if

9'I can ask Alan when I see

CHUCK CASTO: him here next.

18

EU

221 22 23 24
25 pushing a little bit harder on --

CHARLIE MILLER: CHUCK CASTO:

Yes.

Yes,5 but we're

NEAL R. GROSS
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187 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 1i 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2 right. CHARLIE reasonably-achievable MILLER: Which may be a more you know, some N CHARLIE MILLER: CHUCK CASTO: on it, it Okay. You know, if you can get

would be helpful. That would really help.

CHARLIE MILLER:CHUCK CASTO:

Yes. The other thing is I know of that, is

CHARLIE MILLER: (inaudible), about the and

(inaudible) the

concerned evacuation happen, House,

magnitude

general going to the white

of our citizens. decision will

I mean that's get made in

that too.

CHUCK

CASTO:

Yes,

absolutely.

mean

you've got military bases here. CHARLIE MILLER: And the question, too, I mean

I think what they've got to work out, opinion is whether you try to

my personal all these

evacuate

people from the country or you relocate them to a safe haven in a country, because there's many parts in the

country that won't be affected by this. CHUCK CASTO: Yes, that's a good point,

evacuation in

the near-term than

trying to get everybody out of the country. CHUCK CASTO: Yes. Yes. Somebody in one

NEAL R. GROSS
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701

(202) 234-4433

www.nealrgross.com

188 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 take there, CHUCK CASTO: CHARLIE Yes. -medical doctors on of those meetings or something brought up KI, you

know,

but I don't

think,

we don't have an

inventory

over here.

We don't have enough inventory over here

for 170,000 people. CHARLIE MILLER: And more than that,

there's been a lot on TV in

the last number of hours

MILLER:

because there's a run on KI on the West Coast

of the United States out of panic. CHUCK CASTO: Yes. And -oversold. people not to

CHARLIE MILLER: CHUCK CASTO: CHARLIE this stuff

And it's

MILLER:

Telling

just as a precautionary measure when in no harm's way -other health

you're

absolutely

effects can occur from it. CHUCK CASTO: Yes. So, it isn't something

CHARLIE MILLER: that you take light. of being ill, a lot of

For people who may at the risk But there's could cause

that's a different matter. that go into that. It

things

other health effects. CHUCK CASTO: Right.

NEAL R. GROSS
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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189 Well, So, let me get our team just walked in a briefing from them, from TEPCO. call

and I'll

you back in,


now
--

unless you need something from me right

CHUCK guys just came in Also,

CASTO:

Yes.

And

that's

why

the=

from TEPCO. I heard there's a possibility that

we may get into EOC tomorrow morning. CHARLIE MILLER: CHUCK CASTO: then, we're still Okay. EOC. And,

The regulatory is

pushing to get into TEPCO's EOC. Okay.

CHARLIE MILLER:

CHARLIE MILLER: CHUCK


back if there's

Absolutely. So, I'll give you a call

CASTO:

anything --

CHARLIE MILLER:
CHUCK CASTO: --

All right.
significant out of the

TEPCO briefing.

NEAL R.GROSS
fg9Y2i 1.4-44,
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealr~qross.comn

190 CHARLIE MILLER: CHUCK CASTO: Okay. Thank you, Chuck.

All right.

Thank you.

CHARLIE MILLER: CHUCK CASTO:

Appreciate the call. Thanks.

Yes.

NEAL R.GROSS
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

191

1
2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 DoD, that guys on give it me right

(CONFERENCE CALL INITIATED) CHUCK CASTO: Hey, Charlie. are you there?

CHARLIE MILLER: CHUCK CASTO:

Chuck,

Yes,

I'm here. Good.

CHARLIE MILLER: CHUCK CASTO: away, anything?

Okay.

Okay. I

You got something for want to give you some

information from TEPCO. CHARLIE MILLER: to me first, and, Okay. then, I Maybe you should need to give you

some updated information,

and we got a recommendation

from the Reactor Safety people. CHUCK CASTO: Okay. But we need to hear -Good, because that's what

CHARLIE MILLER: CHUCK we're talk now, is CASTO:

reactor safety. Okay. And you I'm going the to put the But

CHARLIE MILLER: CHUCK with you CASTO: to give

specifics.

here's the basic strategy we would like to propose to you guys: That you talk with Admiral Mueller and

and we're going to give you a list needs to to be moved plant to as the

of equipment American move the

closest to

facility

that

possible,

NEAL R.GROSS
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
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192 1 2 3 equipment, is to the air base or whatever military base possible place that Americans can do of

the closest

their own thing. equipment.

We're going to give you a list

5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 1 17 1 19 2 21 22 23 24 2 with TEPCO. Admiral Yokota. are big pumps country.

Mueller,

he's

got

pumps

somewhere

in-

CHARLIE MILLER: CHUCK CASTO: somewhere

Okay.

Admiral Mueller has got four here that he's been

in-country

trying to sell.

They're in Yokota. Those are the ones that ones that I'm talking

MALE PARTICIPANT: probably at Yokota, the

about. CHUCK Are they diesel? MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK Mueller CASTO: has got I don't know. whatever big diesel they pumps are, at CASTO: Yes. Yes, diesel pumps?

Well, four

That and all the other equipment we're going of what needs to be moved to the so we can

to give you a list

closest American installation pre-stage it

to the plant,

as soon as possible. And we've kind of broken a little They haven't been -bit here

they've been kind of

stiff-arming us,

but at least we're talking with them NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.


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193 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 1 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 back, that John, because about today, pools. equipment. units. CHARLIE MILLER: All right. Let's get So, have them and discussing designs of cooling water systems. John TEPCO. well, and Tim and them have made So, some progress So, with

they're at least starting to talk about,

maybe we can pump some water to these things. So, give I'm going to put them on the phone and you the Is attributes that okay? Yes. Dave Skeen is Okay? I'm going here the pumps and

equipment that's needed.

CHARLIE MILLER: with me from RST.

He's taking those. Okay.

CHUCK CASTO:

All right. Hold on. All right,

to put you on hands-free here. MALE PARTICIPANT:

Tim

Cohn

(phonetic) and John Monager and Tony. JOHN MONAGER: So, what we were thinking

they need cooling for the four spent-fuel we're looking for essentially for the this four

Multiply everything

by four

when you get finished,

we'll get back to recommendation

we've got an alternative

on that for some of the pools. JOHN MONAGER: Okay. Good. Something that we can

MALE PARTICIPANT: take to TEPCO?

We've got a meeting tomorrow morning. NEAL R.GROSS


COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

n5 '

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194 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 1 1 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 2 2 We'll do. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: I Please proceed. Okay. So, the notion it. MALE PARTICIPANT: Okay, John, okay. possibly floor. MALE PARTICIPANT: So, if I send it to So, email it email to CHARLIE MILLER: MALE PARTICIPANT: Yes. Yes. Okay. Yes. Well, you can

email us that as soon as possible. MALE PARTICIPANT: to get you guys? MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE catch PARTICIPANT: you? We Okay. Hey, where they is a good your Yes, where is the email

understood

took

BlackBerrys away. MALE PARTICIPANT: No, we've got them.

to any of us. MALE PARTICIPANT: (Inaudible) on the

fourth floor, and we get the webmail. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: "encrypt") We got them back. And there's (inaudible,

on that computer up on the fourth

Chuck and Tim and --

MALE PARTICIPANT:

That's fine.

We'll get

NEAL R.GROSS
I-% nAAI

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. 1A1A4ZL41Mf'rW nN rl 9 ')AIW.7f

vAwnaArnr^Q

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195
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 notion. Now, I guess what NEAL R.GROSS
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

was

fire

departments for water.

have We

those want to

ground-based get

rocket

launchers ways of the air

two different

shooting water approximately from a distance of 50

30 meters up in away at 500

meters

gallons per minute. You know, those backup trucks, fire rocket to that, so one notion is on the have you would have and as a

launchers you would

ground, the

aerial

ladder

the aerial fire department snorkel truck. So, you would have both means. the You would

have

land-based pumps powering

fire rocket pumps of 30 meters per

from the ground from 50 minute. snorkel meters

shooting at a distance away, a capacity of 500

gallons

We would also somehow look for those ladder trucks that could also reach that 30-meter

elevation distance at somewhere around 500 gallons per minute. MALE monitor nozzles. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: Monitor nozzles? Correct. And a ladder PARTICIPANT: Yes, they're called

truck usually will have one on the very end of it. MALE PARTICIPANT: Okay. So, that's the

they were

saying,

the

196 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 1 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 guess, type of issue with that is the head loft and that positive

suction head sucking from the ocean. MALE PARTICIPANT: pipe for the suction pipe. MALE need rigid pipe. meters or so for PARTICIPANT: And each Yes. Yes, is plus, you 800 need know, Plus, you need a rigid

the distance unit. So,

probably

you probably the -you

some type

of booster

pump down by

probably a diesel booster pump right down by the ocean there, there, about and, sucking you in there, so there's that not pipe, fire much head up

know,

pressurizing

going

800 meters also, the

or so to the rocket same thing for the

launchers trucks

fire

positioned up there. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: (inaudible). Yes, and that also, I

the suction from the ocean, strainers. Because if

you would need some you just pulled in,

eventually,

you're just going to clog up -MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: Right. -the fire rocket

things and the ladder truck. MALE PARTICIPANT: So, you're looking for

these booster pumps from our assets that DoD has? MALE PARTICIPANT: Yes. Yes, or any place

NEAL R. GROSS
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

197
in the U.S. Government. MALE trucks, however, PARTICIPANT: probably Right. have And the to come fire from

would

Japanese assets domestically, MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT:

I would think -Yes.


--

unless

you

have

information that's different. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: if we had military them up, bases We'll work it. We'll work it. Yes. I But, mean, Okay? even they

I mean, could

here,

airlift 13 14 15 1E bottom? it.

helicopter them up? Okay. I got it. I got

MALE PARTICIPANT:

MALE

PARTICIPANT:

Strap

them

on

the

MALE PARTICIPANT: 1E it to DoD to figure out. MALE PARTICIPANT: 2C 21 MALE the attributes, PARTICIPANT:

Well,

let's

just

leave

We'll work it. If we


--

just

give

them

let them figure out Yes. John,

22
23 24 25

MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT:

Okay. do you think the fire launcher, the

fire, what you're calling a rocket


long-range nozzle --

NEALR.GROSS
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.corn

198 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2 can mount mounted on they makes JOHN somehow, yes. MALE those PARTICIPANT: in a monitor Yes, do you Or know is if MONAGER: That sit on the ground

version?

that

only for at the top of the ladder truck? JOHN MONAGER: them on They make both kinds. or they're You

the ground trucks. I

physically called

ladder

think

they're

monitor nozzles. MALE PARTICIPANT: nozzle on the ground, that high. JOHN MONAGER: No, it It will. can. They've got both it's But if it's a monitor

probably not going to get

MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT:


--

(inaudible, possibly "fog")

MALE PARTICIPANT: one of those rocket

Yes,

yes.

I mean, you know,

if and

things don't work, we would have

each one shoots 100 gpm, one. You know,

five for each

whatever it

takes to get 500 gpm's up then, we're

there with the head launch from the ocean and, the height of the reactor building, which

estimating to be 30 meters. MALE PARTICIPANT: You said it was 800

meters to the ocean. NEAL R.GROSS


I9n\
44.4

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701

www.nealraross.com

199 1 2 3 MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE change there? MALE PARTICIPANT: for that. MALE number, PARTICIPANT: We don't have the We don't have a number PARTICIPANT: Yes. What's the elevation

4
5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 30. But if

but you could probably -MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: Less than 30 meters. Yes. So, it's probably

you put the booster pump right down by the

ocean,

you should be fine, right? MALE PARTICIPANT: Well, we don't know

what we'll find. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: less than 30 meters. MALE PARTICIPANT: is Yes, but that's what Okay. Yes, but it's something

they were worried about, NPSH.

that high volume and the

21

MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT:

Got it. So, I think, you know,

23

you can't draw that much volume that far away with the fire trucks.
--

24 2

24

So,

that's

why you

need

some

booster

pump

MALE PARTICIPANT:

Right,

right.

NEALR, GROSS
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

200 1 2 3 4 5 6
7 that's
--

MALE ocean. MALE 10 meters, right?

PARTICIPANT:

--

to

pump

by

the

PARTICIPANT: So,

Well,

the tsunami

was

30-feet tall. It's So, 17. okay, 17. So,

MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT:

8 9 1 11 12 13 14 1 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 mentioned apart, is idea. that the

MALE PARTICIPANT:
MALE PARTICIPANT:

Fifty.
-50 feet. So, it's

probably more like 30 feet height difference, meters, 30 feet, I would believe. Yes, it's very

not 30

MALE PARTICIPANT: local fire

likely

departments

have

the capability put up a

right now to do this. tanker truck.

All you need to do is

MALE PARTICIPANT:

We've got

the general

MALE

PARTICIPANT: since all

One

other

thing

they blew

that, is So,

these

buildings

the debris

blocking them getting real close can you throw in Is a bulldozer? any type I mean of

to the buildings. MALE remote-control

PARTICIPANT: equipment like

there

that?

they

probably designed stuff for Chernobyl and all. MALE PARTICIPANT: Well, when asking for

NEAL R.GROSS
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
I9MV Md4.kq4.L WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealraross.com

201 1 2 3 4 path. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE path, PARTICIPANT: Yes. They need to clear a anything, ask for whatever we can get. MALE PARTICIPANT: They need to clear a

5
6 7 8 9 10
1

and their radiation fields are screaming. MALE PARTICIPANT: Do they have anything vehicles to do their

there

in

terms

of

shielded

surveys? MALE PARTICIPANT: that. Yes, They have not told us

but we can find that out as soon as we get

12 13 1 1

out of this and make a phone call. MALE PARTICIPANT: Okay. I know the

Ukrainians have that. MALE lead come, just PARTICIPANT: the blocks I mean lead, and all? how does Is there

pelletized lead? MALE 1 20 21 22 23 24 25 Officer. wondering, PARTICIPANT: lead. And That's I what I was

pelletized

think we're also

going to need -MALE PARTICIPANT: Bill Borchardt is This is the Operations

coming on the bridge. I think, also, lots of

MALE PARTICIPANT: dry chemicals. MALE PARTICIPANT:

Do

you

have

other

NEAL R. GROSS
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. N.W.

202 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 (inaudible), the line? BILL BORCHARDT: Yes, I did. We're then, go something. MALE PARTICIPANT: Hey, Bill, you came on assets that you're recommending or have you gone

through the list? MALE PARTICIPANT: Well, I'm sure they

have lead shielding from the outages. MALE PARTICIPANT: to need a lot more than that. MALE PARTICIPANT: Yes, but it's Of course, we're going

getting ready to meet with the Chairman and, into the hearing. I'm calling to see if

there was

anything that changed that I need to let the Chairman know about. MALE PARTICIPANT: Thanks, Bill. This is

19 20

18>

22 23

/ 24
25

N
l

.
n

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.


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~203

13 14

15 16

17 18 19 20 21i 22 23 2 2BILL BORCHARDT: MALE that phone call don't know who it that PARTICIPANT: typed it All right. Somebody it that was on I

up and sent

to him.

was or how it numbers think on

was that he got a copy it. they So, have we got some that

had different up. I still

cleared

reading

NEAL R.GROSS
(202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 ww~w.nealrgross~com

1 2 3

angst about that No.

4.. Bil.l?

You got any questions on that, BILL BORCHARDT: MALE PARTICIPANT: a TEPCO meeting. some help on No.

4
5 6 7 8 9 10 !1 12 13 14 1 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 2 25 great. Operations know, you came in,

The other one is

we had to

They seem much more the spent-fuel pool.

receptive

maybe

Now we're and

working on trying to design some kind of systems to move assets to American installations

as close to some pumps,

the plant as we can to pre-stage assets, piping, all to stray the spent-fuel pools. And extensive list they've also given us

qui te

an

of items that they need for themselves,

that. they wanted 'fo themselves. So, we're just now getting started. on As the

we're for:

just the

now getting spent-fuel

started and,

pumping their list

system

pools

then,

of needs. BILL BORCHARDT: Okay. And INPO, you.

has indicated their willingness with finding equipment

to participate, that kind of

especially thing.

and

MALE And I

PARTICIPANT: think your our

Well, suggestion

that is

would that hook

be the up

Center,

Operations

Center,

with Admiral Mueller.

He's got those pumps that he's NEAL R. GROSS

COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. (202) 234-4433 WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701 www.tteatrgross.com

205 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Chuck. Mike Weber, anything else? No, it's Charlie, Charlie? We haven't Bill. Sorry. had a ourselves. maybe the been trying to push up there for a day or two. we're saying, yes, move And

them up to the site or up to

an American facility nearby. And Ops so, I think can between us INPO locate and all DoD, this

Center

help

equipment. BILL BORCHARDT: MALE PARTICIPANT: For instance, Okay. And we're adding some

lead and some other things

that we know that they're going to need long-term. BILL BORCHARDT: Right. Okay. Thanks,

CHARLIE MILLER: BILL BORCHARDT: CHARLIE MILLER: chance to tell has got Chuck yet,

Oh, it's No.

but the Reactor Safety Team recommendations given with regard that they we We

some alternative

to dealing with basically don't have

the pools, lost

the fact integrity.

structural

And

recommend that

they put water on anymore.

need a way to be able to deliver sand. MALE PARTICIPANT: up onto the conference bridge. BILL BORCHARDT: NEAL R.GROSS
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

Chairman Jaczko coming

Yes,

that's

fine,

206 1 2 3 Charlie. I think we do both, and there may be some

pools that have geometry for water and some pools that might be sand. CHARLIE MILLER: BILL know, BORCHARDT: Right. So, we go both. You

multiple solutions here. DAVE SKEEN: Chuck, is

We have both staged. this is Dave Skeen.

7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 1 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 2 at least give me, we are 3? is here? continue reactors

Our understanding with on spent-fuel and 3,

that we want you to 1 and 2 and put possibly, the "if

pools

1, 2,

(inaudible,

you're putting water in there, NRC CHAIRMAN

that's a good thing.") Can I interject

JACZKO:

This Greg Jaczko. CHARLIE MILLER: Yes, Mr. Chairman. This

Charlie Miller here. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: CHARLIE MILLER: Fine. Hey, John, can you Hi. How are you?

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: just at a very high level,

the basis for what 1 and No.

referring to as our Recommendations

Just very high level on what the technical basis, 1, what is going on at the site? Chairman, we've got pools that

or I mean really No.

CHARLIE MILLER: one, and maybe two,

Mr.

spent-fuel

25

have lost their ability to be able to hold the fuel. NEAL R.GROSS
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE.. NW.
I~~V~

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207 1 2
3

NRC Is this Charlie?

CHAIRMAN

JACZKO:

Okay.

I'm sorry.

CHARLIE MILLER:

Charlie --

4 5

NRC CHAIRMAN can you just speak a bit more slowly? CHARLIE there are at least little

JACZKO:

Oh,

whoever and a

it

is,

bit louder

little

MILLER: one,

Okay.

Mr.

Chairman, pools In some for

maybe two,

spent-fuel

9 10 11 12 13 1 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2

that have lost their ability to contain the fuels. other words, it's It uncovered. may be just the It's in

configuration. all we know.

(inaudible),

Therefore,

the doses from that,

I mean the which are

radiation levels from that are going way up, getting much larger reading. with the conditions We think,

with that and

that we know about the reactors, expand the

that we need to expand the recommendation, recommendation for evacuation. NRC because fuel the CHAIRMAN JACZKO: Okay. of are

So, the

it's spentwe to is

radiation the

levels, radiation no

because levels

integrity, that

high, actions

believe undergo,

there's

other mitigative

taking place right now for the reactors,

that correct? CHARLIE MILLER: Not that we're aware of,

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208

I
2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 11 12 13 14 1 1 17

unless Chuck has information we don't. CHUCK CASTO: Yes, they've pretty sir, much I Yes, think thanks, our Charlie. feeling to is that

abandoned

attempts

mitigate

particularly the spent-fuel pools. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: point, we expect that will Got it. progress So, to at some a more

significant condition? CHUCK CASTO: Yes. Okay.

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: CHUCK CASTO:

Without interceding. Okay. Thank you. I

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: appreciate that. CHUCK and it CASTO:

And we're

in

the process,

seems they are somewhat receptive to devising a whether pool, water or sand, depending strategy on the

strategy, spent-fuel U.S.

but devising a

and moving

18
19 20 21 22 2 2
2

assets

towards

the site onto American property,

onto American facilities to pre-stage. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: MALE getting access? CHUCK more, CASTO: I've got, we're getting PARTICIPANT: Okay. And, Chuck, are you

I would say, slowly, we're getting more access.


MALE PARTICIPANT: Okay.

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209 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 regulators, government TEPCO, CHUCK CASTO: Conti. it's is not We've got access to the

meetings, though

We've got access now to widespread with TEPCO.

even

And my understanding

tomorrow we may get access to

TEPCO EOC and the regulators -MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: Okay. No, I'm sorry, the

NISA's EOC,

not TEPCO's yet. Okay. Okay, good.

MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO:

Our push is

to continue to

get access to TEPCO's Emergency Operations Center. MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: for the regulator, be fantastic. we're It Okay. looks like we've got it That will then, some you real

and that will be great. if we That can will get TEPCO, us

And good.

know,

give

information. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: for the reactor conditions? CHUCK CASTO: The Reactor Safety Team What is the timing

people are probably the best people to answer that. MALE just got out of PARTICIPANT: a meeting We with asked the them --we the They not

22 23
24 25

for

reactors,

not the spent-fuel, they have

but the reactors. injection. They're

currently believe

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210 1 2 3 sure what but the levels are in the reactor pressure for

vessel,

they do

believe

they have

injection

all the reactors. MALE PARTICIPANT: do not have instrumentation, Let's be clear. Chairman. They

They have no

6 7 8 4 9 5

instrumentation, in
that's

and they're seeing some fluctuations They're


the
--

water

level.
into

making
you

presumption
we really

that
don't

going

know,

know,

is

it

or isn't

it? Right. They're seeing

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: MALE PARTICIPANT:

12 13 1 10 15 16 17

fluctuations in water levels. that it's

There's no confirmation

actually going anywhere. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: Okay. then? Yes. And, then, also, So, we still

11

concur with the recommendations, MALE PARTICIPANT: I would say, to meet on Chairman, this

just as an anecdotal, thing again

they want tomorrow

spent-fuel

19 20 21 22 23 24 25

morning at 10 o'clock
from now. I mean --

or something.

That's 12 hours

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO:


MALE PARTICIPANT: --

Okay.
we

Yes.
don't see --

that's not a sense of urgency here. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: MALE PARTICIPANT: Yes. 12 hours from

You know,

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211 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2 21 22 23 21 2 I mean go ahead, now, to have a meeting about a mitigation strategy for

the spent-fuel pool. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: MALE PARTICIPANT: Mr. Chairman, So, Okay. we're just going to

we're just going to go ahead needed towards the military

and start moving what we think is site and get or it staged wherever. on So,

American that,

installations,

ultimately,

someone at a high

level will give permission to move

the stuff into the site. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: So, Chuck, anything? Okay. Okay. Good. calm -those right but

You're still with

we're

moving So, any

forward

recommendations. now, if you know, if

hesitation you have

you've got something right now, done.

not, we're pretty much it's

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5 7
8 9

11 12 13 14 1 16 1 18 19 2 2 22 23 24 25

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213 1 2 3 4 mitigation CHUCK CASTO: And other than that, sir,

we're good with all four of them and ready to go. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: CHUCK mode, CASTO: now that Okay. Good. into got the that

We're

moving

we've -done that,

protecting people out of the way. 7

We're trying to get

a lot more aggressive on the mitigation side. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: Okay. for the And just to folks we the in

9 10 11 12 13 14 1 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

confirm,

and

this the

may is

be still

Headquarters, from event, a

event action

driven, by

think, reactor

protective

standpoint is

not the spent-fuel, MALE

that correct? No, Chairman, I would from

PARTICIPANT:

say that we believe, what we know, in

from the spent-fuel

alone,

that's the biggest change at this point recommendation. Okay. I Okay. that's an

time for the change in

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: MALE PARTICIPANT:

think

important subtlety. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: terms of the 50 miles, last I Okay. knew, Okay. But in

that was coming

more from the Unit 2 than from the spent-fuel pool. MALE PARTICIPANT: Yes, and I think the is,

information we're getting for protective measures even if you add the others, it's going

to get a lot

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214 1 2 3
4

more screaming hot.

But if

you go out to 50 miles,

think you're going to see the thing to the point where that's probably still the appropriate recommendation

5
6

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO:


MALE PARTICIPANT: --

Okay.
given the current

7 8 9 10 1 12 13 14 1 1
17

meteorological conditions and everything. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: Well, thanks, everybody. Yes. Okay. Okay.

Good work.

Keep at it.

I'm going to go testify. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE Chairman. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT:
--

Thank you. Good

Good luck. luck, Mr.

PARTICIPANT:

Thank you.

Now could we continue? Yes, we'll continue on

and Tim and John will continue on that.

18 19 2C 21 22 23
24

BILL interrupt

BORCHARDT:

This

is

Bill.

Let

me

for just one second because

I want to make

sure that I'm clear when I talk to the Chairman. The thought was due change to in our recommendations about I the

Chuck's

understanding

integrity of the Unit 4 spent-fuel pool.


MALE PARTICIPANT: Well, and
--

25

BILL BORCHARDT:

Yes,

go ahead.

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215
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2 that it's one, the new, MALE PARTICIPANT: it get In gone. Our understanding of

the Unit 4 spent-fuel pool is the side bottom of such that it will fuel.

has been destroyed on no water above the

the active

effect, Whereas,

the sides of before the

the reactor

building are

explosion went upwards and took the top, lead us to believe that the sides are gone. BILL BORCHARDT: additional pool, source-term, which is Right. which us

the pictures

And so, is the

it's Unit

the 4 our

spent-fuel

causing

to change

recommendation for protective action? MALE PARTICIPANT: the Unit 4, long-term. up here, because it The unit they had Now that's not a worst

will be like that maybe in 3 one, the currently, metal/water when we

showed

reaction

going, and the Unit ls and 2s were boiling. CHUCK CASTO: I Bill, this is Chuck.

think the other part of that was we've and and final

just not seen any mitigation of any of the events, we would just all take the all four the spent-fuel into pools the

probably

reactors

conclusion because we've not seen any mitigation. BILL BORCHARDT: CHUCK CASTO: Yes, So, right. you've got to assume

going to go to the final -NEAL R.GROSS

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216

1
2 3 4 5 6

BILL understand that. focus on Unit 2,

BORCHARDT:

Fine.

Okay.

And

I couldn't understand the Chairman's unless i was misunderstanding what

conversation was going on. CHARLIE MILLER: Bill, this is Charlie.

I think what he -MALE PARTICIPANT: Yes, somebody did run a

8 9 10 11 12 13 14 1 16 17 18 19 2 21 22 23 24
2

RASCAL

on Unit 2. JIM TRAPP: It's based Yes, on Bill, the this is Jim Trapp. and the case

RASCAL

runs,

RASCAL runs we had, two days ago,

remember we had that worst

and we had a couple of RASCAL runs done. Unit 4,

And what our RASCAL run said was worst-case, (inaudible, possibly "pit") 4,

was bounded by the Unit

2 meltdown with no fission product barriers. So, that's why the Chairman remembered

that and was more focused on Unit 2. BILL BORCHARDT: make sure that if no one Yes, but I just want he says to as

takes, anything

implying that, life is

they resolve the issues with Unit 2, Right?

going to be a lot of better. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: No.

They've got 1, 3 and 4,

and maybe

--

this is

likely to go to 4 through spent-

fuel pools lost and --

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217 BILL BORCHARDT: got it.


MALE PARTICIPANT: -(inaudible, possibly

Right,

right.

Okay.

"nuclear")

reactors lost. MALE PARTICIPANT: And to be honest, today declared this an

is

Daiichi,

right?

Daiene

emergency,

and they're also having trouble with spent-

fuel cooling at Daiene. BILL BORCHARDT: go track the Chairman down. MALE PARTICIPANT: MARGIE: This is Margie? CHUCK CASTO: MARGIE: Hey, Yes, Marge. Okay, so yesterday flow for maybe from 10 Can I I've got it. Thanks, guys. I've got to

All right. ask a question of Chuck?

Chuck.

we started getting a pretty good information a little while. But we It got did stop an after about flow

hours.

information

Mopa

(phonetic) and a guy, As interpreters information going. again in and a

a contact that we have here. result, we them called to give in us some the that

we

told

Japanese,

and we started

to get

I can try to go through those informal panels right now, if that will help. I don't know

whether that will help or hurt at this point. NEAL R.GROSS


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218 CHUCK CASTO: Margie, I think some of that And we're setting the channels are

may have been overcome by events. 3 4 up a meeting tomorrow. I think

reopening. There was kind of a breakdown for a while

6 7 8 9 1 11 12 13 14 1 1 17 18 19 2 21 22 23

today,

and there's a back-story to that I'll

tell

you

over a beverage someday. opening back up. Let's if it you suggest, until if

But I think the channels are

try to give it, you don't mind,

if

you don't mind, let's try to give our time, Is and, that

tomorrow midday or something

then, okay?

see how those channels

open back up.

MARGIE:

Well,

I think that's okay,

but I

want to be clear here. guys. Mopa. CHUCK understand that. MARGIE: it, to if be CASTO: It was a

The channels weren't with you coming into NRC through

back-panel

Right.

Yes.

Yes,

we

Okay.

Okay, on it. could but

but we can

sit

on

you want us to sit here if all we day. We

I mean we're going be if working on this us to

stuff, sit --

get

something,

you want

24
2

CHUCK CASTO:

I would ask that we sit

on

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219

I
2
3

it

for right now to see --

MARGIE:
CHUCK

Okay.
CASTO:
--

how

the

dialog

progresses. MARGIE: Okay. If we pursue if it, when we

CHUCK CASTO: 7 8 9 1 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2 we'll minute. -CHARLIE MILLER: to inject. But get back let's go here, again. We want were giving us. CHUCK CASTO: Charlie. I'm sorry. the problem. MARGIE: CHARLIE Yes. MILLER:

think we've prepared the dialog,


it will look --

we pursue it,

then

MARGIE:

Okay. So, that might exacerbate

CHUCK CASTO:

Okay.

Thanks. this is Charlie

Chuck,

to get back to the list

that you

Okay.

We've got to inject

You know how things are

dynamic. TEPCO just called and they have some more

ahead with

Tim,

and,

then, in a

to you with TEPCO's

inject here

Thank you.

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220 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 1 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2 the water CHUCK CASTO: the equipment. Okay, we were talking about

I think we went through -One last thing.

MALE PARTICIPANT: (Inaudible), CHUCK CASTO:

Filters,

hoses,

fittings, if

I we

guess monitors to shoot the water, can get it. And right now,

a bulldozer, is getting

John

the of

specific specs from TEPCO on what the requirements

those pumps need as far as net positive suction heads, heights, getting. MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK soon as we can. MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: into these Okay. CASTO: Okay. get that to you as and everything. That's what I believe he's

We'll

Their suggestion was to pump that they talked about

pools

earlier

when

they

were

injecting

borated

seawater.

They had those intermediate pools setup. a possibility. pumping into an So, if

That's still

we need to have this equipment pool, and then pump work. it

intermediate

again up to the building,

that would still

I know you mentioned earlier that you had some other mitigating work. NEAL R. GROSS
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actions

you thought might also

221 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 lost, pool. CHUCK could put water in CASTO: them, But the other ones, if we because morning, CHARLIE MILLER: Yes. and The Reactor Safety I'm going to let it

Team has been doing some work,

Dave Skeen walk you through what they are because would pools, change at of least for the pools, have lost

the spent-fuel their integrity

course,

that

completely. CHUCK we're CASTO: to Okay. have a I'll be writing tomorrow

going

meeting

and we'll give this info to them. DAVE SKEEN: Okay. That's great, Chuck.

We've been doing some brainstorming here, trying to figure out if on 3 and 4 spent-fuel they've really lost integrity pools. The structural people

are saying there's really no use to put water on there anymore because all you're going to do is contamination. As it steams, spread the

you're going to make the

contamination worse. CHUCK CASTO: This is Chuck.

I think they only have one spent-fuel pool that's lost geometry, right, and lost structure. Unit 4, we think they

DAVE SKEEN:

Yes,

blew the wall out of the side of the spent-fuel

you still

would want

to put

NEAL R. GROSS
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

222 water in them, wouldn't you? MALE water in speak know, it in them, but PARTICIPANT: Yes. If we can get

they still are unable

are even trying that as we to do it. As if far as we

now,

the other three will hold water, there to some extent.

we can get they said,

One of them,

seismically, might be cracked, DAVE SKEEN: been dry this long, it's already if

but we don't know that. But, again, if it's

Right.

they've had the zirc possibly "slumped")

fire and the fuel

(inaudible,

that was there --

CHUCK CASTO:
DAVE SKEEN:

Yes.
-by putting water in there

and

steaming

it,

all

you're

doing

is

spreading

the

contamination with the steam at some point. CHUCK Dave, let's CASTO: Yes. But, like I said,

go both paths.

Let's do a water path and

a sand path. DAVE SKEEN: I agree. You have to be

ready to do both things.

And we have to assume that 1 eventually, we will

and 2 are headed the same way and, have to do sand there. CHUCK CASTO: and 2, do Right. both 3

You're paths.

right. So,

Let ' s

go

ahead I and

solution and 4,

recoi mend

water;

since

they had

NEAL R. GROSS
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223 zirc/water reactions, 2 3 4 to do something different. Yes, and that's probably just

DAVE SKEEN:

drop sand and try to shield, you're trying to cut down dose at this point. So, you're just trying to cover

up the ruble that's left. CHUCK CASTO: 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 you know. DAVE SKEEN: CHUCK CASTO: And, a crust built up. DAVE SKEEN: That's right. too. Right, So, because also, it Yes. Go about spreading it. depends on whether there is Now did you read the NUREG? Dave, it can about putting water help. They still

I know you read the NUREG, on the molten fuel, that

recommend it. DAVE SKEEN: CHUCK CASTO: Right. It depends on how you do it,

you'll be insulating the ruble, going to build up and it's at some point,

the heat is But, to

going to last longer.

you have to figure out what's worse, longer,

let the things be hot and burn a little if the shield is insulated, So, or is that's it the

even

worse to spread kind out. the ground over of line

more

contamination?

you've got to walk to try to figure it And if you guys are on

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224 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 1 19 20 2 22 23 24 2 you can get is from a you, we there, you can probably get better information than we have. CHUCK CASTO: to haul yet. Well, in they thought about They

taking a helicopter just haven't tried it waiting for.

sand or water.

I don't know what they're

DAVE SKEEN: were doing

Yes,

right.

Now let me tell possibly (phonetic) over that

some

just

(inaudible, with PMP have

"back-of-the-invoice") about how much dose

talking rate

you should

four spent-fuel pools.

And it's

hundreds of thousands

of rads right now about 20 meters above the spent-fuel pool. CHUCK CASTO: helicopter isn't Okay. an Yes. isn't So, dropping really an

option,

option. DAVE SKEEN: some data But what I would say is, that that, tells you what if

the dose is

really now,

coming off

what your source-term

that will help you. And if you look back at Chernobyl, one of

the lessons they learned from that from the helicopter pilot -I think they had eight pilots that flew until basically -the cables that they had to

they died,

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they had, were too short.

They had to get down so low

to the reactor they were taking more dose. CHUCK CASTO: DAVE SKEEN: Yes. So, if there's a way that the they can

pilots may know what are the longest cables use, if they start dropping material,

to give them as

much distance as you can, CHUCK CASTO:

they need to look at that. Hey, Dave, let's move, okay?

We're going to do both strategies. water. DAVE forget starting they had about SKEEN: 5 and Okay. 6.

Let's do sand and

And, You

also, know,

don't they're

Units

to heat up, a diesel

too.

Even though we had heard on 6 that was still 5

generator

working,

and once when we had heard that

the Unit

spent-fuel of the

pool had dropped to about within six feet fuel, but they were thinking that

top of the

they get some

cooling water back in

there with this

diesel from Unit 6. CHUCK CASTO: had cross-tied. into their But, Yes, we had heard that they as we're they invite to us get

hopefully, hopefully,

meetings,

going

more and more information as we go here. DAVE SKEEN: Yes, that's what our hope is,

www.nealrgross.com

226 CHUCK CASTO: 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 1 17 18 19 20 21 4, I Okay. DAVE SKEEN: think you've got But, from what we can tell on to try to somehow will taking Well, of we Unit from if recommended 2, because but that that not

the roof off to have

allow

them

access

above,

Unit 4 because they don't know, of the rest of that roof,

they try to get rid left of it --

or whatever is

MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO:

The roof's gone. right?

There's nothing left,

a pretty open path

dump stuff down there. CHUCK CASTO: Right.

containment of over top of shielding,

DAVE

SKEEN: field went into the secondary over the top you could

the debris

and put some kind of debris So,

the spent-fuel pool.

I'm not sure,

probably dump sand on top of that debris field that's the pool and that would give you some

but you may not get down completely to the the spent-fuel pool on that Unit 3. again, we're just

ruble pile in

And,

22
23 24 2

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227 1 2 3 Hey, CHUCK CASTO: Should we continue this?

TEPCO wants the guys to come back over to work on

the designs. DAVE SKEEN: All right.

51

7 DAVE SKEEN: 9 1 1 12 13 1 1 16 17 18 19 2 2 22 23 2 2 CHUCK CASTO: All right. So, I want to get these guys

out of here and get over to TEPCO. MALE quick question. pumps, these in is it PARTICIPANT: All right, Chuck, a

The assets that you asked for, your understanding that time? the Navy

these has

place at this point in

Or do we have

to go out and search for it? CHUCK CASTO: No, Admiral Mueller has -Okay. Mueller has them

MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK here in-country. MALE PARTICIPANT: CASTO:

Admiral

All

right.

So,

you

want us to engage Admiral Mueller right now, for additional information? CHUCK CASTO: need those pumps. MALE PARTICIPANT: Okay. Yes,

not wait

we know we're going to

NEAL R.GROSS
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19M

228 CHUCK CASTO: So, get them, get those

pumps to the closest American installation that he can get them to, 4 5 to the site, until we get permission to

bring them into the site. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: All right. Got it.

7 because 9 10

CHUCK CASTO: the Navy has a

But give him the whole list lot more pumping pumps that

they have access to that we could use. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: Okay. Got it. We've got. And I'm going to go I'm All right.

13 12 13

CHUCK CASTO: over another big list


going to go over --

Okay.

with you while the guys go.


I need to -maybe, Kirk,

can we

fax this list? 15 1 from TEPCO, 191 2 21 22 23 24 25 the case. another list, would, I will email the RST, what these specs are

as soon as we get them. And we're going to, material and I'm going to fax you And if if you you

they've asked for. it would be

Charlie

Dave,

great

could hook up with Admiral Mueller. phone number there. CHARLIE MILLER:

Somebody has his

e on We already have DavE

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229 1 2 3 4 5 who can do CHUCK what. CASTO: It's Yes, and INPO, going have and decide to an be the

probably INPO don't

Admiral.

I'm guessing

aircraft

carrier or a C5. (Laughter.) So, it's probably going to keep to have to be -in, it might

7 8

but,

nevertheless,

INPO plugged

be nice. And, also, it would be nice, Dave, if you I

1 11 12 13 1 1 1 1 18 1 2 21 22 23 24
25

and INPO could get together on what you -know


Team,

you know,

you've
but if

done your
INPO
--

work

with

the

Reactor

Safety

CHARLIE MILLER: CHUCK pass on to Dave, CASTO: if

He's gone off, Okay. Well, if

Chuck. you could

they could get with INPO and get

their recommendations on how to address the spent-fuel pools, I know our guys are great and they're bright

and all that stuff,

but I'd also like to get INPO's,

because of a lot of experience Exelon and others have. It would be nice if we could see if they have any

other ideas. CHARLIE MILLER: DAVE SKEEN: Chuck.


So,

Got it. INPO right now,

We're with I

This is

Dave Skeen.
--

just stopped back in.

we're talking to INPO

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230 CHUCK CASTO: 2 3 4 5 6


7

Okay, you

great. on

If the

you get the line, get and

Admiral

and

INPO

and

guys

strategies

and get material resources

identified,

then when the guys get back from TEPCO, to have some more design needs, it.

they're going

or whatever you call

They're going to have some more system designs

for you --

8 910 1 12 13 1 15 16 1 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2 that it?

MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: --

Okay. that TEPCO wants. Okay. So, thanks. Chuck. Is

MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: MALE Okay.

PARTICIPANT:

All right,

CHUCK CASTO:

Yes.

We're good. All right, we're good.

MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO:

We'll talk soon. All right. Okay.

MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT:

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T' 1

(CONFERENCE CALL INITIATED) 2 3 MALE PARTICIPANT: Bill Borchardt coming

up on the ET conference. Mr. Borchardt, you're on the conference,

5 6 7 8 9 1 1 12 13 14 1 1 1 1 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

sir. BILL BORCHARDT: MALE PARTICIPANT: BILL BORCHARDT: room. The hearing has Thank you. Hey, Hi. Bill. So, we're in but we're a back just

started,

caucusing,

going over some facts. And what I just wanted to do was triplerecommendation- that Given we the that

check would

the have

50-mile under pool

evacuation a similar

circumstance. and

spent-fuel it's

on

Unit

the possibility

already had a fire,

would 50 miles still

be the

appropriate evacuation distance? MALE PARTICIPANT: that, Charlie? CHARLIE MILLER: at it, Bill. MALE PARTICIPANT: CHARLIE MILLER: is Mike's up there. Okay. Currently, as it Yes. Let me take a shot Do you want to answer

today with the meteorological

conditions,

we would

say yes. concern".)

But the PMP has (inaudible, One, RASCAL only goes

possibly "a main out to 50 miles.

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232 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8But 9 10 1 12 13 14 1 1 1 1 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 calculations Yes. CHARLIE that, MILLER: if the And wind they've shifts, even they got could saying is, So, we need some help from there to go out further

than that. But we've got some calculations that at 50 miles you would be getting doses beyond would protective only come action recommendations. if there's that show that are Now this shift,

into play

a wind

which is

expected this weekend. there are certain assumptions that go

into that with regard to the percentage of core melt and the number of pools that have lost their

integrity. BILL BORCHARDT: MALE it All right. So, then, what Charlie is to

PARTICIPANT:

could be worse;

you may have

evacuate beyond 50 miles. CHARLIE MILLER: Because I think the could to

message there would be that that recommendation potentially be altered if the situation

continues

degrade or does not get any better. MALE PARTICIPANT: Like beyond 50 miles.

affect Tokyo to that extent. that yet, although we

Now we have not verified (inaudible, possible

would

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233 1 2 3
4

"love")

to have anybody run with that. BILL BORCHARDT: Okay. But even burn if, I

mean,
out
--

if

the

zirc

fire would eventually

itself

5
6

CHARLIE MILLER:
BILL BORCHARDT:

Right,
-and,

right.
then, the release

7 8 9 1 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

slows significantly down then? MALE PARTICIPANT: BILL BORCHARDT: Right. I mean it's kind of like

a finite time period burst of radioactivity that would be released? CHARLIE MILLER: BILL BORCHARDT: CHARLIE that, but you've too, MILLER: also that got, are Right. Right? Well, you it would be for core of than

know, in.

the And,

conditions, course,

weighing are

their calculations (inaudible,

showing for more

one spent-fuel

possibly "burning"). Yes, right. Bill, it it

BILL BORCHARDT: MALE PARTICIPANT:

They told us, if

would relate over a 24-hour period about zirc fire CHARLIE MILLER: BILL again? NEAL R.GROSS
(202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701

was a

Right. I'm sorry, say that

BORCHARDT:

www.nealrgross.com

234
I

MALE release. burn. So,

PARTICIPANT:

It's

sustained worth of

2 3 4 5 6 7

you're talking

about a day's

CHARLIE MILLER: release should you put in exercise protective action. MALE PARTICIPANT:

I mean a day's worth of a condition that you would

Absolutely.

Oh,

yes,

but the isotopes will be out of that pool after about 9 1 11 1 13 1 1 1 17 18 19 20 2 22 23


2 hard to get

a 24-hour pool. CHARLIE MILLER: the point is we don't it's make Yes, right, right. that But we

any assumptions

would not evacuate if

24 hours. Right. Given I Right, what want right. Bill's to make

MALE PARTICIPANT: CHARLIE question was about MILLER: the

(inaudible),

sure you appreciate that. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE definitely want to PARTICIPANT: evacuate not Yes. And you would because

(inaudible)

after the event is ground (inaudible).

over you're going to have a lot of

BILL BORCHARDT: And I


a

Yes.

Right.

Okay. that
I

guess one other question


firm answer is --

it's
know

nice,

and

there's

three

cores'

worth

of

inventory

and

four

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235 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 1 17 18 19 2C 21 22 23 24 2 sure of basis. we're if "revisit" right now. spent-fuel would that pools, and if you had all that activity,

cause us

to revisit

the U.S.

territories

issue that we're saying, you know, all along that it's extremely

we have been saying unlikely that there

would be any radiation exposure to the U.S. its and territories. four fuel But if

coast or

you took those three reactors it together, would that

pools and put

get us to revising that statement? CHARLIE first. Okay? BILL BORCHARDT: CHARLIE MILLER: Yes. Revising it, of course, MILLER: That's All exactly right, what he said doing

we're

would depend upon the meteorological MALE PARTICIPANT: we have one second to answer, CHARLIE MILLER: BILL BORCHARDT: MALE that. And doing PARTICIPANT: No. Okay. But

conditions.

But our best estimate, would be no.

we

want

to

make the is the

So, part the And,

we're going back to reconfirm of the challenge we're having in

source-term then,

analysis

(inaudible).

we go to NARAC,

but NARAC is

being directed by the Deputy to do runs. BILL BORCHARDT: Yes. Okay.

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236 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 right. expectation. CHARLIE MILLER: It wou ldn't be a what I three Tokyo, too. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: Right. Yes, and that's
the priority

MALE PARTICIPANT:
we need to --

So,

we don't always get

MALE PARTICIPANT:

And they're looking at

appropriate because --

BILL BORCHARDT:
MALE PARTICIPANT:

Yes.
-that :'s

the

first-

order priority. BILL BORCHARDT: Sure. similar to from the would at the

And I guess the other point is

was making before about the releases reactors and the four spent-fuel

pools

probably be sequential. exact same time, right?

They wouldn't be all

MALE PARTICIPANT:

Yes,

that would be our

simultaneous peak release. MALE PARTICIPANT: That wou .ld be a low

likelihood of that. BILL BORCHARDT: Thank you. MALE PARTICIPANT: Hey, Bill? Right. Yes. Okay. All

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237
I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 i1
16

BILL BORCHARDT: MALE PARTICIPANT: but,

Yes. I don't know whether the Japanese

you heard this or not,

apparently,

Emperor went on live TV today in

Japan and said he is

very concerned about the nuclear emergency. BILL BORCHARDT: MALE PARTICIPANT: people to pull together on Okay. You know, the he asked his and the

tsunami

earthquake response, So, at least

but he said he's very concerned. high-level recognition of the

there is

grave situation. BILL BORCHARDT: MALE PARTICIPANT: BILL BORCHARDT: Right. Okay? Thanks. And that's Okay.

consistent with that message we saw earlier today that

17 1 19 2 2 22 23 24 2 Bill.

MALE PARTICIPANT: BILL BORCHARDT: MALE PARTICIPANT: Bye-bye. BILL BORCHARDT:

Absolutely. Yes. Okay. Thanks. All right,

All right.

Bye.

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238 1 (CONFERENCE CALL INITIATED) MIKE: 3 Hi, John. Hey, how you doing, Mike?

JOHN MONAGER: MIKE: Okay.

How are you? Good, good, good.

JOHN MONAGER: Oh,

my lord, that is

wonderful. Earlier today we

7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2 2 2 23 2 2 have now, is about they

Hey,

we're calling back.

went up to a meeting at TEPCO and met with a couple of individuals little from the regulatory body, and they were a didn't make much

bit standoffish and, you know,

progress. However, I guess about two hours, probably

two and a half hours ago, wanted to meet again So, and

they called back and wanted to know how

quickly we could meet.

we went back up and just

met with them for a few hours to try to spec out some of this equipment. I'm not sure call earlier today, MIKE: Mike. I do. I've got the turnover. Okay. So, that's what we for the if you were involved in the

JOHN MONAGER:

more specifications

for cooling

four spent-fuel pools. MIKE: JOHN Okay. MONAGER: And the bottom line is,

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239
well, would one is like they haven't to talk in accepted more it yet, but about they it

much

detail

4
tomorrow. But the bottom line is they need something by the weekend. 5
9

MIKE: until tomorrow? JOHN


process -even,

But why do they want to Why not now? MONAGER:


actually,

leave it

6 7 8 13 14 9 10 21 12 13

guess
the

this
people

approval
we met

today

with weren't

even with TEPCO.

One was with Toshiba

and two of them are with the Ministry, METI. MIKE: Okay. So, you know, it's just the as I'm

JOHN MONAGER: interesting, regulatory the dynamics. body coming up

You're with

talking about the solutions So,

14 16 17

opposed
not sure

to the licensee being at the plate.


--

MIKE:

(Inaudible). Yes, yes.

JOHN MONAGER: MIKE: 20 21 22 guess, is that So,

what do you need from us? We're going to describe, And I will I

JOHN MONAGER: a conceptual you guys system. somehow

guess the thought with INPO, the to

work

23

Department of Defense, see what's available. MIKE:

and everyone else out there

Okay.

Do

you

want

the

Reactor

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240

1
2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 1 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2 21 22 23 24 25

Safety Team guys in

there now or -They've gone. All right. So, wait a

MALE PARTICIPANT: JOHN MONAGER:

minute or keep rolling? MIKE: No, go. So, for the thought is each, one a fourseparate,

JOHN MONAGER: train system, one train

independent train for each spent-fuel pool. MIKE: JOHN starting strainers. think about are, to make at the Okay. MONAGER: ocean. And So, you're you going need to be

suction

And the suction strainers, the pulse and whatever gets

you're going to the fire nozzles the suction

sure whatever

through

strainer doesn't clog up the fire nozzle. MIKE: JOHN strainers. Then, Right. MONAGER: you're You going know, so a suction of

to have

length

piping from the ocean up onto the beach, you know, 20-30 meters or so. And

probably 20, elevation

that

change will be about 10 meters or so. So, going to put in right there, the notion is they're that need

diesel-driven booster pumps

to be able to handle a 10-meter suction head. MIKE: Okay. NEAL R.GROSS


COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

241 JOHN 2 3 4 5 before was the MONAGER: pumps were The too problem far away. they've So, had now

they're doing two pumps. the beach and, building. So, then,

They're doing a pump down at right up at the reactor

pumps

you would need four diesel-driven fire the beach with a capacity for 10

pumps way down on

meters of suction head. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2C 21 22 23 24 2 put, then, And, 4, MIKE: Okay. And, then, for Units 1 and away. So, For

JOHN MONAGER:

they're both approximately

500 meters

for each of those, you need 500 meters of piping. the units in between, both of those. MIKE: Okay. 2 and 3,

you need 700 meters for

MALE PARTICIPANT:

The total distance from

the ocean to the launch point -JOHN MONAGER: actually, we didn't Yes, to the launch point. they need any

look whether

elbow bends or any of that kind of stuff. Then, the at the end of that piping you will diesel-driven spray pumps with a

capacity of 500 gallons per minute or greater,

capable

of shooting to a height of greater than 50 meters from a distance of greater than 100 meters. NEAL R. GROSS
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242 MALE PARTICIPANT: 2 3 4 5 6


7 but that --

Okay. Those things know, diesel-driven that I are fire

JOHN pumps would go the

MONAGER: into ground. those You

somehow

planted on cannons,

call

them fire

but some type of ground-mounted -MALE PARTICIPANT: Launch point. Well,

go ahead.

8 9 i 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2 nozzles.

JOHN MONAGER:

Yes,

then it

you would

need

And for all this stuff, due to

has to be movable field. Like

and transportable

the radiation

both diesel generators,

I think the notion is

they are So,

skid-mounted on some type of trucks,

or whatever.

they just drive the truck up to those two points and the people I'm not get out of there extremely means with quickly. this So, piping

sure what

that comes

all

because I imagine it

in a section. Yes. everything has to

MALE PARTICIPANT: JOHN MONAGER:

You know,

be highly movable and transportable. MALE PARTICIPANT: they're wanting us have these things to provide on a trailer Okay. I don't but think if we

the trucks, or

something,

that's

just fine. JOHN MONAGER: Yes. Then, they want

assistance with installation. NEAL R. GROSS


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243 1 2 3 4 5 running it. JOHN MONAGER: And operation, which I MALE PARTICIPANT: Installation and

think they would be probably the biggest issue so far. MALE PARTICIPANT: JOHN MONAGER: described, the line first there could be Yes. with that system we or in in the such you pipe and

6
7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2 21 22 23 24 25 are going system.

Now,

the need eventually So, somewhere deductor,

place to add boron. put the educator,

you will

the

that you're able to suck boron from a tank. want some to way, be you able know, something the along

So, the

pathway mixed,

to have

boron

injected

in case they do need that. MALE PARTICIPANT: JOHN MONAGER: Anything else? Yes. So, that's one

Then, as a backup system, with aerial booms. MALE PARTICIPANT: JOHN MONAGER: to and lift the up,

four five trucks

Four pumper trucks?

With big aerial booms that you know, 20-30 meters by

themselves, shooting in.

water cannon

sitting on

the top

MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT:

Okay. John, why just four?

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244 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 1i 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2C 21 2 23 24 2 minimum, Are you saying one per unit? One for Unit 4,

(inaudible, possibly "in

case of breakdown")" This is

or what?

MALE PARTICIPANT: JOHN MONAGER: Yes,

a minimum. the

all this stuff is

one for each unit, and the same way how we're one train for each. Okay. with that diesel if not 12, pumps

designing out that system,

MALE PARTICIPANT: JOHN MONAGER:

You know,

storage tank, you've got at least 8, there. You've You've got four got of

four booster pumps at the spray pumps, So, and

the ocean. you've got

four fire engines.

I'm not sure whether you do 12

storage tanks or whatever makes sense. MALE PARTICIPANT: Now what kind of head

do you need between the booster pump location and the base of the building? right? JOHN MONAGER: MALE from the ocean to Now the 10 meters was It's 27 meters
--

That's a 10-meter

(inaudible),

PARTICIPANT:
--

total

JOHN MONAGER:

Yes. -right at the base of

MALE PARTICIPANT: the reactor building. JOHN MONAGER: Yes.

MALE PARTICIPANT: NEAL R.GROSS

So,

you need 20 meters

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245 1 2 3 then, you know, to add a little conservatism, then, 20 meters, 10 the

meters suction at the first, and, second. MALE PARTICIPANT:

Hey, do you have a dose What does know? 300

5 6 7 8 9 10 1 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24

(inaudible,

possibly convert

"guide there")? to? Do you

millisieverts

Three

millisieverts is the rad field around there right now. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: That's 30 R per hour. There you go.

MALE PARTICTPANT: have operators in

Yes.

Rut they still

do

the control room,

and they have a is about 200 to

center onsite where they said that it 300 millirem, is what they tell us. JOHN MONAGER:
good, you know,

Then,

we went

into

some
all

somewhat good discussion on the --

right, actually, let me go backwards. NEAL R.GROSS


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246
1 Then, the other notion, you know, some

2
3

type of remote-control
rad field

robots capable of going into a


and, also, remote cameras.

for measurement

MALE PARTICIPANT: JOHN MONAGER:

How high a rad field?

5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 1 1I 1? 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 a bird's you know, of that. 4, floor is,

I would say extremely high.

MALE PARTICIPANT: JOHN MONAGER: Yes,

A thousand R? whatever the fuel pool Okay?

fuel pool floor, et cetera.

One thing, we went back and forth on Unit the spent-fuel whatever, pool and the notion of sand, because we believe the walls dirt, were

clay,

blown out and the water level is active bit, fuel. and we

at the bottom of the you know, and we quite a said

That took them back, went back and forth,

They said they don't have any indications They believe, which would be true, there

will be screaming radiation levels if knocked out. They said the walls,

those walls were

*
but the spentan aerial, floor, and,

could have been knocked

out,

fuel pool wall may not be the outermost wall. They showed us an aerial view, eye schematic the pool is of the spent-fuel (inaudible, NEALR. GROSS
(202) 234-4433 COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701 www.nealrgross.com

possibly "one inner

247 wall"). 2 3 4 that, So, Unit 4, they had the a decent level of confidence hadn't been

spent-fuel

pool

walls to

blown out

and the success path was

flood that up

and not to go with sand, dirt, MALE PARTICIPANT:

or whatever. If they still have a

6 7

coolable volume there,

that might be worthwhile. Yes. Right now, it is not

JOHN MONAGER: being cooled, though.

9 1 11 12 13 14 15 1 1 1 19 20 2 22 23 24 2 can't know.
But,

MALE progress?

PARTICIPANT:

Are

there

fires

in

MALE PARTICIPANT: JOHN MONAGER:


I mean --

No confirmation. say anything.

They didn't

MALE

PARTICIPANT:

You

know,

we

don't

JOHN MONAGER: remove the roof

Yes, 2.

they

also

said

they think

on Unit

They don't

they can get over there with a helicopter or anything


because the rad --

MALE

PARTICIPANT:

This

is

the

Headquarters Ops Officer. Mr. conference bridge. Mr. Borchardt, are you there, sir? Hey, Bill? Borchardt is coming up on the

MALE PARTICIPANT:

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248 BILL BORCHARDT: 2 3 MALE PARTICIPANT: This is Hey, Bill Borchardt. Bill, we're in the

middle of a call with John Monager and Chuck. we help you?

How can

5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 anything to see development John with Chairman. update, if

BILL BORCHARDT:

We're just here with the

We're just looking for another last-minute there's been any recent developments. MALE is PARTICIPANT: we're that Well, the most with recent and

what

discussing they just

Chuck

Monager. Toshiba

That's and METI

had a they

meeting finally

officials,

and

identified them

potential with

equipment their

needs

that would help spent-fuel pool

contend

degraded

conditions. And so, we're going to get rolling on that what could be arranged back through the

military in that don't they

terms of delivering some of this equipment would be needing the spent-fuel to cool pool the fuel. 4 is They as

think

for

Unit

degraded as we thought. BILL BORCHARDT: from the U.S. Now they haven't accepted actively engaged in

They're

the discussions and interested? MALE PARTICIPANT: BILL BORCHARDT: Right. Okay.

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249 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 1 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MALE PARTICIPANT: So, I think, as a

minimum, we can do what we need to do to see if line this up. BILL BORCHARDT: MALE PARTICIPANT: Right. And, then, it

we can

will be

up to them to decide,

are they going to ask for it? Yes. And they really

MALE PARTICIPANT: talked about needing it weekend. MALE PARTICIPANT: up.

to be up and running by this

Right.

Well,

that

gives us a day to queue it Anything else? JOHN MONAGER:

guess

somewhat

halfway

decent good news on the RTS on the reactor on all four units. They said, for the past 48 hours, they have

continued to inject,

and they're injecting through the a little bit

low-pressure core spray system, which is better you're than a LPSI. down Low-pressure from the top.

core So,

spraying, LPSI, if

spraying

you're only partial-height,

you're worried,

you know,

you're relying upon steam cooling. core news. Also -MALE PARTICIPANT: NEAL R.GROSS For spray is better than that.

Your low-pressure So, that was good

all

four

units,

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250 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20

John? JOHN MONAGER: units, yes. MALE PARTICIPANT: gagged open, ensuring with They had the SRVs not They told us for all four

but the SRVs are wide open and they are air pressure the SRVs stay open, and

they keep pressure less than .1 megapascal within the primary system. Another for the reactor, for thing, I guess the success path 2,

the spent-fuel

pool

on Unit

they just right now have a small blowout panel They don't believe that hole is So, forth on ways we went to big enough.

hole.

back and

forth and back and a hole in the

deliberately

make

reactor building. BILL BORCHARDT: again. This is Bill. I'm sorry to interrupt

Mike, we got cut off. MALE PARTICIPANT:


BILL BORCHARDT:

We're still
Yes.

here.
-you

Can you just

21 22 23 24 2

were telling me about the assessment of Unit 4. MALE PARTICIPANT: fuel pool does not appear to Yes, be the Unit 4 spentas degraded it may still the need as we be to

thought earlier this morning. in a coolable configuration.

And so, And,

thus,

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251

1
2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 IC 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2 2 22 23 2 25

get water into that fuel pool. BILL BORCHARDT: MALE that they are Okay. John use was describing core

PARTICIPANT: continuing to

low-pressure

spray to cool all four units. BILL BORCHARDT: on all four units? MALE PARTICIPANT: BILL BORCHARDT: MALE PARTICIPANT: BILL BORCHARDT: is that the wall was still not Right. For the reactor? Yes. And what you were saying damaged like we thought in Low-pressure core spray

before, the No.

but there's 4 pool?

loss of water

inventory

Would that be right? It sounds like from the

MALE PARTICIPANT: steam and all, et cetera. out,

Now walls have been knocked they're not the walls of

but they're telling us

the spent-fuel pool. BILL BORCHARDT: MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE one idea. PARTICIPANT: So, we Okay. So, it's a thick -We had

(Inaudible). (inaudible,

(Inaudible).

possibly

"should think about tomorrow?") MALE PARTICIPANT: Is there any other

high-level update for Bill and the Chairman, John? NEALR. GROSS
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE, N.W.

252 JOHN interesting, 3 4 5 6 7 bulldozers they MONAGER: talk about One thing that in was the

the rad

fields

vicinity and being able to do work. these measurements are very high,

You know, some of and they have et

bulldozers cetera.

going through and cleaning up pathways,

They talked about the dose rates once the go through decreasing significantly, by

maybe 70 percent or so. 1 1 12 13 1 1 16 1 18 19 20 21 22 23 2 25 boiled down. reactor have to think, what is

And given the rad field, you causing that? if you rip apart your contamination, to believe in the

You know, of course, building, But you it you've got

residual

et cetera. that what

really out

would there

lead me is

have

fuel

environment. And there you had the spent-fuel pool that You had a zirc/water reaction. You

built up this steam. of the upper part of

You know, the

a certain percentage pool is bare.

spent-fuel

They had this explosion, out in the yard?

and who knows what got blown

BILL BORCHARDT: MALE PARTICIPANT:

Okay. They reported the rad

field was 20 to 30 rems. MALE PARTICIPANT: Yes.

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253 MALE PARTICIPANT: 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 1 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 2 2 permission MALE to put PARTICIPANT: it on their Now we don't We have think equipment the vast. miles TEPCO So, away titled in issues were MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: Was that 20 to 30 R? Twenty to 30 R. Thank you. Yes. Some of the

frustrating

that they were dealing with. maybe it truck that was the Air Force or they did not take

For example, previously, so, delivered a fire

advantage of. They have issues with vehicles that have to be not being

their country

escorted by

the police department. equipment because kinds of it in, and they

We talked about getting this said they couldn't take it

would have to be escorted and there's all restrictions on imports jazz, and all this, on

imports and all ridiculous. So, there, site,

that kind of

which was sort of

we talked about, to have which it

if

you could get the directly actually you know, going onto quite 40-50

airlifted said is

they

the notion of having it, and driving it down isn't

to work

site yet.

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254 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 try to controversy. MALE PARTICIPANT: Yes. you know, to go? MALE PARTICIPANT: will cause a huge Yes. But the airlift, the Defense we're going to get that in it both sides, the morning. But we have

that will be good. So, airlift is the way

MALE PARTICIPANT:

issue with

Department. MALE Japanese craft. MALE PARTICIPANT: They could fly it PARTICIPANT: Yes, in. They also want but they have

Yes.

our people to install the equipment and operate it. MALE PARTICIPANT: Yes, that will be a

I think that's pretty much it. MALE anything else? BILL BORCHARDT: repeat back what No. you I think, were let me just me. we still reactor has been lost high but So PARTICIPANT: Bill, do you need

telling

they're injecting water into all the cores. believe cores. there's The fuel damage in all three

spent-fuel

inventory on Unit 4 I mean There's release from

significantly significant radiation

compromised. amount of water.

we've been that,

levels

in

obvious

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255 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 1 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 because that we don't think anymore that the wall, pool, the has is

structural been

integrity wall of the spent-fuel compromised. the pool? So, the

severely

potential

solely to refill

MALE PARTICIPANT: BILL BORCHARDT:

That's correct. Okay. in Now what the area. I got And

lost on was they've had bulldozers after the bulldozers

went through to clear

the path,

the rad levels went down? MALE the PARTICIPANT: bulldozers pushed Significantly away all down the

contamination or all the fuel. BILL BORCHARDT: MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: here to there. BILL BORCHARDT: Right. That's just Okay. All right.

They just moved it. They just moved it from

confirming that there's been a significant release and a lot of (inaudible, possibly "flight out") in the

immediate area? MALE PARTICIPANT: BILL BORCHARDT: MALE Right. Okay. I've got it. When we said low-

PARTICIPANT: it's It's

pressure core spray, core spray system.

not the normal low-pressure just going through the core

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256 spray header that's taking it 2 3 that. Wait it, I lost it. a minute. I had one other -darn BILL BORCHAARDT: in -Yes, I understand

Yes.

4
5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 1 19 2 21 22 23 24 25 different changed with latest

I had a question. But, Bill, no even though to the

MALE PARTICIPANT: information,

there's

change

recommendations that we talked

that we've made, about earlier

the four key points morning that the

this

Chairman was on that call for? MALE PARTICIPANT: I would We not were say all at have

locations.

things

significant

enough

to change

any conclusions

you guys had. BILL BORCHARDT: MALE PARTICIPANT: Okay. Good. even though they

You know,

they said they've had core coolant for 48 hours, have no way to verify Mav Regardless, the thing's almost dry. So, you know, it.

there may be some nuances. So, Okay. no change, Bill. Thank

MALE PARTICIPANT: BILL BORCHARDT: you very much. If there is

All right.

anything --

I'm sorry?

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257 1 2 3 4 question. (inaudible, 6 7 MALE something for you. CHARLIE We're MILLER: getting Bill, third-hand I've got a PARTICIPANT: Bill, Charlie has

information is with

possibly "that Eliot

(phonetic)")

you and the Chairman. BILL BORCHARDT: CHARLIE MILLER: Not right now, no. We're getting requests

9 1

back from Public Affairs that the Chairman wants us to reduce the data (inaudible, possibly "runs") for the

modeling that we're getting.. 12 18 13 14 15 on that? BILL BORCHARDT: I'll

Have you heard anything

haven't

really

been

paying attention to that.

have to call you back. I don't want to burden

CHARLIE MILLER:

16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

him going into the hearing, but I would advise that we talk to him first before we make any such commitment

as to exactly what was what. BILL BORCHARDT: CHARLIE MILLER: on that, okay? BILL BORCHARDT: CHARLIE MILLER: you, Bill. BILL BORCHARDT: All right. Yes, I think so. Okay, thank Okay. So, we're going to hold

All right.

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258 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 11 12 13 14 1 16 17 18 19 2 21 22 23 2 2 pelletized first, this They with them is have meeting JOHN MONAGER: with them tomorrow. So, we have a So, 10:00 a.m.

our hope is

we can

get some of these answers hours, so we can go back.

within the next eight-nine But if they agree to it,

are we committing? MALE PARTICIPANT: John. Well, we're going to

to work that,

We'll do our best

to line

things up back here. But John's not dropping off yet. It's

just Bill and the Chairman dropping off. JOHN MONAGER: Okay. So, the next meeting

in eight hours. MALE PARTICIPANT:

Okay? Did you discuss any

need for boron, John? JOHN MONAGER: they were like, well, system, were shouldn't we They We if put talked about it. At

we're going to design the (inaudible) though, in? they

like yes.

didn't

say,

needed boron. We lead. talked about lead said and shielding and

And they

they built

blankets

with tungsten or something like that. MALE refueling outage. MALE PARTICIPANT: Yes. PARTICIPANT: Yes, for their

NEAL R.GROSS
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259 MALE PARTICIPANT: 2 They have that available. MALE E two other things through you, MIKE WEBER: 6 7 came Center? MIKE WEBER: 10 1i 12 13 14 19 15 16 17 nation. MALE PARTICIPANT: shared some stuff. No, c came by and No. MALE in. Sure, Mike? sure. So, the that, other in the day, Ops PARTICIPANT: How about, can I run And they can use that.

PARTICIPANT: Do you

remember

8 13

MALE PARTICIPANT: MIKE WEBER: Oh, I thought you meant the

iR

2[ 23

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2 3

6 7 8 9

12 1 12
13

1 1 1 19 2 21 22 23 2 25 would help going to

MALE PARTICIPANT: bring and it's up in is I know

The other we're best

thing I was in but

interested interest,

helping, it's

everyone's

unclear with regard to,

you know,

the culture or

the acceptability of requiring assistance from another nation or country. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE these PARTICIPANT: discussions or Right, I'm right. wondering if if it we

negotiations

said, you know, we could provide this equipment and we

NEAL R.GROSS
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

261 1 2 3 here. MALE PARTICIPANT: can do that or not. Yes, I'm not sure if but -we would not publicize that we are doing all this. MALE PARTICIPANT: We can work that back

We didn't mention it, Yes. -you know,

MALE PARTICIPANT:

MALE PARTICIPANT:

just don't

go issuing a ton of press releases, 9 1 11 12 13 14 i 1 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2 with and Casselberg. Related to boron, we understand what is MALE PARTICIPANT:

stuff like that. Yes, yes. We

the sensitivity.

We'll have to figure out

feasible. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: Right. Okay. Anything else?

That's it. I think that's


--

Rick's got a question. RICK CASSELBERG (phonetic): John, Rick

had a

conversation

the INPO executives they indicated that

a couple of they received

hours ago now, from multiple

channels --

and they can't actually find the source of that Japan was looking for boron. And

the request --

they located a stash at Diablo Canyon. And we and the Reactor Safety Team are

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262 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 trying to work we have something. already If, in fact, Japan

requests,

found a military transport We need to know what form where they need it for how they're

that can get it they need it, delivered,

to them.

how much they need, they have

and do

a plan

going to get it So,

to the site? it's all related to, you know, what

else do you need? 9 10 1 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2J list. originator. MALE PARTICIPANT: Yes. It must be a wish list. JOHN MONAGER: Right. So, now there's also a

RICK CASSELBERG:

I haven't looked through it. either. And I

I'm not sure it

Tim has,

believe you guys might have a page and a half of

already discussed it a list

with Chuck,

of requests to the U.S. MALE PARTICIPANT:

Government. Yes. We weren't sure.

what the source of that list RICK CASSELBERG: MALE

was,

either.

Okay. It didn't have an

PARTICIPANT:

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263

I
2 3 4 this stuff

MALE PARTICIPANT: Now still our isn't requests

Yes. or

Okay. our discussions It's on

with Toshiba yet.

with

the Government.

9
1

11
12 13 here.

MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT:

Okay.

Thank you. back

I think that's it

14
15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 maybe start that Charlie.

CHARLIE MILLER:

All right,

John.

This is

Have you got anything else of us back here of any nature? JOHN MONAGER: moving we're stuff aware in of Just let us just we let

that you need

know, us be

if know, able

you so to

closer, it, so

might

communicate that. CHARLIE MILLER: FEMALE thinking of All right. And Okay. we'll work on I

PARTICIPANT: some

communication for example,

strategies. "We won't

know that rather than,

saying,

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264 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 1 16 17 18 19 2C 21 22 23 24 25 26
(202) 234-4433

publish complete

it,"

maybe for

saying

like, it

"We'll and

give we're on

you just that.

credit or

requesting But

augmenting," So, we'll

whatever. it

we'll

work

think about

and come up with

something

for someone to consider. MALE PARTICIPANT: that topic with them. Well, we didn't raise why

We were

just

wondering

they're so slow or reluctant or hesitate. FEMALE PARTICIPANT: Yes, but I think

you're probably right. MALE PARTICIPANT: FEMALE some things. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: CHARLIE MILLER: MALE PARTICIPANT: very much for being there. MALE there. PARTICIPANT: Thank you for being Okay. All right. All right. Well, thank you, guys, Yes. Okay. But we'll work on

PARTICIPANT:

Talk to you soon. JOHN MONAGER: We're going to hang up now

then. CHARLIE MILLER: JOHN guys. Bye-bye. NEAL R. GROSS


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Okay. All

Thanks, right.

John. Thank you,

MONAGER:

265 (CONFERENCE CALL INITIATED) 2 3 4 MALE PARTICIPANT: JOHN MONAGER: we forgot to mention, or 6 7 8 9 1 11 12 13 1 1 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2 NEAL R.GROSS
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John? Mike?

Hello, Hey,

John. one thing you guys could you're

Hey,

and we're wondering if even Security Info

the

RST or maybe

folks

some brainstorming. going to be shooting the tops or

For the spent-fuel pools, the water sides of in these

fire sprays that's been

through

everything

blown apart.

And that's fine for Units 1, 3, MALE PARTICIPANT: Right. have

and 4.

But what do you a wall that's

do

with

Unit

2,

where

you

(inaudible)? JOHN MONAGER: blowup panel that's Yes. And they have a small open, but they said

partially

that's not going to cut it. So,

That won't be sufficient. you know, how do we

the question is,

open up that building? get coolant in. Plus,

We want the building open to you want the building open to

purge any hydrogen. we floated ideas, which didn't go over too well, with even such things as a rocket-propelled You know, we

grenade up there to just shoot through. talked about that.

The other thing we talked about is

roofing

266
1 MALE PARTICIPANT: A helicopter with a

2
3
4

ball on it

or something?
JOHN MONAGER:
you

Yes,
know,

helicopter

with
possibly

concentrated

weight,

(inaudible,

5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

"buff them through"). MALE PARTICIPANT: that on this wall. it offline. JOHN MONAGER: Okay. All right. What size hole do you Yes. Hey, let's not do

I think we've got it.

We'll work

MALE PARTICIPANT: want? JOHN MONAGER: meters, a decent hole.

I don't know,

4 meters by 4

A decent hole. Okay. they're going to meters-plus away.

MALE PARTICIPANT: JOHN MONAGER: be shooting water,

You know, 100

you know,

Wind's going to be all over the place. MALE PARTICIPANT: JOHN MONAGER: Yes.

All right. Okay. you know, with the rad

MALE PARTICIPANT: JOHN MONAGER: fields, et cetera, And,

they can't get people up there. Okay. Understood. the thoughts you know,

MALE PARTICIPANT: JOHN MONAGER: was, but the booms

Yes,

one of

won't go high enough, NEAL R.GROSS,

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267 1 2 3 these big forklifts with the big two prongs. on in it and pierce it, you know, piercing it Just go

and ripping

apart. You know, their concern with all these

5 6 7

ideas was the ability of the plant. gone through so much that they're

The plants have worried about

impact. MALE PARTICIPANT: And you've got a

9 1 1 1 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2

hydrogen risk environment potentially? JOHN MONAGER: Potentially, yes. Yes. Okay. You know, they're worse

MALE PARTICIPANT: JOHN MONAGER: worried about impact

Okay.

taking down the structure

than we would want. MALE PARTICIPANT: you're going through is Yes, and the material

a metal corrugated wall? It varies. like You know, in

JOHN MONAGER: the U.S. I they're, mean it's I call metal

them

super-aluminum but I think

siding.

corrugated,

over here it's severe strong

tougher because of the typhoons and the But metal within thing, the but U.S., it's a can

environment. corrugated

things

definitely punch through it. MALE PARTICIPANT: JOHN MONAGER: Okay. So, it's stronger over

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268 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 here, but it can still be punched through. Okay.

MALE PARTICIPANT:
JOHN MALE JOHN

MONAGER:

Good. We'll give you a call. Thanks.

PARTICIPANT: MONAGER:

All right.

MALE PARTICIPANT: JOHN MONAGER:

Thank you.

Bye-bye. Bye-bye.

MALE PARTICIPANT:

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269

(CONFERENCE CALL INITIATED) MALE PARTICIPANT: Josh coming up. I don't hear him. this is Josh. Josh.

3
4

MIKE WEBER: JOSH BATKIN: MIKE WEBER:

Josh? Hey, Hey,

6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 OPA.

JOSH BATKIN: MIKE WEBER: JOSH BATKIN: MIKE WEBER: JOSH BATKIN:

Who's that, Webber? Webber. Hello, Hi. Two points for you and for sir.

MIKE WEBER: JOSH BATKIN:

Okay. There has been some

confusion about whether or not,

when we do our press

release following the White House press release, which will be issued shortly, whether or not we also attach have used to come to those

17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

the

raw

data

that

we

conclusions. MIKE WEBER: JOSH clear, the BATKIN: Right. And from just the is yes. to be crystalas

directions

Chairman,

coordinated with his counterpart, MIKE WEBER: JOSH BATKIN: Okay.

So, we will release that raw assuming we can do

data when that press release goes, NEAL R. GROSS.

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270 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 call. CHARLIE MILLER: JOSH BATKIN: MIKE other agencies. JOSH BATKIN: MIKE WEBER: Correct, All right. correct. What we discussed WEBER: It's not our purview. we need discussing. it see simultaneously. the White If it is not ready right after we then is. trying to get that we do a quick

House

release,

supplemental release as soon as it MIKE WEBER: We're

ready right now, Josh. JOSH BATKIN: And, then, Okay. Great. Thank you. there were

the other point is

four points that have been sent around today. MIKE WEBER: JOSH BATKIN: Yes. Point No. 4, we are 4. not

The NRC is MIKE WEBER: JOSH BATKIN:

not discussion Point No. Okay. Publicly or otherwise.

So, not

to make

sure all 4.

of our messaging does

include Point No.

MIKE WEBER: JOSH BATKIN: MIKE WEBER:

Okay. Make sense? Makes sense. It's not our

Sorry, say that again? It's not our call. It's

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271 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 literally so. The and what it paragraph in with respect to Point 1 is JOSH BATKIN: MIKE WEBER: front of -Yes? -the need to provide like a results to provide

those model

some context to it. JOSH BATKIN: MIKE WEBER: JOSH BATKIN: Sure. Okay. It should explain what it Absolutely. Because there could is Absolutely.

means or how we used it. MIKE WEBER: Right.

be worse projections more of a release,

if a

we revised those runs higher source-term,

to show

different all that,

meteorological but
--

conditions.

You understand

JOSH BATKIN: MIKE WEBER: here among our technical blow make it out of

Right. -the sense I'm getting back you know, don't to the

experts is, either. a firm

proportion, we do

And we need basis for

certain

that

have

recommendations But

that we're providing. we think we can write up that

paragraph that will provide that context. JOSH BATKIN: Okay. Great. I mean that

needs to be ready in White House release

the next 10 minutes or I believe is getting

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272

ready to go soon.
2 3 MIKE WEBER: JOSH BATKIN: Okay. Okay. We're working it. Great. Any other

developments we need to talk to the Chairman or Bill 5 6 7 8 9 1 1 12 13 14 15 16 17 two? JOSH BATKIN: or something from earlier? MIKE WEBER: It was the one we discussed Within the last hour or two earlier call right now? MIKE that WEBER: You are aware from the for

Bill was on about

the request

assistance from the Japanese? JOSH BATKIN: You're aware of the request Bill?

for assistance from the Japanese, BILL BORCHARDT:

Within the last hour or

with him when John Monager was on the phone. JOSH BATKIN: John Monager was -yes, The one they discussed when he's aware. And so, we haven't formally And

18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25

MIKE WEBER: received that,

but we're acting as though we may.

so, we're trying to line up the equipment necessary to support that. JOSH received, BATKIN: Okay. Okay. Have Okay. not formally

but anticipating. MIKE WEBER:

Okay?

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273 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 1 1 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 JOSH BATKIN: MIKE WEBER: JOSH BATKIN: MIKE WEBER: JOSH BATKIN: MIKE WEBER: Okay. Thanks. Thank you. All righty. Josh out. Bye-bye. Thank you. Got it.

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274 (CONFERENCE CALL INITIATED) 2 3 4 MIKE WEBER: Hi. Mike Webber. Hey, Mike. help. I I want to

MALE PARTICIPANT:

talk and offer you some technical guys are a highly-skilled technical

know you but

organization,

I didn't know if the box. And,

you want some folks to think out of you know, we kind of worked on the

8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2C 21 22 23
24

Three-Mile Island thing, and we still of brains here. And I wanted

have those kinds you wanted

to know if

anybody like that in your Ops Center. MIKE WEBER: Sure. You're talking about

sending over some NRR staff? MALE PARTICIPANT: MIKE WEBER: MALE thinking is on a Sure. Yes. we'd welcome them. Okay. What I'm maybe

PARTICIPANT:

one or two folks from Headquarters, basis, and, then,

rotational

maybe some of our

lab folks. we've been thinking through this thing and have some options. a lot different about, I'll bet you they're not a hell of

than what you guys have been talking

but we ought to talk through it. I don't know if you've seen this, but the
out

--

who

are

they?

--

the TEPCO

folks have reached

25

directly to DOE and NNSA because of a personal contact

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275 saying, 2 3 guys. MIKE WEBER: Okay. "If you guys have any ideas, I've asked them to let us know." that with you

share

1 1 1 12 13

MIKE

WEBER: that with

Yes, folks

think

our

team

in

20

Tokyo is

doing

from METI and,

also,

from Toshiba.

22
23

MALE PARTICIPANT: we'll do is I will figure

Okay. out who

Good. the

So, heck

what we're

24 25

sending you in

the short-term. Okay.

MIKE WEBER:

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276 1 2 3 MALE PARTICIPANT: their way to see you, guys will let them in I'll And once they head on so you

give you a heads-up,

the building. Okay. Where are you, by the

MIKE WEBER:

MALE PARTICIPANT: 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 2 2 Billings. MALE PARTICIPANT: BRIAN: Brian? BRIAN: Call up way?

What floor are you on up there,

so they know how

to find you? MIKE WEBER: 2 White Flint. MALE PARTICIPANT: Okay. When they get We're on the fourth floor of

there, who should they ask for? MIKE WEBER: Who do you want them to see,

and

ask

for

Sally

Sally Billings?

That's right. Okay. would imagine they'll

MALE PARTICIPANT: MIKE WEBER: And I

be part of our Reactor Safety Team here. MALE PARTICIPANT: MIKE WEBER: Okay. that group is still

Because

brainstorming on what could be done to cool the pools and, also, cool the reactors. MALE PARTICIPANT: Okay. And you guys are

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277 1 2 3 4 going 24/7, right? MIKE WEBER: MALE That is correct. All right. We will

PARTICIPANT:

start sending somebody up there. MIKE WEBER: Okay. Great. Thank you.

6 7

MALE PARTICIPANT: MIKE WEBER:

Thank you, Yes.

Steve. Bye-bye.

8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

MALE PARTICIPANT: MIKE WEBER:

Bye-bye.

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1

(CONFERENCE CALL INITIATED) MALE PARTICIPANT: This is the

2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 bridges.

Headquarters Ops Officer. Hey, Mike, we're trying to Cathy Haney.

We have the other three. MIKE WEBER: MALE We're still

Do you want this connected? Yes. I'll connect the

PARTICIPANT:

waiting on Cathy Haney,

but I'll

put the other ones up on the bridge. MIKE WEBER: Okay. That's good. Thank you.

MALE PARTICIPANT: MIKE WEBER: 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Mike. Headquarters and Eric? MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: (Pause.) MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE

Thank you. Hello. Mike, Brian,

PARTICIPANT:

Stand by, please. Okay.

Okay.

This

is

the

Ops Officer.

The persons

requested are

on your bridge. MIKE WEBER: CATHY HANEY: BRIAN: Hi, Hi. Hi, Mike. This is Mike. Brian. Cathy, Br ian, Eric, and Mi ke Weber.

MALE PARTICIPANT:

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279
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 1 12 13 14 15 1 17 1 1 2 2 2 23 2 2 interest briefly. ERIC: JACK: ERIC: Yes, Eric, Thanks, Eric is this is Jack. on the line. Jack. I'm here.

MIKE WEBER: You know,

I just wanted to speak to you about to testify

the Chairman is

before the House Committee, press release -saying we no that

and we're going out with a we do not, with or that we

recommend recommended U.S.

longer

concur

the Japanese that

protective

action,

and we

recommend

citizens evacuate within 50 miles of the affected

nuclear power plant. That among is our likely to trigger a lot of and

congressional

committees

members for more information, get in the Chairman's

more than what they will in the hearing, et

testimony

cetera. a group

Consequently, such as

Bill asked that we put together senior managers, on what is that the

yourselves,

could be prepared

to get up-to-speed the U.S.

current conditions and what is from the NRC's perspective. in communicating

doing about it

So that you can be our with staff from the

ambassadors Members,

from the committees, So, I only ask Hopefully,

on what we're doing. that you give be that here some the

consideration.

you'll

remainder of the week,

when the priority needs will be

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280
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 in providing those kind of briefings. We'll make arrangements work with the staff back here to

to bring you up-to-speed,

equip you

with the tools that you need to do the communication, allow you to ask questions, et cetera, and, then, make

sure you're ready to go for those briefings tomorrow. Questions? BRIAN: No. Comments? That's fine. you know,

starting

1C
1i 1 13 1 1 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 doing is

I got a call -with the Chairman. MIKE WEBER: BRIAN: Chairman wanted code we have -MIKE WEBER: BRIAN: -She

Jennifer is

down

Right. called me and said that which is the

to MACCS,

the dose computer

Right. MACCS calculations done looking And so, to we've you

at an exclusion zone beyond 50 miles. got know. MIKE WEBER: So, Sandia all cranking on those,

just

let

this would be a

large-

scale release that would deposit contamination beyond 50 miles? BRIAN: Yes. Well, I mean, what we're

she says he thinks the exclusions, NEAL R. GROSS


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281 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 1 12 13 14 15 16 this is assumptions chance -chance look for an exclusion zone beyond 50 miles. I we don't have a lot of details I of what had a

should

be making.

haven't

you know,

she had to go, terms

and I haven't had a of what kind of a

to talk

to Sandia in

source-term they're assuming. MIKE WEBER: Brian, I would connect up

with PMP because they can share with you and research the current assumptions that we're making for the

calculations. BRIAN: Yes, okay. Okay. The other thing, press release Brian -we just I'll do that.

MIKE WEBER:

CHARLIE MILLER: Charlie -in

this

mentioned,

the Chairman directed us to attach the data So, we've got

that was used to support that decision. RASCAL runs out


--

17
1i 19 2C 21 22 23 24 25

CATHY HANEY: When I the was in

Charlie,

that's consistent. and we were in with the

there on Monday night, about not

same

position

agreeing

Japanese,

and going out with a press release -CHARLIE MILLER: CATHY HANEY: -Yes. that's one of the things

that was -CHARLIE MILLER: (Inaudible) cleared the

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282 i 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 for. MIKE WEBER: All right. heads-up that Okay? ERIC: No problem. That's what we're here from here. that, question. So, you've got a bunch of material to be spokesmen stakeholders. if that's we get White House. release, And so, it's going out with the press

just so you know that. CATHY HANEY: Yes, yes.

CHARLIE MILLER: ERIC: Mike?

Okay.

MIKE WEBER: ERIC: Mike,

Go ahead. this is Eric. I've got a

assembled and you want us

questions from congressional come to the Ops Center

Should we information?

to pick up that

How do you want to handle the logistics? MIKE WEBER: We'll work out the logistics

We don't need to take your time now to do work with your staff to make those

but we'll

arrangements. ERIC: Terrific. Thank you.

MIKE WEBER:

I just wanted to give you the

that we may be calling upon you to provide of support over the next several days.

kind

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283 1 2 3 4 on the mean, line, BRIAN: Okay. Hey, while I've got you well, both of you? I

MALE PARTICIPANT: can I talk with,

I'm sorry, Charlie and Mike. CHARLIE MILLER: MALE PARTICIPANT: Okay. The others can stay on your interest.

5
6 7 8 9 or not,

depending on what is Charlie? CHARLIE MILLER: MALE PARTICIPANT:

Yes,

sir. you asked me I have

I.
11 12 13 14 i 16 17 18 19 2 21 22 23 24 2

You know,

to touch base with the RAs about the RSLOs. done that. I talked to all four RAs. Mike, you might be interested in

knowing

that I gave them a heads-up on the current situation, the gravity, -

r
to themselves. we talked about

U
1 asked them

to please keep it And

the

challenges

that

the Regions are facing with regard to communications. We have sent them a copy of the Chairman's Q&As he went down to the Hill with. to work our share points side. possibly that, "Nancy" or "an NCS") that

And we're continuing I've put (inaudible, charge of so that we

as manager in

and we're going to add more staff,

can expedite communications.

And we think that that's

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284 I 2 3 4 5 6 7 a 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 working interested with Scott. support Okay? MALE PARTICIPANT: So, A in. Yes, and I had talked email. going right? to be a huge challenge going forward. All

But I did that. Oh, yes, and Charlie, I also sent an

I talked with Josie Piccone. (phonetic),

I sent an email

to her and Rosetta

also sending them the

Chairman's Q&As and to let them know that I've touched based with the Regional Administrators. CHARLIE MILLER: from FSME on that, Great. just work So, if you need Scott.

through

that's one item. second item, we, Mike, NRR, you might be

You know,

took the lead for

scheduling this Commission meeting next week. MIKE WEBER: MALE Right. All right. We

PARTICIPANT:

assembled a scheduling note. shortly via email. And on our I'm sure

You'll be receiving it

that

we're over

going

to

be but

talking points

the weekend,

we've got you at the table. you, table cover. Marty with Virgilio, basic Eliot,

I've got Bill Borchardt, and me sitting we're at the to

topic

areas

that

going

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MIKE WEBER:

What day are we doing this? Well, I was hoping it My staff for Monday. have to work it says

MALE PARTICIPANT:

was going to be Tuesday or Wednesday. that the Commission is pushing for it Yes, we'll too, Yes,

MIKE WEBER:

with staffing the Ops Center, MALE PARTICIPANT: MIKE WEBER: MALE it. MIKE WEBER: Okay.

right? sir. out.

But we'll work it Okay.

PARTICIPANT:

We're working

MALE PARTICIPANT: MIKE WEBER:

All right.

Thank you. Very good. That's all

MALE PARTICIPANT: I've got. MIKE WEBER:

We'll let you go. Thank you. Thank you, Eric.

MALE PARTICIPANT: CHARLIE MILLER: MIKE WEBER: ERIC:

Thank you. Bye.

All right.

MIKE WEBER:

Bye-bye.

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286

1
2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 1i 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Amy Powell. huge favor,

(CONFERENCE CALL INITIATED) JOSH BATKIN: Hi. This is Josh. Josh. ask a quick, Hello.

MALE PARTICIPANT: JOSH BATKIN: please? MALE PARTICIPANT: JOSH BATKIN: Hi.

Go ahead, Could I

Sure.

Can you please email Rebecca summary of

Schmidt and Amy Powell with a very brief the PEGs as well reached? It

as the levels at which the PEGs are It does need

does not need to be pretty.

to be very quick. MALE PARTICIPANT: JOSH BATKIN: Okay.

Thank you. Right. We've got it.

MALE PARTICIPANT: JOSH BATKIN: Okay.

Thanks. Becky, Josh, and Eliot.

MALE PARTICIPANT:

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287 (CONFERENCE CALL INITIATED) 2 3 4 MIKE WEBER: JOHN MONAGER: Hi, John. Hi, Mike. How you doing,

sir?
MIKE WEBER: JOHN MONAGER: Okay. Good, How are you? good, good. It's

7 8 9 12 1 1 13 1 1 18 17 18 going on. the morning.

MIKE WEBER: two o'clock in

Are you getting rest?

the morning over there. Yes, it is two o'clock in

JOHN MONAGER:

So, It's

it's

interesting,

just

everything

actually quite busy.

2
21.

22 23 24 25

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1 2 3 4

6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 or not what, it's any MALE PARTICIPANT: The status of whether or

moving this way or can it updates you can have for

be moved, the

Ambassador

would be good. MALE PARTICIPANT: NEAL R.GROSS


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Are you talking about

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289 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 hurt if he's guys' having the call that takes place at 0800 Washington time? MALE PARTICIPANT: JOHN MONAGER: it here I'm not sure -0800 because which is your

Probably not

tomorrow morning,

tomorrow night. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: JOHN MONAGER: Yes. Okay. So, this sounds like

something within just maybe the -MALE PARTICIPANT:


JOHN MONAGER: --

State Department?
the Department of State

or maybe multiple departments, isn't part of. So, good potential you know, it

et cetera,

that the NRC

just seems that there is I'm not sure exactly

for a disconnect.

who we reach out to within the Department of Defense, et cetera, and it probably goes And if to a list of

individuals who are working it. this request here, of people, it and will

they send out to different parties

probably go

groups

you'll

have multiple

chasing the same thing. MALE that PARTICIPANT: support that is lines Yes. up in Well, it can't the for

advance

diplomatic channel

going to be necessary right?

the request that actually come in,

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290 1
2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 11 12 13 14 15
16 17 Joe -he

JOHN MONAGER: MALE

Okay.

Yes. What we're doing is

PARTICIPANT:

preparing for receipt of the request. JOHN MONAGER: Right. So that we're able to

MALE PARTICIPANT: respond promptly, should it JOHN MONAGER: thought is, federal too,

be made. Right. Well, I think the

I'm not sure how much will the other get back "No, to you and we don't," say, "Yes, we

agencies

have this equipment," it

or "Yes,

we have

and we think we can get it MALE PARTICIPANT:

out there in That's

22 hours." what they're

working on right now, John. JOHN MONAGER: have that kind of details? I did see Joe Williams
put together a hand -I guess it was which

So,

you think that you'll

schematic,

18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

actually equipment, reading it

looked et off

pretty

good, And I

and think but it

the it's

list --

of well,

cetera.

the BlackBerry --

looks pretty

much like what we described. MALE PARTICIPANT: Well, that's good

because that's what we gave him. JOHN MONAGER: guys' Yes. So, where does your

request for assistance go to? NEAL R. GROSS


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291 1 2 3 4 Charlie. 6 7 8 9 1 1 1 13 1 15 1 17 18 19 2 21 22 23 24 2 U.S. to the hopefully -Naval Reactors called and they're going to be sending somebody to come over and sit 24/7. So, with the RST through channels, the MALE PARTICIPANT: well, We're working through all it back

military,

different

but that's the primary channel. CHARLIE MILLER: Hey, John, this is

that will give us somebody embedded here. JOHN MONAGER: That would be good. Yes, there was a desire out-of-the-box our Japanese

MALE PARTICIPANT: to participate thinking colleagues. JOHN MONAGER: you know, Yes. to with us in

doing some to

provide

assistance

I mean it

would also, of little

we've had a couple

mixed thoughts on the information out there between us and Naval Reactors, be good. MALE PARTICIPANT: same conclusion. So, Yes, we I think they came appreciate their and having everyone together would

support and welcome their cooperation. JOHN MONAGER: Japan Forces here -MALE PARTICIPANT: JOHN MONAGER: -Yes? wanting to know what the Now we also got a call from

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292 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 2 23 2 2 if status of the units and the spent-fuel pools, gave that, and we And there come

and, essentially, how could they help. you know, et there is cetera; this call out maybe it would

I mentioned, for the

equipment, et cetera.

their way,

But these two guys, Cory Wright (phonetic) and Alex Robinson (phonetic), they want to stop by

maybe once a day or so,

fly up and visit, just to see

how the military, the U.S. military on the islands out here could provide more assistance. MALE PARTICIPANT: use your contacts. (phonetic). that, if AID So, can Yes, I would, I mean,

You're there as part of the DART that's be an interagency to bear to initiative make the that

brought

arrangements

to transport some of these things,

would also be beneficial. JOHN MONAGER: MALE Right. You have the diagram

PARTICIPANT:

now that We drew up. JOHN MONAGER: Yes. it So, you guys are fine through other routes

we just continue to pass

then? MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: Oh, absolutely. The Ambassador, he kind

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293 1 2 3 to know if, yes, we do have some of that equipment

here or if get it all,

we had a status as to whether or not we can or what. MALE PARTICIPANT: Now that we don't know

5 6 7

yet. MALE morning, is PARTICIPANT: Six o'clock in the

that when the call is?

We're supposed to So, when you find

call him anytime during the night. 9 1 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2C 21 22 23 24 25


--

something out, we need to know. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: other things, too. Okay. I guess there were two internal memo or

There was some

status report I guess DOE was sending out. MALE PARTICIPANT: Yes, here at the

Embassy they're going to be sending out an evacuation order for Japan here 50 miles radius of the plant. that to be

I'm not word

sure exactly but

when they're going to put people are going

out,

non-essential

evacuated. JOHN MONAGER: Now is that consistent with

the discussions you guys had with Chuck earlier? CHARLIE MILLER: JOHN MONAGER: CHARLIE MILLER: Yes. Go ahead. Yes. You're saying that John. This

I want to make sure I got that clear, NEALR.GROSS


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294 1 2
3
4 is going

is

Charlie. JOHN MONAGER:


CHARLIE
to make this

Yes.
The Japanese Government

MILLER:
decision?

5 6 7 8 9 1 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 meeting Okay? decision have is

MALE PARTICIPANT: JOHN MONAGER: CHARLIE No,

No,

the U.S.

Embassy.

the U.S. Well,

Embassy for -(inaudible) and we a

MILLER:

consistent with what we're doing, instructed by the Chairman to

been

prepare

press release that says that,

that would go out right

after the Ambassador puts his out. JOHN MONAGER: CHARLIE Okay. It's Okay. out Yes, to I 50 miles.

MILLER:

MALE PARTICIPANT: JOHN when MONAGER: was Yes, We here,

That's correct, were and, at a

yes.

different we never

Chuck

then,

touched based again. CHARLIE instructed by the done. RASCAL

okay. We've to attach that, also been file, have

MILLER:

the Chairman that

the data which we

ones,

support

MALE PARTICIPANT: coordinated at the highest Government.

And this has been all

level of the United States

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295

1
2 3 4 exactly been

MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE when PARTICIPANT: send and,

Okay. But

All right. we don't but by know it's the

they'll by us

that then,

order

out, off

reviewed

signed

people here at the Embassy. 6 7 8 9 i0 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2C 21 22 23 24 25 Tony, fill here. MALE PARTICIPANT: Okay. John, we're that, has that you got MALE should be bracing PARTICIPANT: for questions. Okay. Embassy staff

Because when we go

out with our press release, lot of interest and questions. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: know,

that's going to garner a

All right.

Yes.

And the issue there is order, somebody that that

a 50-mile evacuation that to, into and

to translate pertain

the Prefectures we don't have

would

information here. CHARLIE MILLER: MALE PARTICIPANT: told that State And in Yes. has kilometers. Just issued an update, their press

release,

and we're in the process of issuing ours. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: Okay. Then, the other thing, He wanted to just

he had attended you guys in

a meeting.

on what some of their plans were out

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296 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 .14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 kind of the details that. team, basically Affairs, a Nakanishi. I attended mixture NISA. of a Conti METI, And meeting. Ministry of It was TONY NAKANISHI: Hi, Mike. This is Tony

Foreign they

TEPCO,

the sense was

that

were very forthcoming with the information. MIKE WEBER: Good. We went through a lot of

TONY NAKANISHI: in

terms of the chronology and stuff like

And I think a lot of the assumptions that the the NRC staff team, has is consistent with what

we have discussed during that meeting. One of the things, in one of the items that the

came up was

terms of

the next steps,

immediate steps, situation. feedback. debris pool pool. And And And

related to the Unit 4 spent-fuel pool they this were sort of to, looking for some the

pertained

basically,

that has blocked

the access

to the spent-fuel

for the fire trucks

to hose down the spent-fuel

one

gentleman

from

the

Ministry

of

Foreign Affairs had called me just a couple of hours ago. You know, he kind of apologized. He assumed

that he woke me up. But they indicated that they are going to NEAL R. GROSS
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297 move forward with this plan to go forward and remove 2 3 4 if there the debris and proceed to get the facility to cool the spent-fuel pool. At the meeting earlier, were any risks to that. that with that they had asked me they should be

considering 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 1 16 17 18 19 2 21 22 23 24 25 addition encounter, to to do that to and

relative

And I had

indicated

that we'll discuss back to them.

the team here and get

And I didn't know that they were planning in do in a is few hours now. to call the So, what we are NISA I

planning contact,

contact, the

the

consultation with

team here,

think we are basically saying that at this point you ought to move forward with that, understanding that

there is potentially going to be some harm to whoever is going to be conducting that. MALE the PARTICIPANT: high rad Tony, obviously, likely in in to a

fields

they're

I mean they could also be operating

hydrogen-rich environment. TONY NAKANISHI: MALE Right. And so, if they're they need

PARTICIPANT:

going to clear that debris with machinery, to be careful. Dave Skeen is walking in. NEAL R.GROSS
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298 Dave, he's been having we're talking to Tony Nakanishi, productive discussions with and his

counterparts in Japan. DAVE SKEEN: MALE to, in Okay. Good. And they're preparing

PARTICIPANT:

several hours I think, enter the Unit 4 area to clearing about debris. what And risks so, they're may having as

begin

discussions

they

encounter

they go about doing that. MALE are going to be PARTICIPANT: clearing Just understand in front of they the

the road

building so they can get the fire truck in. just moving debris outside now. MALE PARTICIPANT: outside of the building? MALE PARTICIPANT: fire truck close enough. if there's that anything, maybe we So, Yes, Oh, okay. So,

They're

they're

they can't get the

they just wanted to see moving that, any of

while thought

they're

risk that any


--

they should

be aware

they might not be aware of.

But we don't have

MALE stable taking

PARTICIPANT: are, but I

We

don't if

know you

how are the

the buildings a bit of the

assume, from

debris

away

around

building, you should be okay. NEAL R.GROSS


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299 1 2 3 4 don't 6 7 8 9 10 1 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 2 22 23 24 2 they tried, over Unit 4? TONY NAKANISHI: I guess they Yes, that's correct. And But time. MALE PARTICIPANT: And was it directly we know MALE PARTICIPANT: We're going to tell

them to just do whatever it

takes to get the stuff out

of the way to get that fire truck in. MALE what PARTICIPANT: the R field Yes. might Right. be And we but

there,

they're looking at it. MALE PARTICIPANT: readings for you, if We do have some actual

you want them. Yes. Helicopter over Unit 4,

MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: 247 millisieverts per hour. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE unfortunately. Did they mention it, TONY NAKANISHI: have the time. PARTICIPANT:

What elevation? We don't have that,

Tony? I should have asked. was about 5:30 Japan

No. That

tried to do the same thing

for Unit 3, told them it

but they decided not to because something might have been higher. MALE PARTICIPANT: NEAL R. GROSS That the levels over

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300 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 1 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MALE PARTICIPANT: (inaudible) shine. 3 is gas (inaudible). MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: the rad load except Unit 3 and Unit 4. The control room, millirem per hour, they're saying about 200 onsite Keep going. That's all we had for between Unit 4 is When gas gets released, probably just shine, and building, MALE PARTICIPANT: TONY NAKANISHI: Fuel pool. -yes, fuel pool and Unit 3 would be higher? MALE PARTICIPANT: rads were too high. MALE PARTICIPANT: TONY NAKANISHI: Wow! M M That's what they said;

basically. MALE PARTICIPANT: So, Unit 3 might be

more degraded than Unit 4 in terms of spent-fuel? MALE PARTICIPANT: We don't know.

the 20 to 30 rem around,

and they do have personnel NEAL R.GROSS

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301 still in the control rooms of all the units. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT:
They said that's the general

All control rooms? They didn't say "all".


-and the place that

they

keep got in

the

people 50

while people,

they're or area I

not don't

on

shift, 200 200

they've people,

like

know, about

another

staging

that's

millirems background. That's all they would give out. TONY number, that's room NAKANISHI: They mentioned 30, the

a 30-people figure for staffing. the staffing relative But it

I'm assuming

to possibly the control seemed like it's not a

at some point.

constant number. MALE PARTICIPANT: TONY NAKANISHI: you know, I Anything else? So, no, just in summary,

think they're very open.

MALE Okay.

PARTICIPANT:

Wow,

that's

good.

MALE PARTICIPANT:

Now,

you know,

one of

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302 the things, 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 1 12 13 14 15 1 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 heightened we're terms of forthcoming of little Tony was talking about his meeting and how they were, points of et cetera. disconnect There was a couple between our meeting

being briefed and Tony's. were much more optimistic, you know. been But, I mean, you I

You know, I think,

our meeting they on core cooling, pretty much mixed

think that's just keep

universal,

that

getting

stories. MALE PARTICIPANT: The important thing is

that you're making contact and you're opening up those channels of communication. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: our ability to work Yes. That's so important in with them to provide

whatever assistance we can. We are probably going to be entering a

period of sensitivity here because of what to do with the release of our

about

announcement. your ability

And just hope that to communicate

that doesn't chill counterparts,

with your

because they're at their most critical phase right now and we've got to work with them. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: guys are there. Yes. So, thank goodness you the American flag,

You are carrying NEAL R. GROSS

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303

I
2 3

and you're doing a great service to the country. MALE possibility So, PARTICIPANT: Well, there may be a else, also.

that we may locate somewhere

we will keep you guys informed if

we need to move

out of here. MALE PARTICIPANT: 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 1 16 17 18 19 2 21 22 23 24 2 phones. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: CHARLIE
before you get off --

Yes,

by all means, but we're to do

you just the

need

to

take that

care you're

of

yourselves, there and

thankful

working

benefit of the world. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: Yes. Well, if you can get us we would like It's tough

some good news by six o'clock morning, to have the Ambassador smile a little around here. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: So, if

bit.

Dave's working on it. Okay. All right. our cell

we head out,

we'll have

Okay. All right. Hey,


Charlie.

Thanks. and Tony,

MILLER:
this is

John

JOHN MONAGER: CHARLIE MILLER:

Yes. In your future meetings,

when they have made note about how low the levels were NEAL R.GROSS
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304 1 2
3

in

the control rooms -JOHN MONAGER:


CHARLIE MILLER:

Right.
-if there's any way to

4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 2.3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 2 2

find out how they're maintaining in operators, that would be important,

that room for the because they've

got no power; backup.

they've got no AC; they've got no diesel probably have no control over the

They

ventilation system. TONY NAKANISHI: CHARLIE MILLER: them that low? Right. So, how are they keeping

CHARLIE MILLER: JOHN MONAGER: CHARLIE attention. Yes. TONY NAKANISHI:

Yes. Let's just put it That really that way. caught my

MILLER:

Okay.

I'll

definitely

keep that on my mind next time. CHARLIE MILLER: okay? TONY NAKANISHI: CHARLIE MILLER: MALE good. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Sounds Just as an aside thing,

PARTICIPANT:

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305 1 2 3 Thank you, Charlie. Thank you, All right. guys. Bye-bye.

CHARLIE MILLER: TONY NAKANISHI:

IC

ic

11
121

13
14 15

1E

2C 21

22

26
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306

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10

(CONFERENCE CALL INITIATED) MALE PARTICIPANT: Operations Officer. I This is a Headquarters wanting to

have Chuck

Casto

come up on the bridge. BRUCE: Put him up, please. Thank you.

MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: BRUCE: Chuck. CHUCK CASTO: BRUCE: Yes, It it is is, Are

Good morning. you there? This is Bruce,

a good morning for us. and very early, too.

1 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2 is whether Bill minute?

CHUCK CASTO:

Yes.

Can we just talk for a

BRUCE:

Yes,

sir. Is there anything I should

CHUCK CASTO: do or be aware of? BRUCE: Borchardt of

All we can say is been before and

the Chairman and Houses, both

have

both

portions

the Congress, So,

just got

grilled on a

lot of things.

we don't know what actually will

come back to us with that regard. But one question that Eliot has been asked we have any people onsite. in Tokyo. And I

understand that everybody with you is CHUCK CASTO: Yes,

that's one of my goals

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307 today, 2 3 is we're supposed to be able to get to the

regulators'

EOC today,

and we're trying to get

to the

EOC for TEPCO. MALE PARTICIPANT: What's the time on that

5 6 7

one? BRUCE: Where are those, Chuck? We don't know where they're

CHUCK CASTO: at.

9 1 1 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2 21 22 23 24 2 miles. working on, site.

BRUCE:

Are they closer to the site? Yes, they're closer to the

CHUCK CASTO:

BRUCE:

Outside of Tokyo? Yes. And I'm trying to get I've

CHUCK CASTO:

to the site, but I just don't know how to do it. got to figure that out today. BRUCE: we're Okay. trying

The other thing that we're to get a little better

release information and projections, We can do that for 50 miles.

dose projections. for

And we're looking -to

something beyond that, FEMALE

and that's (inaudible) One hundred

PARTICIPANT:

200

CHUCK CASTO: BRUCE: CHUCK Yes? CASTO:

Hey,

Bruce?

Just

for

you

and

to

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308 brainstorm, I came, I guess, to the conclusion this This of

morning that this has really overwhelmed TEPCO. is a national emergency for them, and it's

sort

like BP and the oil spill. for TEPCO. BRUCE:

You know,

this is

too big

And that's understandable.

BRUCE: Do you

No,

I don't think so. Chuck, that we made the

know,

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309

1
2

recommendation

that

U.S.

citizens

be

evacuated

from

within 50 miles of the site? CHUCK yesterday. CASTO: Yes, we worked on that

That was chaos.

6
7 8 9 10 11 12 :13 14 15 16 17

18
19
20 21 22 23 24 25 receptive It to us, looks like TEPCO is being much more that they

to John and Tim and those guys So,

are putting together mitigative strategies. seem to be more receptive to advice and help. BRUCE: might be overwhelmed. Well, I can understand

how they

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310 I CHUCK CASTO: So, when you talk to Bill

5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 don't know CHUCK CASTO: how much


but

You know, know

Naval Reactors, what

you
--

about

happened

yesterday on that,

BRUCE:

A little

bit.

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.311

1
2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15
16 first --

CHUCK CASTO: suggested, there. BRUCE: Okay. you know,

But they were the ones that need to cross the line

they

CHUCK CASTO: we're here. I

So,

anyhow,

I guess

11l -to get a

don't know if

you know how

hold of me or us here. BRUCE: FEMALE liaison numbers, team has Somebody knows. PARTICIPANT: everybody's Yes. numbers, I think cell the

phone

and stuff. MALE PARTICIPANT: We have his BlackBerry

number of here. FEMALE PARTICIPANT: BRUCE: I'm BlackBerry numbers. This is my

getting a yes.

17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2 land line, is. It

CHUCK CASTO:
BRUCE: -shift,

Shift?
yes. So, I'm
--

CHUCK CASTO: but I

I'm

talking

to

you

off

have no idea what

the phone number

ends inI M.J.: That's okay. I know, in This is M.J. I We've the

got your numbers, liaison We've team has

the back. we've and got get

think

them to

and

them Jim

around. and Tony

been

able

reach

out

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312 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 IC 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2 21 22 23 24 25 suggested (inaudible) think what we get -whenever we need. CHUCK CASTO: I think we What I'll do is, have three as soon as this

briefings TEPCO. each of

morning. soon as

We have more meetings with I get those briefings, I'll

And as those

briefings,

M.J.

and Bruce,

call you and give you

a download on that. But I think what we're waiting on is, waiting to on the is, what is DoD's I

we're with

capability

regard

request

for resources they

that we sent in

last night?

I think, last I saw,

said they could get back to us in

eight hours and tell

us how much of that stuff they can get done. M.J.: talking about? CHUCK CASTO: the pumping systems. M.J.: got that. Okay. Yes, I know, I think Yes, the equipment list and That's that equipment list you're

I know that effort is The other thing is going to need a

ongoing. somebody to

CHUCK CASTO: that they're

sea boom

protect the suction of that -Didn't you suggest that? that we sent in,

I think it

was Richard.

That along with that design

that they are probably going to need the suction as well. I don't

a sea boom to protect

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313 1 2 3 know. happen. VONNA ORDAZ: How are you? CHUCK CASTO: 6 7 8 9 IC 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 is harm's way, VONNA ORDAZ: Good. Question: you mentioned you Chuck, this is Vonna Ordaz. You know, we'll see if they can make that

were heading to the site or trying to get to the site? CHUCK CASTO: VONNA ORDAZ: Yes. Are you familiar with the

doses around the (inaudible)? CHUCK CASTO: Yes. Yes, I think ECO, what where of

we're talking about the site is they're working out of that is

the local not in

that

kind

dose field. VONNA ORDAZ: Okay. Don't put yourself in

MALE PARTICIPANT: Chuck. CHUCK CASTO: considered a site; VONNA that is to the -CHUCK CASTO: it at. is. We're still But, you know, No, it's Yes,

I think, you know,

that

at 'the EOC, You don't

the local EOC. know how close

ORDAZ:

21
22 23 24 2

we don't know how close to figure out where fortunate, NISA, it's they

trying we

were

agreed and we're getting into their ECO, NEAL R.GROSS


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314 I 2 3 4 Headquarters 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 .16 17 18 19 20 21 2 23 give to get him? BRUCE: Yes, he is. Yes, I'm on the bridge. All right. I'm going to just a This is talking, is. Somebody is And doing that this morning. it looks like, the way TEPCO their EOC. is the is

I'm hoping that they'll put us in MALE PARTICIPANT: This

Ops Officer.

We have Bill Borchardt and

the Chairman coming up on the bridge. BRUCE: BILL Bill. MALE PARTICIPANT: BILL BORCHARDT: Is Hi, Chairman. Okay. BORCHARDT: Good afternoon. Hi.

The Chairman's with me. or is it possible

Chuck on the bridge,

CHUCK CASTO:

BILL BORCHARDT: the phone here to

the Chairman

who has

couple of questions. CHUCK CASTO: Okay. Hello. Chuck Casto Hey, Chuck. Hey,

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: CHUCK CASTO: NRC CHAIRMAN can you just -in any way, Yes,

sir?

JACZKO:

and I don't want you to interpret this

24
25

questioning anything - I am just trying to

confirm what the source of our information is. NEAL R.GROSS


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315 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 1 13 14 1 16 17 18 19 2C 21 22 23 24 25 progress TEPCO is on to, well, got TEPCO. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: CHUCK CASTO: us Okay. Government. CHUCK CASTO: Which information? TEPCO -Okay.
--

Mainly,

our source of information is

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: CHUCK CASTO: I

and

Conti,

the

We're embedded,

think we're doing 24/7

with their Government meeting. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: pool indications, team in Japan? So, the spent-fuel I would say, our

that's coming from,

Would that be acceptable? CASTO: Yes, they're coming from

CHUCK

They've been more receptive the cooling system, to DoD, and and

and designing in on

we've

requests

the equipment

they're getting back with how much equipment they can get in here. They've already, I understand that

they've started to move those big four pumps the site. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: CHUCK CASTO: getting I So, you're -that and

towards

think

we're making suggestions.

involvement

reaching out to us now on the designs of the systems. And John and all the guys are

mitigating

putting together a design,

and we're working on it.

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11
1 2 3

5 6 7

8
9 10

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: CHUCK CASTO: NRC just to repeat, believe one of CHAIRMAN Yes.

That you can imagine. JACZKO: Yes. 4 is is So, dry, again, and we

we believe pool No. the other pools

potentially

structurally damaged? CHUCK CASTO: That's correct. Okay. And again


--

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: CHUCK CASTO:

That's the best we know. Yes. certainly 4, know, I the

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: CHUCK CASTO:

And we

think we absolutely know that pool No. walls have collapsed -NEAL R. GROSS
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317 NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: CHUCK CASTO: -Okay. 4. because that

on pool No.

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: I'm going to get asked the

And again,

question,

where's

coming from. E is in Japan

I'm going to say it's that is embedded that is

from a team that working closely

with the Japanese utility agency, is that correct? CHUCK CASTO:

and the Japanese regulatory

IC

Correct. Okay. That's all I

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: 11 12 13 need. BRUCE: Chuck,

before you go -Yes?

CHUCK CASTO: BRUCE: --

you indicated that the walls of

15 1 19 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

the pool were damaged or down? CHUCK CASTO: Yes. I'm not going to get

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: into that level of detail. is it's dry. CHUCK CASTO: inventory at all. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: you. I appreciate it. CHUCK CASTO: MALE Yes, Yes,

I mean the relevant factor

and they can't maintain

Okay.

Good.

Thank

sir. Chuck, we got a

PARTICIPANT: NEAL R.GROSS

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318 1 2 3 4 hours ago. 6 7 8 9 10 1 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 consistent. were told, dropped off. MALE PARTICIPANT: But it's okay because But the the CHUCK CASTO: Chairman that Well, then, that's I need to tell not what we briefing before from Tony and John, and they indicated

that there was structural integrity to the core pool. CHUCK CASTO: MALE When was that? That was about four

PARTICIPANT:

because

understood just a few hours ago. MALE PARTICIPANT: Yes, we relayed that

information after we got it CHUCK CASTO: MALE Is

from your team. the Chairman still No. I think on? he's

PARTICIPANT:

he's not going to get into that level of detail. we just need to be careful about consistency I know it's in

assessment of change, too.

the information.

going to

CHUCK

CASTO:

Yes,

well,

we

were

That's what we heard;

that's the last we

that the walls were not there. MALE PARTICIPANT: Right. Because our

discussion with part of your team was we thought you had abandoned that pool the notion of putting coolant back in

and that you were looking more at dropping NEAL R.GROSS


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319 1 2 3 at sand or something else like that? CHUCK CASTO: all yesterday. We were No, we didn't suggest that

The Reactor still

Safety Team suggested with water on all

the sand. four pools.

working

And, 7 Let's prepare moving. 9


10

then,

said

let's

go

both

ways.

for water and sand,

get both solutions

MALE we had was that

PARTICIPANT: there was

So,

the latest update to the 4 pool,

integrity

although it 111 12 13

had drained or evaporated. CHUCK CASTO: FEMALE Dry? Bill, what did you

PARTICIPANT:

receive from Jim? MALE PARTICIPANT: 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2E


NI,,AL M. UlJD;) COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701

Bill Ruan (phonetic) is

in

the room,

too,

Chuck. PARTICIPANT: He's been on the

FEMALE phone with Jim. BILL

RUAN

(phonetic):

Okay.

just

talked to Jim Trapp. background from. of where

And let me try to give you the some of this information comes

(2021 234-4433

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320

1 2

And he basically,

CHUCK 7 8 9 that's what I was

CASTO;

Yes,

they

can't You

keep

--

told last

night.

cannot

get

inventory above the bottom of the fuel. BILL RUAN: No. What Jim told me

11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 is gone, And basically, and at least in his opinion, everything else and, of course, pool left. CHUCK CASTO: BILL RUAN: Right. Unit 3, he believes CHUCK CASTO: So, it's drained.

MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: BILL RUAN: CHUCK CASTO: you can't get water in BILL RUAN: it. Yes,

Right.

Right. Yes. Right, right. I was saying,

That's what

because

there's no fuel

Chuck knows this, Jim's opinion is NEALR.GROSS

there's no water in

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321 the pool. 2 3 FEMALE PARTICIPANT: BILL RUAN: Unit 2, you that hole. CHUCK CASTO: BILL RUAN: 10 11
12

Unit 3?

Unit 3. it's drying out. now, that If hole that

he believes

look at

the top of

the building

they created,

there's

steam coming out of

It's

in

dryout. out. might be

They're drying it the only pool

And, okay is Unit 1.


In

then,

that

our

discussion

--

and,

Chuck,

hope

13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 2 2

you're doing well,

by the way

--

what we don't know is

what Jim told me was Daiene has declared an emergency on Unit, they've declared an evacuation. So, maybe you triage this thing and try to

help them maintain those units. CHUCK CASTO:


Borchardt is still on, but

Well,
--

I don't know if

Bill

MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK yesterday about get CASTO:

No, he's not. There was 3, some talk to in

trying to get, so

on Unit

trying

that hole bigger,

that we can push water

there from the outside. MALE PARTICIPANT: Right.

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322 1 2 3 4 2, the CHUCK CASTO: make that hole bigger, outside. I don't You know, yes, Unit 2. Unit

so they can push water from know how you make the hole

bigger, but they need to take the top of that building down. MALE PARTICIPANT: Well, we have some

ideas. FEMALE PARTICIPANT: What's the proximity

9
1 1 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

of Daiene to

--

MALE PARTICIPANT: like right up there. FEMALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: Daiene. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT:

It's

north.

Yes,

it's

Oh,

it's

close. Daiichi; that's

This is

Yes. -You know, as Jim has

pointed out, when you do your calculations nuclear engineering degree, know, what's the dose

to get your

you do your radiation, you for the single fuel

rate

assembly?

You know,

you get like a million R an hour.

And we've got how many fuel assemblies? BRUCE: Hey, Chuck? Yes? of the questions that we've and

CHUCK CASTO: BRUCE: had is One

we're getting some conflicting information, NEAL R.GROSS


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323
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2 up there, manipulate. anything. certainly, So, information Bruce, Bill may have something more up-to-date it than me. But

looked like there were a lot of attempts to try to And so, we've heard in

get power back to the site. one instance sites; others,

that they've got the power line back to that they're still CASTO: I've Yes, heard. working on it. we don't The have any

CHUCK on

that

only

thing,

I mean it's

always helpful to get power back. it's really just not going to

But my understanding is do any good. BRUCE: CHUCK switchgear damage. Yes.

CASTO: In

In

some

cases,

there's

other cases,

you can't get in

there to do anything anyhow. BRUCE: CHUCK You Okay. CASTO: can't You know, you breakers can't or

manipulate but not,

power is

helpful,

you know --

power will help up at the other one. MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: certainly, Because but Daiene. The power will help going to help at

Daiene. it's not

Daiichi. power if

there's

nothing you

could do with

you had it. MALE PARTICIPANT: NEAL R.GROSS


COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

How

can

we help

you

(202) 234-4433

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324 from this end? CHUCK CASTO: Well, you know, whatever we you know, I

can do to coordinate the federal response, close, tighter, would be helpful.

In other words,

don't know if

you guys can get a bridge with Admiral the DoD people, INPO, GE, you know,

Mueller and all

the biggest group, American group, together than can help.

that we can get put

KSX

MALE PARTICIPANT: to TMI, staff, just I was actually

When I helped respond in the licensee's but the

embedded

just the same thing, trying to put extra

but very different, people in helping

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325 licensee doing. 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 formal, with So, their recovery or whatever they were extra

I could see where having a lot of

hands would be helpful. FEMALE but is PARTICIPANT: it possible, Again, just not to be of case

because note in

(inaudible), they

to get some our

type of brief

question

official

(inaudible,

possibly

"position")?

6\111

13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 if you need Chuck? CHUCK CASTO:


US.

FEMALE here.

PARTICIPANT:

Okay.

One

second

MALE PARTICIPANT:

Anything else

for us,

No.

You know how to get us,

MALE PARTICIPANT:

Okay.

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326

CHUCK CASTO:

All right.

Thanks.

GROSS NEAL R.
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327

1
2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 is, the assembled, Headquarters

(CONFERENCE CALL INITIATED) MALE PARTICIPANT: Officer. This Chuck is Casto the is

Operations

coming up on the bridge. FEMALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: FEMALE the (inaudible, This is Chuck, Chuck. Hey, Chuck, you got are you there?

PARTICIPANT:

possibly "A Team"). Hey, I've got our team here I'll let Tim to the

CHUCK CASTO:

so we can all be on one page.

and John brief you on the latest with respect spent-fuel pools and whatever else.

I think one thing we just want to clarify on Unit 4 spent-fuel structural integrity pool, is it's likely dry, I guess but is it the

uncertain,

probably the best way to put it. will hold water or won't hold

We don't know if water, It's what

structural integrity exactly is. it's lost, but it's

not clear that will hold water,

not clear that it

either. And Bill Borchardt, if you can get that too. Okay. make sure that's he got information to

that would help,

FEMALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: So,

a clear understanding of the Unit 4 spent-fuel pool. NEAL R. GROSS


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328 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 1 13 1 1 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 So, of can at that, if tells tells us, you repeat this right. CHUCK CASTO: from METI and I think our best our best knowledge knowledge the Unit 4 MALE PARTICIPANT: that? I just want I'm sorry, Chuck, could

to make sure I've got

TEPCO,

us that

the structural unknown.

integrity of

spent-fuel pool is

MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: uncertain whether it MALE It

Okay. is likely dry, but it's

can hold water or not. They seem to think

PARTICIPANT:

they put water up there,

that they could keep

the fuel cool. CHUCK CASTO: least do You can at least spray, you

steam cooling maybe.

That's

where

they're headed on that. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: (Inaudible). I think, you know, I

don't know that we were clear with that with Bill this morning. So, I just want to make sure that he's Hey, Bill, I'm here, too.

CHUCK CASTO: you know, the

I certainly was unclear. information, and I

I was unaware apologize, and

additional

have got to communicate through the team.

I gave you

a bidding based on information I had yesterday. NEAL R.GROSS


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329 1 2 3 4 units 6 7 than much. PARTICIPANT: We don't know how much. have, Unit 4 Chuck? CHUCK CASTO: I guess Unit 3, you know, the other MALE PARTICIPANT: FEMALE PARTICIPANT: Okay. What about Unit 3,

the other units pool, but we

have water more don't know how

spent-fuel

8MALE
9

they gave us yesterday that looks like steam is by Unit 2 and Unit 3. CHUCK that hole. opened and it's it's one CASTO: Yes, Unit 2, they opened They coming out of above the fuel pool

1 1 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2

You've probably seen

the picture.

the hole in steaming. level,


--

the side of the reactor Well, least although one -it

building, that

appears

at

Richard,

what would

you say? fuel pool is

at least one level below where the spentis, which tells us that the whole building full of steam, and it's venting out

probably

through that hole. Unit atmosphere and 3, it's it looks like in it's open photo to the

steaming

this

heavily,

which probably mean it's Unit 3. Unit 4,

by now likely dried out for

the photos that we have, you know, NEAL R. GROSS

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330 it 2 3 confident 5 6 7 8 9 1C 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2 (phonetic). walls, sound, -it up looks like there has been some kind of an explosion there, obviously, And help may me and it there, out, looks like they guys have, it seem -there's to be steam fairly the

that be

there

that

actually

structurally-

although they don't know if MALE PARTICIPANT:

can hold water. The pictures but the spentSo,

Right.

show exterior walls fuel pool isn't

being demolished,

up against

the exterior walls.

they believe the more interior spent-fuel are in place and, if not,

pool walls

they would get significant And they

shine from around a walk around the plant. don't have that. CHUCK clarify that in CASTO: So, we probably

need

to

Bill's and the Chairman's mind. headed for -Tony,

And the team here is what about Conti? TONY We

What do we want to say about them? NAKANISHI: gave a little We visited briefing Basically, NISA. it Tariakmishu last night

after my visit to the Conti. of people there. some of in there, many folks,

was a lot

TEPC people were go through but,

And basically, the chronology

we were in a little

trying to

more detail,

general,

they were very open and forthcoming with

information.

NEAL R.GROSS
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

331 1

6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 1 1 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2 there, So, they're clearly, at least from my sharing experience information

really open about

and trying, you know,

to get help from us. Now they, is on Unit 4, I think

CHUCK CASTO: the access road is TONY they had also sort of

blocked, NAKANISHI:

that right, Tony? Right. regarding they And one thing they to do

mentioned was, what

Unit 4,

communicated

intended

regarding the debrises that have sort of accessway fuel pool. So, at 6:00 a.m. this for fire trucks to go and cool

impeded the the spent-

morning,

which

is

right about what -CHUCK CASTO: TONY An hour ago.


--

NAKANISHI:

an

hour

ago

here,

assuming that they preceded as planned,

they probably

have started the activity to remove some of the debris around the access. my understanding is And, then, if it goes as planned, to try to

they're going to start NEALR.GROSS

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332 inject water into the spent-fuel pool. 2 3 4 One thing they were looking for regarding that was sort of the NRC's there were any risk feedback on, that you know, should if be

issues

they

considering relative to that. with the ET and, 7 8 9 10 11 1 13 14 1 1 17 1 19 2 21 22 23 2 2 this is there, share communicating also,

And after consultation

the team here, we're basically this point the bottom line is

that at

get that pool cooled with water. And so, granted, there's risks associated

with dose and maybe potential criticality, or possibly even some hydrogen, basically, planned. depending on where they're headed,

the bottom line was they should proceed as So, I that was that point regarding Unit 4. believe today we're going to go back to So, So,

and there were some items that they wanted with us that we deferred it to today.

that's more details regarding the dose situation. we'll be heading over there at 10 o'clock, CHUCK CASTO: Anything -This is wait a Chuck. minute. Hold

I believe.

on.

Richard's got something. RICHARD DeVERCELLY: Richard DeVercelly


--

One thing I'll

add --

the strategy to get the

water into the spent-fuel pool I definitely believe is the right thing to do. One thing that we need to be

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333 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 1 12 13 1 15 16 17 18 19 2 2 22 23 24 25 could prepared amount there, of for and understand is, depending upon the

fuel exposure

that is

already occurring in

and the temperature of

the cladding that's on

that fuel,

we could end up with some fuel damage as a

result of the overquenching. MALE already damaged. RICHARD anticipate DeVERCELLY: Correct. So, we of PARTICIPANT: Which may have been

potential It's

releases,

elevations

radiation, it

contamination.

the right thing to do;

needs to be cooled. MALE PARTICIPANT: Right. I mean, right? talking like There as a right,

you're talking like balloon and burst, RICHARD DeVERCELLY:

I'm

throwing hot water on an iced-over windshield. would be fragmentation of the fuel cladding

result of overcooling. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: probably melted. reaction actual to I mean, if all Right. A lot of the fuel is

you got that exothermic that hydrogen gas, an

be generating

exothermic reaction produces

twice the heat of

decayed heat.

There's probably quite a bit of spentmelted some or -That's correct.

fuel pool that, whether it's MALE PARTICIPANT:

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334
1 MALE PARTICIPANT: -open, or whatever --

2 3 4 5 possibly,

MALE

PARTICIPANT:

Just

adding that more

fuel failure may result in MALE

the pool when we cool it. Right. (Inaudible,

PARTICIPANT:

"There would be definitely a big shock.") MALE PARTICIPANT: more And they've even evaluated with on it know, that than some and

whether risk? 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 sand or

that It's

water's more

effective

effective of

to put water with, on you

some

sort They've

solid

shielding?

guessed

that

analysis

arrived at that conclusion? MALE doing analysis. they can. I don't PARTICIPANT: I don't think they're

I think they're trying to do anything

My thought with the sand versus the water, know where you are in four days, a week,

whatever. there baking, in

All that heat is that sand, and it's

just going to stay down just going to keep

baking, baking,

you know. Yes. And where are you, a

MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT:

thousand degrees with the sand? MALE PARTICIPANT: With the sand, you may

help with shine, but you're not helping with cooling. MALE (inaudible) PARTICIPANT: You know, Yes. I mean, well,

months.

that would be a very

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335

1 2
3

insulated way down there -MALE PARTICIPANT: it says you cool, And I think that NUREG, molten

you use water on that core,

core, no matter what. MALE PARTICIPANT: E Even it's MALE PARTICIPANT: formed a crust -MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: Right. it gets some Right. It gets some cooling.

12
13

cooling. MALE PARTICIPANT: I didn't hear, Chuck,

what you said was the status of the Unit 1 spent-fuel 14 15 11 15 13 1lE idea. we pool. CHUCK CASTO: I don't think we have any

We haven't seen any steam and we don't really, know the status of Unit 1 spent-fuel pool.

don't

You know that, you know, 12 it. And it likely,

nobody's been adding water to

like most of the American ones, you know. Right. it would take So, a long

doesn't have automatic makeup, 2C 21 MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: But

time to drain just by natural evaporation. 22 2]


of Unit

that's

not urgent, 1.

but,

so far, we haven't seen any steam out


I'm sure they -I don't

24 know.

I don't know. pools

The spent-fuel

I'm used to,

they don't

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336 have an automatic makeup. 2 3 level, 5 6 7 8 9 I1 11 12 13 14 15 16 1 1 19 20 21 22 23 21 2 E M I this chatted gave lait anyhow
--

MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: it You up.

No,

that's right. an alarm on low

get

and you go fill MALE

PARTICIPANT:

They

don't

have

the

power anyway. MALE PARTICIPANT: makeup. CHUCK CASTO: Yes. So, for a GE plant The design has no auto

MALE

PARTICIPANT:

Right.

You

can

send

that signal all you want,

but there's nothing to do. Just Webber the one thought: and ET, list we

MALE PARTICIPANT: night Reactor with Mike Safety

and he of that And

the

Team

equipment that

the U.S.

would consider

sending.

they were engaged in I saw email from

Department of Defense, Joe Williams

et cetera. out a

sending

conceptual design.

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337 morning to ensure that this stuff can come in. were looking for an update on that. 3 4 5 6 TEPCO again equipment here. You guys got anything up that alley? MALE PARTICIPANT: 9 10 11 12 13 14 1 16 17 1 19 2 21 22 23 24 25 again. MALE PARTICIPANT: should have all the list. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: there, what's actually there. MALE PARTICIPANT: Well, we could shoot You sho uld have it. No, no I mean what's Well, y ou have it. You it. is No, all we have so far is, We also have a 10 o'clock meeting over at to talk about this design and where the So, we

and how long it's

going to take to get

four submersible pumps at Yokota Air Force Base and diesel-driven pump, and it's

a 500-gallon-per-minute ready to go.

That's all we've got so far. MALE PARTICIPANT: And that's all

(inaudible) information that said that it's out of Yokota. FEMALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: I'm just told it exists. So, Well,

on its way

(inaudible).

I haven't actually seen

MALE PARTICIPANT:

give me that list

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338
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 came in Morris. Earlier today, there was a request that you this. There was an email. too. Okay. Chuck, this is Scott Read it all, and we'll

forward you the email,

MALE PARTICIPANT: SCOTT MORRIS:

Hey,

with respect to Unit 2,

and they were looking facility might be

for ideas on how the walls of this removed


--

CHUCK CASTO: SCOTT spraying of water. CHUCK CASTO: SCOTT MORRIS: that? CHUCK CASTO: Webber to answer it, SCOTT look into it. MALE that. MORRIS:

Right. -to enable airdrop or

11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2 now, but I is

Right. Have you heard any more on

We had back. Okay.

(inaudible)

or Mike

I guess, MORRIS:

(Inaudible)

still

PARTICIPANT:

Okay.

We

are

doing

I just didn't know.

I stepped out for a while.

I didn't know whether you had heard any more. I mean, the as yes, it is is, other apparently that steaming heard pools

guess that,

concern these

I have

expressed

spent-fuel

NEAL R.GROSS
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

339
steam going 3 4 down to go and lose up at inventory, rad levels are only to

the site,

and the

opportunity

bring in

some of these temporary measures is

going to

be limited just because of the dose rates onsite. So, raising it is it it would would behoove behoove
--

the folks

reason to

I'm

perhaps

7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

consider making sure that the inventory in pools in to keep

spent-fuel

Unit I and 2 don't go below a certain point the rad levels at least stable. Because if

those go below, MALE whatsoever of

then rad levels are, you know -PARTICIPANT: what. They They're have just no way

telling

dumping

water whenever they have it

available. That's why we're trying you can't get in they're still

MALE PARTICIPANT: to get this spray system. there to do anything.

You know,

And,

you know,

just trying to clear a road to the site. MALE want the hole is PARTICIPANT: right now I Yes. The reason just they one

guess 'it's

blowout panel. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE system, they want hole, PARTICIPANT: Right. If there's a spray

a 5-meter-by-5-meter, so they can shoot this

or something spray system I mean

like that,

from a hundred meters away and hit the hole. NEALR.GROSS


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340 1 2 the winds So, out here are, you know, significant, too.

they need a large hole. Also, regardless of whether the they get the

spray 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 1 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2 21 22 23 24 2 do it got to

or not,

they don't want

reactor

building,

they don't want the hydrogen explosion in building. in Unit 2.

the reactor

They've got to vent that reactor building They wan to get that thing open, open,

open. We talked about, shooting there. MALE understand when the that. first of PARTICIPANT: Right. No, simply I a rocket-propelled threw grenade out an option or something to up

All I'm suggesting is these temporary

that,

measures

becomes

available,

maybe it

would be wise to

try to work on is level left they're

the two units where we think there still in still the pool, as evidence by the fact

that

steaming. CHUCK CASTO: all. get We're trying it stuff designed Yes. all. Well, we're going to we've yes,

First of all, and then,

and there, So,

we'll get the priorities. to get it all to it. Is

we're just going to try

there anything else? (phonetic): Yes, this is Bill

BILL RUAN

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341 1
2 3 4

Ruan (phonetic).
I haven't heard for some time a report of

the water status going into the cores And I was just wondering if

of these units.

you know of any change in

5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 1 1 17 18 19 20 2 22 23 24 2

that status. MALE yesterday, that PARTICIPANT: ago, What what they told us

about six hours good some So,

they told us is the core spray lines, some this, diesel-

they had using

injection beeman they

through (phonetic)

headers that,

whatever.

had to

fire

driven pumps hooked up to all four units, good core spray coolant for the past

and they had So,

48 hours.

they were very comfortable with that. Now Tony got a little bit different

information at a separate meeting. TONY Conti meeting. provided NAKANISHI: Right, and this is the

The indication there was, in terms of the level

I guess they indication. itself

some data

And the first was,

caveat

they had was

that level

you know, not of high confidence.

But that level

was basically indicating about half of the active fuel length was uncovered. MALE PARTICIPANT: TONY NAKANISHI: unit 2 is Which unit, Tony? This is 1 and 3. And 2, the

sort of maybe a couple of days behind NEAL R. GROSS


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342 1 2 other other you 4 ones because their (inaudible) was -so, the

thing they had mentioned was they are able to, know, even the though seawater was the core is has level maybe been is, half

uncovered, So,

injection that the

stable. more or

my understanding stable.

less, 7

MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT:

Okay. And the other Units 4,

9 1 11 12 13 1 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 2 24 2

5,

and 6? TONY NAKANISHI: Well, 4, 5, and 6, because they they

shouldn't were in

have

any fuel

in

the reactor

shutdown. MALE PARTICIPANT: TONY NAKANISHI: Okay. Now although Unit 4, one other

thing I found out was for, happened in months.

the actual shutdown So, that's a few fuel came out

November of last year. the

So,

freshest-discharged

around November. MALE PARTICIPANT:

TONY NAKANISHI: MALE RST's email PARTICIPANT: there?

Okay. So, We Bill, to what's shoot the this

address

want

email with this equipment available. MALE PARTICIPANT: NEAL R,GROSS


COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701

RST02,

is

that

a good

(202) 234-4433

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343 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 email
HOC@NRC.GOV.
MALE MALE

one?
MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE

01. Go ahead. 01. Okay.

PARTICIPANT:

MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE MALE MALE MALE MALE

PARTICIPANT: PARTICIPANT: PARTICIPANT: PARTICIPANT: PARTICIPANT:

01HOC.
RSTO01. --

No,

no,

no dot.

RST01HOC@NRC.GOV.

Got it.
RST01. --

MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE

PARTICIPANT:

No,

RST01,

01,

PARTICIPANT: PARTICIPANT: So, if

Oh,

okay.

And just cc my regular some screwup, I can

address.

there's

forward it

to them. MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: If Excellent. We're going to do

Okay.

some team work here.

you need anything,

you know

how to get a hold of us. BRUCE: Chuck? Yes, Chuck, this is Bruce.

I've had a couple of questions. CHUCK CASTO: BRUCE: Sure.

The liaison team was working with

a phone call between you guys and the DOE folks. NEAL R.GROSS
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344 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 a 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 support it. want me to. CHUCK CASTO: it? Well, we were trying to Well, yes. Yes, we'll bridge. It's -is. MALE PARTICIPANT: couldn't we tie into one of Well, I guess we could at? you guys can Taggart MARTIN TAGGART (phonetic): This is Martin

(phonetic) from the liaison team. we were trying to set up a conference call

with you guys and DOE, here, to try to

at the request of a DOE member this DOE flyover that's

coordinate

going to be occurring in about an hour and a half. I sent you an email to see whether or not (inaudible) that call or not. MALE PARTICIPANT: they were ready to go. MALE PARTICIPANT: Bill Cook can do that, Hold on. Where's Bill The DOE guy said that

right? I'm not sure where Bill

MALE PARTICIPANT:

the bridge lines into

the bridge? CHUCK CASTO: Yes, yes, we can use the

just who on our team is

going to support

that call. MALE PARTICIPANT: I can do that, if you

What time is

MARTIN TAGGART:

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345 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 time, 9 I1 11 12 13 14 1 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2 up there, (Inaudible) up, make it convenient for you guys. The email I sent was and, support the if it. so, what They that's

whether or not you could support it would be wanted the time that you could it before

the

time

to do

flyover

scheduled for -CHUCK CASTO: MARTIN 9:00 a.m. our time. -eight o'clock our

TAGGART:

I guess would be nine o'clock your time. CHUCK CASTO: Right. Yes, well, just hook have

hook them up,

and call Jim Trapp.

Get them,

them call Jim Trapp's cell phone. MARTIN TAGGART: CHUCK CASTO: Jim Trapp's cell phone?

Yes. Okay. And Alan, isn't Alan, DOE,

MARTIN TAGGART: CHUCK CASTO: the flyover guy? MALE

PARTICIPANT:

I'll

go

get

him.

this morning. CHUCK CASTO: Yes. They've got a night guy

MALE PARTICIPANT: and a day guy. CHUCK CASTO: yes, Yes.

Alan,

or whoever it So,

is

we've got DOE here as well.

they

can hook up Jim and the DOE guy here, can hook up and talk about the flyover. NEAL R. GROSS
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346 1 2 3 4 a lot. 6 7 8 CHUCK CASTO: BRUCE: Yes. MARTIN TAGGART: be Jim Trapp? CHUCK CASTO: Yes. Okay. All right. Thanks Okay. So, it's going to

MARTIN TAGGART:

A couple more. Any other questions, a couple more. an emergency, we The hear. Bruce? Daiene Any

CHUCK CASTO: BRUCE: Yes,

10

site was insight --

also

declared

11
12 13 1 1 16 1 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

CHUCK CASTO:

Yes,

Jim's working,

Jim's I going

think going to work on that, on there, what we need to do. MALE PARTICIPANT: any other insights right now? CHUCK CASTO: Daiene? No. MALE PARTICIPANT: Daiene site. MALE dose rates. MALE PARTICIPANT: PARTICIPANT:

figure out what's

Okay,

but we don't have

Do we

know anything

about

Dose rate to the site,

Yes,

they

have

some

Any recent readings on

the dose rates at the site or near the site? CHUCK CASTO: From the newspaper, we got

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347 60 MR at the gate. 2 3 information. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: the flyover 7 they were? CHUCK CASTO: 9 1 1
12

MALE PARTICIPANT:

At Daiichi,

we got some

Yes,

there's one --

Didn't we say 25 rem on know how high

that we had,

but we don't

Right.

Yes,

we don't know to put out any

how high, numbers

yes.

I don't think we want

because we don't have any that are accurate. but we don't know

They flew over and got 25 millirem,


--

13
14

MALE PARTICIPANT:
CHUCK CASTO: --

Twenty-five rem.
or 25 rem. We don't know

1 1 1 18 19 20
21

if

they were flying, you know, MALE PARTICIPANT:

10 feet or 10,000 feet. The Japanese did that

mission. CHUCK CASTO: BILL: have is it's


but

Yes. So, be the approach I want to dose rate

Okay. to

going
--

highly-elevated

readings,

22 23 24 25 It's high.

CHUCK CASTO:

That's

a good thing,

Bill.

BILL:

And just leave it Yes.

at that.

CHUCK CASTO:

The helicopters tried,

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348 1 2 3 4 want 6 7 drop 9 thing they over, so, tried to use the helicopter and and they had to abort that. fly some water --

They couldn't

our helicopter theory isn't MALE PARTICIPANT: to put some lead shields

working. Okay. Maybe we would

around their detectors

before they fly that. CHUCK CASTO: Yes. now So, isn't the helicopter an option.

probably

right

They've tried it. you know -MALE

Unless we think we can do better,

10
11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2 21 22 23 24 2

PARTICIPANT:

(Inaudible)

helicopter

(inaudible) dropping water. CHUCK CASTO: rates were too high. Anything guys have? BRUCE: doing, Out of all the Chuck? things you're Yes, it tried, and the dose

They abandoned that. else? What other questions you

what are your priorities,

You want to

get folks near the site. CHUCK CASTO: site. That's a priority. FEMALE Yes, And-Do you know the move people near the

PARTICIPANT:

actual locations of the EOCs for the site, CHUCK CASTO: heard that. We still I don't think

like how -we've ever

don't know. NEAL R. GROSS

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349 1 FEMALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: 3 working towards that. with METI and TEPCO is surely. 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 1 1 1 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Because, I mean, you could imagine one of our everybody, we're And so, moving But Okay. we're working. We're

The better relationship we have moving us that way slowly, but

with Tony's help and all and closer to better

the guys, and more

closer So,

information.

that's a good thing. priority is to keep us safe and

The

you know,

in what we do,

but --

MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: information is information.

Roger that. closer to real

And to get

a priority, you know,

the closer to the

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350 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 operators, our system, six units, is I if think even one of our operators even in

you've got four units like this, maybe for one operator this

six spent-fuel pools,

like the BP oil spill. I think it it

For one operator to run it, my

you know, opinion is, capability.

has exceeded the capability,

has exceeded their capability,

TEPCO's

12 13 1 1 1 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 with them, between that thought, MALE Chuck. PARTICIPANT: Are the You just triggered utilities a

other

Japanese

pitching in?

Or can you see any help from them? MALE PARTICIPANT: We were in a meeting

and they said they had resources available, to 300 TEPCO total for the Daiichi They have site, and

200

included

employees.

borrowed

some from other licensees and have some fleets there, and they have some of the civil defense forces that. CHUCK CASTO: Yes, that's why I think

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351 1 2 3 they're undermanned. help them put in the going, You know, system right they were asking us to but in we're there not and

together, now, going

interested doing that.

But one of the goals is, 6 7 8 9 1 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 try to get it know that equipment, somewhere, fit we it probably needs

if to

we can get the be mocked-up

you know,

to make sure all the connections Now, you know, if that

and all that stuff mocked-up. could do that at an American up and say,

installation, okay,

would be great, works. do it, And, right, in

mock it

this system

then,

carry it

to the site and actually But if we could get

the Japanese do it. resources

all that it going,

and mock the system up and get

that would be success. MALE PARTICIPANT: JOHN MONAGER: Okay. Will you guys have

something this morning within the next hour or less on the equipment that's available? MALE PARTICIPANT: I've seen sketches. I don't know, John. I

I've seen some thought

process or thought pieces. CHUCK CASTO: with is, Well, you guys work on that, Admiral Mueller, DoD,

whomever,

whomever

to try to figure out what the status INPO has offered resources as well. NEAL R.GROSS
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352

I
2 3

MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: moving that equipment


make sure that -I

Yes.

Try to get us the status of We'll try to

towards the site. 3

know that

5
6 7 8 9 1 11 12 13 1 1 1 17 18 19 2 2 22 23 2 2 was to get assemble you know, given is multi-dimensional accepting Government you know. it. So, you know, it's, obviously, a

issue here, TEPCO has

you know, asked

the Government for help, the

accepting it, But,

the whole, it

all

that dynamic,

meanwhile,

doesn't do any good if

we don't have any equipment. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: to kind of Yes. The advice we have been be positioned, in

lean forward,

case they ask. CHUCK CASTO: Right. So, if we could then,

those systems and get them over here, that would be helpful. MALE PARTICIPANT: And just to

confirm,

you want these systems physically where? CHUCK CASTO: them to the What we told them last night nearest American facility

possible,

whatever bases,

Air Force base and all that

kind of stuff on the island here of Japan. MALE PARTICIPANT: Okay.

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353 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2 gotten another they'll CHUCK CASTO: That would be the best case,

to have all that stuff here already. MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: meeting come You Okay. know, 10:00, we're and, going in

with them at And

hopefully, have a

around.

hopefully,

we'll

contact at the Department of Defense that we can pull them in on that meeting has got through to walk a teleconference from the

because

someone

through

strainer all the way up to the spray nozzle, you know, sizes, boom, dimensions, boom. Yes, you know, we've got a paper cartoon but someone has got to make interconnections, elbows, boom,

of the system and a list, sure everything fits

together perfectly. Yes, by the way, we've

MALE PARTICIPANT: various phone calls

from people

volunteering was COTS special

equipment, (phonetic)

including one utility, or CONEYS that (phonetic),

I think it had this

spray nozzle fuel pools.

they use to spray

down

the spent-

MALE PARTICIPANT:

What's that called? Does anybody --

We

asked for four of those last night. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: NEAL R.GROSS

Monitors. Monitors, monitor

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354 nozzles. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE than that, though. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: this has equipment, got though, it's all Yes. But, all fits I mean, but with all someone So, the PARTICIPANT: Yes. This sounds different

great,

to make sure it

together. have got

people who know the details together. MALE PARTICIPANT:

of this

to get

Okay,

but,

mean,

should we send this piece of equipment? MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: CONEYS? Yes, CONEYS, yes. I mean I we're

I don't know.

think we've got to know whether the --

you know,

asking for about two to three miles of piping. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: eight diesel-driven pumps. got to -MALE PARTICIPANT: Yes, I wouldn't worry Okay. You know, I we asked for think they've

You know,

too much about the nozzle. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: Okay. Yes. Okay. I got it.

We've got bigger

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355 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2
hear
--

pieces to see if

we can get first. Okay. It Got it.

MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: if we can't get miles of pipe. MALE PARTICIPANT: And readily these truck. all this

doesn't do any good

Okay. is

Got it. supposed these trailer to be

stuff For

transportable. they've got

example, be on a

pumps, or a

diesel,

to

They drive them up, You know, the

connect it, doses are

and take off. so high, they

can't be playing around with this. MALE with all this. Admiral Mueller. Okay. TRISH Holohan. Apparently, (inaudible). And you said you HOLOHAN: Yes, this is Trish PARTICIPANT: You know, and, And DoD then, can help us

they'll talk to

He's hot and ready to go.

were going to talk to them about doses this morning. Is that dose information you're trying to get from

them? CHUCK CASTO: TRISH HOLOHAN: They're doing flyovers, Okay. DOE.

You're waiting to

CHUCK

CASTO:

DOE

FERMAC

is

doing

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COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

356 1 2 3 4 flyovers. TRISH HOLOHAN: CHUCK CASTO: from Tokyo up to the site. HOLOHAN: CHUCK CASTO: other site, too, Okay. We need to talk about the Okay. They're going to fly over

5TRISH 6 7

when you get done. And they're sure that they

8
9 1 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2C
21

TRISH HOLOHAN: can fly over that site? CHUCK CASTO:

But not going up there,

but

we need to find out the status of it. MALE PARTICIPANT: TRISH HOLOHAN: fly over the site? CHUCK CASTO: working on now. The FERMAC is Yes, that's what Jim Trapp's Okay. Will do.

They're sure that they can

They're going to fly from Tokyo up.

going to fly from Tokyo up to the site. TRISH HOLOHAN: Okay. And, then, they're going to

CHUCK CASTO: download that information.


here. They can't -or

They actually have to come


somewhere -they can't pump

22 23 24 25

it

through

from the aircraft

or something.

don't

understand it, the laptop, they have

but whenever they get it or whatever it is,

downloaded off the data, they

and assess to us

promised

to get it

as soon as

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357 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 1 1 17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 though?

can. TRISH HOLOHAN: Okay. And AREVA has those

offered up boron and monitors. over. CHUCK CASTO: Okay. Is

They're flying

That's great.

Okay.

MALE PARTICIPANT: available for dose rates? remote sites. TRISH HOLOHAN: monitoring and

there any field data

I know that there has been some fixed monitoring

there's

Well,

we

have

the

information from the JAIF. that organization? Is it

Now are you familiar with similar to the HPS? It's I the executive -think I understand

MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT:

what you're talking about. You know,

(Inaudible).

we received several reports from

IAEA with the six monitoring positions on the leeward


side of the reactor. That's not what you're -is

that what you're talking about? MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: Yes. Yes, I haven't seen any

additional reports over the last 24 hours. TRISH HOLOHAN:


Because we got
--

That

was

from

the

IAEA,

25

MALE

PARTICIPANT: NEALR.GROSS

Well,

the

original

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358 1 2 3 report that I saw was from the IAEA. Which one are

you talking about? TRISH JAIF, HOLOHAN: I was talking about the

4
5 6 7 8

the Japanese Atomic -MALE PARTICIPANT: TRISH HOLOHAN: -Industrial Forum? yes, Yes. that Industrial Forum.

MALE PARTICIPANT: TRISH HOLOHAN: was equivalent So,

And I didn't know if

9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

to the Health Physics Society or what.

we don't know whether or not that's valid data. MALE PARTICIPANT: Well, we're here on the let you know. Okay?

ground.

If

we

hear

something,

we'll

We'll collect data and get it TRISH HOLOHAN:

to you. Okay. Great.

MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: as we know something. Okay.

Thanks.

We'll call in as soon trying to call in

I've been

every hour,

you know, once an hour. MALE PARTICIPANT: All right, Chuck.

Thanks.

We'll be here. (Laughter.) CHUCK CASTO: Yes, I know. You guys have

been there forever. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: Yes, but


--

G02HOO@NRC.GOV,

is

that

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359

I 2
3 4 5

where to get the data if

I find it? HOO.HOC@NRC.GOV. Thank you. We'll talk to you in

MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: an hour or so. MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: Okay.

E
7 8 9

Okay.

Thanks again. Thank you.

All right.

10

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2C 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS
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360

I
2 3 Headquarters

(CONFERENCE CALL INITIATED) MALE PARTICIPANT: This is the

Operations Officer adding Chuck Casto to

the ET bridge. BRUCE: Go ahead, Chuck. Hey, Bruce, Chuck.

CHUCK CASTO: 7 8 9 1 1 12 13 14 1 16 17 18 19 20 2 22 23 2 25

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361
1

BILL: line.

I've got Bechtel

(phonetic)

on the

2
3

We're connecting

them up with USAID,


--

and we're

going to hook these two groups together CHUCK CASTO: BILL: Yes? Hey, Bill?

6 4 7 5

1 11 12 10 13 1 1
16

17

18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Mueller is BILL: CHUCK pissed. No, I understand. I said we Thank you. talked to DoD.

CASTO:

He's got pumps and he wants to get

them up there.

He's got real-live equipment at an air

NEAL R.GROSS
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

362

base here in Japan. Okay?


So, you guys get on the phone with DoD and

figure out where this equipment is.


BILL: Okay.

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363 1 2 Ops Officer. on the bridge. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE please. PARTICIPANT: Hello? Good evening. Hold for Buchanan, (CONFERENCE CALL INITIATED) MALE PARTICIPANT: This is Headquarters

Josh Batkin with the Chairman coming up

MALE PARTICIPANT: BRUCE: (phonetic) on the ET. MALE PARTICIPANT: Yes, sir,

Hello? this is Bruce Boger

Okay. Hello?

Thanks.

13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 20 track. know?

MALE PARTICIPANT: BRUCE: Yes, sir.

MALE PARTICIPANT: BRUCE: Just fine.

How are you? Bruce Boger. How are you, Bruce? Is

MALE PARTICIPANT: this your f irst shift? It is

BRUCE:

my first

shift.

How did you

MALE

PARTICIPANT:

I've

been

keeping

(Laughter.) BRUCE: What can we do for you? Can you just give me

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO:

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364 1 2 3 4 kind of a basic rundown? Well, let me run through

what I think the current status is. Units 1, 2, to do seawater injection. BRUCE: Affirmative. I'm sorry? and 3 reactors are continuing

6 7 8 9 1 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 believe it No. hear that. spent-fuel inventory.

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: BRUCE:

That's affirmative. Okay. Unit No. loss 3, of

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: pool has a crack and

possible

BRUCE:

We believe that to be true still. I'm sorry, I didn't

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO:

BRUCE:

Yes,

sir. Okay. Correct.

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: BRUCE: Correct.

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO:

And spent-fuel pool

4 has no water and possible zirc fire? BRUCE: We know that, we feel that it in has

no water and the structural integrity is NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: Okay.

question. And likely

zirc interaction or not? BRUCE: We don't know that. Okay. Okay. So, we

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO:

has no water and may not have structural NEAL R.GROSS


COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., NW.

365 1 2 integrity, but that's not confirmed? BRUCE: NRC four points Yes. Okay. earlier. There I were don't

3
4

CHAIRMAN JACZKO: were circulated

that

5
6 7

know if

you're familiar with those. BILL: Well, I'm here, Chairman. This is

Bill.

I can tell

them what they are. Okay. I mean, the

8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 yes, it's still right? bottom line,

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: is

there any change to our thinking about

those four points at this point? MALE PARTICIPANT: valid, but we had Well, I think No. removed No. 4 is 4,

previously

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: still there, but we

Well, still

yes.

I mean, it's

believe

valid? MALE PARTICIPANT: a reasonable basis for No. 4. Okay. Okay. Okay. Good. We still think there's

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: Thank you. That's what I needed. BILL: on the phone? NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: BILL: aligned,

20
21 22 23 24 2

Can I brief one thing while you're

Yes,

please.

I just want to make sure that we're too. I was

and I'm talking to the team now,

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366 just had another conversation with Chuck Casto. 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i0 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2 from Naval fixes. that. because The I think the Ops Center No. 1 priority now

ought to be facilitating the movement of materials. SCOTT MORRIS: BILL: I have an update.

The support thing, right? Yes. Okay. status is second to to

MALE PARTICIPANT:

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: BILL: No. 1 got I mean (Inaudible) thing the is

being

able

deliver to the

we've

Ambassador a lot

talking of

Government. going on,

there's

interactions

and we can't fall flat and say -NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: BILL: And we Okay. need theoretical

don't

We need -NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: SCOTT MORRIS: And Yes. I can offer you an

update on that, So, So,

if

you would like. Scott Morris.

this is

I was on the phone with an individual out for That of Yakuza, Japan, who had

Reactors request

received pumps

the

the

various

diesel-driven processed the which

and

hoses.

individual

request,

and equipment was delivered to Yokota, another military facility. NEAL R.GROSS
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

I guess is

As of about six

367 hours 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 1 15 16 17 18 19 2 21 22 23 24 2 you, very, interrupt sketchy. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: you, Okay. I'm sorry to too ago, according to this individual, on a the TEPCO truck

actually

picked up the away.

equipment

flatbed

and drove it

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: SCOTT couple of things, or if MORRIS: though. What

Okay. I know, there's a

What we don't know is received at clear. Okay.

when

the material

actually

the site or

some staging area.

That part isn't

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: SCOTT MORRIS:

Apparently,

there were no

Government officials escorting or with that particular TEPCO pickup. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: SCOTT MORRIS: So, Okay. our Okay. information is

but at this point that's probably

detailed for what I need to know at this pint. SCOTT Chairman, it's MORRIS: the Well, I'm offering is it to

because

Ambassador

obviously

urgent when it

comes to wanting to know the So, I wanted to best equip

status of this equipment. you with that information.

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: SCOTT MORRIS:

Okay.

The only other thing I was

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368 1 2 3 going to add is or picked up, such that the equipment that was delivered, I should say, and did not include not like even

seawater nozzles.

strainers

potentially

5 6 7 8 9 1 11 12 13 1 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 coordination your still We're

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: SCOTT MORRIS: working with Bechtel, So,

Okay. we're on the phone. a

who

has

engineered

solution on how to rig all this stuff up and is up with ways to get all the pieces

coming

and parts so that

they all arrive at the same place and can be mocked up and put in use. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: SCOTT MORRIS: But Okay. that last bit, we're

working on facilitating. NRC CHAIRMAN was into JACZKO: we put Okay. basically and So, all Bill, our the

recommendation right now

efforts

mobilizing

getting

equipment? BILL: issue. Yes, it's really an interagency

I mean I

don't think we have to clear that it's

put all our efforts, the No. 1 priority.

but we make it

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: BILL: monitor plant status, We still

I concur. people that can team

have

but I think the management NEAL R. GROSS

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369 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R.GROSS


COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

needs

to be. focused on making sure that

facilitation

happens. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: I'm going to jump out. do a quick meeting here and, touch a little then, I concur. I've got to go to I'll probably be in

bit later this evening. But, again, bottom line: our four points support

we still them?

are comfortable with,

that we still

MALE PARTICIPANT: NRC CHAIRMAN Appreciate it, everybody.

Yes. Okay. Thank you.

JACZKO:

MALE PARTICIPANT: NRC CHAIRMAN soon. Bye. MALE PARTICIPANT:

Yes,

sir. Il l talk to you

JACZKO:

Bye.

370 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Headquarters (CONFERENCE CALL INITIATED) MALE PARTICIPANT: Officer. This is the

Operations

The Commissioners' We're ready

assistance briefing bridge is to go when you are. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: BRUCE This is BOGER: All

populated.

Okay. We're ready. right. Good evening.


--

Bruce Boger.

I've got the duty tonight One minute, John, can

1 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Officer. Officer. the roster

MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: so we

please.

go ahead and do sure we have

playback,

make

everyone. RECORDED VOICE: There are currently 23

participants in your conference. are in the conference: MALE PARTICIPANT:

The following people

Headquarters

Ops

MALE PARTICIPANT: MIKE SCHULTZ:

Yes, Mike

sir? Schultz, NMSS Duty

MIKE

FRANOVICH:

Mike

Franovich,

Commissioner Ostendorff's office. (Inaudible). N.B. BATES (phonetic): N.B. Bates

NEAL R.GROSS
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(202) 234-4433

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371 1 2 (phonetic), (inaudible). JOHN LUBINSKI: MICHAEL John Lubinski, Michael NRR. Marshall,

3
4 5 6 7 8 9 10 1 12 13 14 15

MARSHALL:

Chairman Jaczko's office. DON: Don (inaudible), Bill Chairman's office. Commissioner

BILL WATERS: Magwood's office. REBECCA Duty Officer. BEN: NEASE:

Watters,

Rebecca

Nease,

Region

Ben Reamer

(phonetic),

Region 3 RDO. OGC.

BRIAN HARRIS: SCOTT MOORE: AMY:

Brian Harris, Scott Moore,

FSME. Region 3. FSME.

Amy Peterson (phonetic),

CHARLES MILLER: RON JACKSON:

Charles Miller, Ron Jackson,

Region 1 Duty

12
1 18 19 2C 21 22 23 21 2

Officer.
(Inaudible). ANNETTE VIETTI-COOK: Office of the Secretary. LINDA HOWELL: ROBERT LEWIS: Linda Howell, Robert Lewis, Region 4. FSME. Office Annette Vietti-Cook,

TRIP ROTHSCHILD: of the General Counsel. BEN HART SECY (phonetic).

Trip Rothschild,

(phonetic):

Ben Hart (phonetic),

NEAL R.GROSS
(202) 234-4433
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372 1 2 3 complete. BRUCE BOGER: all. 7 8 14 9 12 16 1 12 13 14 1 This is Bruce Boger. All right. Good evening, TED CASSELMAN (phonetic): Ted Casselman,

(phonetic) Commissioner Svinicki's office. RECORDED VOICE: Roster playback is

I've got the ET Director's

position this evening. I'm going status of activities in With things are about afternoon. injected described unknown. For Unit 2, place. reduce seawater injection is taking and as The to give a brief Japan. to Unit 1, I will say that this being update on the

respect

the same as Unit 1 still

they were has cooling.

earlier

seawater

reported

stable

Containment pool level is

functional.

Spent-fuel

16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
is containment

Secondary containment and they cut a hole to the likelihood of hydrogen gas buildup.

Primary containment Unit 3,

intact. seawater being injected. functional. Primary

described as

Spent-fuel pool

possibly drained.

Some evidence of steam. spent-fuel pool appears to be, doubt.

For Unit 4,

likely dry with the structural integrity in Unit 5, spent-fuel pool is NEAL R. GROSS
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

reported to be

373 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 i 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 like little hazards to get been in Their direction direction reported to heating up. They have AC power available from a

diesel generator. The same for Unit 6. be heating up, but The spent fuel pool they have AC power

available through a diesel generator. And the general is currently talking points: the west the wind with that at

from

expected

to continue until

the weekend, may change.

which time a front moves through and it

People continue to provide support.

We've

contact with Chuck Casto and the team there. priorities flowing. are to They've continue had some to get the

information with

interactions that they're

the Japanese

authorities

and feel

getting better information at this time. They would to acknowledge the site, that they would just a

closer

so perhaps

closer information, that might present

but they're mindful of the to themselves within the

radiation levels to get to the site EOC. They would acknowledge, also, that the

licensee or TEPCO is

somewhat overwhelmed.

People had

left the site earlier, but they have been supplemented with additional people now. Our understanding is they

had about 50 before and maybe up to about 100 now. NEAL R.GROSS
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374 1 2 3 4 comment. MIKE FRANOVICH: BRUCE BOGER: 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 1 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 on that. Our priority now, frankly, has shifted Unit 2. Hey, Bruce? Can I answer any questions for you? Bill Ruan (phonetic) has an additional

Yes? This is Mike Franovich.

MIKE FRANOVICH:

I've got a couple of questions for you, On unit status, the containment intact. reports now, TEPCO

actually. that we have several

Unit 2 says

And I've seen that in

but I thought I had heard last night that that they had a breach in the toris

verified itself

(phonetic) They went

from back a couple of days earlier. that. That's what

back and had verified

was being reported out of NISA. And so, I'm wondering about the status on integrity

Have we verified that containment

with the folks on the ground? BRUCE BOGER: Don't believe so. We'll get back to you

MALE PARTICIPANT:

from doing status to getting equipment to Fukushima. MIKE FRANOVICH: fully appreciate that. I recognize that, and I

I was in

there earlier today, there.

and I realize what's going on in NEAL R.GROSS

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375 1 2 3 4 But I do want to go down this list sure we're getting what seems to be a dated information. I want to make little it's to make bit of still

sure

correct or still

current. At

On Unit 3, we talked about some doses. the site post, 7 8 9 1 11 12 13 14 15 1 1 18 19 20 2 22 23 2 25 believe the 60 MR per hour, is that still The

current? current

FEMALE

PARTICIPANT:

information that we have been able to get and verify, yes. MIKE FRANOVICH: Okay. Again, at the NISA

press conference last night or yesterday morning their time, they were talking about a spike which is but that going

much higher than that,

they had been coming

down ever since that spike, based on Unit 3 events the previous day. And I understand the status on Unit 4. For Unit 5, reactor is there's a note in here that we defueled. And there was an

earlier report that led me to believe that the reactor was not totally defueled, from NISA that meter. So, defueled on 5? FEMALE PARTICIPANT: NEAL R.GROSS
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701

and another report yesterday

the water had dropped about a half a

is

this correct,

that

the reactor

is

Somebody from the RST

(202) 234-4433

www.nealrgross.oom

376

I
2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

is verifying that. MIKE FRANOVICH: And, thing, and, Bill, I'll Okay.

why don't you go through your come back and ask my other

then,

questions? BILL: key here is Okay. As everybody here knows, the

to supply the pumping system that was --

we had kind of a cartoon about what that system looks like. The steps, of course, is we have to

finalize the list, get the suppliers to take all the equipment, collect it in a central location, make sure do a pre-assembly of

we've got the engineering done, the equipment, and operate it. to accomplish. Right now, we know then move it So,

to the site, assembly it,

those are the steps that we have

that

the

equipment left an

left, that some equipment,


air base right now
---

namely,

five pumps,

and

the name of the air base

escapes me

left the air base about six o'clock this

morning local time.

It's

196 miles to Fukushima. I guess it's

So,

they've been on the road.

the Defense It So, is the

Forces of Japan are delivering that equipment. not the complete list. valves, the strainers, It's just the pumps.

those things are not part of

NEAL R.GROSS
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

377
1 2 3 4 Reactors, In fact, can this list. We who is have been us in contact with this this, so Naval effort. see if we can

helping

coordinate

they're going to try to locate locate where this truck is,

they 6 7

actually locate the equipment. Meanwhile, Company has is taken doing our we have the Bechtel Engineering drawing, taken the work equipment and the So,

9 10 11 12 13 14 15 1 17 18 19 2 21 22 23 24 25

list

and

the

engineering

procurement work to get this stuff to the site. we're working with them to get that now, working on this project, So, right now. chaotic, done. The key policy issue is that remains I So, and

they're

this problem, as we speak.

that's kind of where everything stands what maybe an hour ago was a little

think we've got a plan on how to get this

is,

passed on from John Monager,

that the Japanese have

asked for installers and operators for this equipment. Now that in, would be installers and operators of

equipment

you know,

a radiation area and possibly So, we don't have anybody install and operate

even a high radiation area. identified this system. So, right now

that would

that's a problem that we

face

as we

NEAL R.GROSS
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378 1 2 speak. You know, do we get the military? Do we ask

our military to do it? the Japanese and tell and you operate it."? worked out.

Can we go back to TEPCO and to them, These "We'll install things still the system need to be something

3
4

5
6 7

And I would argue that that's the near-term.

we need to work out in

MALE PARTICIPANT: BILL: in So,

Thank you, Bill.

8 9
10 11 12 13 14 1 1 17 18 .19 2 21 22 23 24 2 folks,

any help that you can give me

identifying the right people to talk to to get this

problem resolved would be great. MALE PARTICIPANT: BILL: somebody. So, You maybe know, Okay. the government we need to liaison get this

problem resolved. So, MALE anything to add? There is some that's kind of where we sit. PARTICIPANT: Okay. So, Bruce,

FEMALE PARTICIPANT:

Yes, We also had a

K>

call from the U.S. (phonetic) EOC

Postal Service. information

We gave them CBC's

NEAL R.GROSS
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379

2 3 4

And so, guidance. contact

they wanted to know if We gave them the

there was any federal State information to

the State and get somebody out

there quickly

5
6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 2 2 calls NARAC, So, that information. Also, not as we're getting information like to, from we gave them

rapidly as we would

because,

apparently, they

we sent them information this morning, and the emails. So, we resent again this

deleted

afternoon.

So,

we are hoping to get that information

as soon as we can. Also, there's an aerial flyover by DOE

over the sight at nine o'clock, yes. MALE PARTICIPANT:

eight o'clock tonight,

Eight o'clock tonight,

nine o'clock tomorrow their time. FEMALE PARTICIPANT: And But we are still that's all Local time, yes. we have.

the information

waiting to hear back from NARAC. Thanks, (inaudible).

MALE PARTICIPANT: Mark, MARK: and questions

anything from (inaudible)? No, we're just getting the press a lot of

regarding

release

that

NEAL R. GROSS
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380

1
2 3 4

went out.
FEMALE PARTICIPANT: Yes, we developed

Q&As for that press release. (Inaudible.) FEMALE (inaudible, possibly, MALE (inaudible). BRUCE BOGER: Go ahead, Mike. that PARTICIPANT: "finish them"). Bruce, Mike Yes, we did

7 8 9 1 11 12 13 1 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

PARTICIPANT:

MIKE FRANOVICH:

Those calculations

are posted that are linked to a recent statement don't seem to make any sense because the dose from a four-

unit reactor release on the spreadsheet or on the PDF file that is attached release is less than any it than from those of indication a of

one-reactor differences in reactor release.

without So,

assumptions.. is

looks like a onea four-reactor

release So, it

greater

doesn't seem to make any sense. PARTICIPANT: Well, we did the and

FEMALE

four-reactor release assuming certain assumptions, I don't have the press release with me. on the press release, the assumptions

But we put it that we made.

And one was run on the 15th. Do you have the press release? MALE PARTICIPANT: NEAL R.GROSS
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701

don't

have

the

(202) 234-4433

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381 1 (inaudible). FEMALE PARTICIPANT: Okay. One was done We did the knowing the

2 3

on the 15th and one was done on the 16th. one-reactor release on the 15th,

assumptions that we had then, 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 1 16 17 18 19 2 2 22 23 24 2 questions, it is and get it. MIKE FRANOVICH:
that we did on the 16th

and the reactor release


-we ran it as a

was with

four-reactor, reactors,

assumed

one

reactor

in

the

four

and then,

the additional reactor didn't add

anything to it. So, if you need more information, I can go

I think my point is

that

confusing to the public because it release is

comes across

as a one-reactor reactor release.

more severe than a four-

FEMALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT:

Okay. We're getting a lot of That's the

people asking for the raw data.

kind of questions that we're getting. FEMALE PARTICIPANT: Yes, they were based four-

on system condition estimates for a hypothetical reactor release, but we took into it

the assumptions

that not all reactors are releasing at the same time. So, I think we have the answers and the Q&As that

clarify that. NEAL R. GROSS


COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

382 1 MALE PARTICIPANT: Other questions? 3 again. I want Bill was just At to go back for a minute to what on MIKE FRANOVICH: This is Mike Franovich Thanks, Trish.

(inaudible, one time,

possibly there was

"saying")

strategies. about,

some discussion

instead of water,

using sand for the two units Is that stillpart of

that appear to have dry pools. 1 1i 12 13 14 15 1


1

the approach? MALE PARTICIPANT: discussion whether or not I know it's they add sand still or under water. if So

There's pros and cons of both. you put that, sand on it, that it

There's a concern, will still be hot.

the water would be a good thing to keep going, down.


do you know
--

just to cool it

Bill,

18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 is, team, okay,

BILL:

The onsite team,

the NRC's onsite

has recommended it's

water that should go

on these spent-fuel pools. MIKE FRANOVICH: for Chuck Casto, with the Okay. My next question I know this Tokyo

where are they embedded? folks, or they Is were

they're morning,

TEPCO

but where is

that located?

that in

or closer in toward the site? NEAL R. GROSS


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383

1
2 3 still 5 6 7 8 9 1i 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
25

MALE still in Tokyo. MIKE

PARTICIPANT:

Right

now,

they're

FRANOVICH:

Tokyo?

Okay.

And we

have Jim and Tony with NISA? MALE PARTICIPANT: This morning -they

were together phone call, Tony were.

with us just a little

while ago on the where Jim and

but that's where they were,

MIKE FRANOVICH: here, its

And,

then,

the last item had increased these worse

yesterday the Japanese Government limit on I worker dose here for

conditions. R. of

had heard they had bumped it

up to 25 And part we're that about

Are they considering raising that again? this is driven with or is by the Are some strategies we more

that to

discussing limitation

them. there

working

discussion

perhaps going beyond that limit? MALE PARTICIPANT: not on the site, right? FEMALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: them embedded with TEPCO is statement.
embedded,

Well,

the NRC staff is the site, as we

has not approached

speak,

Right. And by the way, to call

probably not an accurate talking


clarify

They

have

been
let's

to

TEPCO.

But
my

my picture --

terms here --

NEAL R. GROSS
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(202) 234-4433

384 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 picture of put them in "embedded" means I put one or two people, the middle that of the organization So, and is I

they not

work as part of what's happening.

organization.

that

MIKE FRANOVICH: I'm talking about isn't Yes, they're, I guess,

Okay.

The dose part that I appreciate that.


--

so much --

consulting each other Yes. -might be

MALE PARTICIPANT: MIKE FRANOVICH:

more

gracious way to characterize it.

16
17 18 19

KS>

20
21 22 23 24 25 FEMALE PARTICIPANT: Yes.

NEAL R.GROSS
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

385

MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT:

Right. As a matter of fact,

NEAL R. GROSS
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

386 FEMALE 2 3 PARTICIPANT: With the Chairman.

We did that earlier tonight. MIKE FRANOVICH: You did? Yes. Okay, I'll stop Okay.

FEMALE PARTICIPANT: 5 now. 7 TRISH additional just got in HOLOHAN: MIKE FRANOVICH:

Got it.

We

just

got

in

the we

8
9 1 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 1 19 2 21 22 23 2 2

information --

this is

Trish Holohan --

the additional information from NARAC that So, we're analyzing it now. 50

we've requested.

We had asked miles,

them to do a run beyond

and we also requested them to see if that involved projections to

they were the West

doing any runs

Coast of the U.S. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: Other questions? This is (inaudible), I heard

and I have a couple of things. on the news

One of them is

that TEPCO said that they were very near

to establishing another power line into the facility. Do you have any information on that? MALE PARTICIPANT: We've heard that also. And that,

We asked Chuck that specifically earlier today. they but don't have any additional skeptical information whether on

they were somewhat

that would,

how much that would help,

because of the condition of

NEAL R.GROSS
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387 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2 like question is, attack some of the breakers and things like that that might

have to be operated manually, to them is quite unknown. So,

and the ability to get

he was leaning more toward the plan of and that's figure out

that has been outlined,

another way to get water in MALE we

there. Okay. a report Now on my the next last

PARTICIPANT: had received

conference call that there had been five lethal doses. Do we have any information on possible radiation

fatalities? MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: (No response.) MALE to do is call. that So, morning PARTICIPANT: Okay. time What for have I would None in Okay, Okay. Other questions? here.

thanks.

suggest It

a different out at to

tomorrow several in the call eight 7:30

morning's phone

turns up

that we eight

calls

line

o'clock a

morning. tomorrow o'clock

I'm

going

propose stick please

7:30 the at

and,

then, So,

with

tomorrow night.

join us

tomorrow morning. MALE PARTICIPANT: Works for me.

NEAL R.GROSS
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388 1 2 3 4 MALE PARTICIPANT: BRUCE BOGER: Okay. Okay. Thanks, Thank you, all. Bruce.

MALE PARTICIPANT: BRUCE BOGER:

You're welcome.

5 6
7 8
19

iC 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2C 21 22 23 24 2E

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389 1 2 3 Headquarters (CONFERENCE CALL INITIATED) MALE PARTICIPANT: Officer. Th. is Joh:n is Monager the is

Operations

coming up on the bridge. FEMALE PARTICIPANT: 6 7 8 4 9 JOHN MONAGER: Hey, We're r eady. is this t Iarty?

FEMALE PARTICIPANT: BRUCE (inaudible). JOHN MONAGER; BRUCE BOGER: JOHN MONAGER: a heads-up, now are over Hey, BOGER:

No. This is Bru ce and

5
1 1 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23

how you doing?

(Inaudible). We wanted to give you guys Chuck and Tony the equivalent Room. They

no action, but a heads-up. at the Conti, which is

down of

here

the White

House

Situation

asked them to come down,

such that they could show us And what they that the spentthe

a video of the Unit 4 spent-fuel pool. are going to show us, fuel pool has water, we believe, has is

had water,

potentially

entire time. We think the reason they're doing that is because or maybe I guess of maybe statements the Chairman's hearing the NRC has made yesterday

testimony

24 25

saying that Unit 4 the spent-fuel pool was dry. So, Chuck hasn't seen the video yet, but

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390 1 2 3 4 we wanted to give you guys a heads-up in case there is

any clarifications or corrections we need to do. Did that make sense? MALE PARTICIPANT:

6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 1 1 1 18 19 2 21 22 23 24 25 run it here -perspective.

JOHN MONAGER:

Right,

right. it is good news.

MALE PARTICIPANT: JOHN MONAGER: there's water in there.

Well,

I mean it's

good news that

MALE PARTICIPANT:

That's all right.

Bad

JOHN MONAGER:

Yes.

MALE PARTICIPANT:

JOHN MONAGER: Well, down now; but I

Right,

right. and we've got to down back has been Unit 1

the other thing -well,

we've got to run it the status that

believe

reported for the past, you know, 24-48 hours is and 2, 4, the spent-fuel pools are boiling;

Units 3 and zirc/water

the spent-fuel you know, So,

pools are going through

reaction,

essentially, at the bottom.

I'm not sure where we got that summary I know we were under the belief wall had been blown out, but

for the four units. that, Unit 4, the

NEAL R.GROSS
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391 1 2 3 John. 5 McIntyre. 7 8 9 1 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 2 2 is yet, but if now. video? JOHN MONAGER: Chuck is down at the Conti anytime now. What time are you all going to see that DAVE MCINTYRE: John, this is Dave regardless of that, someone else would have had to

tell us about Units 1, 2,

and 3. A couple of questions,

MALE PARTICIPANT:

He should be seeing it,

you know,

I would imagine we would hear back from him within the hour. DAVE McINTYRE: JOHN MONAGER: MALE Okay, Okay. John, there were some thank you.

PARTICIPANT:

other questions related to whether you guys are still trying to get to the site EOC. JOHN MONAGER: morning with NISA, and NISA, which to Yes, is there's a meeting this like the Japanese request NRC, the

we're

going

ask,

broach,

notion of being embedded in

the EOC. Okay. is yet. And I don't know

MALE PARTICIPANT: you've figured out where it JOHN MONAGER: we've been No.

We don't know where it or it's one of our

asking,

NEALR. GROSS
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

392 things to be asked. The other meeting we're which is having this

morning at 10 o'clock our time, o'clock your guys' time, I

probably nine with Steve

just

chatted

Bloom about it.

We're going to be meeting with TEPCO and I'm minimum,

to discuss the spent-fuel pool cooling system, going to broach in the subject about, as if a

bringing

the RST via teleconference,

not the ET

back there. MALE PARTICIPANT: Right, and the RST is

preparing for that.

We got word of that. Okay. Back to to the EOC, I and

JOHN MONAGER: MALE guess there was

PARTICIPANT:

a concern related

the levels

what we would subject our folks to. JOHN MONAGER: guess my thoughts, emergency response. it's -Twenty-five. 25 rem limit or what, Right, right. You know, I

we would follow NRC guidelines for You know, I guess, it's what?

I'm not sure if

MALE PARTICIPANT: JOHN MONAGER: but we would follow -here. --

you know, we have dosimetry out et cetera. Yes, yes. You know,

We have KI out here,

MALE PARTICIPANT: JOHN MONAGER: So,

Tim called.

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393 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2 you know, dose, maybe putting maybe mixed I is that he gave us a briefing on that yesterday. MALE PARTICIPANT: we're in the position I don't think the sense of making the heroic

efforts. JOHN MONAGER: Right, right. it's (inaudible,

MALE PARTICIPANT: possibly 'Bill") It (inaudible).

John,

sounds like to me it

would preclude us

from assembling and operating this equipment. JOHN MONAGER: thoughts thought Oh, oh, so, yes, you there was asked the the NRC

there. you were

When

question, employees

thinking

and potentially going up the federal or installing

to the EOF or the the U.S. and citizens that

EOC exposure versus or federal

government

operating

spent-fuel pool cooling system. MALE PARTICIPANT: That's correct. I mean

that's really the basis for the question. JOHN MONAGER: Yes, yes. Well, I mean,

there's the dose issue, but,

even absent the So,

I mean you have those explosions out there. someone U.S. is not getting in to the think dosed, but if for

you're those

citizens you've got

potential about

explosions, too.

that

aspect,

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394 1 2 3 4 raise 6 7 it. TEPCO, MALE PARTICIPANT: So, when you talked to --

did you raise this whole notion of whether

their need to assemble and operate this equipment? JOHN I MONAGER: think they Yes. haven't We'll asked definitely for the

equipment is

or the personnel support yet.

The question

whether they'll raise it. I guess my question for you guys is, if

9 1 1 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2 21 22 23 24 25

they raise the personnel support, say no or what? MALE PARTICIPANT: little more information. there. JOHN MONAGER: MALE had a name, report Yokota Right. We

would we definitely

Well,

let us give you a some of the

believe

equipment is

PARTICIPANT: base

We believe, -and the

well, air from

we base the

from an air Air Base --

people,

soldiers

Defense Forces of Japan at 0600 picked up five pumps from that air base. JOHN MONAGER: Right. And are driving them on

MALE PARTICIPANT: the 196 miles to Fukushima. JOHN MONAGER: the difficulty is, if

Right.

I'll

tell you that

those guys show up at the plant, it or not. You know, there's

whether they'll accept

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395 1 2 3 4 this whole notion out there that they haven't asked

for help yet.

They turned down a fire truck because

of some issues already. MALE PARTICIPANT: JOHN MONAGER: Yes, Yes. yes. That was true. All right.

6 7

12 12 13 1 1 16 17 18 19 20 2 22 23 24 25 -let's I that's in JOHN MONAGER: Okay. All right. So,

one of the emails out there? MALE PARTICIPANT: see if No, I talked to a Major It's Yokota Air a Major -well,

I can get his name.

Base. Metudac

talked to a Major on the air base, (phonetic). He said that soldiers


--

they're really not called "soldiers" from the Defense Forces of Japan

but personnel up that

picked

equipment,

the five pumps,

at 0600 today at your time

today and are driving it

to Fukushima.

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396

1 2

3
4

7 8 9 1 -looking for

JOHN MONAGER: MALE is

Right,

right. And so, what we're they're

PARTICIPANT: we need to

find

out

where

taking this equipment, actually drawing. lading or Bechtel is -we have

a staging area, Bechtel has

so that when we our cartoon of So,


--

1i
12 13 14 1 1 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

got

They're engineering -the specifications

they have the bill

from the air base.

engineering the rest of the equipment JOHN MONAGER: Okay. -you know,

MALE PARTICIPANT: to be done. We're also in is the working in air base parallel can

what needs

parallel,

I think Jim Trapp that two

to see what other things and we've got these

supply,

different supply streams working to get this stuff up there. JOHN MONAGER: MALE happen, then, is That's good. But to know, what you needs know, to if

PARTICIPANT: we need

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397 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2 MALE PARTICIPANT: Right. o'clock information, see if somebody from TEPCO, when you talk to them, where is

this equipment going to be? We are also working with Naval Reactors to they can contact these guys en route, such that

we know where they are going to have this equipment, the staging area for it. So, it if you can help us with that

would be great. Yes, that will be which is the 10

JOHN MONAGER: call,

the 10 o'clock meeting,

about

20 minutes from now. guys into that meeting.

We're going to try to pull you

FEMALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT:

Okay. Yes. Right. Right.

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398 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2 it's going JOHN MONAGER: My thought is the stuff

should be pretty basic. MALE PARTICIPANT: Well, here's our plan: The stuff is

to go to a staging area. It's well, at

going to be assembled. could have Americans, basic equipment, we

that staging area we because it help is

just basic,

could have Americans you know,

to go

assemble it

with the --

at the staging area

with the Japanese that are actually going to assemble it at the site. So, the view is you assemble it. right? You have

some sort of assemble procedure, JOHN MONAGER: Right.

MALE PARTICIPANT:

The Japanese

can write

their own assembly procedure and operating procedure. You disassemble it. take it to the site. The Japanese then take it. They reassemble it They

and they

operate it. JOHN MONAGER: That's sounds perfect. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: where the staging area is. JOHN MONAGER: Yes, we're going to find Yes. So, we have to find out Yes, that sounds perfect.

out the staging area and some of these other issues. NEAL R. GROSS
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399
1 2 3 4 fields. Now, Oh, I'm sorry, the other I'm drawing a blank. issue was the high rad

5
6 7
8 9 10 11 12 13 14 1 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 JOHN MONAGER: agreement here. Now the thing for these pumps, et cetera. you know, that came to my mind was, I think we re in complete

you've got multiple pumps,

The notion was to have them all ready on or whatever, They don't the a

the back of flatbed trucks or trailers, so they can just be driven in have the time or to have the exposure, to put it and parked.

they can't afford on a forklift

exposure

going

couple miles per hour, beach. with They have the thing in,

you know,

a mile down to the trailer

to have it unhook it,

on a truck or if it's

on a trailer,

and get out. NEAL R.GROSS


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400 MALE 2 3 4 PARTICIPANT: So, there is a dose-

rate issue when you bring this stuff in? JOHN dose-rate issue. MALE PARTICIPANT: Okay. It changes all the time, 20 MONAGER: There is an incredible

6 7

JOHN MONAGER:

but some of the areas they were talking, R per hour.

you know,

9 1 11 12 13 1 15 16 17 18 19
20 you know,

MALE PARTICIPANT:

Yes.

We've got Bechtel

that's doing the remainder of the engineering on this. JOHN MONAGER: MALE that they Right. So, is we'll really make a sure

PARTICIPANT: that this

understand

design

requirement. JOHN MONAGER:


whether you go --

Yes.

The other

thing is,

and I'm not a pipe guy --

whether you go but if you

with a go with

flexible pipe or a hard pipe, hard pipe and flanges and

connections,

you're really going to get whacked on the

dose versus some type of --

21 22 23 24 25 You know,

MALE PARTICIPANT: like I said,

Yes,

I understand that. the engineers

the engineers,

at Bechtel are working this problem as we speak. JOHN MONAGER: All right. We are going to

the TEPCO meeting and we're really going to try hard

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401 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

to get you in in 20 minutes.


MALE PARTICIPANT: JOHN MONAGER: Bye-bye. Okay. Thank you. Thank you.

All right.

23 24

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402 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 (phonetic) not that? I reviewed the video. Tony and Brook it's Operations bridge. FEMALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: A couple of Hey, We're here, Chuck. hey, guys. One, a couple of (CONFERENCE CALL INITIATED) MALE PARTICIPANT: Chuck This Casto is Headquarters up on the

Officer.

coming

things.

times this morning, into the Ops Center.

we have gotten busy signals going So, I don't know if we need to

work on more lines or a sneak line or a dedicated line or something, you. MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: If Okay. you guys would work on so that we can get straight through to

and I reviewed You're to do a

the video. talking

You know, a at

very clear. trying

about

helicopter once in a You

that's field.

lot

of

things

And they tried to scan all

four units.

have to look through a window.

And they claim there's pool.

a reflection of water on the Unit 4 spent-fuel It's not clear.

I mean you really can't see anything. there. You don't know if it's

There's

something

steel or water.

They claim it's NEALR. GROSS

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403 1 2 3 4 there's Now we do know that it's steaming. Now

steam coming out of the side of the building So, it is steamy as a

where the spent-fuel pool is. minimum.

5
6 7 8 9 1 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 o'clock p.m.,

I guess we need to know -- and that was at


five o'clock yesterday. MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: how long does it So, At Unit 4? I guess we need to know,

take to steam down a spent-fuel pool? Five o'clock a.m. or

FEMALE PARTICIPANT: p.m. yesterday, Chuck? CHUCK CASTO: Sorry.

The way I

got

it

was

five

Japanese Standard Time. FEMALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: So, it's Okay. been about 14 hours

ago or something like that. Clearly, greater rate. try some Unit 3 is steaming at a much

Their strategy, helicopter and they're drops, about

they are continuing to which to, are in highly some

ineffective, future,

sometime

they want to get some crowd control up there with in

tanks and

try to shoot water tanks, which is,

some crowd control that's not

you know,

my judgment,

very effective. You've got debris everywhere. The

NEALR.GROSS
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

404 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2 21 22 23 24 25 fix, and so is building has had an explosion. see in there, for the debris. I mean you can hardly To think that you're there and of a

going to shoot a crowd control cannon up in have some effective cooling of a zirc, spent-fuel pool, And I don't know if either way,

you know,

that's going to work. a temporary fix,

that's

a helicopter drop.

I mean you can do that

for a while, enough know,

but you're not going to be able to drop into that spent-fuel I guess, pool. You

efficiently

you can keep doing that,

but that's not

a long-term fix. So, we still need to work on the permanent whatever you call it,

something quasi-permanent,

of a hard pipe system in MALE working that angle.

there from the exterior. Okay. And we're

PARTICIPANT:

The hard pipe system Yes. Yes, I know. There's

CHUCK CASTO: parallel paths, Defense about

and I've got to go see the Minister of that and other issues. And, then, we

have an all-Government bunch of other stuff.

briefing here at

10:30,

and a

There's all kinds of briefings

and meetings and huddles. MALE PARTICIPANT: So, I suppose you're

not available for "60 Minutes" yet? CHUCK CASTO: No.

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405 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 Unit 4. reflection, water it's in


working --

MALE Dude. Eliot

PARTICIPANT: is fending

Hey, off

Chuck, news;

come

on,

the

you're

(inaudible, possibly "bothered") by name. CHUCK CASTO: that. Where was I going? on that. MALE PARTICIPANT: No, no, we're You guys distracted me I don't care about any of

CHUCK CASTO:

The Chairman,

you know,

we

need to probably let Bill and the Chairman know that on yesterday we were going by we thought the explosion, 4 spent-fuel that, with

there was structural damage to the Unit pool. We don't really know if there's

any integrity in really show if

that pool or not.

The video doesn't

there's integrity. some what they claim is some

There's

but we can't tell. of five

We knew there is o'clock yesterday

there as

because

steaming. So, I think the right call is still on

And Unit 3 is

steaming even worse.

I think

24

-NEAL R.GROSS
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

406 1

3 4

5
6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 question. meeting, special MALE PARTICIPANT: of that video, do you? CASTO: They claim that it's a You don't have a copy

CHUCK video file

that takes a special video player software, and the file's too large

and all this stuff, to give to us.

Imagine that. Yes. they're not going to

MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: let us have that video. know, that thing gets

Look,

You know, out. You

the next thing you know, they're not

interested in sharing that thing with us right now. MALE PARTICIPANT: No, no, I was just

asking to complete. CHUCK CASTO: We asked Yes. and So, i I mean that was a good it was asked in the

that,

and they said no. "Hey; if you look" Yes.

we do what we can do. right?--

They say,

. NEAL R.GROSS
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407 I 2 3 4 5j 6 7 8 9 10 1i 12 13 1 1 1 1 1 19 2 2 22 23 24 2 away, some question, the video fuel pool? design tell that with me, and he looked at it. What's your assessment of it? I mean it's as the helicopter is flying by. Yes. on the facility but I couldn't just a split-second shot CHUCK CASTO: = .is from DOE,

He was standing there

a thing.

CHUCK CASTO:

I'm not the expert NRC folks are here,

the

BILL:

Do we know it's

the Unit 4 spent-

Are we certain that that's the case? CHUCK Bill. from CASTO: Because Conti, Well, that's a good

the guy that was showing us from the Government, said,

"TEPCO told us this is So,

where

the spent-fuel

pool is."

we don't even know that that's the damned spent-

fuel pool that we was looking at. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: CHUCK CASTO: feet away, Chuck, Chuck
--

All we can tell is

some feet out of

there was steam coming "Well, yeah,

the building.

And they said,

that's not is, the but the

right where we think the spent-fuel pool wind's blowing really hard today and

wind's

blowing the steam away from the spent-fuel pool." NEAL R. GROSS
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408 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 11 1 13 14 15 16
17

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: CHUCK CASTO: what the hell we looked at. MALE PARTICIPANT: So,

Chuck? we really don't know

Chuck,

think

the

Chairman's trying to join the bridge. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO:


CHUCK CASTO:

Chuck?

You've got --

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO:


CHUCK CASTO: --

Chuck?
had an

a building that's

explosion and has debris everywhere, to look at it with a helicopter

and you're trying flying by in there.

that's

split-seconds.

You can't tell anything in

You know, a reflection,

they claim there's a glimmer of it's steaming. unit 3 is

but, you know,

steaming even harder. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO:


CHUCK CASTO:

Chuck?
that -I'm

They're methods

18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

sorry,

Mr.

Chairman. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: Chuck, again, just

can you tell is no water in

me the source of your belief the No. (sic) fuel pool? Well, that's

that there

CHUCK just talking

CASTO:

what

we were us

about.

Yesterday

they

showed

snapshots,

and it

looked like to our team members that the spent-fuel

there was not a structural integrity in NEAL R. GROSS


COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.
VI' 2A_AA2O

WA2MIF.T("AN

fl Cn 9r.

-?flr. 1

mw npnlrnrnqQ rnm

409
pool for Unit 4. 2 NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: the -CHUCK CASTO: the Japanese looked, 7 8 9 1 1 12 13 14 1 1 17 1 19 2 21 22 23 24 2 would guess, four units, after Government I'm sorry. showed us it TEPCO and Conti, snapshots, looked and like it the And again, they are

3
4

the explosion,

and

pool had lost structural

integrity of the snapshots. Today they're is

Those were outer walls of the building. saying, not still well,

the pool doesn't have an outer wall, with the outer wall, so they

associated be intact.

could

However, and it's

they

flew

helicopter

by

the

really inconclusive

as you look

at the video, which they showed us, with us, there said, it for whatever reasons. looks is like a reflection that

but won't share it "Look, And we And the

And they say, in there." pool?" us

"Well,

the spent-fuel

guy says,

"Where that's where they tell

the spent-

fuel pool is,

and we think that's a water reflection." Off is to the side about 15 or 20 feet, I So,

steam coming out of the building.

you would assume that that's the spent-fuel pool with some amount of water in 14 hours ago. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: NEAL R.GROSS
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON. D.C. 20005-3701

it,

left in

it.

But that was

Uh-hum.

So,

do you

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410 1
2 3 4 there is There 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 which it's at know, don't is have any change in pool, of water in CHUCK your view of the pool? CASTO: I would It say, with steam, the condition of the

some water in some water

the pool. in the

may not be empty. but that was 14

pool,

hours ago. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: CHUCK there was know how 14 CASTO: some much hours in So, of was Okay. we don't in know. it, You but we it's you

amount water ago,

water in it

because tell

steaming,

but

today we can't

how much water is NRC there's water in

that pool. JACZKO: So, do you think

CHAIRMAN

the pool right now? That's what I was asking the would take a lot

CHUCK CASTO: Reactor Safety Team. to steam-down

Tell me how long it you know, but

the pool,

there's

you don't know. much water is in

You don't know the steaming rate, how there. There's a lot. let's say take

You know, you could assume that, the top at the fuel.

How long would it

to steam-down to the bottom of the fuel? hours do you have there?

And how many

Their recovery methods are to try, again, they've, I think, failed once, to drop water

NEAL R.GROSS
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411 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21
22

from a helicopter. to clear the road,

The other is so that they

that they're trying can bring in some

crowd control tanks, these crowd

you know, In

like you see in our opinion,

a riot, are a

controls.

those

highly-inefficient methods of trying to get water in spent-fuel pool, an especially in a building that's

had

explosion and has damage

everywhere.

And we are

not even sure that that pump has enough head to pump up to the top of that building. a good try. You should do it So, you know, but that's not an

maybe,

effective or a long-term solution. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: So, at this point, Is that

you no longer believe that the pool is what I'm hearing? CHUCK o'clock yesterday, CASTO: I would

dry?

say,

as

of it.

five

the pool had some water in Okay.

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: publicly the pool is dry. Yes,

Now I've said

CHUCK CASTO: NRC CHAIRMAN

I know that. Do you think that

JACZKO:

that's inaccurate?
CHUCK CASTO: We can
--

it's

so

23
24

inconclusive,
mean
--

we

really

can't

tell,

either

way.

NRC

CHAIRMAN

JACZKO:

Well,

so

it's

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412 1 2 3 4 inaccurate you're tell me. CHUCK CASTO: inaccurate to say it's dry. Okay. today, in it with the at five I would say it's probably for me It's to say okay it's if dry? that's Is the that case; what just

saying?

6
7 8 9 10 Okay. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 We have video, that

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: CHUCK CASTO: they had had It

appears

some water

o'clock yesterday or it

wouldn't be steaming. Okay. Okay. Okay.

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO:

Anything else? Did we get Marty? MALE PARTICIPANT: Marty's here, yes. Marty, did you want

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: to say something on the call? MARTY VIRGILIO: one dose limit No, that

but I agree with you. doesn't discriminate

between age or gender. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: MARTY VIRGILIO: Okay. saidElE

That

6-,-
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413

2
3 4

6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 So, NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: we're still comfortable -Well, tell okay. Good.

well,

me which of

the four points we're still CHUCK answer that or


--

comfortable with. Marty, are you going to

CASTO:

NEAL R.GROSS
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

414 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 11 12 13 14 1 16 17 18 19 2 21 22 23 24 2 Monager was dry? MARTY VIRGILIO: yesterday, and they That's what he told John asked John, given a dry source of it? MARTY VIRGILIO: Yes. TEPCO said the pool know, but know, dry. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: they speak Right, right. No, I our necessarily dry? MARTY VIRGILIO: Well, speak that's not, you being 1. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: good with Okay. that But we're not the pool is all of them. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: MARTY VIRGILIO: Okay. good with No. MARTY VIRGILIO: CHUCK CASTO: Yes.

I think here we're good with

I'm still

the statement

four points don't

to the pool

to my credibility.

That's

the

problem. MARTY VIRGILIO: Yes, It but think about

where that statement came from. John Monager yesterday. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO:

came from TEPCO to

Okay,

that's

the

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO:

NEAL R. GROSS
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

415 pool, 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 1 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2 Okay. NEAL R.GROSS


COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

what are

the

four or

five

things,

what

things

could we do to control the radiation release? NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: CHUCK CASTO: only one. same thing. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: CHUCK "Well, CASTO: Now Okay. today they're saying, I think, Okay.

And I don't think that's the they told him the

to Jim Trapp,

we were just postulating that it NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: MARTY VIRGILIO: I Okay. mean

would go dry."

that

was was

pretty dry and

clear with Monager;

they had told him it

we needed some actions. if

What actions would you take

you had lost the integrity of the pool? NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: Okay. That's fine.

Okay. MARTY Government great. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: MARTY VIRGILIO: I'd like to see a better Yes. I am hopeful, than we had are now VIRGILIO: changing So, their TEPCO position. and the

That's

You know, situation

yesterday. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: Yes, yes. Okay.

416 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 have that (inaudible). MARTY VIRGILIO: No, because we didn't question. where is was also MALE recording So, PARTICIPANT: dose at rates a in Notwithstanding rems per hour at in least we're the a

vicinity.

minimum,

there's

significant amount of fuel that's exposed. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: MARTY VIRGILIO: 30 rem between Yes. The last I saw

Right. and 4.

Building 3

I don't know

where that number came from. MALE PARTICIPANT: from uncovered fuel. MARTY VIRGILIO: NRC CHAIRMAN Right. Okay. And that, That's right. That's

JACZKO:

that dose measurement coming from? MARTY VIRGILIO: What I read was between

Building 3 and 4. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: Oh, I mean the

source of the information. MARTY VIRGILIO: Right, that's It the came

How did we get that information?

from the field team somewhere. FEMALE PARTICIPANT: But that's the

(inaudible, possibly "talk") MALE PARTICIPANT: NEAL R. GROSS


COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701

yesterday.

Did either Jim or Tony

(202) 234-4433

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417 1 2 3 4 and look. Unit 4. FEMALE PARTICIPANT: 6 7 8 9 the field? FEMALE Japanese website, PARTICIPANT:
--

provide that information? FEMALE PARTICIPANT: We ran (inaudible) I'd have 40 rems to go back in

(inaudible)

I heard those numbers

last night,

too. MALE PARTICIPANT: Was that reported from

It

was

(inaudible)

11
11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

JAIF

FEMALE PARTICIPANT: last night. It was and reported

No, over.

but we heard But I

it

can't

remember the folks,

(inaudible).

(Inaudible). MALE too. (Inaudible). MALE PARTICIPANT: can we provide you? NRC CHAIRMAN still JACZKO: So, again, are we Mr. Chairman, what else PARTICIPANT: Yes, he heard that,

comfortable with the four statements? CHUCK CASTO: We are here in Okay. Japan. But we have about the pool

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO:


--

so,

the source of

the information

was directly from TEPCO? MARTY VIRGILIO: Right, to John Monager.

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418 NRC directly right, from CHAIRMAN JACZKO: TEPCO to John Okay. So, it was it's

Monager.

Maybe

maybe it's

wrong,

but what is

the likelihood,

you think,

that we have a full pool at this point? CHUCK CASTO: It's highly unlikely with

the steam that's boiling off of it. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: indications of steam? CHUCK CASTO: Yes, it's on the Okay. And you have

-the
Unit 4.

steam. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: CHUCK CASTO: Okay. steaming more than

Unit 3 is

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: CHUCK CASTO: So,

Okay. is on Unit

their focus

--

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: CHUCK CASTO: MARTY Chairman, at --

Okay.

quite heavily. But recent


at --

VIRGILIO:

K>

the meeting you were just

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO:


MARTY VIRGILIO:
--

Yes.

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: MARTY VIRGILIO:

Yes.

And those

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419

NRC possible that

CHAIRMAN they have,

JACZKO:

Chuck,

is

it

KS>

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: MARTY Chairman, VIRGILIO:

OKay. Information to you,

at the meeting --

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: classified line. MARTY VIRGILIO: Right.

Marty,

I'm not on a

I understand.

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420 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 1 1 17 1 19 2 21 22 23 24 25 Thanks. Okay. ELIOT: Thanks, Mr. everybody. Eliot. it, this alone. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: saying you're still Okay. 4? So, you're and, is fourth, that So, NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: again, we're still Okay. Well, thanks.

comfortable with the points? Yes. Okay. But we may spent-

MARTY VIRGILIO: NRC

CHAIRMAN JACZKO:

have some question about the amount of water in fuel pool No. 4? Right. Okay. our Okay.

CHUCK CASTO:

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: uncertainty change any of

Does the

views

about

recommendations? MARTY VIRGILIO: NRC CHAIRMAN 4? No, not the 50 miles. Okay. But the

JACZKO: Marty,

the Point No.

you know what the No.

4 point is? MARTY VIRGILIO: yes, based Yes. Yes, I'm looking at and again, dose

I would say yes, not necessarily

based on -on

radioactive

comfortable with No. Yes. JACZKO:

MARTY VIRGILIO: NRC CHAIRMAN

Okay.

Okay.

Chairman,

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421 1 2 3 4 NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: ELIOT: Mr. Chairman? Yes? hearing anything correct? Yes, that's to Bye.

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: ELIOT: I'm not

5 6
7

suggest we should be rolling back tonight, NRC correct. ELIOT: NRC wanted to add? ELIOT: No, no. I mean, Thank you. JACZKO: CHAIRMAN JACZKO: Yes.

8 9
Ii 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 .18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Unit 3. You know, dry, it, but it it's

CHAIRMAN

Anything

else

you

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: me ask you that.

Chuck,

let

Do you think I need to roll back any

of the statements that I made? CHUCK CASTO: I don't, It I don't think so.

we've gone over it.

may not have been With the steam on is on

certainly wasn't full.

inconclusive of where the water level

Unit 4 --

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: CHUCK CASTO:


-I

Okay.
the best
--

think is

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: CHUCK CASTO:

Okay. 3, certainly on

Or on Unit

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: NEAL R,GROSS

Okay.

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422 CHUCK 2 actions, it's, CASTO: And without mitigating

without adding water to that spent-fuel pool,


--

you know

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: 5CHUCK 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 Thanks. Bye. CHUCK CASTO: BRUCE BOGER: CHUCK CASTO: BRUCE BOGER: a little while ago -Bruce? Yes, CASTO: --

It

will be dry?

you lose water. Yes. Okay. Okay.

NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO:

Chuck?

What else do we need to -I think where we were headed Bill, don't go away -yes,

13
14 1 16 17 18 19 2 21 22 23 2 2

we're still piping and

trying to figure out how to get the hard the rest of the stuff necessary to

establish a pumping system. CHUCK CASTO: BRUCE BOGER: working pretty Right. We heard the request. and trying We're our some to of

aggressively,

to work

way through some of our -bureaucratic-type encounter. paths going, out there. CHUCK CASTO: Bill things advises

you know, that me we

(inaudible) might got a have couple

we've

but we're pushing hard to get that stuff

That's

great,

and

know

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1 2

13

follow through with

that and make sure that

happens.

1
1 16 1 1 19 2 2 22

If

we've told the world we can do it

and

--

oh,

I've
I

got to go to a meeting with the Ambassador and them, forgot, at 10:30 here, So, in two minutes.

I know you all are working on it.

We to

want to come through on that after committing to it the Prime Minister. MALE PARTICIPANT: to the point where we Yes. Well, to need

we may get

are going

there to sign off on a procurement for Bechtel. 23 CHUCK CASTO: Okay. We'll is. get whomever

24

you need to sign off on whatever it 2 MALE PARTICIPANT:

We're working to get it

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424 to a point where that might happen. him a heads-up along the way, CHUCK CASTO: this to? MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: MALE PARTCICIPTANT CHUCK CASTO:
FEMALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: Head of the I)ART.

So,
--

if

you give

that's

Who's this,

I've got to tell

I 'm sorry?

The DART?

MALE DART.

PARTICIPANT:

Yes,

he's hea d of

the

CHUCK CASTO:

Yes,

we can get DART. We'll get DART.

DART, That's

we're working well together. no problem. MALE PARTICIPANT: down the pike. Thanks. CASTO: All

Okay.

That might come

CHUCK soon.

right.

Talk

to

you

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425

1
2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 meeting, Headquarters

(CONFERENCE CALL INITIATED) MALE PARTICIPANT: Officer. This is the coming

Operations

Chuck Casto

up on the bridge. FEMALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: Hey, We're here. hey, guys, Hey, Chuck.

FEMALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: but I

Chuck. to another

I've got to get

just wanted to tell

you that Tony took

11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 there was helicopter steam last night went by, at there's building. For me, I'm evermore convinced that

nothing there. And I

There's major damage

to that on it.

just have to stake my career

But I don't see that there's any structural there at all.

integrity

You know, five o'clock when Who knows? the It

steam or smoke.

might have been a fire inside the building. tell. FEMALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: Unit 4,

You can't

correct?

Do what? Unit 4? Unit 4.

FEMALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: Yes,

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426 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 FEMALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: 01

And the

mm

-m

18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25 So, I feel as

NEAL R.GROSS
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

427 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 heard, confident in this stuff as you can to stick with the

Chairman's statement. MALE PARTICIPANT: that the Japanese and, Yes. were also, Now what we also talking a riot about cannon,

helicopter-lifted you know,

buckets

a water-fired riot cannon. CHUCK CASTO: Right. That's what I told

you earlier, yes. MALE PARTICIPANT: Yes, in order to

10

provide some additional water. FEMALE PARTICIPANT: You can see the

12 13 14 15 16 18

helicopters on TV. MALE PARTICIPANT:


yes.

Yes,

they've

got

pumping now on the --

CHUCK CASTO: in days. But,


meeting, but--

Yes,

I haven't

seen the TV

okay,

I've got to get

to this other

18
'9 20 23

MALE PARTICIPANT: us? CHUCK CASTO:

Anything you need from

No, we're good,

I think.

We

22
23 24

just saw the military again,

and they have got pumps. Yes, nine pumps were

FEMALE PARTICIPANT: dropped off. CHUCK CASTO: Yes,

they've

got

pumps

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428 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R. GROSS


COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W. WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005-3701

headed on the way.

So,

DoD's moving equipment. Okay. Great.

FEMALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: Okay.

FEMALE PARTICIPANT: as our No. there. CHUCK priority. All right, work. guys. CASTO: Get 1 priority now, is

That's what we yve got to get equipme:nt over

equipment,

that's

Hey,

thanks for all the

You guys are doing a great job. FEMALE PARTICIPANT: All right, Chuck, go

to your other meeting. done. CHUCK CASTO:

We'll talk to you when you get

Thanks.

Bye. Bye.

FEMALE PARTICIPANT:

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429 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2> 21 22 23 24 2 meanwhile, to let based we're here. FEMALE PARTICIPANT: NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: the status is? of a worst-case would We're here. Hi. Do we know what Headquarters (CONFERENCE CALL INITIATED) MALE PARTICIPANT: This is the coming

Ops Officer.

Chairman Jaczko is

up on the bridge. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: MALE PARTICIPANT: Yes. Yes, Hello. Mr. Hello.

Chairman,

We were doing some MACCS runs on kind scenario Do to see what the the West Coast status of those

impacts results?

be.

we know

MALE PARTICIPANT: FEMALE

Let us get the PMP. Chairman, in the

PARTICIPANT:

while we're waiting for the PMP,

we wanted and

you know we just heard from Chuck Casto, on some information he just received

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430

2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Research. think, miles. that, water? we

NRC have

CHAIRMAN other

JACZKO:

Okay. that

Okay. there's

So no

confirmation

FEMALE PARTICIPANT: NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: MALE PARTICIPANT:

Yes. Okay. Mr. Chairman, they

haven't gotten the report back from NARAC on the runs they were doing on the West Coast implications. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: Okay. I thought we

were running our own independent runs. VONNA ORDAZ: We can't do that beyond 50

MALE

PARTICIPANT:

Fifty Vonna is I

miles right.

is,

the limits of our tools, NRC CHAIRMAN

JACZKO: earlier in

understood,

talked to Jennifer Uhle

the day,

and she

said we were going to run some MACCS codes of our own, independent from NARAC. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: NRC CHAIRMAN Out of Research. Okay, out of Research. Yes, out of

JACZKO:

MALE PARTICIPANT: FEMALE

Okay, we'll check. And, then, our

PARTICIPANT: NEAL R.GROSS

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431 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 understanding, priorities, also, is that they were on a variety of

and we may not be at the top of that list. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: Yes, that's fine.

But we were going to do the MACCS runs. going to do that. FEMALE PARTICIPANT: NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: Okay. Is

Research was

We can check. she available or

8
9 FEMALE room, but we can
--

PARTICIPANT:

She's

not

in

the

10
11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2

MALE PARTICIPANT: the Center. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: but I don't think -NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: back to feeling confident

haven't

seen her

in

Yes, Yes,

we'll call her. we can call her,

So,

right now, dry

we're is an

that

the pool

accurate statement? MALE information we PARTICIPANT: just got Yes, based it's on the

from Chuck,

validating

where we've been all day. NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: Hey, if Okay. Okay.

you get information on the MACCS, I'm going to head home,

can you just give me a call?

and just give me a ring about that. NEAL R.GROSS


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432 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 1 13 15 Thanks. FEMALE PARTICIPANT: NRC CHAIRMAN JACZKO: Thank you. Bye. MALE PARTICIPANT:
Jennifer and --

Okay.

We'll track down

NRC

CHAIRMAN

JACZKO:

Okay.

Thanks.

16

1E

2C 21 22 23 24 25q

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433 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 on the line. the line? MALE PARTICIPANT: Go ahead. MARTY VIRGILIO: This is Marty Virgilio. Yes, Naval Reactors is (CONFERENCE CALL INITIATED) MALE PARTICIPANT: Naval Reactors is on

I was looking for Steve Trautman. MR. is not in the BURROWS ECC (phonetic): now. Yes, is Mr. Mr. Trautman Burrows

8
9

right

This

10

(phonetic).

I'm acting for him in MR. ROBERTS: Okay.

the ECC. Mr. Burrows, this is

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 2 22 23 2 25

Mr.

Roberts.

I'm going to hang up from the bridge.

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434 1 2 3 with me, wanted (CONFERENCE CALL INITIATED) MALE PARTICIPANT: I have Tom Roberts here

and I guess we're hearing that Admiral Donald to talk to the Chairman to get some

4 5
6 7

clarification.

8
9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

K>

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.11

2 3 4

7 8 9

12 13 12

115
16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 2 2 MALE PARTICIPANT: plugged into that, radiologically to
--

Right.

And so,

are you

to advise on whether it

makes sense

MALE PARTICIPANT: more than radiological issues -MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT:

Yes.

No,

I think it's

Uh-hum. -that the Ambassador

has under consideration right now. You know, our position is that it is

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436

wmmu mm

K'S\
E

11

14

1E 12

18 19 2 21
22

23
24

MALE PARTICIPANT:
MALE PARTICIPANT:

Right.

This is
--

--

(Inaudible)

25

MALE

PARTICIPANT:

This

is

not some thing

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437 1 2 3 4 5 question, some we've calculated or we've recommended. We're

responding to the Ambassador's request at this point. MALE PARTICIPANT: isn't Okay. Let me ask the at the PEG

there an ALARA consideration here We made calculate relative that to if, your in fact,

level?

assumptions 7

50-mile

calculation come to pass, 2 rem total miles. now effective And

that you would get like 1 to out to if it 150 to

dose equivalent it make

9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17

200

wouldn't

sense, wouldn't

we're make

talking

voluntary

departure,

sense to recommend voluntary departure in avoiding that level of population dose? MALE PARTICIPANT: opinion? MALE PARTICIPANT: Sure.

the name of

Do you want my personal

18
19 2 21 22 23 24 251 MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: That's my own personal view. And Right.

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438

I 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12

radiation is

just one factor. MALE PARTICIPANT: Right. on So, but what we or you are

are

charged

with

advising
--

radiation

charged with advising MALE

PARTICIPANT:

And

that's

in

our

protective action to up to 50 miles. MALE PARTICIPANT: being so rigid in right strict thing is Right, but why are we The to

terms of doing the right thing? an ALARA thing here, in addition

interpretation of PEG.

14

16 17 18 19 2O 21 22 23 24 25 MALE PARTICIPANT: -Yes. -I suppose, I suppose If you went to a

(inaudible, possible "law")

MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT:

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439 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 is, you could get there. MALE PARTICIPANT: Yes, so the question

how much should the law play into --

17

181
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440 .1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

-mI
MIN

-mi
-

-U

mU m-,i

mmm-
-

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 FEMALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: Yes. And the scope of that,

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441 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 as you understood it from him, was --

12A
13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

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442 MALE PARTICIPANT: Right. Now, if we were you

asked to advise strictly on radiological grounds, would or would not take into consideration ALARA? MALE PARTICIPANT: Yes, if I would,

but

keep coming back to I think that, the 50-mile zone,

you're out beyond

there are other factors -That


--

MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT:

take in that

-on this

bear

decision.. MALE PARTICIPANT: VONNA ORDAZ: And Okay. other countries have

recognized that as well in releases. MALE


-thanks. Vonna

PARTICIPANT:
Ordaz is

In

the press
me,

releases
she is

here with

and

saying

in

the

press

releases

other

countries

are

acknowledging that the radioactive dose is many considerations. VONNA ORDAZ: Structural Right.
--

just one of

(inaudible)

--

MALE PARTICIPANT:
VONNA communications, ORDAZ:
--

transportation,

and other

MALE PARTICIPANT: 3~ P IAN~

Right, ka.

yes. S
-

''

"

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2 3 4 5 6 .1 7 8 9 10 --- E PARTICIPANT: Okay.

K>"

MALE PARTICIPANT: 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 here.


MALE MALE MALE MALE MALE MALE

All right. And if necessary, we'll

MALE PARTICIPANT: have another conversation. MALE PARTICIPANT:

Thanks.

Yes,

we're

PARTICIPANT: PARTICIPANT: PARTICIPANT: PARTICIPANT: PARTICIPANT: PARTICIPANT:

Thank you. Bye-bye. Bye. Don't hesitate. Uh-hum. Bye.

All right.

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444 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 he'll left think things, if (CONFERENCE CALL INITIATED) DAN DORMAN: JOSH BATKIN: DAN DORMAN: Hi, Josh. Who's that?

Hello.

Dan Dorman. And Marty Virgilio. gentlemen.

MARTY VIRGILIO: JOSH BATKIN: DAN DORMAN: JOSH now is BATKIN:

Hello,

Good evening. I only It's have two quick

a good time.

not urgent. a very good time. if anybody is I very

MARTY VIRGILIO: JOSH BATKIN: from day shift, they worked

This is

First of all,

they kicked some butt today. very hard, but it was a

important day for a number of reasons, great job of So, producing if information

and they did a that -was I very guess,

important.

you could pass there. Yes. He's got

that

Marty, you're still

MARTY VIRGILIO: DAN DORMAN:

his

sleeping

bag

rolled out in the corner. JOSH BATKIN: (Laughter.) Put him get some quiet. My other two quick things were the in the corner by the table, so Awesome.

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445 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 2 2 not you,


--

Chairman, o'clock

Marty, from

the Chairman is

going to do the eight So, the eight

the White

House again.

o'clock call tomorrow morning at the White House -MARTY VIRGILIO: to the White House for that. JOSH BATKIN: Right, he will be there for Right, right, he will go

the Situation Room at the White House. Is there any way that you guys could, so

as to further use all of the wonderful work that will go on over the night to update the information that we have, is there any way somebody could get him an

updated book or get me an updated book at House before eight o'clock? MARTY VIRGILIO: think. Yes,

the White

I'm just trying to

We could figure that out. JOSH BATKIN: Okay. Where would it be best to

MARTY VIRGILIO:

you're going to be with him? JOSH BATKIN: Yes, I'll be with him.

MARTY VIRGILIO: JOSH Marty, BATKIN: somebody,

Okay. Meet me at because the you southwest, should be

sleeping. MARTY VIRGILIO: (Laughter.) NEAL R.GROSS


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I'll

still

be here.

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446 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 I1 11 1 1 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that. MALE PARTICIPANT: That's no problem. right office. feel now. So, update in book") at the sleepy. JOSH BATKIN: Yes, exactly. Yes, if somebody could just meet me at like 7:45 or something? Oh, no. No, you should be

No. southwest

gate

They're done with their update? the normal schedule, right?

That's enough time on

MALE PARTICIPANT: the (inaudible,

Yes,

I think we target or "gold

possibly "go book"

around 6:00. MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: Right, So, right. we slip a somebody's

even if

half an hour, hand to get it

we should be able to put it down there. Okay, great.

JOSH BATKIN:

MALE PARTICIPANT: JOSH BATKIN: I if think we Yes, have

Does he have -he physically a second one has his in our one, yes,

you wanted

to cannibalize might have

that to,

free.

Otherwise,
--

you

depending on the level

MALE PARTICIPANT: and make a new one. JOSH BATKIN: All

We will bite the bullet

right.

Sorry

about

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447 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 minutes encourage MALE PARTICIPANT: him to call in, And, too, Josh, if you can, I mean,

because, the book.

there's only so much we can put in JOSH BATKIN: Oh,

absolutely. Yes, if

Absolutely. he could call

MALE PARTICIPANT: us, you know,

whenever he's ready -BATKIN: Okay. Is the 5 or 10 in

JOSH

or so on the phone enough,

do you

think,

the morning? MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: (Laughter.) JOSH


I'll actually --

Ask me in Yes.

the morning.

11
12 13
14

BATKIN:

Okay.

All

right.

Well,

15 16 17 18 19 20 .21 22 23 24 2 sign.

MALE my perspective, the first time

PARTICIPANT: this I've is my

I'll

tell,

Josh,

from is not

fourth shift in where

and this are

come

things

radically different from when I left 16 hours earlier. JOSH BATKIN: Yes. I count that as a good

MALE PARTICIPANT:

JOSH BATKIN:

Yes. But, hopefully, I will

MALE PARTICIPANT: be able to say that again in JOSH BATKIN:

eight hours. It's not that great of

Yes.

NEAL R. GROSS
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

448 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2 that's have on it, MALE PARTICIPANT: JOSH always on. MALE PARTICIPANT: JOSH BATKIN: did he give any So, Okay. my other question was, on a high threshold to BATKIN: Yes, that's the number BlackBerry, a sign when some folks are saying things were better, but anyway. MALE just PARTICIPANT: so that when we Can we have your

send the messenger

down with the book, we can connect with you? JOSH BATKIN: Yes. Can you have my

BlackBerry phone number? MALE PARTICIPANT: JOSH personal cell. MALE PARTICIPANT: JOSH BATKIN: Oh, okay. the ringer I always BATKIN: Yes. Oh, yes, just use my

That's

instructions

reach out to him overnight? MALE PARTICIPANT: No. He and I talked

about that just the last phone call we had. JOSH BATKIN: Okay. And I said, "If we need

MALE PARTICIPANT: you, we'll call you." But,

I mean, he was pretty much

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449 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 announcement saying, needed you know, to do and is he was empowering to make sure us to do what we a very high

that was

threshold,

the way I took his remarks. JOSH BATKIN: MALE Good. Great. Don't wake him up

PARTICIPANT:

unless we have to. JOSH BATKIN: And, is for Thank you. instance, That's great. if that not, next

made overnight,

that is

I think,

a reason to call him. MALE PARTICIPANT: Yes. Right. Yes, that's Okay. You mean the

President's decision? JOSH

BATKIN:

something there's no action for us on that. MALE PARTICIPANT: JOSH BATKIN: So, I Right, think right. he's sat through

what we sat through. the morning.

I think he can learn that in

MALE PARTICIPANT: JOSH BATKIN:

Yes. there's any incidents you know. Yes, I You know.

But if

at the plant or anything, well, MALE PARTICIPANT: and I said I'd try not call from Admiral Donald, (Laughter.) NEAL R.GROSS

joked with him a phone

to wake him up with

after late last night.

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450 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 a call this? JOSH BATKIN: Yes, exactly. I know, I got

from him at like 6:30. Shall we all him at home?" (Laughter.) They said,

They're like,

"What's

I'm like, why?

"Admiral Donald is".. He's like, I said, "No,

I said,

"Put him on the bridge." already on the bridge." wake him up." Okay.

the Deputy's Well, then,

"Okay.

9
1 11

I think that's

--

MALE PARTICIPANT: your night shift covered. JOSH BATKIN: MALE too. JOSH BATKIN: that Oh,
--

All right.

We've got

12
13 1 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

all I had. You get

Okay, some

great. sleep,

PARTICIPANT:

that was my other point,

someone delivered the book to him tonight while the meeting, like 15 or 20 minutes So, the into the thank you folks who

he was in meeting, to --

and he used that information. know, If it again, thank you to

you it. on

updated working

you can pass onto the folks tonight that that

that are the

document,

information

that they're providing to the Chairman is

going for his use at the highest levels of government, so it is an important and vital and appreciated

product. NEAL R.GROSS


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451 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 NEAL R.GROSS


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MALE PARTICIPANT: night shift. (Laughter.) JOSH BATKIN: Well,

We invented it

here on

there you go. Remember that.

MALE PARTICIPANT: JOSH BATKIN: So, appreciation on it. MALE PARTICIPANT: yes,

A night shift product.

I mean please do pass along the going to be working

to everybody who is

It's

this

crew

that

invented the whole concept of the (inaudible, "go book" or "gold book"). JOSH BATKIN: Great.

possibly

That's great.

All right, good luck. MALE PARTICIPANT: tomorrow, All right. Talk to you

and-have a good night's sleep. JOSH BATKIN: Bye. You, too. Thanks.

452

1
2 3 4 5MALE 6 7 Ops Officer.

(CONFERENCE CALL INITIATED) MALE PARTICIPANT: This is Headquarters

Chuck Casto coming up on the bridge. CHUCK CASTO: This is Chuck Casto. Chuck. You have

PARTICIPANT:

Hey,

Marty and Dan and Chris CHUCK CASTO;

(inaudible). Hey, guys. Hi, Chuck.

8 9
10 1

MALE PARTICIPANT: MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK get a hold of me. MALE though. CHUCK CASTO: number right. that was trying Okay. to CASTO: I

Good morning. think somebody tried to

I don't know what the message is. PARTICIPANT: Okay. It wasn't us,

12
13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Ministry of

It

was the Ops Center me, but that's all

call was.

I don't know what it

Hey, we just left, Marty, Defense. We were

we just left with

the the

talking

Minister and the Joint Chief and all their staff.

2 NEAL R.GROSS
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I
z

5 6
71

8 9

10
ii1 121 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24

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454
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 1 13 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 2 rc And by the way, I'm headed trom the

K>

Ministry of Defense over to somewhere to meet with the Ambassador.

NEAL R.GROSS
COURT REPORTERS AND TRANSCRIBERS 1323 RHODE ISLAND AVE., N.W.

455

2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 2 21 22 23 24 25 actions other And I think that's about it. CHRIS MILLER: Chuck, it's Miller. they're taking It some MALE PARTICIPANT: would be helpful, I And that sounds great. if they're planning

think,

sort of action to like provide additional water it would be really helpful if we understood in those

supplies,

really the ground truth on radiation areas? CHUCK CASTO: Yes.

levels

Right.

And

they and

promised to share their radiation results with us, we're with flying DOE, over now. get There's that flyovers

happening They

and

we'll

information.

promised to get us their wanted our

information.

But they also

K>

Do you get the sense that to clear the site,

so when the pumps and the that they will be

(inaudible) equipment come in, there? that And is when

able to get in about fuel, so

somebody doing something the pumps there,

they get

they've got fuel to run the pumps? NEAL R.GROSS


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456 CHUCK CASTO: 2 3


--

The only thing that they're sense they're doing any of

no,

don't

get

the

that.

You know, and

they're putting all

their efforts on the crowd

helicopters, hose,

they are going to put in I

the crowd sprayer thing. you know, the riot


--

forget what that's

6
7 8 9 1 1 12 13 1 1 16 17 18 19

called,

MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: that, Yes,

Riot control, yes. I

yes. beyond

mean,

they're not doing much at all for any kind of a

long-term solution. Finally -and I'm about to go into a as get team out

meeting with the Ambassador -soon as we can get together

but, the

finally, Marty, team, we can

everybody assembled, meeting. resources help; can't in tell in And,

we're going to have a little we're going to figure

then,

for our team as far as, what areas? you what getting a

you know, is

do we need just
--

Because everybody great group of

people

you've

assembled

things done.

21
22 23 24 25 Nevertheless, there's still just a few of

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457 1 2 3 us, and we're spread thin. And the Japanese, when

they have a meeting,

they want everybody. Yes, yes.

MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO: Okay,

4 5 6
7 meeting.

I've got to go. All right. to go into this

MALE PARTICIPANT: CHUCK CASTO:

I've got

8 9
about what

MALE PARTICIPANT:

All right.

Well,

think

skill sets and numbers of people you need.

Let us know. 11. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 soon. MALE PARTICIPANT: All right. CHUCK CASTO: Okay. I'll talk to you

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