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UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
OCCUPATIONAL SAFETY AND HEALTH ADMINISTRATION

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- - In Re:

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THE SALVATION ARMY:

INSPECTION
NO. 911177

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- - -

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TUESDAY, AUGUST 6, 2013
- - -

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Oral deposition of RALPH

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POMPONI, taken pursuant to notice at Marshall,

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Dennehey, Warner, Coleman & Goggin, 2000 Market

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Street, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, commencing at

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9:00 a.m., on the above date, before Michelle M.

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Tate, a Court Reporter and a Notary Public of the

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Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.

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DelCASALE, CASEY, MARTIN & MANCHELLO
REGISTERED PROFESSIONAL REPORTERS

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230 SOUTH BROAD STREET - SUITE 605
PHILADELPHIA, PA 19102

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(215) 568-2211

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Ralph Pomponi

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APPEARANCES:
UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF LABOR
BY: MICHAEL P. DOYLE, ESQUIRE

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170 South Independence Mall West
Suite 630E

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The Curtis Center
Philadelphia, PA

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19106

215-861-5139
doyle.michael@dol.gov

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Counsel for the United States Government
MARSHALL, DENNEHEY, WARNER,
COLEMAN & GOGGIN

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BY: ERIC A. WEISS, ESQUIRE
DAVID S. WOLF, ESQUIRE

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2000 Market Street
Philadelphia, PA

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19103

215-575-2676
215-575-3577

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eaweiss@mdwcg.com
dswolf@mdwcg.com

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Counsel for The Salvation Army
ALSO PRESENT:
OCCUPATIONAL SAFETY AND HEALTH
ADMINISTRATION

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SARAH CARLE, Compliance Officer
US Customs House

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Room 242
2nd & Chestnut Streets

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Philadelphia, PA 19106
carle.sarah@dol.gov

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215-597-4955 ext. 239

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
(215) 568-2211

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Ralph Pomponi

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I

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WITNESS

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RALPH POMPONI

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N

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E

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X
PAGE

BY MR. DOYLE:

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E X H I B I T S

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NO.

DESCRIPTION

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Government-A

List of Employees

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Government-B

Handbook Page

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Government-C

Photograph

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Government-D

Photograph

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Government-E

Photograph

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Government-F

Photograph

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Government-G

Diagram

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Government-H

Photograph

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Government-I

Photograph

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Government-J

Photograph

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Government-K

Photograph

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DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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Ralph Pomponi

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- - - - -

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RALPH POMPONI, after having

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been first duly sworn, was examined and

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testified as follows:

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- - - - -

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BY MR. DOYLE:

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Q.

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the record and spell your last name?

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A.

It's Ralph Pomponi, P-O-M-P-O-N-I.

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Q.

Mr. Pomponi, my name is Michael Doyle.

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the attorney with the United States Department of

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Labor.

Sir, would you please state your name for

I'm

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We're here today to have you answer

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questions under oath with regard to OSHA Inspection

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911 711 pursuant to the Secretary of Labor's

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authority under section 8B of the Occupation Safety

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and Health Act.

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Have you ever testified under oath

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before?

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A.

No.

21

Q.

You've never been deposed or testified at a

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trial?

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A.

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lawsuit or something, yes.

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3
4

Oh, at a trial, several years ago, civil

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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Ralph Pomponi

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1

Q.

You were a witness at that trial?

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A.

Not a witness.

3

Q.

You were a juror member.

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Okay.

I was a juror.

Let me just explain to you

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how this will work today.

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here.

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questions and your answers will be recorded by the

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court reporter.

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the day what we hope to have is a clean record of

We have a court reporter

I will be asking you questions.

My

And it's important at the end of

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our discussion.

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first thing I will ask is you have to give a yes or

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no answer or a verbal answer rather than a nod of

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the head or shake of the head.

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So, in order to have that the

Okay?

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A.

Okay.

16

Q.

Also, if you don't understand any of my

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questions, just say so and I'll try to ask a more

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clear question.

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Okay?

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A.

Yes.

21

Q.

The other thing is, please wait for my

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question to be done and then give your answer.

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I'll do my best to wait for you to give a full and

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complete answer before I ask the next question.

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DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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And

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Ralph Pomponi

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A.

Yes.

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Q.

Okay.

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reason, just let me know.

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If you need to take a break for any

Okay?

5

A.

Yes.

6

Q.

Before we begin, is there any reason you

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would not be able to answer my questions today

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fully and truthfully?

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A.

No.

10

Q.

You're not sick at all?

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A.

No.

12

Q.

You're not on any medications that would

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affect your judgment?

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A.

No.

15

Q.

Okay.

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employer?

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A.

Salvation Army.

18

Q.

What is your current job title?

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A.

Store supervisor.

20

Q.

Where is your duty station?

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A.

Roxborough in Philadelphia.

22

Q.

What is the name of the store that you

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supervise?

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A.

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3
4

Mr. Pomponi, who is your current

Well, I supervise nine stores.

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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Ralph Pomponi

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Q.

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Rehabilitation Center?

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A.

Yes, that's correct, yes.

4

Q.

Okay.

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supervisor taken to a management level position?

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It's a management level position?

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A.

Yes.

8

Q.

Are you paid by salary or by the hour?

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A.

Salary.

10

Q.

What is the address of the Philadelphia

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Adult Rehabilitation Center?

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A.

4555 Pechin Street.

13

Q.

How long have you been employed by the

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Salvation Army?

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A.

17 years.

16

Q.

Prior to becoming the store manager, what

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position

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manager?

Okay.

Your duty station, is that the Adult

Is your position as a store

-- well, how long have you been store

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MR. WEISS:

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Store supervisor.

- - - - -

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BY MR. DOYLE:

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Q.

I'm sorry, store supervisor.

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A.

17 years.

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Q.

So, the entire 17 years you've held the

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DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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Ralph Pomponi

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same position?

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A.

Correct.

3

Q.

Where did you work prior to the 17 years at

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the Salvation Army?

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A.

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Thrift, which was another similar type of

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business.

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profit not for nonprofit.

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five years.

Well, I worked for a company called Village

It was a thrift business, but it was for
And I worked there for

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Q.

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Army, have you always been at the Adult

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Rehabilitation Center?

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A.

Yes.

14

Q.

Tell me about your duties as store

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supervisor.

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A.

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deal with primarily all the personnel issues.

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Like, in other words, if there's an issue with

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personnel, I'll get the call and I'll try to give

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counseling or direction how to handle it.

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Q.

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issue that you would deal with?

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A.

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with an employee, if they were missing time or so

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4

During your 17 years with the Salvation

Well, I'm responsible for the sales.

And I

What would be an example of a personnel

Well, if there was documentation involved

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forth, how to write those warnings.

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Q.

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firing of personnel?

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A.

Yes, well management.

5

Q.

How does instruction work?

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that you supervise nine stores?

7

A.

Correct.

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Q.

Where are those geographically?

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those located?

Okay.

Are you involved in the hiring and

You testified

Where are

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A.

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Reading.

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However, that was damaged due to Sandy.

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currently closed, but we're hoping to reopen it.

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Q.

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of these?

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A.

Family stories.

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Q.

Family stores.

Well, the one furthest north is in
The one furthest south is Atlantic City.
So, that's

What's the proper official title for each
I take that they're --

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What is sold at these family

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stores?

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A.

Well, clothing, furniture, household items.

21

Q.

Obviously, we're here today to talk about

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the building collapse at 22nd and Market Street.

23

A.

Yes.

24

Q.

There was a Salvation Army Family Store

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DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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Ralph Pomponi

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located at the corner of 22nd and Market?

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A.

Correct.

3

Q.

Is that one of the nine stores that you

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supervised?

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A.

Yes.

6

Q.

How long have you supervised that store?

7

A.

17 years.

8

Q.

In carrying out your job functions, do you

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visit these stores periodically?

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A.

Yes.

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Q.

How often?

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A.

Well, I try to, try to get to all of them

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on a weekly basis, but depending on the problems or

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situations, that doesn't happen all the time.

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There may be more issues at one store.

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don't get to all of them in a weeks time, no.

17

Q.

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personnel at the 22nd and Market Street store?

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A.

Yes.

20

Q.

Who are the management people that you

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hired?

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A.

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Stasiorowski.

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3
4

Okay.

So, maybe I

Did you hire the management

It was Margarita Agosto, Richard

MR. WEISS:

If you hold on a

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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Ralph Pomponi

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second, I'll give you the spellings.

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MR. DOYLE:

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We'll mark this as Government

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I can do that.

Exhibit-A.

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- - - - -

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(Whereupon, the Document was

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marked as Exhibit Government Exhibit-A for

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identification by the court reporter.)

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- - - - -

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BY MR. DOYLE:

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Q.

Take a look at this document.

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A.

(Whereupon, the witness complies with the

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request.)

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MR. WEISS:

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That was a two-page

document when submitted, I believe.

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MR. DOYLE:

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Well, this page will

suffice what we need.

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- - - - -

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BY MR. DOYLE:

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Q.

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the --

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A.

Employees.

23

Q.

-- employees?

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A.

(Whereupon, the witness is indicating

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3
4

So, Government Exhibit-A is a list of

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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Ralph Pomponi

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affirmatively.)

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Q.

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employees of?

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A.

Salvation Army.

5

Q.

They're at the 22nd and Market Street

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store?

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A.

Yes.

8

Q.

Okay.

9

involved in the hiring of Margarita Agosto and

Where are these employees?

What are they

And you testified that you were

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Richard Stasiorowski?

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A.

Well, I promoted her.

12

Q.

I'm sorry?

13

A.

I promoted her.

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employee.

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manager at the time, she was hired and promoted to

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a store manager.

17

Q.

What was Richard Stasiorowski's position?

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A.

He was a key person or assistant manager.

19

Q.

Okay.

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A.

That's correct.

21

Q.

Richard Stasiorowski was the assistant

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store manager?

23

A.

Yes.

24

Q.

Is that a common management structure for

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3
4

She was a regular

And based on information from her

So, Margarita was the store manager?

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the thrift stores that you manage?

2

A.

Yes.

3

Q.

Okay.

4

involved in the hiring of the management?

5

A.

Yes.

6

Q.

Okay.

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employees?

8

A.

No.

9

Q.

Well, how would they go about being hired?

10

A.

Well, they would apply at the store.

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However, at the program when a person finishes the

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program at the ARC, they're eligible for

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employment.

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they're approved through headquarters to work for

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us.

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to a store as needed when we need people.

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basically the manager hires her staff first, he or

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she for the stores.

19

Q.

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program are you referring to?

21

A.

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people come there to help them with their

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addictions.

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2
3
4

And it's your testimony that you're

What about the nonmanagement

It has to go through a process where

So, I do an interview with them and send them

Okay.

You mentioned a program.

But

What

Well, it's a rehabilitation center.

MR. WEISS:

So,

Why would these people

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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Ralph Pomponi

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go to the center --

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THE WITNESS:

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MR. DOYLE:

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To recover.
I got it.

- - - - -

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BY MR. DOYLE:

6

Q.

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store manager at 22nd and Market?

8

A.

Not offhand.

9

Q.

Okay.

Do you know when Margarita Agosto became a

I'd have to look at that.

But you believe you were involved in

10

hiring her?

11

A.

Yes.

12

Q.

In terms of your job, your chain of

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command --

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15

MR. WEISS:

He said he promoted

her.

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THE WITNESS:

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MR. WEISS:

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19

her.

I promoted her, yes.
He didn't say he hired

I don't know if he did or not.
THE WITNESS:

I didn't, no.

She

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wasn't part of the adult program.

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hired through another manager.

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being there for sometime, we promoted her

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to a store manager.

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2
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MR. DOYLE:

She was

And after

Got it.

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- - - - -

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BY MR. DOYLE:

3

Q.

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of command, who did they answer to?

5

A.

6

Now, they report directly to me if there's issues

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pertaining to personnel or issues as far as

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production what they need.

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person who's responsible for the inflow and outflow

These store managers, in terms of the chain

Well, it depends on the problem.

Okay.

So, we have another

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of product that goes into the stores.

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were any issues with product merchandise coming

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into the stores, either getting more of it or less

13

of it, they would contact this person.

14

Q.

Who is that person?

15

A.

That's Mark Constable.

16

Q.

Do you know how to smell Mark's last name?

17

A.

Constable.

18

Q.

Constable.

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A.

Like a constable.

20

Q.

Okay.

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employees at the store, who would be in the chain

22

of command, who would be responsible for that?

What about the safety of the

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MR. WEISS:

24

the premises, work rules?

2
3
4

So, if there

You mean in terms of
Can you define

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that a little bit?

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- - - - -

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BY MR. DOYLE:

4

Q.

5

there's an electrical problem in the store that

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might create a fire hazard.

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problem --

8

A.

9

call the administrator directly.

Let me give you an example.

Let's suppose

So, how would that

If that were the issue they would have to

10

Q.

Okay.

11

A.

Anything like that.

12

Q.

Who is the administrator?

13

A.

That's John Cranford.

14

Q.

Is that Major John Cranford?

15

A.

Yes.

16

Q.

Now, in terms of who do you report to up

17

the chain of command?

18

A.

John Cranford.

19

Q.

Okay.

20

John Cranford about in the course of your job

21

duties?

22

A.

23

making changes in the store, let's say I was going

24

to transfer somebody somewhere, I would let him

2
3
4

What types of issues would you go to

Well, again, I would always, if I was

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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Ralph Pomponi

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know first what was going on.

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employee issues that had to be dealt with, I would

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talk to him about that, let him know what was going

4

on.

5

production, that sort of thing, I would let him

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know about that.

7

Q.

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reports to?

9

A.

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If there were any

If there were any issues with product or

Okay.

Do you know who Major John Cranford

He reports to Major Dietrich and Colonel

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Reigns.

11

Q.

12

visit these --

13

A.

Yes.

14

Q.

-- stores?

Now, you testified earlier periodically you

15

Are there any other ways that you

16

manage the personnel, the management-level people

17

at these stores in terms of meetings and so forth?

18

A.

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meeting.

20

happen all the time either.

21

Q.

Where do the manager meetings take place?

22

A.

At Roxborough.

23

Q.

Who is invited to these meetings?

24

A.

All the store managers and myself, Mark

2
3
4

Well, yeah.

We'll have a manager's

We try to once a month, but that doesn't

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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Constable and the Major will be there also.

2

Q.

Major?

3

A.

Cranford.

4

Q.

And is this limited to the nine stores that

5

you manage?

6

A.

Yes.

7

Q.

Are there any other besides the nine that

8

you manage, are there other stores?

9

you have these thrift stores and thrift stores

I take it that

10

answer to the Adult Rehabilitation Center.

11

the way it works?

12

A.

I'm not sure --

13

Q.

I take it there's more than nine thrift

14

stores throughout the country?

15

A.

16

district.

17

Q.

Your district?

18

A.

Yes.

19

Q.

Is your district called something or is

20

it --

21

A.

Philadelphia ARC.

22

Q.

Okay.

23

managers for all nine stores are invited to these

24

meetings?

2
3
4

Is that

That's a bad way to answer to?

Oh, absolutely, yes.

This is just our

So, these manager meetings, the

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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1

A.

Yes.

2

Q.

How about the assistant managers?

3

A.

No.

4

Q.

So, it's just people at Margarita's level?

5

A.

Yes.

6

MR. WEISS:

7

Let him finish his

question.

8

THE WITNESS:

9

MR. WEISS:

He did tell me that.
You were asking him

10

about ways he manages the stores, he

11

described the meetings.

12

speaking with him that he makes weekly

13

phone calls.

14

THE WITNESS:

15

I know also from

Oh, yes, right.

- - - - -

16

BY MR. DOYLE:

17

Q.

18

the phone calls?

19

A.

20

gets what's called a running total.

21

know how much money they've made the previous week

22

and we compare it with what they did the previous

23

week the year before.

24

how well they're doing financially.

2
3
4

Tell us about that.

What's the purpose of

Well, I call the stories on Monday so we
We want to

So, we have an idea as to
So, if they're

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not doing well it gives us a guide, it gives us

2

something to work with and we can find out based on

3

a visit, let's say, to check out and see maybe why

4

their sales are down prior if you were comparing it

5

the year before.

6

Q.

Okay.

7

MR. WEISS:

And describe the other

8

discussions about what's going on in the

9

store when you call them?

10

THE WITNESS:

Yes, I'll ask them

11

basically what's going on.

12

any problems, any issues.

13

any, we'll discuss it.

14

something like a personnel issue where I

15

have to go up there and work with the

16

manager and help he or she how to deal with

17

that then that's what I do.

18

out and will visit for that.

19

If there are
And if there are

And if it's

Then I'll go

- - - - -

20

BY MR. DOYLE:

21

Q.

22

through the entire store?

23

A.

Yes.

24

Q.

What is your purpose in doing that?

2
3
4

When you go out for a visit do you walk

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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1

A.

2

checking the departments to make sure that they're

3

adequately full with merchandise.

4

there's new merchandise on the floor, that there

5

isn't old merchandise still there.

6

nature.

7

Q.

8

condition of the store at 22nd and Market Street

9

prior to the collapse?

Well, I'm looking at the departments.

I'm

Make sure that

Things of that

How would you describe the physical

Let's just say, the

10

questions I'm going to ask you unless I say

11

otherwise, let's assume I'm just asking about the

12

2013.

13

collapse, just that time frame as a frame of

14

reference.

15

condition of the 22nd and Market Street store?

16

A.

17

no issues other than a leak here and there or an

18

air-conditioning not working properly or door or

19

something.

20

ordinary, no.

21

Q.

22

be reported to?

23

A.

24

would be reported to maintenance.

2
3
4

So, from January 2013 until the building

How would you describe the physical

It's an old building.

There weren't really

I don't recall anything out of the

Okay.

What about a leaky roof, would that

That wouldn't be reported to me.

That

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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1

Q.

Is that Mark Constable?

2

A.

No, that's Chad Cox.

3

there were any issues with maintenance, whether it

4

be lights out, doors not working properly, anything

5

of that nature, the policy was fill out a form,

6

send it in and if you don't hear anything within a

7

reasonable time, call Mark Constable, he would also

8

go to the administrator.

9

reasonable time nothing was heard from again then

In other words, if

And if within a

10

they were to call the administrator directly.

11

Q.

Mark Constable, what's his duty station?

12

A.

His duty, he deals primarily with the

13

inflow and outflow of goods, the trucks, the

14

drivers, the sorting area will be processed to

15

clothing, all production end of it.

16

Q.

Where is his main office at?

17

A.

It's in Roxborough.

18

Q.

At the Adult Rehabilitation Center?

19

A.

Yes, that's correct.

20

Q.

Okay.

21

A.

It's there also.

22

Q.

He is also at the Adult Rehabilitation

23

Center?

24

A.

2
3
4

How about Chad Cox?

Yes.

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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Ralph Pomponi

1

Q.

2

the process, but if you're walking around the store

3

and you see a problem related to the physical

4

condition, would you do anything about it?

5

A.

6

form?

7

Q.

Okay.

8

A.

Did you send it in and that's what I tell

9

them.

I understand what you testified to as to

My first question is did you fill out a

10

Q.

11

question like that of Margarita?

12

A.

No.

13

Q.

So, you didn't see any problems with the

14

physical plant of the store that would cause --

15

A.

16

communicate it, no.

17

Q.

Okay.

18

A.

I wasn't aware of it.

19

Q.

Okay.

20

A.

Okay.

21
22
23
24

2
3
4

Did you ever have occasion in 2013 to ask a

Unless they send out the forms or they

I'm going to show you this.

MR. BOYLE:

We'll mark this as

Government Exhibit-B, as in boy.
- - - - (Whereupon, the Document was

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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1

Ralph Pomponi

24

1

marked as Government Exhibit-B for

2

identification by the court reporter.)

3

- - - - -

4

MR. WEISS:

Wait one second,

6

MR. DOYLE:

Sure.

7

MR. WEISS:

Just so you know, down

5

please.

8

here that's a bates number.

9

documents to Salvation Army we number them.

10

THE WITNESS:

11

MR. WEISS:

12

When I produce

Okay.
That's what that is,

but go ahead now.

13

- - - - -

14

BY MR. DOYLE:

15

Q.

16

know what this document is that we're looking at?

17

A.

It's part of the handbook.

18

Q.

Tell me what the handbook is.

19

A.

Well, it's a book that we give to the

20

employees so they know, first of all, the mission

21

of the Salvation Army and secondly the rules and

22

regulations of what they can and can't do.

23

the policies are.

24

Q.

2
3
4

So, the question is first of all, do you

What

In terms of safety-related issues, does

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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Ralph Pomponi

1

Salvation Army have a written safety program?

2

A.

3

as that.

4

Q.

5

hazards, any sorts of hazards that could present

6

themselves at a retail facility in terms of safety

7

of the employees, are there any written rules that

8

the Salvation Army has that --

9

A.

Well --

10

Q.

Let me finish the question.

25

I'm not sure what your question is as far

Okay.

11

I referred earlier to electrical

-- Has to address those kind of

12

concerns?

13

A.

I'm not sure of your --

14

Q.

Okay.

As far as written.

15

MR. WEISS:

16

THE WITNESS:

17

MR. WEISS:

18

I mean this?

That's in writing.
That's in writing.
Referring it as B,

Government Exhibit-B.

19

- - - - -

20

BY MR. DOYLE:

21

Q.

22

other place I would look to if I wanted to know

23

what written policies Salvation Army has for the

24

benefit of its employees?

2
3
4

Besides Government Exhibit-B, is there any

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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26

1

A.

2

handbook, what would be in that handbook, yes.

3

Q.

4

housekeeping, is that the statement of the

5

Salvation Army safety policy?

6

A.

Yes.

7

Q.

And I'm reading from Government Exhibit-B

8

under housekeeping, "safety hazards should be

9

reported immediately to the supervisor."

I'm not aware.

I'm only aware of the

Is this page -- I take it under the heading

Did I

10

read that correctly?

11

A.

Yes.

12

Q.

Okay.

13

this --

14

A.

Relating to that would be John Cranford.

15

Q.

Okay.

16

this sentence would be the administrator?

17

A.

Yes.

18

Q.

Okay.

19

A.

Would handle anything like that.

20

Q.

How does someone in Margarita Agosto's

21

position know that she is supposed to report

22

safety-related issues to Major Cranford?

23

A.

We've had meetings.

24

Q.

Tell me about those meetings.

2
3
4

So, who would be a supervisor in

So, you're saying the supervisor in

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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27

1

A.

2

up from time to time, whether they're production

3

issues, whether they're personnel issues, which

4

would be me.

5

pertaining to the buildings, they would be

6

addressed at those meetings or discussed.

7

words, how to handle that.

8

Q.

9

you tell me whether you agree with the paragraph

10

whether it's an accurate reflection of Salvation

11

Army's policy.

12

"Salvation Army Employee Manual states safety

13

hazards should be reported immediately to the

14

supervisor, reports are made verbally and/or in

15

writing to the store manager.

16

puts in the request to the maintenance

17

department --

18

A.

Yes.

19

Q.

-- at the Philadelphia Adult Rehabilitation

20

Center with a copy to the administrator."

21

do you agree with that?

22

A.

Yes.

23

Q.

I'll continue reading.

24

emergency, the administrator is called

2
3
4

Well, we've gone over any issues that come

Okay.

And if there were any other issues

In other

Let me read to you a paragraph and

And the paragraph states,

The store manager

So far

"If it's an

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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1

immediately.

2

discussed at the weekly manager's meeting."

3

do you agree with that?

4

A.

Yes.

5

Q.

Okay.

6

immediate decision is made as to whether the matter

7

can be handled by the Salvation Army maintenance

8

department or by an outside contractor or company.

9

The resolution is then communicated to the store

If it's not an emergency it's
So far

"Depending upon the issue an

10

manager who shares the information with the

11

employees."

12

A.

Yes.

13

Q.

Okay.

14

a store manager know that this is the policy

15

because this is a bit different from what's stated

16

in Government Exhibit-B.

17

say.

18

manager that this is the process?

19

A.

20

meeting.

21

Q.

22

was communicated to Margarita Agosto?

23

A.

24

2
3
4

Do you agree with that?

So, I guess my question is how does

It's an elaboration, lets

So, how is that communicated to the store

That would have been communicated at a

Do you recall being at a meeting where it

I can't recall.
MR. WEISS:

Specifically one way or

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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1

29

the other?

2

THE WITNESS:

3

Yeah, she would have

known that.

4

- - - - -

5

BY MR. DOYLE:

6

Q.

Why do you say she would have know that?

7

A.

Well, if she attended the meetings and paid

8

attention, she would have know that.

9

reinforced too in discussions if they have an

And it's

10

issue.

11

calls, to send those things in if there's any

12

issue.

13

Q.

14

Margarita's position when they first start the job,

15

are they given any kind of training as to how to be

16

a store manager?

17

A.

18

to help them.

19

situation she was already an employee.

20

knew how to do certain parts of the position of the

21

job just by being an employee and working there.

22

The part she had to learn and was trained with was

23

with the store manager who trained her how to do

24

the technical things, running the registers, doing

2
3
4

They're always directed to make those phone

As a store manager, does someone in

Well, I worked with them, you know, and try
First of all, in Margarita's
So, she

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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30

1

voids, doing cash register issues, things like

2

that.

3

she worked with me directly and how to deal with

4

other issues that may come up.

5

Q.

6

OSHA-related training?

7

A.

No.

8

Q.

So, you never received, for example, a OSHA

9

ten-hour training course?

So that once she became a store manager then

Okay.

Have you ever received any type of

10

A.

No.

11

Q.

Have you received any type of workplace

12

safety training at all?

13

A.

No.

14

Q.

Do you know what are the responsibilities

15

of the store manager someone like Margarita Agosto

16

if there is a work-related injury that results in

17

lost time at --

18

A.

19

would contact Jim Heitzenroder.

20

spelling either.

21

Q.

22

pronounce again his last name.

23

A.

24

2
3
4

Oh, if there's a work-related injury, they
I don't know the

You don't know the spelling?

Well,

Heitzenroder.
MR. WOLF:

It's

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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Ralph Pomponi

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31

H-E-I-T-Z-E-N-R-O-D-E-R.

2

THE WITNESS:

3

MR. DOYLE:

4

I think it's German.
I would agree with

that.

5

- - - - -

6

BY MR. DOYLE:

7

Q.

I'm sorry, I interrupted.

8

A.

That's okay.

9

person was injured or if an employee was injured,

So, they would call -- if a

10

they would contact him.

11

injured, they would write a report and they would

12

send it in.

13

our insurance company and handle that.

14

Well, if a customer was

And then he would then in turn contact

Now, if it were an employee who was

15

injured then they would have paperwork that they

16

would call him that he would put together, call the

17

insurance company and they would go from there.

18

Q.

Have you ever heard of an OSHA 300 Form?

19

A.

No.

20

Q.

Do you know Jim Heitzenroder's job title?

21

A.

Well, he does payroll.

22

clerk.

23

Q.

And where is his duty station?

24

A.

Roxborough.

2
3
4

He's the payroll

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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Ralph Pomponi
Q.

32

Let me show you a few photographs here.

2

- - - - -

3

(Whereupon, the Document was

4

marked as Government Exhibit-C for

5

identification by the court reporter.)

6

- - - - -

7

BY MR. DOYLE:

8

Q.

9

Charley.

I'm handing you Government Exhibit-C, as in
Do you recognize what that picture is

10

depicting?

11

A.

Looks like a leak.

12

Q.

Do you know where the photograph is?

13

A.

Yeah.

14

Q.

Where is this?

15

A.

It's going downstairs to the basement area.

16

Q.

So, we're looking at a photograph of what?

17

A.

It looks like there's water there.

18

really can't tell.

19

Q.

20

the Salvation Army Thrift Store at 22nd and Market?

21

A.

Is it, yeah, it is the Salvation Army.

22

Q.

It's the interior of the building at 22nd

23

and Market?

24

A.

2
3
4

Okay.

I

Does this look like the interior of

Well, yes, it's it.

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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Ralph Pomponi

33

1

Q.

2

be a stairway going into the basement?

3

A.

It's a stairway going down, yes.

4

Q.

Do you recognize what looks like staining

5

on the walls?

Okay.

You testified that that appears to

6

MR. WEISS:

7

Wait a minute.

You

gave me a different picture.

8

MR. DOYLE:

They're not the same

10

MR. WEISS:

No, not at all.

11

MR. DOYLE:

Sorry about that.

9

picture?

12

I

don't have another one.

13

MR. WEISS:

It's all right.

14

MR. WEISS:

Just bear with me one

15

second.

16

correct?

17

calling it C and it appears to be --

18

So, this was the one that's C,
Is that what you said?

THE WITNESS:

19

He's

It looks like dirt or

something on there.

20

- - - - -

21

BY MR. DOYLE:

22

Q.

23

staining on the wall in Government Exhibit-C?

24

A.

2
3
4

I guess my question is do you recognize the

I don't know what that is.

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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1

Ralph Pomponi
Q.

34

Does it look familiar?

2

MR. WEISS:

What he's asking you,

3

when you were there before this incident,

4

did you notice that?

5

THE WITNESS:

6

MR. WEISS:

No.
Is that a fair

7

statement of what you really wanted to ask

8

him?

9

MR. DOYLE:

10

Thank you.

- - - - -

11

BY MR. DOYLE:

12

Q.

13

out to you beforehand?

14

A.

I don't recall right now.

15

Q.

Did any of the employees --

16

A.

I know that there was the one picture that

17

there was some loose plaster, but that's --

18
19
20
21

Did any of the employees ever point that

MR. DOYLE:

We'll mark that as

Government Exhibit-D, as in David.
- - - - (Whereupon, the Document was

22

marked as Government Exhibit-D for

23

identification by the court reporter.)

24

- - - - -

2
3
4

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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Ralph Pomponi

1

BY MR. DOYLE:

2

Q.

3

building prior to --

4

A.

Yes.

5

Q.

You pointed to Government Exhibit-D, as in

6

David, and said that there was some loose plaster?

7

A.

Yeah.

8

Q.

And is that going into the stairwell?

9

A.

Yes.

10

Q.

Did any of the employees ever say anything

11

to you about that condition or say, hey, we need to

12

get this fixed?

13

A.

14

something to the administrator to have it checked

15

out.

16

attempts to fix it, I'm not sure at this point, but

17

it was reported that there were some plaster on

18

that wall.

19

Q.

Do you know when that was reported?

20

A.

I'm not sure.

21

Q.

Was it in 2013?

22

A.

Yes.

23

Q.

Do you know who it was reported to?

24

A.

Again, it would have been directed towards

2
3
4

I'm just trying to get a sense of the

Well, again they would have to send

Now, was that fixed or were there any

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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35

1

Ralph Pomponi

1

the administrator.

2

wasn't done within a timely basis then they may

3

have said something to find out what was going on.

4

So, I did mention that to the administrator that

5

there was plaster on the wall.

6

Q.

7

the administrator?

8

A.

9

don't recall.

36

Now, if for some reason it

Do you remember when you mentioned that to

It was this year, but it was months ago.

10

Q.

What was the administrator's response?

11

A.

Well, they would look into it.

12

Q.

I'll show you what I'm marking as

13

Government Exhibit-E, as in Edward.

14

- - - - -

15

(Whereupon, the Document was

16

marked as Government Exhibit-E for

17

identification by the court reporter.)

18

- - - - -

19

BY MR. DOYLE:

20

Q.

21

Government Exhibit-E?

22

A.

Looks like it's the back room.

23

Q.

I'm sorry?

24

A.

It looks like it's the back room, the

2
3
4

Do you recognize what's depicted in

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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1

Ralph Pomponi

37

1

receiving area is what it looks like, yeah.

2

Q.

3

Market Street building?

4

A.

Yes.

5

Q.

And do you see up top it looks like there's

6

panels missing?

7

A.

Yes.

8

Q.

Do you know how long that condition existed

9

at the building?

10

A.

Is that the receiving area at the 22nd and

Can you be more specific?

11

MR. WEISS:

12

the panels were missing?

13

THE WITNESS:

14

Yes.

- - - - -

15

BY MR. DOYLE:

16

Q.

Were they missing throughout all of 2013?

17
18

Do you know how long

MR. WEISS:
A.

If you know?

I don't recall, no.

19

- - - - -

20

BY MR. DOYLE:

21

Q.

22

while you visited the store in 2013?

23

A.

I don't remember seeing this like this, no.

24

Q.

Did you have occasion to go back into this

2
3
4

Do you recall seeing this condition at all

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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Ralph Pomponi

1

receiving area?

2

A.

I have to go through the receiving area.

3

MR. WEISS:

4

38

He usually goes in the

back door.

5

THE WITNESS:

Right.

In other

6

words, I try to park in the back because

7

you can't move there.

8

I'll call them ahead of time and they make

9

sure there's nothing blocking the back so I

So, what I'll do is

10

can pull right up and I jump out and go

11

in.

12

- - - - -

13

BY MR. DOYLE:

14

Q.

Is that Ludlow Street?

15

A.

Yes.

16

Q.

So, you park on Ludlow Street?

17

A.

Right behind the building yeah.

18

Q.

And you enter through the back?

19

A.

Yes.

20

Q.

And that takes you into the receiving area?

21

A.

Again, I don't recall how long that's been

22

that way, no.

23

Q.

24

Margarita or one of the employees pointing this

2
3
4

Do you recall anyone from the store,

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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Ralph Pomponi

39

1

condition out to you?

2

A.

No.

3

Q.

We'll do one more photo of the interior and

4

then we'll move to the demolition, questions about

5

the demolition.

6

- - - - -

7

(Whereupon, the Document was

8

marked as Government Exhibit-F for

9

identification by the court reporter.)

10

- - - - -

11

BY MR. DOYLE:

12

Q.

13

Frank.

14

A.

I'll hand you Government Exhibit-F, as in

Where is that?

15

MR. WEISS:

16

You tell him.

I can't

answer.

17

- - - - -

18

BY MR. DOYLE:

19

Q.

Do you recognize what this is?

20

A.

I'm trying to figure out what that is.

21

Q.

If you don't know, that's fine.

22

A.

I don't know.

23
24

2
3
4

MR. WEISS:

Can we go off the

record a second?

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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Ralph Pomponi

1

MR. DOYLE:

2

40

Sure.

- - - - -

3

(Whereupon, a discussion was

4

held off the record.)

5

- - - - -

6

BY MR. DOYLE:

7

Q.

8

anything?

9

A.

Are you doing okay.

Do you need a break or

I'll break for a few minutes.

10

MR. DOYLE:

Let's take a

11

five-minute bathroom break.

12

THE WITNESS:

13

Okay.

- - - - -

14

(Whereupon, a short break was

15

taken.)

16

- - - - -

17

MR. DOYLE:

18

Back on.

- - - - -

19

BY MR. DOYLE:

20

Q.

21

building collapse, how long had Margarita Agosto

22

been the store manager at 22nd and Market?

23

A.

24

can't guess.

2
3
4

Mr. Pomponi, how long was, prior to the

You asked me that question earlier.
I'm going to say seven months.

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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I

1

Ralph Pomponi

41

1

Q.

2

how long he had been --

3

A.

4

look it up.

5

Q.

Had it been several years?

6

A.

Oh, no, within a short period of time.

7

Q.

So, let's talk about the demolition of the

8

buildings that went on next door to the 22nd and

9

Market.

10

How about Richard Stasiorowski, do you know

I'm really not sure exactly.

I'd have to

Just for a frame of reference, I'll mark

Government Exhibit G.

11

- - - - -

12

(Whereupon, the Document was

13

marked as Government Exhibit-G for

14

identification by the court reporter.)

15

- - - - -

16

BY MR. DOYLE:

17

Q.

18

I came up with.

19

this is laid out here.

20

basically the row of buildings that we're going to

21

be talking about here on Market Street.

22

A.

Okay.

23

Q.

Does this look accurate in terms of the

24

layout of the buildings and so forth?

2
3
4

Government Exhibit-G is just a drawing that
Tell me if you agree with the way
This is a drawing of

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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1

Ralph Pomponi
A.

Yes.

2

MR. WEISS:

3

42

He has no reason to

disagree.

4

THE WITNESS:

5

I have no reason to

disagree.

6

MR. WEISS:

I'll agree with you on

7

the record that it's a fairly accurate

8

description.

9

that way.

10

I don't think he was oriented

- - - - -

11

BY MR. DOYLE:

12

Q.

13

Salvation Army property for how many years?

14

A.

17 years.

15

Q.

So, in that time, was it always your

16

practice to -- how would you get there?

17

said you would park on Ludlow Street?

18

A.

Uh-huh.

19

Q.

How would you

20

A.

Well, if I didn't park on Ludlow Street, I

21

would find a parking space and walk up.

22

Q.

23

in the neighborhood?

24

A.

2
3
4

But you've been coming to this 2140

Okay.

I know you

--

So, you would park where, anywhere

I would park maybe 23rd Street someplace if

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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Ralph Pomponi

43

1

there was a two-hour parking I would walk over,

2

especially on a nice day.

3

Q.

4

the condition of the buildings next door?

5

A.

Never, no.

6

Q.

Would you ever come down Market Street

7

toward the east?

8

A.

When you would do that, would you notice

Market Street this way?

9

MR. WEISS:

Towards City Hall.

10

He's asking you did you walk that way,

11

towards City Hall.

12

here.

13

City Hall being over

THE WITNESS:

14

When would that be?

- - - - -

15

BY MR. DOYLE:

16

Q.

Well, in the course of your 17 years?

17

A.

Yes.

18

Q.

Okay.

19

garage that's depicted in Government Exhibit-G?

20

A.

No.

21

Q.

Is there any reason you didn't park there?

22

A.

No.

23

Q.

Let me show you Government Exhibit-H.

24

2
3
4

Did you ever park at the parking

- - - - -

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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1

Ralph Pomponi

1

(Whereupon, the Document was

2

marked as Government Exhibit-H for

3

identification by the court reporter.)

4

- - - - -

5

BY MR. DOYLE:

6

Q.

7

Government Exhibit-H?

8

A.

It's three buildings.

9

Q.

So, on the far right what do we have?

10

A.

Salvation Army Thrift store.

11

Q.

Right in the middle we have the Hoagie City

12

store; is that correct?

13

A.

Yes.

14

Q.

And then to the left of the Hoagie City

15

Store we have another store, correct?

16

A.

Right.

17

Q.

I'll represent to you that the Salvation

18

Army address was 2140 Market Street.

19

A.

Yes.

20

Q.

Okay.

21

and 2136 Market Street.

Do you recognize what's being depicted in

22
23
24

2
3
4

The Hoagie City building was 2138

Okay?
A.

Yes.
MR. WEISS:

He's going to accept

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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44

1

Ralph Pomponi

1

your representation to that.

2

45

- - - - -

3

BY MR. DOYLE:

4

Q.

5

building to the left is 2134 and 2132 Market

6

Street.

The building next to the Hoagie City

7

Okay?

8

A.

Okay.

9

Q.

And then to the left, which you cannot see

10

in Government Exhibit-H there is a parking garage.

11

Okay?

12

A.

Yes.

13

Q.

So, those are the addresses that I'm

14

representing to you are the addresses for these

15

buildings.

16

A.

Okay.

17

Q.

So, do you recall, first of all, the

18

condition of the buildings as represented in

19

Government Exhibit-H?

20

A.

No.

21

Q.

You never remember a time when all of the

22

buildings were intact?

23

A.

24

looked, no.

2
3
4

I never paid attention to it.

I never

I don't know.

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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46

1

Q.

2

realized that there was demolition going on next

3

door?

4

A.

Yes.

5

Q.

Okay.

6

A.

Well, that there was work being done next

7

store.

8

Q.

Did you understand the purpose of the work?

9

A.

I don't understand the question.

10

Q.

Did you understand that the work that was

11

being done had to do with the raising of the

12

buildings?

When is the first time -- at some point you

13
14

MR. WEISS:
A.

What building?

15

MR. WEISS:

16

Are you referring to --

-- a particular

building here or --

17

- - - - -

18

BY MR. DOYLE:

19

Q.

20

example that the purpose of the work was to tear

21

down both the two buildings that have the addresses

22

at 2138, 2136, 2134 and 2132 Market Street.

23

question is, would you become aware at some point

24

that they were tearing these two buildings down?

2
3
4

Well, using Government Exhibit-H as an

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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So, my

1

Ralph Pomponi

47

1

A.

Yes.

2

Q.

Can you tell me when is the first time that

3

you came to that recognition?

4

realize that they were tearing those buildings

5

down?

6

A.

7

collapse.

It may have been weeks prior to the

8

MR. WEISS:

9

When did you first

Keep in mind that

you're lumping four different addresses

10

together.

11

MR. DOYLE:

12

Right.

- - - - -

13

BY MR. DOYLE:

14

Q.

I just want to know --

15

A.

I know that they were working inside the

16

building, they were taking debris out of that

17

because that you would hear.

18

You could see that.

- - - - -

19

(Whereupon, the Document was

20

marked as Government Exhibit-I for

21

identification by the court reporter.)

22

- - - - -

23

BY MR. DOYLE:

24

Q.

2
3
4

I'm showing you Government Exhibit-I.

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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Ralph Pomponi

1

MR. WEISS:

2

Thank you.

- - - - -

3

BY MR. DOYLE:

4

Q.

5

Government Exhibit-I?

6

A.

7

taken out.

8

Q.

9

still intact; is that correct?

Do you recognize what we're looking at in

Well, it looks like part of the building is

So, here we have the Hoagie City building

10

A.

That's what it looks like, yeah.

11

Q.

But the building next to it, to the left of

12

it looks like it's not there anywhere?

13

A.

Yes.

14

Q.

And I guess my question is, did you realize

15

at some point that that building was no longer

16

there?

17

MR. WEISS:

18

Meaning the one at 2132

through 2134?

19

MR. DOYLE:

Yes.

20

MR. WEISS:

Mike is referring to

21
22

these two buildings.
A.

My answer is no.

23
24

2
3
4

- - - - BY MR. DOYLE:

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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Ralph Pomponi

1

Q.

2

had been torn down?

3

A.

No.

4

Q.

Even during the times you would come and

5

visit the Salvation Army building?

6

A.

Well, I didn't go this way.

7

Q.

Okay.

8

A.

I always went through the Ludlow Street.

9

So, I wasn't really concerned with or looking at

So, you never realized that that building

10

what was going on.

11

Q.

So, you never walked by in that direction?

12

A.

Walked by?

13

Q.

Did you have any conversations with the

14

store manager, Margarita or any of the employees at

15

the 22nd and Market Street store about there was

16

demolition going on next store?

17

A.

18

conversation?

19

Q.

You know what a conversation is, right?

20

A.

As far as what?

21

Q.

As far as the fact that there's

22

construction or some kind of activity going on next

23

door that's involving the demolition of the

24

building?

2
3
4

No.

As far as what do you mean by

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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Ralph Pomponi

50

1

A.

Which employee?

2

Q.

Well, we go through all of them, if you'd

3

like?

4

A.

5

far as demolition that they were doing work over

6

there?

7

Q.

8

work over there.

9

A.

Well, I don't understand the question.

As

Let's start with that that they were doing

Well, it was obvious they were doing

10

something over there.

11

Q.

All right.

12

MR. WEISS:

He wanted to know did

13

you ever have any conversations with

14

Margarita or anybody else in the store that

15

something was going on in the old Hoagie

16

City building prior to the collapse, I take

17

it?

18

MR. DOYLE:

19

THE WITNESS:

Yes.
As far as -- when you

20

say conversation that there was work being

21

done?

22

anything like that.

23
24

2
3
4

Was there -- we didn't discuss

- - - - BY MR. DOYLE:

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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Ralph Pomponi

51

1

Q.

So, the whole time --

2

A.

In other words, they're working in the

3

building and I was more focused with our building,

4

what we were doing in there.

5

what was happening in the building next door.

6

Q.

7

any conversations with any employees about this?

8

A.

9

demolition next door.

I wasn't focused on

So, it's your testimony you did not have

She mentioned to me that they were doing

10

Q.

She being?

11

A.

Margarita, but that was something we were

12

aware of.

13

knew that.

14

Q.

When you say we, who are you referring to?

15

A.

Myself, the administrator, everybody in

16

Salvation Army knew that.

17

Q.

18

you about it?

19

A.

20

demolition next door prior to the collapse.

21

Q.

22

conversation?

23

A.

One conversation.

24

Q.

When was that conversation?

2
3
4

They were doing something next door, we

When did Margarita, you said Margarita told

Margarita said that they were doing

Do you recall when that -- was that one

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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Ralph Pomponi

1

A.

The day I was there.

2

Q.

What day was that?

3

A.

Prior to that.

4

MR. WEISS:

5

THE WITNESS:

6

52

The day before.
The day before when I

went there.

7

MR. WEISS:

June 4th.

8

MR. DOYLE:

June 4th.

9

- - - - -

10

BY MR. DOYLE:

11

Q.

Why were you there on June 4th?

12

A.

Okay.

13

had an issue with her cash register.

14

person who inputs the information was having

15

problems reading the journals.

16

there to see if I could fix it.

17

times it was usually a printing problem.

18

extra printers in my car.

19

that day that's why I went there.

20

the store to do that, it was probably a little

21

after opening and the register died completely.

22

So, I had an extra one in my van, which was parked

23

behind.

24

replaced it.

2
3
4

I was there on June 4th because she
And the

So, I went down
Nine out of ten
So, I had

So, when I went there
When I went into

And I then went through took that one and
And then what happened was she left

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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Ralph Pomponi

53

1

her petty cash in the other register.

2

go down to Gordon's Cash Register to get it

3

opened.

4

with.

5

to get that accomplished.

So, I had to

So, she would have petty cash to work
So, it was a real fast, quick visit trying

6

MR. WEISS:

So, he had to leave

7

Ludlow Street, take the register that was

8

now locked with petty cash in it, get it

9

opened and come back.

10

THE WITNESS:

11

It was a little

chaotic.

12

- - - - -

13

BY MR. DOYLE:

14

Q.

What time was that?

15

A.

A little after opening because usually it

16

doesn't take that long to pull out a printer and

17

put it back in.

18

Q.

What time do stores open?

19

A.

9:00.

20

Q.

Now, in this context, what was it that

21

Margarita said to you in relation to the

22

demolition?

23

A.

That's it.

24

Q.

What did she say?

2
3
4

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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54

1

A.

2

were aware they were doing something over there.

3

So, in other words, that was it.

4

sense of any kind of urgency or any kind of issue

5

or problem.

6

Q.

7

anything from the building --

8

A.

No.

9

Q.

Let me finish the question.

10

A.

I'm sorry.

11

Q.

That's fine.

12

A.

I apologize.

13

Q.

Could you hear anything from the demolition

14

next door, debris, for example, falling onto the

15

Salvation Army's roof?

16

A.

No.

17

Q.

Could you feel any vibrations --

18

A.

No.

19

Q.

-- anything in the Salvation Army building

20

that would let you know that there was demolition?

21

A.

Vaguely, no.

22

Q.

Is there any sound of any machines or

23

anything?

24

A.

2
3
4

She said they're doing demolition, but we

There was no

Was there anything -- could you hear

No.

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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1
1

Ralph Pomponi
Q.

So, you come in between --

2

MR. WEISS:

3

55

Ask him if he even saw

a machine.

4

- - - - -

5

BY MR. DOYLE:

6

Q.

Did you see a machine there?

7

A.

No.

8

Q.

So, you come to change a cash register and

9

Margarita blurts out to you there's demolition

10

going on next door.

11

MR. WEISS:

12

Blurts out?

I don't

think --

13

- - - - -

14

BY MR. DOYLE:

15

Q.

16

saying --

17

A.

18

she's having the issue with the register and she

19

just said they're doing demolition next door.

20

wasn't like oh, there's something happening here or

21

going on here.

22

a comment.

23

Q.

Was there any context to it?

24

A.

You'd have to ask her that.

2
3
4

Well, tell me the context because you're

I'm coming in to check out the store and

It was just mentioned.

It

It was like

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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Ralph Pomponi

56

1

Q.

At the time, did it strike you as odd?

2

A.

No, it didn't.

3

Q.

Why wouldn't it?

4

A.

Because what do I know about demolition or

5

what would I be looking at even if she said to

6

me --

7

Q.

I don't want to know --

8

MR. WEISS:

9

Let him finish his

answer.

10

A.

11

It's like if I have a car and someone says where's

12

your transmission.

13

looking at, you don't know.

14

sense of urgency even if she said take a look at

15

this.

16

wouldn't know that.

It's my turn.

What would I know.

Okay.

If you don't know what you're
So, if she had any

I wouldn't know what I'm looking at.

17

I

- - - - -

18

BY MR. DOYLE:

19

Q.

20

me is that she's telling you a fact that seems to

21

come out of nowhere without any context to it.

22

I'm wondering did you perceive at the time a

23

context of her statement?

24

A.

2
3
4

I guess what strikes me about what you told

And

I think she was just stating that they were

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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Ralph Pomponi

57

1

doing work over there like that.

2

like I said, a sense of that there was any

3

problem.

4

this work next door.

5

weeks also.

6

Q.

7

store?

8

A.

She was just stating that they were doing
I hadn't seen her for several

So, maybe that's the context.

Prior to June 4th, when had you been at the

It may have been four weeks or so.

9

MR. WEISS:

10

He was on vacation.

THE WITNESS:

11

She didn't have,

why.

So, maybe that's

That may have been the reason.

12

- - - - -

13

BY MR. DOYLE:

14

Q.

15

the other employees, either Rich Stasiorowski or

16

any of the other employees at the Salvation Army

17

raise with you any --

18

A.

No.

19

Q.

-- concerns about the --

During your visit on June 4th, did any of

20

MR. WEISS:

21

Let him finish.

- - - - -

22

BY MR. DOYLE:

23

Q.

-- about the work going on next door?

24

A.

No.

2
3
4

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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58

1

Q.

2

next store?

3

A.

No.

4

Q.

On June 4th, did you have any discussion

5

with the workers who were doing the work next door?

6

A.

No.

7

Q.

Had you at any time prior to that had any

8

discussions with the employees doing the work next

9

door?

Anything at all about the work going on

10

A.

11

five or six weeks maybe prior to that I was in for

12

a store visit and someone, I believe, from the

13

building next door wanted to know if they can go on

14

our roof.

15

authority to approve anything like that.

16

have to call the administrator.

17

was he gave me his card and I forwarded that

18

information to Major Cranford.

19

at the time when the person came in.

20

only conversation I had with anyone.

21

Q.

22

prior?

23

A.

It was a while, yes.

24

Q.

Do you know the identity of the person you

2
3
4

Again, I'm not sure of the timetable, but

And I said to them I don't have
You'll

So, what he did

Margarita was there
That's the

You believe that was five to six weeks

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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Ralph Pomponi

59

1

were talking to?

2

A.

I just know he was -- I don't know.

3

Q.

He gave you his business card?

4

A.

Correct.

5

administrator.

6

Q.

7

I'm sorry, what did he tell you?

8

A.

9

roof.

And I forwarded it to the

Did he tell you why he wanted to have --

He just said that he wanted to go on our
And I said I can't authorize you going on

10

the roof.

11

card -- no, I said first, you need to get in touch

12

with the administrator he's the only person who can

13

approve that.

14

him touch with him, which I did.

15

Q.

16

the roof?

17

A.

No.

18

Q.

At that time, did you know that he was

19

involved with the working going on next door?

20

A.

21

card.

22

know who he was.

23

wanted to go on our roof.

24

was a contractor or I don't know what he was.

2
3
4

Give me your card.

He said here's my

And he said here's my card and get

Did he tell you why he wanted to get up on

He just wanted to get on the roof.

I didn't know anything until he gave me the
I don't know who he was.

I really don't

I just know that he came in and
I can't assume that he

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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I

1

Ralph Pomponi

1

just know he came and said he wanted to have access

2

to go on our roof.

3

Q.

4

the working going on next door?

5

A.

6

he was no, I don't know that.

7

Q.

8

says, hey, can I get up on your roof?

9

A.

No.

10

Q.

You understood he had some involvement?

11

A.

Had some involvement, but what, I don't

12

specifically know.

13

Q.

14

person is?

15

A.

Huh?

16

Q.

Sitting here today, do you know now who

17

that person was?

18

A.

No.

19

Q.

Does the name Griffin Campbell ring a bell?

20

A.

Yes.

21

Q.

Do you know who that is?

22

A.

I don't know if that was the person or not,

23

I don't know.

24

Q.

2
3
4

I told him I can't do that.

You understood that he was involved with

I believe he was coming from, yes, but who

It's not every day somebody walks in and

Sitting here today, do you know who that

You understand Griffin Campbell was the

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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Ralph Pomponi

61

1

contractor?

2

A.

I believe so.

3

Q.

Where did you get that information from?

4

Where did you learn that Griffin Campbell --

5

A.

6

administrator, you know, I'm not sure.

I learned it through I guess the

7

MR. WEISS:

8
9

It's been in the

newspaper also.
A.

All I know is a person came in with the

10

card and wanted to get on top of it and I forwarded

11

it to the administrator.

12

things you hear and see on the news.

13

That's another issue,

- - - - -

14

BY MR. DOYLE:

15

Q.

16

if news, I'd like to know that, that's fine.

17

just want to know where you got the information.

18

A.

19

me.

20

Q.

21

today --

22

A.

No.

23

Q.

-- the person as Griffin Campbell?

24

A.

No.

2
3
4

Well, if you learned about it afterwards on

I don't know.

I

The name sounds familiar to

But you can't identify as you sit here

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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62

1

Q.

2

instances where you spoke with anyone involved in

3

the work going on next door?

4

A.

No.

5

Q.

Was there any other time where you had any

6

conversations with Margarita or anyone from the

7

Salvation Army, the employees at the store

8

regarding the work going on next door?

9

A.

No.

10

Q.

The answer is no?

11

A.

No.

12

Q.

Okay.

13

Major Cranford and other persons above you in the

14

chain of command, did you have discussions with

15

them about the demolition prior to the collapse?

16

A.

Can you be more specific?

17

Q.

You testified earlier that we were all

18

aware or we all knew that it was going on.

19

curious I think when you said we, you're referring

20

to the administration?

21

A.

22

there, yes.

23

Q.

How did you come by that information?

24

A.

I mean they knew that there was work being

2
3
4

Besides that one time, were there any other

What about your discussions with

And I'm

Yeah, that there was work being done over

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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Ralph Pomponi

1

done over there.

2

Q.

Who is they?

3

A.

Well, headquarters and the administrator.

4

Q.

The administrator John Cranford?

5

A.

Knew that there was work going on over

6

there, yes.

7

Q.

8

be referring to?

9

A.

That would be up in New York, Emmaus.

10

Q.

How do you know that new work was going on?

11

A.

How do I know?

12

Q.

Yes.

13

A.

It was obvious there was work going on.

14

Q.

Why you say it was obvious -- I mean, do

15

you know if Major Cranford had ever been to this

16

building before?

17

A.

Had he been to the store?

18

Q.

To the 22nd and Market Street?

19

A.

He had been there I believe once last year.

20

Q.

Do you know when that was?

21

A.

No, not offhand.

22

Q.

Do you think if Major Cranford was there at

23

a time when it would have been obvious to him that

24

work was going on next door?

2
3
4

When you say headquarters, where would you

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Ralph Pomponi

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1

A.

No.

2

Q.

Okay.

3

would have been obvious?

4

people in headquarters never been there?

5

A.

6

was some sort of work being done in the building

7

next door.

8

this personally.

I think it was before that.
So, then how would they know it
He's never been there, if

Well, I'm saying that they knew that there

There must have been -- I don't know

9

MR. WEISS:

10

Don't guess.

don't know.

11

THE WITNESS:

12

No, I don't know.

- - - - -

13

BY MR. DOYLE:

14

Q.

15

that there was work going on next door?

16
17

But it was your testimony that they knew

MR. WEISS:

What was that?

- - - - -

19

(Whereupon, the requested

20

portion was read back by the court

21

reporter.)

23
24

2
3
4

Read

that back.

18

22

If you

- - - - MR. WEISS:

When you answer Mike's

questions you have to answer them

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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1

truthfully based upon your personal

2

knowledge.

3

you're assuming that they knew, then tell

4

Mike that.

5

basis that you can say that they knew, then

6

tell Mike that.

7

he's entitled to it.

8

THE WITNESS:

9

Don't assume anything.

And if

But if you've got some other

He wants the truth and

I can't assume that

they knew.

10

- - - - -

11

BY MR. DOYLE:

12

Q.

13

Cranford prior to the collapse about the fact that

14

there was working going on next door to the 22nd

15

and Market Street building?

16

A.

Yes, but I don't know when that was.

17

Q.

What was the context of that conversation?

18

Where did it take place?

19

A.

I don't remember.

20

Q.

Was it just a personal conversation between

21

you and Major Cranford or were there others there?

22

A.

23

conversations that there was work being done.

24

I'm saying to you that I don't recall every time we

2
3
4

Did you have any conversations with Major

You're asking me specifically if we had

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Ralph Pomponi

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discussed those things or could discuss them.

2

Q.

But you did discuss them?

3

A.

That there was work going on, yes.

4

you're asking me when, I don't know when.

5

Q.

6

work was going on?

7

A.

That there was work going on, yes.

8

Q.

It was prior to the collapse?

9

A.

I believe so.

10

Q.

And tell me about the -- what is it that

11

was said to each other?

12

the conversations?

13

A.

I don't remember that.

14

Q.

You don't remember anything about the

15

conversation?

16

A.

17

mean that they were doing work next door.

18

they were taking these buildings down --

19

Q.

Did you --

20

A.

-- but the specifics of anything, no.

21

Q.

Is it anything about the concern about the

22

fact how they were going about the demolition?

23

A.

No.

24

Q.

Was there anything about any concern about

2
3
4

66

Now, if

It was obviously during the time frame that

What was the subject of

No, just that there was work being done.
That

I

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1

the safety of Salvation Army employees

2

A.

No.

3

Q.

-- with regard to the fact that demolition

4

was going on next door?

5

A.

No.

6

Q.

Were you aware that there were

7

communications going on between the building owner

8

and the Salvation Army

9

A.

No.

10

Q.

-- in the days leading up to the collapse?

11

A.

No.

12

Q.

You were not --

13

A.

No.

14

Q.

-- privy to those communications?

15

A.

No.

16

Q.

Major Cranford never said to you, hey,

17

these people want to get up on the roof and we're

18

not letting them?

19

A.

20

--

--

No.
MR. WEISS:

Your question implies

21

that that's in fact what occurred.

22

know from our public statements and from

23

our documents that Salvation Army never had

24

a problem with them putting plywood and a

2
3
4

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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Ralph Pomponi

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68

tarp on the roof.

2

MR. DOYLE:

Just to clarify for the

3

record, if I implied that then I withdraw

4

that information.

That wasn't my intent.

5

MR. WEISS:

Okay.

6

MR. DOYLE:

Let's take a

7

five-minute break.

8

MR. WEISS:

9

Thank you.

Fine.

- - - - -

10

(Whereupon, a short break was

11

taken.)

12

- - - - -

13

BY MR. DOYLE:

14

Q.

15

a gentleman came in to the building at some point

16

prior to the collapse --

17

A.

Yes.

18

Q.

-- and wanted to get up on the roof.

19

believe you had told him he needed to contact --

20

A.

Correct.

21

Q.

-- the administrator?

22

A.

Yes.

23

Q.

Okay.

24

conversations with the administrator regarding the

2
3
4

Mr. Pomponi, you had testified earlier that

And I

Thereafter, did you ever have any

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1

guy that came in and asked you?

2

A.

No.

3

Q.

So, that never came up?

4

A.

No.

5

Q.

Is there any reason you didn't follow-up

6

with the administrator and say, hey, this guy came

7

out and wants to get up on the roof?

8

A.

It wasn't my responsibility.

9

Q.

You don't think it's important to tell them

10

about?

11

A.

12

that.

13

the administrator would have to discuss with his

14

superiors and whoever they were dealing with.

15

wasn't part of my responsibility, no.

16

Q.

In terms of --

17

A.

I just passed him the message, gave him the

18

information.

19

Q.

Gave who the information?

20

A.

John Cranford, the card.

21

Q.

So, you did tell the Major about the guy

22

coming in and asking him --

I don't have control over something like
That would be something he would have to --

23
24

2
3
4

MR. WEISS:

That

He said he gave him the

card.

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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Ralph Pomponi
A.

I gave him the card.

2

- - - - -

3

BY MR. DOYLE:

4

Q.

5

testimony that you gave Major Cranford --

6

A.

Yes.

7

Q.

-- this guy's card?

8

A.

Correct.

9

Q.

Did you tell him why you were giving him

I'm sorry, I thought -- so, it's your

10

the card?

11

A.

Did I tell him what?

12

Q.

What did you tell him when you gave him the

13

card?

14

A.

15

access to the roof and I couldn't authorize that.

16

And here's his card, gave him his card.

17

Q.

What did Major Cranford say to you?

18

A.

He took the card.

19

Q.

Did you say anything to him?

20

A.

That's it.

21

Q.

He didn't say anything about the fact that

22

he had dealt with this gentleman before?

23

A.

No, no, unh-unh, no.

24

Q.

Prior to the collapse, do you remember the

2
3
4

I told him somebody came him and wanted

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state of the bathroom in the Salvation Army

2

building?

3

A.

Yes.

4

Q.

During the demolition and prior to the

5

collapse, did you notice any, for example, debris

6

coming off the ceiling into the bathroom?

7

A.

During the time of the collapse, no.

8

Q.

Prior to the collapse?

9

A.

Well, there had been leaks there before

Did you ever use the bathroom?

10

which were fixed, to my understanding.

11

Q.

12

coming down?

13

A.

No, I'm not aware of that.

14

Q.

So, it never occurred to you or you never

15

recognized that debris was falling into the

16

bathroom during the demolition process?

17

A.

18

the bathroom during the demolition, no.

19

Q.

Did any of the employees ever tell you --

20

A.

No.

21

Q.

-- there was debris --

22

A.

No.

23

Q.

Let me finish.

24

record.

2
3
4

Not just leaks.

I'm talking about debris

I was not aware of any debris falling in

We need to have it for the

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Ralph Pomponi

72

1

A.

I understand.

2

Q.

So, the question is, did any of the

3

employees prior to the collapse tell you that there

4

was debris falling from the ceiling in the bathroom

5

to the bathroom floor?

6

A.

7

negatively.)

8

Q.

So, the answer is no?

9

A.

No.

10

Q.

If they had given you that information,

11

what would you have done with that?

12

A.

13

the procedure, which is call the administrator or

14

if it wasn't a serious issue, fill out a form and

15

send it in and they'll send someone out to check it

16

out.

17

Q.

18

Where were you working on that day?

19

A.

20

happened on the day of the collapse, I hadn't been

21

to one of the stores in a while, the Reading store,

22

about two and a half weeks so I made a last-minute

23

decision.

24

Market to fix the register.

2
3
4

(Whereupon, the witness is indicating

Well, I would have told them to go through

Tell me about the day of the collapse.

The day of the collapse.

Okay.

What

They were having difficulty at 22nd and
They couldn't set the

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Ralph Pomponi

73

1

tax.

2

They couldn't do it.

3

going to go down there.

4

the last minute I changed my mind and I said I'll

5

go later.

6

I'm sitting up there maybe an hour and a half and I

7

get a phone call and I'm told that the ceiling came

8

down at 22nd and Market Street.

9

down here.

I gave them the information over the phone.
So, what I did was, I was
It was around 9:00.

At

And I went up to Reading instead.

And

You have to come

And at first I thought maybe it was a

10

ceiling tile, you know, it wasn't anything.

11

then I got a knock on the door as I'm having a

12

meeting with one of the managers and they asked me

13

to look at the TV and it was out there.

14

how I saw it.

15

there to see that.

16

Q.

17

collapse?

18

A.

19

and Mark Constable got down there.

20

to the center to make phone calls to find out where

21

our personnel were because they had been taken out

22

to various hospitals and so forth.

23

I spent that day.

24

Q.

2
3
4

And

And that's

I don't even recall how I drove down
That's my day.

Did you go down to the site after the

I couldn't get down.

The Major was down
So, I went back

So, that's how

Did you have any discussions with Major

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74

1

Cranford that day after the collapse about the

2

collapse?

3

A.

Well, first of all, we were in total

4

shock.

We didn't know what happened.

5

trying to get in contact with the employees to find

6

out how they were doing.

7

where they were.

8

if they wanted us to see how they were to come to

9

their houses.

We were

That was my concern and

And we offered to meet with them

That was my few days.

10

Q.

11

attempted to contact employees?

12

A.

Yes.

13

Q.

Do you recall who you personally contacted,

14

if anyone?

15

A.

16

Margarita.

17

able to see how Louis and Rodney Geddis, we went to

18

their houses.

19

Q.

When you say we who are you referring?

20

A.

Me and the Major, we both went to see them.

21

Q.

In your conversation with Richard

22

Stasiorowski after the collapse, was there any

23

discussion about why this happened or you know --

24

A.

2
3
4

So, in the days after the collapse, you

Yeah, I spoke with Richard.
I spoke with Louis.

I spoke with

In fact, we were

We don't know why it happened.

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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Ralph Pomponi

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1

Q.

Tell me about that conversation then.

2

A.

I'm trying to recall because he actually

3

pulled a couple people out of the debris.

4

I think, he was the one who told us that Kimberly

5

had passed away.

6

my conversation was to find out how he was or how

7

he was doing.

8

Q.

9

have been prevented?

And he,

That was our conversation.

And

Was there any discussion of how this might

10

A.

No.

11

Q.

What about in your discussion with

12

Margarita?

13

A.

14

to get in contact with her so we could come visit

15

and see how she was doing.

16

conversation.

17

Q.

So, there was no substantive discussion?

18

A.

I haven't spoke to her since.

19

Q.

What about Louis and Rodney, what do you

20

recall about those conversations?

21

A.

Well, we went to visit them.

22

Q.

Okay.

23

A.

They were kind of in a state of shock, but

24

we were just trying to comfort them.

2
3
4

At a time like that, no.

Margarita's conversation was we were trying

That was the

We were just

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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Ralph Pomponi

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trying to -- you know the administrators, I don't

2

know if you're aware of this or not, are pastors.

3

So, we were there for them to help them to get

4

through this.

5

Q.

6

Rodney about how this might have been prevented?

7

A.

No.

8

Q.

Did you ever talk with a gentleman named

9

Jack Higgins?

Was there any conversation with Louis or

10

A.

No.

11

Q.

Okay.

12

A.

No.

13

Q.

Were you aware that a few, maybe a week or

14

two or three before the collapse, the Salvation

15

Army had an architect go out and look at the

16

Salvation Army building at 22nd and Market?

17

A.

No.

18

Q.

Have you ever talked with a gentleman named

19

Plato Marinakos?

20

A.

No.

21

Q.

Do you know who that is?

22

A.

No.

23

Q.

Did you ever have any conversations with

24

anyone form the Salvation Army after the collapse

2
3
4

Who's that?
So, you don't know who that is?

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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Ralph Pomponi

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1

about steps that could have been taken to prevent

2

this from happening?

3

A.

No.

4

Q.

Did you have any conversations with Major

5

Cranford after the collapse about how the collapse

6

occurred?

7

A.

How it occurred?

8

Q.

Yes.

9

A.

No.

10

Q.

Did you have any conversations after the

11

collapse with Major Cranford about safety-related

12

issues for the employees at the 22nd and Market

13

Street building?

14

A.

No.

15

- - - - -

16

(Whereupon, the Document was

17

marked as Government Exhibit-J for

18

identification by the court reporter.)

19

- - - - -

20

BY MR. DOYLE:

21

Q.

22

Government Exhibit-J is obviously a photograph of

23

the demolition going on at 2138, 2136 Market.

24

you agree with that?

2
3
4

I'm showing you Government Exhibit-J.

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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Do

1

Ralph Pomponi

1

MR. WEISS:

2

THE WITNESS:

3

78

Well, it is what it is.
It is what it is,

yeah.

4

MR. DOYLE:

5

Okay.

- - - - -

6

BY MR. DOYLE:

7

Q.

8

building --

9

A.

Had you ever seen the condition of the

No.

10

MR. WEISS:

11

Let him finish his

question.

12

THE WITNESS:

13

I'm sorry.

- - - - -

14

BY MR. DOYLE:

15

Q.

16

Street as depicted in this photograph?

17

A.

The answer is no.

18

Q.

I believe you testified earlier that you

19

never saw this?

20

yellow heavy piece of heavy machinery.

21

Caterpillar, do you see that?

22

A.

No.

23

Q.

You don't see the photograph?

24

A.

Yeah, I see it in the --

2
3
4

The condition of the 2136, 2138 Market

You see in the photograph the
The

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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Ralph Pomponi

79

1

Q.

So, you never saw that before the collapse?

2

A.

No.

3

Q.

You never talked to the operator of it then

4

I take it?

5

A.

No.

6

Q.

The day before the collapse when you were

7

at the facility, did you notice the party wall that

8

was still standing between the building that was

9

being demolished and the Thrift Store shop?

10

A.

11

negatively.)

12

Q.

You didn't notice it?

13

A.

No.

14

Q.

So, you didn't go out --

(Whereupon, the witness is indicating

15

MR. WEISS:

16

I'll shorten this.

17

front when he brought back the register --

Just so you appreciate,
He pulled up to the

18

MR. DOYLE:

19

facts, I prefer that he --

20

MR. WEISS:

21

If there's going to be

Explain how you did

that.

22

THE WITNESS:

23

MR. WEISS:

24

2
3
4

I told him that.
I don't think he got

it.

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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- - - - -

2

BY MR. DOYLE:

3

Q.

4

back in the front.

5

A.

6

(indicating.)

7

Q.

8

Exhibit-J.

9

A.

10
11
12
13
14

80

I didn't hear the part about when you came

When I came back, I pulled here,
There was nothing here.

Let me have you circle in Government

Do you have a picture of the store, just

the store itself?
MR. DOYLE:

Let's mark this as

Government Exhibit-K.
- - - - (Whereupon, the Document was

15

marked as Government Exhibit-K for

16

identification by the court reporter.)

17

- - - - -

18

MR. WEISS:

Let me see it.

19

know if this shows it or not.

20

I don't think it does.

21

I don't

Let's see.

You know what, if I can make a

22

suggestion to you, Mike, you had a picture

23

here that I think obviously because I've

24

spoken to him about this and I want him to

2
3
4

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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1

be able to explain it to you.

2

probably show you on the diagram.

3
4

81
He can

MR. DOYLE:

So, Government-G, as in

MR. WEISS:

Show him what you did

Gary.

5
6

when you arrived using, if it's okay with

7

Mike, using that diagram, show him what

8

happened on that.

9

THE WITNESS:

10

Well, what

happened --

11

- - - - -

12

BY MR. DOYLE:

13

Q.

Let me give you a red pen to mark the area.

14

A.

Well, when I came back I pulled up in front

15

of the store.

16

MR. WEISS:

17

it's accurate.

18

Mark it carefully so

That's fine.

THE WITNESS:

It may have been

19

where the door, a little passed the door,

20

let's say.

21

- - - - -

22

BY MR. DOYLE:

23

Q.

24

building was on the corner?

2
3
4

So, as I understand the door of the

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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82

1

A.

2

that, yes.

3

money to Margarita and drove off.

4

Q.

Outside the building or inside?

5

A.

Yeah, outside.

6

Correct.

So, I pulled in a little passed

And I handed the register with the

MR. WEISS:

Tell him how you drove

7

off and what you were -- he wants to know

8

did you see what was going on because --

9

let me finish.

10
11

Did you see what was going

on at 2138, 2136 as you pulled away?
THE WITNESS:

No.

You know why?

12

Because I have to check out the traffic

13

coming this way.

14

So, as I gave her the register and looking

15

and I drove off.

16

So, I wasn't looking.

So, I never saw that.

MR. WEISS:

But he did not notice

17

an escavator at that point.

18

THE WITNESS:

19

MR. WEISS:

No.
I asked him that

20

question.

21

impression he only went in the back door,

22

but he did go in the front door because we

23

want to make a full disclosure here.

24

this occasion, but then he had to pull into

2
3
4

I thought you were under the

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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Ralph Pomponi

83

1

the traffic on Market Street, he didn't

2

really have the chance to watch to the

3

right side because the traffic is all to

4

the left.

5

THE WITNESS:

6

MR. DOYLE:

7

Coming the other way.
Okay.

- - - - -

8

BY MR. DOYLE:

9

Q.

Are you aware of any discussions that Major

10

Cranford and/or other management level Salvation

11

Army people had prior to the collapse about the

12

possibility of shutting down the store for a couple

13

of weeks until the demolition could run its course?

14

A.

No.

15

Q.

That idea never came up?

16

A.

(Whereupon, the witness is indicating

17

negatively.)

18

MR. WEISS:

19

that.

20

He can't say it ever came up.
THE WITNESS:

21

That's what I'm

trying to say, no, I'm not aware of that.

22

- - - - -

23

BY MR. DOYLE:

24

Q.

2
3
4

He's not aware of

Is that an idea that you thought of at all

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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1
1

Ralph Pomponi
in the time leading up to the collapse?

2
3

MR. WEISS:
A.

Prior.

No.

4

- - - - -

5

BY MR. DOYLE:

6

Q.

7

itself including Margarita and Richard come to you

8

and say we have concerns about what's going on next

9

door, something needs to be done to protect our

Did any of the employees at the store

10

safety?

11

A.

No.

12

Q.

When you learned that the collapse

13

occurred, were you surprised?

14

A.

Yes.

15

Q.

All right.

16

procedure for reporting safety problems at the

17

store would be to fill out a form?

18

A.

Maintenance problems.

19

Q.

I'm sorry?

20

A.

Maintenance problems.

21

Q.

Maintenance problems.

22
23
24

2
3
4

Nothing at all like that?

You testified earlier that the

MR. WEISS:

Safety concerns would

be a call to the administrator.
- - - - -

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BY MR. DOYLE:

2

Q.

3

include?

4

problem, right?

5

A.

Right.

6

Q.

What else would maintenance encompass?

7

A.

Anything that dealt with the maintenance of

8

the building, any problems or issues or if there

9

were no lights, if there were no air-conditioning,

So, maintenance issues, what would that
We gave an example of an electrical

10

the heat, anything to that nature.

11

Q.

12

collapse in 2013 maintenance forms of that sort had

13

been filled out by the personal at the 22nd and

14

Market Street store and sent to the -- where are

15

they sent to.

16

A.

17

up to the building and on the maintenance request

18

form it has maintenance.

19

responsible will take the form and go to the

20

administrator and they would go from there.

21

Q.

22

filled out for that store, 22nd and Market in 2013?

23

A.

24

have to fill out.

2
3
4

Do you know at any time prior to the

They're put in the paperwork and it's sent

So, the person who is

Are you aware of any such forms having been

Again, that would be something they would
Am I aware of any given time,

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no.

2

Q.

Did you --

3

MR. WEISS:

4

86

Keep in mind that he

does not typically deal with that.

5

THE WITNESS:

6

So, I wouldn't know.

7

I don't deal with it.

- - - - -

8

BY MR. DOYLE:

9

Q.

You might be aware of just a general

10

conversation with --

11

A.

12

would be able to give you that information.

13

Q.

14

collapse, any maintenance forms with respect to

15

that building?

16

A.

Myself, no.

17

Q.

Could you have?

18

A.

The managers are supposed to do that.

19

wouldn't fill out a form for something like that.

20

That's the chain of command.

21

Q.

22

building and you saw this is a maintenance issue,

23

how would you --

24

A.

2
3
4

Again, you would have to speak with -- they

Had you ever filled out, prior to the

I

That's how it works.

I mean if you were walking through the

Then I would direct it to the manager to

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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1

fill it out and send it in.

2

Q.

3

2013?

4

A.

No.

5

Q.

Did anyone from Major Cranford or above you

6

in the chain of command ever direct you in the time

7

leading up to the collapse to instruct the

8

personnel at 22nd and Market, the employees at that

9

store to be aware of what's going on next door and

Do you recall having done that at all in

10

report any issues --

11

A.

Not to my knowledge.

12

Q.

-- back to you or up the chain of command?

13

A.

Not to my knowledge.

14

Q.

If the management wanted to do that, would

15

that have been the appropriate way of conveying

16

that information?

17

MR. WEISS:

18

I object.

- - - - -

19

BY MR. DOYLE:

20

Q.

Let me ask the question a different way.

21

If you know from your experience of

22

17 years in your position, if the management wanted

23

to convey to the personnel at 22nd and Market

24

Street the employees at that store to be on the

2
3
4

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1

lookout for safety concerns due to the fact that

2

there is demolition going on next door, what would

3

be the procedure that would be used to convey that

4

information?

5

A.

6

Major may call them directly or he may ask me.

7

I think he would, I can't speak for him, but he

8

would handle that, he would call.

9

Q.

Well, they may do that at a meeting or the
But

Do you know if the Major ever made any such

10

call to Margarita or Richard Stasiorowski?

11

A.

Not to my knowledge, no.

12

Q.

You referenced meetings, I think at the

13

beginning of your testimony you talked about

14

periodic manager meetings.

15

was the last manager's meeting prior to the

16

collapse?

17

A.

I'm not sure.

18

Q.

Do you keep meeting minutes of those?

19

A.

Yes.

20

Q.

You do?

21

A.

Yes.

22

Q.

Who keeps those minutes?

23

A.

The assistant to the administrator's wife.

24

Q.

Is the assistant the administrator's wife

2
3
4

Do you remember when

I'd have to look that up.

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1

or is it the assistant to the administrator's wife?

2

A.

3

correct myself.

4

part from the stores.

5

at the store part of it, no there's no one keeping

6

minutes for that.

7

Q.

So, what are minutes kept of?

8

A.

Well, if we have issues at the center.

9

they'll bring in all the supervisors that work at

10

the center, myself being the stores, maintenance,

11

program, different areas.

12

for that.

13

we'll just have the handouts and we'll give it out

14

to the supervisors.

15

Q.

16

again just so it's clear for the record.

17

manager meetings that you have periodically, are

18

there minutes kept of those meetings?

19

A.

There may be minutes kept.

20

Q.

Now, if there are minutes kept, who would

21

keep them?

22

A.

23

for that.

24

Q.

2
3
4

I'm sorry, if we have a -- no, let me
We have meetings with staff also a
So, there's no one keeping

So,

So, they'll have minutes

But when we have the manager's meetings

So, just to be clear, I'll ask the question
These

Mark Constable may have kept the minutes

Before each meeting of that sort, these

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1

weekly manager's meeting --

2

A.

Monthly.

3

Q.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to testify for

4

you.

5

These periodic manager's meetings,

6

do you circulate an agenda to everyone about here's

7

what the meeting is about?

8

A.

9

affirmatively.)

(Whereupon, the witness is indicating

10

Q.

You have to answer.

11

A.

Yes.

12

Q.

Okay.

13

A.

Well, myself, Mark Constable and it can be

14

the administrator, the Major does.

15

handle different areas that we handle to address

16

those issues at the meetings.

17

Q.

18

show what the agenda is, who keeps those?

19

A.

20

we don't keep them.

21

need it.

22

Q.

23

Margarita, are they allowed to put an item on the

24

meeting agenda?

2
3
4

Who creates the agenda?

So, we'll

And if I wanted to see those documents that

Mark Constable may have some of them, but
I mean I may have some if you

Are the store supervisors, people like

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1

A.

2

meetings if there are some issues and problems that

3

are reoccurring all the time and we just want to

4

make sure that everybody is on the same page.

5

we'll discuss the sales for the month.

6

discuss maybe that there's holidays, how we're

7

going to handle sales, how to be more productive

8

and things of that nature.

9

Q.

No.

In other words, we'll have the

So,

We'll

Is employee safety ever a topic of these

10

meetings?

11

A.

12

the meeting.

13

Q.

14

employee safety as a topic?

15

A.

16

stores, not to have it cluttered so people don't

17

get injured and things like that, yes, we'll talk

18

about it.

19

I don't recall the last time that was in
No, not within the last year.

Prior to the last year, had there been

Well, you know, how to handle situations in

MR. WEISS:

You'll see in the

20

calendar how to lift, not to trip,

21

different things like that in the calendar

22

there's things of that throughout the

23

calendar.

24

meetings at least safety issues are

2
3
4

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1

Ralph Pomponi

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92

related --

2

THE WITNESS:

3

Those are given out

every year.

4

- - - - -

5

BY MR. DOYLE:

6

Q.

7

Mr. Weiss is talking about calendars.

8

A.

Uh-huh.

9

Q.

Do you know what he's referring to?

10

A.

Yes.

11

Q.

Tell me what he's referring to?

12

A.

It's a safety calendar that we get once a

13

year.

14

other words, let's say, make sure that the fire

15

extinguishers are up to date or make sure that

16

things are locked in the front or maybe have a fire

17

drill or something of that nature.

18

with the employees concerning whatever it would say

19

on a particular day and how to do that.

20

Q.

Where do you get the calendars from?

21

A.

I believe they come from headquarters.

22

Q.

Does headquarters develop the calendars?

23

Is that an outside service?

24

A.

2
3
4

Tell me about, do you understand what

And it gives you days when you should -- in

Have meetings

I'm not sure.

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1

Q.

2

calendars to the store managers?

3

A.

4

with the managers.

5

and they're supposed to follow through what we're

6

telling them.

7

Q.

8

22nd and Market Street store prior to the collapse?

9

A.

What is your role in distributing the

I give them out personally and I discuss it
They're supposed to be posted

Do you know whether it was posted at the

I'm not sure, but they were all given

10

calendars.

11

Q.

12

calendar?

13

A.

No.

14

Q.

Do you recall seeing or is it your

15

testimony that you do not recall seeing the

16

calendar posted at the 22nd and Market Street

17

store?

18

A.

19

would have been posted on a pegboard somewhere.

20

Q.

21

informed about the calendar?

22

A.

23

correct.

24

Q.

2
3
4

Do you know when you gave Margarita her

I don't recall seeing it, no.

I mean it

And are the employees supposed to be

The manager is supposed to inform, yes,

How does a manager know that she is

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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Ralph Pomponi

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supposed to inform the employees?

2

A.

3

This is -- we don't have a calendar, do we?

94

Because I have the conversations with her.

4

MR. WEISS:

I do.

5

A.

6

specifically what to do on a particular day.

7

they're instructed to do that with the employees.

But we look at the calendar it tells us

8
9

And

- - - - BY MR. DOYLE:

10

Q.

11

where you say here's the calendar?

12

A.

Yes.

13

Q.

You're supposed to discuss this --

14

A.

Yes.

15

Q.

-- with the employees?

16

A.

Correct.

17

Q.

Is that right?

18

A.

Yes.

19

Q.

Do you recall when that conversation took

20

place?

21

A.

22

negatively.)

23

Q.

You have to say it again.

24

A.

No.

2
3
4

So, you have a conversation with Margarita

(Whereupon, the witness is indicating

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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MR. DOYLE:

95

Let's take another

2

break.

3

minutes worth of questions and we'll wrap

4

it up.

5

I think we have only ten more

So, let's take, like, ten minutes.
THE WITNESS:

6

Okay.

- - - - -

7

(Whereupon, a short break was

8

taken.)

9

- - - - -

10

MR. DOYLE:

11

Back on the record.

- - - - -

12

BY MR. DOYLE:

13

Q.

Just a few follow-up questions.

14

A.

Sure.

15

Q.

Now, who at the store level at the thrift

16

stores including the 22nd and Market Street, who

17

would be responsible at that level for the safety

18

of the employees?

19

A.

Well, the store manager.

20

Q.

So, for the 22nd and Market Street it would

21

be Margarita; is that correct?

22

A.

Yes.

23

Q.

Do you know if Margarita ever receives OSHA

24

related training?

2
3
4

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1

A.

No.

2

Q.

No, you don't know or no, she does not?

3

A.

No, she does not.

4

Q.

We talked earlier about these calendars

5

that are distributed to the stores.

6

understand they come from headquarters you believe?

7

A.

I believe so.

8

Q.

Okay.

9

A.

How?

10

Q.

Yes.

11

A.

They're given to me by the administrator.

12

Q.

Does the administrator give you any

13

instructions on what to do with them?

14

A.

15

and instruct them to follow it.

16

Q.

17

posted?

18

A.

What do I do?

19

Q.

Yes.

20

A.

What do you mean?

21

Q.

I believe you testified earlier that you

22

don't recall seeing --

23

A.

24

the stores where I've seen it if I'm walking by the

2
3
4

And as I

And how do you personally get them?

Give them out and make sure they're posted

And what do you do to make sure they're

No, I don't because, you know, I've gone in

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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1

area where they have their clipboard then I'll see

2

it.

3

wouldn't notice it, no.

But if I'm not looking for that, then I

4

MR. WEISS:

He's not saying it

5

wasn't posted.

6

remember if it was or wasn't.

7

He's saying he doesn't

THE WITNESS:

8

I don't remember if

it was or wasn't.

9

- - - - -

10

BY MR. DOYLE:

11

Q.

12

whereby you walk around and look at the store and

13

make sure that the calendar is posted?

14

A.

You mean to check it?

15

Q.

To make sure that it's posted.

16

A.

You know, again, I use the -- I would hope

17

that the managers post the information that we give

18

them.

19

the calendar had I checked each single store to

20

make sure they were up.

21

didn't.

22

Q.

23

decided that they weren't going to post it, hang

24

the calendar up?

2
3
4

Okay.

Do you have any process in place

Now, if you're asking me after I give them

And the answer is no, I

What would you do if a store manager

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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MR. WEISS:

2

A.

98

And he was aware of it?

And I was aware of it?

3

- - - - -

4

BY MR. DOYLE:

5

Q.

Yes.

6

A.

I would make sure that they would put it

7

up.

8

Q.

How would you go about doing that?

9

A.

Tell them to put it up.

10

Q.

Had you ever had to do that for any of the

11

store managers?

12

A.

13

where they didn't have it posted and I was aware of

14

it and I told them.

15

and they had it in the drawer and I told them to

16

make sure they posted it.

17

Q.

Do you remember when that was?

18

A.

When?

19

Q.

Yes.

20

A.

No.

21

Q.

Do you remember which store it was?

22

A.

(Whereupon, the witness is indicating

23

negatively.)

24

Q.

2
3
4

I'm trying to think.

There was an occasion

When I asked them where it was

No?

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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Ralph Pomponi

1

A.

2

right one.

3

Q.

Was it the 22nd and Market?

4

A.

No.

5

Q.

It was not?

6

A.

No.

7

Q.

Do the store managers like Margarita, do

8

they get performance evaluations?

9

A.

Yes.

10

Q.

How often are they evaluated?

11

A.

Yearly.

12

Q.

Was that a written evaluation?

13

A.

Yes.

14

Q.

Who completes the evaluation?

15

A.

I do.

16

Q.

Do you get input from anyone or is it just

17

your evaluation?

18

A.

19

evaluation.

20

I go over their pluses and minuses, what they can

21

do to do their job better and some of the things

22

that they're weak on.

23

Q.

24

to the collapse?

2
3
4

I don't want to say because if it's not the

Input from whom?

It's a manager's

We have a form, fill out the form and

Had you done one at all for Margarita prior

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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100

1

A.

Yeah, I would believe so.

2

Q.

Do you know when?

3

A.

No.

4

Q.

When do you typically do the --

5

A.

On their anniversary.

6

MR. WEISS:

7

She's been there for

seven months.

8

THE WITNESS:

9

Again, Margarita's

been there off and on three times.

She

10

left to pursue another job.

11

wanted to come back and we hired her back.

12

So, when you're asking me questions when

13

all this was, I don't know specifically.

14

would have to look it up.

15

check her file.

16

And then she

I would have to

- - - - -

17

BY MR. DOYLE:

18

Q.

19

evaluation for Margarita during the time that she

20

was store manager for 22nd and Market?

21

A.

I don't remember.

22

Q.

Do you keep these evaluations?

23

A.

We have them on file, yes.

24

Q.

Do the store managers get to see their

2
3
4

I

Do you think that you did a performance

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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1

individual evaluations?

2

A.

Absolutely, sure.

3

Q.

Do you sit down and discuss with them?

4

A.

Yes.

5

Q.

Is employee safety one of the things that

6

they're evaluated on?

7

A.

8

me take that back.

9

far as keeping the work area clean and neat.

That is on the evaluation, no.

Well, let

There is a part on the form as
So,

10

that is on there.

11

that your work area, how you handle your work

12

area.

13

making sure your store is clean, neat, organized

14

and not, say, a hazard to anyone.

15

extent.

16

Q.

17

employees at the store as it relates to employee

18

safety?

19

That is on there to make sure

So, if it's a store manager that would be

That's the

What about the disciplinary policy for

First of all -MR. WEISS:

I really am troubled by

20

all this as what this has to do with the

21

collapse, but I'm going to allow you to

22

finish so we can get this done.

23

don't understand why you're putting the

24

Salvation Army through this.

2
3
4

But I just

I really

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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102

don't.

2

- - - - -

3

BY MR. DOYLE:

4

Q.

Do you understand the question?

5

A.

No.

6

MR. DOYLE:

7

Can you read it back?

- - - - -

8

(Whereupon, the requested

9

portion was read back by the court

10

reporter.)

11

- - - - -

12

BY MR. DOYLE:

13

Q.

14

there a policy, a disciplinary policy?

15

A.

If someone did?

16

Q.

Was acting unsafely.

17

violence would be an issue, for example, if

18

there's --

19

A.

Violence?

20

Q.

Yes.

21

employees.

22

A.

Oh, that would be grounds for termination.

23

Q.

So, how would that work?

24

responsible for doing the terminating?

2
3
4

So, the first question related to that, is

Let's say work place

If there's fighting going on among

Who would be

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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103

1

A.

2

the store, the manager would do that.

3

Q.

Okay.

4

A.

Okay.

5

that would beneath him.

6

Q.

7

stacking, what if someone habitually stacks things

8

so high that it's a hazard that it could fall on

9

top of somebody and the person just keeps doing

Well, it depends.

If it was employees in

And if the manager was having --

What about a lesser unsafe act like

10

that?

11

A.

Oh, then they would be written up for that.

12

Q.

That's what I'm asking.

13

A.

Absolutely, sure.

14

Q.

So, who does the writing up?

15

A.

If it was a manager, then I would.

16

Q.

Let's start with an employee.

17

A.

Well, the manager would write up the

18

employee for not following their instructions.

19

Q.

Okay.

20

A.

So, if I go into a store and I see that

21

continuously, now I'm on the manager.

22

manager gets documented that they're not following

23

the instructions to make sure that that's taken

24

care of.

2
3
4

If they continue, yeah.

So, now the

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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1

Q.

2

manager?

3

A.

4
5

104

So, you're the one who would discipline the

Yes.
MR. DOYLE:

Okay.

Those are all

the questions I have for you today.

6

I appreciate you coming down here.

7

Thank you very much.

8

THE WITNESS:

9

MR. DOYLE:

10

13
14
15

Nice meeting you.

appreciate your time.

11
12

Nice meeting you.

- - - - (Whereupon, the witness was
excused.)
- - - - (Whereupon, this deposition was

16

concluded at 11:18 a.m.)

17

- - - - -

18
19
20
21
22
23
24

2
3
4

DelCasale, Casey, Martin & Manchello
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I

1

Ralph Pomponi

1

C E R T I F I C A T I O N

2
3

I hereby certify that the proceedings,

4

evidence and objections noted, are contained fully

5

and accurately in the notes taken by me on the

6

hearing of this matter, and that this copy is a

7

correct transcript of the same.

8
9
10
11
12

______________________________

13

MICHELLE M. TATE
COURT REPORTER

14

NOTARY PUBLIC

15
16
17
18
19
20

(The foregoing certification of this

21

transcript does not apply to any reproduction of

22

the same by any means unless under the direct

23

control and/or supervision of the certifying

24

reporter.)

2
3
4

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