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" ' . u.. { FoR THE NoRTHERN

DrsrRrcr oÈ calrFoRNrA

T R A D E S H O V ü S ,J E S S B . G U Y , ) Case No.: C 99 04389
B A L T E S , D E N N T SB L A I R , R . L . )
) I IE Þ





Sacramento, California

Friday, March I'7 , 2006

Reported by:
Laurie D. Lerda,
CSR No. 3649, CSR
Job No. 680B9A


ffi@pv 800.770.3363
1 Deposition o f R A N D YC . R O S S I , t a k e n o n b e h a l f

¿ of the Plaintiffs at Esqui-re Deposition Services,

3 1801 I Street, First Floor, Sacramento, Cal-ifornia,

4 b e g i n n i n g a t 9 : 0 9 a . m . a n d e n d i n g a t 1 0 : l - 5 â . r n .r o n

5 Friday, March lJ, 2006 before Laurie D. Lerda,

6 Certified Shorthand Reporter No. 3649.


















J For Plaintiff:


B Y : D O N A L DE . J . K I L M E R , J R . , ESQ.

6 I26L Lincoln Avenue, Suite ILt

San Jose, Cal-ifornia 95L25-3030

B (408) 998-8489

For the Defendant:

l-3 BY: RAYMOND L. MacKAY, Deputy County

T4 Counsel-

15 I22t Oak Stréet, Suite 450

L6 Oakland, California9461,2

71 (510) 212-6134


t9 For the Deponent Randy C. Rossi:

20 State of California, Department of Justice


22 Deputy Attorney General_

z5 P. O. Box 160487

24 Sacramento, Cal_Ífornia 9 5 8 j _6 - 0 4 8 7

25 ( 9 r _ 6 )2 6 3 - 0 8 0 2


= BY MR. KTLMER ....5, 40

5 BY MR. MacKAY ....36




1,2 PAGE













I BE IT R E M E M B E R E D ,t h a t on Friday, March Ll, 2006,

Z commencing at the hour of 9:09 a.m. thereof, at the

3 offices of Esquire Deposition Services, 1B0l- I

4 Street, First F1oor, Sacramento, CaJ_ifornia, before

5 rnêr LAURIE D. LERDA, a Certified Shorthand Reporter

6 in and for the County of Sacramento, State of

1 California, there personally appeared


9 Cal-led aS ¿ ¡¡j1-na<q Ìrarain whO, having been firSt

10 duly sworn, was thereupon examined and interrogated

11 as hereinafter set forth.

T2 --oOo--

1-3 (Plaintiff's Exhibit No. A was marked)


1 1
l-J O. Okay. And this is the deposition in the

L6 case of Russell Allen Nordyke versus Mary V. King and

L I the County of Alameda pending in the United States

1B District Court for the Northern District of

t9 California.

¿U This is plaintiff's deposition and I am

2t Donald Kilmer, attorney of record for the

22 plaintiff' s.

23 Ray, you want to go ahead?

z¿l MR. MacKAY: Okay. Ir11 introduce myself.

25 My name is Raymond McKay. frm a Deputy

1 County Counsef with Alameda County Counsef's office.

2 MS. MERRILEES: And Alison Merrilees and I'm

Deputy Attorney General_, counsel for the Fj_rearms

4 Division at the Department of Justice.

5 MR. KILMER: And the deponent today is

6 Randy Rossi.

THE VüITNESS: Randy Rossi, Director of the

B Firearms Division for the Department of Justice.

9 O. BY MR. KILMER: And before we get started,

1-0 Mr. Rossir yoü've had your deposition taken before?

1_1 A. Yes.

I2 A. So you know the ground rules?

t_J A Yoq

1,4 O. Okay. And you have your attorney here with

15 you today?

I6 A. Yes, I do.

t7 O. Okay. And yourre testifying pursuant to a

1B deposition notice issued by the plaintiff's?

19 A. Uh-huh.

ZU O. And your present employer?

2L A. The State of Cal-ifornia Attorney General-'s

z¿ Office.

23 O. And how long have you been employed by them?

24 A. Twenty-five years.

25 MR. MacKAY: Coul-d we put on the record,

1 before you came, Allison, we asked or I asked counsel

¿ a courtesy indicating he'd be willing to do it, if we

3 could just stipulate on the record so it's clear that

4 any objections to the questions such as relevancy

5 except perhaps objection as to form wil-l be reserved

6 and that we don't need to make those types of

objections here today.

B MR. KfLMER: So sti-pul-ated.

9 MR. MacKAY: Are vou comfortabl-e with that?

10 MS. MERRILEES: Are you saying that, would

11 that waive any objection at trial to the form of the

1"2 questi-on if therers no objection today?

MR. MacKAY: I could aqree that all

L4 objections are reserved if counsel is wil-l-ing to do

15 that. I vias thinking of just trying to speed things

I6 along. Irm wÍl-l-ing to adopt a stipulation with that

I1 change. Is that okay as well?

1B MR. KILMER: f think the aqreement has to be

1,9 between you and I anywalt, Ray. Theyrre not a party

20 to this l-awsuit.

21, MR. MacKAY: Is that acceptable?

22 MR. KILMER: So stipul_ated.

¿5 MR. MacKAY: That doesn't prevent you if you

¿4 had a particular objection you wanted to make it, it

25 just al-lows us not t.o interrupt. if we feel- ít's not

1 necessarv.

¿ THE WITNESS: Yourre free to kick me under

3 the tabl-e.

4 MS. MERRILEES: Donrt worrv. Whích one is

5 your bad hip?

6 O. BY MR. KILMER: Al-l- right . Mr . Rossi, what

is your title with the Department of Justice?

B A. Director of the Firearms Division.

9 A. Okay. Any special qualifications for

IU holding that position?

1_1- A. Peace officer. f mean I coul_d go back to

12 the job announcement if that's what vou wj_sh. I

l_5 don' t recal-l- exactJ-y.

1,4 O. Well, I'd like whoever is going to read the

15 deposition and maybe the judge in this case to have

76 some feel- for, you know, your expertise in being in

the position of Firearms Director of the Department

1B of ,Justice.

19 So, if you could tell_ üsr for example, what

20 you did as a peace officer and where?

2I A. Okay. Fi-ve years peace officer for the City

z¿ of San Jose.

23 O. Okay.

¿ 1 A. Special Ialeapons and Tactics with that

25 department. Hired on with the Department of Justice

1 as a special agent narcotics. Because of my SVüAT

2 experience hras involved with their SWAT team

3 activitíes. I worked my way up in the law

enforcement ranks to Bureau Chief in a wide variety

5 of management and l-aw enforcement positions.

6 And in approximately 2000 the Fírearms

I Division was established. The job announcement was

B put out for the Director of the Firearms Division.

9 They hrere looking for somebody with law

t-0 enforcement experience in management as well- as some

l_1_ familíarity with firearms l-aws, procedures,

72 al_ rraf- ara

13 0. And your immediate supervisor woul-d be?

1_4 A. Chief Deputy Attorney General Steve Cooney.

15 O. Okay. And above him?

a a
t_o A. The attorney general.

I1 O. Okay. And your education?

1B A f have a B. A. Desree from Sacramento State

I9 University in críminal- justice; a Masters in

20 management from Caf Poly, command college a

- 1
¿ L certificate from POST.

22 A. Can you please tel-I what POST is?

¿5 A Peace Officer Standards and Traininq.

¿4 That's the hiqhest level of certificate in the State

25 of California.

1 O. I'm sorry, f didn't mean to interrupt.

¿ A. In the State of California for peace

3 officers.

4 O. Are you required to update that training

5 periodically?

6 A Actually in my l-eve1 I'm not.

7 O. All riqht.

B A. But there are qualifier qualif.ications of

9 training that I do keep current on.

10 O. Have you ever testified before as an expert?

11 A. Yes.
'1,2 ô In what area of expertise?

l_J fn narcotics in qeneral- and cl-andestine l-ab

L4 enforcement, desi-gner drugs, organized crime,

15 firearms.

1_6 O. AIJ- right. So you have testified as an

7l expert with respect to firearms?

1ö A. Yes, sir.

19 O. AII right. What are your responsibitities

¿v as the Dinector of the Firearms Division of the

2L Department of Justice?

22 A. To oversee the enforcement regulatory

23 responsibil-ities as they rel-ate to firearm, firearm

24 safety, firearm law enforcement, background check

25 processes for dangerous weapon and explosive

1 permittees, fírearm purchasers, firearm dealers,

2 et cetera.

3 0. And as part of those responsibil-ities you

4 have to be familiar wÍth state and federa.l_ firearm

5 laws ?

6 A. Yes.

O. And regul-ations?

B A. Yes.

9 O. Al-1 right. I want to narrow the focus of

t_0 your broad range of knowledge to just gun shows for a

11 little bit here.

I2 A. Okay.

13 O. One thing I woul-d l-ike to do initial-l-y is

1 = discuss a concept that has come up in this case.

l-5 Are you famil-íar with the concept gun show

76 loophole?

1,7 A. Yes.

1_B O. What does that term mean to vou'Ì

T9 A. Well, to me it typically refers to a

20 loophole that j-s more common in other states than

21, this state where firearm Þurchases occur without the

22 benefit of a backqround check.

z5 O. Now, when you say that they occur in other

24 states and not California, why is that?

25 A In Cal-ifornia different from manv states the

1 whet.her it I s a ner^rfirearm purchase or private party

¿ transfer, those transfers must occur through a, not

3 just a federally, but a state lícensed firearm

4 dealer, therefore, the background check is fully

5 carried out.

6 O. Now, there's background checks in

California. There's al-so a waiting period; isn't

B there?

9 A. Correct.

1_0 O. Okay. So in California all_ gun purchases

11 must go through a licensed dealer which incl_udes a

72 background check and a waiting period?

IJ A. Correct.

L4 O. Is there an exception for qun shows in

15 California?
T6 A. An exception. Not that lrm aware of.

I I a. Okay. So, for exampfe, I'm just going to

1B use a hypothetical here.

L9 ff two people are in the State of Nevada,

20 for example, I'm not asking you to be an expert in

ZL Nevada Iaw, but two people are in the state of Nevada

22 and one person admires another personfs gun and says

23 Ird l-ike to buy that from you, as far as you know,

24 ther:e I s nothing that prevents them from, you know,

25 conducting that transaction?

! A. General-l-y speaking that's correct.

2 I believe if somebody is known to be a felon

to the sel-ler I bel-ieve there is some prohibitions or

responsibility on the part of the sell_er. But,

5 generally speaking, as far as the background check,

6 rror there's no prohibitions.

0. All right. Thank you. But in the State of

B California if private parti-es wanted to conduct a

9 transaction like that, they would stitl be required

10 to go to a fj-censed dealer to conduct thac

t_l- transaction?

72 MR. MacKAY: Legally.

1_3 A. BY MR. KILMER: Legally.

t4 A. That is correct legaIIy.

15 0. In order to be in the business of buying and

16 selling firearms in California, what are the

1,7 requirements ?

1B A. In order to be in business you have to have

T9 a federal- firearms l-icense. You have to have a local

20 license if reguj-red. You have to be on the

2t centralized líst which is a background check by the

22 part of the State of Cal-ifornia and you have to be

¿J registered with the Franchise Tax Board.

24 O. I want to narrow the focus for a second here

25 to just federal- law. You mentioned somethi_nq cal__Ied

1 a federal f j-rearms l-icense. Are there any other

Z federal- licenses that would permit somebody to engage

f in firearms transactions?

A. Other federal- licenses in an FFL. There's

5 different cl-assifications of FFL's, but not that I'm

6 al^/afe Of .

1 0. If m thinking more along l_ike a col_lectors

B li-cense like a curio relic license. And what are

9 those for?

1_0 A. Irm -- f 'm not an expert i_n the various

11_ nuances of federal law. Generally I bel_ieve it's for

L2 curio and relic and col-l-ection and repair, but that' s

1-3 my general understanding.

I4 O. Then I guess I really wanted to jump next to

1_5 state l-aw. Does California have a counterpart to

16 that or is there just one license for dealing

1,1 firearms in Cal-ifornia?

1_B A. There is there's generally one license,

L9 but therers different permits depending upon what

20 types of firearms yourre selling.

21, For instance, automatic weapon permit, sel_l

22 \^reapon permit versus typical hand quns and long guns,

z5 so there are differences.

24 0. Okay. But therers a threshol-d l-icenses or

'l 'ij-
25 certif icate of el i oi h'i rz --

1 A. Correct.

2 0. that all Californi-a deal-ers have to have

3 to be in the business of selling firearms; is that

4 correct?

A. That's correct.

6 A. Vühat are the f mentioned a term there

cafl-ed a certificate of eligibility. fs that the

B correct name for a l-icense to sel_] quns in

9 Cal-if ornia?

1_0 A. Yes. Once vou have a certificate of

11 eligibility you're on the central_ized l_ist which is

I2 reall-y the umbrel-l-a, íf you wiIl, that witl ensure

13 that you meet the other three reguirements.

I4 0. What are those requj_rements?

15 A. Thatrs the city l-icense that's required, the

76 Franchise Tax reguirement and the federal firearm

1,7 l-icense, once you have that, plus a certificate of

1B eligibility, yourre on the central_ized l_ist.

I9 Is there anything that a dealer has to do

20 other than have a federal firearms l_icense, be

2T regj-stered with the Franchise Tax Board and comply

22 with l-ocal rules, is there anything extra that

¿J California reguíres to qet that certificate of

24 eJ-igibility?

25 A. Not to get the certificate of eligibility.

1 0. Okay. Sor âny reguirements of building

z security and fi-xed location or insurance, those are

3 imposed by 1ocal

4 A. No. Those are imposed by 1oca1 law, but

there there their responsibility must be

6 adhered to, but not necessarily directÌy related to

1 the centralized líst.

B Once yourre a fu1ly l-icensed firearm dealer,

9 then those requirements kick in and through our

1_0 inspection process, üre ensure that those things are

11 followed.

72 0. Is there a l-icensj-ng requirement to host or

13 hold a gun show in Cafifornia?

74 A. Yes.

15 A. Okay. And the authority for that is in the

76 Penal- Code I take it?

I I A. Tt is.

1B O. Now, you said that you applied for and b/ere

t9 appointed to Dírector of Firearms Division for

20 Cal-ifornÍa Department of Justice around the year

2L 2000?

22 A. Uh-huh.

23 O. That's the same year that the Gun Show

24 Enforcement Act was passed in the tegislature; wasn't

25 ir?

1 A A8295, yes.

2 O. Are you familiar with that statute?

3 A Yes.

4 ô V[hat would be a good working definition of a

5 gun shohr?

6 A It's a place by which the generaÌ public can

attend a venue whereby firearms are dísplayed and

I often transferred throuqh the benefit of l_icensed

9 f irearm deal-ers.

1_0 0. Okay. And so in addition to the FFL, the

11 Franchise Tax Board, the loca1 ordinances and the

t2 certificate of eligibility, in order to hold a gun

13 show, somebody also has to comply with the Gun Show

T4 Enforcement Act?

15 Yes.

L6 Irm going to I don't expect you to know

L1 what all- the requJ-rements are, but I'm going to

t-B unless you do know what all the reguiremenrs are.

L9 Not all- of them. Probably most of them.

20 I'm going to go ahead and show you some

Z I statutory 1aw from the 2006 Edition of Standard

22 Calj-fornia Codes, the Éenat Code from Lexis-Nexis.

23 I'm going to open it up to penal Code

24 Section 12071,.4, the Gun Show Enforcement and

25 Security Act, and give that to you.

1 A. Okay.

2 A. And if you can when you're ready recite what

3 are some of the requirements in addition to just

4 being a standard dea.l-er that a gun show must comply

5 with to be l-awful-l-v li-censed in California?

6 A. Okay. Generally a person cannot carry out a

gun show unless they have a certificate by us,

U certificate of eligibility as a gun show promoter.

9 0. Let me stop you there for a second. That's

10 a different certificate of eligibility than being a

11 deal-er?

t2 A. f t I s the same l-evel- of scruti-ny , if you

13 will, but it's a different cl_assifj_cation.

t4 O. AII right. Thank you.

15 A. To do so they have to certify that they are

16 famil-iar with t h e 1 2 0 ' 7 1 . 1 -p r o v i s i o n s ; that they have

1.1 a miflion do1lar liability policy; they provide us a

1_B listing of events that they intend to host during

T9 that vear.

¿v Before they have such an evenL, the promoter

2L provides us a of individuals who intend to

22 transact firearms. We do a check on those people to

z5 ensure that they are fully l_icensed and able to carry

24 out firearms transactions.

25 MS. MERRILEES: Coul-d we iust stioul-ate that

1 1 " 2 0 1 1 , . 4p r o v i d e s the general rul-es and requirements

2 for hosting a gun show without him reciting those.

3 O. BY MR. KILMER: I think it's important that

4 wê, whoever is going to read this testimony

understands what's required of the gun show promoters

6 because Mr. Rossi- is required to make sure that

lu- ¡hr çaJr ¡ l r a! ' içn rrr ¡v n

v lm
l r ynr] ri q l: l nu ç¡ a .

B Then Irm going to ask him some questions

9 later whether or not my clients are in compliance. f

10 think itrs important to establish that he knows what

11 they're required to do before we can say whether or

72 not my cl-ients are complying.

1_3 A. Okay. There are also a number of

L4 requirements relating to how the producer carries out

15 the facility. There's a security plan that must be

1 -
l_o submitted to law enforcement. A copy of that plan is
a -
L I submÍtted to us. Those show f think, I shouldn't say

1B I think I guess, the estj-mated number of vendors and

1,9 I think the number of attendees, exits, entrances,

20 their locations, dates, times of shows, contact

2I person, teJ-ephone numbers, a number of peace officers

22 that are going to be there and security personnel.

23 Thatrs all part of the event security plan

z4 that must be submitted not l-ess than fift.een davs

25 prior to the commencementof the gun show. It shall

1 be approved by the facility manager prior to the

2 event. The producer is also responsible for

informing prospective gun show vendors of these, of

4 the requirements of L2071-.4.

5 I mentioned that they provide to us a

6 listing of i-ndividual-s who are going to be carrying

out firearm transactions. Their responsibility

B involves insuring that if they do not meet these

9 reguirements that they not, they, the dealers, may

10 not participate in the event.

1_1 They shal-I the producers should have

t2 written contracts with all gun show vendors. There's

1-3 a signed posting requirement that's required on the

1 /l part
f,= of the producer. That the firearms carried onto

1_5 the premises are checked, cl-eared of any ammunition

16 and secured in a manner that prevents the discharge

1"1 of the fi-rearm and an identification taq is attached

1B to the fi-rearm.

t9 There's al-so a requirement that no member of

20 the public under the age of 18 may attend without

2! accompaniment by a parent, grandparent or legal

22 guardian. That firearm transfers between private

¿3 parties are conducted through a l-icensed dealer.

z¿r That persons possessing fj-rearms on the premise must

25 have in their possession, immediat.e possession a

1 government issued photo identification and display it

2 upon request to the security officer or

3 peace of f i-cer.

4 That the gun show producer shall post j-n a

5 readily vÍsible location at each entrance to the

6 parking lot stating that transfers of fi-rearms on

parking l-ot of this facility is a crime. Those are

B the general requirements of 1,201L.4.

9 O. Sorry to put you through that.

10 A. That's okav.

11 A. I just want to put it on the record.

L2 As part of your duties as Director of the

1-3 Firearms Division, do you send out personnel with the

I4 Department of Justice to ensure that gun shows are

1_5 complying with these rules?

t6 A. We do.

11 O. Thank you. Have you ever personally gone

l-õ out and inspected shows to ensure compliance?

l-9 A. Yes.

¿v O. What are the usual venues for the gun shows

2t that you know about or have been to yourself?

22 A. Theyrre often g6¡nr-rz fa¡ilir-iaq such as

23 county fair buildíngs.

24 O. Okay.

25 A. There are some private venues as well, but

1 generally they're on city or county property.

¿ O. Okay. Are you familiar with Russ and Sal-lie

3 Nordyke?

4 A. Yes, I am.

5 0. Have you ever been to any of their shows?

6 A. I don't believe I have personally.

O. Have you sent personnel to their shows to

B ensure compliance?

9 A. Yes.

10 O. Are you aware of any violations by the

11 Nordykes of some of the requirements that you recited

I2 earlier?

13 A. As far as promoter requirements, Do.

L4 0. Do the Nordykes as far as you know are they

15 cooperative wÍth l-aw enforcement in the event that

t6 there's somebody doing something ilIegally at their

L1 shows ?

1_B A. As far as Irm aware they are.

1_9 O. Have you ever attended any gun shows outside

20 of the State of California?

2L A. Yes, I have.

22 0. Vühat other states have attended gun shows

ZJ at?

24 A. Nevada.

25 0. Are thev different than the ones in

I California ?

Z A. Yes, they are.

3 O. Can you tell me what some of the differences

4 zra2

5 A. Private party transactions are very common

6 without the benefit of a Joackqroundcheck. Therers

1 much less oversight on the part of Ìaw enforcement

B and security personnel.

9 The weapons and paraphernalia are, many

10 items would be i1legal under California law and some

1_1 under federal law. There tends to be more of a

1,2 radical- el-ement as f ar as hate materials. Just much

13 less control-.

L4 0. Do you know whether or not some of the guns

that are bought and sold at these gun shows of Nevada

I6 end up coming back into California?

71 A. Yes, we know some do.

1B 0. Okay. I donrt want you compromise any

1_9 investigations or anything like that, but sor is

ZU it that people who live in California go to the

21" Nevada shows because they're unregulated?

22 MS. MERRILEES: Can vou answer that about

ZJ why people go?

24 THE WITNESS: ft would require some

¿3 speculation.

1 O. BY MR. KILMER: That's fine. frm entitled

¿ to your best answer. You can call_ it specul_ation if

3 you hrant'

4 MR. MacKAY: Obiection. Calls for

5 specul-ation.

6 THE WITNESS: It appears in that the shows

are much further in distance from the Cal_ifornia

B shows that the motivation must be to secure firearms

9 and paraphernalia that aren't availabl_e in

' i
10 California.
11 O. BY MR. KILMER: Uh-huh. So, f don't want to

T2 go so far to say that the shows in Nevada are

l_J unregulated, but they are certainl_y less regulated

1"4 than the shows in Cal-ifornía?

15 A. Yes.

76 O. So in fact Nevada gun shows may be a source

t'7 of illegal firearm trafficking in California?

1B A. Vüe have found that to be the case.

t9 O. And in fact would it be reasonabl-e to

20 theorize that a reduction in the number of l-eqitimate

27 gun shows in California may in fact cause people to

22 go to Nevada to try and get engaged in the commerce

z5 of firearms?

z4 MR. MacKAY: fncomplete hypothetical, calls

25 for speculation.

.L A. BY MR. KILMER: ff you understand what I

2 said you can try and answer the question, otherwise,

3 f'll- try and rephrase the question.

4 A. I understand what vou said and f'd have to

5 speculate to answer your question.

6 A. Okay. I rm entitled to that.

I MR. MacKAY: No, yourre not. I disagree.

B O. BY MR. KfLMER: You can object later and the

9 judge can sustain it, but you can give me your best

10 ansh/er.

11 ^ In that gun shows afford private parties a

1,2 means to sel-l- and transfer firearms in a convenient

13 fashion. Vüithout such shows I woul-d speculate that

T4 some people woul-d go out of state to offload their

15 firearms and to whife there likely purchase firearms.

Okay. Are you ar^rare of any -- strike that.

1 1 Ird l-ike get gun

to back to California

1B dealers in general and, of course, I'm speaking about

L9 people who comply with the Iaw.

¿U Are they an important part of ensuring that

2I people in California comply with the Cal-ifornia gun

22 l-aws ?

ZJ ^ They are.

¿4 o. Okay. You mentioned earlier, for example,

25 properly licensed and operating gun dealers make it

I easÍer for private parti-es to buy and sell guns?

2 A. Uh-huh.

3 O. Vüith the waiting periods and background

4 checks ?
A. Correct.

6 o. In fact, since you can't put a field agent

in every gun dealer in Cal-ifornia, it is the dealer

B himsel-f that ensure proper f .D. and proper age and

9 proper col-lection of paperr^rork for a fi-rearms

l_0 transaction; is that correct?

11 A. Correct. Along wj-th our inspection staff

L2 that do subsequent investigations, yês.

l_3 O. I guess what I mean is that your field

t4 agents go out and, for instance, audit or inspect

15 periodically deal-ers to make sure they're complyíng?

T6 A. Uh-huh.

L7 O. But the everyday transactions that take

1_B pl-ace are pretty much the responsibility of the

L9 dealers to make sure that the laws are being complied

ZU with?

2L A. Correct.

22 O. That would include that the deal-er ensuring

23 that the firearm can be lawfullv sold in Cal-ifornia?

24 A. Uh-huh.

25 O. These deal-ers also take fingerprints for the

1 transaction, correct, I think a thumb print; correct?

z A. Uh-huh.

3 O. Arenrt the dealers al-so required to

4 demonstrate safe handlinq of fj_rearms before the

5 transaction is concluded, for instance, to show

o people how a revolver or a hand gun work?

1 A. They are in both venues, yês.

B O. And the authority for that is in the Pena.l-

9 Code?

10 A. Correct.

11 O. Vühen you say both venues, what do you mean

L2 þrr¡ 1-haf?

IJ A f meant gun shows as well- as the dealerships

L4 themselves.

15 0. Okay. fs it possible for somebody to

T6 demonstrate the safe handling of a firearm, for

t1 instance, how to check it that it's unloaded, how to

1_B insert and remove the magazine without having the

t9 firearm present?

20 A I don't bel-ieve so. Not as far as a ful-L

2T demonstration of safety feacures.

22 a. Letrs I'm going to impose upon your eyes

z5 and the smal-l- type here again, and I'm g-oing to

24 direct your attention to Penaf Code Section 1,2071 and

25 I bel-ieve beginning about here and take a few minutes

1 to read it. Therers a descrj-ption of the procedures

2 for demonstrating the safe handting of hand guns.

3 A. Okay.

4 0. You seemed a l-ittle unsure of the last

q question. You said you believe that it woul_dn't be

6 possible, would not be possible to perform the

7 demonstration required by the statute without the gun

B present

9 MR. MacKAY: That misstates his testimonv.

10 O. BY MR. KILMER: Can you please restate your

11 testimony?

I2 A. Yes. Irm sorry, I didn't know you were

t_J referring to this. I thought you just meant

L4 generally demonstrating the safe handling of a

15 firearm would be very difficult unl-ess you just had a

1"6 massive amount of, you know, computer graphics,

1'7 et cetera.

1B O. Okay.

I9 A. ff yourre referring to this specifically, if

20 you could repeat your question.

2I O. Irm referring to this specific Penal Code

22 Section 1201L, and l-et me see if I qet the

23 subsections correct here because this is a l_onq

24 ql-:i-rrIa

25 I believe it's P e n a l - C o d e 1 , 2 0 7 1 -B B ,

1 Subsection B, Subsection C. Okav. Those

2 requirements are the ones that I'm referrinq to.

3 A Okay. Great.

4 O. Would it be possible to demonstrate or to

comply with the requirements there without having a

6 gun present?


B Okay. Thank you.

9 And getting back to deal_ers and how they are

1_0 part of the ensuri-ng compliance with Cal_if ornia laws.

1_1 Deal-ers also administer hand gun safe tests, don't

)-z l-hor¡?

l_J Uh-huh.

L4 O. They also col-lect affidavits from purchasers

15 to ensure that there are gun safes for guns at the

I6 personts home?

I1 A Uh-huh, yes.

1B ô It's against the Iaw in Cal-ifornia I believe

L9 under federal law, too, to buy or sell a gun with an

20 obliterated seria] number; is that correct?

2L That I s correct.

22 O. That woul-d be another instance where a clun

ZJ woul-d have to be present during the transaction to

24 ensure that the serial_ numbers hrere intact?

25 A Correct.

f, I'm going to ask you to take a l-ook at

z Exhibit A. fts been previously marked. And let me

3 know when youtre done

4 Okay.

5 Okay. Vühat f 'm showing you is the ordinance

6 that is the subject of this l-awsuj_t. It was passed

1 by Alameda County in 1999. This is actually the

B amended version, the one that is in force riqht now.

9 ffd ask you to review Subsection Dt the

1_0 definition of firearm. And this definition of

11 firearm under this ordinance doesn't appear to make

L2 an exception for antiques, curios and reli-cs, does

1_3 ir?

I4 A It doesnrt appear e^

15 a. The definition of firearms under state 1aw

L6 somewhat narrobrer than the definition under this

I1 ordinance, isnrt it?

1_B Yes.

1,9 I mean, for example, state law doesnrt

20 classify an antique revol-utionary war fl-intlock as

27 firearm, does it?

22 A It defines i t separately, yes.

¿J r\ Okay. Have you ever seen this ordinance

z.! before?

25 A f have not

I O. Do you know whether or not other counties

2 have passed similar ordinances?

A. I believe some have.

4 0. Okay. Do you remember testifying before the

5 San Mateo Board of Supervisors?

6 A. Yes, I do.

O. V ü h e nt h e y w e r e a t t e m p t i n g to pass this other

B ordinance?

9 A. Uh-huh.

10 O. Can you recount for us the substance of your

1_1 testimony to the Board of Supervisors, just a

L2 qrznnnq'i q ?

1_3 A. The substance of my testimony was to attempt

1,4 to convey how the State of California regul-ates and

15 controls our involvement in gun shows from both the

L6 regulatory standpoint and enforcement standpoint and

I1 compare that to that of a California firearm deal-er

t_B that may be operating out of a store front setting.

LY 0. Uh-huh. And the purpose of giving that

20 testimony was?

21, A. ülas to try to ensure that the, that those

22 making the decision woul-d be fulJ-y informed, more

23 fully informed as to any control-s or l-ack of controls

24 that may be associated with havi-ng gun shows in their

25 counry.

L O. Did you express any opínion to the Board of

2 Supervisors in San Mateo Countv as to whether or not

3 their ordinance hras necessarv to ensure gun safetv?

4 MR. MacKAY: Objection, vague.

à O. BY MR. KILMER: It is a vague question.

6 A. f donf t ra¡al I nitri¡g any recommendation one

I way or the other.

B a. okay.

9 A. My purpose was to convey to them the ru1es,

10 regulations and l-aws concerning gun show sales.

1_1 O. Okay. As part of your duties as the head of

1,2 the Firearms Division of the California Department of

t_J Justicer yoü al-so regulate firearms for entertainment

I4 purposes, dontt you?

15 A. Uh-huh.

I6 O. For instance

I1 A. Yes.

1B O. used as props in motion picture and

79 television production?

¿U A. Yes.

2I 0. Okay. What are some of the regulations

22 regarding firearms for entertainment purposes and how

¿5 are they different than the regulations regarding gun

¿4 shows?

25 MR. MacKAY: Objection, vague, overbroad.

1 MS. MERRILEES: You want to take a minute.

Z T H E V I ] T N E S S: Yeah, I probabJ_y should. I 'm

3 not -- I woufd have to refresh my memory on the

4 a. BY MR. KILMER: Let me withdraw the question

5 and f rl-1 try a different line of guestion.

6 Firearms that are used in motion picture and

video productions pretty much are owned by the

B studios and their possession of exotic weapons for

9 lack of a better word are highly regulated, but then

10 the actors and the participants in the motion picture

11 are l-oaned those weapons as part of their job of

L2 acting.

13 MR. MacKAY: Objection. I,m sorry, f didn,t

L4 mean to interrupt. Go ahead and finish. I thought

15 you were done.

L6 A. BY MR. KILMER: But the State of California

L7 regulates that event and those transactions; is that

1B correct?

1,9 MR. MacKAY: O bj e c t j _ o n . There I s at l_east

20 four questions there. So, I would ask you to break

2T it down because it is compound

22 O. BY MR. KILMER: Okay. Do motion picture

z5 studios use firearms in motion pictures and

24 tel-evision productions ?

25 A. Yes.

1 0. And they sometimes l - e n d t h o s e quns to the

¿ actors and the participants in the shows in order to

3 advance a storv l-ine?

4 A. Yes. Usually through a prop master.

5 O. And the State of Cal_ifornia requl_ates that

6 activity; is that correct?

A. Yes.

B O. Okay. How does -- how does the State of

9 California requlate that activity?

10 I'd have to refresh mv memorv.

11 Okay. That's fine.

IZ MR. KILMER: Vüe'lI qo off the record.

J-J (Off the record discussion)

I4 BY MR. KILMER: Vrle're back on the record.

15 And the witness was refreshinq his

L6 recoll-ection regarding my l_ast question with the

1,1 CalÍfornia Penal Code that we referred to earl_ier.

1B I guess I need to repeat my question and

19 I'l-l refine it somewhat.

20 There is a set of regulations or statutory

2t J - a wr e g u l a t i n g the possession and use of firearms in

22 connection with motion picture and tel_evision

23 production; is that correct?

24 Correct.

25 And you've refreshed your recollection as to

1 what some of those requirements are by readi-ng that

¿ statute?

3 A Correct.

4 0. Can you give me a synopsis as to what some

6 of those reguJ-ations are?

6 A. Yes. f reviewed Penal Code Section 1"2081-

7 that relates to the loaning of firearms for the use

B in motion picture theatrical_ productions and

9 gienerally speaking it says someone over the age of 2L

10 may apply for a permit by the Department of Justice

11 and generally speaking that enables the Department of

T2 Justice to checl< our systems to ensure that they're

13 not prohibited from possessing firearms, that once

1,4 approved this would enable them to possess firearms

15 loaned to him or her for the production of motion

1"6 picture television or theatrical productj_on.

I7 O. So, although itrs for a different purpose,

1B there are similar requirements to holding a gun show

1,9 and for havj-ng a permit for loaning a firearm for

20 television and motion picture production.

2I Vüou1d that be a fair statement?

22 A. Similar.

23 O. If you could take a l-ook at Exhibit A again.

24 f'd like you to look at subsection -- off the record.

25 (Off the record)

1 O. BY MR. KILMER: We're back on the record.

z I 'd like you to take a l-ook at Subsection F,

5 Subsection four.

4 Now, this ordinance purports to have an

exception for the possession of guns on county

6 property for moti-on picture, television, vj_deo, dance

l and theatrical production.

B In your opinion, somebody woul_d still have

9 to comply with the Penal- Code Section L2081 though in

10 order to still- lawfully engage in the loaning of

11 firearms for moti-on picture and tel_evision

T2 producti-on; is that correct?

13 A. That's my opinion.

I4 O. Mr. Rossi, do you personally col_l_ect

l r
IC firearms as a hobbv?

L6 A. I do not.

77 0. You do not. Okav.

1_B MR. KILMER: No further questions.


ZU 0. Good morning, Mr. Rossi.

2t As I said earlier, my name is Raymond McKay.

22 I represent the defendants in this case.

¿J Irm Deputy County Counsel- with Alameda

24 County, County Counsel's Office. I do have a few

25 follow-up questions. And the only admonition,

1 counsel might have mentioned it earlier, because I

z don't purport to be an expert in firearms¡ sor if I

3 ask a question you don't understand, you just let me

4 know and Irl-l- try to do better. Okay?

A. Great. Thank you.

6 A. You were asked some questions about gun show

I venues. You mentioned some typical venues including

B county and city fair buildings and property and

9 private venues.

10 I wanted to ask you what are you referring

11 to when you mentJ-on private venues?

L2 A In some l-ocales gun shows are held at

13 private facilities such as T befieve one is at a

1"4 Veterans of Foreign Vùar Memorial hal-t and there are a

15 few others.

16_ O. Okay.

t'7 A Thatrs what I was referring to.

1_B O. And those occur in the State of California?

19 A. They do.

20 O. You were asked a question about, again I

21" have to follow-up so sometimes I have to refer to

22 earl-ier question, if f mj-sstate it, again correct me.

23 But I think the testj-mony r^ias you were asked

24 about whether or not there were any vj_olations by the

25 Nordykes in connection, either in connection with the

I Nordykes or their gun shows and you said no promoter

2 violations. That prompted me to think of a


4 Vüere there other viol_ations other than

5 promoter violatj-ons that you're aware of?

6 A. I rm aware of a few instances where as a

result of our investi-qative efforts arresrs were

B made.

9 O. fn connection with the Nordvke event?

t_0 A. f bel-ieve so. I woul-d have to check for

11 specific details.

1 a
L L A. If yourre abl-e to meaning again with the

IJ same admonition, counsel, f don't want to compromise

L4 an ongoing investigation or any other privilege that

1-5 may be out there, but if you're able to tel_l üsr can

L6 you qive me any more j-nformation about those arrests

L1 that occurred during the Nordyke event?

1B For example, was it at a Nordyke gun show?

L9 A. I would have to get back to you on that.

20 O. You were asked about 72011 of the Penal- Code

2t and some sections and whether the actual physical gun

22 r^/as necessary to do or display or show those

23 educatj-on or safety requirements.

24 And you said for one of the provisions you

25 would need an actual physical possession of a qun

1 itsel-f ; correct?

z Correct.

3 My follow-up question: Are there safety or

a educational provisi-ons in 1,2071that could be

5 demonstrated, conveyed or otherwise shown without a

6 gun? Itrs essentially the converse of what you were

1 asked earlier.

B A. f wouÌd have to refer to L2071 to see if a

9 certaj-n provision of safety testing is in that

10 section.

11 O. Okay. Could you -- would you look at that

t2 provision if you feel you can to maybe give me one

l_J example of one of the provisi_ons that coul_d be again

I4 met or satisfied without the actual physical gun

15 present?

1_6 A Qrr ra

L1 O. Okay. Thank you.

t_B THE VüITNESS: Could we so off record?

19 MR. MacKAY: Sure.

20 (Off-the-record discussion) .

2T O. BY MR. MacKAY: Vrle're back on the record.

22 Mr. Rossi, let. me then rephrase the question

z5 in this r^ray: Are there provisions in the penal Code

¿¿l about education regarding the use of hand quns that

25 coul-d be fol-l-owed or met without the ."trr.f

1 possession of the gun?

¿ A. There are some aspects relating to safe

3 storage, general rul_es of firearm safety, hand gun

4 safety that could be carried out without the use of a

hand gun.

6 O. And what Irl_l_ l_abel the hands on

requirements for education that's somethi-ng that

B coul-d be done at any time before the transaction is

9 completed incl-uding the waiting period.

10 Is that a fair statement as well?

11 A. Woul_d you repeat that.

1"2 a. Yes.

13 Vühat f rve call-ed the hands on portJ_ons of

74 the educational process

1 q A. Uh-huh.
O. thatf s somethj-ng that coul_d be completed,

t7 it doesn't necessarily have to be completed at the

1B time of the sa1e, but can be completed at any time

1,9 before delivery?

¿U A. Correct.

21" O. okay.

22 MR. MacKAY: Those were my foltow-up

23 questions. Thank you, sir.


25 You stated in response to Mr Mr.T{a rr I q

1 questi-on that you don't remember a particul_ar event,

z but that you think that there r^rere some arrests made

3 based upon investigations conducted at the Nordyke

4 show?

5 A. Correct.

6 O. Okay. Vüere these investigatj_ons, were these

7 for things that Ì^rere originated at the gun show?

B A. I bel_i-eve so.

9 0. Okay. And what was the variety of activity

l_0 that was observed that l_ater l-ed to an arrest?

1l- A. You know, Ird prefer real_l_y getting the

I2 facts. If my memory serves me, I didn't specifícally

13 check, there were a few incidents arising from some

t_ ¿t of what I I l-l cal-l- the Nordyke shows

15 O. Uh-huh.

16 A. that resul-ted in criminal prosecutions,

L7 but I donrt have specifíc knowledge. I didntt

1_B specifically l-o.ok j-nto that before comíng here.

1.9 O. I'm going to describe a scenario and you can

20 tel-l- me if t.his helps you remember what happened.

Z I This was somebody who was at a gun show as a

22 vendor or perhaps a patron and perhaps an undercover

z5 agent observed some activitv and then that led to an

24 i-nvestJ-gation that eventualfy fed to an arresr.

25 A. Yes.

1 O. Okay. So it's highly likely that that

z investigatj-on and that law enforcement activity may

3 never have taken place if there wasn't a gun show?

4 ^ Correct.

6 O. So in that instance the presence gun

of the

6 show and the presence of the agent at the gun show is

1 what helped or aided l_aw enforcement in prosecuting

B that crimei is that correct?

9 A Correct.

10 MR. KILMER: Thank you. Nothing further.

11 MR. MacKAY: Thank you.

1,2 THE WTTNESS: Thank you.

13 (Whereupon the deposition c o n c l _ u d e da t 1O:15 a.m.)



I6 --oOo--










1 Pursuant to Sectj-on 2025 (q) (1) of the Code of

Z Civil Procedure of the State of California, I hereby

3 certify that. I have read my deposition transcript,

4 made those changes and correcti-ons that f deem

5 necessary, and approve the same as nor^/ true and

6 ^^v5^^1-
U V I I g U L .

I Dated this day of , 2006.


1 n
a 1















2 f cerËify thaË the r,¡itness in the foregoíngr
3 deposítion,

5 was by ne dury shtorn to testify in the within-entitred

6 eause; that said deposit,ion was taken at the tine and
7 place tl.erein named.; Ëhat the testimony of said. r¡itness
I uas report'ed by me, a duly certif ied shorthand. Reporter
9 of the sËate of car-ifornia authorized to administer
l-o oaths and. affirmatÍoni and said t'estinony was
L1 thereafËer transcribed. into typer-riting.
L2 r further certify that r au not of counsel nor
L? attorney fcr eit,her or any of the partåes to said.
L4 deposition' nor Ín any way inËerested. in the outcome of
1-5 the causê naned in said deposition.
16 rN Ìr-rrN'ss T{rrEREoF, r have 'ereunto set ny hand
L7 this 54 dalz of APAtc 2006.



State of California



Pagell,tue t'rom To

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That theOrdinance 9gd" of the Counþ of Alamedashallbe amendedby rèvisingSection

to readas follows:
of Firearmson county propertyprohlblted

(a) Flndlngs.The Boardof Supervisors findsthatgunshotfatalitiesand inJuries

are of
epidemicproportionsin AlamedaCounty.Duringthefirstfiveyearsotifre lggo's 8Zg
hbmicides werê'committed usingfireàrms,and an additionall,eql victimswere
injuries. Firearmsarethe leadingcauseof deathamong
young'people Ue!"çlllte agesof 15 and24 InAtameda Cbunty.BetweenJuty1; 1996
and June30, 1997,l36juvenileswerearrestedin Oaklandfor gun-related offeñses.On
July4, 1998a shootingIncidentonthe AlamedaCountyFairgrounds resuftedín several
gunshotwounds,otherinjuriesand panicsmongfairgóers. Þroh[bitíngthe possession
of firearmson Countyproperlywíllpromotethe publichealthand safetyby contributingto

(b) Misdemeanor.Everypersonwho bríngsontoor possesses on Countypropertya

firearm,loaded'orunloaded,or ammunitíon ..
for a firearmis gulltyof a misdemeanor.
'(c) .CountyProperty.As usedin thissectlon,the termCountypropertymeansreat'.
. property,includingany buildingsthereon,ownedor.leasedÞ Countyof Alameda
'(hereinafter"County'),and in the County'spossession, or in ih.epossesi¡onof.apublíc
or privateentityundercontractwiththe Countyto performa pubiicpurpose,includingbut
notlímitedto realpropertyownedor leasedby theiCor.lnty in the unlncorporated
incôrporated portionsof the County,suchas the Countyparkin SunolandtheAlameda
Cglnty Fairgrounds '
In the.Cityof Pleasanton,
but doesnot includeany "local.public
bulldlng"as definedin PenalCodeSectlon171b(c),wherethe Stateregulates
. possession of firearmspursuantto penalCodeSectlon111b.
(d) Firearm.uFirearmn is any gun,pistol,revolver,rifleor any.device, designedor modified
to be usedâs e weapon,fromwhichis expelledthrougha barrel?rprojectileby theforce
. . ' of àn explosion or otherformof combustion.'Flrearm:doesnot ¡näuáe.¡m¡tation
firearmeor BBgunsand air rifles'asdefinedín Goverriment CodeSectíon53071.5.
(e) Ammqnition."Ammunitlon'ls
as definedin PenalCodeSeðtlon

(f) Exceptlons.Subsection9.12.12O(b) doesnot applyto the'foilowíng:

(1) A p€aceofficeras definedin Title3, Part2, Chapter4.5 of the California
' penatCode(sections 930et seg.);
i (2) a guardor mess€ngéíór a financial
operating an armored institution.
a guardof a contractcanier
ã.¡¡""nsuäãr¡äte i¡vestigator]patrof
company operator,
or uniiorm'âd:"it;{yil;d as.these operator,or alàrm
Penal'code sectlon12031(d) occupations are definedin
' a¡d whoñ"iJ.; var¡¿ cert¡R-ca-tã'¡ãäued
of consumer AffairsunderÞånál C"äã*ãärr 1203g, theDepartment
' engaged in protecting
andpreserving prrp.rtyor nr"wùrri^ln"ràp, of his and
or her
"to'"lË-lÏqî:91 hotdins u.";r;*r" a rirearmissuedpursuan*openal
Codesectioni2050; " "o,o
usesthefirearmaspartof tha-t #,:rili i,1"ï3;¡,:ffiíi
Û,ut*n"n suchfirearmis.
notIn theactualposses'sion
orirre.uittò¡=ø particlþant,
use. iti" to prevent
(5) A personlawfutly
ì-r ---"-v fireaims
County roads;
.rvq' or ammunítionin a rirotorvehicle
A personlawfullyusingthe targetrangeoperated
sheriff;(6) by the Atamedacouniy
Q A fed'erat criminarinvestígatoror rawenforcement offÌcar;or
(8) A memberof the mílitaryioiõ"ro'rï"
stateswhireengagedin the perform.ù;f hË stateof catiforniaor of the uníted
or her duty.
' (g) ' severab¡l¡ty']f any provísionof thissectionorrhe
apptication.thereofto any personor
circumstance is heldinvalid,suchinvalíoity
' sÀàrr not affectany otherprovisionor
of thissectionwhich ¡J ãìíenLnu"t *¡t'*it¡,äî""àru provisionor
' applicatíon, "an
andto this endthe prouisãni oÏirtj. section r"uãnole.
. .
Thisordinanceshafltakeeffectand be in forceth¡rty(3O)
passaseandbefoierheexBirarion daysftom and aftei the dateof
of fifte.en
o.v" áäeiiií üGg; ¡tlnäif" pubtishedonce.with
. newspaper published in the Cciuntyof Alamäða.

{dopled bv the Bol^d^ojguq:.i.ql:-?llh-" goynty'of'Afameda,state or catifomia,on the2l"r

day of September;lggg, by'thefollowingcaliø uJte-:'

of the Boardof Supervisors
County of Afameda, State of Callfornja
of the Boardof Sup'ervisors,
Countyof Alameda
Approved oß ro Form