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IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

EASTERN DIVISION

Edward Patrick, M.D., Plaintiff,
J

Cleveland Scene Publishing, LLC, et al., Defendants.

1 Case NO. 05-~~-279# 1

Videotaped deposition of Esar Gordon Margolin, M.D., a witness herein, called by the Defendants for Cross Examination pursuant to the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, taken before Jennifer K. Starner, RPR and Notary Public in and for the State of Ohio, at the offices of Robbins, Kelly, Patterson
&

Tucker, Seven West Seventh

Street, Federated Building, Suite 1400, Cincinnati, Ohio, on Wednesday, April 18, 2007, commencing at 1:58 p.m.

- - -

Page 2

1 APPEARANCES :
2 On b e h a l f o f t h e P l a i n t i f f :
N. J e f f r e y Blankenship, Esquire Monohan & B l a n k e n s h i p 7711 Ewing B o u l e v a r d S u i t e 100 F l o r e n c e , Kentucky 41002 ( 8 5 9 ) 283-1140

7
8

9
10

Randy J . B l a n k e n s h i p , E s q u i r e Robbins, K e l l y , P a t t e r s o n & Tucker The F e d e r a t e d B u i l d i n g S u i t e 1400 Seven West S e v e n t h S t r e e t C i n c i n n a t i , O h i o 45202 ( 5 1 3 ) 721-3330

11 On b e h a l f o f t h e D e f e n d a n t s : Kenneth A. Z i r m , E s q u i r e Walter & H a v e r f i e l d , LLP The Tower a t E r i e v i e w 1301 E a s t N i n t h S t r e e t S u i t e 3500 C l e v e l a n d , O h i o 44114-1821 ( 2 1 6 ) 781-1212

17 A l s o Present: Edward P a t r i c k , M. D. Evan Newrnan, V i d e o T e c h n i c i a n

I

..
,

C ~ CI P .n!i-P\I -n7791-1 \A/

n n r ~ r n ~ 118 nt

Fil~d n7In717flflR

Page 3 S T I P U L A T I O N S It is stipulated by and among counsel for the

1

3 respective parties that the deposition of ESAR GORDON

4 MARGOLIN, M . D . ,

a witness herein, called as upon

5 Cross-Examination by the Defendants may be taken at this
6 time

place pursuant to the Federal Rules of Civil

7 procedure and agreement of counsel as to the time and place
8 of taking said deposition; that the deposition was recorded

9 in stenotypy by the court reporter, Jennifer K. Starner,
10 RPR, and transcribed out of the presence of the witness; and
11 that said deposition is to be submitted to the witness for
12 his examination and signature, and that signature may be

13 affixed out of the presence of the Notary Public.
14
15
16

- - -

d 07/O7/7OO8

Pane 4 nf 96

. 1 2 WITNESS:
3 ESAR GORDON MARGOLIN, M.D.
I N D E X

Page 4

CROSS

RECROSS

4

By Mr. Zirm By Mr. B l a n k e n s h i p

5

7

8 9 Defendants
10 11

E X H I B I T S

Marked

68 69

Page 5

VI DEOGRAPHER :

Going on the record.

The

time is 1:58 on April 18th) 2007. ESAR GORDON MARGOLIN, M. D.
4 of lawful age, as having been duly sworn, as hereinafter
5 certified, was examined and testified as follows:
6

CROSS-EXAMINATION

7 BY MR. ZIRM:

8 9 Ken Zirm.

Q

Dr. Margolin, we just met.

My name is

I am an attorney representing Cleveland Scene and

1 0 Tom Francis in a lawsuit filed against them by Dr. Edward

11 Patrick.

I would first ask whether you've had your

12 deposition taken before?

13 14

A

Yes, I have. You've been through this process then?

Q
A

15

I have.
So you're generally familiar with it.

17 I'm going to ask you a number of questions regarding your

18 contact with Mr. Francis and your experience 19 with Dr. Patrick.

--

experiences

If I ask you a question you don't

20 understand, please let me know and 1'11 try to rephrase it
2 1 so that we're on the same page. 22 23

A

Okay.

Thank you.

Q

I'll ask you to keep your voice up so

24 that the court reporter can hear what you're saying. And

1

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Page 6

1 I'll try not to speak over you if you try not to speak over
2 me so it's easier for her to know what we're both saying. 3 Okay?

4

Perfect . Okay. Could you just please state your

1

6 full name for the record.
My legal name is Esar Gordon Margolin.
8 First name I don't ordinarily use.

I
1

It's E-S-A-R.

Okay.
10 address?

And your current residence

7258 Laurel Oak Lane, Cincinnati 45237.

And, Dr. Margolin, where did you get

1

your undergraduate degree?
13

At the University of Nebraska. And then where did you attend medical
16 school?
17

At the University of Nebraska Medical

18 School, College of Medicine.

l

l9

Q

Was there any lapse of time between your

I

20 undergraduate and medical school career?

NO, no. And what year did you graduate from
23 medical school?

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,

Page 7 And did you then participate in a

1

2 residency program? 3 4
5

A

Yes, I did. Where was that?

Q
A

I had training and residency both at

6 Mount Sinai Hospital in New York City and at the Peter Bent

7 Brigham Hospital in Boston, Mass.
8

Q

How long was your program at Mount

9 Sinai?
10

A

It was a one-year program followed by

11 two years of Peter Bent and then back to Mount Sinai for a
12 second year.
13 14 that?

So a total of four years. And what kind of residency program was

15

A

Internal medicine for the most part, one

16 year of pathology mixed in.

17

Q

What did you do upon completion of your

18 residency? 19

A

I had two years in the service in the

20 Korean War.

I was stationed in Japan.

Then'I came back to

21 two more years as a fellow in nephrology, kidney diseases at
22 the Peter Bent Brigham Hospital completing that in 1955.
23 24 that?

And what did you do upon completion of

I

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1

2 role:

I worked at the University part time in the kidney

3 department that we established and then private practice the

4 other part time. 5 6

Q
A

And that's about 1955, 1956?
'55,

middle of '55.

How long did you hold those dual roles? Well, it's sort of -- sort of

--

in 1959

9 I was sort of drafted and became director of department of

And so I still held 10 internal medicine at Jewish ~ o s ~ i t a l . 11 some of those roles and part after that. But mainly my role

12 was as director of department of medicine.

I stayed in that

13 job for 27 years until 1986 I guess it was. I'm not quick with math either. held that position for years? Okay.

That is correct. And then what did you do? Then I've mostly done geriatrics at the 19 University and at the VA and continue to practice in those
20 venues to date mostly in education, teaching, some patient

21 care.
Okay. Never. Okay. No plans to retire?

1

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Page 9 I'm against retirement in case you want

I

Q

Just on -- just on principal.

I'm going

I

4 to focus most of my questions on your time as director of

5 internal medicine at Jewish Hospital.

And in particular to

6 the extent we can, we'll focus on the years in the mid '70s,
7 particularly when Dr. Patrick was there at the same time.

8 9

A

Oh, okay.

Q

General question.

As director of

10 internal medicine, what was your involvement and 11 responsibility for the internal medicine residency program 12 there? 13

A

Well, as director of medicine I had the

14 responsibility for the whole department of medicine and all

1

15 of its subparts, cardiology, pulmonary and so forth.

And

1 16 then in addition, I was chairman of the committee.
17 what we called it.

I forget

House Staff and Education Committee.

I I1

18 And so'I was responsible for appointing and kind of 19 overseeing the house staff in all the areas except perhaps

20 in surgery.

And what areas were there of house

Well, mainly it was internal medicine.
24 We had a number of rotating residencies in different areas

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Page 10

1 from time to time.

I think there was some orthopedic

I1
1

2 residents and some obstetric residents coming through from

3 the University for the most part.

Really had two major

4 residency programs, medicine and surgery, internal medicine
5 and surgery.

And was that true at the time you 7 arrived at Jewish Hospital? Yes. Both programs were in place? Yes, they were. And both were accredited at the time? Yes. Tell me about that process. Did you

I I1

14 have to go through a periodic review to keep your 15 accreditation?

Oh, yes.

A

regular review every

-- I

17 don't remember how many years apart they were, but we had
18 regular accreditation surveys for each of the programs and 19 they were always

-- they were always fully accredited as far
Both programs, surgery and -Yes.

20 as I can recall.

Okay. Yes.

And were they separately accredited?

I think so. That's a good question.

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1

1 I -- yeah, I'm pretty sure they were.
2

Q

Okay.

So there would have been a

3 separate review process for the surgery program?
4

A

Yes.
Separate for the internal medicine

5
6 program?

Q

Yes.
8 accreditation in surgery.

I didn't have much to do with the
I was'much more responsible for

9 the other.
10

Q

How long was the typical medicine

11 residency program at Jewish Hospital?

A

Well, initially we had an internship

13 and, as I recall, three years of medical residency. I

-- I

14 can't remember when it changed to about three years total 15 which sort of dropped the word internship and sort of made

16 everybody a three-year kind of progression.
17
18

Q
A

Okay. That's what it is to date.

I don't

19 recall when that happened exactly.

There have been changes

20 over the years.
21

Q

Okay.

And was that change a national

22 standard change?
Yes. Yes.

That wasn't something Jewish Hospital

1 decided to do?

Page 12

2
3

A

NO, no, no, no.

National. Thank you.

Q

How about the surgery program, do you

4 recall how long that residency program typically was?

5

A

It seemed to me it was longer.

It may

6 have been four years.

7

Q
A

Okay. But I Okay.

8
9

-- I'm not a hundred percent sure.
Who was director of surgery -- or

Q

10 was there a director of surgery when you first came to

11 Jewish?
12

A

There always was a director of surgery.

13 I don't think we had a full-time director of surgery 14 initially.

And I can't remember

--

I remember Dr. Ed
There may

15 Wallaber (phonetic) was director at one point.

16 have been several changes during that period of time until 17 Dr. Heimlich, Henry Heimlich came on the scene.

I think he

18 was the first full-time director hired by the hospital to
19 the best of my recollection. 20

Q

Were you involved in the process of

21 recruiting Dr. Heimlich for that position? 22 23

No, I don't believe that I was.

Q

Do you recall whether you interviewed

24 him before he took the position?

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Page 13
I had a passing contact with him when I

1

I I

2 was at Mount Sinai as a resident, so I knew him a little
3 bit.

So we had had some kind of relationship, we knew

I1
I

4 people in common.

I don't believe I had anything to do with

5 his selection.
Okay. Did you have

--

did that past

7 relationship provide an impetus for him coming to 8 Cincinnati, Ohio?
9

I

I don't think so. We weren't that

10 close.

Okay.

You didn't contact him and say,

12 Dr. Heimlich, there's an opportunity here in Cincinnati? 13

A

Not at all. That kind of thing? Not at all. Okay.

I had nothing to do with that.
18
19 the program?

Okay.

How are the residents chosen for

20 21

A

You're really picking my brains.

Q
A

If you recall.
Well, I know how I did it in medicine. I'm a blank slate. I'm trying to learn

22

23
24 all I can.

Page 1 4
This i s
tiom.
chool,
fin^,

We wou.1-d g.et

L e t I s s t a r t ouk

wxeh the;-,grBduates 6E the

There waa a period of each year whan t h e

s t u d ~ n t s~ppiy.
Uh-huh

.

They applied to all t h e hbspit$$~and w e

em alscarding to t h e ones we tKink we want and
t they' ll come to us.

Nowadays it goes through

d I can't remember when we started the of t h e match program, but mostly thy were

medical school.

But at t h e same time we

l d t s of IBtters from foreign graduates,

udents, people from I n d i a , Philippians and
applying f o r gos,ftiuLns. ~ n d if wa did n o t f i L 1
raduates, domestic graduates, we would look

f t h e people who otherwise were applying and

select those that we thought would he guitable fop

And that's what I ' r h familiar with is

--

d sf the matching progxam.

The matching program.

Q

Rap it a matching

--

was it

-- wg-8

there

kiatchiw program even before it was computerized?
A

Wasn't what we c a l l a matahi.fig p p r q ~ a ,

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Page 15
1 it was sort of a scramble program.

Everybody would apply

2 and you hoped you heard from the hospital that prefer

--

3 that you prefer that told you.

Okay . It was really a -- it was really a
6 difficult era of trying to pick people and know that you re

7 going to get them.
Would you interview candidates? Oh, yes, we interviewed them all. Some

10 of the foreign graduates, I'm not sure we interviewed all of
11 them unless they were in this country, but mostly they were

12 interviewed and looked at by a committee.

And were there a specific number of
14 slots available -15

A

Oh, yes.

16
17

Q
A

-- for each class?
Oh, yes. That was determined by the Not the hospital governing body, the We had only so many slots. And don't ask

18 governing bodies.

19 national bodies.

20 me how many.
21
22

I don't remember.
For each how many slots -Yeah. Did it change over the years? Yeah, there were some slight changes.

Q
A

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Page 16
1 There were modifications.

You'd have to apply for changes.

2 Some of the residents would come for only one year and stay
3 one year and that was okay.

And then some would stay on for

4 the full three years and we selected both kinds because we
5 needed fewer in the second and third year and many people
6 need a one-year training before they go off into some

7 subspecialty like physical medicine, rehab or other

-- other
--

8 specialties so that they need a year of medicine before 9 of internship before they went on.

Just part of the -- part

10 of the system.
11

Q

And would you know that in advance when

12 you selected a particular candidate?

13

Oh, yes.

Oh, yes.

Whether they're

14 staying a year or more, yes. 15

Q

So with every class that came in you

16 knew this person is going to be here a year, this person at
17 least --

18
19

A

Yeah.

Q
A

-- intends to be here longer?
Yeah, we didn't -- we couldn't lock them

20

21 up, but intends to is the right word. 22

Q

Okay.

Another kind of general question. How

23 What was the role of the chief resident in medicine?
24 did it differ from just a typical resident?

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Page 17
1

A

I'm not sure in medicine that I really

2 ran the strong chief residency.

Okay.
4

A

When we did -- and some of the times I

5 would enlist these people to help me with schedules and so
6 forth, but I didn't have a strong chief residency program in
7 medicine.

I think they did in surgery.

8

Q

Okay. But I don't believe we did in medicine.

II

10 I guess I was on the scene so much I was sort of chief
11 resident all the time.

Q

Well, that was my next question.

What

13 was you; relationship with the residents? 14 working relationship? 15

Was it a close

A

Oh, very close.

I was at all of the

I

16 conferences, I was counseling them, making rounds, teaching,
17 a lot of teaching, hearing their complaints, really very

18 close.

I was there full time. And that would be true of the first-year

20 residents as well as the second and third-year residents?

Absolutely. Okay. Absolutely. As needed without question. Do you

Again, I'm testing your memory.

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Page 18
1 recall during the years was there someone that held the
2 position of, say, graduate medical education administrator

3 at the hospital that was kind of a liaison, handled
4 paperwork for the residents, that kind of thing?

5

A

I had a secretary, of course, who

6 assisted me, but a lot of stuff

-- I think much of it had to

7 be approved by administration. And so they were always
8 behind us with

-- with paperwork and so forth, but

9 they weren't -- I don't think they were responsible for -10 for running the program or selecting the residents.
11 12

Q

Okay . Not that I recall.

13

Q

Okay.

But would they have had maybe

14 contact with the residents?

15
16

A

Oh, on paper essentially. Okay. Not otherwise. And there was -Well, there was one director we had when

Q
A

20 I first came who always made it a point to always meet all 21 the residents. Made little notes on their charts that he

22 had seen them.

Didn't do anything but just sort of glad

23 handled them, but he wasn't involved with their education 24 program at all.

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1 2

Q
A

Okay.

I don't think that was the case after

3 the first few years I was there. 4

Q

Now, Dr. Heimlich arrived, I believe, in

5 the late '60s?
6

A

I don't remember the exact date.

He

7 there was during the

--

into the '70s.

I know that.

8

Q

Did your

--

did you have more

9 responsibility for the surgical residents prior to his
10 arrival?
11 12 13 your A

I don't believe so. Didn't really change then after

Q

--

--

your responsibility and activities with regard to

14 the surgical residents didn't really change after he 15 arrived?

No, I would say Okay.

--

I would say no.

You mean less responsibility or more? Yes. Either way.

Well, as chairman of the committee, we
21 always sort of oversaw things. 22 23

Q
A

Okay. But I didn't have any direct

24 responsibility for the residents either before or after.

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Do you recall who else sat on that
2 committee, the titles of the people?

Well, head of surgery, whoever it was. 4 Haven't the slightest recollection of that. We're

5 different

--

key people in the hospital obviously.

There was certainly an administrator on
8 that committee too, I'm positive, because they always had

9 administrative on that committee.

But I do not recall who was actually on

Did you at any time participate in the
14 selection of the surgical residents?

I really did not.
Okay. Let me ask you, if you can, what

17 your first memory of Ed Patrick is?

Okay. 19 Dr. Heimlich.

I shared an office space with

Our offices were right across a small

20 vestibule, corridor, waiting area, whatever you call it.
21 And there was a period of time where he was having meetings 22 with several people in the community and I learned

23 subsequently that this was what they called the HARP group,
24 Heimlich and P was Patrick.

I remember that.

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Page 21
1 2

Right. And Dr. Rivershell. Neil Armstrong? Armstrong. That's right. And they were

3

1

5 having sort of like

-- I always thought sort of closed door

6 meetings.

I didn't know what they were doing, but I knew
And I knew that

7 they were meeting there.

-- ultimately knew

1

8 that Dr. Patrick met him at that time, that he was one of

9 the participants.

And I knew him as a computer expert from

10 Purdue, but I didn't

-- I didn't have any direct -- initial
That was all through the --

11 direct relationship with him.

12 whatever that setup was with Heimlich, that's how I know he 13 appeared at the hospital. 14 15

Q
A

Okay. To the best of my recollection. Okay. Do you recall -- did there come a

17 time when you had more of a relationship with Dr. Patrick? 18

A

Yes.

Yes.

Uh-huh.

And -- and how did that come about?
Well, Dr. Patrick was a computer expert 21 of which there weren't many around at the time. And we had

22 a computerized cardiac monitoring unit and he got interested

1 23 in using that progkarn in his research and hoping to develop

I

24 some techniques that computer

--

computer recognition,

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1 pattern recognition of disease to see if he could further 2 further his computer interest.

--

Okay.

And did you become involved in

4 that or did you have to provide approval for that or how did

5 you get

-Yeah, I'm sure that

--

that I did, that

7 we -- that we worked that out, arranged it and talked about
8 it.

And Dr. Patrick gave us some lectures on what that --

9 what that meant or how we would do it with a lot of 10 mathematics, which I still to this day don't understand, but 11 nonetheless were the -- appropriate for a man of 12 Dr. Patrick's level and training.

When you say he gave us some lectures on
14 it, who is the us?

Well, the other one I think of is Dr. 16 Sanghvi who at that time was chief of cardiology serving
17 under me and was running that coronary -- cardiac monitoring 18 unit.

Vijay Sanghvi.

I don't remember whether he gave
If he did, I don't recall, but I

19 lectures other than that.

20 do remember sitting with the three of us talking and looking 21 at data.

I'm going to show you a number of
23 documents and they may or may not refresh your recollection 24 and we'll just have to see.

First one I want you to look at

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Page 23
1 is actually in this book.

These are exhibits we've already

2 used in this case.
3
4

A

Okay.

Q

If you could turn to Tab 55.

If you can

5 just take a moment to review the article about Dr. Patrick.
6

A

Yes.

I was given this by one of the

7 attorneys I saw just this weekend.

I was looking at it this

8 weekend.

9
10 11

Okay. Okay. This is a

--

do you recall this

12 newsletter?
13

A

No. Okay. This is a

14

Q

--

appears to be some

15.kind of Jewish Hospital publication?
16

A

That's correct. From June of 1975?

18

A

Correct. And I guess maybe more generally, do you

19

Q

20 recall that Jewish Hospital did put out a periodic
21 newsletter?
22

A

Yes. Okay.

Yes, we did.

Yes, there was.

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Page 24 Okay. And the article basically

2 announces that Dr. Patrick will be joining Jewish Hospital

1

3 on a part-time basis to develop a research program in the 4 area of biomedical engineering.

1

Is this consistent with

5 your memory of what Dr. Patrick was doing

--

Yes.

-- when he first came to Jewish?
Yes, yes. And Robert A.. Carney, executive

That s correct. He was the head of the hospital?

1

l3

A

He was the -- he was the chief operating

I.

14 officer or whatever you call it.

He was the boss? Well, he was the -- he was our boss. Okay. Under the board of trustees obviously. Okay. Was it your understanding when

20 Dr. Patrick first arrived to Jewish Hospital that he had
21 been brought there by Dr. Heimlich?

Oh, that was the only way I knew him was

(

2 3 his relationship with Dr. Heimlich.

Okay.

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Page 25 This was a secondary development, as I
2 recall.

I didn't

--

I don't think he came, that I remember,

3 with anything like this in mind.

Okay.

In your memory then as to the

5 initial reason he came was what?
6

A

Was for this so called HARP group that's

7 listed in here. Okay.
9 HARP and then this became
10 learn of HARP? 11

Okay.

So you knew about him in

--

or you knew

--

you came to

A

Yeah, I came to learn of him and I

12 didn't learn of the other people in HARP because we didn't

13 have any overlap.

But Dr. Patrick

--

I don't know how we

14 got together, whether Dr. Heimlich asked me to see him or we 15 just got together because of his interest in medicine or
16 whatever, but we got to know each other during that period 17 of time.

18

Q

Okay.

And so then it's your memory is

19 consistent that his first position with Jewish Hospital was 20 this position discussed in this newsletter?

21
22

A

Yes. Okay. If you could turn to the next

Q

23 exhibit, 56. 24

Take a moment to review that, if you would. Okay.

A
---.....r-W...IW..-

".,.

-

.,.,-..

, . ' ' . * h W -

,'

-----+..-

a " -

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This appears to be a copy of a Jewish

2 Hospital memo dated July 7th, 1975 from an N.S. Finer to an
3 H.R. Watts, ccling Dr. Patrick and Dr. Heimlich?

Correct. So there's no indication at least on the
6 face of the memo that you were sent this memo at the time it

7 was written?

No.

I totally have no recollection that

9 Dr. Patrick even had an office.
10 know where it was.

And if he had one, I don't

Okay.

I honestly don't know where he hung out
13 in the hospital.

This is a surprise to me.
16 recall this at all.

I -- I do not

Okay. Who is N.S. Finer? Norman Finer was the administrator to
19 whom I reported at the time.

He was -- or he was under

20 Mr. Carney as one of the administrators and he had my -21 and a lot of other people reported to him, but my role was 22 through him.

Mr. Watts was the administrator responsible

23 for construction and design and building and accommodations
24 of that sort.

And so they were both about the same level,

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1 but I reported directly to Finer and so did

--

I think

2 Dr. Heimlich probably did too.
I was going to ask that.

Okay.

I don't -- I don't even know the word
5 surgical teaching unit.
6 don't

I'm sorry.

I see it in here and I

-- there's no recall for me.
You don't think, oh, I remember exactly

8 where that was?

I absolutely have no recollection of

Okay. 12 Exhibit 35?

If you could turn back to

All right. Take a moment to review that, if you

I've seen it, Okay. This appears to be Dr. Patrick's

18 application for appointment to house staff at Jewish

19 Hospital?

Correct. And the date on the second page is 22 August 22, 1975? Correct. The

-- on the first line on the first

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.

.
Page 28

1 page at the top it asks in the first blank line, "Specify 2 type and specialty, flexible, categorical," and then in

3 parenthesis, "medicine or surgery."
4 flexible.

Someone has written

So was there a flexible

-- that was an option for

5 a resident applicant to apply for?
Yes, absolutely. We had different
7 designs of the program.

And the flexibles went through

8 several different specialties during the course of the year.

9 And it was a variable rotation, whereas the categoricals in

10 medicine and surgery were primarily assigned to medicine or
11 to surgery for the year.

That was all approved by the

12 approving bodies.
13
14

Q
A

And thatts what I was going to ask. Those were acceptable. The flexible residency program was also

15

Q

16 an accredited program?

17
18

A

Absolutely. Okay. Were you involved in the review

Q

19 process -20

A

Yeah.

21

Q
A

-- and accreditation process for that?
Yeah, for the flexible I was because

22

23 anything that merged with medicine I had responsibility. As
24 a matter of fact, you see I signed the back that I approved

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Page 29
1 that

-- that this applicant for this flexible program. And
And can you read your handwriting? That's my initial. Okay. And can you read what -- is that

2 that's my --

6 your handwriting above it as well?

7
8
9

A

It is. Can you read that for us? Yes. Okay for flexible program, that is

Q
A

10 four months of medicine, fourth months of surgery, 11 anesthesia, emergency room, that's ER, x-ray, starting

12 August 1975, signed by me.
13

Q

Okay.

So you had to approve

--

would

14 you have had to approve any flexible resident?

15

A

Everyone had my

---

everyone had my

--

16 note like this on it if I approved it.
17
18

Q
A

And were there

Not the surgical ones, not the

19 categorical surgical. 20

Q

I understand.

So any flexible and

21 medical --

Absolutely.

--

was

--

you had to approve?

Absolutely.

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And the flexible program, was there also
2 a specific number of slots available? I don't recall, but I think we had a

4 total number of first-year people and we could modify within

5 that, but I do not recall if there was a specific number for

Okay.

Do you recall the typical date

8 that a resident class started?

Yes, usually July 1st.

But

--

but we

10 had a lot of residents that were off schedule because we

11 would fill in with graduates from other schools, foreign
12 schools and so forth.

Or people would get

--

have babies

13 and come later or be sick and have to drop out and change

14 dates.

So we didn't adhere completely. We couldn't adhere

15 fully to the July 1 to July 1 rotation.

This would be

--

not be an unusual

So there -- but I assume there had to be
20 a slot still available?

Oh, absolutely.

Absolutely. Okay. Do you know whether an effort was

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Page 31
1 made to fill all your slots with the July 1 folks?

Always was. Okay. Yeah.
5

And then if you happened to have slots

6 still available you might take people starting later?

7
8
9 10 comment.

A

Absolutely. Okay. Generally speaking

Q
A

--

may I make a

Sure. Generally speaking, there was a full
13 application that went with this that was a diploma and other

14 credentials, background and so forth on each individual.
15 16

Q
A

Okay.

I don't see it here and I don't recall

17 having seen it at all, but it should have been somewhere 18 attached or in the same file. 19 or not.

I don't know if you have that

So assume that all of this was documented.

20

Q

Okay.

And you

--

so you would expect

21 this application to be accompanied by more information about 22 the candidate? 23

A

I would say ordinarily that would be

24 correct.

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Page 32 Okay. In this case I just don't know. Sure. And I wouldn't expect you to
4 remember a specific case --

I do not remember.

-- from the mid 1970s.

But for

(

7 instance, a medical school transcript, would that be 8 something?
9

A

Yes.

Usually a dean's letter from

10 medical school or a copy -- I know the foreign graduates you
11 get copies of their diplomas and university letters and

I

12 their grades.

And we have to have documentation that they

I

13 were bona fide people. 14

Q

Do you have any recollection of having

15 discussions with Dr. Heimlich about whether some of those
16 requirements should be waived for Dr. Patrick?

17

I don't remember discussions with Dr. --

18 yeah, I remember -- Dr. -- you're really picking my brains
19 and that's okay.
20
2 1 answer. 22

That's what I'm here -Well, I appreciate your efforts to

Q

That's what I'm here for.

I know that

2 3 Dr. Heimlich approached me about this -- about this program

24 for Dr. Patrick.

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Page 33 Okay.
2 A

He wanted Dr. Patrick, Dr. Patrick was

3 asking for training in medicine and Dr. Heimlich was

-- was

4 his advocate.

5
6

Q

Okay. He came to me with that question. And

7 so from that standpoint, I did have discussion with
8 Dr. Heimlich.

As a matter of fact, if we -- since we

9 designed this emphasis on surgery in here, this had to be
10 with Dr. Heimlich's discussion of approval. 11 had to be involved.

I'm positive he

12
13 14

Q
A

So this -I'm still the responsible person. Sure. So this application didn't arrive

Q

1 15 blindly on your desk, you knew about it in advance from
Oh, oh, I'm sure of that. Okay. I'm sure of that.
20

Q

In the flexible program described in

21 your handwriting, is

-- is that what every flexible
They could be designed to fit the

22 residency was?
23
A

No.

24 needs of the individual and it fit the

-- it fit the overall

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Page 34

I1

1 description of the flexible program, but each one might have
2 been a little bit different.

1

Q

Would there have been something in

4 writing at the time that indicated the general description

5 of the flexible program?

There probably was in the

--

in the

--

7 somewhere in the documents, but I don't know where you're
8 going to dig those up.

If you can dig them up, I'll look at

9 them.

Okay. Sorry. That's all right. Just don't have it all.

I guess what I'm getting at were there 1 15 some core Qrequirements for every flexible program?
Oh, yeah. They had to have so much

--

I
I I

17 some medicine and I think maybe at least two months of

18 surgery, as I recall. Okay. And I don't remember about the rest. And, again, that would have been a

22 national accrediting board requirement?
Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
If you could go ahead one exhibit to 36.

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Page 35
1

Okay.

I have seen this one too.

2

Q

Okay.

This is the -- at least the first

3 page is a letter to Dr. Patrick from Robert Carney
4 congratulating him and offering him a house staff position?

5

A

That's right. Okay.

7

A

It was standard. Okay. Standard letter. And standard to say as recommended by

8

Q
A

9
10

Q

11 Dr. E. Gordan Margolin, Chairman of the Committee on House
12 Staff and Education?

13
14

A

Yes. "After consultation with the executive What was -- who was on the

Q

15 board of the medical staff."
16 executive board?

At that time I don't remember, but there
18 were always practicing physicians or heads of department. 19 Usually, oh, ten or 12 physicians met regularly.

20
21

Q
A

Okay. Helped do the medical planning for the

22 hospital.

And I was -- I was on that as an ex-officio and

23 Dr. Heimlich was on the executive board ex-officio.
24

52

Okay.

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And I think all our applicants were at

2 least way past the -I understand.

-- sheets of paper.

They really had the

5 overriding medical decision making poss- -- potentials.
The procedure at least allowed for them 7 or required their approval?

The staff's approval? Yes, I think that was standard.

I don't think they ever turned anybody

Okay.

Are the -- if you could turn to Does this appear to be a

15 the second page of this exhibit.

16 standard residency agreement form that was in place at the

That's exactly right.

I don't know why they crossed out the
21 dollar amount, but -- because I don't remember that.

Yeah.
23 So apparently --

It says, "Stipend per agreement."

Oh, per agreement, yeah.

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-- there was a separate document that
2 would have indicated a stipend in this case. 3 it filled in in this agreement itself?

Generally was

And the hours of duty, is that standard? Yes. 7 that everybody signed. Everything in here was the same

This was our standard.

It wasn't --

10 I look at it, it wasn't very fancy or pretty, but it was
11 nonetheless, that's what we used.

--

We used -- we used

12 typewriters in those days.

Remember the typewriters?

With carbon copies. That's right. No. 10, Type of residency 16 the first page. Oh, I'm sorry. Item 10 there, you see Flexible l? Yes. Did that indicate to you that was going
21 to be a one-year program?

-- still on

Do you have a recollection that that's
24 what Dr. Patrick intended was just one year?

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Oh, yes, just one year, absolutely.

And did you have an understanding of why
4 that was?

Well, my understanding was that he -- my
6 recollection is that Dr. Patrick had been out of medical

7 school, hadn't had any further training, wanted to fulfill

8 that, I guess, for state licensure or whatever requirements.
9 But my recollection was his particular interest was to do

10 computing and to stay in the engineering field or somehow to
11 meld it, but he wanted to be recognized as a

--

as a full

12 fledged physician who needed this extra training.

Do you have any recollection that at the
14 time you approved Dr. Patrick's flexible residency program 15 that he was interested particularly in emergency medicine.

No, except that I -- we put emergency in
17 this thing.

Uh-huh.

I don't recall any
20 recall that. Okay.

--

any

-- I don't

If you could turn to the next

22 page, it says "Supplement to Residency Agreement."

You've had a chance to review this?

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Yes, I have. And it lists the rotation -- the
3 department rotations he was going to undertake.

So do you

4 know whether those rotations were to be taken in the order

5 listed here?

Oh, no, not necessarily. Okay. No.
9 I --

This was an agreed upon program.

I think he just fit into the rotation the way the
I don't recall the order.

10 program would best suit it.

But I think I -- if I can comment.

This is a very unusual supplement.
15 don't remember ever writing one like this for anybody.

I

Okay.
17 in this instance?

And do you know why it was done

Well, in reading -- may I just offer my
19 thoughts

--- for what they're worth. In reading There was

22 this, it looked to me like I had some doubt.
23 another document that went with it.

There was two versions and then there

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Page 40
1 appears to be a supplement, a rough draft?

This rough draft. Uh-huh. This rough draft -- these little

5 notations are my understand handwriting.
6

Q

Okay. And apparently I

7

--

I'm guessing that I

8 probably wrote this rought draft trying to elaborate what we
9 were offering to Dr. Patrick and ended up with some of the
10 changes that went into my handwriting in here. 11 12

Q
A

Okay. So I recognize that as my

--

my

13 documentation.

And then that turned into the supplement to

14 the residency agreement. 15 16

Q
A

Okay. It's obvious -- and I think you can see

17 it in the writing -- that I had some doubts about his being
18 able to fulfill the requirements fully at the time because

19 he had other responsibilities in the hospital that were
20 going to take a significant amount of time.

21
22

Q
A

Uh-huh . And to be a resident, my feeling was it

23 should be a full-time position. And you -- I say
24 we've never

-- I've never written this that

I can recall on

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Page 41
1 anybody else and it is -- it is well delineated in here that

I I I I

2 there was some concern in my mind and it reads that way.
3 it says, "It is the desire of all that this program be a

As

4 proper one so that at no time in the future could questions
5 be raised about the validity of this accredited year."

You can see I had some doubt -- some
8 issues because Dr. Patrick was otherwise given other jobs at 9 the same time and none of my other house staff were given

I understand. I want to make that clear because

I

13 that's -- that's strictly unusual.

1 I

Q

And

--

and the last paragraph mentions

15 two of these commitments that he had?

Right.

An eight-hour-per-week job as physician
18 in charge of clinical computing and eight hours was the HARP
19 program?

That ' s right. And was that the basis of your concern? Absolutely. And that was -- it said he
23 would fulfill those outside the required hospital duties in

24 his internship.

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So that would

--

I was trying to -- 1

3 was trying to clarify that lest those two things went to

So in your view Dr. Patrick was expected
6 during that year to do everything that his peers

--

his

7 first-year residents would do? Oh, absolutely. It says that here.

In order to be properly accredited.
Did you have an understanding of whether

12 he had continuing duties at Purdue during this year? I don't remember.
Okay.
15 concern?

Would that have caused you

Oh, absolutely. Okay. Do you remember having

18 discussions with Dr. Heimlich about these concerns?

I don't recall having discussions, but
20 obviously this was written so that Dr. Heimlich also was

21 aware of it.

And signed by him allegedly.
24 signature on this piece of paper.

There's no

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Right.
2 to obtained a signed copy.

Right.

And we've not been able

It looks like it was set up to be

It would be asking too much, wouldn't
6 it, if I asked you if you recall signing this?

I do not recall signing.
8 was

In fact, I

--

I did not exactly recall this until reading it that I

9 remembered the concern that this was expressing,
10 difficulties we had in putting it together.

Do you see the paragraph after the
12 rotations are set out, in the last sentence of that
13 paragraph Dr. Patrick requests that his assignment be
14 primarily in surgery and surgical subspecialties and it

15 is

--

and, therefore, it is understood that in the above
'

16 rotations only the four months of medicine will be the
17 direct responsibility of Dr. --

I see that.
Was that something you wanted to have in
20 this supplement?

Oh, absolutely. And why is that? Well, because -- because Dr. Patrick
24 came to us under the auspices of Dr. Heimlich, he wanted

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1 surgical training and I didn't want to take full
2 responsibility for a full year and, hence, formulated that

3 Dr. Heimlich would be the responsible person for the rest of
4 the training.

Given that you had these concerns, did

7 residency to satisfy yourself that he wa,smeeting the

8 requirements?

We knew that he was fulfilling his 10 assignments.

I will say in front of Dr. Patrick that I'm

11 sure that all of his peers did not feel that he was carrying 12 his full load.

Okay. And I do remember that.
15 remember.

I don't

I think we discussed it, but a little bit of Not that he didn't do

16 evanescence in his appearance.

-- not

17 that -- well, we never found that the job wasn't fulfilled,
18 but we weren't so sure it was done in the full manner that 19 we

--

that a full-time intern should have done it.

In my best recollection. I understand. Is there any specific

23 recollection of any peers that you had these discussions

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Page 45 No, I don't.
2 this as a general concept. I don't.

I just remember

Do you ever recall approaching
4 Dr. Heimlich about these concerns during the course of that
5 year?

6

A

I do not recall.
I'm trying to figure out the best way to

7

Q

8 ask you this, but was having flexible residents or interns

9 common or uncommon in a given year?

Oh, it was variable.
Okay.

It was

--

-13

not uncommon. Let's put it that way. And would you say that was true

Q

Okay.

14 your entire tenure at Jewish Hospital?

Yeah.

I'm not sure we continued the

16 flexibles all the way up to the end. 17
18

I just don't remember.

Q
A

Okay. It was true through much of the time.

19 Can I make another comment which --

Q
21

Sure?

A

--

may not be to your

--

what you want

22 to hear, I can't help it.
23 provided internship

At the end of the time we

--

we

-- a certificate of having completed the

24 program.

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Page 4 6
1

Q
A

Yes.
I have n o t s e e n t h a t h e r e , b u t I d o

2

3 remember t h a t I was n o t t h e o n e t h a t s i g n e d i t .
4 D r . Heimlich w a s asked t o s i g n t h a t a t t h e time.

Q

Would you h a v e h a d m i s g i v i n g s a b o u t

6 s i g n i n g i t g i v e n what you h e a r d a b o u t D r . P a t r i c k ?
7
A

I had m i s g i v i n g s a n d r e q u i r e d -- a s k e d

8 him t o s i g n i t , t h a t I was n o t g o i n g t o s i g n i t f o r t h e 9 hospital.
10 event.
11

T h a t was m y b i g g e s t r e c o l l e c t i o n o f t h i s whole

Okay.
A

12

O r d i n a r i l y I would have

--

I would have

13 been t h e o n e t o s i g n i t .
14

I d o n ' t know i f t h a t ' s i n y o u r --

Q
A

Yes, i t i s . Okay.

And I ' l l show i t t o you --

15
16

-A

i n a few m i n u t e s .

17

Because h e w a s r e a l l y D r . H e i m l i c h ' s

18 p r o t e g e e p r o t e g e a n d I t h i n k t h a t ' s where i t b e l o n g e d . 19
20

Q
A

I understand.

But t h a t made i t o f f i c i a l a s f a r a s t h e

2 1 h o s p i t a l was c o n c e r n e d .

Correct.
I t was a n o f f i c i a l y e a r of t r a i n i n g .

Okay.

And a s f a r a s y o u ' r e c o n c e r n e d ,

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Page 47
1 Dr. Heimlich was vouching for that

--

Well, he signed --

-- as opposed to you?
He signed for it. Yes. Yeah.

I I
I I 1 I I

Q

Would multiple year residents, residents

8 that were going to be with the program for more than a year

9 sign a new resident agreement every year?

Each year, right.

Q

Okay.

Would multi-year residents get a

1 2 certificate at the end of their first year?

A

No.

They get one at the conclusion of

14 the training program.

Did you have much direct contact with
16 Dr. Patrick during his rotation through internal medicine?

I cannot recall.

I had a lot of contact
So I assume

I
1

18 with the residents on the service at the time.

19 I had the same or similar with him.

I would not have

2 0 treated him any differently during the time.

1

Nothing extraordinary that you
22 recollect?

I do not recall.
24

Q

Either positive or negative?

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Page 48 Neither way. Would you expect to find written
3 evaluations of him in his file?

Yes. Okay. And of every resident?

Every resident. Okay. We required it. Okay.

I -- I have no -- I have not seen them
11 or I don't know what they say. 12 13

Q
A

Sure. Are they in the book? No. No. And in response to our

14

Q

I I

15 subpoena to Jewish Hospital, none have been turned over.

I have no knowledge of that.
So we have not seen it.

I will tell you that the rules at the
19 time were much less intense than they are now. Nowadays,

20 when you have a resident, you do so much paperwork regarding
21 each resident.

Gradually, gradually they've enhanced it so

22 that what we did in retrospect was fairly slim, but we did
23 have records that showed the progress and involvement and so 24 forth all the way through.

We have to keep those records.

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I

1

Page 49

Q

And would there be

--

would you expect

2 there to be even in the mid ' 7 0 ~ a record of his

3 assignments, rotational assignments in his file, in a
4 resident's file?

5

In a file?

Probably there should have

6 been a -- an assignment page.
7 .

Q
A

Okay. Should have been.
I understand.

8

I have no
11

--

30 years is a long time.

Q

No, I understand.

We'll hand you

12 documents here. 13 14

A

Okay. And I'll show you what's been marked as

Q

15 Exhibit 65.

Yeah.
17

Q

And ask you whether that's the

18 certificate you just testified about?

19

That is exactly the one. And that has Dr. Heimlich's signature? That is right.

20
21 22

Q

And -- and that is -- you asked Dr.

23 Heimlich to sign that? 24

A

That is correct, I did.

Ordinarily I

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1 would have been the one to sign it.

Okay.

And ordinarily for any flexible

3 resident would that have been true?

And is a resident 1 the correct term,
6 the term that the hospital used?

I don't remember -- I don't remember
8 using that term, but obviously it appears on there so we
9 must have used it that way.

And does that look like the typical
11 certificate that Jewish Hospital issued?

Resident 1.
13 certificate.

Yeah, this is a typical

Uh-huh.

I'm sorry.

Were you about to

15 say something about resident l?

No.

I see it says resident 1.

I don't

17 recall using that term, but that's obviously what we 18 accepted at the time.

And how did these certificates gets

They would be created through our

22 secretarial and we would all sign them and hand them out at
23 the appropriate times to the finishing residents, sometimes

24 at a party, sometimes if they're finished in between in the

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Page 51
1 middle of the year would be just given to them.

2
3

Q
A

Okay. But all residents should have copies of

4 their experience and documentation which this is.

5 6

Q
A

Okay. But ordinarily this would have been This was an exception.

7 signed by me.
8

Q

I see.

Were there any other

9 documentation to demonstrate that a resident had completed a

10 program at Jewish Hospital?

11

A

At some point in the course of all this

12 we had to summarize the resident's activities on 13 file.

-- in his

14
15

Q
A

Okay. And I

--

I would write those on all my

16 residents at the end of the year because obviously they were

17 available for future references and stuff.
18

Q
A

Uh-huh . And I do not recall whether in '76, or

19

20 whatever that date was, if we were required to do it, but my 21 guess is that we did. 22

Q
A

Okay. But it would be in his file.

Q

And when you say that that was a

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Page 52

1 requirement, again, a national accredited
Yeah. Yeah, they

--they

--

they wanted

I
(

3 wanted documentation.

Makes sense to them.

Do you have any personal recollection of
5 observing Dr. Patrick treating patients?

No, 7 : do not. Do you have any personal recollection of
8 ever observing Dr. Patrick in the emergency room?

9

A

No. Would you observe residents as they

11 rotated through the emergency room, for instance?

12 13 have.

Emergency room I wouldn't ordinarily not

Okay.

What

--

what departments would

Just on

--

-- contacted?

--

medicine essentially.

Okay. And making rounds and teaching -And you --

-- and reading their

--

reading their

And you indicated there's subspecialties

Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW

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Page 53 of 96

Page 53
1 within medicine or subdepartments. 2

What were those?

A

At the time there was cardiac,

3 pulmonary, there was gastro -- gastroenterology I'm sure.

4 We had a

--

for a while we had immunology,
I don' t remember what we had at

(
1

5 rheumatology/immunology.

6 that time.

They all sort of developed over time. Okay. And they sort of grew. That's the way

9 medicine has grown all these years and has become so
10 overwhelmingly huge now with subspecialties. 11

Q

I think you testified earlier that

12 sometimes residents from the University would rotate through 13 Jewish Hospital?

14
15

A

Yes. Would the opposite occur, residents at

Q

16 Jewish rotate through University? 17

At that time I would say no.

There were

18 some attempts to do that from time to time, but I don't

19 recall exactly when that was.

It never

-- it never worked

20 both ways.

Okay. (Whereupon, Defendants' Exhibit 68 was marked for identification purposes.)
Let me hand you a document that's been

Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW

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Page 54 of 96

Page 54
1 identified or marked as Exhibit 68.

2 3

A

Okay. Is that a clean copy? Are there any

Q

4 markings on that? 5 A Yeah, this is okay. Okay. 7 8 9 recently? 10 11 12 is? 13 14 15
A

Yeah, I've seen this one too. Okay. And had you seen this until

Just recently with all this. Okay. And do you recognize what this

Yes. What is this? Well, it's an affidavit of signatures

Q
A

16 indicating that Dr. Patrick is -- has completed his 17 residency and was eligible for state licensure. 18

Q

Okay.

Do you recall signing this for

19 Dr. Patrick?
20

A

No, I don't, but it's obvious I did.

It

21 was in November of ' 7 6 I see that I signed it.
Do you recall any of the circumstances

23 around this? 24 A
No, except when any of our residents

Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW

Document 118

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Page 55 of 96

Page 55 1 applied for state licensure they had to have documentation 2 that they had completed their program and that's what -3 that's what this was, a standard form

--

standard form.

Okay .

It indicates

--

you're signing

5 that he's been in the practice of medicine for the last one
6 and a half years? 7
8

A

Yeah. I guess my first question is is a

Q

9 resident considered in the practice of medicine?
10

A

I would

-- I think so for terms -- in

11 the terms of this, sure. 12
13
14

Q
A

In your view? Oh, yeah. Okay. And the one and a half years,

Q

15 September 1, 1975, and this is November of 1976, do you 16 recall whether someone prepared this form for you or where 17 that figure one and a half years came from? 18 A No. That's probably a guess of my own He was involved a little bit with

19 or an estimate of my own.

20 the cardiac unit before he became

--

before -- in that

21 computing thing he did before he became an intern or a 22 flexible intern. And so I don't know where I got the one

23 and a half, but that's -- he was certainly around the 24 hospital at that time.

Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW

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Page 56
1
2

Q
A

Okay. At least a year and a half more than

3 that I'm sure.

4

Q

.

Do you know whether while he was working

5 in that cardiac unit he was giving patient care? 6

A

No, I don't think so.

That was -- I

7 don't believe
8 been.
9

-- I don't recall. He -- he shouldn't have
Okay. Did residents at Jewish Hospital

I don't recall that he was.

Q

10 at this time as best can you recall have to have any kind of 11 certificate from the Ohio State Medical Board, training or
1 2 temporary certificate?

13

A

To be

--

To serve in the residency program?

A

There was a temporary certificate at one

I don't think
1 7 because

--

I don't think it was required

I don't remember making any effort to get it ready,

18 making sure the residents had that in any of my files.
19

Q
A

Okay. They were allowed to practice within our

20

21 purview with patients as long as they were being overseen by
22 supervision, appropriate supervision.

But I don't recall

23 temporary licensure.

There was talk about it, though, now

24 that you say it.

I have no recollection of being involved

Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW

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Page 57 of 96

Page 57 1 with that at any time.
2.

Q

Okay.

And, again, you left Jewish

3 before -- in the late '80s, correct?
4

A

'86. Okay. That's an interesting question, though.

5

Q
A

7 it kind of bothers me that I don't really remember because
8 it has some familiar ring to it, but I have no recollection

9 of

-- of assuring that we had documentation for the state
I don't

10 board at the time any of our residents were there.

11 recall ever communicating names or even sending lists or 12 anything to them. 13

Q

Okay. (Whereupon, Defendants' Exhibit 69 was marked for identification purposes.)

16

Q

I'm going to show you what we've marked

17 as Defendant's Exhibit 69. This is one of the resumes

I1

18 that's been provided to us from Dr. Patrick, one of his 19 resumes. And I just have a question for you about his Do you see that?

20 description of his residency at the top. 21
A

Well, it says ' 7 4 to '76. Correct. That's That doesn't.

-- that's not --

-- consistent with the certificate?

Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW

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Page 58 of 96

Page 58
1
2 certificate at all.

That's isn't consistent with our And I would not -- I would say he was

3 not a two-year resident.

4
5

Q
A

Okay.

What about --

And it wasn't a residency in surgery and

6 medicine, it was really an internship, flexible internship.

7

Q

And how about University of Cincinnati,

8 did it involve the University of Cincinnati to your 9 knowledge?

10

A

Oh, no, no, no, no, no, nothing that we

11 had anything to do with it. 12

Q

Okay.

If you could look back in this

13 book to Exhibit 52, Dr. Margolin. 14 15 A Okay. Thank you.
52. 52.

Q
A

All right. Again, this is another resume of

17

Q

Okay.

18 Dr. Patrick that has been obtained during discovery in this

19 case.

And, again, I wanted to ask you about his description

2 0 of his postgraduate medical education down almost towards

21 the middle of the fist page.

Do you see that?

22

A

Yeah.

Postgraduate medical education,

2 3 is that what you're talking about?

24

Q

Yes.

Uh-huh, you see the first entry,

Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW

Document 118

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Page 59 of 96

Page 5 9
1 Research in Emergency Medicine, Purdue University and

2 University of Cincinnati with Dr. Henry J. Heimlich,

3 1974-1975.

4
5

A

Uh-huh. Is that your understanding of what he

Q

6 was doing in the year before his residency?
7

A

I -- I don't remember anything related

8 to emergency medicine, no, sir.
9

Q

Okay.

And then do you agree with his

1 0 description of his rotating internship?

Yeah, we called it flexible.
1 2 rotating was an alternative term for it.

But the

13
14

Q
A

Okay. That -- that would not -- that is not

1 5 misdirected at all.

Q

Okay.

And then again, it says Jewish

1 7 Hospital, University of Cincinnati?

18
19

A

Where does it say that? You see that? Oh, no, this is not part

No.

Q
A

20

--

that was

21 not -- our program was completely separate from that of the
2 2 University of Cincinnati. 23

Q

Okay.

And then below that do you see

24 Special Residency in Emergency Medicine under directorship

.

Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW

Document 118

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Page 60 of 96

Page 60 1 of Henry J. Heimlich from 1976 to '78?

I

A

We had

--

Jewish Hospital had no So I have no knowledge of I

I

3 residency in emergency medicine.

4 what that -- where that came from or what that refers to.

5 had no involvement in it.
Okay. This is talking about the emergency 8 medicine as a sub

-- as a specialty in medicine. It doesn't

9 fit our Jewish Hospital thing at all. 10

Q

Do you have any recollection of

I 11.Dr. Patrick still being present in Jewish Hospital after he
12 completed this flexible rotating internship?
13
A

I was trying to think about that.

I

--

14 I don't have a clear idea of what happened after the 15 residency, after the internship. I think -- I am not
16 sure

--

that he was still around a while doing the computing

17 thing. 18
19

Q
A

Okay.

I don't recall any particular period of

20 time when he 21 was there.

--

when he was no longer there or how long he
1

I was trying to think of that the other day.

22 have no -- I just don't recall what happened like, you know,

I1

23 faded away somewhere thereafter and I don't how soon or how

24 late.

Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW

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Page 61 of 96

Page 61
1

Okay.

2
3

I have no idea.
Okay. No idea. And we've not had'any contact

4

5 ever since that time at all until today. 6

Q
A

Okay. That I can recall. If you could turn back a few exhibits in I'd

7
8

Q

9 that book to Exhibit 45, another resume of Dr. Patrick. 10 like you to take a look at that.

All righty.

Have it.

Yeah, there you go. Okay. Resume of March 2002 at the top. Yes, I got it.
16 17
18

Uh-huh. Uh-huh. And, again, the description is post M.D. I'd ask you to take a look at it.
I

19 training. 20

--

I -- I have no idea the

21 relationship on this whole business of the Heimlich Maneuver

22 or how long that went on.
23

I had no involvement in that. So the 1974/'75 description

Q

Okay.

24 there, you have no knowledge of that?

Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW

Document 118

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Page 62 of 96

Page 62 1 A My guess is that Dr. Patrick was around All I knew was the HARP thing

2 the hospital at that time.
3 initially.

4

Q
A

Okay. But whether that's incorporated in that,

6 I 'm unable to say. 7

Q

Okay.

And then how about '75/'76,

8 resident 1 designed for emergency medicine at Jewish

9 Hospital?
10 11 medicine.
12 surgery.

No, it was not designed for emergency It's clearly emphasis on surgery, general

13
14

Q
A

Okay.

And then the '76 to '79, he was there in

15 the hospital.

I don't remember

--

I don't know anything

16 about that. 17

Q

Okay.

Do you remember having any

18 discussions with Dr. Heimlich about arranging a special 19 residency after that -20 A No.

-22

for Dr. Patrick? We were not -- we were not

A

No.

23 accredited in emergency medicine. 24

Q

Okay.

Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW

Document 118

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Page 63 of 96

In fact, I think emergency medicine may 2 have been just becoming a new specialty about that time and
3 there were few sites where training was approved, as I

4 recall:

But again, that's 30 years ago.

I understand.
(Whereupon, Defendants' Exhibit 7 0 was
.

marked for identification purposes. ) I'm going to hand you another document

9 which I've marked as Exhibit 70.

Okay.

I've seen this too. This appears to be an article

12 that you coauthored with Dr. Patrick and Dr. Sanghvi

13 and Russ -- I'm not going to attempt to pronounce the last

Uthurusamy. Uthurusamy. Do you have a recollection

17 of coauthoring this article with Dr. Patrick?

I -- this came across my desk recently.
19 I saw it.

I don't remember -- I don't remember it. My

20 name's on it, I'm embarrassed, but I do

-- I just absolutely
As

21 do not remember this, that my name was on any articles.

22 a matter of fact, I went back and opened my own CV to look
23 it up and I had never recorded this on my own CV.

So

24 somewhere -- either I knew about it and ignored it or

Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW

Document 118

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Page 64 of 96

Page 64
1 deliberately decided not to include it.

I don't know.

This

2 to me was sort of like a surprise to me that my name was on

I1
I

3 here.
4 it.

Though, obviously I'm sure that I was -- I had seen

I must have seen it.
Okay. There's no way this could have gotten by

7 me without me seeing it, but I have no recollection of being
8 involved.

We were involved to the point of discussion of I was not involved with the actual development Dr. Sanghvi I

I
I

9 all this.

1 0 of -- the accomplishment of this program.
11 know was.

He was head of cardiology and he was doing

1 2 patient assessment with

-- with or for Dr. Patrick and for

I

13 his fellow here, this Ramassamy man, but I personally don't 14 remember any hands-on involvement in this -- in any of these
15 programs.

Okay. I -- I must have approved them, though,

I
1

18 because I did know about them, that the were going on.

Q

So as best you can

-- you have no

20 present recollection.

As best as you recall it, you may

1

2 1 have reviewed this -- a draft of this article before it was 22 published?

No recollection. Okay.

Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW

Document 118

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Page 65 of 96

This is like a little blue.

And I'm sorry about that. But you did not participate in the 5 pattern recognition research that Dr. Patrick -Not in the research.

I participated in the discussion about
9 what pattern research was -- pattern recognition was, but I
10 don't remember ever having any hands-on involvement

11 with this -- with this program, with actually developing the

12 program or producing the program.

Do you recall

--

do you recall ever

14 attending a conference where this article or paper was ever

15 presented?

No*

Did I? I'm not going

I don't have any answers.
18 to surprise you.

Maybe I did something I don't know.
20 have total amnesia for.
21 such program.

I

No, I don't recall any such -- any

There came a time when a reporter named
2 3 Tom Francis gave you a call?

Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW

Document 118

Filed 02/07/2008

Page 66 of 96

D i d you have a n y a d v a n c e d warning t h a t

2 h e was g o i n g t o b e c a l l i n g you?
No,

n o t t h a t I remember.

What do you remember a b o u t t h e r e a s o n h e 5 e x p l a i n e d t h a t h e was c a l l i n g you f o r ?
H e was w r i t i n g a n e x p o s e o r some k i n d o f

7 a r t i c l e -- no, d i d n ' t c a l l i t t h a t .

I t was a

--

h e was a n

8 investigative reporter.

And he s a i d h e was d o i n g an
11 i n v e s t i g a t i o n t h a t i n v o l v e d D r .
P a t r i c k and I immediately

12 s a i d I have n o t h i n g t o s a y .
1 3 k e p t bugging me.

He d i d n ' t l e a v e me a l o n e .

He

Kept bugging you i n t h a t 15 subsequent c a l l s o u r i n t h i s p a r t i c u l a r c a l l ?

--

I t h i n k -- I t h i n k t h e r e was more t h a n

17 one c a l l , b u t I'm n o t s u r e . 18 o u t

I t h i n k i n i t i a l l y it turned

--

I t h i n k h e c a l l e d me a s e c o n d t i m e --

-22 c a l l e d a g a i n .

t r y i n g t o -- t r y i n g t o g e t more -- I

21 t h i n k he s e n t m e s o m e i n f o r m a t i o n a n d t h e n -- and t h e n

But I -- I s a i d v e r y l i t t l e on t h e phone

Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW

Document 118

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Page 67 of 96

1 because I don't believe that's how you give information.

Okay.

Well, let me hand you --

I know -- I know he quoted me.
Yes. Out of -- totally out of context. (Whereupon, Defendants' Exhibit 71 was marked for identification purposes.) Let me hand you what's been marked as 9 Exhibit 71. And let me give you some context for this
10 exhibit.

Mr. Francis has produced these and
13 testified that they are a transcription of his notes of his 14 conversation with you.

And if you go through the pages, there
17 appear to be two separate conversations.

Well, that may be. The first four pages a long conversation
20 and the last page a short conversation.

He was record all this as he was talking

He was -- I do not recall. He did
24 testify that some of his interviews were tape recorded, not

Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW

Document 118

Filed 02/07/2008

Page 68 of 96

1 all of them.

He never -- he never told me that. I'm not sure this is one of them or not,
4 but at the very least these'are notes he was

--

-- contemporaneously taking?
Okay. So it's his word against mine.

Well, I just want to ask you some
9 questions. And, actually, I think what we ought to do
10 this is a little lengthy.

--

Let's go off the record for five

11 minutes to give you a chance to review these so we can ask 12 you some questions.okay.

VIDEOGRAPHER:

Going off the record.

(Off-the-record discussion.) VIDEOGRAPHER: Back on the record.

Dr. Margolin, have you had a chance to
17 review Exhibit 71?

I have.

Thank you.

Based on your review, does it appear to
20 be an-accuratereflection of your conversation with Tom 21 Francis?

Yes, I think virtually everything I said
23 is the same thing I've already told you.

Is there

--

is there anything in here as

Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW

Document 118

Filed 02/07/2008

Page 69 of 96

Page 69
1 you were reading through it that struck you as something

2 that you don't believe that you told to Mr. Francis?
3

A

I did not tell him that Dr. Patrick was
I'm sure I didn't tell

4 a resident for three years.
5 Mr. Francis that.

It doesn't say that in there.

6 7

Q
A

Okay. Which got kind of confused. And I know

8 I didn't say anything about not liking Dr. Patrick or not
9 liking Dr. Heimlich, but came out in this article.
10

Okay.

But just limiting it to this

11 document. 12 A All right. The only thing that bothered

13 me is there's a question near the end that says, "You shared
14 an office with Heimlich?" And I said, "Correct." "Why did

15 he leave Jewish Hospital?" And I assumed he meant Heimlich
16 because the answer had to do with Heimlich and not with

17 Dr. Patrick. 18 19

Q
A

Okay. When I read it first I thought he was

20 asking about Patrick, but I think he was asking me about

21 Heimlich. 22
23

Okay. And the answer refers to Heimlich. Okay.

24

Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW

Document 118

Filed 02/07/2008

Page 70 of 96

Do you recall

--

there was some

3 discussion about this article on Page 3 of this document?

Yes.

Yes.

And I think you indicate there as you
6 did here that you have your own CV and that there was no

7 article on there?

That is correct. Do you know if
10 number.

--

and then there's a fax

Is that your fax number? That's my fax number. Do you know whether Mr. Francis faxed

13 you this article for you to look at?

Oh, he sent me some stuff in between

That's probably what that meant.
18 that is correct.

I

--

That's my fax number and he did send me

19 some information and then I think after that I didn't talk
20 much to him.

Okay.

He -- there was some discussion

22 on the first page about an affidavit bearing your signature 23 and it sounds like from his notes that you at the time 24 weren't sure what he was referring to?

Case 1.05-cv-02791-LW

Document I 18

Filed 0210712008

Page 71 of 96

Page 71
' T b a t v s corrmt.

Apparently

--

Maw

YO.~ think

it's the affkdavit we've

3 @Is-cuasedto the medical baa&&?

Thatuswhat J t h i n k he was tellifig I W
5 that I s i g n e d f o r because I knew indicating here 1 had nst
6 signed t h e i n t e r n s h i p certifi,eate.
i

I;,

Okay,

1 sai-d that in bere too.

Q

Okay.

A n d da yau recalk ~h6th- he

10 faxed t h a t to you, that a-ffidaufk?

I

25 is t h e a r t i c l e on Heimlich?

I
/

-

reme&

s&&q k a ~fi-wa -4;

Is t h a t what $@ ;Wt .m? Or

16 was it on

-CI

couldn't have been an a r t i c l e .
Okay.

I don't know.

17

He does mentian in here that he

18 had j u s t written an article about Df. Heimlich and I think
19 you a n f i r m e d that you had read t h a t or that you had seen

20 t h a t .
21

I

Do you remember that?

I had s e e n something on that. T have t h e papers here.

I don't
Maybe I
sea

22 remerrber what he faxed me,
23 ran

identify it from the fax n o t e s to h e l p you.

I don't

24 any t a x designation

on any of t h e pieoes of paper that I've

Case 1.05-cv-02791-LW

Document I 18

Filed 0210712008

Page 72 of 96

i
1,

Page 72

1~een !given. 2
3.
4 did

6-

I

P
A

'Okay.

So I : an't rea1Ly rernembgr f a r sure,

I

an article on Heimlich I t h i q k that s a w man had
What's his name?
Yes.

5 written.

Tom F r a n c i s .
Had he written that befdre

Tam Francis.

He had written an a r t i c l e a b a ~ t
10 Dr. Heimlich.

11

Well, Maybe t h n t V , s
faxed to me.

-- 1 did

see that arid

I donTt t h i n k I had any athc.~

1 3

access to it.
Okay =

Unless swwbady gav@ &$

& Q

% don't

Okay,

Okay,

Do you remember these n o t e s

--

this

some discussion abaut an WSF grant?
2 1.

Yeah.

And

I don't know where that

came

Case 1.05-cv-02791-LW

Document I 18

Filed 0210712008

Page 73 of 96

Page 73

3

d b ,not.

'dliay.

I see it's in here.
Okay,

So you were n o t aware

--

at least

5 &n't

Irecall b e i n g aware t h a t Dr. P a t r i c k may have been
I

% wprkirsg , . un&r an NSF grant?

7-

10 me aho t t h a t until I ' m reading this if t h a t was, t h e correct

$1 \
9

1

W

I have no remllection of that at all,
Okay.
A n d I do remember t h a t

Q
A
notes

Mr. Francis asked

'P

right.

HR. ZIRM:

Okay.

I don't have any more

questions for you at t h i s time, D r . Masgalin.
Mr. Blankenship I'm sure will.

CROSS-EXAMINATION
16 BY MR. BLANKENSHIP:
17

18 EEI

I lg in

" .
:
4

I I

Dr. Margalin, my name is Jeff

ken h&@,

My bi.pt-r

'Randy q d 9 reptesmt DS +Patrick
Scerig.
Hsvd you 'had
.

.

/

I~#&'T s a l t f i l e d against C&ve;lqfi#

2(i

a n ~ \ a p p p o ~ u n to i t y review the a r t i c l e w h i h

h i t h e su1,5e~k . QZ

Yes, I have.
XCts, e n t i t l e d "Playing ~ o c t o x * ?

Ye@.

Case 1.05-cv-02791-LW

Document I 18

Filed 0210712008

Page 74 of 96

Page 74

C

L@&q;= &qa

@3? @a$#A*@

qe &pg $@4

m a * ! #< m@I a $ t3$!i$
b&
,*&.
&a a-&&
Uh-huh

Mi?$!@

&

-

B *

.

m c ? ;

*

& &ha & I & @ *

.
It says,

Q.

You

are quoted staxting qt the bottom of

d page, next to the last paragraph.
8 I 3 2 . Gopion MargoLin: was the
h

heed of Sewtsh Hospitalts
Do you see t h a t ?

9 ipter.qblPnediciae depar'tment.

I

l o ' 11

12 third paragraph an the neat page are statements which

I

I

Yes* That's correct.

*

Beginning there and going ~ n t o about the

13 HE. Francis attributes to you.

l

15

I 16 then I have a couple of questiarrs to a s k
-

IA
Q
A

Uh-huh.

Just t a k e a moment to look at that and

you.

Yaw read it. &ay. First of af l, it 18 Q 19 says, r ~ f e r r i n gto you, first,, y ~ u ,Dr. Margolin, cla8inrthat
2 O Patrickjwas at Jewish
4

/ /

Okay,

I've read it.

Ear unly on& 'year. Three m i n u k e s

he shared P a t r i c k stayed f o r three ymrs.

22 Did you jlaont~qdA~t y ~ u r s i e l f in tkat c~nvessationwith
23

--

A

Vh-

X

-Francis?

24

, p

- Pat.

Case 1.05-cv-02791-LW

Document I 18

Filed 0210712008

Page 75 of 96

!
Sge,
t- the docmmt,,

Page 75

I had: ehbQ i f i m%~%.d when I xead
t h i n k therefs;my

1

He pas arbund a e h b s s t a l fm

&fee pears,

4 but he was only in the p ~ ,.. o g r @E i iq i
.

par:,
t h i n k if you read t h a t ,

5

6

1

Okay. A

h d I don't

-- I

7 that's; what I said.
8

Q
A

Okay.

9

I think this is incorrect.

I didn't

I

10 contradict myself.
So

do you believe that h a s 4 upon y o u r

I

12 reading t h i s a r t i c l e and based upon what you eme ember
13 tellinq Mr. Francis

--

--

that h & ha^ taken what you b&Pe a t

Y e , Z absolutely do.

I
(
19 again,
I

I

$

Okay,

Hext page

&E

says,

'!Yeu d i d it

'But after being tala t h a t i
QQ

xefercing to you, "his

2.A s i g n a t u r e is

an a f f i d a v i t kqying P.atrfd;.k pmacti~eda t
y n a ~ s , Margalin rrve.r~ed

1 21 Jewish tospital f a one and a haif
23 fes;ide'rrg." Dfci p u
I

22 coqrse. , suddenly ke is certain ~ d t r i c k was indeed a

evdr
No,

s&y that

he wasn't a resident?
1 aekn6wledged the fact

24

'
1

A

No.

1

--

Case 1.05-cv-02791-LW

Document I A8

Filed 02/07/2008

Page 77 of 96

Page 77

.Q/

.

that

kqow Qr,. Sanghvi w a s there.

Qkay,
9 wasng8 +t hhat didzrTt coma tb n z d

I

as

(

~afp them and when m O 3 a s n iik,
And, Dr. X =% - =T @ k & ~ ~ d 2% i that

--h yea?

-use

t&q - s&y& khgm

,=p~,

sp.

I Sj- @ p

him a yea+

several hundred'.
Tkfi ;new. ames a y e a ?

Case 1.05-ev-02791-LW

Document I 18

Filed 0210712008

Page 78 of 96

Twen'ty-slev~tgp a r & ten & yeak, 270

At 1-east.
A t Lgg&&$@
'..

-

W % P

I g@@ - - , in t h e n a t e s ,
.

bv.t

!don't see in the a r t i c l e something t h a t y @ &

told

8

And P ka-ic have a right to c l a i m t h a t he did a re~fdency?~'

' I $4 %cVs l i k e from t h e
I

r

I

Q

And you're asked if you did

-- "Did Ds,

notes

-- you've

seen the notes# there

//
(

11 they a r e

-- on

Page 2 aboUt three paragxaphs down, it

12 ap@@ats that you said, and I quote, I think it was a
13 legitimate year.

That * s correct.
Now,

you said

didn'k sign t h e

?hat s r i g h t .

Ycns made sure Dr. Heimlich signed it?
T-Qat s csrrect

.
$@. Heimlich was mare

Was t h a t b

(

gj '&&lved with Dr. PZ&Z&& than you?

I

Yeah.

He

--

he arranged

->

aske8 for
was

and the thing was t o be

--

the empbasi.

24 on BurgeTy and be and I wer& of eqpal standing in t h e

Case 1.05-cv-02791-LW

Document I 18

Filed 0210712008

Page 79 of 96

Page 79

2 role +a, sign

for: it,
Okay.

3
1

Have ydu ever heard of what was

4 c a l l e d t h e p r a c t i c e eoute far eniergency niedicfne?

5
6

A

No.
Hot f d T $ a r w%bh &ae
ESQ

B
I

k m ?

7
8

A

9 Emergegcy Medicine began certifying physicians as emergency

I

Q

Do you know when t h e Bmezican B ~ a r dof

10 doctors?

No, I do not.

I t h i n k my n o t e s in hare

12 say I thought ~ y b there e was an emergency medicine program

13 a t t h e :bnlversity at this time, but I don't know when it
14 started.
It was a fairly dew program.

I don't knaw when --

15 when erriergency medicine began certification.

I think you s a i d in your testimony from
17 M $ .

~ i r f athat
A

the whole area of emergency medicine

18 epecialktation was n e back ~ in t h i s day?
Yeah.

Well, people were doing emergency

20 medicine, I'd bape, so to speak, j u s t hecause
I

--

they're

21 s t i l l doing :,%k, There's a 1 ~ t of places w h e r e people still
22 do it without certification, but the actual residency and
23 the
I

--

qnd t h e c e r t i f i c a t i o n , it was a later development in

24 my experience, in my lifetime.

Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW

Document 118

Filed 02/07/2008

Page 80 of 96

If you look at the article where he
2 says, "One moment he says there's no way Patrick did an

3 emergency medicine residency and claims he would have
4 never'' -5
6

A

What page is that on? I'm looking at the bottom of the

Q

7 article, Page 2.

8

A

Page 2. "Claims he would have never signed a

10 residency certificate, but after being told that his
11 signature is on an affidavit saying Patrick practiced at

12 Jewish Hospital for 1.5 years, Margolin reverses course. 13 Suddenly he is certain Patrick was indeed a resident."

You

14 say you never did change your mind in this conversation? 15

I didn't change my mind.

I can't read

16 it that way at all.

I said he was a -- he was a

--

he had a

17 qualifying residency and flexible residency or whatever we

18 called it at the time, flexible internship.

But I never

19 said he had an emergency medicine qualification.

Right.
21 putting them together? 22

So he's taking two concepts and

A

Yeah, they got overlapped somehow.
So, again, what you said was taken out

23

Q

24 of context?

Case 1.05-cv-02791-LW

Document I 18

Filed 0210712008

Page 81 of 96
-

.-

-

Exactly.

'IIn fact, you said I n your i n t e r v i e w w i t h >
3 h i m accsrdfng to his nates if you look at t h e bottom sf' Page

4: 2'; oS
5
6
7

ME. F r a n c i s

n o t e s , last l i n e you s a i d , and I quote,

NB,

he was there.
A
I

T%&t 1 can promise
Ye-ah

you,

didn't you?

.

8

Please loak at agairr Mr. Ftancis* notes

Okay.

Page 3 sf those notes about

--

jugt

34
I3
23

& @ @ ,halfway dolrn r i g h t a f t e x the l i n e that says Gape
I

,

Wxth C,aroli.na.

i
30

A

Right.

The question

is, "Why has he moved

much?"

Was that your .quastion or Mr, Francisr

That appa~antlywas my guesuon.
And

Mr. Francis told you what?

It says here, "Nevak g o t a reoldcney
had tqo ga to states w i t h %he loosest
IF

That was not mine.

Q
A

Y@u didn ' t say kha t?
No, I didnrt say that.
!@$ M,r. F~anc&ik

that

a@, tf

it

Case 1.05-cv-02791-LW

Document I 18

Filed 0210712008

Page 82 of 96

Page 82

MR. ZXRM:

Objection.
T h a t t B okay,

MR, B-LANKENSRIF:

I'11

That's in his

--

okay.

6
J

g

8 &i

,ie

: I - . s~sidencyo

$d
1

:@ -

Okay.

Nowf as an i n t e r n in that f i r s t

r first year of

internship, w o u d

Phtrfck have handled p a t i e n t s ?
A

&urea

Q

would w~rk,wi&b gatgents like a strake

I t;EInk you weze asked about a stzoke v i c t W ?
A

Yeahr W t 5

--

yes, I

W ~ S ~$k&,

Sum

Not X hgpe

m

idea.

d b yo= believe you w d e y o u r e X f .clear+

rancis that Dr. Patrick did indeed do a 0ne-p,ar .W&'W*@$: @.g ~W&*"B .
,

That's the way 3

this.

MR. XIRM:

@bT'ee@&~m,.

You caDTmayaer .
I &an answex
<
?

ie?
&

-x&#a i @ gm9wgg

Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW

Document 118

Filed 02/07/2008

Page 83 of 96

Page 83
MR.

ZIRM:

Yes.
I said t h i s

T h a t ' s t h e way I read t h i s .

3 w a s an a c c r e d i t e d r e s i d e n c y and h e d i d do t h a t a n d I knew

1

4 t h a t was true.

Okay. 6 yourself clear to M r .

And do you b e l i e v e you a l s o made

F r a n c i s t h a t D r . P a t r i c k was a t J e w i s h

7 a n a d d i t i o n a l p e r i o d o f t i m e p r i o r t o h i s r e s i d e n c y working

8 i n t h e computer d i a g n o s t i c s t u d i e s ?
A

Yes,

I do.

If you l o o k a g a i n a t t h e t h i r d p a g e o f

11 t h e a r t i c l e , t h i r d f u l l p a r a g r a p h down a n d I r e a d , "While i t

I

1 2 w a s no s e c r e t among h o s p i t a l s t a f f t h a t M a r g o l i n had a low
13 o p i n i o n o f H e i m l i c h and e v e n l e s s r e g a r d f o r P a t r i c k .
1 4 you e v e r t e l l M r .

"

Did

Francis that?
NO,

15

A

I n e v e r s a i d t h a t e v e r i n my l i f e

1 6 t h a t I know a b o u t a n d i t d o e s n ' t r e f l e c t i n t h i s

--

in this So I

1 1 7 d o c u m e n t a t i o n t h a t w e h a v e h e r e from
1 8 d o n ' t know where h e g o t t h a t . 19

Mr.

Francis.

Q

Then i t s a y s , " H i s s i g n a t u r e "

--

20 r e f e r r i n g t o your s i g n a t u r e

--

"was a n enormous f a v o r t o Did you s i g n

21 b o t h , " meaning D r . H e i m l i c h a n d D r . P a t r i c k .

22 t h e a f f i d a v i t t h a t w e ' v e l o o k e d a t as a favor t o 2 3 D r . Heimlich o r D r . P a t r i c k ? 24
A

No, n o t a t a l l .

That w a s

-- t h a t

was a

Case 1.05-cv-02791-LW

Document I 18

Filed 02/07/2008

Page 84 of 96

2 &gna

' I

Page 8 4

- m a , that was a routine signature for

--

indicat3ng

P the mbn w a s eligible at that point f o r state licenaure, baaed
3 an hid having ~omp'leteda resldqcy or a year of taL&dng

at

Would p u have signed i-k had you Ew&t h~

Qh, ,ii&,
So you didnl t do it as a favar f o r

No,

PIOr

no, no, no.

That was

--

that

Okay.
A r i d t h a t was

--

i-t was

-- it Was tt
the

&-dl!@,.;&@g vigature.
15

Q okay. When I 16 & l i c a t i o n process f o r getting
17 at J e w

\

It was properly $ighedyay w e ~ easked a&ut

inta t h e residency program

4. ~ h
A

Hospital, you had mentiGn9d that there u s u a l l y

I f 3were aktompanying document in addition to the application?

19

1

Righe
Ahd

.%&I I

a

I believe that l s Exhibit 35.

a Page 2 ef
24 graduat,
I&~B$.

that

*

DD you see that ?

Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW

Document 118

Filed 02/07/2008

Page 85 of 96

Uh-huh. And what is Dr. Patrick's answer? It says, "Full professor.
4 Must have been an attached CV.

See CV."

Is that what you're saying?

5

Q

Yes.

So it appears that there was an

6 attached CV.
7

A

Must have been an attached CV which we

8 don' t have here.

9

Okay.

And that's also on the next

10 answer as well, isn't it, "See CV"?

11

A

Yeah, but that would be Dr. Patrick's I mean, I

-

12 report of his background, unconfirmed report.

13 don't have any reason to believe it's not right, but that

--

Sure.

-- would be what I have.
I guess what.I1mtrying to get at is
17 that there appear to have been additional documents
18 attached?

Yeah, it does appear. Do you know how long Jewish Hospital

21 would normally maintain medical transcripts, schedules and
22 that sort of thing on a resident?
23

A

As long as I was there and had any

24 control over it, we kept all the residents' packet files as

Case 1.05-cv-02791-LW

Document I 18

Filed 02/07/2008

Page 86 of 96

Page 86

2

3
'

+
I

Ths~,e w e r e same that

we$@,

u&

i
I

Lder than my #>appea.xing there.

T h e y were k e p t vexy

41+51y f

by a Secretary tll;ft adn6t even work in e d w i o n
&$

4

a& $&$
I
I

Z hew.

We Bould @e"veP'I%aity loo$ gp t h e o l d

5 ones, but a s long as 1 was there, t h e r e was a f i l e that was

6 fSfStfhtdined straight through.
Now, how l o n g they keep them?
8

As far as

4 hod,
I

I donft know that any were ever thrown o u t in my
w, what's happened since then

--

because we still

ery so o f t e n I s t i l l g e t an occasional letter from

pita1 +$ing

that.gg and so served under you as a
s$il;k

& & I
s t ,

$h@ f a c t . that Xfrn

aY$%& &d c@n ansGer

E can

answeE ik, but g e n e ~ a l l y Yt goas to the'
traifikng..

1J
15

1.
quid

fgf confirmation of

l

I
I

@
A

Qkay

.
I

T t h i n k they keep them all.

--

I

&h%n'kt h e y should be deskxoyed.

Q

Buk as far as the cantents a P t h a t f i l e ,

1

o
3,

w if, say, fgr axarnpJa, the schedule

- the

schedule or whatever was kept in t h e f i l e ? Possibly n a t .

When you ga through a

&&

: e & i %&.Ir b

iianuary it was signeiiby Las, X* that

.q$
3%

Z

%f@. EBg: _ ... w ,_ ~ 5 @&$ @ -!

_

~~~ -$ I $ #a-t
.
- A

:C@@he!

:

r c q . I

, ,

- - = A %

,

*-@$&&WS kgq .wF@thW

rh@,ntv a ~ d SQ

@G

!

'I'

Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
5

Document 118

Filed 02/07/2008

Page 87 of 96

1 actual schedule was put in each file, I

--

I have my doubts.

Whether they were kept in another file
4 that one could look back and see when people 5 were scheduled

--

how people

-- the schedules are of no count once the
It's the file and the documentation that So I

6 resident is gone.

7 they've done what they've done that's in the file.

8 doubt very much that a lot of the schedules are in those 9 files to the best of my recollection.

Back in -- I'm sorry. The yearly schedules, yeah. Okay. Back in the late '70s was there

13 some type of an affiliation between Jewish Hospital and the 14 UC Medical Center?

A formal in writing affiliation?
Or even informal? As I said, some

--

there were some

18 residents who were rotating through Jewish based on each
19 departmental arrangement.

Like if an OB resident rotated

20 through, it was between the OB doctors and the two 21 hospitals.

I don't -- it must have been okayed by

22 administration, but I didn't have anything to do with it. 23 Or orthopedics, we had some orthopedic residents rotating 24 through for a month or so, they'd get some experience at

Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW

Document 118

Filed 02/07/2008

Page 88 of 96

Page 88

1 Jewish.

So I guess there were some informal, but I don't

2 recall any fully formal arrangements that went between the
3 two hospitals.
4

Q

Okay.

Did any of the professors, for

5 example, at the UC medical school also teach some of the
6 residents at Jewish Hospital?

7

A

Well, I was a professor at the medical

8 school at the time and I was

--

I was teaching, of course,

9 and some of our staff men had positions and did some 10 teaching at the University teaching and teaching with us,
11 but of the full-time professorial staff at the University, I

12 don't believe there was anyone teaching at our place.
13

Q
A

Okay.

Full time?

Well, that's another thing that changed When I first started, a lot of

15 over the years.

16 practitioners in the community would go to the University

17 and help do the teaching and make rounds, they'd run clinics
18 and so forth. Later on the University began hiring more and

19 more physician setting up their own departments and
20 gradually pushing aside the people who were in practice who

21 were coming in and doing some teaching.

But many of them

22 had appointments because they had been working at the

23 University and were interested in academics, but they became
1

24 inactive in that field.

So there was an overlap at the

--

Case 1.05-cv-02791-LW

Document 118

Filed 0210712008

Page 89 of 96

Page 8 9
1 Jkwisb
W$S

right

aCTOS5 the

street fkaa the University afid a

2 lot of our 4octms were involved, but tha-k g d Q a l l y
3 diaappea~edas the University built up its own campIement of
4 full-time people.

A r e ybu familbaz w i t h the-

6 concept or the t e r m locum tehens?
Yeah.

I
I

Can you explain f u r the recard what t h a t

9 means?
,
I

I

1

la 1well, but
I

A

Z don't knw if I can define

i t real

let's say

--

let's say I 'a an obstetrician and I

12 retirel ar want to kake kt: easy and n o t haye a gractice
I

f 3 anmore,

Tt

possible t h a t 1 can find uahally through an

14 agency8& dq~tgr whq3s,p i n g .on vacatPon Eolp two w e e k s , & n

13 abstet.ric&an 5n a small town in Ohio and h e wants h i $
Then I &@=M be hired if I: have the r i g h t
17 ctedentials to work Fa his o f f i c e , cauex h i s o f f i c e for a
!

18 couple s f weeks and get paid fop: that period of kAme,

L,ocum

(

14 tenens a-re.filler inner dactors, many t i m w retired 20 ~ p H y s i c ~ a n that s w a t t~ waxk s h ~ s t periods tlaa and ;2arii
21 sme s i t r a mney after mey no Longer have t h e i r a m active
22 p A e t j a e g .
I

1
1

4

23

G2

Ba you know if t h a t ' s

--

if F t i s

a

in the emergen= medicali field -fur ho>spAga81s

Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW

Document 118

Filed 02/07/2008

Page 90 of 96

Page 90 1 to hire doctors on a locum tenens basis?
2
A

I have no idea.
Okay. Is there anything else in the

3

Q

4 article -- 1'11 call you back -- call back your attention to
5 Exhibit 38.

6
7

A

No. Anything else in the article that's been

Q

8 attributed to you which you think is either false or taken 9 out of context?
10

A

Well, that statement I'm going to repeat

11 that I said

-- it says that I had a low regard for Heimlich
I -- I think that's totally out of

12 and for Patrick.
13 context.

hat

doesn't even appear in this transcript and I

14 just can't believe I would have said that.

Okay.

And it doesn't appear -- from

16 what you've reviewed, it doesn't appear in the notes of

17 Mr. Francis either, does it?

18

A

I don't see it in there. Okay. I'm surprised I gave Mr. Francis as much

21 information as I did.

It was all straight up information,

22 but T was trying to get him off the phone.

Dr. Margolin, if you look at .the very
24 last page of Mr. Francis' notes.

Case 1.05-ev-02791-LW

1

Document I 18

Filed 0210712008

Page 91 of 96

0ka y . ;O$' :M,@ . , g g ~ w , $
Y e s , of : b & i ' ~ a t e please. ~~

Y-eah
4

I I:
I

.
do you see about the third. I-fine

The

--

5 down it says,

"He wasntt in a residency.

If t h a t refera to

, B Dr. P a t r i c k , did you say t h a t ?

7
8 Let's

A

He says 1 s a i d it, but that

--

okay.

but I kever denied that Dr. P a t r i c k had a year

I

t
1

,ay he was

in an internship, if you want to be p i c k y ,

I
11

I "kin*
I

I

6 '-rainingat Jewish Hospital.
patients, he wasn't

--

official

In fact, the Line above that says*

sitting on h i s thumbs," Qpe=s2gWt

13 if?

" 1j
15
16 19

Yeah.

Q
A

DO you remember -saying t h a t ? NO, I don't remember using t h a t

17 terminology at a l l , but he wrote it.

MR. BLANKENSHIP:
have no f u r t h e r guestiona,

Okay.

Dr. Margalin, _. I

Thank yuu wery much

g@r sour time

today.

RECROSS-EXAMINATIm

I have j u s t a couple mure.
Suxe

Case 1105-cv-02791-LW

Document I 18

Filed 0210712008

Page 92 of 96

Page 92

1
I

I ' d like you ta tdke back Exhibit 65,

2 O X . ~4txick's certificate.

That's in this pile heie.

bb, okay.
A w t d m i b i t 68, which I:

believe 5s t-he

i 5 .af f iddvit f o r the Ohio Medical Board.
X don' t have i-t here.

T h e m you ' g ~ .
Okay.
Now,

didn t yau tell me t h a t you were

II
1

12 basioAlly anwilling to s i g n Dr. Patrick's resident
13 certificate?

Yes, I d i d .
B u t you were w i l l i \ n g to sign the Nedical

16 Board A f f i d a v i t of Physicians?
Right

l h a t was t h e difference to you? This
20 residehcy was under Dr.

---

this aff-

--

tbka s e r t i f f ~ a t e of

h i s residency training was under

I

21 Dr. Heimlich.

So 1 f e l t Dr. Heimlich should o f f i c i a l l y make

22 t h a t over h i s signature as an official year at the J e w i s h
And I wasn't responsible f o r Dr. P a t r i c k f o r m o s t

1 23 Hospital.

I

24 of the'year a n d he allegedly was the way o u r documents read.

I-

Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW
9 , -

Document 118

Filed 02/07/2008

Page 93 of 96
1

Page 93
1 This other one having to do with Affidavit of Physicians for 2 the State of Ohio, that was just an affirmation that he had

3 served a year at Jewish Hospital.

I don't think there's any

4 conflict in those two -- in those two signatures or lack of

5 signatures.
Didn't you also say earlier that one of
7 the reasons you were unwilling to sign the certificate was 8 because you had some misgivings about Dr. Patrick's

9 performance during that year?
10 11

A

Well -Not performance. Whether he completed

Q

12 the program the way that others had completed the program?

13

A'

Yeah, I said I had some misgivings, but

14 obviously felt that he had performed adequately to receive a
15 certificate.
16

Q

Do you know whether -- Mr. Blankenship You talked about the

17 asked you questions about the article.

18 statement in the article that says you held Dr. Patrick and 19 Dr. Heimlich in low opinion, you had a low opinion for both 20 of them.

Do you know whether Mr. Francis received that

21 information from someone other than you? 22

A

I have no idea.

I

--

obviously I didn't

23 say it in his 24

-You didn't tell him?

Q

MR. ZIRM:

Okay.

That '"sall t&,

questions I have f o r you.
MR. BWINEWdSHIP : NothLng furthe:,

Dr, Margolfn.

Vf~EOGRAPHER: Going off the record.
End a3 deposition.
The time is 3:37.

(Deposition concfuded at 3:37

p.m.)

Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW

Document 118

Filed 02/07/2008

Page 95 of 96

Page 95
I have read the foregoing transcript from page 1 through 94 and note the following corrections:
PAGE

/4

LINE 2

REQUESTED CHANGE

13

23
3 e7/

i-7

R v e v R L L 4 w

rn

Esar Gordon ~argoli& M.D. Subscribed and sworn to before me this

g/

day

I

of

,

2007.

My commission expires

Case 1:05-cv-02791-LW

Document 118

Filed 02/07/2008

Page 96 of 96

Page 96
1
2 STATE OF OHIO
: SS:

C E R T I F I C A T E

3 COUNTY OF HAMILTON
4

I, Jennifer K. Starner, the undersigned, a duly

5 qualified and commissioned Notary Public within and for the

6 State of Ohio, do hereby certify that before giving of the

1

7 aforesaid deposition, the said ESAR GORDON MARGOLIN, M.D.
8 was by me first duly sworn to depose the truth, the whole

9 truth and nothing but the truth; that the foregoing
1 0 deposition was given at the said time and place and was 11 taken in all respects pursuant to agreement of counsel 1 2 hereinbefore set forth; that the deposition was taken in 1 3 stenotypy by me and transcribed into typewritten form under
14

my supervision; that the transcribed deposition is to be

15 submitted to the witness for his examination and signature,
1 6 and that signature may be affixed out of the presence of the

17 Notary Public; that I am neither relative, attorney, nor 18 employee of any party or their counsel and have no interest
1 9 in the result of this pending action. 20
I N WITNESS

WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand

2 1 and official seal of office at Cincinnati, Ohio, this

22

day of My commission expires: March 7, 2009

,

2007.

Jennifer K. Starner, RPR Notary Public