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SUPREME COURT OF THE STATE OF NE\'1 YOP.

K
COUNTY OF NEW YORK
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CHIC EDER,
Plaintiff,
-against-
ALAN J. NEBERMAN a/k/a A. J.
WEBERM.l\N, WILLIAM J. RYAN ,
MARIANNE PARTRIDGE, RUPER.T
MURDOCH and THE VILLAGE VOICE,
INC.,
Defendants.
-------------------- --- --------- - - -----x
Deposition of plaintiff CHIC EDER , taken
by defe ndqnt ALAN J. WEI3ERl1AN , pursua nt to notice
dated Febr uary 2, 1979, at the offices of David
S. Michaels, Esq ., 342 Madison Avenue, New York,
N. Y. 10017, on February 16, 1 979, at 2:00 p .m.,
before Shary n L. Bamber, a Shorthand Reporter
and Nofary Public of the State of New York.
BLITZ REPORTING CO.
C ERTI FI ED S H O RTH A,.., 0 REPOR TERS
15 P A R K ROW. N . Y . 10038
PHONES: 349-3 108-9
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APPEARANCES:
Messrs. ROSENSTEIN & KAHN,
Attorneys for p laintiff ,
225 Broadway
New York, N. Y. 10007
BY: MAPC KAHN I ESQ . I
Of Counsel
DAVIDS . MICHAELS, ESQ.,
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Attorney for defendant Alan J. Weberman,
342 Madison Ave nue
New York , N. Y. 1001 7
ALSO PRESENT:
A. J. WEBER.MAN
oOo
IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED, by and
between the attorneys for the r espective partie s
hereto that a ll rights provided by the CPLR, in-
e l uding ~ ~   right to object to a ny ques tion, except
as to the f orm, or to move to strike any t es timony
at this deposition , are reserved , a nd, in addition,
t h e failure to object to a n y question, or to move
to strike tes timony at this deposition , shall not
be a bar or waiver to make s uch mo tion at, and is
reserved for , the trial of this action.
IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED that
this deposition may be sworn to, by the witness
B LI TZ REPORTING CO.
15 PARK R OW, N.Y. 10038 PHONES: 3 4 9-3108- 9
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being examined, before a Notary Public other than
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the Notary Public before whom this deposition was
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begun, but t,'1e failure to do so, or to return the
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original of this deposition to counsel, shall not
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be deemed waiver of the rights provided by Rule
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3116, CPLR, and shall be controlled thereby.
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IT IS FURTHER STIPULATED AND AGREED that
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the filing and certification of the original of
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this deposition are waived.
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MR. KAHN: Before we begin the deposition
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of Mr. Eder, I would like the record to note it is
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now 10 after 2 p .m., and that the attorneys for Mr.
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William Ryan, Mr. Rupert Murdoch and The Village
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Voice have not appeared this afternoon.
The record should also note they served
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a notice to take deposition upon oral examination of
.,
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Mr. Eder, dated February 2, which I received Febru-
ary 5th, and that subsequently the attorneys for the
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above-named defendants agreed they would be present
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in Mr. Michaels' office this afternoon, on the 16th,
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in order that both depositions could proceed at the
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BLITZ REPORTING CO.
15 PARK ROV.
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, N.Y. 10038 PHONES: 349-3108-9
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2 same time and explicitly, so that Mr. Eder, who is
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here from out of town, would not have to be unduly
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inconvenienced.

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The record should also note that this
6 morning at 10:30 I received a telephone call from
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Mr. Slade Metcalf, who is counsel to the above-
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named defendants who for the first time advised me
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that because of the presence of office work in his
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office he did not choose to attend this deposition.
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I pointed out to Mr. Metcalf that my client had
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flown into New York especially for this deposition,
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from out of town and in fact from overseas, and that
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this would work an extreme hardship on Mr. Eder. I
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further pointed out that since this was Mr. Metcalf's
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notice of deposition, I expected him to be here and
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if he preferred not to attend the deposition, we
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would assume he had waived his rights to depose Hr.
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Eder and that we would seek additional relief as
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necessary under the CPLR.
I served a letter to that effect on Mr.
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Metcalf this morning, a copy of which I would like
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to put into this record and I would also like to put
into the record a copy of my client's passport.
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Just a notation for the record, my client'
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BLITZ REPORTING CO.
15 PARK RO\'/, N.Y. 10038 PHONES: 349-3109-9
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2 passport
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THE WITNl.:SS: Showed I arrived here
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from out of the count ry last nir,ht at 7:20.

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MR . KAHN : At JFK Airport.
6 Aeain, explicitly for the purpose
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of attending this deposition.
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Having said that, we are prepared to
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go forth with Mr .   s deposit i on not i ced by  
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Michaels, on behalf of hi s c lie nt, A. J . Weberman .
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C H I C E D E R, plaintiff, called as a witnes s
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by the defendant Alan J. Weberman, be ing first
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duly sworn by the Notary Public ( Sharyn L. Bamber ),
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testified as follows:
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EXAMINATION BY MR . MICHAELS:
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Q Would you s tate your full l egal name , please?
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A My l egal name, as far as the courts , Chic
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Eder .
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Q What is the name appeari ng o n yo ur birth
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certificate?
MR . KAHN : Off the record .
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(Di s cussion off the r ecord.)
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MR. KAHN: I am goine to object
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because it is irrelevant for any purpose tha t
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pertains to this examinat ion.
BLITZ REPORTING C O.
15 PARK R O W. N.Y. 10038 PHO NES: 349-3108- 9
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Eder
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MR. MICHAELS:
Asking his name?
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THE WITNESS: You are asking the name
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that appears on my birth certificate? I refuse to

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answer that question.
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MR. KAHN:
If you want to seek an order
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directing him to answer that, you can.
8 BY MR. MICHAELS:
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Q What is your legal name?
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A Chic Eder.
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Q Have you ever used any other name?
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A I have used numerous other names.
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Q What names?
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A I prefer not to answer that question.
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MR. KAHN: Again, I object to that as
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not being relevant to the instant proceeding. I
direct him not to answer that question.
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A I would like to state for the· ·record that I am
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known only by that name at this point in time.
Q
I-Ia\re you ever been kno\vn to any government
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agencies under any other names?
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A Possibly.
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Q What names?
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A It's irrelevant to this case and I refuse to
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answer it.
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Eder 7
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MR. MICHAELS: Off the record.
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(Discussion off the record.)
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MR. MICHAELS: On the record.

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Q
Do you concede you have, in. the course of your
6 life, used various other names, other than the one you are
7 now telling us is your name?
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A
I do, but I 'vant to add to that that I have
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never appeared before any cotirt, body or governmental
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agency in this decade, the seventies, by any other name.
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Q Did you ever appear before a court, body or
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governmental agency at any time under another name?
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A Not in this decade.
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Yes, in the sixties or prior, I have.
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Q
How many times?
A
I have been in court? I never appeared before
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a grand jury at any time anywhere to testify before a grand
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jury.
Q
The question, if you recall, is whether you
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at any time, whether prior to the seventies or durincr the
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seventies, appeared before any court, grand jury, or any
governmental agency under any other name?
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MR. RAHN:
I instruct him not to answer
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that.
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A
I don't remember.
I am stating categorically
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BLITZ REPORTING CO.
0036 PHONES= 3<19-3\0B-9
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Eder· 8
2 that I have not appeared in this decade, the seventies,
3 before any one under any other name except Eder.
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I will make one concession here that I used
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the name Philip.
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Q Is that your name?
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A
Yes, that is my name.
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Q
Is it the name that you were born with?
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A
No, it is not the name I was born with.
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Q
Again, what is the name you were horn with?
MP.. KAHN:
Here again, I am going to
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object to that as being irrelevant to the proceeding.
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Q Where and when were you born?
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A
In New York City in 1931.
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Q On what date?
A
I don't think I want to give him that informa-
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tion.
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MR. KAHN: Again, I object to the
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relevancy as to the specific date of his birth. It
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has nothing to do with any of the issues raised in
the compaint or any conceivable defense to the issues
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raised in the complaint.
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Q Mr. Eder, isn't it true you have provided in-
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formation to different government agencies under different
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names?
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BLITZ REPORTING CO.
15 PARK ROW, N.Y. l 0038 PHONES: 349·3\0B-9
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Eder
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HR. KAHN:
I object to the
question.
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HP.. MI CHAE LS :
It is certainly relevant.
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MR. KAHN:
It is too broadly based for --

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Q
Have you ever given information to a government
6 agency under any other names other than Chic Eder?
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MR. KAHN:
It presumes a conclusion.
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MR. HICHAELS:
I am asking whether in
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fact, I am not concluding that.
I am asking whether
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it occurred, whether you have given information to
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government agencies under any other name?
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A
Not in the seventies.
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Q Prior to that?
A Possibly.
I have been arrested on numerous
]
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occasions and in court on numerous occasions.
If that be-
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ing the case, then I have testified in my own cases and I
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have given information to the government and it may have
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been under another name.
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Look, what I am trying to get across to you,
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Nr. Michaels, is simply the most you could hope to go back

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on this is ten years with me because beyond ten years, I
am not going to tell you anything, unless the court orders
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me to tell you that.
So now, we know exactly what we are
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dealing with here.
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MR. MICHAELS:
Off the record.
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BLITZ REPORTING CO.
15- PARK ROW, N.Y. 10038
PHONES: 349·3106-9
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Eder 10
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(Discussion off the record.)
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MP .. MICHAELS: Back on the record.
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Q
During the 1970's, have you ever given in-

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formation to any governmental law enforcement agency or
6 prosecutorial agencies under the name of Philip Eder or
7 chic Eder?
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MR. KAHN: I ask you to clarify that.
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Do you mean during the time of a trial in which he
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was a witness in a trial?
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MR. MICHAELS: No. I mean during the
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course of investigation, indictment proceeding,
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trial or any matter related to any law enforcement
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agency.
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MR. KAHN:
I find the question objection...:
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able because of the breadth and lack of specificity.
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If you specify a specific instance or agency, I will
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not object to his answering.
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Q
Did you ever give information under the name
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of Philip Eder or Chic Eder or any other name to any agency

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or representative of the Drug Enforcement Administration or
predecessor agencies?
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A Yes, I have. Yes, I have but it never had
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anything to do with any individuals; it only had to do with-
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MR. KAHN: Off the record.
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BLITZ REPORTING CO.
lS PARK ROY/, N.Y. 10038 PHONES: 349-3108-9
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Eder
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(Discussion off the record.)
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MR. KAHN:
Back on the record.
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A
It only has to do with technological -- dis-
·•
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cussion of technological operations of their computer
6 system.
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Q
Let me go back a little bit and ask you a
8 little more by way of background.
9 Where were you educated?
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A
Folsom Prison, California.
I graduated as
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valedictorian of my class in 1966, I believe.
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Q
Did you have any education prior to that?
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A Not to speak of.
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Q Where did you grow up?
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A New York.
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Q
Did you have any education subsequent to that?
A Yes.
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Q Could you specify, piease?
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A
Ventura College, Stony Brook University.
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Q
You registered as a student at both institu-

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tions you named?
A No.
I was a student at Stony Brook University
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but was not registered.
I may have been, but I don't think
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so. I wasn't registered formally, but I may show up on
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the records.
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BLITZ REPORTING CO.
15 PARK ROVI, N.Y. 10038 PHONES: 349-3108-9
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Eder 12
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Q Hhat years were those?
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A February, Harch and part of April of 1973 and
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in part of the semester beginning in January of 1975. Both

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Stony Brook University.
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Q When were you first arrested?
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A Probably 1944 or 1945.
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Q How old <-1ere you at the time?
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A Thirteen years of age.
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Q h'hat was the charge?
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A Possession of marijuana.
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Q What happened to the case?
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A I went to reformatory.
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Q For how long?
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A I managed to stretch that out into years; I
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don't know how many. Three, probably.
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Q Which refor·matory?
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A I won't answer that. ·I would rather not answer
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that unless ordered to by a court.
MR. KAHN:
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The name of the reformatory in
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which he was incarcerated is irrelevant to any de-
fense and to the issues in this proceeding.
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HR. MICHAELS: Off the record:
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(Discussion off the record.)
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MR. MICHAELS: Back on the record.
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BLITZ REPORTING CO.
15 PARK ROW, f'J.Y, 10038 PHONES: 349-3\06-9
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Eder G
2 Q Mr. Eder, is it your position in this case
3 your reputation as a criminal has been defamed?
4 A No. As an outlaw.

5 Q What do you mean by that?
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A As someone who lives outside of the law.
7 Q As someone '"ho violates the law?
8 A Possibly as someone who violates the law.
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Q What do you claim your reputation is as an
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outlaw, as you call it?
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A To quote Bob Dylan,,. "To live outside the law,
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you must be honest." To put another person in a prison
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cell in your place is dishonest, and my statement is I
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have at no time put another person, by trading myself, into
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a prison cell.
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Q Your claim here is it is your reputation as
'
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an honest outlaw which has been defamed?
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A That is correct.
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MR. KAHN: Off the record.
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(Discussion off the record.)

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MR. KAHN: Back on the record.
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A It has also hurt my business reputation in the
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legitimate businesses which I am involved in at the present
time.
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Q Is that your statement or have you been advised
BLITZ REPORTING CO.
15 PARK ROW, N.Y. 10038 PHONES: 349·3108-9
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Eel er 14
2 to state that by your attorney?
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MR. KAHN: Off the record.
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(Discussion off the record.}

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MR. KAHN: Back on the record.
6 A It is my statement.
7 Q Let's pursue the question of your history as
s an outlaw. When were you next arrested?
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A
Well, I can't honestly tell you that.
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me think about it for a moment.
I know I was arrested in
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1950.
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Q On what charge?
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A Tire Act.
Stolen car across the state line.
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Q What happened to that case?
A
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Probation.
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Q When were you next arrested?
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A
Again, I don't --
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Q Excuse me.
Let me back up and withdraw that
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question and ask instead, did you plead guilty to a felony
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in the 1950 prosecution you just discussed?

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A That is correct.
Q When were you next arrested?
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A I might have been arrested -- You want to know
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when was the next time I was convicted?
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Q No, I am asking the next time you were arrested.
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Eder
A I don't know.
Q How many times have you been arrested?
A I can't count them. I have a nine or ten-page
rap sheet.
Q Can you estimate for us the approximate number
of arrests you have?
A No, because a lot of those notations on the
rap sheet deal with the felony conviction registration
which was legal at that time and you had to register as
having been convicted of a felony in places such as Las
Vegas and Miami Beach and you have to state you have been
arrested and every time you did this, a notation would
go on your rap sheet, so I can't answer that.
Q About how many times have you been arrested?
A Twenty.
Q About how many times have you been convicted
of any crime?
A Other than as a juvenile, at least six.
Q How many of those were felony convictions?
A All of them .
Q What crimes, to the best of your knowledge,
. i
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were you convicted of, aside from the Tire Act you told
us about?
A Possession of marijuana.
BLITZ REPORTING CO.
15 PARK RO . 49.
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Eder
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Q How many times?
3
A
At least three or four; probably more. I was
4 convicted of possession of marijuana in 19 -- I believe
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1959.
That was in Federal Court in Miami.
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I was convicted of possession of marijuana,
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State Court, in San Francisco, California, in I believe
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1964, and I went to prison.
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I was again arrested for possession of or con-
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victed of possession of marijuana and possession o f   ~ No,
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just possession of marijuana in 1968.
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In '70 or '71 I was convicted of possession of
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marijuana and possession of firearm, leading from the dis-
14
turbances in Isla Vista, California, 'which is in Santa
15
Barbara, California.
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Q
In fact, didn't that last incident you told us
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about involve the burning of the Bank of America?
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A
It had to do with -- It had to do with the
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incidents that took place around the burning of the Bank
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of America.

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Q
Here you one of the individuals convicted?
A
No, I was never convicted for burning the
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Bank of America.
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Q But rather for what?
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A Possession of a firearm.
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BLITZ REPORTING CO.
~ 15 PARK ROW, N.Y. 10038 PHONES: 349-3108-9

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Eder
2 Q
As a felony?
3
A It's a felony. Up to five years in the State
4 of California.
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Q Is that the entire record you have told us
6 about now?
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A No, I have only gotten up to the early 197D's.
Q Please proceed.
A I am presently on appeal on a conviction of
possession of marijuana in the State of Florida.
Q
As a felony?
A As a felony.
Q Is that the complete record? Have you now
told us of all of your arrests and convictions?
A I don't know if I have listed all of the
arrests, since I don't have my rap sheet here. I think it
is sufficient for your purposes.
Q Have you told us about all of your convictions?
A Ny convictions?
Q Yes.
A Let me think about it a minute. I have been
convicted of escape from prison.
Q When?
A December 8, 1974.
Q Where?
BLITZ REPORTING CO.
15 PARK ROW, N.Y. 10038 PHONES: 349-3\06-9
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Eder
2 A Pardon me, mistake. I escaped
3 1972 and left a note telling them what day ,I would be back,
4 and the day was May 8, 1972 and I returned on that date
5
and was subsequently tried for escape and convicted of
6 escape.
7
Q
Have you now told us about all of the convic-
8 tions?
9
A Let me think about it for a minute.
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I will reiterate: The original conviction,
11
which I believe the record was expunged, was possession
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of marijuana, thirte.en or fourteen.
13
Next, Tire Act, which I don't think appears
14
on any record, in 1950. Then I was convicted -- Let me
15
make that completely c l e   r ~ I am not talking of arrests.
16
I am talking about those things I was convicted of -- con-
17
victed of marijuana in a federal court in Miami in 1959.
18
Next, possession of marijuana and possession
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of stolen property, another charge, in 1964 in San Francisco
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California.
Next, 1968, I was arrested in Ventura,
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California and convicted of another marijuana possession.
22
There were other arrests involved around that
23
period; none of which resulted in conviction.
24
The next one was in '71 -- '70 or '71. To be
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BLITZ REPORTING CO.
15. PARK ROW, N.Y. 10038 PHONES: 3"9-3106-9
1 Erler
2 cl e a r o n that, for poss es s ion of marijuana
3
of a fire bomb .
That is what I was convicted of in
4 Isla Vista, California.
5 The next conviction was Miami , Florida, about
6 a year and a half ago , on a plea of guilty to possession
7 of marijuana.
8 And I have not been convicted of anything since
9 that case is on appeal.
10
Q ivha t prison did you escape from?
11
A California State.
12
Q
Tell us, pl ease , approximate ly how much
13
marijuana was involved as to the conviction --
14
A Seven joints.
Seven marijuana cigare ttes.
15
Q Which case are you referring to?
A When I was a kid.
17
Q Next?
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A In California -- The next one was Mi a mi.
I
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think I would be safe in saying it was less than a quarter
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of an o unce . I think it wa s some thing like eight or ten
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grams or something like that.
Q Go on.
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A The next conviction wa s for a very -- again a
very small amount of marijuana ; certainly not any grand
24
scale.
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I don't remember how much . It wasn't e nough to
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Eder
really talk about it.
Q
Under an ounce?
A
I believe so, but I'm not sure on that one.
Q
Under a pound?
A
Here we are dealing I believe so. Here we
7 are dealing with a case in 1964 in San Francisco.
8
In the 1968 case, I think there was a pound
9 involved in that, in the 1968 case.
10
In the case in Santa Barbara, which took place
11
in '70 or '71, we are talking about a joint or maybe two
12
joints. That was all that was involved in that one.
13
I believe the one in Miami was 5,300 pounds.
Q Any others?
15
A Any other convictions? None.
16
Q \Vhat l.'laS the stolen property?
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A Some wigs.
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Q You have told us you have done various time
19
in jail. Would you tell us, please, taking each conviction
20
that resulted in a jail sentence, tell me what the sentence
was?
21
A As a kid, I went to the reformatory. The
22
second conviction was probation. The third conviction,
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which took place in 1959, resulted in my going to, first,
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to the United States Public Health Service Hospital in
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BLITZ REPORTING CO.
15 PARK ROW, N.Y. 10038 HONFS: 349-31 8-9
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...... ----
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2 Lexington, Kentucky a nd then to the United
States Peni t e n-
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tiary in Atlanta, Georgia.
4
Q Would you go on, please?
e
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A 1964, the conviction in San Francisco,
6 California resulted in, 1964 to 1 968 , I was in Folsom
7
Prison, Califor nia's maximum custody p rison.
8
The 1968 conviction -- that may have been '68,
9
'69. It might have been '69.
In fact, I bel i eve that was
10
a 1969 conviction, a nd I went to the California Rehabilita-
11
tion Center in Corona , Cali f ornia.
12
In the 1970, 1971 conviction, I was sent to
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Chino, California, San Quentin, Soledad, Folsom, CMC,
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Tehachapi, San Quentin, Folsom, CMC, San Quentin, Folsom,
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CMC. Tha t was my i t inerary.
16
Q Is that i t?
17
A Yes , that 's it.
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Q You h ave spent no othe r time in jail other
19
t h a n what you told us?
20
A I have been in a lot of j ai ls. We are talking
21
about my convictions.
Q Tell me about other jails you have been in.
22
A I can't count them.
23
Q Appr oximately how many?
24
25
A Fifty. I have been in fifty j a ils.
BLITZ REPORTING CO.
15 PARK ROW . N.Y. 1 0038 PHONES: 349- 3 \08· 9


1
Eder
2 Q
Have you been a heroin addict?
3
A
Most definitely, for eleven years.
4
Q
Have you spent more than half your life in jail?
5 A
I have spent approximately 18 years in jail and -
6 I am 48.
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Q
Have you ever told anybody you spent half your
life in jails?
A It's very possible.
MR. KAHN: Objection as to form. You
have to be more specific as to when and who.
Q Did you ever tell Mr. Albert Goldman you have
spent half your life in jail?
A It's possible, since when I first met Albert
Goldman I would have spent half my life in jail.
Q Going to the -- It was 5,300 pounds
A I haven't been in prison for that.
Q Do you know why?
A The case is on appeal.
Q Is there a sentence that has been passed?
A Three years.
Q What court does that derive from?
A Miami.
Q Your alleged reputation as an honest outlaw
was gained therefore in what kind of enterprises, what kind
BLITZ REPORTING CO.
15. PARK ROW, N.Y. 10038 PHONES: 349-3108-9
1
]
1 Eder
2 of activities?
3
A My ·1i fe style.
4 Q Does your life style involve violating any

5 particular law?
6 A Certainly.
7
Q Which?
8 MR. KAHN: I object to that question.
9
MR. MICHAELS: The man claims his reputa-
10
tion is defamed. I asked about what his background
11
is with regard to that reputation.
12
MR. KAHN: You are asking him to identify
13
a specific legal statute.
14
THE WITNESS: Yes, I can identify the
15
statute as the marijuana laws. I have broken all
16
the marijuana laws.
17
Q You have broken the marijuana sale law repeated-
18
ly, have you not?
19
A I most certainly have. I used to sell it to
20
your client.
21
Q You say you sell it. You are speaking in the
22
present tense?
A No, you didn't ask me that. You asked me if
23
I sold marijuana. I sold marijuana.
24
Q De you presently?
25
BLITZ REPORTING CO.
15 PARK ROW, N.Y. 10038 PHONES: 349-3108-9
1
Eder
@
2
A No, I don't have any.
3
Q When did you most recently do so?
4
A Sell marijuana?

5
Q
Yes.
6
A I think that's irrelevant.
7
MR. KAHN: I object to that.
8
A
If you want to ask me when I last sold marijuana
9
to your client, I would be happy to answer that.
10
Q Thank you for your solicitous concern.
11
Are you telling us that your reputation as an
12
honest outlaw was derived from the marijuana business?
13
A Part of it was.
14
Q \·/hat was the other part?
A
15
The outlaw life style.
Q
What does that outlaw life style involve? What
16
17
do you mean?
A
How you live your life as an outlaw:
Do you
18
do business in a correct manner, are you honest in your
19
20
present dealings with other outlaws and other people.
T2
Q With regard to the cases that you have told us

21
about that involved either your arrest or your conviction
22
A
Excuse me, I want to clarify that.
I am not
23
stating on this record that what I told you about my ar-
24
rests is the sum total of my arrests.
Let's make that very
25
BLITZ REPORTING CO.
15 PARK ROW, N.Y. 10038 PHONES: 349.3\08-9
1
Eder
25
2 clear.
I don't want anybody to come back and tell me I
3
lied to you.
I am just dealing with my convictions.
I
4 can remember the convictions; I can't possibly remember

5 the number of arrests.
I have been arrested ten times
6 in one week.
7
Q
Could the number of arrests be possibly over
s a hundred?
9
A The number of arrests are all on the rap sheet
10
and sometime.between now and the time we go to court, that
11
rap sheet will appear.
12
Q In the course of any of the arrests or the
13
prosecutions resulting from those arrests, whether or not
14
they led to convictions, did you ever give information to
15
any government investigative or prosecutorial agency?
16
MR. KAHN: I object to that question again
17
on the grounds of the breadth and I ask you to be
18
more specific about what you were talking and ·when.
19
MR. MICHAELS: Off the record.
20
(Discussion off the record.)
MR. MICHAELS: Back on the record.

21
Q Mr. Eder, have you ever given information, in
22
the course of any criminal investigation or prosecution,
23
to the United States Customs Service?
24
A At no time.
25
BLITZ REPORTING CO.
15 PARK ROW, N.Y. 10038 PHONES: 349-3108·9
1
Eder 26
2 Q To the United States Coast Guard?
3
A At no time.
4
Q To the United States Drug Enforcement Adminis-
5
tration or its predecessors?
6 A Only to the United States Drug Enforcement
7 Administration and I stated prior to that what that in-
8
formation was.
That information was dealing with a leak
9
they had in.their computer. There was a method of gaining
10
access to information coming out of their computers and I
11
plugged that leak for them.
12
Wait a minute, I want to finish stating that
13
I have an understanding with government agencies I wi°ll at
14
no time be asked questions that may lead to an arrest or
15
conviction.
16
Q Have you ever given information to the FBI?
17
A Oh, yes, definitely.
18
Q How many times?
19
A Once.
20
Q Under what circumstances?
A I made a deal with the United States Government

21
Federal Bureau of Investigation to ascertain whether or not
22
their telephones were in fact capable of being tapped. I
23
then tapped their telephones and sold them that information
24
in order to get myself and other people out of problems with
25
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15 PARK ROV.'. N.Y. \0038 PHONES: 349-3108-9


1
Eder 27
2
the United States Government.
3
Q
Did you ever give the information to any United
4 States attorney, assistant United States attorney or as-
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
sistant district attorney?
MR. KAHN: I object to the formation of
the question. Specify some definable time period or
locality that he can refer to.
Q Did you ever give information to any assistant
district attorney in the State of New York or in the State
of Florida?
A About what?
Q About any criminal investigation or court pro-
14
ceedings.
15
A Criminal or court proceedings?
16
MR. KAHN: Again, I object as to the form.
17
Are you referring to an investigation or court pro-
18
ceeding with respect to Mr. Eder or an investigation
19
or court proceeding with respect to any other person?
20
Q
I will ask both. With respect to yourself,
21
with respect to an investigation or court proceeding con-
cerning yourself as a defendant or prospective defendant,
22
did you ever give information to an assistant U.S. attorney
23
or an assistant district attorney in New York, Florida or
24
California?
25
BLITZ REPORTING CO.
15 PARK ROVJ, N.Y. 10038 PHONES: 349°3108-9
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2
3
4
5
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7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
e
21
22
23
24
25
Eder
A Yes.
Q How many times?
(;;;)
l1?
A Well , I had a case up here and I had cases
down in Florida and I had cases in California . Since I
was appearing propria persona, in many cases I represented
myself and I had reason to come in contact with assistant
district attorneys.
Q With regard to any criminal investigation or
prosecution of any other pe rsons, have you ever given any
information to any investigative agency or prosecutorial
agency in any of those thre e states?
A Let me be very clear about this: With regard
to any informa tion or any testimony that might lead to an
arrest or conviction of any human being, I have not given
a ny informat ion to any agency or a.nyone, period . That will
solve t hat .
Now, I may have g i ven information but I was
always very careful to make it clear that the inf orma tion
that I was giving, I woul dn ' t be asked any questions. I
refused to d e al with any questions that would lead to any-
one's conviction or arrest.
Q You may have given informat ion, with r e gard to
other people, to law e nforcement agencies or prosecutors?
A No . No, b ecause --
BLITZ REPORTING CO.
1 5 PARK ROW. N.Y. 10038 P HON ES: 349-3108- 9
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1
Eder 29
2
Q
Did you not just say , "I may have g i ven in-
3 formation "?
4
A
I have given information. I told you that .
I
s have g iven information with regard to the tappi ng of
6 government t e l ephones . The entire governme nt network, I
7 found a way to get into it and I sold them that informa tion
8 and then I found a way to get into their computers, the
9 National Crime Informa tion Center c omputers, and the
10
El Paso Information Center computer. That's it.
11
Q
Those are the only time s you have ever given
12
information?
13
A
That is absolutely correct. Tha t is the only
14
time I have ever given that information.
I hav e made it
15
clear to whomsoever I was dealing with that I would at no
16
time give them any informa tion that might l ead to an ar-
17
r e st or conviction.
18
Q
Yet you therefore are conceding t o us that in
19
c e rta in limited ways you s pecified that you we re an e mployee
20
of certain government --
A
At no time h ave I ever been a n employee of any
21
22
government agency .
Q Have you been paid by - -
23
A At no time have I ever been paid by a ny govern-
24
ment agency for a ny information, categorically.
25
BLITZ REPORTING CO.
1 5 PARK R OW, N .Y. 1 0036 PHO NES' 349-3 1 OB- 9


1
Eder
30
2 Q
Here you paid for the assistance you gave them
3 with regard to the computer or telephone?
4
A
I was not paid even expense money.
I never re-
5 ceived -- They attempted at one time to reimburse me for
6 air fare across the country and I ref used to accept the
7 money they offered to me. At no time has the government
8 ever given me any money except when I came out of prison.
9
Q Did the government provide you with any con-
10
· sideration with regard to any of your cases?
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
A Well, of course. That was the deal.
Q
What was the deal?
A
The deal was I gave them certain information in
order to beat certain cases.
The United States Government got me out of
prison in December 16, 1974. I was released from the
California Prison. This was done with the help of the
United States Government. They were.trying to get me out
for a year to work on the possibility of their telephones
being tapped.
Q Did you ever give information concerning a man
named John Draper, known as "Captain Crown"?
A Absolutely not.
Q Have you ever given information to any govern-
ment agency with regard to Hr. Lenny Bruce?
BLITZ REPORTING CO.
15 PARK ROVI, N.Y. 10038
1 Eder
31
2
A Most definitely not.
3
Q
Did you ever give information to any government
4 agency with regard to Mr. Thomas King Forcade?

5
A
At no time. At one time the government agency,
6 at one time attempted to coerce me into giving information
7 with regard to Thomas King Forcade. At the time this took
8
place, I adamantly refused to give them any information
9
whatsoever at the risk of having my deal with the Drug
10
Enforcement Administration go·. down the tubes because this
11
man had to sign something that would allow the deal to go
12
through, and he tried to use that as a lever in order to
13
get him to give me information about Thomas King Forcade
14
and I refused to at that time.
15
Q
Was the information you gave to the government
16
with regard to telephone and computer matters, in your be-
17
lief, of value to the government?
18
A Yes. There are two things that the government
19
is concerned with over and above arrests and convictions,
20
and one is the safety of their personnel and the other is
•·
21
the security of their information.
Q Did you derive the information you gave to them,
22
in part, from information you gathered from one John Draper?
23
A I will not answer that question since it may
24
lead Mr. Draper to have problems with the government and he
25
BLITZ REPORTING CO.
15. PARK ROW, N.Y. 10038 PHONES: 349·310B·9
1 Eder
32
2 certainly cannot afford them at this time.
3 I would like to add to my answer the fact at
4 no time did I give the government any information with

5
regard to John Draper.
6
Q However, you would contend that the information
7 you gave was of high value to the government?
8 A Well, let's put it this way; They traded for
9 it, so they must have thought it was of high value.
10
Q
Do you feel that it 1va.s high level information
11 you were giving?
12
A No, sir. Definitely I tapped the FBI telephones
13 at the height of the Patty Hearst investigation and they
14 freaked.
15
Q So with regard to those limited matters, did
16
you provide. the government with high level information?
17
A I object to that simply because you are just
18
trying to fill out that "high level." Alan J. Weberman's
19
line in The Village Voice was that I was a "high level DEA
20
informant." That's not my place to ascertain whether or
21
not this information was of value to them. You have to
22
ask the DEA agents I am going to put on the stand whether
or not it was of interest to them.
23
24
Q When was it that you were released from prison
25
with the assistance of the United States Government?
BLITZ REPORTING CO.
lS PARK RO\V, N.Y. 10038 PHONES: 349-310B-9
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Eder 33
2 A December 16, 1974.
3
Q
For how long before that had you been in prison?
4
A
I went to prison -- Again, it was the conviction
••
5
that took place in Isla Vista,Santa Barbara, California,
6 and I believe that was 1970 or '71 that I went into prison,
7 and I escaped from prison in December of 1972 and returned
s voluntarily to prison May 8, 1973. I had been in prison
9 for that length of time on that charge.
10
Q
During the spring of 1974, did you ever visit
11
Mr. Thomas King Forcade?
12
A
Spring of 1974 was spent incarcerated in the
13 California prison.
14
Q
I think I am confused about dates. Have you
15
told us that you were released from prison in California
16
in December of '74?
17
A
That's correct. In the spring of '74, I was
18
in the prison.
19
Q
During the spring of 1975 then you were re-
20
cently released from prison with the assistance of the

21
government; is .that correct?
A That's correct.
22
Q
During that period of time, did you ever visit
23
Mr. Thomas King Forcade?
24
A
During what period of time?
25
BLITZ REPORTING CO.
15- PARK ROW, N.Y. 10038 PHONES: 349-3108-9
1
Eder
2
Q Spring of 1975.
3
A Yes, I was intimately involved with Thomas King
4 Forcade in numerous business ventures .

5
Q Were any of the business ventures criminal?
6
A I object to the word "criminal."
7
Q Were any of those prohibited by law at that
8
time?
9
A Yes, they were outlawed definitely.
10
Q
Did you ever visit Mr. Forcade at the Fifth
11
Avenue Hotel at Ninth Street?
12
A Yes. On a daily basis for many months during
13
the time we had that suite.
14
Q
11
V'Je
11
? You said "we
11
had that suite. Were you
15
a partner?
16
A During the time we had that suite -- I will
17
change that.
18
Q What business was carried on at that location?
A
19
What business was carried on at that location?
20
Numerous businesses, I suppose.
Q What businesses, if any, that you know about?

21
A Work on HIGH TIMES MAGAZINE, distribution of
22
marijuana.
23
Q In what kind of quantities?
24
A Hundred pounds, 200 pounds, 500 pounds.
25
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15. PARK ROW, N.Y, 10038 PHONES: 349-3108-9
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4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
Eder
Q
Were you one o'f the partners in that venture?
A
I certainly was.
Q
And during that time, were you cooperating with
the government?
A Wait just a moment.
MR. KAHN: I object to the form of the
word "cooperating" with the government because I don't
know what it means and I am not sure
A Yes, that's what stopped me.
Q During that time, were you providing information
12 to any government agency?
13
A Yes, I was working at that time on the computers
14
Q What agency was it that you were dealing with
15
at that time?
16
A The Drug Enforcement Agency.
17
Q Did there come a time when the marijuana sales
18
business at the Fifth Avenue Hotel ended?
19
A They sure did.
20
Q Do you know the circumstances under which it
ended?
21
A
22
I wasn't there at the time, but from my in-
23
formation, something happened to the sprinkler system and
24
it went off, thereby flooding the suite and causing the
25
fire department to break into that suite and I believe they
BLITZ REPORTING CO.
15 PARK ROW, N.Y. 10038 PHONES: 349-3108-9


I Eder 36
2 found a quantity of marijuana there. Following that, when
3 the district attorney here in New York attempted to coerce
4 me into testifying with regard to that marijuana belonging
5
6
7
8
to Thomas King Forcade.
Q
Is that Mr. Newgarten?
A That's correct.
Q You say he attempted to coerce you. What did
9
he say?
10
A That's correct. He said he knew I had a deal
11
with the Drug Enforcement Agency to kill the case for me
12
in New York City here based on information that I had
13
supplied to them with regard to the computers, and he
14
attempted to -- I don't know the right word -- quash the
15
deal. He refused to allow the deal to go through unless
16
I agreed to testify or give information against Thomas
17
Kini; Forcade, at which time I told him to "get fucked."
18
Q
Close quote?
19
A Close quote.
20
Q
Thank you.
A And told him my deal with the Drug Enforcement
21
Agency -- and I lived up to my deal with the Drug Enforce-
22
ment Agency -- my deal, at the beginning, with the Drug
23
Enforcement Agency, was at no time was I to be asked for
24
any information that might lead to an arrest or conviction,
25
BLITZ REPORTING CO.
15 PARK RO\V, N.Y. 10036 PHONES: 349-3\0B-9


1 Eder
37
2 so I didn't have to supply him with that information and
3 if he refused to go along with the DEA, then that was the
4 problem between him and the DEA and to leave me out of it .
5
6
7
Q
Mr. Eder, when you did give information to
governmental agencies, you told us you had an understanding
that information would not lead to an arrest and you would
8 not be asked questions that might lead to an arrest; is
9 that correct?
10
A No. ·11y original deal with the United States
11
Government was simply the deal was made while I was in
12
prison and I told the man he had read me completely wrong
13
if he thought I would trade my prison cell for another
14 man, put another man in my place. We made an agreement
15
at the time, not only was I not expected to give up any
16
information and would not be asked any questions that may
17
lead to an arrest or conviction.
18
Q
Did you ever have any agreement you would never
19
mention anybody's name?
20
A No, I don't think so.
21
Q Your agreement was while you might mention
22
somebody's name, no arrest would result; is that correct?
23
A No. Let's get it straight. You are getting
24
cute again. You get cute a lot. Don't do it.
25
Our agreement was I might be asked questions
BLITZ REPORTING CO.
1.:5. PARK ROW, N.Y. 1 ~ 3   PHONES: 349-3106-.9
1 Eder 38
2 that would lead to an arrest or conviction. At the time
3 I made my deal with the government, I fully understood the
4 fact there are things that are more important to an in-

5
vestigative agency of the United States Government than
6 arrests or convictions, and those two things are the safety
7
of their personnel and the security of their information
8
and communications; therefore, my deal with the government
9
as to a system in areas dealing with the safety of their
10
personnel or their securities of their information or com-
11
munications.
12
Q But in the course of the information you did
13 get, you may have named names?
14
MR. KAHN: I object to the form of that
15
question.
16
A Yes.
17
Q
Did you ever name the name of anybody who
18
committed a crime, in the course of giving information?
19
A No. Now we can deal with the question. No.
20
Okay.
Q I want to thank you for your compliment on my
••
21
looks.
22
You have told us you know you sometimes repre-
23
sented yourself in dealing with the prosecutors; is that
24
correct?
25
BLITZ REPORTING CO.
15 PARK ROV/, N.Y. 10038 PHONES: 349-3108-9


1 Eder
39
2 A
Yes, I was propria persona in a case in Los
3 Angeles County, which I beat, and in Ventura County and
· 4 in Santa Barbara County and San Luis Obispo County I
. s
6
7
represented myself in those cases and those jurisdictions .
Q
Any of those cases lead to guilty pleas?
A
The Los Angeles case was acquittal and the
s case in Ventura, California led to a guilty plea, and the
9 case in Santa Barbara, California led to being found guilty
by a jury, and the case in San Luis. Obispo County led to
10
11
a plea of guilty on an escape charge.
12
Q
There have been times where you have had
13
attorneys representing you?
14
A Oh, definitely. Those are the only times I
15
was not represented.
16
Q The case involving the 5300 pounds in Florida,
17
did you have an attorney in that matter?
18
A I did.
19
Q
Who was that?
20
A During the case?
Q Yes .
21
A During the trial itself?
22
Q Yes.
23
A Michael Kennedy.
24
Q Did he resign as your attorney?
25
BLITZ REPORTING CO.
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Eder
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He did.
3
Q Did he give a reason for it at the time that
4 you know of?
5 A He did .
6
Q What was that?
7
A He said he didn't want -- he wouldn't defend
8 people that worked with the gover nment .
9 Q
In fact , did he call you an informant?
10
A He did .
11
Q
Did he express shock you had not told him?
12
A Yes.
13
Q Had you told him?
14
A No .
15
Q
So you did not inform your attorney that you
16
had a relationship with governmental agencies?
17
A That is correct.
18
Q
At that time did you ask Mr . Kennedy to delay
19
before informing anybody of the new fact he had learned?
20
A That is correct , and which he did .
21
Q
And therefore, he later revealed it, with your
consent?
22
A
He did not at my consent .
23
Q Did an allegation that you were shown t o have
24
25
been a government informant and an informant for the DEA
BLITZ REPORTING C O .
1 5 P A RK R OW, N.Y. 10038 PHONES: 349-3106-9
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Eder
2 ever appear in prin.t that you know of?
3
A Yes, it did.
4
Q Where and when?
5 A
HIGH TIMES MAGAZINE.
'rhe when would be, I
6 think, the Christmas issue two years ago.
7
Q And?
8
A
About a year and a half -- Not this last
9 Christmas but the Christmas issue prior to that.
10
Q Was that statement true or false?
11
A
Let me see it again so I can say what is true
12
and what is false.
13
The statement is false and I will deal with
14
where it is false in just a moment.
15
As far as this is concerned, it states here,
16
and I will· read the heading, "Dope Hero Turns Narc."
The
17
term "Narc" means either someone who is working for the
18
Narcotics Agency for the United States or an informant in
19
narcotics cases for the United States Government.
That is
20
untrue.
It also says here, on the seventh line of this

21
article, it says, "was revealed in court as a government
informant."
That is untrue. Never came out in a court of
22
law.
23
MR. KAHN:
Are you introducing this· into
24
the record?
25
BLITZ REPORTING CO.
15 PARK ROVl, N.Y, 10038 PHONES: 349-3108-9
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2
Eder
(2·
MR. MICHAELS: Would like it? you to mark
3
MR. KAHN: Yes.
4
MR. MICHAELS: Fine.
• 5
Q The false allegation that appeared in print in
6 HIGH TIMES MAGAZINE that you had been revealed in court to
7 be a narc, did that cause you a loss of income?
8
A Yes.
9
Q What income?
10
A
Income derived from the marijuana business.
11
Q
Did it cost you any loss of income in your
12
yachting business?
13
A No.
14
Q Did it cost you any loss of income in any other
15
businesses?
A I don't think so.
16
17
Q
Did it cost you any loss of reputation as an
18
honest outlaw or otherwise?
19
A Most definitely.
20
Q
In fact, isn't it the kind of allegation you

21
are complaining about in this case?
A Most definitely, but not quite as strongly
22
because there was no specificity as to what it was I was
23
supposed to have done within the HIGH TIMES article.
24
Q In fact, is it your opinion that the HIGH TIMES
25
BLITZ REPORTING CO.
15. PARK ROW. N.Y. i003B PHONES: 349·3\0B-9
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43
2 article caused much more damage to your income as an out-
3 law?
4 A Possibly.

5 Q
Have you, 'to' this date, taken any legal action
6 against HIGH TIMES MAGAZINE or Transhigh Corporation?
7 A No, I have not, but that was simply because at
8 the time I was not in a position to do so and I am glad you
9 brought that to my attention, because we intend to do it at
10 ·this point.
11
Q Did you ever complain in writing that the in-
12 formation published therein was false?
13
A No, not in writing.
14
Q Did you ever complain orally that it was false
15 to HIGH TIMES MAGAZINE?
16
A No, Thomas King Forcade.
17
Q What did you say?
18
A Told him it was bullshit and
19
Q What did he say?
20
A Be that as it may, Thomas King Forcade and I

21
were in business with the marijuana and he cheated me out
22
of a large sum of money and that is what was the basic
23
argument originally.
24
Q How much marijuana did you and Thomas bring
25
into the country during the course of that business?
BLITZ REPORTING CO.
1S PARK RO\'.', N.Y. \0038 PHONES: 349-3108.-9
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( 44 )
U/
2 A Many thousands of pounds.
3
Q
How many different importations were involved ,
4 approximately?
5
A
Three .
6 Q By airplane, ship or how?
7
A By boat .
8 Q So in fact there came a time when you felt that
9
Thomas King Forcade cheated you out of a l arge sum of money?
10
A He did .
11
Q When was that?
12
A
When did I l e arn he cheated me out of the
13
money?
14
Q Yes .
15
A April , 1 97 7 .
16
Q
And so after Apri l 1977 , what was your opinion
17
of Mr . Forcade's honesty?
18
A
I stopped doing business with Mr. Forcade a t
19
t hat point and took my money back a way from him.
20
Q What was your opinion of Mr. Forcade?
21
A That he was a c h ~ a t   that he was not an hone st
outla\·1 .
22
23
Q Did you ever tell a nybody that?
A Tom Forcade .
24
25
Q Anyone else?
BLITZ REPORTING CO.
15 PARK ROW. N .Y. 10036 PHO N ES' 3 4 9-3 106- 9


1
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45
2
A No, I didn't feel it was necessary. A lot
3 of people knew about it. Yes, I did tell a lot of people
4 in the business so they could protect themselves from Mr .
5
6
Thomas King Forcade.
Q Did you ever complain in writing to Mr. Michael
7 Kennedy about his having said you were a narc or drug
s agency informant?
9
A No.
10
Q Did you ever complain orally to him about that
11
statement?
12
A Yes.
13
Q What did you say?
14
A You know, I said that since that wasn't true,
15
that I felt he was wrong in saying that.
16
Q What did he say?
17
A He said, well, you know, he said we are all
18
entitled to our opinion. In fact, I think it was his words.
19
Q Did you ever take any legal action against him?
20
A No, I haven't yet.
Make a note . I am suing him too. Let's simplif
21
that.
22
Q Do you have any claim to any secret, confidentia
23
conversations with Mr. Kennedy about your status as an
24
alleged informant on narcotic cases?
25
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15 PARK ROW, N.Y. 10038 PHONES: 349-3108-9
]
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T3 2 A I am not sure I understand what you are talking
. 3 about.
4
Q You have told us something about conversations

5
\vi th Mr. Kennedy, your former attorney, concerning the
6 allegation which he made which was reported in HIGH TIMES
7 that in fact you were a narc informant.
8
A Did I?
9
Q I am saying, are you claiming there was any
10
other conversation with him with regard to your status as
11
an informant which was secret or confidential?
12
A Yes, all of it was secret and confidential. He
13 was my attorney.
14
Q Were any of those secret and confidential con-
15
versations concerning whether.or not you were in fact a
16
narc informant?
17
Most definitely.
18
Q You have told us that you wished to consider.
19
bringing legal action against Mr. Kennedy. I take it you
20
would not object to his testifying about your conversations

21
concerning your alleged status as a narc informant?
A l'lould I object to that? I already object to
22
that. I object to his having violated the attorney-client
23
relationship and it has just dawned on me, sitting here in
24
your office, I should take legal action against him.
25
BLITZ REPORTING CO.
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2 Q
You are saying he violated a confidence that
3 in his opinion you were a narc informant?
4
A That is correct.
5
Q You are contending there were conversations you
6 . had with him in which that was discussed in which you ex-
7 pected and hoped would be kept secret?
8
A Yes.
9
Q
During those conversations, did you and he dis-
10
cuss your activities , however limited, in assisting the
11
government?
12
A Correct.
13
Q
Have you ever given information to any govern-
14
ment agency concerning a narcotics investigation or prosecu-
15
tion?
16
MR. KAHN: I am going to object to that . .
17
The question was asked and ~ n s w e r e   earlier.
18
19
Q Were there other places , aside from the Fifth
Avenue Hotel , where you and Mr. Forcade conducted an outl aw
]
20
business , as you cal l it?
A I don't have to
21
MR. KAHN: I object to the question and
22
direct him not to answer .
23
A Hold it. I will answer the question but I won 't
24
get into any specificity.
25
BLITZ REPORTING CO.
15 PARK ROW. N.Y. 10038 PHONES: 349-3108-9

1
2
3
4
5
6
Q
A
Q
A
Eder
Yes, We are involved.
Were there, in fact, several other places?
Yes.
Where do you live?
In my suitcase. I do not have a permanent
7 domicile.
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Q
Do you own real estate in Manhattan?
A No. I don't own real estate anywhere.
Q Are you a partner, member of a firm or share-
holder in any business which owns real estate in Manhattan?
A No.
Q Do you own any boats?
A No.
Q
What is your business. at this time?
A I'm a corporation in New York.
Q Which does what?
A Sells ears.
Q E-a-r-s?
A Sells ears.
Q Is that the sole business of that company?
A At that point, yes.
Q What is the name of the company?
A Picaresque of New York.
Q What business did that corporation normally
BLITZ REPORTING CO.
15 PARK RO\V, N.Y. 10036 PHONES: 349-3108-9
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49
2 conduct?
3
A
Conducting no business besides that.
]
4
Q
Have you made arrangements for any improvements

5 on any real estate in Manhattan within the last two years?
6 A
I don't know what that means, so I can't answer.
7 Would you be a little more specific, you know, instead of
s being a lawyer?
9
Q Have you arranged for services of architects,
10
carpenters, electricians, renovators, restorers; rebuilders
11
or any other persons whose business is involved in the im-
12
provement of realty?
13
A
I worked on it for a while but nothing came to
14
fruition.
15
Q
A building at what address?
16
A I don't know the address. It was in the
17
twenties but I didn't buy the building, so that's
it
18
was a plan to buy a building through a corporation I was
19
involved with and the plan never came to fruition.
That's
20
all.

21
Q Are you telling us then that at one time you
made a contract to purchase a building but did not close
22
the deal?
23
HR. KAHN: I object to that.
24
25
A No, I didn't make any contract to purchase any
BLITZ REPORTING CO.
15 PARK ROW, N.Y. 10038 PHONES: 349·3 l OB· 9
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2
building.
3
Q
What was the price of the building which you
4 didn't buy?

5
A How does that relate?
6 MR. KAHN: I object to this entire line
7
of questioning for the reasons it is totally im-
8
material to any defense that may be legitimately
9
raised ·in the action and there is no indication what
10
Mr. Michaels is talking about and I think it is un-
11
fair to ask the witness to respond. I am not sure.
12
what you are talking about and I am not sure my
13
witness does either.
14
Q Do you have any business other than the·
15
Picaresque business you have told us about?
16
A What other businesses do I have or what other
17
businesses do I project?
18
Q What other businesses are you conducting now?
19
A In the United States, none.
20
Q Outside the United States?
A Various other business ventures .

21
Q Such as?
22
MR. KAHN: I am going to object.
23
HR. MICHAELS: I am going to object to
24
your objection. The claim is that there is a dero-
25
BLITZ REPORTING CO.
15 PARK ROW, N.Y. 10038 PHONES: 349-3108·9
1
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a nd I am  
2
gation of his business and income
3 what business he is in.
4 A
Let me think about that. I am in t he opal
5 business in
6
Q
You mean the cars or qem stone?
7 A Gem stone .
8
Q Anything else?
9 A That's it.
10
Q You are not in any yachting or boat-oriented
11
business?
12
A
Yes , I am, but I'm not making any money at it.
13
Q What does that business involve?
14
A
Involves owning a piece of a corporation that
15
owns and charters boats.
16
Q How many boats does that company own?
17
A At this point, one .
18
Q Where is that business locat0d?
19
A I prefer not to answer that.
20
Q
Is y our attorney objecting to it?
21
A I don't n eed my attorney to tell me not to
22
a nswer the question.
23
Q Wher e is your boating business loc ate d?
A Off the record .
24
25
(Di s cussion o f f the record .)
BLITZ REPORTING CO.
1 PARK ROW, N.Y. 10038 PHONES: 349-3108- 9
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2
MR. MICHAELS: Back on the record.
3 A In the Caribbean and further than that, I would
4 rather not state, and the reason I would rather not state

5 it is simply because I already have J:ieen injured by this
6 party and I don't want that information available to this
7 party.
8 Q Under what jurisdiction? What island or
9 locality?
10
A That is exactly what I'm telling you I am not
11 going to tell you.
12
MR. MICHAELS: Off the record.
13
(Discussion off the record.)
14
MR. MICHAELS: Back on the record.
15
Q You are not making any money from that this
16
year, the boating business?
17
A No.
18
Q Did you make any money from it last year?
19
A Yes.
20
Q About how much?
A A few hundred dollars.

21
22
Q Did you make any money from it the year before
that?
23
24
A I wasn't in it the year before that.
25
Q How about the opal business; are you making any
BLITZ REPORTING CO .
. 15 PARK ROW, N.Y. 10036 PHONES: 349-3108·9
1
Fr3er
2
money this year?
3
A A few dollars.
4
Q Make any money in it last year?
-
5
A I wasn't in it last year.
6 Pardon me , that's wrong . I was in it last
7
year and no , I did not make any money in it l as t year.
8
Q What are you making money in this year?
9
A Nothing . It is a pretty bad year so far.
10
Q What did you make money in last year?
11
A I said I made a few dollars in the boat
12
business l as t year. Maybe two, three hundred dollars.
13
Q What else?
14
A That's it.
15
Q How did you support yourself l as t year?
16
A I didn't.
17
Q How did you buy food?
18
A I didn't.
19
Q You did without food all year ?
20
A No. I didn't buy any food .
Q You are telling us that your only income fo r
21
the year or the only income was f rom those businesses?
22
A From thos e businesses.
23
Q l".111a t was your total income for the year 1976?
24
A Maybe three, five, four hundred do llars.
25
BLITZ REPORTING CO.
15 PARK ROW. N . Y. 10038 PHO NES: 349-3108-9
1
Erl.er
2 Q
How about 1977?
3
A Probably about the same .
4
Q How about 1978?
5 A I don't know. I can 't deal with that because
6 I don't know how much I made because I don't keep any re-
7 cords, but that's what I figure I made.
8
Q You do keep copies of the tax returns you file,
9 do you not?
10
A No, I don't have any tax returns. I don't file
11
income tax.
12
Q You don't file any income tax anywhere?
13
A That's correct .
14
Q
How much did you make from the marijuana
15
business , let's say, in 1975?
16
A I have no idea.
17
Q
1976?
18
A I don't know.
19
Q
1977?
20
A Don 't know.
Q 1978?
21
A Don ' t know .
22
Q 1979?
23
A Don 't k n d ~  
24
Q You have been in the marijuana busi ness in 1979?
25
BLITZ REPORT I NG CO.
15. PARK ROW, N.Y. 10038 PHONES' 349-3108-9
1 E<ler
55
2 A No.
3
Q I ' m sorry . I thought you said you didn ' t know
4 how much you made in the marijuana business in 1979. Are
5 you saying you don ' t know because you were in the business
6 or you don't know --
7
8
A I'm saying I don ' t know because I have n't been
doing anything in 1979 in the marijuana business . I haven't
9 been in the marijuana business in 1979 , but I was in t he
10
marijuana business prior to 1979.
11
Q Up through 1978 , perhaps?
12
A Sure .
13
Q You t old us about a dispute with Mr . Forcade
14
t hat led you to feel he cheated you out of a substantial
15
sum of money. How much money was that?
16
A It wasn ' t money ; it was marijuana.
17
Q How much marijuana was it?
18
A Fifty pounds .
19
Q How much does that go for?
20
A It depe nds on your neighborhood .
Q
21
Appro ximately at that time, l et 's say in the
22
neighborhood in which the act you were complaining about
occurred?
23
A l\.bout $200 a pound. It was in Florida.
24
Q About $10 , 000, maybe?
25
BLITZ REPORTING CO.
15 P ARK ROW. N.Y. 1003 8 PHONES' 349-3108-9
]
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But you see, in the
A Yes, about ten grand.
3 course of this there is a cost of doing business; the cost
4
of doing business is all of it.
I don't make any profits,

5
so I don't pay any taxes. It's obvious what I am saying
6 is I don't pay any taxes to the United States Government
7 and I don't have any intention to pay taxes to the United
8
States Government. Therefore, I am not going to state
9 under testimony that I made any money on any ventures.
10
Q Have you ever or do you ever intend to pay
11
taxes to the State of New York or the State of Florida or
12
any other state or municipal jurisdiction?
13
A I don't intend to pay any taxes to any govern-
14
ment agency in the world at any time at this point, Since
15
I am an anarchist., I don't believe in government.
16
Q
Have you done that in the past? Have.you made
17
out tax returns and paid taxes?
18
A I can't ever remember making a --
19
Q To any state or municipal government?

20
21
A I have sort of a deal with the government.
Whatever they get is theirs and whatever I get is mine .
Q This deal, is this like the other deals you
l
22
are telling us about where you made a specific agreement
23
with some government official?
24
A I have no agreement with any government
25
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15 PARK ROW, N.Y, 10038 PHONES: 349-3108·9
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2 official.
I just decided I'm not going to pay any taxes.
3 Q
You used the word "deal," as a joke?
4
A
I have, at times, say, for a few days, worked

5
and the monies that I may have earned would have been,
6 would have had withholding taxes taken out of it, and if
7 there was any withholding tax which was taken, I never
8 filed to get any back and I let the government keep that
9
but I did not file income tax.
I just refuse to file it.
10 I don't pay any attention to that.
11
Q
Where did you get the money to use to go in
12
the boat business?
13
14
A I didn't put any money in the boat business.
They pay me a small amount of money for advice.
]
15
Q We are all aware that legal proceedings are
16
expensive. How do you finance legal proceedings; from
17
what source of income?
18
A
My attorney, at this point, does not charge
19
me any money.
He has -- I believe he used the term ''pro
20
bono." Is that the term? Pro bono publico.
Since I don't

21
pay this poor fellow, we are wasting a tremendous amount
of time.
I don't pay any attorney.
22
23
Where did I get the money to pay Michael
Kennedy?
From the marijuana business. J
24
..
Q
In fact, over the course of your dealings
in
25
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58

2 the marijuana business , you have taken in a great deal
)
3 of money , have you not?
4
A Yes, but I didn't make any. The cost of doing
5 business was always just about exactly the amount of the
6 marijuana business.
7 Q Would you say , perhaps, over the cours e of
8 your lifetime you have taken in more than a million dollars
9 in t he marijuana business?
10
A ·rf the question is, has a million dollars gone
11
through my hands in the marijua na business, yes .
12
Q So given the income position that you are tell-
13
ing us that you have at this point , you are not claiming
14
that Mr. Weberman 's article caused you any loss of any in-
15
c ome in the opal or boat business, are you?
16
A · I'm claiming that it caused me not to make any
17
money and that is why I haven't made any money, because
18
there are certain peop le who have ref used to do business
19
with me based on the fact Weberman ' s article states I am
20
an informant and who have testified before a grand jury
21
in Brooklyn .
Q l·vho were thos e people that refused to do
22
23
business with you as a result of the articl e ?
A Well, I attempted to hire someone for the
24
25
magazine that I ha d projected for the future , recently,
BLITZ REPORTING CO.
1 5 PARK ROW. N.Y. 10038 PHONES: 349· 3108·9
1 Eder
2
and that person said, "If I want a cop, I will
3 police station.''
4 Q With regard to your earnings in the opal

5 business or boat business, are there any earnings that you
6 have lost as a result of the publication of this article?
7
A Yes, I believe so. There is a fellow in Texas,
8 his name is Ray
9
Q Ray what?
10
A Carter.
11
Q Do you know his address?
12
A No, not at the moment, but I will certainly
13
get it for you.
And Ray Carter refused to become involved
14 with me in the opal business over the incident.
15
Q
Had you previously been involved in the opal
16
business with Mr. Carter?
17
A No.
18
Q
That was only a plan possibility?
19
A The venture.
The venture specifically went
20
down because of this article.

21
Q Did that venture produce any income to you in
22
the past?
A No.
23
Q
Do you ever charter your boat to smugglers?
24
A No.
25
BLITZ REPORTING CO.
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2
Q Outlaws of a ny kind?
'
J
'..______/
3
A Not to my knowledge .
4
MR. MICHAELS: Let ' s take a recess.
5 (Reces s taken .)
6 BY MR. MICHAELS:
7
Q Do I understand correctly you have told us
8 that your only income from legitimate businesses , duri ng
9 1977 and 1978, was a few hundred dollars?
10
A No. You understand correctly as stating that
11
that is all I wish to state that I had made simply becaus e
12
I don't want it to appear anywhere on the record that I
13
have stated more than that because I don't want the govern-
14
ment, at some point , to come back to me and say why didn ' t
15
I pay taxes on it.
16
Q Did you lose   ~ y money on a ny existing legi timat
17
business as a result of the publication of the article?
A
18
Yes , I did. It has caused me - - It has caused
19
me to postpone the publication date of magazine that I have
20
been planning for the past year.
Q Did you have any income from that magazine in
21
the past?
22
A No , it was just a projected income.
23
24
25
Q Is there any existing business that provided
you with income which has been harmed economically by thi s
l
BLITZ REPORTING CO.
15 PARK ROW, N .Y. 10039 PHO NES, 349-3109-9
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2
3
4

.
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20

21
22
23
24
25
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publication?
F
vi
MR. KAHN: I have to object to that
question on the grounds it already has been asked
and answered.
MR. MICHAELS: Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
MR. MICHAELS: Back on the record.
A Yes. The reason I have not done any business
in the marijuana business in 1979 is primarily based on
this article.
Q In fact, the primary loss economically you had
as a result of this publication is the decline of your
marijuana business, is it not?
A Exactly.
Q That is the overwhelming and predominant thing
that the case is about, isn't it?
A Yes. It most certainly is. I think I can
answer that that is true.
Q
Thank you.
Off the record .
(Discussion off the record.)
MR. MICHAELS: Back on the record.
Q You have told us about your belief that that
article was published with malice?
BLITZ REPORTING CO.
15 PARK RO\V, N.Y. 10038 PHONES: 3A9·310B·9

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62
2 A Correct.
3
Q
What do you believe the origin was of that
4 malice?
5 A
My refusal to any longer sell marijuana to
6 A. J. \•leberman at very good prices.
7 Q When was that?
8 A I stopped selling it to him around June of
9 1977. I believe that is the last transaction, June of
10
1977. It may have been July, ·but I don't remember, but in
the summer, spring or summer of 1977 I stopped selling to
11
12
him.
13
Q You stopped because you believed the selling
14
of marijuana was wrong, against the law or some other
15
reason?
16
A No, I cut him off,
17
Q Why?
18
A Because I decided he was a pain in the ass.
19
Q Didn't you leave to1vn about that time because
20
of the article that appeared in HIGH TIMES that claimed
21
you were·a narc informant?
22
A Excuse me. The time I stopped doing business,
I cut him -- cut A. J. Weberman fr'om his supply of
23
marijuana took place in June or July of 1977. The publica-
24
25
tion in question is, the HIGH TIMES article appeared in the
BLITZ REPORTING CO.
15 PARK ROW, N.Y. 10036 PHONES: 3.:9-3108·9
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63
2 De c emhe r i s sue which proba bly came out i'lround the e nd of
3 Oc t o ber or the beginning of NovembP-r .
4
Q
When wa s it that Michael Ke nnedy made the
5 sta t ement that you were a n a rc informant?
6 A I believe around Labor Day of that same ye ar
7 and I had cut him off months before that .
8
Q
That was during the time you were working
9
for the government age ncy you have na med in the limite d
10
way you have specified?
11
A No.
I had not wo r ked for those go vernmen t
12
agencies . I worked twice for the Feder a l nur e au of In-
13
ve stiga tion on the telephone deal in 1975 and I worked
14
with the governme nt on the othe r case , t he computers , in
15
1976 , so it was , like , at lea st a minimum of a y ear ha d
16
gone by since I had anything to do with the gover nme nt .
17
Q
Let me show you this document, sir , Rnd ask yo u
18
if this is your complaint iri the case we a re di scuss ing?
19
The summons is o n top and the doc ument be low tha t is the
20
one I am refer ring to .
A Ye s , I think so . It l ooks like it.
21
Q Tha nk you . At the time of the e vents tha t you
22
are complaining a bout in the lawsuit that we are dis cussing
23
today , your complaint state s in paragr aph 6 that you were
24
self- employed as e ntrepreneur a nd ventur e capitalist ; is
25
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2 that true?
3
A I'm not sure what "venture capitalist" is. I
4
am an entrepreneur . I don 't have a capital to be a venture
5 capitalist and I know a lot of capitalists with money and
6 I put together a lot of deals .
7
Q ivhat do you do when you put together deals?
8
A I'm trying to put together a magazine . I have
9
received commitments for large sums of money to put this
10
magazine out, and because of · this article , I have not been
11
able to hire certain parties who have refused to work for
12
me simply because of this article and this kind of a rep uta-
13
tion .
14
Q ivho has made commitments to finance your ve nture
15
you are telling us about?
16
A Certain people in the Caribbean .
17
Q Who?
18
I'm not going to tell you that. If it becomes A
19
necessary a t trial , if it is up for question , I suppose I
20
wi ll bring these people in.
Q If there is going to be a trial, it is ne c essary
21
for you to establish a b as is on which to proceed. I a sk
22
you if the basis of the statements in the complaint are
23
true a s to what your income was, and if you are telling
24
me you list specific monies , I have to ask you to ide ntify
25
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65
which moni e s and from whom.
A Time out.
(Recess take n. )
MR. MICHAELS: Bac k on the record .
A My answer to that is I can list three peop le
and at the time of the trial . When it   ne cess ary,
I will be very happy to give up thos e names , but at this
point in time , since I have   damaged maliciously by
Mr . ·weberman, I have every reason to he lieve those names
I may give you at this point will also be damaqed by Mr.
Weberman in print and the refore , prior to asking these
people if I use their names, I c a nnot give you· their
names . However, I will agree that be fore the month of
February is out, to transmit those names to you . That is
as far as I can go . I can ' t give you those p eople's names
unti l I ask them.
Q As a r e sult of the alle gations in the a rticle
you a r e compl a ining of, are there a ny other monies that you
list?
A I think I have already answered that , with re-
gard to not being in the marijuana busine ss in 1979 simply
b e cause people don't want to do business with me , based on
this article by Weberman .
Q Is it your op inion you have the r ight to be in
B LI TZ REPORTI NG CO.
15 PARK ROW, N.Y. 10036 PHO NES' 349-31 0 6·9
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2 the marijuana business?
3
MR. KAHN: I am going to object to that
4
on the grounds it calls for an opinion which is
5
not legally material or admissible and therefore
6 it is not relevant to the deposition.
7
Q Your complaint says in paragraph 6 that at the
s time of the events complained of herein, you were self-
9
employed as an entrepreneur and venture capitalist. Are
10
the bases you told us about the extent of your effort as
11
an entrepreneur and venture capitalist, that is, the pro-
12
posed magazine, the opal business, the boat business and
13
the marijuana business? Is that all the businesses you
14
\Vere in?
15
A Let me state this. That is correct except for
16
the fact that up to th.is point in time, my attorney, Mr.
17
Marc· Kahn, had no idea of the fact I was in the marijuana
18
business. That is the first he learned of that, so we will
19
clear the record.
20
Yes, that is true, other than having losses --

21
I can only think of one loss in the opal business, but I
can think of three losses in the magazine business.
22
Now, since the money has already been put up
23
on the magazine, I believe that I can prove in a court of
24
law I have in fact been injured in the magazine business.
25
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Eder 67
2
MR. KAHN: For the record, he has also
3 testified earlier that he is involved in the ear
4 business.
5 Q
The businesses you are talking about are in
6 the proposed magazine business and marijuana business and
7 the sympathetic ear business? You lost business in the
8 ear
9
A
I lost business in every area because social
10
ostracism took place by virtue of this article.
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Q
You say you will do -- You mean by that you
have
A
I think I can prove -- we can prove in a court
of law, when we p.it people on the stand, they in fact did
not enter into business dealings with me or refused to go
ahead with business dealings, agreements we had prior to
this article appearing.
Q
But in 1978 your total income was two or three
hundred dollars; is that correct?
A My statement is, here again, my statement is I
keep no records because I don't intend to pay the govern-
ment any taxes on what I earn in any area, so when people
ask me how much money I made last year; I generally tell
them less than what it costs, less than what the figure is
for paying taxes. That is how I figure my income as less
BLITZ REPORTING CO.
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2 than taxes .
3
Q How much has your income declined since the
4 article was
5
A Half.
6 Q Half of what?
7
A
The few hundred dollars that I made last year.
8
Q Therefore, you are saying your business losses,
9
in your various businesses , come to half of a few hundred
10
dollars?
11
A I a m in a cross here . I am damned if I do and
12
damned if I don't. I ' m stating that because of the Internal
13
Revenue Service having access to what is in fact the publ ic
14
document, which I am dictating at this point , that I don't
15
want to state I made more money than that . My primary
16
objection to these lie s that were printed about me is
17
social. My attorney, however, tells me that I must show
18
financial damage in order to make my case stronger . I
19
don ' t care if my case is stronger or not stronger. Mr .
20
\veberman malicious ly defamed me in print a nd my s tatement
is this has hurt me socially much more than it has hurt
21
me on a business level, which is the purpose .
22
So whatever discussion that you get into with
23
regard to my fina nces is pretty much a dead end because we
24
are not going to get anywhere. I am not going to admit to
25
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2 you having made more money than I would have to pay taxes
3 on.
4 I would like to make one point

5 MR. KAHN:
On the record he has already
6
testified that he has lost business opportunities for
7 investment in various business ventures which have
8 resulted in lost income opportunity for him in the
9 future as well as present and past.
10
Q
How many dollars, approximately, do you feel
11
you lost already as a result of the publication of this
12
article?
13
A I don't know, but I will state this, that I
14
have one person, one of the three people who I will or will
15
not give you the names, depending on whether or not they
16
are willing to give their names up, and one of these people,
17
since the article, refused, changed his mind with regard to
18
investing $100,000 in a magazine. That is a substantial
19
sum of money.
20
Q What is the name of the magazine you proposed?
A OUTLAW.

21
Q Is that about criminal business?
22
A Yes, .of course. · It is about those outside the
23
law.
24
25
Q Did you discuss these losses and your various
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Eder
2 busines s los ses and lost oppo rtuniti es with your attorney
3 prior to today?
4 MR. KAHN :
I am going to object to tha t
5
on the grounds t hat is a confidential matter. That
6
is not subject to y our disclosure . I wi ll ob j ec t t o
7 any line of questioning that has to do with what he
8 has discussed with his attorney , a s I am sure you
9
would.
10
Q I believe you t old us you are a part owner of
11
a company that owns a boat; is that correct?
12
A 'That's correct .
T4
13
Q You are aware, I assume , your complaint s t   t e ~
14
in paragraph 6 that you were the sole owner of a boati ng
15
and yachting business?
16
A Does it s ay that?
17
Q Which is correct?
18
A That i s correct , I own more than one boat.
19
Q How many boats ?
20
A The company I own, solely owns a boat in Ne w
21
York. Okay ?
Q Ri ght .
22
A I own a s mal l piece of anoth er company tha t owns
23
another boat in the Caribbean. The company that owns the
24
boat in New York is called Picare sque .
25
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Eder
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Q Is that the ear bus iness?
3 A But it also owns a boat .
4 Q Does the ear business use the boat?
-
5 A No.
6
Q Where is the boat in the Caribbean?
7 A I told you I won ' t tell you that.
8 Q Do you own any pieces of any other boating
9
businesses?
10
A No.
11
Q How much money did Pi caresque make in its boat-
12
ing bus iness i n 1 977, 1978?
13
A Picaresque only came into business in 1978 and
14
it has not earned any money off its boating ve nture.
15
Q What about the other boating bus ine ss in the
16
Caribbean that you don 't want to discus s the l ocation o f ~
17
how much has that made?
18
A The company?
19
Q Yes.
20
A I don't know . Maybe the company made f ifty
21
thous and last year b ut I onl y own a s mall piece of that
22
company .
Q You didn ' t de rive a ny income from that ?
23
A Ye s , a f ew do l lars , but I don ' t know how much.
24
Q Not much?
25
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Eder
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A Not much . Again, we are back to the ques tion
3 of what my f inances are , which could go to the Internal
4 Revenue Service and therefore , I don ' t want t o do that
5 and I don ' t want t o lie, but - -
6 Q
I understand your position , but when it says
7 in paragraph 6 you were the owner a nd successful operator
8 of a boating a nd yachting busi nes s , does that refer to t he
9 business which made no money or the bus iness whi c h made
10
some money? · Which bus ine ss doe s that refer to that wa s
11
success ful?
12
A If I am the sole owner, that is the business
1
13
that is the successful business . That would have to be
14
Pi caresque of New York .
15
Q That made no money from the boating business?
16
A -That's right .
17
Q
Do you contend the a llegation in paragraph 6
18
t hat you were the successful operator of thi s business is
19
meant to read t hat in fac t it wa s a money-making business ?
A
20
No . The word " success ful" does not mean money-
21
making.
Q What doe s it mean?
22
A It means if is not unsucces sfu l .
It is in
23
busines s and it is operating a nd it is a success .
I cer -
24
tainly don't want to deal wi th the t erms or the def inition
25
BLITZ REPORTI NG CO.
1 5 PARK ROW, N .Y. 10038 PHONES' 349-3108-9
1 Eder
2 of the term " succe ss," b ut suc cess is onlv connoted by
3 most l awyer s as being monetary . A sucGessful person is
4 not necessarily a wealthy person.
5 Q In paragraph 7 of your complaint it says you
6 had a good reputat ion for t r uthfulness , worthiness and
7 good character. Which group of peopl e held that opinion
8 of you?
9
A Outl aws .
10
Q So you mean , when you say a mong your fri ends
11
and business associates , in paragraph 7 , you mean other
12
people involved in violating the marijuana law previous l y
13
held you in high e steem?
14
A That is corre ct .
15
Q Are you talking about anybody e l s e ?
16
A I ' m talking about people outside . of t hat, a s
17
we l l.
18
Q
Who are t he peopl e that he ld this opinion of
19
you?
20
]'\ Outside t h e mari juana bus i ness1
Q
Inside or outs ide , would you tell us who it is
21
that you believe fe lt you h ad a good reputation for truth-
22
fulness , worthiness and good character?
23
A Almost everyone I knew.
24
Q Most of the people you knew were in t he
25
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2 marijuana business, I guess; is that true?
3
A No, not most of them. I would say --
4
Q
l"lhat you are really complaining about in this

5 case is the loss of faith of the people in the marijuana
6 business who previously believed you were an honest out-
7 law and came to believe, through the article
8
A
That is only part of it. The other part is
9
the people that come in contact with me on an every day
10
basis . I want it clear that no matter what my complaint
11
says, my complaint was drawn by my attorney.
12
Q Do you agree with it? Is it true?
13
A Yes, it is true but it is not the main thrust
of my argument. The main thrust of my argument is this
15
man maliciously called me a government informant and the
16
society in which we live, a government informant is a man
17
who puts another man in prison for himself and is looked
18
upon as a piranha, and that is the thrust of my argument
19
here. All the rest of it, you are just killing time here
20
by David Michaels going through the garbage. You are going

21
through sheer nugatory verbiage in an attempt to maybe
justify your fee, I don't know, but whatever the point is,
22
you are not touching on any of the real things. The real
23
thing is this man maliciously attempted to hurt me in print
24
25
and he did so with lies and that is what I am fighting. He
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Eder
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tells me I have to show financial danages.
3 Q
You are referring to your attorney?
4 A
My attorney tells me I have to show financial

5
damages. I am saying that may be the case, but as things
6 stand, it is difficult for me to show financial damages,
7 but it is going to be very easy for me t.o show I was
8 damaged socially.
9
Q
In fact, isn't it impossible for you to show
10 financial damage?
11
MR. KAHN: Objection.
12
A
It's very easy for me to show financial damage
13 with the magazine venture. I have one person, if he is
14
willing to let me use his name, willing to step forth in
15
this case, one person who is willing to state that two days
r
16
after this article appeared in The Village Voice, he called
17
me up and told me, "Hey, Chic, forget it."
18
Q So what you are telling us is in fact that you
19
may or may not be able to show financial damages, but your
20
real concern is

21
22
MR. KAHN: Objection. He already stated
he can show financial damages.
23
A The prime thrust is not financial damage. The
24
prime thrust of my case is I have been damaged on a social
25
level and maliciously, through liable, so we can save a lot
BLITZ REPORTING CO.
15 PARK ROW, N.Y. 10038
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Eder
76
2 of time. My case is, this is what I assume discovery is
3 all about, and taking a deposition for discovery is to
4 find out what I am stating. My case against Weberman, my
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
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22
23
24
25
case against Weberman is simply I stopped selling him
marijuana.
I sold Weberman marijuana for resale and sold
it to him in quantities for resale and I stopped selling
him marijuana for resale in quantity and therefore, he
maliciously attacked me in a newspaper and deliberately
lied and maliciously attacked me in this publication and
I have been damaged by that on a social level as well as
a financial level.
Q
Isn't it true that most of the financial losses
you are claiming are losses to your marijuana business?
A I don't want to say most or least or anything.
I am saying I have been hurt in the marijuana business and
I have also been hurt in the magazine business and also
been hurt in the opal business and I am stating that is
what is going on here. I don't want to play any games.
To continue what I am trying to say, Mr.
Michaels, is I feel you are putting up a smoke screen. At
this point, what we are dealing with is the fact that I have
been damaged. My contention is I have been damaged malici-
ously by A. J. Weberman, socially primarily and business
secondarily.
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Eder
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2 Do you want to deal with it based on that
3 open and honest statement?
4 Q
I will deal with the questions. You deal with

5
the answers and that is the format for today, if that is
6 all right with you.
7 A Right on.
8 Q
I want to show you an exhibit attached to your
9 plaintiff's complaint in this action, that being a photo-
10 copy of The Village Voice concerning an article. My ques-
11
tion is whether this in fact is the article you are com-
12
plaining about?
13
A Yes, that is it.
14
Q Does it say within that article that you were
15
a DEA informant?
16
A I believe the words·are "high level EDA ... "
17
MR. KAHN: I object to any questions with-
18
out showing him a copy of the article, so we know what
19
you are talking about.
20
A That's the article. Now, it's right here.
21
Go ahead, what is your question?
22
Q It says within the article you were a DEA in-
formant?
23
24
A No, it doesn't. It says based on the testimony
25
of Chic Eder, a high level informant.
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Eder
78
Q Were you or were you not in the limite d work
with tha t agency , which you have described to us , a high
level informant ?
A Aga in , at such time as you question a DEA agent
with regard t o what t heir levels are , you might be able to
ascertai n whethe r it is a high level or low level. Okay?
Q Did you not tell us before that security of
their personnel and their information was a very import a nt
priority for that agency?
A Yes, I stated that the only two things they
were more concerned with than arrest and conviction .we re
those two factors . Again, a s to whether it is a high l evel
DEA infor man t , I a m not arguing the point. I did do busi-
ness with the Drug Enforcement Administration and I am not
arguing that point at all .
;"'-
Q You   in fact?
A Of cours e I have . The point is , now, the point
you are belaboring is high l eve l . I have a nswered the ques-
tion that I c a nnot state what l evel I was . V0 u will h ave
to ask the DEA. Okay?
Q Fine. Yvhere in that articl e do you find an
a llegation that you received financial rewards for informing
on Tom Forcade? Would you poi n t out the place in that
article wh ere it is stated and i mplie d ?
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2
A It states it negatively. There is an inference.
3 By use of informant, there is inferred in that the fact of
4 payment by the government.
•·
5
Q In fact, monetary payment? In fact, when you
6 were a DEA informant, what you received by way of considera-
7 tion was your release from jail; is that not true?
8
A That is not true. What I received was a quash-
9 ing of a case against me.
10
Q ~   t financial reward?
11
A Not financial.
12
Q
In fact, you know informants are also rewarded
13
in nonfinancial ways?
14
A No question about it. l\That we are stating,
15
again, is inferred in that is the payment from the govern-
ment.
16
17
Q Simply by use of the word "informant"?
18
A Yes. It is my contention that is inferred by ·
19
a greater number of people.
20
Q In fact, you never gave the government any
false information on Tom Forcade because you never gave

21
them any information on Tom Forcade; is that correct?
22
A That's correct.
23
24
25
Q Where in that article do you find any inference
that you gave any false information against Tom Forcade?
I
BLITZ REPORTING CO.
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Eder
8 0
2
A Excuse me. Le t me try this aga in .
3 Aga in, you are getting cute, and I am not
4 talking about your face . It says h ere in 1977 a Fe dera l
5 grand jur y in Brooklyn b egan a n investigation c o nc erning
6
Tom Forcade . That part of it ; that is a quote and that
7 part of it has nothing to do with me , w ~   t h   r the y started
8 a n investigation or not is not none of my business .
9 Q Do you know whether that is true?
10
A No , I don 't know whether that is true . The
11
ne xt part says, " Based on testimony of Chic Eder ..• ", I
12
am not sure of the l egal definition of legal testimony
13
but I know wha t pe ople believe testimony is and testimony
14
is that you s wear or you give informa tion against some-
I
15
body. You testify agains t someone and I am stating that
16
categorical ly, at no time have I ever testified fo r ·a
17
grand jury in New York or for that matter , t o the best of
18
my knowl e dge , anywhere . Okay? So that is my contention.
19
You are trying to deal with a high level DEA informa nt and
20
I want to d e a l with t he crux of the case , which is based o n
-
21
the testimony of Chic Eder .
22
You' re s tating -- I'm saying in court - - I want
23
t o state in court that Weberman has said that I have given
24
testimony in a Brookl yn Federal grand jury in 1977 and I
25
am stating that is the basis of my case , that I ha ve not
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2 given testimony against Forcade or anybody else or any
3 grand jury or any other place. So if you want to -- My
4 question to you is, have we dealt with high level DEA in-

5 formant?
6
Q My question to you, sir, is whether the allega-
7 tion of paragraph 10 (b) of your complaint is true? That
8 allegation says the article included, at least by the
9
understanding of a reader, that you laid a false charge.
10
So I am asking you where in the article do you find any
11
allegation of falsity?
12
MR. KAHN: Excuse me --
13
A I did not give any testimony, so we may have
l4 made an error in that with regard to false testimony. I
15
haven't given any testimony.
16
MR. KAHN: You are asking Mr. Eder to
17
address certain things
18
MR. MICHAELS: I am asking if his com-
19
plaint is true and --
20
MR. KAHN: I think his answer is yes.
Off the record .

21
(Discussion off the record.)
22
MR. MICHAELS: Back on the record.
23
Q Paragraph lO(b) of the complaint says that the
24
25
reasonable inference from the article you are complaining
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Eder
againu
about was that you laid a f als e infor ma tion
3 Forcade . Is that your position today or is it your pos i-
4 tion t hat the inference here that you are compl aining of ,
5
that you gave any informa tion, true or fal s e - -
6
A It should be both .
7 Q Where do you find any inference f r om the
8 ar ticle that you gave false information?
9
A I don't .
10
Q I'm sorry?
11
A But I think my attorney does.
12
Off the r e cord .
13
( Discussion off the record.)
14
MR. KAHN : Back on the record .
15
A I don ' t know what is go ing on , whet he r it
16
should be fals·e informat ion , using the term as he is
17
using it and information as opposed to a n in<lictment i n
18
a criminal proceeding . I don ' t know whe the r he is doing
19
that .
20
MR. I<AHN : I am indicating 'i:he term us e d
e
21
22
in those two paragraphs, lO(b) and (c), are used as
a term of art to describe a l egal proceedi ng i nvolv-
23
ing an investi gation , and he is no t qual i fied to
discuss it as a term of art .
24
MR. MICHAELS : Is the word " f a l se " a term
25
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2 of art?
3
MR. KAHN: Yes, the word ''false,'' in
4
connection with the criminal information, is a term

5 of art.
6
MR. MICHAELS: What do you define that
7
to mean, for the purposes of subparagraph lO(b)?
8 MR. Y-AHN: I am suggesting that means
9
that the inferences from this article are that he
10
went to a grand jury and stimulated an information
11
of Forcade for some criminal activity for which the
12
grand jury was sitting; and the implication through-
13
out the article was that any charges he might have
14
leveled against Forcade would have been false and
15
therefore he placed a false information against
16
Forcade.
17
MR. MICHAELS: Where in the article do
18
you find the.basis for the inferences? What word
19
suggests falsity?
20
MR. KAHN: The entire paragraph in which

21
that statement appears .
Off the record.
22
(Discussion off the record.)
23
THE WITNESS: On the record. My con-
24
tention is that I have at no time testified against
25
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2
Forcade in anything much less than a Brooklyn grand
3 jury. My attorney may or may not be mistaken in the
4 use of the term "false." It has nothing to do with

5
my complaint. My complaint is, I did not testify at
6
all and he has claimed that I have testified and that
7 is where the falseness lies, as far as I am concerned.
8 BY MR. MICHAELS:
9 Q Your complaint says in paragraph lO(d), your
10
complaint includes a statement that the article you complain
11
about has, as one of its reasonable inferences for the
12
average reader, that you were responsible for causing an
13
airplane crash in which one Jack Combs
14
A It doesn't say that in the article. There is
15
just a Jack, not Combs. At that time, my contention is,
16
Mr. Weberman did· not know the last name. He certainly
17
didn't know where Jack crashed.
18
Q When you say in your complaint that the article
19
that you are complaining about says that you caused the
20
plane crash, I am asking where in the article do you find

21
that?
22
A It is implied.
MR. KAHN: I will answer that for him
23
24
because the article itself is ripe with inferences.
25
Tom Forcade was the object of various forms of
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2
government harassment and persecution and all aspects
3
of government that had anything to do with the law
4 enforcement and linking Mr. Eder's name to the EDA,
5 in the sense he was allegedly responsible for in-
6 stituting an investigation in testifying against
7
him, Mr. Forcade, at the grand jury and linking his
8
association to the DEA, to the insertion of the
9
article that Tom told Mr. Weberman that he believed
10
the DEA Special Operations Division may have sabotaged
11
Jack's aircraft, would suggest to an average reader,
12
reading the entire article fairly, that Mr. Eder was
13
somehow tied into this and responsible for this.
14
Q The Jack is Jack someone else?
15
A Ask him. I didn't write the article, he did.
16
Q Did you ever have any contact with DEA's Special
17
Operations Division?
18
A No, I have never had any contact, except with
19
one person in DEA.
20
Q Who is that?

21
A I don't remember his name but I certainly will
call the DEA and find out about it before the case closes.
22
Do you know?
23
Q You mean to say you gave --
24
A His name is Don. One primary person with whom
25
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2 I dealt was Don.
3 Q There are other people you dealt with?
4
A
There are other people in the room, I suppose,
5
at various times the discussions went down, but I was only
6 doing business with one guy.
7 Q Doing business was the arrangement with regard
8 to their telephone security and computer security?
9
A No.
Computer security. 'rhe other had nothing
10 to do with that agency.
11
Q
Had to do with another agency?
12
A The Federal Bureau of Investigation.
13
Q Whom did you deal with there?
14
A Tom, on the West Coast.
15
Q Do you know his name?
16
A Yes. Tom.
17
Q
Do you know his last name?
18
A No, but I have it written down somewhere.
19
Q
Would-you be willing to disclose that to us?
20
A Undoubtedly, since I am probably going to ask

21
the man to testify .
22
Q Where do you find, in the article you are com-
23
plaining about, any allegation that you caused Mr. Forcade's
death?
24
A
25 .
Let me put it this 1·ray: I don't need a la1·.'Yer
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for that.
Going on beyond this, I will start at the be-
3 ginning of the paragraph and this is one paragraph.
4 "In 1977, a Federal grand jury in Brooklyn began
5
an investigation concerning Tom Forcade, based on the tes-
6 timony of Chic Eder, a high level DEA, who has been charac-
7 terized as Mr. Marijuana in several magazine articles." The
3 very next sentence, "The pressure began to build and Tom
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
started going into periods of extreme depression.
He would
assume a fetal position, cover himself with a sheet, and
remain like that for days."
It goes on to state he at one point,'' he took
an overdose of Qualudes and stumbled over to Gabriel Schang'
apartment where he collapsed. Gabriel and her friend,.
Jim Turgus, who worked in Tom's book store across from
Gabriel's apartment, took him to Bellevue where his
stomach was pumped. "
This is stated in one paragraph. That my
testimony -- I am reading from this paragraph that my
testimony was in fact directly responsible for Tom's
death .
Q That is the paragraph that you find leads the
reader to believe you were directly responsible for his
death?.
A That is correct.
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Q Paragraph 17, you state that you were injured
3 t o the sum of $1 million .
4 How do you compute t hat?
5 A Because I assume the o ne hundre d t housand that
6
fellow wa s will ing to p ut into my magazine would have made
7 a t l east $1 million by the end of the year.
8 Q
That is the basis for tha t ca l cul ation?
9
A Tha t's ri ght.
10
Q What makes you think that Mr . Ryan,· Mis s
11
Partridge, Mr. Mu rdoch and The Village Voi ce , Inc. were
12 solely motivated by animosi ty and hatre d fo r you? Para-
13 graph 21.
14
A We ll, I a m not saying that. I don't know what
15 my lawyer wrote h ere. My statement is - -
16
MR. KAHN : Off the record.
17
(Discuss ion off the r e cord .)
18
.MR . I<AHN : Back on the record.
19
A My statement is that A. J . Weberman was
20
motivated by animosity a nd hatred for the p l ainti ff a nd
21
I f eel the o t he r defendants in the c ase had , the other
22
defendants in the c ase did not ch eck the veracity of A. J.
23
Weberman's story and they have, based o n A. J. Weberrna n's
24
repu tation in the world of journalis m or in t he l iterary
25
world and on certain other things that are widely known
BLI TZ REPORTING CO.
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2
Eder
regard to his ~  
in the publishing industry, with
3 and with regard to his journalistic credibility, they
4 should have checked A. J. Weberman extremely close before

5 printing anything that A. J. Weberman might have submitted.
6 Q
Would you now withdraw the allegation of para-
7 graph 21 that the other defendants, The Village Voice, Inc.,
8 Ryan and Partridge and Murdoch were solely motivated by
9 animosity and hatred for you and their sole purpose for
10
publishing was to injure you and cause distress?
11
MR. KAHN: The response to the question
12
is no.
13
Off the record.
14
(Discussion off the record.)
15
MR. MICHAELS: Back on the record.
16
Q Whether in fact the allegation of paragraph 21
17
of the· complaint is tended to relate only to the defendant
18
Weberman or whether you wou].d amend it to delete the
19
allegation of malicious animosity and hatred presented by
20
the other defendants, that is the question.

21
22
A Yes, I would like to amend my statement.
Q You mean the complaint?
23
A Amend this complaint so paragraph 21 only deals
with the defendant Weberman in this case. I'm sorry, there
24
is an error in this case and the error is mine for not
25
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having properly communicated this to my a ttorney.
3
think Weberman acted in this manner.
4
I feel in paragraph 22 --
5
MR. KAHN: Off the record.
6
(Discussion off the record.)
7
MR KAHN: On the record.
8
THE WITNESS: There seems to
9
be a lack of communication on my part with my
10
att orney.
11
On paragraph 21, I do not honestly
12
believe that the defendants were solely motivated
13
by malicious animosity and hatred.
14
I believe A. J. We be rman is t he s ingle
15 defendant who was motivated by malicious animosity
16 a nd hatred. The rest of paragraph 21 should only
17 read A . . J. Weberrnan. I don't honest ly be lieve there
18 was a ny conspiracy afoot,
19 I don't think Weberrnan went to these
20 people at The Vill age Voice and said,
11
Let 's get
21 Chic Eder." And I think he went to The Village
22
Voice and sold them on this article and happened
23
to get them to go along with his program to
24
maliciously get me in print.
25
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2
My argument is at this point that I would
3 like to make a statement for .the record, on paragraph
4 21: It is only A. J. Weberman whose motivation was

5 this.
6
On paragraph 22, I am going to ask my
7 attorney, on paragraphs 22 and 23, to delete the
8 conspiracy simply because I don't believe a con-
9
spiracy did in fact exist.
10
My attorney is concerned with the fact
11
that I say this on the record and that some judge
12
might look at that and say that if he is so willing
13
to amend, 1·1ha t is going on here. What is going on
14
here is the mistake is mine. I allowed this to go
15
into the court in this manner, without having read
16
it. I don't believe 22 and 23 are valid. My attorney
17
did at that time. Since we went in the other room
18
and discussed it, I don't. He still feels there may
19
have been something in that area, but I feel if I
20
leave this complaint as it stands, Mr. Michaels,

21
22
being a lawyer, will make a big issue out of this
rather than what the real issue is. lve gave him an
issue that allows it to be clouded. I don't want to
23
24
deal with that. I want to change paragraph 21 to
25
read solely A. J. Weberman and 22 and 23 I want to
I
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delete. That is all I am saying.
\
3
Q
It may be somewhat irregular, so let me commend
4 you for answering candidly .and for allowing us to clarify

5 this.
6
When I previously inquired to your attorney
7 what the complaint was about, he told me he was unwilling
8 to answer the question and that we would have to wait until
9
today to find out.
10
I commend you that when it was brought to your
11
attention, that you correct it so we can concentrate on
12
the real issue.
13
A I don't want to cloud the real case with a
l
l4 false case.
15
Q
On paragraph 24 it states you sustained actual
16
damages of a million dollars ask for a quarter of a million
17
in punitive damages because of the conspiracy between A. J.
18
h'eberman and The Village Voice and.the other defendants.
19
Would it be your statement that in fact para-
20
graph 24 therefore would have to be amended also?

21
A Paragraph 24 has nothing to do with the con-
22
spiracy.
23
Q Is that the same $1 million you were telling
us about before that you hoped and expected would be pro-
24
25
duced from the $100,000 through the publishing?
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2 A
No, this is injury a nd damage .
3
Q
How did you compute the $1 mi llion in paragraph
4 24 ?
5 A
One mil l ion is based on the million I would
6 have made with t h e magazine, and the o the r one is d amages.
7 That is wha t we are t alking about in pa ragraph 24 .
8 Q
Excuse me , I am not clear about wha t your
9
answer is .
10
The mi llion dollars that are asked .for ~  
11
paragraph 17 you have told us was money you would have
12
hoped to make f rom a magazi ne venture wh ich was effecti vely
13
killed by the publication of this article?
14
A That's correct .
15
Q The million dollars on paragraph 24 , what
16
million dolla rs is it that you a ctually los t thers; is it
17
the same?
18
A
There are two mill ions o n paragraph 24.
19
Q
I am talking about the actual damage allegation ,
20
not t he punitive alle0ation .
21
A The first actual l y was the millio n dollars I
22
assumed I would h ave made with the magazine and not lost
the $100 , 000 investor .
23
24
Q That is for paragraph 17 or 24 or are they t he
25
s ame? I am trying to clarify if it is the same million
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3
dollars or a different damage you sustained?
A The same one. l
4
MR. KAHN : Off the record .
5
(Di scuss ion off the record . )
6
MR. MICHAELS :   a ~ k on the record.
7 Q
In line with what you have told us to clarify
8 the accuracy of the complaint, would I be correct in be-
9 lieving you would also wish to make certain changes within
10
paragraph 6 which charges that each of the defendants did
11
unlawfully plan, plot and conspire between themselves to
12
publish false, liable and defamatory stateme nts? Is it
13 each of the defendants that unlawfully conspire d to do
14
that or only Mr . Weberman?
15
A Paragraph 6?
16
Q Twenty-six , I am sorry.
17
A
Twenty-six . I think 26 has to remain .
18
MR. KAHN: Off the record .
19
(Discussion off the record . )
20
MR. KAHN : On the record .
21
The answer to the question is no .
'
22
A We do not wish to change it for this rea son .
Tell him t he reason.
23
24
25
MR . KAHN: Because our present bel ief
is that the defendants did plan to publi s h and did
I
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2 in fact publish, in The Village Voice, the false,
3
malicious statement.
4
Q
Referring again to paragraph 26; is it your

5 belief that each of the other defendants conspired bet1veen
6 themselves to intentionally publish false information?
7
A If you are asking me whether I believe they
s sat down with A. J. Weberman and said, "Let's go get this
9 guy," if I believed that, I thought
10
Q ·You do believe the word "conspiracy" in para-
11
graph 26?
12
A However, if my attorney said, if they sat down
13
with Weberman and talked with Weberman in regard to this
14
and checked it and did not check it that is a lawyer's
15
argument and I will let the lawyers argue. My point is --
16
I want it clear. This is my deposition here -- I feel the
17
other defendants I feel A. J. Weberman has maliciously
18
attempted to attack me in this situation and these people
19
either actively
20
Q You mean the other defendants?

21
22
A The other defendants in the case either
actively or passively conspired to go along with his pro-
gram, to allow --
l
23
Q Are you claiming they knew the information was
24
false or.they   check they should have?
25
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15
16
17
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19
20
.e
21
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24
25
Eder
r;; 6·)
~   /
A What I am saying here
-- Off the record.
(Discussion off the record . )
MR. MICHAELS: Back on the r ecord.
Q Ar e you claiming that The Village Voice con-
spired to
MR. KAHN: The claim is - -
MR. MICHAELS: Unl e ss you are going on
under oath , I have to ask the witness .
A I can ' t say under oath I know they cons pire d
in the s e nse of the word. I know they conspire d t o be --
What I am s a ying is, my fee ling inhere nt in this para graph
26 is the fact that they did publish this information and
if they didn't know that it was fal s e, they should have
known it was false so they s hould at l east , s hould have
checked it prior to having it published.
Q Thank you.
A Next?
Q i·mere do you find in the article publishe d by
The Vill age Voice that t his whole c ase conce rns -- ~ v h e r e
do you firid t he s tate me nt or implica tion t hat you committed
perjury b e fore a g rand jury, a s all eged in Ar ticle 28?
A I don't find that .
Q Whe re do you find the allegation that you con-
s pired to murder Forcade's fri e nd J a ck?
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2 A
I think t hat is inherent in the re. We have
I
3 answered that question.
4
5
6
Q Wh ere do you find the a llegation that you
con-
spired to commit a burglary at Forcade ' s a partment?
A Same thing .
I
7 Q Where do you find in this articl e a ny accusa-
8 tion that you committed any crime?
9 Paragraph 29 of t he complaint refers to a n
10
al l egation within the article of your criminal conduct a nd
11
I am asking you what words in the article seem to you to
12
be indicative of an accusation that you committed a c r ime?
13
A
That is inherent in there, when he is talking
14
about me a s being Mr . -- First of all, I see it.
I can
15
agr ee with that . As soon as he talks about me bei ng Mr .
16
Marij ua na , the magazine article , with regard to that , dealt
17
with that criminal conduct.
18
Q In other words , the criminal conduct p h rase
19
within paragraph 29 refers to marijuana ve ntures and not
20
t o a ny allegation in the story that you committe d a perjury
21
before a grand jury, c a used the cra s h of an airplane,
22
murder or burglary or anything else?
MR. KAHN : Off the r e cord .
23
(Discus sion off the record .)
24
A On the record. It states in this a rticle that -
25
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2 The article puts me and the DEA as synonymous . The
3 article further states that Weberman believed the DEA
4 burgled Forcade's apartment and the DEA cause d the d e ath
5 of J ack. So if I am, in fact, if I am seen as being part
6 of the DEA, then the inference is I also was part of that.
7 Q Where it says in paragraph 29 tha t the accusa-
8 tions of criminal conduct that you infer from t he art icle
9 were published by the defe ndants -- I believe the word
10 should · read "malice," in that they we re publi shed with
11
  of their falsity or serious doubts as to their
12
truth . Do you intend to allege that The Village Voice,
13 Ryan, Murdoch and Partridge h ave actual malice a nd knew
14
the statements were false or had serious doubts as to
15
their truth?
16
A
Yes , I mean that p a rt. Yes , that is definite .
17
Q As a result of this article you claim in para-
18
graph 30 that you were held up a nd expos ed to p ublic con-
19
tempt.
20
Are you speaking about the a r ticle itself or
21
about some other expos ure to public contempt and scorn and
ridicule that resulte d from the article?
22
23
A That is what I am talking ahout .
24
Q Do you me an by this article or by something
25
else that resulted from the article?
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2 A
I don ' t know what you are t alking about.
3
Q I will rephrase the que stion.
4 Were you saying in paragraph 30 that you were
5 held up a n d e xposed t o public contempt , scorn and r i d icule ?
6 Do you mean by the publicat i on of this article or do you
7 mean t he publication of this article caused some other
8 humiliating event to occur and caused p eople to scorn and
9 condemn you?
10
A
The l atter. The publication of the arti cle
11
caused it.
12
Q From whom did cont empt and scorn and ridicule
13
come?
14
A My contemporaries ; my peers .
15
Q Was the re any particular person that expressed
16
scorn, contempt and r i dicul e , b e s ides the ones you h ave
17
already told us abo ut ?
18
A Numerous people . Enough s o this is a val id
19
paragraph. Maybe ten, f i ft e e n, twenty p e ople .
20
Q Could you give us the n a mes that e xpre s sed that ?
21
A Here in New York City?
22
Q Anywh e re .
A
23
Yes . I can give you names right away , without
any troubl e. Char l es B. Klein, Mr . John Farrell , Carol
24
25
Tacher , and given time , I wi ll come up wi th a list of the s e
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2 people. At t he time of our trial , we wil l   a nd
3 put t h ese people on the stand a nd you will be a ble to
4 cross exami ne them, Mr. Michaels .
5 Q In the same paragraph you c laim you suffered
6 grave and i rreputab le injury a nd s uffered great emotional
7 distress and anguish.
8 Can you t e ll us to what extent you have s u ffered
9
A Wel l, y e s .
I don't have any scale for psychic
10
· da mage.
11
Q Have you found it necessary t o see medi cal
12
or psychiatric t reatment?
13
A No.
14
Q You are   the n about the injury to your
15
feelings?
16
A My emotions . Emotional dist.res s ano anguish.
17
That paragraph stands.
18
Q
'l'he grave a nd irreputable injury to your pro-
19
fess iona l houor that you speak of in that paragraph, is
20
t hat i n your profession as a n outlaw?
21
A In my profession a s a n outlaw and would-be
22
maga zine publ ication, as well as any other ventures I mi ght
be in.
23
Q Paragraph 31 , again , asks for $1 mi llion in
24
25
actual damages a nd a f urther million in punitive damages .
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2 Is that the same million dollars that you l ost or is this
3 a n allegation that you lost a n addit ional million?
4
A
One million is fine with me .
5
Q It is the same million dollars?
6
A Yes.
7
Q Fine . Para graph 36 again claims $1 mi llio n
8
in actual damages a nd $1 million in puni tive damages .
9
Is it the same million that we have a lready
10
heard about ?
11
A
Are we padding this bill? Because if we a re,
12
thi s bill is a million. Do we have to? It is the s ame
13
mi llion.
14
Q At paragraph 38 where you state that the de-
15
fendants acted in a vicious, malicious and intentional
16
manner wi t h the sole purpose of injur ing you, did you mean
17
that to apply to all defe ndant s or only defendant Weberman ?
18
A
I thi nk f or the time being we will let it apply
19
to all defendants until such time -- we will al l ow that
20
because I think that might have been vicious, malicious
21
and intenti ona l , since my beli e f i s they didn ' t have t o
al l ow t hat to be printed and by a llowing that to be printed,
22
they acted in a vicious and malicious and intent ional
23
manne r .
24
Q In paragraph 39, where you request punitive
25
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2 damages in the amount of $3 mil lion , is that duplication
3 of the previous claims for money or is that a separate
4 claim?
5 MR. KAIIN : That is a separate claim.
6
A
That is a separate claim, my lawyer says.
7
Q How was that figure computed?
8
MR. KAHN : Do you want it on t he record?
9
MR. MICHAELS: Yes .
10
MR. KAHN: The fi gure for puniti ve
11
damages does n't have to be computed .
12
Q Mr . Eder, have you given various interviews
13
to reporters concerni ng your history as a n outlaw?
14
A Yes.
15
Q Have you done that with the knowledge that it
16
would result in publication of that . history?
A Yes .
17
18
Q In fact , haven 't you sought the title and
19
identified yourself as Mr . Marijuana?
20
A No , I h ave not identified myself as Mr .
Marijuana .
21
Q Have you ever been called that in print that
22
you know of?
23
A Yes, I have been called ~ l   t in print.
24
Q Were you called that in print by reporters that
25
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2 yo u h a d given informat i o n to vo luntar ily ?
3
A
No. I don't be lieve s o, unless Goldma n may
4 have called me that at some time, but I don't think s o.
5 Q
You have appeare d o n t he front page of New
6 York Magazine?
7 A I was a cover boy.
8 Q Isn't it true your reputation a s a n outlaw
9 produced publicity you felt was bene ficial to you?
10
A Mos t definitely .
11
Q Isn't it true you have admitted many times ,
12
fo r publ ication, your involvement as a n out law in marijuana
13
smuggling v e ntures?
14
A No, that is not t r ue.
15
Q You have spoken out about your f eeling s about
16
the marij uana l aws for publication purposes ?
17
A Most definitely.
18
Q You have done s o with t h e i dea of h e lping to
19
influence the public to take a more rational view with re-
20
gard to the l aw; i s n't t h a t correct?
21
A I will agree with that -.
22
Q Did you ever sell phone fraud d e vice s?
A Yes.
23
Q How many times ?
24
25
A How many times did I sel l them?
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2 Q
Yes .
3
4
A Twenty, fifty . Fifty is a good figure , a p-
proximately.
J
5
Q Did y ou ever warn smuggl ers about Coast Guard
6 inves tigations in order t o help them evade capture ?
7
A That's correct.
8 Q How many t i mes ?
9
A
Every time I ever got the information.
10
Q How many times might that be , approximately?
11
A At l east t e n.
12
Q
Is it true you were n amed and i ndicted as co-
13 conspirator in a recent a rrest of approximately t e n persons
14
in New J ersey on drug charges?
15
A That is not true , to my knowl e dge .
16
Q Have you ever been named and indicted as co-
17
conspirator i n any indictment you know of?
18
A No . May I ask the l ocation in Ne w Jersey?
19
Q Le t's l eave the point for a moment.
20
In fact , in the various times you have spoken
21
to reporters or spoken with the knowl e dge that your words
22
might be publishe d, h aven ' t y ou sou ght to make yourself
23
a public fi gure on the marijuana i ssue?
A No , it just happened that way .
24
25
Q Haven't you sought to make yourself known a s
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2 a n impor tant person in t h e ma r ijua na hus incsses ?
3
A No . In f a ct, I do just the oppos ite. In
4
bo t h a r ticle s that were writte n in NEW YORK MAGAZINE , the
·e
5 exa ct oppos ite of t hat.
6 Q Can you explain what you me an?
7
A Don't have t o . Yo u as ked me a   a nd
8
I ans we red your ques tion . I intended to do t he o ppos ite .
9
The big man is like o ne of the big money g uys. The f irst
10
article a bout New York, we jus t de alt with the New York
11
dope scene on a s mRll l e vel. On the s e cond l evel, we
12
d e alt with s muggling from Col o mbia . It wa s r e ally a n
13
a rticle a bout how ine pt we were in that. I b e lie v e j ust
14
the o pposit e would be the cas e .
15
Q Would you object if any attorney , who f o rmally
16
repr esente d you , had informed that you in fact h a d b e e n a
17
DEA informant? Would you object to that b e ing reve al ed?
18
A Ye s , I would .
19
Q Would y ou a llow de f e ndant Weberman to o btain
20
a ny gover nme nt r ecords t hat may whi c h ma y conce rn
a ny a ctivitie s you might h ave had a s a DEA infor mant?
21
A I will not allow him t he time of day. Ge t it
22
in t he r e cord. Any thing I c a n do towa rd h e l p ing A. J.
23
Webe r man, I will c onsciously avoid doing tha t.
24
Anything e lse?
25
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2
Q
Who represents you in the marijuana conviction
3
which is now on appeal?
4
A Joel -- I'm sorry, I don't remember the guy's
5
last name. I am very bad on last names. It took me three
6
months -- Joel begins with an H.
7
Q Is he associated in any way that you know of
8
with your present attorney?
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
MR. KAHN: Are you referring to me?
MR. MICHAELS: Yes.
MR. KAHN: The answer is no.
A I told you I can get you that. Is that an im-
portant question? Because if it is, I will make a quick
phone call and give you the name.
Q At the start of our examinations today, before
we commenced the formal examination, you told me about a
young lady who said that she --
A That is irrelevant. I am going to answer that
question.
Q I was not about to mention the name.
A You are not going to mention that fact. I am
not going to deal 1·1ith that fact.
Q You told me about a person who had been quoted
as saying they were rich -- had become rich because of their
contact with you. In fact, isn't that true, that there are
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2
many peopl e who have prospered because of their cont<tcts
3
with you ?
4 A Th ere most defi ni tely are because t hat is why
,·e s I don ' t have to worry about maki ng r ~ o r e than $100 , bec<tuse
6
there are many people who have their money today because
7
they knew me . And I introduced them to certain pe ople
8 where they probably made money in the marijuana business .
9
If tha t is the question , the answer is yes .
10
Q I am getting towards the close of the ques tions
11
I have for you.
12
Mr . Eder , you have told us about a great many
13
crimes you have committed, a t least as the law presently
14
defines the kind of behavior we have been discussing .
15
Are yo u aware that your ndmiss ions with regard
16
to those crimes might possibly be the s ubj ect of prosecu-
17
tions of you?
18
A That is right , but it certainl y is not secret
19
a s to the business that I have been in over a period of
20
t ime. I have bee n arrested on n umerous occasions on
  ~ ~
21
marijuana convictions . I have told the J;l.;ltrol Board in the
State of California that I intend to continue in the
22
marijuana game forever or at l east as long as it l asts ,
23
and I have no intention of stopping marijuana and I have
24
no bones , whatsoever -- NEW YORK MAGAZINE had a fu ll page
25
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Eder
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2 illustration tha t showed the p i cture of my head with a
3 joi nt and it state d at the bottom, "Chic's the name a nd
4 smokes the game. "
5
6
7
8
Q
A
Q
A
Did you ever say that?
I say it al l the t i me .
Do you have cards printed that say that?
No , I never had cards printed that said that ,
9
but Albert Gol dman had cards printed that said that.
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Q Did you distribute those cards ?
A Sure .
Q I n fact, you have l e t a lot of peop le know
about these acti vities which the present law says is
criminal?
A There is no secret whatsoever . It happens
that I was two or three years ahead of everybody e l se.
Since the TIMES article two or three weeks
ag.o, with The Colombi an being the h ead articl e , a lot of
peopl e have jumped into what I have. We don 't care what
the government thinks of it . We don't t hink there is any
stigma attached to the business we are invol ved in , and
therefore we don 't care whether the government sees it a s
criminal or not . I believe you wi ll f ind your client ,
A. J. Weberman , fee l s exactly the same way.
Q There are many people who fee l that mari juana
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I:der
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2
l aws shoul d be chanqed and I   a ebate you Rt this
3
time or probably under other c i rcumstances either , but
4
under t he categories of the present law, whn.t you are
e
5
seeking to protect here is your repu tation as a c apable
6
a nd honest criminal, is i t not?
7
A I object to the word " criminal. " I don ' t know
8
what t he present l aw calls for .
9
What I a m stating is , I prefer the word "outlaw"
10
be used , a s opposed t o cri minal. Other t h a n that , my
11
answer --
12
Q But the g i st of the l awsuit , p rime thrust i s
13
by saying you testified, that you instigated a prosecuti o n
14
a nd gave informat i on against Tom Forcade , tha t the d amage
15
that has been done to y ou is the difficulty and the l o sses
16
yo u have sustained as an o utlaw, a s a seller of ma rijuana
A Tha t ' s correct .
17
MR . MICHAELS : Off the r ecord.
18
19
(Di scussion off the record .)
!1R . MICHAELS: On the record .
20
Q Mr . Eder , you told us you a re s eeking a pub l i c
21
forum in which to s how t he allegations in the article about
22
you are i n fa l se ; is tha t t r ue?
23
A That ' s correct .
24
Q You are aware the governme nt usual l y s hields
25
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2 the identity of its informants and the government has a
3 policy of protecting the identity of their informants,
4 are you not?
5 A Yes.
6 Q
In seeking a public forum to discuss this
7 truth or falsity of the allegations about you in the
8 article, are you willing to waive any privilege that you
9 might conceivably have as to the protection to any iden-
10 tification you may ever have·had as an informant?
11
A
When that comes to court, when that gets into
12
court and I put witnesses on the stand, if those witnesses
13
are members of a governmental agency, investigative agency
14
such as DEA and the FBI, and those people are placed on
15
the stand as defense witnesses, then they are open for
16
cross examination and in doing that, I am putting my neck
17
on the chopping block. It is that simple; so?
18
Q Should a guestion come up --
19
A For the record, I wave nothing but the
20
American flag and I only do that on the 4th of July.

21
22
Q Are you therefore claiming the protection of
whatever government policies may exist to shield informants,
23
through the course of this lawsuit?
24
A That is a loaded question. I am not going to
25
answer that question.
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2
Q
Do you c l aim the shel ter given hy law?
3
A
That i s a l o a d e d question . You can r ephrase
4
i t e i ghteen t i mes.
It is a l oaded que stion a nd I am not
5 going t o dea l with i t.
6 Q Are . you c l aimi ng any pr i vi l ege o f the
7
A
That is a l oaded question a nd you can reph rase
8 i t anothe r seventeen t i mes , but more tha n that, you don ' t
9 get . You get seve nteen more reph rases and you wi l l get the
10
same a nswer . I t i s a loaded q uestio n .
11
MR. MICHAELS : Of f t h e record .
12.
( Discussion of f the record .)
13
A On the record .
14
Q
Mr . Eder, i f in fac t there i s some gove rnment
15
record somewhere that what Mr . Weberman sai d in the articl e
16
i s in fact true , are you i ntendi ng t o , through thi s l aws uit,
17
c l a i mi n g it i s not t r u e and us i ng that prot ection of s hi e ld-
18
i n g the name s o f real info rmants ?
19
A That l eaves you sixteen ways of rephrasing t h a t
20
question.
Again, Mr . Mi c h ael s , that is a loaded que stion
21
and as such , I am not goi n g to deal with that questi o n a t
22
this poi nt . So agai n , you h ave s i xteen more rephrases .
23
For t he record , it is now a quarter t o six. We
24
have been h ere since two o' c l ock .
25
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2
Q Do you have any concern there mi ght be any
3 governmental files anywhere that might say you are their
4 governmental informant?

5 A Obviously, since an informant is the one that
6 gives up informat ion, regardless of the connotation of the
7
society, since I have given information on two separate
8 occasions to two governmental bodies, one to each, there
9
is no question whatsoever that somewhere a long the line,
10
we put a guy on the stand and there is a n informant and
11
he informed on this and this and at that time you will h ave
12
a n opportunity to cross examine . If you are asking me to
13
waive any rights , to give this degenerate
14
Q Pointing to Mr. Weberman .
15
A If you are asking me to waive rights and give
16
him the right to get my reports on the
17
Q No , I am not . I think you misunderstand the
18
question . I am asking you whether in fact you intend t o
19
take advantage of the government policy to refuse to
20
identify the rea l names of informants?
21
A You got fifteen, I think, left. That is another
rephrasing of the ques tion .
22
Q ·when you take the stand , do you intend to tell
23
the court that you seek the protection of the secrecy of
24
25
the names of informants while you s u e somebody on your
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2
claim t hat it is not true?
3
A Again, we are dealing with the same thing . This
4
man has stated in print that I testified .before a grand
-
5
jury in Brooklyn. I am not ove rly concerned whether it is
6
a hi gh-level DEA informant. You made the i ssue on this .
7
I already stated to you I informed the DEA , I gave them a
8
piece of information. I traded them for it and you are
9
asking me to go further than that , and I am not willing to
10
go further than that.
11
My contention is I never testified anywh ere in
12
Brooklyn or New Jersey or any other place t h a t you are
13
talking about , and that is the thrust of my contention
14
wi t hin this lawsuit.
15
Q Wil l you allow government o ff icials to testify ,
16
if that is , in fact , yes , you were a n informant in other
17
ways , in other cases besides wha t you have told us today?
18
A I don 't have a choice , i f you cal i these people
t o the stand.
19
20
Q You don 't claim any protection?
A I didn ' t say that and you are tryins the same
21
thing agai n, Michaels .
22
Of f the record .
23
(Discussion off the record. )
24
MR . MICHAELS : On the record, p l eas e.
25
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2
Q Mr . Eder , in those limite d inst.1nc e s where
3
you did provide information t o the FBI and DEA, whi ch you
4
h.:ive told us abont , <lo you heJi e ve that informat ion was
..
s
helpful to the FBI and the DEA?
6
A Yes , I mos t definitely believe it WQS helpful
7
to t he FBI and the DEA . However --
8
Q Did that he l p mainta i n the integrity of their
9
and secnri ty systems ?
10
A Only the secu r ity systems , Rnd my contention is
11
that in no way jeopardized my standi ng a s outl aw, simply
12
because in pri son pnr l ance , a " rat " o r "informant" is one
13
who takes advantage of getting out of doing jail time by
14
putting some one else in that cage in his place , so my deal-
15
ing with the government was without hurting another humHn
16
being . I don ' t feel I deserve the reputation of bein9 a
rat .
17
18
Does   your question?
Q It is a n answer to the question .
19
20
If you bc-1 i eve tha t yonr ,.1ork for the g over nment
h e l ped t o protect security o f   information i n
21
dealings with criminal prosecuti ons , is it not true the
22
hel p you p rovided probahly resulted in people being jailed?
23
A No . Most definitely not . help I provided ,
24
agai n , was in tel ling - - are you speak ing of the FRI or the
25
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115
2 drug enforcement agencies?
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Q
Both.
A
The Federal Bureau of Investigation presented
leaks in the national security system. Since I had the
ability to tap the FBI's phone, I had the same ability to
tap any government phone in that area, hased on the way
they were doing things at that point in time.
'rhe second thing was that certainly wouldn't
have led to the arrest or conviction of any human being.
The second thing with regard to the Drug Enforcement Ad-
ministration, the Drug Enforcement Administration doesn't
like a lot of things I do. You broughtup the point of
warning the ships. I have done that on numerous occasions.
The government is very upset about   t ~ They didn't get --
They didn't get any positive convictions out of anything
that I told them. What they did get, the furthest you
could possibly stretch my help to the government is I might
have been able to give this information as to how to plug
in the computers to somebody who it might have helped them
to avoid capture. This is the furthest you could possibly
stretch the damage I would have done to another outlaw.
Q The damage to another outlaw, even if you had
not given a name, that resulted in immediately and directly
in an arrest; isn't that true? The assistance you provided
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2 probabl y h e l ped the efficiency of the l aw e n forcement
3 agenci e s by t hose a gen cies that some people were a rres ted
4 that otherwi se would not have been arreste<l?
5
A Absolute l y not .
6 Q Wh ere d id you get the lis t of wa nte d s hi p s
7 whi c h I think you calle d a hot s heet? Where did you get
8 the list?
9
A Which one? I can state very simpl y that o n a t
10
l east ten times I have gotten ten l ists.
11
Q From whom?
12
A From various sources .
13
Q From whom?
14
A From various sour ces. That is an answer to
15
t he question.
16
Q Are you wil l ing t o identify t he sources?
17
A I am unwilling to identify any of the source s.
18
MR . KAHN : Off the rec6rd .
19
(Di s cussion o f f the record.)
20
MR. MICHAELS : Back on the record .
Q Go ahead .
21
A I am l ost .
22
Q Are you declining to answe r t he quest i o n?
23
A What question?
24
Q The ques tion is, wo uld you p l ease tel l us the
25
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2
people from whom you got the lists of h o t ships , of wante d
3
s hips?
4 A Of course not.
e
5 Q Thank you.
6 A No, not " thank you." Let me compl e te my answer
7
to the question . Of course, any person who stole
these
8
are gener al ly teletype that were teletyped to various Coast
9
Guards and sometime s a full hot s heet, and a t any time a ny-
10
bo dy gave me that infor ma tion, a lot of people were working
11
f or t he government a nd there were kids that worked for the
12
Coast Gua rd and peop le who worked in governme nt a gencies
13
for which we paid for these hot shee ts . Of course we
14
couldn 't t e ll you that .
15
MR. MICHAELS : Subject to my cl i ent 's
16
approval , I have complete d my examina t ion . I \vant
17
to tha nk Mr. Kahn , our r eporter , and Mr. Eder, as
18
·well.
19
Q Mr. Eder, our concluding quest i ons are as
follows :
20
21
Had you read the c ompla int in this case p rior
to today?
22
A I'm sorry , no.
23
Q Do you know whe the r your attorney in t his
24
matter ever previously represented Mr . Thomas Forcade or
25
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2 any of his busines s ventures?
3
A You h ave to depose my attorney.
4 Q
I am asking whether you have any knowledge .
5
I am not asking you the fact .
6 A Whether I have any knowled0e?
7
Q Do you know whether your present attorney , Mr .
8
Kahn , sitting next to you , ever previously rcpres cm ted Mr.
9
Forcade or his business ve ntures?
10
A I believe he may h ave been representing
11
Transhigh Corporation somewh ere along the line.
I don ' t
12
know if he ever represented Tom personally.
13
Q Do you know how that relationship t e rminate d?
14
A I have no idea. I don ' t even know if it has
15
terminated .
16
Q At my client's request , I want to ask one fina l
17
question , which is whether you discussed this matter 't>'li th
18
your attorney before t ~ e complaint was drawn , whe the r yo u
19
informed him tha t you saw the princi pal dama0e to your
20
r e putation as the damage to your re::>u·ta ti o n as t o ·what you
call an outlaw?
e
21
A I think ~ ~   t I said to my attorney was this was
22
a malicious attack by A. J . Weberman and these peopl e should
23
have known it was a malicious attack by Nebernan . They
24
should have checked the verac ity of the statement that I
25
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2 tes tified b e fore a grand jury and I said I want to s ue him
3 a nd he said, " I don ' t t hink it would take too much time .
4 Sure I wil l help you . " That ' s i t .
5 Q
You did not in fact discuss with him what are a
6 of your reputation, that is, your r e putation as an outla w,
7 which you felt was a principal
8
A That is privileged communication what I discus s e
9 with my attor ney .
10
Q
At my clie nt.' s request , do you know of the
11
reason why the att o r ney is repre senting you without com-
12
pensation?
13
A Why don' t you ask my attorney?
14
Q I am a sking you if you know.
15
A I have no idea . I think perhaps he likes me .
16
Despite the fact that I am an outlaw, I think he likes me.
17
EXAMINATION BY MR . KAHN :
18
Q
In the course of the de position we have d is-
19
cussed the stateme nt in the November 27, 1978 Villa ge Voice
20
a rticle by Mr . We ber man that Chic Ede r wa s a h i ~ h   l e v e l
DEA informant .
21
Would you please t e l l me wha t " informant"
22
g e nerally mea ns or what you understa nd the word "informant "
23
to mean?
24
A What I unde rstand the word "informa nt" t o mean ,
25
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2
since the ma jority of my adult life was s p e nt in prison
3 situations , my terminology of "informant" is one who trades
4 his cage , trades, gives up his cage -- let me rephrase
e
5
tha t - - is one who gets out of a cage by putting a nother
6
ma n in t he cage in his pl ace , and I ha ve never done that
7 and I never i n tend to do t hat.
8 Q Is the term "cop" sometimes trea t e d s ynonymous l y
9 in your understa nding, with t he word "infor mant"?
10
A Erroneous ly. Again , my parlance is based
11
primar ily on prison . A cop is a cop and a rat is a rat .
12
They are t wo separate a nd distinct e ntities .
13
Q Looking at the article we are dis cussing , I
14
am calling your atte ntion t o a c ouple of sentences that
15
say , '\ery few other people wo uld he lp Tom. Rubin and Tom
16
had called me a cop . Rubin a nd Hoffman had called him a
17
cop during the yippe e- zi ppy confli c t in Miami , a nd that
18
l abel s tuck . Eventually both Abby and .._l'erry admi tted t his
19
was t:he wr ong t hing to do. "
20
A I cannot a n swer for A. J. Weberman 's wr iti ng ,
21
s ince I didn't write that . A. J. Weber.man - - at no time,
22
t o my knowledge , was Tom accused of being a cop. He was
23
a ccused of b e ing a n agent , of be ing an info r mant and
24
a ccused of working for the intelligence community.
25
At no t ime in my knowl e dge was he ever accu sed
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2 of being a cop.
3
Q Does the word " informant " in t he sense t h a t
4 you understand it , have a very negati ve connotat ion?
5 A About as negative a s you c a n get .
6 Q Would you say it also is a negati ve connota tion
7 among your fr i e nds , fami ly and busines s a ssoci ates ?
8
A The wor d "infor mant" i s not only amongst the
9 rat, s omeone who betrays the t r ust of his peers, it is
10
l ooked upon as a piranha by our society. We are dealing
11
with go ing al l t he way t o Juda s a nd J esus , right up to the
12
  whi c h was later redone with bl acks not too many
13
years ago on every l evel in t he society , e xcept f or possihly
14
a few of the newer cop shows i n which a pimp rat , who is
15
looked upon as a hero. In most l evel s of s ocie ty, in-
16
formant is looked upon as a l ow li f e.
17
Q Is the word "i nformant" synonymous wi t h t he
18
word
11
snitch
11
?
19
A Mos t definitely.
20
Q paragraph: " Recent l y Rick Nemay , in-
21
formant , FBI , snake , who inf iltrate d the zip pies and c a me
doi n g a book for Quadrangl e Press about his experiences ,
24
refused to hel p frame him.
11
25
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2 In regard to t hat paragraph, hy contrast of
3 t he paragraph in which your name was mentioned , what d id
4 t h a t suggest t o you?
5 A It suggested to me he was a good guy and not
6 a rat and I was a bad guy and a rat . In this case , tha t
7 is what it s u gges ts to me .
8 Taking the articl e as a whole , looking a t that
9 paragraph and ·che paragraph about me, one is the good guy
10 a nd one is the bad guy .
11
Q You test ified that you had given v ery limited
l2 i nformat ion to t he FBI in 1975. Have you g i ve n information
13 to t he FBI in the years subsequent to 1975?
14
A Let me deal with that. I ha ve wor k ed once
15
with the FBI and I stated at which time I worked wi t h them.
16
And I worked with t he ones with t he Drug Enforce ment Ad-
17
mi ni stration and t hat's it , b aby .
18
Q
Wi t h r e spect to the Drug Enforce me nt Adminis-
19
tra tion wi t h which you made your arrangement in 1 976 , h a ve
20
you give n them a ny furthe r information in 1977 , 1 978 o r
21
1979?
A I had no contact wh a tsoe ver .
22
23
Q At t h e time this articl e refers to , whe n it
24
r e fers to your name in 1977 , it i s the r e fore the case that
25
you were not de aling with or giving a ny inf o rma tio n wh a t-
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2 soever t o t he DEA at that t i me ?
3
A
Tha t i s cor r ect .
4
Q
I n c ommon parla nc e , t h e wo r d " i n forma nt," i s
5 tha t gen e ral l y unde rstood t o mea n s omeone who mer e l y g i v e s
6 some i nformat i on a bout the tec hni c a l da ta , s uch a s you gave ,
7 or i s it more surely und e rstood t o mea n a s nitc h of r a t
8 tha t turns o n s ome speci f ic - -
9
A I n gene·cal , i n a societ y i n gene ral , U1e wo r d
10
" informant ," if it i s not used in a c r i mi na l comp l aint , has-
11
it is not a devil word .
It is not a d e v il word i f yo u say ,
12
" I ha ve a n i nfor ma nt who tells me t h a t if I go into the
13
bu siness in Ha i t i t omorr ow, I am goi ng to ma ke a l o t o f
14
mone y ." That i s a n info r ma nt who gi ve s that informa t ion.
15
As we know it wi t h i n the str ucture of t h e
16
s ocie ty i n wh ich I live a nd t ha t is no t only the peo p le
17
who a re enga ged i n outlaw a cti viti e s b ut p eop l e I know
18
s oci a l l y a nd personally , t h e word " informan t" i s a bo ut a s
19
low a word , it ' s a bout a s dero gatory a nd pejorative a wor d
20
a s yo u c a n use agains t a human b e ing .
Q Is t ha t because it is t rea t 8d as meaning y ou
21
gi ve informati o n
1
a bo ut a nothe r h uman being t h a t caused his
22
a rres t?
23
A No, it ' s b e cau se i t is t rea ted , trading y o ur
24
c age with ano t h e r man , p utting another man i n a c age s o
25
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2 you don ' t h ave to go into a caqe.
3
Q Whe n you r e ad the article by Mr . We b e rman , did
4 you understand that to mean he was stating or implying you
s gave information to a grand jury with r e spect t o Forc a de
6 for the purpose of putting him in a c a ge and keeping you
7 out?
8
A Exactly . He says that I gave testimony b e fore
9 a grand j ury in Brooklyn in the year 1977 . This is a lie.
10
That is. the whole crux of my c ase . All the r e st of what
11
is be ing state d is great be tween l awyers , but my case is
12
very s i mply that this man has said that I t e stifi e d before
13
a grand jury against another human being a nd I n e ver <lid
14
t his . And I f e e l he did this ma licious l y and with the
15
intent ion of trying to hurt me . Th i s is my wa y of e xpress-
16
ing this lawsuit .
17
Q
Do you ha ve a ny inkling a s to why Mr . We berma n
18
bears a ny f eeling of ma lice , hos tility t owards yo u in-
19
dividually?
20
MR. MICHAELS:   As k e d a nd
an swer e d. Didn't we view t h a t speci f ic a llegatio n ?
21
MR. KAHN : I do n ' t r eca ll t h a t you asked
22
him.
23
Q I n addition to the spe cific a llega tion tha t wa s
24
ma de by you a bo ut Mr. Weber rnan , do you ha ve a ny t hing more ?
25
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2 A Yes, I think the re is more .
3
Q
I would like to know if there is anything e lse .
r 7
4
A He says it right in his articl e . Ile says in
5
the article He says he was so angry about Tom's death
6 that he lashed out at e ver yone . I think that appears in
7 the article , the exact words: "I b egan to blame anyone
8 that was h andy for his demise . " Those were his words .
9
What I am s aying is , as well as the ma lice ,
10
I am saying he was very loyal to Forcade , whether he was
11
misdirected or not. He was l oyal to Forca de a nd disliked
12
me because I was giving him my prices in New York on smoke
13
and he was making a living and then I stopped doing that .
14
For those two r e asons , for the reason he fe lt
15
I cut him off from his suppl y of material was one, and the
16
second one was a sense of loyalty t o Forcade . I fee l he
17
c ame out in print and stated this a nd other people were
18
whispering behind doors that I was unlucky t o be the guy .
19
He took a shot at me because he was malicious about it.
20
He was going t o grandstand . In prison parlance, that is
.e
21
cal l e d prison grandstanding . You had your day , b a by, now
it ' s mine .
22
Q With respect to the maga zine you proposed t o
23
publ i s h, you indicated you sought to employ a woma n who
24
declined to work for you as a result of this article?
25
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A That 's correct .
3
Q Were there a ny other persons , to your knowl edge ,
4
that declined to work fo r you on t his pro j ect as a result
 
5
of tJ1e publication of t his articl e ?
6
A Yes .
7
Q Would you tell us who they were ?
8
A Paul Kras ner , Sally Ma r , a lthough Sally, I con-
9
vinced h e r t h at was not the case . There have been othe r
10
people , yes .
11
MR . KAHN : That is a ll I have .
12
MR. MICHAELS : I will be brief o n re-
13
d irect .
14
EXAMINATION BY MR. MICHAELS:
15
Q You have seen governmental agency reports a t
16
times, have you not?
A I have.
17
18
Q Investigati ve reports , that sort of thing?
A I have .
19
20
Q You are aware the informant is ofte n use d as
a n informa nt who gi ves specific i nfor mation even though
21
they are not trading a cage fo r another person's incarcera-
22
t ion?
23
A Yes , they have paid i n forma nts that do it for
24
othe r reasons . There ' s a lways some game for the informant .
25
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2 It is e i ther reve nge , monetary gain or tra d ing a cage with
3
another hwnan being. It is one of those three t h ings.
4
Q In f act , didn't you want revenge against Tom
S Forcade he cause you bel ieved he stole mone y and mari j uana
6 f rom you?
7
A Let's deal with that . At t he time the people
8 within the government, who wante d me t o testify agains t
9 Forca de
10
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12
13
14
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21
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25
Q
A
Who were they , in addition to Mr. Newgarten?
Whoever Mr. Newgarten works wi th down there.
With regard to tha t, that took place many, many months ,
possibly a year before I even knew Forcade ha d be a t me
out of 5 0 pounds . So at the time that took p l ace , no.
Q By 1977 you knew about the thef t of y our
marijua na?
A I believe it was in April. I am pretty sure
it was in April. Either '76 or '77 that I f ound out a bout
it.
Q
During s ometi me , during 1 97 7, in fact , you
l earned about it a nd didn't you want revenge agains t Tom
Forcade?
. •
A I rece i ved al l t h e revenge I needed. I took
my fifty pounds back , with i nterest .
Q Fr om where?
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2 A
From a transaction Forca de and I we re invol ved
3 in.
4
Q
What location?
5
A Florida.
6
Q With his permission?
7
A
He didn 't have a choice.
I said, you know,
8 "Man, I'm taking this . What do you want to do?" He didn' t
9 wa nt to do nothing. He knew. There was a man in the room.
10
He said, "Tom, you beat him for his money ." I took fifty
11
a nd fifty more to make up for the interest and t ook one
12
hundred pounds from him in fro nt of his face.
I told him
l3 I wa s taking this . It was that simple.
14
Q The two of you were alone at the time?
15
A Me a nd Tom.
16
Q
Who else was prese nt?
17
A
I wouldn't give you that infor mation .
18
Q Was a ny weapon in t he room?
19
A
Tom had a .45 in his belt .
20
Q Any o ·the rs ?
21
A Not to my knowle dge .
22
Q Did you hav e a ny weapons ?
23
A I don't carry a gun .
24
Q Did you have any weapon?
25
A No, I don't carry a gun .
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2
Q How wa s it that he ha d a gun and you had no
3 weapon a t a ll a nd that you were able to simply say to
4 him,
11
I am t aking it,
11
and walk out with something value d,
5 I t hink you said , about $20,000?
6
A That ' s what it would be val ued out, twenty
7 t housand.
8
Q
What was it, force of personality, hypnotic s?
9
A Ne ithe r . You are facetious .
10
Q
Yes , I apologi ze .
11
A What h appens in t his business is we know the
12
difference between right and wrong . I was in a position to
13
confront this man wi t h r egard t o his having cheate d me o n
14
a n earlier run. I was working at the time of being cheated.
15
I wa s working fo r Torn Forcade . I was not his part ner. I
16
was still working for him and he was supposed t o have paid
17
me $50 , 000 or 200 , 000 pounds of marijuana . Instead of
18
paying me 1 50,000 pounds of marij uana , later , just prior
19
to thi s busines s arrangement going down where I wa s Tom's
20
partner at t his t i me , just prior to it going down, I got
t he information ahout his h aving be at me for the fifty
21
pounds , s o I went t o other people in the g a ng and asked
22
did this ~ e   l l y take place . I got the information that it
23
had . I confronted Tom with the informa tion tha t he had
24
beat me for the fifty . He agreed he ha d beat me for the
25
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2 fifty. I t o ld him, " I' JT1 t.:1king the fifty and I' rn taking
3 anothe r f i fty ," be cause he was a fake . He was carrying a
4 gun but he h a d no choice because the othe r guy was in t he
5 room. He said, "Man, you CJOt no choice . You bus ted him."
6 He c arri ed a gun. Tom Forcade a l s o pulle d a gun o n me
7 during the same operation. He pulle d a gun .
8 Q There was a period of t i me t h at you were a ngry
9 with Forcade and though t about revenge but had not resol ved
10 the problem, was there not?
11
A No, because I was -- couldn 't have b e e n more
12 than a day- and- a - half, two days from t he time I found out
13 about it to the time I took my material back .
14
Q Within the l ast year , have you t esti fied in a ny
15
court of l aw wher e the jury or judge accepted your word?
16
A I h ave not testifie d in a court o f l a w i n a ny
17
case , other t ha n my cas e , t o the bes t of my knowledge . I
18
cannot ever remembe r ever being cal led . Maybe I was once ,
19
in Califor nia . I have never testified aga i ns t anyone in
20
any case anywhere in the world a t any t i me .
21
Q No judge- or jury whi c h ever received your ~ o r  
in court?
22
23
A There i s no judg e or a ny jury -- I don ' t k now
24
that . There are judges and juries who have accepted my
25
word in cour t, when I defended myself. Let me try the
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2
sta t ement again. At no t ime in my 48 y ears , i n my
3 exist e nce , have I e v e r testifie d a gainst any person i n
4 a ny c r iminal p rocedure ; is that clear? Th a t i s p r e tty
5 b r oad . That is 48 y ears of it . Doe s that a nswer your
6
q uestio n? I ha ve t e stifie d in my own cases.
7 Q How many time s was y our word accepted in your
8 own cas e s?
9
MR. I<AHN : I obj e ct to that. One n e ver
10
knows -- How d oes o ne know the b asis of how it is
11
accepted at the trial?
12
Q In t hos e case s you t es tifie d , the c ases in
13
v-1h i c h the jury convicte d you of c r ime s
14
MR. KA HN : I o b j ect to t h a t. You don 't
15
know if oth e r testimony or evidence wa s in t h e case
16
and you don ' t know the jur y ' s basis f or wh a t t he
17
decisio n was.
18
Q Ha ve you testifie d in your own behalf?
19
A In whi c h the jury be lieved me?
20
Q Whic h i n f act res ul ted in your being c o nvi cte d
e
21
of a crime .
22
A Both . I h a ve n e v e r testif i e d i n c a ses d e a l ing
23
with o ther people ; that i s No . 1 . Le t's get tha t s t r a i ght
24
a gain, f rom t he jump.
25
Q I und e r stand your positio n .
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Eder
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A Whe n I ha ve t estifie d i n my own cases , I h a.ve
3 won some and l ost some .
4
Q Tha nk you .
5
A When I have charges agri ins t me and t he j ury
6 comes in and acquits o n e ight a nd convicts o n two , I assume
7 t he jury mus t h a ve believed me on the e i ght .
8
Q As a fina l q uestion, is it your belie f that t he
9
stat ement s you have made today would be deemed dero gatory
10
by your fr i e nds , associ ates and bus i ness companions?.
11
A Between the time t hat t he inf o rmati on a s t o
12
my worki ng wi t h t he go vernment became p ubl ic and today?
13
Q You were r e f erring to t he f i r st time it wa s
14
ma de public i n HI GH TIMES MAGAZINE in 1 977?
15
A Pr ior t o a ny p ub lic a t i on, when I said "made
16
public," I meant by a par t of wher e i t was known , wh ere this
17
information
18
Q You are speaki ng about 1977, not the arti c le?
19
A I ' m s peaking wi t h a year- a nd-a - ha lf ago . From
20
that time o n, I had t o expend a tremendous amount o f energy
21
wi t h a l o t of people in telling t h e m wha t actua lly took
p l ace . There wer e those peopl e that believed t h a t I was
22
telling them the t ruth and cont i n ue d ther efo re to do
23
bus i ness wi t h me .
24
Q Out l aw business ?
25
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Eder 1 33
2 A
Outlaw busi ne ss a nd l egi t i ma t e inl aw bus iness.
3 n nd they continued t o do busine ss with me followi n g this .
4 And t he re were some p eople who felt they didn ' t want to do
5 bus ine ss with me after that.
6 However , up until the point of A. J . We herrnan's
7 a rticle appe a r ing in this Village Voice , I had nothing to
8 put my t eeth into . A. J . Webe rman has made a statement .
9 He has said I am a governme nt informant who t estifie d in
10
1977 befor e a Brooklyn gr and jury . That did not take place.
11
Oka y? All I an1 saying is, if this took pla ce, l e t me be
12
a rat in public . Let him come into court a nd state it
13 took pla ce.
14
Q
Mr . Ede r, in the various times you have s poke n
15
with repor t e rs a nd journalis ts or write rs, wh ere you k new
16
you had the opportunity to address the public a bout your
17
career in history , did yo u ever t ake the o ppo rtunity to
18
de ny the alle ga tion made by HI GH TIMES MAGAZI NE a nd t.he
19
a t t or ney, Michael Kennedy , in 1977 t ha t you were a D<1J·c otic
20
info rma nt?
A
21
I have not b e en intervi ewed by any p ublication
s ince t h a t took pla ce.
Doe s that answe r your question?
22
Q Have you done a nything t o s eek t he opportunity
23
to de ny t he a llegation made a t tha t time by thos e parti e s?
. 24
A No , b eca use I di dn ' t know wh a t t he recou rses
25
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Eder 134
were o f fered to me a t the time.
At t he t i me I was too punchy , is the r i ght
word , h aving this thing h appen to me , t o take effective
a n effective counter attack . At t his t ime I have a n
atto r ney who is willing to make a n effective counterattack
a nd for the record , unti l s uch a time , unti l I came in this
o ff ice , I hadn ' t thought about suing HIGH TIMES and Michael
Kennedy , but I a m now .
Does t h a t answer your ques tio n?
Q Is it therefore true , in fact , you never denied
that a llegation or sought any o pportunity to deny it?
A I mos t certa inly did deny this allega tio n.
Q To whom?
A To everyb ody I c ame across , t ncluding Tom
Forcade , and a t one time t here was a situation whe r e Forcade
  t o meet with me with regard to this , a nd is a
person i n New Yor k City pos sibly who mi ght be abl e t o
t es t i fy to that . Again, I cannot give this pers on ' s name
unti l I have spoken to him.
tions .
MR. MICHAELS :
I have no further q u es-
MR . KAHN : I have no further que stions .
(Time noted : _6 : 3 0 p.m.)
Subscribe d and sworn to before me
this day of 1979.
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135
C E R T I F I C A T E
STATE OF NEW YORK )
SS
COUNTY OF NEW YORI< )
I, SHARYN L . BAMBER, a Shorthand Repo r t e r
and Notary Public within and for the State of
Ne w York, do hereby certify:
That ·cHIC EDER , t he wi t n ess \·1hose
tion is herein.be for e s8t forth , ·was •-1. ul • . .r
sworn by me a nd t hat such is R true
r eco r d of the t estimony give n by s uc h
I f urther cer tify that 1 <:rn rio t r n l n. t .-; rl
to any of the par ties to this a ction by b J O( •d
marriag e , and that I a m in no way
in the outc ome of this matter .
my
IN \--2: h a ve reunto s et
h a nd t.h is _ _t _. _ _ da y   1979 .
B LI TZ REPORTI NG CO.
1 5 P A RK R O W. N .Y. 1 0 038 PHONES: 3 4 9-3 1 0 8 - 9