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1 CHRIS FORD, ESQ.

, SBN 029437 LAW OFFICE OF CHRIS FORD 2 125 East Coronado Road 3 Phoenix, AZ 85004 t: 602-688-5571 4 f: 888-447-3714 5 cford@azbar.org 6 Attorneys for Plaintiffs, 7 JOSE ROBERTO SOTO, MARIA SALAZAR, MAYRA MIRANDA 8 9 10 11 SALAZAR, MAYRA DISCUA MINRANDA, 12 13 14
v. LEAGUE OF UNITED LATIN JOSE ROBERTO SOTO, MARIA Case No. CV2013-008731 AFFIDAVIT OF CHRIS FORD, ESQ. IN SUPPORT OF PLAINTIFFS’ CLOSING ARGUMENT Assigned to: Hon. Michael Herrod

IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF ARIZONA FOR THE COUNTY OF MARICOPA

Plaintiffs,

15 AMERICAN CITIZENS, ARIZONA CHAPTER (LULAC); JOHN MIRELES, 16 in his capacity as an officer of LULAC, 17 in his capacity as executive director of LULAC, Arizona Chapter; ANA 18 VALENZUELA, in her capacity as
national vice-president for youth for

Arizona Chapter; DAVID HERNANDEZ,

19 LULAC; MARI ALVARADO, in her capacity as president, LULAC Council # 20 1083; DOES 1-20, 21 22 23 I, CHRIS FORD, ESQ., first being sworn, declare: 24
1. I am an attorney admitted to practice before this Court and represent Plaintiffs Defendants.

25 herein. Except where expressly noted, I have personal knowledge of the following facts and, if 26 called as a witness, could competently testify as to their truth. As to statements made on 27 information and belief, I believe them to be true. 28
2. I make this affidavit in support of Plaintiffs’ Closing Argument, submitted
AFFIDAVIT OF CHRIS FORD, ESQ. IN SUPPORT PLAINTIFFS’ CLOSING ARGUMENT Page 1 of 2
Law Office of Chris Ford 125 East Coronado Road Phoenix, AZ, 85004 602-688-5571

1 herewith. 2
3. Attached hereto is as Exhibit A is a true and correct copy of the Transcript of

3 Evidentiary Hearing held in this matter on Jan. 16, 2014, received by my office from Amy E. 4 Weaver, TruAudio Transcribers, LLC. 5
4. Attached hereto is as Exhibit B is a true and correct copy of the Transcript of

6 Evidentiary Hearing held in this matter on Feb. 12, 2014, received by my office from Amy E. 7 Weaver, TruAudio Transcribers, LLC. 8 9 11 12 13 14 ORIGINAL of the foregoing 15
Clerk of the Court E-FILED this 28th day of March, 2014 with: ___/s/ Chris Ford____________ Chris Ford, Esq. I declare under penalty of perjury under the laws of the state of Arizona that the foregoing

10 is true and correct and was executed this 28th day of March, 2014 at Phoenix, Arizona

16 Maricopa County Superior Court 17 Phoenix, Arizona 85003 18 19
201 West Jefferson

FOR Hon. Judge Michael Herrod COPY of the foregoing E-MAILED

20 this this 28th day of March, 2014 to: 21 Anthony Guajardo 22 Counsel for defendants 23 24 25 26 27 28
Law Office of Chris Ford 125 East Coronado Road Phoenix, AZ, 85004 602-688-5571

Fax: 602-957-0801

__/s Chris Ford__________ By: Chris Ford

AFFIDAVIT OF CHRIS FORD, ESQ. IN SUPPORT PLAINTIFFS’ CLOSING ARGUMENT

Page 2 of 2

Exhibit A

IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF ARIZONA IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF MARICOPA ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) )

JOSE ROBERTO SOTO, et al., Plaintiffs, vs.

CV 2013-008731

LEAGUE OF UNITED LATIN AMERICAN CITIZENS ARIZONA CHAPTER, et al. Defendants.

BEFORE THE HONORABLE MICHAEL J. HERROD SUPERIOR COURT JUDGE EVIDENTIARY HEARING (Transcribed from Audio Recording) Phoenix, Arizona 01/16/2014

TruAudio Transcribers, LLC 40 North Central Avenue #1400 Phoenix, Arizona 85004 480.227.4077 www.TAtrans.com

Prepared by: Amy E. Weaver Arizona CR No. 50462

EVIDENTIARY HEARING - JANUARY 16, 2014

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 For Plaintiffs:

A P P E A R A N C E S

Christopher B. Ford For Defendants: T. Anthony Guajardo

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SOCORRO ESQUIVEL

INDEX OF EXAMINATIONS PAGE

Direct Examination by Mr. Ford Cross-Examination by Mr. Guajardo Redirect Examination by Mr. Ford

17 66 102

JOSE ROBERTO SOTO
Direct Examination by Mr. Ford Cross-Examination by Mr. Guajardo Redirect Examination by Mr. Ford Recross-Examination by Mr. Guajardo Further Redirect Examination by Mr. Ford 109 148 171 189 208

SANDRA CORDERO-DESOTO
Direct Examination by Mr. Ford Cross-Examination by Mr. Guajardo Redirect Examination by Mr. Ford: Recross-Examination by Mr. Guajardo Redirect Examination by Mr. Ford 218 226 232 241 243

JOSEPH CORDERO
Direct Examination by Mr. Ford Cross-Examination by Mr. Guajardo Redirect Examination by Mr. Ford Recross-Examination by Mr. Guajardo 244 262 267 268

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P R O C E E D I N G S Phoenix, Arizona 01/16/2014 9:33 a.m. THE COURT: We're on the record in Can I have

CV 2013-008731, Soto versus LULAC. appearances, please. MR. FORD: the plaintiffs. MR. GUAJARDO:

Yes, Your Honor.

Chris Ford for

Tony Guajardo, Your Honor,

for LULAC defendants and all the defendants. THE COURT: evidentiary hearing. Mr. Ford, are you ready? MR. FORD: THE COURT: Yes, sir. Mr. Guajardo, are you ready? Ready, Your Honor. You may proceed. This is the time set for

MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT: MR. FORD:

Okay.

Thank you, Your Honor.

This case at its essence, if not necessarily its details, is fairly simple. It's a case about power.

And it's a case about a group of people who are and have been in power, and it's a case about a group of people clinging to power. And the way in which they've clung to

power is -- has brought up issues as to why we're here in court today.
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We'll present evidence today that defendants, as has been -- it's been stated in the pleadings, they hatched and carried out a plan to prevent certain members of LULAC, certain councils in LULAC from voting in the convention in Arizona. The Court may recall there are two conventions that are sort of at issue: one in Arizona,

which is the LULAC state convention held on the 8th of June 2013; and then the national convention in Las Vegas, Nevada, where the -- and the voting for -- during that convention is held on the 22nd of June of 2013. MR. GUAJARDO: Your Honor, I'm not sure

whether we're trying the case or this is class certification. case. MR. FORD: THE COURT: This -Well -I'm not sure how -Counsel is going into the merits of the

MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT:

What we're set for -- what we're

set for today is evidentiary hearing on the merits of the case. point. MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT: Okay. I was going to address class certification at some

Mr. Ford, are you going to the

merits, or are you going to class certification?
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 so --

MR. FORD:

I was going to essentially a very

brief summary of the merits and then we can bring on the -THE COURT: And, Mr. Guajardo, I haven't

seen a response to class certification, so I haven't addressed it yet. MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT: response or not. MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT: I did, Your Honor. I haven't seen it yet, Okay.

I don't know if you filed a

Okay.

MR. GUAJARDO: MR. FORD: aware of any response. be a ruling on that.

Oh, okay. I'm not

Your Honor, nor have I.

And I was wondering if there would But if he's responding, then I guess

we can go through that process, as well. THE COURT: MR. FORD: Okay. You may proceed.

Thank you.

In any case, among the things the defendants have done is they -- first of all, essentially we'll show they actively plotted and planned to do the things we've -- we've charged them with doing. They -- for

example, with respect to people they perceive to be favorable to them in terms of the voting, they would waive
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or allow -- waive credentialing rules or allow people to breeze through the process without going through necessarily every single formality, whereas they use those formalities as a shield essentially to prevent other members in good standing from voting in Arizona. The same thing basically happened in Las Vegas, as well, where they presented -- prevented, excuse me -- by our best count, approximately 147 Arizona members from voting in that election from the Phoenix area and another 18 or so from Tucson. They engaged in favoritism. They gave out

money and financial support to, again, perceived allies politically. They -- when regard -- when the voters --

the members in the national convention were prevented from registering and being credentialed -- as the court may recall, it's sort of a two-step process -- they cut off avenues of appeal, and they used so-called legal opinions to justify excluding voters. And finally, they engaged in some processes that I -- we don't really see envisioned in the group's constitution or bylaws, which is one is what I refer to as delegate transferring, which is basically attempting to take delegates -- in my understanding, when there is a vote coming up, they have delegates from these different councils; and they have alternates, which would be I guess
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if a delegate gets sick or unavailable, the alternate would step in. What defendants wanted to do is take the alternates, shift them to other councils that didn't have enough delegates, and those councils being ones they're sure or I guess they're perceived to be favorable to them. And they kind of bolster those other councils' ranks so they can boost the numbers of voters who will be voting for them by these fraudulent means. They also used a process called -- our witnesses will testify they used a process called stand-up voting wherein it's my understanding people -- they -they simply say, "All in favor stand up." stand up." "All opposed

And they just sort of estimate who won. So it's a process that, at best, is fraught

with concerns about errors and manipulations.

But, more

importantly, not to our knowledge contemplated in the LULAC bylaws or constitution. Excuse me a moment. THE COURT: MR. FORD: call their first witness. THE COURT: have an opening statement? MR. GUAJARDO: [ Inaudible ]. All right. Mr. Guajardo, do you Sure. Okay. Plaintiffs are ready to

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 statement?

THE COURT:

No opening? I'm sorry?

MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT:

Do you have an opening

MR. GUAJARDO: address the comments.

Yes, Your Honor.

I'd like to

First of all, it seems that the constitution and bylaws are controlling in this case, the constitution and bylaws of the League being the supreme authority. fact, all members and alleged members, when they join, they take an oath that they are going to abide by the constitution and bylaws of LULAC. And that is "We hereby agree In

specifically at page 4, Section 1.A.2:

to abide by the constitution and bylaws established by the national, state, and district assemblies and their local council." That's first of all. And then secondly, "Membership in the League may be effected through individual-initiated application to a local council or the recommendation of a member in good standing," under Section 1, general membership. That's also at page 4 of the constitution. Miguel Zazueta, who sponsored all these councils in Arizona, was not a member in good standing because he had not paid his dues. advised. The councils were so

They ignored the fact that they had not complied
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with that requirement that the constitution requires that Miguel Zazueta must be a member in good standing. not. They were advised. He was

They failed to cure the defect.

And they still haven't cured the defect. Now they want to say that LULAC has somehow defrauded them. Well, the constitution and the provisions In fact, the constitution

of the bylaws are mandatory.

and bylaws at Section 1, Article 14 of the constitution states, quote, "The constitution and bylaws shall become the supreme law of the League of the United Latin American Citizens," quote/unquote. This was -- this was done pursuant to the -to the constitution and bylaws, where they were required to fulfill that requirement, for Miguel Zazueta had to correct the defect, but they never did that. So the dues have not been converted. The

dues are pending the outcome of the litigation, to be refunded as appropriate, if that's the case, or to consider that as dues if, in fact, that is the decision. However, there is a remedy for this so-called defect. And that remedy, according to the

constitution, is pursuant to page 38 of the constitution, the legal advisor's opinion rendering those councils not members in good standing because Zazueta was not a member in good standing when he sponsored them.
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That is an

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appeal to the national assembly.

That's the remedy.

And

that's provided at page 10 of the constitution, under "National Assembly." And that specifically says -- at Section B, it says that, "The National Assembly is the supreme authority of the leading." And "The National Assembly is

vested with all legislative, judicial, and executive powers set forth in this constitution and bylaws and all adopted resolutions." Their remedy was to, in fact, go to the National Assembly, which they did. They showed up. And

the National Assembly, in their minutes, reported that there was a motion made by Rick Dovalina to challenge the credentials committee report that requested and showed that the councils from Arizona were not credentialed. There was, in fact, a motion and it was seconded to consider that these persons that were not credentialed because they had not applied through a member in good standing be seated as delegates at that national convention. The stand-up vote was done pursuant to the convention rules, which is Exhibit 14 of the plaintiffs. In that situation, the stand-up vote was consistent with the national convention rules that were adopted by the National Assembly and the national board.
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The stand-up

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vote was taken, and the National Assembly voted down the motion that was done by Rick Dovalina to allow these councils to vote. The motion failed.

And then, subsequent to that, Domingo Garcia, who was a candidate for president and who had been the subject of these councils wanting to vote for him withdrew his candidacy and said, "I no longer wish to run," which we believe, you know, makes the issue moot, since that's -- supposedly they wanted to vote for him, and that's the purpose they went, and he withdrew his candidacy. The stand-up vote is done because we have about a thousand delegates, and so that's the way it's done. It's very clear that they didn't have the They could have challenged and asked That's

sufficient votes.

for a more -- another vote, which was never done. in the -- that's in the national convention rules, Exhibit 14.

They could have said, "We want a roll-call

vote," or "We want another vote," you know, a show of hands and then count the hands or whatever. never done. Now, why they didn't do that, I don't know. But that was due process afforded to them. And now But that was

they're saying the stand-up vote was not proper, which is not true, because that was, in fact, the rules of the
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national convention. The remedy -- the remedy is there. due process was afforded. Their

And the National Assembly is That's

the appeal, and that is the remedy that they have. the remedy that they received.

Now they're coming to

court to relitigate that issue that was resolved at the National Assembly. That would allow courts to interfere with their nonprofit organizations in spite of the fact that the -- the constitution and bylaws have a remedy and they have due process provisions which were followed here. Significantly, at the time that Domingo Garcia was running for president, he wasn't really qualified, either, because he hadn't paid his dues for three consecutive years. So, ironically, we're litigating, supposedly, here because Domingo Garcia had Randy Parraz organize these councils, which we believe are the same people that were working for Randy as volunteers that were promised an all-paid vacation to Vegas. And they didn't -- had never -- most of them had never even heard of LULAC. They came because they

were offered a paid vacation to Vegas and because these straw councils were going to be supporting Domingo Garcia. Now, all of that said, Judge, what it comes
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down to is:

Is the national -- is the constitution and Or are individuals going

bylaws going to be the remedy?

to have to come to court and, regardless of whether they're even members in good standing, can sue LULAC without proper standing because they're not members and say, "We were deprived of membership," when, in fact, they knew they had been told that they needed to correct this defect, which they never did and they still haven't? Their dues could be refunded at any time when this litigation is resolved. No one is holding

that -- those funds captive or anything. And that is, in fact, what the Arizona nonprofit statute intends, which is -- which is controlling, we believe, in this case; that as long as there is a provision for due process -- and there is -that that is the remedy. And to add more members to a class if, in fact, they're not even members, you know, I think is a moot issue. If they're not even members, then how could

they be class representatives for members who are not even members of the League? Thank you, Judge. THE COURT: your first witness? MR. FORD: Okay. Plaintiffs call -- 30 Mr. Ford, are you ready to call

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seconds, Your Honor. THE COURT: invoking the rule or not? MR. GUAJARDO: MR. FORD: Yes, we are, Your Honor. Before you do that, are we

I didn't hear you. We're going to invoke the

MR. GUAJARDO: rule. THE COURT:

Invoking the rule. Yes, Your Honor.

MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT:

We're invoking the rule, which

means to the witnesses, before you testify, you need to leave the courtroom and wait outside the courtroom. the witness who is on the stand is allowed in the courtroom except for client representative. MR. GUAJARDO: going to stay. The party is here. He's Only

And then we have the representative from

the national LULAC office to stay, as well, because he's a party. Escobar. THE COURT: Who is the other party? David Hernandez. He's a He is from the national LULAC office, Manuel

MR. GUAJARDO: named defendant. THE COURT: defendant? MR. GUAJARDO:

You get -- he's a named

Yes he is.

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THE COURT: representative of LULAC?

And Mr. Escobar is a

MR. GUAJARDO: MR. ESCOBAR: which is a named defendant. THE COURT: MR. FORD:

That's correct. National LULAC, Your Honor,

Thank you. All right. Mr. Garcia is a

representative of the class, and Mr. -- Beto is the plaintiffs. THE COURT: MR. FORD: THE COURT: MR. FORD: THE COURT: Okay. So they can -Parties -Excuse me. That's Mr. Soto. Nonparty

Parties can stay.

witnesses have to leave the courtroom until their turn to testify. MR. FORD: as our first witness. THE COURT: MR. FORD: Okay. If I can ask what rule -- what Okay. I'll call Socorro Esquivel

rule number is that that is being invoked? THE COURT: Rule 16.

If you'd come forward over here first, in front of my clerk, to swear you in. COURT CLERK: Could you spell your name for

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the record, please. THE WITNESS: S-o-c-o-r-r-o. C-o-r-a. My name is Socorro,

Other word -- other name known as Cora,

Last name Esquivel, E-s-q-u-i-v-e-l. COURT CLERK: Thank you.

(Witness sworn.) THE COURT: It's probably easier to go

behind the podium so you don't have to step over this barrier. You're going to go up that ramp, you're and end Have a seat and make yourself

up over here on my left. comfortable.

You may proceed, Mr. Ford. MR. FORD: Thank you, Your Honor.

SOCORRO ESQUIVEL, a witness herein, having been first duly sworn to speak the truth and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. FORD: Q. As has been set forth in the pleadings, the --

let me ask first your name. A. Esquivel. Q. Could you spell your surname, please, your last
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Socorro Esquivel, otherwise known as Cora

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name? A. Q. E-s-q-u-i-v-e-l. Thank you. That's for the record.

And where do you live, Ms. Esquivel? A. Q. I live in Tucson, Arizona. Thank you. Are you a -I'm not sure Mr. Domingo I'm not sure what -He's not a

MR. GUAJARDO:

Garcia is a party or can be present.

why is he here because we've invoked the rule. party. THE COURT: party. MR. GARCIA: class and part of the -THE COURT: MR. GARCIA:

Mr. Garcia is not listed as a

Judge, I'm just a member of the

I haven't certified a class yet. In that case, then, I would not

be their -- but I understand they didn't file a response. By the way, I'm an attorney in the state of Texas. not licensed in the state of Arizona. But if there's no response to the certification, couldn't the court rule on that now or not? Because that would affect whether I stay or not. MR. FORD: Mr. Garcia is giving voice to I'm

something I did want to ask the Court, Your Honor. MR. GUAJARDO: Mr. Garcia is not licensed in

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Texas, and he has not properly filed a motion to appear. THE COURT: a response? Mr. Guajardo, when did you file

Because I don't have a response on docket. MR. GUAJARDO: It could be, Your Honor, that

we're going to address our position here as our question, so I don't believe it's going to affect the outcome. If

they're wrong on the issue of the merits, they're going to be wrong on all the class members. So I think the merits

issue that's going to be decided today will be resolved in terms of resolving the entire case because we believe -it's our position that if, in fact, there is a class and they Luis on the merits, then they're all -- I think but -THE COURT: There being no response -- no

timely response to the motion to certify class, it's ordered certifying the class. the courtroom. MR. GARCIA: MR. FORD: Thank you, Your Honor. Thank you. And Mr. Garcia may stay in

Your Honor, I'll ask -- excuse me for asking this. But just as one final preliminary, I would ask that

we be able to submit written closing arguments to save court time today. THE COURT: I'll consider that when we're

done to see how far we've gotten.
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MR. FORD: We'll proceed right away. BY MR. FORD: Q. A. Q. A.

Thank you.

Much appreciated.

Ms. Esquivel, are you a member of LULAC? Yes, I am. And how long have you been a member of LULAC for? I have been a member for probably 40 years, but But I was recruited by

then I stopped being a member.

Mr. Hernandez to come in and be a part of LULAC being that I was the first past national president of the Young Adults. In fact, me and Mr. Hernandez built -- made the

Young Adults. Q. Allow me to see if I can clarify that a little Approximately 30 years ago, you were saying you were

the first national vice president for youth -A. Q. A. For the Young Adults. -- in LULAC? And you worked with Mr. Hernandez?

Mr. Hernandez and me both worked together, and

we're the first ones to charter; except that Mr. Hernandez was not of age. So I was appointed and voted in to be the

first national president. Q. Okay. Thank you. And Mr. Hernandez, referring

to defendant? A. Q. Defendant. Okay. And are you -- were you a member of LULAC
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in the calendar year 2013? A. Q. started. A. Q. Yes, I was. Okay. So -Yeah. Okay. I stopped and then I started. Excellent. We want to go to the Arizona Because it sounds like you stopped and

convention and the night before the Arizona convention, which was on the 6th of June, as was mentioned. a meeting that you attended? A. Yeah. There was a meeting that I was invited to And it was meeting -- my thing was to go But it Was there

by Mr. Mireles.

in and sort of straighten up my rosters, okay? turned out to be, like, a strategy meeting. Q. Excuse me.

When you say "rosters," you mean

membership rosters for councils? A. Q. A. Q. A. The rosters of my people that were -In Tucson? Yeah. Okay. And it turned out to be a strategy meeting on how

to prevent the people from Phoenix and from San Luis from being able to vote. Q. A. Q. And where was this meeting held? At the Desert Diamond in a room. And do you know whose hotel room that was in?
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A. Q. A.

Who hotel room? Yeah. I think at the end, Mr. Hernandez ended up

staying in that room. Q. And can you remember or can you tell the Court

who exactly attended the meeting? A. In the meeting was Mr. Mireles; Ana Valenzuela,

who is a credential lady; Mr. and Mrs. Moran. Q. And can you -- who is Mrs. Moran? What's her

role in LULAC? A. husband. Q. A. Right. Okay. Thank you. She's a national president. And Mr. Moran is her

And another lady that I know by the name of And the

Mari (phonetic); I don't recall her last name.

other one was a Connie Martinez that works with Mrs. Moran as her secretary. Q. A. Okay. And another three people that I don't, you know,

remember their names. Q. And you characterized this as a strategy meeting.

What -- what types of things were these -- what types of strategies were they discussing? specific strategies or reasons? A. They were -- they were talking that there were
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Do you recall any

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people that were not going to be voting for the Morans, and the thing was to prevent them from being in there. And the situation was that they were going to use the Zazueta as an issue being that even though they got the check from Zazueta -- Mr. Mireles and Connie -not Connie. What's her name? -- Ana Valenzuela were not

processing it because they wanted to make sure they were not legal either way. So then what happened was I kept -- in fact, I asked the question, being that Connie worked for the same agency, which is PPEP. So Zazueta and PPEP had paid

the dues for Connie and paid the dues for -- for Zazueta. It was that -- you know, why would it -- would they hold it? Because I didn't know much of what was going on. Q. So are we -- just to kind of clarify, are we

saying that it seems like they accepted the registration of one person who paid from this group, P -A. Q. A. Q. Yeah, PP, which is Connie's. And yet not another? Not another one. And you saw that as being -- and why -- why do

you think that was? A. Because they wanted to make -- that the Zazueta

people were not going to be -- the Young Adults from the San Luis and the Phoenix areas would not be able, and they
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were going to use that as an excuse. Q. A. Q. An excuse to? To not let them vote. I see. Did they discuss anything about the

national convention during this strategy meeting? A. Well, I asked Mrs. Moran, "How -- how is it going

to help at the national?" She said, "Oh, we're prepared for it. worry. way." Q. A. Q. A. Q. When she's referring to "they," who would -The councils --- she be referring to? -- from the Phoenix and San Luis area. And do you think the -- do you know why she was Don't

They're not going to be able to get in, either

so concerned about these councils? A. Because they knew that they were not going to go They didn't want anybody that was going

with them at all.

to be against them to be a part of -Q. A. Q. A. Q. When you say "go with," you mean -To vote for her. -- like support -Yeah, in reality. Okay. And then upon hearing this discussion, how I mean, what did you

did it -- how did it make you feel?

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think about this? A. I observed because I felt that the Lord had put What I had started and

me back 30 years to come in here.

the grass roots that David and I had built were going down the drain with the young people and the people that wanted to vote, because that's not LULAC. Q. Did you feel that what they were planning was

appropriate? A. Q. next day? No. Who -- did you attend the -- the convention the The Arizona convention held in Tucson, did you

attend that? A. Q. Yes, I did. Do you recall about what time in the morning you

arrived at the convention? A. Well, in the meeting on the day before, they had

told us to make sure that we get all our delegates there by 7:00 so we could make sure they got registered so they wouldn't allow the Phoenix and San Luis to go in. they were not ready at that point. Q. A. At what point? Well, at 7 o'clock, they were not ready with They hadn't set up the But

their paperwork or anything going. tables.

So, in reality, what they did, they gave me a

stack of delegates for me to fill out the names and give
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them to the councils. Q. moment. A. Q. Okay. So I'm just trying to establish -- so you You got there around Okay. We'll -- we'll get to that in just a

attended the convention that day. 7:00 in the morning? A. Q. A. Q. in early? A. 7 o'clock.

They told us to come in early.

Who told you to come in early? The Morans and Ana and Mr. Mireles. Do you have any idea why they asked you to come

Because they wanted to make sure the people from

Phoenix and the San Luis people were not able to get registered or go through the process. Q. A. Okay. And --

It was like trying to throw them off from the

time schedule. Q. was? A. I think the time schedule was 8:30 to 10:00 or Oh, okay. Do you remember what the time schedule

something like that. Q. A. Q. It's Exhibit 1 -Yeah. -- addresses that, and I'll get to that later.
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A. Q.

Yeah. -- with another witness. But I'm just trying to

get the timing down. A. Q. Yeah. Who -- if you can recall, who kind of managed and Who was in charge?

controlled that convention that day? A. Q. A. Mr. Moran. Mr. Moran.

Mr. Moran was? Yes. Because he was telling them, "If you don't

like me going back to the day before," right there he nom -- he nominated Mardi and another lady to be the proletarian people -Q. A. Okay. -- so that they would make sure that they did not

allow the young people to vote, the people from San Luis and Phoenix. Q. A. Okay. He appointed him, not the general -- the state

and taught him how to go about it, so. Q. And you mentioned the day before attending those

meetings -- the meeting -- the strategy meeting you called it, David Hernandez and Connie Martinez. On the 8th, during the convention, were they -- what were they -- were they engaging in anything that caught your attention, any activities?
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A. Q.

The day before? No. I'm sorry. During the convention that

morning -A. Q. thing -A. Q. A. Yeah. They were -During the convention --- with regard to registration and that sort of

-- were Mr. Hernandez and Ms. Martinez -They were going back and forth into a room to

make sure that the delegation was supposed to be legal, and they couldn't -- they were trying to find ways that it would not be allowed -- that these people were not going to -- the Zazueta people were not going to be allowed to vote. And then what happened, the numbers were not right at the time that they finished counting. So

apparently they came up that we all had to have letters saying that -- who were the delegates. Q. A. What do you call those letters? They're the delegate letter that has to be signed The delegates --

by the president -- by the national -- by the state director and by the president and everybody else. They had -- Randy Parra showed the letters. I did not -- they told me go ahead and you write your letter right now for the six councils.
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And I said, "I

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really can't.

It's too short of a notice."

They were

already starting to vote.

I was not his legal -- I wasn't

a legal person either, if they weren't legal. Q. A. Q. You mean legal -- oh, I see. According to them, they were saying -Okay. Back up. Let's -- I want to kind of -I want to kind of

you've given us a lot of testimony. boil it down a little bit.

On the one hand, it sound -- you're saying, if I'm getting you correctly, that your councils from Tucson were allowed to submit these delegate letters or one -- or delegate letters for one council was submitted and then -- and then who was allowed -- who was credentialed to vote after the submission of that one council's letters? A. What I'm trying to tell you, in our situation, we

were given preferential treatment -Q. A. Right. -- due to the fact that they thought that we were

on their side -Q. A. Q. Yeah. -- and we were going to vote for them. Right. So on the Friday, on the day before the

convention in Tucson, the Arizona convention -A. Yeah.
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Q. A. Q.

-- had you been planning to vote for Ms. Moran? Yes, I was. And do you -- was it your observation and

understanding that they believed you were supportive of them? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Oh, yes, they were. When I say "they," the Moran -Yeah. -- [ inaudible ] and [ inaudible ]. They were. And do you think that they essentially allowed

you to go through the credentialing process without following all the rules? A. Q. Yes, they did. And that's because they -- they -MR. GUAJARDO: object. Speculation as to -MR. FORD: Withdrawn. -- what anything they may Your Honor, I'm going to

MR. GUAJARDO: have -THE COURT:

Move on. -- he's [ inaudible ].

MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT: MR. FORD: and rephrase.

He withdrew the question. I'll rephrase it. I'll withdraw

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BY MR. FORD: Q. Tell you what, I'm going to go to something else

and come back to that. Can you describe to us how the voting was conducted? sessions. A. Apparently there are two separate vote Can you explain that to us a little bit? In the morning session, they -- that's why they And they had

wanted the Moran people to be there early. the nominations -Q. A. Okay.

-- for who were going to be the state director

and so forth and -Q. So the nominations were done in the morning. And

was -- were all the LULAC members who were present in Tucson that day present for that vote or in the room for that vote? A. Q. A. No, because they had them separated. Who did they have separated? The ones that were supposed to be supportive of

the Moran people were in the dining -- like the dining area, and then the people from San Luis and Phoenix were in the cafeteria. So they didn't even get a chance to go

and nominate somebody else as president of the state or their delegation. Q. Are these two rooms separate -480.227.4077 www.TAtrans.com TRUAUDIO TRANSCRIBERS, LLC

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A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q.

Very separate. -- like with a wall between them? Yes. Okay. So to establish the idea that --

That was the idea. So the people from Phoenix and San Luis were -Isolated. -- not in the same room essentially as the place

where the nominations were being turned out? A. Q. as well? A. Q. Yes. And were all the members present in the room when Yes. Yes. Then was there an afternoon session

All right.

the national -- excuse me -- when the afternoon session voting was taking place? A. Q. Yeah. They got everybody together, both of them.

Was everyone who were members seated to vote, in

other words, allowed to vote, or were some prevented from voting? A. They were prevented from voting. Some of them,

even some of -- some council -- they didn't do the proper calling of the councils, but their thing was not to allow them to. And so they said that before in the morning, the

state delegation, the state officers were already elected
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by acclimation. Q. I see.

So that was it. So the nominations were by acclimation.

And in the afternoon, they have these voting -- the voting for -- the final vote, I guess? A. Q. The final vote, um-hmm. Is it your testimony, then, that they're -- if

I'm hearing you, they didn't follow procedure to call councils to be seated to vote; is that correct? A. There was no -- the -- the idea was that the

proletarian was supposed to make sure it didn't happen. And that's what Moran was teaching her to do the day before. Okay? So when the voting came up, they just went that everybody was elected for the state by acclimation, but Phoenix and the -- they wanted to put in their people, and they didn't allow it. They just wanted them to go

ahead and get into trouble or make -Q. Was -- was there security or police presence at

this convention in Arizona? A. That was the topic of the night before, that they

were going to make -Q. Okay. We're going back to the night before, the

7th in the hotel room? A. Yeah. The strategy meeting was that they wanted

to make sure for them to get mad and do civil disobedience
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or get into a fight so that they could arrest them and they could not be a part of the convention and be taken away. And that's the way they were not going to be able

to vote, too. Q. Okay. And I'm sorry. I'm going to double back So, in your

to the registration one more time.

observation -- first of all, did you see the Phoenix and San Luis councils attempt to register? A. Q. Yes. Okay. Did that registration process go exactly

the same as the registration process for your Tucson councils? A. Well, I -- the way I saw it was that actually, in

our situation, they just didn't care whether we were eligible or not. They just gave us -- I could have given

anybody a delegate badge. Q. is? A. Q. A. Q. To vote. Um-hmm. So you can go into the voting area? Badge? And the significance of a delegate badge

Yeah, that you were legal. Okay. And what was -- did they treat the Phoenix

councils as -- if you observed this, did they treat the Phoenix councils exactly the same way? A. I didn't hear you.
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Q.

Did they treat the -- you just described how they

treated your councils -A. Q. Um-hmm. -- which sort of allowed you to essentially Did they treat the Phoenix

breeze through and so forth. councils exactly the same way? A. Q. A. No. How did they --

In other words, they didn't give them the right They sat them in the

for anything as a LULAC member.

cafeteria when they were having the nominations so they wouldn't know it was going on. They -- I was able to go in and act like a delegate whether I was or not. Q. When -- with respect to -- you mentioned they

mentioned a delegate letter, which was a way to get yourself signed in; is that correct? A. Q. letters? A. Q. A. Q. A. Um-hmm. Did the Phoenix groups attempt to submit delegate Did you happen to see that? Yeah. I saw Randy Parra having them right there.

And were they -They were not accepted. -- accepted in the same way yours were accepted? I didn't have to put one in because finally I
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said, "I'm not going to write all this in five minutes, six councils." Q. A. Um-hmm. So -- it didn't matter to them because I was

treated different -Q. A. I see. -- because they thought I was a Moran person.

The other ones, they had their letter and everything professionally done. Q. A. Q. A. Q. now -A. Q. Okay. -- and ask you, first of all: Did you attend the Yes. You know, the councils from Phoenix. Yes. But they were, nonetheless, not accepted? I saw them.

They were not accepted. Okay. I'm going to go to the national convention

national convention in Las Vegas? A. Q. Yes, I did. Okay. So we're going to talk about some dates.

I believe a couple dates -- the voting took place on the 22nd. A. Q. Yes. And then some other activity took place on the And I'm going to ask on the 20th,
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days prior to that.

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which would have been two days before the vote, were you -- did you meet in a -- in a place in the hotel called the Pompeii Room? so it would be -A. Q. Yeah. Roman-themed names. So you met in the Pompeii room? A. We were at the Pompeii Room. That's where the I think the hotel was Caesar's Palace,

people who were the Moran people that were supposed to be voting for the Morans being registered and they're being -Q. Excuse me. Let me stop you. That might have

been the Senate Room. A. Room. Q. Right. No.

I'm asking two days before -It was the Senate

It was the Senate Room.

But prior to that day -- that was on the

21st, and we'll get to that in a moment. A. Q. A. Q. Okay. On the 20th -- I'm trying to go chronologically. Yeah. On the 20th, there apparently was -- was there a

meeting in a room called the Pompeii Room with some other LULAC leaders that you attended? A. Yeah. For example -I did meet on

I'm trying to make sure.

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Q. A.

Mr. Hernandez? -- because I kept asking that I wanted Ana

Valenzuela to make sure she had credentials for my councils in the proper way. Q. Okay?

Was there any discussion during that meeting of

transferring delegates? A. What -- my issue was that David Hernandez The Far West president by the name of Mickie

arranged it. Luna -Q. A. Q. A.

Um-hmm. -- was called in, Mireles and Ana Valenzuela. Okay. And we talked about the issues that I felt that

in my situation, which was before they wanted me to transfer 18 people that were alternates because my councils all had their delegates. Q. And why -- where -- what did they want to do with

these transferred alternates? A. Transfer them, like, to Puerto Rico or other

councils that didn't have enough people. Q. A. Q. And why do you think they wanted to do that? They wanted to get the extra votes in. I see. Okay. Now, on the -- excuse me. On the

next day, the 21st of June, did anyone -- the next day, were you approached by anyone on that same issue of the
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transferring? A. Well, I was pestered through the whole three days And I kept saying, "I

of trying to transfer those people.

met with my councils, and I told them what was happening. They said no." And what I told Mr. Moran, David, and other -- and I think there was another lawyer in there, and I told them, "Look, I will not sign a letter putting anybody in another council without them doing it themselves." Q. And when you mentioned David, was that

Mr. Hernandez? A. Q. Hernandez. Defendant Hernandez. All right.

And that day that we're talking about now, the 21st, you -- you had mentioned this before. in the Senate Room? A. Q. A. Yes. And why were you there in the Senate Room? Well, we were still trying to make sure that my Because I was still being stubborn You were

rosters went in.

because they were still being stubborn about transferring my extra delegates that I had. Q. Okay. And what did you see taking place in the

Senate Room that day?
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A.

Mr. Moran never left our sight.

He was there

throughout the day. Q. A. Was he -- okay. Excuse me. Go ahead, please.

And what happened, Mr. Moran was -- only the

people that were on Moran's side were supposed to knock, and they would let them in and check them out and say, "Okay. You can come in." You know, they had like -- I Other people

think David guarded the door for a while. guarded the door. Q. A. Q. Why would they guard the door? Because --

Was this a registration place where people could

be registered or -A. people. Q. A. Q. A. Oh, a special registration place? Yes. Um-hmm. So what happened, there was a lady that came in And I let -- I was asking questions. And I asked her, well, how You It was a special place to register the Moran

from Brownsville.

You know, don't get me wrong.

come she was able to fill out everything by herself. know, she had 65 people. Q. When you say "fill out everything," what does

that refer to?
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A. Q. A. Q. A.

The registration and everything. The paperwork essentially? Yeah, that was supposed to be submitted. Okay. And without showing IDs or anything, she was just And it was like 65

signing names and everything else. people that she had. Q.

And at that time --

So they let -- to clarify, they -- those in --

let me back up. Who is managing this registration? Do you

remember which people were in charge of the registration to facilitate it? A. Well, Mr. Moran was really delegating these

people, like David and two other people that were there. Q. people. David Hernandez. Okay. And a couple other

And is it -- just to clarify, is it your

testimony that one person was allowed to register 65 people? A. Q. Yes. Who was -- who she is associated with by being

from a different -A. Q. A. Q. She was from Brownsville. -- geographical location? -- Brownsville, Texas. Okay.
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Her name was Sandra.

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A.

Because I asked her.

I said, "You're writing

them out?" She said, "Yes." So then she just handed out the paperwork to Mr. Moran. Q. A. money -Q. A. Like a bank bag, one of those pouches? Yeah, like a bank bag. And gave her money and Okay. Mr. Moran at that point had like a bank with

gave her the ribbons right there. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Gave her money? Yes. Do you know why he gave her money? I don't know. All I know is that --

Did everyone who registered get money? A lot of people that went in through that line

did get money -Q. A. ribbons. Q. Okay. And the ribbons -- what's the significance Okay. -- and get the T-shirts right away and the

of the ribbons? A. The ribbons is when you're already allowed to be

a delegate and go in and be able to vote.
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Q.

Okay.

So that -- the ribbon is, in essence, your

ticket in -A. Q. A. Q. Yes. -- to the voting assembly that next day? Um-hmm. Okay. Now, ultimately, did you comply with these

requests that I understand Mr. Mireles and Mr. Hernandez were making to transfer delegates? Did you ultimately

just give in and say, "Sure, I'll do it," or did you ultimately refuse? A. I refused. And I felt like I couldn't do it. I

wasn't going to do it. know, sort of breathe. Q. A. to say -Q. A. Q. A. Yes.

And I walked out for a second, you

And meanwhile, they tried to work on my grandson

We'll get his testimony a little later on that. Okay. So I appreciate that. Anyway, I said no. And from then on, it was like

they knew I was going to the other side because I didn't like what was going on. Q. And once they became aware of that, once it

became clear to those folks, meaning -- when I say that, the Morans, Mr. Hernandez and Mireles and people like
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that, the supporters and incumbents, once they became aware, did -- how -- did the Tucson councils get to come in the Senate Room and go breeze through the registration process, too, or did something else happen? A. No. I never got the ribbons. I had to get in

line like the other people did. Q. So when you say "get in line," that's sort of for

the -- everyone else, the people who aren't processed through the Senate Room? A. Like the Phoenix people and the San Luis people

who were not friendly to the Morans. Q. And there was sort of a secondary or a

different -A. I was turned into a different class, from the

privileged to the underprivileged. Q. I see. Did Ms. Moran -- okay. Let's go to --

we're going to go to the 22nd, the day the voting -A. Q. Um-hmm. -- took place. Did Mr. Moran approach you that day and -A. Q. A. Yes. It was the day of the convention.

Um-hmm. And he -- we were on the floor, me and Beto and And what happened, he came out and talked

other people. to me.

And he said that Mrs. Margaret Moran, which is the
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national president, wanted to speak to me. And at that point, I told him, "I can't talk to nobody no more. I already told you I will not do And what will

anything that I don't feel is right."

happen -- he said, "Well, I have invested so much money. I paid your hotel room. just to make sure." And then I said, "Mr. Moran, just send me a bill if you want to, but I'm not going to change my mind." So -Q. Okay. Now, you were -- you were -- were you I paid this and that for you guys

credentialed -- were you ultimately credentialed to vote, yourself personally? A. Well, I sort of forced myself up the line. I

went clear up the line that was way -- miles, I'd say, to make sure if I could get the credentials. And I got up --

throughout the -- going up to get the registration ribbons, if you didn't have the ribbons the day before, you had to walk for quite a while in a big line. had guards. Q. A. Q. Okay. Okay. But what I want to is ask is: Is there a I'll get to the guards in a moment. And they

particular reason why you were credentialed based on your past -480.227.4077 www.TAtrans.com TRUAUDIO TRANSCRIBERS, LLC

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A.

Well, finally because I argued with him and -And he, himself, went up there and told them

with Moran.

to give me my badge. Q. Is that not because of your past participation or

past office holding in the -A. Well, yeah, because -MR. GUAJARDO: Speculation. THE COURT: THE WITNESS: MR. FORD: THE COURT: BY MR. FORD: Q. Is there any other reason why you think you were Sustained. My -Objection, Your Honor.

I have to rephrase the question. You can't answer.

given a ribbon, i.e., credentialed? A. Yeah. Because I was -- under the bylaws and the

rules of LULAC, being a past national president from the Young Adults, I have voting privileges for life. Q. Okay. Thank you. Now, you were mentioning

security guards, and I want to get into that just briefly. Were -- where were these guards? they deployed? A. They were, like, in every 20 to 30 feet apart, And I'm a person that asks questions. And I You Where were

two of them.

asked them, "By the way, who paid so many guards?"
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know, "Who paid you?"

And the answer was that Mr. and

Mrs. Moran had paid to make sure, you know, people wouldn't go through. Q. So I was going to ask you if you talked to them.

And that's -A. Q. Yeah, I did. Okay. All right. And that's the answer. You

had talked to them, you asked them those questions, and those are the answers you got? A. Q. Um-hmm. Okay. When -- were some -- were you aware

whether -- were you aware whether the other -- other -whether other members of the Tucson councils, your councils, were credentialed and allowed into the voting assembly? A. They weren't allowed. I'd say out of the 25

votes we had -MR. GUAJARDO: Honor. MR. FORD: I'm not sure that's -That others were not allowed Objection. Hearsay, Your

MR. GUAJARDO: to vote. THE COURT: personal knowledge. BY MR. FORD:

Get some predicate about her

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Q.

Were you there observing -- did you observe

whether people were allowed in or not allowed in the -let me back up. Let me rephrase it.

Of your personal knowledge, do you know how many members of the Tucson councils were allowed to vote? A. Twenty-five was supposed to be voting. Only

eight or seven -- seven actually were the only ones that got to vote. the situation. Q. We'll get to that in a moment. But so -- I'll Well, they didn't vote, actually, because of

rephrase my question to make it a little more precise. How many people were credentialed to vote and given the credentials with which they could enter into the voting assembly? MR. GUAJARDO: Honor. THE WITNESS: BY MR. FORD: Q. Of your personal knowledge? THE COURT: MR. FORD: THE COURT: Strike that answer. Okay. Okay. Seven. Objection. Hearsay, Your

You're going to have to give Because if it's

some predicate of how she knows that. just somebody told her, it's hearsay. BY MR. FORD:
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Q.

How did you acquire the knowledge of the number

of people from Tucson who voted or were credentialed to vote? A. I was the leader. I was the person that was And I had the privilege of

working with my councils.

making sure of the councils being registered and everything. And the time to be going in, I went back,

checking with everybody that they did not -- that they were not allowed. And only seven were in there at the

time -- that were allowed when the convention started -only 7 out of our 25. Q. assembly? A. Yes. MR. GUAJARDO: someone else, Your Honor. THE WITNESS: MR. FORD: work around that. She said she was told by Objection. No. When you say "convention," you mean the voting

I think we -- we attempted to

If it's not -Overruled at this point. Thank you, Your Honor. Go on.

THE COURT: MR. FORD: BY MR. FORD: Q.

So you were credentialed to vote, as we've So did the security guards just sort of let Did you breeze right into the -480.227.4077 www.TAtrans.com TRUAUDIO TRANSCRIBERS, LLC

established. you right in?

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A.

Well, I still had problems going through the

whole thing, because I had to show my ID and I had to show my badge again and everything else I had to do. It was

like going through -- it was a hard -- very hard to get in. Q. And as a leader of your group of councils, with

regard to those who were not credentialed to vote -- I think we're talking about roughly 18, if memory serves -were they registered at all in some other way? A. national. Q. A. Okay. Because they kept me trying to -- I would have No. They were not able to register for the

given them the 18 delegates to go to different councils. Everybody would have been okay to go in. But since I

refused and they knew I wasn't going to vote for the Morans -MR. GUAJARDO: Honor. THE COURT: MR. FORD: going to move on. BY MR. FORD: Q. During the convention, did you make a motion to Sustained. Let's just -- let me just -- I'm Objection. Speculation, Your

allow the -- during assembly, did you make a motion to
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allow those from Arizona that had been excluded to be included? A. Q. A. Yeah. We made point -- what is the point of -Would that be --

Point of order?

Point of order, and they turned the microphones

off on us. Q. A. Morans. What microphones? The main microphone, which was being run by the I knew -- I know that the national president,

Margaret, was the one that was pushing the button. Q. A. Margaret Moran? Yes. And at that time when it was my turn to

speak and I yelled, "Point of order," they turned the microphone off. Q. And in so doing, did that prevent the motion from What was the effect of that?

being heard? A.

Well, at that point -- at that point, you had the

Puerto Ricans and a lot of other people that they had allowed come in making all kinds of noise. Plus, there

was no way anybody could even hear anything and her turning off the microphone. Q. issue? A. There was, but then what happened was they did -Was ultimately a roll-call vote requested on the

they started it, and councils were all yelling that they
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were giving the wrong numbers.

So they told us to go And I'd say all the

outside with the credentials people.

councils went, and there was a big line. So then they decided, oh, let's forget about it and come back into the assembly. roll call. Q. So, ultimately, the roll-call vote was requested, And they never did a

but then it was not carried forward? A. It was never done. MR. FORD: Okay. I need for Ms. Esquivel to

have the exhibit -- the court exhibit book so I can ask her about some of the exhibits, please. COURT CLERK: THE COURT: come get them. MR. FORD: No. 13. THE COURT: exact exhibit. BY MR. FORD: Q. A. Q. A. Q. Do you have Exhibit 13 before you, Ms. Esquivel? Yes, um-hmm. And do you recognize the exhibit? Yes, I do. Is it a true and correct copy of a letter that
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They're on the table. They're on the table. You can

I'm going to address Exhibit

It's better if you give her the

And don't mess them up.

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you -- that you -A. Q. A. Q. Yes. -- sent to Ms. Moran and Mr. Mireles? Yes. And on the next page of the exhibit, behind the

letter, are those true and correct copies of receipts -A. Q. A. Yes. -- that you obtained for expenditures? Yes. MR. FORD: be admitted at this time. MR. GUAJARDO: Your Honor. I'm not sure it's relevant, Okay. I'll ask that Exhibit 13

She was -- there's been no connection to

either Ms. Moran or Ms. Mireles owed her monies for transportation or anything else. She's claiming

reimbursement for payment of gas, food, et cetera, totaling $4,448. And there's no basis, contractual or otherwise, to show how this is relevant to -- to the allegations. She wasn't paid, and there was no basis for

her to be paid other than, you know, she's requesting, and it's not relevant. THE COURT: MR. FORD: Mr. Ford. If the court would allow me to

lay a bit more foundation, and then I'll elicit testimony
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that would show the relevance. THE COURT: MR. FORD: BY MR. FORD: Q. So, first of all, Ms. Esquivel, did you pay a Okay. If the court would allow that.

membership -- for your membership in 2013? A. No. When David called me, they said that the

Morans were going to pay for that -Q. A. Okay. -- for the councils. And they paid the dues for

the -- to become charter and everything -Q. A. Q. Did you pay --- for the six councils. Did you make some expenditures in order to go to

Las Vegas? A. Q. Yes, I have to do -- yes. Does this letter essentially describe those

expenditures? A. Q. A. The -Looks like the rental vans -The dues was paid for the six councils. Okay.

That was the agreement that was done with Mr. Moran and David Hernandez. They paid the rooms, and that was again

because they thought I was going to vote for the Morans. Okay?
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. FORD: Q. Okay. there -Hearsay.

And if you look at the paperwork, the six transportation vehicles, vans that were used were rented by Luis Iyava, (phonetic) something like that, for us. MR. GUAJARDO: Objection, Your Honor.

THE WITNESS:

It's -- the receipts are

MR. GUAJARDO: [ Inaudible ]. THE COURT: Sustained.

So we won't concern ourselves with exactly

who, but -A. Q. Yes. If I can summarize, it sounds like you -- did you

pay in advance some money to rent some of these vans? A. Q. No, until we came back. Okay. MR. GUAJARDO: relevancy, Your Honor. to how it's relevant. to her. I'm going to object on

He hasn't laid any foundation as There is no basis for reimbursement

She testified that they paid for the room and

they paid for the council dues. THE COURT: Is it -Now she's asking for

MR. GUAJARDO: reimbursement for --

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. rules? A. Yes. BY MR. FORD: Q. in order. green tags?

THE COURT:

Isn't it admissible just for the

fact that she sent the letter, not the contents? MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT: Yes, Your Honor.

I'll admit -- I'll admit

Exhibit 13 as evidence of the fact that she sent the letter. MR. FORD: Okay. That's fine, Your Honor.

Is that going to be marked as Exhibit 13, Your Honor? THE COURT: They're already marked. The

MR. FORD: THE COURT: MR. FORD:

Yeah. We premark our exhibits here. I just want to make sure it stays

THE COURT:

Yes, please.

Thank you.

We're going to go next Exhibit 14.

Thank you,

Mr. Garcia. Do you recognize, Ms. Esquivel, Exhibit 14? Yes, I do. And what is it? It's a 2013 LULAC national convention rules. Okay. And is that a true and correct copy of the

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Q. A.

And how did you obtain it? It's from the book that LULAC sent out. MR. FORD: Move to admit -- or request to

admit Exhibit 14. MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT: BY MR. FORD: Q. Okay. Regarding Exhibit 14, if I can direct your No objection, Judge.

Exhibit 14 is admitted.

attention to provision 3 and 4 on that page, apparently it's Rules 3 and 4 of these convention rules, can you -can you read the type in that? No. 3 and No. 4? Is that -- can you read

They're contained -- they're pertaining

to the election judge. A. Q. A. Yeah. No. Okay. You want No. 1 and 3 and 4? Just No. 3 and 4, please, at this time. Number 3, "An elections charge -- judge

shall be appointed by the national president to conduct the elections." Q. A. And was that done in your observation? No, it was not done. MR. GUAJARDO: Honor. MR. FORD: I'm asking for her observation. Number -Objection. Hearsay, Your

She was present at the meeting -- at the voting assembly. MR. GUAJARDO: She's not a member of the

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national board of directors. THE COURT: appointed a judge?

They're the ones that --

And how would she know if they

I'm assuming it doesn't have to be

done in the convention. BY MR. FORD: Q. Of your own personal knowledge, do you know if an

election judge presided over the voting assembly at the convention? A. Q. Say it again. Of your own personal knowledge, did you see or

are you aware that an election judge presided over the voting assembly in Las Vegas? A. Q. A. No. Would you read No. 4, please. "The election judge shall appoint a timekeeper

and three official counters for all elections." Q. And of your personal knowledge, are you aware

that there was a timekeeper employed in the -- during the voting assembly? A. Q. counters. A. Q. please.
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No. And same question with regard to official Did you see anybody -- official counters? No. Okay. I will ask you to read provision No. 1,

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A.

Number 1, "Only delegates or alternates replacing

a delegate wearing their certified badge will be allowed in voting section. All other persons shall be seated in

an" -- I have diabetes -- "in observance or designated by the credentials committee. The only exception is this

rule shall be to accommodate a physically challenged delegate or alternate that desires to be seated in the general area." Q. Okay. Ms. Esquivel, again, based on your

personal knowledge and presence at the national voting assembly, was there a -- was there an observation area set up for people who weren't delegates -A. Q. A. Q. No. -- and credentialed? No. And so to ask the question another way, was

anyone else allowed in the voting assembly besides those who had, I think, the ribbon in this case? MR. GUAJARDO: Honor. BY MR. FORD: Q. A. Q. Did you see anyone -Well --- besides those with credential ribbons admitted Objection. Speculation, Your

to the voting assembly?
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Ms. Esquivel? A. Q. BY MR. FORD: Q. question. question.

MR. GUAJARDO:

It's kind of vague because

there's an observation area that could be in the voting assembly. THE COURT: Well, I'll let her answer the

THE WITNESS:

I went in to talk to Mr. Moran Okay? Nothing had

before they were setting up the area.

been started because I wanted to talk to Mr. Moran about my badge -MR. GUAJARDO: Nonresponsive to the

THE COURT:

Sustained.

Did you personally observe any delegates from

Arizona who were not credentialed -- i.e., not given the badges or ribbons to enter -- did you see them anywhere observing inside the assembly? A. Q. No. Okay. Thank you. Okay. I'm going to ask -- I'm

going to direct the witness' attention to Exhibit No. 11. Do you have Exhibit 11 before you,

Yes, I do. Okay. And can you explain this first page? Can you explain that? It

appears to be an e-mail.

Was that

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sent to you? A. Yeah. That was sent that -- to me by my And my name is down

grandson's computer, Joseph Cordero. there. Q. A. Q.

Is this a true and correct copy of the e-mail? Yes. Okay. And what -- it says, "Here is the detail Can you explain what this is about to

of each vehicle." the Court? A.

This is a rental that the national office had

rented for us to go to Vegas. MR. GUAJARDO: relevant. MR. FORD: THE COURT: MR. FORD: BY MR. FORD: Q. A. Please continue, Ms. Esquivel. They rent -- their promise was to get me the It's -Overruled. Thank you. Objection. It's not

transportation up there for the six councils or anyone else I could pick up to go and vote. MR. GUAJARDO: established, Your Honor. THE WITNESS: THE COURT: And the paperwork -Wait. There's been no promise

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MR. FORD:

Hold on. Objection. There hasn't been

MR. GUAJARDO:

any foundation for any promise having been made by national LULAC or any of the defendants. THE COURT: All I've heard is that national

LULAC paid for the vans, unless I just missed something. MR. GUAJARDO: No. She's saying that the

reservations were made for these vans and they're coming from her grandson -THE WITNESS: MR. GUAJARDO: No, no. -- and that somehow there was

a promise that national LULAC, Mr. Moran or the other national president, had promised to pay for these vans. BY MR. FORD: Q. Actually, if you could turn to the second page of

the exhibit. A. Q. Yeah. And you look at the top, there's a reference to

Luis R. Vera, Jr. A. Q. Yeah. And if you read -- and can you see that it says

"LULAC National General Counsel, Attorney At Law," et cetera? A. Q. Um-hmm. Was this communication from him or -480.227.4077 www.TAtrans.com TRUAUDIO TRANSCRIBERS, LLC

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A.

He was -- it was a communication from him that he

had rented the cars and for us -Q. Had he rented them, or was he merely saying "Just

get them and I'll pay you back"? A. We were supposed to pick them up, and then they

would pay it back to us. Q. A. Q. A. When you say "they," you mean -When we went up there. Okay. But you --

So we paid when we picked up the cars. MR. FORD: Um-hmm. Your Honor, there's no

MR. GUAJARDO:

connection between or any authority established that Luis Vera somehow is authorized to bind the national LULAC office. He simply made reservations according to their They then picked up the cars, used them, and

own exhibit.

you know, now they're saying that national LULAC should pay for it. THE COURT: What I -- what I understand

these exhibits to show is the car reservations were made. There's nothing on these exhibits so far -MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT: agreement to pay. MR. GUAJARDO: Right, but she's saying that So far.

-- this exhibit, that shows any

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national LULAC was somehow bound by Luis Vera's -THE COURT: yet. I mean, they haven't been moved

But, you know, I think the exhibits are admissible

for purposes of showing the car rental reservations were made. MR. FORD: Reservations were made. And at

least some connection with Luis Vera, LULAC national general counsel. And I'm trying to elicit testimony with

regard to that -- with regard to what's the connection, why is Luis' name here in this e-mail. THE COURT: BY MR. FORD: Q. e-mail? Ms. Esquivel, why -- why is Mr. Vera in this What's the connection? Can you draw that out for Proceed.

us, please? A. Yes. His job was to make sure that the vans were

rented for the election, thinking that I was on their side. Q. vans. A. Q. A. Okay. Meaning -- and this was for -- there's six

Are these all Tucson -Tucson. -- people? Yeah. They were Tucson. Five were from Tucson,

and one was from the Phoenix council. Q. Right. In the pleadings, because they were under
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your leadership, I've sort of, for the sake of easy comprehension, called them "the Tucson councils" to distinguish them from others we've referred to in this litigation. So I recall that, and we've discussed that in But -- so that's the connection?

the pleadings. A. Yes.

MR. FORD:

Okay.

So move to admit.

MR. GUAJARDO:

Objection, Your Honor.

Again, there's no connection that Luis Vera has bound national LULAC and/or Oscar Moran or Margaret Moran, national president. Simply making a reservation as an

attorney does not then become a promise to pay, Your Honor. THE COURT: The objection -She was aware that they were

MR. GUAJARDO: not going to pay.

As she said, she was no longer going to

be -- according to her own testimony, not going to be supportive, so they were not going to be paying for these vans. But, again, it's Luis Vera's actions which have no connection to show that he had authority that was binding to national LULAC as a defendant. THE COURT: I understand that. The

objection is noted, but I think all this exhibit shows is that the vans were reserved and paid for by Mr. Cordero,
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and that's admissible. MR. FORD: THE COURT: to that step yet.

So they're admitted. Okay. Thank you, Your Honor.

Mr. Guajardo, he hasn't gotten

MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT:

Okay.

I understand what you're saying.

He hasn't gotten to that step yet. MR. FORD: finished. Thank you. THE COURT: break. Okay. Why don't we take a Okay. Direct examination is

We'll come back in about ten minutes. MR. FORD: Thank you, Your Honor.

(Proceedings were at recess from 10:51 a.m. to 11:09 a.m.) THE COURT: We're back on the record.

Mr. Guajardo, are you ready to cross-examine? MR. GUAJARDO: Yes, I am, Your Honor.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. Ms. Esquivel, when did you start back in? You

said you had kind of stopped your participation in LULAC. When did you come back to LULAC as an ongoing active member?
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A. Q. A. Q.

The -- 2013. All right. And how long were you absent?

I'd say I was probably absent for 15 year or so. And you said that as part of your active

participation when you were active, you were the -correct me if I'm wrong -- you said you were now -- you're now the past national president for youth; is that right? A. Q. Young Adults. Young Adults. That's right. And there's a

designation of Young Adults because of the age category; is that right? A. Q. A. Yes, sir. And what is that age group? Yes, sir. It's mostly for college -- going into

college preparations. Q. All right. And as part of your participation as

a national president for Young Adults, you would -- you would make expenditures on behalf of LULAC for expenses associated with your office; is that correct? A. I -- the -- young people could not help, but we

would find ways to raise the money. Q. But when you did an activity as part of your

office, you were able to do that, but you had to seek prior approval from LULAC -A. No.
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Q. A.

-- in order to bind LULAC for expenses, correct? Young Adults, being that it was the first one, me

and David would go to the universities around the Arizona area, okay, and we built them at the universities. Q. But my question goes to -- were you able to make

expenses to -- for example, if you had to make a trip to organize a Young Adults group, LULAC would -- first you would seek approval for that expense, right? A. I would not ask LULAC for approval because at

that point I was able to pay the airfare for me and David myself. Q. Okay. But there were expenses where you would

have to obtain approval, correct? A. At that point, no. Me and David were the only

ones that were running around, arranging it to make it become a reality. Q. A. But you would have to raise money, right? No. At that point I was financially stable to be

able to foot me and David. Q. All right. So now, if you -- for example, in

your capacity as past national president, if you were to incur an expense as part of your office -- I'm not talking about before; I'm talking about now -- you would have to seek approval in order to make an authorized expense; isn't that true?
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A.

I don't know by what rules they're going by now, But it might -- at that

being that I hadn't been around.

point I was able to do it for me and David by my own financial. Q. But I'm not asking about what happened 15 years

ago or -- I'm asking about whether you know for today, in the year 2013, whether or not a national officer or some other officer or anyone that makes expenditures on behalf of LULAC, whether or not that person has to get approval first before they can bind LULAC? A. Like I said, I don't know what are the rules

right now. Q. A. Q. Yes or no? Do you know or not?

No, I don't know now. Now, were you aware that Miguel Zazueta was not a

member in good standing when he sponsored those councils because he hadn't paid his dues? MR. FORD: THE COURT: BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. A. Q. A. Yes or no? Was I aware? Yes, ma'am. I didn't know. And I've never met Mr. Zazueta, Were you aware or not? Objection. Overruled. Foundation.

to tell the truth.
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Q.

All right.

The other contention, as I understand

it, is that there was some conspiracy or some strategy to keep some people from participating as delegates because they were not supporting Margaret; is that correct? A. Q. Yes, sir. And you're basing it on one meeting that happened We're talking about the national

prior to the convention.

convention or state convention? A. Q. State convention, sir. At the state convention. That's when you said

that this strategy meeting happened; is that correct? A. Q. Yes. And we're talking about the convention that

happened in Tucson, Arizona -A. Q. A. Q. Yes. -- for state office [ inaudible ], correct? Yes. And it's my understanding you fully participated

as a delegate, correct? A. Q. A. In the state? In the state level. I was considered a delegate, but we never went

through the process of registering people the way they normally do in the past. Q. My question was: Were you allowed to participate

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as a delegate? A.

Yes or no?

I was allowed to eat and sit there, but we never

really voted. Q. All right. Well, you were given a delegate badge

and a ribbon, correct? A. No. Because, like I told you, they gave me the

stack of papers just to put our names on -Q. A. Q. Okay. -- as delegates or whatever. Well, you were given a stack of papers that said

delegates, and you handed them out to your people, correct? A. Yeah. But I didn't go through proper

registration like we're supposed to do. Q. Well, I understand that, ma'am. My question is:

You were allowed to participate as a delegate -A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yes, I was. -- and you were given papers, correct? I was, yes. Is that a yes? Yes. Now, it seems that you're here today to say that

other people somehow, according to you, were not given their right as a LULAC member, unquote. said on your direct testimony. That's what you

Is that a summary of what

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your testimony is? A. Q. A. Q. It's not only a summary. It's --

Well, I'm asking you whether or not --- I know for a fact that they did not. You said -- and correct me if I'm wrong -- "they

were not" -- "they" meaning these individuals who were excluded as delegates -- "were not given their right as a LULAC member." you said? A. Q. person. Yes. And you said you're not -- you're not a legal You don't contend to know the constitution. Is Do you agree that's at least part of what

that when you said that you didn't have legal -- you're talking about you didn't know the legal ramifications of the constitution and bylaws? A. Being a past national president, sir, and at the

time, LULAC has always been -- I kept up with LULAC whether I've been a member or not. Q. But you're familiar with the constitution and

bylaws of LULAC, are you not? A. Q. Yes, I am, sir. All right. Then you're familiar with

Exhibit 15 -A. Q. Unless they changed them. Do you have Exhibit 15 there?
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Can you look at

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Exhibit 15 that's in evidence. sorry. Go ahead. MR. FORD:

And it states -- oh,

Are we still on 15, Counsel? Exhibit 15.

MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT: evidence. MR. GUAJARDO: Exhibit 15. THE WITNESS: MR. FORD: paper. MR. GUAJARDO:

Exhibit 15 is not yet in

Okay.

Let me just look at

This is 14.

It's more than just one piece of

It's a big exhibit.

Your Honor, Counsel and I have stipulated to its admission. THE COURT: 15 is admitted by stipulation. Yes, Your Honor.

MR. GUAJARDO: MR. FORD: BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. A. Q.

Thank you.

Do you have Exhibit -Yeah. -- 15? Look at page 4 of that exhibit. Do you

have that exhibit and page 4? A. Q. A. I'm sorry. Page 4. I can't find the --

At the bottom, it says page 4.

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THE COURT:

There's lowercase Roman numeral

BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. A. Q. Do you have page 4 now? Yes, I do, sir. Under Section 1, "General Members," and then

Section A, "Duties and Responsibilities" -A. Q. A. Q. Um-hmm. Okay. Um-hmm. -- it says, "to abide by the constitution and Yes, sir. Subsection 2 --

bylaws established by the national, state and district assemblies and their local council." A. Q. Yes, I do. So, as a LULAC member, you must abide by the Do you see that?

constitution, and that's part of your agreement when you join; isn't that true? A. Oh, yes. MR. FORD: Objection. Calls for a legal

THE COURT: BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. A. Q. Yes or no? Yes.

Overruled.

Now, if you look at above where it says Section 1
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and you look at the second sentence of that page, it starts and it says, "Membership in the league may be effected through individual-initiated application to a local council, the recommendation of a member in good standing," quote/unquote. That is, in fact, how membership is started or effectuated, isn't it? A. Q. Yes. And Miguel Zazueta had to be a member in good

standing in order to sponsor these councils; isn't that true? A. Q. He had to be, yeah. Now, you said you were present -- you were

present at the national convention, correct? A. Q. Yes, sir. And you were given rooms that were paid by the --

by LULAC, correct? A. Q. Yes, sir. In fact, David Hernandez gave up his room so that

you could have somebody else there in his room, correct? A. No, sir. MR. FORD: THE COURT: MR. FORD: speculation.
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Objection. What's the objection? It sounds like it's calling

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BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. Well, it seems to me that your main complaint

here, other than the votes of nonparticipating people that were supposedly allegedly excluded, is that you didn't get paid some money, correct? A. Q. Yes, sir. So -- so what you're saying is: Somehow LULAC

owes me money.

But you haven't established any basis for

why they should pay you any money, have you? A. Q. The agreement -What agreement? There is no agreement in front

of the Court. A. and Luis. Q. A. Q. A. board. Q. Ma'am, you're talking about somehow your request These are individuals -And Caroline Munoz. You're talking about individuals, correct? Those are people who are officers of the national Well, Mr. Hernandez, Mr. Mireles, and Oscar Moran

for reimbursement has been denied -A. Q. Sir --- and now you're saying that there was some kind

of an oral agreement by someone, but you have not established by what authority you're asking the national
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LULAC office to pay. These people, if they said anything, you haven't shown that they had authority to do anything on behalf of LULAC. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. It will be shown. They're individuals. It will be shown, sir. But you haven't done that so far, have you? Not now, but I -Okay. It's going to be shown. Let's go on. You also were present at the

national convention and participated as a delegate; isn't that correct? A. Q. Yes, I did. And you were not there -- you were there when

Domingo Garcia withdrew his candidacy; isn't that true? A. I was there, but you couldn't hear hardly

anything because people were tambourining, whistling, and everything, shutting the mic up. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Ma'am -And -- no. -- just answer my question. I was there, but I -Did you see and did you hear when Domingo Garcia
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got up in front of the national assembly and withdrew his candidacy? A. Q. A. Q. Yes or no?

Yes, sir. So you heard him withdraw his candidacy, correct? Yes, but it was at the far end. Thank you. And you're also contending -- correct

me if I'm wrong -- and let's talk at the -- first of all, let's talk about the state convention. You said you were present and participated and that somehow there was a meeting -- I don't know if it's the Pompeii or Senate Room -- the day before in order to somehow discuss how to transfer delegates from one council to another, correct? A. Q. You're talking about the Arizona state? Well, where is it that you're saying this

transferring was supposed to be discussed? A. That was -- that was at the Senate Room in

Las Vegas, but -Q. A. Q. Okay. -- in Tucson, they had a meeting. So now we're talking about the national

convention, correct? A. Yes. You went into the national. But the state

convention, they had a meeting a day before to strategize. Q. And this was for the state convention?
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A. Q.

Yes. Okay. So at the state convention -- correct me

if I'm wrong again -- you said there was some kind of strategy meeting to deprive them, meaning people that were not supporting Margaret, from voting, correct? A. Q. A. Q. The Phoenix and the San Luis, I did say that -Okay. -- were supposed to be deleted. All right. And was there any reason discussed as

to why they would not be eligible or they would be deleted from voting? A. The -- the reason was that they knew that they

were not supportive of the Morans. Q. A. Q. But you are aware --- according to the grapevine. You are aware that these councils were sponsored

by Miguel Zazueta, who was not a member in good standing at the time, correct? A. Q. A. Q. At that meeting, I -- they said that he was not. Okay. But --- is a reason that -- the constitution we just So that --

read says in order to be a member, you must be sponsored by someone who is a member in good standing. So if Miguel

Zazueta was not a member in good standing, these were not
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members that were properly sponsored, correct? A. Sir, he was a member in good standing -MR. FORD: opinion. THE WITNESS: THE COURT: THE WITNESS: standing according to me. THE COURT: MR. FORD: Wait. Did -Move to strike. Stop. Stop. -- because of the fact -Wait. Stop. Objection calls for legal

He was a member in good

MR. GUAJARDO: Nonresponsive, Your Honor. THE COURT:

Rephrase the question. Yeah.

MR. GUAJARDO: BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. he was.

According to your own opinion, you're saying that But you don't have any personal knowledge as to Yes or no?

whether he was or not, correct? A.

The reason -- the reason that I -- what they were They

saying -- and I do understand what they were saying.

stated Mr. Mireles said that they did get his check, but they were holding it to make sure that they did not get in -Q. A. Ma'am --- to be legal. And that's what he was saying.

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So, according to me at that point, being a past national person -Q. A. Q. Ma'am --- I felt he was legal. Are people required to pay dues in order to Yes or no?

remain to be members in good standing? A. Q. Yes, sir.

And there was no transferring of any alternates

as far as you're concerned because you said, "I didn't want to do that," correct? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Because that's not legal. But it wasn't done, was it, because it wasn't -No, but they were trying to force me. Ma'am -And I said no. It never happened, did it? No, because it was not legal. Just yes or no. No. You just told me you're not knowledgeable as But they --

It didn't happen?

legal in terms of the constitution and bylaws state as to whether transferring is allowed. Do you know whether, in Yes or no?

fact, the constitution allows it or not? A. Q. To me, under the -Yes or no? Do you know or not?
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A. Q. A. Q. A.

Well. Do you know whether the constitution -In order to answer it, sir --- allows for transfers? -- I have to tell you, according to me, how can I

transfer one of the Tucson person to Puerto Rico? MR. GUAJARDO: BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. Do you know whether or not the constitution Yes or no? Objection. Nonresponsive.

allows for transferring? A. Q. A. No, they don't.

In your opinion, correct? According to the bylaws in the past and I don't

know now what you got made. Q. You are familiar with the constitution and bylaws

of the League, correct? A. Q. A. Q. recently? I am. Okay. I used to be, unless they changed it drastically. Have you read the constitution and bylaws You said you haven't been active in 15 years.

Have you read them lately? A. Q. A. I -Yes or no? Can I explain why?
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Q.

No.

Just have you read and are you familiar with

the constitution and bylaws as they exist today? A. I barely received it yesterday, day before

yesterday. Q. A. Q. So your answer is no? No. The new ones, no.

Were you aware that Rick Dovalina, in fact, made

a motion to allow these same people that you said were not allowed to vote to be seated by the national assembly? That, in fact, occurred, didn't it? A. Q. Say it again. Rick Dovalina got up and went to the microphone,

which was very loud and everyone could hear, and he made a motion, which was recognized and it was seconded. And he

moved to allow all of these people that you said were excluded to be allowed to vote and be delegates at the national convention. A. Q. A. Q. motion? A. Q. A. There was -Did you hear the motion or not? I -- I heard another motion.
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That happened, right? No. Because --

Yes or no?

Did I know?

You were present the whole time? Yes, sir. Okay. And you didn't hear Rick Dovalina make the

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Q. order. A. Q. A.

I'm not talking about the motion for point of I haven't asked you that one. No, no, no. I'll get to that later. I'm talking about that specific issue, sir. And

There was a motion to exclude the Arizona delegates. that's when they stood up -- they had a stand-up vote. And that's when we tried to do point of order. Q. A. Q. Okay. If I remember distinctly.

The credentials committee -- is the credentials

committee the one that credentials the delegates for the national convention? A. Yes or no?

The credentials committee is the people who do

that, yes. Q. And there is a credentials report that is then

submitted for adoption by the national convention, correct? A. they did. Q. And the credentials committee decided that these So it's supposed to be done. I don't know what

individuals that you're talking about were not properly credentialed as candidates -- I mean as delegates, correct? A. Under the order of Mr. Moran, who decided who was
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who. Q. Okay. The credentials committee made their

revision and said these people are not properly eligible to be credentialed, correct? A. Because they didn't allow them to go through the

process at that point. Q. Okay. So then there was a credentials committee

report to the convention at the national assembly, correct? A. Q. No, there was not one that I can remember. You weren't present when the credentials

committee person made the report and then moved that the credentials committee report be adopted? weren't you? A. I was there, but what happened, it was a lot of You were there,

people that were saying that the -- when they go by state by state, the number of delegates that were there were not proper. So they told us to go back outside to the And then the congressional

credentials committee.

committee saw a big line, and they said let it go, and then they just went in and assumed -- they didn't correct it, sir. Q. Well, that is, in fact, the proper procedure.

When someone is not credentialed, they go outside again and petition the credentials committee again to be
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credentialed.

And they were denied again by the

credentials committee, and that's why they came back in, correct? A. No. They were not denied. They did not allow us

to talk to them because there was a big line a mile long of every state having a problem. Q. Okay. But the proper procedure is when

someone -A. Q. Yes, sir. -- is saying "I wasn't properly credentialed,"

you go back outside, and you get credentialed, and then you come back in, correct? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Yes. And that's what was done here? No. Yes or no? No. They went outside, and then they came back in? They went outside, but they did not get the

process that was due. Q. They didn't get certified as delegates even

though they went outside and tried to petition again? A. Q. A. They didn't give you a chance to do it, sir. Well, you said there was a line. There was a line, but they never took care of
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them because it was so long and it was taking their time. So they decided to go in and go through the election. Q. happened? A. Q. Not on my hearsay. That's what happened. And this is based on your hearsay that that

You don't know what, in fact, occurred individual

by individual with the credentials committee, do you, ma'am? A. Q. A. I was hearing everything, sir. Well, you said there was a long line. Well, I made sure I got further up to make sure I

hear because I'm nosy. Q. So if you were outside in a long line, then you

weren't inside listening to what was going on in the national assembly? A. Q. A. Q. A. It was in the hall right outside. I know. You could hear everybody. Well -And then they decided that they couldn't solve

the problem, and they told us -Q. A. Q. A. Ma'am --- we're not going to do it. -- there's a thousand delegates. I understand.
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Q.

And there's this huge national assembly, and then

there's several doors where you go outside to talk to the credentials committee. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. They only had one table, sir. It's a big space for a thousand people. Yeah, but -You could not be inside -I was not inside --- and participate inside and then hear what's

going on outside the hall. A. I was in the line, sir. I went outside, sir,

because I had discrepancy on my councils. Q. Well, your councils only had -- you only had,

according to what I understand -A. Q. involved. A. Q. Six. -- you just had a few of the people that were You didn't have over a hundred people, did you? No, sir. Okay. According to you, you said there were

seven that were not allowed, correct? A. Q. A. Out of my people I had there, I had, like -There was -Altogether, I had, like, 44 people. And 18 of my

people were alternates that could have voted -Q. Okay.
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A.

-- in another council.

And that's what they

wanted to do with my council. Q. correct? A. Q. A. Q. Well, they tried to force me. No. But you didn't use them, correct? Okay. But you didn't use the alternates,

Because I decided not to. Because the -- if you had done it and there was a

proper procedure in the constitution and bylaws, you could have had more delegates to participate if that had occurred, correct? A. Q. A. Not from my councils. I understand. Unless I had another charter. I wasn't going to

send them to Puerto Rico. Puerto Rico. Q.

I didn't have that person in

Ma'am, the whole idea was to get people to That's what you're saying?

participate, correct? A. Q.

Not to defraud the voting. Ma'am, but I'm not talking about any defrauding.

I'm asking -A. Q. A. Q. Well, that's what -I'm asking about --- I'm trying -- it's defrauding the voting. -- your personal knowledge.
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A. Q. A. Q.

But it's defrauding the -Ma'am --- the voting, sir. Well, according to you, you say that all -That hasn't been established

transferring is not allowed. yet.

You said you didn't even know the provision in the

constitution that allows for it. A. it there. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. We'll get to it. Show me the constitution -I'm the one asking the questions. -- when it says -- but, sir. That's the way it works. All I'm asking, show me where it says -We will get to that. -- to transfer people to Puerto Rico. We will show you that when we come to it. And Well, I don't -- show it to me, then, if you have

it's my turn to ask -A. Q. Then don't ask me the question until I see it. I haven't asked you whether we want to show you We're not ready for that right now. We

that right now.

will take that up at the proper time. A. Q. Okay. Okay. I'll accept that. So there was, in fact, a withdrawal of
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Domingo Garcia's candidacy, correct? MR. FORD: BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. so -THE COURT: BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. So there was no harm -- assuming that -- you're Sustained. You said that -- you've already said that it was, Asked and answered. Objection.

saying that why would Margaret somehow have anything to do with his withdrawal? A. Q. A. Okay. Say that he withdraw. It did --

He didn't withdraw. Okay.

You said that he -They did not give us a

Say that he did.

choice to vote for another person that we could have voted. Q. A. want. Q. Ma'am, there was another candidate. In fact, And that's -There was another candidate --- taking away the right vote for whoever we

Domingo Garcia said, "I want all of my voters or who would have voted, I want them to support this other candidate." He switched, supposedly, and said "Please endorse -- I'm endorsing this other person." There was another candidate that ran. were there, weren't you?
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You

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A. Q. event? A. Q.

Yes. So you're saying that you missed that important

No, I did not miss it, sir. And it happened that an alternate candidate was

voted down as well, correct? A. Q. A. Q. A. Sir -Yes or no? -- you've got to understand. Margaret was voted -How can the Phoenix council that were denied to

vote and my delegates that were not allowed to come in and vote -Q. A. Q. A. Ma'am --- be able -- listen. Okay. -- to vote when they don't have a -- they're not

giving them the right to vote as the proper procedure of allowing the delegates. Q. And I'm putting that aside right now. Let's put

that aside, all this so-called whatever. withdrew his candidacy -A. Q. It doesn't -Just a minute.

Mr. Garcia

I haven't finished yet.

Mr. Garcia withdrew his candidacy, and you're saying,
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"Well, we were harmed because we didn't get to vote for him." A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Well -We didn't have to vote for him. -- he withdrew his candidacy. The purpose -Moran had nothing to do with that. It does. No. Because they blocked it. And the part, sir, is

when you go to the convention, you have a right to vote for whoever whether -- if we decided to put another person in, we -- but they were not allowed. vote. Q. A. Q. Okay. That's the purpose, sir. Okay. So the candidate withdraws and he doesn't They were denied to

run, you can still complain that you didn't get to vote for the candidate that withdrew? correct? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. No. Yes or no? Not a candidate that withdrew. Okay. The purpose was to vote for my choice. Let's move on. Let's move on. That's your testimony,

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There was an alternate candidate that ran in his place that he endorsed, correct? A. Q. Yes, sir. And that candidate lost, as well, even though he

switched all his votes to that other candidate, correct? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Sir -Yes or no? When you have a crooked -Margaret still won, right? When you have a crooked election -Ma'am --- and you're not allowing people to vote -MR. GUAJARDO: THE WITNESS: Objection, Your Honor. -- you can't get me out of

THE COURT:

Sustained.

You need -- ma'am,

you need to answer his question. THE WITNESS: THE COURT: THE WITNESS: to say yes or no. THE COURT: Your attorney will have a turn I'm trying. We know. But I don't say yes or no just

to follow up and ask follow-up questions. THE WITNESS: BY MR. GUAJARDO:
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Okay.

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Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q.

The people that went with you -Yes, sir. -- who were they, to the national convention? For the national convention -Who went with you personally? Huh? Who was with you personally that went with you? MR. FORD: Objection. Relevancy.

THE WITNESS:

Do I have to give you names?

If you give me the list, I'll give it to you. MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT: Well --

I'm going to overrule the

objection, but I'm not sure I understand what you're asking. Who was -- who was -MR. GUAJARDO: She said that she was able to

take her people and that somehow they were -THE COURT: So are you asking about her

delegates, or are you asking about who was actually -MR. GUAJARDO: Who did she take to the

national convention that were going to be participating. BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. A. Q. A. Who did you go with? Who did I go with? Yeah. I went with Donna Lopez.
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Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A.

Who is Donna Lopez? She is the president of one of the councils. Okay. Who else did you go with?

In our van, there was six of us. Let's talk about those six. It was Donna Lopez. Who were they?

It was --

Is she related to you? No, sir. Okay. Who else went with you?

The other person that was the driver was my son,

but he was not really participating. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Was he listed as a member of the council? Yes. He was? Yes. Okay. So who else was with you?

I had a couple of -What's his name? Christian Marroquin. I had Christian Marroquin.

I had -- Joseph, my grandson, did go with me, sir. Q. A. Q. A. Q. What's his name? Joseph Cordero. Joseph Cordero. Okay.

I was teaching him how to be a LULACer. All right. Who else?
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A.

I don't recall who else.

I can't give you no I

more names other than, you know, trying to guess names. don't know. Q. A. Q. A. Q. What's your son's name? My son? Yes. Gustavo Esquivel.

Were any of these individuals going to be renting

cars that you supposedly said were going to be reimbursed to you? A. Were renting cars? They were rented by the

national, sir. Q. A. Q. A. Q. No. But who had the car?

He -- Gustavo did drive our car. Your grandson? No. My son. So he was one of the ones that had a

Your son?

rental car, correct? A. Q. One of the rental cars. Who else had rental cars from your -- from your

delegation or whatever? A. Sanchez. Q. A. Oh, my God. I would have to -- one was John

There was, like -- I can't remember who. Okay. Yes.
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But you had at least six of them?

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Q. A.

And these were all with your people, correct? They were with the councils. Their job was to John Bernall

make sure to transfer these people. [phonetic] from up here. Q. A. Q. Okay.

I made sure there were good drivers. Okay. But the gist of the matter, these were all

individuals from your councils, correct? A. Q. The six councils. Right. The people that you said that went up

there, the six councils, correct? A. Q. Yes, sir. I tried to --

And they actually used this for transportation

while they were there at the convention, correct? A. Q. Yes, it was just used there at the convention. All right. Here is Exhibit 11. You were asked

about that. A. Q. counsel. A. Q.

Would you look at Exhibit 11.

Do I have it? You were asked about it on direct examination by

Yes, sir. Does that refresh your recollection as to who had

these cars? A. Who had the cars? Welcome to LULAC from the

National LULAC.

This is a cartoon about Mr. Moran.
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 up on. one.

MR. GARCIA:

I think I gave you the wrong

MR. GUAJARDO: MR. FORD: as to relevance. MR. GUAJARDO:

Exhibit 11.

I'm going to renew my objection

Your Honor, she was

questioned about it on direct. THE COURT: He can do that. THE WITNESS: BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. cars? A. Q. A. Q. Yeah. That was faxed to me by Luis. Does that refresh your recollection as to who had Yeah, sir. It's your exhibit he's following

Well, it says from Joseph Cordero. No, no, no, no. No. You said "Luis Vera" up there?

I'm talking about the first page of

Exhibit 11. A. e-mail. Q. So he sent you an e-mail saying these are the Yeah. Joseph Cordero was the one that gets my

rental cars that the six councils are going to use, correct? A. Q. Yes. That was from Luis, yes.

Ma'am, Exhibit 11, first page -480.227.4077 www.TAtrans.com TRUAUDIO TRANSCRIBERS, LLC

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A. Q. A. Q.

Yeah. -- it says from Joseph Cordero. No, sir. It came from Luis --

Well, according to this page, there is no Luis

Vera on there, is there? A. Q. A. Well, which page are you looking at, sir? The first page of Exhibit 11. Okay. Transportation for the councils. Here is

detail of each vehicle. Q. A. From Joseph Cordero, correct? Transportation of council. Yeah, the six

councils, yes, sir. Q. Okay. Luis Vera's name is not anywhere on this

e-mail, is it? A. Q. A. Q. It was sent -Yes or no? In the rentals, it is. Ma'am, the e-mail from your grandson, Joseph

Cordero, is the one that says that these are the rental cars that supposedly are going to be rented for use by these councils coming from your -- from your -A. Q. A. Oh, yeah. -- Joseph Cordero, right? But in the second page, it will show the cars,

who rented them.
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Q. A. Q.

And Luis simply just facilitated the reservation? Yes, sir. But he didn't -- he didn't -- he didn't obligate

himself or anyone else from LULAC to pay for these? A. Q. Oh, he did. According to you, you're saying he did. But

there's nothing that you can show us that -- that Luis Vera was either authorized to bind LULAC and/or that he was doing something that would bind simply by assisting in reserving these automobiles? A. Once you see the exhibits later on, it's going to

show how -- what was done, sir. Q. Okay. When you got to the reservation, each

person who goes to the reservation has to sign a contract, correct? A. Q. A. Q. correct? A. Q. A. Q. A. If the other person doesn't pay, yeah. Ma'am -- ma'am, yes or no? You sign -To pay? -- to pay, but they had -480.227.4077 www.TAtrans.com TRUAUDIO TRANSCRIBERS, LLC

They have to show a driver's license and -Sign a contract? -- sign a contract and -That obligates them to pay for the vehicle,

You sign --

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Q.

Thank you, ma'am. MR. GUAJARDO:

Thank you. We have nothing further of

this witness, Your Honor. THE COURT: MR. FORD: Redirect? Yes, sir. I'll do it

expeditiously so we can get this concluded before lunch. I'm going to ask the witness to go back to Exhibit 15, which is the constitution and bylaws of LULAC, page 4, just where Mr. Guajardo directed her attention earlier in the cross-examination. THE COURT: correct, Counsel? MR. FORD: the underlying document. THE COURT: You have it right there. Exhibit 15. It will be page 4 of You said Exhibit 15; is that

REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. FORD: Q. Do you have the page before you, ma'am. It's

page 4 of the actual constitution past those Roman numeral pages. A. Q. Okay. There is sort of one line and then a paragraph Could I ask you please to read

that starts "membership." that in its entirety.

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A. Q. A.

Whereabouts? Oh -Page 15? MR. FORD:

I don't --

May I approach? Yes, you may. Direct -We just -- I might have

THE COURT: THE WITNESS: MR. FORD: misspoken. here. BY MR. FORD: Q. A. Q. It's page 4.

I know.

So I'll get you there real quick

I'm just going to ask you to read that -Okay. -- paragraph, starting with the word It wasn't read in

"membership," in its entirety, please. its entirety before. A. Okay.

"Membership in the League may be

effected -- effected through individual-initiated application to a local council. The recommendation of a

member in good standing or in the case of certain types of memberships, stipulations in Section 3 and 4 below. Though the recommendations of a council is in good standing to a National Assembly or the National Board of Directors." Q. Okay. Thank you. I just wanted to clarify what

that paragraph really said.
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. FORD: Q. Okay.

The defense asked you when -- asked you whether Mr. Garcia withdrew his candidacy for president of LULAC during the assembly in Las Vegas, right? A. Q. Um-hmm. Do you remember when Mr. Garcia -- at what point

in time did Mr. Garcia withdraw his candidacy? A. At the point -- it was towards the end when he

saw that actually they were not going to go by the rules. MR. GUAJARDO: Objection, Your Honor. It

hasn't been shown they didn't go by the rules. the ultimate question here. THE COURT: Sustained.

That is

So when you say "the end," I mean, was it It

after the -- was it during the actual voting assembly? wasn't sometime prior, like a day or two prior? A. No, no, no.

It was --

It was during the voting assembly at

that time. of order.

And what happened, we were trying to get point They wouldn't set the microphone. They

wouldn't allow us to talk. Q. A. Q. And it was after that? After that. So after the -- they were -- essentially the

people running the assembly refused to seat the people from Arizona?
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A. Q. A.

Yes. Okay. Thank you. They were not following

Not only the Arizona.

the procedure -MR. GUAJARDO: Your Honor. THE WITNESS: given as a point of order -THE COURT: BY MR. FORD: Q. That's fine. I appreciate your answer. There Sustained. -- that should have been done Objection. Nonresponsive,

I'm going to ask regarding the vans.

was some questioning as to where the vans -- or what the vans were used for. how were they used? A. They were used to transfer the delegates and the They were used -- were they used --

people who were going up to the Las Vegas trip. Q. And then were they used in any other way, like

local transportation? A. No. They were parked there. And when we came

from Vegas, it went straight to the -- to the place where they had to be turned in. Q. Tucson? A. Yes, to Tucson, yeah, where -480.227.4077 www.TAtrans.com TRUAUDIO TRANSCRIBERS, LLC

So you drove them back to -- that would be

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Q.

Were the vans rented for any other reason or

used -- in Vegas, were they used for any other reason, like to go see Hoover Dam or -A. Q. A. Q. okay. No, no. -- some other -- go party on the strip or -No. All right. I was going to go back to exhibit --

We're going to walk back just a second to the We're just

Arizona -- prior to the Arizona convention.

going to -- I think this is -- we had testimony on this. I just wanted to really clarify. A. Q. Yes. -- was credentialed and seen as a member in good That Connie Martinez --

standing and Mr. Zazueta was not? A. Q. A. Q. Was not. And they come from the same -Company. Can you explain what they were from? Because I

don't quite understand it. A. They work for a name -- an agency which is a

nonprofit, which is PPEP. Q. A. Okay. PPEP is Dr. John Arnold. He's the director. He

has an office in Tucson, and Zazueta works at the San Luis office. And he paid for both of them.
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But, you know, you

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pay separate checks for each one of them. MR. GUAJARDO: Honor, as to he paid -THE WITNESS: I heard, sir. THE COURT: MR. FORD: to clarify that. Sustained. Okay. Sustained. We just wanted This is what I understood and Objection. Hearsay, Your

Thank you.

Pass the witness. Thank you. Thank you. You may step down.

THE COURT: THE WITNESS: MR. FORD: next witness?

Would you like to start with the

MR. GUAJARDO: witness not be excused yet. recall her in rebuttal. THE COURT:

Your Honor, we'd ask this I don't know if I'll have to

Okay.

Ms. Esquivel, you can So you may have to be

step down, but you're not excused. called to testify again. THE WITNESS: THE COURT: short. MR. FORD: short. THE COURT: come back a little early. No. Okay.

Do you have anybody that's

Unfortunately, not that

Why don't we break and we'll Let's be back at 1:15.

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Mr. -hour. Plaintiffs -witness? Honor.

MR. FORD:

All right.

Thank you, Your

(Proceedings were at recess from 11:54 a.m. to 1:24 p.m.) THE COURT: We're back on the record in

CV 2013-008731, Soto versus LULAC. Mr. Ford, are you ready to call your next

MR. FORD:

Yes, I am, Your Honor.

MR. GUAJARDO:

Your Honor, just as a

procedural matter, how much time does the respective parties have left? equally. THE COURT: I haven't been keeping track. Because we're going to divide it up

Two hours -- well, if we go even, I'd say Mr. Ford has about another half-hour to an hour. MR. FORD: THE COURT: Pardon me? I'd say you have about another

MR. FORD:

Okay.

I do have a question.

Do

the plaintiffs get more time since they have the burden of proof? THE COURT: How many witnesses do you have,

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. FORD: Q. record. A. Q. A. Q.

MR. GUAJARDO:

Your Honor, we're going to

use up all our time because we have substantial testimony. And I believe that was the agreement at the pretrial conference, that we were going to divide it up equally. THE COURT: MR. FORD: Okay. Do the best you can.

I'll do what I can, Your Honor.

Plaintiffs call Jose Soto. THE COURT: and be sworn by my clerk. JOSE ROBERTO SOTO, a witness herein, having been first duly sworn to speak the truth and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows: Mr. Soto, please come forward

DIRECT EXAMINATION

All right, sir.

Please state your name for the

Jose Roberto Soto. And where is your residence located? My residence is in Chandler, Arizona. Thank you. And, sir, if I could just hear about

your educational background briefly. A. Yes. I have an undergraduate and a master's from And I recently

University of Arizona in economics.

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graduated in May with a Ph.D. in applied economics from the University of Florida. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Okay. May of '13. May I offer my belated congratulations, Dr. Soto. I appreciate it. Now -- and then what else I wanted to ask as a

preliminary is please kind of tell the Court your involvement with LULAC, sort of your current involvement and historical involvement with LULAC. A. Absolutely. I neglected to say that I also have

been associates from Pima Community College where for about two years I volunteered with organizing the -- the Arizona LULAC conventions at Pima Community College from about 1999 to about 2001, more or less, with Anabella Estrada (phonetic) and that was that section. Then I moved forward with my education at the University of Arizona and went to Florida. And

recently, when I came back in about -- in about April of last year, I got involved with LULAC again and -- here in Arizona. Q. Thank you. So, as part of your recent

involvement, you became a member of LULAC? A. Q. Yes, I did. Okay. Yes.

And then did you attend the Arizona
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convention held in -- at the community college in Tucson? A. Exactly. I attended last year's state convention

in Tucson at my old alma mater at Pima Community College, the Desert Vista campus. And I got there at around 9:15 a.m. And I

was very, very, very glad to be back in my old campus and be back to say hi to my previous LULAC friends -- Anabella Estrada. I remember David and some of the other folks. It was very, very good to be back. I got there. this welcoming-home moment. paid the fee and -Q. A. Q. I was just going to ask --- received the badge. Go ahead. They recognized me. It was

Mari Alvarado.

I registered in the table,

I was just going to go ahead and ask those Did you register for that convention?

questions. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q.

Yes, I did. And you paid a fee? Yes, I did. Do you recall about how much that was? About $20. Okay. So you paid a fee. You registered. And

then did they credential you? A. They did. There was only one table, which was a And I did not see a credential
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registration table.

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committee table anywhere.

And they gave me a badge, told

me to write my name on it, write my LULAC council number, 1152. And I asked them explicitly if I was, with this And they said

badge, eligible to vote in the election. yes in no uncertain terms. Q. Okay.

And I was going to ask you that.

Were

you -- did you believe at that point you were qualified to vote? A. I was led to believe at that point, in no

uncertain terms, with no ambiguity, that I was allowed to vote. Q. I see. Okay. Did you, in fact, get to vote? Tell us about

Actually, let me back up.

the -- the witness earlier explained there is sort of a two-part process where there is, I think, the nominations and then the elections. Can you explain how -- were you -- were you able to vote in those? A. Well, being that I was not very familiar with --

with the process since I had been absent from LULAC conventions and LULAC activities for such a long time, I was coming back, as I said, very eager to learn about the process and try to continue advocating for Latino civil rights. And I got there and my -- I was just under
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the impression that I was able to vote and proceeded on with the day. I had all the requirements that are needed,

now that I'm more acquainted with the process, to vote. And there were two areas where people were sitting down. Q. A. Q. Let me -Go ahead. -- interrupt because I just want to establish Are you -- are you -- what

something I didn't ask before. council are you involved with? A. Q. council? A. Q. Yes, I do. Okay. 1152.

And do you have -- hold an office in that

I am the secretary. Go ahead. And if you're

Thanks.

continuing to describe sort of the voting process that day, please continue. A. Absolutely. So I got there, and I was there just

mingling with the folks and getting to know -reacquainted with the -- with the LULACers in Arizona. And there were two areas, one in a place where they had originally -- it seemed that they were originally going to have nominations and do some sort of voting; in another place, the cafeteria. there -480.227.4077 www.TAtrans.com TRUAUDIO TRANSCRIBERS, LLC

And when I got

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Q. A. Q. sketch -A. Q.

If I can stop you there. Go ahead. If the Court will allow, could you quickly

Absolutely. -- on the pad, with the Court's permission, what

you're talking about so we can have a better picture. A. I'm sorry that I'm going professorial on you. So

it's -- so -Can the Court -THE COURT: THE WITNESS: I can see. So there was -- at Pima

Community College Desert Vista campus, there was a designated area that seemed that that was the place where they were going to have the -- the election. And here was

the podium where they were doing speeches and round tables all around, all around. There was the cafeteria right here, and the registration table was here. Nothing else was there. I So I

happen to suffer from a good memory, and I realized.

come in here at 9:15, got credentialed, started walking around. The tables were full, by the way. And folks

that had started coming after 9:15 that I noticed -particularly the Phoenix folks, since I knew them most
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recently -- they started coming in, and they were being directed toward the cafeteria because it was full. that was the setup. They initially started holding nominations in this area, but apparently it was -- the capacity was overwhelmed by the attendees, and they proceeded to move to the -- to the cafeteria. Q. A. Sir, who did they move to the cafeteria? They moved -- they initially moved -- it appeared And

that they were directing the folks that were coming after I came in to the cafeteria, which were mostly the Phoenix delegations. Q. Okay. So were there many from the Phoenix -- let

me back up. delegations? A.

How do you know who is from the Phoenix

Because I returned from Florida after I finished

my dissertation in April, more or less, or late March just to volunteer -- since I was still on my scholarship, to volunteer to continue striving for Latino civil rights. And the folks that were there had been the folks that I had been doing advocacy here for Latino civil rights. A lot of them were advocating against racial And they're folks from that area, folks that

profiling.

had -- that were doing the work that is more or less stated by the mission statement of LULAC.
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Q. A. Q.

Okay. So I knew them beforehand because -So did you know -- did you recognize the people

who were being redirected to the cafeteria? A. Q. Yes. Yes.

And did you recognize them as being people from

Phoenix -A. Q. A. Q. A. Yes. -- and those types of councils? Almost exclusively. Almost exclusively? In fact, I don't remember anybody else that was

being directed to the cafeteria. Q. Okay. So -- so there's a bunch of people in the

cafeteria -A. Q. Yes. -- just to sum up. And they're almost

exclusively Phoenix people -A. Q. Yes. -- who you recognize because of your acquaintance

with them through your work with them? A. Q. Yes. And then in the other room that you described on

the left of your diagram there were other people? A. Yes.
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Q.

And then what was going on in that room with the

tables, those circles? A. They started holding nominations. They started

having some sort of a voting process.

I was -- I was here

with the folks in Phoenix since there was -- and when I came back to take a peek, they were having those kind of procedures in here. Q. A. Q. So you observed -Yes. Just to clarify, you observed some sort of voting

procedure? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yes. It looked like nomination procedures going on -Yes. -- in the room on the left? Yes. Are you aware -- do you have personal knowledge

as to whether the people in the cafeteria on the right had successfully been credentialed to vote? A. They had the same badge that I was given and the

badge that I was told very explicitly that it allowed me to vote in the state election. Q. A. Q. Okay. So yes. All right. So there's a group of people from -480.227.4077 www.TAtrans.com TRUAUDIO TRANSCRIBERS, LLC

So --

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largely from Phoenix whom you recognized from being from Phoenix in this cafeteria, this room on the right? A. Q. badges? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. All of them. Okay. Yes. And on the left -With their name, their LULAC council number. And how are they -- are they in any way -- the All of them had badges? Yes. All of whom -- did -- what proportion of them had

people on the right -- I'm just using your diagram for simplicity's sake -- on the right, the Phoenix people, to what extent are they involved in these proceedings that you observed in the room on the left? A. To the -- to a nonexistent extent. They were --

they were -- they came in. fee. Q. A. Q. A. They paid.

They paid their convention

And then they were directed to the cafeteria. Yes. And there was activities going on in here. And

that -- so they were probably not aware what was going on in here. Q. To what extent do you have personal knowledge of
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what went on in the room on the left with the tables? A. Maybe -- to a limited extent. Because I --

again, I saw the folks in here, and I came -- so I was sitting right here and came back to the cafeteria just out of curiosity and started seeing that they started nominating folks, it seemed. But, again, there was not a concerted effort to redirect the folks from the cafeteria to this sort of plenary where they appeared to be holding nominations. Q. Okay. So let's move to the afternoon when -- and

what kind of voting was going on in the afternoon? A. So these -- at this plenary where they had

started taking nominations, it seemed, the place was overwhelmed. So they forwarded everyone to the cafeteria,

everyone that was in here, the cafeteria. Q. A. election. Q. Okay. And that's what has been referred to as Okay. And there they proceeded to hold the statewide

the afternoon session? A. Q. Yes. Okay. And during that session -- were you

present for the entirety of that session? A. Q. Yes, I was. And in -- did you observe defendants following
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Robert's Rules of Order? A. Not at all. Not at all. What I observed was

something very -- so when they redirected everyone -everyone that was there had a seat, including the Phoenix delegations and including myself. down. Q. If I can jump in, did they somehow arrange enough We were all sitting

chairs for -A. Q. Yeah. They had somehow organized it so there were

enough chairs in there for the Phoenix -- the people you knew to be from Phoenix councils? A. Q. chance? A. From Phoenix, there was over 28 folks. I don't Um-hmm. Do you remember how many councils that was, by

recall, but there were -- there were over 30 -Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. chairs?
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Twenty-nine, thirty folks? Twenty-nine, thirty folks from Phoenix. Okay. So --

And from San Luis, Arizona. A significant amount of people. Yeah. And as to the people who were there, they had

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A. Q. A.

Absolutely. Okay. So everyone had a seat there. Everyone had a

seat there.

And all of the sudden, the moderator or the

person who was the chair of the state convention, they asked everyone to stand up -Q. Can I stop you, sir? Do you recognize or do you

happen to know who that state chair was who was moderating? A. Q. A. Mari Alvarado. Mari -Mari Alvarado, yes. Mari Alvarado took the

microphone and asked everyone to stand up, everyone -including the Tucson, everyone. all the delegates to stand up. They were sitting down -We all stood up. And

apparently they rearranged the seating according to councils. So they -- everybody stood up. on the side. And we stood

They called every single council except for

the Phoenix and San Luis councils. At that point, that -- that is when I approached personally the -- Anabella Estrada I think is the person that was holding the list of the -- of those who are quote/unquote credentialed to vote and asked, "What's going on? Where is my -- where is my council to
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sit there?" Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. So you approached a person -Exactly. -- and asked about why this voting -Yeah. -- is not happening? Yeah. Can you be more specific? The people from

Phoenix who you described before -A. Q. A. Q. A. Yes. -- were not being seated? Exactly. And what's the significance of being seated? Voting. If you're seated, you're voting. Everyone sitting down

So picture this:

except -- and everyone wearing the same badge, delegate badge, except for the folks in Phoenix and San Luis standing up, not even allowed a seat as a courtesy. We

had elderly folks that were there, women and children -women with their children not allowed to be sit down. And they sat down. And we all started to be

very curious and concerned about why is it that we're not allowed to sit down. fees. We had already paid our convention

I was explicitly told that I was already eligible And the only explanation they told us is
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that you're not credentialed by the credentials committee. Q. A. Okay. And so happened. At that point, the moderator,

Mari Alvarado basically -Q. Let me stop you, Dr. Soto. Do you happen to have

personal knowledge of Ms. Alvarado's position within LULAC? A. Q. I don't -- I don't have personal knowledge. But she was -- she appeared to be running this

part of the operation on behalf of -A. Q. A. She had the microphone. Thank you. Yes. And after that, even they were not giving

us clear answer about the status of our -- our delegate status or credential status. going on?" And at that point, the moderator seemed to be frustrated. And all of the sudden, she basically said, We started asking, "What's

"For all the LULAC council that are sitting down, we vote to elect the following list of people and list of positions by acclimation." and that was done. It took about one minute it took for everything to be done, after the folks that they apparently hand-picked delegates were sitting down, and
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And they voted in that way,

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they voted by acclimation, all the least of whom appeared to have been nominated in this area where we were not -where the Tucson -- where the Phoenix and San Luis folks were not -Q. A. Q. So, to summarize, they seated certain people? Yes. Seated being -- the significance of which being

that they would vote? A. Q. Yes. They did not seat you and the number you

described earlier of people from Phoenix and San Luis? A. Q. Um-hmm. And then after having that -- done that, they

simply conducted a vote they took by acclimation? A. Q. Yes. And who -- who -- just to be specific, who

participated in that vote? A. lasted -Q. A. Q. taken? A. It was not even that. To be honest, what it Who --- about a minute. Was it -- was it hand-raising? How was the vote Mari Alvarado is the one that called it. It

seemed to me, even by the folks that were sitting down,
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they were confused.

They were confused, and they were

just looking at each other. And by acclimation, they all kind of said -raised their hand or -- or -- or agreed by acclimation. don't remember if it was by raising hand. But they just I

remained silent and confused, just looking at each other. And in one minute, Mari Alvarado self-proclaimed all the list of folks they had -- they had apparently nominated here to be -- to be the next executive committee -Q. A. Q. A. Q. The state elections. -- or all the positions that they mentioned -Okay. -- at the statewide convention. Okay. So what -- if you -- to the extent you

recall, what proportion of the people in that room at that time were seated versus what proportion were standing, i.e. -A. Q. Forty percent seated, sixty percent standing up. And how do you come by that? Just your

observation? A. Q. A. Q. I happen -- I counted. You counted? Yes. I'm an economist. I look at numbers.

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A. Q.

Yes, I did. To back up, maybe we put the cart before the So you counted people --

horse here. A. Q.

Yes, I did. -- that were in the room. You counted the number

who were seated -A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yes. -- and the number who were standing? Yes. And you did the math in your head? Absolutely. And you come up with 40 percent seated? Yes. So the majority of people were standing, and that

majority were not voting? A. Q. Yes. And you recognized some proportion of those

standing as your -- as people who were members? A. Q. A. Oh, yes. Of LULAC? Yes. And I must say that there was confusion

both from the people sitting down and the people standing up. And the only thing that happened is one minute the --

Mari Alvarado just proclaiming acclimation and a blanketed approval of all the seatings that were in question.
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Q.

Okay.

All right.

Now we're going to move on to We're -- just

Vegas, which isn't -- excuse me a second.

one more question -- sorry -- about Arizona. Were any nominations left on the floor that you're aware of? A. No, not that I'm aware of. One more thing is that -- is that they alluded to someone from the -- next the moderator alluded to, "You were not in the credentials" -- "You are not credentialed," they told us. And at that point, we asked -- we inquired. Where was the credentialing committee, where was the credentials table? There was no response to that. So

there was no credential table, apparently, and -apparently there was no credential table. Q. Let me ask you this: In your past involvement

with LULAC to the extent -- you put on some conventions in Arizona, right, in the years past? A. Not the conventions but annual meetings at Pima

Community College. Q. A. Q. Okay. Was there voting at those meetings?

At the meetings, no. Okay. So -- okay. That's -- I will -- I'm going

to move on to Vegas and -- but between -- in time between I believe the Tucson meeting, the Arizona state
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convention, and the national convention were some court proceedings in this court. A. Q. Yes. If I may sit down now.

And did those court proceedings affect your

decision to go to Las Vegas? A. Q. A. Q. A. Something very interesting happened after Tucson. So is that -- I have to ask you yes or no. Okay. Yes.

And I'm going to ask you how. Those -- what happened in Tucson did two things.

The first one, that it made the delegates and the councils from Phoenix and San Luis realize that there was a -- an apparent collusion by a faction of LULAC that was excluding us from vote. There was -Objection. No foundation,

MR. GUAJARDO: calls for speculation. THE COURT:

Some kind of conspiracy. Overruled. He's just stating an

opinion based on what they knew. THE WITNESS: Yes. So there was an apparent And we were -- to

collusion or conspiracy to exclude us.

be honest, given that they had taken our dues for the convention and excluded us, we felt discriminated. We

felt there was a double standard, and we felt that we needed to do what we do, which is organize. So we got together, and we realized, all
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right -Q. So what did you -- so, with that idea in mind,

you -- did you -- what role did you have in terms of the people who went to Las Vegas -- and the number comes up as 147 from I believe Phoenix or other parts of Arizona. I'm going to ask you first: How does that -- how did And

you -- how does that number -- where does that number come from? A. question. Q. A. Please. All right. So two things happened out of Tucson. If I may answer that after I answer your first

The first one, we realized that we needed to -- to be aware of that, that there was an apparent -- for us, from what we knew at that moment, there was an apparent collusion or conspiracy against us. The second thing that happened out of that is that we came to this Court, to this Court, to try to get justice and clarity for what happened in Tucson. And

combining those two things, there was a -- there was a -a suggestion by this Court that the national -- that there was ambiguity in the procedures that happened in Tucson and that it was strongly advised for the national LULAC to not do it again. From -- the way that our group interpreted
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that is in the following way:

We -- we were in

communication, and we interpreted it in the following way: That there was a -- there was -- there was not -procedures were not followed in Tucson. cheated us in Tucson. Namely, they

And that the court -- this Court --

and I'm not an attorney -- this Court suggested that they don't cheat us in the national. And we felt -- to be honest, we felt shielded by that. what? We felt that, all right. You know what? You know There's --

Let's move forward.

they -- let's get -- let's get together and go to Las Vegas, because now they learned a lesson. We got --

there was a -- there was a strong suggestion by our court that we're not going to be -Q. A. If I may jump in. -- cheated again. So we went -- we got together, Go ahead.

and we went to Las Vegas. Q.

My recollection is the court urged defendants to

follow their own -- follow due process in the -A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. And allow us to vote. Right. And allow us to vote in the national convention. That's right. Yes. Now, so you went to the convention in Vegas.
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did -- there was -- there was a number of councils. was -- who went from this area.

There

And were you sort of --

what was your role in guiding them or helping them through the process? A. After Tucson, there -- we were in communication And there

and we got together, the different councils.

was not a nomination of me being their leader of the other councils, but they did look up to me for guidance. They'd

look up to me for -- especially after the court ruling, and I was part of the plaintiffs that were part of the court ruling. advice. And what I advised -- and I knew everyone there -- is that we went to Las Vegas and that now we were going to be shielded by this court. And when they got there, we organized together again because, again, the first thing is there was an apparent collusion or conspiracy against us. So we They looked up to me for guidance and

knew everybody, and we did a head count in Las Vegas -Q. A. Okay. -- on the 21st of June. And there was 147 folks

with 38 councils represented. Q. Okay. Now -- thank you for that. Now, go ahead.

If you would please explain your efforts to get registered and credentialed.
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A.

Yes.

I arrived in Las Vegas on the 19th and

along with four other LULACers from all four other councils: Michael Guerrero, Yolanda Medina, Manuel

Saldana, and two other folks. And when we got there, I was allowed to register, I was allowed to be credentialed, and the other folks were not. And that was a big red flag. It was a

big red flag for us. Q. A. Q. Okay. Okay. I've got to -- unfortunately, we're on the clock, So -- we're going to stick --

so -- and I appreciate your thoroughness, but I need to -A. Q. Tone down the academic and the details. Sorry.

Just to clarify, you registered at the same time And you were put

as these others, 146 or so, 147 or so.

through the process, registered and credentialed? A. I did -- I got registered and credentialed on the

19th and the other folks on the 21st. Q. A. Were they ever credentialed, though? No. When we got there -- the 147 folks arrived We all went to the line.

more or less at the same time. I knew that procedure.

So I was guiding them through.

Again, they were looking up to guidance and advice from me given the Tucson experience. process.
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And I got them through the

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But when we came -- and they did register because there were two tables in the national, registration and credentialing table. They did register,

but when it came time to go to the credentials committee, they were rejected. Q. A. Q. They were rejected from --

Let me stop you for a second -All right. -- because I need to throw this question in. Were any of these -- the folks from Phoenix

ever guided into the Senate Room? A. Q. No, they were not. It was your testimony earlier there was this like

one room off to the side somewhere where people were ushered through and it was a breeze to get in and they got credentialed -A. Q. No. -- and got T-shirts and so forth. So no one from the Phoenix group that you're aware of -- or you didn't go through the Senate Room -A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. No. -- and go through that sort of expedited process? No. I wasn't -- no.

You were in the second class -Yes. -- so to speak?
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So, just to clarify, with regard to registering 147, does that mean LULAC took their money? A. Q. Yes. So they took their money, registered them. And

did they credential them to vote? A. Q. No. Did they ever get the red ribbons, I think it

was, in Vegas -A. Q. A. No. -- to vote? What they did get is a credentials committee that

closed two hours before the advertised time of closure on the 21st. Q. A. So they got cut off? They got cut off two hours before. And there's

videotape of us.

And the explanation or the reason why

they closed two hours before is that they said they felt overwhelmed. I don't know exactly what that means, but what it means for us is they did not allow us the time advertised to attend the credential committee table. Q. When you say "overwhelmed," did they -- did

somebody tell you it was overwhelmed? A. That was a word that was used by someone that was

in the -- by the person that was heading the credential
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committee table. Q. A. Q. A. And that's your observation? Yes. Okay. Thank you.

Because I was guiding our folks through the

process at the credential committee table given that I had been through that already. Q. All right. Now, did you -- what steps did you --

did you and the 147, if we can put you -- can we put you and the 147 in a group, so to speak, for the purposes of appeal? A. Q. I would. So were you present during the attempts to those

in the appeal process? A. Yes. After they closed down the credential

committee table, to be honest, it was a flashback to what happened in Tucson. It was a flashback to what happened

in the state convention because, once again, it was apparent to us, given the knowledge that we had at that moment, that there was a second -- there was a collusion or conspiracy against us. Q. A. Q. Let me -Go ahead. When the credentials table -- when the So we --

credentials table closed because they were overwhelmed,
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quote/unquote, did any one of them guide you to say, "Well, you can always appeal this"? A. Did they --

They started -- so we inquired to speak to the

head of the credentials table, and they threw us -- they referred to us to another person and to another person and to another person. And all of the sudden, we requested to

speak to the executive director, Brandon Wilkes. Q. A. Okay. And we spoke to him. There's videotape of this.

We interacted with him, and we told him, "What's going on? This happened to us in Tucson. Judge Herrod." us. The executive director told us there's a legal opinion -- there's a legal opinion by the LULAC attorney, Escobar, that says that -- that you're all excluded because one of the co-sponsors was not in good standing when they co-sponsored their councils. And then we asked him, "Is there a recourse to this?" Well, first of all, we asked him, "Why is it It was a court order by

Tell us what's going on here, explain to

that you're closing the LULAC -- the credential committee early?" And no answer to that. And then we asked, "All right. re -- can we appeal this?" They said, "Of course. Come tomorrow Is there a

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morning on the 22nd, and there's -- the credentialing committee holds an appeals for credentialing before the convention, and you can appeal it there." Q. Okay. Now, did -- when Mr. -- I think it's

Wilkes discussed this legal opinion, were you shown the legal opinion? A. Q. A. Q. No. I requested it.

Did you request it? I requested it, and it was not shown to me. You did -- let me ask. You did request it, and

the answer was yes. And your response to your request to see it was? A. Q. No. Did they -- to clarify, did they say, "We're not

going to show it to you," or they didn't have it or -A. I'll be very honest with you, and there's The executive director failed --

videotape of this.

failed -- confined in whatever he expressed to us and -and simply brushed off the questions -MR. GUAJARDO: Honor. THE WITNESS: THE COURT: MR. FORD: -- from my -Sustained. All right. Sustained. I'm going to rephrase Objection. Speculation, Your

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the question. BY MR. FORD: Q. What I'm asking is: When you asked to see the

legal opinion, what was the response? A. and -Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Were you shown the legal opinion? No, we were not shown the -Have you ever seen the legal opinion since -No. -- at that time, the next day, or since then? No. Okay. No. That's what I wanted to clarify. So let's turn to the 22nd, the national assembly. And if you can tell me, did the Phoenix folks, Evasive, and we did not get a clear response

the 147, can they try once again to get credentialed? A. We got together. We caucused after another

apparent collusion from our point of view, the information we had at the time. super early. there earlier. So we got there early. convention on the 22nd super early. We got there to the Folks made a And we We're And we said we're going to get there We're going to get

They open up early.

sacrifice -- made a sacrifice to wake up early. were there, rise up and shine in the morning.
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there.

We got up in line.

There was a very, very, very

long line, about 400 people, to get into that -- the national convention. We were there. And when our -- when it got

turn -- time for our folks to go through the -- through the -- may I illustrate it? Q. Yes. THE COURT: THE WITNESS: the -- the assembly. BY MR. FORD: Q. A. All right. The assembly. And this is the -- there's a -And they had a roadblock or All right. Briefly. The 22nd, this is

it's a hallway, the assembly.

a filter -- a filtering roadblock, for lack of a better word, right here with private security. And no one without a delegate ribbon was allowed -- there's no access here. No one is allowed, and So no one was

the line of people were basically here.

allowed beyond this roadblock without a delegate ribbon. And the credentials committee to appeal the lack of the credentials was inside -- was beyond this roadblock. In fact, it was right here at the entrance of

the assembly, as I recall. So it was very -- so, according to executive
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director, we could appeal it on the second -- on the next day if you were not credentialed; but, then again, you were not accessed to be past this roadblock with private security to appeal your credentials. So our 107 -- our 147 folks, our group, was not allowed to come here and appeal it. What happened then is that they -- they -they -- everybody concatenated their files. And again,

looking up to me for leadership and guidance, they said, "Beto, we're going to" -- or "Dr. Soto, could you please help us appeal this, because we cannot physically come through the roadblock to come and appeal it in the credentials committee." What I did at that point, I told them, "Hold off." I went to the credentials and tried to get someone

from the credentials committee to come talk with them at the roadblock. They were not allowed to have that. So I took all their files and came and tried to appeal it. Q. And it was a moot point, to say the least.

Did you then try to appeal that -- that inability

to get a resolution from the credential table to the national assembly? A. I'll be honest with you. I was there. I tried

to talk to everyone.

I was holding Judge Herrod's ruling

and suggestion that they allow us to be credentialed and
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allow us to vote. And I spoke to the credentials committee, and then I went and spoke to everyone that was in the executive podium, the vice president of the southwest, the vice president for -- just trying to talk to anyone who could listen to me, with the files carried on my shoulder, Judge Herrod's suggestion on hand. And everyone just

giving the cold shoulder, cold shoulder, except for a former LULAC president, Dovalina, who took the initiative to request -- to make a formal request to -- to withdraw the legal opinion of Escobar. took -Q. So are you saying -- let me put it in the form of Was there a vote to withdraw that legal He's the only one that

a question.

opinion that was essentially a major component of -conceptual component of that roadblock? A. Q. A. Q. Yes, by former LULAC president Dovalina. Okay. And that's Dovalina?

I believe so. And can you explain what you saw or observed in

terms of how that vote was carried out? A. Absolutely. The -- at that point, the

credentials committee did not listen to our appeals, and they -- actually, the credentials committee might have been closer to the -- to the podium.
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. FORD: Q. Okay.

And -- but -- and -- and at that point, they -- what they did is that they submitted a report they have, and they were going to vote on it, a report of everybody that got credentialed. on it. They were going to vote

They were going to move on it. And he -- he -- he did request that -- the

request -- I need to say something before the request was granted. One of the people that was in the podium were -MR. GUAJARDO: Your Honor, I think this has

gone beyond answering the question. THE COURT: Sustained.

So I'm going to -- let's -- let me ask

some questions. So the process of voting, there is a -- was there a vote to -- to, I guess, set aside the legal opinion so that -- so that the Phoenix -A. Q. Yes. -- group would be able to vote? And was there -- was there a -- was the vote actually taken? A. vote. The vote was in the form of -- of a stand-up And I had the opportunity to come up to the podium And there was not a clear majority either

and observe.

way in the stand-up vote.
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Q.

Okay.

Okay.

Hold on.

Let me get to that.

So

were there -- did -- you were in the assembly room during these votes, correct? A. Q. judge? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. No. Did you observe any timekeeper? No. Did you observe three official counters? No. Okay. Thank you. So these -- those sorts of Yes. Was there -- did you observe a -- an election

personages who were required under one of these rules that they came up with for this meeting, 2013, for this convention, they -- they -- you didn't see those people called for in the rules? A. No. Only Chairman Rocha, I believe, presided

over the vote. Q. Okay. Let me ask you this: Was there a

roll-call vote? A. Q. A. No. And I requested --

Was there a show-of-hands vote? I made formal request for a roll-call vote after

there was a very, very perceived ambiguity in -- in the majority either way of the stand-up vote.
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Q. A.

Not surprising -And it was not even taken into consideration. It

was dismissed. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. So was there a roll-call vote taken ultimately? No. Was there a show-of-hands vote taken ultimately? No. Was there a secret ballot -No. -- taken ultimately on that issue? The answer being no? A. Q. Yes. Were any of the -- did you observe whether any of

the 147 Arizona delegates were seated inside the assembly room? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. No. Only about 10 percent were allowed through. So 14 or 15 --

Only 10 percent. Yes. Yes.

-- were allowed through that you recognized -Yes, that I recognized. -- as these people? And you saw no one else let through?

A. Q.

No. Was there an observation area that you were aware

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A. Q.

No, there was no observation area. Were people who were credentialed -- it sounds

like a lot of -- if I'm doing the math, 130-something people were not credentialed from Phoenix. Were any of

them brought in or allowed into any sort of observation area so they could watch the vote? A. No. They was disrespectfully just allowed to

linger outside of this roadblock that I've described. And after two hours, the hotel management came and gave them a little room without any observation via TV or anything about the procedures. there. There's pictures of it. And they stayed

They were just -- some of

them were kind of dozing off and sleeping because they really wanted to be inside. And after a while, they just

started to trickle out after hours and hours of just staying there. Q. Do you believe that the LULAC organization

followed due process in the credentialing and -A. No. MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT: THE WITNESS: MR. FORD: THE COURT: let's talk timing. Objection, Your Honor.

Overruled. No.

Pass the witness. Before you start, Mr. Guajardo,

How much time are you going to need?
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How many witnesses do you have? MR. GUAJARDO:

I'm thinking --

I've got two that I want to

use and I want to call back Cora Esquivel. THE COURT: And how long -Our witnesses are going to

MR. GUAJARDO:

take all the time that I have. THE COURT: schedule another time. MR. GUAJARDO: I'm not sure, Judge, but I'm I'm just wondering if we need to

going to need all the time that I have. THE COURT: MR. FORD: And what do you have left? Me? I have two witnesses who

would be quite short and then -- and then Mr. Garcia, who I believe will take a little longer. Not as long as I did

Ms. Esquivel, but maybe more of a time frame like Mr. -like Dr. Soto. THE COURT: Would it work for you guys to

come back a day -- half a day next week to finish? MR. FORD: It would work for me. My client --

MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT:

Well, and given -If we're going to do that, My client --

MR. GUAJARDO: then we need a longer period. THE COURT:

Well, on the caveat that I would

let you take -- call witnesses out of order if you have
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out-of-town witnesses today.

So if your client needed to

testify today, you could do that and we could finish another day. MR. GUAJARDO: Honor. Well, it's not that, Your

We're probably going to end up having to call

additional witnesses besides the ones that are here because it seems to me that -- you know, they have seven people that they're going to call. And so, based on that,

I think that, you know, we probably should -- if we continue it, we should continue it for a longer term so we can both have adequate time to be on notice -- that and then not have to go through what we're going through now and cut it short. But I think that would probably be more in the interest of time [ inaudible ], you know, giving both sides adequate time. So, you know, it looks like they're

going to need -- they're going to need most of today, and we haven't been able to put on our case yet. So, I don't know. I think I would rather --

if we're going to continue it, we should be given more time, both sides given more time. MR. FORD: THE COURT: No objection to that. Okay. So just as we go forward

today, I'm inclined to think you're going to need more than just today.
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Honor.

MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT:

Today?

More than just today. Yes, Your Honor.

MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT:

And we'll quit at 4:30 in time

to talk about when the next hearing date is going to be. But I just wanted to throw that out rather than -- I can tell where we're headed. We're starting to rush.

Mr. Soto is able to testify quickly, but I'm not convinced everybody else will be. MR. FORD: That's a fair observation, Your

MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT:

Okay.

Go ahead, Mr. Guajardo.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. All right. Mr. Soto -- by the way,

congratulations on your Ph.D. again. A. Q. Thank you. There's a lot of things that you said that appear You said that there was no due process.

to be opinion.

Can you cite anything in the constitution specifically that you're relying on for your opinion? A. Q. I need more details. Tucson? National? What?

Let's start with Tucson for example.
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You were

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allowed to participate as a delegate of the Tucson convention -- you said so yourself -- is that correct? A. Q. That's incorrect. You were not allowed to -- to participate and

vote at the Tucson convention? A. Q. A. Yes. You were not? I was not allowed to vote and participate as a --

as a delegate in the Tucson convention. Q. Okay. And what was the reason that you were

given for not being allowed to vote? A. You need to ask the convention organizers of

Tucson why they did not do that. Q. No. I'm asking if you were given a reason. I'm

asking you if you had a reason you were given. A. I had the opposite of that. I was told that I

was going to be allowed to vote in the Tucson convention and -- the Arizona convention. And when it came down to And I was told

be seated as a delegate, I was not seated. I was not credentialed. Q. And at that time --

Let's stop right there.

You were told that you

were not properly credentialed, correct? A. After I was told that I was properly

credentialed. Q. Yes or no? Were you told that you were not
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properly credentialed? A. Q. Yes.

Yes or no?

And you're aware that LULAC allows everyone, even That doesn't

nonmembers, to register for the convention. necessarily mean that they get to vote. that? A. Q. Yes.

Are you aware of

For example, I register as a VIP and was there at Did you see me there?

the national convention. A. Q. I don't recall.

You were not aware that I was sitting in the

observation section that you said was nonexistent as a VIP? A. Q. I don't recall. You didn't see me there? Were you aware that

there was an observation section that I was sitting in -A. Q. I was not aware of that. -- and I was a VIP? I had my VIP badge. You

didn't see me there? A. Q. No. I saw you there. So there was an observation

section, wasn't there? A. Q. A. No. The -According to you, there wasn't?

Yes or no? Yes.

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Q.

And you understand that you can register -You're aware of that, correct?

anyone can register? A. Q. Yes. [ Inaudible ]

can go to the LULAC convention and

register, right? A. Q. Yes. And just be there as an observer or guest. He

doesn't get to vote; he's not a member, correct? A. Q. Yes. And it's not uncommon that there be receptions

before the elections and the other business simply just to get to know people? A. Q. Yes. It's not uncommon that -- that the national

officers and candidates appear at these receptions, correct? A. Q. Yes. Now, let's look at the state convention in

Tucson, the one that you said people were sitting in the cafeteria when you got there. And you also said you were

not credentialed and then said all the people that were from Phoenix and San Luis had the same badge that you did, correct? A. Q. Yes. So they weren't credentialed, either, were they?
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A.

According to the people running the state

convention, no. Q. And did anybody physically keep anyone from going

from the cafeteria to the -A. Q. right? A. Q. Yes. And then you said that the room was too full in No. In fact, you -- you said you went in there,

the place where the business was being conducted when you got there, correct? A. Q. Yes. And then later in the afternoon, everything moved

over to the cafeteria, correct? A. Q. Yes. And -- and also you said that -- quote/unquote,

you said 40 percent were seated in the cafeteria, 60 percent were not seated. You said you counted them. Do

you know the actual number? A. Q. A. I remember the percentage number. No. But the actual number, do you know?

I remember the percentage, not the number.

There's pictures. Q. A. Okay. No.
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You don't know the numbers, though?

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Q. A. Q. A. Q.

You can't tell me -I remember --- six versus twelve -I remember -- I remember the percentage. And you can't tell me, at least from your

knowledge, who these individuals were and what percentage versus not? A. Q. A. I know -Do you know who is in the 40 percent? I remember of the people -- of the people that I

know from Phoenix since I've been back about seven months ago from Florida and came back to Arizona -- out of the people from Phoenix and San Luis that I know, they were the ones, the majority -- all that were standing up. Q. correct? A. According to the credentials committee at the Those are the ones that were not credentialed,

state convention, yes. Q. And you were supporting Domingo Garcia for

national president, correct? A. Q. there? A. Q. I was aware of that. You were?
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I don't see the relevance to that, but yes. Were you aware that he withdrew his candidacy

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A. Q.

Yes, at the state -- at the national convention. At the national convention. And he did that

voluntarily, didn't he? A. Q. A. Q. else. Ask him. Well, you were supporting him. Did you ask him? I don't know.

I don't know if he was -- ask him.

Well, you have opinions on just about everything Don't you have an opinion as to whether or not -MR. FORD: Objection. Calls for

speculation. THE COURT: BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. national. You lived in Chandler. transported to Vegas? A. Q. A. Guerrero. Q. And when you rented the car, you had to sign a When I came here, I -- I rented a car. Who else went with you? Manuel Saldana, Yolanda Medina, and [ inaudible ] So how did you get Let me -- let me -- let's move on to the Sustained.

contract saying that you were responsible for payment, correct? A. Q. I rented a car, yes. And those are the same cars that Cora is saying
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she now needs to be reimbursed for? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. No. Separate car? Separate car. Who paid your expenses to attend the convention? I paid for the car. The legal opinion -- you said you were never You're a named plaintiff. Why

shown the legal opinion.

didn't you ask your attorney for a copy of the legal opinion since we were here for the [ inaudible ] to the national convention? A. I was also -- I was also a dues-paying member of And that was the

League of Latin American Citizens.

opinion was issued to them, and I felt that it was easier, instead of going through the courts, to get it from my LULAC. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. You didn't ask Chris Ford for the copy? No. And he's your lawyer, right? Yes. But it's my LULAC, as well, and --

Just answer the question, sir. Yes. Did you submit anything in writing to the -- to

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Q. A. Q.

Yes or no? No. Now, you said at the state convention, there was

not a credentialing table; is that correct? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. arrive? A. Q. A. Q. Approximately around 10:00. Around 10:00? Yeah. Well, did you know registration closes at 10:00 Yes. What time did you -That I was aware of. What time did you arrive? 9:15 a.m. 9:15 a.m. 9:15 a.m. What time did the other individuals

according to your own exhibit that your lawyer produced? Did you see these exhibits? A. Q. Yes. But may I explain?

Well, I just want to know if you were aware that

there was a cutoff of 10 o'clock. A. Q. A. Q. A. I arrived at 9:15 a.m. Were you aware or not? I arrived at 9:15 a.m. Okay. But there's a cutoff at 10:00, correct?

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Q. A.

Yes or no? Yeah -- well, it's advertised in the piece of

paper that we have. Q. A. So 10 o'clock is the cutoff, correct? In the piece of paper that you have, it says yes.

But there was a communication -Q. You don't know for a fact when these other Some of them may have You don't know

individuals may have arrived?

arrived or maybe arrived after 10 o'clock? for a fact, do you, sir? A. Q. A. Q. No, I don't. You're under oath, sir. No, I don't. You don't know, do you? MR. FORD:

If I could cut in, I'd like to

move to admit Exhibit 1, since it was [ inaudible ]. MR. GUAJARDO: Exhibit 1. THE COURT: stipulation. MR. FORD: BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. Were you aware that -- that in the original Thank you. Exhibit 1 is admitted by Well, no objection to

complaint, in affidavits submitted by your co-plaintiffs, they said they arrived at 10:15? There were affidavits

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submitted to that effect. A. Q. A. Yes.

Were you aware of that?

They got there after closing time, correct? According to the piece of paper that you have,

the flyer, yes. Q. Now, going back to the national convention, you

said that there was a motion to overturn the legal advisor's opinion, correct? A. Q. Yes. And you said that there were not very many people

standing because you could tell that it was not two-thirds standing? A. Q. There was ambiguity -Sir, yes or no? You said that on your direct.

Do you want the Court to read what you said? A. Q. Could you restate the question? You said -- and I'm quoting you. This is your

testimony.

You said that there was a motion made by Rick

Dovalina, who was past national president -- that's what you said. A. Q. A. Q. many. Um-hmm. -- to overturn the legal advisor's opinion. Um-hmm. And then you said, oh, but there wasn't that It wasn't even a third.
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Well, do you know that it required two-thirds to overturn? So if you only had a third,

obviously the motion is not successful by your own testimony? A. Q. A. I'm aware that it requires -Yes or no? -- two-thirds -- I'm aware that it requires

two-thirds to overturn a legal opinion. Q. A. Right. And when I stood up in the podium, I did not see,

it was not -- it was not a very clear, clear to my point of view either way whether there was two-thirds or not. Q. A. Sir -And, therefore, further clarity was required on

our side -- on my side, and I requested a roll-call vote. Q. Okay. All right. So there's a procedure for --

if not stand up, there's a procedure for show of hands, correct? A. Yes. MR. FORD: BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. And this procedure -- according to the exhibit of Objection. Calls for --

the national convention rules, there's other means by which votes can be done, correct? A. According to what was adopted for that -- for
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that national convention, yes. Q. All right. There's -- the national assembly is

the supreme authority of the national -- of LULAC, correct? MR. FORD: opinion. MR. GUAJARDO: That's admitted as Objection. Calls for a legal

Exhibit 15, Your Honor, judicial notice of -THE COURT: If you know under Exhibit 15.

If you don't know, you can say so. MR. GUAJARDO: sufficient. BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. Sir, were you aware that the national assembly is It's admitted as The judicial notice is

the supreme authority of the League? Exhibit 15. A. Q. Do you want to see that?

I'll say yes. And the election judge, which you said was You mentioned Chairman Rocha. He was, in

nonexistent.

fact, the election judge. A.

Were you aware of that?

I was under the impression that he was the chair

of the national convention. Q. A. Q. He was, in fact, the -Had a dual role? -- election judge, yeah. Were you aware of that?

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A. Q.

I was not aware of that. You were not aware? Did he appear to be running

the election? A. Q. A. Yes. Okay. The --

One thing that I might say is that Legal Counsel

Rivera was proselytizing -Q. I haven't asked a question yet, sir. I haven't

asked a question. It appears, then, that you're inside observing all of this, right? A. Q. Yes. And you testified earlier -- you said that nobody You said there was a roadblock.

could get past the guard.

So how could you get in there, then, if there was a roadblock? A. Q. I was credentialed. All right. So everybody that was credentialed At the national convention, you

was authorized to be in?

were credentialed, so there was no -- no roadblock to anyone who was properly credentialed, was there, sir? A. Q. But the one -- but -Answer the question. Yes or no? Everybody was

credentialed, had a delegate badge and ribbon, and they were allowed to go through the door, correct?
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A.

The roadblock was for the folks that wanted to

appeal the credentials with the credentials committee, and we were told by Executive -Q. A. Answer my question, sir. -- Director Wilkes that that was a possibility,

but there was a roadblock -MR. GUAJARDO: THE WITNESS: Nonresponsive. -- and they could not appeal

MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT: BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q.

Nonresponsive, Judge.

Sustained.

I'm asking you a specific question, Dr. Soto.

And I know -- I think you can answer this very simple question. My question is: No one that was properly

credentialed with a delegate badge and a ribbon was denied access to the doors, correct? A. Q. Yes. Everyone was let in that was properly

credentialed, correct? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. Including yourself? Yes. So you were not denied any due process, were you,
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sir? A. Q. A. Q. correct? A. But I was allowed due process in terms of my -One -Yes -You, yourself, personally? I was denied due process. You were allowed to get in there and participate,

multiple things. Q.

Just answer the question whether you were allowed

to participate at the national convention as a delegate. A. Q. I was denied due process. Well, you were allowed to participate at the

national convention, correct? A. Part of the due process is the right to call for

a roll-call vote, and I was denied that. Q. Okay. Well, are you aware that -- that the

minutes of the convention are the official business record of the vote? A. Q. Yes. And your lawyer has access to that? In fact, he

can get them -- there's a website, www.LULAC.org that shows an account of everything that was conducted at the -- in other words, there was no call for any roll-call vote, was there, sir? A. Just because it wasn't written in the minutes
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didn't mean -- doesn't mean it didn't happen.

I am under

the impression that there was a -- a collusion or concerted effort to exclude the folks from Phoenix and San Luis that were part of my group, which we agreed already that I'm part of the 147 in terms of the group and our concerted effort as well. And -- and I believe that those minutes are biased against my group, my group. Q. Well, you say that there was a roll-call vote

called for? A. Q. request? A. Q. A. Q. A. Yes. I went to next -Yes, because I called. And you went up to the mic and made a roll call

Did anybody second your motion? Yes. Who did? I believe it was Raymond Serra (phonetic). There

were some other folks in there. Q. Well, did you know that there's an allegation

that somebody muted the microphone and there was nothing made because they muted the microphone? Now you're saying that there was, in fact, a microphone that was not muted and you made -- you made a request on the microphone.
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A. Q.

I was -So which was it? Was it muted and no motion

could be heard because it was muted, or you actually made a motion? A. I cannot answer in a yes or no. I need to

explain it. Q. Well, it can't be both. Either the microphone

was muted and nobody was able to make a motion or -A. Q. It's not a binary answer. I need to explain it.

But in your case, you're saying the microphone

was not muted and you were able to make a motion, correct? A. Q. It's more complicated than that. Just answer that. You were able to make a

motion, correct? A. I cannot answer either way. I need time. It's

not a single -Q. A. Q. Did you or did you not have access --- answer. May I try to explain?

-- to the microphone -- did you make a motion on

the microphone? A. Q. A. Q. The microphone was muted. How do you know that it was muted? Tried to speak into it. How can it be muted? There's no mute button.

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A. Q. A. Q. A.

Disconnected. -- not any mute button? And they took it away. There is no -- who took it away? It would -- I believe Mr. Rocha ordered someone

to take the mic away when Ms. Cora Esquivel wanted to speak. And after that, there was -- after that, nobody But

could make any formal request through the microphone. I did -- I approached Rocha -Q. A. Q. Sir --- and asked a question. Let me ask a question.

How do you reconcile that

you're saying that -- that you were deprived of making the motion for roll-call vote because somebody yanked the microphone. Yet, according to Cora -- she was there and

she was actively involved -- she said that Margaret Moran pushed a mute button so the microphones were not allowed to work and nobody was able to hear any motion. You're saying that, instead of the mute button or whatever, there was this person that grabs the microphone, correct? A. Q. A. They did grab the microphone. And who grabbed the microphone? I cannot identify by name the person that grabbed

the microphone.
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Q.

Okay.

Were you aware that you were not a member

in good standing at the state convention because you have to become credentialed to be able to vote, and you didn't go to the credentials table? A. Q. A. Q. No. You were not aware of that? There was no credentials table. But you are aware that there's a credentials You

table, and there's always been at every convention? said you've been to conventions before -A. There was no credentials table at the state

convention. Q. But there's always a credentials table at all

conventions you've previously attended, correct? A. You must be having an existential moment. There

was no -- no -- no credentials. Q. We're talking about due process here. That's

what you're saying is important. A. There was no -- there was just no table to speak

There was only a registration table -Q. And that didn't concern you that there was no

credentials table, yet at all other conventions that you said you've been participating for years -A. That is why I asked for clarity at that table, You're okay to vote."

and they said, "You're okay.

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That's what they told me in no uncertain terms. Q. A. Q. ribbon? A. And you know better than to accept -At that point, I trusted --- something that doesn't say delegate and have a You know better than that, don't you, sir? At that point I trusted the folks in Tucson to Apparently

tell me the truth at the registration table. my trust was misplaced. Q. Okay.

Now, let's get to the state convention.

You said that the vote of the candidates was by acclimation, correct? A. Q. Yes. And there has to be a motion to be made -- to be

made, under Robert's Rules of Order, that acclimation will be used, correct? A. Q. Absolutely. Then, after the motion carries for acclimation, And that's what you

all in favor, you raise your hand?

said; they did a show of hands, correct? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. And the motion carried, correct? Yes. I did not -Yes or no? Obviously the motion

Yes or no?

carried because they got elected, correct? A. I cannot answer that in a binary response.
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Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. answer. Q.

It's a simple yes or no. It's more complicated. I mean, if I'm --

By a show of hands, they were elected because -There was no order --- there was enough hands sufficient to carry --- to speak of --- the motion? -- that could allow me to have clarity in that

Well, it's not about clarity.

It's about whether

or not there was a show of hands, and you said there was. A. Q. Yes. Okay. So that's -- that doesn't get that It's very simple.

complicated. A. Q.

There was -You're still -- you're still saying that you were

deprived of due process, yet there was a proper vote and a motion carried, correct? A. I didn't see a vote for -- to allow for

acclimation nor -Q. A. Q. Okay. -- a second -Let's stop right there. Let's stop right there.

You could have made a motion to nominate someone from the floor, correct?
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A. delegate. Q. A. Q.

No.

Because I was not allowed to be seated as a

Only the delegates -Well, anybody else could have done it? -- are allowed to make motions. Anybody else -- all you have to do is say, "I'm

Robert Soto, and we want to run this person or" -- you could do that for every single office? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Let me ask you this. You can -- yes or no? You can nominate --

If you're not delegated --- from the floor or not? If you're not delegated -Sir, I'm not asking whether you, personally. Are nominations from the floor possible? I'm

just saying: Yes or no?

MR. FORD: witness.

Objection.

Badgering the

MR. GUAJARDO:

I don't think I'm badgering

the witness, Your Honor, but I apologize if that's what it seems. I just can't get a simple answer. He doesn't

answer my questions. THE COURT: answer the questions. witness time to answer. MR. GUAJARDO: Okay. The witness is directed to

Counsel is directed to allow the

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BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. It is possible, under the due process concept of

LULAC, to make nominations from the floor, correct? A. Yes. MR. FORD: Objection. Calls for --

MR. GUAJARDO: MR. FORD: THE COURT:

He's already answered it.

[ Inaudible ]. Overruled. We'd pass the witness, Your

MR. GUAJARDO: Honor. THE COURT: MR. FORD:

Redirect. Thank you, Your Honor.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. FORD: Q. I'm just going to follow up with some questions

to -- I'm not quite clear on the -- on the manner of the -- testimony that was just elicited, so we're going to try to clarify some of those things. For example, in the -- these questions kind of went back and forth, but we're back to Tucson now. arrived -- that's fine. you'll need that. You went to a table. There was -- there But just for this question, You

was -- was there a credentialing table?
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A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q.

No. Was there a registration table? Yes. Were you registered at the registration table? Yes. Were you credentialed at the registration table? I was allowed to believe that I was. What -- what -- when you say that, what was given

to you or -- was anything given to you or was a piece of paper signed or anything like that? A. I was given a name badge, and I was told to write And I asked him

my LULAC council number there.

explicitly, "Will this enable me to vote in the state election?" And they explicitly said, "Yes." There were more than two people at the table. And in some ways, I was led to believe that it

might have been both the credential -- actually, no, it was explicitly said it was the registration table. that point -Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Just to summarize, the registration table -Yeah. You were registered? Yeah. You paid money? Yeah.
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At

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Q. A. Q.

You were given a badge? Yes. And just to be real specific, speaking to Did you ask whether this meant -- being

[ inaudible ] too.

given the badge meant that you were credentialed and qualified to vote? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. And was what the answer? Explicitly yes. You're good to go, to vote.

Prior to the -- this convention, did you -- I'm And

going to actually direct your attention to Exhibit 4. Exhibit 4 is a -- is three pages long, I think.

And those

three pages are -- one is a letter saying the person is a member in good standing. payment. The second is a receipt of

And the third is a certificate of charter. I'm going to ask you, this is for another

person, one of the other plaintiffs.

But did you receive

a letter that resembles this letter in the first page of Exhibit 4? A. Q. Do you have that in front of you?

Yes. Did you receive a letter from LULAC saying you

were in good standing? A. Q. Yes. Okay. Did you receive -- when you -- when you -How did you seek to become a member?

let me ask you this:

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Did you apply? A. Q. A. national. Q. national. Yeah.

How did that work? You apply.

How do you apply? You fill out the paperwork, and you send it up to

So you filled out the paperwork and sent it to Did you apply to become a member -- did you

apply to become a member? A. Q. Yes. Did you apply to become a secretary of the

council number -A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. 1152. -- 1152? Yes. So is that a separate application? No. You put it on when you --

You put it all on the same page? Yes. So you applied to become a member of LULAC and,

in the same effort, applied to become the secretary of Council No. 1152 -A. Q. A. Q. Yeah. -- is that correct? Yeah. Okay. And did you -- did you pay money to form
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the council? A. Q. Yes. Did you receive back -- look at the second page Did you receive back a receipt of payment

of Exhibit 4.

that closely resembles that which -A. Q. A. Q. Yes. Okay. Yes. And then did you look -- turning to the following

page, did you see -- excuse me -- did you receive a certificate of charter from LULAC? A. Q. Yes. Okay. To the extent you have personal knowledge,

are you aware whether the other councils in Phoenix received these same sorts of documents? MR. GUAJARDO: speculation. THE WITNESS: BY MR. FORD: Q. Did this person -THE COURT: to say how he knows. BY MR. FORD: Q. Okay. Was there a means -- describe the means by Sustained. You're going to have Yes. Objection. Calls for

which you became aware, if you did, that other councils in
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Phoenix have been given documentation similar to that which is in Exhibit 4. A. After it appeared that we -- that there was

collusion or conspiracy to exclude us from our constitutional rights to vote at the state convention, we all got together and they told me that they had the documents. MR. GUAJARDO: Honor. BY MR. FORD: Q. Did you see -THE COURT: MR. FORD: THE COURT: MR. FORD: BY MR. FORD: Q. A. Please continue, Mr. Soto. So they -- there was confusion, frustration from Overruled. Excuse me. Sorry. Objection. Hearsay, Your

I overruled the objection. You overruled. Okay.

the people that were denied the constitutional right to vote at the state convention. And we started -- everybody "How is it that I

started bringing out their paperwork.

have this certificate and I'm not allowed to vote?" "How come I paid this amount and I'm not allowed to vote?" Everybody started to bring it out. And that

is when we realized that there was something wrong with
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this. Q. And so for -- for the purposes of this line of

questioning, did you personally observe -- did you take any and kind of look at them? A. Q. A. Yes. Okay. And that happened on the 22nd, when the

uncredentialed people wanted to contest their credentials with the credentials committee inside the assembly and they were road blocked. Q. A. Q. At the roadblock -They were not allowed in. So at the roadblock, they were saying, "We have

these documents" -A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Yes. -- "We are -- LULAC itself" -Yes. -- "has said we are members in good standing"? Yes. Is that the idea? Yes. And we put it all together in a box and

they asked me, "Please advocate for me." Q. A. 22nd -480.227.4077 www.TAtrans.com TRUAUDIO TRANSCRIBERS, LLC

Because you were -And because I had the delegate badge on the

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Q. A. Q. A. Q. A.

You were able to get past the roadblock and -Yes. -- into the credentials committee? Yes. Okay. -- to the credentials committee to see if we And then I took them all --

could get their credentials and delegate -- ribbons -Q. A. Okay. -- to go back into the event so they could come

Q.

Okay.

For the purpose of this line of

questioning, therefore, you were privy to these documents -A. Q. Yes. -- that show -- that are similar to if not

exactly like those -A. Q. Yes. -- in Exhibit 4 that show the different -- these

various LULAC councils from Phoenix had been given a certificate of charter, receipt of payment, correct? A. Q. Absolutely correct. Okay. If you recall, when -- in the time frame

of the voting assembly, this is sort of toward the end of things, right? A. The national or what?
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Q.

Yeah, the national voting assembly.

We're going

back and forth. notes are.

Forgive me, because that's kind of how my

When in time did Mr. Garcia withdraw his nomination for president of LULAC? A. After the delegations from Tucson -- from Phoenix

and San Luis were not allowed to go in. Q. A. After -And after the convention had started, just before

the -- the -- the elections for national president. Q. Okay. Thank you. You were -- you were

apparently not able to kind of fully answer the roadblock issue. A. So, in your opinion, why was there a roadblock? Because there was a concerted effort to deny -MR. GUAJARDO: Speculation. THE COURT: BY MR. FORD: Q. Okay. All right. Did you observe a table Sustained. Objection, Your Honor.

that -- just to clarify, did you observe a table that blocked LULAC members from entering the assembly? A. Q. Yes. And in your observation and to the extent you

have personal knowledge, were those people standing on the other side of the roadblock members?
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A. Q.

Yes. And to the extent you have personal knowledge, is

there a certain reason they were left on the outside of the roadblock? A. vote -Q. A. So --- because of the -- of the perceived preference There was a concerted effort to deny them their

for a national candidate. Q. Okay. In your opinion, if the 147 people who

were blocked had been -- had been seated, do you think that would have affected the outcome of the vote? A. Q. Yes. Could you please briefly explain or further

explain how you were denied due process. A. Yes. The two main reasons -- how I was

personally denied due process? Q. A. Yes, you, personally. First of all, I was not allowed to request -- to

formally request, even though I spoke to the Chair Rocha to formally request a roll-call vote when there was a perceived lack of clarity in the two-thirds vote that would withdraw the legal opinion. That was one incident.

The other one, access to the credential committee to advocate for the 147 folks.
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I was not

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allowed to plead the case for the delegate status. was another -Q. You're not -- I haven't -- I didn't quite

That

formulate.

But -- so you were not able -- you went in

with those documents -A. Q. A. Q. Yes. -- as you discussed a few moments ago? Yes. And you presented them to the -- to this

credentialing table? A. I tried, but no one could -- no one wanted to I had the documents, carrying -What -- when you approach

listen to me. Q.

Let me ask you this:

the table, what was the response of the people -A. Ignore -- they just ignored me. They pretended I

wasn't there. Q. Did you address them, say, "Please" -- what did

you say to them? A. At that point, I did the following: When it

was -- I went outside and made up about 500 copies of Judge Herrod's suggestion that they should allow the Arizona folks to vote. And I started distributing to

everyone because no one wanted to listen to me. I appeared as though I was perhaps not very -- I appeared as though I was desperate because I was
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carrying a big box with everybody's -- all of this that you have right here -- certificate, payment, status, everything. I was given a box with all of that for the --

for the 38 councils that asked me to advocate for them. And I was trying to talk to everyone that was -- that I could and -Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. And this is at the -- we're talking -The 22nd at the national convention. We're talking about the credentialing table -Exactly. -- inside the assembly room? Exactly. And no one could listen to me. I tried

to talk to the folks who were there presiding the election. No one wanted to listen to me. I started to Started

talk to the other folks, the delegates in there. giving away copies of Judge Herrod's -Q. A. Q. A. Order. -- suggestion. It's an order. An order.

And at that point, it was just a

lack -- it was a lack of -Q. A. Q. So, just to sum --- due process. -- to keep things concise, the -- the credential

table did not -- did the credential table review these
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documents that you brought in? A. Q. No. Okay. All right. Thank you. You were in --

during the assembly, which you were -- you were inside, when you were inside, did you observe a motion made to block the recording of the proceedings? A. Q. Yes. And do you recall whether that motion was

successful or not? A. Q. It was -- I did not recall. Okay. There was a little confusion, I think,

that was created by defendants, frankly, as to the process that resulted in the muting of the microphone and that sort of thing. that. The vote -- there was the vote to -- I believe to override -- a vote was proposed -- a motion was made to override the legal opinions -- so-called legal opinion from Mr. Escobar that essentially said the Phoenix people, 147, were not qualified to be credentialed to vote? A. Q. Yes. There was a vote, and -- and when that -- did you So I wanted to kind of get some clarity on

propose that motion? A. No. Dovalina, I believe -- Rick Dovalina.
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Q. A. Q. A. Q.

Did you initially address the motion by -Yes. -- using a microphone? Yes. Were there people after you who also wished to

address the -A. Q. A. Q. Yes. -- motion? Yes. And were all of them allowed to speak into the

microphone? A. No. As soon as Cora Esquivel wanted to approach By "muted it," I mean they

the microphone, they muted it. took it away. Q.

They took it away. Let me ask you a couple questions.

Hold on.

Did -- did Ms. Esquivel approach a microphone, begin to speak, and then no sound came out of the speakers? A. That was afterwards, yes. So here's what happened: After I addressed It sounds

and -- it sounds confusing because it was.

confusing because they wanted to expedite it, it seemed. So after I gave a brief speech, they -- they came and took the microphone away. And -- and as I recall, Cora

Esquivel wanted to speak afterwards, but now the microphone was being -- was not allowed to be by itself as
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it usually is in these conventions and delegates can come and speak and make motions. But it was being now held in

the hands of someone that -- that either allowed or did not allow access to make motions. So, having said that, that is -- my privilege as a delegate to make motions was denied because now the microphone to make the motions was being -- was being taken hostage by the -Q. A. Q. So someone was controlling the microphone -Yes. -- so it was not freely available to all the

members who might -- delegates who might wish to make a motion or comment on the motion? A. Not only wish but have the right to have access

to make motions. Q. And -- and at some point, was it the

microphone -- electricity essentially to the microphone was turned off such that the sound did not carry any further when someone spoke into it? A. Q. A. I'm -- my memory is vague when it comes to that. Okay. Fair enough.

But I do know that they had someone controlling

the microphone, yes. Q. Okay. So, to put it more broadly, LULAC

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A. Q.

Yes. -- it was not possible to freely -- to access to

it for anyone -A. Q. Yes. -- for anyone who wanted to make a motion was

your observation? A. Yes. Not anyone. It seemed that the folks that

had a -- that were supporting the Arizona -- Phoenix and San Luis delegations, there was a -- there was a perceived bias in terms of access to make motions. Q. Let me ask this: Were there efforts taken to see

that people from Phoenix or supportive of Phoenix and San Luis were not able to make motions or comment on them? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. I'm going to go back to the state -Okay. -- real quick, the state convention in Tucson.

Again, there seemed to be some, if I may, confusion in that -- in regard to that. We're going to go back to that

sort of vote by acclimation that we were discussing earlier. And if I recall your testimony correctly, you said there was sort of confusion. A. Q. Um-hmm. Can you explain? Because defendants elicited

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some testimony that said there was a show of hands, and it seemed like that wasn't the end of the story. And I just

wanted you to clarify briefly and concisely how that -there's this acclimation process that went on. the hands come in, if at all? Where did

And was it clear that the

hands had anything to do with the results? A. It was not clear. After they denied the majority

of the people present there the right to be seated as delegates, they -- the -- the -- both the seated delegates and the unseated duly members of LULAC were confused. It appeared that the leadership was the only one that understood what was going on. And that confusion

on all parts of the delegates and the folks who were not allowed to be seated, it just permeated through the entire process, which lasted no more than three minutes, one to three minutes, something like that. Q. Well, your testimony was that it took But was -- so was there some --

approximately a minute.

were hands raised at some point in this process? A. They were. They were semi raised. Again, you

know, what it seemed is that the Mari Alvarado was holding the microphone and she said -- and she said a list of names and said, "And all of them are going to go by acclimation." Q. Okay. And they started raising hands and -So -- so -- just so I can -480.227.4077 www.TAtrans.com TRUAUDIO TRANSCRIBERS, LLC

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A. Q.

Um-hmm. -- ask the question. After Ms. Alvarado

announced this acclimation of certain candidates I guess succeeding in winning their votes, then the hands went up? So the hands went -A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yes. -- after she sort of proclaimed this -Yes. -- sort of victory? Yes, after she proclaimed by acclimation. So, in your opinion, did the raising -It seemed -In your opinion, did the raising of the hands

have anything to do with whether that vote took place? A. Q. A. Q. In my opinion, they were not. It had an effect on the outcome of the vote? No. No.

Just to clarify, what was the percentage of the

delegates who were not seated and were standing -- who were not seated to vote? A. There were about 60 percent of the delegates

maybe were not seated -- well, were just standing up of the people that were there. Q. seated?
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So -- and who did the hand-raising, the people

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A. Q. A.

Seated. Okay. But they --

And some of them -- there was not a clear

majority of them, either. Q. A. Just some hands went up? Yeah. It was confusion. People were sitting

down, and they were just -- people are standing up and other folks are there. It was just very, very -- it was And --

fast track, expedited, confusing. Q. A. Q.

Sounds like it wasn't clear. No clarity at all. No clarity at all.

Just to emphasize the point, the hands went up

sort of after the proclamation of victory? A. Yes. MR. FORD: Okay. I'll pass the witness.

RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. Mr. Soto, it seems that -- that what Mari

Alvarado did was make a motion that they be elected by acclimation. That would then call for a show of hands to

see if the motion carried, correct? A. Q. It would call. And is there -- is there 60 percent people

supposedly that were not seated and 40 percent that were
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seated.

It could be the 60 percent were the ones that

were causing the confusion? MR. FORD: I'm going to object. Correct?

MR. GUAJARDO: MR. FORD: he uses the word "could." THE COURT:

It calls for speculation because

Sustained as argumentative. What?

MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT: BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q.

Sustained as argumentative.

The bottom line is you said there was confusion.

But you're not -- you don't know whether or not the confusion was caused by the -- by Mari Alvarado or could have been caused by the people who were supposedly dissatisfied? A. I do know. It was caused by Mari Alvarado. The

moderator should know and explain clearly, clearly the -the procedures. Q. A. Okay. It's the job of the moderator, as I understand, And that was not done.

to make sure that everybody understands what they voted and what the procedures are. Q. But if somebody is unhappy that they're not

seated, and they're making a lot of noise and being disruptive, that could also cause confusion, couldn't it?
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Yes or no? A. Q. It could. It could, yes.

You did get to talk to the -- apparently, you

know, you said you did get through the roadblock, whatever that means. A. Q. At the national. At the national. And you went in and you I

mentioned that you talked to somebody in particular. forget who that was. A. Q. A. Mr. Wilkes or somebody?

On the 21st, the executive director, Wilkes. Mr. Wilkes? The executive director, Wilkes, on the 21st, I

spoke to him. Q. A. Spoke to him? After they closed down two hours before the

advertised deadlines of the closing of the credential table on the 21st. Q. Okay. So you were explained that -- that they

had not been credentialed because these people had not been sponsored by a member in good standing and that there was a legal opinion, correct? A. Q. A. Q. That was explained by Mr. Wilkes. It was explained. Yes. So you knew the reason, but that didn't seem to
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satisfy you because then this was carried ultimately to the national assembly. So you appealed the decision to

the national assembly, correct? A. Q. A. If I may, the -It went up to the national assembly? But my original grievance with Mr. Wilkes was

that they had closed down the credential committee two hours before -- even before they had a chance to be denied a credential assessment. They were not -- and Mr. Wilkes explained to me that there was -- he said there's going to be another chance for you to do this on the following day if you were denied credentialed and you want to appeal them or -- and they tried to have access to that, but the roadblock prevented it from that. Q. A. know. Q. A. Q. So the bottom line -They closed two hours before the deadline. So the bottom line is: It was appealed to the Yes or no? Okay. They didn't even have a chance to be denied, you

national assembly, correct, ultimately? A. Q. A. No. It was not appealed -Yes.
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Q.

-- to the national assembly? Then Rick Dovalina's motion --

A. Q. A. Q.

The legal opinion --- that you testified, that was an appeal -The legal opinion was --- to overturn -- to overturn to the legal

advisor's opinion so they could be seated, correct? A. Q. Yes. Okay. That was appealed. So that was appealed. And do you believe

in the LULAC constitution? A. Q. I do. All right. Do you believe that if the LULAC

constitution provides that someone has to be in good standing in order to sponsor a member and Miguel Zazueta was not a member in good standing, you agree to abide by the constitution when you apply for membership, don't you? A. Q. I did agree. And Miguel Zazueta was not a member in good

standing, and that was the basis of the legal advisor's opinion. A. So there was no conspiracy, was there, sir? Yes, there -- yes. I -- from what I understand

and from what I've seen, there was a concerted effort to exclude the delegations that were perceived to have a different -- a different preference of a national candidate for the national LULAC presidency.
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Q.

You just told me that you agreed and would follow And the constitution, Exhibit 15 in

the constitution.

evidence, says that in order to effect membership, one of the ways is you apply directly and/or you have -- this is what happened in the cases of the Phoenix and San Luis councils: They applied through a member apparently in

good standing, Miguel Zazueta, who, it turned out, was not a member in good standing. A. Then why -- then why was I allowed -- not allowed

to vote in the state convention even though I was -- I got there before the deadline that you allege that they had, and I was a member in good standing and was not allowed to vote there. Q. A. Okay. They seemed to be the ones that are not following

the constitution. Q. You just testified that you did not go to the

credentials table, so -A. Q. A. Q. There was no credentials table to go for. That's what you're saying. Yes. But everybody else -- all the other people that You were the

were seated as delegates were credentialed.

only one that supposedly you say that there was no credentials. Everybody else went through credentials.
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A. Q. A.

I don't know how they got credentialed. You were the only one that didn't. You need to ask them. I don't know how they got

credentialed. Q. But you know -- you now know that Miguel Zazueta

was not a member in good standing at the time he sponsored these councils because he had not paid dues. And that's

consistent with the constitution, that you must pay dues to be a member in good standing. You were aware of that, correct, that you have to pay dues to be a member in good standing? aware of that, correct? A. I'm aware that you have to pay dues in order to You're

be a member in good standing. Q. And since Miguel Zazueta did not pay dues, by

definition, he was not a member in good standing? MR. FORD: conclusion. THE COURT: BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. Well, do you have an opinion now as to whether or Sustained. Objection. Calls for a legal

not -- Miguel Zazueta, knowing that he didn't pay dues, obviously he was not a member in good standing. said that was a requirement, correct? A. As I understand the LULAC, yes.
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You just

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Q.

Now, you arrived supposedly at the state But were you aware that the

convention on time.

co-plaintiffs -- at least two of them said they arrived at 10:15, so they did not arrive on time to be credentialed. So why is that -- why should that be a surprise if they were late? MR. FORD: speculation. BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. Were you surprised that they were late? THE COURT: THE WITNESS: Overruled. It's up to them that they Why was I not allowed Objection. Calls for

arrived at the time that they did.

to vote in the state convention which I arrived early? Q. Well, again, you're saying you didn't go through

the credentials. A. There was no credentials table. Please read

Judge Herrod's opinion on the ambiguity of what happened in Arizona convention. Q. I will take that as a request for my being And I think I am, sir, I'm I've been involved in

knowledgeable of the case.

very knowledgeable of the case.

LULAC for over 40 years myself as a Junior LULAC, LULAC Council No. 49, I was president of that council. very familiar with the -480.227.4077 www.TAtrans.com TRUAUDIO TRANSCRIBERS, LLC

And I'm

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MR. FORD:

Objection.

Argumentative.

MR. GUAJARDO: familiar with it.

I'm just explaining why I'm And

He's saying why I am not familiar.

I am familiar with the judge's order. THE COURT: Sustained. Okay. That was argument.

MR. GUAJARDO: BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q.

Mr. Soto, it seems to me that either the --

either the microphone was muted -- you know, that's still an inconsistency. You're saying that it was grabbed.

Let's assume that it was grabbed from you. A. Q. It could be both. Okay. It could be both. You said -They did grab it from me. But it was grabbed from

you supposedly. A. Q.

Not supposedly.

You were making a speech -- you said you were Do you know there's a time limit for

making a speech.

people to be able to have access to the microphone? That's also established by the elections judge, correct? A. Q. I gave the speech -You can't dominate the microphone forever. You

have to give it up, right? A. I gave the -- I cannot answer that. It's more

complicated. Q.

I cannot give you a binary answer.

Were you aware that you are not able to hold onto
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the microphone indefinitely; that you have a limited time to speak? A. Q. Yes. Okay. In fact, if you have a thousand delegates,

such as there were at the national convention, everybody has a chance to speak, but nobody can speak forever if everyone is going to be given a chance, correct? A. Q. Yes. It would not be unusual that there be a time

limit for your speech, correct? A. Q. I suppose -- no, it would not be unusual. Then each side gets only a certain amount of

minutes to speak on an issue, correct, if there's two points? A. Q. A. Q. correct? A. But there was not -- when we -- when I tried to Sides? Number of people. By "sides," you mean who? You have for -- three for, three against,

make the motion for a roll-call vote after the ambiguity of the -Q. Just answer the question. Was there a number of

people that are limited in terms of those that are for and those who are against?
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A. Q.

When there's a formal motion, yes. And you just said in your earlier testimony that

Rick Dovalina made a formal motion, correct? A. Which was taken and voted on the floor. And

there was ambiguity.

And I continued to make -- to

attempt to make a formal motion for a roll-call vote, and I was denied my constitutional rights as a delegate to make that formal motion. Q. easier. Yes or no? MR. FORD: Asked and answered. THE COURT: BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. When was the last time you looked at the LULAC Sustained. Rick Dovalina made a motion? Asked and answered -- objection. If we can just get through this, it will be

constitution? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Last year. Last year? When?

I don't recall. Have you read the constitution? Yes, I have. When was the last time you read it? I believe it was in June. In June?
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A. Q.

Last year. Are you aware that this is also available on the

website and anybody can download it at any time? A. Q. Yes. Even Cora, or anybody, right, can download it? MR. FORD: THE COURT: BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. Okay. The reason -- at the state convention, you Objection. Sustained.

said that the room on the left, as you referred to it, became too full; and because there was not enough room, it was moved to the cafeteria. move to the cafeteria? A. Not that I'm aware of. MR. FORD: speculation. THE COURT: BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. Did you attend any -- any meetings or anything Overruled. Objection. Calls for Was there any conspiracy to

prior to this state convention with anyone? A. Meetings? Coffee meetings with my friends, or

what are you talking about? Q. I'm just wondering if you had gone to the

reception the day before the convention that some people refer to as a meeting.
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A. Q. A.

In Las Vegas?

In Tucson?

In the Tucson convention. The Tucson convention? No. I was with my family

in Tucson. Q. A. You didn't go to the reception? I was with my family in Tucson. And then at

9:15 a.m. on the 8th of June, 2013, I attended the convention. And I had all my documentations, and I was

led to believe that I was a delegate explicitly by the registration table. Q. So the answer is, no, you did not go to the

meeting or the reception before the -- the day of the actual registration, correct? A. Q. Where? In a casino or where?

I'm talking about at the Tucson, the Pima

College, that there was a reception prior -A. Q. I did not attend that. You didn't attend that. Okay.

And is Council 1152 one of the councils you're saying was deprived? A. Q. A. Q. A. No -- well, when? Either one. Yes. And so were they deprived? In Arizona or Las Vegas?
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Tucson?

Arizona or Las Vegas?

You said you were a member of 1152.

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Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q.

Either one. Yes, it was deprived. Where were they deprived? In the Arizona state convention. But they were allowed to vote in the national? Yes. And they went -- they obviously then went to the

credentials table at the national convention? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. You went with them to their credentials? Yes. No one was denied access through the roadblock,

as you said -A. Q. Of 1152? We're talking about the ones that were They all got through,

credentialed from your council. right? A. Q. Yes.

So do you agree that -- that then if it comes

down to the issue of whether the constitution was followed, what provision of the constitution are you referring to that you said you are relying on? MR. FORD: opinion. MR. GUAJARDO: I'm just wondering -Objection. Calls for a legal

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THE COURT: THE WITNESS: BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q.

Overrule it as a lay opinion. Restate.

Which provision of the constitution are you

saying you were deprived a right under? A. Q. A. Where? Tucson, Arizona? Las Vegas?

In either case. In Arizona state convention, I was deprived of --

it says in LULAC in the constitution that any -- any -any dues-paying member in good standing has the right to vote in the state and national convention and has the right to postulate him or herself into those positions. And I was denied the right to vote in the state convention. And under the -- the subsequent -- under the subsequent rights that I have as -- had as a delegate member in the national convention, I was not allowed to make motions from the floor. I was not allowed to have

access to represent the -- the people that were denied through the roadblock access to the credentials table because -- and -- and as part of that -- in the spirit of that, I've got to say something. The lack of access to

the credentials table on the 22nd, it really was an insult to the spirit of LULAC. It was an insult.

They were even asking for ID to go inside
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the assembly room.

That is something that LULAC fights

against in terms of border ID. Q. I'm sure that you can just tell me, you know, Just tell me what

without going on a major speech here.

exactly are you explaining about at the national convention in your case? A. Q. My right that I had to make -Dr. Soto -- Dr. Soto, what was your complaint of You

depriving of due process at the national convention? told me about the state. national now. A. Q. A. After the -Your personal due process. I want to hear about the

After the right -- after the vote, the ambiguous

vote for the overruling of the legal opinion of Counsel Escobar, I wanted to make a formal motion to have a roll-call vote to seek clarity on the -- on that from the assembly, and I was denied that right. Q. A. Is that it? And I was denied the right to advocate for the I

people that were violated their constitutional rights. am part of that group. Q. A. Q. I'm not -I am part of that group. -- asking about the other people.
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I said

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Mr. Soto's personal due process. A. Q. A. Q. I -What affected your civil rights? They -- I was part of the group that was -But I'm asking of you, personally, Dr. Soto. I

think that's very clear. A. Part of the -- part of what I consider to be

LULAC, it's the spirit of LULAC, and that was -Q. here. I understand. But you're talking to the choir

I'm a LULACer for 40 years, way before you were

even born. But tell me your personal due process right that was deprived at the national convention, just Dr. Soto's claims. A. Q. A. It's the -Not the other people, just your claim only. I already stated one, which is that I was denied

access to make motions during the assembly of the 22nd. And I was denied the -- the -- I was denied the right to have -- to -- I was denied the right to participate in the national assembly. Again, you know, the constitution states that I have the right, as a member in good standing, to participate. Q. And I was denied that right.

According to your own opinion, correct?
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A. Q.

No, no.

It was explicit.

Well, you're saying you were not allowed to make

a roll-call vote, and you were not allowed to make a motion. A. And to advocate for that -- for the folks that

were denied. Q. Well, that includes making motions and

advocating. A. Q. A. Q. Yes. Yes.

I assume that that is -Yes. So we're talking about the roll-call vote and you

were not allowed to participate by making motions at the national convention? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. Is that it? At this time -Yes or no? I'm talking about your personal

situation. A. I was also denied the right to have access to the

people that were in charge of the credentials committee on the 21st. I was asking for them who is -- so on the 21st,

when they were about to close down prematurely -Q. Sir, you just told me you were credentialed, and I said I specifically

I'm not asking about other people.

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want to know of Dr. Soto's. You were credentialed? A. Q. I was credentialed. So we're talking about Dr. Soto is being

credentialed, so you're not denied your right to be credentialed? A. Yes, I was not denied my right to be

credentialed. Q. All right. Are we finished with your own

personal, then? A. Q. A. For the time being -Yes or no? For the time being, yes. MR. GUAJARDO: Honor. THE COURT: Let's take a break. We'd pass the witness, Your

(Proceedings were at recess from 3:09 p.m. to 3:24 p.m.) THE COURT: Mr. Soto, you're back on the

stand, and you're still under oath. Mr. Ford, follow redirect? And normally I

don't do recross and redirect, but since I cut you off the first time, I gave you guys some latitude. MR. FORD: make it brief.
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I'll make it -- I'll make it I'll

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. FORD: Q. Okay. Your Honor.

THE COURT: Whatever you need. MR. FORD: All right. THE COURT:

It's all right.

Go ahead.

Thank you.

I appreciate that,

Are we back on the record? Yes, we are. Just for the

record, we're back on the record in CV 2013-008731.

FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION

Dr. Soto, I think Exhibit 15 has been And I'll ask you to turn to the page

placed before you.

29 of the document, which is -- I believe is in there. A. Q. I'm here, Section 5. Yeah. Section 5, D, provision -- subdivision D

of Section 5, would you please read that subdivision? A. Yes. It says, "Voting in national elections

shall be by roll call, a show of hands, or secret ballot. Its Rules Committee may recommend. may approve." Q. In the national assembly, was the vote -- were The National Assembly

the votes taken by roll call -- were any votes taken by roll call? A. Q. A. No. Were any votes taken by a show of hands? No.
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Q. A. Q.

Were any votes taken by secret ballot? No. Again, there seems to be a little confusion on

the microphone issue, so we're just going to go through it one more time. If you can kind of tell us -- it sounds

like there's a motion to override made by Mr. Dovalina to override the so-called legal opinion from Mr. Escobar. And that motion was made and -- and were you allowed to address the motion by way of using the microphone? A. Q. A. Q. Before the motion was voted on? Yes. Yes. Okay. And then after -- after you made your

presentation and -- were others -- did others make presentations, as well? A. Q. A. Q. I don't recall. Okay. Yes. And subsequent to that -- and as a reminder, how Subsequent to that, was a vote taken? Did others speak to the motion?

was the vote taken? A. Q. A. Q. By stand-up vote. The so-called stand-up voting process? Yeah. Okay. And the vote was taken. After the vote

was taken, what -- was there a further procedural act
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taken? A. Given that there was ambiguity and I had a chance

to observe it from the -- from the stage, I proceeded to -- to -- I, as well as Raymond Serra and some other folks, we proceeded to make an attempt -- to attempt to make motions to seek clarity from the assembly and call for a roll-call vote. Q. We were denied that. Was anyone -- did anyone

Let me ask this:

attempt to do it by a procedure called "point of order"? A. Q. A. Q. A. Yes. And who was that? Both Raymond Serra and I. Okay. Did Ms. Esquivel also --

Ms. Esquivel was -- there was -- so the way it May

works at the assembly -- if I may draw it, actually. I? THE COURT: THE WITNESS: Yes, you may. So here's the stage. And

here's the moderator, Rocha, the chairman. microphone here.

And there's a

And the assembly is -- there's chairs The

right here, and all the delegates are seated here.

people usually line up right here that have access to the microphone. BY MR. FORD: Q. Okay.
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A.

I did a speech.

Then Dovalina, the past

president, was sitting here and he made the motion to -after I had given my speech, he made the motion to override the legal opinion. And after that -- and then I proceeded to come to the stage, made an observation there was not a clear two-thirds nor lack thereof. And I proceeded to be

part of -- to come down and make a motion, did not have access to the microphone. Raymond Serra was here, as well, another delegate trying to make a motion. Corps Esquivel was as

well in the line here trying to have access to her duly -to her rights as LULAC delegate to have access to the microphone. She did not have access to the microphone to

address the assembly -Q. In what way -- when it comes to Ms. Esquivel, if

you have personal knowledge of this, in what way was access cut off to her -- to the microphone? A. She did not have -- she came up to the

microphone, as I recall, and tried to use it, and it was muted. Q. A. Q. A. Not only that, but it was taken away after that. So the microphone was both muted or -Yes, as I recall. -- electronically cut off -When she tried to use it, yes.
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Q.

-- so that when someone spoke into it, the sound

didn't come out the speakers -A. Q. It did not come out. -- number one. And then number two -A. Q. A. Q. A. And they had taken away --- physically taken from -Yes. -- its stand there or place? Yes. Before that, when the assembly got There

together, there was no one holding the microphone.

was a podium -- there was a mic stand and the microphone. And after the vote and after we attempted to make those points of order to call for roll-call votes, the mic stand was taken away, and there was a person with the microphone now. And -- and -- and now it was both muted and -- and

inaccessible. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Okay. Yeah. Did you recognize the person? No. So a person has the microphone. Did anyone At that point, there's a person --

managing the election explain why this change? A. Q. No. They. Did anyone

Did anyone explain -- let me just.
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explain the procedure for using the microphone now that a human was holding it rather than being on a stand and people lining up, as is often the case in these type of meetings? A. No. What appeared to be going on is that the

moderator, Mr. Rocha, was the one giving orders to the person with the microphone as to whom had access -- could have access to it. Q. So once -- so there's no procedure -- for

example, sometimes in these types of meetings, someone will have a microphone and people will raise their hands and the person will walk -- to save people from walking up and crowding around, they'll walk -- was there a process -A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. No. -- explained by which -No. -- they could do that? No. That would be typical of these -No. The process -- the process -- and everybody

there understood it -- is just kind of stand around in line, and then you have access to it. Q. Right. But once the person -- the human was

holding the mic, how did people get a chance to use the
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mic? A. They did not know how. It appeared that they --

you have to appeal to the chair, the moderator, Rocha, and he would decide whether or not you could have access to it. Q. So then would you say at that point, the access

wasn't free -- was access freely given to any member who asked to use the mic -A. Q. A. No. -- once it was given to a person? At that point, it was stifled and biased and

selective and only to those that Mr. Rocha acknowledged as having access to the microphone had access. Q. Okay. I appreciate that. I'm going to ask it in

kind of in a yes/no way, too. Once -- once there was a change made where the person was holding the microphone instead of it being on the stand, was it your observation that each delegate -- each member -- each delegate who was in there had the same access to the microphone as any other delegate? A. Q. No. Do you believe that when it was on the stand and

not managed by a person, was the access equal? A. No -- well, yes, it was. You could come up to

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it. Q. A. Q. Yeah. Yes. -- would wait in line. So the access was So anyone, whatever their point of view --

relatively equal -A. Q. Yes. -- compared to -- okay. Thank you.

Was Cora Esquivel threatened during -- at any time during the assembly? A. Q. Yes. Can you explain how that carried out -- was

carried out? A. I had not met Cora Esquivel aside from seeing her And at the national convention,

at the state convention. I was seated here. by state. to me.

I was seated here, and they seat you

I was seated here, and Cora came and sat next

I really don't know -- I hadn't met her to a certain extent at that point. She sat next to me. And

all of the sudden, she started to -- to have David Hernandez being next to her and started telling her things, telling her things. And she -- she grabbed me and said, "Well, you know what? I don't know what's going on. They don't

want me to speak."

This is -- this is -- this is after we
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had had the vote, by the way.

And she had made an attempt

to have repeated access to the microphone denied. Q. A. Okay. She sat down next to me and then said to me, "I

need to go to the rest room, but I'm afraid to go by myself. Can you accompany me? These people are around

me, and I don't feel safe, and I need someone to go with me to the rest room." And being a male, I walked up to another delegate who is a female and asked if -- the three of us went and accompanied her to the rest room. At that point, we had David Hernandez being like a satellite around here like that, staring at her, to be honest, with aggressive eyes and just having her feeling threatened, you know -Q. A. Okay. -- and stifled. MR. FORD: THE COURT: No further questions. You may step down.

May this witness be excused? MR. GUAJARDO: reserve. THE COURT: recalled as a witness. THE WITNESS: Okay. Okay. That means you might get No, Your Honor. We'd like to

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MR. FORD:

Can Mr. Soto be released for the

MR. GUAJARDO:

Yes.

He's a party, but

We'd still like to be able to recall him. THE COURT: Okay. You may be recalled in

the future, but released for the day. MR. FORD: THE COURT: Keynesian or Hayekian? THE WITNESS: Oh, Keynesian, absolutely. We'll see. You Thank you. Mr. Soto, before you leave,

Well, they never tried the [ inaudible ] there. THE COURT:

I knew that before I asked.

should be impressed I know the difference. MR. FORD: Cordero, please. Okay. Joseph is not available right now. Okay. The plaintiffs call Joseph

I'll call Sandra Cordero. THE COURT: Sandra -- if you'll come

forward, Ms. Cordero, right here in front of my clerk where the table is where the stuff is stacked. COURT CLERK: for me, please. THE WITNESS: DeSoto, D-e S-o-t-o. COURT CLERK: Thank you very much. C-o-r-d-e-r-o, hyphenated, Could you spell your last name

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. FORD: Q. Okay.

(Witness sworn.) THE COURT: Go around behind the podium.

You're going to go up this ramp, and you're going to end up over here on my left in this chair. step. Just relax. questions for you. THE WITNESS: Okay. Mr. Ford will have some And watch your

SANDRA CORDERO-DE SOTO, a witness herein, having been first duly sworn to speak the truth and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION

So we are going to ask to look at

Exhibit 9.

Please. THE COURT: Does someone want to approach

and give her that exhibit? BY MR. FORD: Q. A. Q. A. Q. Do you have before you Exhibit 9? Yes. Do you go by Ms. Cordero or Ms. DeSoto? Cordero-DeSoto. Okay.
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A. Q.

It doesn't matter. Okay. Well, I want to be addressing you the way

you want to hear it. A. Q. A. Q. DeSoto. Okay. Yes. Is this a -- does this exhibit -- did you -- was Ms. DeSoto, do you recognize this exhibit?

this exhibit sent to you? A. This was a check that Mr. Moran had made me for

one of the vans. Q. Okay. So -- first of all, are these, to your

knowledge, true and correct copies of the checks that are presented? A. Q. It's a three-page exhibit.

Yes. And can you -- let's see. The exhibit -- it

looks like the checks on the first and the third pages or -- I see they're different. the first page. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Okay. So let's start with

You see -- what check number is it?

Check No. 1192. Okay. Yes. Who is he? He's my son. Okay. And that "for" line, what's that say? And it's to Joseph Cordero?

"Trans" -- that's for transportation.
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Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A.

"Trans" for transportation? Yes. And can you see who the check is from? It was from Mr. Moran. From Mr. Moran? Yeah. It says LULAC 4303. That's his council. Okay. Yes. MR. FORD: At some point, Your Honor, I'm And that's in San Antonio, Texas? Do you know what that is? It doesn't --

going to ask -- I might as well just do it right now since we're on the topic. Exhibit 10 is a printout of the River And it

City LULAC, San Antonio, Texas chapter of LULAC. shows on the left side Oscar Moran as president.

I just wanted to the ask the Court, under I think it's Rule of Evidence 201(b) to take judicial notice of this Exhibit 10. THE COURT: Mr. Guajardo? I'm not sure what -- judicial

MR. GUAJARDO: notice of what, Your Honor? THE COURT: president of LULAC 4303. MR. GUAJARDO: sole issue, Your Honor.

That Mr. Oscar Moran is the

That's fine but only for that

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 page -A. Q. Yes. Okay. BY MR. FORD: Q. Okay.

THE COURT:

The Court takes judicial notice

that Mr. Moran is the president of 4303. MR. FORD: Thank you.

So -- and so this check is from, as you've

testified -- I just wanted to make sure we all understood his role -- it came from LULAC 4303. The next check, if you switch to the next

That was the second check he gave me. And is that -- that's sent -- that's made

out to you, is it? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. And -That's to pay for another -- another van. Okay. So -- so LULAC Council 4303 in San

Antonio, Texas, is paying for a van used by LULAC Council -- one of the Tucson councils? A. Q. A. Yes. And if you go to the third page. It's a copy of the -- of the -- the second page

of 11 -- check No. 1191 -Q. A. Q. Oh, that's right. -- showing his name. It just shows his signature?
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A. Q.

It just shows that it's Oscar Moran. Okay. So -- all right. And these are -- and I

think I already asked this, but are these true and correct copies of the originals? A. Yes. MR. FORD: Move to admit Exhibit 9, please. Objection on relevancy, Your

MR. GUAJARDO: Honor.

I'm not sure there's any connection to -- well, on

one hand, he's -THE COURT: I'll -- exhibit -- I'm going to I

admit them as true and correct copies of the checks. don't know what they -MR. GUAJARDO: Honor. THE COURT: correct copies. MR. GUAJARDO: Well, but there's no I don't know that, Your

She testified they're true and

connection to any of the defendants. any of the issues.

It's not relevant to

I mean, he's being nice to them and And yet, you know, he's been

paying for transportation.

bad-mouthed here, so I'm not sure how that is relevant. MR. FORD: If I may, Your Honor, Oscar

Moran, as said in testimony that wasn't objected to, that Oscar Moran is the husband of the president of LULAC, whose name is Margaret Moran.
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MR. GUAJARDO: whether they're married. THE COURT: they're copies of checks.

That's not a proper issue,

Well, I'll admit them that I don't know -- so I'm not

admitting them as proof of anything at this point except that they're copies of checks. MR. FORD: That's fine. Thank you.

Ms. DeSoto, did you attend the LULAC convention,

national convention, in Las Vegas? A. Q. Yes, I did. And I'll ask the Court to forgive me. I

neglected to ask you to state your name for the record. A. Q. A. Q. A. Sandra Cordero-DeSoto. And your -I'm --- your residence? I live in Tucson. Tucson, Arizona. I'm on

Council 1191. Q. A. Q. A. Q. 2003?
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Are you an officer of Council 1191? No. You're a member, a LULAC member? I'm a member, a LULAC member. Were you a member in good standing for the year

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A. Q. A.

No. 2013. I misspoke. My bad. 2013, last year.

I was just -- the way it was worked out is that

they went ahead and registered me, and they made me in good standing. Q. A. Q. And I've --

Who is "they"? The -- the national convention. Well, let me back up. Did you -- did you pay

membership -- do you recall paying membership dues -A. Q. A. Q. No. -- in 2013? No. Did you pay to be registered at the convention in

Las Vegas? A. Q. No. Did you pay for a hotel room while you stayed in

Las Vegas? A. Q. A. Q. No. Did you pay to transport yourself to Las Vegas? No. So you didn't have an outlay for which these

checks could possibly represent a reimbursement? A. Q. No. Okay. Can you explain the significance of these

checks that are in Exhibit 9?
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A.

Okay.

The agreement was that they wanted to make

sure that they got members or -- well, people up to go vote for Mrs. Moran. And one of the agreements was there We had to pay

was -- making the transportation and hotel. for just gas and our own food. Also, Mr. Moran gave -Q. A. Q.

Do you recall who that agreement was with? With Mr. Vera. So Mr. Vera and you, or did you make that

arrangement with Mr. Vera? A. Q. A. No. Okay. Joseph and my mom had -We'll have to --

They e-mailed them, and there was a paper

showing -- which I sent to you showing that it came from his law office. Q. A. Q. you $500? A. The same day that he gave me the check but later All right. Thank you. When you were --

Also -- also Mr. Moran gave me $500. Okay. So Mr. Moran -- when did Mr. Moran give

on during the day. Q. Do you remember, was that the day of the vote or

the day before? A. Q. The day before. The 21st?
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A. Q. why he -A. Q. A.

Yeah. Okay. And so did he come up and -- do you know

I went up to him --- gave you the$500? I went up to him to give him the other papers for

the other vans that he was going to pay for, and he said that he would have to get some more money, but here's $500 to use on either transportation or food or whatever. Q. So there seem to be a lot of nice people in

LULAC, but why would he just hand you $500 for food and transportation and everything? A. Q. For the vote. For the vote. MR. FORD: Pass the witness. Why was that?

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. A. Q. A. Q. Was there any agreement in writing? No. It was all verbal? Yes. And so you were allowed to participate at the

national convention, correct? A. Yes.
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Q. delegate? A. Q.

And you participated as a national convention

Yes. And who did you vote for? MR. FORD: Objection. Relevance.

MR. GUAJARDO: for her vote.

Well, she said she was paid

I was just wondering who she voted for. THE COURT: Overruled.

BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. A. running. Q. A. Q. A. going on. Q. I just asked you yes or no. Did you vote for You didn't vote for Margaret -No, I didn't --- Moran? -- because there were other things that were Who did you vote for? What was her name? The other lady that was

Margaret or no? A. Q. No, I didn't because -Thank you, ma'am. So, in the end -- in the end,

you saw that Mr. Domingo Garcia withdrew his candidacy, correct? A. Q. Yes or no? Yes, I did. And -- and the lady you voted for was Maggie
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Rivera, who Mr. Domingo Garcia endorsed, correct? A. Q. I didn't hear him say that. Mary Ramos. I'm sorry; not Rivera. Mary Ramos

was the one that ran for national president against Margaret Moran, correct? A. Q. Margaret? A. Yes, because I didn't approve of what was going That's who you voted for?

I don't remember what her name was. You voted for the other candidate, not for

on during the convention. Q. You didn't vote for Margaret, but you voted for

the opponent, correct? A. Yes, because I didn't approve of what was going

on in the convention. Q. I'm not asking that, ma'am. I just want to know:

You voted for the person running against Margaret Moran, Mary Ramos, correct? A. Q. Yes, I did. And so, in the end, you were able to do whatever Nobody said "Oh, no, you can't do

you wanted to, correct? that"? A. Q. A. Q.

They were trying to transfer my vote. You were able to vote? There were -Yes or no? Did you vote?
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Yes or no?

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A. Q.

Yes, I did. Thank you, ma'am. Now, what was your due process right that

you were deprived of, if any, at the national convention? A. process. Q. My due process right was I didn't have a due I did vote because -Okay. So you were not deprived of any due Yes or no?

process because you voted? A. Q. No, I wasn't.

You were -- you were allowed to vote, and you

participated fully, like any other certified delegate, correct? A. Q. A. Q. A. No, not like -Ma'am --- any other delegate. You just told me that you were allowed to vote. Yeah, but you're saying "like any other

delegate." Q. A. Q. No, I'm not saying like any other delegate. You just said it, sir. I'm saying you were allowed to vote, and you got

the full extent of whatever it is that you were allowed to do as a delegate, correct, personally? A. Q. Personally, yes. All right. So you haven't been harmed by being
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deprived to vote, have you? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A.

You, personally?

Yes, I have been harmed because -In this case --- I was brought up for the wrong reasons. Ma'am, you just told me you were allowed to vote. Yeah, but -So you have not been harmed by being deprived? Yes, I have been harmed. MR. FORD: Objection. Argumentative. It

calls for a legal opinion. THE COURT: Sustained. Badgering.

MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT: argumentative. MR. GUAJARDO: BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. claiming?

I'm sorry. You're

Sustained.

Okay.

So what, if any, due process right are you You said you were allowed to vote. I'm

just curious. A. I was brought -- I was brought to come and vote

for Mrs. Moran for my vote, but the reason why I didn't vote for her is because they wanted to transfer our votes to other councils. Q. A. But that never happened? And we chose not to do it.
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Q. correct? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q.

That never happened; no transferring was done,

Because we voted not to. You just said you refused to do it. But they promised -Ma'am --- that they would pay for my -Ma'am, just answer the question. They got mad at me -Your votes were not transferred, correct? My vote wasn't transferred, but -Ma'am --- they didn't want to pay my -- the vans. Just answer my question. MR. FORD: Judge, he's badgering the

witness. MR. GUAJARDO: answer. Judge, I can't get a simple

He keeps interrupting. THE COURT: Ma'am, listen to his question The way this works is you have

and answer his question.

to answer the question he asks, not the question you want him to ask. THE WITNESS: BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. You were not forced to transfer to any other
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Okay.

I'm sorry.

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council or anything else, correct? A. Q. correct? A. Q. We were told to.

You were not --

But you were not forced, and you didn't do it,

We were told and we didn't do it. So you didn't do it. So you got to do what you

wanted, correct? A. Yes. MR. GUAJARDO: Your Honor. Okay. We'd pass the witness,

REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. FORD: Q. Ms. DeSoto, how -- there is some foundational lag Were you -- were you registered at

here, it seems like.

the convention in Las Vegas to vote -- to -- did you register at the -A. Q. Yes. -- convention? Yes.

Did you get credentialed? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. And did you attend the voting assembly? Yes. How is it, then, that you -- it seems to me you

didn't -- you feel like you did not have the same sort of
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rights as any other certified delegate. experience different? A.

How was your

My experience is because they wanted us to be They

transferred to other councils to get the vote out. were telling us -Q.

When you say to "get the vote out," do you mean

to transfer -A. Q. A. To Ms. Moran. -- votes to Ms. Moran? Do you -And

I was in the room when they were doing that.

they were trying to sign the papers -- where they were trying to get Joseph to sign the papers when my mom left the room, Cora. Q. A. Q. Okay. Yes. Were you in the Senate Room at the time this was So you were in the Senate Room?

happening? A. Q. of -A. Q. A. Q. Yes. -- their trying to get the -Yes. Okay. And we'll get to that with your son's Yes, I was. So you observed; you have personal knowledge

testimony.
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. FORD: Q. shows -here. Honor.

Did you feel any sort of pressure, having been given $500, to vote in any certain way? A. Q. A. Yeah. I -- I was given some pressure.

And what form did that take? It was where, you know -- you know, you need to I'm going to give you the money, but now,

vote for her.

you know, I'm not going to pay you until after -- pay you for the other vans until after the convention is over. Q. And who is saying this to you? MR. GUAJARDO: Objection. Hearsay, Your

THE WITNESS: MR. GUAJARDO: what was said -THE WITNESS: MR. GUAJARDO:

Mr. Moran. Objection. Hearsay as to

Mr. Moran. -- by someone who is not

MR. FORD:

But it shows state of mind,

THE COURT: MR. FORD:

Overruled. -- pressure.

Before the Tucson convention on the 8th of June,

had you been a member of LULAC before? A. Many years ago.
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Q. A. Q. A.

But not for a long time? Yeah. When in 2013 did you become a member? What day?

I think it was just before they had the state

convention. Q. June. before? A. Q. So the state convention was held on the 8th of Was it that day of the convention or one day Do you happen to recall? Maybe a couple of weeks or so. So your testimony is that approximately two weeks

before the -A. Q. A. at all. Q. Okay. It wasn't a month or anything like that? Probably. -- convention? Okay. It wasn't very long

I don't know the estimate.

It was less time? A. I think so. I'm not sure. Okay. Pass the witness.

MR. FORD:

RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. LULAC? A. I have not read it because they were supposed to
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Ma'am, do you believe in the constitution of

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send us the constitution. Q. A. Do you know it's available by website? After -- after they signed us up, and we never

received it until just recently. Q. Well, you said you had been a member for many

years before. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yeah, but -And you were aware of the constitution, correct? But that's more than -Are you aware of the constitution or not? I'm aware of it. Okay. And when you follow -- when you agree --

when you agree as a member -- when you join, you agree to follow the constitution, correct? A. Q. A. Q. Yeah. But isn't the vice president --

Ma'am, just --- and president supposed to? Do you or do you not agree when you become a Yes or

member to be bound by the constitution of LULAC? no? A. Q. Yes, but -Thank you, ma'am.

Are you still a Domingo Garcia supporter? MR. FORD: THE COURT: Objection. Sustained. Relevance.

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BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. Do you -- do you believe that -- that somehow

someone agreeing or, as you said, supposedly was promising to help you with -- with your room and board and all of that, that you got to exercise the vote as you want to, how is that -- how is that harming you economically, ma'am? I'm not sure I get it. I mean, you got to do what

you wanted. A. Q. A. Q. It harmed me because -- no. You were not pressured to the point -You were saying -You were not pressured to the point where you

were not able to exercise your independent will; you did, in fact, say, "I'm going to vote for the opponent," and you were able to exercise that vote, correct? A. Sir, you just asked me economically how did it

affect me. Q. A. question. Q. Your lawyer is going to ask you those questions. I'm just saying you were given money -You're not giving me a chance to answer the

I want to ask you -- I want to ask you my questions, and I'm asking you if you would please -- we could both get through this a lot easier if you would just answer my question.
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A. Q.

Well, I was trying to, but you don't let me. You were given money -- you said you were given

$520 for a van, another $520 -A. Q. 500. -- for a van, another $500 at the convention.

They paid for your room and board. That's economic health, isn't it -- to you, correct? A. Q. Yes or no? Not afterwards. Not talking about the things that I just

mentioned -A. Q. Not accurate. They gave you 520, another 520, then 500, and

then they paid your room and board at the convention. That's assisting you to be there, correct? MR. FORD: it's so argumentative. MR. GUAJARDO: I'm not sure that -- that Either Oscar I object to this question because

they can have -- they can have it both ways.

did something improper, or he was simply trying to help her economically; I'm not sure. THE WITNESS: MR. GUAJARDO: Judge. THE COURT: It is cross-examination. And Oscar did it -It's cross-examination,

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you can ask that alternative.

But you've got to give her

a chance to answer your questions also. MR. GUAJARDO: BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. Ma'am, Oscar Moran, in fact, assisted you to go Okay.

to the convention by paying these -- these amounts, correct? A. Q. He promised to pay all amounts. Well, we know that he paid these amounts at

least, correct? A. Q. A. Q. No. He promised to pay all amounts.

Well, regardless of what you think -And he was going to pay me all amounts. I'm just trying to find out, if you can just

answer my question, you agree that he paid these amounts in question? A. Q. So at least he paid these amounts, correct?

Yes, and he still owes -And that was at least some help towards getting

to the convention, correct? A. No. The agreement was to pay all amounts, and we

were going to vote for him until they got mad at us. Q. Ma'am, you just told me that you have no proof of

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Q. A. Q. A. Q. Court?

Where is the agreement? -- where he had paid for the van -Where is it? -- for some of the vans. Where is the agreement that you can bring to the This is the time to present evidence. Where is

your agreement? A. vans. Q. A. Q. A. Q. talking. THE COURT: MR. FORD: BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. I'm just saying there's no document that says Where You're arguing. He's badgering the witness. I know, but there's nothing -He paid for her room -There's nothing -He paid for -There's no document -- ma'am, excuse me. I'm This should be agreement. He's paying for the

that he's going to pay for all the costs, is there? is the document that says that he's going to do that? A. Q. there. A. There was an e-mail -480.227.4077 www.TAtrans.com TRUAUDIO TRANSCRIBERS, LLC

The e-mails maybe might help. What e-mails? Show me. You've got them right

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Q. A. Q. A. Q.

What e-mail? -- that Mr. Vera got the vans for us -What e-mail says that --- had them reserved. They came --

What e-mail says that Oscar Moran is going to pay Where?

for those vans? A. Q. A.

He told me he was going to pay for it. So there's nothing written, correct? It was verbally. MR. GUAJARDO: Okay. We'd pass the witness,

Your Honor.

FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. FORD: Q. Ms. DeSoto, real quick, you asked who you voted

for and you gave the answer, and you wanted to explain why. Just very briefly, can you explain why you voted for

an alternate person besides Margaret Moran? A. Because I didn't like the ethics that they had

where they wanted to transfer our votes to other -- they want to put us in other councils. Q. A. Okay. Thank you.

And then, too, they weren't letting the other

people from Arizona vote. Q. Did Oscar Moran promise to pay for all of your
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transportation -A. Q. Yes. -- for all the councils? Did he, in fact, do so? A. Q. A. Q. A. No. What economic damage have you suffered? Financially -Yeah, financially. -- I had already talked to him about -- I told

him that day -- I go -- because I need to get paid for it because my husband is on dialysis and that I needed that money back right away. Q. A. Q. Okay. So --

And I haven't gotten it back. There's some money you didn't -- some -- do you

have an estimate of the amount of money? A. Q. A. Close to 1800. $1800, roughly? Yeah, on my part. MR. FORD: THE COURT: No further questions, Your Honor. I have one question. Were you

an alternate or a delegate to the convention? THE WITNESS: THE COURT: BY MR. FORD:
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I was delegate. Any follow-up?

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Q.

Were those who were trying to do the

transferring -- and we've named them, Rivera and Hernandez and some of the other, the Mireles and so forth -- did they try to transfer you as a delegate or alternates in your councils? A. Alternates in our council. But I call it as

"we," because we are one. MR. FORD: THE COURT: Okay. No further questions.

Mr. Guajardo, any follow-up?

FURTHER RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. Again, you were not forced to transfer, and none

of your council's alternates were required or compelled to transfer, correct? A. We did not do it. MR. GUAJARDO: THE WITNESS: MR. GUAJARDO: THE WITNESS: THE COURT: That's all I had. And Mr. Moran -Thank you, ma'am. -- got upset with it. You may step down.

May this witness be excused? MR. FORD: Yes, from the plaintiffs' side. We reserve the right to call

MR. GUAJARDO: her back.

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. FORD: Q. record. A. Q. forward. Cordero.

THE COURT: date, just so you know. THE WITNESS: MR. FORD:

You might be recalled at a later

Okay.

The plaintiffs will call Joseph

THE COURT:

Mr. Cordero, please come

You're going to stand here in front of this

table in front of my clerk to be sworn. (Witness sworn.) THE COURT: on my left in the seat. You're going to end up over here And watch your step, please.

Your mother tripped there, too.

JOSEPH CORDERO, a witness herein, having been first duly sworn to speak the truth and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION

All right, sir.

Please state your name for the

Joseph Cordero. And, Mr. Cordero, where is your city of

residence?
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A. Q.

Tucson, Arizona. And are you -- were you a member of LULAC in the

year 2013? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. What -- how long have you been involved in LULAC? Well, it's been about a year, so -- basically. So we're going to just have you talk about it

through the exhibits. We'll start with Exhibit 5, Mr. Garcia. Do you have Exhibit 5 before you, Mr. Cordero? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. It appears to be an e-mail. Yes. First of all, is it a true and correct copy of Is that from you?

the e-mail? A. Q. Yes. And it's from you to C. Munoz. Who would that

be, do you know? A. That's Ms. Munoz. I believe she is the national

fiscal officer. Q. A. Q. And that's at LULAC.org. Yes. So that would appear to be through LULAC as

Mr. Guajardo's name is mentioned, the URL of the
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organization earlier today -A. Q. speak. As per request to release -- so can you read the first two lines? A. The first two lines. So basically -- well, the Yes. -- it would appear to be a LULAC person, so to

main thing is it's rooms and names that -Q. Yes. If you could just read to the Court the

first two lines, starting with "as," just very brief. A. Oh. "As per requested to Luis by Cora Esquivel."

And then, "Here is what you requested about the room." Q. A. Who is -- do you know who Luis is, by any chance? From what I know -- I believe I did speak with

him once -- he is a lawyer in San Antonio who was also helping them, you know, with making reservations. Q. A. Q. Do you know his last name? Vera, I believe. Vera. Okay. So this is a communication that

shows that your grandmother, Ms. Esquivel, was requesting to Luis Vera, who -- okay. Here it's been established That was in

is -- LULAC National General Counsel. Exhibit 11. Okay.

So we have LULAC National General Counsel, in touch with Cora. Here's what you requested about the
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rooms. What does this have to do with, Mr. Cordero, this exhibit? A. Q. e-mail? A. What does this have to do to? Yes. In other words, what is the purpose of this

What were they talking about? Just for reserving some rooms for the councils

that we had going with us to go and stay and obviously to go to the convention over there in Vegas. Q. A. Q. Okay. Yes. The councils from Tucson? MR. FORD: Exhibit 5. MR. GUAJARDO: Honor. Objection. Relevance, Your Move to admit into evidence And these are the Tucson councils?

It also calls for hearsay. THE COURT: Overruled. It's admitted.

Exhibit 5. BY MR. FORD: Q. Okay. We are going to go next to Exhibit 6. Do

you have Exhibit 6 before you? A. Q. Yes. Okay. And that is -- can you describe the first

page of it? A. It's a letter from LULAC.
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Q. bottom. A. Q. A. Q. letter? A.

And who is the signature by?

It's written at the

The signature is from Lupe Mireles -Okay. -- the national membership director. Okay. And so what is the first line of the

"Dear Mr. Cordero," what does it say after that? It says, "Congratulations. You are chartered as

an official council of the League of United Latin American Citizens, LULAC." Q. Okay. That's good. Perfect. All right. So

let's flip to the next page, the second page of Exhibit 6. A. Q. A. Q. A. Yes. And who is that addressed to? That is to myself, Joseph Cordero. And what's the purpose of this? It is to certify that LULAC Council 1191, which I

am the president of, has been paid -- has paid the 251 to the LULAC national office on the 17th of May, 2013. Q. A. With a credit card? Credit card numbers, and then it says, "AMEX for

payment of charter fees." Q. What do you know about -- what does "AMEX" stand

A.

From what I know, it is American Express.
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Q. A. Q.

It's shorthand for American Express? Yes. Which is a card company. And do you have an AMEX

card yourself? A. Q. A. Q. A. No. Did you pay for this registration? No. So do you know who paid for it? No. MR. FORD: Okay. Move to admit Exhibit 6.

MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT: admitted. BY MR. FORD: Q. Okay.

Same objection, Your Honor. Exhibit 6 is

Overruled.

Exhibits -- oh, we're going to go back to And And

Exhibit 6 just for one quick -- very quick question. just look at the top of the first page of Exhibit 6.

would you note for us, the Court, the date of the letter. A. Q. May 28th, 2013. And flip the page. And note the date of receipt

of payment. A. Q. A. Q. Receipt of payment is May 17th, 2013. At the top of the page? Oh, at the top of the page, it's May 28th, 2013. Okay. It sounds like the payment was made on a
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certain date, but the date of this document is the 28th. All right. Thank you, Mr. Cordero. We'll go ahead and go to Exhibit 7. have Exhibit 7 before you? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yes. Okay. This is a -- an e-mail sent to whom? Do you

To myself. And it was from -Mr. John Mireles. Okay. And the date on the top right is?

The e-mail was sent on June 14th, 2013. And is this, this copy here, a true and correct

copy of the e-mail -A. Q. A. Q. string. Yes. -- to your personal knowledge? Yes. And the -- let's see. This looks like an e-mail

If you read down, there's a message from John It's the 7th of

Mireles and it's a few days earlier.

June, so that's actually right before the state convention in Tucson. A. Q. A. Q. Um-hmm. And it says it's to Lupe at LULAC? Yes. Okay. And that might be Ms. Mireles as mentioned
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above.

And then there's a copy to Margaret Moran, who is

the president? A. Q. Yes. And the subject, can you read the "subject" line

for us, please? A. The subject is -- it says, "Regarding Arizona

LULAC council members, membership rosters." Q. A. Q. A. And then flip the page to the next page. Um-hmm. And if you can read that top line for the Court. "Please e-mail me the entire Arizona LULAC

council membership rosters." Q. Okay. So Mr. Mireles, it looks like, is

requesting rosters, and then he sends them to you? A. Yes. MR. FORD: Okay. Now, I'm going to offer

this exhibit into evidence at this time, Exhibit 7. MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT: of this exhibit. MR. FORD: It shows that he -- Mr. Cordero Same objection, Your Honor.

I'm not sure I get the relevance

was sent the membership roster to the next exhibit, which I'll ask him to authenticate. next exhibit. THE COURT: I'll admit it as a transmittal It's sort of tied to the

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letter. BY MR. FORD: Q. Okay. Exhibit 8, do you have that before you,

Mr. Cordero? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Yes. Okay. And can you tell me what that is?

It's the 2013 LULAC member list. Can you see the date on the top left? On the top left is June 7, 2013. And so this is a list of members of LULAC? Yes, for state of Arizona, I believe. MR. FORD: Move to admit Exhibit 8. Same objection, Your Honor. What's

MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT: your objection to this? MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT:

Restate your objection.

Yes, Your Honor.

This is --

I have a short memory. -- hearsay in that it's not

MR. GUAJARDO:

been authenticated as an official business record of -THE COURT: Is this -We have a roster with names,

MR. GUAJARDO:

and I don't know whether he's talking about these are members in good standing after they were rejected by the the legal opinion or before, when Lupe Mireles erroneously thought that Zazueta was a member in good standing.
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So --

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. FORD: Q. that e-mail?

THE COURT:

Was this the list attached to

MR. FORD: THE COURT:

Yes. I'm going to admit it just as

the list attached to the e-mail and give it no significance as to what it represents. MR. GUAJARDO: MR. FORD: further testimony. BY MR. FORD: Q. Is this a true and correct copy of the official All right, Your Honor.

I'm going to now elicit some

roster for the state of Arizona that was sent by LULAC officials to you? A. Q. Yes. And this official roster of the Arizona

delegation shows that all members of the Phoenix and San Luis members were in good standing as of the date of the roster? A. Q. Yes. Which is the 7th of June, which is before the --

either of the conventions. Okay. Sorry for that delay, Your Honor. That's all right.

THE COURT:

Did you attend the Arizona convention on the 8th
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of June? A. Q. Yes. Actually, I'm going to ask -- I'm going to scroll

back a little bit if you can hear me while you're doing that. On the 7th of June of 2013, there was testimony from your grandmother regarding a strategy meeting that took place in the Desert Diamond resort in Tucson. Did you also attend that meeting along with your

grandmother? A. Q. Yes, I did accompany her. And to your personal information, what was the

purpose of that meeting from what you could tell or hear? A. From what I knew of, you know, my grandmother And for me,

just was invited to the meeting to show up.

it was kind of an experience just to go in and kind of meet some of the people of the LULAC council for Arizona. You know, but -Q. Do you have an idea of why they were holding that

meeting or the -- what they were trying to accomplish when they were discussing things at that meeting? A. it. Not at that time. Not like when I was going into

But then as I began to kind of be inside there and,

you know, hear things, you know, they were talking about the rules and what needs to be done in order to stop
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people from voting, you know, kind of press them. know, it was just lots of stuff going on. Q. Okay. Thanks.

You

And how were they treating your

grandmother that day? A. her. When she went in, you know, they just praised You know, she's a former VI -- vice president for And you know, I guess she made her name

the Young Adults. in LULAC.

And you know, a lot of people were greeting

her, they were telling stories about her and stuff like that. They were praising her to me. "This is your grandmother. You know,

You should be proud of her."

You know, that's the message I got from them, you know, that they had this feeling towards her. Q. And so the next day, did you attend the

convention in Tucson? A. Q. A. time. Q. And did you -- where were you that -- during the Like where were you -Yes. What time did you arrive? I arrived around 7:00, 7:30, in between that

course of the morning? A. Q. A.

During the course of the morning? Where were you in the morning? I was just kind of walking around, just kind of
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getting a feel for it, just seeing what's going on, you know, how they're setting up and stuff like that. Q. And did you observe -- do you happen to have

observed and remembered when the registration was open? A. 9:00. Q. 8:30, 9:00. So it's advertised, as Exhibit 1 From what I remember, it was open around 8:30,

points out, at 8:00 -- to start at 8:00, but it really wasn't open until 8:30 or 9:00? A. Q. Yes. Did you happen to see when they closed the

registration? A. Q. Not really, no. Okay. Were you -- was your -- did your council

go to this -- attend this with you? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. Were you registered to vote? Yes. Were you credentialed to vote, that next step, to

get a badge -A. Q. A. Q. rooms. Yes. -- or whatever the icon is? Yes. And did you go -- we talked about these different Did you go into that room with all the chairs and
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the people standing and sitting, did you go into that room? A. Q. A. Q. Yeah, the main room where all -The main room? Yes. When that was going on, were you seated to vote,

or were you left standing? A. Q. A. Q. I was seated. You were seated to vote? Yes. And do you recall the process of voting? In

other words, did they -- did they have a roll-call vote or do you remember what kind of vote it was? A. I wasn't too familiar with that, you know,

because this was my first experience. Q. A. Q. hand -A. Q. A. Q. No. -- to vote for someone at some point in time? No. Okay. Okay. I'm going to move over to Las Vegas Were you -- there was All right. And so -So did you -- do you remember raising your

and ask you a couple questions.

testimony earlier about this -- this room called the
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Senate Room in the hotel. A. Q. Um-hmm. And in the Senate Room, defendants and others

were managing -- appearing to manage -- sort of facilitate a registration? A. Q. Room? A. There were -- from what I saw and can recollect, Yes. What did you observe happening in the Senate

they were pretty much expressing on expediting the registration process. Q. Do you -- did you see during that convention

other -- was -- was everyone treated like that at the convention or were there -A. Q. A. No. And how were other LULAC members treated? Other people were told to wait in the line and They weren't --

stuff like that. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q.

Did you see these lines? Yes. How long were they or how long -They were pretty long, pretty long, long -Were people waiting in them for hours or -I would say yes, from what I know. Okay. Were you ever asked to -- were you ever
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asked to engage in -- were you ever asked to engage in delegate transferring? In other words, that practice would be described by which alternates from councils who already have a full complement of delegates for voting be transferred to other councils that are friendly the defendants and the Morans so they could ensure their victory in the vote. A. Q. Yes. Were you -- was a -- was a letter at one point

presented to you? A. Q. Yes. And what was the letter -MR. GUAJARDO: Honor. THE COURT: BY MR. FORD: Q. Was there -- how did they communicate to you Sustained. Objection. Leading, Your

their desire to -- how are all the ways they communicated their desire that you transfer delegates? A. Well, pretty much, they told me that I had extra

people at the convention, and with those extra people, you know, they would like them to be transferred so they would have full councils to participate in the election to vote. Q. And was there any written communication to you as
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well? A. Q. A. They drafted a letter right then and there. And what was the purpose of the letter? To give permission for me to transfer delegates

over to other councils. Q. That would be for you to give permission to them

to transfer? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. And were you asked to sign the letter? Yes. And what was your understanding of the effect of

your -- if you had signed the letter, what do you think the effect of that would have been? MR. GUAJARDO: MR. FORD: THE COURT: BY MR. FORD: Q. A. Q. A. Did you sign the letter? No. Why? I thought it was morally wrong. And you know, Objection. Speculation.

Okay. Sustained.

obviously, you know -Q. A. What was morally wrong exactly? Just the way it went about. You know, obviously, It wasn't done

it was right -- done right then and there.
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in a professional manner.

You know, obviously, they could

have done something -- it just seemed kind of out of the ordinary or -Q. A. Q. Out of the ordinary? Yeah. Okay. Did it appear to you that they were trying

to rig the election? A. Q. From -- yeah. Can you turn to page -- do you still have I'm going to ask you to

Exhibit 8 before you or at hand?

turn to page 20 -- page 26 of that exhibit. A. Q. name? A. Q. list? A. Q. Yes. And to your knowledge -- to your personal Juan Zazueta. So Juan Zazueta is listed on this membership Yes. And at the bottom, can you read the very bottom

knowledge, was he in good standing by being on this list? A. Q. Yes. Okay. I don't -MR. FORD: I just want to verify with the

Court that Exhibit 8 has been admitted into evidence. THE COURT: Yes, it has.

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MR. FORD:

Okay.

Pass the witness.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. Mr. Cordero, is it fair to say that you're fairly

new to LULAC? A. Q. Yes. In fact, 2013 was your very first year in LULAC;

is that right? A. Q. Yes. So when you said you were not familiar with the

credentialing process, it could be because you were brand new to LULAC, perhaps? A. Q. I would say yes. And when you said at the national convention that

you were asked to sign a letter to transfer alternates, you don't have any personal knowledge that anyone actually was transferred, do you? A. Q. No. You didn't see anybody actually transferred, did

Are you familiar with the national -- rather, are

you familiar with the constitution and bylaws of LULAC? A. No.
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Q. A. Q.

Have you ever read it at all? I did not get through it yet, no. But you're aware that it's available to you

anytime you want to; just download it on LULAC.org? A. Q. A. Q. They did not discuss that with us. Do you know that? They didn't tell me. Did your grandmother, Cora Esquivel, tell you

that you could do that? A. Q. Not that I can recall. Sir, it seems that -- your testimony seems to be

that this roster that you received on June 7th, that that somehow is an official roster. Were you aware that, in

fact, there was an error in -- in certifying these and that, in fact, LULAC letters advised that they were not in good standing because Zazueta was not, in fact, a member in good standing when he sponsored these people? MR. FORD: Objection. Do you make an error --

MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT: MR. FORD: THE COURT: aware. BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q.

What's the objection? No foundation, to start with. He can testify whether he's

Were you aware that Zazueta, in fact, later was
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discovered not to be a member in good standing in spite of -THE COURT: I'll sustain as to that. The

original question was was he aware of the letter. BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. Were you aware of the letter from LULAC that said

he was not a member in good standing? A. Q. No. Were you also aware, then, that LULAC had to

overturn Lupe Mireles's error because it was discovered that Zazueta was not a member in good standing because he hadn't paid dues? A. Were you aware of that?

Not that I remember. MR. FORD: THE COURT: Object. Argumentative.

Overruled.

BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. Sir, when you make an error, do you simply ignore

the error, or do you try to correct it? MR. FORD: THE COURT: Objection. Sustained. Okay. Relevancy.

MR. GUAJARDO: BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q.

Well, you just said that you didn't know whether But if it was an error, it is

an error was made or not.

not fair to the other delegates that are properly
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credentialed to allow people that are not allowed under the constitution to be -- what about their civil rights? MR. FORD: opinion. THE COURT: Sustained. He -- he's already Objection. Calls for a legal

testified that he -- he's not aware of any of this. MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT: Okay.

So I don't think there's any

foundation for the questions. MR. GUAJARDO: BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. And Luis Vera only reserved and made reservations He didn't say that he was going to pay All right.

for these vans. for them, did he? A. Q. A. Q.

From what he discussed with my grandmother. So you don't know one way or the other? I was -Because your grandmother would be the one to

know, correct? A. Q. I was just the basic secretary in the middle. Okay. So you don't know what, if any, agreement You

was made between Mr. Vera and Cora Esquivel, correct? don't know what was said between Mr. Vera and Cora

because, like you said, you were just in the middle; you were getting information secondhand, correct?
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A. with him. Q.

There was probably one phone call I did speak

Okay.

But my understanding is, based on the

evidence, the e-mails, it just says, you know, these are vans -- or these are rooms that are going to be assigned, and then there's vans that were reserved. There's nothing

in any of the e-mails from Mr. Vera that says that he's going to pay for it or that LULAC is going to pay for it, correct? Sir, do you have any written documents from Mr. Vera saying he's going to pay for this? A. Q. A. Q. No written document. There isn't anything, is there? Not that I'm aware of? There isn't any, right? MR. FORD: THE COURT: Asked and answered. Sustained. Okay. We'd pass the witness, Objection. I can't hear.

MR. GUAJARDO: Your Honor. MR. FORD: 4:30; I promise.

Okay.

I'll get us out of here by

REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. FORD: Q. Mr. Cordero, you had one phone call with
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Mr. Vera? A. Q. call? A. It was about the reservations in regards to, you And you Yes. And what was the general topic of that phone

know, what e-mail he was going to send it to.

know, my grandmother, she couldn't -- she's not familiar with speaking about the e-mails, like, how to save and -Q. A. Right. So --

So, you know, I was the one that was telling him

to send it to this e-mail, you know, so I could give her the information so she'll have it with her to make sure obviously the vans were there. Q. So did Mr. Vera give you information regarding

the vans or payment on the vans to give to your grandmother on the phone call? A. That would be something that she discussed with

him, from what I recall. MR. FORD: THE COURT: him? MR. GUAJARDO: No further questions. I'm assuming you're done with

RECROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. GUAJARDO:
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Q.

The only thing is:

It is, then, your testimony

that you did not have any direct communication from Mr. Vera to you saying he was going to pay it, correct? A. Q. This is the -If anything, it may have been with your

grandmother because -A. The communicator in between. MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT: guy for your grandmother? THE WITNESS: That's what involved me. was -THE COURT: THE WITNESS: You do e-mail and she doesn't? Yeah. I was with her side by Basically, yeah, or secretary. And just making sure that she That's --

Nothing further.

In other words, you're the tech

side throughout the whole thing, so. THE COURT: May this witness be excused, or

do you intend to recall him? MR. FORD: our purposes. MR. GUAJARDO: witness. THE COURT: Mr. Cordero, you may step down. We'll have to reserve this The witness may be excused for

You may be recalled at a later date. Let's talk dates for a second day and how
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much time we need. MR. FORD: THE COURT: MR. FORD: one more witness. THE COURT: Okay. How long do you think Excuse me. Go ahead. I would advise the Court I have I --

that witness is going to take, just out of curiosity? MR. FORD: THE COURT: Probably about an hour. That's what I figured. That

means more with Mr. Guajardo -- and I just know, with cross, it's going to take more than an hour. That's not

intended to mean anything other than it takes more time. How far out do you think we need to go? another full day or a half day? MR. GUAJARDO: I think we're going to need And do we need

another full day, Your Honor, because we haven't presented our case and they've already had a full day. THE COURT: 12th or 13th available. I could -- I've got February If we start on the 13th, we 11th or

wouldn't start -- well, the 13th is not good. 12th. MR. FORD:

11th or 12th, Your Honor? Could you tell us what day of

MR. ESCOBAR: the week it is? THE COURT:

The 11th is a Tuesday; the 12th

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is Wednesday. MR. FORD: of those days. Plaintiffs are good with either

We'd prefer the 11th, Your Honor. MR. GUAJARDO: We'd rather have Wednesday,

Your Honor.

If we're going to have the same amount of

time available as the other side, that would be the allocation of time we're looking for. THE COURT: Roughly the same. I've been

kind of keeping track of time, although not real well today. I'll do better the next time. I thought we'd get

done easy in one day. MR. FORD: of remand. Okay. Your Honor, I have to kind

11th or the 13th would be better for us. THE COURT: Well, if we do the 13th, we're The 12th, I can give you

not going to get a full day in.

a full day and start at 9 o'clock. MR. GUAJARDO: rather do that. MR. FORD: with that, too. THE COURT: 9 o'clock. We'll adjourn until the 12th at All right. Plaintiffs will go We'll go with the 12th we'd

Anything further? MR. GUAJARDO: MR. FORD: THE COURT: No.

No, Your Honor. Thank you, Counsel.

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(The hearing concluded at 4:33 p.m.) * * *

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I, AMY E. WEAVER, do hereby certify that the 271 pages contained herein constitute a full, accurate transcript, from electronic recording, of the proceedings had in the foregoing matter, all done to the best of my skill and ability. SIGNED and dated this 28th day of January, 2014.

/s/ Amy E. Weaver TruAudio Transcription Certified Reporter RPR # 50462

Exhibit B

IN THE SUPERIOR COURT OF THE STATE OF ARIZONA IN AND FOR THE COUNTY OF MARICOPA ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) )

JOSE ROBERTO SOTO, et al., Plaintiffs, vs. LEAGUE OF UNITED LATIN AMERICAN CITIZENS ARIZONA CHAPTER, et al., Defendants.

CV 2013-008731

BEFORE THE HONORABLE MICHAEL J. HERROD SUPERIOR COURT JUDGE EVIDENTIARY HEARING DAY 2 (Transcribed from Audio Recording) Phoenix, Arizona February 12, 2014

TruAudio Transcribers, LLC 40 North Central Avenue #1400 Phoenix, Arizona 85004 480.227.4077 www.TAtrans.com

Prepared by: Debra Riggs Torres Arizona CR No. 50647

EVIDENTIARY HEARING - February 12, 2014

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INDEX OF EXAMINATIONS JOSE ROBERTO SOTO Direct Examination (cont.) By Mr. Ford Cross-Examination by Mr. Guajardo MANUEL ESCOBAR Direct Examination by Mr. Ford Cross-Examination by Mr. Guajardo Redirect Examination by Mr. Ford PAUL A. MARTINEZ Direct Examination by Mr. Ford Cross-Examination by Mr. Guajardo Redirect Examination by Mr. Ford GUADALUPE MORALES Direct Examination by Mr. Guajardo Cross-Examination by Mr. Garcia Redirect Examination by Mr. Guajardo Further Cross-Examination by Mr. Garcia Further Redirect Examination by Mr. Guajardo CAROLINA MUÑOZ Direct Examination by Mr. Guajardo Cross-Examination by Mr. Garcia Redirect Examination by Mr. Guajardo Further Redirect Examination by Mr. Guajardo Further Cross-Examination by Mr. Garcia ROGER C. ROCHA, JR. Direct Examination by Mr. Guajardo Cross-Examination by Mr. Garcia Further Cross-Examination by Mr. Garcia Redirect Examination by Mr. Guajardo Further Cross-Examination by Mr. Garcia BRENDA ESTRADA Direct Examination by Mr. Guajardo Cross-Examination by Mr. Garcia Further Cross-Examination by Mr. Garcia Redirect Examination by Mr. Guajardo Further Cross-Examination by Mr. Garcia PAGE 10 41 42 77 82 92 118 129 135 145 156 159 162 165 172 178 182 184 188 201 208 210 212 214 218 223 224 225

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EVIDENTIARY HEARING - February 12, 2014

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INDEX OF EXAMINATIONS (cont.) MARI ALVARADO Direct Examination by Mr. Guajardo Cross-Examination by Mr. Garcia Redirect Examination by Mr. Guajardo Further Cross-Examination by Mr. Garcia YOLANDA RODRIGUEZ-ESCOBAR Direct Examination by Mr. Guajardo Cross-Examination by Mr. Garcia DAVID HERNANDEZ Direct Examination by Mr. Guajardo Cross-Examination by Mr. Ford Redirect Examination by Mr. Guajardo

227 237 251 253 257 264 273 287 294

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EVIDENTIARY HEARING - February 12, 2014

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 For Plaintiffs:

A P P E A R A N C E S

Christopher B. Ford, Esq. Domingo Garcia, Esq. ( Pro hac vice ) For Defendants: T. Anthony Guajardo, Esq.

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P R O C E E D I N G S Phoenix, Arizona February 12, 2014 9:18 a.m.

THE COURT:

Please be seated.

We're on the

record in CV 2013-008731, Soto, Salazar, and Minranda vs. LULAC and others. Could I have appearances, please. Chris Ford for the plaintiffs. Tony Guajardo, Your Honor,

MR. FORD:

MR. GUAJARDO:

for the defendants (indiscernible) ready. MR. GARCIA: Your Honor, also, my name's

Domingo Garcia, and I filed an application with the Arizona State Bar to admit me on as -- on an ad hoc pro vice basis as counsel in this court -- in this case. And

I would submit at this time that it's been approved by the Arizona State Bar and I'd ask the Court -THE COURT: MR. FORD: move the Court orally. THE COURT: It's got to be in writing. If Have you filed a motion for me? I have not. Can I -- I'd like to

you want to submit a written motion, I'll consider it. But I can't do an oral one. MR. FORD: THE COURT: Sure. Okay.

Because it's required -- it's

required to be a written motion with all this attached, so
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we have it. MR. FORD: I can write it up right now, if

that's okay with the Court? THE COURT: MR. FORD: THE COURT: Sure. Okay. Thank you.

I also have a -- filed

yesterday, plaintiffs' request to submit revised witness list and supplemental exhibits. Mr. Guajardo, do you want to be heard on that? Have you seen that? MR. GUAJARDO: Your Honor, to the exhibits. We don't have any objections, I guess the witnesses, I

don't know -- I'm not sure of the relevancy on -THE COURT: I'm not sure they're any

different from any of the witnesses we've pretty much already seen. MR. GUAJARDO: basically everybody. We've heard -- we've heard

It's kind of cumulative. I can hear those objections when

THE COURT: the time comes.

I have something attached to this from another case. So what -- what's -- what's our schedule today, Mr. Ford? MR. FORD: We have -- I'd like to take the

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testimony of several witnesses. THE COURT: How long are you going to take,

because Mr. Guajardo's got to have -- get his witnesses in. MR. FORD: THE COURT: Mr. Guajardo? MR. GUAJARDO: up the entire day after that. THE COURT: finish in that time? MR. GUAJARDO: Honor. THE COURT: Okay. I think maybe if -- if we I'm going to do my best, Your Okay. Do you think you can Your Honor, I'm going to use An hour to an hour and a half. And how much do you have,

MR. GUAJARDO:

stick to the point and not deviate from the relevant points, I think we'll be okay. THE COURT: begin? The Court's received a handwritten motion to allow Domingo Garcia to appear pro hac vice . It appears Mr. Ford, are you prepared to

that the appropriate paperwork has been filed with the State Bar and (indiscernible) will be approved. Mr. Guajardo, any -MR. GUAJARDO: No objections, Your Honor.

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 of it. hac vice .

THE COURT:

Okay. I just want to know who's

MR. GUAJARDO:

going to be the -- I guess Mr. Ford will be lead counsel. THE COURT: We'll find out in just a second.

Mr. Garcia -- Domingo Garcia is admitted pro I'm just going to sign the bottom of the motion

as an order. Mr. Ford, who's your first witness? MR. FORD: I just ask the Court that at some

point we receive a written order so that I can reply to the State Bar's request that -THE COURT: MR. FORD: that written order. THE COURT: Okay. I just signed the bottom So you can what? Oh, a written order, or a copy of

MR. FORD: THE COURT: MR. FORD:

That suffices? Okay. Okay. Thank you, Your Honor.

Plaintiffs call -- we'd like to recall briefly Roberto Soto to the stand. THE COURT: Mr. Soto. And the rule's still

in effect, so any witnesses that are going to testify need to leave the courtroom. Mr. Soto, please come forward.
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EVIDENTIARY HEARING - February 12, 2014

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Cruz. Yeah.

MR. GARCIA:

Judge, we would ask that the I think we have

rule be invoked as to both parties. witnesses on both sides that are in. THE COURT: Oh, yeah.

It's both parties.

MR. ESCOBAR:

We know that, Judge.

There's

no witnesses in the courtroom. MR. GUAJARDO: there -- there is, Brenda. MR. FORD: Oh, wait a minute, I think (Indiscernible).

Well, there's no (indiscernible). Mine's a party. Parties can stay. Terri

MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT: I don't know --

Yeah.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: MR. GUAJARDO: Huh?

She's outside.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: MR. GUAJARDO: not witnesses; right? (indiscernible).

She's outside. Outside. You all are

She's outside.

So, Brenda, you're the only one

I don't want to (indiscernible) parties.

(Indiscernible) party, (indiscernible). THE COURT: Just show (indiscernible). (Indiscernible). You're

MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT: still under oath.

You can take the stand.

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. FORD: Q. No. 25. A. please.

MR. GUAJARDO:

Just wait outside, Brenda,

MR. FORD: THE COURT:

Okay.

Uh --

And, just for the record, You may proceed.

Mr. Soto's still under oath. MR. FORD:

Thank you, Your Honor.

JOSE ROBERTO SOTO, a witness herein, having been previously sworn to speak the truth and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION (cont.)

Dr. Soto, we're going to go right to Exhibit

I don't have it with me. THE COURT: MR. FORD: Exhibits are over here. With the Court's permission. 25. Try

to keep them in order. BY MR. FORD: Q.

Dr. Soto, the first two pages of the exhibit,

actually, are a -- a list. MR. FORD: And, Your Honor, my office made

that list, and so I would have to authenticate it,
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following the pages three and subsequent to that are -are the rest of the exhibit that Dr. Soto will testify to. BY MR. FORD: Q. So, Dr. Soto, can you explain what these -- what

these are. A. These are the -- the money orders from the LULAC

councils that were paid for the dues, both state and national. Q. Okay. And is -MR. GUAJARDO: Objection on foundation,

Your Honor, as to his knowledge. THE COURT: BY MR. FORD: Q. Okay. So how -- how did you -- how did you Sustained.

come -- how did these come into your possession, these receipts? A. What -- what is the background of this, please? The background is, is that after a perceived -- a

perceived collusion or -- or conspiracy to avoid the Phoenix and San Luis LULAC councils to vote in Tucson, in the -- in the Arizona state convention -MR. GUAJARDO: Your Honor. THE COURT: his opinion. MR. GUAJARDO: All right. Overruled. He's just stating Objection, hearsay,

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. FORD: Q. up. BY MR. FORD: Q.

THE WITNESS:

The folks -- the LULAC

councils that felt affected by that, they came together and organized, as well, and they put together their paperwork and -- and this is the receipts. MR. GUAJARDO: Objection, hearsay as to There's no --

the "these are the receipts," Your Honor.

there's no connection to any of these individuals. THE COURT: I'll allow Mr. Ford to follow

Of your personal knowledge, are these receipts --

are these receipts used -- from the -- from applications to -- to become members or to charter councils with LULAC? A. They are. I personally spoke to the -Objection, Your Honor. He's

MR. GUAJARDO:

not shown how he has personal knowledge. THE COURT: Yeah. He needs to -- you need

to establish personal knowledge on how he knows all this. THE WITNESS: Am I allowed to proceed?

So tell the Court how you have personal knowledge

of these receipts. A. I -- I've spoken to the LULAC presidents and

their members of the councils -MR. GUAJARDO: Objection. Hearsay.

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. FORD: Q. A. are them.

THE WITNESS: MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT:

-- that I have in my hand. What they spoke. The fact that he

Overruled.

spoke to them is not -- is not hearsay. THE WITNESS: Yes. And they -- and these I mean, I have

They've testified to this.

personal knowledge. files with them.

They -- they basically had those

MR. GUAJARDO:

Objection as to what he was

told as to these files, Your Honor, by these individuals. THE COURT: Did -Sustained.

Did you personally get copies of these receipts? Yes, yes, by the LULAC council members. Their

signature here. Q. receipts? A. They -- they signed and they had their charters This is it. Where did you get these -- the copies for the

and they gave me copies of the receipts. Q. A. Q. A. Q.

So each -- each council person -- each person -Yes. -- is listed on these receipts? Yes. And they're -These were --

Who are these people?

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EVIDENTIARY HEARING - February 12, 2014

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A.

So, if I may -MR. GUAJARDO: Objection. Objection. Still

hearsay as to what he was told by these people, unless he produces the -- the people that -- who are -- how he established personal knowledge, it's still hearsay as to the receipts. THE COURT: Proceed. MR. FORD: Thank you. These folks -- I must say a These Overruled.

THE WITNESS:

little bit about the background about these folks.

folks, they are -- they -- they are a lot -- the majority of them are organizers and activists here in Maricopa County and San Luis, and -- and that's why they were interested in LULAC, because they -- they -- they want to advocate for Latino civil rights, and -- and I've been working with them for close to a year now. less eight months. Well, more or

And -- and that's more or less how I

got to know them, and that's more or less how the -- they were involved in LULAC and -- and they -- that's how they -- they got organized -MR. GUAJARDO: THE WITNESS: LULAC national charters. MR. GUAJARDO: -- it's nonresponsive to the Your -- Your Honor --- in order to apply for the

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question. THE COURT: Sustained. Nonresponsive.

MR. GUAJARDO: MR. FORD: BY MR. FORD: Q. A.

Nonresponsive.

Okay.

What do these receipts represent? What they represent is them applying and

successfully doing so, to be chartered, both state and national for LULAC. MR. GUAJARDO: Objection, Your Honor, as to

what these -- as to what he thinks sustains applying for a charter. They may be dues, but they -- they may or may That's a question of law. Sustained. That was --

not be chartered.

THE COURT:

MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT:

Dr. Soto, the issue we're trying

to get to -- I'm trying to cut through this -- is I need to know how you received these -- not what they told you, but how you received them and what these are for. THE WITNESS: THE COURT: Okay. And not -- not what they were

trying to do, but what these were for. THE WITNESS: Okay. The LULAC council

presidents and their members, they -- they gave this to me. They basically -- they are the ones that applied for
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the -- to be chartered, both state and national, and they have the files, very diligently, and that's how I got into possession of them. What they represent is their -- their attempt to be chartered, both state and national, and what they represent is the fact that -- that they spent this -this resources to be chartered. MR. GUAJARDO: Objection, Your Honor, as to

whether or not these are for the purpose of chartering. He does not have the ultimate -- that is the ultimate question of law before the court. THE COURT: Sustained.

Mr. Ford, please follow up. BY MR. FORD: Q. What is the total amount of LULAC state and

national dues paid? MR. GUAJARDO: amount -THE WITNESS: MR. GUAJARDO: list that they compiled. It's --- Your Honor. This is a Objection as to the total

I'm not sure that is, in fact,

the best -- the best proof would be the LULAC business record, which we are -- we're going to introduce. I'm not

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Mr. Ford. Mr. Ford. I have --

THE COURT:

Mr. Ford, are you just trying to

prove that they all paid their dues? MR. FORD: I'm -- we're trying to establish

that these represent evidence of the fact that these -different councils paid money to be chartered. They paid

money to be chartered at the state and the district and the national level. Each -- each of these pages is --

represents a name and the name of the person is -- is -is associated with the council. My office -- the list, Your Honor, it was compiled by my office. My office compared the names of

these people on these different receipts to Exhibit 8, which I believe was admitted into evidence last time around, which is the Arizona -THE COURT: Well, here -- here's the problem

MR. FORD: THE COURT:

-- LULAC member list. Here's the problem I have,

MR. FORD: THE COURT:

Excuse me? Here's the problem I have,

I can tie the $55 money orders to the person I can

whose name is on them, even if I can't read them. tell it's a person.

But the $306 money orders, every one I

of them is purchased by Citizens For a Better Arizona.
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can't tie those to any LULAC council, any person that has anything to do with the LULAC council, and I can't tie it to Lul- -- being paid to LULAC. anything to me? MR. FORD: THE COURT: Dr. Soto -And Dr. Soto can't testify that So how does it prove

that's where these went because he doesn't have personal knowledge. BY MR. FORD: Q. Dr. Soto, did you have anything to do with the

payment by these money orders by citizens of -- better -for better Arizona on behalf of these individuals? A. As -- as a result of volunteering with Citizens

For a Better Arizona, the volun- -MR. GUAJARDO: on a narrative again. THE COURT: Sustained. Not responsive. He's going

You need to answer the question he asks. THE WITNESS: Okay. These -- these are

volunteers for Citizens For a Better Arizona -MR. GUAJARDO: THE WITNESS: Nonresponsive. And they received a grant from

Citizens For a Better Arizona -MR. GUAJARDO: personal knowledge -480.227.4077 www.TAtrans.com TRUAUDIO TRANSCRIBERS, LLC

He was asked whether he had

EVIDENTIARY HEARING - February 12, 2014

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 orders? BY MR. FORD: Q. A. Your Honor. grant --

THE WITNESS:

-- for a civic engagement

MR. GUAJARDO:

-- of the receipts,

THE WITNESS: MR. GUAJARDO:

And that's how -Nonresponsive.

Do you have personal knowledge yourself? I have personal knowledge of that. Not only

that, but each of these receipts, the $306 receipts for the national dues, each of them are associated with the file of the application of each of the councils, which I don't see right now in here, but I have in my possession. MR. GUAJARDO: Again, it's hearsay,

Your Honor, as to what Citizens For a Better Arizona did and how -- how that's connected. THE COURT: It's still unclear.

Dr. Soto, what's your

involvement with Citizens For a Better Arizona? THE WITNESS: At the time of the councils, I

was a volunteer, but now I'm the field director. THE COURT: Did you purchase these money

THE WITNESS:

Not personally, but I

volunteered for CBA and I received a grant. MR. GUAJARDO: Same objection, Your Honor.

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No, does not have personal knowledge of any -THE COURT: Dr. Soto? THE WITNESS: MR. GUAJARDO: Your Honor. THE COURT: Sustained. I believe Randy Parraz did. We object to hearsay, Who purchased the money orders,

Proceed, Mr. Ford. BY MR. FORD: Q. What is your understanding of what the expenses

were paid by these -- these for these charters -MR. GUAJARDO: Again, objection, Your Honor.

That's the ultimate question for the Court is the membership. THE COURT: BY MR. FORD: Q. Let's turn -- turn to Exhibit 26, please. It's Sustained.

just a one-page exhibit. A. Q. Got it. Can you identify that paper and how you came into

possession of it? A. Yes. This paper is the -- the national LULAC

convention fee paid by LULAC -- LULAC Council 1137, president Raquel [phonetic] Guerrero. MR. GUAJARDO: Objection, hearsay,

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Your Honor. THE COURT: BY MR. FORD: Q. A. I'm sorry. Each of the -- so what the -THE COURT: MR. FORD: THE COURT: MR. FORD: I overruled the objection. You overruled the objection. Yes, I overruled it. Okay. So you can -Overruled. Proceed.

THE WITNESS: BY MR. FORD: Q. Oh, all right.

Okay.

So -- so this represents a

registration for the national convention -A. Q. Yes. -- is what you're saying? MR. GUAJARDO: Your Honor, objection as to

his knowledge of those facts, because, again, he's -THE COURT: Sustained.

I think all he can testify to is it's a receipt. MR. GUAJARDO: BY MR. FORD: Q. A. And what is this receipt for? This is the receipt -- the receipt that the Okay.

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Your Honor. BY MR. FORD: Q.

MR. GUAJARDO: receipt is for, Your Honor. itself. THE COURT:

Objection as to what the The document speaks for

Sustained.

Will you read the monetary amount at the bottom

of the receipt? A. Q. $20. And did you -- did you register yourself -- did

you yourself register for the national convention? A. Q. form? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. The exact same form. And how much did you pay? $20. Okay. Yes. Okay. Do you have personal knowledge as to So your registration was $20? I did. And did you fill out a form that looks like this

whether other people paid the same amount -MR. GUAJARDO: Object -- objection,

THE WITNESS: MR. GUAJARDO: knowledge of other people.

Yes. As to how he gained personal He's trying to bring in the

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same -- same information that was already objected to, basically. THE COURT: your question, Mr. Ford. BY MR. FORD: Q. Did you personally get copies of receipts for Sustained. You need to rephrase

dues paid before each council of the national convention? MR. GUAJARDO: Your Honor, objection as

to -- he's not -- there's no foundation to show he's the custodian of these records or any other business record that he is going to testify to. I believe that just

saying I have copies or whatever, that still doesn't rise to the level of personal knowledge. THE COURT: registrations were paid. copies of a receipt. MR. FORD: I can -- I can back up and It's not proof that -- that the He can testify whether he has

attempt to lay some foundation. BY MR. FORD: Q. You're -- Dr. Soto, you said you were a

volunteer -- at this time, you're a volunteer with Citizens For a Better Arizona. A. Q. Yes. As volunteer, did your duties include dealing in

some way with the paperwork that -- involved with the
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LULAC convention that the CBA had -- CBA being shorthand for the organization. A. Yes. To help coordinate and -- coordinate their

paperwork and also to coordinate them at the national convention in Las Vegas, Nevada. Q. A. Q. Okay. Yes. And there was some testimony last time as to that

latter aspect of things. A. Q. Absolutely. But in terms of coordinating the paperwork, what

kind of paperwork did you coordinate as volunteer for Citizens For a Better Arizona in regards to the LULAC convention in Las Vegas? A. To make sure that the 147 LULAC -- LULACers that

came from Phoenix and from San Luis had all their paperwork necessary to be -- to be registered and given delegate credentials to vote in the national convention. And each of the 147 folks had a receipt like this stating that they paid their $20 registration fee. MR. GUAJARDO: Your Honor, I'm going to

object to the line of questioning because ultimately that -- this goes to whether or not they would have been credentialed in order to -- as he's stating, to be -- he says to vote and participate as delegates.
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registration does not constitute proper credentialing, Your Honor. That's another issue. And whether they can

vote is another issue, so -THE COURT: Sustained as to that.

But overruled as to whether they actually appeared, turned in the forms, and paid. trying to say. MR. FORD: That's what I'm establishing. We That's what he's

already have lots of testimony as to what happened at the -- at the convention that -- that deals with what you just mentioned, Mr. Guajardo, so in any case ... BY MR. FORD: Q. So -- okay. So you handled on behalf of Citizens And was part of your

For a Better Arizona these receipts.

duty, then, to coordinate these -- these -- the paperwork, essentially, for the convention -A. Q. A. Yes. -- to clarify. But checking the back list of folks -- of items

they needed to -- to be able to -- from our point of view, to be credentialed -MR. GUAJARDO: responsive. question. THE COURT: Sustained. Objection. That's not

Nonresponsive to -- didn't answer the

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. FORD: Q. having is.

Dr. Soto, I'm not trying to be difficult. You need to answer the question that's asked. Not give a

narrative answer that's answering something else. THE WITNESS: THE COURT: Absolutely. That's what the problem we're

THE WITNESS: MR. FORD:

All right.

Thank you, Your Honor.

In any case, if you can just briefly describe

your -- your role in that regard, to the extent you haven't already. A. When -- to help them coordinate the paperwork to

register and get credentialed -Q. Okay. And -- and what paperwork did you -- did

you handle? A.

What types of papers? Their receipts for national and

Their charters.

state dues.

And their receipts for registration and all

that stuff -- everything that we thought was necessary for credential and registration. Q. Did you personally get copies of all the dues

paid for each of the councils chartered for the national convention? A. Yeah. MR. GUAJARDO: Objection, Your Honor, as to

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whether they were chartered -MR. FORD: They were sought to be chartered. Yes. Whether or not they were

THE WITNESS: MR. GUAJARDO:

ultimately chartered, Your Honor. THE COURT: ahead. What was your answer? THE WITNESS: MR. FORD: Yes. He changed the question. Go

So ... What was the question,

MR. ESCOBAR: Your Honor? MR. GUAJARDO: Your Honor. Again. THE COURT:

I'm not sure of the question,

To attempt to charter them.

Did

he received the paperwork, copies of paperwork to attempt to charter them. THE WITNESS: BY MR. FORD: Q. So going back to Exhibit 25, did you -- did you Yes.

handle those documents that are in the exhibit, the receipts? A. Yes. MR. GUAJARDO: on 25. Same objection, Your Honor,

That's the same document that was devised by
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counsel's office. MR. FORD: whether -THE COURT: What was the question again? 25 was the one that -Again, we're not going to

MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT: asked again. MR. FORD:

No, what was the question you

Did you handle -- the question

was, did you handle the documents -THE WITNESS: MR. FORD: Yes.

-- that are reflected in 25? Yes. Objection as to, again --

THE WITNESS: MR. GUAJARDO: MR. FORD: BY MR. FORD: Q. A.

And --

Are those true and correct copies? Yes, they are. THE COURT: I need a clarification what you

mean by, did he handle the documents. MR. GUAJARDO: Look -- look, I'm not sure

how there's a connection, Your Honor, between Exhibit 25 and the ultimate question that he's testifying on the amount of monies allegedly paid. Again, these were paid by Citizens For a Better Arizona. He says he has personal knowledge, but
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then he says I only got copies. custodian of records.

Again, he's not the

We don't -- we don't know that

there is, in fact, any connection between the list prepared by counsel's office and any of these money orders, Your Honor. THE COURT: I haven't gotten that far yet.

I'm still trying to figure out -THE WITNESS: THE COURT: MR. FORD: THE COURT: I'm -- I'm -I'm trying to figure out -Excuse me. I'm trying to get to what

Dr. Soto's role was with these checks and money orders. And that's not what I'm getting. What his -- did he just

receive copies, or did he actually deliver the paperwork at the national convention? to. That's what you need to get That doesn't prove

I don't care if he had copies.

anything, other than they attempted to do something. BY MR. FORD: Q. Did you submit these copies to -MR. GUAJARDO: Objection, Your Honor.

Again, the copies are not evidence. MR. FORD: Excuse me. If they were, in fact,

MR. GUAJARDO: submitted. MR. FORD:

These are --

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 convention. BY MR. FORD: Q. Your Honor.

MR. GUAJARDO:

Anybody can make a copy,

MR. FORD:

These are true and correct

copies, as he's just given testimony as to these documents. BY MR. FORD: Q. The question is, did you submit these documents,

the originals, to LULAC for the purpose of attempting to charter these councils? A. Yes. MR. GUAJARDO: Your Honor, again, I'm not

sure if he's saying that he personally hand-delivered these to LULAC because -THE COURT: my next question. MR. GUAJARDO: I'm not sure how he would be That's -- that was going to be

able to do that, Your Honor, because they don't accept -they don't accept -MR. FORD: Did you personally --- dues at the national

MR. GUAJARDO:

You have to be paid up 30 days in advance.

Did you personally deliver them, mail them, how

did you -THE COURT: Why don't you ask him what he

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did. BY MR. FORD: Q. A. What did you do with? So as a volunteer for CBA, we coordinated with

the LULAC -- with the -- with the potential LULACers at our office to help them coordinate the paperwork and help them set a system and organizing the paperwork necessary to send it -- to handle the paperwork. Once everything

was sent, once everybody was coordinated and all the paperwork was handled, we send it off to the national. Q. A. Q. So did you have a role -LULAC. -- in sending the documents, of which these are

true and correct copies -A. Q. A. Q. Yes. -- to LULAC? Yes. Okay. MR. GUAJARDO: sure how he sent them. Your Honor, I'm still not

I'm not -- whether he personally

sent them or delegated or -- I'm not sure I'm getting any personal knowledge as to -- because he says we sent them, I'm not sure how that really answers the question as to how he -BY MR. FORD:
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Q. A.

What was your role in that process? My role, as a volunteer, I did not send them But my role was to -- when the

personally to national. LULAC --

MR. GUAJARDO: that basis, if he did not -THE COURT: rest of this testimony. THE WITNESS:

Objection, Your Honor, on

Overruled.

I want to hear the

When the -- when the LULAC

council presidents and the folks who are trying to charter their -- their -- their group of people as -- as LULAC councils, we came together in our office and there was a check in the box list of items that they needed in order to be chartered. And I helped them handle that component, Each And I

in terms of helping -- everything had their folders. of the LULAC council presidents had their folders. helped them -- I helped them look and make sure that everybody had their -- the necessary items that they

needed to get chartered and that was being coordinated and I was helping him to handle that as a volunteer with CBA. BY MR. FORD: Q. And what happened once the paperwork was -- you

sort of ascertained that the paperwork was correct and so forth -A. Uh-huh.
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Q.

-- included in that paperwork were these -- was

it -- was -- were these -- were money orders included in that paperwork? A. Q. A. Yes. To be used for payment? Yes. MR. GUAJARDO: Your Honor, I'm going to

object because ultimately one of the check boxes, as he said, is that the sponsor, Miguel Zazueta has to be a member in good standing, and obviously that wasn't -THE COURT: objection. Well, that's not a proper

He can still lay his foundation that they did You can prove -- it's up to you to show

this process.

that Mr. Zazueta was not -- it's up to you to show the paperwork was insufficient. But he's -- all he's trying

to do is lay the foundation of how the paperwork got processed and sent, and I'm trying to let him do that. BY MR. FORD: Q. Okay. So it sounds like we have testimony that

you -- you -- you had the part in the process you mentioned. And -- and so you helped them get these papers Included in these papers

organized -- just to summarize.

were -- were money orders to -- for the purpose of payment. A. Yes.
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Q.

And what happened next?

Like what was the

process after that?

You did those things, and what -Did you mail them or did Did you observe

what happened after that?

another person in the office mail them?

someone in the office doing that, in the CBA office? A. Yes. It's very simple. The -- the potential

LULACers and their LULAC council presidents and everybody, they got their paperwork together. As a volunteer, I

helped them get the -- the check in the boxes. MR. GUAJARDO: THE WITNESS: Nonresponsive, Your Honor. Helping coordinate and it was

sent from the office, from the CBA office. BY MR. FORD: Q. A. Q. Did you -- did you observe -Yes. -- the documents essentially being processed for

mailing -A. Q. A. Yes. -- and mailed out to LULAC? Yes, yes. We helped them coordinate that. Who -- who did you observe doing

THE COURT: that? THE WITNESS: THE COURT: THE WITNESS:

Ricardo Gomez. And who is that? He's also a LULAC council

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president, I believe.

He's part of the class action. Were they all sent together, or

THE COURT:

did they get sent individually? THE WITNESS: together. BY MR. FORD: Q. So you -- excuse me. Okay. Just to review, I believe they were sent

each -- each council had the -- had a set of documents, as you just testified? A. Q. Yes. Did you take -- did these councils -- excuse me.

Did you take these documents to Las Vegas? A. Q. Yes. Did you yourself do that? You took the

collection of documents for the -- how many councils is it? A. Q. A. I'm -- 48 -- 40 -38? I believe it's 48 councils and 144 delegates. THE COURT: MR. FORD: THE COURT: Mr. Ford -Okay. Mr. Ford, I assuming you're

talking about copies of the documents? BY MR. FORD: Q. Are we -- are these -- did you take the originals
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or copies? A. I took both, both -- both a copy of the -MR. GUAJARDO: he mailed the originals. MR. FORD: I was going to get there. Kind of confusing. Your Honor, I thought he said

MR. GUAJARDO: BY MR. FORD: Q.

Were the originals mailed to LULAC?

Is that what

your testimony was a few moments ago? UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: took them, the originals. THE COURT: I need you to not all be talking It's great, if he

at the same time under your breath, because I can hear you. THE WITNESS: I apologize. I -- I was a

little bit confused about the question. The copies -- so what -- what I see in here, and the reason why I was a little bit confused, as I understand from the files that -- that are in my possession, the personal money order you see in here for $206, as I understand it, it's the -- the receipt of the personal money order. And I believe that to be a -- an So I think

original copy -- an original receipt of that.

that the money order has this component of the -- of the -- I'm not -- of the -- of the money order and the
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copy -- the original copy of the money order, as I understand it, so ... THE COURT: Let me just clarify it. You're

saying you took original copies of the receipts of the money orders. THE WITNESS: THE COURT: original. THE WITNESS: THE COURT: A receipt -The original money orders got All right. You had the receipt that was an

sent to LULAC as a package. THE WITNESS: The -- all of the original

materials that -- that -- for the charters were sent to national LULAC. THE COURT: THE WITNESS: Okay. And the copies of all that,

those are the files that I have. BY MR. FORD: Q. Okay. I think what the Court is saying is that

the -- if I'm catching this -- is that this -- this money order, this -- the copy we have here is a copy of a -- a receipt portion of a money order? A. Q. Uh-huh. The original -- the actual part that was, I

guess, negotiable, if that's the word, was sent with the
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package, that you sent to -- that your -- your -- you observed the person you just mentioned in your office send to LULAC; right? A. Q. A. Yes. Now, did -- did LULAC send anything back? To the LULAC council, to each of the councils,

they sent them their charter and they sent them -MR. GUAJARDO: Your Honor. THE COURT: BY MR. FORD: Q. Okay. Did you -- did you receive anything back Sustained. Objection, hearsay,

from LULAC as part of the effort you were part of? A. Q. A. Only for my council. Okay. And what did you receive back? We received the --

We received the charter.

yeah, we received the charter. Q. A. Q. A. Q. What was your council number? 1152. So you received a charter -Uh-huh. -- back. And -- and did you receive this charter

back from LULAC before -- before the Las Vegas convention? A. Q. Yes. And did you receive anything else back with your
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charter? A. Q. A. Q. A. No. For example, they send letters and things? Yes, yes -Did you --- they did. MR. GUAJARDO: Your Honor, we're going to

object, because Mr. Soto is not one of the class members that was deprived of voting or being credentialed at the national. His actually was a member in good standing and So he's -- I think it's

did get credentialed at national.

confusing to -- to say, in order to imply that somehow his charter and his being able to be credentialed is part of what happened to any alleged class members because he wasn't denied credentialing. He was a member in good

standing at the national convention. THE COURT: a charter back. He can testify that he received

What conclusions are drawn are up to me.

You may proceed. BY MR. FORD: Q. A. Q. All right. Uh-huh. Did your -- did this office where you were So back to these packets.

volunteering at CBA, did the office keep copies of those -- those packets that were sent to LULAC?
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A. Q.

Yes. Okay. And did you take those copies with you

personally to Las Vegas, to the national convention? A. Q. Yes. And did you submit each of those packets to LULAC

at the convention, to the LULAC -A. Q. A. Q. A. Yes. -- registrations or -- or -I attempted, but they were not -Were they accepted? No. MR. FORD: I'd move to admit Exhibit 25, for

the limited purpose to show that the dues were paid by the Arizona councils. MR. GUAJARDO: Your Honor, again, the list

compiled by counsel doesn't reflect a business record. And it is -- it is hearsay and does not correlate to the alleged money order that he says was sent in. that the best proof is the business record. I believe And we --

LULAC business record will be offered in our -- I know what he's trying to do, but it just -THE COURT: My view right now is Exhibit 25

may become admissible, but it's not yet. MR. GUAJARDO: MR. FORD: Okay, Your Honor.

Pass the witness.

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 speculation. MR. GUAJARDO: Okay. We don't have anything BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. You were, in fact, credentialed at the national CROSS-EXAMINATION

convention, did you not, sir? A. Q. Yes. And you took a delegate letter and that was part

of the credentialing process? A. Q. Yes. And you were aware that there was the legal

opinion by Manuel Escobar, the legal advisor, that, in essence, says that Miguel Zazueta was not a member in good standing when he sponsored these councils that you organized? A. I was made aware of that at the convention, by

the executive director. Q. Well, you were aware that Mr. Zazueta was sent a

letter advising him of that; correct? MR. FORD: Objection. Calls for

further of this witness, Your Honor. THE COURT: MR. FORD: THE COURT: Okay. Any redirect?

Nothing further. Okay. You may step down,

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Dr. Soto. Next witness? MR. FORD: THE COURT: (indiscernible). THE WITNESS: THE COURT: hear. THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. Yes, sir. (Indiscernible). Call Manuel -- Manuel Escobar. You may be sworn first,

We do it down here so we can

(The witness was sworn. ) THE COURT: THE WITNESS: Now you may take the stand. Thank you, Your Honor.

MANUEL ESCOBAR, a witness herein, having been first duly sworn to speak the truth and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. FORD: Q. A. Q. A. Q. State your name for the record. Manuel G. Escobar, Jr. Okay. And your city and state of residence?

San Antonio, Texas. And would you explain to the Court your
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involvement with LULAC. A. Q. A. Q. A. years. Q. Little bit more than three years. And in that position, do you have occasion to review the LULAC constitution and bylaws? A. Q. I do. Do you consider yourself to be -- to have I serve as the national legal advisor. Is that a national office? It is. Okay. How long have you served in that position? Little bit more than three

About three years.

knowledge of it, to understand it? A. Q. I believe I do. Is part of your -- is part of your work to

interpret the -- the -- some of the terms of -- or the terms of the constitution? A. It's one of our responsibilities under the

constitution. Q. A. Were you elected or appointed to this position? I was appointed and then confirmed by the -- by

the national board -- or I believe the executive committee, actually. Q. A. And who appointed you? Margaret Moran.
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Q.

Okay.

I'm going to ask that you turn to

Exhibit 15, which is the -- which is a copy of the LULAC constitution and bylaws that was admitted into evidence by stipulation. A. Q. Sure. It was downloaded from LULAC's website. Before we get to that, do you have to knowledge of LULAC's operations? A. Q. A. Q. Some. Do you know the annual budget of the group? I don't. I don't know it by heart. Do you --

Well, do you -- could you estimate it within 5,

10 percent? A. Q. page 1. pages. A. Q. No, sir. Okay. Under -- on paragraph 1 -- excuse me,

So you have to go past all those roman numeral Article II. Yes, sir. Philosophy, I'd like you to read that first

paragraph to the Court, please: A. "We believe in the democratic principle of

individual political and religious freedom, the right of equality of social and economic opportunity, and in the cooperative endeavor toward the development of an American society wherein the cultural resources, integrity, and
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dignity of every individual and group constitute basic assets to the American way of life." Q. And do you believe the conduct of LULAC in

Las Vegas was in keeping with that philosophy? A. Q. Yes, sir. Okay. I'll next direct your attention to page 5. Excuse me, sir. bottom -- page 2. Okay. The very last -A. Q. 3 or 2? Excuse me? I'm sorry. Page 3. My bad. Looks I'm sorry. Sorry, sir. My apologies. Page -- the

So we're at the bottom of page 3.

like I had the ... Actually, I jumped ahead of myself. to the bottom of page 2. Sorry, Mr. Escobar. Go back

We're going

to go to the bottom of page 2, and we're going to look at that Article III says Aims and Purposes. A. Q. Okay. And Number 5, I'd like you to read that in the

record, please. A. "To combat with every means at our command all

un-American tendencies and actions that deprive American citizens of their rights in educational institutions, in economic pursuits and in social, civic, and political activities."
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Q.

Okay.

And then to the bottom of page 3, you're

right there, the very last sentence, it starts "any councils" and that -- that and the subsequent sentence, please. A. "Any councils or persons found denying a valid

candidate for membership shall be impeached by the district executive board by a majority vote." Q. Okay. Thank you. And has -- have -- to your knowledge, has that ever happened? Has any person been found to deny a

valid candidate for membership, to your knowledge? A. Q. I don't think so. Okay. Okay. So we're going to just go to

page 5, which is -- includes sub parts under Section 1 regarding general members. And the bottom of page 4 it And then on page 5,

says "Rights and Privileges."

parenthetical 3, would you please read into the record? A. Yeah. I think you have to read it in connection

with the first -- or the last line on page 4. Q. Okay. I -- I agree with that and would ask you

to do that, please. A. Okay. "All general members in good standing

shall be entitled to propose, discuss, and vote on matters of interest to and for the welfare of the Council or League."
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Q.

Okay.

Thank you. I'm going to ask that we go to page 29 of

this -- of the -- of this exhibit.

And (d) -- so we're in

I believe Article VIII, Section 5, and then sub part (d) starting with "voting." A. Would you please?

"Voting and national election shall be by roll

call, a show of hands, or secret ballot, as the Rules Committee may recommend and the National Assembly may approve. Q. Okay. Now, we're just going to page 70 -- excuse Bottom of 69, Section 8. This is going to

me, 69, sorry.

be Bylaws, Article II, Section 8(a). that into the record. A.

Just ask you to read

[As read] Voting at all conventions shall be a

show of hands, roll call, or secret ballot, as provided for the National Assembly in the National Constitution under Article VIII, Section 5, subsection 4. Q. Thank you. Mr. Escobar, during the Las Vegas convention, there was a National Assembly, I believe, on the 22nd of June. A. Were you -- did you attend that? I don't remember the date, but I

I was there.

was there. Q. Okay. The National Assembly where voting for

national officers takes place.
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A. Q.

That's correct. Okay. Now, were these votes taken as provided

here by a show of hands, roll call, or secret ballot? A. Q. I believe they were. So how was the vote -- how was the vote for

national officers taken in Vegas? A. People were asked to show their hands and stand

up when they did it. Q. A. room. Show their hands and stand up? Yes, sir. So they can be seen. This is a big

There's probably 1500 people there, and it's real

hard to see somebody while they're sitting down and holding their hand up. that you can be seen. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. So your testimony is that they were asked to -To stand. -- to stand -To show their hands. -- and -- and raise their hands? To show their hands. And were these -- were these raised hands So you're asked to stand up so

individually counted? A. Q. A. I don't believe they were, no, sir. So how do you ascertain who won? There's counters, and the counters look -- look
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at the crowd, and they made a determination as to -- as to the vote. Q. A. Who made the final determination? The election judge and -- in coordination with

the counters. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Who is the election judge? Roger Rocha. Excuse me? Roger Rocha. Roger Rocha. Was there a -- do you recall whether there was a vote taken during that assembly to -- where the question was, whether to let the Arizona delegations -delegates vote? A. Q. There was a vote. And how was that vote taken? Was it taken as --

as described in the section I just asked you to read? A. It was taken, actually, as described in the -- in

the section and also in the rules of the convention that were -- that were adopted. Q. So it was a show of hands, a roll call, and

secret ballot -- or a secret ballot -A. Q. A. No, sir. -- it was one of those three? I think one of the exhibits that is in evidence
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are the rules of the convention. been admitted in evidence. Q. A. Q. That's not responsive. Yes.

I think it's already

I'm asking you --

-- whether the voting was taken -- the vote

taken -- that was taken place -- that took place, excuse me, was by show of hands, roll call, or secret ballot? A. Q. it? A. Q. A. Show of hands. So it was done by a show of hands. Same thing as -- as with -- as I already People were asked to stand up, so we could Yes, sir. Which -- it's disjunctive. It's "or." Which was

testified.

see -- the counters could see who was voting. Q. A. And was there a specific count taken? I don't believe it was -- it was the same as the

previous response I gave. Q. A. So they basically looked out and guessed? No. I think that they -- they looked at the

crowd, and -- and they determined that there hadn't been enough votes. that. Q. A. How did they make that determination exactly? I think the same way Dr. Soto did, when he
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testified.

They estimated.

They looked at the crowd and You'd have to ask them. I

that was their determination.

didn't count myself, so I would suggest you ask the counters and Mr. Rocha. Q. And did -- did -- did -- did you -- as part of

your duties, as legal advisor to LULAC, do you draft legal opinions, what you call legal opinions, from time to time? A. Q. On occasion. And did you happen to write -- draft a legal

opinion with regard to this -- the Arizona councils, whether or not they were to be voting in the Las Vegas convention? A. Q. A. I did. And what did you conclude? I concluded that when they were formed, the

councils had not been validly formed, and I did not believe that they were valid councils. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Did anyone request a legal opinion? Yes, sir. Who did? Mr. David Hernandez. David Hernandez. And what is the effect of the legal opinion? I mean, it's not -- you're not a court of law, are you? A. I am -- take my duties and responsibilities from
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the constitution -Q. A. Q. A. I didn't ask --- of LULAC. I didn't ask -I am a court of law in accordance with the LULAC The LULAC constitution says that I'm

constitution.

supposed to do that, so -Q. A. Q. And --- I carried out my duties. And can you point exactly where in the

constitution it says you're a court of law? A. It says -- if you look at the section that

describes legal advisor, it talks about what I'm supposed to do, and those are the one of the -- one of the things I'm supposed to do. THE COURT: THE WITNESS: BY MR. FORD: Q. A. I'm sorry, sir. Where was that, you referred to? Let Point me to where that is. It's page 43, Judge.

Page 40 -- oh, that's state legal advisor.

me look for national. It would be page 38, Your Honor. Subsection (g). Q. there. Hang on. Hang on a second. I am just about

Thank you for your patience.
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 sir. A. A. Q. A. Q. A.

Okay. Article.

Subsection (g)?

Legal advisor. Hold on a second. Nine? Section 2. I believe it's subsection (b). Maybe It's Article VIII, section.

I got that wrong. Q. I think we're looking at Article VIII, Section 9 Nine (g). Section 9 is noted at 30 --

(g) (2) -- or (g). page 33. page 27.

And that's under Article VIII, which is noted at At least the copy I have, legal advisor is on

page 38, under (g), sub (g)? A. Q. A. You're correct. Your question?

I had asked you if you're a court of law. I take -- take my duties and responsibilities

from -- that subsection 2, under Legal Advisor. Q. And would you please read that in the record,

[As read] To render and -- to interpret and

render an opinion on matters arising with regard to the LULAC Constitution and Bylaws, Resolutions and/or Policies when requested by any member, Council, or officer of the League. The National Assembly may by a two-thirds

majority, reverse an opinion of the Legal Advisor in those cases wherein it is believed that he -- that he/she has
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acted in a biased manner or contrary to the spirit of the provision in question. Q. And was a -- you gave testimony that there was a

vote taken regarding the Arizona -- whether the Arizona delegation should be seated? A. Q. There was. And was that vote in connection with a legal --

the legal opinion you -- you issued? A. I believe it was. It actually was in connection

with a motion that was made on the floor. Q. A. Q. But -To overturn my opinion. -- whatever procedural aspect of it, it was in

connection with this legal opinion -- was it in connection with this legal opinion? A. Q. I think so. What I'm getting at, sir, did it require a

two-thirds vote -A. Q. A. I believe it did, yes. -- to -- to reverse your legal opinion? Right. The LULAC constitution requires a

two-thirds vote. Q. A. Q. Okay. To reverse a -- an opinion of the legal advisor. And how is it, exactly, that it was determined
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that there was two -- there wasn't a two-thirds vote? A. Q. A. It was obvious. It was obvious. Clear to everybody there. That's not a --

Mr. Domingo Garcia even withdrew his candidacy

from office because he said he realized that the vote wasn't there and he -- he wasn't going to be able to get two-thirds of the vote. Q. That's not -- I'll move to strike as

nonresponsive. A. Well, that's how I interpreted it. THE COURT: BY MR. FORD: Q. You gave testimony that Mr. David Hernandez had Sustained.

requested this legal opinion regarding the Arizona councils? A. Q. Yes, sir. When he made that request, was he a member of one

of those councils? A. Q. I believe he was. He was a member of one of the councils that

ultimately was found to be -A. Q. A. No, he was. -- not in good standing? No. He was -- he was a member of LULAC. If you

read that, it says, any member, Council, or officer of the
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League. So he was a member of the League. believe he was actually an officer also. THE COURT: Can you be a member of the LULAC And I

without being a member of a council? THE WITNESS: honorary member. THE COURT: member. Other than -- just normal No, sir -- well, you can be an

Can you be a member -THE WITNESS: THE COURT: No, sir. -- without being a member of a

council? THE WITNESS: council. THE COURT: And was Mr. Hernandez, at the You have to be a member of a

time he requested the opinion, a member of the council in good standing? THE WITNESS: Your Honor. BY MR. FORD: Q. Okay. So are you familiar with a practice I believe he was, yes,

I don't have any information that he wasn't.

that -- regarding which there's been testimony given in this case called delegate transferring? A. Q. No. You're not familiar with that at all.
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You never

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heard about it. A. Q. Never heard of delegate transfer, no. So let me describe what it is. Maybe I'm using

an incorrect term.

There's been testimony in this case

that LULAC leaders asked people, even -- well, there's testimony they also pressured people to transfer alternates from one council to another council. ever heard of that practice before? MR. GUAJARDO: misstates the evidence. transferred. MR. FORD: THE COURT: Overruled. THE WITNESS: question. BY MR. FORD: Q. A. Q. There's been testimony in this court -Yes, sir. -- that members in -- in leadership positions, I'm sorry. Repeat your That's not quite -That's not what he asked. I'm going to object to Have you

In fact, no one said anybody was

like Mr. Morales, Mr. Hernandez, at the state level, and others, have -- were asking council leaders to transfer delegates -MR. GUAJARDO: I'm going to object to

hearsay on that, Your Honor -480.227.4077 www.TAtrans.com TRUAUDIO TRANSCRIBERS, LLC

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. FORD: Q.

MR. FORD: THE COURT: he's restating testimony. MR. FORD:

That's -Overruled. He's just trying --

I'm -- thank you.

And the -- so they transferred, for example -Just to make an

let's say your council has six members. example.

And you have three -- you have three delegates However many members. Let's say

and three alternates.

three -- your council has three delegates, three alternates. council. The three delegates are going to vote as your

And what was asked specifically, again,

according to testimony in this case -- given in this case, was that those alternates, the leader of that council, was asked to send those alternates to another council. I've referred to that as delegate transferring. And

Maybe

that's not a term you use, but just for the sake of -- for convenience, have you ever heard of that practice before? A. Q. A. Q. No, sir. You're not aware of it? No, sir. Were you ever in the Senate Room at the Caesars

Palace during the convention? A. Q. I was. And you're not aware of any attempts to engage in
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delegate transferring, as I've described it, if you'll allow that term? A. Q. No, sir, I'm not. Okay. Exhibit 8 has been admitted into evidence.

I'll direct your attention to Exhibit 8, please. A. Q. A. Q. Arizona. A. Okay. If you tell me so. I don't know what it Give me a second, please. Take your time. Yes, sir. Exhibit 8 is a 2013 LULAC member list for

is myself. Q. Well, it was admitted into evidence as such, to

my understanding of things. A. Q. before? A. I've seen lists similar to this. I don't Okay. The -- this list -- have you seen lists like this

think -- I don't know if I've seen this one. Q. Okay. When this list, I believe, was -- was

issued by -- by LULAC -- in fact, if I can back you up to Exhibit 7, which also has been admitted into evidence -A. Q. Excuse me. -- this list was sent by -- looks like John

Morales, according to the email.
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A.

So this is a LULAC list, is what I'm trying to make sure you understand. A. Q. A. Q. If you tell me so. Well, does LULAC issue lists like these? Yes. Okay. And those people named on the list, are The question is --

they in good standing? A. Q. I have no idea, sir. When LULAC generally issues a list like this,

generally speaking, is it of members in good standing or bad standing or kind of a combination of them or? A. Can be a combination. I'm not exactly sure what

this list is. Q. Okay. There's been testimony in this case too --

testimony that wasn't objected to -- that there were -I'll try to be brief -- there are two systems, essentially, for credentialing delegates at the Las Vegas convention. One system was in the Senate Room. The

people came in.

They were -- they were allowed to

register fairly quickly, and in some cases, kind of breeze through the system, process. There's a second system where Arizona councils, among others, were required to wait in line. Are you aware of this? I'm sorry. Correctly what?
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Q.

I'm sorry.

Required to wait in line.

Were you

aware of this? A. I didn't see two systems. No, I wasn't aware of

Q.

I -- okay.

That's my description.

Did you see -- you were in the -- you testified you were in the Senate Room? A. Q. I wasn't there the whole time. I was in and out.

Well, when you were in and out of the Senate

Room, did you see -- did you see registration going on? A. Q. A. No, sir. You saw no -- no one registering anyone. Not a single person. Everybody was in the -- had

to go to registration -Q. A. Q. What was going on in the Senate Room? Excuse me? Sorry. I didn't mean to jump on you.

What -- what was going on in the Senate Room? A. I mean, when I was there, I think they were

handing out some T-shirts and that's basically it, that I saw. Q. A. And who were they handing out T-shirts to? Whoever came in and asked for them. I don't -- I

don't know.

I mean, as people would go in, they would
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hand them some T-shirts. that. Q.

I wasn't involved in any of

What was the basis of your legal opinion that

approximately 48 councils in Arizona were, quote, "not in good standing" unquote? A. That Mr. Miguel Zazueta had not been a member of

good -- in good standing of an active council when he sponsored these councils and/or individuals. Q. Does the -- does national LULAC sometimes extend

the time to pay dues for councils? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. On occasion, yes. Did it do so in 2013, to your knowledge? You know, I don't remember. You don't remember? No, sir. So if you don't remember, how do you know whether

Mr. Zazueta was not in good standing? A. Because according to the LULAC records, he was That was --

not a member of -- in good standing. Q. A. What records?

Who -- that sounds like hearsay.

That was -- that's information that's provided by

the membership director, who was also here to testify, as I understand, and she's the one that keeps track of who is or is not in good standing. Q. But if the deadline was extended, he would have
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been in good standing; right?

His -- his continued

membership would have been good. A. No. My understanding is that he tried to tender

his dues on June 12th finally, and that was -- in fact, I don't know if he tried to tender them at that point. he tried to do something with regard to his dues. But

I think

he was trying to transfer councils or something like that. Q. If you don't know whether there's an extension or

to the extent to which the extension was, and you don't know when he tendered his -- his application or -- or registration, how do you know he's in bad standing? A. that. Q. I do know. The membership director advises me of

That's her job. That's hearsay. So do you have personal knowledge of whether

he was in bad standing? A. The only information I have what was provided to And, actually, I did

me by the membership director.

contact Mr. Zazueta and I spoke to him and I asked him to provide me any additional documents he might have to consider in my rendering a legal opinion. And he never

sent me anything that indicated he had paid his 2013 dues, so I suppose I had that also. Q. I'll strike that as nonresponsive. I'll move to

strike that nonresponsive.
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 question? same. BY MR. FORD: Q. BY MR. FORD: Q.

MR. GUAJARDO:

He was -- he was asked how

did he know that he was a member, so I think he's responded. THE COURT: MR. FORD: Overruled. Okay.

What part of the LULAC -- where in the LULAC

constitution does it say, essentially, that you need to have a member of good standing to sponsor a new LULAC council? A. book. Could I get my version of it? You may have seen it. It's a little

I mean, it's easy for me --

it's easier for me to track. THE COURT: matches what I'm reading. THE WITNESS: Yeah, it is, Judge. It's the Yes, you may. As long as it

Now, Mr. Escobar -THE COURT: THE WITNESS: Let him turn. Do you want me to answer the

THE COURT:

-- to the page.

There's still a question on the table. MR. FORD: Excuse me.

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THE COURT: THE WITNESS: member or a council -MR. FORD:

You asked him what provision. What provision that -- that a

Let me withdraw -- let me

withdraw that question and ask another real quick, if I may. I'll get to it, but -THE COURT: Okay. As long as you get to it,

because I want to know the answer. MR. FORD: get there for sure. BY MR. FORD: Q. The version of the LULAC constitution that was We'll get -- Your Honor, we will

available in approximately June of 2013 that was -- that I downloaded that was stipulate -- that was admitted into evidence by stipulation, is that the current -- has it been updated since then? constitution? A. I think what's happened was there's been Is that the current

amendments that were incorporated in the recently printed one. But I actually have the one from -- from that period I have them both.

of time, if you want that one. Q.

It would be good for us to be reading from the

same libretto, so to speak. A. That's fine too. Actually, I have them back

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about four editions. Q. Yes.

I'm reading from the 2008 edition.

That's -- that's what appears to be -- what

we have a copy of in our exhibit. Sir, okay, now we'll go back to the question that was on the table before. patience. A. Q. Yes, sir. And that is, where does it say in the LULAC Thank you for your

constitution that you have to have -- specifically must have a member of good standing sponsor a new council or membership? A. Okay. If you look at -- I believe it's page 21,

which would be -- I'm hoping it's the same as what you got -- would be Article VI, Section 8, the Local Council. Q. Hang on a sec. Page 21, oh, okay. Okay? I've got it

on 19, local council. A. Q. You ready.

So I have -- I have on this document, page 19 -THE COURT: Wait, wait, wait, wait. You're

going to confuse me. you're on.

Tell me what section and number

THE WITNESS: THE COURT: THE WITNESS: subsection (a).

Yes, sir. Section 8. Yeah. Section 8,

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. FORD: Q. Okay.

THE COURT: THE WITNESS: MR. FORD:

That's page 19 in this version. Okay. I'm sorry, Judge.

Oh, do you -Actually, (b).

THE WITNESS:

And what provision specifically are you

referring to, sir? A. Q. A. (B). Can you read in the record the relevant section? "A local council may be organized under the

sponsorship of an active council and/or any district, state, or national board of directors, officer, or any combination of these, according to the procedures set forth below." Q. Okay. I believe that's where it says it. Are you aware of whether LULAC has

accepted the registration of a -- of a council that wasn't sponsored by someone? A. Q. A. Q. A. I'm not aware of any. Please turn to Exhibit 16. 16? Uh-huh. There's nothing here, sir. Is that -- oh, is

that the list? Q. No, sir. That -- there -- oh, there should be It's one of yours. 16 is your

defense exhibits in there.

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opinion letter dated the 12th of June. A. I don't have our -- our exhibits here, sir.

These are your exhibits. Q. A. You're using the Court's, actually. There's nothing after 16, Judge. MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT: Here's 16.

Where are the -- where are

the -- does the Court not have the defense exhibits marked? COURT OFFICER: I'm sorry (indiscernible).

You should have 25 exhibits, total. THE COURT: THE WITNESS: Okay. I'm sorry, sir. I may have

gotten the list out of order. THE COURT: THE WITNESS:

Can you tell me what --

What's marked on it? It says 8, but there's I'm

somebody -- there's something -- oh, here it is. sorry. Yes, it's here, Judge. THE COURT: THE WITNESS: trying to avoid. THE COURT: Thank you.

Don't mess up my exhibits. Yes, sir. That's what I was

So my next question, is there

not an Exhibit 16 in the Court's set of exhibits? THE WITNESS: THE COURT: I don't see one, Your Honor. We'll figure that out. There's

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no Exhibit 16. THE WITNESS: sir. MR. FORD: Your Honor? THE COURT: MR. FORD: BY MR. FORD: Q. All right. So Exhibit 16 is a -- is a letter, Is Yes, you may. Okay. Shall I proceed, then, I think I have Exhibit 16,

and is that your name at the top of the letterhead? that your letterhead? A. Q. It is, Your Honor. Thank you. Did you draft this letter? A. Q. A. I did. Okay. I'm sorry, sir.

And what is the purpose of this letter?

In responding to an opinion -- or an opinion

request made by Mr. David Hernandez. Q. opinion? A. Q. I would. Okay. Sorry about that. I'm going to ask that So would you characterize this as a legal

you read into the record the last sentence in the second paragraph, beginning with "because." A. "Because he was not a member of good standing,
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his signatures are not effective.

And the various

applications described above were fatally defective." Q. A. Q. And to whom does "he" refer, the word he? Mr. Zazueta. Okay. So what -- what provision in the LULAC

constitution makes it, in your words, fatally defective -a member application fatally defective, if it's not signed by a sponsor? A. There's two provisions. I read one of the

provisions earlier, but there's actually another provision that relates to members. Q. A. Okay. And that is at section -- or Article IV -- well, I guess it's at the very,

there's not a subsection. very -- at the top. Q.

So we're at -- that's on -- we're going back to

Exhibit 15. A. Q. A. Q. A. I have. Correct. And page -The constitution. Page 4, at least on our document, Your Honor. I believe it's page -- yeah, it's page 4 of what But it's Article IV and it would be the third --

I guess the second -- maybe the third full paragraph, because I'm not sure if the top one is a full paragraph.
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It starts with "membership in the league." Q. If you would be so kind, could you read that into

the record, please? A. "Membership in the league may be affected through

an individual initiated application to a local council, the recommendation of a member in good standing, or in the case of certain types of memberships stipulated in Section 3 and 4 below, through the recommendation of a Council in good standing to the National Assembly or the National Board of Directors." Q. A. Is there a word "sponsor" in there anywhere? This is for membership. You're -- you're You're combining

combining two different concepts here.

the concept of an individual member and the concept of a council. As the judge asked earlier, you have to be a Yes, you

member of a council to be a member -- I'm sorry.

have to be a member of a council to be a member of LULAC. So the very first thing you start with is you start with membership. Councils are made up of memberships. These were all new councils, so they needed to be sponsored, either by a local council -- and to me that means a council in good standing. Can't be a council Or the

that was a council ten years ago and no longer is. recommendation of a member in good standing.

So Mr. Zazueta on two counts, number one, he
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was not a member of good standing himself.

And, number

two, he was also not a member of good standing because he was not a member of an active council. Q. Well, we don't know what he was not a member in We haven't established that, at least from

good standing. your testimony. A. Q. A. I know. Okay.

So you're -- that's just your opinion. That's -- that's the information

No, sir.

provided me by the membership director of LULAC. Q. Which at this point is hearsay. So, again, as

far as testimony is concerned, it's mere opinion. A. opinion. Q. Now, were the -- did LULAC -- do you have It's my opinion. That's why it's a legal

personal knowledge whether LULAC initially chartered those -- those councils? A. I believe there -- that Lupe did issue -- issued

charters, and then she notified them that she had issued them in error. Q. Okay. So -- so the councils -- these councils,

these roughly 48 councils were chartered? A. I think at one point they were, and their

charters had to be withdrawn because of the error that Lupe made.
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Q. A. Q.

Withdrawn.

Wouldn't the proponent withdraw it?

Lupe -- Lupe -Did the proponent withdraw? In other words, did

each council proponent withdraw their -- their application or their charter registration. saying? A. Q. A. I'm not aware -- I'm not aware that they did, no. Okay. What happened? Is that what you're

Lupe corrected the error and notified the board

and also notified the individual members or the individual councils, from what I understand, that she had issued those charters in error. Q. A. Who told Lupe that they were in error? I think she did it herself. I mean, she -- I

think she read my opinion, but I'm -- you'd have to ask her exactly. Q. So is it -- is it truly contemplated somewhere in

the -- in the LULAC constitution or bylaws that you can -that LULAC can accept these registrations and then renege on it -- renege on them? A. Sir, when it -- when it -MR. GUAJARDO: Your Honor. done. THE COURT: Sustained. Objection -- objection,

Mis -- misrepresents what was -- what was

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. FORD: Q.

MR. FORD:

I'll rephrase the question.

Is it contemplated that -- is there a process by

which -- stated in the constitution by which someone in LULAC can sort of decide that, for whatever reason they give, these councils aren't -- aren't -- are not in good standing when they've already been accepted as in good standing? A. Q. A. Yes, sir, there is. And what's that? A legal opinion. That's my responsibility, and I

take my responsibility seriously, to issue legal opinions that relate to the constitution and bylaws of LULAC. All

of this relates to the constitution and bylaws of LULAC. So I believe that it -- that that's where it's contained. Q. When did this so-called legal opinion, when did

this -- this opinion get communicated to the councils who had already been registered and traveled -- they've made expenditures, took time out of their lives, and traveled to Las Vegas? A. I think around June the 12th, shortly thereafter.

Within a day or two. Q. guessing? A. Yes, sir.
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Do you have personal knowledge or you're just

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Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A.

And what exactly was the form of communication? I believe there were emails. Emails? And I was copied on the emails. What? I was copied on the emails. Emails sent to whom? To the individual councils, Mr. Zazueta, and I

actually personally spoke to Mr. Zazueta myself. Q. But there are no -- there's no exhibits as to

that, I guess, but -- okay. A. I think there is, but I guess that would come in

in on our case in chief. Q. All right. Fine.

So you -- you -- do you recall when the national convention took place? A. Q. I'm sorry? Excuse me. Do you recall the dates of the

national convention? A. Q. A. I don't off the top of my head, sir. Was it in June of 2013? Yeah. I -- you know, we were talking about it

yesterday.

I can't remember if it was late June or like

right after 4th of July, but it was in that time frame, in that 2- or 3-week period.
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Q.

I think there's some testimony that it was

June 18th through 22nd. A. Q. A. Then I -The National Assembly on the 22nd. -- that's when it was. I don't dispute it. I don't -I

just -- you asked me if I remember. Q. A. Q. Okay. -- actually remember. Fair enough. Fair enough.

So there has been -- I'll do it this way. There has been testimony that at -- on the 22nd, was the National Assembly vote. Leading up to that were various

activities of the convention. A. Q. Yes, sir. And you -- and you issued this letter on the 12th

of June, the same month? A. Correct. MR. FORD: Okay. Pass the witness.

MR. GUAJARDO:

Your Honor, we move into It's been identified. I

evidence Defendant's Exhibit 16.

don't know if it was offered into evidence. THE COURT: MR. FORD: THE COURT: I assume there's no objection. No objection. It's admitted, but I don't -- I

don't think we have our copy -- the Court's copy.
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. A. Q. Mr. Escobar? Yes, sir. You heard Dr. Soto's testimony that -- that he CROSS-EXAMINATION

took these copies of some documents that he attested to were pertaining to some councils from Arizona to the credentials committee. Is that a proper procedure, based Can -- can he

on your legal capacity as legal advisor?

just take copies to the credentials committee on the day of the convention? A. At that point, he couldn't, and the reason he

couldn't is because there was a legal opinion on the floor. And my -- or my understanding was that that legal

opinion was going to be called into question in accordance with our constitution. And that is their remedy. There

is a remedy in the constitution that is afforded Mr. Zazueta, and -- actually, I guess the councils. And

so once -- once the -- once the resolution or once that particular question is decided by the National Assembly, which is the ultimate authority of the League, then -then if they had decided in -- in their favor to go ahead and overturn the legal opinion, then I think that would have been proper at that point.
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Q.

He would have been -- they would have been

credentialed once the two-thirds vote was given in their favor; correct? A. Assuming that everything else was in order -I mean, this is not haphazard. There

there's a process.

is a process that occurs -Q. They would still have to have delegate letters

and all of the other credential requirements? A. They would -- they would be -- they would have to

be -- had to have the same things as everybody else. Q. So just taking copies of documents, if you're

minus the delegate letter, you still don't get credentialed; is that a fair -A. If there's no delegate letter, you're not

credentialed. Q. All right. Is Robert -- Robert's Rules of Order

followed in LULAC business? A. First, the constitution is followed. Then the

rules of the convention are followed.

And then the -- I

believe the rules of the convention actually provide that, if the rules don't address a particular matter, then that matter is covered by Robert's Rules of Order. Q. All right. And does Robert's Rules of Order

allow for either show of hands, stand up, or roll call, and all these other methods, for elections?
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A. Q. A. Q.

You know, I'm not certain, to be -You're not certain? -- yeah, to be candid of that. And you said that -- that -- that ultimately,

there were two sections, Article IV on page 4, and then the -- the other where -- on page 29, rather, as far as a member in good standing vis-á-vis just general membership, and then the initiation of councils or members who initiate their members through a sponsorship of a member in good standing. Did Mr. Zazueta ever provide any documentation to show that he was a member in good standing on the date in question? A. Q. do that? A. I believe I did. We spoke on several occasions He sent me No, sir, he did not. And did you give him an adequate opportunity to

over the telephone.

We corresponded by email.

some documents by email.

But he was never able to show me

a document that -- where he -- where he showed that he had actually paid his dues. I did advise him that the So

national office showed that his dues were not paid. give me something that shows that you paid them. never was able to provide that. Q. All right.

And he

You also were asked if he -- if that
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could be an extension of dues.

Is there a requirement

that the person be a member in good standing a certain time frame before the convention, that they have to -A. Q. frame? A. to vote. Q. A. All right. They can be a member and in good standing and You There is -- there is a requirement, if they want Not --- pay all their dues, in fact, by a certain time

just not have the right to vote at the convention.

have to be a member of -- in good standing of an active council at least 30 days before the convention. Q. And just to answer counsel's question. Assuming

that he paid the dues on June 12th or made provisions to show he had been paid, would he -- had he still been timely if he -- you have a 30-day requirement? A. If he paid them -- if he paid them on June 12th

or thereafter, he would not -- he would not be able to vote. I mean, he could be a member of LULAC, but he just

wouldn't have a vote at that particular convention. Q. And what would be -- what was then the effect

then at the -- at the National Assembly when the delegation from Arizona was voted down on their request to be seated as delegates?
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A.

The National Assembly considered a motion to

overrule my legal opinion and -- and the effect was that they were not -- I mean, their -- their councils, as part of Mr. Zazueta's sponsoring them were not recognized. mean, the effect of the -- was basically what's in the opinion. Q. All right. Now, you were asked if you were I

familiar with the constitution. A. Q. League? A. Q. It is. And does that include judicial, legislative, and Yes, sir. Is the constitution the supreme law of the

executive powers? A. Q. Yes, sir. Is there any provision in the LULAC constitution

to go to court if you disagree with the constitution on interpretation -A. Q. A. No, sir. -- of the National Assembly? There is not. MR. GUAJARDO: Your Honor. THE COURT: MR. FORD: Any redirect? Yes, Your Honor, briefly. We have nothing further,

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. FORD: Q. Okay. So, again, we're looking at Article III of BY MR. FORD: Q. There was testimony that if -- if I understood REDIRECT EXAMINATION

you correctly, there's testimony that if Mr. Zazueta paid after June 12th, he would not have been able to vote. Might have been a member, but not able to vote. provision of the constitution provides for that? A. I believe it's in the section that calls for I'm familiar with it. I don't What

voting at conventions.

have it memorized, sir, so please forgive me. Q. A. I understand. I -- I ...

It's either there or in the section that deals

with membership dues. Q. Would that be Article III of the bylaws starting

on what I have as page 70? A. Q. Hold on a second. Hold on.

What I might do, to speed things up, is withdraw

the portion of my last question that said what provision and instead ask -- direct your attention to a provision in the bylaws if, that would be okay with the Court? THE COURT: It's fine.

the bylaws, Section 3, which is labeled -480.227.4077 www.TAtrans.com TRUAUDIO TRANSCRIBERS, LLC

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A. Q.

I'm sorry.

You said article? My version, it starts on

III of the bylaws.

page 70, and I can flip to what I have as -- what I think the Court has as 71. A. 70. All right. Q. Okay. You're asking me.

So I'd like -- I'd ask you to start by

reading into the record subsection (a) of Section 3, please. A. Q. I'm sorry. Subsection (a) on page 71, if that's how it is on

your -- labeled on your book? THE COURT: MR. FORD: Section 3 (a). Section 3 (a), in short. You want me to read that

THE WITNESS: section? MR. FORD:

Please. [As read] Any Active Member

THE WITNESS:

subject to Council dues, including a Life Member, an exempt, otherwise who is in arrears for three months shall be suspended from all privileges of membership and so advised by the secretary of his or her council immediately. Such member may be reinstated by simply However, if she/she

paying his or her dues in arrears.

continues to be in arrears for six months, he/she shall be
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dropped from the rolls and so reported to the district, state, and national office. BY MR. FORD: Q. Okay. And I'm going to ask -- it's a bunch of

reading, but I'm going to ask you to go ahead with (b) as well. A. It's a little shorter. [As read] A member that has been dropped from the

rolls for nonpayment of dues may be reinstated by majority vote of his or her Council by following either of two procedures below, by presenting a written request for reinstatement, enclosing the full amount of dues in arrears. Number two, by applying anew for membership

according to the established procedures for new members. Q. A. Q. So where's the 30-day -I was looking for it, sir. Sounds like if you pay your dues you're

reinstated or? A. That's a slightly different provision. That has

nothing to do with voting. Q. Well, while you're looking, what is this -- what

do those sections you just read in the record mean to you? What's your interpretation of them? A. Q. It means that a member can be reinstated. And is there any delay in the reinstatement upon

paying dues, according to these sections?
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A.

Well, he has to -- whoever the member is has to

comply with the different provisions, so I'm not sure -Q. A. Q. Which different provisions? What we just read. Okay. All right. Then turning to earlier

testimony, you made reference to Exhibit 14, which is the LULAC convention rules. And I'm going to ask you to -- to

take a look at that, please. A. Q. What article and section is that, sir? I'm sorry. I'm -- I'm going to Exhibit 14, now,

which is -- you made reference earlier in your testimony to the convention rules. A. Q. Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah. That's what you're referring to.

I -- I'm jumping -- kind of jumped ship.

Sorry about that. A. Q. Okay. It's -THE COURT: Mr. Ford, you're tending to All right.

trail off at the end of your sentences, and Mr. -- the witness and I -- Escobar -- are not hearing the ends of your sentences sometimes, is the problem we're having. MR. FORD: my best to speak clearly. BY MR. FORD: Q. So this -- this document, can you identify the
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Thank you, Your Honor.

I'll do

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document? A. Q. A. Q. It's a -- the rules of the convention. Did you have any role in preparing them? No. Do you have any personal knowledge as to when

they were prepared? A. Q. A. Q. together? convention? A. Q. There's a rules committee. And have you -- as part of your role, your work I do. When were they prepared? It would have been in the spring of 2013. And who -- if not you, who -- who puts these Who decides on what the rules will be for a

as legal advisor to LULAC, do you review the convention rules? A. Q. A. Q. I don't. Do you see them each year? I see them. -- become familiar with them in some -- to some Do you --

degree or another? A. Q. Yes, sir. Okay. Has standup voting ever been called for in

the rules before 2013? A. We've always -- almost always done it that way.
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Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q.

That's not exactly what I asked. I've been a member -I asked -Yes, it's called for. Do the rules -In answer to your question. -- specify standup voting, have they in the past,

or is this new for 2013? A. No. I mean, that's basically the way it's been.

People stand up to show their hands because they can't be seen. Q. Typically, they're just sitting. Okay. Let's -- let's look a little more closely Elections shall be by stand

at Rule 5 on that document.

up, show of hands, or roll call vote. That's disjunctive, so it sounds like these rules allow for mere standup voting, just -- which has been described, I believe, in other testimony as people just sort of standing up to show they're in support or in opposition? MR. GUAJARDO: Misstates the evidence. THE COURT: BY MR. FORD: Q. How many -- do you know how many delegates were Sustained. Objection, Your Honor.

seated in the convention?
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A. Q.

I'm sorry.

How many what?

Do you know how many delegates were seated in the

convention? A. I don't know the exact number. I think it was a

little over 1,600. Q. A. A little over 1,600? Yeah. I'm going to say 1650, but I know that's I'm off probably give or take 15. These

not the number.

are certified delegates. Q. Was this rule followed during the Las Vegas

National Assembly where the head of each delegation announced his or her council's vote and the election judge repeated the vote to the floor? place during the standup voting? A. Q. A. That did not take place. So you didn't follow the rule? Followed the rule. The rule is, it can be Did all of that take

standup vote, by show of hands, so the rule was followed. I'm not sure what rule you're referring to. Q. The part of Rule 5 that I just read, the head of

each delegation shall announce his or her council's vote on the -- and the election judge shall repeat the vote to the floor. Was that rule followed? A. No, because there wasn't a roll call vote.
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Q.

I didn't ask why because. Yes or no?

It was just a

yes-or-no question. A.

No, there wasn't a -- there wasn't a vote by each

delegation. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Was there an election judge? Yes. Were there -- and who was that? Roger Rocha. Excuse me. I think I said that. I think you did.

Now who appointed Mr. Rocha? A. Q. The president of LULAC. Okay. And were there -- did Mr. Rocha appoint a

timekeeper and three official counters? A. Q. A. You know, I'm -If you're aware. I'm not sure Mr. Rocha did. I think he did.

There were -- there was a counter and -- there were counters, and there was a timekeeper, I can tell you that much. know. Q. And was there -- this is -- I'm referring, I wasn't involved in that, so I -- I really don't

Your Honor, to Rule 4 and 3 -- 3 and 4 of this convention rules, where it called for time keeper and counters. And what's the role -- what are the counters supposed to do?
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A.

They're supposed to assist and count in this

part -- part of the elections. Q. A. Q. A. Q. votes? A. You'd have to ask them exactly what they did. I Counting what? Excuse me? Counting what? Votes. Right. The delegates. But they -- did they -- did they count

know that they -- they -- they did their duty, as far as I could tell. Q. Did you observe these vote counters specifically

counting votes? A. Yes, I mean, I saw them up there. They were --

they were standing up above everybody.

They were on a --

on a platform so that they could view the -- the floor. Q. A. Q. Were any votes announced? Excuse me? Were votes that were -- numbers of votes

announced at any point? A. I don't know if numbers were announced. The

voting was announced. Q. A. So no vote counts were announced? I don't remember hearing any vote counts, in the There was an announcement as to
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sense of a number.

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who the winners were. Q. Okay. MR. FORD: THE COURT: Nothing further, Your Honor. Let's take our morning break.

(Recess taken from 10:59 to 11:16 a.m.) THE COURT: witnesses? THE WITNESS: MR. FORD: THE COURT: THE WITNESS: MR. FORD: THE COURT: Am I done? Mr. Ford, do you have any other

Yes. You're done. Okay.

Paul Martinez, please. How many longer? Your hour's

turned into an hour and a half. MR. FORD: Well, if the Court breaks at noon I'll do my best to

for lunch, we'll be done before that. make sure we are done before that. THE COURT: MR. GARCIA: MR. FORD: THE COURT: Okay.

Mr. Martinez.

I'll go get him. Okay. Please come forward. You're

going to stand right here in front of my clerk, in front of this table. COURT OFFICER: Would you state and spell

your name for the record, please.
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. FORD: Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A.

THE WITNESS:

Paul, P-A-U-L, A. as in my

middle initial, Martinez, M-A-R-T-I-N-E-Z. COURT OFFICER: Thank you.

(The witness is sworn.) THE COURT: Please go behind the podium, You're going to end

you're going to go up the ramp here. up over here on my left.

PAUL A. MARTINEZ, a witness herein, having been first duly sworn to speak the truth and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION

Please state your name for the record. Paul, middle initial A, Martinez. And your city and state of residence? Las Cruces, New Mexico. And are you a member of LULAC, sir? Yes, I have been. And how long have you been a member of LULAC? Since 1981, give or take, in that -- in that -Probably maybe '80.

that year. Q.

Have you held directorship at the state level?
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A.

Yes, I have.

And I've been a state director from

2006 to 2010. Q. A. Q. A. In what state? In the state of New Mexico. And have you held a national office? I've been on the board during that time, and I

was also from 1983 to '84, I was the national youth president. Q. A. I'm sorry? I was national youth president from -- in those

years, '83, '84. Q. Okay. Okay. Have you had involvement with

drafting of the current constitution or past -A. Q. A. The 2008 edition, yes, sir. And what was your role in that? Both me and Mr. (Indiscernible) and the

constitutional review committee. Q. A. Q. You served on the constitutional review -Yes. -- committee? And what did you do? A. Basically tried to update the constitution, look

at what amendments had passed and -- to put it together to the 2008 edition. Q. I see.
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And by -- in having done so, would you say you have a pretty good -- what kind of -- how thorough an understanding do you -- do you have of -A. Well, you know, there's always a lot of serious

debate, but I think we tried to get what was passed by the membership. We go by what the membership passes and tries

to put it into perspective. Q. with -A. Very familiar with the -- with the 2008 Are you -- do you -- how familiar with you

constitution. Q. if I may. I'm going to ask that you get Exhibit 15. Yes,

We want to leave these in order, but 15's the Keep that one ready too. I'll be asking

constitution. about that.

You're going to be looking at 14 and 15. So on page 4, past the roman numerals, so

into the document on page 4. paragraph.

I think that first full

It's been read in the record, so I won't have

you repeat it, but if you can give it a look and just tell me kind of what does it mean? I mean, how -- how does --

how does someone become a member, really? A. dues. Well, the member is -- they have to pay their If they're -- they pay their dues and they're

allowed the membership and that council has to pay their -- not just paying the dues, they have to pay their
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district, their state dues, and different states have different -- different -- New Mexico, for example, they pay -- the council pays the district and the state dues. But the individual has to pay the national dues. Q. Okay. Let me ask you this. Have you -- have you

ever run a convention, LULAC national convention before? A. Yes. In 19- -- in 2008, in Washington, D.C., I

was the elections chair. Q. A. Q. A. In Washington, D.C.? Yes. And what was your position? I did the elections. I ran the elections. Was

the elections chair for that convention, sir. Q. Okay. And you also attend -- did you attend the

Las Vegas convention in 2013? A. Q. Yes, I did, sir. Were you ever at any point in the Senate Room of

the Caesars Palace hotel where that convention took place? A. Q. Yes, sir. And what did you see happening there, when you

were in there? A. Very long -- very long convention. A lot of

things that were very unorthodox that -Q. A. Hang on --- from any other convention I've been to.
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Q.

I think we're talking about two different things. The Senate Room is -- there's

That's I'm cutting you off.

been testimony up till now that in the Senate Room, there was a -- sort of a special registration area where people who were politically favored by LULAC were able to register quickly and conveniently. Did you yourself go

into this room at any time, into that room? A. I've only witnessed about them being taken out by

national officers and national employees that work for LULAC, to go into that room. And they were also allowed

to go into the convention hall prior to the rest of the delegates, that's correct. Q. Did you see any registration going on at any time

when you -A. Our registrations were cut off, but these people

were registered on -- separate and apart from the rest of the delegates, where delegates had to wait, they cut the registration off, and people were not allowed to register except for those that voted for the administration. Q. Let me ask it this way. Were there two sort of

registrations going on, one in the Senate Room and -A. The official registration one was the one that There was a

everyone should have registered through.

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that were supportive of the current administration. Q. And as to the other registration, the one that

was out apparently in a corridor, how long -- were there lines? A. Long lines. And they were also shut down, I

believe, on Wednesday and shut -- and were not allowed to register and a lot of -- it caused a lot of -- a lot of chaos and pandemonium with a lot of the delegates. Q. A. And -Because they were afraid they weren't going to

get registered and ... Q. While they were waiting, were they -- were they

given food like the other LULAC members? A. sir? Q. Let me back up. So -- so there's been other Are you talking about the day of the convention,

testimony, so I won't -- I won't ask you to give cumulative testimony regarding this. But my question is,

when you ran the convention in 2008, or you worked on the convention, was there a two-tier registration system there as well? A. Q. A. No. The --

Have you seen -The registration system that was -- that was

afforded to in 2008 was the delegates also submit their -480.227.4077 www.TAtrans.com TRUAUDIO TRANSCRIBERS, LLC

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the council submit their delegation letter and -- and they have -- and then it's consistent with the registration. If they're on that letter and they're in the -- and the national keeps a list of all the members in good standing, then if the letter has been presented and all that is looked at, then they're given their -- they're given their credentials, and they have to take a picture and given their credentials. They're a delegate. There -- usually

a red ribbon that identifies them as delegate with their identification, and they're registered very promptly. Q. So the register -- at the '08 convention, were

there lines, long -A. There were lines, but they were very expeditious.

They were -- people got registered within half hour. Q. Okay. And so it is your testimony, just to Just a one --

clarify, there wasn't a two-tiered system? one system? A. sir. Q.

One system that was at the 2008 convention, yes,

And in -- forgive me for bouncing back and forth.

Going back to Las Vegas, did you observe -- there's been testimony in this regard, but did you observe security guards on -- on the 22nd, the voting day, National Assembly day -A. There was quite a few security guards, yes.
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Q.

And what, in your observation, was their purpose? MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT: Objection, Your Honor.

Sustained.

BY MR. FORD: Q. A. What did you see them do? I saw them being prepared to protect the place.

They were extra -- it appeared that they were ready for some type of disturbance. MR. GUAJARDO: Your Honor. Objection. Objection,

Calls for speculation. THE COURT: Overruled. He's saying what he

was seeing -- testifying about what he -THE WITNESS: And -- and to answer your

question, counselor, I talked to some of the security guards, and, yes, they were expecting -MR. GUAJARDO: Objection, hearsay.

Objection, hearsay, Your Honor. THE COURT: MR. FORD: Overruled. Please continue, sir. Counselor, I heard them. We

THE WITNESS: talked.

And as -- people were afraid that there was going

to be some disturbance based on other states having problems at their respective conventions. BY MR. FORD: Q. Did -- did you -- were you credentialed to vote?
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A. Q.

Yes, I was. Did you -- were you admitted to the assembly room

where the vote was taken? A. Yes. With the rest of the other delegates. I

wasn't privileged to go in first. Q. Okay. So -- and when you were admitted, did you

have to show ID? A. Yes. I also had to present my driver's license,

to people that have known me for years. Q. okay. You had to show -- you had to show when you -So to clarify, you had the show your -- the

badge -A. Q. A. The badge already had a photograph -Yes. -- identifying me as a delegate with my And on

photograph, the council I'm from, where I'm from.

top of that, I also had to show an ID card, my driver's license, New Mexico registered driver's license, to be able to be allowed into the convention hall then. Q. Did you observe anybody not having to show their

ID when they were going in? A. The Puerto Rican delegation. They were allowed

to go in first before the rest of the delegation. Q. A. And you -- you saw that -Yes.
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Q.

-- and you saw that the -- were the guards

taking -- looking for their ID -A. Q. of you? A. The guard -- from my observation, the guards No. -- asking for their IDs as they were in the case

didn't come until they decided to open up the convention hall for the -- for the rest of the delegates to enter. And then they were trying to feed people breakfast as well, at the same time. Q. Wait a minute. Let me -- let me see if I

understand.

Let me just ask for some clarification. Were the guards that we've talked about,

were they in place when the Puerto Ricans and the others who were apparently favored -A. Q. With the Puerto Rican delegation --- when they were going -- when they were

entering into the convention hall, were the guards there? A. Q. when -A. Q. The rest of the delegation at large. I see. Okay. No. I could see none.

And just -- and yet they were there when --

The -- we -- I -- we've discussed the -there's been testimony regarding the issue of what I term
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delegate transferring, where delegates are -- alternates are -- it is proposed that they -- they transfer from -from a council, say a council from Tucson, to another council, say one from Puerto Rico. Are you familiar with that practice? A. Yes. If you transfer a delegate to another

council, they have to be from that state and a resident of that state. And they can do it, but it has to be done 30

days prior to a convention. Q. Okay. So when there's -- if -- to the extent

there's been testimony regarding this, if there's delegate transferring going on at the convention, is that -- is that contemplated in the -- the constitution or bylaws? A. That's what it states. A delegate has to

transfer to another council 30 days prior to the convention. Q. 30 days prior. So they couldn't do it at the

convention legally, then? A. Q. No. It would be unconstitutional.

When you had the convention -- when you helped

run the convention in 2008, did you have convention rules, like you see on Exhibit 14, that one-page document? A. They weren't this -- they weren't the same rules.

But, yeah, these rules are normally presented through the -- they're supposed to be presented at the board
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meeting prior to the convention, and then they're presented to the membership and the membership packet to the presidents, and then they have to be voted upon and approved by the assembly. Q. A. Q. Oh. That's the normal --

That's the normal process. -- routine. Were these voted on, that you're aware of?

You said you were -- was there -- do you recall where there was a vote to adopt these rules at the National Assembly? A. They were -- these rules were -- again, no

standup count was done -- in my opinion, there was no standup count -Q. Let me back up -- let me back up a little. Just asking the question specifically, were these -- were these rules adopted at the national -A. Q. They were railroaded through, yes, sir. Okay. MR. GUAJARDO: Objection, Your Honor. As to

the railroaded that (indiscernible). THE COURT: MR. FORD: THE COURT: Rephrase the question. It's his opinion. But he didn't answer the

question, were they adopted.
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BY MR. FORD: Q. A. Q. Were they adopted? They were adopted in an unorthodox manner. However they're adopted, were they adopted, at

the convention? A. According to the -- according to the legal But not voted

opinion and the advisor, they were adopted. properly by the assembly. Q.

While we're on this page, we're going to look

at -- we've read these rules into the record, so, again, I won't want to take up time doing that again, but if you could check out Rule No. Five, on that Exhibit 14, which is the LULAC National Convention Rules for 2013. It says

elections shall be by standup, show of hands, or roll call vote. And what I wanted to ask is, have you ever seen this standup voting provision in any past conventions that you've attended? A. Yeah, but, again, it's -- it's mostly done -- I

mean, it's altogether, means that each council has to -council president announces the council, they all stand up -Q. Hold -- let me -- you're anticipating my next

question, which was how does standup voting typically work, in your familiarity with th term?
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A.

The councils have to stand up and you have vote

counters that have to check the credentials to make sure that that person is a delegate. roll call. And usually it's done by

The -- they have to stand up, and they have to And

be sure that the people are voting are delegates.

they stand up, they all specifically standup and they're counted by counters. And you physically look at their --

at their credential -- credentials, badges that they're, in fact, delegates. Q. And at the Las Vegas convention, what was the

voting method? A. Basically, it was just basically judged by the

naked eye and it was guessed. Q. So to back up. What happened? The -- the -- was

there a standup vote? A. Q. A. There was a standup vote, but it wasn't counted. How would you describe it? Well, there was no -- there was no numbers, this

person got so many votes and this person got that many votes. It was just, they stand up and people wanted to do

points of order, people want to do tallies, and we were cut off. Q. A. Okay. So back up. People just sort of stood up?

People just sort of stood up, and it was up to

the elections judge to decide by his opinion who -- who
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got to win, basically, without any -- without any -Q. A. Q. Do you know --- numbers of who were actually counted. When they -- when they -- hang on. When they

stood up, did they raise their hands too? A. Some even stood on their chairs. There were

people that raised their hand, they stand on chairs, and there was drums being beated by some other delegation. mean, there was no counters that were actually counting the votes. It was just stand up, and, you know, you're I

having to determine, judging it, when it could be very close. There should have actually taken the vote count of That wasn't done.

who -- of who won and who lost. Q.

I'm going to ask you really quickly to go to Okay. Yeah. 80 will be

Exhibit 15, page 80, I believe. Article VI of the bylaws. A. Q. Yes. Decorum. Okay.

Have you gotten there?

I'll just ask you where -- that

you read, I guess, the second -- from the second sentence on into the record, please. A. Q. A. Where it starts with the word "courtesy"? Good order. Oh, good order. "Good order must be maintained if business is to be carried out. Courtesy would demand that there

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should be no whispering or commotion while a speaker has the floor. Q. A. Q. Do not speak too frequently. Be" --

I'll stopped you there. Okay. So -- so was that decorum -- did you observe that

kind of decorum occurring -A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Not at all. -- at Las Vegas? No. Did anybody do anything about it? No. So no one in charge of the -- of that -- that

convention put a stop to this -- this commotion that was being created that you described just now? A. Well, they would cut off the mic if someone felt

that they weren't being heard or being recognized -Q. I'll get to that. I'm asking, you were

describing standup voting, and it seemed quite at variance with your description of how it's supposed to operate, and it sounded like not only were people standing up, they were making noise and that sort of thing. And the

question at that moment in time, did anybody who is -anybody in charge put a stop to the noise? A. Q. No. Did you, while you were at the National Assembly,
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did you observe a motion being made to overturn the legal opinion that stopped -- that was -- had the effect of stopping 48 councils in Arizona from voting? A. Q. Yes. And how -- how would you describe the conduct of Was it -- was it according to -- there's

that vote?

been -- the constitution says, as has been read into the record a couple times, that voting is to be by roll call, show of hands, or secret ballot. A. Q. that. Uh-huh. Now, these rules appear to be at variance with But -MR. GUAJARDO: Objection, Your Honor. That's the constitution.

That's (indiscernible) question. THE COURT: comment. MR. FORD: BY MR. FORD: Q. Was -- was -- were -- were -- was the vote Fair enough. Just sustained as to the

regarding the Arizona legal opinion -- excuse me -- was that conducted by roll call, show of hands, or secret ballot? A. That vote was conducted by basically, all in

favor say aye, all opposed. Q. Okay. Again, forgive the bouncing back and
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forth, but I'm going to ask that we go back to -A. And then -- counselor, there was also -- there

was also a demand from other people to have some type of -MR. GUAJARDO: Nonresponsive. THE COURT: BY MR. FORD: Q. Okay. If we go back to Exhibit 14, which is the Sustained. Objection, Your Honor.

convention rules, we'll see that Rules 3 and 4 say there's supposed to be an election judge essentially to conduct the elections and they're supposed to appoint a timekeeper and three official counters. Did you observe timekeepers

or -- a timekeeper or counters counting when they did these standup votes, that you described? A. To my -- to my -- what I saw, there was no -- no It was just allowed by

one taking votes of count [ sic ].

the call of the elections chair to basically have the discretion to say -- to declare the winner. Q. I see. So it doesn't -- okay. And the Rule 5, the second part, says the head of each delegation shall announce his or her council's vote, and the election judge shall repeat the vote to the floor.
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. FORD: Q. A. A. Q. A. Q. No.

Did any of those things happen?

During the vote regarding Arizona. Did it happen during any votes? To my recollection, no. Okay. I'm going to ask about membership.

When -- when is -- if someone wants to become a member in 2013, when did that person need to have his or her dues paid? A. member? Q. A. Existing member. If they're an existing member, they had -- the Do you know what that -If they're a new member or if they're an existing

constitution says that all councils have to pay by the -I believe the -- the end of January 2008. But there's

always an extensions that have been given since 2000, if there's been extensions by the national board -MR. GUAJARDO: Objection, Your Honor.

Have there been extensions given? Since 2008, since I've been involved in LULAC,

they've always given an extension, the national board. Q. A. Who's given an extension? The board. The board votes at the meeting prior

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. FORD: Q. this --

MR. GUAJARDO:

Objection as to whether it

was extended in this particular case. THE COURT: Sustained. Not in 2008, Your Honor. It was -- it was extended in

MR. GUAJARDO: THE WITNESS:

MR. FORD:

I was getting to that, counsel.

So I was speaking more generally, are these

extensions granted typically during the year? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. You've been part of LULAC a long time -Yes. -- so I'm just sort of wanting to ask that. So was an extension, to your knowledge, granted in 2013? A. Q. A. Q. A. Yes. And do you know how long that extension -I believe it was till April the 10th. April the 10th? Of 2000 -- of 2013. So if you were already a

council that paid dues in 2012, for example, your dues were extended -- you had to pay your -- your 2013 dues, you were given an extension to April the 10th. Q. Okay. Let's go to Exhibit 15, page 71, please.
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And under 3, dues and arrears, A -- just -- I'll just have you -- we've read into the record. If you could have a

look at that first sentence, starting with "any active member." A. "Any active member subject to council dues,

including life member, not exempt otherwise, who is in arrears for three months shall be suspended from all privileges of membership and so advised by the secretary of his or her council immediately. Q. A. Q. months. Okay. -- may be -I'll stop you there. So in arrears for three Such member" --

So in your understanding of things, is someone in So -- so let's

arrears beginning when the extension ends?

say the extension is to April 10th, and I didn't -- I was a member in 2012, and I didn't pay my dues for 2013, and as of April 10th, the extension ended. Does this -- does

this apparent grace period of three months begin on April 10th? MR. GUAJARDO: Objection, Your Honor.

There's no -- this man's not qualified to answer that. That's ultimately a legal opinion, Your Honor, which is contrary to the constitution and bylaws that -MR. FORD: Actually, he's -It's the legal advisor's

MR. GUAJARDO:

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opinion. MR. FORD: He's been established as someone

who was part of the revision of the constitution and he knows it quite well. THE COURT: it's worth. MR. GUAJARDO: legal opinion, Your Honor. We object to him giving a The constitution says there's He can give his opinion for what

a legal advisor that can render that legal opinion. THE COURT: He can give his opinion as to

what the sentence means, without it being a legal opinion. He's not making a legal conclusion. opinion. He can do that. MR. FORD: Please go ahead and answer. If his council allows him to He's just giving his

THE WITNESS: do so, yes.

And the national board -- I mean, the

council, really, if he pays his dues and if he's in good standing, it's really -- the council has that option. And, yes, it would be extended to pay dues as long as he pays his dues. BY MR. FORD: Q. A. Q. this way. Eventually? Yes. Okay. But he -- he wouldn't -- let me ask it

If -- if the member had an extension until
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April 12th, on May 12th -- or April 10th.

On May 10th,

which is only one month later, his -- would his privileges not still be in effect? This rule says three months. Again, Your Honor, the

MR. GUAJARDO:

question, in essence, begs a question as to whether the council grants him permission to do so. There's been no

evidence as to whether the underlying condition has been met in this case. THE COURT: MR. FORD: you. Overruled. There's no -- excuse me. Thank

Please proceed, sir. THE WITNESS: Yes, based on the

constitution, yes. BY MR. FORD: Q. A. So --

I mean --

It would have to be argued before the assembly.

Normally these things where the dues are questioned and they're challenged, if it's a district convention, if it's a state convention or a national convention, it can be challenged by the assembly and the assembly has the final say-so on to how the -- the body will allow a council or member. Q. Based on your experience and having attended --

have you attended a large number of conventions -A. Yes.
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Q.

-- over the years? Based on that experience, what have you

observed to be the practice at assemblies with regard to those who are members of LULAC but not credentialed to vote? Are they allowed into -- typically into the

assembly to observe? A. No. I mean, they're allowed to observe, but

there's always been a place for delegates to be seated and where there -- they're prevented from going into the area where the delegates are seated. But they're allowed to

observe towards the back of the convention, in most conventions. Q. A. Q. And did that occur in Las Vegas -No. -- in 2013. So observers weren't allowed in? A. Observers that weren't considered members, from They had to be

my recollection, they were not allowed.

all delegates that were allowed in that assembly hall. Q. I see. Did you observe there to be people, other than delegates, like their kids or what have you, in the assembly room in Las Vegas? A. There was one lady that tried to -- that tried to

get in to -- her daughter was mentally handicapped, if I
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recall, but there was -- there was some, yes.

And, I

mean, and there was -- in fact, the Massachusetts delegation that was seated behind the New Mexico delegation, there was a lady that did have a baby with her. Q. In your experience in LULAC, have you ever seen

LULAC accept charters for councils and then suddenly reject them or reverse that acceptance? A. The process is only if they don't pay their dues.

If they made an error in not paying their dues, or didn't pay enough, they usually send them the money back and send them a reason and ask them to pay the right amount, and then the -- you know, they will usually charter them. But

they have to be chartered 30 days prior to any convention. Q. Did -- did the -- going back to the convention

with regard to the vote on -- on the legal opinion that barred the Arizona voters. request a roll call vote? A. It was requested by several delegates to do a Did -- did the -- did they

roll call vote, yes. Q. A. And was one taken? Points of order being made, even division of the

house was requested by several members. Q. Hold on a sec on that. But -- but was -- was the

request granted?
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A. Q. A.

No. Was a reason given? No. The reason was that -- that we didn't have

two-thirds, and to a naked eye, they determined there was not two-thirds votes for the this to happen. Q. A. Q. A. You needed two-thirds vote to appeal? According to -I'm asking about an appeal. Well, to over -- reverse a legal opinion, to

overturn a legal opinion, the assembly must have two-thirds votes to overrule a legal opinion that's -that's given by the legal advisor for LULAC. Q. In your opinion, were there two-thirds in support

of the appeal? A. It -- it could appear to have been that way.

But, again, I couldn't make that educated judgment, unless I had actual numbers of the amount of delegates that were present and who voted for it and who didn't vote for it. Q. A. Q. So it looked close, yet no one counted? No one counted. And yet in your observation and opinion, it

looked like a close vote? A. It looked like a very close vote, yes. MR. FORD: Pass the witness.

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

You were there during the entire election

process, sir; is that correct? A. Q. That's correct, sir. And we're talking about the national LULAC

convention in Las Vegas, Nevada; correct? A. Q. where -A. I was -- I was seated with the New Mexico That's correct. And where were you exactly located in regards to

delegation, which was -- I couldn't really tell you what -- in what the cardinal direction, but was -- if you -- let's say if it was north, I would probably have been seated -- we were probably seated towards the mid right side, facing the convention area, the front and center area. Q. A. Q. Are the delegates seated alphabetically by state? Yes. Arizona being at the front and New Mexico being

behind Arizona; correct? A. on -Q. A. To the side? To the side.
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No.

But we weren't behind Arizona.

We were

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Q.

All right.

Were you aware whether or not the

delegations or the certified delegates were certified prior to the conduction of the actual election for office? Were you there when that happened? A. I was there when the -- when -- when the

credentials person did come in and try to get the vote certified, yes. Q. All right. And the credentials committee being

the ones that determine whether or not a person can become certified as a delegate at the convention; correct? A. Q. Correct. And in order to certify the delegation for

purposes of elections, there is a roll call state by state and council by council to determine the number of certified delegates; correct? A. Q. A. Correct. And that was done here in this case? There was a -- there was a -- what they -- they What they did is they

didn't do the roll call, per se. listed the councils.

And if there was councils in

question, they had to go back to the credentials committee. But they basically -- the councils by state

were, in fact, listed as to how many councils were present and how many councils had -- how many delegates were present and how many they were entitled to.
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That report

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was, from my recollection, was given. Q. And you were there when they certified that, in

fact, all the ones that were credentialed were accepted and -- and the delegation was seated and that there was a credentials report; correct? A. Correct. That was -- that was done -- that was

done, and then there was a challenge for the Arizona immediately thereafter. Q. All right. And you said that according to your

testimony, correct me if I'm wrong, you said that -- that the National Assembly is basically the supreme authority on the issue as to whether or not to seat the delegation from Arizona; correct? A. Q. Correct. There is no provision in the constitution that

you can go to court and overturn the National Assembly, is there, sir? MR. FORD: Objection. Calls for --

MR. GUAJARDO: constitutional LULAC. MR. FORD: THE COURT: BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. A. There is no --

He said he's an expert on

-- legal opinion. Overruled. You can answer.

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Q.

-- provision in the constitution that provides

for a person who is dissatisfied with an election to go to court because they disagree with the National Assembly, is there? A. To my knowledge, I don't -- I don't recollect

any -- this is the first time I ever seen anything come to court, because of the egregiousness that's been demonstrated to the members. Q. A. All right. It's never been done before. We always held fair

elections. MR. GUAJARDO: Your Honor. THE WITNESS: THE COURT: BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. Let me direct your attention to Exhibit 12 that's That's the -- the -- I believe those are the This is when it wasn't. Sustained. Objection, nonresponsive,

in evidence.

convention rules, I believe. THE COURT: Airlines receipt. Exhibit 12 is a Southwest

Exhibit -15.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: THE COURT: Exhibit 15.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: THE COURT: 14.

14.

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BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. A. Q. Do you have 14 in front of you? Yes. You testified that, according to your opinion,

sitting down with your delegation from New Mexico, that you believed that the election by the National Assembly on the motion to seat the Arizona delegation was very close. You said it was a very close -A. To me -- to me it appeared to overturn the legal

opinion, yes. Q. All right. Let me direct your attention to

paragraph 12 of the -- of that exhibit, which reads "challenges to any election." A. Would you read that?

"Challenges to any election must be issued to the

national legal advisor immediately at the outcome of it's announced and before other election has begun. It shall

take two-thirds vote to overturn any ruling made by the national legal advisor." Q. So if we interpret that correctly -- correct me

if I'm wrong -- if someone was dissatisfied with what they saw the -- the vote by the National Assembly on the decision to seat the delegation from Arizona, they had to go to the national legal advisor and make a challenge to the -- to that election immediately right after that decision was made by the National Assembly; correct?
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A. Q. A.

Correct. And did you do that, sir? Several of the delegates did do that, they

attempted to -Q. A. Q. A. Q. that? A. Q. I didn't do it, no. All right. There is no provision in these rules, Did you do that? I didn't do it. Okay. But a lot of other delegates -Just answer my question. Yes or no, did you do Did you do that?

other than paragraph 12, as to how one can make a challenge to an election, is there, sir? A. That is the only -- that is the only -MR. FORD: Objection, relevance. Yes or no? Yes. Okay. Thank you. Yes or no?

MR. GUAJARDO: THE WITNESS: MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT: BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q.

Overruled.

Now, you said that people were making a lot of

noise and that there was not proper decorum and there was too much commotion. Can you identify the persons that

were making the commotion?
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A.

A lot of the Puerto Rican delegation were making

a lot of commotion. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Who specifically -They were directly in front of me. -- from the Puerto Rican? All of them. I mean, there were --

So you're saying --- I would say the majority of them were banging

their drums and making commotions and yelling out names of the candidate who was running. Then you had fights going

on in the Texas delegation, disagreements and -Q. Sir. Can I ask you to just answer my question

and it will make it easier. A. I think I am, counselor. I don't know how I'm

not being forthcoming. Q. Well, I asked you if you knew specifically by

name who had made the individual commotion. A. Q. A. I can -And you gave me that everybody -If you want to give me -- if you want me to give

you specific names of -Q. -- that everybody from Puerto Rico -- that was

not my question. THE COURT: One at a time. One at a time.

MR. GUAJARDO:

That wasn't my question.

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BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. A. Can you give me names? I can -- I can -- I can say Elsi Valdez I can say Jaide [phonetic] I saw delegations from

[phonetic] from Puerto Rico.

was making noise from Puerto Rico.

Texas, Elia Mendoza getting into fights with some of those -- some of her folks there. saw. Q. Okay. And perhaps maybe that's why the security Wouldn't that I mean, that's what I

was there, to take care of the commotion.

be one of the purposes for having security; yes or no? A. Q. Yes. Now, with regards to the questions you've asked

by councils for extensions and so forth for membership, you said that even -- even though an extension had been granted, that's still is conditioned on whether the council -- the individual council agreed to accept that member; correct? A. Q. I can't answer that yes or no. Okay. Well, what if the council wasn't even

active, supposedly, would that member -A. Because that has nothing to do with the -- that's

a completely different article who gives -- would give an extension after the national gives an extension. Q. Well, the key question is -480.227.4077 www.TAtrans.com TRUAUDIO TRANSCRIBERS, LLC

It's --

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A. Q. A.

We're talking about councils -You still agree --- or membership, counselor. There's two

separate -Q. A. Q. Okay. -- issues. The key question was, in order to vote at the

national convention, you said, and I quote, "you must have been chartered at least 30 days prior to any -- to the convention"; correct? A. Q. If you're a new council, that's correct. If you're a new council. And these were all new councils; right? A. Q. Correct. Okay. So they were denied on June 12th because

they were not councils in good standing, and the convention election was in -- in -- June 22nd or 23rd, that still isn't 30 days to overcome that, is there, sir? A. Q. A. Q. But that's not an accurate question -Well -Counselor. -- what I'm saying is that, they had to correct

it 30 days prior to their convention, if it, in fact, it could be corrected? A. Not necessarily. They should -- they were --

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they were given charters -- many of these councils were given charters already by national. And arbitrarily the

legal advisor reversed that opinion on what the national board -- national members gave them. Q. A. All right. They were given -- they were given their charters

and then -Q. A. Well, we have --- arbitrarily and capriciously they were -- they

were taken away from them. Q. Mr. Martinez, there's a national membership

director that makes the decisions as to ultimately whether those charters are going to be recalled; isn't that true? A. Q. But if you -You said they were never recalled for other

reasons, but they can be recalled if there's an error when the -- when the charter was issued and that error can be corrected; isn't that true? A. Q. A. And it's normally, counselor, it is -Yes or no? It is corrected with explanation, Your Honor.

It's corrected, and then they're allowed -- they're allowed to be placed in good standing, provide the votes are there. Q. As long as it's 30 days prior to the convention,
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in order to vote; correct? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Right. But -- but also --

Yes or no yes or no? Yes. All right. Thank you, sir.

But with explanation, Your Honor. Judge, there's no question there. With explanation. Your Honor? Yes or no -- because yes or no, Your Honor, is

not a fair question, because there's an explanation. MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT: redirect. THE WITNESS: BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. Isn't it true that you were supporting Domingo Okay. Your Honor.

Plaintiffs' counsel can

Garcia in this election? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. And then he withdrew his candidacy; correct? No, he did not withdraw his candidacy. You weren't there when he said, I'm withdrawing He

and I'm asking that people support Maria Ramos? withdrew his candidacy. A.

And afterwards, after he was not given a fair
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election that he had no choice. MR. GUAJARDO: been answering my questions. other things. Your Honor, I -- he hasn't He keeps rambling on on

I want him to answer. THE WITNESS: But, Your Honor -- Your Honor,

the counselor's not be truthful to the events. MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT: answer the questions. MR. GUAJARDO: BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. Did you or did you not see Mr. Domingo Garcia Okay. Your Honor.

The witness is directed to

announce that he was withdrawing; yes or no? A. Q. Yes, sir. Okay. MR. GUAJARDO: Your Honor. THE COURT: Redirect. No further questions,

REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. FORD: Q. Is there anything in the constitution,

Mr. Martinez, that says that you cannot go to court if you want to challenge something? A. To my knowledge, no.
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Q. A. Q.

Okay. It's an administrative process. Did others -- there's some -- he asked other --

opposing counsel asked something about whether the -- in accordance with Rule 12, there was some sort of challenge to the legal advisor. You said you didn't, but did you

observe other challenging? A. Q. A. Others tried to go up there and, you know. And what happened? They weren't allowed. They just weren't allowed

and weren't given any consideration. Q. A. Q. A. Was that when this point of order came up? That's correct. Can explain that? The point of order was to -MR. GUAJARDO: MR. FORD: of order last time. MR. GUAJARDO: THE WITNESS: MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT: Judge -Point of order is when -Judge -Objection.

There was testimony to the point

What's the objection? Objection, Your Honor. The

MR. GUAJARDO:

rules of the convention speak for themselves.

There is to

provision for a point of order to challenge the election.
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The only provision is Number 12. MR. FORD: What is the legal objection? Robert's Rules of Order is

THE WITNESS: always -MR. GUAJARDO:

The document that's adopted, It

Your Honor, says that's the only way to challenge. doesn't say -THE COURT: That may be true, but --

MR. GUAJARDO: for roll call vote.

-- that you can make a motion

That's out of the order. Overruled because he can still

THE COURT:

say -- can still testify whether somebody tried to. Whether it's allowed in the rules is a whole 'nother question. THE WITNESS: We go by Robert's Rules of

Order upon that rule, and Robert's Rules of Order were not respected. BY MR. FORD: Q. There's been -MR. GUAJARDO: objection -MR. FORD: There's been other testimony --- calls for his opinion Again, that's calls for --

MR. GUAJARDO: and -MR. FORD:

There's been testimony that --

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. FORD: Q.

MR. GUAJARDO: MR. FORD:

-- interpretation.

There's been other testimony that

Robert's Rules of Order weren't followed. THE COURT: The court understands that.

But what I was asking simply was, did -- did

others challenge -- make the challenge as contemplated in Rule 12? A. Q. Yes -- yes, they did. Okay. And what happened? Were the microphones

turned off? A. Q. A. Yes. Is that when that happened? And they were just not allowed to -- they were -When they were going up there,

you didn't do it in time.

they didn't do it in time and already made the legal opinion and that's it. Q. Did -- it was -- there's testimony elicited about Did the security actually come in and put

the security.

down the commotion that you described in the voting assembly? A. They were -- they were -- the security that was

there, most of them I think were trying to do the best job that they could. Q. What I'm asking is, he asked, in this sort of
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conditional tense, would it be possible or would it be the role of the security guard, and he said yes, no, and you said yes, to put down the commotion. But my question is, did, in fact, the security guards come down and put down these commotions, these fights, and tambourines and -A. Q. A. Q. No. -- and people yelling? No, they were -Did anyone -- did anyone ask for security to come

in and put those -A. that yet. Q. So the people in charge, despite these decorum No. I don't think it had escalated to that -- to

rules, did not ask anyone to come in and put down or quell these -- these -A. Q. That I could recall, no. In your opinion, was the election in the national

convention rigged? A. Yes. MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT: Objection, Your Honor.

Overruled. Speculation.

MR. GUAJARDO: MR. FORD: THE COURT:

No further questions. You may step down.

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 please. forward. 1:26 p.m. ) in recess. break. witnesses?

THE WITNESS: THE COURT:

Thank you, Your Honor. Mr. Ford, do you have any other

MR. FORD: THE COURT:

Plaintiff rests. Okay. Let's take our lunch

Do you mind if we come back at 1:15, so we have a

little extra time. MR. GUAJARDO: MR. FORD: That's fine.

That would be fine, Your Honor.

I appreciate the extra time. THE COURT: We'll come back at 1:15. Stand

(Recess was taken from 12:02 p.m. to

THE COURT:

Please be seated. Thank you.

COURT OFFICER: THE COURT:

Mr. Guajardo? We'd like to call Guadalupe

MR. GUAJARDO:

Morales, Your Honor, as our first witness. THE COURT: Ms. Morales, please come

You're going to stand in front of this table

here to be sworn by my clerk. COURT OFFICER: Spell your name for me,

THE WITNESS:

G-U-A-D-A-L-U-P-E.

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COURT OFFICER: THE WITNESS: COURT OFFICER: THE COURT:

Last name. Morales, M-O-R-A-L-E-S. Thank you very much.

Walk behind before -- sorry. Raise your right hand.

COURT OFFICER:

(The witness was sworn. ) THE COURT: Please walk around the podium.

You're going to head up over here on my left in this chair back here. So walk up the ramp.

GUADALUPE MORALES, a witness herein, having been first duly sworn to speak the truth and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. Ms. Morales, are you the LULAC national

membership director? A. Q. Yes, I am. And can you just briefly give us a background of

your association with LULAC. A. years. I've been working for LULAC national for 20 And I handle membership, and I handle the dues.

The councils, if there's any membership problems, they
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come to me. Q.

And that's basically my duties. Is -- does LULAC maintain a business

All right.

record or database of all its members in good standing? A. Yes. I have a membership database that I do

every year. Q. All right. And are these business records

prepared by you and with your personal knowledge as the events occur? A. Q. A. Q. Yes, I am the one who -Okay. Does ... Let me show you what's been marked as -- I I

believe it's Defendant's Exhibit 17, Your Honor. thought it was up there. THE COURT: may approach. MR. GUAJARDO: BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. Let me show you what's been marked 17. Is it up here?

They're up there, I think.

You

17 is going to be this.

And could

you identify the document for the Court, please. A. This is an email that I wrote to Miguel Zazueta

informing him that he was not a member in good standing. And -Q. And is that your -- is that your -- is that

prepared by you?
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A. Q. A. Q.

Yes, sir. What's the date on that document, ma'am? June 11, 2013. And would you tell the court what you informed

Mr. Zazueta in your -- in your letter or email dated June 11, 2013, Exhibit 17? A. I was informing them that he's not a member in Therefore, the charters that he

good standing with LULAC.

submitted from Arizona were going to be placed on hold until a new sponsor was found. And then I also told him

that he had to resubmit an application with proper signatures and (indiscernible). Q. A. Q. And did he do that? No, sir. Did Miguel Zazueta do any of these things that

you asked? A. Q. No, sir. Apparently -- I'm sorry. MR. GUAJARDO: this time, Your Honor. THE COURT: MR. FORD: THE COURT: BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. We'd like to, Ms. Morales, if you could explain
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Just move it into evidence at

Any objection to 17? No objection, Your Honor. Exhibit 17 is admitted.

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when did you, at what time in -- point in time did you determine that he was not a member in good standing? A. I was -- I believe it was on a Monday after

the -- Arizona had a state -- state convention, and it was called to my attention. Q. All right. You had sent out some charters,

apparently, to these councils under the impression that Mr. Zazueta was a member in good standing prior to June 11th? A. Q. Yes. How did you -- how did you then determine,

then -- did you think he was a member in good standing when these initially were done? A. Yes, I did, since he is a member -- he was a

member in the past. Q. But then once this was called to your attention

after the Arizona convention, did you then check your business records in your database to confirm whether he was, in fact, a member in good standing? A. Yes. I checked my -- both my council database

and my individual member application -- database. Q. All right. Did -- did you also, then, follow up

and see if -- if Mr. Zazueta would be able to prove that he was a member in good standing or did someone else take care of that?
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A.

When I found out what had happened, I informed my

boss, Brent Wilkes, and at that point he said he would take care of the rest. advisor. Q. A. Q. A. Q. But you did contact Miguel Zazueta directly? Yes. In this email? I wrote -- I wrote this. Who else did you advise of this situation And I also contacted the legal

involving Miguel Zazueta's sponsorship and was not a member in good standing? A. I had to inform Lydia -- I believe Lydia Guzmán

because she also signed on some of the applications. Q. A. Q. All right. With -- along with Mr. Zazueta. Did you also advise the -- the national LULAC

executive committee? A. Q. Yes, I had to -Let me direct your attention -MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT: BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. Exhibit 18, Defendant's Exhibit 18. And let me May I approach, Your Honor.

Yes.

show you what's been marked Defendant's Exhibit No. 18. Could you identify that, please?
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A.

This is the email that I had to send to the

executive committee members informing them of what -- of the applications from Arizona. Q. A. Q. A. Q. And what's the date on this particular document? June 11, 2013. And did you prepare this yourself? Yes, sir. And did you prepare it in your capacity as the

LULAC national director of membership? A. Q. Yes. And would you read the subject, where it says What is the subject?

subject of this particular document. A. Q.

Arizona councils being placed on hold. All right. Again, what -- what was the basis for

these councils that had initially been advised they were chartered now being placed on hold? A. I had to inform them that we're -- I had to put

them on hold because I found out that Miguel Zazueta was not a member in good standing, because he didn't pay his 2013 dues. Q. And would you read the line basically where -It

second-to-the-last sentence in that first paragraph. says "due to." A.

"Due to the situation, these councils will not

have voting privileges at the upcoming LULAC national
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convention in Las Vegas.

Notice to these councils is

being provided to them on their council status." Q. All right. MR. GUAJARDO: Your Honor. MR. FORD: THE COURT: BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. Let me direct your attention to Defendant's No objections. Exhibit 18's admitted. We move this into evidence,

Exhibit No. 19, Ms. Morales. MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT: BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. And would you identify Defendant's Exhibit May I approach, Your Honor?

Yes, you may.

No. 19, please. A. These are the -- the councils that we had to put

on hold, the 54. Q. A. And how did you prepare this document? I had to go back to each individual application

and check where Miguel Zazueta signed off on. Q. And based on -- on this exhibit, what is the

standing of these councils that were sponsored by Miguel Zazueta? A. Q. Bad standing. And were these -- was this exhibit prepared in
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the regular course of business based on your personal knowledge of the LULAC membership database? A. Q. Yes. And are you the one responsible for maintaining

that database? A. Q. Yes. And is this true and correct information in this

exhibit as to the standing of these councils? A. Yes. MR. GUAJARDO: Okay. We'll move this

exhibit into evidence at this time, Exhibit No. 19, Your Honor. MR. GARCIA: I'm going to object. The

proper predicate hasn't been laid, Your Honor, or proper foundation. THE COURT: What's missing? Sorry. We have no way to identified All she was asked No way to

MR. GUAJARDO: MR. GARCIA:

whether this is an original document.

is if this is was kept in the course and scope. know that, Your Honor. THE COURT: foundation. BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. Lay a little bit more

Is this kept as a business record of LULAC?
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A. Q.

This, yes. This is a business record. And is this business record kept in the

regular course of business? basis for membership? A. Q. Yes.

You do this on an everyday

And when you prepare this, you do it based on

your personal knowledge of the individual, personal standing of each member indicated on this exhibit? A. Q. Yes. And are you the one responsible for maintaining

the database? A. Q. A. Yes, I am. And are you the custodian of these records? Yes. MR. GUAJARDO: Your Honor? MR. GARCIA: Your Honor. I change my objection, May I move into evidence,

She testified that this was -- said I don't see that in

Mr. Zazueta was not in good standing. this document. or -THE COURT: Yeah.

Are we -- we're talking about Exhibit 19

That's not what this

document is being offered for. MR. GARCIA: Excuse me?

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Your Honor.

THE COURT: MR. GARCIA:

It's not being offered for that. Okay. I thought that she

referred to that as -- that it showed -MR. GUAJARDO: for, Your Honor. MR. GARCIA: case, then no -THE COURT: He -- she -- I think it's just Okay. Well, if that's the That's not what I offered it

offered to be a list of Arizona councils that are -- that LULAC says are in bad standing. MR. GUAJARDO: MR. GARCIA: Correct, Your Honor. Okay. No objections, then,

THE COURT: BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q.

19's admitted.

Did Miguel Zazueta even as of today ever pay his

dues for the purposes of being a member of LULAC, if you know? A. Q. Has he paid his dues? Yeah. We were -- we were -- earlier discussing

whether he could pay them after -- after you sent an email. Did he ever provide any -- any membership dues to

you, after this date? A. Q. After this date -- like proof that he paid? After June 11th -- after June 11th, did he ever?
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A. Q.

No. Okay. MR. GUAJARDO: We pass the witness,

Your Honor. MR. GARCIA: May I approach, Your Honor.

I'm going to use the Elmo -- the Elmo. THE COURT: Yes, you may.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. GARCIA: Q. Ms. Morales, you testified that you prepared

Exhibit No. 18; is that correct? And what I'm going to do is I'm going to show it to you on the Elmo. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Oh, sorry. Do you see that? Yes. And what is the date? Tuesday, June 11th. Okay. And this is the letter you sent to

executive committee saying the Arizona councils were not in good standing; is that correct? A. Q. That they were being placed on hold, uh-huh. Okay. And the only way you could do that is if

you had a legal opinion; isn't it true?
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A. Q. A. Q.

No, because I went back -- they asked me -Who is "they"? The legal advisor and Brent Wilkes. Okay. So Mr. Escobar asked you to go back and

review all the Arizona councils to see if they were good, the day after the Arizona convention; is that correct? A. I was supposed to go back and check to see which

councils Miguel Zazueta signed off on. Q. Right. And did you go back and check? A. Q. Yes. I had to go through each application.

And when you -- do you remember the LULAC roster

you originally prepared on June 7, 2013? A. If I saw it, I can probably -- I prepared several

rosters during that time. Q. A. Q. A. Q. This is the front of it. Okay. Do you remember preparing that roster? That looks like our roster. Wasn't Mr. Zazueta on that roster as being in Exhibit No. 8.

good standing at that time? A. Q. No. Okay. He was never on the roster in 2013. Well, let me now show you -- and this --

going back to the -- the exhibit here that was in front of you. It says, I respectfully request -- oh, excuse me.
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respectfully ask for your cooperation on this matter as there are no special considerations being giving in processing these applications. Do you see that? A. Q. A. Q. A. Yes. Hadn't LULAC routinely accepted late dues? No. It had never happened before? It has happened, but -- we do accept them. The

only exception is you cannot vote at any convention. Q. A. Q. A. know. Q. A. Do you know who Cora Esquivel is? No. I know her by name, but I don't know her Haven't they been allowed to vote? No. Do you -I don't handle the voting process, so I wouldn't

personally. Q. A. Q. Do you know her council? No. When we looked at the list of councils who are in

good standing, was her council in good standing? A. I don't have a list of councils in good standing. MR. FORD: BY MR. GARCIA:
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Exhibit 8.

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Q. believe. A. Q. A. Q.

If you go to Exhibit 8 -- no.

It was No. 19, I

These are the councils in bad standing. Those were in bad standing? Exhibit 19. Uh-huh. Well, oh, okay. It says LULAC council

roster.

Are you saying those are the ones that were in

bad standing? A. Q. A. Q. A. Where it says "standing," it has "bad." I'm talking about for Cora Esquivel. I don't see her council in here. Okay. If her name is not here, then her council's not

in bad standing. Q. Oh, okay. Well, she testified that she paid her dues late and they were allowed to register and vote at the Arizona convention and the national convention. that be an exception? A. She did not pay late. As long as you're in 30 Wouldn't

days prior to a national -- to national convention, which is what I handle, you are in good standing. Q. She testified she paid four days prior to the

state convention.
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A. Q. A.

No. Why would she be accepted? She wasn't -- well, I don't know. But I know she wasn't. Well, let's continue. This was dated Hold on. I wasn't there

in Arizona. Q.

All right.

June 11th.

Let's go on to Exhibit No. 16.

Let's do 17 also, first.

This is the letter to Exhibit 17.

Mr. Esquivel; is that right? A. Q. No. Okay.

It's to Mr. Zazueta. I'm sorry. To Mr. Zazueta. What is the

date of the letter? A. Q. June 11th. And on that letter, you're saying he's not in

good standing; is that right? A. Q. Right. Okay. You would have had to have a legal opinion

in order to say he was not in good standing; correct? MR. GUAJARDO: THE WITNESS: MR. GUAJARDO: director. Objection, Your Honor. He was -She is the membership

She decides who is a member in good standing.

That's her role. MR. GARCIA: Your Honor? MR. GUAJARDO: Misstates the -What is the objection,

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 she said. BY MR. GARCIA: Q. here?

THE COURT: can answer the question. THE WITNESS:

The objection's overruled.

She

I checked my database to see

if his name was in my database. THE COURT: What exhibit are we looking at

MR. GARCIA: THE COURT: THE WITNESS:

That was No. 17, Your Honor. Okay. And he was not on there.

So on -- you said if you have any questions or

problems, contact Manuel Escobar; is that correct? A. Q. That's right. Okay. Can you explain to the Court how you gave

an opinion, a legal opinion, that Mr. Zazueta is not in good standing when Mr. Escobar did not give his opinion until -- when's the date on this letter? A. Q. June 12th. That's the day after you sent this email; right? MR. GUAJARDO: Objection. That's not what

THE WITNESS: MR. GUAJARDO: THE WITNESS: MR. GUAJARDO:

I didn't give the legal -She said she --- opinion. -- determines membership

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based on her database, Your Honor. legal advice or opinion. MR. GARCIA: objection? MR. GUAJARDO: evidence.

She's not giving a

Again, what is the legal

That it misstates the

That's not what she said. THE COURT: Yes, and it does misstate the

evidence.

You asked her if she -- you asked her if she That's his objection. She didn't

gave a legal opinion. give a legal opinion.

MR. GARCIA: BY MR. GARCIA: Q. gave? A. Q. A. Q. June 12th.

Okay.

What is the date of the legal opinion Mr. Escobar

The day after you sent your emails? Yes. Okay. And so could -- what was the effect of him

giving a legal opinion the day after you had sent out those emails? A. Q. A. Q. A. I -- what was the effect? Yeah, at the national convention? That these councils were placed on hold. They couldn't vote, could they? No.
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Q.

And it would take two-thirds of the assembly to

overturn the legal advisor's opinion; is that correct? A. I believe that's correct. I believe that's

what's in the constitution. Q. All right. Now, let me ask you -- and I want to

remind you you're under oath -- did you ever get orders to shred the original roster? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. No. 7. A. Q. A. Q. A. No. Never? No. Are you sure? I'm sure. I'm going to show you an email. Who is that from? To Joseph Cordero from John Mireles. Who is John Mireles? He's the state director. Okay. And what does it say? Please remind This is Exhibit

[As read] Hello, Cora and Joe.

this is confidential information. this information with anyone.

Please do not share

Keep this information from Thank you.

your councils and shred the other information. Q. A. Q. Okay. Where?

And if you follow -- who is cc'd on that?

At the bottom, where it says Lupe Morales.
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Is

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your address 201 East Main Street, El Paso, Texas? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Uh-huh. Why would they want to shred the original roster? I don't know. Did you -I --- did you tell Mr. -- Cora and Joe Cordero to

shred the original documents? A. Q. A. Q. No, I did not. Did Mr. Escobar instruct them to do that? I don't know. You'd have to ask him. Is that --

But Mr. Mireles did; is that correct? MR. GUAJARDO:

Your Honor, this is -- this This witness did

is -- we're going to call Mr. Mireles. not send this email, and so she -MR. GARCIA: MR. GUAJARDO: can't speak for Mr. Mireles. THE COURT: is from June 7th. It's a string. MR. GARCIA: Let me follow up. THE COURT: Okay. Sustained.

She's listed on it. -- can't say that Mr. -- she

The email from her

The email to Cora and Joe is June 14th.

Well, that's correct.

So there's nothing -- from the

Court's understanding of the email, it doesn't show she
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got the top part. BY MR. GARCIA: Q. A. Q. Did you get the top part? No, no. Okay. Did you know anything about the original

roster being shredded? A. Q. No. Okay. Did Roger Rocha or Oscar Moran ever talk

to you about putting a hold on the Arizona councils? A. advisor. Q. A. Q. Mr. Escobar? That I recall, yes. Okay. And then based on his recommendation, No. I -- I believe that was from the legal

that's when you sent out those emails? A. I believe it was Mr. Wilkes who helped me out

with some of these emails. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Okay. And who is Mr. Wilkes' boss?

He's my boss, Mr. Wilkes. Okay. But who is Mr. Wilkes' boss?

I believe the national board of directors. Would that include Mr. Escobar and Mrs. Moran? Yes, they're board of directors. You said -- did you know Mr. Zazueta? I know Mr. Zazueta.
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Q. A.

How long have you known him? I -- I don't know. He -- I known him since he

was our youth president. LULAC. Q. A.

He was once youth president for

How long ago was that? I can't tell you. I don't know. Maybe like nine

years ago. Q.

I don't -- I really don't know the --

So as far as you know he's been in good standing

for nine years, prior to 2013? A. There were -- there was one year, 2010, where he

also forgot to pay his -- his dues and he was not allowed to vote there as well. Q. Okay. And now did LULAC extend the time to paid

their dues in 2013? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. There was an extension. And so what was the original deadline? It's always February 28th. Okay. And what was it extended to?

I believe April 15th. And a lot of -- a lot of councils came in during

that time period; is that correct? A. Q. Yes. Had several.

And, in fact, you just process applications for You never make an opinion if a council's

the most part?

good or bad for the most part; is that correct?
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A.

Well, I have to -- when I get the council, I make

sure they paid the following year and I have to do those kind of steps, to make sure they're in good standing. Q. Okay. And in this particular case, you assumed

Mr. Zazueta was in good standing until it was brought up to you after the Arizona convention; is that correct? A. Q. Yes, that's correct. Have you ever had to -- in the time that you've

been LULAC exec -- membership -- what is it, director of membership? A. Q. A. Q. A. Director of membership services. Have you ever voided 48 councils? No, I've never had to. First time? First time. MR. GARCIA: Pass the witness.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. So even if they paid their -- their dues at the

extension, they still have to do it 30 days before the convention in order to vote; is that correct? A. days. Q. And these were new charters; correct?
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That is for a new charter, it has to be paid 30

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A. Q.

Uh-huh. So they would have had to have their dues and

everything had to have been corrected 30 days prior to the national convention in Vegas in order to vote as delegates; is that correct? A. That's correct. MR. GUAJARDO: further. MR. GARCIA: questions, Your Honor. THE COURT: first. MR. GARCIA: THE COURT: Oh, I apologize. When you receive an application Well, let me ask my questions Just one -- two follow-up We don't have anything

from a new council, do you check the status of the sponsor when you process the application? THE WITNESS: they are, I usually do. When I don't recognize who

And when I saw Miguel Zazueta's

name, I just -- I know who he is and I thought he was a member in good standing at that time. THE COURT: not check the status. THE WITNESS: actual -- uh-huh. THE COURT: And am I correct, there is no I did not go into the So you -- in this case, you did

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printout of status at the time that these councils applied? THE WITNESS: database. THE COURT: And just want to clarify. Who No. I just go into my

called you after the Arizona convention to tell you about Mr. Zazueta? THE WITNESS: I believe it was -- I can't

recall too good, but I know Miguel Zazueta was one of them, and he wanted to see what he can do to correct -THE COURT: THE WITNESS: THE COURT: Mr. Zazueta was not -THE WITNESS: THE COURT: THE WITNESS: Oh. -- a member in good standing. Mr. Mireles. He had the -- a That's not my question. Oh. Who informed you that

state director is allowed to get a listing of all their members in good standing, and they're the ones who caught it and it was brought to my attention. THE COURT: THE WITNESS: Is he the one that called you? I believe so. I really -- I

don't recall who exactly called me. THE COURT: your office -480.227.4077 www.TAtrans.com TRUAUDIO TRANSCRIBERS, LLC

So the list he gets comes from

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. GARCIA: Q. A. Q. director. And --

THE WITNESS: THE COURT: THE WITNESS:

Yes. -- or is it their own list? No, no. I, as the membership

director, provide -- I can provide the state directors of -- when they're going to have a convention of -- a list of members in good standing. THE COURT: THE WITNESS: Is that routine process? It depends on the -- on the

Not all of them require it or request it.

THE COURT:

So with states that don't

request it, are they just going on their own memory? THE WITNESS: THE COURT: MR. GARCIA: Yes, uh-huh. Okay. Any follow-up?

Yes, Your Honor.

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION

Can you turn to Exhibit 25, please. This, uh-huh. Yes. Can you go through it real quick, please.

I'm going to ask you if you recognize those money orders or receipts. A. I believe the 306 is what they paid national.
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don't recognize -Q. And these were the money orders that you received

from the Arizona delegations and you accepted that money; is that correct? A. Q. That's correct, uh-huh. And you have these -- and you keep these receipts

and money orders in the normal course and scope of business; is that correct? A. Q. Yes. And when you -- you issued charters to these 48

councils; is that right? A. Q. Yes, I did. Originally. And -- and if you'll go to the -- the -- 1 and 2 of Exhibit 25, it says that all these councils paid approximately $18,084 in dues. A. Q. A. Uh-huh, yes. Did you ever refund them their money? No. THE COURT: THE WITNESS: BY MR. GARCIA: Q. So even though all these councils were not That was a no? No. Do you see that?

allowed to participate or vote and you revoked their charters, why didn't anybody from the national council
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ever say -- reimburse these councils their $18,000? A. I don't know. They weren't revoked. They were

put on hold.

I didn't revoke them.

They were put on hold

by the national board. their money back.

I don't know why they didn't get

I was not instructed to give them their

money back, so I did not give them their money. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. You keep the money? No. I'm not the fiscal officer.

Who keeps the money? The fiscal officer. Who is the treasurer of LULAC, national LULAC? Right now it's Maggie Rivera. And who was it back in -- in Las Vegas? Roger Rocha. And Roger Rocha was the elections judge that day? I believe he was. At the convention? I believe he was. Okay. And as of today, none of this $18,000 has

been returned to any of the LULAC councils, to your knowledge? A. Not to my knowledge. MR. GARCIA: I'd ask that Exhibit 25 be It's been proved up

admitted, at this time, Your Honor. by custodian of records.

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MR. GUAJARDO: proven up, Your Honor.

I'm not sure that it's been

I think she said that the money

order corresponded to $306, that pertain to a fee, but it doesn't corroborate -THE COURT: Exhibit 25 -- Exhibit 25 is

admitted for purposes of showing payment only. MR. GARCIA: witness, Your Honor. THE COURT: Any follow-up, Mr. Guajardo? Yes. I have nothing further of this

MR. GUAJARDO:

FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. Ms. Morales, when you discover an error, that an

error has been made in improperly chartering a new council, do you ignore the mistake or do you try to correct it? A. Q. No, I try to correct it. All right. And as far as the refund of the

money, you wouldn't handle that, so you don't know if the money is being placed on hold until the litigation's resolved, do you? A. Q. A. I don't -That's somebody else's job? -- take care of anything, right.
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I don't handle

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no fiscal. Q. So if the money's to be refunded based upon the

outcome of this case, that would be determined by someone else? A. Q. Yes, not by me. And did anyone, either Miguel Zazueta or any of Did

these individuals ask that their money be refunded? they ever send you anything like that? A. I don't recall.

No -- and if they -- if they

would, I wouldn't be the one. Q. A. Q. A. Q. refunded? A. Q. No, I don't think I have, huh-uh. And do you know if Miguel Zazueta is a member in Okay. To say yes or no. Did you get anything from them saying -I don't recall. -- oh, I want my money back because I want it

good standing today? A. Q. A. As of today, he's not. He's not? I don't believe he. MR. GUAJARDO: MR. GARCIA: THE COURT: Nothing further, Your Honor. I have nothing further. What's the current status of

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these councils? THE WITNESS: THE COURT: hold? THE WITNESS: they're not on hold. THE COURT: THE WITNESS: MR. GUAJARDO: Your Honor. MR. ESCOBAR: THE COURT: I'll get her. Please come forward. Come stand You may step down. Thank you. I would call Caro Muñoz, Yes. I have not been told Excuse me. Are these councils still on

in front of my clerk here, in front of the exhibit table over here. COURT OFFICER: for me, please. THE WITNESS: COURT OFFICER: THE WITNESS: Muñoz, M-U-N-O-Z. COURT OFFICER: Thank you. Spell it? Please. C-A-R-O-L-I-N-A, Carolina. Would you spell your name

(The witness was sworn. ) THE COURT: Step around behind the podium.

You're going to go up the ramp over here and you're going to going to end up on my left in this chair.
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It's an

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obstacle course.

Make yourself comfortable. Thank you.

THE WITNESS:

CAROLINA MUÑOZ, a witness herein, having been first duly sworn to speak the truth and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. A. Q. A. Q. Would you please state your full name. Carolina Muñoz. And do they call you "Caro" sometimes? Sometimes. I'll just call you Ms. Muñoz. Ms. Muñoz, how

long have you been with LULAC? A. Q. years? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. National fiscal officer. And what administrations have you served under? Do you want the names of the presidents or -If you remember. Of course. Okay. What national presidents?
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About 20 years. In what capacities have you served doing those 20

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A. years. years. Q.

Belen Robles, four years. Héctor Flores, four years.

Rick Dovalina, four Rosa Rosales, four

And now almost four years with Margaret Moran. All right. What is your role at -- for example,

the national convention in LULAC, that they just had in Las Vegas. A. Q. Registration. Okay. And as part of registration, do you also

have to do blocking of rooms for the hotel and so forth? A. That is totally different, but, yes, I do work on

the room block. Q. And what is the reason that you do that with the Is there any particular reason why

hotel, to block rooms?

that would have to be done? A. Yes. I'm part of the planning committee, and as

such we contract with the hotel for a certain number of room nights. So I started out reserving rooms for our

board members, our staff, and other personnel, sister entities. And then it just kept on -- I would take care We call them sub blocks.

of the sub blocks. Q. A. Q. All right.

So within our block, we have sub blocks. Okay. Just to give the Court an idea of how

accurate you can be, for example, did you handle the Cincinnati convention?
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A. Q.

Yes. How many -- how many rooms were you off when you

ultimately calculated the block that you committed with the hotel? A. I committed for my own block, not including any

of the sub blocks, I think I was off a room night -- a room. Q. A. Q. A. Q. So just one room? Right, and that was with the Hilton. Okay. In Cincinnati. And this blocking, is that also done to assist

the members in order to facilitate getting hotel rooms? A. Correct. They ask me for assistance, I provide

Q.

And the reason that -- that helps the members is

because they're entitled to certain room rates because of convention rates; is that correct? A. Q. Correct. Did you assist Cora Esquivel and -- and her --

her group -A. Q. A. Q. Yes. -- to get blocks for the rooms? Yes. Does LULAC national pay for any of these rooms?
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A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q.

For Ms. Esquivel's. For -- for Cora or anybody else? Well, we paid for our own. For your own staff? But not -- not -- none of the sub blocks. Okay. LULAC pays for its staff, its paid staff?

For staff and board, uh-huh. Okay. But you don't pay for the other -- just

the general? A. No. The other sub blocks, no. I coordinate it.

I make arrangements, but then it's totally -- and it's made very clear to the hotel. what other people pay, so ... Q. So when you assisted Cora Esquivel and her people For me, what I pay, and

to obtain the blocks that their rooms, it was -- were you committing or binding the national LULAC office to pay for these rooms? A. Q. No, not at all. Did you do that for Domingo Garcia's people if

they had -- or how -- how would they make their blocks? A. He -- we had a -- an overflow hotel, other than

Caesars, and that was the Flamingo hotel, and I believe that he contacted the hotel and asked for a sub block because he was a regular LULAC member, so he was entitled to that. And he didn't ask for my assistance, but I would
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have provided it. BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. Okay.

But he didn't ask me.

And were there a lot of people attending

the convention, that stayed at these hotels? A. Q. average? A. Q. A. Q. Attending the convention or utilizing -Attending the convention --- the rooms? -- that needed rooms, that -- not national, just Yes. How many would you estimate? I mean, just

delegates, but everybody who -A. Oh, my goodness, I don't really remember the I know we had about -- a contract for maybe

exact number.

about 4,000 room nights, so -- but I don't -- I -- I don't remember the exact number. Q. All right. So the individual that obligates

themselves when they -- when they make -- when they register with the hotel, they have to put up a credit card or somebody else has to pay for that room; correct? A. Q. Correct. Did you ever talk to Cora Esquivel personally

with regards to these block of rooms that you were helping -A. She contacted me.
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Q. A.

How did she contact you? She called me on a Sunday afternoon on my cell.

I believe she was arriving on Tuesday and she told me she had contacted the hotel to confirm her reservations and -and they didn't have any. on it. And I -- I did. So I said, well, let me check And I said, I -- I called, talked

to my contact at the hotel, and I said I have this lady that needs this many rooms, can you set them aside. she said, yes, because they usually do. And

And if we have

the availability, we need to tie down the -- the rooms, so we can meet our obligation. And I said, just put them down as Juan, Cora, two, user names. names for you. But by tomorrow, I will have the So then I

And the hotel said fine.

answered by email.

I never talked to her -- after that, I

never talked to her on the phone. Q. A. So you sent her an email to follow up? Yes. And I said, all this has been taken care And the It

of, but I need the rooms before 4 p.m. tomorrow.

next day, I did get an email and it was not from her. was -- I don't recall the name of the gentleman. know who he was.

I don't

And he sent me the list of -- I believe

it was like for 15 rooms, and I just forwarded that to the hotel. So they would change -- they would have a name for And then I told her I -- you know, she
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could call and they would be confirmed. extent. Q.

And that was

In order to bind national LULAC, are you aware of

whether or not that has to be approved by national LULAC executive committee or the board in advance, if, in fact -A. Q. Bind them? If you -- you don't -- you cannot obligate the

national LULAC office; right? A. Q. No. Okay. But if there is a proper procedure, that

would have to go through the appropriate LULAC national office or -- or the body that would be in charge of doing that? A. Q. That's not your operation; correct? No. Were you aware that Cora was demanding money

because of -- that she was told that their rooms were going to be paid and expenses, like vans and all that was going to be paid for? A. I -- I -- no, I never had that conversation. I

don't recall having that conversation with Ms. Esquivel. MR. GUAJARDO: Your Honor. MR. GARCIA: Your Honor.
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We pass the witness,

May I approach the Elmo,

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THE COURT:

Yes, you may.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

Hello. Hi. Can you tell the -- this is from Exhibit No. 11.

Can you tell the Court who Luis Vera is? A. He -- he's our legal -- part of your legal

counsel team. Q. Is he the -- also a fellow -- a LULAC national

council, along with Mr. Escobar? A. Q. Yes. Okay. And does he have the authority to pay for

delegates to go to Vegas for the convention? A. If he says he's going to pay and the hotel deals

with him, I -- I suppose he -- I suppose he has the authority to pay, to have -Q. So were LULAC funds used to pay for, in this

case, renting cars for Cora Esquivel's delegates, specifically a lady named Rebecca Losoya [phonetic]? you aware of that, as the chief financial officer of national LULAC? A. No. No, I don't believe we paid for that, for Were

rental cars.
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Q.

Okay.

Did you -- do you know if Mr. Vera had the

LULAC national credit card to get people to go down to -to Las Vegas? A. Mr. Vera does not hold a credit card -- a

national -- LULAC national credit card. Q. Okay. So do you know, even though he has -- have

listed in his title, do you know where the money came from to pay for these rental cars? A. Q. Oh, I -- I don't have any idea. Okay. Did you handle credentialing at the -- at

the national convention? A. Q. A. Q. No. That's total separate department.

What did you do at the national convention? The registration. I'm sorry. So did you register the Arizona

delegates who came? A. I personally, I'm not there at the computers.

But we registered everybody that attended the convention. Q. And here the delegates that were not seated, were

they all allowed to register? A. That is not a question that I can answer,

Mr. Garcia, because I am -- I am not there -- I don't know if they were allowed or not allowed at the time. Q. What was the registration for the convention?

What was the cost to register at the convention?
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A.

Well, if you're just there to vote, it's $20.

If

you're there to participate in the full week's activities, the packet was like 300 and -- no. several categories. Q. Okay. 250, I believe. 200 and -- there's

So let's just assume, if you had 148

people that were allowed to register to vote, times $20; is that correct? A. Q. A. That's correct. How much would that come out to? Oh, 200 and -- you take 148 times 20. Did you do the math? Okay. I don't

have a calculator. Q.

I didn't.

Oh, you didn't.

I'm actually doing it

right now. THE COURT: MR. GARCIA: THE COURT: BY MR. GARCIA: Q. A. Q. $2,960. Correct, uh-huh. Okay. You were there at the -- the day -- how Just because the judge wasn't 296. Huh? $2,960.

long was registration?

there, how long did people have to wait to register? A. It all depends what time they were there and what Registration opens the first day of the Could

day of the week.

convention, I believe in this case it was Tuesday.
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have been Monday, because sometimes we alternate.

And

we're there from 7 o'clock in the morning until 5:00 every day of the week. Q. Let's be more specific. On Friday, the day

before the voting convention, how long did it take -- how long were the lines? A. On Friday, they -- they might have been very

long, but we -- we don't take long in processing the -the delegates. what time -Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. If people were --- you're talking about. Did people wait 2 or 3 hours to register? No. For the convention? No, no, no, no, no. Okay. Were there two types of registration, one It all depends how close to 5:00 and at

for -- that was at -- where the registration tables were and another one at -- what was the name -- the Senate Room? A. Q. A. No. Where they had credentials? No, no, no. Because the registration is on a

network and we have a server and we have several computers. And in order to have everything in a database,
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it has to run through that network.

So it's set up like

that, and so we can't have anything removed. Q. A. Q. At the convention, did you go to the Senate Room? Senate Room? No, sir.

Do you know a room where Mr. Escobar and

Ms. Moran and all them, kind of had their headquarters. Do you remember that room? A. We have -- excuse me. THE COURT: MR. GARCIA: THE WITNESS: MR. GARCIA: THE COURT: THE WITNESS: Yes. Yeah, let me. No. I have a bottle here. Can I get some water?

Oh, okay. We've got one too. We have different rooms We had a command center,

assigned for different purposes.

where we all -- you know, the staff works and Ms. Moran would direct people and so -BY MR. GARCIA: Q. A. Q. Where was the command center at? That was the Capri Room. Okay. And was there a computer there that was

connected to the registration? A. Oh, no. Well, there are computers there. But

they're there for different purposes. connected to registration.
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But not -- nobody's

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Q.

Well, there was testimony earlier from another

witness who said that a lot of delegates, if they were not for Ms. Moran, they had to kind of wait at the regular registration. But, for example, the Puerto Rican

delegation just went to this command center, and they got all their delegate badges all in one group. A. Q. A. No. Do you know anything about that? Well, I don't know about that rumor, but I know

they couldn't have gone to another place to collect their registrations. THE COURT: THE WITNESS: Could not have gone? No, because the process for a

delegate is they have to go before a computer that has a camera, and you're all very well aware that there's only, I believe, two of them. anywhere else. And you don't see those cameras

So there's no other way that a delegate

could go somewhere else. BY MR. GARCIA: Q. that at? A. The credentials, unfortunately, was next to us. What about to get the credentials? Where was

And I say "unfortunately," because it got to a point where it was very congested. It was running kind of parallel. Our

We were like here, and credentials was on the side.
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lines were running this way. that way. Q.

Credentials were running

And they were there on the same -So if credentials were given to the Puerto Rican

delegation, you wouldn't have personal knowledge of that? A. Q. Credentials? Well, no, not credentials.

That was -- you just were in charge of

registration, collecting the money? A. Q. badges? A. Correct, uh-huh. MR. GARCIA: Pass the witness, Your Honor. Correct. And the credentials were handing out the delegate

REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. Can anybody register just to attend the

convention without having to be a delegate? A. Q. Right, yes. Does that happen often, when family accompanies

other members that are attending, the whole family may go -A. We have -- right. We have people that want to

register and pay the $20 because that way, they want -they want to have a badge and they -- they can go with that badge and they can enter the exhibit area.
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Of

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course, the exhibit area in our case is open to anybody. But some people are accustomed to being able to have the badge in order to go. And they can also go free to the And people pay the $20 -- and

seminars, the workshops.

they pay the $20 for the badge and then that entitles them to a badge and to a program. Because we can't afford to

give programs, the kind we give the delegates and everybody just to everybody. So, yes, we have people that pay the $20 just -- just to be a part of the convention. Q. Okay. Did Margaret Moran's people, if you want

to put it that way, did they get preferential treatment in registration? A. No. Or how did that get processed? No one -- no one did. Of course, if people

preregister, it's easier, because everything's already in the computer. when they go -Q. Well, even if you preregister, you still have to It's on a first-come, first-serve basis

stand in line to get your tickets -A. Q. A. Q. Yes. -- and your packet and everything else; correct? Right, right. So there's still going to be a waiting line in

the registration area? A. Correct. And the picture. Remember, if you're a

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delegate, you still have to come to us so we can take your picture. Q. All right. MR. GUAJARDO: Your Honor. MR. GARCIA: THE COURT: No further, Your Honor. For people that paid their $20 We have nothing further,

but were not delegates, was there an observation area for them? THE WITNESS: THE COURT: THE WITNESS: talking about Saturday? THE COURT: THE WITNESS: Yes. Where the business is held? At -- at -At the convention. At the assembly, you're

They usually are not interested in that. THE COURT: THE WITNESS: an observation area. THE COURT: Is there any way someone can For Well, that's not my question. No, I don't believe there was

expedite the registration process for someone?

example, could a national officer bring a group of registrations to the registration table to expedite them? THE WITNESS: When it's early in the day and They -- they

there's -- and they're not delegates, no.
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can bring us the information, but the delegate himself or herself has to be there because of the picture. THE COURT: But could they preregister them

so that all they have to do with you is the picture? THE WITNESS: online. THE COURT: THE WITNESS: THE COURT: Okay. Yes. Did it happen that anybody would For Well, there's preregistration

come to try to expedite the process for anybody? registration. THE WITNESS:

Personally, I don't recall.

But I -- I was not a hundred percent there all the time. But it does not happen. THE COURT: I know it doesn't happen. Now you testified that you

handled registration, but you were not at the computers. So you've got to tell me what you mean when you say you handled registration. process? THE WITNESS: Correct, uh-huh. I have to Were you just in charge of the

make sure that everybody's doing what they're supposed to be doing. being paid. THE COURT: actual registering?
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And then we have the cashier collecting what's

But you're not there doing the

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THE WITNESS: THE COURT: MR. GARCIA: THE COURT:

No, not in the computer. Any follow-up? None from me. Mr. Guajardo?

FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. Ms. Muñoz, it's fair to say that you weren't

inside where the National Assembly was when all the delegates were being seated and the voting was going on? You're at -- you're in another area; correct? A. For this particular assembly, we -- we were

brought in and we were -- we were on the staff side. Q. Okay. Were you inside the same area where the

convention business was being conducted? A. Yes. But not within the -- the divided area Some of the staff Me

where all the delegates were seated.

was behind, by Brent's, our executive director's side. and Guadalupe were sitting on the side in case --

especially Lupe, who does all this, in case we're needed. And so -- but it -- in reference to Your Honor, it's not an observation area. because we're staff. Q. So if I was sitting in an observation area in the We were there

back where the delegates are not seated, would that be
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considered an observation area, if you're allowed just sitting in the back, where there's nobody actually sitting as a delegate? A. Q. A. I'm sorry, but I -How about if I had my VIP badge on? I don't know if there was such a thing, to be

quite honest with you, I'm sorry. Q. Okay. All right. So that wouldn't be your job,

to -- to assure that there was or was not an observation area? A. Q. A. Oh, no. That would be somebody else's job? Right. MR. GUAJARDO: Your Honor. THE COURT: Do you know if Mr. Moran paid Okay. Nothing further,

for any registration or hotel rooms or rental cars? THE WITNESS: THE COURT: Any? Did Mr. Moran pay anybody's

registration, hotel rooms, or rental cars, that you know of? THE WITNESS: directly to the hotel. He -- they might have paid

Like I said, I arranged sub

blocks, but then payment and all their obligations are handled.
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. GARCIA: Q. know.

THE COURT: pay someone else's -THE WITNESS: THE COURT: THE WITNESS: THE COURT:

So it's possible for someone to

Oh yes. -- hotel registration. Yes. Does that happen, or do you

THE WITNESS: THE COURT:

Yes. Okay. Any follow-up on that?

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION

Do you know if any LULAC dollars were spent to

reserve blocks of rooms at Caesars Palace? A. Q. A. Q. No. Can you rephrase your question? You're the chief financial officer?

Did -- yeah.

Right, right, uh-huh. So were any checks cut to Caesars Palace to

reserve blocks of room? A. We have to pay for contract a deposit on any Say Caesars, now New York Hilton. It's not meant to be -- to That's part of the So we

hotel that we go to.

But it's considered a deposit.

reserve a certain number of rooms. contract.

The lodging, the audiovisual, the meals.

do pay in advance big deposits.
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Q.

And how many rooms -- did you reserve all of

Caesars Palace with LULAC funds, deposit? A. Well, the deposit was -- is a deposit on all the

expenses that that were going to be incurred throughout the convention. Q. A. How much -- how big was the deposit? I think the first one was 125 -- I believe it was It was 50,000, and then 125, I think.

like -- no. Q.

And these were LULAC funds that come from federal

and foundation sources; is that correct? A. No. This -- this is LULAC funds that --

convention funds. Q. A. Where does the money come from? Conventions that have -- in the past made a

profit and if we settle with a host and everything, that goes into an account that we use for an operating account for another -- a convention -- a future convention, next year's convention, let's say that. Q. And did Ms. Moran and Brent Wilkes control the --

the book -- the books -- the booking of rooms at the -- at Caesars? A. Q. A. Q. No. I wouldn't say control, no.

What word would you use? Pardon me? What word would you use?
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A.

Well, I would say I had more control on the rooms We just need We need to

than Brent and Ms. Moran -- Mrs. Moran did. to make sure we contract so many room nights. make sure that they're all utilized somehow. Q.

Do you recall the Arizona delegation was sent off

to the Flamingo and adjacent hotel because they could not get rooms at Caesars? A. I thought that was their preference. I don't -I thought

I don't know why they stayed at the Flamingo. that's where they wanted to be. MR. GARCIA: THE COURT:

Pass the witness, Your Honor. Any follow-up? Nothing further, Your Honor.

MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT: this works.

Just -- I got to understand how

You pay deposits because if you miss on your

room nights, you have to pay -THE WITNESS: THE COURT: THE WITNESS: THE COURT: correct? THE WITNESS: THE COURT: THE WITNESS: Uh-huh. Okay. That's why I want to make sure Attrition. -- for the rooms. Uh-huh. And it can be expensive;

that every room is utilized, and they come to me.
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THE COURT: THE WITNESS:

Thank you. Thank you.

You may step down.

MR. GUAJARDO: Rocha, Your Honor. THE COURT:

We're going to call Roger

Okay.

Watch your step. Mr. Rocha, please just come straight up the middle here and come stand in front of my clerk in front of the exhibit table and she'll swear you in. THE WITNESS: COURT OFFICER: the record, please. THE WITNESS: COURT OFFICER: THE WITNESS: COURT OFFICER: THE WITNESS: Yes. R-O-G-E-R. Yes, sir. Please spell your name for

Uh-huh. Middle initial C. Uh-huh. Last name Rocha, R-O-C-H-A,

COURT OFFICER:

Thank you.

(The witness was sworn.) THE COURT: Please step behind the podium.

You're going to walk up the ramp over there and end up on my left. Watch your step, please.

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Jr. Q. A. BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. A.

ROGER C. ROCHA, JR., a witness herein, having been first duly sworn to speak the truth and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION

Could you please state your full name, sir. Yes. Roger, middle initial C., last name Rocha,

Rocha, what is your educational background? I have a bachelor's degree in arts and science,

and I have a master's in business administration from Texas A & M International University. Q. A. years. Q. And what are some of the offices that you've held And how long have you been involved with LULAC? Involved in LULAC, I would say roughly about 25

in the past in LULAC? A. I've held position of council parliamentarian,

district director, state parliamentarian, deputy state director for the state of Texas, state director for the state of Texas, past national treasurer. Currently serve

as the senior advisor to the national president. Q. And did you serve any particular role or function
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at the LULAC national convention in Las Vegas this last year? A. Q. Yes, sir, I served as the election judge. And what are some of the duties of the -- that

you -- that you did as the election judge for the national convention? A. The duties for the election judge are pretty It's to oversee the elections that are

straightforward.

conducted during the convention to elect the officers for the upcoming year. Q. And did you have any other assistants that would

assist you in your role as election judge? A. Yes. Per the rules in the constitutional, there

are three official counters that assist in verifying the outcome of elections, and those are the only individuals that I, as election judge, would refer to. See, the -- any candidate as the right to appoint counters. Q. All right. Who were your -- your three counters,

if you remember their names? A. Yes. It was Ana Olivares [phonetic]. It was

Dr. Nicholas Adame [phonetic] and Mr. Richard Roibo [phonetic]. Q. Where were these counters situated in regards to

where you were and where the delegates were seated?
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A.

Sure.

If I'm just going to illustrate using my

hands, Your Honor, if that's okay. THE COURT: THE WITNESS: THE COURT: Yes, you may. If this is -Just remember that your hands

aren't on the record, so ... THE WITNESS: If -- as I'm sitting here

today, if this is the podium from where the microphone is and I'm looking at the delegation, as I'm looking at the members of the court here today, the counters were behind me on another level. So their vantage point looking down

at the delegation was at least, I would say, two feet higher than -- or their view was two feet higher than mine was. BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. And where were you standing or sitting? Were you

up at the front? A. Q. A. I was at the podium all the time, sir. And where is that podium situated? The podium is situated in the middle of the

stage, which would be directly in front of all the delegation. Q. A. And is that a raised stage and how high? Yes. It's a raised stage. I would say whatever About 5 feet, maybe 3

the standard is for a raised stage.

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to 5 feet when you walk up the stage.

And then let's say

the counters behind me were maybe another 1 or 2 feet, you know, -Q. A. Q. Higher on the stage? -- on the next platform, if you would. All right. Where -- was there more than one

microphone? A. Q. A. Q. On the podium, there's only one microphone, sir. Were there any microphones out in the audience? Yes, sir. There are two.

Did -- was there -- was there an official

timekeeper as well? A. Q. A. Yes, sir, there was. And do you remember who that was? That was Mr. -- I don't remember his first name, It's Mr. Sansoris

but I can tell you his last name. [phonetic]. Q. keeper? A. All right.

And what is the role of the time

The timer is, just that, to keep the time, that

is the time that's allotted to -- whether it's a candidate that has time to speak or people speaking on behalf of a candidate, or people speaking in behalf or against a particular motion or resolution or a constitutional amendment.
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So that timekeeper will pretty much signal the individual, you have 1 minute left, you have 2 minutes, et cetera. So he counts them down, and he

advises them how much time they have left. Q. All right. Let me -- may I approach, Your Honor? Yes, you may.

THE COURT: BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q.

Let me show you Exhibit 14 in evidence.

And

would you identify that document, sir. A. Yes, sir. This is the 2013 LULAC national

convention rules. Q. And do you know how that document got to be the Is there a procedure for that? The procedure is that the rules are

convention rules? A. Yes, sir.

presented before the national board of directors during the February meeting, board meeting that's held. They go Once

over the rules and they adopt the convention rules.

that is done, those rules are published, so in the LULAC news, and they are sent out to all councils. During the convention, they will also get a copy of these rules in their registration packet. Furthermore, once these rules are distributed during the election process, they are read individually. And what I

mean individually, each rule to the membership, because if one -- if a member has a problem with a rule, they can
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challenge that rule. it or not. Q. A. Q.

So the membership can vote to change

Did anyone challenge the rules? No, sir. Did the National Assembly at the LULAC national

convention adopt these as the local -- as the rules for the national -A. Q. Yes, sir, that is correct. Let me direct your attention to specifically on

that exhibit, paragraph number 5, would you read that. A. Sure. Elections shall be by standup, show of The head of each delegation

hands, or roll call vote.

shall announce his or her council's vote, and the election judge shall repeat the vote to the floor. Q. A. Q. A. All right. Yes, sir. And how was it followed? What method was used? Was that rule followed?

When we do the credentialing of -- of delegates, And the way we use

each council is called out by name.

the terminology of name, they will go by alphabetical order, by the state. So let's say Arkansas, they'll go by

the council number and they will certify the delegation. They will stand up and certify those delegates. will go through the entire process. report is adopted.
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And that

And then -- that

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Once that is adopted, when we move to the voting procedure, then you will have a standup with your -- you know, standup vote with your hand raised. Or

we can go to ballot voting, but in this case ballot voting was not one of the things that -- that was optioned for. See, when I did the election, when I was up there on the podium, I explained to the candidates, we're going to do a show of hands, but a standup vote. Because when you're on

the podium, you get to see everything in a panoramic setting, in a panoramic view, as opposed to someone that's seeing you eye to eye, because they can't really see towards the back, Your Honor. So at the vantage point that I have, if you're just sitting down raising your hand, you can't tell really who's doing it. So traditionally what we've done

is, we have a standup vote and people raise their hand. Q. And what is the role or the purpose of the three

counters that were assisting you? A. The role of the three counters is to verify the If we're doing a standup vote

results of the election.

with your hands raised, then the counter -- I will look at it, and then I will turn around to the counters and say, this is how I see the election. So I will confer with them. Do you agree or disagree?

There are three counters, so

the majority of that will go -- you know, will rule.
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Q.

And so with the counters on each of these

elections for the various offices, did you consult with your counters on each of these? A. Q. A. Q. On each one, sir. And did they confer with the result? Yes, they did. Direct your attention to paragraph 12 of

Exhibit 14, again. A. Q. A. Yes, sir. And would you read that for the Court, please. Yes, sir. [As read] Challenges to any election

must be issued to the national legal advisor immediately upon the outcome -- after the outcome is announced and before another election has begun. It shall take

two-thirds to overturn -- two-thirds vote to overturn any ruling made by the national legal advisor. Q. Is there a procedure whereby someone who

disagrees with the -- the outcome of the election or that they saw the election differently, for them to call for -or make a motion for -- or roll call vote? A. No. That -- that's -- that type of a motion

would be out of the order. Q. So what would be the proper way to challenge the

election, if it was supposedly close or they disagreed with the counters?
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A.

Sure.

Specifically the way -- line item, what I If you look at the

just read.

That is the procedure.

second -- if you look at that paragraph, any candidate that wants to challenge an election has to go to the national legal advisor. The national legal advisor will

render his opinion whether to uphold or deny a recount. If -Q. you -A. Q. A. Yes, sir, that is correct, he was. And who was that, sir? It is the gentleman sitting next to you, And was the national legal advisor present with

Mr. Escobar. Q. Mr. Escobar. And how far away were you sitting from -from where -A. He was sitting approximately -- there was one

individual next to me and he was immediately after that individual. Q. And did he remain on the stage next to you the

entire time during the election? A. Q. Yes, sir, he did. Did anyone approach or ask Mr. Escobar for a

legal opinion because there were challenging any of the election process, either the election result or any other
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part of the -A. There was one who was a candidate that ran for

national president that asked that -- the election -- she challenged the election, and that was Ms. Mary Ramos. Q. She challenged the election against because she

was running for national president against Margaret Moran; correct? A. Q. That is correct. And was that a proper challenge? Did she --

what -- what did she tell you, I'm challenging? A. She wanted a challenge vote. And I directed her

that she needed to go to the legal advisor. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. And did she, in fact, do that? She went. She was denied.

Did -- then what happened after that? After that, she got off stage. Okay. She didn't ask for the National Assembly?

No, sir. Was there any particular motion made to seat the

Arizona delegation that had been denied certification as delegates? A. Yes, sir. At the very beginning, there was a Not

request to have certain councils from Arizona seated.

the entire delegation, because some of them were already seated. Just a certain number of councils that were
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requesting to be seated.

I had that conversation with

those individuals prior to the election, that they would be allowed to go in there and have the assembly listen to their plea to be certified. Q. What did you tell them exactly as to what the

procedure was? A. I instructed them that the procedure was going to

be, if there's a challenge to it, I will give them the ample time to make their case to the assembly. If the

assembly overturns the national legal advisor's opinion by two-thirds of the National Assembly, then they would be allowed to number one, register as delegates, and then they would have to be credentialed and certified as delegates. Q. Did they have a speaker that spoke on behalf of

their motion? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yes, sir, they did. Do you remember who that was? That gentleman sitting in the back. Mr. Soto? Yes, sir, Mr. Soto. Did anyone attempt to prevent him from being able

to give his speech on behalf of that -A. Q. No, sir. Is he the one that you instructed on about the
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procedure to be used? A. Q. Yes. And what was the result of that particular action

by the National Assembly with regards to the request to seat that delegation that had not been seated. A. When the motion was made, it would have taken The National Assembly voted no. No to

two-thirds. over -Q. say -A. Q. A. Q.

And was it even close, in terms of you would

No, sir. -- oh, it was very close? No, sir, not at all. What did the official counters find, if you can

just give us a -- your observation? A. My observation, you were looking at -- if you

look at the total amount of delegates that were -two-thirds would be over a thousand delegates. And

they -- there was no a thousand delegates that said let's overturn the national legal advisor's opinion. MR. GARCIA: BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. Well, do you remember how many total there were, Object. Nonresponsive.

delegates? A. If I'm -- going by memory, there was about 1,600.
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Q. correct? A. Q. A. Q.

So they would have needed two-thirds of 1,600,

Correct. And did they have anywhere near two-thirds -No, sir, they did not. And if anyone disagreed with the method, either

standup or show of hands or any other method for conducting the election, what would be the remedy for them at that point as well? again? A. Yes, sir, that would be correct. The only ones Do they have to follow Number 12

that would be -- that would apply to would be the candidates. Q. Okay. So they would have -- they would have to

challenge it by going to the legal advisor? A. Q. That is correct. And if the legal advisor says, no, I don't agree

with you, then, again, it goes to the National Assembly again for two-thirds vote; correct? A. Q. Correct. Do you recall whether or not Domingo Garcia

withdrew his candidacy? A. Q. Yes, sir, I do recall, and, yes, he did. Did you give him a chance to -- to make a

concession speech or give his side of the story?
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A. Q. A.

Yes, sir, he was. How much time did you give him, if you recall? If I'm not mistaken, he spoke between 5 to He -- I -- I gave him the courtesy to go ahead

7 minutes.

and speak and -- and say what he wanted to to the assembly. Q. speaking? A. Q. A. No, sir. All right. And what did he say, if you recall? Did anybody mute the button to keep him from

As memory serves, he stated that he was He

withdrawing his candidacy for national president.

realized that he didn't have the two-thirds to overcome the national legal advisor's opinion on his eligibility, and there -- after that, he went on to talk about some of the issues that the Latino community was facing and how we had to come together as an organization to -- to address those issues. MR. GUAJARDO: Pass the witness, Your Honor.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. GARCIA: Q. Mr. Rocha, who appointed you as the election

judge at the national convention? A. President Margaret Moran.
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Q. A. Q.

And did you support her candidacy? Yes, I did. Okay. And what position did you have at the time

of the national convention in Las Vegas? A. Q. I was the outgoing national treasurer. At the -- at the convention, there was a motion

made to allow the Arizona delegation to be seated; is that correct? A. That -- that is correct, to be seated as

delegates. Q. And if -- if there had not been a ruling by

the -- the national legal advisor that they were not eligible, how many votes would it have taken to -- to have allowed them to be seated? A. Q. Simple majority, 50 plus one. But when there's a legal advisor's opinion under

this Rule 12, how many votes did it take? A. Q. Two-thirds. Okay. And when the vote was taken to allow --

whether to seat the Arizona delegation or not, what was the count, how many were for, how many were against, I want the exact numbers. A. Q. A. Cannot give you the exact numbers, counselor. Why? Because it was a standup vote.
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Q. A.

Okay. And if you look at -- again, doing a standup

vote, and you know that your number is two-thirds, and being that the voting area was sectioned off into three sections, when you see that literally two sections and a half stand up against. Q. A. Uh-huh. So when you look, when you ask for an exact

count, I couldn't give you. Q. A. Q. There was no vote taken, was there? Yes, there was. Well, under -- I'm going to go under the Rule 5,

elections shall be held by standup vote -- is that anywhere in the constitution? A. Q. A. Q. Yes, sir, it is. Where? Under elections. When I looked under election, it says voting in

national elections shall be by roll call? A. Q. Uh-huh. This is Section 5, number (d), a show of hands,

or a secret ballot. Was there a roll call vote? A. Q. There was to roll call vote. Was there a secret ballot?
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A. Q. hands -A. Q. right? A. Q.

None. Okay. So the only thing we have was a show of

Via standup voted. -- and -- okay. And this was a standup vote;

Yes, sir, that's correct. Now, according to Rule 5, can you go there,

please, on Exhibit No. 14. A. Q. Yes, sir. It says the election shall be by standup, show of The head of each delegation

hands or roll call vote.

shall announce his or her council's vote. Did you, as the election judge, on the question of whether Arizona should be seated or not, go down the delegation, Arizona, you know, Utah, how many for and how many against, did you do that? A. This rule does not apply to that. This rule is

directly for elections. MR. GARCIA: BY MR. GARCIA: Q. A. Did you do that? No, because that -MR. GUAJARDO: Your Honor, he asked -- he Objection, nonresponsive.

was asking if it applied in regards to that, and he said
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no. THE WITNESS: THE COURT: it. Doesn't apply. Overruled. He asked if you did

He didn't ask if it applied. MR. GUAJARDO: Okay.

BY MR. GARCIA: Q. A. Q. Did you do it? Can you restate your question. Did you do a state roll call vote as outlined in

Number 5 on how many were for letting Arizona be seated, how many were against? A. Q. No, because it wasn't an election. It was a vote on a -- on whether to seat them or

not, wasn't it? A. There is a difference, counselor, between the And this So an

election of a candidate and regular business. would have been business before an assembly. election rule does not apply. Q. All right.

So -- so who made up -- so who made

up -- so what rule -- where does your rule -- where do we find that? A. We follow -- we follow -- and if you look at the

national constitution, anything not covered in the national constitution, we fall back on, as an organization, to Robert's Rules of Order.
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Q.

Okay.

So if somebody under Robert's Rules of

Order, if somebody calls for a roll call vote, they're entitled to it, aren't they? A. Q. Yes, they are. And was there a roll call vote requested

regarding the issue of seating Arizona or not? A. Q. A. Q. No. Did you turn off the mic? No. When Cora Esquivel wanted to speak on that issue,

was her mic turned off? A. Q. A. Q. No. Do you know who did it? No. Why didn't you allow for a roll call vote on a

state by state as outlined on Section 5 for the seating of Arizona? MR. GUAJARDO: Your Honor. BY MR. GARCIA: Q. 148 people? THE COURT: Sustained. It's been asked and answered. Asked and answered,

MR. GUAJARDO: BY MR. GARCIA: Q.

You said -- you basically just looked at the -480.227.4077 www.TAtrans.com TRUAUDIO TRANSCRIBERS, LLC

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at the assembly of 1,600 voters and decided that there was not two-thirds there, and your opinion was -- was it, wasn't it? A. Q. That is correct. And then the appeal to the national advisor,

Mr. Escobar, who serves on -- who is also appointed by who? A. That is appointed -- his position is appointed by

the national president. Q. A. Q. Ms. Moran? That is correct. And he said there was no need for a roll call

vote on that issue either; right? A. Q. I'm sorry. Please restate your question.

Did -- Mr. Escobar said there was no need to have

a roll call vote on the issue of seating Arizona or not? A. Q. No. Okay. MR. GARCIA: MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT: questions. I just want to clarify. So I understand your testimony, when there -- testimony, when there was this "standup, raise
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Pass the witness, Your Honor. Nothing further, Your Honor.

Let me see if I have any

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your hand" vote on the Arizona delegation, neither you nor the counters actually counted the votes; is that correct? THE WITNESS: THE COURT: there's follow-up. MR. FORD: THE COURT: MR. FORD: Sorry. I actually do have a follow-up. One lawyer per witness. He has a follow-up. That is correct, sir. Okay. You may step down, unless

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. GARCIA: Q. Just -- after -- after there was -- there was an

election for national president between Ms. Moran and Mary Ramos; is that right? A. Q. A. That is correct. And was there a roll call vote there? Again, as stated previously, from the testimony I The proper

just gave, no, because she didn't ask for it.

procedure would have been to ask for a two-thirds to overturn the legal advisor's opinion. Q. But I'm asking you, when there was -- there was She wasn't disqualified because there had

two candidates.

not been a legal opinion yet? A. Uh-huh.
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Q. A. Q. A. Q.

So all she needed was 50 plus one; is that right? That would have been correct. And it was by standup vote also; right? Correct. Did you ask Arizona how many for and against, how

many for Ramos, how many for Moran? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. No, because we did a standup vote. Did you go down the states and ask for a count? No, there was -And that was just 50 plus one; is that right? That is 50 plus one. And when Mrs. Ramos asked to appeal to the

national counsel, it was denied; is that correct? A. Q. That is correct. And this other one about the rules for -- only

having a standup vote, if it's a question before the general assembly, you said you don't know where it is -it's not in the rules; is that correct? A. basic -Q. The vote on the -- seating the Arizona A question for the general assembly, which is

delegation. A. Q. A. Uh-huh, correct. Is -- the rule you just mentioned that -General business.
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Q.

-- all you needed was a -- you looked at the

crowd and you decided how many are for or against, is anywhere in 20 -- in the rules adopted at the 2013 national convention? A. Again, these are for electing officers. Those

are for elections. Q.

The Arizona was general business.

And where does it say anything about general

business at the national election convention rules? A. It does not. But during the election -- but

during the convention, sir, as you well know, we also have general business. MR. GARCIA: THE COURT: MR. GARCIA: Your Honor. THE COURT: Mr. Guajardo. Object. Sustained. I have nothing further, Nonresponsive after --

REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. Would you explain what comes under general

business and how that was determined? A. Sure. General business goes from anything from

approving a credentials report to making a motion to adjourn to making a motion for lunch. Basic, you know,

when we open the convention, you have new business, old
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business, elections.

And the -- the Saturday portion of

the convention is usually the elections and then you go into resolutions and constitutional amendments. And any

other business that the organization needs to conduct. Q. So this would have been general business, under

credentials, basically? A. Q. Correct. Just general business? MR. GUAJARDO: Your Honor. MR. GARCIA: THE COURT: MR. GARCIA: THE COURT: One last question. Well, let me ask first. Okay. Go ahead. Okay. Nothing further,

Let me -- I just want to clarify

I understand your testimony. THE WITNESS: THE COURT: says: Yes, sir. Rule 5, the second sentence

The head of each delegation shall announce his or

her council's vote and the election judge shall repeat vote to the floor. It's your position that that only applies to a roll call vote? THE WITNESS: THE COURT: that rule?
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That is correct, sir. And where does it say that in

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THE WITNESS:

It says there, under roll call

vote, sir, election shall be by standup vote, show of hands, roll call vote. The head of each delegation shall

announce his or her vote. You only get that when you do a roll call vote, when you go state by state, council by council. THE COURT: How do I know that by reading

THE WITNESS:

I would know that, sir,

because I've been an election judge before and that is practiced during LULAC conventions, when you go role -THE COURT: So it's the course of -- so your That's

testimony is really it's the course of practice.

not your interpretation of how I, as the judge, should read this rule. THE WITNESS: THE COURT: That is correct, Your Honor. Okay. Any follow-up?

MR. GUAJARDO: MR. GARCIA:

No, Your Honor. I have just one.

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION

As the election judge, you ruled that for

everybody to put away their cell phones and not to videotape the proceedings. Why did you do that?

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A.

Because we were having protests and concerns from

people in the audience about video cameras and people taking pictures of other people. Q. Why didn't you want the -- had -- had -- had we

ever had national LULAC conventions since you've been a member where they were not allowed to videotape or take pictures in a convention? MR. GUAJARDO: Your Honor. THE COURT: MR. GARCIA: THE COURT: THE WITNESS: Sustained. I don't ... Objection. Not relevant,

Nothing further, Your Honor. You may step down. Thank you, Your Honor.

You want to take a break now, or do you want to call another witness, Mr. Guajardo? MR. GUAJARDO: witness, Your Honor. THE COURT: Okay. It's going to be short. You'll Let me just call the next

MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT:

Please come forward.

come right up the middle here and end up in front of this table where my clerk is. middle. Over here. Straight up the

Right in front of this table where my clerk is Right here. COURT OFFICER: Would you spell your name

right here.

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for me, please. THE WITNESS: COURT OFFICER: THE WITNESS: COURT OFFICER: please. (The witness was sworn.) THE COURT: podium. Please walk around behind the Watch your step. Brenda Estrada. Last name. Estrada, E-S-T-R-D-A [ sic ]. Right your right hand,

You're going to go up the ramp.

And you're going to end up over here on my left in this chair. THE WITNESS: THE COURT: Make yourself comfortable. Right here. Yeah. This chair right here.

BRENDA ESTRADA, a witness herein, having been first duly sworn to speak the truth and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. Would you please state your name. You're Brenda

Estrada; right? A. Yes.
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Q. A. Q.

How long have you been a member of LULAC, Brenda? Ten years. And were you at the LULAC Arizona state

convention this last time? A. Q. Yes, sir. And what was your role there at the state

convention in Tucson? A. Q. I was at the registration table that day. Did you handle all the registration for the state

convention? A. Q. Yes. All right. And did you stay there the entire

time that the registration was open? A. Q. It was from 8:00 to 9:00. Did you see some people that arrived after

registration had closed? A. Q. A. Q. Oh, yes. What time did they arrive? Like around 11:00, 10:45. Did -- was there a credentials person sitting

next to you also? A. Q. A. Q. No. It was just me. Okay?

You were doing everything. Yes.

Did you ever tell Roberto Soto that -- that by
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registering, just simply registering, that entitled to him to vote as a delegate? A. Q. A. Q. He didn't even register. He did not register? He don't came to me. Okay. Did he ever go up to you and present a

delegate letter? A. Q. No. Is it your job as registration to obtain delegate

letters from all the people that are wanting to be delegates? A. Q. A. Q. you? A. Q. No, just me. Okay. And were there announcements made prior to Yes, sir. Did you ever talk to him? No. Okay. Did anyone else handle registration beside

registration closing to as to -- you know, that people had to register by a certain time? A. Q. Yes, by the agenda. All right. Did -- did Randy Parraz's people show

up late as well? A. Q. Yes. Did they -- any of those people present any
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delegate letters? MR. GARCIA: THE WITNESS: MR. GARCIA: leading the witness. THE COURT: Sustained. Okay. Judge -No. -- I'm going to object to

MR. GUAJARDO: BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q.

Did -- did Randy Parraz's people present any

delegate letters to you? A. Q. No. How many people actually were -- do you recall

how many were credentialed and became delegates there? A. Q. How many they got? Yeah. How many -- how many actual delegates were

seated there at that convention, approximately how many? A. I don't have the exact amount, but it was -- at

that day, I would receive, I can say, like ten letters. And the other ones, it was prior by mail. Q. Okay. So -- but were there a lot of people

attending the state convention in Tucson? A. Q. Yes. How many people would you say that were there

were delegates, if you can -- you can say. A. I can say like a hundred.
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Q.

Okay.

And all the hundred delegates that were --

approximately a hundred delegates that were seated and credentialed, all of them presented delegate letter to you or had sent them to you in advance by mail; correct? A. Q. In advance and that day too. Is anyone allowed to be a delegate if they don't

even properly present a delegate letter and they don't come on time to register and so forth? A. If they don't come on time for the registration,

they're not allowed to be registered at the convention. But the delegation, they're allowed to come the whole day. Q. So -- so as long as they get there prior to the

cutoff to become credentialed and they meet all the other requirements, they can get credentialed and be a delegate; correct? A. Q. A. Uh-huh. Is that a yes? Yes. I'm sorry. MR. GUAJARDO: Your Honor. We pass the witness,

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. GARCIA: Q. Ma'am, just a couple of questions. What was the

registration on -- at the Arizona state convention, from
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what time to what time? A. Q. From 8:00 to 9:00. Okay. MR. GARCIA: Your Honor? THE COURT: BY MR. GARCIA: Q. If you will -- let me show you what's going to be You said you went by the agenda; Yes, you may. May I approach the witness,

marked as Exhibit No. 1. right? A. Q. A. Q. A. Yes.

Who told you to change the agenda? This is not a (indiscernible) in the agenda. Who is -- who is this from? This is agenda that I do in the beginning, and

they change agenda because someone asking for extension and they change it. Q. This is what you mailed out to all the councils,

wasn't it? A. Q. A. No. Well, what odes the agenda say here? That one say registration from 8:00 to 10:00.

But we changed the agenda. Q. Were you at the meeting the night before where

Mr. Moran was -- Moran was with Mr. Mireles and Cora
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Esquivel? A.

Were you at that meeting? It was not a meeting. It was the reception

welcoming for Mr. Moran. Q. A. Q. Okay. So were you at that reception?

Yes, sir. Okay. And at that reception, do you -- did --

you weren't here for Mrs. Esquivel's testimony, were you? A. Q. No. Okay. You understand Ms. Esquivel was supporting

Mr. Moran when she went to that reception the day before the Arizona convention? A. Q. A. Q. No. You didn't know she was supporting Mr. Moran? Being supportive of, we don't talk about it. Okay. Well, who -- did Mr. Moran give

instructions on how to run the Arizona meeting to you? A. Q. register? A. Q. No, sir. Okay. Did he tell you to change it from 8:00 to No, sir. He didn't tell you who to register and who not to

9:00 so that their people would get their early and the people coming from Phoenix would not be allowed to register? A. That changes that they're not coming that night.
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Q. Tucson. A.

I know.

They have to drive from Phoenix to

Yeah.

But I'm saying that those changes, they're

not coming that day. Q. A. Okay. So when -- when were these changes made?

The new agenda, it have to be made one month

prior to the convention. Q. All right. So was this agenda changed --

anything on the agenda changed besides the registration? A. Q. No, not besides the registration. So everything stayed the same except for people

to register to vote; is that correct? A. Q. Can you repeat the question? Everything on this agenda stayed the same except

when people could register; is that right? A. Q. Just that. Okay. MR. GARCIA: MR. GUAJARDO: We can take the recess now. THE COURT: Well, I have a question. Oh, I'm sorry. Thank you. Nothing further, Your Honor.

MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT:

When the new agenda was made,

when the time was changed, was that notice sent out to anybody?
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THE WITNESS:

Yeah, we send it -- we send it

THE COURT: THE WITNESS: invitations that we make. THE COURT:

To who? To everybody. All the

All the invitations that you

THE WITNESS: the state convention. THE COURT:

Yeah, to the convention, to

Okay.

And when would that have

THE WITNESS: THE COURT: THE WITNESS: THE COURT: THE WITNESS: THE COURT: THE WITNESS: like I'm a state position. state. THE COURT: THE WITNESS: check the agenda. THE COURT:

Huh? When would that have been done? When we did it? Yes. When did you do that?

I'm not the person to do that. You don't do that? No. But I'm in charge to --

We check the agenda with the

So do you -It's not only one person to

So do you have any personal

knowledge of when notice of the change was sent out?
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. GARCIA: Q. register? A. Q. A. Q. right? A. Q. A. Q. Yeah. Okay. sent? persons.

THE WITNESS:

Yeah.

I'm -- I'm one of the

THE COURT:

So when would it -- when was it

THE WITNESS: THE COURT: THE WITNESS:

When this is sent? Yes. I can say like a month before

the agenda -- the convention. THE COURT: THE WITNESS: THE COURT: How far before? A month. Okay. Any follow-up?

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION

Did you allow Cora Esquivel and her delegates to

They got there early.

At the time of the registration. But they had not paid their dues 30 days before;

Who, Cora? Right. She don't pay the dues to me. But were you -- you were in charge of
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registration; is that right? A. Q. Of the registration. So you couldn't have registered somebody who had

not paid their dues 30 days before; right? A. Sir, I don't have the dues information. I just

attended that date, the registration on that date. Q. Okay. So you don't know about when people were

registered or not registered before the Arizona convention? A. Q. A. Q. A. Yes, sir. Okay. They come to my address, the checks.

When did you get Cora Esquivel's checks?

When I get it? Yes. I don't get her checks. She went to the

convention that day and registered that day. Q. right? A. Q. She sent -- she gave me the delegation letters. Okay. MR. GARCIA: THE COURT: Thank you. Any follow-up, Mr. Guajardo? All right. And she was allowed to vote that day;

REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. But everybody has to be paid up 30 days before in
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order to be a delegate; correct? A. Yeah. I have to be -- they have to be paid at

the time of the registration or prior to the convention. Q. correct? A. Q. Yes. You just get a letter of those that are members And that's done by somebody else than yourself;

in good standing that can be eligible -A. Q. A. Yes. -- to attend and be delegates? Yes. MR. GUAJARDO: MR. GARCIA: Nothing further, Your Honor. Last question, Your Honor.

FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. GARCIA: Q. Did Cora Esquivel show you any delegate letters,

when her and her councils were registered? A. Q. In the morning, yes. She testified she had no delegate letters. MR. GUAJARDO: That's not -BY MR. GARCIA: Q. or not?
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Objection, Your Honor.

Do you know if that's true -- would that be true

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A.

She had their own delegation letters because she

was doing it by hand. Q. hand? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. You can do that. And you took it? She give it to me. Okay. And I pass it to the credentials. So she didn't have one from El Paso saying she Oh, she just did her own delegation letter by

was properly chartered 30 days before; right? A. No. MR. GARCIA: MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT: Okay. Pass the witness.

Nothing further, Your Honor. You may step down.

Thank you.

We'll take our afternoon break. How much more do you have, Mr. Guajardo? MR. GUAJARDO: couple witnesses, maybe. fast, Your Honor. THE COURT: Okay. I won't take half the day, I I'll check. I still have a

I'll try to move them along real

MR. GUAJARDO: know that. THE COURT:

Okay.

Thank you.

(Recess taken from 3:02 p.m. to 3:21 p.m. )
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 podium. hand.

THE COURT:

Mr. Guajardo. We call Mari Alvarado,

MR. GUAJARDO: Your Honor, as our witness. THE COURT:

Okay.

Please come forward and

my clerk will swear you in your here on your left. COURT OFFICER: for me, please. THE WITNESS: A-L-V-A-R-A-D-O. COURT OFFICER: Thank you. Raise your right Mari, M-A-R-I, Alvarado, Could you spell your name

(The witness was sworn. ) THE COURT: Please walk around behind the Watch your step

You're going to go up the ramp.

right there. my left.

And then you'll end up over in this chair on

MARI ALVARADO, a witness herein, having been first duly sworn to speak the truth and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. Mrs. Alvarado, how long have you been with LULAC?
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A. Q.

About 14 years. And what are some of the offices you've held in

the 14 years with them? A. Council president, district one director,

currently the treasurer at the council level, and I've also been honored as Woman of the Year. Q. Congratulations on Woman of the Year. Did you also serve any particular function at the Tucson state Arizona convention last year? A. Q. I was the election cochair. As the election cochair, what were some of the

duties that you performed? A. Presiding at the microphone and pretty much

conducting the nominations and the elections. Q. Okay. Were the elections conducted pursuant to

the Robert's Rules of Order? A. Q. A. Yes. Was there nominations previously? The nominations that I received 30 days previous

to the convention, yes, I did receive some nominations of the incumbents 30 days prior to the convention. And it

was -- according to Robert's Rules of Order, we would also accept nominations from the floor on that day. Q. Did you ask if there were any further

nominations?
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A. Q.

Yes, I did. And how many -- were there any nominations from

the floor? A. Q. There were no nominations from the floor. Do you remember what -- who the candidates were

that were nominated for office, if you remember? A. Yes. All the incumbents would be for state

director, John Mireles; deputy director, Richard Estrada; for treasurer, Brenda Estrada; for deputy director for women was Connie Martinez; for deputy director for elderly was Hortencia Valdivia [phonetic]; and for young adults was Maria Pinzon. director for youth. Q. What was the process used to register and And we had a vacancy for the deputy

credential people as delegates? A. I was not part of that process. I was actually

at the time that I cochaired with David V. Hernandez, all of that was done. Q. A. Q. Is there -Typically, there -- you know --- is there -- is it enough just to register as a

delegate, or do you -- I mean, do you register as a -- as a registrant attending and then you also have to get credentialed? A. Is that -- is that basically --

Yes, there is a process.
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Q. A.

-- a two-part process? So once you're a member in good standing, you can

register for any convention, and I believe the registration for many of the councils was done by email and by U.S. mail. And then -- then there is another

process for the credentials and the nominations. Q. Were the councils and everyone interested in

attending the June 8, 2013, state Arizona convention for LULAC, advised of the agenda per -- about time frame for your registration, et cetera, and all that? A. The agenda and the program was emailed easily six

weeks prior to the convention. Q. All right. Because there's a discussion as to

whether the cut-off time was at 9:00 or whether it was at 10:00. Do you recall what the registration form that was

sent out six weeks prior, do you remember what the cut-off dates were -- cut-off time was for registration? A. to 10:00. Q. Okay. You don't -- are you positive, or you just I -- I don't recall. It might have been closer

don't recall? A. I just don't recall. MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT: BY MR. GUAJARDO:
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May I approach, Your Honor?

Yes, you may.

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Q.

May I show you something to refresh your

recollection? A. Q. Yes, uh-huh. Does that refresh your recollection as to when

the registration was cut off? A. Well, the -- I remember that we had registration

opening up at 8:30, but I believe that the registration table closed like at 9:30. Q. Okay. MR. GARCIA: that an exhibit, Counsel? THE COURT: Refresh your recollection. We'd like to offer it as an Judge, I'm going to object. Is

MR. GUAJARDO: exhibit.

I only have one copy, so I'd have to make

copies, Your Honor. THE COURT: Can you show it to me? There was testimony of that

MR. GUAJARDO:

being sent out at least a month before by Ms. Estrada. MR. GARCIA: Your Honor. I'm sorry. No objections,

I like this one. THE COURT: Okay. I'll have to make copies.

MR. GUAJARDO: This is all I have right now. THE COURT:

We'll have it marked as

Exhibit 28 and admitted into evidence.
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MR. GUAJARDO: BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q.

All right.

What did you do with -- with regards to the --

the actual running of the election during the business session, the elections? A. It was after lunch when the business started My role was after all the seats -- the So then it was

after lunch.

seating of the delegates had taken place. my role to accept motions from the floor. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A.

Were there any motions made from the floor? To close the -- to certify the delegates. Okay. Who made that motion, do you recall?

Terri Cruz. Okay. 1083. And then what happened after nominations closed? Then I started -- I asked for motions to accept And do you know what council she's from?

the slate of nominees to be elected. Q. A. And what happened then? We did receive -- Terri Cruz also nominated -- I

mean made a motion that we elect the slate of officers by acclamation. Q. A. Q. And did that motion -And there was a second --- for acclamation carry?
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A.

And -- and then I asked all those in favor.

And

it was aye, and -Q. A. Q. The ayes carried? The ayes carried. Were there some other issues presented during the

conduction of your -- your convention that -- that were concerns for you with regards to other people that may have complained that they weren't allowed to be delegates? A. I felt for my safety. There was a lot of noise.

There were some group -- a group that was headed by Randy Parraz that was standing around, and they had whistles. They had noisemakers. They had -- they were yelling. And

I just kept saying, you're out of order. moving on with the elections. Q.

And I just kept

They were screaming. Who was

You're saying they were screaming.

screaming? A. brought. Q. A. Randy Parraz and some young people that he I don't know -Approximately how many people did he bring? I would say 40 to 50 people that were standing And

in -- to my left of the -- of the seated delegates. most of the seated delegates were elderly. Q.

So approximately how many -- what number were

actually seated delegates, if you can remember? A. It was over a hundred.
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Q. A. Q.

Okay. Maybe a hundred and -And all the delegates which was -- could be over

a hundred were actually sitting down -A. Q. A. Q. Yes. -- as certified delegates; is that correct? That's correct. And you said the other individuals, where were

they essentially? A. They were standing around, milling to the left of

the people, and they were yelling and just saying names, and they were rude with our elderly delegation, seated delegates. And I even had one person, Randy Parraz said,

after it was over -MR. GARCIA: nonresponsive. MR. GUAJARDO: were, Your Honor. I asked her what her concerns Judge, I'm going to object as

She's explaining. Overruled. Security.

THE COURT: THE WITNESS: BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. A. Q. business. Did --

Security for myself and for the delegation. -- was this commotion going on during the

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I'm sorry. Security and safety for myself, as well as for

the elderly seated delegation. Q. And was this commotion and noise made by

Mr. Parraz's group, was that going on during the time that you were conducting business of the election? A. Q. Yes. Were you able to complete the business of the

convention? A. Q. Yes, with some -- a lot of difficulty. Did -- did Randy Parraz and them have their own

election in the back of the room? A. I was not there, but I heard afterwards and then

I did see emails and also on Facebook that they had elected their own slate of officers. Q. A. Q. So they announced their own slate and they had -That's right. -- an election, and they had their own elected

officers; correct? A. Yes. And I know Miguel Zazueta one of the -- was

the state director that they elected. Q. So why would they be complaining that they didn't

get an election slate if they conducted their own election and had elected officers and announced them to everybody on Facebook? Why -- why are we here?
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A.

That's a good question.

If they felt that they

had their -- you know, delegates and they had elected their slate by the rule -- by Robert's Rules or by the constitutions and bylaws ... Q. Let me -MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT: BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. Just show you Exhibit No. 24, Defendant's Exhibit Would you identify that May I approach, Your Honor?

Yes, you may.

No. 24, if there's no objection. document. A. What is that?

These are the minutes of the June 8th convention

in Tucson. Q. And as election chair, did you revise or review

those minutes for accuracy? A. I did review the minutes for accuracy, and they

are correct. Q. And these are kept in the regular course of

business for the convention, correct? A. minutes. Q. A. All right. Yes. MR. GUAJARDO: Your Honor.
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Yes.

This is standard procedure, to have

I'd ask that it be admitted,

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. GARCIA: Q. BY MR. GARCIA: Q. were? A. Q. A. Q. Your Honor.

MR. GARCIA: THE COURT:

No objection. Exhibit 24 is admitted. And we pass the witness,

MR. GUAJARDO:

CROSS-EXAMINATION

Mrs. Alvarado, you're a teacher, aren't you, or

I am a retired teacher. You taught children? I taught both children, young adults, and adults. Okay. And when you teach and when you're

teaching a subject, you follow the textbook when it tells you the process; is that correct? A. A combination of things. MR. GARCIA: Judge, I don't recall the

exhibit number, but the one that counsel submitted with the -THE COURT: MR. GARCIA: 28? Exhibit 28. May I see that?

So if you have a textbook that has three

different versions of what to do, that would be hard to teach, wouldn't it?
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A. Q.

No. Okay. Well, let me show you what's been marked

as Exhibit No. 28, which your attorney showed, and on this one, what does it say the registration is, from when to when? A. It says that the registration starts at 8:30 and

ends at 9:00, and actually I think it ended later than 9:00. Q. A. Q. A. Okay. Uh-huh. 30 minutes? Uh-huh. THE COURT: MR. GARCIA: THE WITNESS: THE COURT: THE WITNESS: MR. GARCIA: BY MR. GARCIA: Q. Now I'm going to show you another one, which is What does this agenda say? This is Exhibit Those are yeses? I need you to say yes or no. Yes. Just so we can have a record. Yes. Okay. But this one says 9 o'clock; right?

the agenda. No --

MR. FORD: MR. GARCIA:

One. -- No. 1. 8 a.m. to 10 a.m., which is

THE WITNESS:

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really more closer to what I thought actually happened. We actually did have. BY MR. GARCIA: Q. So anybody could register between 8:00 and 10:00.

That's what you recall; is that correct? A. Q. A. Q. right? A. Q. A. Q. A. Yeah. For the convention? Yeah, registration, $25 for a lunch. Okay. No. And to register to vote? You -- I mean, you have to start with that, Yes, uh-huh. Okay. For a lunch. No. I'm talking about -- this is registration;

but you can't just assume that just because you paid your $25, that you're going to be a delegate. Q. A. Q. Okay. Is that the question? Well, I'm just -- I'm just looking at when you One

could register to vote -- register to be a delegate. says 8:30 to 9:00.

It's hard to get -- how long does it You live here in

take to go from Phoenix to Tucson. Tucson -- in Phoenix; right? A. Okay.

Mr. Garcia, you asked me when you can
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register to vote.

You -- in order to vote, there's like You have to be a member in

something else you have to do.

good standing of a council and you have to send a delegate letter 30 days prior to that. Q. A. Q. Okay. Okay? So what I'm asking though is just to register --

after you've done all that, you then still have the register at the convention, pay your registration fee? A. Q. A. Uh-huh. All right. Which entitles you to be a registered for that,

get a meal, and attend the conferences and be part of the speakers. Q. All right. So, all right, we got two different

versions here.

And then Exhibit No. -MR. FORD: MR. GARCIA: 24. -- 24 are the minutes that you

just referred to. minutes?

Do they have a registration time on the

Do you see that anywhere? THE WITNESS: Yes, hold on a second. These

minutes, I don't -- I can't find where it says that the registration was closed, but I did say it. And I have an

audiotape that says that I said registration was closed, right before resolutions were accepted and Mr. -- Reverend
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John Mireles requested that everyone attend the workshops. I did say that. BY MR. GARCIA: Q. A. Who prepared these minutes? Dr. Maria Figueroa. And keep in mind that these

minutes have not been approved, because they have to be approved at the next state convention. But these are

pretty close to what happened, except that I know that I did say -- that the registration has been closed. say that. Q. they? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. Because? But I did they that. Wasn't there an attempt by the state director, But they were left out of these minutes, weren't I did

Mr. Mireles, to say that some of the councils that arrived from Phoenix had arrived late? A. I don't know. You'll have to ask Reverend

Mireles that. Q. Okay. Were -- several councils were denied the

ability to -- to vote, were they not? A. I was told that some people were unhappy because

they were not eligible to vote, and there were a couple -various reasons why they were not eligible to vote.
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One

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is that they were not members in good standing and had not paid their dues on time. And secondly, that they had not

turned in their delegate letters on time. Q. Did -- did you remember that when you all --

there was workshops in the morning at the convention at the Pima Community College; is that correct? A. Q. Yes, uh-huh. Do you remember there were two -- there was a

lunch; is that correct? A. Q. Yes. And because of the overflow, there were two rooms

that were used for lunches; is that right? A. Q. Yes. Didn't the students serve all the elderly and the

regular elect members, because of the crowd? A. adults. Q. Okay. So they actually helped and everything was Some of the students did, and so did some of the

going fine at that point -- at that point; right? A. Q. Yes, everything went smoothly in the morning. And at the afternoon, who decided that these

councils would be excluded for not having their delegate letters, not registering on time or whatever the -- the issue was? A. Who made that decision?

At every LULAC convention, that is decided by the
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credentials committee who gets seated, and that is, you know, based on their registration, paying their state, their national, and their district dues. letters are sent in in a timely fashion. Q. A. Q. A. Q. You've been here all today; right? Pardon me? You've been in the courtroom all this morning? Yes. And during the whole time that you've been here, And that their

do you remember the -- I believe her name -- the registration chair at the Arizona convention said that -Brenda Estrada -- said that Cora Esquivel and her councils were allowed to handwrite their letters so they could register that day. A. Okay. Do you recall hearing that?

In response to that question, was I here I was not here when Brenda Estrada did her

all morning? testimony. Q. Okay.

Would you be surprised that if -- the

pro-Moran Arizona councils were allowed to register, even though they were not there 30 days before? that? A. Q. Rephrase that. I would be surprised if what? Did you know

That pro-Moran LULAC councils were allowed to

register the day of the convention, even though they didn't have their delegation letters.
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A. happened. Q. A. Q. A.

That -- I would be very surprised if that I think everybody -Did you run that convention? -- runs -- everybody goes by the same rules. Did you run the state convention? I was the election cochair. I did not run the I was

convention, but I did participate in the panels. one of the panelists for the education. vendors. I also brought some youth.

And also we did

So in that sense, I

did a lot of work with the committee. Q. Do you recall a meeting the night before with

Mr. Moran at a casino? A. I recall a gathering, which was a welcome, like a

reception, because we did have national president Moran attend and it was a gathering. Q. And do you recall at that gathering, that

Mr. Moran and Ms. Moran gave you instructions on how to run the meeting? A. Q. A. Q. That is not true. That didn't happen? No. Okay. That did not occur. So if -- if Cora Esquivel and other

witnesses testified that's what happened, they would just being incorrect? A. I don't know. I'd have to wait and hear what she

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said. Q. Okay. Now, at the meeting, when you did run it,

did you notify -- do you remember -- do you recall where you said you were going to seat these delegates and not seat other delegates? A. I don't recall that. I was up at the front with

the certification -- the credentials team and we were seating the delegates by council numbers. Q. A. team. Who was on the credentials team? There were like five people on the credentials It was Minnie Rahn, Ana Valenzuela, John Mireles, I'm sure I'm missing one.

Eva Macias. Q. director? A. Q. A. Q. Yes.

Did John Mireles have an opponent for state

Who was that? Miguel Zazueta. And did they find Miguel Zazueta was running for

Arizona state director and had been a member for over a decade to be ineligible that day? MR. GUAJARDO: member over a decade. Objection as to have been a

There's testimony that he had some Misrepresents

lapse in his membership, Your Honor. evidence. MR. GARCIA:

The Court will recall the

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testimony. THE COURT: Overruled. The Court

understands the objection to the question is not relevant -THE WITNESS: THE COURT: BY MR. GARCIA: Q. Do you recall that Mr. Zazueta, who was running Would you repeat the question. -- to the actual question.

for Arizona director against Mr. Mireles, who was on the credentials committee, was declared ineligible that day? A. May. asked. Q. Because he had announced he was running against I knew that he was ineligible around the end of I knew that, because questions were already being

Mr. Mireles; right? A. Q. No. And -- but he wasn't advised of it, and neither

were any of the other LULAC councils advised of it until the day of the convention; is that correct? A. Q. I do not know when he was advised. Do you recall when you were there at the front,

there at that hall? A. Q. Uh-huh. And you said -- and you asked that the following

councils are going to be seated, and they took chairs, and
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then the other councils were not seated. doing that at that convention? A. Q. Was I aware of it?

Do you remember

What was the question? I

Do you remember -- do you remember doing that?

was there. A. Oh, yes. I was -- I was -- you know, I was The certification committee

there, as they were seating.

was sitting -- seating the delegates. Q. And weren't the majority of the delegates not

seated, of the delegates that were there -A. Q. A. Q. I --- of the people who were there? I could not say. Like, say, two-thirds were not seated. Would

that be an accurate account? A. Q. I couldn't say. And didn't those delegates, at the beginning, all

they did was hold up their chartered letters, say they were chartered members? A. Do you remember that? They had noisemakers. Object. Nonresponsive.

They had whistles. MR. GARCIA:

BY MR. GARCIA: Q. charters? THE COURT: Sustained. Do you recall them just holding up their

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MR. GARCIA: THE WITNESS: THE COURT: THE WITNESS:

Yes or no? Do I have to answer that? Yes. They held up posters, yes.

But they did a lot of other noise too. BY MR. GARCIA: Q. And it was only after you refused to seat them

that it got out of hand, didn't it? A. see them. Q. security. whole time? A. I know there was campus security and then there But I don't know what the number was. Mr. Dominguez [ sic ], it wasn't me that refused to I was just the election cochair. And then you said you were worried about Weren't there two police officers there the

was police there.

I did keep -- keep asking for them to, you know, come in and control the group. Q. When there was a motion to rule -- to re-elect

the slate by acclamation, did you give an opportunity for anybody to run from the floor? A. The running from the floor was done between 8:25,

when we opened it up, and during the -- request for nominations from the floor. Q. That was done in the morning.

You didn't -- you had said there were no

nominations, did you?
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A. Q.

I did, in the morning, yes. I'm talking about when the actual vote was going

to be taken care of, after the delegates had been seated? A. Q. Because the nominations for elections had closed. So your slate was elected by acclamation after

two-thirds of the people were excluded; right? MR. GUAJARDO: Objection, Your Honor.

There's no evidence that anybody was excluded who was validly a good member in good standing. THE COURT: BY MR. GARCIA: Q. A. Q. Is that correct? They were ex- -- ineligible to vote, like I said. So we had an election where there was only one Overruled.

slate, a one-party system, where only one group was allowed to vote, and nobody else could run against them. Is that what happened? A. 30 days prior to the convention, there was a And all those

request for nominations, like we always do. that want to -MR. GARCIA: nonresponsive. THE WITNESS: THE COURT: MR. GARCIA:

I'm going to object as

-- submit their nominations. Sustained. Please answer my question.

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. GARCIA: Q. A. Q. he asked.

THE COURT:

You need to answer the question

THE WITNESS:

Okay.

The question is?

You had a one slate? One slate in the afternoon. There was no democracy. No other candidates were

allowed to run against that slate; is that correct? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. That is correct. And Mr. Moran was in the room when this happened? I don't know. You didn't see him on the podium? No, I didn't see him. I was busy with --

Well, you went to his reception the night before,

didn't you? A. Q. happened? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. It's possible. Who paid for you to go to Las Vegas? Nobody. Okay. How many members from your council went? Yes. So wasn't him and Mrs. Moran there when this

How many members from my council went? Yes, sir -- yes, ma'am. About eight.
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Q. Morans? A.

Did you get any financial support from the

No, I did not. MR. GARCIA: Pass the witness.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. Is there a process for nominations that are

accepted 30 days prior? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yes. And was that done in this case? Yes. Did Miguel Zazueta submit his name? He did not. Did anybody else submit their name? No, no one else. And they had full opportunity to do so if they

wanted to run; correct? A. 30 days prior, as well as on the morning, when It

they opened up at 8:00 -- we were there at 8 o'clock. says here 8:25 was the opening. were there at 8 a.m. But all of our members

And then we did the guest speakers

after the business, and then we did the call for the nominations from the floor. nominations submitted. And there were no other

The resolutions were accepted.

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But prior to that, I said nomination -- the nominations are closed and registrations are closed. Q. All right. And you're a named defendant in this

case; correct? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yes. Is that a yes? Yes. And -Yes. -- you saw their verified complaint where at

least two of their -- of their affidavits say they arrived at 10:45 to register; correct? A. Q. Correct. You saw that? And so that's way after 10 o'clock, by -even by elementary standards, or what we have three books with whatever? A. Q. A. Q. A. Right. In spite of that, they arrived at 10:45? That's right. That's their own affidavit; correct? That's correct. MR. GUAJARDO: MR. GARCIA: on redirect?
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Nothing further, Your Honor. One last question, Your Honor,

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Mr. Mireles. BY MR. GARCIA: Q. On the credentials committee declaring Your Honor? BY MR. GARCIA: Q. Having Mr. Morales [ sic ], who was the state FURTHER CROSS-EXAMINATION

director, on the credentials committee declare Mr. Zazueta ineligible to run against him, you didn't think that was a conflict as elections judge? MR. GUAJARDO: Did he say Morales,

I think it's Mireles. THE COURT: MR. GARCIA: Mireles. Mireles. I'm sorry.

Mr. Zazueta ineligible to run against him, you didn't think that was a conflict? A. Mr. Mireles did not declare Mr. Zazueta as It came from national, from the national

ineligible. membership. Q. A. Q.

And that's -That's where it came from. And were you aware that Mr. Mireles then

contacted Lupe Morales and asked him -- her to declare Mr. Zazueta ineligible since he had sponsored these councils?
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A.

I was not aware of that.

I just heard testimony

this morning how that happened. Q. A. Q. You were at the national convention; right? Yes. If those 148 people had been allowed to sit,

would they have changed the outcome? A. Q. A. I don't know. Would they have -I don't know how those 148 would have voted

because there were several candidates running for national president. Q. Well, not about for national president. If that

148 delegates had been seated, would that could possibly have changed the outcome of the national election? A. I don't think so. MR. GARCIA: MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT: Pass the witness. Nothing further, Your Honor.

Did you just testify that state

officers knew before the state convention from national that Mr. Zazueta was not eligible? THE WITNESS: I knew that we were looking at

the new charters and who was signing off on the applications. So I was the one that asked, you know, who So then the question

is signing these new applications?

was, are all of these members in good standing?
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So I already had -- we were asking to find out if they were members of good standing. THE COURT: THE WITNESS: THE COURT: THE WITNESS: THE COURT: THE WITNESS: THE COURT: who is in good standing? THE WITNESS: who's in good standing? THE COURT: THE WITNESS: The state organization. Yes, the state organization, But he didn't Does the state have records of So who did you ask that? We talked in our council. So -No one in particular, yeah. So among yourselves? Yeah, amongst ourselves. Does the state have records of

The state director would have it.

have it at the time, I don't think. THE COURT: MR. GARCIA: MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT: THE WITNESS: THE COURT: THE WITNESS: MR. GUAJARDO: Okay. Any follow-up?

Nothing further, Your Honor. Nothing further. Thank you.

You may step down. Thank you. Watch your step. Thank you.

Yolanda Escobar, Your Honor.

May this witness be excused?
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 podium. of my clerk. of -list.

THE COURT: MR. GARCIA:

Yes, she may. She's not on your list. Well, I'm adding her to our

MR. GUAJARDO:

I didn't get a list from you guys either until this

morning. MR. FORD: This is it exactly -Judge, I haven't been getting

MR. GUAJARDO: lists of anything.

I mean, I'm getting them now, so -Exactly 30 seconds --- you know, so I'm kind

MR. FORD:

MR. GUAJARDO:

MR. FORD:

-- after you gave me your list. Well, I'm giving as much I gave him -- I gave him --

MR. GUAJARDO: notice as I've gotten, Judge. MR. ESCOBAR: THE COURT:

You've got to be sworn in. Come over here. Stand in front

COURT OFFICER: for the record, please. THE WITNESS:

Would you spell your name

Yolanda, Y-O-L-A-N-D-A.

Last

name is hyphenated, Rodriguez, R-O-D-R-I-G-U-E-Z hyphen Escobar, E-S-C-O-B-A-R. (The witness is sworn.) THE COURT: Please walk around behind the Watch your step.

You're going to go up the ramp.
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And you're going to end up over her on my left. While she's doing that, counsel, the Court is well aware the parties have been not engaging in what might be called sufficient timely disclosure, so I'm going to grant some latitude. Counsel are also cautioned not to

directly address each other. Mr. Guajardo.

YOLANDA RODRIGUEZ-ESCOBAR, a witness herein, having been first duly sworn to speak the truth and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. A. Q. Would you please state your full name. My name is Dr. Yolanda Rodriguez-Escobar. Ms. Escobar, you're married to Manuel Escobar; is

that correct? A. Q. A. Q. A. I am. And how long have you been in LULAC? It's going on 30 years. What are some of the offices you've held? I have been -- I've held district treasurer.

I've been involved mainly in the district locally, but
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I've been named credentials chair now for the past -- for four presidents, so it's totaling 16 years. Q. A. Q. under? A. Q. A. Q. Rick Dovalina, Héctor. Héctor Flores? Flores. Rosa Rosales and Margaret Moran. Wow, a lot of time. Consistently, yes. What are some of the presidents that you served

And as credentials chair, at the -- did you

serve -- what capacity did you serve at this national convention in Las Vegas -A. Q. A. Q. Credentials chair. Was that credentials chair as well? Yes, sir. What is the credentialing process, if you can

explain briefly. A. Basically it's pretty simple. We have to -- we

have the responsibility of -- of making sure the people are bringing their delegate letters that have already registered for the convention, and then it's a two-step process. They register, and then they come to get And they bring -- we -- we check If they

certified to vote.

membership to see if they're in good standing. are, then they're -- they're certified to vote.
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Q.

And approximately how many delegates got

credentialed at this national? A. It was -- I remember the number because it was It was 1623.

the highest number ever. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. report? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. I did. Wow.

Six -- 1623?

1623, yes, sir. And those are just the certified delegates? That's correct. That are voting? Not the alternates. Those are who voted at the convention; right? That's right. And did you prepare a credentials committee

And did you present it to the assembly? Yes, sir. And was that adopted? It was. I -- well, traditionally you give --

You prepare a preliminary report? -- a preliminary report, yes. And then there's

some tweaks to it, and then I go back and give the final report. Q. A. And was the final report adopted by the assembly? It was.
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Q.

Now, there was some concern or -- or at least

some issue with regards to some Arizona councils, whether or not they would be allowed to vote at the national convention. Did you have any part -- or did you discuss

that with any of those individuals? A. They came to credentials, I think maybe two

times, and -Q. A. Do you remember who they were, by name? I don't remember. I remember the gentleman in

the back, though -Q. A. Q. A. Q. propose? A. He -- he was pleading the credentials consider, Dr. Soto? -- coming to me. Yes, I believe that's his name.

And you spoke with him directly? I spoke to him directly, yes, I did. And what, if anything, did he -- did he ask or

you know, even though he said, can't credentials make this decision, about letting us vote. is what he asked. Q. Do you have the authority to make that Please allow us to vote

determination -A. Q. A. No. -- to seat them? No, sir, I don't.
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Q. tell him? A.

And so what did you -- if anything, what did you

I told him, I said, it's not up to me.

I have to

go by what is presented to me from Lupe Morales, from the membership, and I go by that in terms of making our determination on who is eligible to be certified. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Do you know who Guadalupe Morales is? I do. And what is she? She's the membership coordinator. So she prepares a list of all the people that

would be eligible to be certified as delegates; correct? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Correct. And she gives that to you? Yes. And that's the list you go by for credentialing? That's right. And in addition to being on the eligibility list,

they still have other requirements; correct? A. Well, they have to make sure -- in order to get

on that eligibility list, they've got to pay their dues, not just locally, their district, their state, and their national dues. 30 days before. Q. All right. So what, if anything, then, happened
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And it has to be prior to the convention,

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after you referred them to -- or did you refer them to anyone else, after that? A. Well, all I said was that it was out of my hands

and that they could bring it up, you know, to the whole delegation, that that would be their only recourse. Q. A. Q. Oh, they could take it to the National Assembly. That's right. All right. And when you presented your final

report, did anyone make a motion to allow the delegation from Arizona, they would not -- whether or not they would be seated? A. I recall there -- there being some -- you know,

somebody trying to bring that to the floor. Q. Okay. And obviously if the motion to seat the

delegation carried by two-thirds at the National Assembly, they still had to go back to you for credentialing; correct? A. Q. That's right. Do you know what the result was as to whether

they obtained the two-thirds vote or not? A. Q. A. Q. Yeah. They didn't have the vote.

Were you there when the election occurred? I was. How did you see the election? Well, you said

there were 1623 delegates?
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A. Q.

Yes. And I don't know how many two-thirds would be, I

don't know, just doing my math here quickly, they'd have to carry, what, a little over a thousand votes? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. required? A. Q. A. Q. Not -- not in my opinion, no. Was it even close? It didn't look close to me. Okay. So let's say, just for the sake of They would. Did they carry? No, definitely not. It was pretty obvious.

It was pretty obvious? It was like by a standup vote, you know. Did they have the -- the sufficient two-thirds

argument here, let's say that, you know, they'd been seated. needed -A. Q. Over a thousand. Approximately 1,200 votes at that point, because 144, 148 members, whatever, voted. They

then you add 144 to the 1623, so they would have had to need over 1,200 votes? A. Q. Yeah. So get to two-thirds. Did you see that as a

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A.

In my opinion, no, sir, I did not. MR. GUAJARDO: All right. Pass the witness.

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. GARCIA: Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Ms. Escobar? Hello. How long you been married? I've been married 39 years. And you're married to Manuel Escobar? I am. And you support your husband in everything you

do, don't you? A. asking. THE COURT: MR. ESCOBAR: that answer. MR. GUAJARDO: BY MR. GARCIA: Q. Okay. Let's look at the scope. You served as We object. That's a dangerous question. Judge, and I can vouch for We don't always agree, if that's what you're

the credentials chairwoman at the national convention? A. Q. I did. And your husband was the national advisor, legal

advisor; right?
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A. Q.

Yes, he was. And he's the one that made -- that gave the legal

opinion that required the two-thirds vote; is that correct? A. Q. To my knowledge. So here's Mr. Soto, who has been -- his councils

have been denied by your husband, and he comes to you says, your husband, in my opinion, was wrong to exclude all these -A. I don't recall -- I don't think he knew Manuel I don't recall having that conversation

was my husband. with him. Q.

Well, but you knew he was contesting your

husband's decision. A. Q. A. Q. Yes. You knew that. Uh-huh. And you told him you couldn't do anything for

him, could you? A. Q. I told him it wasn't up to me. Okay. But the credentials committee could have You have the authority, don't

seated that delegation? you? A. No, sir.

Not -- not when -- I mean, not If someone has not

according to the procedures we follow.
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paid their dues 30 days before and we get that list -- it wasn't just these councils. eligible to be certified. read. Q. her? A. Q. No, I don't. Who's Cora? So why did you -- Cora Esquivel -- do you know It was others. They're not

That's just the way the bylaws

Cora Esquivel is the LULAC president from one of And she has said

the councils here in Tucson, Arizona.

that she registered two weeks before and she was allowed to do her own handwritten letter. A. Well, most people do their own handwritten

letter, because people forget that they have to bring one prepared. But if she brought a letter and if she was on

the good list, she got to get certified. Q. before? A. That's not -- I don't do those checks. You know, And even if she had not registered 30 days

it's up to the membership coordinator to do that. Q. A. Q. A. But those challenges come to your committee? They can, yeah. And you're -And then I go to the person who has that

knowledge. Q. And so you would be the one that would say, you
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know what, they were credentialed. good standing.

They got -- they had You know what,

They paid their dues.

you're going to seat you. you? A.

You had that authority, didn't

If -- if I can verify that they did, in fact, you

know, follow proper protocol, then, yes. Q. Did Mr. Soto bring you a folder with each

individual council from LULAC -A. Q. He brought my a folder. -- in Arizona showing they paid their dues, they That they had their good charter. Did he show that

paid their -- timely.

And yet they were still being excluded. to you? A.

He brought me a folder with several, you know,

documents. Q. Did you -- did your committee review those

documents? A. We did review it. And we did go back and look at

Lupe's list, and she said, no, they are not in good standing. Q. right? A. Q. A. I'm only aware of one. Did you see the list number one? I'm only aware of the one that was shared with
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Okay.

So then, you know Lupe had two lists;

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me.

I don't know if it's number one or number two. Q. A. Q. Did you ever see a list that was shredded? No, sir, I did not. Okay. So the only one you saw was the one that

had the good councils and did not have any of the councils from Phoenix and San Luis; is that correct? A. No. It has -- it has -- it can list councils

that are in bad standing. Q. And therefore your committee backed up your

husband's legal opinion; is that correct? A. Q. No. My committee followed proper protocol.

Did you think that maybe that was a conflict of

interest, you chairing the committee that was hearing the appeal from your husband's decision? A. married? happens. Not in my opinion. I mean, how many LULACers are It just

For years, even more than 39 years. You're a LULAC family.

And so you're going to,

you know, share different offices. Q. Did you think it was fair to the people who were

coming and appealing for justice to you? A. I only look at what is according to the rules, I've done it

and that's -- that's what I'm charged to do. for 16 years. Q.

At the national convention, you were seated at

the front, were you not?
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A.

No.

I just go up there -- oh, you mean the

credentials table was up front -Q. A. Q. Yes. -- near the podium. And you went through every state to decide how

many delegates were going to be credentialed for every -A. Well, we went through that like the night before,

all night long, yes. Q. And you gave the credentials committee the day

A. Q.

I did, a preliminary report. And that credentials committee, when it came to

Arizona, the very first state, you did not have -- you excluded these 40-something councils; right? A. Q. That's right, because they were not certified. And in past -- and in this election, you said

there was a vote taken on whether to seat them or not; is that correct? A. Q. There was. How many voted for seating them, how many voted

against seating them? A. Q. A. I don't have those numbers with me. Well, just give me an approximation. I can't even approximate. I just know that it

was obvious that it, you know, was a vote was called and
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it -- it was done fair and square. Q. against? against? A. Q. A. Q.

It was obvious.

Did they call Arizona, how many for, how many Did they call Texas, how many for, how many

Are you talking about a roll call vote? Yes. No. So the only one who made a decision as to whether

they had a majority or not was who? A. Well, the people that are up there at the podium But even if you're down there, you can see It's ...

that can see.

more or less who stands up, who doesn't. Q. A. yelling. Q. call? A. Q. I don't know.

Did you hear the people ask for a roll call vote? I don't recall. There was -- there was some

So maybe that was one of the requests. Did any of the yelling include asking for a roll

Was a roll call vote ever taken on whether to

seat Arizona? A. Q. No. Was a roll call vote ever taken on whether

Ms. Ramos or Ms. Moran had the majority votes? A. Q. Not -- no. It was all decided by one person; right?
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A.

No.

There's -- there's counters.

There's people

that go up there. Q. A. Q. A. Q. If the counters don't count people -It's not just one person. -- does it matter? I'm sorry. If the counters don't count people, does it

matter whether you have counters or not? A. I think that they have the experience to look I don't think

and, you know, give in their estimation. they counted head by head, but ... Q. A. Q. A. Q. A.

Who appointed you the credentials chair? Who appointed me? Yes. The national office. Who was that, the person? The national office. I mean, it's been done for

16 consecutive years. Q.

Whoever's in office.

So in this case Margaret Moran appointed you as

the chair of credentials? A. Q. Correct. Correct.

And she appointed your husband as chair -- as the

national legal advisor? A. My husband's been the legal advisor even before

that convention.
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Q. A.

But she appointed him too; right? Yes, it's an appointed position. MR. GARCIA: MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT: THE WITNESS: MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT: Pass the witness. Nothing further, Your Honor.

You may step down. Thank you, sir. May this witness be excused?

Yes, she may. David next.

MR. GUAJARDO: THE COURT: sworn. COURT OFFICER: record, please. THE WITNESS: H-E-R-N-A-N-D-E-Z. COURT OFFICER: hand, please.

Please come forward and be

State your name for the

David Hernandez,

Thank you.

Raise your right

(The witness was sworn. ) THE COURT: around. Please watch your step as you go

DAVID HERNANDEZ, a witness herein, having been first duly sworn to speak the truth and nothing but the truth, was examined and testified as follows:
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. in LULAC? A. 1988. I first started to become a member in LULAC in I was a college student at Phoenix College. And I was involved in an And Vice Mr. Hernandez, what is your background experience DIRECT EXAMINATION

president of MEChA group.

English-only campaign, anti English-only campaign. there, I was introduced into LULAC. And in 1989, I

organized and I'm the founder of the national LULAC young adult chapters for the national LULAC. Q. A. Q. A. Have you held any offices on the state level? I -- on state level, yes. Or district level, either one. I've been a council officer, council president, I've been deputy director for For Arizona,

vice president, secretary.

the district for young adults, for youth.

I've been deputy state director for youth and young adults. I've held numerous positions as appointed And currently I'm

official -- as an appointed official.

on the -- I'm one of a small group of people who is on the national civil rights committee for LULAC. Q. Do you have any other community offices or

participation?
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A.

I am.

I am also the vice chairman for the

Maricopa Merit Commission and the Maricopa Law Enforcement Commission. We hear appeals for all of Maricopa County

employees through discipline or termination, including the County Attorney's Office, sworn officers, and all 6,000 county employees. Q. Did you attend the Arizona state convention last

year in Tucson? A. Q. I did. And what was your role there at that convention

in June of 2013? A. I -- I served in a coup- -- a few capacities.

First and foremost, I was a volunteer and I was helping wherever I could, whether it's setup or take-down. But

official, I held -- the title of cochair for the election committee. committee. And I was also the cochair for the credentials And I was on the audit committee and on the

law and order committee. Q. And did you hear Mr. Soto's testimony --

Dr. Soto's testimony when he said that he went and attended the convention and so forth? during that time, were you not? A. Q. Yes, sir. He said that he was told by the people there at You were here

registration and so forth, and/or credentials or whatever
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the case may be, that he could just be registered and that that registration badge would entitle him to vote. recall him saying that? A. Q. I do recall him saying that, yes. And as part of the credentials committee and Do you

being there where registration was done, did anyone tell Mr. -- Dr. Soto that -- that just registering entitled him to be a delegate to vote? A. Q. correct? A. Q. Yes, sir. And there's been testimony that the registration But in two of the No, not to my knowledge. All right. Now, you're a named defendant;

time was changed and that whatever.

affidavits with their verified complaint, two of those wit- -- two of those affidavits that are supposedly class members or named plaintiffs say they arrived at 10:45; correct? A. Q. Yes, sir. And so under any circumstances, whether it closed

at 9:00 or 10:00, they arrived almost an hour late; correct? A. Q. They were late, yes, sir. Would they be entitled to -- to be seated as

delegates or to be credentialed if they arrived late?
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A.

At that time, they would not be able to be seated As participants in the

as credentialed delegates.

conference, yes, but not as certified delegates. Q. And that's without even getting to the issue of

whether they're members in good standing; right? A. Q. Correct. Because first you have to get the hurdle to be But let's put that aside. You

members in good standing.

still have to have a delegate letter; correct? A. Q. Yes, sir. And you have to arrive timely and register and

get credentialed with the delegate letter; correct? A. Q. Yes, sir. So if they arrived late, after registration and

credentialing had closed, they didn't have a delegate letter, why would -- why do you think they're making this demand they were not allowed to vote and they were improperly denied? Why do you think they're doing that?

Is there other agendas that may be playing into this? A. Yes. And I'm -- I'm aware of them firsthand.

The organization, Citizens for Better Arizona, of which Mr. Soto is a paid staff member of, Randy Parraz is the executive director of, they were approached by Domingo Garcia, a -- a quite successful Dallas attorney, personal injury, and basically told -- what I was told by Randy
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Parraz, on two occasions, to my face, was that Mr. Garcia had made a contribution of -- he made a few contributions to their organization. One through Recall Russell Pierce.

And that was before the convention. MR. FORD: Objection. Hearsay.

THE WITNESS: telling me directly. THE COURT: BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q.

This is what Mr. Parraz was

Sustained.

What else -- what else happened that brought your

attention that maybe this wasn't really about credentialing or being a delegate, that there was another agenda. Besides your conversations with Mr. Parraz, what

transpired there at the convention that day that showed that there was another agenda and maybe showed some concerns, on your behalf? A. Well, early on, after -- after the registration. MR. FORD: Objection as to relevance. Judge, they've been

MR. GUAJARDO:

testifying about this all the time. THE COURT: THE WITNESS: please. MR. GUAJARDO: BY MR. GUAJARDO:
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Overruled.

Overruled.

Could you repeat the question,

Yes.

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Q.

What concerns, if any, based on -- on your -- on

your having inquired about this situation with Randy Parraz group and so forth, what concerns, if any, did you have at the convention there that on -- on June 8th? A. Well, first and foremost, my main -- my main

concern was the safety and health of our delegates, our senior members. MR. FORD: Objection. Cumulative.

MR. GUAJARDO:

Your Honor, they've had --

they've had six witnesses and I'm entitled -THE COURT: BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. A. Mr. Hernandez? First and foremost, on the front of our minds, And we have -- as you Overruled.

were the safety of the delegates.

know, we have senior members, and we also have young children in the room. actually, physically. And I was told -- I was threatened, I was told to "F off" by Randy

Parraz, after I had informed -MR. FORD: THE COURT: THE WITNESS: THE COURT: THE WITNESS: Objection, hearsay. Overruled. It's what he told me. He actually heard it. Yeah. I was actually -- I had

gone out there to the credentials table approximately
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maybe 11 o'clock, 11:15.

I was called out there.

And

Randy Parraz, Beto Soto, his wife, Randy's wife, Lilia Alvarez, and other people, were present and were creating a disruption. Traffic could not come in and out of --

there was no ingress/egress for that -- in that area. I went up there and asked, you know, what was the problem, what can I help him with. And he told me that -- he was making references to the registration and that he wanted to register. And I told him, I says -- I told him, I says, you know, Randy, we have sent -- we have changed the deadline for registration four times for Randy, to accommodate him. early May. The registration deadline was first in Then it was

Then it was moved to mid May.

moved to June 1st. the registration.

And then it was moved to the day of At some point, I told Randy -- I said,

at some point in time, you know, we have to move on with our business. 9 o'clock was the deadline and you're late. And that's when he got into my face and he said -BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. Did the other senior citizens and the other

credential candidates, did they make an effort to get there on time and make the travel arrangements and so
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forth? A. We had several people from as -- from around the

state, from the Phoenix, Maricopa County area, from Yavapai County, from Pinal County, from Yuma County, La Paz County. We've had -- we had representatives from

around the state and they made it. Q. A. Q. A. Do you know a lady named Terri Cruz? I do. And how do you know her? Terri Cruz, affectionately people in the She is

community know her -- refer to her as our Madrina. one of the founders of Chicanos por la Causa, and a

madrina to a lot of Latino legislators, leaders, community leaders, and has been a LULAC member for over 40 or 50 years possibly, maybe even -Q. A. Q. How old is she? I believe she told me she was 85. And what, if any, concerns did -- did she express

to you regarding anything that she was concerned about? A. Well, as -- as she was -- as she was rightfully

seated as a delegate and trying to conduct business and be heard as a delegate, people from the Randy Parraz's group and Beto Soto's group were yelling at her. say, you're a bunch of old people. of power.
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I heard people

Don't want to let go

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Paul Castaneda, which is also on the board of CBA, had mentioned -- he had yelled out at the group, LULAC is irrelevant, insignificant in Arizona, and now I know why. So it was very hostile. It was -- it was a

very frightening situation to be in, you know, to be honest with you, because I wasn't so much frightened for myself, but I was frightened because I could see the faces of the elderly. Some people were sick. Some people And children

actually got up and walked out out of fear. started crying. Q. It was that toxic.

Now, you had asked for a legal opinion from the

legal advisor concerning Miguel Zazueta's member in good standing status; correct? A. Q. Yes, sir. And that was way before the -- your Tucson

convention, was it not? A. Q. A. councils. Yes, sir. How did that come about? I -- I was a sponsor for one of the -- for six I actually met with Randy Parraz, and I am one

of the signatories to sponsoring six -- of the 50-something councils they're referring to, I signed off on -- on six of them. Q. So what was your concern regarding Miguel
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Zazueta's standing? A. Oh -- and I'm sorry. So to answer your question,

so I had a question, because since I was a sponsor, I wanted to know what -- what effect, if any, if I -- if I withdrew my name as a sponsor, you know, what effect would that have. Q. And that was the gist of our conversation.

And did you have concerns because you had become

to suspect Miguel Zazueta was not a member in good standing? A. I did not know Miguel Zazueta was a member not in

good standing until the day of the convention. Q. Okay. And the legal opinion actually was dated It was dated June 12th, I believe.

after the convention. A. Q. Yes, sir. All right.

So but, in fact, after the

convention, you did request a legal opinion from the legal advisor in that regard? MR. FORD: Objection. Leading the witness.

MR. GUAJARDO: Your Honor.

It's already in evidence,

Just trying to save time. THE COURT: THE WITNESS: Overruled. Yes, sir, I did.

BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. point?
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Why did you ask for a legal opinion at that

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A.

Because it -- it -- there was -- since there was

official action taken at the state convention and we were being threatened by Pablo Martinez that they were going to sue us and take us to court. Domingo also mentioned he's

going to sue us and take us to court. Q. A. Q. Was Domingo Garcia president at the convention? Yes, he was. Was he involved in -- as a part of that, did you

say that he was with Randy Parraz's group? A. Q. I would say he was one of the ringleaders, yes. All right. And was Domingo Garcia and Randy

Parraz and the other people with him disruptive in your opinion? A. Q. as well? A. Héctor Flores, past national president, yes, he Absolutely. Okay. What about Héctor Flores? Did he show up

Q.

And what if anything was your concerns with

regards to his involvement in that -- at that particular time? A. Well, my -- my concern is that, first they come

uninvited, and Pablo Martinez, being from New Mexico was also not invited to the convention; they showed up. But

they seemed to walk around the convention and leveraging
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their weight as past national officer.

Mr. Martinez was

leveraging the fact that he was former law enforcement, and why he was saying that, I don't know. to -Q. A. Q. Arizona? A. No, sir. Mr. Héctor Flores, to -- to answer your Are they eligible to vote in Arizona? No, they're not. -- state convention since they're not even from Maybe as a way

question more direct with Mr. Héctor Flores, being a past national president, you would assume they would know the constitution very well. He tried to circumvent the

constitution by saying that he has a right to vote in Arizona by virtue of him being a past national president, which is not a true. And he was disruptive. And when

Mari Alvarado was trying to conduct the election, he stood up, was not in the observer area, encroached upon the delegates, and threw a -- basically waved a constitution in my face and saying, I have a right to vote. And I

said, no, sir, you do not have a right to vote in Arizona. Q. Arizona? A. Q. A. No. He's from New Mexico. Correct. I don't think Mr. -480.227.4077 www.TAtrans.com TRUAUDIO TRANSCRIBERS, LLC

Did Pablo Martinez have a right to vote in

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Q. election? A. Q.

Wouldn't he have a right to vote in a New Mexico

Well, Mr. -Assuming that there was state convention in New

Mexico, would that entitle him to vote over there, maybe? A. As former -- as a past state director, as he

states himself to be, he would be eligible to have a vote as a past state director, in New Mexico only. Q. Did you perceive -- did you perceive anything as

a hidden agenda in spite of -- that these people were not eligible to vote and that they then proceed to have their own election in the back? did you make of all this? A. What, if anything, did you -Why -- why was --

They knew they didn't follow the procedures, and

they basically tried to disrupt and prevent us from having our convention. Q. And they had -- did they hold their own

convention in the back? A. Q. A. They did. And they elected their own slate? Right. We did have to call the campus security, They were able to pull

which are actually sworn officers.

Randy aside and tell him, you know, that he's out of order. And we -- we ended the convention minutes after

that, and the police asked us to -- to leave the building
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so nobody gets hurt. right then after that.

You know, so people started to leave

At that point in time, that's when Miguel Zazueta, who is not here, or has not been here, was elected state director in conjunction with a deputy state director. And their slate of officers actually were

actually delegates, certified delegates, in our seated delegation. Maria de Pinzon, the director for youth, And

Leticia Aragon were actually seated delegates.

Frances Rascon, which was the deputy state director, on his slate, were -- was actually a seated delegate with the authority and the ability to make any motions, concerns on the convention floor. convention. Immediately thereafter, they conducted their own illegal convention, of which they publicized publicly, to public officials, to community allies via press release and through Facebook. MR. GUAJARDO: Your Honor. THE COURT: MR. FORD: Cross examination? A couple questions, Your Honor. We pass the witness, They did nothing during our

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CROSS-EXAMINATION

You were testifying that, Mr. Hernandez, that you

addressed at one point Randy Parraz and his wife Lilia Alvarez and some people from that group; is that correct? A. Q. I -- I missed the front part of that question. You were testifying earlier that you addressed --

you came up and addressed or spoke with Randy and Lilia and some people in their group; is that correct? A. If you're referring at the registration table at

11:15-ish, yes. Q. A. Q. Oh, 11:15? 11:00, 11:15, around there. So is that your -- now your testimony as to when

that happened? A. Well, I testified that approximately 11:00,

11:15, I was called to the registration table because there was a commotion, there was a disturbance there. if that's what you're referring to -MR. FORD: THE COURT: Move to strike all the ancillary. Overruled. He was giving -- he And

was explaining the time frame. BY MR. FORD: Q. How many -- in your estimation, how many people

were present at that convention?
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A.

How many people, including Congressman Grijalva

and senators and elected officials or just -- just delegates or participants? Q. A. Q. A. Well, start with people. How many people?

How many people, including guest speakers and -Estimate. -- sponsors and everything? I would say about

Q.

And how many were seated to vote?

How many

delegates who were? A. Q. A. Q. Certified --- purportedly credentialed were seated to vote? Properly certified delegates were 82. 82. And how many do you estimate to have been in the group that you mentioned from Phoenix, who you purport to have been led by Randy Parraz? A. I don't have the registration forms or their But

delegate letters, because they never submitted those.

according to email streams that I was involved in, he made a request for 35 meals, so I'm assuming he had about 35 people there present. than that. Q. You had mentioned earlier, you referred to some So people He may have had maybe a few more

people who were present as, quote, "uninvited."
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have to be invited to these conventions? invitation process?

Is there an

Is there something in the

constitution we haven't discussed yet today that goes into that? A. Well, there's nothing in the constitution. But

there -- it is protocol and -Q. A. What's protocol? Protocol is if you're visiting a state that

you're not a member of, it is protocol to at least let the leader of that, whether it's the district or state, that you're present, because also -- it's also out of courtesy, because we like to also recognize those out-of-town guests. Q. We generally have a reception -Okay. So you -- you're referring to some people Some people are guests. Were these people

as uninvited.

uninvited or were they guests? A. Pablo Martinez was the first time I ever met So he -- he was not an invited guest. We welcomed him,

Pablo Martinez.

Héctor Flores was not an invited guest.

and we fed them, and we treated them as nicely as we can. But they were not technically invited guests, no, sir. Q. Right. But you're now conflating two things. So we're going to

You said uninvited and you said guests. leave all those terms aside.

But other than to say, is there a process
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for inviting people to these conventions? A. Q. Is there a process, a formal process? Yeah, is there a formal -- did you send out Kind of like when people get married,

formal invitations?

they send out invitations, did you send out invitations to people to come to this convention? A. Generally what happens, sir, is that the state --

when the -- when the -- our convention is announced, it is then put on to -- for the current board of directors and current vice presidents, they are -- they are notified that there is a state convention occurring. Sometimes

guests or -- not guests -- I'm sorry -- let's stay away from that word -- but candidates, people that are trying to pass resolutions, people that are trying to get convention sites at their city, they would come to the convention. But, again, it's always the protocol that

they do ask -Q. invited. You have yet to address whether people are Is it the practice or protocol to invite people

to your -- to these conventions? A. Q. A. Q. A. It is a protocol -Yes or no? -- to invite, yes, sir. And what form do these invitations take? Formal invitations, such as in writing, emails,
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and phone calls, face-to-face. Q. invited? A. I would imagine that they are welcome to come. I So were all the delegates seated, all 82 of them

don't know necessarily if it was an invitation -Q. Okay. So if they weren't invited, were they

uninvited, kind of like these other people you described? A. Well, I wouldn't say that I invited anybody,

uninvited anybody. Q. Isn't it true, in fact, that campus police

refused to get involved in the alleged commotion that occurred? A. Q. That's not true, sir. Isn't it true that once leaders realized that

they weren't going to get involved, they ended the meeting? A. Q. I'm sorry. Say that again.

Isn't it true that once leaders did realize that

campus police weren't going to get involved, they ended the meeting? A. Okay. I heard the last part. The very first

part I kind of missed. Q. Is it not true, that once the leaders running the

meeting -A. Leaders okay.
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Q.

Realized that the campus police were not going to

get involved, that they just ended the meeting? A. Q. Not true. In what way was -- you described -- it appears

that the group that was -- that was denied the ability to vote that day from Phoenix, you -- you have alleged that they held an illegal, quote unquote, meeting. illegal? How was it

Was it against -- is there a statute or a law?

And if so, did the police stop them? A. Well, it's not illegal in the community sense of But unconstitutional, yes. You

the word, you know.

cannot -- we're an organization of constitution, and we have -- what they did was unconstitutional. Q. If they hold an expert convention meeting, is it

unconstitutional? A. Q. A. Q. A. They can have meetings, sure. Is that not what they did? No. That's not what they did, sir.

What is it they did? They actually held a convention. They actually

held the election portion of a convention and voted by acclamation a slate of people that half of them were certified delegates in the true and accurate state convention. Q. Who told you you needed to get a legal opinion
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from Manuel Escobar on Miguel Zazueta? A. I don't know -- no one told me to get one. It

was when I felt that when we were threatened by -- to be -- that we're going to be sued, I just wanted to make sure that we had everything in order, and I wanted -- I want -- I followed up with Manuel Escobar and said, you know, the conversation that we had, I need that in writing, and this is a set of circumstances, now, with -as it relates to Miguel Zazueta. hypothetical. Before, I had a

Now we had a real-life situation that I

wanted an opinion, a written opinion on. Q. Have you ever requested a legal opinion before

from the LULAC counsel? A. Yes, I have. But not myself directly. Usually, But in this

you know, someone else will carry that water. situation, I did make that request. Q. yourself? carriers? A.

So is that saying you haven't done that before I'm just asking about you, not other water

Have I -- have I personally asked for a legal The answer is, no, sir.

opinion before? Q.

Did you know that on the rendering of a legal

opinion, when you ask for it, that it would take a two-thirds vote to have the legal opinion set aside? A. That's typically the -- the procedures of LULAC,
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yes, constitutional procedures. Q. A. So in your case, is the answer yes? Can you repeat that question? THE COURT: I'm sorry.

He asked if you knew it would

require two-thirds vote to set it aside. THE WITNESS: know that to be true. Is that tied to the question of what -- to Miguel Zazueta's and this legal opinion? No. I wasn't I -- did I know that? I -- I

doing it because I was trying to receive a supermajority or something like that, no. I just wanted to know for

Arizona's purposes for -- for the conduct of peaceful business in Arizona, I wanted to know whether -- where they stood. MR. FORD: Nothing further.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. A. Q. Were you present at the national convention, sir? Yes, sir. Was there an observation area in the assembly

where myself as VIP or someone else could sit and observe and not be where the delegates were seated? A. There was a section reserved in the back that --

I -- where I did notice you and I did notice some other
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individuals that did not have delegate badges. know where that ended or not.

I don't

I do know that to go into

the seated area, there was sergeant of arms that were checking for badges. badges. And, yes, they were checking for

So to answer your question, I do believe there

was an observation area and that would have been towards the back of the room. Q. What -- what role, if any, did you play there at Did you serve any capacity?

the national? A.

I was a member of the site collection committee No, it's

for the convention for 2017, I think it is. 2016.

And I was also a certified delegate, and I was

sitting with my delegation, Arizona, in the front of the auditorium. Q. And so you were actually a voting delegate at the

national convention; correct? A. Q. Yes, sir. Did you attend all the sessions where the

elections were held for the national president and so forth? A. I -- I was there all day Saturday. I was not

there the night before when they were actually doing the seating of the delegates, but I was there for the election portion, yes, sir. Q. And for the election portion, did you see the
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election judge? A. Q. A. Q. Yes, sir. And you know where that was? Mr. Rocha, yes, sir. And do you know whether he had some counters that

were assisting him? A. Q. Yes, sir. Do you know -- were you there when the motion was

made to seat the Arizona delegation? A. Q. Yes, sir. There was -- there was a vote called, I think --

I think Rick Dovalina or something made a motion to seat the delegation. A. Q. Do you recall that?

Yes, sir. What transpired after the motion? Was there a

vote taken? A. After the motion was made, there was the ability He was uninterrupted. There He

for Mr. Soto to give a speech.

had the full, I think, 3 or 5 minutes to speak.

was -- as you know, in Robert's Rules, there's one for, one against and you go back and forth. to speak against. But nobody got up

They gave Mr. Soto carte blanche to

address the convention. After he spoke and addressed the convention, they then proceeded with the -- with the division of vote.
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And Mr. Soto then went up to the podium where -- it's the riser -- held up a sign saying "We are Arizona." they -- they started the count of the vote. was present for that. And

And -- and I

I stood up on my seat, and I did

take a look at -- at the rest of the assembly as well. Q. Okay. And was Mr. Rocha and his three counters

also assisting in taking the count, as far as you know? A. Q. Yes, sir. You were up front because you're with the Arizona

delegation. A. Right. We were right -- I was in the front row. Yes, the -- the counters are They had the former

I was in the front row.

up -- were up on the risers.

presidents that are actually supporters of Mr. Domingo Garcia and were part of the Arizona convention were present there as well. So not only did you have the

counters up there looking and observing, but then you have board members, former presidents that are actually supporters of Mr. Garcia, and they all witnessed the same. Q. That would include Pablo Martinez and Héctor

Flores and Rick Dovalina, perhaps? A. Héctor Flores, Rick Dovalina. Pablo Martinez, he I don't know

was walking around the convention floor. what -- I didn't watch him. Q.

What -- what was the vote result, if you know, as
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to whether or not they had the two-thirds vote? A. It was very clear that they didn't. There was

three -- the convention floor is divided in three sections of about maybe 500 seats in three rows there. One row was They

comprised mainly of the Northeast and Puerto Rico. were entirely not in favor of seating the Arizona

delegates or actually going against the legal opinion. Then the side that I was sitting on, which is not in the middle, but on the opposite side, there was about, I would say about two-thirds. California, Midwest states. And in the middle was Texas, and Texas was about, in my opinion, about 60/40 split. It was clearly That was Arizona,

not even 50 percent of the -- of the -- of the support. It was actually just the opposite. motion. Q. One-third in favor of it. So you're saying it wasn't even close. They Two-thirds against the

didn't even get anywhere near the two-thirds? A. Q. No, sir, not at all. Do you recall whether or not Domingo Garcia

withdrew his candidacy then? A. Q. He did, yes, sir. And do you recall what he -- what he said, the

reason that he was withdrawing? A. I do recall him giving a speech about building
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unity.

And then he basically encouraged all of his

delegates to support Mary Ramos, his -- his, I guess, handpicked successor, I guess, for lack of a better word. MR. FORD: THE COURT: BY MR. GUAJARDO: Q. Did anybody challenge or properly challenge that Objection. Overruled.

decision by going to the legal advisor and making a proper challenge? A. No, sir. And, you know, if Domingo himself, the

candidate that benefits directly, had the podium and microphone, and he could have addressed the audience at that time. You know, I think what -- at the time, it was

so definitively against them, that that is what compelled, I believe, Domingo to get up and withdrew, because he didn't have the numbers. It just -- they were -- it was

just overwhelmingly against Domingo Garcia. Q. Would it have made a difference to -- if the 144

or 148 people had been seated and voted in his favor? A. Q. No, sir. How did you see, if -- you know, if I asked you

what percentage or how much what ratio Domingo had or Margaret had versus his, what -A. Well, the -- the only -- the only thing that I

could compare that to would be to the vote taken on the
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issue of the legal opinion.

And it was clearly two-thirds

in favor of the legal opinion -- upholding the legal opinion. Only one-third was actually this favor of

Domingo's position and Mr. Soto's position. MR. GUAJARDO: Your Honor. Okay. No further questions,

Pass the witness. MR. FORD: THE COURT: A couple. That was redirect.

Are you going to have any more witnesses, Mr. Guajardo. We're running out of time. MR. GUAJARDO: any further, Your Honor. THE COURT: Okay. I have one question, and Well, I don't -- I don't have

then I'm going to allow some follow-up to my question, relative to it. When did you contact Mr. Escobar verbally about Mr. Zazueta's good standing or lack thereof? THE WITNESS: Mr. Zazueta's standing

specifically was after the Arizona state convention. THE COURT: Did you contact him before the

convention about any of the standing issues or any of the delegate issues? THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, I did. But not

about Miguel Zazueta directly.

It was about the -- the

function of the sponsor, of the signatory, the cosponsor.
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THE COURT:

And when did you make that

THE WITNESS:

It was an ongoing

I think it began in maybe the end of

April and I have not -- I did not get a -- a -- something in writing. writing. I did get an answer, but not an answer in

And when -- when the similar circumstances arose

in the Arizona state convention, that's when we wanted -we needed to get something in writing to back up what I was told verbally. THE COURT: And for the written -- when you

asked for the written opinion, did you ask for it in writing or just verbally? THE WITNESS: For the written opinion, that

was written for June 11th or 12, I asked for that in writing, sir. THE COURT: Okay. Any follow-up to that?

MR. GUAJARDO: MR. FORD: THE COURT:

No, Your Honor, thank you.

No, thank you. Okay. Thank you, you may step

Written closings? MR. FORD: THE COURT: MR. FORD: Yes. Okay. How long do you want?

Well, I need time to get the

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transcripts, that's two, three weeks. (indiscernible) a month. THE COURT: Hopefully.

Maybe,

Do you want to do simultaneous,

or you want to do closing and response -MR. GUAJARDO: MR. FORD: Your Honor. THE COURT: closings due -MR. GUAJARDO: Can I -- can I get about a Why don't we do simultaneous Simultaneous is fine.

Simultaneous is fine with me,

week afterwards, that way I can -- since I can reply to their -- just a week afterwards, after theirs -THE COURT: Okay. Why -- why don't we give

plaintiffs till March 14th and Mr. Guajardo until March 21. MR. FORD: Your Honor, could I request you

just do -- we do simultaneous closings and simultaneous replies. THE COURT: MR. FORD: way. THE COURT: March 14th. Simultaneous closings, Sure. Okay. I prefer to do it that

Simultaneous replies, March 21st. MR. FORD: Fantastic. Thank you. What was the

MR. GUAJARDO:

I'm sorry.

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dates again? THE COURT: March 14th and March 21st. That

gives you a month and then a week. Anything else, Mr. Ford? MR. GUAJARDO: MR. FORD: THE COURT: Nothing further, Your Honor.

Nothing further. Okay. Thank you. And thank you

all of you for sitting their patiently and staying awake. That's not a slur on any of the attorneys. It's just what

we do is not interesting to most people except us. MR. FORD: anything. (The proceedings concluded at 4:42 p.m.) * * * It's not an extreme sport or

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I, DEBRA RIGGS TORRES, do hereby certify that the 304 pages contained herein constitute a full, accurate transcript, from electronic recording, of the proceedings had in the foregoing matter, all done to the best of my skill and ability. SIGNED and dated this 22d day of March, 2014.

/s/ Debra Riggs Torres TruAudio Transcribers Arizona CR No. 50647