Scott L.

Wallace, RDR, CRR, Official Court Reporter
(202)354-3196 * scottlyn01@aol.com
1
UNI TED STATES DI STRI CT COURT
FOR THE DI STRI CT OF COLUMBI A
JUDICIAL WATCH, INCORPORATED,
Plaintiff,
v.
INTERNAL REVENUE SERVICE,
Defendant.
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Ci vi l Act i on
No. 13- 1559
J ul y 10, 2014
11: 10 a. m.
Washi ngt on, D. C.
TRANSCRIPT OF STATUS CALL PROCEEDINGS
BEFORE THE HONORABLE EMMET G. SULLIVAN
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT JUDGE
APPEARANCES:
For t he Pl ai nt i f f : Ramona Raula Cotca, Esq.
J UDI CI AL WATCH, I N
425 Thi r d St r eet , SW
Sui t e 800
Washi ngt on, DC 20024
( 202) 646- 5172
Fax: ( 202) 646- 5199
Emai l : Rcot ca@j udi ci al wat ch. or g
Paul J. Orfanedes, Esq.
J UDI CI AL WATCH, I NC.
425 Thi r d St r eet , SW
Sui t e 800
Washi ngt on, DC 20024
( 202) 646- 5172
Fax: ( 202) 646- 5199
For t he Def endant : Geoffrey John Klimas, Esq.
U. S. DEPARTMENT OF J USTI CE
P. O. Box 227
Washi ngt on, DC 20044
( 202) 307- 6346
Emai l : Geof f r ey. j . kl i mas@usdoj . gov
Scott L. Wallace, RDR, CRR, Official Court Reporter
(202)354-3196 * scottlyn01@aol.com
2
APPEARANCES: ( Cont . )
On behal f of t he
Def endant s:
Carmen M. Banerjee, Esq.
U. S. DEPARTMENT OF J USTI CE
Tax Di vi si on - Ci vi l Tr i al Sect i on
555 Four t h St r eet , NW
Sui t e 6810
Washi ngt on, DC 20001
( 202) 307- 6423
Emai l : Car men. m. baner j ee@usdoj . gov
Cour t Repor t er : Scott L. Wallace, RDR, CRR
Of f i ci al Cour t Repor t er
Room6503, U. S. Cour t house
Washi ngt on, D. C. 20001
202. 354. 3196
scot t l yn01@aol . com
Pr oceedi ngs r epor t ed by machi ne shor t hand, t r anscr i pt pr oduced
by comput er - ai ded t r anscr i pt i on.
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Scott L. Wallace, RDR, CRR, Official Court Reporter
(202)354-3196 * scottlyn01@aol.com
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MORNING SESSION, JULY 10, 2014
( 11: 10 a. m. )
THE COURTROOM CLERK: Your Honor , t hi s i s Ci vi l Act i on
13- 1559, Judicial Watch, Inc. versus Internal Revenue Service.
Wi l l al l par t i es pl ease come f or war d and i dent i f y your sel ves f or
t he r ecor d, pl ease.
MS. COTCA: Good mor ni ng, Your Honor , Ramona Cot ca f or
J udi ci al Wat ch, and Paul Or f anedes, al so at counsel t abl e.
THE COURT: Good mor ni ng t o you bot h.
MR. KLI MAS: Good mor ni ng, Your Honor , J ef f Kl i mas f or t he
def endant I nt er nal Revenue Ser vi ce. Wi t h me at counsel t abl e i s
Car men Baner j ee, al so wi t h t he Depar t ment of J ust i ce, Tax
Di vi si on.
THE COURT: Good mor ni ng t o you bot h. Let me hear f r om
pl ai nt i f f ' s counsel . You asked f or a st at us hear i ng, so t el l me
why you want ed i t .
MS. COTCA: Cer t ai nl y, Your Honor . The r eason t hat we
submi t t ed t hi s mot i on i s because we wer e al ar med i n t he r ecent
weeks t o f i nd out - - t hi s i s a FOI A l i t i gat i on, as you know - - t o
f i nd out t hat a subst ant i al number of t he r ecor ds t hat wer e
r equest ed as par t of t hi s l awsui t have appar ent l y gone mi ssi ng.
We wer e al ar med.
THE COURT: Your r equest was f or r ecor ds f r omwhat ,
J anuar y 1, 2010 t o t he pr esent ; i s t hat r i ght ?
MS. COTCA: Cor r ect , cor r ect , Your Honor . We wer e al ar med
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t o l ear n t hat - - Our r equest cover ed a t hr ee- year span of
r ecor ds, and, appar ent l y, al most t wo year s of t hose r ecor ds have
gone mi ssi ng. That ' s a subst ant i al - -
THE COURT: How di d you l ear n t hat ?
MS. COTCA: We l ear ned i t t hr ough t he news, Your Honor .
We di dn' t l ear n i t f r omdef ense counsel , and t hat ' s t he second
par t of t hi s i ssue and t he r eason we r equest ed t hi s st at us
conf er ence, i s because we have conf er r ed, per t he Cour t ' s or der
i n J anuar y. I have been engagi ng i n conver sat i ons wi t h def ense
counsel dur i ng t he cour se of t hi s l i t i gat i on and never has t he
I RS, t he def endant her e, di scl osed t hat t hey' r e mi ssi ng a l ar ge
chunk of t hese e- mai l s.
THE COURT: Was t he gover nment under a l egal obl i gat i on t o
make t hat di scl osur e?
MS. COTCA: Wel l , Your Honor , i t i s. I t ' s a subst ant i al
number of t he r ecor ds t hat have - - t hat wer e r equest ed and - -
THE COURT: Let me r ephr ase t hat .
MS. COTCA: Okay.
THE COURT: At some poi nt , of cour se t he gover nment i s
under an obl i gat i on, but dur i ng t he r equi si t e t i mef r ame we' r e
t al ki ng about , t he l ast si x mont hs or so - - what ' s t he t i mef r ame
t hat you' ve descr i bed as bei ng t he r el evant t i mef r ame f or t he
gover nment ' s obl i gat i ons t o di scl ose t he f act t hat e- mai l s wer e
mi ssi ng?
MS. COTCA: When t he gover nment f ound out about i t , and
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t he news r epor t s and t he t est i mony t hat t he I RS commi ssi oner has
pr ovi ded bef or e Congr ess i s t hat t he gover nment , t he I RS, knew
about t hi s i n Febr uar y.
THE COURT: Febr uar y of t hi s year ?
MS. COTCA: Febr uar y of t hi s year .
THE COURT: Ri ght .
MS. COTCA: That ' s t he same t i me t hat t he I RS had
i ni t i al l y st ar t ed t o pr oduce document s i n our case her e. That i s
- - Two mont hs l at er , i n Apr i l , t he gover nment had pr oduced a
st at us r epor t t o t hi s Cour t wi t h r espect t o t he pr ogr ess of t he
sear ch and t he pr oduct i on i n t hi s case.
THE COURT: Al l r i ght . So i n ei t her Febr uar y or Apr i l ,
was t he gover nment under some l egal obl i gat i on t o say t o t he
pl ai nt i f f , we j ust di scover ed t hat some e- mai l s ar e mi ssi ng? And
i f so, what does t hat l egal obl i gat i on come f r om?
MS. COTCA: Wel l , t he l egal obl i gat i on, Your Honor , comes
f r omt he f act t hat t hey have t o conduct a sear ch t hat i s
r easonabl y cal cul at ed t o di scover and uncover al l r el evant
i nf or mat i on.
THE COURT: I got t hat , I have t hat , but I ' msayi ng,
what ' s t he l egal obl i gat i on? At what poi nt does t hi s l egal
obl i gat i on, and I ' mi nt er est ed i n wher e t hi s obl i gat i on spr i ngs
f r om, at what poi nt does t hat r equi r e t he gover nment t o say, l o
and behol d, we j ust l ear ned t hat some e- mai l s ar e mi ssi ng?
What ' s t he pr ecedent f or t hat ?
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MS. COTCA: Wel l , t hey' r e mat er i al quest i ons of f act her e
wi t h r espect t o t he sear ch t hat ' s bei ng conduct ed, and t hat ' s t he
l egal pr ecedent her e, because we don' t have any conf i dence t hat a
pr oper sear ch i s bei ng conduct ed.
THE COURT: I under st and what you' r e sayi ng, but I ' m
concer ned about what t he l egal aut hor i t y i s t hat woul d have
r equi r ed t he gover nment , as a mat t er of l aw, t o have t ol d you i n
ei t her Febr uar y or J anuar y or some day pr i or t o t oday' s dat e t hat
t her e ar e e- mai l s t hat t he gover nment can' t f i nd? Wher e i s t hat
l egal - - at what poi nt does t he l egal obl i gat i on t o make t hat
di scl osur e ki ck i n?
MS. COTCA: Wel l , our posi t i on i s t hat one of t he pl aces
wher e t hat l egal obl i gat i on comes f r omi s f r omt he Cour t ' s or der
t hat t he gover nment has t o pr ovi de di scl osur e wi t h r espect t o t he
st at us of i t s sear ch, and t he f act t hat t he I RS, t he def endant
her e, has not di scl osed t hat , r ai ses ser i ous quest i ons t hat t he
sear ch t hat t hey' r e doi ng i s i nadequat e.
THE COURT: Asi de f r ommy or der , t hough, ar e you awar e of
any pr ecedent or aut hor i t y, any Ci r cui t aut hor i t y, or Di st r i ct
Cour t aut hor i t y or Supr eme Cour t aut hor i t y t hat woul d have
r equi r ed t he gover nment , as a mat t er of l aw, t o say we j ust f ound
out t hat e- mai l s ar e mi ssi ng?
MS. COTCA: Your Honor , I t hi nk we woul d st and by t he
Cour t ' s or der t hat I t hi nk - -
THE COURT: - - so t he Cour t ' s or der - -
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MS. COTCA: - - t hat t he obl i gat i on - -
THE COURT: I st and on my or der s al so. I s t her e any ot her
aut hor i t y ot her t han my or der ? I ' mnot mi ni mi zi ng my or der
ei t her , now, al l r i ght .
MS. COTCA: I under st and, Your Honor , I under st and.
THE COURT: But you r ai se an i nt er est i ng i ssue. I mean,
t her e ar e a l ot of movi ng pi eces her e. As I under st and i t , and I
don' t know ever yt hi ng about what ' s goi ng on on Capi t ol Hi l l , but
t her e i s a Congr essi onal i nqui r y goi ng on; i s t hat cor r ect ?
MS. COTCA: Cor r ect , Your Honor .
THE COURT: And I don' t know what r epr esent at i ons t he
gover nment has made t o t he i nqui r i ng commi t t ee about l ost
e- mai l s. That ' s an ongoi ng - - i s t hat an ongoi ng - -
MS. COTCA: - - f r omour under st andi ng - -
THE COURT: - - pr ocess?
MS. COTCA: The i nf or mat i on t hat we have t hat I gat her
f r omt he pr ess f r oml i st eni ng t o t he news i s t hat t hi s i s an
ongoi ng i nvest i gat i on. Ther e was a TI GTA r epor t t hat had come
out i n May of 2013 wi t h r espect t o t he I RS t r eat ment t o t ea
par t y' s appl i cat i ons - - t ea par t y or gani zat i ons' appl i cat i ons t o
t he I RS, and t hat i s what pr ompt ed and t hat ' s t he r eason t hat we
submi t t ed our FOI A r equest r equest i ng Ms. Loi s Ler ner ' s e- mai l s
f or t hi s t i mef r ame, and si nce t hen t her e has been a number of
i nvest i gat i ons and hear i ngs t hat have been conduct ed on t he Hi l l
wi t h r espect t o t he I RS and t o Loi s Ler ner ' s i nvol vement wi t h
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r espect t o t he t ea par t y - -
THE COURT: Shoul d t he Cour t j ust wai t unt i l t hose - -
unt i l t hat i nvest i gat i on has been compl et ed, t he Congr essi onal
i nqui r y, si nce t hat st ar t ed some t i me ago, I t hi nk, di dn' t i t ?
MS. COTCA: I don' t bel i eve - - Wel l , our posi t i on i s no,
t he Cour t shoul d not wai t unt i l - -
THE COURT: Because FOI A i s separ at e and apar t f r om
what ever may be pr oceedi ng on Capi t ol Hi l l .
MS. COTCA: Absol ut el y.
THE COURT: When you f ound out f r omnews r epor t s t hat t he
gover nment had r epr esent ed t o Congr essi onal i nvest i gat or s t hat
e- mai l s wer e mi ssi ng, di d you pi ck t he phone up and cal l your
opposi ng counsel and say, Why di dn' t you t el l us t hi s?
MS. COTCA: Wel l , f i r st what I di d, what I per sonal l y di d
i s I got onl i ne and I conduct ed a si gni f i cant r esear ch t o
under st and what t he news r epor t s wer e al l about .
THE COURT: Di d you f i nd t hose e- mai l s?
MS. COTCA: No, Your Honor , t hey' r e - - I di dn' t f i nd t hem.
THE COURT: Al l r i ght . You di d some r esear ch. Di d you
r each out t o opposi ng counsel , t hough?
MS. COTCA: Yes, we di d, we di d.
THE COURT: Good, good.
MS. COTCA: And opposi ng counsel i n t hi s case had
absol ut el y no i nf or mat i on, and t hi s i s t he r eason we st r ess why
we bel i eve t her e' s an i nadequat e sear ch bei ng done. They wer en' t
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even abl e t o i dent i f y t he i ndi vi dual s whose comput er s had been
cr ashed. They wer e unabl e t o pr ovi de absol ut el y anyt hi ng, ot her
t han what t he t est i mony was pr ovi ded by t he I RS commi ssi oner t o
Congr ess. That shows t o us, Your Honor , t hat t hey have done
not hi ng, t hey have not l ooked t o see who el se may have been
moni t or i ng Ms. Ler ner ' s e- mai l s, i f i ndeed t hese e- mai l s ar e
mi ssi ng, so, per haps, we can l ook somewher e el se. They di dn' t
have any of t hose quest i ons answer ed when we spoke wi t h t hem, and
t hat was ver y t r oubl i ng.
THE COURT: Wel l , what i s i t t hat you' r e aski ng t he Cour t
t o do? I want t he r ecor d t o be cl ear , t her e' s not a - - t her e' s
no mot i on pendi ng bef or e t he Cour t f or any r el at ed - - i t ' s a
st at us hear i ng, and I r ead i t and I t hought i t was appr opr i at e t o
gr ant a st at us hear i ng t o gi ve t he pl ai nt i f f an oppor t uni t y t o be
hear d and gi ve t he gover nment a chance t o r espond.
MS. COTCA: Ri ght , and t hat was our f i r st st ep, and we
t hought t hi s was pr udent . Thi s i s mat er i al i nf or mat i on wi t h
r espect t o t hi s case, and t hat ' s why we t hought i t was
appr opr i at e t o br i ng i t bef or e t he Cour t f or a st at us hear i ng.
Because of - - and we woul d l i ke t o hear f r omt he I RS and f r omt he
def endant what happened, what i s t he st at us.
But past t hat , t hi s r ai ses a number of quest i ons, mat er i al
quest i ons of f act wi t h r espect t o t he sear ch, so we woul d ask t he
Cour t t o conduct some f or mof i nvest i gat i on or per mi t some ver y
l i mi t ed di scover y wi t h r espect t o what happened, who knows about
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i t , wher e - - ar e t her e ot her sour ces t hat def endant can l ook at
t o r et r i eve t hese e- mai l s, when di d t he gover nment know about
t hi s? Because agai n, t hat ' s per t i nent wi t h r espect t o t hei r
di scl osur e t o t he Cour t and t o J udi ci al Wat ch, so i t woul d be
ver y l i mi t ed, but we woul d ask f or some f or mof i nvest i gat i on or
di scover y.
THE COURT: Al l r i ght . I j ust became awar e t he day bef or e
yest er day t hat one of my col l eagues, J udge Wal t on, has a si mi l ar
case. I ' mnot goi ng t o say i t ' s r el at ed wi t hi n t he meani ng of
t he r ul es because I don' t know t hat much about t hat case at al l ,
but I j ust r ai se t he quest i on. Fi r st of al l , ar e you f ami l i ar
wi t h t hat case?
MS. COTCA: I know of i t , yes, Your Honor .
THE COURT: Al l r i ght . I s i t an anal ogous case?
MS. COTCA: Wel l , Your Honor , i t has t o do wi t h t he Tr ue
t he Vot e case agai nst t he I RS, i f i t ' s t he case t hat I ' mt hi nki ng
of t hat ' s bef or e J udge Wal t on t omor r ow, but t hey have a di r ect
cause of act i on wi t h r espect t o Tr ue t he Vot e' s appl i cat i on, so
i t ' s a l i t t l e bi t di f f er ent because at t hat poi nt t hey' r e at t he
j unct ur e of a mot i on, a mot i on t o di smi ss.
THE COURT: They asked f or pr el i mi nar y i nj unct i ve r el i ef .
MS. COTCA: Cor r ect , cor r ect . We ar e i n t he pr ocess, and
t he r eason t hi s case i s di f f er ent - - i t ' s a FOI A l i t i gat i on, but
we' r e al r eady i n t he pr ocess of t he gover nment pr oduci ng
document s.
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THE COURT: And t he gover nment i s pr oduci ng document s.
MS. COTCA: And t he gover nment i s pr oduci ng document s, and
t he gover nment i s conduct i ng i t s sear ch of t he r ecor ds, but we
have ser i ous quest i ons as t o t he adequacy and r easonabl eness of
t hat sear ch.
THE COURT: Ri ght . Wel l , t he poi nt I was get t i ng at i s
whet her or not under our l ocal r ul es t he t wo cases shoul d be
consol i dat ed bef or e one j udge as r el at ed. And agai n, I don' t
know enough about J udge Wal t on' s case t o have an i nf or med opi ni on
about t hat .
MS. COTCA: Um, I don' t t hi nk i t woul d be appr opr i at e.
THE COURT: We do t r y t o pr eser ve j udi ci al r esour ces, i f
he' s pur sui ng t he same i ssues, accor di ng t o whet her or not one
j udge shoul d devot e t hat j udge' s l i mi t ed r esour ces t o t he i ssue.
MS. COTCA: Ri ght . And agai n, i t ' s t he j unct ur e of t he
cases t hat ' s di f f er ent , and at t hi s poi nt t he gover nment and i f
t he - - and i f t he Cour t woul d per mi t some l i mi t ed di scover y wi t h
t he sear ch, t her e' s def i ni t el y no quest i on bei ng r ai sed whet her
i t ' s appr opr i at e at t hi s t i me f or t hat l i mi t ed di scover y t o t ake
pl ace. Ther e may be - - and I bel i eve t her e may be a quest i on on
t hi s i ssue i n t he ot her case t hat ' s bef or e J udge Wal t on, so i t
may sl ow down our case.
THE COURT: So t he answer i s no, t he cases ar en' t r el at ed
t hen wi t hi n t he meani ng of t he l ocal r ul es? I s t hat what - -
MS. COTCA: That ' s what I t hi nk. I t hi nk i t woul d sl ow
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down our case, and I don' t t hi nk i t woul d be appr opr i at e t o
consol i dat e.
THE COURT: Shoul d t wo j udges be devot i ng si gni f i cant
l i mi t ed r esour ces t o r esol ve t he same i ssue?
MS. COTCA: I know some of t he case, I don' t know - -
THE COURT: I don' t know ei t her .
MS. COTCA: - - t he det ai l s of i t .
THE COURT: Maybe I ' l l di r ect t he par t i es t o addr ess t hat
i n wr i t i ng, because one t hi ng we cer t ai nl y woul d want t o avoi d i s
a cont r adi ct or y r ul i ng on i ssues t hat may be r el evant t o bot h
cases.
MS. COTCA: Sur e.
THE COURT: Al l r i ght . Thank you. Al l r i ght . I ' l l hear
f r omgover nment counsel . Good mor ni ng.
MR. KLI MAS: Good mor ni ng, Your Honor . May i t pl ease t he
Cour t .
THE COURT: Yes. Let me ask you t hi s: Was t he gover nment
under an obl i gat i on at t he t i me t hat i t l ear ned t hat e- mai l s wer e
mi ssi ng, e- mai l s t hat wer e ar guabl y t he subj ect of or wi t hi n t he
scope of t hi s FOI A r equest , t o say somet hi ng t o ei t her t he Cour t
or t o pl ai nt i f f ?
MR. KLI MAS: The I nt er nal Revenue Ser vi ce' s posi t i on i s
no, and i t ' s ki nd of a t wo- par t answer . J udi ci al Wat ch has
accused t he gover nment of a mat er i al omi ssi on t o t he Cour t , and
we woul d make t wo ar gument s, f i r st of al l , t hat t hi s was not
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mat er i al t o t he case, t hat i t was not mat er i al i n t hat we had an
af f i r mat i ve obl i gat i on t o di scl ose i t ; and t hen, secondar i l y, i t
was not an omi ssi on on t he par t of mysel f or my pr edecessor
at t or ney on t hi s case because we di d not act ual l y know about i t ,
and I ' l l t al k a l i t t l e bi t about t hose pr ongs i f t he Cour t woul d
l i ke.
THE COURT: Wel l , at what poi nt - - does i t boi l down t o
when t he at t or ney assi gned t o a case became awar e t hat t he
e- mai l s wer e mi ssi ng or t he pr i nci pl es t hat t he at t or ney
r epr esent s? What ' s t he t r i gger i ng event t her e?
MR. KLI MAS: Sur e. St ar t i ng wi t h whet her or not t hi s i s
mat er i al at al l , t he har d dr i ve cr ash, Loi s Ler ner , occur r ed i n
2011, t wo year s bef or e J udi ci al Wat ch made i t s FOI A r equest .
Under Supr eme Cour t , D. C. Ci r cui t , and D. C. Di st r i ct Cour t
pr ecedent , t he I RS' s obl i gat i on t o pr eser ve document s and t o
pr oduce document s commences at t he t i me t hat a per f ect ed FOI A
r equest i s submi t t ed. That ' s May 2013. And t o t he ext ent t hat
t hese document s wer e l ost , damaged, not pr eser ved t wo year s
ear l i er , does not cr eat e any r emedy under t he FOI A and i t ' s
i r r el evant under FOI A.
THE COURT: What case ar e you r el yi ng on f or t hat ?
MR. KLI MAS: Yes, Your Honor . Speci f i cal l y t he Supr eme
Cour t i n Department of Justice versus Tax Analysts i ndi cat ed t hat
f or document s t o be agency r ecor ds subj ect t o t he FOI A, quot e,
The agency must be i n cont r ol of t he r equest ed mat er i al at t he
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t i me t he FOI A r equest i s made. "
Si mi l ar l y, i n t he Supr eme Cour t case Kissinger versus
Reporters Committee For Freedom of the Press, t he Supr eme Cour t
hel d t hat , " An agency' s obl i gat i on under FOI A commenced upon
r ecei pt of a FOI A r equest , end quot e. " Ther e i s no FOI A
obl i gat i on t o r et ai n r ecor ds pr i or t o t hat r equest . "
I n addi t i on, t hat i s consi st ent wi t h t he hol di ng of t he
D. C. Ci r cui t i n t he case of Wilbur versus CIA, 2004 D. C. Ci r cui t
case. I t ' s consi st ent wi t h t he D. C. Ci r cui t case Weisberg versus
Department of Justice, a D. C. Ci r cui t case f r om1983. I t ' s
consi st ent wi t h t he hol di ngs of numer ous j udges wi t hi n t hi s Cour t
at t he Di st r i ct Cour t l evel .
For exampl e, t he l at e J udge Ober dor f er i n t he case Budwar
versus Department of Air Force i ndi cat ed t hat FOI A, quot e, does
not aut hor i ze t he r econst r uct i on of document s or sanct i ons f or
f ai l ur e t o pr eser ve t hem, end quot e. He t hen sai d t hat i n t hat
case he bel i eved t he agency had been l ax i n f ai l i ng t o meet i t s
obl i gat i ons t o pr eser ve r ecor ds t hat i t was r equi r ed by l aw t o
r eser ve. However , he i ndi cat ed f ur t her t hat , t o t he ext ent t hat
was t he case, t hat woul d, quot e, be a mat t er f or t he I nspect or
Gener al , t he Compt r ol l er Gener al , and Congr essi onal over si ght
commi t t ees, end quot e, not a mat t er f or a cour t adj udi cat i ng a
FOI A case.
THE COURT: So - - al l r i ght . So t he shor t answer i s t he
cr ash occur r ed bef or e t he FOI A r equest , and t he gover nment was
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under no obl i gat i on t o, I guess, r et ai n e- mai l s t hat wer e t he - -
t hat cr ashed; i s t hat r i ght ?
MR. KLI MAS: Cor r ect . Ther e was a cr ash i n 2011 t hat
r esul t ed i n a l oss of i nf or mat i on, and because t hat i nf or mat i on
di d not exi st i n 2013 when t he r equest was made - -
THE COURT: These ar e j ust t he r epr esent at i ons of counsel .
Woul d di scover y be appr opr i at e at t hi s poi nt t o get t he swor n
t est i mony of some i ndi vi dual about t hese al l egat i ons of l ost
e- mai l s?
MR. KLI MAS: Your Honor , t her e' s - - i f we' r e t al ki ng about
pr eser vat i on and t he I RS' s obl i gat i on t o pr eser ve document s,
obvi ousl y t he I RS i s under an obl i gat i on t o pr eser ve document s
t hat ar e pot ent i al l y r esponsi ve t o J udi ci al Wat ch' s FOI A r equest .
I f you woul d l i ke, I can t al k you t hr ough t he st eps t hat t he I RS
has t aken t o make sur e t hat i t s obl i gat i ons ar e f ul f i l l ed.
THE COURT: J ust answer my quest i on f i r st . What about
di scover y?
MR. KLI MAS: Ther e - - We t hi nk t hat di scover y woul d be
pr emat ur e and speci f i cal l y i nappr opr i at e i n t hi s i nst ance,
pr emat ur e i nsof ar as t hat as an i ni t i al mat t er di scover y i s a
r ar e except i on i n FOI A cases. I t ' s r ar el y al l owed i n - -
THE COURT: Why i sn' t t hi s t he r ar e FOI A case wher e t he
gover nment doesn' t di sput e t hat t her e ar e r el evant - - Wel l , do
you di sput e t hat t her e ar e r el evant e- mai l s t hat have been l ost
i n t he cont ext of t hi s FOI A case?
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MR. KLI MAS: We don' t t hi nk t hat t hey woul d be agency
r ecor ds t hat t he I RS woul d be obl i gat ed t o or coul d pr oduce
because t hey wer e dest r oyed t wo year s - - t o t he ext ent t hey wer e
dest r oyed - -
THE COURT: But t hat ' s what you say. Ther e' s no swor n
decl ar at i on by anyone i n t hi s r ecor d. Those ar e j ust
r epr esent at i ons of counsel . So why i sn' t t hi s t he r ar e case
wher e di scover y woul d be appr opr i at e?
MR. KLI MAS: I n cases wher e cour t s have f ound t hat
di scover y i s appr opr i at e i n FOI A cases, i t s al most - - i n al most
al l t hose cases i t ' s af t er t he gover nment has moved f or summar y
j udgment and t hen t her e' s an i ssue.
THE COURT: Why shoul d I wai t , t hough? You don' t di sput e
t hat t her e ar e l ost e- mai l s, do you?
MR. KLI MAS: Cor r ect , we cer t ai nl y admi t t hat Loi s
Ler ner ' s har d dr i ve cr ashed i n - -
THE COURT: So why shoul d we go t hr ough t hi s pr ocess of
t he gover nment pr oduci ng ever yt hi ng t hat i t want s t o pr oduce or
can pr oduce and t hen aski ng t o f i l e a mot i on f or summar y j udgment
and t hen t ee up a Rul e 56( f ) a year f r omnow when t he Cour t coul d
or der appr opr i at e l i mi t ed di scover y now i n an ef f or t t o det er mi ne
what was l ost , how was i t l ost , and what ef f or t s wer e bei ng made
t o r et r i eve, et cet er a, t he r el evant quest i ons? Why do we have
t o wai t a year i nt o t hat ?
MR. KLI MAS: Wel l , Your Honor , speci f i cal l y i n t hi s case,
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t he r eason why we bel i eve i t woul d be i nappr opr i at e - - and
cer t ai nl y I spoke t o Ms. Cot ca - - Ms. Cot ca f or t he f i r st t i me on
Tuesday about t hi s i ssue, and I under st and t hat t her e wer e a
number of quest i ons t hat she want ed answer s t o t hat I was unabl e
t o pr ovi de on Tuesday, and I ' mpr obabl y not i n a bet t er posi t i on
t o pr ovi de answer s t o t hose expl anat i ons t oday, but I can gi ve a
bet t er expl anat i on as t o why I cannot pr ovi de t hose answer s. I
can cer t ai nl y ask t he I RS quest i ons about t he l oss of Loi s
Ler ner ' s har d dr i ve, what happened, det ai l s about t hat .
THE COURT: Ar e we j ust t al ki ng about one har d dr i ve or
ar e we t al ki ng about mul t i pl e empl oyees' har d dr i ves or do we
know? And because we don' t know or may not know, doesn' t t hat
al so gi ve r i se t o t he pr opr i et y of di scover y at t hi s j unct ur e?
MR. KLI MAS: Ther e' s Loi s Ler ner ' s har d dr i ve, and t he
commi ssi oner of t he I nt er nal Revenue has t est i f i ed t hat t her e ar e
si x ot her har d dr i ves.
THE COURT: And t hey al l cr ashed as wel l ?
MR. KLI MAS: That i s hi s t est i mony, cor r ect . Now, I
cer t ai nl y - -
THE COURT: At t he same t i me?
MR. KLI MAS: That ' s an answer t hat I cannot gi ve, and I
woul d l i ke t o expl ai n why I cannot gi ve an answer . I t ' s
cer t ai nl y a quest i on t hat I asked t he I nt er nal Revenue Ser vi ce.
THE COURT: I t ' s a r el evant quest i on.
MR. KLI MAS: I t ' s cer t ai nl y a quest i on I woul d l i ke t o
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have an answer t o t oday.
THE COURT: Wel l , t he pl ai nt i f f s woul d l i ke t o have an
answer t o t hat , t oo, and pr obabl y t he Cour t , as wel l , pr obabl y.
Go ahead.
MR. KLI MAS: When I spoke t o t he I RS and asked t hat
quest i on, when di d t hese har d dr i ves cr ash, whose har d dr i ves,
was i t af t er t he I RS t ook st eps t o pr eser ve t he i nf or mat i on f r om
t hose i ndi vi dual s? What I was t ol d i s t hat t he I nspect or
Gener al , who i nvest i gat es t ax mat t er s f or t he I RS, t he Tr easur y
I nspect or Gener al f or Tax Admi ni st r at i on or TI GTA has commenced
an i nvest i gat i on i nt o t hi s i ssue about t he pot ent i al l oss of
i nf or mat i on f r omhar d dr i ve mal f unct i ons.
THE COURT: When di d t he At t or ney Gener al commence t hat
i nvest i gat i on?
MR. KLI MAS: Not t he At t or ney Gener al , t he I nspect or
Gener al .
THE COURT: I ' msor r y, t he I nspect or Gener al .
MR. KLI MAS: Cor r ect . I know i t was ongoi ng at l east as
of J une of t hi s year .
THE COURT: Coul d t he I RS not t el l you when i t st ar t ed?
MR. KLI MAS: I di d not speci f i cal l y ask when t he
i nvest i gat i on st ar t ed. I know t hat t he I RS was i nf or med t hat t he
i nvest i gat i on had st ar t ed i n J une of t hi s year .
THE COURT: Al l r i ght .
MR. KLI MAS: I - -
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THE COURT: And does t he I nspect or Gener al pl an t o f i l e a
publ i c r epor t ?
MR. KLI MAS: The I nspect or Gener al i s not i n a posi t i on at
t hi s j unct ur e t o say whet her t he f i nal r epor t woul d be publ i c or
not . I t depends on how t he - -
THE COURT: I s t hat pur suant t o a congr essi onal di r ect i ve?
MR. KLI MAS: I don' t bel i eve Congr ess di r ect ed t he
I nspect or Gener al t o i ni t i at e t hi s i nvest i gat i on, but I do not
know t hat f or a f act .
THE COURT: Al l r i ght .
MR. KLI MAS: I spoke t o t he I RS and I sai d, Okay, t her e' s
t hi s i nvest i gat i on goi ng on, what does t hat mean i n t er ms of your
abi l i t y t o answer my quest i ons, and what t he I RS sai d i s t hat t he
I nspect or Gener al di r ect ed t he I RS not t o cont act pot ent i al
wi t nesses about t he subj ect mat t er of t he i nvest i gat i on and not
t o t r y t o obt ai n document s t hat wer e r el evant t o t he subj ect
mat t er of t hat i nvest i gat i on because t he I nspect or Gener al had
i ndi cat ed t hat t hat coul d i nt er f er e wi t h hi s abi l i t y t o conduct
t he i nvest i gat i on.
Not onl y di d I t al k t o t he I RS about t hat , I have r eached
out t o TI GTA and t he i nvest i gat or wor ki ng on t he case. TI GTA has
conf i r med t hat t her e' s ongoi ng i nvest i gat i on i nt o t hi s exact
i ssue. TI GTA has conf i r med i t i nst r uct ed t he I RS not t o cont act
t hose wi t nesses or pot ent i al wi t nesses or i ndi vi dual s, and i t has
f ur t her i nst r uct ed t he I RS not t o t r y t o col l ect document s t hat
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ar e r el evant t o t he TI GTA i nvest i gat i on.
THE COURT: And t hat woul d ar guabl y i ncl ude FOI A
document s, cor r ect ?
MR. KLI MAS: The document s t hat t he I RS has segr egat ed,
pr eser ved and t aken appr opr i at e st eps t o pr eser ve ar e document s
t hat have al r eady been col l ect ed, al r eady been segr egat ed, and
t her e ar e al r eady st eps t hat have been t aken t o pr eser ve t hem, so
t he I RS does not have t o go out and get t hose document s at t hi s
j unct ur e, t he I RS has al r eady col l ect ed t hose document s.
THE COURT: So, amI cor r ect i n sayi ng t hat t he document s
t hat ar e t he subj ect of t hi s pl ai nt i f f ' s FOI A r equest have al l
been col l ect ed?
MR. KLI MAS: I - - t he I RS has r epr esent ed t hat t hey i ssued
pr eser vat i on l et t er s i n May and J une of 2013 and t hen pr oceeded
over t he cour se of t he next sever al mont hs t o col l ect any
pot ent i al r esponsi ve document s, so I bel i eve t hat t he answer i s
t hat any pot ent i al l y r esponsi ve document s have been col l ect ed, t o
t he ext ent t hat a r easonabl e sear ch woul d capt ur e t hose
document s. Obvi ousl y, an agency can never say t hat i t ' s
col l ect ed ever y si ngl e pot ent i al l y r esponsi ve document f r oman
agency wi t h 90, 000 empl oyees and t he FOI A doesn' t r equi r e t hat ,
i t r equi r es a r easonabl e sear ch. The I RS has col l ect ed t he
document s t hat i t bel i eves woul d const i t ut e a r easonabl e sear ch.
THE COURT: Al l r i ght . To be mor e pr eci se, pur suant t o
t he I RS' s obl i gat i ons under FOI A pr ecedent , i s your answer yes,
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t hat t he I RS has compl et ed i t s sear ch f or r el evant e- mai l
document s i n t hi s case? I s your answer yes?
MR. KLI MAS: I t depends on what you mean by sear ch. I f
you mean col l ect i ng t he uni ver se of pot ent i al l y r esponsi ve
document s - -
THE COURT: I di dn' t l i mi t i t , I sai d pur suant t o i t s
obl i gat i on t o FOI A - - t o i t s obl i gat i ons under r el evant FOI A
pr ecedent , has t he I RS compl et ed i t s sear ch f or document s t hat
ar e t he subj ect of t hi s FOI A r equest by t hi s pl ai nt i f f ?
MR. KLI MAS: Sur e. I t hi nk t hat i t ' s a t wo- st ep answer .
So, i n t er ms of col l ect i ng t he uni ver se of pot ent i al l y r esponsi ve
document s, of conduct i ng a r easonabl e sear ch t o cr eat e t hat
uni ver se of pot ent i al l y r esponsi ve document s, I bel i eve t hat t he
I RS has compl et ed t hat sear ch.
Now, t hat i s an over br oad uni ver se of document s. Ther e
ar e document s t hat ar e not r esponsi ve, t her e ar e document s t hat
woul d be exempt f r omdi scl osur e, and t he I RS i s i n t he pr ocess of
conduci ng a r evi ew of t hat uni ver se of document s t hat have been
gat her ed and pr eser ved, and t hat has not - -
THE COURT: So I ' mj ust br eaki ng i t down. So, t he
gover nment has t hr own out a br oad net , t he I RS has t hr own out a
br oad net t o capt ur e document s t hat ar e ar guabl y pr oduceabl e, but
t her e may ot her wi se be pr i vi l eged except i ons or ot her except i ons,
nat i onal secur i t y, what ever , t hat pr ecl ude pr oduct i on t o t he
pl ai nt i f f . So t he br oad uni ver sal sear ch has been compl et ed,
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t hen.
MR. KLI MAS: That ' s cor r ect , Your Honor .
THE COURT: Al l r i ght .
MR. KLI MAS: That ' s my under st andi ng.
THE COURT: And t he gover nment i s pr oduci ng document s, t he
I RS i s pr oduci ng document s t o t hi s pl ai nt i f f ? I ' mj ust concer ned
about t hi s case r i ght now.
MR. KLI MAS: Cor r ect , t he I RS has been pr oduci ng document s
si nce Febr uar y. I t ' s pr oduced over 3800 pages of document s and
pr oduced document s as r ecent l y as, I bel i eve, J une 30t h of t hi s
year .
THE COURT: Al l r i ght . Al l r i ght . Wi t h r espect t o t he
document s t hat have been capt ur ed, t hat have been l ocat ed, when
i s t he - - when do you envi si on t hat t he f ur t her document at i on
r evi ew, cat egor i zat i on or what ever , wi l l be compl et e?
MR. KLI MAS: Cor r ect , Your Honor . That i s a quest i on t hat
I asked t he I RS as wel l . Ther e ar e f our separ at e FOI A r equest s
t hat ar e at i ssue i n t hi s l awsui t .
THE COURT: Ri ght .
MR. KLI MAS: The f i r st FOI A r equest deal s wi t h
communi cat i ons t o or f r omLoi s Ler ner br oadl y. That i s
essent i al l y what i s bei ng sought . And t he I RS has i ndi cat ed t hat
t hey bel i eve t hat t hey ar e r oughl y hal f way t hr ough t he r evi ew and
pr oduct i on of t hose document s t o J udi ci al Wat ch.
The second FOI A r equest speci f i cal l y deal s wi t h t he number
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of 501( c) ( 4) appl i cat i ons t hat wer e submi t t ed t o t he I nt er nal
Revenue Ser vi ce. My pr edecessor on t hi s case conf er r ed wi t h
Ms. Cot ca about t hat par t i cul ar r equest , and t her e was agr eement
t hat i nst ead of pr oduci ng al l document s r el at ed t o t he number of
appl i cant s, t hat i nst ead t he I RS woul d pr oduce - - woul d pr ovi de a
number t o Ms. Cot ca. We bel i eve t hat t hat wi l l be done by t he
end of t he mont h, and pot ent i al l y sooner t han t he end of t he
mont h. Ther e ar e t wo addi t i onal FOI A r equest s. One t hat br oadl y
deal s wi t h communi cat i ons bet ween t he I RS and Congr ess or
agenci es. The I RS i s i n t he pr ocess of t aki ng t hat br oad
uni ver se of document s t hat we t al ked about and doi ng what i s
r ef er r ed t o as bat chi ng, so t aki ng t hat br oad uni ver se of
document s, sear chi ng t o l i mi t i t t o a mor e pr obabl y number of
pot ent i al l y r esponsi ve document s, and t hen havi ng peopl e - - and
t hen havi ng I RS empl oyees r evi ew t hose document s f or
r esponsi veness and f or exempt i ons.
And t hen wi t h r espect t o t he f our t h FOI A r equest , t he I RS
has al r eady bat ched, al r eady br oken i nt o manageabl e segment s t he
pot ent i al l y r esponsi ve document s, and t hose document s ar e
cur r ent l y bei ng r evi ewed by I RS empl oyees f or r esponsi veness and
exempt i ons.
As f ar as a concr et e answer as t o when t hat pr ocess wi l l
be done, I asked t hat quest i on and I was t ol d t hat t he I RS i s
hopef ul t o have an answer by t he next st at us r epor t i n August ,
but t hey wer e unabl e t o pr ovi de me a t ar get end dat e t hi s week
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when I spoke t o t hem.
THE COURT: Al l r i ght . You ment i oned t hat t he I nspect or
Gener al was i nvol ved i n conduct i ng an i nvest i gat i on. By t he way,
who i s t he i nvest i gat i ng at t or ney? Do we have a name?
MR. KLI MAS: I have a name. I haven' t per sonal l y spoken
wi t h hi m. He r equest ed t hat I not ment i on hi s name i n open cour t
j ust because he woul d pr ef er t o wor k on hi s expedi t ed
i nvest i gat i on r at her t han deal wi t h phone cal l s f r omt he pr ess
f or t he next sever al days.
THE COURT: But does t he publ i c have a r i ght t o know t he
name of t hi s per son?
MR. KLI MAS: Thi s i s a r equest t hat I r ecei ved f r omhi m.
Obvi ousl y, i f t he Cour t woul d l i ke me t o pr ovi de hi s name, I ' m
not goi ng t o di sobey an or der f r omt he Cour t t o pr ovi de i t or
pr ovi de i t i n- camer a, i f necessar y, but t hat ' s t he r equest t hat I
r ecei ved f r omhi m.
THE COURT: Al l r i ght . Do we know whet her or not t hat
per son has or der ed a f or ensi c exami nat i on?
MR. KLI MAS: I can' t t el l you t he st at us of t he
i nvest i gat i on as f ar as what st eps he has t aken or what f act s he
has f ound.
THE COURT: What I mean by t hat i s t her e an exami nat i on of
t he comput er s, t he r el evant comput er s.
MR. KLI MAS: I can - - what I can r epr esent i s t hat t hat
woul d be par t of what TI GTA i s doi ng, not onl y t o i nt er vi ew
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peopl e, not onl y t o f i nd out f act ual l y what happened, but al so t o
exami ne t he par t i cul ar equi pment and t o t ake st eps t o r est or e
i nf or mat i on, t o t he ext ent t hat i t was l ost . That woul d be al so
par t of what TI GTA i s t r yi ng t o accompl i sh wi t h t hi s
i nvest i gat i on.
THE COURT: Al l r i ght . Do we know whet her or not t he
Depar t ment of J ust i ce has r equest ed t he FBI t o conduct an
i nvest i gat i on?
MR. KLI MAS: I do not know whet her t he Depar t ment of
J ust i ce has r equest ed t he FBI t o conduct an i nvest i gat i on.
THE COURT: Have you asked t hat quest i on?
MR. KLI MAS: I have not asked t hat quest i on.
THE COURT: Al l r i ght . And no one' s vol unt eer ed t hat
i nf or mat i on t o you t hat t he FBI may be i nvest i gat i ng t hi s as
wel l ?
MR. KLI MAS: Cor r ect . I don' t - - I know t her e' s been
Congr essi onal t est i mony about whet her t he FBI i s i nvest i gat i ng or
what t he FBI i s i nvest i gat i ng. I can' t say whet her t he FBI i s
i nvest i gat i ng t hi s par t i cul ar i ssue or not , I don' t know.
THE COURT: Al l r i ght . Let ' s get back t o t he quest i on of
di scover y. Why not di scover y now, t hen? Why wai t ? Because t he
scenar i o you al l ude t o i s one i n whi ch t he gover nment woul d say
at some poi nt t o t he Cour t , we' ve compl et ed our sear ch f or
r el evant document s, we' ve pr oduced document s, we' ve i nvoked
pr i vi l ege wi t h r espect t o cer t ai n document s, we woul d l i ke an
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oppor t uni t y t o f i l e a mot i on f or summar y j udgment , whi ch i s t he
nor mal cour se, r i ght ?
MR. KLI MAS: Yes.
THE COURT: Whi ch woul d pr obabl y t r i gger - - Wel l , J udge - -
f r omt he pl ai nt i f f s - - t hr ee mont hs ago or a year ago or t hr ee
year s ago, t he gover nment sai d t hat t her e wer e - - or we f ound out
t hat t her e wer e, ar guabl y, l ost document s, we don' t know whet her
t hey f al l wi t hi n a r el evant t i mef r ame. Ar guabl y, t hey coul d be
wi t hi n a r el evant t i mef r ame, but we' d l i ke some l i mi t ed di scover y
at t hat poi nt and t hey f i l e a 56( f ) af f i davi t sayi ng we can' t
r eal l y - - we' r e not i n a posi t i on t o oppose summar y j udgment
because we need some di scover y, and your ar gument a f ew mi nut es
ago was t hat i t woul d be mor e appr opr i at e at t hat j unct ur e t o
consi der di scover y, r i ght ?
MR. KLI MAS: Cor r ect , Your Honor .
THE COURT: I s t hat st i l l your answer ?
MR. KLI MAS: That i s st i l l our answer , i n addi t i on t o t he
concer ns t hat we have about t he TI GTA i nvest i gat i on whi ch i s
ongoi ng. At a mi ni mum, we t hi nk t hat t he - - t he Depar t ment
t hi nks t hat i t woul d be mor e appr opr i at e f or t hat i nvest i gat i on
t o - -
THE COURT: Mor e appr opr i at e f or whom, t hough, f or t he
Depar t ment or f or t he publ i c? I mean, t hi s i s an act i on f i l ed by
an or gani zat i on t hat seeks document s under t he t heor y t hat t he
publ i c l i kes t o know what i t s gover nment i s doi ng, so mor e
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appr opr i at e f or whom? How woul d del ayi ng di scover y assi st t hi s
pl ai nt i f f and assi st t he publ i c i n l ear ni ng what happened her e?
MR. KLI MAS: I woul d submi t t hat l et t i ng t he I nspect or
Gener al concl ude hi s i nvest i gat i on ser ves t he publ i c i nt er est .
The I nspect or Gener al i s - -
THE COURT: Fi r st of al l , we don' t know who t hi s I nspect or
Gener al i s; secondl y, we don' t know whet her hi s or her r epor t i s
goi ng t o be publ i c, r i ght , r i ght ?
MR. KLI MAS: That ' s cor r ect .
THE COURT: So what ' s - - so l et ' s j ust st op t her e. Whose
i nt er est does t hat benef i t , ot her t han t he I RS and not t he
publ i c?
MR. KLI MAS: I woul d not e t hat t he I nspect or Gener al i s
i ndependent of t he I RS, t hat t he I nspect or Gener al i s t he same
I nspect or Gener al who i ssued t he r epor t r egar di ng 501( c) ( 4)
i ssues t hat l aunched t he Congr essi onal i nvest i gat i ons t hat ar e
ongoi ng. The I nspect or Gener al i s t he same one who commenced
t hi s par t i cul ar i nvest i gat i on. I t hi nk i t ' s cl ear t hat t hi s
I nspect or Gener al has t he i nt er est , t he aut hor i t y, and t he
r esour ces t o conduct a mor e t hor ough r evi ew t han what we coul d do
wi t h di scover y, even ext ensi ve di scover y, but cer t ai nl y bet t er
t han what we coul d do wi t h l i mi t ed di scover y i n t hi s act i on. I
can' t i magi ne t hat l i mi t ed di scover y woul d - - t hi s i s t he f i r st
t i me I ' ve hear d t hat t hi s i s somet hi ng t hat t he pl ai nt i f f sought .
I t ' s not somet hi ng t hat we di scussed ear l i er t hi s week when we
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spoke, but I cer t ai nl y don' t t hi nk t hat t he l i mi t ed di scover y
t hat Ms. Cot ca was pr oposi ng i nvol ved f or ensi c exami nat i on of
comput er har d dr i ves. I don' t t hi nk i t woul d be as ext ensi ve or
as successf ul i n t er ms of get t i ng t o t he bot t omof t hi s i ssue.
THE COURT: What about a quest i on t hat t he Cour t r ai sed
wi t h pl ai nt i f f ' s counsel a f ew mi nut es ago about whet her or not
t hi s case shoul d be consol i dat ed or t r ansf er r ed t o my col l eague
J udge Wal t on under our r el at ed case r ul es?
And agai n, I don' t know enough about hi s case t o know
whet her or not t hey' r e, i ndeed, r el at ed under t he meani ng of our
l ocal r ul es, but I j ust r ai se t he quest i on f or your r esponse.
MR. KLI MAS: Sur e. I have some f ami l i ar i t y wi t h t he Tr ue
t he Vot e case. Ther e ar e Depar t ment of J ust i ce Tax Di vi si on
at t or neys who ar e assi gned t o t hat case, and I ' mnot one of t hose
at t or neys, but i t ' s my under st andi ng t hat t he Tr ue t he Vot e case
i s not a FOI A act i on, i t ' s a case i n whi ch t her e woul d - - i f t he
mot i on t o di smi ss f i l ed by t he gover nment i s deni ed, t hen t her e
woul d pot ent i al l y be a di scover y schedul e and di scover y whi ch
woul d be uni que and di f f er ent f r om- -
THE COURT: Ther e' s a pendi ng mot i on t o di smi ss i n t hat
case; i s t hat cor r ect ?
MR. KLI MAS: I bel i eve t hat ' s cor r ect , Your Honor .
THE COURT: But you' r e not i nvol ved i n t hat ?
MR. KLI MAS: Cor r ect .
THE COURT: And t hat ' s not a FOI A case, t hat ' s an act i on
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f or damages, i s i t , or a decl ar at or y i nj unct i ve r el i ef and
damages al so, i f I r ecal l ? I br i ef l y r ead t he pl eadi ngs. I t ' s
an act i on f or a decl ar at or y and i nj unct i ve r el i ef and I bel i eve a
col l at er al r equest f or damages, I t hi nk, but not FOI A.
MR. KLI MAS: I bel i eve t hat ' s cor r ect , t her e i s not a FOI A
cl ai mi n t hat l awsui t . So cer t ai nl y t her e woul d be some
syner gi es i n havi ng one j udge who i s f ami l i ar wi t h t hese i ssues.
I cer t ai nl y don' t t hi nk i t ' s a r el at ed case i n t he way t hat t hat
t er mi s used i n t hi s Cour t ' s r ul es, but I see t her e woul d be some
ef f i ci enci es i n havi ng one - -
THE COURT: But you woul d not be pr ecl uded f r oma t r ansf er
by consent t o one of t he t wo j udges. Ar e t her e any ot her act i ons
i n t hi s Cour t ?
MR. KLI MAS: Any ot her act i ons?
THE COURT: Si mi l ar or ar guabl y r el at ed l awsui t s i n t hi s
Cour t pendi ng bef or e ot her col l eagues?
MR. KLI MAS: I n t er ms of FOI A cases - -
THE COURT: No, no, I know t hat . We' r e i nundat ed wi t h
FOI A cases. I n t er ms of t hi s e- mai l i ssue, anyone el se wi l l
f i l ed anyt hi ng?
MR. KLI MAS: I don' t speci f i cal l y know i f t he e- mai l i ssue
i s ger mane t o any of t he ot her pendi ng l awsui t s i n t hi s Cour t . I
know t hat t her e ar e ot her pendi ng l awsui t s i n t hi s cour t t hat
r el at e t o 501( c) ( 4) l awsui t s. Many of t hose ar e FOI A l awsui t s,
but I don' t know i f t he i ssues ar e ger mane t o t hose cases or not .
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THE COURT: Al l r i ght . Thank you.
MR. KLI MAS: Thank you, Your Honor .
THE COURT: Anyt hi ng f ur t her ?
MS. COTCA: Thank you, Your Honor .
THE COURT: Why shoul dn' t you wai t ? Why shoul dn' t t hi s
wai t unt i l t he gover nment says, We' ve f i ni shed our pr ocess, we' ve
pr oduced ever yt hi ng, and we want t o f i l e a mot i on f or summar y
j udgment at t hat poi nt and t hen gi ve you an oppor t uni t y t o f i l e
your 56( f ) , i f t hat ' s appr opr i at e, and you can per suade t he Cour t
i f t her e' s a need f or di scover y? That ' s t he nor mal cour se, i sn' t
i t ?
MS. COTCA: Ri ght , and t hat ' s t he nor mal cour se because
t hat ' s when t hi s sor t of i nf or mat i on becomes avai l abl e. Thi s
case i s di f f er ent f r omt hat because t hi s i nf or mat i on became
avai l abl e t hr ough publ i c r esour ces and t he news wi t h r espect t o
what t he pl ai nt i f f bel i eves i s an i ssue wi t h - -
THE COURT: The medi a i s get t i ng some hi gh mar ks f r omyou
t oday, huh?
MS. COTCA: Wel l , t hat ' s wher e we got t hi s i nf or mat i on,
Your Honor .
THE COURT: The Congr essi onal i nvest i gat i on i s a publ i c
pr oceedi ng; i s t hat cor r ect ?
MS. COTCA: Cor r ect . So t hat ' s why we t hi nk t hi s i s
di st i ngui shabl e f r omt he ot her cases. And t hat ' s r i ght , when - -
i n t he nor mal cour se of a FOI A l i t i gat i on, you have t he summar y
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j udgment mot i ons and you have t he decl ar at i ons, and t hat ' s when
an obj ect i on i s r ai sed or a chal l enge i s r ai sed t o t he sear ch
because t hat ' s when t he evi dence or t he r ecor d becomes cl ear . We
al r eady have t hi s i nf or mat i on. I t doesn' t make sense t o wai t .
Fi r st of al l , who knows what ' s goi ng t o st i l l be avai l abl e
t wo year s down t he l i ne. We don' t have a t i mel i ne yet of when
t hi s wi l l be over . I t coul d be t hr ee year s f r omnow, i t coul d be
t hr ee mont hs, we don' t know. We don' t have much conf i dence t hat
i t wi l l be t hr ee mont hs f r omnow, but - - and so t hat ' s why we
t hi nk i t woul d be appr opr i at e at t hi s t i me t o have t he l i mi t ed
di scover y. Wi t h r espect t o - -
THE COURT: Suppose - - woul d you be sat i sf i ed i f someone
f i l ed a decl ar at i on i n t he FOI A case under oat h i n an ef f or t t o
per suade t he Cour t and t he pl ai nt i f f t hat t hese document s t hat
you' r e seeki ng i n t he cour se of t hi s l i t i gat i on ar en' t even
wi t hi n t he scope of t he document s t hat ar e mi ssi ng?
MS. COTCA: Wel l - -
THE COURT: Woul d t hat be enough?
MS. COTCA: No, Your Honor , because - - and t hi s i s t he
poi nt . The Loi s Ler ner e- mai l s - - Fi r st of al l , Your Honor
cor r ect l y poi nt ed out t hat we don' t act ual l y have any decl ar at i on
or any st at ement act ual l y made by t he I RS, t he def endant i n t hi s
case, whet her , i ndeed, t hese e- mai l s ar e mi ssi ng or not .
THE COURT: You l ear ned t hr ough t he publ i cl y avai l abl e
medi a t hat t her e ar e e- mai l s t hat ar e mi ssi ng. You don' t know
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what t i mef r ame t hey cover or not , do you?
MS. COTCA: We don' t know what t i mef r ame.
THE COURT: You don' t know what t i mef r ame t he mi ssi ng
e- mai l s ar e - -
MS. COTCA: The t i mef r ame f or t he e- mai l s?
THE COURT: Yea, f or t he e- mai l s t hat ar e ar guabl y
mi ssi ng, r i ght ?
MS. COTCA: What ' s been di scl osed i s e- mai l s f r om2010 t o
2012. That ' s what I bel i eve t he i nf or mat i on i s wi t h r espect t o
t he mi ssi ng e- mai l s, whi ch cover s t he speci f i c per i od of t i me
t hat we r equest ed f or t he e- mai l s.
THE COURT: Ri ght , but t hat ' s what you bel i eve.
MS. COTCA: That ' s what t he t est i mony t hat t he I RS
Commi ssi oner or t hat ' s t he i nf or mat i on t he I RS pr ovi ded t o
Congr ess and t hat ' s wher e we got t he i nf or mat i on f r om. But goi ng
back t o t he i ssue her e, t hi s i nf or mat i on i s becomi ng avai l abl e
now. We don' t have a set t i mel i ne of when t he I RS wi l l compl et e
i t s pr oduct i on so we can move on t o t he br i ef i ng phase of t he
l i t i gat i on, and we don' t know what wi l l be avai l abl e and what
wi l l not be avai l abl e at t hat poi nt . So i t doesn' t make sense
f or us t o wai t .
And wi t h r espect t o - - and at t hi s poi nt , we do know
t her e' s t hi s i ssue wi t h r espect t o t hese e- mai l s, and we st i l l
don' t know what t he I RS has done, what t he def endant has done t o
t r y t o see wer e t her e ot her pot ent i al sour ces wher e t hese e- mai l s
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can be r et r i eved because t hey do have t he bur den t o conduct a
sear ch t hat ' s r easonabl y cal cul at ed t o r each - - t o uncover t he
r equest ed r ecor ds.
One par t i cul ar e- mai l t hat t he I RS has pr oduced i n t hi s
case at t hi s poi nt i s f r omMs. Ler ner her sel f f r om2012 wher e she
i dent i f i es and asks act ual l y t he TI GTA of f i cer - - t he TI GTA
i nvest i gat or t o copy someone i n her of f i ce because she moni t or s
her e- mai l s. One obvi ous quest i on i s, Wel l , has t he I RS gone
back t o see i f t hi s i ndi vi dual ' s comput er s and t hi s i ndi vi dual ' s
r ecor ds have been sear ched so we can r et r i eve t he r ecor ds t hat we
r equest ed i n t hi s case by t hat mechani smand t hr ough t hose means,
and t hat ' s r easonabl e. That ' s pl ai nt i f f ' s posi t i on i n t hi s case.
THE COURT: What about t he gover nment ' s st at ement t hat
di scover y woul d be, ar guabl y, dupl i ci t ous now of what t hi s I GA
at t or ney i s doi ng?
MS. COTCA: Wel l , we don' t know what t he I G at t or ney i s
doi ng, we don' t know who t he I G at t or ney i s, and t hi s i s t he
f i r st t i me we' ve hear d of t hi s, and J udi ci al - - we woul d have, we
woul d suggest , a ver y l i mi t ed and onl y speci f i c - - not wi t h
r espect so much wi t h r espect t o t he obl i gat i ons and what not
t hat ' s goi ng on i n Congr ess of mai nt ai ni ng and keepi ng t hese
r ecor ds, but wi t h r espect t o what ar e t he r easonabl e mechani sms
t hat t he I RS has t o t r y t o get t hese e- mai l s t hat we' r e
r equest i ng i n t hi s l i t i gat i on. That ' s much mor e nar r ow t han t he
i nvest i gat i on i n t he way t hat I under st and what t hi s
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i nvest i gat i on woul d cover .
THE COURT: Al l r i ght . I ' mgoi ng t o t ake about a
t en- mi nut e r ecess.
UNI DENTI FI ED SPEAKER: Your Honor , may I be hear d on one
quest i on t hat Your Honor posed i n anot her case?
THE COURT: I ' msor r y?
UNI DENTI FI ED SPEAKER: I ' mnot counsel i n t hi s mat t er .
THE COURT: No, no. Thank you ver y much, t hough. At some
poi nt - - you' r e cer t ai nl y wel come t o speak wi t h counsel dur i ng
t he r ecess, but t hank you ver y much. I ' mgoi ng t o t ake a
t en- mi nut e r ecess. Al l r i ght . Thank you.
( Ther eupon, a r ecess i n t he pr oceedi ngs occur r ed f r om
11: 52 a. m. unt i l 12: 06 p. m. )
THE COURT: Al l r i ght . Anyt hi ng f ur t her f r omcounsel ,
ei t her si de?
MR. KLI MAS: Your Honor , may I be hear d br i ef l y?
THE COURT: Yeah, sur e.
MR. KLI MAS: I j ust want ed t o br i ef l y addr ess - - Ms. Cot ca
i ndi cat ed t hat she di dn' t know what ef f or t s t he I RS has t aken t o
ei t her r ecover Ms. Ler ner ' s har d dr i ve or t o obt ai n t he
i nf or mat i on, t he l ost e- mai l s f r omot her sour ces wi t hi n t he I RS.
I woul d i ndi cat e t hat , i n f act , J udi ci al Wat ch at t ached t o t hei r
mot i on a st at ement - - a st at ement f r omt he I RS t hat det ai l s t he
f act t hat t he I RS had, i n f act , t aken t hose st eps; t hat af t er
Ms. Ler ner ' s har d dr i ve cr ashed, t he I T depar t ment at t empt ed t o
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r est or e t he i nf or mat i on and was unsuccessf ul . I t was t hen sent
t o t he I RS cr i mi nal di vi si on, whi ch at t empt ed t o r est or e t he
i nf or mat i on. I t was unsuccessf ul . Fur t her mor e, t he I RS has
obt ai ned over 20, 000 e- mai l s of whi ch Ms. Ler ner was not t he
cust odi an by goi ng t o ot her I RS empl oyees and obt ai ni ng t he
e- mai l s f r omt hose sour ces. That i s at t ached as an exhi bi t t o
t hei r mot i ons.
THE COURT: Have t hose e- mai l s been pr oduced t o pl ai nt i f f ?
MR. KLI MAS: I don' t know - - t he answer t o t hat quest i on
i s no, and t he r eason why i s because t he I RS i s pr oduci ng Loi s
Ler ner ' s e- mai l s and r evi ewi ng t hemi n r ever se chr onol ogi cal
or der . So t he I RS st ar t ed wi t h e- mai l s f r om2013, t he most
r ecent , and i s wor ki ng backwar ds. The I RS had not even got t en t o
2011, t he poi nt at whi ch t her e woul d have been any r ecogni t i on on
t he par t of t he I RS FOI A pr ocessi ng t eamt hat t her e was an i ssue.
That ' s a l ar ge par t of t he r eason why I was not made awar e of
t hi s i ssue, because t he I RS empl oyees pr ocessi ng t he FOI A
r equest s had not even got t en t o a poi nt wher e t hey coul d have
r eal i zed pot ent i al l y t hat t her e was an i ssue.
THE COURT: Al l r i ght . Thank you. I n r esponse?
MS. COTCA: J ust ver y br i ef l y, Your Honor , wi t h r espect t o
t he ef f or t s t hat opposi ng counsel i s j ust r ef er r i ng t o. Those
ar e t he ef f or t s t hat t he I RS had gone t hr ough t o t r y t o r et r i eve
t he har d dr i ve and/ or maybe, per haps, backup t apes. That was
back i n 2011. I ' mt al ki ng about what ef f or t s have been done now
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i n t hi s l i t i gat i on t o i dent i f y ot her sour ces t hat pot ent i al l y
coul d have t hese l ost e- mai l s, so t hat - - t her e' s a di f f er ence,
and I ' mhi ghl i ght i ng - -
THE COURT: I sn' t t hi s nor mal l y t he subj ect of a meet and
conf er , t hough, i n cases among counsel , f or counsel t o meet and
t al k about t hi s? Al l r i ght , t her e' s a pr obl emwi t h Loi s Ler ner ' s
e- mai l s, so how can we get t hi s i nf or mat i on, what ot her sour ces,
what about her cc l i st or bcc l i st or what ever ? Have you had any
di scussi ons l i ke t hat i n an ef f or t t o f i nd out how you can get
t hi s i nf or mat i on f r omot her sour ces?
MS. COTCA: We have, Your Honor . That was act ual l y t hi s
week on Tuesday, and t hose quest i ons haven' t - -
THE COURT: J ust Tuesday, t hough?
MS. COTCA: On Tuesday speci f i cal l y we - -
THE COURT: That ' s j ust a t el ephone conver sat i on, r i ght ?
MS. COTCA: That was a t el ephone conver sat i on, yes.
THE COURT: Al l r i ght .
MS. COTCA: J ust - - and goi ng back ver y br i ef l y t o r el at ed
cases, J udi ci al Wat ch act ual l y has anot her pendi ng FOI A
l i t i gat i on t hat r el at es t o r ecor ds wi t h r espect t o per sonal
audi t s, audi t s of per sonal - - of i ndi vi dual s t hat wer e r ef er r ed
because of i nf or mat i on t hat was i n Tea Par t y' s appl i cat i ons.
That ' s act ual l y case number , I bel i eve, 13- 1759.
At t hi s poi nt - - I t ' s al so bef or e t hi s Cour t . So
t hat ' s - - t hat may - - t hi s i ssue may be r el at ed or may come up i n
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t hat case, but I j ust want ed - - I mi ssed i t and I j ust want ed t o
make t he Cour t awar e.
THE COURT: Al l r i ght . Thank you. Thank you, bot h. I
t hank t he f our of you. Let me j ust say t hi s: Fi r st of al l , t he
Cour t woul d be l oat hed t o gr ant an or al mot i on f or di scover y. I t
may wel l be, as pl ai nt i f f counsel i ndi cat ed, t hi s i s one of t he
r ar e cases t hat , because of devel opment s, counsel ' s i n f avor of
some l i mi t ed di scover y. I t ' s pr emat ur e at t hi s poi nt t o know
t hat .
I t hi nk t hat how t hi s case shoul d pr oceed i s as f ol l ows:
The gover nment i s goi ng t o be r equi r ed t o f i l e a decl ar at i on
si gned by t he appr opr i at e I RS of f i ci al , under oat h, under
penal t i es, addr essi ng t he Loi s Ler ner e- mai l / comput er i ssues, and
I ' l l j ust l eave i t as br oad as t hat r i ght now because, you know,
I have no i dea what t he r el evant t i mef r ame i s i nsof ar as t hi s
FOI A r equest .
Counsel has i ndi cat ed t hat t her e may be e- mai l s t hat
pr edat e t he cr ash t hat ar e somehow i mpact ed by - - I don' t know
t hat t o be a f act or not , so t hat ' s why I ' msayi ng, and I ' l l put
t hi s i n wr i t i ng i n a mi nut e or der , a decl ar at i on si gned by t he
appr opr i at e of f i ci al under oat h addr essi ng t he Loi s Ler ner
i ssues. That ' s about as br oad as I can make i t at t hi s poi nt .
The f act t hat t her e' s an I T i nvest i gat i on ongoi ng i s
i mpor t ant , i t ' s si gni f i cant . I don' t t hi nk i t ' s r el evant at al l
who' s conduct i ng t he i nvest i gat i on. I t hi nk i t ' s pr obabl y i n
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ever yone' s best i nt er est t hat t he i nvest i gat i on commence, i t has
commenced, accor di ng t o gover nment counsel , and can concl ude as
soon as possi bl e, and hopef ul l y at some poi nt t her e' s a publ i c
r epor t vol unt ar i l y pr oduced by t he I nspect or Gener al , and I ' l l
j ust l eave i t at t hat , t hat woul d addr ess t he r el evant i ssues i n
t hi s l i t i gat i on. I want t o be ver y car ef ul . I ' mj ust f ocusi ng
on t hi s FOI A case and t he pr oduct i on of document s t hat t hi s
pl ai nt i f f has r equest ed i n t hi s l i t i gat i on and not hi ng el se. I
t hi nk t hat once t he decl ar at i on - - t he decl ar at i on shoul d al so
i ncl ude i nf or mat i on t hat may assi st t he par t i es i n r ecover i ng t he
subj ect mat t er of t he l ost e- mai l s f r omot her sour ces. I t hi nk
t hat ' s hi ghl y r el evant . So t her e wi l l be t wo mai n par t s, A and
B. A wi l l be t he Loi s Ler ner par t , and B wi l l be, how do we get
t hi s i nf or mat i on t hat ' s been l ost f r omot her sour ces, and t hat ' s
goi ng t o be hi ghl y r el evant as wel l , and t hat ' s al so goi ng t o
i nf or mt he Cour t whet her t her e' s a need f or l i mi t ed di scover y.
Now, I don' t t hi nk t hi s decl ar at i on shoul d be f i l ed at t he
concl usi on of di scover y. The decl ar at i on shal l be f i l ed, and I ' m
not goi ng t o ext end t he t i me. I ' l l be a l i t t l e gener ous i n
set t i ng f or t h an appr opr i at e t i mef r ame r ecogni zi ng t hi s i s
mi d- J ul y, peopl e have pl ans t o go on vacat i on, I don' t want
anyone' s spouses, si gni f i cant ot her s, or ki ds mad at me because
he or she has t o cancel vacat i on. Ther e ar e l i mi t s t o my
j udi ci al aut hor i t y, and I don' t want any phone cal l s f r omf ami l y
member s, so i t ' s goi ng t o be 30 days f r omt oday' s dat e. Today i s
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t he 10t h, so August 10t h, and I ' mnot goi ng t o ext end i t . I want
t hat decl ar at i on f i l ed and si gned by t he appr opr i at e of f i ci al
under oat h, al l r i ght , and I ' ve sai d t hat at l east t hr ee or f our
t i mes. Then t hat ' s goi ng t o i nf or mt he Cour t and pl ai nt i f f as
wel l as t o whet her or not t her e i s a need f or any di scover y,
l i mi t ed di scover y.
So at t hat t i me, i f pl ai nt i f f wi shes t o pur sue di scover y,
t hen pl ai nt i f f can f i l e a r equest f or di scover y addr essi ng any
i nadequaci es i n t he decl ar at i on and i t ' s ent i t l ement , i f i t has
an ent i t l ement , as a mat t er of l aw, t o di scover y at t hi s ver y
i nt er est i ng j unct ur e wher e di scover y i s st i l l ongoi ng, i t ' s not
been concl uded, we' r e not at t he 56( f ) st age, but by t he same
t oken I t hi nk i t ' s appr opr i at e t o gi ve pl ai nt i f f a chance t o
addr ess whet her or not t her e' s a need f or di scover y.
Now, havi ng sai d t hat , I ' mgoi ng t o di r ect t hat t he
par t i es meet and conf er wi t h r espect t o t he B par t of t hat
decl ar at i on, how does t he gover nment obt ai n t hi s i nf or mat i on f r om
ot her sour ces, and I ' mgoi ng t o ask my col l eague J udge Facci ol a
t o pr esi de over di scussi ons, meet and conf er di scussi ons about
how t hat obj ect i ve i s obt ai ned; t hat i s, how ar e t he l ost
document s ot her wi se r et r i evabl e, i f at al l , f r omot her sour ces,
so you' r e not goi ng t o be abl e t o f i l e a mot i on f or di scover y
i mmedi at el y on August t he 11t h. I don' t know J udge Facci ol a' s
cal endar . I n f act , I di dn' t even t hi nk about assi gni ng or aski ng
hi mt o hel p me do anyt hi ng unt i l a f ew mi nut es ago, but I t hi nk
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t hat t he par t i es' best i nt er est s, best r espect i ve i nt er est s woul d
be ser ved by havi ng a di si nt er est ed t hi r d par t y j udi ci al of f i cer
assi st you, and because he' s an exper t i n t hi s ar ea of
E- di scover y, et cet er a, assi st t he par t i es i n obt ai ni ng - - i n
accompl i shi ng t hat obj ect i ve, how do you get t hat i nf or mat i on
f r omot her sour ces. I don' t know how much t i me t hat ' s goi ng t o
t ake. Agai n, I don' t know hi s schedul e. Hopef ul l y, he' l l be on
some ni ce beach August 11t h and f or t he r est of t he summer .
So what I ' l l do i s I ' l l say unt i l Sept ember 10t h or so
I ' l l r ef er t he mat t er t o J udge Facci ol a - - t hat wi l l be a mont h
af t er t he gover nment ' s f i l i ng of i t s decl ar at i on - - and t he
par t i es can meet and conf er wi t h hi mi n an ef f or t t o det er mi ne
how t hi s i nf or mat i on can ot her wi se be r ecover abl e or
di scover abl e, and I t hi nk t hat ' s al l t hat t he Cour t needs t o do
at t hi s poi nt , and I ' l l i ssue an appr opr i at e or der t hat addr esses
t hat , and I ' l l pr obabl y i ssue t hat t oday or t omor r ow.
The t hi r d par t shal l be t he I T i nvest i gat i on. I f t he
gover nment cont ends t hat di scover y woul d somehow or anot her
compr omi se or i mpact adver sel y t he I G i nvest i gat i on, t hen t he
gover nment needs t o pr ovi de t hat i nf or mat i on agai n under oat h i n
a decl ar at i on. So t her e ar e t hr ee sect i ons t her e. I f I t hi nk of
a f our t h sect i on, I ' l l put i t i n t he mi nut e or der , but t hose ar e
t he t hr ee sect i ons t hat I want t he gover nment t o addr ess, and
t hat ' s - - I ' mnot goi ng t o schedul e anot her st at us hear i ng now.
Agai n, I don' t know t he avai l abi l i t y of J udge Facci ol a. I t may
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wel l be t hat you f ol ks ar e goi ng on vacat i on, t oo, I don' t know,
but t her e may have t o be some modest adj ust ment s, but I ' mgoi ng
t o hol d t i ght t o t hat August 10t h deadl i ne, t hough, f or t he
f i l i ng of t hat decl ar at i on. I t hi nk t hat 30 days f r omt oday i s
most appr opr i at e, and t hat ' s what t he Cour t wi l l do. Al l r i ght .
Any ot her mat t er s t hat we have t o addr ess t oday?
So I ' mnot pr ecl udi ng you at al l f r omf i l i ng your mot i on,
i t ' s j ust t hat t he t i mi ng i s not r i ght now, and you mi ght get a
l ot of addi t i onal i nf or mat i on as a r esul t of t he gover nment ' s
abi l i t y t o pr oceed wi t h al t er nat i ve sour ces f or r ecover y of t hi s
i nf or mat i on. I don' t know what ' s bei ng pr oduced i n ot her cases,
and counsel , you don' t know ei t her , do you? You' r e not i nvol ved
i n al l t he ot her cases?
MR. KLI MAS: I ' mnot i nvol ved i n al l t he ot her FOI A cases,
but I ' mi nvol ved i n sever al of t he FOI A cases.
THE COURT: Al l r i ght . That ' s al l I have t o say.
( Pr oceedi ngs adj our ned at 12: 19 p. m. )
C E R T I F I C A T E
I , Scot t L. Wal l ace, RDR- CRR, cer t i f y t hat
t he f or egoi ng i s a cor r ect t r anscr i pt f r omt he r ecor d of
pr oceedi ngs i n t he above- ent i t l ed mat t er .
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Scott L. Wallace, RDR, CRR Date
Official Court Reporter

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