from a certain perspective, lcould also name some UVs,

who would then appear like pianeers af that style in the

nineties. Or even some Scandinavian writers from even
before, like CDC, CP, etc- I even did pieces like that,
from 2OA3 and on, but using other names. Surely it's
lighter, it allaws you to take a break, to put graffti back
inlo its popular expressian place: To worry a bit less
about skills and appreciate the moment or the action a
bit more. But on the opposite of what you could think, it
still noeds a lot of preliminary wark, research, ideas and
creativity. Especially if you don't want to fall into
stereotypes. Because you can see so much garbage!
Particularly when it comes from people out of nowhere,
wha barely know Subway Art or Writing From The
Undergound. They are doing it just because it's hyped
and they directly repraduce each other's style. Of
course, the recipe is simple, but it can quickly look
forced. Stupid letters and characters, arrows all over the
place, deliberately bad effects, little dots in the
background, gang, crime or ghetto-related slogans, and
there you go, you're done. All this made in a lame
wasteground with a wannabe hardcore pose for the
camera, dressed like a gangsta or a Warrior. And then
back in your comfortable apaftment, with your fucking
awesome Mac that you baught cash, you put that shit
on Fotolog. And there you ga! No commenL
Giving that repression is getting increasingly heavy in
Europe, it induces more and more changos in practice,
like commando-style preparations. What's your opinion?
Difficulty soris things out. But intelligence and craftiness
will always avercome repression. At least I hope they
will-even if sometimes it hurts. I think no matter what the
new security systems are like, there will always be a flaw,
because it remains human-sized. And if it's more
dangerous, you use appropriate tools. When I see action
movies like the Jason Eourne trilogy, modern robberies
movies like The Score or any ather movie with intrusions,
snipers etc, I realize we really are amateurs. With out
little yards guarded with sensors and video cameras,
connected to a cabin occupied by poor underpaid guys
watching
Wrn
ail night, and hoping to beat on some
youngsters duing their round. But hey, you gotta know
what you want,. too. lf you use mrsre stuff like walkie-
talkies, night vision camcorders, frequency scramblers,
distribution blocks-what's the point af keeping on
making tittte drawings on trains, non-profit actions? lt's
clearly a dtfferent trip, and it's not the same risks! But
sometimes the line to cross is very thin. That's why I
think some people just take themselves a little too
seriously. There's a serious lack of lightness, of
spontaLneity, of indif'ference, of doubt. You have to
remember you're not at war. That sad, kinda demora-
lizing, depressing, paetic, almost use/ess-aspect ls
so{nething I pafticularly like in graffiti. lt may sound
dumb, but it's roughly a romantic aspect, in the aiistic,
nostalgic meaning of it. lfound it in the past. Nowadays,
I think we could use some more.
What do you think about the evolution of Graffiti in
France and Europe during your active years?
"lt was better in my time!" Haha-na, don't get into the
pattern of the bitter old guy bitching about young
people, because it is abvious that a lat of them are
fucking great. I don't need to make a list, it would be
disciminating and prejudiced. The future will tell.
Actually, lots of people abeady talked about this, but tha
big change is the lnternet and new ways of circulation.
Blogs and websites changed everything. Everyone
knows each other; the game is not the ffime. Everything
can be found, you can buy a cornplete writer's outfit for
Chistmas, with stuff that didn't even oxist before. The
very concept of proximity and limits has changed. You
can't talk about being All City like in New York back in
the days: They didn't care about other cities, other
countries; il remained human-sized, urban-sized. Today,
people travel and want to reach the whole of Europe, the
031
whole world. Train bombing suiaced, because trains
were the moving mediums that made the pieces travel,
rathe{ than the writers, who
.stayed
in thek hood.
Nowadays, ail tlrat stuff is long gone. lt got corrupted
samehow. I wasn't there to witness that era unfortu-
nately, but I still saw some kind of evalution. New
standards and new media appeared. Websites, chat
rooms, blogs, forums, and magazines. lt's true that it
makes things easier, faster. You can pretend anything
with those new media, but the significance of word of
mouth isn't to be neglected. When it cames to local
actions, sooner or later people knaw everything about it-
at least I stiil hope so. lt's a new game, it's a modern
competition, it's the time of publicity, marketing. But the
intention, the rule is always to stick out of the crowd, to
make people talk about you. That's haw it is. I think the
shame lies mora in the credulity of $ome people, the loss
of critical thinking. They fantasize about so much stuff
with
just
a picture or a blog, they're always on the watch
for new heroes. But what puts me off even more abaut
that evolution is the hijacking of graffiti by ertemal
interests, the hype of graffiti. There are thoso who make
money from it, but who actually don't give a shit. They
don't even know who we are. lt is complete hypocrisy.
They tighten p*nishments and security operations, they
piss off the magazines using incitation as an excuse, but
they never mess witll the advertising guys or big
commercial companies using graffiti. And !'m not even
mentioning video games or trendy clothing lines "graffi-
tizing" their logas ta fiake them look cooler.
New York, is it a way to complete the chcle?
The December 2006 Daily News article about "Eurotrash
making marks on the subway' was deploring,
Europeans come leave thek mark where the grafftti
culture was born. But it's not only about that, it's more
complex. lt's true that painting in that city is a real
pleasure, in spots where it all sbrted. Thinking that
writers were akeady painting where you're painting right
now at the time af your birth, with afi the innocence of
the beginning. The word 'pilgimage" may be a bit
strong, but it kinda gives you an idea of what the
concept is. But no need to exaggerate, it's not an
ultimate goal. lfeel completely European either way and
! enjoy just as much visiting eastern Europe or former
communist countries, if not more. I think that first and
fo{emost, New York is just a magical cW, capital of the
world for some, modern Babylon for others-because of
its cultural diversity, its melting pot aspect, and most
particularly for its transpofiation system and models. A
must-have for anyone digging subways, trains, yards,
lay-ups and tunnels atmospheres.
ls it possible to keep on doing graffiti when you're over
thirty, or do you have to roasonably give up any activiu
and announce gratfiti is dead?
Heh, that's a trick question. Basically, you're supposed
to act like everything is normal to avoid becoming a
stereotyped sermonizer. No, actually it really is a hard
thing to deal with. Of course, from a historical point of
view, it's a pretty recent thing, especially compared to
the seventies pioneers. But on a life-sized scale, lots of
things change, some interests disappear, some
motivations evolve. There are often great differences
between what you have to do, what you're able to do,
and what you want to da. Lots of disenchantments,
especially when you start thinking back about the
unconquerable frenzy of your twenties, yaur dreams,
your marks-you believe graffiti is going to bring yau the
gratitude society doesn't bing, you believe you're going
to make it on your own, instead of all those celebrity
climbers, all those fucking so-called "stars". You believe
you're gonna find success, get fame, gils and money.
You won't get any of that! lt actually takes everything.
And the fame, if you get any, is subjective and ridiculous.
Just listen to Skeme talking to his mother in Style Wars,
listen to how they don't get along. Lots of
disappointments, social or emotional, but also
disappointments directly related to graffiti. Like
incredible subway or train models disappearing forever,
before you even had a chance to paint them. Lots of
self-doubting too, asking yourself "What is it all for?'
When you shrt, yau don't care about the future. Fkst
because you're not old enough to be asking yourself
questions, and also because what attracts you is the fun
and marginal aspect of the instant. You're not coming
up with thearies or concepts. You staft doing that later
in your life-those who didn't give up do! As for myself, I
have trouble stating my case. Positive or negative? lf I
had to start over, would I do it? Honestly I have trouble
answering that. Obviously, it allowed me to develop a
huge open-mindedness, to see cities and places in a
way I probably never would have seen, to oxperience
things very few people expeienced or even imagined.
But for a long time I had the illusion that I could control
that escape, control its length and intensity, like if lwere
hanging on a whe connecting me to a real normality, or
a normal realv. But I think that wire broke a long time
ago, I even doubt it ever existed. What is attractive in
graffiti, is its marginality. But that exact marginality takes
over while pushing our social landmarks around.'
Eventually, seeing things the way they were before and
fitting into the mold becomes impossible. And there lies
the difficulty of redaployment (l do not like that word), to
ftnd a 'citizen job"! To tae the lina, close your eyes on all
the insane stuff happening all around the world and
paying taxes to finance the control of thoughts and
objects, and increased coercion! Wat is essential to
have in mind is that in tho end, you're always screwed.
Trying to escape allthat would be utopian. lt's the same
with graffiti, but at least you have an illusrln of freedom.
The hardest parl is evolving without disavowing yourself,
or running from yourseff. Many can't do it, but I hope I
can.
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