Interview with Opposition Leader, Tony Abbott

Sky News Sunday Agenda program, 20th December 2009

Helen Dalley: Good morning, Tony Abbott.

Tony Abbott: Good morning, Helen.

Helen Dalley: Now, do you say that this is an unmitigated disaster for Prime Minister
Rudd?

Tony Abbott: Look, I suppose good intentions are better than nothing, but Mr. Rudd has
failed his own test. He said a couple of years ago that what we needed to get were real
targets against real timelines. He said, real progress means real targets against real
timelines, and certainly by that standard it’s been a comprehensive failure.

Helen Dalley: Now you say good intentions, but would you agree in effect they snatched
victory from the jaws of defeat right at the last minute? Friday was not looking like there
was going to be a deal, but that the world leaders do deserve some praise for at least
getting some agreement in a big room with many, many competing interests?

Tony Abbott: But it’s not an agreement to do anything specific. We can all say let’s get
temperature increases down, but they haven’t said what they would do to bring that
about, so they’ve willed the ends but not the means.

Helen Dalley: So you don’t give them any credit for that?

Tony Abbott: Well it’s very easy to say let’s have world peace; it’s very hard to bring it
aboutt. Now they’ve said let’s not let the temperature go up by more than two degrees,
but they haven’t said how they’re going to achieve it.

Helen Dalley: But there could be room for national ways of doing that? It doesn’t have
to be prescriptive right from that agreement.

Tony Abbott: But no country at Copenhagen has committed to any particular way
forward. And that’s why I think it is very disappointing, and that’s why I think it’s very
hard for the prime minister who always said that real progress meant real targets against
real timelines. It’s very hard for him to claim any kind of a victory.

Helen Dalley: President Obama said the deal was not enough, but he called it an
unprecedented breakthrough. He’s right, isn’t he?

Tony Abbott: Well as I said, good intentions are better than nothing, but it has got to be
a terrible disappointment for the prime minister who said that real progress meant real
targets against real timelines. You see, what this shows I think, Helen, is that Kevin
Rudd was very unwise to try to rush Australia into prematurely adopting a commitment in
the absence of similar commitments from the rest of the world. And I think it certainly
entirely vindicates the Opposition’s stance in rejecting Mr. Rudd’s great big new tax on
everything, when the parliament was sitting earlier this month.

Helen Dalley: Alright, well before we get to Australia’s position, I mean the
unprecedented breakthrough in a sense was bringing the United States, China and

Sunday Agenda 20th December 2009 Tony Abbott

India, the very big emitters, at least into a deal. That’s a big step forward. They weren’t
in anything before.

Tony Abbott: But what is the deal? The deal doesn’t involve any specific means to get
to the commitment. And without the means, you’ve got to ask yourself how meaningful
is the commitment.

Helen Dalley: Can I ask you? In a sense the Liberals should like this deal. There’s
really no targets, there’s no specific year for when emissions are going to peak, and it’s
not legally binding, so that should suit your position?

Tony Abbott: Well our position is that we should take meaningful action to improve the
environment, but we think that the best way to improve the environment is through direct
action, not through whacking a great big tax on the Australian way of life. And that was
always the problem with Mr. Rudd’s approach. He was going to raise the price of things.
He wasn’t actually going to reduce emissions or improve the environment.

Helen Dalley: You’ve said this is a vindication of your party’s position. You’ll have a
new policy when the parliament resumes in February. Is that still the case? Or are now
you going to move again because there were no targets decided on?

Tony Abbott: No, we will have a strong and effective climate change policy, but it will
involve direct action to bring about reduced emissions and an improved environment.

Helen Dalley: But the Nationals oppose carbon sinks, they oppose massive tree
planting on arable land. How are you going to deal with that? That’s a potential
stumbling block for you.

Tony Abbott: Our policy is to actually make land more productive, not less productive.

Helen Dalley: But they have opposed tree planting.

Tony Abbott: Tree planting is all very well. It’s quite important, but it’s got to be on the
right land, not the wrong land. And the last thing we want to do is to take out of
production very good land. But there’s certainly a lot of land that would benefit. And the
country would benefit from more trees.

Helen Dalley: So you’re still going to go ahead with that and convince them that it won’t
be on farmable land or arable land?

Tony Abbott: Well I’ve been talking to the National Party obviously and I’m confident
that we’re absolutely on the same page on this one.

Helen Dalley: Alright, well eminent economist and Reserve Bank board member,
Warwick McKibben, has argued very strongly really, and again in the Financial Review in
the last few days, that a better way to go is to put a price on emissions, a price on
carbon, to be kept within an upper and a lower end, a price collar as he puts it. And that
in every country if you do that, together with a target to reduce emissions, then real
progress can be made. Do you see any sense in that?

Tony Abbott: Well he’s quite hostile to Mr. Rudd’s emissions trading scheme. That’s
what he’s against.

Sunday Agenda 20th December 2009 Tony Abbott

Helen Dalley: He’s also putting a price on carbon, which you’ve refused to do.

Tony Abbott: He’s putting forward his own way forward.

Helen Dalley: And do you see any sense in that?

Tony Abbott: Well I think he’s an outstanding person, Warwick McKibben. But our
policy is to reduce emissions by directly targeting emissions. We think that direct action
to reduce emissions is the way forward.

Helen Dalley: So the heavy polluters don’t have to pay any extra?

Tony Abbott: Well, we will directly reduce emissions, and one of the ways that you could
use to directly reduce emissions from power stations for instance, is the kind of new
technology that I saw and Mr. Rudd refused to see a week or so back at James Cook
University, which uses carbon dioxide and waste water from power stations to produce
algae which can then be turned into biofeed, stockfeed and biodiesel. Now this is a
commercial prospect right now, but it’s the kind of thing that Mr. Rudd isn’t interested in,
because it contradicts his insistence on a great big new tax on everything.

Helen Dalley: But Warwick McKibben says in effect you must put a price on carbon, and
you’re refusing to do that.

Tony Abbott: Well you don’t need to put a price on carbon to get the significant emission
reductions that we are currently committed to.

Helen Dalley: So what do you think’s going to happen now and what are you asking the
government to do? I mean, Mr. Rudd has said he’s going to push forward with the ETS,
that’s what he was elected on, and that’s what they were elected on. Why would he
change that view?

Tony Abbott: Well I think that in the wake of this big rebuff to Mr. Rudd in Copenhagen,
he really should go back to the drawing board.

Helen Dalley: So scrap the ETS?

Tony Abbott: If he’s not prepared to do that, at the very least he should now be
prepared to have the big debate with me and with the Australian people about his
scheme. I mean Julia Gillard was asked seven times on Lateline during the week to
explain the cost impact on average families of Mr. Rudd’s great big new tax, and she
couldn’t do it. Mr. Rudd himself fudged this three times on Sky News last week. Now if
the government can’t explain the cost impact for families, they’re in trouble.

Helen Dalley: But what will be the cost impact for yours?

Tony Abbott: Well, I’m not saying that you can make big changes without cost. But
there won’t be a great big new tax. You see the government’s figures are shifting all the
time, Helen. We had new treasury modelling come out during the week, seep out during
the week, which showed that 700,000 Australian households will miss out on
compensation under the government scheme. Now if the government can’t explain the

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costs, can’t explain the compensation, plainly they don’t really know what they’re talking
about, at least as far as the Australian public are concerned.

Helen Dalley: But you’ll have to explain yours too. Look, while we’re talking about tax, I
want to move onto the Henry Tax Review, and there are media reports this weekend that
the Henry Review will propose a national land tax on homes and on investment
properties to replace state based stamp duties. Are you in favour of that?

Tony Abbott: Well it looks like that the Henry Review is going to propose higher taxes,
and we’ve been saying all along that Mr. Rudd’s debt and deficit would have to be paid
for ultimately by higher taxes.

Helen Dalley: But as we understand, this one is going to replace state based stamp
duty, so it’s not necessarily a higher tax. We don’t know that it’s a higher tax. Would
you be in favour of such a thing?

Tony Abbott: I think the public would be rightly suspicious of these replacement taxes,
and they would understand that when you’ve got $200 billion worth of extra debt, much
higher government spending, it all has to be paid for. And that ultimately means higher
taxes.

Helen Dalley: So you don’t think the electorate would wear that?

Tony Abbott: I think the electorate will be very suspicious of new taxes from the Rudd
government.

Helen Dalley: More generally speaking, you’ve only been in the leadership a very short
amount of time. You’ve said you’re going to oppose, that you’re going to really not be a
government in exile, that you’re going to really keep the government in check. Now is
being oppositionist enough to propel you into being prime minister? At some point do
you have to convince the voters that you’ve got policies that they like and bring the
middle ground in with you?

Tony Abbott: Of course I do, Helen. The first job of Opposition is to be critical of the
government where it deserves criticism. I mean we have to demonstrate to the public
that the government doesn’t deserve to be re-elected. Then of course we have to
demonstrate . . .

Helen Dalley: . . . But we’re coming up to an election year and you’re still talking about
being oppositionist.

Tony Abbott: Then we have to demonstrate to the government that we are a worthy
alternative, that we have policies that make sense and that will improve the lives of
ordinary people. And I’m confident that in the run up to the election that’s exactly what
we’ll do.

Helen Dalley: You and your team, including National senator, Barnaby Joyce, have
been likened to the Joe for PM bandwagon, as Kevin Rudd put it during the week, that
rolled towards Canberra in 1987, but eventually self-immolated. And it hurt John
Howard. Is that the case?

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Tony Abbott: Well, I’m in Canberra. I’ve been there for 15 or 16 years. I think these
kinds of cheap shots from the government just show that for the first time in two years,
Kevin Rudd really is a bit rattled.

Helen Dalley: But do you think it’s a possibility that the Nationals, Barnaby Joyce was
very vociferous about certain issues, you didn’t put him back in his place, and that some
of those issues are heading to Canberra and could be policy?

Tony Abbott: Well I am pleased that we now have a strong Coalition and I am pleased
that the National Party and the Liberal Party are very much at one, because the lesson
of history is that for us to win, we do need a strong and united Coalition.

Helen Dalley: And on a different news matter today, Mary MacKillop is closer to
sainthood. As a Catholic, that must please you?

Tony Abbott: It pleases me as an Australian, because she was a great Australian who
worked incredibly hard for the betterment of our country, particularly for the education of
women. So look, I am satisfied. I hope all Australians are pleased at this development.
But the last thing I would want to do is to politicise it, Helen.

Helen Dalley: Do you think it will help the Catholic Church in Australia?

Tony Abbott: Well I hope so. I hope it helps the cause of women. I hope that it helps
the cause of education, and I hope that people understand that you can make a
difference, looking at her example.

Helen Dalley: Tony Abbott, we’ll leave it there. Have a good Christmas, a break if you
get it, and thanks very much for joining us.

Tony Abbott: I suspect I might be seeing you and the viewers a bit over the holiday
period.

Helen Dalley: Thanks, Tony.

Tony Abbott: Thanks, Helen.

Sunday Agenda 20th December 2009 Tony Abbott