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IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE CENTRAL DISTRICT OF ILLINOIS
SPRINGFIELD DIVISION
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
PLAINTIFF,
VS.
LEON DINGLE, JR. and KARIN
DINGLE,
DEFENDANTS,

A P P E A R A N C E S:
FOR THE PLAINTIFF:

MR. TIMOTHY A. BASS
MR. ERIC I. LONG
ASST. U.S. ATTORNEYS
318 SOUTH SIXTH
SPRINGFIELD, ILLINOIS

FOR DEFENDANT LEON DINGLE:

MR. EDWARD M. GENSON
MS. BLAIR C. DALTON
ATTORNEYS AT LAW
53 W. JACKSON
CHICAGO, ILLINOIS

FOR DEFENDANT KARIN DINGLE:

MR. RONALD J. CLARK
ATTORNEY AT LAW
820 W. JACKSON BLVD.
CHICAGO, ILLINOIS

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SPRINGFIELD, ILLINOIS

OCTOBER 1, 2014

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12-30098

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
BEFORE THE HONORABLE RICHARD MILLS
UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE

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COURT REPORTER:

KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
600 E. MONROE
SPRINGFIELD, ILLINOIS
(217)492-4810

KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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I N D E X
WITNESS

DIRECT

CROSS

REDIRECT

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E X H I B I T S
GOVERNMENT'S EXHIBIT
NUMBER

IDENTIFIED

ADMITTED

DEFENDANT'S EXHIBIT
NUMBER

IDENTIFIED

ADMITTED

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KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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P R O C E E D I N G S
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THE COURT:

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Thank you, Madam Clerk.

Good

Well, it's a lovely day out there today, but I
hear we've got bad weather on the way.

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ever thus, so we're just glad to be here.

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afternoon, everyone.

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All right.

But it is

This is cause number 12-30098,

entitled United States of America versus Leon

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Dingle, Jr., and Karin Dingle.

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defendants are present in open court in their own

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proper persons.

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his counsel of record, Mr. Edward Genson.

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see you again, Mr. Genson.

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Both of the

And Mr. Dingle is represented by
Nice to

And also by Blaire Dalton, I believe.
Ms. Dalton, so nice to have you.
And Ronald J. Clark is present on behalf of
Mrs. Dingle.

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MR. CLARK:

Good afternoon, Your Honor.

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THE COURT:

Mr. Clark, nice to see you.

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MR. CLARK:

Thank you.

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THE COURT:

And of course both the

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defendants are present in their own proper persons.

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The Government is represented by Assistant

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United States Attorney Timothy A. Bass, Mr. Bass.
KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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And also by Mr. Eric Long.

Mr. Long, nice to

have you with us.
We also have present at the Government's table

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from the U.S. Postal Department, Inspector, is it

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Basil or Basil?

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MR. DEMCZAK:

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THE COURT:

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MR. DEMCZAK:

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THE COURT:

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Basil.
Demczak?
Demczak.
And also Special Agent from the

IRS, Mr. Landon Smith.
All right.

Very good.

Then I guess those are all of our

players at the moment.
Now, one little housekeeping thing I want to

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clear up before we proceed for the final pre-trial

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conference.

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have references to Mr. Dingle and to Dr. Dingle.

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And I would like to get that clarified off the head

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end here.

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Now, Mr. Genson, what is the title doctor,
either behind or in front of --

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And that is the question of title.

MR. GENSON:
Your Honor.

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THE COURT:

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MR. GENSON:

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He has a doctorate degree,

Beg your pardon?
A doctorate degree, Your

Honor.
KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

We

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THE COURT:

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MR. GENSON:

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THE COURT:

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MR. GENSON:

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THE COURT:

Public health.

And where was

Union College.
And that is a Doctor of Public

Health.

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MR. GENSON:

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THE COURT:

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MR. GENSON:

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THE COURT:

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Public health, Your Honor.

that obtained?

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Of what?

All right.

Ph.D.
It's a Ph.D.
Yes, Your Honor.
Very well.

Then in that case we may utilize

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that title throughout the course of the case and the

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trial if that is your desire.

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MR. GENSON:

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THE COURT:

It is, Your Honor.
All right.

But I want it to be

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clearly understood that the jury is going to be made

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aware of what that title is and what it represents,

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rather than leave them with the impression that he

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is a medical doctor.

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MR. GENSON:

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THE COURT:

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We understand, Your Honor.
All right, fine.

Any problem

with that, gentlemen?
MR. BASS:

No, Your Honor.

We intended to

do that anyway, so...
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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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THE COURT:

Well, we'll get that all

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cleared out so we don't have any kind of adversarial

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situation.

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end.

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We'll just clarify that at the very head

And let me take care of that.

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that matter with the jury.

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have any other discussion about it.

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MR. GENSON:

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THE COURT:

I will handle

So I do not expect to
All right?

Yes, Your Honor.
So if you, Mr. Genson, would

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prepare me a short biography for Dr. Dingle.

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does not have to be long and elaborate, just a very

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short one, so that I will have all of the details

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when I begin the jury voir dire.

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Okay?

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MR. GENSON:

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THE COURT:

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Yes, Your Honor.
Good.

We'll get that settled

right off the beginning.
Now, to our final pre-trial, let's get the

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background.

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Dingle, are charged by superseding indictment with a

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number of counts, including conspiracy to defraud

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the United States in violation of Title 18 U.S. Code

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371, mail fraud in violation of Title 18 U.S. Code

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1341, and engaging in monetary transactions in

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property derived from specified unlawful activity,

The defendants, Leon Dingle and Karin

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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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money laundering, in violation of Title 18 U.S. Code

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1957(a).

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Now, my understanding is that the defendants

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Jacquelyn Kilpatrick and Edmond Clemons are planning

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to enter guilty pleas prior to trial, while Mr. and

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Mrs. Dingle, Dr. Dingle and his wife, intend to

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proceed to trial.

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Now, in reviewing the docket I see that

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Mr. Clemons has a change of plea hearing set for

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tomorrow before Judge Schanzle-Haskins.

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Mr. Wise advised my chambers by telephone that

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Ms. Kilpatrick intends to proceed in a similar

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manner prior to October the 20th, which is the date

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we're set to begin.

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And

Now, as I stated, the jury trial is currently

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set to begin on March 20, 2014.

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Schanzle-Haskins will be outside the district that

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week, jury selection will begin before me at

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9:00 a.m. on that day in this courtroom.

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Today this is a motion hearing and slash final

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pre-trial conference.

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motions.

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And because Judge

There are a few pending

When we last met there were issues surrounding

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the Government's Santiago proffer and alleged

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co-conspirator statements.

So today would be a good

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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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time to address any issues regarding admissibility

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that remain as to the Santiago proffer.

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On August the 25th, 2014, the Government filed

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its Santiago proffer wherein it summarizes the

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evidence it intends to present, including the

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evidence relating to the alleged conspiracy.

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further notes its intent; subject to the Court's

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approval, of course; to present a number of alleged

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co-conspirator statements of the defendants charged

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in this case or statements of third parties alleged

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to be part of the conspiracy.

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And

Dr. Dingle's response essentially contends that

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the Santiago proffer fails to specifically identify

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any co-conspirator statements the Government may

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seek to introduce and without that information the

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Court cannot make the required findings to determine

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the admissibility of the statements.

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Now, is that about where we stand at the
moment, Mr. Bass, for the Government?
MR. BASS:

That's the state of the record.

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I'm not sure what the defense's position is on

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continuing in that position and their response.

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you've accurately stated the state of the record

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with respect to that proffer.

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THE COURT:

All right.

But

Then I'll turn to

KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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you, Mr. Genson.

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MS. DALTON:

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THE COURT:

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MS. DALTON:

Yes, Your Honor.
Ah, thank you, Ms. Dalton.
Our filing in response to the

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Government's Santiago proffer also went into the

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fact that we don't think that the Government has

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established by preponderance of the evidence that

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specifically Quinn Golden and Roxanne Jackson were

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members of the conspiracy and thus their statements

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should not be admissible as co-conspirator

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statements.

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didn't allude to any specific statements so that

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Your Honor could make his opinion about whether or

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not they've met their burden by a preponderance of

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the evidence.

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In addition to the fact that they

In addition to that, we've been informed that

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Ms. Golden will most likely not be testifying on

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behalf of the Government.

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THE COURT:

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MS. DALTON:

She will not be?
Correct, Your Honor.

Other

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than that, that's where we rest as far as the

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Santiago proffer response is concerned.

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THE COURT:

All right.

Thank you.

Mr. Bass.
MR. BASS:

Your Honor, do you have the

KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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Government's proffer before you?

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THE COURT:

I do.

I have it here.

Just a

second.
Got her.
MR. BASS:

Your Honor, what the Government

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did in its Santiago proffer is, as you mentioned,

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laid out -- attempted to lay out a summary of our

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evidence in some detail.

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type of co-conspirator statements that we intend to

And then categorized the

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introduce, with the preface that we don't expect

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that there will be a significant amount of

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co-conspirator statements because that evidence we

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expect to come in for other reasons, such as not for

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the truth of the matter asserted or as admissions of

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the defendants themselves.

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So we expect there to be a limited amount of

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co-conspirator statements, primarily coming from

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Ms. Kilpatrick, who is going to plead guilty and

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testify in this trial.

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pled guilty and will testify in this trial.

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Ms. Golden, who will not testify.

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summarized the evidence in our proffer of what we

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expect to present to establish by a preponderance.

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And Ms. Jackson, who has
And

But we've

Now, it's not a requirement of the law that the
Government essentially provide a transcript of every
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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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question that it's going to ask that might elicit a

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co-conspirator statement.

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faith, to categorize the type of co-conspirator

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statements that we expect to elicit.

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We've tried, in good

In addition, we've provided the interview

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reports of every -- and Grand Jury transcript of

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every witness that could possibly be -- that the

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Government could possibly call in this case on our

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witness list.

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We've also provided e-mails.

And those really

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will be with respect to all the three -- all

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co-conspirator statements.

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co-conspirator statements will come from e-mails

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between Ms. Golden and Ms. Kilpatrick or Mr. Dingle.

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We have provided those.

Several of those

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So short of a transcript of what we expect

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these witnesses to testify, we have provided to the

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defense everything that we expect to present by way

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of evidence.

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complied with what a proffer is required to do.

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And I think in that respect we've

So as to the sufficiency of the evidence, Your

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Honor, the defendants are charged with conspiracy.

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If we don't prove the conspiracy, then obviously

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we're gonna have a directed verdict.

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submit that the evidence that we've summarized in

But I would

KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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the proffer, as well as what was supplemented with

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respect to Ms. Golden, and what we're gonna address

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here today with respect to the motion in limine;

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that being that the Government seeks to admit

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evidence regarding Mr. Dingle's relationship with

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Ms. Golden and the payment of money to a witness

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during the time period of this conspiracy.

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other evidence with respect to Ms. Golden, we

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believe, establishes her involvement in the charged

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That

conspiracy.
So I think we've established -- I think we've

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done what we're required to do with respect to the

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submission of a proffer and I would submit that the

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evidence we've summarized more than establishes the

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basis for the Court to make a preponderance of the

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evidence finding.

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THE COURT:

All right.

Mr. Bass.

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MS. DALTON:

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THE COURT:

Your Honor, if I may respond.
Well of course you may.

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never said no yet.

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there's always a first time.

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Thank you,

MS. DALTON:

I've

And I doubt that I will, but

It will be short.

Just based on the Government's response, we'd
ask the Court to defer ruling on this motion on the
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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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Santiago proffer --

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THE COURT:

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MS. DALTON:

To do what?
Defer ruling until trial,

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until there's an offer of proof with actual

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statements presented to the Court.

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Yes, the defense has received all the witness

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statements and all the e-mails, but the Court

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hasn't.

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what statements the Government intends to use to

And the Court hasn't been able to discern

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establish that there was a conspiracy and that this

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witness may or may not, in fact, be a

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co-conspirator.

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So for that reason, we'd ask the Court to defer

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ruling until an offer of proof has been made where

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the Court can adequately determine whether or not

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the Government has established a conspiracy by a

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preponderance of the evidence.

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MR. BASS:

No objection to that, Your

Honor.

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THE COURT:

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MR. BASS:

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THE COURT:

Beg your pardon?
No objection to that.
Well, fine, I accept that, but

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with a caveat.

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try this case twice.

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trial and then all of the sudden have a stoppage and

And that is that we're not going to
And I don't intend to get into

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then we have to send the jury out and I'm gonna

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start hearing testimony and evidence to see whether

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or not we live up to the Government's projection.

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Now we're not gonna do that.

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But I will certainly defer ruling until

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everything comes in and then we'll call it.

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as the Government's pointed out, if they don't make

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it, there's going to be a directed verdict.

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nobody wants that particularly; except perhaps the

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defendants.

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We're gonna do this by the numbers.

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So I will defer the ruling until sufficient
evidence comes in to support the Government's

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position.

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all over.

And if it doesn't, as Mr. Bass says, it's

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MS. DALTON:

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THE COURT:

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And

But we're not gonna go that route.

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Because

Now, let's see.

Thank you.
Okay.

Very good.

All right, we'll defer the

ruling on that.
I think most of the pending motions are now

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fully briefed.

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motion in limine pertaining to a number of the

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issues and the Government has responded.

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responses include a summary of the anticipated

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evidence.

Dr. Dingle has filed a consolidated

KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

The

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The Dingles have also filed a reply to the

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motion.

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exclusion, the arguments appealing to jurors as tax

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payers, which I believe the Government acknowledges

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would be inappropriate.

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and arguments referencing former Government Rod

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Blagojevich.

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regarding allegations of Dr. Dingle's infidelity.

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And the motion in limine seeks the

And secondly, any evidence

And three, evidence and arguments

Now, is there anything we need to address other
than what's already in the briefs?

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MS. DALTON:

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THE COURT:

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MS. DALTON:

Yes, Your Honor.
All right, fine.

Ms. Dalton.

We've already informed the

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Government that we intended to orally amend our

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motion in limine, our third motion in limine, as it

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relates to certain physical relationships that have

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been alleged to have occurred between Dr. Dingle and

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a number of witnesses.

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Within the responses and replies to that motion

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there's discussions about Quinn Golden, as well as

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somebody, a witness that's been labeled as MA.

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We'd like to amend our motion to include a

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couple additional witnesses.

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upon some additional statements from some witnesses,

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one of which we'll label as GW for the time being.

The Government came

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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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THE COURT:

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MS. DALTON:

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THE COURT:

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MS. DALTON:

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THE COURT:

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MS. DALTON:

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G as in -G as in George.

And W as in

Washington?

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E as --

Correct.
All right.

GW, thank you.

To include this GW witness.

The Government, in prepping for trial,
interviewed that witness again.

That witness -- we

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haven't seen the statement, but I'm going based on

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what Mr. Bass has told me.

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agents that she had a romantic relationship with

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Dr. Dingle and that at some point during that

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romantic relationship she was paid $700.

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Apparently GW told

It would be the defendant's position that that

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implies no evidence one way or the other and is

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certainly not relevant to this case.

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romantic relationship that she alleges to have

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occurred.

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Government would intend to use it; that at some

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point Dr. Dingle gave her $700.

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or indication that she believed that $700 was in

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exchange for anything else or in response to the

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work that she was doing on the grants.

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One being the

Two; and I believe this is why the

THE COURT:

There's no evidence

What do you mean anything else?

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MS. DALTON:

She did not -- we haven't seen

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the statement, again, so this is all speculation

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based on what we've been told by Mr. Bass.

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didn't make any indication that she thought the $700

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was in exchange for anything.

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it was just Dr. Dingle giving her $700.

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small amount of money.

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Or a loan.

But she

I believe
Obviously a

But I believe that's what the Government
intends to introduce through that witness.

We would

object and ask that they not be allowed to do so.
The other witness would be -- the Government

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has alleged that -- or has claimed that they intend

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to introduce evidence through a witness we'll call

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E, as in egg, W as in Washington, and Ms. Golden.

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This has nothing to do with Dr. Dingle.

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relevance to the case.

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Has no

Other than that, there's an additional issue

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that's outside of that particular motion in limine

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that also has to do with witness EW that we can

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discuss with the Court after we're finishing with

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the motion in limine discussion, if the Court

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decides that's the best way to proceed.

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I can go into it now.

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THE COURT:
right now.

Otherwise,

Well, why don't we go into it

Let's just -- as these matters come up,
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OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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if we defer them and put something else in between

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then, everything is confused.

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be best if we just, while we're on it and while

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you've made the statement, why don't we pursue that.

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MS. DALTON:

So I think it would

Okay.

This witness, EW, the Government I think will

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be filing a motion or requesting that the Court deem

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this witness to be a hostile witness in reference to

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this one particular question, whether or not this

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witness, EW, did or did not have a sexual

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relationship with Quinn Golden.

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THE COURT:

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MS. DALTON:

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THE COURT:

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MS. DALTON:

With who?
Quinn Golden.
Quinn Golden.

All right.

Witness EW in proffer answered

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every single question posed to him by the Government

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other than the question of whether or not he had, in

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fact, this sexual relationship with Quinn Golden.

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That is, I believe, why the --

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THE COURT:

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MS. DALTON:

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THE COURT:

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MS. DALTON:

Is that Goldwin or Golden?
Golden.
Thank you.
I believe the Government wants

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to declare EW as a hostile witness so that the

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Government can ask him this question in trial and so
KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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that he, while under oath, he has to testify to it.
We have received an affidavit from EW's

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attorneys affirming that their client, EW, when he

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takes the stand, if he's called to take the stand,

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will testify truthfully and accurately as to that

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question if it is possessed to him.

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Government -- or if the Court does not object to it.

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Or if we object and the Court does not sustain that

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objection.

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If the

So for that reason, EW is not a hostile

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witness, should not be declared a hostile witness,

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because he will answer truthfully per the affidavit

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of his lawyer.

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And that ties into this motion in limine in the

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sense that we still do not believe that any sort of

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indication or testimony regarding any relationship

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between Quinn Golden and EW is relevant to this

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case.

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Dr. Dingle was charged with and should be precluded

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from being introduced into evidence.

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It has nothing to do with Dr. Dingle or what

THE COURT:

We're talking about

EW's attorney making an affidavit?

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MS. DALTON:

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THE COURT:

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All right.

Correct.

It was --

How can he make an affidavit

that EW is going to testify truthfully?
KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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MS. DALTON:

Well, EW has been asked by the

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Government to come back in and continue a proffer

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and respond to questions regarding his sexual

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relationship with Quinn Golden.

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advised him, EW, that that type of information is

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not necessary as it relates to Dr. Dingle's case and

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does not need to come in and just answer questions

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about his private sexual relationships to the

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Government in a proffer.

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His attorney has

However, if he is called to the stand and under

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oath is asked those same questions, he will answer

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truthfully.

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to that nature.

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He will not refuse to answer questions

THE COURT:

Okay.

We'll see what Mr. Bass

has to say now.
Did you have anything else, Ms. Dalton?

I

didn't mean to cut you off.

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MS. DALTON:

No.

We basically can rest on

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what we've already asserted within our motion in

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limine.

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rest.

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As to Governor Blagojevich, we certainly

As to the allegations of any romantic

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relationships between Dr. Dingle and other

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witnesses, we've indicated and briefed it in full;

25

that we do not think it's relevant, we think it's
KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

21

1

extremely prejudicial to the case.

2

to do with the serious nature of the allegations

3

that are alleged against Dr. Dingle, will end up

4

confusing the jury, and leaving the entire

5

courtroom; the attorneys, the jury; to focus on the

6

truth and accuracy of these alleged sexual

7

relationships and will take aware from the serious

8

nature of the charges against Dr. Dingle.

9

That would be about it.

10

THE COURT:

11

MS. DALTON:

12

THE COURT:

13
14

It has nothing

Okay.
Thank you, Judge.
Thank you, Ms. Dalton.

All right, Mr. Bass.
MR. BASS:

Your Honor, if I -- if you

15

recall, at the last hearing we asked, or I asked,

16

because of the importance of the issues raised in

17

the defendant's motion in limine, that we be able to

18

address that directly with Your Honor today.

19

that's -- that's what we're doing now.

20

And

But I just -- if Your Honor will recall that,

21

that I know you said that they've been briefed, but

22

because of the importance of these issues to the

23

Government, thank you for the opportunity to address

24

Your Honor directly.

25

THE COURT:

Well, sure.

KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
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1
2
3

MR. BASS:

I think it's important now to go

back and look -THE COURT:

Listen, people, I want it

4

clearly understood that I would much rather that we

5

wrangle about these things well in advance of

6

getting the jury in the box than having these

7

surprises come up.

8

try -- at least I don't try cases by ambush or by

9

laying in the weeds and then having something come

This is not fun.

And we don't

10

up that all of the sudden taints the whole problem.

11

We don't want that.

12

Now, they're entitled to a fair trial.

And

13

they're gonna get one in this courtroom.

14

want these things to be brought out and let's get

15

these out of the way and move on.

16
17
18
19

And so I

So you're not at all inconveniencing me.

I

want to make that clear.
Okay, go ahead, Mr. Bass.
MR. BASS:

So, Your Honor, I'll try to be

20

brief, but I may not be -- I'll try to be brief, but

21

because of the -- because of the importance of these

22

issues and the evidence, I think it's important for

23

Your Honor -- for the Government to make sure that

24

Your Honor is aware of the Government's reason for

25

the admission of this evidence.
KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER

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1

So we go back to the indictment.

Your Honor,

2

this isn't the first case, this isn't the first

3

corruption or fraud cause that's based on political

4

influence, access, money, and personal

5

relationships, including relationships that are

6

sexual in nature.

7

only or will it be the last.

8
9
10
11

This certainly isn't the first or

The Government -- the allegations in the
indictment are that the time period, relevant time
period is 2004 to 2010.
During that time period, Rod Blagojevich was

12

the Governor.

13

called BASUAH, Brothers and Sisters United Against

14

HIV/AIDS; a program designed to address the HIV/AIDS

15

problems within the minority community.

16

In 2005, he announced an initiative

Governor Blagojevich appointed Eric Whitaker as

17

his Director of Public Health.

18

appointed Quinn Golden as his Chief of Staff.

19

Dr. Whitaker

Two years later, in 2007, Governor Blagojevich

20

announced another initiative, the Faith Based

21

Initiative Emergency -- Faith Based Emergency

22

Preparedness Initiative post Katrina; an initiative

23

designed to educate the minority community on

24

emergency preparedness.

25

So there were these two initiatives announced
KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
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1

by Governor Blagojevich during his term, during

2

Dr. Whitaker's term, and during Ms. Golden's term as

3

Dr. Whitaker's Chief of Staff.

4

initiatives were implemented through the Department

5

of Public Health, of which Dr. Whitaker was the

6

director and Ms. Golden was the Chief of Staff.

7

And those

Now, with respect to the motion about excluding

8

the name Blagojevich; the defense is essentially

9

asking that the Government go through presenting its

10

evidence in this case as if to pretend that the

11

Governor who implemented these initiatives that are

12

the basis of the case didn't exist.

13

refer to him as the Governor.

14

Or we just

But the allegations in the indictment and the

15

evidence in this case, Your Honor, will establish

16

that Dr. Dingle took advantage of and exploited his

17

personal relationships with various people,

18

including Governor Blagojevich.

19

bragged about his relationship with Governor

20

Blagojevich.

21

some of his -- the grantees that are the witnesses

22

in this case attend Governor Blagojevich's

23

fund-raiser and contribute to Governor Blagojevich.

24
25

And that Dr. Dingle

That he attended a fund-raiser and had

But again -- and Dr. Dingle had access to not
only Governor Blagojevich, but to his Deputy Chief
KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
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1

of Staff who was involved with the Department of

2

Public Health in implementing these initiatives.

3

So in short, Your Honor, the evidence relating

4

to Governor Blagojevich and his administration,

5

going from Governor Blagojevich himself down to

6

Dr. Whitaker and then his successor, Damon Arnold,

7

and Ms. Golden, will be that Dr. Dingle had unique

8

and non-merit-based relationships with each of these

9

people who were deciding how state money was being

10

awarded.

11

to the Governor, Governor Blagojevich, and officials

12

within his administration.

13

That's the basis for at -- for referring

Now, we don't intend to dwell on the name

14

Blagojevich or make any allegation that just because

15

Dr. Dingle was an associate or had access to

16

Blagojevich and just because Blagojevich is guilty

17

of some fraud previously that that makes Dr. Dingle

18

guilty.

19

that at all.

20

We don't intend to assert that or imply

But we do intend to present evidence that

21

Dr. Dingle had this unique relationship, unique

22

access to and influence with the very officials who

23

were awarding state money.

24

that is not only relevant, it's directly relevant to

25

allegations in the indictment as to whether

And it's our view that

KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
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26

1

Dr. Dingle, on a non-merit-based basis received

2

state money which he then diverted to his personal

3

use and that of his wife.

4

So I don't think, with respect to the motion to

5

exclude the name Blagojevich, I don't think that we

6

need to go to the extreme of excluding any reference

7

to the very -- to the name of the very

8

administration that authorized these funds that are

9

alleged to have been stolen by Dr. Dingle to begin

10
11

with.

That is unnecessary, Your Honor.

And to the extent there's any risk of unfair

12

prejudice, Your Honor can simply instruct the jury

13

with a mere association instruction that says merely

14

associating with persons engaged in criminal

15

activity does not make the defendant guilty of a

16

crime.

17

7th Circuit that could address any risk by the

18

mention of the name Blagojevich.

19

That's a standard pattern instruction of the

Now, with respect to the balance of the motion,

20

Your Honor; the motion to exclude evidence relating

21

to what has been characterized as Dr. Dingle's

22

alleged infidelity.

23

We don't intend to introduce evidence of

24

infidelity for its own sake.

25

do is to introduce evidence of Dr. Dingle's personal

What we do intend to

KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
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27

1

relationships with people who were in control of

2

grant money or who received grant money from

3

Dr. Dingle.

4

relationship and -- relationships with these people

5

and his receipt of grant money was not arm's length,

6

was not merit-based, but was based on him taking

7

advantage of or at least exploiting his personal

8

relationships, unique personal relationships with

9

these people.

10

Again, to establish that Dr. Dingle's

Beginning with Quinn Golden.

She's an alleged

11

conspirator in this -- in the Government's -- not in

12

the indictment, but the indictment references that

13

the defendants conspired with others.

14

those others is Quinn Golden as we allege in our

15

Santiago profer.

16

Well, one of

Quinn Golden was Eric Whitaker's Chief of

17

Staff.

18

EW is the Eric Whitaker, the Director of Department

19

of Public Health.

20

Staff.

21

He's EW, for clarity's sake for Your Honor.

Quinn Golden was his Chief of

Again, the Government's evidence will establish

22

that Dr. Dingle had unique access to both

23

Dr. Whitaker and Quinn Golden during the time that

24

Dr. Whitaker and Ms. Golden were awarding state

25

grants to Dr. Dingle.
KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
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28

1

In fact, one of the pieces of that we're going

2

to introduce, Your Honor, is that Dr. Dingle

3

sponsored and paid for awards.

4

Unity Globe Award, to Dr. Whitaker and Ms. Golden.

5

And then a second award called a Female Ebony

6

Strength Award for Ms. Golden.

7

received a plaque at a cost of $745, paid for by

8

Dr. Dingle during the time that Dr. Whitaker and

9

Ms. Golden were approving state grants that they

One award, called a

Each of whom

10

knew were going to Dr. Dingle.

11

the relationships with the people awarding state

12

money.

Again, evidence of

13

Now, during that very time period that they

14

were -- that Ms. Golden was awarding state grants to

15

Dr. Dingle, or organizations that he was associated

16

with, one of the types of grants that were involved

17

here was -- were these grants associated with the

18

Faith Based Initiative, the emergency preparedness

19

initiative to educate the minority community.

20

And MA is one of -- who we referenced in our

21

response to the motion in limine; MA was a person

22

hired by Dr. Dingle and paid for by Dr. Dingle to

23

work on that initiative.

24

that she essentially was largely responsible for

25

preparing that initiative.

She's going to testify

Or at least the initial

KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
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1

stages of it.

2

participated closely with Dr. Dingle and Ms. Golden

3

in implementing it.

4

two of them.

5

That she wrote the initiative and

So she worked closely with the

One day she was summoned to Ms. Golden's

6

office, she will testify.

7

Ms. Golden's office unannounced and there she found

8

Dr. Dingle and Ms. Golden huddled close together

9

behind Ms. Golden's desk.

10
11

And she walked into

And surprising to

Mr. Dingle and Mr. Golden.
And when Ms. Golden turned around to speak with

12

MA, MA observed; this isn't opinion testimony, this

13

is what she will testify she observed; Ms. Golden

14

partially undressed and re-dressing herself from the

15

waist up.

16

Ms. Golden said to MA, you're doing such a great

17

job, we're gonna pay you an additional $10,000.

18

we have the checks that show that Dr. Dingle did

19

just that.

20

Following which, with Dr. Dingle present,

And

And Ms. Kilpatrick, Dr. Dingle's associate,

21

whose gonna testify in this case, will testify that

22

she was told by Dr. Dingle and MA to pay Ms. -- MA

23

an additional $10,000.

24
25

Now, the Government is going to argue that's a
reasonable inference -- that the reasonable
KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
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30

1
2

inference to be drawn from that is hush money.
But the evidence relating to Dr. Dingle and

3

Ms. Golden, what MA saw, is again, Dr. Dingle's

4

relationship with Ms. Golden, unique relationship,

5

non-arm's length, non-merit-based, during the time

6

that Ms. Golden was awarding state grant money that

7

went to Dr. Dingle's benefit.

8
9

Now, that's not infidelity for its own sake.
That's evidence of a personal relationship.

And

10

it's certainly evidence of whether or not Dr. Dingle

11

and Ms. Golden were in a conspiracy together.

12

In addition, during that same time period that

13

Dr. Dingle was receiving money from Ms. Golden,

14

Ms. Golden directed Roxanne Jackson; who's pled

15

guilty, along with Ms. Golden, to conspiracy to

16

commit bribery; Ms. Golden directed Dr. Dingle to

17

hire Ms. Jackson as part of these grants.

18

Dr. Dingle did what he was told, he hired

19

Ms. Jackson.

20

a million dollars in less than a year in grant

21

funds, which Ms. Jackson then turned around and

22

kicked back half of to Ms. Golden.

23

is going to testify to that.

And then he paid her three-quarters of

And Ms. Jackson

24

Again, evidence of the relationship between

25

Dr. Dingle, Ms. Golden, and Ms. Jackson, all of whom
KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
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31

1

are alleged in our proffer as co-conspirators.

2

that's the basis, the critical basis, for why we

3

introduce this evidence of the relationship.

4

Now, it happens to be that the relationship

5

apparently was sexual in part.

6

non-arm's length basis of that relationship that

7

goes to the core of the allegations in the

8

indictment.

9

So

But it's the unique,

With respect to the -- other relationships that

10

we intend to introduce, Your Honor, that are sexual

11

or romantic in part.

12

There's another woman who will testify in this

13

case, and her name is Gwendolyn Woolridge.

14

the -- she was an employee of the Department of

15

Public Health who reported to Ms. Golden.

16

one of the employees who was instrumental in writing

17

up one of the grants that were awarded -- that was

18

awarded to Dr. Dingle.

19

She was

She was

During the time that she was writing up that

20

grant, she was in a dating relationship with

21

Dr. Dingle.

22

taking her to the Yacht Club.

23

He was taking her out to dinner, he was

And during that time, Ms. Woolridge will

24

testify that she was experiencing financial

25

problems.

And she told Dr. Dingle about that and he
KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
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32

1

provided her with $700 as a loan, which she never

2

paid back.

3

What is the relevance of that testimony?

That

4

Dr. Dingle is in a personal relationship with

5

someone who is making decisions regarding state

6

money.

7

that's Gwendolyn Woolridge.

8
9
10
11

A unique, non-merit-based relationship.

So

Another woman who's going to testify is Claudia
Johnson.

She is CJ in our motion -- our response to

the motion in limine.
The indictment alleges there were three

12

grantees who received a total of $11 million in

13

grant funds during this time period which Dr. Dingle

14

and Mrs. Dingle are alleged to have converted as

15

much as $3.7 million or more of.

16

The indictment alleges that Ms. Golden and

17

others at the Department of Public Health awarded

18

$11 million in grant funds to these three grantees;

19

one of which was an organization called AWARE.

20

Ms. Johnson ran AWARE, so she was one of the

21

grantees who received state money.

22

During the time -- prior to the time that she

23

applied as a grantee for state money, she began --

24

she and Dr. Dingle began a romantic, dating

25

relationship.

And that relationship continued
KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
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33

1

during the time that Ms. Johnson was applying for

2

$1.8 million in state funds.

3

She will testify that Dr. Dingle and her were

4

in this relationship.

5

decisions.

6

what checks to write.

7

funds, she immediately turned around and provided

8

the funds, almost all the funds, to Dr. Dingle;

9

except for the funds that Dr. Dingle directed

10
11

That Dr. Dingle made all the

He told her what to do.

He told her

When she received the grant

Ms. Johnson to write to Roxanne Jackson.
So again, what's the relevance of Claudia

12

Johnson's testimony?

13

unfaithful to Mrs. Dingle, but that he was in a

14

relationship with someone who was getting state

15

money and he was exploiting that relationship during

16

the time of that relationship to cause that person,

17

Ms. Johnson, to give him more than a million

18

dollars.

19

more than $200,000 of state money to Roxanne

20

Jackson, half of which went back to Ms. Golden.

21

Not that Dr. Dingle was

And that he directed Ms. Johnson to pay

Again, relationships between Dr. Dingle and

22

people who received -- who were in charge of state

23

money or who received state money.

24
25

Lastly, Your Honor, there is a -- I don't know
whether we'll call this witness.

She's the least

KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
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34

1

important of the witnesses who will testify to this

2

personal relationship, is a woman by the name of

3

Shavonda Fields.

4

She was hired by Dr. Dingle during the time of

5

these grants to work on the grant work; whether it

6

would have been the Faith Based Initiative or the

7

BASUAH initiative involving HIV and AIDS.

8

there's other programs involving breast and cervical

9

and prostate cancer.

And then

Dr. Dingle was in a

10

relationship with Ms. Fields during the time that he

11

was paying her with state money.

12

Again, all that evidence is merely to show that

13

Dr. Dingle was in a unique, non-merit-based

14

relationship with people who were in control of

15

state money that was eventually awarded to him.

16

That is, in our view, Your Honor, not only

17

relevant evidence, but it's critical evidence to the

18

Government's case.

19

evidence of fraud and corruption by Dr. Dingle and

20

exclude any evidence relating to the relationships

21

with the people from whom he got that state money?

22

It's difficult to conceive of how we would even

23

present our case were we excluded from doing that.

24
25

Because how do we present

So for those reasons, Your Honor, it's relevant
evidence.

It is not 404(b) evidence.

In the

KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
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35

1

defendant's first motion in limine, they -- he only

2

argues that the evidence is not relevant.

3

response we laid out, as I just summarized, why it

4

is relevant, direct -- directly relevant.

5

seeking to introduce 404(b) evidence.

6

In our

We're not

The Government is completely aware of the state

7

of the law in the 7th Circuit regarding 404(b).

8

Like you, Your Honor, I don't want to try this case

9

again.

10
11

I've got another case that we're doing that.

I don't want a second one.
So we are not asking you to admit this evidence

12

based on Rule 404(b), we're only asking you to admit

13

it under Rule 401.

14

would be if it's substantially outweighed by the

15

danger of unfair prejudice.

16

the reasons I've just explained, that evidence, that

17

relevant evidence, is not substantially outweighed

18

by the danger of unfair prejudice.

19

And the basis for excluding that

And I would submit, for

Again, if there's any risk of that, Your Honor

20

can instruct the jury in some way that this evidence

21

is not coming in to show that Dr. Dingle is a bad

22

person or he's an unfaithful husband, it's admitted

23

for the purpose of what I just said.

24

defer to defense on whether they would request a

25

limiting instruction if Your Honor were to allow

And I would

KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
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36

1
2

that evidence.
But for those reasons, we'd ask that the motion

3

in limine with respect to Governor Blagojevich and

4

the relationships that I just described be denied.

5

I'm happy to address the other issue that

6

Ms. Dalton raised regarding Dr. Whitaker, but I

7

think that's really a separate issue that we can

8

address separately rather than with the motion in

9

limine.

10
11
12
13
14
15

THE COURT:

I tend to agree with that --

with that statement.
All right.

Ms. Dalton, I'll give you one final

bite at the apple here.
MS. DALTON:

Thank you, Judge.

Mr. Bass repeated over and over again that the

16

relevance of introducing this evidence of sexual

17

relationships and dating relationships were to show

18

the unique and non-arm's based relationship between

19

Dr. Dingle and Quinn Golden, Gwen Woolridge, Claudia

20

Johnson, and Shavonda Fields.

21

It is absolutely unnecessary for the Government

22

to introduce evidence of physical, sexual relations

23

or dating relations in order to show the

24

relationships period that Dr. Dingle had with all

25

four of those women.
KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
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37

1

Starting with Quinn Golden.

There's no

2

question that Dr. Dingle had to have a close

3

relationship with Quinn Golden.

4

of basically running the Faith Based Initiative

5

after it had been implemented by Governor

6

Blagojevich.

7

She was in charge

And so the grantees who received the grants for

8

that initiative had to work closely with the

9

Illinois Department of Public Health, the Chief of

10

Staff, and other staff members of the Department to

11

decide what was gonna be done with the grant, decide

12

what the deliverables are, to decide who was gonna

13

work on it, to decide which person was gonna do

14

what.

15

The fact that he had to speak with her on

16

numerous occasions, had meetings with her every

17

week, the Government can introduce that all they

18

want, there's no objection to that.

19

idea that the sexual issue that was allegedly seen

20

by MA on one occasion in 2007 is necessary and

21

relevant to establish this unique, non-arm's based

22

relationship that Dr. Dingle had with Quinn Golden

23

is ridiculous really.

24
25

The -- this

There are plenty of other ways to show the
relationship that the -- legitimate relationship
KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
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38

1

that Dr. Dingle had with Quinn Golden other than to

2

introduce this very prejudicial statement from MA;

3

that she ironically didn't tell the Government about

4

for seven years.

5

she had with agents, it never came up.

6

before we're set to go to trial, on September 8th, a

7

week before, does she all of the sudden decide, oh,

8

yes, I remember now, I saw this thing happen in the

9

office on one occasion, I had been summoned to the

Five, six different conversations
Only right

10

office by Quinn Golden already.

11

Golden wanted her to come there for something.

12

Whether it was to tell her that she was gonna get a

13

bonus for all the hard work she was gonna do, or

14

something else, had nothing to do with what Marian

15

Adly, MA, may or may not have seen in that office.

16

So obviously Quinn

And any testimony to that effect is not

17

necessary to show a unique, non-arm's based

18

relationship between Dr. Dingle and Quinn Golden.

19

There are plenty more legitimate and relevant means

20

to do that that the defense would have no objection

21

to.

22

Going on to --

23

The Government alluded to this issue between

24

Quinn Golden and Roxanne Jackson.

25

Golden had Dr. Dingle hire Roxanne Jackson in order

And that Quinn

KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
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39

1

for her to work on grants; which she did; and that

2

whatever grant money was paid to Roxanne Jackson,

3

half of which went back to Quinn Golden.

4

knows that.

5

filings.

6

Jackson to that effect.

7

Everybody

It's been alleged in numerous different

There's been guilty pleas by Roxanne

However, it is important to note that Roxanne

8

Jackson and Quinn Golden have stated in their

9

statements to agents that Dr. Dingle knew nothing of

10
11

that agreement that they had together.
Going to Claudia Johnson; this romantic dating

12

relationship that the Government wants to introduce

13

to show that Dr. Dingle exploited her relationship

14

with her so that she would give him grant money.

15

Dr. Dingle and Claudia Johnson started working

16

together in 2004.

17

was a romantic and dating relationship that was

18

going on well up into when she started getting

19

grants through her organization, AWARE, which

20

started in 2007.

21

She -- she has claimed that there

There was no exploitation of any sort of

22

relationship.

23

statements to the effect that she decided, it was

24

her decision to start this organization AWARE,

25

because she wanted to start doing grants as well.

Claudia Johnson has given many

KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
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40

1

And it was her statements to agents that she

2

realized after starting AWARE and starting to get

3

grants, that she did not have the resources or the

4

capability to follow through with all the

5

deliverables that were necessary to complete the

6

grant as it was written.

7

bringing in Dr. Dingle, who she had already worked

8

with on many other grants, to help her with it.

9

he got paid for it.

10
11

Therefore, she instituted

And

And there was nothing illegal

about that.
Any sort of information about a dating

12

relationship between the two is irrelevant and

13

unnecessary.

14

how they introduced -- how they were introduced to

15

each other, how long they knew each other, how many

16

grants they worked on together, how much work they

17

did for the grants, without getting into any sort of

18

information about whether or not there was a dating

19

or sexual relationship between the two of them.

20

confuses the issues, it's extremely prejudicial, and

21

it's unnecessary to establish the background between

22

the two of them.

23

There are plenty of means to establish

Same thing with Shavonda Fields.

It

The fact that

24

she was hired to work on grant work; the

25

Government's not claiming that Shavonda Fields
KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
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1

didn't do grant work.

2

extremely large amount of grant work for Dr. Dingle

3

and organizations that Dr. Dingle was working with.

4

And she was paid for the work that she did.

5

paid a reasonable amount.

6

She did, in fact, do an

She was

The fact that there may or may not have been a

7

dating relationship between her and Dr. Dingle;

8

again, completely irrelevant.

9

doing work and was getting paid for it and was

The fact that she was

10

working with Dr. Dingle, all of that is relevant.

11

All of that, of course, will be introduced at trial,

12

I'm sure, by the Government.

13

there may or may not have been a dating relationship

14

is unnecessary for her, just as it is for Claudia

15

Johnson, just as it is for Gwen Woolridge, just as

16

it is for Quinn Golden, to establish the background

17

of how Dr. Dingle knew, how long he knew, and how

18

often he worked with these women, and what he did as

19

he was working with them on these grants.

20
21
22

But the fact that

I'm not sure if I got to Gwen Woolridge.

I

didn't.
As far as Gwen Woolridge is concerned, the

23

Government has correctly stated that she was an

24

employee of the Department of Public Health and that

25

they want to get into the fact that she went to
KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
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42

1

dinners with Dr. Dingle and went to Yacht Club, to

2

his yacht club for lunches with Dr. Dingle.

3

that that implies a dating, inappropriate

4

relationship between Dr. Dingle and Gwen Woolridge

5

is just not merit-based whatsoever.

6

And

Dr. Dingle -- many witnesses will testify on

7

the Government's behalf; we've seen the statements;

8

that Dr. Dingle had many of his meetings as far as

9

discussing grants and keeping up-to-date with other

10

organizations, keeping up-to-date with other

11

consultants on what was going on, at his yacht club.

12

It had nothing to do with any sort of dating

13

relationship.

14

tarnish Dr. Dingle's character is unnecessary and

15

irrelevant.

16

Implying that it did in order to

We'd ask that all testimony regarding any sort

17

of sexual, physical, dating relationship between

18

Dr. Dingle and these four women be excluded from

19

evidence and that the Government be precluded to

20

only focus on the relevant background of the

21

relationships; non-sexual, non-physical, non-dating;

22

between Dr. Dingle and any witness.

23
24
25

Thank you, Your Honor.
THE COURT:
All right.

Thank you, Ms. Dalton.

Thank you both.

And we have all of

KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
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43

1

this on the record and Madam Reporter has taken done

2

all of your oral argument here.

3

supplement your motions and your responses.

4

That will

Now, most recently on September the 20th,

5

Dr. Dingle filed a motion to modify conditions of

6

release seeking to sell some assets.

7

And the doctor is required to obtain

8

permission, of course, of the Court before selling

9

assets of greater value than $500.

And he seeks

10

leave of Court to sell about 2,000 shares of stock

11

in ComCast, in addition to seeking to sell property

12

that he owns in Savannah, Georgia.

13

The motion provides that he seeks permission so

14

that he may pay legal fees and other expenses

15

associated with trial.

16

has been filed by the Government.

17

Is that right, Mr. Bass?

18

MR. BASS:

I don't believe any response

No, Your Honor.

I spoke with

19

Mr. Genson about this before the hearing today and

20

indicated to him I was gonna advise the Court orally

21

what our position is.

22

with regard to the disposition of that motion, if I

23

could be heard at some point.

24
25

THE COURT:

I think we're in agreement

Why sure.

Come right ahead.

really want to clean everything up here today with
KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
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I

44

1

the exception of my written rulings on the motions

2

that are pending.

3

a very short period of time.

4

up everything here today so that we don't have to be

5

scheduling another session prior to our trial.

6

That's my intent.

And I will have those out within

7

MR. BASS:

8

THE COURT:

9

MR. GENSON:

But I wanted to clean

Fine, Your Honor.
Mr. Genson was going to -We seem to have an agreement,

10

Your Honor.

11

stock, but we are withdrawing our request with

12

regard to the house.

13

agreement we've reached.

The agreement is that we can sell the

14

THE COURT:

15

MR. BASS:

And that's essentially the

Oh.
Yes, Your Honor.

That -- the

16

Government has no objection to selling only those

17

assets necessary to pay legal fees.

18

should be no dissipation of assets beyond what is

19

necessary to pay the legal fees.

20

THE COURT:

All right.

That there

And I take it

21

Mr. Genson is saying that the sale of the stock will

22

be adequate to do that without the necessity of

23

selling the Savannah, Georgia property?

24
25

MR. GENSON:

Yes, Your Honor.

At this

point -- at this point in time Mr. Clark is owed
KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
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1

money, we are owed money.

2

substantial expenses regarding an expert witness

3

that we've retained, in addition to hotels, lodging,

4

and whatever.

5

There's going to be

So we're asking relative to those amounts to

6

sell the stock now.

7

needs to be sold, we'll address it separately, Your

8

Honor.

9
10

THE COURT:

If we need -- if the house

Okay.

That will be fine.

Now, is that agreeable to the Government?

11

MR. BASS:

12

THE COURT:

And Mr. Clark, any problem with

14

MR. CLARK:

No, I don't, Your Honor.

15

THE COURT:

All right.

13

Yes, Your Honor.

that?

Well then, it seems

16

to me that that's a reasonable request.

17

Court does grant permission to sell the ComCast

18

stock.

19

the real estate in Savannah has been withdrawn; is

20

that right?

21
22
23
24
25

And the

However, that sought for the permission of

MR. GENSON:

Yes, Your Honor, we withdrawn

that request.
THE COURT:

Is that your desire,

Dr. Dingle?
Is that your desire, Dr. Dingle?
KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
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1
2

DR. DINGLE:

Yes.

I'm sorry.

Yes, Your

Honor, it is.

3

THE COURT:

Okay.

That's fine.

If the

4

Government sees no problem, I don't either.

5

seems to me that's pretty good.

6

So it

Now, since the trial will be down here in

7

Springfield and not in Chicago, it seems like all of

8

those other experiences probably would be less down

9

here than they would be up there.

10
11

MR. GENSON:

I was asking Mr. Bass if he

would allow us to stay at his house, but he --

12

THE COURT:

Well, I know Mr. Bass is very

13

hospitable, but I don't know if we'd go to that

14

extent.

15

I have a couple of spare rooms in my house,

16

Mr. Genson, but I don't know that that would be

17

looked upon --

18

Well, in any event, okay.

19

Now, let's see, I believe that all of the

20

motions -- when we met last month all the motions on

21

behalf of Mrs. Dingle I think were resolved and that

22

there were none pending at this time.

23

MR. CLARK:

No.

24

THE COURT:

Is that correct?

25

MR CLARK:

That's correct, Your Honor.

KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
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1

THE COURT:

2

MR. BASS:

3

THE COURT:

4

MR. BASS:

Fine.

Thank you, Mr. Clark.

Your Honor?
Yes.
I don't know whether you intend

5

to allow the motion just by way of a docket entry,

6

but if your docket entry could just reflect that the

7

motion, Mr. Genson's motion for amendment of bond

8

conditions is allowed with the sale of stock for the

9

payment of attorneys' fees.

Just so it's clear that

10

the motion -- we are -- the Government is

11

agreeing -- has no objection to the motion to the

12

extent necessary for the payment of legal fees.

13

THE COURT:

Very well.

14

MR. CLARK:

Your Honor, of both Mr. and

15

Mrs. Dingle.

16

MR. BASS:

17

THE COURT:

18

MR. BASS:

19

THE COURT:

20
21

Very well.

Yes.
What?
For both counsel.
Yes, of course.

I'll make sure that is in the

written order as well.

22

MR. BASS:

23

THE COURT:

Yes, Your Honor.
Okay.

Thank you.

Government's agreement

24

to that and for legal fees for both Dr. and

25

Mrs. Dingle.
KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
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1

MR GENSON:

I hate to -- I know we've -- I

2

think legal fees and costs, because of the costs

3

that are going to be incurred, not just --

4

THE COURT:

Well, let's use the term legal

5

costs, I think, which is broader and more inclusive

6

and I think would be less limiting.

7

MR. BASS:

8

THE COURT:

9

Very good.

Everybody in

agreement then on that terminology?

10

MR. BASS:

11

THE COURT:

12

Fine, Your Honor.

All right.

Yes.
Swell.

Very good.

Well, I should expect to have a

13

ruling on all of the outstanding motions by the end

14

of next week.

15

Now let's see, it appears that some of the

16

pre-trial materials have been filed.

17

Dr. Dingle has filed a witness list, proposed voir

18

dire, and proposed jury instructions.

19

its format, Dr. Dingle's exhibit list was stricken

20

on August the 22nd and he was granted leave to

21

re-file.

22

has been filed.

23

Mr. --

And due to

I don't believe the amended exhibit list

MS. DALTON:

No, Your Honor, it hasn't.

We

24

would ask to the end of business day Friday in order

25

to file.
KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
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1
2

THE COURT:

You've got to get close to the

mike there.

3

MS. DALTON:

4

THE COURT:

5

MS. DALTON:

There we go.
That's wonderful.

Thank you.

If we could have to the end of

6

the business day on Friday to file that exhibit

7

list.

8

the Government and we just want the opportunity to

9

go through it and make sure there's not any

We recently received some new discovery from

10

additional items that we want to include on our

11

exhibit list before we file it.

12
13

THE COURT:
Court.

Unless the Government has any --

14

MR. BASS:

15

THE COURT:

16

All right, that's fine with the

No objection.
Very good.

allowed and that is Friday, did you say?

17

MS. DALTON:

18

THE COURT:

Yes, Your Honor.
Close of business Friday.

19

Fine, excellent.

20

amended list, exhibit list.

21
22

Then that leave is

We'll take care of that with your

Now, I don't think that any pre-trial -- yes,
Mr. Genson?

23

MR. GENSON:

24

request.

25

morning of the 20th.

There is one additional

We're going to be picking the jury on the
None of the -- none of the

KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
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1

three lawyers here have tried cases -- well, I've

2

tried cases, many in Springfield, but not for quite

3

a long time.

4

And we've talked, and I've told Mr. Bass this,

5

Mr. Wykoff is present in court, and he has very

6

kindly volunteered.

7

jury selection, we would appreciate it.

8

make that motion.

9
10

THE COURT:

If he could sit with us during
I'd like to

Any problem with that,

Mr. Bass?

11

MR. BASS:

12

THE COURT:

No, Your Honor.
I don't see any either.

I'm

13

well-acquainted with Mr. Wykoff.

14

presence in the back of the courtroom today.

15

will be delighted to have him at defense table for

16

the selection of the jury for the voir dire.

17

MR. GENSON:

18

THE COURT:

I note his
And we

Thank you.
All right.

Now, let me think.

19

I don't think any pre-trial materials have been

20

filed on behalf of Mrs. Dingle.

21
22

Is that correct, Mr. Clark?
MR. CLARK:

I do, Your Honor.

I don't

23

anticipate a witness list, but I would ask Your

24

Honor for about four or five days for any voir dire

25

that I may have in addition to what Mr. Dingle has
KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
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1

filed.

2

five --

And any instruction.

3
4

COURT REPORTER:

Please move to a

microphone.

5

THE COURT:

See, the microphone, these are

6

voice activated.

7

hear once we get to a mike.

8
9

I'd ask for about

And everybody in the courtroom can

MR. CLARK:

Your Honor, I don't anticipate

a witness list, but I would ask Your Honor if I

10

could have five days or at least to next Monday or

11

Tuesday to file any voir dire that I might have in

12

addition to what Mr. Genson has had.

13

one instruction, if I might.

14

THE COURT:

15

Any problem with that,

Mr. Bass?

16

MR. BASS:

17

THE COURT:

18

And perhaps

No, Your Honor.
All right.

Well, Mr. Clark,

that leave is granted.

19

MR. CLARK:

Thank you.

20

THE COURT:

Why don't you -- I'm sure you

21

do constantly here, as a practical matter, confer --

22

the two of you confer, along with Ms. Dalton.

23

Ms. Dalton is going to see to it that we have that

24

list by the close of business or Friday.

25

you confer with her and as much as possible what you
KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
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Why don't

52

1

might wish to select could come in close to the same

2

time or the first of next week.

3

MR. CLARK:

I can.

4

THE COURT:

That would be fine.

5

MR. CLARK:

And --

6

THE COURT:

So we don't piecemeal this out

I can do that.

7

so that we get strung out.

8

that when we do that when we have multiple

9

defendants, we end up losing something.

And I've always found

Something

10

falls in between the crack if we don't keep on the

11

same time schedule.

12

MR. CLARK:

13

That's my problem.
Okay, I'll do that.

And you're

right, we do confer quite frequently.

14

THE COURT:

Okay.

15

MR. CLARK:

So we have a good relationship.

16

And we'll do fine.

17

THE COURT:

All right.

18

good relationship here.

19

together for several days.

We'll all have a

As we're going to live

20

MR. CLARK:

Several weeks.

21

THE COURT:

Several weeks I'm afraid.

But

22

that's the nature of the game that we play, is it

23

not?

24
25

MR. CLARK:

And we've all chosen that

route, so we like it.
KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
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1

THE COURT:

Well, absolutely.

2

MR. CLARK:

Thank you, Your Honor.

3

THE COURT:

Any other line of work is

4

pretty dull in our estimation, isn't it?

5
6

MR. CLARK:

of work that I would rather do.

7
8
9

I can't think of any other line

THE COURT:

I agree with you.

Aces, spades

and trumps.
Okay.

Now, the docket shows that the

10

Government has filed its exhibit list, proposed jury

11

instructions, statement of the case, and witness

12

list.

13

Right, Mr. Bass?
MR. BASS:

Yes, Your Honor.

And we filed

14

an amended witness list and amended exhibit list

15

today before the hearing.

16

case, jury instructions, and witness and exhibit

17

lists are of record.

18
19

THE COURT:

So the statement of the

Okay, fine.

All right, very good.

Well, I think that

20

bringing us up to snuff.

21

on the motions and those rulings will be out to you

22

just as soon as we get them taken care of.

23

And then I will be ruling

And we're all looking toward the 20th, 9:00 in

24

the morning, in this very courtroom.

25

a venire all ready to go in the jury room back here.

And we'll have

KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
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1
2
3
4
5
6

Now, have we missed anything or is there
anything we need to bring up?
Mr. Bass, you look moved to take the podium.
MR. BASS:

Your Honor, just to follow-up on

Ms. -- the issue Ms. Dalton raised.
The Government has two witnesses on its witness

7

list, one of whom is Dr. Whitaker and the other is

8

Dr. Damon Arnold.

9

Department of Public Health during the time period

10
11

They were both directors of the

in the indictment.
We've advised the defense; and Ms. Dalton

12

alluded to this; that the Government has entered

13

into proffer or cooperation agreements with both

14

Dr. Arnold and Dr. Whitaker in which they have

15

agreed to provide complete and truthful information

16

to the Government.

17

We did that some time ago.

Dr. Whitaker, following that execution of that

18

agreement, met with the Government and then refused

19

to answer certain questions about his relationship

20

with Ms. Golden.

21

that he was fully cooperating with the Government.

22

He then represented to the media

And he has, through his counsel in the last few

23

months -- through his counsel in the last few months

24

has refused to meet with the Government pursuant to

25

that agreement.

And just recently, through his

KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
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1

counsel, advised the Government that he expressly

2

was refusing to meet with the Government.

3

And I -- and we just learned today; I wasn't

4

aware of this before Your Honor took the bench; but

5

apparently Mr. -- Dr. Whitaker's counsel has

6

provided an affidavit to counsel for Dr. Dingle, but

7

not the Government.

8
9

So I raise all that just because I know Your
Honor does not like to be taken by surprise.

10

THE COURT:

11

MR. BASS:

Hm-mm.
And similarly with respect to

12

Dr. Arnold, we entered into an agreement with

13

Dr. Arnold in which he agreed to provide complete

14

and truthful information to the Government.

15

have attempted over the last several weeks on

16

numerous occasions to meet with Dr. Arnold pursuant

17

to that agreement and to date he has refused.

18

And we

So I advised Ms. Dalton and Mr. Genson and

19

Mr. Clark that the Government may be filing a motion

20

with the Court seeking to treat them as hostile

21

witnesses under Rule 611 of the Rules of Evidence.

22

Now, we're not asking for a ruling about that

23

today.

24

And we'll file that -- if we do file it, we will --

25

if we do decide to do that, we will file it and then

It's just something that we may likely do.

KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
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1

prior to their testimony or at the time of their

2

testimony seek to take that issue up with the Court.

3

So just so Your Honor is aware, since

4

Ms. Dalton alluded to it, that there is that one

5

potential pre-trial motion regarding two witnesses

6

that we may be filing prior to the testimony of

7

those witnesses.

8

would have to take up outside the presence of the

9

jury.

10

So it may be something that we

THE COURT:

Well, thank you, Mr. Bass, for

11

the heads-up.

12

no Judge who likes surprises.

13

arise, as you well know.

14

You're absolutely correct.

I know of

All kinds of problems

We have had them before.

But what I would like to caution everyone here

15

is that I don't want any problems that arise with

16

either of these two directors or former directors of

17

Public Health to cause me any problem with that jury

18

in the box.

19

Now, we're going to take care of this matter;

20

these matters, if it means both of them; we're gonna

21

take care of that separately.

22

to be doing it to cause any problem with this jury.

23

But we're not going

So let's try to get this all looked into and

24

give me a heads-up on all of this.

25

the heads-up, of course.

Everybody gets

But it's been my

KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
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57

1

experience that usually counsel know about these

2

things before I do.

3

MR. BASS:

We'll do that, Your Honor.

My

4

thought was that if -- we would file that motion

5

before the trial begins.

6

take that issue up with Your Honor, we could do it

7

at the end of the day after the jury is excused, or

8

even if Your Honor wanted to, we could excuse the

9

jury early one day, one afternoon.

10
11
12

THE COURT:

And then if we needed to

Sure, we'll take care of that.

We'll take care of that.
Very good.

And thank you for the heads-up.

13

And thank you, counsel, for keeping in mind that I

14

don't want any problem with the jury.

15

got to do everything possible to take care of that.

16

Nobody wants to try this case twice.

17
18

MR. BASS:

Now, we've

I know that.

Your Honor, two other

housekeeping matters.

19

THE COURT:

20

MR. BASS:

Sure.
I haven't spoken with Mr. --

21

with counsel about this, but trying cases before

22

Your Honor in this courtroom before, Your Honor is

23

well aware of the -- of some of the practical

24

difficulties.

25

For example, I don't like standing between the
KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
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58

1

jury and the witness.

2

Honor has allowed the Government -- or allowed

3

counsel to use one of the lapel microphones and to

4

stand back to counsel table.

5

THE COURT:

6

MR. BASS:

7
8
9

And so in the past, Your

Sure.
I just wanted to raise that

issue with Your Honor -THE COURT:

This is the way we've done it

and we've had to do it because of the configuration

10

of the high tech stuff that's in here.

11

weren't for that, we would have no difficulty.

12

these are not the way I started -- that Mr. Genson

13

and I started to practice and try cases together.

14

We didn't have all this.

15

But we have now.

If it
But

And it speeds things up and

16

it assists the jury immeasurably to have all of this

17

on the screen in front of them.

18

you have in front of you on the monitors and I have

19

up here and the witness has on the witness stand.

20

And so we have to because of the configuration.

The same thing that

21

Now, we even have -- this witness box is on

22

casters and we can actually pull it out further when

23

we need to do so.

24

and it can be turned and will be turned to the jury

25

for addressing the jury both in openings and

And the podium here is on casters

KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
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1

closings.

But we have to fiddle with things around

2

a little.

Madam Clerk knows everything about all

3

this stuff.

4

And she will get all that set up.

Yes, Mr. Genson?

5

MR. GENSON:

I have difficulty in standing.

6

And the Clerk was very nicely furnished me with a

7

chair that I can place behind the podium.

8

THE COURT:

9

MR. GENSON:

Surely.
Perhaps if I do have a lapel

10

mike I could do some of my examination from here?

11

Because standing is not --

12

THE COURT:

We'll work -- we'll definitely

13

work with you on that so we don't have any -- any

14

more inconvenience than is absolutely necessary or

15

disruption of the flow of the trial.

16

both of those things in mind and in balance.

17

I have to keep

Now, we have these microphones and they're on

18

the tables.

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use the microphones, because they -- they're sound

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activated, they pick up everything.

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important too for Madam Reporter and Madam Clerk.

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Everything we need to have right into the mikes.

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Okay?

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25

And when you're at the table, please

MR. BASS:

And this is

The second administrative

matter, housekeeping matter which Your Honor alluded
KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
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to.
Judge, much of the evidence in this case is
document based.

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THE COURT:

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MR. BASS:

Yes.
And as Your Honor knows, unlike

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your former courtroom, which has the big screen, we

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don't have one of those here.

8

advise Your Honor that I anticipate that our -- the

9

assistant for Mr. Long and myself will be

And I just wanted to

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communicating with Madam Clerk and the court staff

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about bringing in a large screen and the placement

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of where we would place that; what's best in the

13

courtroom, what's best viewable for the jury.

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But we'll obviously confer with Madam Clerk and

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court staff as to how we could do that.

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wanted to let Your Honor know that I -- we don't

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think that it will be best to present all of this

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document evidence based solely on the TV.

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may need a larger screen to do that.

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THE COURT:

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MR. BASS:

But I just

That we

All right.
And all of the evidence that we

22

will present, or most of it, will be through the

23

computer, which we, of course, will make available,

24

our assistant, to defense counsel for their use of

25

any exhibits as well.
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THE COURT:
All right.

Very good.

Well, you -- first of all, you're

3

gonna have to figure out what piece of equipment you

4

intend to bring in.

5

is only a what, a three-by-four, whatever it is, for

6

the jury.

7

Because the monitor down here

Now, it seems to normally be adequate for the

8

jury, the place where it is right now at the end of

9

the jury box and it's just a turned a little bit.

10

And everybody seems to be able to see it; all of the

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regular members of the jury plus the two alternates

12

up here.

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14
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They seem to be able to -- in our trials.

And then of course we all have the monitors in
front of us.
Now, if you have a bigger piece of equipment, I

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don't know where you're going to put it other than

17

at the same place down here at the end.

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Now, the only disadvantage to our system here

19

is that we don't have a viewer for visitors who are

20

in the spectator section of the courtroom.

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that's the only thing that we don't have.

22

Now,

Now, if you can rig up your monitor down at the

23

end of the jury box just like this one is here, we

24

could move that one over to this far corner facing

25

the spectator section.
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Would that be feasible, Madam Clerk?

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3

THE CLERK:

Your Honor, I will check with

our IT staff.

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THE COURT:

Good.

That's the safe answer.

5

And a great one.

6

we can rig this up so that it's going to fly.

7

Get Dustin down here and I bet you

MR. BASS:

However, Your Honor, our

8

thought -- the piece of equipment we're talking

9

about is just a screen, a portable screen, larger

10

screen.

It's --

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THE COURT:

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MR. BASS:

How big?
Five-by-five, six foot by six

13

foot, something like that.

14

that you pull up.

15

THE COURT:

16

MR. BASS:

17

THE COURT:

18

Oh, it's on a tripod?
On a tripod, yes.
Okay.

Then where's the

projector go?

19
20

Like a portable screen

MR. BASS:

The projector is -- the Court

has -- it would be the Court system once we plug in.

21

THE COURT:

22

MR. BASS:

That we have -The computer will plug in.

23

we project that, we'll have to talk with staff

24

about.

25

THE COURT:

All right.

How

I'll let you work

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that out, but I think we can work it out.
MR. BASS:

Your Honor, the last thing I

3

wanted to mention is I know that both the Government

4

and the defense have filed witness lists.

5

THE COURT:

6

MR. BASS:

Yes.
And Your Honor -- rather than

7

Your Honor reading those names to the jurors, it

8

might be more efficient to -- for the parties to

9

submit just one list of witnesses with no -- no

10

format, just a listing of all potential witnesses so

11

that the Court could hand those out during venire,

12

if that's acceptable.

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14
15
16
17
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THE COURT:

You're suggesting printed, in

hard copy form?
MR. BASS:

Yes.

We'll provide 40 or 50,

whatever the number of venire would be.
THE COURT:

Any problem with that, counsel

for the defense?

19

MR. GENSON:

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MR. CLARK:

No, Your Honor.

21

THE COURT:

Very good.

22

very good.

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alphabetically?

I have no problem, Your Honor.

Then that sounds

Are you going to list them

24

MR. BASS:

25

THE COURT:

We can, Your Honor.
I don't know that I want to

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call attention to witnesses for the Government

2

versus witnesses for the defense.

3

MR. BASS:

No, this would just be a

4

scrambled list of witnesses.

5

THE COURT:

6

MR. BASS:

8

THE COURT:

10

As

long as it is not --

7

9

All right, that's fine.

With no labels.
Good, good.

We'll have no

trouble, that will be fine.
And I would suggest that we have those passed

11

out en masse, so that everybody has got them in

12

advance of calling -- being called to the box.

13

MR. BASS:

14

THE COURT:

15

MR. BASS:

16
17
18

Yes, Your Honor.
Okay.
We'll do that and submit that to

the Clerk before the 20th.
THE COURT:

That will be swell.

Any problem with that, counsel?

19

MR. GENSON:

20

MR. CLARK:

No.

21

THE COURT:

What else do we have for the

22

good of the order basis?

23

MR. BASS:

24

MR. GENSON:

25

No problem, Your Honor.

That's all we have.
Nothing on behalf of

Mr. Dingle, Your Honor.
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MR. CLARK:

Mrs. Dingle, Your Honor.

3
4
5

Nothing on behalf of

THE COURT:
counsel.

Fine.

Thank you very much,

All right.

Well, I will have the rulings on the pending

6

motions then very shortly.

7

to take right off on the 20th.

8

MR. GENSON:

9

THE COURT:

Then we ought to be able
Okay.

Yes, Your Honor.
All right.

Now, if you run

10

into any problems, any difficulties, any

11

insurmountable problems that affect the timing of

12

the trial and the progress of the trial, please let

13

me know in advance.

14

We're a telephone call away.

So if anything comes up that's gonna cause us a

15

glitch, because we've got a lot of people involved

16

here, got a lot of witnesses, we've got a lot of

17

jurors, we've got a lot of folk.

18

any last-minute surprises.

19

So I don't want

And if anything reeks to me that it's a

20

surprise that could be avoided, will not go good.

21

So let's don't fiddle around.

22

want to go through, we want to get the case taken

23

care.

24
25

We are on track, we

Okay?

Good.

Any final questions, problems?

MR. BASS:

No.

Thank you, Your Honor.

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THE COURT:

2

very, very much.

3

you much.

Okay.

Counsel, thank you,

And you'll hear from us.

4

We'll stand in recess.

5

(Court was recess in this case.)

Thank

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I, KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR, Official Court

7

Reporter, certify that the foregoing is a correct

8

transcript from the record of proceedings in the

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above-entitled matter.

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This transcripts contains the

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digital signature of:

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Kathy J. Sullivan, CSR, RPR, CRR

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License #084-002768

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KATHY J. SULLIVAN, CSR, RPR, CRR
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER