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State of Missouri v.

Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume VI


September 23, 2014
Page 46

Yeah.

DETECTIVE

Okay.

Tell me what

happens then?
Urn, when I steps outside, urn,

the guy, obviously, urn, he's been hit,

curls up and I, but now he -- he's facing the

Ferguson, the Ferguson officer and, urn -DETECTIVE

him curling up,

12

Urn, he's uh, he's,


said,

DETECTIVE

He's bent over?


Yeah,

17

kind of like --

DETECTIVE

At the waist?

15
16

like I

like he's been hit in the stomach.

13
14

So when you describe

show me?

10
11

cause he

yeah,

like he's about to

fall and fall directly


DETECTIVE

Okay.
on the ground.

18

And, urn,

19

but I see him takes like one or two steps,

20

like I said, towards him,

21

DETECTIVE

22
23
24
25

kind of

you know -Now --

-- now I don't know if that


was a help sign,

just a little bit.

DETECTIVE

Okay.
Just a little bit.

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September 23, 2014
Page 47

DETECTIVE

Well, tell me this.


Uh-huh.

DETECTIVE

describing his hands being up.

Everybody's

You know what, that now,

that's like because when, when, okay.

balcony is, it's another building right there.

he, where his blood spill at, where he got shot at,

he ran past that.

10

DETECTIVE

From where my
Urn,

Uh-huh.
Before he, you know got that

11

12

14

How'd he end up

DETECTIVE

13

coming back?

15

Yeah, that's why the, that's,

16

I was just, uh, what I'm, what I'm saying, like I

17

said, he must have got hit and he, he probably had

18

his hands up when he got hit.

19

DETECTIVE

20

that area

21
22

Oh, so you're saying

That's why everybody -DETECTIVE

-- that area's out

23
24
25

keep saying that.


DETECTIVE

-- of view?

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Grand Jury Volume VI


September 23, 2014
Page 48

Yeah, uh, quite uh, out of

view, but he ran past the, uh, where he got shot at.
DETECTIVE

Oh, so you're saying

that area

That's why everybody --- that area's out

DETECTIVE

6
7

keep saying that.

DETECTIVE

10

Yeah, he -- he, yeah.

Where

he died at, he ran past that spot.

13
14

So the, the

part of the area where he got shot with those four?

11

12

Okay.

DETECTIVE

And came back to

that spot?

15

So obviously,

I think when he

16

got hit, that's when he probably raised his hands

17

up, but he's then curled up --

18

DETECTIVE

Yeah.

19

-- just walking, took a couple

20

steps back towards him, he probably had one hand up,

21

but he had his hands down here and the officer let

22

out about four more shots and he hit the ground just

23

like how he's laying.

24
25

DETECTIVE

So you see him bent

over.

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Page 49

Yeah,

DETECTIVE

just like that.


What I'm saying

though is after he's bent over there is another four

shots.

Yeah,

yeah, another four or

three shots just like that.

And everybody saying

like he was already down and the officer let out a

shot.

know, before he hit the ground, he let out four more

10
11

shots.

I don't know, but I know what I saw,

I don't know, but I know what I saw.


DETECTIVE

14

before he hit the ground,


he let off four more shots.
DETECTIVE

15
16

So--

Okay.

12
13

you

Okay.
So I can't remember
And where he

DETECTIVE

17

if he said freeze or, or,

18

or said something before he let out the last ones,

19

but I know when he --

20
21

DETECTIVE

say anything before those last four

22
23

No,
DETECTIVE

24
25

Did you hear Michael

I didn't, huh-uh.
Okay.

No.
DETECTIVE

So, where he, where

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September 23, 2014
Page 50

1
2

he was at in the street, is that where he fell?


the, like, nobody moved him?

3
4

No, ain't nobody moved him or


nothing.
DETECTIVE

Okay.
Nothing so, uh --

DETECTIVE

Nobody touched his

body?
Nobody touched him, uh, after,

10

right after that, the officer just stood over it,

11

like 5 feet away from him with his gun on his

12

walkie-talkie thing.
DETECTIVE

13

14
15

The

Okay.
And called the first two or

whatever.

16

DETECTIVE

17

Okay.
And that was it.

DETECTIVE

18

All right.

Is there

19

anything that I haven't asked you or that you feel

20

you need to clarify?

21
22
23

Uh, no, that's everything


really.

Everything that I saw.


DETECTIVE

24
25

Okay.
Everything I saw.

DETECTIVE

All right.

Urn, it's

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September 23, 2014
Page 51

uh, 10:43.

interview.
(This is the end of the

We're going to go ahead and conclude the

interview

Number 3.)
MS. ALIZADEH:

Okay.

We're recording now

and we've just finished playing the third statement

of

Exhibit 24.

that is contained on Grand Jury

So the final statement of

10

shouldn't say final statement, but the fourth

11

statement that we have is a recorded statement that

12

was done by the FBI and I just received the disc of

13

this last night, and so we do not have a transcript

14

of this.

15

So I will ask the court reporter to stop

16

the recording as we begin to play the audio

17

recording of

18

identifying information, but I will ask you,

19

if you will as best you can take down the statement

20

and at a later date there is a transcript being

21

prepared of this, so I will get that to you as soon

22

as I can get that, but I do not have a transcript to

23

pass out to you, the grand jurors, okay.

24
25

by the FBI because of the

So I'm going to give it to Sheila to put


in the computer and at this time it is 9:50 a.m. If

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Grand Jury Volume VI


September 23, 2014
Page 52

you can pause the recording and we will begin

playing the fourth statement of

So we are not recording, but the court

reporter is taking down what's being said.

is going to cue up the statement.

(This is the recorded statement of

Number 4.
All right.

Sheila

Today is

September 17th, 2014, at approximately 1:06 p.m.

We

10

are here today at the FBI St. Louis Building, 2222

11

Market Street.

12

with USA

13
14

This is Special Agent


and the other trial attorney

And we are here to interview, and if you


could state your name?

15
All right.

16

Now,

17

just want to explain to you,

18

St. Louis County have spoken with you already?

19

I know that,

I believe,

Yes.

20

Okay.

I will explain a

21

little bit of a difference of our investigation

22

here.

23
24
25

Uh-huh.
They're doing a homicide
investigation, we are doing a civil rights

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Grand Jury Volume VI


September 23, 2014
Page 53

violation.

Okay.

3
4

If this officer acted outside


of his authority, okay?

Okay.

And so you're here as a

witness voluntary.

don't, you can end it at any time, but you are here

and you are okay?

10

Yes.

11

(Inaudible)

12

Yes.

13
14

You, urn, you are free if you

Okay.

And you are okay with

us recording it?

15

Yes, ma'am.

16

Okay.

17

the specifics, can I get some basic info from you?

18

Uh-huh.

19

Do you have a middle name.

20

Yes

21

Okay.

22

25

Like

Yes.

23
24

So before we get into

Okay.

And what's your date

of birth?
(redacted)

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Grand Jury Volume VI


September 23, 2014
Page 54

(redacted)

Yes.
Social security number?

(redacted)

Can you give me your address?

(redacted)

Okay.

number if we need to contact you again?


Yes.

10
11

have any questions for any of us?


No, not at the moment.

13

15

Okay.
MS.

18

Uh-huh.
MS.

21
22

I just wanted, urn,

just some

preliminary things.

19
20

So I just want to talk a little

bit more about coming in.

16
17

(redacted)

Before we get started, do you

12

14

And is there a good

Uh-huh.
MS.

We want to let you know that it

is a crime to lie to the FBI federal agents.


MS.

Okay.

I don't necessarily

23

think that you're going to, but we like to inform

24

everyone of that.

25

Uh-huh.

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Grand Jury Volume VI


September 23, 2014
Page 55

MS.

And like

just said, if

at any point during the interview you don't want to,

you don't want to talk any more, feel free to leave.

It is voluntary, I know you came through security

and all, you can feel free to say I don't want to

talk any more, okay?

yes.

Yes.

10

MS.

Yes.

12

MS.

So which brings to my next

point, if you start nodding or whatever.

14

I gotcha.

15
16

It is an oral recording, so all

your answers need to be out loud

11

13

And you're shaking your head

MS.

And it is totally fine if you

nod, we will just try and correct you.

17

I gotcha.

18

MS.

If we ask you a question and

19

you answer, we're going to assume you understood the

20

question.

21

question that says to you convoluted or confusing,

22

let us know.

So if at any point one of us asked a

23

Okay.

24
25

MS.

Our intent is not to confuse

you.

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Grand Jury Volume VI


September 23, 2014
Page 56

Okay.

MS.

Our intent is not to get you to

answer a certain way.

Okay.
MS.

So if you think we are trying

to get you to go in a certain direction we are not.

Make sure that you answer, what we want is the

truth.

happened.

10
11

What we want to do is figure out what

So, like I said, our intent is not to lead


you in anyone direction or the other.

12

All right.

13

MS.

If we state something, it is

14

not the way you told us or we mischaracterize, then

15

let us know.

16
17

Okay, all right, not a


problem.
Okay.

18

19

If you want to take us

through what you were doing on August 9th, 2014.

20

Urn, I was at home.

I actually

21

just coming back from, urn, going out to eat with my

22

family.

23

Okay.

24
25

And urn, come back home about


9:00 that morning.

We all takes a nap.

My fiancee

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September 23, 2014
Page 57

wakes up and she tells me a friend is knocking at my

door.
I wakes up, which is now 11:00.

and, urn,

outside or whatever.

not long, two, three, four or five minutes.

happen to go back in, he leaves.

He comes

I goes outside for a few minutes with him


And he, we went outside for
So I

It is getting what, about 11:45 now, urn,

was about to take a nap, and I hear an altercation

10
11

outside.
So I looks outside and, urn,

I see like

12

some kind of tussling going on in the window.

13

Really not sure if, urn, if Mike Brown was punching

14

on him or if the officer was grabbing on him, but

15

something was going on through the window, it just

16

didn't look right.

17

So I glued my eyes to it.

And all of the sudden, urn,

I see, I also

18

see his friend, his friend.

19

the side of the car, he was on the front bumper on

20

the passenger side, maybe 4, 5 feet away from him.

21

And all of the sudden, like I said, they just takes

22

off running.

23

Urn, he was, he was on

And when they takes off running,

I see his

24

friend, he runs behind a two door white car.

He's

25

ducking down behind the trunk of the car looking at

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September 23, 2014
Page 58

the officer because he just immediately gets out of

his vehicle and just started shooting at Mike Brown.

Because he runs down, straight down the middle of

the road.

And, urn, when his friend ran behind the

trunk of the car, he was looking at the officer

thinking that the officer might cut off and walk to

him and shoot him, but obviously, he is just taking

like, you know, large steps in a shooting position,

10

shooting directly at Mike Brown, and he walked past

11

his friend.

12

So at that moment right there, that just

13

gave me enough time to run outside because like I

14

said, I thought that he was going for his friend

15

too, so I didn't want to miss that.

16

time when he walked past that was my time to run

17

outside.

18

So that was my

By the time I gets to the door, I notice I

19

forgot my phone in the bedroom.

20

my phone and then I goes back to the front door,

21

which it didn't take long, just seconds.

22

So I go back, grab

So, urn, but about the time I gets outside,

23

I see Mike Brown, he's now facing the officer, kind

24

of, he bent down like he was hit in the stomach.

25

had both arms wrapped around his stomach and he's

He

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September 23, 2014
Page 59

bent down like he was going down.

So like I said, I thought he was already

shot.

officer lets out four or five more shots.

he hit the ground, you know, that's when I see blood

rollover or whatever.

And, urn, before he was going down, the


And when

And, urn, the next closest I seen the

officer, when he hit the ground, the officer, he was

at least about 4 or 5 feet away from his body now on

10

his walkie-talkie, still have his gun allover him

11

making his call in.

12

phone started recording maybe like two minutes right

13

after when the first two officers come in.

14

Okay.

15
16

And, urn, and that's when my

So that my phone cuts on and I


started recording.

17

Do you have that with you?

18

Uh, yes,

19

Okay.

20

23

Urn, is it out front.

Yeah.

21
22

I do.

Okay.

I'll go grab it real

quick.
Okay.

24

What I want you to do for me,

25

can you circle where your apartment, or kind of make

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September 23, 2014
Page 60

an X where your apartment is.

Florissant and here is Canfield.


Oh, okay.

If this is West

So that means,

apartment building is this one right here.


Okay.

Where is --

You know what, urn, no, it

actually be right here, this white one, this second

one.

White one?

10

Yeah.

11
12

Okay.

And where in that

building is your apartment?

13

The second floor.

14

Second floor.

Okay, go

15

ahead.

Just so it is the second floor.

16

want to go over this in a little bit of detail with

17

you.

18

So -- oh, thank you.

Okay.

22

24
25

This is

your cell phone.

21

23

So I

Okay.

19
20

Okay.

You said you were in your


bedroom, correct?
Yes.
About to take a nap?

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September 23, 2014
Page 61

Uh-huh.
And you hear a altercation,

2
3

what did you hear?

Urn, just some kind of ruffling

going on, I'm not even sure like what words exactly,

but it is kind of ruffling, you know.


Okay.

And when you said you

looked out the window and saw it, where was the car?

The vehicle was over here, the

10

vehicle was --

11
12

You want to draw like a


vehicle?

13

Let me see, there was

14

something right here.

15

of the street sideways.

16

Sideways.

17

Diagonal.
Diagonal.

18

19
20
21
22
23
24
25

His vehicle was in the middle

And where was the

front of the car?


Uh, what, the police vehicle?
Uh-huh, yeah.
That's -- the front of the
vehicle was like facing,

like facing my apartment.

Okay.
Diagonal like.

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Page 62

Okay.
Like he was coming from this

2
3

way basically.
Okay.

was facing,

fair?

So it

let's see, let's go like that, is that

Yeah.
Okay.

So, let me see.

Could you see in the front,

So facing this way.


you said you couldn't

10

tell whether or not he was punching him or whether

11

the officer --

12

Right, through the window.

13

So could you see them?

14

Yeah,

15
16

So your view was not


obstructed--

17
18

Yeah,

I could see them

clearly.

19
20

I could see them.

Did you know it was an


officer when you saw it or you just saw two people?

21

No,

22

I knew it was an officer.

Okay.

23

You know, still inside of his

24

vehicle and somebody outside the vehicle doing some

25

kind of tussling.

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Page 63
Okay.

And then you saw his

friend who we know, did you know either Mike

Brown--

4
5

No, no, but I know I seen Mike


Brown, uh,

in the neighborhood.
All right.

So, I don't know him.

Okay.

MR.

10

Where did you see him?


Just walking with like another

11

little group of people, whatever,

12

the street over there or something.

13
14

MR.

17
18

Did you ever have occasion

to talk to him?

15
16

just up and down

Huh-uh, no,
faces,

I just, I remember

so.
MS.

Do you know the other people he

would be walking in the group with?

19

Huh-uh, no.

20

Do you remember him because

21

now of all the press or also because of his size,

22

his height?

23
24
25

Do I remember his size?


Right.

Did you take

particular notice of him or?

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Page 64

No,

just like his clothes and,

urn, that he was kind of like a buffer guy, because I

know I'm slim.

Uh-huh.

5
6

So, urn,

kind of a little bit buffer, you know.

Okay.

8
9

I just knew he was

Kind of a little chubby like,


so.

10

Okay.

So you see tussling

11

and at this point when you see the two, whether,

12

some -- some sort of altercation.

13

Uh-huh.

14
15

At what point do you notice


his friend,

16

Dorian?
Urn, his friend Dorian, he was

17

clear,

18

front of the passenger side vehicle, not too close,

19

like 4 feet away or whatever.

20

I could see him too.

Like I said, he was in

Uh-huh.

21

So, yeah, at that time that's

22

when I looked out the window and see that going on.

23

Okay.

24
25

While his friend was still in


the front and was down by the window.

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Page 65

1
2

Did you hear anything?

You

said you heard tussling.

Yeah,

not even a certain word, not even a certain word.

just tussling, you know,

Okay.

MR.

Did you hear voices?


Yeah.

MR.

One voice or two?


Urn, maybe two.

Like I said, I

10

just, just like some real tussling though.

11

thought I was hearing lots of noises, maybe like

12

hitting the door, you know.

13

my attention, but not certain words.

14
15

Even

Something that just got

How much, you said you saw


them.

16

Uh-huh.

17

Did you see who necessarily

18

was the initiator?

19

were positioned?

20

Could you see where their bodies

Urn, was positioned?

Urn, let

21

me see, uh, his friend, he was facing the officer's

22

vehicle.

23
24
25

Okay.
Where he was standing.

Like I

said, Mike Brown was definitely standing on the

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Page 66

driver's side window.

Okay.
You know, facing the officer.

Okay.

And you're saying they

were -- as far as him and the officer.

Uh-huh.

You said they are tussling,

how close, could you see how close in contact they

were?

10

Urn, there was definitely close

11

enough.

12

just figured that Mike Brown, he could,

13

think that he was to like real up on the passenger

14

door, it was just a little bit of space and I could

15

just see something going on roughly through the

16

window.

17

Urn, there was definitely close enough so,

MS.

I don't

And just because the recording,

18

you are kind of making like a fist punching back and

19

forth motions; is that right?

20

Uh-huh.

21

MS.

22
23
24
25

Yes?

You say uh-huh.

Yeah, yeah, yeah,

I mean,

just

yeah.
MS.

Okay.

So what I'm going to ask

you, you know, uh, the cell phone video that you

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gave to St. Louis County, is that the same cell

phone video that you referred to before that is on

your phone?

Yeah, urn, the one I have when

he walked off and came back into the picture, the

same one, yes.

MS.

So in that video, the very

first thing that you say, you are kind of, you

remember you are talking while you are videoing?

10
11

Uh-huh.
MS.

Okay.

So one of the very first

12

things that you say, that you said that the guy, the

13

black guy just ran, ran up to the car and was

14

punching on it.

15
16

Yeah.
MS.

You said, the dude ran on the

17

side, urn, you talking about the other one ran to the

18

Monte Carlo, then he went back to the first guy.

19

You said, the dude was all up in his car, you said

20

up in his shit punching on him.

21

Yeah, that's what I assume

22

because, urn, younger people like that,

23

you know, that don't want to go to jail, you know,

24

just being young.

25

like that will be punching an officer to get away or

So, you know,

I think that,

I assume a person

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something like that.

MS.

Okay.
So I automatically assume that

3
4

was going on.

MS.

And that's fine,

get to what you observed.

Yeah.
MS.

I just want to

So you saw this punching motion

like you just made; is that correct?

10

Yeah, but I mean, that's not

11

exactly what I saw, that is just, you know because I

12

just seen arms,

13

you know,

MS.

14
MS.

19

You said the officer maybe,

right?

17
18

Okay.
The officer maybe had his arm.

15
16

going through the windows.

The officer maybe,

yeah,

yeah,

it's a big maybe.


MS.

Okay.

So we are 100% right,

20

when you-- you're letting us know when you're

21

assuming versus what you saw, and that's exactly

22

what we want you to do.

But I'm going to try just

23

to get a little detail.

If you don't know something

24

or don't remember, that's perfectly acceptable.

25

Okay.

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MS.

I don't want you to think that,

you know,

I'm trying to get you to say something you

don't know.

there to understand what you saw.

give your interview to St. Louis County you said you

saw arms exchanged.

But I'm just trying to because I wasn't


So when you first

What do you mean by that?

Urn, urn,

arms moving also and I saw Mike Brown's arms moving

also.

10
11

MS.

Okay.

I saw the officer's

You saw Mike Brown's

arms go through the window.

12

Yeah, obviously, it was.

13

MS.

Okay.

I know you said

14

obviously,

I want to ask to make sure I understand,

15

okay.

16

you saw the dude was all up in his car and up in his

17

shit, did Mike Brown, did you see Mike Brown

18

actually approach the car?

Did you actually when you use the expression,

19
20
21

No, that's, that's the part


that I just missed.
MS.

22
23

Okay.
So.

MS.

So by the time you saw, you saw

24

Mike Brown at the driver's side of the car with his

25

arms through the window; is that correct?

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Page 70

Yeah.

MS.

MR.

Okay.
You just then, you also,

you've done the kind of moving your arms the way you

saw Mike Brown do.

Uh-huh.

MR.

You also saw a police

officer when you are talking about some arms

exchanged, you saw the police officer's arms?

10

Yeah, it just kind of looked

11

like, it just kind of looked like, like I said, if

12

he's, an officer is in the car, I could just see his

13

arms.

14
15

MR.

You have your arm bent to

kind of a 90 degree angle in front of you?

16

Yeah.

So, yeah, if the window

17

is right here, so I mean, that's, you know, that--

18

that's what I seen and I could see Mike Brown.

19

know, it just, you know, he could be doing anything,

20

I'm not even saying punching.

21

through the window right there.

22

MR.

You

Just something

Just so I'm clear for the

23

tape, did you have, you are talking about the police

24

officer's arms, he is kind of turning and has his

25

arm in front of him in kind of a --

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Page 71

Like this moving.

MR.

you describe?

Okay.

Is that fair the way

Yeah, yeah.

Okay.

MR.

And you have, when

you are describing Mike Brown's, you have his arms

going back and forth coming

Yeah,

just back and forth, tussling.

10
11

just back and forth,

I want to impress upon you


something.

12

Uh-huh.

13

That we have observed and it

14

is throughout the investigation because I feel like

15

you might be a little bit cautious in your, careful

16

with your words in the sense of, we are aware on,

17

the pressure that exist.

18

Canfield?

19

Are you still living in

Yes.

20

So, and I'm sure this is

21

still a big deal.

22

for a very, very long time.

23

Yes, it is, definitely.

24
25

This is going to be a big deal

And you have been on the


news, right?

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Page 72

Uh-huh.
And you have people come up

2
3

to you and talk to you about that, people up in the

community?

5
6

Yeah, they, yeah, they seen


me, they say they seen me and stuff like that.
Okay.

I also want you to

understand you talking to us today, we don't go tell

people we talk to you.

10

It is completely

confidential.

11

Uh-huh.

12

We take every precaution to

13

protect your information.

14

be out in the community, this is not going to be

15

told, they're not go to say you snitched or you

16

didn't fight for Mike Brown enough.

17

So this is not going to

We need 100 percent honesty and clarity,

18

and we are not going to say, we are not on one side

19

of the other, you know, this isn't for -- for the

20

search for the truth, okay?

21

Right.

22

So I want you to be confident

23

that you can trust us and trust us to say that we're

24

not going to make, we are not going to skew your

25

testimony, okay?

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Page 73

Okay.

This is it, okay?


Okay.

This is what it is.

I understand.

guys know,

since, since that day to now.

Just so you

I am very, very, nervous about everything

Okay.

Just to let you guys know.

10

And that's completely normal to

11

be nervous, nervous to talk to us, nervous in

12

general.

13

are nervous about more so than others?

Is there anything in particular that you

14

Urn,

I'm, urn,

I have been, I've

15

just been just kind of scared, just kind of scared.

16

Especially, you know, with the interviews.

17

stopped doing the interviews, I stopped after I did

18

one with

19

MS.

21
22
23

Okay.
-- on a Friday.

20

After that I

felt sick, I started worrying.


MR.

Why is that?
I don't know,

I just started

24

something, like something may happen, you know.

25

started thinking about, wait a minute,

I done did

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Page 74

quite a few interviews and I don't have a lawyer and

why do everybody else have lawyers when they put out

the very first interview, you know.

I Googled my name and I seen a lot of

stuff and I came across something, uh, that somebody

put,

get stitches, and then under it says something about

people keep talking, they are going to get

you know, we are going to do something to you.

I seen my picture, and it said like snitches

10

MR.

11

What's that.

I don't know.

12

You know,

It's spelled

I'm not even sure what that

13

is, but I've just been nervous and scared, and I

14

have been letting everybody know about my time in

15

and where I'm going and stuff like that.

16

So, uh, but like I said, until this day,

17

but it has been like two weeks, two, three weeks

18

now, you know, no reporters at my house or nothing,

19

no calls.

20

regular day and going to work every day, taking care

21

of my family and stuff, doing the same thing every

22

day.

23

so.

I'm kind of,

I'm still in my

I don't go nowhere, but I come home,

24
25

You know,

you know,

But I'm keeping it cool, but the ones like


at work,

I -- I tell them because I don't show it

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Page 75

neither.

Like when I be at work,

my face all the time, you know,

until they,

it and stuff like that.

you know.

know.

I have a smile on

I don't show it

I seen you on TV and want to talk about


And I tell them how I feel,

So I'm just staying cool though, you

Okay.

But very nervous.

This is the first time you

10

are talking to us and we can treat that as a first

11

time.

12

Uh-huh.

13

You are a, you are now a

14

federal witness so, and with that comes certain

15

intentions.

16

comfortable.

17

So,

So we want to make sure you are

I mean, we would like to offer you

18

water, you are more than entitled to,

19

get up and take and walk around and if that makes

20

you feel more comfortable, but.

21
22

if you want to

I'm fine right now.


MS.

Yeah, and we want you to know,

23

if at any point someone does intimidates you or let

24

me be specific, to intimidates you or scares you or

25

you feel somehow more nervous than general

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Page 76

nervousness, you certainly should, urn, call

I know you have her number here at the FBI.

witness information is something apart from

everything else.

okay, not some

(inaudible)
Okay.

It could be a crime.

So we are trying to be specific,

5
6

Because

General nervousness is normal,

MS.

especially like in (inaudible).

If there is

10

anything in particular that makes you nervous at

11

all, we want to know that.

12

particular or just a general feeling from Goggling

13

yourself?

14

So is there anything in

Urn, that, urn, one moment, urn, at the time

15

when the audio came out about the shooting, let me

16

see, like a week and a half earlier before that I

17

stopped doing interviews, I didn't receive no calls,

18

I was fine.

19

I could go home and enjoy.


So when that came out,

I started

20

getting calls again, they was at my house while I

21

was at work trying to come up to my job.

22
23

MR.

are referring to?

24
25

And who were they that you

The reporters, news reporter.


MR.

Uh-huh.

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And urn, let's see, maybe the

1
2

same day I knew it was on the tube that when it

aired on the news and stuff like that, it was on a

Tuesday or a Wednesday.

fiancee about 9:30 that night to leave out of my

house to go pick her up.

a call from a reporter at six something.

another call at seven or eight something and then I

got a text like just before 9:00.

10

I had to go pick up my

I know that day I received


And

I had to put up my little son's car seat

11

in the car.

12

as soon as, right when I gets to my car, a lady just

13

runs up, it is dark now.

14

there is not a lot people out,

15

but she just runs up,

16

And at this time I notice


I know that for sure,

just runs up, hey,

can you do another interview, you know, but

17

she was nice.

18

was,

19

So I went outside to go and do that and

She just ran up, you know, like it

I was already scared at that point.


But I just, I looks at a lot of movies and

20

stuff and it just gets me thinking like, like if

21

anybody was trying to at that time, you know, that

22

was a good opportunity at that time.

23

You know,

24

MS.

25

I think of stuff like that.


Are you worried about your

physical safety, is that what you are trying to say?

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Page 78

I don't know.

If you are, that's fine.

MS.

3
4

I really don't know,


don't know.

Okay.

MS.

Okay, okay.

10

Let's get back to, urn

some more details that you can tell us.

I really

I want to make it very clear


to you though, we aren't going to talk.
going to say we spoke with

We aren't
, I'm sorry,

The only thing are people that

11

12

actually go to the news.

13

people that no one knows about because we don't tell

14

them.

15

speak with someone today, that it stays with us.

16

Does that make sense?

So we want you to feel confident that you

17

Yeah.

18
19

So we have a whole list of

Okay.
MS.

What you hear on the news from

20

a federal agent or the FBI, it didn't come from us.

21

So if that happens, or you hear rumors, call us and

22

find out because it may just be rumors.

23

going to go to the news ever, all right?

24
25

We are not

Okay.
MS.

So if you start hearing rumors,

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Page 79

and you start thinking something's up, call and find

out because I'm telling you right now we're not

going to go to the news.

Okay, all right.

MS.

Okay.

So we were talking about

this, urn, the arms exchange.

from your window; is that right?


Yes.

8
9

10

MS.

Yeah.

12

MS.

I had the blinds bent a little


bit.

16

MR.

17

MS.

18

blinds.

close.
MS.

blinds.

25

Okay.

So you had the vertical

Did you have to move your hand to watch it?

23
24

So they horizontal or vertical

Yeah, the straight ones that

21
22

Okay.

Like that?

19
20

Were you watching through the

blinds?

14
15

Do you have blinds on your

window?

11

13

You are watching this

Yeah,
MS.

I had to bend down.

Gotcha, okay.

So while you are

watching this, at some point do you yell out to

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Page 80

2
3
4

Uh-huh.
MS.

Do you yell out to

at

some point.
Yeah,

I yell out to her,

think it was just about the time that I notice that

the officer went past Michael Brown's friend.

9
10

MS.

13

Uh-huh.
MS.

They just takes off running.


MS.

20

MS.

23

takes off running at the same time.


MS.

Do you know now their names?


Urn, Mike Brown and uh --

MS.
that's fine.

If you don't know his name,


How would you describe him?
I know he had dreads.

24
25

They, being the, the two boys?


Yeah, two boys yeah, they just

21
22

Okay.
They just takes off running.

18
19

Urn, what happens, did you

observe that end of the tussle?

16
17

So

arms are exchanged back and forth out the car.

14
15

So let's back up.

the friend that you're watching, as soon as these

11

12

Okay.

MS.

Okay.

So it is Mike Brown and

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Page 81

the guy with the dreads?

Yeah.

MS.

Okay.

So at this point, urn,

you said you see Mike Brown and the guy with the

dreads take off through there?


Uh, yeah, urn, like I said, I'm

on different sides though.

driver's side of the car, so he takes off behind the

vehicle directly in the middle of the road.

10

MS.

Mike Brown is on the

Okay.

11

And his friend, there was a

12

parked vehicle, and maybe a little bit behind the

13

police cruiser.

14
15

When you point to it, will


that help you a little bit?

16
17
18
19
20
21

The vehicle was leaving right


there.
Okay.
It was actually two buildings.
Okay.
Two buildings.

I would say

22

his friend was in the front and he runs, like I

23

said, to the very first one to the trunk of it

24

because the officer gets out of the car and started

25

shooting and his shooting stance and taking large

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Page 82

steps.

I don't remember seeing him running.

I'm sorry I cut you off.

you see this guy with the dreads, where does he

actually go.

5
6

He runs, yeah, he runs behind


the trunk of the white car, the first one.

So

And when he's at the car, what

MS.

does he do?

He looked at the officer to

10

make sure the officer's not coming to him.

11

like each shot that went off, he was like, you know,

12

ducking each time.

13

You saw him ducking.

14

you're saying that what

15

you are assuming what he's doing?

16
17

Yeah,

MS.

19
MS.

I mean, yeah, that is what he was

He was ducking, right?

And he's now behind the trunk

of the car; is that correct?

22

Yes, uh-huh.

23

25

(inaudible), so can I say

Yeah.

20

24

So

doing, that is what he was doing.

18

21

Because

MS.

And you're able to watch him do

that?
Yeah,

I clearly saw him.

He's

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Page 83

ducked down looking at the officer is like each shot

that went off, he was like bam and going around the

building to the passenger side.

that the door was opened,

door was open, but each shot that went off, he was

kind of like bam, going over to the side watching

him but then I said that I noticed he went past him.

MS.

And then I notice

I don't know how wide the

Let me ask you.

When you were

watching the guy with the dreads behind the vehicle

10

(inaudible) as he is going to the passenger side,

11

did you then leave from your view as he's going to

12

passenger side?

13

No, no, no,

I could see him

14

clear, he didn't hop in until, like he didn't hop

15

into the vehicle until, uh,

16

that his friend now did hit the ground.

17
18

MS.

I think that he noticed

Did you actually see him hop in

the vehicle.

19

No,

I really didn't because,

20

urn,

21

the guy that he was shooting at now.

22

I more, when he past, I more started focusing on

MS.

23
24
25

Okay.

So let's back up.

Uh-huh.
MS.

So the two guys start running?


Right.

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Page 84

MS.

They're at a different point,

they're at different areas of the street, right?

Yes.

MS.

Your intention is

initially on who?

6
7

Okay.

It is on both of them,

it's --

it's on both of them.


MS.

Okay.
So, urn,

like I said, when -- I

10

didn't want to leave out that window,

11

officer shooting, and that gets me like, hum.

12

just thinking that he was going for his friend also.

13

MS.

14

I just seen an
I'm

And you're assuming that?


Yeah,

I was assuming that, but

15

I kept my eyes on both of them.

16

straight down the middle, this one is going for the

17

very first car that he sees.

18

MS.

I see one running

So you see Michael run down the

19

street and you see the guy with the dreads run down

20

to the car?

21

Yeah, the guy with the dreads,

22

he was the main focus as I'm still noticing that the

23

officer is shooting straight, but I'm looking at him

24

is because I'm thinking that the officer,

25

(inaudible)

there is a pause,

like, uh,

cause there is like a

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Grand Jury Volume VI


September 23, 2014
Page 85

pause by the time he went past this time.

is a pause right there during his shooting when,

like I said,

to his friend and shoot him.

focusing on him at that point.

I was thinking that he was going to go

MS.

Brown starts running,

with the dreads?

So there

That's why I was main

So at that point when Mike


your main focus is on the guy

Yeah.

10

MS.

And when you see the officer

11

get out of the car, you're assuming that he's going

12

after the guy with the dreads?

13

No, no, no, no,

I knew he was

14

going for Mike Brown, but I kept my eyes on all of

15

them.

16

MS.

17

Okay.
Mainly that I see the guy with

18

the dreads looking at the officer and the officer,

19

he -- he goes past him.

20

officer see him where he ran to.

21
22

MS.

I'm -- I'm sure that the

You are sure of that why?


Because when he gets out of

23

the car, the guy with the dreads, he was already in

24

front of his vehicle, he runs to the trunk of the

25

first car that he's seeing.

He is looking over the

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trunk, ducked down,


MS.

I'm sure that he saw him.


Okay.
I'm sure of that because

3
4

Now, that's important, okay.

MR.

That's a good example,

be sure of what someone else saw,

9
10

MR.

13

Okay, okay.
MS.
(inaudible)

18

Uh-huh.
MS.

Is that right?
Yes.

MS.

Did you see the police officer

look over at the guy with the dreads?

19
20

So you actually saw the guy

the police officer?

16
17

just

laid eyes on and what you saw, okay?

14
15

That's just an example,

be sure that we are talking about what you actually

11

12

right?

Okay, okay, right.

I mean, obviously you can't

Urn -- no.
MS.

Okay.

And so now you have, urn,

21

how soon after if you saw, how soon after when the

22

boys start running did the police officer run

23

immediately over or get out of the car?

24
25

No, he gets out of the car


immediately.

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Page 87

MS.

Okay.
Immediately.

Cause as soon as

he breaks off just about when,

Brown gets past his vehicle and to the back of it,

and he gets out immediately and starts shooting.


MS.

Yeah,
urn,

MS.

MS.

18

Directly like in shooting


position.
MS.

Okay.

And you had your eye on

that and you're watching?

19
20

How did he have his gun

pointed?

15

17

And then you said the

Yes.

13

16

Okay.

police officer, did he have his gun out?

12

14

just -- just about time,

and a little bit before that.

10
11

So the police officer gets out

and Mike Brown goes past his vehicle.

8
9

like I said, Mike

Yeah
MS.

21

And the guy with the dreads?


Yeah, at the same time so.

22

Like I said, urn, mainly I didn't want to miss

23

anything like that,

24

see it on the movies, but like I said, uh, the guy

25

with the dreads, he was looking at the officer as he

you know with my own eyes, but I

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Page 88

was walking by shooting.

in the window and I know that he went past him,

that's when I went outside.

That's while I was still

So you say the officer was

MS.

shooting, how do you know he was shooting at that

time?

Cause that's when I heard the

gunshots when he's out the vehicle, the moment he

gets out the vehicle.

10
11

MS.

So what did you do when you

heard gunshots?

12

I'm still in the window and,

13

urn, he's shooting, he's walking past his own vehicle

14

to the back of it.

15

vehicle that the guy with the dreads run to, that

16

vehicle is a little bit behind the police cruiser.

17

And urn, like I said, the first

So he walks past that vehicle to where his

18

friend ran to and walked past that and that's when

19

my time was to run outside then.

20
21

MS.

I'm not

(inaudible)

The guy with the dreads.


MS.

24
25

When you say he,

sure who you are talking about.

22
23

Okay.

The guy with the dreads, okay.


Uh-huh.

MS.

I just want to be clear.

So

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Page 89

you decide to do the window after you see the police

start shooting, but did he stop shooting at some

point?

Urn,

I think there was a pause

in that when he past his friend,

vehicle to where the guy with the dreads.

MS.

when he past the

Okay.
When he past the vehicle.

8
9

MS.

When the police officer past

10

the vehicle with the guy with the dreads, that's

11

when there was a pause in the shooing?

12

Yeah.

13

MS.

14

Okay.

And that's when you

Yeah, that's when I runs

15

outside, that's when I runs outside and when I gets

16

outside, now Mike Brown is facing him instead of

17

have his back towards him.

18
19

MS.

22
23

Let me ask you this

though.

20
21

Okay.

Uh-huh.
MS.

Before you went outside, you

said earlier you yell to


Yeah,

I yell to

24

to go outside because they shooting.

25

I going outside at the same time,

for her
That was cause

so I say don't go

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Page 90

outside cause they're shooting.

notice that he past his friend at that time,

just gave me enough time to go outside at that time.


MS.

That's when I
so that

Why did you want to go outside

when there is gunshots being fired?

I mean,

like I said,

I never

seen nothing like that.

that.

the street going toward somebody that just ran from

10

You never seen nothing like

I know the direction was going straight down

the vehicle.
MS.

11

12

Okay.
So.

13

MS.

So by the time you got outside,

14

you said Mike Brown is now facing the officer; is in

15

that correct?

16

Yeah, uh-huh.

17
18

MS.

And tell us what you saw at

that point?

19

the moment I gets outside,

Urn,

20

Mike Brown is now facing the officer and he got both

21

his arms on his stomach,

22

thinking like he's now hit in the stomach somewhere.

23
24
25

MS.

like bent down.

Okay.

So I'm

You are assuming that

now?
Yeah,

I was assuming,

I was

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Page 91

assuming that he was hit down here somewhere cause

he is like this, urn, curled up.

I remember him taking like two small steps

because he kind of ran past his death spot where he

passed away at, he kind of ran past that.

turned around, he got his arms on his stomach, he

bent down,

steps cause he was going like stumbling.

When he

I remember him taking like two small

MS.

10

Okay.
So, uh, and the officer lets

11

out four or five more shots at him and he hit the

12

ground.

13

MS.

So, just so that I will be a

14

little more clear, I know I keep asking the same

15

things.

16

facing the officer and you were demonstrating, would

17

you mind standing up and describing where his hands

18

were at in the area for the recording?

When you go outside, you see Michael Brown

19
20

Yeah, so when I gets outside


he is now like this.

21
22

MS.

for the recording, you are now Michael Brown, right?

23

Yeah.

24
25

And you are actually, and so

MS.

And you are saying he is almost

like--

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Page 92

Like bent down, like he was

1
2

going down.

Okay.

MS.

Like he was going down.

took like two small steps, like he was stumbling.

And you have both hands across

MS.

your stomach and your waist; is that correct?

Yeah.

So, urn, so when I seen that, urn,

that's when the last four or five shots come out.

10

And he drops just like how his body is and, you

11

know.

12

they both, yeah, he just was like how he fell.

13

think one arm fell,

Let me see, yeah, one more, yeah,

14
15

He

MS.

I mean,
I

something like that.


You are showing one arm is down

on his side --

16

Yeah, when he hit the ground.

17

MS.

Let me just be correct for the

18

recording.

Do you know whether it was his left or

19

his right or you just, you just know one hand was

20

across the stomach, waist and the other one was down

21

at his side?

22

Both of them was on his

23

stomach and when he gave out the last shots, his

24

body just boom.

25

MS.

Okay.

And you're showing one

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Page 93

arm across his stomach and the other arm to his

side?

Yeah.

MS.

Okay.

And by the time, and you

say, when you saw was the officer firing those final

shots; is that right?

Huh-uh, yes.

MS.

9
10

So I think that is where the


pause come from.

11
12

Okay.

MS.

Okay.

You can have a seat,

thank you.

13

So your memory is some shots, when you are

14

peeking out, looking out the window through the

15

blinds.

16
17
18

Yes.
MS.

that you saw right before he fell; is that right?

19
20
21

Yes.
MS.

out there, you were

Yes.
MS.

24
25

Was

on the balcony at that time?

22
23

And then there are shots right

Were your kids with you?


Uh, yeah.

MS.

How many of them are there?

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Page 94

1
2

Uh, there was three at the


time.

Okay.

MS.

How old are they?


, and

Okay.

MS.

And so, urn, did you,

when you ran outside, you said initially, we're

talking about pause, you went outside, you realized

you forgot your phone and you went back and got your

phone,

10

and the kids come out at the same exact

time as you?

11
12

Yeah, like at the same time,


at the same time.

13
14

MS.

No, urn,

MS.

18

Okay.
I remember she called them to

19

come outside.

20

MS.

21

of walk out with you,

22

what?

23

25

during the, she

lets the kids come outside at that time.

17

24

Did you have

any kids with you or did they follow you?

15
16

Did you grab it?

So did all three of them kind


is that what's going on or

I think they came out a little


bit after me cause she called them outside.
MS.

Okay.

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Page 95

MS. WHIRLEY:

Let's stop there because I

think we're all kind of restless.

need a break.

4
5

MS. ALIZADEH:

You probably

It is 10:29, and we've

stopped the recording of the fourth interview of

It looks like it is about halfway

through and it has been going on for quite a bit.

So this will be probably a pretty good place to take

about a five,

ten minute break, get up,

stretch, go

10

to the bathroom.

11

the recording, take a few minutes to have a break

12

before we resume.

13
14

And so at this time, we will pause

(Recess)
MS. ALIZADEH:

All right.

It is 10:44,

15

all 12 grand jurors are back in the room after a

16

brief break.

17

the audio statement of the fourth statement of

We are going to resume the playing of

18
19

And at this time I will ask the court

20

reporter to pause the audio recording that we are

21

making and he will continue to transcribe or take

22

down the statement as best he can that is being

23

played for grand jurors, which is contained on Grand

24

Jury Exhibit Number 23.

25

MS.

And then once Michael Brown

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Page 96

fell, the officer, did the officer go near the body

at all?

Yeah, urn, not too close, maybe

4, 5 feet away.

know, with his gun out on his talkie thing.

He kind of standing over him, you

MS.

shoulder, so you saw that?


Yeah, I definitely seen him,

9
10

You are pointing to his

you know, like this, you know, with his gun out
still.

11

MS.

Okay.

And you are

12

demonstrating talking into the mike on his shoulder;

13

is that right?

14

Yes.

15
16

MS.

You didn't see the

officer touch the body or do anything more with him?

17

No.

18

19

Okay.

MS.

Then afterwards, what did the

officer do?

20

Urn, huh, huh, huh.

I think,

21

uh, let me see at that time I was messing with my

22

phone, turning it on.

23

haven't really noticed it until the other two cops

24

came.

25

MS.

So, I think,

I think I

Okay.

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Page 97

I just notice like wait, a cop

just shot somebody and I'm still turning on my phone

because it was off.

MS.

Okay.
Let me see.

Yeah, I can't

remember just like before the other, the first two

officers came, and like what he was doing at that

time like right after he did the shooting or

whatever.

10

I know when he got done, he was standing

over him on his thing.

11

MS.

12

On his radio -I can't remember if he walked

13

to his car first or he came back before the other

14

two came.

15

MS.

Let me ask you this, were you

16

at all trying to get your phone to work while,

17

before Mike Brown went to the ground while this

18

whole thing was happening, were you trying to get

19

your phone to work?

20

Oh, no,

21

like it didn't come on until the first two officers

22

came.

23

MS.

24
25

I was already outside,

I understand that.
Uh-huh.

MS.

Did you try to get it to work

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Page 98

before then.

Oh, no, huh-uh.

MS.

No, okay.

Urn, and just going

back, you said you saw his arms crossed, across his

stomach area, did you notice anything about his

hands?

7
8

No, no,

I just thought he was

shot in the chest or the stomach or something.

MS.

As far as your vantage point

10

from what you saw, his arms and his hands were

11

across his stomach, correct?

12

Uh-huh.

13

MS.

14

Yes, yes.

15
16

Is that a yes?

MS.

At any point did you see his

hands in the air?

17

No,

18

MS.

Okay.

I didn't,

I didn't.

When you decided that

19

you were going to go from the window to the outside

20

to the balcony because there was a pause, how did

21

you know that that would be a good opportunity to go

22

outside?

23

Because,

I mean,

like just

24

seeing an officer with a gun just shoot,

25

know,

just, you

just anybody shooting period, you know.

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Page 99

just see him gets out of the car shooting, you know,

and I'm paying attention to the guy with the dreads.

Cause I'm thinking that he could just easily walk

over and shoot him dead.

that or something like that, you know.

Like I didn't want to miss

So it is just, that was just my timing

right there like when I notice that he walked past

the car and that was just my timing right there bam,

he just got done like with a pause or something

10

because I said when I gets outside, it was still

11

like three,

12

four, maybe five more shots.

MS.

Okay.

And what happened when

13

you got outside, what was the kid with the dreads

14

doing?

15
16

Urn
MS.

17

Did you see him?


You know,

I got my eye,

18

really kind of stopped paying attention to him.

19

Because as I said,

20

passenger side door was open on that car, but I

21

stopped paying attention to him so, and I started

22

focusing on Mike Brown cause now he's dead, and the

23

officer started walking towards him with the gun.

24
25

So, urn,

I did notice that the driver,

let's see, yeah, that's it about

that one, yeah.

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Page 100

MS.

I notice in some of your

previous statements you had said that the kid had

just got in the car and the car had driven off.
Yeah, urn,

I,

I,

I,

I think

that was maybe right when he saw his friend die,

know, hit the ground.


MS.

you

So my next question is, did you

actually see him, the kid with the dreads, get in

the car or did you assume he got in the car?

10

I,

I,

I assume,

I assume that

11

because the car was gone right after that, the car

12

was gone.

13

MS.

14

kid with the dreads

15

him?

And where were -- and did the


(inaudible) where you could see

16

No,

17

and asked to pull off.

18

MS.

19

22

figure that he hopped in

Right.

You figured that,

right?

20
21

Yeah, you know,

I kind of

stopped paying attention when he walked past him.


MS.

Okay, but you actually saw for

23

yourself, the last thing you saw was the kid kind of

24

ducking around that car?

25

Uh-huh.

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Page 101

MS.

And moving?

Yeah, ducking.

And about time

he gets to the passenger side door because it was

open, about the time he got to that,

officer passed him,

and started going on Mike Brown now.

MS.

MR.

9
10

Okay.
So the last time you seen

that car forward


Yeah.

12

-- towards the passenger

MR.
door?

14
15

so that's when I came outside

the guy with the dreads, he's headed for the back of

11

13

I said the

Yeah, yeah, ducking down


looking at the officer all through that time.

16

MR.

But he is heading away from

17

Mike Brown and away from the officer, the opposite

18

direction?

19
20
21

Yeah, yeah.
MR.

And, urn,

so at that time you are watching the officer.

22
23

Okay, all right.

Uh-huh.
MR.

And the guy with the dreads

24

and Mike Brown,

I think you previously said, Mike

25

Brown was about 25 feet

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Page 102

Yeah.

MR.

-- past where that was.

So

at that point you're not watching Mike Brown, you're

watching the police officer and the guy with the

dreads?

6
7

Yeah, urn, cause Mike Brown, he


kind of ran some distance at that time.

8
9

Was he in your field of view,


like could you see him from when you were in your

10

bedroom looking out the window, were you able to see

11

him?

12

Uh, Mike Brown, I couldn't see

13

Mike Brown, cause of, cause of the way,

14

his death spot out of my bedroom window, but as I

15

say, he ran past just a little bit.

16

I could see

Past --

17

You know, that would be right

18

there, that building, I think it is that one right

19

there, that building right there.

20

view at that time, but the officer past his friend,

21

that was my opportunity to go outside.

22
23

MR.

And when, okay.

So he, Mike

Brown left your view there.

24
25

He was out of my

At that moment.
MR.

You don't know, so then you

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Page 103

don't know what's he doing?

Exactly.

MR.

MS.

Okay, thank you.


And the next time he came into

your view is when you went outside and you are on

the balcony and you saw?

7
8

Uh-huh.
MS.

you described, his hands across his stomach.

10

Yes, and like I said, they

11

were still, 25,

12

good enough.

13
14

17

MS.

20

MS.

23
24
25

Were you able to hear any words

coming from either the officer or Michael Brown?


No, no, not at all.
MS.

Okay.

Did you see their mouths

moving at all?

21
22

We don't need -It was some distance.

18
19

I don't even know my measurements

That's fine.

15
16

Him facing the officer and as

Umm, no.

Just the only time,

they got me, that he was talking on his thing.


MS.

Right.
You know,

I'm not sure what he

was saying, but he's talking.

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Page 104

MS.

You are referring because the

audio recording that you are referring, the officer

was talking into or his radio on his shoulder,

correct?
Yes, yes, yes.

5
6

MS.

Okay.

I just want to ask you,

after it all happened and you were on your cell

phone, you're recording?

Uh-huh.

10

MS.

Can you just talk about who was

11

around you?

I know you said you were narrating it,

12

there are people in the background.

13

Yeah, like I said, it was a

14

guy on that parking lot already in a burgundy, maybe

15

a burgundy Bonneville.

16

was already sitting out there and they were just

17

talking.

18

Him and his girlfriend they

And I remember him saying something that

19

the officer reversed back and ran over his foot, but

20

I remember him saying like on a recording that I

21

assumed that he just ran into the car and got to

22

punching on him or whatever, you know, but he said

23

that he ran over, that he reversed back and ran over

24

his foot and tried to grab him through the car

25

window.

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MS.

Do you know this person?

No,

MS.

Have you seen him since?


No.

MS.

When this discussion is

happening, this was occurring on ground level?

Yes.

I never seen him before.

MS.

So the recording you provided

St. Louis County, was it from the balcony?

10

Yeah, it was from the balcony.

11

MS.

Okay.

So just help me

12

understand that.

When I watch that recording, it

13

seemed like, and what you just told me was on the

14

recording.

15

car down below talking up to you?

The person in that car, that burgundy

16

Uh, you know,

17

remember.

18

on the steps wise.

19

really can't remember.

20
21

I can't even

I don't know if he came up or not, like

MS.

So I really can't remember.

You say a burgundy car?


Yeah, yeah,

I know that when I

22

went out there onto ground level, that's when I was

23

really talking to him, but I'm trying to remember

24

like if at the time when I was recording on my

25

balcony, if he walked up to the steps, cause I do

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remember that, you know, so I really can't.

When you say balcony, I'm

sorry,

I want to clarify for my own, is it right

outside your front door or a door outside of your

living room.

6
7

Yeah, it is right outside the


front door.
Okay.

front of your door?

10
11

So steps are right in

Yeah, right in front of my


door, the balcony is right there.

12

Gotcha.

13

Yeah.

14

You indicated initially when

MR.

15

you went to leave your window and go out to the

16

balcony, that you had to double back to get your

17

phone.

18
19

Uh-huh.

20
21
22
23

Where was your phone?

MR.

My phone was in the bedroom.


So you went from your

MR.

bedroom to the door?


Yeah, yeah, yeah.

As a matter

24

of fact, my phone was right there, right there by

25

the door of my bedroom.

I have a little stand right

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there, so I ran that, grab that and went back to the

front door.

All right.

MR.

So I was headed,

large steps too,

from that.

I don't think I missed too much

7
8

I took some

So when you said you saw the


officer get out of the car.

Uh-huh.

10

Did you see what kind of car,

11

vehicle, he was driving, what type of vehicle

12

rather?

13
14

Urn,
the Tahoes, the Tahoes.

15
16

it was definitely a truck,

Okay.

So when he got out of

the car, and the Tahoe is a pretty big car.

17

Yeah, yeah.

18

suv.

19

Uh-huh.

20
21

You could see the officer and


what he was doing?

22
23
24
25

Yeah,

I could just see his

movements, you know.


Okay.
You know,

so.

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1
2

I think after Mike Brown ran


away.

Uh-huh.

4
5

Officer, gets out of his car,


you can see the officer.

Yeah.

His body position?

Yeah.

Over by his car?

10
11
12
13

Yeah, basically from like his


chest on up.
Okay.
So I didn't -- I could see

14

like see his gun too, but not like his stomach on

15

down to until he got past.

16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

Okay.
You know, so.
And you heard the gunshots?
Yeah, that's when I started
hearing the moment he gets out of the vehicle.
I'm sorry,

I can't remember

if you said this, do you know how many?


How many he shots?
Uh-huh, before the pause?
I don't know, maybe five.

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Are you guessing?

2
3

That should be about four,


five.

Okay.

Yeah.
If you're not sure, it is fine

MS.

to say you're not sure.


Okay.

I know it was a nice

round because he gets out of the car immediately and

10

started shooting, just like I said, each time that

11

he shot, I was like I said, I feel for the guy with

12

the dreads.

13

because each time he saw the officer shooting, he

14

was just like, you know, kind of like, I seen his

15

body jump just looking at each time like he was like

16

a duck that he was giving hisself around the

17

vehicle.

18

I think of it as a nightmare too

So I would have to say about four or five.


MS.

Okay.

Do you remember when you

19

first talked to the County detectives, you gave a

20

recorded interview and a couple minutes later, you

21

had a follow-up right away and they went back on the

22

recording, do you remember that?

23
24
25

Urn, with them?


MR.
August 9th.

It would be on the same day,


It was about four or five hours after

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all of this happened that day they came and they

talked to you?

Yeah,

yeah,

yeah,

it was that

same day.

You gave a recorded statement

MS.

and literally within a minute, maybe even seconds

later they went back on the recording.

something that you had asked that you said I

to ask you about.

Was there
wanted

You had said in talking about the

10

initial altercation,

11

heard the shots before the police officer got out of

12

the car and that's what made the police officer get

13

out of the car.

14

you had said that, urn, that you

So I know that since then and today that

15

you heard the shots after the cop got out of the

16

car.

17

was just wondering.

Now one point you said that, that is what I

18

Urn --

19

MR.

20

referring to,

21

you hear the first gunshots,

22

gunshots.

23

Detective

You said,

24
25

You said, what

asked you,

is

asked you, when did


you said you heard

I was in window.

And Detective

and where was the officer at that

point.

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And you said that he was still in the car,

that's when I saw the altercation, whenever it was

happening in the car and the guys ran.

And so at that point you indicated the

first shots were while the officer was still in the

car.

And let me ask you this,

kind of, you

mention at the very beginning,

I meant to ask you

this earlier, but that the guy with the dreads and

10

Mike Brown took off running at like the same

11

instant.

12

Uh-huh.

13
14

MR.

They both

just took off running at the exact same time?

15

Uh-huh.

16
17

Is that right?

MR.

And you hear or seeing

anything that would cause --

18

That's the point,

I didn't

19

even hear a gunshot go off while the officer was in

20

the car, you know.

21

hear.

22

you know.

23

could hear everything because it echos, so I could

24

hear everything, but that is what drew me to the

25

window.

So like I said,

I really didn't

The only thing I heard was a hard tussling,


So that is what drew me to the window,

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But they did take off at the same time,

but I really,

off in the car or something because that was a good

timing, you know.

I didn't think that maybe a shot went

MS.

The reason we ask you is


just read to you the transcript of

because as

your statement, you said at that point that the shot

had gone off in the car.

Yeah, maybe,

I mean,

I know

10

for sure I didn't hear a shot go off in the car,

11

but, urn, like I said, that's probably wasn't like

12

the first interview, that's maybe because I'd have

13

heard that a shot did go off so, you know,

14

trying to put a puzzle together too, maybe that's

15

the reason why they ran, but I didn't hear.

16

MS.

I was

So there is about four hours

17

from the time this whole incident occurred to that

18

the time that the county cops interviewed you.

19

those four hours,

20

it, or people on the street, did you talk to your

21

neighbors,

22

In

I know that you videoed a lot of

kind of talk -No, because a lot of people

23

are my neighbors, they didn't see everything.

They

24

didn't see, it was just a main guy got, uh, from

25

what I saw I kind of, you know,

I like his beginning

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from when he said he saw Ferguson pull up on these

guys.

MS.

Yes, yes.

MS.

MS.

Urn, like I said, he saw the


whole thing basically, but I pieced his with mine.

11
12

When you talked to him, did the

two of you kind of piece this together?

9
10

You talked to him?


Yes.

That guy in the burgundy car?

MS.

You say he saw the whole thing,

and he never gave you his name?

13

No, huh-uh.

14

MS.

15

Do you know how to find him?


Not at all, not at all.

16

don't remember like seeing him again afterwards or

17

the vehicle.

18

MR.

Can you just real quick, can

19

you tell us what he told you again about what he

20

saw?

21

That he said, urn, urn, that the

22

officer pulls up to them and the officer says

23

something to them and they say something back, and

24

he reverses back and like I said, that's why the

25

police cruiser is in the middle of the street

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diagonal because he cuts Mike Brown off.

And he said that he runs over his foot to

catch him or whatever, he said that he reached out

the window to hold him or whatever, and, urn,

maybe that's where the tussle started at.

maybe to let him know or whatever he, maybe he was

punching on him in the window, whatever the case.

That's when I

little tussle.

10

came to the window because I

MR.

and

Going on

heard the

Did he say anything to you

11

about a gunshot while the police officer was in the

12

car?

13
14
15

MR.

really don't

--

Or did the officer say

something about that to you?

16

don't think that he did,

17

think somebody else said that,

18

walked up and said that a gunshot, that's the reason

19

why they ran so fast so, but I don't remember that

20

the guy with the purple car that said that to me.

21

MR.

somebody else that

And so as you sit here

22

today, do you know whether the first shot was,

23

whether you heard the first shot while they were,

24

while the police officer is still in the car or

25

after he got out of the car.

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1
2

I only started hearing shots


when he gets out the vehicle.

MR.

Okay.

And this individual

that you talked about who told you what he saw

before you actually started looking out the window,

you didn't see any of that, the police officer pull

up and an exchange between the two of them talking

or him backing the car up, you didn't see any of

that.

10

No,

11

MR.

12

a break?

13

break.

18

MR.

21
22
23
24
25

You want to leave this on?


That's fine, that's fine.

MR.

That way we don't have to

come back on for

19
20

Did you want to take

Okay.

16
17

Okay.

I think we will take just a few minute

14
15

I didn't.

I hear you,
MR.

I hear you.

We will be back, thank you

for your time.


We will just be a second.
Okay, not a problem.
(They took a break.)
Sorry about that, okay.

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Page 116

No problem.

2
3

You okay, you need to go to


the restroom or anything like that?
No,

5
6

So we have a couple more


questions.

Okay.

I'm fine.

MS.

So what

is saying, we

really aren't going to go and tell anybody that you

10

gave us this information or that we spoke to you

11

because when we do our investigations, we want to

12

find out what happened.

13

out what happened is if people feel that they can

14

truly just kind of open up and let it out.

15

Right.

16
17

MS.

If we end up saying oh, so and

so said this, what do you think about that?

18

Right.

19
20

And the only way to find

MS.

It kind of doesn't, it, it

doesn't, it muddies the water a little bit.

21

Yeah, yeah.

22

MS.

We talked about what you know

23

and we want you to, we really want to show you that

24

we're never going to go to another person and say

25

hey,

told us this or that.

It is kind

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of like, yes, you gave interviews before, and yeah,

you were on TV, but in here, this is totally

separate and apart.

Okay.

MS.

This is your opportunity to

kind of lay it out.

I know that you are concerned

about,

snitches and so forth.

I think you said you saw some websites about

Yeah.

10

MS.

11

from in the community?

12

And so is that from concern

Uh, yeah, it could be

13

anywhere, you know, it could be anywhere.

14

just be anywhere, so I'm not even sure, you know.

15

MS.

We get it.

This has caused a

16

lot of people to take sides and so forth,

17

just want to figure out what happened.

18
MS.

20
MS.

We want to know and what they

saw.

23

25

We really do.
Uh-huh.

21

24

and we

Uh-huh.

19

22

It could

Okay.
MS.

We are not going to say oh, you

know, we got your information from

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because, you know, nobody is going to find out.

Okay.

3
4

is there something
specific that you don't want to tell us?

Uh, no.

Because I'm concerned that

you might have been directly threatened or there is

people, because you keep looking down when you talk

about it.

10
11

I mean, everything I'm just,


nervous.

12

That's okay.

13

I'm not comfortable,

I'm just

14

like after this, you know, uh,

15

that.

16

done and like I said,

17

store and little kids they recognize me and a lot of

18

people, if I get paid a nickel every time I hear the

19

word superstar, you know,

20

whatever.

21

I think of stuff like

I said like, you know, everything that I've


I go to work,

I go to the

I would be rich or

I don't know, it is just -You know you're not in

22

trouble to feel this way, you are not in this alone.

23

You know, you know, you see the news, there is other

24

people too that they do know the position that you

25

are in.

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Page 119

And I know it is a lot different talking

when the cameras are rolling and then talking to us.

Because you understand that there's the lives are

affected by,

and also the lives of the officer and Ferguson

police officers.

know you are a good person,

specifically Michael Brown's parents

So we absolutely 100 percent,

Yes,

you have a family.


do.

That you are concerned with,

10

so if there is something more going on,

11

to explain,

12

that,

Do you trust us?

15

Yeah,
MS.

20

MS.

25

So going back to that,


right?

So you were saying, dude, that

guy just went up on him,

started punching him?

Yeah.
MS.

23
24

trust you.

Uh-huh.

21
22

Okay.

going back to the video that you have,

18
19

suspect that there is, we need to do

Yeah.

14

17

if you want

okay?

13

16

That was your reaction?


Yeah, that was right away.

MS.

That was your gut reaction

based on what you saw, am I correct?

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Yes.

2
3

MS.

That Michael Brown went up to

that car and started punching the officer?


Yeah, yeah,

cause, like I say,

I look at cops all the time, you know, and I see

other stuff that, you know,

out there that does stupid stuff to make an officer,

you know, to get down on them or whatever.

definitely what I assume.

10
11

MS.

it is a lot of people

But that

And -- what you saw, though,

right, you are watching this go on, right?

12

Yeah.

13

MS.

So what you saw, correct me if

14

I'm wrong, this kid is doing something really

15

stupid.

16

Yeah,

I mean, yeah, because

17

like I said, when I see somebody hit a police

18

officer, here I'm hearing a tussle like that,

19

doesn't look right.

20

some guy just run up to the car and started punching

21

on him and the officer gets out of the car and

22

shoots him dead.

23

MS.

it

So I assume that, you know,

Right, and your immediate

24

reaction this kid just did something that was pretty

25

stupid.

You said he got up in the officer's shit,

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Page 121

and those are your words, right?

Yeah.

MS.

Okay.

And your words are like

that kid just went up and started punching on that

officer.

Uh-huh.

MS.

Yes?
Yes.

8
9

MS.

In the background I know that

10

this guy in the red car started like saying oh, no,

11

he started talking about running over and all of

12

that.

13

Yeah, but still at the same

14

time,

I only see the moment when he was already at

15

the vehicle, so I didn't see him run up or anything

16

like that.

17
18

MS.

Right, right.

So I wanted to

ask you some more about that that guy in the car.

19

Uh-huh.

20

MS.

Here is the thing, anything you

21

know that could steer us in the direction of finding

22

him, we would never say

23

you are or how to find you, but it is really

24

important.

25

right?

told us who

We need to figure out what happened,

There are people who, people who were there,

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who saw it.

I mean, if something just come

to my mind,

maybe you could check the license plates on that

vehicle.

I mean, like the video that I have,

MS.

7
8
9

10

And go from there maybe,

don't know.
MS.

Okay.

Is there any other thing

that you know about him?

11
12

Okay.

No, that's the only thing.


MS.

Because it just seems kind of

13

weird to us, right, that this stranger starts coming

14

up and having a whole discussion with you?

15
16
17

Yeah,

started talking to everybody.


MS.

I know.
Like I said, even when I had

18

19

started recording, you know,

20

what I assumed, what I saw.

21

I mean, everybody just

MS.

I started talking of

Right.

22

Uh, even though I saw him

23

already at the window, but I just put it to the

24

point he ran up to the car and started, you know.

25

MS.

What you said was he got up in

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that officer's shit and started punching him.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that is

exactly I saw.

whatever, so.

MS.

what you saw.

He ran up all up in his shit,

Is that what you saw, that is

Yeah, but still, I mean, when

I saw this kid be different like, as far as like he

could be grabbed to the car.

10

MS.

11
12

Did you see him get grabbed?


No,

I didn't see him get

grabbed, but if --

13

Have you ever, I'm going to

14

take his off, have you ever been in a physical fight

15

before?

16

Yes.

17

Fight with somebody.

Now

18

imagine, did you feel like you were at an advantage

19

or disadvantage?

20

I mean, you know,

I feel if

21

you are in a fight sometimes, you know, this guy's

22

getting an advantage.

23

Let me ask you, if you are

24

sitting down and someone was standing, who would you

25

say had the advantage there?

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Of course, I believe that's a

truck that, of course, anybody standing out of the

vehicle would have an advantage.

Okay.

Because I've seen it before

with my own eyes, that if a guy gets out of the car,

they get to punching on somebody that's in the car,

you know, because they almost can't do nothing with

two hands, you know.

10

Okay.

11

Maybe with one, grab one hand

12

or whatever, but you know, so that there is anybody

13

outside the car would have the upper hand, you know,

14

so I do see that.

15

And did you see that?

16

Yeah, I mean, I look at it

17

like I said, anybody outside the vehicle has the

18

upper hand.

19
20

Right.
I assume, you know, he ran up

21

to the car and punched him up in his face or

22

whatever, then they takes off running.

23

So based on what you saw, did

24

you see, did you feel that Michael Brown had an

25

advantage or did you think it was the other way

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Page 125

around?

Uh,

I mean, the advantage, he definitely

has an upper advantage if he's throwing punches, if

he's throwing punches from outside the vehicle.

but like I said, it could be different reasons why,

you know, he was on the side and then pulling,

trying to be pulled in or something like that, but.

8
9
10

We're not asking you to


figure that out either, so don't feel like you have
to.

11

Okay.

12
13

We're just trying to find


different ways to kind of jog your memory.

14

Yeah, but anybody standing

15

outside the vehicle they would have the upper

16

advantage on throwing punches.

17
18

MS.

Yes.
MS.

21
lot younger guy.

23

know he's younger.

25

About how old is he?


I know he's younger than me, a

22

24

Could I ask you some more about

that guy in the burgundy car?

19
20

So,

MS.

I'm not even sure how old he is,

Was he black or white?


Black.

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MS.

Was he with anybody in the car?

2
3

With a girl, maybe his


girlfriend.

MS.

Did you hear him call his

girlfriend by name or anything like that?

No, huh-uh.

MS.

So this is just some guy that

randomly is sitting in your neighborhood at that

exact moment?

10

Uh-huh.

And when I got the

11

recording,

12

level and got to talking to him because he's already

13

right there and I got to

14
15

I got to talking and then I got on ground

MS.

What kind of car did you say it

was or do you know?

16
17
18

It was like a burgundy


Bonneville.
MS.

Okay.

19
20
21

24
25

know him?

No.
MS.

Did you guys ever find out

afterwards who he was.

22
23

Does

No, not really, not really,


not really.
Anybody else in the
neighborhood who told you that they saw what

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Page 127

happened?

From the beginning, there was

another guy,

like I said, that walked up, he had

dreads too.

And he said gunshot went off in the car

and that's the reason why they took off running.

MS.

No.

MS.

9
10
11

14

apartments,

I've seen him before.

MS.

Do you know his name?


No.

MS.

Okay.

Do you have anything

else you want to tell us?

15
16

Ever seen him before.


I've seen him around the

12
13

Do you know him?

I have something to ask.


MS.

17

Sure.
You reverts back to about the

18

statement that the police or whatever came to my

19

house and I did that and, urn,

20

change, you know, you already told me, you know,

21

you change anything, but you know,

22

don't get in trouble for that.

23
24
25

MS.

I mean,

I hear a
can

I'm hoping that I

You're not in trouble.


I just said maybe, maybe when

I said that is cause, like I said,

I already had did

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Page 128

so many interviews already, so each time when I like

hear, you know, what, even one time when I had like

my first of two interviews.

MS.

Uh-huh.

My first of two interviews, my

first of two interviews I was already saying he, the

officer let out about eight shots, eight, nine

shots.

interviews after that, that's when I notice about

But then I remember like a few more

10

the,

11

reporter,

12

Mike Brown was hit six times, you know.

13

I saw the autopsy.

And I remember telling the

I said they only found six shells, that

I was saying like, he only shot six times

14

through that whole time?

15

breaking that down so, but if I even said that to

16

him, it is probably, you know, because I already

17

heard somebody said that's the reason why they ran

18

cause a shot went off.

19
20

MS.

I was

Here is the thing, you are not

in trouble, okay?

21
22

So, you know,

Okay.
MS.

I don't want,

I want to put you

23

totally at ease.

I understand that, you know,

24

you're sitting here talking to federal agents,

25

federal prosecutors and it can seem scary to

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Page 129

anybody, okay?

Uh-huh.

MS.

You're not in any trouble, as

long as you just tell us what you, yourself

remember.

Yeah.

MS.

Yeah.

8
9

10

MS.

Okay.

As long as you do that,

you would only get in trouble if you lie to us.

11

Yeah.

12
13

The best that you can, okay?

MS.

That's why we want to make sure

that you are telling us, we want to know the truth.

14

Oh, okay.

15

MS.

Whatever side it falls on,

16

whoever it helps or doesn't help or hurts, we just

17

want to know what happened.

18
19
20

Okay, not a problem, not a


problem.
MS.

We don't want you to get

21

worried about getting in trouble.

We do want you,

22

we want you to just talk about it later, you are a

23

piece of the puzzle, all right?

24

falls with you, nothing makes or breaks with you.

25

Even though you are on the news or media calling

Nothing rises or

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Page 130

you, that doesn't matter.

case like any other case, okay?

Okay.

You are a witness on a

And so we just want you to tell

MS.

us what happened.

Okay.

MS.

We understand it happened

quickly, people have different vantage points,

different views of things.

10

Right.

11

MS.

12

We want to know what you,


saw and heard.

13

Okay.

14

MS.

So is there anything that you

15

told us here today that you want to correct, that

16

you think maybe we didn't understand correctly?

17

No.

18

MR.

I think you said something

19

about being concerned about changing things or

20

whatever.

21

here today, this is a clean slate, okay?

You should have seen how many, us sitting

22
23

Okay.
MR.

What you have had to say

24

before doesn't make all that much difference.

25

we are interested in is how do you recall this.

What

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Page 131

1
2
3

Right, uh-huh.
We want what your best

MR.

recollection is.

4
5

Okay.
So don't worry about trying

MR.

to keep things straight or not changing things.

mean, if you recall things differently, then you

just need to let us know.

9
10

Right, right, right, right.


And I mean, as we sit here,

MR.

11

is there anything at all that, you know, as you look

12

back at it, that you are concerned at all?

13

Urn, no,

I told everything, the

14

whole story, everything you guys asked.

15

that's really nothing.

16

it is just maybe a few questions.

17

went off in the car.

18

I mean, it is just kind of,

19

thing, others heard another.

20

you didn't hear it.

21

yourself, heard and saw.

23

About if a gun

Look, some people heard one

MS.

22

I mean,

You didn't hear it,

We just want to know what you,

Okay.
MR.

We want to know what you

24

actually know.

If you're not sure, if you don't

25

recall, we need to know that, okay?

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Page 132

Okay.

2
3

What is your concern about

MR.

that, about the shot was in the car?


No, no,

I mean, not too much

of a big concern, but it just, uh, uh, like

basically me just wanting to know if a shot really

did go off in the car.

MS.

We can't tell you one way or

the other.

10

I understand.

11

MS.

Here is the thing, it is like

12

we said before, if we tell you what someone else

13

said.

14

Absolutely.

15
16

MS.

Gotcha.
MS.

18

You start putting pieces

together.

20
21

Uh-huh.
MS.

And you, you know, you may

22

start thinking you know something when in fact,

23

know, you don't.

24
25

It is

natural when people start telling you things.

17

19

What you, yourself, saw.

I understand,

you

I clearly

understand.

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Page 133

MS.

Okay.

So you brought up

before, so

is reading what I refer to the

statement,

is reading a transcript of it.

reason we were asking about it is it was clearly

something different that you said from what you're

saying today.

trouble for that, we are just trying to figure out

why you said one thing on one day and why you are

saying a different thing today, and that is why we

10

Okay.

MS.

14

MR.

Right.
And you said other things

before, you mentioned different

16
17

That is just that

little part.

13

15

It doesn't mean you are getting in

brought it up.

11
12

The

Yeah, yeah, yeah,

I was

adding--

18

MR.

You have talked about, yeah,

19

right,

20

back through those statements, there is that one

21

instance we talked about, you know, where you talk

22

about the police officer being in the car when you

23

heard the first shots fired.

24
25

I'm just talking about,

you know, when you go

Other times you talked about that he was


out of the car when the first shots were fired.

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What we are trying to figure out is just

how you best recall it or whether or not you are

sure about whether he was or, you know, at the time

that the shots occurred, that's all we are trying to

do.

Okay, not a problem.

MR.

Well, I mean, let me just

touch on that one more time.

you recall about at that point as you are looking at

10

Can you tell us what

the window?

11

As I'm looking out the window,

12

I see Mike Brown at the driver's side window of the

13

police vehicle.

14

moving, I see the officers arms moving, so I heard a

15

hard tussling.

16

I see a tussle,

I see his arms

Then all of the sudden they just takes

17

off, they just takes off running.

I see his friend,

18

like I said, he runs to the first car that he sees,

19

runs behind the trunk of the car because the officer

20

immediately gets out of his vehicle and started

21

shooting.

22

he was taking large steps going for Mike Brown.

23

About the time that I notice that the

So I see him looking at the officers as

24

officer went past his friend, that's when I came

25

outside.

By the time I gets outside, I see Mike

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Brown now facing the officer.

his arm under his stomach and, urn, like he was going

down, not even to surrender, to say give up,

going down to bleed a little, but the officer just

lets out four or five more shots at him and then he

hits the ground.

MR.

He's bent down, got

just

All right.
Just like (inaudible)

8
9

MR.

You said several times too

10

that those first shots that officer fired,

11

the car, that you heard those.

12

you actually saw him fire those shots or did you

13

hear those shots, or because you said several times,

14

I notice in your prior statements that you refer to

15

hearing them.

16

closer to

Are you sure that

Yeah, I saw him.

I saw him

17

shooting at Mike Brown the moment he gets out of the

18

vehicle.

19
20

MR.

23

The moment he's

getting out of the vehicle?

21
22

Okay.

Yeah, the moment -MR.

Is he fully out of the car?


Yeah, he is fully out of his

24

car standing with his gun out, starts shooting, but

25

he is still in his vehicle range and his cruiser

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Page 136

range.

before he started shooting.

gets out of the car, bam, you know, starts shooting.

So he ain't even get past it, you know,

MR.

MS.

Not at the moment.

MS.

Uh, no.

12

MS.

16

Yes.
MS.

19

Is there anything else you want

us to know, anything else you want us to know?

17
18

Do you think we treated you

fairy?

14
15

Did we force you to say

anything you didn't want to say?

11

13

Do you have any other questions

for us?

10

Anything else?
No.

So he is just like, he

Uh, no, not at the moment, but


you know, maybe as time go on,
MS.

I do have you guys.

Yes, you do.

That's a good

20

point you made.

21

came in here and spoke to us doesn't mean you can't

22

feel free to call

23
24
25

I want you to know just because you

I definitely will because I


don't have a lawyer neither.
Do you feel like you need a

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Page 137

lawyer?

Maybe not, maybe not.

just looking at why do everybody else have a lawyer.

That's an excellent

Do they feel like me?


MS.

We can't tell you, all we can

tell you,

here and tell us what happened and the truth,

you are not in any trouble if you come in

9
MS.

11

told us what happened.

So as long as you came here and

12

Right.

13

MS.

Then you don't have to worry.

14

Okay.

15

Because that's all we really

MS.
want.

17

Okay.

18
19

okay?

Okay.

10

16

I'm

Can I ask you,


about it,

I'm concerned

I understand the worry.

20

Uh-huh.

21

And I think that if you want

22

to talk to us again or one-on-one if you just want

23

to talk to

24

to talk anyone,

25

there is more to it,

, you want to talk me,

you just want

you can do that too, but I do think


I really do.

And I want you to

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Page 138

feel comfortable with that because understand, you

are not in any trouble, do you understand that?

I understand.

Okay.

MS.

Is there anything else?

You

seem hesitant, that's why I keep asking you.


Urn, I mean, since, since, you

know, I received the call, you know, about, you

know, come down to the FBI or whatever, I've been,

10

you know, I can't wait to get down there, you know,

11

I need to tell you how I feel.

12

going on, it is just me, do I need to keep doing

13

what I'm doing, go to work, you know, take care of

14

your family, you're doing, you're fine.

15

don't know if I need to be told that, you know, or

16

if I really need some help, you know.

17

really bothering me.

18
19

Okay, so I

It is really,

Like all the way it has been over a month


now, I haven't ate good, you know.

20
21

You know, what's

I just checked my weight today and I lost


some pounds.

22

Okay.

23

At the time that I checked it

24

was like 160, 165.

25

152.

I checked it today, it was like

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Page 139

Okay.

I've been eating like

horrible, like once a day, like mostly like at

nighttime.

snacks, I'm not getting full like, you know,

everybody supposed to eat good full like two or

three times a day at least, but I'm not eating much,

not getting as good of sleep.

You know, so the whole day I eat little

What's on your mind?

10

I mean,

I don't know just, urn,

11

maybe just what if what I already did with the

12

reporters and, you know,

13

is looking for me, maybe.

14

weird feelings.

15

I be thinking like somebody


You know,

I just have

What type of person, what do

16

you think that you did wrong?

17

I mean,

just the point, urn,

18

did quite a few interviews and I don't think,

19

know there's a few witnesses.

20

notice--

21

I only

I think I just

There is only a few witnesses

22

that went to the media, there is a big difference

23

between only a few witnesses.

24

Okay.

25

didn't do as many as I did.

I don't think they

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Page 140

Okay.

But like I said,

I don't know

if I'm just worried, by me doing that I just

immediately felt so worried since then and not

having a lawyer and seeing that on the internet.

Are you worried about being

MS.

called a snitch?

8
9

No,
that.

I'm hoping,

I'm not worried about

I don't want nothing happening to

10

me, you know.

11

good enough or whatever, and you know,

12

nobody coming looking for me because I have good

13

information, whatever the case.

14

MS.

15
16

Maybe if my information is really


I don't want

Gotcha.
I have a weird feeling.

MS.

Well,

I tell you this, first of

17

all, and I know if you feel like your personal

18

safety is endanger, you need to call 911, but you

19

have my name.

20
21

Yes.
Okay.

If you get any threats

22

or anything you call me.

23

number, you can talk to anyone.

24
25

That is the main office

Okay.
If that makes you --

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Page 141

Okay.
You know, anybody you want to

2
3

talk with.

Okay.

5
6

Ask for me, they'll put you


through.

Okay, all right.

8
9

But I suspect there is more


to it.

I know there is a lot of pressure, like you

10

said, you feel like,

11

your mouth, but there may be a bit of a spotlight on

12

you?

13

I don't want to put words in

Yeah, that too, that too.

14

know, it is almost like a now,

15

that I have to, you know, worry about it now.

16

this is just all up in my mind.

17

I already got bills


Now

Yeah.
You know, so,

18

19

You

MS.

I mean.

You said something before about

20

being a good enough witness, there is no such thing

21

as being a good enough witness.

22

what they know.

23

Everybody knows

Right.

24

MS.

25

plays a part.

Or they don't know, everybody


There is no measure for anything, the

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only thing we want is for people to come in and tell

us what happened.

enough, they are what they are.

Okay.

MS.

Okay.

10

You saw what you saw, heard

what you heard and that's it.

Nobody is good enough or bad

MS.

Not good enough or bad enough,

you happen to be there and see the part that you


did.

11

Okay.

12

Do you feel comfortable with

13

everything you said today?

14

Yes.

15

Okay.

16
17

Okay.
MS.

Thank you.

18

19

All right.

20
21
22
23

Thank you.

I hope that is good enough.


MS.

I just said there is no such

thing as good enough, did you tell us the truth?


Yes, of course.

I done

24

exactly what I saw and just to let you know, the

25

last interview I did with

, that last

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Page 143

lone.

You know,

I don't know if he was trying to

confront me or whatever, but he had the other girl,

he had me to listen to her story so see whether my

story were to change.

and this is what I saw, you know.

MS.

point.

I mean, that's what she saw

Right, so you made a good

He showed you someone else's interview?


Yeah.

8
9

MS.

And he asked you about it,

10

right?

Is why you feel uncomfortable, this is why

11

we don't tell you what other people said, we just

12

want to know what you said.

13

you about someone else's.

14
15

I gotcha.
MS.

16
17
18

MS.

23

Yes, yes.
MR.

You are comfortable today?


Yes.

MR.

Do you feel like we

confronted you the way he did?

24
25

Do you feel like we treated you

fairly with the questions?

21
22

Okay.
I gotcha.

19
20

We are not going to ask

Yeah.
MR.

That we confronted the way

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1
2

did, is what you are talking


about?

3
4

Oh, no, no, no.


All right.

MR.

But you're

concerned about the way (inaudible), that's why you

quit doing media interviews?

No, no, because after that, it

just, I just thought I did so many and all of these

reporters, they was coming to my house, calling my

10

phone, they coming to my momma's house.

11

know how they got my momma's address.

12

I don't

They called my next door neighbor, I don't

13

know how they get her number.

14

when I get home, it has been like a good two weeks

15

after his death, like they like, when I get home, I

16

like to straighten out my apartment.

17

straighten up to make sure everything is right.

18

They was just like,

I like to

I've got kids, you know, I like to

19

straighten up and relax.

20

like to do when I get home there may be three or

21

four waiting on me, you know, trying to get a piece

22

of me and stuff like that whatever.

23

they throw cameras in my face and say, it is live.

24

I'm like okay, whatever.

25

That's the first thing I

And, you know,

But it is just after so many of them, that

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is just when it hit me, that same night after doing

that show, I came back home and my fiancee came home

too, and we kind of had some words exchanged and she

didn't want to give me a kiss or whatever, but

normally when she don't do that,

with her, but I didn't bother her at all about that.

I go up and mess

I just went into the kitchen and started

walking around in the kitchen and I started to fix

me a sandwich.

As I was fixing a sandwich, I've got

10

the two (inaudible) out, but I'm just pacing back

11

and forth in the kitchen.

12

being real nervous.

13

I started sweating and

So when my fiancee walking around, you

14

know, with an attitude, I stopped her in the kitchen

15

and said look, you know, right now, you know, what

16

you want right now is petty right now, I just want

17

to tell you that right now.

18

sick right now, very, very sick.

19

I'm nervous right now and I'm scared, you know.

20

I'm feeling very, very


I'm shaking and

It is just since that day, it has been

21

kind of different.

Like I said, my stomach started

22

hurting then one morning, on Monday morning, on

23

Mondays I have to be at work about 6:00 in the

24

morning to go to the office, but I woke up like five

25

something with some real chest pains.

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So, you know, it was just almost like, you

know, something trying to happen, you know.

after another, whatever.

One

I don't know, like I said if I'm just

worried.

I be on the highway and a couple of times

I'll be seeing like almost accidents going to happen

or whatever, you know.

And like I said, I'm

worried,

It has been twice I seen

when I leave off work,

I be worried.

I gets on the highway, has

10

been two times I seen a guy on a motorcycle, black

11

motorcycle, black helmet, black everything, follow

12

me.

13

but just, you know,

14

at first, but now I see him.

I don't know, he wasn't following me though,

15

I didn't see him in my rear view

And from St. Charles Rock Road to Lucas

16

and Hunt, it is kind of a little distance.

17

behind me for a minute and I got to thinking like,

18

then he zoomed past me and then started catching up

19

and then he started catching up.

20

front of me and then he zoomed in front of another

21

car and I'm like oh, that could have been an

22

accident.

23

He was

And he zoomed in

I'm just saying, I was looking what if

24

this guy maybe looking for me.

25

like that.

I think of stuff

So that's it, that's it, so I am

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Page 147

comfortable talking to you guys about that.

Other than that news

MR.

interview you talked about, has anybody confronted

you about this in a way that -No, I know around my

neighborhood and at work, everybody is looking at me

as a super star, you know.

at the store, have you been on TV.

to shake my hand so.

When I catch some guys


They be wanting

I see, you know, in that

10

community they see me as, I guess, I'm okay, you

11

know, so.

12

I do think of the Klu Klux Klan, I do

13

think of them.

You know what, a friend told me

14

yesterday, I don't know if it is true or not, I

15

doubt if it's true.

16

happened to Mike Brown's family at their house, like

17

their house got shot up or something.

He said, uh, that something

18

I'm asking?

19

That's what he said, he said that one of

20

Mike Brown's family's momma house or something got

21

shot up by the Klu Klux Klan or whatever, you know.

22

So that is what he tells me last night or whatever.

23

So I don't do much believe that, but still as far as

24

me, just in case because I don't have a lawyer or

25

whatever, all the information that I said on each

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Page 148

interview and stuff like that, so that's it, that's

it, you know.

Okay.

But I am comfortable, so I do

have your number, so anything else I'll make

contact.
Okay.

the recording.

Well, I'm going to end

It is 2:38 p.m.

(End of the recording.)

10

MS. ALIZADEH:

It is 11:35 and this is

11

Kathi Alizadeh, all 12 grand jurors are still

12

present, we just completed the tape recorded fourth

13

statement of

14

going to have

15

Immediately after this, immediately after finalizing

16

the tape,

17

ahead and call.

18

And at this point, I'm


go ahead and finalize the tape.

I have a witness that we are going to go

Typically we play the statement before the

19

witness, but I just, since he has been here,

I would

20

like to get him on and off so he doesn't have to

21

wait.

22

statement for you, which is about 30 minutes and

23

only one.

24

after this witness testifies and then after lunch

25

play that 30 minute statement of his.

And then after he testifies, we will play his

And, urn, then you break for lunch, maybe

And so at

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Page 149

this time we will end this recording and finalize

the disc.

(Recess)
MS. ALIZADEH:

All right.

This is Kathi

Alizadeh, all 12 grand jurors are in the room, as

well as Sheila Whirley who is with the St. Louis

County Prosecutor's Office, and at this time I will

ask the court reporter to pause the audio recording

and then we will have the witness identify himself

10

and then we will resume the audio recording for his

11

sworn statement.

12

WITNESS 10,

13

of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to

14

testify the truth, the whole truth, and

15

nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid,

16

deposes and says in reply to oral

17

interrogatories, propounded as follows, to-wit:

18
19
20
21

EXAMINATION
BY MS. ALIZADEH:
Q

Now, as I mentioned to you, well, let me

first have you state your name.

22

23

(Redacted)
And I told you before you came in here we

24

were going to record things, but that you were not

25

going to be recorded when you stated your name,

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Page 150

correct?

Correct.

And you believe me that I'm going to keep

my word on that?

Yes.

All right.

And then after the

introduction portion, the court reporter will begin

the recording again.

Witness Number 10, all right?

10

11

12

You will be referred to as

(Nods head.)
And the grand jurors will refer to

themselves by their grand juror number.

13

If, you know, sometimes I don't know

14

if there will be any reason why you would say your

15

own name,

16

your own name while we are recording because that's,

17

we are trying to protect your identity, okay?

I would try to remind you don't mention

18

Okay.

19

How old are you?

20

(Redacted)

21

22

23

24

25

And what's is your date of birth?


(Redacted)
Okay.

And whereabouts do you live?

(Redacted)
And did you grow up in

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Page 151

Yes.

Okay.

And are you familiar with the

Ferguson area?

Yes.

And what do you do for a living?

(Redacted)

How long have you been working for them?

10

I have been working for them for

Okay.

And what's the company you work for?

11
12
13
14

MS. ALIZADEH:

have you go ahead and start the audio recording.

15
16

, I will

At this time,

(Audio recording is started.)


Q

(By Ms. Alizadeh) Now, Witness Number 10

17

you have been sworn and you have just introduced

18

yourself to the jurors.

19

this is an investigation into the shooting death of

20

Michael Brown, correct?

And you understand that

21

Correct.

22

I talked to you on the phone yesterday

23

about coming forward and testifying today,

correct?

24

Correct.

25

And you know you are under oath and sworn

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Page 152

to tell the truth?

Yes.

You have been interviewed by the St. Louis

County Police Department as well as the FBI; is that

correct?

Correct.

But that was just one interview; is that

right?

Yes.

10

Have you ever been on television or gone

11

before the media?

12

No.

13

Have you done any other interviews whether

14

it be with law enforcement or anybody in the

15

entertainment or media industry?

16

No.

17

And so other than that statement that you

18

made previously to the County Police and the FBI, is

19

this really only the second time where you've been

20

asked to answer questions about what happened on

21

that day?

22

Correct.

23

Okay.

So Witness Number 10, can you tell

24

me on August 9th of this past year, a little over a

25

month ago, were you still working for the company

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that you identified at that time?

No,

Okay.

I was actually doing a side job.


So this was something on your own

that you were doing?

Correct.

And were you working by yourself that day

7
8

or were you with anyone else?


A

I was working by myself.

Okay.

10
11

13

14

No.

15

It is

16

in that

17

for me to do.

19

that

you were working at?

12

18

So was it a

doing just

Okay.

being there
that they asked

So what kind of work were you

doing, was it indoor work or outdoor work at this

20

21

Indoor.

22

Was it work you are familiar with,

23

like

and stuff like that?

24

25

And so you said that was the

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Page 154

you had ever been at that

Correct.

When were you previously at that

I believe in

Okay.

Yes, yes.

And did you know the name of the

, maybe.

So

before?

No.

10

And the day on August 9th when you were

11

working there, was there anyone at

12

13

Yes

14

And is that just

15

there?

16

17
18

No, it was
and the original

that once before I

seen once before.

19

20

Okay.

So the original

that was

21

22

23

that was

that

, was that

there?

Was the

was

that you know of?

24

I'm not sure.

25

Okay.

Did you have any interaction with

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Page 155

No.

Okay.

About what time of day did you get

to that

Urn,

I arrived roughly around

In the morning?

Yes.

And do you remember the address of that


?

10

No,

11

So are you familiar with the Ferguson

13

Yes.

14

And how did you get to that

12

I'm not sure.

area?

I mean,

that

15

day?

you don't have to start like where you

16

are starting at home, but did you get to that

17

residence off of West Florissant?

18

Yes.

19

Okay.

20
21

So from West Florissant, what

street did you turn onto?


A

Let me back that up.

No,

I actually

22

didn't get onto the street off West Florissant,

23

actually took

24
25

there is a
back way off

you can take to get to

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Page 156

that street.

3
4

Okay.

Is the

near the Canfield

Green Apartment Complex?


A

Yes,

Now,

5
6

I might ask you to stand up here

Witness Number 10.

marked as GJ for Grand Jury Exhibit Number 25, which

is a map.

10

And this is an exhibit that I've

I showed you this map right before you

came in to testify; is that right?

11

Yes.

12

Okay.

And are you familiar,

do you

13

recognize the streets or the layout as being streets

14

that are in the Canfield Green Apartment Complex?

15

Yes.

16

Can you see

17

where you were

working that day?

18

Yes.

19

Can you point to it so the jurors can see?

20

21

And the number where you are pointing is

23

Yes.

24

Okay.

( Indicating)

22

25

So does this

face, now, if

this Canfield Drive, does the

face Canfield

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Page 157

Drive?

Yes.

And is this a

Yes.

Is the

Yes.

All right.

off of Canfield Drive?

So did you have your, you can

sit down now, thanks.

9
10

Did you have your own vehicle that


day?

11

Yes.

12

What kind of vehicle were you in?

13

14

And with your type of work, do you have

15

things that you keep in that

16
17

Correct.

18

Okay.

19
20

And so you said that you were doing

work that day, would you have occasion


to have to come outside while you were working?

21

Yes.

22

And where was your

23

It was parked in the

24

towards the

25

parked?
, front face

So you pulled straight into the

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Page 158

and the nose of your vehicle is facing the

Yes.

Okay.

around

incident that we are here to testify about?

And from the time you got there

that day, did you ever leave before the

No.

So from

until something happened, was

there anything else memorable about that morning?

No.

10

And then something happened that you know

11

why you are here to testify about.

12

narrate for the jurors what is the first thing that

13

you heard or saw that drew your attention?

14

Can you just

Well, first thing I saw was,

15

outside

16

I was just finishing up the job.

17

get

18

walking down the street closer to the curb, not on

19

the sidewalk and my initial thought was with me

20

being aware of my surroundings, they were walking

21

towards me.

22

big guy right there, and speaking on Mike Brown.

23
24
25

to get

I came

that I needed.
I came outside to

and I seen Mike Brown and his friend

My initial thought was wow, that is a

So let me stop you, did you know Mike

Brown before that day?


A

No.

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Page 159

Had you ever seen him before?

No.

And the other person that was with him,

how would you describe him?

Short.

I just recognize,

I really picked

up on and drew in and focused on Mike Brown because

he was such a big guy and, urn, the only thing I can

recall on his friend he was short, had dreads and

with the color dye in his dreads and that was pretty

10

much it.

11
12

So his short dreads were like tipped

color; is that right?

13

Yes, yes.

14

Okay.

And so when you first saw them,

15

were they walking like in the direction of the

16

apartment complex or out of the complex?

17
18

complex.

19
20

They were walking in the direction of the

So they were walking this direction

towards the complex?

21

Yes.

22

And at this point, when you first saw

23

them, were you near your

24
25

the

Yes,

I was actually in the back door of

, urn, where it is closer to the sidewalk.

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Page 160

And they were just coming up upon me and that's when

I, me being aware of my surroundings,

in on Mike Brown and his friend coming up close to

me.

6
7
8

9
10

I just focused

And so when you first saw them then, were

they closer to West Florissant or were they past the


?

They were closer, like really probably I

would give it maybe within 10, 15 yard range of me.

And do you remember, other than their

11

sizes, do you remember anything about their clothing

12

that drew your attention?

13

Yes,

I remember Mike Brown, he had on flip

14

flops, black, and his socks really drew attention.

15

They were bright neon yellow with, it appeared to be

16

marijuana symbols on them.

17
18

19
20

Okay.

Anything else that you recall

noticing about either one of them?


A

Mike Brown had a St. Louis Cardinal hat

on, red St. Louis Cardinal hat.

21

Okay.

22

That was pretty much it.

23

Did you notice, were either of them

24
25

carrying anything?
A

No,

didn't notice that.

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Page 161

Okay.

Did you notice them doing anything

like with each other, were they interacting in a way

that drew your attention?

other.

No, they were just talking amongst each

So other than noticing, like you said, you

are aware of your surroundings when you are working,

so you see these two guys about 10, 15 feet or

yards,

I can't remember?

10

Yards, yards.

11

10 or 15 yards walking in your direction,

12

did you feel threatened by their presence at all?

13

I didn't feel threatened,

I just, I don't

14

know,

15

ready for,

16

happens instead of being a surprise to me.

17

I was just aware of my surroundings and just

I'd rather be ready for anything that

So you noticed that this one guy, and you

18

now know the bigger guy's name is Michael Brown,

19

correct?

20

Correct.

21

Have you ever learned who the small,

22

shorter guy was?

23

Yes, through the media.

24

Okay.

25

And so what do you know his name to

be?

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Page 162

It is Mr. Johnson,

I believe.

And so when you, when you saw them, did

they just continue to walk in your direction down

the street?

Yes.

Did they stop and talk to you at all?

No.

Did you wave at them or did you know if

you made eye contact with them at all?

10

No.

11

So did they pause or stop at all?

12

No.

13

So they just continued to walk down the

14

street?

15

Correct.

16

Did it appear that they were walking

17

casually, leisurely, in other words, or did they

18

appear to be in a hurry?

19

Just casual walking.

20

And at this point you said they were in

21

the street?

22

Yes, closer to the curb.

23

Close to the curb, but still in the

24
25

street?
A

Still in the street, yes.

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Page 163

Are there sidewalks at that location by

Yes, yes.

And so they are in the street, but closer

the

to the curb?

Yes.

Were they walking in,

guess what I'm

going to say, the correct lane of traffic.

our country and you are driving on a two way street

10

So in

you stay to the right?

11

Uh-huh.

12

So were they on the right side or were

13

they walking like against the traffic?

14

No, they were walking with the traffic.

15

Okay.

And so how long did you see them or

16

have them in your sight before you didn't see them

17

any more?

18

Urn,

would say within maybe a minute or

19

less.

20

retrieving my tools to go back in the

21

it up.

22

into the

23
24
25

Like I said,

I was just out getting, out

After they passed me, that's when I went

Okay.

So you took your

whatever, and went into the


A

to wrap

or
?

Yes.

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When is the next time you come outside?

I forgot something, to get something out.

I went out to get something else from the

would say it was maybe within a two minute time

span.

7
8
9

10

And what did you see or hear when you came

out the second time?


A

Well, when I came out the second time, the


is -- I guess I use the

way the view of the


pointer?

11

Sure, you can use that.

12

My

is parked actually right here.

13

The front door of the

facing the street.

14

came out of the

15

towards the

16

because I did not drive all the way up

and when I came out walking


, this is still open right here

17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

So my view of sight as seeing the


police car right.
Q

If you need to get up to look at the names

or anything, feel comfortable to do that.


A

Okay.

Police car was right about here.

(indicating)
Q

Okay.

And so if Canfield Drive,

describe that as a horseshoe,

I will

is that fair to say?

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Page 165

Yes.

The police car was like right in between

the two legs of the horseshoe?

Correct.

Which direction was it facing?

It was facing towards me.

So it was facing West Florissant?

Yes.

And was the car, police vehicle moving or

10

was it still when you saw it?

11

It was still, it was at a slight slant.

12

Okay.

13

And so what then did you see

happen?

14

I seen Mike Brown was leaned over inside

18

No.

20

him?

21

No.

22

You just see Mr. Brown?

23

I just see Mr. Brown inside the police

24

officer's window.

It appeared as some sort of

25

confrontation was taking place.

After that, that

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took place for seconds,

I'm not sure how long.

know that it appeared that some confrontation was

taking place.

And one shot, the first shot was let

loose and after the first shot, Mike Brown came out

of the window and took off running.

With that happening,

I thought

instantly because the police officer didn't

immediately react on how I would have thought it

10

would have went down.

11

get out of his car and chase after Mike Brown.

12

Where he didn't immediately

So my initial thought was that wow,

13

did I just witness this young guy kill a police

14

officer.

15

So after that, Mike Brown ran some

16

distance, the police officer exited his vehicle with

17

his weapon drawn, pursuing Mike Brown, and I would

18

say Mike Brown, he stopped right here.

19

turning into this driveway right here, but he

20

stopped right here.

21

He was

The officer was already in pursuit of

22

him.

He stopped.

He did turn, he did some sort of

23

body gesture,

24

it was a body gesture.

25

never put his hands up after he did his body

I'm not sure what it was, but I know

And I could say for sure he

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gesture, he ran towards the officer full charge.

The officer fired several shots at

him and to give an estimate, I would say roughly

around five to six shots was fired at Mike Brown.

Mike Brown was still coming towards

the officer and at this point I'm thinking, wow, is

this officer missing Mike Brown at this close of a

range.

Mike Brown continuously came forward

10

in the charging motion and at some point, at one

11

point he started to slow down and he came to a stop.

12

And when he stopped, that's when the officer ceased

13

fire and when he ceased fired, Mike Brown started to

14

charge once more at him.

15

the officer returned fire with, I would say, give an

16

estimate of three to four shots.

17

Mike Brown finally collapsed right about even with

18

this driveway.

19

When he charged once more,

And that's when

(indicating)
And during this whole time there was

20

a blue Monte Carlo parked almost right where that

21

car is while this altercation was taking place.

22

And the car drove around and stopped

23

right here and when Mike Brown collapsed in the

24

street, that's when his friend came out, I don't

25

know out of what direction he came from.

All I know

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is I seen him run across from in front of the squad

car and he ran across and he stopped like evenly

with the car that was parked right here and yelled,

"he just killed him,

he just killed him."

I'm not sure if he was speaking with

the people that were in the car or if he knew them.

He never leaned over to address them, he just yelled

it.

fields of Canfield.

After he yelled it, he ran off through the back

10

All right.

Now,

I'm going to start at the

11

beginning and we are going to kind of go through

12

this a little bit and I'm going to ask you more

13

detailed questions to clarify.

14
15

So from the time that you came


outside, and you said you were at the back of your

16

17

When I first seen Mike Brown.

18

Okay.

19

exactly were you then?

20
21

The second time you came out, where

the

I was in front,
in front of the

actually, at the corner of


in front of my

22
23
24
25

Did you change your position during this

entire scenario?
A

No.

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Page 169

Like did you run down towards the street

or anything?

No.

Did you run out into the street?

No.

So you just stayed where you were?

Yes.

And from where you were, did you have a

line of sight where you could see, you described

10

Michael Brown as actually coming to a point where he

11

was almost turning onto Copper Creek Court?

12

Yes.

13

Could you see that from where you were?

14

Yes.

15

So when you first look down that street,

16

you said you saw Michael Brown in the officer's

17

window?

18

Correct.

19

So describe for the jurors how, what you

20
21

mean by that?
A

Half of his body, his feet was still

22

planted on the ground, his upper body was inside the

23

window in a leaning motion inside the window, his

24

upper body was inside.

25

Now so is that the first thing you see

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when you look that he's already got his upper body

inside the car?

Yes.

So anything that happened before that, you

didn't

never seen it.


witness?

Did you hear tires squealing

or anything?

No.

10

Anybody screaming or yelling?

11

No.

12

Okay.

So when you saw that, what did you

13

see, could you see into the windshield of the

14

officer's car?

15
16

No,

I could just see him leaned over

inside the officer's car.

17

So who's him?

18

Mike Brown.

19

Okay.

20

the window?

21

Yes.

22

His shoulders?

23

Yes.

24

His upper body?

25

Yes.

And so you said his head was inside

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Page 171

1
2

Okay.

And could you see the officer from

that vantage point?

No.

car?

Not really, no.

Can you see was the vehicle moving at all?

No.

Was Mike Brown moving at all?

10

It appeared to be.

11

Okay.

And can you describe,

I don't want

12

to put the words in your mouth,

13

describe what you saw when you say it appeared to be

14

that he was moving?

15

I want you to

It appeared to be some sort of

16

confrontation taking place in the vehicle.

17

couldn't make it out,

18

within that time span within that vehicle.

19

know is that it just looked out of the norm with

20

somebody being leaned over inside the police

21

officer's car.

22

Okay.

I couldn't say who did what

So did you hear anything,

All I

like

23

yelling, were they yelling at each other or anybody

24

yelling?

25

No.

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Page 172

Okay.

So I can be clear on this,

is it

that you didn't hear anything or there wasn't

yelling?

I didn't hear anything.

Okay.

And so you believed there was an

altercation, is it a physical altercation or just a

verbal altercation?

9
10

For me I would think it was a physical

with being, him being inside the vehicle.


Q

Okay.

And so, and then you said that went

l I o n for a few seconds?


12

Yes.

13

And then you heard a gunshot?

14

Yes.

15

Have you heard a gunshot before?

16

Yes.

17

And you recognize that sound as a gunshot?

18

Yes.

19

And how many gunshots did you hear at that

20

point?

21

One.

22

And then what did you say Mike Brown did

23
24
25

at that point?
A

At that point, he exited, he took hisself

out of the vehicle, removed hisself from the vehicle

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Page 173

and ran towards the complex, deeper into the

complex.

So at the time that you heard that single

gunshot, was Michael Brown's upper body, as you

described, inside the police vehicle?

Yes.

And so when he, how long after that shot

does his body come out of the vehicle?

Almost immediately.

10

Okay.

And then how long after his body

11

comes out of the vehicle does he turn and start to

12

run?

13

Immediately.

14

And then you said that it took sometime

15

longer than you would have expected before the

16

officer got out of his vehicle?

17

Yes.

18

And can you give me just in your best

19

estimate, are we talking seconds or minutes?

20

No, seconds, maybe 10 to 15 seconds.

21

Okay.

22

And do you remember what kind of

vehicle this is?

23

Yes, it is a truck,

24

like style,

25

I think maybe a Tahoe

suv.

A bigger SUV?

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Page 174

Yeah.

And so when the officer got out of his

vehicle, did he get out from the driver's door?

Yes.

And did he shut the driver's door do you

recall or did he leave it open?


don't recall that.

And did you, did it appear to you, when

9
10

you saw Mike Brown turn and run away, did you see
any blood?

11

No.

12

Did it appear to you in any way that he

13

was somehow injured, Mike Brown?

14

No.

15

Okay.

When the officer gets out of his

16

vehicle, did it look to you as if he was injured in

17

any way?

18

No.

19

Okay.

And so how long, and you said now

20

when he gets out of the vehicle, he has already got

21

his gun drawn?

22

Yes.

23

And when you say gun drawn,

24
25

you mean out

of his holster?
A

Yes.

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Page 175

In his hand?

Yes.

And do you recall which hand?

His right hand.

And when he first gets out of the vehicle,

how long before he then starts to pursue, as you

said, Michael Brown?

He immediately starts to pursue.

And so as he begins to pursue him, can you

10

describe his pace?

11

running, correct?

You said Michael Brown was

12

Correct.

13

And how would you describe the officer's

15

Running.

16

And was he, what was he doing with his gun

14

17

pace?

as he was running?
Just carrying as he was running towards

18

19

Mike Brown.

20

Okay.

Can you stand up for a second and

21

show me where, if you use your right hand and make

22

like a gun thing with your right hand.

23

when he was running, how was he, hand running, how

24

was that gun?

25

Like in a running,

How was he,

just as you run

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Page 176

1
2
3

normally.
Q

Okay.

So he wasn't walking with the gun

pointed in the direction of Michael Brown?

No.

Or pointed in the direction of Michael

Brown?

No.

Okay.

You can sit back down.


And so when the officer started

10

running after Michael Brown, can you give me an

11

estimate as to how far Michael Brown was ahead of

12

the officer, in other words, he got a little bit of

13

a head start, correct?

14

Correct.

15

How far was he in front of the officer

16
17

when the officer started running?


A

I would say the police car is right here,

18

so Mike Brown maybe was about this far before the

19

officer exited his vehicle and within that time I

20

would say the officer maybe was here when Mike Brown

21

stopped there.

22

Okay.

So you initially describe that when

23

the officer got out of his vehicle, Mike Brown was

24

close to where this like, this car is on this map?

25

Yeah,

I would say.

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Page 177

More around Caddiefield Road?

Yes.

Okay.

And then the officer immediately

pursues him and does Michael Brown continue to run

down Canfield?

Correct.

And then does the officer close the gap or

do they remain, you know, do they remain that

distance apart or does the officer close the gap?

10

He starts to close the gap when Mike Brown

11

stops right here.

12

right at the D, for drive.

13
14

And I would say the officer is


(indicating)

Did you hear or see the officer fire his

weapon as Mike Brown was running away?

15

No.

16

Do you know,

I don't want you to guess,

17

other than maybe if you observed something that

18

caused you to assume, but do you know why Mike Brown

19

stopped and turned around?

20

No,

I'm not sure.

That is something that

21

I wrestle with to this day,

I'm not sure.

I'm not

22

sure if he knew the people that was in that car and

23

he thought maybe he had time to go back to wrestle

24

with this officer.

25

around and not give himself up.

To this day, why would he turn

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And so during the time the officer is

running after him, do you hear the officer saying

anything?

No.

And do you hear Mike Brown saying

anything?

anything.

9
10

No.

I'm at a distance where I don't hear

All I can do is just see what's going on.


So you're not saying that there wasn't

anything said, you just didn't hear anything?

11

Correct.

12

Okay.

And so now you testified that when

13

Mike Brown gets to around the corner, or the corner

14

of Canfield Drive and Copper Creek Court is where he

15

turns around; is that right?

16

Yes.

17

And does he, the whole time before he

18

turns around, is he running the whole time?

19

Yes.

20

Running with his back to where the officer

22

Correct.

23

And then you say he turns around and what

21

is?

24

does the officer do when Michael Brown stops and

25

turns around?

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He stops.

So at that point, are they still the same

3
4

5
6

distance or is it a little closer gap?


A

The officer is right there, Mike Brown

stops right there.


Q

(indicating)

And so you indicated that the officer was

right about where the D or the abbreviation for

drive on Canfield Drive would be?

Correct.

10

And Mike Brown, you indicated, was maybe

11

in the grassy area or even on the sidewalk?

12

Correct.

13

At the corner of Copper Creek Court and

14

Canfield Drive?

15

Yes.

16

Okay.

And then what did you see happen

17

next after Mike Brown turned around, where were his

18

hands?

19

Down by his side.

20

Now, you indicate that he did some kind of

21

body gesture?

22

Correct.

23

And so, of course, you know that this has

24
25

been a point that people have talked about,


A

correct?

Yes.

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Page 180

Can you describe for them what you mean

when you said you saw him do a body gesture.

need to stand up to demonstrate,

too?

If you

you can do that

I can't say for sure what sort of body

gesture,

I cannot recall fully.

All I know is it

was not in a surrendering motion of I'm

surrendering, putting my hands up or anything,

not sure.

I'm

If it was like a shoulder shrug or him

10

pulling his pants up,

11

want to speculate things and that's what I have to

12

say for that.

13

Okay.

I'm not sure.

I really don't

So turn, Mike Brown turns around,

14

makes that gesture, then how long before he then

15

moves in the direction of the officer?

16
17

Immediately after he did his body gesture,

he came for force,

full charge at the officer.

18

And full charge,

19

Correct.

20

And was he,

21

I guess, is running?

could you hear him say

anything or make any noise?

22

No.

23

And is it because you were so far away you

24

didn't hear anything or you saying that there was no

25

noise?

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Page 181

1
2
3
4

No,

I was so far away I could not hear

anything.
Q

Okay.

And let me ask you this, how is

your vision?

Pretty good.

Okay.

No.

And how about your hearing, is that pretty

Do you wear glasses or contacts?

good as well?

10

Yes.

11

All right.

And so as you then see Mike

12

Brown begin to charge at the officer, how far does

13

he get before you said the officer fires a number of

14

shots?

15

The officer is right here.

I would say

16

Mike Brown gets to right there, even with the car

17

before the officer starts to fire.

18

Okay.

And just for the record, when you

19

say even with the car, we are talking about the car

20

that's on this map?

21

Yes.

22

That's in the map, it is just a random

23

vehicle that happen to be on that street when they

24

took this picture, correct?

25

Correct.

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That car wasn't actually there that day?

No.

Now, you have talked about there being a

car in that vicinity?

Correct.

Okay.

But we're just talking about the

car that's on the map?

Yes.

So you say Mike Brown got about even with

10

that white car that's on the map?

11

Yes.

12

And then how many shots did you think you

13

heard?

14

Urn, five to six shots.

15

All right.

16

And could you see the officer

with his gun in his hand?

17

Yes.

18

Are you sure it was the officer that was

19

firing?

20

Yes.

21

And was he firing in the direction of Mike

22

Brown?

23

Yes.

24

And then you said at that point does Mike

25

Brown continue to go forward or does he stop at that

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Page 183

point?

He continues to come forward.

And you made mention,

I'm not sure if it

was at that point, is it at this point that you

thought oh, my God, he's missed him at that close

range?

Yes.

So when you heard those five or six shots,

9
10

did you see any blood on Mike Brown that you could
see?

11

No.

12

Did you see him react in any way that

13

might make you think that he was hit,

14

know,

like, you

flinching or anything?

15

It was more kind of a flinch,

16

Okay.

17

It was more of a flinch and, urn, with my

18

thoughts of,

19

thinking if you get shot, you are going to go down.

20

With those multiple shots and he was still standing,

21

that's the reason why I thought he was missing.

22
23

yes.

I thought he was missing him because me

Okay.

And then, but you said he continued

to come?

24

Correct.

25

Did he slow his pace or did he, was he

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Page 184

1
2

still at a charge?
A

He gradually slowed his pace.

And it

became, it came to a stop and when he stopped, the

officer ceased fire and he began to charge once

more, and that's when the officer with fatal rounds.

So when he became, when he stopped, about

how many seconds or fraction of seconds do you think

it was before he began to charge again?

I would give it maybe two seconds.

10

Okay.

And then how far did you get on

11

that, after stopping and then he's charging again,

12

how far did he get about, if you can estimate feet,

13

that's fine,

14

may have taken, that's fine too?

or if you want to say how many steps he

15

Maybe five to six steps.

16

And then when he, you said, and then the

17

officer began shooting again?

18

Correct.

19

And about how many rounds do you think you

20

heard then?

21

Three to four.

22

You said that was the fatal rounds, did

23

you see Mike Brown then

24

Collapse.

25

-- collapse onto the pavement?

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Correct.

And did you, after he collapsed, did the

officer continue to fire?

No.

And did you see the officer, did he go up

6
7

to Mike Brown's body at that point?


A

At that point, something else had caught

my attention, Mr. Johnson caught my attention at

that time when he ran across the street.

10

Okay.

11

Okay.

12

At that point you are not necessarily

13

looking at the officer and Mike Brown, you are

14

focusing on Mr. Johnson?

15

Correct.

16

And you recognized him as the shorter guy

17

who had been with Mike Brown that you had seen

18

earlier?

19

Yes.

20

And so you said he ran around like in

21

front of the police vehicle?

22

Correct.

23

And then ran toward this area where you

24
25

said you had seen this car?


A

Yes.

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Page 186

And this was a car that had been over

Yes.

And had pulled around this horseshoe

here?

driveway, correct?

Correct.

Around Building Number 18?

Correct.

And you heard Dorian Johnson say what?

10

"He just killed him, he just killed him."

11

Okay.

12

the back of the complex, did you ever see him again?

13

No.

14

Okay.

15
16

Were you, what did you do after you

saw that?
A

After I

17
18

And then you said he then ran into

saw that, I went into the


I

what I

was working at, and told the

just witnessed and stayed in for maybe

19

minutes speaking with

20

back out and that's when I

21

the scene.

22
23

, and I

came

seen they were taping off

So by the time you came back out, other

police officers were there?

24

Yes.

25

Was the police officer who was involved in

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the shooting, was his car still in the street?

Yes.

And about, was it all Ferguson vehicle's

at that point or was County already there?

Ferguson.

And then did you stand outside and kind of

7
8

watch what was going on for a while?


A

Yeah, when I

taping off the scene.

came back out, they were


I

came back,

walked down

10

here to right there where the body was pretty much

11

even with that street.

12

shock and speaking with another resident.

13

know if

And I was just, just in

was a resident, another

I don't

that was out

was just
17

happened?

18

Correct.

19

You didn't know that person?

20

No.

21

Did you later learn who it was?

22

No.

23

Have you ever seen

24

No.

25

Now, are you aware,

again?

I mean, did you notice

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that day that there were people with cell phones

that were like filming or taping, not taping, we

don't use tape, but recording what was going on

while, the aftermath I'll call it?

Yes.

Now, at some point in this investigation

have officers involved in the investigation that you

talked to, did they talk to you about whether or not

10

No.

11

Okay.

12
13

14

15
16

17
18
19

20
21

Yes.

22

And is it the aftermath, so it is after

23

the shooting?

24

25

Yes.

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Page 189

Yes.

All right.

5
6

8
9

10
11
12

I did contact the FBI to figure out,


urn, what precautions I needed to take.
Q

Okay.

So now you mention that you talked

13

to the police and gave a tape recorded interview

14

after this incident, correct?

15

16

Yes.

17
18
19

20

No.

21
22
23

24

Correct.

25

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Page 190

Correct.

So when is the first time you talked to a

police officer about having seen this?

Monday, Monday.

So this happened on a Saturday, correct?

Yes.

And immediately after you go back outside,

there is other officers there?

Uh-huh.

10

Why didn't you go up to an officer then

11
12

and say, hey,


A

I saw the whole thing or most of it?

Because when I went down on the scene

13

afterwards, speaking with

14

speaking to.

15

on what I had witnessed to

16

say giving

17

because just observing the chaotic, how it got so

18

chaotic so quick, and different point of views on,

19

it didn't add up to what I actually witnessed.

20

that I was

I wasn't giving a thorough accounting


, I was,

I couldn't

just a glimpse of what I witnessed

I felt very uncomfortable and I say I

21

would probably estimate I was down on the scene

22

maybe five to ten minutes.

23

everything and how the uproar became about so

24

quickly.

25

And just observing

I began to walk back towards the

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Page 191

that I was working at and those

that have their video recordings out, their

camcorder out and they addressed to me, addressed

me,

And I

proceeded on walking past them.

And that's when

they turned towards me and asked me

And continued walking past and at

10

this point they are

with the camera

11

still, and they became violent and, urn, one of the

12
13
14
15
16
17
18

That's

19

because that's the way I felt at that time because

20

with everybody down there feeling like, hey, he had

21

his hands up.

22

actually went down and what I saw.

23

A lot of people didn't see what

So I then turned and walked back

24

towards

and that's when they started

25

to yell racial slurs at me and it was just, it was

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Page 192

just ignorant.

I felt uncomfortable, I fully felt

uncomfortable when I actually did go forward to the

police station because, urn,

after I seen all the rioting.

the situation.

I first called in Sunday


I just felt bad about

I knew that I needed to come forward

to let the truth be told.

rioting,

And after seeing the

I called St. Louis County Police, I just

10

called the 911 and they took down my information

11

and, urn, Monday morning I just felt like it wasn't,

12

I was just going to be pushed to the side.

13

felt like I needed to do more.

14

So I

I called Ferguson Police Department,

15

I had to leave a message there and I still wasn't

16

settled about it.

17

So I went down to the police station

18

and I felt uncomfortable then just walking past all

19

the protesting that was going on, but I knew it was

20

the right thing to do.

21

situation, but I know God put me in this situation

22

for a reason.

23
24

It is an unfortunate

Now, Witness Number 10, you said that when

you walked back, there were

25

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Yes.

Were these, did these

appear to

be people that just lived in the area or were they

like reporters?

9
10
11

They appeared to be people that lived in

the area.
Q

Okay.

And did you know

had you seen them before?

12

No.

13

Ever seen them since?

14

No.

15

Have you seen any recording of that

16

incident where they had appeared to be recording

17

you, have you seen that on the internet or anything?

18

No,

19
20

21
22

23
24
25

Okay.

The person you were talking to

earlier was not recording?

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Page 194

No, he was not.

It was somebody else?

Yes.

5
6

Correct.

So when you were down after the shooting

and the crowd begin to build, could you hear people

saying words to the effect, he had his hands up, the

10

police killed him, they didn't need to shoot him,

11

that kind of stuff?

12

Correct.

13

And is that the kind of things that you

14

were hearing that you said made you feel

15

uncomfortable?

16

Correct.

17

And you came forward because you felt you

18
19

had to do the right thing?


A

20
21
22

Correct.
MS. ALIZADEH:

Anybody at this point,

Sheila?
A

I came forward to bring closure to the

23

family and also for the police officer because, urn,

24

with me knowing actually what happened, urn, and I

25

know it is going to be a hard case and a hard thing

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Page 195

to prove with so many people that's saying the

opposite of what I actually seen.

bring closure to the family not thinking that hey,

this is, they got away with murdering my son.

I just wanted to

I do know that there is corruption in

some police departments and I believe that this was

not the case.

the family.

Now, Number 10, do you live in Ferguson?

10

No.

11

Okay.

12

And I just wanted to bring closure to

Have you ever had any experiences

with the Ferguson Police Department?

13

No.

14

Do you know any Ferguson police officers?

15

No.

16

Did you know this police officer that was

17

involved in the shooting?

18

No.

19

Did you know Michael Brown's family or any

20
21

of his relatives before this?


A

Urn,

yes,

I did.

It came about when I was

22

standing outside during the aftermath,

I recognized

23

his stepfather, Michael Brown's stepfather.

24

moment it didn't really sink in,

25

recognized him at that moment, but it came about

At that

I thought I

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Page 196

when I seen it in the papers, his name and that just

confirmed that was him.

and talked to him or anything.

All right.

But I haven't reached out

Michael Brown's stepfather,

would you consider him a friend of yours?

No.

You just know him?

Yes.

And you haven't talked to any of the

10

family members of Michael Brown since this happened?

11

12

13

No.
(By Ms. Whirley)

did you know him?

14

(Redacted)

15

MS. ALIZADEH:

16

MS. WHIRLEY:

17

MS. ALIZADEH:

Well, let me ask it another

Hang on a second.

Did you

have something?

20
21

Just hang on a second.

way.

18

19

With the stepfather, how

If you will excuse me,

I don't know if you

have a question you want to ask me?

22

MS WHIRLEY:

Knowing the stepfather, was

23

there a bad relationship or anything negative about

24

that.

25

No.

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Page 197

MS WHIRLEY:

Okay.

Now,

could you put a

mark, not necessarily a mark, but use that pointer

and show us one more time where you were when the

first time you saw shots fired?


on the corner.

there?

Yes.

And shots were being fired where, show us

10

that on the map?

11
12

(By Ms. Whirley) And you were standing

The truck was right about here.

(indicating)

13

How far away would you say that distance

15

I would give it 50 to 75 yards.

16

Yards, okay.

14

is?

And when the officer first

17

got out of the car, you said, was his gun drawn or

18

not?

19
20

When he first got out of car,

yes, his

guns was already drawn.

21

His gun was drawn?

22

Yes.

23

As he ran pursuing Michael Brown, he was

24
25

not shooting,
A

I recall you saying that,

correct?

Yes, correct.

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Page 198

Michael Brown turns around and starts

charging him, you said that's when the shooting

started?

Correct.

You couldn't hear what they were saying?

No, ma'am.

When you say charge, could you demonstrate

what you saw?

Show us what you mean by charging?

(Indicating. )

10

Like running toward him quickly?

11

Yes,

12

Okay.

13

As a normal

14

You could see his hands?

15

Yes.

16

Did you ever see a weapon or anything?

17

No.

in a tackle motion charge.


What was he doing with his hands?

When he first ran from the car,

18

did, that's the only time I did hear something.

19

thought I heard something metallic hit the ground.

20

I'm not sure what it was, that's the only time I did

21

hear something.

22

Now, when did you hear that?

23

When Mike Brown came from out of the

24
25

vehicle and ran.


Q

Okay.

You could hear that, but you

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Page 199

couldn't hear what they were saying?

No.

And you never heard any conversation

between the officer and Mike Brown?

No.

So when he stopped after the first round

of gunfire and turned around, you said he charged

and then the officer shot again or was that the

first round once he charged?

10
11

car.

12
13

The first round was when he was in the

MS WHIRLEY:
A

Okay.

And after that, Mike Brown, he followed

14

pursuit of Mike Brown and Mike Brown stops and turns

15

and did some sort of body gesture and charged at the

16

officer.

17

took place.

18

And that's when the second firing session

MS WHIRLEY:

And after the first,

not the

19

first shot in the car, but when he charged him and

20

the shots were fired,

21

as if he might have been hit?

22

23
24
25

you said Mike Brown flinched

Correct.
MS WHIRLEY:

Okay.

But he still charged

in the same manner that you showed us?


A

He started, he like,

I don't know he was

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Page 200

flinching, but still in a charge motion.

2
3
4

MS WHIRLEY:
different?
A

It appeared to be a slight difference.


MS WHIRLEY:

5
6

Was it slower or any

Like maybe he was hit, that

was your impression?


A

Yes, but at that time I'm not sure.

thought he wasn't being hit because with me, with my

thoughts was if you are being hit that you are going

10

to fall or show some sort of I'm hit besides a

11

flinch.

12

or hit,

13

That appeared to me,

I don't know, dodging

I'm not sure.


MS. WHIRLEY:

And can you show us, you

14

said that after he charged him a second time, he was

15

charging slower that time, but still charging,

16

correct?

17

18

Correct.
MS. WHIRLEY:

You said he collapsed, Mike

19

Brown collapsed after that second round or shot,

20

don't mean the one in the car,

21

third round, third time he is shooting he collapsed?

22
23

I guess it is the

Correct.
MS WHIRLEY:

I don't want you to fallon

24

the ground or anything,

I want you to like show us

25

like what he was doing with his hands as he was

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Page 201

collapsing.

MS WHIRLEY:

9
10

Okay.

You didn't really, you

couldn't see his hands when he was collapsing?


A

I can't recall that.


MS WHIRLEY:

I just know he

collapsed.

I cannot recall that.

Okay.

I know he was coming in a charging motion

still and the final rounds were being fired within a


charging motion and that's when he collapsed.

11

MS WHIRLEY:

But you didn't see his hands

12

when he was collapsing or you don't remember seeing

13

his hands when he was collapsing.

14

I did not see that.

All I seen was the

15

charging motion and him being, coming as a threat.

16

And the final shots were fired and he collapsed,

17

that's all I seen was the collapse.


MS WHIRLEY:

18

Was there anything blocking

19

your vision of seeing his hands when he was

20

collapsing?

21

22
23
24
25

No.

MS WHIRLEY:

You just don't remember

seeing his hands?


A

No.

MS WHIRLEY:

Okay.

Can you show us on the

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Page 202

map how close you were to Dorian Johnson,

where you were and where Dorian Johnson was when he

said,

show us

"they killed him, they kill him."


A

Okay.

I was still right there at the

corner of the

Johnson came from somewhere over this way, and only

reason why I know that is because he had to cross

the street and it was in front of the squad car.

he came from over this way and

10

MS WHIRLEY:

And Dorian

(indicating)

And that's where he was, show

11

us, where was Dorian when he is saying,

12

him?"

13

14
15

Right there.
MS WHIRLEY:

16

So

"they killed

(indicating)
Right there.

Yes.
MS WHIRLEY:

Where was the police officer

17

and Mike Brown when they first started the pursuit,

18

the same general area?

19

20
21
22

Yes.
MS WHIRLEY:

But you couldn't hear Mike

Brown and the police officer saying anything?


A

No, that's because, Dorian, he was yelling

23

it, like he just seen his friend die and he was just

24

yelling it loud.

25

MS WHIRLEY:

And the police officer wasn't

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Page 203

1
2

yelling at Mike Brown as he was pursuing him?


A

MS WHIRLEY:

3
4

I'm not sure,

You couldn't hear anything?

No.
MS WHIRLEY:

I couldn't hear.

Okay.

6
7

MS WHIRLEY:

10
11

12

Yes.
MS WHIRLEY:

13

you saying?

14

Saying some stuff, what were

I was saying that, urn, he charged him, he

15

charged at him.

16

drawn on him and he charged at him and he shot at

17

him at least five to six times.

18

to be surprised when he asked who shot him,

19

the police did.

20
21

The officer already had his gun

MS WHIRLEY:

All right.

And the

seemed
I said

That's all I have

right now.

22

I have a couple

23

questions, of course,

You said that they

24

were violent, the

25

about it afterwards, that they became violent.

that were asking you


Did

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Page 204

they become violent towards you,

their actions?

in their words, in

Verbal.
Verbal.

Verbal.
Verbal?

6
7

Yes.
They called you names?

8
9

Yes.

10

You said you heard a

11

sound that was like metallic hitting the ground, you

12

don't know just because I know my friends,

13

know that anything hit the ground, that's just what

14

it sounded like to you?

15

you don't

Yes, correct.

16

When he was collapsing

17

you said you couldn't see his hands, that doesn't

18

mean you couldn't see his arms, correct?

19

tell the difference between him having his hands up?

20

You could

Correct.
And him having his arms

21
22

down.

23

doesn't mean you couldn't see where they were?

24
25

Just because you couldn't see his hands,

Correct.
Okay.

And you said

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Page 205

earlier that you didn't see anything in anyone's

hands as far as Mr. Johnson or Mr. Brown?

Correct, when I first saw him.

When you first saw them?

Yes.

6
7
8

But you also said it is


because you were focused on their
On their appearance.

9
10
11

On their appearance and


your surroundings?
Yes.

12

You're not saying that

13

they didn't have anything in their hand, you just

14

didn't see it?

15

Correct.

16

Okay.

17

If I

18

could dovetail off of

19

about the violence that was directed to you.

20

could ask you just a personal question, are you

21
22

25

If I

Yes.

23
24

's original question

You are, okay.


A

Yes.
And this is like bringing

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1
2

an extra level of conflict for you to come forward?


A

Urn, not really.

Within my

that's about it.

family's safety, that's about it.

family

They fear for my safety or our

You said that there were

some racial epithets directed towards you,

anything that you can, you feel comfortable telling

us that was directed to, what was said to you?

Urn, they said you

10

called me a

11

slurs.
Did you at any time,

if I

could ask, did you express the fact that you're

14

15

No.

16
17

, they
, and just racial

12
13

is there

You did not?


A

No,

I just ignored it and kept walking

18

because I didn't want it to just blow up to

19

something even more because it is already tension in

20

the air.

21
22
23

Okay, thank you.


A

No problem.
In your

24

opinion, let's go back to the times when Michael

25

Brown stopped and turned around and allegedly began

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to charge the police officer, is it in your opinion,

do you believe the police officer's life was

potentially in jeopardy at this point?

Yes.
Thank you.

5
MS. ALIZADEH:

Anyone else have a

question?

8
9

Could you
describe what vehicles were in the area while this

10

was going on, were there cars lined up behind the

11

police vehicle and you said that Dorian ran to a

12

vehicle that had been on the other side and then

13

drove around?

14

There was only one vehicle on the street

15

within that distance between where the incident took

16

place, and that was the vehicle, a little Monte

17

Carlo and it came around after,

18

the officer, before the officer fired,

19

fired, but I'm not sure at what point, I can

20

pinpoint at what point that they came around, but

21

they did drive around, come out of the, this curb

22

and drive around and stop right there.

23
24
25

I want to say when


I mean not

Okay, thank you.


MS. ALIZADEH:

to ask you.

Can I clarify, I just want

You said it was a Monte Carlo?

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MS. ALIZADEH:

3
4

Carlo?

Have you ever had a Monte

No.
MS. ALIZADEH:

11

Uh, yes.
MS. ALIZADEH:

10

Are you good about

recognizing makes and models of cars?

Correct.

When you say it was blue,

are we talking dark blue, baby blue, do you recall?


A

I cannot recall as far as the deep blue or

any of that,

12

I know it was a newer Monte Carlo.

MS. ALIZADEH:

And you saw, that's the

13

only car you remember seeing there is a blue Monte

14

Carlo?

15

16

Correct.
MS. ALIZADEH:

Okay.

17

Urn,

let's

18

go back to when you initially saw the struggle with

19

Michael Brown inside the car, where was Dorian or

20

could you tell where he was when this was going on?

21

No.

Like I said,

I did not see Dorian

22

Johnson, urn, after the fact,

after Michael Brown was

23

collapsed in the street, and that's when he came

24

across the street in front of the squad car and

25

stopped right about there and yelled that he just

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killed him.

That's the only time after first had

initial contact, well, not contact, but sight of

Dorian Johnson.

So did you ever see

anything in Michael Brown's hands or Dorian's hand,

I know you said initially when they came around the

house, you didn't see anything, but what about

during the struggle, did you ever see anything in

their hands?

10

No.

11
12
13

Okay.
heard one gunshot at the car?
A

Correct.
And the rest were --

14
15

Down.

16
17

Down the road or whatever?


A

18
19

And you said you

Yes.
MS. ALIZADEH:

Anyone else have any

questions?

20

So Witness Number 10, thank you for

21

appearing.

22

jury has additional questions for you, would it be

23

all right for me to contact you?

24
25

If at any time in the future this grand

Yes.
MS. ALIZADEH:

That will end the testimony

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of Witness Number 10.

(End of the testimony of Witness 10.)


MS. ALIZADEH:

This is Kathi Alizadeh, it

is 1:33 p.m. on September 23rd.

are all 12 present, as well as myself and Sheila

Whirley and the court reporter who is taking down

everything.

8
9

We had a witness who was here and in the


waiting room.

10

MS WHIRLEY:

11
12

The grand jurors

We did have one witness, and

is her name and we may play some of


that information because you had asked about

13

We were here, we were running behind and

14

she left.

15

get her back here and I'm not sure if she was

16

running too late for work or what, but we're going

17

to have to likely reschedule her because we also

18

have a 2:30 timeframe we are working with too.

19

I contacted, I tried to contact her to

So she's not going, you're not going to

20

hear from her, we were hoping to do it today.

21

light of that, what we are going to do is let you

22

hear the recording from

23

MS. ALIZADEH:

24

MS. WHIRLEY:

25

you.

In

Witness Number 10.


Witness Number 10, thank

And then if we have enough time, you will hear

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Page 211

s recorded statement and then when

see her, you will match the two together, all right.
MS. ALIZADEH:

All right.

So at this time

I'm going to pass out a transcript of an interview

that was conducted on August 11th by the County

Police Department and it is the interview of Witness

Number 10.

pause the audio recording that the court reporter is

doing right now while we are playing the statement.

10

The statement is contained on Grand Juror

11

And for that reason, again, we will

Number 24.

12

As soon as you say we are ready, we will

13

turn off the audio recording that is happening now

14

and play the recorded statement of Witness Number

15

10.

16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

Okay.

Would you turn off the audio

recording at this time.


(This is the recorded statement of Witness
Numb e r 1 0 . )
DETECTIVE

This is Detective

with the St. Louis County Police


Department's Bureau of Crimes Against Persons,
Also present with me is Detective
of the Bureau of Crimes Against
Persons and we are at the City of Ferguson Police

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Department in an interview room Mister, would you

say your name for the recorder, please?

WITNESS 10:

DETECTIVE

(Redacted)
Okay.

And (redacted)

obviously, you realize this is being recorded,

correct?

WITNESS 10:

DETECTIVE

Correct.
Okay.

And you're okay

Okay.

And this is in

with that?

10

WITNESS 10:

11

DETECTIVE

Yes.

12

reference to St. Louis County Complaint Number

13

14-43984 and Ferguson Police Department Complaint

14

Number 14-12391, which is an incident that occurred

15

on Canfield Drive on August 9th, 2014.

16
17

(Redacted), I'm going to get a little bit


of information from you here, okay?

18

WITNESS 10:

19

DETECTIVE

20

Correct.
Okay.

And spell your

last name?

21

WITNESS 10:

22

DETECTIVE

23

(redacted)

(Redacted)
Just like the

What is your date of birth?

24

WITNESS 10:

25

DETECTIVE

(Redacted)
What is your home

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Page 213

address?

WITNESS 10:

DETECTIVE

WITNESS 10:

DETECTIVE

WITNESS 10:

DETECTIVE

WITNESS 10:

DETECTIVE

10

WITNESS 10:

12

DETECTIVE

13

WITNESS 10:

14

DETECTIVE

(Redacted)
And where's that at?
(Redacted)
(Redacted)
(Redacted)
And what's your cell

(Redacted)
(Redacted)
Yes.
And your social

security number?

16

WITNESS 10:

17

DETECTIVE

18

WITNESS 10:

19

DETECTIVE

20

WITNESS 10:

21

DETECTIVE

22

(Redacted)

phone.

11

15

(Redacted)

(Redacted)
(Redacted)
(Redacted)
(Redacted)
Yes.
And you're employed

where.

23

WITNESS 10:

24

DETECTIVE

25

WITNESS 10:

(Redacted)
As a

Yes.

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Page 214

DETECTIVE

address for that?


WITNESS 10:

I don't,

Urn, this is the address, but

I'm not sure.


DETECTIVE

Is there a business

Okay.

You know a phone

number?

WITNESS 10:

DETECTIVE

WITNESS 10:

10

are at.

(Redacted)
(Redacted)
Right where the

Where, urn, say you get off of

11

DETECTIVE

12

WITNESS 10:

13

DETECTIVE

14

WITNESS 10:

there.
(Redacted)
Okay.
Right before you go down the

15
16

DETECTIVE

17

WITNESS 10:

18

DETECTIVE

19

WITNESS 10:

21

DETECTIVE

22

WITNESS 10:

24
25

Yeah.
Okay.

Urn, do you have

a phone number?

20

23

(Redacted)

see.

Is
For employer.
For -- for -- for

let me

Let me see if I can pull it up.


DETECTIVE

(Redacted)

What is

your middle initial?

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WITNESS 10:

DETECTIVE

WITNESS 10:

here.

(Redacted)
Okay.
I thought I had the office in

I ain't seeing it.

DETECTIVE

WITNESS 10:

DETECTIVE

That's okay.
All right.
Okay.

So, urn, we

received a call from Ferguson saying that you were

here and did you come here --

10

WITNESS 10:

11

DETECTIVE

12

WITNESS 10:

14

DETECTIVE

16
17
18
19
20

-- okay, okay.

You

came here on your own?

13

15

Yes, voluntarily.

Yes.
And who did you talk to

initially?
WITNESS 10:

Urn,

I'm not sure.

It's a

police officer outside.


DETECTIVE

Okay.

And what did you

tell that officer?


WITNESS 10:

I need to -- to speak with

21

someone about the, urn, ongoing investigation about,

22

urn, what happened, at Canfield to Mr. Brown.

23

DETECTIVE

Okay.

24

I'm assuming they escorted you

25

WITNESS 10:

So after that,

Yes.

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-- into the building

DETECTIVE

then and you -- you waited for us; is that right?

WITNESS 10:

DETECTIVE

Yes.
Okay.

Urn, would you

please retell, and I'm just going to set the

recorder over there.

your account of a, were you present when it happened

or-WITNESS 10:

10
11

Would you please just retell

Yes.

DETECTIVE

Okay.

Would you just

retell your account of what took place?

12

WITNESS 10:

Okay.

13

out,

14

where Canfield meets

15

The

was actually on the

16

would be,

I would be facing,

17

facing towards me and the

Urn, well,

I walked

I was working at a

right

on,

it

the police car would be

18
19

right there

20

DETECTIVE

So,

just so I

21

understand, uh, what you're saying, Canfield

22

Apartments, Canfield by in large runs east and west,

23

okay.

24

Canfield, you would run into West Florissant.

25

If you were to travel west, uh,

WITNESS 10:

out of, on

Okay.

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Page 217

DETECTIVE

Before you run into

West Florissant, you run into a

WITNESS 10:

DETECTIVE

area of

Correct.
So is that the area

that you were working on.


WITNESS 10:

Yes,

the

and going into Canfield,

I was working on the,

on your, if you were traveling east


would be on your

10
11

DETECTIVE

12

WITNESS 10:

So -The

that's, well,

13

the

14

Canfield.

15

and it's an

16

And the police, urn, as I was saying, I was going, I

17

was working at that

18

outside.

19

street on the same sidewalk I was on and --

20
21
22

considering you're going into


It would be the

and I walked

I seen the two young guys walking down the

DETECTIVE
couple things?

Can I clarify just a

Roughly what time was this?

WITNESS 10:

Roughly,

I want to say 8:40,

23

I mean not 8:40, 11:40, 11:40 is when that, when I

24

first seen these two guys.

25

was, wow that's a big dude because Mr. Brown, Mike

And my initial thought

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Brown.

My initial thought was he's a big guy.

tall and like stocky build, and that's it.


He -- he, they both walked past me.

took

outside

looked down the street and I seen the police car at

a slant and I seen Mr. Brown in the window of the

police car.

wrestling through the window.

10

went into

He's

I came back

to get some more stuff and I

It looked, it appeared as they were


And one gunshot had

let off and Mr. Brown took off running.

11

And my first thought was like, oh, my

12

gosh, did I actually just witness a police officer

13

being murdered because it took a while for the

14

police officer to get out of the car and pursue the

15

suspect.

16

And I want to say maybe six seconds, but

17

it seemed like it was forever after the -- the first

18

gunshot.

19

with his weapon drawn, pursuing Mr. Brown.

20

Mr. Brown was quite a distance and he stopped.

21

when he stopped, he didn't get down on the ground or

22

anything, he turned around and he did some type of

23

movement.

I never seen him put his hands up or

24

anything.

I can't recall the movement that he did.

25

I'm not sure if he pulled his pants up or whatever

So the police officer exited the vehicle

And

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he did, but I seen some type of movement and he

started charging towards the police officer.

The police officer then returned fire, not

returned fire, open fire on Mr. Brown.

to guess, the shots and, urn, the distance between

him and Mr. Brown, it would have to be five to

ten yards.

8
9

Urn, if I had

And the shots that were fired was four,


five or six shots fired, and Mr. Brown was still

10

standing up.

11

missing this guy this close, is he hitting him or

12

because Mr. Brown there was no reaction from him to

13

show that he was being hit.

14

Urn, and my thoughts was wow, he's

Urn, after that, Mr. Brown then paused,

15

he -- he -- he stopped running and when he stopped

16

running, the police officer stopped firing.

17

then Mr. Brown continued, started again to charge

18

towards him and after that, the police officer

19

returned fire and, urn, well, not returned, I'm using

20

the wrong term, he started to fire once more at him.

21

Urn, if I had to guess the rounds that were

And

22

fired then, it would be four to five more shots.

23

And after that, Mr. Brown collapsed and fell to the

24

ground.

25

DETECTIVE

Okay.

What happened

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then?

WITNESS 10:

Urn, what happened then after

that, urn,

Carlo, a newer model Monte Carlo two door.

was closer to the scene where the shooting was at,

that occurred.

left into the apartments and drove around the

apartment and then came and stopped.

I didn't see, it was, it was a blue Monte


Urn, it

They then drove off and made a -- a

And, urn, Mr. Brown's friend that he was

10

walking with earlier, I didn't see him the whole

11

time that, urn, this was all going on with a

12

confrontation with the police and the shooting and

13

everything.

14

At the end, after Mr. Brown had dropped,

15

and, urn,

16

and run across the street.

17

they -- they just killed him, they just killed him,

18

and he ran the back fields of Canfield, the back

19

open field.

20

I seen the, his friend come out of nowhere

And, urn,

And, urn, said that Dog,

I must say that also after the,

21

urn, confrontation, after the gunshot when Mr. Brown

22

did run,

I thought I heard something metal hit the

23

ground.

And I'm not sure what it was, but I thought

24

I heard something hit the ground.

25

And, urn, after that,

I believe, I'm not

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sure, urn, if I went in

to go tell the

people that I was working with that I just -- what I

witnessed.

the scene off and I decided,

closer to where the body was and I stayed down there

for maybe ten, five to ten minutes.

speaking with the

that was down there

on the scene.

what happened and

after me telling

And I came back out and they were taping


I went down there

I was telling

And I was

what happened and I'm hearing

10

everybody, their side of the story, oh, the police

11

officer shot that kid for no reason.

12

hands up.

13

He had his

And me knowing and seeing what actually

14

took place, that wasn't true.

15

different sides to the story, and every side it

16

wasn't true.

17

situation, so I decided to walk back to

18

was at originally at.

19

I felt uncomfortable in that


I

And, urn, while I was walking to the

20
21

And there was

had a video camera and they turned


towards me asking me, urn,

22
23

But I don't think they

24

heard me what I had told the

25

I responded as

earlier.

And

and just kept walking.

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Page 222

And they still on

me and saying, urn,

responded,

just still video recording


I

And after that, they -- they became, uh,

in an aggressive tone and urn, was saying,

7
8

urn,

just called me other

names, racial and racist slurs to me.

And that whole time, well, before they

10

yelled the racial slurs, I yelled, urn, back to them,

11

I said,

12
13

And after that,

I just left it and went on

my way.

14

DETECTIVE

Okay.

I'm going to go

15

back and just ask you a couple clarifying questions,

16

okay.

17
18
19
20
21
22

Urn, so,

I guess, so let's first start off,

who were you working with, uh, that day?


WITNESS 10:
And, urn,

I was working, urn, for

I'm not sure of

urn, that was there.

I was hired as a

to come in and do

23
24
25

DETECTIVE
were not working for

So will you, was, you


(redacted) that day?

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WITNESS 10:

DETECTIVE

No, no.
You were doing kind of

a side job?

WITNESS 10:

DETECTIVE

Yeah, doing a side job, yeah.


Okay.

And did you have

anybody with you that you were working with that

day?

WITNESS 10:

DETECTIVE

No.
Okay.

I guess when you

10

say you went in, oh, when you said you went in to

11

tell the people you were working with --

12

WITNESS 10:

13

DETECTIVE

14

Yeah.
-- you meant tell the

people--

WITNESS 10:

15

That -- that was the

16
17
18

DETECTIVE
were the

19
20

Who

Like I say, I'm not sure what

their names are.


DETECTIVE

Was it a female,

male?

23

WITNESS 10:

24

DETECTIVE

25

Okay.

there.
WITNESS 10:

21
22

I gotcha.

It was a
Okay.

And then, urn,

you said that you saw, uh, two guys walking down the

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street, right?

WITNESS 10:

DETECTIVE

Yeah.
Do you remember what

they were wearing?


WITNESS 10:

Urn, if I'm not mistaken,

Mr. Brown had a tan, tan pants, a red hat, flip

flops,

yeah, it had to be tan shorts.

of the color, I know they were shorts because his

it might have, may have been tan shorts,


Because I'm not sure

10

socks drew my attention because they were bright

11

yellow and, urn, black, looked like marijuana leafs.

12

And, urn, he had a red hat on.

13

shirt.

14

I'm not sure of the

And his friend that was walking with,

I'm

15

not sure what he was wearing, the only thing I can

16

pick up from him was he had, urn,

17

were, looked like the tips of the dreads was dyed,

18

uh, like a bleach, bleach dyed or whatnot.

19

DETECTIVE

smaller dreads that

And so, urn, Michael

20

Brown was the one that you thought to yourself, urn,

21

that's a big guy?

22

WITNESS 10:

23

DETECTIVE

24

WITNESS 10:

25

DETECTIVE

Yeah, it is.
Is that right?
Yeah.
Okay.

And which way

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were they walking?

2
3

WITNESS 10:

They were walking, you said

west, would be out to West Florissant?


DETECTIVE

West, yeah, it's

towards West Florissant.

complex.
WITNESS 10:

East is towards the

Okay.

So east, yeah, east.

They were walking east when I first,

seen them.

10
11

DETECTIVE

yeah, when I

How far away were they

when you first saw them?

12

WITNESS 10:

13

mean,

14

to.

Urn, when I first saw them,

I could have shook the guys' hand if I wanted

15

DETECTIVE

16

WITNESS 10:

17

DETECTIVE

18

either of these guys?

19

WITNESS 10:

20

DETECTIVE

Okay.
That's how close they were.
Okay.

Do you know

Okay.

Had you ever

No.

21

seen them, one of them before?

22

WITNESS 10:

23

DETECTIVE

No.
Okay.

24

walking east and I don't,

25

incorrect, please correct me, okay?

Uh, so they're

if I say something that's

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WITNESS 10:

DETECTIVE

essentially in front of

working at?

WITNESS 10:

DETECTIVE

They're walking east


that you're

Yes.
They continue east into

the complex?

WITNESS 10:

DETECTIVE

10

Uh-huh.

Yes.
Okay.

went inside to drop off equipment?

11

WITNESS 10:

12

DETECTIVE

13

you come back outside, right?

14

WITNESS 10:

15

DETECTIVE

16

And you said you

Yes.
Okay.

And then when

Uh-huh.
You,

you are working on is on the


you look to your

18

be looking into the complex; is that right?

20

WITNESS 10:

DETECTIVE

22

WITNESS 10:

23

DETECTIVE

25

it would be, you would

I would be looking into

the east, east.

21

24

Yes,

if

side, if

17

19

then,

if your,

Into the complex?


Yeah, yeah.
or to the

would be looking into the complex?


WITNESS 10:

Yeah, yeah.

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DETECTIVE

Okay. And approximately

how far away were you at

that police car at?

WITNESS 10:

DETECTIVE

6
7

8
9

to where you saw

Okay, distance wise


And if you don't know,

you know
WITNESS 10:

It's a guess maybe, 100 yards

I would say, maybe less.


DETECTIVE

Okay, all right.

So

10

you look and you see the police car and where is the

11

police car at?

12
13
14
15
16
17

WITNESS 10:
street at a slant.
DETECTIVE

WITNESS 10:

19

WITNESS 10:

22

It's, urn,

I'm not sure what

Okay.

Urn

Maybe like Suburban style or

that, a long truck, SUV.


DETECTIVE

And that truck that's

parked at a slant would be facing which direction?

23

WITNESS 10:

24

DETECTIVE

25

And what kind of

type of car, but I know it is a truck, it's a truck.


DETECTIVE

21

Okay.

car is it, do you know?

18

20

It is in the middle of the

It would be facing west.


West, okay.

And

explain to me again what you see at that point?

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WITNESS 10:

I see Mr. Brown leaned over

inside the police car, urn, at maybe,

at his, urn, probably below you, what you call, like

under your armpit.

DETECTIVE

WITNESS 10:

than, right below your armpits.

his body is inside the car.

Beneath your armpits?


Yeah, a little bit deeper

DETECTIVE

I see his back

That's how much of

Okay.

So you, when

10

you, you were using your hands, you went here and

11

then you kind of went here, which --

12

WITNESS 10:

Like when I seen this much of

13

his body outside the car, so the rest of his body

14

from here up is inside the car.

15

DETECTIVE

Okay.

And just for the

16

purposes of the recording, uh, so his feet are

17

where?

18

19
20

On the ground.
DETECTIVE

And he is

standing, uh, where at?

21

WITNESS 10:

22

DETECTIVE

23

WITNESS 10:

24

DETECTIVE

25

Okay.

At the, uh, driver's door -Okay.


of the police car.
His feet are on the

ground, he's at the driver's door of the police car.

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WITNESS 10:

DETECTIVE

WITNESS 10:

DETECTIVE

WITNESS 10:

DETECTIVE

WITNESS 10:

DETECTIVE

Yeah.
And, uh, he's leaning?
Inside the window.
Instead the

the.

The police car.


Which, which window?
The driver's window.
Okay.

inside the driver's side window.

So he's leaning
And -- and -- and

10

I'm not, obviously, I don't expect any of this to be

11

exact, you know, down to the millimeter.

12

WITNESS 10:

13

DETECTIVE

14

Uh-huh.
But roughly armpit or

maybe a little bit lower?

15

WITNESS 10:

16

DETECTIVE

Yeah.
That upper portion of

17

his body is in the -- the window,

18

statement?

19

WITNESS 10:

20

DETECTIVE

21

24
25

Yes.
Okay.

And so, uh, is

the door opened, closed?

22
23

is that a fair

WITNESS 10:

No, the door is completely

closed.
DETECTIVE

Okay.

And, uh, do you

see anybody in the driver's seat of that car?

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WITNESS 10:

I couldn't.

All I seen was Mr. Brown's body.

DETECTIVE

I -- I couldn't make it out,

Okay.

And what was his

body doing.
WITNESS 10:

At that distance,

I -- I

-- I

couldn't tell.

all I could assume it was some type of confrontation

was going on in that car.


DETECTIVE

10

It looked like a confrontation and

Okay.

Why -- why did

you assume there was a confrontation?


WITNESS 10:

11

Because afterwards the

12

gunshot, there was a gunshot, one gunshot, and he --

13

he ran off.

14

DETECTIVE

Okay.

So, and again,

15

please correct me if I'm saying anything that even

16

remotely doesn't reflect what you're saying, I just

17

want to make sure I understand, okay?


You see him in the car, you can't

18

19

necessarily tell what's going on, but after hearing

20

the gunshot and you seeing him run off, you make an

21

assumption that there's some sort of confrontation

22

or conflict inside the car, right?

23
24
25

Yes.
DETECTIVE

Okay.

So how, roughly

how long do you think that he is, that Michael Brown

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is in the car?

2
3

WITNESS 10:

Urn, maybe at least ten

seconds from what I seen.


MS WHIRLEY:

All right.

It's at 2041, the

recording.

because the witness is here and we would like to get

her on because we have time constraints.

8
9

We are going to stop the recording

Now

is here and we wanted

to bring on her testimony.

We'll look at her

10

statements later because of our time this afternoon,

11

but I will go get her, and I don't know exactly what

12

time it is now, what time do you have?

13

1:59 p.m.

14

It is about

Is he going to keep recording?


MS. ALIZADEH:

Yes, and I just wanted to

15

say because we weren't recording at the time, we

16

interrupted the statement of Witness 10 because of

17

the next witness being here.

18

where did you say you stopped it?

19

MS WHIRLEY:

20

MS. ALIZADEH:

21
22
23

What did you start it,

At 2041.
I'll make a note that I

have to fix that.


So we are going to just bring the next
witness in who needs to leave.

24
25

of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to

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testify the truth, the whole truth, and

nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid,

deposes and says in reply to oral

interrogatories, propounded as follows, to-wit:

5
6
7

EXAMINATION
BY MS. WHIRLEY:
I'm Sheila Whirley, and Kathi Alizadeh is

also present, the grand jurors are present, and the

court reporter, introduce yourself to the grand

10

jurors, please?

11

I'm

12

All right,

13

14

Could you

spell your name and speak louder for us?

15
16

All right.

And that microphone is not

17

going to amplify your voice or make it louder, it is

18

just recording, so try to talk sort of loud like me,

19

please?

20

I'm sorry, I'm soft spoken.

21

Okay.

22

You know why we are here today,

23

Yes,

24

Tell us where you live in general, you

25

I do.

don't have to give your exact address unless you

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Page 233

want to?

I live in

All right.

Now, you recall August the 9th

of 2014, correct?

Yes.

It was a Saturday?

Yes.

You had occasion to be at Canfield Green?

Yes.

10

Is that right?

11

And does this map look

familiar?

12

Yes, that's the Canfield Green Apartments.

13

That's the complex?

14

Yes.

15

Represented on that map, and that's Grand

16

Juror Exhibit Number 25 for purposes of

17

identification.

18

went to Canfield?

19

What time of day was it that you

It was around noon-ish whenever I went.

20

was supposed to be there a little earlier,

21

up there at noon to pick up

22

me.

I ended

she works for

23

Okay.

So you were picking up an employee?

24

Yes.

25

What do you do for a living?

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Page 234

I do marketing.

And are you a supervisor?

Yes,

It is your firm?

Yes.

Okay.

Right now I have three.

And

10

Yes.

11

Okay.

I have a marketing firm on

12

How many employees do you have?

was one of them?

And you said her name was

how do spell that?

13

14

15

16

17

18

What's her last name?

Can you spell that?

, okay.

19

picking up

20

Green?

21

Yes.

22

Do you recall her address?

23

I don't.

24

Okay.

25

So you are

and she lived in Canfield

Can you see on this map, there

should be a pen there that you would operate, you

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Page 235

see how it works?

Yes.

Could you point on the map where

lived, first of all, do you know where she lived

looking at the map?


Yes,

she lives right here, this apartment

right here.

Yes.

10

Okay.

11

Yes, Canfield Drive.

12

And coming to pick her up that day, did

(indicating)
?

Is that Canfield Drive?

13

you call her first or did you she know what time you

14

were coming?

15

I called her.

I called her when I was on

16

my way and I called her as I was coming down the

17

street right when I turned onto Canfield is when I

18

started calling her.

19

20

called her?

21

Yes.

22

And did you talk to her?

23

No.

24

What happened, did you leave her a

25

So when you were coming this way you

message?

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Page 236

No,

so as I was pulling up and I'm calling

her phone, that's whenever I heard the tires

squeaking as I was turning.

a cop and the kid wrestling through the window.

Okay.

As I get closer,

I see

So when you say you called her, but

you didn't talk to her, what happened in that call?

Did you just hang up, that's what I'm trying to

figure out?

Yeah,

I hung up the phone like,

so I'm

10

trying to call her and when I see this,

11

going through my phone forgetting I'm on the call,

12

trying to get to my camera.

13

her at all.

14

again,

15

disconnected.

And I never spoke with

By the time I look back at my phone

it was disconnected, the call had

16

Did you get to your camera?

17

No.

18

Okay.

Did you record any of this,

19

know, what we are talking about,

20

Michael Brown?

21
22
23
24
25

I start

No,

you

the shooting of

I didn't record any of shooting.

recorded right after it happened.


Q

So tell us again,

you are driving down

Canfield Drive and what do you hear?


A

I hear tires squeaking.

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And then what?

I didn't see anything at that time, but as

I get closer coming around this curve on Canfield, I

see the cop's SUV in the middle of the street and

the kid wrestling through the window with the cop.

And show us on that map where, Grand Jury

Exhibit 25, where approximately you saw the police

car?

10

Okay.

The police car was right here, in

this area right here.

(indicating)

11

Do you know which way it was facing?

12

It was facing,

13

coming.

14

going that way.

coming the way that I was

So it was facing going that away and I was

15

MS. ALIZADEH:

Let me ask,

I think Sheila

16

at one point you made it look like she was going on

17

a certain direction, which direction were you

18

traveling?

19

20
21
22

MS WHIRLEY:
A

25

Yeah, please.

I was coming in on this direction,

I was

coming in through this way.

23
24

Is it okay if I can stand up?

MS. ALIZADEH:
A

Okay.

The car was facing going that way,

I don't

know if it is east or west.

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Page 238

MS WHIRLEY:

1
2

Okay.

(By Ms. Whirley)

So what street is this

out here that you came off of to get onto Canfield

Drive?

West Florissant.

West Florissant, okay.

So you are coming

from West Florissant traveling east on Canfield

Drive?

Yes.

10

And the police car was facing west?

11

Yes.

12

And it was, was it straight or what was

13

the, how was it situated?

14

It was kind of catty-corner, it wasn't

15

straight, it was like a little over both sides of

16

the line, yellow line.

17

Okay, all right.

Kind of in the middle of

18

the street?

19

Yeah.

20

Tell us what you saw again?

21

I saw the cop and the kid kind of like

22

wrestling through the window, it was like a tug of

23

war.

24

pulling in, like it was like going back and forth.

25

The kid was kind of pulling out the, cop was

When you say the kid, who are you

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referring to?
A

You know that is who it is, Michael Brown?

Yes.

Had you known Michael Brown before this

day?
A

No.

10

Ever seen him?

13

complex before?

14

Yeah,

I picked

up a lot there since

15

she's moving,

16

picked her up a few times and dropped her off at

17

home.

18
19

she's only been there over a month.

She had only been living there

approximately a month?

20

Yeah.

21

You had known her longer than that?

22

Yes.

23

Okay.

24

She worked for me since January.

25

Okay.

How long had she worked for you?

All right.

So you see the tug of

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1
2

war, as you put it, and then what happens?


A

As I'm trying to get to my camera and my

phone, that's when the shot

You need to speak up louder, please.

I'm sorry.

As I'm trying to get to my

camera and my phone, that's when a shot came out and

I just got out of the way,

out of the way, and I went to the left side.

I started trying to get

Where were you when you heard the shot?

10

I was right here,

like okay, they were

11

right here and I pulled right in front of here.

12

(indicating)

13

What kind of car were you in?

14

I was in a

15

16

Yes.

17

Okay.

18

So whenever the shot came out, it came

19

from the car and I started turning this way, that's

20

when I saw the kid like yank away like this and take

21

off running.

22

got out, came across the grass.

23

this way, the cop came behind him and was shooting.

24

I saw the kid's body jerk and turn around like this

25

with his hands up.

And I came around, parked right here,


The kid was running

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Page 241

Okay.

So you are in a

and

you say you parked over here?

Yeah,

By Canfield Drive?

Yeah.

In that parking lot?

Yeah.

And were there any other cars on the

9
10

I pulled right here.

street?
A

A Monte Carlo right behind the officer's

11

truck and I don't know, it was a black car that came

12

after a while, but I saw the back.

13

time, it was like, whenever I could get right here,

14

I saw the white car, I didn't see the white car

15

behind the SUV until I get right here.

16

Okay.

17

Yes.

18

All right.

But the whole

(indicating)

And it was a white Monte Carlo?

So when you see, there's a

19

struggle at the car, you hear a shot, does the shot,

20

do you hear the shot when the officer is in the car?

21

Yes.

22

Is Michael Brown still at the window when

23

you hear the shot?

24

Yes.

25

Is anyone with Michael Brown, that you

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Page 242

know, that you see?

At that time I didn't see anybody besides

him, but I saw someone kneeling by the white car,

the white Monte Carlo.

Okay.

Like knelt down.

Okay, all right.

They were knelt?

But you didn't see them

do anything?
A

I didn't see them together at all at the

11

Okay.

12

Brown runs,

13

He runs this way.

14

Okay.

15

He comes behind him shooting.

16

So did you see the officer get out of the

I didn't see him exit the car,

10

17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

time.
So when the shot goes off, Michael

show us again which way?

And the officer, what does he do?

car?
I was on

the other side of the car at the time.


Q

Okay.

So where were you when you saw the

officer shooting?
A

I was coming across this grass and the

officer started pursuing Michael coming this way.


Q

You could clearly see the officer running

after him?

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Yes.

And you could see the officer shooting?

Yes.

Okay.

And Michael is running and his back

is to the officer?

Yes.

And the officer is shooting?

Yes.

Do you have any idea how many shots were

10

fired by the officer?

11

Not at all.

12

Okay.

13

I didn't count that at all.

14

Okay.

And then what happens after he is

15

shooting at the officer,

16

shooting at Michael Brown?

17

I mean, the officer is

I saw his body jerk and stopped and turned

18

around and put his hands up, and that's when the

19

officer continued to walk and shoot until he went

20

all the way down.

21

Okay.

Can you hear anybody say anything?

22

I can't hear anything from anybody.

23

Okay.

24

At the time that he, Michael went down?

25

Yeah, that's right,

And show us again where you are?

let me make it clear

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Grand Jury Volume VI


September 23, 2014
Page 244

because you said, you showed us where you were when

you saw him running?

Yes.

The officer is pursuing Michael, he is

shooting you said?

Yes.

When Michael turns around, where is

Michael?

He stopped running and he turned around?

He was right here.

10

And where are you?

11

MS. ALIZADEH:

(indicating)

Wait a minute, can you

12

point again because I can't see where you are

13

pointing?

14

Okay, I'm sorry, which part?

15

MS WHIRLEY:

When Michael stops running

16

and turns around, where is he?

17

18

(By Ms. Whirley) Where are you?

19

I'm right here coming across this grass.

20

How close would you say that is in your

21

He is right here.

(indicating)

opinion?

22

I don't know how to measure by feet.

23

Okay.

Look at me.

Tell me when we're as

24

close as you were to where Michael was, if that's

25

possible in this room.

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Page 245

Okay.

right kind of like at her, where she is standing.


Where she is standing, you can see that

close?

Yeah.

Okay.

So I can say from me to Michael is

Now, he turns around and you say he

puts his hands up?

Yeah.

Does he appear to be hit by any bullets or

10
11

anything?
A

didn't see any blood or anything until

12

it started pouring on the ground as he's laying

13

there.

14

thinking like are these rubber bullets.

15

exactly where he was hit.

Whenever the bullets was hitting him,

16

Okay.

17

18

the ground.

19

I was

I can't say

just saw the one in his face when he hit

When he first turned around and had his

20

hands up,

you couldn't really see whether he was

21

shot, you couldn't tell whether he was shot or not?

22

No,

23

But you couldn't hear him say anything to

24
25

couldn't.

the officer?
A

No.

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Page 246

Was the officer saying anything to him?

I didn't hear the officer say anything to

him,

I didn't hear conversation from either party.


Q

Okay.

So we know you were like from this

distance to that distance and can anybody give an

estimate of how far that would be?

About 20 feet.

(By Ms. Whirley) Now, from the officer,

how far was the officer from Michael Brown when

10

Michael Brown turned around and raised his hands,

11

the same, a similar distance or something different?

12

Similar distance because I was closer to

13

the officer than I was to Michael when he turned

14

around.

15
16

so,

Okay.

So that's Michael 20 feet away or

I'm the officer, let's say,

just for purposes of

20

Yes.

Q
A

23

24

or so?

25

About where I am now?

So another 20 feet

Yeah, maybe so.

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Page 247

1
2

Okay.

You can see both the officer and

Michael Brown?

Yes.

From approximately 20 feet away?

Yes.

Okay.

And if I didn't ask you this, how

close was the officer to Michael Brown, not you to

them, but the officer and Michael Brown, how close

were they?

10
11
12
13

Were they closer than you were to them?


They were closer to each other than I was

to them.
Q

That's my question.

Any idea how close,

like me and you again?

14

I can't say exactly, it was movement.

15

Okay.

16

So I can't say exactly like where they

17

stood at what point.

18

That's fair.

19

They were constantly moving.

20

He turns around with his hands up and then

21

what does the officer do?

22

He continued to come up on him.

23

Like show me?

24

He just continued to come up on him and

25

shoot him.

He never got like, he was further back

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Page 248

from him, but he kept shooting him until he fell

down to the ground.

Did Michael Brown ever move back or come

forward?

Like he came forward.

He came forward.

7
8

9
10
11

Did he come forward in a

charging motion?
A

No,

like he just went forward like his

body was just going down and he was shooting him.


Q

So from where you were, it didn't appear

that Michael Brown was threatening the officer?

12

No, no.

13

You didn't think --

14

No, he wasn't coming towards him whenever

15

he turned around.

16

turned around like, that's whenever like the bullets

17

start hitting him.

18

he just started going down from that point.

19
20
21

Okay.

He just start like, as soon as he

I can't say exactly where, but

Did it appear at any time that

Michael Brown had a weapon?


A

No,

I couldn't see anything in his hand

22

while he was running.

23

hands were at this point.

24
25

Okay.

I can't even say where his

I was going to ask you that

question when he was going down, did you see his

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Page 249

hands?

3
4

Yeah, they were, they were the whole time.

(indicating)
Q

His hands was up when he turned around,

when he was going down you said the officer was

shooting at him?

8
9

When he went down, he went down to the

ground like this.


Q

Okay.

(indicating)
And from your perspective, in your

10

opinion, you didn't think that the officer was ever,

11

his life was not threatened?

12
13

I can't say, before I pulled up to this

car, I can't say what happened before I got there.

14

Right.

15

So I don't know what happened between them

16

before I pulled up, but I can only say what I saw.

17

From what I saw, he was trying to get away, he was

18

pulling away at the window.

19

Okay.

And you saw it from the time that

20

he ran from the car window until he laid dead on the

21

ground?

22

Yes.

23

And between that timeframe, he never

24

appeared, in your opinion, to be threatening the

25

officer?

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Page 250

1
2

No, he was trying to get away from what I

saw.

MS WHIRLEY:

MS. ALIZADEH:

MS. ALIZADEH:

name is Kathi Alizadeh,

office as well.
A

10

Yeah.

Hi,

Hi.

Okay, Kathi?

I know we haven't met, my


I'm with the prosecutor's

Uh-huh.
MS. ALIZADEH:

Miss Whirley and I are

11

working together on this investigation, so we kind

12

of tag team.

13

questions and she's asking you certain questions,

14

but I want to clarify something here.

15

say, I'm going to use this pointer, and you tell me

16

if I'm right.

17

somewhere around in here, correct?

18

19
20

It is not that I'm asking you certain

So when you

You said the officer's car was

Yes.
MS. ALIZADEH:

And you came in from this

direction?

21

Yes.

22

(By Ms. Alizadeh) And then you turn around

23
24
25

this horseshoe, which is Canfield Drive, correct?


A

Yeah,

I turned into here and I didn't go

all the way around it.

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Page 251

Did you park right,

Yes, that's where I parked.

Okay.

grass?

Yes.

Now, you said that Michael Brown was

like right around

here?

And then you walked through the

running in this direction, correct?

Yes.

10

So that is down Canfield Drive, and he is

11

running towards Copper Creek Court, this is Copper

12

Creek Court right here?

(indicating)

13

Yes, he never made it that far.

14

You said he never made it this far?

15

Yes.

16

Which is,

I've got the laser pointer,

17

right on the corner of Canfield Drive and Copper

18

Creek Court, he never made it that far?

19

Yeah.

20

And so you say that at the location where

21

he ended coming, you know,

22

was in the street?

came to rest, his body

23

Uh-huh.

24

Urn, how much distance farther had he run

25

before he fell down into the street, do you know

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Page 252

what I'm saying?

around?

So he runs and then he turns

Uh-huh.

And does he take any steps or come towards

the officer at all?

Whenever he stopped and turned around at,

that's where he fell dead at.

Okay.

I didn't see him take any more steps.

10

Let me ask you this, is it possible as you

11

were trying to make your way in this direction and

12

watching what was going on, you could have missed

13

him being close to this corner to where he would

14

have come 20 feet back toward the officer?

15

No,

I can't.

So whenever I was over this

16

way,

17

across here and him to come all the way, that's not

18

enough time I don't think.

19

far,

20

this, whenever I saw the officer coming this way and

21

he was still coming right there,

22

that far.

23

I saw him running past here, but for me to come

not at all.

Okay.

I didn't see him go that

Because whenever I came across

so he never made it

So let me tell you something, go

24

ahead and sit down.

So as you park your car, do you

25

recall which slot you were in right here?

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Page 253

1
2

(indicating)
A

No,

I don't.

I was right in one on that

side though.

On what side?

On the side.

Closet to the street?

Yes.

Closest to Canfield Drive?

10
11

was in one of those three,

can't

remember exactly where I parked.


Q

From where you were parking and you have

12

to get out of your car, is it possible that you lose

13

sight of him for a time period or that you can't see

14

from your location to where he could have been at

15

that corner?

16

No.

17

Okay.

18

been out on that street since then?

19

No,

20

Okay.

21
22
23
24
25

So let me ask you this, have you

I don't.
Since then you haven't seen the

flowers and memorial?


A

I seen pictures in the news and stuff like

that, not myself actually being there, no.


Q

Do you have any reason to know why Michael

Brown's blood might have been located in this area?

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Page 254

No.

He came to rest right about here, would

that be fair to say?

Yeah.

Right, almost right across from

Caddiefield Drive?

Yes.

So you don't know how it would have been

9
10

possible for his blood to be 20 and 22 feet that


direction toward Copper Creek Court?

11

No,

12

Okay.

13

I don't.
Is it possible that you in trying

to get out of your car, were you dressed for work?

14

Yes,

I was.

15

Were you wearing heels?

16

No,

17

Okay.

I had on khakis and a T-shirt.


So is there,

is it possible that,

18

you know, you trying to run through the grass or get

19

in this direction, you missed a part of that?

20

I can't see me missing that part because

21

whenever I was coming across,

22

them.

23
24
25

I still had sight of

I didn't see him go that far.


Q

Okay.

But you say you saw him turn

around?
A

Yes.

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Page 255

And from the point he turned around, he

didn't really go any further closer to the officer?

No.

And he had his hands up at that point?

Yes.

Okay.

That day, August 9th, pretty hot

outside?

Yeah.

Did you have your car windows up and the

10
11

12

air conditioner on?


A

No, the air is out on my work van, so I

had windows down.

13

Okay.

You had the windows down?

14

Yes.

15

When you pulled in here and you saw

16

Michael Brown and he was struggling with the

17

officer, or what was your description?

18

It was like a wrestling.

19

Wrestling.

20

So he's at the officer's car

window?

21

Uh-huh.

22

And do you see any part of Michael Brown's

23
24
25

body inside the police vehicle?


A

Like maybe his arms and stuff going back

and forth through the window,

like being pulled back

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Page 256

and forth.

Okay.

How about his head, did you ever

see his head in the window?

I saw his head in the window, but not like

kneel down into the window kind of thing, it was

like kind of pulled back and forth like at the

window.

9
10
11
12
13

So Michael Brown, do you know how tall he

No, he's really tall though, he was a man

was?

when I first saw him,


Q

I didn't know he was a kid.

He is taller than the roof of the vehicle,

correct?

14

Yes.

15

So in order for his head to be in the

16

vehicle, he would have to have been at some point

17

bent over a little bit, correct?

18

Yeah.

19

His head couldn't --

20

Yeah.

21

Right, right.

22

It went, yeah.

23

And you said that you thought his head

24
25

might have been in the vehicle at some point?


A

Yeah, coming like back and forth through

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Page 257

the window.

Okay.

Could you see anybody if there was

anybody hitting anybody else?

I couldn't see that.

Couldn't tell?

No.

Okay.

And how many seconds from the time

that you pull up and you see this going on at the

vehicle to the time that Michael Brown is lying in

10

the street?

11

I don't know.

12

Can you give me an estimate?

13

It was less than two minutes.

14

Okay.

15

And just to be clear, you heard one

gunshot while Michael Brown was by the vehicle?

16

Yes.

17

And then he runs and the officer chases

18

him while firing his weapon?

19

Uh-huh.

20

Can you give me an idea how many times the

21
22
23
24
25

officers fires his weapon while he is chasing him?


A

No,

I can't.

I don't know exactly, it is

about five or six times.


Q

Okay.

And then does he continue to fire

as Michael Brown is turning around, or is there a

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Page 258

pause in the gunshots?

There was a pause.

Okay.

4
5

So Michael Brown, does the pause

happen when he turns around or before or after?


A

Like during the time,

I can't say exactly

when the pause happened because there were several

pauses.

this happened and then a pause,

attention like when the gunshots came and when it

10
11

I can't say this happened and then a pause,


I wasn't paying

stopped.
Q

Okay.

And I know, it is tough,

I mean,

12

this is all very chaotic, and you're seeing

13

something, you probably can't even believe what you

14

are seeing, right?

15

Yeah.

16

So as best we can, you know, everybody

17

that says that they saw this we are trying to get as

18

many details as we can out of them.

19

Uh-huh.

20

I'm not here to say one person is right,

21

and one person is wrong, okay.

22

your recollection.

23
24
25

Just the best of

You said you maybe heard how many


shots, five or six shots as he was running?
A

Yeah, more than five or six shots.

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Page 259

More than five or six?

Yeah.

And then at some point there is a pause in

the gunfire and then you hear more gunfire?

Yes.

How many guesstimates would you say you

heard then?

Probably four or five more,

Okay.

10

don't know.

And then after that round of

gunfire, do you hear any more gunshots?

11

No, afterwards, no.

12

So it is that last round of four or five

13

gunshots that Michael Brown then collapses in the

14

street?

15

Yeah.

Around about that many times,

16

can't say exactly how many times he shot each time

17

at all.

18

Okay.

19

20

Okay.

never counted.
And that's fair.

Did you ever see,

21

after Michael Brown went down on the pavement, did

22

you ever see the officer shoot him again?

23

No.

24

Did you see the officer go up to him?

25

Huh-uh.

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Page 260

2
3

Okay.

At some point did you see Dorian

Johnson running away ever?


A

I didn't see him.

Only time I saw him was

on the side of that red car, I didn't look back to

see him at all.

I didn't see him any more after.

On the side of what car?

At the side of the little white car.

The Monte Carlo?

The Monte Carlo.

10

You didn't see where he went after that?

11

No, I didn't.

12

Did eventually, did

13

come down from

her apartment?

14

I went upstairs to her.

15

Did you girls eventually go down to the

16
17

street?
A

I went,

I came down whenever the officer

18

said it was okay to come down, because the

19

investigators were there, they wouldn't even let me

20

come down at all, and they told us we had to stay up

21

on the porch because they were trying to block it

22

off, and we had to stay up and they were applying

23

the tape.

24
25

While the officers still had things taped

off, did you eventually come down?

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Page 261

No, never.

Never did?

I came down when they investigator got

4
5

done talking to us.


Did you ever use your phone to tape

anything or record anything?

I did.

And that's when you are on the ground,

9
10
11
12

correct?
That was whenever I was not top on the

balcony.
Okay.

So you went up to

's

13

apartment and did she stay upstairs too or did she

14

ever go downstairs?

15

I don't remember her going downstairs,

16

can't say for sure, but I never looked at that

17

point.

18

the steps.

19

conversations on our phone, we were both crying.

20

don't remember her going down, but I know I didn't

21

go down.

22
23

We were walking back and forth, up and down


We were having two different

Okay.

So this number five is her

building, correct?

24

Uh-huh.

25

Do you enter her building off of this

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Page 262

Canfield Drive horseshoe?

No.

You enter --

Those steps right there.

Right here?

Yeah.

Right in front of Canfield Drive, right

across from where Michael Brown's body was,

correct?

Uh-huh.

10

So after this happened, how long did you

11

remain out here before you went inside the

12

apartment?

13

I went straight upstairs to her balcony.

14

Okay.

15

And her balcony is on the front of

the building?

16

Yes.

17

Third floor?

18

Yes.

19

Did the two of you, did she let you into

20

her apartment, was she inside when you went to her

21

apartment?

22

She was standing on the balcony with her

23

phone out recording and she was trying to say,

24

just saw him kill him.

25

And she was crying,

I said, yeah,

I saw him too.

I got on the phone I called my

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Page 263

1
2

fiancee and said, I just saw the incident.


Q

Okay.

But she was in the apartment when

you got there?

She was on her balcony, yes.

You remained up there?

Yeah.

You went upstairs?

We remained, we walked up and down the

9
10

steps a couple of times, both on our phones and we


stayed up there.

11

Okay.

12

Or her and I stayed up there.

I don't

13

think she ever went down, the cops wouldn't let us

14

come down.

15
16
17

As far as you know, she stayed up there

with you too?


A

Yes.

18

MS. ALIZADEH:

I don't have anything else.

19

MS WHIRLEY:

20

You did talk to a police officer that day,

Questions?

Anybody?

21

give a statement to the police officer the same day

22

as the shooing?

23
24
25

Yes.
MS WHIRLEY:

Like within an hour or so of

the shooing.

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Page 264

Yes.

MS WHIRLEY:

MS. ALIZADEH:

4
5

Okay.
And you have made numerous

statements like in the media, correct?


A

Uh-huh, yes.

MS. ALIZADEH:

interviewed by the FBI, correct?

Yes.
MS. ALIZADEH:

And then recently you were

Other than the statement

10

you made that day to the County Police, and the

11

statements you've made in the media and the

12

statement you made to the FBI, have you ever made a

13

statement to anybody else about this?

14

15
16
17

MS. ALIZADEH:

20
21
22

Other than talking amongst

your friends or with your friends?

18
19

No.

No, that's it.


MS. ALIZADEH:

Pardon me?

No, that's it,

I haven't.

MS. ALIZADEH:

Okay.

And does

still work for you?


A

23

Yes.
MS. ALIZADEH:

Have you, other than the

24

day that this happened, do you guys discuss this

25

together?

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We talked about it the other day after the

FBI, after we saw the FBI in the office, and we were

just talking about how it changed our life and what

is going on with it.


MS. ALIZADEH:

Is there any information

that you have or anything that we didn't ask you

maybe that you think is important for this grand

jury to know?

No, not that I can think of.

10

MS. ALIZADEH:

Okay.

If you find

11

something out or there is something important that

12

you know of, will you contact us or contact your

13

attorney and have him get ahold of us so we can

14

learn that?

15

I will.
MS. ALIZADEH:

16
17

MS WHIRLEY:

That will end the testimony

of

20
21

No further

questions.

18
19

All right.

(End of the testimony of


.)

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1
2

State of Missouri

5
6

SS.

County of St. Louis


I,

a Licensed Certified Court

Reporter by the Supreme Court in and for the State

of Missouri, duly commissioned, qualified and

authorized to administer oaths and to certify to

10

depositions, do hereby certify that pursuant to

11

Notice in the civil cause now pending and

12

undetermined in the County of St. Louis, State of

13

Missouri.

14

The said witness, being of sound mind and being

15

by the grand jury first carefully examined and duly

16

cautioned and sworn to testify to the truth, the

17

whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the case

18

aforesaid, thereupon testified as is shown in the

19

foregoing transcript, said testimony being by me

20

reported in shorthand and caused to be transcribed

21

into typewriting, and that the foregoing page

22

correctly sets forth the testimony of the

23

aforementioned witness, together with the questions

24

propounded by counsel and grand jurors thereto, and

25

is in all respects a full,

true,

correct and

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complete transcript of the questions propounded to

and the answers given by said witness.

I further certify that the foregoing pages

contain a true and accurate reproduction of the

proceedings.

I further certify that I am not of counselor

attorney for either of the parties to said suit, not

related to nor interested in any of the parties or

their attorneys.

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COURT MEMO

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State of Missouri vs. Darren Wilson

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CERTIFICATE OF OFFICER AND

STATEMENT OF DEPOSITION CHARGES

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DEPOSITION OF Grand Jury, Volume VI

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9/23/2014

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Name and address of person or firm having custody of

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the original transcript:

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St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney's Office

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100 S. Central Ave.

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Clayton, MO 63105

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ORIGINAL TRANSCRIPT TAXED IN FAVOR OF:

St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney's Office

100 S. Central Ave.

Clayton, MO 63105

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Upon delivery of transcripts, the above

charges had not been paid.

that all charges will be paid in the normal course

of business.

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State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume VII


September 25, 2014
Page 1

STATE OF MISSOURI

VS.

DARREN WILSON

GRAND JURY

SEPTEMBER 25, 2014

VOLUME VII

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Page 2

IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF ST. LOUIS COUNTY

STATE OF MISSOURI

STATE OF MISSOURI

5
6

vs.

DARREN WILSON

10
11

12

The following is a hearing before the Grand

13

Jury of St. Louis County, at the offices of St.

14

Louis County Prosecuting Attorney's Office, 100

15

South Central Avenue, in the City of Clayton, State

16

of Missouri, on the 25th day of September, 2014,

17

before

18
19

20
21
22
23
24
25

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September 25, 2014
Page 3

APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:

2
3

FOR THE STATE:

Ms. Kathi Alizadeh & Ms. Sheila Whirley

Assistant Prosecuting Attorneys for St. Louis

County

100 South Central Avenue, 2nd Floor

Clayton, MO 63105

(314)

615-2600

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Page 5

3
4

GRAND JURY HEARING VOLUME VII


MS. WHIRLEY:

Good morning.

(Everybody says good morning.)


MS. WHIRLEY:

I'm Sheila Whirley.

Of

course, Kathi Alizadeh is here, 12 grand jurors is

here, and the court reporter.

the 25th, Thursday.

program memorized for this morning or for today.

can tell you our first witness is

Today is September

And I don't have the total


I

10

, we heard his taped

11

statements last time we were here, recorded

12

statements with the police, with the FBI agent, and

13

also made several appearances on the media for CNN,

14

and I think various TV channels.

15

that, he is going to testify live here this morning.

16
17
18

You guys remember

And then, Kathi, could you tell us what


else is on the agenda today?
MS. ALIZADEH:

I don't know.

No,

19

actually, we have a witness scheduled for 10:30.

20

called me bright and early this morning to cancel,

21

so we're going to probably play you, I don't think

22

Witness Number 10, remember the guy that was

23
24
25

He

He has a recorded statement


I don't think I played.
MS. WHIRLEY:

Only played part of it.

We

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Page 6

had about ten minutes left.


MS. ALIZADEH:

We can play the end of that

to finish that and then we also have, you all heard

from

interviews that take, I think, about 33 minutes

total for all of her media interviews.

also has some recorded statements that we can play

and hopefully, that will fill out the morning.

last time and she has media

And then she

And then in the afternoon we have a

10

witness scheduled to be here at 12:30.

11

and make sure he hasn't called to cancel during a

12

break or whatever, hopefully then we will have

13

another witness here in the afternoon.

14

a taped statement.

15

minutes or an hour, it doesn't exceed an hour.

16

I will check

He also has

I can't remember if it is 30

So if he, you know, shows up, we can play

17

his statement and then have him testify, and I think

18

we are trying to recess 2:30.

19

3:15.

20

MS. ALIZADEH:

At the lunch break, if we

21

need to figure out how to fill our time, we'll do

22

that.

23
24
25

Also, if you recall, Witness Number 10 had


talked about the fact that he is,
at the scene

the

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Page 7

aftermath,

2
I do have that clip and we will play it

for you.

It is only a couple minutes and, you know,

just so you know,

It is not a very long

clip, so if you all, if we go through it, we can

play it again.

because the person who is doing the recording

So we can go back and try to listen,

10

occasionally speaks and, of course, their voice will

11

kind of talk over the people that are in the

12

background.

13

So it might be, if you request it, it

14

might be you want to hear that a couple of times

15

just so you can try to pick up what's being said.

16

All right.

17
18

MS. WHIRLEY:

All right.

I'll go get the

first witness.

19

MS. ALIZADEH:

20

question that they had.

21

MS. WHIRLEY:

22

MS. ALIZADEH:

Let's talk about the

Okay.
We were not on the record,

23

I think it was last week when one of you asked a

24

question about your deliberations and, of course,

25

you've been sitting as a grand jury for several

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Page 8

months, so you know that it takes nine people to

indict and the question was asked what if we have,

what if we can't, since we're giving you a variety

of different charges to consider,

question was, what if we don't have nine people that

all agree on the same charge, what do we do then or

what happens.

I think the

And I wanted to make sure that I put that

in there in the record that that was a question that

10

was asked and we have had discussions about that and

11

what I will tell you is we're researching this

12

because we want to make sure before we tell you, you

13

know, we want to make sure we're correct on the law,

14

but I assure you that we will have an answer for you

15

well before you begin your deliberations about what,

16

in the event that that would happen, what happens

17

then.

18

19

All right.
Are there any other questions that anybody

had thought of?

Okay, all right.

20
21

of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to

22

testify the truth, the whole truth, and

23

nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid,

24

deposes and says in reply to oral

25

interrogatories, propounded as follows, to-wit:

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Page 9

1
2

EXAMINATION
BY MS. WHIRLEY:

Introduce yourself to the jurors, please.

My name is

All right.

live?

in what vicinity?

, where do you

You don't have to give me your exact address,

I live in Canfield.

Do you live in the Canfield Green

10

Apartments?

11

Yes,

12

How long have you lived there?

13

Urn,

14

One year.

15

I do.

going on a year now.


So you lived there on August

the 9th of 2014?

16

Yeah.

17

Is that the day that Michael Brown was

19

Uh, no,

20

August 9th of 2014,

21

Yes.

22

What day was it?

23

Urn,

24

Okay, Saturday.

18

25

shot?
I think it was like on the 9th.
correct?

I think that was a Saturday.


Do you remember your

Saturday that day?

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Page 10

Yes.

All I did that morning, early that

morning, my family and I went out for breakfast and

we came back around nine something and we all took a

nap.

How many folks went to breakfast with you?

Uh, four altogether.

three kids.

And then you all came back and took a nap?

Yes.

10

And so what time did you wake up from the

12

Urn,

13

11:30.

14

Did something wake you up or you just woke

16

A friend of mine came over.

17

Okay.

11

15

nap?

came over?

19

21
22
23
24
25

I was actually woken up about 11:00,

up?

18

20

My fiancee and my

Urn,

And what happened when your friend

I steps outside with him for a couple

of minutes, maybe no longer than five minutes.


Q

Okay.

Can you show us on the map?

You

can use that pointer or that laser light thing.


Show us where you live.
MS. ALIZADEH:

For the record, this is

Grand Jury Exhibit Number 25.

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Page 11

MS. WHIRLEY:

I have to push it.

MS. WHIRLEY:

3
4

Oh,

Yes, thank you.

Yeah, push it down.

(By Ms. Whirley) Grand Jury Exhibit Number

25, show us where you live.

I live right here.

All right.

So is that an upstairs or

ground level?

10

floor.

That's the middle level, that's the second

11

Do you have a balcony?

12

Yes,

13

So when you went out and talked with your

14

I do.

friend, were you on the balcony?


A

Q
A

19
20

I goes back in the house.

I goes back in

the house.
Q

22

I goes back in the house no longer, three,

23

four minutes after that maybe, and I heard something

24

going on outside.

25

And do you investigate that to see what it

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Page 12

is?

Yes,

I happen to look out the window.

All right.

I see a guy on the side, on the driver's

And what do you see?

side of a police vehicle.

going on through the window,

on through the window.

I just see something


like a tussling going

Can you show us on the map where you saw

this police vehicle?

10

Urn, about right here.

11

Okay.

12

And show us again where your

apartment is.

13

My apartment is right here.

14

So you are looking sort of down?

15

Yeah.

16

And --

17

Kind of.

18

From your perspective, from your point of

19

view, are you looking at the driver's side of the

20

vehicle or the passenger's side of the vehicle?

21

I'm looking directly through the passenger

22

window to the driver, you know,

23

good.

24
25

Okay.

so I could see real

So which direction was the car

facing?

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Page 13

The vehicle was actually facing

The truck, the police truck.

The police vehicle was like facing like up

here,

you know,

kind of like my direction, but this

way diagonal like.

Okay.

Maybe like facing this building.

Okay.

So you're saying it was like facing

that building?

10

Yeah,

11

All right.

12

So if it was traveling, which

way would it have been traveling?

13

14

Florissant.

15

16

kind of, you know, by diagonal.

Urn,

it was traveling going towards West

All right.

That would be going west on

Canfield Drive?

17

Yeah.

18

But it was diagonal?

19

Right.

20

Parked when you saw it?

21

Yeah.

22

Did it look like the brake lights were on

23

or anything?

24

I didn't notice that.

25

Okay, all right.

So it is facing this way

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Page 14

diagonally, but you can see the passenger side

versus the driver's side?

I could see the passenger's side clearly.

Clearly?

Versus the driver's side.

Okay.

So then you see a tussling going

on, can you give us any more description about what

the tussling looks like?

10

Urn, obviously, the window is between them,

so I just see both arms moving.

11

When you say both arms, what do you mean?

12

I see, if my window was in this direction

13

I can see the officer's arms moving this way and I

14

see Mike's arms, you know, whatever, through the

15

window, whatever.

16
17

Can you see skin of the arms, are they

wearing long sleeves?

18

Yeah, it was skin.

19

Could you tell two black people, two white

20

people, black and white?

21

I could tell black and white.

22

You could tell black and white.

23

You said

Mike, you used the name Mike?

24

Yeah.

25

Did you know Mike?

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Page 15

No.

Had you ever met him before?

I seen him before.

Because he lived in the neighborhood you

thought?

I'm not even sure.

You don't know, okay.

to him?

No.

10

All right.

11
12

Had you ever talked

Okay.

So then what after you

see the tussling?


A

I see the tussling and all of the sudden,

13

he also had a friend with him, he was standing like

14

in front of the vehicle, the police cruiser, but

15

like on the passenger side in front, maybe like

16

4 feet away from him, but all of the sudden, they

17

just takes off running.

18

So his friend, which you now know to be

19

who, what is his friend's name, do you know what his

20

friend's name is now?

21

Urn, urn, Dorian.

22

Okay, Dorian.

23

So was his friend on the,

Mike was on the driver's side; is that correct?

24

Yeah.

25

With the officer tussling you said?

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Page 16

Yes.

Was Dorian on the driver's side too?

No, he was on the passenger side.

The passenger side of the?

Police cruiser.

Closer to where you could see?

Yeah.

Okay.

He's just standing,

10

Okay.

11

And,

12

just standing there.

And then what?


like I said, they both just take off

running, almost like at the same time.

13
14

And what was he doing?

Okay.

Did you see anything that occurred

that caused them both to take off running?

15

No,

I didn't notice that.

16

All of the sudden they both

17

They takes off running.

18

Did you hear anybody saying anything?

19

Urn,

I heard, that's the only thing I heard

20

was just the tussling or whatever,

21

voices, but I'm not sure like what was said, they

22

just take off running.

23
24
25

like maybe some

All right.

They took off running which

Urn, Mike, he runs straight down Canfield

way?

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Page 17

directly in the middle of the road, and his friend,

like I said, he was in the front passenger side, and

if the vehicle, the police cruiser is like right

here and there was also two parked vehicles on the

side right here, and his friend takes off running

directly behind the first vehicle he sees.

Okay.

That was on the side.

Do you recall what those vehicles were

10
11
12

like, the color and make of the cars?


A

I just remember the white vehicle that

Dorian ran to.

13

Do you know what kind of car that was?

14

It was like a two-door Monte Carlo.

15

Okay.

So there were two cars parked, the

16

first was the Monte Carlo close to the police

17

vehicle?

18

Yeah.

19

And then Mike is running down,

I guess

20

east, well, you are showing us east on Canfield

21

Drive?

22

Yes.

23

And then what happens?

24

And, urn, the moment they take off running,

25

I see the officer immediately gets out of his

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Page 18

vehicle, pullout his gun, definitely,

shooting position, and let me see.

probably made it about right here in front of this

driveway, as I said before, he didn't make it there,

he just, when he gets out of the car he just

immediately starts shoot.

in his

Mike must have

As soon as the officer gets out of the car

he's shooting?

Yes.

10

And when you say the shooting,

I don't

11

know what your phrase, was standpoint, what did you

12

say?

13

Yeah, like in a shooting position.

14

Position, show us the shooting position.

15

Urn,

16

So he gets out of the car and does that?

17

Yeah, or maybe this right here.

18

Okay, thank you.

19

like, you know (indicating).

And Mike is running and

he's shooting?

20

Yes.

22

him?

23

Yes.

24

And then what?

25

And, urn, at the time I was still in the

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Page 19

window looking and, urn, my eyes, actually,

I was

still kind of focused,

them, but mainly on Dorian because he was still

closer to the officer than Mike because Mike, he ran

kind of fast at that time, but as I see Dorian

ducking down looking at the officer shooting, I was

kind of thinking that the officer was, he was going

to stop, even hisself with the vehicle that his

friend ran to and come over and shoot him.

I was focused on both of

10

Shoot Dorian?

11

Yeah, but I kept my eyes on him because I

12

seen Dorian constantly looking over the vehicle and

13

looking at the officer each time.

14
15

Did Dorian look a certain way or anything

in your opinion?

16

Just looking scared.

17

Okay.

18

Definitely looking at the officer, like I

20

Was he saying anything, Dorian, that you

21

could hear?

22

No, no.

23

How many shots did you hear the officer

19

said.

24

fire when he got out of the car and pursued Mike

25

Brown?

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Page 20

Maybe four or five times.

Okay.

No.

But it seemed like four or five?

Yeah, it was kind of like a round though.

Okay.

And you didn't count the shots?

So you seen Dorian, Mike is

running, now what?

I'm still in the window and, urn,

I notice

that the officer passed his friend Dorian where he

10

ran to and that's when I decided to run outside to

11

see what, you know, get a closer look.

12

But I forgot my phone in the bedroom,

13

so I still took some steps, ran into the bedroom and

14

got my phone and I went back, which is just a couple

15

of seconds.

16

17
18
19

out?

And where did you end up when you came

Show us on the map where you were.


A

I was at this building right here on the

second floor.

20

Uh-huh.

21

On the balcony.

22

Uh-huh.

23

Turning on the power on my phone and the

24

moment I steps outside, I see Mr. Brown kind of bent

25

down a little bit with his arms tucked in like on

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Page 21

his stomach, so now I'm thinking that he's now shot.

He was going down definitely so, and

the officer just let out a few more rounds to him

and he hit the ground and that's when I seen blood.

So when you stay he was going down, the

officer shot more at him you say?

Uh-huh.

How many more times maybe?

Maybe four or five more times.

10

Can you demonstrate for us when you say

11

going down, what his position looked like?

12

His position looked like this.

13

Both arms under?

14

Both arms like this

15

Under his torso?

16

Yeah,

(indicating) .

I remember him like taking two small

17

steps like he was stumbling and like I said, the

18

officer lets out some more shots and that's when he

19

hit the ground.

20

Yeah, he hit the ground just like how

21

he, how he laid there or whatever, he dropped the

22

arm.

23

Okay.

So he had two arms --

24

Just like this.

25

-- and one arm came out?

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Page 22

Yeah, yeah, yeah, so all at the same time

cause, urn,

didn't see no blood yet or, you know, so.

officer let out more shots, you know, he just hit

the ground, boom,

I thought he was hit in his chest I

just like this.

And the officer let off the shots as he

was going down?

Yeah.

Okay.

10

When the

Did it appear to you that Mike

Brown was charging the officer?

11

No.

12

Did it appear that the officer was being

13

threatened by Mike Brown at that point when he was

14

going down?

15

No.

16

Okay.

17

Mike Brown hit the ground?

18

19

Then what did the officer do once

Uh, the officer was maybe 5 feet away from

his body.

20

Was he 5 feet away, did you see the shots?

21

Yeah,

22

So he was shooting, when Mike Brown was

I saw the shots.

23

going down, how far away was he from Mike Brown

24

then?

25

He was like a good 15, 20 feet.

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Page 23

From him when he, and let me walk it, I am

going to walk back here and you tell me how far,

like you be the officer and I'm Mike Brown.

this room is large enough, about right here?

So if

Yeah, maybe,

You can stand up.

Maybe I'm standing at the door, about this

I'm standing at the door.

distance.

This is the distance between Mike Brown

10

and the officer when he shot him and he was going

11

down?

12

Yeah, at the time that he was going down,

13

but like I said, he was probably a little bit

14

farther when he let out the first shots.

15

Okay.

16

The last shots he was about this distance,

Okay.

17
18

19

yeah.
So that's about 20 feet,

15 or

20 feet?

20

Yeah.

21

That's what you thought it was, right?

22

Yeah.

23

And what did the officer do?

24
25

You said at

some point he was like five foot from you?


A

Yeah,

I see his body,

I didn't see him

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Page 24

check his body.

his body, urn, over his shoulder or whatever on his

walkie-talkie, still have his gun out pointed at

him.

point?

Okay.

He was just like 5 feet away from

And was Mike Brown moving at that

No, the moment he hit the ground,

knew

he was dead.

No more movement?

10

No more.

11

At any point did you hear the officer say

12

anything?

13

No, no,

14

At any point did you hear Mike Brown say

15

don't remember.

anything?

16

No.

17

How about Dorian?

18

No.

19

You never heard any of them say anything?

20

They probably was, but you know,

I wasn't

21

even paying attention to anything that was said.

22

was definitely paying attention to the sounds of the

23

gunshots and what was going on.

24
25

Okay.

Did you ever see Dorian get in the

car that he was by, a white Monte Carlo?

Did it

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Page 25

1
2

appear to you he got in the car?


A

Yes,

I saw him, he's in the car about the

time that Mike Brown's body hit the ground.

4
5

6
7

So I see him inside the car and


Q

Do you actually see him in the car or you

are assuming?
A

Yeah,

I see him in the car kind of sitting

and then,

like I said, when I see his body laying

there now and it is done and over with,

I see two

10

more cops come there, but then probably a little bit

11

before that is when I noticed Dorian had left, the

12

white car left.

13

Okay.

14

No,

15

Did you see him any time after that when

16

You didn't see Dorian any more?

I didn't see him then.

this investigation was going on at the complex?

17

I don't remember seeing him then.

18

Had you ever seen Dorian before?

19

In the streets, no.

20

So you didn't know Dorian?

21

No,

22

I asked you to describe him, what do you

23

I don't remember seeing him.

remember about him?

24

I just remember some dreads.

25

Okay.

You really couldn't identify him if

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