You are on page 1of 250

State of Missouri v.

Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 126

Yes,

You saw one shot?

The one to the head that

I saw him.

killed him.

You actually witnessed that?

Yes.

That's not just something

that someone told you?

No,

10

I actually seen it.

Because my issue is and

11

coming into today, before you were even telling me

12

some things different from before, and I understand.

13

Some of the things you heard you saw before you

14

actually just heard from other people; is that

15

right?

16

Yeah.

17

Is that correct.

18

Yeah.

19

So you didn't actually see

20

those things?

21

No.

22

Okay.

I just want to make

23

sure you are in here today and you are telling me

24

you saw that one shot,

25

just not what someone told you versus what you

I want to make sure that's

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 127

actually saw, because now is your opportunity, okay?

Okay.

You can see our concern, right,

because beforehand you told us what you saw that you

saw and now you came in here and say you actually

heard it, you said that initially.

sure, you know, if we are going to put a case

together and put you on the witness stand, we need

to be sure that you are telling us what you actually

10

saw versus what you heard from people on the street.

We need to be

11

You understand?

12

Yeah.

13

So, I mean, now is your

14

opportunity, okay?

15
16
17
18

I'm telling you I just told

you everything.
You said you heard two shots
inside the house and you came out

19

And heard eight more, yes.

20

Okay.

But as

said,

21

what we are trying to do is evaluate witnesses here

22

and evaluate this case, okay.

23

this point if we were going to charge this case and

24

go to trial there is just no way I could put you on

25

the witness stand and there's a couple reasons for

And I can tell you at

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 128

1
2

that, okay.
The first is, basically just about

everything that you said on August 13th, and much of

what you said today isn't consistent with the

physical evidence that we have in this case, okay.

And now what you are telling us today is

actually substantially less detailed than what you

said on August 13th and I understand that and we

talked about it, all right.

But then also what you

10

told us today is quite a bit different from what you

11

said on August 3rd.

12

have, okay.

13

So those are the issues we

What you are telling me today or on

14

August 13th is not consistent with the physical

15

evidence we have, okay.

16

to change, that's just not just someone else

17

talking, okay.

Evidence that is not going

That's what the evidence is.

18

And

19

evidence, he is talking about the scientific

20

evidence and things like that, not what other people

21

are saying.

22

is talking about the

Right.

I'm talking about

23

DNA evidence, I'm talking about just simple things

24

like the way the scene was laid out, right.

25

you're telling me,

What

it is just not consistent with

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 129

what happened that day.

All right.

concern, you understand?

Yes.

I mean,

And that's our

can you explain that

to me?

I want to know if you say

from a different perspective, why would you ask the

witness everybody's perspective wouldn't be the same

because there is different angles.

10
11

Exactly, that's why I'm


saying.

12

(Inaudible)

13

I'm not saying other people

14

are saying other things you must be lying here,

15

that's not what I'm saying.

16

not from someone else's perspective, okay, or what

17

another witness said.

18

physical,

So what am I saying that


don't match up?

21
22

I'm talking about actual

forensic evidence at the scene, okay.

19
20

What I'm telling you is

That's what you need to tell


me.

23

There's no telling you.

24

That's what I'm wondering

25

is,

can you explain to me why that's the case?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 130
Again, I'm telling you what

I saw.

Not what you say, you know, I'm telling you

what I saw from my perspective.

been brought down to tell you my perspective of

what's going on.

That's why I have

Well, and so you substantially

changed, right, before you had a whole other

narrative and now you are coming here and explain to

us well, a lot of that is what people were telling

10

you?

11

Didn't you all just say let

12

you know that we were outside to tell you what I

13

seen and not heard.

14

Right, exactly right.

Before

15

we came in here we said to you make sure you just

16

that us what you saw and not what people said to

17

you.

18

And let me make it very

19

clear about that, there is certain things that you

20

said you saw back on August 13th, we're actually

21

thinking

22
23

That people told me, yes.


, you know,

(inaudible)

24

you know, we go before the FBI, this is a federal

25

investigation, so you can't tell a story.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 131

And honestly, you have never done this

before, correct, you have never been before a court

or anything like that?

No.

Would you lie if you didn't

see Michael Brown shot if you didn't, would you lie

about that?

No.

That's all well and good,

10

okay, that's fine.

11

August 13th you told the police, you told the FBI

12

things like you saw the police officer after that

13

first shot to the head.

14

first shot you saw to the head that Michael Brown

15

fell to the ground on his side and the police

16

officer stood over him and fired four more shots

17

into his body.

18

But the point is that on

The shot that you saw, the

You said that you saw that, okay.

Now today, to your credit, you've told us

19

no, that's not what I saw, that's just something

20

that I heard, but you understand that you told the

21

FBI that back on August 13th that you saw it.

22

What I'm telling you about

23

what I heard, I'm telling you about how I was going

24

down the steps and I'm hearing shots still ringing

25

off and terrifying to get even to the bottom of the

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 132

steps because I still hear shots ringing off.


That's understandable.

That is

all we are trying to figure out what you, yourself,

actually saw versus what you thought might have

happened based on what you were hearing.

What I'm going to say --

You understand

Just listen to me.

There is

not no thought if I know for a fact

10

Can I explain generalities of

11

forensics.

12

discuss or argue about it.

13

measure against every testimony here is what we know

14

to be forensics because that is irrefutable.

15

Not discussing, we're not here to


But everything we

It is not he was at this perspective or

16

that perspective, but here is how he changes.

17

know whether or not Michael Brown was shot at point

18

blank range in the head based on that, yes or no, we

19

know that.

20

We

We are here today to tell you what you are

21

saying you saw isn't forensically possible based on

22

the evidence.

23

And that's just an example.

24

Virtually everything that you told the FBI on

25

August 13th doesn't match up with the evidence,

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 133

So you're telling me he

didn't get shot in the head at point blank range?

What we are telling you is

that the physical evidence doesn't match up with

what you are telling us.

okay.

8
9

That's just an example,

The entire layout of the scene is entirely


different than what you described, okay.

And when

10

you come in here today and substantially change you

11

say you saw and what you claim you saw on

12

August 13th, that leads me to believe that maybe you

13

didn't see this.

14

to tell me, okay.

15

And if that's the case, you need

We're not even saying this,

16

first of all.

When you are running down the stairs,

17

you say a lot of people were out there, you said you

18

were scared, that's --

19
20

23

leave?

don't feel too comfortable right now.

21
22

tell you can I

Okay.

Now, if you want to

go, that's fine.


You can go outside.

24

I ain't feeling comfortable.

25

Why aren't you feeling

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 134

comfortable?

You are telling me I didn't

see what I saw.

happened, they did it to me last time I was here and

try to tell me.

This is not the first time that it

The reason the FBI

challenged you when you gave the statement before

was because they knew at that time that what you

were saying didn't add up with the physical

10

evidence, okay.

11

You would agree that is right?

12

If you all knew the physical

13

evidence, why would there be a need for a witness if

14

you have the evidence already.

15

You have to have people that

16

actually saw it, that's what we are trying to say,

17

okay.

We're the prosecutors on this case,

18

okay.

And we have to evaluate the case and

19

determine whether or not there are going to be

20

charges and whether or not we would take it to

21

trial.

22

And so we would have to meet with the

23

witnesses and talk to them, particularly the ones

24

who were concerned that what their saying doesn't

25

match up with the physical evidence.

We have to

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 135

evaluate that.

If I didn't see what I saw,

why for the first two or three weeks I was being

harassed.

5
6

Who were you being harassed


by?

7
8

Police go to my mother's
house if I didn't see what I saw?

9
10

To try to interview you, you


mean?

11

No, they came to my mother's

12

house, tried to swarm my mother's house.

People at

13

my back door, at my side window and at the front

14

door and I didn't even live there at the time.

15

When was this?

16

It happened in the same week

17

of him getting killed, the same week.

18

know for a fact that someone came down and burnt his

19

memorial.

20
21
22

And then to

That happened more recently,


right.
Yes, I smelt it burning.

23

Didn't nobody try to put the fire out, no nothing.

24

It took an African-American Ferguson police officer

25

to come with a fire extinguisher to put it out after

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 136

1
2

it was burning for 30 some minutes.


There were other people, other Ferguson

police sitting on their cars looking at it.

then to tell me I'm lying.

And

There is a lot that went on

in the aftermath of the shooting.

A lot of people

were scared because they heard gunshots.

people were talking, so the problem is that

sometimes people, you know, thought they saw

A lot of

10

something, really it was because other people were

11

talking so much.

12

So our job is to figure out what each

13

individual actually saw and noticed.

14

going on in the community, so that's why we wanted

15

to meet with you.

16

Not what was

I'm telling you all right,

17

I'm sorry, I'm telling you what I saw, I seen the

18

man execute my best friend.

19

You don't have to speak any

20

more, it was voluntary.

21

you to talk to us any more.

22

coming in, thank you.

23

So we certainly don't want


So we do thank you for

Thank you.

24

MS.

25

MS. ALIZADEH:

End recording at 11:26 a.m.


And actually, it is

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 137

12:26 p.m., and I imagine your lunch is here.

we'll go ahead and take a lunch break and,

can you finalize whatever the disc that we need to

do and then let us know when you are done with your

lunch break and we'll start up with more evidence

and witnesses.

7
8

So

(End of the audio recorded interview of


.)

MS. ALIZADEH:

This is Kathi Alizadeh with

10

the prosecutor's office.

11

It is one 1:11 p.m.

12

from the prosecutor's office, as well as all 12

13

grand jurors are present and the court reporter, who

14

is taking down the testimony of witnesses and

15

recording proceedings in the grand jury.

16
17

It is October 16th, 2014.

Sheila Whirley is also present

We have our first witness for the


afternoon and he is ready to be sworn.

18

19

of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to

20

testify the truth, the whole truth, and

21

nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid,

22

deposes and says in reply to oral

23

interrogatories, propounded as follows, to-wit:

24

EXAMINATION

25

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 138

1
2

BY MS. ALIZADEH:
why don't you state your name and

then you're going to want to spell it so we get it

right.

How you guys doing?

Okay.

My name is

6
7

Now,

I'm going to stand all

the way back here.

And, urn, the microphone that is

in front of you it doesn't amplify your voice, it is

10

only recording, so you're going to have to keep your

11

voice up.

12

the grand jurors can't hear you, they're going to

13

raise their hand and say what, we can't hear.

14

best to just try to speak loudly enough, you know.

15

I naturally do anyway, my kids say I'm yelling at

16

them, but I don't want you to not be heard, okay?

You tend to have a softer voice, so if

It is

17

Okay.

18

So, can I call you

19

Yes.

20

21

I'm

22

And I want to just clarify something, you

23

how old are you?


years old.

introduced yourself to the grand jury as

24
25

Yes.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 139

Is that the name you were born with?

Yes.

Okay.

Now, a recording of a statement

that was made by you on August 13th, where you said

your name was

something like that.

,
Is that the same person?

Urn, no, it was just a heritage thing.

just had where my roots was from,

learning about it.

10
11

Okay.

so I was just

You're going to have to talk

No,

it was just a heritage thing that I

13

had just learned about, me and my uncle were

14

discussing it, so me and my lawyer.

15

But the person that was in that statement

Yes, that's

18

Okay.

20

, that's you?

who said his name was

17

19

And so today do you prefer that we

call you

or do you want to be

21

I want to be

23

All right.

24

I live in Northwinds Apartments in

22

25

louder.

12

16

or

, that's my

name.
So,

, where do you live?

Ferguson, Missouri.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 140

How long have you lived in Ferguson?

Since I was about

3
4

I guess since

eighth grade or middle school.


Q

Okay.

Do you currently, do you go to

school?

No.

Did you go to high school?

Yes.

Where did you go to high school?

10

11

12

And when you were in high school, did you

have a friend named Michael Brown?

13

Yes, he was one of my best friends.

14

And how long have you known Michael Brown?

15

Urn,

it goes back to me knowing his family

16

when I was young, but we had just reunited like

17

around,

18

school.

19

old neighborhood and that's how I found out that I

20

knew him and his family for a long time.

21
22
23
24
25

I say around my freshman year of high


And his uncle really recognized me from the

So did you and Michael Brown start

becoming good friends like early high school?


A

Yes, we was around each other every day up

until the day he died.


Q

Okay.

Now, did he also go to

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 141

2
3

for

about a year.

Yes, he went to

Was that like his last year or his

freshman year?

It was his freshman year.

So did he also live in Northwinds?

Yes, he did.

He lived with his

grandmother directly across the street from me.

10

How long have you been living, now I know

11

he was staying with you for a while right before he

12

passed, right?

13

Yeah,

14

Okay.

15

I say about two or three weeks.


But before he was staying with you,

he was living with his grandmother in Northwinds?

16

He was bouncing back from houses to

17

houses.

He had another grandma that lived in Pine

18

Lawn that he was also staying with at the time.

19

that's where he going to school.

20

graduated from Normandy because he lived in Pine

21

Lawn with his daddy's mother.

And

He actually

22

So would he hang out in Canfield with you?

23

Yes.

24

Do you know, did he have a car at the

25

time?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 142

No, he did not have a car.

We actually

had a friend that used to chauffeur us around.

used to give him gas money when we needed rides to

go places.

So when he was staying elsewhere, you guys

would still see each other every day?

Uh, yeah, he would come over after school.

We would just go to his granny's house and play

video games and just hang out and just chill.

10
11

Okay.

And are you, were you and Mike the

same age?

12

No,

13

A year older than him?

14

Yes.

15

Do you know Dorian Johnson?

16

Yes.

17

And how do you know Dorian?

18

A friend of the family again.

19

We

I was a year older than him.

I known

from myoId neighborhood since I've been young.

20

And now Dorian is a few years older than

22

Yes, yes.

23

How long have you known Dorian?

24

A couple, few years.

21

25

you?

It has been since I

have been young.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 143

Since you were --

Yes,

Okay.

I guess about middle school years.


And you made some statements in the

past, and I told you we're just going to clarify

some things.

Yeah.

You said before that Dorian was your

8
9

cousin?
A

He was basically family,

like blood could

10

not make us any more related.

I grew up around him

11

and all his brothers, so I look at him as family.

12

There is no blood relation?

13

Not really blood, blood.

14

All right.

15

Yeah,

16

What about Michael Brown, are you related

17
18

But you feel like he's family?

I feel like he's family.

to Michael Brown?
A

We are not blood related.

Only way we

19

would have blood relation is through his youngest

20

siblings, his younger brother and his younger

21

sister.

22
23
24
25

Okay.

And how so, how are you related

through siblings?
A

I had found out after he had got murdered

that we was all at his granny's house in Northwinds.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 144

And one of my relatives that I know for a fact is my

relative showed up and he was like, you didn't know

these were your little cousins, honestly I didn't

know until he told me.

after the fact we kind of are relation.

Do you know how it is that your relation,

your father's sister is married to?

No, no,

Okay.

10
11
12

And that's how I found out

it is my father's nephew kids.


So your father's nephew is Michael

Brown's father?
A

No, it was his, not his father, his two

youngest siblings father.

13

Okay.

14

They had different fathers.

15

Gotcha.

16

So Michael Brown has siblings

that have a different father?

17

Yes.

18

So you're related?

19

To his younger siblings, yeah.

20

Okay, gotcha.

21

You didn't learn that until

after you said that he had passed, right?

22

Yes, it was after.

23

So when you knew Michael Brown, you just

24
25

consider him a friend?


A

Yeah, one of my best friends.

We was

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 145

1
2

together almost every day.


Q

Okay.

And so what about Dorian Johnson,

do you know how long prior to Michael's death that

Dorian Johnson had moved into the Canfield

Apartment?

I knew he was living over there for a

while, it is just I never did see him or get in

contact with him until about two months before this

end up happening.

10
11
12
13

So I would have to say around

either Mayor June.


Q

Okay.

How close a friend were you prior

to Michael's death, how close were you and Dorian?


A

We were close, but I knew him more because

14

of his little brother.

His little brother is the

15

same age as me.

16

Johnson mostly was through his younger siblings.

So that's really how I knew Dorian

17

So he was a family friend?

18

Yes.

19

But you were closer to his younger

20

brother?

21

Yes.

22

Okay.

23
24
25

So Dorian Johnson didn't hang out

with you and Mike every day?


A

Uh, the two months prior to it happening

when we found out he moved over there, he was also

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 146

with us every day.

He would be with you every day too?

Yes, we go over to his house and play

video games,

called him.

Okay.

That's what I call him.

Is it okay if I call him Big Mike?

Yeah,

10
11

same thing that me and Big Mike I

it is all right.

I don't have no

problem with it.


Q

So let's talk about then the early morning

12

hours of August 9th.

13

that you and Mike, he was staying at your house; is

14

that right?

15

Yes.

16

And let me ask you this; where were you

17
18
19

We've heard your statements

staying at the time?


A

I was staying with my sister at the time

where she lived in Canfield.

20

So your house was in Northwinds?

21

My mother's house was in Northwinds.

22

sister also had her own apartment in Canfield.

23

And you were staying with her?

24

Yeah,

25

My

I was staying with her.

He was

going through a couple things with his family and

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 147

since we was just best friends,

every day staying over there.

something,

him just like a little brother.

I helped him out.

he was just with me


If he needed

I basically look at

And so prior to August 9th when he got

killed, how long had he been staying with you at

your sister's house?

It was about two weeks.

Okay.

So right in front of you is a laser

10

pointer, right here.

So if you press on that gray

11

button right there,

12

at the map,

13

All right.

14

So I'm going to give that to you.

see how you can point at things

okay?

I'm

15

going to direct your attention to this map, which is

16

Grand Jury Exhibit Number 25.

17

streets and the buildings and stuff as being the

18

Canfield Green Apartment Complex?

19

Yes.

20

Okay.

21

Do you recognize the

Using the laser pointer,

can you

point to the building where your sister's place is?

22

I would say it would have to be around,

23

don't know,

24

looks kind of different.

25

to be over, okay,

it looks different from the sky view,

I
it

I would say it would have

it had to be over here.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 148

1
2
3

(indicating)
Q

So let's just, for clarity sake, West

Florissant is over here.

(indicating)

It was over here exactly then.

All right.

And so you're pointing at

Building Number

Yes.

And so what floor did she live on?

She lives on the third floor so I could

10

see looking out of the window that I was in,

11

see the whole Canfield Drive.

12

I could

So can you tell me what, where in this

13

building,

I guess, obviously, there's units that

14

face this way, right?

15

16

Or east, and there's units that face west?

17

It was a unit that's facing directly

18
19

(Nods head.)

towards the street, directly towards Canfield.


Q

All right.

I know you don't necessarily

20

want to give her address, but this one unit that's

21

on the northern part of the building, that's

22

and then the southern part of the building is

23

was she on northern part or southern part?

24
25

She had to be on the southern part, the

closest to Canfield Drive, the closest.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 149

Okay.

And we've heard some testimony

already about these apartments.

These apartments

have a front door that you go into?

Yes.

And there's also a sliding door?

Yes.

And there's bedrooms that have windows?

Yes.

So from the sliding glass door in your

10

sister's apartment,

11
12

can you see down onto Canfield?

Urn, no, not through the sliding glass

doors, but through the bedroom window you can.

13

Okay.

Is it a bedroom window that faces

14

west or is there a window on this side on this other

15

side?

16
17

This is a window on this side that faces

right towards Canfield.

18

Here?

19

Yes.

20

Or here?

21

The sliding door is on that side.

22

Right.

23

But the window is right there, which would

24
25

be my nephew's bedroom which I was staying in.


Q

So the window that you are going to talk

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 150

about here in a minute is on the southern side of

the building?

Yes.

And from here you can look out onto

Canfield?

Yes.

Okay.

So on the early morning hours on

August 9th, that evening, like the night before and

into the early morning hours, was Mike with you?

10

Yes, he was.

11

What were you guys doing?

12

Urn, we really was not doing too much.

He

13

was just, I don't know if he was going through a

14

phase, but we just, mostly we did a whole lot of

15

talking that night.

16

about God, just about the problems that we've been

17

going through.

18

Because the cable was off at that time, we didn't

19

really have nothing to do.

20

of talking.

21

Was anybody else with you?

22

Yes.

We did a whole lot of talking

We just did a whole lot of talking.

We just did a whole lot

My sister and my sister's fiancee

23

and my two nephews, that's who I

24

house.

25

live with at the

Are your nephews, are they teenagers?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 151

No, they're little, little kids.

Does your sister's fiancee live in that

apartment too?

Yes.

And your sister lives there?

Yes.

So you said that you were talking about

things you were going through, problems?

Yeah,

just like little problems.

10

having problems with my mother, he was having

11

problems just trying to find hisself.

12

arguments he would get into with his family,

13

know,

14

was

Just little
you

just basically family problems.


Q

Okay.

And I

know you've talked about in

15

your interviews and stuff, they asked you were you

16

guys smoking any weed that night?

17

Not that night I

19

Did you see Mike smoking any weed that

20

night?

21

No,

22

Did Mike ever leave the apartment and then

18

no.

23

come back?

24

25

didn't smoke with him,

I did not.

He did.

He left for about 30 minutes and

came back.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 152

About what time of night was that?

It was around 11 something when he left,

and came back it was around 11.

night?

Okay.

Did you guys stay up most of the

Yes, we did stay up most of the night just

sitting up talking.

I was on the phone with a lady

friend, he had my sister's phone,

he was doing at the time, but he had my sister's

I don't know what

10

phone.

I don't know if he was on Facebook,

11

know what he was doing at that time.

I don't

12

Okay.

So Mike didn't have his own phone?

13

He had his own phone, but a couple days

14

prior to that his battery had went out on his phone,

15

and I guess it had fried his phone out or something.

16

He didn't have no phone at the time.

17

18

that night?

19

20

Okay.

So what time did you go to sleep

I didn't go to sleep until 5:00 that

morning.

21

But you did eventually go to sleep?

22

Yes.

23

Where did you go to sleep, did you go to

24
25

bed or did you just kind of pass out in a chair?


A

No,

I had passed out in the love seat in

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 153

the living room, and I say around about 7:00 or

8:00 I got up and went and laid with my nephews.

4
5

Where was Big Mike when you passed out on

the sofa?
A

He was on the bigger sofa, longer one.

He

was laying there sleeping when I had woke up from

when I went in there to get in bed with my nephews.

Okay.

Just again to clarify,

I cannot

remember if it was my term or your term, you said

10

passed out.

11

night?

12

Were you drinking any alcohol that

No,

I don't know.

I was just, I'm more of

13

a staying up at night person.

14

sometimes I just can't help it, I just pass out

15

sometimes because I stay up most of the nights.

16
17

I'm a night owl.

When you say pass out, you just kind of

like fall asleep?


just dozed off.

18

19

Dozed off, wherever you were sitting?

20

Yeah, basically.

21

So when you got up at 7:00, let me back

22

up, passed out or fell asleep, was Mike Brown in

23

your apartment?

24
25

So

Yes, he was already sleeping by the time I

had passed out.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 154

When you woke up like at 7:00 in the

morning, or whatever, and went to your nephew's

room, was he still in the same place?

Yes, he was still asleep.

Okay.

And just again, so I can clarify,

did Mike Brown like go to sleep, was he wearing

pajamas or was he wearing street clothes?

9
10
11

No, he had on the same clothes that he got

killed in, he had on the same clothes.


Q

So you went to your nephews' room and went

to bed?

12

Yes.

13

What's the next thing you remember

14
15

happening?
A

Uh, he came in there, my sister had asked

16

him because I was being lazy at that time, my sister

17

had asked him could he put my nephews in the car

18

because my mother came to come get my nephews and my

19

sister, and my sister is pregnant now.

20

couldn't carry them down the stairs, so he went and

21

put them in the car and he came back upstairs and he

22

asked me could he use my cell phone.

23

Okay.

Let me stop.

So she

Remember when we

24

talked about assuming things, you only need to say

25

what you know or saw, okay.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 155

I asked you what's the next thing you

remember, okay.

So you woke up?

Yeah, he woke me up to use my cell phone.

Okay.

Yes.

And the stuff about him helping your

So Michael Brown came into the

room?

sister, you didn't see that?

I was asleep at the time.

10

Okay.

11

I just woke up and there was nobody there

12
13
14

but just him.


Q

All right.

You woke up, he's in your

bedroom and he asked to use your cell phone?

15

Yes.

16

Do you know what time it is at this point?

17

I guess it was around, 10:00, 11:00,

18
19
20

between 10:00 and 11:00.


Q

All right.

And was Mike Brown wearing the

same clothes you seen him in the night before?

21

Yes.

22

Was there anyone with him when he came

23

into your room?

24

Not when he came into my room.

25

Did you know, did you get up from the

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 156

bedroom and go out into the apartment?

No, he stepped out of the room and used my

phone, and tossed me back the phone and told me, me

and Dorian's going to walk to the store,

right back.

I'll be

That's the last thing he told me.

So at this point had you seen Dorian that

morning?

No, he didn't come in.

Don't guess.

10

He wasn't in my house because I was up by

11

that time moving around.

12

You didn't see him?

13

No, he wasn't in the house at the time,

15

All right.

16

Yes, he left.

17

All right.

18

Brown left?

19

14

no.

Urn,

Did Michael Brown leave?

What did you do after Michael

I still was laying down, but I wasn't

20

asleep,

21

mine and we were just talking.

22
23
24
25

I was on the phone with a lady friend of

Did something happen that drew your

attention to the outside?


A

Yes.

I heard, urn,

I say around,

least 30 minutes later I heard a gunshot.

I say at
And

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 157

that's what draw my attention to look out the

window.

4
5

Now, when you heard this, did you

immediately realize it was a gunshot?


A

Yes, yes, no,

I'm familiar with gunshots.

The difference between fireworks and gunshots.

mean, it was loud, it echoed through all the

apartments, it was very, very loud.

10
11
12

Was it one gunshot or more than one

gunshot?
A

I heard more than one gunshot, that's what

drew my attention.

13

Did you get up from the bed?

14

Yes.

15

What did you do?

16

I went and looked out the window.

17

So the window,

18

is it in your nephew's

bedroom?

19

Yes.

20

Is there a window covering on the window?

21

Yes.

22

Blinds, drapes?

23

Yeah, there's some blinds.

24

Were the blinds open or closed?

25

They were closed, but I was looking

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 158

1
2
3

through the blinds.


Q

Do you remember was the window open or

closed?

Uh,

I can't recall.

Would you, now, this would have been

around noon on an August day.

she have air conditioning in the apartment?

Yes.

Okay.

10

Did your sister, did

Did she run the air conditioning,

did she use it?

11

At the time it was broke.

12

Bolt?

13

Broke.

14

Oh, it was broke?

15

Yes.

16

Do you remember when you made your first

17

statement to the police?

18

window was closed, or do you not remember?

19

Do you remember saying the

I don't remember saying the window was

20

closed.

21

loud, that's what got my attention.

22

I just know I heard the gunshot was really

I get that,

I understand.

My question is,

23

do you know today, do you have a recollection of

24

whether the window was open or closed?

25

No.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 159

You don't know, okay.

But you did hear

the gunshot?

Yes.

And then when you looked out the window,

5
6

7
8

9
10

what did you see?


I seen my friend Big Mike on his knees

with his hands in the air.


Okay.

pointer and with the laser pointer show me where Big


Mike was on his knees, where you saw it?

11

12

right here.

13

14
15
16
17

So can you pick up that laser

I was right here, he was around this area


(indicating)

Was he in the street, on the sidewalk, in

the grass?
A

He was on the street, smack dab in the

middle of the street down the yellow line.


Q

Okay.

Now, you moved the pointer quite a

18

bit while you were doing that.

19

it doesn't have to be exact, but the best you can

20

recall?

21
22
23
24
25

street.
Q

If you can,

I know

He was right there in the middle of the


(indicating)
So you've got the pointer right around the

E or L of Canfield?
A

Yes.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 160

Okay, all right.

And so from your vantage

point, you could see his whole body?

No,

I could just see like the back part of

it from where I was standing,

could only see an officer.

I couldn't see,

But I could see his back with his hands in

the air.

So if Mike Brown's back was to you.

10

Yes.

11

Where was the officer?

12

In front of Mike Brown.

13

So use the pointer for me and point,

I'm

14

going to show you how I want you to do this.

So if

15

Mike Brown is here, was he facing that way, was he

16

facing that way,

17

a line in the direction that Mike Brown was facing.

so point where he is and then make

18

He was facing this way.

19

So he was facing like Caddiefield Road

20

right here?

21

22

my window,

23

me.

24
25

Yes, but from my vantage point, like from


it was like his back was turned towards

What about the officer, what direction was

he facing?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 161

1
2

He was directly in front of Mike Brown.

say about four to five feet.

So he was in front of Mike Brown?

Yes.

But which way was the officer facing?

He was facing towards him.

He was in front of Mike, but facing

towards him?

Yes.

10

Okay.

11
12

What about a vehicle, did you see

any cars?
A

The vehicle was parked a little bit

13

further up, and I didn't notice the vehicle until

14

after I got outside and got to the bottom of the

15

steps and came outside.

16

bit, going towards West Florissant like it had came

17

from the other way.

18

Okay.

The vehicle was up a little

So let's stop there.

So you said

19

that you didn't notice the vehicle until you came

20

down afterward?

21
22
23

Until I actually got down after, after he

was already assassinated.


Q

Do you remember when you made a statement,

24

you drew a picture and you said they were right next

25

to the vehicle?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 162

I didn't say they were right next to the

vehicle, now I remember saying that, but I didn't

say they were right next to the vehicle.

they was parked a couple feet away from him, but it

wasn't right next to him,

West Florissant.

I said

like it was going towards

drawn?

yet and I will, but I'm going to show you a picture.

10

Do you remember the picture that got


I'm going to show you,

Do you remember this,

I haven't marked it

is that your signature?

11

Yes.

12

Do you remember doing that?

13

Yes.

14

So you remember that this square here was

15

supposed to be the officer's car?

16

Yes.

17

And then this MB, that circle is where

18

Mike Brown was, you told the officer that's Mike

19

Brown, right?

20

Yes.

21

And you told the officer that was labeling

22

this, that the distance between Mike Brown and the

23

officer's car was approximately 5 feet?

24

Yes.

25

Okay.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 163

But that wasn't close.

pointing towards West Florissant,

was right next to him.

The car was


I didn't say it

Okay.

Do you know how long 5 feet is?

It is not really that long.

Like I'm 5'1".

So if I'm this far away

from you, that's like 5 feet.

close to Mike Brown?

Yes.

10

Okay.

11
12

Was the car that

So you realize that if Mike

Brown-A

But if he was right here,

I couldn't

13

really tell because the building is in the way.

14

can only see what I saw was the officer and Mike

15

Brown until I got all the way to the bottom of the

16

steps and came and come across the parking lot.

17

In your statement that you said that he

18

was next to the vehicle and you helped them draw the

19

picture and you said the vehicle was behind Mike

20

Brown about 5 feet,

21

behind Mike Brown?

you didn't see the vehicle

22

No.

23

Okay.

24

No, until I got down there that I actually

25

So that wasn't correct?

saw the car.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 164

2
3

What about the officer, did you see the

officer get out of the vehicle?


A

No, by the time I got all ready, by the

time I looked out the window, he was already out of

his vehicle with a gun drawn.

Okay.

So now the officer was close to

Mike Brown when you say he's in front of him facing

Mike Brown?

Yes, it was point blank range.

10

Since I don't know what you mean by point

11

blank range, were they this close?

12

It was about, yes.

13

So maybe 4 feet away?

14

Yeah,

15

Was it close enough that the officer had

4 to 5 feet away.

16

reached out he might be able to touch Mike Brown's

17

head or face?

18

Yes.

19

All right.

20

And you say that the officer

had his gun drawn?

21

Yes.

22

And where was the gun pointing?

23

Towards the top of his skull.

24

Mike Brown's?

25

Yes.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 165

2
3

And at this point you say Mike Brown is

kneeling?
A

Yes, he is on his knees.

For him to kneel

down, he was still tall, he was at least about 6'3"

or 6'4".

He was tall?

He was real tall.

So do me a favor,

idea of what you mean.

, so we can get an

Can you come across here and

10

maybe like right here so that everybody can see you.

11

Position yourself the way you saw Mike Brown when

12

you first looked out your window.

13
14
15

I looked out my window,

I saw Mike Brown,

he was on his knees like this.


Q

Okay.

So, for the record, you're kneeing

16

down and that your hands are at about the height of

17

your face,

18

19

20

correct?
(Nods head.)
And your palms, your fingers are pointing

to the ceiling?

21

He was surrendering.

22

And your palms are facing forward;

23

right?

24

25

is that

Yes.
MS. ALIZADEH:

You can go ahead and sit

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed b

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 166

back down.

2
3

(By Ms. Alizadeh) And now, at that time

could you tell if Mike Brown had been shot?


See, again, that was speculation that I

heard.

shot, but from what I heard he did get shot.

didn't know that personally.

Well, you know,

it is important to talk

about--

10
11

I couldn't actually you tell if he had got

That why I say I didn't see him shot

personally, but that's what I was told.

12

All right.

I'm not asking you what people

13

told you or what you think happened.

I want to know

14

what you saw.

15

with his hands up and the officer is in front of

16

him?

So you said Mike Brown's kneeling

17

Yes.

18

About 3 or 4 feet away?

19

Yes.

20

With his gun pointed at Mike Brown at the

21

top of his skull?

22

Yes.

23

What color was the gun?

24

I was a little too far back to tell,

25

honestly, tell what color the gun was.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 167

Okay.

You saw Mike Brown leave your

apartment that day, when you looked out and saw him,

can you recognize that that was Mike Brown?

Yes, the reason why I recognize it was

Mike Brown is because, first off,

nobody that big was that young.

that big since we have been freshman.

another reason why I knew it was him.

I didn't know
Like he had been
So that's

The second reason why I knew it was

10

him,

11

pants that he had on when he left my apartment.

12
13

I recognize him by his socks and his khaki

But with him kneeling down, you mean, you

weren't getting a full body view of him?

14

But his legs were long and him on his

15

knees and his back was towards me,

16

lower half of his body.

17
18

Okay.

I could see the

When he left your apartment that

day, how about, was he wearing a hat?

19

Yes, yes, he was.

20

Okay.

21

St. Louis Cardinals hat.

22

What color was it?

23

Red, it was snapback, it wasn't a fitted

All right, was it a baseball style cap?

24
25

What kind of hat?

cap.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 168

It is the hat

with the snaps on the back like you can adjust it.

3
4

Yes, it was a snapback.

Sure.

Could you see that hat on him when

he was kneeling down?

No.

You didn't see the hat?

He didn't have a hat on.

Did you see the hat at all when you looked

No,

9
10
11
12

out?
I didn't see the hat until I actually

got there close enough to see everything.


Q

So when you saw him kneeling down, he was

13

wearing what you remember he was wearing what he had

14

on, but no hat?

15

Yes, he had on a gray T-shirt, he had on

16

some khaki shorts, he had on some marijuana socks,

17

they were yellow with green marijuana leafs on it,

18

and he had on some white and black Nike flip flops.

19

Now, this is one of those things I want to

20

make sure that this is what you remember seeing as

21

opposed to, like that day, as opposed to after you

22

got down to the scene.

23
24
25

You remember that's what he had on?


A

Yes,

I know exactly that's what he had on

when he left my apartment that day.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 169

Do you remember what your sister's fiancee

was wearing that night?

No,

I can't recall that.

I cannot.

How about what your sister was wearing

that night?

She was in the bed, I don't think she was

doing too much, she was pregnant so, she wasn't

really doing too much moving around at the time.

So, you know,

, one of the things I'm

10

wanting to kind of figure out is if your memory of

11

what he was wearing is based upon the fact that you

12

saw him down at the scene when you went down there

13

as opposed to what you really remember that he had

14

on the night before?

15

I know exactly what he had on cause he

16

didn't change clothes because he couldn't get into

17

his grandmother's house to get more clothes, cause

18

that's where his clothes and belongings were at.

19

Only thing he had brought to my house was some

20

stereo speakers and his laptop.

21
22

two weeks he was staying at your house?

23
24
25

So he wore those same clothes for like the

No, not for two weeks,

just like a couple

So then did you see the officer actually

days.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 170

fire his weapon point blank at Michael Brown?

Yes.

And did you see the bullet hit him?

Yes,

I seen his body drop.

And when I

seen that,

I ran outside.

On my way downstairs,

heard several more shots.

I didn't actually see

them, but I heard.

So did you actually see Mike Brown fall?

Yes.

10

Was he still on his knees when the shot

11

was fired?

12

As soon as the bullet hit him, he dropped.

13

Okay.

14

Yes.

15

Did he fall forward?

16

Yes.

17

Was he then on his front?

18

Yes.

19

On his stomach?

20

Yes, on his stomach.

21

Facedown?

22

When I got downstairs, he was on his

23
24
25

And you just made a motion forward?

stomach.
Q

Okay.

And so you said you heard after

that first shot, or the second shot, you saw the

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 171

second shot and after that you saw him fall onto the

front, his front?

Yes.

And then you said you started running

downstairs?

Yes.

Okay.

When did you first hear another

series of shots, were you already out of the

apartment?

10

I was out of the apartment.

As soon as I

11

hit the front door and got onto the balcony I heard,

12

at least,

13

like a pause of me running down the steps, and then

14

when I got to the end of the steps I heard several

15

more shots.

16

17
18

19
20
21
22

I say about three to four shots.

Okay.

At that point then did you see what

was going on?


A

I didn't see what was going on, but I

could hear it.


Q

I can't honestly say I did see hit.

After you ran down the steps, did you come

out to the front of the building?


A

Yes,

I ran, it was a grass hill cause they

23

were getting ready to come across,

24

getting ready to come across the grass hill.

25

It was

I guess they was

Who is they?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 172

I guess Dorian and Michael Brown.

Remember, don't guess.

When I ran out of the house,

I ran over to

the grass hill, people were out there crying and

yelling.

boy for nothing, those were my exact words.

8
9

I was just like, they just kill my home

Did you see Dorian Johnson when you were

out there?
A

No,

I didn't see him until I say about

10

five minutes later because I was more worried on

11

going to go tell his family what happened, but by

12

the time I tried to get down to his family's house,

13

his uncle's girlfriend was already coming up the

14

street.

15

And I don't know if she heard about

16

what had happened or if somebody had told her, but

17

she was coming and running up the street.

18

And I guess when she found out it was

19

him, she broke down in tears.

20

walked up to me and he started crying.

21

like sick to his stomach, so he honestly threw up in

22

the parking lot.

23

Okay.

And then Dorian


And he was

So let's back up a little bit.

In

24

your other statement before your first one, you said

25

that you saw Dorian crouching behind a car, a white

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 173

Monte Carlo, and then you later said, no, you didn't

really see that?

That's what the community and what people

was telling me.

Okay.

This is actually what I saw.

So when Dorian ran up to you after you

were already out on the street, Michael Brown is

already dead in the street?

10

Yes.

11

That's the first time you saw Dorian that

12

whole day?

13

Yes.

14

He told you what happened then?

15

He really couldn't tell me.

16

It was a

neighbor that honestly told me what happened.

17

Who told you what happened?

18

It was a neighbor,

I don't honestly know

19

his name.

20

he had got killt

21

People were thinking it was me.

He just left out of

22

here, he just left out of here.

And that's what I

23

was hearing as I was coming down the steps.

24
25

It was just a person I used to see.

Okay.

When

(sic) people thought it was me.

So when you went down to the

street.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 174

Yes.

How close did you get to Michael Brown's

I couldn't get that close.

3
4

body?
There's police

right there by the time I got all the way down there

enough to go to the scene when his family arrived,

it was already, the tape was up and all that.

had called my mother first,

sister, and then I called my cousin and met up with

10
11
12

So I

and then I had called my

my cousin.
Q

So by the time you got down like onto the

ground level, the tape was already up?

13

14

level.

15

stopped in the middle of the grass hill and I just

16

broke down.

17

18
19

No, not when I got down to the ground


I didn't go close enough to his body.

Okay.

So did you see the officers putting

the tape up?


A

No,

I honestly didn't.

I was down trying

20

to go tell his family what happened.

21

to his auntie actually.

22

Okay.

I was talking

Use the laser pointer for me and

23

show me where you walked down to when you came down

24

to see what was going on in the street?

25

There is a grass hill right here.

I came

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 175

across.

(indicating)

Okay, now --

Grass hill was right here.

I know this grass hill.

stopped.

Specifically,

I came across and I

(indicating)

You're saying you came across?

I came across right here.

From up here?

Yes,

10

(indicating)

(indicating)

I came across right here and I

stopped and looked, and I just broke down.

11

Okay.

12

On the grass hill, and then I tried to go

13

back to Northwinds and try to go the Northwinds and

14

try to go talk to his family.

15

Okay.

So when you came down to the scene.

16

Yes.

17

Was Michael Brown's body covered?

18

No.

19

Did you see the officer?

20

I couldn't recall, but I did,

there was a

21

couple officers there.

I don't know if he called

22

backup at first when it first got started or

23

something.

24

Again, don't guess.

25

I'm just saying, there was officers on the

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 176

1
2
3

scene almost immediately.


Q

So by the time you got down there, there

was more than one officer there?

Yes.

All right.

Do you think you got a good

enough look at the officer that shot Michael Brown

that you would know which one is which?

I couldn't even tell.

The only thing I

can remember is he had on a black hat, and I think

10

had on glasses, that's the only thing I can honestly

11

remember.

12
13
14
15

Okay, so backup,

understood you.
A

I don't know if I

He had on what?

A black hat, like a black regular hat and

some glasses.

16

A black hat and glasses?

17

Yes.

18

Okay.

19

I guess his police uniform.


And so the officer, is that the

officer that shot Michael Brown?

20

Yes.

21

Was he wearing a black hat and glasses

22

when he shot him?

23

Yes.

24

Okay.

25

He was Caucasian.

Was he white or black?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 177

With the hat on, could you tell what his

hair looked like?

No,

And so at some point then you said you

I could not.

went to Northwinds to tell Michael Brown's family?

Yes, really I went up to go talk to his

granny.

already coming up the street, and I couldn't see, I

guess--

10
11

So you went to tell his grandmother what

happened?

12
13

By the time I came down, his auntie was

Yes.

By the time I got to Northwinds, she

was already walking out of her parking lot.

14

The grandmother or the aunt?

15

The grandmother.

I had walked past the

16

aunt,

I gave her a hug, she bust out crying.

17

then I'm like, where's grandma?

18

think she's down there.

19

And

I don't know,

So I'm walking towards my house,

20

again, she lives directly across the street from me.

21

And by the time I got to her parking lot, she was

22

already walking.

23
24
25

So when you first talked to the police on

the 13th.
A

Yes.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 178

That was because they came to your house,

right?

Yes.

So you never said anything to the police

or called them and say, hey, I saw it, I need to

talk?

I did not.

I was more intimidated because

after what I had saw and then I was at a family

member's house that lives in Jennings.

10

And my mother called me and she was

11

like, the police are looking for you.

12

what?

13

neighbors told me.

14

the back door, police officers at the back door at

15

my side windows and at the front door.

16

how many it was, but people was calling me and

17

warning me.

18

like I'm the one that had something to do with

19

killing him.

20

Okay.

21

That's how I can say how deep they tried

22

She was like, I don't know.

I'm like, for

Even my

They told me there was people at

I don't know

Like they said, they came to my house

to swarm my house.

23

They didn't have a SWAT team?

24

No, it wasn't nothing like that.

25

With AK-47s.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 179

2
3

That wasn't necessary if only thing you

want to do is talk to me.


Q

All right.

And I understand you were not

wanting to come talk to the police, I get that.

at some point you did go and talk to the police and

you told them about what you saw?

Yes.

And you admit today that at lot of what

9
10
11
12

But

you told them on that day you didn't really see it?
A

Yes, it was more of me just finding out

stuff here and there.


, did you feel any pressure from

13

other people in the complex or Michael Brown's

14

family or did you feel like it was an obligation

15

that you had to say that you saw those things when

16

you really didn't?

17
18

I didn't think it was,

nobody would lie about something.

19
20
21
22

I don't think

So in my mind,

I honestly believe

that's what happened.


Q

Okay.

You now know that you didn't see

those things?

23

I did not.

24

At some point did you hear about the

25

autopsy that was performed by someone that the

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 180

1
2

family had hired?


A

No,

didn't.

didn't hear about

nothing.

You didn't hear about that?

No.

You originally told the officers, or told

the police that you saw the officer stand over Mike

Brown after he fell in the street and stand over him

and shoot him four more times.

10

Yes, that is what I was told,

11

And that would mean he had gunshot wounds

12

yes.

in his back, right?

13

guess.

14

He's laying on his front,

right,

facedown.

15

So any gunshots wounds would have to be entry wounds

16

somewhere on his backside, right?

17

Yes.

18

But you didn't see that?

19

No.

20

But you did hear eight more shots fairly

21
22
23
24
25

quick in succession, right?


A

Yes,

I don't know if it was eight, but I

could say it was more than five.


Q

This is after he was already laying on the

pavement?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 181

Yes, after I seen him drop, yes.

If the officer were to have hit him with

those bullets, again, those bullets would of had to

have come, enter his body from behind, don't you

agree?

Yes.

Okay.

Urn, and first of all, not first of

all,

I wanted to tell you, and Sheila and I talked

to you before you came in.

We're really sorry for

10

your loss of your friend,

and I know that he was

11

your best friend and the two of you were very close.

12

You understand when Sheila and I were talking to

13

you, one of the things we said is we want to have

14

everybody who said they saw part of this come

15

forward so we can figure out what happened.

16

Yes.

17

Okay?

18

Yes, ma'am.

19

You're not in trouble, we just want to

20

hear what you say you saw and they're going to have

21

to figure out what happened, okay.

22

Is what you said today truthful?

23

Yes.

24

Is there anything important that you're

25

leaving out?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 182

No.

Is there anything else that you think this

grand jury needs to know that maybe I didn't ask you

about?

It's just about, not just, I've been

dealing with, trust me,

for,

Harassment, yes,

over there in that area.

I've lived out in Ferguson

I can honestly say about almost six years.

10

I dealt through that growing up

I was even like pulled off of my

11

school bus one time telling me I broke in someone's

12

house.

13

someone's house when I was at school, it is always

14

harassment.

15

questions.

16

just harassment like.

17

And when I asked them why would I break in

They pull up on you and just ask you


Where you going and just all type of,

I should be able to live,

I should be

18

able to feel safe where I live.

19

growing up around this area.

20

the right environment for kids to even have to grow

21

up like.

22

regular day, people walking dogs,

23

playing, that's not the type of scene for anything

24

to go down like that.

25

I've got nephews

I feel like it's not

Even Michael Brown being shot, that was a


kids out there

And then to leave him sitting outside

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 183

for hours so the whole community can see it, kids

and all, I feel like that's the most form of

disrespect.

family.

to sit there and look at.

Not just to Michael Brown, but to his

That's not something they should just have

And then another thing, for his

memorial to be burnt down and for me to honestly see

that with my own eyes, his memorial going up in

flames.

Like there was gasoline poured on it.

Like

10

they tried to say on the news, I don't know if they

11

said on the news, but they said that candles started

12

the memorial to burn it down.

13

Now, I'm out there, I live out there

14

every day.

15

the street.

16

the light pole for it to blow up and make that type

17

of explosion and it's on videotape.

18

family members actually got a video tape of it, he

19

put it on viral, he put it on Facebook viral.

20

The candles are always in the middle of


There was not a candle over there by

One of my

For me to go out and see two

21

Caucasian Ferguson officers sitting by my sister's

22

parking lot sitting on the car looking at it go up

23

in flames.

24
25

And it took the only African-American


that was out there to come put it out with a fire

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 184

extinguisher, that's disrespectful.

feel like that.

And I honestly

And he already got killed, people

throwing dirt on his name and all of this, for his

memorial to be burnt down.

that's right at all.

I don't think that

For a person that was kind hearted

who did nothing to nobody.

Just because he was big

didn't mean a thing, that man had a heart of gold.

10

If he had it, he would given you his leg or vice

11

versa because that was like my brother.

12

You know,

, I think what you are

13

talking about, what has happened since Michael

14

Brown's death.

15
16

Since the death that I have been going

through out there at Ferguson.

17

But it has opened a lot of people's eyes

18

about what really has been going on.

19

understand that both before and after Michael Brown

20

died.

21

And I

What this grand jury is going to have

22

to decide is what's going to happen involving the

23

death of Michael Brown.

24

that happened before that and we can't necessarily,

25

you know, we're not responsible in this proceeding

We can't fix the problems

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 185

to change the future.

I understand what you're saying and a

lot of people are saying the same thing.

need to know, and they might need to know, is there

anything you might have left out and forgotten about

and now you remember?

What I

No, no, that's what I remember seeing.

Okay.
MS. ALIZADEH:

10

I don't have anything else.

Sheila, do you have any questions?

11

MS. WHIRLEY:

I don't.

Grand jurors?

12

13

had a question.

14

when you were harassed by the police or do you know

15

of any situations where he told you a story that he

16

had been harassed?

17

Was Michael Brown ever with you

Not him personally, but me, yes.

Not with

18

him, but we were harassed by -- because Northwinds

19

has and Canfield have security guards.

20

harassed by the security guards that legally got the

21

right to hold guns and all that type of thing.

22

Police-wise me and him together, no.

23

harassed, it was either by myself type of situation.

24
25

MS. ALIZADEH:

We both were

If I was ever

, I forgot to ask you,

do you wear glasses?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 186

No,

2
3

I do not.

MS. ALIZADEH:

Is your vision good without

glasses?

Yes, my vision is very good.

5
6

Do you
know if Michael Brown --

Excuse me,

I didn't hear you.

8
9
10

Michael Brown, has any


kind of job during the summer, after he finished the
school he work?

11

MS. ALIZADEH:

12

Did he have a job?

No, he did not at the time, no.

13

Do you know where did he

14

get the money for the Cigarillos and the marijuana?

15
16

Personally, no.

I can't vouch for that,

don't honestly know.

17

No, thank you.

18

Do you

19

know if Michael had smoked that morning on August

20

the 9th.

21

I honestly don't know,

I honestly don't

22

know.

I don't know the night before if he had

23

smoked when he had left my house and did what he

24

did,

25

together, we did not smoke that morning, at least

I don't know honestly know, but me and him

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 187

not with me he didn't.

I can't honestly say if he

did or didn't, but with me personally he didn't

smoke.

4
5
6

You had
mentioned before that you guys were talking?
A

Yes.

Talking, or early that

morning talking and talking over things of life,

life lessons or whatever?

10

Yes.

11

You and Michael.

And I

12

believe you had mentioned that he was, you're

13

talking about family problems or whatever that some

14

difficulties that you each were experiencing?

15

Yes.

16

In your own lives.

Can

17

you tell me why it was that Michael was living with

18

his grandmother at this point?

19

I honestly don't know.

From my

20

understanding, him and his mother was always in tit

21

for tat.

22

living with his grandmother,

23

But I don't know honestly why he was


I honestly don't.

It was like he was bouncing around

24

from house to house.

Cause at first he was with his

25

grandmother in Pine Lawn when he graduated from high

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 188

school, that's where he was living, but during the

summer he was out there at Northwinds at his other

grandmother's house, which is his mother's house

with me basically almost every day.

don't know why.


MS. ALIZADEH:

7
8

11

where did his mom

live?
A

I know currently right now -MS. ALIZADEH:

10

I honestly

Not now,

last summer, where

was his mom living?


A

She had just got a house I say,

I have to

12

say it was about May she was living on

13

in Dellwood.

14

five minutes away from his grandmother's house.

15
16
17

It really was nothing but like about

MS. ALIZADEH:

But Michael wasn't living

with her?
A

No, we would go over there sometimes and

18

go hang out with his little brother and his little

19

sister, which is basically my little cousins now.

20

MS. ALIZADEH:

Did Mike ever talk to you

21

about why he didn't live with his mom?

22

because he, they had problems, or was it because he

23

liked living with his friends?

24
25

Was it

I honestly don't know what they were going

through between the mother and son relationship,

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 189

that wasn't really none of my business to, you know,

ask him or anything.


MS. ALIZADEH:

friend,

He was like your best

you didn't talk about that?


But that wasn't none of my business, that

was his family.

like put some thoughts in his head or none of that.

So we ain't never talk about that.

9
10
11

Q
grandma?
A

I couldn't really come in between

What about why he wasn't living with his


You said you knew.
That last little week,

I don't know, they

12

was just bickering and arguing a whole lot.

13

got mad,

14

out of the house and then he was at my house.

And he

I guess, they had an argument, he stormed

15

Do you know what they argued about?

16

I don't, because I was already at home, he

17

just came and told me.

18

I don't know what she said she was going to believe,

19

I don't know if was the music thing we were doing. I

20

honestly don't know, but he was just like she don't

21

believe in me or something.

22
23
24
25

MS. WHIRLEY:

She don't believe in me and

Is this the same grandmother

that was in the hospital that you are talking about?


A

Yes, yes.
MS. WHIRLEY:

So she was in the hospital

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 190

1
2

at the time?
Yes.

I don't know if him storming out had

something to do with her going to the hospital or if

it was just a whole bunch of stuff just adding up.

But, yeah, she was in the hospital at the time,

that's why he couldn't go to her house and get any

more clothes because there wasn't nobody there.

There was no family member there or nothing because

she was at the hospital.

10
11
12

MS. WHIRLEY:

So she went to the hospital

after he stormed out?


Yes.

13

MS. ALIZADEH:

14

home on the day of the shooting?

15

But she was there, she was

Yes, she had just came home that day.

16

MS. ALIZADEH:

I'm sorry.

17

You know,

18

I think part of the responsibility of the grand jury

19

is to find the truth in all of this.

20

Yes.

21
22
23

We are here also to get to


know Mike.
A

We didn't know him.


I can guarantee you if he was here today

24

you would all love him.

25

person.

He was a fun,

He was never uptight,

outgoing

I'm the one usually

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 191

with the attitude.

He would have to tell me, he

used to have to tell me to calm down and stop being

so serious about things.


We didn't do nothing.

We did smoke

marijuana, but if we did, it was in an enclosed

place, it wasn't like we was out in the public with

it, we would just smoke and play video games and

just chill like we normally would do.

One thing I did want to

10

ask if I could,

11

or do you know any of the family history, was there

12

any history that Michael Brown may have any type of

13

like what they call ADD, Attention Deficit Disorder,

14

hyperactivity, or anything of that nature?

15
16

ADD is when you like can't stop moving and

got to move around all the time.

17
18

was there, to your knowledge,

Well, yeah, lose focus.


A

No, he was more of a home body.

I used to

19

have to like go get him and make him put on clothes

20

and walk to the store like.

21

his granny was overprotective of him.

22

And really and truly

At that time I was one of them like

23

why is she overprotective, now I know.

24

the fact,

25

of him.

Now after

I know why she was being so overprotective

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 192

MS. WHIRLEY:

Why was it?

Because of situations like this.

Because

if you notice, the people that don't deserve it, it

usually happens to them.

He didn't deserve it.


There's been testimony

that in speaking with Michael and he was giving a

response back to somebody, that Michael would have

the action of raising his head and fluttering his

eyes while giving a response and doing that

10

repetitively, you know, whenever he gave a response,

11

he would raise up his head and, you know, flutter

12

his eyes.

13

noticed of him?

14

Was that a common practice that you

I honestly,

I never really paid attention

15

to that type of thing.

I honestly didn't.

I can't

16

honestly say I have.

17

meant it and whenever he said something, it usually

18

was deep and had meaning behind.

But whatever he say he usually

19

All right.

Thank you,

20
21

MS. ALIZADEH:

I just want to ask you

22

something because we talked about, you know,

23

something about Michael Brown because, obviously,

24

none of us knew him and you knew him very well.

25

knowing

Yes.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed b

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 193

MS. ALIZADEH:

Have you seen or have you

heard that there was video that was aired that

showed Michael Brown stealing some Cigarillos.

Me, honestly,

I wasn't there.

I ain't

never see the tape so I can't honestly speak on

that,

I really can't.
MS. ALIZADEH:

8
9

12

Honestly,

I don't think that was the case.

MS. ALIZADEH:

No,

I can't really speak on it, I didn't

see the tape or anything.

14

speculation I heard.

15

17
18

MS. ALIZADEH:

21
22

25

Okay.

I'm saying if you

Me, personally, I couldn't see him doing

nothing like that, no.


MS. ALIZADEH:

So that would be something

you wouldn't expect Michael Brown to do?


A

No, huh-uh, that ain't the type of person

he was, at least around me.

23
24

It was just a lot of

assume that that was him in the video.

19
20

So you don't think that he

did that?

13

16

Would you think that

that was out of character for him?

10
11

Okay.

MS. ALIZADEH:

You've seen him high

before?
A

Yes.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 194

MS. ALIZADEH:

Did he do things out of

character when he would be under the influence of

drugs?

MS. ALIZADEH:

5
6

No, usually he would just fall asleep.

Okay.

He usually just fall asleep and I fall

asleep right along with him.

there waking us up and kick me out of the house like

she always do.

10
11
12
13

MS. ALIZADEH:

16

Did you ever know him to

have like a quick temper?


A

No,

I'm the one with the quick temper.

It

was usually always him telling me to calm down.

14
15

And she would come in

MS. ALIZADEH:

So like never heard about

him getting in any fights or anything like that?


A

17

No.
MS. ALIZADEH:

Okay.

All right.

18

So you

19

say you don't know why he couldn't live with his

20

family,

21

to disrespect your friend,

22

that is you say he's your best friend and he is

23

living with your sister who is pregnant and has two

24

small children in the home.

25

it was none of your business.

I don't mean

the problem I have with

Yes.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 195

And you never thought to

ask him why he couldn't live with his family member,

did you think it could be some type of volatile

situation your family could be put into?

No, cause I didn't think about it like

that.

We was together all day anyway, so my sister

was the one that told me it wasn't no problem with

him coming over.


Okay.

10
11

And you did say

that you did


A

As long as I've known him, he was never

12

living with his mother from the get-go.

13

always living with his grandmother, that's how we

14

met from his grandmother's house because we went to

15

school together.

16

He was

You don't know why his

17

grandmother was in the hospital, could it possibly

18

have been from their argument?

19

I don't know.

I don't know if it was

20

slowly just building up, building up, I don't know

21

if she was depressed, whatever sent her to the

22

hospital.

23

hospital for a few days.

24
25

At that point in time she was in the

This is his grandmother,


he told you he stormed out and left, he couldn't

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed b

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 196

live with her.

Yes, they was arguing.

Again, I don't mean to

talk bad about your friend, you feel like that is

okay behavior to do with his grandmother, find it

hard to believe he had similar behavior with a

stranger?

9
10

No, it is not like that cause I was going

through problems with my mother at the time also,


that's why I was living down at my sister's house.

11

I really don't know what their

12

problem was, but I know I was already going through

13

my own little situation to be in his life at that

14

time.

15

to look out for him.

16

would look out for me.

I just knew he was my friend and I was going

17
18

I guess just the way I know he

Regardless?
A

Yes.

19

I have on page 16 of your

20

recorded statement, you said with his hands on his

21

knees like this.

22

And then later you said he was on his

23

knee, he was on his knee, he was on his knees, and

24

then today you say he was on his knees with his

25

hands up.

Those are three very different.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 197

No,

I know what I said, and I said he was

on his knees with his hands up.

the window every single time that part has never

changed.

5
6

When I looked out

So you are saying that


what we heard is wrong, what we heard you say?

I said every time he had his hands up in

the air on his knees.

specifically what I said.

10

I can vouch for that,

Okay.

I know

And today you said

11

that you heard Michael tell Dorian Johnson to run

12

for his life and you saw Dorian Johnson leave.

13

today you are saying you didn't see Dorian until you

14

went downstairs.

15

run for your life?

16

Did you not actually hear him say

I didn't, that's what Dorian told me.

17

Okay.

18

19

Now

say,

He said that's the last thing he heard him

"Bro, run for your life."

20

Okay.

So, again today,

21

let me just check, because I don't remember you

22

telling us in today's statement that Michael was

23

pleading for his life.

24

statement you said you heard Michael pleading for

25

his life.

Because in your past

Please don't shoot, please don't shoot,

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 198

1
2

but you couldn't hear the police.


A

It is just like what I told her earlier,

she told me not stuff that I heard and I admitted

the first interview was most speculation and stuff

that I heard either from Dorian, neighbors, it was

just a whole lot of talk.

And that's why I'm asking

you because we don't know, there is three different

things that you said and I'm going to ask you this

10

as well, it is a hard question for me to ask, but

11

the first one you have admitted is not really what

12

happened.

13

Yes.

14

And the second one, which

15

is a little less intricate, yeah,

16

not so much.

17

even told somebody to look into your soul and to

18

look into your eyes, that you would never ever lie,

19

how do we know that today's statement is the truth?

20

How are we,

it happened, but

in the first statement you

It is not a lie if the person was actually

21

there, told me exactly what happened.

So I didn't

22

feel like it was a lie.

23

lie at all.

24

look he gave me in his eyes, he wouldn't lie to me

25

about something like that knowing that that was my

I didn't feel like it was a

And the way that Dorian came to me, the

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 199

best friend.

So you don't feel what

you said on the first interview was a lie because

somebody you trusted told you the truth?

I don't think it was a lie, no.

6
7

You don't believe you


lied?

No,

I don't.
Thank you.

9
10

MS. ALIZADEH:

Just to clarify then.

11

After that question, you didn't hear Michael

12

pleading for his life?

13

No, that's what I was told.

14

MS. ALIZADEH:

15

were you could hear the gunshots?

16

17
18

So from where you

Yes, that's the only thing I could hear.


MS. ALIZADEH:

You couldn't hear, you

didn't hear the officer say anything?

19

20
21

Okay.

No.
MS. ALIZADEH:

You didn't hear Michael say

anything?

22

23

No.
MS. ALIZADEH:

You didn't hear Dorian if

24

Dorian was out there, you didn't hear anything from

25

him?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 200

No, he told me what happened after the

fact of it all going down.


And this is

again.

I'm sorry,

only thing that's true about all of your statements

before this is that you saw that police officer

shoot him at point blank range?

, but are you telling us that the

Yes.

9
10
11

That's the only thing


that's true?
A

What I saw, yes.

12

What you saw, yes.

13

So you've

14

explained point blank shot that you saw took place

15

about 5 feet or so from the car, the police officer,

16

correct?

17

Yes.

18

And you also explained

19

that immediately after it happened you were down

20

there, were you able to see exactly where that

21

police car was located?

22

It was a few feet away from them, pointing

23

towards West Florissant.

24

Northwinds.

25

Like it was coming from

Could you show us with the

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 201

laser where you saw that car as soon as you walked

out?

Michael Brown was right here, the car had

to be where the C was at.

had to be in front of the C or where the C was at.

If he was right here, it

So if we had photograph

evidence and again, the FBI, if we have evidence

showing the car is not in that location, how would

you explain that?

10

Urn, really and truly, where the car was

11

located really doesn't have anything to do with what

12

honestly happened because he was unarmed, he didn't

13

put up a fight, and he was assassinated for what

14

reason.

15

with it?

So, honestly, what does the car have to do

16

The only reason

17

I ask that is if the car was not moved and it was in

18

that location that we've seen the photographs, then

19

you would have been able to see any altercation if

20

there was a fight by the car?

21

I wasn't really, let me ask you a

22

question.

23

murdered, you really would be thinking about where a

24

car was located?

25

If you just seen your best friend get

That's an honest question.


I understand you.

This

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 202

is

do, but I think what we're trying to determine is

what happened.

it was, where I believe you believe it was, and you

couldn't see the car and all you saw was a split

second of what happened, you don't know if there was

an altercation between Michael Brown and the police

before you looked out the window,

that there was or was not?

10

, I know I empathize with you, really I

So if the car wasn't where you think

I never said that at all.


That was my question to

11

12
13

you don't know

you, you don't know?


A

I never said that.

14

Okay.

15

MS. ALIZADEH:

Any other questions?

.)

(End of the testimony of

16
17
18

of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to

19

testify the truth, the whole truth, and

20

nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid,

21

deposes and says in reply to oral

22

interrogatories, propounded as follows,

23

EXAMINATION

24
25

to-wit:

MS. WHIRLEY:

It is April 16th, I'm Sheila

Whirley.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 203

MS. ALIZADEH:

MS. WHIRLEY:

April?
I'm sorry, October 16th,

2014.

Let's make sure we are in the right year.

I'm Sheila Whirley, Kathi Alizadeh is present, 12

grand jurors are present,

and we are here with

BY MS. WHIRLEY:

Can you spell your name for the court

reporter, do that for us, please?

10

Spelled,

11

All right,

You know why we're

12

here,

I just like to go right to it.

You know why

13

we're here,

14

Yes.

15

Because of the Michael Brown shooting that

right?

16

would have occurred August the 9th of 2014; is that

17

right?

18

Correct.

19

Where were you working August 9th?

20

At the Canfield Apartments.

21

In what capacity, what were you doing?

22

We were trenching downspouts.

23

Okay.

24

Piping out downspouts.

25

What company did you work for?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 204

What was your job, I mean, your title,

your job title?

I actually was in sales, so lawn

maintenance,

day.

I was helping out in the field that

Okay.

So more of an account manager than, you

9
10

know, a laborer, but I was helping out in the field


that day.

11

So you were acting as a laborer that day?

12

Correct.

13

Were you a supervisor?

14

Yes.

15

Who did you supervise?

16

The laborers.

17

Okay.

18

Were you working with an individual

or a group of people on Saturday?

19

On that day, one person.

20

What person was that?

21

22

23

supervisor?

24

25

You were actually his

In essence.

He had more experience, but I

was lead man on the job.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 205

I understand.

Yes,

Are you college educated?

I have a bachelor of arts, graduated

from Webster University, majored in marketing, minor

in advertisement.

sales is what I was there for.

And,

like I said, that's the

All right.

Happen to be working in the field that

How long had you been working for this

day.

10

particular company?

11

12

since November,

so nine months

roughly.

13
14

Urn,

Had you known

, right, had

you known him the whole time?

15

I knew him for two months at most.

16

At most.

17

Was this your first time working

with him in the field as a laborer?

18

I believe that was the first time we were

19

out in the field together.

I don't recall being, it

20

might have been the second time out there.

21

Okay.

22

We might have been out there through the

23

week.

24

him.

25

It was really the first time I worked with

Tell us how your day started that Saturday

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 206

morning, what time did you start at Canfield Green

working?

I'd say we got there about 8:00, 8:15.

In the morning, of course?

Right.

And we moved, we parked at the

office, top left up there.

Okay.

Before you move on, we're looking

at Grand Jury Exhibit Number 25, and it is a map of

the Canfield Green Apartment Complex; is that

10

correct?

11

Yes.

12

And you recognize it as that?

13

Yes.

14

Where is the laser, you know how to use

15

that laser pen, right?

16

Sure.

17

Okay.

18

saying, where were you working?

19
20
21
22

Now talk us through what you were

A
here.

We were working right on this Building


(indicating)

In the very beginning when you first got

there that morning?

23

No.

24

I want to start --

25

In the morning at 8:00 when we pulled in

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 207

and parked right about here, you know, we did some

work around this building here, up to about 10:00.

Moved around Building

were working on these downspouts in this area.

There was a big root where this tree was and about

11, 11-ish, that's when we first encounterer Mike.

(indicating)

9
10
11

Okay.

and Building

We kind of

Were you with

the

whole time while you were working, or were you


working
No, we were working together.

We had our

12

truck parked here initially, you know, about 10:00,

13

11:00.

14

building.

15
16

We were working on this corner of the

You said you were at that location, which

you identified on the map as Building

17

Right.

18

Near Building

19

Brown?

20

Yeah.

when you first saw Michael

It was, we had moved over to the

21

middle of the building, and when we first saw him,

22

he came down, and

23

roots, and that was the first time we saw him.

was actually cutting some

24

Where was he coming from?

25

He came down the stairwell.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed b

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 208

From that apartment building?

Correct.
MS. ALIZADEH:

I was looking down, what stairwell?

This one right here.


MS. ALIZADEH:

6
7

I'm sorry, can you show me?

(indicating)

Okay.

(By Ms. Whirley)

So he comes down the

stairwell, do you remember how he's dressed?


A

Yes, he was wearing a gray shirt,

jean

10

shorts, Cardinals cap, he had yellow socks with pot

11

leafs on them and sandals.

12

With pot leafs on them?

13

Yes.

14

You recall him wearing jeans?

15

Jean shorts.

16

Jean shorts, okay.

17

When he comes down,

is

he alone?

18

He was alone.

19

All right.

Uh, he mentioned something, said something

20

And what made you even notice

him?

21
22

about

cutting through a root and how he was a

23

little frustrated with having to cut through it.

24

You know, he said one of you two mad about

25

something?

I'm getting a bad vibe.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 209

He was talking to

Yeah.

But you were in earshot?

I was standing right behind him getting

ready to hand him whatever tool he needed to get the

job done.

again?

10

13

And when he said, he said what now

He said, one of you two mad about

something I'm getting a bad vibe.

11

12

I see.

And did

say anything back or did

you?
said something to him in the effect

14

of, it was what he told me and what he told him were

15

two different things.

16

effect that my boss shorted me 60 cents on my

17

paycheck, you know,

18

situation.

It was something to the

just making light of the

19

Did he say that in your presence to Mike

20

Brown?

21

22

that's what

23

hearsay,

24

it was something to diffuse the situation.

25

kind of a light comment.

Uh,

I didn't hear what


told me he said.

said, but
That's kind of

I don't know exactly what he said to him,


Just

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 210

2
3

Okay.

To diffuse the situation, was there

a situation?
A

He came up and said, one of the two of you

mad about something,

I'm getting a bad vibe.

Did you hear them discuss anything else?

At that point, no.

I know that they had a

long conversation in this area right here where the

truck was initially parked.

digging the trench.

10

I was working on

But at that point, they weren't talking,

11

they didn't have a long conversation really when he

12

first came down the stairs?

13

After

said something,

14

really catch what

15

you know,

16

whatever, something to that effect.

I didn't

said, but I heard Mike say,

if you turn to Jesus, he'll save you,

17

So Mike is talking about Jesus?

18

Right.

19

And did they continue to talk, or what

20
21

happened next?
A

Uh, yeah, the conversation kind of, you

22

know, started here and then

went back to the

23

truck for a tool or something, and Mike followed him

24

over there.

And they talk and I continued to work

25

on the hole,

I don't know what all they talked

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 211

about.

You couldn't hear them?

Not from the other side of the truck.

did go over after a few minutes and kind of go, hey,

we're trying to work here.

talking about pictures of Jesus on the wall and

different things.

Okay.

You know, they were

Did Mike, and we know who we are

talking about Mike Brown, the young man that was

10

killed.

11

mood or aggressive, or anything like that?

12

Did he appear to you to be in an agitated

He flinched his fist a couple times and

13

looked up at the sky when they were over here

14

talking,

15

flinched his fist a couple times and like looking

16

up.

I came around to see what's going on, he

I kind of found it odd.

17

You know, take a step back whenever

18

we were over here in this conversation, they were

19

talking about the socks, and Mike said, you know,

20

you've got to try everything in this life, you know,

21

everything to figure out where you want to go in

22

this world.

23

is probably high.

And that kind of led me to believe he

24

Okay.

25

And he kind of seemed that he came down

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 212

when he was talking to

down from the high.

4
5

over here, like he came

Describe what that looked like, him coming

down from a high?


A

It was them talking about pictures of

Jesus on the wall and

said something to the

effect of how you might have a picture of Jesus on

your wall, well, the devil has got a picture of me

on his wall.

Whenever I come down, he's going to be

10

the person in charge.

11

don't know if you guys have seen him.

12

he's a character.

At the end of the conversation when

13

it was all said and done, Mike said, you know, nice

14

talking to you, and he shook

15

kind of tell that he was grounded, you know.

16

Okay.

hand.

I could

Describe to me why you think he was

17

coming down from a high, what was he doing that made

18

you think that he was high?

19

I can't say for sure.

20

Because of the socks?

21

It is more of an assumption.

22

Let me ask a question or two.

23

Did you

smell marijuana?

24

No.

25

All right.

Did you see him smoking any

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 213

marijuana?

No.

Did you see him handling marijuana?

No.

Okay.

again.

The socks.

Oh, the socks, okay.

9
10

So tell me about your assumption

He said nothing was

wrong with smoking?


A

I was up there for four weeks and it was a

11

day-to-day thing I smelled marijuana a lot around

12

all of the apartment buildings.

13

you know,

14

guy with marijuana leafs on his socks is probably

15

smoking marijuana.

16

Don't get me wrong,

I don't want to stereotype anybody, but a

I was curious about whether you thought he

17

appeared high though that morning when you saw him,

18

and that's why I was asking a few detailed questions

19

about it.

20

high except for the socks?

21

There was nothing that made him appear

Right.

And the fact that he came down

22

asking if one of us were mad, you know,

23

paranoid, you know.

kind of

24

To you that seem kind of paranoid?

25

Right.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed b

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 214

All right.

he followed

You said, show us again where

So our truck was parked kind of

catty-corner to this building here, you know,

directly out.

here, they were over here talking.

digging this trench.

came up and heard the end of the conversation.

10

And they were on the driver door


I was over here

I walked around and kind of

What was that,

is that when they're

talking about Jesus on the wall you mean?

11

Right.

12

And then what happened?

13

He said he was, see, at this point he went

14

back up into the apartment.

15

Went back upstairs?

16

Yeah, he went back upstairs.

17

know, we went back to work after that.

18
19
20

And, you

Do you recall when you saw him the next

We were moving around this L shape here

time?

21

and moving up into this corner and into that.

22

he came walking from this direction.

23

saw him, he came walking from this direction with

24

that fellow with the dreadlocks.

25

And

Next time I

What's his name?

We know him as Dorian Johnson.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed b

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 215

2
3

Dorian, right.

They came up and

was

back over here talking to them.


And how long ago, tell me the timeframe

from when you, when he went back upstairs and then

you saw him later with Dorian?

7
8

I would say 10, 15 minutes, you know,

somewhere roughly in there.


Had he changed clothes, Michael Brown, or

was he in the same clothes?

10

Same.

11

Okay.

12
13

No, they had a conversation over here with

I was over in this area by then moving my

15

way around.

16

18

So he comes back with

Dorian, do they come and talk to you?

14

17

All right.

So you weren't within earshot to hear what

they were saying?


A

Correct.

And you know after a while I

19

came back over to the truck,

20

going on, hey,

21

dispersed.

kind of see what's

let's get back to work here and they

22

You say they dispersed, describe --

23

Well,

I walked over and, you know, hey,

24

let's get back to work.

was like, all right.

25

The two guys, Mike said that they were going to

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 216

continue the conversation when they got back.

that's when they went to the convenience store.

And

Which way did they travel?

Uh, they just went up the street here.

This would be West Florissant here?

(indicating)

Right.

Okay.

And then what was the next time you

saw them?

10

I never saw Darian?

11

Dorian?

12

Dorian,

13

Okay.

14

Brown?

15

16

I never saw him again.


When is the next time you saw Mike

He was in this vicinity right here.

(indicating)

17

And what was he doing?

18

He was moving down the street.

19

Okay.

20

Did you ever see him in a tussle

with a police car?

21

Never did.

22

Police officer?

23

No,

I think that happened back here.

24

like,

25

timeframe here.

And,

I said, at this point, so they went just to


So they went to do whatever, and I

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 217

had to go get the bobcat, which was parked up here

and in my process of going over here and coming back

and started digging some trenches with the bobcat, I

was in about this location here and heard a gunshot.

(indicating)

Okay.

I heard a loud bang.

I didn't know what

it was.

It sounded like a bunch of PVC pipe hitting

the ground, if you know what I'm talking about.

10

I stepped out in about this location.

11

We had our truck parked right about here.

12

point, like I said, we were moving around.

13

stepped out,

14

Brown come out behind the building, he was moving at

15

a pretty good clip.

I was about right here.

At this
I

I saw Mike

(indicating)

16

He was doing what?

17

He was moving at a pretty good, you know,

18

kind of getting away.

19

Like trotting or walking fast?

20

Right.

21

Okay.

22

I saw what appeared to be him getting shot

23

in the back.

24

25

And what else did you see?

Shot in the back.

Why do you say it

appeared that way?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 218

Well, he was running,

I heard a gunshot.

He was about here at this point.

and he kind of stumbled, and then he turned around.

I heard a gunshot

Can you do us a favor and stand up,

please?

Sure.

And show us, you know, what happened that

made you think he might have been shot from the back

or somewhere in the back, and then turn around for

10

us the way he did?

11

It was more of --

12

Why don't you face the door?

13

It was more of a, you know,

kind of like,

14

I don't know how fast he was moving exactly, he was

15

going like this.

16

you know, take a little step down and he caught

17

himself and turned around and had his hands up.

18

(indicating)

I saw him, you know,

kind of take,

19

He had his hands all the way up like that?

20

Right.

21

Sure of that?

22

Positive.

23

Did he say anything?

24

He yelled okay, okay, okay, multiple

25

times.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 219

2
3

And at that point, what is the

officer doing?
His gun's drawn,

at him.

Okay.

standing there pointing

I never heard him say anything.


But you were within earshot to hear

Michael Brown?

I heard him screaming.

And you never heard the officer say, did

it appear that the officer was saying anything,

10

just couldn't hear it, it didn't appear he was

11

saying anything?

12

Right.

13

And what was he doing,

you

I know you said he

14

had his gun drawn, did he just stand there with the

15

gun drawn?

16

Yes.

17

And never did anything else?

18

Well --

19

Why don't you tell us what happened?

20

So they were about right here at that

21

point kind of, you know, on the street, and Mike

22

Brown started walking back at him okay, okay, okay,

23

hands up and he just started shooting at him.

24
25

Okay.

If I'm the officer, how was Michael

Brown walking toward him with his hands up?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 220

Like this.

Okay, all right.

(indicating)
Was he saying, stop, get

down, nothing?

No.

Okay.

And any idea how many shots were

fired at Michael Brown as he was walking towards

him?

Six to seven, and I would say after the

third shot he kind of went like this and it was more

10

of a, he moved a little quicker, and then kind of,

11

saw him falling and disappeared behind a building.

12

I was right here behind the truck at that point, and

13

then the shots must have been, you know, right here

14

going towards this building, and I'm standing right

15

here.

16

And I'm seeing, I'm like, what the

17

heck,

18

they kind of come together there and he,

19

know what else to say.

I'm standing behind this truck and,

you know,
I don't

20

Okay.

21

He fell, he fell on his face behind that

22
23
24
25

building, but I didn't see.


Q

You saw him going down, you couldn't see

him hit the ground is what you mean?


A

(Nods head.)

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 221

Later at some point you came from behind

that building and could see him on the ground?

After it all happened, we walked up to

this knoll right about here and that's when they

were taping it off and everything.

6
7

ground, from your vantage point?

8
9

Could you see the officer when he hit the

Where this car is at,

about 10 feet apart.

I mean, they were

And the officer kind of backed

10

up.

He might have been standing right here at this

11

corner, the officer and I didn't see the final part

12

of that so.

13

Could you tell, and maybe you just told

14

us.

I'm going to ask to make sure, could you tell

15

how far apart Mike Brown and the officer was when

16

you saw him shoot him six or seven times?


A

19
20

out.
A

That's about it.

Q
A

Q
A

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 222

Yeah.

All right.

And the officer was backing up as he was

firing.

As he was firing.

Okay.

Now, you wrote a

written statement, you made a written statement; is

that right?

Yes.

And when did you write your statement?

10

Uh, approximately 2:00, August 9th.

11

That day.

12

So right after it happened you

wrote a statement?

13

Yes.

14

Why did you do that?

15

The guy I was working with, he was talking

16

to his old boss.

17

that down what happened, and then I probably should

18

too.

19
20
21

Well, you should probably write

Did you guys sit down and write your

statements together at the same time?


A

Uh, probably about as far apart as him and

22

I, but no words were spoken.

23

judgment or our own take on the matter.

24
25

It was our own

So you didn't like talk about, hey, what

are you going to write,

I'm going to write this,

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 223

what are you going to write, that kind of thing?

Right.

You each wrote independently of one

another?

Yes.

Did you look at his statement when you

finished writing?

I did read it.

Did he read yours?

10

I read it to him.

11

You read your statement to him and did

12

that make him change his statement?

13

No.

14

And you reading his statement, did you

15

change yours?

16

No.

17

Why don't you have a seat for us.

18

like you to read that statement.

19

right?

20

21
22
23

I'd

You have it,

Yes.
MS. WHIRLEY:

We have copies for you.

just want him to read it now.


A

On Saturday, August 9th, at approximately

24

12:15, I witnessed one white male police officer gun

25

down and kill one black male.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 224

Initially, I heard a single shot

fired and peered around the corner to see a black

male walking away, at which time I heard another

shot and saw the white cop behind the black man.

was about 50 to 60 yards away watching the black man

stumble away from the officer and turn with his

hands raised yelling, okay, okay.

8
9
10

Officer proceeded to unload his clip


into the black man, at least six to seven more
shots.

11

Thirty minutes before the incident,

12

fellow co-worker

13

man who spoke of Jesus and life and honest people.

14

Mike was his name.

15

cap, gray shirt, jean shorts, with yellow pot leaf

16

socks and sandals.

17

spoke with the black

He was wearing a Cardinals ball

At the time of the incident after

18

hearing the first and second shots, I stood there

19

like a deer in the headlights, stunned to see and

20

believe what was happening.

21

Mike said he was going to the

22

convenience store to get a few things and would be

23

right back.

24

engaged in conversation.

25

We were working on his building and


He seemed like a nice guy.

That is accurate as to how you remembered

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 225

it that day?

Yes.

Okay.

Now,

you didn't mention anything in

your written statement about him appearing high or

intoxicated or anything?

Right.

You didn't think about it then or what

made you think about it later?

Just the pot leafs on the socks.

10

Okay.

11

It was more,

you know,

I got to thinking

12

about it, you know, why was he questioning if we

13

were upset and why was he, not that I have a lot of

14

experience with it,

15

evidence for me.

16
17

I've seen it.

That was the

He didn't try to sell you any pot or have

a smoke with you or Steve or anything?

18

No.

19

Okay.

Did he appear at the time that you

20

saw him to be a threat to the officer when he was

21

being shot, when he was coming toward the officer?

22

No.

23

Okay.

24
25

Did he appear to be coming toward

the officer in an aggressive way?


A

I mean, that's subjective.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 226

I'm talking your opinion?

See,

Okay.

I take the hands going down and kind of

I kind of have a mixed opinion on it.

moving quicker towards the cop as either I'm falling

to my death or okay, you've already shot me a couple

times,

9
10
11

12
13
14

I'm coming at you.

So it could be either of those.

So when

he had his hands up, what was your impression then


when he was saying okay, okay, okay?
A

Initially I was like okay, he's giving up,

you know, that was my impression.


Q

Okay.

And did you ever see a weapon in

his hand?

15

No.

16

Were you close enough to see if he had a

17

weapon?

18

Yes.

19

How is your eyesight?

20

I wear contacts, so it is 20/20.

21

You had them on that day?

22

Yes.

23

And your hearing is good?

24

As far as I know.

25

You hear me pretty well, right?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 227

Yes.

The other person, and his name is Dorian

that we talked about, did you see him at any point

when the shooting was going on?

No, like I said earlier, I never saw him

after he was, they were going to the convenience

store.

Okay.

You never,

I think you already

answered this too, so bear with me.

You never, once

10

you came back after the shooting was over and you

11

came out, what did you see as far as the scene was

12

concerned, describe that for us after the shooting

13

was over.

14

All I saw was there was, at this point,

15

there was three cops.

16

it must have been as it was happening or right

17

after.

18

looking at the ground.

19

right here, and one of the cops grabs a roll of tape

20

and starts taping it off.

21
22
23
24
25

The other two cops showed up,

They came up and they are all staring,


Mike Brown's laying about

Did you notice a police car or just a lot

of police cars around at that point?


A

There was an SUV, I believe, right about

in this vicinity and that was


Q

Near the body?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 228

Yeah, a little past it.

the street.

He bled out on

Were you there much longer after this

shooting occurred or did you get out of there soon

after?

We got out pretty quick.

and I, you

know, he said we probably should go, you know, being

two white guys, that's just my feeling.

should probably get out of here.

10

He said we

I think things

about to go -- sorry.

11

I'm sorry.

12

Things are about to escalate, all kind of

13

people out here.

14

Was it escalating?

15

Yeah, people coming out of the freaking

16

apartments like nobody's business.

17

Were they saying anything?

18

Urn, there was a fellow that came up here

19

in a red car, he pulled up about right here, he

20

jumps out and he yells, he was no fucking threat.

21

If you saw the video,

22

hands up.

23

whatever he said.

24

25

video?

goes,

yeah, he had his

He had his fucking hands in the air, or

Right.

And that was you and

in that

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 229

Yes.

Yeah.

Okay.

was wearing the pink shirt?

You're not still working for that

same place; is that correct?

Correct.

And does it have something to do with the

shooting?

Yes.

10

Tell us a little bit about that.

11

Uh, essentially my anxiety was so high I

12

couldn't return to work, took off that Monday, the

13

11th, filed

14

miss pay for that day and my boss let me go.

15
16

I didn't want to

Did he tell you why he let you go, did he

actually tell you he let you go because you filed

17

18

It was, he said it was my performance.

19

Okay.

20

And you had worked for him for nine

months?

21

Right.

22

Had he ever complained about your

23
24
25

performance before this day?


A

No, and I wasn't a laborer,

I was out

there making sure the job got done.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 230

MS. ALIZADEH:

I couldn't hear what you

said, that last part.

I said that I wasn't a laborer, my job

wasn't to labor, I was out there just to make sure

that the job got done.

(By Ms. Whirley) Now, how did you come to,

since you left that, you did write a statement that

same day, but you left.

the police or the FBI about what you saw, how did

10

How did you get to talk to

that happen?

11

Uh, they showed up at my house.

I had a

12

St. Louis County detective show up,

13

another St. Louis County detective, along with an

14

FBI agent.

15

took me down to Clayton down here and put me in an

16

interrogation room and asked me a bunch of questions

17

that I answered the best I could.

18

19

and after that

And then a third time they picked me up,

Do you know how they found out about you?

How they knew to come to your house?

20

I don't know for sure, but if I had to

21

guess, I'm thinking they probably got the name of

22

the company I work for from the apartment complex

23

and so on and so forth.

24
25

sure.

They are the police, they can find out,


When you say the first shot is what drew your

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 231

attention that something was going on and then I

believe you said you heard a second shot; is that

right?

Yes.

And where were you when you heard the

second shot?

At that point I was behind the truck which

is parked about where that white car is.

standing about where the driver door is in that

10

white car.

11
12

I'm

And as you're hearing,

I'm sure the first

shot got your attention as you just said?

13

Right.

14

When you hear the second shot, are you

15

looking in any particular direction to try to figure

16

out what is going on?

17

I was back here,

I kind of came out here

18

and

19

urn, you know,

20

thinking is that a bunch of pipes going on the

21

ground, which didn't make sense to me we had a lot

22

of pipe on the ground.

23

was.

24
25

was over here working on something.

I'm looking over at

All right.

And,

, you know,

So I didn't know what it

Could you see anything

happening when you heard the second shot?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 232

Yes.

Tell us what you saw.

I saw Michael Brown,

just Michael Brown

walking to the right as we are looking.

walking down the street here.

He was

Like going east?

Right.

Away from the officer?

I couldn't see the officer, but yes,

10

it

was away from the officer.

11

Was he walking or running?

12

It was a fast pace.

13

Fast pace?

14

Like we talked about earlier.

15

You heard a shot as he is moving away from

16

the officer and that's why you thought he was shot

17

in the back?

18

And that's when he stumbled.

19

Okay.

20
21

MS. WHIRLEY:
Q

Kathi, do you have anything?

(By Ms. Alizadeh)

I stepped out and I

22

missed part of this so I don't want to get too

23

repetitious, but did you hear when Michael Brown, at

24

any time Michael Brown was talking to

25

did you hear them talking about marijuana or weed?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 233

Just the comment of the socks.

Okay.

3
4

No.
MS. ALIZADEH:

MS. WHIRLEY:

MS. ALIZADEH:

10

Did you already ask about

that, Sheila?

say

anything about wax?

5
6

Did you hear

Not about wax.


I didn't want to repeat

things if that was already covered.


A

I was asked that by the detectives when

11

they brought me up here, but I never heard anything

12

like that that day.

13

(By Ms. Alizadeh)

So just so I can be

14

clear, you first saw Mike earlier in the morning and

15

he was by himself and he spoke to

16

and you were kind of not involved in the

17

conversation?

18

Right.

19

All right.

a little bit

And what you heard of that

20

conversation was basically him talking about what,

21

Jesus and being angry or something, you're shaking

22

your head, but that doesn't, nobody

23

Oh, yeah, that is correct.

24

You have to say out loud.

25

Yes, that's what I got from it.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 234

All right.

At that point did you see them

touch each other,

paper with anything, did you see them in any contact

with each other?

No,

Mike shook

continue this.

8
9

shake hands, exchange pieces of

just the end of the conversation when


hand and said, you know, we'll

So I'm trying to get at, there is this

first encounter where he's talking to

and then

10

he goes, he leaves and then there is a second

11

encounter where he and Dorian are talking to

12

okay,

right?

13

Right.

14

So did Dorian shake

15

hand after the

first encounter or after the second encounter?

16

Dorian never shook his hand.

17

I'm sorry, Michael Brown?

18

That was the first encounter, Mike shook

19
20

his hand.
Q

Okay.

And then you also talked about that

21

at some point Mike and

22

on the side of Steve's truck?

went over by his truck,

23

The initial conversation.

24

That was the initial conversation?

25

Yes.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 235

1
2

Okay.

Could you see what was happening

when they were by

truck?

I saw them talking.

Okay.

I mean, until I went over there and heard

them talking about pictures of Jesus,

didn't, you know,

talking.

10

Okay.

I really

I just kind of saw them over there

So you really weren't paying that

much attention at that point?

11

Right.

12

So when I said though, when I said could

13

you see them, what I'm trying to get at is, were

14

they at a place where your view of them was

15

obstructed by anything?

16

17

truck.

18

Yeah, they were on the other side of the

Okay.

So there is a time when the two of

19

them walked to the other side of the truck and you

20

can't see what's going on?

21

Yeah, the whole initial, the first

22

conversation, they were on the other side of the

23

truck.

24

I really couldn't see them except their heads

25

through the windows.

I mean,

I came in on the last bit of it, but

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 236

Okay.

So, and then Mike Brown leaves, you

said when he initially came out, did you say he came

out of this building, Number

Yes.

And then when he left, did he go back in

that building or leave?

Yes, yeah, yeah.

Yes?

9
10

And then you said then the next time

you saw him he was somewhere around here?


(indicating)

11

Right.

12

You didn't see how he came out of that

13

building

14

15

16

Correct.
at some point?

see him he's around here?

So the next time you


(indicating)

17

Right.

18

Is that when he's with Dorian?

19

Yes.

20

Do they walk back to your direction?

21

Yeah, they walk to about right here where

22

the truck was parked.

(indicating)

23

And they start talking to

again?

24

Yeah.

25

Do you see either of them go back into

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 237

this building?

No.

So my question is, they could have, but

you didn't see it or they did not go back into the

building?

I can't say,

I mean,

I don't know.

I was over here doing

some work,

they went back up here and they came back down here.

I saw them.

10

Okay.

11

I just saw them.

12
13

I mean,

I don't know if

I don't know how they

got there.
Q

Okay.

And so at that point then, after

14

they left and they said they would be back, was it

15

Mike that said that or was it the other man, Dorian?

16

It was Mike.

17

And then the next thing you notice, you

18

hear a gunshot, correct?

19

20

And that's several minutes later,

21

Yeah,

22
23

(Nods head.)

I'd say 10, 15 minutes,

I guess?

somewhere

around there.
Q

All right.

And when your attention is

24

directed in that location or in that area, do you

25

see Mike Brown before you hear the second gunshot,

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 238

or do you hear the second gunshot and then see Mike

Brown?

No, the first.

So you turn and you see Mike Brown and

he's,

at one point you said a good clip, and then you said

walking and then you said walking fast?

I want to be clear on how he's moving because

He was running from the cop.

I mean,

it

wasn't a run, but it wasn't a walk.

10

Okay.

11

He was moving away going down the street.

12

Okay.

13

He's a big guy,

14
15
16

All right.

And then
I mean,

you know a run for

him might be a jog to me.


Q

I'm not trying to be argumentative,

I'm

just trying --

17

No,

18

So then you hear the second gunshot?

19

Yes.

20

And you said at that point you think that

21

I just want to explain the difference.

that second gunshot hit him?

22

Yes.

23

And that was because of what?

24

Why I think that?

25

Yeah.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 239

Because he stumbled.

And then he turns around,

3
4

5
6

7
8

9
10

okay.

Now at

this point, have you seen the officer at all?


A

Not yet.

I mean,

it was shortly after he

turned around that I saw the cop.


Q

Okay.

So when he turned around,

is Mike

Brown's back to you?


A

Uh, they're kind of maybe at a 45 degree

angle from me.


Q

Okay.

When he was coming in your

11

direction, whatever pace that is,

12

say running,

13

could you see his face?

okay,

I didn't want to

coming toward your direction,

14

No.

15

Is that because of your position?

16

Well,

I mean,

I saw the side of his head.

17

I'm standing right here where that white car is and

18

he's right here and that's a pretty good distance.

19

Okay.

20

I mean,

21
22
23

I couldn't see his facial

expressions or whatever.
Q

All right.

And you said you heard Michael

Brown screaming?

24

Yes.

25

Was that before he turned around or after

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 240

he turned around?

Before I turned around.

No, Michael Brown.

Oh, that was after he turned around.

Okay.

screaming?

Could you make out what he was

He was yelling, okay, he said it about

six, seven times.

All right.

10

I wrote it down.

11

Okay.

12

MS. WHIRLEY:

If I can just ask something

13

while you are looking, Kathi.

14

he's saying, okay, okay, okay, before he was shot

15

again?

16

17
18
19

Was his hands up and

Yes.
MS. WHIRLEY:

So when he was being shot,

his hands were up?


A

20

Yes.
MS. ALIZADEH:

And so when he turned

21

around, he moved in toward where the officer comes

22

from in that direction, right?

23
24
25

Yes.
MS. ALIZADEH:

About how many steps or

feet did he move?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 241

2
3

In total?

I would say about 20.

MS. ALIZADEH:
A

20 feet.
MS. ALIZADEH:

20 feet or 20 steps?

Okay.

And so at some point

you see the officer appear beyond the building,

correct?

MS. ALIZADEH:

Yes.

turns and moves towards the officer.

10

officer move then?

11

Michael Brown?

12

And then Michael Brown

Does the

Is he still coming toward

I mean, after he turned around and had his

13

hands up, he kind of just stopped and stood there.

14

And then that's when the shooting occurred.

15

he was going, turned around and then started

16

shooting, and then Michael Brown, Michael Brown was

17

kind of moving at him like I'm giving up, hands up.


MS. ALIZADEH:

18

19
20
21

giving up, hands up.


A

So, now, you said I'm

You didn't hear him say that?

He said, okay, okay, okay, that to me

means--

22

MS. ALIZADEH:

I just want to be clear.

23

When you said that, that was what you are

24

interpreting, right?

25

I mean,

Yes.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 242

MS. ALIZADEH:

So what I'm trying to

figure out is you didn't see Michael Brown fall,

correct?

building.
MS. ALIZADEH:

MS. ALIZADEH:

11

I saw him to about where that white car is

MS. ALIZADEH:

So where is the officer

when that happens?

15
16

Right.

and then he was going down.

13
14

Yeah, about this area right here.

(indicating)

10

12

So the building blocked, he

goes beyond the building from your vantage point?

He was falling and then he went behind the

He was about, right about this

intersection right here.

17

MS. ALIZADEH:

(indicating)
So you can still see the

18

officer when Michael Brown disappeared from your

19

view?

20

That is correct.

He was kind of going

21

straight when the officer was kind of moving back

22

and sideways, and he kind of moved at an angle.

23

one point, the shots were this way and more went

24

almost at me.

25

MS. ALIZADEH:

Okay.

At

And once Michael

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 243

Brown disappeared from your view, did you ever hear

any more gunshots?

No.

MS. ALIZADEH:

MS. WHIRLEY:

I don't have anything else.


When you mention anger, or

Kathi said something about angry,

I'm clear, it was

some work he was doing and Mike Brown said he could

feel anger, is that what you told us?

10

MS. WHIRLEY:

12

MS. ALIZADEH:

MS. WHIRLEY:

15

were my words,

16

meant the same thing.

18

21
22

I thought you said he's

That's the words.

Those

I said angry, but you said vibe.

Those are not your words?

I'm getting a bad vibe, were you two angry

about something, that's what he said.

19
20

Questions?

getting a bad vibe?

14

17

that was angry about

Yes.

11

13

just to make sure

MS. ALIZADEH:

I'm sorry,

I just want to

say, this is very important.


A

I hear you.
MS. ALIZADEH:

All we're trying to do is

23

best figure out what happened, okay.

I know it

24

feels like we are picking at you and we're not.

25

Some of this stuff is very important and if you

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 244

don't remember exactly, it is best to say I'm not

sure,

ask you exact specific things, okay.

I don't remember exactly.

I'm just trying to be honest.


MS. ALIZADEH:

That's why when we

Okay.

At the

point when Michael Brown turns around with his hands

up and the police officer,

at him, did you ever see him or appear that he was

I guess, starts shooting

10

reaching in his shirt or reaching in his pants like

11

he had a weapon?

12

No.

13

Thank you.

14

MS. ALIZADEH:

Did you ever see Michael

15

Brown clutching his torso or with his hand where he

16

might have been touching his torso?

17

After about the third shot, he did have

18

his hands kind of over his belly, you know,

19

oh,

like,

I've got shot in the belly.

20

MS. ALIZADEH:

Okay.

So after the third

21

shot, the total third shot, or after the third shot

22

when you saw him?

23
24
25

Yeah, it would have been like the fifth

shot then.
MS. ALIZADEH:

Okay.

So from this

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 245

position his hands came down to clutch his torso at

some point?

MS. ALIZADEH:

5
6

That was about the fifth

shot?
A

Yes.
MS. ALIZADEH:

(Nods head.)

Did you,

could you see any

blood or anything on him?


A

Uh, no,

I didn't see any blood.

I did see

10

the back of his shirt, you know,

11

pinched your shirt or whatever, looked like a bullet

12

went through him.


MS. ALIZADEH:

13

Okay.

like somebody

And when you said,

14

you said, uh,

15

now, was that you interpreting his actions or did

16

you hear him say that?

17

20

No, that's my interpreting.


MS. ALIZADEH:

18

19

I'm shot, something like that just

I just want to make sure.

That's the gray area.

I don't know, it

all happened so fast.

21

MS. ALIZADEH:

I understand.

That's why

22

I'm asking is this something you heard or was that

23

just something that was just your impression?

24
25

That was my impression.


MS. WHIRLEY:

Questions, anyone?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 246

After

Michael turned around and he's advancing towards the

officer and you hear the shots, was it a continuous

burst of shots, was there a shot and a pause and

more shots?

It was continuous.

7
8
9

You think it was three or


four,

or how many?
A

It was at least six, maybe seven, like I

10

said, he unloaded his clip it seemed like.

11

barrage.

It was a

It seemed unnecessary.

12

Again,

13

after Michael Brown turned around, his hands are up,

14

either he started walking first or the gunshots

15

started first,

16

17
18
19

that series of shots?

He was advancing prior to the shots.


MS. WHIRLEY:

And just to be clear, how

long had you worked in that Canfield area?


A

20

Four weeks.
MS. WHIRLEY:

Four weeks.

21

Mike Brown before that day?

22

already.

23

24
25

You may have told us

No.
MS. WHIRLEY:

Had you met

Had you met Dorian?

No.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 247

MS. WHIRLEY:

2
3

Ferguson police officers?


A

And the officer that did the

shooting then, you wouldn't have known him?


A

Correct.
MS. WHIRLEY:

No.
MS. WHIRLEY:

Did you know any of the

You don't know any of these

people involved?
A

10

I have no connection to anybody up there.


MS. WHIRLEY:

11

All right.
Having

12

worked there for four weeks, like you said, and it

13

sounded a bit like PVC hitting the ground or

14

something like that.

15

hear another sound essentially echo off any of those

16

buildings, any loud sound or anything like that, you

17

know, when you're working you drop a tool or

18

something like that?

19

Uh, no.

20
21
22

Have you ever had occasion to

Nothing remarkable in that


respect?
A

I mean, it was right after the 4th of

23

July, heard some fireworks, but they didn't bounce

24

off the building.

25

anything.

I didn't hear it echoing or

I don't quite understand what you're

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 248

asking.

I'm trying to get a sense

the way that's it laid out, it is tough for us to

kind of visualize how it is laid out.

echos or travels through there very easily or it is

absorbed by the buildings?

If sound

Well, it wasn't like a normal gunshot.

It

sounded different and, you know, that's kind of why

I thought PVC to begin with, but that wasn't the

10

case.

11

MS. WHIRLEY:

Anybody else?

12

You

13

said sound different.

14

experience in all of those kind of things that you

15

say this is something different to you.

16

You were there, you have

I never said I was in the Army.

17

That is not what I asked.

18

You answered with him that the sound of it was

19

different to you?

20

Right.

21
22
23

Different with compared


to what?
A

It sounded far away.

24
25

It sounded far away.

You don't have experience


in those kind of arms?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed b

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 249

I'm a hunter.
What is different?

3
4

I've shot guns before,

to them.

5
6

I'm not a stranger

That's what I want to


know.

I know what a gunshot sounds like.


All right,

thank you.

One more

10

question.

11

were you operating a bobcat, making loud noise where

12

you may not have heard if there were shots before

13

that?

14
15

Just before you heard the first shot,

That's a good point.

out of the bobcat and --

16

Turned it off.

17

18

heard that.

19

know.

20
21
22
23
24
25

I had just gotten

Turned it off and jumped out,

and then I

It could have been more before,

MS. ALIZADEH:

I don't

Do you wear ear plugs when

you are working around that?


A

No.
(Deposition Exhibit Number 45
marked for identification.)
MS. ALIZADEH:

I just want to tie this in.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 250

Since you read from your statement, I'm going to

show you Grand Jury Exhibit Number 45.

copy of it?

Yes.
MS. WHIRLEY:

trouble with the law before yourself?


No.

MS. WHIRLEY:

10

We will pass that out.


Have you really been in

Is that a

Nothing else.

Thank you

very much.

11

(End of the testimony of

12

MS. ALIZADEH:

This is Kathi Alizadeh on

13

October 16th, it is 3:44 p.m. and Sheila Whirley is

14

here as well.

All 12 grand jurors and the court

15

reporter,

, and we're going to play now a

16

videotaped statement of

17

that you heard previously testify.

18

recorded on a disc that is marked Grand Jury Exhibit

19

Number 40.

20

, a witness
His statement is

And, urn, before we start recording, I was

21

explaining to the grand jurors that there is about

22

an hour and ten minutes of actual time where

23

is being interviewed by the police.

24

there is quite a bit of time where nothing is

25

happening.

And so

He will be sitting in a room by himself.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed b

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 251

We are going to fast forward, as it were, on the

counter it will be 16 hours 17 minutes and 45

seconds, or whereabouts, as close as Sheila can get.


That will be about where the interview

begins, and then the interview, there's a break in

the interview at 1726, 17 hours, 26 minutes and 38

seconds.

the interview, there is a break in the interview but

the interview never resumes after that.

10

Where

asked for some water and

So we're going to stop it at the point

11

where he asked for water and the detectives leave

12

the room to get water, all right?

13

So, at this time, also just for the sake

14

of the recording, one of the grand jurors has

15

indicated he is expecting a phone call that he has

16

to take.

17

recording that he's getting a call, we will go ahead

18

and pause the video so that he can quickly take that

19

call because we have to make sure you all are

20

hearing the same thing, okay.

21
22

So if I get the high sign during the

So at this time,

you can -MS. WHIRLEY:

One last thing I wanted to

23

say, even though we're going to focus on the time

24

when the interview is being conducted, you guys will

25

have access to the whole video.

So if you want to

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 252

watch him just sitting there doing nothing, you can

certainly do that at a later time.


MS. ALIZADEH:

So at this time,

, if

you will pause the audio while we play the statement

on Grand Jury Exhibit 40.

(Playing audio recording of

MS. ALIZADEH:

It is October 16th it is

about a quarter after 5:00.

Kathi Alizadeh, Sheila

10

Whirley had to leave.

11

day.

12

we finished, or we watched a videotape interview and

13

after a few technical glitches, we had started the

14

interview, watched a few minutes of it in the

15

beginning when

16

interview room, and there was conversation between

17

him and a detective that come in.

18

And we are finished for the

I just wanted to make a point in stating that

was put in the

And then we fast forward to approximately

19

16 hours 17 minutes and 45 seconds when the

20

interview began.

21

17 hours 26 minutes and 38 seconds when

22
23
24
25

We listened to it until just about

asked for a drink of water, and then that's


pretty much the conclusion of it.
There was about five or six statements
after that when they brought him some water.

You

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 253

all agreed you didn't need to fast forward to watch

that part.

Does anybody have any questions or issues

about this?

available for you if you wanted to go through it

again or watch the whole thing in its entirety, but

if that's fine for today, we'll conclude now and see

you next time.

And as always, this tape will be made

(End of Grand Jury Hearing Volume XIII.)

10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 254

1
2

State of Missouri

4
5

SS.

County of St. Louis


I,

, a Licensed Certified Court

Reporter by the Supreme Court in and for the State

of Missouri, duly commissioned, qualified and

authorized to administer oaths and to certify to

depositions, do hereby certify that pursuant to

10

Notice in the civil cause now pending and

11

undetermined in the County of St. Louis, State of

12

Missouri.

13

The said witness, being of sound mind and being

14

by the grand jury first carefully examined and duly

15

cautioned and sworn to testify to the truth, the

16

whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the case

17

aforesaid, thereupon testified as is shown in the

18

foregoing transcript, said testimony being by me

19

reported in shorthand and caused to be transcribed

20

into typewriting, and that the foregoing page

21

correctly sets forth the testimony of the

22

aforementioned witness, together with the questions

23

propounded by counsel and grand jurors thereto, and

24

is in all respects a full,

25

complete transcript of the questions propounded to

true,

correct and

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 255

1
2

and the answers given by said witness.


I further certify that the foregoing pages

contain a true and accurate reproduction of the

proceedings.

I further certify that I am not of counselor

attorney for either of the parties to said suit, not

related to nor interested in any of the parties or

their attorneys.

10
11
12
13
14
15

16
17
18
19

20
21
22
23
24

25

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 256

COURT MEMO

2
3
4

State of Missouri vs. Darren Wilson

6
7

CERTIFICATE OF OFFICER AND

STATEMENT OF DEPOSITION CHARGES

10
11

DEPOSITION OF Grand Jury, Volume XIII

12
13

10/16/2014

14

Name and address of person or firm having custody of

15

the original transcript:

16
17

St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney's Office

18

100 S. Central Ave.

19

Clayton, MO 63105

20
21
22
23
24
25

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 257

ORIGINAL TRANSCRIPT TAXED IN FAVOR OF:

2
3

St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney's Office

100 S. Central Ave., 2nd Floor

Clayton, MO 63105

Total:

8
9

10
11
12
13
14

15
16
17
18
19

20
21
22
23
24
25

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XIII


October 16, 2014
Page 258

Upon delivery of transcripts, the above

charges had not been paid.

that all charges will be paid in the normal course

of business.

GORE PERRY GATEWAY & LIPA REPORTING COMPANY

515 Olive street, Suite 700

st. Louis, Missouri 63101

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set

STATEMENT OF DEPOSITION CHARGES

10

my hand and seal on this

11

Commission expires

It is anticipated

day of

12

13

Notary Public

14

15
16
17
18
19
20
21

22
23
24

25

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

Case: State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Transcript of: Grand Jury, Volume XIV


Date: October 20, 2014

This transcript is printed on 100% recycled paper

515 Olive Street, Suite 300


St. Louis, MO 63101
(314) 241-6750
1-800-878-6750
Fax: (314) 241-5070
Email: schedule@goreperry.com
Internet: < <www.goreperry.com >>

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 1

STATE OF MISSOURI

VS.

DARREN WILSON

GRAND JURY

October 20, 2014

VOLUME XIV

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 2

IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF ST. LOUIS COUNTY

STATE OF MISSOURI

STATE OF MISSOURI

5
6

vs.

DARREN WILSON

10
11

12

The following is a hearing before the Grand

13

Jury of St. Louis County, at the offices of St.

14

Louis County Prosecuting Attorney's Office, 100

15

South Central Avenue, in the City of Clayton, State

16

of Missouri, on the 20th day of October, 2014,

17

before

18
19

20
21
22
23
24
25

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 3

APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:

2
3

FOR THE STATE:

Ms. Kathi Alizadeh & Ms. Sheila Whirley

Assistant Prosecuting Attorneys for St. Louis

County

100 South Central Avenue, 2nd Floor

Clayton, MO 63105

(314)

615-2600

10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 5

GRAND JURY HEARING VOLUME 14

MS. WHIRLEY:

Today is October the 20th, 2014.

approximately 8:41 a.m.

I'm here present with all

12 grand jurors and

, the court reporter.

Kathi Alizadeh is out of the room right now, but

will be joining us a little later in the morning.

8
9

This is Sheila Whirley.


It is

We're going to start off this morning


playing recorded statements.

So I have three

10

recorded statements of

11

the contractors that was at the apartment complex

12

that morning and he's already testified, but we

13

didn't get a chance to hear his statements because

14

he was present and we wanted to get the live

15

testimony going.

16

ahead and do his statements.

17

He was one of

This morning we are going to go

After that I anticipate we'll listen,

18

we'll have a live person that will testify and that

19

is

20

the cars driving in when all of this took place.

21
22

, who says that he was in one of

There is also one other witness,


that is scheduled to testify hopefully this

23

morning, and then we will probably have recorded

24

statements toward the conclusion of the day.

25

So with that bit of an introduction, I'm

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 6

going to pass out the first transcript of

I don't recall exactly how long this one

is, but I don't believe it is very long.

find any notes,

if you see one with notes on it.

6
7

If you

I guess those are probably Kathi's

There is two short interviews of


and then there is a longer interview with

the police officer.

will play.

10

So those are the three that we

Probably an hour and a half total maybe.

11

So with that bit of an introduction,

12

pause the recording and go ahead and listen to the

13

statements.

14
15

I guess we'll

(Playing of three interviews of


.)

16

MS. WHIRLEY:

This is Sheila Whirley

17

again, still October 20th, 2014.

18

statements that we just listened to were from Grand

19

Jury Exhibit Number 24.

The two recorded

20

I'm going to now play the interview with

21

that was conducted by two police

22

officers from St. Louis County.

23

approximately, well, it is less than an hour long.

24
25

That interview is

There's plenty of down time in this


interview where he's just sitting in a room.

I'm

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 7

going to skip through that.

that before, however, the CD or DVD will be

available for your viewing later if you want to see

the whole thing,

You have seen us do

including him just sitting there.

This one is not marked,

and Kathi has a

scheme of numbers.

number, we will get it marked once I find out where

it falls with the scheme of those things.

9
10

I'm not going to give you a

With that bit of introduction, we'll get


started so stop the recording.

11

(Playing of interview Number 3 of

12

.)

13

MS. WHIRLEY:

That concludes the interview

14

of

They call it DCI.

15

detectives and that's Detective

16

As I mentioned,

That's the
and Detective

I kind of skipped through

17

just to the part where there was an actual

18

interview.

19

interview began at 15:27 and then it pretty much

20

ended at 18:08:58.

21

interview is Grand Jury Exhibit Number 47.

22
23
24
25

There was a lot of down time and the

And the exhibit number for this

(Grand Jury Exhibit Number 47


marked for identification.)
MS. WHIRLEY:

While we're on the record,

did you want to say anything at this moment?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 8

MS. ALIZADEH:

Good morning.

over in court doing other cases.

MS. WHIRLEY:

No,

I've been
I don't.

At this time we'll take a

break, thank you.

(Recess)
MS. WHIRLEY:

October 20th, 2014.

Present

is Sheila Whirley, Kathi Alizadeh, all 12 grand

jurors,

, the court reporter, and a witness


I'm not sure exactly what time it

10

is, but we'll let

go on the record with his

11

statement and then swear in the witness.

12
13
14
15
16
17
18

19
20
21

of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to

22

testify the truth, the whole truth, and

23

nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid,

24

deposes and says in reply to oral

25

interrogatories, propounded as follows,

to-wit:

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 9

1
2

EXAMINATION
BY MS. WHIRLEY:

All right.

I've stated your name, but

introduce yourself and spell your name for us,

please?

My name is

I'm going to stand close to the back of

the room so that you can speak loud enough for us to

10

have a conversation and all the grand jurors to hear

11

you.

12

up there next to you does not help your voice get

13

any louder, okay?

That microphone that is by you that's sitting

14

Yes, ma'am.

15

All right.

16

I'm

17

18

So how old are you,

And where do you live currently, do

you live in Canfield Green

19

Yes, ma'am.

20

-- Apartments, okay.

Now, you see up

21

there, there's a laser light,

I believe, looks like

22

a pen.

23

button right there, why don't you shine it and see

24

if you can get a light to come on.

25

light?

Why don't you pick that up and there's a

You see the

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 10

Yes.

Okay.

Should I stand.

Yeah, feel free to walk around, stand,

Show us where you live?

before I ask you questions, let me make sure that

this map is something that you recognize as the

Canfield Green Apartments.

Exhibit Number 25.

Yes, ma'am.

10

Okay.

11

12

Okay,

13

And this is Grand Jury

Show us where you live?

stay here in
Now, you know why we're here

today, correct?

14

Yes, ma'am.

15

We're here about the Michael Brown

16

shooting.

17

that morning, tell us about your morning, how the

18

day went?

19
20

Where were you on August 9th, let's start

had left out around 8:00, 9:00 it was

early in the morning.

21

Was it Saturday as you recall?

22

Yes, ma'am.

23

Okay.

24

25

had got a call from my girlfriend to go

home and pick up some bills so I can pay them for

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 11

1
2
3

her while she was at work.


Q

Did you live with your girlfriend or who

did you live with?

Yes, rna' am,

Okay.

At

All right.

Yes.

was staying there.

So you got a call from her?

As I was proceeding to come down

Canfield from West Florissant.

10

What time of day would this have been?

11

You know,

12

Okay.

13

As I approached Canfield coming from West

14

Florissant,

15

confusion going on between a young male and an

16

officer.

I was,

later in the day, about 11:30.

I had stopped because I seen some

17

Okay.

18

Two door

19

Was there any cars in front of you or

20

behind you?

21

22
23
24
25

What kind of car were you driving?

Yes, ma'am.

There was a white pickup

truck that was behind me.


Q

And he was stopped too because you

couldn't move?
A

Yes, ma'am.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 12

And you said you were stopped because

there was some confusion going on, was it between a

police officer, you said, and we know that person to

being Mike Brown now?

Yes, ma'am.

Where was the police car?

In the middle of Canfield.

All right.

light?

10

About there.

11

Okay.

12

Where you just shined the

(indicating)

And what kind of car was it that

the police was in?

13

The mobile reserve truck.

14

Like SUV?

15

Yes, ma'am.

16

And how was the car, what position was the

17

car in as it was stopped there between Canfield

18

Drive, near Canfield Drive?

19

He was slanted.

20

Caddiefield?

21

He was facing towards West Florissant.

22

Like his front was facing this way?

23

(indicating)

24

Yes, ma'am.

25

Was it, was he, you know,

in the lane as

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 13

he should have been or was he?

He was.

Breaching the lanes?

He was in both lanes.

Okay.

He was in both lanes.

Okay.

10

lanes.

11

to.

13

So you

couldn't get around him or could you?

12

He was in both lanes.

I could have, but he was still in both


I could have eased around him if I wanted

But you didn't think you should ease

around?

14

No,

15

So what are you seeing as you are sitting

16

there?

17

Uh, Mr. Brown struggling to get away from

18

the officer.

19

20
21

I'm not moving at that moment.

Now,

I need you to describe what

struggling looks like?


A

Like the officer was holding onto

22

Mr. Brown, pulling him towards him as Mr. Brown

23

forcing to get back away from him.

24

25

doing?

All right.

What was Mr. Brown's hands

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 14

Struggling with the officer to let go of

All right.

him.

Did you know Michael Brown

before this day?

No, ma'am.

How long have you lived in the Canfield

Green Apartments?

Since the beginning of

Okay.

10

Yes.

11

And you had never met him?

12

No,

13

You didn't know the police either?

14

No, ma'am.

15

So as he's struggling,

So like

don't know anybody out there.

is this the very

16

first time you saw the police car in relation to

17

Mike Brown was when you saw them struggling at the

18

car?

19

Yes, ma'am.

20

You didn't see what happened before then?

21

No.

22

All right.

23

So you never saw the police

officer drive in reverse?

24

No, ma'am.

25

Okay.

All right.

So they're struggling

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 15

as you put it, did you ever see Mike Brown striking

the officer with his fist?

No, ma'am.

How close were you to the police car, you

know, where the incident was occurring?

Uh,

I don't know how --

Can you put it in car lengths, uh, like

how many car lengths were you from the police car

and Mike Brown and the officer?

10
11

In car lengths,

I would say about four or

five cars.

12

Okay.

So the distance between four and

13

five cars is how far you were from Mike Brown and

14

the officer?

15

Yes, ma'am.

16

Could you see clearly though what was

17

going on?

18

No, the only thing I could see was just a

19

struggle of Mr. Brown trying to get away from the

20

police officer.

21

Okay.

23

Yes, ma'am.

24

Could you see one side better than the

22

25

And could you see the entire police

car?

other side of the police car?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 16

Yes, ma'am, which was the side that

Mr. Brown was on, which would be the driver's side.

The driver's side of the police car?

Yes.

All right.

was wearing?

Do you recall what Mike Brown

shorts I,

I remember flip flops,

some high socks and

can't remember the shirt.


Did he have on anything on his head that

10

you recall?

11

No, huh-uh.

12

Do you recall, or you saying he did not?

13

I don't recall seeing him with anything on

14

his head.

15

Could you see the police officer?

16

No, all I could see was his arms mainly.

17

couldn't see his face.

18

You couldn't see his face?

19

No, ma'am.

20

But you saw his arms?

21

Yes, ma'am.

22

What was his arms doing?

23

Pulling Mr. Brown towards him.

24

Like with two arms?

25

Yes, ma'am.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 17

So he had two arms where on Mike Brown?

Uh,

and struggling to hold onto his neck.

I see he was holding onto his shirt

You saw the officer with his hand on Mike

Brown's neck?

Uh-huh.

One holding his shirt?

Holding his shirt and struggling with the

9
10

One was holding his shirt.

other one to hold onto his neck to pull him towards


him.

11

Was he saying anything?

12

No, rna' am, not that I recall.

13

Were you close enough to hear?

14

No, ma'am.

15

All right.

16

And what's your vision like,

do you have good vision?

17

Yes, ma'am.

18

Do you wear glasses or contacts?

19

No, ma'am.

20

What's your hearing like,

21

I've got good hearing.

22

Good hearing?

is your hearing?

So if they were saying

23

something,

24

have heard it or you weren't close enough?

25

I'm not clear, do you think you would

I don't think I was close enough to hear

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed b

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 18

anything.

But you were close enough to see clearly?

Yes, ma'am.

And then what happens after the

struggling?

Uh, that's why I see the first shot go off

and Mr. Brown, I don't want to say I'm guessing,

Mr. Brown was hit at close range and he gets loose

and proceeds up Canfield.

10

Which way?

11

Towards Northwinds, not going towards West

12

Florissant, going deeper into the apartments.

13

Let's talk about when you heard the first

14

shot.

So the first shot that you heard, was the

15

officer still in the car?

16

Yes, ma'am.

17

And Mike Brown was still at the driver's

18

side window?

19

Yes, ma'am.

20

Was the window down?

21

Yes, ma'am.

22

Did you see the officer's gun when you

23

fired the shot?

24

Yes, ma'am.

25

Tell us what that looked like, what you

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 19

were seeing?

A black, I say a black handgun.

Did the gun come out of the window or was

the gun still inside the car?

He came out his window.

Where was Mike Brown when the gun came out

the window?

window.

10
11

So Mike Brown was at the driver's window

and the gun comes out the window?

12

13

fired.

14
15

Still at the side of the police door

Shots fired, when the first shot was

And the first shot, was it right up on his

body as you saw it?

16

Yes.

17

Like I don't want,

I'm sorry,

I hope not

18

to touch you, but you understand like if this is

19

gun?

20

Close range.

21

How close?

22

Right there.

23

My hand was like maybe a foot from you?

24

Yes.

25

Okay.

Actually, a few inches,

6 to

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed b

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 20

12 inches from you?

Yes.

It didn't touch?

It wasn't too far away from him,

close range.

it was at

It was out of the car window where you

could see it?

Yes.

It appeared to you that Mike Brown was

11

Shot, yes.

12

Why did you think he was hit?

13

Because as he got hit, the officer let him

10

14
15
16

hit?

go, he kind of clenched and took off up Canfield.


Q

I want to know what he looked like when

the shot went off?

17

Like,

18

You can stand up and show us as much as

19
20
21
22
23

I don't know.

you can.
A

After the first shot got hit,

it hit him,

he clenched and turned and took up Canfield.


Q

(By Ms. Whirley)

Okay, all right.

And

which side of his body did it appear to hit?

24

My right side.

25

Your right side?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 21

Yes.

Okay.

Yeah,

On your right side, you hit your left

side,

here.

I say my right side.

I mean, you tell us maybe, this is your left

Q
A

11

he did?

12

It impacted him, he kind of gave a fold.

13

Towards his left?

14

Yes.

15

And he took off running?

16

Yes.

17

Was he running fast or stumbling?

18

Slow-ish.

19

Slow-ish, okay.

20

Like he barely even gave it a pursuit.

21

want to say that the shot affected him.

22

like, he barely gave it a run.

23

Okay.

24

car window?

25

He barely,

Did you hear just one shot at the

Yes.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 22

And then what happened?

Uh, that's when I kind of gave it a duck

as I see Mr. Brown pursuing up, my passenger that

was with me was jumping, scared out of her mind.

Who was your passenger?

I don't know her name,

I just gave her a

ride.

the McDonald's, but I have told her I just want to

grab my bills first before I dropped her off.

She stays in the apartments that's right by

10

Where did you pick her up at?

11

West Florissant and like Jennings Station

13

Okay, but you don't know her name?

14

No.

12

15

Road.

I just known her from being around my

mother's house.

16

She saw it too, right?

17

Yes.

18

Do you know if she's contacted the police

19

or anything?

20

I don't know.

21

Okay.

22
23

You know how we might be able to

get ahold of her to get her information?


A

I haven't seen her I haven't had a number,

24

if I have a way to get in touch I can give her all

25

your info.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 23

Let her know we want to hear what she has

to say too.

So at this point there's one shot out

the window at Mike Brown, it appears he's hit he

runs and then the officer does what?

Uh, gets out of his automobile and pursues

behind Mr. Brown.

Is he running?

Yeah, he gave, he ain't give it too much

10

of a run but he's running.

11

12

And what's his position,

I mean, show us

is he, where is his gun at this point?

13

Whose the step.

14

Uh-huh?

15

In his hand pursuing behind Mr. Brown.

16

How is he holding?

17

Like at his side.

18

At his side, okay.

20

No, ma'am.

21

Did you see a gun rather?

22

No, ma'am.

23

That's my question.

24

I didn't see Mr. Brown with a gun, a

19

25

Did Mike Brown have a

gun?

Did you see a gun?

stick, a knife or nothing.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 24

Okay.

And then what happens when the

officer is pursuing him with the gun at his side,

what hand was the officer holding the gun?

I say his right.

All right.

I guess Mr. Brown was getting tired or

And then what?

whatever the cause was, the shot must have affected

him, he stopped and threw his hands up.

Show us how he did that.

I mean, at this

10

point he's running away from the officer; is that

11

right?

12

Yes, ma'am.

13

Were shots being fired?

14

His friend that was with him,

I took it as

15

he was trying to see where his friend went because

16

Mr. Brown slowed up and looked at him like what you

17

doing, you stopped.

18
19

Let me back up a little bit so we can all

be clear.

20

Okay.

21

When did you see his friend?

22

At the same time I was seeing the

23
24
25

struggle.
Q

What was the friend doing when Mike Brown

was struggling?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 25

He was just standing there.

I don't even

know what was actually being said, but he was

standing there like he's confused on what was going

on.

Let me ask a question though.

Was

he doing anything, the friend?

Okay.

No.

As far as trying to help him get away

from the officer, no.


He was just standing at the car, where was

10

he at?

11

He was behind Mr. Brown.

12

The passenger side of the driver's side?

13

No, was behind him.

14

He is with Mr. Brown

on the driver's side.

15

Right behind him?

16

Yes, ma'am.

17

Was he behind him towards the passenger,

18

the back seat passenger or toward the hood of the

19

car?

20

The back of the

21

Okay.

22

suv.

What did he look like?

Make sure

we are talking about the same person.

23

Short guy, dreads.

24

Do you know his name?

25

No, ma'am.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 26

All right.

So when the shot went off,

what did he do?


A

The friend, he ducks behind the police

To the rear of the car?

Yes, ma'am.

And then Mike Brown then runs?

Yes, and I seen him, he stopped and looked

car.

back at his friend.

10

Who is he?

11

The friend.

12

No, you said he stopped and looked back at

13

the friend?

14

Mr. Brown.

As he stopped, I guess he

15

realized that the officer was approaching him, he

16

stopped and threw his hands up.

17
18

Okay.

You said that his friend was behind

the police car?

19

Uh-huh.

20

So how did he stop and look at him?

21

I don't mean to go past anybody, he was

22

jogging, but he stopped like this and if this is the

23

back of the police car.

24

Yeah, okay.

25

And this is the car that was behind the

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 27

police car.

this.

His friend was ducking behind like

Okay.

Mr. Brown he do like, uh, he turned around

and looked, by the time he looked, the police

officer was already behind him.

Okay.

And he was like this.

So did he do like this with the officer

10

behind him?

11

12
13

With the officer?

(indicating)

No, he was turned

around facing the office.


Q

Tell me how that happened, that's what I

14

want to know.

15

Brown, you're the police officer, you said that Mike

16

Brown was trotting or moving?

17
18

The last thing I know,

if I'm Mike

By then he turned around and his friend

duck down behind the car.

19

Okay.

20

And that's when the officer was

21

approaching him, he stopped and did like that.

22

(indicating)

23
24
25

So he wasn't facing the officer when me

did like this?


A

(indicating)

So as soon as he faced the officer, he

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 28

1
2

threw his hands up.


Q

I want to know how he got to facing the

officer since the officer was behind him.

Turned around.

Show us, please?

As his friend like this behind the police

car and the other car that's behind the police car,

which was a black, small four door.


MS. ALlZADEH:

10

(indicating)

Small what?

Black four door,

small car.

Mr. Brown was

11

running, he looks, the officer approached him and he

12

did like this.

13
14

(By Ms. Whirley)

Okay.

So you showed that

his hands are above his head?

15

Yes, ma'am.

16

Raised up toward the sky?

17

Yes, ma'am.

18

Did he say anything?

19

Not that I

20

him at that time,

know of.

was able to hear

was still in the same spot.

21

He's farther away from you now?

22

Yes.

23

So show us on the map where he turns

24
25

around and raises his hand?


A

Right up in there.

Right up in there.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 29

(indicating)

Is the light on?

Yeah, okay.

And then

what happens?

That's when I hear another shot fired.

One shot?

Yes, ma'am, and that's when Mr. Brown hits

the floor,

8
9

shots.

hits the ground rather.


Let me make sure I'm keeping track of the

The first shot you heard was when the

10

officer put his gun outside the window and shot at

11

Mike Brown, you said at pretty close range?

12

Yes.

13

No other shots until Mike Brown runs,

14

turns around with his hands up and then he shoots

15

him again?

16

Yes.

17

Is that right?

18

Yes.

19

And do you see any blood or anything?

20

Uh

21

On that second shot?

22

Not until he hit the ground.

23

All right.

24
25

shot,

Did you see any blood on fist

I don't think I asked you that.


A

No.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 30

2
3

4
5

So on the second shot, could you tell

where he was hit?


A

No,

I was too much of a distance.

I know,

they was facing each other.


Q

How close was the officer and Mike Brown

when the second shot went off?

Like this, me and you.

As close as we are?

Yes.

10

We are just a couple feet apart, right?

11

Yes.

12

So the officer shot him, he hits the

13

ground?

14

Yes.

15

How does he hit?

16

Uh --

17

I mean, what position is he in when he

18
19
20
21

hits the ground?


A

He is like this with his hands in the air

and also -- like this.

Okay.
I'm sorry,

(indicating).

So his face is facedown, do it

22

again,

23

poked up a little bit right?

24

Yes.

25

Okay.

facedown and his behind is kind of

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 31

I heard another shot fired as he was on

the ground.

One more shot?

Yeah.

And what was the officer's position could

you see the officer at that time?

guess,

By then he's just standing up on him,

calling.

You said you heard another shot when he

was on the ground?

15
16

Like be the officer and Mike Brown is

13
14

laying on the ground and what is the officer doing?

11
12

Yes, he was just standing up over up over

him.

10

As far as another shot, he was like this

up on him.

17

While he is on the ground,

18

Standing up over him.

19

He's standing up over him and he shoots

20

again?

21

Yeah.

22

Where does that shot seem to go?

23

Uh,

24

at,

25

the ground.

facedown?

for just me looking from where I was

I would say it was in the head because he was on

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 32

You thought he was shooting him in the

Yeah, he was shooting him in the head.

You only then heard then two shots total?

head?

MS. WHIRLEY:

MS. ALIZADEH:

That would be three.


Three?

Three, yes.

(By Ms. Whirley)

9
10
11

12
13

another shot, that's three.

I'm sorry, you have a


So you overheard, thank

you, three shots total?


A

Yes,

I was caught up with what was going

on, that's all I heard.


Q

So one at the car, one he turns around

14

with his hands up and then one when he's laying on

15

the ground?

16

Yes, ma'am.

17

Those are the only shots you heard?

18

Yes.

19

Okay.

20

Did you ever hear the officer say

anything?

21

As far as.

22

Anything at any time?

23

No, not until I was proceeding to go past

24
25

the parking lot


Q

which is

So after the officer you said shoots him,

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 33

you thought in the back of the head?

Yes.

Let me just go back a minute.

You've

probably been watching this being covered, this

being covered on television?

I, actually -- actually,

I haven't.

don't know what's going on behind it or anything.

just know I been getting talked to or interviewed.

Okay.

10

I try to stay clear just remember as much

11
12
13

as I can remember.
Q

And that's good.

And you talked to our

chief investigator here at the prosecutor's office,

14
15

Yes, and they asked me, it took a family

16

member of mine.

17

from it and let them handle it, but an uncle of mine

18

was like, you should at least have somebody hear

19

what you saw or at least tell what you saw.

20

what I looked up

21

without anybody.

22
23

Cause I was just going to stay away

That's

number and contacted him

From our office, you spoke with him on the

telephone, correct?

24

Yes.

25

And then you were interviewed by the

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 34

police; is that correct?

As far as I know, yes.

And maybe FBI?

Yes.

Have you only been interviewed once by the

police and FBI or were you interviewed more than

once?

9
10

I was interviewed first time by

had set it up, the second time probably no longer


that know a week ago and today.

11

Today, you mean being here today?

12

Yes.

13

You may not have heard since you said you

14

haven't been listening to it, but there were no

15

shots to the back of his head.

16

think he was shooting at him from the back while he

17

was down on the ground?

18

Uh, okay, when he was on the ground the

19

shot was fired.

20

head or not.

21

22

I don't know whether it was to his

And, again, there were only three shots

that you heard?

23

That I know of, yes.

24

All right.

25

So do you still

So after the officer fired

that shot at him while he was know on the ground,

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 35

1
2
3
4

5
6

what did the officer do?


A

Just stood over and,

I guess, got on his

radio to call for help.


Q

Okay.

And then what did he do, were you

still watching?
A

Yes,

I was.

I actually,

I actually was,

parked slanted.

of the two construction workers that was up there

and that quick glimpse was me walking back over

10

There was actually a video released

there to see what was going on.

11

Okay.

12

I had on a white and black stripe shirt.

13

Okay.

14

Yes,

15

Were you saying anything?


I was like, he was no fucking threat,

I'm sorry for cursing.

16

Yeah, we want to hear what you said.

17

I was just letting him know that he was no

18

fucking threat.

19

So that was you on the --

20

It was just a quick, that's the only thing

21

I had cause somebody came to me like, cause they

22

realized the shirt that I had been wearing.

23

you on CNN when they released a video of the two

24

construction workers, which was working in my

25

parking lot complex where I stay.

I seen

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 36

Okay.

And it was a quick glimpse of me walking

3
4

past saying, he wasn't no fucking threat.


Q

At that point where was the officer who

did the shooting when you were saying that he wasn't

no no fucking threat?

He was still there until the police

officer came.

He was still where?

10

Standing in the middle of Canfield.

11

Was he near the body?

12

Near Mr. Brown.

13

Okay.

14

Did he try -- appear to give

Mr. Brown any type of emergency help or anything?

15

No, ma'am, no, ma'am.

16

But it does seem like he was calling for

17

other police?

18

Yes.

19

And tell us how you got up here closer to

20

the scene, what did you do?

21

Okay.

By then I went around.

22

You were back here?

23

Mr. Brown and the officer was where

24

Mr. Brown was laying at, and that's when I went

25

around Mr. Brown and then went to my apartment

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 37

complex.

2
3

Okay, slow down just a minute.

Where was

Mr. Brown laying?


I want to say right where this car is

right here.

And you were where when you saw it?

When I first started it was up here.

How did you get past that?


MS. ALIZADEH:

10

Yes, ma'am.

12

MS. WHIRLEY:

I'm going to go over here,

it might make it easier if you step that way.

14

(By Ms. Whirley)

15
16

Can I ask you to step to

the side and use the pointer so we can see?

11

13

(indicating)

MS. ALIZADEH:

Show us where the area

I didn't see where you said

you were when you saw this?

17

( Indicating)

18

MS. ALIZADEH:

19

Yes, ma'am.

You were right there?


And after everything was

20

over,

I went on around and that's where I seen

21

Mr. Brown laying on the ground bleeding from his

22

head,

I guess from the impact from the ground.

23

Okay.

24

Him and the officer in the middle of the

25

street,

And then what?

I was able to go around to get to my

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 38

apartment complex where I was at in here.

(indicating)

Go ahead, what were you going to say?

No, that's how I got around and I was able

to get in here.

when I came and I was up here on the little grass

watching everything.

I had parked slanted and that's

You parked and came back up to see what

was going on?

10

Yes, ma'am.

11

And that's when you said, he was no

12
13
14
15
16
17

fucking threat?
A

Yes, ma'am.

I was screaming it through

the whole thing.


Q

And did you see any police officers other

than the one who did the shooting?


A

No, not for about,

I say about five

18

minutes max.

19

All right.

20

And that's when I see, that's when the

21
22

rest of the officers came, you know.


Q

Did you have any interaction at all with

23

Darren Wilson, the officer who did the shooting, did

24

you talk with him at all?

25

No, ma'am.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 39

Did he say anything to you?

No, not until I went past.

the fuck did you shoot him like that.

like, you keep fucking going.

I go, why in
And he's

All right.

So you go past Darren Wilson?

Yeah, in the middle of the street.

You walking or in your car?

I'm driving.

So as you drive past?

10

Uh-huh.

11

Before you parked and got out of the car?

12

Yes.

I was like, why the fuck did you

13

shoot him like that.

14

business.

15

here and I walked across.

16

He was like, mind your fucking

I kept going.

That's when I came up in

So just make sure I'm clear.

You're

17

driving by, you shout out, why did you fucking shoot

18

him?

19

Yes, ma'am.

20

And he said, mind your own fucking

21

business, keep going?

22

Yes.

23

And then you parked the car?

24

Yes, ma'am.

25

And you get out and you come up to the

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 40

area

I ain't go no farther than this.

That's where you say, he was no fucking

4
5

threat?
A

I was walking across the parking lot to

come right here when that video was captured.

(indicating)

I'm more interested in what really

happened versus the video.

10

Yes, ma'am.

11

Tell me what you meant, he was no fucking

12

threat?

13

Urn,

like as far as --

14

You can have a seat for a minute.

15

As far as being a threat,

like if he had a

16

gun or a knife or even if he did assault the officer

17

or what happened,

18

So I took it as he was no threat and you gunned him

19

down like that.

20
21
22

I didn't see him do none of that.

And you were clear, in your mind, you were

clear what was going on at the police car?


A

Yes,

23

to get away.

24

25

police car?

I literally saw Mr. Brown struggling

You never saw Mr. Brown's hand inside the

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 41

No, ma'am.

What was he doing with his hand again?

Struggling to get the officer's hands off

of him.

I didn't see that.

As far as swinging and hitting the officer,

As he's struggling, did you ever see his

hands go in the officer's face?

No, ma'am.
MS. WHIRLEY:

10

MS. ALIZADEH:

11

Kathi?
Yeah.

(By Ms. Alizadeh)

So when you said you

12

drove up onto Canfield, you had a passenger in your

13

car?

14

Yes, ma'am.

15

Have you ever told anybody that before?

16

Yes, ma'am.

17

And so you were driving this way around

18

here?

(indicating)

19

Yes, coming off of West Florissant.

20

You said you stopped right about here, or

21

thereabouts.

You said it was right about here?

22

Yes, ma'am.

23

So how many cars were between you and the

24
25

officer's car?
A

Total like in the middle, it was in the

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 42

middle of us?

behind him, it was me and the truck behind me.

3
4

It was just his car and the car

So you're saying that there were no cars

between you and the police officer's car?

No, ma'am.

And then you had a white truck behind you?

A white pickup truck was behind.

A white pickup truck?

Yes.

10

Did you see a blue pickup truck?

11

No.

12

No?

13

(Shakes head.)

14

Did you see anybody standing around here?

15

(indicating)

16

No, not that I remember.

17

And so when you came about, you said there

18

was already,

19

altercation going on?

20
21

I'm guessing, there was already an

As soon as I approach Canfield to go to my

apartment complex, the struggle is already going on.

22

And you said Mike Brown was trying to get

24

Yes.

25

And I don't understand why you conclude

23

away?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 43

that, what was he doing, why did you think he was

trying to get away from the officer?


Because the officer was pulling,

struggling.

the officer's shirt?

Did you see Mike Brown with his hand on

As far as his arm,

yes, trying to get the

officer's arm to release him.

You said the officer had him by the shirt?

10

As if you were,

11

strangling,

12

my neck, that's how it was.

13

if you were just

I'm going to go for your arms to release

So you know Mike Brown was like 6'5", big

15

Big guy.

16

280 pounds or something?

17

Yeah.

18

And so you're telling me if somebody had

14

guy?

19

ahold of his shirt, you don't think he could get

20

away?

21

I'm guessing if he wanted to he could.

22

If I grab ahold of your shirt, stand up.

23

How tall are you?

24

I say about 5'9",

5'10".

25

How much do you weigh?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 44

170.

So do you think if I grab ahold of your

shirt?

5
6
7

If you got a good enough hold,

I can't

getaway from you.


Q

If I'm sitting in the car and I grab ahold

of your shirt, if you just fell backwards.

Uh-huh.

Don't you think that I would lose my grip

10

when the shirt would rip?

11

Not if you got a good enough grip.

12

Okay.

So you say that you think Mike

13

Brown was trying to get away from the officer and

14

that's what you were witnessing?

15

Yes.

16

And then you said you saw the officer's

17

gun come out of the window of his car?

18

Yes.

19

And fire one shot?

20

Yes.

21

The gun was within half a foot?

22

Yes.

23

Of Mike Brown?

24

Close range,

25

And that would have been pointed where on

yes.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 45

his body?

Chest,

chest.

In his chest area?

Yes.

So that would be an entrance wound in his

chest and it would be pretty much straight back,

right?

Yes.

The gun, was the gun angled in anyway, was

10

the gun like this,

or was it like this?

11

No,

12

And then you say Mike Brown at that point

13

it was pointed right at him.

pulls back and runs?

14

Yes.

15

Did you see any blood when he got shot?

16

No.

17

And then when he ran away and turned

18

around,

19

No.

20

You said he was shot at point blank range

21

I mean,

could you see the blood then?

on his chest?

22

Yes.

23

You telling me when he turned around,

24
25

you

didn't see any blood?


A

Huh-uh.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 46

What about the other guy, did you see

anything in his hand?

No.

Did you see Mike Brown hand him anything?

No, ma'am.

And so you say that you saw Mike Brown as

he was running away look at his friend?

Uh-huh.

Look at him kind of slow down and look at

10

him and then keep running?

11

No, as he slowed down, turned around,

12

that's when he threw his hands up cause he realized

13

the officer was not that much of a distance from

14

him.

15

So you're saying it was, his friend was

16

close to him when he turned around?

17

stopped about when he saw his friend is where he

18

turned around?

19

Uh-huh.

20

Yes?

21

Yes.

22

I mean, he wasn't that far.

No

further this man right here in this chair.

23

This man right here?

24

Yes.

25

You said he

That's when he turned around and

realized that his friend was ducked behind a police

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 47

car.

2
3

The friend was behind the police car, did

the friend ever run away or run behind another car?

No.

When I

seen him he was ducked between

the police car and the vehicle that was behind the

police car.

Now,

Yes, ma'am.

What color was the car behind the police

11

Black.

12

And so the friend was not ducked behind

10

13

you have a red car, right?

car?

that car?

14

Yes.

15

He was behind the police car?

16

Yes.

17

So when you say Mike Brown turned around,

18

the officer was right there; is that right?

19

Yes.

20

Did he walk toward the officer at all?

21

No.

22

He didn't come toward the officer?

23

No.

24

And you say that from the point he turned

25

around is when he got shot?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 48

Before he turned around he had his hands

in the air.

or a back or flench like he was going to try to run

at him or nothing.

I didn't see him take a forward step,

So you didn't see him move forward or back

after he turned around and put his hands up?

Put his hands up, that was it.

And the officer was within how close?

10

Tell me to stop when I


you,

you tell me when?

11

Right there.

12

Right here.

13

Right there.

14

Okay.

15

So this is probably about four,

five feet?

16

Roughly,

17

Okay.

18

I'm going to walk toward

yes.

And the officer, was his hand fully

extended or was his hand down here?

19

Extended.

20

Fully extended?

21

(Nods head. )

22

23

All right.

And you saw him then shoot

Mike Brown and you said in the head?

24

Uh-huh.

25

In his head?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 49

2
3
4
5

That's why I was afraid of them being so

close and he just tipped right over.


Q

Are you saying you saw it or you just

figure that?
A

saw him shoot, but I

figure that it was

in the head, how he just limped over and just fell.

So you don't know where he was shot?

No.

You're just guessing because he fell over?

10

Yes.

11

And then once he's on the ground you see

12

the officer standing right over him and shoot him

13

while he's lying face first on the ground?

14

Yes, ma'am.

15

So after the police car is a black car you

16

said, is there another car after the black car?

17

Not that I remember.

18

And you're saying where this white car is

19

on the map is about where Mike Brown stopped running

20

and turned around?

21

Yes, ma'am.

22

And that would have been where he fell

23

then since you said he didn't move forward or

24

backward at this point?

25

Yes, ma'am.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 50

Now,

from where you were then you drove

past the officer and parked in your parking space

here.

After everything was over, yes.

Did you ever come back up here and talk to

people up in this area?

No.

Did somebody ever give you a business

10

No.

11

Nobody ever gave you a card, told them

12

card?

they saw it too?

13

No.

14

And you say you did another interview with

15
16
17

the FBI a week ago?


A

I don't know the exact date, but it was no

longer than a week ago.

18

Where did that happen?

19

The interview?

20

Uh-huh.

21

I'm guessing at headquarters on Market.

22

Downtown?

23

Yes, ma'am.

24

And the passenger that you said that was

25

in your car.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 51

Uh-huh.

So what happened to her?

She end up taking off walking up to the

apartments where she was going, which is behind the

McDonald's,

but she had proceeded to go there.

I don't know the name of the apartments,

When did she get out of your car?

After I had parked.

So you -- she would have been in your car

10

when you passed by the police officer and heard what

11

the police officer said to you?

12

Uh-huh.

13

You don't know this person's name?

14

No, ma'am.

15

Why did you give her a ride?

16

She was a familiar face,

17

stayed by my

mother's house.

18

She's somebody you've seen before?

19

Yes, ma'am.

20

And you know whereabout she lives?

21

No, ma'am.

22

Is she African-American or white?

23

She's black or African-American rather.

24

I'm sorry?

25

African-American rather.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 52

She is about how old?

I say 20, 21.

You don't have any name for her?

No, ma'am.
MS. ALIZADEH:

MS. WHIRLEY:

10

I just have a couple things.

(By Ms. Whirley) When Mike Brown was

running, was the officer shooting at him at that


point while he was running?

11

No, ma'am.

12

Okay.

13

I don't have

anything else.

All right.

Did you ever talk to Mike Brown's

mother?

14

I have seen her.

She was out there, but I

15

didn't get to talk to her as far as like anything

16

dealing with this.

17
18

Did she know you were a witness to all of

Yes, not from me though, from other people

this?

19
20

seen me out there or heard me out there yelling.

21

They must have told her that.

22

How do you know she knew that?

23

I don't know that she knew if I seen it or

You said from other people?

24
25

not.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 53

Yes, yes, from telling.

What makes you think that she knew that

you saw it?

out there.

Other people must have told her that I was

You never talked to her on the phone or

anything?

No.
MS. WHIRLEY:

10

I'm trying to

11

visualize your perspective but when the scene was

12

kind of concluding.

13

driver's seat of your car, when you are viewing, as

14

you said, Officer Darren Wilson, you said he's got

15

his gun aimed, you can see his back, are they

16

perfectly lined up, are they off to an angle, what's

17

your perspective?

18

19

You are still sitting in the

I can't understand, what's that.


I'm trying to understand

20

your perspective of what you saw from your car right

21

as the scene was concluded.

22

can see the back of Officer Darren Wilson, but are

23

they standing at an angle, are they perfectly lined

24

up,

25

I'm going to guess you

I guess, what is your perspective?


A

I mean, where you coming from,

as far as

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 54

after the first shot?

The very end of the scene.

The very end of the scene?


Yeah.

You said you could

see Officer Darren Wilson's back, but you were also

stating that you could that he see him shot in the

head, or you assume he shot him in the head.

just trying to understand was that at an angle to

where he could see the front of Michael Brown and

10

the back of Officer Darren Wilson.

11

straight on, what was your angle from your

12

perspective with respect to the vehicle?

13

I'm

Were they

No, he was, whatever the officer name, he

14

was facing toward this way now on his intercom or

15

whatnot.

16
17

So you could see Officer


Darren Wilson's back?

18

No,

I couldn't.

After everything is over

19

and Mr. Brown is on the ground,

20

side.

21
22

I see his face, back

You understand what I'm


saying?

23

Yeah,

24

understand what you are saying.

25

could see Michael Brown turn around.

I do

I think you say you

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 55

Yeah, turned around.

Mr. Brown when he turned around?


Yes.

4
5

As far as in my car, yes.


And your back was to the

police officer at that time?


A

The police officer's back was towards me.

Yes.

10

officer's back was towards you?

11

14
15

The police

Yes.

12
13

Were you facing

Mr. Brown when he turned around and fell?

6
7

Oh, after I see

When he shot him while he


was laying on the ground?
A

No, while he shot him while he was laying

on ground he's facing towards me.

16

So how did he get from

17

facing Michael Brown and watching him fall, he

18

walked forward and shot him on the ground, how did

19

the officer's face get towards you, did he walk

20

around the body?

21
22

Yes, he was just proceeding around the

body and got on his intercom, yes.

23

So he was walking around

24

Michael Brown's body and then he shot him after he

25

walked around the body?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 56

No.
MS. ALIZADEH:

I have a question to maybe

clear this up.

stops running and turns around, okay.

From the point that Michael Brown

Uh-huh.
MS. ALIZADEH:

And the officer has been

chasing him and he's within 5 feet of him at that

point.

Uh-huh.

10

He's directly in front of Michael Brown,

11

correct?

12

Yes.

13

And you are behind the officer?

14

Yes, facing him.

15

That's the point where I

was
MS. ALIZADEH:

16

How could you see what

17

Michael Brown was doing if the officer is between

18

you and Michael Brown?

19

Like you say, he was a big guy and that's

20

a nice amount of street where I can see.

21

with his hands up, yes.

22
23
24
25

I saw him

But wasn't the officer partially blocking

your view of Michael Brown?


A

Yes, partially, yes, he was blocking my

view, yes.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 57

1
2

There is a part of Michael Brown that you

could not see because the officer was in the way?


A

Yes, when I

Could you see Michael Brown's face?

No.

The officer was blocking your view of

3
4

seen that his hands was in the

air.

Michael Brown's face?

Partially, yes.

10

Could you see the middle of Michael

11

Brown's thighs?

12

No, no.

13

So the officer was blocking your view of

14

really all of Michael Brown's body except you could

15

see his hands in the air?

16

Yes.

17

I think

18

you said that the distance between the officer and

19

Michael Brown, he is stopped and had his hands up in

20

the air was about approximately four to five feet?

21

Uh-huh.

22

All right.

And I think

23

you said that the officer had his hands with the

24

gun, right hand with the gun as it is fully extended

25

toward Michael Brown?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 58

Yes, ma'am.

2
3
4

And then the officer shot,


he shot the gun at that time?
A

He fired,

yes, ma'am.

5
6
7

And that would have been,


I think, the second shot I think you said?
A

Yes, ma'am.
Okay.

9
10
11

And then Michael

Brown falls forward, he is falling toward the


officer then; is that correct?
A

He didn't like fall stumbling towards him,

12

once he shot him with his hands in air, he fell

13

right on the ground.

14
15
16

Okay.

All right.

Into a

Okay.

And so you said

dead fall basically?


A

Yes.

17
18

that he never moved, you did not see Michael Brown

19

move any steps forward or any steps backward from

20

the officer?

21

Yes, ma'am.

22

At any time when you heard

23

that second shot, okay, before Michael fell, did you

24

see the officer move back, or forward or to the

25

right or to the left of Mr. Brown?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 59

Once Mr. Brown hits the ground, the

officer takes a step back.

A step back.

Uh-huh.
My question is, I don't

know if you know the answer to this.

I can answer it to the best that I can.

8
9

With Michael Brown being


6'5", and we have four to five foot difference, why

10

did Michael Brown's body not hit the officer when he

11

fell?

12

I mean, I wouldn't know.

13
14

You wouldn't know, okay.


A

15
16

I wouldn't know.
MS. WHIRLEY:

If nobody else has

something, I have something.

17

You talked to the police, well, actually

18

the FBI, two agents on August the 18th.

19

second interview, the first time you talked to

20

someone at our office.

21

22

Uh-huh.
(By Ms. Whirley) On August 12th you talked

23

to a couple federal agents.

24

second time you interviewed?

25

This is the

Do you recall that, the

Uh-huh.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 60

And

was there too at that interview.

And on August the 18th, and I have a transcript of

it and nobody's seen it yet, but they will.


You told them, and tell me if this

refreshes your recollection or not.

that there was one shot in the car and Mike Brown

was shot at four times while he was running away and

then he was shot two more times in the face once he

turned around, and then when he fell on the ground,

10

You told them

he was shot four or five more times?

11

Uh-huh.

12

Do you recall saying that?

13

No, ma'am.

14

What part do you recall?

15

As far as being shot at as he was

16

The majority of it, yes.

proceeding to run.

17

Okay.

So today you said he wasn't shot at

18

while he was running, but you remember him being

19

shot at four times while he's running away now that

20

refreshed your recollection?

21

Yes.

22

Do you remember telling the officers that

23

he was shot two times in the face?

24

No.

25

And you actually said face-to-face he was

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 61

shot, do you remember that?

Yes.

Don't you remember telling the officers

that after he fell on the ground, he was shot four

or five more times while the officer stood over him?

Yes,

You remember that?

I remember that.
Today I think you told

us he was shot once, right?

Yes, ma'am.

10

What's the change for you?

11

As far as like the FBI said in my last

12

interview, none of my forensic science added up to

13

it.

14

Okay.

We want to know what you say.

You

15

don't have to be concerned with forensic science,

16

none of us are forensic scientist.

17

Yes.

18

We just want to know the truth and what

19

happened.

20

statements as far as about how many times he was

21

shot or shot at?

22

23

was fired.

24

was fired,

25

yeah.

So tell me why you changed your

My calculation was off.

How many shots

I had counted as far as how many shots


I had heard about eight or nine shots,

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 62

And today you told us only three?

Yes, only three that I know that he was

No, no, I asked you about the shots, this

3
4

hit.

is really important.

I mean --

Yes, ma'am.

We're here, we're spending a lot of time

trying to figure out what happened.

I just need to know the truth.

And it's okay,

I'm not trying to

10

give you a hard time, we just need to know the

11

truth.

12

I understand.

13

You understand what I'm saying?

14

Yes.

15

So which one is true, did you hear only

16

three shots total or this is like, he was shot once

17

and then shot four times and he's running away and

18

then shot two more times in the face, and then shot

19

four or five more times.

20

shots total that you told them on August the 18th.

That is like 10 or 11

21

Yes.

22

So was it actually three shots you heard

23
24
25

or was it 10, 11 shots you heard?


A

Altogether I heard approximately about

eight or nine shots if I ain't hallucinating or

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 63

making it more than what I heard,

nine shots.

about eight or

Now, you weren't hallucinating back when

you talked to the police, were you?

Not that I know, no.

Could you possibly have been

hallucinating?

What you mean?

You used the word hallucinating, what did

10
11
12

you mean by hallucinating?


A

By how many shots was fired,

I could have

counted more than what it was.

13

Do you think that's what happened, you

14

added more?

15

Yes, how many shots was fired,

16

Okay.

17

Uh,

yes.

And why would you do that?

I mean,

I heard about eight or nine

18

shots, but as far as hearing what the FBI was saying

19

and all about how they, how everything was off.

20

try to push myself to actually concentrate on what

21

actually, how many shots was actually fired.

22
23

Because after all of this was over,

went into a blur.

24
25

MS. ALIZADEH:
A

You went where?

I went to a blur of everything.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 64

1
2

MS. ALIZADEH:
A

The whole shooting and all that.


MS. ALIZADEH:

3
Q

After what was over?

After the shooting?

(By Ms. Whirley)

Okay.

And again, this is

so important so I need to ask you because I'm really

kind of confused.

Yes, ma'am.

How many shots did you really hear after I

refreshed your recollection, after what you told us

10

here today, what would you say as far as how many

11

shots you actually heard that day?

12

I say about seven, eight shots.

13

Okay.

14

Tell us where those shots occurred?

Like heard one shot at the car you said?

15

Uh-huh.

16

Go ahead and tell us about the rest of the

17

shots.

18

19

passenger,

Well,

I heard, as I'm dealing with my

I heard like two more shots.

20

What was happening?

21

Mr. Brown was proceeding away.

22

He was running with his back to officer?

23

Yes, ma'am.

24

When you heard two more shots?

25

Yes, ma'am.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 65

Okay, that's three.

Yes.

Then what?

That's when the officer and Mr. Brown came

face-to-face.

Okay.

How many shots when he was

face-to-face?

That was just the one I heard.

Did he appear to be shooting him in the

10

face the way you thought back on the 18th of August?

11
12
13
14

Yes,

Okay.

would have thought it was in the

face.
So that's like, now we're in four

shots, is that right, that's four?

15

And that's when he hit ground.

16

He hit the ground and then what?

17

18

Okay.

heard another one, two shots.


Now, back on the 18th you actually

19

told the police that you talked to Mike Brown's

20

mother, do you remember that?

21

Uh-huh.

22

So you actually, actually I talked to her

23

the same day, but I haven't talked to her since.

24

Uh-huh.

25

Did you talk to her?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 66

Uh-huh.

No, no, no, did you talk to her the day of

the shooting?

I haven't heard

No,

it was brief.

I was there and your

son wasn't no threat and then after that

Wait, wait, wait a minute.

question is, did you talk to her.

yes?

Okay.

Is that answer

Like did I say anything to her?

10

You see how we're talking?

11

Yes.

12

Okay.

13

We didn't have a

14

I'm going to ask you that.

15

with her,

Did you speak

let me rephrase.

16
17

Now, my

Did you speak to Mike Brown's mother


at all the day of the shooting?

18

Yes, ma'am.

19

Okay.

20

Your son was no threat.

21

Did she ask you anything?

22

No.

23

You just walked up to her --

24

All she said was for me to just tell the

25

truth.

Whether her son was in the wrong or was he

Tell me how you spoke to her?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 67

not in the wrong, that was all she said and that was

that.

Okay.

Okay.

What did you say to her?

As far as I seen her son wasn't a threat.

Okay.

And you said?

And then was there anything else

discussed?

No, ma'am.

10

And tell us again how she knew how to come

11

talk to you about it?

12

Other people in the complex.

13

How did they know that you knew anything?

14

Some people was on the porch,

15

I guess, and

some people I heard yelling out there.

16

MS. WHIRLEY:

There may be more questions.

17

I just want to ask you,

18

us to know as far as this investigation goes that

19

you think is important to know and, you know,

20

want to change anything that you said, we need the

21

truth.

22

this point, we want to know what really happened.

23

24

25

is there anything you want

if you

We're not going to hold it against you at

Right.
(By Ms. Whirley)

Is there anything you

want to change?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 68

No, ma'am.

I'm just here to give you all

a little vision what I saw.

much.

Okay.

I only remember so

Is there anything else that you

think is important for us to know?

No, ma'am.

MS. WHIRLEY:

Okay.

Other questions?

MS. ALIZADEH:

, you're saying that you changed your

So just basically,

10

recollection of how things happened after the feds

11

told you it couldn't have happened the way you

12

originally described it, is that fair to say?

13

14

actually go on what I remember.

15
16

MS. ALIZADEH:

And so now your memory has

changed?

17
18

Yes, that's when I went and try to

No,

I'm remembering what I'm telling you

now.

19

MS. ALIZADEH:

You told three different

20

stories in the time we've been here today.

21

want to know which one is really your memory or did

22

you see this at all?

23

So I

Yes, see, this is one of the reasons why I

24

didn't want to get involved because now I feel like,

25

y'all taking me as liar when I'm not and I was

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 69

there.

there,

telling you.

stories,

remember.

10

Whether that was two, three different

I'm only going on so much that I can

But you today said that the

reason that you changed your story today?

I know I was

I can only remember so much of what I'm

MS. ALIZADEH:

I'm going to say once again,

Is because the FBI say my forensic science

wasn't right.

So that's why I went back and try to

actually remember what I saw.


MS. ALIZADEH:

11

So what is your memory

12

today, what is it?

13

there ten shots, were there three?

14

15

Were there nine shots, were

It wasn't nine, ten shots.


MS. ALIZADEH:

What do you remember

16

happening as you sit here today, how many gunshots

17

did you hear?

18

I can only remember when Mr. Brown got

19

shot leaving the vehicle, so when he got hit on the

20

ground.

21
22
23

MS. ALIZADEH:
car?
A

24
25

One shot when he was at the

Yes.
MS. ALIZADEH:

And when was the next shot?

When he was proceeding to run from the

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 70

vehicle.

2
3

MS. ALIZADEH:
A

5
6

Like two.
MS. ALIZADEH:

MS. ALIZADEH:

the ground.

10

MS. ALIZADEH:
A

MS. ALIZADEH:

13

ground, how many shots?


A

15

18

And then he hit the ground?

And then after he hit the

About two or three more shots.


MS. ALIZADEH:

How many shots then?

Yes.

12

17

And then

Just that one and that's when he landed to

16

Okay.

Yes.

14

Two now.

you saw him turn around?

11

How many shots?

So now there's seven shots?

Yes.
MS. ALIZADEH:

anything else.

19

All right.

I don't have

Anybody else?
I just want to

20

proceed if you can provide any more context to that

21

statement you made right there at the end that he

22

wasn't a threat.

23

you shared it with Michael Brown's mother, what

24

specifically was it that you personally that day

25

saw, heard, witnessed the actions that made you

You shared it with the officer,

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 71

assume that Michael Brown was not a threat?

2
3

When he stopped and threw his hands in the

air.
I have a couple

4
5

questions, this is

this happen, at one point you said you were directly

behind the police officer's car?

When you first saw

Huh?
You were directly --

10

In front of him.

11
12
13

In front of the police


officer's car?
A

Yes.

14

And then at one point you

15

said you were maybe four or five car lengths away.

16

Did you stop four or five car lengths away?

17

Before I was able to approach them,


Okay.

18

yes.

When you saw the

19

struggle going on even though there were no cars

20

between you,

21

you were four or five car lengths away?

Yes.

22
23
24
25

That is probably longer


than this whole room,
A

right?

Yes.
At

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 72

least twice this room or more.


Twice this room.

And you

are saying you can tell from twice the length of

this room that Michael Brown was trying to get away

from the police officer?

Yes.

7
8
9

And the police officer


was pulling his shirt and his neck?
A

Yes.

10

And you could tell that

11

that far away and there's no possible way that there

12

was a struggle and Michael Brown could have been

13

frying to fight the police officer?

14

No, that ain't what I saw.

15
16

From that far away?


A

Yes.

17

So that leads me to

18

another question.

19

officer had his hand on Michael Brown's shirt?

20

Yes.

21
22

And his neck.


A

Yes.

23
24
25

So you're saying that the police

And that is why he


couldn't get away?
A

Yes.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 73

1
2

Because he had two hands


on him?

Yes.

4
5

And then you saw the gun


come out of the car?

Uh-huh.

7
8

And shoot Michael Brown


in the chest?

Yes.

10

So whatever hand's left,

11

that leaves him one hand on Michael Brown to get the

12

gun?

13

Yes.

14
15

And then he shoots him?


A

Yes.

16

And it's at that point

17

after Michael Brown is actually injured that he's

18

able to get away?

19
20

Yes.
Why was he not able to

21

get away with all of his strength, non-injured but

22

he is able to get away injured.

23

officer is that strong from a sitting position and

24

Michael Brown is over him, why was he not able to

25

get away when the police officer let go of one his

If the police

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 74

arms?
I mean, you got to understand, and I don't

2
3

mean any disrespect.

probably horrific, this is just not making sense to

me.

Yeah,

I know what you had to see was

I got that 150 times.

I'm not saying you're

lying.

If none of my stuff is making any sense,

10

like why do y'all keep contacting me, y'all keep

11

bothering me.

12

first place.

I didn't want to get involved in the

13

This is very important.

14

I understand that and that's what drew me

15

to actually come in to say what I say and tell what

16

I saw.

17

Can I ask you one more

18

question?

19

police?

20
21

Have you ever been in trouble with the

Yes,

I've been to penitentiary and all of

that.

22
23

Okay.
A

So why would I bring myself here, why

24

would I give myself a free ticket to jail if y'all

25

want to accuse me of lying.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 75
I'm not accusing you of

lying,

I want you to know that.


No,

I understand that.

that everybody is saying my stuff don't match up.

5
6
7

I would be true to
myself.
A

I wouldn't bring myself here just let

y'all put me away from my family.


One more question.

10
11

14
15

They was in the air.


Were they here, where

they here, where they here?


A

I don't know,

(indicating)

I don't have a direct

estimate, they was in the air.

16

Okay.

17
18
19

where your position on the roadway on Canfield -A

Canfield.
-- Drive?

21

there,

22

on a downhill slope or
A

is it straight and level,

No,

24
25

Thank you.
From

20

23

How

far up were Michael Brown's hands?

12
13

I'm just saying

The roadway
or are you looking

it don't do nothing but swerve.


It is straight and level?

Yes.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 76

1
2

It is level and curvy?


Yes.

One quick

question.

passenger in your car was a distraction.

maybe go into what was distracting?

I think at one point you mentioned the


Can you

She was yelling, screaming and jumping

telling me to get away from there, which I wasn't

going to pull off, you know, drive away from the

10

scene.

I don't know what was capable of happening

11

me moving, so I just stood there.

12
13
14

A lot of chaos and


emotion.
A

Yes.

15
16
17

Could that have distracted


you a little bit from the scene in front of you?
A

Yes, sir.

18
19
20

Did that go on for how


long until you actually
A

Pulled up and parked, and that's when she

21

proceeded, she was sitting, she was watching what

22

was going on too.

23

doing.

24

police and people everywhere that she had came back

25

with some of her and her folks.

She proceeded to do what she was

I didn't see her until there was a bunch of

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 77

Okay.

When you

drove past the officer there, and you have made a

comment to the officer,

down correctly, could you tell me what you said to

the officer again as you drove by?

Why the fuck you shoot him like that.

Why the fuck you shoot him

I don't think I wrote it

like that.

At any time did you think,

I mean, if

10

you reportedly saw the officer shoot this guy in the

11

head, that he might turn and just shoot you and your

12

passenger?

13

Yes,

I felt that,

I felt that.

But at the

14

time I didn't,

I mean, at the time I'm guessing he

15

didn't realize what he put hisself into.

16

expected him like he might shoot me too, but I

17

wasn't to much worried about it.

18

went on and proceeded to park and got out of my

19

vehicle.

20

And that's why I

Okay.

21

MS. WHIRLEY:

22

All right.

23

coming.

24

questioning you.

25

So I

Anybody else?
, thank you for

I know it seemed like we were really

No, you are only doing your job.

Like I

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 78

say, I only come here to give what I can remember.

Like as far as what she said, how they were saying

it at the FBI, if you wasn't there,

wasn't there, but I was there and I'm not going to

say that.

give you y'all a free ticket to take me away from my

family.

I'm not going to bring myself here to

MS. WHIRLEY:

just say you

You were there, we don't

know exactly when you were there, but we certainly

10

saw on the video you talk about where you said he

11

was no fucking threat, that was you --

12

13

Yes.
MS. WHIRLEY:

on the video, okay.

So

14

thank you again for coming and that concludes this

15

portion of the question and answer period.

16

you

17
18

Thank

, I'll take you out.


(End of the testimony of
MS. ALIZADEH:

This is Kathi Alizadeh.

It

19

is 11:37 in the morning on October 20th.

Sheila

20

Whirley is here with me as well as all 12 grand

21

jurors and the court reporter who is taking down and

22

recording what's being said.

23
24

of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to

25

testify the truth, the whole truth, and

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 79

nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid,

deposes and says in reply to oral

interrogatories, propounded as follows,

to-wit:

EXAMINATION
MS. ALIZADEH:

At this time we're going to

pause the recording and I will have the witness

introduce

after that I will refer to

Witness Number 38.

10
11
12

self and identify

self and then


by a number, by

BY MS. ALIZADEH:
would you introduce yourself for

the grand jurors, please?

13

14

My name is
you are a little soft spoken

15

and that microphone in front of you does not amplify

16

your voice.

17

I'll speak louder.

18

If you speak loud enough that I can hear

19

you back here,

I know that they can all hear you.

20

My name is

21

And,

22

I'm

23

And where do you live?

24

On Canfield.

25

So you live in the Canfield Green

how old are you?


years old.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 80

Apartment Complex?

Yes,

I do.

And how long have you lived in those

apartments?

years.

I have lived in those apartments for

And so at this time,

I will instruct the

court reporter here in a second to begin the audio

recording.

And after we begin the audio recording,

10

I'm going to refer to you as Witness Number 38, is

11

that all right?

12

Okay.

13

You understand that?

14

I understand.

15

So, Witness Number 38, you just mentioned

16

to the grand jurors a bit ago that you live in the

17

Canfield Apartment Complex, correct?

18

do.

19

And can you use the laser pointer that's

20

in front of you, and I'm going to direct your

21

attention to a map, which we have marked as Grand

22

Jury Exhibit Number 25.

23

streets and buildings here as an aerial view of the

24

apartment complex?

25

Do you recognize the

I guess.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 81

So here is Canfield Drive?

Okay.

And this street runs through the complex?

Right.

So to the left of the map, out of sight,

guess, not on the map is West Florissant?

Uh-huh.

And driving this direction or east you hit

the Northwinds Apartments?

10

That's correct.

11

Now, do these streets look familiar to

13

Yeah.

14

Can you say, can you use that pointer and

12

15

you?

show me what building you live in?

16

I guess the address.

17

There are numbers on it if it would help

18

you,

I can bring it closer to you if you want to see

19

if you recognize the number of your unit.

20

Oh, yes,

21

So using that pointer, can you point where

22

I do,

sorry.

your apartment is?

23

( Indicating)

24

So this apartment is the front of this

25

apartment on Canfield Drive?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 82

Yes, it is.

And is your apartment unit actually facing

Canfield Drive?

Yes.

What floor do you live on?

I live on the

We've had other people kind of, we've seen

pictures of the building and had people describe it

for us, but am I correct that there's a front door

10

to your unit that leads to like a deck area?

11

Yes, porch, deck area.

12

Okay.

And then there's steps, exterior

13

steps that you would take to get down to the ground

14

level, correct?

15

That's correct.

16

Is there any other way out of your

17

apartment?

18

One way in, one way out.

19

Okay.

So on the day of August 9th of

20

2014, which was a Saturday, were you home that

21

morning?

22

Yes,

I was.

23

To the best of your recollection, was

24

there anything unusual or special that was going on

25

that day for you?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 83

A normal day.

And somewhere during the day,

at some

Q
A

Q
A

11

was?

12

I'm sorry,

13

Was it light outside?

14

Oh, yes.

15

And from what we know,

16

I don't.

is that August 9th

was a sunny day?

17

Yes.

18

No rain,

is that your recollection?

19

No rain,

sunny day, uh-huh.

20

And so when you exited your apartment, you

21

would of had to have come out the front;

22

correct?

is that

23

Yes, uh-huh.

24

Did you go directly down the stairs?

25

Yes,

I did.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 84

Can you use the laser pointer and show me

where the dumpster is that you were taking the

trash?

5
6

Let's see, that's kind of hard to say

because it is in the back of the building.


Q

I'm going to use my finger and point,

is

this the back of the building or is this the back of

the building?

10
11

Let's see, that's kind of hard to say,

that's Canfield.
Q

Look at me for a second.

Think to

12

yourself when you walk out of the building, which

13

direction do you turn?

14

I turn to the left.

15

Okay.

And then you go downstairs and when

16

you go down the stairs, are you facing Canfield when

17

you come off the stairs or?

18

Facing Canfield.

19

Okay.

20

So you're facing Canfield.

So what

direction do you turn to get to the trash?

21

To the left.

22

To the left?

23

Uh-huh.

24

Do you turn all away around 180 degrees.

25

So, in other words, you come down here now?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 85

(indicating)

Right.

Is this a walkway?

That's a walkway.

Is this the walkway you take to get to the

trash dumpster or did you go this way?

(indicating)

Let's see, that's a little confusing.

All

I know is I turn to the left where the parking area

is.

10

trash dumpster.

11
12

I go around the building to the back by the

Okay.

So you were walking in this

direction down this parking area?

13

I would think so.

14

Okay.

15

So when you came out of your

apartment, did you see anything unusual?

16
17

(indicating)

Well, saw a few people around, you know,

and other than two boys walking down the street.

18

19

the street?

20

Uh-huh.

21

And did you recognize either of those

23

No,

24

And when you say boys, are we talking

22

25

Okay.

So you saw two boys walking down

boys?
I didn't.

about little boys, we talking about teenagers or

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 86

1
2
3
4

adults?
A

Well,

I assumed they were teenagers, they

were big kids.


Q

And where were they walking, what street

were they on?

They were on Canfield.

And were they walking, if going down this

way is east, were they walking east or were they

walking that way?

10
11
12
13
14

West.

I would say west because they was

headed back towards the Northwinds Apartments.


Q

So they were headed towards the

apartment
A

They wasn't headed towards West

15

Florissant, they was headed away from West

16

Florissant.

17

Okay.

18

Yes, like they had come from the West

19
20

Like they had come from that?

Florissant area.
Q

And can you use the pointer and show me

21

where they were when you first saw them walking down

22

the street if this is your building?

23

That's my building.

I'm sure they was a

24

little east of my building, so I guess maybe right

25

along in there or something.

(indicating)

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 87

Okay.

There's a white car that's in this

map,

took this picture, was it around the area where that

car is?

6
7

it just happens to be there when the satellite

See,

Okay.

didn't see a car at first until I

saw
This car wouldn't have been there,

this is just a map, this was there when they took

the aerial shot.

10

So you saw them and where were

they in the street?

11

They were walking along by the sidewalk.

12

Okay.

13

the backs of them?

14

15

Okay.

16
17
18

Could you see the fronts of them or

guess the sides of them,

you know.

And so were they actually in the

street or on the sidewalk?


A

They were like along the curb sides of the

streets.

19

Still in the street?

20

Yes.

21

And when you first saw them, did you

22
23
24
25

notice anything about them?


A

No,

I just glanced and came around the

building.
Q

Anything about them like one was bigger,

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 88

l o n e was smaller, one was older, one was younger,


2

anything like that?

I couldn't tell their age, but one was

bigger, a bigger kid and the other kid, excuse me,

was a thinner kid, you know, uh-huh.

bigger kid was wearing?

8
9

I sure don't because I didn't focus in on

Okay.

something, uh-huh.
Q

15

dreadlocks?

16

Do you remember long dreadlocks or shorter

I don't think they were long.

Maybe at

the end of the neck or a little below that.

18

19

like his hair?

I think he had maybe like dreadlocks or

14

17

And what about the smaller kid, do

you remember anything about him,

12
13

that.

10
11

Do you remember anything about what the

Okay.

Could you hear if they were

speaking to each other?

20

No.

21

And what did you witness next?

22

Uh, next I notice the police car saying

23

something to them because he had kind of cut in

24

front of them,

25

them.

kind of angled his car in front of

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 89

So you recognize that car as a police car?

Yes.

Do you remember what kind of car?

I don't

mean like brand or the model, was it a sedan, was it

a truck, was it a SUV, was it a van?

or something, a cruiser car or something.

And so you said that the

Yes, he was saying something to them and

then he angled his car kind of in front of them.

12
13

All right.

officer's car, looked like it cut them off?

10
11

I probably say it was something like a SUV

Which direction was the car, was the

police officer's car on Canfield then?

14

Yes.

15

And which direction was the police

16

officer's car facing?

17
18

West,

I would say just like he came from

West Florissant area too.

19

Just to clarify, this is east and that's

21

Okay.

22

And this is West Florissant over here.

23

West Florissant over there.

24

Yeah, West Florissant is over here.

20

25

west.

So

does that change what you think about, you still

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 90

recognize that as where you live?

That is where I

Okay.

live, yes.

Do you know if the officer's car

was actually moving and driving, would it be going

toward West Florissant?

No.

Or toward Northwinds?

Northwinds.

So did you see the officer's car moving?

10

Well,

I saw the officer pull up next to

11

them and he was saying something to them,

12

know what.

13

angle in front of them.

14

I don't

And then I saw him just kind of cut

Okay.

And so is it you don't know what

15

because you couldn't hear anything from that

16

distance?

17

No,

18

Why is it that you said that he said

19
20

I didn't hear anything.

something to them, what makes you think that?


A

Well,

I saw him,

I mean,

I heard,

I didn't

21

hear what he was saying, but I saw him talking to

22

the boys, you know.

23
24
25

Okay.

What he said, I don't know.

So both boys were at the officer's

car at that point?


A

Yeah, they were both together walking.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 91

Okay.

And so then you said you saw the

officer then angled his car and kind of cut them

off?

Yes.

And what did you see happen then?

I kept on going toward the dumpster and

then I heard,

kind of looked over my shoulder and looked back.

didn't see anything,

10
11
12

I guess it turned out to be a shot.

I
I

so I kept going around to the

dumpster head around the corner.


Q

Okay.

So after the officer angled his car

and kind of cut the boys off.

13

Yes.

14

You then continued to the dumpster?

15

Yes, uh-huh.

16

Does that mean you went around to the back

17

of the building?

18

Right.

19

After you continued to the dumpster then,

20

was the building in between you and the car and the

21

boys to where you couldn't see them?

22

I couldn't see them, huh-uh.

23

And now you said you heard a gunshot?

24

Before I turned the corner, yes.

25

And so before you turned the corner, you

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by Randy Dunn

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 92

heard a gunshot, how many gunshots?

I'm sorry,

All right.

I thought it was only one.


And have you heard gunshots

before?

Oh, yeah.

Did you recognize that as a gunshot or did

you think maybe it was firecrackers?

I just assumed it was a gunshot.

Okay.

10

Uh-huh.

11

And so when you said you looked back at

12

that point.

13

Uh-huh.

14

And you didn't see anything?

15

I didn't see anything, so I kept going.

16

And so you kept walking toward the

17

dumpster?

18

Kept walking toward the dumpster.

19

And then what happened?

20

And then after I turned the corner of the

21

building going to the dumpster,

I heard a series of

22

gunshots.

23

cars because I didn't know what was going on, if it

24

was a battle out there or not, and I ducked between

25

the cars.

And then I ran and I ducked between some

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by Randy Dunn

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 93

1
2

gunshots, when you said it was a series of gunshots?

4
5

Can you give me an idea of how many

five,

I can't say.

I knew it was more than

I would say I knew it was more than that.


Q

Okay.

Were these gunshots in a quick

succession like one after another or were there

pauses between them?

Seemed like one after another.

From the time of the first gunshot until

10

the succession of gunshots, can you give me an idea

11

of how much time past?

12

No, not really because I kept walking and

13

I turned the corner of the building going to the

14

dumpster, so it wasn't that long.

15
16

So from the time it would take you to walk

and turn the corner toward the dumpster?

17

Uh-huh.

18

And so you said after you heard the series

19

of gunshots, you ducked behind some parked cars?

20

Yes,

I did.

21

And did you see anything else after that?

22

People coming out of their building.

23

After that, hearing the gunshots, a lot of people

24

started coming out of the buildings.

25

back there for a few minutes because I didn't go in

And I stayed

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 94

the front, but people was coming on the front.

2
3

Okay.

So now you know the boy that got

shot, Michael Brown, you know his name now?

know his name, but I

before that.

Okay.

No.

All right.

9
10

did not know him

Did you see him get shot?

So what about the officer,

when he was inside his police car, could you see


him?

11

No,

12

Did you ever see that officer get out of

13
14

his car?
A

See,

15

toward that.

16

17

couldn't.

Okay.

wasn't looking then.

My back was

Did you ever see the officer at the

scene later where you said oh, that's the guy?

18

No,

19

Do you think if you saw him today you

20
21
22
23
24
25

couldn't.

would recognize him?


A

No, even seeing him on television I

still

wouldn't recognize him.


Q

From your vantage point he was always

inside the vehicle?


A

Yes.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 95

When you were, when you looked and you saw

the boys at the vehicle after the police car cut

them off.

Uh-huh.

What side of the police vehicle were they

on?

The driver's side or the other side?


A

Well, they were on the street curb and the

car came at an angle,

side, yeah.

10

I guess they was on the other

So not the driver's side, but the other

12

The other side, right.

13

Okay.

11

14

side?

And that's because you think the

officer's car was headed towards Northwinds?

15

Yes.

16

If the officer's car was headed toward

17

West Florissant, what side would they have been?

18
19
20

They would have been on the driver's side

Okay.

then.
When you turn and you saw the boys

21

at the car, were they near the front,

22

bumper or near like a window?

near the back

23

Near the door I would think.

24

And when you turn and look and saw the

25

boys at the car, was the car, was the police car in

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed b

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 96

between you and the boys?

Oh,

So could you see if the boys were standing

yes.

at the car, could you see the boys' hands and what

they were doing?

No, the car was blocking it.

Okay.

Could you see the bigger boy, was

his head taller than the police car, could you tell

he was standing there?

10

You know,

I don't know because I didn't

11

focus in on that, you know.

I know people are

12

stopped all the time, so I'm not focusing in on

13

that.

14

had food on the stove.

I'm trying to get to the trash dumpster,

15

So did you ever make it to the dumpster?

16

Yeah, eventually after I stayed back there

17

for a while and everybody started coming out of

18

their apartments, then I went to the trash dumpster

19

and then I came back around to the front of my

20

building, already they had put the yellow tape up

21

and wasn't letting anybody by.

22

live here in this building, I just went to the trash

23

dumpster,

24

me beyond the yellow tape.

25

I told the officer I

I have food on my stove cooking and he let

Okay.

So after you came out from where

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 97

you were crouching or hiding?

Uh-huh.

You went and put your trash in the

dumpster and then came, walked toward Canfield Drive

at that point?

Yeah, back around to my building, yes.

You could see the yellow tape was up?

The yellow tape was already up.

And then did you go into your building

10

after the officer let you past the yellow tape?

11

Yes.

12

And then did you ever come out of your

13

building again?

14

Oh, yes.

15

was congregating.

16

everything.

17

out on my porch.

18

19

I came back out because people


I heard all the noise outside and

I checked my food and then I came back

So you came outside, but you didn't come

down to the ground?

20

Oh, no,

I didn't come back down.

21

So when you came out, well, let me ask you

22

this.

When you came back around to get back in your

23

building, did you go in the front way?

24

There's only one way in.

25

Could you see Michael Brown's body in the

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 98

street?

Yes,

Did you recognize him as the same boy?

See, they had a cover on him.

Okay.

I did.

So by the time you saw him the body

was covered up?

Covered up, uh-huh.

And then later that day police officers

9
10
11

knocked on your door and asked you if you saw


something; is that right?
A

Uh, was it that day?

12

that day.

13

next, a detective came up there.

I think it was later

I'm not sure if it was that day or the

14

A detective?

15

Yes.

16

And you talked to him for a couple

17

minutes?

18

Yes.

19

And then about a week later some FBI

20

people?

21

Yes.

22

Knocked on your door?

23

Yes.

24

And you talked to them for a few minutes?

25

I talked to them.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 99

Okay, all right.

Ma'am, how is your

vision, how is your eyesight?

My eyesight is not bad.

Okay.

And you and I

talk a little bit

before you came in here?

Uh-huh.

You had told me that sometime after this

incident you had cataract surgery?

That's correct.

10

Prior to having the cataract surgery, was

11

12
13
14
15

your vision impaired by the cataracts?


A

My vision is about the same after I

got

the cataracts off, uh-huh.


Q

So you didn't think you had a problem with

your vision?

16

No.

17

Did you even know you had cataracts?

18

No, not until the doctor told me they was

19
20
21

growing.
Q

Okay.

So what about your hearing, ma'am,

how is your hearing?

22

I have pretty good hearing.

23

Okay.

24
25

And what about,

so you don't need

anything to aid you with hearing?


A

No,

I don't.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 100

my age,

I would say my memory is pretty good.

Okay.

Is there anything about what you

saw that day,

important for us to know?

anything else that you think is

I've told you all I've seen,

that day,

11

what I saw that day.

you know.

12

And I just got through saying

I didn't see the whole incident,

13

I told the detective and the FBI.

14

you is the little bit that I did see.

16

you know.

Nothing else I can tell you other than what I saw

10

15

My memory is pretty good for a person of

I asked you,

told you I was going to ask you about your memory?

And how about your memory,

Okay.

like

All I can tell

And I told you how important it is

that everybody who saw something --

17

Yes.

18

-- comes in and tells what they saw.

19

Right.

20

All right.

21

Uh-huh.

22

Have you participated in any like protest

23

And since this has happened.

or vigils?

24

Oh, no.

25

Do you know Michael Brown's family?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 101

Other than seeing them downstairs when the

incident happened and seeing them on television, no,

I don't know them.

know any Ferguson police officers?

Okay.

(By Ms. Whirley) Witness 38, hi, how long

have you lived in the apartments?

11

I have lived there

12

Okay.

13

I don't have any

others request.

10

I don't know any Ferguson police officers.


MS. ALIZADEH:

How about Ferguson police officers, do you

those

years.

I bet you've seen a lot change over

years?

14

I've seen a lot change, yeah.

15

What's the relationship with the police

16
17
18

then and the residence in that area?


A

I haven't had any incidents with them, so

I can't say.

19

Okay.

20

You know.

21

You don't know of any particular incidents

22

that have occurred there with the police?

23

No.

24

Okay.

25

When the officer,

I'm going back to

the incident, when the officer was inside the police

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 102

car,

I think you said you were going toward the back

to empty the trash?

Yes.

You heard a series of shots,

you thought

about five shots?

Five or more.

Five or more?

Uh-huh.

You mayor may not be able to answer it.

10

What I'm trying to find out is was the officer

11

inside the car when you heard the shot or you don't

12

know?

13

See,

I had turned the corner when I heard

14

the shots, and then I ran and duck behind some cars.

15

So I couldn't tell you whether he was outside of the

16

car or inside, because I couldn't see.

17

the corner.

18

Okay.

19

Yes.

20

Okay.

21

No,

22

And you never saw Michael Brown after he

23

I was around

The first shot he was in the car?

The others you don't know?

I don't know.

was in the street talking to the officer?

24

No.

25

Was he in the middle of the street?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 103

No, they was along the curb side.

When you saw him walking before the police

made contact, he was not in the middle of the

street?

5
6

on the curb side.


MS. WHIRLEY:

Not in the middle of the street, they was

All right.

I think that's

all I have.

Do you recall

10

when the officer's vehicle,

11

was next to the two individuals, do you recall if he

12

had his lights or sirens on?

13

No, he didn't have sirens on.

14

Any lights that you saw?

15
16

Darren Wilson's vehicle

top?

It was daytime,
No, no,

you mean the lights on

no.

17

Thank you.

18

MS. WHIRLEY:

19

MS. ALIZADEH:

Anybody else?
Anyone else?

20

At

21

that time when you first saw the police officer and

22

his car whatever, did you see any other vehicles

23

stopped behind the police officer's car?

24
25

No,

I didn't see any other vehicles.


You saw no other vehicles?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 104

No.

Did you notice any other

vehicles coming the opposite direction, like they're

coming off the West Florissant direction if they was

stopped there?

No,

I didn't.

Because I didn't really

focus in on that, you know, this is just an everyday

Saturday thing where I'm taking my trash down.

didn't see any,

I just didn't focus in on that.

10
11

12
13
14
15

Okay.
A

So I

Thank you.

Uh-huh.
MS. ALIZADEH:

Anyone else?

All right.

This will conclude the testimony of this witness.


(End of the testimony of Witness 38.)
MS. WHIRLEY:

It is October the 20th, 2014

16

it is approximately 1:22 p.m.

17

evidence in the Michael Brown shooting.

18

Whirley, the 12 grand jurors are present and also

19

the court reporter.

We are resuming our


I'm Sheila

Kathi Alizadeh is out of

20

the room right now, she will join us probably

21

momentarily.

22
23
24
25

We're going to start this afternoon with


two statements, as much as we can get through, of
He testified here this morning.
And as he testified, he spoke to a chief

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 105

investigator from our office, his name is

2
3

, I think he pronounces it
the G is silent.

on the phone.

He actually talked with


That's Grand Jury Exhibit

Number 17.

And then we have another statement from

, which Grand Jury Exhibit Number 49,

where he spoke with the FBI.

With that bit of

introduction we can stop the recording and we'll go

10

ahead and play the phone call.

The phone call is

11

like 16 minutes or so, and I think that his

12

statement is less than an hour, so we'll see how

13

much we can get through.

14

(Grand Jury Exhibit Number 49

15

marked for identification.)

16

MS. WHIRLEY:

All right.

17

the record.

18

39:13, 39 minutes, 30 seconds.

19

up there when we meet again.

20

We are going to top this recording at


And then we'll start

It is approximately 2:29 p.m.

21

end.

22

all 12 jurors and

23

will conclude our day, thank you.

24

We're back on

This is the

I'm Sheila Whirley, here with Kathi Alizadeh,


the court reporter.

That

(End of Grand Jury Volume 14.)

25

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 106

State of Missouri

4
5

SS.

County of St. Louis


I,

, a Licensed Certified Court

Reporter by the Supreme Court in and for the State

of Missouri, duly commissioned, qualified and

authorized to administer oaths and to certify to

depositions, do hereby certify that pursuant to

10

Notice in the civil cause now pending and

11

undetermined in the County of St. Louis, State of

12

Missouri.

13

The said witness, being of sound mind and being

14

by the grand jury first carefully examined and duly

15

cautioned and sworn to testify to the truth, the

16

whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the case

17

aforesaid, thereupon testified as is shown in the

18

foregoing transcript, said testimony being by me

19

reported in shorthand and caused to be transcribed

20

into typewriting, and that the foregoing page

21

correctly sets forth the testimony of the

22

aforementioned witness, together with the questions

23

propounded by counsel and grand jurors thereto, and

24

is in all respects a full,

25

complete transcript of the questions propounded to

true,

correct and

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 107

1
2

and the answers given by said witness.


I further certify that the foregoing pages

contain a true and accurate reproduction of the

proceedings.

I further certify that I am not of counselor

attorney for either of the parties to said suit, not

related to nor interested in any of the parties or

their attorneys.

10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 108

COURT MEMO

2
3
4

State of Missouri vs. Darren Wilson

6
7

CERTIFICATE OF OFFICER AND

STATEMENT OF DEPOSITION CHARGES

10
11

DEPOSITION OF Grand Jury, Volume XIV

12
13

10/20/2014

14

Name and address of person or firm having custody of

15

the original transcript:

16
17

St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney's Office

18

100 S. Central Ave.

19

Clayton, MO 63105

20
21
22
23
24
25

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 109

ORIGINAL TRANSCRIPT TAXED IN FAVOR OF:

2
3

St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney's Office

100 S. Central Ave.

Clayton, MO 63105

Total:

8
9

10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18

19
20
21
22
23
24
25

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XIV


October 20, 2014
Page 110

Upon delivery of transcripts, the above

charges had not been paid.

that all charges will be paid in the normal course

of business.

GORE PERRY GATEWAY & LIPA REPORTING COMPANY

515 Olive street, Suite 700

st. Louis, Missouri 63101

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set

STATEMENT OF DEPOSITION CHARGES

10

my hand and seal on this

11

Commission expires

It is anticipated

day of

12

13

Notary Public

14

15
16
17
18
19
20
21

22
23
24

25

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


FAX 314-241-6750
314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com
Electronically signed by

61c56709-9c35-4a02-b4ab-7fff7b3006be

Case: State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Transcript of: Grand Jury, Volume XV


Date: October 23, 2014

This transcript is printed on 100% recycled paper

515 Olive Street, Suite 300


St. Louis, MO 63101
(314) 241-6750
1-800-878-6750
Fax: (314) 241-5070
Email: schedule@goreperry.com
Internet: < <www.goreperry.com >>

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XV

October 23,2014

Page 1

STATE OF MISSOURI

VS.

DARREN WILSON

GRAND JURY

October 23, 2014

VOLUME XV

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XV

October 23,2014
Page 2

IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF ST. LOUIS COUNTY

STATE OF MISSOURI

STATE OF MISSOURI

5
6

vs.

DARREN WILSON

10
11

12

The following is a hearing before the Grand

13

Jury of St. Louis County, at the offices of St.

14

Louis County Prosecuting Attorney's Office, 100

15

South Central Avenue,

16

of Missouri, on the 23th day of October, 2014,

17

before

in the City of Clayton, State

18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XV

October 23,2014

Page 3
1

APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:

2
3

FOR THE STATE:

Ms. Kathi Alizadeh & Ms. Sheila Whirley

Assistant Prosecuting Attorneys for St. Louis

County

100 South Central Avenue, 2nd Floor

Clayton, MO 63105

(314)

615-2600

10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XV

October 23,2014

Page 5
GRAND JURY HEARING VOLUME XV

MS. ALIZADEH:

Good morning.

(Everyone says good morning.)

MS. ALIZADEH:

It is Thursday,

October 23rd at 9:06 a.m.

Sheila Whirley is also present, all 12 grand jurors

are present as well as

and we need to take up a few matters before we begin

with witnesses today.

10

This is Kathi Alizadeh,

, the court reporter,

Urn, I would imagine all of you, I mean,

11

most of you, if not all of you, have been aware that

12

there have been media reports out there that seem to

13

indicate that there are leaks in the investigation

14

and that reports have been leaked and testimony has

15

been leaked and so forth.

16

And first off, as I've said from the very

17

beginning, you all have to be guided by what occurs

18

in this room.

19

doesn't get things right, but you know, if you do

20

read those things, you need to make sure you take

21

that with a grain of salt.

22

the evidence together, so you know what you have

23

heard and seen.

24
25

We all know sometimes the media

You all have heard all

But I do want to say, and Sheila and I


have had a conference, we've had a conference with

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XV

October 23,2014

Page 6
1

Mr. McCulloch, we've had conferences with a lot of

others, with the County Police Department and

everything, and I can assure you that we know that

the leak, that the leaks are not coming from the

grand jury.

none of you are the source of that.

There is no doubt in our minds that

And to tell you the truth, one of the

reasons that I know that is the medical examiner's

report is out there and I've looked at what's out

10

there, what was leaked by the Post-Dispatch, it was

11

put out there by the Post-Dispatch and I can tell

12

you it is not the copy that you have.

13

medical examiner's report, but every medical

14

examiner's report that we get has a stamp on it.

15

says not for secondary release.

It is the

It

16

And the report that is out there that was

17

published by the Post-Dispatch does have that stamp

18

on there, but it is not the same stamp that I have,

19

and I know it is not the same stamp that is on your

20

copy.

21

So it says the same thing, but their's is

22

in a straight line and it is different looking than

23

our stamp, the stamp that we have on our copies.

24
25

And the same thing with the County Police,


it is different than the stamp that they have from

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XV

October 23,2014

Page 7
1

their copies.

So wherever this came from, it did not

come from our office, it did not come from you guys.

You don't have a copy that looks like that, it did

not come from the County Police.

And the other reason why we're fairly, not

fairly, we're 100 percent confident that this is not

coming from the grand jurors or from the County

Police is that in the very beginning when there was

10

a supposed leak, this was a story that was broken by

11

the New York Times, but it was their Washington

12

Bureau that published the story and they cited their

13

source as a government official who had been briefed

14

on the civil rights investigation.

15

We are sharing our information with the

16

federal government because they are conducting their

17

own independent investigation and so they have all

18

the same reports and the same things that we have.

19

And so we are confident that the leak is

20

someone in probably the Department of Justice and is

21

not coming from St. Louis County Police, not from

22

our office, and not from this grand jury.

23

I know you all maybe were concerned about

24

that, but we are 100 percent confident that we're

25

all good.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com