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State of Missouri v.

Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XI


October 7, 2014
Page 79

there who are saying that they saw it, but in fact,

didn't see it?

No, I don't.

Okay.

MS. ALIZADEH:

MS. WHIRLEY:

Questions?

(Lunch recess)

MS. ALIZADEH:

I'm done.

All right.

It is October 7th, it is 1:46 p.m.

Good afternoon.
I'm Kathi

10

Alizadeh, present also is Sheila Whirley with the

11

prosecutor's office, all 12 grand jurors are also

12

present, as wells as the court reporter who is

13

taking down what's transpiring in the room and also

14

he is doing an audio recording to record what's

15

being said.

16

And so the first witness we're going to

17

have for this afternoon is

18

is a chemist with the s St. Louis County Police

19

Department Crime Laboratory.

20

please?

21
22
23

Do you go by

And he

Could you stand up,

, you're not a

detective or police officer, correct?


THE WITNESS:

No,

is fine.

24
25

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Page 80

1
2

of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to

testify the truth, the whole truth, and

nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid,

deposes and says in reply to oral

interrogatories, propounded as follows,

7
8
9

10

11

to-wit:

EXAMINATION
BY MS. ALIZADEH:
Q

Could you state your name and spell it for

the court reporter, please?

12
13

Can I call you

14

Sure.

15

And,

16

The St. Louis County Police Crime Lab.

17

What do you do for the crime lab?

18

I'm a drug chemist.

19

And so what is your educational background

, where do you work?

20

that qualifies you to be a drug chemist with the

21

crime laboratory?

22

I have a bachelor of science degree in bio

23

medical sciences from formerly known as Southwest

24

Missouri State University.

25

And when did you receive that?

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Grand Jury Volume XI


October 7, 2014
Page 81

In May of 1999.

All right.

And then did you have any

other postgraduate work?

No.

And so after you graduated from Missouri

State, is it Missouri State?

It is now Missouri State University.

Okay.

Correct.

10

And then after you graduated, did you have

That's in Springfield?

11

any employment other than working for the St. Louis

12

County Crime Laboratory?

13

Yes,

14

Where did you work?

15

Missouri Statement Highway Patrol Crime

And so were you a chemist with the

16
17
18

I did.

Lab.

Missouri State Highway Patrol Crime Lab?

19

Yes, our official title is criminalist.

20

Did you do work that was in your field of

21

chemistry?

22

Yes,

23

And did you, how long were you with the

24
25

I did.

Highway Patrol Crime Lab?


A

Thirteen years.

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Grand Jury Volume XI


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Page 82

And after that, where were you employed?

Then I started with the St. Louis County

3
4

Police Crime Lab.


Q

How many years have you been with the St.

Louis County Crime Lab?

One and a half years.

And so do you work as a chemist or a

criminalist, but you do work in chemistry and

analysis and chemical compounds for the crime

10

laboratory?

11

Correct.

12

Are you a certified or post-certified

13

police officer?

14

No.

15

Have you ever been a police officer?

16

No.

17

Do you have any training as a police

18

officer?

19

No.

20

Do you have any certifications or any

21

other, are there any other requirements that you

22

received or passed in order to work in the chemistry

23

county crime lab?

24
25

The county and the Missouri State Highway

Patrol Crime Lab as well are accredited, so I work

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Page 83

1
2

under an accreditation.
Q

All right.

And so what, without sounding

too obvious or moronic I would say, could you

describe what chemistry is, the field of forensic

chemistry?

Forensic chemistry is in the drug

chemistry, we generally it's powders, liquids,

residues, plant material, pharmaceuticals, that we

analyze and determine if they have controlled

10
11

substances in them or not.


Q

What about other types of things like, for

12

example, poisons, would you analyze a liquid to

13

determine if it had any kind of poisonous material?

14

Not me, no.

15

So if say there was a substance that might

16

be seized in a criminal investigation and it was

17

suspicious that it was arsonic, is that something

18

that you would examine and test?

19

Not me.

20

Okay.

So your field is strictly regarding

21

the examination and testing of substances to

22

determine whether or not they have contained

23

controlled substances?

24

Correct.

25

And controlled substances are drugs?

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Grand Jury Volume XI


October 7, 2014
Page 84

Yes, ma'am.

Okay.

And then everything from

prescription drugs to marijuana, to street drugs; is

that right?

Yes.

And so did you receive an evidence item in

order for you to examine in relation to a St. Louis

County investigation that is hopefully, or will be

documented under Report Number 2014-43984?

10

Yes.

11

What was it that you received to analyze.

12

I received a bag that actually I believe

13

was in a plastic container and then a plastic bag

14

containing a plant material substance.

15

Okay.

In general now, let's talk about

16

how you get evidence items.

17

come to you?

18

How is it that they

They are submitted, in this case since

19

this is, this is submitted as a county, St. Louis

20

County case.

21

division and then property control brings it up to

22

the crime lab.

So it goes through property control

23

So it gets entered into the computer,

24

the evidence is then placed into a vault and then --

25

A vault in the crime lab?

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Grand Jury Volume XI


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Page 85

Yeah.

Okay.

And actually, that's normal procedure.

This one,

co-workers.

and I asked him, oh, what do you got there?

goes, well, this is a case that needs to be worked,

a rush case, do you want to do it?

supervisor, I

10

I remember that it went through one of my


He was getting ready to work the case

said, that's fine,

And he asked the


can rush this

case.
And he said, let me call the

11

12

supervisor and the supervisor said yeah,

13

wants to do the case, that's fine,

14

And he

if

so I did it.

Now, when you began as a chemist or

15

forensic chemist with the County Crime Laboratory,

16

was there like an on-the-job training period or

17

probationary period?

18

Yes.

19

And how long did that last?

20

Normally it would last six months and

21

probation is one year, but since I had training

22

through the Highway Patrol, it really was about two

23

months here.

24

25

Okay.

And so you were as qualified to

examine this evidence item as any other forensic

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Grand Jury Volume XI


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Page 86

chemist in the lab; is that fair to say?

Yes.

It wasn't like this was your first time

doing this?

No, not at all.

Okay.

And so when this came in though, it

was described or it was explained to you that this

was something that they needed to have tested ASAP?

Yes.

10

When you said it was rush, did you mean

11
12
13
14

rush the test or just that it needed?


A

We call them rush cases if it needs to be

worked quickly.
Q

Okay.

But did you rush the test, in other

15

words, did you go through the testing process faster

16

than normal?

17

No,

18

Okay.

19

I have my own pace.


So you have a wait for testing

substances, isn't that fair to say?

20

Yes.

21

It can be in the normal scheme of things

22

it could be several weeks or even months before an

23

evidence item that a police department brings in?

24
25

Yes.

We have a backlog so, by meaning

rush, we were putting this case ahead of other cases

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Grand Jury Volume XI


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Page 87

that are waiting.

Okay.

All right.

Did you have, when you

examined or brought out the evidence that was

submitted to you, did it have an evidence sheet with

the evidence?

Yes, it did.

Okay.

So when you, do you have a copy of

that with you?

Yes,

10

The evidence receipt, we have heard a

11

I do.

little testimony from Detective

12

and Detective

, who are crime scene investigators, about how

13

they fill out an evidence receipt or an evidence

14

sheet when they seize something.

15

described the chain of custody that must be

16

completed on the bottom of the sheet.

17

And they've

So looking at the copy of the

18

evidence receipt that you had with this evidence

19

item, can you tell from there where this was seized

20

from?

21
22
23
24
25

Oh, it says that, well, it says who the

officer is and the department, St. Louis County PD.


Q

Okay.

The officer who seized the

evidence, does it give his name?


A

Yes, it does.

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Grand Jury Volume XI


October 7, 2014
Page 88

And who was he?

Darren Wilson.

So Darren Wilson, actually, let me direct

you, Darren Wilson is originally listed as the

victim in this case, correct?

Yes.

And then there is a Detective

is actually

Oh, okay,

10

There is a bit of confusion with the two

11

who

a different person?
I learned something new.

12

Okay.

13

It says here location, seized and found.

14

What is the location of where it was seized or

15

found?

16

St. Louis County Morgue.

17

And it gives the address 6059 North

18

Hanley, where presumably that's where the morgue is?

19

I assume that's what it list.

20

What was the date that it was seized?

21

On August 10th, 2014.

22

Who was the seizing officer?

23

Detective

24

Do you know

25

No.

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Grand Jury Volume XI


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Page 89

Don't know him?

No.

So the remarks on the evidence receipt

says that the evidence was sent to Property Control?

Yes.

And that's kind of the procedure that you

described,

isn't it?

Yes.

When a county officer seizes something and

10

packages it, it first goes to Property Control,

11

correct?

12

Correct.

13

And then there will be signatures on the

14

chain of custody that show really whose hands this

15

item passes through,

correct?

16

Correct.

17

Do you know Officer

18

Yes.

19

Is he an officer in Property Control?

20

Yes, he is.

21

Okay.

So his receipt that accompanied the

22

evidence shows that at some point it was dropped off

23

to the St. Louis County Crime Laboratory in their

24

vault, correct?

25

It doesn't look that it ever hit the

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State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XI


October 7, 2014
Page 90

vault, it looks like it went from Detective

another person that works in property control and

then it went to another drug analysis it and that's

when I took it from the drug analyst.

From Detective

to

in Property Control,

it then went to another officer in Property Control

and from there it went to another analyst, drug

analyst?

Yes.

10

Who is that?

11

12

13

Is

the person you said, hey,

what are you working on?

14

Yes.

15

So from him signing it the evidence

16

receipt, then it came to be in your possession,

17

correct?

18

Yes.

19

When it came to be in your possession or

20

any time you get an evidence item submitted, do you

21

examine the packaging to determine if there is any

22

evidence that has been tampered with?

23

Yes, if it looks like it has been

24

tampered, make note of it and make some

25

documentation.

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Grand Jury Volume XI


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Page 91

So in this case had you suspected or had

you noticed on the packaging that there, for

example, that the evidence tape appeared to have

been cut open or that there was something odd about

the way the evidence was packaged that we might

suspect that it was tampered with, would you have

noted that in your report?

I wouldn't note as if, like if there's a

piece of evidence from the officer and then maybe

10

they had to go back in and reopen somewhere else,

11

no,

I don't note that.

12

If there was an opening to where it

13

looks like the evidence could get out of the

14

container somehow, or to where somebody could put

15

something in, yes, that would definitely be noted.

16

Okay.

And did you note anything of that

17

nature in this case?

Was there anything that

18

appeared to you that the actual evidence would have

19

been tampered with?

20

No, no note of that.

21

All right.

And so after you received

22

this, let me ask you this, what day did you receive

23

this evidence item?

24

Urn, on August 11th of 2014.

25

And so after you received it and you said

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Grand Jury Volume XI


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Page 92

it was in a plastic container, a baggy in a plastic

container,

or you said that out there when we were talking?

I can't remember if you said that in here

In here.

So in my report it says one

knotted clear plastic bag containing green

vegetation.

Ql, full description above all contained inside

sealed plastic container.

10

I have a note here that says, specimen

Okay.

And that's how it appeared to you

when you first got it; is that right?

11

There would also be the outer container as

12

well, which would be the manila envelope that it was

13

in.

14
15

Once you open the envelope, that's what

you saw a sealed plastic container?

16

Yes.

17

Is the sealed plastic container the kind

18

of container that crime scene detectives use to put

19

things in when they are packaging them?

20

It is what it appeared to me.

21

Okay.

22

And then did you test the substance

that was in that baggy?

23

Yes,

24

And did you make a report regarding your

25

I did.

findings?

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Grand Jury Volume XI


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Page 93

Yes,

I did.

(Deposition Exhibit Number 37


marked for identification.)

3
4

(By Ms. Alizadeh)

I'm going to hand you

what I've marked as Grand Jury Exhibit Number 37.

Is that a copy of report that you made in this case?

Yes,

Okay.

it is.
I'm going to pass around copies of

Grand Jury Exhibit 37.

So,

10

, you list a description on

11

your report,

is that what you mentioned earlier, one

12

knotted clear plastic baggy containing green

13

vegetation?

14

Yes.

15

Now, having been a chemist for over 11

16

years at this point, did that substance appear to be

17

familiar to you?

18

Yes.

19

What did it look like?

20

It looked like marijuana.

21

Was there anything odd about it that you

22

thought this was not your typical marijuana?

23

No.

24

All right.

25

And so what's the first thing

you do after you receive this knotted plastic baggy,

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Page 94

what do you do next?

I weigh the substance.

Do you weigh it in the baggy or remove it

from the baggy?

I remove it from the baggy.

And so when you weigh it, you weigh it on

a digital scale?

Yes.

And are those scales calibrated on a

10
11
12

regular basis to insure their accuracy?


A

They're calibrate once a year, they're

checked weekly.

13

Okay.

14

They're checked with certified weights.

15

So when you weighed the substance that was

16

in the baggy, could you remove all the substance in

17

the baggy, every little leaf and every little --

18

As much as I can get out of the bag.

19

And according to your report,

20

you had a

weight of 1.589 grams?

21

Correct.

22

Can you describe for me maybe using some

23

kind of familiar object, is this smaller than a

24

baseball?

25

Yes, a little bit smaller than a baseball.

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Page 95

1
2

Not much, though.


Q

After you weigh the amount of the

marijuana and I see down here in your remarks there

is a remark that you include about uncertainty of

measurement.

the bottom?

uncertainty of measurement due to balance utilized,

what does that mean?

Do you all see that in the, close to


What does that mean, the established

We take into consideration any kind of

10

factor that could make the weight slightly different

11

than the 1.589.

12

such as the readability of the scale, the linearity

13

of the scale, the stability of the scale, the

14

sensitivity.

15

We take into consideration things

And so what we do is over a course of

16

time we will analyze, we will take our weights that

17

we normally have with our certified weights.

18

will record, for example, you have a 1 gram weight

19

and our scale reads out to 1.000.

20

point 1.001, and during your checking we write down

21

1.001, then that is documented.

22

And we

If you get a one

Anything that's different than what

23

the actual weight is, that's considered, there is a

24

standard deviation involved.

25

then you find that we come up with this 1.008 for

Calculating that and

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Page 96

this balance is the most that that scale would ever

be off.

So basically what we are saying here

with this K factor of three, we're saying that 997

times out of 1,000, this weight here of 1.589 will

be right at 1.589 997 times out of a thousand.

Three of those times it might be

1.589?

And it could be .0008?

10

Correct.

11

And that's important especially in cases

12

with marijuana and other drugs when there might be a

13

criminal legal implication depending on the weight

14

of the substance?

15
16

I would like to go back about that weight,

just to make sure that we're clear on that.

17
18

It's possible that those three out of


the thousand times could be outside the .008.

19

Okay.

20

I think I did missay that.

Basically

21

statistics are involved, and we're 95 percent

22

confident that 99.7 percent of this will be within

23

the .008 of that weight.

24
25

Okay.

And in this case, I mean, you know,

maybe you don't know, I'll tell you the

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Page 97

circumstances of how much this substance weighed is

really not important or crucial, this isn't a

scenario where we need to have over 35 grams to

charge a certain level of offense.

So let me also ask you, when you

removed the green vegetation from the baggy, did it

appear that it was dry?

Yes.

It wasn't wet or moist or sticky?

10

Not that I recall.

11

And so then after you've waited, what do

12
13

you do next?
A

Then I perform a microscopic examination

14

in that we look for characteristic hairs.

15

for cystolith and silicotic hairs.

I look

16

Say that again, you look for what?

17

Cystolith.

18

Can you spell that for the court reporter?

19

C-Y-S-T-O-L-I-T-H, and silicotic hairs,

20
21
22
23

believe that's S-I-L-I-C-O-T-I-C.


Q

Okay.

What are these things that you are

talking about?
A

So cystolith hair, it looks like a bear

24

claw shape, tiny bear claw shape hair.

25

characteristics to marijuana plants.

It is

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Page 98

1
2

Okay.

And the other thing that you are

looking for, what is that?

Silicotic, they are more slender like

hair.

You may find that more on other substances,

but knowing that's also on a marijuana plant.

not as confirming as a cystolith hair.

It is

So you are saying hair?

Hair.

But it is not like animal hair or human

11

It is a plant hair, it is a cell.

12

Okay?

13

A cell, it comes out of the surface of the

14

plant.

10

15

hair?

It is plant cellular material.


So this thing that you are looking at in a

16

microscope is, in fact, marijuana, you would expect

17

to see those things?

18

Yes.

19

Did you see them in this case?

20

Yes,

21

Do you do any further testing?

22

I do a modified Duquenois-Levine test.

23

Can you spell that for the court reporter?

24

Modified?

25

Well, he can spell modified, what's the

I did.

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Page 99

other word?

I'm sorry.

Duquenois, D-U-Q-U-O-N-I-S -- E-N-O-I-S,


Levine, L-E-V-I-N-E.

What is that test?

That's a chemical color test.

That test

for cannabinoids and it will turn purple with the

presence of marijuana.

And did it turn purple when,

is it like a

reagent that you apply to the plant material?

10

Yes, and it did turn purple.

11

Is that a presumptive test?

12

Yes.

13

And do you do any confirmative testing

14
15
16
17

after you've done that test?


A

No, it confirms marijuana when you use the

two test together.


Q

Okay.

So the microscopic examination

18

which you saw the two hairs that you suspect

19

marijuana and then the color test being positive,

20

you conclude that this is marijuana; is that

21

correct?

22

Yes.

23

Now,

24

Tetrahydrocannabinol.

25

Is that the active ingredient in marijuana

, what is THe.

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that makes people, that it alters their,

know, whatever it does to you?

I don't

Euphoria.

Euphoria?

Yes, psychoactive.

Okay, that's a good word, psychoactive.

So do you test when you have like what you suspect

to be marijuana, do you ever test it to determine

how much THC is in this marijuana that you are

10

looking at?

11

No,

12

All right.

I do not.
Do different samples, to your

13

knowledge, different samples or different types of

14

marijuana have different levels of THC?

15
16
17

I would expect.

I've never done one on

marijuana.
Q

You hear people talking about, oh,

18

marijuana now is so much more stronger than it was

19

back when we were teenagers or whatever.

20

know because I'm not an expert on that, so you

21

believe that it is possible that different marijuana

22

has different THC levels?

I don't

23

I believe it is.

24

Are you familiar with a process that's

25

done called waxing?

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1
2

Yes, waxing is the same as butane hunting

oil.

Do you want me to describe that?

Yes.

Okay.

5
6

So what happens in this scenario is

someone takes the plant material and they will -Q

So when you say plant material, it is

marijuana?
A

10

clippings?

11

No.

12

I guess you could.

13

You could, but you probably won't get THC.

14

All right.

15

Yeah, you take marijuana.

So we've got some marijuana.


It is usually

16

in like a cylinder that has a hole in the top, a

17

hole in the bottom.

18

a liquid solvent.

19
20

They will take butane, which is

Is this just common butane that you can

get like at the hardware store?

21

Yes.

22

Stuff you put in your lighters, the old

23

fashion lighters that you had to put butane in?

24

Yes.

25

Can you get the same butane out of like a

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Bic disposable lighters?

Yeah,

I would assume so, yeah.

Okay, all right, go ahead.

So basically as it goes over the plant,

gravity takes effect and it will absorb the resinous

material, which is concentrated with the THC that

will go out the exit hole and into a pan.

have a nice little surface area there and they let

that evaporate off and then you're left with a very

10

sticky substance, which that is high THC content.

11
12

So you

MS. WHIRLEY:

Which is what the last thing

you said about THC.

13

14

Which has a high THC content.


(By Ms. Alizadeh)

That's sticky substance,

15

is it a combination of the butane and the THC that's

16

been extracted from the marijuana?

17

At first until butane evaporates off.

18

Will the butane evaporate off?

19

Yes.

20

And so is what your left with almost pure

I don't know for sure.

21
22
23
24
25

THC?
I haven't done

like a quant on that.


Q

But it is higher concentration than it

would be in the plant itself?

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Yes, definitely.

So if you're going to ingest, you know,

smoke a marijuana joint, if you consume the same

amount in that sticky substance, it would be way

more THC than what was in that joint?

You have taken the volume of plant

material, let's say, the size of this paper and you

are condensing it down to, you are taking the

cannabinoids and you are condensing it down without

10
11

the plant material matrix and all those steps.


Q

Okay.

This process that you talked about,

12

is this something like anybody could do if they have

13

the marijuana and then the right materials?

14

Sure.

15

And then why do people do this process?

16

I'm not really sure.

17

Okay.

If someone, do you know how they

18

then will consume or ingest the sticky substance

19

that they've gotten?

20

This is pure assumption, but I assume it

21

is just like marijuana, marijuana is commonly smoked

22

and marijuana can be ingested.

23

those food items that contain marijuana that they

24

come from Colorado and so forth.

25

And there are also

Maybe they're finding ways of using

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Page 104

the butane hunting oil to put it in those substances

so it doesn't look like there is plant material in

there.
I've also heard of lollipops that

have THC on them.

come from butane hunting oil, not marijuana.

can't put the marijuana plant in lollipops.

I would assume it would have to

So you've heard of people consuming or

ingesting this, you are calling it hunting oil?

10

Butane hunting oil.

11

Butane hunting oil.

12

They

people ingesting that,

You have heard of

correct?

13

Heard of it.

14

If one were to ingest that, you would be

15

consuming a higher level of THC than you would if

16

you were to have smoked or ingested the plant

17

material?

18

Yes, you would.

19

MS. ALIZADEH:

20

MS. WHIRLEY:

21

I don't have anything else.


I don't have anything.
If

22

someone is containing the substance that you

23

examined, which was the marijuana, would there be

24

like some type of detection that you could tell that

25

they're on marijuana or using marijuana or would

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there be like a scent or something like coming from

their body, within their skin.

tell a person is smoking because it is in their skin

cells, but could you detect that?

You know how you can

This is getting out of my expertise, but I

have heard that officers are trained to, they know

what the smell of marijuana,

marijuana.

I've been around

I know the smell of marijuana myself.


As far as what to look for on a

10

person,

11

haven't heard anything about the skin, there

12

probably is, there are probably some things out

13

there.

14

I mean,

I've heard of like bloodshot eyes,

MS. ALIZADEH:

And just so you all know,

15

obviously, we've talked about the fact that there is

16

going to be other witnesses testifying that will at

17

some point maybe have the expertise to explain this

18

to you.

19

testifies about his findings and he'll explain what

20

that means or what he can tell you about that.

21

We're going to have a toxicologist who

And then there also could be some other

22

evidence that makes this make sense to you.

It is

23

kind of hard,

24

tell you why I was asking these particular

25

questions, it might not mean anything to you right

I can't give you an open statement and

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Page 106

now.

You

mentioned that the normal procedure that it comes to

an intake person and then goes to the vault and it

would go to you?

Correct.
Or somebody in your

office, in this instance you said it did not go into

the vault?

10

No, it did not.

11

Is that because the rush

12

was put on it, is that the only reason it didn't go

13

to the vault or you wouldn't call this miss

14

handling?

15

No, no.

Usually when this happens,

I hear

16

this on the intercom that, hey, would somebody, a

17

drug chemist come up front.

18

who are accepting the evidence up front, there is

19

being a rush requested and they are trying to assign

20

it to a drug chemist right then and there instead.

So that means the women

21

Instead of putting it in

22

the vault and when you have time to get to it, next

23

on the list.

24

25

there.

First come first served.

Basically they want it done right then a

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Page 107

And on the scale, I just

want some clarification, you said the most it could

be off was 0.008 grams and that's, but then you went

back and you said, that it could be outside of that

amount three times out of a thousand.

Yes.

You do try to error on

the side of caution, but there is always three out

of a thousand could be incorrect?

10

Consider the way this was calculated when

11

we determine that we were going to put a K factor of

12

three on it, there's common K factors of two and

13

three.

14

maybe 97 percent.

15

do know that K three is higher up, so it is 99.7.

And two is, would be 99 point, I think it is

16

I'm not real sure on that but I

So we're saying statistically we are

17

95 percent confident that 997 out of a thousand

18

times that if you were to weigh this substance that

19

many times it would be within .008 grams of that

20

actual number we have.

21
22
23
24
25

Of the weight that you


have listed here?
A

Yes.
MS. ALIZADEH:

Let me ask a question.

don't know if I was thinking that maybe this is what

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you were getting at,

ask you this, when you looked at this evidence item

that you were testing, can you test marijuana to see

if there's butane on it?

I neglected to

I don't think that there's any good way of

testing that.

purely assumption, since butane would be a liquid,

it would be wet, but I think it would be evaporated

off at that point.

10
11
12

My assumption, and this is just

MS. ALIZADEH:

You don't test for it in

your lab?
A

We don't normally test for it.

Butane

13

could be tested on instrumentation.

14

procedure, it's never been presented to me to test

15

for it.

16

MS. ALIZADEH:

Okay.

I don't have a

So in this case you

17

didn't test this substance to see if it had butane

18

on it?

19

20

No,

I did not.

MS. ALIZADEH:

And it appeared to you both

21

in its texture and appearance it appeared to you to

22

be dried?

23

MS. ALIZADEH:

24
25

Yes.

And containing no other --

And if it was wet,

I would of made a note

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Page 109

of it.

I am going to

ask if it did have butane on it, there would either

be a sticky substance to the bag, it would be wet,

there would be some sort of sticky substance at the

bottom of the bag, but because it was dry and it was

not wet, you determined just from the appearance of

it that it would not be butane in it?

10
11

That would be my assumption, yes.


MS. ALIZADEH:

Without any real chemical

test, this is just your assumption, correct?

12

Just my assumption.
MS. ALIZADEH:

13

And it was not tested at

14

your laboratory to see if there was any butane on

15

it?

16

17

No, there was not.


MS. ALIZADEH:

All right.

18

Anyone else?
Do you have any

19

sense for how long this process takes to make the

20

butane from start to finish?

21

I wouldn't think it takes very long.

22
23

An hour to a day?
A

24
25

I'm sorry.
An hour to a day?

I'm not very familiar with how fast butane

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would evaporate off.

heard that there have been fires associated and

explosions because they may put out an ether odor to

it to make the process faster,

probably have that done well within an hour

depending on how much butane you have to evaporate

off.

Sometimes,

and yes, you could

It is hard for me to say exactly how

long that would a take.

10

MS. ALIZADEH:

11

MS. WHIRLEY:

12

MS. ALIZADEH:

13

I believe I have

Anyone else?

Sheila?

No.
This will conclude the

testimony of

14

.)

(End of the testimony of

15

MS. WHIRLEY:

October 7th, 2014.

We are resuming.

It is

16

2:38 p.m.

I'm Sheila Whirley,

17

Kathi Alizadeh stepped out, but she will be

18

rejoining us.

19

and we have as our next witness,

20

He'll spell his name for you in just a minute.

The grand jurors are here, also

21
22
23
24
25

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Page 111

1
2

of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to

testify the truth, the whole truth, and

nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid,

deposes and says in reply to oral

interrogatories, propounded as follows,

7
8
9

10
11

to-wit:

EXAMINATION
BY MS. WHIRLEY:
Q

All right.

, introduce yourself to the

grand jury and spell your name, please?


A

My name is

13

All right.

14

I am a latent examiner for the St. Louis

12

15

, what is your occupation?

County Police Department.

16

What does latent mean?

17

Latent is a term used for fingerprint.

18

Bottom line is a latent kind of refers to a print

19

that is when you touch a surface or object, your

20

print that is left behind is referred to as a latent

21

print.

22

What's a patent print?

23

Patent print is a print left like in paint

24

or blood or dirt,

if you have some something on your

25

hands or fingers and you touch a surface.

For

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Page 112

instance, if you have paint on your fingers,

you

touch the surface and you left your print behind in

paint, that's referred to as a patent print.

All right.

No,

How long have you been with the St. Louis

Are you a police officer?

I'm a civilian employee.

County Police Department?

It will be 25 years this coming March.

Did you start as a fingerprint examiner?

10

No,

11

How did you start with the department?

12

I started in security services as a

13

I did not.

security officer.

14

And then you moved to fingerprints?

15

Correct.

16

What is that department,

17

just the

fingerprint section?

18

It's a fingerprint unit.

19

Unit, okay.

21

A total of ten.

22

What did you have to do to become a

20

How many people are in the

unit?

23

fingerprint examiner, what type of training is

24

required?

25

I have been through the St. Louis County

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Page 113

and the FBI fingerprint print classification.

been through the St. Louis County Latent Training

Program,

International Association for Identification, which

are both associations that provide training

throughout, through conferences every year that I

attend for training for fingerprints.

I am a member of the Missouri and

8
9

I've

I am also a certified latent examiner


through the International Association for

10

Identification and I'm also a certified AFIS user

11

through the Missouri State Highway Patrol.

12

stands for Automated Fingerprint Identification

13

System.

14
15
16

What does AFIS do,

And AFIS

I mean, tell us a

little bit about AFIS?


A

Bottom line is, when a person is

17

fingerprinted, those prints are put into the AFIS

18

system.

19

prints to see if I can find a match through the AFIS

20

system.

21

And then it would be my job to search those

Okay.

What technical equipment, if any,

22

do you use in your job in doing your latent

23

fingerprint examination?

24
25

With the AFIS, with the AFIS system

basically I use magnifying glasses.

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So a lot of us we watch CSI and other

programs, and we believe that computers somehow

generate prints and tell us when there's a match and

you see all of these numbers.

programs, is that the way it is really done?

You've seen these

Partially yes, partially no.

Okay, tell us about it?

Urn, when I search a print, the AFIS system

searches the print itself and then it gives me a

10

candidate list.

Of the candidate list, the computer

11

is saying, for instance, if it comes back with 20

12

candidates.

13

thing that we have to what you just searched.

14

it is up to me to go into each candidate and do a

15

one-to-one comparison to see if it is or is not a

16

match.

The computer says this is the closest

17

And

So the bottom line is, the computer

18

does not tell you it's a match, it just gives you a

19

candidate list.

20

to say this is a match or it is not a match.

It is up to the individual person

21

How do you determine if it is a match?

22

I check for the minutia points in each

23

fingerprint.

Minutia points or bifurcation,

24

bifurcation, any ridges, ridge dots, ridge islands.

25

And arrangement of these minutia points and each

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fingerprint is what makes the fingerprint unique to

each person.

And unlike DNA, which identical twins can

have the same DNA, correct?

I mean, to your

knowledge?

To my knowledge, yes.

Right,

I mean, that's kind of common

knowledge, not that we know DNA here, but can two

people have the same fingerprint?

10

No.

11

Okay.

And when you talk about the minutia

12

points, are there a number of points you are looking

13

for in making an identification of a fingerprint?

14

The St. Louis County Police Department, we

15

have a standard of eight or more points.

16

basically what that means is, if I get a partial

17

fingerprint on whatever I'm looking at, if I can

18

only find seven or less of these points, we deem

19

that print insufficient.

20

more for us to say it is good evidence and then we

21

go to the next step.

22

Okay.

So

It has to have eight or

Any idea how many times you've made

23

a fingerprint identification?

I know I didn't tell

24

you to look for that information, but do you have

25

ever a conservative number, have you ever thought

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about it or looked at it?

Uh --

More than 100?

Probably hundreds of thousands for the

last 21 years, yes.

Do you do palm prints also?

Yes.

And tell us a little bit about palm print

9
10

identification, how do you do that?


A

Palm prints are the exact same thing as

11

fingers.

12

And actually, so also is the bottom of your toes and

13

the soles of your feet have the same friction ridges

14

and they're as unique as the your palms and your

15

fingers.

16

Your palms are as unique as your fingers.

Is it possible, like for you, right there

17

to sit there and touch every surface of that little

18

table or desk like thing you are sitting at, and not

19

leave fingerprints?

20

Yes, it is.

21

And how is that possible?

22

There are several factors.

23

factor is the person himself.

24

their perspiration.

25

friction ridges you have pores.

The first

Some people secrete

What I mean by that, on your


And you secrete

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your perspiration through your pores and it coats

your ridges.

leave your print behind by that means.

So when you touch something, you could

Some people don't secrete that much,

so they don't have enough moisture on their fingers

or palms when they do touch something to leave

something behind.

8
9

The other factors are the surface


itself.

Some surfaces are not good to get

10

fingerprints off of.

11

weather.

12

they've been sitting outside for the last week or

13

two or three, any type of weather condition, rain,

14

snow, heat, cold could possibly destroy a print that

15

was left on there.

16

Another factor would be the

If I was processing these glasses and

And so fingerprints are transferred from

17

the person to the item.

It has to do with the

18

moisture in there, on their skin?

19

Yes.

20

And some people, like who have very dry

21

skin may not leave a print?

22

Yes, that's correct.

23

Okay.

24

fingerprints,

25

does that work?

So tell us how you compare

a latent print with an ink print, how

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I do a side-by-side with the aid of an

magnifying glass and I'm checking for the minutia

points,

points and I just find a specific area to start from

and just do my comparison from there.

I'm checking for the quality of the minutia

And does someone overlook or oversee what

you've done and agree or disagree, or is it just

your determination, that's it?

10
11
12

When I make an identification, yes,

it is

checked through another latent examiner.


Q

Another examiner.

That's kind of the

standard procedure?

13

Yes.

14

Okay.

Now,

you know why we're here, this

15

is the Michael Brown shooting that we're talking

16

about and you had occasion to check for latent

17

prints; is that correct?

18

That is correct.

19

And what did you do in that case?

20

I received five latent lifts.

21

At this time let me just pass out some

22

copies of things I have.

23

(Deposition Exhibit Number 38

24
25

marked for identification.)


Q

(By Ms. Whirley) Why don't you take one

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and pass it around.

This is what you have before

you a copy of your envelope and then the lifts that

are inside the envelope?

That is correct.

We will let them get a copy and then we

can talk a little bit about it.

one that worked this case?

Yes.

Okay.

10

Are you the only

You were told specific things to

check for?

11

Yes.

12

You checked to see if there were

13

fingerprints is what I mean?

14

Yes.

15

Were you brought a latent print that

16

belonged to Michael Brown or did he have one in the

17

system or how did you get his prints?

18

You mean a fingerprint card?

19

Fingerprint card, yes,

20

They were brought to me from his deceased

21
22

I'm sorry.

prints.
Q

So tell us about that.

Is this something

23

that you've done before is check someone when you've

24

got prints from a deceased individual?

25

Yes,

I've done that before.

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2
3

In what cases, like what type of cases

would you be checking a deceased fingerprints?


A

On deceased prints is usually, you know, a

homicide or suspicious death or a person that is

found dead, they do not know their identity and they

take their prints and then we check them through the

system to see if we can find who they are.

9
10
11
12
13

So someone at the morgue actually

fingerprints the deceased?


A

It is usually one of the crime scene

detectives from St. Louis County.


Q

Okay.

Someone from the crime scene and

then they provide that to you?

14

Correct.

15

For comparison purposes?

16

Yes.

17

And in this case, now, everyone has a

18

copy, tell us, first of all, what things were you

19

told, or are you told what to check for, because you

20

don't know what to check for unless someone tells

21

you; is that right?

22

That is correct.

23

You are not investigating the case or

24
25

anything?
A

No.

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1
2
3

So what were you told to check for prints

Well, when I received the envelope the

on?

first thing I do is I check each latent lift, and as

I spoke of earlier, I check to see if each, if the

latent print, if there is any good latent prints on

the lift, if it is has eight or more points.

8
9

In the second, if I do find a print


that is good, then I will check if we have any

10

victim eliminations.

11

victim's prints or not.

12

the case, if they have something listed as a

13

suspect.

14

prints and check them against the good print.

17
18

If there is any suspects in

If we have him on file,

15
16

I would see if it is the

then I'll pull his

And I do that with each individual


lift that I receive.
Q

Okay.

And the lifts are provided to you

by crime scene detectives?

19

Yes, that's correct.

20

So they visually, what they see visually

21

is what they consider might be a print and they'll

22

lift it; how does that work?

23

That is correct.

24

Okay.

25

All right.

So they bring you, and

in this case they brought you how many lifts?

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Five.

Five.

Were any of the lifts, did any of

the lifts have enough points, and you said you need

at least eight to even be sufficient enough to

determine if there could be some identification of

the print?

That is correct.

Were any of them?

Yes, three of the five were good enough to

10
11
12

make, had eight or more points.


Q

That would be, tell us which ones that

would be, we have copies here?

13

Lift A.

14

Uh-huh.

15

Lift B and lift E.

16

So C and D were insufficient to even

17

determine an identification?

18

Correct.

19

All right.

So going back to what you were

20

told to look for prints on, tell us what that was,

21

what items were you looking for?

22

the evidence sheet like, go ahead.

23
24
25

It is probably on

Are you referring to the lifts or you

referring to the evidence sheet?


Q

You tell me,

let me ask the question.

The

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lifts, were they to, these lifts come from items

that's on the evidence sheet?

No.

Tell us where the lifts came from?

The lifts were delivered to our office by

6
7

Detective
Q

Okay, all right.

Were you supposed to be

seeing if they were fingerprints on any of these

items that are on the evidence receipt?

10

On the evidence receipt, yes.

11

Tell us about that, that's what I'm trying

12
13

to get to.
A

Okay, I'm sorry.

The evidence receipt was

14

brought in to me by Detective

15

And it was the gun belt of Officer Wilson, it had

16

handcuffs, your normal belt, the handcuffs, baton

17

holder, the walkie-talkie holder, there was no gun

18

in there, the holster, five keys, handcuff keys, two

19

magazines that, two fully loaded magazines.

20

And this was all on the gun belt?

21

That is correct.

22

So the gun belt was brought in to you?

23

Yes, it was.

24

Is there anything on here about, what's

25

the spray called, mace, is there anything, was there

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any mace can or mace holder or anything on this gun

belt?

No, huh-uh, not that I recall.

What's on the evidence receipt is supposed

to be everything that you looked at correct?

Correct.

All right.

So what were you supposed to

be doing with this gun belt?

Uh,

I use a chemical called Super Glue on

10

this.

Basically what we do with Super Glue is I

11

take all the items,

12

chamber.

13

bottom of a cup, turn on the Super Glue machine.

14

The fumes from the Super Glue will adhere to any

15

prints that are left behind on that surface.

16

then once the cycle has run through,

17

the items, and check to see if there is any latent

18

prints on there.

I put it into a Super Glue

Uh, put a little bit of Super Glue in the

Okay.

And

I will pullout

19

And you did that on all of the

20

items?

21

Yes,

22

And on the three that you had sufficient

I did.

23

enough points, a sufficient number of points, were

24

you able to make an identification?

25

Can I clarify something?

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Yes, please do.

The evidence, the fingerprints that were

good enough to make ID were from the police car, not

the gun belt.

I see.

Copy of this envelope, the five

lifts that Detective

dusted and lifted,

that's where the good prints were.

Okay.

Of the items brought to me that I

10
11

processed, were no identifiable prints.


Q

Okay.

And did you have,

just to make sure

12

I'm clear, were you not supposed to check the

13

Michael Brown prints that were lifted, right?

14

had a sample of his prints, correct?

15
16

Yes, but when you say lifted, it is more

fingerprinted.

17

Fingerprinted, thank you.

18

Uh-huh.

19

You were not asked to compare Michael

20
21
22

You

Brown's fingerprints with the officer's gun belt?


A

I was if there was any good prints to

compare it to and there was none.

23

There were no good prints?

24

On the gun belt.

25

Got it.

I'm going to reiterate just to

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make it clear.

There were no fingerprints that were

of sufficient number, as you talked about, to make

any kind of comparison; is that correct?

That is correct.

On the gun belt?

That is correct.

You would call that negative prints?

Yes.

That doesn't necessarily mean there were

10

no prints, it just means there wasn't enough for you

11

to make an identification?

12

That is correct.

13

Okay.

14

Now, for the car, which is what

this represents; is that right?

15

That is correct.

16

Okay.

So let's talk about the car.

Where

17

prints were lifted, is that the exterior left front

18

door?

19

Yes.

20

All right.

And this is where there were

21

three prints that had sufficient number to make an

22

identification?

23

That is correct.

24

Who did the prints come back to?

25

On Lift A,

I was able to identify Officer

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Wilson's print.

Lift Band E are good evidence, but

have not been identified to anyone as of today.

Okay.

Lifts C and D are insufficient.

So on lift Band E, they did not come back

as identifying Michael Brown?

That is correct.

Okay.
MS. WHIRLEY:

Questions?

10

So these

11

tests, you talked a little bit maybe about the life

12

expectancy of the print.

13

Darren or Michael Brown, how long or how much

14

earlier do you think those would have lasted?

15

it would have happened that morning, would it be

16

something from a previous day or any thoughts if

17

those are not those two prints, when those might

18

have been put there, any idea?

19

If it is not identified as

Really, no idea.

Say

On cars it is very

20

difficult because, and I don't know how the Ferguson

21

Police Department, how they, how their cars, how

22

many guys go in and out of their cars or if they

23

share their cars.

It is kind of difficult to say.

24
25

Thanks.
MS. WHIRLEY:

Anyone else?

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1
2

Did you
say what date you did your examine?

On which one, ma'am?


The car.

I received,

I did my examination on August

11th.

7
8

11th?
A

Yes, ma'am.

9
10
11

The prints were


lifted the day of, correct, or no?

On the envelope he has August the 9th as

12

the date.

13

the date they do it, sometimes that's the date of

14

the occurrence.

15

filled this out.

16

in the corner here.

17

date of the occurrence of the offense or it is the

18

date that he actually processed the car.

don't know if that's, sometimes that's

Detective

is the one who

August 9th is the date that he has


Like I

said,

19

it is either the

So lifts

20

Band E were good prints, but they did not match but

21

you had prints of Michael Brown?

22

That is correct.

23

And they also

24

didn't match the police officer or you would have

25

put that on, right?

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That is correct.

Have you run those two

prints through AFIS to see if they match anybody

that would have been on the scene?

Yes,

I have.

6
7
8

And they didn't match


anybody that could have been there?
A

No.

And I doubt we

10

have any reason to suspect, but as Dorian Johnson

11

was present, do we have the ability to test for his

12

prints to see if those are his?

13

question for you.

14
15
16

MS. WHIRLEY:

Dorian Johnson, was he

tested against?
A

I was not given that name to check.

17

Thank you.

18

MS. WHIRLEY:

19
20
21

Maybe that's not a

Would his prints be in


AFIS if he had been arrested at some point?
A

Yes, they would.

There is something on

22

the AFIS system, the AFIS system is not perfect.

23

is only about a 65 percent hit rate.

24

words,

25

behind and I search that print,

I'm in the AFIS system.

It

So, in other

If I leave my print
65 percent of time

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it is going to hit and 35 percent it is not going to

hit.

biggest factor, the two biggest factors of that is

quality of the latent print.

The factors that come into play, and the

If I touch something on my tip and I

leave enough minutia points of eight or more in

order for that to be a good print and I search that,

now when I got fingerprinted.

fingerprinted my tip.

10

there.

11

They may not have

So that tip may not be in

So there's factors that do come into play.


The bottom line is, the system is not

12

perfect.

Just because the person is in the system

13

and I search a print knowing, if I know that person

14

is in the system, it still may not hit.

15

The

16

only way to say whether or not these two that were

17

evidence, could be, that were real good prints, but

18

not Michael Brown's, to see if those were Dorian

19

Johnson's would be to fingerprint him?

20

That is correct, to check his prints.


MS. WHIRLEY:

21

Or if you had a card, you

22

would just need to look at it visually.

23

not count on AFIS?

24
25

You could

Correct.
MS. WHIRLEY:

You could do a visual

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comparison?

I would do a one-to-one comparison on it.

Do you

know what percentage of the population are

nonsecretors?

have no idea.

8
9

Did they
ever give you the gun to fingerprint the gun?
A

No, ma'am.

10

Never.
MS. WHIRLEY:

11

Do you know if anyone was

12

asked to fingerprint the gun, is this something you

13

would know?

14

I don't know off the stop of my head.

15

would think that they would bring it to -- since

16

they brought the gun belt and everything down,

17

think they would bring the gun to me, but I don't

18

know that.

19

Just to comment

20

on a question for you, but I do remember that they

21

specifically went the DNA route.

22

MS. WHIRLEY:

23

Kathi, since you don't know what we've

24

covered.

25

questions though.

Anyone else?

I don't know if you have any additional

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MS. ALIZADEH:

MS. WHIRLEY:

we let

go?

I do not.
Okay.

Anything else before

I thank you so much,

(End of

testimony.)

MS. ALIZADEH:

This October 7th at

3:21 p.m.

I'm present, as well as Sheila Whirley,

and 12 grand jurors are present, as well as

the court reporter.

and I just want to put on the record that during the

And we've had a little break

10

break there was some discussion, but it was

11

primarily about logistics and scheduling and

12

planning.

13

had to do with any substance of the case and the

14

evidence that has been presented.

15
16
17
18

There was really nothing discussed that

Would you all agree with that, we didn't


talk about the evidence?
(All indicate yes.)
MS. ALIZADEH:

So for now we are going to

19

resume this afternoon and we would first start off

20

by playing a statement by a witness named

21
22
23

I expect that she will be here a little


later this afternoon.

And this is a statement that

made to County Police officers on August 13th,

24

and the statement is recorded and contained on Grand

25

Jury Exhibit Number 24.

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Page 133

MS. WHIRLEY:

MS. ALIZADEH:

It says August 11th on here.


Make sure you all have a

statement that has August 11th on it.


So everybody has their transcript?

And at

this time,

We will then begin playing the recorded statement.

if you will pause the recording.

(Playing the interview of

MS. ALIZADEH:

It is 3:51 p.m. on

10

October 7th.

We just finished listening to the

11

recorded statement from

12

anybody need to hear that or a portion of it over

13

again?

14

say poor quality recording.

15

times.

Does

I really, as you all notice it was, I would

16

Difficult to hear at

So if there is a time when you want to

17

review that again, you have difficulty hearing that,

18

just let me know, all right.

19

And now we're going to play another

20

recorded statement for you.

And this is the

21

statement of

22

was done on August 13th and it is about 21 minutes,

23

a little over 21 minutes long.

24

going to hand out the transcripts for this

25

statement.

And this statement

And at this time I'm

So this statement is recorded and

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Page 134

contained in a file on the disc that is marked Grand

Jury Exhibit Number 24.

ahead and pause the audio recording while we listen

to the tape statement.

At this time,

, go

(Playing the audio recorded statement of

MS. ALIZADEH:

It is 4:15 p.m. and we just

finished playing a statement of

We

have another statement that we can start playing.

10

I'm not sure if the

11

also have another witness who might be here, but do

12

you all need to take a break?

13

are here yet and we

(Recess)

14

MS. ALIZADEH:

Next statement is about 23

15

minutes.

16

brief break.

17

Sheila Whirley and all 12 grand jurors and

18

court reporter.

19

It is the 7th of October.

We just took a

This is Kathi Alizadeh, present is


the

So I have learned during the break that

20

one of our witnesses who the cab was to pick her up

21

at 4:00 says that she, she missed the cab, so we

22

sent the cab back for her.

23

gotten on the cab or not, but we're going to go

24

ahead and playa taped statement now.

25

I don't know if she's

There's also

are supposed to be on there way.

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Page 135

She told me she was off work at 4:00.

I said as soon as, you get off a little earlier

great, as soon as you get off, come here.

So

So hopefully this will be about 23

minutes.

tell you that if nobody is here by then, that we'll

probably just recess.

people are even on their way.

We will play this statement and I will

I can't say for sure these

So I'm going to pass out a transcript of

10

the statement of Witness 34, which was done on

11

September 3rd.

12
13

Everybody has the transcript.


you will pause the audio recording.

14

In getting ready to listen to this

15

transcript,

16

Witness 34.

17

anticipate we will be referring to

18

as

19

is known.

This is another witness that I

So when you transcribe this,

21

you,

22

will assign

23

will be.

25

I mentioned that the witness name is

as a number

is very fearful for his safety if his identity

20

24

if

I will ask

, to use a number for the witness that we


once I figure out what number

And then we will also have to have that


somehow edited out of the audio so that these

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Page 136

audiotapes,

name is not used.

So we're not recording now, but in the

future I'll refer to

which I've got to look at my list and see what

number

and play the recording.

Grand Jury Exhibit 24.

8
9
10

would be.

as witness number blank,

So at this time we'll go ahead


And this recording is on

(Interview of Witness 34 is being played


at this time.)
MS. WHIRLEY:

The recording of Witness 34

11

is completed and it is approximately 5:09 p.m.,

12

time on October the 7th, 2014.

13

pause the recording.

14

any witnesses that we have planned that have arrived

15

at this time.

16
17

our

We're going to just

I'm going to see if there are

(Recess)
MS. ALIZADEH:

It is 5:18.

This is Kathi

18

Alizadeh, Sheila Whirley is here, all 12 jurors and

19

, the court reporter, who is taking down

20

everything that is being said.

21

witness here to testify.

And we have our next

22
23
24
25

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Page 137

of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to

testify the truth, the whole truth, and

nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid,

deposes and says in reply to oral

interrogatories, propounded as follows, to-wit:

7
8
9

10
11

EXAMINATION
BY MS. ALIZADEH:
Q

Could you please state your name and spell

it for the court reporter?


, last name

12
13

Okay.

You have a very nice, clear

14

voice.

15

Thank you.

16

So you're doing a good job making sure

17

everybody can hear us.

18

to amplify, it is just recording.

19

voice up.

20

The microphone isn't going


So just keep your

I'm going to direct you over here.

21

This is a map that we have and it is labeled Grand

22

Jury Exhibit Number 25.

23

crooked, but it is.

24

and the buildings that are on this map?

25

I don't know why this is

So do you recognize the roads

Yes, ma'am.

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Page 138

Okay.

So let's, we're going to use this

laser pointer as we're talking about things on the

map.

don't have to get up and move around and the grand

jurors can see what you are pointing at, okay?

And you can use that to point so that you

Yes, ma'am.

And are you married or single?

10

Single.

11

Are you do you have fiancee?

12

Yes,

13

Who is that?

14

15

And do you live with

16

Yes, ma'am.

17

And how long have you two been living

18
19
20
21
22

how old are you?


years old.

I have a fiancee.

together?
A

We have been staying together now for

about four years, three and a half, four years.


Q

Do you and

live in the Canfield

Green Apartment Complex?

23

Yes, ma'am.

24

So you were both living there in August of

25

this year?

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Yes, ma'am.

Okay.

Now,

can you point on the laser

pointer the building that you and

live in?

(Indicating. )

You are directing it to Building Number

Yes, ma'am.

This number,

is that the number of your

apartment unit?

Yes, ma'am.

10

So this would be on the south end of, the

11

south side of the building.

If this way is south,

12

that's on the south side of the building, correct?

13

Yes, ma'am.

14

What floor are you on?

15

The second floor.

16

And is that,

18

One floor above me,

19

And we've heard testimony about the stairs

17

so you have one floor above

you?
correct.

20

and the balconies and the staircase that's outside

21

of your apartment?

22

Yes, ma'am.

23

All right.

So let's take you back to the

24

morning of August 9th.

Anything special or unusual

25

happen in the morning or was it just an ordinary

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Saturday morning?

It was an ordinary Saturday morning.

And were you home?

Yes, ma'am.

And

Yes, ma'am.

Now, you have a child?

I have

Okay.

10

Yes, ma'am.

11

Just give me the age range?

12

13

14
15
16
17
18

Okay.

was home?

boys.
Were they all home?

And so somewhere around noon of

that day, what were you doing?


A

Around noon that day I was in the kitchen

on my cell phone and I was eating lunch.


Q

All right.

And so was

home at

that time?

19

Yes,

20

And what, if anything, happened that

21
22

was home.

changed, you know, your attention?


A

Because there was a knock on my front door

23

and being that I was woke,

I went to open up the

24

door and saw it was

25

So I went in the bedroom to wake

friend at the door.


up to tell

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Page 141

him that he had a visitor at the door.

put on him some clothes and he was outside maybe

five minutes.

in the house.

5
6

Okay.

He got up,

Then he turned around and came back

So did you stay inside the house

when he went outside?

Yes, ma'am.

Were you in the kitchen, did you say?

Yes, rna' am,

10

Okay.

11

was in the kitchen.

So from the kitchen can you see

outside of your apartment?

12

No, ma'am.

13

Okay.

14

So when he went outside, he was out

there about five minutes and then he came back in?

15

Yes, ma'am.

16

Did his friend come in with him?

17

No, ma'am.

18

Who was the friend,

19

His name,

yeah, he's been over to the

20

apartment a couple of times.

21

first name is

22
23
24
25

Okay.

do you know him?

All I know is his

And so after

came back,

what happened?
A

came back, he walked through the

living room and went into the bedroom.

Now,

I was

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in the kitchen on the phone and I heard him scream

my name, but I wasn't paying him any attention

because I was in on the phone talking to my sister.

So then he screamed my name a second time, they're

outside shooting.

So by this time I run out my kitchen

to the living room to look out my patio door.

And

as I looked out the patio door,

standing outside his vehicle with his gun in his

I saw the officer

10

hand and I saw a black male running away from the

11

officer.

12

Okay.

13

Okay.

14

When you heard

15

So let me stop you here.

say, they're

shooting.

16

Uh-huh.

17

Did you hear any gunshots before he said

No, because I wasn't paying any attention

18

that?

19
20

to what was going on outside.

21

on my phone,

22

Now, this was August 9th?

23

Correct.

24

And as I recall, it was a hot day that

25

I was in the kitchen

I was on the phone.

day?

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Uh-huh.

Would you have your windows open or

closed?

AC on.

The window was closed because we had the

Okay.

And so

was in the bedroom

you said?

Correct.

They're shooting?

10

Correct.

11

And then you get up and you go outside

12

onto the balcony?

13

No,

I get up when he said, they're

14

shooting, I go from the kitchen to the living room

15

and looked out my patio blinds.

16

Okay.

17

Yeah.

18

And so we heard some testimony about how

19

these apartment units are sliding glass doors?

20

Yes, ma'am.

21

And then it has vertical blinds?

22

Correct.

23

So did you have to open the blinds to see

No,

24
25

out?
I just pulled them apart like this and

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Page 144

1
2
3

looked out through the blinds.


Q

And so from where you were standing on

your second floor apartment.

Uh-huh.

On the front of the building?

Uh-huh.

Could you see down to this area on

Canfield?

Yes, ma'am.

10

And did you see the police vehicle?

11

Yes, ma'am.

12

What kind of car was it?

13

It was an SUV truck.

14

Okay.

15

And when you first looked, you said

the officer was already out of the car?

16

Correct.

17

So you didn't hear or see anything that

18

happened before you saw that?

19

Correct.

20

And you saw the officer, you said he had

21

his gun drawn?

22

Correct.

23

And I don't know what that means, so can

24

you stand up and demonstrate for the jurors what you

25

mean when you say he had his gun drawn?

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Page 145

When I looked out the patio window, the

officer had his gun like this, had his finger on the

trigger, he was holding it just like this.

(indicating)

Okay.

So you can sit down.

Where was the

officer when you saw him?

He was standing right there on the

driver's side like right by his door, his door was

open.

10

door, the driver's side door.

11
12

His vehicle was facing like going deeper

into the apartments.

15
16

Do you recall which direction his car was

facing on Canfield Drive?

13
14

So he's standing like a little bit past his

So his vehicle was facing this direction?

(indicating)

17

Correct.

18

So the front of his vehicle was here?

19

(indicating)

20

Correct.

21

So you're saying that his driver's door

22

was open?

23

Correct.

24

So, was it from your position then, you

25

can see the driver's side of that vehicle?

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Page 146

Correct.

And he's standing outside the driver's

Correct.

And now you said you saw a young man

door?

running away?

Correct.

Did you recognize him?

No.

10

Haven't seen him before that day?

11

No, ma'am.

12

Did you see any other people in the area?

13

Yes.

I saw another shorter

14

African-American male.

15

vehicle was facing, was facing this way and there

16

was a white Monte Carlo facing,

17

opposite way.

18

passenger side of the white Monte Carlo and he was

19

down like this.

20

At this time the police

they was going the

The other black male was on the

(indicating)
He had dreads,

I say like right here,

21

and as I'm looking, and then by then I come out my

22

apartment just to get a closer look.

23

black male that was behind the white vehicle.

24

jumps inside the white car and the white Monte Carlo

25

goes up the street.

And I see the


He

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Okay.

So the black male that you saw

running away.

Correct.

Where was he in relation to the police car

when you first saw him?

He was like, okay, the police vehicle is

like here.

from the vehicle.

He was like a good little distance away

Okay.

(indicating)
So if the vehicle can you use the

10

pointer and show where the vehicle was, police

11

vehicle?

12
13

right in here.

14
15

The police vehicle was like right,

like

(indicating)

Okay.

Now,

I'm going to put my finger

where you had the pointer?

16

Uh-huh.

17

Show with the pointer where the boy that

18

was running, where was he when you first saw him?

19
20

right here from where I could see him.

21
22
23

When I first saw him he was probably like


(indicating)

And the officer was still at his driver's

Correct, he was, the officer had his

door?

24

vehicle

(sic)

in his hand and he was taking large

25

steps towards the guy as he was running.

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So you see the officer moving in the

direction that the guy was running?

That the guy was running, yes, ma'am.

When you say the guy was running, is this

like a full-out run or is this a jog?

Like a jog, yes, ma'am.

Okay.

So then as I see the guy get out, like he

disappeared.

So what do you see next happen?

I didn't see him any more.

10

Which guy?

11

The big one.

12

Okay.

13

So we know that man's name now is

Michael Brown?

14

Michael Brown, correct.

15

You didn't know it then?

16

Correct.

17

So we'll go ahead and call him Michael

18

Brown since we know who he is now.

19

Yes, ma'am.

20

So he disappears from your view?

21

He disappears from my view.

So by this

22

time I come out my front door and I'm now standing

23

on my patio.

24

25

Now, at this point have you heard any

gunshots?

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Yes.

When did you first hear gunshots?

I started hearing the gunshots, when I

looked out the patio and I saw the officer walking,

taking big steps and shooting, that's when I open up

my front door and I came out onto my patio.

Okay.

So you're saying as he was moving

towards Michael Brown.

He was firing.

10

He was firing.

11

hear fired?

12

How many gunshots did you

I heard three shots.

And that's what made

13

me come out on my patio.

So as I come out on my

14

patio, I see that the victim, okay,

15

Brown can no longer be seen.

16

patio, I finally see Mike Brown walking like this

17

with his hands up.

18

officer.

I see that Mike

As I come out on my

He's now walking towards the

19

You didn't see him turn around?

20

No.

21

Okay.

22

Uh-huh.

23

With the laser pointer where you first saw

24
25

So from where you first saw him.

him when he had his hands up?


A

He was maybe like right here where this

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car is at.

2
3

And so you said he was facing the

He's now facing the officer with his hands

up like this.

Okay.

officer at that point?

(indicating)

Okay.

(indicating)
Do your hand the way his hands

were?

( Indicating)

So, for the record, you've got your upper

10

arms are somewhat parallel to the floor and you've

11

got your palms, out fingers are pointing skyward or

12

up to the ceiling and your hands are about the level

13

of the side of your head?

14

Correct.

15

Okay.

16
17
18

Go ahead and sit down.


And so did you see, what did you see

happen then?
A

As Mike Brown is walking toward the

19

officer, he's started taking big steps toward him

20

and he opened shot, pulled the trigger.

21
22

You see Mike Brown walking towards the

officer?

23

Correct.

24

How many steps did you watch him walk?

25

Maybe a good four or five steps.

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Okay.

was walking?

walking?

And how would you describe how he

Was he walking quickly was he casually

He was casually walking as if he had got

shot and he started feeling the pain or something

like that, where like he couldn't, you know, pick up

his pace because of the shot.

Did you see that he had been shot?

Yes.

10

How did you know he had been shot?

11

Because as the officer is shooting,

12

assumed that it was, he was being tased because I've

13

never witnessed anyone being shot.

14

fiancee is that,

15

why isn't he falling.

16

gunshot because I've never seen anyone get shot.

17
18

And I asked my

I'm like, he's being tased, right,


That's not tased, that's

So are you saying that that conversation

was while this was going on?

19

Right.

20

What makes you say that you saw that he

21
22

was shot?
A

Because as, as the officer is shooting,

23

like you see, like I guess like little smoke or

24

whatever it was that as the bullets was hitting him,

25

you saw like the little smoke coming from his chest.

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That's why I assumed he was being tased.

guess looking at movies and seeing people get shot

and they automatically fall,

ever seeing someone being shot like that close.

I assumed that he was being tased.

Because I

that was my first time


So

So as you see him getting shot or you see

what you've described that you think that's the

bullets hitting him.

Uh-huh.

10

He continues to walk toward the officer?

11

At this time it is like his steps were

12

ceasing as, you know, he was about ready to fall

13

over.

14
15

And what was the officer doing, was he

standing still or was he moving?

16

He was steady moving

17

Steady movie in what direction?

18

Towards Mike Brown.

19

How close did he get to Mike Brown?

20

21

say he was maybe a good, maybe 10 feet

away from him.

22

Okay.

23

And then he shot.

24
25

And then, you know Mike

Brown, he fell face down to the pavement.


Q

All right.

And you said you had come

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Page 153

outside at this point?

Correct.

Did you hear anybody saying anything?

No.

You couldn't hear,

is it because you could

not hear because of your distance?

couldn't, right,

couldn't hear what

was being said as far as like if the officer was

saying anything to Mike Brown,

10

didn't hear any of

that.

11

After Mike Brown fell onto the pavement?

12

Uh-huh.

13

Did you stay outside and continue to

14

watch?

15

Yes, ma'am.

16

Did you see anybody move his body other

17

than when it eventually was removed?

18

No.

19

Okay.

20

How about the police car, did you

see anybody move the police cars?

21

Yes.

22

When did that happen?

23

That happened right after Mike Brown fell

24

and another officer, another Ferguson cop car pulled

25

up.

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Page 154

So what did the officer do after Mike

Brown fell?

He walked over to him and he did this, and

he stepped back.
Q

(indicating)

Did you see him talking on his radio or

anything?

No.

Did he go back to his car?

No.

10

All right.

11

to his car?

12

No.

13

And then other officers came?

14

Yes, ma'am.

15

And eventually his vehicle was towed away?

16

Correct.

17

Did you see anybody move it before it was

18

towed away?

19

No.

20

So it stayed in that same spot?

21

Uh-huh.

22

Urn, and so now just to clarify, you have,

23

Did you ever see him go back

you talked to the police

24

Correct.

25

-- first.

On the day that this happened;

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Page 155

1
2
3
4

is that right, yes?


A

happened,
Q

I don't think it was the day that it


I think it was a couple days later.
Okay.

Do you remember the officers, when

you first talked to the officers, did they come to

your house?

Yes.

Okay.

9
10

Was this because you told them that

you had seen something or were they doing like


knocking on doors?

11

They was knocking on doors.

12

Okay.

13

To see who all was at home.

14

Okay.

15

And so if, when they talk to you,

did they tape record your statement?

16

Yes, ma'am.

17

If they said the date on the recording,

18

would you think that that's probably the date that

19

it happened?

20

Correct.

21

So we're going to trust the recording as

22

to what date that was, okay?

23

Yes, ma'am.

24

And so you spoke to the officers for just

25

a few minutes briefly on that day; is that right?

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Page 156

Correct.

Was there anything that you left out when

you spoke to the officers?

No, ma'am.

You don't recall?

No, rna' am,

And so when you talked to the officers on

don't recall.

the day that this happened.

Uh-huh.

10

Well, you know what I would have to,

11

need a moment.

Let me ask you to wrap up my

12

questions and then we'll see if anybody else has

13

questions.

14

Yes, ma'am.

15

So after this happened, and you spoke to

16

the officers, since then, did you speak to other

17

investigators?

18

I talked to the FBI.

19

Okay.

20

And did you go to them or did they

come to you?

21

They came to me.

22

To your house?

23

Yes, ma'am.

24

And did they record your statement?

25

Yes, ma'am.

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Page 157

Okay.

It was only, it was a couple of minutes.

Okay.

How long did you talk to them?

And is what your telling today the

best of your recollection?

Yes, ma'am.

Did you ever see anything in Michael

Brown's hands?

No, ma'am.

Did you ever see him holding his side?

10

Yes.

11

Okay.

12

Yes.

So then you haven't mentioned that?


He had his hands up and as he, the

13

officer steady taking big steps shooting at him, his

14

hand goes like this and he holds his side as he has

15

been hit.

16

collapsed and fell onto the ground.

17
18
19
20
21

The officer shot again and that's when he

Okay.

(indicating)

So when he was going down and

collapsing, his arms were not up any more?


A

No, ma'am, they were now, he was holding

his side.
Q

Okay.

Do you know the other guy that ran

22

away and got in the car and left, do you know who

23

that is?

24

No, ma'am.

25

Never seen him before?

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No, ma'am.

Have you and Michael talked about, after

it happened I imagine you guys talk about it?


A

saw?

Uh-huh.

Have you talked about it in detail?

No, ma'am.

10

Did he tell you what he saw?

11

No, he didn't.

He was affected by it and

12

then I was affected, and that my kids was affected.

13

And beings that my kids was so young, we try not to

14

discuss that in the household around the kids

15

because we want them to get that out of their mind

16

and be kids.

17
18

MS. ALIZADEH:

21

MS. WHIRLEY:

running, did you hear any shots fired?


A

No, ma'am.

23

Okay.

25

Yeah.

(By Ms. Whirley) Before you saw him

22

24

Sheila, do you

have any questions?

19
20

Sure, okay.

So you first heard shots fired when

you saw him running?


A

Yes, ma'am.

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Page 159

And the officer was pursuing him shooting

at his back?

Yes, ma'am.

All right.

And you did not see him turn

around; is that right?

No.

So the next thing you saw was what?

I did not see him turn around and then

when I finally open up my front door and go out onto

10

my patio,

I saw him with his hands up and he's now

11

facing the officer and he's walking towards the

12

officer with his hands up.

13

So his hands were up above his head?

14

No, it was more like this.

15

Okay.

16

Correct.

17

Okay.

(indicating)

Kind of parallel with his head?

Now, when you first talked to the

18

police back, August 9th is the date that we have.

19

It was a few hours after this had occurred.

20

Okay.

21

There is no mention about his hands being

22

up.

23

tell the police on that day?

24
25

What do you think about that, why you didn't

I did tell the officers that his hands was

up.

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Okay.

The recording, and we have a copy

of the recorded statement there's a transcript,

there's nothing in there that talks about his hands

being up.

You do recall telling him?

Uh-huh.

You clearly remember that?

Yes, ma'am.

And when he had his hands up, there wasn't

anything in his hands you said?

10

No, ma'am.

11

And how far away was he from the officer

12

when he turned around and he had his hands up, how

13

far away?

14

He was probably about 20, 15 feet away.

15

15, 20 feet away?

16

Uh-huh.

17

And he has his hands up and you said the

18
19

officer start shooting?


A

The officer was constantly walking, taking

20

large steps towards him with his gun in his hand,

21

steady firing.

22

Okay.

23

I want to say a couple days to a week

24

afterwards.

25

Okay.

And when did you meet with the FBI?

And that was recorded I heard you

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say earlier?

Yes.

And you told them about the hands up?

Uh-huh.

So when he shot him,

guess first it was

20 feet away you say when it started?

Uh-huh.

And then Mike Brown is walking towards him

after he shoots him?

10

Uh-huh.

11

And he is doing what at that point when

12
13

he's walking towards him?


A

He's walking towards him with his hands up

14

and then I guess as the officer is constantly

15

shooting him, one of the shots must have hit him in

16

the side and then he grabbed his side like this.

17

The officer steady shoot and then he just falls over

18

onto the pavement.

19
20

Okay.

So you never saw him run towards

the officer?

21

No, ma'am.

22

Or charge at the officer?

23

No, ma'am.

24

Did he ever look like he was a threat in

25

your opinion to the officer?

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Page 162

No, ma'am.

Did it appear to you that the officer

needed to keep shooting

No, ma'am.

In order to protect himself?

No, ma'am.

You didn't see it that way?

No, ma'am.

Okay.

10

Questions.

MS. ALIZADEH:

11

more thing,

12

the day this happened.

13

14

I just want to clear up one

When you spoke to the officer on

Uh-huh.
MS. ALIZADEH:

And, again, the grand

15

jurors have the transcript and they will be able to

16

listen to the tapes again.

17

anything about his hands being up on that day, and

18

you don't mention anything about his hands going to

19

his side as if he were shot, do you think that it is

20

possible that now you believe that that's a memory

21

because you've heard people talk about that?

If you did not mention

22

No, ma'am.

23

At the end of your interview on that day,

24

the officer said is there anything you want to add

25

to this statement?

And you said that when the guy,

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Page 163

once he tipped over, he hit the pavement, you saw

his body like flinching like he was trying to get

up.

officer stepped back away from the body and that was

that?

And after that he stopped moving and the

Yes.

That was it?

Uh-huh.

So today you said the officer stepped

10
11

toward the body and looked over the body?


A

Right, as he shot the last time and Mike

12

Brown fell to the ground, he did this and then he

13

stepped away.

14

15

(indicating)

Okay.
MS. ALIZADEH:

Anybody have questions?

16

Tell me again

17

when he was, when Michael Brown was shot the second

18

time, he had his hands up?

19

Correct.

20
21
22

You assume that he might


have been wounded on the side?
A

Uh-huh.

23
24
25

Did both hands go down to


the wound or just one?
A

Yes, both.

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Page 164

So what I'm doing with

both hands here on my right side,

representative?

(indicating)

Yes, sir.

Thank you.

5
6

is that

You're welcome.

THE COURT:

Anybody else?
Just to be

clear.

10

The last shots that the police officer took.


Uh-huh.

11
12
13

Michael Brown's hands


were not in here, they were down here.

(indicating)

Correct.

14

I'm looking at the

15

transcript that we have here.

16

little part of it.

17

assume,

18

going down, but then when I talked to my fiancee he

19

said it was actually gunshots, and like he shot him

20

two more times.

21

I just want to read a

While standing there looking,

I figure that they had tased him, he was

22

That's when the guy tipped over.

Uh-huh.
The officer walked up,

23

shot him three more times and the dude just tipped

24

over head first and his head smashed into the

25

pavement.

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Page 165

Are you telling us that, it sounds like

you are saying in this transcript that the guy

tipped over and after he shot him more when he was

tipped over.

No.
No, that is not.

6
7

No, ma'am.
Thank you.

8
9

10
11

You're welcome.
MS. WHIRLEY:

Just to make sure I'm clear

now.

12

So he shot, his hands were up, he shot, he

13

does this and he's tipping over and then he's being

14

shot again?

15

No, his hands was up, he was shot, he did

16

this, and the officer shot again and then he just

17

fell,

and his face hit the ground.


MS. WHIRLEY:

18

19
20

23
24
25

Do you know how many times

the officer shot total?


A

21
22

(indicating)

No, ma'am.
MS. WHIRLEY:

Do you know how many times

he shot on the last occasion before he tipped over?


A

Maybe about three times.


MS. WHIRLEY:

Okay.
You said

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Page 166

1
2

you saw Dorian duck down by the white Monte Carlo?


A

MS. ALIZADEH:

4
5

Uh-huh.

know his name?


A

I don't know his name.


I'm sorry.

6
MS. ALIZADEH:

Just to clarify, she didn't

know his name.

I'm not saying she can't

The guy, we know his name is Dorian.


Oh, okay.

And my question

10

is, when you saw him duck down, were you coming out

11

of your patio at the time when you did not see him

12

any more?

13

No,

I was standing on my patio, that's how

14

I know that he got inside the white Monte Carlo and

15

the Monte Carlo went up the street.

16
17
18

So you actually saw him


get into the car?
A

I saw the driver door open and he did

19

this, got in it, the door closed and the car went up

20

the street.

21
22
23

You were outside on your


patio at the time?
A

I was outside on my patio.

24
25

Okay.
MS. WHIRLEY:

Now, we see that you wear

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Page 167

1
2

glasses?
A

MS. WHIRLEY:

4
5

11

Near sight.
MS. WHIRLEY:

Is your vision corrected

with the glasses.


A

Yes, ma'am.
MS. WHIRLEY:

10

Do you wear them for

distance or for near sight?

Yes, ma'am.

Were you wearing glasses

when you were looking at all this?


A

12

Yes, ma'am.
MS. WHIRLEY:

Was there anything to impair

13

your vision or impair you from seeing what you told

14

us here today?

15

No, my kids were out, by this, when I open

16

up the door to go out onto the patio, my boys came

17

outside.

18

back away from the patio and pull them back into the

19

house just so they won't be seeing and hearing all

20

of this stuff that was going on.

21

MS. WHIRLEY:

22
23
24
25

So I'm kind of like trying to pull them

So you were distracted a

little bit with your boys?


A

Correct.
MS. WHIRLEY:

During what period of time

was this when you were working with your boys, what

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Page 168

was going on?

This was as the officer is shooting and as

his hands, Mike Brown hands is up and the officer is

shooting, I'm trying to pull my boys back because

I've never been around anything with shooting, I

didn't know if the bullets would -MS. WHIRLEY:

We certainly understand

that.

when you were pulling the boys back?

10

I just wanted to know did you miss anything

That could possibly be true.

Because I'm

11

trying to see what's going on in the streets, but at

12

the same time I'm trying to pull my kids away from

13

the patio and back in the house to keep them from

14

witnessing and seeing and hearing what is going on

15

as well.

16
17
18

MS. WHIRLEY:
what you witnessed -Yes, ma'am.

19

MS. WHIRLEY:

20

heard.

21

22

Is everything you told us

and not something you

Is everything -Everything that I said to today is what I

witnessed, yes, ma'am.

23

One more

24

question.

You didn't feel like he was moving in an

25

aggressive manner.

Could you see Michael Brown's

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Page 169

face?

No,

I couldn't see his face.


You couldn't see his

3
4
5

face?
A

No, ma'am.
Thank you.

6
7

You're welcome.
MS. ALIZADEH:

Anything?

(End of the testimony of

10
11

of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to

12

testify the truth, the whole truth, and

13

nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid,

14

deposes and says in reply to oral

15

interrogatories, propounded as follows,

16
17
18
19
20

to-wit:

EXAMINATION
BY MS. WHIRLEY:
Q

Would you please introduce yourself to the

grand jurors and spell your name, please?


A

My name is

All right.

21
22
23

now, do you live in

the Canfield Green Apartments?

24

No.

25

Okay.

Do you know anybody that lives

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there?

I know two people that live there.

Who is that?

Urn, one is

like on the back end of it and one of

6
7

that stays

stay there.
Q

You may notice we have a map here, does

that map kind of look like Canfield?

Pretty much.

10

You can recognize places on this map and

11

here is a pen that you can use.

12

button and the red light appears.

13

few questions about that in just a moment.

14
15

You point that


So I'll ask you a

So you live, not in the Canfield


Green Apartments?

16

No, ma'am.

17

Now you know why we are here today, we are

18

here about the shooting of Michael Brown, right?

19

Uh-huh.

20

On August the 9th you were obviously at

21

the Canfield Green Apartments; is that right?

22

Yeah.

23

What were you doing there?

24

I was bringing one of

25

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Page 171

was bringing it back that day.

2
3

was with you.

Who was

with you, were you in a car?

So your

I was in a van, it was me, my husband, two

of my daughters and my granddaughter.

Okay.

Yes.

And had yours husband

10

11

It's

12

So what route did you take going to

13

So there is five people in the van?

What color was your van?

Canfield.

This is West Florissant, right?

14

Uh-huh.

15

So what was your route,

16

show us with the

pen?
A

19

saw whatever you saw?

20

21

further up.

22

Which way?

23

It was probably about around here.

24
25

Pretty much.

It was probably a little bit

(indicating)
Q

Okay.

When you are at this location, what

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Page 172

did you see?

Well, when I was coming around here,

heard like about two or three gunshots.

Were you driving?

Yes.

Okay.

So at first I thought it was firecrackers,

but when we got around,

be sure, it was like about somewhere in between

10

here,

I seen a police car,

I can't

I think the police car may have been.

11

What direction was the place car facing?

12

It was facing towards me.

13

West Florissant?

14

Yes, it was facing toward West Florissant.

15

Was it driving?

16

It wasn't driving,

17

And what position was the car in?

18

It was like pulled off to the side a

it was sitting still.

19

little bit, it wasn't directly coming down the

20

street, it was like pulled off into the side by the

21

sidewalk.

22

Like was it blocking the road?

23

No, it wasn't blocking the road.

24

So you could drive straight by without

25

having to go around it?

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Page 173

Yes.

Okay.

police car?

in the car.

the car.

So is anybody in the car in the

Well, at the time I wasn't really looking


I was looking at the person standing by

Who was the person standing by the car?

I don't know who the person,

9
10
11
12
13

who the person was,

I didn't know

I just knew it was an

African-American male standing at the car.


Q

What did you see while the male was

standing at the car?


A

He looked like pretty much had his hands

14

directly pretty much in front of him standing at the

15

car looking like he was just talking.

16

tell what was going on, he was standing at the car.

17
18

I couldn't

He was standing at the police car.

Where

at the police car?

19

He was standing at the driver's door.

20

At the driver's door.

21
22
23

Was he inside, like

leaning inside?
A

He was just like standing bent down

towards the door.

24

Okay.

25

Yes.

Did it appear the window was down?

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Page 174

Did it appear someone was in the car, you

said you couldn't tell?

I kind of figured it was someone in the

car because he was standing there with the window

open looking down into the car.

Into the police car.

Did that seem

strange to you?

No.

Why not?

10

Because I figure that he either was

11

talking to the officer or the officer was talking to

12

him.

13

Okay.

So you didn't see anything that

14

looked aggressive like fighting or tussling or

15

anything like that?

16

Well because of the gunshots I thought

17

that he was either shooting at the cop or something

18

was going on or something might have been going on

19

around in the area.

20

the police car and after hearing the shots I was

21

like kind of leery about going any further.

So I just, when I first seen

22

So you say you saw the shots?

23

No,

24

I'm sorry, you heard the shots, so thank

25

I didn't see them,

you for correcting me.

I heard them.

And then you saw the black

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Page 175

male at the driver's side door of the police car?

Yes.

But you couldn't see his hands?

No.

But you didn't see any movement?

No, he was just pretty much just standing

there and then he kind of, urn, started backing away

from it and stuff at first.

something away, but I couldn't be sure if that's

10

I thought he slung

what I saw right now.

11

Okay.

12

Because I couldn't remember that.

13

When you heard the shot, was he still

14
15

standing at the police car in the driver's door?


A

I'm not exactly sure because like I said,

16

we heard the shots.

17

like about right, when we was coming around the bend

18

around that corner.

19

actually got a visual of what was going, you know,

20

people standing there.

21
22

I heard the shots when we were

I didn't hear anything when I

And how many shots did you hear when you

were coming in this way?

23

It was at least about two or three.

24

Two or three.

25

Okay.

So you heard the

shots and then when you got up and a little closer

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and you saw the police car, you say you saw this

black male at the driver's side window?

Yes.

So that was before you heard the, well,

you heard the shots and then after you heard the

shots, you saw the male at the window?

Yes.

And then what did you see?

Urn, after that,

like I say, he backed away

10

from the car and he, urn, he was like standing there

11

for a minute and then he took off running.

12

Okay.

13

He was running away from West Florissant.

14

Which way was he running,

15

He was, urn,

16

was at.

17

(indicating)

show me?

I don't know exactly where it

He started running back this way.

18

Was he running in the street?

19

Yes.

20

Okay.

21
22

And what did, what else did you see

after you saw him running?


A

After he took off running,

I was watching

23

the police officer get out of the car.

He got out

24

of the car and closed the door and then he started

25

running after that guy.

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Page 177

2
3

Did you see anything in the police

officer's hand?
A

Yes, he had his gun drawn and it was down

to his side.

When you said drawn and down to his side,

can you explain that for me?

It wasn't in the holster.

Okay.

It was just in his --

10

You mind demonstrating how he had it

11

drawn?

12

He was trying to get out of the car, he

13

looked like he was having a little bit of difficulty

14

getting out of the car at first and then he started

15

running.

16

right, but I know he had it down to the side and his

17

other hand was up like this running.

18

running towards the guy with the gun in his hand,

19

not in the holster.

20
21

I can't remember if it was the left or

Okay.

So he was

Can you describe the guy that he

was running after?

22

Urn, he was kind of heavy set black guy.

23

Okay.

24

He had on shorts, looked like he had on

25

socks with flip flops and a big shirt.

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Page 178

Okay.

And you've heard,

I'm sure the news

and this is Mike Brown that you're talking about.

No,

Oh, that's right you said you don't want

television; is that right?

I don't want television.

Okay.

But that's the same guy you

thinking?

10

Uh-huh.

11

Okay.

Same spot.

12
13

I didn't know

his name until like I seen it on the internet.

I don't watch the news.

Where were you when you seen them

run?
I was in the car right around

14

here where the light pole is.

15

much, because I know there was a tree in front of us

16

and there was a girl standing next to us because I

17

remember when I got ready to leave,

18

the driveway.

19
20

Uh-huh.

I was like pretty

I turned into

At the time you saw them, were

you facing the police car?

21

Yes.

22

Because you were on your way inside?

23

Yes.

24

To do something

25

Uh-huh.

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Page 179

Okay.

So when you see him running, is he

firing a weapon at that time, you say his gun is

out, the police officer, is he firing at the

individual running?

6
7

8
9

10
11
12
13

No, he couldn't, if he was running with it

down by his side down.


Q

Well, at any time did he change that

position and start firing?


A

He didn't start,

I didn't see him fire,

didn't even hear the gunshots until later.


Q

And what was happening when you heard the

gunshots?
A

When I heard the gunshots and saw him

14

firing his weapon, he was, Michael had stopped, he

15

had stopped.

16

his hands down, Michael turned around and then he

17

started running, he kind of shuffled back and forth

18

a little bit like he was confused or something.

19

then he started running towards my car, he started

20

running back towards us.

21

He threw his hands up and then he put

And

The officer had ran, he was running

22

after him.

He had stopped,

I heard him say get down

23

about two or three times and he kind of veered off

24

to the side a little bit, but he still was aiming

25

his gun at the guy, at Michael.

And he after, he

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Page 180

held his gun out at him, he was aiming the gun at

him, he was telling him to get down.

said, Michael was shuffling back and forth like he

was confused and then he started running and that's

when I started hearing him shoot.

And like I

While he was running toward the officer?

Kind of towards the officer.

I couldn't

be sure if he was running exactly towards the

officer or just trying to run past him.

10
11

direction?

12
13

But he was running in the officer's

He was running pretty much our direction.

The officer was pretty much between us and Michael.

14

And the officer was saying stop or get

16

Get down.

17

And could you hear Michael say anything?

18

I didn't hear him say anything.

15

down?

19

trying to run.

20

down in like a running stance.

He was

He was running and he had his hands

21

Look like he was charging at the officer?

22

I couldn't be sure if he was trying to

23
24
25

charge the officer or run past him.


Q

Okay.

It was unclear to you.

Did he look

like he was threatening the officer?

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Page 181

1
2
3

4
5

Well, like I say,

I couldn't be sure if he

was trying to threaten him, like I said.


Q

I mean, a person, a reasonable person just

looking at it, would you think in your mind?


A

I thought he was trying to charge him at

first because the only thing I kept saying was is he

crazy?

because if somebody is pulling a gun on you, first

thing I would think is to drop down on the ground

10

and not try to look like I'm going to attack 'em,

11

but that was my opinion.

12
13
14

Why don't he just stop instead of running

So it looked to you like he could be

attacking him?
A

He looked like, he looked like he could

15

have been attacking him or the officer could have

16

felt like he was attacking him.

17
18
19

I want you to tell me what your impression

was as you looked at it?


A

I was looking at it, I could not be sure.

20

Like I said the officer, he was like off to the side

21

a little bit and Michael was probably, he was like

22

standing here shuffling back and forth,

23

he just started running.

24

trying to come towards the officer or if he was just

25

trying to run past him.

and he took,

I don't know if he was

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Page 182

Okay.

I couldn't tell you.

All right.

And one last thing and then

I'll turn it over.

his hands up, at what point did he have his hands

up?

When you talked about him having

He put his hands up when he stopped.

kind of like threw his hands up,

this no more.

He

like I can't do

He just threw his hands up and he

10

turned around and he kind of put his hands down and

11

he was like shuffling.

12

while he was shuffling, he was just shuffling back

13

and forth.

14
15
16

He didn't have his arms up

When you say shuffling, can you show me?

I'm sorry.
He was like, he was like.

Just doing like

17

this, shuffling back and forth like he didn't know

18

what else to do.

19

forth.

He was just shuffling back and

(indicating)

20

Where were his hands?

21

He was like to the side,

22

know, hand gestures.

23

anything.

24
25

just doing, you

They wasn't up like this or

They was just down like, you know.


Did he look like he was hit by any of the

bullets?

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Page 183

I didn't see, I couldn't tell that.

You couldn't see any blood or anything?

I didn't hear any of the gunshots until he

4
5

started running.
Q

Okay.

When he started running toward the

officer?

Uh-huh.

So he was doing the shuffling before he

9
10
11

came toward the officer?


A

Yes, right before he started returning, he

started shuffling back and forth.

12

13

shots?

14

Okay.

And that's when you heard the

I heard the gunshots.

He told him, before

15

he shot him he told him to get down again, and

16

Michael had started running.

17

started hearing the gunshots.

18
19
20
21

Okay.

And that's when I

So how many shots do you think you

heard total?
A

I know at least about three or four.

remember hearing three or four shots.

22

Two initially, and you were driving in

23

Two or three.

24

Two or three, Michael is at the car with

25

the officer?

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Page 184

Yeah.

And then Michael runs?

Uh-huh.

And when he turns around and the officer

tells him to get down, that's when you hear more

shots, the three more shots?

When he started running.

When he started running towards the

officer?

10

Yes.

11

Did you hear any more shots?

12

Urn,

I couldn't tell you how many shots I

13

heard, but I remember seeing a blood splatter coming

14

around by his face.

15

At what point did you see that?

16

That was like right before he started

17

stumbling because he kept coming and the officer

18

kept shooting and I remember the blood splatter.

19

seen the spray of blood come out of somewhere around

20

his face and then he started to stumble.

21

Was the officer still shooting then?

22

Urn,

I couldn't tell you if he kept

23

shooting, but I know that when he hit the ground, he

24

wasn't still shooting.

25

Okay.

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Page 185

I didn't see him shoot any more.

I know

he kind of put his gun down.

I could see him

radioing.

shoulder and then he, urn, that's pretty much when I

decided it was time for me to turn around.

I seen him grab like the radio on his

Okay.

So you left at that point?

I was trying to, but it was like two

police SUVs started coming past me after that.

was coming down the street.

They

I was looking to make

10

sure there wasn't anybody coming around me.

So I

11

was trying, because I had my family in the car, I

12

didn't want to get hit by anything, so I was

13

watching.

14

anybody was coming and I seen the two police SUVs

15

coming, and I stopped.

16

watched a little longer and I went around.

I looked in the side mirror to see if

And after they passed by, I

17

I went up this driveway right here

18

and I went around this way because I didn't know,

19

this is the first time I had ever been over there.

20

So I didn't know that this came back out this way.

21

(indicating)

22

Okay.

23

So at that point we didn't know what else

24
25

was going to happen.


and

We stopped at

came out and asked what was going on.

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Page 186

And I'm like, did you hear something?

And we like,

we were like telling

guy out there.

car and we came back.

we was just sitting there for a few minutes to see

what was going to happen.

and started down the street.

the police had just shot a

After that we just got back in the


I didn't get out of the car,

We pulled right back out

And you left?

Yes.

10

So you didn't talk to the police that day?

11

Huh-uh.

12

How did the police know to contact you?

13

I can't remember.

14

If you --

15

I think I called them.

16

You called the police?

17

I called the police and told them that I

18
19
20

had saw the shooting and.


Q

And then you met with them at

or somewhere?

21

Yeah,

I met with them at

22

Okay, all right.

Based on what you saw,

23

did it appear that the officer had to shoot him to

24

protect himself?

25

I don't know.

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Page 187

You don't have an opinion about that?

I don't have an opinion about that because

I couldn't tell whether or not the guy was charging.

I wasn't as close to him as the officer,

close to the scene as the officer and Mike was so,

don't know what he could have been thinking.

don't know if he was thinking that he was trying to

charge him or not.

I wasn't as
I

And when you saw him shoot him, the last

10

shots to be fired when you saw the blood spray, how

11

far did it seem that the officer and Mike Brown were

12

apart from each other?

13

About as far as me and you are.

14

Oh, okay.

15

Uh-huh.

16

And we're like less tan 10 feet apart

Yeah, because he was pretty much staying

17
18

This close?

(indicating)

okay.

19

back away from him.

20

was a little bit bigger than the cop was.

21
22
23

Mike was pretty much bigger, he

MS. WHIRLEY:
That's all I have.

Okay, all right.

Thank you.

Kathi?

MS. ALIZADEH:

Just a couple.

Ma'am, did

24

you ever watch,

I know you don't watch TV, did you

25

ever hear or did anybody ever talk to you about the

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Page 188

autopsy report?

I think I heard about it, but I'm not

really sure what it was about because I didn't try,

I probably felt like I was going to be asked

questions about it eventually, but since I didn't

really, that was like pretty much nothing that I

really witnessed, so I didn't really pay attention

to it.

10

So to this day, do you know where Michael

Brown was shot on his body?

11

I heard that it was in his arm and in his

13

Okay.

14

Everywhere.

15

Okay.

16

Anywhere, and I did see a couple of things

12

17
18

head.
And you heard that where?

on the internet.
Q

Okay.

From the time that Michael Brown

19

turned around and until the time he eventually

20

collapsed in the street.

21

Uh-huh.

22

Can you give me an idea,

23
24
25

I know how close

they ultimately got, but how far did he travel?


A

I couldn't really tell you because it

looked like from where I was standing, where I was

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Page 189

sitting, I'm in the car,

I'm trying to think.

not even exactly sure.

landed was like right about here.

I'm

I think that where his body


(indicating)

Okay.

This is so hard to tell, especially not

being there.

8
9

Do you know about where he was when he

turned around?
A

It was almost to like the end,

I'm not

10

sure if it was the end of this street or what,

11

can't remember.

12
13
14

Okay.

When you say this street, I didn't

see the pointer?


A

He hadn't made it around.

15

it around this corner,

16

within this same stretch right here.

He hadn't made

I know that it had to be


(indicating)

17

Okay.

18

Because I could see him clearly.

19

If you are saying his body was here,

20

that's where he collapsed, so he was someplace west

21

of that and then he ran east?

22

Uh-huh.

23

And you don't have any good idea of like

24

if I keep walking back if you're going to say stop

25

if you want to say how far he ran?

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Page 190

I think he ran a pretty good distance.

Okay.

Urn,

Farther than I can walk back?

I can't think right now.

I don't even

remember how far it was.

Okay.

Only thing I can remember is hearing the

gunshot, seeing him being shot and it was just like,

it was surprising.

Okay.

10

MS. ALIZADEH:

11

MS. WHIRLEY:

12
13
14

I don't have anything else.


Anything else?
You said he had his hands

up for a brief moment?


A

He had his hands up when he stopped, when

15

he was running away from the officer.

16

if he got tired or what, but he threw his hands up.

17
18

19
20

I don't know

Were they like this or


were they like this?
A

(indicating)

Up in the air just like that.

(indicating)

21

Okay.

22

That's it.
With it

23

being a hot, summer afternoon, were your windows,

24

did you have your air on were your windows up?

25

No,

I like my windows down because I have

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Page 191

people in the back seat and I think what happened

was, as a matter of fact I knew I didn't have them

up because, urn,

before noon when we left.

we got there and it wasn't that hot that time of

day.

it wasn't that hot because it was

And one more thing.

8
9

10

On which police car?

Yes.
A

No, it was just sitting there.


MS. ALIZADEH:

14

MS. WHIRLEY:

15

truck?

16

17

19

22

25

Was it a car or was it a

That you saw Michael Brown

standing next to?


A

Yes, it was a car.


MS. WHIRLEY:

truck,
A

23
24

Anyone else?

Oh, it was a car that the officer was in.


MS. WHIRLEY:

20
21

The one that the

officer was in?

13

18

Do

you remember if the sirens was on the police car?

11
12

It was around noon when

I'm talking SUV or was it a car?


It was a car.
MS. WHIRLEY:

When you say car, when I say

It was not an SUV?

No, it was a car.


MS. WHIRLEY:

Okay.

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Page 192

it.
MS. WHIRLEY:

4
5

10

13
14

19

It was not like a SUV like a

Ford Explorer or -A

No, because that's what came past me when

I was sitting there.


MS. WHIRLEY:
A

You know what a SUV is?

Uh-huh.
MS. WHIRLEY:

And it was not a SUV that

you saw Michael Brown standing next to?


A

20

No.
MS. WHIRLEY:

21

police car?

22

23

That's all right.

It was a white police car with the blue

MS. WHIRLEY:

17
18

Okay.

police sign.

15
16

Yeah.

No.
MS. WHIRLEY:

11
12

You mean make and model?


MS. WHIRLEY:

8
9

Do you know what kind of car

it was?

6
7

Because I remember him getting up out of

When he was talking at the

No.
MS. WHIRLEY:

Okay.

24

You said he had

25

trouble getting out of the car, the police officer,

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Page 193

can you describe what you saw?

He was just looking like he was, he had

opened the door and was trying to get out of the

car.

might have been disoriented.

going on,

All I know is he looked like he was coming out of

the car and he got up and yeah, he did close the

door behind him and he took off running.

I didn't know what was going on,

I don't know what was

I couldn't tell you what was happening.

10
11

ever see anybody else by the car?


A

No.

The only other people that I was

13

looking,

14

watching everything.

15

17

All right.
Did you

12

16

I figure he

I seen were pretty much just bystanders and

MS. WHIRLEY:

That concludes the testimony

of
(End of the testimony of

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Page 194

State of Missouri

4
5

SS.

County of St. Louis


I,

a Licensed Certified Court

Reporter by the Supreme Court in and for the State

of Missouri, duly commissioned, qualified and

authorized to administer oaths and to certify to

depositions, do hereby certify that pursuant to

10

Notice in the civil cause now pending and

11

undetermined in the County of St. Louis, State of

12

Missouri.

13

The said witness, being of sound mind and being

14

by the grand jury first carefully examined and duly

15

cautioned and sworn to testify to the truth, the

16

whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the case

17

aforesaid, thereupon testified as is shown in the

18

foregoing transcript, said testimony being by me

19

reported in shorthand and caused to be transcribed

20

into typewriting, and that the foregoing page

21

correctly sets forth the testimony of the

22

aforementioned witness, together with the questions

23

propounded by counsel and grand jurors thereto, and

24

is in all respects a full,

25

complete transcript of the questions propounded to

true,

correct and

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Page 195

1
2

and the answers given by said witness.


I further certify that the foregoing pages

contain a true and accurate reproduction of the

proceedings.

I further certify that I am not of counselor

attorney for either of the parties to said suit, not

related to nor interested in any of the parties or

their attorneys.

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Page 196

COURT MEMO

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3
4

State of Missouri vs. Darren Wilson

6
7

CERTIFICATE OF OFFICER AND

STATEMENT OF DEPOSITION CHARGES

10
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DEPOSITION OF Grand Jury, Volume XI

12
13

10/7/2014

14

Name and address of person or firm having custody of

15

the original transcript:

16
17

St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney's Office

18

100 S. Central Ave.

19

Clayton, MO 63105

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Page 197

ORIGINAL TRANSCRIPT TAXED IN FAVOR OF:

St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney's Office

100 S. Central Ave., 2nd Floor

Clayton, MO 63105

Total:

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Page 198

Upon delivery of transcripts, the above

charges had not been paid.

that all charges will be paid in the normal course

of business.

GORE PERRY GATEWAY & LIPA REPORTING COMPANY

515 Olive street, Suite 700

st. Louis, Missouri 63101

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set

STATEMENT OF DEPOSITION CHARGES

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my hand and seal on this

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Commission expires

It is anticipated

day of

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Notary Public

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Transcript of: Grand Jury, Volume XII


Date: October 13, 2014

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State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XII


October 13, 2014
Page 1

STATE OF MISSOURI

VS.

DARREN WILSON

GRAND JURY

October 13, 2014

VOLUME XII

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October 13, 2014
Page 2

IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF ST. LOUIS COUNTY

STATE OF MISSOURI

STATE OF MISSOURI

5
6

vs.

DARREN WILSON

10
11

12

The following is a hearing before the Grand

13

Jury of St. Louis County, at the offices of St.

14

Louis County Prosecuting Attorney's Office, 100

15

South Central Avenue, in the City of Clayton, State

16

of Missouri, on the 13th day of October, 2014,

17

before

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October 13, 2014
Page 3

APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:

2
3

FOR THE STATE:

Ms. Kathi Alizadeh & Ms. Sheila Whirley

Assistant Prosecuting Attorneys for St. Louis

County

100 South Central Avenue, 2nd Floor

Clayton, MO 63105

(314)

615-2600

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Grand Jury, Volume XII


October 13, 2014
Page 5

GRAND JURY HEARING VOLUME XII

1
2

MS. ALIZADEH:

Good morning.

(Everyone says good morning.)

MS. ALIZADEH:

Let's see, Monday,

October 13th, at 8:38 a.m.

with the prosecutor's office, present is Sheila

Whirley, all 12 grand jurors are present, as is


, the court reporter.

10

This is Kathi Alizadeh

He's taking down what is

being said and recording, audio recording.

11

So for today, the first witness, let me

12

back up a little bit and talk about scheduling.

13

There was a question brought up,

14

have been during a break we had last week about

15

whether or not three days a week was helpful or if

16

it was not very productive.

17

have talked about it, as well as with some of our

18

investigators.

19

I think it might

And so Sheila and I

You know, as I mentioned to you that some

20

of these people are reluctant to come in and that

21

means going out and serving them subpoenas and even

22

then, that's not a guarantee they're going to show

23

up.

24
25

We have been lucky so far.

We have been

able to get the people in, but, you know, every day

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is going to be a challenge.

first of all we felt that it was, it was going to be

problematic for us to try to corral or wrangle up

enough people to fill three days of your time.

We talked about it and

Neither Sheila nor I wants you sitting

here.

lives and from your jobs and it is just really wrong

for us to waste your time for you to sit here for

two hours when we don't have anything scheduled for

10

I know you have taken out from your personal

you or anything to put on.

11

I think the two day a week is going to be

12

better, hopefully we will use that time

13

productively.

14

Another reason for it is because we have

15

doing the transcripts and we need those done

16

as quickly as possible, because there's another

17

investigation going on, that as you know, there's a

18

federal investigation that's kind of parallel to

19

ours.

20

room with us, he goes home and he works to try to

21

transcribe everything that is going on.

22

me, he mentioned the other day one hour of testimony

23

may take him three hours to transcribe.

24
25

And

doesn't just work when he's in the

And news to

He's working diligently to try to get


these transcripts out.

And when we have back to

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Page 7

back days, he's not able to work on the transcripts

and the three days a week, we're finding he's not

able to keep up with the transcripts the way we need

them.

Another reason is, you know, once this

case is concluded and given to you for your

deliberation, once, assuming you arrive at a

decision, we don't want to have to delay that

decision for two or three weeks while we're waiting

10
11

for the transcripts to be done.


So he's,

, trying to do those as we

12

go so we can keep up on those.

13

was another reason why the two day a week would be

14

better for just our purposes and getting this done

15

efficiently and as quickly as possible.

16

So we felt that that

So I think the word went out to you last

17

week after we canceled Thursday, that we also are

18

canceling tomorrow, but we do have witnesses lined

19

up for all day today, assuming they show up and then

20

we have witnesses lined up for all day Thursday.

21

Including, you know, we're going to hear statements

22

when we're not having witnesses boom, boom, boom

23

there will be times that you are listening to

24

statements of witnesses that we anticipate that are

25

going to be called.

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Page 8

1
2

So with that being said, thank you for,


did they already do the rest of October?

MS. WHIRLEY:

MS. ALIZADEH:

How far, the 16th?


Today, this week is today

and Thursday.

I don't know if we have the next two

weeks actually written in stone.

I've got a calendar in my office, but is that

completed for the month.

9
10

So if you guys,

No jury duty on the 30th.


We have it up through the 28th, that's three days.

11

We need to talk about it.

12

We need to confirm it.

13

MS. ALIZADEH:

Yeah, why don't you all

14

keep in mind two days a week is going to be the best

15

way to go during your lunch break, and something you

16

can kind of talk about your schedules and redo the

17

calendar as you have.

18

I will tell you that whatever days you

19

pick, like I said, we are going to work with those.

20

Doesn't matter to me, however, I do believe that it

21

can be helpful for us if at least one of those days

22

at least till 5:00.

23

witnesses who have said, you know, well, I can't be

24

here till 4:00 because my kids off the bus and blah,

25

blah, blah.

We've found that there are

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October 13, 2014
Page 9

We understand that these people are

witnesses, you know.

may feel now is at the wrong place at the wrong

time.

that are cooperative, to work with them if they

have, you know, work or child issues that, you know,

we'll get you here, when does your son get off the

bus.

up at 3:00, get you here at 3:30 that way we can get

10

They happen to be, what they

So, I'm trying my best, especially the ones

Okay.

How about if we have the cab pick you

some of these people on.

11

So when you do your schedule, I know that

12

a lot of these days you have a 2:30 cutoff because

13

of work and that's fine, but if there is a day

14

during the week that you can go till 5:00, that

15

might be a good second day for us because then we

16

can maybe accommodate some witnesses that need to

17

work later.

18
19

Is there anything else that anybody had to


bring up or talk about before we get started?

20
21
22

All right.
first

So today we are going to hear


We heard from his wife

last Tuesday.

And he was here

23

with her, we didn't have time to get to him.

You've

24

already heard his recorded statement so we will call

25

him as our first witness.

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October 13, 2014
Page 10

We also have

, she has a

couple of statements that we will play before she

testifies.

minutes long, but the other one I have to tell you

we just got because it was the result of a federal

interview.

One of them is very brief, like three

I can't remember if it was done by the FBI

or Department of Justice, but we have that, we have

the recording of that, but I don't have a transcript

10

of that.

11

that statement before she testifies.

12

So we'll just listen to the recording of

And then we have a witness that's

13

scheduled to be here at 1:00 in the afternoon.

14

name is

15

statements as well.

16

His

He's made a number of

So after

testifies, we'll

17

go on with the statements, recording statement for

18

the next witness, all right.

19
20
21
22
23
24
25

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October 13, 2014
Page 11

of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to

testify the truth, the whole truth,

nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid,

deposes and says in reply to oral

interrogatories, propounded as follows,

10
11

12

13
14

to-wit:

EXAMINATION
THE WITNESS:

and

I want to be sure that I

understood what it was.

BY MS. ALIZADEH:
Would you state your name and spell it for

the court reporter, please?

A
please,

It is one
in

15

Mr.

, good morning.

16

Good morning.

17

We've met before.

I'm Kathi Alizadeh and

18

you know that I'm one of the prosecuting attorneys

19

who is putting on the grand jury investigation with

20

Sheila Whirley as well,

right?

21

Yes.

22

And I know you were here last week and you

23

and your wife came in, and I apologize that we

24

didn't have time to get to you, but you were good

25

enough to come in today.

So we will get you out of

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October 13, 2014
Page 12

here as soon as we can, okay?

Sure.

The microphone that's in front of you,

does not amplify your voice.

keep your voice up so we can hear you all the way

back here.

Okay.

Most people tend to tell me to tone

it down because I project.

will be a problem.

10

So just make sure you

Okay.

So I don't think that

You've got a nice voice there,

11

everybody will raise their hand and let you know if

12

they can't hear you or need you to repeat something.

13

Sir, how old are you?

14

15

And are you married?

16

Yes,

17

Who are you married to?

18

19

20
21

I am.

And do you and

have any children

together?
A

We have,

23

Okay.

24

They're

25

What is her name?

22
So what is your biological child?

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October 13, 2014
Page 13

There's

And those are your step or biological?

Those are my biological.

is my stepdaughter.

5
6

9
10

Okay.

You and

13
14
15
16
17
18

, and who is the

other daughter?
and she's our youngest and

11
12

So you --

is my stepdaughter.
Q

And are

, are they both

adults or are they minors?


A

They are all adults.

currently

The youngest is

years old.
And are you familiar with the Canfield

Green Apartment Complex?


A

Only that I've ridden out there a couple

19

of occasions with the family.

20

lives there.

21

So you don't have live in the complex?

22

No,

23

And none of your family lives in the

24
25

has a friend who

I live in north St. Louis.

complex, correct?
A

No, they do not.

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Grand Jury, Volume XII


October 13, 2014
Page 14

Okay.

And so do you recall the morning of

August 9th of this year?

The day of the shooting?

Yes.

Yes, I do.

Was there anything special or unusual

7
8

about that morning?


A

We were taking

And

10

as we were driving down Canfield toward the complex,

11

we heard what first sounded like overly loud

12

fireworks.

13

and blue lights.

And we looked up, saw the flashing red

14

At this point I noticed the officer

15

and a large black man, about my size, who appeared

16

to be pointing a gun.

17

shootout at the time, I believe they were having a

18

shootout.

19

pointing in our direction and I was afraid for my

20

family at the time.

believe they were having a

And the young black man appeared to be

21

Okay.

Let me stop you.

22

Uh-huh.

23

And we're going to start --

24

Sure.

25

-- at the very beginning.

So you were

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October 13, 2014
Page 15

going into the complex, do you remember what time,

approximately, what time of day it was?

It was bright and sunny, that's all I can

remember.

Do you remember this being a Saturday?

Uh, at this point, no,

I don't remember

what day of the week it was.

Okay.

My wife's

10

And who was driving?

11

My wife.

12

Where were you in the car?

13

Front passenger.

14

Were there any other people in the van

15
16
17

And so were you in a vehicle?

with you?
and I believe two of the

grandchildren, but I don't recall which two.

18

Are the grandchildren, are they minors?

19

They are minors.

Okay.

The oldest one is

20
21

And so you said you were coming

22

into the complex, was

23

complex?

driving into the

24

Yes, she was.

We were in traffic.

25

And do you remember,

I'm going to direct

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October 13, 2014
Page 16

your attention to Grand Jury Exhibit Number 25,

which is an aerial view of the streets and buildings

that comprise the complex?

Which way is Florissant?

So what I'm going to tell you is that this

is north, up is north?

Okay.

And so if you were to see that this is

9
10

Canfield Drive that goes through the complex, if you


continue on here you are going to West Florissant?

11
12

Okay, okay.

We were coming from

Florissant down the drive.

13

Okay.

14

Our destination was this parking area back

15

here behind one of these two houses.

16

up from the back, so I'm not sure which house it is,

17

but

18

(indicating)

19

We always pull

lives in one of these houses.

Here, let me have you,

let me show you

20

here, this is a laser pointer.

So instead of having

21

you stretch yourself, you can use that?

22

Okay, sure.

23

So you were in the van and you were coming

24
25

east on Canfield?
A

Yeah.

This curve here is, we were coming,

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Page 17

we were on this curve when we heard the first shots,

which called our attention to it.

scanning the distance down the hill here looking for

the source of the, looking for the source of the

sound.

Okay.

And we began

Now, let me tell you and remind you

that I know that you had other people in your

vehicle.

Yes.

10

And I know they all saw things as well.

11

Uh-huh.

12

What is important is that you testify

13

about what you saw.

14

Right.

15

And what you heard and observed as opposed

16

to if maybe you and your wife?

17

Right.

18

Or your daughters talked about this later

19

and they talked about what they saw.

20

I understand.

21

You're saying we did this and we were

22

scanning the area, what is important is what you

23

did.

24

Right.

25

Okay.

So as the vehicle comes to this

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October 13, 2014
Page 18

bend, which is at the northwest corner of the map,

right around Coppercreek Road, you said that having

heard what you believed to be fireworks?

Right.

They sounded a little too loud for

fireworks.

Okay.

And looking down further down the street,

8
9

10

I saw the lights from the squad car.


Q

Okay.

So let me stop you.

Get some

details before we get to that point.

11

All right.

12

Were your van windows up or down or do you

13
14

recall?
A

Urn, a couple of inches.

I like the fresh

15

air, but I don't like the wind blowing in my ear

16

when we drive.

17

three inches.

18
19
20
21

Okay.

It is usually cracked two or

Do you recall would you of had the

radio on or music playing?


A

No radio, but I had four adults and two

children in the car

22

There was a lot of noise.

23

A lot of chatter?

24

Yes.

25

Okay.

So, and then how is your hearing,

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October 13, 2014
Page 19

Mr.

My hearing is pretty good.

What about eyesight, do you wear glasses?

I do not wearing glasses.

reading, uh,

when we're driving.

I have trouble reading street signs

Okay.

But other than that,

9
10

problem.

I have trouble

I don't have any

I can read, uh, united we fall,

divided we

united we stand, divided we fall is kind of fuzzy

l I o n the seal.
12

Okay.

13

I can see the MDCCXX, the roman numerals

14

at the bottom.

15

I don't wear glasses.

Okay.

So now, as you come around the bend

16

and you said that you looked down,

kind of scan down

17

Canfield, which at that point as you are coming

18

around is kind of a straight shot, correct?

19

Right.

20

And you see, you said you see a squad car?

21

Now,

do not,

still don't know for

22

sure.

23

statement, whether it was a car or an SUV.

24

pay that much attention to the vehicle, but I saw

25

the lights.

didn't recall when I

gave my first
I didn't

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Page 20

1
2

Okay.

So lights meaning like the light

bar on top of the car?

Right, the red and blues.

You saw those were going off?

Yes.

And what did you see as far as people at

and/or around the vehicle, please vehicle?

Urn,

I saw people, residents and citizens

coming from various different directions.

10

officer out of his vehicle,

11

his vehicle.

12

already, uh, several feet from his vehicle.

13

I saw the

I didn't see him exit

When I first seen the officer, he was

Okay.

So can you use the pointer and

14

point to where you believe you first saw the

15

vehicle, not where you were, but where was the

16

police vehicle?

17

There's an image of a vehicle on your map

18

here and it is near that one, it is near this side

19

road here in between this one and this side road

20

here.

(indicating)

21
22
23
24
25

It was in this area here.


(indicating)
Q

Okay.

So was the vehicle when you first

observed it, was it moving or was it stationary?


A

Stationary.

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October 13, 2014
Page 21

Okay.

No,

Okay.

Did you ever see it move after

that?
I didn't.
So when you came around, you said

you saw the officer and he was already out of the

vehicle?
A

car?

10

Yes.

11

So in what directional was he away from

12

the car?

13

He was down the street because he was

14

moving down the road away from his vehicle.

15

officer was near the yellow line.

16

The

The vehicle was about 45 degrees from

17

the curb and the officer was out near the yellow

18

line moving down the road away from the vehicle.

19

Okay.

So when you say the vehicle was

20

about 45 degrees away from the curb, do you mean

21

that the vehicle was angled or do you mean that it

22

was,

23

I don't understand?
A

It had been like it had been pulled in and

24

the right front wheel was at the curb and the

25

vehicle was about 45 degrees,

like it had been

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Page 22

parked at an angle.

Okay.

So it wasn't in the lane as if, you

know,

would be going straight down the lane?

if you were driving down that street, you

You will have to see people parked at an

angle on Sundays out in front of churches, it was at

an angle by the curb.

Was the officer's vehicle blocking the

road so that other vehicles could not go past?

10

Uh

11

Or do you know?

I don't think it was blocking.

12

Don't guess if you don't

know.

13

I'm not

14

positive, but I don't believe it was blocking the

15

road.

16
17

It was closer to the curb.

Okay.

So you said when you first saw the

officer, he was, his back was toward you?

18

Yes.

19

And he was moving away from you?

20

He was moving away from us toward the guy

21

that he was shooting at.

I first seen the officer,

22

the officer was between me and the guy he was

23

shooting at.

24

and guy that he was,

25

call the other guy.

The officer was facing the other guy


I'm sorry,

I don't know what to

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October 13, 2014
Page 23

We now know that the person who died was

named Michael Brown.

Okay.

So it is okay

Mr. Brown.

And just to be clear, so you didn't know

Mr. Brown before that day?

No,

And is that the bigger black gentleman

10

I did not.

that you described having seen?

11

Yes, the one that was shot.

12

Okay.

13

So let's back up for a second so

when you see the officer.

14

Uh-huh.

15

You said he's a ways away from the car

16

with his back towards you and he's moving away from

17

you.

18

Yes.

19

So are you good at distances?

20

Not that good.

21

Okay.

22

Can you give me an idea how many

feet or car lengths or a football field?

23

A car length, maybe two, between them or

24

between us.

25

Between the officer's vehicle and where

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Page 24

you first saw the officer you said he was aways from

his car?

Not more than a car length from his

vehicle.

Okay.

A couple of strides.

And when you say he was moving away from

you, can you describe how he was moving?

running, was he walking, was he walking quickly,

10

Was he

jogging?

11

Uh, a trot, a brisk trot.

12

Did you see at that time if he had a gun

13
14
15
16

in his hand?
A

I couldn't see what he had in his hands,

his back was to me.


Q

Okay.

And so, now as you look and you

17

said you saw the officer, did you also, when you

18

first looked, could you also see Michael Brown?

19

Yes, my first,

that was my first view of

20

Michael Brown.

He was in direct line just past the

21

officer and he was pointing in our direction.

22

Okay.

23

Yes, ma'am.

24

Okay.

25

So he was facing in this direction?

So the first time you saw him, you

saw his front?

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Yes.

Okay.

No,

Okay.

He appeared to be pointing directly at the

You never saw the back of him?

I did not.

vehicle we were in, he was pointing at the officer

in the officer's direction and because of our point

of view, he appeared to be pointing at us.

10
11

12
13

Okay.

Did you see anything in his hands

or anything that he was doing with his hands?


A

I believe I saw a flash of light off of

something.
Q

Okay.

And now you had mentioned earlier,

14

and I believe in your statement as well, you said at

15

first you thought he had a gun?

16

Yes, that was my belief.

17

So that was an impression you got --

18

Yeah,

19
20

I was scared the bullets were going

to start coming through the windshield.


Q

Now,

let's back up just a bit.

When you

21

were coming around that bend and you heard what you

22

now know are gunshots, how many shots do you think

23

you heard?

24

Three or four.

25

Okay.

And then when you saw,

you first

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saw the officer, did you see him after you heard the

gunshots?

After.

After, okay.

So when you saw the officer

and he's moving away from you,

firing a weapon as he was moving away from you?

could you tell was he

Uh, the next shot I heard was after

Michael Brown started running, the officer fired and

saw Michael Brown stagger and fling his arms out.

10

At which point he turned around and came back toward

11

the officer.

12

13

Okay.

Now,

let's back up.

When you first

see Michael Brown, he's facing the officer?

14

Yes.

15

And you said it appeared that he was

16

pointing?

17

He looked like he was pointing at us,

18

Can you stand up and show the grand jurors

19

how you saw what it looked like he was doing?

20

He's about my size, young black guy and he

21

looked like he was pointing.

22

finger or two,

23

but I thought I saw a glint.

24

gun.

25

yes.

Okay.

I can't tell one

I can't tell what he had in his hand,


I believe it was a

Now, when you saw him, when you

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first saw him, was he moving or was he standing

still or standing in place?

I'm not certain.

Okay.

As you then come around the bend

and you see this, describe for me, you can sit down,

we'll go through this again step by step, but

describe for me what you see next happened?

Well, after seeing him and the officer and

seeing him point and getting this impression that he

10

was going to start shooting in our direction, uh,

11

like that, Mr. Brown spun and started to run away

12

down the street going this direction.

13
14
15

Okay.

So that would be east down

Canfield?
A

Yes, down Canfield away from Florissant

16

and away from our vehicle.

17

officer fired one shot and I saw Mr. Brown stagger.

18

Okay.

At which point the

Let's back up now then.

You had

19

said when you saw the officer he was, his back was

20

to you, he's moving ago way from

21
22

Moving away from us, moving toward

Mr. Brown.

23

And you said he was near the yellow line?

24

Yes.

25

Where was Michael Brown standing when you

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first saw him?

Was he in the street, was he in the

grass?

Out in the middle of the street.

Okay.

And what was the distance when you

first saw them between Michael Brown and the

officer?

Uh, perhaps the length of this courtroom.

Okay.

From me to the flag.

10

Okay.

11

15, 20 feet.

12

Okay.

13

So maybe

And so then you say you saw Michael

Brown, he was pointing when you first saw him?


A

Q
A

18

Down the street.

Q
A

side of
22

the center of the street that's turning, so, he was

23

running straight away from us.

24
25

Okay.

When you saw him, did you notice

how he was dressed, and I mean, Michael Brown, did

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you pay any attention?

Blue jeans, white T-shirt, tennis shoes.

And so, and you said you thought you saw a

glint in his hand, but did you see anything once he

turned around and was running, did you notice

anything in his hands?

I thought I saw him throw something or

lose something when the officer wounded him and he,

when he was wounded, he flung his arms out and spun

10

back around.

11

flung from his hands.

12

I gave my original statement.

13

impression that I got that I thought he mayor may

14

not have lost what he had in his hand.

15
16

And I thought something might have

Okay.

I wasn't certain at the time


This was an

Could you tell when you first saw

Michael Brown, did he have a hat on?

17

I don't remember a hat at all.

18

Okay.

And so you say that he was running

19

away from the officer and the officer was, you said

20

a fast trot,

I think?

21

A trot or a jog.

22

A jog?

23

He was trying to close the distance.

24

And when the officer was running, after

25

Michael Brown spun around and started to run east

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Page 30

down Canfield Drive, did the officer fire at him?

Yes.

And then you said, you had said something

about Michael Brown being wounded.

Yeah, when Mr. Brown was running away from

the officer, one shot was fired.

Mr. Brown

staggered a little to the left and his arms went

out.

leg or low on the left side and he spun around.

It looked to me like he was shot in the left

10

Did you see any blood coming from him?

11

No,

12

So it was just by the way he reacted that

13

I wasn't close enough to see blood.

you thought he was shot?

14

The way his body jerked.

15

Okay.

And so you say he spun around, so

16

when he spun around, was he facing the officer at

17

that point?

18

He spun 180 degrees and came back toward

19

the officer.

20

21

All right.

When you say he came back

toward the officer?

22

Several steps back toward the officer.

23

Okay.

24
25

Now, can you stand up again, sorry,

up down, up down.
A

That's okay.

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Page 31

It is like church.

It's all right.

So can you describe for me when you say he

spun around and he flung his hands out.

Yeah.

Show the grand jurors what you mean by

Okay.

7
8

that?
Pardon me.

His left leg kind of

jerked a little and his arms went out as he was

10

running.

He kind of, and he came about.

11

(indicating)

12

Okay.

13

He continued the turn.

14

Now,

you're doing something with your

15

hands,

16

His arms came down.

17

Okay.

18

After he completed, after he completed his

19

is that what he was doing?

turn and recovered his balance, his arms came down.

20

Okay.

21

And he proceeded to take several steps

22
23
24
25

toward the officer with his arms down.


Q

Okay.

And did you,

so at this point when

you say down, do you mean at his side?


A

I mean hanging loosely at his sides.

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Page 32

And the steps that he took toward the

officer, can you describe how he was doing that,

walking, walking quickly, running?

Walking.

Walking?

Yeah.

And about how many steps did he take

toward the officer?

He got three, maybe four steps.

10

From where he had turned around?

11

Yes, he had gotten three, maybe four

12

steps.

13

Was the officer still going toward him?

14

Yes, they were still closing the distance.

15

Okay.

16
17

Did you hear anybody saying

anything at all during this time?


A

At this point lots of bystanders had

18

started screaming, but I couldn't make out what they

19

were saying.

20

Okay.

Could you tell if there was any,

21

whether the officer or Michael Brown was saying

22

anything?

23

I couldn't hear them.

24

Okay.

25

anything,

Could you tell if they were saying

like did you see?

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Page 33

I didn't,

I didn't get any impression.

could hear a couple of women screaming, you always

get somebody's mother or sister or cousin screaming

at the police, even if nobody gets shot, there is

always somebody screaming.

Okay.

So then as you, are you still

watching this whole time or were you ever like

ducking down in the van because you thought maybe

you were going to get shot at?

10

Uh,

I was sitting as low as my seat belt

11

would allow me to.

12

of a

13

belt on.

14

I wasn't,

I was in a bucket seat


with the seat

I couldn't go,

I couldn't move very far.

So from the time you came around that

15

bend, did you watch the entire time or was there a

16

time when you looked away or looked down to where

17

you might have missed something?

18

I was intent on the shootout or what I

19

believe, what I believed to be a shootout in front

20

of me because I was worried about stray bullets

21

coming through the windshield.

22

So when you saw Michael Brown, he had

23

turned around now and his hands were down at his

24

side?

25

Down at his sides.

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Page 34

1
2

And he's taking a few steps toward the

officer?

Yes.

What happens then?

The officer unloaded on him.

And what do you mean by that?

I mean, he fired four or five shots in

8
9

rapid succession.
Q

He gunned him down.

And what did you, did you see, what did

10

you see Michael Brown doing as the officer was

11

firing his weapon?

12

Fall.

13

In what direction did he fall?

14

Uh, he crumpled, he crumpled in, well, on

15

the map he would have crumpled to the north, but

16

basically he crumpled to his right going this way

17

and fell and collapsed.

18
19

Was he in the street or in the grass or on

the sidewalk?

20

He was still in the street.

21

In the street.

22
23

Did he fall forward or on

his side?
A

He crumpled to the right and I believe he

24

landed on his back, but he appeared, it looked like

25

his right leg gave out.

He crumpled to the right

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Page 35

and fell away from the officer who at this point was

a little more to one side of him.

Okay.

clarified yet.

5
6

Now, let me ask something I haven't

When you were coming around the bend


and

driving, correct?

Uh-huh.

Did you all, did she continue to drive as

this was going on?

10

No, no.

11

Did she stop the

12

No, we saw, we saw the police and the

13

crowd and we turned onto, excuse me, we turned onto

14

this side road here and drove around the back to

15

house.

I still can't remember which one of

16

these two houses it is, but we drove around to avoid

17

the scene.
Q

Okay.

20

Right.

21

You drove around Coppercreek Road, all the

18

19

22

So you took a left onto Coppercreek

Road?

way to Stonefield Road?

23

Uh-huh.

24

All right.

25

So fair to say then that you

never got farther east than this intersection?

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Page 36

Right.

And was never more than, was never

any closer than two blocks from the shooting.

Okay.

Like I said, I wasn't close enough to see

any blood or to hear any verbal exchange between.

Okay.

So after you saw Michael Brown

collapse you said and he landed in the street.

Uh-huh.

At that point, were you already on

10

Coppercreek Court or

11

That's the point where we were looking for

12

somewhere to turn off because we were like, we got

13

to get out of here.

14

bend.

Traffic had held us up at this

15

So there were other cars?

16

The street was blocked all the way down to

17

this point here.

18

traffic.

19

The whole street was lined with

So there were other cars in front of your

21

Yes, we were caught in traffic.

22

And so I'm guessing, or I shouldn't guess,

20

van?

23

so when you were driving down here, did you

24

immediately turn or was there a time where you were

25

stuck in traffic or stopped in the road?

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Page 37

We turned, we turned a few seconds after

Mr. Brown hit the street, after he collapsed because

as soon as he collapsed, we started looking for an

exit.

Okay.

As you went left onto Coppercreek

Road and traveled in this direction north and then

east,

there on Canfield Drive?

could you see any more what was going on over

Uh,

didn't have any feel,

didn't have

10

any clear line of sight.

11

walking to and from,

12

from every different direction, but I couldn't see

13

anything beyond that.

14
15

We saw people running and

and we saw police cars coming

From the time you came around this bend

and you said you saw the officer's car?

16

Uh-huh.

17

know you said police came later, but was

18

that the only police car that you saw when you came

19

around the bend?

20

That is the only car that I

21

Okay.

22

observed.

And then you said you saw an

officer, was he in uniform?

23

Yes.

24

And do you know any Ferguson police

25

officers?

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Page 38

No,

I don't.

So did you see any other uniformed

officers at that time when you first looked down the

street?

Were there other officers with him?

I don't remember.

Okay.

I don't recall.

My attention was focused

on where the shots were coming from.

And so when you say you saw Michael Brown

10

turn around or now, you see him turn actually twice,

11

correct?

12

officer?

13

You first see him, he's looking toward the

Right, he turned to run and he spun back

14

around when he was wounded or like,

15

was,

16

running.

17

I still think he

I still think he was wounded when he was

How, from the time he first turned around

18

and ran away from the officer until he stopped and

19

spun around.

20

Uh-huh.

22

time?

23

50 feet maybe.

24

Okay.

25

Give or take a little bit.

I'm two blocks

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Page 39

1
2

up the street.
Q

I'd say about 50 feet.

Now, you have demonstrated for us that

when he was, when Michael Brown was running away,

and you said he kind of?

Staggered.

Staggered and his arms flung up and you

demonstrated that.

Uh-huh.

Can you just stand up and put your arms in

10

that position so I can describe it?

11

Sure.

12

Let me turn around.

13

Okay.

14

Put your arms up the way he had them?

15

Okay.

16

So your left arm is extended away from

17

The way the flung out,

yes.

your body at about a 45 degree angle?

18

Down and out.

19

Down and out?

20

Yes, and the right arm was higher,

21
22
23
24
25

shoulder level as he spun.


Q

Okay.

And, okay, thank you.

And then

when he spun around, what did his hand do?


A

As he came about to face us again, his

arms came down to his sides and hung loosely at his

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Page 40

sides.

All right.

Did you ever see Michael Brown

clutching his torso or have his hands anywhere in

his mid section after he turned around and faced the

officer?

Not that I recall.

Did you ever see Michael Brown put his

hands up?

No,

10

Never saw his hands up like that?

11

Never saw his hands up.

12

Other than the way you have demonstrated?

13

Only when he flung them out in spinning

14
15

around.

I never saw him put his hand up.

16
17

20

Okay.
MS. ALIZADEH:

questions?

18
19

I never saw his arms up.

I'm out of questions,


MS. WHIRLEY:

Sheila, do you have any


thanks.

Okay.

(By Ms. Whirley)

So you first saw the

officer when he was out of his vehicle,

correct?

21

Yes.

22

So you did not see any tussling or

23

altercation at the police car with Michael Brown?

24

No.

25

All right.

Urn,

can you describe the

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Page 41

officer's demeanor when you first saw him and by

that I mean,

know,

was he looking like when you first saw him?

can you show us what he was doing?

like did he have a gun pointed, was he, what

When I first saw him,

I was looking at his

back as he was walking away from me or trotting,

toward Mr. Brown.

Okay.

And from behind, that's what you

could see, could you see his hands from behind, from

10

his behind,

11

12

I mean, his behind was facing

They looked like they were up.

He

probably had his, probably had his gun in his hands.

13

It appeared --

14

I couldn't see the gun.

15

You

They looked like

they were up.

16

As if he was holding a gun and pointing a

18

Yes.

19

And just to be clear, the officer was

17

gun?

20

shooting at Michael Brown when he was running away

21

from the officer?

22

One shot.

23

One shot.

24
25

And you think that shot

actually struck him?


A

The way he staggered,

I do believe it

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Page 42

struck him.

But you couldn't tell where?

No.

Okay.

And as Michael Brown was running

away,

running away, because you said?

it appeared he had a gun in his hand as he was

saw,

saw what I

thought was something

fly from his hand when he spun, but it was an

impression I

got and since my original statement to

10

the police,

11

the distance, but I got the impression that

12

something flew out of his hand when he was struck

13

and spun around.

14
15
16
17
18
19

I said that I wasn't certain because of

Okay.

So while he's running away,

is he

facing you or not?


A

His back, because he was running almost

directly away from us down the road.


Q

Okay.

So both the officers back and his

back was to you as they were running away?

20

Yes.

21

And the officer was closest to you?

22

Right.

23

But it looked like to you that from the

24
25

back, Michael Brown had a weapon?


A

Urn,

I didn't see anything in his hands

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Page 43

when he was running.

Okay.

I saw what I thought was something fly

from his hand when he spun.

Okay.

And I saw a glint off of something in his

hand when I first saw him because the first time I

laid eyes on Mr. Brown, he was pointing at us.

I thought I saw a glint off of something in his

10
11

And

hand.
Q

Okay.

All right.

So as he ran and the

12

officer fired a shot, he thought he was hit, he

13

staggered?

14

Yes.

15

He turned around, as you demonstrated for

16

us how he turned around.

17

Yes.

18

So once he turned around and he was

19

walking towards the officer, you said a few steps,

20

was he staggering still?

21
22

He did not seem to be staggering.

He was

walking fairly well.

23

Okay.

24

staggering?

25

He no longer seemed to be

He wasn't moving very rapidly, he was

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Page 44

1
2
3
4

walking slow.
Q

At a much more normal walk.

Can you kind of show us what you mean,

please?
A

After he spun around and walked back

toward the officer, it cars more of a,

of just, you know, walking across the room.

just walking like, you know,

the officer.

Not like he was injured or anything?

10

It was a fairly normal walk.

11

Okay.

12

It did not appear that he was --

13

Okay.

14

officer said what?


Open fire.

16

Open fire.

Yes.

19

Okay.

22
23

And that's when Michael Brown

went down?

18

21

I'm walking back toward

As he's walking, that is when the

20

It was

(indicating)

15

17

it was more

Did it appear to you that Michael

Brown was charging the officer?


A

I didn't get the impression of a charge

because it wasn't fast enough to be a charge.


Q

Okay.

Did it appear to you that the

24

officer had to shoot Michael Brown in order to

25

protect himself?

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Page 45

I wouldn't say had to.

At the time I was

relieved because I believed at the time,

I still

stand by my original statement, but my impression at

the time was that it was a shoot out between the

officer and Mr. Brown in a residential neighborhood

surrounded by bystanders who were all stupidly

running toward a gun fight.


Q

But you never saw Michael Brown fire a

10

I never saw him fire anything.

11

So it was just your assumption that it was

12

a gunfight?

13

Right.

14

Okay.

15

opened fire,

16

protect himself in your opinion?

17

gun?

Urn,

So my question is, when the officer

did it appear that he had to do that to

I couldn't see Mr. Brown's hands and I

18

wasn't sure if he lost the weapon, if there was a

19

weapon.

20
21

I felt,

at the time I felt the

officer did what he had to do.

22

Is that what you think here today?

23

I still feel that the officer did what he

24
25

believed was the right thing.


Q

Okay.

And I noticed in your statement

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Page 46

that you gave to the police back on August 13th of

2014, you said you did

Yes.

Tell us about that, what was that for?

I'm a

I'm a

convicted felon and I don't have any love for the

police.

Okay.

My wife and I felt that we should do our

10

civic duty and come forward and tell everybody what

11

we saw.

12

trying to do the right thing.

13

14
15

I'm not comfortable being here, but I'm

Okay.

Questions?

MS. ALIZADEH:

Let me ask a couple just to

clarify, and I didn't ask you about this earlier,

16

Did you see another black younger

17

male that was smaller than Mr. Brown at, near,

18

around the vehicle or running in that area?

19

I have no idea who you might be speaking

20

of.

21

people.

22

neighborhood full of them.

23

The neighborhood was filled with young black


They were allover the place.

MS. ALIZADEH:

It is a

So you don't recall seeing

24

anybody near, or besides Mike Brown, and you've

25

already described where you saw him, did you ever

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Page 47

see another black gentleman at or near the police

vehicle?

3
4
5

A
Mr. Brown.
Q

No, my attention was on the officer and


I did not.
Okay.

And, you know, from what you've

stated, you didn't see anything that occurred prior

to you coming around that bend, correct?

Correct.

So if there was anything that happened

10

prior to you coming around the bend, whether it was

11

between the officer and Mike Brown or anyone else

12

that was there, you didn't witness that?

13

Correct.

14

And let me ask you because Sheila Whirley

15

had asked you about whether or not you felt the

16

officer had to fire,

17

occurred prior to the officer running after Michael

18

Brown, you have no idea what that was?

19

20

No,

if there was something that

I do not.

MS. WHIRLEY:

Just one last follow-up.

As

21

Michael Brown is running away from the officer and

22

he fired at him.

23
24
25

Uh-huh.
MS. WHIRLEY:

Did it appear that Michael

Brown was a threat at that time in your opinion?

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Page 48

I believe that,

I believe, I certainly

believe at the time that Mr. Brown was dangerous.

It was my belief at the time that here was somebody

with a gun running from the police in a residential

neighborhood.

concern.
MS. WHIRLEY:

That's always a danger, a very real

Okay, thank you.

Anybody

else, questions?
What

10

were you doing when you entered the complex?

11

said your wife was driving and you were in the

12

passenger seat, what were you doing at that time,

13

were you looking around, were you talking?

14
15

I was playing with my phone until I heard

the shots.

16
17
18

You

Okay.

So you were

looking down at your phone?


A

And we heard shots.

19

Okay.

I just want to

20

confirm since you thought there was a gunfight and

21

that was because of the sound, not because of

22

anything you saw.

23

Right.

24

And where on the map was

25

Michael Brown when he turn around or spun around as

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Page 49

1
2
3

you said to face the police officer?


A

He had started around here and was running

this way.
Okay.

And had gotten perhaps 50 or 60 feet.


Okay.

And then he

started walking back and where was he at when he

fell, did you see where he fell?

Somewhere in this area.

10

Okay.

(indicating)
And you said

11

throughout everything that Michael Brown spun

12

around, do you feel that he spun around on his own

13

accord or do you feel it was due to the impact of

14

being shot.

15

The bullet, the impact of being shot, uh,

16

certainly appeared to have started him turning.

And

17

whether he continued of his own volition or not,

I'm

18

not certain.

19

spin him around and when he completed the turn, he

20

was facing us again and came back toward the

21

officer.

It looked like the impact started to

22

Okay.

So you feel that

23

maybe if he hadn't been shot, he might have

24

continued to run that way?

25

Right.

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Page 50
Were you able to see

2
3
4

Michael Brown's face after he spun around?


A

From that distance, it was just a large

black guy.
Okay.

This question is

going to be uncomfortable for you to answer, but

Michael Brown you said was your size?

That was the impression I had.


How tall are you?

10

I'm 6'1".
Okay.

11

12

weigh?

13

How much do you

210.

14

Thank you,

I'm done.

15

You

16

mentioned that you are a big guy and we know Michael

17

Brown was a big guy, and do you think that anything

18

to do with the threat towards the police officer

19

because he was a big guy?

20

It's possible, it's possible.

I don't

21

believe the officer was as tall.

My impression was

22

that the officer was perhaps 3 or 4 inches shorter

23

than Mr. Brown.

24

of them are, but I got the impression that he was

25

about half a head shorter.

I'm not certain how tall either one

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Page 51
Okay.

With him having a

gun that you perceived he had?

And physical size.


And physical size.

MS. ALIZADEH:

question?

of Mr.

Okay.

Anyone else have a

This will conclude the testimony

(End of the testimony of

10

of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to

11

testify the truth, the whole truth, and

12

nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid,

13

deposes and says in reply to oral

14

interrogatories, propounded as follows,

15
16

to-wit:

EXAMINATION
BY MS. ALIZADEH:

17

18

19

And how are you employed, sir?

20

I'm a special agent with the FBI assigned

21

Could you state your name, please?

to the St. Louis field office.

22

How long have you been an agent with the

24

Almost 24 years.

25

And have you always been assigned to the

23

FBI?

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Page 52

St. Louis office?

Yes,

I have.

And so were you assigned as a special

agent with the FBI St. Louis office back in the

month of August of this year?

Yes,

Have you had occasion to assist in the

I was.

investigation into the shooting of Michael Brown?

Yes,

10

And have you as part of that

11

I have.

investigation, have you interviewed some witnesses?

12

Yes,

13

Did you interview a witness named

14

I have.

15

Yes,

16

And did you do that by your yourself or

17
18
19

I did.

with another agent?


A

There was another agent assigned with me

to do that interview.

20

Where did that interview take place?

21

At

22
23
24
25

residence at the Canfield

Green Apartment Complex.


Q

contact
A

How is it, how is it that you knew to


, do you recall?
We were assigned, every team of agents was

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Page 53

assigned a specific building and a specific venue.

And that particular apartment was in our venue.

And so was this then as a part of an area

canvas?

Yes, it was.

And just to be clear, so a canvas is

basically you're going door to door and knocking on

doors and stopping people when they pull into the

parking lot, get out of their cars, asking them if

10

they saw anything or know anything; is that right?

11

That's correct.

12

And so when you went to see

13

this wasn't as a specific purpose to interview

14
15

That's correct.

16

So when you went to

17

apartment, was someone home?

18

Yes.

19

Who was there?

20

We knocked on the door and

21

answered the door.

22

Do you recall what day this was?

23

It was on a Saturday following the

24
25

shooting, I believe it was on the 18th.

So this is a week after the shooting, the

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Page 54

shooting happened on the 9th, which was a Saturday,

so this would have been the following Saturday?

Correct.

And so when

answered the

door, were you dressed similarly as to how you are

now?

Yes.

Did you identify yourself as an FBI agent?

Both of us did.

10

Did he invite you into his apartment?

11

Yes, he did.

12

Was anyone else in the apartment?

13

His fiancee

14
15

was there and her younger

brother was also there.


Do you recall the fiancee,

16

is it

17

Yes.

18

And her younger brother, was he a child,

19
20
21
22

was he teenager, was he a young adult?


A

he was just there for the weekend.


Q

23
24
25

He was a teenager who did not live there,

Okay.

And so did you talk to

about whether he was home on August 9th and


heard or witnessed anything involving the shooting?
A

Yes, he did.

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Page 55

He told you he witnessed a part of it; is

that right?

That's correct.

And specifically, well, let me ask you

this, did you record your interview with

Yes.

All right.

And did you later listen to

that recording?

10

Yes.

11

And did that, your recorder accurately

12

record the interview that you had with

13
14

No.

15

So your recorder malfunctioned or didn't

16

work for some reason?

17
18

operator error.

19
20

It was either a mechanical malfunction or

So you don't have a recording of the

interview you had with

21

That's correct.

22

Shortly after your interview with him, did

23

you,

24

were interviewing him?

25

let me ask you this.

Did you make notes as you

Yes, we did.

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Page 56

And shortly after that, did you go and use

your notes and your recollection to prepare a report

about that interview?

Yes, we did.

And did you do that within a couple of

days after the interview?

Yes.

So when you made your report, that

interview was fresh in your mind?

10

Absolutely.

11

Okay.

And so, and did you also have your

12

partner on that day review your report after you

13

completed it in order for him to see if he recalled

14

the same thing that you had recalled?

15

Yes.

16

Okay.

17

And so how long were you talking to

in his apartment, approximately?

18

We were probably there for 35 minutes.

19

And was he cooperative with you?

20

Yes, he was.

21

And so he told you that he saw, he was in

22

his apartment when he heard some shots, correct?

23

Correct.

24

And what did he say he did after he heard

25

the shots?

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Page 57

He initially heard the shots, he was

sitting on the couch when he got up, he heard the

shots, he went up and looked out his window and he

had a partial view of Canfield Drive from his

apartment window.

All right.

And what did he tell you who,

if anybody, did he say he saw when he looked out the

window?

He saw who he now knows to be Michael

10

Brown in the street walking away from the apartment

11

building,

12

kind of walking going down the street.


Okay.

There is a laser pointer in front

13

of you,

you were gesturing with your hands toward

14

the map, which is Grand Jury Exhibit Number 25.

15

you recall, does this look familiar,

16

buildings?

these

17

Yes.

18

Do you know what buildings he was in?

19

20

21
22

, which is right here.


Okay.

(indicating)

And so you had gestured that he saw

Michael Brown walking and you went like that?


(indicating)

23

Correct.

24

What direction did he see Michael Brown

25

Do

walking?

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Page 58

His apartment window would have been right

here.

He would have seen Mr. Brown walking this

direction.

(indicating)
So he would have been facing west on

Canfield Drive walking in a westerly direction if

this is west?

That's correct.

Okay.

And did he see any police officers

from that vantage point?

10

Initially, no.

11

And what did he say he saw Michael Brown

He heard the first couple of shots, three

12
13

do?

14

shots, went to his window,

15

Mr. Brown walking westward down Canfield Drive.

16

heard approximately six more shots, saw Mr. Brown

17

grab his torso with one hand and had another hand

18

up, drop to his knee and fall to the ground.

19

looked out and saw


He

And so when you interviewed

20

let me ask you this.

21

of bed or was he intoxicated or under the influence

22

of something that you thought might make it, might

23

affect his ability to recall what he told you?

24
25

Had he just like gotten up out

No, he answered the door, he was alert and

willing to answer any questions.

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Page 59

Okay.

And so he told you that he saw

Michael Brown walking away from him.

words, away from where he was in his apartment.

then in the direction where he would have been

walking west on Canfield Drive?

Correct.

Okay.

In other
And

Did you ever go back and actually

clarify that with him as far as whether or not he

saw Michael Brown moving in the direction, moving in

10

that direction or whether or not Michael Brown was

11

standing still?

12

We clarified that with him at least three

13

times during the interview just to make sure that we

14

understood what he was saying, and the other agent

15

made sure what he was saying.

16

He was very clear that he saw

17

Mr. Brown, he now knows it's Mr. Brown, at the time

18

he did not know who it was, walking, walking west on

19

Canfield.

20
21

And this was after he had heard a series

of gunshots, correct?

22

Correct.

23

And then he observed him, he heard another

24

series of gunshots, did he tell you if he could see

25

who was firing the weapon?

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Page 60

weapon.

He could not see who was firing the

And then did he say he saw Michael Brown,

you said, clutching his torso or holding his torso

and then one hand up.

you demonstrated.

right hand up?

I can't recall which hand,

I think you demonstrated your

That's how he demonstrated it.

Okay.

10

And then he went down to one knee

and collapsed in the street?

11

Yes.

12

Did he tell you then he saw a police

13
14

officer after that?


A

After Michael Brown had fallen to the

15

ground, he saw an officer approach Michael Brown

16

from the west and approach Michael Brown.

17
18

And so the officer was coming from the

west, was he walking east on Canfield then?

19

Correct.

20

Did he approach the body of Michael Brown?

21

Yes.

22

And so from

vantage point, he

23

could see where Michael Brown came to rest in the

24

street?

25

Correct.

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Page 61

And after Michael Brown collapsed, he saw

the officer walk up towards him?

Correct.

Did you clarify with him that the

direction that Michael Brown was traveling, walking,

was in the direction from where the officer

eventually came?

Yes.

MS. ALIZADEH:

10
11

MS. WHIRLEY:

MS. ALIZADEH:

MS. WHIRLEY:

20

23
24
25

Yes.
MS. WHIRLEY:

And did you have occasion to

speak with her?


A

21
22

was there at the time,

correct?

18
19

I didn't ask that, good

call.

15

17

Yes.

13

16

The only thing I have,

don't think it was addressed,

12

14

I don't have anything else.

Yes.
MS. WHIRLEY:

What was the nature of that

conversation?
A

As part of the canvas, we were asking

anybody if they saw anything and, urn, talking to


, he said that he had called her into the

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Page 62

living room during the encounter, during the shots.

So we asked her specifically, she was in the

kitchen, we asked her specifically if she saw

anything.

well, by the time she had gotten into the living

room by the window, it was over.

She said no.

We asked her why, she said

She was in the bedroom at the time,

he had summoned her into the living room and at that

point it was over, she didn't see what happened.

10

MS. WHIRLEY:

You gave her an opportunity

11

to tell you whether or not she saw something and

12

she, in fact,

13

14
15

told you she did not?

Correct.
MS. WHIRLEY:

That's all I have.

else have questions?

16

I just

17

want to verify the date.

18

on 8/16?

19
20

23
24
25

This was, this took place

It was a Saturday, our interview was the

Saturday after the incident took place.

21
22

Anybody

MS. WHIRLEY:

The same Saturday that the

incident took place?


A

A week later.
MS. ALIZADEH:

plus 7 was 16.

My math is terrible, but 9

I had to do it in the sky.

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Page 63

Any other questions for the agent?

1
2

Did you look out

the window that they looked out of, did you see the

area where Michael Brown was, was he able to see

what he reported seeing?

Yes.

That street was not completely

visible from his apartment.

parts of it.

what he could see, I would believe would be

10

You could only see

So as far as what he was telling us,

accurate.

11

Okay, thank you.

12

13

You couldn't see the whole thing.


MS. WHIRLEY:

Anyone else?

14

You said

15

he could only see part of the road there in

16

Canfield.

17

What exactly was blocking his view?


I can't recall if it was the building or a

18

tree there, but all I can recall is the view of

19

Canfield was very limited from his apartment window.

20

MS. ALIZADEH:

Anyone else?

All right.

21

This will be the end of the testimony of Special

22

Agent

23
24
25

(End of testimony of
MS. ALIZADEH:
October 13th, 10:11 a.m.

.)

This is Kathi Alizadeh,


All 12 grand jurors are

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Page 64

present, myself, Sheila Whirley and the court

reporter

a witness testimony.

on the record that there was some questions that

were asked after the witness testified about some

dates and when certain witnesses were interviewed.

And I think what we discussed and kind of clarified

is that according to what you've heard so far,

, and we just had a small break after


And I want to make sure we put

who is the fiancee of

, was

10

interviewed by the County Police on August 9th, the

11

day that Michael Brown was killed.

12

And that then Agent

and his partner

13

went to their apartment and as a part of an area

14

canvas with no specific purpose of looking for

15

anyone in particular other than any witness that saw

16

this.

17
18
19
20
21

And that he then interviewed


on the 16th of August.

He also said that

was present in the apartment at the time and


said she didn't see anything.
And then you all have also heard from a

22

statement that

was interviewed by the

23

FBI, like on September 30th or something, and that

24

during that interview she described what she says on

25

the 30th she saw.

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1
2
3
4

So there was some question about whether


or not the FBI knew that the FBI, meaning Agent
and Agent

, whether they knew that

had been talked to by agent

and his

partner, and/or whether or not agent

aware that

County Police prior to their interview of her.

8
9

was

had been interviewed by the

And what I explained to you is, to the


best of my knowledge and guess would be that they

10

did not know of the other interviews that had taken

11

place, however, I will tell you that's only until

12

the best guess on my part based upon my

13

understanding of how the investigation was going at

14

that time.

15

The FBI was working independently of the

16

County Police at that time.

17

were not involved in that canvas that took place on

18

the 16th.

19

And the County Police

Originally, there was talk that was, they

20

were going to do the canvas together, the County

21

Police and the FBI.

22

are going to do the canvas just on our own.

23

County Police are not a part of that canvas.

24
25

And then the FBI said, no, we


So the

And so I can clarify this with Detective


and, of course, Detective

will

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probably testify again before your investigation is

completed, but you certainly can ask him that.

3
4

It is my belief and thought is that


probably agent

was not aware that

had been interviewed by County Police when

he went to go see, he knocked on their door on the

16th.

Agent

were not aware that Agent

And then also I would have to verify with


and

10

, it is my guess that they


had seen

and had spoken to her on the 16th because


did not put that in his report because

11

Agent

12

he, according to him, and I discussed this with him,

13

since

14

include that.

said she didn't see anything, he didn't

15

It is like he just didn't.

Whether he should or not is not for me to

16

say, but he just didn't.

17

Agent

18

had talked to

19

So I don't think that

and Agent

were aware that he


when they interviewed

on the 30th.

20

I will certainly try to clear that up for

21

you, but that's only my thought and opinion at this

22

point.

23

All right.
So now,

yes.

24
25

To so
clarify, on August 9th, Miss

was interviewed

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by Detective

not Detective

MS. ALIZADEH:

Correct, yes.

When I said

, what I was thinking of

for him to testify about the lack of information

flowing back and forth at that time because he was

from the get-go, Detective

of the investigation, but of course, he's only in

charge of the county officers.

detective, he was talking to the FBI, but again, he

has been in charge

But as the primary

10

could clarify this for you, but I believe that at

11

that time on the 16th, there wasn't a lot of back

12

and forth going on.

13

speak between the County and the FBI about who had

14

been talked to and what they said and the FBI did

15

this area canvas on their own.

16

Sharing of information so to

It was their desire that the County not be

17

involved.

18

investigation so they said we're going to do this,

19

we don't want County coming with us or being

20

involved in that for whatever reason.

21
22
23

They wanted to have their own independent

So you're right, it was

that

did the interview with


Okay, at this time we're going to --

24
25

So when
two different departments are doing these

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interviews, so how do they determine like, I mean,

it is freshly on their mind on the 9th or three days

after, but then when you come behind like weeks

later, how beneficial is that?


MS. ALIZADEH:

Well, that's going to be up

for you all to talk about when you begin your

deliberations.

statement that's given closer to the time and then

there's a statement that was done after that, how

If there's a difference in a

10

long after that, what are the circumstances of the

11

statement, what about, you know, these are all

12

things for you to consider.

13

differences, why are there differences, you know.

If there are

14

Could it be that the first statement was

15

done because it is brief and then as you know, the

16

FBI has come along and Department of Justice have

17

done subsequent interviews that seem to be longer in

18

duration.

19

all things that you are going to have to decide for

20

yourself.

21

make of those differences.

22

Are they being more detailed?

These are

If there are differences, what do you

So now we're going to listen to a recorded

23

statement of

, and if you will recall

24

we've heard from a

25

he was in a white Monte Carlo that was driven by

who testified that

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her.

It was at the scene on Canfield Drive on that

day.

listen to her statement.

about three minutes long and was done by St. Louis

County police officers, or detectives.

is here, she will testify when we


The first statement is

At this time we'll have

cease the

recording and I will pass out a transcript of this

interview.

down the statement as it is being played and I will

10
11
12
13

And so,

, you do not need to take

give you a copy of the transcript.


(The interview of

is being

played at this time.)


MS. ALIZADEH:

We just needed to mention

14

that statement that we heard was actually about

15

eight minutes long and it was contained on a disc

16

that is marked Grand Jury Exhibit Number 17, and it

17

is a file folder on that disc labeled

18
19

The next statement we are going to hear is

20

also a recorded statement on a disc that's marked

21

Grand Jury Number 36.

22

(Grand Jury Exhibit Number 36

23
24
25

marked for identification.)


MS. ALIZADEH:

It is also a recorded

statement of

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Page 70

I do not have a transcript of this

1
2

statement.

And so at this time I

can have

will have you pause the recording, but if you can

transcribe what you are hearing and we can make a

record of that then.


It is 6:26 p.m. on

MS.

October 13th.

at FBI building at 2222 Market Street.

DOJ trial attorney

, and USA

10

here to interview.

Will you state your name.

11

MS.

12

MS.

13
14

This is special agent

And

I am with

, will you spell

your name?
MS.

last name,

15
16

MS.

You just listened to your

17

recorded statement and is the birthday and social

18

security number correct that you gave the detective?

19

MS.

Yes.

20

MS.

Okay.

21

, before we get into some

22

additional questions that we have,

23

just go over some preliminary stuff with you.

24
25

I just wanted to

When we ask you a question,

if for some

reason you don't understand the question or you are

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Page 71

confused by our asking it, feel free to stop us

because we are going to assume that you understood

when you answer it.

words and don't make sense anyway, so don't think

that you are insulting us by correcting us.

And sometimes we trip over our

Okay.

MS.

And all your answers need to be

out loud because it is being recorded.

a transcript made.

10

So if you nod your head,

I may

ask is that a yes or is that a no.

11

Yes.

MS.

12

So it is totally normal to do

13

that.

14

rude, okay?

15

There may be

If I do that,

And

I'm not doing that to you to be

just referenced that you just

16

listened to your statement is about 8 and a half

17

minutes long.

18

following along with.

19

statement and is it fair as much as you remember

20

with what you said?

21
22

MS.

We have a transcript that you are


Do you remember hearing that

Yes.
Okay.

And so we don't want to

23

really make you rehash everything, we just wanted to

24

ask you some follow-up questions from it.

25

everybody has a piece of the puzzle so to speak.

You know,
We

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Page 72

know you only saw,

end, we don't want you to think that we're looking

for anything and everything possible,

yourself,

know,

you know, the beginning and the

just what you,

okay.

So, therefore, we just have some follow-up

things for you.

And one of the reasons we wanted

you to listen to your statement is because it has

been seven and a half weeks and as you know, this

has been on the news and people talk a lot about it,

10

but our goal is to find out what you,

yourself,

11

know, not what you may have heard on the news.

12

So a lot of times it helps to refresh your

13

memory and kind of separate out what you said at the

14

time and what you,

15

have heard based upon the news or the police report,

16

does that make sense?

17

MS.

yourself, versus what you may

Yes.
Okay.

18

Also, we know it is

19

late, you came here from work.

20

think I've had enough, even though you're in the

21

FBI,

22

to talk any more being, okay?

23
24
25

At any point you

feel free to say I've had enough,

MS.

I don't want

Okay.
This is entirely voluntary.

We

certainly don't want to force you to be here.

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Page 73

Basically we are just looking for what happened and

the truth.

So we have to tell you as I tell everybody

that, it's a crime to make false statements to

federal agents.

honest people.

lie, you are better off not saying anything at all

then like a lie, okay?

MS.

10

So we always say people are very


If you're going to exaggerate or

Okay.
And so basically, like I said

11

we just want to know what happened.

12

something or you're guessing at something, or you're

13

talking about what other people heard, that's fine

14

as long as you let us know that you are assuming,

15

okay?

16

MS.

17

If you assume

Okay.
We just really want to know

18

what you know and what you remember.

19

remember something, it is fine to say you don't

20

remember it.

21

know is a perfectly acceptable answer if you truly

22

do not know.

23
24
25

MS.

If you don't

If you don't know the answer,

I don't

Okay.
All right.

So I just want to,

uh, so I have some follow-up questions based upon

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Page 74

the original statement that you gave.

that initially you saw kind of the beginning of the

action, correct?

MS.

You had said

Yes, ma'am.
And then looking in your rear

view mirror you ultimately saw the end where Michael

Brown ultimately fell and died; is that correct?

MS.

9
10

Yes, ma'am.
At the time did you know

Michael Brown?

11

MS.

12

No, ma'am.
You have since learned the

13

individual who died is that victim, is that fair to

14

say?

15

MS.

16

Yes, ma'am.
Have you since given your

17

statement, you described the thing, the guy that was

18

with him with the dreads, that is how you described

19

him, do you know his name or do you

20
21

MS.

24
25

I actually,

I have

heard of his name, but I forgot.

22
23

No, ma'am,

That is fine.

We will just

keep referring to him as the guy with the dreads.


MS.

Okay.
We will refer to Michael Brown

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Page 75

by his name,

is that fair?

MS.

3
4

Yes, ma'am.
If I do that, will you

understand who we are referring to?

MS.

Yes.
So, you had said in your

initial statement that you were driving behind the

police car SUV; is that correct?

MS.

10
11
12

Who else was in the car with


you.
MS.

13
14
15

18

MS.

21
22

His name is

, I don't

know the last name.


Okay.

And was there anybody

else in the car with you?


MS.

19
20

One of our friends.


And who is that?

16
17

Yes.

No, ma'am.
And when you were driving, do

you remember if your windows were up or down?


MS.

They were down.


And you had mentioned that, urn,

23

that the SUV stopped on the side of the two

24

individuals of Michael Brown and the individual with

25

the dreads; is that correct?

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Page 76

MS.

Yes.
Okay.

And you said, once, uh,

once the vehicle was stopped, can you describe, do

you remember, urn, you described that tussle, do you

remember how it started?

MS.

Urn, actually, like I said, as

I was behind the police officer,

did stop because I was directly behind him, so I had

to slow down also.

10

I noticed that he

Okay.

11

MS.

In the process of up to two

12

young men walking, Michael Brown and the friend with

13

the dreads walking down the street, he did stop.

14

Okay.

15

MS.

Like I said, I don't know

16

what was said, I didn't hear anything, my radio was

17

down and my windows was down.

18
19
20

Your windows was down, was your


radio on?
MS.

At the time, yes, ma'am, but

21

once we stopped, I wanted to know what was going on

22

so I did turn my radio all the way down.

23
24
25

Okay.
MS.

It was completely down.


Now, you mention that you don't

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Page 77

know what was said, is there anything that gives you

the indication, anything that you saw that you

thought something was said?


MS.

Actually,

just rocking back and forth.

Okay.

just by the car

MS.
ma'am,

And that was it.

But no,

didn't hear anything.

Before the car started rocking

10

back and forth,

11

between the guy with the dreads, Michael Brown and

12

the police officer?

13

MS.

did you see any sort of interaction

Actually,

did not because

14

how my car sits and how tall the truck was,

15

didn't see directly what was going on inside.

16

so I

So from your vantage point as

17

soon as you stopped, what's the first thing that you

18

remember seeing?

19
20

MS.

Urn, I just remember the car

just stopping.

21

Okay.

22

MS.

23

men,

24

out of my vision at the time.

25

just,

And the two, the two young

I didn't see them.

Okay.

So they was kind of

At the time that's when

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Page 78

you said you looked under and you saw feet moving,

kind of tapping?

MS.

Yes, ma'am.
Okay.

And you also said that

the guy with the dreads looked like he didn't know

what was going on, what do you mean by that?

MS.

Actually, what I mean by that

is because had he like proceeded to go, he came back

out.

10

So the recording can't pick

11

that up, you are kind of saying, you said he

12

proceeded to go, you we are taking about the guy

13

with the dreads?

14

MS.

15
16
17
18

He proceeded to go, he was


going toward the police car?
MS.

21

Okay.
MS.

24
25

But then,

It was like back and forth.

22
23

He was actually, it looks

like he wanted some help.

19
20

Yes, ma'am.

I don't want help.

It happened so fast.

He moved forward really quickly


and moved backward.
MS.

He moved back and his eyes

kind of got a little big, a little big.

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Page 79

Okay.

And that's what he

looked like, the guy with the dreads didn't know

what was going on?


MS.

Yes, ma'am.

Like probably

knew what was going on, but you know, probably

didn't,

you know,

something like that.

So looks like he was going

forward and then stops,

MS.

10

you able to see Michael Brown?


MS.

No, ma'am,

But you saw his feet at that

16

point; is that correct?

17

MS.

18

feet just like tapping.

19

21

still wasn't

able to see him.

15

20

like he's

While this is going on, were

13
14

Yes, ma'am,

shocked.

11

12

like changing his mind now?

Yes, ma'am,

Okay.

saw a pair of

Do you know whose feet

it was?
MS.

Actually,

to be honest, no,

22

ma'am, but I can say the young man with the dreads

23

was towards the back, he was towards the back once I

24

saw come in and out,

25

towards the back of the truck and wasn't so close to

I just figured that he was

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Page 80

the driver's side of the door.

Okay.

So the only two people

on the street you saw Michael Brown and the guy with

the dreads?

MS.

Yes, ma'am.
And so since you're describing

the other guy with the dreads, the only other

person's feet that could have been was Michael

Brown?

10

MS.

11

Yes, ma'am.
Okay.

So you describe what you

12

saw these feet they were like moving and tapping,

13

and you said some kind of confrontation?

14

MS.

15

Why do you say confrontation?

16
17

MS.

Okay.

19

MS.

20
MS.

It was just like side by

side.

23

25

The vehicle was rocking.


What about how it was rocking?

21

24

Just because of how feet was

moving, how the truck was rocking walking.

18

22

Yes, ma'am.

And this is while the police


officer is still in the driver's side?
MS.

Yes, ma'am.

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Page 81

Okay.

And then you said that

the guy with the dreads is looking to see what was

going on.

What do did you mean by that?


MS.

Actually, what I mean by that

because, like I said, he was kind of, like he wanted

to go, but he don't.

7
8

Like he wanted to go towards


the vehicle?

10

MS.

help, you know.

11
12

Did you actually see what he


was doing?

13
14

Towards, probably try to

MS.

Uh, yes, ma'am,

like back and

forth.

15

Okay.

And then while you are

16

describing all of this, this tussling is still going

17

on between Michael Brown and the police officer as

18

far as you can tell?

19

MS.

20
21
22
23

Yes, ma'am.
That's when you heard the

gunshot go off?
MS.

Yes, ma'am.
And then you said that the

24

suspect got shot back up, you talking about Michael

25

Brown when you said that?

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Page 82

MS.

Yes, ma'am.
You said the suspect got shot,

what about, what made you say that he got shot?


MS.

Actually,

I just heard the

gunshots.

It was just like when I heard the gun go

off, he kind of like came off of the truck.

Okay.
MS.

So that's what made me think

at the time that he probably was hit at the time.

10

And then, how were you able to

11

see when Michael Brown backed up, were you able to

12

see him?

13

MS.

Yes, ma'am.

14

And why were you able to see

15

him, what move allowed from your vantage point to

16

see him?

17

MS.

Actually,

at this time the

18

truck had kind of came back a little bit more,

19

back on like hit on the brakes a little bit more.

20

don't know if he was trying to run or not because

21

actually I couldn't see over that way.

22

came

Can you point out for me a

23

little bit, so Michael Brown, you were able to see

24

him?

25

MS.

Yes, ma'am.

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Page 83

1
2

Right after the shot because he


backed up?

MS.

4
5

Yes, ma'am.
And that was because the truck

moved a little bit?

MS.

Actually, when he backed up,

he kind of backed, at this time he backed all the

way up from a distance to where I can just see his

body.

10

Okay.

11

MS.

12

Like back up.


Okay.

13

MS.

You know.

14

You talking about him

15

backing away from the side of the police car?

16

MS.

17

The police vehicle?

18

MS.

19
20

23

Yes, sir.
Okay.

Then you said he looked

amazed?

21
22

Yes, sir.

MS.

Like he was shocked, yes

ma'am.
And then you said, urn, that

24

they both, the guy with the dreads and Michael Brown

25

then ran towards to find out what was happening.

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Page 84
Yes, ma'am.

MS.

At this point is when you start

ducking; is that right?

MS.

Right.

After I heard the

first shot and I see Michael Brown jump out of the

car, yes, ma'am,

running because actually, they ran past my car, so I

didn't know what was going on.

was terrified.

When they start

And that makes sense.

They are

10

running past your car and you just heard gunshots

11

and you were terrified?

12

MS.

13

You started to duck,

14

MS.

15
16

Yes, ma'am.
correct?

Yes, ma'am.
You said you were able to see

that the police officer ran past as well,

17

MS.

18

correct?

Yes, ma'am.
And was there a pause between

19

the time that the boys started running past you and

20

the police officer?

21

MS.

There actually was.

Just

22

because we was trying to get out of the truck at the

23

time.

24

Brown and the guy with the dreads took off running,

25

that's when I noticed the police comes out.

So once we took off running, once Michael

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Page 85

Okay.

bit of a break?

For you to open up the car


door?

officer to open the car door and get out.


Did you actually see him open
up the car door?

11

12

No, no, for the police

MS.

9
10

just enough time

to open up the car door.

Yes, ma'am,

MS.

5
6

So there was a little

I could not see from the

MS.

other side of the car.

13

Okay.

14

MS.

But once he came from away

15

from the car in my view where I can actually see

16

him.

17
18

You already were down inside


the vehicle?

19
20

MS.

was down.

21
22
23
24
25

Yes, ma'am, at that time I

At any point did you open your


car door?
MS.

Oh, no, ma'am,

I did not open

up my driver's side of the car.


How about

, did he open

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Page 86

his door?

Yes, ma'am, he did.

MS.

Do you know why?

Actually to get down.

We

MS.

were scared, terrified.

did it, but I know he was hanging outside of the car

trying to get,

you know,

10

I can't tell why he

shelter or whatnot.

Okay.

I mean,

And so you said that

once you saw the police officer kind of go past you,


you said you instantly ducked.

11

MS.

(inaudible)

Yes, ma'am,

I was down, my

12

whole head was in the passenger seat.

13

on

lap.

14
15
16

So I'm almost

Okay.

Obviously, you are

terrified.
MS.

Yes, ma'am, my hand is on the

17

steering wheel, my feet is on the brake,

18

even put my car in park, that's how quick it

19

happened and I just ducked down.

20
21
22

Okay.

I couldn't

So you are not looking

out the window at this point?


MS.

No, ma'am,

no, ma'am,

23

blacked out just a little bit.

And then,

24

-- I blacked out just a little bit.

25

know why, but I did.

yeah,

I mean,

just

I don't

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Page 87

And you don't how long you

blacked out for?

MS.

Actually,

it was for a short

period of time because once I proceeded to sit up

and I looked out my rear view mirror, that's when I

saw the end, when actually him running, his back was

turned and he turned around.

8
9

I'm going to ask you, that part

that you blacked out, you don't know what went on

10

from the time

11

MS.

12

Right.

13

MS.

14
15

No, ma'am, because I'm down.

Because I'm down.


As you describe it as blacked

out.

16

MS.

17

Right.
Okay.

And so you don't know

18

what went on prior to the time where Michael Brown

19

turned around?

20
21

MS.

time,

was up at that

yes, ma'am.

22

While he was on the ground?

23

MS.

24

MS.

25

Actually,

Yes, ma'am.
Okay.

But leading up to

that?

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MS.

Leading up to that, no, he's

running from him with his back from him, with his

back from him.

4
5

All right.
MS.

6
7
8
9

But you didn't see any of this


go on because you were ducking?
MS.

12

Okay.

15

And you heard that

initial shot from the SUV, correct?


MS.

13
14

I was ducking as the police

officer came towards my car, I got down, yes, ma'am.

10
11

I do know that.

Yes, ma'am.
And then you heard, as you

describe, those three shots at the end?


MS.

16

Yes, ma'am.
Okay.

And you describe that

17

the guy with the dreads came over to the passenger

18

side of your car trying to get in?

19

MS.

20

Yes, ma'am.
And now where in what you just

21

described in the ducking and the blacking out and

22

the looking back up, at what point did the guy with

23

the dreads come over to the car?

24
25

MS.

Actually, when I did go out

for a little bit, like I said, I just blanked out a

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little bit, but when I was down,

eyes.

young man with the dreads, where

open, he had it slung open.

he had -- he crawled.

crawled.

asked me could I get him away from here because it

is crazy.

I was still down, and that's when I saw the

MS.

11

18

MS.

MS.

23

passenger door

is kind of opened?
MS.

It's opened wide.


Okay.

MS.

Uh-huh.
So the guy with the dreads kind

of crawled over?
MS.

24
25

Yes, ma'am.
So when

21
22

Yes, ma'am.
Do you have a two-door car?

19
20

Yes, ma'am.

crazy?

16
17

You could tell that he

Get me away from here, it's

14
15

He was on the curb, but

Is that what he said?

10

13

had the door

He was in the car and he just basically

12

I did open up my

Yes, ma'am.
What was your response to him?

MS.

Actually,

I told him to get

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Page 90

down.

That's all I had,

thing that came to my mind,


Okay.

4
5

just get down.


And then

Obviously, you didn't let


the guy with the dreads in your car?

MS.

7
8

I mean, that was the only

No, sir, I did not.


Why was it that you wouldn't

let him in your car?

MS.

Actually,

I didn't know what

10

was going on for one and I was actually, didn't have

11

a clue if he had or who had it, I just didn't know.

12

It wasn't something that I was willing to do.

13

If he had what?

14
15

MS.

had a gun,

You didn't know what was


going on?

18

19

I didn't know if he

I didn't know what was going on.

16
17

Actually,

MS.

Actually,

I didn't know what

was going.

20

And so for that reason you

21

didn't allow the guys with the dreads in the car

22

with you?

23

MS.

Yes, sir.

24

MS.

Do you know if he stayed

25

there or he went elsewhere?

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Page 91

Actually,

MS.

minutes,

I told him no, he disappeared.

just for a few minutes,

Now,

just for a few


like I said, after

I don't know where he went,

focusing on him.

on.

I wasn't

I was trying to see what was going

So I was trying to ask you

this, when he said to you get me out of here, it is

crazy, and you said, get down.

10
11

else?

14
15

Did you guys say you can't get


in the car?

18
19

No, ma'am,

MS.

I did not, get

down, that was it.

16
17

No, ma'am, he did not.

MS.

12
13

Did he say anything

Okay.

Did you know that he

wanted to get in the car?


Actually,

MS.

just by what he

said, the statement that he made to me.

20

I guess what I'm trying to

21

figure out is, how did you let him know that you

22

weren't letting him in the car?

23
24
25

Actually, for one,

MS.

I wasn't

moving it at the time.


Okay.

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Page 92

1
2

MS.

anywhere anyway.
Did

3
4

So he wasn't going to go

MS.

No,

say anything to him?


just get down.

We both

just hollered the same thing, get down.


Okay.

All right.

At some

point you looked up and you were looking in your

rear view mirror?

MS.

10

Yes, ma'am.
So everything that you observed

11

after that was with regard to Michael Brown and the

12

police officer was through your rear view mirror?

13

MS.

14
15
16

And your review mirror is for


reverse, correct?
MS.

17
18
19

Yes, ma'am.

Is it reverse?
I don't want to misstate it.

(inaudible)
MS.

20

Oh, yeah, oh, yeah.


(Inaudible)

So when you are

21

looking in your review mirror, you said you saw the

22

male turn around and basically stop, this is Michael

23

Brown, correct.

24
25

MS.

Yes, ma'am.
That's when you heard two or

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Page 93

three more gunshots, and Michael Brown went down to

the ground.
Yes, ma'am.

MS.

4
5

And then after that you,


drive away?
MS.

Yes, ma'am.

You describe yourself at that


point, were you still terrified?
MS.

My leg was shaking.

10
11

you

Okay.

And so how did you

manage to driveway then?

12

MS.

With

13

down, my legs were moving.

14

Okay.

15

MS.

16

like I said,

17

life.

just calm me

And I just cried because,


I've never seen nothing like that in my

18

Okay.

19

you drove away, urn,

20

you mean a police SUV.

21

MS.

And so you describe and

and there was another truck, do

Yes, ma'am.

In the process

22

of me, after the incident had happened, probably

23

about two or three cars pulled up and they came

24

towards my car.

25

somebody is in here,

So I had to basically yell,

like

you know, because he was real,

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October 13, 2014
Page 94

real close.

So just so I can understand.

So you started to drive away and as you were

driving

No, actually at this time,

MS.

didn't even get a chance to even move at this time.

They were coming towards the way, towards me.

8
9

You were stopped in the middle


of street because you had to stop?

10
11

Yes, ma'am, right at the

MS.

curb, yes, ma'am.

12

Okay.

13

Right by the complex.

MS.

14

And then you drove away?

15

Yes, ma'am,

MS.

16

All right.

I did.

How did it come to

17

you that you then met with the St. Louis County

18

Police Detective?

19

Actually,

MS.

I stay in that area

20

at the time and my mom basically, basically got the

21

news.

22

in the process of seeing was her daughter okay,

23

was up in the house, the house is right before you

24

get to Canfield Green.

25

So she came to see was her daughter okay.

So
I

Okay.

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Page 95

MS.

And one of the young men,

like I said,

I don't know nobody over there or

whatnot, but he the one that brought the police to

me.

were the ones in the car,

there and probably remember my car or something

because he came directly to me.

The FBI, like I said,

I don't know but they


I guess.

Somebody was out

The police did?


MS.

10

The FBI,
Okay.

MS.

11

12

He's St. Louis County.

Okay, okay, the detective.


So he came to you?

13

MS.

14

front of the neighbors.

15

people, but they stayed in the house right there.

16
17

I was on the

I don't even know the

Okay.

You said something about

brought him to you?

18

MS.

19

mean,

20

in Canfield Green.

like I said,

21
22

Yes, ma'am.

Actually, a young man,

I don't know anybody that stays


I didn't know him exactly.
What do you mean exactly?

MS.

I've probably seen him like

23

around in the complex, but I don't know him.

24

talking to him on like a daily basis.

25

Okay.

As

Is it fair to say that

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Page 96

what you know that happened that day is limited to

that initial, you describe the confrontation or

tussle at the car,

correct?

MS.

Yes, ma'am.

And then you saw through your

rear view mirror at the end when Michael Brown was

facing the police officer, you heard the shots and

he went down to the ground?

MS.

10

Yes, ma'am.
Okay.

11

Just to be clear, you heard

12

that first shot when the tussle was going on at the

13

side of the police SUV?

14

MS.

15
16
17

20

sir.

And you saw those final two


or three shots?
MS.

18
19

Yes,

Yes,

sir.

There wasn't any other shots


in between?
MS.

Not to my knowledge.

I'm

21

just going to be honest, that's probably when I was

22

blacked out.

23
24
25

Okay.
MS.

Once,

I raised up --

And you mentioned,

I know

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Page 97

that that you were ducked down, and you basically

was trying to get down as low as you could, is that

fair.

MS.

Yes, sir.

5
6

But you mention that you


were able to see the police officer run by your car?

MS.

Yes, sir.

8
9

And could you tell at that


time where his gun was or could you see any of that?

10
11

MS.

Actually, when he ran by it

was drawn.

12
13

Okay.
side?

14
15

MS.

toward,

No, he had it drawn up

I'm going to say aimed.

16
17

Okay.

MS.

Not to my knowledge.

19

You want to take a break?

20

We can we take a break.

21

MS.

25

Yeah,

I have a couple of

questions.

23
24

But at that time you

didn't hear any other shots?

18

22

Did he have it at his

If we with can, we will take a


break for just a second.
MS.

Sure.

I am going to leave

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Page 98

this on because it makes it easier, okay?

MS.

Okay.
You mentioned early on you

turned the radio down to see if you could hear

anything?

MS.

Yes.
Anything, you hear anything

from Michael Brown or the officer or the guy with

the dreads, other than what you've described?

10

MS.

11

No, ma'am.
Okay.

And right after that

12

first shot when you said Michael Brown stepped back

13

and what did he do right after that?

14

MS.

15

He took off running.


Okay.

Did he go back to his

16

car, did you see him briefly going toward the car or

17

did he immediately run away?

18
19

MS.

running down the street.

20
21
22

Was there anything else,


?

MS.

23
24
25

He immediately took off

Sorry.
The guy with the dreads?

MS.

You say you saw Michael

Brown, you saw the guy with the dreads just when

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Page 99

took a step back, you saw him look?

MS.

Yes, ma'am.

MS.

When he came back, what, did

he just stay there, did he move?

MS.

forward,

No, actually, when he went

then he came back, he actually took off.

MS.

Okay.

MS.

He starts to take off to get

MS.

But your focus is still on

12

MS.

Yes, ma'am.

13

MS.

Now, when he took off to get

away.

10
11

that car?

MS.

16

after.

17

MS.

Okay.

18

MS.

It was right after the first

MS.

You see the guy with the

22

MS.

Okay.

23

MS.

Go in like, and then come

MS.

Uh-huh.

19

shot.

20
21

24
25

dreads?

back?

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Page 100

MS.

back?

Gunshot, or does he come

At what point was the gunshot?

MS.

Actually,

it was the shot and

then it was like back, once he came forward,

like back.

7
8

it was

MS.

You saw both of them at the

MS.

No, ma'am.

same time?

with the dreads come back.

I saw the one

Now, that's when, when

10

he came back and he kind of like hesitant, that's

11

when I saw Michael Brown.

12

MS.

Okay.

13

MS.

At the car and then that's

14

when they proceed to take off.

15

MS.

Together.

16

MS.

Actually, the one with the

17
18

dreads kind of got away just a little bit extra.


MS.

19

Okay.
Okay.

20
21
22
23

When is next time you see


the guy with the dreads then?
MS.

of the car, on the news.

24
25

After I saw him on the side

Okay.
MS.

On the news.

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Page 101

We don't have any more

questions for you.

anything that you want to add that we think we

should know that we haven't asked you or they didn't

ask you that day?

MS.

8
9

12
13

16

MS.

19

important that we've missed at all?


MS.

22

Okay.

25

Do you think we have

treated you fairly?


MS.

Yes, ma'am.
Did we force you to say

anything that you didn't want to say?


MS.

No.
We didn't make you any promises

about anything?
MS.

23
24

Uh, not to my knowledge.

gave you all I have.

20
21

Yes, ma'am.
Anything you think is

17
18

No, ma'am.

all the information that you know?

14
15

is there

You feel like you have given us

10
11

I just want to ask you,

No.
Okay.

MS.

So you feel comfortable?

Yes.
Well, thank you so much for

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Page 102

your time, we appreciate it.

MS.

We will end the interview.

(That was the end of the interview.)

MS. ALIZADEH:

This is Kathi Alizadeh,

it

is about 11:03.

recording while we listened to the statement of the

Department of Justice and FBI and u.S. attorneys did

with

question about your lunch break and that's why we

10

We just took a pause for the

and then I just had a brief

paused again.

So now we are ready to hear from

11

12
13

of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to

14

testify the truth, the whole truth,

15

nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid,

16

deposes and says in reply to oral

17

interrogatories, propounded as follows,

18
19

to-wit:

EXAMINATION
BY MS. WHIRLEY:

20

Sheila Whirley, Kathi Alizadeh, all grand

21

jurors,

22

the grand jurors for us, please?

, and would you introduce yourself to

23

24

Okay.

25

and

am
, you know why we're

here?

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Page 103

Yes, ma'am.

This is about the Michael Brown shooting.

Where do you live?

Actually,

All right.

I say in Northwinds Apartments.


Is that where you lived on

August 9th 2014?

Yes, ma'am.

I don't believe Northwinds is on this map.

You see this map, Grand Jury Exhibit Number 25, does

10

it look familiar as far as the Canfield Green

11

Apartments are concerned?

12

Yes, ma'am.

13

Okay.

Which way would Northwinds

14

Apartments be based on this map,

15

us?

if you could tell

If you can't, that's fine.

16

Urn, urn.

17

You can't really tell on this map?

18

Huh-uh.

19

I'm going to ask you some more things

20

about the map, so I want to show you how this works.

21

This is a pen light,

22

button and you can direct it wherever you it to go,

23

okay.

24
25

I guess, and you push that

Can you push the button?

Yeah, all right.

So you live in Northwinds which is,


is that east of the Canfield Green Apartments?

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Urn,

This would be east and this would be west.

I'm closer to Glen Owen.

Glen Owen.

map either.

August the 9th, what did you do that morning when

you first woke up?

yes,

it is towards the back by Glen

Owen.

I don't think that's on the

So tell us what you were doing on

Actually, got up for the day.

10

What did you have planned?

11

Actually,

12

just going to ride around and

just enjoy the day on a Saturday.

13

Okay.

You and who, who were you with?

14

I was with

15

Just

16

Yes, ma'am.

17

18

Yes, ma'am.

19

And nobody else was in the car?

20

No, ma'am.

21

And you were driving that day?

22

Yes.

23

What type of automobile were you in?

24

Urn,

25

What color?

I had a

'99 Monte Carlo.

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It is white.

It is white, okay.

It is a two-door.

I think most Monte Carlos are two doors.

Is it a two-door?

I guess it was a two-door white Monte Carlo?

Yes.

When did you first see the police officer

in this case?

Actually,

I saw the police officer as I

10

was coming across the bridge coming towards the end

11

of Northwinds going towards Canfield Drive.

12

You don't know what street that would have

14

Actually, that would have been Glen Owen.

15

That's Glen Owen?

16

Yes, ma'am.

17

Which,

13

been?

I don't think we see on this map.

18

So you saw him, he was driving coming from the

19

Northwinds area also?

20
21

Urn, yes, ma'am,

just like right,

just

actually right past the little bridge thing.

22

Okay.

Was he driving,

I don't want to

23

talk at the same time you talk, so forgive me if I

24

did.

25

Was he driving fast when you saw him?

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Page 106

No, ma'am.

Just normal?

Yes, ma'am.

He didn't have red lights and sirens?

No, ma'am.

As if he was answering a police call or

anything like that?

No, ma'am.

Okay.

10

Yes, ma'am.

11

And what made you notice the police car?

12

Urn, actually, when I was coming, like I

So did he appear to be alone?

13

said, across the bridge,

I saw him coming out of the

14

street.

15

know what the side street right there, but he was

16

coming, proceeding to turn to come the same

17

direction that I was going.

One of the side streets,

I really don't

18

What direction were you going?

19

Actually,

I was going toward, this time I

20

am going towards Canfield, like going towards West

21

Florissant.

22

23

Okay.

So this is Canfield Drive, does

that look familiar?

24

Yes, ma'am.

25

Which way were you traveling?

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Page 107

Urn, actually

Show us with the light.

I was coming approximately, like I said, I

believe, I can't tell which way is West Florissant.

This is West Florissant?

That's West Florissant.

Actually, I was

coming from this direction, going wards West

Florissant.

Can you tell us, is it on this map at the

10

time that you noticed the officer pulling out?

11

it's not, just tell us.

If

12

Actually, I really cannot tell.

13

Was the officer in front of you though?

14

Yes, ma'am, he was.

15

So at some point the officer's car

16

stopped, correct?

17

Yes, ma'am.

18

Were you behind the officer when the

19

officer's car stop?

20

Yes, ma'am, I sure was.

21

Where about was that on the map?

22

Probably like right in between the

23

apartment complex.

Just like right actually he fell

24

out is actually where I stopped, probably right up

25

in here closer to the apartment complex.

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Page 108

Okay.

But you're not absolutely certain

looking at this map?

No, ma'am.

So when you first saw the officer stop,

5
6

what did you observe?


A

Actually,

I just observed there are two

gentlemen walking down the street.

Which way were they walking?

They was walking my direction, going back

10
11
12

towards Northwinds.
Q

So if this is West Florissant, which way

were they walking?

13

They was walking this way.

14

That way?

15

Yes, ma'am.

16

East.

17

And they were in the middle of the

street?

18

Yes, ma'am.

19

Can you describe the two gentleman you saw

20

walking in the middle of the street?

21

Can I get up?

22

Sure.

23

Actually, right behind the police officer,

24
25

they was just walking.


Q

Okay.

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Page 109

Directly down the middle lane.

Just kind of casually walking?

Yes, ma'am, not running.

Tell us what they looked like?

Actually, one guy was a pretty big

gentleman, tall in size, the other one was kind of

probably my height, probably a little bit shorter,

don't know, with dreads and basically that was it.

10

Okay.

And the guy that was taller, was he

a lot taller than you?

11

Oh, yes, ma'am.

12

Was he bigger?

13

Yes, ma'am, bigger and a lot taller.

14

Do you recall what he was wearing?

15

Actually,

16

I can remember khaki shorts, urn,

I know he had on a baseball cap.

17

What color?

18

Uh, the baseball cap was dark in color.

19

Did he have it on when he started walking?

20

Yes, ma'am it was like a dark, dark hat,

21
22
23

like a baseball cap.


Q

Okay.

And you know that person to be Mike

Brown as we stand here today talking about it?

24

Yes, ma'am.

25

Okay.

And so we'll refer to him as Mike

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Brown?

All right.

So Mike Brown and the other guy Dorian

Johnson, walking down the middle of street and what

happens?

Actually, as they was walking down the

middle of the street, that's when the officer

stopped in front of me and stopped behind him.

the process of them walking down the middle of the

In

10

street, that's when I saw the officer actually stop

11

the vehicle.

12

stop at the time.

13

14

It wasn't a jerk stop, it was a slow

Was he driving
MS. ALIZADEH:

, can I get you just

15

in case, you are soft spoken because the microphone

16

is recording is at the desk,

17

you to stand up and demonstrate something, would you

18

be good enough to sit?

19

20

so unless Sheila needs

Yes, ma'am.
MS. ALIZADEH:

That way we are getting

21

your voice picked up because you are kind of soft,

22

sorry.

23
24
25

MS. WHIRLEY:
Q

No problem.

(By Ms. Whirley) When you saw him walking,

the two walking and the officer stopped, what kind

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Page 111

of car was the officer in?

suv.

Like a

What color?

It was white.

A white SUV with police?

Ferguson.

It was like a marked police car?

Yes, ma'am.

When you saw that car stopped, was the car

10

stopped just driving in the natural, you know, down

11

the lane stopping or did it stop some other way?

12

Oh, no,

it was straight down the lane.

13

Straight down the lane.

And what happened

14

at that time when you saw the car stop,

15

he appear to be talking to anybody?

16
17

I mean, did

Urn, yes, ma'am, but I didn't hear

anything.

18

Okay.

19

I didn't hear anything.

20

Okay.

21

After he, after the actual stop, urn, quick

And then what happened next?

22

seconds, it wasn't really a long period of time and

23

that's when, urn,

24

go like in reverse.

25

it came to like the, the two guys are right here and

I saw the truck or the SUV slightly


I saw the reverse lights on and

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Page 112

they like, like jump back.

but it went back.

He put it in reverse,

Okay.

And that's when it went to an actual stop

just like that, and the truck shook just a little

bit, but you could tell that somebody pressed down

on the brake really hard.

So at first when the car stopped, it was

just driving the normal lane, you were behind the

10

car and there looked to be some conversation between

11

the officer and the two people walking down the

12

middle

13

Yes, ma'am.

14

-- of the street.

15
16

Then the car drives

away and goes in reverse?


A

No, it never drove away.

I guess as the

17

two suspects start to actually keep proceeding

18

walking.

19

Okay.

20

That's when it looks like he's trying to

21
22
23

stop them from walking away from the truck.


Q

I see.

And they're walking away, so he

has to go in reverse to get up to them?

24

Yes, ma'am.

25

Did he hit them, hit either one of them?

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Page 113

Actually,

I couldn't tell if he hit them

or not.

at, like a hard stop at that time.

Was the car straight as if it was going

toward West Florissant or some other way?

6
7

I just know that the truck actually stopped

Actually, when it went back to stop them

again, it was like in a catty-corner.

Like an angle?

Yes, ma'am, like an angle.

10

And then what happened?

11

And then after that, that's when I notice

12

that the truck got to rocking back and forth.

13

Was anybody at the truck from the outside?

14

Oh, yes, ma'am.

15

Who was at the truck?

16

Urn, it was Michael Brown at the time.

17

You know his name as Michael Brown?

18

Yes, ma'am.

19

What did you see, actually observe?

20

Actually,

21

feet,

I didn't see anything for,

a set of feet just moving up under the truck.

22

Your car is still behind?

23

Yes, ma'am, still stuck behind.

24

Okay.

25

just

And when the officer drove back at

the diagonal and hit the brake real hard, was he

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Page 114

1
2

close to hitting you,

your car?

Actually, he was close enough, but he was

like right there to where I couldn't even move.

So

I thought,

was kind of shocked if he would have hit my car, but

he didn't.

you know, as it was coming, you know,

Were you concerned that he was going to

hit it the way he came back?

Yes, rna' am,

10

You swerved over?

11

No, rna' am,

12

You stopped?

13

Yes, ma'am.

14

So you see feet and what else?

15

Actually,

16

tapping,

I had to swerve over.

I was there.

I just see the feet like

like tapping type of.

17

Did the car move?

18

Actually,

19

like side to side.

20

forth,

it was rocking back and forth,


I'm not going to say back and

I'm going to say side to side.

21

Were you are windows down?

22

Yes, ma'am.

23

Could you hear anything?

24

No, ma'am, at that time, no, ma'am.

25

You didn't hear the officer or the person

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outside the window say anything?

No, ma'am.

And Mike Brown was right at the officer's

driver down window?

Yes, ma'am.

Did that windowed seem to be down?

Oh yes,

Could see his hands or see just his feet?

I just saw feet.

10

You couldn't see the top of his head or

11

it was down.

anything?

12

No, ma'am.

13

And then what?

14

And then after that, that's when I, short

15

period of time, of like some seconds went past,

16

heard the first gunshot.

17

Okay.

18

At that time, yes, ma'am.

19

And where was Michael Brown and the

20

Did you just hear one shot?

officer when you heard the shot?

21

He was still at the window.

22

The officer was inside the car?

23

Yes, ma'am.

24

And Mike Brown was at the window when you

25

heard the shot?

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Page 116

Yes, ma'am.

What happened then?

After that, that's when I saw a young man

with the dreads,

I really can't get his name, but

that's when I saw him like hesitant, like going,

coming back and that's when I actually saw him step

behind the truck at this time.

The guy, his name is Dorian Johnson?

Dorian Johnson.

10

When the shot went off, you saw him go

11

behind?

12

No, he was like hesitant, you try to go

13

help somebody, but you jump back like he was

14

surprised or something.

15
16

Okay.

All right.

Where did you go, where

did you see him go?

17

Actually, after that I saw him like take

18

off.

That's when he took off.

He kind of like

19

ducked down, he was out of sight,

20

any more until he proceeded on the side.

I didn't see him

21

On the side of what?

22

My car.

23

What side of your car?

24

The passenger side.

25

Of the front passenger side?

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Page 117

Yes, ma'am.

Who was at the front passenger side of

your car?

Actually

Because he was riding in the passenger

seat in the front?

Yes, ma'am.

Okay.

9
10

All right.

So let's go back to

Michael Brown, you hear the shot, what did Michael


Brown do?

11

Actually, when I heard the first shot,

12

didn't even see Michael Brown at the time because I

13

was so focused on the other gentleman, but once

14

after that, after Dorian had came over to the side

15

of the car, that's when I saw Michael Brown kind of

16

back up off of the SUV.

17

time.

18

his body.

I could see him at this

He had got back enough so where I could see

19

Did it look like he was injured?

20

It happened so fast,

21

no, ma'am,

I couldn't

even tell if he was shot at that time.

22

You didn't see blood or anything?

23

No, ma'am,

24

So when you heard the shot at the car, you

25

I did not.

said Michael Brown backs off the car.

Does it

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Page 118

appear to you that the shot is coming from inside

the police car?

Yes, ma'am.

Okay.

5
6

7
8

And when he backs off the car, what

happens then?
A

Urn, when he backs up off the car, that's

when Michael Brown actually just took off running.


Q

Which way did he run?

Show us with the

penlight or whatever?

10

This is West Florissant.

11

This is West Florissant?

12

He started to come this way.

13

He's running east?

14

Yes, ma'am.

15

And what did you do?

16

Urn, actually, when he started running,

17

that's when, when he started running,

18

When I ducked down, urn, actually,

19

towards the ground like in the car.

(indicating)

I ducked.

I got all the way

20

Okay.

That was my question.

21

When I was inside the car,


ducked.

I actually

22

ducked down, me and

And in the

23

process of us ducking, that's when I heard like a

24

second gunshot.

25

Brown had already ran past the car.

And after this, that's when Michael

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Page 119

Let me ask you a question.

When you heard

that second gunshot, could you see what was going

on?

Actually, when I heard the second gunshot,

to be honest, no, ma'am, my head was down.


Q

we went.

I understand.

You are ducking down inside the car?

10

Just like this.

11

When you hear the second gunshot?

12

Yes, ma'am.

(indicating)

14

that point?

15

No, ma'am.

16

Did you see the officer exit his car?

17

Actually, once I proceeded to get up and

18

look, that's when I saw the officer running directly

19

down the street after him.

20
21

Was that after you heard the second

gunshot?

22

Yes, ma'am.

23

All right.

24

of his car?

25

Actually,

Straight down the street.


So you saw the officer get out

I couldn't see him get out of

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1
2

his car, I couldn't see him get out.


Q

Okay.

When you, after you ducked down,

you heard a second gunshot, once you get back up,

you see the officer chasing or running after Michael

Brown; is that right?

Yes, ma'am.

And then what do you see?

And that's when I proceeded to look out my

rear view mirror, he was running,

shots was fired,

10

saw Mike Brown turn around facing the officer at

11

this time.

12

they weren't all the way up, but they was probably

13

just like this.

14

review mirror, heard about two or three more

15

gunshots, Michael Brown fell to the ground.

16

(indicating)

17

Hands was up probably about like this,

And that's when I looked at the

When you say your rear view mirror, are

18

you talking about the mirror that's in the center of

19

your window?

20

Yes, ma'am.

21

You are not talking about the windows on

22

the outside?

23

No, the window.

24

So you are looking behind you at this

25

point?

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Page 121

Yes, ma'am.

You're parked facing west looking through

your rear view window or mirror as they're running

this way?
A

around, how far you were from them?

Uh, actually, no, ma'am.

10

Okay.

All right.

So now we want to get

11

more specific about when you saw him turn around.

12

So you heard the second shot, you don't know what

13

was going on, then Michael Brown turns around,

14

you hear the officer say anything?

can

15

No, ma'am.

16

Can you hear Michael Brown say anything?

17

No, ma'am.

18

Do you know where Dorian is at this point?

19

Dorian was actually on the side and at

20

that time, no, ma'am,

I didn't even look no more,

21

didn't look, you know, down.

22

You're watching?

23

I'm watching.

24

Okay.

25

And show us exactly, stand up for

us again, please, and show us about how the hands

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were, show us when he turned around?

Actually, he just turned around like this.

I heard the other three gunshots and then when I saw

him boom, hit the ground.

(indicating)

So when he turned around, he wasn't

staggering or anything?

Not to my knowledge, no, ma'am.

Was he coming toward the officer?

No, ma'am.

10

He wasn't walking towards the officer?

11

No, ma'am.

12

He wasn't charging the officer?

13

No, ma'am.

14

All right.

15

Just like, like he's trying to throw them

And his hands were up?

16

up.

17

just turned around like this.

18
19
20

They wasn't all the way up like this, they was

(indicating)

In your mind, did it appear he was injured

or staggering or something?
A

Actually, at that time, no, ma'am.

The

21

only way I could see is once he just hit, hit the

22

ground.

23

Okay.

But at the time that the officer

24

fired those successive shots, he had his hands up,

25

was his palms facing,

you know, the officer?

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Grand Jury, Volume XII


October 13, 2014
Page 123

Yes.

And the officer shot?

(Shakes head.)
And when you saw the officer get out of

the car, what was the officer's demeanor, or how was

he standing or walking?

Actually, he was running.

Did he have his gun out?

Drawn, he was running with the gun drawn

10

past the car,

11

and that's when I saw, and he just fell to the

12

ground.

13

just drawn.

Okay, all right.

I heard the three shots

Now, at some point,

14

well, two things.

One, at some point I think you

15

told the FBI agent, you remember interviewing with

16

them?

17

Yes, ma'am.

18

And the police officer too,

19

I think you

interviewed with that day; is that right?

20

Just a detective.

21

Detective?

22

Yes, ma'am.

23

That you blacked out, at what point did

24
25

you black out?


A

Actually, when I went down for a short

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Page 124

period of time, when I hit and I went down, that was

it.

looking.

And then I instantly got up and I got to

Okay.

Describe for us what you mean when

you say blacked out because that can mean different

things.

Actually,

went blank like.

was just like,

I just went, basically,

I mean,

I can't describe it.

just like a blank like,

hear, but everything just went blank.

11

explain it.

12

just say I was more shocked than anything.

14
15

I was in just shock.

It

I could still

10

13

just

I can't even

I probably could

When you said blacked out, you mean

shocked?
A

Just -- just -- blanked out a little bit.

16

I really can't explain it, but I just lost focus,

17

you could just say that,

18

little bit.

19

20

if

I was just like down a

Were you aware of what was going on during

this period that you blacked out as you describe it?

21

For a short period of time, no, no, ma'am.

22

Okay.

23

It was real short, it was short enough to

How short a period of time?

24

where that I could see everything else.

It was

25

short, it wasn't like I was down there for a long

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Grand Jury, Volume XII


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Page 125

period of time.

mean, after the second shot.

Okay.

Probably after the first shot,

After the second shot you blacked

out for a short period of time?

Yeah, a short period.

Less than five seconds?

It was short, it was just like a, like a

shocking type of thing.

Seconds we're talking?

10

Yes, ma'am, seconds.

11

And then you get back up, you are looking

12

out the rear view and you see Mike Brown turn around

13

with his hands up and the officer fires several

14

shots at him?

15

Yes, ma'am.

16

What happened then when Mike Brown fell

Actually, he fell to the ground.

17
18

19

down?
I saw

that and basically that's was it, that was it.

20

What did you do?

21

Actually,

22

So when you saw him fall to the ground,

23

I took off.

which way did he fall, how did he fall rather?

24

Just face first.

25

Face first.

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Page 126

Just down, flat down to the ground.

So when you saw that, you drove off?

Not instantly drove off, but yes,

driving off.

coming towards my way.

7
8

9
10

I was

That was when the other officers was

Were you able to drive with the other

officers coming your way?


A

Yes, ma'am,

just up the curb a little bit,

I did go up on the sidewalk, up on the curb just a


little bit, up on the grass.

11

Can you show us on this map?

12

It was probably like just up on the curb.

13

I know I was close to an apartment building, but

14

just up on a curb like the grass.

15

Like around the police car?

16

Yeah, like around, yes, ma'am because I

17

was blocked in there.

18

just up a little bit and then just take off down the

19

street.

20
21
22
23

Okay.

So I had to just slide my car

So you didn't see the officer

shooting at Brown as he was running away?


A

Urn,

I know the gun was drawn.

That was

when the second shot was fired.

24

Is that no?

25

Yes, ma'am.

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Grand Jury, Volume XII


October 13, 2014
Page 127

Okay.

Tell us what Dorian was doing at

your car and when, at some point he tried to get a

ride from you; is that right?

Yes, ma'am.

Tell us about that?

At the time the confrontation is going on.

What part of the confrontation?

When they first started at the SUV.

the first gunshot, that is when Dorian ran.

When
I guess

10

he ducked down,

I didn't even know where he come

11

from.

12

because he had my passenger door wide open so he can

13

get down and that's when I seen Dorian like right

14

there like on the sidewalk.

15

side and that's when he was telling me, get me away

16

from here, it's crazy.

I just know when

had the door open,

Like he crawled on the

18

Yes, ma'am, to me.

19

Had Michael Brown been shot dead at that

21

No, ma'am, he wasn't shot dead.

22

Did you give Dorian a ride?

23

No, ma'am,

24

Why not?

25

Actually,

20

time?

I sure didn't.

I didn't know what was going on.

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Grand Jury, Volume XII


October 13, 2014
Page 128

1
2
3

I just told him to get down, that was my concern.


Q

Okay.

Did you ever see Michael Brown with

a weapon?

No, ma'am.

Did he ever appear to be going for a

weapon like, you know, grabbing at his body like he

was getting ready to get a gun or something?

No.

Did you ever see Dorian with a weapon?

10

No.

11

Did it appear to you that the officer was

12

threatening, that his life was threatened by Michael

13

Brown at any time that you could see?

14

No, ma'am.

15

But you don't know exactly what was going

16

on at the car?

17

At the SUV at that time.

18

You don't know what exactly because you

19

could just see feet?

20

Yes, ma'am.

21

When Michael Brown was running away going

22

east on Canfield Drive, did the officer seem to be

23

threatened by Michael Brown?

24

Urn, no, ma'am, not to what I can see.

25

When Michael Brown turned around with his

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Grand Jury, Volume XII


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Page 129

hands up, did the officer seem threatened by him to

you?

No, ma'am.

And you said you did not see Michael Brown

charge at the officer?

No, ma'am,

I did not.

Or attempt to pull a weapon from

somewhere?

No.

10

He appeared unarmed to you?

11

Yes.

12

Have you ever blacked out before?

13

Urn, actually no,

I mean, no.

Because I

14

have never been around nothing like that before in

15

my life, so, no,

16
17

I can't say.

When you blacked out, you mean in shock

you said?

18

Just basically like in shock.

19

know what's going on,

20

it.

21
22

same time,

23
24
25

like I said,

Do you think,

Just don't

I can't explain

I don't want to talk at the

I'm sorry,
Do you think you lost consciousness,

you know what I mean?


A

Like I said,

I don't know.

I mean,

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Grand Jury, Volume XII


October 13, 2014
Page 130

can't explain.

2
3

And, again, how long do you think it was

that you were blacked out?

Like seconds.

How many seconds?

Urn, probably about two, one or two

seconds.

MS. WHIRLEY:

10
11

Okay.
I don't have anything else.

MS. ALIZADEH:

I just have a couple of

questions.

12

(By Ms. Alizadeh) Miss

hi, this

13

is Kathi Alizadeh.

On the day that this happened,

14

I'm going to move over here so you don't have to

15

keep looking around.

16

which was a Saturday on August 9th, it was around

17

the noon hour when this happened, do you recall

18

that?

On the day that this happened,

19

Yes.

20

Like middle of the day?

21

Yes.

22

And you left, you got out of there before

23

the police could question you; is that right?

24

Yes.

25

And where did you go immediately after

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