Darren Wilson Transcript15

State of Missouri v.
Darren Wilson
Grand Jury, Volume XVIII
November 3,2014
Page 108
1
that was immediately before the August 9th entry?
Before August 9th?
Yeah?
August 8th.
And before that?
It is August 7th.
7
8
It goes the 6th, 5th,
believe it started on the 1st.

Q
Do you make an entry every day in your
journal?
10
Yes.
11
This is to help you remember things?
12
Correct.
13
Wouldn't you agree with me, though, that
14
most of your other entries don't really have much to
15
do with what happened that day, but maybe just like
16
I had a headache today?
17
That's what, pretty much.
18
So your entry,
I'm not going to read them,
19
but your entry from August 1st you have a 2:00 p.m.
20
and 5:00 p.m. and midnight about going to a meeting,
21
about having a headache?
22
Oh, no,
23
Okay.
24
25
I went to the casino with my mom.

About having a headache, going out
with the girls?

A
FAX 314-241-6750
Yes.
Gore Perry Reporting and Video

314-241-6750
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State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

November 3,2014
Page 109
1
All right.
So can you read for the grand
jurors then your entry, well, let me ask you this,
what's the next entry after August 9th, is it
August 10th?
Yes.
All right.
So can you read starting with,
you know, August 9th, Saturday, 8:00 a.m. and read
for the grand jurors what you wrote in your journal?
10
For August 9th?

MS. ALIZADEH:
I will provide copies of
11
this for everybody.
I didn't have enough time to
12
make copies for everybody right now.
13
August 9th.
14
The 4:00 p.m. entry or the entire day?
15
(By Ms. Alizadeh) Entire day?
16
8:00 a.m., August 9th, Saturday, 8:00 a.m.
Yes,
17
Well, I'm going to do my random drive up to
18
Florissant, need to understand the black race better
19
so I stop calling blacks --
20
Niggers, is that what you wrote?
21
Yes.
22
Okay.
23
And start calling them people.
My dad
24
always said you can't bear or hate an entire race
25
because of what one man did 40 years ago.
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All right.
And then you have an entry at
4:00 p.m.
August 9th?
Yes.
What did you write then?
OMFG.
Is that, oh, my fucking God?
Yes.
We're all adults here.
10
Is that the next entry for the
I think we've all
heard the words.
11
It was crazy, I don't even know where I
12
was.
I did ask a QT guy for directions, but went
13
the wrong way.
14
ended up in some apartment complex.
15
directions again, real nice kid in a wife beater, or
16
wife beater.
17
green shirt and jeans, that guy was really sweet.
18
Then I heard a weird noise, caught my attention.
19
was this cop backing up saying something to these
20
boys.
21
I just wanted to take a drive and
He had no idea.
I asked for
He asked the guy in
It
I couldn't hear, but they was the
22
same kids I almost hit with my car, a big one and
23
skinny one and the cop tried getting out and the big
24
one hit the door and the cop looked pissed and tried
25
opening the door again.
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The big kid hit the door, wait a
minute, the big kid hit the door with his gut, the
little one punched the mirror and something gold
fell on the ground.
The big one is half in the window,
door, I can't remember.
the cops leg.
guy in the green shirt -- I swear --
I swear the little one had
I heard a noise, not sure what the
Start again, I heard a noise, start again
10
with that sentence, the beginning of that sentence,
11
I heard a noise.
12
I heard a noise.
Not sure what the guy in
13
the green shirt was yelling.
14
green guy, the green shirt was yelling stop.
15
big kid pulled his pants up, they was tan shorts and
16
he started running.
17
opposite direction.
18
Not sure what the

The
The skinny one took off in the
The cop got out with his left hand on
19
his face and his right hand on the gun.
20
screamed, but I could not understand everyone else,
21
everyone was screaming.
22
ass down, I think that was the lady next to me.
23
cop was wobbling, the big kid turned around and had
24
his arms out with an attitude and the cop just stood
25
there.
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The cop
I heard, lay your stupid

The
Dang, if that kid didn't start running right

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at the cop like a football player, head down.
I heard three bangs, but the big kid
wouldn't stop.
I heard the cop say something, but
not sure what or if it was just that, he was just
making noise.
The cop took a couple of steps
forward and then backwards and then the gun went off
two more times.
head.
10
The last one on top of the kids'
OMG the blood.
The green shirt man grabbed
my arm and said, get your ass out of here.
11
I got in my car and drove into the
12
neighborhood.
13
across the street and back to the main road, not
14
sure how long, but police were every place with
15
police tape.
16
Somehow I went through a parking lot
There were other cops there.
I seen
17
one pull his gun, but he didn't fire.
18
remember when he got there.
19
parking lot of QT.
20
the closest highway, she points and I left.
21
top shit off,
22
way and had to ask for directions again.
23
old man helped me out, home now, no cable, so not
24
sure what's on the news.
25
FAX 314-241-6750
Don't even
There was a lady in the
I just pulled up and asked for

Then to
I got on the highway going the wrong

Real nice
And then you have another entry on that

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date that's at 9:00 p.m.?
Yes.
Read that?
Talked to
without telling him everything.
Talked to
without telling him everything.
He told me first I
was nuts for taking a drive up there, and second, to
keep my mouth shut.
will believe me anyway.
10
All right.
He's probably right, no one
So do you recall,
you already
11
testified that you remember me telling you that I
12
wanted you to contact this
13
and have her call me?
14
Right.
15
And did you ever do that?
16
No.
17
Why not?
18
Because even though I intended,
I had
19
thought I could probably stop by and visit with her
20
or meet up with her, she did not know I was coming.
21
22
So she could not corroborate that you were
coming up to North County that day?
23
Correct.
24
You write in this statement a lot of
25
detail, you testified to some of that detail and
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some additional detail.
And you admitted that you
watched the news or that you looked on the internet
about some of this stuff after it happened, right?
Correct.
Were you intrigued by what had happened up
6
7
in Canfield after the fact?

A
What do you mean intrigued?
I had no
interest.
You researched it a little bit?
10
I researched the streets to figure out how
11
12
I got there and how I got home.

Q
Well, you remember when you talked to the
13
FBI agent, you told them you did some searches, put
14
in Michael Brown?
15
16
17
18
Right,
I was trying to figure out what
that gold thing was that fell.

Q
You read an article on the internet that
talked about a gold bracelet that was at the scene?
19
Correct.
20
And so you, then now,
is it now that you
21
think that it was a bracelet that came off of his
22
wrist?
23
Because of what I read?
24
Yes?
25
Yes.
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I didn't know what it was at that

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2
3
time, it was just something gold.

Q
That was something that you said came off
of Dorian or the skinny kid's wrist?
Correct.
And is it possible, ma'am, that after this
happened and you read a lot of stuff about it
online, that maybe you, in your mind it is real to
you, that you were up there and,
weren't?
in fact,
you
10
What?
11
Do you think it's possible you believe you
12
were up there, but what you read on the internet you
13
really weren't up there?
14
15
16
I was up there and I wrote it before it
ever even hit the news.

Q
All right.
Is it possible, do you think,
17
that you dreamed about this after it happened and it
18
feels real to you that you were up there?
19
I never dreamed about it.
20
Does your medication ever make you
21
perceive things that aren't there or does your
22
condition ever cause you to perceive things that
23
aren't real?
24
I know what reality is.
25
Okay.
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That's my question.

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Some mental
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health issues cause people to have, it is called
psychotic break, where you don't know, you don't
perceive reality the way it really is.
you in the past has your mental health issues ever,
have you ever had a problem with that?
7
8
My only problem is mania.
I'm asking
I haven't had a
major problem since I moved out of where I grew up.

Q
And it is your truthful testimony today
that you were up there and you witnessed what you
10
testified about and what you told the FBI agents
11
that you were really there?
12
That I was really there, yes.
I would go
13
on more what is in this thing than what I would on
14
what I said in the past.
15
As you sit here today, do you have a
16
recollection of what you saw up there or you relying
17
on what you wrote in my journal?
18
I'm relying on what I wrote in my journal.
19
When you testified on October 23rd, were
20
you testifying from your recollection of that day,
21
or were you relying on having reviewed your journal?
22
23
24
Having read on the internet.

MS. ALIZADEH:
Sheila, do you have any
questions?
25
FAX 314-241-6750
MS. WHIRLEY:
Can I see your folder?

314-241-6750
As I
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recall, do you know Darren Wilson, the officer
involved here?
I know of him.
(By Ms. Whirley) Had you ever met him
before this date?
No.
I don't have your transcript in front of
me, but I recall when you were here before there was
talk about you raising money or starting a website,
10
11
fundraiser for Darren?

A
Yes, ma'am, but it is not for Darren
12
Wilson.
We have local elementary schools making
13
Christmas cards.
14
I think you said first responders?
15
First responders, yes, ma'am.
But the
16
current thing we are collecting donations is all
17
LEO's that have been dealing with the long hours.
18
When did that start?
19
I want to say the end of August, beginning
20
of September.
It started because of this.
21
That's what I'm asking?
22
Yes.
23
So because of this, you wanted to raise
24
money for first responders, which would include
25
Darren Wilson?
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Not him personally, it is whoever who have
been working the long hours, which would have been
the Ferguson, County, LEO long hours with minimum
days off.
Okay.
It is not donations to give them cash, it
will be homemade Christmas cards and then some gift
certificates to local area restaurants.
Okay.
And you also mentioned that you
10
felt that Darren Wilson was doing his job by killing
11
Mike Brown?
12
Did I say that or did I say it in
13
Do you recall saying that at all?
14
I wouldn't be at all surprised, it sounds
15
something ignorant that I would have said online,
16
yes.
17
18
Is that because you were, you feel that
black people should be killed?
19
No, no,
20
Okay.
21
22
I'm sorry.
No,
I don't think, no.
And I again, does anybody have her
transcript handy?
A
I know what I said.
23
I'm
24
having a hard time figuring out how did you end up
25
in Canfield Green Apartments.
FAX 314-241-6750
So let's go back and

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take me, you get up in the morning, and you want to
go to a random black neighborhood?
Correct.
I picked Florissant because I
knew a friend that lived up there, or at least I
thought I did.
6
7
8
So you stopped at, okay,

can you tell me how did you get up to the QuikTrip?
A
From the highway?
9
10
11
From your location, which

I'm thinking is
A
No,
I live
Correct.
12
13
14
15
How did you get there?

A
I don't know.
16
17
18
You don't know?

A
Not any more.
gave me a GPS the next day.
19
20
21
So then you end up at this

QuikTrip and you ask for directions?
A
Correct.
22
23
24
I have a GPS now, my mom
Okay.
Directions to what
you just said?

A
25
FAX 314-241-6750
To the nearest highway.

You just said the

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November 3,2014
Page 120
didn't know you was coming?
2
3
Correct.
I asked for directions back to
the nearest highway.
You said nearest highway?
Highway, yes.
They told you --
6
7
They told me one way and I went the other
way.
9
10
11
Which way did you go?

A
I believe it was to the left and then to
the left again.
12
13
14
And you did what, you

turned around?
A
No,
I ended up in the complex.
15
You can't figure out how
16
you got there, but you can figure out how you got
17
inside the apartment complex?
18
19
From QT.
I don't know how I got from
to where I was, no.
20
MS. ALIZADEH:
Can I interrupt here, don't
21
spend much time looking for a transcript because I'm
22
thinking maybe we don't have one.
23
in my folder.
24
is catching what's being said and I will double
25
check to see if we have one, but I'm kind of
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I don't have one
And so I want to make sure everybody

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thinking we don't.
That would explain why no one
can lay their hands on one.
interrupt, but I didn't want anybody looking for
something that wasn't there.
5
6
7
neighborhood, did you find it?

A
Did I find it?
Okay you just kind of

A
I know
the time I thought
12
the address I have
lives in Florissant, but at

lived off of Florissant and
13
15
16
You already stated that

your intentions was notes to see
A
Correct.
21
What I said was that was not the
MS. ALIZADEH:
A
About when?
I was going up there
19
20
intent, but that -- can you reread what I said?
17
18
Yes, turned out to be
Ferguson.
11
14
I'm sorry to
So this random black
9
10
All right,
To find a random
neighborhood.
A
I'm sorry?
22
Okay.
23
Let her finish talking and then you ask her again
24
what you want her to answer.
25
her because we don't understand what you say or what
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she say.
MS. ALIZADEH:
And that is true.
Also for
the court reporter because he can't, it is very
tough for him to take it down when people are
talking at the same time.
So go ahead, continue.
I'm just
getting to the point where you said you were going
to find a random black neighborhood and then you
just made a statement you were looking for
10
that lived in Florissant.
11
which one is it?
12
I'm trying to figure
That's not the reason I went up there.
13
went to find the random black neighborhood like my
14
journal says.
15
neighborhood because of
16
was anywhere in the area or that I was coming.
Then I thought,
17
18
I picked that
had no idea that I
You picked the

neighborhood before you left
19
20
I mean,
Correct.
I picked the general vicinity,
yes.
21
When
22
you are reading your journal from 4:00, basically
23
what I have here is you explained what you saw, and
24
it wasn't a lot of previous statements that you said
25
before, a lot of it was different.
FAX 314-241-6750

314-241-6750
But in your
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journal you said the little one had the cops leg?
Correct, that's what I remember at the
time that I wrote this.
Okay.
I don't know where that came in.
Okay.
make sure, you know,
confused and it helps us.
10
And I just want to
I understand that you are
I know it sounds like I'm lying too,
that's why --
11
I don't think you are
12
lying,
13
confused.
14
look at me and tell me, what you are telling us --
15
16
I believe you are confused,

I understand that.
I think you are
I want to know,
just
Yes, ma'am.
Is you saw Michael Brown
17
charging the officer without a doubt in your mind.
18
This young man didn't have a reason to do this, so
19
could you have been mistaken about what you saw?
20
21
the officer like a football player.
22
Okay.
23
24
It looked to me like he was going after
Did I know what I was seeing at the time?
No.
25
FAX 314-241-6750
Okay.
So your perception

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is that he was charging the officer, but you don't
know for sure exactly what was going on.
lost, you were out of your surroundings?
Correct.
5
6
You were
So you can't really say

exactly what was going on?
Correct.
And also, according to my
journal, I guess the recollection of the officer's
talking to the two boys before he backed up was what
10
I read online and not what I seen.
11
So you think there could
12
have been, and you have said this, there is a lot of
13
blurry lines there as far as what you read and what
14
you really saw.
15
bullet points about what you think you saw on that
16
day and this was at 4:00, so this was after a three
17
and a half hour time frame when you are trying to
18
find your way home, you are trying to find,
19
getting lost in the neighborhood.
20
So all you have to do is these
you are
I'm not saying you are lying,
21
(sic)
22
want you to understand what you're saying could have
23
been misunderstood.
24
I'm really not.
25
FAX 314-241-6750
I think you are confused.
I suppose, yes.
Okay.
Thank you.

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Was this
the first time that you had done sort of an
exploration of a predominantly African-American
community?
previous statements
Do you have other journals about
Yes,
I do it all the time.

How often?
9
10
a month for years.
And there's other days in this
journal as well that I did it, even after this date.
11
12
Urn, probably about twice, two, three times
MS. WHIRLEY:
What's the last date of your
For written,
I don't think it was the last
journal?
13
14
day of August,
15
skipped a weekend too somewhere in here.
16
August 30th was the last day.
17
18
I think I skipped the last day.
MS. WHIRLEY:
They are not consecutive
days that you write in your journal, correct?
19
It went every day in a row except there
20
is,
21
so I didn't write it on the 23rd.
22
MS. ALIZADEH:
23
24
25
I believe, it skips from the 22nd to the 24th,
So they are consecutive,
but not daily?

A
Right, because like on August 22nd, the
22nd I decided to take
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didn't get
home until Sunday, so I didn't write in it Saturday.

MS. WHIRLEY:
Can you remind us how you
first came to give your statement to the police or
the FBI?
How I came about it?

(By Ms. Whirley)
you find them or what happened?
No, rna' am,
10
Who did you call?
11
I don't remember.
12
the
13
14
Did they come find you,
I called them.
It might have been just
non emergency number.

Q
You called the police.
What day was it
that you called them?
15
I don't know.
16
Did you not journal it?
17
Wait a minute, it wouldn't have been until
18
September.
I think it wasn't until the first week
19
of September.
20
You didn't journal in September?
21
No,
I don't have September's with
22
me.
23
the beginning of September.
24
25
I mean,
I did.
I don't believe I contacted them until
But you're not sure when you contacted
them?
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Correct.
All right.
And so you contacted the
police and how did you talk to them, did they come
to you or did you come to them or on the phone or
what?
I went to them.
I believe it was here,
no,
it was down the street at the headquarters, not
the two court buildings, but.
9
10
or was it all of them?
11
12
15
16
17
No, it was the police.
The FBI, there was
a gentleman there from the FBI.
13
14
It was the county police and not the FBI
When you call the police, what do you tell
I don't remember, it would have been in
them?
the effect of what I've seen.

Q
It is our understanding you did not see
18
what happened initially when Mike Brown was at the
19
police car?
20
Not the first time, no.
21
Did you tell them that you saw it?
22
I might have,
23
So sometimes you tell the truth and
24
25
I don't remember.
sometimes you don't?

A
FAX 314-241-6750
I told them what I remember and what I had

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read online at that point had become jumbled.
truth?
So you don't know when you're telling the
I know what I had seen and what I had
No.
read online for the first day itself right prior to
going up there would have became jumbled, and than I
would have gotten facts confused because my memory
would have been gone as far as what I truly seen
every detail.
10
My question to you, you're not sure when
11
you are telling the truth and when you are telling
12
something that you may have just read?
13
No,
I know when I'm telling the truth.
14
So were you telling the truth when you
15
said you saw Michael Brown at the car or is that
16
something you read?
17
That was something, the first time?
18
Whenever?
19
At the car is something I read.
The
20
second time he was at the car after the officer
21
backed up is where I started paying attention and
22
watching.
23
24
initially?
25
FAX 314-241-6750
Okay.
So you were not telling the truth
Okay.
I'm sorry.

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You either were telling the truth or you
weren't?
I guess not, no.
Okay.
It was not set out to be an intent lie.
Do you consider yourself a racist?
Do I consider myself to be racist?
don't.
What is a racist in your opinion?
10
In my opinion somebody like, honestly?
11
Please?
12
Somebody that would harm or say it to
No,
13
their face or harm them physically or, you know,
14
like the KKK, that is not right.
15
So the KKK would be racist?
16
In my opinion, yes.
17
Are you affiliated with the KKK?
18
No, ma'am.
19
Do you know any KKK members?
20
No.
21
So when you just use derogatory language
22
towards another group of people, that's not racist
23
to you?
24
25
It is racist, but I don't,
towards white people too.
FAX 314-241-6750
I say it
Use it like the B word,

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like bitch.
3
4
I mean, when you use the word nigger, you
don't think that's being racist?

A
I do think it is being racist, yes.
have a racist vocabulary.
harm anybody just because of a race.
I would never in my life
Well, because Michael Brown was a black
young man and I guess that's a nigger in your
opinion.
10
If he's black, is that what you mean by
nigger?
11
When I seen him, he was nothing more than
12
a kid.
13
When you say nigger, my turn.
14
Sorry.
15
When you say nigger, is that related to
16
black people, white people or what people are you
17
referring to?
18
Assholes,
I don't know.
I don't mean it.
19
I just need to know when you use the word
20
nigger, who are you referring to.
21
white people or referring to black people?
22
23
ma'am.
24
25
You referring to
I refer it to a lot of white people, yes,
When you write nigger in your book, nigger
on your blog or your internet communications, what
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people were you talking about?
2
3
At that time I was talking about black
people.
Okay.
Okay.
So you talking about black people now,
That's all I'm trying to find out.
Michael Brown was black, right?
Yes, ma'am.
And you said the officer was doing his job
10
killing him, right?
11
Yes.
12
Okay.
And you feel like you need to help
13
the officer, is that why you're here, you want to
14
make the officer look better than he looks and make
15
Michael Brown look like a nigger?
16
No.
17
If it is true?
18
All I want is the truth, no, no.
19
He's dead?
20
I don't wish anybody dead.
21
what color you are,
22
are.
23
24
25
I don't care
I don't care what gender you
When you said the officer did his job by
killing the young man?

A
FAX 314-241-6750
That wasn't all that though, a lot of it

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was because of what I had seen.
was in that situation I probably would have ended up
shooting him too.
I feel that if I
You said you didn't see what happened at
the car, you saw him come toward him like a football
player.
then.
should have killed him because he was a nigger?
You are not even sure what was going on

So not knowing what was going on, you felt he
10
black.
At that time, no, it is not because he was
11
MS. WHIRLEY:
Nothing else from me.
12
You have
13
memory issues you said, short term memory.
14
that memory kind of go away after you sleep or
15
throughout the day you have lunch and not remember
16
you have lunch or would it be the next day that you
17
kind of have memory lapses?
18
Now, I remember I've eaten.
Does
Like for
19
several years, yes, because I went from 195 down to
20
120 because I would forget if I ate or not.
21
Now that it has been a number of
22
years, usually it is the details of a situation.
23
have to meet you, hear your name, talk to you every
24
day.
25
next to that I have lived next door two and a half
There's still next door neighbors that I live
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years I still can't remember their name.
seconds after you tell me.
It will go
Your journal entry 4:00
p.m. has a lot of detail in it.
memory must have been pretty good from that point
after you got home.
Yes, no,
Seems like, your
it is not so much that as it has
to be really traumatic.
name,
Like I won't remember your
if I see you outside, if we take a break,
I go
10
out there to smoke and I see you,
there's a
11
99 percent chance I won't recognize you.
12
probably, if you are smoking I would walk right up
13
to you and say hello and not realize that I had just
14
talked to you in here.
I will
15
If something major happens like I can
16
give you in detail from two weeks ago when a dog got
17
hit by a car because it was horrible thing to watch,
18
but.
19
Now,
20
you had said before that you had
21
visited other African-American or black communities,
22
like three a month, or something like that
23
sometimes, or whatever, but -- or three a day?
24
25
FAX 314-241-6750
Three a month.
I'm confusing myself.

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Okay.
Can you tell me,

A
Correct.
So you would be coming
from that point all the way up to where you got off
on West Florissant.
period of time or afterwards, after this shooting,
what black neighborhoods you visited?
Can you tell me during this
That day or?

Since then?
10
Since then.
I spend a lot of time off of
11
Grand close to Shaw.
12
spend a lot of time down in those areas.
13
14
I spent a lot of time down in those
15
areas and we will go and talk to people and then the
16
Central West End.
17
Okay.
18
Anywhere else?
There is one that right across the JB
19
Bridge and something called Bellview, Belleville,
20
bell something, but I'm not sure.
21
Got me,
22
23
24
I don't go that
far.
A
I used to live in East St. Louis.
I know
that area a little bit.
25
FAX 314-241-6750
Uh-huh, okay.

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Just to
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clarify the reason between
and go north.
Correct.
4
5
when you get on
You cut off on

and what you got over there you have your
6
7
Yes,
I used to live in
8
9
Is that right, what

street?
10
In those
11
brand knew.
when they were first
We were one of the
12
13
14
15
Uh-huh.
A
We moved out, we were there
we moved out
16
17
18
19
Okay.
A
We had just moved out like just a few days
prior to that situation.
20
I see.
21
name of the street you lived on?
22
23
was the name of the
I don't.
24
25
Dang it.
Do you recall the
Okay.
A
FAX 314-241-6750
Dang it, and I remember I think it was,

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2
that
worked in the office.
Uh-huh.
3
4
You know,
I do remember the
Uh-huh.
6
7
8
9
10
But I could never come up with the
address.
11
Those
12
on
13
there, they used to call it
are built
When we used to
14
15
16
I used to have friends in there before the

when I was a teenager.
17
I understand.
The reason
18
why I ask, there is a lot of black communities from
19
where you are to where you get up to where you were,
20
you could of made a stop in some of these black
21
communities?
22
23
24
25
I've been in there.

Have you been anywhere
else?
A
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I could not tell you where it was or how I

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got there until this, because my mom gave me a GPS.
I have not gone as much north since then.
spent more time in the city.
I have
Uh-huh.
Those same apartments you
said you grew up there as a teenager?
No,
I didn't grow up
had a friend that lived in
at the
10
and I worked
and I would take
my friends home all the time.
11
So, I mean,
12
I drove through
throughout my teenage years taking friends or
13
picking them up and taking them home.
14
actually move to
15
were built.
I didn't
until those
I have no idea what year it was.
16
You said in your journal
17
during your 8:00 a.m. entry, you said that you were
18
going to go try to find a black neighborhood too, so
19
you could associate better with black people because
20
your dad said you should not judge one race of
21
people based on something that happened four years
22
ago.
23
24
25
40.
What happened 40 years
ago that would cause you to have any kind of
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2
contention of this type,
40 years you talking?
3
4
Okay.
10
11
12
You do still have them?

I don't want to see them.
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
MS. ALIZADEH:
questions?
23
Does anybody have any other
No, okay.
(End of the testimony of
24
25
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of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to
testify the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid,
deposes and says in reply to oral
interrogatories, propounded as follows, to-wit:
EXAMINATION
MS. ALIZADEH:
This is Kathi Alizadeh.
We
just had a short break and so now we are resuming
10
our afternoon session.
Sheila Whirley is present,
11
as well as all 12 grand jurors and the witness is
12
here and we're going to, as well as the court
13
reporter who is taking down what's being said.
14
BY MS. ALIZADEH:
15
Could you state your name, please?
16
17
What is your occupation, sir?
18
At this time I'm the assisting St. Louis
19
County Emergency Communications Commission with
20
deployment of the new 800 megahertz radio system in
21
St. Louis County.
22
23
24
25
So what are your duties and
responsibilities in that position?

A
At this time I'm assisting law enforcement
disciplines with the installation, design and
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programming of their radios.
And how long have you had that position?
Two years.
Prior to that, where were you employed?
I was employed with St. Louis Electronics,
they are a Motorola dealer, was with them for 17
years.
radio distributor.
10
Prior to that, another three years with a
So has your entire career been in the law
enforcement radio communications business?
11
Right.
12
And do you have, well, can you tell the
13
14
Past 23 years, yes.
grand jurors about your educational background?

A
Sure.
I hold an associate's degree in
15
electronic technology in communications.
16
hold a ham radio licenses and an FCC license, which
17
gives me the opportunity to work on large
18
transmitters for like broadcasters and everything.
19
Twenty years ago that was one of the keynote things
20
that you had to have to be able to get into this
21
field.
22
I also
Recently they have kind of gone away
23
from it and have other things, but I had, when I was
24
with the Motorola dealer, Motorola very keen on
25
making sure their sales consultants and engineers
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had training.
updates on the new technology that was coming out.
So on a yearly basis I had to go for
So were you working for the, as a Motorola
salesperson back when the City of Ferguson got their
radio system installed.
Right.
Back then, and it has got to be
six, seven, I would have to look back, I replaced
their console, their dispatch console from a button
to a CTR, a computer driven dispatch console, which
10
is used just to dispatch and turn on the radio
11
transmitters along with filling in with some new
12
portable and mobile radios.
13
There is about a 10 to 12 year life
14
expectancy on mobiles and portables.
15
they needed new equipment and I sold them the new
16
equipment and also programmed it with the
17
frequencies that was needed.
18
19
20
At that time
And you think that that was about six
years ago or thereabouts?

A
Six to eight years.
They usually buy
21
different times of the year because of their
22
budgets.
23
and next year five radios.
24
mobile radios.
25
FAX 314-241-6750
One year they might budget for ten radios

The following year new
So it was at least before August of 2014,

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correct?
Definitely.
And so do you think, are you familiar with
the radio system that the Ferguson Police Department
uses?
Yes.
Okay.
And, urn, are you aware that
Ferguson dispatches for themselves?
Yes.
10
And so what does that mean, what does a
11
dispatcher, and explain what it means when a
12
municipality may dispatch for themselves as opposed
13
to something else.
14
Well, they take the 911 call, they're
15
considered a peace effort.
16
answering point, they take the 911 calls, they look,
17
they usually have a CAD system, computer added
18
dispatch piece of software that they type in the
19
address and they assign it at car and that car is
20
then dispatched through the console, radio console.
21
It is a public safety
And so I understand that this is all done
22
with computers, but there is a person who is the
23
dispatcher, correct?
24
Correct.
25
All right.
FAX 314-241-6750
And so now do all

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2
municipalities dispatch for themselves?

A
No, in Ferguson's case they have Country
Club Hills and Calverton Park, and the new entity
Flordell Hills.
agencies also.
They dispatch for those three other
Are there some municipalities that you are
aware of where St. Louis County communications
dispatches for some municipalities?
Off the top of my head, there is like 23
10
different agencies that they dispatch their
11
departments.
12
Okay.
So let's get some, I guess,
13
vocabulary out of the way.
14
transmitter.
15
You talked about a
What is a transmitter?
Transmitter is basically a box and it has
16
a components for transmitting at different power
17
levels they are programmable it is also box
18
transmitter also is a receiver so it also receives
19
radio transmissions as well as when the dispatcher
20
keys up or pushes the talk button it turns
21
transmitter on and the voice goes out through the
22
transmitter.
23
24
25
Okay.
And where is the Ferguson Police
Department transmitter?
A
FAX 314-241-6750
It is on their back parking lot where

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there is a cell tower that's back there and their
tower and their antennas are on top of that tower.
At the bottom of this tower is a little shelter that
their transmitters are placed.
So the antenna is on a tower and the
transmitter is on a box inside the shelter?
Yes.
And then this is behind the Ferguson
Police Department?
10
Yes.
11
And so the console where the dispatcher
12
would sit, is that inside the Ferguson Police
13
Department?
14
Yes, and it's wired line out to the
15
transmitter.
16
And is that on a, like a phone line or?
17
It is like a phone line.
It is not going
18
through the phone system system's network, but it is
19
like a pair of Cat 5 or a twisted pair of wires that
20
are going out to the transmit site.
21
So the dispatcher can communicate via the
22
transmitter and she can receive,
23
I'm thinking of is a she, can receive communications
24
via the receiver?
25
FAX 314-241-6750
I say she, the one
Yes.

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All right.
And you mention portable and
mobile?
Right.
And so explain what a portable radio is?
A portable radio is what you see on the
officer.
a lot of them, a majority of them have what we call
a remote speaker mike, which you'll see right on
their shoulder that they can just key up the radio
10
It can be held in his hand to transmit, or
and talk and the walkie-talkie or portable radio is
l I o n their hips.
12
The mobile radio is mounted usually
13
inside the car and is usually a higher powered type
14
of road versus portable radio, which is a 5 watt
15
radio.
16
So I'm going to show you,
I haven't marked
17
it, it is simply for demonstration purposes, but is
18
this a mobile radio?
19
That's a portable.
20
Portable, see, I get mixed up.
I just
21
learned all of this last week.
22
radio?
23
Yes.
24
And this would be something that the
25
So this is portable
officer would wear?
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Yes.
And what is this part?
That is the remote speaker mike.
That can be worn on the epaulette on the
shoulder on the officer's uniform?
Correct.
And so does the, does this radio have a
transmitter in it?
Yes,
10
And does this radio have a receiver?
11
Yes.
12
What about the car radio, that's the
13
it does.
mobile radio?
14
Right.
15
Does that have a transmitter?
16
Yes.
17
Does that have a receiver?
18
Yes.
19
So when an officer is in a vehicle and
20
they have their mobile,
can they have their portable
21
radio and their mobile radio on at the same time?
22
Yes.
23
And can they have them on the same channel
24
25
at the same time?

A
FAX 314-241-6750
Yes.

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And what would happen if an officer tries
to transmit, for example, on his mobile mike, so the
car radio, while his portable is on and turned up?
You get a horrible squealing.
It is
called acoustic feedback,
and it's a horrible
squeal, it's like you're in a room and the
microphones are turned up real high and you get that
squealing noise, that's what the officer gets.
also at that time that is also being transmitted
10
back to the dispatcher.
11
turn your walkie down or turn your walkie off.
12
13
And
So she will sometimes say,
Again, so we can kind of, the walkie
refers to the portable radio?
14
Correct.
15
Okay.
And so can an officer be in his
16
vehicle and have his mobile radio on a particular
17
channel, but have his walkie on a different channel?
18
Yes.
19
And if he speaks on one of those radios,
20
do you get that squelch or that feedback?
21
No.
22
Okay.
23
24
25
Is there anyway for an officer, how
does an officer select a channel on the walkie?

A
He has, there's two buttons and the one on
the outer and this is usually a standard on all
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Motorola radios, the one on the outside is your on
and off button, and your volume control and then the
center one is your channel selector and it has
little ratchet clicking noise to it.
officers know by clicking it two or three times on
what channel they're on.
A lot of the
And so on this particular radio, the
buttons are different height, correct?
Correct.
Q
A
13
well?
A
15
16
And is it true that on all the Motorolas
channel selector is in the middle?
17
Yes.
18
And so, and then the other button you said
19
was an on/off and volume?
20
Yes.
21
And how many channels does a portable
22
23
24
25
radio, how many channels can that radio turn to?

A
Most of them all are 16 channels on the
channel selectors always usually 16.

Q
FAX 314-241-6750
Are there also 16 channels in the mobile

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radio?
Yes or more.
And that's in the vehicle?
Right.
So you said that the ones inside the
vehicle are usually a higher power?
Yes.
And so in Ferguson, do you know how high
of power the ones in the vehicle are?
10
They are 50 watts.
11
And what is the power of the handheld?
12
That's 5 watts.
13
Okay.
14
channel.
And so let's talk about the RIOT
You familiar with the RIOT channel?
15
Yes,
16
And so can you, what does RIOT stand for,
17
18
19
I am.
it doesn't mean it is just for riots?

A
Correct.
It is Radio Operability, Radio
Interoperability Tactical.
20
So it's an acronym?
21
Yes.
22
So what is the purpose of the RIOT
23
24
25
channel?
A
It is to be used for any type of events
that needs St. Louis County or any of the other
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municipalities to be able to communicate together in
some type of event.
4
5
6
7
All right.
And are you aware of how many
RIOT channels there are in St. Louis County?

A
There's a RIOT A, B, C, D and E, so a
total of five.
Q
Okay.
Now, when a police department
purchases and installs a radio system, are the
channels uniform throughout each municipality or
10
11
does each municipal decide what channels they want?

A
They mostly decide which one they want.
12
There is mostly a standard that every radio has at
13
least RIOT A.
14
Some will just keep RIOT A their preference.
15
Some will put RIOT B in, some won't.
So would it be, for example,
I'm just
16
saying this, for example, like channel one might be
17
the dispatch channel?
18
19
20
21
That's always usually the dispatch
channel.
Q
Okay.
And then what other kind of
channels are there for the radio?
22
There's a mutual aid channel.
23
Mutual aid?
24
Right, which is once again kind of an
25
inoperability type of channel, most every radio
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within the state, mutual aid channel.
point-to-point and that's used for dispatchers to be
able to talk to other dispatch centers.
always in that as receive only.
for base station transmission only, no portable
radios can talk on it so they don't interfere with
the radio traffic being transmitted to each of the
different dispatch centers.
There's a
It is
The licenses set up
So if an officer has his radio on the
10
point-to-point channel, he can hear other
11
dispatchers that might be talking to each other?
12
As long as he's within the range of that
13
transmitter.
14
15
Okay.
We'll talk about the range in a
second, but that's the purpose of that?
16
Right.
17
They can hear it, but they can't transmit?
18
That's correct.
19
Okay.
And so what about the RIOT channel
20
now, how does that work.
21
channel, who can they talk to?
22
If someone got on the RIOT
Urn, as long as the neighboring
23
municipality, they have it set up to have some type
24
of DWI checkpoints or something like that, they
25
would use it.
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So if, for example, the president or
vice-president was going to visit St. Louis and the
St. Louis County Police Department was going to
provide security for that visit, would they use the
RIOT channel for a period of time?
7
8
Definitely they would secure that channel
for that event.

Q
And so if any municipality or anybody that
has these radios can talk on the RIOT channel, how
10
is it that they know not to use it if, for example,
11
there is a presidential visit?
12
There's pretty much a notice that goes out
13
through St. Louis County saying between this date
14
and this date, you know, that's going to be used for
15
the president coming to town.
16
up for the one golf tournament at one of the country
17
clubs that they do security with they might secure
18
that channel for that.
19
They even have it set
Ballwin Days, they would request the
20
St. Louis County, we have Ballwin Days going,
21
use the RIOT channel, and they usually approve it
22
unless there's something, an event that's going to
23
happen, they will reserve it.
24
25
can we
It can be used for preplanned events, what
about events that are not preplanned?
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That's kind of a go-to if you are on it
using it for an event and something larger comes,
everybody goes to a different channel.
So, for example, if there was a hostage
situation that was occurring in South County and the
County Police had mobilized and their attack unit
was on scene and various precincts maybe have been
called in for this situation.
something they would advise all of those officers to
10
11
12
13
Would that be
turn to the RIOT channel?

A
Definitely, that is the go-to channel
basically.
Q
So the theory is at that time the officers
14
that are using RIOT channel are all using it for the
15
same purpose, they all know what's going on, they
16
are there for that particular event?
17
Correct.
18
So now, let's talk about, we talked about
19
when possibly a call could be received and not
20
received.
21
of had to educate me on a lot of this, but we talked
22
about the fact that whether or not a call can be
23
received by somebody might, in part, be determined
24
by signal strength, correct?
25
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So given that the walkie-talkies?
5 watts.
5 watts.
That's a lower signal strength
than the mobile radios in the cars, correct?
Correct.
And then how many watts does the
7
8
9
10
11
dispatcher has?
A
The dispatcher, most of all in St. Louis
County their base stations, their transmitters are

at least 100 watts.
Q
Okay.
And so there is another thing that
12
might affect whether or not a transmission is
13
received is the distance away from the dispatch
14
transmitter that the radio is, correct?
15
Correct.
It is kind of a line of sight.
16
So anything in between this antenna and that
17
dispatch center can reduce the radio transmission to
18
that receiver.
19
trees, large thick trees, any steel structure
20
reduces that capability of that transmitter to get
21
to that receiver.
22
23
24
25
So if there is a building, even
What about the height of the antenna, does
that also affect the transmission?

A
Yes.
And especially if a portable radio.
Being on your hip can reduce that 5 watts to almost
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half if it is touching your body or if this officer
is a large person, that can really cut down the
power.
Okay.
So would it be uncommon then that
maybe an officer who is using his portable
walkie-talkie could callout and transmit something
and the dispatch not hear him?
Yes, very much so.
Okay.
Also, we talked about the different
10
powers and strengths of these radios, is it possible
11
for other officers when they're on say the dispatch
12
channel, can an officer in car A hear officer in car
13
B transmitting a call?
14
If he's close enough.
Only if he's close
15
enough within, you know, a range.
16
radio, it is usually a mile tops, not too much
17
unless you are out in Kansas, straight line, nothing
18
there, maybe a mile and a half or so.
19
very low power.
20
radio more than he would hear the portable radio.
21
On a portable
These are
He would probably hear the mobile
So to understand this, when someone in the
22
vehicle transmits on the mobile, and let's say they
23
are going to talk to another car, does that
24
transmission go from their mobile to the transmitter
25
tower behind the police station and then go back out
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2
3
4
to that car?
No, it is just radio to radio,
from mobile
radio to mobile radio.

And can you do that,
can you talk to other
cars when you are on the dispatch channel?
Yes.
Okay.
And when other cars are talking to
each other, can you hear that maybe when you are on
the dispatch channel?
10
Yes.
11
But I'm gathering that you might not hear
12
it depending on how far apart you are?
13
Correct.
14
And where the radio might be,
15
Correct.
16
And so, and we heard some testimony from
correct?
17
another officer who talked about like when he left
18
his police vehicle and went inside a residence for a
19
call, he might not hear transmissions that are being
20
made by dispatch because he's a distance from the
21
car and he's also on the walkie-talkie inside a
22
building?
23
Right.
If he's inside the building, the
24
mobile wouldn't have any factor on his portable
25
radio.
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to reduce the capability of receiving on that
portable.
Okay.
So it is possibility for a police
officer if he's using his walkie-talkie to transmit
a call, but that call might not be received by local
dispatch?
Correct.
And that has to do with all of those
factors we've talked about?
10
Correct.
11
Now, are you aware that when the Ferguson
12
dispatch receives calls or transmits calls that they
13
actually record those calls?
14
Yes.
15
So if the call is not, here is a question
16
I don't even think I asked you this last week.
17
a call is not received by a dispatcher,
18
anyway to tell if that call was ever made?
19
When
is there
No, because that recorder is connected to
20
the receive portion of the dispatch console.
21
whatever the dispatch console receives and hears,
22
that is when it is recorded.
23
Okay.
Is it possible, are there occasions
24
when a call is received like it is garbled or
25
there's, you know, static that would make it
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difficult or impossible to tell what's being said?
Definitely.
Okay.
Now,
let's talk about when an
officer is wearing his walkie for the portable radio
if his car is on the dispatch channel, we talked
about if he is in his car he can be on two different
channels, right?
Right.
If his car is on the dispatch channel and
10
his walkie-talkie gets switched to another channel,
11
does he get any kind of squelch or anything like
12
that?
13
No.
14
So that could happen, and if that were to
15
happen and he was unaware of the switch, he would
16
not know?
17
No.
18
Without looking down?
19
And looking --
20
At the collector?
21
Right.
22
Now,
23
I'm looking at the top of this
portable radio, there's an orange button here?
24
Right.
25
What is that orange button?
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When the officer presses that, it sends
out a data burst that is a number that has been
programmed in that radio.
4, it will send out that data burst.
decoded at the dispatch console and whatever they
decode it as, it could be the officer's name, it
could be the car number, it could be anything, an
alias associated to that radio.
that beat, it could be beat 104 that when he hits
10
So it could be 1, 2, 3,
It will be
It could be even to
that button it will come up on the screen.
11
Lights flash red and a horrible noise
12
of beeping goes off until that dispatcher hits the
13
console a couple times to silence it.
14
And so is there any information that is
15
transmitted other than what you said that might be
16
preprogramed to associate that radio is the who that
17
transmitted that.
18
19
20
21
22
Is there anything, can I push that

red button and then say something in there?
A
Yes, it also lets you to be able to
transmit.
Q
And this data burst that can happen if you
23
press that orange button, does that depend upon
24
those factors,
25
you're in a building or there's buildings between
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you and the transmitter, are those still factors?
Those are still factors.
That's also a radio signal?
Right.
And it's 5 watts when it comes from there?
Yes.
Okay.
When an officer is wearing this
type of radio and this is on his sleeve, if he has
it turned to,
10
for example, the dispatch channel, is
this also a speaker?
11
Yes.
12
So he can hear what's being transmitted?
13
Yes.
14
Does this have a speaker on it?
15
It does, but it is disabled once that
16
17
remote speaker mike is connected to the radio.

Q
So if you are in your vehicle and your car
18
vehicle is turning to the dispatch channel and this
19
is on the dispatch channel, does either of them
20
cancel each other out?
21
22
No, it is basically which one is turned up
the loudest is which one they are going to hear.
23
So you could hear both?
24
Yes.
25
If they were on different channels, could
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you hear different transmissions?
Yes, definitely.
But it would be if you keyed your mike,
that's when you get that squelch?
Correct.
So let's talk about what calls that might
walk over each other.
That is kind of a phrase that
I used, but is it possible if an officer is
transmitting from this type of a radio, a portable
10
radio, if someone else on that same channel keys in,
11
can that person talk over him possibly
12
Especially if it is on a car radio, it's
13
possible, but it's really whoever is closest to
14
Ferguson's transmit site on the dispatch channel.
15
It is called kind of a receiver capture effect.
16
that receiver in that base station, whatever hearing
17
is the strongest is what's going to be able to be
18
heard to the dispatcher.
So
19
However, if they mix then you get the
20
garbling sound and you might pick out, you know, 102
21
or you might pick out a little bit of radio traffic.
22
And that's when the dispatcher will usually say, car
23
102, go ahead with your traffic or something like
24
that, or too many cars calling in they usually state
25
but yes, it can happen.
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Okay.
Now let's talk about transmissions
on the RIOT channel.
you are on say RIOT A, if you are on RIOT A on your
radio, does that transmission go to Ferguson?
Do those transmissions when
No, St. Louis County does a series of
voting receivers and all they are receivers and they
are like ears.
that audio is sent down by phone line back to
another box here in Clayton called a comparator.
And the closest radio is picked up,
10
And that takes the best audio, not the transmission,
11
but the audio sound from that receiver and votes on
12
which one's the best, and the best audio, the
13
strongest audio signal will be heard to the recorder
14
and to the dispatcher sitting at that console
15
monitoring the RIOT A channel.
16
17
So the dispatcher monitoring the RIOT A
channel is here in Clayton, right?
18
Correct.
19
So it is not the Ferguson dispatcher who
20
is monitoring unless she chooses to do that?
21
Right.
22
And I think we talked about the fact that
23
a dispatcher has their dispatch channel and then
24
they have another selected --
25
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Unselected.
So they can now monitor two
different channels at once?
Correct.
And so, so, how many voting?
Voting receivers.
How many voting receivers are there in St.
7
8
9
Louis County?
A
Oh, just on the RIOT channel I'm going to
take a guess.
I don't have their information right
10
in front of me, but I want to say at least six or
11
seven.
12
Okay.
13
Throughout the county north, south, east
14
15
and west.
Q
And so, for example, if something is going
16
on down in South County, and the county police is
17
using the RIOT A channel because of this incident
18
that occurred.
19
the RIOT A channel when he's up in Ferguson, is it
20
possible that his transmission will not be received
21
by Clayton?
22
If a Ferguson officer calls in on
Yes, especially if the receiver down south
23
is hearing the transmission louder and it is being
24
sent in and being voted and voter, that transmission
25
will be just put on the side basically, won't even
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come through.
2
3
Will there be any record that that
transmission was made?
No.
So the voting receiver just measures the
strength and quality, audio quality of the call and
then the voting receiver then selects which call
they are going to put through?
Right.
10
And so is it possible then that somebody
l I o n a walkie-talkie in Ferguson could make a calIon

12
the RIOT A channel, if County Police were using the
13
RIOT A channel down at South County at the same time
14
and there were officers talking at the same time, is
15
it possible then that the Ferguson officer's call
16
would never get recorded in Clayton?
17
Very possible.
18
Is there anything that I haven't asked you
19
that I forgot about that is important?
20
No.
21
And just again if you all want to look at
22
this,
I will tell you that this is a radio from the
23
Ferguson Police Department.
24
Wilson's radio, but they have the same radios and
25
just for reasons that you might want to look at it.
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But don't try to calIon it because I have no idea
if it would work.
here, would it?
It probably wouldn't transmit in
Want to try it?
No.
MS. ALIZADEH:
I'll just kind of start
this around and Sheila, do you have any questions
for
(By Ms. Whirley) Well, it is just kind of
10
unnerving,
11
didn't say common, but how common is it for dispatch
12
not to receive calls?
13
I guess, so you are saying, maybe you
Urn,
it just depends on the radio traffic.
14
If it is really busy, a really busy day at that
15
municipality it can happen.
16
hope I'm not telling any secrets, one issue is one
17
of the county channels which is dispatched in West
18
County, they have Eureka, they have Chesterfield.
19
They are so far away that Eureka officer could be
20
keying up trying to talk to a dispatch and that
21
Chesterfield officer, which is a little bit closer
22
to the receiving site, is going to get to Clayton
23
more and this guy is saying, hey,
24
something, that Eureka officer, there is a good
25
chance is not getting back to Clayton.
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Wow?
That is one of the reasons why this new
system is being put in.
That's something to come that we don't
have yet?
Correct.
So that orange button that you were
referring to, is that supposed to be like an
emergency?
10
Yes.
11
Aspect for this?
12
Yes.
Another way that that works, even if
13
there's radio traffic, it is still pulsing that data
14
out.
15
it, it keeps on trying until it gets an
16
acknowledgment from the dispatcher.
17
18
It doesn't care if there's radio traffic on
And as I understand, you can be on,
guess RIOT A, which is the county?
19
Yes.
20
And that orange button wouldn't have any,
21
would it work for county or would it just go to, if
22
you are on the RIOT A channel.
23
Right.
24
And you are a Ferguson officer and if you
25
hit that a orange button, what would happen?
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It would go to dispatch.
It is programmed
as a revert,
so when you hit that button, if you are
on channel six, it doesn't matter what channel, you
hit that emergency button, it reverts that data to
the dispatch channel.
To Ferguson's dispatch?
Yes.
So even though RIOT A channel, it wouldn't
be of any consequence to them?
10
Right.
11
But Ferguson would?
12
Right.
13
And is it your understanding that most
14
officers are trained if you are in an emergency
15
situation to hit that orange button?
16
Yes, ma'am.
17
So if I'm in a shooting or something that
18
would probably be one of the first things a trained
19
officer would do is to hit that orange button?
20
I can't tell you what that officer would
21
be thinking at that time, but that is kind of,
22
need help, that's what I hit.
23
That's the purpose of that orange button
24
is to supersede everything to let your dispatch know
25
that you need help?
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Right.
Okay.
Go ahead.
On that point,
tell us again when you would use that emergency
button, or maybe frequency which is used.
this person on dispatch, would you see that happen
once a week, once a day?
9
10
I gather
No, very seldom, and only when it's a life
threatening is my understanding is when they hit

that red button.
11
Gotcha.
And that just
12
signifies to dispatch that dispatch needs to contact
13
that officer as soon as possible
14
Or get help to them.
15
Thank you.
16
17
18
19
MS. ALIZADEH:
the other cars?
A
22
What they will hear is just a data burst
of static basically is the best way to put it.
20
21
Does that signal go out to
MS. ALIZADEH:
So, but only the dispatch
would show what radio that was coming from.

A
23
Correct.
MS. ALIZADEH:
So would it require then a
24
dispatch to communicate with that radio, like 105,
25
do you need help, what's going on?
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Right.
MS. ALIZADEH:
Or to put out a call to
other cars, 105 is in an emergency situation and
possibly give a location, right?
Whatever their standard of their procedure
is, could be both.

MS. WHIRLEY:
Because most departments,
know you can't speak to all of the departments, it
sounds like you are implying that most departments
10
have some kind of procedure regarding how to use
11
that orange emergency button?
12
13
14
15
18
Correct.
MS. WHIRLEY:
It is put there for a
reason, right?
A
16
17
Yes.
MS. WHIRLEY:
And the reason is for
emergency situations?
A
Yes.
19
So the channel,
20
the radio channel has nothing to do with the orange
21
button, it doesn't have to be on a certain channel?
22
That's correct.
That radio when I
23
programmed it, it is called revert and it reverts to
24
the dispatch channel.
25
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for police officers to keep their mobile and their
portable on a different channel?
Usually, it is.
Usually they do.
Okay.
So they would have to know that they are on a
different, their portable is on a different channel
when they get out of the car and switch it back?
Some might just use it to listen to the
neighboring municipal next to them, that is what
10
they use it mainly, what they tell me.
They like to
11
hear what's going on around them.
12
would listen in on Manchester PD is doing in case
13
they need an assistance or something.
Maybe Ballwin
14
They do keep it on
15
different channels while they are in the car?
16
Yeah.
And some keep it turned off too to
17
save the battery and save avoidance of feedback
18
sometimes.
19
Can the
20
dispatcher ever notify a police officer that they
21
are on the wrong channel?
22
on their department channel, but for some reason
23
they are always on it or have a signal?
24
25
Like they think they are
No, there is nothing the dispatcher can
see on what channel that that portable or mobile is
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Ion.
The only way if they are calling them, they
know that they're not on the dispatch channel.
they are trying to call dispatch and they're not
responding, yes.
or keep on calling, but there is no way that
dispatcher knows.
They will call them by cell phone
MS. WHIRLEY:
8
9
If
I had a question
So there is no readings
that goes out daily from all whatever happened that
10
day?
11
radios from that day for each department, police
12
department in the areas, different areas.
13
no generated report that's coming out?
14
Like there is a computer generating all the
There is
No, not from which channel their on.
The
15
only thing I've seen where it counts how many times
16
the radio has been keyed up.
17
keyed up on this channel ten times that day, that's
18
about it.
19
MS. WHIRLEY:
It might say it's been
On the mobile,
I'm sorry,
20
that's passed around,
21
you.
22
an orange button on the mobile that's inside the
23
car?
24
I'm sorry, the portable, thank
The orange button is on there, is there also a
25
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Yes, ma'am.
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2
an emergency transmission?
Yes.
MS. WHIRLEY:
Because I was going to ask
you, what can an officer do if he's in trouble if he
may not be heard on the transmitter, but that's what
he can do?
Right.
MS. WHIRLEY:
Okay.
Is there any
10
other way for dispatch to communicate with the
11
officer, like through texting to display or texting
12
to the laptop.
13
There is some messaging on their CAD
14
system, their in-car computer system.
I know that
15
exist,
16
feature, but most of the agencies within St. Louis
17
County does have a way, and they can communicate car
18
to car also, so that officer can send a message to
19
the neighboring precinct or jurisdiction, how am I
20
going to say this, to the officer next to them.
21
Would be the officers within that agency.
I can't tell you that Ferguson has that
22
You talked about
23
red button emergency situation, that's a pretty
24
broad for a police officer to cover, obviously,
25
every emergency situation is going to require a red
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button.
situation, seems like that button is pretty much
reserved for an extremely serious emergency, not
typical emergency for a police officer?
You kind of mentioned a life and death
Correct.
And that can happen very
quickly.
that button in the time of a quickly escalating
activity, that could be a question?
10
The odds of a police officer to get to
Right.
11
It would be hard to hit
12
that button in a very highly emergency situation
13
that happens very quickly?
14
15
Right.
And if you notice the size of that
button, you really got to hunt for it sometimes.
16
MS. ALIZADEH:
And just on another note,
17
for example, the situation is over, then there would
18
be no reason necessarily for the officer to use the
19
orange button as opposed to using his walkie-talkie
20
because then he can explain the nature of his need
21
for help, correct?
22
23
Correct.
MS. ALIZADEH:
And if he's transmitting,
24
if you're transmitting from your walkie-talkie and
25
it's not being received, other than nobody responds,
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is there any way that the officer knows that his
transmission didn't get received?
None whatsoever.
MS. ALIZADEH:
doesn't get received,
wasn't delivered?
9
10
I get something back saying it
Correct.
MS. ALIZADEH:
I send an email and it
But there's nothing on the
radio like that.

A
No.
Some departments train they officers
11
if they don't get out, take radio out of their
12
holster and transmit, but I couldn't tell you about,
13
but that is part of a SOP in a lot of departments.
14
15
16
MS. ALIZADEH:
operating procedure?
A
17
18
19
22
CAD stands for,

A
generated,
A
25
And tell us again what does
the CAD?
Computer Aided Dispatching.

MS. WHIRLEY:
23
24
Yes.
MS. WHIRLEY:
20
21
And SOP is standard
Okay.
And is that time
I mean, there's a CAD report, right?

Right.
MS. WHIRLEY:
Does that track the timing
of the calls?
A
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MS. WHIRLEY:
there,
tell me about that?
I know it is computer generated, correct,
Well -MS. ALIZADEH:
Who puts that information in
Let me back up here.
Do
you have expertise to talk about the CAD system?

A
I know the mechanics, the technology, you
know, how they receive the timing, but as far as it
is all software and every department has got a
10
different type of CAD.
11
exactly what information goes in it or how the
12
screen is.
13
How most of them are set up for timing.

MS. WHIRLEY:
14
about.
15
So I couldn't tell you
That's what I want to know
So a lot of departments bought what they
16
call Net Clocks.
17
connected to a GPS antenna and they get their timing
18
from the satellites,
19
There is also timing that is done and this box kind
20
of distributes that timing mechanism, which can go
21
to logging reporters, their CAD,
22
set up their consoles have this timing.
23
the timing is the same throughout.
24
25
They are little boxes that are
just like our car GPS works.
MS. WHIRLEY:
Okay.
some departments I
So that all
So when an officer
calls in, let's say I'm on a traffic stop or I'm out
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with a pedestrian, would that information be timed
into the dispatch or to this CAD system?
MS. WHIRLEY:
I can't answer that.
I don't know.
Okay.
I have been listening to police calls
since I was eight years old.
Most of the time, the
dispatcher, the officer will call in, I'm at a
traffic stop blah, blah, blah.
repeat, car 104 is at a traffic stop at 1520 hours,
She will usually
10
or something like that.
11
the officer will write down that time and that is
12
what's recorded in the CAD so all the times are
13
together.
14
MS. WHIRLEY:
15
MS. ALIZADEH:
16
17
20
Okay.
, you didn't set
up the CAD system in Ferguson, correct?

A
I did not.
MS. ALIZADEH:
18
19
And that's usually the time
And you don't know how they
have it set up?

A
That's correct, I do not.

MS. ALIZADEH:
21
So is it possible that the
22
time for their CAD calls might differ from the time
23
that dispatch calls?
24
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Definitely.
MS. ALIZADEH:
If they set them manually

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as opposed to getting those times from the
satellite, is it possible then that those times
could be off?
Yes, definitely.
I know I did not sell
them a Net Clock or any type of timing mechanism.

MS. ALIZADEH:
What about compare it also
to, for example, county communications.
possible that Ferguson's CAD calls and their
dispatch calls might not be timed, the CAD's might
10
11
Is it
not be the same with the county communication clock?

A
12
Definitely.
MS. ALIZADEH:
So a call that we all know
13
for a fact that was made at 3:00 in the afternoon.
14
The dispatch time might be 3:02, the CAD call might
15
say 3:01 and yet the county communication, if it
16
were received there, might say it was 3:00?
17
MS. ALIZADEH:
18
19
Yes, definitely.
Be it is just one call?
Yes.
20
I just
21
want to make sure I understood you.
22
point-to-point channel, this is dispatch, and the
23
portable is not transmitting and they can only hear
24
what's going on?
25
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MS. ALIZADEH:
point-to-point.
When it is on
4
5
When it's on
point-to-point?
A
Right.
So if an officer had his
portable on that channel while he is in the car,
left the car, he thought he was calling in, nobody
would hear him --
10
That's correct.
11
12
13
14
until he changed the

channel?
A
Right.
What he is going to hear is maybe
a bong because that is a receive channel only.
15
That would be the same,
16
not that nobody would hear him, but dispatch would
17
hear him if he was on a RIOT channel, he is on the
18
mutual aid channel or any of the other channels, he
19
would have to it put it on one, which is a dispatch
20
channel for his dispatch to hear him?
21
22
25
if he's on point-to-point,
I'm sorry,
if he's on RIOT channel.
23
24
No,
Uh-huh.
A
And dispatch has RIOT channel turned on at
the console at Ferguson, and he's close enough, yes,
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it is going to transmit and a good chance the
dispatcher is going to hear them.
MS. ALIZADEH:
Any other questions?
.)
It is 3:28 on November 3rd.
This is Kathi
Alizadeh, Sheila Whirley is present, also all 12
grand jurors are present and
reporter.
record that we talked about that a witness that I
, the court
And we just had a discussion off the
10
had scheduled for this afternoon didn't show up, so
11
we are kind of out of material for today.
12
And so you all agree to go ahead and
13
recess early today.
14
about additional things that you all want.
15
understanding that we're going to get a Ferguson
16
police vehicle that is not the same vehicle, but the
17
same make, model and year.
18
when we are going to do that.
19
There has been discussion now

It is my
So we have to set up
There's been a request to get the press
20
conferences from Chief
21
request to get, I will get you copies of the
22
transcript of Officer Darren Wilson's grand jury
23
testimony.
24
25
then there's been a
You should have a transcript of his

interview that he did with the county police on the
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November 3,2014
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10th, but I will get the transcript for you for
tomorrow, give it to you tomorrow.
And then I'm also going to contact Chief
to see if he can appear to answer any
questions that you may have that might arise out of
your viewing of the press conferences.
anything else?
field training officer.
about that.
10
And is there
Oh, yes, you talked about getting a

So I will talk to Ferguson
I think we discussed the fact that it's
11
Darren Wilson's field training officer in Ferguson
12
is currently
13
would want to find somebody else who could talk
14
about the training that they do for their officers
15
in general.
16
and so probably we
Would obviously not be that he received,
17
but in general.
18
now?
Is that all we can think of for
19
20
Perhaps get somebody in

the Normandy Police Department that trained him?
21
MS. ALIZADEH:
22
Oh, sorry, Jennings.
23
MS. WHIRLEY:
24
25
That was Jennings.
What was that again?

Check with somebody, one
of his superiors in Jennings to see if they gave him
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some field training instruction before he came over
to Ferguson and that way you avoid
situation.
MS. ALIZADEH:
So we will recess early
today and it is my understanding that tomorrow we're
going, you are going to get here at 8:00, we start
up about 8:30-ish, whenever you are all here.
then we're stopping at 4:00 tomorrow for the
election; is that correct.?
10
plugging it.
11
Amendment 2,
And
I'm just
Everybody have a good evening.
(End of Grand Jury hearing XVIII.)
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State of Missouri
4
5
SS.
County of St. Louis

I,
, a Licensed Certified Court
Reporter by the Supreme Court in and for the State
of Missouri, duly commissioned, qualified and
authorized to administer oaths and to certify to
depositions, do hereby certify that pursuant to
10
Notice in the civil cause now pending and
11
undetermined in the County of St. Louis, State of
12
Missouri.
13
The said witness, being of sound mind and being
14
by the grand jury first carefully examined and duly
15
cautioned and sworn to testify to the truth, the
16
whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the case
17
aforesaid, thereupon testified as is shown in the
18
foregoing transcript, said testimony being by me
19
reported in shorthand and caused to be transcribed
20
into typewriting, and that the foregoing page
21
correctly sets forth the testimony of the
22
aforementioned witness, together with the questions
23
propounded by counsel and grand jurors thereto, and
24
is in all respects a full,
25
complete transcript of the questions propounded to
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correct and

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and the answers given by said witness.
I further certify that the foregoing pages
contain a true and accurate reproduction of the
proceedings.
I further certify that I am not of counselor
attorney for either of the parties to said suit, not
related to nor interested in any of the parties or
their attorneys.
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November 3,2014
Page 184
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COURT MEMO
2
3
4
State of Missouri vs. Darren Wilson
6
7
CERTIFICATE OF OFFICER AND
STATEMENT OF DEPOSITION CHARGES
10
11
DEPOSITION OF Grand Jury, Volume XVIII
12
13
11/3/2014
14
Name and address of person or firm having custody of
15
the original transcript:
16
17
St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney's Office
18
100 S. Central Ave.
19
Clayton, MO 63105
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21
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ORIGINAL TRANSCRIPT TAXED IN FAVOR OF:
2
3
St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney's Office
100 S. Central Ave.
Clayton, MO 63105
Total:
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Page 186
Upon delivery of transcripts, the above
charges had not been paid.
that all charges will be paid in the normal course
of business.
GORE PERRY GATEWAY & LIPA REPORTING COMPANY
515 Olive street, Suite 700
st. Louis, Missouri 63101
IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set
STATEMENT OF DEPOSITION CHARGES
10
my hand and seal on this
11
Commission expires
It is anticipated
day of
12
13
Notary Public
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FAX 314-241-6750

314-241-6750
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Case: State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson
Transcript of: Grand Jury Volume XIX

Date: November 4, 2014
This transcript is printed on 100% recycled paper
515 Olive Street, Suite 300

St. Louis, MO 63101
(314) 241-6750
1-800-878-6750
Fax: (314) 241-5070
Email: schedule@goreperry.com
Internet: < <www.goreperry.com >>

Grand Jury Volume XIX
November 4,2014
Page 1
STATE OF MISSOURI
VS.
DARREN WILSON
GRAND JURY
November 4, 2014
VOLUME XIX
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November 4,2014
Page 2
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF ST. LOUIS COUNTY
STATE OF MISSOURI
STATE OF MISSOURI
5
6
vs.
DARREN WILSON
10
11
12
The following is a hearing before the Grand
13
Jury of St. Louis County, at the offices of St.
14
Louis County Prosecuting Attorney's Office, 100
15
South Central Avenue,
16
of Missouri, on the 4th day of November,
17
before
in the City of Clayton, State

2014,
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November 4,2014
Page 3
1
APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:
2
3
FOR THE STATE:
Ms. Kathi Alizadeh & Ms. Sheila Whirley
Assistant Prosecuting Attorneys for St. Louis
County
100 South Central Avenue, 2nd Floor
Clayton, MO 63105
(314)
615-2600
10
11
12
13
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November 4,2014
Page 5
GRAND JURY HEARING VOLUME XIX
MS. ALIZADEH:
Good morning, it is
Tuesday, November 4th, at 8:46 a.m.
Alizadeh, Sheila Whirley is present, all 12 grand
jurors are present, as is
And we had a brief discussion before we went on the
record this morning about some matters, about
matters that the grand jury had inquired about, and
I've answered them to the best of my ability.
10
This is Kathi
, the court reporter.
And, uh, now we discussed that yesterday
11
we attempted to playa disc for the grand jury which
12
is marked as Grand Jury Exhibit Number 63, and it is
13
a disc that contains the statement of
14
a witness who has testified last week.
15
weren't able to play that for some reason, the disc
16
doesn't play, can't open it.
17
And we
So I have another disc that we're going to
18
play that is also a disc that I received from the
19
FBI, which is Grand Jury Exhibit 56.
20
(Deposition Exhibit Number 56
21
marked for identification.)
22
MS. ALIZADEH:
And hopefully this will
23
play.
This is the statement of
24
is 29 minutes and 11 seconds long.
25
transcript because this was actually the statement
FAX 314-241-6750

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It
We do not have a
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November 4,2014
Page 6
1
that he made last week.
but it was done after he came from the State of

to come up here and testify.
I'm not sure of the date,
It was recently
done, we don't have a transcript for that.

So,
, if you can transcribe it, but
we will go ahead and pause the recording during the
playing of the disc.
leave the room because we have a witness here who I
would like to speak with before he testifies.
10
so at this time,
11
And at this time I'm going to
And
, if you want to pause that.
(This is the playing of the audio
12
recording interview of
13
transcribing it.)
14
I am also
This is special agent
15
We're at the FBI field office 2222 Market
16
Street, St. Louis, Missouri.
17
2014, 3:28 p.m.
18
DOJ trial attorney
19
interviewing.
It is October 27th,
I'm here with USA
and
and we are
20
21
22
Okay.
you.
Is your first name
23
24
Get some info from

?
Legally it's
, but it
was supposed to have been
25
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But you go by

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November 4,2014
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Yes, ma'am.
It is
Yes, ma'am.
You go by
, okay.
What
is your current address?
6
7
Okay.
What town?
10
11
Okay.
What's a good phone
Okay.
What's your date of
number for you?
12
13
14
birth?
15
16
17
Okay.
your social security number?
18
Yes, ma'am.
19
20
Do you know
Okay.
And where were you,
what was your address on August 9th, 2014.
21
22
23
Okay.
24
MS.
25
with you if we call you
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November 4,2014
Page 8
Yes, ma'am.
1
2
So we talked a little bit
MS.
before the recording started, but we basically just
want to hear what you know about what happened.
if you tell us what other people told you that's
fine, but just let us know those are what other
people told you.
8
9
10
So
We're just looking to find, to figure out,

like I said, what happened, we are just looking for
you to tell us the truth.
11
We tell everybody who comes in here that
12
it could be a crime to lie to the FBI, it is a crime
13
to make material false statements to the FBI.
14
15
So I'm not assuming you are going to lie,

but we want you to know that, okay?
16
Yes, ma'am.
17
MS.
All the answers need to be out
18
loud, we are making a recording.
19
transcript or you shake your head, obviously, the
20
recording doesn't pick that up, okay?
21
If we ever do a
Right.
22
MS.
So if you nod your head you are
23
going to probably hear me say is that a yes or if
24
you shake your head I will say is that a no, okay?
25
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November 4,2014
Page 9
MS.
Okay.
If at any point you
don't understand a question that we're asking you,
let us know because we are not trying to trick you,
we are just trying to figure out what happened.
sometimes we ask bad questions that doesn't make
sense,
question we are going to assume that you understood,
it is that fair?
just let us know.
So
Because if you answer a
Yes, ma'am.
10
MS.
Okay.
I just want to generally
11
go through what you remember happening and then when
12
we go back and ask you some questions to clarify to
13
help us understand more what your perspective was.
14
Okay.
15
16
MS.
Okay.
just said on Canfield Court back on August 9th?
17
Yes, ma'am.
MS.
18
19
And this is, you know Michael
Brown?
20
Not really.
21
22
MS.
I think you said he was a
friend of a friend?
23
24
So you were living, you
Yes, he's a friend of a

friend.
25
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MS.
Okay.
Which friend is he a

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friend of?
I have a friend name
3
4
MS.
Okay.
out with Michael Brown?
No, ma'am.
MS.
When did you first meet him?

Probably when we were going
9
10
to the store.
There was three of us.
Me,
and Mike.
11
12
And did you ever hang
MS.
When was that relative to when
this all happened?
13
It was a couple years ago.
14
MS.
Years ago?
15
Yes, ma'am.
16
MS.
All right.
So we will go to
17
that in a second.
18
is what you remember happening on August 9th.
19
What I want to talk about first
Okay.
Well,
I seen Mike
20
and some other young man walking down the street.
21
And I was just sitting down on the porch just
22
looking around and I seen the officer approach.
23
sure if he said anything because I'm too for away.
24
I didn't see or hear anything, but then I seen him
25
almost like sort of run him over,
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or something like that.
And I guess they got into a scuffle, but I
went in the house to get my phone because I was
going to go record it.
raced outside.
balcony and then I
I went to the other side of the
MS.
But I heard a gunshot, so I
seen Mike Brown holding himself.

(inaudible)
his hand down around his stomach?
9
10
Yes, he had his hand like

around his torso area.
MS.
11
12
Okay.
Which hand, do you
remember?
13
14
You saw that he had
Urn, I really don't remember

which hand it was.
15
MS.
Okay.
16
I just know he was holding
17
himself and he turned around towards the officer and
18
the officer kept firing.
19
don't know if he stepped forward or if he was
20
falling forward, but as he was falling forward,
21
officer was still firing.
22
23
MS.
And I guess he was,
Okay.
the
So you're saying and
that is in total what you saw.
24
25
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Yes, ma'am.
MS.
You said the officer was still

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November 4,2014
Page 12
firing,
the officer stop firing?
what did the officer do at some point, did
Yes, ma'am afterwards.

MS.
After what?
After he hit the ground.
Okay.
MS.
once Michael hit the ground?

I'm not sure.
9
10
What did the officer do
I was
looking around making sure that someone else saw

what I saw.
11
MS.
Okay.
So let's back up a
12
little bit, okay.
So you were sitting on your porch
13
and you see Mike Brown and this other kid, where
14
were they walking?
15
16
Down the street like coming

from the main street.
17
MS.
West Florissant?
Yes, ma'am.
18
19
20
Where on the street were they
MS.
walking?
21
22
They're in the middle of

the street I believe.
23
MS.
24
officer, where was he?
25
FAX 314-241-6750
Okay.
What about the police
Urn, he wasn't around until

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November 4,2014
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they got towards like the other, there was another
apartment complex across the street from where I
was.
part.
So he didn't pull up until they got to that
Okay.
MS.
police officer going?
7
8
Urn, he was coming towards,

coming down.
The opposite direction?
MS.
10
11
He was coming the same way

they were coming.
12
13
Which direction is the
So the police officer is coming
MS.
from West Florissant also?
14
I believe so.
15
Okay.
MS.
16
And then what happened?
Then it just went from
17
there.
He,
18
they said that.
19
I guess, he according to everyone else
MS.
20
Okay, go on.
He told them to get out of
21
the street.
22
because I couldn't hear it.
23
MS.
I'm not sure if that's what happened
Let me be clear, if I ask you a
24
question that you don't know the answer to, that's
25
fine,
let me know, let us know that, right?
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Everyone has a little piece of this, nobody is going
to make or break the case in one fell swoop, right?
Everyone has to say what they know.
something, great.
too, as long as it's the truth, okay?
If you know
If you don't know, that's fine
Yes, ma'am.
MS.
Okay.
You see Mike and his
friend walking down the street and then you see the
police officer coming in the same direction as
10
they're going?
11
Yes, ma'am.
12
MS.
Okay.
So what is the next
13
thing?
I know that you heard, tell me what
14
happened, what is the next thing you either see or
15
hear yourself?
16
I seen them actually at the
17
police car.
18
he was inside or if he was outside it, all I know is
19
that I just went in the house to grab my phone.
20
MS.
I think he was inside.
Okay.
I'm not sure if
Before you went in the
21
house to grab the phone, was there any sort of
22
interaction with the police officer and Mike and his
23
friend or you didn't even see that?
24
25
I didn't see that part

because I wasn't thinking that it wasn't going to
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November 4,2014
Page 15
escalate that far.
MS.
All right.
So you went inside
to get your phone.
agents in
separate and apart from anything that was going on.
You just happen to want your phone at that time?
I think what you told the FBI
, you went to get your phone
Yes.
MS.
porch,
So when you're sitting on your
you see Mike and his friend and you see, when
10
you run in, do you actually see the police officer
11
there or he showed up afterwards?
12
No, he was there already.
13
MS.
Okay.
14
And he stopped his car?
No, ma'am.
15
When you went to get your
MS.
16
phone, the police officer had yet to even stop his
17
car?
18
No, ma'am.
19
MS.
Okay.
So you didn't see
20
anything about the interaction between Michael Brown
21
and the police officer?
22
No, ma'am.
I just seen him at the car I
23
just seen him like he was sort of kind of by the
24
car, but then again, he was not inside of the car at
25
the time when I saw.
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Is this before or after you get
MS.
your cell phone?
3
4
This is before I went to

get my cell phone.
All right.
MS.
Let's divide it
out.
Let's talk about before you went to get your
cell phone, you see the boys walking in the street?
Yes, ma'am.
10
You see the police officer
MS.
driving in the same direction that they are walking?
11
Yes, ma'am.
12
13
What do you remember the
police vehicle doing?
14
15
Okay.
MS.
Just pulled up towards them

and that's it, that's all I can remember seeing.
16
MS.
17
Pulled up toward them how?

Urn,
I wouldn't say that he
18
pulled up cautiously, but he pulled up as if he
19
noticed that they did something wrong or something.
20
MS.
Okay.
And so what, when the
21
police officer pulled up to them, where was the
22
police officer's vehicle in relation to the boys?
23
Probably,
I mean, they
24
turned around so they was probably in front,
25
was in front of each other.
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What kind of car was it?
MS.
It was a police cruiser, I

don't know.
Was it a car, a SUV?
MS.
It was a SUV.
5
6
Okay.
MS.
Did the SUV, did it pull
up alongside of them, did it stop and go forward,
did it stop, where was it relative to them?
9
10
I mean, they turned around

when he pulled up.
11
MS.
12
13
were they in relation to the

car, does that make it easier?
14
I guess in front of it.
15
In front of it?
16
17
MS.
If you don't know, you don't
know.
18
19
Okay.
I'm not sure, my memory is
kind of
20
MS.
Okay.
21
22
hazy, but I remember

most of it.
23
24
MS.
Okay.
So you see the SUV stop
and you see the boys standing by the vehicle, right?
25
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Yes, ma'am.

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And then is that when you go
MS.
and get your phone?
Yes, ma'am.
You don't see any sort of
MS.
interaction between them?

No, ma'am.
6
7
When you went to go get your
MS.
phone, while you were getting your phone, did you
hear anything?
10
11
Yes, ma'am,
gunshot.
12
Okay.
MS.
13
So what did you hear?
I went immediately outside.
14
15
I heard a
Okay.
MS.
Describe for us what you
saw?
16
When I went outside, they
17
were, the police cruiser was still like by the
18
apartment complex.
19
MS.
20
21
But they were up towards

the street.
22
23
MS.
When you say they, who do you
mean?
24
25
Okay.
Police officer Mike Brown,

the friend was nowhere in sight.
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You didn't see the friend after
MS.
that?
No, ma'am.
The only time you saw the
MS.
friend was before you went and got your cell phone?
Yes.
You come back out and you see
MS.
Mike Brown and the police officer and you say where
were they?
10
11
They were up the street

like a few feet,
12
MS.
not too much, like 10, 15, 20 feet.

What were they doing, were they
13
standing there, were they running, were they
14
walking?
15
16
Actually, he was standing

there.
17
MS.
Mike Brown and the police
18
19
officer.
20
The officer had his gun drawn at him.

MS.
21
22
Who is he?
Okay.
And that's when Mike Brown
turned around holding his wounds.
23
MS.
Okay.
Did you actually see
24
Mike Brown turn around or you assuming he turned
25
around?
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I'm assuming he turned
around.
So describe what you actually
MS.
saw when you walked out there?
When I walked out there, he
was already facing towards the officer holding his
wound.
MS.
Okay.
You don't know how far
he ran?
10
No, ma'am.
And you don't know,
MS.
11
you're
12
assuming he turned around,
13
turned around or what he did that landed him in the
14
position that you saw, which was standing with his
15
arm in front of his torso,
16
correct?
Correct.
17
18
you don't know whether he
MS.
I think you just used the word
holding his wound, did you see a wound?
19
No,
I didn't see a wound.
20
I'm too far away.
21
wound right there, he's holding himself.
22
MS.
23
Based on his position?

Yes, ma'am.
24
25
I'm just assuming that he had a
MS.
yourself,
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so what you,
saw was Michael Brown facing the police

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officer and he was holding his front, his torso,
right front of his stomach area?
Yes, ma'am.
Lower stomach?
MS.
Yes, ma'am,
I believe.
You couldn't hear what he was
MS.
saying?
No, ma'am.
10
11
Did it look like they were
MS.
saying anything or you too far away to see?
12
13
To me it didn't look like

they were saying anything.
14
15
Okay.
MS.
Yes, ma'am.
17
Did you see any shots fired?
MS.
18
Yes, ma'am.
I seen the
last probably four.
20
Okay.
MS.
21
As he was going to the
22
ground,
23
to the ground.
24
25
You say you saw the
police officer with his gun drawn?
16
19
lower stomach,
I seen every shot that he got hit with going
MS.
Okay.
second, this is my fault.
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Let's back up for a

So Michael Brown is

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standing there with his arm around his torso and the
police officer is standing in front of him,
describe what you see?
so
The officer starts to fire
while he's holding himself and he starts to fall
forward.
MS.
When you say he,
you mean
Michael Brown?
Yes, ma'am, Michael Brown.
10
He starts to fall forward, Michael Brown starts to
11
fall forward and the police officer,
12
two more times as he's falling forward and then
13
after that he stops.
14
MS.
Okay.
I think,
When you walk out onto
15
the balcony, was the police officer already
16
shooting?
17
fires
No, ma'am.
18
MS.
All right.
So you heard the
19
first shot when you were inside and then you saw the
20
last four or five shots I believe you said?
21
Yes, ma'am.
22
MS.
Okay.
So just to be clear, you
23
didn't see, you only saw the police officer pull up
24
when the boys were first walking in the street,
25
correct?
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Yes, ma'am.
You didn't see the interaction
MS.
by the vehicle?
No, ma'am.
5
6
You went to get your phone, you
MS.
heard a gunshot, correct?

Yes, ma'am.
8
9
By the time you came back out,
MS.
Michael Brown was facing the police officer and
10
Michael Brown had his hand around his torso,
11
correct?
12
Yes, ma'am.
13
And then you saw a police
MS.
14
officer shoot four or five times and Michael Brown
15
go to the ground?
16
Yes, ma'am.
17
MS.
18
Yes, ma'am.
19
MS.
20
MS.
Did I put any words in your
mouth or I got that right?
23
You got that right.
24
25
Did I miss anything?

No, ma'am.
21
22
Is that correct?
MR.
Do you recall about how far
the police officer and Michael Brown were when the
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last shots were fired?
Mike Brown, he is in the
middle of the street and the officer was towards the
curb.
Can you put a distance on
MR.
it?
Probably about six, seven,
six or seven feet apart.
MR.
10
MS.
Okay.
So let's go back for a second.
11
You first met Michael Brown when you were going to
12
the store.
What's your friend's name again?
13
14
MS.
What's his last name?
MS.
Does
15
16
17
still live in the
Canfield area?
18
I'm not sure.
19
I moved so.
I know you moved in August.
MS.
20
But he moved before I
21
moved.
22
St.
When I
came back in July,
to come back to
Louis in July, he was already gone.
23
MS.
24
last time you saw him?
25
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So before July, when was the
Before I moved to

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1
2
How long did you live in
MS.
for?
Since November.
3
4
So prior to that, other than
MS.
the time going to the store, did you hang out with
him ever?
No, ma'am.
Just that one time?
MS.
Yes, ma'am.
10
11
What was he like when you saw
MS.
him that one time?
12
He was pretty quiet.
13
didn't exchange too many words.
14
basically.
15
MS.
16
17
I was just riding
You just what?

I was just riding
basically.
18
19
MS.
You were on the way to the
store?
20
Yes, ma'am.
21
MS.
22
Did you graduate high school?

Yes, ma'am.
23
MS.
Where did you go?
24
25
We
High
School.
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Is that in
Did you ever go to high

school in Missouri?
Yes, ma'am.
Where did you go?
I went to
High School.
10
Yes, ma'am.
11
I think earlier when you
MR.
12
were taking us through what you saw that day,
you
13
said something about Mike Brown took a step towards
14
him,
15
or if he was taking a step,
couldn't tell what exactly if he was stumbling
16
can you describe that?
Well,
17
he was just falling,
18
his right foot went forward and I just seen him just
19
drop to his knees and fall to the ground.
20
MR.
21
MS.
22
I mean.
it looked like as if
All right.
Did you see the friend that
showed up out on Canfield after that at all?
23
24
But he took his step,
No, ma'am, not until

probably the next day.
25
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MS.
Okay.
Did you have any

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interaction with the friend?

No, ma'am.
who he is.
Where did you see him when you
MS.
saw him the next day?
He was in Canfield.
Was he just like hanging out,
MS.
what was he doing?
He was walking.
10
11
Okay.
MS.
Did you talk to anyone
about this when it happened?
12
Just my parents.
13
14
I have no idea
How about any of your
MS.
neighbors?
15
No, not that I know of.
16
You said initially that
MR.
17
people were talking about what went on at the side
18
of the police car.
19
you didn't really see anything that happened there
20
and you didn't know if he was inside the car or not,
21
but other people were talking about that, remember
22
that?
You said that when you saw it
23
Yes, sir.
24
MR.
25
those people up there?
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Just neighbors, everybody
in the neighborhood was talking about it.

MR.
When was that?

This was the same day.
MR.
People coming out and
talking about it?

Yes, sir.
MR.
9
10
All right.
little bit of video over to the FBI.
Uh-huh.
12
MR.
That's after the shooting
was over?
14
Yes, sir.
15
16
That video,
you took that on your phone; is that right?
11
13
You turned a
MR.
You didn't capture any of
the actual shooting on your phone?
17
No, sir.
18
MR.
Right at the beginning of
19
that video people, you say people are going crazy.
20
You hear some voices on that, what were you
21
referring to there, what was going on?
22
I believe his kin, Michael
23
Brown's kin, his family,
24
on the curb, they was just yelling and screaming,
25
you know.
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Do you know any of his family
MS.
members?
No, ma'am.
Based on what you saw, do
MR.
you have any idea what happened from the time the
police first pulled up there until the time the
policeman fired those last four or five shots, do
you know what went on there at all based on what you
saw or heard that day?
10
11
From what I heard is that

they had a scuffle inside the car.
12
Okay.
MR.
I'm not talking about
13
what you heard from other people,
14
about what you actually saw?
15
16
I didn't see what happened

at all.
17
18
I'm just talking
You didn't see what happened
MR.
until those last four or five shots?
19
Yes, sir.
20
Based on what you saw there
MR.
21
at the end, did you have feeling about what had
22
happened there?
23
24
25
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Yes.
MR.
And what was that?

I felt that the police

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officer did that very unjustly, he overkilled
basically.
really have to shoot the young man in the first
place.
corralling the suspect, you know, taser, anything
else.
After the first shot,
I mean, he didn't
They have other means of, you know,
He shot him the first time, even if you
did have to shoot him, he didn't have to keep going,
he didn't have to kill him because he was unarmed.
10
MR.
From what you saw that day,
11
could you tell why the police officer shot at Mike
12
Brown?
13
I'm not sure why.
14
MR.
15
MS.
16
And you don't know what
happened in the car, right?
17
No, ma'am.
18
19
Okay.
MS.
And you don't know what
happened while you were inside, correct?
20
No, ma'am.
21
MS.
22
MR.
Okay.
That's one of the reasons
23
I'm asking because on that video you referred to,
24
you said he shot him like six times.
25
for no reason, do you recall that?
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Yes, sir.
Is it fair to say you didn't
MR.
see what happened before those last four or five
shots; is that right?

Yes, sir.
5
6
So do you know what the
MR.
reason was the police officer shot him, if any?
No, sir.
MR.
10
MS.
Okay.
That's fair enough.
I think when you originally
11
spoke to the FBI in
12
when you were inside, did you hear two or one or not
13
sure?
14
15
you heard like two shots
I'm not sure.

for sure,
16
I heard one
I know that for sure.

MS.
And just so you know what I'm
17
looking at, when you are interviewed by the FBI
18
though and what you said, that's all I'm looking at.
19
So it is a summary of what you told them.
20
MR.
After that one shot that
21
you're sure you heard while you were inside, you
22
didn't hear any other shots after that until the
23
four or five that you actually saw?
24
25
I mean, not that I

remember.
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Okay.
MR.
But other than that --
I'm not suggesting that
MR.
should or shouldn't of, I'm just trying to be sure
that basically when you are in the apartment getting
your cell phone, you hear at least one shot inside?
Yes, sir.
You mentioned two before, as
MR.
said at the FBI you mentioned two.
You
10
remember one for sure, maybe two, and then is it
11
fair you don't recall hearing or seeing any other
12
shots until those last four or five that you
13
actually saw right before Mike Brown went down?
14
Correct.
15
MR.
16
MS.
17
MR.
Take a break.
Give us a minute.
We'll be back with you in
18
just a minute.
19
if you want.
20
room here.
21
you.
22
You can step outside with your mom

We're just going to go in the other
We'll be back in just a minute.
Thank
(Pause in the interview.)
23
MR.
24
finish up.
25
ma'am.
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, come back in and we'll
Just a couple minutes.

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November 4,2014
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All right.
Just to be clear, we took a
break, obviously, we left the recorder running here
just so we don't have to start it over again, but
when we're on the break you went out to the lobby
and sat with your mom for a little while?
Yes.
MR.
She's out there waiting for
you.
Yes.
10
MR.
We weren't out there, right?

You weren't.
11
12
MR.
Okay.
We just went to a
13
different room, we didn't talk about this at all
14
during the break, correct?
15
Right.
16
MS.
We just want to ask you a
17
couple other things just so we understand better.
18
What made you move back to
19
after?
20
Yes.
21
stay with my father any more.
22
23
MS.
, you moved the day
Just didn't want to
Did it have anything to do with
this incident, the shooting?
24
25
FAX 314-241-6750
No, ma'am.
MS.
Before you said you went and

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got your cell phone, you had mentioned on your
actual video that you gave to the FBI that you wish
you would have recorded it.
cell phone, how come you didn't record what you saw?
Because it all happened too
fast.
MS.
Okay.
Way too fast.
9
10
I had to
unlock my phone and go all the way to my camera and

all that,
11
12
So you ran and got your
I didn't have no time to do none of that.

MS.
It was like right when you
walked outside it was happening?
13
Yes, ma'am.
14
MS.
15
MR.
Okay.
All right.
You talked a
16
little bit about some of the talk that kind of went
17
on that day.
18
tell us about that, about what people were talking
19
about, or we know, we already talked about what you
20
actually saw that day.
21
MR.
But just what you heard or
what people were talking about?
24
25
can you just kind of
Right.
22
23
And after that,
The people were telling me

that apparently the officer pulled him inside of the
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car and I guess he was reaching for his gun or
something, and the officer shot him in his hand or
shot at him or something and then he ran away.
That's all I know.
People were saying that right
MS.
when it happened?
Yes, ma'am.
You left the next day, right?
MS.
Yes.
10
You really only had that first
MS.
11
day on Canfield.
What was it like around there,
12
like the people around?
13
Terrible.
14
Could you describe it?
MS.
15
It was very chaotic, I will
16
tell you that.
17
didn't make anything better than what it was,
18
especially when they brought the dogs out.
19
very unnecessary.
20
21
And the police officers really
That was
How were the people in the
MS.
community acting?
22
They were all riled up for
23
the incident.
24
yelling allover the place, some were praying, some
25
were like,
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but they were just standing in front of them with
their hands up saying don't shoot and things like
that.
At the time that you saw
MR.
Mike Brown before he went down, he had his arms down
around his torso at that time?
Yes.
MS.
I don't think I
I don't have any more
questions.
12
13
Urn,
have anything else.
10
11
Okay.
MR.
Just real quick, this is very

small.
14
15
16
MS.
MS.
Do you think that we treated
you fairly?
20
Yes.
21
MS.
Did we put any words in your
mouth?
23
No, ma'am.
24
25
Is there
No, ma'am.
18
22
That's it.
anything else you want to tell us?
17
19
Okay.
MS.
Everything you told us is what
you wanted to tell us and the truth?
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Yes, ma'am.
Thank you for coming here.
MS.
No problem.
4
5
The interview is over at

3:57 p.m.
6
7
(Playing of the recorded interview is

over. )
MS. ALIZADEH:
9
10
It is 9:16.
We just
completed listening to Grand Jury Exhibit 56, the

statement of
11
(Grand Jury Exhibit Number 64
12
13
MS. ALIZADEH:
Just some housekeeping
14
things.
15
journal entry that was done by the last witness
16
yesterday and I marked that previously as Grand Jury
17
Exhibit Number 64, and so I will pass that around.
18
For each of you.
19
that you would like to get a copy of the transcript
20
of Darren Wilson's testimony, and I made one copy
21
because as you can see, it is like thick and
22
voluminous.
23
I made a copy for each of you of the
And also last night you indicated
I can make extras if you all want your own
24
and feel like you want your own,
25
make you extras.
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I will be happy to
I didn't know if maybe while you

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are talking and deliberating somebody can be looking
through this as kind of to read for the rest of
them.
And I will tell you that at the end of the
transcript there is an index and it will tell you
what page and line a certain word appears on.
you know what you are looking for,
probably go back and search for it by referring to
the index.
10
So if
you could
For example the word easy, you recall he
11
said something was easy, you know, and you're not
12
sure about that.
13
word easy and you find that it appears on page 265
14
and line seven.
15
to kind of reference if you are looking for
16
something in particular.
17
You might look back and find the
And that would be the way for you
So I will give this to you now.
You can
18
look at it during the lunch hour and if you guys
19
decide each one want your own copy,
20
copies.
21
you are right there.
22
I can make
So I will give that to
since
So we're going to have the first witness
23
for today, he's here.
He's a toxicologist.
24
ready, you want to take a break.
25
him?
You all
Can we start with
I anticipate might be about an hour that he's
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testifying.
him.
Anyone?
All right.
I will go get
interrogatories, propounded as follows,
9
10
to-wit:
EXAMINATION
BY MS. ALIZADEH:
Would you state your name, please?
11
12
13
14
occupation?
15
And can you tell me what is your
I'm a toxicologist, more specifically a
16
forensic toxicologist.
17
harmful effects of drugs and chemicals on living
18
systems.
19
the data may be admitted into a court of law.
20
Toxicology is the study of
We study these materials in a manner that
And so the toxicology is the study of the
21
harm of toxic effects and the forensic part of it is
22
the legal application and conclusions?
23
24
25
Yes.
We have to cross some T's and dot
some I's to make sure everything is fine.

Q
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Okay.
And so can you tell the grand

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jurors a little bit about your educational
background?
Well,
I have a bachelor's degree in
chemistry from Marist College, which is in New York.
I have a second master's,
pharmacology and toxicology from St. John's
University in New York.
medical biology from Long Island University, also in
New York.
I have a master's in
I have a second master's in
And my doctorate is in toxicology and
10
that's from St. John's and I have been working in
11
the field of toxicology now about 35 years.
12
Where are you employed?
13
I work for St. Louis University Med School
14
15
and I'm the chief toxicologist for St. Louis County.

Q
And so do you work with the Medical
16
Examiner as the chief toxicologist for St. Louis
17
County?
18
Yes, ma'am.
19
And so are there times when you are asked
20
to do testing or perform test on samples that are
21
received or obtained from deceased persons?
22
Yes.
We do cases for the city and the
23
county.
24
influence cases too.
25
Orleans, to Wisconsin, to California and allover
FAX 314-241-6750
We do a lot of the driving under the

Our caseload goes from New

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Illinois.
different municipalities.
4
5
We do a lot of work for a lot of
Did I ask you or did you bring with you
today your curriculum vitae?

A
Yes, ma'am.
9
10
(By Ms. Alizadeh)
I'm going to hand you
what I've marked as Grand Jury Exhibit Number 65.

Is that your CV that you brought with you today?
11
Yes, ma'am.
12
I made a copy for each of the grand
13
jurors, so I will pass that around.
14
15
And you have your doctorate; is that

correct?
16
Yes, ma'am.
17
And so I will call you
Now,
18
just for clarification sake, you are not a
19
physician, correct?
20
No, ma'am,
21
Okay.
22
That is correct.
23
24
25
I'm not a physician.
And so you didn't go to med school?

My area is toxicology,
affects of drugs.
Q
All right.
And in the course of your
employment as the chief toxicologist for St. Louis
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County, back in August of 2014, did you receive some
samples from a deceased person named Michael Brown?
Yes, ma'am.
And those, what were the samples that you
5
6
7
8
9
10
received?
A
Oh, blood, urine and I think vitreous, or
eye fluid.
Q
So samples that were obtained by someone
else were preserved and then delivered to your

laboratory; is that correct?
11
Yes, the samples were taken at autopsy.
12
And is your laboratory in the same
13
building where the medical examiner performs
14
autopsies?
15
Yes.
16
So this is not like the sample had to be
17
18
19
shipped anywhere?
A
No.
They take the samples in the back and
they walk them over and we sign for them.
20
And did you test some of those samples?
21
Yes.
22
And, urn, did you prepare a report that
23
24
summarized your findings?

A
25
FAX 314-241-6750
Yes.

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(By Ms. Alizadeh)
I'm going to hand you a
copy of Grand Jury Exhibit Number 66.
report that you made or a copy of the report that
you did after testing samples that you received from
the deceased, Michael Brown?
Yes, ma'am.
All right.
Is that the
And I've made a copy of these
as well for the grand jurors.
And actually,
I'm
10
going to give one to the court reporter so he can
11
have, some of the words are difficult for me to
12
pronounce and spell.
13
So,
, first off, let me ask
14
you, when the human body ingest a chemical or a
15
substance, does the body process that over time?
16
Oh, absolutely.
17
Okay.
So if someone ingest a chemical or
18
substance and then that person dies, does the body
19
continue to process that chemical after death?
20
Well, when you are referring to
21
processing, that is an energy requiring step, like
22
the liver metabolism.
23
energy stops so there is no more metabolism.
24
However, there are further reactions that go on just
25
because there is certain enzymes, decomposition,
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When a person expires, the

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things of that nature that can alter the drug
concentration.
Okay.
So let me ask you from the time
that the sample is retrieved from the deceased and
then if it is properly preserved or maintained, is
that sample going to degrade over time so that
whatever chemicals may be found within that sample
might change over time?
There can be some degradation, but as soon
10
as the sample is drawn,
11
we start performing the test on it right away.
12
anything along those lines is minimal.
13
it is refrigerated and then

So
Do you recall when it was that you
14
obtained these samples or got them out again, your
15
process or testing them?
16
17
18
Yeah, we received them August 11th of
And so if Michael Brown passed on
2014.
19
August 9th and the autopsy was conducted on
20
August 10th, Sunday, and then you received those
21
samples on that Monday?
22
That's correct.
23
And when you receive the samples, did it
24
appear to you that they had been properly packaged
25
and that they had been refrigerated properly?
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Yes, ma'am.
Okay.
So now you mentioned that you had
received urine and blood and you said vitreous
fluid,
what is vitreous fluid?

Vitreous fluid is the fluid in your eye
that keeps it round,
eyeball.
9
10
okay.
It is the fluid in the
And what is it, why would it be important
to have a sample of the fluid in the deceased

eyeball?
11
Well,
see there is several things that can
12
go on with your chest cavity, even motor vehicle
13
accidents, trauma to the chest, you can get
14
contamination of everything in here, okay.
15
The eyeball, because it is so
16
protected in the skull,
17
any trauma you don't have it because it ruptures.
18
So other than that,
19
relatively clean and pure sample and it represents
20
the brain concentration, okay.
21
to whatever is in the brain to give you a handle on
22
that.
23
24
25
Now,
if something happens to it,
you get a very good sample,
So it is very close
in this particular case, did you test
the vitreous fluid from Michael Brown?

A
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No, ma'am.

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And why didn't you do that?
Well, in our case there was no reason to
because of the nature of the drugs that we found,
they don't get to the vitreous.
long and they are not present.
It just takes too
The vitreous is very slow for
equilibration.
That is the concentration goes up in
the blood and then it declines and the vitreous lags
on some drugs.
On these drugs the vitreous stays
10
very low, the drugs do not penetrate into the
11
vitreous.
12
13
So you tested blood and urine that you had
received from Michael Brown, correct?
14
Yes, ma'am.
15
And we'll talk about the actual process of
16
testing those, but did you first do a test on the
17
blood for alcohol?
18
Yes.
19
And you don't need to go into that
20
necessarily because the tests of the blood for
21
alcohol, which are ethanol, acetone, isopropanol and
22
methanol were all negative, correct?
23
24
25
Well, we list those, but we test for
others, like toluylenes, Xylene, and so forth.
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of the tests for alcohol were negative on -- in your
test of the blood of Michael Brown?
Yes.
Now, let me ask you this.
If there was a
subsequent test done on a sample of blood that was
done by another professional, and if they had
actually had a different finding that perhaps had a
level of .023, how would you describe, do you have
an explanation as to why that could be positive,
10
11
another test done later?

A
Sure.
The reason for that is
12
decomposition.
13
and then transport and everything else that goes
14
along with it, you can get a little bit of alcohol
15
generated.
16
decomposition.
17
18
As I said, the longer a sample sits
And .02 is nothing, so it would just be
So that could possibly be explained by the
decomposition that occurred in the sample?
19
Yes.
20
And, all right.
So let's talk about the
21
drug screening for the blood that you ran.
22
everybody can refer to your report on Grand Jury
23
Exhibit 66, which I don't think I marked actually on
24
your report, there are a number of drugs that you
25
tested for; is that correct?
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Yes.
And everyone of those tests was negative
except for the test for cannabinoids, correct?
Correct.
And so just to be clear, when you say you
have a negative test,
is there like a threshold or a
level that could be present but not detected?
Yes.
And so when you run tests for various
10
chemicals, if the level that is detected in the
11
sample that falls below a threshold, then that is
12
considered a negative, correct?
13
Correct.
14
All right.
And so you receive negative
15
reading on amphetamines, antidepressants,
16
barbiturates, and all the other drugs that you
17
tested for except for the cannabinoids, correct?
18
Correct.
19
All right.
So explain, Dr.
, when you
20
tested the blood and you were looking for positive
21
or negative affects, explain the testing procedure
22
or process that you used to get a negative or a
23
positive reading?
24
25
See, we use a scatter approach.
is we use what's called an immunoassay.
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And that
An
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immunoassay is an allergic reaction in a test tube
to a class of compounds such as amphetamines,
opiates, phencyclidine and so forth.
is we mix the sample with the antibody and if we get
a reaction, then we know it is present or it is
indicated as present.
What happens
That has to go on for further
confirmation, which in our case is always gas
chromatography mass spectrometry.
And what that
10
does is give you molecular structure identification.
11
The molecules introduced into the instrument, and
12
chromatography means separation.
13
chromatography means separation at the gas phase.
So gas
14
So what we'll do is separate out all
15
of these compounds and then introduce them into the
16
mass analyzer.
17
sort of like my hand here, with very high energy
18
causing it to explode and that gives you fingerprint
19
identification.
20
drugs.
21
the ratios and so forth,
22
us the identification on that.
23
24
The mass analyzer hits the molecule,
That's how we identify each of the
We look to see the ions that are present,

other criteria that gives
That is also quantitive, telling us

how much is present.
25
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So that's the one part.
The other part is we run a gas

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chromatography for the other drugs and this will
pick up everything from strychnine to ectasy, and
pick all of those up on one screen.
unfortunately, we have even seen strychnine cases.
If I didn't like you, that's what I'd use.
nasty poison.
And
Good to know.
If I can, what it does it causes
That's a
constriction of all the muscles in your body.
And
10
your back can actually constrict to a point where
11
you break your own back.
12
that screen will pick up everything.
13
of that would have to go on for further
14
confirmation.
15
Yeah, so it is nasty.
But
And again, all
So your initial testing of the blood
16
sample was the allergic reaction test that gives you
17
an indication that the drug is present?
18
That's correct.
19
Now, did you, now, the gas
20
chromatography
21
GCMS.
22
GCMS is shorthand for that.
23
Is that an
instrument that is used in the lab?
24
Yes.
25
And this is an instrument that is used in
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every laboratory in the country, is that fair to
say?
Yes.
Very well accepted as what it does and
what it can do?
Absolutely.
And the GeMS instrument that is in your
laboratory, is it, do you check that on a regular
basis to make sure that it is calibrated properly
10
11
and giving you proper readings?

A
Yes.
We run it through a whole series.
12
We do what's called an auto-tune, which is a
13
compound is entered into it and we have to see a
14
particular fingerprint analysis.
15
standards, controls to make sure that the test is
16
running properly.
17
controlled.
18
We then run
So everything is fully
All right.
And how often do you do those
19
checks to make sure that the instrument is working
20
properly?
21
Every time we run the instrument.
22
How many samples at a time can this
23
24
25
instrument run?
A
Probably about 50, but out of that
10 percent are control samples, so run a control
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2
periodically.
And so out of the 40 that are not control
samples, are these all 40 samples from the same
subject?
No.
You might have John Doe's blood, you might
have Michael Brown's blood, you might have Suzie Q's
blood?
That's correct, there is no identification
10
as to the person when it is going through the
11
instrument.
12
associated with a particular person.
13
14
15
All we have is a number that's
So how is it that you insure that these
samples don't get mixed up?

A
Well, it is all done under chain of
16
custody and everything is sequenced and when we load
17
it into the instrument to check it and then the
18
person who takes the data off checks the same
19
sequence to make sure it's correct.
20
the samples, well, not on marijuana.
21
blood and urine ones.
22
differently.
23
Okay.
And we also run

We only do the
The other drugs are run
And so let's talk about the
24
positive test that, positive result that you got for
25
the cannabinoids, what is a cannabinoid?
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That's marijuana basically.
Cannabinoid
is the class of compounds, it's marijuana.
All right.
So once you received the
positive for cannabinoids, did you then run the
blood through the GCMS?
Yes.
And when you ran the blood of Michael
Brown through the GCMS, did you just check for
cannabinoids or do you check for all these other
10
drugs that you indicate was negative?
11
No, we specifically look for the
12
cannabinoids.
Delta-9, II-Hydroxy and the carboxy.
13
The reason for that is it is what's called a dwell
14
time.
15
for a particular compound.
It is how long the instrument gets to look
16
Because we are dealing with
17
nanograms, which are basically a billionth of a
18
gram.
19
as you are to be being a billionaire, that's what we
20
are looking for.
It is like you have a dollar, that's as close
21
So the instrument really has to focus
22
in.
23
criteria.
24
instrument in on the cannabinoids.
25
We can do screens, but that's under a different
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For this we would just use, focus the
All right.
And so when you ran the blood

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sample of Michael Brown through the GCMS, did you
get any quantitative information about, you had
talked about Delta-9, hydroxy and the carboxy
levels, did you get quantitive information about
those?
Yes.
Okay.
And so let's talk about what is the
difference between the Delta-9, hydroxy and carboxy.
And for everybody's clarification, the Delta-9, is
10
Delta-9-THC on your report, correct, and the hydroxy
11
is Il-Hydroxy-THC.
12
what we are calling it, is actually
13
Il-NOR-Delta-9-COOH, correct?
And then the carboxy, which is
14
Yes.
15
And so is that COOH the carboxy?
16
Yes.
17
Okay.
18
So it doesn't say carboxy, that is
what we are referring to, correct?
19
Yes.
20
When we talk about carboxy.
So can you
21
explain to the grand jurors, what are these
22
compounds and how are they different?
23
Okay.
The first compound, the Delta-9, is
24
the reason you smoke marijuana.
25
desired affects, the euphoria.
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When it is in your body your body
looks at it as a foreign substance.
metabolize or alter it chemically.
things it forms is the Il-Hydroxy-THC.
So it starts to
One of the
This is also a psychoactive compound,
but rarely do we find it because it is so short
lived in the human body.
further to be metabolized into the carboxy.
it carboxy because the full name for it is
And then it goes on

We call
10
Il-NOR-Delta-9-Tetrahydro-Cannabinoid-Carboxylic
11
acid.
12
13
Which I
can't say so we will call it
carboxy.
14
That's why we call it carboxy.
15
Okay.
16
And that's the final metabolite.
That's
17
the compound you hear, well, if you smoke a joint,
18
you can test positive for a month, which isn't true,
19
but that's what you hear.
20
21
So does,
so you explained that the
Delta-9-THC has a psychoanalytic effect?
22
Psychoactive.
23
Psychoactive.
24
25
So that's what makes people
feel differently when they smoke marijuana?

A
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Yes, euphoria and so forth.

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2
3
And then the Hydroxy-THC, does that have a
psychoactive effect on the human body?

A
find it.
following.
Yes, it does.
But as I said, we rarely
Only in a very, very acute use with death
And then on the II-Hydroxy molecule.
Yes.
Is there a psychoactive effect on the body
9
10
11
12
for that?
A
No, you could eat a pound of it, it
wouldn't do anything.
Q
Okay.
So why is it that these, why is it
13
that it is important to test for all three of these
14
compounds when you are testing the cannabinoids?
15
Well, for example, suppose you only had
16
the Delta-9 and nothing else, that would raise
17
severe questions about the sample.
18
the parent drug, the II-Hydroxy right off, you know
19
it is not going to be there, and you want to see the
20
Carboxy-THC.
21
by the individual and it was being metabolized.
22
You want to see
That tells you the drug was consumed
So you have a good handle on its use
23
and one verifies the other.
24
in a tube biologicals like blood and urine.
25
reason for that is it avoids any question was it
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contaminated or mixed up.
If we find it in the blood, we want
to find it in the urine because one validates the
other.
Okay.
And so in this testing, going off
what you said there, you ran the sample of urine
that you had received from Michael Brown that was
received from Michael Brown.
three for those three compounds.
10
You ran those same

Delta-9, hydroxy
and the carboxy, correct?
11
Yes.
12
So let me ask you because we can see from
13
your report that you, when you ran this through the
14
GCMS you got for the Delta-9-THC, you got 12
15
nanograms per milliliter.
16
urine you got negative for the Delta-9-THC?
Yet when you ran the
17
Yes.
18
Isn't that inconsistent, why would that be
19
20
different?
A
No, well, the Delta-9-THC is subject to
21
other things particularly in the urine.
22
bind up to the plastic in the container, the urinary
23
excretion due to dilution.
24
things can cause the urine to be negative for the
25
Delta-9.
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If it was negative for the carboxy,
that would be a real concern, but not for the
Delta-9.
Is the fact that the blood was 12
nanograms per milliliter and the urine was negative,
does that tell you anything about the recency the
drug may have been ingested?
assume the urine is the final process of the body,
processing the substance, correct?
10
In other words, I
The urine serves to get rid of chemicals
11
in your body, okay.
12
What you are looking at, the urine really doesn't
13
count as far as the interpreting it.
14
the blood tells you because Delta-9 in the blood
15
only hangs around for a short period of time, like
16
maybe two hours.
17
life.
18
last longer in the presence of the Delta-9, but when
19
you have it in there it goes to acute use, that's
20
within a couple of hours.
21
That's probably the main group.
The Delta-9 in
It has a relatively short half
It is in, produces its affects, the affects
Okay.
So, and you also had mentioned that
22
depending upon the sample that in the urine, the
23
urine sample could be diluted?
24
there could be more water in the urine or other
25
liquids or chemicals?
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Yes, it depends on the location of the
urine, how the kidneys were functioning, what's
going on in the body and there is a lot of variables
there.
concentration as far as impairment, you just don't
know.
That's why you can't interpret urine
Okay.
So then the next chemical or
compound was the hydroxy, which was negative when
you tested it in the blood, but it was greater than
10
25 nanograms per milliliter when you tested it in
11
the urine?
12
Yes.
13
Why is that not inconsistent?
14
The urine serves to collect and
15
concentrate waste products.
16
metabolites, and actually the Delta-9 is waste
17
product it wants to get rid of it.
18
The body looks at
So can you draw any conclusions about the
19
time or the recency of the ingestion of the THe
20
based upon the fact that the hydroxy was negative in
21
the blood and yet greater than 25 nanograms in the
22
urine?
23
Well, that alone would put it within ten
24
hours because you find it in the urine, but a short
25
half life, maybe a little less than that.
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it wouldn't narrow it down very much.
in the blood is the key.
The Delta-9
And then your, the levels that you
detected in the urine for the hydroxy, as well as
the Delta-9-Carboxy, those are quantified as greater
than so many nanograms, is that a cutoff level that
the lab has?
In our quantitation, we run a series of
standards going up the long.
Okay.
If it exceeds
10
our upper limit, we just report it as greater than
11
because it is an academic number.
12
Okay.
So there's no conclusion that you
13
could draw then that if it is greater than 25
14
nanograms, we can't say that.
15
could have been 100 nanograms, which would be four
16
times any level?
17
18
19
Well, then it was,
You can't say anything based on a urine
concentration for THC.

Q
Okay.
And so then let's talk about then
20
the testing, you mention the carboxy level in the
21
blood that you found.
22
would be concerned if you did not have carboxy if
23
you had a positive for the Delta-9-THC, but no
24
carboxy that would be problematic?
25
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So in this case you detected 45 nanograms
per milliliter of the carboxy in the blood of
Michael Brown, correct?
Yes.
And is that, can you draw any conclusions
from that the fact that it was also present in the
urine or the fact that it was 12 nanograms that the
THC, Delta-9THC was 12 nanograms per milliliter and
the carboxy was 45 nanograms per milliliter.
10
you draw any conclusions about the time of the
11
ingestion of the THC from that?
12
13
Can
Well, not from the urine, no, but as I
said, from the blood THC, yes.
14
Okay.
15
That is really a hard marker for a couple
16
of hours.
17
couple of days for the Carboxy-THC.
18
smoking like a rastafarian type stogey, it can go
19
longer.
20
The urine can easily test positive for a

And if you are
Can you tell anything from your findings
21
about the, about the, I don't know how to phrase
22
this, about how often the person may have ingested
23
THC?
24
if you were testing a sample from a chronic
25
marijuana user, somebody that smoked daily, maybe
In other words, would numbers look different
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1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
multiple times a day?

A
You can't tell the difference between an
acute dose and a chronic dose in one snapshot.

Q
When you say acute dose,
in your lingo
acute means?
A
Say within a couple of hours versus
somebody who smokes every day for a month or two.

Q
Okay.
So from your findings you can't
conclude that Michael Brown was a chronic marijuana
10
user versus perhaps this was just an acute dose.
11
other words, something that was taken within a
12
couple of hours prior to his death?
13
That's correct.
14
Okay.
In
Now, the 12 nanograms per
15
milliliter for the THe, you stated that that is the
16
compound that makes people feel the affects of
17
marijuana?
18
Yes.
19
How would you describe, or what do you
20
conclude from that finding that there were 12
21
nanograms per milliliter in his blood?
22
The Delta-9 is psychoactive, that means it
23
has an affect.
24
psychoactive in your blood stream, it is having an
25
affect.
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You can argue, well, more effect,
less effect, you can argue that yes, but it is
definitely having an affect on you.
looking at it in terms of the overall, well,
marijuana generally, you know, you smoke a joint and
you chill out, that's generally what happens.
does that have to happen?
a lot of other variables that are associated with it
that depends on your basic chemistry, your basic who
10
When you start
No, it doesn't.
Okay
There is
you are as it were.
11
So that it can have somewhat
12
different affects.
13
dose.
14
of wine with dinner, okay, or whatever with dinner,
15
that's one way of doing it.
16
Add to that the question of
If you take, take alcohol.
You have a glass
You are getting the drug,
it is
17
psychoactive, it is having an affect on you.
18
instead you have a quart with dinner, a quart of
19
scotch.
20
different effect.
21
concentration, how much goes in you.
22
Now
Well, that's going to produce a very

It is a function of the
Same thing is true with marijuana.
23
You can get desirable affects one level, but if you
24
get a massive dose, and you have to remember
25
marijuana is not regulated.
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purity you are getting.
getting Illinois ditch-weed or Acapulco Gold, for
lack of a better example, okay.
low purity or very high purity.
You don't know if you are
So it could be very
Again, the same thing can happen.
It
is like having a glass of wine with dinner versus a
bottle of scotch.
affects depending on how much you use.
You can get very different
Is there also a variable that would
10
perhaps effect how it was felt by the person
11
depending on their body mass or their weight?
12
in other words, if a smaller, we know this to be
13
true with alcohol, a smaller person can have a glass
14
of alcohol and a larger person maybe twice or three
15
times the size can have the same amount of alcohol
16
and the smaller person's blood alcohol level will be
17
higher, you would expect it, would that be correct?
18
Yes.
See, marijuana is technically
19
classified as a hallucinogen.
20
it alters your perception of your surroundings.
21
you see things, okay.
22
your mind.
23
is why it is classified as hallucinogen.
24
25
So,
Cause what it does is

How
What information comes into
It slows it down and distorts it.
That
Technically speaking, I mean, you are

not look at pretty birds and flying snakes and so
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forth, but you are altering your perception of
senses.
have in you, the more effect you can get out of it.
That's a function of dose.
So the more you
Some people, for example, with
marijuana, it is bound up to nonspecific fat sites.
So if you smoke a joint the first time, you don't
really get a good buzz out of it.
that is the drug is binding up to nonspecific fat so
it is not hitting your brain, it is not giving you
10
The reason for
the effect.
11
After a couple of times these
12
nonspecific sites are filled.
So the drug is now
13
free,
14
the threshold and starts producing the effect.
it gets to your brain and produces, gets to
15
The more you have, the greater the
16
effect, and it becomes variable at high end.
17
you have, take a mil of highly concentrated
18
Delta-9THC, that will give you a completely
19
different effect in smoking a joint.
20
studies they have even done with injections.
21
can't really, with alcohol it is straight line
22
depressant.
23
more it depresses you.
24
your nervous system.
25
from working, makes you goofy, okay.
FAX 314-241-6750
So if
A lot of the
They
That just means the more you drink, the

I don't mean sad, I mean
It slows it down, stops it

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With THC you can come up, you hit a
1
2
certain threshold level that will produce an affect.
As you go up from there, if you take a massive dose,
you can get significantly different affects.
affects that are not generally associated with
marijuana.
Those
So we've discussed a little bit last week,
Sheila and I had a long conversation with you as
well this morning,
I spoke with you, we talked about
10
the affects that you might see or experience, a
11
person might experience if they were ingesting THC.
12
And starting with euphoria being the feeling of
13
happiness or well being, perhaps?
14
Yes, you are feeling about.
15
That's kind of like the chill, right?
16
Yes.
17
And then the next one perhaps could be
18
lethargy?
19
Yeah.
20
And that's when you don't really feel like
21
you have the energy to get up and you're just going
22
to lay around?
23
You don't do things.
24
After that would be a possible paranoia?
25
Yes.
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And then would there be hallucination?
It is possible to go to a full-blown
hallucination, yes.
Okay.
Paranoia and psychotic episodes.
So when we talked about, you had mentioned
when we talk about hallucinations, it doesn't mean
the person sees pink elephants.
they're not perceiving reality the way it is,
10
It means that
correct?
11
That is correct.
12
Okay.
And so if you have a massive dose
13
of THC, could you experience the hallucination
14
and/or the psychosis if you had a high enough dose
15
of THC?
16
17
18
If you got a high enough dose, you could
have a psychotic episode into hallucinations, yes.

Q
Now, in this particular case when you
19
tested the blood and you got 12 nanograms per
20
milliliter for the Delta-9-THC, do you consider that
21
a high dose?
22
Okay
23
What conclusions did you make from that?
24
Well, you have to put things in
25
perspective.
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think he was about 300 pounds.
of 12 nanograms in a large person, that shows it was
a large dose.
So for concentration
In a small person, say like
100 pounds to get to 12 nanograms wouldn't take a
lot.
you talk about a larger body mass, just like
drinking alcohol, larger persons can drink more
alcohol because they have the receptacle to hold it.
10
A single joint could easily do that.
But when
Now, let's compare, because I think most
11
of us probably have had the experience of consuming
12
alcohol and over time feeling the affects of
13
alcohol.
14
things that I think we all can probably relate to is
15
that, for example, if I were to consume a certain
16
amount of alcohol and my mother who doesn't drink
17
might consume the same amount of alcohol, we have
18
the same body mass, she may experience different
19
affects than I might because I have experienced
20
drinking alcohol.
21
And, you know, so, for example, one of the
Now, some people call that tolerance,
22
is there any similar effect from people that are
23
used to using marijuana, could they have the same
24
levels in their system but experience different
25
feelings?
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Well, of course different people with the
same concentration can experience different
feelings.
example was the correct straight line depressant.
With marijuana it's the reverse.
is naive will get much less affects than a person
who has been using it and that's due to the non
specificity of binding sites.
But see, with marijuana, like your
So the person who
So based upon your finding that there were
10
12 nanograms of THC, 12 nanograms per milliliter of
11
Delta-9-THC in Michael Brown's blood, first off, can
12
you make any conclusions from your findings within a
13
reasonable degree of toxicology certainty or as to
14
the recency in which he may have ingested the THC?
15
16
17
Yes, it is within a couple of hours, maybe
two, three hours on the outside.

Q
Can you make any conclusions or do you
18
have an opinion as to the dose that Michael Brown
19
may have ingested based upon your tests and your
20
test results?
21
Given his large body mass, yes.
22
have been a very significant dose.
23
just toking on like a simple joint.
24
25
It would
It wouldn't be
Now, based upon your testing and your
conclusions, can you make any conclusions about the
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level of impairment that Michael Brown may have
experienced if, before he passed?
I can't tell you how he was impaired.
is like predicting what somebody would do.
tell you that.
present at a significant concentration that
represents a large dose into Mr. Brown.
8
9
It
I can't
I can tell you that the drug is
How he would have behaved and what he

would have done I cannot predict.
I know the drug
10
was having an affect and was impairing his nervous
11
system.
12
You would consider he was impaired in some
14
Yes.
15
But you cannot draw any conclusions that
13
way?
16
he was suffering or that he was experiencing
17
hallucinations or having a psychotic break?
18
That is correct.
19
Urn, we discussed when we came out to talk
20
to you last week, we also discussed with you, we
21
asked you if you were familiar with the process
22
called waxing?
23
Yes.
24
And you indicated that you were familiar
25
with what that is?
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Yes.
Can you describe for the grand jurors what
you understand waxing to be and what happens?
Waxing is a process of concentrating the
Delta-9 present in marijuana.
It uses gases like
butane and basically it extracts the Delta-9 out of
the marijuana and it is in a highly concentrated
form.
of it.
10
So you get a lot more bang for the buck out
So you can ingest a smaller piece or
11
smaller physical quantity and get a more
12
concentrated level of THC?
13
A much greater effect, yes.
14
Okay.
And is there any difference if you
15
ingest a much higher concentration of THC, is there
16
a difference in how quickly you would feel those
17
affects or how long it would last?
18
Well, it would depend at that point if you
19
were inhaling it, putting it under your tongue,
20
smoking it, however you were doing it.
21
generally speaking, it is less than ten minutes.
22
23
24
25
But
And less than ten minutes for you to feel
the affects or it would last less than ten minutes?

A
No, for you to feel the affects.
The
affects would come within ten minutes.
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If you ingested a highly concentrated
amount of THC, do you have any opinion as to how
long those affects would last that you would
experience some type of effect?
Probably four to five hours.
Now, this morning we talked about, and we
did also briefly last week talk about levels of THC
that would indicate or that legally would indicate
someone is presumed impaired.
10
Yes.
11
Now, states such as Colorado and
12
California, are you familiar,
are you aware that
13
those states have legalized marijuana either
14
medically or in the case of California
15
recreationally or Colorado, correct?
16
Yes.
17
And we discussed the fact that those
18
states have made determinations as to the level that
19
they would if they detect in the person's blood that
20
would indicate impairment much in the same way that
21
alcohol level of .08 is presumptively in most
22
states, in the State of Missouri you are presumed
23
impaired.
24
25
Are you aware of the level that

Colorado and California have set for them to presume
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someone is impaired?
Yes.
What is that?
5 nanograms per mil.
So in this case, Michael Brown's level was
over twice that; is that correct?
Yes.
But again, you're not, and the same thing
with actually the consumption of alcohol, it impairs
10
people, but their affects might be different
11
depending on some of the factors that we've talked
12
about?
13
Yes.
14
Urn --
15
MS. ALIZADEH:
I don't have any further
16
questions right now.
Sheila, do you have any
17
questions for Dr.
18
MS. WHIRLEY:
Regarding the waxing, if
19
Michael Brown ingested through the waxing method
20
that you discussed, would the butane appear in his
21
body?
22
No.
Butane is so volatile, if I squirted
23
it here on the desk, talked to you and go back, it's
24
gone.
So it is extremely volatile.
25
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MS. WHIRLEY:
And in this case, was he

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2
3
actually checked to see if butane was in his brain?

A
Yes, that's part of our routine.
We would
check for volatiles such as butane, other inhalants.

MS. WHIRLEY:
Okay.
Obviously, it didn't
appear it is so volatile or whatever.
way to know whether or not he participated in waxing
or not, there is no evidence?
Not based on our testing, that is correct.

MS. WHIRLEY:
10
everything Kathi asked.
11
jurors.
12
There is no
MS. ALIZADEH:
Okay.
I'm not sure of
I will open it for the
I just want to real quickly
13
be clear, you cannot say, you're not saying,
14
assuming you're not saying that Michael Brown was
15
hallucinating or suffering a psychotic break, there
16
is no way to know that; is that correct?
17
18
I'm
I can't say that based on our testing,
that is correct.
19
MS. ALIZADEH:
But based upon the levels
20
that you tested or that you got in your testing, you
21
consider that this dose was within two to three
22
hours and it was a large dose of THe?
23
24
That is correct.
MS. ALIZADEH:
Any more questions?
25
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question about a person's hydration level, how that
affects the test.
incident the individual on the street in August for
four plus hours, do you know how that may effect the
result in any way,
Okay.
Either prior to or even in this
if it would?
What you are looking at there is an
alteration between the water and the fat in your
body and you are depleting the water,
becomes a hire percentage.
so the fat
Not a lot of difference
10
because we lose too much water,
11
imbalance, you have a heart attack and die.
12
there is a difference on that.
13
So
On a drug like marijuana where it is
14
highly lepid soluble,
15
have more,
16
it would do.
17
anything.
fat soluble,
That's all
So it really wouldn't alter much of
Okay.
A
it would just
it would soak up more of it.
18
19
you have electrolyte
Thank you.
Yes.
20
Dr.
, with
21
reference to the psychotic affects of certain types
22
of drugs,
23
trying to think how to phrase this.
24
is at a certain level, you mention that if they
25
smoked for a month at a time or two weeks at a time,
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they can build up a certain level in their body.
Can a massive dose at any particular point produce
an entirely different affect than what a person is
used to, you know what I'm saying?
Yes.
It is kind of hard to
explain.
If somebody who smokes is used to a
certain type of reaction out of a level of THC, all
of the sudden you see a spike in the quantity of it,
10
what potentially could happen.
11
could be totally different?
12
Yes.
Is it something that
See, what you are looking at is like
13
a steady state so that using the drug on a regular
14
basis.
15
you can switch over into complete toxicity.
16
the drugs behave that way that you are stable and
17
then it jumps up.
Then you get a massive dose, it jumps up and
18
Most of
Some drugs, like a couple of the
19
amphetamines.
20
tomorrow, then you take it the next day and it's
21
lethal.
22
Marijuana is not like that.
23
taken.
24
you are going to get a big difference in the affects
25
and could be completely different.
FAX 314-241-6750
You can take the same dose today,
Those are the real dangerous drugs.

So your point is well
You are stable and you have a massive dose

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Thank you.
MS. WHIRLEY:
Could this amount of THC
that was found in the blood be, is it possible that
someone who is ingesting that amount on a regular
basis and not be dead?
7
8
Well, marijuana really isn't lethal.

MS. WHIRLEY:
Okay.
So it couldn't kill him.
As far as the
affects, it would take a lot of marijuana on a
10
regular basis to stay at this kind of level.
11
would say that's less likely.
12
13
MS. WHIRLEY:
A
14
15
16
So I
That's less likely.
Yeah.
MS. WHIRLEY:
That you are consuming this
amount of marijuana?
A
17
On a daily basis.
MS. WHIRLEY:
18
basis?
19
On a daily basis or regular
Yes.
20
Would a
21
cigar size,
22
cigar and they put the marijuana in it.
23
cigar size give you that kind of dose?
24
mentioned a joint, but now we're talking about a
25
cigar?
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Is that possible?
Yes.
See again, purity
like low end purity is like 3 percent Delta-9, high
end is like 20 percent.
okay.
the higher end stuff?
So that's a huge range,
Is it possible that the cigar got stuck with

Yes, it is.
You can reach this without
7
8
waxing, I guess regular marijuana in the cigar?

I'm not sure, I'm not sure.
I think it
would be possible, but I'm not positive on that.
10
I want to make
11
sure I understand regarding larger person,
12
about the affects of --
13
MS. ALIZADEH:
14
you talk
Can you speak up a little
bit, sorry?
15
I just wanted to make
16
sure when you are talking about that, you are
17
talking about the difference between the affects of
18
a person who is larger versus the content in the
19
blood.
20
size of the person, but the content in the blood
21
would be.
22
The affects would not be affected by the
That is correct.
It is a dose response.
23
So it's like a smaller person takes less, a larger
24
person takes more, you get the same affects.
25
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question.
When you smoke marijuana and
he's talking about a blunt, through the cigar
wrapper versus the cigarette papers, are you -- you
are likely ingesting more of the marijuana when you
are smoking it in a blunt versus the cigarette
papers because they burn much quicker and smoke,
would you agree or not?
Yeah, if it burns much quicker, yes.
MS. WHIRLEY:
Not that we are marijuana
10
smokers, you know, but it appears if you watch it on
11
TV, that the cigarette is burning much faster than
12
when they smoke with a blunt.
13
lot of people do the blunt?
14
I think that's why a
Yes, because it is the dose and it's the
15
destruction of the drug while you are not inhaling,
16
yes.
17
That raises a
18
question.
How is waxing taken into the body, is it
19
smoked or is it, I mean, is it a waxy, sticky
20
substance?
21
Yeah, it could be.
It could be put in a
22
blunt and smoked, it could be whatever as long as it
23
gets into your body.
24
25
MS. ALIZADEH:
know,
Is there a depending, you
I think we can all understand that marijuana
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can be eaten, it can be smoked, apparently it can be
injected, the THe at least.
in how quickly it would impair you or how quickly it
would be in your system depending on how it is
ingested.
Is there a difference
Sure, oral is the worst.
Anything that
goes in your mouth goes to your stomach.
It has a
bunch of acids in there, it chews it up and then it
goes to the liver.
Once it is picked up by the
10
blood, it goes into the liver.
11
up as metabolism.
12
least bang for the buck and probably take the
13
longest because it has to be absorbed and
14
metabolized and so son.
15
The liver chews it
So the oral would give you the
When you inhale something it goes
16
into your lungs, okay.
And the heart blood goes
17
from the right side to the lungs, to the left side
18
and to the body, and goes to what is called the
19
carotid arteries here in the aortic arch.
20
anything that goes in by inhalation gets up to the
21
brain within like two, maybe three heartbeats.
22
it gets in and gives you a much quicker effect.
23
Especially than oral.
24
25
So
So
So just
in your experience, we'll talk to others who have
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more hands on with this specific,
then would you assume that an autopsy or examination
would show in the internal organs would be able to
tell if something was smoked or ingested orally?
No, reasonably, no.
in your experience
Not unless there was
something really unusual,
silica gel, or something like that.

MS. ALIZADEH:
9
10
11
Or perhaps if the stomach
contents contained.
A
Leafy green material in the stomach
contents.
12
13
like you are inhaling
MS. ALIZADEH:
Right.
Any other
questions?
14
You said
15
this THe stUff, if I heard you correctly, it binds
16
with the fat cells; is that right?
17
Yeah, it does.
18
Is that why you get hungry
19
after you smoke a joint?
20
saying.
21
22
23
I'm just
No.
MS. ALIZADEH:
I don't know what you are
talking about?
24
25
Seriously,
I don't either apparently.

A
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No, that has nothing to do with it.

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it is, reasonably that is lowering the blood sugar.
So you start feeling hungry and get the munchies.

MS. WHIRLEY:
the blood sugar?
You said marijuana lowers
That would be my, yes, that's what I
believe.
If it lowers
the blood sugar,
I had an uncle who is diabetic,
when his blood sugar would be very low, he would
10
get,
11
he would get agitated very easily.
12
a possibility?
13
I'm just going to say it he would get volatile,
So would that be
That would be a possibility, yes.
If the
14
blood sugar got down low enough, that would take,
15
that would be work.
16
17
18
And would the Delta-9-THC

levels have an affect on the blood sugar level?
A
No.
19
So the higher the
20
Delta-THC would not necessarily constitute a lower
21
blood sugar level?
22
Well, it would indicate that, yes, okay,
23
but it hasn't been like so much THC and so much
24
sugar, it hasn't done that.
25
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to the readings of the 45 grams, and in your
opinion, how well could Michael Brown function?
That's really tough to say just looking at
the lab test.
It is really tough to say.
the drug was impairing the system, the exact parts
of his nervous system that were impaired, how that
would be demonstrated I can't predict.

MS. ALIZADEH:
I know
Any other questions?
So you
10
are saying he could experience some kind of
11
impairment?
12
Yes, it would be impairment.
13
14
15
Or he could be functioning
normally?
A
No, not normal.
The impairment would be
16
present.
17
based on him personally, his history with marijuana,
18
his underlying chemistry, a whole bunch of other
19
factors.
20
can't predict.
21
because it is psychoactive.
22
The degree of the impairment would be
So how it would exactly affect him is, I

I know it would have an affect
MS. WHIRLEY:
So a person could be
23
impaired, because they have this in their system,
24
but they could be sitting here talking and you might
25
not even know they were impaired?
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That's correct.
I have one
more thing I want to ask you.
person who is naive to the drug may not feel its
affects, but somebody who is more experienced with
the drugs would have a greater effect on them?
Yes.
Okay.
8
9
10
Thank you.
That's just through the non specificity of
the drug.
MS. WHIRLEY:
11
12
You said earlier the
Again, when you talk about
the greater affect coming up, going from what
13
talked about, that does not necessarily
14
mean that they are going to act impaired to someone
15
who is sitting there talking to them?
16
17
No,
I can't predict what they will or will
not do.
18
MS. WHIRLEY:
19
MS. ALIZADEH:
20
Right, okay.
Anyone else?
One more question from me,
21
I know you say you are not a
22
medical doctor, but was there any reports or any
23
notes stating the fact that when he was younger,
24
while he was in high school or anything that he was
25
taking any hypertension medicine or any mental --
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I'm not aware of anything.
Okay, thank you.

MS. ALIZADEH:
To tell you,
I do not
believe we have any kind of medical history or
anything of that nature on him.
Because my question would
be, could some of the drugs be in his system versus
when he was smoking it.
Could that, you know --
Well, it is possible some drugs could be
10
present, but below detection, our cutoff limits.
11
There is actually a theory that says you have your
12
first,
13
molecules are still floating around in your body,
14
which is interesting.
15
present at very low levels.
from your first spoon of baby food, the
16
17
18
MS. ALIZADEH:
So there could be other drugs
And just to be clear, THC
is only found in marijuana, correct?

A
19
Yes.
MS. ALIZADEH:
It is not like we hear
20
about people saying I had a poppyseed bagel and so
21
now I'm going to test positive, THC is only detected
22
if you have ingested marijuana, correct.
23
24
25
Yes.
MS. ALIZADEH:
Or the concentrated level
of THC?
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Yes.
One more question, it is
my last.
these levels would it be possible for him to have
been around somebody smoking?
There is no way with
Passive, no.
7
8
9
So these levels do not

show passive intake of this drug?
A
No, this is active.
10
Okay.
MS. ALIZADEH:
11
12
All right
this concludes this witness' testimony.
13
14
Anyone else?
(End of the testimony of Dr.

.)
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
EXAMINATION
BY MS. WHIRLEY:
23
Good morning.
24
Hello.
25
Introduce yourself to the grand jurors and
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spell your name, please.

A
My name is
It is
I'm going to ask that you keep your voice
3
4
up because there are quite a few fans on, we can't
hear really well.
speak loud enough to have a conversation, okay?
I generally stand back here,
Okay.
So,
10
I'm a forensic scientist for St. Louis
11
, what is your occupation?
County Police department.
12
What does that mean,
13
Uh,
crime scenes for bodily fluid.
15
when needed, testify in court.
17
forensic scientist?
I analyze evidence collected from
14
16
so
I write reports and
How long have you been doing that, been in
that capacity as forensic scientist?
18
Almost nine years.
19
Nine years.
20
Yes.
21
And what type of education is required to
22
23
Always with St. Louis County?
do what you do?

A
Urn, well, what is required is a bachelor's
24
degree in biology or a science of that nature.
25
have a bachelor's degree in microbiology and a
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master's of business administration from Miami
University of Ohio.
3
4
that out.
67.
We have your CV and we are going to pass

It is marked as Grand Jury Exhibit Number
7
8
9
10

Q
(By Ms. Whirley)
It kind of outlines your
training and education as you provided it for me,

correct?
11
Yes.
12
Okay.
Now, what is, you told us what a
13
forensic scientist is or kind of the job
14
description, what do you do on a day-to-day basis?
15
That's what we want to know.
16
Well,
I test evidence that comes in for
17
various cases for, when I say bodily fluids,
18
blood, semen and saliva.
19
possible DNA from trace cases, and then write
20
reports.
21
Okay.
it is
I also retain samples for
And so you do the initial screening
22
of items before it goes to DNA for analysis, or to
23
the DNA unit for analysis?
24
25
sections.
FAX 314-241-6750
Yes.
In our lab we have two separate
So I would,
I'm in the biology section, I

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would do the screening and then if there is anything
that needed to be forwarded or retained for DNA,
that would be packaged and retained and that would
go to the DNA unit and they would do their analysis.
Do you know who did the DNA analysis in
this case?
Yes.
Who was that?
10
Okay.
Did you work alone doing the
11
biology on this case or did someone else work with
12
you?
13
I worked alone,
I did the case.
We did
14
have a, we are training a new biologist, so she was
15
actually with me for part of it.
16
Okay.
So I don't know if you actually
17
told us what type of analysis you performed.
18
said you check body fluids and that kind of thing.
19
What kind of items could have possible DNA on them?
20
In general?
21
Yeah,
22
Well, body fluids tend to have high
You
in general.
23
amounts of DNA, so blood from a lot of DNA, as well
24
as semen and then saliva.
25
I'm sure you've heard,
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I don't know if you know

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about trace DNA.
Tell us what that means.
Okay.
Trace evidence is what is left
behind when a material or a person made contact, so
that can be footprints,
hair, fibers, or DNA.
as a trace case, is something that the biologist
doesn't actually examine, I don't actually test it,
but I would save samples to be tested for DNA.
10
fingerprints,
soil samples,
In our lab, what we refer to
Some examples of this are, urn, like a
11
swab taken from the steering wheel of a recovered
12
stolen vehicle where it isn't blood, you are trying
13
to find out who stole the car, who was driving the
14
car.
15
It could be a shirt left behind from
16
a robbery, so you would swab that for DNA, or a
17
knife from a domestic assault.
18
who was actually holding the knife, so you would
19
swab it for user DNA.
20
You wanted to know
So those are the kind of things that
21
we consider trace.
22
fluid that we are testing for, but we think that
23
there might be DNA left behind.
24
this is is from allele cells or skin cells.
25
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Where it is not actually a body
And usually what
Now, at the crime scene the officer or

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someone actually collects what they think might be
useful for the lab in determining whether there is
DNA present, correct?
Yes.
Someone is swabbing and someone is doing
that at the crime scene and then they submit it to
you.
presented to you in order for it to be useful, for
you to determine whether or not it has DNA or
10
11
Is there a certain way that that must be
potentially-A
Well,
I mean, we don't know because you
12
can't see anything.
So a lot of times the crime
13
scene will swab things themselves and submit the
14
actual swabs, or they will submit actual items like
15
knives or shirts that I would then swab.
16
Okay.
17
Areas that I think would be useful areas
18
19
to swab.
Q
Does the crime scene or the case officer
20
tell you a little bit about the case for you to
21
figure out what might be useful?
22
Yes.
You do get a brief scenario of what
23
happened.
24
what is relevant or probative.
25
shirt, typically I would swab areas that would most
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Like that gives you information about

For example, for a

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likely touch the skin.
neckline, things like that.
So like cuffs or the
Can you tell us how you began a case,
mean, it comes to the lab,
you get ahold of it?
I guess, and then how do
When evidence is submitted to the lab, it
is submitted to the front counter where evidence
technicians take it in, make sure that it is
properly packaged and sealed.
10
improperly packaged evidence.
11
We do not except
So you would get evidence, either in
12
a box or a package, it would also have a receipt
13
with it.
14
of the pertinent information as when the incident
15
happened, the location, what kind of offense it is,
16
urn, who the victim is, who the suspect is, and then
17
what actually is inside of the packages or boxes.
18
And the evidence receipt just details all
So this evidence is then entered into
19
our lab system, the actual evidence would be stored
20
in our vaults, a secure location, until it is
21
actually worked and the receipts would, they're
22
stored back in biology and then we work them.
23
depends, but usually first end, first out.
24
the crimes against persons cases first,
25
more of a priority.
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It
We do
they are
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2
And you go to the vault and get the
evidence when it is your case?
Yes.
And you verify the things you just told us
what is marked as on the evidence receipt is
actually what is contained in the box or the bag?
Yes.
And that it is sealed, you verify it
9
10
11
12
13
14
hasn't been tampered with?

A
Well, it comes, when it comes into the
lab, we don't accept improperly packaged evidence.

Q
And that's your way of verifying that it
is not tampered with?

A
Right.
15
16
17

Q
(By Ms. Whirley)
I was going to ask you,
18
let me move on to something else.
19
State's Exhibit Number 68, which is one of your
20
crime lab reports,
I think it is the first one.
21
MS. ALIZADEH:
22
MS. WHIRLEY:
23
first one, it's the second one.
24
with the baseball cap, Q22.
25
FAX 314-241-6750
What's marked as
MS. ALIZADEH:
Is Q22 the first one?

Actually, it is not the
This is the one
Do you have that one?
You want me to pass this

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along?
MS. WHIRLEY:
Why don't we pass both of
them,
if you don't mind, both Grand Jury Exhibit 68,
which starts with specimen Q22.
actually the first one I think you probably worked
that starts with specimen Ql.
those in front of you?
And then 69 is
You have both of
do.
(By Ms. Whirley) We are going to talk a
10
little bit more specifically about the Michael Brown
11
case or the Michael Brown shooting.
12
photographs also,
13
this case?
is that right,
14
I did.
15
We will look at those.
16
17
You took some
associated with
And tell me why
did you take photographs?

A
I can't, when I write my report,
I can
18
describe the items with words, but a picture is
19
always better.
20
Okay.
All right.
And you take those
21
pictures for yourself as you are writing your
22
report,
is that what you told us?
23
What was that?
24
You take those pictures for your purposes
25
to complete your report?
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No, we are not required to take pictures.
In specific cases we do take pictures.
case, I decided to take pictures of certain items.
Okay.
In this
Now, in this specific case, we see
a Q and then numbers.
represents?
Can you tell us what that
A Q is, it just means a questioned item,
so it is something that I am actually testing.
Whereas later in the report you might see a K, and
10
the K stands for a known, which is just a known
11
reference standard taken from a person to be used
12
for elimination or comparison purposes in DNA.
13
it is a known reference standard which means it came
14
from that person in the forms of blood or saliva.
15
And
So you know whose blood or saliva you
17
Yes.
18
And you had a known reference sample from
16
19
have?
Michael Brown; is that correct?
20
Yes.
21
Is that in the form of blood?
22
His blood.
23
Okay.
24
25
Did you have a known sample of the
officer, Darren Wilson?

A
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Yes.

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Was that in the form of saliva?
Yes, it was a buccal swab.
It is what you referred to as a buccal
A buccal swab is a swab that is used to
4
5
swab?
rub against the side of the mouth, against the
cheek.
coming from the cheek cells, but in the form of
saliva.
10
So it takes, actually, where the DNA is
So that was your way of having a DNA
11
sample from both the officer and Michael Brown; is
12
that correct?
13
Yes.
14
Now, you can see we all have a copy of
15
your report dated, it was entered, it says
16
8/11/2014, approved on 8/19/2014.
17
administrative approval mean?
18
What does
That is the signature of a person who
19
tech-reviewed my report.
20
is just kind of a double-check done by a peer in the
21
same discipline to insure accuracy between the
22
analyst notes and the report.
23
24
25
What a tech review is, it
Now Ql through Q21 are items that you, I
guess, that are questionable, is that what you said?

A
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Yes.
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of also?
4
5
Are these items that you took photographs
I did not take photos of every single
Okay.
item.
All right.
Let's start to go
through these.
This tells us the items that you
checked based on the information that you were told
and the items that were brought to you; is that
correct?
10
Yes.
11
All right.
12
13
So you did,
just go ahead and
tell us what you did.

A
Well, you are looking at the first report.
14
I started with Michael Brown's clothing.
15
want me to go through Ql or say everything I did?
16
Tell us what you did.
So do you
You can go through
17
by Ql, whatever works for you, as long as you tell
18
us, you know, what you did.
19
Sure.
Ql was Michael Brown's T-shirt,
20
just, we first do a visual examination so I would
21
describe it, what it looked like.
22
It had red brown stains, there were
23
several holes in his shirt.
24
And then I also did a swabbing of the non blood
25
stained areas for possible trace,
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I tested for blood.
since it was

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alleged that there was contact between Officer
Wilson and Michael Brown.
It was hard to do this because the
shirt was extremely bloody.
areas that were not blood stained.
So I just swabbed the
You, of course, always wear gloves when
you are handling any items; is that correct?
Yes, we wear personal protective
equipment, which includes a lab coat, a mask,
10
gloves, we use sterile equipment, we open one
11
package of evidence at a time, we clean our work
12
area.
13
And these are things you do to prevent
14
contamination or cross-contamination; is that
15
correct?
16
Yes.
17
Just to kind of,
I guess, make it go a
18
little faster since everyone has a copy of the
19
report, all of these items you actually, did you
20
test all of these items?
21
I have to go through
22
Yeah, go ahead and look at it.
23
All of the clothing I tested,
24
blood.
25
Michael Brown's hands, those were all tested for
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blood as well.
scrapings that were submitted, and I tested those
and also swabbed those again for trace in case there
was contact, such as scratching, things like that.

MS. ALIZADEH:
Yes.
MS. ALIZADEH:
10
Can I ask you what did you
swab for trace, the fingernail scrapings?
And then there were fingernail
So these fingernail
scrapings were done by someone else, correct, like

at the morgue?
11
Yeah.
They labeled it fingernail
12
scrapings, clippings, but they actually,
13
back, they were actually clippings.
14
MS. ALIZADEH:
15
Nail clippings.
They take nail clippings.
16
MS. ALIZADEH:
17
MS. WHIRLEY:
18
I looked
Okay.
That was forwarded to the
lab, the nail clippings?
19
Yes.
So what we do we swab the underside
20
that you can tell for possible trace in case, again,
21
there was contact.
22
MS. ALIZADEH:
All right.
I didn't know
23
if you were swabbing a swab when you talked about
24
it.
25
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No,
I swab them.

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(By Ms. Whirley)
It looks like you
swabbed, there was a swab collected and forwarded to
you that represented the Brown's, the left back of
his hands; is that correct?
Yes.
hand?
Yes.
And right back of hand?
10
Yes.
Those were all tested for blood.
12
13
Q11, apparent skin or hardened nasal mucus?

A
Yes, when I, when I received it, all the
14
information really said was something from the
15
exterior of the door.
16
ultimately know right away what it was.
17
it apparent skin, or harden nasal mucus, because I
18
wasn't sure.
19
of it.
20
And looking at it,
It was very small.
Okay.
I did
So I called
I took a picture
We'll look at those pictures.
And
21
you were told, or it was on the evidence receipt,
22
where these items came from?
23
Yes.
24
Like from the front exterior door of the
25
Ferguson Police Department Vehicle 108 for that one?
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Yes.
Then there's also a swab of the rear
passenger exterior door of that same vehicle, which
is Q12?
Yes.
All right.
And then blood stains from the
area on Canfield.
And then Q15, actually, the other
items that I talk about when I mention swabs taken
from Brown's hands,
it says suspect Brown, and now
10
on Q15 it says victim's uniform pants, and that is
11
the officer; is that correct?
12
Yes.
13
The officer's uniform pants when you label
14
as suspect and victim, what does that mean for you?
15
When we receive the evidence receipts that
16
come with the evidence, they are,
17
assigned a victim or a suspect.
18
this,
19
to the lab.
20
From the police?
21
Right.
22
So it is not that you are determining who
23
each case is
I don't declare
it was what was already like that when it came
the victim is or who is the suspect is in this case?
24
No.
25
So you have the officer's uniform pants
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and you swab the left thigh, why did you do that?
Well, those swabs were actually taken by
crime scene.
I'm sorry, that's true, you didn't swab,
they swabbed it.
about why that was swabbed or you just tested it?
And did you have any information
Well, all I knew was that there was
possible blood on the officer's pants.
swab that to find out whose blood that was.
10
Okay.
So they did
And then there was swabs from the
11
interior left front door of vehicle number 108,
12
which is Q18?
13
Yes.
14
Okay.
15
And then you also received swabs of
the officer's weapon; is that correct?
16
Yes.
17
Now, in Q19, which is the weapon, it says
18
blood was presumptively detected.
19
sufficient for confirmatory testing.
20
mean?
21
Well,
Quantity was not

What does that
I was able to do a presumptive test
22
for blood, which is just the first step in our
23
process of testing blood.
24
sensitive test, but it is not specific.
25
indicates that the substance you are testing for is
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Presumptive test, it is a

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So it
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possibly there.
positive.
In this case, blood, so that was
To do a confirmatory test, you need
to actually take more of that sample.
wasn't that much to begin with,
any more of a sample since there wasn't that much,
it would have to go to DNA.

So rather than,
Since there
I didn't want to use
I guess, use up any
more of a sample, I just indicated that confirmatory
10
testing was impossible, but blood was presumptively
11
detected.
12
13
So in this case the DNA section could test
further?
14
Yes.
15
Okay.
And you do say that the swabs were
16
retained.
You also tested Q20, is Wilson's blue
17
uniform shirt, a swab was submitted?
18
No,
I actually swabbed.
19
You swabbed it, okay.
So you swabbed the
20
left side of his shirt and collar area.
21
just, the whole shirt was submitted and you
22
determined what to swab?
23
Yes.
24
Okay.
25
So you
And the uniform pants, is that the
same thing in Q21 with the swabbing?
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I did do the swabbing.
And since there
was, there was a blood stain on the pants.
I was swabbing for trace,
Okay.
So when
I avoided that stain.
And now if we look at the other
report, which is Grand Jury Exhibit 68, Q22 through
Q26.
different day, or is entered on a different day, and
it is also,
that correct?
Now, this report looks like it is done on a
I imagine, tested on a different day; is
10
Yes.
11
Do you know why it wasn't all given to you
12
at the same time?
13
Right.
And typically this happens when
14
you are working a case right away, right after it
15
happens.
16
at the same time.
17
that I had on the first date and then we received
18
more to be tested.
19
date,
Sometimes all the evidence doesn't come in

So in this case,
I worked all
So I did that work on a later
like a week later.
I work part-time.
20
Okay.
21
So everything would have been done on a
22
23
24
25
Tuesday or a Thursday.
Q
That makes me think of something else.
This case was done pretty quickly,

A
FAX 314-241-6750
correct?
Yes.

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And by that,
I mean, you had mentioned
that kind of first-come first-serve,
or something to
that effect, generally as you work cases.
case given a priority?
Was this
It was.
Because of the significance?
The significance and the sensitivity of
8
9
the nature of the case.

Q
Okay.
So there was a baseball cap, Q22,
10
that a swabbing, it says, so you swabbed the
11
baseball cap?
12
I did.
13
And then the flip flop,
a separate
14
swabbing was retained for trace.
15
something with the flip flop in Q23?
16
Did you do
Yes, there were some reddish brown stains,
17
so I tested those for blood, but then I also tested
18
for trace, or as I mentioned before, kind of a wear
19
profile to identify whose they were.
20
And then it looks like you did in Q24,
21
that was another flip flop,
22
bracelet?
and in Q25 is the
23
Yes.
24
And did you swab the bracelet?
25
Yes,
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profile.
And Q26 was another bracelet,
Yes.
Okay.
photographs.
70.
I want you to look at these
And this is Grand Jury Exhibit Number
(Deposition Exhibit Number 70
8
9
correct?

Q
(By Ms. Whirley)
I think you looked at
10
those already, but I want you to confirm that you
11
are familiar with those photographs and tell us how?
12
Yes.
Do you want me to hold them up?
13
We are going to put them on --
14
MS. ALIZADEH:
15
MS. WHIRLEY:
16
Yes,
I will assist in that.

Okay, thank you.
I can identify them.
You will see
17
when it gets up there, but on pictures that I take,
18
I write the complaint number, which is just the
19
number assigned by the county for which case it is,
20
and the Q number and my initials and DSN, which is
21
my department serial number, and then the date.
22
23
And so this is on the back, there's a
number of the photograph, what number is that one?
24
26.
25
26.
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Numbers 26 through 44.
is assisting.
MS. ALIZADEH:
MS. WHIRLEY:
MS. ALIZADEH:
10
MS. WHIRLEY:
I'll callout the number.

That's okay.
This is
Grand Jury Exhibit, which is
all going in this evidence is Number 70.
And I am
just identifying the photograph by a number.

MS. ALIZADEH:
11
12
I need my glasses for
Number 26.
Oh,
that.
We will make sure as Kathi
We've done that in the
past.
13
MS. WHIRLEY:
Right, okay.
So that first
14
one, Kathi had put it on, and you have kind of
15
already told us about this one.
16
we looking at now that everybody can see it.
17
But again, what are
That is what, again, because I didn't know
18
exactly what it was at the time, but that was what I
19
called apparent skin, or hardened nasal mucus,
20
outside of the car on the door.
from
21
Okay.
22
You can see it's small, the measurement is
23
24
25
in centimeters.
Q
I see.
And those numbers at the top, that
99 represents what?
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99 represents County.
Their municipal code?
Their municipal codes to, like Ballwin is
like 02.
is considered County, which is 99.
and the 43984 is just the actual number that was
assigned.
9
10
So anything that is not in a municipality
Okay.
14 is the year,
And then that Q11 would correspond
with the report that we have that has Q11; is that

correct?
11
Yes.
12
We look on our report dated, entered on
13
8/11/2014.
Q11 says one small piece of apparent
14
skin or hardened nasal mucus, which you talked about
15
already.
16
And those are your initials?
17
Yes.
18
And that's your DSN?
19
Yes.
20
And then the date that you worked it?
21
Yes.
22
Okay, all right, thanks.
23
24
25
MS. ALIZADEH:
Just to clarify, you said
this measure is centimeters?

A
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Yes.

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MS. ALIZADEH:
How do you know that?
Did
you notate that or do you just know by looking at it
or do you remember it?
Those are our rulers that we use, they're
disposable rulers that are measured, they're
centimeters.
MS. ALIZADEH:
10
Yes.
MS. ALIZADEH:
MS. WHIRLEY:
13
MS. ALIZADEH:
15
Okay.
We're done with that
one.
12
14
The way it is laying
it appears to be about 1 centimeter in length?
11
Okay.
Yeah.
Moving on.
(By Ms. Whirley) And then this is Number
27 and tell us what we are looking at on that one.
16
That is Officer Wilson's shirt.
17
Now,
18
if you can.
19
Sorry.
20
Okay.
21
I want you to speak up a little bit
Officer's Wilson uniform shirt.

And that Q20 would correspond with
Q20 on our report, right, that we looked at?
22
Yes.
23
Okay.
And as you are talking, would you
24
let us know which items,
25
that they all were, which items were forwarded to
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DNA for further analysis?
Number 26 photo was,
We know that first one,
correct?
Yes.
Number 27, was it forwarded to DNA for
5
6
analysis?
A
The shirt, yes.
This is -- I swabbed the
left side of the shirt, the collar, the shirt area,
for trace.
Michael Brown and Officer Wilson.
Again, the alleged contacted between

So I would have
10
just taken a sterile swab, got it wet, swabbed the
11
area, and did that for DNA.
12
That's the actual shirt?
13
That is the shirt.
14
15
This picture is a
little better.
Q
16
Okay.
And this is Number 28.
MS. ALIZADEH:
Can I ask a question?
In
17
the old days you used to take cuttings from fabric
18
items, correct?
19
been before your time.
20
21
22
23
We did.
When I say the old days, might have
You can do either.
MS. ALIZADEH:
In this case you didn't
take cuttings?
A
Right.
You can get, you could cover a
24
larger area surface area.
25
swab to get the most possible DNA with trace cases
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with trace evidence, there is not going to be as
much DNA left behind as if someone is bleeding.

MS. ALIZADEH:
3
4
Okay.
So to try to maximize that rather than
take a cutting of a small area.
know where, you know, where there was contact.

MS. ALIZADEH:
Plus, you don't
Correct.
And in this case,
when you visually examine this shirt, did you see
anything that looked like apparent blood?
10
11
No.
MS. ALIZADEH:
And had you seen something
12
that looked like apparent blood, would you have
13
actually swabbed that spot?
14
15
Yes.
MS. ALIZADEH:
But in this case, because
16
you didn't see anything, you just kind of doing a
17
broad brush on the shirt?
18
19
Yes.
MS. ALIZADEH:
And that's cause you have
20
had information from a case officer that perhaps
21
Michael Brown touched the shirt of the officer on
22
the left side?
23
24
25
Yes.
MS. ALIZADEH:
Okay.
And so when you said
this was forwarded to the DNA section, you forwarded
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the swabs, correct?
Yes.
MS. ALIZADEH:
3
4
The shirts repackaged?
The shirt was, yes,
kept in.
been finished,
control, which is our evidence goes.
completed and sent to property
MS. WHIRLEY:
Would have
Would that be true for all
clothing items, is that you just submit the swabs to
DNA?
10
Yes.
11
(By Ms. Whirley) And repackage?
12
The actual clothing items, they weren't
13
sent to DNA.
14
took or swabbings that I took, that would go to DNA.
15
It would be either cuttings that I
MS. ALIZADEH:
And to be clear on this
16
shirt, you swabbed two areas, the collar area; is
17
that correct?
18
Yes.
19
MS. ALIZADEH:
When you say the collar
20
area because this collar goes all away the around
21
the shirt, was it what area?
22
I just swabbed anything on the left front
23
side.
Nothing around the back.
24
other picture is better.
25
FAX 314-241-6750
MS. ALIZADEH:
So I think in the
This is 28, Sheila already

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identified that as 28.
there's a laser pen right in front of you,
pointer.
about swabbing the collar, where did you swab?
So you can see the shirt,
Can you show the jurors when you talk
So,
I would have swabbed or I did swab
this area right here,
left side of the shirt, all right here.
just the front.
MS. ALIZADEH:
8
A
10
laser
And then the
Including the sleeve?
Including the sleeve, yes.

MS. ALIZADEH:
So when you swabbed that
11
left side, the whole left side of the shirt pretty
12
much, did you just use one swab or did you take
13
several swabs of that area?
14
I think I took two.
Usually something in
15
that area, that big I would have taken two, two
16
swabs.
17
18
19
MS. ALIZADEH:
22
Yes.
MS. ALIZADEH:
And then for the collar,
did you do one or two, do you recall?

A
It was two swabs for the entire area.
23
They weren't separated.
24
MS. ALIZADEH:
25
Both of those were
forwarded to DNA?
20
21
Okay.
So you didn't swab the
collar and the left side separately?
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No.
So I basically, pretend my laser
pointer is two swabs.
here, swabbed here, swabbed here.
MS. ALIZADEH:
(indicating)
Okay.
Altogether.
MS. ALIZADEH:
So I swabbed here, swabbed
So, for example, if swab
has DNA on it that identifies somebody, you are not
going to be able to say whether it was on the collar
or elsewhere on the shirt?
10
11
12
No.
MS. ALIZADEH:
Okay.
That's what I wanted
to know.
13
(By Ms. Whirley) What is your next photo?
14
That is Officer Wilson's pants.
15
This is Number 29.
16
Uh-huh.
And again,
I did a close-up
17
picture to get my information on them and then
18
there's one taken from farther away, which is
19
probably a little more helpful to see the item in
20
its entirety.
21
22
item?
23
24
25
What did you do with this piece of, this
MS. ALIZADEH:
I'm showing Photo 30.
So the left,
I swabbed the left, again,
the left side.
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MS. WHIRLEY:
Yeah,
Can you see it okay?
I can see it.
I swabbed, again,
take two swabs, swabbed this area.
area,
isn't perfect to see the blood stain, but I did not
swab that area because swabbing that area you would
get blood of whoever at the time.
whose it was.
find if there was contact, so swabbed any of the non
10
11
12
13
I think it was in this location.
16
(By Ms. Whirley)
So there was blood stain
Yes.
And you tested that for
I tested that in the swabs that were
submitted.
MS. ALIZADEH:
18
Okay.
So the blood stain
was swabbed by the crime scene?

A
21
22
So for trace, since I'm trying to
MS. ALIZADEH:
blood?
20
I didn't know
on the pants?
15
19
This picture
blood stained areas.
14
17
There was an
Yes.
MS. ALIZADEH:
All right.
(By Ms. Whirley)
This is marked as photo
23
number, these should be sequential, this one is 31.
24
What is that?
25
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Okay.
And that is the back side.
That's the back of the shirt?
The back of the shirt.
Now, you mention swabbing non stained
areas?
For possible trace.
For possible trace.
9
10
Why would you not
swab the blood stain areas for trace?

A
Well, blood is -- contains a lot of DNA.
11
And then also it was Michael Brown's shirt, which
12
would have DNA from him wearing it too.
13
to try to swab bloody areas, it is just unlikely to
14
actually get a trace profile from that because the
15
blood would overwhelm everything.
16
MS. WHIRLEY:
So for me
Did you have a question?
17
I know
18
you may not have known this, but I don't know at the
19
time if Michael Brown was supposedly been in the
20
vehicle, you testing for prints on the shirt when he
21
did that, testing of that?
22
MS. ALIZADEH:
23
24
Fingerprints you mean?

Well, like maybe
holding
25
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MS. WHIRLEY:
Trace DNA?

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Yeah.
2
3
MS. WHIRLEY:
areas for that purpose?
You did swab the non blood
Yes, uh-huh.
In case, if there was,
again, if Officer Wilson grabbed his shirt.

Okay.
6
7
It was hard in this instant.
was blood soaked.
thing for trace DNA.
10
14
This is the back of the
That is the back.

There will be a DNA person
testifying about the DNA at some point.

MS. WHIRLEY:
So that will be Photo Number
32.
MS. ALIZADEH:
18
19
(By Ms. Whirley)
MS. ALIZADEH:
16
17
I took two swabs and just
shirt in Exhibit 31, I think we said?
13
15
So I did, again, do the same
swabbed the non stained areas.
11
12
The shirt
Yes.
(By Ms. Whirley) Were you told or did you
20
have any idea where the officer allegedly grabbed
21
Michael Brown?
22
No.
23
You just swabbed all non blood, well, not
24
all, but I mean, what did you swab, show us what you
25
swabbed.
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32?
Yes.
This is the front of the shirt?
It is the front of the shirt.
Most of the blood appears to go on the
right side of the shirt?
Yes.
Okay.
So I just swabbed, you know, areas that
10
were not blood stained, you know.
11
Okay.
12
Whether or not there was contact at these
13
14
places, I don't know.

Q
15
16
17
It was just
Okay.
MS. ALIZADEH:
You are just looking for an
unbloody place?
A
18
Yes.
MS. ALIZADEH:
When you said, you moved
19
the laser pointer a lot in the area of that shirt,
20
were you using, when you swab, are you holding two
21
swabs at the same time?
22
23
24
25
Yes.
MS. ALIZADEH:
Do you just do one swabbing
of that whole area or did you do different areas?

A
FAX 314-241-6750
Different areas.
So again, they were

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riddled with blood stains.
different areas.
MS. ALIZADEH:
3
4
I just had to do
How many swabs total did
you do?
I think two.
MS. ALIZADEH:
That was my question, the
same two swabs are covering the entire places you're
swabbing?
Yes.
10
11
MS. ALIZADEH:
You are not going underarm
here and the tail of shirt from another spot?
12
No.
And again, for a trace, we are trying
13
to collect as much DNA as possible.
14
it to two swabs, rather than separating it.
15
there was something to collect, would be more likely
16
to collect it with less swabs than large quantity.
17
18
(By Ms. Whirley) Okay.
So by keeping
If
And this one,
which is Number 33, what did that represent?
19
That's actually the first picture that I
20
took,
just to zone in on the Q and my initials and
21
complaint number.
22
That says Q7?
23
Yes.
I usually take a picture close-up so
24
that you can get the information, the date, my
25
initials, my DSN, and then take my picture from
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farther away so you can see the whole item.
2
3
MS. ALIZADEH:
Can I just go back really
quickly.
The apparent skin, or hardened nasal mucus
that you looked at, did you swab that and forward
the swabs to the DNA section, or did you forward the
whole piece you said of whatever it was.
The whole piece did go, but I took a
cutting of it.
What we do with either the swabs in
10
this case, that little piece, I would have sampled a
11
section and put it in a tube and that's what DNA
12
would actually test.
13
section I took approximately 4 millimeters by 3
14
millimeters, and that's what actually the DNA unit
15
would actually test.
16
17
And the remainder of that
The rest of that, the remainder also

went to DNA in case they need to do further testing.
18
Same thing would happen with the
19
swab.
Like those two swabs that I took for trace, I
20
sampled half of each swab, put that in a tube and
21
that's what DNA you would be testing.
22
remainder of those swabs would be put in a container
23
and they would be transported together.
24
make sense?
25
FAX 314-241-6750
MS. ALIZADEH:
And then the
Yes, I think so.

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Does that
So the
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apparent skin or hardened nasal mucus, did you do
any testing on that yourself other than to take a
swab, take the piece out of it?
I tested it for blood, and then I did a
test to confirm blood and determine probable
species.
Hemastix.
confirms that it is blood and it is also presumptive
for human species.
What that means, this test is called

What it does is that if it's positive, it
And the reason why we can't say,
10
oh, it is human blood for sure is that there are
11
some other primates and ferrets blood that will --
12
13
MS. ALIZADEH:
A
Ferrets, yeah.
Ferrets?
I don't know why.
That
14
have reported given positive results.
15
case, the way we report it on my report is that for
16
Qll, that examination discloses presence of blood as
17
probably human organ.
18
19
So in that
For this item as
Q7; is that correct?
20
It's Ql.
21
Ql.
That's what threw me off because I'm
22
looking at the report, still looks like a seven to
23
me, I don't know if anybody else thought that or
24
that's just me.
25
FAX 314-241-6750
But that's actually Ql?
Yeah, I think what maybe you are seeing is

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the bracket that I put after that.
I'm glad you clarified that.
So Ql is
the, because it was not corresponding with the
report, that's why I was a little confused, but now
it does.
This should be 34.
It is the gray T-shirt.
Okay, all right.
And these are?
These are Michael Brown's shorts.
Okay.
10
It's the front,
11
That's the back of the shorts.
no, the back.

Just
12
zooming in and focusing, but these are the back of
13
the shorts.
14
on the back, did you test that?
Do you know what kind of stain that is
15
16
blood.
17
Do you know which stain you confirmed?
18
Urn, the one that I tested was on the lower
19
I tested overall for blood.
I confirmed
I don't confirm each stain.
left leg.
20
Show us with the laser pointer.
21
Urn, it would be on the front in the next
22
photo.
23
So you didn't confirm any blood on the
No.
24
25
back?
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Okay.
MS. WHIRLEY:
Was there a question?
3
4
That is what,
the back of the shorts?
MS. WHIRLEY:
The back of the shorts.

This is 35, this should be
35.
(By Ms. Whirley)
So tell us about that.
That is the front of the shorts, and if
10
you look in this area that I've marked off, this is
11
the area that I actually tested for blood.
12
we don't test every single stain.
13
little plus-plus is just my personal markings for,
14
did a presumptive testing and confirmatory test.
15
16
Again,
And then this
You just arbitrarily decide where on the
pants you are going to test?
17
Yes.
18
Based on amount there?
19
Just usually an area that has a good
20
21
amount.
Q
22
Okay.
MS. ALIZADEH:
If you had information that
23
there was another person who was bleeding at that
24
crime scene, and that maybe there was contact
25
between the wearer of these pants and another
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bleeder, would you have maybe tested more areas of
the pants.
They could have been tested in that
situation.
been taken from different areas to be tested for
DNA.
this was for trace, again, on the nonstained areas.
The only things that was tested for DNA, and
(By Ms. Whirley)
You checked nonstained
areas on these shorts too?
10
11
That is where actual cuttings would have
Yes.
So again, areas that were not
stained did the same thing, two swabs.
12
Did you know if there was anything in the
13
pockets or is that something that you would not deal
14
with?
15
Yes,
16
You checked the pockets.
17
like something,
20
Okay.
It looks
I was just wondering.
MS. ALIZADEH:
18
19
I checked.
Was there anything in the
pockets?
A
21
No.
MS. ALIZADEH:
Would that be the inside of
22
the pockets, you know when you turn a pocket inside
23
out, there's fabric.
24
looks like in that picture?
25
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pockets?
(By Ms. Whirley) But did you check the
Oh, actually,
I think it is the velcro,
there's velcro.
MS. ALIZADEH:
For the pocket?
(By Ms. Whirley) And then here
That's the inside of the pocket.
Okay.
And you checked, there was nothing
in the pockets?
10
Right.
11
Correct, okay.
12
13
MS. ALIZADEH:
here?
16
17
You want this still up
You were done with that.
14
15
So
MS. WHIRLEY:
Q
I think I'm done with that.
(By Ms. Whirley)
So Number 36.
What are
we looking at there?
A
This is, these were kind of backwards.
18
this, again, was the first picture that I took of
19
the shorts just to show the complaint number, my
20
initials, DSN, date.
21
So what is that Q number?
22
Q2.
23
Q2.
24
25
So
What's that other number next to it,
or symbol?
A
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A bracket.

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That's what is throwing
my math, that's Q2?

MS. ALIZADEH:
Just a bracket.
Kind of like a greater than
symbol.
Yes.
MS. ALIZADEH:
Like an arrow kind of
thing.
(By Ms. Whirley) What does it represent?
It doesn't mean anything.
It just is,
10
that's just how I write it.
11
just showing my initials and the date all done at
12
the same time.
13
14
Well, these are Michael Brown's shorts
that I swabbed the non stained areas for trace.
17
18
And what did you do with
this piece of, this item?
15
16
I see, okay.
I do the Q and then
You also swabbed this area,
is that near
the waist band?
19
Yes, so any non stained areas.
20
Okay.
21
22
23
MS. ALIZADEH:
Did you swab the belt as
well?
A
Yes, because that is a good place.
When
24
you are swabbing for trace on clothing, a lot of
25
times pockets, collars, belts, those are areas that
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are easily grabbed.
Number 37.
with,
I think, Q22, correct?

A
Yes.
Okay.
This is Photograph
That's on your other report beginning
So, yes.
And this was submitted another day.
What did you do with this item?

A
I swabbed this hat for wear DNA just
because it wasn't identified on the receipt as
10
belonging to someone in particular.
11
swabbed areas that would touch skin.
12
wearing it on the hat, it is the inner rim of the
13
hat of the bill.
14
15
So I just
If you're
This is number 38, also a photograph of
the Cardinal baseball cab, correct?
16
Yes.
17
You just gave us another view of it I see?
18
Yes.
19
All right.
And then Number 39.
So you
20
also took photographs of the flip flops that you
21
were told he was wearing; is that right?
22
Yes.
23
And that's 39 and 40, which I will show in
24
a moment.
25
there that we're looking at?
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Yes.
MS. WHIRLEY:
We had an interruption for
the alarm sounding.
Number 39, Photograph Number 39 and Number 40, which
we will show in a minute.
the flip flops that you were told Michael Brown was
wearing, correct?
evidentiary value that was lifted from those flip
flops?
10
11
Well,
We are good now.
So we were on
They are both pictures of
Tell us was there anything of
I tested orange brown stain for
possible blood.
12
Is that what we are looking at here?
13
For Q23,
14
I tested reddish brown stain on
the outside left side, so yes.
15
(By Ms. Whirley)
16
And then I also,
Everybody see that stain?

let me see.
I also
17
swabbed the top of the sole area and the under side
18
of the strap, the white strap, for trace for who was
19
wearing.
20
belonged to.
21
22
23
24
25
Again,
Okay.
like the hat,
I didn't know who it
And this is Number 40.
We see a
little speck on 40 too, did you test that also?

A
I did.
I tested, my notes one of four
small reddish brown stains.

Q
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Okay.
And did you confirm it to be blood?

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The quantity was not sufficient so I
didn't confirm it.
flip flop I swabbed,
sole area and then underneath the strap for trace.
you,
And then I also,

I will show you,
And this is 41.
like the other

I swabbed the
This was submitted to
correct?
Yes.
What did you do with this?
Again, there was no one code as to who it
10
belonged to.
To get a wear DNA,
11
entire bracelet for trace DNA.
12
So that's a bracelet?
13
Yes.
14
MS. ALIZADEH:
I just swabbed the
And just to be clear
15
because we have two bracelets, this is the bracelet
16
that is rubber with yellow, white and black
17
coloring?
18
19
I described it as black, yellow and white
rubber rainbow type.
20
(By Ms. Whirley)
21
Type bracelet.
22
23
24
25
I'm sorry, go ahead.

Per the receipt, it was
recovered in front of 2964 Canfield.

Q
It is identified as Q25, which is also in
your report identifying it, correct?

A
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And on this one, which is Number 42,
that's this one is Q26, how do you describe that
one?
5
6
7
I described it as a dark brown beaded
bracelet recovered from the front of 2964 Canfield.

Q
Okay.
Do you know what material that's
made of?
Well, on my notes I put apparent wood.
Wood.
10
I don't know for certain.
11
That is what it felt like, or looked like
12
to you?
13
It looked like wooden beads.
14
Okay.
15
Yes.
16
17
And that was swabbed also?
MS. ALIZADEH:
A
For trace.
MS. ALIZADEH:
18
For trace?
Neither bracelet had any
19
stains that were of apparent blood or anything that
20
you thought might be blood, right?
21
22
They did not have any reddish brown stains
on them.
23
24
Was this considered the

gold bracelet?
25
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MS. WHIRLEY:
Don't know.

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Okay.
2
3
Were these his

bracelets, do we know that?
MS. WHIRLEY:
We'll talk to the DNA person
to see if anything of evidentiary value came from
the swabbing because you really can't talk about
that,
9
10
correct?
A
No,
samples for DNA.
The DNA analyst will be able to
answer those questions.
11
MS. WHIRLEY:
12
on it, yes.
13
14
I just swab and prepared all the
The skin cells or anything
(By Ms. Whirley)
The last two photos are
43 and 44, and they are socks,
correct?
15
Yes.
16
We'll do 43 first.
17
They are from the first report.
18
Okay.
19
And from the first report,
and
that's Q?
20
It is Q3.
21
Q3.
22
So those were Michael Brown's socks.
23
You were told they were his socks,
24
25
correct?
A
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they were his socks.
2
3
Okay.
And you indicate that they had
reddish brown stains throughout,
at least Q3 did?
Right.
You have both of them as Q3, pair of
socks, got it.
I see now.
reddish brown stains, did you swab that for,
it
No,
10
Okay.
11
Yes.
12
I just had to look.
And you confirmed blood?
MS. ALIZADEH:
And this is Photograph 44.
And,
, when you look at that,
14
area right here, did you mark with,
15
marking of the area?

A
17
something?
19
20
is that your
Like with a Sharpie or
With a Sharpie.
That's the area that I
tested.
21
22
in this
Yes.
MS. ALIZADEH:
18
or was
I just tested for blood.
13
16
So
MS. ALIZADEH:
A
23
For blood.
MS. WHIRLEY:
24
Kathi.
25
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For blood?
That's really all I have,
(By Ms. Alizadeh)
So just in summary, can

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you tell me of the items, of the items you tested,
you found apparent blood on the officer's pant leg,
correct?
pant leg?
Did you test that stain on the officer's
I tested the swabs,
I didn't doubly test
it, so I tested the swabs that came from the crime
scene from the pant.

Okay.
And did you determine that was
blood?
10
Yes, they were blood.
11
And you didn't see any apparent blood on
12
the shirt of the officer, correct?
13
Correct.
14
And then, you know, we've talked about the
15
shirt of Michael Brown, the pant and the socks all
16
had apparent blood on them, correct?
17
Or confirmed blood, yes.
18
Or confirmed.
I'm mixing my terms.
19
Apparent is when you're not you sure what it is, but
20
it looks like it?
21
Right.
22
And then on the sandals, you didn't have
23
enough to confirm that it was blood; is that right?
24
Yes.
25
And then what about the swab from the gun,
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there were two swabs submitted from the gun.
you test those swabs?
I tested that for blood.
Did
Yes, the swabs,
they were, they had reddish brown stains and black
stains on the swab.
stain, I tested it for blood.
positive for blood, but the quantity was not
sufficient for confirmatory testing.
didn't want to
Since it had a reddish brown

It was presumptively
Again,
10
Destroy the sample?
11
Yes.
12
Consume the sample?
13
Yes.
14
That was presumptive positive for blood,
15
but you didn't do a confirmatory test and you
16
forwarded that to the DNA section, would that be
17
right?
18
Yes.
19
And then what about the swabs from the
20
interior of the door of the police vehicle, did you
21
test those swabs?
22
I tested, well, there were, there were
23
several.
24
numerous swabs from the car.
25
general, or you want me to go through each one?
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So you're saying that interior, I received

Do you mean in

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Well,
I'm thinking in particular there
were photographs that were taken by
there was reddish brown stain on the driver's side,
on the driver's door, on the inside of the door?
Okay.
that
So what I have is Q12 was a swab
with reddish brown stains from the driver rear
passenger exterior door.
Driver rear?
Rear passenger exterior door,
That's the exterior.
10
11
12
13
14
Ferguson PD
108.
Do you have one for
the interior of that door?

A
Yes.
Swabs with reddish brown stains from
interior left front door handle.
15
Yes?
16
Yes,
17
So that was confirmed blood?
18
Yes.
19
Let's go back.
I confirmed blood on those.
You talked about the swab
20
that you received that was from the exterior rear
21
driver's door.
22
Yes.
23
And I recall we had a photograph that was
24
taken by
that had a reddish brown spatter
25
perhaps,
I don't know what you might call it, but if
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that is the swab that you tested, what did you
determine about that?
4
5
6
7
I determined that it was blood of probable
human origin.
Q
Is that a presumptive test or is that a
confirmatory test?
A
It is confirmatory for blood, but it is
presumptive for the species just because there has
been reporting of some upper primates and ferrets
10
producing the same result.
11
origin for that.
So we say probable human
12
And since it was on the exterior of
13
the car, that's why I wanted to do that to test or
14
give a possible species result just because it was
15
outside the car.
16
So it is conclusive for blood on the
17
outside of the door, conclusive for the blood on the
18
inside of the door, conclusive or presumptive for
19
blood on the gun?
20
Yes.
21
And then conclusive for blood on the swabs
22
that were on the pant leg for the stain on the pant
23
leg, correct?
24
Yes.
25
And then Mike Brown's clothes you have
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already testified about that.
Did you do any blood, did you test
for blood on the apparent skin or hardened nasal
mucus?
to forward to the DNA section, did you test it for
blood?
I know you said you took a sample from that
I did.
I confirmed it for blood and also
for presumptive species for that was positive.

Q
And that was on the outside of the car as
11
Yes.
12
And all of these things that tested
10
well?
13
positive for blood were forwarded to the DNA lab,
14
the DNA section, correct?
15
Not every item, but the probative items I
16
confirmed blood on, such as Michael Brown's
17
clothing, those samples weren't forwarded.
18
through each of the items that I did forward,
19
a sheet.
20
I can go
I have
Well, if I asked you the skin/nasal mucus,
21
that actually a sample got forwarded to the DNA
22
section, correct?
23
Yes.
24
And then what about the reddish, the blood
25
that you determined on the outside of the driver's
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door, did that go to DNA?
Yes.
The blood that you confirmed on the inside
of the driver's door, that went to DNA?
Yes.
And then the blood that was on the,
swabbed from the officer's pant leg?
Yes.
That went to DNA, correct?
10
Yes.
11
And then the, now, you said that you could
12
not do a confirmatory test on what you detected was
13
presumptive positive for blood on the gun swabs, but
14
you forwarded those swabs to the DNA section,
15
correct?
16
Yes.
17
And then you've already testified about
18
the swabs, places you swabbed for trace evidence.
19
On the officer's shirt that was forwarded to the DNA
20
section, correct?
21
Yes.
22
On the officer's pants?
23
Yes.
24
And the pants and shirt of Michael Brown,
25
did you forward those, the trace swabs?
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Yes.
2
3
MS. ALIZADEH:
bases.
Checking my
All right, thanks, nothing else.

MS. WHIRLEY:
All right.
, did you have a
question?
When you
get through swabbing, does it automatically go
directly to the DNA or someone comes behind you, is
there another step between you and the DNA testing?
10
No.
Once I would do any testing that I
11
need to do, then I also sample it and prepare the
12
sample for DNA, and then it will be put into a
13
refrigerator until the DNA analyst takes it.
14
MS. WHIRLEY:
15
16
17
Anyone else, questions?
No?
MS. ALIZADEH:
Thank you.
That concludes
the testimony.
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
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7
8
9
EXAMINATION
BY MS. WHIRLEY:
Q
Good afternoon.
If you could introduce
10
yourself to the grand jurors and spell your name for
11
the court reporter, please?
12
My name is
That's
14
What's your occupation?
15
DNA technical leader with the St. Louis
13
16
County Police Department Crime Laboratory.
17
What do you do generally?
18
Generally, I perform the duties of a DNA
19
analyst.
20
submitted to the lab for DNA testing.
21
technical leader, I have additional
22
responsibilities, primarily to insure that our DNA
23
section maintains compliance with the FBI quality
24
assurance standards that are required for DNA
25
testing laboratories.
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2
Are employed with the St. Louis County
Police Department; is that correct?
That's correct.
And how long have you been employed with
It will be four years in February.
Did you do any other scientific work
8
9
them?
before?
A
Yes, previous to my work with St. Louis
10
County,
11
St. Louis Metropolitan Police Department Crime
12
Laboratory for just over six years.
13
14
I was a biologist and a DNA analyst with the
You have a total of what,
is it ten years
or more?
15
Approximately, yes.
16
What type of work, tell us about your
17
18
education?
A
I have a bachelor's degree in biology, as
19
well as a bachelor's degree in anthropology from the
20
University of Missouri-Columbia.
21
master's degree in biology from Washington
22
University.
23
Okay.
And we also have a copy of your CV
24
that you provided for us.
25
State's Exhibit,
FAX 314-241-6750
And then I have a
We have it marked as
I'm sorry, Grand Jury Exhibit

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Number 72.
(By Ms. Whirley) That kind of outlines all
of your credits and education and training.
don't have to spend a lot of time talking about
that.
Okay.
At least at this stage.
10
Approximately 1,400.
12
Okay.
14
Now,
approximately how many DNA cases have you worked?
11
13
So we
Can you tell us, a case comes to
you, how does it start for you, a case?

A
Sure.
Generally evidence is collected
15
from a scene or from a hospital or from other
16
medical examiner's office, et cetera.
17
is submitted to the laboratory and a biologist or
18
biological screener obtains that evidence from the
19
vault, they process it for whatever bodily fluids or
20
potential DNA may be there.
21
That evidence
They perform their testing and they
22
collect samples from the various areas of the items
23
and then they forward that on to DNA, which is where
24
I come in.
25
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Correct.
You are one of the DNA analyst.
Correct.
How is it determined who is going to get
the case?
It's generally just availability, so
whoever the next available person is will take the
case.
And I want to get a little bit more
10
general information out there, but before I go to
11
ask those questions,
12
that you worked the Michael Brown shooting case; is
13
that correct?
I do want to specifically state
14
Yes.
15
And did you work this one in an
16
expeditious fashion or any different than any other
17
case?
18
19
20
21
It was worked just like any other case,
but it was worked,

Q
Okay.
I guess, as a priority.
Priority is a better way to put it.
Why, do you know why it was made a priority?
22
Due to the sensitive nature of the case.
23
Within the United States, all the
24
information that's coming out, we are trying to get
25
this completed, right?
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Yes.
Or you were trying to get it completed?
Correct.
I think you kind of told us what your
responsibilities at the crime lab are, correct?
there anything else you wanted to add to that?
Not that I can think of.
Okay.
And what is DNA, we are going to
playa little film,
is this a good time do it?
10
Yeah, that would be great.
11
You provided us with a CD.
12
You provided us with a CD on,
I guess
a little animated feature regarding DNA section?
15
Yes.
16
This film,
17
I'm going to
keep talking as I get set up.
13
14
Is
you put it together for us; is
that correct?
18
Yes.
19
To kind of give us a little illustration
20
of what DNA is and how it works.
21
helpful and kind of break up the afternoon.
22
me get it started here.
23
where you are or do you want to stand up?
24
25
So that might be
So let
Can you see all right from
I think I can see all right.
I can stand
up if need be.
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2
3
4
All right.
MS. ALIZADEH:
You might be able to
advance by doing that.

Q
(By Ms. Whirley) Tell us that first slide.
That first slide, DNA processing, talk to us about
it and then indicate to Kathi when she should go to
the next slide.
9
10
Sure.
So if at any point you all have
questions, feel free to interrupt me.
If I start
talking too fast or anything.
11
So this first slide is giving a
12
little bit of background information on what
13
forensic DNA testing is and the type we perform in
14
our laboratory.
15
testing.
16
that's in the nucleus of a cell.
17
18
We do what is called nuclear DNA
That just means that we're looking at DNA
So if you think of an egg, would be

like the egg yoke.
19
That's where the nucleus is.
And more specifically the technology
20
that we use is called short tandem repeat or STR.
21
Basically the thing to take away is that we are not
22
sequencing genomes here, we are not able to
23
determine if there's genetic diseases or any sort of
24
information like that.
25
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the DNA that are, what we call junk DNA.
So they're
just sequences that are scattered throughout the
genome that differ from person to person, but they
don't have any known function, so they are not
genes.
All right.
So here is a little graphic of DNA.
So next slide?
It is
basically a chemical blueprint of your body.
half of our DNA from our mother and half from our
10
father.
11
found in almost all cells in the human body.
12
again, I mention the nucleus.
13
nucleus is going to contain nuclear DNA.
14
We get
It varies from person to person and it is

So
Any cell that has a

Next.
This is just a little slide on what
15
exactly I mean by short tandem repeat.
16
you have a little segment that is usually by four
17
base pairs long that repeats over and over again.
18
And so in forensics, what we do is actually
19
determine how many times that little unit repeats.
20
Essentially,
So you can see here there is an
21
illustration of that.
22
repeats there on the top and eight on the bottom.
23
You can see there is seven
I also mentioned that we get half of
24
our DNA from our mother and half from our father.
25
So for all of your chromosomes you basically have a
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pair of each chromosome, so one from mom and one
from dad.
seven repeats came from mom and the eight repeats
came from dad.
technology is.
So in this illustration, perhaps the
So that's essentially what STR
The way that we're able to actually
obtain the DNA profile is something called
polymerase chain reaction, basically it is just a
fancy word for copying for amplification.
We are
10
able to target specific areas on the DNA and amplify
11
millions of copies of those so that it can be
12
detected by an instrument.
13
sequencing genomes, we are just looking at very
14
specific points on the DNA.
15
So again, we are not
Just another thing that's important
16
to note.
17
sort of just get a profile and they magically know
18
who it is, but in reality it is just like
19
fingerprints where you have to have reference DNA
20
from an individual to obtain what their profile is
21
to compare it to the case.
22
23
Q
reference,
I know on CSI and shows like that they
(By Ms. Whirley)
So when you say
you are talking about some known sample?
24
Yes.
25
So if you take my blood or my buccal swab
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and you are comparing it, I'm the reference sample?
That's correct.
Not just some unknown entity out there?
Right.
And then when you talked about the
copying.
Yes.
Is that what allows you to get a DNA
sample from something as minute as a little blood
10
stain?
11
That's correct, yes.
With older
12
technologies like RFLP that's mentioned on the
13
slide, you needed a blood stain about the size of a
14
quarter.
15
profile from a tiny speck of blood or even
16
potentially skin cells left behind from someone
17
grasping an object.
18
Whereas now with peR you can get DNA
So sometimes when the police aren't able
19
to get a fingerprint sample, they may, latent print,
20
you may be able to find with DNA?
21
Sure.
22
Or DNA sample or profile, rather, of
23
someone?
24
Yes.
25
Okay.
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And it is also important to note at all
stages we have controls that are run along with the
samples, both positive and negative controls,
to make sure that all the reagents are free of
contamination and that the analyst isn't introducing
any contamination.
That raises another question.
just
What do you
do to make sure your own DNA isn't getting into
sloughing or flaking off into things that you are
10
11
testing?
A
Yes, there is couple things that we do.
12
We wear protective equipment, so lab coats, masks,
13
gloves, we change gloves in between samples, we use
14
all of the consumables, et cetera, are one-time use.
15
We don't reuse any of the plastics.
16
The second thing is we actually have
17
all of our DNA profiles in a local database.
18
every sample that we run, we crosscheck it against
19
all of the individuals in the laboratory to insure
20
that we are not being detected in the sample.
21
MS. ALIZADEH:
I have a question.
So
Talking
22
about the copying or amplification,
23
cases I've had where the report will say that there
24
wasn't a sufficient amount of DNA to obtain a
25
profile.
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l o v e r and over again until you can get a big enough
2
3
thing to test?
A
Yes.
So when you see that sometimes in
our record, we do actually amplify all samples, even
if the, well,
called quantitation, where we estimate how much DNA
is there.
if there is no DNA indicated in the samples.
ahead and carry it through and amplify everything.
I guess there's a step before it
Some labs stop at the quantitation step,

We go
10
So when that sentence appears in the
11
report, it just indicates that basically the result
12
that we got, there was just not information there to
13
do a comparison.
14
to get a result.
15
16
17
We weren't able to amplify enough
MS. ALIZADEH:
Is it possible that you
wouldn't have any DNA in that sample?

A
It is possible, yes.
MS. ALIZADEH:
18
So when you say you amplify
19
it, it undergoes a process whether you know there's
20
DNA there or not?
21
22
We go ahead and amplify all the
samples.
23
24
Correct.
MS. ALIZADEH:
A
25
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Yes.
Okay.
I think that's all for this slide.

And so this is sort of a little bit

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technical here.
This just goes through the various
steps.
with an alternate light source.
used to look for semen or potentially saliva stains.
We don't usually use this to look for blood.
probably see that on CSI though.
You can see the first step shows a biologist
Typically that's
You
So after the biologist prepares
everything, the next step in DNA is called
extraction.
Basically all that's doing is purifying
10
the DNA.
11
debris that we're not interested in.
12
extraction part gives us a clean DNA sample.
13
The cells have a lot of proteins and other

So the
Quantitation is the next step.
14
just mentioned that a minute ago.
15
trying to estimate how much DNA is there.
16
important because we have a target range that we're
17
trying to get to.
18
we want to get to.
19
Again, we are
This is
We have a target number of copies
If we have, for example, a blood
20
stain that has a lot of DNA in it, we might,
21
basically, we need to use less of that to get to
22
that target amount.
23
steering wheel where maybe there is just skin cells,
24
we probably need to amp a little bit more of that.
25
So that step just lets us know how much to load into
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l o u r amplification.
2
3
(By Ms. Whirley) What is this target, did
you say target number?
Yes.
Where does that come from?
Typically it is based on validation
studies.
There is something called developmental
validation and then there's also internal
validation.
So internal validation is what I'm
10
responsible for,
any time we're bringing in new
11
technology online.
12
that process.
That number is determined during
13
14
determined,
15
should be is I guess what I'm trying to figure out?
16
Is this part of the accreditation that you

I mean, who determines what the number
In our case, it would be me,
since I'm the
17
one performing the validation.
So I look at data
18
that's available in the community from the
19
developmental validation, which is typically done by
20
the manufacturer.
21
to make sure that it works in our hands just like it
22
does in the manufacturer's laboratory.
And then we do additional testing
23
Okay.
24
So you can see pictures of the instruments
25
there.
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cycler.
And that's what does the copying.
Basically it is just a heat clock, it heats and
cools the sample for certain amount of time and
certain temperatures.
copied.
And it allows the DNA to be
And then the last step, the green,
that's called the CE, capillary electrophoresis.
Basically it's just a fancy term for the instrument
that actually gives us the DNA profile.
10
So it's
able to separate out those copy fragments by size.
11
And then also during the copying step
12
there were fluorescent tags that were added.
13
that's what the instrument is actually seeing are
14
those fluorescent tags.
15
DNA profile tag.
16
So
So it is able to give us a
This is what a profile actually looks
17
like.
You can see there is green boxes above the
18
peaks.
19
location on the DNA that we're looking at.
20
too small to read, but let's say D3, for example,
21
that just means it is on the third chromosome.
22
Basically that is just the name of the

It is
The other thing to note here, there
23
is either one or two peaks under each of those
24
spots.
25
mentioning earlier about you getting half of your
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DNA from your mother and half from your father.
So that is how we are able to do
paternity testing as well.
standards from the parents and the children, you can
look location by location to see if those parents
contributed the DNA to the child.
8
9
If you have reference
At the bottom it says every person has a
unique DNA profile except for identical twins?

A
That's correct, yes.
Everyone on earth
10
has unique forensic DNA profile except for identical
11
twins.
12
Okay.
13
And then the numbers under each peak,
14
that's just how many times it's repeating.
Some of
15
them say 15, 16, that's what we call the genome
16
type, that set of numbers, and that is what we
17
compare to the reference standards.

This is just a slide on touch DNA.
18
19
mentioned it briefly earlier.
20
called trace DNA.
21
are trying to obtain DNA left behind by contact with
22
an object.
23
Touch DNA is also
Essentially, that's just when we
So a steering wheel swab, for
24
example, the handle of a knife, let's stay that was
25
used in an assault, swab of sunglasses, earrings,
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there is all sorts of things that we can attempt to
get touch DNA on.
There is a lot of factors that go
into whether or not we can actually get a profile
from that.
actually made can be a determining factor.
biology of the individual.
of DNA, some people don't, and there is no way to
predict that.
10
The length of time that the contact was

The
Some people shed a lot
If the individual is sweating and
11
really worked up, then they are more likely to leave
12
larger amounts of DNA behind.
13
of the item that's being contacted, so typically it
14
is kind of like the opposite of a fingerprint.
15
might be a smooth surface, it might be great for
16
fingerprints, but not as good for DNA.
17
really just a twofold thing.
And also the surface
This
And that's
18
Essentially, when you have something
19
like fabric, there is more friction that's going to
20
be pulling cells off.
21
places for the cells to kind of cling to and
22
maintain and stay in there.
23
And then there's also more
With the touch DNA, someone's DNA profile
24
may be on an item, but can you say whether it is
25
saliva, skin cells, I mean, can you speak exactly to
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what that bodily item is or not?
No.
Forensic DNA profile is going to be
the same throughout your body.
blood or semen or skin cells, the DNA profile that I
showed you a minute ago is going to look exactly the
same.
So whether it's from
So screening test can kind of,
guess, illustrate, or maybe point to a probable
source of the DNA, but the DNA profile itself will
10
not indicate that.
11
You can say this is the profile?
12
Yes.
13
But you can't say what the actual bodily
14
fluid was?
15
Correct.
16
Okay.
17
We'll have to kind of press through these.
18
These are just like pictures for us?
19
These are just some limitations, we just
20
talked about one, but DNA, again, that profile is
21
not going to tell us when it was deposited.
22
next one.
23
24
25
MS. ALIZADEH:
Let me back up,
The
I have a
question.
A
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MS. ALIZADEH:
And it probably is not
particularly relevant in this case.
degrades, so like you said, you can't tell when it
was deposited, you know, we see on TV where they
will dig up, exhume a body that's been buried for
100 years they will do DNA on it.
to tell if the DNA is recent or fresh DNA, as
opposed to something that's been degrading over
time?
10
The DNA
Is there any way
Well, there's certain things in the
11
profile where you can tell if the sample has been
12
degraded, but there is nothing to indicate
13
specifically how long something has been degrading
14
for or how long it has been in the ground or
15
anything to that effect.
16
Domestic incidents.
So let's say,
17
for example, husband and wife living together, wife
18
stabs husband with a steak knife.
19
her DNA on the handle, that's great, but since she
20
lives in the house and handles the knife all the
21
time, maybe she just ate a steak the hour before.
22
So DNA is less useful in situations like that.
23
Intent.
Let's say we find
So this typically has to do
24
with sexual assault cases.
25
not going to tell us whether the sex was consensual
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or whether it was a rape.
profile or we don't, that's all.
We just talked about this a little
bit.
is from definitively.
We can't determine what fluid the DNA profile
MS. ALIZADEH:
7
8
12
You use the word fluid,
you
can get DNA from skin cells, correct?

A
Correct.
And then as we mentioned
earlier, identical twins will have the same profile.
10
11
We simply obtain a
MS. ALIZADEH:
What are those little
things in the middle there?

A
Those are angry sperm.
That has to do
13
with the consensual sex or not.
14
would be great if they looked like that under the
15
microscope, but they don't.
16
I always say it
And then as Kathi just touched on,
17
DNA can be degraded by environmental conditions,
18
chemicals, like bleach.
19
So in this case there was some DNA
20
mixture obtained.
21
what that is exactly.
22
forward.
23
I just wanted to touch briefly on

You can go ahead and hit the
Mixture is just where we have DNA
24
from more than one individual on an item.
25
we have so many people on an item that we are not
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able to discern any particular profile and we're not
able to make any useful comparisons or inclusions.
And then other times we have cases
where maybe there's a large amount of DNA from one
contributor, but the other people on the sample are
not contributing very much.
get a great result for the person who is donating a
lot of DNA, but the minor contributors, as we call
it, might be inconclusive because there is not
10
11
So we might be able to
enough there.
Q
(By Ms. Whirley)
If the minor person or
12
the minor profile is too little to tell,
13
it is not a full profile, do you include or make any
14
determinations whether or not that person can be
15
included or excluded?
16
So it depends on, well,
you know,
let me back up.
17
The first thing that we do is when we get the DNA
18
profile back, we actually perform our interpretation
19
prior to looking at any reference standards.
20
go location by location and look to see is the
21
profile complete enough to be a comparison.
22
so, what locations do we feel fully represent the
23
DNA samples,
24
25
So we
And if
so which location are conclusive.

So after marking all of that out and
making all of our interpretations, then we go and do
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the comparison.
So if we ran into a situation where
a, let's say there's a minor contributor, but there
is just not a lot of DNA from them, but the peaks
that are there perhaps are consistent with a
reference standard that we are looking at.
if the data is not of sufficient quality, then we
would say it is inconclusive and we can't determine
if they're there or not.
10
Again,
If those peaks simply don't match
11
that person, then we would do what's called an
12
exclusion, and we would indicate that they're
13
excluded from that sample.
14
You know
15
when we are born and take our footprints and
16
fingerprints, do you ever have to go like back to
17
the hospital and look up birth records or anything
18
like that sometimes to determine?
19
20
No, we actually don't have access to that
kind of materials.
21
MS. ALIZADEH:
I have a question.
22
of course, testified before you about areas of a
23
shirt that she swabbed and chose not to swab for
24
trace DNA.
25
on a shirt and that she didn't swab those areas for
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trace DNA.
from the blood would overwhelm the trace.
you explain what that means?
She said something about the DNA section

So can
Yes, so that exactly what we're talking
about we are talking about here.
amount of DNA from one person, essentially, that's
going to do what we call preferential amplification.
It just means that's going to be copied much more
than the person that left the tiny bit of DNA.
10
If here's a huge
So if there is not enough there, it
11
is not going to amplify up, so we might not be able
12
to make a conclusive determination about that
13
person.
14
So I know we all have post-lunch food
15
coma, but it is getting a little technical here, but
16
this is just an illustration or what it actually
17
looks like when we say major contributor.

So you can see there is numbers, 10,
18
19
11, 13, 16, 17, et cetera, you can see how some of
20
those peaks are very distinctly higher above the
21
rest of the peaks.
22
about when we say major contributor.
23
the 16 in the first location, the 11, 13, 17, those
24
would be what we call minor contributor.
25
FAX 314-241-6750
So that's what we are talking
MS. ALIZADEH:
So the 10 and
And you mean those little

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tiny peaks.
Yeah, those little tiny down at the
bottom, correct.
separation is about four to one, that's where we
would determine there is a major contributor.
when those peaks are four times higher than the
people down in the graph.
8
9
So, again, typically our
So
And then we can also have a major

mixture where there is two people that are
10
contributing a lot of DNA and then there might be
11
just a couple tiny trace peaks from another
12
individual.
13
So everywhere you see the red M in
14
those boxes, that's what is being called the major
15
mixture.
16
contributed by those two individuals.
So the majority of the DNA is being
17
So we can sort of treat that like a
18
separate mixture from the stuff that's down in the
19
graph.
20
MS. ALIZADEH:
And I recall from your
21
report, which I know we haven't passed out yet,
22
there is places where you talk about a mixture of at
23
least two people or a mixture of, so is it possible
24
then when you say that it could be a mixture of more
25
than two people?
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2
3
4
MS. ALIZADEH:
You're not able to say it
is six people?
A
Correct.
MS. ALIZADEH:
5
6
Correct.
Okay.
Yes, in that scenario the report wording
will say, there was a major mixture component of two
individuals detected and then it will sayan
additional allele indicated a possible trace
10
11
contributor or something to that effect.

Q
(By Ms. Whirley)
So when it says that,
12
that means that there is another profile there, but
13
you just don't have enough?
14
Correct.
From the trace individual, yes.
15
Okay.
16
When we do our comparison and we find a
17
probative match, probative just means something
18
that's important to the context of the case.
19
can perhaps disprove or prove key statements, et
20
cetera.
21
So it
We do a statistical measure of that
22
to give weight to that evidence or to that match so
23
the jury can determine is this a really good match,
24
a really strong match or is it just so-so.
25
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were used in this case.
RMP, random match probability.
that's saying is it's looking at a single source
profile, so from one individual, and it is saying
how rare is that profile.
to encounter it in the general unrelated population.
The first is called the

Essentially, what
How often would we expect
If that profile reaches a certain
threshold of rarity, we are able to conclude that
the profile came from an individual that's listed in
10
the case if they match.
So we can say this profile
11
is unique and it matches this particular individual.
12
The second statistic is used for
13
mixtures, so you just need a slightly different
14
model when you are dealing with a mixture versus a
15
single source sample.
16
that was used is called a likelihood ratio.
17
So the particular statistic
Again, this is used when you can
18
determine the number of contributors.
19
said a major mixture of two individuals.
20
be a case where you could use the likelihood ratio.
21
You can go ahead and forward it.
22
bit more information on that in a minute.
23
So earlier I
That would
I'll get a little
This is just a slide, again, on
24
random match probability.
25
we are able to determine how rare a profile is in
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the population, we do what are called population
studies.
So, essentially, a sample is taken
from the population of the United States in our
case, and they look to see how often are certain
genome types detected, how often are certain alleles
detected.
8
9
So think of it as a parking lot where

you are looking to see how rare or common a certain
10
car is.
11
driveway,
12
probably not enough, not a large enough sample size
13
to say, okay, this is a rare car or not.
14
two, but if you compare that to,
15
parking lot at Busch Stadium, where you have
16
hundreds of thousands of cars, you can probably
17
determine, okay,
18
cetera.
19
So if you have a parking lot,
it is your
you have only two cars in there,
it is
It is only
let's say, a
I see 50 Toyota Camrys and et
So you can determine approximately
20
how rare or common a particular allele is.
21
that's what the statistics are based on are these
22
population data basis.
23
So
The more locations that we use, the
24
more discrimination the profile is, that is the
25
better able we are to differentiate one profile from
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another.
So this is just a little bit more
information.
it reaches a certain threshold of rarity, then we
can conclude that there was a common source.
evidence stain matches the suspect, for example.
This is what I was saying about when
So the
Very often you will see in the media
where you read newspaper accounts of trials and
things, they will very often say that the, they will
10
quote the statistic as being the chance someone else
11
committed the crime.
12
policy, there is actually a name for it because it
13
happens a lot, but that's not what we are looking at
14
here.
No offense.
15
good.
Again, we are just looking at the rarity of
16
profile.
17
the case or, you know, anything to do with innocence
18
or guilt.
19
That's called the prosecutors'
They don't do that, they're
It has nothing to do with the context of
And there's also a defense attorney
20
fallacy, and that assumption is everybody else with
21
the same profile has an equal chance committing the
22
crime.
23
access to the scene or any of those factors.
24
25
DNA statistics have nothing to do with
Go ahead.
We pointed this out
earlier, but DNA testing and testimony will not
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indicate how a stain was deposited.
just looking to inform the jury as to the likelihood
that the DNA from a crime scene sample matches that
of a particular individual.
Again, we're
This is a little bit on the
likelihood ratio, that's the stat we used when we
have mixture.
way of saying how much particular hypothesis
explains the evidence.
10
Basically it is just a mathematical
So let's say in a rape case, for
11
example, one hypothesis might be that victim and
12
suspect explain the mixture.
13
say, well,
14
vaginal swab, let's say, but that's not my guy.
15
is some random guy.
And the defense might
I agree the victim is there,
16
it is a
It
So the defense hypothesis would be
17
the mixture is explained by the victim and some
18
unknown guy.
19
statistic that just weighs those two options and
20
determines which one is more likely.
21
So, essentially, we perform a
And this is just a verbal equivalent
22
of what that number means.
23
likelihood ratio of one to ten,
24
support for that hypothesis.
25
support, on and on.
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it is limited
10 to 100 is moderate
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strong evidence is to support that hypothesis.
This is just a real quick summary of
what we do.
Obviously, we interpret the profiles
first,
standards.
give statistical weight.
then we submit it to technical administrative
review.
then we compare it to any reference

If there's a probative inclusion, we
We complete the report and
So there's a second qualified analyst
10
that's required to review everything in the report.
11
All the processing documentation,
12
that they agree with the assumptions and everything
13
that was done.
14
MS. ALIZADEH:
just to make sure
I have a question about
15
that because
testified about there being a
16
technical review.
Does the reviewer run the same
17
test as you to see if they are getting the same
18
result, or they just looking at your work to see
19
that it was done correctly?
20
21
was done correctly.
22
23
They look at my work to make sure that it
MS. ALIZADEH:
A
Okay.
I don't know, we can leave this up while
24
we're talking.
25
evidence that I tested from the first report and
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then the next slide is the second report.
know if you can even read that, but it is a summary.
MS. ALIZADEH:
MS. WHIRLEY:

MS. WHIRLEY:
K2,
I think bottom
Okay.
MS. WHIRLEY:
Grand Jury Exhibit Number
74, that's a supplemental report to the first one.
13
14
15
That's Ql,
I will have you explain what those symbols mean.
11
12
That report is Grand Jury
10
I can pass out --
Exhibit Number, the first one is Number 73.
I don't
(By Ms. Whirley)
So basically you get the
16
items, for example, the person that was here earlier
17
who did the screening for DNA, she didn't do any
18
analysis, she just checked the swabs, did a report,
19
forwarded it to your DNA section?
20
Yes.
21
And then what do you do?
22
Urn, so I go through the process that we
23
outlined earlier where I process the sample, I
24
obtain a DNA profile, I perform my interpretations
25
and then I perform my comparisons.
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Okay.
So we're passing out the reports
that you prepared, these are reports that you
prepared, correct?
Yes.
And tell us what the Ql and the Kl and 2,
what does that mean?
Sure.
That's the item designation that's
given in the laboratory.
So that would be what
designated it as.
10
If you look on the first page of my
11
report, there's in parentheses after each item, it
12
says Item Number, for example, Ql-l.
13
says Item Number 3 and that's referencing crime
14
scene designation.
15
Okay.
And on her report,
At the end it
I don't have it
16
in front of me, let me look and see.
17
does,
18
it says Ql specimen, now yours says us Ql-l.
19
us about that, what's the difference?
20
I have it, thank you though.
Yes.
Like when she

Her report where
Tell
So any time an item is separated or
21
a sample is taken from an item, it gets a new item
22
number to distinguish it.
23
T-shirt and then Ql-l just means that she took a
24
sample from that item.
25
FAX 314-241-6750
Okay.
So Ql would have been the
And what is the Kl and K2?

314-241-6750
www.goreperry.com

November 4,2014
Page 171
1
The reference standards are given K
designations for known.
So in this case PO Wilson
is Kl and Michael Brown K2.
You actually have their DNA sample?
Yes.
Buccal swab for the officer and blood for
Michael Brown?
Correct.
All right.
And as I mentioned with the
10
lab biology person was here.
On your report it also
11
has victim suspect.
12
made a determination of; is that correct?
That's not anything that you
13
That's correct.
14
How does that get that designation?
15
We process it as it was submitted by the
16
17
18
investigating agency.
Q
So it comes to you from the police victim
suspect?
19
20
(Nods head.)
All right.
Looking through items examined
21
is on the Elmo, in addition to what we are looking
22
at, they are the same thing,
23
Yes.
24
Okay.
25
correct?
What items did you do analysis on
that were of an evidentiary value?
FAX 314-241-6750

314-241-6750
And when I
say
www.goreperry.com

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Darren Wilson Transcript15

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State of Missouri v.

that was immediately before the August 9th entry?

Before August 9th?

And before that?

It goes the 6th, 5th,

believe it started on the 1st.

Do you make an entry every day in your

This is to help you remember things?

Wouldn't you agree with me, though, that

most of your other entries don't really have much to

do with what happened that day, but maybe just like

I had a headache today?

That's what, pretty much.

I'm not going to read them,

and 5:00 p.m. and midnight about going to a meeting,

about having a headache?

I went to the casino with my mom.

with the girls?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

So can you read for the grand

jurors then your entry, well, let me ask you this,

what's the next entry after August 9th, is it

So can you read starting with,

you know, August 9th, Saturday, 8:00 a.m. and read

for the grand jurors what you wrote in your journal?

For August 9th?

I will provide copies of

this for everybody.

I didn't have enough time to

make copies for everybody right now.

The 4:00 p.m. entry or the entire day?

(By Ms. Alizadeh) Entire day?

8:00 a.m., August 9th, Saturday, 8:00 a.m.

Well, I'm going to do my random drive up to

Florissant, need to understand the black race better

so I stop calling blacks --

Niggers, is that what you wrote?

And start calling them people.

always said you can't bear or hate an entire race

because of what one man did 40 years ago.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

And then you have an entry at

What did you write then?

Is that, oh, my fucking God?

We're all adults here.

Is that the next entry for the

I think we've all

heard the words.

It was crazy, I don't even know where I

I did ask a QT guy for directions, but went

the wrong way.

ended up in some apartment complex.

directions again, real nice kid in a wife beater, or

green shirt and jeans, that guy was really sweet.

Then I heard a weird noise, caught my attention.

was this cop backing up saying something to these

I just wanted to take a drive and

He asked the guy in

I couldn't hear, but they was the

same kids I almost hit with my car, a big one and

opening the door again.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video