You are on page 1of 250

State of Missouri v.

Darren Wilson
Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 27
1

he pulled his car back.

And I was on the phone

talking to the captain as I was running down the

street to finish peeing in the toilet.

What captain, who did you call?

I can't remember the captain's name I

called, but I called and said I want to speak to the

captain, lieutenant, or a sergeant.


Was this with the Ferguson Police

Department?

10

Yes, this was Ferguson Police Department.

11

Did you speak with one of them, with the

12
13

captain?
A

Yes, that's what he said who he was.

14

can't say that's who he was because I'm on the

15

phone.

16

Okay.

17

And he say, well, did the officer do any

18

bodily harm to you or nothing.

19

me feel smaller than what I would be because I had

20

peed on myself.

21

after I peed on myself.

22

I said he just made

He say, did he let you go?

You know,

Yeah,

I don't think that's right.


I say I don't steal,

23

don't beat up nobody,

24

I'm just running down the street.

25

south side city or south side county, west side and

FAX 314-241-6750

I do nothing like crazy stuff.


I can go on the

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 28
1

run anywhere I want to run and not be stopped by an

officer at all.

and not be stopped by an officer at all.

5
6

7
8

I can run anywhere I want to run

Did he get out of the car when he stopped

No, he stayed in his vehicle, he didn't

you?

get out.
Q

Did you see him ever again before the

shooting occurred?

10

I saw him in Jennings.

11

Okay.

12
13
14
15

And that was before the shooting

occurred?
A

Yeah, that was before the shooting

occurred.
Q

When you saw him in Jennings, was this

16

before or after the incident where you peed on

17

yourself?

18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

It was before I saw him in Jennings.

saw him in Jennings twice.


Q

What was going on when you saw him in

Jennings twice?
A

I can't remember,

I seen him at Jennings.

I stay at Jennings sometimes.


Q

Did you have conversation with him those

two times?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 29
1

Hi and bye, that's it.

Because he would

speak to me and I say hi, he'll say hi and I'll say

hi, officer.

So you knew him when you saw him and he

knew you when he saw you?

We didn't have no like personal thing,

when I saw you, I say hi, you know, it is just me.

I just speak.

Okay.

So after this happened, after you

10

peed on yourself, did you have occasion to see him

11

after?

12

13

Uh, no, I didn't see him no more until

that incident.

14

Until that incident?

15

And I wasn't for sure that was him or not

16

cause I saw like the side of him, so and then when

17

they showed a picture of him, I say I know him.

18

So as you sit here today, you know that

19

the Darren Wilson that they've shown that did the

20

shooting is the one that stopped you when you were

21

running trying to get home?

22

Right.

23

Now, when you talked with the FBI,

24

according to my notes it was maybe August 26th of

25

2014.

FAX 314-241-6750

I think you first talked to them on the phone


Gore Perry Reporting and Video
314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 30
1

August the 13th, a few days after this happened.

Then they actually had an interview with you

August 26th, do you remember that?

Yes,

I called them.

They left a card on

my door.

Okay.

So I called them,

don't do court.

you.

I told them,

I said I

I help you in any way I can help

But I'm not trying to get involved, but this

10

is what I can tell you what I saw and said y'all can

11

take it from there.

12

They actually came to your apartment; is

13

that right?

14

Did they come to your apartment?

They came knocking, but I wasn't there,

15

that's when they left their card the first time.

16

And then,

17

remember that name,

I can't remember his name,

I should

I can't remember.

18

That's okay.

19

He just kept on calling, kept on calling

20

me.

21

power of attorney, he figured I should not talk to

22

him because you upset my momma,

23

to you either.

24
25

And then my son told me that by him being my

I don't want to talk

Where did they have the interview with you

at?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 31
1

In my home, in my kitchen.

I went behind

my son's wishes and behind his back and I let him in

anyway.

Why does your son have power of attorney?

He have power of attorney because I had

cancer in my back.

Thank God that it ain't there no

more.

take care of my business at the time, so I had to

stay with my son for like almost two years.

And I was having blackouts and I couldn't

Q
A

13
14
15
16
17
18
19

No, sir, cause I never took it away back

from him.
Q

Okay.

Do you need him now to have power

of attorney?
A

No,

I do not.

I just went through that

stuff right now.


Q

When you talked to the police that day, do

20

you recall stopping the recording when they were

21

recording your statement?

22

Yes,

I did.

The one that is tall, clean

23

cut, started irritating me, called me a liar, it

24

just irritated me so bad, that I really wanted to

25

choke him.

FAX 314-241-6750

I ain't going to lie and say I didn't,

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 32
1

wanted to choke him.

Okay.

I told him, after I cut it off,

done,

They need to leave my home.

my home.

I said I'm

I said what I had to say and I cut it off.


They refused to leave

Okay.

And then the one with the black hair told

And did you --

me, he say just calm down.

10

leave my home.

11

come in.

12

said,

He told the other two to

And that's when they brung a female

Before she came in, he cut it back on.


, I want to ask a few more,

He

I said okay.

13

So you did let them record some more?

14

Right.

I told them I say, that they said

15

that since I'm lying that what I said at first must

16

have been a lie.

17

the truth,

18
19
20

Right now I'm going to tell you

is what I put on the recording.


So you admitted on the recording that you

lied initially?
A

Right, although I wasn't, but that's what

21

they wanted to hear, so I just gave them what they

22

wanted to hear.

23

Okay.

24

Then I told them,

25

to tell you the truth.

FAX 314-241-6750

I said, okay,

I'm going

And that's when I told them

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 33
1

about the part that I saw him on his knees, the

police shot him in his head, his arms was up and

then he fell.

I just made it clean cut and short.

I'm not trying to give the beginning of the details

to the end, they weren't trying to hear that.

need to get out of my house because I don't need to

hear this.

even know me to tell me I'm lying.

10

You

You can't tell me I'm lying, you don't


I don't have any

reason to lie to you or nobody else.

11

They just start to irritate me so bad

12

that then,

13

get me a spoon so I could get me some Jello to eat

14

so I can take a pill with my Jello.

15
16

I went to go from my kitchen drawer to

And he thought I was going for a


knife.

I say no,

I'm not suicidal.

17

Why would you --

18

That's because I'm with BJC Behavior

19

Health.

20

pills.

21

22
23

I don't use weapons on myself,

I take

You mean you tried to commit suicide

before?
A

Yes, like what I'm going through now, all

24

of these questions about death and stuff, that

25

brings back other stuff that I'm trying not to

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 34
1

remember.

I understand.

Cause I have a dream about this stuff,

I'm

seeing it now when I talk to you now and I'm not

liking what I'm seeing.

myself where I can help y'all out of what y'all need

to know.

9
10
11

And I'm trying to hold

We don't want you to help us,

just tell us

what happened?
A

What I mean by helping you is telling the

truth, that's helping you all telling the truth.

12

Right, that's all we want.

13

That's what I'm doing, that's why I say

14

I'm trying to keep myself,

15

I was in my apartment.

16

17
18
19
20
21
22

Pardon me?

Anything else?
MS. ALIZADEH:

You know what,

I have some

clarifying questions.

23

24

25

Kathi?

Anything else?
MS. ALIZADEH:

I'm feeling like

Okay, all right.


MS. WHIRLEY:

oh Lord,

Okay, clarify.
(By Ms. Alizadeh) And

I'm not

saying, these questions are not intended to

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 35
1

embarrass you in any way, okay.

that you take pills?

But you mentioned

Yes.

Is it for a mental health condition?

Yes.

Do you know what your diagnosis is?

They say I have mood swings, three

8
9

10

personalities.
Q

How long have you been taking medications,

do you remember how old you were when you started?

11

I can't remember.

12

Okay.

13

It has been a long time.

14

And I know you stated you take blood

15

pressure medication and --

16

That's morning.

17

And allergy medication?

18

Yeah.

19

Those things are not for your mental

20

health?

21

No, they are just for my morning stuff.

22

Okay.

23
24
25

Do you know what the name of your

medication is that you take for your mental health?


A

I started with the

for the mood

swings to suppress stuff.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 36
1
2

I don't know,
day,

I take 14 medicines a

can't remember them all.


Okay.

Would you say are you good about

taking your medication every day or do you sometimes

go off of it because you don't like what it makes

you feel like?

take them every other day,

sometimes,

don't know if I

nurse come every Monday and do my medicine for the

took it or not.

See,

have the

10

week.

And I was without a nurse for like eight

11

weeks,

so I

12

my psych meds because I didn't know which one I was

13

supposed to take.

took morning meds, but I

couldn't take

14

Do you live by yourself?

15

Yes,

16

So somebody comes in once a week to make

17

do.

sure you are okay, make sure your medications?

18

I have a worker come five days a week.

19

Okay.

20

She makes sure I take my meds.

21

Okay.

22

And my nurse,

she make sure that my meds

23

have been taken, my doctor comes and see me once a

24

month.

25

FAX 314-241-6750

When you take your meds as you are

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 37
1

supposed to, how does that make you feel?


A

Some will make me feel good where I don't

feel like I'm a threat to myself or nobody else.

can take criticism, when I take certain meds.

Certain meds if I don't take them,

nobody hollering at me period.

makes me want to hurt them.

I can't take

Just makes me angry,

Okay.

But if I take them,

10

So they make you feel calmer?

11

Yeah, and they make me feel normal.

12

If you are not taking your meds like

13

you're supposed to,

I'm like normal.

it makes you more agitated?

14

Yes.

15

Do you ever get paranoid?

16

No.

17

What about it, it might make you angry

18

with people?

19

Yeah.

20

When you don't take your meds, and again,

21

I'm not asking you this to embarrass you or

22

anything?

23

No,

24

Are you able to

25

Function right?

FAX 314-241-6750

just go ahead.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 38
1

Perceive things or do you ever have

trouble, you know, like perceiving what's really

going on around you?

Yes,

I do.

Okay.

If I see anything that isn't there it

ain't like, it is something like,

glasses here.

thinking ain't there, no,

10
11

I know, these

It won't be like the glasses I'm

Okay.

I'm never like that.

Do you know if on August 9th you

have been taking your medication regularly?

12

Yes,

I did take my meds.

13

You took it that morning?

14

Yes.

15

You already said that?

16

Yes.

17

What about today, did you take them today?

18

No,

I didn't take them today because I

19

was,

I thought I had to be here at exactly 8:00.

20

I didn't get that much sleep because I was trying

21

not to miss the cab and so when I got up,

22

chance to get my shower, get dressed, and I thought

23

maybe I got time to fix something to eat and I was

24

trying to fix something to eat.

25

said, the cab is here.

FAX 314-241-6750

So

I got a

And then my son

So I couldn't get nothing to

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 39
1

eat, so I cannot take my meds unless I have food on

my stomach first.

3
4

So you said your son told you your cab was

here, was your son at your apartment this morning?

No, he came and knocked on my door today.

Does your son live in the complex?

He stays at

and I stay at

It is

like a walkway.
What's your son's name?

10

11

And he's here today with you?

12

Yes.

13

He's your godson?

14

Yes.

15

You're not related by blood then?

16

No, huh-uh.

17

Is that the same person that has the power

18
19

, that's my godson.

of attorney for you?


A

The one that has power of attorney is

20
21
22

, that's my birth son.


Q

Okay, all right.

You remember you and I

talked last week about you coming in; is that right?

23

Yes.

24

Do you remember having a conversation on

25

the phone with me?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 40
1

Yes.

I know that upset you, you didn't really

want to have to do that?

Yes.

But one of the things you talked to me

about that time you had mentioned that you wear a

body camera?

Yes.

How long have you been wearing the body

10
11
12

camera?
A

I've been wearing the body camera for

almost two months.

13

Were you wearing the body camera on

14

August 9th?

15

No.

16

Do you have it on today?

17

No, that's because you told me that I

18

couldn't wear it.

19

telling me.

20

21
22

That's respecting what you are

Why did you decide two months ago to start

wearing the body camera?


A

I don't want to be disrespected no more by

23

officers.

24

nigger bitch, a bitch ass nigger by officers.

25

was County Brown and one was Ferguson.

FAX 314-241-6750

I've been called, excuse my French, a

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

One

It hurt me,

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 41
1

like it cut me with a knife.

everybody,

belief you have,

I said I respect

don't care what color you is, what

respect everybody.

Okay.

So I

that to me.

I wore it.

doing, ma'am.

You have a good day.

day too, sir.

When I have the body camera on.

10

can understand why these officers did

So when I was offered the body camera,


And when they see body camera, how you
You have a good

I didn't have that on me, that's what I was called.

11

Okay.

12

You know, the N word didn't bother me.

13

The B word did, but that's a female dog.

14

walk on fours,

15
16
17

I don't

I walk on two.

Well,

No,

understand and frankly the N word

is
cause that didn't bother me I was not

18

acting a fool,

19

really actually stands for,

20

stupid and doing stupid things.

21

When

you know, that's what that word


a person that is acting

Let me ask you, you started wearing this a

22

couple of months ago, were you wearing it when the

23

police came to your house and upset you the way you

24

talked about that he was calling you?

25

FAX 314-241-6750

I didn't have it on, but it was in my

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 42
1

home.

Okay.

So when they came, they came in the

4
5

morning and I still had my pajamas on that day.


Q

Okay.

So the first police that came to

your house, were those the County Browns, were those

detectives with St. Louis County?

No, they was FBI.

Okay.

But when they first came to your

10

house, you didn't talk to them, you didn't make a

11

statement at that time?

12

I wasn't there.

13

Okay.

14

They kept on missing me.

And then eventually you did talk to

them; is that right?

15

Yes.

16

And Sheila asked you during the interview

17

you got upset and you grabbed the recorder and

18

turned it off is; is that right?

19
20
21
22

I didn't grab it, it was on my table,

just pushed the button off.


Q

Okay.

You said you were upset because

they were telling you you were a liar?

23

Right.

24

Were they saying that while it was

25

recording?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 43
1

Yes, they did.

Okay.

He said you're lying because we talked to

And so --

a whole lot of other people, they ain't said nothing

you are saying, you lying.

okay, you say I'm lying, then I'm lying,

off.

apartment.

10
11

And that's when I say


I cut it

I said get your recorder and get out of my

Okay.

And then at some point you calm

down or they got you to calm down?


The one with the black hair, he's the one

12

that told me,

13

an ass,

14

interview.

, just overlook him.

just overlook him,

He's being

just go on with this

15

So they turned on the recorder again?

16

I cut it on.

17

Okay.

18

And then you started telling them

what you saw; is that right?

19

Right.

20

Just so I'm clear, I know you said you

21

live in this

right here?

22

Right, uh-huh.

23

What floor do you live on?

24

The bottom.

25

Okay.

FAX 314-241-6750

(indicating)

So from when you exit your house,

Gore Peny Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.gorepeny.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 44
1

do you have to walk up steps?

That's five little steps.

So you don't have like a balcony?

No.

When you look out the window of your

house,

can you see out to Canfield?

No,

I can only see the parking lot and

building across from me.

apartment and went to

10

Okay.

11

It is still

12
13
14

That's why I left my


(sic)

it is

is

their address.
Q

Okay.

So you said you were watching TV

when you first heard shooting?

15

Right.

16

And then you went outside at that point?

17

Yes.

18

Do you remember when you were talking to

19

the FBI agents, do you remember telling them that

20

you heard nine shots and two clicks, do you remember

21

telling them about the clicks?

22

23

click.

24

Okay.

25

I did say that.

FAX 314-241-6750

The clicks.

I told them I heard click,

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 45
1

Do you know what that was, the clicks?

I just heard click, click.

When did you hear the click, click in

relation to what you saw?

That was after.

After?

He hit the ground.

Okay.

9
10

So after Michael Brown hit the

ground, you hear two clicks; click, click and you're


shaking your head yes?

11

Yes,

I forgot.

12

That's all right,

I'll catch you.

So you

13

said, you testified here today that you saw when you

14

came around kind of down by the street, you saw

15

Michael Brown on his knees in the street with his

16

hands in the air; is that right?

17
18

19
20

They weren't all way up in the air, they

was like this.


Q

(indicating)

Okay.

And the officer you said you saw

him shoot him in the head at this point?

21

Yes.

22

Do you remember when you talked to the FBI

23

you told them that you didn't actually see any of

24

the shots?

25

FAX 314-241-6750

No,

I did not tell them that.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 46
1

Okay.

No.

Okay.

You don't recall saying that?

And did you ever see another

African-American young man that was around there at

the time?

That was running?

Yes.

At the time?

Yes.

10

Yes,

11
12
13

I did see a young man running on like

that side, this right here.


Q

How about can you use the map to say where

he was running?

14

I can imagine that there is Canfield.

15

Okay.

16

And that's the side I'm on, and that side

17

there is where like the mailbox be in the other

18

apartments.

19

toward.

20
21
22

He was on that side running and going

You are talking about the south side of

Canfield, right?
A

Yeah, on that side that is outside and he

23

was there and he was running.

24

the male basically stood before he be going this way

25

and he was running behind the building.

FAX 314-241-6750

Okay.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

This is where

But he was

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 47
1

coming from this way,

coming down, he shot across

the street to the grass area he was running.

(indicating)

What did he look like?

He had dread, dreadlocks as they called

them,

call them dreads.


He was, he was my complexion.

He was

not chubby or real skinny, he was like mid frame,

I can find somebody in here, he was your size.

10
11
12
13

if

(indicating)
Q

Do you remember anything about what he was

wearing?
A

He had on a white T-shirt,

I don't

14

remember if he had a hat on because I saw the hair.

15

He had on short blue jeans pants,

16

sag, that's the way they were.

17
18
19

Okay.

you know how they

Do you remember what the officer

looked like that day?


A

Caucasian, he had blond hair.

20

color I only saw the side of his face,

21

see his eyes.

The eye
so I couldn't

22

Do you remember what he was wearing?

23

He was wearing a blue uniform.

24

Do you remember if it was long sleeve,

25

short sleeve?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 48
1

Short sleeve.

How about a hat, did he have a hat on?

No hat.

You saw the officer's face and I know you

said you're not real good at left and right, but you

saw a side of his face that you said looked red?

Yes.

But you don't know why that side of his

9
10

face was red?


A

No,

I don't know because he was mad, he

11

was blushing or whatever,

12

that it was red.

I don't know.

I just know

13

Okay.

14

If he was like turning like I am to you,

15
16

his whole face was red.


Q

And so you recall today that Michael Brown

17

was on his knees with his hands about like this?

18

(indicating)

19

Yes, ma'am.

20

You saw the officer shoot him in the head?

21

Yes, ma'am.

22

You saw him fallon the ground?

23

Yes, ma'am.

24

And did the officer shoot any more after

25

his knees had fallen on the ground?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 49
1

I know I heard his hands did,

I guess,

like this on the gun.

Did you hear gunshots?

No,

I just heard click, click and it could

have been behind me clicking, I just heard click,

click.

But you could see the officer's hand

pulling the trigger?

Yes.

10

Do you remember which hand the gun was in?

11

No, not at this time, no.

12

Did you see any blond or when Michael

13

Brown was on his knees with his hands in the air,

14

did you see any blood on his shirt?

15

I just saw the back of him.

16

You just saw him from the back?

17

Right.

18

Did you see any blood on his back?

19

I wasn't looking for no blood or nothing

20

like that.

21

going to say I saw blood.

22

didn't see none when he was on his knees and stuff

23

like that.

24
25

If I want to make some stuff up,

MS. WHIRLEY:
other questions.

FAX 314-241-6750

I'm not

I did see blood later.

Okay.

I don't have any

The grand jurors might have

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 50
1
2

questions for you.


A

Anyone have questions?

No questions, thank you.

I have two questions.

You stated that you saw Michael Brown that morning

walking, you met him in the street, you had been out

taking your morning walk, you saw him and he was on

his way to the store?

(Nods head.)

And you said that Michael

10

had told you that he wanted to change his life and

11

become better?

12
13

He said he wanted to change his life from

what he was doing.

14
15

Okay.
A

What he was doing, don't nobody know that

16

but him.

17

staying with his grandma, I found out later, he was

18

staying with his grandma, which was at Northwinds,

19

which was around the corner where I was staying.

20

I knew who Michael Brown was, cause he was

But he socialized with everybody in

21

Canfield because he basically join the younger folks

22

in Canfield, there was older folks in Canfield.

23

he hung out there, so that's where I got a chance to

24

know where he was.

25

FAX 314-241-6750

So

You don't know if he was


Gore Perry Reporting and Video
314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 51
1

troubled?

No.

Every time I saw him he just, you

know, told me that and we talk about God all the

time.

I'm not coming down, he's going up.

we have our conversation.

five,

If I'm not going up, he's coming down, and if

10
11

Do you know, ma'am, if


you took your medicine the day before?
A

I only missed three weeks and that's just

recently.

12

Okay.

13

MS. WHIRLEY:

Thank you so much.

Anyone else?

14
15

And we have maybe like

ten minute talks, he go his way and I go mine.

That's the way

Good morning.
A

Good morning.

16

I know

17

that you testified and I know you have been through

18

a lot since this incident, but you're not holding

19

any animosity about the situation?

20

Oh, no, ma'am.

21
22
23
24

Okay.

So this is straight

from your heart?


A

Yes, it is.

That's is one thing I cannot

do is hard my heart for nobody.

25

FAX 314-241-6750

All right.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

Thank you.

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 52
1

I still love everybody.


Yes, sir.

That day you

heard the shots and you left your apartment, did you

walk, did you run, did you, what kind of -- how did

you move to the scene?

I ran.

When you hear the shots,

do you think you want to stay in the apartment for

10
11

safety or what kind of drew you out to -A

Because the way that the sound was coming,

12

it never came from that way, it always came from

13

behind in Northwinds.

14

shooting up the town, that's what I thought.

15

an apartment complex back from behind.

16

And Northwinds is known for

Come from a different angle, it is

17

new, it is just me,

18

coming from, that's why.

I want to know where it is

19
20

Okay.
A

21
22

It is

Anyone else?
MS. ALIZADEH:

23

Okay.

Sit here.

I wasn't leaving.
MS. WHIRLEY:

Before we do that, let me

24

ask you, is there anything else you want us to know

25

that we didn't ask you that you would like to

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 53
1
2

express to this grand jury?


A

MS. WHIRLEY:

3
4

got to do it now.

saying anything.

10
11

Now is the time to do it.

Now is the time?


MS. WHIRLEY:

Okay.

Maybe before I leave, but not right now.


MS. WHIRLEY:

5
6

Urn, not at this moment.

If you want to do it, you

We don't want to stop you from


You need to tell us, or to tell

this jury.
A

Well,

I appreciate you all giving me the

12

opportunity to tell my side that I've seen.

13

bless you all, and that's it.

14

MS. WHIRLEY:

15

MS. ALIZADEH:

And God

All right.
You know what

16

when you saw Michael Brown walking earlier and he

17

was walking like toward West Florissant, was there a

18

young man with him when he was walking toward West

19

Florissant or was he by himself?

20

21
22

He was by hisself when I saw him earlier.


MS. ALIZADEH:

Okay.

Nothing else.

(End of the testimony of

23
24
25

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 54
1

of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to

testify the truth, the whole truth, and

nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid,

deposes and says in reply to oral

interrogatories, propounded as follows,

6
7

to-wit:

EXAMINATION
BY MS. WHIRLEY:

Good morning.

Good morning.

10

Please introduce yourself to the grand

11

jury and spell your name for the court reporter?

12

My name is

14

Okay.

15

Yes,

16

About the Michael Brown shooting?

17

That's correct.

18

Do you remember that morning, August the

13

19

, you know why we are here?


I do.

9th, it was a Saturday, 2014?

20

Clearly.

21

Clearly, good.

22

about that morning?

23

straight to the shooting,

24

it.

25

FAX 314-241-6750

Okay.

Tell us what you remember

And you don't have to jump


I want you to lead us into

Basically I was sitting on my porch

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 55
1

around II-ish,

I say 11:35, somewhere around there.

Okay.

You have, there's a laser pointer

right there.

a button right here, there will be a red light.

Do you know how to use that?

There's

You said you were sitting on your

porch, does this map help you to show us where your

porch would be?

Exactly, right here.

What's that address?

10

11

That's in

on the map and this

12

is Grand Jury Number 25.

We are looking at, all

13

right.

14

did you go sit on the porch?

So you were sitting on the porch.

What time

15

Around II-ish, 11:35.

16

What had you been doing before that?

17

I was preparing coffee and to go get

18

better reception on my porch to talk to a friend

19

that was in

20

go out of town.

21

because I was preparing myself to

And I heard a gunshot or two.

22

So one or two shots?

23

Yeah, one or two.

And it caught my

24

attention because I'm sitting on the porch and I'm

25

talking to her and I'm like, hold on, let me call

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 56
1

you back.

And, uh,

I seen to go right into it.

Go ahead.

I seen an officer, as well as Mike Brown,

4
5

6
7

this is east down,


Q

I guess,

I don't know.

Yes, that would be east, on this would be

West Florissant over here.


A

Okay.

Mike Brown was running in this

direction and I came further to my porch balcony

because I couldn't believe it, you know.

I'm used

10

to hearing noises in the neighborhood, gunshots and

11

to see that it was a police officer shooting at an

12

individual running eastbound on my street was kind

13

of like far fetch for me to believe.

14

All right.

So you saw Mike Brown running

15

eastbound and the officer was chasing him shooting

16

after him?

17

It wasn't so much him chasing him, it was

18

just gunshots going on.

19

eastbound on my street.

I seen Mike Brown running

20

What was the officer doing?

21

The angle that I was in,

I seen him in

22

view after he came from this building, he came more

23

clearer to me as he came going up more Coppercreek.

24
25

You are not suggesting that this officer

left this street, are you?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 57
1

No, he did not.

You are talking about you were moving?

I wasn't in clear view of him until he

4
5

came in the view of chasing Mike Brown eastbound.


Q

for you,

Okay.

When the officer came into view,

show me again where you were?

I was on my porch.

Outside?

On the balcony, on the balcony.

10

Is that outside?

11

Yes, ma'am.

12

All right.

13

He was running east bound.

14

Where was the officer?

15

Not too far from,

And where was Mike Brown?

a little bit up further

16

because he wasn't like real clear view of me seeing

17

him as of yet.

18

then I started to see the officer as he was getting

19

closer, but he didn't get that close.

20

cross 9422 Coppercreek, he did not cross over.

I seen Mike Brown clear as day.

He didn't

21

Okay.

22

Basically when a shot went off, again,

23
24
25

And

seen Mike Brown put his arms up and he turns around.


Q

So he puts his arms up before he turns

around?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 58
1

He puts his arms up,

yeah, when he turns

around when he turns around.

Why don't you demonstrate for us?

When he turns around

I'm going to kind of talk to get where I

want to go to, okay,

listen to me.

All right.

Mike Brown is running eastbound.

Yes.

10

The officer is coming after him and you

11

hear shots fired?

12

Yes, ma'am.

13

And so what does Mike Brown do?

14

After the shot,

15

on his arm.

16

Now,

Because I didn't know where he got shot

17

you're guessing, why are you guessing

that?

18
19

I guess when it grazed him

at,

I'm assuming that he got shot.

20

And you learned that later from news?

21

Autopsy.

All I know that he turned around

22

after the gunshot went off, he turned around and did

23

this.

24
25

(indicating)
Q

Okay.

Turn your back to us like you are

running.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 59
1

You running and pow, pow, so I guess he

felt something and he turned around, and he turned

around right on Coppercreek directly in front of

where I was able to see in eyes view.

walking back toward West Florissant where the

officer was in view of me to see him from my porch.

He started

And what was the officer doing as Mike

Brown walks?

He had his gun raised.

10

Was he coming toward Mike Brown, backing

They was both coming at each other at a

11

12

(indicating)

up

13

moderate pace.

Mike Brown was walking towards him,

14

just walking towards him.

15

Like walk towards me.

16

Walking towards him.

And the officer had

17

his gun up like this is all I seen was him having

18

his arms raised and he was coming closer and Mike

19

was coming like, stop shooting.

20

him and kept shooting him.

21

And he's shooting

(indicating)

I'm like, he don't pose no threat,

22

where is his weaponry to where you deem him to being

23

hostile.

24
25

I mean, there was two construction


workers over there on the side of my building that

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 60
1

was viewing the same thing I was viewing.

seen what I seen, so did other people seen what I

seen.

see it to be a hostile situation.

And they

It wasn't justifiable in my eyes and I didn't

So when you saw Mike Brown with his arms

up coming towards the officer, he did not appear to

be rushing the officer to you?

Not at all, not at all.

Did he appear to be charging the officer?

10

Not at all, not at all.

11

What in your mind is going on?

12

I was discombobulated,

I didn't know what

13

was going on because I seen this individual, like I

14

said, running eastbound on my street like what's

15

going on.

16

I didn't see, I didn't deem it to be

17

a hostile situation to where the officer needed to

18

of have had his gun raised at the level in which he

19

had it at, you know what I'm saying?

20

Brown.

21

surrender.

22
23
24
25

Facing Mike

So I know that this sign is a sign of

(indicating)
And you clearly saw his hands raised above

his head?
A

Clearly, clearly, I was in plain view of

seeing it.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 61
1

They were not straight up?

They was at an angle.

At an angle above his head?

It was simply I surrender.

I don't know,

like I said,

I don't know if he got hit or shot at

that point, but based on the autopsy of the news,

didn't know until that came through.

Did you hear Mike Brown say anything?

Stop shooting me.

10

Did you actually hear him say that?

11

Yes,

in the distance that I was at because

12

I think that was he was in pain based on the

13

gunshots due to his body because he was taking them.

14

Did you see any blood?

15

I didn't see any blood, but I seen that

16

the gun was fired off into his upper torso.

17

And you heard him say, stop shooting me?

18

Stop shooting me.

19

At what point was he saying,

21

When they came close.

22

Was his hands raised when he said that?

23

Still, still his hands was still raised.

24

You said the officer shot at him several

20

25

stop shooting

me?

times in his torso when his hands were raised?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 62
1

Yes, ma'am.

How close were they when the officer was

shooting at him when his hands were raised?

walk it out for you.

and I'm Mike Brown, tell me when to stop.

Like if you are the officer

Come further.

Up closer?

Okay.

Get the arms up like, okay, so he's

shooting.

10

So they're this close?

11

At this point right here.

12

I can

And as he was

shooting, he was moving back because they got close.

13

Like we're a few feet apart?

14

Exactly, and he had his arms up.

15

Okay.

16

The officer starts moving back after

Who starts moving back?

17

shooting, still shooting, he was shooting, and then

18

he start moving back.

19
20
21

And how many times did he shoot him when

Mike Brown had his hands up?


A

Uh,

from what I seen it was multiple, like

22

two to the upper torso, two down to the lower torso

23

and the remaining portion,

24

They start to walk further on Canfield going back

25

this way to where it becomes a blind spot for me

FAX 314-241-6750

I'm still on my porch.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 63
1

because of

I'm not able to see at a

certain angle.

So I don't know the closure of the

remaining bullets that caused to the head,

see it because I'm in a blind spot.

I can't

So you didn't see Mike Brown hit the

ground?

I can only assume based on after shot.

You did not see him hit the grown?

10

No,

11

So when you saw him after taking those

12

I did not.

shots to the torso, he was still

13

He was still standing.

14

Standing and walking towards the officer?

15

Yes.

16

Was the officer saying anything?

17

I didn't see the officer's lips move or

18

nothing.

19
20

You would have heard him if he was saying

anything?

21

If he would have said it at a tone to

22

where I was able to hear based on me being on my

23

porch.

24

25

And when Mike Brown said, stop shooting

me?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 64
1

I clearly heard him from this point, from

over here to my parking lot.

the street,

Was he loud in your opinion?

Yes, after with the gun, yes.

Stop shooting me, was he saying that,

7
8

9
10
11

I mean, over here in

I was able to still hear this.

yelling that?
A

It was a scream like.

If the bullets is

piercing his skin.


Q

Okay.

You are still on your porch, you

never went downstairs?

12

I went down after he fell to the ground.

13

Okay.

14

So when you are at your porch,

that's when you see what you see?

15

Yes.

16

You don't see anything happening when you

17

go down?

18

I don't see the closure of the situation.

19

Okay.

So from where you were on your

20

porch to where the incident, the shooting was

21

occurring, any idea how far apart you were?

22
23

The distance between my apartment and the

street?

24

Uh-huh.

25

I don't know the radius,

FAX 314-241-6750

I don't know.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 65
1

Okay.

And your vision, is it pretty good?

No,

You got bad vision?

Yeah,

I got bad vision.

I've got bad vision.

I've got

contacts in to where I'm able to see what I saw

because of the daylight.

So your contacts were in then?

Yes, they were.

And your hearing?

10

Yes, it's good.

11

Okay.

12
13
14
15

All right.

So total number of

shots that you heard that morning?


A

I'm going to say at least ten, that's it.

I can't give you no more.


Q

You think ten.

I know you have heard

16

information on the news about the autopsy and where

17

shots were on his body, right?

18
19
20
21

Yes and no, because I did not listen to or

look at a lot of news.


Q

But you know some of the information by

where he received the shots?

22

Yes, yes.

23

Okay.

24
25

I just

Now, do you recall when you first

talked to the police?


A

FAX 314-241-6750

I did not talk to the police.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 66
1

Who did you talk to?

FBI.

Do you recall when you first talked to the

Yes,

When was that?

It was the following Saturday they came to

FBI?
I do.

everybody's apartment and questioned individuals.

So approximately a week after --

10

Somewhere like that.

11

-- this occurred?

12

Yes, ma'am.

13

And you did give them a statement?

14

Yes,

15

Okay.

16

I did.
As you are telling us here today,

believe you did not see the initial

17

No,

18

-- when he first made contact with the

19

I did not.

police officer?

20

No, ma'am.

21

Okay.

22

You only saw it when the police

officer was pursuing him east on Canfield Drive?

23

Yes, ma'am.

24

And just to make sure I'm clear, were you

25

hearing shots fired as Michael Brown's back was

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 67
1

turned?

Yes, ma'am.

So it would be reasonable to assume that

he's shooting based on what you are telling us, that

he's shooting at Mike Brown as he's running away?

Yes, ma'am.

You say you didn't hear him?

I didn't hear him say anything.

Initially you thought he actually shot him

10

in the back, right?

11

Initially.

12

Before you knew where the shots were?

13

Exactly.

14

You realized he wasn't shot in the back,

15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22

does that make sense with what you saw?


A

Yes, it does,

it makes sense,

it does,

it

makes sense to coincide with what I thought.


Q

Okay.

Now, did you see anyone with

Michael Brown when you saw this incident occurring?


A

No, ma'am.

All I seen was Mike Brown

running eastbound on the street.


Q

And tell me again why you believe that he

23

was hit before he turned around?

24

wasn't shot in his back.

25

was shot in his back, why did you think he was hit

FAX 314-241-6750

We now know he

You said you believe he

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 68
1

before he turned around?

Because I heard gunshots, you know,

heard the gunshot and when he turned around,

figure he was hit.

subdued hisself like, okay, this is real, you know.

You didn't see anything that gave you the

No,

I did not.

I didn't see no physical

indication on his body whatsoever based on distance.

10
11

And so he immediately submitted,

impression that he was injured?

Okay.

Was it strange to you that he was

walking towards the police officer?

12

No, it was not because he was ready to,

13

guess, give hisself up from running based on being

14

grazed by the bullet and I did not know that

15

information until, like you said, the autopsy came

16

out.

17

But, I mean, with his hands up and walking

18

towards the officer, what was your thinking when you

19

saw him do that?

20

He was ready to give hisself up.

21

And you didn't see him do anything

22

threatening towards the officer?

23

No,

24

Now, you seen the movie clip,

25

I did not, none whatsoever.


I call it

movie, but it's a news clip with the two

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 69
1

construction workers?

Yes, ma'am.

And there's someone saying he wasn't a

fucking threat?

That was my voice.

You have seen this and you verified that's

your voice?

Yes.

Okay.

10

Now, once he, well, you already

said you didn't see him hit the ground?

11

No,

I did not.

12

So where do you go after --

13

After he's on the ground.

14

I mean, you just hear, see him approaching

15

the officer, the officer is still shooting, what do

16

you do?

17

get closer.

come from my porch.

18

walk and he's laying there dead on the ground.

19

After hearing a couple more shots go off.

20

Did you hear more shots go off from when

21

you were leaving your porch to get out here on

22

Canfield Drive?

23

Yes,

24

Did you see the officer shooting into

25

I did, yes,

I did.

Michael Brown's body as he laid on the ground?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 70
1
2

No,

I did not.

I can only assume that

that happened.

Did you see him get shot in the head?

No,

Now, how did you make contact with the

They made contact with me.

Okay.

10

I did not.

FBI?

So they came to your apartment?

(Nods head.)
Okay.

Now, when you initially talked to

11

the FBI, and we've listened to your statements, or

12

Kathi Alizadeh and I have, there is information in

13

there that the officer was standing over him while

14

he laid on the ground and finished him off?

15

You know,

I said that out of an assumption

16

based on me being where I'm from and that can be the

17

only assumption that I have.

18

You didn't see him hit the ground?

19

I didn't physically see none of that

20
21

because of the blind spot in which I'm located at


and this is

, there is a cutoff

22

margin so where I'm not able to see.

23

and my common sense leads me to believe that's what

24

occurred.

25

FAX 314-241-6750

My assumption

That once he hit the ground that the

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 71
1

officer finished him off?

(Nods heads.)

You did not see that?

I did not physically see that.

Okay.

You never saw the officer standing

over him shooting into his body?

No,

I did not.

Okay.

Uh, my nephew knew Michael Brown, my

Now, did you know Michael Brown?

10

sister knew Michael Brown, he was a friend of my

11

nephew's.

12

sister's house occasionally to play with my nephew

13

and they was real cool and my sister said he was a

14

well-mannered individual.

They played and he came over to my

15

Did you have any interaction?

16

Never whatsoever.

17

Okay.

19

After he died.

20

Okay.

18

21

You learned all of this after he

died?

Now, did you talk to anyone that

day about what happened?

22

As far as who?

23

About what was going on and what you saw

24

and I mean,

25

other neighbors?

FAX 314-241-6750

just, like the construction workers or

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 72
1
2

Yes, neighbors was conversing with each

other all through the day, all through the night.

Okay.

We was all discombobulated.

What do you mean discombobulated?

Just confused, couldn't believe that it

7
8

9
10
11
12
13
14
15

And you were talking?

happened.
Q

Okay, all right.

You went out here where

the body was, was the officer still there?


A

He was present for a few moments or so

until he was relieved.


Q

What's he doing, what did you see him

doing, if anything?
A

Pacing back and forth,

you know, that's

about it.

16

Did he still have his weapon drawn?

17

No, he did not.

18

Anybody appear to give Mike Brown any type

19
20

He had it in the holster.

of assist?
A

They tried to, but they had it taped off

21

where, you know, individuals could not even enter

22

into, not even close relatives could even enter into

23

the scene.

24

Okay.

25

I had to hold off his step dad because he

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 73
1

was so emotional.

You actually held him off?

Held him off.

his son, you know,

He was ready to go and see

I had to use all my strength.

Did you know the police officer Darren

Wilson?

No,

Never had any contact with him whatsoever?

No,

10

I do not.

I did not.

MS. WHIRLEY:

11

Kathi?

(By Ms. Alizadeh) All right.

12

the first time you talked to the FBI, which was a

13

week after this happened, you told them a story that

14

had a bunch of lies, isn't that right?

15

A bunch of lies?

16

Well, you told them that you saw the

17

officer stand over Michael Brown and empty his clip

18

into his body and finish him off, didn't you say

19

that?

20

Well, you know,

I did say that, but it was

21

based on assumption.

22

because the blind spot, me being in

23
24
25

Like I told her earlier


and that's

I'm not able to physically see the closure of

the situation.
Q

FAX 314-241-6750

You told them that you saw Michael Brown

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 74
1

get shot in the back and that's not true,

2
3

is it?

That's not true based on the truth of the

autopsy coming out.

But you told them

Yeah,

You saw Michael Brown get shot in the

I didn't have no indication of where he

7
8

9
10

I told them that.

back?

was shot at based on me seeing what I seen.


Q

And you told them that you saw the officer

11

within an arm's length of Michael Brown shoot him in

12

the head and you didn't see that, did you?

13

Based on assumption.

14

But you told them?

15

Yes,

16

You saw that?

17

Yes,

18

assumption.

19

I did.

I did tell them that based on

And then you also told them that after

20

Michael Brown was on the ground, the officer stood

21

over him and empty his clip into him and finished

22

him off, and you told them that you saw that?

23

Based on assumption again.

24

But you didn't tell them that you were

25

basing that on assumption, you told them that you

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 75
1
2

saw that?
A

I told them in the second meeting with the

FBI, we all sat down and it was solely based on

assumption because I'm not able to be at a point to

where I'm not able to see.

assumption, if you see the report it says that based

on assumption and my common sense,

physically there, so therefore,

that happened.

10
11

Well, okay.

I told them based on

I wasn't

I can only assume

So I listened to your

statement.

12

You can read it.

13

In your first statement you didn't tell

14

them that you were assuming that,

15

that's what you saw?

16
17
18

you told them that

And that's what the second visit was for

to clarify the first recording.


Q

So in the second interview, they told you

19

that, by the time you gave the second interview, at

20

that point you had seen on the news there was an

21

autopsy?

22

Once again,

I did not look at the TV or

23

listen to reports.

24

as knowing his autopsy,

25

verify my clarification for myself because I did not

FAX 314-241-6750

I looked at the reports as far


I looked at it once to

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 76
1

know where initially where the bullets landed.

Well, you changed your story in the second

interview to say that when he was running away, the

officer's shot actually grazed him in the arm?

And that's what it did.

And you saw that?

Based on the autopsy once again.

So you are basing all of this on not your

personal observation?

10

Well --

11

-- let me finish my question.

12

Okay.

13

So you are basing this on, not your

14

personal observation, but on just things that you

15

heard in the media?

16

It is concrete once the autopsy come out.

17

I can assume anything based on me looking,

18

know,

19

I don't

I don't know where the bullet was landing.

Didn't you say in your second interview

20

you admitted that those things that you said you saw

21

you really didn't see them and you were basing it on

22

what you had seen in the media?

23

That was the truth based on the autopsy

24

coming back.

25

autopsy, so yeah.

FAX 314-241-6750

I don't have no knowledge of giving

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 77
1

So it was after you learned that the

things that you said you saw couldn't of had

happened that way, then you changed your story about

what you seen?

Yeah, to coincide with what really

happened.

So is what you're testifying about today

what you really saw or you also basing your

testimony today

10

I'm not --

11

-- let me finish my question.

Are you

12

also basing your testimony today on things that you

13

assumed?

14

You know, it is not a thing of assumption,

15

based on being in the position when it happened in

16

the beginning because I don't know where the bullets

17

was flying to,

18

where they landed.

19

I can only assume that they landed

And that wasn't the truth of the

20

matter being the autopsy came out and gave clarity

21

based on what I thought I saw.

22

lie.

23

emotion and I knew that this individual was getting

24

shot.

25

named, he was getting shot.

The autopsy didn't

I didn't know in the beginning, I was full of

So I assume the portions of the body that I

FAX 314-241-6750

The autopsy came out to

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 78
1

where it clarified everything where he got shot at

so.

So you assumed when you made your first

statement that the officer stood over him and empty

his clip into him and finished him off?

Once again, based on me being in

and that's

, I can only assume.

only assume.

Why did you assume that?

10

Because some individual getting shot by

11

police, it was like, really, this just didn't

12

happen.

13

I can

I mean, don't you think is it possible

14

that you said that because that's what other people

15

were saying they seen?

16

I didn't base that on anybody else's

17

knowledge of.

18

once again, because I'm in

19

I only based it on my assumption,


and that's

and that's a blind spot.

I only assume

20

based on bullets being fired and a dead body laying

21

on the ground.

22
23
24
25

You never saw Michael Brown fallon the

street?
A

No,

I did not.

I can only assume that he

did because of the bullets that was due to his body.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 79
1

And you said that you could clearly hear

Michael Brown saying the thing he said screaming,

right?

He yelled, don't shoot me, stop shooting.

You remember in your first interview

6
7

Michael Brown put his hands up and said okay?


A

He was saying that too as well as the

bullets was going off of his body, okay, he was

saying okay.

10

You never told the agent in your first

11

interview that he was saying don't shoot me, you

12

said he was saying okay.

13

I never told him in the first interview?

14

Yes.

15

It comes out, to actually see somebody get

Do you recall?

16

gunned down, you might miss a couple of things, you

17

know, because it's just a shock to see an officer

18

shoot somebody the way he did.

19

something.

20

So you might forget

And I'm going to correct myself,

I've got

21

my notes from your first interview.

22

Michael Brown said don't shoot, and then you said

23

you saw him fall to the ground and the officer

24

continue to shoot him.

25

and finished him off in the head.

FAX 314-241-6750

You said

The officer stood over him

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 80
1

Once again, based on my location,

When you were interviewed first,

2
3

you said

Michael Brown said don't shoot?

He was saying that, he was saying that.

And then in your second interview you said

7
8

Michael Brown was saying okay.


A

in his upper torso once again.

10
11
12

He was saying okay based on getting shot

And now you are saying he was saying stop

shooting me?
A

He goes don't shoot, stop shooting, okay.

13

There was a whole bundle of things of getting

14

pierced with a bullet to his upper torso once again.

15

And in your interview, your second

16

interview with the FBI, do you remember an attorney

17

named

that was talking to you?

18

Maybe.

19

Black hair guy.

And he said, you know,

20

that it is important that you talk about what you

21

saw and not what you assume happened?

22

Okay.

23

And it was after he explained to you that

24

you have to talk about what you actually saw and you

25

also at that point knew that there was no shots in

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 81
1

Michael Brown's back, correct?

2
3

there was shot to his back?

5
6

At that point you're saying I didn't know

Well, in your second interview you talk to


about the fact you knew he was grazed

in arm because of the autopsy?

Yes.

You knew about the autopsy results during

your second interview?

10

Based on what I seen with the graze on the

11

arm and him turning around.

12

bullets are concerned, I wasn't concerned about them

13

because of the fact the closure of the bullets, I

14

was only concern of the graze of the arm based on

15

his turning around and putting his arms up and what

16

I seen when he was walking toward the police.

17

was getting shot in the upper torso and lower torso,

18

that's all I can give you based on me visualizing

19

and seeing what I saw, that's it.

20

As far as the other

He

I can't give you the closure of him

21

standing over him and finish him off with a head

22

shot.

23

again, based on me being where I was at in

I don't know.

I don't know.

I assume, once

24

there's a blind spot.

25

can only assume by common sense that occurred.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 82
1
2

So today did you see the officer shoot

Michael Brown as he was running away?

Yes,

You saw him shoot Michael Brown as Michael

I did.

Brown was running away?

I saw him shoot in the direction, he

became clear to, once again, he became clear to me

as Mike Brown running eastbound on the street, he

became clear to me when he made hisself visual

10

outside of

11

this is the angle I'm able to see him at.

12

clear to me and I notice that Michael Brown run this

13

way, he became clear to me when he left this

14

building right here,

15

When he became clear to me,


He became

But my question is today, do you remember

16

the officer shooting Michael Brown as Michael Brown

17

was running away?

18

Yes,

19

You saw him shoot him as he's running

I saw him shoot in the direction Mike

20
21
22
23

I do.

away?

Brown was running into, eastbound.


Q

Okay.

And then as you sit here today, do

24

you remember seeing Michael Brown get shot in his

25

chest and his torso?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 83
1

Yes,

Do you remember Michael Brown falling on

the ground?

I can only assume him falling on the

ground due to me being in

6
7

I did.

and this

, I wasn't able to see him physically fall


to the ground.

So from

Yes.

10

Michael Brown would have been right around

11

is your where your porch is?

this area, right?

12

Yes, he would of.

13

And so at that point you kind of have a

14

side view of him,

is that fair to say?

15

Side view with a blind spot.

16

Side view with a blind spot?

17

Yes.

18

MS. ALIZADEH:

19

MS. WHIRLEY:

I don't have anything else.


Questions?

20
21

Can you show us on the map at which point Michael

22

Brown turned around?

23

24
25

At what point?
Yes, how far east did he

go?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 84
1

here.

around.

He was approximately, he was about right


He was about right here when he turned
(indicating)

4
5

Can you show us where his


body ended up?

6
7

ground.

His body ended up about right there on the


(indicating)

8
9
10

I'm trying to estimate


that distance how far he traveled back to the west
as he was being shot at.

11

12

Right.
I mean,

13

area well, is that 50 feet,

14

like a pretty good distance.

15

16

I don't know that

100 feet, that looks

Yeah, it's a pretty good distance.


That whole time as he's

17

advancing towards the officer he's being shot at and

18

the officer is backing up for part of that,

19

to keep his distance or what's happening in your

20

mind?

21

I guess

In my mind I see Mike Brown with his hands

22

up once again, and they are coming closer and I'm

23

like, why is you shooting this individual if he's

24

showing a surrender, you know,

25

started backing up and still letting rounds off

FAX 314-241-6750

I don't get it.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

He

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014
Page 85

like,

you don't pose no threat, what is the threat.

So I'm really puzzled, you know.

Okay, thank you.

How you doing.

I have some questions.

You said that you made your changes in your story

after, urn, the facts were revealed from the autopsy?

Yes.

10
11

So you said that Michael


Brown was running eastbound?

12

Yeah.

13
14

Okay.
officer was shooting at him?

15

Yes.

16
17

And the police

And you saw him get shot


in the upper torso story?

18

Yes,

19

I did.
So are you telling us

20

that he got shot in the upper torso through his

21

back?

22

23
24

No.
Okay.

25

FAX 314-241-6750

What I'm saying is based on -Not assumption,

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

I want to

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 86
1

know what you saw.

know he was shot?

Did you see blood, how did you

Well, basically his upper torso I was able

to see with my own two eyes.


Okay.

6
7

And after he

turned around?
A

After he turned around, the officer is

coming closer, he's coming closer and I was able to

physically see, no assumptions.

10
11

Okay.
A

He was shooting in his upper torso.

12
13

Okay.
A

And I seen this.

14
15
16

And how do you know he


was shot?
A

Cause I seen it with my eyes.

17

Okay.

What did you see

18

blood, did you see holes, did you see smoke, what

19

did you see?

20

21

I seen the gun being fired,

being fired into his upper torso.

22
23
24

I seen the gun

You saw the gun being


fired towards Michael Brown?
A

25

FAX 314-241-6750

Yes.
You didn't see anything,

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 87
1

a jerk or a fall or anything that would lead you to

believe,

to lead you to believe that he was shot.

see him, you saw him get shot at?

I'm just playing the devil's advocate here,

I seen him get shot.


Okay.

6
7

You didn't

I didn't see him get shot at.

At that

point you are asking me, but as far as when he was

running eastbound is when he get shot at, that's

10

shot at, but being shot.

11
12

Okay.
A

I seen him get shot in his upper torso.

13

Okay.

And what makes you

14

say he got shot, did you see the holes, did you see

15

the blood?

16

The distance between the officer and

17

Michael Brown and where he had his gun raised,

18

seen him physically get shot in his upper torso.

19

Okay.

And you say he was

20

moving toward the police with his arms up and he was

21

not posing a threat?

22

23

None whatsoever.
Okay.

And I'm going to

24

ask you this, and I believe you, but you live there

25

so you knew he wasn't a threat to you, but if you

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 88
1

were a police officer and he's still moving toward

you, how could you be sure that the police officer

didn't think he was a threat?

and I were being shot at, even though I had my hands

up,

If I were being shot

I'd get on the ground.


Couldn't it be possible, why didn't he

stop moving?

I mean, it would seem to me that there

could still be perceived as a threat if he's still

moving toward the police officer and the police

10

officer is backing up.

11

point,

12

I just want you to tell me if it's possible?


It may be possible in your world.

13

In my world?

14

Yeah.

15
16
17

Look at it from another

Okay.

What does that

mean?
A

That means that you more than likely not

18

to be shot the way he was shot.

19

being as young as he is, not knowing the seriousness

20

the situation.

21

his torso to get down on his knees because he's

22

thinking to hisself,

23

what is he doing.

24

he's here to protect and serve.

25

FAX 314-241-6750

So he did not know,

After getting pierced with the gun,

I'm assuming that this officer

He's here to protect and serve,

If you were being shot,

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 89
1
2

wouldn't you want to get down on the ground?


A

Immediately, but he did not know,

apparently, he did not know to get down on the

ground.

So I want to ask you a

question.

quite a distance that he moved toward the police

officer, 50 to 100 feet?

Again, about that, and you say it was

Uh-huh.

10
11
12

Okay.

And at that point

he was out of your sight?


A

Uh-huh, correct.
So you don't know, he's

13

14

moving toward the police officer, even though he has

15

his hands up, he's still moving towards him.

16

After getting shot in the upper torso.

17
18

After getting shot in the


upper torso, how many times has he been shot?

19

20

about.

21

I say,

I say, about four times,

I think

Four times in upper

22

torso?

23

24

portion.

25

again.

FAX 314-241-6750

Two upper torso and two down lower


At that point it becomes a blind spot once

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 90
So he's been shot four

1
2

times, he's still moving forward, he hasn't gotten

down on the ground, and then he gets out of your

sight and you do not know what happens after that.

You don't know if his hands went down, you don't

know if he charged, you just know that his hands

were up and he was still moving forward.

Correct.

9
10
11

And the police officer


was moving back?
A

Correct.

12

Okay.

So I need to know,

13

you said, and you have to help me understand,

14

to make a good decision here.

15

shooting, but then you said he was saying okay,

16

okay, okay.

17

know what you heard, not what you think you heard or

18

what you heard.

19

You said he said stop

Why are you shooting me.

I'm assuming,

I want

I need to

I'm not going to assume,

20

going to tell you based on you get pierced with a

21

bullet.

22
23
24

I'm

Uh-huh.
A

Multiple things will come out your mouth

you never spoke of.

25

FAX 314-241-6750

Okay.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 91
1

That's what he was going on.

getting pierced by some bullets.

for his life.


Okay.

He was

He was pleading

Thank you.

You have said

earlier today that your story matched those of the

construction workers, did you talk to them earlier

that day?

No,

I did not.

10
11
12

Did you talk to them after


this incident happened?
A

We don't even know each other.

13
14
15

Okay.
communicated since this incident?
A

I haven't communicated to him, no.

16
17
18

How do you know that your


story matches their story?
A

Excuse me?

19
20
21

You haven't

How do you know that your


story matches their story?
A

I say this much, we was looking in the

22

same direction at the same given time.

23

differs, then we both blind.

24

Thank you.

25

FAX 314-241-6750

If it

Immediately

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 92
1

after the shooting stops, were you still on your

balcony?

I started to get closer because I was

curious to want to know why was the extra rounds let

off.
Okay.

cars go by?

Did you see any

Traffic stopped because of the officer's

blocking off Canfield.

10

Okay.

So from the time

11

that you were on your balcony to the time that you

12

started getting closer to where Michael Brown had

13

fallen, did you notice any cars going up and down

14

Canfield.

15

16

None whatsoever.
I'm sorry, one other

17

question.

18

running from the police officer, he first came into

19

your field of vision, as he's running east towards

20

the Northwinds Apartments, can you describe how he

21

was running, was he in a dead sprint.

22

When you saw, when Michael Brown was

It wasn't so much of a dead sprint, he was

23

light footed, he had socks on.

24

get little, in this expression I mean little, he was

25

trying to get up, but he wasn't fast,

FAX 314-241-6750

And he was trying to

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

it wasn't

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 93
1

fast.

It was a moderate pace, you know.

Okay.

And at that point

he turned and as he's turning, his hands go up in

the air?

That's correct.

And he starts moving back

towards the police officer and the police officer is

moving back.

moving at that particular point?

10
11

Was it, can you describe how he was

The way in which he was walking toward

West Florissant?

12

Yes.

13

He was walking at a moderate pace to where

14

he has his arms up, he was walking like this at a

15

moderate pace.

There was not no running whatsoever.

16
17

Okay.

started to hear what he had to say?

18

Because the gunshots was going off.

19
20

And that's when you

Okay, all right, thank


you.

21

At the

22

point that you see him coming back with his hands

23

up, did he ever appear to you that he was charging

24

the police officer?

25

FAX 314-241-6750

None whatsoever, not to me.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 94
Did it appear to you that

1
2
3

he put his hands on his shirt or in his pants?


A

No indication of that whatsoever.

Thank you.

Prior

to this incident, have you ever seen anyone or view

anyone shot before?

I, myself, have been shot before.


Okay.

10
11

And where did you

get shot?
A

In the arm, in the lower torso.

12

Okay.

And can you tell me

13

what distance you were shot, was it the same

14

distance at which Michael Brown was shot?

15

Much closer.

16

Much closer, okay.

17

when you were shot, did you immediately start

18

bleeding?

19

Yes,

I did.

20

Okay.

21
22
23

And

Were
you shot by the police?
A

(Shakes head.)

24

Did you

25

say that you ever got a visible facial expression,

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 95
1
2

the police officer, could you see his face at all?


A

Yeah, he was looking based on what I seen,

just in a state of confusion,

best I can express it to be.

5
6

Is this afterwards?
A

Yes.

7
8
9

10

I guess, that's the

Could you see him at all


during?
A

Yeah, he was in the street.

He was pacing

back and forth talking to his fellow officer.

11

Okay.

While Michael was

12

running, could you see the police officer, did he

13

ever become visual?

14

15

point.

16

in view.

He became visual to me after he left this


I was able to visibly see him when he came

17
18
19

Could you see his face of


any color issue or anything?
A

At that time there wasn't no physical

20

damage to his face that people say, there was

21

nothing on his face.

22

Thank you.

23
24
25

MS. ALIZADEH:

, you came down

to the scene closer eventually; is that right?


A

FAX 314-241-6750

Yes,

I did.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 96
MS. ALIZADEH:

that area?

Anybody you recognize?

A lot of people that live in the complex.


MS. ALIZADEH:

You recognize anybody that

you know by name.

Yeah,

I did.

MS. ALIZADEH:

10

A lot of people.
MS. ALIZADEH:

Did you see people around

What names do you remember

seeing down there?

11

Urn, they got nicknames, they don't have

12

even use their real names over there.

13

lot of people that live in the complex with me.

14

seen

15

and they was just in awe.

, a lot of other little people

16

MS. ALIZADEH:

17

happening,

18

workers there.

19

So there is a

20

And as the shooting was

I know you said you saw the construction

Uh-huh.
MS. ALIZADEH:

As the shooting was

21

happening, not afterwards, as it was happening, did

22

you see anybody that was in this vicinity?

23

going to generally say, did you see anybody that was

24

on foot in this general vicinity?

25

FAX 314-241-6750

Did I see anybody on foot?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

I'm just

They only came

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 97
1

about being out there when they heard what they

heard or seen what they seen based on Mike Brown

being on the ground.


MS. ALIZADEH:

and

godmother?

10

She's play mom, she stays next door to me.

MS. ALIZADEH:

13

Yes, she was out there.

MS. ALIZADEH:

I wasn't,

nobody.

15

a blockage.

I wasn't paying attention to

I was zoning in to what I seen.

16

18

Where was she when you

first saw her?

14

17

Did you ever see her that

day?

11
12

So did you ever see,

is your stepmom, not stepmom,

Okay.

MS. ALIZADEH:

Okay.

I just had

You said you saw her

out there?
A

After I came from my porch and everybody

19

kind of gathered up as Mike Brown laid on the

20

ground.

21

MS. ALIZADEH:

You weren't paying

22

attention to anything before you saw her at the

23

scene after he was on the ground?

24

25

FAX 314-241-6750

Exactly.
MS. ALIZADEH:

All right.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

Did you talk to

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 98
1

her about what you had seen?

No, no.

MS. ALIZADEH:

Did she talk to you about

what she had seen?


No, she kept stuff to herself, you know,

like I was.

It's like, it is hers, you know.

MS. ALIZADEH:

9
10
11

14

Did you ever,

see?
Exactly.

MS. ALIZADEH:

You never saw Michael Brown

on his knees?
No,

I did not.

15

MS. ALIZADEH:

16

MS. WHIRLEY:

All right.

Did you know


prior to August 9th?

18
A

I've seen her off and on.

20
21

Thank you.

Anybody else?

17

19

I know there

is a part of it at the end that you say you didn't

12
13

I'm like, did this really just happen.

So you have met her?


A

Yes, off and on.

Just,

just the situation

22

just brought everybody close together in a sense

23

because, you know, you see people passing and you go

24

hi, bye, it is just that.

25

FAX 314-241-6750

Okay.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 99
Will

1
2
3

you tell us why you were shot?


A

Could you repeat the question?

4
5
6

Why you got shot,


somebody shot you?
A

Why did I get shot?


Yes.

Urn, it was a misunderstanding between me

and a brother-in-law.

10
11

Between you and who?


A

A brother-in-law.

It was a family related

12

situation to where you know, it just occurred.

13

That's not on the record?

14

MS. ALIZADEH:

15

MS. WHIRLEY:

16

MS. ALIZADEH:

Pardon me.
Any other questions?
, is there

17

anything else that you can think of or that we

18

haven't asked you that you think is important for

19

this grand jury to know and understand when they

20

make their decision?

21

Basically I think you guys are doing your

22

best to dissect and analyze this case.

23

that you be forever mindful of both sides, of both

24

families and give just due.

25

FAX 314-241-6750

MS. ALIZADEH:

Okay.

I just ask

Anyone else have

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 100
1

anything any other questions?

All right.

.)

(End of the testimony of

of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to

testify the truth, the whole truth, and

nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid,

deposes and says in reply to oral

interrogatories, propounded as follows,

9
10

to-wit:

EXAMINATION
BY MS. ALIZADEH:

11

12

13

Could you tell us your name?

Okay.

remember when I told you

14

you are going to have to speak up so we can hear you

15

all the way back here?

16

Yes.

17

So first of all,

18

can you spell your name

for the court reporter?

19

20

Can I call you

21

Yes.

22

How old are you?

23

24

25

FAX 314-241-6750

And when was your birthday?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 101
1

You live with your mom; is that right?

Yes.

Now,

your mom doesn't live in Canfield

Green; is that correct?

No.

Who lives in Canfield Green that you know?

My dad.

And do you know what your dad's address

10

11

Okay.

is?
don't know.
Do you remember when the police

12

first came to talk to you on the day of the

13

shooting?

14

Yes.

15

Were you at your father's apartment when

16

they talked to you?

17

Yes.

18

Okay.

So if the,

can you look on this

19

map, this is Grand Jury Exhibit Number 25.

These

20

are the buildings and the roads that are in Canfield

21

Green,

can you see where your building is?

22

No.

23

Okay.

No.

Do you know that your address is,

24
25

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 102
1

You don't know that?

No.

Okay.

So here is

So if your dad

told the police that on the day that you were

interviewed that that was your address, would that

be, do you have any reason that your dad wasn't

truthful, right, your dad told the police where you

lived?

Uh-huh.

10

Okay.

11

when they interviewed you, your dad's house?

12

Yes.

13

Okay.

14

And the police were at your house

here.

So here is

on the map right

Do you know what floor your dad lives on?

15

Third floor.

16

The top floor?

17

Uh-huh.

18

And so when you were in your dad's

19

apartment and you look out the window, the front

20

windows, you can see Canfield Drive; is that right?

21

Yes.

22

Okay.

Now, were you staying with your dad

23

when you were on, August 9th that day were you

24

staying there, like the weekend or something?

25

FAX 314-241-6750

Yes.
Gore Perry Reporting and Video
314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014
Page 103

Do you spend weekends with your dad?

Yes.

Do you know people in the complex, do you

have friends in the complex?

No, that was my second time over there.

That was the second time you had ever been

there?

Uh-huh.

Have you been there since?

10

Yes, once.

11

Did you know, now you know that this is

12

about the day that Michael Brown got shot, right?

13

Yes.

14

Did you know Michael Brown before that

16

No.

17

Had you ever seen him in the complex?

18

No.

19

All right.

15

20

day?

Do you know a guy named Dorian

Johnson or DJ?

21

No.

22

Okay.

Urn,

so why don't you tell the grand

23

jurors what you were doing on that day on August 9th

24

when you heard something?

25

FAX 314-241-6750

Urn,

I was listening to some music on the

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 104
1
2

TV until I heard some screaming.


Q

Okay.

Nobody can hear you back here.

That microphone isn't going to amplify your voice.

So let's practice something, say

10

11

A little louder low.

There you go, okay.

I know you can do it.

I bet you raise your voice sometimes, right?

12

13

14

But louder?

(Nods head.)
All right.

So on the day that the

shooting happened you were at your dad's, right?

15

Yes.

16

Where in the apartment were you, is your

17

dad's apartment a two bedroom or one bedroom?

18

One.

19

One bedroom?

20

Uh-huh.

21

So when you would stay at your dad's,

22

where would you, would you sleep in the living room?

23

The living room.

24

Like on a couch?

25

Yes.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 105
1

And so, urn, when you're in the living room

and you look out the windows, do you look onto

Canfield?

Yes.

Okay.

So I think you said that, were you

in the living room when you heard something?


A

Q
A

Q
A

13

No,

14

On YouTube?

15

Yes.

16

Was it on a computer then or on TV?

17

It was on a game.

18

On a game?

19

Yes.

20

Like a handheld kind of game?

21

Yeah.

22

What kind of game was it?

23

A Play Station III.

24

Okay.

25

I was YouTube.

So this is a game that plays on

your TV?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 106
1

Yes.

Was the music turned up real loud?

Like

sometimes my kids turn their music up really, really

loud, was your music up loud?

No.

And what happened that suddenly drew your

attention to something?

I heard some screaming.

And did the screaming, did you think it

10

was inside the apartment or outside the apartment?

11

Outside.

12

And did you,

could you tell at that time

13

if it was a man's scream or a woman's scream or a

14

boy's scream?

15

Urn, no.

16

You couldn't tell?

17

No.

18

Was the scream a word or words or was it

19

just a sound?

20

It was just a sound.

21

Prior to the scream, did you hear anything

22

else that drew your attention?

23

No.

24

So that's the first thing that you heard

25

that you thought, what was that?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 107
1

Yes.

All right.

heard the scream?

So what did you do when you

I walked to the window and started to look

out the window.

So now in your living room, because we

heard people talk about the apartments there,

there a sliding glass door?

is

Yes.

Q
A

13

door?
A

16
17
18

open or closed?
A

They was open, but there was some missing

so I didn't have to touch the blinds.

19

They were open?

20

Yes.

21

You didn't have to touch them?

22

Yes.

23

They were in a way where you could look

24
25

through the blinds?


A

FAX 314-241-6750

Yes.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 108
1

So the blinds were across the window, but

they were open?

Yes.

All right.

window,

else home with you?

So when you looked out the

let me ask you first.

Was there anybody

No.

So when you looked out the window from

9
10
11
12
13

what did you see when you looked out the


window?
A

I saw a police car parked in a funny kind

of way.
Q

Okay.

Let's back up.

I'm going to repeat

14

what you say so everybody can make sure they hear

15

your answers and you tell me if,

16

if I say something and it is not what you said, you

17

need to correct me, okay?

remember if I say

18

All right.

19

So you said you saw a police car?

20

Yes.

21

Was it, can you describe the car?

22

Urn,

23

A truck?

24

Uh-huh.

25

So are we talking about like a pickup

FAX 314-241-6750

I guess it was a truck.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 109
1

truck or like an SUV truck?

Like an SUV truck.

Okay.

Did it have markings on it or was

it just a plain color?


It was a white car with blue police light

on it.

police SUV?

All right.

Now,

so this was a marked

You said it was what?

11

it?

12

Yes.

13

That said police?

14

Yes.

15

Did it have a light bar on the top of the

16

truck?

17

Yes.

18

Were the lights on?

19

No.

20

Okay.

21

So you see the police truck and you

said it was parked in the street?

22

Yes.

23

You said it was kind of,

24
25

I can't remember,

did you say it was kind of parked funny?


A

FAX 314-241-6750

Yes.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 110
1

How so?

It was like it was in the street kind of

3
4

like tilted so nobody could get past.


Q

Okay.

So from where you were looking at

it, which side of the police truck were you looking

at, the driver's side or the other side?

The driver's side.

And so if this is the map of that street

and if you live here, can you use this, this is a

10

pointer, if you press that button see look, so you

11

can use this to point on here.

12

there where the truck was when you saw it parked

13

kind of funny?

Can you point on

14

It was about right there.

15

So pretty much in front of your apartment?

16

Yes.

17

Okay.

18

(indicating)

And so when you looked out and saw

the police car, did you see any people?

19

Yes,

20

One other person?

21

Uh-huh.

22

And what did that person look like?

23

He was dark skin, had dreads and he had on

24
25

I saw one other person.

a black shirt.
Q

FAX 314-241-6750

And where was he?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014
Page 111

1
2
3
4

A
the side.

He was standing about like right here on


(indicating)
So he was a little, a little further down

the street east from where the police car was?

Yes.

So if he,

from where he was,

could he

reach out and touch the police car?

No.

No.

10

Yes.

11

What was he doing?

12

He was just sitting there watching.

13

So when you say he was sitting there, was

14

Too far away to touch it?

he actually sitting?

15

No, he was standing.

16

Was he in the street or on the side?

17

On the sidewalk.

18

On the sidewalk?

19

20

21

(Nods head. )
Was he on the opposite side of the street

or was he on your side of the street?

22

Opposite side.

23

Okay.

24
25

And so did you see anybody else on

the street or around the police car?


A

FAX 314-241-6750

I saw two cars trying to get through

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 112
1

coming from each direction.

So were these regular cars or police cars?

Regular cars.

And you said they were going east to west,

were they going this way on Canfield?

6
7

the other way.

8
9

One was going that way and one was going

that way?

(indicating)

One was coming this way and one was coming


(indicating)

10

Yes.

11

Were they able to get by?

12

Yes.

13

So they went ahead and passed the police

15

Uh-huh.

16

And did the car that was going westbound,

14

17

car?

did that pass the police car too?

18

Yes.

19

Okay.

20

What was going on at or around the

police car, did you see anything?

21

Yes.

22

What did you see?

23

I saw, urn, the man like trying to pull

24

away from the police, pull his arm out of the police

25

car.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 113
1
2

Okay.

So let's stop.

You said you saw

the man was trying to pull away from the police car?

Yes.

So is this the man with the dreads in the

black shirt?

No.

So this is another person.

So let's

describe this person, what did he look like from

what you could see?

10
11

I saw a red hat,

some yellow and black

socks and flip flops.

12

All right.

13

14

Was it a ball cap style hat?

15

Yes.

16

Okay.

17

Yellow and black.

18

Yellow and black.

19

Red hat, what kind of hat?

think the Cardinals.

And you said what color socks?

And then you said some

Nike flip flops?

20

Yes.

21

And what about his shirt, could you tell

22

what kind of shirt he had on?

23

No,

24

Khaki shorts?

25

Uh-huh.

FAX 314-241-6750

I saw khaki shorts he had on.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 114
1

And so when you looked out and you saw

him, were you looking at his back, his side or his

front?

His back.

And so could you see his face when you

were looking out, when you first looked out?

No.

Was this,

I mean, we've said a he, it was

a male, correct?

10

Yes.

11

Was he African-American?

12

Yes.

13

And can you give me an idea of how old he

14

might have been?

15

Like 17 or 18.

Q
A

19

No.

20

What about his size, what was his size

22

I'd say about 210.

23

About what?

24

210.

25

Like that would be his weight, 210?

21

like?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 115
1

About how tall, how tall are you

5'8".

And looking at what you could see of this

(Nods head.)

person, did he look like he was taller than that?

Yes.

All right.

first,

trying to pull away.

10

And so where was he when you

you said that you saw him look like he was


Where was he when you first

looked out and saw him?


A

12

away.

13

Pull away from what?

14

The police car, inside the police car.

15

So he was at the side of the police car?

16

His arm was.

17

His arm was?

18

(Nods head.)

19

Describe what you remember seeing.

Is he

20

next to the police car, in front of the police car,

21

behind the police car?

22

He was next to it.

23

Was he on the driver's side or on the

24

other side?

25

FAX 314-241-6750

Driver's side.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 116
1
2

Was he closer to the front of the car or

the middle of the car or the back of the car?

The front.

Okay.

Could you see, you said his arm,

you said something about his arm, what was his arm

doing?

His arm was inside the police vehicle.

All right.

His arm was inside the police

vehicle?

10

Yes.

11

Do you remember which arm?

12

No.

13

And did you get any,

14

could you see what

was going on inside the police vehicle?

15

No.

16

Could you see if there was anyone inside

17

the police vehicle?

18

I wasn't paying attention to that.

19

Okay.

21

Yes.

22

And one of his arms is inside the police

20

23

So at this point you just notice

him?

vehicle?

24

Yes.

25

So I don't want to assume anything, but is

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 117
1

it, is the door open, is the window open, how is it

that his arm is inside the vehicle?

The window is down.

Okay.

Which window, the front,

driver's window or back window?

The driver's window.

All right.

like the

And so you said he was like

trying to pull away?

Yes.

10

Okay.

Can you describe what you mean by

11

that, what was he doing that you say it looked like

12

he was trying to pull away?

13
14
15
16

Because he had one of his arms on the

police vehicle moving back trying to pull away.


Q

So one of his arms was on the police

vehicle?

17

(Nods head.)

18

And the other one was inside?

19

Yes.

20

And you think he was trying to pull away?

21

Yes.

22

Could you see why he couldn't walk away

23

from the vehicle, could you tell what was keeping

24

him from

25

FAX 314-241-6750

I guess he was grabbing on like.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 118
1
2

Okay.

And you're guessing that or you can

see it?

I'm guessing.

So you couldn't tell what was holding him

from pulling away?

No.

You said it was like he was trying to pull

Yes.

10

And, okay.

11

Then, uh,

12
13
14

away?

So what did you see then?


I seen the police officer try to

tase him.
Q

Okay.

So you said you saw the police

officer try to phase him?

15

Uh-huh.

16

Could you see a police officer?

17

You said, did I see a police officer?

18

Yeah.

19

Yes.

20

Okay.

21

In the car.

22

Was he in the back or the front?

23

The front.

24

Was he in the passenger or driver's side?

25

Driver's side.

FAX 314-241-6750

Where was the police officer?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 119
1

And you said you saw him try to tase him?

Yes.

So what do you mean by that, describe what

4
5
6

you saw?
A

I saw him pullout something.

I also saw

something go past.

You saw who pull out something?

The police officer.

All right.

10

And did you see where he

pulled it out of?

11

No.

12

And what did this thing that he pulled out

13

look like?

14

15

thing.

16

I'm sorry, it was like a yellow?

17

Yellow and block.

18

Yellow and black?

19

Yes.

20

So you described it, you said that he

21

It looked like a yellow and black kind of

tried to tase him, have you seen a taser before?

22

No.

23

All right.

24

looks like?

25

FAX 314-241-6750

Uh,

What do you think a taser

I think it is yellow and black.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 120
1

Okay.

So does it look like, all right.

You said the officer had that in his hand.

remember which hand it was in?

Do you

Q
A

Q
A

10

the car?

11

Yes.

12

Okay.

13

And you said you saw something come

out of it?

14

Uh-huh.

15

Did you hear anything?

16

No.

17

You didn't hear any kind of pow or noise?

18

Not until he shot.

19

Okay.

20

So at this point something comes

out of the taser?

21

Yes.

22

What did that look like?

23

It was like a string.

24

Like a string?

25

Like a metal string.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 121
1
2

Okay.

And so does that look like it hit

the boy or the man at the car?

No.

Did you see that it didn't hit him or you

couldn't tell?

I saw that it didn't hit him.

So did it go past his body then?

Yes.

Have you ever seen like a taser being

10

fired like on television or anything?

11

No.

12

You never seen a taser being fired?

13

No.

14

Okay.

So then what happened then you saw

15

the taser and the thing came out and went past the

16

boy in the car, what happened then?

17

I saw him pullout his gun.

18

You what?

19

I saw him pullout his gun.

20

You saw him with his gun?

21

Yes.

22

You saw who with his gun?

23

The officer.

24

So where did the gun come from,

25

did you

see how the gun came into the picture?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 122
1

No.

Did the gun look different than the taser?

No.

It looked like the same thing?

Just a different color.

Different color.

So the taser kind of

looks like a gun?

Yes.

Only it was yellow and black?

10

Yes.

11

And then a string thing came out of it?

12

Yes.

13

And the gun, what color was that?

14

Black.

15

Was the officer still in the car or out of

16
17
18
19
20

the car or where?


A

He was just about to get out.

He was

opening up the door.


Q

Okay.

So you saw the officer opening up

the door?

21

Yes.

22

And did he get out of the car?

23

Yes, but he waited until after he fired

24
25

the shot.
Q

FAX 314-241-6750

Let's back up then.

You saw the gun and

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 123
1

do you know what hand the officer had it in?

No.

You said that he fired a shot?

Yes.

Where was the boy who had been at the car,

where was he when the shots were fired?

He was at the apartment complexes.

Was he running into the apartment complex

when the shot was fired from the gun?

10

Yes.

11

Okay.

12

gun being shot while the boy was up at the car?

13

Yes.

14

Okay.

15

So did you ever see or hear that

So let's back up.

You see a taser

being fired and then you see the gun?

16

Yes.

17

And the first shot of the gun, where was

18

the boy when it was first shot?

19

He was still at the car.

20

Still at the car?

21

(Nods head. )

22

And then what happened?

23

Then that's when he took off.

24

He took off.

25

Yes.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 124
1

And then where did he go?

He ran down the street.

So when you say he ran down the street,

was that Canfield Drive?

Yes.

And did he run west towards West

Florissant or east towards Northwinds Apartments?

East.

So the officer got out of the car?

10

Yes.

11

Do you remember talking to the police

12

about what you had seen?

13

Yes.

14

Okay.

15

And did the officer have any

trouble getting out of his car?

16

No.

17

Okay.

Do you remember telling them that

18

the officer opened the door to shoot and then got

19

out of the car?

20

Yes,

21

So where was the officer when he first

22

I remember.

shot the gun?

23

He was still in the car.

24

In the car?

25

(Nods head.)

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 125
1

So when you said that he opened the door

to shoot, when he first shot the gun, was the car

door open or closed?

Open.

It was what?

Open.

Open.

10

So he had opened his door?

(Nods head.)
And Michael Brown was still at the

vehicle?

11

Yes.

12

Okay.

13

Yes, he opened it.

14

So was Michael Brown hit by the door when

15

Did he open his door all the way?

the door open?

16

No.

17

And I said Michael Brown, you know that's

18

Michael Brown, right?

19

Yes.

20

Okay.

21

So was he farther away from the

vehicle when the door came open?

22

He was like almost towards the back.

23

So he had started moving at that point?

24

Yes.

25

And he was close to the rear of the

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014
Page 126

vehicle?

Yes.

And so you, when the officer fired the

gun, was he still sitting in the driver's seat?

Yes, he was still sitting.

So he would of had to turn around,

if he

was shooting at Michael Brown and he was close to

the rear of his vehicle, did he have to lean out and

turn around?

10

Yes, he was halfway out.

11

Halfway out of the car?

12

13

14

(Nods head.)
And so after that shot, did you see where

that shot went?

15

No.

16

No?

17

No.

18

What happened then?

19

That's when he kept running.

20

So Michael Brown kept running?

21

I guess.

22

Okay.

Don't guess.

I thought that's what

23

you said he kept running.

24

it because I want to make sure they hear you.

25

FAX 314-241-6750

I'm just trying to repeat

After that first shot I turned to look

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 127
1

away,

guess, or whatever.

3
4

I thought everything, he had him in custody,

So after that first shot, you turned away

and you didn't watch it?

Yeah,

Okay.

I didn't watch it.


Was there something that was going

on that drew your attention away from what was going

on outside?

No.

10

Why is it that you turned away?

11

Because I didn't hear no more gunshots

12

until, actually,

13

more.

14

I sat down and then I heard some

All right.

So when you say you turned

15

away, let's back up.

When you were looking out the

16

sliding glass door, were you sitting down or

17

standing up?

18

Standing up.

19

And so when you turned away, did you

20

actually turn your body away from this or did you

21

just not look?

22

I turned my body away.

23

Did you then go back into the living room?

24

You say what?

25

Did you stay in the living room?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 128
1

Yes.

Did you go sit down?

Yes.

All right.

So once you turned away, now

at this point you said, you have gotten to the point

where you said you heard one gunshot?

Uh-huh.

And you saw the officer shooting his gun

as Michael Brown was running away?

10

Yes.

11

Or he was near the back of the vehicle?

12

He was running, yes, he was.

13

Can you tell me where Michael Brown was,

14

how his body was when you saw that first gunshot,

15

was he facing the officer, was he facing away from

16

the officer?

17

He was facing away.

18

Facing away.

19

you saw that first gunshot?

20

Yes.

21

Okay.

22

Had he started to run when

And then you turned away from the

window and you sat back down?

23

Yes.

24

Did you hear anything after that?

25

Yes.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 129
1

What did you hear?

I heard several more gunshots.

Okay.

Were those was there a pause

between any of those gunshots?

No.

And you said several or seven,

I want to

make sure?

Several.

Several?

10

Uh-huh.

11

Can you in your head imagine them and see

12

if you can tell me how many you think there were?

13

Four to five.

14

Okay.

15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23

And then what, if anything, did you

do after you heard those four to five shots?


A

I stood there and watch him get on his

walkie-talkie thing and I saw more officers come.


Q

hear you.
A

Okay.

So I got to come up here so I can

You still what?


I stood right there and I saw him get on

his little radio thing.


Q

So let's go back.

So at some point you

went back to the window?

24

Yes.

25

When the four or five shots went off, were

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 130
1

you still on the couch or were you up at the window?

I was still on the couch.

Okay.

window, what did you see, was it still going on?

No.

Okay.

7
8

9
10
11

So when you went back to the

What did you see when you looked

back out the window?


A

I saw him laying down.

He was already on

the radio.
Q

You said you saw him laying down, so would

that be Michael Brown?

12

Yes.

13

And he was bleeding?

14

Yes.

15

Can you use the pointer and show me where

16

he was laying down?

17

18

19

(Indicating. )
Was he me the street, or in the grass or

on the sidewalk?

20

In the street.

21

Where was the officer?

22

He was over him.

23

Over him?

24

Uh-huh.

25

So standing over him?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 131
1

Yes.

What was he doing?

He was like on his radio thing.

So you pointed to your shoulder, was he

talking, did it look like he was talking on a radio

on a shoulder?

Yes.

Could you hear what he was saying?

No.

10

Did you hear Michael Brown and the

11

officer, other than the scream that you heard, did

12

you ever hear them say anything?

13

No.

14

Did you ever hear any other screams?

15

No.

16

When you say the officer was standing over

17

him and he was talking on the radio, did the officer

18

still have his gun?

19

Yes, he still had it out.

20

Where was it?

21

In his right hand.

22

So it was still out?

23

Yes.

24

Was he shooting it?

25

No.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 132
1

After you turned away, after you saw the

first gunshot, did you ever see the officer fire the

gun?

No.

So when you looked, when you said that his

gun was out, can you stand up for me and show them

how it was?

How the officer was?

Yeah.

10

He was like this on his thing.

11

(indicating)

12

So the gun was like down at his side?

13

Yes.

14

Was it pointed at anybody?

15

No.

16

Okay.

17

You can sit back down.


Now, at some point you were talking

18

to the police you told them that you saw, well,

19

initially when you were first interviewed you said,

20

and I want to make sure I get it right.

21

saw a man with his hands in a police car trying to

22

snatch it away and then he got away.

23

remember saying that?

24

Uh-huh.

25

What do you mean by that.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

You said I

Do you

That he was

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 133
1

trying to snatch it away,

by that?

3
4

grabbing,

I don't know what you mean

Like he was trying to prevent him from


keep grabbing his arm.
Okay.

So let's clarify.

When you say I

saw a man with his hands in a police car trying to

snatch it away, who was trying to snatch something

away?

The deceased.

10

Michael Brown?

11

Uh-huh.

12

What was he trying to snatch away?

13

His hand.

14

So he was trying to get his hand out of

15

the police car?

16

Yes.

17

Did you see anything in his hand?

18

No.

19

Okay.

And then you also said in the

20

second, now you, last week you actually met with the

21

FBI and the attorney and gave them another

22

statement, right?

23

Yes.

24

And that was downtown at their FBI

25

headquarters?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 134
1

Yes.

Or did they come to your house?

Downtown.

Downtown.

Okay.

And you said at that

time you said the officer, it was like the officer

was trying to pull him into the car, did you say

that just last week?

Yes.

So describe what you saw that makes you

10

say that?

11

Okay.

12

So you saw who pulling away?

13

The deceased.

14

Okay.

15
16
17

Cause I saw him pulling away so.

And why is it that you say you saw

the officer was trying to pull him into the car?


A

Because I saw him going in like a back and

forth motion.

18

A back and forth motion?

19

Yes.

20

So did you ever see the officer, other

21

than the time you saw the taser and then saw the

22

gun, did you ever see the officer's hands?

23

No.

24

So when you say a back and forth motion,

25

what was moving back and forth?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 135
1

Urn, the

The arms?

The decease's body.

The decease's body?

Yes.

Was it moving forward and back, or was it

--

from side to side or both?

Forward and back.

Forward and back?

10

Yes.

11

And you said already that you saw a hand,

12

one of his hands was inside the police vehicle?

13

Yes.

14

And one was on the police vehicle?

15

Yes.

16

Okay.

And you said you saw the police

17

officer grabbing,

I couldn't understand what you

18

said, and then you said he was reaching for

19

something and he was trying to open the door.

20

Yes.

21

So let's go back.

I couldn't hear on your

22

taped statement because you are so quiet you said

23

you saw the officer grabbing.

24

saying that?

25

FAX 314-241-6750

Do you remember

Yes.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 136
1

What did you see the officer grabbing?

Pardon me?

You saw him reaching?

Yes.

With his arm or hand?

Hand.

Reaching what?

10

To his side, right side.

11

To his right.

12

just saw him reach.

just saw him reaching.

So you could see officer's

hand reaching to his right side?

13

could see his arm.

14

Yeah.

You said the officer tried to open

15

the door and then he shot his taser.

16

say he tried to open his door, was,

17

assume something, I don't know if that means he

18

couldn't open the door, or he did open the door, but

19

what do you mean when you say he tried to open the

20

door?

21
22
23
24
25

He did, he opened it.

So when you
I don't want to

That's when he

started to open it.


Q

Okay.

Did anything prevent him from

opening the door?


A

FAX 314-241-6750

No.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 137
1

When he tried to open the door, was

Michael Brown still right up against the car?

No, he was towards the end.

It was towards the end.

Okay.

So Michael

Brown, you already said was backed a little bit away

toward the back of the vehicle?

Yes.

And you also said that one of the things,

one of the reasons why you turned away is you assume

10

that Michael Brown would have been in custody and in

11

handcuffs?

12

Yes.

13

Why did you assume that?

14

Because I didn't hear any more shots.

15

Okay.

16

So when you turned away, you turned

away after the first gunshot?

17

Yes.

18

And then you said you heard four more

19

shots?

20

Yes.

21

Was there any pause between the first

22

gunshot and the four more shots?

23

Yes.

24

Okay.

25

Do you know how long it would have

been?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 138
1

About five seconds.

About five seconds?

(Nods head.)

So when you say you turned away and you

didn't look because you assume that Mike Brown or

assume that that guy would have been in custody in

handcuffs, did you assume that before you heard the

four gunshots or after?

Uh, before.

10

Before.

And then you hear four gunshots

11

and then you are went back and looked out the

12

window?

13

Yes.

14

And that's when you saw him on the ground?

15

Yes.

16

When Michael Brown was moving away from

17

the police officer, did you ever see his hands up in

18

the air like this in this motion?

19

20

Okay.

21

22

(indicating)

don't remember.
And so you don't remember?

(Nods head.)
All right.

Did you ever see Michael Brown

23

doing anything with his hands around this area of

24

his midsection?

25

FAX 314-241-6750

No.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 139
1

No, you didn't?

No.

Because you are shaking your head, no,

don't want to put,

mouth, you tell me, it is yes or no.

don't remember,

is,

I don't want to put this in your


And if you

remember I said the correct answer

I don't remember or I don't know, okay?

Uh-huh.

Did you recall seeing anything like that

10

where his hands were somewhere in this area of his

11

body doing anything?

12

No, I don't.

13

Did you ever see Michael Brown running?

14

Yes.

15

Okay.

So can you describe the way he was

16

running, was he running with his arms at his sides

17

or was he running with his arms outstretched in any

18

way?

19

He was running to the side.

20

Arms to the side?

21

Yes.

22

And so when you saw him running, was he

23

running away from the officer?

24

Yes.

25

Was he running fast or was he kind of

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 140
1
2
3

jogging or was he?


A

When I saw him he was just starting to

run, so I don't know.

MS. WHIRLEY:

MS. ALIZADEH:

6
7

I didn't hear that.


When he first took off, is

that what you said?


A

Yes.

8
9
10

His speed, how


fast did you see him run or was it like a jog?
A

It was like a jog.

11

Okay.

12
13

MS. ALIZADEH:

And that was when he first

took off?

14

Yes.

15

(By Ms. Alizadeh)

16

slowed down or got faster,

17

that point?

18

Yes.

19

Is that right?

20

Yes.

21
22
23
24
25

MS. ALIZADEH:
other questions.
Q

So whether he stopped or
you stopped looking at

I don't think I have any

Sheila?

(By Ms. Whirley) You said you have never

seen anyone tased before, right?


A

FAX 314-241-6750

Yes.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 141
1

What made you think he was being tased?

Urn, because I saw like

You got to talk loud enough for me to

I said because I saw him reaching for

4
5

6
7

hear.

something and then I saw a metal string come out.


Q

You sought the officer reach for something

and you saw a metal string come out?

Yes.

10

Okay.

When Mike Brown ran away,

you said

11

he was kind of jogging as he is running away from

12

the officer, was the officer shooting at him?

13

No.

14

Did you hear a shot fired at that point?

15

It got silent.

16

I'm sorry?

17

It was silent.

18

It was silent?

19

Uh-huh.

20

What do you mean?

21

After the first shot,

22
23
24
25

I didn't hear no

more shots until like five seconds later.


Q

Okay.

So the first shot, what was

happening when you heard the first shot?


A

FAX 314-241-6750

He was trying to exit the vehicle.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 142
1

He was what?

Trying to exit the vehicle.

Where was Mike Brown when the officer is

trying to exhibit the vehicle?

Towards the end.

Towards what?

The end of the car.

He was trying to get away from the car?

Yes.

10

And the officer was exiting the vehicle

11

and shot?

12

Yes.

13

What direction did he shoot at?

14

Like he had, he was halfway out the car.

15

So he turned like towards his way to shoot.

16

Turn towards Michael Brown?

17

Yes.

18

He was shooting at Mike Brown as Mike

19

Brown is running away from the car?

20

Yes, as he's starting.

21

Okay.

22

shots?

23

No.

24

And that's when you stopped looking?

25

Yes.

FAX 314-241-6750

And then you didn't hear any other

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 143
1

When you saw Mike Brown at the driver's

side window, when you said you thought he was trying

to get away?

Yes.

Could you see them pretty clearly?

Yeah,

I'm sorry?

I only saw the side of the officer's face

10
11
12

I only saw the side of the officer's

face.

and I saw the back of Michael Brown.


Q

You could see the back of Mike Brown and

the side of the officer's face?

13

Yes.

14

Could you see their hands, you could see

15

Mike Brown's hands?

16

Yes.

17

Could you see the officer's hands?

18

No,

19

You saw his arms.

20

He had short sleeves.

21

Short sleeves.

22

I just saw his arms.


Did he have on sleeves?

So you could clearly see

his sleeves?

23

Yes.

24

You could tell he was white?

25

Yes.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 144
1

How far do you think you were aware from

them, anyway to tell me?

I don't know.

Do you have pretty good eyesight?

Yes.

You don't wear glasses or anything?

No.

So you saw Mike Brown's hands, was Mike

Brown striking the officer?

10

No.

11

When you saw him he wasn't hitting the

12

officer?

13

No.

14

You never saw him with a balled up fist or

15

anything?

16

No.

18

gun?

19

No.

20

You never saw him reach for the officer's

21

gun?
A

24
25

going on in the car?


A

FAX 314-241-6750

No.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 145
1

You were not?

No.

But you were close enough to see, what

could you see?

Well,

You saw who reaching?

Mike, and then I saw the officer reaching

8
9

10

I saw him reaching and I saw --

for his taser, that's all I saw.


Q

So you could see inside the car, you

thought he was reaching for his taser?

11

But I can barely see.

12

You can see the officer reaching for

13

something?

14

Yes.

15

Did you see Mike's hands go to where the

16

officer's hands were reaching?

17

No.

18

Were you in a position to see?

19

Yes.

20
21

MS. WHIRLEY:

I think that's it for me.

Questions?

22

At any

23

point did you see his whole top of his body, Mike

24

Brown's, go inside the police vehicle?

25

FAX 314-241-6750

No.
Gore Perry Reporting and Video
314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 146
1

Do you know what mace

looks like?

What?
Mace?

No.
You are in

, correct?

Yes.

So you didn't see

10

anybody, a man down in the grass area in a green

11

shirt, or did you?

12

No,

I didn't see nobody.

13
14

You didn't see anybody


out there, no people?

15
16

I saw one person on the sidewalk with a

black shirt.

17

No,

18

19

I'm sorry, what?

I saw one person on the sidewalk with a

black shirt.

20

A person on the sidewalk,

21

can you show me where on the sidewalk that person

22

was?

23

24
25

He was right here.

(indicating)

What about your side of


the street, by your building?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 147
1

There was nobody.

2
3

There was nobody there?


A

Nobody.

4
5
6

You know for sure or


didn't see them?
A

I know for sure.


Thank you.

MS. ALIZADEH:

9
10

Did you notice a white lady

out there?
A

11

No.
MS. ALIZADEH:

Is it that you didn't

12

notice or you say I looked and there wasn't anybody

13

out there.

14

15
16

I looked.
MS. ALIZADEH:

Nobody out there?

Nobody out there.

17

When the

18

officer exited the car, the vehicle, could you see

19

his face?

20

Yes.

21
22
23

Was there any coloration


to his face?
A

24
25

No, he was like a regular white guy.


MS. WHIRLEY:

FAX 314-241-6750

I didn't hear you.

He had a beard and a mustache.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 148
MS. WHIRLEY:

a mustache.

5
6

11

Huh?

Like a yellow-ish color.


MS. ALIZADEH:

I am just wanting to know

was it like blond, or was it brown or dark?


A

12
13

Like a yellow-ish color.


MS. ALIZADEH:

10

What color was his beard

and mustache.

Yes.
MS. ALIZADEH:

You think he had a beard and

It was a blond color.


MS. ALIZADEH:

14

Blond colored.

Yes.
MS. ALIZADEH:

Was it a full beard, like

15

full beard like this guy kind of has, Number 1, or

16

was it more of a partial beard like the guy in the

17

blue shirt?

18

19
20
21

MS. ALIZADEH:

24

Kind of like goatee and

mustache.
A

22
23

It was like a partial beard.

It wasn't a goatee, it was just


MS. ALIZADEH:

I describe it as a goatee,

I don't know, but it was not the full beard.


A

25

FAX 314-241-6750

Yeah, it wasn't full beard.


MS. WHIRLEY:

Did his face look injured.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 149
1

No.

I have one more question.

When he exited the vehicle, did you

see his lips moving at all, you know, telling Mike

Brown to do anything?

I wasn't paying attention.


That's when you left okay.

I have one

more question.

When you say at the very beginning

10

you said you heard screaming, did it appear that

11

there were two people screaming or was it just one

12

voice you heard.

13

I heard one voice.

14
15

One voice.
A

16
17
18

MS. WHIRLEY:
the screaming was,
A

19
20
21

No.
Can you demonstrate what the

screaming sounded like?


A

It was like -MS. ALIZADEH:

That's going to actually

require he actually raise his voice,

24
25

You couldn't make out what

could you?

MS. WHIRLEY:

22
23

Yes.

MS. WHIRLEY:

I don't know.

That's exactly why I asked

the question.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 150
1

2
3

MS. WHIRLEY:
A

kind of scream.

Like what?

Like an AHHHH kind of scream.


MS. WHIRLEY:

It was like an AHHHH,

Like AHHH?

Yes.

In

regards to the scream, did you hear that only one

time or was it like AHHH, AHHH, AHHH.

Once.

10
11

Huh?
A

Once.

12
13

Once,
A

14

just one.

Yes.
MS. ALIZADEH:

Anyone else.

15

anything that we didn't ask you,

16

remember about that is important?

17

that you

No.
MS. ALIZADEH:

18

Is there

Okay.

When the police talk

19

to you, did you feel that they were respectful or

20

were they rude?

21

22

Respectful.
MS. ALIZADEH:

Did anybody ever get in

23

your face or tell you that you were lying and stop

24

lying?

25

FAX 314-241-6750

No.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 151
MS. ALIZADEH:

2
3

interviews, right?
A

Yes.
MS. WHIRLEY:

And you've had two

Did you talk to anybody in

the apartment complex about what happened?


A

No besides my dad and his girlfriend.


MS. WHIRLEY:

Your dad.

You said you

didn't know, there is a lot of young people I

understand that live in the complex, but you had not

10
11

become friends with any of them?


A

12
13
14

MS. WHIRLEY:

17

20

No.
MS. WHIRLEY:

Or talk to anybody about

what happened?
A

Huh-uh.
MS. WHIRLEY:

18

19

You didn't hang out with

anybody?

15
16

No.

Even when you went back

later to visit with your dad?


A

21

No.
MS. WHIRLEY:

22

Okay.

All right.

(End of the testimony of

23
24

MS. ALIZADEH:

25

Kathi Alizadeh, it is 12:11 p.m.

FAX 314-241-6750

It is October 27th, this is


We just took a

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 152
1

little bit of a break so we could print-out some

transcripts because the grand jurors have asked to

listen to the recorded statement of

that was made to the FBI on September 30th.

have that disc queued, it is about 22 minutes.

were going to try to play that before lunch, we

didn't get to it because we were busy making the

copies.

want lunch.

10

So we
We

You all still want to start that or do you


It is not out there right now.

So go

ahead and start this?

11

The only other thing, and Sheila and I had

12

a discussion about this before now is, she and I are

13

going to kind of wing how we are doing this, after

14

testified and she had come here with

15

who she said was her godson and were

16

in the waiting room here and

17

she did.

testified after

So when we walked

18

out and we were

19

kind of saying goodbye to them and they were getting

20

ready to walk out

21

about how it is too bad there weren't surveillance

22

cameras in the complex.

23

And then

, I made the comment

said that she had video

24

the entire thing on her phone and I said, what

25

portion, what part did you video the whole thing I

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 153
1

said the shooting, you have the shooting taped on

your phone.

phone in the toilet.

And she said yes, but I dropped the

MS. WHIRLEY:

Then I asked her, you know,

where is the phone, thinking we might be able to

recover it with forensic examination.

is in the junk yard.

away.

She got so mad she threw it

MS. ALIZADEH:

10

I've never known about.

11

MS. WHIRLEY:

12

MS. ALIZADEH:

13

She said it

This is information that

Neither have I.
And Sheila has never known

about this, and from my observation of her godson

14

, he was, this was news to him as well

15

because he asked her where is the phone and, you

16

know, he seemed to indicate that he had not heard

17

that information before.

18
19

So I thought it was important that you


know that.

20

MS. WHIRLEY:

21

MS. ALIZADEH:

I agree.
Sheila and I kind of

22

unwittingly became witness to that statement.

23

don't think it is appropriate that we testify as

24

witnesses, but what we discussed is that knowing

25

that there was a statement made like that.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 154
1

If you desire we can bring

back in and question her under oath about whether,

about that and you can ask her whatever questions

you want, but I wanted you to have that information

so that you could make a decision amongst yourselves

about whether you want to have her come back in and

ask her about that.

8
9
10

So you guys can talk about that during


your lunch break and for now we will go ahead and
start the pass out the transcripts.

11

Did she mention was the

12

recorder, was it on when the FBI was there or was it

13

just sitting on her counter?

14

MS. ALIZADEH:

My recollection and this is

15

what you all are going to have to discuss amongst

16

yourselves what she testified to,

17

her if she was wearing the camcorder when the

18

shooting occurred, and she said no.

19

said it was in her house, she said that during the

20

first interview she was in her pajamas when they

21

came.

22

I believe I asked

I think she

She said that.

23

MS. ALIZADEH:

You all are going to have

24

to look at your notes.

25

she said something that maybe I'm wrong about that.

FAX 314-241-6750

I don't want to represent

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 155
1

I did ask her if she had the camera on during the

shooting and she said no.

had it on when she was being interviewed by the

officers, I recall something about that, you all are

going to have to talk amongst yourselves about that.

But whether or not she

So no more questions?
MS. ALIZADEH:

I don't know that I can

answer, I don't want to characterize the witness'

testimony or clarify it because that's something,

10

that will be my interpretation and I don't want to

11

have to do that.

12

there was talk about that if it is helpful, we can

13

go back and, of course, we have the testimony on

14

audio, we also will eventually have a transcript of

15

it as well.

16

I will tell you that I think that

If you want to make a note that once those

17

transcripts are available to me, that I can give

18

them to you and you can go back and look and see

19

exactly what she said in regard to that, all right.

20
21

I'm not being rude, I just need to have


you guys decide that.

22

You ready?

23

(Playing of the audio recording of

24

.)

25

FAX 314-241-6750

MS. WHIRLEY:

We are stopping this

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 156
1

recording of

at one minute and 56

seconds and we will resume after lunch.

October the 27th, 2014.

approximately 33 minutes and some seconds, so we

will resume it after lunch, thank you.

This is

The statement is actually

(Lunch recess taken)


MS. WHIRLEY:

2014.

resume the recording of

It is October the 27th,

Approximately 1:17 p.m.

We are going to
We stopped

10

at about 2156.

It looks like 2158, so it inched up

11

a couple seconds.

12

yet.

13

find when they resumed the conversation.

I don't think they're talking

I'm going to start it and then I'm going to

14

(Resume playing of the audio recording of

15

.)

16

(End of the audio recording of

17
18

(Grand Jury Exhibit Number 55

19

marked for identification.)

20

MS. WHIRLEY:

21

approximately 1:35 p.m.

22

the video recording,

23

statement of

24

earlier today.

25

Exhibit Number 55.

FAX 314-241-6750

It is October 27th, 2014 at


I'm getting ready to play

I'm sorry, the audio recorded


You guys heard from her

It is identified as Grand Jury


There's two transcripts that I

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 157
1

passed out because as she testified, she turned off

the recording and then they started recording again.

I did not know exactly how long her statement is, it

is not very long at all.

MS. ALIZADEH:

So with that -The transcript, they're

both dated August 26th, but the one, the first one

is 9:32.

(Playing of recorded interview of

.)

10

MS. ALIZADEH:

This is Kathi Alizadeh, it

11

is about 2:07.

12

conversation this weekend with

13

had talked about her coming in to complete her

14

testimony today.

15

I said if you can be here by 12:30 that would be

16

great, and here it is ten after 2:00, she's not

17

here.

18

And I told you that I had a


We

I asked her to be here by 1:00 and

I did call the number I have for her,

19

got her answering message and I left her a message

20

to call me about trying to reschedule.

21

have any other live witnesses for today.

22

what you all have told me before, told us,

23

transcripts for two statements that were done by a

24

woman whose already testified woman who has already

25

testified,

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

So I don't
Based upon
I have

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 158
1

There was an interview of her on

August 9th, the day of the incident at 4:00 p.m.

That interview was done by St. Louis County

Detective

seconds.

to you.

would like.

8
9

and lasted two minutes and 23


So I have this transcript I can pass out
You guys can look at that right now if you

And then there's a transcript of an


interview of

that's done on

10

August 16th, 2014 at 11:43, I'm sorry, 11:34 a.m. by

11

Special Agent

12

and Special Agent

, and so this interview was 24 minutes

13

and 26 seconds so I will pass those transcripts out

14

to you.

15

If you guys just want to take the rest, I

16

know we're breaking at 2:30 today.

17

want to take the rest of that time to review those

18

transcripts.

19

those statements, those prior statements, we can

20

play those at another time, or if you have a need to

21

review

22

reviewed her, the transcripts of her prior

23

statements, we can get that testimony, either play

24

it back audio wise or we can get you transcripts of

25

those as well.

FAX 314-241-6750

So if you guys

And then if you have any need to hear

testimony after having

All right.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 159
So at this time we'll cease the recording

probably.

at this time we'll just call the record quit for you

all to review this until it is time to go, all

right.

We plan on recessing by 2:30 today.

So

(End of Grand Jury Volume XVI.)

8
9

10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 160
1

State of Missouri

4
5

SS.

County of St. Louis


I,

a Licensed Certified Court

Reporter by the Supreme Court in and for the State

of Missouri, duly commissioned, qualified and

authorized to administer oaths and to certify to

depositions, do hereby certify that pursuant to

10

Notice in the civil cause now pending and

11

undetermined in the County of St. Louis, State of

12

Missouri.

13

The said witness, being of sound mind and being

14

by the grand jury first carefully examined and duly

15

cautioned and sworn to testify to the truth, the

16

whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the case

17

aforesaid, thereupon testified as is shown in the

18

foregoing transcript, said testimony being by me

19

reported in shorthand and caused to be transcribed

20

into typewriting, and that the foregoing page

21

correctly sets forth the testimony of the

22

aforementioned witness, together with the questions

23

propounded by counsel and grand jurors thereto, and

24

is in all respects a full,

25

complete transcript of the questions propounded to

FAX 314-241-6750

true,

correct and

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 161
1

and the answers given by said witness.

I further certify that the foregoing pages

contain a true and accurate reproduction of the

proceedings.

I further certify that I am not of counselor

attorney for either of the parties to said suit, not

related to nor interested in any of the parties or

their attorneys.

10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 162
1

COURT MEMO

2
3
4

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

6
7

CERTIFICATE OF OFFICER AND

STATEMENT OF DEPOSITION CHARGES

10
11

DEPOSITION OF Grand Jury Volume XVI

12
13

10/27/2014

14

Name and address of person or firm having custody of

15

the original transcript:

16
17

St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney's Office

18

100 S. Central Ave., 2nd Floor

19

Clayton, MO 63105

20
21
22
23
24
25

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014

Page 163
1

ORIGINAL TRANSCRIPT TAXED IN FAVOR OF:

St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney's Office

100 S. Central Ave., 2nd Floor

Clayton, MO 63105

Total:

8
9

10
11

12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVI

October 27,2014
Page 164

Upon delivery of transcripts, the above

charges had not been paid.

that all charges will be paid in the normal course

of business.

GORE PERRY GATEWAY & LIPA REPORTING COMPANY

515 Olive street, Suite 700

st. Louis, Missouri 63101

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set

STATEMENT OF DEPOSITION CHARGES

10

my hand and seal on this

11

Commission expires

It is anticipated

day of

12

13

Notary Public

14

15
16
17
18
19
20
21

22
23
24

25

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

Case: State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XVII


Date: October 28, 2014

This transcript is printed on 100% recycled paper

515 Olive Street, Suite 300


St. Louis, MO 63101
(314) 241-6750
1-800-878-6750
Fax: (314) 241-5070
Email: schedule@goreperry.com
Internet: < <www.goreperry.com >>

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 1

STATE OF MISSOURI

VS.

DARREN WILSON

GRAND JURY

October 28, 2014

VOLUME XVII

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 2
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF ST. LOUIS COUNTY

STATE OF MISSOURI

STATE OF MISSOURI

5
6

vs.

DARREN WILSON

10
11

12

The following is a hearing before the Grand

13

Jury of St. Louis County, at the offices of St.

14

Louis County Prosecuting Attorney's Office, 100

15

South Central Avenue, in the City of Clayton, State

16

of Missouri, on the 28th day of October, 2014,

17

before XXXXXXXXXXXXXX.

18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 3
1

APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:

2
3

FOR THE STATE:

Ms. Kathi Alizadeh & Ms. Sheila Whirley

Assistant Prosecuting Attorneys for St. Louis

County

100 South Central Avenue, 2nd Floor

Clayton, MO 63105

(314)

615-2600

10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 5
GRAND JURY HEARING VOLUME XVII

MS. WHIRLEY:

Good morning.

Today is

October 28th, it is approximately 8:39 a.m.

This is

Sheila Whirley present, and also the 12 grand jurors

are here and XXXXXXX, the court reporter, is here.

Kathi Alizadeh is here, but has stepped out

momentarily.

with the statement of

transcripts.

We are going to start out the morning


You have the

It is on Grand Jury Exhibit Number 49.

10

(Grand Jury Exhibit Number 49


marked for identification.)

11

12

MS. WHIRLEY:

I will play approximately 20

13

something minutes.

14

goes 40 something minutes.

15

on her to come that's why we are going to go ahead

16

and do the statements.

17

at 8:30.

18

had not arrived before we came in this morning.

19

we are still waiting on her.

20

will start the morning.

21

introduction if you can pause the recording.

22

We are actually waiting

She was supposed to be here

Kathi is going to check on that and she


So

So that's the way we

XXXXXXX, with that bit of an

(This is the playing of the interview of

23

.)

24
25

She has another statement that

MS. WHIRLEY:
first statement by

FAX 314-241-6750

All right.

That was the


We have another

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 6
1

statement by

her way.

she's on her way.

approximately 42 minutes.

interview that was conducted on September the 25th

of 2014.

actual recording is on Grand Jury Exhibit Number 36,

and we will play that as soon as the transcripts are

distributed.

10
11

I understand she is on

There was a mixup with transportation, but


This one is, I think,
And it was an FBI

I'm passing out the transcripts.

The

(Playing of the second interview of


.)

12

MS. WHIRLEY:

That concludes the second

13

interview of

We will take a break,

14

you probably need one and then we'll start with her

15

testimony when we resume.

16
17

of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to

18

testify the truth, the whole truth, and

19

nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid,

20

deposes and says in reply to oral

21

interrogatories, propounded as follows, to-wit:

22
23
24
25

EXAMINATION
BY MS. WHIRLEY:
Q

I'm Sheila Whirley and these are the 12

grand jurors.

FAX 314-241-6750

You met Kathi Alizadeh and XXXXXX, the


Gore Perry Reporting and Video
314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 7
1

court reporter, sits next to you.


Please introduce yourself to the

2
3

grand jurors and spell your name for us?

Hi.

My name is

Okay.

, last

name

, you know why we're here,

the shooting of Michael Brown.

Brown?

No,

I didn't know him.

Did you know Michael

I seen his cousin,

10

I think that's the one that has the dreads.

11

him a couple times, but I didn't know him.

12

I seen

We're going to ask you to speak up.

13

generally stand back here so you and I can have a

14

conversation loud enough for everybody to hear,

15

okay?

16

Okay.

17

And that microphone is not going to help

18

you be louder, so you are going to have to raise

19

your voice, okay?

20

I understand what you said about

21

Michael and the person that was with him, had you

22

seen Michael Brown before that day?

23

Probably once.

24

Okay.

25

When you saw him, did you talk to

him or anything?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 8
1

No, we didn't talk or anything.

You lived in Canfield Green Apartments

back on August 9th of 2014; is that correct?

Yes, ma'am.

All right.

There you go.

All right.

So

how long did you live there?

Since Valentine's Day.

So February 14th of that year?

Yes.

10

Of this year.

Show us on the map, you see

11

that map, that's Grand Jury Exhibit Number 25 and

12

there's a laser pointer right near you somewhere.

13

You know how to use it, there's a little button,

14

there you go.

15

should be a red light if you push.

And you push that button down, there

16

To show where I live?

17

I want you to show us where you lived on

18

August 9th, 2014.

I don't see the red light.

19

I'm trying to recognize the map.

20

Get oriented to the map.

21

help you out?

22
23

So does the map

here.

Yeah,

I see it, my apartment is right

(indicating)

24

So it is like

25

Yes.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 9
1

All right.

Now, tell us what you did that

morning, what time did you wake up that Saturday

morning?

That morning I woke up at probably, urn,

like 9:00.

boyfriend, the mother of his kids to bring his child

over that day.

I was supposed to be expecting my

Was your boyfriend there with you?

No, he was at work.

10

Okay.

11
12

So when you, did the girlfriend

bring the child over?


A

She had brought him over later.

13

whole bunch of errands to do,

14

library to return a movie.

15
16

Okay.

I had a

I had to go to the

You went to the library.

What

library did you guy to?

17

18

Did you walk or drive?

19

I caught the bus up there, but I didn't

20

have no cash,

I had to walk back.

21

Was it a pretty long walk?

22

Uh-huh.

23

Okay.

24
25

So what time were you walking back

from the library?


A

FAX 314-241-6750

Urn,

I was coming down Canfield probably at

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 10
1

about 12:20, something like that.

Noon-ish?

Yeah.

And on this map,

can you tell that West

Florissant is over here?

Yes.

And were you walking from West Florissant?

Yes, ma'am.

And tell us where you were walking when

10

you first noticed something going on with Michael

11

Brown?

12

Uh,

I was probably about right here by

13

these trees.

14

Okay.

15

Because I had paused,

16

(indicating)

I saw a police car

sitting over here.

17

You've got to talk a little louder.

18

I'm sorry.

Sitting near the lease office

19

with the lights on, you usually don't see a police

20

car just sitting in Canfield.

21
22

Okay.

Where is leasing office, do you see

that on the map?

23

Right here.

24

Okay.

25

FAX 314-241-6750

(indicating)

That's the leasing office.

MS. ALIZADEH:

Could you point at it again

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 11
1

because I was just looking down.

I'm sorry.

It is right here.

(indicating)

(By Ms. Alizadeh)

Yes, ma'am.

All right.

Building I?

So you pause in that area and

you said you saw a police car with its lights on?

Yes.

Q
A

Q
A

13

of it.
Q
A

Q
A

19

vehicle was it?

20
21

It was like the big,

kind,

like

I don't know what

suv.

22

Okay.

23

A white.

24

But it was a marked police car?

25

Yes.

FAX 314-241-6750

What color?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 12
Q

Okay.

Yes.

Then what?

Urn, so I paused like right about here,

You could see that from Building 1

area?

right by these trees just to see what was going on

because I saw the police car had backed up and he

like backed up at a slant, like to the left so that

he ended up in the middle of the street.

10

So all the cars that was next to me

11

like backed up right here was just sitting there.

12

sat there to just to try to see what is going on.

13
14

Did you see the car when it backed up or

when you first noticed it had backed up?

15

No, when I first noticed it was straight.

16

The car was just straight.

It was sitting right

17

there, the car was facing towards West Florissant.

18

Okay.

19

There was the two boys, they were like

20

behind the car kind of like, like if he would of

21

continued to talk to them the way they was walking,

22

he would of had to back up to follow them.

23

like walking away from his car.

24

a slant going to the left to try to like block them

25

off.

FAX 314-241-6750

They was

So he backed up at

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 13
1

2
3

Okay.

Can you describe the two boys that

were walking that he backed up?


A

Yeah, there was a big, really big,

didn't know he was that young.

was in his 20s and his friend was real skinny with

dreads.

Do you recall what the big guy had on?

I remember he had on a white T-shirt that

He looked like he

He looked really young.

was about it, like tan pants.

10

Was he wearing anything on his head?

11

He had a red hat on.

12

Okay.

13

A red Cardinals hat.

14

A Cardinals cap?

15

Uh-huh.

16

And then the guy, you said he had dreads

17

and he was smaller?

18

Yes.

19

Do you recall what he was wearing?

20

Looked like he had on a gray,

21

gray shirt.

22

Okay.

23

24
25

like a dark,

don't remember what kind of pants or

anything.
Q

FAX 314-241-6750

Okay.

And you said you had,

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

you had seen

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 14
1

the smaller guy before?

Yeah,

But not the big guy?

No.

We know today that the big guy is Michael

I had seen him before.

Brown, correct?

Yes.

Okay.

Yes.

10

So when the car back-back, did it

And that's who you saw?

11

back-back like hurriedly or slow or what fashion did

12

the car back-back?

13
14

A
like.

15
16

It was kind of like a fast,

it was quick

I don't know how to explain it.


Q

Okay.

That's fine.

Did it appear to

touch the two guys that it back toward?

17

It looked like it did.

I'm not saying

18

that it did, but the way they jump back, like they

19

were in shock like.

20
21

back towards jump back?

22
23
24
25

So you saw the two people that the car

Yeah,

Okay.

kind of like what are you doing, you

know.
Now, we read and heard your

recorded statements because you made two statements

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 15
1

both to the FBI and the Department of Justice?

Yes.

Correct?

Yes.

And you mention that your vision was

somewhat impaired?

Yes.

As far as you needing corrective glasses

or lenses?

10

Yes.

11

On that day, did you have what you needed

12

to make your vision very good?

13

No.

14

How would you rate your vision that day?

15

Urn,

Okay.

16

from one to ten,

I would say like

five.

17

So like me.

I could probably read

18

from here to Forsyth without glasses, but up close I

19

cannot see anything, okay.

20

better than up close vision?

So was your long vision

21

Urn,

22

Okay.

24

Yes.

25

Are you pretty confident in what you saw

23

I'm nearsighted,

so I can't see far.

You need glasses to help you to see

far?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 16
1

that day because how far would you say you were

away?

it, where were you?

5
6

Let's look at that again.

Uh, probably like right there.

(indicating)
Okay.

About right here.

About right here.

Okay.

10

yards,

11

12

really off.

13

17

(indicating)

Anyway to judge that in feet or

I'm not good at that, but if you can tell us?


I'm not certain.

Okay.

I would probably be

We got kind of a visual picture of

the map that you showed us.

15
16

And where were

they when you first noticed them?

14

When you first saw

Am I getting too close?

No.
Q

(By Ms. Whirley)

You felt that you were

pretty secure in what you were looking at?

18

Yes.

19

Even though you need contacts?

20

It is not that bad.

21
22
23
24
25

I can see the big

vehicle and how he pulled back like that.


Q

Okay,

just checking.

How about your

hearing?
A

I couldn't really hear much of anything

they were saying, there was a lot of other stuff

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 17
1

going on.

You have good hearing?

My hearing is fine.

You don't need assistance to hear well or

anything?

No.

Okay.

So they back-back, the officer

back-back, it looks like they hit them because they

jump a little bit and look perturbed and look like,

10
11

hey, what are you doing, and then what?


A

Well, the big dude, Michael Brown, like he

12

got mad kind of, he just went immediately to the

13

driver's window and they got into it.

14

how it started.

15

window and it looked like they was fighting.

16
17

Okay.

I don't know

I just know he went around to the

Did the little guy seem to be

helping?

18

No.

19

Did you notice him?

20

He was standing there for a while, but

21
22
23
24
25

once they started fighting, he just ran.


Q

Was he next to Michael Brown on the same

side of the car?


A

Yeah, he was on the same side of the car

still at the back of it.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 18
1

They're at the driver's side of the car

since they were fighting?

Yes, ma'am.

Did it look like anybody else was in the

5
6
7

car with the officer?


A

No,

I couldn't tell if anyone else was

next to the car.


Q

You never saw anybody else get out or

anything like that?

10

No.

11

Now, describe for us why it looked like

12

they were fighting, what did you see?

13

Urn, it was like his arms.

14

You have to tell us whose arms?

15

I'm sorry, Mike's arms are reaching into

16

the car.

It looked like some type of struggle cause

17

he was like bobbing in and out like they were doing

18

something.

19

was going on, what they were doing, but his actions

20

looked like there was some type of fight.

Like I said,

I couldn't exactly see what

21

Could you see the officer's arms?

22

Not really.

23

the window.

24

Okay.

25

Yeah.

FAX 314-241-6750

His body was kind of blocking

And you could just see Mike's arms?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 19
1

So you're standing on this side?

Yes.

And the car is over here?

Yeah, about.

Facing West Florissant?

So it was a little farther,

there.

9
10

like right

So would you have been closer, would your

view have been closer to the passenger side of the


car or the driver's side of the car?

11

The driver's side.

12

Okay.

13

It was facing towards West Florissant and

Because the car was going

14

then he backed like a slant going to the left, like

15

right in the middle of the street almost.

16

why the cars couldn't go through, he was right in

17

the middle of the street.

18

What other cars did you notice?

19

I saw, it was like a black van.

That's

I don't

20

know models of cars, but right beside me there was a

21

black van, as far as behind that going down,

22

sure.

I'm not

23

Okay.

24

Urn, after that I see they were struggling

25

What did you see after that?

in the window for about,

FAX 314-241-6750

it was not that long, a

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 20
1

couple seconds and then I heard the first gunshot.

And that's like, you know,

attention, people started paying attention after

that.

kind of got everybody's

How do you know that people started paying

attention after that?

Because his friend,

after he ran,

you

know, he just running around looking at stuff.

People outside on their porches,

you know, because

10

you hear gunshot over there, especially when it is

11

like right in the middle of everything, so everybody

12

could hear it.

13

their windows.

You know, people start looking out

14

You notice this yourself?

15

Yes, ma'am.

16

You are kind of looking around at the

17

scene.

18

police officer constantly?

19
20

You weren't just focused directly on the

Yeah, that's another thing that throws off

some of my details, there's so much going on.

21

Okay.

22

Like even the lady in the car that was

23

beside me,

24

looking, everybody just started to pay attention to

25

it.

FAX 314-241-6750

she was just like, you know,

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

just

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 21
1

Did you talk to anybody while this is

going on?

I was by myself,

Nobody was yelling out anything to you?

Not until the rest of the shots fired,

6
7

8
9

I didn't talk to anybody.

that's when everybody went crazy.


Q

The first shot, was the officer in the car

when that shot occurred?


A

Yes, the officer was still in the car.

10

Michael Brown was still in the window when I heard

11

the first shot.

12

Tell us what happened next?

13

After that, he kind of backed up and just

14
15
16

looked down at himself.


Q

Show us,

if you wouldn't mind

demonstrating?

17

Like, stand up.

18

Like he backed up and was looking at

19
20

himself?
A

Okay.

So I heard the first shot and he

21

was just like, his hands was in the car and after

22

that he backed up like, trying to check hisself

23

making sure he wasn't hurt or anything.

24
25

Could you see if he was injured from your

vantage point?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 22
1

No.

You couldn't tell one way or the other?

No.

Okay.

Urn, then he kind of stepped back a little

And then what?

bit.

sounded metal.

assume was it was a gun.

10

I did see something fallon the ground, it

So, of course, the first thing I

Okay.

You thought that somebody had a gun

that fell?
A

12

gun.

13

Michael Brown?

14

Yeah.

15

Go ahead.

16

So the officer got out of the car, you

17

know.
Q

19

Uh-huh.

21
22

Brown or anyone else retrieved that object?


A

I didn't see anybody pick it up because at

23

that point was another point when I was looking

24

around.

25

FAX 314-241-6750

Okay.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 23
1

2
3

When I did look back, that's when the

officer had the gun, he was pointing it at him.


Q

Did you notice if that object that you

thought that fell on the ground was still on the

ground?

It wasn't.

It wasn't there any more?

No.

Okay.

10

Yes, ma'am.

11

Okay.

You did notice that?

So the officer you said at that

12

point when you saw the officer again he was out of

13

the car?

14

Yes.

15

And what was the officer doing?

16

He was like just standing with the gun

17

facing him and then like.

18

Show us how he had the gun, the stance?

19

He was just like, you know, officer, just

20

standing like this.

21

shoot him, like he did something.

22

Okay.

Like he was, you know, going to

Where was he though and maybe I

23

missed something.

24

off, Michael Brown checked himself out, was acting

25

like he was looking at himself.

FAX 314-241-6750

Let's go back to the shot went

Then where did

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 24
1

Michael Brown go?

He backed up a few steps.

At first he

tried to run, at first when -- when he first looked

at hisself he tried to run.

Where was he running to though?

Back towards the back of Canfield, like

back where his friend ran right there.

So east on Canfield?

Yeah, the car was about right here, he ran

10

to about right here.

11
12

(indicating)

How did he get around the car, did he just

go from the back of the car?

13

He was like next to it so he didn't have

14

to, you know, there was too much turning to go down

15

the street.

16

Okay.

Yeah, he made a couple little steps like a

17
18

And you said at first he tried to

run?

19

quick sprint, nothing more than like five to seven

20

steps.

21

And then what?

22

He didn't get that far.

And then he

23

turned around, the officer had the gun pointed at

24

him and then you just heard the rest of the shots.

25

FAX 314-241-6750

Let me ask something though.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

Did the

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 25
1

officer like pursue him when he was running away?

No,

The officer just got out of the car?

Yes,

I didn't see him run after him.

I saw him standing there.

see him get out of the car.

Okay.

You know,

8
9

10

I didn't

certain things I saw and certain

things I didn't see.


Q

But when you caught it again, Michael

Brown had turned around?

11

Yes.

12

Did you see him turn around?

13

Yes.

14

Can you show us how he did that?

15

Just.

16

So like run that way,

17
18

(indicating)
I

mean,

or walk that

way of however he was doing it?


A

Okay.

He just turned around like, you

19

know, he put his arms about shoulder length and just

20

stopped, like looking at him.

21

when I heard the rest of the shots.

22

first two,

23

looked at him,

I didn't see them.

24

Okay.

25

Yes.

FAX 314-241-6750

And then, urn, that's


I heard the

And then when I

I saw him still shooting him.


So you heard two shots?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 26
1

separate shots and then a pause?

As part of this set of shots or two

No, it was all in a set.

row like that.

It was like in a

(indicating)

Okay.

The first two of them I didn't see.

wasn't looking.

The rest of them I was looking

straight at him and I saw the actual shots going

into him.
Q

11

him?

12

Yes.

13

How could you tell, what was it looking

I mean,

14
15

like?
I can't tell, you know,

I can't

16

really tell.

I'm just saying based on him pointing

17

the gun at him and hearing all the pops and seeing

18

the smoke coming off his gun.

19

You saw the smoke?

20

Yeah,

21

I saw the smoke and you could smell

it like, it was like firecrackers almost.

22

You could smell it from where you were?

23

Yes.

24

Was it a windy day?

25

I don't remember.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 27
1

Was his arms up the way you showed us when

he was being shot?

Yes, about, like his palms were out facing

forward, they were about at his ears,

shoulders, about like that.

What did that mean to you to have

That meant surrender, that meant take me

to jail.

10

You thought he was surrendering?

11

Yeah.

12

Did you ever see him rush the officer

13

like, you know what I mean by rush?

14

Yeah, like he was mad.

15

Was he running toward the officer or

16

charge him?

17

I didn't see that.

18

Okay.

19

like

your arms like that?

Okay.

I'd say,

Did you ever hear anybody ever say

anything?

20

As soon as the shots got fired,

21

said, I was up here by these trees,

22

mailbox.

23

of the shots got fired.

24

him was running around, he was running.

25

here,

I was behind a

I was standing right there after the rest

I guess.

FAX 314-241-6750

like I

His friend that was with


He was like

I don't know what he was doing.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

He

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 28
1

was standing with some dudes, he started running

around the complex, they shot him, they shot my home

boy, he didn't even deserve that.

It was the police that killed him, it

was the police that killed him.

That is what got

the big crowd out there real fast.


Q

was fired.
9

It sounded about like six.

Q
A

13

Yes.

15

He fell face forward.

There wasn't no

16

pause on his knees or nothing, it was just straight

17

down.

18

(indicating)

You didn't see him go down on his knees

19

and then fall,

20

facedown?

it was just from standing to

21

Yeah.

22

Okay.

23

The officer walked up to his body and was

And then what did the officer do?

24

standing over him like he was going to get back up.

25

He was just looking at him like,

FAX 314-241-6750

just looking down

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 29
1

at him like,

I don't know.

Did the officer still have his weapon in

his hand?

He still had his weapon in his hand.

Did you notice what he was doing with the

weapon or if he was doing anything?

No,

I just know he still had the gun right

at his side in his hand.

at him,

He was just looking down

just like walking around him, you know,

10

like walking a circle around him like.

11

know,

12
13

I don't

it was just strange.


Q

So he didn't holster the weapon at that

point after Michael Brown was down?

14

No.

15

Okay.

16

on the map?

17

Show me where you saw the body fall

It was probably like right here.

18

right there, went a couple steps and fell.

19

(indicating)

20
21
22

just

MS. ALIZADEH:
A

Like

Can you do that again?

About right here is where his body was.

(indicating)

23

24

By this time I was over here.

25

Okay.

FAX 314-241-6750

(By Ms. Whirley) Where were you again?

What did you do after the body

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 30
1

fell?

I ran in the house.

Which way did you go home?

Back this way.

Okay.

And again,

you live in building?

So you went back this way?

(indicating)

Yes.

10

Okay.

Did you see, at the time of the

11

shooting, were there any other police vehicles

12

there?

13

No, when he first got shot he was laying

14

there I seen another police car pull up probably

15

about ten minutes later.

16

the police car pulled up.

17

cars out there, they eventually,

18

the cop that shot him to go home because he wasn't

19

out there after a couple of minutes.

20
21

It wasn't that long after


So there was two police
I guess they told

Did that car that showed up, did it have

its head bar lights on too?

22

Yes.

23

Did you talk to any police officers or any

24
25

investigators that day?


A

FAX 314-241-6750

No.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 31
1

How did you come to talk to the

investigators?

Honestly?

Honestly.

I was at home enjoying myself watching a

movie and there's a knock on the door, and two big

guys with FBI things on.

the door,

the door.

I told my boyfriend to get

I don't want to talk to anybody, go get

10

So he answered the doors and says, I

11

was at work on that day, but my girlfriend was here

12

and saw the whole thing so.

13

inside?

14

was just say no.

15

FBI agent.

16
17

Oh, really, can we come

I couldn't say no, the first thing he said


So figure you can't say no to an

So, yeah, that's how it went.


Okay.

So had you told your boyfriend

about what happened that day?

18

Yeah,

I told him because his son was

19

coming over.

When she finally did get there, she

20

said, did you know somebody got shot?

21

yeah,

I was like,

I was just out there.

22

Did you tell her what happened too?

23

No,

24

Okay.

25

He's one.

FAX 314-241-6750

I don't like her.

We don't talk.

How old is the little boy?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 32
1
2

Okay.

All right.

But you did share with

your boyfriend?

Yeah.

All right.

Because I never,

get killed.

but I've never seen nothing like that, nobody's life

get taken.

I've never seen anybody

I've seen police brutality firsthand,

Did you think this was police brutality?

10

Honestly, to me it looked like murder.

11

I've seen the Ferguson police do some really awful

12

things.

13

them for them coming into my house and basically

14

beating me up.

I've personally myself filed cases against

15

Okay.

Tell us about that?

16

Okay.

So my boyfriend had got into it

17

with his son's mom.

18

Yeah, baby momma.

19

Yeah.

20

Go ahead, we know about it.

21

He got into it with her.

The two of them

22

were fighting and arguing.

23

She got off the bus with me so, you know, me and

24

her, why are you getting off the bus and going to my

25

house.

FAX 314-241-6750

I had just got off work.

It is my son's birthday, you know,

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

I'm just

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 33
1

trying to get stuff for him, don't worry about it.

So she walked in the house, they get into it.

didn't tell you could come over here.

So basically they started fighting,

he called the police on her.

When the police

arrived, which was not that, it was like two minutes

later, like they was literally parked down the

street.

doorway.

When they arrived he was standing in the

10

They walked straight up to him, they

11

didn't ask questions, they grabbed him, put him in

12

cuffs, told him to get on his knees.

13

going to get on my knees when you're twisting my arm

14

up in the air.

15

Like how am I

They pushing his face all up on the

16

wall.

Me and her are in there crying, he didn't do

17

nothing, he's the one that called you.

18

him outside.

19

They dragged

She was getting ready to leave.

20

her son, he wasn't even one at this time.

21

where was he.

22

stroller, still on the porch.

23

outside, snow on the ground.

24
25

So

He was,

He was sitting on the porch in his


It was freezing

So they close the front door, left


him out there on the porch after they dragged

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 34
1

down the steps.

So they had me and her, and they sat

her on the couch.

it is a walk-around bar in the kitchen.

around the bar in the kitchen,

y'all doing in my house, why you doing my boyfriend

like that.

10

So I come

I'm like, what are

He's the one that called y'all.


Like don't you understand, we had

I come out of the kitchen because

nothing to do with this, we are trying to remove her


because we live here.

11

He was like the B word, don't say

12

nothing to me, this has nothing to do with you, this

13

is a police matter now.

14

They called you the B word?

15

Yes.

The Canfield security officer, he

16

came in, come on man, these are kids.

Don't do them

17

like that.

18

matter, we're taking over this investigation and

19

stuff like that.

20

kids.

21

here.

You shut up because this is a police

What investigation.

These are

They called you for this girl that don't live

22

So I'm like yelling at him, yes,

23

did get mad.

24

my name is on the lease.

25

do with this.

FAX 314-241-6750

I started yelling at him.

I'm like,

I didn't have nothing to

Why y'all in my house, you tearing it

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 35
1

up and all of this.

Okay.

You don't know how to reason,

somebody come put her in cuffs.

This big huge

officer came and put the cuffs on me.

allover my back and he got cuffs like this, and

there was cuts all around my wrist.

on my body and then they let her go.

momma go.

He kicked me

I had bruises
They let the

She started crying my baby's in the snow.

She took the baby?

10

She took the baby and walked down the

11

street.

They put my boyfriend in the cop car.

12

I'm in handcuffs walking around the house, so I walk

13

outside.

14

Don't you love how they just like to wander around

15

like the walking dead.

Where's she going.

16

So

Oh, there she is.

I'm out there like, where's my

17

boyfriend, looking in the police car and stuff.

18

they come out there, he put me in the car and I'm

19

like, what am I going to jail for.

20

We search your name, you probably

21

have a traffic ticket.

22

no car.

23

down there.

24
25

So

I don't even drive,

I have

Well, we're going to find out when we get

I get down there, they say I have a


Metro ticket for the MetroLink.

FAX 314-241-6750

They kept me in

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014


Page 36

there,

my store at 9:00 in the morning.

there until 2:00 p.m.

like 3:00 in the morning.

I was a manager at this time.

I had to open

They kept me in

They let my boyfriend out at


Well, he called them.

Now, was this officer, you know the

officer who is involved in this case, Darren Wilson,

correct?

Yes.

Was he involved in any of this that

10

happened with you?

11

No,

12

It was another one?

13

Big guy with a mustache.

14

Had you ever had any type of altercation

15

it was another dude.

with Darren Wilson as a police officer?

16

No.

17

How long ago did this happen to you?

18

Urn, that was probably like March and we

19

had been trying to get some type of justice up until

20

basically this.

21

had everything on tape,

22

he had taped that he sent to the landlord.

23

like,

24

this to court or sue Ferguson, he's telling her all

25

of this.

The security officer at Canfield


like he recorded everything

you need to do something.

FAX 314-241-6750

He was

You need to take

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 37
1
2

you tape any of this --

6
7

8
9

So, in your opinion, you mention tape, did

No.

shooting?
At that time I didn't have a phone that

could record.
Do you know anybody who has a tape of the

actual shooting?
I saw a girl standing out there.

It was

10

about that time when he was out of the car, she was

11

recording.

12

but one of the officers took her phone.

She could have got most of the shooting,

13

How do you know that?

14

I was standing there in the crowd at that

15

point.

16

his body was still laying out there.

This was like 20 minutes after the shooting,

17

You saw an officer take her phone?

18

Yeah, this was after I ran in house.

19

put my bags down from the library,

20

basically out there walking and, you know, mingling

21

around with all the people outside.

22

before I even went in the house,

23

like, she was standing like right here.

24

(indicating)

25

FAX 314-241-6750

I was just

I saw her

she was standing

Okay.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 38
1

Her house is right here.

She was standing

on her porch like over there.

Do you know her name?

I don't know her.

Okay.

That was my first time seeing a lot of

these people.

But I saw her, she was like,

I got

the whole thing, she's standing there like, yeah,

got you on camera too.

He came over and took her

10

phone.

11

Was it a Ferguson office?

12

It was a Ferguson officer.

13

You know the difference between Ferguson

14

and County?

15

And the County, yeah, it was Ferguson.

16

It was an Ferguson officer?

17

Yeah.

18

Okay.

One second.

So based on your

19

knowledge of what's going on in the community, how

20

would you describe the relationship between the

21

police and the residence there in Canfield Green.

22

From every instance I've been involved

23

with the police,

24

any record.

25

or brutalized.

FAX 314-241-6750

I'm not a criminal.

I don't have

I don't have any reason to be arrested


A lot of people that I know over

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 39
1

there is the same way.

What I see when the police come, it

is like instant panic from people.

who called them, why would you call them over here.

We don't need them to solve this problem, you just

brought more trouble into the area and stuff like

that.

8
9

And I just see like,


my daddy get beat by the police,

You know, like

I mean,

I seen

I've seen friends

10

of mine will be out, you know, shopping and someone

11

told them we stole something and just get followed

12

by the police cars.

13

think he deserves to get killed like that.

14

just kind of proves my whole image of what I thought

15

of the police.

I never seen, you know,

16

Which is what?

17

They abuse their authority to me.

18

Now, in one of your statements you

I don't
And that

19

describe Michael Brown as looking scared when he

20

turned around.

Do you recall that?

21

Yes.

22

Explain to us what you mean by that.

23

couldn't actually see his face,

could you?

24

No,

25

What did you mean he looked scared?

FAX 314-241-6750

You

I couldn't see his face.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 40
1

2
3

4
5

I mean, you know, when you see a really

big dude just kind of cowering.


Q

Like stand up for us, demonstrate

cowering.
A

Okay.

If you stop and you are looking at

someone and you're, you know,

I'm all right, you know.

know how to explain, but when I see a big dude like

that kind of looking like he's afraid,

10

it is cool, you know,

And, you know,

I don't

like he's

like trembling like a child kind of.

11

Do it look like he was trembling?

12

Yeah

13

From that distance?

14

Yeah, you know, the way his hands was,

15

they was moving or something.

16

scared to me, he looked scared.

17

He was just like

It did not look to you that he was trying

18

to come at the officer when he was cowering or

19

moving his hands?

20

No.

21

When Michael Brown fell to the ground, did

22

the officer stop shooting?

23

Yes,

24

You didn't hear any more shots.

25

I didn't hear any more mots.


Did you

hear any shots when Michael Brown, after that first

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 41
1

shot and Michael Brown fled from the car before he

turned around, did you hear any shots?

Like when he was running?

Yes.

I don't remember.

Okay.

I don't know if I've asked you this

already, but when you said there was one shot was in

the police car, did it appear that Michael Brown was

shot?

10
11

You said he looked at himself, but you

couldn't tell if he was shot or not?


A

I couldn't tell if he was shot.

He just

12

looked at hisself, like he was checking to see, like

13

he didn't know hisself.

14

15
16

MS. WHIRLEY:
right now.

17
18

Okay.

Kathi?
MS. ALIZADEH:

I don't have anything else

Yeah.

(By Ms. Alizadeh)

So I'm going to ask you

19

a few more questions just to clarify a few things

20

and you're killing the court reporter because you

21

talk so fast.

22

I'm sorry,

I work at a call center.

23

I know you were getting excited.

24

really sorry that you had those experiences.

25

think that Officer Wilson, do you hold him

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

And I'm
Do you

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 42
1

accountable for the bad behavior that you've

experienced or witnessed or that you are aware of

other Ferguson officers?

No,

I don't hold him accountable really.

I think, you know, like I say with authorities,

think he just got beside himself.

it turned into, you know,

you do this, you listen to me, you have an attitude.

And then it turned into him just being frustrated,

10
11

Like, you know,

I'm going to tell you kids

that's what it seemed like.


Q

Okay.

What I want to make sure,

12

and because this grand jury is going to consider

13

whether or not to indict the police officer for a

14

crime.

15

so that they can decide that, and I know that you

16

having had unpleasant or, you know, very bad

17

experiences with police officers, you know, it gives

18

you a bad impression of police officers I imagine.

19

And they're examining what happened that day

But, you know, they need just to

20

relate what you saw today.

They can only consider,

21

not that they can't consider other things, do you

22

know what I'm saying?

23

What I saw, not what I heard.

24

Right.

25

And I want to make sure that we're

not bringing all bad police officers behavior into

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 43
1

this picture.

Right.

And you saw what you saw that day and you

have an opinion about what you saw that day and

that's fine and that's what we're interested in,

okay?

Yes.

So when you said you were walking back

from the library and you first saw the two boys and

10

I just wanted to clarify, you said that maybe you

11

had seen him once before, were you talking about the

12

littler guy or Michael Brown?

13

The littler one.

14

The littler one?

15

Yes.

16

In what setting have you seen him before?

17

One of the little community stores up the

18
19
20
21

street.
Q

Okay.

So you recognized him as having

seen him up at one of the convenience stores?


A

Seeing him up close.

22

pictures of his face up close,

23

his structure.

24
25

Actually seeing
I recognized that was

So from where you were standing initially,

which was somewhere around here; is that right?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 44
1

(indicating)

4
5

(Nods head.)
And the boys were initially down about

here or where were the boys when you first saw them?
A

They were about right here.

right there.

I was like

(indicating)

And you were about right here?

(indicating)

Yes.

10

So from that distance you could see enough

11

of the smaller boy's facial features to realize that

12

you recognized him?

13

Yes.

14

And so now, we know, did you say this

15

Building 1 is the leasing office,

correct?

16

Yes.

17

And you said that you first saw the

18

officer's car by the leasing office and I want to

19

make sure we're clarifying here, was his car always

20

on Canfield Drive when you saw it or was there ever

21

a time when his car was up here on Coppercreek Road?

22

No, it was always on Canfield.

23

Okay.

24

The closer it got to pulling in somewhere

25

was when I first approached him all the way back

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 45
1
2
3
4

here, it was somewhere around here.


Q

(indicating)

Did you see him turn into one of those

drives or streets at all?


A

He was on this main street, he was about

probably like in one of these parking lots.

time I got right here, he was already up the street.

8
9

By the

Did you see him come from a parking lot

onto Canfield?
A

No.

When I first was like all the way

10

down, the first side street, I saw him somewhere in

11

like one of the entrances to the parking lots.

12
13
14
15
16

When you were walking from this direction,

did you see any people outside?


A

No,

I don't remember.

I wasn't paying

that close attention.


Q

Okay.

So just to clarify then, you're

17

saying that there could have been, but you weren't

18

paying attention?

19

Yeah.

20

It is not that you say, no, there wasn't

21

anybody else?

22

Right.

23

All right.

24
25

But you said that you saw a

black van?
A

FAX 314-241-6750

Yes.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 46
1

Was this a minivan type of van or the

bigger like?

Soccer mom van.

Okay.

Uh, she might have been a soccer mom.

Was a woman in the car?

Yes.

Was she an African-American?

Yes.

10

And can you give me an idea about how old

11

Was there a soccer mom in the car?

she was?

12

13

maybe.

14

Was there anybody else with her?

15

I couldn't tell if there was anyone in the

16
17

Probably, urn,

36,

40, between 36 and 42

back, but not in the front passenger seat.


Q

Okay.

And the other cars that you said

18

were lining up, you really didn't get a good

19

description of them?

20

No.

21

You can't remember anything about those

22

other cars?

23

No.

24

And when you first saw the police

25

officer's car, was the police officer's car moving

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 47
1

when you first saw it?

No.

It was stopped?

Yes.

And so you had described that the

officer's car backed up quickly?

Yes.

Is that the first time that you saw the

9
10

officer's car move or did it go forward and then


back up from what you saw?

11

12

first.

13

Uh, no,

it just backed up,

it went forward

So the first time you saw the officer's

14

car, it was standing still and were the boys walking

15

away from the car at that point?

16

Yes, they was walking.

17

Okay.

18

And then you saw the officer's car

back up quickly?

19

Yes.

20

Did the tires make noise or did you hear

21

any screeching or any noise from the car?

22

Yes.

23

And at this time could you see inside the

24
25

police car to see who was driving the car?


A

FAX 314-241-6750

At that point when he backed up I did see

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 48
1

him like, you know, with his arm out the car saying

something to him like,

something to him.

doing something like that.

I don't know,

saying

I just saw hand gesture like

So you could see that there was a driver

in the police car?

Yes.

Could you tell it was a man?

Yes.

10

Could you tell whether he was

11

African-American or white at that point?

12

Yes.

13

Okay.

14

How about anybody else in the

police car, could you see if there was anyone else?

15

No,

17

But you could tell there was a policeman

18

in the car?

19

Yes.

20

What about, now,

16

21

I couldn't see if there was anyone

else.

you said you saw the red

and blue lights on the top of his car on?

22

Uh-huh.

23

Were those always on from the first time

24
25

you saw the car or did he turn them on?


A

FAX 314-241-6750

From the first time I

saw him all the way

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 49
1

down the street the lights was on.

2
3

The lights were always on from the first

time you saw the car?

Yes.

Did you ever see the lights get turned

I don't remember that.

Now, you described when you saw Michael

off?

Brown come to the window of the car.

10

window of the car kind of quickly,

11

it looked like he was angry?

He went to the

in your opinion

12

Yes.

13

And then you described his hands and

14

shoulders and arms inside the vehicle.

15

you said he was bobbing in and out?

16

And today

Yeah, it was like, you could see the back

17

of his body, like his shoulders were just like

18

moving,

19

like they were doing something in the car.

Okay.

Did he ever leave his feet?

In

20

other words, did he ever get like to the point where

21

he, you know,

22

anything?

jumped halfway into the car or

23

I wouldn't remember.

24

Okay.

25

And you said that the struggle

lasted a few seconds; is that right?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 50
1

Yes.

I think in one of your previous statements

I think you said about 15 seconds, but does that

seem about right?

Yeah, around that time.

All right.

And then another thing I

wanted to clarify is that while this whole thing is

going on, you're moving.

still and then you move?

At some point you stand

10

Yes.

11

Can you narrate for me,

I'm not telling

12

you this is what I want you to say,

I'm just giving

13

you an example.

14

and right here is where I see, I see the police car,

15

so I stop right here.

16

running,

17

the laser pointer.

If you say I'm walking down here

And then after the guy starts

I walk over here.

So can you kind of move

18

Yeah.

19

And give us an idea of how you were moving

20
21

and what was going on while you were moving?


A

Okay.

So like you said, I did come down

22

this street.

I didn't actually stop until I got

23

like to the last tree.

24

Okay.

25

That's when I was pretty close enough to

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 51
1

see what was going on.

Were you on the sidewalk or the street?

Yeah,

I was on this sidewalk right here.

(indicating)

That's on the south side of Canfield?

Yes, ma'am.

Okay.

I saw the police car sitting about here.

9
10

(indicating)
Q

Okay.

Keep the laser pointer where you

11

are while you are narrating, okay.

12

you are when you first see things.

13

Okay.

So I know where

I was about right here when I first

14

stop to get a look, when they were at the car.

15

first shot I was right here.

16

of the car,

17

I was standing about right here in the grass with

18

some people over here.

19

listening to them.

20

the shots.

21

then after that,

22

(indicating)

23
24
25

The

I seen once he got out

kind of started moving towards this way.

I'm standing right here just

That's when I heard the rest of

So I hid behind the mailbox kind of and


I just go down here and go home.

Where were you when you saw his body fall,

were you behind the mailboxes yet?


A

FAX 314-241-6750

Probably about right here in the grass in

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 52
1

this area.
Q

(indicating)
When you said you went behind the

mailboxes,

like, did you go behind there for shelter, like to

get out of the way?

7
8

I don't know what the mailboxes look

Yeah,

I hear all of those shots, you know,

I went over there.


Q

Okay.

And so are those mailboxes, what

are they like, are they metal?

10

Yes, ma'am, they're metal.

11

How tall are they?

12

From the ground, they're about this tall.

13

(indicating)

14

15
16
17

I'm a little over 5 foot and I've got

heels on, so let's say today I'm 5'4".


A

On the ground there about this tall,

reach up and touch the top.

18

So that's maybe about 5 foot high?

19

Yes.

20

And is it a solid box with little

21
22
23
24
25

I can

mailboxes in it?
A

Yes, a solid long box with just a whole

bunch of little doors.


Q

If you are standing behind the mailboxes,

does the mailboxes block your view of where Michael

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 53
1

Brown's body fell?

No,

Yes, okay.

I'm standing completely behind them.

But you saw Michael Brown's

body fall?

Yes.

You weren't behind the mailboxes?

Not completely behind it, you know,

just

kind of look around it kind of, like right here.

Okay.

10

No cars right there, there is no cars, you

11

can see all the way down to right almost right here

12

on the street.

13

This white rectangle here that I'm

14

pointing at in front of this row of cars, these are

15

mailboxes?

16

Yes.

17

Okay.

And so were you on the west side of

18

the mailboxes when you finally got behind the

19

mailboxes?

20

Oh yeah, back here.

21

Okay.

22

(indicating)

Can you people see what I'm

pointing at right here, the mailboxes?

23

But you were able to see everything

24

until about,

25

the ground?

FAX 314-241-6750

including when Michael Brown fell on

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 54
1

Yeah.

And then you also describe that you saw

the officer walk up to the body and kind of walk

around it with his gun at his side?

Yeah.

So were you behind the mailboxes at that

point peeking around or were you still out in the

open?

I was still at this point just looking

10

around until everything was over and people started

11

coming outside and I went in the house.

12

Okay.

And now you said today that when

13

Michael Brown turned around and he put his hand up

14

and you demonstrate that, that he looked like he was

15

scared; is that right?

16

Yes.

17

When you saw that, were you over in this

18

area when he turned around?

19

Yes.

20

Okay.

21

And you described him being where

when you saw him turn around?

22

Urn, about right here.

23

Okay.

(indicating)

So just so I can help with trying

24

to understand things and with trying to get you to

25

understand things, are there, when he turns around

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 55
1

and he gets shot, does he ever move backwards or

forwards after he turns around?

I don't remember that specific.

Do you remember telling the investigators

5
6
7

that you saw him taking steps backwards?


A

Yes, after he ran, he moved a couple steps

with his hands up.

Yes?

Yes.

10

He runs a few steps and he turns around

11

and he puts his hands up like next to his ears?

12

13

steps.

14

Backwards?

15

Yes.

16

So what's the furthest point backwards

17
18

Yeah, and takes like some short half

that he walks?
A

He doesn't take too many backward steps.

19

The most move he made was running about here.

20

didn't get much farther than this area.

21

Okay.

He

(indicating)

Now, eventually when he was shot

22

and hit the ground and his body laid there for quite

23

some time, is that where the memorial is now on the

24

street?

25

FAX 314-241-6750

Yes.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 56
1
2

And so can you point on the map where the

memorial is?

There's one right here by the Ferguson

apartment complex, one right here and one at the end

of my street and there's one on the street right

here where Canfield ends.

Where the word Canfield is?

Yes, memorial right there.

Okay.

So where the body laid and where

10

the memorial is, that's the farthest east that you

11

saw him get?

12

Yes.

13

Okay.

14

They kind of built the memorial on top of

15

the blood stain that was there.

16

was.

17

So that's where he

So you never saw him from the farthest

18

point that he was east, you never saw him move

19

toward the officer?

20
21
22
23

I didn't see him move toward the officer.

He could have, but I didn't see him do it.


Q

So this would have been when you were kind

of over by the mailboxes?

24

Yes.

25

And would you have been like peeking out

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 57
1

or whatever?

Yes.

And you also said today and in previous

statements that, you know, you were kind of at that

point noticing that people were kind of coming out

and milling about?

Yes.

So you were taking your eyes off of what

was going on a little bit?

10

Yes.

11

Now, you said that you saw a woman come

12

out and say that she had videoed this on her phone?

13

Yes.

14

Where did you see her when she came out?

15

When I first saw her she was standing

16

right here in front of her apartment complex.

After

17

I had went in the house and came back out, she was

18

over here with a big group of people over by the

19

apartment right here.

20

Okay.

21

That's where I thought he took her to take

22

her phone, she was standing like right here, still

23

in front of her building.

24

Okay.

(indicating)

So you think she lives in

25

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 58
1

Yes.

Do you know that?

I don't know that.

Why do you think she's lives in that

5
6

building?
A

She was standing on the balcony of,

the man that lives there,

the balcony with them.

I know

I know she was standing on

You don't know her name?

10

No.

11

What about the man that lives there, do

12

you know his name?

13

No.

14

If somebody,

15
16
17

could you point to what

balcony it was?
A

Yeah,

I can point to what balcony it was.

If I saw him on the street,

I would know him.

18

Okay so was the gal an African-American?

19

Yes.

20

About how old?

21

Probably her 20s.

22

Have you seen, after this happened, have

23

you seen people on the news who came forward who

24

said they saw it and describing what they saw?

25

FAX 314-241-6750

did.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 59
1

Did you ever see that girl, the one who

the officer took her phone, did you ever see her on

the news?

5
6

No,

I was expecting to see that video, but

I didn't.
Q

Okay.

Now you describe when you said

Michael Brown turned around and you said it looked

like he was scared and today you used the word

cowering.

10

In previous statements you said it was

like he was crouched over.

11

Yes.

12

On your recording from previous statements

13

we can't see what that means because it's an audio

14

recording.

15

was in between you and I so I didn't have a good

16

look at it.

17

you meant when he was crouched over or cowering.

18

19
20
21
22

like this.
Q

But you demonstrated today, and XXXXXX

Can you describe or demonstrate what

Okay.

It was like his hands were about

(indicating)
Can you stand up?

He was standing up at

this point, right?


A

Yes.

His shoulders were like almost

23

touching his hands, urn.

24

stance for self-defense to me.

25

crouched over.

FAX 314-241-6750

No, that's kind of like the


So that's how I said

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 60
1

And so before when you were talking to the

u.s.

FBI agents and the assistant

the guy with black hair that you talked to, the

attorney?

Yes.

Okay.

attorney, remember

And you said to him that Michael

Brown was kind of crouching over and it sounded to

me like maybe you were trying to demonstrate it and

you said, so kind of bent over?

10

Yes.

11

When you demonstrated it to them, was your

12
13
14
15
16

body bent over in any way?


A

Yes, neck kind of bent forward,

shoulders

going inward.
Q

Okay.

How about at the waist.

Would the

body be upright or is the body bent over?

17

No, the body is upright.

18

Body is upright?

19

Like from the forearm up is kind of what I

20

meant.

21

Kind of like shoulder slumped?

22

Yes,

23

Okay.

like, you know.


Okay.

And just to be clear, from

24

the time after you heard one gunshot while Michael

25

Brown was at the vehicle.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 61
1

Yes.

And then you see him run.

Does the

officer fire at Michael Brown while he's running

away?

That I don't remember.

I wasn't paying

attention at that point.

Okay.

It is from the time that the officer got

out of the car from the gun, or whatever it was on

10

the ground being picked up or whatever, that part

11

I'm not sure.

12

Okay.

And just to be clear, you said from

13

the gun being picked up off the ground, but you

14

don't know for sure what was on the ground; is that

15

right?

16

Right.

17

It was black?

18

Yes, it was black.

It made like kind of a

19

plastic metal clink when it hit the ground.

That's

20

all I know as far as the shape and what I know

21

exactly.

22

23

and yellow?

24

I didn't see any yellow.

25

It looked like it was all black and about

FAX 314-241-6750

Did you see any yellow on it, was it black

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 62
1

the size that a handgun would be?

Yes.

You didn't see who picked it up, you just

know that later it was gone?

Yes.

Okay.

Did you see, as the boys were first

walking toward the car, after the officer backed up

and the boys approached the car, did you see

anything in Michael Brown's hands?

10

No.

11

Did you ever see Michael Brown hand

12

anything to the little guy?

13

No,

I wasn't paying attention.

14

Okay.

So just cause you were kind of

15

talking softly, you said, no, you weren't paying

16

that close of attention?

17

Yes.

18

Okay.

And so after the first gunshot and

19

Michael Brown backs away,

kind of checks himself out

20

looks like and then he starts to run away, you say

21

he gets a few steps before he turns around, did you

22

hear any shots before he turns around?

23

I don't remember.

24

Okay.

25

And then after he turns around and

puts his hands up, and you said in your statement

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 63
1

and today,

backwards?

you said he took a few steps, half steps

Yeah,

Okay.

And then did it appear to you that

he had been shot at that point, could you see?

just like a little shuffle.

I couldn't tell, that was too far for

Okay.

that.
And then you heard several shots in

a row after that?

10

Yes.

11

And then after those several shots in a

12
13
14
15

row, was there another series of shots?


A

Urn, after, while his body was out there,

but it wasn't.
Q

I know there's been people who said there

16

were gunshots going off in the complex, but I'm

17

talking about from the officer?

18

No.

19

Okay.

So the one in the car or at the

20

car, and then several shots after Michael Brown had

21

turned around and that's all the gunshots you heard?

22

Yes.

23

MS. ALIZADEH:

24

MS. WHIRLEY:

I don't have anything else.


Questions?

25

FAX 314-241-6750

I'm

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 64
1

trying to get some idea on this distance here.

we can probably put it in terms of car lengths, like

a four-door vehicle, can you picture that in your

mind?

If

Yes.
Okay.

Now, when you

started off, when you saw the officer's car, can you

give me an idea how many cars, 4-door cars can fit

between where the police officer's car is and where

10
11
12

you are when you first see him?


A

Okay.

It will be about probably four or

five car lengths.

13
14
15

Okay.

Four to five car

lengths, okay.
A

Yes.

16

Okay.

And then when you

17

got to, were you still at that point when you heard

18

the first shot go off?

19
20

Yes, ma'am.

When I heard the first shot,

I was still by the tree.

21

Okay.

Then when you're at

22

the bank of the mailboxes, okay, are you still,

23

okay, where are they then?

24

25

right here.

FAX 314-241-6750

They're still in the same place about


They're still in the same area.
Gore Perry Reporting and Video
314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 65
1

(indicating)
Okay.

And so from there

to where they are, about how many car lengths would

that be you think?

From where I was to the police car?

where I was here to the police car?

Yeah.

From

was closer, I was probably about two or

three car lengths.

10

Two to three car lengths.

11

And then at that point you're there about two or

12

three car lengths, at that point that's when you see

13

Michael Brown, you see the other bank of shots or

14

the other shots go off?

15

Yes.

16
17

Okay.
I

think that's all

have.
Okay.

18

19

August the 16th, your interview when you told the

20

authorities that you were walking home from the

21

library, you first said that you saw the police

22

officer back-back, you know, not hard but --

23

Quick.

24
25

On

Quick stop and almost


hitting the boys?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 66
1

Yes.

I call them young men.

You said that, okay, what I need to understand,

cause you are on the same side as them, right?

I'm on the opposite side of the street.

At the time when you saw

the police?

Yes, during everything I was on the

opposite side of the street from the police car.

10

Opposite side would be

11

This side of the street.

The car was on

12

this side of the street, parked about right here at

13

first.

(indicating)

14

Okay.

Let me rephrase the

15

question, you are so right.

16

side as you are facing to the back of everything

17

that's going on.

18

Yeah, well,

You are facing the same

I'm facing towards the front

19

of the police car, but I'm facing the back of the

20

police officer, but while he was getting shot,

21

still facing toward Michael Brown.

22

Right.

I was

My point is, when

23

you saw the action going on at the car and the

24

vehicle,

25

it look to you when he came back at that quick stop,

FAX 314-241-6750

I call it MB and PO, police officer.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

Did

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 67
1

even though they may have almost gotten hit, you

know, and they jump back, how soon would you say

that the action between MB and the PO took place?

How soon did he walk up to the car window?

Cause when you say walk up

to the car,

it's like it's right here,

instant, it is right directly in front of me?

I'm thinking somebody almost got hit,

Yes.

10
11

It would be like boom,


boom, you know.

12

Uh-huh.

13
14

I mean, it is like

Just a jerk more than not


jump far back.

15

Right.

16

But when you say walk up

17

to the police car, did he have to like walk some

18

feet?

19

No,

just walk from the back of the car to

20

the driver's window.

21

just like, you know, probably like three steps.

22

was already there by the car.

23

the bumper to the driver's window.

24
25

It wasn't like a walk, it was


He

He just walked from

How soon did the


conversation that you did not hear take place?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 68
1

How soon after he backed up the car?


Yeah.

Urn, like less than five seconds.

It was

like instant after that happened, he just charged

right up to the window, he just went right over.

6
7
8
9

So, and you said that you


saw his body waist up in the car?

About his arms, shoulders right here like,

you know, somebody reaching, he's reaching in there.

10

Like they're in there fighting, he's reaching for

11

something but he's doing something in the car.

12
13
14
15

His head and chest was


inside the vehicle too?
A

His head was in the vehicle at one point

reaching in.

16

On August the 16th you

17

never mention that his body was inside the vehicle,

18

but on September 25th you mention that his body was

19

inside.

20

looked like they were fighting.

21

You just said that it was his arm, it

So I'm just confused because like that's a

22

big gap, that's almost like a month after you had

23

your first interview.

24

television or hear anyone in the neighborhood

25

talking about, you know, what they actually saw?

FAX 314-241-6750

Did you like hear anything on

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 69
1

No, it was just what I remember.

It might

be off, but it was like a grapple, you know, head

bobbing and shoulders moving, arms moving.


Okay.

Thank you.
Continuing on

that same thought.

nearly hits Michael Brown and Dorian.

Michael Brown makes his way almost immediately, five

seconds or so, to the driver's side of the car.

10

You know the car backs up,


You said

Can you tell from your perspectives were

11

there words exchanged first,

12

immediate action with the arms?

13

or was there kind of

I couldn't tell.

14

Okay.

Thank you.

15

When you

16

moved from the tree to the mailbox, were you walking

17

or running at that time?

18
19

It was a mix,

say.

20
21
22

That's a pretty good


distance, that's 50,
A

23
24
25

kind of like a jog almost I

60 feet maybe?

From the tree to the mailbox?


From the tree to the

mailbox?
A

FAX 314-241-6750

It's not really far when you are there.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 70
1

It is not even this little amount of trees,

there is another one right here and there's another

one right here as well, that's not on this map.

I think

Is that the picture, you

are watching the ground as much as maybe you are

looking back at the scene too, so you're not seeing

everything?

Yes.

9
10
11

You are concentrating on


moving.
A

Yes, that's what I stated earlier as well.

12

Did you make it to the

13

mailbox before you heard the shots or was it as you

14

were moving that you were hearing shots?

15

It was while I was there.

At this point I

16

was kind of on the edge right here when the rest of

17

the shots rang out.

18
19

You had already stopped.


A

Yes.

20

And turned around and were

21

facing him?

22

Yes.

23

When you saw

24

Michael Brown turn around, you indicated earlier

25

that you couldn't identify any facial expressions.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 71
1

Could you tell, and you said clearly that you

couldn't hear anything.

was saying anything or not?

No.
Or trying to say words?

5
6

I wouldn't be able to see his mouth moving

or anything.

saying anything.

wasn't really listening for him

9
10
11

You didn't see his mouth


moving?
A

can't see his facial expressions.

12
13
14

Could you tell whether he

So you didn't hear


anything or you couldn't see anything?
A

No.

15

Okay.

Thank you.

16

17

go back to what

18

about.

19

just want to

were talking

When I look at the transcript from

20

September 25th, and I compare it to the transcript

21

from August 16th, to me it looks like you are saying

22

something very similar.

23

From the 16th on page 15, it says he

24

approached the window of the vehicle, Mr. Brown, he

25

approached the window of the vehicle.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

Could you

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 72
1

tell if he reached in or the officer reached out.

don't know.

And then you said, yet like his head and

shoulders were.

and shoulders were in the window.

yeah.

And the FBI agent says, his head


And you said,

Were his arms in the window as well.

said yeah, his arms basically, you know, steady

reaching in.

10
11

You

His whole top half in the window and

popping back out?


A

(Nods head.)

12

And then the one from the

13

25th, basically to me it looks like you are saying

14

the same thing.

15

reading this correctly.

16

I want to make sure that I'm

Okay.

17

When he saw him go into

18

the window, it seemed like he just ran.

19

one of the lady officers, she says, was he in the

20

window or parts of his body inside the window.

21

you said yeah, like his head and shoulders were.

22

And you said yes, that's what it looked like.

23

And then

And

And then later you said you saw Michael

24

Brown, you said his whole top half in the window and

25

you said yes,

FAX 314-241-6750

just about.
Gore Perry Reporting and Video
314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 73
1
2

I want to make sure I'm understanding.


A

Yes.

3
4
5

His head, shoulders and


arms were in the window?
A

Yes.

6
7
8

And that's what you said


in both statements.
A

Yes.

You said here, did you

10

see the police officer's face after Michael Brown

11

left the scene and the officer was getting out?

12

After Mike Brown left the scene?


After Mike Brown was

13

14

running away and the officer got out of the car, did

15

you see the officer's face?

16

No, no.

17
18
19

You didn't see if it was


bruised or anything?
A

No,

I couldn't tell.

20

him really get out of the car.

21

was already out.

22
23
24

I didn't even see


When I looked up he

Do you know if Michael


Brown reached for his chest or under his waistband?
A

25

FAX 314-241-6750

I don't remember.
MS. ALIZADEH:

His own or the officer's?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 74
Michael Brown.

1
2

I don't remember.

3
4

In one of the statements


the first two shots you didn't see?

A couple of them I wasn't looking, but I

heard them ring back, to back, to back.

had to be like,

were back to back.

look and see.

10
11
12

After it

I don't remember exactly, but they


After about the third one,

I did

And you said to officer


or district attorney, whatever her name is,
, in one of your statements that you had looked

13

away.

14

that he moved forward toward the police officer,

15

what would you say about that.

16

have been one of the times I was looking away.

17

And she said, if I told you we had evidence

You said that might

Yeah.

18

So I understand, you're

19

doing very well by the way, there's a lot going on,

20

you are scared?

21

There was a lot going on.

22

I understand, Hon.

23

just want to make sure just because you are saying

24

you didn't see it, doesn't necessarily mean it

25

didn't happen.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 75
1
2

Right, right, that's the point I tried to

make.
Okay.

You said today

that you felt like this was murder.

how you felt,

officer's position.

think he should have done?

Can I ask you

I want you to put yourself in the

Okay.

I want you to tell us what you

I mean, even if I heard that people

said that he reached in the truck, even if he did

10

attack you, he was unarmed.

11

point he tried to surrender, he could have put

12

handcuffs on him.

13

why they have those nightsticks, that's why you have

14

all these other options.

15

I feel like at the

They could have maced him, that's

This is a boy who has no weapons at

16

all, you exhaust your other options.

17

but why kill him.

18

Injure him,

Thank you so much.

19

MS. ALIZADEH:

I have a question.

20

I can't remember from your previous statements, but

21

you've never heard the officer yelling any commands

22

or anything, did you?

23

24
25

No.
MS. ALIZADEH:

FAX 314-241-6750

Your hearing is okay?

It's okay.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 76
1

MS. ALIZADEH:

This thought just now

occurred to me because you are a young person.

I've never asked anybody else, but did you have

headphones or ear buds that day as you were walking

back from the library?

No.
MS. ALIZADEH:

And

Kids walk around with

headphones on, so you didn't have anything in your

ears?

10

No,

I just wasn't really,

11

lot of noise, a lot of commotion.

12

lot of noise over there.

13

they were,

MS. ALIZADEH:

15

screaming from anybody?


A

17
18

No,

So if they weren't where

You didn't hear any

I wasn't paying attention to it.

MS. ALIZADEH:
A

It's usually a

I probably wouldn't have heard it.

14

16

I mean, it was a

Okay.

Like I said, it's a possibility they could

19

have been, but I didn't catch anything or anything I

20

would remember word for word.

21

MS. ALIZADEH:

All right, thank you.

22
23

I have one more question.

24

something hit the ground, you thought it was a

25

weapon?

FAX 314-241-6750

You said that you saw

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 77
1

Yes.

3
4

And I understand now we


know that Michael Brown was not armed?
A

Yes.

5
6
7

But at the time we didn't


know that,
A

correct?
Right.

At first I thought it was his gun,

like I thought that's what hit the ground.

So it is reasonable to

10

think the police officer might think he has a gun.

11

I'm not saying that he deserved what happened to

12

him, we just didn't know that?

13

Yes.

14

Thank you.

15

You just

16

stated to the prosecutor that you never heard the

17

officer yell out any commands.

18

you know,

19

last what six shots or whatever, did you at any time

20

hear him cry out anything or cry out even in pain?

21

shots were going towards Mr. Brown, the

No.

22

No.

23

MS. ALIZADEH:

24

MS. WHIRLEY:

25

When Mr. Brown was,

Anyone else?
No.

Sheila?

That will conclude the

testimony of this witness.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 78
(End of the testimony of

MS. WHIRLEY:

together.

11:21 a.m.

We're still working

It is October 28th, 2014, approximately


We've concluded the testimony of

Now we're going to start with the recording

5
6

of

You have transcripts of that.

The Grand Jury Exhibit Number 55, which is the

recording for her.

anticipating she will be here as a witness probably

10

after lunch.

11

long.

We will play that.

It is somewhere around 30 minutes

With that said, XXXXXXX, stop the recording.

12
13

We are

Who are the other people


listed on here?

14

MS. WHIRLEY:

We didn't do these

15

transcripts.

I'm not sure how, why all of these

16

folks spoke.

This is what I did notice and you will

17

notice it when you hear the transcript, hear the

18

recording, there are several people at the house.

19

I'm glad you asked that question.

20

are several people at the house, and then they kind

21

of isolate

22

testimony is from her, but a few other people are

23

speaking.

and the bulk of the

24
25

Actually, there

They may be family


members or bystanders?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 79
MS. WHIRLEY:

People that are in the house

when the FBI arrived there to find out what

happened.

as really the witness.

Okay.

Good question.

(Playing of the interview of

5
6

And then, I guess, they narrow her down

.)

MS. WHIRLEY:

That concludes the recorded

testimony of

We do anticipate that

she will be here this afternoon, however, we are

10

going to break for lunch now.

11

lunch is here, first of all.

12

October 28th, 2014.

13

We'll see if your


And it is 11:55 a.m.,

(Lunch recess taken)

14

MS. WHIRLEY:

I'm Sheila Whirley.

We are

15

resuming our afternoon session in the shooting of

16

Michael Brown.

17

approximately 12:56.

18

12 grand jurors are present and so is XXXXXXX, the

19

court reporter.

20

first witness,

21

It is October the 28th, 2014, at


Kathi Alizadeh is present, all

We are going to start with our

As you recall, you listened to one of her

22

statements this morning before lunch.

23

live for testimony and she did also meet with the

24

federal investigative parties this morning.

25

has another statement that we don't have for you

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

She's here

So she

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 80
1

yet.

So we will see what she has to say today.

2
3

of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to

testify the truth, the whole truth, and

nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid,

deposes and says in reply to oral

interrogatories, propounded as follows,

8
9
10
11

to-wit:

EXAMINATION
BY MS. WHIRLEY:

Q
earlier,

Hi, as I introduced myself a little


I'm Sheila Whirley.

12

How you doing, Miss Whirley.

13

I'm good dear, thank you.

You met Kathi

14

Alizadeh, the 12 grand jurors are here, XXXXXXX, the

15

court reporter,

16

yourself to the grand jurors and spell your name,

17

please?

18

is here and I want you to introduce

Yes.

My name is

20

Okay.

21

Yes, ma'am.

22

I know you talked to several people.

19

23

And you know why we're here today?

How

many interviews have you given?

24

Well, two.

25

Two, okay.

FAX 314-241-6750

And do you recall when your

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 81
1

first interview was?

Uh

If I say August the 16th, like a week

after, a little bit earlier than,

after, does that sound right?

I want to say it was probably before that.

It could have been before then,

that day.

10

I guess, a week

it could have been

It could be August 16th, kind of around

like 11 in the morning?

11

Yeah.

12

And then you had another interview today;

13

is that correct?

14

That's right.

15

That you finished?

16

This morning.

17

This morning.

Okay.

We just need you to

18

tell us what happened, so that's basically what

19

we're here for.

20

the beginning.

21

9th of 2014, on a Saturday, is that how you recall

22

it?

I'm going to ask you to start at

This would have occurred August the

23

Yes, ma'am.

24

Do you live in Canfield Green?

25

No, ma'am.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 82
1

Did you live in Canfield Green that day?

No, ma'am,

You were riding through.

4
5

I was riding through.


So what did your

morning start like, tell us about it?


A

Well, actually,

I was up early morning,

was going to make a store run, but I also stay in

the area on

9
10
11
12
13

Where is that in relation to Canfield

Green Apartment?
A

Actually, it is not that far,

it is like,

it is like down the street and around the corner.


Q

It is like off West Florissant or behind

Canfield Green?

14

I will say before you get to Canfield.

15

Okay.

16

It's a house on the other side of Solway

17

and West Florissant.

18

take to get to the Canfield.

19
20
21
22

It is a side street you can

Is it Jennings or is it in Ferguson or is

it unincorporated?
A

Well, my house was the last house of

Jennings, so I would say it is --

23

So Jennings?

24

Jennings.

25

Okay.

FAX 314-241-6750

So what time of day is it that

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 83
1

you're driving through Canfield Green Apartments?

That I couldn't say.

I honestly forgot

what time it was, but I was riding through coming

from the store and I seen a friend,

visit a friend, but he wasn't at home.

couple of people that I knew outside and stopped to

ask one of the guys for a cigarette.

9
10

I was going to
So I seen a

Are those all people that live in Canfield

Green, your friend and the other people that you


saw?

11

Yeah, but my friend wasn't there.

12

All right.

13

I didn't see him at all.

14

If I tell you it was around noon or so,

15

does that sound right?

16

Yeah.

17

Where did you come from?

I mean, this is

18

West Florissant over here just to orient you to the

19

map.

20

Okay.

21

So where did you come from?

22

I was,

23
24
25

I came the back way through the

Northwinds Apartment.
Q

So you're traveling,

is it east on

Canfield toward West Florissant?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 84
1

Toward West Florissant.

That's a laser pen, it has a red light.

If you push the button, so why don't you pick that

up and there's a little button right there and,

yeah, okay.

Okay.

Uh-huh.

And I had stopped, this is a driveway

So show us how you were traveling?


I was coming down Canfield.

before you get to Coppercreek.

10

Okay.

11

I pulled in there and I got out of the

12

car,

I was talking to a friend.

13

And is this before everything happened?

14

Before everything had happened.

15

Were you riding alone?

16

Yes,

17

What kind of car were you in?

18

I had a

19

What color?

20

Burgundy.

21

Burgundy?

22

I saw a friend,

I was.

I got out and asked him

23

for a cigarette.

24

just talking in general.

25

of talking, Mike Brown and his friend was walking

FAX 314-241-6750

He was just sitting there, we was


And as we was in the midst

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 85
1

across the lot.

Which way were they walking?

They was walking towards

Show us on the map if it is on the map.

They was walking down Canfield on the lot

by the trash cans, they crossed and then they walked

down the street.

I can't say.

I don't know where they was going,

Okay.

10

So they walk towards West Florissant.

11

Okay.

12

I can say that, don't know where they was

13

going.

14

Okay.

15

So we just out there generally talking.

16

So when you saw them walking towards West

17

Florissant, nothing was going on then?

18

Was nothing going on.

19

Did you know Mike Brown before this day?

20

No,

21

Did you know his friend?

22

No,

23

Describe Mike Brown so we know we are

24
25

I didn't.

I didn't.

talking about the same person?


A

FAX 314-241-6750

He was a big, tall, heavy set guy.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

He had

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 86
1

on like some khaki type shorts with like a gray like

T-shirt and flip flops, he had a hat on.

Okay.

I'm not for sure.

Okay.

He was dark skin with dreads, he had on,

7
8

9
10
11

Do you remember the color?

And what did his friend look like?

think he probably had on like a white T-shirt.


Q

Are you guessing or is that what you

recall?
A

Well,

I'm guessing.

I really wasn't

paying no attention.

12

Okay.

13

What really they had on.

14

You don't have to guess.

15

All right.

16

If I ask you to give me an approximate

17

amount feet or something like that is a distance,

18

maybe as long as you let us know you are kind of

19

guessing.

20

I was at the dumpster that's on

21

Coppercreek that I'm standing by.

22

past, they was like a little distance away from me.

23
24
25

When they walk

Show me again where you were when they

walked past?
A

FAX 314-241-6750

This,

I don't know where directly

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 87
1
2
3
4

Coppercreek is.
Q

This is Coppercreek is going all the way

around.
A

The dumpster is like right here on the

first parking lot.

Okay.

My car was parked right behind it, but I

8
9

was standing not that far from the dumpster.


Q

So you are having a smoke, you're talking,

10

you're chilling, this is a Saturday, you're enjoying

11

life, right?

12

Yes, ma'am.

13

I saw your testimony or read it on the

14

transcript where you were happy to be out there?

15

Yeah,

it was a beautiful day.

16

Is that what you meant by that?

17

Yeah.

18

Then what?

19

So we was out there talking,

notice

20

Ferguson was coming from the back, from the

21

Northwinds Apartment.

22
23

When you say Ferguson, you mean a police

officer?

24

Ferguson police officer was coming.

25

He was in a marked police car?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 88
1

Yes, he was in a SUV.

And why did you notice him?

I mean, because we was all standing on the

parking lot and they was coming.

When you say they, more than one?

There was two in the car.

But just one car?

Yes, SUV.

And tell me again why you notice the car?

10

Because they was riding through.

And,

11

guess, that's their way of making their rounds or

12

whatever.

13

in the midst of that I guess Mike Brown and his

14

friend,

So I really didn't pay no attention, but

not guessing, they was on their way back up.

15

Which way were they walking down?

16

They was coming back towards,

17

Show me?

19

They was coming back that way.

21
22

like they

was coming towards the Northwinds Apartment.

18

20

(indicating)
Q

All right.

And the police car, did it

have its light on or anything like that?

23

No, it did not.

24

Was it like driving fast

25

No, they was like --

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 89
1

-- or like patrolling?

Like patrolling.

All right.

So Mike Brown and his friend

are walking east on Canfield Drive and what happens

then?

They was walking in the middle of the

street.

Okay.

I didn't hear what the police had said to

10

'em or what the remark was, but they was in the

11

middle of the street.

12

friend was, we didn't stay that far,

13

say, we didn't stay far.

I want to say the guy, his


I heard him

14

You heard the friend say that?

15

I heard the friend say, we didn't stay

16

that far.

17

We didn't stay that far?

18

Right.

19

Don't know what was going on with that?

20

Don't know what was going on or what was

22

Did you hear Mike Brown say anything?

23

No,

24

Did you hear the police officer say

21

25

said.

I didn't.

anything?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014


Page 90

I didn't hear anything.

Now,

I need you to show me again where you

were when you heard his friend say, we didn't go

that far or what he said?

I was standing like right in the parking

lot,

I was still standing like, not that close from

the dumpster.

Okay.

And they was sort of walking like in the

10

middle of the street.

11

So where were they when you heard it?

12

Right up in there.

13

Where was the police car, right next to

14
15

(indicating)

them or something?
A

It is like right next to 'em, they like in

16

the middle of the street, right in the middle of the

17

street.

18

Okay.

19

He pulled up like, they divide each other.

20

They in the middle walking up the street, the police

21

coming down,

22

car can go through.

23
24
25

of course, they like split up so the

Okay.

So you saw them split up, they were

on either side of the police car?


A

FAX 314-241-6750

Yes.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 91
Q

What side of the police car was Mike Brown

On the driver's side.

What side was Dorian?

The passenger side.

So they were on opposite sides of the car?

Yes.

Was Dorian talking to anybody on the

on?

passenger side?

10

Huh-uh.

11

Okay.

12

I seen the police pull off and then next

13
14

And then what did you see?

thing you know, he pulled back.


Q

In what manner did he pull back, was it

15

quick, was it just normal, was there anything

16

noticeable about how he pulled back?

17

Wasn't noticeable.

18

So he pulls back?

19

Pulls back.

20

Does he pull back straight in a line or

21

some other way?

22

I want to say straight back in a line.

23

So like if I'm going to back, he just went

24
25

straight back, he didn't move one way or the other?


A

FAX 314-241-6750

No.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 92
1

Okay, go ahead.

So as he pulled back,

I guess that's when

he went to go and try to grab him.

Did you say you guess?

Well, no, he grabbed, he went to go and

grab him, that's when they start tussling.


So the police officer pulls back and grabs

Mike Brown?

Yes, and they was tussling.

10

Could you see the officer's arm?

11

He grabbed him from the outside,

12

grabbed him.

13

14

just

I want to kind of focus on what you saw.

Did you see the officer's arm?

15

No,

16

You didn't see the officer's arm, but he

17
18

was grabbing him?


A

Like I say,

19

altercation.

20

excuse me,

21
22
23
24
25

I did not.

I just seen a little

I didn't know if he was, oh Lord,

I got nervous.
Don't get nervous, we're just trying to

find out what you saw.


A
tussling.

FAX 314-241-6750

They was tussling I,

can say they was

I didn't see his arm or anything.


You didn't see the officer's arm?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 93
1

No.

Could you see Mike Brown's?

I did see him shy back, like he went to go

and jump back.

Okay.

And that's when we first was like what's

going on.

shot.

Then, that's when we heard the first

Okay.

Now, before we get to the shot,

10

want to make sure I understand.

11

you are looking at Mike Brown and the officer,

12

because all of this is real important, and I know

13

you probably know this because that's why you had

14

these interviews.

15

Can you see, where

When you see Mike Brown and the

16

officer and you believe they're tussling, are you

17

looking, is your vision at the passenger side of the

18

car or the driver's side of the car?

19

The passenger side.

20

Okay.

So you're standing here and the car

21

is going west, so you're at the passenger side and

22

the driver's side

23

On the left side, so I really couldn't

24

see.

So, therefore, when they was on the passenger

25

side, he grabbed back, that's when the first gunshot

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 94
1
2

went off.
Q

Right.

I know you want to get to that

gunshot, but I really want to make sure that we're

clear on your vantage point, you know, like where

you could see it, like where you were.

I was standing right by the dumpster.

You can see Dorian still?

Just to help us a little bit, we don't know where

10

the dumpster is.

11

please?

12

Can you mark that on there for us,

Let's see.

It may not even be on the

13

photo I don't think.

I don't want to do it wrong.

14

There's another parking lot.

15

like right up here, dumpster right here, dumpster

16

right here.

(indicating)

17
18
19
20

You were right next to the


dumpster you said?
A

dumpster.

21
22
23

I want to say it was

I was like right up in there by the


(indicating)
MS. WHIRLEY:

Where are they when you saw

them, like you said, tussling?


A

This is Coppercreek, this is Canfield,

24

here is the tree, they was like right up in here.

25

(indicating)

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014


Page 95

MS. WHIRLEY:

Okay.

Like right up in there.

(indicating)

Thank you.

3
MS. ALIZADEH:

Can I ask while you were

standing up there.

the pen and where is the dumpster?

down if you can.

8
9

12
13

I need glasses,

No,

just sit

it is right there.

(indicating)

10
11

It is,

I couldn't see around you, use

MS. ALIZADEH:

Good, all right,

I just

couldn't see.
Q

(By Ms. Whirley)

Now, we've got to ask you

about your vision.

14

I do need glasses, excuse me.

15

What do you need glass for?

16

For?

17

To see far way?

18

Yes, ma'am.

19

Do you need glasses like me to read up

20

close also?

21

Yes.

22

Do you wear glasses?

23

I don't have them, but I do.

24

Do you have contacts instead?

25

No.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 96
1

So you need help with your vision, but you

don't have any?

No.

Okay.

So that particular day were you

wearing anything to help your vision?

Huh-uh.

But you did need some help?

I mean,

You were okay?

10

I was okay.

11

So you're pretty firm and secure about

12

it was light so.

what you saw you are telling us about?

13

Yes.

14

Even though your vision is not perfect?

15

Yes.

16

How about your hearing?

17

Fine.

18

No problem with the hearing?

19

No problem.

20

Don't need an aid or anything?

21

No.

22

Okay.

You know,

I'm going to ask you, do

23

you think you were as close to the scene where the

24

officer and Mike Brown were tussling as this room

25

depicts or was it much further than this room?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 97
1

Like from where you are,

walking,

to them?

I start

is it beyond this wall, how close you were

Yeah.

Okay.

There was the street and the dumpster was

kind of a little ways.

So it was a pretty good little distance?

Yeah.

10

But you see?

11

But I

12

And you're sure of what you saw?

13

Yeah.

14

Now,

could see.

you did tell us today that you

15

weren't sure what they were doing in the car, but

16

they were tussling?

17

They was tussling.

18

At one point you thought that the officer

19

grabbed Mike Brown?

20

When he pulled back.

21

When he pulled back, did he grab Mike

22

Brown.

23

I'm sure he pulled back.

24

When the officer pulled back,

25

Are you sure or unsure about that today?

you mean

backed the car up?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 98
1

When he backed the car up.

He grabbed Mike Brown?

Yes.

That was the first physical thing that

happened?

Is that a yes?

Yes, ma'am.

So how did he grab him, where did he grab

him at?
A

Like by the shirt, like the neck collar

11

So was the car window down?

12

Yes, it was.

13

So did you see his arm?

14

When it went out the window.

15

Uh-huh.

16

Yes, ma'am.

17

Okay.

18

Yes.

19

So you say you did see his arm?

20

When he went out the window.

21

You could see, what color was he?

22

He was white.

23

He was white.

24

Uniform.

25

I mean, did he have on a uniform?

9
10

part.

FAX 314-241-6750

You weren't clear on that earlier.

He didn't have --

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 99
1

Yes.

Long or short sleeve?

Short sleeve.

Okay.

happened when he grabbed him?

That's when the tussling started, and

that's when the first pow went off.

And he grabbed him and what

Did you see them tussling once the officer

grabbed him, there was a tussle?

10

There was a tussle.

11

How long would you say that tussle went

13

It wasn't long.

14

Seconds, minutes?

15

It was probably, maybe like two minutes.

16

Okay.

17

Yes.

18

All right.

19

I'm not going to be --

20

Did you see Mike Brown hit the officer?

21

No.

22

Okay.

12

23

on?
It wasn't long at all.

We know that's a guess,

correct?

Did you see him with his fist,

did

you see his hands?

24

It was as if he was trying to get away.

25

Show us what you mean?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 100
1

He was like, when the police grabbed him,

it was like as if he was trying to, like break away

from the police.

Okay.

So you didn't see his hands inside

the police car?

No, ma'am.

You didn't see him, his body inside the

police car?

No, ma'am.

10

Okay.

11

When the police grabbed him by the neck,

So then what did you see?

12

he shied away from him, that's when the first shot

13

went off.

14

black Monte Carlo that was also parked on Canfield

15

in front of an apartment building.

16

like right up in here.

His friend Dorian ran and hid beside a

Not that far,

(indicating)

17

Okay.

18

He hid right here.

That's when Mike

19

Brown, on the first shot, he turned around and ran.

20

I was trying to run and there was another lady who

21

was also coming out of her apartment was in the

22

midst of running.

23

24

first shot?

25

first shot?

FAX 314-241-6750

Did it appear that Dorian was hit by that


Not Dorian, Mike Brown, was hit by the

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 101
1

Yes, ma'am.

Why do you say that?

Because when he turned around,

I seen a

red spot on his shirt.

Now, you are pointing to your upper right?

He got shot up in this area.

Are you saying the right or the left?

When you turn around,

(indicating)

I want to say might

have been on the left.

10

I don't want you to guess.

11

The left I will say.

12

Are you sure about that?

13

Yeah,

14

Okay.

15

Red spot on his shirt.

16

Okay.

17

And that's when he stopped and when he

18

I'm sure.
And you saw a red

stopped.

19

20

at the car?

21

When you say he stopped, did he stop right

No, he stop, actually, like it's like a

22

light pole and a tree.

23

that tree and the light pole.

24
25

He stopped right there at

We have to kind of take it step by step,

know you are getting tired of all of this, but

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 102
1

that's how we have to do.

away from that car when he stopped, did you see him

leave the car.

When I seen him break away from the car,

he was running.

was going to run.

fired,

10

That gave me the assumption that I

What did he do when the shot was

did he just break and run?


He broke and run, but he stopped, he

stopped in stride.

11
12

Okay.

I tell us how far he got

I want to know about him running though,

where did he go behind the car?

13

No, he didn't go behind no car.

14

What did he do?

15

His friend ran behind the car.

16

Where did Mike Brown run to?

17

He ran towards the light, he was running

18

like towards the light pole, like towards my

19

direction.

20

Okay.

21

Yeah, and he was running like towards that

23

So in the grass?

24

And he stopped his stride and stopped

22

25

The dumpster you show us was here?

way.

right there like by the tree in between the light

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 103
1

pole.

Okay.

He stopped, hands was up.

Can you show us how he, well, first of

all, you didn't say he turned around, did he turn

around or was he running backwards?

No, he was running like towards my

direction.

Okay.

10

Looking toward like my way.

11

Okay.

12

He stopped.

13

Uh-huh.

14

And that's when he turned around.

15

Show us that.

16
17

Show us like, you know, go

that way and then show us how you turn around?


A

He,

I'm standing over there, he's running

18

and then he turns around and he was like that way.

19

(indicating)

20

Did you hear him say anything?

21

He might of.

22

You don't have to guess, did you hear him

23
24
25

say anything?
A

That's where I thought I heard him say he

gave up.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 104
1

You heard him say what?

I give up.

You're not sure?

I heard him say don't give up.

Don't give up?

I give up,

I give up.

I give up.

Where did he say that?

10

That's when he started walking back

11

I mean.

towards the officer.

12

So how was he walking towards the officer?

13

He went like this with his hands up, and

14

when he reached that way that's when the police

15

started four shots.

16
17
18

(indicating)

How did he reach.

You say he reached that

I mean, he had his hands up like this, he

way?

19

never went down or reached out, he still had his

20

hands up.

21

letting off more shots.

And that's when the police started

22

You never saw him like go to his waist?

23

His hands never went down.

24

When the officer was shooting?

25

When the officer start shooting, his hands

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 105
1

never went down.

How many shots did the officer fire?

Uh,

it was over six, it was six to nine

rounds.

All about

The first shot pow, pause.

And that was at the car?

That was at the car.

Okay.

10

When he turned around to go back, as if he

11

was surrendering, that's when the rest of the shots

12

started going off.

13

Okay.

So when Mike Brown was surrendering

14

and he was walking towards the officer, what was the

15

officer doing before he started shooting or did he

16

just start shooting?

17

He just started shooting.

18

The officer didn't back up or walk toward

19

Mike Brown?

20

He just started shooting.

21

Did he say anything to him,

22

No, he just started shooting.

23

He didn't tell him to stop or anything?

24

If he did,

25

like get down?

I didn't hear that part,

I just

know the gunshots start ringing off.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 106
1

Were you close enough to hear it?

The gunshots?

Were you close enough to hear if the

officer said something?

No.

You were not close enough?

No.

But you were close enough to hear Mike

Brown?

10

He screamed like,

11

He was screaming?

12

He screamed,

13

So if the officer was screaming a command

14

I give up.

I give up.

or something, do you expect to have heard it?

15

I would have heard it.

16

Okay.

Now, this other officer, when did

17

you see him, you said it was two officers in the

18

car?

19
20
21
22

Yes,

I mean, when he got out of the car,

didn't really get no description of him.


Q

Before you kind of jump too far.

Are you

saying the officer, the other officer?

23

He was in the passenger seat.

24

He was in the passenger seat,

25

front?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

in the

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 107
1

The front seat.

Did you see him get out of the car?

(Shakes head.)

Okay.

No, ma'am.

Okay.

So he did not get out of the car?

From what you could see, what did

you, what did you tell us about the other officer

was he a black or white man?

He was a white cop too.

10

Did he look young or old?

11

He could have been middle age or young,

12

don't know.

13

Did he look to be in uniform?

14

They both was in uniform.

15

Okay.

16

No.

17

Or you didn't see him?

18

I didn't see the passenger door open at

Okay.

19

But he never got out of the car?

all.

20
21

And since your vantage point was

from the passenger side, that's where Dorian was?

22

Yes.

23

You could see this other officer in the

Yes.

24
25

car?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 108
Q

And that officer never got out to assist

I never --

I have to ask the question and then you

answer.

time.

He can't take us both down at the same

I'm sorry.

You never, when the officer, when the

9
10

gunshot went off, you never saw the other officer do


anything?

11

No, ma'am.

12

And when Darren Wilson we know is the

13

shooting officer, when he got out, the other officer

14

never got out to assist him?

15

No, ma'am.

16

But you're positive there was another

17

officer in the car?

18

Yes, ma'am.

19

Okay.

20

(Shakes head. )

21

Did you ever see Mike Brown with a weapon?

22

No, ma'am.

23

And when I

24
25

Did you ever see a weapon fall?

ask you about a weapon falling,

what was your answer?


A

FAX 314-241-6750

No.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 109
Okay.

When you saw Mike Brown stop and

turn around,

the 16th, and we've had your statement so we know,

at least the first one, of course,

mention that he turned around as if he was defending

himself or giving up, which are two different

things.

9
10

I think your first statement on August

I think you

Well, there was so much going on,

to say he was surrendering himself.


defend hisself,

I meant

I didn't say to

I meant to say surrendering.

11

Okay.

12

Giving up.

13

Is what you meant?

14

Yes, ma'am.

15

Did it look like at any time he was trying

16
17

Surrendering or giving up?

to defend himself from the officer to you?


A

As far as getting away, he grabbed him,

18

yes, it was like as if he was like, why is you

19

grabbing me, like what did I do, that type.

20

Okay.

Now, when Mike Brown was running

21

away, you were trying to explain to me how he ran.

22

So you said he didn't run very far,

23

to me?

24

25

so explain that

I mean, from the middle of the street to

the light pole like where, it is like light pole and

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 110
1

there is some trees right there in front of his

apartment building right there.

Uh-huh.

Like the parking lot, he didn't run that

far from Mike from right here to there.

It wasn't

far at all.

Okay.

Before he turned around.

And when he was running away from the

(indicating)
Before he turned around?

10

officer, when he had his back to the officer, did

11

you hear any shots being fired?

12

No.

13

How many shots would you say you heard

14
15
16
17
18

total from the start of the car?


A

One,

I'm going to say like it's about six,

between six and nine shots.


Q

Okay.

And when he was walking towards the

officer?

19

He had his hands up.

20

He had his hands up?

21

Yes, ma'am.

22

Did you ever see him like run towards the

23
24
25

officer?
A

No, ma'am.

He stopped and he turns around

and he like was walking back towards the officer.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 111
1
2

What was your opinion of why he was

walking towards the officer?


Like as if he was surrendering, and that

first shot,

was surrendering hisself like,

what did I do?

8
9

I guess, he noticed he was shot.


I give up.

Like,

Did it look like he was falling into the

officer's body or something?


A

No,

it was like as if he was walking back

10

towards him.

11

when the police started letting off the shots.

12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21

So he

He was going back towards him, that's

Now, did you take any video or pictures of

the shooting?
A

No,

I didn't.

I didn't get none of that

at all.
Q

Did you get anything like after the

shooting?
A

I got after the shooting, it's not much,

but I got some of it.


Q

What did you do with that video, was it

video or pictures?

22

I got videos on my phone.

23

Do you have it with you?

24

Yes, ma'am.

25

Just hold tight, we will have to deal with

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XVII

October 28, 2014

Page 112
1

that later.

Did you turn that over to the police?

To the FBI.

The FBI have it?

Yes.

Okay.

Do you know

6
7

No.

Okay.

That's what I need to know.


?

Do you remember when you talked to

the FBI at the house,

I guess it was in Canfield

10

Green?

11

Uh-huh.

12

Whose house were you at when you were

13

talking to them?

14

I was at my friend's house.

15

What is her name?

16

No, that was a guy.

17

What's his name?

18

19
20

MS. ALIZADEH:

I'm sorry, what's his name?

MS. ALIZADEH:

21
22

23

(By Ms. Whirley) And he lived at Canfield?

24

Yes.

25

Where was that apartment at that

FAX 314-241-6750

Uh-huh.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com