You are on page 1of 250

State of Missouri v.

Darren Wilson
Grand Jury, Volume XXI

November 13,2014

Page 197
1

Something like his

obviously happened very quickly, would it be unusual

not to have that button pushed?

surprised it's not or in your experience it may not?

I don't know whether it was pushed or not,

I don't.

7
8
9

I mean, are

If it was not, would you


be surprised necessarily?
A

No, not necessarily.

10

Okay.

11

Officer

12

Wilson when he testified before indicated to us that

13

he did not carry a taser.

14

is that it was uncomfortable to carry.

15

it standard procedure for an officer to dictate what

16

he will and will not carry.

17

And his reason for such


I mean, is

Urn, under the circumstances tasers,

18

didn't know that he didn't carry the taser until

19

after the incident that day.

20

number of tasers.

21

We have a limited

When I actually got to the Ferguson

22

Police Department, there were a lot deficiencies

23

that I wanted to correct, and one of them was there

24

were too many incidents where a taser could have

25

been used, but we didn't have them.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXI

November 13,2014

Page 198
So I set about trying to locate some

money and just buy a few at a time.

taser assigned to each officer, but we're trying to

improve that.
Okay.

We don't have a

Just in addition to

that, how long has this been known you don't have

enough tasers for every officer,

you discover the problem?

They didn't have enough?

10
11
12
13

About the lack of amount


of tasers.
A

There were no tasers when I started

working there at all.

14
15

I mean, when did

Okay.
A

I bought five with some grant money that I

16

was able to dig up and with some asset sharing.

17

then as I got another grant, I bought a few more.

18
19
20

And

Uh-huh.
A

I'm trying to get enough so that each

officer will have his own personal.

21

When you get this grant,

22

is it a grant, urn, that is specifically set out for

23

those tasers?

24

tasers or whatever, do you initiate this grant, I

25

want X amount of money,

FAX 314-241-6750

Like when you feel that you need some

I need five more tasers.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXI

November 13,2014

Page 199
1

It is more, that's pretty much the case,

ma'am.

We get notified or we search for grants that

are available.

Uh-huh.

In this case I think this was through the

State Cops Program that there would be an

application process for grants.

opportunity to say, I have this need, then you have

to have explain the need and justify it and then say

10

how much money you would like to have.

11
12

So you have the

And then they decide how much money


they are going to give you, if any.

13

When you receive the

14

money, you put in, say you put in for the tasers,

15

okay.

16

whatever.

17

comes up that you feel now is more warranted.

18

you specifically have to use that grant money?

19

You get the grant money delivered to you or

And say there is something else that


Do

Yes, ma'am.

20

Okay, all right.

21

MS. ALIZADEH:

I want to clarify whether

22

or not they needed more tasers in the Ferguson

23

Police Department or should have is certainly

24

something that needs to be addressed at this point,

25

but for this incident, Chief, you're aware that,

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXI

November 13,2014

Page 200
1

you're now aware that Officer Wilson did not have a

taster on his person; is that right.

Yes.

(By Ms. Alizadeh) Were officers required

to carry a taster at that time?

No.

So was it up to the individual officers to

8
9

decide whether he was going to carry a taser?


A

Pretty much, yes.

This is a less lethal

10

may be used and precisely we didn't have enough for

11

everybody.

12

Is it possible that there could be more

13

officers working a shift than there would be tasers

14

available for that shift?

15

officers working and maybe at the time you only have

16

five tasers that were actually working at the time?

17
18
19
20

In other words, maybe six

That is possible.

I don't know if that

was the case here.


Q

But regardless, we know now he didn't have

a taser with him?

21

Yes.

22

And that wasn't required at the time?

23

No.

24

MS. ALIZADEH:

Anybody else?

25

FAX 314-241-6750

What is

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXI

November 13,2014

Page 201
1

your protocol when it comes for one of your police

officers, maybe another scene just happened on

August the 9th, do you, was it your own authority or

opinion not to speak to him about what happened at

the scene or was you instructed?

No, ma'am, it was my decision to turn the

entire investigation over to St. Louis County Police

Department and to separate myself, my detectives

from that.

I just believe 35 years in law

10

enforcement we not only have to be impartial and

11

fair, but there also has to be no appearance of

12

impropriety.

13

It just seems like an agency, I came

14

from a very big police department, moved to a very

15

small police department.

16

department and it just seems that the department

17

that size needs to move something this critical like

18

a fatal officer shooting to a larger law enforcement

19

agency or particularly a different law enforcement

20

agency to handle.

21
22
23

Also I don't believe that


Officer Wilson had mace either, did you know that?
A

24
25

Small, much smaller police

I did not know that.


Are they checked

regularly, whatever they have on their gear, do they

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXI

November 13,2014

Page 202
1

have like a captain like protocol command so someone

checking their uniforms before they leave the

department.

Yes, ma'am, we have roll call and the

supervisor is responsible for making sure of those

things.

I'm going to

go back to what nine has.

Is mace required because

I thought he said he had mace but didn't spray it

10

because it was too close in the vehicle for it not

11

to affect him.

12

If I could say something,

13

I believed the reaction that he

14

gets from it would cause more problem or cause him

15

to be more debilitated.

16
17

That was my question.


Did you recall the he had it or did not?
MS. ALIZADEH:

18

At this point rather than

19

discussing the witness' testimony, I have provided

20

you all the transcript previously because there was

21

a question about another point of another witness'

22

testimony.

23

questions about what his knowledge or information

24

was or the policies or protocols, I'm not cutting

25

you off from asking that question, but talking about

FAX 314-241-6750

So if you want to ask this witness

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXI

November 13,2014

Page 203
1

what other people might have said, probably better

to go back and refer to the transcript.

Mace is not required?

Mace is issued to each officer so they

are,

issued equipment is expected to be carried but

it is going to be largely to the officers discretion

which item to use.

very close quarters use pepper mace.

For example,

9
10
11

But you would expect your


officer to have it on him?
A

I would expect.

12
13

I would not be in

When he's on patrol?


A

Yes.

14

So in

15

your career in law enforcement have you ever been

16

dealt with or been involved in any way in other

17

officer involved shooting?

18

Yes.

19

So my kind of question

20

onto that is, in other words, there was talk about

21

how the officer left the scene in this incident.

22

left by himself in Sergeant

23

back to the station to wash his hands,

24

typical protocol?

25

don't know,

FAX 314-241-6750

He

vehicle, went
is that some

Should he have been escorted?

I'd just like to know.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXI

November 13,2014

Page 204
1

That's news to me too, but I would of had

someone else take him to the station.

I certainly

had someone else take him to the hospital.


If you could, maybe, in

your role in your experience before working at

Ferguson, what was the relationship with the

community, the police department in the community.

In my four years there excellent.

We have

nine community associations, neighborhood

10

associations in Ferguson.

11

acquainted with all the members of those.

12

lot of their meetings.

13

give them crime updates every month at their

14

meetings.

15

And I'm very well


Go to a

I send my officers there to

I attend all the events,

I sing the

16

national anthem for them at the 4th of July and the

17

beginning of the 5K run that we have every year.

18

is a very active, involved community.

19

MS. WHIRLEY:

It

What about Canfield Green,

20

the folks that live in the Canfield Green

21

Apartments, are they involved in these associations

22

and active with the police?

23

We were trying very hard to get

24

associations over there and neighborhood watches

25

over there.

FAX 314-241-6750

We went over, it is a big complex as

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXI

November 13,2014

Page 205
1

you probably know.

Northwinds Estates, runs into Oakmont, they are all,

it is a very dense community.

get neighborhood watch in there.

Canfield Green runs into the

So we were trying to

So we do things such as we have

resource displays where we bring the dogs,

firetrucks and the officers over there and everyone,

every resident gets a copy of the Ferguson Times

that says all the events are happening, things like

10

that.

11

It has been difficult to get a

12

neighborhood association going over in there.

13

MS. WHIRLEY:

14

Why do you think that is?

Probably a lot of it has to do with the

15

transient population.

16

there for long periods of time, so they don't get

17

deeply involved in the community.

18

People don't plan on living

But we also did several things with

19

all of those apartments, you know, try to improve

20

quality of life and reduce crime in those areas.

21

were very involved in there.

22
23
24

MS. WHIRLEY:
have,

We

How many officers do you

I don't know if you said that already.


A

25

FAX 314-241-6750

Total of 55, including myself.


MS. WHIRLEY:

55.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXI

November 13,2014

Page 206
1

Yes, ma'am.
MS. WHIRLEY:

Were you concerned or did

you have any thoughts about the information that we

now know and you may know,

said the initial contact with Michael Brown was when

Officer Wilson told them to get out of the middle of

the street and then he backed up,

point he may have known about this stealing at the

Ferguson Market, he backs up, and, you know, he's

10

confronting Michael Brown and Dorian Johnson from

11

his car.

12

standard is to sit in your car and investigate a

13

potential robbery or stealing.

14
15

I guess at this

Is that something that's pretty much

No, it is my understanding is that he was

trying to get out of his car.

16
17

I don't know, that as you

MS. WHIRLEY:
A

But again, this is, you know,

18

third hand information.

19

the evidence.

20

Okay.

MS. WHIRLEY:

second,

I have not asked for any of

You would be, you would

21

think that he would get out of the car if he was

22

going to do any investigation?

23

Yes, ma'am.

24
25

To
follow-up on that question there, when is it

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXI

November 13,2014

Page 207
1

appropriate,

suspects and you put your car in reverse, would it

be,

your sirens, your flashing lights and turn your

lights on to let,

something is going on here?

I guess, if you notice these two

I guess, okay to put your sirens on or not even

I guess, the community know

Not necessarily.

be either a bad or good thing, it is neutral.

9
10
11

I don't think that would

Even with traffic kind of


coming both ways there?
A

If it is going to be blocking traffic in

12

the street, yeah, that would probably be

13

appropriate, yes, sir.

14

In regards to field

15

training,

16

previous comment, when he pulled back in reverse,

17

from Officer Wilson's perspective and others, he

18

says himself he impeded their traffic, he backed his

19

car up to prevent them from going anywhere.

20

also, is that protocol, is that something you would

21

expect an officer to do,

22

in that manner?

23

I have a question continuing on the

Is that

kind of use the vehicle to

To use the vehicle?

24

When he backed up, put it

25

in reverse as we now understand, he kind of thought

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXI

November 13,2014

Page 208
1

these suspects are involved in the robbery, he backs

the car up to impede the way they were walking.

was in there way essentially.

That would be appropriate, sure.


That would be appropriate?

5
6

Yeah.
This is

You

had experience with police officer involved

shootings before?

10

Yes, ma'am.

11

Is this the first time

12

you had any experience with a police officer

13

involved shooting in Ferguson?

14

It

Uh, fatal shooting, yes.

15

You said you didn't

16

realize how things were handled after he went back

17

to the station by himself, he washed his hands and

18

everything, and so I was just wondering if, and you

19

said you didn't know that, but is that not the way

20

you would, you would have expected that to be

21

handled?

22

Right, but in this particular case, I

23

separated myself from all of this.

24

have to do my own investigation, internal affairs,

25

when this is over.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

I'm going to

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXI

November 13,2014

Page 209
1
2

I've got one more


question.

3
4

In one of your press conferences,

, you state that evidence was found on


Michael Brown from the robbery.

Yeah,

I saw that too.

I'm not sure I

understood the question.

I didn't have any

knowledge of that one way or another, particularly

then.

When

10

you were in the academy, what was your training on

11

deadly force, when to use it and how much to use it

12

if you are confronted with an adversary and had to

13

fire your weapon?

14

We're going back to the police academy,

15

that's quite a ways essentially.

16

MS. ALIZADEH:

Let me ask something else

17

along the same lines.

18

your department train your officers on when they can

19

use force to affect an arrest and when they can use

20

deadly force?

21

22

Does your office, or does

Yes, ma'am.
MS. ALIZADEH:

Other than what they learn

23

at the police academy, anything that your department

24

instructs them about?

25

FAX 314-241-6750

Yes, ma'am.

That's really continuing

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXI

November 13,2014

Page 210
1

education.

where it includes firearms training, deadly force

training every year.

both state and federal law and Supreme Court

decisions that sometimes change circumstances and

deadly force.

The post-training they are required

A lot of it is dictated by

Fleeing felon rule,

(By Ms. Alizadeh)

for example.

So let me ask,

I know

and maybe this hasn't been testified about, but

officers have to get continuing education to

10

maintain their certification every year; is that

11

right?

12

Yes, ma'am.

13

So every year officers have to have so

14

many hours of continuing education, correct?

15

Correct.

16

And that's put on by various organizations

17

and entities, would that be fair to say?

18

Yes, ma'am.

19

And so there might be other entities that

20

would give additional instruction or training on use

21

of force to affect an arrest and the use of deadly

22

force, but my question is, does your department

23

itself train or instruct the officer, or is there

24

any kind of formalized training in your department,

25

put on by your department about use of force?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXI

November 13,2014

Page 211
1

Yes, ma'am.

And is that done as like in the form of

giving them some written materials, or is that done

as in some kind of class setting?

We have our own firearms range, it is an

inside range.

in-house.

8
9
10
11

All of our firearms training is done

So it is done annually.
Do you have a particular officer who then

does the instruction on using force during an arrest


to affect an arrest or the use of deadly force?
A

That's through the continuing education.

12

That would be through the police academy or North

13

County Chiefs Association Training, or outside

14

training, that's all part of continuing education.

15

And so the firearms training you're

16

talking about, that's in relation to them being able

17

to handle a weapon and how to shoot the weapon and

18

store the weapon and so forth,

correct?

19

Yes, ma'am.

20

So does your department have any written

21

literature that talks about use of force to affect

22

an arrest and the use of deadly force?

23

Yes, ma'am.

24

So your department has general orders?

25

Yes, ma'am.

FAX 314-241-6750

We have general orders.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXI

November 13,2014

Page 212
1

Is it a requirement of all of your

officers to study those general orders and to know

those general orders?

Yes, ma'am.

And those general orders are written by

Urn, when I got there four and a half years

who?

ago,

set out to mirror, to get a complete general orders

I was not satisfied with the policy manual so I

10

manual policies and procedures for an agency our

11

size that mirrored CALEA.

12

What's CALEA?

13

The Commission For Accreditation of Law

14

Enforcement Agencies, it is international.

15

very expensive to get that done.

16

the State of Missouri certification process, which

17

takes several years.

18

It is

So I started with

We developed a complete general

19

orders manual, so as those general orders came out,

20

the officers were required to and often times we

21

would have supervisors or officers present training,

22

train each other on those general orders.

23

Okay.

So you have a specific general

24

order regarding the use of force to effect an arrest

25

and the use of deadly force during an arrest?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXI

November 13,2014

Page 213
1

Yes, ma'am.

Could we get a copy of that general orders

as necessary?

Yes.

If the grand jurors wanted it?


MS. WHIRLEY:

Excuse me,

I just want to

ask for the orders.

the protocol would be after a shooting has occurred?

10
11

Urn,

Are there any orders as to what

I'm trying to think.

MS. WHIRLEY:
Q

Yes, there are.

Okay.

(By Ms. Alizadeh) And so you said that the

12

general orders that once you took over you were kind

13

of revamping them?

14

Yes.

15

That's my word, revamping.

16

In doing so,

were you trying to make them compliant with the law.

17

Yes.

18

And you also said that you were attempting

19

to have them hear other possible state

20

organizations' policy and so forth?

21
22

organization that I could.

23
24

Yes, to create the most professional

MS. ALIZADEH:

Sheila, do you have any

more question?

25

FAX 314-241-6750

MS. WHIRLEY:

No, okay.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXI

November 13,2014

Page 214
1

I heard both

of you use the phrase use of weapon to affect an

arrest and use of deadly force.

what the difference between those two are?


MS. ALIZADEH:

Can you tell me

I had said use of force to

affect an arrest and then use of a deadly weapon,

use of deadly force.


Okay.

9
10
11

about in the media, can you tell me the difference


between those two?
A

12
13
14

We've heard a lot

Between use of force?


MS. WHIRLEY:

Use of force to affect an

arrest and use of deadly force.


A

Okay.

Force actually in the force

15

continuum which is taught in the academy starts with

16

the presence of the uniform.

17
18

Okay.
A

Then it goes to hands on, maybe just

19

compliance holds, and then it can go to fighting.

20

Then you have less lethal option such as the taser,

21

bean bang rounds, pepper mace, there's also stick

22

batons, those are all not considered, for example,

23

the baton and the taser are considered less lethal.

24

There's a possibility that they could be, but it is

25

considered less lethal weapon.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXI

November 13,2014

Page 215
1

And then finally when you get to

deadly force,

continuum.

that would be a firearm in the

Tell me, are the officers

taught where to shoot specifically if they have to

get to that point?

Yes, ma'am.
And it is never in the

9
10

lower extremity?
A

No, it is not.

11
12
13

It is always in the upper


part of the body?
A

Yes, ma'am.

14
15

So that's their training?


A

Yes, ma'am.

16

In your

17

policies or procedures, is there anything ever

18

addressed or have you seen it addressed in your four

19

years there when you are affecting or potentially

20

trying to detain somebody or affect an arrest,

21

ever mentioned trying to grab somebody out a car

22

window to detain them?

23

No, no.

24
25

is it

Have you ever heard that?


A

FAX 314-241-6750

No.

Generally the force necessary to

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXI

November 13,2014

Page 216
1

affect the arrest is what the standard is.

Okay.

But not

specifically, whatever you do, wherever you are

potentially to reach out a car window and detain

somebody?

No.
MS. ALIZADEH:

Chief

would you

expect one of your officers to attempt to arrest a

suspect simply because they were walking in the

10
11

middle of the street?


A

Arrest, no.

I would expect that they

12

would ask them to move to the sidewalk.

13

they refused, they can be issued a summons for that.

14

Much like a traffic ticket.

15

And then if

Race is not

16

mentioned today in our conversation, but I would

17

like to know what the officer thought or assume as a

18

white officer and a black suspect?

19
20

Can I ask you, my years of flying a

helicopter, that ear is not

21

Race has been a huge

22

factor, what the officer assumed or thought of the

23

suspect before he saw him.

24

is, one, do you feel like your department racially,

25

the kind of racial diversity, does that reflect the

FAX 314-241-6750

So my question to you

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXI

November 13,2014
Page 217

1
2

Ferguson community or not?


A

I think that I've made an effort since I

got there to increase racial diversity because of

the make up of the community.

with an agency my size.

It is very difficult

I did, probably heard me say this,

when I got there, there had never been an

African-American supervisor on the police

department.

I promoted the first two in the

10

history,

I'm very proud of that.

11

hard to recruit minority candidates, but again,

12

Louis County, there's St. Louis City, there's

13

Missouri State Highway Patrol, there is federal

14

agencies,

15

retain.

you know,

16
17
18

And I've tried


St.

it is difficult to recruit and

So knowing that and


knowing that's an area for growth.
A

Yes.

19

Would you say with your

20

department,

21

action taken to help educate on social diversity or

22

how to interact with those maybe, whether it is

23

beliefs or whatever that may be,

24

department wide.

25

FAX 314-241-6750

is there any steps in place or any

anything you do

It is a state requirement that all

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXI

November 13,2014

Page 218
1

officers receive that type of training as part of

their recertification every three years.

is annual racial profiling or diversity training

which is required.
MS. WHIRLEY:

So there

And there's a lot of other

training that's out there.

Recently we, of course, we doubled our

efforts.

Some of my commanders just attended a

really good bias policing training put on by the

10

Cops Program.

I have met with the National Director

11

from Cops and we talked a lot about some of the new

12

and young and exciting training in adversity that's

13

out there, but this training actually had citizens

14

and police officers in the training.

15

good environment.

16

It was a real

Okay.

17

MS. ALIZADEH:

Anybody else have any

18

questions regarding this witness and his knowledge

19

about the incident, his press conferences in

20

particular?

21

Okay.

(End of the testimony of Chief

22

MS. WHIRLEY:

It is the afternoon of

23

November 10th, approximately 3:12 p.m.

24

Whirley, present is Kathi Alizadeh, all 12 jurors

25

and

FAX 314-241-6750

, the court reporter.

I'm Sheila

We're going to play

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXI

November 13,2014

Page 219
1

some of the recorded statements that still need to

be played.

has the recorded statement of

Kathi is passing out the transcripts for that.

We have Grand Jury Exhibit Number 49,


and

After we played that, we're going to play

a statement by an interview with

and that's Grand Jury Exhibit Number 84.

he's the one that was here last week and said he did

not tell the truth when he called in to a show.

You recall

10

we will play that and you can hear more from him

11

then.

12

So

As soon as all the transcripts are

13

distributed we will start the statement.

14

look like it is very long.

15

is.

It doesn't

I'm not sure how long it

It is ten minutes and 41 seconds.

16

MS. ALIZADEH:

Just for the record,

I'm

17

going to excuse myself for a little bit here and so

18

Sheila will remain in the room while this is being

19

played.

20

(Playing of the interview of

21
22

(End of the Grand Jury Hearing Volume XXI.)

23
24

State of Missouri

25

FAX 314-241-6750

SS.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXI

November 13,2014

Page 220
1
2

County of St. Louis


I,

, a Licensed Certified Court

Reporter by the Supreme Court in and for the State

of Missouri, duly commissioned, qualified and

authorized to administer oaths and to certify to

depositions, do hereby certify that pursuant to

Notice in the civil cause now pending and

undetermined in the County of St. Louis, State of

Missouri.

10

The said witness, being of sound mind and being

11

by the grand jury first carefully examined and duly

12

cautioned and sworn to testify to the truth, the

13

whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the case

14

aforesaid, thereupon testified as is shown in the

15

foregoing transcript, said testimony being by me

16

reported in shorthand and caused to be transcribed

17

into typewriting, and that the foregoing page

18

correctly sets forth the testimony of the

19

aforementioned witness, together with the questions

20

propounded by counsel and grand jurors thereto, and

21

is in all respects a full,

22

complete transcript of the questions propounded to

23

and the answers given by said witness.

24
25

true,

correct and

I further certify that the foregoing pages


contain a true and accurate reproduction of the

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXI

November 13,2014

Page 221
1
2

proceedings.
I further certify that I am not of counselor

attorney for either of the parties to said suit, not

related to nor interested in any of the parties or

their attorneys.

6
7

8
9

10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXI

November 13,2014

Page 222
1

COURT MEMO

2
3
4

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

6
7

CERTIFICATE OF OFFICER AND

STATEMENT OF DEPOSITION CHARGES

10
11

DEPOSITION OF Grand Jury Volume XXI

12
13

11/10/2014

14

Name and address of person or firm having custody of

15

the original transcript:

16
17

St. Louis County Prosecuting Office

18

100 South Central, 2nd floor

19

Clayton, MO 63105

20
21
22
23
24
25

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXI

November 13,2014

Page 223
1

ORIGINAL TRANSCRIPT TAXED IN FAVOR OF:

2
3

St. Louis County Prosecuting Office

100 South Central, 2nd floor

Clayton, MO 63105

Total:

8
9

10
11
12
13
14

15
16
17
18
19

20
21
22
23
24
25

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXI

November 13,2014
Page 224

Upon delivery of transcripts, the above

charges had not been paid.

that all charges will be paid in the normal course

of business.

GORE PERRY GATEWAY & LIPA REPORTING COMPANY

515 Olive street, Suite 700

st. Louis, Missouri 63101

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set

STATEMENT OF DEPOSITION CHARGES

10

my hand and seal on this

11

Commission expires

It is anticipated

day of

12

13

Notary Public

14

15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24

25

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

Case: State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury Volume XXII


Date: November 11, 2014

This transcript is printed on 100% recycled paper

515 Olive Street, Suite 300


St. Louis, MO 63101
(314) 241-6750
1-800-878-6750
Fax: (314) 241-5070
Email: schedule@goreperry.com
Internet: < <www.goreperry.com >>

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 1

STATE OF MISSOURI

VS.

DARREN WILSON

GRAND JURY

November 11, 2014

VOLUME XXII

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014
Page 2

IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF ST. LOUIS COUNTY

STATE OF MISSOURI

STATE OF MISSOURI

5
6

vs.

DARREN WILSON

10
11

12

The following is a hearing before the Grand

13

Jury of St. Louis County, at the offices of St.

14

Louis County Prosecuting Attorney's Office, 100

15

South Central Avenue,

16

of Missouri, on the 11th day of November,

17

before

in the City of Clayton, State


2014,

18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 3
1

APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:

2
3

FOR THE STATE:

Ms. Kathi Alizadeh & Ms. Sheila Whirley

Assistant Prosecuting Attorneys for St. Louis

County

100 South Central Avenue, 2nd Floor

Clayton, MO 63105

(314)

615-2600

10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 5
GRAND JURY HEARING VOLUME XXII

MS. ALIZADEH:

Good morning.

It is

November 11th, Happy Veterans Day everybody, and it

is 8:42 a.m.
So we had originally planned we were going

to go to 2:30 today.

As I've mentioned to you in

the past because we are drawing kind of near the

end, it is difficult sometimes for me to get enough

people to fill your day.

Today might be one of

10

those days where we get done early.

11

I had scheduled an officer to come in at 8:30 this

12

morning, he was going to talk to you about he

13

actually measured Darren Wilson's car and so forth

14

and photographed it.

15

But originally

He called me on the way to work this

16

morning he said he's a crime scene detective and he

17

is right now at a crime scene.

18

could push his testimony off three or four hours.

19

said, well, just text me when you're done and we'll

20

see where we are.

21

And so he asked if I
I

I have photographs that he took of the

22

vehicle and then I also have a sheet of paper that

23

actually was, I think, emailed to me quite some time

24

ago with the measurements on it that he had taken.

25

Urn, and so what I would propose to do is

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 6
1

that I believe it might be helpful for you to have

those things prior to going down and looking at the

car, just for your own sake.

And so if anybody has an objection to

that, you know, I would like to hear.

My thought

was I could give you those photographs and the

measurements and then you all can go look at the

car.

questions for that officer, you know, we can get him

And then when you come back, if you have

10

in later this morning and you can ask questions

11

about what he did.

12

You know the only thing he was going to

13

testify to, yeah, I took these photographs and,

14

yeah, I took these measurements.

15

unless you had additional questions for him, that's

16

kind of, you know what I mean, it is not like really

17

earth shattering.

18

So, you know,

So that's my proposal that if you are

19

ready, I will get that stuff for you because I

20

didn't bring it in here yet to make a copy of

21

measurements for everybody.

22

Pass the photographs around so you can

23

kind of look at them before you go out there and

24

then you go out and examine the vehicle and you take

25

the time that you need to do that.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 7
1

Our investigator has made, he has a couple

of steps that he made so he'll give you those for

you to use if you want to do some of your own

investigation.

the field training officer for Darren Wilson when he

was an officer at Jennings.

little bit ago, I contacted him, he is coming in at

10:30.

And then at 10:30, I have scheduled

You asked about that a

I will probably do a very brief

10

questioning of him and what his duties and

11

responsibilities are, and then you can ask him

12

questions that you think you need to ask.

13

And then I have, we have the physician's

14

assistant coming in.

She can't be here till 1:00.

15

Again, we maybe have a gap there and so she will be

16

here at 1:00 and she will be the last witness of the

17

day.
Urn, in the meantime, while you're gone

18

19

examining the vehicle, Sheila and I talked about it

20

and we thought we don't have actually the physical

21

evidence over here at our office yet.

22

plan before this is all done you are going to be

23

able to look at things that you want to look at.

24

There's, we're not going to have discs

25

That is a

brought over, there is no point in looking at a disc

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 8
1

because there are lot of discs in evidence.

We do have the clothing of Michael Brown,

which is, as you would imagine is bloody, it is

dried, but it is still bloody.

and in a box.

but if you all want to open the box and look at it,

we're going to have to get you gloves and masks and

stuff like that to do that.

Those are packaged

We'll bring that box over for you,

But everything else that is in evidence

10

like the gun, shell casings, the bullets, things

11

that, you know, the sandals, the bracelets, you

12

know, things that were seized, we're going to have

13

those all in a room for you to examine as much as

14

you want.

15

And then in the meantime, though, I

16

thought Sheila and I had said it might be time, that

17

you could spend working while you are gone examining

18

the vehicle, I could put out a lot of these

19

photographs that we've seen over time, crime scene

20

photographs, and that way, you know, as you are

21

sitting here, if we're waiting for the next witness,

22

you all can kind of pass those around and look at

23

them at your leisure or talk about them just so

24

you're not sitting here twiddling your thumbs.

25

FAX 314-241-6750

And then have you all thought any more,


Gore Perry Reporting and Video
314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 9
1

because like I said, we are nearing the end.

there any additional witnesses that you think you

need to hear from or would like me to try to get in,

other than as I mentioned, we're still, there is

still about four or five lay people who, you know,

have given some kind of statement in the past about

having seen something, we are trying to get them in.

8
9

Are

So we mayor may not get all or none of


them in before this is over, but is there anyone

10

else that y'all would like to hear from or if you

11

would like to recall a witness, we'll need to know

12

so I can get that scheduled before, you know, we

13

conclude everything.

14

So y'all can talk about that while you are

15

looking at photographs and stuff too.

If there is

16

any additional people you like or again, if you want

17

to hear all of the witnesses' testimony is on an

18

audio disc.

19

want to review somebody's testimony while you're

20

here, we can certainly play that for you or just

21

give you a transcript or whatever you need to review

22

things, okay.

We have transcripts of that, so if you

23

So with that being said, I guess we'll

24

take a recess or brief break now while everybody

25

gets their coats on and I'll get

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

and

and

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 10
1

we'll get you over there to look at the vehicle.

And just so you all understand for the

record, this is not Darren Wilson's vehicle, this is

another Tahoe that's the same make, year and model

as Darren Wilson's because the door, as I explained,

is still not on Darren Wilson's vehicle, but the

measurements that I have, actually, don't get your

coats on yet.

pictures and the measurements.

10

I told you I was going to get you the

So we'll take a recess now and I'll go get

11

those and when you are ready to go over and look at

12

the vehicle, we'll get

13

and

to take.

Okay.

14

(Recess)

15

MS. ALIZADEH:

Good morning.

This is

16

Kathi Alizadeh, it is November 11th.

17

is here, all 12 grand jurors are here and the court

18

reporter is taking down what's being said.

19

Sheila Whirley

So this morning y'all went over, went to

20

look at the police vehicle.

21

year and model as Darren Wilson's vehicle or the

22

vehicle he was driving on August 9th.

23

That is the same make,

You all had plenty of time to do that.

Is

24

there anybody that felt they didn't get to see what

25

they wanted to see?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 11
Also, prior to you all going out there, we

had planned for our witness to testify who actually

photographed and measured, took certain measurements

on Darren Wilson's vehicle.

this morning prior to you seeing that, but the crime

scene detective was actually called to a crime scene

this morning.

don't have any questions for him?

know he doesn't need to come in.

10

He was going to testify

So it is my understanding that you


So I will let him

Right now we're waiting for our next

11

witness.

12

photos that have already been, not introduced, but

13

you all have seen them, but I passed them out so if

14

you all wanted to look at them again.

15

So in the meantime I passed out some

I've also given out a another transcript

16

that contains Darren Wilson's testimony and then

17

there was also a request to hear again Grand Jury

18

Exhibit 59, which is a disc that contains a video

19

audio file that a witness,

20

actually talking on Glide, an app that allows you to

21

talk in realtime.

22

some of the gunshots.

23

were two shots before he began the recording.

24

there was a request to play that again.

25

FAX 314-241-6750

was

He inadvertently had recorded


If you recall, he said there

It is in a loop.

So

So if we don't stop it,

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 12
1

it will do it allover again.

go and when you all have heard enough, you let us

know and we'll just stop it.

So we'll just let it

(Playing of the audio recording.)

of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to

testify the truth, the whole truth, and

nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid,

deposes and says in reply to oral

10

interrogatories, propounded as follows,

11
12
13
14

15

to-wit:

EXAMINATION
BY MS. ALIZADEH:
Q

Could you state your name and spell it for

the court reporter, please?

16
17

Where are you employed, sir?

18

I'm employed at the City of Jennings as a

19

lieutenant in the corrections department and I'm

20

also employed at Velda City as a police officer.

21

And so you a commissioned police officer?

22

Yes, ma'am.

23

How long have you been a police officer?

24

Since 1997.

25

So did you graduate from the St. Louis

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 13
1

County Police Academy or from a different police

academy?

I went to Eastern Missouri, which is in

St. Charles County.


Q

Okay.

Yes, ma'am, December of 1997.

And what was your first job out of the

And did you graduate from there in

1997?

police academy.

10

Worked at the City of Pine Lawn.

11

How long were you a Pine Lawn police

12
13
14
15
16

officer?
A

worked there on two different occasions.

First time I was there approximately a year.


Q

After you were there for a year, were you

a police officer in Pine Lawn?

17

Yes, ma'am.

18

Where did you go after that?

19

City of Normandy.

20

How long were you a police officer in

21

Normandy?

22

Yes, ma'am.

23

How long were you a police officer there?

24

Approximately nine years.

25

Following then did you go back to Pine

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 14
1

Lawn at that point?

Yes, ma'am.

How long were you with Pine Lawn again?

For a year.

And then after that where did you go?

The City of Jennings.

And how long did you work as a police

officer for the City of Jennings?

Approximately three years.

10

And were you a road officer during that

11

time period?

12

Yes, ma'am.

13

And when you were with the City of

14

Jennings, were you ever a field training officer?

15

Yes, ma'am.

16

Prior to the year being a field training

17

officer in the City of Jennings, were you ever a

18

field training officer at any of the other police

19

departments where you were employed?

20

Yes, ma'am.

21

All right.

22

So when is it that you first

became a field training officer?

23

When I worked for the City of Normandy.

24

Is there any additional training or any

25

tests or any other qualifications that you need to

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 15
1

have other than having graduated from the police

academy in order to be a field training officer?

There's no legal requirements, most

departments have policies.

it.

police academy, they have the field training course,

usually a week long.

There is no testing for

The academy, the police academy, you go to the

So there is a field training course with

the police academy?

10

Yes, ma'am.

11

Did you take that?

12

Yes, ma'am.

13

All right.

And so when you become a field

14

training officer, what are your duties and

15

responsibilities.

16

correct?

You are still a police officer,

17

Yes, ma'am.

18

You still patrol and enforce the laws of

19

your municipality or the community, correct?

20

Yes, ma'am.

21

But what additional duties and

22
23

responsibilities does a field training officer have?


A

When you get, a new officer is hired in,

24

you take them and you are responsible for them and

25

instructions on doing the job as a police officer.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 16
1

Also policies and procedures of your agency and to

mentor them to become successful police officers.

4
5

6
7

All right.

How long did you do that for

the City of Normandy?


A

didn't do it continuously because I went

to different positions for about two years though.


Q

And then after leaving Normandy, you went

back to Pine Lawn for about a year.

you a field training officer in Pine Lawn?

Did you, were

10

No, ma'am.

11

And then after that, you went to Jennings

12

and you said you were a field training officer in

13

Jennings?

14

Yes, ma'am.

15

And so when a new police officer is

16

assigned to you,

17

it that you are training that officer?

18

for you to be his FTO, how long is

There is different levels of the training.

19

They are under your direct supervision, ride along

20

with you, usually for six weeks and then depending

21

on their performance, you decide whether they are

22

going to be released to a vehicle on their own, but

23

you still shadow them.

24
25

You are still training the officer,


you are still responsible for them.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

They're on

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014
Page 17

probation for up to a year.

responsible for that officer for that whole time.

3
4

You are basically

And so typically an officer might ride

along with you for up to in excess of six weeks?

Yes, ma'am.

Now, these officers that are assigned to

you,

are they commissioned police officers?

Yes, ma'am.

So they've already completed their

10

training at a police academy, they've already been

11

hired by the City of Jennings?

12

Yes, ma'am.

13

How many officers have you mentored or

14

been a field training officer for?

15

I'm guess maybe about ten.

16

And during that time, have they all been

17

brand new police officers fresh out of the police

18

academy?

19

No, ma'am.

20

So sometimes are your trainees already

21

experienced police officers, but they may be new to

22

your municipality?

23

Yes, ma'am.

24

And so you said that they would ride along

25

with you for a minimum of six weeks and then

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 18
1

depending on how you felt they were doing, they

might then have their own cars?

Yes, ma'am.

And then do you always work the same shift

as your trainee?

Yes, ma'am.

And so if they go on a call, do you go

with them on a call?

Yes, ma'am.

10

But in a separate car?

11

Yes, ma'am.

12

So is it your job then to kind of observe,

13

let them handle the call, but to be there to help

14

them or observe how they are doing?

15

Yes, ma'am.

16

And were you the field training officer

17

for Darren Wilson when he was a Jennings Police

18

Officer?

19

Yes, ma'am.

20

And do you remember when he came to

21

Jennings, was this his first job out of the police

22

academy?

23

Yes, ma'am.

24

So he was a brand new police officer?

25

Yes, ma'am.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 19
1

And so did he ride along with you for at

least six weeks before he then got in a vehicle on

his own?

Yes, ma'am.

Okay.

6
7

And just in general, how did you

think he did as a trainee during that six weeks?


A

He did very well.

Out of the officers I

have trained, he was one of those that was probably

a better officer.

10
11

And then after the six weeks were

completed, did he then begin to ride on his own?

12

Yes, ma'am.

13

And did you continue to train him or be

14

his mentor for that first year that he was a police

15

officer in the City of Jennings?

16

Yes, ma'am.

17

Okay.

Now, when a trainee begins to ride

18

on their own, are they allowed to make their own

19

arrests?

20

Yes, ma'am.

21

And so they can function in every way as a

22

police officer in the City of Jennings, except for

23

the fact that they have somebody that's watching

24

over them,

25

FAX 314-241-6750

correct?
Yes, ma'am.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 20
1
2

Did you ever have any concerns about

Officer Wilson having a bad temper?

No, ma'am, no.

Did you ever have any concerns about

Officer Wilson using excessive force during an

arrest?

No, ma'am.

How did you feel he worked with the

9
10

community in the City of Jennings?


A

Urn,

I thought he did very well.

One point

11

that really stands out that I remember distinctly

12

while he was riding with me in the first six weeks,

13

we were having a conversation and he brought up the

14

topic he said, I feel comfortable with the police

15

work side of it, but I have not had much experience

16

in the African-American community, such as the one

17

I'm working in now.

18

community.

19

I haven't been in that

Can you help me with that?


I really thought that that was,

20

admired him for doing that because it is hard for

21

somebody to admit that.

22

in learning about the community he was working in.

23

He took a vested interest

So at the time that he was in the City of

24

Jennings, would you say that the population of

25

Jennings was, the majority of the population were

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 21
1

African-American?

It is, as it is today I would say.

Did you ever witness him being what you

consider inappropriate as far as anything that you

thought was racist that he might do or say?

No, ma'am.

Now,

I explained to you that there was an

interest of the grand jurors coming in and asking

you some questions, so I'm done asking questions.

10

Sheila, do you have any questions?

11

MS. WHIRLEY:

12

So tell me how long did you work at

13
14
15

18

19

22

Within my first year they had me start

training at the end of my first year.


MS. WHIRLEY:

Okay.

Your first year.

Did

you have to be on probation for a year.


A

I was still on probation when I started

training officers.

20
21

I do have just a few.

Jennings before you became a field training officer?

16
17

Yeah,

MS. WHIRLEY:

You were on probation, but

serving as a field training officer?


A

23

Yes, ma'am.
MS. WHIRLEY:

Okay.

And you mention that

24

you had been a field training officer at Normandy,

25

which was before you went to Jennings?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 22
1

2
3
4

Yes, ma'am.
MS. WHIRLEY:

How long did you work at

Normandy before becoming a field training officer.


A

Uh, probably about three years.


MS. WHIRLEY:

Okay.

And you were a field

training officer at Normandy,

I think you said, for

two years.

MS. WHIRLEY:

10
11

14

19

Patrolman.
MS. WHIRLEY:

What's your rank now?

Patrolman.
MS. WHIRLEY:

How long have you been a

police officer?
A

20
21

What was your rank as a

field straining officer in Jennings?

17
18

Just patrolman.
MS. WHIRLEY:

15
16

What was your rank when you

field training officer in Normandy?

12
13

Yes, ma'am.

Since '97.
MS. WHIRLEY:

22

'97.

Okay.

I worked last night.


MS. WHIRLEY:

Okay.

What did you teach or

23

verify that Officer Wilson was proficient at?

24

mean, you were his field training officer for six

25

weeks, how did you verify that he knew what he was

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 23
1
2

doing well enough to let him be on his own?


A

In the City of Jennings as a field

training officer it was computer based program, it

has specific goals, also specific topics that were

covered.

state law, your policies, your procedures and also

went over the reports, like fraud report, so you had

all of that.

You know, like constitutional law, your

It was already lined out for you.


And there was three things that you

10

had to do, you had to explain that to the officer

11

that you were training.

12

The second one was that they had to

13

be able to articulate it back to you and then the

14

third was they I had to actually see them perform

15

that duty.

16

MS. WHIRLEY:

A lot of that is done in the

17

police academy, is that not correct?

You have

18

constitutional law, criminal law, report writing,

19

same thing you just mentioned?

20

Correct.

21

Actually happened in the police academy?

22

Correct.

23

So you're just kind of verifying that he

24
25

knows how to do it once he hits the streets?


A

FAX 314-241-6750

Correct.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 24
1

Now, do you write an assessment or some

type of evaluation after the training of the

officer?

Again, that's all in that computer based

program that the City of Jennings has every day.

You did a daily observation report and you would go

through the list and put the date in what you did

that day.

at the end you signed off on that officer.

I don't remember weekly or monthly, but


You

10

signed off after six weeks stating that they are

11

ready to go on to be shadowed, as we call it.

12
13
14

MS. WHIRLEY:
Wilson?
A

15
16
17

You did sign off on Officer

Yes.
MS. WHIRLEY:

He met every benchmark that

he was supposed to meet?


A

Yes, ma'am.
MS. WHIRLEY:

18

Did you train more than one

19

trainee at a time when you were training Officer

20

Wilson or did you just train Officer Wilson.

21
22

officer.

23
24

No, ma'am, we never train more than one

MS. WHIRLEY:
A

25

FAX 314-241-6750

Just one at a time?

Yes, ma'am.
MS. WHIRLEY:

And what time period was it

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 25
1

that you were field training officer for Officer

Wilson.

MS. WHIRLEY:

5
6

10

Okay.

And were there ever

any complaints from the residents about him?


A

I never had any issues with him or none

were brought to me.


MS. WHIRLEY:

He started with us in 2009, mid 2009.

So it is possible there

were, but you don't know?


A

11

Correct.
MS. WHIRLEY:

Okay.

And you already

12

answered no complaints about excessive use of force,

13

correct?

14

15

No, ma'am, none.


MS. WHIRLEY:

What did you teach, is there

16

anything taught about use of force while you're

17

training officers?

18

Yes, ma'am.

Two things that are big

19

issues with law enforcement.

20

with them pretty much one is use of force.

21

second is your emergency vehicle operations, those

22

are just two things that officers civil liability

23

affects people's lives.

24

your agency at the time, you go over it with them,

25

make sure they have that.

FAX 314-241-6750

You go over right away


The

You get your policy out of

Make sure that they refer

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 26
1

to that any time.

Jennings,

we have mobile data computer terminals.

always look back and look up the policy while you

are on the call or anything of that nature to refer

to.

in our police department,


You can

So you go over that policy and then

for myself,

I would go through scenarios like after

we have been on a call.

I would play the what if

10

game and have him articulate to me what he would

11

have done in this situation.

12

how would you handle it and play the what if game.

13

MS. WHIRLEY:

Okay.

What if this occurred,

So there's written

14

policy and then you kind of do hypotheticals to

15

verify his knowledge of what he knows what he needs

16

to do.

17

What did you or your department do to

18

assist Officer Wilson with working with the

19

African-American community?

20

actually asked you, told you that he wanted to work

21

with the community or he didn't know much about

22

African-Americans and I guess wanted to be a better

23

officer in the African-American community, what kind

24

of assistance was he given?

25

FAX 314-241-6750

You said that he

It wasn't he wasn't familiar with

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 27
1

African-Americans, my whole career I have worked in

the North County area.

experiences.

I was born and raised in the North

County area.

Went over, like I say, experiences

I've encountered.

community.

What is important to the

MS. WHIRLEY:

community?

I would go over my

What is important to the

One of the biggest issues I've seen with

10

young law enforcement they don't take a vested

11

interest in the community.

12
13
14

MS. ALIZADEH:

I'm sorry, I couldn't hear

the last one?


A

They don't take a vested interest in the

15

community they work in.

16

the residences are throughout, not usually in the

17

community you work in.

18

hours a day, you go home.

19

We go to work every day,

And you come there for 12

The residents, that's where they

20

live, that's their home base and it is really

21

important you take a vested interest in that.

22

you do, your job is a lot easier.

23

better with the relations with the residents and on

24

your calls.

25

FAX 314-241-6750

When

I think it is

You understand things.

MS. WHIRLEY:

Tell us what that looks like

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 28
1

taking a vested interest in the community, what does

that look like?

good, but what does it look like?

10

Like what kind of things are

done to take a vested interest in the community.


A

For myself, when I worked in Normandy.


MS. WHIRLEY:

I'm not understanding your question.


MS. WHIRLEY:

I mean, those are words, sounds

I want to know about

Jennings?
A

11

I'm just using a example.


MS. WHIRLEY:

I understand, but this is

12

kind of a specific question because I'm referring to

13

when you mention Officer Wilson wanted to,

14

be a better officer with the African-American

15

community, right?

16

17
18

19
20
21

Uh-huh.
MS. WHIRLEY:

I guess,

That was at Jennings?

Uh-huh.
MS. WHIRLEY:

Now Jennings is very heavily

populated with African-American; is that right?


A

22

Uh-huh.
MS. WHIRLEY:

Before I go back to that

23

question, do you know how many African-American

24

officers were working at Jennings at that time in

25

2009 when you worked there as field training

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 29
1
2

officer?
A

MS. WHIRLEY:

3
4

10

13

I think

I'm sorry?

I think it was in 40.


MS. WHIRLEY:

Out of 40 something

officers, two were African-American?


A

11
12

I don't remember the total number,

MS. WHIRLEY:

Out of how many officers?

it is 40.

6
7

Two officers.

Correct.
MS. WHIRLEY:

Were there any

African-American field training officers?


A

14

No, ma'am.
MS. WHIRLEY:

Okay.

So now going back to

15

the question.

16

help Officer Wilson understand how to work better

17

with the African-American community?

18

What kind of things did you do to

I know you don't want to talk about

19

Normandy, but I was a school resource officer there.

20

In Jennings a lot of the residents that I had as a

21

school resource officer in Normandy were now

22

residents of Jennings.

23

communities on a call.

24
25

I would go to those

One example is female,


health issues.

FAX 314-241-6750

she has mental

And she's fine when she's on her

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 30
1

medications, but at times she's not.

check on her once a week after I had been on a call

there.

not on her medication talk to her and get her back

on medication.

That's taking a vested interest in

the community.

It is not just going to the call and

answering it and writing the report and leaving.

How you doing.

8
9

I would go and

I was able to when she was

It is going back on a stolen car, did


you get your car back, you know, did you get it

10

fixed,

things of that nature.

11

vested interest in the community.

12

MS. WHIRLEY:

13

That's taking a

Okay.

As a school resource officer I was able to

14

show him that he was always teased, everybody knows

15

you.

16

the adopt a student.

17

basketball games.

18

they came up.

19

the community.

When I was a school resource officer,

20

I did

I would take them to the

I took them to those things when

That's taking a vested interest in

MS. WHIRLEY:

This is during your period

21

as field training officer at Jennings with Officer

22

Wilson?

23
24

Correct, and showing him that and those

things.

25

FAX 314-241-6750

MS. WHIRLEY:

Did you ever see Officer

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 31
1

Wilson do some of those things with the

African-American community?
Yeah,

I've seen him buy meals for the

youth,

to the residents, you know.

in that police car, he was out and about in the

community.

I've seen him follow-up on calls, go and talk

MS. WHIRLEY:

He wasn't encompassed

Okay.

Questions?

What type of behavioral

10

screening is there in the academy or maybe you as a

11

trainer, are there warning signs, certain

12

personality types that you would fail them from

13

becoming an officer just because of behavioral

14

issues, you understand?

15

We have,

I know for the City of Jennings

16

you have to go through a psych evaluation before you

17

can even be hired on the department, and that's

18

where that is determined.

19

As far as myself, of course, if you

20

have anger issues.

21

stable, they can't control their emotions or things

22

of that nature.

23

you address those issues.

24

evaluations and you try to see what the remedy would

25

be for that.

FAX 314-241-6750

The person's mental state is not

That's the concern.

That's where

That's in your

Sometimes there's not.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 32
1
2

There's no remedy if you


fail them at that point?

Most definitely.

4
5

Have you ever failed


someone?

I've never had to.

7
8

Have you ever extended a new


officers time with you?

No, ma'am.

10

Never had to do that?

11

No, ma'am.

12

I know you talked about a

13

lot of the goals they have on the computer and you

14

asked the questions, but what do you look for

15

personally.

16

a personal level with a new officer that you might

17

feel would be a concern?

18

Do you look for anything personally on

Biggest thing for me I want to see in an

19

officer the ability to communicate.

20

biggest part of our job communication.

21

that.

22

how are they, do they look outside the box.

23

are the things I look for in an officer.

24
25

That's the
I look for

I want to see can they, the problem solving,


Those

You say you do take


officers, these above and beyond type things.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

You

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 33
1

take them on follow-up calls even though your job as

police officer is over, they see you going back and

making sure that she's taking her meds or whatever.

For me I believe that's still our job as a

police officer,

I don't think it is over.


Your call is over,

sorry,

of my, where did you grow up,

I didn't mean to talk over you.

Florissant area,

I'm

And then out

in North County?

in St. Louis County area.

10

That's it.

11

You know the reason why

12
13
14

Officer Wilson left Jennings?


A

police services, we were all laid off.

15
16
17

Because County got the contract with

You were all laid off?


A

Every officer there was laid off.

They

disbanded the police department.

18

Once Officer Wilson left

19

your field training supervision, did you ever hear

20

of Officer Wilson's behavior among the community in

21

a harsh way or anything, his behavior?

22

23
24
25

Witness it or hear of it?


Yes.

I've never heard anything negative on that

and I worked with him after he was, we still stayed

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014
Page 34

on the same shift.

Are you familiar with a term

that was used, use of force triangle, or use of

force continuum?

Yes,

sir.

Can you describe what that

means?

Basically it is teaching the officers a

suspect can, basically what level of force do you

10

need to use to control the situation.

11

least amount, but to get it done effectively and get

12

compliance.

13

Not using the

To simplify it, you have your just

14

compliance, officer present, they're compliant.

15

That was in the triangle,

16

center.

17

will be physically attack.

18

would be noncompliance.

19

here.

20

to the center of that triangle to where compliance

21

is.

you have that in the

And you have threatening resistent, which


Nonthreatening, which

I'm not moving,

I'm staying

Then you have deadly force, but all goes back

22

You teach the officer, the suspect is

23

who decides what happens.

24

the decision.

25

is reactive on our part.

FAX 314-241-6750

They're the one who makes

Everything within the force continuum


It is a delicate equation,

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 35
1

though, you have to decide what force do I need to

use, but I don't want to use excessive force, but I

don't want to use too little force to where someone

gets hurt also.

Sometimes if you use too less of a

force, then you have to use another avenue, say

mace, you use that.

more forceful.

two encounters, two uses of force.

You should have used something

You have to go to the time that's


Basically where

10

you used your baton from the beginning that would

11

have gotten the compliance.

12

This is something that is

13

taught to the officers in all of their training,

14

academy type of training?

15

That's taught in the academy, there's also

16

continued training.

17

academy in the State of Missouri you have to do 48

18

hours of continuing training every three years.

19

time you have any class using your firearm.

20

defensive tactics or anything, that's brought back

21

up, force continuum, it's also in your policy.

22
23
24

Any time that you go to the

Any

Any

The force continuum?


A

Yes, it is ongoing.

It is an ongoing

process.

25

FAX 314-241-6750

Sure, sure.
Gore Perry Reporting and Video
314-241-6750

In your

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 36
1

experience would it be your opinion to say that in a

very tight compressed time situation that that was

something that an officer would instinctively fall

back onto?

Yes.
Thank you.

MS. ALIZADEH:

I have a question for you.

In either the police academy training or in what you

might train as being a field training officer, if an

10

officer is faced,

11

he makes a decision to use deadly force to react to

12

something that he sees is a threat to himself or the

13

community, is there any training in the police

14

academy or in field training where you, the officer,

15

is taught or instructed to, for example, if you are

16

going to use your firearm to like shoot at their

17

legs or shoot at an area of their body that might

18

not be a fatal shot?

19
20

finds himself in a situation and

In other words
A

All training you are taught to in your

21

firearms training to aim towards center mass to stop

22

the threat.

Your goal, again, is compliance, stop

23

the threat.

It is not to aim for the leg in high

24

stress situation, you're not able to do that

25

physically.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 37
1

Also, in trying to stop the threat,

the only way that the end of use firearm that you

would stop the threat immediately without their

willingness to comply would be something that

strikes the central nervous system.

leg and they are still able to attack you and do

harm to you.

still basically fight for up to 30 seconds easily, a

minute.

10

A shot in the

You can take a shot to the heart and

(By Ms. Alizadeh)

So it is a part of

11

training if you are reacting to a threat that you

12

deem you need to use a firearm to meet that threat,

13

you aim for the center mass?

14

Correct.

When I say center mass, whatever

15

is exposed, whatever you have.

It is not always

16

going to be just the chest, it is going to be

17

whatever is exposed that you are aiming at.

18

We heard about two

19

African-American police officers out of 40

20

something, can you tell me the number of

21

African-Americans that apply?

22

23
24

I don't have that.


You don't know low or high?

25

FAX 314-241-6750

That's all done through human resources.


How about when you were in

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 38
1
2
3

the academy, what was the dynamics?


A

We had no African-American officers in my

academy class.

You said that you were

trained to hit at center mass, okay.

a lot of people in the media talk about why didn't

the police officer just let him run away and put an

all points bulletin on him.

your training as far as not just your safety, but as

10

far as the community, would that be against what you

11

would be taught in the academy,

12

go and get him later?

13

No, ma'am.

And I've heard

Can you tell me about

just let a suspect

That's our job as a police

14

officer to apprehend suspects.

15

has a crime committed or anything, they call us, we

16

are the ones that have to respond while everybody

17

else is trying to get away from the area.

18

duty to protect the community.

19

to when we we're hired.

20

to prevent a suspect from fleeing,

21

further harm to the community.

22

Whenever somebody

It is our

That's what we swear

And in doing so, you have


then they can do

No, you're not taught to shy away

23

from that.

24

know that getting into the profession.

25

FAX 314-241-6750

We always respond, that's our job and we

Can you walk us through the

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 39
1

protocol,

arrest?

kind of step by step protocol of making an

From what part?

I guess the point at which

an officer determines there is a cause for arrest

and then what kind of protocol is going forth?

Each agency has their own policy.

I can

give you a general rundown.

As an officer you

observe or probable cause to believe that a crime

10

has been committed.

And in doing so for speeding,

11

you write them a ticket.

12

policies that you have to arrest people for certain

13

offenses, which even could be something to write a

14

ticket for driving while suspended.

15

the crime, you take your enforcement action.

16

write your report to articulate everything about

17

that incident, the elements of the crime.

Some agencies have

If you observe
You

18

So as far as the arrest part, that's

19

where that comes in when you apprehend the suspect.

20

From there most agencies you go to

21

the station, complete the booking process.

22

in the municipalities the judges have a bond

23

schedule, who has to post bond.

24

on a summons after they are processed and you see if

25

they have warrants, if they have to go to another

FAX 314-241-6750

Usually

Some are released

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 40
1

agency or anything of that nature.

MS. ALIZADEH:

Officer

, let me

ask you a question.

When an officer in your

training, an officer, once the officer makes a

determination that he is going to place the suspect

under arrest,

necessary to affect that arrest given whatever

circumstances he may be presented with.

is he taught to use whatever means is

Yes, ma'am.

10

(By Ms. Alizadeh)

11

So, for example, if you

have a fleeing suspect.

12

Yes, ma'am.

13

Is there any training based on either

14

police academy training or training under a field

15

officer, field training officer where you would give

16

that suspect commands to stop and desist, get down,

17

freeze,

18

the suspect does not, would that, do you have any

19

training on do you then pursue that suspect or do

20

you just let them run away?

21
22

you know, phrases like that.

And then if

You have to look at the totality of the

circumstances of that particular incident.

23

You have to weigh the safety of the

24

community, the safety of the officer.

25

in a vehicle, if their crime doesn't outweigh them

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

For example,

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014
Page 41

running and taking off in the vehicle and us

pursuing them and we hit an innocent victim and

they're killed, does their crime outweigh that?

we don't.

community is greater, then yes,

No,

If the danger that they could cause the


you will pursue.

So someone who is speeding and won't pull

over, you're not going to engage them in a high

speed pursuit?

No, ma'am.

10

But the suspect that you are attempting to

11

pullover,

if he has a warrant for murder in the

12

first degree,

13

or a sexual crime, you might under the circumstances

14

make a determination to pursue that suspect?

a violent offense such as an assault

15

Yes, ma'am.

16

So it is all dependent upon the

17

circumstances, correct?

18

Correct.

19

And officers are trained and taught that

20

they have to very quickly assess the circumstances

21

and use their best discretion and their decision

22

making on whether you pursue that suspect, allow

23

that suspect to get away.

24

to take in order to affect an arrest if you

25

determine to pursue the suspect?

FAX 314-241-6750

And what means you need

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 42
1

Yes, ma'am.

Did you ever have any question about

Officer Wilson's ability to quickly assess a

situation, like was he overly, you know,

are over thinkers, they want to really sit back and

decide, to have time to examine all possibilities

and some people react too quickly without really

giving thought to what they're doing.

concerned that Darren Wilson was either over

some people

Were you ever

10

thinking and might not react appropriately in time

11

or that he was too quick to react without thinking

12

things through?

13

I thought his judgment, he always made

14

sound judgments on his decisions.

Of course, we

15

always go back and look how could we have done it

16

better the next time.

17

handling things, he always had good judgment.

At the time when he is

18

Did you ever observe him to be a bully?

19

No.

20

Or abuse his authority?

21

No, ma'am.

22

Disrespectful to people?

23

No, ma'am.

24
25

FAX 314-241-6750

MS. ALIZADEH:

Anything else.
In that same vein where you

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 43
1

say you may have like,

I guess, someone speeding

away from you, you may say, hey,

Let's give an example,

it is not worth it.


let's say you were

in a residential area and there's cars going in both

directions, people taking their garbage out, be

people walking their dogs and the suspect is running

away.

if you know there is other people around and other

people could get hurt?

10

How would that kind of situation be handled

In a vehicle, the suspect is in a vehicle?

11
12

No, the suspect is walking?


A

What am I stopping them for?

13

Jaywalking.

14
15

MS. ALIZADEH:
what you said?

16
17

Yeah.
A

And they take off on foot?

18
19

For jaywalking, is that

Yes.
A

I would pursue them,

if I'm taking

20

enforcement action and take off on foot,

21

would.

22

where someone has jumped off a high concrete wall on

23

the entrance ramp to a highway,

24

myself in danger to do that for a jaywalking.

25

FAX 314-241-6750

It also depends.

yeah,

I've been in foot pursuits

I'm not going to put

At some point you'll say

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 44
1

well, I mean,

balcony, people here, maybe I shouldn't shoot in

this situation?

I see people here, people on their

I don't know where we got to the shooting

part on this.

fled on foot.

You said simply jaywalking.

Fled on foot.

What actions?

9
10

You had a confrontation and


he runs away on foot?

11
12

You said

I can't play the what if thing game, it

has to be the totality of the circumstances.

13

I'm getting to the part

14

where you have the suspect and you notice that their

15

are traffic, cars, you know this is residential area

16

and there is people on balconies, people could be

17

walking their dog, and people taking their trash

18

out.

19

maybe this is not the best way to pull my gun out or

20

somebody else could get hurt?

And this person is unarmed, would you decide

21
22
23
24

Does he know the person is


unarmed?
A

I can't answer your question not with what

you're saying.

25

FAX 314-241-6750

Maybe I can rephrase it a


Gore Perry Reporting and Video
314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 45
1

little bit.

Wilson when to or when not to open fire in a

residential, to have a different response?

Did you ever teach officer Darren

When you decide to use deadly force,

it is

the threat that you perceive at the time.

in a residential area, at times you will have to

fire in a residential area.

If it is

Okay.

Again, these are vague, you are asking

10

vague when you have a situation.

11

to make a determination on something that you can't

12

do, you have the totality of the circumstances.

13

You are asking me

Okay.

14

Just for jaywalking, would I pull a gun?

15

No.

If I stop somebody for jaywalking and it turns

16

into a physical altercation, it is not a jaywalking

17

any more.

We've gotten beyond that.


The thing also you have to look at

18

19

is, what I perceive that I stop somebody for may not

20

be what that suspect perceives.

21

I know when an officer stopped

22

somebody for a simple speeding, little did he know

23

that guy had just committed an armed robbery at a

24

7-Eleven.

25

a speeding enforcement, but the suspect in his mind

FAX 314-241-6750

So the officer think's he's just going to

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 46
1

thought he was being stopped for the robbery.

that decides the suspects, but for a simple

jaywalking, no, you don't pull your weapon.

when the assault occurred, we are not talking about

jaywalking, jaywalking is irrelevant at that point.

So

But

And we both, two people have

used that speeding example.

somebody over who is speeding and they refuse to

stop, would you take, what would happen, would you

10

just let them go or would you try another means to

11

have them pullover?

12

high speed chase, but would you like try to get in

13

front of them or call somebody else to try to help

14

you or would you just let them go?

15

So if you try to pull

Not necessarily going on a

You use your radio, you put radio traffic

16

out there.

You never would put your vehicle in

17

front of another vehicle for speeding.

18
19

Okay.
A

Your decision to pursue that person for

20

speeding, a lot of times to continue to drive in

21

traffic, you back off, get a license plate or

22

something to go and follow-up on.

23

other agencies, if you have a helicopter above,

24

things of that nature.

25

FAX 314-241-6750

But you use your

When you got to determine


Gore Perry Reporting and Video
314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 47
1

whether or not you want to go on a high speed chase,

that doesn't mean you are going to let that person

get away with it?

5
6

I will not go on a high speed chase just

for speeding,
Q

I will tell you that.

(By Ms. Alizadeh)

I have a question,

Officer

We know a little bit about your

walkie-talkie and the mobile radios in cars, and

does your walkie-talkie have an alert button?

10

Yes, ours do with our agency,

11

And did your walkie-talkie have an alert

12

yes.

button when you were training Officer Wilson?

13

Yes.

14

And is there any instruction or what do

15

you train your officers to do as far as when it is

16

appropriate to use that alert button or not

17

appropriate, or is it just the officer's discretion

18

or what?

19

The alert tone on your radio is used for

20

when you need assistance.

21

officers to respond, you need aid, that is when you

22

use your alert tone.

23

If you feel that you need

If, for example, you have already used

24

your radio to call for assistance, you already

25

verbally said I need an assist car, can you send

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 48
1

somebody right to my location or whatever, so let me

ask you.

for something that's a lot more serious than, hey,

send another car to assist me on a stop?

Would you say that the alert tone is more

Alert tone is I need help, get here as

fast as you can.

alert.

That's when you would use the

Maybe life or death or very serious

situation?

10

I'm under attack.

11

And maybe the officer can't get to his

12

radio to callout on his mike?

13

Correct.

14

Okay.

15

With our radios, they don't get out

16

everywhere, even the alert tone doesn't get out.

17

The radio gives confirmation that it did get

18

received actually, but it doesn't get out.

19

some buildings that I was involved in a situation

20

where I was being assaulted and my radio I couldn't

21

get out and transmit and my alert tone would not get

22

out of the building.

23
24
25

There's

You head the alert button and dispatch

does not get that alert tone?


A

FAX 314-241-6750

Correct.

You know,

if the radio frequency

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 49
1

that's what it is transmitted on as well.

For a scenario, just a

scenario, if you had already called something in on

your radio, and something escalates, you wouldn't

necessarily, or you would maybe necessarily use your

alert button because you already know, either you

knew or that's a backup way to get here more

quickly.

You asked me to assist, things are under

10

control.

It gets to where it is volatile,

11

concentrate on transmitting on my radio,

12

my button.

13

MS. ALIZADEH:

14

hand to hit the button?

15

18

I can hit

But you have to have a free

Correct.

16
17

I can't

You know what Officer


Wilson's range for proficiency was?
A

19

No, sir.
MS. ALIZADEH:

Officers that are

20

commissioned police officer have to qualify on a

21

regular basis.

22

that they're proficient in firearms?

23

24
25

In other words, they have to show

Correct.
MS. ALIZADEH:

FAX 314-241-6750

On a regular basis?

Correct.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 50
1
2
3

MS. ALIZADEH:

How often do you have to

qualify?
A

We do it there every six months.


MS. ALIZADEH:

So that means going to a

range, you have to hit the target in a certain area

a certain number of times in order to be able to

continue to be an armed officer?

Correct.

It is pass or fail.

When you say feel,

that you

10

have to hit your alert button and you say you feel

11

that you are under attack, what's your under attack,

12

what's your definition of it?

13

At the time I've used my alert I'm

14

physically involved in an altercation with a suspect

15

or if I'm having several approach me, anywhere where

16

I feel a threat is, it is imminent for somebody to

17

get there to help me.

18

Suspect is running way from

19

you, and then right in front of you would you still

20

consider that you are under attack.

21

Somebody running away from me?

22
23

Yes, sir.
A

24
25

No.
MS. WHIRLEY:

Have you ever been involved

in a shooting?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 51
1

2
3

Yes, ma'am.
MS. WHIRLEY:

Tell us about it, I mean,

was it a shooting where it was a suspect?

Yes, ma'am.
MS. WHIRLEY:

5
6

Go ahead.

It happened a month after this whole

ordeal, it just happened.

service call -MS. ALIZADEH:

My situation I was on a

Okay, wait a minute.

If

10

this is still under investigation, I'd rather you

11

not.

12
13

MS. WHIRLEY:

I would agree, it is

something still pending; is that right?

14

MS. ALIZADEH:

15

MS. WHIRLEY:

16

was thinking something earlier.

17

19

I would agree with that.

Okay.
If a suspect is fleeing from

20

you, what the other juror said, and you didn't

21

really feel under attack, that would not keep you

22

from trying to get him still?

23
24

No.
MS. WHIRLEY:

18

Let's not talk about it.

Oh, not at all.

I would still go after

him.

25

FAX 314-241-6750

You are still going to

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 52
1

pursue him?

Correct.

3
4
5

And that can be in second's


notice?
A

It depends on the attack on myself.

That's where you weigh the circumstances.

attack on myself is him getting away a danger to the

community

The

When he's running away you

10

wouldn't necessarily feel like you're under attack,

11

so the need for an alert button wouldn't be there at

12

that time, maybe not?

13

I won't say that, no,

14
15

16

I'm not saying that.

You wouldn't feel under


attack, running away?

No.

17

So I can understand it, when

18

a suspect after they've had an altercation with you,

19

okay, for example, and they're running away, you

20

would still consider them to be a threat possibly to

21

the community because, or yourself, and I'm just

22

thinking is it because maybe they could get a weapon

23

somewhere, maybe they could take someone hostage,

24

you don't know if they're armed or not or whatever,

25

is that the mindset to this where you would still

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 53
1

pursue them, decide it being your job to pursue and

capture a suspect that's done something, you know,

broken the law or whatever?

If somebody has assaulted me personally as

a police officer, they can assault anyone out there.

I mean, someone who assaults a police officer or

someone in authority, what would prevent them from

assaulting anyone else.

Suspects know we are trained,

know we

10

have weapons of that nature, you know.

11

willing to attack us knowing that we have that, what

12

would prevent them from attacking a citizen who

13

doesn't have that, those tools.

14

If they are

How have you been taught to

15

utilize your vehicle's lights and siren

16

appropriately?

17

those?

18

I guess, what would cause you to use

In the State of Missouri state law, if

19

you're going to violate any traffic laws or anything

20

be consider an emergency room vehicle, your use of

21

lights and audible signal, doesn't specify siren,

22

audible signal must be used.

23

Missouri at least one flashing red signal.

24

those when you are responding to calls and on the

25

severity of the call.

FAX 314-241-6750

In the State of
You use

Crime in progress or

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014
Page 54

something of that nature and if you want to stop a

traffic violater then you use it,

nature.

4
5

You wouldn't use it,


instance,

like you were stopping someone on foot?

MS. ALIZADEH:

for

No.

things of that

Like a pedestrian check.

You might use it if,

you know,

you are

stopping somebody on the side of the highway,

10

walking on the side of the highway,

I'm going to

11

turn my warning lights for warning purposes, but no,

12

it is not required to stop that person.

13

Thank you.

14

If you were blocking traffic

15

kind of,

16

the sirens to signify that this is a police matter

17

or something?

18

you would turn just your lights on, but not

It depends on the roadway.

I've pulled

19

over onto the shoulder many times without turning

20

any of my emergency equipment on.

21

areas,

22

do.

In residential

you park on the side of street just like cars

23

You are not parked,

24

catty-corner,

25

of the other drivers.

FAX 314-241-6750

you are

you are in the roadway of the driving

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 55
1
2

You would try to do that, yeah.

always have the opportunity.

3
4
5

You don't

I don't think you want to


leave it out there.
A

You don't always have that opportunity.

I'm trying to place a

scenario more kind of what you are taught thing,

trying to phrase this scenario, we are just trying

to learn to understand also.

10

Again, you're doing a stop where you are

11

in your vehicle and there's a pedestrian, a

12

pedestrian stop.

13

someone to use their vehicle as a device to impede

14

someone's course of walk or the direction they are

15

headed, would you take your vehicle and block it in

16

their path to address that?

17

Would you or would you teach

At certain times you would.

18
19
20

Do you think that could be


seen as aggressive?
A

By the suspect?

21
22

Yes.
A

Of course, yeah, people see a lot of

23

things that we do as aggressive just the way we are

24

trained.

25

the path of someone.

FAX 314-241-6750

Yeah, you could use your vehicle to block

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 56
1

Thank you.

You would need a reason to

block that path so at that point if you've asked

somebody to do something and they haven't done that,

then you would need to use aggression, wouldn't you,

if you are trying to get them to do what you told

them to do they haven't done it.

They're not in compliance.

It is not really aggressive,

10

it is taking the necessary steps to do what you

11

asked them to do.

12

Correct.

13

Okay.

14

MS. ALIZADEH:

15

Any other questions?

(End of the testimony of

.)

16
17
18

of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to

19

testify the truth, the whole truth, and

20

nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid,

21

deposes and says in reply to oral

22

interrogatories, propounded as follows,

23
24
25

to-wit:

EXAMINATION
BY MS. ALIZADEH:
Q

FAX 314-241-6750

Just for introductory purposes, it is till

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 57
1

November 11th, it is about ten after 1:00.

Kathi Alizadeh, Sheila Whirley is present, all 12

grand jurors are present, as is the court reporter

taking down what's being said.

we're starting the afternoon with a witness and

ma'am, can you tell the court reporter your name and

spell it for him?


A

First,

10

How are you employed?

11

12
13
14

This is

And this afternoon

, last

name,

am a physician assistant with the North

County Emergency Physicians Group.


Q

How long have you been a physician's

assistant?

15

Seven years.

16

Can you describe for the either grand

17

jurors what is a physician's assistant, how is that

18

different from maybe a nurse or a physician?

19

So we are considered midlevel providers.

20

So we have master's level degree training.

21

practice medicine under the supervision of a

22

physician.

23

practice in the same manner that a physician would.

24

Our charts are reviewed at the end of the day by the

25

physician.

FAX 314-241-6750

We

So in our particular practice we would

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 58
1

Okay.

And, ma'am,

I'm going to stand back

here because the microphones that are in front of

you they don't amplify your voice.

Okay.

If you can make sure you keep your voice

up so everybody back here can hear you.

Okay.

So as a physician's assistant, can you

examine patients and diagnose patients?

10

Yes.

11

And are your findings reviewed later by a

12

physician?

13

Yes.

14

Would there be times when you might

15

examine a patient and feel that you would need to

16

call in a physician to assess a patient?

17

Yes.

18

Okay.

And so, for example, minor injuries

19

or things that don't appear to be emergent in

20

nature, that's something that you can handle without

21

a physician being at your elbow?

22

Correct.

23

Can you prescribe medication?

24

Yes.

25

Can you prescribe controlled substances?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 59
1

No.

In the State of Missouri midlevels do

the have the option to obtain a controlled substance

license as well as DEA number.

midlevels in our facility do not because it is

unnecessary.

and the little times we do, a physician is always

on-site to cosign our prescription.

We don't prescribe a lot of narcotics

8
9
10

I'm sorry, can you prescribe


medication?
A

Yes.
A license in Missouri?

11

12

Yes.

13
14

Most of the

I can go to you and you can


prescribe that?

15

Yes.

16

(By Ms. Alizadeh)

If you were to

17

prescribe, for example, a nonnarcotic medication or

18

something that's not a controlled substance like

19

Naprosyn, is it Naprosyn or Naproxen?

20

Naprosyn is a brand name and Naproxen is

21

the generic.

22

23

If you were to prescribe that, that's not

a control; is that correct?

24

Yes.

25

I can get the equivalent if I take enough

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 60
1

Advil or Aleve?

Correct.

To be prescription strength Naprosyn,

correct?

Yes.

You would, but actually,

I can't go to the

store and buy Naprosyn?

Correct.

So if I get that,

10

Correct.

11

But being nonnarcotic, you can write the

12

it has to be prescribed?

prescription for me?

13

Yes.

14

And then if you were to have a DEA number

15

and have obtained the ability to prescribe

16

controlled substances, and that's an option for a

17

midlevel care physician's assistant,

correct?

18

Yes.

19

Would you be able to prescribe controlled

20

substances without a co-signature of an attending

21

physician?

22

Yes.

23

But you don't have that?

24

Correct.

25

And so in this particular, well,

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

let me

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 61
1

ask you this then.

jurors what your training and background is in order

to be a physician's assistant?

Can you describe for the grand

So I have my undergraduate degree, my

bachelor of science in athletic training.

of science in physician assistant studies.

total with the 2 degrees it was about seven years of

training.

10

went on to graduate school where I

And then

got my master's
So in

And then when you, do you have to pass any

11

board examinations in order to be a physician

12

assistant?

13

Yes.

We have a national certified board

14

that we have to certify initially and then every six

15

years after that.

16

And so a physician's assistant would not

17

be considered, obviously, you are not a medical

18

doctor,

correct?

19

Correct.

20

But a physician's assistant has more

21

education and training than,

22

registered nurse or a practical nurse?

23

Correct.

24

Okay.

25

for example, a

And so when you are working, and

where do you work?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 62
Northwest Health Care Emergency

Department.

Is that affiliated with any hospital?

Christian Northeast.

Is it a part of Christian Northeast?

Yes.

So if somebody has an emergent situation,

they are going to go to Christian Northeast, would

they come into your department?

10

They may.

11

location.

12

apart.

13
14

It just depends on their

The two emergency rooms are about 7 miles

It depends on where they're located.

On August 9th, where was your department

located?

15

At Northwest Health Care.

16

Okay.

17

a hospital?

18

No.

19

So if a patient walked in and there was

And is your department attached to

20

some acute injury that needed more, needed something

21

more than what you are equipped to handle in that

22

facility,

23

refer them to the hospital?

you would then send them by ambulance or

24

Correct.

25

Were you working on August 9th of 2014?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 63
1

Yes.

And when you work,

is it an urgent care or

is it an emergency department?

It is an emergency department.

When you work in the emergency department,

do you work like 12 hour shifts?

Yes,

Do you remember that day what was your

12 hours.

hours of working?

10

I was working noon to midnight.

11

So somewhere around 2:00 or so in the

12

afternoon,

13

day?

you were fairly new on your shift that

14

Yes.

15

And when you are in the emergency

16

department, and there's an attending physician who

17

you work under,

correct?

18

Yes.

19

Is he physically on the premises?

20

Yes.

21

And so is it required that after you see a

22

patient or examine a patient, is it required that

23

the attending then come in and look at that patient

24

with his own eyes?

25

FAX 314-241-6750

No, only if we request.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014
Page 64

Okay.

But is it required that at some

point he needs to sign off on your charts on your

evaluation?

Yes.

And now in this case, you know that you're

here because you were the attending, the nurse's,

I'm sorry, physician's assistant who evaluated

Darren Wilson on August 9th?

Yes.

10

At the time that Darren Wilson came in,

11

had you ever met him before that day?

12

No.

13

Didn't know who he was?

14

Right.

15

Were you aware that he was a police

16

officer?

17

Yes.

18

Was he in uniform when he came in?

19

No.

20

Now,

a patient initially comes into the

21

emergency department, are you the first person

22

they're going to see?

23

No.

24

So that's the person who is going to say,

25

They will see our triage nurse.

oh, we need to see you right away or you can sit for

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 65
1

four hours like everybody has to before a doctor can

see you?

Correct.

Sorry, I

couldn't resist that jab.

We've

all been there.

So a nurse will do an initial

assessment to do how quickly this patient needs to

be seen?

Right.

Does that nurse take some basic

10

information from the patient?

11

Yes.

12

And then after that nurse,

for example, if

13

that nurse determines that this is not a patient

14

that needs to be seen like, you know, ASAP or stat,

15

or whatever your language is, then who would the

16

next person be that that patient will see?

17

The patient would then likely see one of

18

our techs who would bring the patient back to a room

19

whenever it became available.

20

They would take vital signs for the

21

patient and then the person after that would

22

actually be the nurse that would be caring for the

23

patient while they were in the exam room.

24
25

Okay.

Now,

I didn't know if you skipped a

part because we were talking about a patient seeing

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 66
1

an admission's person.

So at some point once they are brought

back to the examine room, whether it be before they

are seen by the nurse or after they're seen by me.

A registration person will see the patient and then

primarily for insurance purposes.

Okay.

Now,

I passed out what should.

(Grand Jury Exhibit Number 93

marked for identification.)

10

(By Ms. Alizadeh)

I'm going to hand you

11

what I've marked as Grand Jury Exhibit Number 93.

12

Prior to coming in today, when I contacted you, did

13

you pull up the medical records for Darren Wilson

14

for that day and review them?

15
16

No,

I reviewed this morning with my

attorney.

17

You reviewed them though prior to coming

19

Yes.

20

And so do those look like the records that

18

21

here?

you reviewed?

22

Yes.

23

And I've given a copy of those records to

24

the grand jurors.

25

really quickly.

FAX 314-241-6750

So we can go page by page just


So the first page that we're

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014
Page 67

3
4

looking at this, this is an admission form?


A

Correct, this is something that

registration would fill out.


Q

So this has to do with insurance and just

basic pedigree information, address and so forth?

Correct.

So then the next page is an abstract

summary.

is, what we call coders.

Now you and I

talked about this and what


There are people in the

10

hospital that have to at some point put codes into

11

these records so that the insurance gets billed for

12

the right procedure for what was done,

correct?

13

Correct.

14

So these codes on here for the diagnosis,

15

reason for and then there's primary diagnosis and

16

then secondary diagnosis,

17

because they are in those black bars.

18

things that a coder selects based upon what they

19

read in the records was the diagnosis,

it is difficult to see
Those are all

correct?

20

Correct.

21

And they have to select from a finite

22

number of options to put a code in,

23

Yes.

24

All right.

25

correct?

So this is mainly for

insurance reasons?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 68
1

Yes.

Okay.

And then the next page, deals with

at the top it says, chief complaint, alleged assault

and then physicians caring for patient, it has your

name?

Yes.

So is this the information that the triage

nurse would have taken or the triage person as you

said?

10

Yes.

11

Okay.

And so down in the paragraph it

12

says triage, it says chief complaint quote, and then

13

in quotes it says, he needs x-rays he was hit in the

14

face a couple of times.

15
16
17
18
19

You're not the person who entered


that into that paragraph, correct?
A

No, that was our triage nurse who sits out

front in our waiting room.


Q

Do you know if the triage nurse got that

20

information from the patient or could it have been

21

from somebody with the patient?

22
23
24
25

I believe it was somebody with the

patient, specifically his supervisor.


Q

Okay.

The patient's supervisor, the

police officer's supervisor?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 69
1

Yes.

And then also down it says here that on

the next line, the patient presented with St. Louis

County Police to the emergency room for evaluation.

5
6

So that means he was with police


officers, correct?

Correct.

And then it says from home?

Right.

So, yeah, usually the nurse, the

10

triage nurse will ask, you know, did they come from,

11

say if they were in a car accident, did they come

12

straight from the car accident or did they go home

13

first and then come from home.

14

At some point he must have said that

15

he came from home.

16

not, that's not something I discussed with him.

17
18

Okay.

Now whether or not he did or

So that's a note that's put in by

the triage nurse?

19

Yes.

20

And whether or not Darren Wilson said that

21

or one of the people with him told her that, or

22

whether or not that's even accurate, we don't know?

23

Correct.

24

And then also in the next paragraph where

25

it says neuro, alert and oriented three times, skin

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 70
1

warm and dry.

2
3
4

So what is the triage nurse assessing


when she's looking at someone's skin?
A

Just that he's not, that he's not pale or

sweating excessively or blue or red or having any

obvious issues with circulation or difficulty

breathing, which may change their skin color.

9
10
11

This is part of a neurologic examine.

Not

like you are noticing that he has redness to his


forehead?
A

Correct.

Just very initial exam.

Is the

12

patient upright, is he aware what's going on, is he

13

able to speak.

14

And, again, downward in the medical

15

screening continued, the note is that the skin is

16

pink, warm and dry.

17

skin on his body appears to be normal?

Is that just in general the

18

Just in general, yes.

19

And then patient denies physical or

20

emotional abuse.

21

abused?

22

Is the patient asked if he was

This is a question that every patient gets

23

asked when they come into our department and it is

24

referring to domestic abuse at home.

25

FAX 314-241-6750

Now, was there suspected domestic abuse

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 71
1

involving this patient?

No.

So every patient, and I think you said

even if they came in for a sore throat or cold is

asked that question?

Correct.

And then on the next page, also down where

it says abuse screening, it says patient states that

he or she is not a victim of violence.

10

Is that

domestic violence specifically?

11

Yes, domestic.

12

He's not asked if somebody hurt you, he's

13

asked if anybody had any domestic assault or

14

domestic violence?

15

Correct, in the home.

16

In the home?

17

Uh-huh.

18

And then on the following page it says

19

here on the flow sheet, you prescribe Naprosyn 500

20

milligrams for him; is that right?

21
22
23
24
25

Yes, and that was the dose that was given

to him while he was in the department.


Q

And it says here

was his

treating nurse?
A

FAX 314-241-6750

Yes.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 72
1

So that would be the person,

as you said,

that once they got in the exam room might then

continue an assessment and take vital signs and so

forth?

Yes.

In reading his charts and what

did,

his vital signs all appeared to be normal?

Correct.

And on the following page then there's,

10

don't know,

11

pain assessment?

I'm going to call it a pain chart or

12

Pain scale.

13

Pain scale, okay.

14

this is

And it indicates here,

that took this information, correct?

15

Correct.

16

And that's

17

that would be

that's his code?

18

His log in.

19

And so for pain index,

20

giving the patient some options.

21

between one and ten?

I imagine you are


Rate your pain

22

Correct.

23

Ten being excruciating, one being?

24

Very little.

25

Very low?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 73
1

Yeah.

And so the patient on those particular

times graded his pain consistently on those four

occasions a six out of ten?

Correct.

And then where it says description, it

says aching.

or would the nurse put that in there?

Is that something the patient provided

The nurse would have given him some

10

options for description, such as sharp, or stabbing

11

or aching or throbbing.

12

pick the one that most fits it.

13
14

And then the patient would

So Darren Wilson on that day said my pain

is aching and it is six out of ten?

15

Correct.

16

Okay.

And then on the next page under

17

nursing notes, and these again are

18

is that correct?

's notes;

19

Correct.

20

Says, patient to ED with complaint of

21

bilateral jaw pain.

22

officer and was struck twice in the face by a

23

suspect.

24
25

FAX 314-241-6750

Patient states he's a police

Patient denies LOC and NV.


That's an entry made by
the nurse,

correct?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 74
1

Yes.

Is that information he would have gotten

from the patient?

Yes.

So this is information that he read on

this chart that might have been put there by the

triage nurse?

9
10
11

This is what the patient told him

directly.
Q

Okay.

And so the patient said he was

struck in the face twice by a suspect?

12

Yes.

13

And then denies LOC?

14

Lost of consciousness.

15

What is NV?

16

Nausea or vomiting.

17

It says that he had no difficulty moving

18

his jaw and no obvious deformities were noted?

19

Correct.

20

And then where it says history of present

21

illness, is that still

taking those notes?

22

That is me.

23

So from that point this information is

24
25

what information you gather and put in the charts?


A

FAX 314-241-6750

Yes.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 75
1

And when it says HPI tech, what does HPI

History of present illness.

Patient presents with CO bilateral jaw

Complaint of bilateral jaw pain.

Okay.

mean?

pain.

So now when you are taking a

history of present illness, what is the purpose to

do that?

10

This is basically just what the patient

11

tells us directly.

12

find on examine, it is just the incident that

13

occurred, the information that was provided directly

14

from the patient, and then what their specific

15

complaint is as far as the injury.

16

All right.

It is not what I see or what I

So the patient may say,

I fell

17

down the stairs and hit my head on the concrete

18

floor?

19

Yes.

20

And that's what goes in there then?

21

Yes.

22

Are you going to ask the patient well, did

23

someone trip you or push you down the stairs, or

24

were you drinking alcohol that caused you to fall

25

down the stairs or you just trying to find out how

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 76
1

the incident occurred?

We might ask what, you know, as far as

falling down the stairs, what made them fall and

they can say oh,

and then I fell down the stairs.

Okay.

I tripped,

I slipped, I passed out

And in this case, someone who says

I have bilateral joint pain after being punched in

the face while attempting to detain a suspect, he

was also scratched in the neck.

10

Again, that's stuff

that Darren Wilson told you?

11

Correct.

12

Did you then inquire about what were you

13

going to try to arrest the suspect for, what

14

happened immediately prior to being punched in the

15

face?

16

No, no, that's not stuff we would go into.

17

Okay.

And let me ask you to clarify.

You

18

know that this examine you did was in relation to

19

Officer Wilson and his involvement that culminated

20

in the shooting of Mike Brown, right?

21
22
23

I do now, we were unaware of the event at

the time.
Q

Okay.

So when you were treating Darren

24

Wilson, you didn't know anything about Mike Brown

25

having been shot?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 77
1

Correct.

Would you have treated him any differently

or is there something that now you look back I wish

I would have done had I known?

No, basically because his complaint was

jaw pain, our focus is, you know, how did the jaw

pain occur.

you know, and then what his complaint is as far as

pain or any complications from that.

He got punched.

What, who punched him,

10

But from a medical standpoint it is

11

not going to change how we treat him or what we do

12

based on what led up to that event.

13

Okay.

And ultimately, you know, after you

14

having reviewed this record,

you diagnosed him with

15

contusion of the mandibular joint area?

16

Yes.

17

And so your mandible is your jaw, correct?

18

Correct.

19

So what is a contusion?

20

Contusion is basically a bruise,

21
22

inflammation, irritation to the soft tissue.


Q

And we talked about that a little bit ago

23

about bruising and we all have had bruises, we've

24

had kids that had bruises, do people bruise

25

differently?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 78
1

Yes.

And do different areas of the body bruise

differently?

Yes.

We've also talked about that bruises can

go through like a continuum, almost like a color

spectrum from deep purposely to blue to greenish

color to a yellow issue color, correct?

Yes.

10

Do all bruises go through that continuum?

11

No, it really depends on the area.

It

12

also depends on the severity of the initial injury.

13

So sometimes it can start as just a mild redness and

14

then it resolves or it can go through the color

15

stages of red to purple, blue and then fading to

16

green and yellow.

17

Did you notice any swelling to Darren

18

Wilson face?

19

Nothing significant, no.

20

Okay.

And, obviously, probably we've all

21

seen pictures and you've probably seen in real life

22

when someone, like the entire side of their face is

23

swollen, that would be something very evident and

24

apparent, correct?

25

FAX 314-241-6750

Correct.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 79
1

Are there times when people may have some

slight swelling, but you can't tell if that might,

they have a chubby face or that's just the way their

face looks normally, for example?

Correct.

Several times patients will come

in complaining of swelling and it is just not

evident to us because we don't see what their normal

tissue looks like on a normal day.

complained of any swelling, it wasn't noticeable

10

So if he

enough that I could tell.

11

So you didn't notice any obvious swelling?

12

Correct.

13

But did you notice a contusion?

14

Some redness, yes.

15

And what causes a contusion or what can

16
17
18
19
20

cause a contusion?
A

Any type of trauma really to the soft

tissue.
Q

Okay.

So can a punch to your face cause a

contusion on your face?

21

Yes.

22

You also put in your records that he

23

complains of having been scratched on the back of

24

his neck?

25

FAX 314-241-6750

Yes.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014
Page 80

And did you examine,

look at the back of

his neck?

Yes.

Did you observe anything that looked

5
6

consistent with having been scratched?


A

Yes, there were several linear marks,

slight puffiness that were consistent with what he

described as fingernail scratch marks.

10

Now, did you,

his injuries?
did not photograph anything, no.

11

12

Okay.

13

yourself, photograph any of

And were you present when his

injuries were photographed?

14

was not present in the examine room, no.

15

Okay.

When you examine Darren Wilson,

16

were there any other people besides yourself and the

17

patient present?

18
19

Two St. Louis County detectives were

present.

20

Did they question him in your presence?

21

No.

22

Were they present when you asked him what

23

happened, what happened to your face or anything

24

like that?

25

FAX 314-241-6750

Yes.

They were present the entire time

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 81
1
2

that I was in the room.


Q

I'm going to hand you some photographs

that are contained in a packet marked as Grand Jury

Exhibit Number 10, and these are images Number 2

through 19.

example, does that look like the patient you

examined that day?

And just looking at Image Number 2, for

Yes.

Is that how he appeared when you saw him?

10

Yes.

11

Did you seize any specimens from him by

12
13

any chance or take anything from him?


A

He submitted a urine drug screen, not to

14

us, but to an outside company called Guardian that

15

we contact for work related injuries.

16
17

And you learned that this happened while

he was on duty,

correct?

18

Yeah.

19

And so that's considered a work related

20

injury?

21

Yes.

22

And then is it required that he submit a

23
24
25

urine sample for drug testing?


A

It is based on each company's policy and

for his department that was required.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 82
1
2
3

Okay.

And so did you or another nurse

take his urine sample when he was there?


No.

A representative from the company

Guardian comes into the department and handles that

full aspect of it.

And the testing of the urine sample is

done by that company?

Yes.

And then I'm just going to show you some

10

pictures that have been taken while he was at the

11

hospital, do you note any of the redness in any of

12

these pictures in particular that help to

13

demonstrate what you saw that day?

14

Yeah, his primary complaint was to the

15

right side of the jaw, and so you can see a little

16

bit of redness there and a little bit of redness

17

there.

18

of the jaw.

19

20

of the jaw?

21

22
23

We didn't notice any issues to the left side

Did he complain of pain to the left side

Very, very mild pain to the left side of

the jaw.
Q

Okay.

You pointed at an image, which is

24

Image Number 9, showing the redness that you saw on

25

that day?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 83
1

Yes.

And then regarding the back of his neck,

and again, these were photos taken by police not by

you?

Correct.

Are there any of these images where they

depict the injuries that you describe or that are

shown that we might use?

A little bit of redness here at the

10

hairline.

11

photograph the actual kind of linear marks that I

12

saw during the examine, but you can kind of see some

13

lines developing with the redness.

14
15

It is a little difficult to see in the

Okay.

And so you were pointing out Image

Number 12 as showing the redness of the hairline?

16

Correct.

17

And was it in this area that you saw the

18

linear marks?

19

Yes.

20

Now,

just for sake of clarity, this mark

21

that goes like horizontal across at his hairline,

22

that's not a scratch, is it?

23

That's just normal skin fold.

24

A skin fold?

25

Yes.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 84
1

At my age we call them wrinkles?

Right.

Okay.

So the redness to the back of the

neck you were describing is this area here, along

the hairline, right?

Yes.

Did you notice any swelling in that area?

No.

Did he talk about any pain in that area?

10

Nothing of significance, no.

11

Now, and I talked to you just briefly

12

before this and I told you that Officer Wilson was

13

photographed, similar photographs were taken of him,

14

I believe, on the 13th, which would have been

15

actually on the 12th.

16

about bruising and how bruises appear and how long

17

it takes bruises to appear.

18

And I asked you, we talked

In these photographs do you see any

19

apparent bruising that might demonstrate that is

20

consistent with your diagnosis of a contusion?

21

It appears the redness that he had

22

initially has resolved.

23

purple discoloration that sometimes follows

24

contusions.

25

FAX 314-241-6750

I don't see any of the

So the fact that you do not see any of the


Gore Perry Reporting and Video
314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 85
1

redness three days,

pictures were taken, but let's just say roughly

three days after the injury resulted or occurred,

does that change your opinion as to the diagnosis?

I'm not sure what time those

No, because it will not always progress to

that point that it turns into that distinctive

purple bruising that we are used to seeing.

9
10

You still, in your opinion, is the same

that you've diagnosed Darren Wilson with a contusion


of his mandible?

11

Yes.

12

And he was x-rayed and there is no

13

fracture or any other injuries to his jaw or face;

14

is that right?

15

16
17

Right, yes.
MS. ALIZADEH:

Sheila, do you have

anything?
MS. WHIRLEY:

18

Urn, yes.

Progressing from

19

redness to the face to bruising, which you looked at

20

the photos of him a couple of days later and there

21

was no bruising according to the photos, and you

22

only saw redness on the face,

23

24
25

correct, no bruising?

Correct.
MS. WHIRLEY:

Progressing from the redness

of the face to a bruise, would that depend on the

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 86
1
2

impact, how hard a person is struck?


A

Yes.

You know, generally the harder the

impact, the more blood vessel involvement.

bruise is caused by broken blood vessel.

harder the punch, the harder the impact, the more

likely you are to have more blood vessels being

broken.

to bleed, that's what creates that purple

discoloration as that blood kind of seeps out

10

So a
So the

And that's when those blood vessels start

underneath the layer.

11

MS. WHIRLEY:

If the face is red, but

12

never turns purple, does that mean that the impact

13

was not hard enough to break any blood vessels?

14

It was likely that the impact just

15

involved the very superficial capillary layers, as

16

opposed to deeper tissue which would result in the

17

deeper purple bruising.


MS. WHIRLEY:

18

Okay.

I don't think I heard

19

this asked, he did not require any hospitalization,

20

did he?

21

22
23
24

No.
MS. WHIRLEY:

So he was treated and

released?
A

25

FAX 314-241-6750

Yes.
MS. WHIRLEY:

Did he have any injuries to

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 87
1

his eyes at all?


A

nose pain or tooth pain or any head pain.


MS. WHIRLEY:

No, he did not complain of any eye pain or

No head pain.

There was no evidence of

any injury to these areas.

MS. WHIRLEY:

no permanent injuries?

Head pain you said.

10

So in your opinion there are

Correct.
MS. WHIRLEY:

And you said there were no

11

fractures.

12

because of the injury that he was treated for?

13

14

Would he have needed to take time off

No.
MS. WHIRLEY:

No.

And as far as the

15

document saying that he was injured by being

16

stricken or however it is phrased, that is his

17

self-reporting, correct?

18

19
20
21

MS. WHIRLEY:

You could see redness to the

face and nobody was even struck; is that correct?


A

22
23

Correct.

Could you see redness of the face?


MS. WHIRLEY:

Yes.

If he had redness to the face,

there was

24

obviously some sort of trauma to the soft tissue.

25

But we gather that it was from a punch to the face

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 88
1

based on his account.

2
3

MS. WHIRLEY:
self-reporting?

If you rub your face too hard with

MS. WHIRLEY:

And not have a broken blood

vessels to give me a bruise?

11

12
13

Yes.

your hand, you could get redness to it.

10

I could get redness to the

face from several different ways or mechanism?

Yes.
MS. WHIRLEY:

Based on what he told you,

Yes, right.
MS. WHIRLEY:

That's all I have, thank

you.

14

MS. ALIZADEH:

Just real quickly.

The

15

injury that you saw, is it consistent with what he

16

reported?

17

Yes.
MS. ALIZADEH:

18

19

Any questions?
Where is your place located

20

because I'm trying to determine how far,

21

concerned about that home answer on the application.

22

23
24
25

I'm

Okay.
Where is your place located?

So we are in Florissant.

We are right off

of Graham Road. Hanley and 270.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 89
1
2
3

Hanley and 270 on Graham


Road.
A

On Graham Road, yes.

4
5
6

So you are right across the


street from the physician building?
A

Yes, yeah.

You said the area and the

severity of the injury can be affected by how the

bruise continues to manifest itself, correct?

10
11

Yes, a worsening, a deeper bruise

typically indicates a more severe injury.

12
13
14

And Naprosyn is an
anti-inflammatory drug.
A

Yes.

15
16
17

So with the application of


ice, what you told him to do, apply ice.
A

Yes.

18

And consumption of an

19

anti-inflammatory also have an affect on how the

20

bruising would manifest itself?

21

Yes.

So the sooner ice is applied, the

22

sooner anti-inflammatory medicines are taken, the

23

more likely that a bruise or injury would resolve

24

sooner than if no treatment were taken.

25

FAX 314-241-6750

Was he given any

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 90
1
2
3

anti-inflammatory drug while he was there?


A

Yes, he was given a single dose of

Naprosyn.

And a single dose is 500

milligrams?

Yes.

And that's stronger than

anything you can buy, you can't buy Naprosyn over

the counter?

10

No.

11

That's very close to

12

Ibuprofen?

13

14

It is.

It was Aleve, so basically

prescription strength Aleve.

15

Okay.

You mention that you

16

saw no swelling, but prescribed this Naprosyn; is

17

that correct?

18

Yes, there was no swelling that was seen.

19
20

Just the redness.


A

Just the redness.

Naprosyn is also a pain

21

reliever.

22

complaint of pain, we would have prescribed

23

something similar.

24
25

So even without any evidence with his

Could you explain a little


bit to us how that pain portion of that.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

So when

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 91
1

you ask a patient for pain,

to what they feel versus what you as a professional

can evaluate?

The pain scale, is that what you mean?


Yes.

5
6

kind of how that relates

That is very subjective.

So that the way

that it is worded generally is, rate your pain on a

scale of one to ten, ten being the worse pain that

you've ever experienced or could ever imagine

10

experiencing.

So for someone who has never

11

experienced much pain in their life may have what

12

others would call relatively mild pain, but still

13

may be the worst pain that they personally ever

14

experienced.

They may rate it on a higher scale.

15
16
17

So it very much differs from


person to person.
A

18

Yes.
Nothing that a doctor or

19

nurse no matter their education or training could

20

disagree with or agree with?

21

It is not, there's no set guidelines as

22

far as a three is this degree and a seven is this

23

degree, it is very subjective.

24

Thank you.

25

What are some of the side

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 92
1

effects of the Naprosyn, is there any warning on

there do not operate machinery while taking this

drug?

No, it is generally well tolerated.

If

anyone is going to experience anything it may be a

little bit of stomach upset, but because it is

nonnarcotic, there should not be any interference

with operating machinery or driving a car or

anything like that.

10
11

I'm looking on page eight of


11.

12
13

MS. ALIZADEH:

Can you speak up a little

bit?

14

I'm sorry, on page eight of

15

11, where it says transcriptionist, was it

16

transcribed date and time August the 9th, 2014 at

17

10:18 p.m.

18

19
20
21

Uh-huh.
Are you saying this

radiologist was reading the report?


A

The radiologist reads the report, and then

22

a transcriptionist, someone that -- so a radiologist

23

will read a report and dictate it into a phone.

24

then someone outside of the building, outside of the

25

practice will then type it out at a later time.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

And

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 93
1
2
3

He didn't read the report


until like -A

It was read on August 9th at 4:00.

4
5
6

But the transcriber didn't


do it until 10:00 p.m. that night, 10:18?
A

Correct.
I was going to ask who was

I thought that was you?

8
9

That is me, yes.

10
11

So you have two last names?


A

That is my maiden name.

12

Okay.

13

under your maiden name, then your order the medicine

14

in your

15

So you order it up

Yeah, my last name is

, but our

16

computers have not been 100 percent updated with my

17

married last name.

18

Okay.

I have a question.

19

thought that number seven question about the

20

swelling, how long does it take someone to swell?

21

Really varies from person to person.

It

22

really depends on the injury and location of the

23

injury.

24

minutes, some may develop swelling within 24 hours.

25

It really depends on each person and the location.

FAX 314-241-6750

Someone may develop swelling within

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 94
1

When you were talking with

Darren Wilson, getting assessment from him, was he

100 percent himself or was he relying on the

supervisor or others around to assist with his

responses?

The detectives that were present with him

in the room did not speak the entire time that I was

in there.
MS. WHIRLEY:

So you have an independent

10

recollection of your interaction with this officer;

11

is that correct?

12

13

Yes.
MS. WHIRLEY:

14

Urn,

What was his demeanor?

calm, cooperative, nothing seemed out

15

of the ordinary to me.

16

apprehensive initially.

17

into the room I was probably interrupting a

18

discussion between him and the detectives.

19

started my exam, he was calm and didn't appear

20

overly anxious or anything.

21

MS. WHIRLEY:

Possibly at most slightly


I feel that when I walked

Once I

He didn't say anything to

22

you what happened other than he was struck in the

23

face?

24
25

His words were he was punched in the face

by a suspect while attempting to detain the suspect.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 95
1
2
3

MS. WHIRLEY:
else?
No.

MS. WHIRLEY:

Okay.
Could an arm keep rubbing on

a face,

could that have made the face red?


Yes.
Injuries like this, is that

Did he tell you anything

something typically you would see on a day-to-day

10

just because the incident happened, we have to make

11

sure we get this documented?

12

This is something that we would typically

13

see day-to-day.

14

not necessarily always regarding a police officer at

15

work, but just anyone in general.

16

lot of our local police department coming in with

17

various injuries that they sustain on-the-job.

18

was by no means out of the ordinary what we do see

19

day-to-day.

20

We see a lot of assault victims,

MS. WHIRLEY:

But we do see a

Do you see regular people,

21

lay people come in with a red face looking for

22

treatment?

23

24
25

This

Yes.
MS. ALIZADEH:

Ma'am, would you also,

someone who maybe reports being struck twice in the

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 96
1

face who has that type of injury that you observed.

You might, you actually in this case decided to do

x-rays to see if he had a fracture,

6
7

If he had a fracture, there

would be possibly other treatment involved?


A

Yes.
MS. ALIZADEH:

Yes.
MS. ALIZADEH:

correct?

So I guess what I'm trying

to get at is obviously there's potential that this,

10

somebody wanted to document this because obviously

11

work related injuries, people want documented, and

12

in the event that this was, you know, again

13

investigated in a criminal nature or to maybe

14

ascertain whether or not there was a more severe

15

injury than simply my jaw hurts and it's red?

16

17

Right.
MS. ALIZADEH:

18

Okay.
I have a question.

19

Considering that you did give Naprosyn, did you feel

20

that there was a need to prescribe an

21

anti-inflammatory instead of just a pain killer, did

22

you feel that the injuries looked like, you know, an

23

anti-inflammatory was needed?

24
25

Yeah, given the injury.

Usually, whether

it be a contusion or a sprain or a strain, we do try

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014
Page 97

to do anti-inflammatory medicines versus like a

narcotic pain reliever.

that anti-inflammatory effect, which generally helps

with the pain and helps resolve the injury a little

bit more.

Simply because it does have

I kind of secondarily prescribe

Naprosyn versus a narcotic because I knew that he

was going to be submitting a urine drug screen and I

did not want something that I gave him to interfere

10

with that.
Did you feel his injuries

11

12

were consistent with the need to have an

13

anti-inflammatory drug?

14

Yes.

15
16
17

At any time did Darren


Wilson mention he had already seen an EMT?
A

No, he did not.


MS. ALIZADEH:

18
19

Anyone else?

.)

(End of the testimony of

20

MS. ALIZADEH:

So Kathi Alizadeh,

it is

21

about two minutes after 2:00.

22

the last witness of the day and you were scheduled

23

to be here till 2:30.

24

you want to cut out now.

25

FAX 314-241-6750

We just finished with

I think it is a good idea if

We talked off the record earlier today

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 98
1

about scheduling and things that you might need

because as we all have said, we're getting close to

the end.

lunch hour about whether or not you thought you

might want some additional evidence or witnesses

that you haven't heard yet or seen yet or whether or

not you want to recall any witnesses that you've

already heard from that you now have questions for?

Did you all talk about that at all?

Did you have a chance to talk during your

10

We haven't talked about,

11

don't think there is anybody at this point.

12

possible when we start getting into the

13

deliberations that, you know, if there is a

14

controversy, we may want to recall somebody.

15

would not expect that to be the case.

16

MS. ALIZADEH:

Here is our plan.

It is

y'all

17

are here Thursday till 5:00.

18

previously, Dr.

19

think he's going to be here at 8:30.

20

first witness of the day.

21

track down up to five lay people that mayor may not

22

show up on Thursday.

23

As I mentioned

is going to be here and I


He will be the

We still are trying to

And then, of course, we talked about

24

Detective

25

would wrap things up and kind of summarize and

FAX 314-241-6750

being kind of the last witness who

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 99
1

answer any leftover questions that you might have

about the investigation.

I didn't realize when we started up that

we didn't have all 12 grand jurors, we weren't

hearing evidence, we were just talking about the end

of the day has come and that if any additional

witness or evidence I need you to get that to me as

soon as possible.

Thursday at 8:30 we are going to start

10

with Dr.

11

can find them, then

12

we have the time, he's going to be the last witness

13

of the grand jury.

14

We may have some lay witnesses if I


may be testifying if

And then you mayor may not if Thursday is

15

our last day, you mayor may not begin your

16

deliberations then.

17

the end of the day is at 5:00.

18

going until 6:00, 7:00, 8:00, 9:00, it doesn't

19

matter to us.

20

need.

21

And as I said before, you know,


You want to keep

We're here, be here as long as you

If you do not begin deliberations that day

22

or if you don't complete your deliberations that

23

day, the next day you have scheduled is the

24

following Friday, a week, a little more than a week

25

after that.

FAX 314-241-6750

So that would be right now the plan is


Gore Perry Reporting and Video
314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 100
1

that if we don't finish the evidence, we will see

you on that following Friday.

If we do finish the evidence, it will

begin deliberations and continue or you'll come back

the following Friday.

is okay with?

Is that a plan that everybody

Okay.

In the meantime, I know you have asked for

someone to help you in your deliberations.

Obviously, things to write with and things to put on

10

the wall.

11

to put on the wall?

12

Did they show you the thing we are going

It is a like this, it is big enough to

13

push pins into, but it is bigger than that.

14

we might try to put a couple of these two things

15

right here.

16

more.

17

I think

And then if you need more, we'll get

We're going to have a flip chart, we have

18

the easel which is excellent and then we'll give

19

you, you know, Posted Notes, push pins, everything

20

else.

21

because you are doing that, we'll get you whatever

22

you need.

23
24

If you want different color highlighters

And with that, any questions at the end of


the day as we are coming to a close?

25

FAX 314-241-6750

Also the charges, what do


Gore Perry Reporting and Video
314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 101
1

you call them?

MS. ALIZADEH:

We're going to do that

tomorrow, because we didn't have time last night and

today we started up with this.

today or by tomorrow we will give to you for

indictments for you to consider and then we'll give

you the law on self-defense because we've already

given you the excessive force or the use of force

statute.

10

Anything else?

11

MS. WHIRLEY:

Either the rest of

We still talking about the

12

probable cause and that standard.

13

MS. ALIZADEH:

We had a conversation with

14

that even last night and we still have to kind of

15

work that out, we're not really sure.

16
17

Probable cause, you are


still looking at?
MS. ALIZADEH:

18

We both agree that you

19

can't return an indictment unless you believe there

20

is probable cause to believe that a crime occurred

21

and that the defendant or suspect or the person

22

you're considering committed it.

23

is, if you're going to consider self-defense and use

24

of lawful use of force to affect an arrest are

25

affirmative defenses and they're what we call

FAX 314-241-6750

But the question

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 102
1

complete defenses.

And so if you believe that the person

acted in lawful self-defense or if you believe the

person was justified in the use of force as a law

enforcement officer, then it is a complete defense,

there would be no indictment on any charge.

The question we don't really know is that

beyond a reasonable doubt, what is the standard by

which you have to consider that.

10

MS. WHIRLEY:

11

Those two issues.


Will that be outlined in

12

writing for us as well?

13

MS. ALIZADEH:

I don't know because we

14

don't know.

15

be different because, obviously,

16

beyond a reasonable doubt.

17

obligation of the defense to raise the issue, and if

18

the issue is raised,

19

the State to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that

20

the person did not act in lawful self-defense or was

21

not justified in the use of force, but that's in a

22

trial setting.

23

If this matter were a trial, it would


in trial it is

And in trial it is the

it becomes the obligation of

So we don't know how this, this

24

investigation was, we talked about yesterday, is not

25

typical on how we would present cases to the grand

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 103
1

jury.

This is an investigation and I believe, and I

think Sheila agrees,

that your determination of whether or not force was

justified either as self-defense or use of force to

affect an arrest is a part of your decision process.

I don't want to speak for you,

So that's something for you to consider.

I don't think the answer is simply, well, we believe

that a crime was committed, you know, probable cause

to believe a crime was committed and he did it and

10

not at all talk about those defenses.

11

But I don't know, we don't know what kind

12

of instruction to give you on, do you have to

13

believe that there's probable cause to believe that

14

he used excessive force.

15

know that.

16

thing.

17

I don't know, we don't

We don't want to tell you the wrong

So we're still trying to work that out.


Okay.

I hope I haven't said too much.

We

18

want you to make the right decision, we want your

19

decision to be based on the law.

20

neither Sheila nor I have ever had this experience

21

before and actually, we talked, there's only been

22

one grand jury investigation on officer's use of

23

force in the past 15 years that anybody can

24

remember, so we're kind of not sure how to proceed.

25

FAX 314-241-6750

MS. WHIRLEY:

And given that

We'll get it.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014
Page 104

MS. ALIZADEH:

We'll get you that

instruction.

It will be up to us whether we are

right or wrong, but we will give you that guidance.

We are your legal advisers under the law,

that's what our job is to tell you what the law is.

Of course, presenting all the evidence that we can

present for you and then you all are going to have

to make of that what you will.

All right.

So at this point, we will

10

conclude the day and we will see everybody on

11

Thursday at 8:30.

12
13

(End of the grand jury hearing Volume


XXII.)

14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 105
1

State of Missouri

4
5

SS.

County of St. Louis


I,

a Licensed Certified Court

Reporter by the Supreme Court in and for the State

of Missouri, duly commissioned, qualified and

authorized to administer oaths and to certify to

depositions, do hereby certify that pursuant to

10

Notice in the civil cause now pending and

11

undetermined in the County of St. Louis, State of

12

Missouri.

13

The said witness, being of sound mind and being

14

by the grand jury first carefully examined and duly

15

cautioned and sworn to testify to the truth, the

16

whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the case

17

aforesaid, thereupon testified as is shown in the

18

foregoing transcript, said testimony being by me

19

reported in shorthand and caused to be transcribed

20

into typewriting, and that the foregoing page

21

correctly sets forth the testimony of the

22

aforementioned witness, together with the questions

23

propounded by counsel and grand jurors thereto, and

24

is in all respects a full,

25

complete transcript of the questions propounded to

FAX 314-241-6750

true,

correct and

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 106
1

and the answers given by said witness.

I further certify that the foregoing pages

contain a true and accurate reproduction of the

proceedings.

I further certify that I am not of counselor

attorney for either of the parties to said suit, not

related to nor interested in any of the parties or

their attorneys.

10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 107
1

COURT MEMO

2
3
4

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

6
7

CERTIFICATE OF OFFICER AND

STATEMENT OF DEPOSITION CHARGES

10
11

DEPOSITION OF Grand Jury, Volume XXII

12
13

11/11/2014

14

Name and address of person or firm having custody of

15

the original transcript:

16
17

St. Louis County Prosecuting Office

18

100 South Central, 2nd floor

19

Clayton, MO 63105

20
21
22
23
24
25

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014

Page 108
1

ORIGINAL TRANSCRIPT TAXED IN FAVOR OF:

St. Louis County Prosecuting Office

100 South Central, 2nd floor

Clayton, MO 63105

Total:

8
9

10
11

12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury Volume XXII

November 11,2014
Page 109

Upon delivery of transcripts, the above

charges had not been paid.

that all charges will be paid in the normal course

of business.

GORE PERRY GATEWAY & LIPA REPORTING COMPANY

515 Olive street, Suite 700

st. Louis, Missouri 63101

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set

STATEMENT OF DEPOSITION CHARGES

10

my hand and seal on this

11

Commission expires

It is anticipated

day of

12

13

Notary Public

14

15
16
17
18
19
20
21

22
23
24

25

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

Case: State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Grand Jury, Volume XXIII


Date: November 13, 2014

This transcript is printed on 100% recycled paper

515 Olive Street, Suite 300


St. Louis, MO 63101
(314) 241-6750
1-800-878-6750
Fax: (314) 241-5070
Email: schedule@goreperry.com
Internet: < <www.goreperry.com >>

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 1

STATE OF MISSOURI

VS.

DARREN WILSON

GRAND JURY

November 13, 2014

VOLUME XXIII

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014
Page 2

IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF ST. LOUIS COUNTY

STATE OF MISSOURI

STATE OF MISSOURI

5
6

vs.

DARREN WILSON

10
11

12

The following is a hearing before the Grand

13

Jury of St. Louis County, at the offices of St.

14

Louis County Prosecuting Attorney's Office, 100

15

South Central Avenue,

16

of Missouri, on the 13th day of November,

17

before

in the City of Clayton, State


2014,

18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 3
1

APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:

2
3

FOR THE STATE:

Ms. Kathi Alizadeh & Ms. Sheila Whirley

Assistant Prosecuting Attorneys for St. Louis

County

100 South Central Avenue, 2nd Floor

Clayton, MO 63105

(314)

615-2600

10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 5
1

GRAND JURY HEARING VOLUME XXIII

MS. ALIZADEH:

Good morning.

It is

Thursday, November 13th at 9:26 a.m.

This is Kathi

Alizadeh of the prosecutor's office, Sheila Whirley

is present, all 12 grand jurors are present, as is

the court reporter.

getting a late start.

the morning here.

and he's reviewing some materials right now and then

And I apologize, we're kind of


We have our first witness in

We've had to meet with him a bit

10

we had a discussion briefly before going on the

11

record this morning about scheduling and about what

12

might be in store for today.

13

in the future that you have already given us and so

14

with that being said, we'll just start the day and

15

Sheila will take the first witness of the day who is

16

Dr.

17
18

MS. WHIRLEY:

He's looking at some

photographs, so he needs just a few more minutes.

19
20

And then for the dates

MS. ALIZADEH:

All right.

We'll go ahead

and pause the recording.

21
22
23
24
25

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 6
1

of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to

testify the truth, the whole truth, and

nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid,

deposes and says in reply to oral

interrogatories, propounded as follows, to-wit:

7
8

EXAMINATION
BY MS. WHIRLEY:

Good morning, Doctor.

10

Good morning.

11

And I just want to reiterate on the record

12

for the grand jurors that we had already talked

13

about, you know, that you're not supposed to discuss

14

anything that we talk about here in the grand jury,

15

correct?

16

Correct.

17

And that even any fact which the

18

foreperson mentioned, any fact or thing that may

19

come to your knowledge that you've discussed here at

20

all.

21

Yes.

22

That wouldn't be discussed outside of

23

these four walls.

24

Yes.

25

All right.

FAX 314-241-6750

With that bit of introduction

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 7
1

we've met,

I'm Sheila Whirley, Kathi Alizadeh is

here, the jurors and the court reporter, tell us a

little bit about yourself, Doctor.

pathologist, correct?

We know you're a

Yes.

Are you a forensic pathologist?

Yes.

What exactly -MS. ALIZADEH:

Sheila, for the record,

10

don't think he said his name.

11

introduced.

12

MS. WHIRLEY:

13

about that,

14

15

We haven't had him

We had talked a little bit

I guess I skipped that step.

(By Ms. Whirley)

Please introduce yourself

and say your name and spell your name?

16

17

And in the future what I'm going to try to

18

do and that's probably why I skipped asking,

19

going to refer to you as doctor and not use your

20

name for many reasons.

21

Okay, thank you.

22

Getting back to forensic pathology.

23
24
25

I'm

What

does that mean?


A

Pathology is one of the 24 specialties in

medicine, like OBGYN, dermatology, surgery,

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 8
1

pathology is a specialty that deals with finding out

what's wrong with the body as opposed to treatment.

So we're the doctors in the hospital

who run the laboratory to see what the blood count

is, what the PSA is, what the liver chemistries are

and tell the treating doctors if there is evidence

of liver disease or kidney disease or prostate

problems, and that's the pathologist's role in the

hospital communicating with doctors who are treating

10

patients.

11

Also, the pathologist's role is

12

looking at biopsies, you know, breast biopsies, skin

13

biopsies, to tell the treating doctor what kind of

14

condition, cancer, not cancer, something else.

15

then the treating doctor does the treatment.

16

Okay.

17

So there are a number of divisions in

And

18

pathology.

The biggest division is hospital

19

pathology.

Where the pathologist looks at the

20

biopsies, do autopsies, find out what's wrong with

21

the patient, look at the chemistry of the body.

22

And there are separate examinations,

23

board examinations so that in all 24 fields,

24

a patient looking for a doctor can tell whether the

25

dermatologist has passed his boards or not and all

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

so that

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 9
1

the specialties have to do you have to show the

right training in the medical school, the right

training in the residency program and pass various

exams.

certified physician, and that's of importance for

others to know the extent of expertise that person

has before going to the doctor.

And if so, then one is a diplomate or board

8
9

Pathology has three big divisions


that I'm involved with.

One is anatomical

10

pathology, which has to do with the anatomy of the

11

body.

12

under the microscope and tissues under the

13

microscope, is evaluated to see what the anatomical

14

structure of the body is and what's normal or not,

15

that's anatomical pathology.

That's where autopsies, looking at biopsies

16

Second division will be clinical

17

pathology, which has to do with the chemistry of the

18

body to see what's the blood count and the urine

19

testing, et cetera, which gives us information about

20

body function or organ functions.

21

And that's the prime role in

22

hospitals, anatomical and clinical pathology.

23

Forensic pathology goes a step further to look into

24

unnatural deaths, accident, suicide, homicide.

25

FAX 314-241-6750

92 percent of people in the country


Gore Perry Reporting and Video
314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 10
1

die of natural diseases cancers,

stroke, heart

disease.

pathologist, clinical pathology, anatomical

pathology.

And that's the expertise of the hospital

8 percent die of accident, suicide,

homicide and that's specialized training of forensic

pathologists.

something like 900,000 physicians, maybe 20,000 are

pathologists, less than 400 are forensic

The general in this country there is

10

pathologists that deal with unnatural death and

11

that's where the forensic pathologist comes in.

12

Is that your current occupation?

13

Yes.

14

Where are you licensed, Doctor?

15

I'm licensed in New York State.

16

And have you served as a medical examiner

17

in New York State?

18

Yes.

19

How many autopsies would you say that you

20

have performed as a forensic pathologist?

21

More than 20,000.

22

Okay.

23
24
25

And you are certified, of course,

in forensic pathology?
A

I'm certified in anatomical pathology,

clinical pathology, forensic pathology, this is

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 11
1

about my background.

in New York City for 25 years, including the role of

chief medical examiner in New York City.

transferred to the State of New York and I was chief

forensic pathologist for the New York State Police

for some 25 years.

practice of forensic pathology.


Q

How many years total would you have in

10

experience?

11

More than 50 years.

12

Okay.

13
14

And then I

Recently retired, and I'm in private

I served as medical examiner

Have you any experience, are you a

toxicologist also?
A

No,

I'm not a toxicologist who specializes

15

in finding drugs, but all forensic pathologists have

16

to be experts in interpreting what the toxicologist

17

finds.

18

chemistry and finding drugs, finding quantities, how

19

much of the drug is present, but it is really the

20

physician, medical doctor who interprets the results

21

and sees how it affects any illness the person has

22

or affects what treatment should be given.

23
24
25

So the toxicologist's role is largely

And where did you receive your training,

your training in pathology?


A

FAX 314-241-6750

Started out with a bachelor of science

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 12
1

degree at the City College of New York.

degree at New York University School of Medicine in

Manhattan, New York, and trained in pathology at

Bellevue Hospital and at the office of Chief Medical

Examiner in New York City.

Medical

I didn't ask you to bring your CV with you

today, would you happen to have a CV of your

training experience with you?

10
11
12

I don't think so, but I could get it to

you this afternoon.


Q

That would be great that we can count on

that to get that later.

13

Yes.

14

So tell us, you already told us how many

15

autopsies you performed, tell us exactly what is an

16

autopsy?

17

Autopsy is a systematic external and

18

internal examination of the human body to determine

19

any abnormalities that might be present and any

20

information that might be useful in determining

21

cause of death of how a person died.

22

An autopsy will include taking

23

specimens for toxicology, for DNA, for microscopic

24

examination to look at tissues.

25

can provide a lot of information about cause of

FAX 314-241-6750

So that the autopsy

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 13
1

death and the circumstances around death.

We're here today because of the shooting

of Michael Brown and we've asked you to come before

us because you actually did what sounds like was a

private autopsy on Michael Brown; is that correct?

That's correct.

You were aware that he had a first autopsy

that was performed by St. Louis County?

Yes.

10

Medical Examiner's Office in St. Louis

11

County.

12
13

Do you recall when you would have


done your autopsy, what date that would have been?

14

Yes, it was Sunday, I

15

around August, hold on a second.

16

came on Sunday
About August 17th,

guess, August 17th of this year.

17

August 17th?

18

That would have been a Sunday.

19

Okay.

20

And he actually died on August the

9th is our information?

21

Yes.

22

So the County had performed an autopsy a

23

week prior to you performing your autopsy; is that

24

correct?

25

FAX 314-241-6750

Yes.
Gore Perry Reporting and Video
314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 14
1

How did you get invited to do that

autopsy, or how did you examine become involved in

that?

As I recall,

I was called by an attorney

for the family, Mr.

family,

and do a second autopsy.

was the attorney for the

and he called me and asked if I could come

And now that you are in private practice,

how long have you been in private practice?

10

Well, part of being a medical examiner, my

11

50 years starting in New York City was to do private

12

practice in addition to medical examiner work in

13

part because traditionally medical examiners always

14

work for counties and always got paid less than

15

other doctors, they make up on it, you can do some

16

private work.

So I do private work also, but since

17

2012,

I've been doing more private work

18

when I retired from the State Police.

19
20

I think,

And does that consist of you doing second

autopsies generally?

21

Well --

22

Or additional autopsies?

23

It generally consist of reviewing records.

24

Okay.

25

However, it also includes doing second

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 15
1

optionies, doing first autopsies, and testifying

about the findings sometimes.

Now, and you mention money, so that kind

of prompts me to ask this question.

to do this autopsy concerning Michael Brown?

7
8

9
10

No,

Were you paid

I am doing this pro bono and about a

third of the work I do is pro bono.


Q

How do you make that decision what's going

to be pro bono?
A

A lot of that is how much, whether the

11

family can afford it or not.

12

indicated, then I would work it out if they can't

13

afford to pay anything, do it for pro bono and that

14

involves a lot of work for families and for

15

institutions, some institutions.

16

If an autopsy is

You have to pay for the

17

expenses of the travel and the hotel here or the

18

family pay for that?

19
20

Urn, my expenses coming and going is paid

for by the attorneys.

21
22
23
24
25

They pay for that, yes.


Thank you.

(By Ms. Whirley) Where did you perform

your autopsy at?


A

It was the funeral home where the body was

removed from the Medical Examiner's Office, if I

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 16
1

recall, the Lane Funeral Home who had been hired by

the family to do the burial services.

4
5

Was the body embalmed when you made

contact with the body for the first time?


A

Yes, when I saw the body on Sunday, the

17th, the body had already been embalmed.

Does that affect your finding in any way?

It does have an affect.

autopsies without embalming.

I prefer to do

One, it interferes

10

with a lot of toxicology if that were needed because

11

the embalming process changes the chemical makeup of

12

the body.

13

But also it changes the way injuries

14

look, the embalming process is largely formaldehyde,

15

replacing blood in the body, does change the

16

appearance of the wounds on the body and so to that

17

extent.

18

Did you feel that you were able to look at

19

the body, and I'm sure I'll ask you in a minute, all

20

the documents and information that you have viewed

21

or inspected to come up with your findings, did you

22

feel that you were able to make an accurate finding

23

though based on even the body being embalmed

24

already?

25

FAX 314-241-6750

I thought I could make an approximate


Gore Perry Reporting and Video
314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 17
1

finding.

Okay.

I could tell bullet holes.

Okay.

For example, but some bullet holes may be

difficult to tell entrance or exit after the body is

embalmed.

appearance because the embalming process takes out

color from the body, it causes the color to be gray

10
11

And certain injuries are diminished in

in the body, more so than during life.


Q

Tell us what information, documents or

12

things that you inspected to come up with your

13

finding,

14

recently viewed some things that were necessary; is

15

that right?

16

and you did not write a report.

You just

Yesterday I viewed a lot of materials that

17

are important in arriving at conclusions.

18

I'm telling you today incorporates much of what I

19

saw yesterday.

20
21
22

So what

Tell us everything you viewed to come to

your conclusions?
A

Initially, initially, I do the decedent,

23

Mr. Brown, who had already been autopsied, that also

24

changes, the autopsy itself can change appearance of

25

injuries and wounds, especially things that are

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 18
1

removed from the body.

Obviously, bullets are

removed.

but we see the spaces where they were.

We can't see where the bullets wound up,

The organs are dissected, there are

changes in appearance of wounds just on the basis of

the first autopsy and the embalming adds onto it.

So I asked at the beginning, and

yesterday I was able to see the following of those.

Went to the Medical Examiner's Office, very

10

courteous and professional.

They have photographs

11

and x-rays, they took a lot of x-rays.

12

What do the x-rays help you with?

13

The x-rays show what the body looked like

14

before the autopsy was done.

The x-ray was taken

15

before, about 30 x-rays or so.

16

that were there because sometimes during an autopsy

17

the person doing the autopsy causes fractures,

18

necessary to open up the chest cage and things.

They show fractures

19

Okay.

20

And so the x-rays are the best indicator

21

where the bullets are,

can see right where the

22

bullets were, which bones were intact and which

23

bones were fractured before the incisions were made.

24

I see.

25

The autopsy is done with two incisions.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 19
l O n e for the chest and abdomen, and one for the head.
2

And that, so that was helpful.

There

were x-rays and photographs.

though, at the Medical Examiner's Office were all

after the first autopsy was done.

autopsy sutures and all and went from the Medical

Examiner's Office to the police department and there

was able to view the autopsies

and they took many photographs of the body before

10

the autopsy was done.

The photographs,

That is after the

(sic) the police took

They were extremely helpful.

11

We have some of those photographs.

12

Yes,

13

I went through some that might be

helpful.

14

Okay.

15

And that answered a lot of questions I had

16

as to entrance, exit, closeness of the gun at the

17

time of discharge.

18

I also looked at clothing, the

19

clothing was very important.

20

the two most important to the hospital pathologist,

21

90 percent,

22

country, hospital pathologists, the most important

23

part of an autopsy is internal organ, the heart, the

24

brain, the lungs,

25

where natural diseases occur.

FAX 314-241-6750

Clothing is always,

95 percent of pathologists in the

kidneys, they're important, that's

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 20
1

To the forensic pathologist the most

important is the skin, that's where we see all

patterns of injury, we see forensic evidence, trace

evidence, blood, hairs, fiber,

can be on the outside of the body.

semen, saliva, that

And the skin, the clothing is part of

the skin to us because the clothing and the skin

contain patterns of injury, gunshot powders, cut

wounds, and also trace evidence.

10

At the police headquarter building

11

was able to look through and see all of the many

12

photographs that were taken by the police and in the

13

body in the virgin state for us.

14

washed or touched or anything and the clothing.

15
16

Having not been

The clothing, the x-rays, the body, you

actually saw the body?

17

Yes.

18

Did you review the reports from, well,

19
20
21

from Dr.
A

's report?
I'm sorry,

about a week or two ago I was

sent a leaked report, a leaked autopsy.

22

What did you call it?

23

Leaked.

24

Leaked?

25

That means it wasn't officially, it wasn't

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 21
1

officially released.

leaked information as to how accurate it is.

yesterday when I went to the Medical Examiner's

Office, I was provided with an official copy with

the gross autopsies, the microscopic studies and

toxicology, which turned out to be pretty similar to

what had come out before, but the family still has a

copy too.

10
11

I'm always concerned about

If I may interject.
Sure.
MS. ALIZADEH:

And

I'm sorry, if you may what?

Interject about the family.

The reason

12

that I was called by Mr.

, you know, a week

13

later rather than right away, sometimes families are

14

concerned about a death, they want a second autopsy,

15

they don't trust the first one necessarily, they

16

call the next day.

17

delayed as explained to me is that the family had

18

been waiting for some information about the death,

19

cause of death, for example.

The reason that there was a week

20

And also I find,

21

medical examiners when we see next of kin and

22

whether it's everyday work or situation like this,

23

one of the questions the family often has is did he

24

suffer, did my loved one suffer in dying.

25

FAX 314-241-6750

in all our work as

One of our job as medical examiners


Gore Perry Reporting and Video
314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 22
1

is explain what happened and to try to make it as

less suffering as possible, make them feel a little

bit the art of being a medical examiner.

In this incident they hadn't heard

anything, they read the stuff in the newspaper.

The

reason I came down was to do my examination because

they didn't know they were going to get information

as to cause of death.

didn't know how much he was shot and where he was

They know he was shot, they

10

shot.

To this day they still haven't received a

11

report.

12

gotten an official report so that's one of the

13

reasons why families get a second autopsy.

14

great believer in media transparency, that's another

15

topic.

I got it yesterday, the family hasn't

16

I'm a

So when I met with the family that

17

was the first question was, did he suffer.

18

explained when that, one of bullet wounds in the top

19

of the head went through the brain, that immediately

20

caused him to lose consciousness.

21

feel a little better he wasn't laying around in

22

pain.

So that made them

23

Okay.

24

Then I gave my opinion about at least six,

25

there was a press conference that occurred the next

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014
Page 23

day, that there were from what I could see at least

six bullets struck the body.

We're going to get to that.

So that's

Okay.

Even though I hadn't had all the new

information,

information I could give.

I'll paraphrase it, that's the kind of

Since you have gotten some additional

10

information as recent as yesterday, that doesn't

11

change your opinion as to how many shots the body

12

received though?

13

No,

I think that in going over everything,

14

my opinion now is that there were seven bullets that

15

struck the body.

16

We'll go through that in just a minute.

17

So you did get a chance to review the medical

18

examiner's report and also the toxicology report; is

19

that correct?

20

Yes.

21

And there was a microscopic skin --

22

Microscopic slides.

23

Slides, go ahead.

24

Of the skin.

25

Microscopic slides of the

skin of the hand wound.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 24
1

You determined it was a hand wound?

Well, yes, but they told me that.

Someone told you it was a hand wound?

didn't make that determination?

it a hand wound?

Yes, yes.

You

In your opinion was

Slides, you know, are labeled,

so that, and the only slide because that was the

only slides they took.

Okay.

10

They didn't do microscopic examine of the

11

heart, lung, all of that, which is usually done.

12

The only sections that they make slides out of was

13

the right-hand wound.

14

We have photos of that?

15

And some tissue that was taken from the

16

car, the police car.

17

Did you look at all of that?

18

Yes.

19

Okay.

Were you given access to what you

20

needed in order to come up with your findings and

21

conclusions?

22

Yes.

23

All right.

I'm going to let you look at

24

some photographs.

25

questions while you are looking at the photographs

FAX 314-241-6750

And I'm going to does you some

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014
Page 25

and these are photographs that you thought might be

helpful in you explaining the injuries to Michael

Brown,

correct?

Yes.

Okay.

Let me ask you before I go into the

photos, did anyone assist you with your, with the

autopsy?

Yes.

Who assisted you?

10

There was a young man named

11

Is he also a medical examiner or a doctor?

12

No, no, he was a person that had been

13

hired before I got there,

14

there.

15

in an autopsy needs an assistant,

16

director to help move the body and things like that.

Who was an assist to the autopsy.

17
engaged,

19

assist.

21

often the funeral

I'm not sure what this young man who was to

Because you didn't hire him, he wasn't

someone on your team that you brought in?

22

No.

23

Had you met him before?

24

Not that I recall.

25

Everybody

And in this instance they had

18

20

it was days before I got

He brought a

photograph that about ten years ago when he was a

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 26
1

student, not medical student, at the University of

Kansas and I came to the University of Kansas to do

an autopsy in some controversial matter that he was

a student, had worked summers at the medical

examiner's office there and he was there.

a picture for him and he brought the picture and to

remind me, he was,

that time.

I signed

I think, a college student at

Okay.

10

But I had never worked with him or

11
12

anything.
Q

I see.

So let's go back to the funeral

13

home that Sunday.

14

you went to the funeral home that Sunday to do the

15

autopsy?

16

Was it early in the morning when

I came in early morning by plane from New

17

York and I guess it was 11:00, 12:00, 1:00 when I

18

started the autopsy.

19

in St. Louis and brought down to the funeral home

20

and shortly thereafter, began the re-autopsy.

21
22
23
24
25

Re-autopsy.

I was picked up at the airport

How long do you think that

re-autopsy took?
A

Oh, probably about four hours or so, plus

or minus an hour, take a few hours.


Q

FAX 314-241-6750

When you first saw the body, what

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 27
1

condition was it in?

mean, was it ready for autopsy or was, go ahead.

I know it was embalmed, I

The body had been, the body had been in

the funeral parlor long enough to be embalmed, so it

had been there for a few days.

table, one of the embalming tables in the funeral

parlor similar to autopsy tables ready for

re-autopsy.

10
11

The body was on a

What does that look like when you say

ready for re-autopsy?


A

I think it was,

I don't recall

12

specifically, a sheet over the body, a white sheet.

13

When I removed the sheet, the body was on the metal,

14

the top of the autopsy table and nude.

15

Was it sutured or not?

16

The body was sutured.

There are two

17

incisions that are made in an autopsy, one is what

18

is called the Y shaped incision.

19

shoulder down to the breast bone and the right

20

shoulder down and then down to the pubic area.

21

it is opened up, it permits examination of the chest

22

organ, the heart and lungs, the abdominal organs,

23

which -- and then that's sutured up afterwards.

24

then there is one incision, second incision is made

25

from back of the, ear to ear, the back of the head

FAX 314-241-6750

It goes from left

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

When

And

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 28
1

that permits removal of the tissue of the skin to

bend them forward and take the brain out and examine

the brain.

4
5

And then when these sutures are, when


these incisions are sewed up, this is universal.

Okay.

In other countries as well.

When the

incisions are sewed up, one can present the body to

the family,

clothing covers the chest incisions, and

10

a pillow will cover the back incision so that in the

11

normal course, one can tell by looking at the

12

remains and paying respects whether an autopsy has

13

been done or not.

14

When you saw the body for the first time,

15

it was sewed up, so you had to open it to do your

16

autopsy?

17

Yes.

18

Did you do that yourself?

19

Yes.

20

So what things did your assistant do?

21

He helped moved the body and to turn the

22

body so that I could see the back.

23

the kind of things that funeral directors do when

24

you go to a funeral home.

25

FAX 314-241-6750

Usually this is

Okay.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 29
1

And there's no special requirement and

that he also then, he had seen the body before it

was embalmed, you know, when it came there and he

gave me, told me what it looked like before the

embalming.

but I don't recall specifically.

I think he had some pictures of that,

Okay.

He was interested in trying to work out

9
10
11

12
13

the different bullet tracks, which gave me some


opinions about.
Q

But you made the determination of the

bullet tracks?
A

14

Oh, yes.
MS. ALIZADEH:

Can I interrupt you for a

15

minute.

16

determining the bullet tracks,

17

What you said that, who was interested in


is that Mr.

Yes, he was a very enthusiastic young

18

person.

19

bullet track that went in the head on the top and

20

things like that, but my opinions are my own.

21
22
23

He was making suggestions to me, well, this

MS. ALIZADEH:

Sure.

I just didn't hear

who you said.


A

, he was the only one there besides

24

myself, and also he could photograph.

25

camera and he took photographs of the autopsy while

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

He had a

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 30
1
2

it was being performed.


Q

(By Ms. Whirley)

Do you feel that your

autopsy is independent of St. Louis County's autopsy

or how would you categorize it?

It is independent of it sure, but I review

what I could tell from the examination what St.

Louis County Medical Examiner's Office had done.

They had done a thorough examination and by

examining, you know,

status of the organs, all the

10

organs have been dissected and placed in a plastic

11

bag at the time and the bullet tracks were still

12

apparent.

13

Okay.

14

They weren't removed, the bullets were

15
16

removed, but not the bullet tracks.


Q

So tell us what you did as you performed

17

your autopsy and then we can maybe go through some

18

photos if that's helpful or we can wait on the

19

photos, so kind of tell us what did you do first

20

when you arrived there?

21

What I did first was examine the outside

22

of the body.

23

the back is important to make sure that there was,

24

there wasn't any kind of injury or perforation of

25

the back that could be overlooked if one doesn't

FAX 314-241-6750

And to examine the head, the front,

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 31
1

look at the back.

Then a second autopsy often is easier

than the first because the incisions have been made,

the ribs have been cut through, the skull bones have

been cut through to get to the brain.

sense it is easier, of course, it doesn't tell you

as much as the first autopsy necessarily.

the first autopsy has changed things around a bit.

So in this situation, when I review

So in one

Because

10

the internal organs, they're pretty normal in

11

appearance for the age and his build and all.

12

There were bullet perforations of the

13

right lung that then coincided, correlated with

14

gunshot wounds on the outside of the body.

15

part of the autopsy had to do with reconstructing

16

what the bullet wounds were, where they entered,

17

where they exited, and then to my interpretation two

18

bullet wounds could have been reentry wounds.

19

couldn't be certain about those until I saw what the

20

official autopsy showed, which is one I received

21

recently, yes.

22

Okay.

23

And the photographs.

A large

So that was a large

24

part of what I did is to determine the nature of the

25

gunshot wounds and the direct entrance, exit,

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 32
1

directions and the closeness.

about.

That's what we certainly want to know

So you open the body and you

inspected the body for injuries and wounds, gunshot

wounds and photographs were taken?

First thing I did, the biggest time was

spent looking at the outside of the body.

Outside of the body?

10

Before opening up the inside.

11

Before we talk about any of the gunshot

12

wounds, let's talk about other potential injuries.

13

You mayor may not have seen them.

14

bruising to the body, like bruises on the knees or

15

anywhere on the body, did you note any bruising?

Did you see any

16

Yes.

17

Can you tell us where you noted the

18

bruising?

19

Well,

I thought the significant bruising

20

was around the right eye.

21

I'm still not clear about how it developed,

22

the eye and on the side and below the right eye.

23

addition to the gunshot wound that went through the

24

eye.

25

FAX 314-241-6750

He had a lot of bruising,


above
In

So you think the bruising had nothing to

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 33
1

do, not nothing to do, was not from the gunshot

wound that you are discussing?

No, there was a gunshot wound,

I'm sure

the people are familiar better than I am than what

I'm talking about right now.

wound of entrance just right of the forehead or so

and that went down and caused a lot of damage, went

downhill through the eye and the orbit.

There was one gunshot

In addition to that, there was

10

scraping abrasions around the eye, bullet wounds

11

don't cause scraping abrasions, rubbing abrasions

12

against something.

13

That prompts me to ask you, did you get

14

any information as to the fact of what happened, did

15

you get any witnesses' versions of what occurred

16

during this shooting?

17

I did read an occasion when up in New York

18

the controversy that was going on in Ferguson, some

19

people, the hands were up,

20

charging the officer, so I was familiar with the

21

controversy.

22

23
24
25

some people said he was

Did you hear that he fell face forward

once he has shot in the head, did you hear that?


A

I would assume that bullet wound in the

head causes immediate lost of consciousness and

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 34
1

ability to stand upright.

after being shot in the head, yes.

So he would have fallen

So if he fell face forward, would that

account for the bruising that you are referring to

or you don't think, tell us what you think?


I don't know.

Probably, and to this day I

don't know.

scene to see the composition of the roadway that he

fell on.

Maybe I should have gone over to the

10

But usually falling face down, for

11

example, causes bruising of the nose.

12

kind of protected.

13

person falls face forward instinctively put their

14

hands out to protect themselves.

15

The face is

We have, people normally, normal

When somebody loses consciousness or

16

somebody is drunk, you see this in people who are

17

drunk, they can fall face forward and not

18

instinctively protect themself.

19

bruising in the prominences of the face, the nose

20

gets most of the damage.

21

And then the

The eye sockets don't, they are

22

recessed a bit.

23

down, and then falling face down you get ruptured

24

blood vessels and bruises being black and blue

25

marks.

FAX 314-241-6750

So I think that by falling face

Abrasions being scrape marks on the skin,


Gore Perry Reporting and Video
314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 35
1

like your child falls down and skids along some

ground, they can get scrapes.

The scrapes are different than black

and blue marks.

There were scrapes here.

So it

happen to rub against something, it is rubbing of

the outer layer of the skin.

would have occurred from an unprotected fall.

the nose was not that damaged either.

I don't think that

Okay.

10

Just because you lose consciousness

And

11

doesn't mean you fall immediately, it's just

12

crumbled to the ground is more common, you crumble

13

down and fall.

14

it was more scraping, not clear why.

15
16
17

Different ways of falling and that

What about bruising to his, did you see

any bruising on his wrists or his arms?


A

I saw one of the wrists had a little bit

18

of a bruise that I'm not sure what it was caused by.

19

Looks like he had something around the wrist that

20

caused a linear abrasion of some kind.

21

think very significant.

22

I didn't

Is that something you can tell whether

23

that bruise occurred contemporaneously with all of

24

these injuries or is this looking like an old

25

bruise.

FAX 314-241-6750

I know most doctors say it is difficult to

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 36
1

date a bruise.

happened contemporaneously with all the injuries?

Did it look like something that

It could have, but it could have been

there for a day before or something, not a week

before.

Okay.

We can't tell a few minutes before death

or a day before death by just looking at it.

Sometimes under the microscope we can tell.

But we

10

could also, some of these injuries can occur after

11

death, you know, when the person is put in a body

12

bag and tied up in the body bag just so it doesn't

13

move, that can leave patterns also on the dead body

14

so.

15

All right.

16

I don't know how those little bruises

17

happen.

18

Did you see any bruising to his neck area?

19

I did not.

20

Okay.

I mention the knees,

I don't know

21

if you gave me an answer, did you see any bruising

22

to his knees.

23
24
25

I don't recall,

I don't think there was

any significance.
Q

FAX 314-241-6750

Okay.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 37
1
2
3

I know that's mentioned in the autopsy

protocol.
Q

Okay.

So let's look at some of the photos

and you can tell us, first of all, you thought there

was 17 shots that he received?

Seven different bullets that struck him.

Okay.

As oppose to bullet tracks.

Tell us about that?


One of the

tracks was a graze of the biceps of the arm and that

10

came across the arm and didn't do any significant

11

damage to Mr. Brown and it is very difficult to be

12

able to tell direction from that.

13

to, medical examiner is one to two feet or less.

14

It was not close

That is, we can tell distance,

15

usually up to a foot or sometimes two feet,

16

and a half by the amount of powder that's

17

distributed with the bullet.

18

a foot

Beyond that, we can't tell two feet

19

from 20 feet or 40 feet,

you know, shot from 40

20

would be the same marks and from 3 feet from a

21

medical examiner's point of view.

22

Okay.

23

So depending on the ammunition and the

24

weapon discharged, 12 inches to 18 inches away

25

because then you see some powder, but as you get

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 38
1

further away the powder spreads out, so that's how

we judge closeness.

Were any of the gunshot wounds that you

observed, would you consider any of those close

range shots?

Yes, the one in the hand is close.

And you determined that that is an injury

from a gunshot wound?

Yes, yes.

10

How did you make that determination?

11

Well,

I could tell, you know, when I first

12

saw the body that's a typical graze injury of the

13

tissues of the palm of the hand because graze

14

injuries will look different depending.

15

The hand in any of those photos?

16

Yes.

17

Tell me which one you like me to put up

18

first.

19

If I may do it this way.

This is the only one that was close.

20

These are the photographs that I looked at, these

21

are your photographs.

22

first time yesterday afternoon and they are very

23

helpful in this regard.

24
25

Okay.

I looked at these for the

So we'll put those up.

from Grand Jury Exhibit Number 7.

FAX 314-241-6750

These are

And the first one

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 39
1

that I'm going to put on the Elmo, we call it, is,

this is Number 75.

3
4

There's a laser pointer.


A

If I can just go here

if that's okay.
MS. WHIRLEY:

Can I just get up?

I'll just put that over here

in case you need it.


A

This is a photograph taken by the police

after the body, after the hand has been washed.

10

Now, when I saw this photograph, the hand, it was

11

all gray and washed off and embalmed.

12

tell it was a gunshot graze just like the wound on

13

the right biceps muscle, but not direction and not

14

distance.

15

And I could

In this photograph in looking at the

16

print, which is sharper, there is some powder here

17

around one edge of it.

18

photograph, can I see the next one?

19
20
21
22

25

(By Ms. Whirley)

Sure.

Want me to put

that on there for you?


A

Yes.

There is an interesting pattern that

can happen here.

23
24

And it is an interesting

MS. ALIZADEH:

Can you turn it the other

direction?
A

FAX 314-241-6750

Thank you.

You see what happens in a

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 40
1

graze wound is that the tearing of the skin tells

you direction.

So inverted Christmas tree.


The fact that these are going upwards

would indicate that the entrance is down here and

going in this direction.

this Christmas tree this way and upside down

Christmas tree is going that way, that's how the

tissues tear when there's a graze wound in areas of

some loose tissue that's in the palm of the hand

10
11

Because of, if you see

kind of thing.
Q

(By Ms. Whirley)

So the entrance where it

12

entered is tighter than where it came out, it starts

13

to spread?

14

Yeah, but it is these things that tells.

15

Okay.

16

It goes in here and there is some on the

17

print, there is a little bit of blackish, tiny bit

18

of blackish coloration, and that's what the medical

19

examiner found on the microscopic.

20

interesting when I look at it, after the embalming

21

because body gets washed and all of that,

22

see any powder.

It was

I couldn't

23

When the medical examiner looked at

24

it in the fresh state, he didn't either because he

25

puts in the autopsy that there's no gunshot powder

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 41
1

and then I didn't see any gunshot powder, he sees it

under the microscope.

When I look at this now and there's a

little blackening there that I think is not due to

any artifact, that's really blackening due to some

powder.

So that the weapon, the muzzle was

near to this within a few inches, it wasn't contact,

but within a few inches in my opinion at the time of

10
11

discharge.
Q

Can you tell by that injury where the

12

shooter and the person who was shot, what their

13

positions were?

14

I can tell that the weapon, the muzzle of

15

the weapon, in all of the reconstruction that

16

medical examiners do, tell the muzzle of the weapon

17

and the place the bullet enters where it is.

18

gun had to be somewhere around, you know, that kind

19

of a line, but I can't tell, we can't tell from an

20

autopsy whether the hand is going forward or pulling

21

backward or standing still.

22

the gun is going forward or backward.

23

say at the instant of firing,

24

six, four,

25

few inches away at the time of the discharge and

FAX 314-241-6750

five,

So the

We can't tell whether


All we can

I would say roughly

six inches away, the weapon was a

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 42
1

struck.

I wasn't able,

could have been open or not open.

I can't tell, the fingers

But at this point the bullet would

have gone at this point cut through the muscles

here, and that's one of the things that would be

important in reconstructing, which I couldn't get,

tried to, is the examination of the car was there a

bullet in the car or a bullet imprinted in the

vehicle to see if we knew where the bullet struck,

10

then we get an even better lining up of what

11

happened.

12
13

Okay.

There's two more photos,

Yes, they are.

15

This is Number 40,

17

I don't

know if they are helpful.

14

16

I'm saying this for the

record, this is 49.


A

I thought that maybe in this photo there's

18

a little better, a little blackening between the

19

ridges, you can see the ridges in the skin and some

20

little black soot deposit.

21

the bullet because when the bullet comes out, it is

22

an explosion that pushes the bullet out and any

23

explosion you get powder.

24

carbon, and burned and unburned gunshot powder

25

fragments.

FAX 314-241-6750

That's what comes out of

You get carbon, soot

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 43
1

It is your opinion

This is essentially powder, so the heavy,

and the powder would stay up until about four,

five inches and then it goes away.

Say that one more time,

I'm trying to

visualize.

When powder comes out of the muzzle of the

gun, it goes for four or five inches and then it

will dissipate.

And the heavier tattooing would

10

come from burnt, unburnt granules, not carbon.

11

blackening is carbon or soot.

12
13
14

That's in your opinion that's what this

Yeah.

is?

15

MS. WHIRLEY:

16
17
18

21
22

Go ahead.
You said you can't tell if

the hand or gun is moving in or out or whatever?


A

19
20

The

That's correct.
Can you tell angle, somebody

sitting or standing by this?


A

I can't tell sitting or standing, but I

can tell, see what I would say is that --

23

You can tell which way it is

24

going?

25

FAX 314-241-6750

It is coming from this direction to this

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 44
1

direction.

What I can't tell is whether anybody was

sitting or standing, no, that's all I can relate to

is the weapon, the gun and the target.

because the wrist is so mobile see, it could be held

upside down, sideways, all kind of different things.

How it was being held I can't tell, but the fact

that, so all we're doing is the muzzle to where the

bullets land, the last one there.

And I can't

Yeah, this is Exhibit Number 42.

10

Did it show, yeah, that one.

This is how

11

the photograph was taken by the police before the

12

hand was washed and there is a lot of blood around

13

here, that this wound does cause a lot of bleeding,

14

a lot of little capillaries and blood vessels there.

15

And that became important in looking

16

at the clothing.

17

clothing, you get shot and you get shot multiple

18

places and glass.

19

wouldn't really have time for blood to stop dripping

20

out of any of the wounds he had and he would have

21

collapsed immediately.

22

clothing and the drops of blood, dripping of blood

23

on his clothing, which is the lower part of the

24

shirt, the upper shirt is a lot of blood, his pants

25

or the shorts that he was wearing have a lot of

FAX 314-241-6750

Why does he have blood on his

If this happened very quickly, he

And I think the blood on his

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 45
1

blood drops on it.

And the socks he has on he had a

lot of blood, had blood drops on it.

bleeding, the only place he could have been bleeding

from is this area from here.

So that he was

My opinion is whatever happened after

incurring that wound, he was able to have blood from

here drip onto his pants and clothing and his socks

in whatever he was doing, walking or whatever he was

doing or running.

10

Were you able, based on your examination,

11

to tell which wounds happened first and what

12

sequence of shots, what the sequence was?

13

The only thing I can say this was the

14

first wound.

I cannot tell the other sequence.

15

Why do you think this was the first wound?

16

Because of the bleeding that occurred when

17

he left the car and that he had incurred the wound

18

in the car just from the history and that.

19

At some point he received the other

20

wounds, the wound in the head would have been, would

21

have caused him to lose consciousness.

22

And be fatal?

23

However that's probably the last, to next

24

to last.

25

because in order for the wound to be inflicted in

FAX 314-241-6750

If his head was down and would indicate

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 46
1

the head, top of the head, the muzzle of the weapon

has to be, this is kind of the wound in the top of

the head.

Now that could be somebody is up here

in the ceiling and shoots down, they can give me

that.

the gun I can get that, or if we accept the position

of the shooter, you can't tell unless you know the

position of the shooter.

10

If I'm lying on the ground and the muzzle of

If he's standing up, as appears from

11

what I've read, assuming that, then his head would

12

have to be down so that the shooter would have to be

13

able to fire at the top of his head.

14

And if he's down and he fired three

15

fast, quick shots, which could occur before he falls

16

to the ground, he would have one in the head, one in

17

the forehead that goes down through his jaw and one

18

in the chest that all occur with three quickly fired

19

shots.

20

So even though he crumbles, starts

21

falling immediately on the one in the head, and

22

probably could have been the last shot, if three

23

shots were gotten off, it could be done before he

24

falls to the ground and he would be in a position

25

with his head down for those three shots to occur.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 47
1

Okay.

But they would have been very quick.

Do you have any information about how long

this incident occurred from the time that he

encountered the police officer to lay dead in the

street?

It was quick, but I don't know.

All right.

I don't have any information.

10

If you want to come back and sit down you

11

can.

12

Could you go back to the

13

second,

14

put up.

15

16

I notice something in the second photo you

(By Ms. Whirley) Okay.


On the tip of his thumb

17

looks like an indentation.

18

from that, be the barrel of the gun?

19

Can you incur anything

No, the barrel of the gun at this point I

20

would expect more soot, well,

21

indentation I think is more postmortem.

22

say it happened before death because the body is

23

moved, the skin, as I said, we find most common when

24

tied up in the body bag or so, marks on the skin

25

occur just from pressure, postmortem pressure can

FAX 314-241-6750

I can't tell.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

The

You can't

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 48
1

show up like that.

or afterwards, but I can't tell.

MS. WHIRLEY:

5
6

And we can't tell what's before

Anything else?

(By Ms. Whirley) Let's talk about the

shots one at a time and you prefer to stand there?


A

Yeah.

If you are going to do that, I put

it so that the top one.

order.

10

MS. WHIRLEY:

I may have messed up your

That's okay.

The way we usually do it,

11

way we do it in New York, with multiple gunshot

12

wounds, we will describe the wounds and number them

13

from the top down.

14

Okay.

15

That doesn't in any way signify the order

16

of shots, because usually we can't tell the order of

17

shots.

18

in the autopsy report.

19
20

So the number one that was, I think also was

You kind of describe the head shot

already, correct?

21

Yes.

22

And they've seen that shot, so is there

23

anything else you want to say about that?

24

You can show it for a second.

25

Okay.

FAX 314-241-6750

That's Photo Number 99.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 49
1

And just that, even the head shot, even

they had to take the hair off to show it, it didn't

show any powder around it, which would be another

indication that it was a distance away for what it's

worth.

Okay.

This one would be a good second.

7
8

9
10

I don't know if you want to tell

me.
This is

the second going down.


Q

All right.

This is Number 95.

Let's see,

11

I'm not sure, is that a better way to look at it or

12

should I do sideways?

13
14

You know, put it sideways please, the

other way.

15

The other?

16

So he's on his back.

17

All right.

18

Now if you put it up a little up there.

19

Thank you.

20

MS. ALIZADEH:

21

MS. WHIRLEY:

22
23

When you get a chance.


You have a question?
Whose photographs are these?

These are all photographs I saw for the

24

first time yesterday that were taken by the St.

25

Louis Police Department who came to the Medical

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 50
1

Examiner's Office and the police took them all, not

the medical examiner, the ones I looked at initially

were medical examiner photographs I said, and that

was after the autopsy had been done.

were there and they took all of these photos before

the autopsy was done.


MS. ALIZADEH:

So the police

These are out of that

packet of photos, Grand Jury Exhibit Number 7.

Now, in this one, can you turn that front

10

light out.

This is a bullet wound of entrance, and

11

again, no powder around it.

12

away.

13

track, thank you, came down through the orbit, the

14

eye and caused some fractures and exited down here

15

through the jawbone on the side.

More than 18 inches

Can't tell how much more, and the bullet

16

So that was also, see, that would

17

have lined up, as I tried to figure out if he were

18

bent over to have the top of the head and then a

19

parallel line going down and exiting here.

20

And when I spoke about the abrasions,

21

see the nose is pretty good.

22

got the injuries to the body, they should be more

23

prominent on the nose and on both sides of the

24

forehead, not just on one side of the forehead.

25

FAX 314-241-6750

If he fell down and he

And I don't know, these look like


Gore Perry Reporting and Video
314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 51
1

superficial scrape marks.

sometimes, I don't even know if after the body is on

the floor and people in the course of removing the

body to the body bags, pull the body because the

person pulling the legs is stronger than the person

holding the head, they can cause some scraping

damage, but this is more than usual so I'm not sure

why.

They can happen

You prescribed linear and/or

10

scraping a relative motion between his face and

11

whatever object he scraped against.

12

head down and in a charging motion, meaning he had a

13

motion toward the officer, when he fell with his

14

final shots, could that have caused, I mean, that

15

type of abrasion.

16
17

Yeah, but then it would be most prominent

on the nose.
What if his head was turned?

18

19

If he had his

Also, there would be the object, the sand

20

or dirt would be incorporated in it.

21

like a very clean, this is before he was washed and

22

this looks all very clean.

23

here so.

24
25

(By Ms. Whirley)

This looks

The blood is still dried

I think the juror said

what if his head was turned like on that side, what

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 52
1

if it was turned toward the right side?

2
3

Head down and turned?


It's possible,

I've not seen this

extensive from that, but I don't know what the

composition of the ground is either, so that's

possible.

If he would have fallen

square on his face,

you would expect to see

something on the nose?

10

If there wasn't damage to

11

the nose, that applies he didn't land on his nose

12

first,

he had to land on one side or the other?

13

If it was caused by his landing, yes.

14

August 9th was a very, very,

15

very hot day here.

16

ground was hot and from the impact of the fall?

17

So could it possibly be the

It's possible, it's possible.

But it

18

would require movement.

19

ground wouldn't cause the scraping abrasions, it's

20

possible, it's possible.

21
22

MS. WHIRLEY:
A

Just lying there on the

We have another question?

It is kind of prominent for that.

23

I'm going to go back with

24

what you said if he would have fallen.

25

very big guy.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

Michael is a

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 53
1

Yes.

2
3
4

We do know that he fell,


with this impact, we know that he fell face forward.
A

Right.

My understanding of his

question is if he fell face forward, wouldn't there

be something on his nose, disregarding these,

wouldn't there be something on his nose that

indicated he fell face forward?

10
11

Yes, but then he added on the question

what if it was just on his right side.

12
13
14

If he fell face forward,


straight on, there would be something on his nose?
A

Yes, yes.

15
16

Some sort of an abrasion?


A

Yes.

17

So if he had his head down

18

and his head turned, that would lead us to a

19

conclusion that the abrasions would be on the side

20

of his face instead of the nose?

21

Right, yes.

22
23

Which is where these are?


A

24
25

On the right side, yes.


MS. ALIZADEH:

Just so you are clear, you

turned your head to the other side.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 54
1
2

I don't know my right from


my left.
MS. ALIZADEH:

Because the injury is to

the right side of his face.

Right.

Yeah, if he fell on his right side and he

moved forward you get certain abrasions.

has cuts here, some of these are not just scrapes,

but they're lacerations.

10
11

MS. WHIRLEY:

He also

They don't come from the

gunshot wounds?

12

No, they don't come from the gunshot

13

wound. the gunshot wound goes deeper and through the

14

eye.

15

gunshot wound would be more to the outside.

If they came from the gunshot wound, the

16
17
18

MS. WHIRLEY:

This one is going into underlying soft

tissue, so that it is underneath this.

19
20

Even if it was grazing?

MS. WHIRLEY:
A

I understand.

It is underneath the skin there and in

21

order to graze you have to be on top of the skin.

22

And this one went deep enough to go through the

23

eyeball and come out down here.

24

MS. WHIRLEY:

25

to make up of it then?

FAX 314-241-6750

Okay.

You don't know what

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014
Page 55

I'm not sure why.

I think the thing that

puzzles me is the combination of factors.

of it could be by scraping somehow, but not all of

it.

laceration,

wound.

And if this were say a blow to the face causing


it normally wouldn't cause a scraping

So it is some complex reason.

That some

Doctor, the top could be a


small fragment, bone fragment that could do that?
A

Bone fragments can protrude through the

10

skin, but in this instance it didn't, the bone

11

fragments were largely the lower portion of the

12

orbit and there was no bone fragments that were

13

protruding.

14

did is that they took these photographs before any

15

changes were made by the autopsy or by the

16

embalming.

17

the bone fragments.

18

bone fragment,

And that's the value of what the police

And I think that's an interesting point,


I don't think it was caused by

the fragmentation was lower down.

19

Thank you.

20

MS. WHIRLEY:

Anybody else?
I have one more.

21

Earlier

22

you said that you would have to see the structure of

23

where he fell to determine if any of these could

24

be

25

FAX 314-241-6750

Yes.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 56
1
2
3

You mean if it were gravely,


or if there were rocks in the road?
A

Right, yes.
Okay.

That could affect it.

And what I should

say to you, when we do autopsies in our line of

work, we try to answer as many questions and issues

that we can.

can't explain.

We often, there are findings that we


So that even issues like the cause

10

here, I can't really explain it.

And that, that

11

often happens in autopsies, you explain the major

12

ones that answer the question, but not everything.

13

And there are other experts that is a

14

gravel expert, they have gravel experts might have a

15

better idea or somebody doing experiments on

16

injuries to skin, which are very difficult to do now

17

because it needs appropriate approval by boards that

18

you can't do experiments on people that hurt people.

19

However, they can do it on pigs and animals

20

sometimes and there may be somebody around who is an

21

expert on that, but it would be more able to answer

22

the questions on that surface with the human skin.

23

It is very similar to pig skin, would develop these

24

injuries just from contact with the gravel falling

25

with a certain force.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 57
MS. WHIRLEY:

Okay.

But again, that's a value, it doesn't

indicate the cause of death, but it is a value in

what happened to him.

Now, the exit is here and then if I

might see the one difference I think I have with the

official report is.

(By Ms. Whirley) Number 86?

The other side, please, the other side

10

around.

11

I'm sorry, there we go.

12

They don't train you how to do that in law

13
14
15
16

school, I guess.

I'm just not paying close enough

attention.
A

What I would say here the bullet wound,

17

they do everything nowadays these machines, bullet

18

wound comes down through here and as I repositioned

19

the head and all and look at all the additional

20

photographs.

21

top of the clavicle here, the collar bone, this

22

bullet goes through here and this is a reentry

23

wound.

24
25

I think the bent head that is right on

It looks to me like a reentry wound.


I think the way the medical examiner

put it down as a separate entrance.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

So in that

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 58
1

regard I have one less bullet that struck Mr. Brown

than the medical examiner did, but it doesn't change

anything substantially except for forensic pathology

point of view.

into here, hits the clavicle, hits the lungs and

stops.

I think the bullet exits here, goes

A bullet that's going straight, the

one that went through the head went through a lot of

thick skull bone and a normal, which is another

10

indication that it was kind of a spent bullet by the

11

time that it goes through here and into the lung,

12

which is right next to it, it has already lost most

13

of its power.

14

think would be the difference in the way we organize

15

the tracks.

16

So that I think is reentrance that I

Here is the third bullet wound of the

17

chest that I thought might be a reentry when I did

18

the autopsy, but I think turns out with all the

19

additional information I agree with the medical

20

examiner that's an entry wound.

21

So you have the head, the face, the

22

facial one coming out here and this pretty much all

23

could be within a foot or two if fired rapidly.

24

Whether that was the last bullet wound or not in the

25

head.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 59
1

Okay.

So far from what you've described

in the photos we've seen, this would be, you talked

about three entry wounds, three bullets?

Well, actually, yes.

The head, the face,

I'm not counting this one, this is a reentry.

Right.

When I look at it close, it also has

markings of a reentry.

an entry wound would be.

It is not quite as round as


And this one would be

10

three, three of the bullet wounds and these are the

11

wounds, these are the wounds where bullets were

12

recovered it turns out.

13

The bullet was recovered here from

14

the side of the face, right side through the brain

15

from the side of the face and was recovered from

16

within the autopsy of the head.

17

The second bullet comes through the

18

face into here and then is recovered in the area of

19

the lung, and the third bullet here comes in here

20

and largely goes through causing a fracture of the

21

eighth rib.

22

See up here is the third rib and this

23

by the eighth rib and is found, goes through the

24

eighth rib and the lung, the lower portion, this

25

upper lung or lower lung on the right and it is

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014
Page 60

found next to the eighth rib in the back.

And what we found in the second

autopsy is that it was the incision made in the

back, not through any injury as it was an incision

made to recover that bullet.

In order to recover the bullet in the

back,

it was underneath the skin, they had made some

incisions at the time of the first autopsy and that

all comes into how we have to examine bodies when

10

there is a re-autopsy.

11

bullet taken out, but I didn't see the photos until

12

yesterday.

13

We inferred that there was a

And it certainly didn't look like any

14

injury, he was shot in his back anywhere; is that

15

correct?

16
17

No, no, he was shot here and it went to

the back.

18

So there was no injury to his back?

19

That's right, no injuries to the back.

20

Okay.

21

The issue comes up with the arms,

22
23

24

All right.
yes.

When you were describing the


jaw.
A

25

FAX 314-241-6750

Yes.
I want to make sure I

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 61
1

understand.

four bullet wounds because you consider one to be a

reentry.

We're talking about three bullets, but

Yes, yes.

When you are describing that

reentry wound from the jaw, you had your head like

this.

(indicating)
A

Yes.

So based on where it is in

10

the jaw and it reenters in the body, it is pretty

11

safe to say that the head, it was like this?

12

(indicating)

13

Yes.

14
15
16

Not like this, but like


this.

(indicating)
A

17
18

Yes, yes.
Okay.

But that would still present it would be

19

with the skin of the jaw next to the clavicle, the

20

inside, you can feel your collar bone, but right

21

next to it so that that trajectory could occur.

22

The reason I ask that

23

question is because I think having your head like

24

this versus just falling forward,

25

show what you're doing more, do you understand what

FAX 314-241-6750

it is going to

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 62
1

I'm saying?

I see what you're saying.

I'm not sure of

the interpretation you have is as good of

interpretation as I have, but it would be that the

chin would be, if the chin were not right next to

it, bullet coming out of the chin would have gone

into a different place.

8
9
10
11

What I'm saying is though


that if he were simply falling forward, his head
would be more lax?
A

Yeah, yes, I think that at the time he was

12

shot his right side of his chin of the jaw was

13

against the collar bone near the midline at the time

14

he was shot.

15

going forward, going backwards, whether he's

16

standing still, I'm just saying that.

17

I can't tell from that whether he's

To explain that as a reentry

18

wound and his head is that way, if that's not a

19

reentry wound and it is separate bullet wound, his

20

head could have been either or --

21

If it is not a reentry wound, then it is a

22

separate bullet wound and that bullet was recovered,

23

those are the three that were recovered.

24
25

That comes out of his right


jaw, is that straight line from the entry point to

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 63
1

the exit point out that jaw through his skull a

straight line or did it move as it traveled around

his eye?

No, pretty much a straight line.

The

facial bones and the orbit bones, they're thin bones

and essentially when the bullet goes through, stays

within 5 or 10 degrees,

than that in this kind of a setting.

larger caliber bullet.

10

right around the skull, no exit wound sometimes?


A

MS. WHIRLEY:

18

22

25

So those are the three or four.

ones.
MS. WHIRLEY:
78.

Okay.

This is Photo Number

Is that the way you want it, Doctor?


A

23
24

You got another

Now, we have the more complicated

20
21

All right.

one?

17

19

No, this is a straight wound and it winds

up that way in probing it.

15
16

We sometimes see funny

People shot in the eye,

13
14

Especially a

things with a .22.

11
12

it doesn't go around further

Yes, thank you.


MS. WHIRLEY:

All right.

This shows the graze, the graze and that's

a bullet that struck, even though it didn't cause

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 64
1

any damage, a bullet that struck the body and as far

as we know it struck the body and disappeared.

is not in the body and I didn't see anything in the

clothing that would indicate that it landed there.

It

The clothing, unfortunately, the

T-shirt he was wearing, short sleeves, so it just

goes up to around here.

could see more of an entrance and exit in clothing

that would be helpful.

10

MS. WHIRLEY:

So in long sleeve shirts we

Did you see any gun powder

l I o n the clothing at all?


12

Nothing on the clothing.

No gun powder on

13

the clothing and from what I gather the police

14

didn't either.

15

And this is an entry wound from the

16

front, the upper arm is, you've been told about the

17

anatomical position, the imaginary anatomic position

18

that medical examiners' use.

19

palms forward at attention, all measurements are

20

done that way.

21

In autopsies, body,

It is very rare that victims are that

22

cooperative, so you can tell exactly what happened

23

because the body is mobile and in this situation, if

24

this is front anterior, the bullet came in near the

25

top and came out the back, that's a front.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

In and

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 65
l o u t gunshot wound of the upper arm.

This is a graze

wound and I think the next one shows the

controversial one.

(By Ms. Whirley) Okay.

and then we'll take a break.

right way, Doctor?

We'll do this one

Number 83, is this the

Yes, that's good, thank you.

Sure.

What's interesting here this is.

10

Should I bring it down a little bit, I

11
12

don't know if that will help or not.


A

What's interesting to me is that, you

13

know, the blood, nothing has been washed off.

14

is the entrance behind and the exit, and this bullet

15

went through a bone in the forearm.

16

the two bones in the arm, the radius and ulnar.

17

ulnar is kind of underneath the pinky and the radius

18

is on the other side.

19

This

The ulnar bone,


The

This went through the radius, the

20

x-rays that show little fragments of metal and the

21

fracture of the radius bone.

22

there's such a big exit wound, it is wobbling and it

23

had destroyed some bone.

24
25

Partly, that's why

But this is the entrance and this is


the exit and this is from behind.

FAX 314-241-6750

Now it went from

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 66
1

back to front.
Now, it could be standing at

2
3

attention, going back and front,

could be arms up,

could be arms way up, would have the same thing.

could be if the arm is in front,

mobile, if I put my arm like this, it could come in

the back of the arm and come out the front.

that situation it would have to reenter into the

body, which we don't see, which we don't see.

It

since the arm is

And in

10

Why do you see that as controversial?

11

Well, as to whether he was shot, people

12

say from the back, no injuries to the back, but I

13

interpret that as being from behind.

14

Right.

15

I know there's some controversy as to

16

whether or not he was shot while his back was to the

17

officer.

18

That's a question that we have.

19

Yeah.

20

Does this support that?

21

This would support from being shot from

22

behind.

23

There are other ways if this arm could be moved in

24

other directions, you can twist your arm around and

25

that has to be taken into account, but there isn't

FAX 314-241-6750

It didn't hit his back, but from behind.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 67
1

any kind of mark, bullet wound on the chest that

would support that.

which eyewitnesses are better and that's, that

doesn't come with medical school.

And so much of it becomes,

I guess within the bowels of reasonable

medical certainty or in your opinion, you're saying

that this injury to this forearm could have occurred

with his hand up?

Yes.

10

Or with him running and someone shooting

11

him from behind, or not running,

12

him from behind?

13

someone shooting

I'm saying at the time of the shooting the

14

gun was pointed at the back of his arm, that's all.

15

Where his arm was depends on what other information

16

you have.

17

I see.

18

This is from behind from a forensic point

19

of view.

20

MS. ALIZADEH:

21

Any questions?
Pretty much the same

22

situation in the hand, you can get an idea where the

23

gun was positioned, the trajectory of the bullet,

24

but you can't really determine the positioning of

25

the limb?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 68
1

You're right, at the moment of fire.

Okay.

A limb can go through, within a second, go

like this.

firing it is almost an instant it could go through,

the bullet, the muzzle was pointing at the back.

All I can say is at the instant of

MS. ALIZADEH:

Doctor,

you testified, and

I'm wondering if this was just an error, that you

just said that the radius was fractured?

10

I'm sorry,

I meant the ulnar,

MS. ALIZADEH:

11

12

The radius,

the ulnar.

I wanted to clarify.

I was just pointing out

13

attached to the side of the thumb, thank you, and

14

the ulnar is on the pinky.

15

MS. ALIZADEH:

16

Dr.

17

correct?

18

's opinion that the ulnar was fractured,

19
20

And that concurs with

That the -MS. ALIZADEH:

The ulnar.

Yes, thank you.


Could the difference is a

21
22

police officer not being exactly behind Mr. Brown,

23

but on the side, he could have struck here?

24

25

FAX 314-241-6750

You mean beside you?


The policeman.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 69
1

If he was positioned this way to the gun.

Exactly.

If the police are

here and I shoot, that don't mean that he shoot from

the back.

That could be from the side, but then you

see once that bullet comes out, it would strike

something if it is there.

8
9

If it is this way.

He's running and he's doing


this with his hand, you move the arm when you run

10

and the police was right there, it could strike here

11

and get out from there?

12

(indicating)

That's possible.

That would show the same

13

thing in the autopsy as with the hands up or the

14

hands around

15
16

Or could be like this?


(indicating)

17

Yes.
That is possible too?

18

19

Yes.

20

You're not going to find any

21

other thing on the body because the bullet is going

22

to go

23

Yes, yes.

24
25

FAX 314-241-6750

Thank you.
MS. WHIRLEY:

Any other questions?

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

I know

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 70
1

you probably need a break, maybe the doctor does

too.

11:04, so let's just take a break.

We'll do that now.

(Recess)
MS. WHIRLEY:

5
6

I'm not sure of the time.

So we're back on the record.

(By Ms. Whirley)

So, Doctor, tell us how

many wounds have we gone through so far?

thought six to seven.

10
11

You

I think we're gone through eight wounds

and seven bullets tracks.


Q

Okay, all right.

And tracking, when you

12

say bullet tracks, when you say tracking, what did

13

that mean, first of all?

14
15

Examining injuries to the body caused by

bullets.

16

Okay.

17

Even though some of these injuries are

18
19

less important than others.


Q

Are you able to tell like where the

20

shooter was in relation to the person that shot by

21

looking at wounds?

22

In my opinion of the seven bullets that

23

struck Mr. Brown, five came from in front of him,

24

the one in the biceps can't tell, the one that, of

25

the seven bullets that struck, one was in the hand,

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 71
1

which I think based on the, my review of the

histology and all, came while his hand was in the

car.

One came through the upper arm biceps

graze wound, can't tell which direction.

came from behind the right forearm, which could have

come from behind, the others were from in front of

him, the weapon was pointed at his front at the time

of discharge.

10

Okay.

And one

Any questions on any of that?

11

We'll look at another.

12

of Grand Jury Exhibit Number 7, photograph is Number

13

6.

14

This came out

And let's see, which way, Doctor, the other way?


A

Yes, the head by three o'clock, thank you.

15

The reason I'm showing this,

16

clothing yesterday at the police building and was

17

impressed, which I haven't realized it that there

18

were drops of blood that had come from drippings

19

from above.

20

you can see closer if you look at the socks, drops

21

of the socks.

22

I did examine his

And there was some on the socks, which

There had to be a time, from the time

23

that Mr. Brown was injured and bleeding until he

24

collapsed where the blood was coming from above.

25

And the only place I could figure out it came from

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 72
1

was the hand.

So that after he takes his hand from

the car, he is dripping blood that goes, there's

also some on the shirt, but that has a lot of blood

that developed after he was on the ground because

the body kept oozing blood while he's laying face

down after he's dead.

that occurred after he died, but these drops of

blood all came while he was alive and to me had some

10

significance about this occurring while he was going

11

away from the car.

And so there's a lot of blood

12

I can't tell from this how far away

13

from the car he was, but he did not leave that car

14

without realizing that he had suffered an injury to

15

the hand.

16

people, he knew he was bleeding, he knew he had a

17

gunshot wound to the hand.

18

Whatever psychological effect that has on

And the skin on the car matches

19

coming from here.

20

examined the car, they did a very fine job to find a

21

piece of tissue on the car because it had already

22

dried and all, when he takes the hand out of the car

23

after it's injured, it goes against, it leans

24

against the car, wherever that was taken from,

25

don't know which part of the outside it was and then

FAX 314-241-6750

So that I think that, whoever

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 73
1

he continued in a way that depends on eyewitnesses

and all.

In your review of all the information to

come up with conclusions, did you determine whether

or not Michael Brown was right or left handed?

7
8

9
10

No,

I didn't determine that from the

autopsy.
Q

Did you determine it from any other

source?
A

I think I was told he was right handed,

11

I'm not sure.

12

right-handed, but I don't know,

13

85 percent of people are

Okay.

I didn't determine.

And if, as you described the wound

14

to the hand as occurring in close range, not

15

contact, but close range while his hand was inside

16

of the car.

17

would we, should we expect to see a lot of bleeding

18

in the car?

19

And it would have bled quite a bit,

I would expect that there would be blood

20

in the car, plus blood on the weapon, you know, that

21

drops of blood came out and blood along the trail,

22

blood drops coming down don't only land on the

23

socks, they would land on the ground and it would

24

depend on how carefully the scene was examined to

25

look for a blood trail, especially in hot weather.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 74
1

One of the things about hot weather

it does things to blood and all on the ground that

makes it harder to identify.

trail can be helpful in determining how far he went.

And that kind of a

Okay.

But you know that from the position of the

body, I don't know the distance,

of distances.

I've heard all kind

But it would be your opinion that the

10

majority of the bleeding that would have occurred

11

before he fell to the ground came from the hand?

12

Yes, there was no other place that he

13

would be bleeding from.

Once he goes down on the

14

ground, he's bleeding from the head and from the

15

chest and that would accumulate with time.

16

that's why we see a lot of it on clothing on the

17

upper shirt.

18

19

through it.

20

the hand, there's a gunshot wound to the forearm?

So

But that happened after he collapses.

So when he's shot, let's kind of go


He's shot, there's a gunshot wound to

21

That comes later, yes.

22

That comes later.

Because, I believe, you

23

said it is your opinion that the gunshot wound to

24

the head would have been last; is that correct, to

25

the top of the head?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 75
1

The three of them happen in rapid

succession and certainly he would lose consciousness

on the top of the head.

5
6

All three of those are in the head region;

is that correct?
A

One in the head, one above the eye and one

around the level of the nipple on the right chest.

Okay.

Yeah, because they lineup pretty good if

10
11

So those are the three?

there was somebody shooting rapidly.


Q

Okay.

My question to you is twofold, one

12

is, once he received the shots, all the shots that

13

you examine except for the head shot, and maybe it

14

cannot be separated, I don't know.

15

have been mobile?

Would he still

16

Yes.

17

On his feet and able to run or charge at

18
19

an object?
A

I think that certainly the arm shots, the

20

arm shots would not prevent him from being mobile

21

and running front or back or whatever.

22

in the lower chest wouldn't necessarily slow him

23

down, but the one in the eye, you know, that goes

24

through his right eyeball would,

25

consciousness because it does have lines of force

FAX 314-241-6750

And the one

could make him lose

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014
Page 76

going through the brain tissue and all, but not

necessarily.

Okay.

So he could have been, now whether he

could be running or,

you know,

or walking or

whatever, would vary from person to person.

fact,

might faint,

In

some people if they're shot once in the arm


I guess he wasn't the fainting kind.

So how people react to gunshot wounds

10

is a different thing, but from the anatomy point of

11

view, he would have been able to be conscious and

12

theoretically, but for the bullet wound in the head,

13

could have been treated and survived if he went

14

right to a hospital or something.

15
16

And the wounds that are around the right,

you said there was one to the chest area,

correct?

17

Yes.

18

And you don't think he would have been

19

bleeding much from those wounds?

20

Well --

21

Before he collapsed?

22

He would be bleeding internally, but not

23

outside because bleeding usually,

24

are injured internally and then they will spill

25

outside.

FAX 314-241-6750

internal organs

When he collapses, the blood will start

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 77
1

coming out after he collapses.

I'm sorry.
No, that was the question

that I had because I was wondering,

mean, this is a big guy,

of blood in his

I'm quite sure the volume

I know when I went to the


doctor to get a flu shot, she stuck me and I didn't

10

bleed.

11

skin and I thought maybe that's why he's not

12

bleeding.

13

Is more than normal.

8
9

I said why,

She said you have good elasticity in your

That's true.

We see this a lot with knife

14

wounds, even in the heart.

The knife goes in and

15

goes out and most people, the skin and fat tissue

16

will immediately close up, you know, there isn't a

17

hole left.

18

occur through the body.

It is a slow process for bleeding to

19

Superficial cuts on the hand bleed

20

very much, and this is sort of a superficial cut

21

because there's no skin there to come together from

22

elasticity, so that's why cut wounds bleed more than

23

bullet wounds because the bullet goes in and the

24

skin elasticity and the outer most tissue underneath

25

it close it up.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 78
So when he is shot in the front,

the

blood doesn't start to come out right away.

It

could in a few minutes, but he collapses to the

ground.

blood matting the hair, although there was bleeding

that came out.

And you can see in the head, there wasn't

I can see in the scene photograph

there was some blood coming out gradually from the

top of the head, but it went downward and didn't mat

10

the hair up.

11

small amount.

It wasn't a massive amount, it was a

12

So that I think that in the normal

13

course you get very little blood coming out if a

14

person collapses right away before death occurred in

15

this case, because of that final shot.

16

(By Ms. Whirley) You said you had some

17

training or education in toxicology and that's part

18

of your total package as a medical examiner?

19

Forensic pathologist.

20

As a pathologist from looking at it.

21

Did

you look at the toxicology report in this case?

22

Yes,

I did.

23

Was there anything about the result of

24

that toxicology that in your opinion would affect

25

how he would have reacted, his behavior once he was

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 79
1
2

shot, if you are?


A very topical question.

Yeah, marijuana

is not a drug, it is a group of about 18 different

chemicals.

barbiturate or cyanide, which is just one chemical,

marijuana has all kind of different chemicals where

it is grown, the fertilizer, the water supply.

one that is most active is the Delta-9,

tetrahydrocannabinol, THe.

So that it isn't like taking a

The

He had some of that in

10

his blood.

11

affected him, however, it is a relative small amount

12

and how it affects somebody varies.

13

And that could affect, could have

Some people can have hallucinations

14

with a lot of marijuana, other people just go to

15

sleep.

16

marijuana that it made everybody go crazy, it

17

doesn't make people go crazy.

18

have been so strict on it, but now it is coming into

19

more legal status in some places.

During the '30s, 1930s, there was terror of

That's why the laws

20

Marijuana is kind of unpredictable,

21

some people can take marijuana and do funny things

22

and other people are just perfectly normal with it.

23

The problem, marijuana from the

24

toxicology point of view, marijuana gets into the

25

soft tissues and fatty tissues in the body.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

So even

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 80
1

though I smoked a joint two days ago, I might still

have little bits coming out today into the

bloodstream, or even studies have done for three or

four weeks as it's released from the fat.

So the amount of marijuana he has

could cause abnormal behavior, but usually doesn't.

The best indicator of that would be what his

behavior was in the time period before and I try to

look at that and you see the incident with the

10

cigars, where he took the cigars or the little

11

cigars.

12

marijuana I think is a guess.

13

street because of marijuana?

14

what happens with marijuana, but it could be and it

15

is too variable.

16

Would that in any way be affected by


Was he walking the
That isn't usually

If all of us smoked the same amount

17

of marijuana, we would all act differently.

18

us would just feel very nice about it, somebody

19

might not feel very bad about it and some people may

20

go to sleep and somebody might do something that he

21

wouldn't normally do, but that's, but it was

22

present, but he did take it within a day or two.

23
24
25

Dr.

Most of

, he indicated that

the amount of Delta 9-THC


A

FAX 314-241-6750

I'm sorry.
Gore Perry Reporting and Video
314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 81
1

He indicated in his

testimony that the amount of Delta 9-THC that he had

in his blood compared to the way it is broken down,

not just in the urine, but in the blood was not

consistent with just a little bit of an amount.

indicated that given, if you look at the whole

picture and not just the 12 nanograms and when it

was done, that it would indicate that it was a

larger amount than just a little bit amount of

10
11

He

marijuana, would you agree with that?


A

Well, it is definitely evidence of smoking

12

marijuana.

The problem is whether it is 12 or five

13

or 20, it affects people differently and a lot of it

14

has to do with how, what do you call it, how used to

15

it, how often a person has taken it before.

16

take it more often, it has less of an unpredictable

17

affect.

If you

18

It could have been a factor in his

19

behavior, but the best measure of his behavior is

20

what he was doing all day.

21

than he usually did, for example, and that would be

22

for friends and relatives or witnesses who saw him

23

during the day.

24

departure from his usual behavior.

25

FAX 314-241-6750

Was he acting different

Was shoplifting cigars a great

So great of a departure that one


Gore Perry Reporting and Video
314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 82
1

could say he was influenced by the marijuana or did

he do that sometimes when he didn't have marijuana.

It is interesting that no other drugs

were found and no other medications were found.

couldn't find if he had been taking any other

medications that he had stopped taking.


MS. WHIRLEY:

8
9

Why is that interesting to

you?
A

Because if he was supposedly taking some

10

medications for weight or for emotional disturbance

11

or for sleep or so, and under a medical directive we

12

should see it in his bloodstream.

13

toxicology and the toxicology can tell us if

14

somebody is taking drugs you are not supposed to

15

take, like marijuana, or some they didn't take drugs

16

that they should have taken.

17

With the

Suppose somebody is on antipsychotic

18

medication and there is none in his toxicology, that

19

would indicate he wasn't taking his medication, that

20

could be a reason for his behavior.

21

So toxicology, everything it has and

22

everything it doesn't have has significance, and in

23

this instance, I think marijuana is significant that

24

he smoked marijuana, but 99 out of 100 people taking

25

marijuana aren't going to get in a fight with a

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 83
1

police officer over it in my experience.

MS. ALIZADEH:

Can I just clarify

something here, Doctor, your credentials are as a

forensic pathologist, although you have a working

understanding of toxicology, you are not a

toxicologist, correct?

MS. ALIZADEH:

8
9

10
11
12

No.

You're not a toxicologist?

No, that's correct.


MS. ALIZADEH:

You are not a

pharmacologist?
A

That's correct.
MS. ALIZADEH:

13

I would imagine you've

14

never been qualified as an expert in either of those

15

fields in any court of law in the United States,

16

correct?

17

No, that's not true because we often have,

18

we're an expert in interpreting toxicology and there

19

was for about five years I directed a toxicology

20

laboratory in New York City.

21
22
23

MS. ALIZADEH:

are not a toxicologist or a pharmacologist, correct?


A

24
25

My question is though, you

That's correct.
MS. ALIZADEH:

And although you might look

at the reports or the results that a toxicologist

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 84
1

has come up with you, yourself, cannot perform those

tests, correct?

That's correct.
MS. ALIZADEH:

And so you rely on a

toxicologist to come up with his findings and then

you mayor may not find that has any significance in

your findings,

correct?

That's correct.
MS. ALIZADEH:

But the affects, the

10

findings of a board certified toxicologist, you are

11

relying on the findings of Dr.

12

correct?

13

14

On the findings,
MS. ALIZADEH:

in this case,

yes.

So your statement that 99

15

people out of 100 wouldn't attack a police officer,

16

what's that based on?

17

Based on 20 years I worked with drug

18

addicts, on the board of directors of a number of

19

drug and alcohol programs in New York City.

20

25 years I was in New York City as medical examiner,

21

deputy medical examiner and then chief medical

22

examiner, we did lots of autopsies on drug users,

23

because we got a lot of autopsy findings in that

24

regard.

25

closely interviewing and treating drug addicts,

FAX 314-241-6750

While

I was on the board of directors and worked

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 85
1

mostly heroin addicts and alcoholics, in different

communities.

And all of them there was an issue

about marijuana because even back 20 years ago, is

marijuana the gateway drug to further and more

severe drug abuse, which was the general feeling as

far as the federal laws went.

8
9

And one of the things in talking to


drug addicts and working with drug addicts, I found

10

that marijuana did not playa significant role in

11

their behavior except for one fact, and one fact is

12

the significant fact was because it is illegal, the

13

person in contact with the seller was also in

14

contact with people who sold other drugs.

15

more vulnerable to heroin, barbiturates and other

16

things not because of their behavior, because they

17

were in contact with people who sell illegal drugs

18

and made them more vulnerable to it.

19

They were

So in my opinion working with addicts

20

clinically, as well as autopsy findings,

21

that marijuana is not any worse than alcohol.

22

MS. ALIZADEH:

I think

To clarify, Doctor, you're

23

testifying as to an expert opinion today, are you

24

testifying today that you have been qualified in a

25

court of law as an expert in toxicology?

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 86
1

Not as an expert in toxicology, the common

way I'm qualified is an expert interpreting what the

alcohol level means.

alcohol, either the unnatural deaths and homicides

and often we're asked to interpret the, not to do

it, I'm not a toxicologist, absolutely, I'm not an

expert in toxicology, but I think all forensic

pathologists have to be experts in interpreting

drugs in the body.

10

Half the cases we do involve

Is it enough to cause death.

An example, we do an autopsy and the

11

result can come back high level of barbiturates or

12

no barbiturates and yet from the history of the

13

autopsy we determined he died by a barbiturate

14

overdose.

15

diagnose a barbiturate overdose.

16

autopsy, we see that over the five days he was in

17

the hospital, the barbiturate overdose that brought

18

him there got metabolize.

19

has no barbiturates in his body, even though the

20

cause of death is a barbiturate overdose.

21

The toxicologist would say how can you


Because we do the

By the time he dies, he

There is a difference between what

22

the toxicologist is an expert in finding the

23

marijuana, absolutely, I don't do those tests at

24

all.

25

FAX 314-241-6750

MS. ALIZADEH:

Do you disagree they are

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 87
1

experts in how drugs affects the behavior or how

drugs affect the human body?

Yes, that's how the drugs affects the body

is a medical knowledge, not a toxicologist.

reason I'm a forensic pathologist, certainly in New

York get qualified to talk about that is because the

judge decides hey, you're an expert in finding that

it is a .02 or .5 or .3 alcohol, but we're going to

have the doctor interpret what that means.

10

And the

And I think a pharmacologist is a

11

little different, a pharmacologist gets more into

12

the affects of the body, but toxicologists are

13

trained in chemistry.

14

know about the affects on the body, but not from

15

training, that's just from common sense, as I'm

16

talking from common sense.

17
18

MS. ALIZADEH:

And the smart ones get to

Does anybody have any

questions?

19

Doctor, I seen that each

20

person in medicine not two plus two is four,

21

person is different.

22

23

every

Yes.
Maybe 12 nanograms of

24

marijuana is not enough for her, but it is enough

25

for me and I got a big reaction.

FAX 314-241-6750

We don't know what

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 88
1

happened when Mike Brown, we don't know if he took

those 45 nanograms an hour before and that's the

reason he tried to fight with the police, we don't

know.

Yeah,

I agree very much it affects people

differently.

You can't say that not

happen because it is impossible the amount of

marijuana he has in his body.

I'm sorry,

10
11

12

point.

13

people differently.

14

experience, I've written books about drug abuse,

15

drug abuse in general beyond from my experience with

16

heroin addicts and alcoholics in treatment programs

17

and I'm just, I just think that if somebody on

18

ectasy or was having hallucinations on LSD might

19

fight with a police officer.

20

would go to sleep before fighting with a police

21

officer, somebody on marijuana, I haven't, it

22

affects people differently.

23

somebody taking marijuana and fighting with a police

24

officer and just explaining it on that basis, that

25

might be relative for other reasons why he fights

FAX 314-241-6750

No, no, no, you bring up an important


That the same amount of a drug affects
And I'm just saying in my

Somebody on heroin

I think the chances of

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 89
1

with a police officer, but that's not been my

experience.

I'm not an expert in finding

marijuana, but I think I'm an expert in dealing with

people who have spent a lifetime in smoking

marijuana in these different programs.


MS. ALIZADEH:

Do you have any information

about Michael Brown's history of drug use?

Not specifically, but I think the answer

10

that was being brought up is that, you are better at

11

me in this, what were people saying, how was he

12

acting before this episode would be a better

13

indication of affects of marijuana because marijuana

14

doesn't let you spend the day doing what you always

15

do and then suddenly pop off and do something very

16

different.

17

If you are on marijuana and you are

18

going to act out, you do it right away while it is

19

at its peak.

20

would be my experience.

21

MS. ALIZADEH:

22

So that's just based on

your experience?

23
24

Then they can do things, but that

Yes, and my reading of the literature on

that.

25

FAX 314-241-6750

Going back to when you first


Gore Perry Reporting and Video
314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 90
1

started the testimony today, you said the Brown

family attorney reached out to you, what did they

specially ask you to do or in what role did they ask

you to take?

Yeah, the person who reached out was the

attorney and he said the Brown family,

specifically remember this because it is not

surprising in some way.

father,

That the mother and the

it's now been a week, they don't know why

10

their son died and they had other questions.

11

they're concerned that they might not, they have

12

been told it might be weeks or months before they

13

are given any information while it is being

14

completed.

15

And

So they wanted an autopsy largely to

16

find out what, why the son died except besides

17

reading speculations in newspapers.

And also I find

18

out when I sat down with the family,

I came, I sat

19

down with them first, what all families do they want

20

to know, did my son suffer, you know.

21

right away, and that was the issue.

22

Did he die

The issue wasn't did he get shot by

23

the police because that was pretty obvious, but the

24

issue was what happened, how many times was he shot,

25

did he have pain and suffering because that was the

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 91
1

issue.

weren't going to be able to get this any other way,

to this day they haven't gotten it any other way.

And principally because they thought they

MS. ALIZADEH:

Doctor, you're unaware,

did provide a copy of the Medical Examiner's Report

in late October to the family's attorney?

Let me interrupt here.


I imagine, that my office

I didn't know that,

I thought that the

family's attorney October, that's not far,

I was

10

told that they had a copy from the St. Louis

11

Post-Dispatch or something.

12

MS. ALIZADEH:

So,

Well, so you are basing

13

this on stuff that other people have told you,

14

correct?

15

provided an official copy of the Medical Examiner's

16

report in late October to the attorney for Michael

17

Brown's family, whether the attorney gave it to

18

Michael Brown's family or not,

19

about that, but you're unaware then that we actually

20

provided that report to the attorney in late

21

October, correct?

22

23
24
25

So if I were to tell you our office

I have no information

Until about a week or two ago.


MS. ALIZADEH:

Late October, it is now the

13th.
A

FAX 314-241-6750

Yeah,

I didn't realize,

I wasn't told

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 92
1

that.
MS. ALIZADEH:

And in your experience as a

medical examiner in the State of New York,

there were a good number of cases that you were

involved in that involved criminal investigations,

correct?

Yes.
MS. ALIZADEH:

I imagine

You understand the need at

times for an autopsy findings to be kept, not made

10

public initially while an investigation is still

11

ongoing, would you agree that there is a, might be a

12

need or a reason that investigators might not want

13

to disclose that type of information?

14

Yes.

It might be valid or not.

As a

15

medical examiner, see we are put in the middle,

16

medical examiners should be an independent

17

scientist.

18

Dealing with patients, our concern is

19

when we do autopsies, we are doing for the family

20

and for the society in general, we always have to

21

relate to the family.

22

internal medicine before going into pathology and

23

that's what's important.

24
25

I spent a few years in

So I have found in New York that many


times when there have been encounters with

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 93
1

correction officers in jail, we had riots in jails

and encounters with police, that the sooner you're

able to tell the family what happened, remember we

do an autopsy and 95 percent of the information is

obtained within the day of the autopsy.

wait for the toxicology, histology, which is usually

not necessary legally.


Somebody shoots somebody or gets in a

We then

car accident and is drunk, we'll call that a

10

homicide, for example, a homicide.

11

autopsy report that we don't, that we don't wait for

12

everything to come through.

13

shooting, every homicide there is a toxicology on,

14

but if somebody was shot yesterday, they'll come out

15

tomorrow and tell you what the cause of death is

16

even though everything is not completed.

17

They wait on the

Even though that every

So just from my experience as a chief

18

medical examiner is that the sooner that this

19

information is given out, it calms everybody down

20

because one of the things I saw happening with the

21

family here and many other families, whenever

22

somebody dies in an encounter with the police, they

23

immediately often don't trust the police.

24

if the medical examiner doesn't release the finding

25

right away they feel, as happened here, that the

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

And then

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 94
1

medical examiner is covering up for the police, and

that has to be dealt with.

to deal with that with the family.

As a physician, I have

Now, sometimes it's a value to not

release information because you are going to get

information, you don't want people to know what

happened and you don't want people to make up

stories.
MS. ALIZADEH:

For example, I saw the

10

police officer stand over Michael Brown's body and

11

shoot him in the back, in the head as he laid face

12

down in the pavement, that couldn't possibly have

13

happened based upon your findings,

14

15

correct?

That's correct.
MS. ALIZADEH:

So wouldn't it be important

16

that maybe those findings would be withheld from the

17

general public so that witnesses who may come

18

forward and report having witnessed this incident,

19

the police may be able to determine the veracity or

20

credibility of that witness if they report something

21

that we know the findings do not support.

22

Yeah, that can happen.

However, see in

23

the old days the way we did things was the mantra is

24

you got to find,

25

on doors, telephones, whatever in the first 48

FAX 314-241-6750

interview all the witnesses,

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

knock

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 95
1

hours.

And you got to get all the stories locked

down in the 48 hours and that was the police mantra,

or shoe leather.

Now oftentimes we're going to wait a

little bit until all the DNA and the other tests

come through before we interview people during the

time they can also make up stories.


In answer to your question,

I think

that if the procedure is to interview people right

10

away, and then the autopsy findings can be released

11

within two or three days after that, it covers both

12

bases.

13

that the transparency in situations where families

14

don't trust what's going on.

I just think in my experience with families,

15

When we have seen riot situations in

16

New York City, in Harlem, or specific ones, I'm

17

thinking about the fact that we said yes, the death

18

of the innocent person was caused by a police bullet

19

and not by one of the snipers.

20

things down.

21

we're not going to cover it.

22

my feeling as a physician.

Immediately calms

They are going to continue, they know


I don't know, that's

23

: I'm trying to stay on topic.

24

I have a question for you and I know we have a time

25

crunch as well.

FAX 314-241-6750

In regards to, we have been here

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 96
1

quite awhile already, my question is going back to

the question I just asked you.

explained why the family reached out to you.

You kind of

Yes.

So it seems to me when they

reached out to you, you started an investigation of

your own, would you say that's truthful?

Yes, within my expertise.


Sure.

In addition to your

10

role as a forensic pathologist to examine the body,

11

you began investigating on your own; is that

12

correct?

13

Well, that was primarily what I did was

14

examine the body and they asked certain questions

15

about his death.

16

So how did you do that

17

investigation, outside of examining the physical

18

body, how did you investigate?

19

That's my investigation is examining the

20

body and finding out from the family what kind of

21

medical problems the person may have had and any

22

history that would be pertinent to interpret the

23

autopsy findings, but it was essentially doing the

24

autopsy.

25

FAX 314-241-6750

You said you found a leaked

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 97
1

copy of an autopsy?

Say that again,

You said you viewed a leak

3
4

autopsy, how did that come to you?

I'm sorry?

I think the lawyers send me something from

the St. Louis Post-Dispatch.

Is that a credible resource?

No.

Okay.

10

I didn't get the autopsy until yesterday

11

but I was leaked, there was an autopsy leaked.

12

think I may have even gotten it from the internet.

13

An autopsy was leaked, it looked pretty good.

14

couldn't rely on it until I saw it yesterday when it

15

was given to me by the medical examiner's office.

16
17

You viewed this leaked


autopsy report prior to your autopsy of the body?

18

No, no, there was no autopsy.

19

I spoke to

, the chief medical examiner, who I have

20

known for quite a while, and been told I was doing

21

it.

22

to see.

23

that does the first autopsy is also present at the

24

second autopsy to make sure everybody is on the same

25

page.

We invited anybody from the office to come down


I think it is always better if the person

We invited them down, they couldn't come

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 98
1

down.
I was hoping to speak with her about

2
3

the results of the first autopsy when she got

authorization from the prosecutor's office, we

didn't have that conversation.


I'm sorry,

I don't think my

question was answered,

view the leaked autopsy prior to conducting your

autopsy?

10

I can rephrase it.

I thought I answered it.

Did you

There was no

11

leaked autopsy until a couple weeks ago.

12

no autopsy,

13

prior to my autopsy and the autopsy leaking I'm

14

talking about was from two or three weeks ago.

I didn't review any autopsy findings

15
16
17

Sure.

20

So you said you got

things off the internet?


A

I got the leaked autopsy on the internet.


Okay.

18

19

There was

So you never searched

the internet for any other information?


A

No.

21

You provided us a lot of

22

information today then,

23

could just evaluate based on looking at a body.

24

made assumptions that his hand was in the car, I

25

don't know how you would have known there was a car

FAX 314-241-6750

I don't believe someone

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

You

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 99
1
2

unless you are just looking at the body -A

I read the newspaper.


Let me finish.

You said

there were drops of blood on his hands and socks

that had to have come from his hand.

you knew he knew he was bleeding, Michael Brown,

when he left the car.

kind of distances that the shooting occurred, you

said that he, Michael Brown, could have been treated

You said that

You said you've heard all

10

and survived if he received immediate medical

11

attention.

12

I mean, these are all things that seem to

13

me to be assumptions or things that you've gathered

14

from either talking to other individuals or looking

15

on the internet and doesn't to me seem factual or

16

based on your role as a forensic pathologist.

17

An autopsy can never be evaluated in a

18

vacuum, we always have to have other information

19

that we get from various sources.

20

out of a window will have the same injuries, whether

21

he was pushed, whether he jumped and committed

22

suicide or whether he fell accidently.

23

can interpret all by itself because all kind of

24

different reasons why injuries can occur.

25

FAX 314-241-6750

Somebody falling

No autopsy

What I receive, the information I


Gore Peny Reporting and Video
314-241-6750

www.gorepeny.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 100
1

received initially was what the lawyers had told me

and what I read in the New York Times about, you

know, rioting in Ferguson.

the internet.

just three weeks ago or something, but I think it is

unreliable, I agree with you, until you get an

official one.

I got the autopsy report, which is

8
9

I don't get stuff off

I read about the disputes that were


going on.

I read about how there was a leak about

10

the FBI reporting that there was Brown's blood DNA

11

in the car.

12

hand was consistent with that, that's all, not that

13

it happened that way, but other people are doing

14

other investigations in their expertise.

I could say that that injury to the

15

Any autopsy report, hospital, medical

16

examiner, forensic has to include lots of other

17

information, some of which are gotten from police,

18

some from lawyers, some from family.

19

can automatically be adopted as true just to see how

20

it correlates with the autopsy report.

21
22
23

None of which

I just asked, you know,


we're all here to find the truth.
A

Yes.

24

We are just trying to figure

25

out what is fact and what is written on the internet

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 101
1
2

or in a newspaper, we are here for the truth.


I'm not,

I'm not, what you call it,

relying on the internet.

The reason I mention the

internet is because when the autopsy report was,

we've been waiting, the family has been waiting for

the autopsy report and finally there was an

announcement that the autopsy report had been

released.

wasn't released in the normal course, it was what he

And talked with the lawyer and said it

10

called leaked through the St. Louis Post-Dispatch.

11

He sent it to me and I read it, you

12

know, it looked good but it's still, as you said,

13

I'm not going to rely on it as being the true thing

14

unless I knew it was the true thing.

15

other things you mention that the clothing, for

16

example, I saw the clothing.

17

clothing, and the drops of blood on the clothing and

18

sometimes we can find droplets of blood to be very

19

useful in our examination and it showed that it was

20

coming from above the pants and down to the floor

21

and that the only thing I could find that would go

22

along with it would be the cut in the hand.

23

And there were

I examined the

Yeah, as far as some things are, yes,

24

I rely,

25

which mayor may not be correct.

FAX 314-241-6750

I'm assuming certain things are correct,


Distances may not

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 102
1

be correct, how he was behaving may not be correct,

and your ability to gather information of what his

actions were and how he was behaving in the hours

before this episode is the best indicator of the

affects of marijuana than what I'm raising, you

know, in different forms.

medical examiners always have to take other things

into consideration.

But I just think that

And the best example of that, the

10

biggest obligation we have is to issue a death

11

certificate.

12

job that he's responsible for, he or she has to

13

certify the name of the person through various

14

means, make sure it is the right person on the death

15

certificate.

And the medical examiner, coroner's

16

Cause of death and manner of death.

17

Cause of death we find from the

18

findings at autopsy, gunshot wounds, heart attack,

19

cancer.

20

suicide, we are always relying on other people's

21

information.

22

The manner of death, natural, accident or

Falling out of the window, was he

23

washing the window at that time depends on some

24

other information that mayor may not be reliable.

25

So the manner of death, the accident, suicide,

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 103
1

homicide, always faces the problem that you raise.

2
3
4

MS. ALIZADEH:

Doctor, you are not a blood

spatter expert?
A

That's correct.
MS. ALIZADEH:

And you know you testified

that in your opinion the blood on the pants and the

socks came from the hand because it came from above

and dropped downward?

10

Yes.
MS. ALIZADEH:

Wouldn't you agree with me

11

that the injury to the face,

12

traveled through the face,

13

area, it ruptured his eyeball?

14

15

gunshot wound that

lacerated the eyebrow

Yes.
MS. ALIZADEH:

If he were in this

16

position, blood could have spattered from that

17

facial injury onto his shorts and socks; is that

18

right?

19

It's possible in the seconds before he

20

fell to the ground that could have happened, some of

21

that could have happened, yes.

22
23
24
25

MS. ALIZADEH:

You can't tell when those

spatters happened, correct?


A

Other than there were lots of spatters,

that they have been in between his getting an injury

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 104
1

and to his falling to the ground and he couldn't

have gotten that much blood on his pants and socks

just from a bullet wound that enters the scalp, went

through the eyeball, some blood can come out and

collapses to the ground.

that shot, then with his head bent over it could

have happened.
MS. ALIZADEH:

9
10
11

And you indicated also that

if that hand wound, which you said was bleeding


excessively,
A

12
13

If he was standing after

I'm sorry?

Bleeding, bleeding.
MS. ALIZADEH:

14

Bleeding a lot you said?

Bleeding a lot.
MS. ALIZADEH:

Bleeding a lot.

15

rate, the injury to his forearm,

16

forearm?

17

okay, the right

Yes.
MS. ALIZADEH:

18

But at any

We don't know when that

19

occurred, if that occurred up at the car, if that

20

occurred sometime later in the incident, correct?

21

22

Correct.
MS. ALIZADEH:

If that occurred up at the

23

car, that injury could have been the source of the

24

blood spatter on his clothing, correct?

25

FAX 314-241-6750

If his blood is in the car, comes from the

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 105
1

car and his blood is on both on his pants and is

like, yeah, it could have covered, following the

injury to the hand in the car, yes.


MS. ALIZADEH:

So, I mean, you really

can't conclude anything from the fact that other

than the blood that was on his shorts and socks came

from the body of Michael Brown and that they came

after he had been injured by a gunshot wound.

Injured with a gun, is that fair to say?

10

I think I agree with everything you say.

11

I think also that the only way I could correlate it

12

if it came from the hand, but that would be my

13

opinion.

14

that was bleeding long enough for that blood to come

15

out, yes,

16

It could come from any part of his body

I agree with you.


MS. ALIZADEH:

And if there are witnesses

17

that say when I saw him get shot they saw blood

18

spray come off his head?

19

20
21
22

Yeah.
MS. ALIZADEH:

That could have caused the

spatter that was on his socks and his pants?


A

Yeah,

I think the witnesses saw blood

23

spatter when the head was struck would be consistent

24

with what happens when somebody's shot in the head

25

with a bullet, but very little spatter occurs there

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 106
1

because blood could have come out, but it wouldn't

cause all of the blood, it could cause some of the

blood.
MS. ALIZADEH:

Okay.

Go ahead.

You did say that the hand

wound, I guess because of the way it is superficial

or the way the bullet would have hit it, it would

have bled more?

Yes.
Compared to the --

10
11

To the bullet hole, yes.

I think the

12

issue that somebody brought up was even bullet holes

13

quickly, the elasticity quickly closes up for a

14

little bit, so you get some blood.

15

rapid camera that some blood comes out, not as much

16

that comes out of the cut surface of the hand.

17

Bullet wounds in the hand is, this one is like a cut

18

wound, it didn't go in and seal up, it is a long

19

graze so that a lot of blood vessels were exposed in

20

the hand and caused bleeding.

21

You see it in a

I have a question, I'm kind

22

of curious about the original autopsy, so you did

23

get a chance to see it?

24
25

A
autopsy.

FAX 314-241-6750

I saw the photographs from the original


Most of these are the ones you looked at,
Gore Perry Reporting and Video
314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 107
1

the police took.

2
3

Did you ever see the report?


A

Then I saw recently the report, the

autopsy report, yes.

So how did the one that you

said that was leaked, how did it compare to the

original one that you saw.

It was the same, it was the same.

The

leaked autopsy report was the same as the final one,

10

but as was brought up, it is not as reliable.

11

Sometimes things get leaked and changes are made,

12

but in this instance the leaked autopsy was the same

13

as the official autopsy.

14

I have two questions.

We

15

have heard testimony from two different agencies

16

that have performed autopsies.

17

County and the Department of Justice or the

18

Department of Defense.

19

over their autopsies in great detail and their

20

findings.

21

question the validity of those, of those findings?

22

We had St. Louis

They both come in and go

Is there any reason that we should

Well,

I think,

I'm not sure.

I know what

23

I seen in the autopsy report from St. Louis County.

24

I haven't seen anything about the federal autopsy

25

report.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 108
As far as I could see with the St.

Louis County autopsy, the findings are the same.

is the interpretation we get into that can differ

depending on experience and other things.

For example, whether or not the

bullet wound in the clavicle or up by the shoulder

by the collar bone is a reentry or not.

forensic, we can disagree forensically,

any difference in the scheme of things, except it

10

It

As a
doesn't make

ads a bullet that struck the body.

11

So from my experience,

12

interpret it as a reentry wound rather than an entry

13

wound, but it really doesn't make any difference in

14

the overall interpretation of what happened.

15

I don't know if,

I would

I think as far as

16

the toxicology goes,

17

brought up by the attorney was that there are

18

toxicologists who are very good at finding

19

toxicology, and an interpretation of how long the

20

drugs last in the body.

21

the drugs lasted in the body, for example.

22

would have, uh, what do you call it, many more

23

importance than a medical examiner's interpretation,

24

but I think that the point you are in a position to

25

do much more than we can is finding out his behavior

FAX 314-241-6750

I think the issue that was

They are very good how long

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

And that

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 109
1

during the day.

If marijuana has caused his behavior

to be different than usual, that can best be

determined by other observations by people that

you've taken testimony from during the day and

marijuana if I smoke it now, if I start acting

bizarre it would be very quickly.


You know, if I'm normal behavior for

the next four hours,

I'm not suddenly going to do

10

something to act differently when the level of

11

marijuana has gone down considerably, that's all.

12

My second question is, we

13

can agree you're a pretty high profile person, and

14

you've been in the news and on the news and

15

interviewed a lot, do you recall a conversation that

16

you had with

17

to her that the presence of marijuana in Michael

18

Brown could have led him to act crazy was the actual

19

word that you used?

20

when you mentioned

I did say that, yes, it can, but it is

21

unlikely.

22

would be right away and it is unusual, but it can in

23

the whole spectrum.

24

much affect on, some would have a very soothing

25

affect, you know.

FAX 314-241-6750

And the sentence we are talking about it

Most people wouldn't have too

Medical marijuana and things like

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 110
1

that can make people feel better who are dying of

cancer and things like that, and some people can act

very unusual and crazy, but that's very unusual.

But I think you got it right.

Thank you.
MS. WHIRLEY:

Anybody else?
You know we have a copy of

the Department of Defense and we have a copy of St.

Louis County.

I'm still baffled by what you see,

10

don't have anything that shows me in writing so we

11

can compare what, what your findings are.

12

are the differences?

13

16

So what

Well, number one --

14
15

I mean, we are already after


12.
A

That's okay.

I know number one, that I'm

17

giving you an opinion in great part depends on what

18

I saw yesterday.

19

said a long time ago, until I saw the autopsy

20

photographs, what the body looked like before the

21

autopsy was done, you know, which these photographs

22

that you see are all from that time, which are very

23

significant.

24
25

I couldn't give an opinion, as I

I couldn't see the x-rays, the


clothing, were all important to me in arriving at

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 111
1

particular opinions.

As far as the autopsy, and then I

will now write a report, but I couldn't write it

yesterday,

finding.

I will write a report on the basis of my

As far as I could see from the St.

Louis report,

I don't know the other report, we

agree with everything except that reentry wound.

9
10
11

You agree with everything


except the reentry?
A

In the autopsy report is there,

I don't

12

know what the testimony has been, but is there

13

something particular that you think --

14

No, and that is my question.

15

My question is, you have made statements to the

16

press about how your findings are different than

17

ours and now --

18

I have not made such statement.

19
20

So the press is wrong?


A

Of course.

I am told one thing,

I'm told

21

that the USA Today had an article about me.

22

no idea what it said, but I find often, especially

23

in forensic, that what they say they often

24

misconstrue things.

25

FAX 314-241-6750

I have

I know.

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 112
1

So if you are referring to articles I

haven't seen, I can't answer that.

I'm telling you

that the only thing I said to the press was

initially, way at the very first day, I did the

autopsy and the next day the family had a press

conference.

find no evidence of powder on any of the gunshot

wounds and that they were all distant, beyond one or

two feet away at the time of discharge.

And I said as a basis of my findings,

10

Now, yesterday, I looked at slides, I

11

looked at things and sure enough, I looked at

12

pictures that one photo shows it nicely to me of the

13

hand that there is powder and I indicated at the

14

time you recall very careful to say that, these are

15

preliminary, these are not my final opinions.

16

if I get more information, and essentially I didn't

17

get that much information until yesterday, when I

18

went through the thing, but I would think that yes,

19

I was mistaken.

20

the hand.

21

And

There is powder, gunshot powder on

But, and I think that the only thing

22

that's different was whether we both agree that

23

there was a gunshot wound in the back, one was in

24

the back, the others were in the front, there is no

25

difference.

FAX 314-241-6750

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson


Grand Jury, Volume XXIII

November 13,2014

Page 113
1

The reason I ask that is

because you did mention you got some of your

information from the New York Times.

to point out for the record the information that we

do get from the media can be skewed.

little that's correct about it.

make sure that you know.

I just wanted

There is very

So I just wanted to

You're absolutely right, but the

information I get you see is different kind of

10

information is a lot of turmoil in Ferguson, there

11

are people making all kind of charges.

12

a problem with the interpretation, that's the

13

information that I get.

14

I don't get,

That there's

I did say that if, in my

15

opinion, if the leaked report that there's blood

16

from Brown in the car, then that would be good

17

evidence that his hand was in the car.

18

would be good evidence at the time he was bleeding,

19

that kind of thing, if.

20

out when I see what the work was.

21

what's in the newspapers are not reliable.

22
23

Then that

But all the ifs canceled


I agree with you,

Malarkey.
A

They are not reliable for forensic work

24

and the news media, if you haven't figured out, like

25

to create problems.

FAX 314-241-6750

It isn't to say A, Band C,

Gore Perry Reporting and Video


314-241-6750

www.goreperry.com