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IN THE COURT OF COMMON PLEAS
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FIRST JUDICIAL DISTRICT OF PENNSYLVANIA
TRIAL DIVISION
3 APPEARANCES:
--4
IN RE:
: TESTIMONY OF
5 ANDREW NOTARISTEFANO, ESQUIRE
Assistant District Attorney
COUNTY INVESTIGATING : STATE REPRESENTATIVE
6 For the Commonwealth
GRAND JURY XXVII
:
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C-21
:
8
MISC. NO. 0000526-2014 :
9 ALSO PRESENT:
10 BRAD BENDER, ESQUIRE
--11 MARK GILSON, ESQUIRE
December 5, 2015
12 FORTUNATO PERRI, ESQUIRE
Grand Jury Room
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
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--14
TESTIMONY
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--EXHIBITS
--DESCRIPTION PAGE
(No exhibits marked.)
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MR. NOTARISTEFANO: Do we have a


Quorum?
GRAND JUROR: Yes, we do.
MR. NOTARISTEFANO: It is December 5,
2014. The time is 11:21 a.m. We are here
with State Representative Ron Waters as well
as his attorney, Fred Perri.
Mr. Waters, you have been previously
sworn by the Supervising Grand Jury Judge,
Diana Anhalt; is that correct?
STATE REPRESENTATIVE WATERS: Yes.
MR. NOTARISTEFANO: Do you understand
all of your rights and responsibilities and
the oath that you took?
STATE REPRESENTATIVE WATERS: Yes.
MR. NOTARISTEFANO: Do you understand
that you have a right to an attorney, and, of
course, you have one sitting before you?
STATE REPRESENTATIVE WATERS: Yes.
MR. NOTARISTEFANO: And you
understand that your obligation is to tell
the truth that you are under oath here today?
STATE REPRESENTATIVE WATERS: Yes.
MR. NOTARISTEFANO: And if you feel
as though you have a legal basis not to

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answer any questions, that you may tell me to


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stop and that I will stop and you can go out
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in the hallway and speak to Mr. Perri in
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confidence and then come back in here; you
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understand that?
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STATE REPRESENTATIVE WATERS: Yes.6
MR. NOTARISTEFANO: Mr. Waters, are 7
you willing to answer my questions here
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today?
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STATE REPRESENTATIVE WATERS: Yes.
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BY MR. NOTARISTEFANO:
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Q Mr. Waters, before I get into any specific
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questions about why we are here today, I want you to
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tell the members of jury about yourself. I want to
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tell them your background, your job when you were
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first elected. We obviously know that you are a
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State Representative, the district that you
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represent. Where you worked previously before you
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became a State Representative.
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Let me start first, were you born and
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raised in Philadelphia?
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A Yes.
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Q What neighborhood?
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A I was born in Elmwood and moved to North
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Philly. I lived in the Johnson Homes. Then moved
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community with the drill team. I had formed my own


drill team to help bring children into a safe
environment and teach them life skills. And then I
got involved working with the person who used to the
be the State Representative, Anthony Williams. I
worked with him and his dad with the Community
Outreach Program that we have. There was crime in
our neighborhood and they was recruiting people to
help to combat this -- to get the men to stand up
and fight this. As a result of that and the work I
was doing there with the drill team and working with
those guys, I was the one that everyone said would
be a good replacement, the successor for the
previous State Rep.
Q So you get elected in 1999?
A Yes.
Q These are two-year terms?
A Yes.
Q House Representative for Pennsylvania
General Assembly, right?
A Yes.
Q How many times have you been reelected?
A I am going to say my first election was a
special election, which was in May of '99. I had to
run the next year. We run every even number year

to West Philadelphia at 61st and Chestnut.


Q Please keep your voice up so that everyone
can hear you.
What kind of jobs did you have before
you become a State Rep?
A All kinds of jobs. As a teenager, working
for a place that made Christmas decorations. I
delivered the newspaper as a teenager where I almost
lost my life as a paperboy being robbed. I worked
at -- I went to -- I use to be a taxi cab driver. I
went to training to become an auto body repair
person. I went to training as the manpower of a
government program to learn how to have auto repair
skills. I did that for most of my younger life.
And then later on I got an opportunity to work at
the Philadelphia Parking Authority. I worked there
from 1986 until 1999. In 1999, I was elected to the
State House to the present day.
Q How did you get into politics? How did
you get elected? What drew you there and how did
you get in?
A I always look at it like I was kind of
like drafted to come into there. I was working at
the Parking Authority and I was gainfully employed
there and outside of that I was doing work in the

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for office. So it would be -Q 2000, 2002 -A So, I guess I got it eight times.
Q And you were just recently reelected?
A Yes.
Q As you are sit here today, you are a
serving member of the State House of
Representatives, right?
A Yes.
Q What district do you represent?
A 191 located out in West Philly, Southwest
Philly, and Yeadon Borough, Delaware County. And
now I have some of Yeadon and Darby Borough.
Q Has this always been the district that you
represented?
A Yes.
Q What you are telling us is that the border
changed recently?
A Yes.
Q Other than that change, were there any
other neighborhoods that you represented before the
recent change with Yeadon Borough?
A No.
Q Mr. Waters, I want to get into the facts
of this case.

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You and I have discussed the facts of


this case; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And we have gone over the things that were
recorded with your dealings with Mr. Tyron Ali,
correct?
A Yes.
Q And you dealt with Mr. Ali from 2010 to
2012?
A Yes.
Q You are aware that there were
approximately a dozen recordings, that Mr. Ali, when
he met with you, that he was wearing a recording
device and that you were caught on tape, so to
speak, approximately a dozen times?
A Yes.
Q You are also aware that you accepted cash
payments from Mr. Ali, right?
A Yes.
Q You are aware that you personally accepted
nine cash payments from Mr. Ali totaling $8,750,
right?
A Yes.
Q And that is true, correct?
A Yes.

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Q And was there something about his dress or


his persona that led you to believe that he did have
these resources and that he could be helpful to you?
A Yes.
Q Tell us about that.
A He was dressed very nice. He had a very
nice suit on. Based on my way -- the way I thought,
it was a very nice expensive suit, nice shoes. He
had -- everything about him looked like he had
money.
Q The cash payments that he made to you, how
would he give them to you?
A In an envelope.
Q What kind of envelope?
A It was an envelope like you get from the
bank.
Q The cash payments, did they occur at a
restaurant called Raspberries in Harrisburg?
A Yes.
Q And some occurred either inside or near
your car, right?
A Yes.
Q There were payments inside your district
office in Philadelphia, right?
A Yes.

Q You are also aware that on your behalf -maybe that is a bad phrase.
You are aware for one of your
birthday parties, Mr. Ali gave $400 to Leslie
McGirth, who was organizing your birthday party, and
that paid for the Michael Jackson impersonator at
the door for that birthday party, right?
A Yes.
Q Mr. Waters, when Mr. Ali first met you, he
met you in your office in Philadelphia, correct?
A Yes.
Q And you aware that he introduced himself
as a lobbyist and said he wanted to gauge any
interest in your area and see if that -- he wanted
to gauge your interest and whether or not you would
help him, right?
A Yes.
Q What do you remember from that meeting of
what he talked to you about with respect to what he
could do for you?
A He said that he had connections or people
who he was working on behalf of and that they could
be very helpful and that he could be very helpful
through his connections. He could be very helpful
through his connections to me.

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Q And once at a birthday party?


A Yes.
Q You also remember him giving you cigars at
your birthday party?
A Yes.
Q Mr. Waters, Mr. Ali would discuss with you
certain issues that were beneficial to his
clients -- now you know them to be fictitious
clients -- but at the time you believed them to be
real clients that he was a real lobbyist for?
A Yes.
Q Some of those issues being privatization
of liquor stores, Marcellus Shale issue, the voter
identification bill, as well as trying to obtain a
collections contract with the Parking Authority,
right?
A Yes.
Q You did, in fact, set up a meeting to
facilitate an introduction for Mr. Ali with the
Executive Director of the Philadelphia Parking
Authority, who was Vince Fenerty, right?
A Yes.
Q Did you have a relationship with
Mr. Fenerty?
A Yes.

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Q How far back did you and Mr. Fenerty go?


A My entire time working for the Parking
Authority.
Q A long time?
A A long time.
Q Did you have a good relationship with
Mr. Fenerty?
A I had a good relationship. He was not
always executive director when I knew him then. As
a matter of fact, he wasn't executive director
during any of the time I was working there and he
was working there.
Q Prior to setting up that meeting with
Mr. Fenerty, you had accepted numerous cash payments
from Mr. Ali, correct?
A Yes.
Q When Mr. Ali made these cash payments to
you, he was acting as a lobbyist talking about
certain issues?
A Yes.
Q Mr. Waters, do you remember how that
conversation came up about the Parking Authority
with Mr. Ali?
A He talked about his ability to have a
positive impact on the collections of outstanding

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Authority?
A Yes.
Q Tell us what you remember from that
meeting and what happened.
A I remember Vince calling his staff into
the meeting. For some reason something I guess he
picked up that he needed to have other people there
present while he discussed the possibility of his
new process, I don't know what you call it, that Ali
wanted to share with him, new collection process and
how it would be more helpful in their ability to
make the collections. It would increase -- not the
profits, but the collections.
Q What was Mr. Fenerty's reaction to this?
A He acted kind of -- he listened. But he
accounted kind of nonchalant and he -- he didn't -he agreed not to do it.
Q Do you remember him attending one of your
birthday parties?
A Mr. Ali?
Q Yes.
A Yes.
Q And that was after the meeting with
Mr. Fenerty; is that correct?
A I can't say the time when that happened,

debt owed to the Parking Authority, City, School


District, that is how that rolls out.
Q Can you elaborate a little more about what
you remember from when he brought up the Parking
Authority?
A He said that he knew -- he was aware that
there was outstanding debt, and to my knowledge he
even had some figures that he had given me about
this outstanding debt, and that this new process or
procedure that the company could provide would help
to collect that money, which I thought would be good
for the Parking Authority.
Q So what did you do?
A I called Vince Fenerty, who is now the
Executive Director, and asked if he is interested in
a meeting to hear about this new option.
Q What happened?
A And Vince Fenerty agreed to meet him.
Q Did you go with him to the Parking
Authority and accompany Mr. Ali in that meeting?
A I did go to the meeting.
Q Did you introduce Mr. Fenerty to Mr. Ali?
A Yes.
Q Did Mr. Ali talk about his proposal to try
and obtain a collections contract with the Parking

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but I know I had a birthday and I know we did have a


meeting. I just don't remember the sequences.
Q Mr. Waters, do you remember thanking
Mr. Ali for the money every time he gave you a cash
payment?
A I did thank him.
Q Did Mr. Ali discuss any pending
legislation with you?
A Yes.
Q What pending legislation?
A He talked about the voter ID. He talked
about liquor privatization. And he talked about
Marcellus Shale. And I don't know if he talked
about anything else. But I remember him talking
about those three particularly.
Q Let's go through them briefly. We will
spend a little more time on one of them.
Marcellus Shale, is that an issue
that was pressing to the citizens of Philadelphia?
A No, not at all.
Q The liquor privatization, was that an
issue that was pressing?
A It was a conversation we had and it was
pending legislation.
Q Did the two of you have several

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conversations about proposed legislation about


liquor privatization?
A Yes.
Q And we had talked about this previously,
right?
A Yes.
Q You were concerned about union jobs,
right?
A Well, it is a union -- the union
represents the workers at the state stores, yes.
Q And that was something that was on your
mind because you were a former union person
yourself, right?
A Yes.
Q Let's talk about the voter identification
bill. What was your position on that bill?
A My position was "no."
Q Was it always "no"?
A Always "no."
Q Mr. Ali gave you $2,000 to vote "no" on
that bill, correct?
A Yes.
Q You accepted that money?
A Yes.
Q You didn't tell him, "I am voting 'no' on

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it anyway. You can keep your money," right?


A No.
Q Do you remember Mr. Ali asking you for a
personal favor about a job?
A Yes.
Q What did he ask you?
A He asked me if how long I knew the
sheriff. I did know the sheriff from working. The
sheriff use to be a State Representative. So before
he became sheriff we had established, you know, a
working relationship. As a matter of fact, he was a
close friend at one time.
Q Can you tell us the name of the sheriff
that you are referring to?
A Jewel Williams.
Q So tell us about that conversation with
Mr. Ali about the sheriff.
A He told me that he was in need of a job
for someone at the sheriff's office and he wanted to
know if I could talk to the sheriff about this
person obtaining a job there. I told him -- I
remember saying that I don't know much about those
jobs there. I said that I know Jewel. I just told
him I will talk to him.
Q And you took money from him on that day,

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right?
A Yes.
Q And he said to you that was a down payment
on that, that he was giving you money to contact
Jewel for the individual that was close to him,
right?
A Right.
Q And you didn't decline his money; you took
it?
A I took it.
Q That happened in your office?
A Yes.
Q And all these cash payments, you never
reported them, correct?
A No.
Q You didn't report them on a financial
disclosure form, right?
A No.
Q A statement of financial interest?
A No.
Q Or any campaign forms, correct?
A No.
Q You're aware that you were required to
report them, right?
A Yes.

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Q You're aware that you're required to


disclose them, right?
A Yes.
Q Nonetheless, you did not do any of that,
right?
A No, I did not.
Q Mr. Waters, why not?
A I just didn't do it. It is -- I should
have done it. I wish I would have done it, but I
didn't. I just didn't do it.
Q Mr. Waters, a couple of questions I should
have asked earlier. Did you receive any ethics
training when you became a State Representative?
A Yes.
Q Can you tell us a little bit about that
ethics training and can you tell us if you have to
periodically undergo training again?
A You do.
Q Tell us about it.
A I can't say exactly how often, but we do
have a requirement that we are brought up-to-date
about the ethic laws and any changes to the ethics
law and we go through that training. I believe it
is maybe every two years during a term.
Q During that training, do they tell you

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about requirements about reporting any kind of


financial assistance that is given to you as a State
Rep?
A There are guidelines. Yes, there are
guidelines.
Q Mr. Waters, what is your salary?
A It has just changed because of the cost of
living. It is now $85,000, a little over $85,000.
Q Is there a per diem on top of that?
A We get per diems when we come to the
Capitol.
Q What is the per diem and how much?
A That has changed a lot too. Right now, it
is up to $172 for each per diem day. Normally, it
is for when you go to a session or a committee
meeting and then you travel over 50 miles is the
threshold to this meeting and stay overnight. So it
is just taking care of the cost of any expenses that
you incur as a result of coming up to Harrisburg or
going to another place where we have to travel 50
miles for and stay at places.
Q Mr. Waters, I just want to touch on a
couple things about your relationship with Mr. Tyron
Ali.
When he first met you, he told you

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evidence that has been presented and that you have


just admitted to, you are still willing to testify
here and you just have testified here, right?
A Yes.
Q In fact, you signed a cooperation
agreement with the Commonwealth, the District
Attorney's Office, this morning; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Even though there are no charges yet, you
have already agreed to accept responsibility for
what you did, right?
A That is correct.
Q You have agreed to waive your preliminary
hearing, right?
A That is correct.
Q In the event that they return an
indictment, you've agreed to waive your preliminary
hearing, right?
A That is correct.
Q You've agreed to plead guilty at the very
first opportunity, right?
A That is correct.
Q To certain charges, right?
A That is correct.
Q And you've agreed to cooperate fully?

that he was a lobbyist, that he had gotten his


lobbing license back, and he told you that he had
certain clients that he was working for and that he
wanted to talk to you about certain issues, and that
throughout these meetings, whether it be at dinner,
on the phone, or in your office, or anywhere else,
he would talk to you about issues that were
important to his clients, which you know now are
fictitious clients; is that correct?
A Yes.
Q And when he made cash payments to you, he
told you that it was because he wanted to have a
working relationship with you about these issues to
benefit his clients, and, in fact, some of the
payments were made for specific things; is that
right?
A Yes.
Q You are sitting here testifying in front
of a Grand Jury this morning even though there are
no charges formally lodged against you at this
moment today; is that correct?
A That is correct.
Q So even though there are no charges, in
the event that this Grand Jury does return an
indictment against you with respect to certain

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A That is correct.
Q You've agreed to pay restitution in the
amount of $9,150, which includes the $8,750 that was
paid directly to you as well as $400 that was paid
to Ms. McGirth for the Michael Jackson impersonator,
right?
A That is correct.
Q You've also agreed to pay the cost of
prosecution, right?
A That is correct.
Q Now, as you testify here today, you have
no idea what your sentence could be?
A I do not.
Q You don't even know who the judge is yet?
A I don't.
Q Or if there would be a judge?
A I don't.
Q What you do know is that under the terms
of your cooperation agreement, the judge could
sentence you up to 45 years in prison?
A Yes.
Q And the judge could sentence you to no
prison?
A Yes.
Q That would be up to the discretion of the

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judge, right?
A That is correct.
Q Mr. Waters, I want to give you the
opportunity now to talk about why you did this, what
you were thinking, and how you feel about it sitting
here today?
A I accepted these cash advances or gifts
from Mr. Ali. I shouldn't have accepted them. I
take full responsibility for accepting these gifts
and I should have put them down on my financial
report or should not have accepted them at all. I
accept that. I know I made a mistake. I should not
have accepted them. I say that again and again and
again. I have beat myself over the head from time
to time and asked myself why I exposed myself to
this. I will -- I regret it. I regret it. I
regret taking it -- not taking it, but accepting it.
As a legislator, I should know better. I've been
trained better. I -- you know, I just made a
mistake. I just wish I hadn't. I wish I could go
back. I don't know what I could have been thinking
about to tell you the truth. I don't know what I
was thinking about when these meetings occurred.
That is not the kind of person I am. I've always
worked for my district. I've always worked real

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system that, in my opinion, in Pennsylvania worked


fine. It doesn't serve underaged children. It does
not serve visibly intoxicated people. It does not
stay open, like, after hours. These are reasons why
I was opposed to it.
On committees, I would talk about how
much of the tax obligation does the liquor stores
pay to the State and it came out that they pay 100
percent of their taxes owed to the State. I asked
the question, how much does the regular business pay
to the State. They said, well, an average of 90
percent of what they owe to the State. So, I
thought that was a net loss by doing that. I
thought it was a bad way to go.
In addition to the fact that there
are people who work at these stores that work real
hard in my opinion. I go there. I have frequented
those stores. I know how they serve me when I go
there in Pennsylvania. And I know how they act in
other states. I know the difference. I thought
these people work. They have families to take care
of. I have some neighbors of mine who work at the
state stores. I just was not in support of it.
On top of all that, in my opinion, it
was an effort which I have been seeing within many

hard for my district representing their interest and


something like this has never happened. It is just
recognizing what I did. I allowed myself to be
exposed and I regret it.
Q Mr. Waters, I have a couple extra
questions.
We had talked about liquor
privatization and that was something that Ali
claimed that his client was interested in, right?
A Yes.
Q And you had multiple conversations about
the privatization of liquor stores, right?
A Yes.
Q I also brought up the fact that you had a
past history of being in a union and that you had
certain position about liquor privatization because
it could affect union jobs, right?
A Well -Q Maybe I didn't -- we talked about it this
morning, whether it was in front of the Grand Jury
or not.
Why don't you just elaborate on what
I just said?
A It was a lot of reasons why I was opposed
to it. I just didn't see where we would take a

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states to go after unions and to dismantle unions.


So that was another reason why I was opposed to it.
So there was a series of reasons why
I was opposed to it.
Q Thanks for the explanation.
I think more of what I was getting
into was there was actually -- was the union issue,
that you were afraid that the privatization would
result in loss of jobs for union employees, right?
A Well, they are union employees, yes.
Q Okay. One union that was really
interested or maybe that you were concerned about, I
don't want to put the words in your mouth, was Local
1776?
A That is correct.
Q Does that ring a bell?
A Yes.
Q Wendell Young, do you know him?
A Yes.
Q Who is that?
A He is one of the union leaders.
Q Is he a union leader of 1776?
A I believe that is the union, yes.
Q The question is, did you ever talk to
Mr. Young on behalf of Ali with respect to liquor

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privatization?
1
A Did I talk to Wendell Young and Ali
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together?
3
Q No. Did you talk to Wendell Young on
4
behalf of Tyron Ali?
5
A No.
6
Q The other question I have is, did you ever
7
talk to either Vanessa Brown or Louise Bishop -- by
8
the way, you know who they are?
9
A Yes.
10
Q Two other State Representatives?
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A Yes.
12
Q Did you ever talk to either one of them
13
about taking money from Tyron Ali?
14
A No.
15
MR. NOTARISTEFANO: Mr. Waters, I am16
going to ask you and your attorney,
17
Mr. Perri, to step outside the courtroom and
18
we are going to ask the jurors if they have
19
any questions for you.
20
--21
(Whereupon, State Representative
22
Waters and his attorney exited the Grand
23
Jury Room.)
24
--25

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GRAND JUROR: I want to know besides 1


Tyron Ali, did he do this in the past.
2
GRAND JUROR: How did he come to
3
trust him? Did he know him?
4
GRAND JUROR: Did they ever research
5
his lobbying company?
6
GRAND JUROR: Where did he come from? 7
Where did he pop up from?
8
GRAND JUROR: Did he meet him when he 9
started doing the tapes?
10
MR. NOTARISTEFANO: I will ask him
11
specifically.
12
GRAND JUROR: After all this is said
13
and done, are Ali's charges going to be
14
dropped?
15
MR. NOTARISTEFANO: Yes. That
16
happened two years ago.
17
--18
(Whereupon, State Representative
19
Waters and his attorney entered the Grand
20
Jury Room.)
21
--22
MR. NOTARISTEFANO: For the record, 23
we are back with Mr. Waters and his attorney,
24
Mr. Perri. It is 12:02 p.m.
25

30
GRAND JUROR: When and how long had
he known Mr. Ali? How did he meet him? And
how long has he known him?
GRAND JUROR: Before he talked to
Ali, did anybody influence him to start
collections, to take money?
MR. NOTARISTEFANO: I think those are
two different things. Before he talked to
Tyron Ali, did anybody influence him to start
a collections contract? I think you are
talking about two different things.
You mean just taking money?
GRAND JUROR: Yes.
MR. NOTARISTEFANO: So before Mr. Ali
started giving him money, did anyone
influence him to take money from a lobbyist
or Mr. Ali or how do you want me to ask it?
GRAND JUROR: From a lobbyist.
GRAND JUROR: Has he ever dealt with
other lobbyists before that?
GRAND JUROR: Everyone keeps saying
that Ali came to him saying he could do this
and that for them. Exactly what did he tell
them he would do for them besides give him
money?

32
BY MR. NOTARISTEFANO:
Q The members of the jury basically have
three lines of questioning for you. I will start
off with the first line of questioning that has to
deal with Mr. Ali.
The first thing, I will ask you about
your relationship with Mr. Ali.
How did you meet Mr. Ali?
A Mr. Ali was brought to my attention
through my oldest daughter, Monica. She is the one
who informed me -- she is in the day care business.
She has been in the day care business for a long
time. She had informed me he was trying to meet
with me, but he couldn't meet with me. I believe
she and I were on the phone talking -- my
recollection is not as good as it used to be. I am
sorry. But I remember some way Ali presented
himself at my office and his name was mentioned, He
is here. She said to me, That is the guy that I was
telling you about. She said, He is trying to have a
meeting with you. So I said, Okay. So based on
what I had been told that he was trying to meet with
me but he couldn't get a meeting with me, my
daughter was saying that she knew him, so I
decided --

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MR. PERRI: Could we just take a


break?
MR. NOTARISTEFANO: Sure.
--(Whereupon, State Representative
Waters and his attorney exited the Grand
Jury Room.)
--(Pause.)
--(Whereupon, State Representative
Waters and his attorney entered the Grand
Jury Room.)
--MR. NOTARISTEFANO: Okay. We are
back with Mr. Waters and Mr. Perri and it is
12:07 p.m.
BY MR. NOTARISTEFANO:
Q Mr. Waters, you had just told us about how
your daughter, Monica, made the introduction to you
with respect to Mr. Ali. Just a couple of
follow-ups about that.
What understanding, if any, did you
have as to what Monica's relationship with Mr. Ali
was? You touched on it a little by saying she had a

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legislator, maybe I could help give him some


direction into how he could acquire a liquor
license. Now, that -- he never talked to me about
the liquor license to my knowledge, but that is what
she said she talked to him about. At least that is
what he said why he wanted to meet me.
Q Did you know of or have you seen Mr. Ali
before that first meeting that you talked about?
A Probably in the circles. I go to a lot of
events and I might have seen him at some events.
Q Did you ever research his company or his
lobbying firm or who he said he was working for?
A No, I did not.
Q How did you come to trust Mr. Ali?
A Through the conversations we had. If I
remember, he presented himself to me was that he was
willing to be helpful. He wanted to be helpful. He
had some great connections with people who had lots
of money and he wanted to be helpful.
Q That actually segueways into the next
question that the members of the jury had, which
was, what did Mr. Ali tell you he could do for you
other than give you money?
A He never mentioned anything else. He
never said anything other than the fact that these

day care. Can you elaborate, please?


A Mr. Ali had a day care or was running a
day care. In some way he was connected to a day
care. He talked to her about maybe building his day
care by buying up other day cares, including her day
care. That was some conversation they were having.
This is what I was told. I was not at that
conversation. This is what I was told.
Q When you say, This is what I was told, was
that what you were told at the time you met Mr. Ali
or since then?
A Umm, I can't say.
Q I guess when you first met Mr. Ali, what
was your understanding as to who he was and what his
relationship with Monica was and why you agreed to
meet with him the first time you met with him?
Do you see what I am getting at?
A Yes. Pretty much, because of the fact
that it was my daughter. That is all I needed for
me. He said he could not meet with me according to
what he told her. So he went -- he met -- he knew
her through the day care business. And now he told
her, this is what he told her. According to what my
daughter said, that he was interested in acquiring a
liquor license, and by my job or my position as a

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resources were at his disposal. He never said


anything other than that.
Q We went over the actual payments that he
made to you; resources, in general, could be
something broad.
So when you say -- and he did tell
you the resources he had available to you, that he
could be helpful to you, what did you take that to
mean and did you believe him and believe that he
could help you in the way or ways that you are going
to tell us now?
A Yes. Because he gave me something that
made it kind of substantiate his claim that he could
be helpful.
Q I asked you a compound question. It
wasn't fair on my part. I asked you two questions
in one. Let me ask you the first part a little bit
more specifically.
When he said that he had resources to
help you, other than just giving you money under the
table, so to speak, which is what happened here,
what did you understand the resources to mean that
he could help you with? In what way could he help
you other than just giving you money under the
table?

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A That was the only understanding I had,


that it would be financial help.
Q The third line of questioning that the
jurors have for you was, have you ever dealt with
other lobbyists before?
A Yes.
Q Have you taken money from other lobbyists
before that you have not reported?
A No.
Q Have you taken money from other lobbyists
before in exchange for a favor, whether it would be
personal or professional?
A No.
Q Have you taken money from other lobbyists
before where there was a potential conflict of
interest? In other words, they were asking you to
help out something that you might have had a
personal attachment to and they were giving you
money where you may be in a particular conflict?
A No.
MR. NOTARISTEFANO: Okay. Mr.
Waters, would you please step outside again?
--(Whereupon, State Representative
Waters and his attorney exited the Grand

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--MR. NOTARISTEFANO: We are back on


the record with Mr. Waters. It is 12:17 p.m.
BY MR. NOTARISTEFANO:
Q Mr. Waters, the question now is, have you
ever taken money from a lobbyist in the past that
you have reported?
A I've taken checks from lobbyists in the
past at an event. As an elected official, you have
fundraisers. You need to raise funds and I reported
those checks. It was always made out to my PAC,
those checks.
Now, the only other time that
lobbyists have given me support is in regard to an
outreach event I had where they made the check
payable to POTS -- what you call those mobile POTS
people have. If I have an event for senior citizens
and there is a check made out to the people who are
actually the sponsor of the event, I've asked
lobbyists if they can support it and they've made
checks out payable to them. Every check made
payable to me went to my PAC. Those other checks,
other than that, were made payable to the Committee
to Elect Ron Waters, and I turn those over to my
PAC. Those are direct payments that were from

Jury Room.)
--MR. NOTARISTEFANO: Does anybody have
any additional questions?
GRAND JUROR: He is saying he has
never taken money from a lobbyist previously,
or if he has taken money from a lobbyist, has
he ever completed a financial disclosure?
MR. NOTARISTEFANO: What I asked him
was have you ever taken money from a lobbyist
that you did not report; and he said, no.
GRAND JUROR: So if he has taken it,
has he reported it?
MR. NOTARISTEFANO: I can ask him.
GRAND JUROR: I just want to know.
MR. NOTARISTEFANO: Do you want me to
ask him has he taken money from a lobbyist he
has in the past reported?
GRAND JUROR: Yes, and, if so, then
why not this time?
MR. NOTARISTEFANO: I'll ask him.
--(Whereupon, State Representative
Waters and his attorney entered the Grand
Jury Room.)

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lobbyists from my fundraising events. That is the


full extent of any money I got from a lobbyist that
was made out directly to me, if that helps answer
that question.
MR. NOTARISTEFANO: That answers that
question. Thank you.
The Madam Secretary is going to
advise you at this time.
GRAND JUROR: Representative Waters,
you are hereby notified that your subpoena is
a continuing one. That means should the Jury
desire further evidence and/or testimony from
you, you will be notified to appear before
the Grand Jury by mail, phone, or through
your attorney if you have one at that time.
Do you understand?
STATE REPRESENTATIVE WATERS: Yes.
--(Testimony concluded.)
---

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CERTIFICATION
I hereby certify that the
proceedings and evidence are contained fully and
accurately in the notes taken by me on the trial of
the above cause, and this copy is a correct
transcript of the same.

Christine Staranowicz
Official Court Reporter

(The foregoing certification of


this transcript does not apply to any reproduction
of the same by any means unless under the direct
control and/or supervision of the certifying
reporter.)

afraid [1] 28/8


after [4] 15/23 27/4 28/1 31/13
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again [5] 20/17 25/13 25/13 25/14 37/22
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envelope [3] 11/13 11/14 11/15
children [2] 7/2 27/2
December 5 [1] 4/4
environment [1] 7/3
Christine [1] 41/15
decided [1] 32/25
ESQUIRE [4] 2/5 2/10 2/11 2/12
Christmas [1] 6/7
decline [1] 19/8
established [1] 18/10
cigars [1] 12/3
decorations [1] 6/7
ethic [1] 20/22
circles [1] 35/9
Delaware [1] 8/12
ethics [3] 20/12 20/16 20/22
citizens [2] 16/19 39/17
delivered [1] 6/8
even [6] 7/25 14/8 22/19 22/23 23/9 24/14
City [1] 14/1
DESCRIPTION [1] 3/5
event [6] 22/24 23/16 39/9 39/15 39/17 39/19
claim [1] 36/13
desire [1] 40/12
events [3] 35/10 35/10 40/1
claimed [1] 26/9
device [1] 9/14
ever [10] 28/24 29/7 29/13 30/19 31/5 35/11
client [1] 26/9
Diana [1] 4/10
37/4 38/8 38/10 39/6
clients [7] 12/8 12/9 12/10 22/3 22/8 22/9
did [57]
every [4] 7/25 16/4 20/24 39/21
22/14
didn't [9] 15/16 17/25 19/8 19/16 20/8 20/10 everyone [3] 6/2 7/12 30/21
close [2] 18/12 19/5
20/10 26/19 26/25
everything [1] 11/9
collect [1] 14/11
diem [3] 21/9 21/12 21/14
evidence [3] 23/1 40/12 41/4
collection [1] 15/10
diems [1] 21/10
exactly [2] 20/20 30/23
collections [7] 12/15 13/25 14/25 15/12 15/13 difference [1] 27/20
exchange [1] 37/11
30/6 30/10
different [2] 30/8 30/11
executive [4] 12/20 13/9 13/10 14/15
combat [1] 7/9
dinner [1] 22/5
exhibits [2] 3/3 3/6
come [6] 5/4 6/23 21/10 31/3 31/7 35/14
direct [2] 39/25 41/21
exited [3] 29/23 33/6 37/25
coming [1] 21/19
direction [1] 35/2
expenses [1] 21/18
committee [2] 21/15 39/23
directly [2] 24/4 40/3
expensive [1] 11/8
committees [1] 27/6
director [4] 12/20 13/9 13/10 14/15
explanation [1] 28/5
COMMON [1] 1/2
disclose [1] 20/2
exposed [2] 25/15 26/4
Commonwealth [2] 2/6 23/6
disclosure [2] 19/17 38/8
extent [1] 40/2
community [2] 7/1 7/6
discretion [1] 24/25
extra [1] 26/5
company [3] 14/10 31/6 35/11
discuss [2] 12/6 16/7
F
completed [1] 38/8
discussed [2] 9/1 15/8
compound [1] 36/15
dismantle [1] 28/1
facilitate [1] 12/19
concerned [2] 17/7 28/12
disposal [1] 36/1
fact [9] 12/18 13/10 18/11 22/14 23/5 26/14
concluded [1] 40/19
district [10] 1/2 2/5 5/17 8/10 8/14 11/23
27/15 34/18 35/25
confidence [1] 5/4
14/2 23/6 25/25 26/1
facts [2] 8/24 9/1
conflict [2] 37/15 37/19
DIVISION [1] 1/3
fair [1] 36/16
connected [1] 34/3
do [30] 4/1 4/3 4/12 4/16 8/10 10/18 10/20
families [1] 27/21
connections [4] 10/21 10/24 10/25 35/18
13/21 14/13 15/17 15/18 16/3 18/3 20/4 20/8 far [1] 13/1
contact [1] 19/4
20/10 20/18 20/20 20/25 24/13 24/18 28/18
favor [2] 18/4 37/11
contained [1] 41/4
30/17 30/22 30/24 31/2 34/17 35/22 38/16
feel [2] 4/24 25/5
continuing [1] 40/11
40/16
Fenerty [9] 12/21 12/24 13/1 13/7 13/14
contract [3] 12/15 14/25 30/10
does [8] 22/24 27/2 27/3 27/7 27/10 28/16
14/14 14/18 14/22 15/24
control [1] 41/22
38/3 41/20
Fenerty's [1] 15/14
conversation [5] 13/22 16/23 18/16 34/6 34/8 doesn't [1] 27/2
fictitious [2] 12/8 22/9
conversations [3] 17/1 26/11 35/15
doing [4] 6/25 7/11 27/13 31/10
fight [1] 7/10
cooperate [1] 23/25
don't [11] 15/9 16/2 16/13 18/22 24/14 24/15 figures [1] 14/8
cooperation [2] 23/5 24/19
24/17 25/21 25/22 26/22 28/13
financial [6] 19/16 19/19 21/2 25/10 37/2
copy [1] 41/6
done [3] 20/9 20/9 31/14
38/8
correct [25] 4/10 9/2 9/6 9/24 10/10 13/15
door [1] 10/7
fine [1] 27/2
15/24 17/21 19/14 19/21 22/9 22/21 22/22
down [2] 19/3 25/10
firm [1] 35/12
23/7 23/12 23/15 23/19 23/22 23/24 24/1
dozen [2] 9/12 9/15
first [13] 1/2 5/16 5/20 7/23 10/9 21/25 23/21
24/7 24/10 25/2 28/15 41/6
drafted [1] 6/23
32/4 32/6 34/13 34/16 35/8 36/17
cost [3] 21/7 21/18 24/8
dress [1] 11/1
follow [1] 33/22
could [25] 10/20 10/22 10/23 10/24 11/3
dressed [1] 11/6
follow-ups [1] 33/22
14/10 18/20 24/12 24/19 24/22 25/20 25/21
drew [1] 6/20
foregoing [1] 41/19
26/17 30/22 33/1 34/20 35/1 35/2 35/22 36/4 drill [3] 7/1 7/2 7/11
form [1] 19/17
36/8 36/10 36/13 36/23 36/23
driver [1] 6/10
formally [1] 22/20
couldn't [2] 32/14 32/23
dropped [1] 31/15
formed [1] 7/1
COUNTY [2] 1/6 8/12
during [3] 13/11 20/24 20/25
former [1] 17/12
couple [4] 20/11 21/23 26/5 33/21
forms [1] 19/21
E
course [1] 4/18
FORTUNATO [1] 2/12
each [1] 21/14
COURT [2] 1/2 41/16
Fred [1] 4/7
earlier [1] 20/12
courtroom [1] 29/18
frequented [1] 27/17

crime [1] 7/7

F
friend [1] 18/12
front [2] 22/18 26/20
full [2] 25/9 40/2
fully [2] 23/25 41/4
fundraisers [1] 39/10
fundraising [1] 40/1
funds [1] 39/10
further [1] 40/12

G
gainfully [1] 6/24
gauge [2] 10/13 10/15
gave [4] 10/4 16/4 17/20 36/12
general [2] 7/20 36/4
get [10] 5/12 6/19 6/20 6/21 7/9 7/15 8/24
11/15 21/10 32/23
getting [2] 28/6 34/17
gifts [2] 25/7 25/9
GILSON [1] 2/11
give [5] 11/12 25/3 30/24 35/1 35/23
given [3] 14/8 21/2 39/14
giving [6] 12/3 19/4 30/15 36/20 36/24 37/18
go [13] 5/2 13/1 14/19 14/21 16/16 20/23
21/15 25/20 27/14 27/17 27/18 28/1 35/9
going [7] 7/23 21/20 29/17 29/19 31/14 36/10
40/7
gone [1] 9/4
good [5] 7/13 13/6 13/8 14/11 32/16
got [4] 6/15 7/4 8/3 40/2
gotten [1] 22/1
government [1] 6/13
GRAND [13] 1/7 1/12 4/9 22/19 22/24 26/20
29/23 31/20 33/6 33/12 37/25 38/24 40/14
great [1] 35/18
guess [3] 8/3 15/6 34/13
guidelines [2] 21/4 21/5
guilty [1] 23/20
guy [1] 32/19
guys [1] 7/12

H
had [35] 7/1 7/24 10/21 11/6 11/9 11/9 13/8
13/14 14/8 14/8 16/1 16/23 17/4 18/10 22/1
22/2 26/7 26/11 26/14 26/15 30/1 32/13
32/22 33/19 33/25 34/2 35/15 35/18 35/18
35/21 36/7 36/19 37/1 37/17 39/15
hadn't [1] 25/20
hallway [1] 5/3
happened [7] 14/17 15/4 15/25 19/11 26/2
31/17 36/21
hard [2] 26/1 27/17
Harrisburg [2] 11/18 21/19
has [16] 8/14 21/7 21/13 23/1 26/2 30/3
30/19 32/4 32/12 38/5 38/7 38/7 38/12 38/13
38/17 38/18
have [65]
having [1] 34/6
he [140]
head [1] 25/14
hear [2] 6/3 14/16
hearing [2] 23/14 23/18
help [11] 7/2 7/9 10/16 14/10 35/1 36/10
36/20 36/23 36/23 37/2 37/17
helpful [10] 10/23 10/23 10/24 11/3 15/11
35/17 35/17 35/19 36/8 36/14
helps [1] 40/3
her [6] 34/4 34/5 34/21 34/22 34/23 34/23
here [13] 4/5 4/22 5/4 5/8 5/13 8/6 22/18
23/3 23/3 24/11 25/6 32/19 36/21
hereby [2] 40/10 41/3
him [41] 7/6 10/16 11/9 12/3 13/9 14/18
14/19 15/10 15/18 16/6 16/14 17/25 18/21

18/24 18/24 18/25 19/5 28/18 30/2 30/3 30/5


30/9 30/15 30/16 30/22 30/24 31/4 31/4 31/9
31/11 32/24 34/16 34/16 35/1 35/5 35/10
36/9 38/9 38/14 38/17 38/21
himself [3] 10/12 32/18 35/16
his [31] 4/7 7/6 10/24 10/25 11/1 11/2 12/7
13/24 14/24 15/5 15/8 19/8 22/1 22/8 22/14
26/9 29/23 31/6 31/20 31/24 32/18 33/6
33/12 34/4 34/14 35/11 35/11 36/1 36/13
37/25 38/24
history [1] 26/15
Homes [1] 5/25
hours [1] 27/4
House [3] 6/18 7/19 8/7
how [27] 6/13 6/19 6/19 6/20 7/22 11/11 13/1
13/21 14/2 15/11 18/7 20/20 21/12 25/5 27/6
27/10 27/18 27/19 30/1 30/2 30/3 30/17 31/3
32/8 33/19 35/2 35/14

I
I'll [1] 38/21
I've [5] 25/18 25/24 25/25 39/8 39/19
ID [1] 16/11
idea [1] 24/12
identification [2] 12/14 17/15
impact [1] 13/25
impersonator [2] 10/6 24/5
important [1] 22/8
includes [1] 24/3
including [1] 34/5
increase [1] 15/12
incur [1] 21/19
indictment [2] 22/25 23/17
individual [1] 19/5
influence [3] 30/5 30/9 30/16
informed [2] 32/11 32/13
inside [2] 11/20 11/23
interest [5] 10/14 10/15 19/19 26/1 37/16
interested [4] 14/15 26/9 28/12 34/24
intoxicated [1] 27/3
introduce [1] 14/22
introduced [1] 10/12
introduction [2] 12/19 33/20
INVESTIGATING [1] 1/6
involved [1] 7/4
is [76]
issue [4] 12/13 16/18 16/22 28/7
issues [6] 12/7 12/12 13/19 22/4 22/7 22/13
it [69]

J
Jackson [2] 10/6 24/5
Jewel [3] 18/15 18/23 19/5
job [5] 5/15 18/4 18/18 18/21 34/25
jobs [6] 6/4 6/6 17/7 18/23 26/17 28/9
Johnson [1] 5/25
judge [6] 4/9 24/14 24/16 24/19 24/22 25/1
JUDICIAL [1] 1/2
jurors [2] 29/19 37/4
jury [17] 1/7 1/12 4/9 5/14 22/19 22/24 26/20
29/24 31/21 32/2 33/7 33/13 35/21 38/1
38/25 40/11 40/14
just [24] 8/4 16/2 18/23 20/8 20/10 21/7
21/18 21/22 23/2 23/3 25/19 25/20 26/2
26/22 26/23 26/25 27/23 30/12 33/1 33/19
33/21 36/20 36/24 38/15

K
keep [2] 6/2 18/1
keeps [1] 30/21
kind [8] 6/4 6/22 11/14 15/15 15/16 21/1
25/24 36/13
kind of [1] 15/15
kinds [1] 6/6

knew [5] 13/9 14/6 18/7 32/24 34/21


know [28] 5/16 12/8 15/9 16/1 16/1 16/13
18/8 18/10 18/20 18/22 18/23 22/8 24/14
24/18 25/12 25/18 25/19 25/21 25/22 27/18
27/19 27/20 28/18 29/9 31/1 31/4 35/7 38/15
knowledge [2] 14/7 35/4
known [2] 30/2 30/3

L
later [1] 6/15
law [1] 20/23
laws [1] 20/22
leader [1] 28/22
leaders [1] 28/21
learn [1] 6/13
least [1] 35/5
led [1] 11/2
legal [1] 4/25
legislation [4] 16/8 16/10 16/24 17/1
legislator [2] 25/18 35/1
Leslie [1] 10/4
Let [2] 5/20 36/17
Let's [2] 16/16 17/15
license [4] 22/2 34/25 35/3 35/4
life [3] 6/9 6/14 7/3
like [6] 6/22 6/23 11/9 11/15 26/2 27/4
line [2] 32/4 37/3
lines [1] 32/3
liquor [12] 12/13 16/12 16/21 17/2 26/7
26/12 26/16 27/7 28/25 34/25 35/2 35/4
listened [1] 15/15
little [6] 14/3 16/17 20/15 21/8 33/25 36/17
lived [1] 5/25
living [1] 21/8
lobbing [1] 22/2
lobbying [2] 31/6 35/12
lobbyist [12] 10/13 12/10 13/18 22/1 30/16
30/18 38/6 38/7 38/10 38/17 39/6 40/2
lobbyists [9] 30/20 37/5 37/7 37/10 37/14
39/8 39/14 39/20 40/1
Local [1] 28/13
located [1] 8/11
lodged [1] 22/20
long [6] 13/4 13/5 18/7 30/1 30/3 32/12
look [1] 6/22
looked [1] 11/9
loss [2] 27/13 28/9
lost [1] 6/9
lot [3] 21/13 26/24 35/9
lots [1] 35/18
Louise [1] 29/8

M
Madam [1] 40/7
made [17] 6/7 11/11 13/17 22/11 22/15 25/12
25/19 33/20 36/4 36/13 39/11 39/15 39/18
39/20 39/21 39/23 40/3
mail [1] 40/14
make [1] 15/12
manpower [1] 6/12
many [2] 7/22 27/25
Marcellus [3] 12/13 16/13 16/18
MARK [1] 2/11
marked [1] 3/6
matter [2] 13/10 18/11
may [3] 5/1 7/24 37/19
maybe [6] 10/2 20/24 26/19 28/12 34/4 35/1
McGirth [2] 10/5 24/5
me [27] 5/1 5/20 10/25 14/8 18/7 18/18 27/18
30/17 32/11 32/13 32/14 32/14 32/19 32/23
32/23 34/20 34/20 35/3 35/6 35/16 36/12
36/17 38/16 39/14 39/22 40/3 41/5
mean [3] 30/12 36/9 36/22

M
means [2] 40/11 41/21
meet [10] 14/18 30/2 31/9 32/8 32/13 32/14
32/22 34/16 34/20 35/6
meeting [15] 10/18 12/18 13/13 14/16 14/20
14/21 15/4 15/6 15/23 16/2 21/16 21/17
32/21 32/23 35/8
meetings [2] 22/5 25/23
member [1] 8/7
members [3] 5/14 32/2 35/21
men [1] 7/9
mentioned [2] 32/18 35/24
met [8] 9/13 10/9 10/10 21/25 34/10 34/13
34/16 34/21
Michael [2] 10/6 24/5
might [2] 35/10 37/17
miles [2] 21/16 21/21
mind [1] 17/12
mine [1] 27/22
MISC [1] 1/9
mistake [2] 25/12 25/20
mobile [1] 39/16
moment [1] 22/21
money [28] 11/10 14/11 16/4 17/23 18/1
18/25 19/4 19/8 29/14 30/6 30/12 30/15
30/16 30/25 35/19 35/23 36/20 36/24 37/7
37/10 37/14 37/19 38/6 38/7 38/10 38/17
39/6 40/2
Monica [3] 32/10 33/20 34/15
Monica's [1] 33/24
more [5] 14/3 15/11 16/17 28/6 36/18
morning [3] 22/19 23/7 26/20
most [1] 6/14
mouth [1] 28/13
moved [2] 5/24 5/25
Mr [31] 5/3 5/7 5/12 9/8 9/12 9/21 13/7
13/14 13/15 13/17 13/21 15/14 15/24 18/17
20/7 21/6 21/22 21/23 30/14 30/17 31/24
31/25 32/7 33/16 33/16 33/19 34/10 35/14
37/21 39/3 39/5
Mr. [40] 4/8 8/24 9/5 9/18 10/4 10/9 10/9
12/6 12/6 12/19 12/24 13/1 13/23 14/20
14/22 14/22 14/24 15/20 16/3 16/4 16/7
17/20 18/3 20/11 25/3 25/8 26/5 28/25 29/16
29/18 30/2 32/5 32/8 32/9 33/21 33/24 34/2
34/13 35/7 35/22
Mr. Ali [25] 9/18 10/4 10/9 12/6 12/19 13/23
14/20 14/22 14/24 15/20 16/4 16/7 17/20
18/3 25/8 30/2 32/5 32/8 32/9 33/21 33/24
34/2 34/13 35/7 35/22
Mr. Fenerty [3] 12/24 13/1 14/22
Mr. Perri [1] 29/18
Mr. Tyron [1] 9/5
Mr. Waters [9] 4/8 8/24 10/9 12/6 16/3
20/11 25/3 26/5 29/16
Mr. Young [1] 28/25
Ms [1] 24/5
much [5] 18/22 21/12 27/7 27/10 34/18
multiple [1] 26/11
my [30] 5/8 6/9 6/14 7/1 7/23 11/7 13/2 14/7
17/17 25/10 25/25 26/1 27/1 27/17 27/24
32/9 32/10 32/15 32/18 32/23 34/19 34/23
34/25 34/25 35/4 36/16 39/11 39/22 39/24
40/1
myself [4] 25/14 25/15 25/15 26/3

N
name [2] 18/13 32/18
near [1] 11/20
need [2] 18/18 39/10
needed [2] 15/7 34/19
neighborhood [2] 5/23 7/8

neighborhoods [1] 8/21


neighbors [1] 27/22
net [1] 27/13
never [7] 19/13 26/2 35/3 35/24 35/25 36/1
38/6
new [4] 14/9 14/16 15/9 15/10
newspaper [1] 6/8
next [2] 7/25 35/20
nice [4] 11/6 11/7 11/8 11/8
nine [1] 9/21
no [28] 1/9 3/5 3/6 8/23 16/20 17/17 17/18
17/19 17/20 18/2 19/15 19/18 19/20 19/22
20/6 22/20 22/23 23/9 24/12 24/22 29/4 29/6
29/15 35/13 37/9 37/13 37/20 38/11
nonchalant [1] 15/16
Nonetheless [1] 20/4
Normally [1] 21/14
North [1] 5/24
not [26] 4/25 10/15 13/8 15/12 15/17 16/20
20/4 20/6 20/7 24/13 25/11 25/12 25/17
25/24 26/21 27/3 27/3 27/23 32/16 34/7
34/20 35/13 37/8 38/11 38/20 41/20
NOTARISTEFANO [1] 2/5
notes [1] 41/5
notified [2] 40/10 40/13
now [13] 8/13 12/8 14/14 21/8 21/13 22/8
24/11 25/4 34/22 35/3 36/11 39/5 39/13
number [1] 7/25
numerous [1] 13/14

O
oath [2] 4/14 4/22
obligation [2] 4/21 27/7
obtain [2] 12/14 14/25
obtaining [1] 18/21
obviously [1] 5/16
occur [1] 11/17
occurred [2] 11/20 25/23
off [1] 32/4
office [8] 8/1 10/10 11/24 18/19 19/11 22/6
23/7 32/18
official [2] 39/9 41/16
often [1] 20/20
Okay [4] 28/11 32/21 33/15 37/21
oldest [1] 32/10
once [1] 12/1
one [13] 4/18 7/12 10/3 15/18 16/17 18/12
28/11 28/21 29/13 32/10 36/17 40/11 40/15
only [2] 37/1 39/13
open [1] 27/4
opinion [3] 27/1 27/17 27/24
opportunity [3] 6/15 23/21 25/4
opposed [4] 26/24 27/5 28/2 28/4
option [1] 14/16
organizing [1] 10/5
other [21] 8/20 8/21 15/7 27/20 29/7 29/11
30/20 34/5 35/23 35/25 36/2 36/20 36/24
37/5 37/7 37/10 37/14 37/16 39/13 39/22
39/23
our [1] 7/8
out [9] 5/2 8/11 14/2 27/8 37/17 39/11 39/18
39/21 40/3
outreach [2] 7/7 39/15
outside [3] 6/25 29/18 37/22
outstanding [3] 13/25 14/7 14/9
over [6] 9/4 21/8 21/16 25/14 36/3 39/24
overnight [1] 21/17
owe [1] 27/12
owed [2] 14/1 27/9
own [1] 7/1

P
p.m [3] 31/25 33/17 39/3

PAC [3] 39/11 39/22 39/25


PAGE [1] 3/5
paid [3] 10/6 24/4 24/4
paperboy [1] 6/9
Parking [11] 6/16 6/24 12/15 12/20 13/2
13/22 14/1 14/4 14/12 14/19 14/25
part [2] 36/16 36/17
particular [1] 37/19
particularly [1] 16/15
parties [2] 10/4 15/19
party [4] 10/5 10/7 12/1 12/4
past [5] 26/15 31/2 38/18 39/6 39/9
Pause [1] 33/9
pay [5] 24/2 24/8 27/8 27/8 27/10
payable [4] 39/16 39/21 39/22 39/23
payment [2] 16/5 19/3
payments [12] 9/18 9/21 11/11 11/17 11/23
13/14 13/17 19/13 22/11 22/15 36/3 39/25
pending [3] 16/7 16/10 16/24
PENNSYLVANIA [5] 1/2 1/13 7/19 27/1
27/19
people [9] 7/8 10/21 15/7 27/3 27/16 27/21
35/18 39/17 39/18
per [4] 21/9 21/10 21/12 21/14
percent [2] 27/9 27/12
periodically [1] 20/17
PERRI [6] 2/12 4/7 5/3 29/18 31/25 33/16
person [5] 6/12 7/4 17/12 18/21 25/24
persona [1] 11/2
personal [3] 18/4 37/12 37/18
personally [1] 9/20
Philadelphia [8] 1/13 5/21 6/1 6/16 10/10
11/24 12/20 16/19
Philly [3] 5/25 8/11 8/12
phone [3] 22/6 32/15 40/14
phrase [1] 10/2
picked [1] 15/7
place [2] 6/7 21/20
places [1] 21/21
plead [1] 23/20
PLEAS [1] 1/2
please [3] 6/2 34/1 37/22
politics [1] 6/19
pop [1] 31/8
position [4] 17/16 17/17 26/16 34/25
positive [1] 13/25
possibility [1] 15/8
potential [1] 37/15
POTS [2] 39/16 39/16
preliminary [2] 23/13 23/17
present [3] 2/9 6/18 15/8
presented [3] 23/1 32/17 35/16
pressing [2] 16/19 16/22
Pretty [1] 34/18
previous [1] 7/14
previously [4] 4/8 5/18 17/4 38/6
Prior [1] 13/13
prison [2] 24/20 24/23
privatization [9] 12/12 16/12 16/21 17/2
26/8 26/12 26/16 28/8 29/1
Probably [1] 35/9
procedure [1] 14/10
proceedings [1] 41/4
process [3] 14/9 15/9 15/10
professional [1] 37/12
profits [1] 15/13
program [2] 6/13 7/7
proposal [1] 14/24
proposed [1] 17/1
prosecution [1] 24/9
provide [1] 14/10
put [2] 25/10 28/13

Q
questioning [3] 32/3 32/4 37/3
questions [8] 5/1 5/8 5/13 20/11 26/6 29/20
36/16 38/4
Quorum [1] 4/2

R
raise [1] 39/10
raised [1] 5/21
Raspberries [1] 11/18
RE [1] 1/5
reaction [1] 15/14
real [4] 12/10 12/10 25/25 27/16
really [1] 28/11
reason [2] 15/6 28/2
reasons [3] 26/24 27/4 28/3
receive [1] 20/12
recent [1] 8/22
recently [2] 8/4 8/18
recognizing [1] 26/3
recollection [1] 32/16
record [2] 31/23 39/3
recorded [1] 9/5
recording [1] 9/13
recordings [1] 9/12
recruiting [1] 7/8
reelected [2] 7/22 8/4
referring [1] 18/14
regard [1] 39/14
regret [4] 25/16 25/16 25/17 26/4
regular [1] 27/10
relationship [9] 12/23 13/6 13/8 18/11 21/23
22/13 32/7 33/24 34/15
remember [14] 10/18 12/3 13/21 14/4 15/3
15/5 15/18 16/2 16/3 16/14 18/3 18/22 32/17
35/16
Rep [3] 6/5 7/14 21/3
repair [2] 6/11 6/13
replacement [1] 7/13
report [4] 19/16 19/24 25/11 38/11
reported [6] 19/14 37/8 38/13 38/18 39/7
39/10
reporter [2] 41/16 41/23
reporting [1] 21/1
represent [2] 5/18 8/10
REPRESENTATIVE [15] 1/6 4/6 5/17 5/19
7/5 7/19 18/9 20/13 29/22 31/19 33/5 33/11
37/24 38/23 40/9
Representatives [2] 8/8 29/11
represented [2] 8/15 8/21
representing [1] 26/1
represents [1] 17/10
reproduction [1] 41/20
required [2] 19/23 20/1
requirement [1] 20/21
requirements [1] 21/1
research [2] 31/5 35/11
resources [6] 11/3 36/1 36/4 36/7 36/19
36/22
respect [4] 10/19 22/25 28/25 33/21
responsibilities [1] 4/13
responsibility [2] 23/10 25/9
restaurant [1] 11/18
restitution [1] 24/2
result [3] 7/10 21/19 28/9
return [2] 22/24 23/16
right [37] 4/17 7/20 8/8 9/18 9/22 10/7 10/16
11/21 11/24 12/16 12/21 17/5 17/8 17/13
18/1 19/1 19/6 19/7 19/17 19/24 20/2 20/5
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rights [1] 4/13

ring [1] 28/16


robbed [1] 6/9
rolls [1] 14/2
Ron [2] 4/6 39/24
Room [7] 1/12 29/24 31/21 33/7 33/13 38/1
38/25
run [2] 7/25 7/25
running [1] 34/2

S
safe [1] 7/2
said [21] 7/12 10/13 10/21 14/6 18/23 19/3
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38/11
salary [1] 21/6
same [2] 41/7 41/21
say [7] 7/23 15/25 20/20 25/13 34/9 34/12
36/6
saying [6] 18/22 30/21 30/22 32/24 33/25
38/5
School [1] 14/1
Secretary [1] 40/7
see [3] 10/14 26/25 34/17
seeing [1] 27/25
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segueways [1] 35/20
senior [1] 39/17
sentence [3] 24/12 24/20 24/22
sequences [1] 16/2
series [1] 28/3
serve [3] 27/2 27/3 27/18
serving [1] 8/7
session [1] 21/15
set [1] 12/18
setting [1] 13/13
several [1] 16/25
Shale [3] 12/13 16/13 16/18
share [1] 15/10
she [11] 32/10 32/11 32/12 32/13 32/15 32/19
32/20 32/24 33/25 35/5 35/5
sheriff [7] 18/8 18/8 18/9 18/10 18/13 18/17
18/20
sheriff's [1] 18/19
shoes [1] 11/8
should [7] 20/8 20/11 25/10 25/11 25/12
25/18 40/11
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since [1] 34/11
sit [1] 8/6
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skills [2] 6/14 7/3
so [22] 6/2 7/15 8/1 8/3 9/14 14/13 18/9
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38/19
some [13] 8/13 11/20 12/12 14/8 15/6 22/14
27/22 32/17 34/3 34/6 35/1 35/10 35/18
someone [1] 18/19
something [8] 11/1 15/6 17/11 26/2 26/8 36/5
36/12 37/17
sorry [1] 32/17
Southwest [1] 8/11
speak [3] 5/3 9/15 36/21
special [1] 7/24
specific [2] 5/12 22/15
specifically [2] 31/12 36/18
spend [1] 16/17
sponsor [1] 39/19
staff [1] 15/5
stand [1] 7/9
Staranowicz [1] 41/15

start [4] 5/20 30/5 30/9 32/3


started [2] 30/15 31/10
state [25] 1/6 4/6 5/17 5/19 6/5 6/18 7/5 7/14
8/7 17/10 18/9 20/13 21/2 27/8 27/9 27/11
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37/24 38/23
statement [1] 19/19
states [2] 27/20 28/1
stay [3] 21/17 21/21 27/4
step [2] 29/18 37/22
still [1] 23/2
stop [2] 5/2 5/2
stores [7] 12/13 17/10 26/12 27/7 27/16
27/18 27/23
subpoena [1] 40/10
substantiate [1] 36/13
successor [1] 7/13
suit [2] 11/7 11/8
Supervising [1] 4/9
supervision [1] 41/22
support [3] 27/23 39/14 39/20
Sure [1] 33/3
sworn [1] 4/9
system [1] 27/1

T
table [2] 36/21 36/25
take [7] 25/9 26/25 27/21 30/6 30/16 33/1
36/8
taken [11] 37/7 37/10 37/14 38/6 38/7 38/10
38/12 38/17 39/6 39/8 41/5
taking [5] 21/18 25/17 25/17 29/14 30/12
talk [13] 14/24 17/15 18/20 18/24 22/4 22/7
25/4 27/6 28/24 29/2 29/4 29/8 29/13
talked [15] 10/19 13/24 16/11 16/11 16/12
16/13 17/4 26/7 26/19 30/4 30/8 34/4 35/3
35/5 35/8
talking [4] 13/18 16/14 30/11 32/15
tape [1] 9/14
tapes [1] 31/10
tax [1] 27/7
taxes [1] 27/9
taxi [1] 6/10
teach [1] 7/3
team [3] 7/1 7/2 7/11
teenager [2] 6/6 6/8
tell [18] 4/21 5/1 5/14 5/15 11/5 15/3 17/25
18/13 18/16 20/15 20/16 20/19 20/25 25/22
30/23 35/22 36/6 36/11
telling [2] 8/17 32/20
term [1] 20/24
terms [2] 7/17 24/18
testified [1] 23/3
testify [2] 23/2 24/11
testifying [1] 22/18
testimony [4] 1/5 1/15 40/12 40/19
than [7] 8/20 35/23 35/25 36/2 36/20 36/24
39/23
thank [2] 16/6 40/6
thanking [1] 16/3
Thanks [1] 28/5
that [204]
their [3] 15/11 26/1 27/9
them [20] 5/15 7/3 11/12 12/8 12/9 16/16
16/17 19/14 19/16 19/24 20/2 25/8 25/10
25/11 25/13 29/13 30/23 30/24 30/24 39/21
then [8] 5/4 5/25 6/15 7/3 13/9 21/16 34/11
38/19
there [30] 6/16 6/20 6/23 6/25 7/7 7/11 8/20
9/11 11/1 11/23 13/11 13/12 14/7 15/7 18/21
18/23 21/4 21/4 21/9 22/19 22/23 23/9 24/16
27/15 27/17 27/19 28/3 28/7 37/15 39/18
these [13] 7/17 11/3 13/17 19/13 22/5 22/13

T
these... [7] 25/7 25/9 25/23 27/4 27/16 27/21
35/25
they [20] 7/8 10/22 11/17 20/25 23/16 27/8
27/11 27/12 27/18 27/19 27/21 28/10 29/9
29/19 31/5 34/6 37/16 37/18 39/15 39/20
they've [1] 39/20
thing [1] 32/6
things [5] 9/4 21/23 22/15 30/8 30/11
think [3] 28/6 30/7 30/10
thinking [3] 25/5 25/21 25/23
third [1] 37/3
this [31] 7/9 7/10 8/14 8/25 9/2 14/9 14/9
14/16 15/14 17/4 18/20 21/17 22/19 22/20
22/24 23/7 25/4 25/16 26/2 26/19 30/22 31/2
31/13 34/7 34/8 34/9 34/23 38/20 40/8 41/6
41/20
those [12] 7/12 12/12 16/15 18/22 27/18 30/7
39/11 39/12 39/16 39/22 39/24 39/25
though [4] 4/25 22/19 22/23 23/9
thought [5] 11/7 14/11 27/13 27/14 27/20
three [2] 16/15 32/3
threshold [1] 21/17
through [8] 10/24 10/25 16/16 20/23 32/10
34/22 35/15 40/14
throughout [1] 22/5
time [19] 4/5 12/9 13/2 13/4 13/5 13/11 15/25
16/4 16/17 18/12 25/14 25/15 32/13 34/10
34/16 38/20 39/13 40/8 40/15
times [3] 7/22 8/3 9/15
today [7] 4/22 5/9 5/13 8/6 22/21 24/11 25/6
together [1] 29/3
told [15] 18/18 18/21 18/23 21/25 22/2 22/12
32/22 33/19 34/7 34/8 34/9 34/10 34/21
34/22 34/23
too [1] 21/13
took [4] 4/14 18/25 19/8 19/10
top [2] 21/9 27/24
totaling [1] 9/21
touch [1] 21/22
touched [1] 33/25
trained [1] 25/19
training [7] 6/11 6/12 20/13 20/16 20/17
20/23 20/25
transcript [2] 41/7 41/20
travel [2] 21/16 21/20
trial [2] 1/3 41/5
true [1] 9/24
trust [2] 31/4 35/14
truth [2] 4/22 25/22
try [1] 14/24
trying [4] 12/14 32/13 32/20 32/22
turn [1] 39/24
two [8] 7/17 16/25 20/24 29/11 30/8 30/11
31/17 36/16
two-year [1] 7/17
Tyron [6] 9/5 21/23 29/5 29/14 30/9 31/2

U
Umm [1] 34/12
under [5] 4/22 24/18 36/20 36/24 41/21
underaged [1] 27/2
undergo [1] 20/17
understand [6] 4/12 4/16 4/21 5/5 36/22
40/16
understanding [3] 33/23 34/14 37/1
union [13] 17/7 17/9 17/9 17/12 26/15 26/17
28/7 28/9 28/10 28/11 28/21 28/22 28/23
unions [2] 28/1 28/1
unless [1] 41/21
until [1] 6/17
up [15] 6/2 7/9 12/18 13/13 13/22 14/4 15/7

20/21 21/14 21/19 24/20 24/25 26/14 31/8


34/5
up-to-date [1] 20/21
ups [1] 33/22
us [10] 8/17 11/5 15/3 18/13 18/16 20/15
20/16 20/19 33/19 36/11
use [2] 6/10 18/9
used [2] 7/4 32/16

V
Vanessa [1] 29/8
very [7] 10/23 10/23 10/24 11/6 11/6 11/8
23/20
Vince [4] 12/21 14/14 14/18 15/5
visibly [1] 27/3
voice [1] 6/2
vote [1] 17/20
voter [3] 12/13 16/11 17/15
voting [1] 17/25

W
waive [2] 23/13 23/17
want [10] 5/13 5/14 8/24 21/22 25/3 28/13
30/17 31/1 38/15 38/16
wanted [9] 10/13 10/14 15/10 18/19 22/4
22/12 35/6 35/17 35/19
was [100]
wasn't [2] 13/10 36/16
Waters [30] 4/6 4/8 5/7 5/12 8/24 10/9 12/6
13/21 16/3 20/7 20/11 21/6 21/22 25/3 26/5
29/16 29/23 31/20 31/24 33/6 33/12 33/16
33/19 37/22 37/25 38/24 39/3 39/5 39/24
40/9
way [8] 11/7 11/7 27/14 29/9 32/17 34/3
36/10 36/23
ways [1] 36/10
we [29] 4/1 4/3 4/5 5/13 5/16 7/7 7/25 9/4
16/1 16/16 16/23 17/4 18/10 20/20 20/21
20/23 21/10 21/10 21/20 26/7 26/19 26/25
29/19 31/24 33/1 33/15 35/15 36/3 39/2
wearing [1] 9/13
well [7] 4/6 12/14 17/9 24/4 26/18 27/11
28/10
Wendell [3] 28/18 29/2 29/4
went [6] 6/10 6/11 6/12 34/21 36/3 39/22
were [25] 5/15 5/20 8/4 8/20 9/4 9/11 9/14
11/23 12/7 17/7 17/12 19/23 22/7 22/15 25/5
28/8 28/12 32/15 34/6 34/10 36/1 37/16
37/18 39/23 39/25
West [2] 6/1 8/11
what [54]
when [20] 5/15 9/12 10/9 13/9 13/17 14/4
15/25 20/13 21/10 21/15 21/25 22/11 25/23
27/18 30/1 31/9 34/9 34/13 36/6 36/19
where [9] 5/18 6/8 21/20 26/25 31/7 31/8
37/15 37/19 39/15
Whereupon [6] 29/22 31/19 33/5 33/11
37/24 38/23
whether [4] 10/15 22/5 26/20 37/11
which [7] 7/24 14/11 22/8 24/3 27/25 35/21
36/21
while [1] 15/8
who [15] 7/4 10/5 10/22 12/21 14/14 24/14
27/16 27/22 28/20 29/9 32/11 34/14 35/12
35/18 39/18
why [12] 5/13 20/7 25/4 25/15 26/22 26/24
27/4 28/2 28/3 34/15 35/6 38/20
will [8] 5/2 16/16 18/24 25/16 31/11 32/3
32/6 40/13
Williams [2] 7/5 18/15
willing [3] 5/8 23/2 35/17
wish [3] 20/9 25/20 25/20
within [1] 27/25

words [2] 28/13 37/16


work [7] 6/15 6/25 7/10 27/16 27/16 27/21
27/22
worked [7] 5/18 6/9 6/16 7/6 25/25 25/25
27/1
workers [1] 17/10
working [13] 6/6 6/23 7/4 7/11 10/22 13/2
13/11 13/12 18/8 18/11 22/3 22/13 35/12
would [20] 7/12 8/1 10/15 11/12 12/6 14/10
14/11 15/11 15/12 20/9 22/7 24/16 24/25
26/25 27/6 28/8 30/24 37/2 37/11 37/22

X
XXVII [1] 1/7

Y
Yeadon [3] 8/12 8/13 8/22
year [3] 7/17 7/25 7/25
years [3] 20/24 24/20 31/17
yes [76]
yet [2] 23/9 24/14
you [235]
you're [3] 19/23 20/1 20/1
you've [5] 23/17 23/20 23/25 24/2 24/8
Young [4] 28/18 28/25 29/2 29/4
younger [1] 6/14
your [34] 4/13 4/21 5/15 5/15 6/2 9/5 10/1
10/3 10/5 10/10 10/14 10/15 11/21 11/23
12/4 15/18 17/11 17/16 18/1 19/11 21/6
21/23 22/6 23/13 23/17 24/12 24/19 28/13
29/17 32/7 33/20 34/14 40/10 40/15
yourself [2] 5/14 17/13

T-6 October 22, 2010

Special Agent Claude Thomas, Pennsylvania Office of Attorney


General, Badge number is 118, A Certification #A-1418, todays
date is Friday, October the 22nd, year 2010. The time is 9:28
hundred hours, about to place this device on CI #2010-01 for
consensual intercept with subject Waters and others in reference
to investigation #36-662, device is being activated at this time
and device will be deactivated at a later time today. I will be
deactivating the device. And the device is being placed on TA at
this point, 2010-01.
CT

You dont get much sleep, do you?

TA

Thats for dead people.

CT

The old school saying, sleep when youre dead.

TA

Most people dont understand when you go talking


like this, you got to keep the business going. And do
this business.

CT

Yes you have to function as you normally would. That


is a given. Have to function as you normally would. I
will put it on once this car in front of us (U/I) and that
person leaves. Just believe me when I say you never
know. Definitely dont want to take a chance. Its like
talking to opening you never know whos around.
If you want (U/I), change up the pen. The pen is all we
can change. So if you have one of your (U/I) I am the
brightest ink of all from the republican party, then
you have one of those pens, Ill put that on there as
well.

TA

Alright.

CT

You headed out?


bit.

TA

Okay.

In fact, Ill just follow you a little

1 | Page

T-6 October 22, 2010

CT

So you know where youre going, right?

TA

Yeah. Ah hmm.

CT

Good.

TA

Its 6027 at Ludlow.

CT

Look better than me cuz I dont know.

TA

Alright.

CT

(3:27) Ill follow you.

TA

Yep. See you in a second.


(15:00) See Im fucking turning here.
(U/I).
(35:08) Hey Monica, are you here?
Ok. Im here too.
Im just coming alright.
(38:40) Hey there. Good morning.

UM#1

Whats going on?

TA

(Laughs). (U/I).

UM#1

Yeah.

TA

Uhm the representative. Hes actually expecting me.

UM#1

Is he?

TA

He should be.

UM#1

What time?

TA

Ten.

UM#1

Hold on. Can you wait right here. Cuz were in a staff
meeting.
2 | Page

T-6 October 22, 2010

TA

Ok sure.

UM#1

Good morning.

TA

Good morning.

UM#1

Whats up T? I apologize for that.

TA

How you doing?

UM#1

I apologize (U/I).

TA

Hey thats alright.

UM#1

Asalamualaikum.

TA

Walaikum Salam, brother (U/I).

UF

Right upstairs.

UM#1

No they want him to wait a second.

UF

Ok.

UM#1

(U/I).

UF

Ok. You can have a seat right here (U/I) sir.

UM#1

Have a seat brother.

TA

Thanks man (U/I).

UF

Thank you.

TA

Thank you. Good morning ladies.

UM#1

February, March something like that. Whats up?

TA

At least you got something going? We did open up a


law center, though.
3 | Page

T-6 October 22, 2010

UM#1

I know.

TA

But thats a different story.

UM#1

Yeah yeah I know cuz Ive been by there several times.

TA

Yeah you know what. Sharif Sharif was actually uhm


gonna come over but he took a job at Zarwin Baum so
he may still come over part-time.

UM#1

Did (U/I) though.

TA

No thats Claire Harrison.

UM#1

Ok.

TA

Wolf Block.

UM#1

Gotch ya.

TA

Then both both firms actually.

UM#1

Last time you talk to Mel cuz.

TA

I havent.

UM#1

He said aint talk to you, man.

TA

Steve Steve just left me brother.


mean so it was like.

UM#1

I beg to differ.

TA

And I was like.

UM#1

You know we was tight.

TA

I- I-

4 | Page

You know what I

T-6 October 22, 2010

UM#1

All three of us was tight.

TA

Between me and you I was sort of hurt cuz you see


where Im at.

UM#1

(U/I) Steve.

TA

They got the other boy.


(U/I) look man, Im worth a
couple million dollars. I dont need that crap.

UM#1

(U/I). I know that.

TA

You know what I mean. So Im not Im not its just one


of those things where you signed the check, its your
signature but we use stamps. Which is why now every
check thats signed is right here.

UM#1

Correct.

TA

Right.

UM#1

Right.

TA

Cuz that almost changed my life.

UM#1

Yeah.

TA

We got, we got we got two banks. One in New York


and one out of Florida that Im lobbying for because
they ah they didnt have any choice so they gave me
back my lobbying license. So we are in full swing.
I
got just under ten mill and were looking to do stuff.

UM#1

Alright, you still at the same place?

TA

Oh yeah yeah. Nothings changed.

UM#1

Ok.

TA

You know what I mean.

5 | Page

T-6 October 22, 2010

UM#1

Yep.

TA

Theres a small lapse.

UM#1

Ah hmm.

TA

In time because that had to get straighten out. This


piece.

UM#1

Right.

TA

Because they held me up you know what I mean.

UM#1

(U/I) they get their money.

TA

Uh uh. Who told you that?

UM#1

You dont talk to people

TA

But listen man, I havent seen you.

UM#1

I know.

TA

John look, you know me better than that.


If if
something was really that wrong, I would have just
dealt with it but a lot of things people just talk.

UM#1

Yeah.

TA

They dont know.

UM#1

Yeah.

TA

You know what I mean. They dont know.

UM#1

I was with Steve last week actually. Last, last, when


was it?

TA

I think between me and you, thats my brother.


got scared.

6 | Page

He

T-6 October 22, 2010

UM#1

Yeah.

TA

He got scared. He was like.

UM#1

Rightfully so.

TA

Well not rightfully so.

UM#1

Thats his cousin.

TA

I know. I know. I know. A lot of people. A lot of


people got you know its like this is some kind of
witch hunt cuz we know Ty. He got money. What is,
what is that about? You know what I mean?

UM#1

We know that much (U/I) thats why I was like (U/I).

TA

Dont need to be doing that madness.

UM#1

I havent heard from you. We went past the spot a few


times (U/I).

TA

Ah hmm.

UM#1

(U/I).

TA

Thats nice of him to come look for me man.


should call him up and let me say hi.

UM#1

Yeah.

TA

Hed be in shock cuz I havent seen him.


seen him.

UM#1

You still got his number. He has the same number.


Steve got the same number.

TA

I dont remember it.

UM#1

(U/I).
7 | Page

You

I havent

T-6 October 22, 2010

TA

I dont even remember it. Well last night somebody


was telling me they seen, I forget who it was, that you
know at the end of the day, its it was a mistake.

UM#1

Ah hmm.

TA

They did what they needed to do.

UM#1

Ah hmm.

TA

We got it straightened out.

UM#1

Ok.

TA

You know I was made whole quite some time ago so.

UM#1

Right.

TA

Im just looking to do one thing here because you


know that bar you were talking about.

UM#1

I was going to bring it up, yeah.

TA

Ok so thats where we are because Joe has some other


things going.

UM#1

Oh ok.

TA

Nobody has any money.

UM#1

Right.

TA

Im willing to provide it as long as we can make some


money. You know what I mean.

UM#1

Yeah (U/I).

TA

Yesterday.

UM#1

(U/I) yesterday.
8 | Page

T-6 October 22, 2010

TA

Yesterday ah hmm.

UM#1

You see how its changing.

TA

It but you know what.

UM#1

You see that the faces are changing.


people down there now

TA

The thing the thing thats hard to kind of put together


is where they getting the money from for all the
rehabs? Because nobody is lending? So must be
people using their own money.

UM#1

Thats what it is. See whats happening is a lot of the


drug boys, they flipping over bricks now. Leaving the
other bricks alone and now you know white bricks
now are going to (U/I).

TA

Real estate.

UM#1

Yeah cuz its sweet.

TA

When did you leave the other place?

UM#1

Uh shit. Been here since March. So I left there.

TA

Thats good that he got you a job though.

UM#1

Yeah.

TA

You needed something steady.

UM#1

Yep. Six months out went to Senator Williams for nine


months. Took a chill for six months and came.

TA

Hows hows your son?

UM#1

The twins?

9 | Page

Its all white

T-6 October 22, 2010

TA

Yes.

UM#1

The twins they one has severe autism you remember


that.

TA

Yeah I remember. Yeah.

UM#1

(47:35) Ahm the two now one of them has severe


autism. Both of them have a little you know we just
hoping that (U/I) one of twins is not talking at all yet.
Thats the one with severe autism. But shes getting
SSI for both.

TA

Ah hmm.

UM#1

You know. She actually just got an increase in it. So I


mean you know, were okay financially in terms of
supporting their issues but its just a immensive
stress, like we had them at Pencrest.

TA

Ah hmm.

UM#1

On Broad and Pike.

TA

Yeah I know where it is.

UM#1

And he made it more one on one as opposed to this is


the one with the severe autism so now hes over at
Ellwyn on Henry Avenue and he goes every day and
the bus picks him up and brings him back to
Education Works, the day care center that they go to.

TA

Ah hmm.

UM#1

So I mean hes doing a lot better. Hes ah more


responsive. They had to put a tube in his ears to
increase his hearing. They were saying because he
had multiple ear infections the sound or something
may be distorted but hes been great since he ah he
got that thing put in his ear.

10 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

TA

Diet and exercise is so important.

UM#1

Yeah well they have so much energy at three man.


And ah he has a ver very distinct diet. I mean like
certain things I try to trick him and put it on a fork as
opposed to a spoon. He looks at it and pushes it
away. So I wait you know. Trick him, give him
something that he likes.

TA

Ah hmm.

UM#1

And put on something that he wont eat and he just


push it away. Even with ice cream. You know hes
hes vanilla. So if its not white, he wont put it in his
mouth.
I mean even banana.
Banana anything
strawberry. Hell look, push it right away. Hell push
it to your mouth. You eat it. Vanilla, hell grab your
hand and you know take the spoon from you and eat
it but (U/I).

TA

Children with autism have very different set of they


have a different set of interpretations with things that
we would consider to be normal.

UM#1

Mm hmm.

TA

You know part of that distortion comes from their


ability to not readily interpret things as we should see
them.

UM#1

Right.

TA

You know because theres always some resistance.

UM#1

Ah hmm.

TA

Cuz theyre trying to make up their mind.

UM#1

Right.

TA

You know.
11 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

UM#1

Yeah (U/I).

TA

And sometimes theyre trying to understand what that


really is.

UM#1

Yeah. You can see that in the thinking process when


he looks at it, okay.

TA

Ah hmm.

UM#1

Ah nope that color aint right. (U/I) Im not putting it


in my mouth.

TA

Im glad to see you are doing well though.

UM#1

Hey man Im (U/I) square you.

TA

Yeah.

UM#1

Im still trying to get the bar actually I was talking to


this guy (U/I) cuz you see what happened to Bruce,
right?

TA

No.

UM#1

Oh man.

TA

Hawkins?

UM#1

Huh?

TA

Bruce Hawkisn?

UM#1

No (U/I).

TA

No. What happened to him?

UM#1

(U/I) from the Americas (U/I).

TA

Yeah yeah yeah.


12 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

UM#1

One day I come Fox News and theres Bruce coming


out.

TA

Oh God.

UM#1

Yep. State Police ran up in there and said that shady


things going on with titles and all that stuff. And ah I
hear he is working in a overnight stocker in a
supermarket.

TA

He got jammed up that bad, huh?

UM#1

Yeah.

TA

I tell you something. The the piece that people dont


understand is if you have one person to do something
and they are important to you, your lawyer, your
accountant, have another guy watching that guy.
Thats critical because at the end of the day the truth
comes out. Thats number one. Number two, you
need to have enough money and be patient for that to
happen. Because its a process. But look who Im
talking to. Im preaching to the choir.

UM#1

Right absolutely.

TA

You know the deal.

UM#1

Yeah yeah.

TA

It takes awhile to ah get get things right. I mean for


me it took me thirty days but it was thirty days after
so much fall out.

UM#1

Yeah.

TA

You know what I mean cuz you know I know


everybody and everybody knows me back.

UM#1

Right.
13 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

TA

You know what I mean. But thank God my real friends


didnt desert me.

UM#1

Right

TA

(Laughs).

UM#1

You talk to Mel?

TA

I have not. I have not. I havent. After that situation


with Stace man. I have not seen at all. Have you seen
Stace?

UM#1

No I didnt think he was still in the country (U/I).

TA

They said he was down in Florida. I sent Steve had


asked me to sent him to give him money to buy his
ticket. You know I like Stace man so I gave it to him
but I dont know what happened.

UM#1

So Stace didnt run with ahm whatchamacalls money?

TA

Whos money?

UM#1

(U/I).

TA

Come on man.

UM#1

(U/I).

TA

You believe that?

UM#1

Hey man, I dont know what to believe.

TA

You know.

UM#1

(U/I) Mel using him as a scapegoat.

TA

Who knows.
ODAT has got so many problems.
Theyve had some problems for the past five years.
14 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

You know.
UM#1

Really?
I know he had some tax problems (U/I)
brother went to his place and hes been down there
(U/I) somebody needs to talk to you man. Are we over
yet? No.

TA

Do you see how life is? You see how life is?

UM#1

(U/I).

TA

Whats going on brother?

UM#1

(U/I).

TA

(On the phone).


Its Tyron Steve.
(Laughs).
Not yea man.
You alright?
Yeah.
You alright?
You alright?
Alright man.
I just want you to know that everything has been cool
for quite some time. I just dont have that phone
anymore. Probably. Hows that probably. Thats real
good. No because well you know how it went. You
know what I mean. Thank God we were able to get it
straightened out.
And I and I did get back my
lobbying license. You know so. Yeah. Yep. So we got
it under control. Anyway brother, its good talking to
you. Alright. Ill see you. Bye-bye. Here you go
brother (hands phone back).

UM#1

Are you serious?

TA

Good morning. Good morning.

UF

Good morning.
15 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

(Background conversation).
TA

(59:21) Sure.
that.

Only a few people make me wait like

UF

(U/I).

TA

How are you?

UF

(U/I) finishing up with a meeting upstairs.

TA

Oh ok.

UF

With Brian.

TA

Is he ready now?

UF

(U/I).

TA

Ok. Oh my. Anything you give me for free John you


know I will take it.

UF

Cutting out all my carbohydrates, sweets, then Ill do


the (U/I). I usually get a good work out at Bally (U/I).

TA

Thanks. Low hello. Its been too long.

RW

Yeah.

TA

How are you sir?

RW

I know who this brother is.

TA

How are you doing sir? Oh I said man they send my


seat, Ill get completely grey and old.

RW

Oh no.

TA

Howve you been?

RW

Im fine. How ya doing?


16 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

TA

See what happens.

RW

Yeah.

TA

Everything is cool now.

RW

Yeah.

TA

They gave me back my.

RW

(U/I).

TA

Yeah.
Everybody in the day care business know
everybody else.

RW

Yeah thats true. Thats true.

TA

How are you doing?

RW

Thats true.

TA

I see you got Ya-Ya down there.

RW

Yeah yeah. he works for (U/I). Hes been here almost


a year now. He started like February. Yeah.

TA

He needed something steady.

RW

(U/I) helping people out. Can only, makes you feel


good about yourself. You got something to give.

TA

(Laughs).

RW

Thats what we do here.

TA

(1:01:58) You know most of the things that are going


on now see they are looking at some redistricting
again.

RW

Oh yeah. Every ten years.


17 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

TA

So it will be interesting to see how some of the


development projects kind of get waited around
because what they assume will be correct for the last
three or four years, once that redistricting takes
place, its not going to be the same people that youre
dealing with anymore.

RW

No. Well pick up new people. Were going to pick up


a lot of new youll some of the people but youll get
a lot of new people. Depending on where I go, I know
for me because they tore down the housing
developments over in South Philadelphia, that I lost a
lot of people in that so I got to make that up when
they do the redistricting. I mean I dont get them
back once they build but they werent there for
statistics statistics when that was done. So now I got
this ahm loss population that I will get back but and
thats probably I dont know how many thousands of
people and then when they put, do the development
back up again, if I still got the same area. Im gonna
get all these new people but they wont be counted in
my numbers for resources. Its deep the way they
have it.

TA

Part of the part of the fundamental flaw beyond what


you just talked about is being able to compensate for
some of those resources that youre going to lose.

RW

Yeah.

TA

[1:03:35] Right now Im lobbying for some financial


services businesses. Two of them are banks.

RW

Ok.

TA

So weve got a couple of projects in the works. One in


North Philadelphia and the one right where you are.

RW

Ok.

18 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

TA

Um, its sizable because its over five hundred


thousand dollars.

RW

Ok.

TA

Um, I dont know yet what their set asides gonna be.
Im coming to talk to you first because you know how
it is. I dont want you to hear about it from anybody
else but me. Cause Im the guy thats taken the lead
on this. The total investment might be like two
million dollars.

RW

Ok.

TA

You know? So I said let me just come over, say hi,


cause I havent seen you in a year and a half, you
know?

RW

Has it been that long? It cant be that long.

TA

Its, its been that long.

RW

It has? Wow.

TA

Its been that long. I just talked to Steve actually.

RW

Ok.

TA

And I havent talked to Steve in a year and a half.

RW

Ok.

TA

Cause after that little piece I had to get back together,


you know, and the fact whos lobbying for you now?
Anybody?

RW

Lobbying, what do you mean lobbying? In what way?

TA

For anything thats legislative.


Do you
somebody looking at it before it actually

19 | P a g e

have

T-6 October 22, 2010

RW

Goes

TA

Goes up?

RW

Well we got departments in the House.


Now it
depends on what the legislation is. Ill send it to
whoever, um, who probably have expert knowledge of
this particular area. So its no one particular person
thats an expert on all the stuff that I do.

TA

Well no there, there some there, there are two


senators that Im thinking about now. Nothing will go
through until they, they talk to me because part of
what were doing is looking to see how the scope of
these projects are going to affect whats taking place
there now and because its all banking and financial
services, everybody knows thats what I do. You
know, so maybe we can have that conversation later
on.

RW

Okay.

TA

But I just want to come pass, say hi, see whether or


not, you know, we could talk about this because this
is going to be good. Um, most of the time we dont
have a lot of say. This time because Im in charge of
the project, I have all the say.

RW

Okay, okay, that helps.

TA

Well you kow the the see what Nutter did with the one
set of folks? Theres going to be a lawsuit against the
city. This lady came through. She wants to set up
three ahm grocery stores that are sizable. About the
same size of Shop Rite. Shes got three letters of
credit. One for ten million, one for seventeen million,
one for like nine or another ten million. The city gave
the land to John Westrom over there in Brewerytown.
And now the fights going to be she wants her land
back or their going to have to compensate her. So I
dont know how these folks in council are going to get
20 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

that done because that seems next to impossible and


beyond that.
RW

Whats impossible, to give her land back to her?

TA

Yep.

RW

What if they use (U/I) eminent domain or what?

TA

They might have to. I think one one of the ahm one
situation is down in Brewerytown where John is.

RW

Right.

TA

The other situation is up in Germantown piece of


which Donna Reed Miller controls.

RW

Ok.

TA

So at some point, Im going to be getting involved


with that. You know and and Im not trying to push
anybody but were not going to ah let that happen
because at the end of the day, what is this about? Its
about jobs, its about growth and its about taxable
income. You know and and as far as Im concerned,
those three tenants make up a rising economy. And
for now, I mean, even in the other businesses like Im
dealing with, everybodys got a problem and and for
the most part, they cant find the right work force and
they cant find capital. I cant help them with the
work force but I can help them with the capital. So
being able to invest in small projects even something
that you might now of, that lets say that the person.
Do you remember the Hilal Bilal. Do you remember
that I was involved with that whole set up? Lets say
that the project is I dont know, two hundred grand.
They go to the bank. The FICO score is 680. Theyre
not gonna get financing. With us, they might. Were
looking for the right business plan, the right
managerial team, and the ability for those folks not to
just revenue, but to have a real plan to pay us back
21 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

within a five year period. Those are the things that


will help us help them.
RW

Ok.

TA

You know. Last night I was talking to Rosita. Ahm she


kind of understands where we are. I mean I I dont
Ive been in this for long enough that I dont really
have to prove myself you know. The other piece is
that were able to free up dollars for small businesses
that the banks have no way of doing because all credit
lending at any FDIC insured bank because of the way
their insurances work, they must meet those FICO
requirements. If they cant meet them, they cant lend
the money. Its kind of interesting when you hear the
president say you know were freeing up money or
were giving the money to banks to lend to people.
Well unfortunately the way this really works if the
insurance companies for the banks or the reinsurance
companies for those banks say that youve got to have
a 780 FICO score, you got to be employed for fifteen
years and if you have a wife or a husband, they must
also have similar similar FICO score and they must
have assets as well. Youre not gonna get people
lending. Youre not going to get people lending in
your neighborhood, youre not going to get people
lending in Rositas. Louise maybe. Cuz shes got
another piece where those folks over

RW

(U/I).

TA

(1:09:43) Overbrook Farms and all that.


Their
properties are worth six, seven, eight hundred
thousand dollars without even trying. You know but
for the small mom and pop you know, we ran into a
situation where one of the Dominican guys, he wanted
to open up a grocery store. And he has the building
but he doesnt have the money to purchase stock and
inventory and he doesnt have the money to get all of
the zoning requirements fulfilled. So my thing is you
know he needs thirty grand thats what Im going to
22 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

give him. You know and the interest rate is not going
to be something that is not commensurate with the
state requirements or the banks requirements. Were
going to keep it prime plus one. Because that is a
premium lending rate. Youre not going to get that for
people who have FICO scores of less than 600. It is
impossible. One of the reasons for that again is the
fact that the banks are being held to such a standard.
You know people say well the banks have already paid
off part of the money that was given in terms of the
TARP and part of the stimulus and theyve even paid it
back with interest. The truth of the matter is that
while the economy is dwindling, even though the
banks are another financial institution like AIG, while
they were going belly up, the interest that they are
paying is basically just keeping things on even keel..
Its keeping the status quo. Its not growing the
economy. The growth of the economy comes from
small business and forty or fifty percent of the newer
jobs that are going to be created, number one they are
only temporary, number two, they come with no
benefits and number three, these are unproven
sectors of the economy. Nobody right now has the
technology to create a new economy and thats what
we need. You know so in the meantime, while we are
waiting for that to happen, guys like me and two other
guys, were looking at small projects where we can
actually fund it ourselves or use one of our clients
and have them fund it in tandem with us. We will own
part of the business but the person, if they are willing
to give up a small percentage, I am willing to give
them whatever they need in order to move forward
because I know you know we were even thinking
about a bar you know I was talking to Ya-Ya about that
forever. But then getting the liquor license is one
thing, you got to get through the zoning piece. And
then youve got to be able to say to the leadership
thats in the neighborhood, yes we understand what
we need and heres how we think we can help. Not
everybody is willing to listen to that conversation you
know so Im reaching out to the folks that I know that
23 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

I can actually talk to and beyond that they have the


neighborhood at their best interest. You know the
neighborhood and their best interest. I sound I sound
like so intelligent right?
RW

(U/I). Thats where I am

TA

(1:12:31) At a cellular level. I was telling somebody


that last night. I said you know if its procurement
lobby oh this is the other thing. Let me let me begin
this piece by saying this. The money for non-profits
its flowed pretty well in the past six or seven years.
When the change of leadership occurs because it will,
and thats either way it goes, its gonna change. Ive
got one client that will provide grant money
specifically to minority owned businesses that are
non-profits.

RW

Ok.

TA

If theyre not, we dont want to talk to them.

RW

Ok.

TA

You know ahm.

RW

This is like not grants, this is going to be like loans?

TA

No its its its what we call a PPP. Its a public private


partnership.

RW

Ok.

TA

We will get the grant dollars right from here. We will


partner them with our bank or a bank that is one of
our clients. And well have the ability to actually form
a true partnership. And like I said, Im willing because
I understand I have the conversation with somebody
at Temples SBDC Center I understand that people
cant afford to pay much more than prime plus one.
For the first, I would I I dont have anything on paper
24 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

yet, but I would dare to say that for the first twenty
four months, my relationship, I feel is so good with
our client that they will actually allow for prime plus
one for twenty four months. You cant beat that. Cuz
youre gonna get some kind of loan modifications
after twelve months with anybody you go to right
now.
Especially on foreclosures.
How are the
foreclosures situation in your neighborhood?
RW

Well its funny that you would ask that ahm just
yesterday I was talking to with a friend of mine whos
in real estate. He was talking about the problem hes
having.
I know they were suppose to have a
foreclosure protest yesterday down at City Hall.

TA

Ah ha.

RW

With John Dobbs.

TA

Ah ha.

RW

And (U/I). So Im looking at maybe having some


resource information (knock on door). Whats up?

UM

Excuse me bro, I need to speak to you for a second.

RW

Ok. Im looking at doing

UM

(U/I) important call.

RW

- some outreach to find out At (U/I) what is what is


the foreclosure powers in the neighborhood and.

TA

No problem. We can help you with that.

RW

Yeah. I want to be able to help people, you know. I


havent gotten a lot of complaints about it. As many
as I think I should be getting but.

TA

Because they might not know.

25 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

RW

They may not know.

TA

They may not know.


Thanks for setting up the
meeting. That was very nice of you. That was mighty
white of you.

UF

(U/I).

TA

Wow. Now thats a good slogan.


incarceration.

UF

Ah hmm.

TA

Thats a good slogan.

UF

(U/I) project. Thats one of the projects they working


for. Remember I told you (U/I) non-profit.

TA

Oh I cant really see it from here.

UF

(U/I) I know that ahm (U/I) they working straight with


Graterford.

TA

With the lifers?

UF

Ah hmm.

TA

I was involved with that. I was actually on the


advisory board for parole and probation for the state.

UF

Yale over jail (U/I) ahm quotes (U/I).

TA

Really?

UF

Yeah that they want the kids to say Yale over jail,
Penn State over.

TA

Thats a perfect opportunity to get the colleges


involved.
Just speaking to your point about
foreclosures ahm in your neighborhood because you
have transient residents you know they may be living
26 | P a g e

Education over

T-6 October 22, 2010

with mom or the grandmother and they go back to the


house and the next thing you know three or four
months down the road, they are up for sheriffs sale.
The moratorium that was passed for for this
mediation for this forced mediation between the
lender and the homeowner ah ultimately will expire.
And so what you are going to see even though there is
sort of a alull in terms of the foreclosures now, you
are going to see a spike again I mean do do you have
any conversations with anybody from PFHA?
RW

Uh uh.

TA

Ok. The folks at PFHA because of this situation with


PHA theyve got some real concerns because while
they money was being lent to provide first time home
buyers with grant money as well as initial payment
money, some of those properties will wind up in an
upside down mortgage situation. Where the person
you know they bought the house the house for lets
say eighty thousand dollars, theyve got a two year
fixed and after those two years are over, theyre gonna
see a spike in their interest maybe four or five percent
which doesnt sound very significant except when
those properties are re-assessed the taxes are going to
be much higher included in that because you are
taking a risk on the homeowner, you have forced
mortgage insurance which is called PMI and in
addition to that youre gonna have the new interest
rate for the old mortgage. So in other words, its I
dont you cant call it a property tax increase because
its not a tax right? But it is a cost of living increase.

RW

(U/I).

TA

Yes.

RW

Still has the same effect.

TA

Yes call it by another name but it has the same effect.

27 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

RW

Same effect, right.

TA

(1:18:30) So so those things are important. The other


thing is if youre part-time in terms of your
employment and you were full-time when you got the
mortgage, what happens next is that the scalpers will
come in, they will offer the folks a much more
discounted price, its typically twenty or thirty
percent below fair market value and suddenly what
these folks are sitting on is a gold mine you know.
Shirley was having all these mortgage foreclosure ah
seminars. Those things dont work. What you need is
a real solution to a real problem.
Part of the real
problem is that people do not take the time to read
their mortgage contracts. The other piece of that is
even if they could read it, they dont understand it
right?

RW

Right.

TA

So being able to get the legal ease out of the mortgage


contact is critical right? The other piece for that is to
ensure that if someone is just receiving partial
unemployment benefits or if theyre only employed
part-time, to work with the lender to be able to down
size that mortgage by doing one of two things. You
can put the amount of money that someone owes now
you can put that into whats called a forbearance
agreement. And they can actually add that in on the
back of the mortgage.
That is one of the most
effective ways to rescue someone from being
homeless. and at the end of the day, you know what
in my opinion, and I could be wrong, but at the end of
the day, fighting homelessness is what this is this is
what it comes down to. It comes down in my mind to
fighting homelessness. In addition to being able to do
ah a forbearance agreement, you can also have the
person enter into a payment arrangement that allows
them to pay one, one and a half, one and a quarter,
one and a third are the payments that theyre behind
now which allows them to catch up. And if thats not
28 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

possible, you can allow the person to refinance their


property bearing.
RW

Well how, how do we get the people in to maybe


discuss you know especially people who are in
jeopardy of losing their homes. And then you got
these other issues. Now some of that stuff sounds
like its legislative.

TA

Some of it is. Thats why Im talking to you.

RW

Right. Sounds legislative in terms I mean I think that


if there are problems with understanding your
mortgage arrangement or agreement that they maybe
need it simplified.

TA

Yes.

RW

Ok.

TA

Yes.

RW

And I think in other cases were doing it with


something (U/I) but there is no reason why stuff
should be so complicated that you must have some
other expert read it to you or interpret it for you.

TA

And even if they lets lets say you know typically in


order to get that passed you need a study. Well
whoever puts up the cash for the study, whosever
sponsoring it may inject into that study a biased
opinion so its very important that whoever is is
looking at the creation of that feasibility study, that
they be non-connected. So that there is no bias.

RW

Yeah well that can happen.

TA

But its difficult. It is difficult because when you look


at the American Tax Petroleum Institute or I think its
API, the American Petroleum Institute, most of your
legislators get money out of this group. Right. So its
29 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

difficult and Im using Im picking on them for a


second but there are also folks who get money from
the American Bankers Association. So it would be
difficult for them to appoint a legislator to take over
this task. And even if you went to the committee,
maybe the legislatures who are on that committee
may also be getting money at the same time.
Everybody is feeding from the same trough. That is
why, in my opinion, and I brought this Im gonna
probably have someone bring this to the floor before
session is out which is simply to look at utilizing
specific non-profit groups that truly have no interest
no interest financial or otherwise except to say that
they would like to fight homelessness.
RW

Right.

TA

You know.

RW

But we got I mean the legislature can do that and but


we do have different governmental agencies that are
ahm authorized and given the jurisdiction to do
studies. I mean some of the some stuff we come up
with, we make a resolution to whatever that
department or agency is to conduct a study on this
particular issue and then they will take it and theyll
come back with their findings and you know.

TA

We dont want what happened to the DROP program


happen here. Because they had to get a study done
and then they needed a study to see if that study was
viable.

RW

(U/I).

TA

(Laughs).

RW

(U/I) the mayor had his study (U/I) the mayor (U/I).

TA

Did you hear about this?

30 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

RW

(U/I). The mayor was) going fix the one to do the


study.

TA

Right.

RW

To bring the results he wanted (U/I).

TA

(1:23:58) Right right right.

RW

(U/I) so said were going to do our study.

TA

Right.

RW

So you know what I mean. So I mean and youre right.


It has to be unbiased because all right now, Im just
sayin, all were trying to do is figure out how do we
simplify and uncomplicated some of the agreements
because some people and, really right now with house
on the water is because they entered into this when
they deregulation where they were getting people
these properties that the knew that these people
couldnt afford but they didnt even care. It was like
unload these properties and now people are you know
you know owe more than the propertys worth but
thats another reason why maybe because they didnt
understand what they were (U/I) and maybe if it was
simplified easier to read, thats just why something
like this would be helpful to preventing this mass
underwater crisis that we have going on in our county
right now. So that right there is is is the good reason
for doing it.

TA

(1:24:58) Well Ill tell ya. I think youre absolutely


right. The fact that one of the lenders is willing to
take a look, take a step back, maybe they cant do
anything, let the foreclosure crisis because remember
now, the people who originate, the bank who
originates the loan, sells the loan in a package.

RW

Yeah.

31 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

TA

The packaging has nothing to do with the servicing


organization so the folks that Im working for even
though they may not be able to help ahm create a
better financial situation for the house, for the home,
what they are willing to do is say hey look, well help
them start a business so that they can pay for that
home or help them get or, you know get involved with
some community projects so that we can help out.
You know and as ah as soon as I heard it, I said I know
Ron probably probably going crazy with all this stuff.

RW

No I havent heard, I havent gotten much of a kick


from this ah for doing this foreclosure stuff. Thats
my district. I understand it because I have some part

TA

Leannas gotten a lot of kick.

RW

Has she? Well I guess people are running up there.

TA

Ah hmm.

RW

My people are are rather renters and they wouldnt be


concerned expect for if the landlord is going to lose
the property and that happens in some cases too. The
the renter is the victim of the effect the landlord is
underwater and the property now you know he cant
afford to keep it. And then what does that mean for
their homes? You know thats (U/I) I have a lot of
Section 8 and I have a lot of just renters that that
really make up a great deal of transient population
(U/I).

TA

Ah hmm.

RW

But when I go out to Yeadon a lot of those folks out


there, but not all of them cuz they started accepting
Section 8 up there too. And Section 8 is really what
allows so many people to be able to go to these
suburban communities right now.

32 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

TA

The the piece that I think that a lot of the lenders were
were not looking at is that while you provide someone
with the initial capital, the initial down payment to
acquire that house, if you are not educated enough to
be relevant in todays work force, youre going to lose
that house -

RW

True.

TA

- anyway.

RW

Anyway.

TA

So so the next piece is about being educationally


relevant and that is also a difficult thing. Ahm so one
of the proposals that I will probably be putting
together in the next probably week or so is a simple
one pager that talks about what kind of jobs are going
to be available where the jobs can where you can for
them at the community college or one of the institutes
and then there is one other thing that I am looking at
and its this. The state of Pennsylvania has two
hundred fifty two million dollars thats out there. Ok.
Property taxes, different different types of monies
that are owed to the state. Ah I winded up creating a
program for a collection agency.
Now I put two
hundred something thousand dollars of my own
money behind it. The place is is ready to go. Ahm
unfortunately its not in your district cuz we be
having a different conversation but we will be looking
at ways to develop that work force and then possibly
create another project in a different part of the city
because you can always have your main headquarters
one place and then have smaller satellite offices
where you only hire between two and five people. A
receptionist, and four servicing agents or four
collectors and that by itself will generate a couple
hundred thousand dollars a year.

RW

(1:28:47) Ah ha.

33 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

TA

You know. Its just putting people back to work. This


is this is not rocket science you know. In some cases
it might be.

RW

(U/I) Greedy man. A lot of those people who ran into


got these problems because of greed. They were
going after stuff because it sound good and they
didnt Three forty six to change flight. Why does it
cost so much money to change of flight?

UF

(U/I).

RW

(U/I).

UF

It use to be seventy five dollars.

RW

It use to be a hundred.

UF

I remember when it was 75.

TA

A hundred.

RW

I used to, I paid a hundred

TA

Hundred.

RW

- immediately. I mean I paid a hundred the same day.


I pay.

UF

Well thats what for you and (U/I) Southwest (U/I).

RW

Southwest this is, is this Southwest?


Southwest.

UF

Yeah, it use to be $75. I was going to change to get


back here.

RW

(U/I) I need to talk to these people alright.

UF

Ok so Ill tell them. (U/I). Im on hold (U/I) hang up


with them right now but thats a lot of money.
34 | P a g e

I think this is

T-6 October 22, 2010

RW

That is a lot.

UF

(U/I). Ill tell them to hold.

RW

Yeah let me talk to those people. Schucks. $346 to


Im not going until like a month from now. Its not like
no big problem. Its not the same day.

TA

Well can you just cancel your reservation and then re


re re ah.

RW

Thats what Im gonna do cuz Im sure if I cancel then,


I mean they cant charge you for canceling. The flight
is not until November 18th so they cant charge you. I
know you have so many days to cancel without a fee
so Im just gonna cancel.

TA

Yeah that that sounds like the better deal.

RW

Yeah so (U/I).

UF

But can you cancel with Southwest? If its Southwest?


I dont know I know online you cant.

RW

You cant cancel online? What do you mean?

UF

They ah its like a (U/I).

RW

I mean with the whole flight wasnt 346. I dont even


think the flight was three hundred forty six dollars.

UF

Right.

RW

(U/I).

UF

(1:30:53) I dont think you can cancel though on


Southwest.
Like they have like good prices and
everything you know the baggage fly free but they
have other stipulations to that lock you in and I think
once you buy your ticket you kind of locked in with
35 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

them, you can exchange but I think it is more so


TA

Just cancel.

UF

If you cancel you might not get his money back.

TA

What.

UF

Thats what Im saying. Youre kind of locked in with


Southwest.

RW

Yeah but now they

UF

Its like a (U/I).

TA

Dont fly Southwest anymore.

RW

We did it with them.

UF

Unless you had insurance.


thats different.

RW

Im sure I had insurance.

UF

Ok, that might be different.


see.

RW

Call and find out.

UF

I usually just go I.

RW

Three hundred forty six. Its like the Michael Nutter


soda tax. You know. I bought a bottle a two liter
bottle of soda at PathMark, the one in Upper Darby. It
was seventy nine cents for a pepsi right. Now Im
looking at the two cents on the ounce soda tax would
have been sixty four ounces that would have been one
hundred twenty eight, that would have been a dollar
and twenty eight cents tax on a seventy nine cent
bottle of soda. So its like well the PathMark on
Monument Road in Greys Ferry you wouldnt go there
36 | P a g e

If you have insurance,

I dont know.

I didnt

T-6 October 22, 2010

to shop now you are forced to go shop in Upper Darby


because, and now that wont help Philadelphia.
UF

No it doesnt.

RW

Why would you pay a dollar and twenty eight cents on


something that only costs seventy nine cents.

UF

I know.

RW

Thats a thats totally a crazy thing. And then have


some places where they got three liter bottles of soda
then what would the tax be. The, like that pop top.

TA

Let me just share this with you. We supported him.


Financially, tremendously. Ok. Upwards of seventy
five grand.

RW

Ok.

TA

Alright cuz I was writing those checks. Heres the


problem. He aint looking out for nobody man.

RW

No.

TA

Look at me now. Nobody.

RW

You know and thats one of the problems with black


these black mayors that we had so far. You know I
look at Maynard Jackson, the Marion Berries, when
they turn people into millionaires, they turn black
people and people of color into millionaires while
they were mayor.
They helped people get their
businesses up and running and provided to be prime
contractors in whatever. There is people who are still
spending the money that they made and still have

TA

In the eighties.

RW

(1:33:41) (U/I).

37 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

TA

Yep.

RW

That that they developed in the eighties while they


were mayor because Maynard Jackson said you aint
building this airport if black people aint involved.
And thats it. Now I dont know who Goode, Street, or
this mayor is helping to become a people of color
millionaires.

TA

I think.

RW

(U/I) strong business people. I dont know.

TA

I I swear to God, Streets having a meltdown. Let me


tell you something ok. One of my boys saw him the
other day. You know that little clown Charles Gibb.

RW

Yeah I know him.

TA

Ok. Smart kid.

RW

Right.

TA

But has no business in politics. Politics is a contact


sport.

RW

Right.

TA

If you cant take a hit, dont get in the ring brother.

RW

Right.

TA

Dont get in the ring. You gotta know what you are
dealing with. I told Sharif I said listen, the first time
he came to me, I said I guarantee you Franks gonna
give it to you eventually man. Just just dont go at the
old man like that. I told Kenyatta when he was
running up against Harris. I said listen man. Thats
my boy. You cant just run up in there like that
because the democrats are going to lose what Harold
had which was the chairman of the Casino Gambling
38 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

Commission. You remember me and you were sitting


down there talking about that.
RW

(U/I) seniority because you want to run.

TA

Because you are selfish.

RW

(U/I).

TA

Because you are selfish. Everybody has to pay.

RW

Right.

TA

I saw Kenyatta last night. I say listen man, just


remember something. What do I do best? I write
checks, right? Your job is to make sure you can
govern and stop being up Williams ass like that. And
he just looked at me and I told him I said you are a
state rep. Go and take off that Michael Jackson outfit
you got on. You know. Bring yourself into a place
where you look responsible, you act responsibly, and
people see you as a vital source of critical
information. You know anybody can get stuff on the
news. They can find anything in the newspaper but
be able to have that Socratic method always at your
fingertips. Always question the why, the when, the
how so that your constituents can benefit from your
leadership. I know thats that might be a nuance to
you but thats what were looking for. This is one of
the reasons why I dont, you know I havent put out
any money probably in about a year because weve
been saving that war chest cuz I know we can put out
a hundred fifty, two hundred thousand dollars for the
election. But but its not gonna help us because we
know where this election is going.

RW

Right.

TA

You know and Sestak showed up late. He showed up


late. Onorato wasnt there (laughs).

39 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

RW

Yeah, hes not (U/I).

TA

No and honestly I think you know folks are gonna


have to get in their head that theyre gonna have to
work with Tom Corbett.
And and part of that
transition is being able to talk to republican lobbyists
like me to help them bridge that gap because whats
important in your neighborhood, housing, education,
the ability to have people be able to afford food, you
know.

RW

Right.

TA

(1:36:49) These are things that are close to Corbett. I


know for a fact the education piece is definitely close
to him. You know there is a little or no difference on
what Onorato says and what Corbett says. The other
piece is I dont see how Corbetts, at least in my
interpretation is, there may be some things that may
have to be chiseled. I dont want to use the word cut.
They have to be chiseled away so that you can make a
fund a little bit larger for some of the programs that
are very important. I dont know how Onoratos going
to be able to increase those amounts of money
without raising taxes. Take for example, when South
Philadelphia, somebody purchases a property for lets
say two hundred fifty thousand dollars and it was ten
years ago, well the assessments have not been up-todate so that persons paying theyre not paying their
fair share down in south Philly cuz Fumo made sure of
that. You know fast forward that mortgage twenty
years, theyre paying taxes on a property that was
assessed for two hundred fifty thousand dollars which
might be you know six percent or five percent or
whatever it is. But the house now is worth eight
hundred, nine hundred thousand dollars.

RW

Right.

TA

Now you got people in North Philadelphia where


theyre calling it Brewerytown and the houses are two
40 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

hundred thousand dollars and these people are paying


a much higher percentage. Thats what you gotta look
at. You cant talk about the numbers because you can
make the numbers do anything you want them to do.
RW

(U/I)

TA

Its its the percentage you have are much better grasp
at whats the reality. You know.

RW

Sure sure. Anybody can play a numbers game (U/I).


Its funny you mention that because when he was like
15 or 16, he kind of like wrapped himself around me
when I first ran and came in and introduced himself
and tried to work with me and it got to a point where
he started to frustrate me a little bit because he
started talking about stuff that he didnt know what
he was talking about. And Sharif was real close. The
next thing I know hes sitting around talking about
you know he wants to run against me. Im like ok
come on

TA

Kenyatta right.

RW

No.

TA

Who?

RW

Charles Gibbs.

TA

Oh God no no no. Dont say that name.

RW

He started saying, he tried to position, (U/I) himself


like (U/I).

TA

Oh no no.

RW

(U/I) captain ever. Thats how he got notoriety.

TA

No.

41 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

RW

He went to law school, he was a law school graduate.

TA

Hes a flunkie man. Thats Sharifs flunkie. Ron look,


you know I consider you a friend. I always have. I
told Frank, I told Michelle. Nobody is going to come
running up against my folks like you cuz I would put
fifty grand up there and I would you know they were
teasing me last week you know you have a lot of rage
in you now. I said no I dont have a lot of rage. Most
of the folks who are leaving office, I have a great deal
of respect for my elders. I always have. I think if you
go to someone and you try to talk to them as opposed
to beating them over the head, especially when they
are not capable of having that fight. The wealth that
people would normally get money from, those wells
have been exhausted. Ok. Kenyatta is lucky that
Williams backed him up.

RW

Right.

TA

(1:39:56) You know and and Williams is lucky to have


Hughes. I mean, I remember when that situation I was
down at the Vault in town when that situation with
Curtis happened and I went over there to talk to
Curtis. I said listen, if you need to send me five
hundred dollars cuz theyre getting ready to fine ya,
as a matter of fact, Vance was representing Curtis at
that time so we had that conversation. then I went
over to City Hall and you have people that work with
the legislatures in their office but they think that they
are in charge of these peoples offices. And I think
when Sharif was over at Shirleys place, he was busy
cutting deals.

RW

Yeah thats why she got rid of him.

TA

She was paying, he was trying to pay off some of his


Daddys debts using her office. Now.

RW

Yup. Exactly.

42 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

TA

Thats not right.

RW

Right.

TA

Then she had Earl Matthews in there. Thats another


flunkie of his.

RW

Right.

TA

You know, I told (U/I), when was it? Two, three


months ago. I said listen man, I understand youre in
a bad spot. Your uncle aint here. They stuck you
with this. Im telling you Sam Katz is getting ready to
make a move. You know, we already sat down, talked
about it with the folks that are close to him. At some
point, Nutters going to be in a place where he is very
uncomfortable because the folks up on the main line,
the folks down town, theyre going to support one of
their own. Theyre not theyre not going to support
anybody else.

RW

[1:41:21] Well its only because they supported him


the first time that he got elected, but now I think he
lost it, I dont think he can depend on their vote.

TA

Well, are you running, is anybody running against


you?

RW

Mm hmm.

TA

Alright. Do you have what you need?

RW

Im no, not really. I, I got stuff I always need, one of


the things that I always need

TA

Well here. This is for you, okay? Thats a grand.

RW

Okay, my man. One of the things that I always need

TA

I love you like a brother man.

43 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

RW

I love you too. One of the things that I always need

TA

Just remember me. Im looking for some support and


guidance because we got, we got two projects. I aint
wanna talk about that shit in front of your daughter
cause I know thats not good. But one of the problems
is Louise. This Will Mega situation, its gotta be
controlled because hes looking to do it again.

RW

Oh, Im sure he is.

TA

Alright. So, look now I got back my lobbying license.


Im able to bring even more money to the pot because
I can get money from Trinidad. You know what I
mean? Aint nobody gonna, how the fuck are they
gonna know?

RW

Right. What we need now

TA

Its so good to see you man.

RW

We need (U/I).

TA

Ill tell you something. I missed, I, I missed you but I


needed to clear this shit up.

RW

Yeah.

TA

Before you know what I mean?

RW

Right.

TA

Start making...

RW

(U/I) you always asked me could you be a part of my

TA

Always.

RW

(U/I).

44 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

TA

On the campaign.

RW

Can you be my campaign manager? Anytime

TA

You remember that?

RW

(U/I).

TA

I was always trying to help.

RW

Well you know what, and I guess for me you know like
I, I caught myself working, um, consistently in a way
where even right now you know after you have a
primary election and you get up to the following day
and the following day passes, you dont have an
opponent. But I hear people say shucks, Im going on
vacation now because you know I aint gotta work for
this stuff for another year.

TA

Aint nobody trying to help me.

RW

But then, but for me my thing is no Im going right, I


work every day like I got an opponent you know and I
run every election like I have an opponent, but Im not
actually going to spend a lot of money like I have an
opponent because money is hard and you cant take it
for granted that you can always raise money. And its
always good to have a war chest.

TA

Always.

RW

Because thats always the deterrent when somebody is


looking for who to run against.

TA

You can always just give them something.

RW

Yeah.

TA

Ill talk to you next time but the other piece when we
were talking about your campaign manager piece and
that was almost two years ago. If you dont have a
45 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

campaign committee formed yet, I would like to


suggest that you consider me as one of those folks
and Ill tell you why. Because I am representing the
bank, nobody can get the money faster.
Thats
number one. Number two, theyre willing to listen to
me in terms of the projects. Um, you know you can
think about that. But I will be up in Harrisburg a lot
more now.
RW

I havent seen you lately.

TA

Well I havent, you know what, it took such a toll on


me number one. It took me like three months to get
myself back together and then we both out Cambria
Legal Center in Shirleys district cause you know
thats where most of my stuff is, its up there. But I
want to do something down here. Why? Because there
is opportunity here.

RW

Lots of it.

TA

Lots of opportunity.

RW

Oh yeah.

TA

How you, how you hire Ya-Ya? I was shocked when I


seen him. I said, hes one of them Men United boys,
you know they looking at him.

RW

Men United Boys? Downstairs?

TA

Ah hmm.

RW

Howd I find him? I met him one day when I was ahm
going out visiting prisons. He was at one of the
prisons out there.

TA

Yeah he was an inmate.

RW

He was an inmate and I didnt even know him then.


But I happened to go to the cells and I always go to
46 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

the cells encouraging the guys to come home and get


be law abiding and dont return back to victimizing
people.
TA

Ah ha.

RW

I do that a lot. As a matter of fact, its one of my


passions and ahm and I been working a great deal on
on criticizing they way that the criminal justice
system currently exists.

TA

Ah ha.

RW

And what weve been doing as lawmakers is we come


up with these crazy laws and it only causes more
people to go to jail but we havent done anything to
increase public safety so thats where Im making a
that comparison. Do you feel any safer? No. Guess
what? We locked a whole lot of people up in the last
ten, twenty years and you still dont feel safe. So Ive
been making a comparison that its a systematic new
way of eliminating people from competition with
you cant compete if they are in jail and now they
cant compete if they got a felony on their record.

TA

Jail is a business.

RW

Jail is a business.

TA

And one of the things you know I was just laughing


with Monica. I use to be on the Advisory Board for
Parole and Probation (laughs).

RW

Really?

TA

Yeah.

RW

Get out of here.

TA

Me, Vince, Fansene

47 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

RW

(U/I) yeah yeah.

TA

Kathy Battle, the whole squad cuz Kathy actually made


me an honorary member for the Guardian Civic
League.

RW

Ok.

TA

And I just got my thirty second degree.

RW

Ok.

TA

You know the other piece was we, Maleek and I, we


had start putting together a program so Tommy was
actually over at his house and we were talking about
raising you know fifteen, twenty thousand dollars to
do one thing and that is to sponsor a GED program for
men and women who have just returned to society
that dont have that. Thats still something Im willing
to look at.

RW

We got to we got to

TA

We could do a pilot program with you.

RW

I would love that.

TA

You know.

RW

We got to figure out how we we engage these people.


We integrate them back into the community ahm when
theyre not feeling locked out and feel as though
theres no hope. And you know, so thats one of the
things because we have been targeting.
We had
targeted for this ahm prison population.

TA

Ah hmm.

RW

And you the state the state was trying to build eight
new prisons. They got enough in a bind to build four
but the goal was to build eight. Thats what they
48 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

wanted to build. I got this directly from DGS. I was


shocked when I heard. I was shocked when I heard
four but a little while ago I heard the goal was to build
eight and Im like whoa. What does that mean. That
means.
TA

Whos the PC on this or who was the proposed PC?

RW

On on the prison

TA

On the prison piece, yeah.

RW

For me or for the state?

TA

The state.

RW

That

TA

Who was the prime contractor?

RW

They got, right now they got ahm whats this guy

TA

Nicoletti?

RW

Not Nicoletti.
stuff like

TA

Well he built the one round there by Shirley.

RW

But yeah but he trying to build one up the street now.

TA

Ok.

RW

I met with him last Thursday.

TA

Cuz I talked to Jim week before last and thats got


them in a pickle because he laid out like seven, eight
hundred thousand dollars to capture a piece of real
estate close to one of my other buildings.

RW

Right, on Lehigh Ave?

Nicoletti is trying to do some other

49 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

TA

Yep yep yep and now they mad right cuz Kathy and
Shirley you know, Kathy and Shirley aint gonna see
eye to eye on the on the size of anything.

RW

Right right.

TA

Kathy tried to put one over on Shirley and you know


that aint happening.

RW

No.

TA

Shirley aint gonna let that happen.

RW

No.

TA

Henry is not gonna let that happen.

RW

Right.

TA

So I told Kathy, I said look the biggest thing you can


do is to go back to her and say Senator look, I
delivered a message in its original content.

RW

Ok.

TA

I didnt modify it as a matter of fact. I was so anxious


to speak with you about it, I didnt carefully consider
the content of the message.

RW

Ok.

TA

Talk to the woman.

RW

Yeah.

TA

You know everybody knows you know I know Shirley


like the back of my hand now.

RW

Right right.

50 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

TA

You know, you got to talk to her because the minute


she thinks youre trying to bully her, that is the wrong
thing to think for her.

RW

(U/I).

TA

No.

RW

Shell come up one side of you and down the other.

TA

Man look, I laugh. I laugh. Ron, I swear to God I got a


headache from laughing David Oh is now over there
by Zarwin Baum right cuz he thinks hes going to be
council. That aint gonna happen. I remember when
when he was running

RW

He ran the last time.

TA

Yeah but see nobody is interested in putting him


anywhere. He will not make peace with Chinese,
thats number one. Him and Glenn Hing (sp) do not
see eye to eye. Him and Jack Kong dont see eye to
eye. Him and Mon Soon Park, the other Korean guy,
they dont see eye to eye. So when you dont see eye
to eye and Im not grouping all Asians together even
though they do look all alike, he dont see eye to eye
with his own folks. Theyre not going to vote for him.

RW

Right.

TA

You know, he might get the people who own who own
the Laundromats, stuff like that the restaurants and
all that but how many people are we talking about ten.

RW

Yeah.

TA

You know what I mean.

RW

And a lot of them only live in Philly.

TA

I took him to go see Shirley. Man she blasted him out


51 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

of that office.
RW

Oh yeah.

TA

And I felt badly because I told him, I said David,


youre gonna need the vote in North Philadelphia to
bring to bring you into a place where you are running
at large. At least I will help you bridge that gap with
the senator here so at least you can have a
conversation that makes sense.

RW

Right.

TA

And his thing was ok, lets go. So we go up there and


what does he start talking about? How great Governor
Ridge is. Oh.

RW

Oh

TA

Oh Lord. Do you know what I mean? That thats not


because Ridge hooked him up with Elaine Chow.
Elaine Chow was his girl when Bush was in office.

RW

Right.

TA

You know what I mean, so you cant say things even if


thats what youre thinking, man. You went to law
school. Relax. You know, so dont dont dont but
you know this is the problem with most lawyers right.
They think theyre the smartest guys in the room, you
know.

RW

They were trained that way.

TA

It actually their ego is trained that way, not


necessarily them cuz Ive seen a few of them try to
make it in the real world. It does not happen. It some
of them like Charles Gibbs for example.

RW

Oh yeah.

52 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

TA

Sharif Street. Perfect example.

RW

(U/I).

TA

(U/I) Matthews. Perfect example. I told Sharif, I said


listen man, this is me and you talking man. We came
up almost together.

RW

Right.

TA

Why dont you cut your hair and then that other fool,
that Tommy St. Hill got running around with him
trying to oust Curtis. You aint gonna oust Curtis.

RW

Yeah, Louise Tynes.

TA

Yeah cut your hair. Look presentable, wear a tie


sometimes. Try, wear a suit that doesnt look like
youre going to Saturday Night Fever. Cmon (laughs).
Isnt it true though?

RW

Yeah.

TA

It is true.

RW

Reeses whole presentation was bad. First of all, he


was wearing a suit that didnt fit him and (U/I).

TA

(U/I) daddys clothes.

RW

(U/I) (laughing)

TA

(U/I) daddys clothes (laughing).

RW

(U/I) trying to present to the public man.

TA

A rebel with no cause.

RW

Yeah.

TA

No cause whatsoever.
53 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

RW

Hes gotta get his act together. You know, so, but that
ego thing was definitely something that was a
problem for him and ahm, I can imagine a problem for
Charles

TA

I sent him a client from Venezuela, Sharif, when he


was over at Wolf Block. Nice looking girl. Thirty-five
but shes loaded right. I said you know what Im
gonna hook you with this just talk to her because they
were involved with those check cashing businesses
right. She walked into his office and because of the
disarray that was there, she didnt even bother
speaking to him.

RW

Really?

TA

Really.

RW

He was with Wolf, what was it Wolf?

TA

He was with Wolfblock at the time.

RW

Yeah he invited me down there to, he was doing the


ah pay day loans.

TA

Yes, there you go.

RW

Yeah.

TA

Check cashing business.

RW

(U/I) yeah, check cashing.

TA

I didnt want to mention it you know, try to have some


level of a of mystery but.

RW

That hurt him when he ran too. Cuz people brought


that up, which hurt Tom Knox too.

TA

Well you know.


54 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

RW

Tom Knox made a lot of money off that (U/I).

TA

Tom Tom and one other guy named Adrian Rubin.


Rubin is a mastermind. He is brilliant. He doesnt
care about anybodys feelings. He is there to do one
thing. Increase his own value. Thats it. And Tom
Knox has enough money. Tom dont care. He said if
Sam dont run, hes going to run again. Whats he
gonna spend this time, twenty million?

RW

He got it. Its amazing how those guys have that kind
of money. I think he went and spent ten million the
last year.

TA

Yeah.

RW

He did.

TA

Well we live around the corner from him so he just


bought a place for seven million and ah the one guy
was saying his his his ah his butler, the little Mexican
boy with the sombrero right. Im in the right (laughs).

RW

(U/I).

TA

Don Carlos. I dont know if hes illegal or not, but he


saw me and he (U/I) came over. I said whats the
matter. He said ah Mr. Knox you know, hes having a
party at the Union League. So well probably go to
that.

RW

Ok.

TA

You know but.

RW

I mean, we have to see, I mean we havent, I dont


know if anybody could beat Nutter right now.
Somebody should be out there. I mean, you cant I
mean what is the problem, the election is only months
away. And they its next May. (U/I) we dont we have
55 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

no clear candidate thats running for mayor. None.


TA

Sid Booker. Let me tell you something. Sid Booker.


Duckie. He, Nutter and Duckie fell out. Nutter and
Sid fell out. So I dont know who is going to vote for
them.

RW

Nutter and Duckie fell out?

TA

Absolutely.

RW

Oh yeah.

TA

They had a bad falling out.

RW

Yeah cuz the mayor, the mayor did something to


offend him. I cant think of what it was.

TA

I forgot now what it is but it was a big deal.

RW

Yeah.

TA

It was a big deal. You cant how you going to upset


Duckie.

RW

Right.

TA

Come on now. Yeah. If it was Bob (U/I), I would


understand that fool. But Duckie, no man, you cant
do that. You know.

RW

(U/I).

TA

How about this young boy Keith trying to run against


Brady and now the talk in the land is that Sulvio is
about to make that run and he might be running at
large but the word around town is that he might
actually be running against Curtis.

RW

Thats what I heard.

56 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

TA

But now I see. I already told Curtis, I said you know


were here for you.

RW

Right.

TA

You know.

RW

Curtis told me that too. That they got Sulvio is


looking. He works for Bob Brady.

TA

Yeah yeah he work down in DC.

RW

Right.

TA

And I told, I said man, listen, were smoking a cigar.


We are over there at Mahogany right. I said what is
the problem. Why are you looking to do this. All
youre going to do is anger and isolate people you
know. I dont see where the logic lies and again.

RW

(U/I) He said something named Keith is running


against Bob. Not Keith

TA

Yeah. You got it. Dr. Keith (U/I).

RW

Yeah.

TA

Hes getting ready to do it again.

RW

Hes gonna do it again.

TA

Hes going to do it again.

RW

Cuz I thought Bob, because Bob has his way of buying


people out. You know. Hell get to you. Hell offer
you something to get out of the race, because he I
dont think he wanted to deal with Keith.

TA

He couldnt.

RW

Keith got this presence about him man.


57 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

TA

Well.

RW

He got a lot of people ready to But he left a lot of


people hanging when he dropped out the race. He left
a lot of people hanging.

TA

Well can I just say this to you.

RW

Uh huh.

TA

Ive known Keith for many years. The way that Keith
developed his following is that he use to throw parties
while he was in medical school. You know I had a
piece of a club up in Torresdale and Keith and I would
see each other all the time at different venues. Thats
how he started getting the vote out. Ahm it was all
young people and they were all over twenty one.

RW

(1:56:46) Yeah right he had a lot of young followers.

TA

The other.

RW

Ready to go to work for him. They dont care nothing


about Bob Brady.

TA

No. And and at the end of the day, you also have one
another gentleman. Elvin Ross was, hes going to be a
problem. He is bright but he has no charisma at all.
But you know some guys theyre just so bright they
dont need charisma.

RW

Whos he going to work for?

TA

I dont know yet but I will I will know in about a week


or so you know. Richie Hoy is running for traffic
court. Marnie is running for traffic court. I I told
Marnie, I said sweetheart, this Shes ahm Donnas
daughter up in Frankford up there. I said up in
Rhawnhurst or wherever it is. I told her, I said look, if
you want to run for traffic court, you should not be
58 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

running for traffic court because you need a job. You


should be running for the position of a traffic court
judge because you would like to make a difference in
the way Philadelphia dispenses justice for people who
have traffic or moving violations.
RW

And

TA

Thats it.

RW

And thats a good reason for running.

TA

You know not because you need a job cuz she just lost
her job.

RW

Thats what the guy.

TA

You know.

RW

- who won the last time. He ran cuz he needed a job.


the one with all the eleven thousand dollar suits.

TA

My boy Willie.

RW

Willie Singletary.

TA

(Laughs). Yeah. Sounds like I know all the bad people,


right Veronica?

RW

Ah hmm.

RW

(U/I) ran for judge and won.

TA

And won.

RW

He won because he got the number one slot.

TA

Ah hmm.

RW

Thats how he won. He automatically.

59 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

TA

Whoever is first.

RW

(U/I).

TA

You got it.

RW

You get votes automatically but he got away with it


because if they would have exposed the fact that he
owed eleven thousand dollars, he had what fifty five
unpaid moving violation tickets and while he was
campaigning, hes riding on his motorcycle. I mean
like they would show him on cameras riding his
motorcycle with his group to go out and campaign
and this guy dont have a drivers license.

TA

(Laughs).

RW

How you going to be a judge.

TA

As wrong as the day is long.

RW

How you gonna find anybody guilty cuz you gonna


find a person who got one ticket guilty they hey how
you gonna find me guilty? Im better than you. How
does he find anybody guilty. But they let theyve
seated him. Because the guy who came in second
place didnt contest it, I think it was Wayne John. I
think Wayne John was next in line and I think.

TA

Karens husband, Wayne?

RW

Yeah.

TA

Ok.

RW

Right, the judges husband.

TA

Hes another fool. (Laughs).

RW

If he wouldve contested it, it mightve made it had to


go to trial to see if this guy was qualified and he
60 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

obviously wasnt. Theres no way that he shouldve


been allowed I dont have no problem with Willie
Singletary
TA

No no no no no.

RW?

(U/I).

TA

Whats out there?

RW

What you dont.

TA

Whats out there?

RW

How you gonna be a judge? How you going to convict


anybody. You got to let everybody go because you
owe eleven thousand dollars.

TA

Hes litmus standard for not what you should not be a


judge.

RW

Exactly. How you gonna be a judge? Thats like a


bank robber who got you know whos been robbing all
these banks. Nobody knew it until after he got to be a
municipal judge or Common Pleas judge that he
robbed a bank. How you gonna sit up there and be a
judge? You know what I mean?

TA

The the other piece with Willie is the fact that were
sure if if hes questioned on that again, hes going to
have some problems.

RW

No (U/I).

TA

And Im gonna tell you something. You see the PUC is


in trouble right now because of that indictment with
John Perzel right? So they got some problems. They
got all these illegal boys driving around in taxi cabs
and all kinds of stuff like that but look at the situation
with the Sheriffs sister-in-law. Thats crazy. She lost
her job.
61 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

RW

Yeah.

TA

You know. Stop fixing tickets.

RW

(U/I).

TA

Yeah you know it.

RW

But she asked for the investigation.

TA

That cost her her job. (Laughs).

RW

She asked for the investigation.

TA

Dont say it like that Ron.

RW

She did. She called up and said I want you to come


investigate my staff and then when they, I say all the
time Ali. When I worked for the parking authority,
people would call up and say that ahm we need yall
to come and enforce whatever the area was right. So
the person calls up. We listen, we listen. Alright.
Well send an officer out there. They call back two
hours later, hey you gave me a ticket. You know what
I mean? I aint mean my car. You know what I mean?
What you mean. You asked for the parking authority,
you get what you ask for. You asked for enforcement,
they not gonna come around and do selective
enforcement. Theyre investigate all the problems
and they write the tickets accordingly. Thats what
Glenn Reese did. She asked for the investigation
thinking that they would not gonna look at
everything. They got, she was, she was the most
prominent person and perpetual person in doing
ticket fixing. And now she moved somewhere. She
was in West Philly, she sold her house. She called me
for a couple nights to help her to get a job. I (U/I).

TA

Could you imagine that.

62 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

RW

Making a hundred thousand dollars. I dont know a


place thats gonna give you that kind of money first of
all. Next you are hot right now. I mean this was right
after she got fired. You all over the papers. Im not
gonna make any phone calls. And you know this is.

TA

Yep.

RW

Why would you even ask me. She lived around the
corner. We grew up together. She lived on 61st and
Samson.
Her father moved with her.
Hes he
remained there until his wife died but I knew her
brothers. We use to work at (U/I) Mercy, and I know
her sister. She stayed there too until the sheriff
moved her out too. What, Mt. Airy they livin now?

TA

Mt. Airy yeah. And the sheriff, hes real sick.

RW

Yeah.

TA

You know and look at this little situation they got


going on with Jewell.

RW

Yeah.

TA

Because Zarwin Baums raising money for him. You


know David Oh is up to that and Norm Zarwin thinks
hes a king maker now since Lenny Claire is no longer
there. But the situation with Jewell, I mean I dont
know man. I really dont know.

RW

(U/I) also running.

TA

Not that boy Untermeyer. Not him again.

RW

Not him again. No. Not Untermeyer.

TA

Cuz he Greg could not get it.

RW

Somebody else mentioned somebody. But he tried to


run against the incumbent Sheriff. I mean you wait
63 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

till theres an open shot.


TA

Yep and then you make your move.

RW

Wait your turn until theres an open spot.

TA

There you go.

RW

You work there already. Thats when you make your


move. Dont try to run against John because nobody
had a problem with John. You know so now Jewell
wants it. He didnt want the appointment. Ahm but
ahm you know he wants to run. I dont know if he
could win or not.

TA

Hes never going to get the vote that can be captured


by Barbara Dailey. Thats number one. Number two.

RW

Thats what Carol wanted to get.

TA

Ah hmm.

RW

Carol, I think Carol Campbell wanted that woman to


get it.

TA

Ah hmm. This what happens when you aint seen


somebody in a year and a half. You just talk about
everything.

RW

Ah hmm. (U/I).

TA

Do not eat the Twix. Do not eat the Twix.

RW

(U/I).

TA

Ok. You on a diet? Ok. Seafood diet. See candy diet.


Ok.

RW

(U/I).

TA

(Laughs). Al Sharpton looks like hes losing a massive


64 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

amount of weight.
RW

Hes lost a lot of weight.

TA

Looks like hes sick.

RW

Yeah.

TA

He looks like hes sick.

RW

(U/I).

TA

I should have come to the damn picnic. I forget when


it was.

RW

(U/I).

TA

Oh my. You and Reverend Al.

RW

(U/I).

RW

Hes got this Barbara Daily. Shes right there.

TA

Shes under. Yeah she was. She was the under sheriff.
But she was his chief of staff.

RW

Right.

TA

That was her official title.

RW

Right.

TA

But heres the other piece that bothers me. If Jewell


makes this run, hes going to open up that office to
scrutiny. Im telling you this from me. You know I
know.

RW

Right.

TA

Im telling you. Hes gonna open up the office to


scrutiny. So whoever is going to run against Jewell
65 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

may get more financial support than Jewell.


should have taken the appointment.

He

RW

Yeah.

TA

You know because you know that office has been long
a target of the city controllers office.

RW

Right.

TA

And you got to pay attention to those things.

RW

Right.

TA

You have to pay attention to those things.

RW

(U/I) make it ah they really want to eliminate it and


just make it appointment by the sheriff. I mean by
the mayor.

TA

Its kind of crazy.

RW

Yeah.

TA

Write your cell phone number down here for me so.


Ill call you on Monday cuz Ill be up in Harrisburg.

RW

Ill be up there Monday. I got a

TA

You going to the thing at the steel workers?

RW

Oh I dont know. I dont normally go to the one before


the general but I might go this time.

TA

Im gonna be up there.

RW

You gonna be there?

TA

State and thanks. I talk to.

RW

Thats the same one.


66 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

TA

Yeah.

RW

Yesterday (U/I) asked if I would go with him.

TA

Yeah well last night I was with his niece. I was with
Ivy cuz she getting ready to be

RW

She running too?

TA

Yeah.

RW

What, at large?

TA

No no no no. Commissioner. Election commissioner


(U/I).

RW

Right.

TA

Now now poor thing. Shes twenty five years old and
is as cute as a button, right? She aint got no clue. No
clued.

RW

(U/I) and, and Sam

TA

I told her last night.

RW

Sam was saying too, he dont know about that.

TA

Yeah.

RW

You cant decide you want to run

TA

Want to run against Marge. Come on now.

RW

Run against Marge. Run against Anthony.

TA

Anthony.

RW

And its going to be, she cant run against a republican


so it gonna be one of them two. Anthony Clark or
67 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

Marge.
TA

Well if she puts Anthonys bad habits out there, shes


got a chance.

RW

(U/I).

TA

You know what I mean.

RW

I know Anthony very well.

TA

You know hes got a couple bad habits.

RW

Sure. Everybody does.

TA

Ok.

RW

You know Anthony.

TA

Yeah right so if she.

RW

He ran twice. And thats the problem. (U/I) and the


first time he ran, he dropped out and (U/I).

TA

Edgar yeah yeah yeah yeah.

RW

And ahm then it took took a deal to pay off his debt
not even realizing he was gonna win. And he won
even though he wasnt even running anymore. He
was still on the ballot and he came in number one.

TA

I always say people like that name Anthony.

RW

Yeah, Anthony and Clark I mean. We just had the

TA

Sounds like Daryl or Gussy Clark.

RW

Yeah and Daryl Clark (U/I) I just know that this light
bulb is is it in there? Theres no bulb in there at all.

UF

The way that chair turns.


68 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

RW

Yeah. Oh yeah here it is. Over here (U/I).

UF

Do you want me to go get a light bulb? Where they at?

RW

Yeah, you dont know. I dont know either.

UF

Oh.

RW

I got to look for them.

UF

(U/I). Somebody downstairs right now.

RW

Im going to put one of those um, long lasting light


bulbs up there.

TA

The ones from GE are the best.

RW

Which ones like these?

TA

Ah ha.

RW

Yeah. They do last a long time.

TA

They do. They last a long time.

RW

They last a long time.

UF

(U/I). I gotta get ready for (U/I).

RW

Yeah, I gotta get ready, I got an appointment at 12

TA

Me too. In about twenty minutes.

RW

(U/I). Yeah, all the way up in Germantown.

UF

Oh gosh.

RW

Yeah.

TA

Use your brains to break the chains.


69 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

RW

Yeah thats what I tell you. Thats my thing man. Im


telling (U/I).

TA

You just bumped me on purpose. Dont you try it.


Shes trying to injure me Ron. See that? She trying to
injure me.

RW

This is my baby girl. This is my first born here man.

TA

(2:08:14) I know.

RW

Yeah. People cant believe, I cant believe shes her


age. I mean cuz Im looking at wait a minute, am I
(U/I). Slow down baby girl. Slow down.

TA

Its amazing all the things that are taking place.

RW

Sounds good, man.

TA

All the time.

RW

All the time.


[2:08:32]

TA

Look its good seeing you brother.

RW

Yeah.

TA

I will. I will call you Monday.

RW

Alright.

TA

Alright? And then well try to see what we think

RW

We got to just have meetings every now and then.

TA

And lets figure out. Sure, and just figure out what
makes sense for us. You know?

70 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

RW

Alright. Alright. Ok.

TA

If I could find if I

RW

He, he, I see him up in Harrisburg. He said, Whos


running your campaign?
I want to be on your
campaign. He always offer to help out.

RWs
Um hmm.
daughter
RW

Every time I would see him.

TA

Im one of those people I like to help people. I always


do.

RW

Do you have a card with you?

TA

You know what, I dont. But I will make sure I bring


one for you.

RW

(U/I).

TA

I have your number.

RW

Let me put your phone number in

TA

Oh, oh sure. Its 215, 215, 868. Here let me write it


down for you.

RW

Ok. (U/I).

TA

Can I write it on here Ron?

RW

Yeah.

TA

Can I write it right here?


[2:09:24]

UF

(U/I).
71 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

RW

Oh yeah. That what happens with me too.

UF

You know what I heard.


The other thing about
wearing their pants down that I was trying to get out
to the guys. I put it on my facebook page but they
were saying that in jail too not just because they took
the belt from them, but it (U/I).

TA

Because youre taken.

RW

Yeah right.

TA

Right. Youre not taken.

UF

And I was like some of these guys knew that means.

RW

Thats what it means.

UF

Hey if you are available, you know they think its


because of the belt and they make you look tough.

RW

Thats why they say (U/I). You got to figure out why
somebody looking at your butt.
You should be
questioning that. Youre showing it off. You know
what I mean.

UF

Yes.

RW

Some of those guys man.

TA

All the young boys who are crazy.


soon.

RW

Alright.

TA

Its good seeing you as always.

RW

Good seeing you man.

TA

Alright. Ill talk to you soon.


72 | P a g e

Ill talk to you

T-6 October 22, 2010

RW

We gotta keep in touch, okay?

TA

Ill call you on Monday.

RW

Ok.

TA

Ill be around.

RW

Alright.

TA

Ill be around.

RW

Alright.

TA

Monica, did you drive down?

UF

Huh.

TA

Did you drive down?

RW

Did you drive down?

TA

Did you drive down or you need a ride up?

UF

Oh no I drove.

TA

Ok. Ron, Ill see you soon. Ill call you Monday.
Alright hon. Bye-bye. See that. Told you my friends
dont forget me. Good seeing you (U/I).

RW

(U/I).

TA

Take good care. (U/I).

UM

Assalamualaikum.

TA

Walaikum salam. How you doing?

RW

Fine. You?

73 | P a g e

T-6 October 22, 2010

TA

Good.
TA makes phone call to SSSA Thomas.

TA

(2:12:19) Hey sir, how are you?


Good. Are you, where are you?
Ok.
Im leaving the office now. He took the money.
Said thank you.
He took the money. All of it and said thank you.
And it was a very good conversation.
Im, Im at 60th and Market. So do you want to meet
and 30th and Market?
Or, where is good for you?
Thats good?>
Ok.
Alright. Ill see you at 30th and Market. Ill be there in
about fif, ten, fifteen minutes.
Ok, we can meet even closer to that then. If if you.
Yeah. Let me, let me see wheres an easy, easyplace.
Ahmm, right there at. I just want to clear her. You
know what, 30th and Market is fine.
Ill see you right there. Alright then. Thank you. Byebye.

CT

(2:13:25) Let me do that first.


This is Senior Supervisory Special Agent Claude
Thomas deactivating tape again on todays date being
Friday, October 22, 2010, current time is twelve noon
exactly. Tape being deactivated.

74 | P a g e

T-12 November 8, 2010


This is Claude Thomas, Senior Supervisory Special Agent, Pennsylvania
Office of Attorney General. Badge #118, A-Certification #A-1418. Will be
making a consensual intercept between CI 2010-01 and State
Representative Ronald Waters. Todays date is Monday, November 8,
2010. Time is 14:06 pm. The number to be dialed is area code (267)
246-6185. Call will be made at this time.
RW
TA
RW
TA
RW
TA

Hello. (U/I background noise).


Hey Ron how are you doing?
Ok. Hold one minute. Hold on.
Yeah, sure. Go ahead.
(U/I background noise)
Hey there sir. How are you doing? I didnt catch up with you
on Sat Hello?
[call dropped] [TA places another call to the number]

RW
SSSAT
TA

Your call has been forwarded to an automatic voice messaging


system
Maybe U/I call him back.
Try the number again?
[TA places another call to the number]

RW
TA

Your call has been forwarded to an automatic voice messaging


system.
Hes in a place where there are a lot of people. I could hear it.

Call being, tape being deactivated at this time.

1 | Page

T-23 December 8, 2010


This is Senior Supervisory Special Agent Claude Thomas, PA Office of
Attorney General. Badge #118, A-Certification #A-1418. Todays date is
Wednesday, December 8, 2010. Current time is 16:28 hundred hours.
About to make a consensual intercept between CI#2010-01 and R.W. at
(267) 246-6185 in reference to investigation #36-622. Uh this recording
would be a, a will be made at this time.

(PAUSE UNTIL 2:53)


RW

[2:53] Yes. Yes.

TA

Hey Ron?

RW

Hey.

TA

Hey, its Tyron. How are you doing sir?

RW

Hey, how you feeling my brother?

TA

Good. Good man. I, uh, I was actually up in Harrisburg and I


was trying to figure out if you might have been up there or not.
I tried calling your office earlier but, uh, I couldnt get through
where I was where I was, uh, driving. Are you up there any
time this week?

RW

Uh, no. Unless they get my car fixed, um, I, but, other than
that I dont plan on being up there. They got two more days
man. I still have this car they loaned to me about a month ago
now.

TA

Mmm.

RW

Problem, problem with them getting my car back to me. Uh


cause I had a, um, a little damage to my bumper. Nothing
major.

TA

Mm hmm

RW

They had to replace -- had to replace the bumper just some


scrapes on it. And there was something else that lit up on my
dashboard they had to look into. I dont know if they had to
order some parts and thats the delay. But, um, but anyway so
you still up there?

1 | Page

T-23 December 8, 2010

TA

No, we came back down this morning. From what I


understand, um, either Friday afternoon before 2:00 or
Monday morning the committee assignments are going to be
handed out.

RW

Ok.

TA

Have you heard that?

RW

Um, no. But, you know I dont know when they are going to be
handed out. I can find out. Yeah, I, I dont know what
committees Im gonna get on.

TA

But, remember what we talked about.

RW

Right. Ok.

TA

This guy, um, there, there may be a new uh, I, I believe he was
a member at one point. You, you remember the Italian guy.
Whats his name Dante Santoni?

RW

Yeah. Hes on Gaming Oversight.

TA

Yeah. Um, he, uh, he may actually be, uh, one of the folks on,
on that on that committee that we talked about.

RW

Hes the chairman on the Gaming Oversight Committee.

TA

Um, what Ive talked I understand that. Were talking about


the other committee.

RW

Ok.

TA

You know? He might be, uh, might be over there. Im not sure
yet. So, on Monday I will know more. Do you, uh, do you
foresee being up in Harrisburg anytime next week?

RW

I hope they have my car ready. [5:27] Its too late for me to call
them right now to see whats going on, but I hope if they have
my car ready Monday Ill go up there. It dont matter, whatever
day my cars ready Im going up there to get my car back and,
um, give them back this loaner car.

2 | Page

T-23 December 8, 2010


TA

Ok.

RW

(5:40) I have no way of knowing when its gonna be. But, right
now were planning, the plan is to be up there Wednesday
because, um, the Black Caucus is gonna have the election of
the ordinance.

TA

Right.

RW

So, I, I have it scheduled for Wednesday. Thats the only, um,


thing that I know about right now. The day I know about right
now that Ill be up there.

TA

Besides, uh, besides the normal folks whose name will appear
undoubtedly in the hat, do you think anybody else might be
looking for, uh, might be looking for a leadership post?

RW

The leadership post is already gone.

TA

No. I mean in terms of a Black Caucus, Im not talking about


the party.

RW

Whoa, whoa, whoa, um, well

TA

Cuz I hear from what I understand Im talking to the guy


whos gonna be the guy. Ha ha ha ha

RW

Oh, ok. Well Ive already been voted.

TA

Ok.

RW

My position was already voted on. (6:36) They elected me as


chair. They just didnt elect the other people. Because when
the when the thing went down with, with Dwight Evans, um,
everybody was told just you know surprise that nobody, um,
really you know like nominated anybody else for any other
positions and voted on it. So, we might just keep it the way it
is.

TA

And I whole heartedly agree. People are looking for people who
they can trust and who they feel, um, can present their
agendas in the best possible way. In addition to that their
looking for someone that, uh, thats a familiar face. And God
knows you youve been that. You know?

3 | Page

T-23 December 8, 2010

RW

Oh yeah. Yeah. I tried too. I tried to register as a pompous


ass, or an extremist, or as a terrorist, or a racist. You know
what I mean? We want the U/I thats going to be at the table.
Thats all.

TA

I hear ya. Alright, so let me let me ask you let me do this, do


you want me to call you Wednesday morning see where you
are.

RW

Ok

TA

Or Tuesday afternoon. Maybe Ill call you Tuesday afternoon


and, uh, well see if we can get together up in Harrisburg on
Wednesday. You know? Cuz there will be some re-shuffling at
the last minute and I want to make.

RW

(7:54) Ok. Ok.

TA

How are you doing otherwise, everything alright?

RW

Yeah, its all good man. All good. Going to New York over the
weekend.

TA

How was that?

RW

The, uh, Pennsylvania, um, Society weekend event you know


they have every year up there.

TA

I know, but, uh, I dont know who goes but I know that one
year Seidel had gone. I was invited to go, but I never made it.

RW

He goes. He, he definitely went when he was gonna be a


candidate for mayor. Thats when

TA

Yes

RW

People go

TA

Yes, yes to raise that money.

RW

Yeah

4 | Page

T-23 December 8, 2010


TA

[8:33] To raise money. I told you the two, the two clients that
were representing now theyre both out of New York. You
know what I mean? Thats why when I tell you, uh, money is
not really our primary concern it really isnt. You know? Its
not our primary concern.

RW

Ok. Good.

TA

You know? The, uh, the other piece that I wanted to ask yet
and Im not sure if this is going to come up or not, but, uh,
how, I really havent gotten your thoughts - and we can talk
about this on Wednesday - but it seems like the more its being
discussed the more its being accepted and thats the
privatization of the stores.

RW

Well, the, um, what Ive been hearing is that its, its, its pretty
much gonna be a done deal, and you know, theres going to be
a lot of people in favor of it, um, so its, its thats why they feel
its gonna be a done deal. Now I know we havent gotten any
pushbacks yet from the union.

TA

Mm hmm.

RW

But I know, I know its gonna come.

TA

Well let me ask you this, while I do have you on the phone and
were sort of talked about it, can you talk to Wendell?

RW

Well, sure.

TA

Ok. Because their you know what their concern is. Their
concern is that 3,000 workers out of their local 1776 are gonna
windup either unemployed or displaced and that is simply not
the case. Not with the, uh, not with the proposition that were
gonna push. You know? Um, Ive outlined a carefully thought
out plan in terms of retraining, uh, health care benefits, a
living wage, uh, other types of benefits. When I see you on
Wednesday well talk about it some more. But, uh, Ron Ill tell
you something: if this thing becomes private, if, if this really
does happen, um, we will be quite happy. And by we, I mean
us. You know what I mean?

RW

Ok.

5 | Page

T-23 December 8, 2010


TA

Itll work well for, for us. Um, I will, I will call you Tuesday
afternoon and, uh, and Ill hopefully - you know what time are
you going up to Harrisburg? You think youll go up there
Wednesday morning?

RW

Uh, absolutely.

TA

Alright.

RW

Absolutely.

TA

Ill call, Ill call you Tuesday afternoon and then after youre
finished Ill a, Ill a give you a call and well see if we can hook
up on, uh, Wednesday afternoon or Wednesday morning
whichevers better for you.

RW

Ok.

TA

Alright, my friend. Talk to you soon.

RW

Alright, you take care, brother.

TA

Alright

RW

Bye-bye
[11:16]

Tape is being deactivated, tape is being deactivated at this time again on


todays date Wednesday, December 8, 2010. Time is 16:39 hundred
hours.

6 | Page

T-27 December 15, 2010

This is Senior Supervisory Special Agent Claude Thomas, badge


number 118, A certification number is A-1418, about to make a
consensual intercept to RW. The number to be called is his office
and that number is area code (717) 772-9850. Intercept will be
made between RW and CI 2010-01 on todays date being
Wednesday, December 15, 2010. Time is 10:48 hundred hours.
The call will be made at this time.
TA
SSSAT
RW

=
=
=

Consenting Party
Senior Supervisory Special Agent Claude Thomas
Ron Waters

???

Representative Waters Office. April speaking.

TA

Hi.
This is Tyron Ali.
Can I speak with the
representative please. I was just on the phone with
him.

???

Uh, hold on please.

TA

Thank you dear.

RW

[2:11] (U/I).

TA

Hey Ron.

RW

Hi.

TA

Im here now.

RW

Ok.

TA

Is twelve oclock good for you in your office?

RW

Yeah.

TA

Alright.

RW

Yeah.

1 | Page

T-27 December 15, 2010

TA

You, what, what, what is your address over, I know


youre in the Irvis Building.

RW

Ah.

TA

What floor is it and the number.

RW

What is my, what is it 328 (U/I).

???

Yeah.

RW

328 yeah.

TA

Room 328 in the Irvis Building.

RW

Ah huh.

TA

Alright. Ill see you at twelve oclock sir.

RW

Ok.

TA

Thanks. Good bye.

RW

Bye.

SSSAT

Tape being deactivated at this time, 10:51 hundred


hours.

2 | Page

1
2

PENNSYLVANIA OFFICE OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL


DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S OFFICE

3 Penn Square

Philadelphia, Pennsylvania 19107-3499

5
6
7
8
9

Investigation #: 36-662

10
11
12

Transcription of audio file: T-28 December 15, 2010

13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20

Transcribed by:

21

Brenda Pardun, RPR, Court Reporter and Notary Public

(December 15, 2010)

2
3

AGENT CLAUDE THOMAS:

Pennsylvania Office of

Attorney General, badge number is 118, A

certification number A1418.

This device is being activated to record

consensual conversation between R.W. and

CI-2010-01.

Today's date is Wednesday, December the 15th,

10

2010.

Current time is 1153 hundred hours.

11

be deactivated by myself at a later time.

This tape will

12

(Pause from 00:37 to 01:05.)

13

This is Claude Thomas, senior supervisory

14

special agent, Pennsylvania Office of Attorney

15

General, badge number is 118.

16

number is A1418.

17

A certification

This device is being placed on CI-2010-01,

18

on today's date, being Wednesday, December 12th,

19

year 2010.

Current time is 1154 hours.

20

(Pause from 01:35 to 13:03.)

21

TYRON ALI:

Thanks.

Thank you.

Hey, Joel.

JOEL:

TYRON ALI:

How are you?

Hanging in.

(13:16)

(13:16)

afternoon.

know I'm actually here?

Yeah, hi.

This is Tyron Ali.

Could you let Ron

Thank you.

(Pause from 13:38 to 14:30.)

TYRON ALI:

No, I'm just waiting.

(Pause from 14:36 to 15:44.)

11

TYRON ALI:

(phone call)

12

outside room 328.

13

wait inside or wait outside?

14

18
19

Okay.

Oh, sure.

Hi.

I'm actually

Do you want me to (15:52)

No problem.

Thank you.

Bye-bye.

16
17

Thank

you.

10

15

Good

Oh, hi.
you.

How are you?

Tyron Ali.

Thank

Nice to meet you.


FEMALE 1:

to meet you.

Danielle -- (inaudible) -- nice

He's right next door.

20

TYRON ALI:

21

FEMALE 1:

Okay.
You can have a seat right here.

1
2

TYRON ALI:
you.

No, I'm okay.

Thank you.
Thanks.

Thank you. Okay.

(16:25)

(Pause from 16:25 to 17:37.)

TYRON ALI:

RON WATERS:

TYRON ALI:

Hey there, sir.


Im alright.

How are you?


You got the bow tie on.

Oh, youre going to start teasing me,

too?

8
9

Thank

RON WATERS:
kiddin?

No, man.

I love bow ties. Are you

I love bow ties, man.

10

TYRON ALI:

11

RON WATERS:

12

TYRON ALI:

How's it going?
I used to wear them all the time.
You know what, I'll give (17:56)

13

you a deal.

One of my friends grabbed it, not this

14

one but another one, and said, Man, that's a

15

clip-on.

16

I said, No, this is not our ties.

17

How's it going?

18

RON WATERS:

19

You tie that?

20

TYRON ALI:

21

RON WATERS:

Good.

Oh, yeah.

Um-hum.

That's as good as a clip on.

That

why he thought it was.

TYRON ALI:

RON WATERS:

TYRON ALI:

RON WATERS:

clip-ons.

TYRON ALI:

RON WATERS:

10

(18:12)

(18:12)

It's perfect.

[laughing] Thank you.


We used to wear -- I used to wear

I never learned how to tie them.

Right.

One of these days I'll show you.


Yeah.

Yeah.

I appreciate that,

because I would love tying my tie myself, man.


love wearing bow ties.

11

TYRON ALI:

12

RON WATERS:

13

over.

14

-- he stepped down.

15

Brownlee.

[18:24]

How did things go this morning?


Good.

The election is

Everybody moved around except for Jake.

16

TYRON ALI:

17

RON WATERS:

He's

He made room for Michelle

Can I borrow one of these?


Yeah.

She's now the secretary.

18

And Vanessa is the vice-chair.

19

treasurer.

Kenyatta will be

And --

20

TYRON ALI:

21

RON WATERS:

How did that happen?


I don't know he was selected -- he

never said he wanted it.

it, so thats how come her name came up, and nobody said

anything, so she got it, because Kenyatta wanted it

but he never said anything.

5
6
7
8
9

TYRON ALI:

Vanessa had expressed interest in

So, Kenyatta's going to wind up

being the secretary?


RON WATERS: Hes going to be --no he was
secretary, now he's going to be treasurer.
TYRON ALI:

10

RON WATERS:

11

TYRON ALI:

12

RON WATERS:

He's going to be the treasurer.


Yeah.
Okay.
He's going to be

13

treasurer.

And Vanessa's vice-chair, and Michelle

14

Brownlee is secretary.

15

TYRON ALI:

16

RON WATERS:

You're staying on it; right?


Yeah, I'm still on as chair.

17

elected chair back on November 16th.

18

already elected for chair.

19

TYRON ALI:

20

RON WATERS:

21

chairmanship.

So, I was

Okay.
But we only voted for

We didn't go through the rest of the

I was

-- the rest of the members.

2
3

TYRON ALI:

Who else is on there, (19:46)

(19:46) Ron?

RON WATERS:

Well, everybody's a member besides

Cruz.

Cruz wrote a letter saying he don't want to

be on the black caucus anymore.

his letter.

TYRON ALI:

RON WATERS:

10

TYRON ALI:

11

RON WATERS:

12

wrote a letter.

13

it's okay.

14

So, we accepted

When did that happen?


No.

Yesterday?

He did that a while ago.

You're kidding me.


Yeah.

About almost a month ago he

But he never participated, so, (20:06)

He never participated.

TYRON ALI:

Yeah, but, see, that, that, kind of --

15

that lack of cohesiveness is what creates the gaps,

16

and the gaps are what lets the problems in, you

17

know.

18

RON WATERS:

Right, right.

So, now, he's not

19

here.

So, where he was like a missing person, an anti-

20

member, now he's gone, so we don't have to deal with that

21

anymore.

But we can still deal with issues that relevant

to -- (inaudible) --.

make sure I tell these people I need a (20:36)

(20:36) press release for the legislation I passed.

I did a bill --

TYRON ALI:

RON WATERS:

And I have -- I've got to

Um-hum.
For the national organization

saying that we should, all over the state, oppose

the legislation they did in Arizona with -- the

racial profiling legislation they did, and that's

10

good for Latinos, because those are the ones in

11

Arizona where they was being targeted.

12

TYRON ALI:

13

RON WATERS:

14

TYRON ALI:

15

RON WATERS:

Absolutely. (21:04)
Illegal immigrant.
Absolutely.

You know?

I remember.

So, he always said that nobody

16

dealt with Latino issues, that's a damn lie.

And

17

when that boy got beat up in the state and killed,

18

the immigrant worker, we was on top of that, asking

19

for an investigation.

20

man, I forgot to tell them I need to do a press release

21

on that I got to get it sent out there --

You know, I got to get the -- oh,

1
2

TYRON ALI:

Donatucci's wife, have you?

3
4

RON WATERS:

(21:35)

(21:35)

She -- yeah.

Last night

she was in council with the ward leaders.

5
6

You haven't heard anything about

TYRON ALI:

What are they going to do with

her?

RON WATERS:

TYRON ALI:

RON WATERS:

10

TYRON ALI:

11

RON WATERS:

12

TYRON ALI:

13

RON WATERS:

14

TYRON ALI:

15

RON WATERS:

They gonna support her.


Okay.
They have -The special election?
Yeah, a special election.
When?

In March?

(21:46)

February 1st.
February?

Okay.

February 1st.

And she's going to

16

be the democratic candidate.

Bob Brady is on board.

17

All the ward leaders are on board.

18

(On the phone) I need a press release put together

19

about last -- about the -- what we did in Atlanta with the

20

Bob Bogle (ph) and the -- and the resolutions that

21

they voted on unanimously, my two resolutions.

So,

10

I need that to be -- the one bill with the Arizona,

and the one for cultural competency, (22:30)

(22:30) another bill.

national -- yeah, let them know.

TYRON ALI:

RON WATERS:

TYRON ALI:

Okay?

And those are now


Okay?

Well --- end up doing it.


No.

You know, it was such a

blistering commentary in the Daily News yesterday,

and I just thought it was so uncalled for.

10

Did you read the article?

11

RON WATERS:

12

TYRON ALI:

No.

Which one?

The article which was a (22:58)

13

response to the op-ed piece that Marian Tasco had

14

written --

15

RON WATERS:

16

TYRON ALI:

17

RON WATERS:

18

TYRON ALI:

19

RON WATERS:

20

TYRON ALI:

21

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

-- the week before -Yeah.

Yeah.

-- with Cruz.
Yeah.
You know, I don't understand where

that level of aggression comes from, but it must

11

come from a very deep place, because, clearly, it's

been baggage that he's brought with him (23:17)

(23:17) and has -- continues to rear its head.

mean, you can't get anything done that way.

know?

RON WATERS:

You

I heard he called -- I heard he

talked about his money he didn't get, and then

Jewell was just in here.

something about a lap dog or something.

He said -- he mentioned

10

don't know if that's true or not.

11

article.

12
13

And so, I

I didn't see the

But I know I got to get a copy of it.


TYRON ALI:

Alright, well what's your fax number?

(23:38) I'll have somebody fax it over to you.

14

RON WATERS:

15

TYRON ALI:

16

RON WATERS:

17

TYRON ALI:

215-748-1687.
This is home; right?
Yeah.

Yeah.

[23:47]

The other thing, while we're

18

looking -- I don't know if you've read any of the

19

research or not, but there are only about, probably

20

seventeen -- I guess it's probably fourteen or

21

seventeen states that have yet to privatize this

12

liquor piece.

RON WATERS:

TYRON ALI:

Okay.
The other piece is, we're

doing an entire report that looks at these four

things.

right?

three thousand state workers.

got the ability to push smaller commercial brands.

You've got the ability to develop commercial

And the first problem is the union problem,


Because we've got local 1776 that's got
Beyond that, we've

10

accounts, and then, as any private business, you

11

would have the ability to look at the capital

12

markets for infusions of capital and

13

to be able to borrow money at a cheaper rate.

14

Now, the folks that we represent in New

15

York, as I told you last week, you know, the biggest

16

piece is to make sure that the research that we put

17

together is actually something not only can we let

18

it be for public consumption, but that it makes

19

sense for Pennsylvania.

20

we're on the right track.

21

RON WATERS:

You know?

And I think

I know 1776 is going to be opposed

13

to it, and you expect it to be.

TYRON ALI:

Yes.

RON WATERS: Um, and I know that's -- one

of the concerns that people are going to have is

with -- only because of free market, then what are

going to be the -- right now, people are making a

living for wages, and after that becomes private,

anybody can, you know, pretty much open up a liquor

store as long as they qualify.

10

Will they -- what

standards will they have to be -- (inaudible) --?

11

TYRON ALI:

Okay.

Part of what we are going

12

to propose -- look, you've got to look at

13

it this way, you know and I know that sometimes

14

during the holiday season they tend to hire more

15

folks; right?

16

three thousand workers.

17

hundred.

18

that, we're looking to introduce -- that's why the

19

legislation that has to be introduced has to be

20

almost two-part. One specifically dealing with how

21

they're going to address that unemployment or

So, I don't know that it's actually


It might be twenty-eight

It might be twenty-seven hundred.

Beyond

14

underemployment situation.

then the other piece is almost de facto, it's

how's the business going to operate.

That's number one.

And

In terms of the folks who are in the

union, my suggestion is that we create a training

program that allows these folks to be certified in

that particular industry.

program comes about, you know, you bring in your

professionals, you bring in some industry

Now, how that training

10

relationships, you bring in some sponsorships to be

11

able to benefit from those kinds of training, and

12

then you may not be able to hire everyone,

13

but the majority of those people should be able to

14

keep their jobs.

You know?

15

RON WATERS:

16

TYRON ALI:

That's critical.

Thats important. Yeah.


You know that and I know that,

17

especially with unemployment looming at nine and a

18

half percent.

You know?

19

RON WATERS:

20

TYRON ALI:

21

entire situation.

Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.


It's actually the crux of the

15

But, at the end of the day, the other piece

is to make sure that, you know, what needs

to happen is what's actually happening.

Pennsylvania needs to privatize.

time.

And

It's about that

I mean, there are huge opportunities not

just to create commercial accounts and for

import/export like any normal business, but the fact

of the matter is that these liquor stores, they only

10

serve the demographic that they're situated in.

11

the first time, they would actually be able to do

12

more than that.

13

should do.

14

organic or it should grow through acquisitions.

15

None of those things are happening right now.

16

it's stagnant, and it needs to move forward.

17

know?

18

And that's what a business

It should grow and expand.

RON WATERS:

It should be

So,
You

How has it affected

19

other -- other states where they had moved from

20

state-owned to -- state-approved stores to --

21

For

TYRON ALI:

In the research that we've done

16

thus far, and it's certainly not that -- it's a work in

progress -- when you look at New York, for

example, where you have over three

hundred -- I'm sorry, six hundred stores, you're

looking at leasing space anywhere from thirty-four

dollars to almost, I think it was a hundred and

eighty-six dollars per square foot.

the problems, because the state has to create

this -- this -- this budget that allows for these

That's one of

10

folks to be able to pay either the rent or acquire

11

the building to be able to, then, house this

12

liquor -- this liquor store.

13

longer going to be.

14

That is no

And I don't know in Pennsylvania, I

15

don't know as of yet -- and this is something that

16

we're in the process of getting to -- how many of

17

these sites are actually owned by the state, and,

18

then, what's the fair market value, because all of

19

those things -- sure.

20
21

RON WATERS:

I don't know that they own any of

them buildings, not the state stores.

They rent.

17

think they rent all of them.

TYRON ALI:

mean?

couple.

In New York, I know that they own a


Or they did, anyway.

RON WATERS:

TYRON ALI:

RON WATERS:

TYRON ALI:

the capital budget.

10

Well, see -- see what I

Yeah.
In Pennsylvania, at least -Right.

Okay.

At least that money won't be in


You know?

That -- the other piece, the other piece which

11

is even more important than that, is whether or not

12

the leadership is going to accept this.

13

And it's this fact:

14

liquor store simply serving the demographic, your

15

tax is capped.

16

business, you can look at the fact that that tax

17

revenue is going to multiply.

18

it's going to multiply.

19

numbers yet.

20

accounts, when you look at the possibility for

21

import/export, or even doing business across state

For now, when you've got a

Right?

But once you have a true

Now, I don't know how

We haven't gotten to the

But when you look at commercial

18

lines, you've got the ability to increase that tax

revenue.

the -- the employment, underemployment

situation aside, that's the biggest thing.

And that, to me -- I mean,

RON WATERS:

Because people who mark it up,

where, like, they -- the state stores can't mark --

all the state stores got to sell them for the same

price.

9
10
11
12

TYRON ALI:
RON WATERS:

Right.
But if they're independent stores,

they -- the price can fluctuate?


TYRON ALI:

The price could fluctuate,

13

but here is what -- and that's competition, and

14

that's good for everybody.

15

But, beyond those things, here's the piece

16

that I think some folks have missed.

When you look

17

at the sale of wines or you look at the sale of

18

spirits, a lot of times you don't see beer in that, in

19

those two categories.

20

don't know that it's really aggressive growth, but I

21

know that there's been some growth in looking at the

There has been some growth, and I

19

microbreweries in Pennsylvania.

York, and Virginia have quite a few (30:52)

microbreweries.

project for these liquor stores will allow these

microbreweries to put their business, their product

line in these new businesses.

brand awareness.

their company.

Pennsylvania, New

This new approach, this new housing

And it gives them

It gives them the ability to grow

And I'm quite sure that there's going to be

10

some tax credit issues that accompany the

11

legislation.

12

You know?

And it's good for everybody, because it

13

raises the tax revenue.

It allows smaller business

14

to participate in the larger scheme of things.

15

Beyond that, the folks who are unemployed,

16

underemployed, seasonal employment folks, this

17

certification program that we're proposing is going

18

to allow these folks to be better trained.

19

the end of the day, if you are unemployed or

20

underemployed, you need to be retooled for the jobs

21

that are relevant for today.

And at

And this -- this

20

industrys still very relevant.

be retrained. (31:54)

3
4

RON WATERS:

TYRON ALI:

RON WATERS:

TYRON ALI:

RON WATERS:

TYRON ALI:

10

RON WATERS:

TYRON ALI:

Six hundred -Six hundred nineteen stores.


State stores?
Yes.
So, New York still has the state

No.

No.

They've (32:07)

privatized.

14
15

Yes.

store system.

12
13

(31:54) You're talking New York,

New York.

11

They just need to

RON WATERS:

They got six hundred nineteen

stores that are approved to sell.

16

TYRON ALI:

I don't know that all of them are,

17

but these are the number of sites that they've got

18

so far.

19
20
21

You know?
RON WATERS:

And they're all independently

operated.
TYRON ALI:

Well, New York does not support

21

chain-owned liquor stores.

independently owned.

RON WATERS:

They're

(32:27)
(32:27) They're all

independently --

5
6

You know?

TYRON ALI:

They're independently owned.

Right.

RON WATERS:

TYRON ALI:

RON WATERS:

10

TYRON ALI:

11

RON WATERS:

12

TYRON ALI:

13

RON WATERS:

14

TYRON ALI:

So -Right.
So, you could go buy beer, wine, or
Spirits, yes.

Hard liquor.

Hard liquor.
Um-hum. (32:38)
And brew -- and beer, too?
You know what, I'm not certain as

15

to whether or not they allow the microbreweries into

16

those stores.

17

what's today's date?

18

would say by the time you guys get -- because the

19

package is going to be here before the 10th of

20

January.

21

stats, because we're going to propose it to your

But, again, you know, probably in the next Today's date is the 15th, I

We should have all the numbers and all the

22

committee.

RON WATERS:

Because I know, like, in (33:05)

(33:05) Jersey, that's what it is.

to like a Canal store

you could buy beer or you could buy wine or you

could buy hard liquor in those stores.

could -- and their hours are different too.

you go there up till 10:00 and buy -- well,

Pennsylvania has a couple stores that stay open 'til

10

You go in Jersey

-- (inaudible) --

I think you
I think, if

10 o'clock too, you know, a few of them.

11

TYRON ALI:

They also -- you know, that's one

12

of the things that sort of makes sense is (33:33)

13

for those stores to be open twenty-four hours.

14

One of the issues that has to be dealt with is a

15

comment that's been sort of floating around, and the

16

comment is this:

17

readily available, that you're actually encouraging

18

people to drink.

19

though.

20

for that.

21

business, the mathematics sort of correlates to the

You know?

If liquor's more available, more

And that's not necessarily true,


And there's several arguments

I mean, most of the time, in any small

23

fact that if you're open, you're going to do more

business.

(34:07) been the position of the manufacturers to

please drink and not drive, and if you are going to

drink, do so in moderation.

going to continue.

You know?

And it's always (34:07)

And those messages are

You know?

I think that it also provides the

opportunity for more awareness, actually, about the

negatives of drinking and driving.

I think you can

10

do workshops and that kind of thing, and that would

11

probably help as well.

12

The name of the game here is (34:32)

13

simply to create a business that is both necessary

14

and creates tax revenue.

15

day, those are the problems that we're faced with.

16

Those are the problems that you kind of need to

17

solve, besides the four-billion-dollar gap that's

18

coming.

19

I mean, at the end of the

RON WATERS: Oh, yeah, man.

I know that's --

20

what we want to do, is take that money to fill this year's

21

or next year's gap.

24

1
2

TYRON ALI:

but any help at all -- (35:01)

3
4

It's not going to happen that way,

RON WATERS:

(35:01)

Oh, it won't fill

that gap.

TYRON ALI:

RON WATERS:

TYRON ALI:

The other thing is that you're going to be

Any help at all.


They wont make that much money - No.

No. [35:05]

able -- this is something else that people are not

10

really -- those who are not informed really don't

11

understand, and it's this:

12

acquisition of the license, include the tax

13

revenue from the sale of those licenses, you come up

14

with a pretty decent number, depending on how they

15

structure the sale of these new licenses.

16
17
18

RON WATERS:

When you look at the

How many stores do they plan

on -- I mean, do they have a limit?


TYRON ALI:

My, my proposition, at least based on

19

the proposal that we're doing, is that we look at a

20

pilot program.

21

accept that or not.

Now I don't know if they're going to


But the point is, that's

25

exactly what we're going to propose.

program with a handful of stores, maybe a

dozen, and see how this works.

4
5

RON WATERS:

TYRON ALI:

RON WATERS:

9
10

And let the pilot run while the

current structure is still in place.

Create a pilot

Still exists, right.


Okay, so, that means that -- the

pilot would last for how long?


TYRON ALI:

I proposed, in our document,

twelve months.

11

RON WATERS:

12

TYRON ALI:

13

RON WATERS:

So, for a year.


Yes.
So, that means they wouldn't get

14

the money for that gap until a couple years anyway,

15

you know, if the pilots are successful --

16

TYRON ALI:

Well, there is something called

17

mark to market, and what we're looking at is, when

18

you -- when you do that, you're basically taking

19

into effect, into account the money from those

20

stores, based on the sale of the licenses.

21

that, you're also able to look at how and when these

Beyond

26

sales are actually going to take place.

that, it's ease of transition.

people don't like aggressive transition.

So, if you can make it smoother, they will probably

accept it.

Besides

You know,

Besides that, you know, beyond the fact

that we have to propose the bill through your

committee and then look at what amendments needs to

be made in order so that we can get the bill out of

10

committee and then get it re-proposed in the senate,

11

I mean, it's going to take some time.

12

So, I think, twelve months is sort of a

13

safe bet.

14

RON WATERS:

15

TYRON ALI:

You know?

Okay.
You know, we're not looking --

16

this is not going to be an overnight process.

17

is a slow walk.

18

RON WATERS:

19

TYRON ALI:

20
21

Okay.
Because it's going to change the

way that Pennsylvania is doing business.


RON WATERS:

This

Okay.

27

1
2

TYRON ALI:
both sides.

3
4

And that requires cooperation on

A lot of cooperation, actually.

RON WATERS:

I know they got these

kiosks (inaudible) --

TYRON ALI:

Yeah, they tried them in Wegmans,

and honestly, I don't know what the impact -- what

the fiscal impact has been.

far as sale of the wine product, more exposure for

the manufacturer, and then greater tax revenue from

The fiscal impact, as

10

that particular manufacturer, that particular

11

bottling company, and then I don't know what the

12

distribution costs are.

13

if that single source of effort, what the

14

implications have been.

15

RON WATERS:

So, I don't know

Well, I know Wegmans and Sheetz

16

and stores like that will probably support what you

17

want, because they want to be able to sell, in the

18

open market.

19

TYRON ALI:

20

folks.

21

York.

We're not worried about those

We're worried about our own folks in New


You know, that's the key.

28

As I said to you, they don't really -- New

York does not support chain-owned stores, (38:25)

(38:25) and that has not come up yet in

Pennsylvania.

that.

only a few families or a few businesses that can,

one, raise the capital; two, be able to raise -- to

run the business effectively and efficiently; and

then, three, be able to deal with any coincidental

Maybe there may be some resistance to

But the truth of the matter is that there are

10

costs that come up in order to either subsidize the

11

business or to help the business make more (38:52)

12

money.

13

RON WATERS:

14

TYRON ALI:

15

Um-hum.
You know, this is not New York.

It's a totally different aspect.

You know?

16

RON WATERS:

Well, that's big.

17

And then the Rite-Aids and the CVSs and all

18

those stores that were looking for this stuff to

19

become privatized before, because I think thats what

20

Ridge was going to do and it didn't happen while Ridge

21

was in office, and that's when the Rite-Aids was

29

like, oh, yeah, we want to be able to have the --

that's when they started closing down a lot (39:19)

39:19) of mom and pop drug stores.

TYRON ALI:

The real issue here is -- you

know, besides what we've just talked about, you have

one other thing going on, and it's simply this:

There has to be set-aside monies for the folks to

have support in the event that they believe that

they're suffering from that disease known as

10

alcoholism.

You know?

11

know, for right now, all we're looking to do is look

12

to folks like you for support and (39:51)

13

guidance --

14

RON WATERS:

15

TYRON ALI:

16

RON WATERS:

And we'll get to that.

You

I know.
-- to move this thing forward.
And I appreciate that because --

17

-- (inaudible) -- with independent stores, because,

18

like they did with the lottery and with gambling, but

19

those were done on a regulatory basis.

20

set aside money for compulsive gambling.

21

TYRON ALI:

Um-hum.

But they did


Remember?

They have GA, AA, and NA.

30

You know?

I know that SugarHouse and the other

folks, they winded up having to put aside, (40:26)

(40:26) some money specifically for that.

RON WATERS:

TYRON ALI:

RON WATERS:

TYRON ALI:

credits.

They got to - - yeah.


You know?
But how do you do that?
Well you do it in the form of tax

I mean, that's my proposal.

You know?

The other piece, the other piece that makes

10

sense is for a nonprofit organization to really lead

11

that effort.

12

are already engaged in that sort of, like, (40:51)

13

there's one, you know, GPUAC, they have several

14

programs.

15

Trusts, which are involved in the research and

16

funding of several other programs.

17

And you've got a couple of them that

And then you've got Pew Charitable

The issue then becomes whether or not those

18

folks are going to run that program like the EARN

19

centers, or whether or not they're going to do

20

something that is more therapy based, as opposed to

21

have it almost like a classroom.

You know, that's

31

really the question.

This is definitely going to happen. (41:20)

RON WATERS:

It's just a matter of time.

(41:20) Got to be ready though,

because, you know, those question that you're

saying, they are going to come up and those

resistance are going to be held.

(inaudible) -- this is going to lead to compulsive

gambling.

their homes and gambling their savings you know,

And I --

This is going to lead to people losing

10

people looking at all the negatives of it, crime and

11

all that kind of stuff.

12

So -- but we have to figure out, (41:48)

13

because people will say, well, the stores are more

14

readily available, who's, how, what -- each store is

15

a little bit more profit motivated, and they're more

16

likely to sell liquor to an individual who's an

17

intoxicated person at these stop-and-gos do, and --

18

(inaudible) -- and they are more likely to sell

19

liquor to a person, even if their age is questionable,

20

because theyre more driven by profit than they

21

are than, than anything else.

32

TYRON ALI: [42:22]

Okay.

Let's go back a little

bit.

earlier about the training program?

training program addresses those issues.

5
6

RON WATERS:

The

But they got that now.

And --

[Overtalking.]

7
8

Do you remember me talking to you

TYRON ALI:

There is -- there is legislation,

yeah.
RON WATERS:

I have a bill for that.

And my

10

bill just ran, and I keep getting -- it passes through

11

the House and gets to the Senate, and then they keep

12

piling all this other shit on top of it, man,

13

because these guys are like, well, this is a great

14

vehicle to grant, who could be opposed to that, so

15

then they start sliding their stuff in there, and

16

that slows the vehicle down, because now everybody's

17

like, well, I don't have a problem with that, but

18

this other stuff's, you know, is problematic.

19

TYRON ALI:

20

RON WATERS:

21

So --

That's where the politics come in.


Yeah.

And I told my staff, you

know, we're going to reintroduce it again.

We get

33

it through the House.

Donatucci was always able to

get it through the committee, and we

unanimously got -- got a unanimous vote on

the House.

like, this is going to be the first bill coming out

of liquor control that's going to be signed into

law, but these other members are pilling their shit on top

of it.

It goes to the Senate, and they're

I don't know, man.

TYRON ALI:

10

RON WATERS:

It would slow it down.

Well, look -If I can get it to work clean, I

11

think in this case, if they do look at this,

12

hopefully it will be done anyway, but they

13

got to get that bill through.

14

TYRON ALI:

Can I close this door?

15

Let me just share something with you.

16

Look, [closes door], here's the truth.

17

the chairman.

18

gonna have to exercise that God given right of

19

leverage.

20

this is for you.

21

All right?

All right?

At the end of the day, you're

I don't know -- I don't know how you --

RON WATERS:

You're

Oh, thank you.

34

TYRON ALI:

I don't know how that -- how you

do that.

(43:59) But the one that bothers me that

we talked about is Kenyatta.

of how he moves with Anthony.

there.

All right? Because


But we will get

RON WATERS:

TYRON ALI:

What I would like to do, do you think,

9
10

We will get there.

Friday -- do you think Friday you might be in the


office?

This Friday coming up?

11

RON WATERS:

12

TYRON ALI:

13

Right.

Yes.

Yeah, I can be there.


All right.

How about maybe 2

o'clock?

14

RON WATERS:

15

TYRON ALI:

16

RON WATERS:

Usually after 2:00.

(44:26)

After 2:00?
I'll be there before theyre

17

trying to get me appointed at 1:00.

18

do it because between 1:00 and 3:00 I'm already

19

committed to something.

20

before 1:00 or after -- hopefully before 1:00.

21

TYRON ALI:

22

RON WATERS:

23

TYRON ALI:

I couldn't

So, I could have a meeting

All right.
How about 12 o'clock?
12 o'clock, I'm going to call you.

35

RON WATERS:

TYRON ALI:

Okay.
And I'm going to -- the (44:50)

(44:50) reason I'm going to call you is, I might be

close to there probably around 1:00, 1:30, but let's

just keep talking.

RON WATERS:

TYRON ALI:

8
9
10
11
12

Okay.
By Monday -- are you coming back

up here Wednesday?
RON WATERS: No. I shouldnt be back [45:02]
TYRON ALI:

You're not going to be back until

January 4th?
RON WATERS:

No, I might come back up

13

here, to tell you the truth, because I'm really

14

thinking about some things that -- that I got to

15

come up here and talk to my staff about.

16

not going to be until next week.

17
18

TYRON ALI:

And that's

Well look, that will pay for your car.

[laughter] All right?

19

RON WATERS:

20

TYRON ALI: I'll give you a call Friday,

21

see where you are.

22

be back up here.

23

Appreciate it, man. Appreciate it.

And then on Wednesday, I should


All right?

RON WATERS:

Okay. All right.

36

TYRON ALI:

RON WATERS:

TYRON ALI:

RON WATERS:

TYRON ALI:

RON WATERS:

TYRON ALI:

(45:32)

Eventually, we're going

Kenyattas not on the committee.


He's not on?
He aint on liquor control.
Oh, I thought -- oh, these were

all black legislative caucus --

10

RON WATERS:

11

TYRON ALI:

12

RON WATERS:

13

Kenyatta (inaudible) --

to need to get the bill out of committee.

There's -- there's a lot going on.

-- (inaudible) -Got it.


Only black person on the

liquor control committee --

14

TYRON ALI:

15

RON WATERS:

16

TYRON ALI: It's you, John Myers. Did he retain it?

17

RON WATERS:

18

TYRON ALI:

19

RON WATERS:

20

-- is me.

He probably will stay on.


Um -Kenyattas not on that.

I don't

remember seeing any committee --

21
22

Let's go back to this then.

TYRON ALI:
right?

Dante Santoni is going to stay;

37

RON WATERS:

I heard -- well, you said that --

TYRON ALI:

RON WATERS: he wants it, but I'm hearing that he's

Yeah.

Yeah.

going to stay on liquor - - on gaming

oversight.

TYRON ALI:

Okay.

Listen, do me a favor.

Friday, I need to know who all the members are going

to be, because I'm sure that --

9
10

RON WATERS:

I can find out - - word is going to

leak out about these committee assignments.

11

TYRON ALI:

12

RON WATERS:

Um-hum.
-- (inaudible) -- and (46:36)

13

Harry Readshaw, he's going to be on [inaudible].

14

And what's her name, [inaudible] McGeehan is

15

going to be transportation.

16
17

TYRON ALI:

That's huge,

man.

18

RON WATERS:

19

TYRON ALI:

20

RON WATERS:

21

You're kidding me.

guy.

That's huge.
That's huge.
That's huge.

I'm shocked at this

He came from committee or committee --

38

which was like nothing, and when Mark Spello (ph) ran for

leadership, he positioned himself to get a (47:00)

(47:00) professional licensure, which was huge.

TYRON ALI:

RON WATERS:

Um-hum.
And now he's going to

transportation.

who's moving these -- who's got the seniority.

be, like, damn, boy, you get these powerful

committees, man.

10
11

I don't know where everybody is,

I want to get on transportation.

TYRON ALI:

RON WATERS:

13

TYRON ALI:

14

RON WATERS:

15

TYRON ALI:

Naw. (47:21)
No?
Only eleven years.
Eleven.

Oh, I'm sorry.

It's been

what -- who's there twenty years?

17

RON WATERS:

18

TYRON ALI:

19

RON WATERS:

20

TYRON ALI:

21

But you have been there for twenty

years plus.

12

16

think --

Twenty years?
Only a couple, right?
Louise Williams, Curtis Thomas.
Any of those two people on -- you

39

RON WATERS:

She don't even have twenty years

yet.

-- (inaudible) --

(47:47) Williams, Curtis Thomas and -- you mean

regulars?

TYRON ALI:

RON WATERS:

TYRON ALI:

8
9
10

I think Louise (47:47)

Um-hum.
And maybe Thaddeus Kirkland.
Do you think any of those folks

will wind up on liquor?


RON WATERS:
requested.

Well, see, I don't know if they

I requested it.

11

TYRON ALI:

12

RON WATERS:

You requested it.


I asked to be back on (48:05)

13

there, because it's a popular -- I'm going to tell

14

you right now, as short as we are in members, the

15

Democratic caucus, we're probably going to get six

16

committees easy.

17

last time, so I'm sure people are going to get six

18

committee.

You know, I had six committees

19

TYRON ALI:

20

RON WATERS:

21

to spread us around.

All right.
Okay.

You know, because they got

You know, we can't cover the

40

committees if they don't do that.

other people start passing through.

TYRON ALI:

[48:29]

So, I hope some

I think we'll be okay.

You know, look, at the end of the day, it's not --

for me, it's not about numbers.

relationships, because -- I've always been that

way.

8
9

And I deal with very few people.


RON WATERS:

I know.

I know you do.

TYRON ALI:
tie and my suit?

12

You like my suit?

You like my bow

Wow.

RON WATERS:

I like you, bow tie, white shirt, you

13

are (48:48) super clean today, Mr. Ali.

14

(inaudible) -- in gray.

15

It's not -- it don't look like that, man.

16

that.

17

TYRON ALI:

18

RON WATERS:

19

We'll see you --

I have a gray pinstripe.

Thank you.

I like

Thank you.

I need a new suit, man.

--

(inaudible) --

20
21

That's

a sharp suit, man.

10
11

It's about

TYRON ALI:
out.

One of these days we've got to go

41

RON WATERS:

TYRON ALI:

(49:10)

Yeah.
When things calm down.

(49:10)

This thing with Angel is -- it's

going to create some --

RON WATERS:

TYRON ALI:

RON WATERS:

TYRON ALI:

RON WATERS:

Angel is an angry -Yes.


-- Latino.

And --

Yes.
And he has had bad attendance on

10

the floor.

11

committees.

12

saying that they don't want him on their (49:31)

13

committee because he don't show up for health and

14

services.

15

He don't show up for -- I mean, I'm going on three

16

committees that he's on.

He don't come.

17

come to the house floor.

So, he's got the worst

18

attendance on the house floor.

19

He's got bad attendance in his


And most people who are chairs are

He don't show up for children and youth.

He don't

He barely won his election in November.

He

20

only won by, I think, a hundred forty-six votes --

21

(inaudible) -- primary, primary, a hundred forty-six

42

votes.

And now they're investigating him (49:59)

(49:59)because they feel as though there's some

fraud even in that so they're investigating

him and --

TYRON ALI:

RON WATERS:

Because of the petitions, yeah.


Petitions.

There's a lot of shit

man.

And then he had sent a letter talking

about I'm resigning from the black caucus, people in

10

Philly said, that makes him that much more

11

vulnerable.

12

issues.

13

to be a part -- where else you going?

14

caucus are you going to that's going to be focused

15

on blacks and Latino and minority community issues?

16

There is no place else to go.

17

tried to start their own committee years ago,

18

something, something, African-Latino group -- and it -- it

19

didn't work.

20

either the caucus.

21

Perzel, but he couldnt do it [inaudible].

The black caucus deals with Latino

How dare you say you don't want (50:17)


What other

Rosita

They didn't have the support from


They were trying to do it with John

43

TYRON ALI:

You know, at the end of the day,

some folks who are in leadership, it's

(50:52) unfortunate, because they don't -- they

don't have the personality for it.

the tenets that other leaders kind of hold dear.

You know, this is -- this is a difficult time.

this requires a great deal of patience, a lot of

humility, and, to some extent, the ability to take

something simple and make it more effective and

They don't have

10

efficient.

11

it's extremely difficult to do that.

12

not be doing that at the risk of your (51:32)

13

constituents being sacrificed.

14

And

If you've never been trained to do that,


And you should

And with the legislative process the way

15

that it is now, because of the fact that the budget

16

is going to be what it is, there's going to be no

17

sacred cow in the pasture.

18

going to be looked at.

19

means tested, and that is a fact.

20
21

You know?

Everything's

Everything is going to be

When I sit down with my own colleagues and


we try to figure out, you know, how this is going to

44

work and when is it going to work and why is it

going to work, you come back to the same (52:03)

(52:03) thing.

This is -- this is -- I know that sounds a little

bit like Reaganomics, but it is what it is.

got to cut spending.

7
8
9
10
11

You've got to cut costs.

You know?

You've

You know?

Ron, who represents you?

Who's your

lobbyist up here?
RON WATERS:

Some people come to lobby me, but I

don't have, like, someone who lobbies for me.


TYRON ALI:

Somebody that provides you with a

12

fair amount of information based on (52:31)

13

whatever you might be voting on.

14

RON WATERS:

15

TYRON ALI:

Nobody.
Well, I'd like you to keep me in

16

mind for that spot, because I do as much -- I do

17

probably more research than most of the folks, because

18

I'm not lazy about it.

19

RON WATERS:

20

TYRON ALI:

21

seriously.

I can tell. Right.


You know, I take my job very

I always did.

45

RON WATERS:

TYRON ALI:

I can tell. I know that.


You know us Indian people, (52:50)

(52:50) man, we work like heck.

the only Indian -- well, there are two of us up

here.

RON WATERS:

TYRON ALI:

RON WATERS:

TYRON ALI:

RON WATERS:

14

TYRON ALI:

15

RON WATERS:

16

TYRON ALI:
from the Middle East.

18

RON WATERS:

19

TYRON ALI:

20
21

This guy named Amir -- I mean,

How did you get a name like Ali

It's a long story.

It's a long

story. (53:07)

13

17

Who's the other one?

and you're Indian?

11
12

And I'm

Hushmanda, some kind of name that I can't --

9
10

You know?

That is what I'm -- [Overtalking.]


[Overtalking.]
-- you're an Arab, man.
Actually, my mother's family is
My dad's from India.
Okay.
But it was good seeing you, as

always.
RON WATERS:

You, too.

46

I will call you on Friday.

RON WATERS:

TYRON ALI:

RON WATERS:

TYRON ALI:

RON WATERS:

TYRON ALI:

RON WATERS:

TYRON ALI:

All right. (53:25)


(53:25)

You been to the Sands?


No, no, no.
-- (inaudible) -Okay.
You met April, right?
No, no.

10

FERON WATERS:

11

TYRON ALI:

12

FERON WATERS:

13

RON WATERS:

14

TYRON ALI:

16

RON WATERS:

TYRON ALI:

19

RON WATERS:

21

Hi.

Hi.

Tyron Ali.

Nice to meet you.

Nice to meet you. (53:35)


I thought you met April before, as

I know.
All right.

April's my keeper

staff.

18

20

Hi.

many times as you've been up here.

15

17

Thank you, sir.

Very nice meeting you, April.


She's been with me from day one.

This is black caucus staff.


TYRON ALI:

This is Danielle.

Hi, Danielle.

47

Female 3:

RON WATERS:

never stay put.

4
5

Hi.
Where is -- this girl can

All right.

TYRON ALI:

This is Dave.

Hi, Dave.

Tyron Ali.

Nice to

meet you.

RON WATERS: Daves the executive director, and the

lady who is missing right here is our research

analyst.

9
10

Maybe she's out doing some research.


TYRON ALI:

FEMALE 4:

12

RON WATERS:

13

he is a good friend.

14

TYRON ALI:

Nice meeting you.


This is Brother Ali.

And, ah,

All right?
He doesn't like to use the L word.

I lobby.

16

RON WATERS:

17

TYRON ALI:

18

RON WATERS:

19

Nice

meeting you.

11

15

I'm sure I'll see you again.

He's a lobbyist.
All right, man.
We got some stuff coming up too, man,

-- so if like to help --

20

TYRON ALI:

21

RON WATERS:

Let me know.

Let me know.

We got our annual -- we got a

48

couple things.

4th.

We got the swearing in on January

TYRON ALI: Right.

RON WATERS:

And then we got the Afro-American

month celebration that happens every year on February

8th.

7
8
9

TYRON ALI:

Ron, whatever you need, just let

me know.
RON WATERS:

10

TYRON ALI:

11

RON WATERS:

12

TYRON ALI:

Alright.
Alright. Just let me know.
You got a card on you?
No, man.

Just call me on

13

my cell phone.

You know how it is.

14

though, I am going to be opening up, in the near

15

future, an office here in Harrisburg.

16

RON WATERS:

17

TYRON ALI:

18

RON WATERS:

19

TYRON ALI:

20
21

Good.
You know what I mean?
You should. You should.
You would come -- you don't smoke

cigars, do you?
RON WATERS:

At some point,

No.

49

TYRON ALI:

We got to encourage that.

RON WATERS:

I had my, like

-- (inaudible) -- and mostly when we were,

like, on trips, we would go, like, we was at, like,

cigar bars -- (inaudible).

6
7

TYRON ALI:
time.

Next time.

Yeah, yeah.

Of course.

There's a place here.

I'll call you Friday.

RON WATERS:

All right.

10

TYRON ALI:

11

RON WATERS:

12

TYRON ALI:

13

(Pause from 55:16 to 56:44).

14

TYRON ALI:

15

I'm leaving now.

Thanks.
Take care.
Bye-bye.

(55:16)

Hey there, sir.

Okay.

I can't -- yes,

Thanks.

16

(Pause from 56:57 to 1:02:30.

17

AGENT THOMAS:

18

Tape is now being

deactivated.

19

(Pause from 1:02:34 to 1:02:59)

20

AGENT THOMAS:

21

deactivated.

Next

Tape is now being

Time is 1250 hours.

50

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* * * * *

51

CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER

2
3

I hereby certify that the foregoing is a

true and accurate transcription of the recordings in

the aforementioned matter.

6
7

________________________

Brenda J. Pardun, RPR

Notary Public

10
11
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21

T-41 January 31, 2011

This is Claude Thomas, Senior Supervisory Special Agent,


Pennsylvania Office of Attorney General, badge number is 118, A
certification #A-1418. I am a Senior Supervisory Special Agent.
This device is being placed on CI-2010-01 in reference to
investigation number 36-622. Todays date is Monday, January
31, year 2011. Current time is 18:52 hundred hours. CI will be
meeting with RW within the confines of the city of Harrisburg,
county Dauphin County. This device will remain activated until I
deactivate it at a later time.
TA
SSSAT
RW
???

=
=
=
=

Consenting Party
Senior Supervisory Special Agent Claude Thomas
Ron Waters
Unknown

Start of Video Track #1 (T-41).


TA

Do you have the paper? The paper (U/I).

???

(U/I).

???

[2:44] How you doing sir?

TA

Hi. How are you?

???

Can I help you with anything?

TA

I, no, were good. Thank you.

???

(U/I).

???

(U/I).

TA

Ok. Alright. Thats fine. (U/I). Good evening.

???

Hi.

TA

Need a table for two please?

???

Ah hmm.

1 | Page

T-41 January 31, 2011

TA

Thanks. Back in the corner.

???

Do you want a booth or a table?

TA

Table.

???

Right here (U/I).

TA

Yeah thats fine. Thank you.

???

Welcome.

TA

Thanks.

???

(U/I).

TA

Certainly.

???

Are we expecting one more?

TA

Yes.

???

Then would you like anything else to drink while youre


waiting?

TA

Ah no. This is fine. Can I have another napkin though?

???

Absolutely.

TA

Thank you.

???

(U/I).

TA

[6:19] Thank you.


Coke?

???

A Diet Coke?

TA

Absolutely.

You know what can I have a Diet

2 | Page

T-41 January 31, 2011

TA

Thank you.

???

Youre welcome.

TA

Thank you.

???

No problem (U/I).
[Background conversations]

TA

[On the phone]


[21:42] Hey Ron. Everything ok?
Oh ok. I think I see you too. I think I see you too.
Alright.
How are you sir?

RW

Good. How you doing man?

TA

How you doing? Everything alright?

RW

Yes sir.

TA

Good to see you. Long day huh?

RW

(U/I) it wasnt that bad.

TA

Nice tie.

RW

Thank you.
I knew that you would be wearing
something nice, man (U/I). So how you been? You
alright?

TA

Good. Good

RW

(U/I).

TA

Good.

3 | Page

T-41 January 31, 2011

RW

You and your bowties, man.

TA

Yeah they tease.

RW

(U/I).

TA

They tease me. Good to see you.

RW

Ah you too.

TA

How did your ah Martin Luther King thing, how did that
come along?

RW

We didnt have it this year. They ahm, the hon, the hon,
the honoring people they (U/I).

TA

Ok.

RW

Yeah we skipped it. My staff was exhausted. They was


bugging me man, bugging me every year so what we
did, we decided to do some other community outreach
(U/I) we had to cancel last week because of the weather
ahm but they been well received by the community.
People just go nuts. Whats going on with this ahm
(U/I) energy, energy deregulation?

???

(U/I).

RW

Yeah. Can I get an Arnold Palmer?

???

An Arnold Palmer? Sure.

TA

Some of the ah, when you say that, that theyre being
well received.

RW

Yeah I mean people, people in the community coming


out to learn about (U/I) we had someone last week even
in spite of the bad weather people were still calling,
you still gonna have it?, they still wanted to come out
you know even though we had like snow last time. It
was scheduled for Thursday, we had the storm
4 | Page

T-41 January 31, 2011

Wednesday people still wanted to come out. Thats how,


Im like why people want to come out in this kind of
weather (U/I).
TA

[24:30] Ill tell you something with the economy the


way that it is, any cost cutting measures at all, people
are willing to embrace them.

RW

Its bad out. Its bad.

TA

But it was worse. It was worse.

RW

Some people. Even before coming here the guy called


me up and asked me could I find him a job. Theres
supposed to be a job fair tomorrow I believe at Valley
Forge (U/I).

TA

Yes.

RW

(U/I).

TA

At the Dolce ah Hotel.

RW

Yeah.

TA

Yeah.

RW

Im sure even in spite of the weather you will see


people still show up and rightfully so (U/I) food on the
table.

TA

You know Ill tell you something. Until the folks who
are graduating recognize that they are suppose to be
job creators as opposed to job seekers, nothings going
to change. Not right now.

RW

Yeah.

TA

See you guys need some boxing gloves in the House.

RW

[25:31] Ah you know. I was, I was looking forward to


5 | Page

T-41 January 31, 2011

coming back today. We werent suppose to be in today.


TA

Ah hmm.

RW

We were supposed to be in.


Well I got Tuesday,
Wednesday and Thursday.
Appropriations meeting
(U/I) long meetings like five hours each day and ah but
I, but Monday we were supposed to be off for the ahm.
We broke down last week (U/I). This stuff about (U/I)
they allowed the amendments to go forward. They say
ahm they put back off of that (U/I).

TA

Yeah committee.

RW

(U/I) they took a lot of heat off of that. Oh yeah.

TA

You guys need to mobilize.

RW

Yeah. Yeah.

TA

Mobilize. Re-energize.

RW

Yeah.

TA

But dont victimize.

RW

Oh no. We dont do that. We dont victimize. Thats the


other side. They (U/I). They believe in that man. (U/I).
who we are. (U/I). Here we are ahm. You know its
funny cause a lot of people told me that when I (U/I)
like the first thing I heard when I came in today. Hey
Rep. (U/I) ready to rumble (U/I).

TA

Yeah.

RW

(U/I).

TA

Ahm.

RW

(U/I).

6 | Page

T-41 January 31, 2011

TA

Whats your soup of the day?

???

It is black bean with smoked bacon.

TA

Alright. Let me have the ah clam chowder.

???

The clam chowder? Cup or a bowl?

TA

A bowls fine.

???

A bowl?

TA

Yeah. And I would like a ah you know what, he hasnt


really had time to look over the menu.

???

Ok. Ill give you.

TA

Can you give us a couple minutes.

???

Yeah.

TA

Thanks.
home.

RW

Yeah.

TA

So oh.

RW

(U/I).

TA

Did you see what was going on? I heard from one of
the, one of the reps she might have been in the middle.
She almost got knocked out.

RW

Really?

TA

You know the story changes.

RW

Yeah (U/I)

TA

(U/I).

Somebody called me at.

7 | Page

I was actually at

T-41 January 31, 2011

RW

There was nobody, wasnt nobody throwing punches


man. No, it didnt get that bad. It didnt get that bad.
People will exaggerate but ahm nah. But it, it was
heated. It was, it was very, very, very heated but ahm it
seems as if they backed off that and decided it aint
worth the heat they going to catch and ahm so
everything is back to normal.

TA

[28:28]
This is the first time the at least I can
remember in the last twenty, twenty five years where
you guys actually have six chairs.

RW

To who?

TA

Chairs.

RW

Who. Black Caucus?

TA

Yeah.

RW

Lets see. We got ahm.

TA

Roebuck, Louise.

RW

Roebuck, Louise, ahm Rosita.

TA

Ah hmm.

RW

Ahm Thomas.

TA

Ah hmm.

RW

And ahm who else do we have? Oh Myers.

TA

Ah hmm.

RW

Myers. Yeah. So we got six.

TA

Yeah.

8 | Page

T-41 January 31, 2011

RW

And, and we say Preston. That might be seven.

TA

Joe.

RW

Joe Preston. (U/I). We got (U/I), Preston. They been


chairs for awhile. Ahm (U/I) and Rosita, Myers (U/I) ahm
Thomas and Louise. Seven. Yeah.

TA

Seven huh.

RW

Seven.

TA

Thats even more than--

RW

Yeah.

TA

--I thought.

RW

Yeah. We got seven chairs. Yeah, out of twenty-one


members, one third of them, the caucus is chairs.

TA

[29:48] I was just, I was, I was sort of ahm (U/I).

RW

I didnt even see him today. (U/I) but you know hes
not on that committee anymore. Its Rosita, and I did
see her.

TA

Ah hmm.

RW

You know she, shes on there. Its Rosita and ah.

TA

Whos on which one?

RW

On the.

TA

No were talking about something else.

RW

Yeah.

TA

Alright.

9 | Page

T-41 January 31, 2011

RW

Im thinking about gaming. (U/I).

TA

Uh huh.

RW

No, hes on, but I didnt even see him today.

TA

Uh huh.

RW

[30:45] So what do you need to know from me?

TA

I need to know if you can, you know what I mean?

RW

Yeah.

TA

Make that transition to that liquor committee.

RW

Well the leader told me today that theyre working on


the, they waiting for the results of tomorrows election.
You know this is going to be a bad day to hold election
on.

TA

Ah hmm. Turnouts going to be very limited.

RW

I didnt even hear anybody whos talking about it at all.


You know so I mean I dont even know if people know
theres (U/I) election.

TA

(U/I). But I am glad that you are on appropriations.


Thats great.

RW

Some of those (U/I) fools are trying to get me off.

TA

Youre kidding me.

RW

Yeah. They wanted to (U/I) back up.

TA

Oh.

RW

So the other way around whatever, whoever, the chair


of the committee.

10 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

TA

Ah hmm.

RW

They get to put on there who they want to put on there


(U/I). Chair want me on there.

TA

Whos on there from Philadelphia delegation?


Start of Video Track #2 (T-41).

RW

Ah (U/I).

???

Have you guys decided now?

RW

Yeah. Yeah.

???

Alright.

RW

I was looking for onion soup. I didnt see that (U/I). Is


there any meat in here?

???

The baked (U/I) wrap? No. None at all.

RW

(U/I).

???

Ok.

RW

Ahm are you waiting for me to finish? Give me ah a


(U/I). Ill have a hmm (U/I).

???

Sure.

RW

(U/I).

???

And that comes with a salad. What kind of dressing


would you like?

RW

Ill have to have (U/I) no do you have a vinaigrette?

???

Raspberry or balsamic?

11 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

RW

Raspberry.

???

Yes. Alright. For you sir?

TA

Im going to make your life so easy.


exactly what hes having.

???

The exact same thing?

TA

Exact same thing.

???

Alright.

RW

Make it easy.

TA

Make it easy.

???

Ill put that in for you guys. And.

RW

Can we get more bread?

???

Yeah.

RW

(U/I).

TA

[1:25] From, from what I understand, everybody got


two of the five committee that they selected.
Unfortunately, in terms of the black caucus, you guys
really only have two well you got four positions on
anything thats really major. I mean Rositas budget is
not going to be nothing that. Its not going anything to
talk about. Louise because of the, split between health
and human services, she nor or John is going to have
anything to talk about. Youve only got Peyton on
transportation.
You, Cherelle and Jewell on
appropriations. This is, this is completely at least from
where I stand, looks like you guys have been
marginalized.

RW

Well thats part of our complaint. The media called me


today
from
Pittsburgh
about
the
committee
12 | P a g e

Im going to have

T-41 January 31, 2011

assignments about the fact that (U/I). That we didnt


have no one on Health and Human Services (U/I).
Nobody on Judiciary. Nobody on, ahm, any of us on
liquor control?
TA

No.

RW

No. None of us on liquor control.


thing.

TA

No.

RW

(U/I) when they got. I said none of us on judiciary and


then, then ah I said they packed us on health and
human services, not to say that thats not relevant to
our community but, but the other, the other committees
there are relevant to our community too. And he said
well you know you guys did lose a lot of people in your
Democratic Caucus. I said yes we did. Thats the only
reason why, I said no black people (U/I). We even
gained one.

TA

Right.

RW

He said oh really. I said thats true. So I said we dont


need five on one committee and none of the other. They
could have just split us up.

TA

[3:25] I dont ah I dont understand how this is going to


work because I dont, I just dont see how you can be
effective. I mean you got younger people who have no
idea where the resources are. You got guys like me
advising some folks on what you should, shouldnt do,
how you could move around. The problem is so the
money is now being appropriated by committee. Ahm
unfortunately you have no say. You know what I mean
so how do you intend, can you, can you combat that? I
mean you are on appropriations so maybe you might be
able to work something out but I cant see you getting
cooperation unless you are you know. Someone said to
me the other day Ron is such a gentle person. I said I
13 | P a g e

Thats the other

T-41 January 31, 2011

know. I dont know how hes going to ah be forceful


cause at the end of the day thats almost what you have
to be.
RW

Part of the problem is for us, in the Black Caucus, is


that, the other day when I had (U/I) committee
assignments because he did come at first very
aggressive.

TA

Ah hmm.

RW

[5:01] And but the caucus members wanted to come


out aggressive in a way where it didnt make sense.
You dont go to a gun fight with a knife, you know, and
thats what they was going for. So I had (U/I) and let
them know that we (U/I). Members wanted to argue
about (U/I). And that makes (U/I) they wanted to
boycott appropriations for that reason (U/I). How does
that make sense? So (U/I) but what came out of that
argument was the leadership was that (U/I) they dont
see the caucus as (U/I) speaking as one then that kind
of like makes us (U/I) in a frivolous way (U/I) really
accomplish a thing. So its not, its not necessarily that
they (U/I) as much as it is like how do we be successful.
Weve always been able to raise hell, but at the end of
the day (U/I) our thing is that we have to figure out how
do we pick the right argument, the one worthy of a fight
if were going to get leadership to respond to us (U/I)
makes sense and, and we all feel comfortable being
united behind it but (U/I) we got some people who act
like they were (U/I) the enemy. You know that (U/I).

TA

Well they are.

RW

Yeah. Ah hmm.

TA

Right?

RW

Ah hmm.

TA

We agree on that?
14 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

RW

Right.

TA

Ok. Look at me.

RW

Yes.

TA

Right.

RW

(U/I) but he, but he wrote a letter. You know he wrote a


letter saying that he is ahm he no longer wants to be a
member of the Black Caucus (U/I). Im gonna publish
the letter too.

TA

Do you think. Well let me, if you publish it.

RW

Ah hmm.

TA

What, what do you think the repercussions are going to


be?

RW

I dont care, for him maybe because that he wrote it.


(U/I) I mean he didnt hide it. He, he said it himself
(U/I). I mean he, he put it out there first. So (U/I) but,
but (U/I) came to me today and said why dont we
publish it? It really wasnt that important to me.

TA

Ah hmm.

RW

But he has.

TA

Thank you dear.

RW

But that was.

TA

Here you go.

RW

That was his decision. Ahm he represents African


Americans in the district so how does he go back to his
district and tell people--

15 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

TA

Thank you.

RW

That I dont want to be there (U/I).


(U/I).

TA

[8:36] Hmm. I will tell you this. Part of the back lash
that youre going to be facing eventually is not an issue.
Has to do with this little situation between Cruz and
(U/I).

RW

Who?

TA

Rosita.

RW

(U/I).

TA

Working in unison against you personally. I dont know


how you combat that.

RW

Those two working against us?

TA

Ah hmm.

RW

Well I dont want to get into a fight with Rosita (U/I). I


think that she can be a loose cannon (U/I). Its just the
kind of a person she is. (U/I) But shes also painted
herself to be like the victim. You got to be careful with
her. When she was doing stuff she did before she went
out and told the press, she was on TV and the radio a
lot, talking about how she was being punished for
voting for what she thought was in the best interest of
her constituents (U/I).

TA

Shes made her bed many years ago but can I say
something to you?

RW

Um hmm.

TA

[10:40] In New York, part of what works particularly in


the general assembly has to do with the ability of the
different caucus chairs being able to help finance some
16 | P a g e

Our by-laws said

T-41 January 31, 2011

of the efforts of their members, their caucus members.


Now I guarantee you if Rosita thought that you could be
helpful to her-RW

Um hmm.

TA

She wouldnt challenge you.

RW

Right.

TA

You know and Im not the only one that saying this. I
mean all guys who are lobbyists besides the fact that
were, were trying to figure out which way the wind is
going to blow in terms of this privatization in the liquor
stores. Beyond that, if you could create some unity and
you know less of the fragmented effort, it would be
helpful. I mean look we appropriated I dont know its,
its about ten thousand dollars per committee.

RW

Um hmm.

TA

Thats a little less than a hundred thousand dollars.


How many reps can raise a hundred thousand dollars?
Forget that. How many reps can raise ten thousand
dollars in twenty minutes?

RW

(laughing).

TA

You know what I mean. Its not going to happen.

RW

Right.

TA

Thats what made Dwight so damn successful.

RW

Made who?

TA

Dwight. Dwight.

RW

Oh yeah.

TA

You know.
17 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

RW

Yeah, but then he had (U/I).

TA

Yeah.

RW

(U/I).

TA

[12:27] But, but the thing is. Youre considered senior


member of the House. I mean even though the Rs have
much of the control, there is still room to negotiate if
you can provide a reason to them for having to
negotiate. You know. And, and one of the critical, one
of the critical pieces and I, I dont know how you, how
you get around it because I think its a little too early to
tell. But part of the concession has to be not just
whats right for the constituents today, but long term.
Lets look at this.
First of all, the leadership in
Pennsylvania is probably not going to change for the
next eight years.

RW

(U/I).

TA

Right.

RW

Ah hmm.

TA

Thats probably a given.

RW

Ah hmm.

TA

Beyond that, you got to figure out that you got such
young members in, in your caucus. Tony, Vanessa,
Michelle. When I say young in terms of time served.

RW

Ah hmm.

TA

You know. Youve really got to become that beacon of


hope you know and leadership is not a popularity
contest. You know, so you almost got to say to yourself
what do I want out of this on a week-by-week basis.

18 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

RW

Ah hmm.

TA

Because they dont know where the money is. Thats


number one. They dont know how to raise money.
And then they dont know anybody to help them raise
money. Your vice-chair doesnt even have a chief-ofstaff man.

RW

No.

TA

You know what I mean?

RW

Ah hmm.

TA

Thats, that is an incredible story and situation.

RW

She hasnt even had staff the whole term.

TA

And then three thousand dollars in fines. Thats


ridiculous.

RW

Thats how much her fines are?

TA

Yeah.

RW

Three thousand dollars in fines?

TA

Ah hmm.

RW

What for filing reports late (U/I)?

TA

[14:23] Ah hmm. I dont know item by item what the


ahm what the line items were but in terms of the
aggregate amount.

RW

Ah hmm.

TA

Its three grand. Thats between us. Right?

RW

Wow. Well I know last month she didnt get a paycheck


because she failed to file a report, that was due at the
19 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

end of November.
TA

Ah hmm.

RW

Then they charged her you know twenty dollars a day


she didnt get that done until almost the end of the
month. This month. So she just, she, shes (U/I). She
has a lot of issues, man.

TA

Thank you.

???

Now be careful not to touch the bowls. They are (U/I)


very hot.

TA

You know what. Can you take this?

???

Yes I can.

TA

Thank you. You want another one of those?

RW

Yeah.

TA

Arnold Palmer. You dont drink?

RW

(U/I).

TA

This is just a Diet Coke.

RW

(U/I).

TA

You know what. The place that we were going to more,


more as we come up here is ah the Firehouse.

RW

(U/I).

TA

Yeah.

RW

(U/I) down the street.

TA

Yeah. I like that place. I thought this was really nice


too. You know and its close. I figured you might be at
20 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

the Crowne. Its just across the street you know.


RW

Yeah (U/I).

TA

What do you think about, you think you could work


with her, or no?

RW

Who Rosita? Who Louise? (U/I). I mean her and I (U/I).


We hang out a lot (U/I) at different community stuff
(U/I).

TA

Yeah.

RW

(U/I).

TA

I hear the but.

RW

Yeah. Im not sure. Im not sure. Part of her problem is


that she comes across sometimes (U/I) demeanor about
her that turns people off. Talk down to people (U/I).
She respects me. I could work with her. I just got to
work with her (U/I). Just have to keep (U/I). You know
what though? Dwight always used to say, You got to
have money. You got to raise money. You got to have
money.

TA

[18:35] Can I tell you something?


aside a half a million dollars.

RW

Really?

TA

Um hmm.

RW

Wow.

TA

Im looking, ah, one, two, three hundred North Third


Street across the street from the Verizon Building.

RW

Um hmm.

TA

Were ready to set up shop.


21 | P a g e

Weve already put

T-41 January 31, 2011

RW

Hmm.

TA

You know. Cause Steve Wodjak and them theyre not


going to be able to do (U/I).

RW

No?

TA

No. (U/I). Not to that extent. But there are other


lobbying groups who are very, very ah connected.

RW

(U/I).

TA

Thats the word


relationships.

RW

I havent seen him up here lately.

TA

He was up here, he was up here last week.


were.

RW

I seen the girl that works for him. Holly?

TA

Holly Kunzler? Yeah.

RW

(U/I).

TA

[19:47] I just, I dont, I would like to help the caucus


members, but you know the truth is you, you almost
have to be like John the Baptist you got to be the voice
of one in the wilderness. You need to devise almost
like a 4-2-1 strategy. Four chairs you know constantly
communicating. Two people representing both sides of
the issues on behalf of the caucus and then you as the
leader in the back supporting the decision that comes
out of the caucus. I mean that in my opinion and I
mean excuse me, certainly youve been at this longer
than I have, but just from, just looking from outside in,
its too much strife, Ron. Too much like its no longer
there. The honey pots melted away. Theyre trying to
feed at the same trough that some of the other

for

it.

22 | P a g e

They

got

their

own

We both

T-41 January 31, 2011

democrats are feeding at. Thats not going to happen


and they certainly dont have the relationships like
some of the other Rs. You know even just outside of
Philadelphia. Take for example John Taylor. You know
what I mean.
They dont have those kinds of
relationships.
RW

Okay.

TA

I know Johns going to be the guy sort of rolling the


dice, figuring out whats the next move.

RW

Right.

TA

You know. Hows your relationship with him?

RW

Oh good. I always kept a good relationship with him.


Hes a reasonable guy (U/I). We both have so many
interests. (U/I).

TA

Ah hmm.

RW

(U/I) He has because John Perzel (U/I) become like the


main guy as far as ahm Vince Fenerty (U/I).

TA

Fenertys son is in a world of trouble I think.

RW

Is he?

TA

Something happened. This is a couple months ago


was on the phone with somebody and then ah.

RW

His son?

TA

Vince. Yeah. Yeah.

RW

I didnt know he had a son.

TA

[22:05] Yeah. I dont know ah what the situation is. I


mean things that dont concern me, I, Ill, I swear to God
I try not to even listen.
23 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

RW

Yeah.

TA

You know. Its too much. You know. Im trying to keep


our focus. The other thing is this.

RW

Ah hmm.

TA

How the hell did Peyton wind up on transportation?

RW

I dont know. I think ahm (U/I).

TA

Youre on professional licensure. Right?

RW

(U/I).

TA

Yeah.

RW

(U/I).

TA

Ah hmm.

RW

(U/I) that and appropriations.

TA

Can I tell you something?

RW

Ah hmm.

TA

He voted for Dermody?

RW

(U/I).

TA

Im telling you.

RW

(U/I).

TA

Ron look. Our job is to know what, whats going on.

RW

Right.

TA

Right?
24 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

RW

(U/I).

TA

He voted for him. That is going to be one of the three


(U/I).

RW

Yeah but he was ahm, he was ahm, Dermody ran under,


unopposed right? You mean (U/I).

TA

No. Check your records. Tell him you voted for him. I
dont know if you could even.

RW

(U/I).

TA

I dont even know if, if they would disclose that.

RW

Ah hmm.

TA

But Im telling you, he voted for him.

RW

(U/I).

TA

You know my information is usually right on point.

RW

Yeah. So what is your relationship with Tony?

TA

[23:54]
You know what, Im going to tell you
something. When he first came out, right, Maliks son
called me and he was like yo, Ty. This kid is coming
out of Frankford man, hes just like he needs some
help. He needs some money. But I was not really first
of all I didnt know who he was.

RW

Ah hmm.

TA

Or where he came from. I knew he had a relationship


with Seth. I mean Seth and I use to smoke cigars
together you know what I mean. I, he knows me, I know
him you know what I mean.

RW

Right.
25 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

TA

But I dont, Im, Im telling you eventually Tonys going


to be become an integral part of your caucus. Hes not
going anywhere. You know Marias been trying to
knock him off. Its not going to work.

RW

Right.

TA

That young fellow who hes got as his chief of staff.

RW

Ah hmm.

TA

For his (U/I).

RW

Ah hmm.

TA

He may try to usurp Tonys fire but thats not going to


happen either.

RW

Ah hmm.

TA

You know.

RW

Well do you think Maria (U/I).

TA

Ah hmm.

RW

His fight has always been with Tina Tartaglione (U/I).

TA

Well remember her most recent fight was with Marnie


Almonte.

RW

Ok.

TA

You know.

RW

Yeah. Tony, he was just a lucky guy. He did come out


of nowhere. Ahm and he won because the other two
guys was fighting each other they werent even paying
attention to him.

26 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

TA

Ah hmm.

RW

(U/I) he cant beat us. They knocked each other out and
left him standing. Bingo, he wins by default.

TA

[25:43] Look the guy that, that we were trying to talk


to, have a conversation with, turns out its not going to
be necessary cause he cant you know, Kenyatta
Johnson.

RW

Yeah.

TA

No go.

RW

Yeah.

TA

Leave that alone.

RW

Yeah.

RW

But he might, hes supposed to be running for council,


right?

TA

Ah the word on the street is that he is, but the problem


is not him, its his chief of staff (U/I), the problem.

RW

Oh big time. (U/I) crazy. Is he still on his staff?

TA

As far as I know.

RW

(U/I).

TA

I havent checked recently.

RW

(U/I) you know hes got a bad history with them two.
But thats (U/I).

TA

That, thats you know, and the other thing now do, well
word, I dont, I dont know if ah I dont know how long,
how Jewell is going to fair with this situation that is
very, very difficult to avert the sheriffs office. I dont
27 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

think its wise to try to even make that move you know.
RW

Yeah. (U/I) but the mayor, the mayor of Philadelphia


(U/I), the mayor has no (U/I). He wants that. He dont
want ah, he dont want ah let it go to elections. He
wants (U/I) and he might be able to get away with it
(U/I).

TA

DWRT.

RW

And the thing about that.

TA

Well you know (U/I) relief, it had nothing to do with


vote. It had to do with Carl Singley.

RW

Hmm.

TA

[28:21] Singley, the, the contract went out to bid right.


The contract is eight million dollars. Multi-million
dollar contract.

RW

Right.

TA

So Singley is actually representing the ah GC prior to


the new bid. And then they accused one of the guys in
the finance department of bid rigging but you know
who Carl Singley is man. He will say whatever is
necessary to get his point across. I mean you know you
dont get to be the dean of the law school for no reason.
You know what youre doing.

RW

Right. Right. Right.

TA

You know.

RW

Right.

TA

The City of Philadelphia will take care of itself because


Nutters got guys who run (U/I) foundation. Hes got
Doris Hamilton, hes got a bunch of heavy hitters.
28 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

RW

Ah hmm.

TA

You know and, and the truth is, ah people like him you
know. They do not see him as a conniving underhanded person who will not keep your word. They see
him as someone who is sincere. And the state house
has to almost take care of itself because again you know
its like were looking at John (U/I).
What could he
possibly do in that role? Zero. The only people who will
have some --

???

Your food will be up very shortly.

TA

Thank you dear.


Who will have some kind of
maneuverability are the folks on appropriations.

RW

Right.

TA

Thats it. Because at least you have the option to


oppose and youve got the option to support.

RW

Right.

TA

[30:14] You support enough. Then you get to pick one.


I mean if you guys again can form some kind of unison
in, in your voice and I cant see it, I cant see you,
Jewell, and Cherelle doing that. I just cant because
look at where shes coming from.

RW

Yeah.

TA

The man walked her down the aisle.


upset.

RW

Yeah.

TA

You know what I mean.

RW

Shes the one that was screaming to (U/I).

29 | P a g e

Shes already

T-41 January 31, 2011

TA

Well hes onto other things.

RW

Really.

TA

You know. Ahm a couple people are speculating what


that may be. Ahm but I think he felt very, very, I dont
want to use the word embarrassed, but I think the word
is slighted, when they type up his name and just stuck
it on the door. I mean that seemed sort of out of place
and, and.

RW

What, on the new office?

TA

Yeah, on the new office. Yeah. You know.

RW

You ever go inside of his office for a meeting?

TA

Ah hmm. Huge.

RW

Huge man. (U/I).

TA

Do you know what his office (U/I).

RW

(U/I). I heard of seven million dollars. Wasnt it?

TA

Little bit more.


office.

RW

(U/I).

TA

You know what I mean.

RW

Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well that was in the paper. (U/I).

TA

[33:02] So Ive been told.


Im going to tell you
something else. Part of being in the leadership position
that you are in now, in order to look after your lambs,
so to speak, you have to be able to look after yourself.
You know what I mean. I dont, and, and part of that
looking after yourself is identifying who you can work
with. You know? I feel, Ill, Ill tell you something, I

He had two point two just for one

30 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

was, we were out last week because Im, Im pretty sure


that tomorrow is the first, probably by the third week of
February, we should have our office maybe third week,
maybe the end of the month and the piece that Im
trying to figure out is, ok so weve got, we got six chairs
right?
RW

Seven.

TA

Seven, but we only work, we only do care about six.

RW

Ok.

TA

Um, you know. Chester boys not one of our people.

RW

Ok.

TA

You see what Im saying?

RW

Yeah.

TA

Alright so for our, for our purpose, we have six.

RW

Ok.

TA

I mean he could be you know it, it depends. I dont


really, I mean, I have some people who know him who
like him. If I need that route, that, that road opened up,
it, its fine. Its like: how can we appropriate ten
thousand dollars a committee? Who can we sort of
reach out to? And, and honestly, the first person I
thought about was you cause I dont trust some joker. I
dont.

RW

Okay. Alright.

TA

I shouldnt say that. But, but thats how I feel. Because


they dont understand this. They dont understand
that.

RW

Right.
31 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

TA

You know what I mean? When you say something, just


do it.

RW

Um hmm.

TA

I dont want to hear fifty million excuses.

RW

Let me know how, you know, I can be of, how I can be


helpful.
You know, um, I just got a look at the
members, look at the leadership. You know leadership
is always supposed to be able to devise a solution. Part
of being a leader.

TA

Besides, besides, um, I guess it would be -- Tony didnt


raise that much right? (U/I).

RW

(U/I).

TA

(U/I). How much did he (U/I)?

RW

Last time (U/I)?


He doesnt have, I mean he has
fundraisers, but to get you a total amount that he raised
(U/I).

TA

If you could work with three, lets divide it by fifty


percent. If you could pick three of the chairs that you
could work with, who? Louise?

RW

Louise. Absolutely her. Um, well, you know who I want


to work with? I want to work with, um, you talking
about like as a caucus, Black Caucus?

TA

Yeah.

RW

I really would like to work with (U/I), I would like to


work with Rosita. I think she is, shes gonna need
protection because they getting ready to come after
her-- [36:50]

TA

Whos getting ready to come after her?


32 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

RW

(U/I) Meehan, (U/I) Jewell claims that Dwight, and I


dont even think hes (U/I). He said four people (U/I)
are going to come after her in the next election. [37:34]

TA

Believe it. Because those names are very familiar.


Those are the folks who voted against him.

RW

Oh. Brian nominated (U/I). Curtis Thomas. He said he


saw Rosita (U/I).

TA

[38:13] Im going to tell you why. And, and whether


she did or not is almost ahm, its almost one of those
things that simply doesnt matter. Look at what she
had in terms of committees. Look at the assignments
and then look at the budget that she had. Shes been
there for a long time.

RW

Oh yeah. (U/I).

TA

You know. He never really treated her and a couple of


other people with respect. I mean theres no other
word for it. You know. A, again, theres you know
sometimes you and, and our guys. We talk among
ourselves all the time. If you said to me, these are the
three people that I want you guys to work with, I just
want some kind of assurance that Wodjac if hes steps
in and says hey Ron you know we want to work with
you. I mean I was here first. Thats number one.

RW

Right.

TA

Number two I think you know me better than, than


Steve.

RW

Right.

TA

And the other piece of this I dont want somebody just


you know muscling in. Because we will bring, I can
bring resources but its like do I have your word that
were not going to get into a place where were
33 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

marginalized.
You know cause my guys are from
Trinidad man. They dont know anything about this
stuff. They got someone theyre trying to make some
things work you know, trying to look at some other
opportunities you know.
???

Be careful. The bowls are very hot. They can be.

TA

Thank you.

???

(U/I).

TA

Thank you.

RW

(U/I).

TA

Yeah. Food here is actually pretty decent.

RW

Yeah. (U/I). Steve is working with the, ahm, (U/I).

TA

Not that I know of, that Im aware of.

RW

(U/I).

TA

Health care. Hes got a lot of the health care contracts.

RW

(U/I).

TA

Im sorry?

RW

How involved is he with the state taking over, I mean


not the state, the state selling the liquor stores?

TA

[40:36] I dont, I dont believe that ah that he is


involved. And if he is, you know they kept that under
wraps. As I told you before, you listen to all of the
gossip, it gets to be too much. You know. Cause if I tell
you something, (U/I).

RW

(U/I).

34 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

TA

Wheres he going to get all of her juice from now?

RW

(U/I).
Start of Video Track #3 (T-41).

TA

And that girl (U/I). Shes damaged goods.


Thats
DeWeeses wife (U/I). Thats my only concern is that. I
dont mind working with Louise. Who else did you say?
Louise?

RW

Louise. Maybe ahm ah how about Curtis?

TA

Thomas?

RW

(U/I).

TA

Ok.

RW

(U/I). I talk to him a lot.

TA

Ah hmm.

RW

Yeah.
(U/I).

TA

Hmm.

RW

(U/I). But a lot of other people like (U/I) but hes off a
lot. Hes kind of (U/I).

TA

John.

RW

Yeah. He claims this is his last term though.

TA

Yeah.

RW

Who else we got, Curtis? You dont like (U/I).

TA

[1:46] Its not, its not, no, no, no, no, no. Its not like,

I feel as though he knows things.

35 | P a g e

He can go

T-41 January 31, 2011

its just where hes situated.


RW

Ok.

TA

Now if you want to work with him, Ill work with him.
You know.

RW

He may need the help too.

???

How is everything?

TA

Good.

???

Wonderful.

TA

Thank you.
man.

RW

Ah hmm.

TA

And he cant do anything without Pileggis say so


anyhow.

RW

No he cant (U/I).

TA

You know what I mean? But if you want to reach out to


him on the (U/I) I mean Ill help that. Ill help you.

RW

Right.

TA

You know. Cause hes been there a long time.

RW

Oh yeah.

TA

And he will forever be a chair. You know. Plus he


doesnt upset the balance. You know. Hes a preacher
too wasnt he?

RW

Hes a preacher.

TA

Yeah.

Its just the fact that hes out of Chester

36 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

RW

And hes been there for me you know.

TA

Ok.

RW

He was black caucus chair before me. He gave me


advice (U/I) on what to be careful about, and he always
respected, you know (U/I).

TA

[2:59] And if you have to put one of those chairs on


reserve, who, who would you pick as number four?

RW

Reserve, probably Preston.

TA

Joe. Now what committee is he in.

RW

(U/I).

TA

How could that be helpful to us?

RW

(U/I) What committees (U/I).

TA

Appropriations.

RW

(U/I).

TA

Banking.

RW

(U/I).

TA

Professional licensure.

RW

(U/I).

TA

You guys dont have anybody on the judiciary.

RW

But thats not over were gonna get somebody on there.

TA

Ok. But the, the name of the game is will they listen to
you. You know what I mean.

37 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

RW

They did when I was on there.

TA

Ok.

RW

(U/I) for a whole two years.

TA

Ok.

RW

Oh yeah..

TA

Now that would be helpful.

RW

Yeah. Did you hear it?

TA

Yes.

RW

We gonna get somebody over there. It might be me,


because everybody says I should be doing (U/I).

TA

You should be. You were there.

RW

Yeah (U/I). I might get that back, but I dont want it


back if it means I cant have appropriations.

TA

Right, of course.

RW

They considered that as a promise to the committee.

TA

Sure. [4:56]

RW

So I want it back. I want that.


committees I was in before.

TA

Ah hmm.

RW

Well I know its selfish (U/I).

TA

Not really if you know what youre doing. Whys that


selfish.

RW

(U/I).
38 | P a g e

I really want all the

T-41 January 31, 2011

TA

You know what youre doing.

RW

(U/I).

TA

Right.

RW

Cause ahm I might, I might get judiciary (U/I).

TA

[5:38] Now Im going to tell you something. If you


could find it possible to steer your efforts to the liquor
committee.

RW

Um hmm.

TA

Thats the one. I mean the judiciary is also helpful, but


if we absolutely had to pick one, it would be liquor.

RW

And theres no blacks on there at all.

TA

None. The other piece of this. I dont understand why


and, and maybe you can help me with this. Most of the
foreclosures that are taken place in Philly.

RW

Right.

TA

Are for black folks right?

RW

(U/I).

TA

How come nobodys on banking? What is that?

RW

(U/I) I dont think nobody tried to get on it (U/I).

TA

But it almost seems and I mean Ive thought this for a


long time. It seems like the committees are segregated.

RW

It is segregated but (U/I) how do we get respect, how


(U/I) get together (U/I) be against something (U/I).
Whatever it is. (U/I) when something bad happens.
(U/I). Four members were there. (U/I) and spoke. The
39 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

mayor came from the city of Philadelphia and spoke.


TA

Who.

RW

(U/I).

TA

Im curious. Go ahead. Im sorry.

RW

And we want to talk about getting something done.


(U/I) when they come and dont see (U/I) it would have
been a great time (U/I). They need us. They need the
Black Caucus (U/I).

TA

[10:02] Let me say this to you about that. Your guys


really need to try to come together. Find one or two
issues make sense that are timely. And that you can get
financial support for. In other words it cant be
homelessness right?

RW

Ah hmm.

TA

It cant be that. It has to be something that makes good


financial sense. It has to be. And it cant be better
roads, and it cant be, it cant be anything in the
abstract. Do you follow what Im saying? I mean it
cant be anything to do with education either because
most of the stuff, most of the, the, the, the issue with
education not going to be you know improvements,
theyre going to be cuts. So you, you dont want to pick
something that is unpopular by default. You dont want
that. Mothers against drunk driving there is no money
(U/I). There is a lot of empathy, a lot of sympathy but
theres no money for that. As a matter of fact you will
find that seven out of ten causes a lot of sympathy, lots
of empathy, doesnt make good financial sense.

RW

(U/I).

TA

This is, this is. Go ahead.

RW

The game (U/I).


40 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

TA

[11:57] Let me just talk about the privatization of the


liquor stores first. We could lobby the manufacturers
(U/I) to create a fund that allows for that, that consumer
education. Anybody whos on the consumer affairs
committee can handle that. You know. Besides that

RW

Thats Joe Preston.

TA

Ok. We got to, you know, you know what it is too. You
and I got to meet a little bit more frequently because
were ready to give. Its just what are we giving for.

RW

Ok.

TA

You know what I mean? Ive got them. You know what I
mean?

RW

Okay.

TA

Ive got them. Its no issue. Its just how can we, what,
ok so we, we look at consumer education, right? We get
some, some, some effort behind it. And then we look at
maybe one or two in the next week that makes sense
and then well try to do something with that. And each
time you know well just, just make sure that who you
decide to work with is somebody you can work with.
You know what I mean? I mean really work with and if
theyre not going to constantly question (U/I).

RW

You say a chair or a member?

TA

I would prefer a chair simply because of status, but if


its a member and were trying to create some debt then
a member works just as fine, you know?

RW

(U/I) Definitely Louise, and probably Curtis. Right off


the top of my head.

TA

Ok. [13:52].

41 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

RW

(U/I) but he does do his homework.

TA

Well hes a lawyer. Hes going to do his homework you


know.

RW

(U/I). I see his potential, and he hasnt burnt me.

TA

Ah hmm.

RW

You know and ahm to my knowledge (U/I).

TA

[16:31] Ill tell you what our thoughts are on him. Hes
not a great communicator. Hes not a great facilitator.

RW

Right.

TA

But he is action-oriented.

RW

Yeah.

TA

You know.

RW

(U/I). And I dont think hes a great motivator because


when I look at the streets (U/I) since hes been mayor, I
dont think the people, I dont think (U/I). I dont think
people respond to him (U/I).
Video Ends. Switch back to Audio Tape #40.

TA

[1:30:05] People, people see him in the light of hes a


little heart but at the end of the day, I trust him to do
the thing thats right by me as well.

RW

Yeah.

TA

And, and, and, and thats saying more. You know Ron,
you have a lot of Philadelphia relationships man. I had
no idea you came up from (U/I) too.

RW

Yeah man. Eastern Shore.

42 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

TA

Yeah.

RW

Yeah. Yeah.

TA

A lot of relationships.

RW

Yeah.

TA

You know.

RW

Yeah.

TA

So, so being able to sort of engage or caucus, I mean, I,


I, yesterday, the day, not yesterday Im sorry. Friday,
Thursday, Tuesday of last week, I went about meeting
with so many folks. Again these are not Philadelphia
folks, these are folks who are migrating to the United
States. Things are changing in Trinidad. And so, not
only re we able to pull resources from home, but were
able now to pull resources from the folks who migrated
before this set of folks.

RW

Hmm.

TA

You know what I mean? And it took me twelve years to


be in this position but nobody questions when I tell
them I need x, thats real, its not ah a situation where
theyll say oh well you know we dont agree with this.
No I run (U/I), but for all intent and purposes-- sure why
not. Some coffee at least.

???

Coffee?

TA

Yeah.

???

Ok.

TA

Would, do you have cappuccino?

???

Cappuccino? Yes.
43 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

TA

You want one drink for the road man? You want a
drink? Enjoy yourself. What do you want?

RW

A drink of what?

TA

Whatever you like. Im sure shell facilitate that.

RW

Do you have wine?

???

Wine?

RW

Yeah, you do have wine over here.

???

Ok.

RW

Yeah.

???

Coffee for you?

TA

Ahm no Ill have a glass as well.

???

(U/I).

RW

(U/I).

???

(U/I).

TA

[1:32:28] Why not. I never get to have dinner with him


so sure. (U/I) the packet itself, I mean, I dont know
how many guys at least now can really put anything
together. Number one, its too difficult and number
two, everybodys broke. So unless you have ahm the
ability to kind of reach out to folks who are recent
migrants, theyre coming here with some money or
theyve been here and they have grown some of their
resources (U/I) college. They got a professional license
like accounting or something like that.

???

(U/I).

44 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

TA

Thank you dear. If you can get any of those folks on,
an accountant, a lawyer, a doctor, all those things are
very helpful. But its far and few between.

RW

Yeah.

TA

What you will find are a lot of business people. People


who have, Im telling you something. Like in your
neighborhood, you dont have a lot of Pakistani people
but in South Philadelphia, there are a lot of Pakistani
people. And guess what? They all own their own
business. Everybody. You know what I mean?

RW

South Philly?

TA

Yeah. They rent those garages.

RW

Right.

TA

They all have those food carts or those food trucks.

RW

Right.

TA

A carts making three or four hundred dollars a day.


They have trucks making about seven or eight. Do the
math. These guys speak no English. Theyre trying like
hell to stay off the radar.

RW

Right.

TA

[1:34:18] They dont have ah resources to learn to


speak English and that kind of stuff. They only thing
that they have are guys like me whove been here for
twenty something years.

RW

Yeah.

TA

And can sort of teach them the ropes.

???

Have a wonderful day guys.

45 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

RW

Thanks you too.

TA

Thank you dear.

???

Would you like to try one of these (U/I).

TA

Ahm.

RW

(U/I).

???

Do you need a few more minutes?

RW

(U/I). Ill have the vanilla ice cream.

???

Ice cream? Vanilla or chocolate?

RW

Vanilla.

???

Ok.

TA

Let me have the ahm the tiramisu.

???

Tiramisu?

TA

Yes.

???

Alright.

TA

How is it dear? Good?

???

Its really good.

TA

Ok.

???

Its made fresh.

TA

Ok. Well chair, heres to you.

RW

Yeah man.

TA

And a great year.


46 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

RW

Yeah.

TA

Successful year.

RW

(U/I) I got two more years to be in this position (U/I).

TA

What would you do?

RW

I dont know.

TA

You talking about leaving the House?

RW

No.

TA

Oh.

RW

(U/I) to have me leave to run for that city council seat,


but Im looking for something bigger here (U/I).

TA

Stay here. Dont go down there. Philadelphia is a war


zone.

RW

Yeah.

TA

You know this whole thing with Cindy Bass, this is


going to become a mess. Then you got Marion looking
at Jamie cross-eyed again you know. Its too much.
They, they, they were talking about pushing Cherelle
into Donnas seat. That will never happen. Not going
to happen. Number one thats not even her district.

RW

No, no, shed have to move. Shed have to move.

TA

Then theres you know.

RW

(U/I).

TA

And then the situation with Jewell.

RW

Yeah.
47 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

TA

(U/I).

RW

I dont know if hes going to commit (U/I) I dont think


its going to happen.

TA

I think a lot of people wasted their money.

RW

Ah hmm.

TA

[1:36:20] Because he and this is between us ok? He had


a situation going on with some Korean folks from the
Asian Federation. I was on that board.

RW

Ah hmm.

TA

Ah things didnt pan out.

RW

Ah hmm.

TA

Some folks are out some money.

RW

Yeah. Yeah.

TA

Thats Jewell.

RW

Yeah.

TA

You know. For better or worse.

RW

Yeah.

TA

Thats Jewell. He says things before they happen.

RW

Yeah.

TA

Thats the problem.

RW

Yeah.

TA

Cause people dont like that.


48 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

RW

Ah hmm.

TA

You know what Im talking about.

RW

But he, but he cant keep stuff to himself.

TA

Well you see its like this. The parking authority was
very, very important for a very long time. So when
Clarisse got jammed she just ran. That would have
been a great platform for him but he chose to leave it
alone because of his own misdeeds.

RW

Ah hmm.

TA

And thats ok. Jewell you know he pushed it so many


directions so quickly and people see him as somebody
thats not focused. Look at the Earline (U/I) situation.
You know she dont need to be no traffic court.

RW

(U/I).

TA

Come on man. You know Earline does.

RW

(U/I) rehab.

TA

Nose candy. Tick tock. Tick tock.

RW

Yeah.

TA

What time is it? Can I go out?

RW

(U/I).

TA

[1:38:02] I dont know for the life of me and I met her


daughter. Shes a very, very smart young woman. Um,
but unfortunately you know, we, we get these folks in
there and, and we trust the folks who put them in there.
You know. Its, its this whole traffic court situation,
parking authority situation, Im going to tell you
something. The clerk of quarter sessions has millions
49 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

of dollars thats owed to the city of Philadelphia. Its


money that cannot be collected.
RW

Right.

TA

Alright.

RW

Thank you.

TA

Thank you so much dear.

???

Do you guys need anything else right now?

RW

Nah. I dont.

TA

Do you want a cup of coffee for afterwards?

RW

No. No. Yeah. Yeah. Ok.

TA

I think after were done this, well probably.

???

Ok.

TA

A cup of coffee. Thank you. Thank you dear. So the


clerk of quarter sessions has millions of dollars thats
owed. Right. But its uncollectable.

RW

Yeah.

TA

Vivian Miller didnt do jack about it.


happen.

RW

Yeah.

TA

The other piece is this. Do you know how much money


is owed? You use to work there. The parking authority
has the actual ticket, they have the ticket with the
interest and the penalty and then they got the actual
charge (U/I).

RW

Right.
50 | P a g e

She just let it

T-41 January 31, 2011

TA

Ticket, interest, penalty and collection.

RW

Um hmm.

TA

Then you got the boot and tows.

RW

Um hmm.

TA

I mean there are five or six categories that you can


actually isolate. Pick one and say ok this is what I want
to have happen. This is the number of dollars we think
that are truly collectable and these are the resources
that were going to look at in order to help bring in
some revenue into the City of Philadelphia. Now why
isnt anyone looking at that?

RW

I dont know.

TA

You want me to tell you why? Cause Maria calls this


Puerto Rican guy named Michael Munoz. He owns this
company on, on Torresdale Avenue. Its called Revenue
Collections Bureau. See the Puerto Ricans man they
take care of themselves.

RW

Right. (U/I).

TA

Yeah. Sold the house.

RW

Hmm.

TA

And rolled.

RW

(U/I).

TA

Ah.

RW

(U/I).

TA

(Laughs). Is she anybodys tight friend.

51 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

RW

(U/I).

TA

[1:40:48] Hes actually a pretty nice guy.

RW

Ah hmm. (U/I).

TA

Ah hmm.

RW

I knew her when were growing up. (U/I).

???

How was the pie?

TA

Good.

???

(U/I).

RW

Ice cream is very good. (U/I). She got stupid man. She
cant ask for a recommendation (U/I).

TA

Ah ha.

RW

(U/I).

TA

You know why.

RW

(U/I).

TA

Come on now.

RW

Yeah.

TA

You know why.

RW

(U/I).

TA

Every time.

RW

Every time.

TA

Every time.

52 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

RW

(U/I).

TA

[1:42:33] Ah hmm. Ill tell you something. Jewell is


one of those guys he will cut the deal.

RW

Yeah.

TA

And seal the deal.

RW

Yeah.

TA

You will not know it.

RW

Yeah.

TA

One thing I have to give to him, hes slick. You know.

RW

(U/I).

TA

I told him one day. I was sitting down outside. We were


all just hanging out at my friends restaurant and I said
to him, I said Jay, watch what youre doing man
because you got this Korean boy and youre talking a
bunch of shit. You know what I mean.

RW

Yeah.

TA

And he was like I have no idea what youre talking


about. I said Jewell. Come on man this me youre
talking to.

RW

Right.

TA

What do you think I do all day.

RW

Yeah.

TA

You know what I mean.

RW

I know that you worked with those Koreans (U/I).

53 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

TA

Ah hmm.

RW

(U/I) Pay day loans. He was involved with that. (U/I).

TA

Hmm.

RW

(U/I) I know he fought for the Stop and Gos. He went


against me when I was trying to stop the bad behavior
with them. He went against me on the radio saying
nobody gonna stop them. You know what I mean? (U/I).

TA

Well the other thing is this right. They do not keep the
surroundings of those establishments even remotely
clean. Its ridiculous.

RW

(U/I).

TA

Right.

RW

(U/I).

TA

Were you ever on Education?

RW

Uh uh.

TA

Never huh?

RW

No never done that.

TA

Roebuck gets a lot of money.

RW

(U/I).

TA

[1:44:54] Jewell is trying to get ah oh my god. Theres


an Indian guy who owns a restaurant in Center City.
Hes trying to get some money from the guy right.

RW

Ah hmm.

TA

This is just between us.

54 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

RW

Ah hmm.

TA

The guy told him no. He started creating all kinds of


problems for him.

RW

Did he?

TA

Yeah. Guy called me up and he was like Ty come on


man.

RW

Yeah. Like a shake down.

TA

Ah hmm. Exactly a shake down.

RW

Thats what he does man. Thats what he does.

TA

He was trying to get money from the daycare centers.


That didnt work.

RW

Yeah.

TA

Jewell can only victimize people who dont, you ok?

RW

Yeah (U/I).

TA

Uh oh. Excuse me dear.

???

Yes.

RW

(U/I).

TA

There is. We need anoth, another glass.

RW

(U/I) flying around.

???

Ok.

TA

Another glass.

???

Absolutely.

55 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

TA

Thank you.

RW

Yeah so he had, um, I used to be with him a lot (U/I).

TA

He is old.

RW

Hes old. (U/I).

TA

Thank you.

RW

(U/I).

TA

[1:47:11] Im going to tell you something.


start, hes going to start wondering because.

RW

He already has.

TA

Whatd he say?

RW

He was tellin me, you got to be careful with this guy,


hes under investigation.

TA

Did he know that the case was already over?

RW

No.

TA

Jewells got to get his facts straight man.

RW

It dont matter.

TA

You know what I mean.

RW

He needs to get his facts together. He never waits to


get his facts together. He just want to say what he
wants to say when he wants to say it, and how he wants
to say it (U/I).

TA

Ron, can I
long time.
get vetted
who it is,

Once we

tell you something? Ive known you for a


Youve known me for a long time. When you
by any governmental agency, I dont care
and you have your license back, that only
56 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

says two things: one, you have your license, and two
clearly what they were checking out didnt check out.
RW

Ah hmm.

TA

You know what I mean. I went to Jewell and I said


Jewell I said listen. I, I put up three hundred thousand
dollars for this building in his neighborhood. This is
when he and I really got into a falling out. I said Jewell,
can you help us with a grant, man. He said, Ty, yeah
man no problem. Now it has twenty collection stations
upstairs. Desks, chairs, phones, that kind of stuff. And
then downstairs, I put a little law office.

RW

Yeah.

TA

I put it as a conference area in the, in the lower level. I


said listen, all we really need is probably fifty grand.
You know what he said to me.

RW

(U/I).

TA

It will cost you fifteen.

RW

He did?

TA

I said it will cost me what? I said Jewell Im just trying


to put in a neighborhood legal clinic man. This is your
neighborhood. You know that place was a heroin den.

RW

Right.

TA

You know where Im talking about. Twentieth and


Cambria. Right around from the, from where the ah the
Philabundance place is on Lehigh Avenue.
Mark
Niccoletti (sp?) just bought a whole bunch of stuff over
there. He was like fifty will cost you fifteen. I said
Jewell I didnt ask you the price. I asked you if you
would help me.

RW

What he want to do put 15 in his campaign.


57 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

TA

Yeah.

RW

(U/I).

TA

Yeah. And the thing about it is Ron honestly I, if I was


stuck, I probably would have done it.

RW

Right.

TA

But the truth is I wasnt stuck.

RW

Right.

TA

[1:50:17] You know what I mean. At the end of the day


look, some of, some of the neighbors came to me and
they were like if we could use it like an alcohol
anonymous place, Im looking for an attorney now that
we could put in there. You know. Money is not the
issue man. You know. Its not the issue. Can we please
do something together that makes good sense for
everybody involved.

RW

(U/I).

TA

Its just how he does it.

RW

(U/I).

TA

You know what I mean. Oh my god.

RW

He dont care. (U/I).

TA

Jewell is one of those guys clearly hes got some


relationships.

RW

Ah hmm.

TA

Ah some folks that told me you watch a guy dodge


fifteen bullets.

58 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

RW

Ah hmm.

TA

Eventually you have to question the marksmanship and


whether or not its a real gun.

RW

Yeah.

TA

You know what I mean?

RW

Yeah. Yeah.

TA

And Im not questioning the marksmanship.

RW

Yeah.

TA

And Im not questioning whether or not its a weapon.

RW

Right.

TA

Im questioning who the shooter is.

RW

Yeah who the shooter is.

TA

Right.

RW

Right.

TA

I know that day he saw me coming out, I think I was


coming out of your office, Im not sure. And he asked
me something like what are you doing here. I said what
are you doing here? What am I doing here? Come on
man.

RW

(U/I).

TA

Oh really.

RW

Yeah. (U/I).

TA

Oh ok.
59 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

RW

(U/I).

TA

Let me tell you something.

RW

(U/I).

TA

I can blow Jewell out of the, can I tell you something?

RW

Ah hmm.

TA

I can finance the guy to run after him now.

RW

Yeah. Yeah.

TA

The guy is already ready.

RW

Yeah. (U/I).

TA

Thats not true.

RW

(U/I).

TA

The thing about Jewell that you have to and actually I


like the guy.

RW

Ah hmm.

TA

[1:54:20] What I dont appreciate is his behavior. He


will say almost anything that comes into his head.

RW

Yeah he will.

TA

Thats also a problem.

RW

(U/I).

TA

You know Im standing there Im going back a few


years.
Im standing there with one of the vice
presidents from Bank of America. Young girl. Nice
looking girl.
60 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

RW

Yeah.

TA

You know what I mean?


He decides to make a
comment. Dont do that because shes not that type of
person. You know what I mean. Just respect that man.

RW

(U/I).

TA

Not something you can buy.

RW

He thinks a lot of himself. (U/I).

TA

You know. Ill tell you something. Where I really lost


all respect for him is when he got his girl that job with
Earlene. I was like Jewell come on man. You serious.

RW

Yeah. (U/I).

TA

And she is a difficult person to deal with.

RW

Who? Earlene?

TA

Uh hmm. Jewells girl.

RW

(U/I).

TA

I dont know her name.

RW

Oh. Lawanda (sp).

TA

Heavy set chick right?

RW

Yeah.

TA

Yeah.

RW

Yeah. Real thick. (U/I).

???

All finished with that sir?

61 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

RW

I am. And it was delicious.

???

Wonderful.

TA

Time for coffee.

???

Coffee? Two coffees?

TA

Thank you.

???

Do you need (U/I).

TA

Want a cappuccino?

RW

Yeah Ill have whatever you have.

TA

Yeah. Cream sure. Thanks.

???

Cappuccino? Coffee?

TA

Do you want coffee?

RW

What are you having?

TA

Ill have a cappuccino?

???

So two cappuccinos?

TA

Yeah.

???

Ok.

TA

Its steamed milk anyway.

RW

Yeah.

TA

Do you have any of that chocolate sauce?

???

I can see if I can get some from the back for you.

TA

Thanks.
62 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

RW

Yeah.

TA

Thats one of the reasons why nobody knows who I


meet with and I meet with.

RW

Right.

TA

Ahm what are conversations are like because of people


who are instigators like. Ill give you an example of
something. Norm Zarwin, you know who that is?

RW

Who?

TA

Norman Zarwin. Norman is a principal for Zarwin


Baum. Ok. Jewell tried to get a fundraiser through
them. He got in touch with David Oak. You know David
is always trying to run for some office so they gave him
a fundraiser. Jewell thinks hes in. Youre not in. How
are you going to be in with Norman Zarwin. First of all,
your last name doesnt start or end with the word gold.

RW

Ah hmm.

TA

If Goldstein, Silverstein. Something like that maybe.


You know. Stop playing games. He thinks that he is the
only person who understands how to politic.

RW

Yeah I know.

TA

And hes not the, hes not even, he, hes not even
capable of making a deal, I mean a real deal. And when
I say a real day, I mean over ten million dollars. Its
never cut a deal crap to deal with. Hes never done
that. You know when they were building the Fresh
Grocer and all that kind of stuff over on the east side of
Broad, he wasnt really involved. I mean Shirley called
him in and told him what was going to happen.

RW

Right.

63 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

TA

Because Wendell Whitlock and them, those were her


people. You know what I mean?

RW

Yeah.

TA

But eventually Andrew Karn, well his wife, you know,


that whole North Philadelphia scene is getting ready to
be shaken up because you remember Roxanne Jones
chief of staff? Mike Joyner?

RW

Yeah.

TA

Between us, me and you here.

???

(U/I).

TA

Thank you dear.

???

Do you need spoons (U /I).

TA

Ah Im ok. Thank you.

???

Ok.

TA

Actually you know what, bring them.

???

Ok.

TA

Thanks. Hes getting ready to run.

RW

(U/I).

TA

(U/I) he just asked me for twenty grand. I mean cause


thats what he thinks he needs. You know short term
cash.

RW

(U/I).

TA

No, no, no.

RW

(U/I).
64 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

TA

Is it a judge? Somebody running for judge maybe?

RW

Maybe.

TA

Im going to tell you something else. One of the union


boys (U/I).

RW

Oh yeah. (U/I).

TA

Ah hmm.

RW

Yeah (U/I).

TA

Kevin?

RW

(U/I).

TA

Mel.

RW

Ahm who else. (U/I).

TA

Gary.

RW

Gary.

TA

Williams.

RW

Yeah Gary Williams.

TA

Could you see Gary up here in a suit and a tie. Come on


now.

RW

(U/I).

TA

He got to cut those fingernails first.

RW

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

TA

And I like Gary.

65 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

RW

Yeah.

TA

Good guy. Hes a very good guy. Hes not malicious.

RW

No.

TA

Thats what I should say. Hes not malicious.

RW

He claims that ah (U/I).

TA

Whats Frank doing now? Nothing, right?

RW

Nah.

TA

Hes just home.

RW

(U/I). You know what I mean?

TA

[2:00:41] I thought you know, I really thought Harold


would have had that opportunity.

RW

Yeah.

TA

But Kenyatta boy.

RW

Yeah. Harold, he wants to be a candidate.

TA

For what?

RW

For council seat.

TA

Oh come now.

RW

Yeah he called me. He called me man.

TA

Its not going to happen.

RW

He said uhm (U/I).

TA

Well I will say this about that. I dont think so.

66 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

RW

I told (U/I). He got killed eight years ago (U/I).

TA

He is not, he is not helpful.


He, he, hes well
intentioned but hes not helpful. Ahm besides that, he
has people dont see him as a leader. They dont see
him as a source of information. They do not see him as
someone who cannot live without caring for his
constituency.

RW

Who? Hal?

TA

Yeah. They dont see him as any of those things. They


see him as a use to be cop and I love Harold. Harolds a
great guy.

RW

Yeah.

TA

If he was here, I would say the same thing.

RW

Yeah.

TA

They see him as use to be cop.

RW

Yeah.

TA

Use to be guy who caught bad guys.

RW

Yeah.

TA

Never really a state rep. He never brought any money


to that Point Breeze area. And thats where the money
is needed.

RW

Right.

TA

I mean Tony Peytons a freshman for all intents and


purposes.

RW

Right.

TA

Brought back five million already.


67 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

RW

Right.

TA

Everybody is sort of raised an eyebrow though. Dwight


gave Vanessa a million dollars to go and give to, they,
they, the (U/I) I guess its a bird sanctuary.

RW

Nobody could figure it out (U/I).

TA

Was that his friend?

RW

I dont know.

TA

Ok.

RW

Makes you wonder (U/I).

TA

Right.

RW

Yeah. (U/I).

TA

Is that your friend?

RW

Yeah.

TA

Yeah.

RW

Yeah.

TA

That, thats what I heard. Thats why Im saying it.

RW

Yeah. Yeah.

TA

You know. So many little kids need, need books and


youre giving a million dollars away to a bird sanctuary.

RW

Yeah man, nobody could figure that one out (U/I).

TA

I dont ah, I dont know what ah, what the logic was
behind that.

68 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

RW

Nobody did (U/I).

TA

Philadelphia has lost so much.

RW

(U/I).

TA

[2:05:12] If we can ah let me ask you something. If I


could raise a couple thousand bucks for like a cause
between you and, and maybe one or two other reps in
terms of folks who are not just the, the, the, the, the
caucus, but in terms of a committee. Which committee
would you say?

RW

Ahm (U/I).

TA

Yeah ah hmm. Cause we got to start moving. You know


what I mean. Its already the end of the month.

RW

(U/I) One of the things that I do. I just feel as though


we, one, one of my pet peeves is how do we more to
show veterans that we appreciate them, how do we do
more than show senior citizens (U/I). I believe we had
to do something where it would have impact in (U/I)
and nobody would be upset with you for doing it (U/I).

TA

Ah hmm.

RW

But in other (U/I).

TA

Ill tell you something. A lot of people admire your


staying power. I know we do you know. Beyond that, I
mean were sitting here were having dinner up in
Harrisburg, its after hours, youre doing the job after
hours. You know. Folks dont do that anymore Ron.
They just dont. You know nobody cares enough. They
dont care about the issues, they dont care about the
people, they dont care about the impact, they dont
care about the lives. I mean, its, look, Im going to tell
you something. Couple years ago we were doing a
foursome on a golfing trip, couple of senators and
theyre not from Philly. Theyre not from Pennsylvania.
69 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

Theyre from outside of Pennsylvania.


And their
number one concern was you know what are we going
to do later.
RW

Right.

TA

[2:09:36] You know a lot of people dont recognize the


fact that Pennsylvania is made up very, very hard
working public servants. The problem is you dont
have a lot, I mean you have wealth here but its not
uncommon wealth. You know what I mean. Its not like
California. Its not like Florida. Its not like Nevada, its
not, its, its not, its not like New York. You know. The
common guy in New York gots a couple dollars. Thats
one of the reasons I prefer to deal with people from the
migrant community thats not based in Philadelphia
because in Philadelphia you have a lot of stagnation
going you know. The real estate market is not doing
well. Nothing else is doing really well. Bio-Tech hasnt
even really come to Pennsylvania as of yet. I mean the
only big three that they got is that shale project, the
deregulation and then the privatization of the liquor ah
the liquor controlled stores.

RW

The liquor stores.

TA

The other piece is this. If you, if you really, really want


to look at something that would make a lot of money
and people just dont know how to utilize the resource
is the convention center. I mean they just dont know
how to market it. They dont. Philadelphia is not a
world class city but there are world class attractions
here you know.

RW

Well I hear that a lot of people are already (U/I).

TA

Ah hmm.

RW

Given though the expansion (U/I).

TA

Dwight did not do a great job. He did a job that was


70 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

great for him.


RW

(U/I).

TA

(U/I). Theyre worlds apart.

RW

Right.

TA

You know. And whether or not you know Rosita ah


whether or not she ah she voted for him, whether or not
the votes were cast for somebody else, but the point is
ahm she will be taken care of. She is a survivor. Shes
seen as a go-to person and thats, thats, thats the
other reason why I wanted to talk to you because see
this is what were doing here. This is very, very
important because you have a platform path. I dont
know you know Dwight tried to help Vanessa by making
her vice-chair. Honestly he did her a disservice because
people will see that she cannot, she cannot perform in
that capacity. She just cant do it.

RW

(U/I). I think shes trying to position herself to be chair


after (U/I).

TA

I dont know how much clout she has. I know she does
not have any money.

RW

Ah hmm. She has no money (U/I). She wants to


pretend. She likes to think she has money. She dont
have the money.

TA

Shes an activist.

RW

Shes an activist.

TA

Actually what we call her is a re-activist. All she does is


react.

RW

Right.

TA

Shes not pro-active about anything.


71 | P a g e

She just knows

T-41 January 31, 2011

quite a bit about the octave necessary to get the


attention of people who dont have anything else to pay
attention to.
RW

(U/I).

TA

You know.

RW

Yeah, but one of her main things is that, one of her


main problem is that she thinks she knows but she
dont know. There was a talk (U/I). He always had this
great saying that (U/I). He use to say it isnt the things
that get you in trouble, he said, it isnt the things that
get you in trouble. Ah no. It isnt the things that you
know that get you in trouble, its the things that you
know that just dont happen to be so that get you in
trouble. And thats her. It isnt the things she know
that get her in trouble, cause she knows things. But she
also thinks she knows things that just aint so, so she
knows that shes excited about something that at the
end of the day thats not true. You know, youre very
excited about something that just dont happen to be
so, and you know you try to slow her down.

TA

You cant.

RW

(U/I) if you are not around her then shes going to be all
over the place by the time you get to know her (U/I) you
get to wrap your arms around her (U/I) the damage is
done.

TA

Its already too late.

RW

Its already too late.

TA

[2:14:15] I, Ill tell you something. She ahm she


actually wanted to work with someone that I know,
another lobbyist, but you know his words were to me
and this was last week Thursday, a week before last
Thursday, nah it was a week before last Thursday. He
said you know ahm we just dont think that she has
72 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

ahm the footing, the platform or the capability. Thats


not good. That is not good man.
RW

She dont have none of those things. But what she has
is ah they helped her you know I used to tell her (U/I). I
told her, I said you couldnt have a better (U/I)

TA

Thats terrible.

RW

No but I told her the reason why is because shes going


to get help that she wouldnt have gotten before (U/I).

TA

Right.

RW

(U/I).

???

Together?

TA

Yes.

RW

(U/I).

???

(U/I).

TA

You can take it now hon.

???

Ok.

RW

(U/I).

TA

Can I have some change?

???

Absolutely.

TA

And I need a receipt.

???

(U/I).

TA

Thank you.

RW

(U/I).
73 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

TA

Ill tell you something with regard to Vanessa, I just


think you know eventually shes not going to be there.
Thats from me to you because
she does not
understand basic politics. Like youve been there for a
long time right? Just because Dwight is appropriation
chair or was, doesnt mean that she shouldnt have tried
to be a student of yours or at the very least try to
encourage a mentor relationship because at the end of
the day you could have helped her if you wanted to.
Shes, shes your neighbor literally. You know.

RW

Well I do, I do you know (U/I) some of the things that


dont happen is because of the fact that she will call me
first, she has began to call me more but she still does
things. We had a fundraiser over the weekend for a
school (U/I) where we had uhm it turned out to be good.
It was Saturday, it was amazing, in spite of the weather
you know, parents, students, faculty everybody came
out (U/I), it worked out perfectly, (U/I) the school was in
her district (U/I) but it moved to my district (U/I).

TA

Ah hmm.

RW

Parents came to me, they didnt go to her, they came to


me they asked me if I would help do a fundraiser. They
wanted to do a skate party (U/I). I thought about it, and
I said why dont you do a bowling party (U/I) might be
more fun. Skate (U/I) make people nervous. Lets do a
bowling party. I told them where to go for a bowling
alley.

???

(U/I).

TA

Thank you Jen.

???

Have a wonderful evening guys.

TA

You too.

74 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

RW

(U/I) person gave up the bowling alley totally for free.

TA

Wow.

RW

And gave everybody free bowling shoes and (U/I).


Know I know that she heard about this (U/I)

TA

Ah hmm.

RW

(U/I) she should have been a part of it (U/I).

TA

Well.

RW

You know but all her friend who are around her came to
that party to (U/I).

TA

Do you remember when I first came to you?


have been about four or five years ago.

RW

Ah hmm.

TA

[2:19:03] I mean I always admired you because I never


thought that you were somebody that I was not capable
of, of really talking to or somebody that I thought that I
could get advice from you know because we are
involved in so much and we still are. Theres a day care
center, theres Cambria Legal, its this, its that.
Somethings always popping up.

RW

Ah hmm.

TA

You know and the truth is, is that as, as, as the time has
gone on, and Ive gotten a little bit older in the game
and you try to understand some of the things you
know, one of the things that I learned is be very, very
careful about who you let into your circle. Now you
may not be the richest guy on the block, you may not
be the sharpest guy on the block, but just make sure
you know who you are dealing with.

RW

Right.
75 | P a g e

It must

T-41 January 31, 2011

TA

You know. I know in my heart you know Louise, Louise


knows a lot of lobbyists ok. Her son is one of the best
in the, in the state.

TA

And who does she invite to her house?

RW

Ah hmm.

TA

She dont invite none of them Wodjac boys. She invited


me.

RW

(U/I).

TA

You know.

RW

(U/I).

TA

What do you have in mind?

RW

Uhm you know Ill say this. The only thing I do is stay
focus on working for (U/I). After that things started to
happen (U/I).

TA

Let me ask you something. When, are, youre here


tomorrow, youre not here Thursday and Friday right?

RW

(U/I).

TA

[2:21:29] You know what would be helpful? This is


what would be helpful. If you could, and Im not telling
you to do this, its just a suggestion. Reach out to
Taylor. If you can position yourself to be on that
committee, and I dont know what kind of
conversations need to take place probably with
Dermody, probably with (U/I) ahm a way for you to
position yourself on the judiciary. If you can get into
the habit you know I, you know the old saying, success
is not a sometime thing, winning itself is (U/I). And you
even if your entire focus has been marginalized, you
76 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

cant be marginalized because you are the voice. You


are that person that people will look to not just for ahm
guidance, leadership, the ability to negotiate, they also
look for someone who can sort of breathe some fire and
I know thats not your typical personality but no matter
what you do or how you do it, everybodys watching.
Everybodys watching you know. You know that guy in
north Philly they call John the Baptist. You know John
right? He use to have.
RW

Ah.

TA

He use to have a cane, hed be screaming and the truth


of the matter is nobody really cared what he was talking
about. But he was the guy, the voice, that lone voice
that everybody heard. And Im not suggesting that you
be that because I know thats not your personality. I
know that. But now that youre in the position that
youre in, you know there are a lot of guys who will
come sit down and talk to you much like I am now.
Everybody has some things that would probably be
helpful but again you know its like for me its about
loyalty. Its not about anything else. I would never deal
with certain member of the House or of the Caucus
cause its, it you cant trust them. You cant put your
name on it. You cant you know I know most of the
stuff that we could do together one its important, two
it affects people in a positive way and three it makes
good financial sense. I mean thats leadership. At least
thats what I think leadership is. You know?

RW

[2:24:10] I know you used to always say you want to


chair my campaign or --

TA

Cause I could raise money man.

RW

Yeah.

TA

You know what I mean?

RW

Yeah.

Yeah.

77 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

TA

I could raise you know not too many guys on a humbug


just go sit there and raise twenty, twenty five thousand
dollars. You know what I mean? On a humbug. Just,
just get it done, you know? Just get it done because the
thing about it is this right. And Im sharing this with
you because I had the same conversation, ah, probably
like three or four weeks ago. I dont think you raised
over a hundred thousand dollars. I dont think so. I
can put you in a situation where its not a hundred
grand, but you will consistently raise small amounts of
money. Cause we can put it together for you. You
know?

RW

Yeah.

TA

And, and, and the truth is, it doesnt hurt. Im a


lobbyist so and, and we have, I would like to think, a
good working relationship.

RW

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

TA

And beyond that, we can put some of the caucus


members together. You could be that hand that literally
feeds them because I dont know how to get to Vanessa.
I really dont. Shes an activist. She likes to talk a lot.
Then she talks about things I really dont understand.
You know my colleagues dont understand her. Um,
give you a joke. She was in a meeting with somebody
like I guess it was the end of last year and had to move
it on the side and they were falling out. They were
falling -- Ron, Im telling you they were laughing like.
They were laughing like hell. I said that is horrible.

RW

If you could, it you could get, if you could, I would like


to be able to, to be able to, this is something that I
havent concentrated on a lot.

TA

U hmm.

RW

Its not that I havent had the ability to do better in


78 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

terms of fundraising.
should.

I dont concentrate on it like I

TA

I know.

RW

People always, like Dwights put together a team of


these two girls that he hired just to --

TA

You know who they are?

RW

Just to raise money.

TA

You talking about Jallilla (sp) and Ameena (sp)?

RW

Yeah.

TA

I know who they are.

RW

Just to raise money. (U/I) cause he was always talking


about it. To his credit he always would talk about it
(U/I).

TA

But if. Go ahead.

RW

And I never concentrated on it.


I guess I always
concentrate on working (U/I). I know if I had a problem
I would raise money cause (U/I) if you raise money your
raising it to fight a battle so if you dont have battles
then you dont need to raise money, and um, so I just
work hard so that hopefully that means that would
serve as, why challenge him? People used to tell me,
Ron work hard. If you work hard, then if somebody
wants to run against you, let them run against you; say
theyre going to do this, that and the other, and then
theyll be able to look and say, wait a minute we already
got Ron. Hes already here right now. Why do we need
you? But you know but the truth of the matter is it
wouldnt hurt to have a hundred thousand dollars. Or
two hundred thousand.

TA

Shit, Ron it wouldnt hurt to have ten grand. You know


79 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

what I mean.
RW

(Laughs)

TA

Because with the, the thing about it is with ten you can
leverage it to fifteen, fifteen to twenty-five. I mean
theres leveragability.

RW

Yeah.

TA

The other thing is this.

RW

Well I almost got 30 in there right now.

TA

Ok. Well thats a start.

RW

Yeah.

TA

You know, thats a start.

RW

About twenty-seven.

TA

Well we, we can round it out to thirty. Hows that?

RW

Yeah, yeah.

TA

But what I was going to say to you is this. You can work
hard, but hard work in politics is not insulation from
rivalry.

RW

No. Thats true.

TA

And, and I think thats what you were trying--

RW

Yeah.

TA

Trying to get to. The other piece is this. Seventy five


thousand dollars in two years time does not guarantee
that youre going to be able to stave off that opponent.
But a hundred and twenty five thousand dollars you see
what Im saying?
80 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

RW

Yeah.

TA

You need a database of a hundred and fifty to two


hundred people that will give you two hundred fifty
dollars just on the humbug.

RW

Yeah.

TA

You know?

RW

Yeah.

TA

I can, see the thing, the thing about it is this man. Its
like: how much do you want to work with our group?
Because at the end of the day I mean raising the money
is not really the issue. Its just if I, if can I work with
Representative Waters, will he listen to the stuff that
my people as they say, you know will they come back
and say oh he made me feel terrible, Tyron, you know?
There are some guys that I wouldnt even be having this
conversation with. But I know I feel in my heart that if
we were to go down this road I think it would be
successful.

RW

Okay.

TA

Because you dont have to talk to twenty people, youre


just talking to me. And if you tell me Ty look I need x, y
and z, Im just going to go and get x, y and z. You
know, because at the end of the day what are we
looking for? Were looking for votes on legislation,
were looking for the ability to kind of move our agenda
around.

RW

Right.

TA

And were trying to do so in a manner thats consistent


with the beliefs and with the policies that are already
implemented. Its not a difficult thing were asking,
81 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

you know?
RW

(U/I).

TA

Its not. I, I saw Dermody put something together.


Hes, ah, hes looking to force a bill to ah into the
legislature that will allow them to examine, ah, the
criminal backgrounds of people who are employed by
nursing homes and, ah, elder care facilities. Now that
would be helpful except most of the folks who, ah, have
criminal backgrounds you know they are applying for
jobs you dont know, I mean you dont know how that
would really affect those people and then again, are you
talking about just felonious crimes are you talking
about non-violent felonious crimes. What are you
talking about? So I thought that, I thought that his
memo required greater definition and as the chair of
the Black Caucus you can bring that to their attention. I
will help you mobilize those folks cause honestly, I
know a couple of the chairs already who I have what I
would like to think is a decent working relationship.
The folks who fall by the way side - hey look you cant
please everybody, but the folks who help us support
our agenda, well support theirs. I mean you know at
the end of the day were just trying to make sure that
we have a voice. Thats all. You know?

RW

A good relationship.

TA

Yeah.

RW

This guy, this guy you know him now I fought so many
bills that, I didnt see this one yet. But I do know
people who work in senior citizens facilities that after
we do this up in Harrisburg we create this new reason
why people cant work in this profession or that
profession then we are systematically pushing them out
to, to, to, to nowhere. Were pushing them over a cliff
and ah friend of mine who had worked I think it was ten
years for this nursing facility and Congress passes a bill
government signs into law he loses a job.
82 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

TA

Mmm hmm.

RW

Now heres a person that has a proven track record and


a history of being a great employee.

TA

Mmm hmm.

RW

Lose his job (U/I).

TA

Mmm hmm.

RW

So I was (U/I) and this is a big part of my argument. We


up here dont look systematically (U/I) which is good
because the people who are going to vote against this
(U/I.

TA

Right.

RW

(U/I) cant be no more about people who are going to


vote against it then (U/I). (U/I) look at this bill I got
signed into law. Well at the end of the day, what did
they do long term? It did nothing but disenfranchise a
whole lot of people, for your simple (U/I) gratification
of knowing that the bill has you as its prime sponsor.
So Dermody and all of them, I dont mind (U/I).
Dermodys a prosecutor (U/I).

TA

Mmm hmm.

RW

Dermody is.

TA

Mmm hmm.

RW

So, so (U/I).

TA

Right. Yes that prosecutorial mindset, everybodys a


criminal. Like.

RW

Everybodys a criminal.
83 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

TA

Mmm hmm.

RW

That they, thats what you want to think, but I, I see


things differently. I see that youre going to hurt a lot
more people (U/I).

TA

Well lets, lets, lets put that in context. Hes going to


hurt a lot of black people.

RW

Yeah, absolutely.

TA

[2:33:08] Ok. You know what I mean. So, so at the end


of the day, its you know, the, the truth of the matter is
look, they come you know, folks from the western part
of the state or the central part of the state, ahm they
come to the table with a number of predispositions
about us in Philadelphia, how we do things, why we do
things, when we do things. And they dont really take
the time to understand why things are the way that they
are. You know, and, and thats, thats ok man. Ahm
that guy (U/I). Im just going to tell you this, ok. Why is
he with you?

RW

(U/I) who (U/I)?

TA

Mmm hmm, John.

RW

Oh, he came (U/I). He needed a job. He worked for


(U/I) so they let him go. He just started hanging around
the office and we had an opening so he just sat in the
chair, and eventually ah I let my staff actually talk me
into it, we had no guys there. Hed be alright.

TA

Im telling you this as a friend ok. Everybody needs a


second chance. I understand that. But what were see,
John is a guy from the street, he knows a lot, he knows
a lot of people, you know. Thats why I prefer to meet
with you up here. Because I dont trust too many
people. And I know some folks who know him from
back in the day.
84 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

RW

Mmm hmm.

TA

You know so just be careful man.

RW

Oh yeah.

TA

Just be careful because he was jammed up pretty bad.


Bad.

RW

Really?

TA

Yes really. You dont know what they use to call him?

RW

Uh mmm.

TA

Two Guns. He only got that piece of (U/I) because of


Malik.
Malik helped him out. Bilal (U/I) helped him
out.

RW

Mmm hmm.

TA

Ahm whats the other guys name? Ray somebody.

RW

Ray Jones.

TA

Ray Jones. Thats it. But you know, I, and, and the
truth is at the end of the day man in, in Philadelphia,
got to be careful.

RW

I understand. I know.

TA

But ah.

RW

(U/I).

TA

But there are.

RW

(U/I). [2:35:29]

TA

If, if we could do this in the, next like next week, cause


85 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

Ill have something.


RW

Mmm ok.

TA

I got something for you now, you know what I mean?


But, ah, think about, think about, if we can raise a
couple grand which we can, who, how can we bring
some of these people into you know saying hey you
know Ron took care of me. You know he helped me out
like, look for somebody who needs a little bit of money,
do something. And, and just, lets just give it to him.
You know what I mean, just say here this, you know Im
the chairman, Im trying to take care of my own.

RW

Mm hmm.

TA

Thats the only way Ron. It, its not about issues, its
about support. You know what I mean?

RW

Theres some people that could use (U/I).

TA

Not.

RW

(U/I).

TA

Not Vanessa.

RW

(Laughs)

TA

Thats your girl.

RW

I know shes good, but Im not worried about that. I,


the reason why Im not is because I havent seen what
she had really tried to turn that around on her own.

TA

Ok.

RW

Ok.

TA

Right.

86 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

RW

Thats the part (U/I).

TA

Well.

RW

If I see a person is trying herself to do something and


they went as far as they can but theyre still coming up
short, thats different. But what I see a person that is
traveling, I see a person that doing all this other stuff
and I know people who she owes money to who are
(U/I).

TA

Who?

RW

Janise.

TA

Law?

RW

Yeah.

TA

Ah really?

RW

You ever talk to her?

TA

I heard about her man. Janise is a bad girl. She know


what she doing.

RW

She didnt get paid.

TA

Uh oh. Can I tell you who else didnt get paid?

RW

Who?

TA

The law firm man.

RW

Hmmm.

TA

The law firm.

RW

Oh yeah they helped her case. (U/I).

TA

The law firm got a judgment against her man.


87 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

RW

Exactly.

TA

Thirty gs. Thirty gs.

RW

They didnt get paid ahm there was a girl in her (U/I).
Her name Julie, Joy, Joyette or something like that.
(U/I) she came to me and said that she worked for the
woman and she owed me and never paid me. (U/I). She
broke too. But you making money and you spending
the money staying in Harrisburg (U/I) pay that woman
(U/I).

TA

Im going to ask you something. Somebody told me she


liked to hit the slots. Is that true?

RW

I dont know.

TA

Ok well now Im telling you.

RW

Mmm.

TA

She likes to hit the slots. Right. You know Ron Ill tell
you something man. The crew that we move with.

RW

Mmm.

TA

[2:38:21]
You know look at, look at, how many
lobbyists are from Philadelphia?

RW

Not a lot.

TA

Pedro tries, Camptropelio tries, John tries, but these


guys theyre lawyers who are lobbyists. Theyre not
lobbyists.

RW

Mm hmm.

TA

Theyre, theyre approaching this thing from a place


that is so safe and so secure and at the end of the day,
its really unrivaled in terms of how boring it can be.
88 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

They dont really have vision. They dont have


resources, not really. I mean the only guy that I could
really think of that might be able to do something is
Nelson Diaz. And hes not leaving Blank Rome anytime
soon.
RW

Mmm.

TA

You know?

RW

Right.

TA

You know man we could, we could definitely put


something together. You know? We could definitely
put something together.

RW

Ah.

TA

If we could meet, if we could meet up here like twice a


month, you know what I mean?

RW

Okay, okay. Fine, lets do it.

TA

Mm hmm.

RW

(U/I) get myself in a position where I can help them.

TA

Yeah.

RW

That will get their attention.

TA

Yeah.

RW

Money talks.

TA

Not even the money, right?

RW

Um hmm.

TA

Its your intentions.

89 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

RW

Mmm hmm.

TA

You know one of the, thats like looking out for your
children.

RW

Yeah.

TA

You know?

RW

Yeah.

TA

Cause essentially thats what they are. You know what I


mean? My...

RW

They ah.

TA

My grandfather says to me all the time, boy I dont


know where you get all them thoughts in that head of
yours.

RW

Oh man.

TA

But the thing is if you work with folks, folks will work
with you.

RW

Yeah.

TA

And then, you know, the hope, the hope is that they
remember you know? Thank you so much. Its on the
table.

???

Alright thank you.

TA

(U/I).

RW

(U/I).

TA

Mmm hmm.

RW

(U/I).

90 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

???

Good evening.

RW

You have now got to be our guy.

TA

Right.

RW

Thats what they said. They called me. (U/I) you have
to be our guy. Youre the one that (U/I).

TA

[2:40:38] If we were going to work with somebody in


the Senate, who would it be?

RW

Um.

TA

Who are you comfortable with?

RW

Shirley Kitchen.

TA

In the Senate?

RW

Her and Vince.

TA

Let me tell you something, ok.

RW

Mmm hmm.

TA

(U/I) Shirley about five hundred thousand dollars (U/I)


to that center.

RW

Mmm hmm.

TA

It never happened.

RW

Mmm.

TA

You know?

RW

Right.

TA

She bullshitted us all the way to the bank cause it


wasnt like we didnt take care of her. We did, for a
91 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

very long time. I cant, you know stupidity is doing the


same thing over and over and expecting different
results. We cant work with her.
RW

Mmm.

TA

Not initially anyway.

RW

Okay.

TA

Now if think that you might be able to work with her on


your own, thats different.

RW

No, no.

TA

Cause I will provide the resources.

RW

No, no.

TA

You know what I mean.

RW

She, she, why she didnt do it I dont know. Cause she


has

TA

Well she lost. She couldnt do shit because of Vince.


Vince was gone.

RW

Yeah (U/I).

TA

But see you know what I mean.

RW

Thats who she had.

TA

Right.

RW

Yeah that was her (U/I).

TA

Yeah.

RW

But he was like but he, he think that if you (U/I).

92 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

TA

Right.

RW

That was his problem.

TA

Well who, you know, its not just Vince thinks that.

RW

Well no.

TA

And, and wait till Farnese ah with. I saw, I saw him the
other day. I said Larry, smile man. [2:42:06] Where are
you? Over here?

RW

Im right there.

TA

Alright. Ill walk across the street with you.

RW

Ill work with almost anybody in there because most of


the people (U/I).

TA

We need somebody.

RW

(U/I).

TA

See Shirley is not on Appropriations.

RW

Uh huh.

TA

So that is going to dictate who we work with.

RW

Well they got Vince.

TA

You know.

RW

Hughes.

TA

Ok.

RW

Yeah. I mean he (U/I).

TA

Well then me, you and Vince, you know at some point,
lets get some stuff going me and you first and then,
93 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

you know, when we get to that bridge, well cross it.


RW

(U/I). Hes fine. I mean hes (U/I) good advice. And I


told him what he did to Vanessa was outstanding.

TA

What did he do with her?

RW

He pretended that, that two million dollars that they got


for that, um, one for the rec center (U/I).

TA

Oh for her?

RW

That it was her doing.

TA

Her doing, yeah.

RW

That shit had been in that committee for over (U/I)


years.

TA

Where are you? Over here?

RW

Yeah.

TA

Oh youre right here.

RW

It had been sitting inside that damn -- Vince had


actually started that shit moving six years ago.

TA

Oh, you drove over here?

RW

Yeah.

TA

Oh ok.

RW

Yeah. You know I said that was very creative of you. I


said I dont know anybody else would have gave her

TA

When you go in the car, Ill give it to ya, alright?

RW

Two million dollars.

94 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

TA

Cause I dont want to give you nothing out here.

RW

Ok.

TA

Yeah.

RW

Two million dollars, and then let you take credit for it.
He just laughed at it.

TA

Its the usual amount. Its five hundred in there.

RW

Ok my man.

TA

Alright.

RW

My man.

TA

Thank.

RW

Thank you my brother.

TA

Youre welcome.

RW

I appreciate you man.

TA

I will, ah, Ill give you a call on Thursday. I wont be


here Friday but lets see if we can do this again next
Monday.

RW

My man.

TA

And I will get a couple thousand dollars together


probably by the fifteenth or the next. Just isolate who
you want to help.

RW

Ok.

TA

And Ill get the money. Alright?

RW

My man.

95 | P a g e

T-41 January 31, 2011

TA

Alright Ron. Thanks man.

RW

Thank you. Thank you.

TA

Youre welcome brother.


bye.

No problem.

Alright.

Bye-

[2:45:04] Hey there sir, Im ready, whenever you are.


It. Ok. It went well. Alright. Ok. Alright. Bye-bye.
SSSAT

[2:51:10] Again this Claude Thomas, Senior Supervisory


Special Agent, once again todays date is Monday,
January 31st, year 2010. Current time is 21:43 hundred
hours. Ah recording device will be deactivated at this
time.

96 | P a g e

T-44 February 6, 2011

Office of Attorney General


Investigation No. 36-622

TA
SSSAT
RW
???

=
=
=
=

Consenting Party
Senior Supervisory Special Agent Claude Thomas
Ron Waters
Unknown

RW

Yes.

TA

Hey there sir. How are you doing?

RW

Im alright.

TA

Im sorry. I just missed your call.

RW

Oh yeah. Yeah.

TA

Good news.

RW

Everything okay.

TA

Yeah man. Everything, I mean you know just working


hard but good news today in the paper at least.

RW

Whats that?

TA

You got one more. Well Maria, you know, that special
election we were talking about the other day.

RW

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. She won.

TA

Mmm hmm.

1 | Page

T-44 February 6, 2011

RW

Yeah, the vote, the voter turnout was, it wasnt good but
you knew that based on the weather and, and ah but
none of that so see what happened was her, her ah, the
brother of the guy who passed, he had already secured
seven hundred absentee ballots you know, like last week
so he was, he knew that, that was like cash in the bank.

TA

Yeah Ron did a good a job for his brother. He did.

RW

Yeah.

TA

He did, well for his sister-in-law I should say.

RW

Yeah.

TA

Are we on for ah well can you do dinner next week,


Tuesday?

RW

Ahm but Im, Im not sure. I just was talking to another


one of the members.

TA

Mmm hmm.

RW

And they said that something was, there was something


that was already scheduled for, for, for that day. I got to
find out if its true or not. And if there isnt anything
already on the schedule, then yes.

TA

Ok. Just so that.

RW

Ill let you know.

TA

We can continue where we left off you know.

RW

Ok.

TA

There are a couple of items that are coming up. I have to


take a look at my email when I go ah to the office
tomorrow and just see.
2 | Page

T-44 February 6, 2011

RW

Ok.

TA

What ah, what issues might be of concern or might be


helpful. How you doing otherwise? You ok?

RW

Oh yeah. Yeah, Im trying.

TA

You sound tired man.

RW

I dont know whats going on. Im, I ah you know ah I, I


feel tired for some reason too. But ah but it, you know, it
was a real busy, hectic day today.

TA

Mmm hmm.

RW

Very hectic. And then I got members calling me out they


all pissed off because of some things that ah Senator
Lance said so ah I, I got to check that stuff out too.

TA

What did Anthony do now?

RW

Something, something he did. Something he said. Ah in


the Tribune, and I got, I got to find out what it was. I, I
did, I havent seen it but I got ah look at it for myself.

TA

By, by any chance, did you get a chance to ah, did you
have the opportunity to talk to Preston?

RW

No I havent seen him.

TA

Ok.

RW

I havent seen him. Ah Ill probably see him Monday.

TA

Ok.

RW

Yeah were back in session on Monday so ah Ill probably


see him then.

TA

Ok.

Well Ill be up there Monday and Tuesday and


3 | Page

T-44 February 6, 2011

probably Wednesday too. So Ill give you a call.


RW

Okay.

TA

Monday morning see if youre.

RW

Ok.

TA

Free for Tuesday and then well do that.

RW

Okay. Alright.

TA

Alright. Alright sir.

RW

Alright.

TA

Thanks for calling.

RW

Alright. Thanks.

TA

Alright. Goodbye.

SSSAT

The preceding communications took place between CI


2010-01 and RW in reference to case number 36-622. I
recorded this conversation in reference to this case
number.
I am Claude Thomas, Senior Supervisory
Special Agent, Pennsylvania Office of Attorney General,
Badge #118, A certification #A-1418. Todays date is
Thursday, February the 3rd, year 2011 and the current
time is 19:06 hundred hours. This tape is now being
deactivated.

4 | Page

T-46 February 9, 2011

Office of Attorney General


Investigation No. 36-622

Senior Supervisory Special Agent, Pennsylvania Office of Attorney


General, badge number is 118, A certification number is A-1418.
Todays date is Wednesday, February the 9th, year 2011. Current
time is 18:55 hundred hours. This recording device will be placed
on CI-2010-01 in reference to investigation #36-622. CI will be
recording conversations between CI and RW within the confines of
the city of Harrisburg, county of Dauphin County. This tape will be
deactivated by myself at a later time.
TA
SSSAT
RW
???

=
=
=
=

Consenting Party
Senior Supervisory Special Agent Claude Thomas
Ron Waters
Unknown

TA

(3:07) Hi. Good evening. Two.

???

Two?

TA

Mmm hmm. (U/I).

???

He went to the other way.

TA

Ah no actually. Theres someone else.


Thanks. Thank you.

???

And am I looking for a male or female?

TA

Male.

???

Okay. Is this him coming?

1 | Page

Corner is fine.

T-46 February 9, 2011

TA

No. I just spoke with him a few minutes ago. So maybe


hes running a little bit behind.

???

Okay. Thats fine.

TA

Thank you.

???

Well look for him. Ill tell, Ill let my manager know. Do
you want anything to drink other than water?

TA

Ah Can I have a Diet Coke? Thanks. Actually, you know,


Ill switch that. A cup of coffee.

???

Coffee?

TA

Thank you.

???

Youre welcome.

TA

Thank you.

???

(20:15) Does your friend live far away?

TA

Ahm no were both actually coming up from Philadelphia.

???

Yeah. Maybe theres some traffic somewhere, something


got held up.

TA

Maybe. Thank you dear.

???

Youre welcome.

???

Hey how are you doing?

TA

How are you?

???

Good.

TA

(26:55) (on the phone) Hey there sir. You ok?


Oh okay. Alright. Bye-bye.
2 | Page

T-46 February 9, 2011

Hi.
???

(30:01) Sir, would you like to have a newspaper while


youre waiting?

TA

Oh no. He should be here. He just called me.

???

Okay.

TA

Thank you.

RW

(30:56) Whats up man?

TA

I thought you got kidnapped.

RW

Oh God. Oh God. No, no, no, no. It wasnt, it wasnt, it


wasnt like that. Yeah how you been though?

TA

Good. Good.

RW

Yeah. Yeah (U/I) day most people want to come in talking


about.

TA

Call it what it is.

RW

(U/I).

TA

You enjoy it.

???

There you are. Glad you made it.

RW

Yeah.

???

(U/I). How are you? Would you like something to drink


besides water?

RW

Ah yeah. Glass of Riesling?

???

Riesling? Absolutely.

RW

Yeah.
3 | Page

T-46 February 9, 2011

TA

What happened last night? So they just left yall hanging?

RW

(U/I) You know they need the Black Caucus to be on


board so they can have a shot at getting this stuff passed.
You know, questions get asked. They answer them, but I
keep asking questions, nobodys answering so Im getting
tired. Maybe they need to bring these experts in at some
point, then they dont (U/I) so all I have (U/I). I dont like
doing that because when I tell them look, we going out for
dinner, (U/I), then they dont do it, Im not gonna, Ill be
reluctant to do it again. Ill be reluctant. I need to make
sure and theyre gonna have to give me some
reassurances they gonna follow through with it and I dont
know how they do that cause I dont like the way (U/I).

TA

I will ah tell you something. Normally when something


like that happens, one of two things took place. A phone
call was made, delay that because of this.

RW

Mmm hmm.

TA

Or hes not the one. We got to call somebody else.

RW

Yeah.

TA

You know the drill.

RW

Yeah.

TA

You know.

RW

(U/I) if you dont know (U/I) the flipside because (U/I) that
might have happened. Somebody might have made a
phone call. (U/I) or you know the only power (U/I).

TA

Its, its unfortunate but what may take place is the


marginalization of the left ahm may or may not, you
know. Eventually I hope that ah you recognize the folks
who will be sincere and meet you now and can follow
through. And stack those bench marks against those
4 | Page

T-46 February 9, 2011

people who would like to know you and would like to


follow through but will not or cannot because of the
politics. In other words, one youll waste your time, one
you will waste your time and your resources you know.
Youll, youll waste a little bit of time in each case because
you have to get to how can we work together and
sometimes that takes a little bit of doing but as I come up
here, ahm more and more, and Im understanding the
issues a little bit more you know. A lot of effort is being
giving in Washington to the Lets Move campaign. You
now and then here, ah you got a couple of folks who
would like to mirror that effort. Where do you stand on
that? [35:48]
RW

On the eh, (U/I).

TA

No, this is the obesity issue.

RW

Oh.

TA

Well get to the voucher in a second. Thats another,


another part of the conversation. But in terms of the
effort for the reduction of childhood obesity, where are you
on that?

RW

Ah I feel ah, the ah problem for me is stopping (U/I)


people (U/I). A lot of it is fast-food industries and other
processed food people (U/I) they, they got specific income
(U/I). Theyre pushing to make life easy for them (U/I).
How do we slow that down? (U/I). I think education, (U/I),
peoples lifestyles.
I mean thats a, thats a major
problem. But how do you get people to at least start
recognizing that there is a problem and for me, its, you
know, where I stand. I stand on trying to fix it. How do
we fix it (U/I)? How are you get people to try to stop
feeding their children (U/I). Theres a guy named Jeff
Brown (U/I)grand opening in a couple of weeks as you
know (U/I) Shop Rites.

TA

Mmm hmm.

5 | Page

T-46 February 9, 2011

RW

Ahm talked to him yesterday (U/I) he wanted me to be


there for a groundbreaking ceremony, but my thing is, to
your point which I dont really get how people (U/I). We
got get serious (U/I) but for me, (U/I) Ive been working
with a lot of doctors. We got a white paper with (U/I). So
Im trying to show where the ah the issues that (U/I) we
ahm (U/I) go to the doctors office for treatment for the
problem that we are ah we brought on ourselves, and all
they do is give us treatment to keep us comfortable, but
continue in the same lifestyle. You see what they do is,
they dont cure you of the problem. They give you
medication so you can live with the problem and ahm so
(U/I) so thats, thats where (U/I).

TA

The.

RW

(U/I).

TA

The physicians are part of the construct ah that allows


you to look at the systemic problem.

RW

Yeah.

TA

Poor diet ahm more than required caloric intake.

RW

Yeah. [39:53].

TA

And then the diseases that are ah derived out of that


process by abuse of food. Ahm but to bring it full circle,
youre going to need some input and this is just my
suggestion, ahm from the registered dietary association,
the, the group of dieticians, registered dieticians, youre
going to need some input from the agricultural lobby.
Youre going to need some input from the manufacturing
lobby.

RW

Okay.

TA

Ahm beyond all of those, you know, those four groups


aside, youre going to need to reach out to some of the
agricultural scientists you know. It, it, it, it, it is truly a
6 | Page

T-46 February 9, 2011

very, very large problem. Heres a question for you cause


Im going to show you something Im working on, ahm if
we were to propose ah sending something like that and
when I say like that, I mean specifically addressing the
adolescent obesity issue. Who could we work with to, to
get something like that ahm get some support for it, who
could we, besides yourself, who would you suggest we
reach out to?
RW

You could reach out to someone who (U/I) chairs from


agricultural committee. I would think they (U/I). Ahm,
youre talking about in the House of Representatives?

TA

Yes.

RW

Or outside?.

TA

No, in the House.

RW

Yeah, the agriculture committee. Find out whos on there


whos also sensitive to the same issues (U/I).

TA

And in terms of the caucus, cause were going to need


some ah some help there, who would you think, who
would you.

RW

Black caucus?

TA

Yes.

RW

Probably, Vanessa Brown. Ill tell you shes either, I think


that its good to have a woman in there. Someone who
looks for the issues.
Understands it, and can be
educated. But needs to be educated because she goes off
sometimes and thinks that she already got so much
knowledge. I think its a (U/I) issue. (U/I) one of our
meetings she even brought up childhood I mean uhm
(U/I) malnutrition does not necessarily mean that a
person is thin. She said you could be thin and still be,
you could be healthy, I mean, you could be (U/I) I mean
shes fat so (U/I) malnutricious.
7 | Page

T-46 February 9, 2011

TA

Who was saying this?

RW

Vanessa was saying it.

TA

Oh.

RW

Shes not thin.

TA

Okay.

RW

Cause shes heavy. So she was like you could still be


heavy (U/I) a lot of caloric food but you aint really
nutritious at all. You got a lot of weight it dont mean
(U/I) malnutritious (U/I) shes somebody that I can work
with (U/I).

TA

Vanessa huh?

RW

Yeah. Shes not the only one but theres other people.

TA

Mmm hmm.

RW

Ah (U/I).

TA

Mmm hmm.

RW

Ah, lets say females are Louise.

TA

Mmm hmm.

RW

Shes the chairwoman of children and youth. [44:02]

TA

Mmm hmm.

RW

(U/I) for her committee. Im on the committee, but

???

Excuse me gentleman. Are you ready to order or do you


want a few minutes to

TA

Ahm.
8 | Page

T-46 February 9, 2011

TA

Ah I need a couple of minutes.

???

Okay.

TA

Please.

RW

Now you got the issue you want to take on now?

TA

Well I think it makes good sense because to start


something up, you know, look, I got all of this stuff that
Im just fiddling through, some of our plans have some
concerns, some requests you know. Ahm its just really
trying to identify who are we going to work with.
You
know we, we certainly ah identified whos going to be on
what committee.

RW

Right.

TA

You know, now its ah, now its who are we going to work
with ahm, hows it impact our clients and then beyond
those things, you know at the end of the day, which,
which cause, which concern, what do we champion first.

RW

Right.

TA

[45:35] You know because the issue with, ah, the


privatization of the liquor licenses, its still the top priority
for us.

RW

Uh huh.

TA

Have you identified anybody that we might be able to


work with in that committee?

RW

There was (U/I). That is, uh, is definitely (U/I). I was


talking to the leadership about it yesterday, and they
brought that up (U/I).

TA

Mm hmm.

9 | Page

T-46 February 9, 2011

RW

(U/I). I think that they all think (U/I) House is going to


pass (U/I).

TA

Right.

RW

They really think that (U/I) its gonna go through (U/I).

TA

Do you want my help? Because we could help. Let me,


let me just share something else with you.
The
privatization issue is of paramount importance. So you
and I both know that its passage in, in the Senate
requires specific committees to be cooperative, right?
Youre going to need Finance, youre going to need
Appropriations.

RW

Mm hmm.

TA

So think about it and if you would like me to look at a


couple of fund raisers to drum up support on the
Senatorial caucus side, let me know.

RW

Okay.

TA

You know? You can just, ah just to go back to the point


that we were talking about earlier, um the obesity issue,
so, so you said Vanessa and, and ah...

RW

Probably Louise.

TA

Louise.

RW

Definitely Louise because see, for her, for her, she knows
that Im already dealing with this on my own as a, as a
major problem in our community. (U/I) as well as one
guy is a heart surgeon because he is one of the, one of the
two African American heart surgeons in the state. He has
become like my ah go-to person on help on these issues
we put together these ah conferences, plus he is also part
of my think-tank. I got a think-tank (U/I) health related
problems, so this, this, this definitely works for me
because childhood diabetes is a very serious issue. I
10 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

know that the Presidents wife is trying to get a little more


attention for the veterans family. So at one point this was
her issue. The First Lady. What really got me (U/I) in
this stuff was (U/I) this guy named Huckabee who ran for
President.
TA

Mike Huckabee.

RW

I was at a conference. This guy was talking about health


related issues because (U/I) massive related deaths (U/I)
he had (U/I) 911, 9-1-1 (U/I) people really be alarmed, got
their attention (U/I) people died on that day, and then he
was talking about Katrina, how that (U/I) how many
people died in Katrina, we still dont have an exact
amount of people who died in Katrina and how (U/I) the
warning was there, the levee should have been repaired,
there was a lot of stuff that should have happened that
would have prevented that tragedy from happening (U/I).
Now I didnt know where he was even going with this it
was going with this we were at a health conference but he,
he was clever in how he uses that analogy that we had in
America about hundred thousand people who die every
year (U/I) people die from cigarettes, people die from a
disease called substance abuse, people die from lack of
proper treatment in hospitals, chronic conditions (U/I),
people die early from diabetes or heart disease (U/I). He
said now you do the math and then divide that by twelve.
He said that that means on average that fifty thousand
people die every year prematurely from, from health
related issues that are preventable. So ahm he said now
take it even further, divide that by thirty. He said youll
see that 1500, 2000, people a day (U/I). So when he
started talking about that, I said, I started to (U/I) that
was a great message (U/I) why arent we doing something
about this (U/I) citizens to die unnecessarily. So what Im
saying is, Im very sensitive to this diabetes, to ahm
obesity (U/I), but its a lot of added people now that are on
insulin at an early age because of eating disorders that
are disgraceful and condition, conditions keep on
happening.

11 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

TA

Mmm hmm. [53:13]

RW

So its not healthy whatsoever.

TA

Mmm hmm.

RW

(U/I) It does not have to happen. It can be stopped but


how are we going to get education to get people to buy
into this stuff so that they remove themselves from this,
while we bring in the supermarkets with options (U/I)
products that wont kill them. Now I think that those two
things have to be coupled together: education and
knowing how to shop and have that ability to shop and
ignore the stores (U/I) bad eating habits.

TA

This, the thing that Im going to say is that there are some
topics and some issues that are, they make a lot of sense
to champion because of a number of people that they
effect, the untimely death that they bring on, these
diseases, and then if you try to combat it through
education, you could probably get a lot of support.
However, ahm those things require a tremendous amount
of research and a tremendous amount of time. Ahm it
also requires like minded individuals to come up with
white papers.

RW

Mmm hmm.

TA

Studies, it requires research grant money. It requires


ahm in-depth resources and then you got to structure
how those resources are going to be distributed and then
ultimately who gets ah what part of each grant. And, and
thats always with academicians and with ahm studies
from say a university. Thats always the struggle because
the universities are competing for grant dollars
constantly. So while the obesity issue ahm and I, I
understand that I brought it up, but while that, that is a
good cause, it is not ahm, its not here and now you know.
It, its something that has to be worked on progressively.

RW

Oh absolutely.
12 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

TA

You know. Are you ready to order?

RW

(U/I).

TA

Think you know what you want? Okay. She should be


back over here.

RW

Yeah.

TA

You know.

RW

Long term.

TA

[55:49] Long term you know. And I think even if we dont


utilize, um, the assistance of the two folks you mentioned
for lets say a bill that kind of addresses and Ill just read
a couple of these things off to you here cause this is just
draft one. But ahm the pricing point of food ah then you
got some of the health concerns ah where the agricultural
produce is being grown because of pesticides and other
ecological toxins.

RW

Mmm hmm.

TA

Then you got ahm what I consider to be the crux of the


problem from the education perspective which is when,
when you have a mother, a single mother on welfare for
example, um, there is no prerequisite that requires her to
attend a nutrition class to learn to how to shop, how to
cook or how to feed her children.

RW

Mmm hmm.

TA

And then you got, you got, to try to sponsor some dialogue
in the school and then in addition to all of those things,
ahm exactly what you spoke about it which is also
included in draft one of this first copy, the fast food
industry. You know ensuring that co-working ah the
postings are prominently displayed in public areas which
they are doing now but they also need to ensure that the
13 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

postings are in several languages because the cultural ah


make up of Philadelphia and, and, and Pennsylvania is
changing rapidly and then holding forums with dairy
farmers and agricultural farmers and then you know
doing studies to look at statistical information ahm and
how that gets distributed. [57:28] All of those things are
very important and, and key to getting it done correctly.
But it takes a long time you know. The issues that are
sort of timely and that are here and now that require, um,
bipartisan support is the shale issue. Is the privatization
of the liquor, ah, licenses. Those are also the items on the
table that you and your colleagues can derive benefit
from, you know? It, its trying to figure out you know how
do we ahm, how do we create that, that, that extension
because you want to go into a place where you
understand that its necessary. Once you figure out
whether its necessary or not, then you can select who
from your group do you think you can really count on for
support. In other words, you want, you dont want to
find, ah, you dont want to find yourself in a place where
you thought you could count on this person but you cant.
You know because you know this at the end of the day its
all about who. Ill give you an example. If, if we were
looking at the privatization project as opposed to
something like this, which you know we are, instead of
Vanessa or Louse, cause I know neither of their postings
in terms of their committees are relevant, who could we
work with?
RW

(U/I) The only other person, I dont know how you feel
about him in particular, but he usually does the research
for these things, and that would be Curtis Thomas.

TA

I feel fine with Curtis I mean Ive known him for a long
time never had any business dealings with him. Ahm,
what would you like?

RW

(U/I).

TA

Ah no, no, no. Its fine, its fine.

14 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

RW

(U/I).

TA

We had the scampi last time we were here.

???

(U/I).

TA

I know what Im going to have.

RW

What are you going to have, man?

TA

Im going to ah, you know, if, if, if it, if it worked the first
the time, dont ah.

???

(U/I).

TA

Dont do anything else.

???

(U/I).

RW

(U/I).

???

(U/I).

RW

(U/I).

???

(U/I).

RW

(U/I).

???

(U/I).

RW

(U/I).

???

(U/I).

RW

(U/I).

???

No theyre (U/I).

RW

(U/I).

15 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

???

Ok. Alright. What kind of dressing would you like to have


on your salad, or you can have soup instead?

RW

What kind of soup?

???

We have (U/I) and New England clam chowder.

RW

Ill have a salad. Dressing, do you have (U/I)?

???

Balsamic vinaigrette or raspberry vinaigrette?

RW

Raspberry vinaigrette.

???

Thank you, sir.

TA

Ill have the same. Thats easy.

???

Oh, it is, absolutely.

RW

Very good.

TA

Thats easy enough.

TA

The, the piece, the piece is this cause you can see whats
going on in my brief case. Ive got like you know the day
care situation, thats going out of control. Childhood
obesity issue. You got some other people looking at the
insurance industry. Whats going to take place in terms
of the teenage ah insurance issues that are coming up
more and more because children are drinking and driving
at the most alarming rate in our history.

RW

Mmm hmm.

TA

You know and then we got the voucher issue which Im


going to talk to you about now. Ahm, I was told to ask
and I, and I dont know if, if this might be helpful to you.
We do book drives every year at the day care center. Now,
does your office ever do book drives?

16 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

RW

We, we ahm (U/I).

TA

But in terms of books in the opening of the school year,


that are utilized in pre-kindergarten like what we do, have
you ever had one of those?

RW

No.

TA

I think this summer that would be a great thing to sort of


consider.

RW

Yeah.

TA

Because not only can we bring a lot of value to the table


because of that.

RW

Right.

TA

We, you can actually sort of ahm look at how the books
get distributed for example, if its going to licensed
facilities or if its going to facilities with ahm folks who are
not licensed but on their way to becoming licensed. It
sort of allows you to sort of trace the progress of that
business. And in time, that would become very beneficial.
You know? [01:03:42]

RW

Now you talking about, now, you, you give these books.

TA

Mmm hmm.

RW

To day care centers?

TA

Yeah. Yeah.

RW

Really?

TA

Mmm hmm.

RW

And they (U/I).

TA

See that would mean that we would have to work


17 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

someone on the education committee.


RW

Yeah.

TA

Now if we were working with somebody on the education


committee, who might that be? Who would you pick?

RW

I would only say the chair of the committee (U/I).

TA

So that would be Roebuck?

RW

Mmm hmm.

TA

Okay.
But do you think, heres, heres a, heres a, the
question. You know Ive, Ive worked pretty hard to look
at who do we know, ahm are these folks already
positioned on committees that would be helpful to us,
giving us ahm the ability to ah voice our cause for our
client and then can we work with these ah folks long
term? The entire key here is long term.

RW

Right.

TA

You know they look at me and they say well Ty youre a


finance guy, youre a lobbyist.

RW

Right.

TA

Ah you understand what needs to happen what were


trying to do is understand is when can we expect it to
happen.

RW

Okay.

TA

You know.

RW

Okay.

TA

And, and the truth is, Ron look, you know I like you.

RW

Mmm hmm.
18 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

TA

Beyond like, I respect you.

RW

(U/I).

TA

[1:05:14] You know, and I feel like we can have a solid


working relationship.

RW

Right.

TA

You know.

RW

Right.

TA

It, its like this, if we bring Curtis to the table, I mean, will
he work with us? If we bring Vanessa to the table, would
she work with? If we bring Louise to the table, will she
work with us? You know?

RW

I think her only because I think she is vulnerable. She


needs help.

TA

Who is vulnerable?

RW

Louise.

TA

Why do you say that?

RW

Vulnerable, yeah.

TA

Vulnerable in what sense?

RW

Cause she has to have, um, theres some things, she


needs to start producing something, okay?

TA

Louise?

RW

Yeah. I aint saying that shes not productive, but thats


because of her (U/I) personality, but when it comes down
to substance (U/I), but then she falls short, and I love her
as a person, but I think she needs to start being
19 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

productive.
committee.
that.

I mean ineffective, shes the chair of a


You know, most people dont view her like

TA

Most people dont deal with her?

RW

They dont view her like that.

TA

They dont view her as?

RW

Productive.

TA

Oh.

RW

(U/I) I mean (U/I) shes still got the rep.

TA

What if I said this? Shes a very nice person.

RW

She is. She is, but that isnt the same. You know, like
she was talking to me yesterday about how shes going to
run a committee, but the people dont respect her on that
committee.

TA

Who said that to you, somebody in the caucus?

RW

(U/I) a long time.

TA

Huh?

RW

(U/I).

TA

Hmmm.

RW

Frank Oliver used to step in her face all the time and tell
her you got to be you got to run your committee, you got
(U/I) the majority.

TA

Mmm hmm.

RW

(U/I) was running the committee.


He just totally
disrespected her. Right in front of all the members. You
20 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

cant have that. You the chair you got to (U/I).


TA

You know, there are some folks and, and Im not saying
this for any other reason but just to make this statement,
there are some folks you know, youre familiar with the
program The Center for Progressive Leadership.

RW

Mmm hmm.

TA

Okay. There are some folks who need a refresher course


you know every once in awhile. [1:07:52] But the, the
other piece is this, even if we worked with her.

RW

Mm hmm.

TA

If we try to get a bill, ah, introduced and, and lets assume


that we get it pass the House.

RW

Mm hmm.

TA

Were going to get killed in the Senate.

RW

Why?

TA

Because were looking for, we need at least


Appropriations sponsor and who would that be?

RW

Vince.

TA

You sure?

RW

Sure.

TA

You can bring Vince to the table?

RW

Yeah, for this.

TA

Okay.

RW

Mm hmm.

21 | P a g e

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T-46 February 9, 2011

TA

How about on the, on the, on the liquor, look you, you


know Im a republican.

RW

Mm hmm.

TA

If, if we were looking for some support on both the


Marcellus Shale issue and the privatization of the liquor
license issue, do you think that we could count on his
support through you?

RW

Vince?

TA

Yes.

RW

I dont know. Im gonna be honest with you. Marcellus


Shale maybe but the liquor I dont know.

TA

What do you think his, his, um, the impediments are for
him on the liquor issue?

RW

He doesnt want to go against the union.

TA

Oh, look. Heres the thing. Okay, Local 1776 theyve got
their issues. Ive spoken to a couple of folks who are close
to Wendell.

RW

Right.

TA

Their biggest concern has to do with the pension plan.

RW

Right.

TA

You know that and I know that.

RW

Right.

TA

Um, thank you. Beyond that, beyond that, I am quite


sure you know, nobody here is insensitive to the need of
the working American.

RW

Right.
22 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

TA

Nobody is insensitive.

RW

Right.

TA

So I am quite certain that were going to be able to craft a


plan.

RW

Yeah.

TA

That includes and is not subjected to ah any kind of real


discrimination because the (U/I) republicans are (U/I).

RW

Yeah.

TA

Um, it would be nice if we could look at bipartisan


support and at the same time, constantly, ah, benchmark
and check in with him or you, and you, I should say, as to
how this fits into what you need.

RW

Right.

TA

Who else in Philadelphia can do that for you?

RW

Um, on the Republican side? John Taylor, hes the chair


of the committee. The majority chair. Do you know him?

TA

I do not, but its not, its

RW

You need to.

TA

Well we, there are people who do and thats not, that, my,
my strengths.

RW

Okay.

TA

Has nothing to do with being able to reach out to


somebody in the House on the Republican side. Its to
reach out to the folks who we have some relationships
and friendships with.

23 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

RW

Okay.

TA

And enhance or strengthen them.

RW

Alright.

TA

You know somebody else will, will take care of that. If our
client tells me to deal with that, then I will.

RW

Okay.

TA

You know? Unless you can arrange a meeting for me?

RW

Ill look into it.

TA

Is that a yes or a political no?

RW

No, no, no. I will, Ill talk to John.

TA

Okay, thank you.

RW

Ill talk to him today.

TA

Okay.

RW

See if he wants to (U/I) somebody who is interested in


privatizing. Ill be straight up with him.

TA

Okay.

RW

Id like you to talk and have a meeting.

TA

Yeah.

RW

Can arrange it just to tell you, you know, what their idea
looks like.

TA

Oh we dont have to do immediately. Let me, give me until


Monday and Ill let you know because like I said, its a
team of us working.

24 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

RW

Mm hmm.

TA

Somebody might have reached out to him. I dont want to


step on anybodys toes.

RW

Okay.

TA

Im the new guy on the block anyway.

RW

Okay. Okay.

TA

You know.

RW

(U/I).

TA

Ahm its more than pressure.

RW

Mmm hmm.

TA

No, no, thats putting it kind.

RW

Thats polite I know.

TA

Mmm hmm. So if we can work with you know how do you


think we might be able if, if, if Louise is, if shes not ahm
not someone who is very confrontational at least from
what I hear and what I understand, perhaps we can do
something small with her that makes sense.

RW

Okay.

TA

Maybe not even the introduction of a bill but perhaps give


some small issue, something mundane, a voice on the
floor.

RW

Well shes got a voice.

TA

You know.

RW

Its a matter of if she uses it (U/I) its not like she dont
have a voice, its a matter that she dont have credibility.
25 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

Its a matter of (U/I).


TA

Okay.

RW

So.

TA

Okay. See that, that, thats the other thing you know.

RW

Mmm hmm.

TA

My, each, each day coming up here and.

RW

Mmm hmm.

TA

Looking at whats taken place and, and trying to work


with the members. One thing that I, I sort of understood
earlier but I really understand it now, you really have to
try to find that persons specialty.

RW

Mmm hmm.

TA

There are some folks who are specialists and then there
are some folks who are generalists.

RW

(U/I).

TA

You seem to be a generalist.

RW

Mmm hmm.

TA

Like you know about everything. [01:13:30]

RW

Mmm hmm. I try. Well everything that I think is


important to the people who sent me up here. (U/I) but
now I got to have to figure out how to do some things
political, ahm in this environment (U/I) and still able to be
effective.

TA

Things like what? Tell me.

RW

Well, ahm, let me tell you something, for me, one of my


26 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

weakest areas (U/I) is that I concentrate too much on my


main concerns constituent service and outreach (U/I) to
get something out of the House (U/I) because you know at
the end of the day a lot of people look at us as to, you
know how effective you are as a politician (U/I) they raise
a lot of money (U/I) before they come up here they make
sure that they have that kind of money but it gives ahm
credibility (U/I).
(U/I) its something that I feel is
important that I havent given a lot of attention. You
know that Dwight (U/I) Dwight is (U/I) because he was
the chairman of very important committee, but he was
able to raise a lot of money (U/I) went to his head (U/I).
You got to look at everything. Learn from it (U/I)
TA

Sure.

RW

(U/I) Dwight (U/I) raising money (U/I) million dollars in


his ahm PAC.

TA

Quietly we have considerable resources in ours.

RW

Mmm hmm, right.

TA

More than that.

RW

Right.

TA

Much more than that.

RW

Yeah.

TA

You know the thing that makes me I dont want to use the
word important, but, but makes me sort of indispensable.

RW

Mmm hmm.

TA

In this particular situation.

RW

Mmm hmm.

TA

Is the fact that I brought the money to the table. Period.


27 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

RW

Mmm hmm.

TA

You know. Its our group from Trinidad.

RW

Okay.

TA

Ahm were not based in Philadelphia so ahm less talk,


more action you know.

RW

Yeah.

TA

If, if and I share this with you in confidence, if you need,


here, here, heres how it, the, and I know you know this,
but look, PHA, typical client right?

RW

Right.

TA

Theyre quasi-governmental agency.

RW

Right.

TA

Theyve got connections on the city side, the state side,


the federal side.

RW

Right.

TA

Senatorial side in the state.

RW

Yeah.

TA

And, and the senate side federally as well.

RW

Mmm hmm.

TA

The issue is, if a law firm sort of courts PHA.

RW

Mmm hmm.

TA

And the law firm does a fundraiser for PHA.

28 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

RW

Mmm hmm.

TA

Or someone who would like to be in power at PHA.

RW

Mmm hmm.

TA

Ahm or they connect that person through relationships


with the director of PHA, lets say they get that person a
job. Right. Thats a good thing but its not a great thing.

RW

Right.

TA

What makes sense is when youre able to provide value. I


provide value.

RW

Okay.

TA

I pride, provide value because nobody does research like


me. Thats number one. Number two, when I understand
the issue, I own the issue.

RW

Okay.

TA

And to be able to look at the relationships that we have


and the friendships that weve developed over the years, in
and outside of the United States.

RW

Right.

TA

I bring another kind of value.

RW

Okay.

TA

You know.

RW

Okay.

TA

If we were looking at, look, Vince is having a fundraiser


ahm in about a week. Right. [01:19:20]

RW

Yeah.
29 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

TA

Now those folks are going to become important to him.

RW

Mm hmm.

TA

[1:19:24] You know? Theyre going to be important. The


top line of the fundraiser is about twenty-five hundred
dollars. Now if we did a fundraiser or I helped raise funds
for your campaign.

RW

Mm hmm.

TA

Who is your treasurer now?

RW

A lady employee named Paula Wright.

TA

Paula Wright? Wha, look, I have a client in Philadelphia


that is a collection agency.

RW

Mm hmm.

TA

The parking authority man, thats millions of dollars that


is not collected.

RW

Hmm. Hmm. Wow. Yeah they do.

TA

Do you know anybody there that might be able to help me


get this in as a contract for the client?

RW

Who the Parking Authority?

TA

Yeah.

RW

Yeah. I know Vince Fenerty.


years.

TA

I know.

RW

Yeah. I know Vince.

TA

Sometimes you know, you, you hesitate to ask because I


30 | P a g e

I used to work there for

T-46 February 9, 2011

dont know what your relationships are like there still.


You know?
RW

Hell yeah. They need us a lot of times. A lot of times I give


them a heads up if they try to make a move on them up
here, and they appreciate that. Yeah, call him and ask
him, you know.

TA

But do you think that he could deliver for us?

RW

Who, what you mean on a contract?

TA

Yes. Well not us, but our clients.

RW

Sure.

TA

Mm hmm.

RW

Yeah.

TA

To do collections?

RW

Nobodys on it?

TA

The only folks that are doing ah some portion of the


collection requirement for the Parking Authority is the
NCO Group.

RW

Who? [01:21:00]

TA

NCO. And then theres a smaller collection agency thats


based on Torresdale Avenue.
Its called Revenue
Collection Bureau.

RW

Mmm.

TA

And, no, there are no African-American owned firms that


have this contract.

RW

Yeah.
31 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

TA

Or even a portion of it. You know the, the, here, the other
part of the equations the faster you move.

RW

Yeah.

TA

The more I am able to report back to our client. Hey, this


is whats, this is what we are able to accomplish for you.

RW

Okay.

TA

How quickly can you move?

RW

Okay. (U/I) call to him.

TA

Ron, its over forty-five million dollars.

RW

Yeah.

TA

Its not something small.

RW

Right.

TA

And, and just so that you are aware there are three
components to the contract. There is the servicing of the
ticket, there is the collection of the actual ticket amount.

RW

Mmm hmm.

TA

There is the collection of the ticket and the penalty and


theres also ahm the boot and towing fees.

RW

Mmm hmm.

TA

[1:22:14] So and, and the truth of the matter is look, we


have a, a guy in Trinidad who is a client right, but most of
our folks, we view them as partners. Thats just the way
this is.

RW

Mm hmm.

32 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

TA

If were working together, were working together. I would


love to see you, I dont know why youve never, ah, made a
run for Senate. You know somebody else said that to me
last week.

RW

Oh yeah.

TA

You know.

RW

They say that to me all the time.

TA

Because, because you have the charisma, you know the


issues, you have the friendships, the relationships, you
have, the only thing youre really lacking is the resource.
You know?

RW

Oh man look, Id scare the shit out of those guys if I had


some money.

TA

Mm hmm.

RW

Thats another thing. As a matter of fact thats something


they said to me one time. They said that to me about,
um, I make them nervous, they were glad I dont know
how to raise money cause they said if I knew how to raise
money I was gonna be a threat. You want me to shake
some people up, get their attention, let me concentrate on
the fundraising and dont -- stop all the other stuff that I
do. Trust me, Id shake some people up. (U/I) one thing
or another because, let me tell you something, they had
Black History this month (U/I) yesterday she comes up to
me (U/I) we had the Harriet Tubman re-enactment, we
had the Lincoln University (U/I)

TA

Mmm.

RW

We had ahm local (U/I) drill team perform (U/I) .

TA

Thank you.

33 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

???

Youre welcome.

RW

(U/I) Black Pennsylvanian (U/I).

TA

Oh yeah.

RW

Yeah. (U/I). All day, yesterday (U/I) it was a great event,


great event. And I said that to say this, yesterday (U/I) at
the ahm there was a group of guys who are interested in
taxing (U/I) assert a tax on Marcellus Shale (U/I) who
asked me to please sit down and talk to them. They
wanted to network with the Black Caucus so that we
could empower each other and form an alliance so that we
could leverage our power (U/I) friend of or affiliate of the
Black Caucus on both sides of the aisle. Whatever the
charisma that is (U/I) it must be something that is, is
catching on. Ive got more and more and more people
from leadership coming to me for stuff. They wanted me
to run for leadership (U/I) its about Dwight. I really want
to take Dwight out. (U/I) somebody else in there (U/I).
The only reason I didnt do it is maybe Im just too
considerate, and I thought that it would look like they
were using me, but they really want to take out him (U/I)
didnt want to deal with that (U/I). So I just said thank
you, but no thank you. They still talk to me about you
gonna be a leader. Whatever the charisma or whatever it
is thats there, the only thing thats missing is the money.
Thats whats held me back (U/I).

TA

Thank you.

???

(U/I).

RW

(U/I). What gets in their way is (U/I). Josh hurt himself by


moving too fast and not thinking about how other people
would perceive him. He had Ed Rendell who was his
sponsor and supporter (U/I).

TA

Who was this?

RW

Josh Shapiro.
34 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

TA

Oh, oh, oh. (U/I) boy (U/I)

RW

Now hes going to be leaving pretty soon hes running for


commissioner.

TA

Mmm hmm.

RW

Hell learn.

TA

Mmm hmm. But just, just to address your point, right


there are a lot of folks who come into their own after
theyve been exposed and theyve had intriguing life
experience. Theyre qualified in any event.

RW

Mmm hmm.

TA

But theyre resourcefulness is enhanced because of the


life that they lead, the example that they set, the talent
that they naturally have.

RW

Mmm hmm.

TA

Youre one of those people, youve been that for a long


time. You know, youre a role model. What, what, the
thing that you got to come to terms with is that my God,
your God, other guys God, never said for you to be poor.

RW

No.

TA

Never said that.

RW

No.

TA

In the Book it says be fruitful, multiply.

RW

Yeah.

TA

They werent only speaking about children.

35 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

RW

No they werent, no they werent, no they werent, sure.

TA

You know.

RW

(U/I).

TA

The other piece is that you will find a group of people who
are coming out of college now that are smart.

RW

Mmm hmm.

TA

They are tenacious.

RW

Mmm hmm.

TA

And their parents have money.

RW

Mmm hmm.

TA

And theyre staying in Philadelphia.

RW

Mmm hmm.

TA

These young people need leadership and a lot of them are


going to be in the surrounding areas of your district. You
know I had a meeting with some folks ah one lady ah the
director actually of one of the universities. She heads up
ahm a very prominent university its very close to you in,
in the SPDC world and what they were discussing was the
need for grants. Now being able to bring somebody like
that and connect them with you.

RW

Yeah.

TA

[1:28:45] Is an important thing, because perhaps we can


work through the, the, the, the DCED folks. Bridge that
gap across the aisle and sponsor a grant. See the thing
is, just like I want you to be helpful and, and I want you
to be, ah, someone that I can reach out to, I also want to
help you. I want you to be helpful to us but I want to help
you.
36 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

RW

Okay.

TA

You know, I want to be your guy but I want you to be our


guy.

RW

Okay.

TA

In the House. I dont want any, any, I dont want anyone


to ever think that I do not understand the burdens that
are placed on you. Cause look, look at what we are doing
here, were having dinner, right? This is a time when you
could have been at a fundraiser with somebody else. And
I understand that, Ron.

RW

Mm Hmm.

TA

And I appreciate your time.

RW

Mm hmm.

TA

You know I do. You know? Its just when somebody,


look, I told one of the folks in, in New York, I said look,
somebody approaches you, you know, Ill, Ill work with a
lobbying group and this is my guy.

RW

Mm hmm.

TA

Tyron. This is, this is the guy you need to talk to.

RW

Mm hmm.

TA

You know. And, and its not for significant things. Its for
things that you may or may not have the time to deal
with. You know what I mean?

RW

Yeah.

TA

Like, like, let, lets make an example of this. Lets say that
somebody wants to talk to you about privatizing water.
Well you dont know well, all of, I dont know all the things
37 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

that have to do with that, the person might, but now hes
tying up your time.
RW

Yeah.

TA

You know, if you tell him, look, I want you to talk to Tyron
Ali. This is the guy, this is his phone number.

RW

Right.

TA

Set up a meeting with Tyron. That way youre insulated


one and two, you have the ability, I can tell you what
makes sense and then we can work for something else. I
mean these are four different projects that I have here.

RW

Right.

TA

Now I can sit here and talk to you about.

RW

Right.

TA

But at the end of the day, talking about the projects is one
thing; how is it going to be helpful to you?

RW

Right.

TA

To your cause, to your constituents. At, at the end of the


day Ron look, you, it, its okay for you to help everybody,
but you have to kind of look at the fact that if people are
building up their war chest, they can come against you.

RW

Right.

TA

Now if you have enough in your coffer, it kind of puts


them off from doing that.

RW

Oh yeah.

TA

You know that.

RW

Yeah. Oh yeah.
38 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

TA

You know.

RW

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I know, if I had (U/I) everything else to


maintain (U/I) the mayor of Philadelphia said that to me
(U/I).

TA

Each elect, each election cycle is like you know, each


senator raises about two hundred thousand dollars.

RW

Wow.

TA

Or three.

RW

Hmm.

TA

[1:31:36] Do you remember when Larry Farnese was


running for Vinces spot?

RW

Right.

TA

Fumo raised, ahm, three hundred thousand dollars for


him.

RW

Right.

TA

In less than a week. From nine Senators out of the


western part of Pennsylvania.

RW

Really?

TA

Yes. Now Im not going to tell you how I know that.

RW

Okay.

TA

But Im going to tell you that that is the absolute truth.

RW

Right.

TA

You know.

39 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

RW

I dont doubt it.

TA

Im not telling you that I can raise three hundred


thousand dollars in a week, Im telling you that we have
three hundred thousand dollars on hand.

RW

Right.

TA

In excess of that.

RW

Mm hmm.

TA

Much more in excess of that. You know its just, its just
trying to find the right relationships, the right friendships
to work with. Like for example, we have the client in
Philadelphia. Theyre building a collection agency.

RW

Right.

TA

You have a relationship with the Parking Authority if we


can look at a proposal.

RW

Mm hmm.

TA

To the Parking Authority, if we can look at some ways to


help them, and eventually since youre supporting our
cause, we want to support your cause. You know?

RW

Okay, okay, okay.

TA

And thats not quid pro quo. Thats just common sense.

RW

Right.

TA

Do you think that you could lend some attention to that


issue?

RW

Yeah. Sure, sure. I just gotta make sure that I get it right.

TA

And, and, the, the thing is, you know, look at the way the
president raised money. He had a great youth presence,
40 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

he had a great internet presence. Right. [01:33:24]


RW

Right.

TA

And, and the piece that nobody really looks at is when


you raise certain amounts of money through very direct
means and theyre small amounts. In other words, it
shows that you have real depth.

RW

Mmm hmm.

TA

With your constituents.

RW

Yeah.

TA

Small amounts of money, five thousand here, twenty-five


hundred dollars here, but if you do four twenty-five
hundred dollar fundraisers, one a month or one every two
months, eventually people will say to themselves, even if
youre trough of money isnt that great, they will say he
has great support because when you look at the campaign
finance report, you see you know four hundred donations.

RW

Yeah.

TA

Four hundred contributions.


These are important
benchmarks and its not one group giving you fifty
thousand dollars. Its not that. Its your people helping
you.

RW

Right.

TA

I can handle that.

RW

Yeah.

TA

But, but again, its, its whether or not youre willing. Ill
put forth the effort man, you know Im Indian, Im, I work
like heck.

RW

Yeah.
41 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

TA

You know.

RW

Yeah.

TA

I will help you.

RW

(U/I) the person I just got (U/I) having a drink with was
Indian.

TA

She was Indian?

RW

Yeah, yeah.

TA

From where?

RW

Ah, I forgot (U/I) talking (U/I) stuff about the history.

TA

Oh American Indian.

RW

American Indian.

TA

I see.

RW

(U/I) I go from one meeting with one lady to another I


keep forgetting (U/I).

TA

[1:35:10] The key to all of this, and again, there, there,


there are only three things that you have to take a look at:
What is the issue?

RW

Mm hmm.

TA

How can we impact the issue?

RW

Mm hmm.

TA

And what are the resources that they bring the client, and
what are the resources that we have already in place?

RW

Okay.
42 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

TA

In terms of relationships.

RW

Mm hmm.

TA

This is not rocket science. It is not a math equation. It is


simple good political common sense. Thats it.

RW

How does the (U/I) you want to talk about the contract
(U/I)?

TA

Oh.

RW

(U/I).

TA

Okay. Um, Im going to answer that question with just


one word. The word is proposal.

RW

Mm hmm.

TA

We submit a pa--, a five page document that outlines


what the Parking Authority does in terms of their
responsibilities, how they collect money, what are some of
the ineffectiveness policies or the inefficient policies that
make them not as productive or as revenue efficient as
they ought to be and then look to the future. How can we
so, help them solve the problem, how can we continue to
impact the pro--, the problem in a positive way and then
at the end of the day, how would the Parking Authority
recognize greater revenue? Because once they recognize
greater revenue, they less dependent on, on different
subsidies. They also have a greater say at that point in
their own inner workings and beyond that, look at what,
lets just look at the good political common sense. We
send in the proposal, we give it to you, you take it to
them. Vince Fenerty looks like a super star. What do you
think hes going to do? Hes going to return that favor and
even if he doesnt, we will.

RW

Yeah.

43 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

TA

You know.

RW

So is that kind of money still out there that they havent


collected (U/I).

TA

Yes.

RW

Are they not effective? Or? Or (U/I).

TA

It, its, its not that theyre not effective, ahm Ive written
three collection manuals over you know ten years or so in
the business. One of the things that people do not
understand is the difference between servicing and
collection. If we were to be able to get our client involved
at an earlier stage in the process, we would be able to
impact the revenue faster. You know in terms of what we
could collect. Lets say that the ticket is not, theyre not
going to start collection after the first thirty days, or fortyfive days. We would have a servicing contract where were
working in tandem with the efforts of the Parking
Authority. And then collect or put the person on a
payment plan. Which makes, it makes good sense, the
Parking Authority doesnt have to put out any resources.
Ron this doesnt cost them a dime.

RW

Hmm.

TA

You know, yes?.

???

(U/I) another glass of wine?

RW

No, Im done.

???

Done?

RW

(U/I) could I have coffee?

???

You would like coffee?

RW

Yeah.

44 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

???

Are you finished with this or are you still (U/I)?

RW

(U/I). I cant eat anymore but its too good to throw away.

???

(U/I) box it up?

RW

I think that is a great idea.

???

Okay, and Ill get your coffee.

RW

(U/I).

???

(U/I).

RW

That was really good.

???

(U/I).

TA

It was a good choice.

RW

(U/I).

TA

So, so, the collection thing is one piece. Okay, well bench
that for now. It, dont, what I would say to you and Im
certainly only making a suggestion.

RW

Mmm hmm.

TA

Think about what we talked about. Let me bring some


resources to the table. You know give me the opportunity
to do that and if the Marcellus Shale. [01:39:53]

RW

(U/I).

TA

Look the Marcellus Shale project, I know a lot more about


it than most people. Why, because weve been working on
this thing for over a year.

RW

Oh.

TA

We knew what was going to happen. Right.


45 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

RW

Yeah.

TA

Give me the opportunity to talk to those folks.

RW

Mmm hmm.

TA

And then lets figure out who we might be able to work


with see the point of a lobbyist at least in this particular
situation is to get all the knowledge you can and at the
same time, bring some resources but still be insulated
from the process.

RW

Okay.

TA

Dont let them waste your time.

RW

Okay.

TA

You know.

RW

Okay.

TA

This is how its done in DC.

RW

Mmm hmm.

TA

Thats why they call us the third halves. Im not kidding


you.

RW

(U/I). Oh boy. (U/I).

TA

Mmm hmm.

RW

[1:40:42] (U/I) going back to the Parking Authority is that


something you said you would actually have to give to
Vincent if the meeting is arranged or give it to me in
advance?

TA

I think that you, here, heres the thing. If you, if I give it


to you, just be our point person, make sure Vince does
46 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

what he says hes going to do.


RW

Hmm.

TA

You know, just arrange it. And in addition, because you


were a supervisor, you know how much money they dont
get paid. You can talk to him if you have that kind of
relationship.

RW

Oh yeah.

TA

Do you think you do?

RW

Yeah.

TA

Okay.

RW

Vince and I can talk about anything, man. (U/I) just a


manager, but he wasnt like that when I left there. He was
okay. Shrewd guy, knows all the politicians, but hes
shrewd. Very shrewd. Oh, thank you.

TA

You want some dessert? Hmm hmm. Take this as well.

RW

(U/I).

???

Would you like yours boxed? No?

RW

(U/I) tell I love food?

???

(U/I).

RW

(U/I). I better not.

TA

Heres the cream.

RW

Okay.

???

(U/I).

RW

No (U/I).
47 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

???

No, youre good?.

RW

(U/I).

TA

Oh yeah.

RW

We dont have any meetings (U/I). Im telling you, man, I


got more, I dont know whats going on, man. (U/I) has
really increased, especially during the time, I mean he was
always there, Frank Oliver (U/I). I remember a guy whos
now a lobbyist (U/I) I remember one day I was there and
he said you dont dress like the rest of those guys (U/I)
but I was pretty nervous, he said I like the way you dress.
I said okay.

TA

I love that tie.

RW

Yeah, I know I get a lot of compliments (U/I) what he was


saying was that I tried, I try to dress (U/I) a little
contemporary but ahm (U/I) Frank Oliver (U/I) person
who is not trusting and ahm (U/I) cause hes been around
for a long time (U/I). But hes still there (U/I) he said
theres a lot of places you could go (U/I) since I became
chair of the Black Caucus (U/I) now that hes in
leadership, how that leadership in the democratic caucus.
I have a leadership role within the caucus now theyre
coming to me too they want my input in decisions theyre
making. So, Im looking at them like, wow.
I mean this
major ahm this is: the Capital. You understand? This is
the Capital. Ive been part of the leadership meetings, to
talk about stuff, the decisions they would make, and they
want my input before they made them. And then I sit
there yesterday to watch all those (U/I) they showed up
they stayed and wanted to be seen you know what I mean.
(U/I) I mean, damn. Im sitting there talking, cameras
rolling. You know, we on TV talking about the events were
on (U/I) look at the amount of people here from the
General Assembly whove come to be a part of our event.
Everybody start applauding. And they all stood there
smiling. Democrats and Republicans (U/I) wanted to be a
48 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

part of it. You know hes one of those fanatical guys, but
hes a majority leader. He was there, he spoke. You know
other people wanted to speak, wanted to be recognized.
Im telling you I looked at that as kind of a golden
opportunity and then I thought about the thing earlier
that same day I was at a press conference (U/I) you know,
over me, and I say this not to be bragging or boasting, but
obviously there was something happening here that could
be great you know (U/I) use this support to be able to get
some things done. Okay it, cause its very real. And
sometimes (U/I) but I know that all I gotta do is maintain
it and at the right time things will happen. As for me
right now, its a matter about building it, maintaining it,
and sustaining it. And then things when the opportunity
comes, it will already be there and it can be put to use
(U/I) because the relationships are definitely there.
TA

Ill share something with you.

RW

Mmm hmm.

TA

Theres a time and a season.

RW

Mmm.

TA

For almost everything.

RW

Right. Right. Exactly. I agree with that.

TA

You have done many, many good things. And as a result


of that, people recognize your heart.

RW

Yeah.

TA

They recognize the compassion that you have not just for
your constituency.[01:47:23]

RW

Mmm hmm.

TA

But for the things that ail them every hour of each day of
their life.
49 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

RW

Right.

TA

Heres the other issue. It also affects their children.

RW

Right.

TA

You know as a champion of the ex-offender program,


everybody knows that you are working tirelessly to reduce
the recidivism rate.

RW

Right.

TA

Everybody knows that you are behind education.

RW

Mmm hmm.

TA

[1:47:54] Everybody knows that youve done what you


could do while on Appropriation to help support the
financial cause of most of these other issues cause you
got to get the money.

RW

Right.

TA

Okay. In order to, you talked about building it, so youve


built it. Lets talk about the secondary portion of that.
Lets talk about sustaining it.

RW

Right.

TA

You need resources to sustain it. And Im telling you, as


sure as Im sitting here--

RW

Mm hmm.

TA

I would like to be part of that equation.

RW

Okay.

TA

You know.

50 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

RW

Okay, you said that more than once. You said that long
years ago.

TA

Ive been telling you this for a long time.

RW

(U/I). This is nothing new.

TA

Right.

RW

Youve been saying this you talk about my campaign care,


and all this stuff and youd like to be a part of that. You
know so its, its like a lot, a lot of it into the works, you
know, its like you put together all the ingredients of what
it takes in order to produce the final product. I guess, uh,
Ive been able, maybe just, you know, without even
knowing, been able to do the things to lay the foundation.

TA

Mm hmm.

RW

You know, now its, now its, now its time to get to the
next level.

TA

And, and heres the other thing that I wanted to inject into
this conversation about the Parking Authority. It has
been losing money for a long time.

RW

Really?

TA

Yes. Ahm.

RW

Because of people not paying or?

TA

Well they lost a lot of money because their collection


efforts have not evolved with the present economic issues
that people are facing. I mean youre not going to pay a
parking fine for fifteen dollars, or twenty five dollars or
forty-three dollars if you have to give your daughter or
your son money to go to school.

RW

Right.

51 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

TA

Youre just not going to do that. So part of the effort


thats required is for the Parking Authority to take a much
more sensitive stand and look at working with the
customer as opposed to not working with the customer.

RW

Yeah.

TA

And again, there are not that many solutions to this, its
either youre getting paid or youre not. And the way to
ensure that youre getting paid is by entrusting something
that important to people who are truly professionals.
[01:50:25].

RW

Mmm hmm.

TA

In that industry. You know. Ron this is not some small


amount of money. I mean I remember twelve years ago
when I was EVP for St. Hill, we were looking at fourteen
million dollars. Its not some small thing and thats just
in tickets.

RW

Mmm hmm.

TA

What about the penalties, what about the interest, what


about the actual ah judgments that sometimes youre able
to get especially if the amount thats owed is over a
specific amount of money. You know.

RW

Yeah.

TA

You need to ah again you I hope you, you understand that


I come to you with nothing but sincerity and, and beyond
that, ah a certain amount of intuitiveness, and some
insight.

RW

Mmm hmm.

TA

I sincerely want you to be successful. I do.

RW

You do.

52 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

TA

Ive been telling you this for six years.

RW

Yeah.

TA

Now.

RW

Yeah. Yeah.

TA

I, I mean Ive been telling you this since I was thin.

RW

I know.

TA

You know.

RW

Yeah.

TA

Ive been telling you this when Im, when up to three


hundred pounds and now Im down.

RW

Yeah.

TA

To, two, two twenty five. Im still telling you this.

RW

(U/I).

TA

Almost. Yeah. But look man, you have three lunches a


day, I mean you, you know. This is not something new
were talking about sir.

RW

What are you at now?

TA

Two twenty five. I lost seventy-five pounds.

RW

(U/I).

TA

And then see the thing about it is if you can encourage,


endorse and mentor somebody else, that makes sense too.

RW

Okay.

TA

You know.

But well talk about that later on down the


53 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

road.
RW

Okay.

TA

Excuse me dear. Can I have the check please. You know.


Ahm are you going to be in the office on Friday?

RW

(U/I).

TA

Alright. Look this is what I suggest we do if you agree


with me, then tell me yes or no. Give me two or three
days to put together ahm a three-pager that you could
just sort of read through.

RW

Okay.

TA

And maybe you can discuss it with whoever you need to


and then well come back to the table. And the other
piece of that, thats the A part of what I want to ask you,
the secondary part is think about giving me the
opportunity to work along side some of the folks. Im a
registered lobbyist, Ron. Nothing but good is going to
come out of that. Work with them and then bring those
issues to you. I do that for other people.

RW

Okay.

TA

You know what I mean.

RW

Mmm hmm.

TA

Because how many lobbyists from Philadelphia are there?


Not that many. Less than twenty. You know the majority
of the folks, the majority of the opinion that youre going
to have ah exists within the confines of Harrisburg and
western Pennsylvania. [01:53:13]

RW

A lot of problems too (U/I) even lobbying firms (U/I).

TA

Mmm hmm.

54 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

RW

(U/I).

TA

Right. Somebody you know for Gods sake. I just need a


receipt dear.

RW

(U/I).

TA

Can I have this one? And some change. Thank you.

RW

(U/I) I told people, ahm, it was one of my colleagues (U/I)


other peoples opinions (U/I) probe with Jewell.

TA

Yes.

RW

(U/I) said to me.

TA

Yes.

RW

(U/I) He aint shit, you know, cause he saw us talking


over Louises house.

TA

Right.

RW

You know, and this (U/I) guy, you know hes under
investigation. First of all, he talked to some people that,
under investigation, probably talking about his
relationships thats under investigation (U/I) since Gail,
Mike Veon these are all people that he was connected with
(U/I).

TA

Right.

RW

You know?

TA

Right.

RW

He was down there kissing Bill Dewees butt.

TA

Mmm hmm.

RW

(U/I).
55 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

TA

Mmm hmm.

RW

(U/I). You listen to me I listen to you (U/I) you gotta


watch the people who youre listening to (U/I) crazy stuff
(U/I) so he come to me (U/I) who you talking to? You the
one in the papers (U/I) casino up there in Mount Airy
(U/I) people wondering, people talk wondering how he
keeps getting out of these jams (U/I) grand-jury
investigation and everything else he keeps getting out of
this shit (U/I) free walking again. Makes you wonder.

TA

You dont have to wonder.

RW

Yeah I know.

TA

Alright. You dont have, Ron, can I say something.

RW

Yeah.

TA

To you.

RW

Yeah.

TA

Thank you so much dear.

???

Youre very welcome. Well thank you gentleman. Have a


great (U/I).

RW

(U/I).

TA

That situation that occurred more than, almost two years


or little more than two years ago. Let me tell you this. We
had a situation where over a million dollars a year was
coming in. Right. From different places, going into one
account. So when the monies being dispersed, the funds
are coming out.

RW

Yeah.

TA

Right. My name, Im the owner. [01:56:30]


56 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

RW

Oh.

TA

Who else are they going to come for? Nobody ever called
me and said hey look you didnt pay these folks. Never
did. Theres a reason for that. The other thing Jewell
should look at is that Ive been in Philadelphia since I was
sixteen years old. I went to school here. Ive worked
here. I worked very hard here. Ah Ive achieved and Im
not tooting my own horn here, but I think my English is
okay. Ive made some friends. Ive accomplished some
level of success. At times, youre going to find yourself in
a difficult predicament and if you have some honor and
some integrity, the truth will come out. And thats what
happened and that is the only reason that my liberty was
not compromised. You can look at the bank statements
and you can see it. And the other thing I will say to you is
this, he said this about me to someone who is very close
to me. And thats in leadership. And they just sort of
looked at him and moved their face. Cause everybody
knows what Jewell is.

RW

Everybody knows.

TA

I am a registered lobbyist. Do you think they would ever


let me be a registered lobbyist if I was going to be charged
or if I had a felony conviction?

RW

Yeah, yeah.

TA

Is he crazy?

RW

Yeah, but (U/I) theres such a thing as reason, and theres


such a thing as rhyme. Hes not giving a lot of reason
(U/I). It has nothing to do with (U/I).

TA

True. [01:58:16]

RW

It has everything to do with what he wants to do (U/I).

TA

Theres also that little situation he is sort of jealous about.


57 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

RW

Right.

TA

You know. Ahm look Ive raised a lot of money for folks in
my life. I have done fairly well.

RW

Right.

TA

I am not forty years old. On paper, Im a millionaire. Im


not boasting.

RW

Right.

TA

Im not boasting.

RW

Right.

TA

But theres a reason that my life didnt change. You know


its because my family, weve achieved a certain level of
success. Weve worked very hard. Sometimes theres
nothing you can do about that unguarded moment. Ive
been a lobbyist for five years. Of course theyre going to
look at you. Youre raising millions of doll, we have
money. What do you think is going to happen?

RW

Right.

TA

And were not giving Jewell any. Could you imagine if we


invested three hundred thousand dollars in his
neighborhood.

RW

Mmm hmm.

TA

And did not ask him for anything.

RW

Yeah.

TA

I dont have to. I understand the law. I understand how


to move things around. I understand how to make things
occur.

58 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

RW

The only reason I say it is because, I mean, this guy, look


you aint the first person.

TA

Mmm hmm.

RW

(U/I). This is, this is, this is, this is what his options
going to be (U/I).
Right.

TA
RW

This is what his options are: hes either gonna look at it


and come and intercede in the conversation to see if he
can direct it, or look at it and talk down about it because
he cant direct it, or hes gonna try to spook you in a way
that makes you feel as though you should decline it. Ive
watched him. I watched everything they could do. Its
never one of support. Its never where he sees the
resources and says (U/I) thats the way were going to
solve it, you know lets try to make it work for both of us,
he would never do that.

TA

Right.

RW

Okay, he would only want to see it work for himself. (U/I)


its gonna be something bad. Hes not the kind of person
that try to talk to somebody (U/I) shes a bitch. Wait, wait
a minute ago you was in love with me now all of sudden
since you cant have your way now youre a bitch. So for
him its that kind of way.

TA

Ill tell you something else. Him and his colleague from
North Philadelphia, I mean Ron Brooks, I think I shared
this with you. Im going to tell you again. Just so that I
can refresh your memory. While I was at the law firm, I
was making hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Im
expensive.

RW

Mmm hmm.

TA

Always have been. But I do the work.

RW

Yeah.
59 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

TA

They wanted me to raise eighteen million dollars for


Berene Institute.
Okay.
Ahm there, there, ah Tim
somebody, the accountant, and Spencer.
Norman
Spencer.

RW

(U/I).

TA

You know, you know, you know.

RW

Yeah.

TA

They just didnt want to pay me. And Shirley and I, I love
her to death.

RW

Mmm hmm.

TA

We got into a tiff. Jewell was part of that. Because I was


not going to let anyone run me. Not going to let that
happen. I cant. Were in business. Beyond that, I felt
like I had been loyal. I had been ah a real ahm friend to,
to, to those folks in North Philadelphia. It, because thats
where I was raised. Thats what I know.

RW

Mmm hmm.

TA

But at the end of the day, you cannot keep doing the
same things expecting different results. I was very loyal to
them and the results were negative.

RW

Thats right.

TA

So I have learned to branch out you know. Not just


branch out but to help out you know. Thats one of the
reasons why I started looking for clients outside of, of
Philadelphia.

RW

Okay.

TA

Because there are people who need my help, who simply


do not understand the process. Not only do they not
60 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

understand the process, they dont understand politics.


RW

Right.

TA

You know a shift in policy can create a real opportunity.


Or it can take away an opportunity.

RW

Right.

TA

You know Im, Im not going to sit down and even you
know try to understand why Jewell would say things
about me to somebody in leadership like you or my other
friend you know. But I understand why. You know, I
understand why. See he, he doesnt have his own money.

RW

Mmm hmm.

TA

So he has to go around and create value and create favors


and then lie to people about what he can and cant do.

RW

Right. [02:03:16]

TA

Everybody I talked to said hey look. If, if youre innocent,


youre going to be okay, and theyre going to give you a
lobbying license and youre going to be fine.

RW

Yeah.

TA

And thats exactly what happened.

RW

Right.

TA

You know. Beyond that, I didnt lose my name. I mean


there were some people who said hey, maybe. I dont
know. Maybe he did this, I dont know. But the people
who really know me, they say wait a second. Ty got a lot of
money. He dont need them. What is that? You know.
Look man at the end of the day, Im just looking to be
helpful.

RW

Okay.
61 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

TA

And to be a resource to the people who see me as such.

RW

Okay.

TA

You know. Like I said, it would take me, maybe like three
days.

RW

Mmm hmm.

TA

To put together something for you.

RW

Okay.

TA

You know.

RW

(U/I).

TA

And then well go and.

RW

(U/I).

TA

Ill give it to you. [2:04:07] Let me ask you this, would


Vince be the person that would make the decision on
something like this?

RW

Yeah.

TA

Oh, okay.

RW

At the Parking Authority?

TA

Mm hmm.

RW

Hes the man. (U/I) you know. I mean he had a sponsor


at one time that, um, you know (U/I) know what he was
doing, and that was John Perzel.

TA

Right.

RW

But I dont know what was going on with that now (U/I).
62 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

TA

Right.

RW

(U/I) but the Republicans that are in charge now.

TA

Mm hmm.

RW

Are (U/I) the Parking Authority whats going on there


(U/I).

TA

If Vince is the person that would make the decision. I will


make sure that it is a good decision all around.

RW

(U/I) a guy named Bill (U/I) two guys (U/I) the top dogs
there. They got this other guy there named (U/I), but hes
not over Vince, he just took over the way they pay the
tickets (U/I) got jammed up in that investigation.

TA

Mmm hmm.

RW

That she brought on herself.

TA

Im not laughing but you can certainly appreciate.

RW

I know.

TA

The comedy of it all.

RW

Yeah. (U/I).

TA

And, and, and the thing is, he moves quickly, we move


quickly. You know.

RW

Yes.

TA

And if hes somebody that you have a relationship with,


this is the business of politics. This is how we work it
through, and again, you know.

RW

(U/I).

63 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

TA

I cant.

RW

Thats a (U/I) relationship (U/I).

TA

Sure.

RW

(U/I) times that he was in my house (U/I).

TA

Mmm hmm.

RW

(U/I) I got his number on speed dial, Ill give him a call.
(U/I) no knowledge of this stuff, man, and he was able to
act quickly and swiftly (U/I).

TA

Wow.

RW

(U/I) this is Philadelphia (U/I). So he knows that. (U/I).

TA

Right.

RW

The other one is, of course, Dwight, (U/I) I mean you dont
even see him on the floor (U/I).

TA

You have some very how can I describe them, anxious


friends of Dwight right now. They are very anxious. And
its not in a good way.

RW

Yeah.

TA

Yes. You know. Ahm again you know, a time and a


season for everything.

RW

Yeah.

TA

And his time and season you know Im not saying that it
is expired completely but for right now, ahm you know
you have to be that person that everybody knows you to
be. Be that leader that everybody expects you to be and
they know it.

RW

Yeah.
64 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

TA

You know. You, you, you will, help you know. You will
help people look at things a little bit differently and for
that, they will grateful. [02:07:50]

RW

Yeah.

TA

As our clients will be grateful you know.

RW

Okay. Well, I appreciate your conversation.

TA

Ron, I appreciate your time.

RW

Politics, man, you know always factors in. Its always


better to get a second opinion an outside opinion.

TA

Absolutely.

RW

(U/I).

TA

And, and the


reach out to
caucus to get
aisles. I can
out.

RW

Okay.

TA

You know cause were all lobbyists. You know. (U/I) you
know. So I will call you in the morning.

RW

Alright.

TA

Alright and Ill be in Philadelphia tomorrow afternoon.

RW

Yeah, me too.

TA

Ahm.

RW

Oh, this lady is great, man.

other thing, you know, I could, you could


you know ahm some of the folks in the
information or some of the folks across the
reach out to folks nationwide and figure it

65 | P a g e

T-46 February 9, 2011

TA

Ha ha.

RW

If we come

TA

Yes, yes.

RW

Back here again I want her to be our server. Make sure.

TA

Okay. Great. Make sure. [2:08:42] Um, I actually have


another meeting now, um, but I will call you in the
morning, and then look, just tell Vince, you know?

RW

Right.

TA

Explain the situation.

RW

Right.

TA

Alright?

RW

Okay.

TA

Alright sir.

RW

Alright.

TA

Ill see you soon.

RW

Alright.

TA

Thank you.

???

Thank you.

TA

Thank you dear. Do you have your phone, Ron? Ron?


Do you have your phone? Did you pick it up?

RW

Yeah I did.

TA

Okay. Let me just.


Thank you.

Okay, it looks okay.

66 | P a g e

Good night.

T-46 February 9, 2011

RW

Does this door work?

TA

Yeah its open. Um, Ill call you in the morning.

RW

Okay.

TA

And Ill see you on Thursday.

RW

Alright.

TA

Ill bring something for you.

RW

Alright.

TA

Alright. Thank you sir.

RW

Thank you.

TA

Youre welcome.

RW

(U/I).

TA

And look. You know the truth is the next time I come up
here, well go to ah McGraths or the Firehouse.

RW

Okay.

TA

Alright. Alright.

RW

(U/I).

TA

See you now. Ill call you first thing in the morning.

SSSAT

The device is being deactivated again todays date is


Wednesday, February the 9th, year 2011. Time is 21:05
hundred hours.

67 | P a g e

Tape%52(%February%14,%2011%

CLAUDE%THOMAS:%%Pennsylvania%Office%of%Attorney%General,%Badge%Number%118%%A%Certification%
Number%is%A1418.%Today's%date%is%Monday,%February%14th,%year(2010.%Current%time%is%19:22%
hours.%This%recording%device%will%be%placed%on%CI%2010(01%in%reference%to%investigation%number%
36(622.%%CI%will%be%having%a%recorded%communications%with%Rep%RW%and%within%the%confines%of%
the%city%of%Harrisburg,%and%County%of%Dauphin%County.%This%tape%will%be%deactivated%at%a%later%
time%by%myself.%%
%
TYRON%ALI:%Hi%there%
HOSTESS:%Hello,%how%are%you?%
TYRON%ALI:%Two%for%dinner%please%
HOSTESS:%Two%for%dinner.%Did%you%make%a%reservation?%
TYRON%ALI:%No,%I%did%not%
HOSTESS:%Hey,%going%crazy%
[3:35]%
TYRON%ALI:%So%I%see.%Thank%you.%
HOSTESS:%And%you'll%be%able%to%see%who's%coming%in%the%door%this%way,%ok?%
TYRON%ALI:%Yes,%thank%you.%
HOSTESS:%And%Megan%will%be%your%server.%
TYRON%ALI:%Thank%you.%
HOSTESS:%Alright%
TYRON%ALI:%Hello%Megan,%how%are%you?%Again.%
FEMALE%SERVER:%I'm%good,%how%are%you?%
TYRON%ALI:%How%are%you%doing?%
FEMALE%SERVER:%I'm%very%good.%How%are%you?%
TYRON%ALI:%Good.%Same%dinner%guest,%I'm%just%waiting%for%him%to%arrive.%
FEMALE%SERVER:%Okay.%What%would%you%like%to%drink?%
TYRON%ALI:%Can%I%have%a%Diet%Coke?%
FEMALE%SERVER:%Yes.%
TYRON%ALI:%Can%I%have%another%napkin,%please?%
1%
%

Tape%52(%February%14,%2011%

FEMALE%SERVER:%Yea.%
TYRON%ALI:%Thank%you.%
[4:14%%pause]%
12:21:00%
TYRON%ALI:%Hey%there,%sir.%How%are%ya?%
RON%WATERS:%Alright.%
TYRON%ALI:%How%ya%doing?%Good?%
RON%WATERS:%Yea.%
TYRON%ALI:%Aw,%long%day?%You%look%great.%Nice%tie.%
RON%WATERS:%(laughs)%Thank%you.%
TYRON%ALI:%You're%always%dressed%so%well.%
RON%WATERS:%Man...%
TYRON%ALI:%What%happened%today?%
RON%WATERS:%I'm%trying%to%represent,%that's%all.%
TYRON%ALI:%Oh,%ok.%
RON%WATERS:%(Laughs)%yea.%
TYRON%ALI:%All%the%well(dressed%gentlemen%of%Philadelphia.%
RON%WATERS:%Yea.%
TYRON%ALI:%How%you%doing,%you%alright?%
RON%WATERS:%I'm%alright,%how%you%been?%
TYRON%ALI:%Well....busy.%
RON%WATERS:%What%time%you%get%up%here?%
TYRON%ALI:%This%morning?%%
RON%WATERS:%Oh%you%live%around%here?%
TYRON%ALI:%Yea,%my%grandmother,%she%passed%away%around%2:30%this%morning%and%I%had%some%
things%so%organized%that%it%would%affect%us%if%I%did%not%do%it%so,%you%know%we%had%to%be%up%here%
all%day.%But%its%ok,%God's%taking%care%of%her%now,%man.%You%know?%It's%okay.%
FEMALE%SERVER:%Hey,%how%are%you?%
2%
%

Tape%52(%February%14,%2011%

RON%WATERS:%Hi.%Good%how%you%doing?%
FEMALE%SERVER:%What%can%I%get%you%to%drink?%
RON%WATERS:%I'll%have%a,%how%about%Riesling?%
FEMALE%SERVER:%Riesling?%
RON%WATERS:%Yes.%
FEMALE%SERVER:%Ok.%
RON%WATERS:%Yea,%Riesling.%Thats%always%good.%Whatever%man,%they%probably%full.%
TYRON%ALI:%There's%a%big%crowd%at%the%firehouse%too.%
RON%WATERS:%Is%it?%OK.%
TYRON%ALI:%They%got%this%whole%Shale%situation%going%on.%
RON%WATERS:%Ok.%Who?%
TYRON%ALI:%Marcellus%Shale.%
RON%WATERS:%Oh%yea?%
TYRON%ALI:%I%just%came%away,%I%just%met%with%some%folks%from%the%Auditor%General's%office,%some%
folks%from%the%House,%couple%of%Senators,%tomorrow%I%think%Vince%is%having%his%little%thing.%
RON%WATERS:%What%is%he%having?%
TYRON%ALI:%A%fundraiser,%here%in%the%morning%at%7:30.%I%don't%think%we're%going%to%participate%
only%because%we%have%our%guy%already.%
RON%WATERS:%Ok,%(laugh)%he%had%a%press%conference%today..%
TYRON%ALI:%What%happened?%Really,%for%what?%
RON%WATERS:%It%was%a%press%conference%on...uh...oh,%the%agenda.%The%agenda.%You%know,%some%
of%the%things%that%they%value%%
[14:42]%
TYRON%ALI:%It%terms%of%what?%
RON%WATERS:%You%know,%they%know%the%cuts%are%coming%%
TYRON%ALI:%%Yes.%
RON%WATERS:%%And%so%they%want%to%talk%about%stuff%that%they%want%us%see%us%work%on%jobs,%ah%
they%want%to%see%us%work%on%uh%campaign%reform,%they%talked%about,%they%talked%about,%it%was%
like%criticizing%the%Republicans%for%not%moving%on%certain%things.%%
3%
%

Tape%52(%February%14,%2011%

TYRON%ALI:%Mm%Hmm%
RON%WATERS:%And%what%they%had%moved%on%so%far,%is%not%important%to%the%people%who%
represent,%you%know%the%corporate%folk.%
TYRON%ALI:%Sure.%
RON%WATERS:%All%right.%
[15:20]%
TYRON%ALI:%But%you%know,%at%the%end%of%the%day%you%have%to%be%able%to%extract%value%from%
things%that%you%would%not%normally%associate%with%having%value.%I'll%give%you%an%example.%Did%
you%get%a%chance%to%talk%to%Vince,%you%didn't?%
RON%WATERS:%I%haven't%talked%to%him.%Every%now%and%then,%he%needs%me%for%something,%he'll%
call%me.%Or%I'll%call%if%I%need%him%for%something.%Every%time%I%call%him,%he%be%like,%you%need%me%for%
something.%You%know.%He%calls%me%every%now%and%then,%rarely%he'll%call.%He'll%call%me%for,%he'll,%
you%wanna%talk%about%the%ah,%about%the%fact%that%he%has...but%how%much%money%you%said%about%
that%they%have%in%uncollected%money?%
TYRON%ALI:%In%2%years%it%was%1.7%million.%
RON%WATERS:%Ok.%
TYRON%ALI:%That's%just%two%years.%
RON%WATERS:%Ok.%
TYRON%ALI:%And%that's%what%they%know%about.%
RON%WATERS:%Ok.%
TYRON%ALI:%You%know?%
RON%WATERS:%1.7%in%2%years?%
TYRON%ALI:%Yes.%
RON%WATERS:%Uncollected?%
TYRON%ALI:%Mm%Hmm.%Those%are%the%actual....they're%not%audited,%they're%unaudited%but%it's%
from%ParenteBeard,%the%auditor%that%was%assigned%to%them.%%
RON%WATERS:%Hmm.%So,%I%mean%so%what,%so%this%is%money%that%is%uncollected%on%top%of%the%
normal%collections%agency?%
TYRON%ALI:%Yes.%

4%
%

Tape%52(%February%14,%2011%

RON%WATERS:%Ok.%So%is%that...I'm%sure%the%number%has%to%be%higher%than%that,%the%total%amount%
they%are%owed.%%
TYRON%ALI:%Of%course.%
RON%WATERS:%Normally%people%don't%pay.%
TYRON%ALI:%And,%you%know,%the%truth%of%the%matter%is,%beyond%what%is,%look,%you've%got%to%take%a%
look%at%the%categories,%right?%So%you%might%have%tickets%and%fines,%you%have%red%light%cameras,%
you%have%some%of%the%situations%with%handicap%parking,%those%types%of%tickets%for%privilege%
parking.%
RON%WATERS:%Right.%
TYRON%ALI:%Then%you've%got%the%parking%fines%for%different%types%of%events.%
RON%WATERS:%Right.%
TYRON%ALI:%Then%you've%got%the%penalties%associated%with%that.%And%then%you've%got%the%actual%
collections%from%the%kiosks.%Because%sometimes%you%may%get%a%parking%ticket,%there's%a%kiosk%
there,%you%may%have%a%ticket%there%plus%the%kiosk%fine,%but%I%don't%know%what%that%is...%
RON%WATERS:%Yea,%that's%about%$10%more.%
TYRON%ALI:%Yea%
RON%WATERS:%Over%a%regular%ticket.%
TYRON%ALI:%You%know,%so,%there%are%a%plethora%of%issues.%And%you%know,%the%thing%I%want%to%kind%
of%bring%home,%because%I%know%you%and%I%have%been%sort%of%talking%about%it.%Look(%I%have%that,%
with%you%that%being%able%to%sort%of%assist%you%in%what%your%vision%is,%you%know%what%I%mean?%And%
I%think%that,%I%think%that%it%would%be%helpful.%Besides%that,%you%have%to%almost,%you%know%the%
truth%of%the%matter%is,%all%of%the%non(profits%are%going%to%become%desperate%for%cash.%Period.%
Right?%Now,%if%we%were%to%be%able%to%look%at%the%non(profit%organization%that%did%something%
important,%I%mean,%Ron,%look,%at%the%end%of%the%day%I%see%you%as%a%partner%in%this,%whether%you%
agree%with%that%or%not.%That's%how%I%see%you.%Because%that's%the%only%way%you%can%make%actually%
make%this%make%sense.%You%can't%do%it%any%other%way.%And%now%it's%like,%ok?%What%are%the%things%
that%are%important%to%you?%I%understand%the%recidivism%issue,%what%else?%%
RON%WATERS:%Like,%oh,%I'm%willing%to%keep%this%until%next%week.%The%next%couple%days%I'm%gonna%
be%in%DC.%I%got%some%of%these%places%that%I%need%national,%the%National%Black%Caucus.%[inaudible]%
((%I%did%two,%one%on%immigration%reform,%the%other%one%on%dealing%with%the%cultural%competency%
and%continual%education%and%that's%gotten%national%attention.%So%the%health%disparity%issues%that%
become%more%my%issue,%of%course%we're%gonna%wanna%do,%I%mean%recidivism%yes,%and%the%fact%
that%the%justice%system%isn't%working.%Ok.%Because,%at%least%in%my%opinion,%because%prison%is%not%
solving%the%problem,%but%it's%finding%who,%([inaudible](%in%control.%
5%
%

Tape%52(%February%14,%2011%

20:06%
TYRON%ALI:%You%have%your%[inaudible](%
RON%WATERS:%Huh?%
TYRON%ALI:%You%have%your%(???)%
RON%WATERS:%Yea,%I%do.%%
TYRON%ALI:%What's%yours?%
RON%WATERS:%([inaudible](%
TYRON%ALI:%Oh%([inaudible](%
RON%WATERS:%Yea,%yea.%
20:19%
TYRON%ALI:%Um,%with%regard%to%recidivism,%what%do%you%see%in%terms%of%like,%how%things%are%
moving?%Do%you%see%them%moving%forward?%Do%you%see%progress%being%made?%
RON%WATERS:%Well%I%see%more%and%more%people,%I%was%at%the%installment%last%night%of%the%black%(
([inaudible]((%they%held%a%assembly%out%there.%They%had%a%guest%speaker%come%in%from%New%York,%
something%about%(([inaudible]((%different%religions%coming%together.%Not%religions,%but%different%
denominations%of%Christian%religions%coming%together.%And%then,%they%shape%the%conversation%
into%this%Michelle%Alexanders%book%The%New%Jim%Crow%and%we%want%to%do%that,%and%then%the%
Mayor%got%up%after%him%and%the%Mayor%was%doing%a%speech%but%the%Mayor%didnt%have%anything%
left%to%say%because%he%wanted%to%say%the%same%thing%this%guy%was%saying,%and%Arlene%Ackerman%
was%there,%the%school%superintendent%and%she%wanted%to%speak,%but%he%had%already%stole%her%
thunder%and%he%definitely%stole%my%thunder,%so%what%Im%saying%is%that%if%we%deliver%the%
president%say,%he%stole%her%thunder,%so%everybody%safety%be%now%looking%at%this%issue%as%
something%that%can%be%correct,%I%deal%with%it,%I%deal%with%it%because%its%a%public%safety%issue,%%to%
me,%and%if%we%don't%champion%this%in%terms%of%how%the%end%process,%or%at%least%be%crime(
stoppers,%you%got%to%be%crime(fighters.%I%believe%that%we're%not%really%serving%the%public%well.%
And%that's%where%I%come%from%on%that%issue.%But%the%health%imperative%is%another%issue%too%that%
seems%to%me%(([inaudible]((%this%last%trip%I%had%a%think%group,%um%a%think%tank%of%physicians%that%
work%with%me.%And%now%Im%looking%at,%I%need%somebody%to%tell%me%today,%the%things%I%probably%
need%to%get%a%legal%advisor%attached%to%what%I'm%doing%now%because%I'm%growing%and%more%
public%awareness,%I'm,%people%know%the%name%so,%they%hear%my%name,%people%know%who%I%am%so%
it's%not%like%I%don't%have%like,%I'm%not%saying%a%household%name,%but%I%do%have%some%level%of%
credibility.%%
[22:24]%

6%
%

Tape%52(%February%14,%2011%

TYRON%ALI:%Sure,%that's%beyond%credibility.%People%associate%you%with%the%cause.%You%know?%If,%
for%nothing%else,%certainly%the%ex(offender,%recidivism,%progressive%movement.%They%see%you%as%
such.%
RON%WATERS:%Right.%
TYRON%ALI:%But,%you%know?%At%the%end%of%the%day,%unless%you%are%able%to%look%at%working%with%
community%groups,%grassroots%organizations,%non(profits.%The%non(profit%piece,%as%I%shared%this%
with%you%a%couple%of%weeks%ago,%we%have%appropriated%money%by%committee.%Period.%Ok?%And%
the%easiest%way%to,%not%just%deal%with%the%issues%that%we%think%are%important,%but%to%deal%with%
the%money,%the%financing%behind%it.%I've%already%looked%at%the%best%possible%way%to%do%it,%and%for%
me%it's%a%non(profit.%You%know?%And%it's%like%trying%to%figure%out,%ok,%who%do%we%include%in%this?%
And%it's%like,%if%we%do%include%this%person,%what%does%that%person%bring%to%the%table%((%
RON%WATERS:%Right.%
TYRON%ALI:%((%for%us.%%%
RON%WATERS:%%Right.%
TYRON%ALI:%But%there%has%to%be%mutual%benefit.%You%know%at%the%end%of%the%day,%I%have%a%boss%
too.%You%know?%
RON%WATERS:%But%what%are%some%of%the%main%issues,%I%know%that%there's%one%with%the%
privatizing%of%the%state%stores((%
TYRON%ALI:%Yes.%
RON%WATERS:%That%that%is%important%to%you?%
TYRON%ALI:%The%Shale%issue%is%an%important%issue.%
RON%WATERS:%The%Shale%is?%In%what%way?%
TYRON%ALI:%Here's%the%thing:%They%put%together%a%Marcellus%Shale%coalition%that%has%full%
members%and%associate%members%and%we%would%like%to%bring%our%client%to%the%table,%perhaps%
not%now,%but%maybe%eventually,%as%a,%an%associate%member.%Beyond%that,%we%want%to%know%
what%else,%in%terms%of%opportunities,%lie%within.%And%I'll%give%you%an%example:%When%they%
continue%to%hydrofrack,%the%toxicity%that%comes%into%contact%with%well%water%is%incredible.%So%
maybe%we%could%create%a%non(profit%organization%to%make%people%aware%of%the%toxicity%of%the%
well%water%or%the%contamination%that%could%be%caused%from%hydro%fracking.%There,%Ron%look,%I%
could%paint%the%picture%a%hundred%million%ways,%it's%what%make%sense%for%us%now.%
RON%WATERS:%Ok.%

7%
%

Tape%52(%February%14,%2011%

TYRON%ALI:%%And%then%what%are%the%long(term%objectives%and%then%who%are%our%partners%in%this,%
you%know?%Who%are%our%people?%We%have%two%or%three%little%things%that%are%on%the%table,%I%
mean%this%is%not%a%little%thing%but%it's%on%the%table.%
RON%WATERS:%Right.%
TYRON%ALI:%You%know,%If%you%could%help%us%out%with%it%I%would%greatly%appreciate%it.%You%know%I%
would.%Because%getting%jobs%in%Philadelphia%is%a%critical%issue,%but%then%to%be%able%to%fund%the%
jobs,%that%is%also%the%critical%issue.%And%then%beyond%funding%the%jobs%and%getting%some%of%the%
some%some%some%project%together%to%be%able%to%do%those%things,%you%still%need%a%way%to%raise%
awareness.%And%the%only%way,%the%best%way,%the%most%reasonable%way%to%do%that%is%through%a%
non(profit%organization.%
RON%WATERS:%Ok.%
TYRON%ALI:%You%know?%
RON%WATERS:%Yea.%
TYRON%ALI:%Plus,%we%can%always%get%public%dollars%and,%and,%private%partnerships,%you%know.%Sort%
of%focusing%in%on%the%same%goals.%We%could%raise%money%privately,%we%could%raise%money%
publicly.%And%to%be%able%to%have,%you%know,%a%partner%in%that%deal,%that's,%that's%what%my%hand%is.%
I%told%you.%In%Harrisburg,%I%told%our%folks...%
RON%WATERS:%Right.%
TYRON%ALI:%You're%the%only%person%I'm%dealing%with.%You%know,%I'm%not%hop,%skipping%and%
jumping%around.%
[25:59]%
RON%WATERS:%Ok%then%let's%go%down,%dealing%with%the%Marcellus%Shale%thing,%now%because%that%
has,%you%know%that%is,%that%came%up%in%there%today%too%but%it%came%up%only%because%they're%
saying%that%there%has%to%be,%they%know%there's%gonna%be%jobs%there%but%it's%also%a%problem%with,%
is%the%Marcellus%Shale%being%taxed%appropriately%and%it's%like,%the%economic%environment%that%
we're%in%right%now,%we%should%be%certain%until%every%available%revenue%source%we%can....%
TYRON%ALI:%Well,%well%here's%a%question:%
RON%WATERS:%If%you%let%them%off%the%hook...%
TYRON%ALI:%You%can't%look%at%it%as%letting%them%off%the%hook.%Look,%there%are%a%lot%of%ways%you%
can%raise%money%and%not%quote(unquote%"let%them%off%the%hook".%Have%you%ever%heard%of%
something%called%DISC?%DISC%is%actually,%it's%an%acronym%for%a%surcharge%that%allows%((%Alright,%I'll%
give%you%a%better%example.%Somebody%in%Allegheny%County,%for%example,%passed%away%in%a%fire%
of%Bassets%clothing.%If%they%had%this%DISC%surcharge,%this%surcharge%would%have%paid%for%the%
installation%of%the%new%gas%pipes%and%that%is%something%that's%not%off%the%table,%as%of%yet,%with%
8%
%

Tape%52(%February%14,%2011%

the%Shale%project.%That's%a%very%good%way%to%increase%the%delivery%system,%it's%a%great%way%to%tax%
it,%and%it's%a%great%way%to%keep,%you%know,%beyond%the%creation%of%the%job,%now%you%can%actually%
sustain%it.%You%can%sustain%the%delivery%system,%you%know%what%I%mean?%And%you%can't%get%it%
without,%you%can't%get%the%natural,%you%can't%get%to%the%natural%gas%unless%you%have%the%right%
delivery%system%in%place.%Again,%that%leaves%an%opportunity%for%a%non(profit%organization%so%that%
you%can%actually%educate%the%consumers,%outside%of,%of,%you%know,%Philadelphia,%because%
Philadelphia%really%has%nothing%to%do%with%that.%In%the%counties,%you%can%educate%those%folks%
about%what's%going%on.%And%at%that%point,%you%can%actually%lobby%your%colleagues%for%that%cause.%%
RON%WATERS:%Oh%yea?%
TYRON%ALI:%And%if%we%can%put%money%behind%it%and%you,%see,%I%keep,%I%told%you%this%before.%If%
your%folks%see%you%as%the%go(to%guy,%nothing's%gonna,%nobody's%even%going%to%think%about%
running%against%you.%If%they%see%you,%and%let's%say%it's%someb%((%let's%pick%a%guy%like%Wheaton.%I%
know%he's%a%polite%guy,%ok.%But%let's%say%that%we've%already%appropriated%some%money%for%
education.%And%he%comes%to%you%and%he%says,%you%know,%Chairman,%look,%we%need,%we%need%
$1500%man%for%a%scholarship%to%send%this%kid%to%learn%how%to%be,%and%there%is%a%program,%to%
allow%young%men%and%women%to%learn%how%to%detoxify%the%water,%how%to%be%a%well%tester.%You%
know,%and%you%give%them%one%or%two%scholarships.%People%will%come%to%you%and%they'll%say,%
"Wow,%man!%That's%something%that%we%couldn't%get%before!"%
RON%WATERS:%Yea%
[28:52]%
TYRON%ALI:%The%the%it's%not%just%that%the%politics%have%changed,%the%opportunity%has%changed.%
We're%talking%about%80,000%new%jobs(%this%is%not%something%small.%
RON%WATERS:%No%
TYRON%ALI:%You%know?%
RON%WATERS:%No%
TYRON%ALI:%This%is%not%some%small%little%thing.%
[29:11]%
RON%WATERS:%We%want%to%be%able%to%take%a%tour%of%the%facility%and%arrange%this%with%the%
leadership%so%they%can%take%a%tour.%But%that's%really%on%my%way%out%to%(([inaudible]((%we%want%to,%
we%want%to%walk%through%there%around%1:30%(([inaudible]((%because%um,%the%northeastern%part%
of%the%state,%it's%going%to%be%a%lot%of%not%only%the%drilling,%but%also%some%development%out%there%
in%terms%of%building%the%hotels,%restaurants%and%other%commercial%merchants%because%of%the%
amount%of%employers,%employees%thats%gonna%be%out%there.%We%went%out%there%because%that's%
gonna%be%like%a%model%to%present%to%the%rest%of%the%um..But%I%want%to%do%it%because%as%the%
chairman%of%black%caucus,%I%also%want%to%be%able%to%encourage%people%of%Philadelphia%who%are%
9%
%

Tape%52(%February%14,%2011%

out%of%work,%so%they%see%that%as%an%employment%opportunity.%But%then%you%gotta%get%it%so%they%
are%properly%trained%and%educated%to%take%advantage%of%that,%cause%you%right,%80,000%jobs.%And%
it's%not%gonna%help%people%from%Philly.%
TYRON%ALI:%And%see%if%you%had%a%non(profit%organization%that%gives%these%folks%transportation,%
right?%
RON%WATERS:%Right.%
TYRON%ALI:%To%the%work%site,%from%the%work%site.%I'm%not%speaking%about%Marcellus%Shale,%I'm%
just%speaking%about%in%general,%transportation%is%going%to%be%key%and%you%know%there's%going%to%
be%money%in%that%department.%
RON%WATERS:%Right%
TYRON%ALI:%You%know.%Beyond%that,%education%is%always%interesting.%
RON%WATERS:%Right%
TYRON%ALI:%And%then%you've%got%education%and%awareness%about%the%pros%and%cons%of%hydro%
fracking.%
RON%WATERS:%OK.%
TYRON%ALI:%There%are%a%number%of%ways,%I%mean,%at%the%end%of%the%day%it's%whether%or%not%we%
have%the%support,%your%support,%needed%to%put%together%the%non(profit%and%then,%figure%out,%you%
know,%how%we%would%fund%it.%But%how%we%would%fund%it%is%not%as%important%as%whether%or%not%
you%would%support%it.%Especially%for%people%in%your%area.%
RON%WATERS:%Well,%why%couldn't%the%funding%come%from%Marcellus%Shale?%
TYRON%ALI:%Funding%can%come%from%wherever,%does%it%matter?%
RON%WATERS:%No,%Im%just%saying,%one%of%my%arguments%is%that%there%are%environmental%issues%
with%this,%with%this%project%that%Marcellus%Shale%should%be%required%to%pay%for.%%
TYRON%ALI:%I%agree%with%you.%I'm%gonna%show%you%something.%We've%got%right%now,%on%the%table,%
a%couple%of%ideas%on%how%we%might%be%able%to%fund,%finance%and%eventually%grow%a%very,%very%
unique%type%of%non(profit.%Cause%you%can,%you%can%bring%all%of%the%resources%that%you%want,%at%
the%end%of%the%day%if%you%can't%bring%the%people%together%to%make%it%work,%than%it%wont%make%
any%sense.%(Gives%RW%materials?)%
RON%WATERS:%(([inaudible]%
[32:40]%%
TYRON%ALI:%I%actually%left%it%in%my%office,%but%basically,%what%it%is%is%this:%it's%looking%at%three%
different%types%of%outcomes(%one%is%the%education%situation,%one%that%would%help%folks%
10%
%

Tape%52(%February%14,%2011%

understand%what%other%kinds%of%opportunities%are%available,%and%then%three,%an%actual%
scholarship%fund.%
RON%WATERS:%Right.%
TYRON%ALI:%You%know?%
RON%WATERS:%Right%
TYRON%ALI:%And%I%think%if%we%can%get%the%scholarship%portion%of%this%figured%out,%I%think%it%would%
work%fairly%well.%What%do%you%think?%
RON%WATERS:%Yea,%I%think%it%all%looks%good%
TYRON%ALI:%Do%you%have%any%scholarship%deal,%any%scholarship%requirements%now?%
RON%WATERS:%Well%the%Black%Caucus%is%doing%a%scholarship%thing,%we%did%one%last%year.%We're%
doing%a%separate%one%this%year.%People%gonna%respond%a%lot%better%than%they%did%last%year.%
TYRON%ALI:%How%much%money%do%you%guys%typically%raise?%
[33:35]%
RON%WATERS:%Actually,%ah,%actually%we%gave%out,%10,%well%actually%it%ended%up%being%9%because%
one%person%didn't%comply%with%all%the%rules,%but%9%scholarships%of%$2500%apiece.%
TYRON%ALI:%Nine%scholarships%for%how%much?%
RON%WATERS:%$2500%apiece.%This%year%we're%only%doing%$1000%a%piece%because%$2500...%
TYRON%ALI:%And%it's%nine%scholarships?%
RON%WATERS:%Well,%10.%
TYRON%ALI:%So%$10,000?%
RON%WATERS:%But%last%year%it%was%supposed%to%have%been%$25,000,%but%what%happened%was%one%
of%our%students%didn't%comply%with%our%rules%so%they...%
TYRON%ALI:%Who%controls%that%non(profit?%
RON%WATERS:%This%was%ah,%this%was,%theres,%we%have%a%foundation,%but%I%call%it%a%foundation%
because%it%has%money%in%it.%We%used%the%money%that%was%in%it,%we%let%it%sit%in%it%for%about%7(8%
years,%and%um%it%was%$37,000%sitting%there.%And%the%treasurer%was%investing%it.%But%I%discovered%
the%money%was%there,%invested%in%CDs%and%stuff.%I%said,%we%didn't%give%you%that%money%to%sit%
there,%we%gave%you%that%money%to%use.%So%we%used%it%for%the%scholarships.%Usually%we%going%to%
do%$1000%(([inaudible]((%We%not%gonna%follow%the%foundation.%But%the%foundation,%we%finally%put%
together%a%board%of%members%for%the%foundation.%The%foundation%was%pretty%much%a%flunk.%And%
we%got%a%great%group%of%reps,%great%group%of%people%together,%Stanley%Prodder%(phonetic),%Cory%
11%
%

Tape%52(%February%14,%2011%

Coleman,%Sanchez.%We%got%a%great%group%of%four%complementary%board%members.%And%we%
decided%the%board%to%do%the%fundraiser%for%that%rather%than%the%black%caucus%so%that%could%do%
something.%That's%it%though.%And%they%agreed%to%do%it.%So%we%got%some%people%committed%to%
raising%money%for%them.%
[35:24]%
TYRON%ALI:%And%you're%creating%a%village.%What%if%we%partnered%up%creating%a%village%with%the%
group%that%donates%the%scholarship?%Does%that%work?%
RON%WATERS:%Yea,%create%a%village%that%is%a%whole%complement,%including%education.%
TYRON%ALI:%You're%in%control%of%that%thing,%right?%
RON%WATERS:%What?%
TYRON%ALI:%You're%in%control%of%that?%
RON%WATERS:%Yes.%It's%all,%it's%dealing%with,%its%dealing%with%education,%public%safety,%
neighborhood%beautification,%wealth%development%and%health.%Those%are%the%projects%I'm%in%
control%of.%
TYRON%ALI:%And%the%people%who%receive%these%scholarships?%Are%they%all%from%your%community?%
From%your?%
RON%WATERS:%No%
TYRON%ALI:%Where%are%they%from?%
RON%WATERS:%The%state.%
TYRON%ALI:%Oh%the%state.%
RON%WATERS:%People%who%qualify%to%get%them,%we%do%it%through%a%group%called%Scholarship%
America.%Percy%is%the%one%that%told%it%to%me,%Percy%was%running%it%last%year.%Percy%told%me%about%
the%group.%And%I%like%it%because%it%removes%us%from%being%in%the%selection%process.%We%have%a%
target%group%we%go%after,%group%within%cities%and%counties%that%have%large%minority%populations,%
and%we%give%the%students,%you%know,%standards%of%to%qualify%for,%and,%but%I%like%it%when%they%do%
it,%it%removes%us%from%it.%You%know,%I%don't%want%us%to%look%like%we%picked%all%the%people,%it%just%
removes%any%cloud%of%suspicion.%
TYRON%ALI:%%But%the%thing%is,%probably%in%your%neighborhood,%I%could%see%that%there's%probably%a%
greater%need%than%say%in%another%district.%%
RON%WATERS:%There%is.%
TYRON%ALI:%Because%the%high%school%dropout%rate%where%you%are%is%incredible.%

12%
%

Tape%52(%February%14,%2011%

RON%WATERS:%Well%we%encourage%them%to%make%sure%that%they%try%and%get%as%many%
Philadelphians%as%they%can.%I%assign%all%the%black%caucus%members%to%try%to%encourage%people%in%
school%districts%in%their%areas%to%apply%to%it.%That's%what%we%really%do.%Take%advantage%of%it,%get%
the%application%in,%meet%up%to%the%guidelines(which%is%only%writing%an%essay(%and%have%a%certain%
GPA%score.%
TYRON%ALI:%This%sounds%like%this%is%something%very%close%to%your%heart.%If%we%could%help%out,%how%
much,%how,%well(how%can%we%help?%
RON%WATERS:%Well,%you%know,%were%looking%for%sponsors.%%Well,%you%know,%we%send%out%letter%
to%sponsors.%Last%year%we%had%like%a,%like%I%said,%a%Percy%and%who%else%gave%us,%a%few%people%did.%
Crown%Cork%&%Seal%reached%out.%Who%else?%PECO.%Um%I%can't%remember%what%they%did.%But%we%
reached%out%to%all%the%groups%that%had,%not%non(profits%but%who%give%to%non(profits.%
TYRON%ALI:%Do%you%think%that%the%non(profit,%if%we%could%do%something%with%the%non(profits,%do%
you%think%it's%easier%than%the%parking%authority?%For%you%to%be%able%to%sort%of%coordinate%for%us?%
RON%WATERS:%Ah,%well%why%not%both?%You%know?%I%mean%if%that%is...%
TYRON%ALI:%Now%you're%talking.%
RON%WATERS:%(laughs)%You%know,%I%think%I%know%Vince,%you%know%what%I%mean?%
TYRON%ALI:%Can%you%help%us%get%a%contract?%
RON%WATERS:%With%him?%
TYRON%ALI:%Yes.%
RON%WATERS:%Oh,%I%don't%know.%
TYRON%ALI:%Ok.%
RON%WATERS:%I%don't%know.%I%can't%promise%you%that%because%this%guy%is%um,%I'm%not%saying%the%
answer%is%no%but%I%don't%make%no%promises%that...%
TYRON%ALI:%No,%no,%no%I%understand.%
RON%WATERS:%You%know...%
TYRON%ALI:%And%I%appreciate%it.%Can%you%make%a%half%a%promise?%
RON%WATERS:%(laughs)%How%old%do%you%think%I%am,%man?%This%is,%I%mean%the%things%that%I've%
done...%
TYRON%ALI:%All%these,%all,%you%know%at%the%end%of%the%day,%we%know%that%we%need%to%give%back.%
We%understand%that.%
RON%WATERS:%Yea%
13%
%

Tape%52(%February%14,%2011%

TYRON%ALI:%Because%we're%the%ones%who%are%making%decisions,%and%at%the%same%time,%making%
money.%%
RON%WATERS:%See,%now%that,%they%gave,%the%parking%authority%gave,%they%give%that...%
TYRON%ALI:%This%is%uh,%this%is%ah%some%of%the,%some%of%the%information%that's%been%forwarded%to%
me%so%far%(([inaudible]((%you%know?%And%if%we%can%figure%out%a%way%to%combine%some%money%
from%one%side%over%here,%right?%Some%money%from%over%here.%
RON%WATERS:%Right%
TYRON%ALI:%And%put%it%into%a%non(profit%over%here,%to%me%that%makes%the%most%amount%of%sense.%
You%know?%(To%server:%Can%we%have%two%menus?)%%
FEMALE%SERVER:%We're%only%doing%the%buffet%tonight%
RW/TYRON%ALI:%Ohhhhhhh%
RON%WATERS:%That's%not%right.%That%is%not%right.%
TYRON%ALI:%Im%at%IHOP?%
RON%WATERS:%No%wonder%that,%no%wonder%I%dont%see%nobody%getting%up%walking%through%that%
door.%They%got%the%greatest%crab,%that%crab%cake%last%week%was%delicious.%
FEMALE%SERVER:%Oh%yea.%Well%we're%not%doing%the%menu,%if%I%could%offer%it%to%you,%I%would.%But%I%
can't.%
RON%WATERS:%No,%no.%You%can't%control%that.%No%problem%
TYRON%ALI:%I%had%breakfast%here%this%morning,%too.%
RON%WATERS:%Oh%yea?%
TYRON%ALI:%Yep.%
RON%WATERS:%Ok.%I%was%wondering%why%I%see%those%tables%that%are%in%front%of%you%eating.%%
[40:33]%
RON%WATERS:%This%is%a%hot,%this%is%hot%that%Marcellus%Shale%thing.%
TYRON%ALI:%Well,%um%we%have%some%meetings%lined%up%with%folks,%who%are,%couple%of%folks%who%
are,%let's%just%say%they're%point%people.%
RON%WATERS:%Ok.%
TYRON%ALI:%You%know%what%I%mean?%
RON%WATERS:%Ok.%

14%
%

Tape%52(%February%14,%2011%

TYRON%ALI:%And%for%now,%it's%like,%ok%so%we've%got%a%couple%of%people%here,%right?%I'm%still%looking%
for%somebody%here.%And%I%don't,%you%know,%I%don't%know%enough%about%this,%I%know%what's%
wrong.%You%know,%I%know%that%there's%almost%2million%dollars%out%there.%%I%know%that%they%have%2%
collection%agencies,%I%don't%really%know%what%their%results%are%because%they're%privately%owned%
companies.%They%don't%need%to%publish%their%earnings...%
RON%WATERS:%No?%
TYRON%ALI:%Or%their%results.%No.%They%don't%need%to.%So%that%was%the%biggest%impediment%I%had%((%
RON%WATERS:%Ok.%
TYRON%ALI:%((%to%like%putting%something%together%that%would%look%like%a%proposal.%
RON%WATERS:%Ok.%
TYRON%ALI:%Instead,%I%had%to%go%to%their%financial%statements%to%figure%out%what%was%actually%
lost,%what%was%collected,%what%is%uncollected,%and%then%out%of%that,%you%know,%%how%do%much%do%
they%anticipate%collecting?%
RON%WATERS:%Oh.%
TYRON%ALI:%It's%a%lot%of%headache%but%I%mean,%at%the%end%of%the%day,%we%will%do%the%work,%I%will%do%
the%work%if%I%think%it's%doing%what%we%want%it%to%do.%We%always%want%to%be%in%a%position%to%say,%
look%at%how%much%money%we%gave%back.%%
RON%WATERS:%Right.%
TYRON%ALI:%Yes,%we%made%a%lot%of%money,%but%look%at%how%much%money%we%gave%back.%You%
know?%
RON%WATERS:%So%how's%things%going%with%the%state%store%stuff?%Cause%that%seems%to%be%your%
thing%too...%
TYRON%ALI:%We've%got%some%real%work%ahead%of%us.%
RON%WATERS:%You%think%so?%
TYRON%ALI:%I%do,%because...%
RON%WATERS:%Because%of%the%Senate?%
TYRON%ALI:%Yes.%Um,%because%your%um%friend.%
RON%WATERS:%Which%one?%
TYRON%ALI:%(([inaudible]((%
RON%WATERS:%Oh,%ok.%What's%up%with%him?%

15%
%

Tape%52(%February%14,%2011%

TYRON%ALI:%He's%gonna%um,%well%let's%just%say%that%he%is%anxiously%awaiting%to%see%how%he%could%
um%take%care%of%Tony.%
RON%WATERS:%Take%what?%
TYRON%ALI:%Take%care%of%Tony.%
RON%WATERS:%Oh!%He%always%looking%out%for%that!%
TYRON%ALI:%Like%I've%noticed.%
RON%WATERS:%(laughing)%That's%all%he%does%man,%is%it%(???)%man.%
TYRON%ALI:%(sighs)%
RON%WATERS:%%It%is%what%it%is.%
[42:54]%
TYRON%ALI:%At%the%end%of%the%day,%you%know,%like%I%said%to%you,%I'm%taking%it%nice%and%slow%
because%I%know%it's%not%going%to%come%around%for%a%while.%In%terms%of%the%privatization,%we%went%
through%what%could%be%possible:%brand%awareness,%store%expansion,%smaller%breweries%actually%
coming%into%that%market%place.%All%of%those%things%will%never%go%anywhere%until%and%unless%they%
get%the%issues%with%Local%1776%under%control.%%
RON%WATERS:%Oh%
TYRON%ALI:%Do%you%follow%what%I'm%what%saying?%So%the%Shale%issue%is%really%the%important%
piece,%that%comes%second.%The%other%piece%that%probably%between%the%two%of%those,%like%one%
and%a%half,%is%the%non(profits.%How%do%we%continue%to%fund%some%of%the%non(profits%search%and%
assist,%when%we%know%full%well%there's%no%sacred%cow%in%the%pasture,%everything's%going%to%get%
cut.%You%know?%
RON%WATERS:%They%gonna%get%cut%bad.%The%non(profits.%
TYRON%ALI:%Do%you%give%scholarships%to%community%college%at%all?%
RON%WATERS:%No.%Do%I%give%em?%
TYRON%ALI:%Yea.%
RON%WATERS:%No,%I%can%try%to%get%some%from%them.%Kids%that%we%gave%scholarships%to,%none%of%
them%picked%community%college%as%their%school.%Last,%I%mean%we%did%last%year%they%picked.%We%
changed%it%a%little%bit%this%year%to%say%that%every%scholarship%participant%has%to%plan%on%going%to%a%
school%in%the%state.%We%didn't%do%that%last,%we%were%over(excited%on%our%part,%we%didn't%think%
about%it.%But%I%think%two%out%of%nine%went%to%schools%outside%of%the%state,%University%of%Sciences.%%
TYRON%ALI:%Maybe%we%can%do%something%about%that.%

16%
%

Tape%52(%February%14,%2011%

[44:36]%
RON%WATERS:%Well%we%changing%it%this%year,%we%told%them:%You%have%to%go%to%a%school%in%this%
state.%Um,%let's%get%something%to%eat%man,%I'm%hungry.%I%aint%eat%nothing%since%
TYRON%ALI:%Sure.%I%hear%ya.%
RON%WATERS:%You%musta%ate%already.%%
TYRON%ALI:%I%ate%twice.%
RON%WATERS:%Since%you%here?%
TYRON%ALI:%No.%You're%actually%dinner%number%two%
RON%WATERS:%Ohhh%(laughing).%Well%I'm%gonna%get%something%now.%
TYRON%ALI:%Sure.%
(RW%goes%to%buffet)%
[51:15]%
TYRON%ALI:%I%went%to%this%place%called%stocks%on%2nd.%%
RON%WATERS:%Yea,%I%ate%there%before%
TYRON%ALI:%I%like%that%place.%
RON%WATERS:%Yea,%that%place%is%cool.%They%got%the%military%thing%on%the%same%block%called%the%
Second%Level%or%something%like%that.%It's%a%really%nice%place.%It's%not%like%a%restaurant,%it's%like%a%
really%nice%bar.%
TYRON%ALI:%I,%I%just,%it's%amazing%to%me%like%um%how%different%some%of%the,%some%of%the%senators%
are%from%Philadelphia.%
RON%WATERS:%Oh%they're%very%different%
TYRON%ALI:%In%terms%of%their%ability%to%just%connect%with%you.%You%know?%Not,%just,%just%talk%to%
you%like,%like%they're%really%interested%in%speaking%with%you.%
RON%WATERS:%Man.%You%don't%know%what%happens%to%people%when%they%get%to%the%Senate.%
Friends%in%the%House,%then%no%idea%what%happens%to%them.%You%know%we%worked%with%some%of%
them%when%they%was%in%the%House.%They%go%there%and%then%they%pretend%like%you%work%for%
them.%Im%tellin%you,%something%about%that%name%Senator.%It's%like%they%ah,%that's%why%nothing%
gets%done.%They%done%stopped%a%lot%of%stuff%that%we%had%done.%Isn't%there%uh%what%the%guys%
name,%the%Republican%is.%The%real%problem%comes,%got%defeated,%I%forget%him%name.Perzel.%
People%talked%about%um,%someone%to%get%rid%of%him.%Heres%the%thing,%we%could%do%the%deal,%but%
we%cant%sit%down%and%work%it%out.%(([inaudible]%
17%
%

Tape%52(%February%14,%2011%

TYRON%ALI:%I%don't%know%how%you%combat%that%but%I%think%you%start%by%doing%something%small.%
RON%WATERS:%Like%what?%
TYRON%ALI:%I%don't%know.%Clean%up%the%park.%Take%trash%off%the%streets.%Organize%a%campaign%for%
needle%exchanges.%You%know%there%are,%you%know%you%do%educational%workshops%on%almost%
anything%you%can%think%about.%
RON%WATERS:%Now%that's,%that's%where%it's%needed.%
TYRON%ALI:%That's%why%the%non(profits%are%so%important.%
RON%WATERS:%That's%needed.%Educational%workshops.%
[54:14]%
TYRON%ALI:%What%was%your%mission%behind%creating%a%village?%What%does%that%do?%
RON%WATERS:%It%was%um,%the%view%of%support%was,%what%really%got%me%thinking%about%it%was%I%
started%noticing%so%many%churches%had%same%program.%Mostly%substance%abuse%or%like%after(
school,%you%know%they%had%the%same%stuff.%And%there%was%a%dude%at%DBA%who%rolled%up%when%
they%had%had%like%a%clean%parenting%program%or,%none%of%them%really%had%stuff%like%wealth%
development,%how%to,%you%know,%show%how%the%people%learn%how%to%create%their%own%wealth,%
how%to%save,%how%to%manage%your%business.%And%Ive%been%noticing%that,%the%ones%who%have%
stuff,%most%of%them%dont%even%know%about%it.%So%what%would%a%nickel%look%like?%So%most%of%the,%
most%of%what%I%believe%to%be%part%of%the%network%should%improve%aides%that%could%help%to%
establish%and%build%a%foundation%for%small%community%growth.%Out%of%that,%I%started%thinking%
about%what,%you%know,%the%network%would%look%like,%and%thats%when%I%always%remember%people%
say,%(([inaudible]((%They%dont%hear%that.%But%nobody%ever%says,%well%lets%create%a%village%here.%
Lets%find%the%votes,%whoever%loses,%you%know,%so%I%came%up%with%the%concept%called%creating%a%
village,%so%there%would%be,%creating%it%would%be%action%roles,%concrete,%consciously%taking%place.%
You%know,%we%dont%have%a%village,%but%even%if%you%start%seeing%it,%dont%stop.%%Because%its%
constantly%growing.%So%its%all%about%creating,%creating,%creating.%%So%thats%all%that.%And%as%I%said,%
I%thought%through,%I%thought%one%of%the%main%things%that%we%needed%if%it%were%to%be%successful,%
education%is%everything,%its%a%crossover%to%voter%education,%voter%registration,%um%block%of%
votes,%get%things%done,%how%to%establish%an%agenda.%What%would%they%want?%What%would%be%the%
thing%that%would%um,%did%the%um%voting%block%meeting,%wealth%development,%something%our%
communities%always%done%in%the%past,%other%people%have.%Cause%we%don't%manage%our%money%
properly.%We%are%just%the%farmers,%not%investors.%You%know,%you%know,%help%major%problems%in%
our%neighborhood.%I%wanna%know%about%the%Indians%man,%how%is%that?%Um%the%Native%
Americans.%
TYRON%ALI:%I%can%speak%to%you%for%the%Indian%folks%from%India.%They%don't%really%care%about%
wealth%development.%All%they%care%about%is%wealth%preservation.%
RON%WATERS:%Right.%
18%
%

Tape%52(%February%14,%2011%

[57:37]%
TYRON%ALI:%They%just%don't%want%anybody%taking%their%money,%thats%about%it.%
RON%WATERS:%Yea.%
TYRON%ALI:%And%in%their%economy,%$1%circulates%many%more%times%than%in...%
RON%WATERS:%The%black%community%
TYRON%ALI:%a%lot%of%other%communities.%
RON%WATERS:%A%lot%of%Blacks.%Blacks%is%a%one(way%ticket.%It's%going%right%out,%we%don't%get%it.%
That's%what%I%mean%about%the%brother's%running%it:%how%do%we%recirculate%it?%How%do%we%keep%in%
so%it%passes%through%more%and%more%hands%in%the%neighborhood?%%
TYRON%ALI:%So%if%we,%if%we%look%at%a%non(profit%for%education,%right?%
RON%WATERS:%Yea%
TYRON%ALI:%Or%a%non(profit%for,%I%don't%want%to%call%it%wealth(building%or%wealth%preservation,%
but%really%something%that%reaches%out%and%speaks%to%the%importance%of%saving.%I%think%that%if%you%
%if%you%(%remember,%the%example%you%know,%he%who%saves%has,%you%know.%Give%some%thought.%I%
mean,%Ron%look,%give%some%serious%thought%to%what%kind%of%non(profit%organization%would%make%
sense%in%your%community.%This%is%not%for%the%whole%of%Pennsylvania,%just%your%community,%you%
know?%Would%it%be%scholarships?%Would%it%be%doing%Driver's%Ed,%you%know?%Doing%educational%
workshops%for%childcare%aids%at%daycare%centers?%Would%it%be%teaching%folks%how%to%plant%a%
garden?%You%know?%Small%things%that%are,%that%don't%require%a%lot%of%resources,%and%some%things%
that%you%can%get%the%complete%credit%for.%Cause%you're%going%to%be%the%person%spear(heading%the%
effort.%
RON%WATERS:%Well%I%have%another%non(profit%that,%it's%not%mine,%but%I%helped%create%it,%but%it's%
all%fresh%start,%first%start,%fresh%start.%They%do%that%program%that%deals%with%education%that%is%for%
young%people.%
TYRON%ALI:%What%age?%
RON%WATERS:%Its%for%teenagers.%
TYRON%ALI:%And%how%does%that%benefit%them?%What%does%it%do?%
RON%WATERS:%They%give%everybody%in%school%that%are%failing,%not%doing%well,%truant%and%
delinquent,%to%turn%them%around.%(([inaudible]((%a%couple%kids,%but%there's%1500%kids%in%it.%
TYRON%ALI:%1500?%
RON%WATERS:%Yea%
TYRON%ALI:%Really?%This%is%in%Pennsylvania?%
19%
%

Tape%52(%February%14,%2011%

RON%WATERS:%It's%in%Delaware%County.%
TYRON%ALI:%Delaware%County?%
RON%WATERS:%The%DA's%in%Delaware%county,%well%it%really%wasn't%a%DA%who%started%it,%it%was%
agent%part%of%our%victims%unit,%but%the%agents%who%counseled%people%were%not%helpful,%and%
ended%up%that%the%Darby%counsel%people%were%extremely%helpful.%Gave%them%a%site%so%then%they%
could%stay,%rent(free%and%now%the%point%are%to%get%them%to%adjudicate%kids%in%the%program%rather%
than%send%them%away%to%prison.%It's%really%successful.%I'm%really%proud%of%that%one.%
TYRON%ALI:%Who%else%did%this%with%you?%
RON%WATERS:%A%lady%by%the%name%of%Leslie%Magert%(phonetic).%
TYRON%ALI:%She's%a%school%teacher?%
RON%WATERS:%No.%
TYRON%ALI:%What%is%she?%
RON%WATERS:%She's%just%one%of%those%concerned%parents%who%had%children%in%the%school,%in%the%
(?)%school%district%that%was%a%struggle,%who%wrote%in%to%find%out%about%something%that%had%to%do%
with%her%son.%She%wrote%there%and%she%went%there%and%found%out%that%her%son%was%not%there.%He%
had%completely%up%and%(after%research%on%it)%found%out%that%not%only%was%it%not%just%her%son,%but%
somebody%else's%son,%it%was%a%bunch%of%kids%that%had%issues%that%kept%them%from%going%to%
school,%having%them%in%trouble%with%the%law.%And%she%came%to%me%and%asked%me%if%I%would%help%
them%develop%a%program%that%would%help%them%reach%the%kids%and%put%them%back%on%track.%%
[1:01:30]%
TYRON%ALI:%And%issues%was%like%drug,%I%guess?%
RON%WATERS:%No,%it%wasn't%drugs.%
TYRON%ALI:%No?%
RON%WATERS:%I%mean%drugs%would%not%(([inaudible]((%but%so%far,%so%they%have%no%hope,%no%
desire%to%be%successful.%Like%her%son.%It%started%with%just%her%son.%Then%a%couple%other%kids.%Like%I%
said,%then%it%grew.%It%grew.%And%um,%I%just%gave%them%money.%
TYRON%ALI:%What%kind%of%resources%are%you%talking%about?%%
RON%WATERS:%I%just%gave%them%grant%money.%That's%all%they%came%to%me%for.%
TYRON%ALI:%A%lot?%Or%something%small?%
RON%WATERS:%No.%I%gave%her%appropriate%at%the%time,%I%guess%$70($75,000%of%a%grant.%
TYRON%ALI:%All%together,%right?%
20%
%

Tape%52(%February%14,%2011%

RON%WATERS:%Yea%
TYRON%ALI:%But%that's%a%small%amount%of%money.%That's%not%a%lot.%
RON%WATERS:%It%is.%It%is.%But%then%I%got%other%people%to%give%her%money.%Like%Verizon.%Other%
people.%Because%they%had%grant%programs%too.%But%then%she%started%charging%kids,%not%kids,%the%
parents,%a%cost%associated%with%it,%but%it%was%minimal.%Maybe%like%$15.%Cause%they%had%a%summer%
camp%program%too.%
TYRON%ALI:%But%how%could%you,%could%you%still%garner%support%for%that%kind%of%thing%in%the%
House?%%
RON%WATERS:%%Yeah.%
TYRON%ALI:%If%it%wasn't%her,%but%something%similar%to%that?%
RON%WATERS:%Yea.%
TYRON%ALI:%Yea?%
RON%WATERS:%Because%there's%more%of%that%needed.%%
[1:02:55]%
TYRON%ALI:%But%this%is%when%Dwight%was%head%of%Appropriation,%now%it's%somebody%else%
RON%WATERS:%Right.%Well%hes%close%with%her.%That's%why%I%'m%on%the%probation,%I'm%real%friendly%
with%them.%
TYRON%ALI:%Ok.%
RON%WATERS:%Yea.%So%I%wouldn't%worry%about%it.%Dwight%was%head%of%Appropriations,%now%its%is%
Cynthia.%%
TYRON%ALI:%Ok.%
RON%WATERS:%Dwight,%I%mean%Dwight%knew%about%the%program%because%he%supported%it%
because%he's%about%education%too.%%
TYRON%ALI:%Right.%
RON%WATERS:%I%knew%that%but%do%you,%and%you%talking%about%non(profit%things%that%make%a%
difference%in%the%community,%this%is%one%that's%very%very%successful,%I'm%very%proud%of%it.%
TYRON%ALI:%How%long's%the%program%been%around?%
RON%WATERS:%About%four%years,%maybe%
TYRON%ALI:%Oh%it's%new.%
RON%WATERS:%Mm%Hmm.%
21%
%

Tape%52(%February%14,%2011%

TYRON%ALI:%How%many%folks%would%you%say%you%could%get%to%support%it?%
RON%WATERS:%In%the%House?%
TYRON%ALI:%Yea%
RON%WATERS:%Right%now,%we%had%Donatucci,%but%he%died.%%And%Anthony%Williams.%So%we%had%
one%in%the%House,%one%of%them,%one%in%the%House%and%him%in%the%Senate.%
[1:03:59]%
TYRON%ALI:%And%you%think%you%could%get%Anthony%to%support%this%again?%
RON%WATERS:%He%already%is.%He's%still%doing,%they%got%a%grant%right%now%they%waiting%to%get,%they%
got%some%money%from%the%one%of%the%departments,%Pennsylvania%Commission%on%Crime%and%
Delinquency,%has%grants%for%safety,%public%safety%programs.%And%they%available%to%programs%like%
this%too.%
TYRON%ALI:%See%that%the%interesting%thing%that%Anthony%does%eventually%what%he%does%is%he%
steals%all%of%the%thunder.%
RON%WATERS:%All%of%it.%Any%credit.%
TYRON%ALI:%He%won't%leave%you%with%anything.%
RON%WATERS:%Nothing.%
TYRON%ALI:%So%if%this%were%something%that%you%were%going%to%do%it,%you'd%have%to%sort%of%have%to,%
have%to%do%it%on%the%strength%that%you're%going%to%be%able%to%bring%it%home.%%You%know?%
RON%WATERS:%The%people%who%run%it,%Leslie,%always%gives%me%credit%for%it.%Because%it%would%
have%never%got%started%if%it%wasn't%for%me.%He%didn't%even%pay%any%attention%to%it.%He%only%got%on%
board%when%it%got%to%be%successful,%started%getting%record%this,%starting%seeing%being%interviewed%
by%news%people,%them%showing%up,%people%like%Crosby,%Byron%Scott,%and%the%lady,%um%started%
coming%out%and%doing%interviews%on%the%program%because%it%became%totally,%it%grew%so%quickly.%
And%once%he%started%noticing%all%the%attention%it%was%getting,%he%was%like%whoa,%I%better%start%
finding%some%way%to%help%it%out%too.%
TYRON%ALI:%See,%the%thing%about%it%is%this,%let's%say%that%we%needed%his%help%right,%we%would%turn%
that%program%down%flat.%Let%me%tell%you%why.%%If%we're%helping,%I%mean%we%expect%to%be%helped.%
RON%WATERS:%Yea.%
TYRON%ALI:%I%mean%that's%just%the%normal%course%of%things.%%
RON%WATERS:%Right.%
TYRON%ALI:%And%I%don't%think%that%he%would%be%selfless%enough%to%look%at%that.%That's%why%I%go%
back%to,%if%you%and%I%can%come%up%with%a%project%that%makes%sense,%we%both%fund%it.%You%know%
22%
%

Tape%52(%February%14,%2011%

but,%you%know,%Ron%look,%I'm%not%a%politician,%ok%I%lobby%for%a%living,%that's%what%I%do.%You%know?%
You%have%the%hand%that%reaches%where%we%need%it%to%reach.%I%can%only%bring%it%so%far,%it%doesn't%
matter.%And%that's%the%truth.%That's%true%of%anybody%that%does%governmental%relations.%You%can%
only%take%it%so%far.%You%really%need%someone%to%recognize%the%fact%that%hey,%these%people%are%
trying%to%do%something%and%maybe%I%can%help%them.%You%know?%
RON%WATERS:%Right.%I%mean%programs,%our%community%has%a%need%for%programs.%I%don't%want%to%
do%another%drug/alcohol%abuse%program.%I%want%to%do%um,%there's%another%group%of%people%in%
our%community%that%need%help%and%nobody%can%help%them.%Going%back%to%expenses,%people%
come%up%all%over%parts%that%need%to%be%mentored.%There's%nobody%mentoring%to%help%these%
people%stay%on%track,%not%get%mixed%up,%go,%get%back%with%their%families,%raise%their%children,%get%
a%job%and%become%a%law(abiding%citizen.%
TYRON%ALI:%But%then%how%do%you%get%them%to%that%place?%I%mean%you%would%have%to%have%a%
number%of%different%relationships%in%place.%
RON%WATERS:%That's%how%we'd%do%it.%
TYRON%ALI:%You'd%need%someone%from%Urban%Affairs.%
RON%WATERS:%Who?%
TYRON%ALI:%You%(%Urban%Affairs,%to%champion%your%cause.%You'd%need%somebody%on%
Appropriation.%You'd%need%somebody%on%Appropriation%in%the%Senate.%You'd%need%somebody%
that's%on%the%Committee%for%Youth%and%Aging.%You'd%need%somebody%on%Consumer%Affairs.%I%
mean%it%would%take%you((%
RON%WATERS:%But%we%got%all%of%that.%Consumer%Affairs,%Bill%Preston%already%said%we%gotta%do%
something%about%recidivism.%That's%what%he%talk%about..%
TYRON%ALI:%What%do%you%think%about%Preston?%
RON%WATERS:%Children%and%Youth...he's%ok.%I%mean%you%gotta%give%him%directions,%you%can't%let%
him%go%on%his%own%because%he's%got%his%own%ego.%So%you%gotta%be%able%to%handle%issues%that%he's%
not%in%control%of%that%if%he%controls%it%then%it%don't%know%where%it's%gonna%go.%Probably%((
[inaudible]((%but%the%issue%((%
FEMALE%SERVER:%Do%you%want%another%Riesling?%
RON%WATERS:%No%I%don't.%
FEMALE%SERVER:%Another%Pellegrino?%
RON%WATERS:%Yes.%
TYRON%ALI:%Darling,%can%I%have%a%cup%of%coffee?%
FEMALE%SERVER:%Absolutely.%Would%you%like%cream%as%well?%
23%
%

Tape%52(%February%14,%2011%

TYRON%ALI:%Do%you%have%espresso?%
FEMALE%SERVER:%Yes.%
TYRON%ALI:%Cappuccino?%
FEMALE%SERVER:%Yes.%
TYRON%ALI:%Cappuccino.%
FEMALE%SERVER:%Coffee.%Cappuccino.%%
TYRON%ALI:%You%want%dessert?%
RON%WATERS:%No.%
TYRON%ALI:%Ok.%
1:08:47%
RON%WATERS:%But%um%there's%a%group%of%people%out%there%right%now%that%is%like%a%kind%of%a%
mentoring%group%that%will%help%a%group%out%of%that%could%be%served,%that%could%almost%serve%as%a%
maximum%hour%where%(([inaudible]((%I%think%that,%you%know%I'm%involved%with%another%group%of%
people,%I'm%involved%in%so%many%groups.%They%came%to%me%like%doing%a%documentary%on%what's%
wrong%with%the%criminal%justice%system.%If%it's%gonna%be%permitted,%they're%trying%to%find%a%way%of%
presenting%it%that's%different%than%any%other%way%that%they've%presented%so%far,%and%they%came%
to%me,%Reverend%Wilson%Goode,%some%other%people%going%around%and%meet.%You%meet,%basically%
through%a%conference%call%with%the%other%people,%because%you%meet%here%with%the%local%people%
who%are%trying%to%show%what's%wrong%and%how%do%you%get%it%right.%One%of%the%problems%is%you%
talking%about%something%different,%I'm%already%connected%with%the%guys%who%are%in%talks%with%it,%
ok%because%we%have%programs%that%deal%convicts.%They%have%what%is%a%group%of%guys%that%who,%I%
know%who%call%me%their,%what%do%they%call,%it's%like%the%person%that's%in%charge.%%
TYRON%ALI:%(to%server)%Thank%you.%
RON%WATERS:%Um,%conductor.%
TYRON%ALI:%Mm%Hmm%
RON%WATERS:%Because%they%have,%they%have%an%internal%group%called%positive%peer%intervention.%
Where%you%actually%have%a%couple%different%volunteers%for%it.%We%had%the%program%start%on%the%
outside,%peer%intervention%program%starts%on%the%inside%which%makes%it%unique.%The%men%are%
conditioned%on%the%inside%to%be%prepared%on%what%they're%expected%to%do%on%the%outside.%
There's%no%other%program%that%does%that.%Even%the%Department%of%Corrections%don't%do%that.%
They%don't%prepare%people%who%are%coming%home,%they%just%tell%them%to%be%good.%They%don't%
get,%they%don't%get,%what%makes%this%unique%it's%not%done%by%the%Department%of%Corrections,%it's%
done%by%the%man%himself,%who%had%decided%that%we're%gonna,%we're%gonna%take%charge%of%our%
24%
%

Tape%52(%February%14,%2011%

life,%we're%going%to%prepare%men%to%go%home%to%our%own%network,%our%own%community%because%
we%understand%each%other,%we%trust%each%other.%We%don't%trust%the%other%people.%
TYRON%ALI:%So%if%we%set%up%a%non(profit%organization%to%look%at%the%kinds%of%resources%that%one%
needs%to%re(enter%society,%is%that%what%you're%talking%about?%
[1:11:37]%
RON%WATERS:%And%mentoring.%%Arts%and%Crafts.%Job%preparedness.%Rather%than%re(entry,%they%
should%call,%this%is%called,%this%goes%deeper%than%re(entry,%this%goes%deeper%than%re(integration.%
That%stuff%starts%on%the%outside.%We're%talking%about%preparing%men%who%have%(???)%and%are%still%
inside.%When%you%start%them%on%the%inside%and%prepare%them%for%the%outside%you%have%a%better%
chance%of%them%coming%out%and%not%having%unrealistic%expectations%and%if%they%don't%have%
unrealistic%expectations,%they%can%come%out%prepared%to%proceed.%
TYRON%ALI:%Tell%me%if%you,%if%it%were%up%to%you%if%you%could%make%a%wish%list%and%sort%of%make%it%
come%true,%what%would%be%on%that%list%to%make%this%work%for%you?%How%would%you%make%it%work?%
RON%WATERS:%It%would%be,%ok...%
TYRON%ALI:%Trying%to%help%you%here,%Ron%(laughs)%
RON%WATERS:%Ok,%it's%a%network.%It's%a%network%that%has%to%be%on%the%outside.%The%growth%of%the%
(([inaudible]((%is%uninspected%right%now,%because%the%person%has%people%look%down%on%them.%So%
maybe%you%have%to%have%people%who%are%committed%and%I%had%600%people%who%had%signed%a%
script%to%me,%saying%that%they,%these%are%people%low%on%jobs,%saying%that%they%are%to%live,%coming%
back%into%the%community,%that%law(abiding%citizens,%taking%care%of%their%family,%getting%a%job%
whatever%it%is,%taking%that%job,%no%matter%if%it's%minimum%wage,%with%a%plan%for%growing%and%
earning%their%trust%back%in%the%community.%My%philosophy%is%that%a%person%can't%pay%their%debt%
back%to%society%while%they're%incarcerated.%Them%are%some%of%the%misunderstandings%that%we%
have.%They%can't,%they're%serving%time.%When%they%come%out%there%they%pay%their%debt.%So%how%
do%we%get%people%prepared%to%come%back%out%and%how%do%we%get%the%community%to%accept%
them%as%someone%worthy%of%giving%them%a%second%chance%because%they%have%indeed%proven%
that%they%are%reformed.%I%have%600%people%that%sent%me%a%letter%as%part%of%this%group%saying%I'm%
committed%to%coming%out%as%being%a%law(abiding%citizen,%I'm%committed%to%getting%underneath%
your%umbrella%and%I'm%not%going%to%embarrass%this%organization.%Those%kind%of%things%are%great%
in%terms%of%how%do%we%bring%people%back%and%return%the%men%that%have%been%their%back%to%the%
wall.%Nothing%like%that%is%gonna%help.%Nothing%like%that%is%gonna%help.%Today,%you%know,%it's%a%
shame%but%it%is%what%it%is%and%if%we%can%do%that%we%can%start%shaping%the%law,%(([inaudible]((%the%
law%and%proving%that%that%there%is%such%a%thing%as%a%redeemed%person.%
[1:14:36]%
TYRON%ALI:%Alright.%For%me%to%make%this%something%sort%of%acceptable,%it%has%to%have%a%plan%for%
sustenance.%I'll%give%you%an%example.%You%need%specific%employers%in%the%neighborhood%that%will%
25%
%

Tape%52(%February%14,%2011%

hire%these%people.%You%need%banks%that%will%work%with%these%people.%You%need%to%have%a%
childcare%network.%You%need%to%have%a%GED%network.%And%then%you%need%to%figure%out%a%
continuing%education%program.%If%they're%pursuing%their%GED%to%get%into%a%university%or%a%trade%
school.%So,%you%said%you%had%600%people%write%you%this?%
RON%WATERS:%That's%right.%
TYRON%ALI:%Do%you%have%them?%Do%you%have%the%letters?%
RON%WATERS:%Yea.%
TYRON%ALI:%Now%if%we%put%together%a%non(profit%program,%specifically%on%that,%see%I'm,%that's%I'm%
trying%to%figure%out%what%the%cost(benefit%is.%Like,%if%I%pitch%that%to%our%clients,%how%do%we%
benefit?%
RON%WATERS:%First%of%all,%let%me%tell%you%what((%how%Detroit,%Michigan%did%it.%Michigan%has%cut%
down%on%their%prison%population%by%about%(([inaudible]((%What%they%did%is%they%continue%to%fund%
the%prison%system%at%the%same%fee,%while%prison%population%comes%down.%What%they%did%with%
the%excess%money%that%was%realized%was%they%allowed%non(profits%to%acquire%the%grants,%along%
with%being%able%to%run%a%program%that%would%help,%to%help%make%sure%that%these%men%coming%
out%and%the%women%coming%out%were%successful%with%programs%that%would%serve%them%so%they%
would%not%be,%not%recidivate.%So,%but%it%was%based%on%performance.%So%if%you%had%a%non(profit%
that%is%walking%with%these%men%when%they%come%out,%put%them%on%the%right%path%in%terms%of%
jobs,%life%skills,%and%make%sure%that%they%are%doing%what%they%should%be%doing%and%not%
recidivating,%that%kept%risk%compilations%down%so%there%was%no%increase%within%the%prison,%like%
before%in%Pennsylvania.%Theyre%preparing%for%a%prison%increase.%Rather%than%prepare%for%an%
increase,%why%dont%we%stabilize%it%and%allow%the%non(profit%to%benefit%from%it%and%it%was%good%
because%it%promoted,%cause%it%not%only%did%they%cut%down%on%the%prison%population,%public%
safety%increased.%It%was%a%model%that%they%have%that%could%be%used%all%over.%
TYRON%ALI:%Alright,%so%that%is%what%is%good%about%the%program.%The%folks%that%are%funding%the%
program,%what%do%we%get%out%of%it?%
RON%WATERS:%You%get%the%money%coming,%you%get%the%money%that%the%state%has.%Right%now%the%
state%has%over%a%billion%dollars%that%goes%to%law%enforcement.%Security%grows%because%they%
already%built%more%prisons,%security%grows.%Five%thousand,%another%40%million%dollars.%This%is%to%
add%to%the%2%billion%plus,%whatever%it%is.%Ok,%we%don't%want%to%build%more%prisons,%cause%that's%
what%they%gonna%do,%they%gonna%build%more.%We%don't%want%to%build%more%prisons.%What%we%say%
is%lets%stop%the%prison%growth,%let's%find%a%way%to%help%these%men.%This%is%what%I'm%doing,%this%is%
what%I'm%doing%now.%%(([inaudible]judiciary%(([inaudible]((%Let's%stop%the%prison%growth.%%
TYRON%ALI:%(([inaudible]((%
RON%WATERS:%Let's%do%something%different,%we%cant%keep%going%in%the%same%direction.%Let's%use%
the%model%of%Detroit.%Let's%get%the%funding%at%the%same%level%so%now%let's%work%on%rehabilitating%
26%
%

Tape%52(%February%14,%2011%

and%redefining%men%and%women%so%that%they%come%back%out.%The%non(profits%now%get%access%to%
this%money%because%as%the%prison%population%increases,%that%means%that%the%prison,%rather%than%
reverting%back%to%the%general%fund,%they%keep%it%at%the%same%level%but%in%order%to%maintain%and%
maybe%keep%them%out%of%trouble,%rather%than%%re(victimizing%new%people,%which%is%public%safety,%
we%mentor%them,%we%help%them%develop%and%we,%our%people%already%worked%with%a%guy%on%
Saturday.%I'm%always%working%with%people%about%getting%guys%jobs.%%
TYRON%ALI:%Is%this,%is%this%program%akin%to%like%the%Doe%fund?%
RON%WATERS:%The%who?%
TYRON%ALI:%The%Doe%Fund?%Or%Men%United?%
RON%WATERS:%For%Better%Philadelphia?%
TYRON%ALI:%Yes.%
RON%WATERS:%They%broke%up.%
TYRON%ALI:%I%know.%But%is%this%something%like%that?%
RON%WATERS:%Yea%
TYRON%ALI:%That%you%have%in%mind?%
RON%WATERS:%I%was%trying%to%meet%with%them.%I%got%out%of%it%when%the,%the%money%started%to%
come%in.%
TYRON%ALI:%Oh%ok%
RON%WATERS:%Because%there%was%arguments%between%people%Al%Calhoun%(phonetic)%these%guys,%
Ray%and%all%those%guys.%
TYRON%ALI:%Ray%Jones.%
RON%WATERS:%Yea,%they%started%arguing.%But%no,%but%Ray%wasn't%but%Al%was%on%the%same%page,%it%
was%other%guys%like%Mark%(([inaudible]((all%those%guys,%they%started%pressing%him%about%the%
money%and%I'm%like%you%know,%I%don't%need%to%be%in%this%shit%no%more.%I%helped%start%it,%back%in%
2002,%with%Police%Commissioner%Sylvester%Johnson%and%Ray,%Malik,%a%few%guys%started%it,%got%it%
up%and%running,%doing%some%things%and%um%(([inaudible]((%
TYRON%ALI:%I%don't%know%how%much%good%they%actually%did%though.%%
[1:20:16]%
RON%WATERS:%They,%their%problem%was%that%they%were%more%reactive%rather%than%preventative.%
They%would%go%out,%when%they%heard%about%the...nah%I%can't%say,%they%tried%to%do%some%
interaction,%going%out%on%on%the%street%corner%cause%I%was%out%with%them,%going%to%the%
basketball%courts,%going%to%the%corners%and%stop(and(go's,%those%were%the%guys.%It%could've%
27%
%

Tape%52(%February%14,%2011%

worked.%It%could've%worked,%they%had%to%change%it%from%being%reactionary.%You%can't%keep%
showing%up%where%crime%happens,%it%just%doesn't%(??)%you%have%to%figure%out%how%to%make%it%
stop.%
TYRON%ALI:%And%you%think%there's%a%good%pot%of%money%in%the%house%for%this?%Out%of%the%General%
Services%Fund?%
RON%WATERS:%Well,%you%have%to%follow%a%model%of%Detroit,%Michigan.%They%kept%the%funding%
level%the%same,%but%when%they%started%saving%$200%million%and%$300%million,%they%said%the%non(
profits%who%are%geared,%who%could%help%make%sure%that%the%prisoners%are%all%law(biding,%they%get%
that%money.%So%it%kept%down%on%their%cost%from%increasing,%to%stabilize%it,%and%in%return%it%
provided%a%safe%community.%
TYRON%ALI:%And%you%think%we%could%do%this?%
RON%WATERS:%Yea!%That's%my%goal.%And%I%talked%to%Caltigirone%(phonetic)%about%it.%
TYRON%ALI:%How%much%money%do%we%need%to%start%it?%
RON%WATERS:%Oh%I%don't%know,%how%much%money%we%need,%I%don't%know,%about%money.%Most%
of%the%stuff%is%already%done.%What's%not%done%is%if%we%went%to%this%guy,%I%told%Caltigirone%we%
would%see%this%guy,%Kofi%Asante%who%has%the%fatherhood....%
TYRON%ALI:%The%National%Comprehensive%Initiative%for%Fatherhood%yea.%
[1:21:54]%
RON%WATERS:%We%went%to%go%see%him.%He%had%a%nice%PowerPoint%presentation.%He%loves%that%
program.%This%is%a%lot%of%ways%that%we%can%establish%something%that%can%make,%that%has%all%the%
networks%in%play,%that's%what%Kofi%does.%See,%we%don't,%some%of%this%stuff%we%don't%have%to%
reinvent,%it's%already%in%place.%We%could%utilize%the%network,%I%mean%not,%it's%not%a%network,%it's%
networking%them%together.%Corbett%like,%you%know%Corbett%the%governor%he%liked%what%Kofi%had,%
you%know%there's%a%way%to%get%the%money,%ok%you%just%have%to%establish%the%program.%Public%
safety%has%to%be%one%of%our%number%one%initiatives,%I'm%so%glad%I'm%back%on%judiciary%because%my%
mission%it's%to%go%back%to%the%house,%I%want%to%inform,%or%write%letters%for%the%governor,%or%not%
the%governor,%the%speaker%to%have%what%they%call%the%compes...committee%as%the%whole,%where%
the%House%shuts%down%to%anything%the%conversation%or%issue%of%public%safety,%how%do%we%get%it%
right,%this%is%not%right%what%we're%doing,%obviously.%How%do%we%get%it%right?%How%do%we%create%ah%
create%a%safety,%security,%and%the%best%way%to%do%this%is%through%education%and%jobs,%and%the%
creation%of%a%job.%There's%men%that%have%job%skills%who%are%in%jail.%Or%we%can%get%them%job%skills%
when%they%come%home.%Or%create%programs%while%they%incarcerated%so%they%come%home%with%
job(ready%skills.%This%stuff%is%doable.%It's%all%doable.%And%if%we%really%want%to%show%that%we're%
doing%something%with%people's%money,%then%this%is%shit%we%gotta%do.%%
[1:23:44]%
28%
%

Tape%52(%February%14,%2011%

TYRON%ALI:%Again,%you%know,%it's%one%of%those%things,%do%you%think%that%you%can%garner%support%
from%the%House?%
RON%WATERS:%Yea.%I%had%it%with%Dwight%before%he%was%gone,%I%got%it%with%some%of%the%members%
now.%But%I%definitely%can%get%it%with%a%lot%of%the%leadership%I%had%is%way%back%so%we%cool.%
Dermody%always%agrees%with%me%that%we%have,%and%he's%a%former%prosecutor,%that%what%we're%
doing%in%the%courts%isn't%working.%It's%not%working,%I%mean%it's%clear%aint%working.%We%keep%doing%
the%same%shit%man,%we%getting%the%same%results.%
TYRON%ALI:%So%if%we,%if%we,%let%me%see%if%I'm%reading%this%right.%So%you%think%you've%identified%the%
problem.%
RON%WATERS:%Yes.%I'm%a%lawmaker.%
TYRON%ALI:%And%you%think%that%we%can%garner%enough%support%in%the%house,%to%push%the%agenda%
through%and%ultimately%work%it%through%the%Senate%to%get%funded.%
RON%WATERS:%Right.%If%we%get,%if%we%have%groups%of%something%to%compare%it%to,%what%we're%
doing%with%what%other%states%are%doing(%other%states%are%way%ahead%of%us.%Pennsylvania%is%so%far%
behind%on%this%issue.%Virginia,%Texas,%New%York,%Detroit,%Michigan,%some%of%the%other,%I%think%23%
states%are%cutting%down%on%their%prison%population.%We're%the%only%state%that's%going%up.%The%
only%state%that's%going%up,%building%new%prisons%man.%The%rest%of%them%maybe%is%stabilizing.%
We're%the%only%state%going%in%the%wrong%direction.%It's%an%argument%that%could%be%made,%and%
now%that%I%got%the%clergy%talking%the%same%stuff,%the%Attorney,%not%the%Attorney%General,%the%
Auditor%General%is%talking%the%same%stuff%now,%he's%monitoring%these%books,%he%says...%
TYRON%ALI:%Wagner?%
RON%WATERS:%Yea,%Wagner's%saying%it%too.%Wagner%had%a%press%conference%a%few%weeks%ago.%
Saying%the%same%thing%now%too.%This%is%the%new%movement,%this%is%the%civil%rights%movement.%
This%is%how%we%get,%this%is%how%we%stop%doing%what%we're%doing%and%try%to%find%a%fix%and%started%
working%out%what's%wrong%with%these%men,%what's%wrong%with%our%society%and%how%do%we%try%to%
turn%the%lives%around%of%these%men%and%increase%public%safety.%I'm%tired%of%not%being%able%to%sit%
on%my%porch%like%I%used%to%30%years%ago,%and%I%know%a%lot%of%people%are%tired%of%it.%You%know,%we%
have%to%break,%we%keep%saying%we%have%to%get%back%control%but%we're%not%doing%it.%Also%have%this%
school%superintendent%on%my%side.%I%got%a%lot%of%people%on%my%side%on%this%thing.%I%think%it's%this,%
maybe%you%can%help%me%but%it's%just%a%way%of%how%do%you%grab%it,%take%control%of%it%and%offer%
people%a%positive%way%that%already%know%that%stuff%too,%but%these%people%are%spending%their%
time%on%it%to%give%them%some,%some%enough%vision%that%they've%been%umm%I%have%the%vision,%but%
making%sure%that%other%people%can%see%it.%People%know%that%what%I'm%saying%is%right,%it's%just%a%
matter%of%how%do%I%give%it%some%identity%where%people%will%see,%now%here's%the%model,%here%is%
something%that%we%can%point%to.%Here's%something%that%will%work.%The%former%police%
commissioner,%Commissioner%Johnson,%he%wants%to%help,%cause%he%retired%now.%There's%a%lot%of%
ways%and%we%gotta%stop%this%shit%man.%We%go%to%a%federal%prison,%they%expect%61,000%inmates%
29%
%

Tape%52(%February%14,%2011%

over%the%next%three%years,%up%from%51%to%61.%That's%10,000%more%people%going%to%jail.%And%then%
add%to%that,%that%means%jails%are%gonna%be%maxed%out%again.%So%that%means%they%gonna%build%4%
more.%I%mean,%sooner%or%later%we%gotta%say%enough%is%enough.%I'm%saying%now%is%enough.%Let's%
turn%it%around.%Listen,%you%have%to%present%something%that%they%can%buy%into.%If%they%can%spend%
this%kind%of%money%on%prisons%man,%imagine%why%they%cant%spend%money%on%public%safety.%We%
should%be%the%one%grabbing%the%public%safety%issue%by%the%balls.%%
[1:27:50]%
TYRON%ALI:%Can%you%have%your%legislative%director%put%together%a%small%package%for%me?%
RON%WATERS:%Yea...%
TYRON%ALI:%As%to%what%you%want%to%do,%what%we,%first%of%all,%let's%start%at%the%beginning.%What%
the%mission%statement%of%the%non(profit%would%be,%who%we%would%put%in%terms%of%board%of%
directors,%maybe%2(3%people%for%now,%nothing%major,%cause%you%want%to%try%a%pilot%program.%And%
then%how%much,%you%know,%in%terms%of%resources,%let%them%itemize%for%me%what%we%need%in%
order%to%breathe%life,%not%to%fund%the%whole%thing((%
RON%WATERS:%No...%
TYRON%ALI:%((%Just%to%breathe%life%into%it.%%
RON%WATERS:%%Breathe%life.%
TYRON%ALI:%%You%know?%Let's%just%assume%that%we%could%help%it,%help%it%get%its%first%real%breath,%
cause%%
RON%WATERS:%Right.%
TYRON%ALI%((%I%think%that's%what%you're%talking%about,%you%know?%
RON%WATERS:%Yea.%
TYRON%ALI:%And%then%we%could%go%from%there.%I'm%interested%in%helping.%%You%know,%but%
sometimes%when%you%want%to%help,%you%have%to%know%how%to%help.%You%know?%And%sometimes%
then%it's%not%the%easiest%thing%to%identify%cause,%the%problem%at%times%is%large%and%then%it%is%deep.%
[1:29:05]%
RON%WATERS:%Well%you%know%when%I%look%what%Geoffrey%Canada%did%up%in%New%York%in%the%
Harlem%Children's%zone,%so%for%him%now%to%be%a%national%model,%everybody's%looking%at%this%guy%
as,%and%he's%no%different%than%you%or%me,%you%know?%He%just%had%an%idea.%He%had%a%vision.%You%
know,%now%the%guy%Kofi%from%last%week,%it's%you%know%five%years%ago%they%had%an%income%of%41%
million%dollars,%you%know%from%a%$5,000%donation%now%they%have%41%million%dollars,%you%know%
it's%a%lot%of%money%that%he's%getting%for%just%taking%care%of%the%neighborhood,%just%taking%care%of%
the%neighborhood.%Ran%on%the%cause%around%children,%keeping%them%on%the%right%path,%sending%
30%
%

Tape%52(%February%14,%2011%

these%children%and%successfully%get%through%all%the%way%to%college%and%developing%the%
neighborhood.%I%mean%he%has%developed%the%neighborhood%block%by%block%and%turned%those%
properties%that%were%abandoned%shells%into,%into%expensive%properties%that%have%raised%the%
property%value%for%everybody%around%the%damn%neighborhood.%He%has%done%a%model,%schools,%
everything%inside%of%this%facility.%This%neighborhood%transformation,%thats%what%this%is%about,%
public%safety,%you%know.%Stop%crime,%it%showed%that%black%people%can%learn,%it%showed%that%
people%of%color%could%learn,%it,%he's%done%a%tremendous%job.%And%I%don't%see%why%we%can't%do%
something%similar%to%that%intervention.%
TYRON%ALI:%Well,%you%know,%a%lot%of%times,%as%I%told%you%in%the%beginning,%policy%has%shifted,%
policy%shifted.%So%I'm%looking%to%you%for%leadership%on%this%because%you%know%this%is%outside%of%
my%scope,%number%one.%Number%two%I%dont%know%enough%about%the%problem,%but%we%are%
willing%to%help%solve%the%problem,%you%know?%You%know%you%can%always%count%on%me.%%
[1:31:07]%
RON%WATERS:%(([inaudible]%
TYRON%ALI:%But%if%you%can%have%someone%put%together%a%little%three%or%five%pager.%You%know?%
And%again,%our%folks%are%strange%in%the%sense%that%if%you%overwhelm%them,%they%stay%
overwhelmed.%(laughing)%Cause%they%ask%a%lot%of%questions%and%what%I'm%trying%to%do%is%find%a%
strategy%to%breathe%some%life%into%this%project%without%anyone%being%overwhelmed%by%the%
project,%you%know?%
RON%WATERS:%It's%a%new%venture%for%them%and%I%wouldn't%want%them,%or%even%you%to%either%
concern%yourself%about%you%know,%trailing%it%I%mean,%going%through%the%new%trail.%There%are%
people%who%are,%like%my%daughter,%Monica,%you%know%her.%She's%one%of%the%board%members%of%
creating%a%village,%%but%there%are%there%are%some%things%that%the%community%needs%in%order%for%it%
to%be%able%to%be%that,%in%the%City%of%Brotherly%Love%and%we're%in%a%great%place%to%do%it%too,%
because%its%America's%birth%place,%back%towards%gaining%control%of%it's%own%destiny.%That%kind%of%
stuff%has%to%happen.%
TYRON%ALI:%I%agree%with%you.%I%agree%with%you.%And%again,%we%go%back%to,%and%I,%we%go%back%to%
you.%We%go%back%to%the%public%seeing%Representative%Waters,%not%just%doing%the%popular%thing,%
but%doing%the%right%thing%for%the%right%reason,%at%the%right%time.%You%know,%all%of%those%things,%all%
of%those%things%are%important.%And%the%fact%that%we%can%help%support%makes%all%the%sense%in%the%
world.%I%understand%and%I%appreciate%you%saying,%you%know%Ty%we%don't%have%to%reinvent%the%
wheel.%Then%show%me%what%parts%of%the%wheel%we%need%to%invent.%And%then%teach%me%how%to%
move%that%wheel%you%know,%because%I%will%help%you%build%another%wheel.%%
[1:33:10]%
RON%WATERS:%Ok,%and%I%understand%that.%There's%a%lot%of%stuff%that%you%specialize%in.%This%is,%this%
has%been%one%of%my%issues.%I%see%it%as%something%important.%I%see%it%as,%I%know%that%other%people%
have,%the%resources%are%out%there,%I%go%to%the%wrong%bars,%and%then%it's%snowing.%There's%a%lot%of%
31%
%

Tape%52(%February%14,%2011%

people,%I%know%the%(???)%these%people%have%a%tons%of%money,%and%they,%it's%like%they%((
[inaudible]((%but%he%has%stock%money.%You%know%he%got%the%$41%million%and%he%said,%ya'll%gotta%
stop.%Cause%we%didn't%have%the%capacity%to%do%what%these%corporate%people%wanted%him%to%do.%
So%like%rather%than%taking%and%sit%on%the%money%and%not%use%it,%it%got%to%be%so%much%that%he%had%
to%spend%a%little%on%a%piece%of%that.%%Let%me%first%manage%what%you%already%get%and%do%something%
with%that%before%you%pour%more%money%into%my%program.%And%so%I%think%that%the%money%is%out%
there...%
TYRON%ALI:%Who%in%the%House%do%you%think%would%support%this%with%you?%
RON%WATERS:%Dermody.%I%think%um%if%I%could%get%the%speaker%to%agree%to%do%this%committee%of%
the%whole,%because%out%of%this%committee%of%the%whole%I%have%to%be%able%to%also%tell%them%what%I%
believe%we%need%to%start%working%on,%we%going%to%stop%investing%tax%payer%dollars%in%punishment%
and%re,%re(directing%that%money%towards%real%public%safety.%It%has%to%be%(%the%blueprint%has%to%be%
in%place.%The%blueprint%Detroit%that%had%a%blueprint%in%place.%I%believe%I%have%a%blueprint.%I%just%
need%to%make%sure%that%I%have%the%ability%to%um%put%it%together.%
[1:35:06]%
TYRON%ALI:%And%you%think%you%can%put%something%together%for%me%by%next%week.%
RON%WATERS:%We%can%get%something%together.%I%got%two%right(hands%that%work%for%me,%these%
guys%in%jail.%They%got%nothing%but%time%on%their%hands.%They%don't%even%want%the%credit,%they%just%
do%the%work.%These%guys%stick%around%by%themselves%all%day,%they%got%the%research,%they%got%
computers%and%shit.%They%just%um%they'll%do%anything%I%tell%them%to%do.%I%got,%I%have%never%ever%
agreed%to%anything%to%be%able%to%actually%have%the%hardest%criminals%in%the%world%working%for%
me.%Why%do%you%do%it?%Cause,%SCI%Graterford%is%the%fifth%largest%maximum%facility%in%the%nation.%I%
got%the%lifers%inside%of%there,%the%hardest%of%the%hardest%criminals%man%working%for%me.%The%
secretary%of%corrections%knows%it.%Of%course%the%superintendent%knows%it,%they%all%know%it.%%
TYRON%ALI:%That's%impressive.%
RON%WATERS:%That's%right%man.%
TYRON%ALI:%%I%can't%say%any%other%person%has%that.%
RON%WATERS:%No%
TYRON%ALI:%Can%you?%
RON%WATERS:%In%the%world.%In%the%world.%We%just%had%to%call%a%call%out%back%in%2000((%let%me%tell%
you%what%we%did.%That's%why%I%can%talk%about%evidence.%Back%in%2007%we%had%something%called%
the%Old%School/New%School%call%out.%It%was%at%the%Community%College%of%Philadelphia.%Guys%that%
work%for%me%put%together%a%platform%for%them%to%speak%to%people%of%the%community%about%the%
senseless%crimes%going%on,%so%we%put%together%a%teleconference,%technology%to%have%people%
come%to%community%college%and%speak%to%them%and%see%a%video,%not%video,%see%the%screens,%we%
32%
%

Tape%52(%February%14,%2011%

had%a%projector%up%there.%Well%the%guys%from%Graterford%that%see%the%people%that%go%to%the%
college%and%the%people%at%community%college%could%see%the%people%at%Graterford.%We%had%900%
inmates%waiting%for%them%in%their%auditorium%in%the%backdrop,%12%guys%on%the%panel%who%were%
selected%to%speak%about%senseless%crime.%To%tell%these%men%in%the%community%to%raise%good%sons%
at%home,%be%a%man,%stop%sending%your%son%up%there%for%us%to%raise%your%child.%Keep%his%ass%at%
home.%You%know,%they%asked%me%to%put%this%together.%I%was%scared.%My%career's%on%the%line%with%
this.%
TYRON%ALI:%Right,%right.%
RON%WATERS:%In%19,%in%2006,%there%were%406%homicides%in%the%city,%right?%406.%In%the%first%14%
days%of%2007,%there%were%26%homicides%in%the%city.%So%not%only%did%we%have%a%terrible%year%in%
2006,%but%2007%was%getting%to%be%even%worse%with%the%killings.%
TYRON%ALI:%Its%always,%it's%difficult.%%
RON%WATERS:%Guess%what?%After%we%had%that%call%out,%first%of%its%kind%ever%in%the%history%of%the%
world,%first%of%its%kind,%I%got%the%Department%of%Corrections%to%agree%that%they%would%hear%it%too.%
Those%900%men%in%the%backdrop,%looking%at%the%audience,%to%the%2500%people%I%had%at%the%
community%college,%Gave%all%those%guys%marching%orders,%about%go%back%out%there%and%fix%it.%%
There%were%no%homicides%in%the%city%for%10%days%after%that%broadcast.%I%mean,%I%feel%sincerely%
that%this%shit%works.%These%guys%have%what%they%call%street%credibility.%They%could%talk%to%some%
stuff%that%you%and%I%can't%talk%to,%to%these%guys%in%the%neighborhood.%That's%why%they%go%to%the%
schools,%to%educate%(([inaudible]((%and%then%those%guy%talk%to%them,%I%can't%talk%to%them%like%
these%guys%can.%They%can%talk.%You%don't%want%to%come%up%here.%So%what%I'm%saying%is%that%we%
have%some%models%of%programs%that%we%have%that%are%genuine%precedent.%We%have%something%
that%will%work%already%and%it%works.%And%if%we%saved%I%dont%know%how%many%lives%in%2007,%with%
the%program,%from%14(0%in%10%days,%that%wasn't%a%coincidence%brother(%that%was%the%guys%at%
Graterford%and%what%took%me%out((%people%claimed%that%Kenyatta%and%all%those%guys,%he%wasn't%a%
State%Rep%then,%they%said%how%did%you%get%those%guys?%Those%were%real%gangsters%
TYRON%ALI:%Can%I%give%this%to%you%hun?%and%I%need%a%receipt.%
FEMALE%SERVER:%Ok%Ill%grab%the%check.%
TYRON%ALI:%Ok%
RON%WATERS:%They%come%to%me,%how%did%you%get%those%guys,%these%real%gangsters,%these%real%
gangsters,%real%real%hard%nose%gangsters%to%get%them%to%do%what%you%had%them%do?%And%I%told%
them,%I%don't%know.%I%don't%know%how%I%got%them%to%do%it.%But%I%got%it%done.%%
TYRON%ALI:%Kenyatta,%you%think%he%would%support%it?%
RON%WATERS:%He%already%does.%He%loves%it.%
TYRON%ALI:%But%he's,%he's%leaving.%You're%not%gonna%have%his%vote.%
33%
%

Tape%52(%February%14,%2011%

RON%WATERS:%Yea,%dog,%he's%gone.%%(([inaudible]((%
TYRON%ALI:%He's%out%of%there.%
RON%WATERS:%He's,%even%when%he's%on%council,%he'll%be%on%board%with%me.%Cause%Curtis%Jones%is%
on%board%with%me.%
TYRON%ALI:%Curtis?%
[1:40:11]%
RON%WATERS:%Curtis,%yea.%We%had%a%meeting%with%the%judges.%And%the%DAs%on%this%stuff.%We,%
they%establishing%a%(RR?)%program%too.%Everybody's%on%board%with%this.%Man,%we%gotta%stop%
going%in%this%direction,%this%is%great.%This%is%great%for%public%safety,%this%is%great%for%education%of%
kids,%this%is%great%for%bringing%our%men%home%and%putting%them%back%together%with%their%family%
and%raise%their%family.%There's%guys%at%Graterford%also%have%a%new%program%that%they%want%to%
start%that's%gonna%bring%the%men%and%the%children%together%so%they%can%stop%the%cycle%of%
generation%of%generations%going%to%jail.%%
TYRON%ALI:%I%just,%I%think%it's%a%wonderful%idea.%Um,%you%know%again,%it's%about%not%knowing%
enough%about%the%issue.%You%know,%I%had%a%long%conversation%with%Sultan%Akmed.%(phonetic)%
RON%WATERS:%Akmed.%
TYRON%ALI:%And%we%just,%you%know,%I%had%helped%him%that%I%don't%know%enough%about%the%issue%
to%say%that%I%helped%them%and%it%made%the%difference,%you%know?%
RON%WATERS:%He%be%out%there%looking%for%help,%too.%
TYRON%ALI:%(to%server)%Thank%you%love.%
FEMALE%SERVER:%You're%receipts%in%there%for%ya.%
TYRON%ALI:%Uh%huh,%thank%you.%
FEMALE%SERVER:%Have%a%wonderful%evening%guys.%
TYRON%ALI:%You%too.%Probably%see%you%tomorrow.%
RON%WATERS:%He%understands%the%significant...%
FEMALE%SERVER:%I'm%off%tomorrow.%
TYRON%ALI:%Wednesday.%
FEMALE%SERVER:%I%have%a%day%off.%%
TYRON%ALI:%(laughing)%
RON%WATERS:%One%day.%
34%
%

Tape%52(%February%14,%2011%

FEMALE%SERVER:%One%day,%yea.%
TYRON%ALI:%One%day.%She's%pleasant.%
RON%WATERS:%She%is.%She%was%our%server%last%year,%last%night%
TYRON%ALI:%Yes,%she%was.%She%was%the%same%girl.%Yep.%%%The%biggest%thing,%you%know,%I%think%it's%
your%neighborhood,%just%because%of%the%sheer%poverty,%I%think%it's%worse,%cause%that%poverty%
is...it's%not%something%that%you%can,%that%takes%one%generation%to%climb%out%of%it.%It%is%a%multi(
generational%effort.%That's%the%problem%because%most%young%people,%you%know%they're%5%or%6%
years%old,%young%kids%and%their%father's%incarcerated,%and%then%it%takes%the%little%boy%growing%up%
to%sort%of%help%that%generation%along.%He%can't%look%to%his%dad%cause%his%dad%is%lost.%You%know?%
[1:41:22]%
RON%WATERS:%That's%so%truth.%It's%so%sad.%But%we%gotta%get%these%lawmakers%all%to%realize%they%
gotta%stop%writing%some%of%these%damn%laws%they%write.%
TYRON%ALI:%You%and%your%folks.%
RON%WATERS:%Yea,%well...%
TYRON%ALI:%(laughs)%
RON%WATERS:%They%pass%those%bill%last%week,%passed%a%bill,%it's%hard%not%to%vote%in%favor%of%this%
stuff,%but%it%was%dealing%with%homeless%people%who%come%into%the%city%who%was%on%Megans%list%
of%a%certain%predators,%and%that%they%must%register%and%if%they%don't%register,%they%get%two%years%
in%jail.%Now...%
TYRON%ALI:%But%if%they're%sexual%predators,%you%don't%think%they%ought%to%register?%
RON%WATERS:%Yea.%They%should.%But%giving%them%two%years%in%jail%is%is%kind%of%extreme.%Now,%
first%he%was%homeless,%now%you're%gonna%give%him%two%years%in%jail.%Now%you%took%him%from%
being%homeless%to%homeless,%I%mean%to%a%home.%And,%and%I%didn't%argue%the%bill%because%I%didn't%
want%to%argue%against%anything%that%sounds%good%(([inaudible]((%My%argument%is%what%are%you%
doing%with%the%guy%while%he's%in%jail?%
TYRON%ALI:%Sure.%
RON%WATERS:%He's%gonna%come%home.%Now,%what%you%could%do%is%nothing.%Then%he%comes%
home,%he%says,%shit,%that%wasn't%too%bad.%I%had%three%hots%and%a%cot.%Now%I'm%coming%back%out,%
homeless%again,%shit%I'm%going%back%to%jail.%I%won't%sign%up%again.%Ok?%That's%all%he%has%to%do,%
basically%under%the%law,%all%he%has%to%do%is%not%register.%And%once%he%don't%register%he%gets%three%
years,%minimum.%So%he%goes%to%jail%for%two%years,%comes%out.%He%tries,%now%he's%struggling,%he's%
homeless%again.%Now%he's%cold%in%the%winter,%what%do%you%think%he's%gonna%do?%Fuck%signing%
that,%I%won't%sign%that%cause%if%I%don't%I%get%two%years.%And%go%back%to%jail.%Those%are%the%kind%of%
unscientific,%not%thought%out%laws%we%came%up%with.%
35%
%

Tape%52(%February%14,%2011%

[1:44:18]%
TYRON%ALI:%But%what%percentage%of%people%do%you%actually%think%think%that%way?%
RON%WATERS:%About%not%signing%up%again?%
TYRON%ALI:%Yes.%
RON%WATERS:%The%ones%who%go%to%jail%and%find%out,%that%this%aint%too%bad,%I%could%do%two%years.%
I'm%%Im%thinking%that,%my%thing%is,%what%if%you,%why%don't%we%$75,000%(([inaudible]((%Why%you%
just%gonna%lock%them%up%with%these%people%in%jail,%you%know?%%
TYRON%ALI:%Alright...%
RON%WATERS:%If%you're%not%careful,%they'll%come%out%and%rape%somebody%cause%they'll%be%mad%
and%angry%and%what%they%call%addicted%to%justice,%somebody%gotta%pay.%Things%like%that%if,%he%
gone%come%out%mad%and%he%comes%out%ok,%then%he's%going%back%again.%The%only%thing%is%
spending%taxpayer%dollars,%but%if%comes%out%(([inaudible]((%he%gonna%take%it%out%on%somebody%
and%the%guy%will%come%out%and%kill%(([inaudible]%
TYRON%ALI:%Look,%let's%try%to%do%this:%put%the%talking%points%together%for%me,%let's%see%if%we%can%
breathe%a%little%bit%of%air%into%this%and%I%will%find%the%money%to%put%it%together,%right?%But%you%
gotta%start%helping%me%now.%
[1:45:21]%
RON%WATERS:%Listen,%I'm%going%back,%I%found%out%today%I'm%going%back%on%judiciary%
TYRON%ALI:%Alright.%
RON%WATERS:%I%have%to%say...%
TYRON%ALI:%Well%we%passed%a%law%saying%they%gotta%collect%all%the%parking%tickets%and%you%can't%
do%that%(laughing).%
RON%WATERS:%Oh%no,%I%mean%all%this%stuff%is%done%.%
TYRON%ALI:%We'll%figure%it%out...I%know.%Why%do%you%think%Im%coming%to%you?%You're%the%man%to%
get%the%man,%that's%how%it%is.%
RON%WATERS:%They%said%they%want%me%back%on%there%because%the%chair%said%that%nothing%going%
on,%they%need%me%back.%The%leadership%say,%we%need%you%back.%Go%back%to%that%committee,%get%
some%life%into%it%again.%
[1:45:57]%
TYRON%ALI:%Where'd%you%park?%You%outside?%Ok,%I'm%gonna%walk%with%you%cause%I%got%something%
for%you.%Where%are%you?%On%this%side?%

36%
%

Tape%52(%February%14,%2011%

RON%WATERS:%Yea,%I%don't%know%if%we%can%go%out%here%though.%
TYRON%ALI:%No,%I%don't%%
RON%WATERS:%They%got%them%all%blocked%off.%
FEMALE%SERVER:%Thank%you%gentlemen.%
TYRON%ALI:%I%saw%you%all%day%today,%didn't%I?%Thank%you.%
FEMALE%SERVER:%Yes,%yes%you%did.%%
RON%WATERS:%(???)%
FEMALE%SERVER:%Yes,%I%did,%and%be%festive%so%I%can%look%good%for%my%guests.%
RON%WATERS:%(([inaudible]%
TYRON%ALI:%Thank%you%very%much.%
RON%WATERS:%Alright.%%
TYRON%ALI:%I%think%we%can%come%out%this%way.%
RON%WATERS:%Yea.%%[inaudible]%
TYRON%ALI:%I%was,%I've%been%here,%a%round%here%all%day%long.%
RON%WATERS:%Really?%
TYRON%ALI:%Yeah,%you're%meeting%number%I%think%5%or%6%or%something%like%that.%
RON%WATERS:%(laughing)%You%gonna%blow%up%man.%[inaudible]((%%
TYRON%ALI:%300,%no%I'm%not%gonna%do%that.%No,%I'm%not%gonna%do%that.%%
RON%WATERS:%Is%that%how%you%did%it%the%last%time?%
TYRON%ALI:%That's%how%I%did%it.%Now%I%learned%my%lesson.%
RON%WATERS:%I%see%you%didn't%eat%just%now,%man.%
TYRON%ALI:%No,%yea%no%you%can't%do%that.%
RON%WATERS:%Thank%you%for%dinner%though%man%
TYRON%ALI:%Oh%you're%welcome%brother.%Anytime.%But%the%thing%about%it%is,%with%regard%to%the%
project,%if%we%put%something%together,%as%long%as%it's%sustainable%((%
RON%WATERS:%It%has%to%be.%
TYRON%ALI:%((%as%long%as%it's%sustainable...%

37%
%

Tape%52(%February%14,%2011%

RON%WATERS:%It%has%to%be.%
TYRON%ALI:%You%know%we'll%be%able%to,%this%is%me%right%here.%
RON%WATERS:%Watch%it,%watch%it%
TYRON%ALI:%It's%ok.%
RON%WATERS:%%But%you%know,%they%also%got%this%guys%who's%a%Senator%on%the%federal%level%
named%Jim%Webb%out%of%Virginia,%who%tried%to%do%the%same%thing.%He%called%for%reform.%
[1:47:42]%
TYRON%ALI:%Where%are%you%parked,%over%here?%
RON%WATERS:%Yea,%down,%right%up%the%street%
TYRON%ALI:%Ok.%
RON%WATERS:%Closest%parking%space%I%could%find.%You%right%here?%
TYRON%ALI:%Yea,%yea.%Let%me%give%you%this%man,%(([inaudible]((%Thats%for%you%alright.%
RON%WATERS:%Alright,%thank%you%brother.%%
TYRON%ALI:%Alright.%
RON%WATERS:%Man,%you%take%care%
TYRON%ALI:%Alright%man.%Ron%look,%I'll%call%you,%Ill%call%you%Friday.%
RON%WATERS:%Friday?%
TYRON%ALI:%Yea.%
RON%WATERS:%Alright.%
TYRON%ALI:%Alright.%%[1:48:07]%
%
CLAUDE%THOMAS:%This%device%is%being%deactivated%at%this%time,%again%Monday,%February%the%
14th,%year%2011,%current%time%is%21:11:00%hours.%Is%that%when%you%just%gave%it%to%him?%%
%
(Tape%not%deactivated)%%
TYRON%ALI:%Yup.%%
CLAUDE%THOMAS:%Ok.%%
TYRON%ALI:%And%I%said,%here%man,%this%is%for%you.%
38%
%

Tape%52(%February%14,%2011%

CLAUDE%THOMAS:%Ok.%I%was%hoping%you%didn't%let%him%get%in%the%car%cause%he%would%look%at%me%
and%say,%he%won't%know%where%he%knows%me%from.%
TYRON%ALI:%No,%I%would%never%let%that%happen.%
CLAUDE%THOMAS:%But%in%the%future,%if%something%like%that%happen,%and%cause,%you're%gonna%get,%
youre%gonna%have%an%occasion%where%someone%doesn't%have%a%ride%and%so%forth%and%they%may%
say%can%you%give%me%a%ride%and%your%position%is,%I%do%not%conduct%any%business%around%this%
person%or%allow,%around%him,%I%keep%it%separate%or%I%don't%conduct,%I%do%not%conduct%any%business%
around%him%or%allow%him%to%see%my%associates.%
TYRON%ALI:%This%is%what%I%was%trying%to%tell%you,%they%keep%calling%my%phone.%
CLAUDE%THOMAS:%Ok.%
TYRON%ALI:%Like,%Ty,%where%you%at?%
CLAUDE%THOMAS:%So%you...did%you%call%them%back%and%say%where%you%at?%
TYRON%ALI:%No,%I%didn't%say%nothing,%because%I%was%waiting,%you%know%what%I%mean?%
CLAUDE%THOMAS:%Yea,%yea,%you%know%we%know.%Where's%McGraths?%
TYRON%ALI:%You're%gonna%have%to%give%me%some%cash%
CLAUDE%THOMAS:%I%got%you.%%
TYRON%ALI:%Alright,%I%don't%really,%is%uh%this%is%the%representative%calling.%
CLAUDE%THOMAS:%Right,%right.%
%

39%
%

T""57""March"1st,"2011"
CLAUDE" THOMAS:" Special" Agent," Pennsylvania" Office" of" Attorney" General." Badge" number" 118." A"
certification" number" is" A1418." Todays" date" is" Tuesday," March" 1st," year" 2011." Current" time" is" 17:03"
hundred""hours."This"recording"device"will"be"placed"on"CIS2010S01"in"reference"to"Investigation"Number"
36S622."CI"will"be"proceeding"to"a"location"within"the"confines"of"Harrisburg"City,"Dauphin"County"and"
meeting" with" VB," recording" conversations" in" reference" to" this" investigation." This" tape" will" remain"
activated"until"I"deactivate"it"at"a"later"time."
SS"07:08SS"
(Phone"rings)"
TYRON"ALI:"(On"the"phone)"Hello?"Youre"at"your"office?"Okay,"I"am"three"blocks"away."You"couldve"just"
picked"me"up."But"no."Ill"be"there"in"a"couple"of"minutes."Alright,"thanks."Are"you"inside"your"office?"Are"
you"inside"the"office"or"outside?"Youre"inside?"Okay."No,"no,"no,"Ill"come"in."Ill"come"in."Alright."
Thanks.""
SS18:03SS"
TYRON"ALI:"(Knocks)"

"

UNIDENTFIED"FEMALE:"Hey,"why"you"knocking?"Were"still"open.""
TYRON"ALI:"(Laughs)"Okay."
UNIDENTIFIED"FEMALE:""This"is,"people"just"howl"at"this"time."While"youre"with"him,"Im"gonna"head"out"
TYRON"ALI:"(???)"How"are"you"dear?""

"

UNIDENTIFIED"FEMALE:""If"Im"not"here,"you"got"somebodyHave"a"good"evening,"Ill"see"both"of"you"in"
the"morningWell,"Ill"see"you"in"the"morning."Ty,"tomorrow"
TYRON"ALI:"(Laughs)"Bye."
UNIDENTIFIED"FEMALE:""Alright."
TYRON"ALI:"Hey,"can"I"talk"to"you"for"a"minute?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Yeah."You"want"a"glass"of"water?"You"want"to"catch"your"breath?"
TYRON"ALI:"No,"no,"no,"no,"no."Im"good."Im"good."Just"running"around."So,"my"guy"from"D.C.,"he"called"
me."You"want"them"not"to"be"able"to"take"out"the"money?""
VANESSA"BROWN:"How"do"you,"tell"me"the"process"first"and"then"Ill"tell"you"if"I"want"you"to"do"it"or"not."
TYRON"ALI:"Its"not"the"process."This"is"something,"here.""The"process"isthe"process,"but"we"have"a"bit"
of"a"chip"to"play."This"is"for"who?"This"is"for"Tolbert."Or"its"for"the"neighborhood"coalition?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""This"is"for"the"community,"the"190th"district."Thatslet"me"do"this"first."
1"
"

T""57""March"1st,"2011"
TYRON"ALI:"So"its"a"community"grant?"
VANESSA"BROWN:"Well,"they"didnt,"I"dont"know,"I"was"new."I"was"a"freshman,"green"as"green"can"be."
and"Ron,"Ill"tell"you"the"story"again,"Ron"said"to"me,"Did"you"get"your"whim?"He"said,"Because"theyre"
giving"it"out"and"you"need"to"go"get"run"and"get"yours."And"then"Ron"is"like,"today"or"the"next"day,"so"
um"I"ran"upstairs"and"I"said,"Hey!"What"about"my"share?"and"thats"when"I"got"the"money."They"said,"
Okay,"the"moneys"gotta"be"in"by"the"end"of"the"day"tomorrow."I"mean,"the"um,"the"requests"for"the"
money,"have"to"be"in"by"the"end"of"the"day"tomorrow."They"said,"Do"you"have"anyone"we"can"get"that"
can"do"that"in"24"hours?"That"can"turn"it"over?"And"I"said,"Yea,"Lee"Tolbert"gets"it"all"the"time"So"I"
went"to"Lee"and"I"think"he"used"your"probably"to"go"to"D.C."for"$50,000"and"he"said,"No"problem."I"
said,"Now"this"money"is"my"money"for"community."I"said,"Are"we"clear"with"that?"Its"not"for"West"
Philadelphia"Coalition,"this"is"going"to"go"through"you"to"the"community."Its"a"501c3,"youre"my"
fiduciary."He"said,"No"problem."Thats"when"they"submitted"the"paperwork"which"I"never"got"to"see"
because"I"was"on"the"House"floor"and"the"paperwork,"the"way"they"submitted"it,"was"all"for"operating"
costs."For"their"organization."And"not"to"do"any"community"projects.""
TYRON"ALI:"Not"to"do"any"community"projects?"
VANESSA"BROWN:"Which"I"just"found"out."Which"is"probably"my"fault"because"I"should"have"probably"
looked"at"it"a"long"time"ago."
TYRON"ALI:"Mm"hmm."
VANESSA"BROWN:"And"looked"and"how"they"wrote"it"out."
TYRON"ALI:"You"dont"have"a"copy"of"it"at"all?"
VANESSA"BROWN:"I"can"get"it."Im"sure"I"probably"have"it"in"an"email."
TYRON"ALI:"Do"you"have"access"to"it?"
VANESSA"BROWN:"It"might"take"me"a"minute"to"get"it."
TYRON"ALI:"Can"I"get"the"application"number?"Cause"that"would"be"helpful."
VANESSA"BROWN:"Sure.""Do"you"want"me"toHow"much"time"do"you"have?"
TYRON"ALI:"I"have"enough!"Im"done"for"the"day.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""Do"you"have"enough"time"for"me"to"get"the"application"
TYRON"ALI:"Yeah,"yeah,"yeah."Im"done."I"just"need"to"get"this"to"my"guy"tonight"so"we"can"move"on"it."
VANESSA"BROWN:"Let"me"get"it."Okay."So"I"saved"everything"thats"on"it."
TYRON"ALI:"Okay."
VANESSA"BROWN:"So"I"should,"just"give"me"a"few"moments"to"look"it"up."
2"
"

T""57""March"1st,"2011"
TYRON"ALI:"Take"your"time,"dear."
VANESSA"BROWN:""So,"now"that"they"told"me"that"they"have"the"money,"and"I"said,"Well"good,"we"
need"to"get"together"so"we"can"decide"whos"going"to"get"what.""
TYRON"ALI:"MmShmm"
VANESSA"BROWN:""And"if"its"cleared"all"of"this,"he"said"he"needed"$10,000"to"go"to"the"community."
Yeah,"out"of"that"money."So"he"brought"me"to"the"office"and"said"I"need"to"take"it"out"of"that"money."
Now"it"was"supposed"to"be"all"for"operating"costs"but"now"$10,000,"Im"going"to"have"to"figure"out"how"
to"get"$10,000"to"the"community,"right?"(Laughs)"So,"I"forget,"they"say"all"this"stuff"in"the"beginning"once"
they"dont"remember"anything."(Inaudible)"(Sighs)"The"contract"is"fully"executed"to"implement"what"has"
been"sent"to"the"Comptroller"for"processing"
TYRON"ALI:"Can"you"print"that"up"for"me?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Yeah."
TYRON"ALI:"Okay."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Let"me"find"the"number,"oh"here"it"is:"The"account"information"is"as"follows."Yup."I"
believe"in"my"heart"of"hearts"that"were"going"to"get"where"we"need"to"be,"were"just"going"to"have"to,"
ya"know."Hes"going"to"play"his"games,"but"hes"going"to"do"what"I"need."Because"hes"scared"to"death"
that"it"may"be"more"that"hes"not"getting."You"know?"
TYRON"ALI:"MmShmm."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Let"me"see"if"I"can"find"the"contract.""
TYRON"ALI:"Vanessa"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Oh"wait,"Im"dealing"with"two"people"because"hes"theirs."(Inaudible)"So"I"had"half"of"
it"split"up"for"the"coalition"(??)."I"think"the"numbers"on"the"same"page."
TYRON"ALI:"Yeah,"thats"what"I"need."Thanks."So"we"can"actually"track"it"down."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Now"lets"see"if"I"can"find"the"actual"contract."
TYRON"ALI:"That"would"be"perfect."And"we"only"applied"for"the"grant,"what?"The"15th"of"February?"Or"
was"it"before?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""No!"We"did"that"last"year!"
TYRON"ALI:"Okay,"November"right?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Uhh,"Im"not,"well"as"soon"as"I"got"in"here"in"2009,"weve"been"waiting"a"long"time."
So"I"got"swornSin"in"December,"I"would"say"it"was"anywhere"between"March"and"October"of"2009.""
3"
"

T""57""March"1st,"2011"
TYRON"ALI:"Okay,"so"the"actual"originateMarch"of"2009"was"the"origination"day?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Yeah,"somewhere"around"there."
TYRON"ALI:"Okay."Did"you"need"a"Senate"sponsor"for"this?"Or"you"just"
VANESSA"BROWN:""No,"that"came"from"Dwight"who"made"that"happen."
TYRON"ALI:"Okay."Hey,"do"you"thinkhey."Does"he"need"something"out"of"this"too?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Who?"Dwight?"
TYRON"ALI:"Dwight,"yeah."
VANESSA"BROWN:""No.""
TYRON"ALI:"Okay."
VANESSA"BROWN:""He"could"care"less"about"that,"about"getting"money."
TYRON"ALI:"You"never"know.""
SS26:30"
TYRON"ALI:"How"much"money"do"you"think"Lee"needs"out"of"this,"I"mean"really?"How"much"do"you"think"
he"really"needs"out"of"this?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""He"wants"10,"but"I"think"hed"really"be"happy"with"3S5.""
TYRON"ALI:"With"5?"If"he"takes"3S5,"who"do"you"think"is"going"to"be"controlling"the"rest"of"the"money?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Lee"still"will,"because"he"has"to."
TYRON"ALI:"Okay."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Cause"hes"gonna,"he"has"to"because"PCCD"is"holding"him"accountable"for"the"(???)."
That"I"cannot"get"around."
TYRON"ALI:"Of"course,"but"youll"still"be"able"to"guide"him"as"to"where"it"would"go?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Yeah."
TYRON"ALI:"I"just"want"to"make"sure"he"understands"his"position."
VANESSA"BROWN:""A"lot"of"times"I"think"he"(???)"
TYRON"ALI:"Of"course."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Cause"I,"you"know,"we"gotta"be"careful"because"a"lot"of"times"he"can"smile"in"your"
face"but"be"pissed"off"and"kick"me"in"my"back."
4"
"

T""57""March"1st,"2011"
TYRON"ALI:"Thats"why"I"was"saying"to"you"earlier"that"its"so"important"for"you"to"almost"have"someone"
there"that"you"can"trust,"or"someone"who"has"your"best"interest"at"heart."He"knows"how"I"amShes"not"
going"to"play"those"games.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""How"do"you"twowhat"is"your"past?"What"is"your"history?"How"did"you"meet?"
TYRON"ALI:"With"him?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Yeah."How"did"you"
TYRON"ALI:"Um,"we"knew"some"people"in"common."Ive"known"him"from"my"days"at"the"first"law"firm."I"
mean,"we"go"back"a"long"time."But"weve"always"been"in"different"groups,"but"he"knows"who"I"am."You"
know?"I"just"want"to"make"sure"that"he"does"not"try"to"usurp"your"authority"and"do"something"that"he"
should"not"be"able"to"do."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Because"if"he"takes"that"5,"then"the"rest"of"it"should"be"spent"for"my"needs."There"
should"be"no"disputing"on"it."
TYRON"ALI:"Were"you"able"to"locate"the"contract"or"no?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""No,"Im"not."Youre"going"to"have"to"call"Dwight"and"get"it."
TYRON"ALI:"Alright,"I"can"get"it."I"can"get"it."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Cause"he"then"came"to"me"and"put"it"above"my"LA"and"I"never"received"it."
TYRON"ALI:"Sure."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Cause"I"never"dealt"with"the"(Inaudible).""That"was"all"the"administrative"stuff."I"may"
not"have"it."
TYRON"ALI:"At"the"time"that"you,"you"ah,"from"the"time"that"you"applied"for"the"grant,"basically"there"
was"almost"a"year"and"a"half"waiting,"right?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Right."
TYRON"ALI:"Is"that"typical"for"you??"Typically"grant"cycles"are"two"behind,"not"six"behind."Because"thats"
what"youre"saying."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Right."
TYRON"ALI:"You"have"to"wait"six"cycles?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""(Inaudible)"
TYRON"ALI:"I"thought"Dwight"liked"you."

5"
"

T""57""March"1st,"2011"
VANESSA"BROWN:""I"thought"that"(Inaudible)"Kenyatta"just"got"his"at"the"same"time."Hes"the"one"that"
gave"me"the"heads"up."He"said,"Mine"just"came."Wheres"yours?"He"said,"You"better"check"on"that."
Because"he"know"we"were"in"the"same"cycle."But"then"we"didnt"get"into"any"cycles"after,"so"theres"
nothing"after"this"for"us."
TYRON"ALI:"This"is"the"only"grant"that"you"have"access"to?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Thats"it"and"you"were"big,"because"I"tried"to"put"in"for"the"following"cyclesSS"
TYRON"ALI:"Yes."
VANESSA"BROWN:""And"Dwight"was"like,"Dont"even"think"about"it."No."Cause"I"kept"saying,"okay"well"
Im"waiting"for"that"but"let"me"put"in"for"the"next"cycle"so"I"can"start"having"my"stuff"kicking"out."And"he"
was"like,"No."Theres"nothing."
TYRON"ALI:"Let"me"ask"you"something."So"you"have"control"basically"of"about"$45,"do"you"have"a"plan"for"
that"money?""
VANESSA"BROWN:""No,"not"yet."
TYRON"ALI:"Do"you"know"how"to"double"that"money?"Do"you"know"what"to"do"with"it?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""No."No."Because"I"didnt"want"to"make"a"plan"until"I"knew"it"was"here."
TYRON"ALI:"Okay."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Because"you"start"promising"people"stuff"and"then"you"cant"deliver"
TYRON"ALI:"No."
VANESSA"BROWN:""If"it"comes"around"(?)"theyd"probably"kill"you."
TYRON"ALI:"I"understand."
VANESSA"BROWN:""So"I"didnt"promise"anybody"anything."
TYRON"ALI:"So"nobody"knows."
VANESSA"BROWN:""No."
TYRON"ALI:"Thats"good."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Just"us."
TYRON"ALI:"Okay."
VANESSA"BROWN:""And"Gerald"and"Lee,"thats"it."Ive"told"no"one."
TYRON"ALI:"Keep"it"that"way."You"ready"to"go?"
6"
"

T""57""March"1st,"2011"
VANESSA"BROWN:""You"told"me"to"keep"something"under"the"lid,"it"doesnt"move."
TYRON"ALI:"No,"only"until"tomorrow."Give"me"until"tomorrow"or"tonight"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Im"not"gonna"tell"anybody"
TYRON"ALI:"Just"leave"it"
VANESSA"BROWN:".."until"we"know"who"its"going"to"go."
TYRON"ALI:"Yes."
VANESSA"BROWN:""And"then"we"call"them"up"and"we"say,"Hey!"Guess"what?"(Inaudible)"
TYRON"ALI:"Actually,"the"best"thing"to"do"is"uh,"wait"until"they"need"something."You"know?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""MmShmm."
TYRON"ALI:"My"guys"outside"but"do"you"mind,"oh"do"you"want"to"drive?"To"Gilligan"Island"(Laughs),"to"
Gilligans."I"cant"even"say"it."
VANESSA"BROWN:""(Laughs)"Im"taking"you"so"low,"you"cant"even"handle"it."You"(Inaudible)"(Laughing)."
TYRON"ALI:"No.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""Im"taking"you"slumming"(Laughs)."
TYRON"ALI:"Are"you"teasing"me?"(Laughs)."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Im"taking"you"slumming"(Laughing)."Hes"like,"I"cant"even"say"anything,"Gilligans"
Island"(Laughing)"
TYRON"ALI:"Thats"all"I"keep"thinking"about."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Next"youre"going"to"say,"Ahoy"matey!"(Laughing)"
TYRON"ALI:"Thats"all"I"keep"thinking"about"is"Gilligans"Island."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Oh,"youre"so.(sigh)"
SS32:04SS"
TYRON"ALI:"The"thing"about"it"is"normally"if"Dwight"sponsors"a"grant,"he"takes"a"portion"of"it,"usually."
VANESSA"BROWN:""This"is"so"low."
TYRON"ALI:"It"wouldnt"even"matter."Actually"it"does"matter."Why"do"you"think"he"let"you"just"ride?"
Because"of"the"other"grant?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Oh"why"I"didnt"get"any"other"ones?"
7"
"

T""57""March"1st,"2011"
TYRON"ALI:"MmShmm"
VANESSA"BROWN:""But"Kenyatta"didnt"either"and"he"didnt"even"get"what"I"got.""
TYRON"ALI:"He"got"even"less."
VANESSA"BROWN:""No"he"got"$50,"we"both"got"$50"and"he"took"it"out"because"he"didnt"like"Kenyatta."
He"said"(Inaudible)"because"um"when"we"were"running"as"freshmen,"I"went"up"to"him"and"I"said,"I"need"
$10,000"and"he"said,"What?"I"dont"even"know"you!"And"I"said,"Okay,"then"I"need"$5."He"started"
laughing."He"said,"I"see"youre"joking"with"me."So"anyway,"so"he"got"up"on"this,"I"was"up"on"the"stomp"
speaking"and"he"came"to"the"event"and"Kenyatta"was"there,"and"he"said,"Kenyatta,"you"lucky"she"know"
how"to"ask"because"she"getting"$10"and"you"getting"$10,000"too."
TYRON"ALI:"Sure"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Then"when"(Inaudible)"the"same"thing"happen"(Inaudible)"but"I"cant"give"her"and"not"
give"you"any."
TYRON"ALI:"That"says"a"lot."Because"someone"told"me"the"other"day,"we"were"actually"looking"at"ballot"
positions"for"two"folks"that"were"working"with."And"she"said"to"me,"she"goes,"You"know,"if"it"werent"
for"Kenyatta,"Vanessa"wouldnt"even"be"here."I"said,"Really,"how"do"you"figure"that?"And"shes"like,"
He,"I"promise"you,"hes"the"one"who"told"to"look"at"her"ballots.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""They"all"think"they"know."They"dont"know."
TYRON"ALI:"(Laughs)"
VANESSA"BROWN:""This"place"is"so"incestuous."
TYRON"ALI:"It"is,"it"absolutely"is."Absolutely"is.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""He"didnt"even"know"I"was"running."I"didnt"even"tell"anybody"I"was"filing"my"
petitions."How"would"I"even"read"the"ballot?"What"do"you"mean"about"my"ballot?"Im"thinking"petitions.""
TYRON"ALI:"It"is"your"petitions."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Yeah,"no."
TYRON"ALI:"Not"yours."Tommys."
VANESSA"BROWN:""No."Yeah."No."Nobody"even"knew.""They"didnt"even"know"what"I"was"doing."Only"
people"S"I"keep"stuff"so"closeS"the"only"people"knew"was"me"and"my"dad."
TYRON"ALI:"People"are"always"ah,"you"know,"people"will"always"think"they,"or"say"things"they"believe,"ya"
know?"
SS34:54"
8"
"

T""57""March"1st,"2011"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Wheres"your"guy?"
TYRON"ALI:"My"who?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""You"said"your"guy"is"where?"
TYRON"ALI:"Oh"heshe"mightve"left"already."
VANESSA"BROWN:""So"youre"okay?"Youre"fine"to"leave?"You"dont"have"to"
TYRON"ALI:"Yeah,"yeah,"yeah."Were"fine"to"leave"
VANESSA"BROWN:""SScheck"with"anybody?"Im"right"here."
TYRON"ALI:"This"is"you"here?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Yeah."
TYRON"ALI:"Oh."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Now"you"got"to"remember"Im"on"the"road"and"I"live"out"of"this"car."
TYRON"ALI:"(Laughs)."Its"okay."It"is"okay."
VANESSA"BROWN:""(Inaudible)"
TYRON"ALI:"Its"so"interesting,"being"up"here,"how"it"is"so"different"from"every"other"place"that"Ive"been.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""(Laughs)"This"is"a"strange"placeHarrisburg."Buckle"up"for"safety!"(?)"
TYRON"ALI:"Oh"my"God."(Laughs)."Are"you"really"like"that?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Can"you"get"it"with"all"my"stuff"in"the"way?"
TYRON"ALI:"I"got"it."No"its"alright."
VANESSA"BROWN:""I"have"one,"you"know"what."You"might"not"be"able"to"get"it"because"some"days"it"
clicks"and"some"days"it"doesnt."
TYRON"ALI:"It"doesnt"work.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""Dont"worry"about"it."Yeah."I"forgot"about"that."That"reminds"me,"maybe"tomorrow"
Ill"call"them"and"have"them"come"get"it"and"fix"it."
TYRON"ALI:"People"are"beginning"to"talk,"theyre"trying"to"figure"out"where"is"Mr."Evans"this"session.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""He"was"there"today."He"was"up,"I"dont"know"why."He"mustve"had"a"deal."(Driving)"
Oh"Im"sorry."I"missed"that"they"were"letting"me"go."He"mustve"had"some"deal"to"make"today"because"
he"was"up"here"and"he"came"up"on"the"House"floor"for"a"hot"second."
9"
"

T""57""March"1st,"2011"
TYRON"ALI:"Ill"tell"you"something,"you"gave,"you"did"him"a"huge"favor"and"its"unfortunate"that"you"cant"
leverage"it"because"its"too"late."
VANESSA"BROWN:""So"what"was"the"favor?"
TYRON"ALI:"Helping"him"get"that"check"to"the"bird"sanctuary"folks."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Oh"yeah."Yea."Thatll"work"out"better"for"him"than"it"ever"will"for"me"probably."Well,"
no"cause"Im"going"to"get"back"in"there"and"work"it"and"figure"it"out."
TYRON"ALI:"Absolutely"because"the"check"did"come"from"you."
VANESSA"BROWN:""MmShmm"
TYRON"ALI:"You"know"what"I"mean?"Leveraging"those"relationships"is"a"key"part"
VANESSA"BROWN:""And"the"spring"is"time"for"me"to"call"them"because"were"supposed"to"plan"the"check"
presentation,"because"they"got"the"check,"they"got"the"award"letter"in"December."It"was"between"
Thanksgiving"and"December"and"they"wanted"to"do"it"then"and"I"said,"No."This"is"bad"timing."So"Im"
going"to"stand"here"and"give"you"over"two"million"dollars"while"the"rest"of"this"district"is"hungry?"I"dont"
think"so."I"said,"Well"wait"until"the"spring"after"the"holidays."And"then"we"can"do"this."People"are"out"
of"work"and"they"dont"have"a"turkey"for"Thanksgiving"or"toys"for"Christmas."Bad"timing."So,"Im"glad"
you"mentioned"that."Ill"tell"Takiesha"to"get"in"touch"and"Rob"Stewart"to"get"in"touch"with"those"folks.""
TYRON"ALI:"The"thing"about"it"
VANESSA"BROWN:""If"this"gets"too"warm"let"me"know."Cause"I"am"anemic."I"can"never"have"enough"heat."
TYRON"ALI:"Im"from"Trinidad."Its"okay.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""Alright."
TYRON"ALI:"The"thing"about"it"is"that"when"you,"when"you"try"to"hold"those"discussion"with"folks"and"try"
to"be"an"active"participant"in"a"relationship"such"as"that,"where"youre"providing"them"with"resources"
and"you"want"them"to"also"be"participating"as"a"community"partner,"its"very"difficult"to"have"those"
conversations"after"the"moneys"gone."You"know?"Its"very"difficult."You"have"to"hold"them"accountable"
while"you"have"them"there."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Right."While"you"have"their"attention."
TYRON"ALI:"And"
VANESSA"BROWN:""They"sure"were"jumping"in"front"of"my"face"like"popcorn"trying"to"get"that"money"
and"now"that"theyve"got"it,"Ive"heard"nothing"but"crickets"from"them."I"cant"even"get"a"blueprint,"a"
plan,"nothing."
TYRON"ALI:"The"interesting"thing"is"that"they"will"all"be"like"that.""
10"
"

T""57""March"1st,"2011"
VANESSA"BROWN:""MmShmm."
TYRON"ALI:"Unless"youve"got"enough"support"or"some"relationships"that"will"help"people"understand,"
heySSS"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Shes"not"playing."
TYRON"ALI:"Yea."Dont"uh,"you"know?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Well"let"me"tell"you"something."The"meeting"yesterday"with"Brian"Preston"went"
extremely"well,"for"one"thing"and"one"thing"only."We"overlooked"our"most"obvious."So"were"worried"
about"minority"inclusion."He"looks"at"us"and"says,"Call"the"funder."Whos"the"bank?"I"said,"PNC."He"
says,"Thats"Carol"Lawrence."I"said,"I"know"Carol!"He"says,"Well"call"her!"Tell"her"to"hold"the"money."
Until"they"prove"they"have"minority"inclusion."And"shes"the"person"that"will"want"to"see"the"numbers."
TYRON"ALI:"Thats"right."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Let"her"know."She"probably"doesnt"even"know."Shes"got"so"many"problems,"she"
could"care"less."Make"her"care."
TYRON"ALI:"When"I"was"dealing"with"the"West"Philadelphia"Financial"Institute,"Ive"known"Carol"for"
many,"many"years."She"and"Phil"Happener,"the"other"Vice"President"from"the"Center"City"branchS"that"
was"our"guy."But"with,"with"Brian,"Brian"has"enough"problems"right"now."
VANESSA"BROWN:""He"said"that"they"want"all"the"money"back."He"told"me"about"that."
TYRON"ALI:"Right."Remember"what"I"told"you?""
VANESSA"BROWN:""MmShmm."
TYRON"ALI:"I"told"you"that"theyd"want"the"money"back."
VANESSA"BROWN:""And"I"didnt"ask"about"it."He"came"right"out."He"was"very"forthright"about"that."Uh"he"
said"that"he"thinks"he"can"salvage"things."He"was"on,"HUD"called"he"was"in"my"office."I"said,"Would"you"
like"me"to"step"out?"He"said,"No."He"was"like,"I"have"nothing"to"hide."And"he"talked"to"HUD"and"uh"
theyre"drafting,"reScrafting,"drafting"something"to"try"to"save"the"day."
TYRON"ALI:"I"wonder"if"hes"going"to"retain"his"job."
VANESSA"BROWN:""He"seems"pretty"confident"that"itll"all"work"out,"but"you"never"know"about"this"
TYRON"ALI:"They"always"are."They"always"are."Until"somebody"gets"a"phone"call"at"2:00"in"the"morning"
and"suddenly"theres"just"a"shift"in"policy."And"here"comes"the"unemployment"person."
VANESSA"BROWN:""MmShmm."
TYRON"ALI:"Hey,"guess"what?"
11"
"

T""57""March"1st,"2011"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Get"the"HR"call."
TYRON"ALI:"Yep."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Uh,"Brian"could"you"please"come"down"to"my"office?"
TYRON"ALI:"Actually,"nowadays,"you"just"get"a"text.""
(Laughing)"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Thats"pretty"messed"up."Now"Ive"heard"of"the"guys"breaking"up"with"the"girls"that"
way."
TYRON"ALI:"Yeah,"yeah."In"New"York,"its"like"the"newest"thing."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Breaking"up"by"text?"Wow."
TYRON"ALI:"Breaking"up"by"text."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Thats"terrible.""
TYRON"ALI:"This"afternoon"someone"said"to"me"that"ah,"because"were"kind"of"looking"at"some"other"
issues,"weve"got"the"school"voucher"thing"now"thats"kind"of"playing"itself"out."And"we"were"talking"
about"the"associate,"the"associate"members"for"the"Marcellus"Shale"coalition."And"one"of"your"dear"
colleagues"says,"Shes"so"nice,"if"she"would"just"learn"how"to"be"tough!"
"
(Laughing)"(Sigh)7
TYRON"ALI:"But"you"know"what,"at"the"end"of"the"day"
VANESSA"BROWN:""They"always"have"a"but"somewhere,"always."
TYRON"ALI:"Yes,"yes,"yes."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Everybodys"got"big"buts."
TYRON"ALI:"The"toughest"part"about"all"of"this"is"to"make"sure"that"you"get"what"you"need."
VANESSA"BROWN:""MmShmm."
TYRON"ALI:"Because"theres"a"difference"between"being"able"to"survive"and"being"selfish.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""Well"heres"the"deal."They"got"all"these"buts,"but"in"all"of"the"buts,"none"of"them"
got"4.5"million"dollars"in"the"last"term"to"their"district."None"of"them"can"get"up"and"say"that."I"have"
brought"home"four"and"a"half"million"dollars."Ill"take"the"big"but."(Laughs)."
TYRON"ALI:"I"see"Mr."
12"
"

T""57""March"1st,"2011"
VANESSA"BROWN:""And"some"of"them"still"dont"even"know"I"have"that"money."
TYRON"ALI:"The"odd"thing"about"it"is"that"in"your"district,"theres"so"much"room"for"development."And"
VANESSA"BROWN:""People"just"dumped"a"whole"lot"of"money"in"it."
TYRON"ALI:"Trying"to"find"the,"trying"to"find"the"right"kind"of"economic"partner"is"a"little"bit"of"a"search."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Well"heres"a"good"thing""on"Lancaster"Avenue,"they"just"opened"up"a"Rainbow"
shop,"which"is"a"national"brand"market."I"cant"believe"it."Somebody"just"called"the"other"day"and"said,"
Rainbow"just"opened"on"Lancaster"Avenue!"Im"like,"you"gotta"be"kidding"me."I"didnt"think"wed"ever"
get"them"back."We"used"to"have"Rainbow,"Sharmen"Shop,"Payless,"Rite"Aid"and"then"something"
happened"and"they"all"closed"up"in"like"a"matter"of"two"years"and"left."Killed"the"Avenue."And"now"it"
looks"like"were"coming"back"up."But"I"think"it"has"a"lot"to"do"with"Peoples"Emergency"Center."And"this"is"
in"Michelle"Brownlees"part"of"my"Castor"AvenueS"developed"a"property"that"is"right"in"the"middle,"right"
in"the"heart"of"the"business"corridor"that"is"absolutely"fabulous"real"estate."Its"very"upscale."It"looks"
nothing"like"the"rest"of"the"avenue."And"that"may"be"the"one"cap"piece"thats"catalyzing"all"of"this"to"
happen,"this"new"development"and"the"interest."And"to"our"neighborhood."
TYRON"ALI:"Did"anybody"bother"to"go"and"talk"to"the"site"manager"there,"as"to"why"they"built"there?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""I"will"when"I"get"back"to"Philadelphia"because"I"just"got"the"call"since"Ive"been"up"
here."Said"that"theyre"opening"up."But"I"sure"would"like"to"find"out"what"was"the"main"attraction,"what"
attracted"them"to"that."I"did"talk"to"Walgreens"and"Walgreens"may"be"interested"if"we"can"get"enough"
square"footage"for"them.""
TYRON"ALI:"And"the"right"tax"credits."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Yeah."And"I"believe"that"Lancaster"Avenue"was"expanded"into"the"KOZ,"the"Keystone"
Opportunity"Zone."
TYRON"ALI:"Those"Keystone"Opportunity"Zones,"dont"they"come"with"a"10Syear"tax"abatement?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""MmShmm"
TYRON"ALI:"I"thought"it"was"a"good"incentive"but"I"never"was"certain"as"to"whether"that"was"enough."
VANESSA"BROWN:""For"smaller"projects,"its"attractive."But"sometimes"they"still"dont"have"the"capacity"
to"pull"it"all"together."I"know"that"Alpha"Office"Supply,"before"Jim"Brown,"James"Brown,"passed"away,"
was"looking"to"develop"on"Parkside"because"they"came"to"me,"they"thought"it"was"my"district."But"it"was"
Kathy"Mandarinos."And"they"said,"We"want"to"take"advantage"of"the"Keystone"Opportunity,"Dwight"
sent"us"to"talk"to"you"and"were"building."And"Im"like,"Thats"not"my"district."(Laughs)"
TYRON"ALI:"Isnt"Lee"Tolberts"office,"the"West"Philadelphia"Coalition"for"Neighborhoods"and"Business,"
isnt"that"on"Parkside"Avenue?"

13"
"

T""57""March"1st,"2011"
VANESSA"BROWN:""It"is."Its"in"the"um,"whats"the"name"of"that"building?"Millet"Parker"owns"this"whole"
giant"commercial"complex."And"he"has"the"methadone"clinic"there,"hes"making"a"killing."Hes"got"
Discovery"Charter"paying"a"ton"in"real"estate."And"then"hes"got"the"earn"centers"there."Hes"got"a"lot"of"
good,"stable"businesses"that"are"paying"him.""
TYRON"ALI:"A"methadone"clinic"is"always"good"business."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Yeah."I"mean"we"need"to"hold"them"accountable."Because"theyre"getting"away"with"
murder."Theyre"making"millions"and"not"doing"anything."No"community"reinvestment"dollars,"they"
dont"even"clean"up"the"trash"from"their"clients"out"front."We"need"to"get"in"there"and"talk"to"them."
Especially"if"I"get"redistricted"up"to"include"them.""
TYRON"ALI:"Your"um,"your"colleague"is"back"on"judiciary"as"of"yesterday"afternoon."(Laughs)"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Ron"is"something"else."
TYRON"ALI:"He"also"is"probably"going"to"have"a"need"in"the"event"that"they,"the"sex"offender"bill"that"is"
being"talked"about"now"by"Mr."Ahkmed."It,"I"just"thought"it"would"be"such"a"unique"thing,"now"that"I"
know"that"you"have"a"methadone"clinic"in"your"neighborhood"and"then"another"program"that"kind"of"
speaks"to"that"issue"with"sex"offendersS"now"that"would"make"sense."And"with"the"two"of"you"
sponsoring"something"like"that"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Right."
TYRON"ALI:"its"easy"to"get"House"support"for"something"of"that"nature."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Well"Ron"has"risen"in"his,"I"think"his"authority,"and"respect"of"the"leadership"because"
this"whole"incident"with"the"man"that"they"wanted"to"let"go,"which"they"did"not,"um"(Laughs),"I"had"
made"a"comment,"cause"they"said"that"the"youngSthis"guys"going"through"a"custody"thing,"a"domestic"
issue."The"young"lady"sent"information"to"the"press"that"he"was"an"exSoffender"working"for"the"House"of"
Representatives."And"a"reported"called"and"said,"What"is"your"policy"on"hiring"exSoffenders?"So"they"
said,"No"comment."We"dont"discuss"employees"personal"issues."And"hung"up"the"phone."So"I"said,"
You"shouldve"transferred"the"call"to"Ron"Waters."(Laughs)"And"let"him"talk"about"our"position"on"exS
offenders."He"wouldve"given"them"an"earful."You"shouldve"transferred"that"call"to"Ron!"And"then"she"
looked"at"me"and"she"said,"Uh,"you"all"havent"talked"to"Ron"about"this"staff"issue"have"you?"They"
dont"want"him"involved"because"he"would"fight"for"the"young"man."I"said,"No,"it"hasnt"gotten"to"that"
level."I"think"that"what"you"have"put"on"the"table"is"satisfactory"and"I"think"well"live"with"it."They"
suspended"him"for"four"days"instead"of"firing"him"for"what"he"did"wrong."I"said,"I"dont"think"anybodys"
going"to"complain"about"the"four"day"suspension."Hell"take"it"and"come"back"and"be"happy"that"he"still"
has"a"job."So,"no,"Rons"not"on"it."She"said,"Oh"thank"you."Im"like,"when"the"hell"did"he,"Rons"up"that"
that"they"scared"of"him?"
TYRON"ALI:"Its"a"long"story"but"Rons"made"a"new"friend."

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T""57""March"1st,"2011"
VANESSA"BROWN:""So"I"see."So"I"see."So"that"was"yesterday"and"I"was"like,"Oh,"Ron"has"trump"cards."He"
just"got"reloaded."
TYRON"ALI:"(Whispering)."Thats"why"I"told"you,"if"you"need"me"to"make"that"phone"call"at"someit"will"
be"fairly"easy"to"do."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Well,"when"we"really"have"something"we"need"to"trump"it."Right"now,"theres"small"
potatoes."Theres"nothing"that"big."Ugh,"Ron"wanted"to"go"to"dinner."I"forgot"to"ask"you"if"youd"mind"if"
he"went."
TYRON"ALI:"I"wouldnt"mind."Call"him."
VANESSA"BROWN:""He"has"a"car,"he"could"meet"us"out"here."Well,"when"I"get"into"the"parking"lot."(?)"is"
telling"her"thats"where"we"are."
TYRON"ALI:"Oh,"this"is"it?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""MmShmm"
TYRON"ALI:"Oh"I"see."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Its"not"an"island!"
(Laughing)"
SS51:23"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Alright,"let"me"call"Ron,"see"what"hes"doing."I"thought"he"was"going"back."He"says,"
No,"Im"staying."I"loves"per"diems!"(Laughs)"He"taught"me"to"have"a"dare"respect"for"them"too.""(On7the7
phone)"Hey,"are"you"still"in"your"um,"I"want"to"say"apartment."Are"you"still"in"your"room?"(Laughs)"Well,"I"
was"calling"you"about"dinner."Me"and"Ty"just"stopped"up"on"Johnstown"Road"to"Gilligans."You"want"to"
come"up"here"and"meet"us?"Gilligans"on"Johnstown"Road,"right"past"ColonialIm"thinking"right"before"
or"uh"Colonial"Park,"where"the"mall"is."Yeah."Yeah,"its"called"Gilligans."Yeah."Its"only"five"minutes"away"
from"you."Its"not"that"far."Im"near,"Im"where"Taco"Bell"and"Verizon"if"youre"coming"up."Yep."You"turn."
Yep,"its"on"your"right,"its"on"your"leftShand"side"and"Verizon"is"on"your"left."Youll"see"a"Taco"Bell"and"a"
Verizon."Its"before"you"get"to"the"mall"and"the"movie"theater."Okay."(To7TA)"Hes"coming."Its"like"a"
sports"bar"and"a"restaurant."They"got"a"pool"table."They"got"TVs"everywhere.""
SS54:22"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Can"you"handle"this?"
TYRON"ALI:"I"can"handle"it,"sure,"sure."
UM:"Hi."How"are"you?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Hi"(Inaudible)""
15"
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T""57""March"1st,"2011"
TYRON"ALI:"Do"you"have"a"card?"Cause"you"need"this"address,"right?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""I"have"another"person"thats"coming.""
UM:"Why"dont"you"give"that"to"her?"
TYRON"ALI:"Can"we"grab"a"booth?""
UM:"Out"here"in"the"round"or"back"in"the"dining"room?"
TYRON"ALI:"Back"in"the"dining"room"is"okay."
UNIDENTIFIED"FEMALE:""Hi"
TYRON"ALI:"Hi,"how"are"you?"
UM:"There"you"go,"enjoy."
TYRON"ALI:"Thank"you."
UM:"Youre"welcome."
VANESSA"BROWN:""(On7the7phone)"No"were"still"in"Harrisburg."North."And"its"Houck."HSOSUwhat"is"it?"
HSOSUSCSKSS."Okay?"Ill"see"you"when"you"get"here."Yeah,"and"youll"know"it"when"you"see"the"Verizon"up"
on"your"left"hand"side."You"turn"at"that"light."Okay,"bye."Hell"be"here."Now"that"he"knows"what"the"heck"
hes"doing."
(Laughing)"
TYRON"ALI:"You"know"its"kind"of"interesting"because,"Ive"been"so"busy"um"cause"Ive"
WAITRESS:""Hello,"how"are"you"guys"doing"today?""
TYRON"ALI:"Good."
WAITRESS:""My"names"Jamie,"Ill"be"taking"care"of"ya."Can"I"get"you"something"to"drink?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""What"would"you"like?""
TYRON"ALI:"What"would"you"like?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Well"you"know,"me."I"just"want"some"hot"water"with"some"lemon"wedges."
WAITRESS:""Okay."
TYRON"ALI:"Let"me"have"a"Rum"and"Coke?"
WAITRESS:""Okay."

16"
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T""57""March"1st,"2011"
TYRON"ALI:"Thanks."No,"but"its"kind"of"interesting"because"weve"got"so"many"things"going"on"and"then"
there"are"those"folks"from"Philadelphia"who"are"the"older"lobbyists"that"are"like,"Suddenly"hes"got"all"
this"clout!"He"knows"everybody."They"fail"to"realize"like,"I"was"Director"of"Governmental"affairs"for"two"
law"firms"and"Executive"Vice"President"for"one."So"its"like,"I"just"never"really"needed"to"use"what"I"have,"
you"know?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""MmShmm."
TYRON"ALI:"Now"theres"so"much"opportunity"its"like"
VANESSA"BROWN:""(Inaudible)"
TYRON"ALI:"Well,"its"kind"of"like"where"do"you"not"jump?"Because"on"the"Shale"issue,"thats"one"thing."
The"privatization"of"the"liquor"stores"thats"the"other.""The"DISK"issue"from"the"utility"companies."Then"
weve"got"a"whole"bunch"of"stuff"going"on"on"the"PUC"side.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""DISK"issue?"Like"satellite"disk?"
TYRON"ALI:"UnhSunh."DISK"actually"is,"its"a,"its"not"actually"an"acronym"because"its"incorrect,"but"it"is"
the"difference"between"a"taxSthe"label"of"a"taxS"and"the"label"surcharge"on"the"Shale"project."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Okay."
TYRON"ALI:"Because"some"people,"you"know,"the"promise"of"the"leadership"and"the"governors"is,"you"
know,"you"will"not"tax"it."So"there"could"be"a"surcharge."That"surcharge"is"so"critical"because"it"would"
help"with"the"implementation"of"redundancy"systems."If"you"had"redundancy"systems"or"actually"newer"
systems,"that"gas"explosion"in"Allentown"probably"would"not"have"happened."You"know,"so"its"um,"its"
fairly"interesting"work"if"you"can"get"it."I"see"um,"my"dear"from"Mr."Wojack"and"hes"like,"he"saw"me"the"
other"day"and"hes"like,"one"of"his"guys"John"Hawkins"is"like,"Hey!"What"are"you"doing"here"Tyron?"Im"
said,"You"know"what?"I"could"ask"you"the"same"thing."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Good"for"you."
TYRON"ALI:"And,"the"um,"that"thing"that"I"was"talking"to"you"about"with"Rosita,"it"doesnt"have"to"be"her."
Heres"what"happened"yesterday."Horsey"jammed"her"a"little"bit"and"it"wasnt"really"her"fault"because"
theres"some"people"that"hes"dealing"with"who"happened"to"know"her."And"she"felt"obligated"because"
she"did"not"want"to"create"a"problem"so"I"understood"that."
WAITRESS:""And"are"you"guys"waiting"for"some"more"before"you"order?""
VANESSA"BROWN:""Im"going"to"order"a"cheesesteak."
TYRON"ALI:"Sure."
WAITRESS:""Okay."So"just"put"that"in"a"while?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Yes,"thank"you."
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T""57""March"1st,"2011"
WAITRESS:""Youre"welcome."
TYRON"ALI:"So"she"felt"obligated,"and"you"know,"I"said,"Its"okay."I"just"thought"
VANESSA"BROWN:""
"
TYRON"ALI:"Well,"you"know"I"saw"him"and"it"was,"awhile"back.""Are"you"okay?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""(Laughs)"
TYRON"ALI:"I"saw"him"a"while"back"and"hes"like,"You"know,"we"should"talk."Not"unless"youre"paying"
me"will"we"talk.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""Thats"what"Mike"said?"
TYRON"ALI:"Thats"what"I"told"him."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Oh."
TYRON"ALI:"You"know?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Cause"thats"how"he"talks"to"everybody"so,"he"got"his"own"medicine"there."
TYRON"ALI:"These"guys,"you"know"they"try"very"hard"to"join"this"little"club,"but"unfortunately,"they"dont"
have"the"resources"to"join"this"club."So,"it"is"what"it"is."But,"if"you"look"at,"in"your"neighborhood,"see"I"
want"to"say"something"to"you"but"I"want"to"say"it"in"a"manner"that"will"help"you"to"understand"what"the"
reasons"are"for"people"like"us."This"is"your,"third?"This"will"be"the"beginning"of"your"third"term,"right?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Second."
TYRON"ALI:"Second?"Youre"not"yet"out"of"the"woods"in"terms"of"having"people"say,"Were"not"going"to"
run"a"candidate"against"Vanessa."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Right."Which"I"understand."
TYRON"ALI:"The"reason"that"Im"saying"that"to"you"is"this:"I"had"a"meeting"two"weeks"ago,"and"
sometimes"its"difficult"for"me"to"convey"to"you,"not"just"how"much"I"understand"but"how"much"I"know,"
because"I"dont"think"you"pick"up"on"the"small"things"I"may"say"to"you."Like,"you"know,"I"might"just"
mention"I"saw"someone"today."Theres"a"reason"I"might"say"I"saw"someone"today"because"we"probably"
had"a"conversation,"and"that"conversation"probably"had"something"to"do"with"you."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Oh."
TYRON"ALI:"If"we"didnt,"I"probably"wouldnt"mention"it."Because"I"try"to"be"fairly"careful"about"what"I"
say,"who"I"say"it"in"front"of"and"in"general,"what"my"conversations"are"like."When"I"told"the"other"day"
that"I"saw"Sharif"
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T""57""March"1st,"2011"
VANESSA"BROWN:""MmShmm."
TYRON"ALI:"There"was"a"reason"that"I"told"you"that."
VANESSA"BROWN:""He"was"asking"for"your"support?"
TYRON"ALI:"Right."Always."Always."And"we"have,"you"know,"full"disclosure,"we"have"always"supported"
him."But"I"feel"like"you"can"be"the"nonSprofit,"charitable"Rep"in"your"part"of"the"world."Why"do"I"say"that?"
Because"people"can"identify"with"your"story"and"so"theres"no"rule"or"regulation"that"says"you"cant"be"
involved"with"a"nonSprofit"group."And"so"you"shouldnt"just"have"one,"or"two,"or"three."One"for"domestic"
violence,"one"for"addiction"and"dependency,"one"for"victims"of"violent"crimes."One"for"
VANESSA"BROWN:""MmShmm"(Inaudible)"
TYRON"ALI:"Sure,"sure."You"know?"And"what"that"allows"you"to"docan"I"just"be"frank"with"you?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Sure."
TYRON"ALI:"Because"I"feel"like"
VANESSA"BROWN:""At"this"point."
TYRON"ALI:"The"thing"is"I"feel"like"youre"here,"but"youve"never"actually"been"spoken"to"by"a"lobbyist"
that"understands"the"protocol"and"the"system"still."
VANESSA"BROWN:""No,"the"only"person"would"be"Morgan"Plant,"who"has"been"very"open"and"forthright"
with"me"but"thats"it."
TYRON"ALI:"I"dont"know"who"that"is.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""Stout"white"woman."She"deals"with"the"nurses"
TYRON"ALI:"Oh"from"the"union?""
VANESSA"BROWN:""She"works"with"the"um"
TYRON"ALI:"Shes"not"the"AFSCME"right?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""No."
TYRON"ALI:"No?"Okay."
VANESSA"BROWN:""She"deals"with"the"morticians,"the"cemeteries,"she"has"all"of"their"and"she"gives"me"
small"donations."
TYRON"ALI:"The"um,"when"we"talked"about"looking"at"the"casinos,"even"though"theyre"not"in"your"
backyard,"per"se,"but"theyre,"but"theyre"close"to,"theyre"in"close"proximity,"they"certainly"dont"want"
that"publicity."Some"of"their"patrons"are"going"to"come"from"your"neighborhood."Getting"them"as"an"
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T""57""March"1st,"2011"
economic"partner,"lets"say"they"put"up"the"seed"money"for"$5,000,"we"do"a"study"thats"sponsored"by"
Temples"SPDC,"theres"that"pot"of"money,"$1.2"million"that"we"can"actually"look"at"for"the"allocation"of"
resources"to"domestic"violence"victims."Now"youve"got"the"casinos"being"held"accountable."The"
interesting"thing"is:"how"do"you"get"them"to"move"on"that"first"$5,000?"Thats"where"your"relationships"
come"in."Someone"that"can"talk"to"them"in"a"way"that"you"cant"or"in"a"way"that"youre"not"allowed"to.""
You"know,"some"people"have"that"relationship."I"remember"you"know,"years"ago"one"senator"called"me"
up"and"he"said,"Hey"Ty,"you"know"we"need"this"or"this"is"what"were"planning"on"doing."And"ultimately,"
we"didnt"even"really"need"to"talk,"we"just"understood"each"other"
VANESSA"BROWN:""That"sounds"like"Boomer"
TYRON"ALI:"You"know,"it"was"just,"its"just"one"of"those"things,"and"its"just"one"of"those"things"where"you"
dont"even"have"to"talk"about"it,"with"another"Senator.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""Im"sad"I"didnt"get"to"meet"him."
TYRON"ALI:"Hes"a"fantastic"guy."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Thats"what"I"hear."
TYRON"ALI:"He"really,"hes"really"bright."Hes"bright.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""Everybody"says,"just"wait"till"hes"out"and"back"on"the"streets,"youll"meet"him."
TYRON"ALI:"Thats"right"(Laughs)"Thats"right."Thats"right."But"the"thing"about"it"is"that,"you"know"when,"
I"told"you,"when"I"met"you"the"first"time"and"it"was"like,"Hey,"she"has"a"golden"heart"and"people"are"
taking"advantage"of"her."Shes"getting"all"of"her"stuff"mixed"up."And"there"was"the"issue"with"the"filing"
and"so"um"
VANESSA"BROWN:""(Inaudible)"
TYRON"ALI:"The"fines,"right."And"it"was"like,"okay"shes"going"through"this"now,"but"who"can"we"get"thats"
from"Philadelphia"that"I"consider"to"be"like"a"son"to"me,"who"can"I"get"to"kind"of"help"here."And"then"the"
other"person"said,"Oh"its"Ty,"okay."You"know,"and"it"was"like,"Its"Tyron."Okay"Im"the"only"person"
from"Philadelphia"doing"what"Im"doing."Theres"nobody"else."Because"people"dont"trust"anybody."You"
know?"Last"night"we"went"out,"and"I"forget"where"we"wentwe"went"to"McGraths,"and"then"we"went"
to"Stocks"on"2nd."And"the"one"Senator"said"to"me,"Look,"I"know"youve"got"the"slicked"back"hair"but"I"
trust"you."And"Im"like,"my"hair?"Okay."I"dont"try"to"be"anything"that"Im"not."You"know?"I"understand"
my"job"and"I"understand"how"to"do"it."And"beyond"that,"I"think"I"understand"the"personalities"because"
some"people,"theyre"like"processSdriven,"right?"They"understand"the"process."But"then"there"are"some"
people"who,"sort"of"understand"the"relationships."And"thats"where"I"would"like"to"see"you"go."For"you"to"
understand"the"process,"it"will"take"up"too"much"of"your"time."Itll"probably"bore"you"to"death."Thats"
what"Takeisha"is"there"for"and"whoever"else"is"there."But"the"relationships"are"the"ones"that"are"worth"it"
for"you"to"concentrate"on."You"know"any"good"lobbyist"really"functions"as"an"echo"of"what"their"clients"
are"looking"for,"but"theres"a"secondary"echo,"and"that"echo"comes"from"the"legislature."Because"you"
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T""57""March"1st,"2011"
cant"get"these"two"voices"to"speak"to"each"other"if"there"is"a"disconnect."So"a"lobbyist"is"really"the"
conduit"between"the"legislature"and"their"client,"whether"its"economic"or"charitableit"doesnt"matter,"
you"know?"And"it"also"helps,"like"with"your"situation"with"(???),"he"would"roll"you"under"the"bus"in"24"
seconds"flat"
VANESSA"BROWN:""MmShmm."
TYRON"ALI:"Because"one,"youre"a"woman"and"two,"he"feels"like"he"can"do"it.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""If"he"thought"it"was"a"game,"its"done."
TYRON"ALI:"But"he"sees,"if"he"sees"someone"there"that"he"hasnt"seen"on"that"side"before."And"just"by"
the"mere"fact"of"me"being"there,"it"would"sort"of"help"him"understand,"wait"a"second,"shes"got"some"
help"now."You"know"what"I"mean?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""I"think"thats"what"saved"me,"because"people"kept"looking"over"my"shoulder"seeing"
that"big"dude"and"saying,"Wow,"if"I"mess"with"her,"Im"messing"with"him."
TYRON"ALI:"Clearly."And"again,"you"know,"I"dont"make"those"calls"very"often"where"I"actually"need"help."
But"when"you"told"me"about"the"Brian?"situation"I"said,"You"know"what?"Im"just"going"to"give"her"a"
little"taste"of"how"we"can"outSmaneuver"not"just"the"people"but"the"system."Because"you"know"its"one"
of"those"things"you"get"trained"in"doing,"you"know?"Its"like"with"Brian"suggesting"minority"participation."
Heres"the"thing:"they"did"away"with"the"minority"contractors"issues"through"M"bank,"remember"they"
dissolved"the"minority"business"enterprises"council."So"theres"no"real,"theres"no"real"legislative"
requirement."
VANESSA"BROWN:""MmShmm."
TYRON"ALI:"So"for"him"to"even"suggest"something"like"that,"one"it"shows"that"hes"really"trying"to"resolve"
whatever"the"issue"might"be,"but"two,"it"kind"of"speaks"to"the"fact"that"hes"looking"out"for"his"people."
You"need"to"be"seen"as"someone"that"does"just"that."Thats"like"Ron."For"years,"I"mean"years,"he"and"I"
would"see"each"other"and"Id"turn"around"and"be"like,"Look"man!"Were"here!"And"hed"be"like,"I"
know."When"we"need"you"well"let"you"know."And"then,"situations"come"up,"and"hes"like,"Hey."You"
know,"are"you"guys"still,"you"know,"willing"to"help"here?"And"I"told"him,"I"said,"Look,"not"only"are"we"
willing"to"help"you,"were"willing"to"help"you"for"the"long"term."Because"in"the"House"of"Representative,"
the"Philadelphia"delegation,"a"few"of"you"are,"what"I""would"consider"to"be"new,"and"then"the"folks"that"
are"not"so"new"are"being"marginalized"because"theyre"being"put"on"committees"with"zero"impact."
Right?"So"how"do"you"get"the"new"ones"built"up,"how"do"you"get"the"older"folks"in"there"to"not"be"
marginalized?"By"not"introducing"their"ideas,"not"just"to"people"across"the"aisle,"but"to"folks"who"are"
willing"to"listen."If"you"have"two"or"three"projects"that"you"would"look"at"for"the"next"one"year,"what"
would"they"be?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Number"one"is"the"library."You"mean"community"development"projects?"
TYRON"ALI:"MmShmm."MmShmm"
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T""57""March"1st,"2011"
VANESSA"BROWN:""The"library."The"52nd"Street,"Philadelphia"Free"Library"already"gave"me"the"plan."Its"a"
four"million"dollar"project"to"renovate"that"abandoned"vacant"library"that"they"have"down"the"street"
from"my"office."They"want"to"make"it"a"media"library"with"no"books,"just"technology."They"want"to"bring"
the"kids"in,"train"them"on"every"aspect"of"computer"technology."
TYRON"ALI:"How"much"money,"whats"the"capital"cost?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Its"going"to"be"$2"million."
TYRON"ALI:"$2"million?"Can"you"set"up"a"nonSprofit"and"sponsor"maybe"a"$25,000"grant?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""And"Dwight"told"me"to"start"raising"the"money."
TYRON"ALI:"You"cant."
VANESSA"BROWN:""He"said,"he"said"I"need"to"do"it"as"a"foundation"and"start"going"to"folks"and"letting"
them"know"that"this"is"my"new"pet"project."
TYRON"ALI:"You"can"do"a"501c6."Set"it"up"as"a,"as"either"a"coalition"of"partners"and"vendors,"but"you"
need"the"initial"seed"money."If"you"sponsored"it"with,"is"that"his"district?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""They"have"$2"million."
TYRON"ALI:"Who"has"it?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""The"library."I"need"to"match"it.""
TYRON"ALI:"So"its"actually"a"$4"million"project."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Right."Its"a"$4"million"dollar"project"but"we"need"$2"million""
TYRON"ALI:"So,"they"can"create"a"P3"relationship."But"would"they"support,"would"they"support"that"kind"
of"a"relationship."See,"this"is"the"other"thing,"when"youre"looking"at"projects"in"excess"of"$100,000,"the"
requirements,"the"financial"audit"requirements,"are"vastly"different."So"in"setting"up"a"p3"relationship"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Now,"I"dont"know"what"P3"is."
TYRON"ALI:"Public"Private"Partnership."
SS1:13:14SS"
WAITRESS:""Can"I"get"you"guys"anything"else"right"now?"
TYRON"ALI:"Can"I"get"a"diet"coke?"
WAITRESS:""Is"Diet"Pepsi"ok?"

22"
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T""57""March"1st,"2011"
TYRON"ALI:"Yeah"thats"fine,"thanks."Um,"part"of"the"issue"there,"is"who"is"going"to"be"your"partner."You"
need"a"bank,"right?"You"also"need"a"research"facility."Thats"always"helpful."Like"a"University"for"example.""
Therese,"I"forget"her"last"name,"you"know"who"Im"talking"about"right?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""MmShmm."
TYRON"ALI:"She"and"my"dear"friend"from"Temples"SPDC,"because"he"got"me"my"first"job"with"a"venture"
capital"group"ever,"so"he"always"thinks"that"I"owe"him,"which"I"do"because"I"learned"so"much"in"a"year,"
not"just"financial"operations"but"really"how"to"invest"in"companies"and"make"them"do"some"very"
interesting"things."Partnering"with"those"folks"is"one"thing,"if"they"dont"behave,"a"lobbyist"is"a"tool"to"
make"people"behave."We"are"like"secondary"chiefs"of"staff."You"know"you"have"your"operational"chiefs"
of"staff,"and"then"you"have"your"folks"who"are"resource"chief"of"staff."I"mean"at"the"end"of"the"day"we"
understand"there"is"no"quid"pro"quo,"but"the"ability"for"you"to"get,"or"to"be"able"to"draw"people"to"listen"
to"what"you"have"to"say"and"for"them"to"have"the"resources,"those"are"virtually"impossible"things"to"get"
in"todays"economy."So"you"need"to"pick"your"partners"well."Im"going"to"tell"you"something."
(Whispering)"Tony"Payton."Problems,"big"time."You"know,"and"uh,"well"see."Because"theyve"already"
enlisted"my"help"to"look"at,"you"know,"who"has"the"potential."And"I"sat"him"down"because"I"dont"pull"
any"punches."
VANESSA"BROWN:""MmShmm."
TYRON"ALI:"I"sat"him"down"last"night"and"I"said,"Listen,"you"know"me,"youve"known"me"for"a"long"time."
You"know"the"reason"Im"sitting"you"down"is"because"I"have"something"important"to"say"to"you."This"is"
not"four"years"ago."We"dont"care"how"much"money"youve"brought"to"your"district."Be"advised."It"is"
what"it"is,"you"know?"And"the"reason"that"thats"happening"is"because"some"folks,"both"house"and"
senate"believe"that"Mr."Payton"is"instigating"for"their"removal,"their"involuntary"retirement.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""Hes"too"busy."He"needs"to"stay"in"his"own"lane.""
TYRON"ALI:"You"know,"um,"again,"Im"sharing"this"with"you"because"its"important,"you"know,"its"sort"of"
a"new"sort"of"friendship"and"so"to"understand"how"I"operate,"why"I"do"the"things"that"I"do."Because"I"
know"sometimes"its"going"to"look"like,"did"he"really"just"say"that?"Did"he"really"just"do"that?"Its"because"
were"trying"to"accomplish"a"task"that"is"not"a"small"thing."Not"a"small"thing,"you"know?"And"at"the"end"
of"the"day"
VANESSA"BROWN:"""I"think"Oliver"wants"Tony"Paytons"job."Hes"just"waiting"for"his"election."
TYRON"ALI:"Not"just"him,"its"an"entire"group."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Wow."Well"he"pissed"off"the"parking"authority,"I"know"that."
TYRON"ALI:"MmShmm."Its"in"my"bag"actually."
VANESSA"BROWN:""I"know"he"was"on"Dwights"team,"because"he"was"Dwights"golden"child,"his"guard."
TYRON"ALI:"Im"going"to"share"something"with"you."It"might"have"been"that"way"it"was"initially"
23"
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T""57""March"1st,"2011"
WAITRESS:""Is"your"appetizer"okay?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Yes."
WAITRESS:""Do"you"want"another"rum"and"coke?"
TYRON"ALI:"No,"Ive"got"this"thank"you."
WAITRESS:""And"are"you"guys"going"to"wait"until"the"other"people"get"here"to"order"your"dinners?"Is"that"
what"youre"doing?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Do"you"want"to"wait"for"Ron?"
TYRON"ALI:"Yeah!"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Okay."
WAITRESS:""Okay."
SS1:18:06SS"
VANESSA"BROWN:""I"think"she"wanted"us"to"order"right"away."It"must"not"be"her"night."
TYRON"ALI:"What"I"was"going"to"say"to"you"is"that,"because"hes"on"transportation"now,"he"has"new"
objectives."What"he"doesnt"realize"is"that"when"you"run"around,"word"gets"around."The"one,"one"of"
your"colleagues"said"to"me"the"other,"I"guess"it"was"Thursday,"shes"like,"You"know,"Ty,"they"all"come"
and"talk"to"me,"and"I"listen,"and"I"smile,"and"I"laugh."But"I"dont"believe"a"word"any"of"them"says."When"
you"say"it"to"me,"I"know"where"youre"getting"yours"from."Sure"its"true,"I"said."(Laughs)"And"I"am"very"
low"key"about"it."I"dont,"you"know,"look"at"where"we"are,"were"in"the"middle"of"nowhere,"for"example."
At"Gilligans"Island."
(Laughing)"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Youll"never"live"that"down"
TYRON"ALI:"No"I"will"not."I"like"it,"its"nice."Its"nice."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Its"clean,"its"quiet."Theres"nobody"in"here."
TYRON"ALI:"Yeah,"its"good"to"know"places"like"this."The"only"reason"Im"kind"of"harping"on"Mangia"Qui"is"
because"one"of"the"ladies"that"we"were"out"with"last"night,"she"was"like,"Oh"you"have"to"go"there!"And"
Im"like,"Okay,"okay."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Well"next"time"well"go"there."
TYRON"ALI:"Next"time"well"go"there."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Tonight"I"just"wanted"
24"
"

T""57""March"1st,"2011"
TYRON"ALI:"To"be"happy."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Maybe"I"was"just"selfish."Yeah,"not"have"to"keep"looking."
TYRON"ALI:"With"your"potato"skins."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Well"that"too."I"think"I"just"was"being"selfish."Maybe"I"just"wanted"your"attention."
TYRON"ALI:"(Laughs)"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Didnt"want"to"share"it"with"the"world"walking"by"you"like,"Hey!!"Hey!"
TYRON"ALI:"(Laughs)"You"know"whats"funny"is"that"there"actually,"I"was"walking"somewhere"with"my"
sister"and"she"said"to"me,"shes"like"Is"there"anybody"on"this"street"that"you"dont"know?"And"Im"like,"
Well,"yeah,"there"are"a"few"people."But,"again,"even"with"Ron"coming"here,"he"would"be"fairly"curious"
as"to"us"sitting"here."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Thats"why"I"invited"him"up"here."
TYRON"ALI:"You"know?"Because,"again,"one"of"those"things"you"know,"he"was"made"to"understand"a"few"
things."Because"Ive"only"been"up"here"for"four"months,"yet,"some"fairly"important"projects"have"found"
their"way"to"my"desk,"you"know?"So."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Where"is"your"desk?"
TYRON"ALI:"In"Philly."
VANESSA"BROWN:""You"dont"even"carry"a"brief"case"around."
TYRON"ALI:"No,"no,"no."You"know"I"own"Cambria"Legal"Center"in"Philadelphia."I"own"that."We"have"our"
office,"its"been"built"out"here"in"Harrisburg."Weve"got"an"office"in"Florida"too."Its"not"just,"its"not"just"
one"little"thing."The"problem"is,"I"think"I"may"need"to"move"up"here"
VANESSA"BROWN:""We"would"like"that."
TYRON"ALI:"But"I"really,"well"
VANESSA"BROWN:""It"doesnt"matter.""
TYRON"ALI:"No,"it"doesnt."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Because"youre"making"money."
TYRON"ALI:"Thats"right."And"thats"not"being"selfish,"thats"me."That"is"me."And"it"has"nothingVanessa,"
Ill"tell"you"something."I"love"my"job."I"love"what"I"do."I"love"how"I"do"it."I"love"the"people"I"work"with."But"
at"the"end"of"the"day,"do"you"know"how"difficult"it"is"to"get"someone"to"really"understand"what"you"do?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Oh"yeah."
25"
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T""57""March"1st,"2011"
TYRON"ALI:"Its"difficult."Its"difficult."Because"of"the"long"hours,"I"mean"yesterday"I"didnt"get"home"until"
three"oclock"in"the"morning."
VANESSA"BROWN:""You"went"all"the"way"back"to"Philly?"
TYRON"ALI:"I"did."I"did."And"its"hard"because"someone"will"say"to"you,"Oh"youre"out"having"a"good"
time."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Its"work."I"get"that"all"the"time.""
TYRON"ALI:"Its"work."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Youre"out"there"having"such"a"good"time."Thats"my"job."What?"Do"you"want"me"to"
get"out"there"and"tell"people,"I"dont"want"to"be"bothered"with"you"today?"I"have"to"be"cordial"and"
happy.""
TYRON"ALI:"Not"only"that,"you"have"to"be"aware"of"what"they"want.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""MmShmm,"yeah."
TYRON"ALI:"That"takes"a"certain"level"of"being"awake.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""Thats"right."
TYRON"ALI:"In"terms"of"being"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Oh,"and"not"to"miss"the"signals"when"theyre"giving"them"to"you."Thats"the"other"
thing."
TYRON"ALI:"Depends"on"the"signals."(Laughs)"Some"signals,"I"tell"you"something."I"guess"it"was,"what"is"
today,"Tuesday?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Youre"not"having"(?)"
TYRON"ALI:"No.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""Its"not"your"thing?"
TYRON"ALI:"On"Monday."No,"its"not"that"its"not"my"thing,"you"know"I"have"to"be"in"the"mood."Monday"
we"were,"where"were"we?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""You"didnt"even"look"at"the"menu."Youre"gonna"be"so"prejudice"to"my"little"place."
TYRON"ALI:"Why"do"you"think"I"wouldnt"like"a"place"like"this?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Hmm?"
TYRON"ALI:"You"think"that"Im"too"stiff?"(Laughs)"
26"
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T""57""March"1st,"2011"
VANESSA"BROWN:""I"dont"know"that"its"stiff."Its"just"so"privileged."
TYRON"ALI:"(Laughs)"Its"not,"its"not"that."
VANESSA"BROWN:""I"dont"blame"you"though,"youre"just"privileged."
TYRON"ALI:"I"have"to,"ya"know."We"used"to"go"to"Cook"Ems."No"one"even"believes"that"I"know"where"
Cook"Ems"is."Do"you"know"Cook"Ems?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""(Laughs)"You"cant"even"say"it"out"your"mouth."
TYRON"ALI:"Right,"right,"right.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""(Laughs)"They"go"like,"What??"
TYRON"ALI:"I"used"to"own"a"nightclub"so"how"stiff"can"I"be?"You"know?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""I"hear"the"LCB"is"hitting"all"the"bars"in"Philly"again."
TYRON"ALI:"They"already"started."One"of"our"clients,"they"um"we"had"a"small"problem"with"one"of"our"
clients"a"few"months"ago."They"raided"the"Oasis,"they"took"away"their"smoking"permit"from"penthouse,"
so"we"were,"we"were"trying"to"figure"out"where"all"this"was"coming"from"and"once"we"figured"it"out,"we"
were"like,"Oh,"okay."I"see"Mr."Verve"has"resigned"his"post,"or"will"shortly."And"thats"good,"thats"good"
for"everybody"who"owns"a"bar.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""Yeah,"I"agree"because"thats"my"familys"business."
TYRON"ALI:"In"what"sense?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""The"pub."30"years."
TYRON"ALI:"Really?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""The"Baby"Grand"on"Germantown"Avenue."
TYRON"ALI:"The"Baby"Grand.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""My"moms"the"manager,"my"uncle"owns"it.""
TYRON"ALI:"Wheres"it"next"to?"Im"trying"to"place"it.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""Wayne"Junction."The"train"station"is"there."
TYRON"ALI:"Yeah,"where"the"cabs"park."Right."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Theyre"at"the"4400"block,"theyre"right"down"the"street.""
TYRON"ALI:"Oh"my."

27"
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T""57""March"1st,"2011"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Whats"that,"Berkley"Street?"
TYRON"ALI:"MmShmm."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Is"that"Berkley"that"comes"out"to"Germantown?"
TYRON"ALI:"So"do"you"go?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""MmShmm."
TYRON"ALI:"No."Do"you?"You"know"my"day"care"center"is"around"the"corner?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Really?"
TYRON"ALI:"Yes."I"own"Logan"Child"Care."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Okay.""
TYRON"ALI:"Thats"why"I"find"it"so"funny"when"people"are"like,"Oh"youre"so"""People"dont"really"know"
me.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""(Laughs)"
TYRON"ALI:"No,"we"have"a"good"time."Usually"have"a"good"time"anyway."I"was"telling"brother"man"when"
he"gets"here,"Im"like,"Look,"when"were"done,"were"going"to"go"smoke."He"starts"laughing."I"said,"No"
Ron,"not"that."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Thats"what"he"would"prefer."
TYRON"ALI:"Yeah"(Laughs)"Right?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""I"dont"know"anything"about"that.""
(Laughs)"
VANESSA"BROWN:""But"I"read"the"paper."
TYRON"ALI:"Right."But"even"him"it"took"him"a"second"to"say,"oh"this"is"it?"Like,"yeah,"okay,"well"deal"with"
this."Because,"unfortunately,"you"know"like"Hughes"for"example."He"is"at"a"crossroads"because"hes"
become"third"fiddle"and"now"he"doesnt"know"what"to"do"about"it."Now"he"was"dealing"with"some"folks"
who"were"really"trying"to"help"themselves"instead"of"help"him."And"we"talked."And"he"was"like,"Oh"no"
you"know,"that"faade"is"there"to"keep"the"public"in"play."And"I"saw"him,"when"did"I"see"him?"A"month"
ago."And"was"like,"Hey"Ty,"can"you"call"me?"And"then"two"weeks"go"by"and"hes"like,"Hey"Ty!"Can"you"
call"me?"Im"not"going"to"call"you?"For"what?"Weve"already"selected"who"were"going"to"work"with,"
at"least"for"the"next"12"months."Im"done."I"know"where"you"are."I"know"where"Ron"is."I"know"where"our"
other"guys"are."I"know"where"the"other"lady"is."You"know,"weve"only"tried"to"touch"base"with"Rosita"
because"I"was"offered"a"deal"to"bring"in"the"gold"jewelry"to"be"sold"in"the"casino."That"is"the"only"reason"
that"were"still"in"touch"with"Rosita."And"even"if"that"doesnt"come"to"pass,"because"its"a"lot,"you"know?"
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T""57""March"1st,"2011"
And"the"person"whos"creating"the"deal"for"us,"mm,"I"cant"say"that"I"really"trust"him."So"in"the"next"two"
months,"if"I"dont"see"what"I"need,"we"cut"him"off,"we"cut"her"off."But"you"need"not"to"get"so"down"about"
things."Oh,"your"attorney"at"Cozen"OConnor,"Omen"Adam?"What"is"it?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Adam"Bowen."
TYRON"ALI:"Adam"Bowen."See!"Right,"we"will"be"having"a"conversation"in"the"next"couple"of"weeks."
VANESSA"BROWN:""MmShmm""
TYRON"ALI:"Why"would"I"know"that?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""I"dont"know."(Inaudible)"Youre"turning"into"EF"Hutton"
TYRON"ALI:"Whats"this?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Youre"turning"into"EF"Hutton.""
TYRON"ALI:"In"what"sense?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""When"you"speak"I"just"say"hmm"(Laughs)"
TYRON"ALI:"Oh.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""Let"me"make"sure"Ron"didnt"get"lost,"because"he"shouldve"been"here"by"now.""
TYRON"ALI:"Oh,"(Sigh)"Knowing"him,"hes"probably,"Hey"Ty"
VANESSA"BROWN:""(Laughs)"Thats"funny."
TYRON"ALI:"But"I"love"him"to"death."Hes"so"funny"though."He"really"is."
VANESSA"BROWN:""He"went"to"me"today,"I"said"whatever"dirty"old"thing"is"on"your"mind,"remove"it."He"
started"laughing."I"said"its"all"over"your"face."(On7the7phone)"Are"you"okay?"Okay."I"wanted"to"make"sure"
you"didnt"get"lost."
TYRON"ALI:"Or"sidetracked."Call"up"and"say,"Ron"are"you"lost"or"sidetracked?"You"can"let"me"know."
VANESSA"BROWN:""MmShmm."Some"woman"calls,"thats"the"end"of"that."
TYRON"ALI:"MmShmm."(Laughs)."Theres"one"place"here"I"think"I"want"to"go."The"Red"Door?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Yeah?"
TYRON"ALI:"Yeah,"I"havent"been"there."When"they"took"me"there"yesterday"they"were"like,"Oh,"when"
youre"in"a"situation"where"you"need"to"meet"with"someone,"and"its"really,"really"quiet."And"Im"like,"
Okay."I"dont"like"to"get"told"what"to"do.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""MmShmm"
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T""57""March"1st,"2011"
TYRON"ALI:"Everybody"has"a"suggestion."Kissing"butt"cause"they"know"whats"up.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""(Laughs)"(Inaudible)""
TYRON"ALI:"Its"been"going"on"for"some"time"now."Its"only"because,"I"guess"its"only"because"weve"got"
our"hands"wrapped"around"so"much"and"theres"so"much"at"stake."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Want"to"look"at"the"menu?"
TYRON"ALI:"Im"sure"I"know"whats"on"it.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""After"this"meal,"youre"gonna"go"have"dinner."(Laughs)."
TYRON"ALI:"You"know,"if"you"dont"stop."
VANESSA"BROWN:""My"goodness."(Laughs)."
TYRON"ALI:"Ill"tell"you"something"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Are"you"staying"here"tonight?"
TYRON"ALI:"No."I"never"stay.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""You"dont"drive"back,"your"driver"drives"back"right?"
TYRON"ALI:"Well,"yeah,"yeah."Its"
VANESSA"BROWN:""What"does"he"do"while"hes"here?"
TYRON"ALI:"I"have"a"place."But,"I"find"this"town"to"be"toxic."No"I"want"to"go"back"home,"sleep"in"my"own"
bed,"watch"my"own"TV,"talk"on"my"own"phone"and"hang"out."Up"here,"Harrisburg"is"um,"an"acquired"
taste."
VANESSA"BROWN:""MmShmm."
TYRON"ALI:"I"know"it"must"have"taken"some"use,"taken"some"getting"used"to"right?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Im"still"not"used"to"it."
TYRON"ALI:"Ok."Thats"honesty."
VANESSA"BROWN:""I"almost,"when"they"ended"the"session"early,"I"almost"got"in"car"and"went"home.""
TYRON"ALI:"Today?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""It"was"very"hard"not"to"do"that."It"was"12:30"when"he"said,"No"more"votes."I"went"
downstairs,"and"I"got"in"my"car"and"I"started"it"up."And"I"said,"Man,"I"oughta"hit"that"turnpike"and"not"
look"back."And"I"said,"Aw,"I"gotta"come"right"back"up"tomorrow."Ill"stay."

30"
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T""57""March"1st,"2011"
TYRON"ALI:"Its,"you"know,"its"one"of"those"things,"you"know"I"was"told,"Yo,"Ty."One"of"the"things"you"
have"to"understand"when"youre"in"Harrisburg"is"you"know,"you"can"be"only"so"effective"if"youre"not"
white."Okay."You"know"I"think"the"legislative"black"caucus"is"as"unimportant"as"they"are"
unimportant."I"said,"Well"
VANESSA"BROWN:""That"sounds"like"Angel"Cruz."(Laughs)""
TYRON"ALI:"No,"it"wasnt"him."
VANESSA"BROWN:""You"know"he"resigned"from"the"Caucus,"did"Ron"tell"you"about"that?"
TYRON"ALI:"You"know"what,"heres"the"truth:"its"probably"better."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Yeah,"cause"hes"acid.""
TYRON"ALI:"I"dont,"I"dont"know."Yesterday"with"Maria"getting"ousted"from"the"board"
WAITRESS:""Are"you"two"doing"okay?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Yeah,"were"fine."Our"guest"is"just"about"here."
WAITRESS:""Okay.""
TYRON"ALI:"SSFrom"the"DRP."I"laughed"and"laughed"and"laughed"and"laugh"when"Carmen"was"like,"Did"
you"guys"know?"Sure!"But"I"dont"have"to"tell"you."Because"Im"a"republican"and"youre"a"Democrat,"
right?"We"dont"play"with"each"other"so"Were"not"in"the"same"sandbox."Unfortunate."I"just"want"to"
see"who"shes"going"to"wind"up"running"against"Tony.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""Shes"a"funny"(Inaudible)""
TYRON"ALI:"Well"they"act"like"theyre"seasoned"politicians."When"theyre"simply"seasoned"selfish"people."
Thats"all"it"is.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""MmShmm."Her"and"her"husband.""
TYRON"ALI:"You"know,"when"I"was"fairly"young,"you"know"someone"once"told"me"that"if"youre"not"being"
used,"youre"of"no"use."And"I"guess,"you"know,"I"fell"into"that"category"for"a"long"time."And"eventually"
you"find"yourself"becoming"selfSaware."Like,"wait"a"second,"if"youre"getting"$300,000"in"this"grant,"how"
come"Im"getting"$12,000?"What?"That"doesnt"sound"right."Theres"no"balance"of"economics"here."
VANESSA"BROWN:""MmShmm."
TYRON"ALI:"Thats"why"I"want"you"to"think"long"and"hard"and"I"need"you"to"do"it"quickly."In"the"next"two"
weeks."What"kind"of"nonSprofit"are"we"going"to"set"up?"Who"we"can"get"$25,000"from"to"do"the"first"
study?"And"then"we"can"either"form"the"partnership"with"someone"huge"
VANESSA"BROWN:""What"about"the"CDC?"
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T""57""March"1st,"2011"
TYRON"ALI:"Which"one?"See"heres"the"thing."Do"you"know"the"difference"between"the"CDC"and"the"
CDFI?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""No."CDFI"is"a"financial"
TYRON"ALI:"Institute."And"they"get"to"handle"their"own"funds."CDC"needs"a"fiduciary."I"dont"like"anybody"
handling"my"money."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Not"unless"the"CDC"is"a"501c3?"
TYRON"ALI:"If"the"CDC"is"a"501c3,"Ill"have"to"check"it,"but"I"believe"the"same"rules"apply."
VANESSA"BROWN:""You"know"what,"yes,"youre"right."Because"we"have"Peoples"Emergency"Center."And"
then"we"have"Peoples"Emergency"Center"CDC"but"the"Peoples"Emergency"Center"handles"the"funds."
Absolutely"right."Absolutely"right."They"handle"the"funds."Interesting."So,"I"talked"to"community"council"
two"years"ago"for"mental"health"and"retardation."
TYRON"ALI:"MmShmm."
VANESSA"BROWN:""And"you"asked"me"for"the"large"institutes"and"they"handle"multiSmillions"of"dollars"
of"contracts."
TYRON"ALI:"MmShmm."
VANESSA"BROWN:""and"for"mental"health."And"I"said,"Why"dont"you"start"a"CDC?"But"he"didnt"have"
the"capacity"and"didnt"know"how"to"do"that."I"said,"Because"you"could"get"a"lot"of"money"funneled"to"
you"from"CDC"to"help"the"surrounding"neighborhood."You"have"all"this"transient"community"coming"in"
through"this"community,"but"you"really"need"to"do"something"for"the"mental"health"issues"and"
surrounding."You"need"to"help"with"blight,"we"can"get"money"to"do"neighborhood"revitalization,"blight"
elimination,"safety."We"can"do"street"lighting."All"that"kind"of"things"we"can"run"through"here"for"an"
organization."So"thats"something"to"think"about."
TYRON"ALI:"How"much"money"would"be"associated"with"a"project"such"as"that"in"terms"of"startup"costs?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""I"would"like"to"see"a"corporate"sponsor"who"would"give"$100,000"every"year"for"ten"
years."
TYRON"ALI:"Um,"Dwight"did"that"with"Home"Depot."I"remember"that"
VANESSA"BROWN:""We"have"Lowes"in"our"community.""
TYRON"ALI:"Lowes."At"some"point,"and"I"guess"it"comes"with"your"level"of"comfort,"but"at"some"point,"
when"you"realize"that"I"will"get"things"done"for"you,"having"the"ability,"the"empowered"ability"to"go"and"
negotiate"on"your"behalf,"thats"the"key."That"is"the"key."
SS01:38:29"

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T""57""March"1st,"2011"
VANESSA"BROWN:""I"need"to"look"myself."
TYRON"ALI:"Im"actually"just"looking"for"the"address."I"think"its"10"Houck."
VANESSA"BROWN:""She"just"said"10"Houck"Road."
TYRON"ALI:"Oh"its"road,"okay.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""So"youre"going"to"have"him"pick"you"up"from"here."
TYRON"ALI:"I"dont"know."Well"see."Im"just"putting"it"in"here"so"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Im"not"going"to"bring"you"back?"
TYRON"ALI:"Vanessa,"trust"me"when"I"tell"you:"that"is"the"last"thing"Im"worried"about."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Let"me"find"out"you"have"breadcrumbs,"throwing"them"out"the"window.""
TYRON"ALI:"(Laughs)"No."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Where"is"this"girl"taking"me?"Gilligans"island?"Damn"Gilligans"(Laughs)""
TYRON"ALI:"Gilligans"island."Ive"neverand"I"wouldve"never"guessed.""
TYRON"ALI:"Lowes"is"perhaps"a"good"fit."Anything"with"national"brand"awareness"is"a"good"fit."But"you"
have"to"be"able"to"apply"pressure."When"you"talk"about"the"people"you"have"in"the"street"on"your"street"
teams,"thats"physically"helpful,"but"not"really."Being"able"to"propose"legislation"that"imposes"taxes"or"
fines,"for"specific"issues"as"it"relates"to"commercial"businesses"is"always"helpful."Its"almost"like,"you"are"
legislatively"always"threatening"the"balance."And"that"brings"them"to"the"table.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""He"said"Gilligans?"Where"the"hell"are"you?"(Laughs)""
TYRON"ALI."It"brings,"you"know"it"brings"them"to"the"table"without"you"soliciting,"you"know,"Hey"we"
need"this,"we"need"that."Theres"a"way"to"bring"them"without"even"talking"to"them."
VANESSA"BROWN:""MmShmm."Okay."
TYRON"ALI:"I"cant"imagine"that"you"have"notall"this"time"youve"been"on"your"own,"by"yourself."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Why"cant"you"imagine"that?"
TYRON"ALI:"Because,"its"hard"to"manage"the"process,"manage"the"people,"manage"the"operation"if"
youre"by"yourself."Poor"Takeisha,"she"doesnt"know"if"shes"coming"or"going."Shes"so"scatterbrained"its"
like"
VANESSA"BROWN:""I"talked"to"her"today."I"said,"You"need"another"person"in"here"Get"rid"of"the"intern."
SS01:41:18"
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T""57""March"1st,"2011"
TYRON"ALI:"There"he"is!"(Laughs)"Looking"all"smooth."Whats"up,"sir?"
RON"WATERS:""(Laughs)"Hey."Okay"man."How"you"doin?"You"alright.""
TYRON"ALI:"Good."Good,"good."
VANESSA"BROWN:""I"know"he"wants"to"sit"here.""
(Laughs)"
TYRON"ALI:"Oh"okay."
VANESSA"BROWN:""I"know"you,"you"want"to"sit"next"to"the"lady.""
RON"WATERS:""She"got"me"pegged"man."She"got"you"beat"man.""
(Laughs)"
WAITRESS:""Hello.""
RON"WATERS:""Hi."
WAITRESS:""Can"I"get"you"something"to"drink?"
RON"WATERS:""What"are"yall"drinking?"I"know"what"I"want,"I"want"a"hot"tea."
WAITRESS:""Hot"tea?"
RON"WATERS:""Yes."
TYRON"ALI:"As"soon"as"you"show"up"you"get"the"royal"treatment."Pull"out"the"chair"for"you,"stuff"like"
that.""When"youre"the"chairman,"thats"what"happens,"right?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Hes"so"spoiled."Hes"so"rotten."
(Laughs)"
RON"WATERS:""Yeah"and"dont"I"love"it."(Laughs)"Yeah,"you"know"me"and"Vanessa"got"a"thing"going"on,"
you"know"what"I"mean?"
TYRON"ALI:"Oh"okay."(Laughs)."Were"among"friends"so"its"alright."How"was"the"thing"last"night?"It"went"
okay?"
RON"WATERS:""It"was"very"nice."The"one"with"Bob"Bogle?"
TYRON"ALI:"Want"to"hear"something"funny?"
RON"WATERS:""MmShmm"
TYRON"ALI:"So"he"comes"backand"he"finds"out"hes"been"ousted"from"the"board"of"the"DRPA."(Laughs)"
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T""57""March"1st,"2011"
RON"WATERS:""He"has?"Who?"
TYRON"ALI:"Everybody."
RON"WATERS:""Bob"Bogle?"He"was"on"the"DRP?"Oh"wow."I"didnt"know"that."Johnny"Docs"people."
TYRON"ALI:"So"now"folks"are"
RON"WATERS:""Cause"there"was"some"folks"that"came"up"and"were"talking"about"Johnny"Doc,"mentioned"
the"DRP,"mentioned"that"they"wereSS""
TYRON"ALI:"So"is"your"buddy"over"in"Frankford."Maria,"Maria."(Laughs)"
RON"WATERS:""Who?"The"council"woman?"Yeah,"shes"gone.""
TYRON"ALI:"I"told"Juan,"one"day"youre"going"to"see"me"and"youre"going"to"be"struggling,"cause"youre"
going"to"want"to"talk"to"me"and"youre"not"going"to"be"able"to."That"day"has"come."
RON"WATERS:""Yeah."Yeah."
TYRON"ALI:"We"sure"have"suffered"right?"
RON"WATERS:""We"definitely"did."
TYRON"ALI:"We"have"suffered."So"now"its"our"turn."
RON"WATERS:""Chances"go"around."(Inaudible)"used"to"always"say,"Crosby"says"everybody"gets"their"
turn,"you"just"have"to"live"long"enough.""
WAITRESS:""Did"you"want"a"couple"of"minutes"then"to"look"over"the"menu?"
RON"WATERS:""Oh"no,"Im"okay."
WAITRESS:""Oh,"youre"not"dining?"
RON"WATERS:""But"you"know"what"
TYRON"ALI:"You"should"eat"something."Dont"not"eat"anything,"make"sure"you"eat.""
RON"WATERS:""What"do"you"have"that"is"a"popular"item"for"like"an"appetizer?"
WAITRESS:""Appetizer?"The"crab"and"spinach"dip,"the"Gilligans"alternative,"our"crabSstuffed"mushrooms."
RON"WATERS:""No,"I"dont"want"no"mushrooms."What"was"the"first"thing"you"said?"
WAITRESS:""Crab"and"spinach"dip?"
TYRON"ALI:"No"he"wants"some"cod.""
(Laughs)"
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T""57""March"1st,"2011"
RON"WATERS:""Cod?"(Inaudible)"
TYRON"ALI:"Right."
RON"WATERS:""What"did"yall"eat?"
TYRON"ALI:"We"havent"eaten."
RON"WATERS:""Oh."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Give"us"another"minute."We"havent"even"ordered."We"havent"decided"yet.""
RON"WATERS:""Oh,"you"havent"ordered?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""No,"we"were"waiting"for"you."The"guest"of"honor.""
TYRON"ALI:"We"were"waiting"for"your"highness,"your"highness.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""The"royal"hiney.""
RON"WATERS:""I"was"waiting"to"see"this"guy"in"the"morning."
VANESSA"BROWN:""He"didnt"hear"that"one.""
RON"WATERS:""I"heard"you,"your"royal"hiney.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""(Laughing)"
TYRON"ALI:"Yeah!"We"were"out"last"night"til"3"brother.""
RON"WATERS:""Yeah?""
TYRON"ALI:"Oh,"I"was"tired."I"was"tired."But"Ill"be"there"in"the"morning."
RON"WATERS:""I"got"back"um,"I"dont"know"what"time"I"got"back?"Around"11:30?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""You"drove"all"the"way"to"DC"and"back"by"yourself?"
TYRON"ALI:"Yeah."
RON"WATERS:""Yeah."DC"is"closer"to"here"than"it"is"from"Philly."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Yeah."
RON"WATERS:""About"20"miles"closer."And"its,"no,"no"toll"booths,"its"amazing"how"that"is."Its"straight"
road.""But"I"felt"energized"after"that"thing."I"felt"good."Bob"Bogle"was"happy."I"was"glad"to"see"Senator"
Casey,"we"go"back."Margowitz"sent"one"her"staff"people"there."Marion"Tasker"was"supposed"to"come,"
they"called"her"name"out."But"I"was"happy"to"be"there"and"speak"on"behalf"of"the"Black"Caucus."See"

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T""57""March"1st,"2011"
sometimes"when"I"go"out"its"not"just"fundraising,"its"for"the"caucus."When"I"speak"about"the"caucus."I"
speak"about"how,"things"with"Bob"Bogle"
(Tyron"Ali"laughing)"
RON"WATERS:""Meeting"with"Senator"Casey"about"how"could"he"get"the"message"out,"how"could"he"help"
us,"cause"he"said"he"would."So"now"weve"got"the"Inquirer,"who"never"was"a"friend"who"would"report"
stuff"on"black"people,"it"was"a"rare"thing."Now"he"wants"to"sit"down"with"Bob"and"have"an"interview"on"
what"were"doing."Everybody"started"clapping."I"said,"yeah,"because"they"noticed"that"we"are"getting"
attention."We"are"doing"a"lot"of"stuff."They"showed"the"Black"Caucus"in"the"paper"a"couple"of"times."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Front"page."Cause"if"you"didnt"tell"the"story,"who"would?"
RON"WATERS:""Thats"right."Thats"exactly"right."So"I"thanked"them"and"everyone"applauded"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Are"you"ordering"anything,"or"are"you"upset"that"I"(Inaudible)."
TYRON"ALI:"Oh."Ron,"what"is"wrong"with"this"lady?"Can"you"tell"her"I"grew"up"in"Logan"and"Im"alright"
man?"She"keeps"thinking"Im"stiff."(Laughs)"
RON"WATERS:""He"aint"stiff"at"all.""
TYRON"ALI:"So"listen,"they"have"two"meetings"on"Thursday,"Ill"call"you"and"give"you"the"details,"but"it"
have"to"do"with,"remember"that"guy"that"Nutter"had"as"the"chair"of"exSoffender,"before,"or"after"Malik,"
Ron"Cooey?""
RON"WATERS:""Was"it"Ron"Cooey?"Yeah."
TYRON"ALI:"I"dont"know"whats"going"on,"but"we"will"know"Thursday."
RON"WATERS:""He"had"a"relapse."Thats"when"he"moved"him"out"of"that"place"on"54th"and"Woodland.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""That"big"guy?"The"real"big"guy."
TYRON"ALI:"You"gotta"be"kidding"me.""
RON"WATERS:""That"was"a"while"ago!"
TYRON"ALI:"But"hes"doing"something"now,"he"got"involved"in"something"else."
RON"WATERS:""Yeah."
TYRON"ALI:"And"believe"it"or"not,"he"has"a"lot"of"supporters."
RON"WATERS:""Hes"a"really"good"guy."
TYRON"ALI:"He"is"a"smart"guy,"a"very,"very"smart"guy.""

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T""57""March"1st,"2011"
RON"WATERS:""But"now"they"want"to"open"another"prison."Now"they"got"one"scheduled"to"go"in"over"
63rd"and"Ludlow."Right"where"the"church"is."That"big"church"on"the"corner."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Thats"crazy."
RON"WATERS:""They"want"to"do"a"female"prison,"well"not"a"prison,"but"a"female"place"for"people"turning,"
Its"supposed"to"be"for"women,"where"they"can"have"their"children"live"with"them,"something"like"that."
TYRON"ALI:"That"is"not"the"answer.""
RON"WATERS:""No."
TYRON"ALI:"Whos"behind"this"one,"Nicolletti"again?"
RON"WATERS:""I"dont"know."Because"I"know"that"Nicolletti"had"come"and"talked"to"me"about,"he"
wanted"to"do"that,"he"and"some"guy"named"Jim"Davis."
TYRON"ALI:"Yeah,"Jim"is"my"boy."He"runs"Liberty"Management."Old"white"boy."My"man."
RON"WATERS:""Right."Right."So"I"told"him,"I"said,"listen,"cause"I"told"him"about"the"problem"over"there"in"
southwest"Philly."I"said,"You"know"what?"Ima"tell"yall"now,"doing"a"prison"or"anything"like"this"is"gonna"
a"hard"sell."You"know"so,"Im"gonna"give"you"a"tip."Yall"gotta"get"your"message"together"and"make"it"
strong"cause"you"gotta"talk"to"the"community."And"if"they"opposed"to"it"then"Im"going"to"be"with"the"
community."Because"I"told"them"
TYRON"ALI:"Oh,"okay."Before"the"rockets"start"going"off,"let"me"talk"to"you"for"a"second,"alright?"Heres"
the"deal."
RON"WATERS:""Yeah?"
TYRON"ALI:"Sir,"Tuesday"I"have"a"meeting"with"Jim"at"the"Union"League.""
RON"WATERS:""Okay."
TYRON"ALI:"I"will"let"you"know."
RON"WATERS:""Okay."Okay."
TYRON"ALI:"Alright?"Cause"they"called"crying"already"because"Shirley"doesnt"set"them"up."She"set"em"
up."She"set"em"up."Yo,"can"I"tell"you"(laughing),"they"were""they"were"crying,"Ty!"I"dont"get"it!"
RON"WATERS:""But"the"got"a"facility"down"in"her"district"on"Lehigh"Avenue."Cause"she"was"opposed"to"it"
at"first"because"the"community"was."See"but"thats"the"problem."You"gotta"get"somebody"like"that"to"
TYRON"ALI:"Now"you"gonna"make"me"lean"back"and"put"up"my"leg"because"now"I"gotta"talk"to"you."
Listen,"(Whispering)"they"lied"to"her.""
RON"WATERS:""Oh"okay."
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T""57""March"1st,"2011"
TYRON"ALI:"They"lied"to"her."Caused"what"happened"was,"Jim"was"like,"Yo"man,"I"know"you,"you"come"
down"there"and"talk"to"them"cause,"they"listen"to"you"Ty."I"said,"Who"do"you"want"to"come"down"
there?"
RON"WATERS:""(Inaudible)"
TYRON"ALI:"Kathy"Batt"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Kathy"Batts?"
RON"WATERS:""Shes"the"one"who"took"us"on"the"tour."
TYRON"ALI:"Shh."Shh."So"now,"so"now,"they"done"gave"me"honorary"something"for"your"group."
RON"WATERS:""Which"one?"
TYRON"ALI:"All"the"police"people.""
RON"WATERS:""(Inaudible)"
TYRON"ALI:"Yeah,"so"now"they"done."They"gave"me"a"little"something."I"started"laughing"Ron,"cause"I"
said,"I"asked"them,"What"that"cost?"About"$.25?"
(Laughing)"
TYRON"ALI:"So"hell,"I"called"them"out."I"said,"Man,"look"Ill"be"sheriff"like"you."(Laughs)"
RON"WATERS:""You"take"that,"and"a"dollar."Youll"get"a"small"frosty."
(Laughing)"
TYRON"ALI:"So"we"laughing"and"talking."Jim"said"to"me,"he"goes,"I"dont"know"what"to"say"Tyron."I"mean,"
I"dont"know"what"to"say."I"said,"Well,"I"know"this"is"a"challenge"for"you,"but"the"truth"might"be"good."
(Laughing)"
RON"WATERS:""Aw"man."
TYRON"ALI:"They"cant"say"anything."You"know"what"I"mean?"Cause"its"hard"for"them"to"even,"its"hard"
for"them"to"lie"to"me"cause"I"know"their"games.""
RON"WATERS:""Yeah."
TYRON"ALI:"So"then,"they"brought"in"that"guy"that"used"to"be"an"old"drug"dealer,"Jim"Harden."The"
Republican"ward"leader."
RON"WATERS:""Oh"okay."Okay."
TYRON"ALI:"From"out"of"Germantown."They"sent"him"up"there"to"go"talk"to"Shirley."So"thats"
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T""57""March"1st,"2011"
RON"WATERS:""So"they"lied"to"her?"I"thought"they"talked"to"her"about"a"candidate"for"warden."
TYRON"ALI:"They"did."They"did."I"know"they"did."Cause"I"was"there."
RON"WATERS:""Okay."
TYRON"ALI:"You"know"what"I"mean?"
RON"WATERS:""Okay."
TYRON"ALI:"So"its"now"empty."Its"empty."
RON"WATERS:""It"is?"
TYRON"ALI:"Its"empty."Because,"remember"now,"the"way"that"we"had"it"set"up,"Little"Pages"right"here."I"
own"that"building"on"the"corner."
RON"WATERS:""Right."
TYRON"ALI:"Mark"owns"the"prison"on"the"side."But"he"owns"the"other"building."The"other"building,"the"
process"got"stopped"because"when"the"city"
WAITRESS:""You"guys"decided"or"you"want"more"time?"
RON"WATERS:""Oh."Go"ahead."
TYRON"ALI:"Start"with"the"lady.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""Im"going"to"have"a"salad."
WAITRESS:""Okay."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Can"I"have"a"little"extra"dressing"on"the"side?""
RON"WATERS:""(Inaudible)"No,"I"dont"eat"salmon."
VANESSA"BROWN:""And"hes"going"to"have"the"same."
WAITRESS:""Okay."
TYRON"ALI:"Can"I"have"the"shrimp"marinara?"Is"it"good"here?"Wait"a"second,"what"would"you"
recommend?"
WAITRESS:""I"mean"it"depends"what"you"like."Do"you"like"steak?"Seafood?""
TYRON"ALI:"Seafood.""
WAITRESS:""Um,"our"Chicken"Chesapeake"is"very"good."Seafood"parmesan"I"like."
TYRON"ALI:"Ill"go"with"that."
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T""57""March"1st,"2011"
WAITRESS:""Seafood"parmesan?"
TYRON"ALI:"Yeah.""
WAITRESS:""You"get"one"side"with"that."Salad,"broccoli,"zucchini"and"squash"marinara,"rice,"coleslaw."
TYRON"ALI:"Rice"is"fine."
WAITRESS:""Rice?"
TYRON"ALI:"Yeah."
WAITRESS:""Thank"you."Ill"take"these."
TYRON"ALI:"Thank"you"dear."
WAITRESS:""Youre"welcome.""
SS01:52:56"
TYRON"ALI:"So,"so"we"will"know"whats"going"on"on"Tuesday."
RON"WATERS:""Okay."
TYRON"ALI:"Jim"is"like"Listen,"cant"you"guys"help"us?"I"said,"Listen,"I"can"help"you."Did"I"show"you,"we"
all"have"business"cards"now?"Did"I"show"you"my"business"card?"Hes"said"no."(Laughing)"Cause"now"hes"
stuck."Now"hes"stuck."Like,"Ty"come"on"man,"we"can"go"to"Union"League"and"talk"about"business"
(Laughing)"
RON"WATERS:""Right,"right."Whens"the"meeting?"
TYRON"ALI:"Tuesday.""
RON"WATERS:""Thats"the"same"day"the"Governor"does"his"budget"hearings."I"cant"wait"to"hear"this"one."
Its"going"to"be"ugly."
TYRON"ALI:"There"is"no"sacred"cow"in"the"pasture"my"friend."
RON"WATERS:""No."Thats"their"fault."They"couldve"raised"revenue.""
TYRON"ALI:"They"couldve"raised"taxes,"it"wouldve"been"simpler."
RON"WATERS:""They"couldve"raised"taxes."For"a"small"amount,"theres"400"people."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Tobacco."
RON"WATERS:""Tobacco,"Delaware"loophole."
VANESSA"BROWN:""What"you"looking"at"me"like"that"for?"
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T""57""March"1st,"2011"
RON"WATERS:""Its"money."I"mean"we"have"to"go"after"every"dollar,"just"like"we"did"last"budget.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""You"still"like"tobacco?"
RON"WATERS:""Yeah"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Smokeless"tobacco."
RON"WATERS:""Were"the"only"state"that"dont"tax"it."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Cigars"
RON"WATERS:""Were"the"only"state"that"dont"tax"it.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""Lookterrible."
WAITRESS:""Can"I"clear"this"plate"for"you?"
TYRON"ALI:"Thank"you."
RON"WATERS:""One"of"the"members"has"a"cigar"manufacturer"in"his"district"so"hes"against"it"because"he"
says"he"dont"want"the"cigar"company"to"leave."
TYRON"ALI:"Which"one?"Which"one?"Up"near"Pittsburgh?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Theyre"not"going"to"leave"because"of"the"taxes."
RON"WATERS:""Where"they"gonna"go?"Anywhere"they"go"theyre"taxing"already.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""Right,"right!"Theyre"not"going"anywhere.""
TYRON"ALI:"Who"has"a"cigar"manufacturer"in"their"district?"
RON"WATERS:""One"of"the"members,"Im"trying"to"think"of"which"one"it"is.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""Hell"be"at"his"office"tomorrow"trying"to"make"a"deal"for"cigars."
RON"WATERS:""Yeah."But"its"a"cigar"manufacturer"
TYRON"ALI:"I"get"the"best.""
RON"WATERS:""Ill"think"about"it."Its"not"in"Philly."I"think"its"in"the"Northeast"part"of"the"State.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""You"and"Jewells"smoke"the"thing"together?"
TYRON"ALI:"Who?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""You"and"Jewells"smoke"together?"
TYRON"ALI:"Who?"
42"
"

T""57""March"1st,"2011"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Jewells."Uh"oh."
(Laughing)""
TYRON"ALI:"Ron,"shes"making"me"laugh!"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Order."
TYRON"ALI:"So,"so"Sammy"send"me"this,"where"is"it?"This"is"Youll"enjoy"this."I"hope"I"still"have"it."Now"
they"come"and"asking"me"for"stuff.""
RON"WATERS:""Really?"
TYRON"ALI:"Yeah."I"hope"I"have"it.""
RON"WATERS:""Okay."
TYRON"ALI:"I"tell"you"boy,"after"one"day"its"another"one."
RON"WATERS:""You"have"anything"yet?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""MmShmm."Why"you"getting"hungry"now?"
RON"WATERS:""UnhSunh."I"dont"know"why"I"dont"have"much"of"an"appetite"today.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""I"thought"I"would"have"one.""
TYRON"ALI:"It"erased,"basically"their"asking"for"my"support"for"him"for"sheriff."
RON"WATERS:""Jewell,"he"got"(Inaudible)"for"sheriff."
TYRON"ALI:"Unh"unh."The"Palestinian"boy."You"know,"thats"his"man."Used"to"be"my"man."(Laughs)"
RON"WATERS:""Oh"really?"
TYRON"ALI:"Yeah!"We"used"to"be"tight!"
RON"WATERS:""Hes"running"for"sheriff?"Who"else"is"running"for"sheriff?"
TYRON"ALI:"Theyre"saying"no"one"else"is"running"for"sheriff."His"buddy,"he"told"him,"he"was"like,"Yo,"I"
know"you"and"Ty"tight"like"I"didnt"even"respond,"Ron."When"I"looked"at"it,"I"started"laughing."I"said,"
Look,"your"buddy"already"left"the"caucus"right?"Look"what"hes"sending"me."
RON"WATERS:""MmShmm"
TYRON"ALI:"MmShmm."(Laughing)"
RON"WATERS:""Hes"just"running"around"now"trying"to"start"trouble"everywhere."He"mad.""
TYRON"ALI:"He"upset."He"is"upset."
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T""57""March"1st,"2011"
RON"WATERS:""Whatd"he"want"you"to"do?""
TYRON"ALI:"Fundraiser."
RON"WATERS:""You"dont"give"up"nothing."
TYRON"ALI:"Im"not.""
RON"WATERS:""I"dont"get"him,"man,"hes"like"a"meanSspirited"person.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""Its"selfShate."
RON"WATERS:""Yeah."He"always"want"to"strike"at"people."He"wants"to"be"more"powerful"than"he"is."
(Inaudible)"He"won"by"144"votes,"you"know"what"Im"sayin?"And"he"had"to"fight"for"those"100"votes."You"
know?"I"dont"think"that"case"is"even"settled"yet."
TYRON"ALI:"At"some"point,"you"know"the"kid"who"works"for"Tony"Payton?"Jorges"son."
RON"WATERS:""Yup."Yeah,"yea,"I"saw"him"this"morning"too."
TYRON"ALI:"He"aint"smart"like"us,"man."
RON"WATERS:""I"aint"saying"hes"smart"like"us."Just"want"him"to"beat"that"asshole."
(Laughing)"
RON"WATERS:""That"guy"came"to"Harrisburg"saying"(Inaudible)."We"only"let"him"say"he"was"in"it"because"
we"thought"that"it"was"the"right"thing"to"do."But"he"never"really"participated."Now"hes"out"attacking"
people."
TYRON"ALI:"Im"gonna"tell"you"something."I"sat"him"down"last"night."I"sat"him"down."I"said,"Let"me"tell"
you,"bro."You"know"I"love"you"as"much"as"I"love"it"when"I"get"a"headache."So"lets"just"be,"let"me"just"put"
something"out"here"to"you."You"saying"some"stuff"about"our"folks"and"theyre"getting"to"hear"it."So"
unless,"you"know,"unless,"its"something"kind,"could"you"please"refrain?"Thats"not"what"I"said,"Im"being"
kind."He"just"looked"at"me."Cause"you"know"Tony"knows"us."
RON"WATERS:""Yeah."
TYRON"ALI:"He"knows."(Laughs)"
RON"WATERS:""Yeah"you"know."We"met"today"and"Curtis"said"someone"was"talking"in"Sherelles"office"
about"the"committee,"the"reassignments"in"committee"and"he"was"saying"that"some"committee"he"was"
taken"off"of,"you"know,"it"happened"to"a"lot"of"us."I"dont"want"to"leave"community"service,"I"like"
community"service."But"Im"off,"ok."But"Curtis"talkin"about,"you"know"they"took"him"off"of"some"
committee"
VANESSA"BROWN:""He"talking"about"appropriation?"
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T""57""March"1st,"2011"
RON"WATERS:""Oh"no,"no."He"talkin"about"whatever"the"new"juggling"that"took"place."He"got"moved"
too."So"I"think."He"comes"in"Cherelles"office"talking"about"it,"so"I"said,"Listen,"you"gotta,"you"gotta"stop"
worrying"about"these"problems"like"that."And"um,"he"said,"Yeah"but"we"got"She"said,"Those"who"
come,"come."Those"who"dont"come,"thats"ok"too."But"we"gotta"keep"moving"forward."We"cant"get"
caught"up"with"the"people"who"are"hesitating"or"dragging"their"feet."We"gotta"move"forward"with"what"
we"got."I"think"that"the"executive"members"have"a"very"cool,"calm,"collected"when"it"comes"down"to"
what"we"need"to"do."I"think"we"have"demonstrated"both"leadership"and"discipline"and"respect,"okay?"
Now"these"other"people"thats"not"coming"forward,"they"may"bring"it"with"they"come."So"lets"not"worry"
about"them."Lets"show"them"by"example"what"they"want"to"be"a"part"of."Okay?"So"let"them"hesitate."
Were"going"forward"
VANESSA"BROWN:""I"noticed"when"you"asked"Cherelle"yesterday,"she"didnt"even"acknowledge"you."
RON"WATERS:""I"know."We"cool."The"Dwight"thing"man."Dwight"He"been"there"20"years."Hes"going"
forward"with"his"life."He"said"that"at"community"its"his"last"term."Yall"cant"hurt"me."Im"fine."He"was"
very"clear."Hes"was"very"clear"that"hes"got"money."He"has"property."He"has"a"future."He"has"a"full"
pension."You"know"he"got"a"lifetime"ahead"of"him."Dwight"is"fine."
VANESSA"BROWN:""He"said,"You"got"more"years"ahead"of"you"than"I"have"behind"me."
RON"WATERS:""Thats"right."Hes"set"for"life."(Inaudible)"He"got"elected"as"State"Rep."He"just"didnt"get"
chair"of"the"committee."Time"to"go"forward,"know"what"I"mean?"I"tried"to"talk"to"him"but"you"know,"
look."I"didnt"do"anything"to"him."I"was"doing"it"for"him."I"rallied"for"him."We"held"meetings"for"him."I"
wasnt"trying"to"get"over.""I"didnt"accept"the"position"in"leadership"just"because"I"thought"they"was"
doing"a"bait"and"switch."You"know"what"I"mean,"well"switch"this"one"for"that"one."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Which"was"a"mistake.""
RON"WATERS:""Now"I"know!"Like,"dag,"yo,"what"difference"did"it"make?"It"wasnt,"and"thats,"you"know,"
Im"ashamed"to"say"that"now."Bill"Preston"mentioned"that"praise"in"the"press"the"other"day"though.""I"
dont"know"if"you"saw"the"Tribune,"you"should"see"the"Tribune,"front"page"about"us"and"not"getting"key"
committee"positions."
TYRON"ALI:"Marginalized"is"the"word."
RON"WATERS:"""Yeah,"yup."It"was"a"nice"article,"though."It"was"fullS"It"had"quotes"in"there"from"Jake,"
quotes"in"there"from"Jake"complaining,"he"was"like,"you"know,"we"was"like"an"afterthought."You"know,"
cause"I"said"there"was"going"to"be"some"corrections,"like"what"the"promise"was.""So,"you"know"but,"for"
the"most"part,"its"time"right"now."For"all"of"us,"this"is"the"time."Were"going"to"pick"ourselves"up."We"
aint"gonna"sit"around"and"mope."And"mope"because"that"guy"didnt"get"elected."
VANESSA"BROWN:""I"only"think"its"just"one"person"moping,"I"dont"think"anyone"else"is"moping"around."
Did"you"see,"you"missed"when"Thomas"was"upset"with"Margo"today?"
RON"WATERS:""No."What"happened?"
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T""57""March"1st,"2011"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Well"first"of"all"Margo"came"up"to"me"today,"and"you"know"how"she"is,"and"she"
apologized"for"not"speaking"to"me"because"she"had"to"apologize"to"Greg"Patelli"yesterday"and"I"was"
standing"there,"I"didnt"know"that"they"had,"that"there"was"something"going"on"between"the"two"of"
them"with"Marcellus"and"the"drilling"of"the"forest."The"forest"drilling."
RON"WATERS:""Yeah."The"severance"tax?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Anyway,"theyve"been"disagreeing"on"some"stuff"in"the"press."And"today"when"she"
came"to"apologize"I"said,"I"need"to"talk"to"you"about"the"comments"you"made"at"the"Democratic"Reform"
show."
RON"WATERS:""Yeah!"At"the"retreat!"
VANESSA"BROWN:""At"the"reform"show."And"I"said,"I"didnt"appreciate"your"comments"when"you"said"
that"there"were"people"who"were"scourge"of"society"
RON"WATERS:""Yeah,"scourge!"
VANESSA"BROWN:""And"I"didnt"appreciate"that"you"said"there"are"people"who"didnt"want"any"help."
Who"refused"help"and"you"know,"wanted"to"stay"downtrodden."You"know,"she"said,"People"just"refuse"
help."And"she"said,"isnt"that"how"she"said"it?"
RON"WATERS:""Yeah!"Downtrodden"and,"and"scourge."
VANESSA"BROWN:""And"scourge"of"our"society."And"I"said,"I"really"take"issue"with"people"who"describe"
other"folks"like"that."I"said,"Its"one"thing"to"look"at"when"I"look"at"(Inaudible)"to"use"those"terms"but"
for"you"to"use"it"was"extremely"offensive"to"me."
RON"WATERS:""Yeah!"Right."
TYRON"ALI:"Mmm"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Shes"like,"There"are"people"who"just"dont"want"help"and"are"crying"in"their"misery"
and"want"to"stay"in"their"position!"And"I"said,"Margo,"I"dont"agree"with"that."I"dont"think"anybody"
wakes"up"and"says,"I"want"to"be"a"low"life"today."I"want"to"be"a"drug"addict"today."I"want"to"be"a"
nothing."I"want"to"be"a"junkie."Nobody"that"I"know!"Do"you"know"people"like"that?"
RON"WATERS:""Now"I"have"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Because"I"dont"know"anybody"like"that!"I"dont"know."She"says,"Well"I"have"
encountered"people"that"Ive"try"to"help"and"they"just"didnt"want"no"help."I"said,"Maybe"theyre"so"
messed"up"in"their"life"that"stops"them"from"accepting"your"help!"I"said,"Maybe,"you"ever"thought"that"
maybe"they"got"a"bad"hand"and"cant"overcome"it"like"maybe"you"or"I"can?"I"said,"These"Gods"people!"
Youre"a"minister."These"are"Gods"people!"
RON"WATERS:""Yeah."Shes"a"minister?"
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T""57""March"1st,"2011"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Yes!"
RON"WATERS:""Shes"a"minister?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Yes!!"I"said,"These"are"Gods"people"that"youre"talking"about!"
RON"WATERS:""I"never"knew"she"was"a"minister."
VANESSA"BROWN:""I"said,"For"the"love"of"God,"how"can"you"bring"up"a"dialogue"like"that"in"the"company"
of"the"enemy?"
RON"WATERS:""Yes."Yes!"
VANESSA"BROWN:""So"she"said"to"me,"Were"never"going"to"win"if"we"keep"talking"about"it,"that"were"
taking"care"of"the"least"of"these."
WAITRESS:""I"can"get"that.""
RON"WATERS:""Jesus"asked"us"a"question"about"
WAITRESS:""This"is"the"Caesar"with"extra"dressing."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Thank"you,"love."
RON"WATERS:""Jesus"asked"that"question:"What"have"you"done"for"the"least"of"these?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""For"the"least"of"these"So"I"said"
WAITRESS:""I"just"gotta"go"grab"your"rice."Ill"be"right"back,"okay?"
SS02:06:31SS"
VANESSA"BROWN:""So"I"said."So"I"said,"Margo,"its"better"that"you"lose"a"conversation"or"debate,"than"
win"with"him."
RON"WATERS:""Yeah"
VANESSA"BROWN:""I"said,"Sometimes,"its"better"to"lose."I"said,"If"you"think"as"a"party"were"losers"
because"we"protect"the"innocent,"then"theres"something"wrong"with"that,"Margo."So"she"says,"I"dont"
mix"my"politics"with"my"ministry."Ive"served"those"people"those"peoplein"my"ministry"but"when"I"
come"up"here,"this"is"about"politics!"I"said,"I"dont"know"how"you"separate"the"two."
WAITRESS:""Can"I"get"you"guys"anything"else"right"now?"
RON"WATERS:""Can"I"have"another"tea?"
WAITRESS:""Heres"some"extra"hot"water"for"you"and"when"that"runs"out"I"can"fill"it"up"for"ya."
RON"WATERS:""Oh"okay."
47"
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T""57""March"1st,"2011"
WAITRESS:""Just"dont"touch"anything"but"the"handle"because"that"part"gets"really"hot."
RON"WATERS:""Okay,"thank"you.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""You"need"another"tea"bag?"
WAITRESS:""Anything"else"besides"that?"
RON"WATERS:""No,"theres"tea"right"here."Okay."
WAITRESS:""Okay."
VANESSA"BROWN:""So"um,"I"said,"At"this"point"Margo,"I"think"were"going"to"have"to"agree"to"disagree"
RON"WATERS:""Can"you"get"me"silverware?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Oh"heres"yours."I"have"it.""
TYRON"ALI:"I"got"it,"I"got"it."
VANESSA"BROWN:""So"I"says,"We"have"to"agree"to"disagree"at"this"point."I"said,"I"just"wanted"you"to"
know"that"I"would"not"have"spoken"to"any"other"member"but"I"spoke"to"you"out"of"love"as"a"sister."And"I"
just"wanted"you"to"know"how"that"made"me"feel."
RON"WATERS:""Well"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Normally"I"would"not"have"addressed"it"but"because"of"who"you"are"I"will"address"it."
RON"WATERS:""Okay."Well"she"heard"me"when"I"went"cause"I"was"sitting"out"and"I"said,"Scourge?!"You"
know"what,"because"I"remember"when"she"ran"for"election,"some"of"these"people"was"out"there"helping"
her"knock"on"doors"
VANESSA"BROWN:""How"about"I"remember"when"they"said"in"the"newspaper"that"she"had"financial"
problems?"
RON"WATERS:""Yeah!"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Cause"some"people"would"have"called"her"a"scourge.""
RON"WATERS:""Thats"exactly"what"theyd"do"
VANESSA"BROWN:""In"some"peoples"eyes"she"is"a"scourge."I"said"the"same"thing"to"her."I"said,"Some"
people"would"consider"me"if"they"look"at"my"issues."So"how"dare"you?"How"could"you"say"that?"
RON"WATERS:""People"get"brand"new."
VANESSA"BROWN:""So"then"as"Im"finishing"up"with"her,"here"comes"Rep."Thomas"on"that"cane."Young"
lady!"and"he"steps"the"cane"down."I"need"to"talk"with"you!"I"said,"(Gasp),"shes"getting"her"ass"kicked"
every"which"way"With"Greg"yesterday,"me"now,"and"we"aint"even"finished"and"now"here"comes"
48"
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T""57""March"1st,"2011"
Thomas!"So"he"says,"Just"one"moment!"I"understand"that"you"are"no"longer"on"Urban"Affairs."She"says,"
Yeah."He"says,"(Inaudible),"because"you"know"she"lobbied"them"to"get"her"off"cause"she"wanted"off"his"
committee."He"said,"Yeah"that"kinda"makes"sense."So"he"stomped"that"cane"down"again"and"said,"You"
think"that"were"going"to"deal"with"issues"in"Delaware"county?"And"she"goes,"I"just"need"Upper"Darby"
because"that"is"more"suitable"to"my"county."He"says,"Well"we"deal"with"your"issues"in"Urban"Affairs"
and"you"gonna"find"yourself"in"trouble"if"you"keep"separating"yourself"from"Philadelphia."You"better"be"
careful"doing"that!"And"he"slammed"that"cane."So"at"that"point"I"said,"See"you"later!"
TYRON"ALI:"Shell"be"isolated."
RON"WATERS:""Thats"what"shes"gonna"do."
TYRON"ALI:"Shes"going"to"isolate"herself"from"grant"opportunities"and"other"kinds"of"economic"
development.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""So"he"says,"You"keep"separating"yourself"from"Philadelphia"and"see"what"happens"
later."He"let"her"have"it"today.""
RON"WATERS:""Well"she"has"separated"herself"from"Philly."Even"when"she"was"first"
VANESSA"BROWN:""The"first"thing"she"said!"
RON"WATERS:""Even"when"she"was"voting"against"us"on"almost"everything."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Yeah,"(inaudible).""
RON"WATERS:""Yeah,"and"Im"like,"she"cant"she"aint"gonna"win,"they"want"that"seat"back,"trust"me."They"
coming"after"her.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""Yeah."If"she"votes"like"that,"they"have"their"own"(inaudible)."They"dont"need"you"to"
vote."
RON"WATERS:""No,"they"dont"need"her."And"then"they"got"the"people"like"ADTC"to"go"after"and"go"and"
fight"to"get"them"to"support"her."They"will"not"do"it.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""Mm"Hmm."
RON"WATERS:""They"was"like"
VANESSA"BROWN:""And"then"look"at"what"shes"doing"(Inaudible)"
RON"WATERS:""I"know."I"know.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""She"got"more"money"out"of"them"then"we"would"have"ever"gotten.""
WAITRESS:""How"is"everything?"

49"
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"

T""57""March"1st,"2011"
RON"WATERS:""Everythings"ok."(Inaudible)"But"people"who"knew"her,"better"than"I"did,"told"me,"You"
dont"know"her."They"told"me,"You"dont"know"her."They"said,"You"wait."
SS02:11:11"
VANESSA"BROWN:""I"had"to"talk"to"her"about"her"behavior.""
RON"WATERS:""Oh"yea,"I"was"ready"to"say"that"to"someone."Because"when"she"say"scourge,"she"aint"
talkin"about"white"people."
VANESSA"BROWN:""No!"
RON"WATERS:""Know"what"I"mean?"(Inaudible)"I"didnt"get"that."Im"moving"on."But"I"did"my"part."I"
helped"her."I"was"asked"to"help"her."I"met"her."But"then"after"the"way"shes"acting"now,"its"like"she"
acting"like"she"got"it"all"together."Look"around."Live"and"learn."You"know?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""They"messing"with"Michelle."Did"she"tell"you"what"they"did?"
RON"WATERS:""No."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Michelle"went"over"and"all"of"her"staff.""
RON"WATERS:""Shes"got"Daisy?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Well"shes"got"Daisy."Shes"got"a"very"expensive"staff."Shes"got"Daisy,"shes"got"
Carrie"and"shes"got"(?)."Cause"theyve"all"been"with"the"caucus"now"for"over"20"years"a"piece."Each"of"
them!"So"thats"about"60"years"of"experience"she"got."So"with"that,"they"wont"allow"her"to"hire"anybody"
else."
RON"WATERS:""Daisy"alone!"Daisy"makes"more"than"April."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Shes"done."Theyre"like,"Youre"done."You"cant"hire"anybody"else."Youre"over"your"
budget."And"shes"like"(Inaudible)"
RON"WATERS:""No,"but"she"had"to"realize"that"they,"those"people"are"cost"reformers,"they"only,"they"
looking"out"for"Daisy."(Inaudible)""
VANESSA"BROWN:""Well"Michelle"shouldnt"pay"for"it."Thats"not"Michelles"issue.""
RON"WATERS:""Well"somebodys"gotta"pay"for"it."And"ones"those"reports"come"about"how"much"this"
person"makes"and"this"person"
TYRON"ALI:"Its"a"riot."
RON"WATERS:""And"when"people"start"looking"at"what"shes"getting,"ok,"and"you"take"a"look"at"what"
youre"getting."Guess"what?"Youre"gonna"be"the"one"that"has"a"problem."(Inaudible)"I"thinks"Daisy"
makes"more"than"some"members"make."Ok?"
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T""57""March"1st,"2011"
TYRON"ALI:"Freshmen"members"anyway."
RON"WATERS:""Freshmen,"yea"freshmen."Daisy"has"been"here"for"more"than"10"years,"shes"making"a"
hell"of"a"salary."Its"still"your"budget."
VANESSA"BROWN:""(Inaudible)""
TYRON"ALI:"The"person"whos"going"to"suffer"in"that"whole"situation?"Gary."Cause"he"um,"he"made"the"
call"to"one"of"our"guys"about"three"weeks"ago."Were"gonna,"we"might"be"able"to"be"helpful."Heres"the"
problem:"Now,"he"wants"to"run"after"Jewells."
RON"WATERS:""Hmm?"
TYRON"ALI:"He"wants"to"run"after"Jewells."
RON"WATERS:""I"know."
TYRON"ALI:"Hes"like,"Tyron,"Im"moving."I"said,"Gary,"I"love"you"like"a"brother,"but"youve"got"some"
other"folks"who"are"much"more"financially"capable"of"handling"a"campaign"than"you"are."
RON"WATERS:""Right."
TYRON"ALI:"You"know"me,"Ron!""I"dont"pull"any"punches."I"tell"it"like"it"is."You"dont"like"it,"thats"you."
RON"WATERS:""Right."Hes"trying"to"be"ward"leader"too."
TYRON"ALI:"Hes"a"nice"guy!"
RON"WATERS:""Yea."
TYRON"ALI:"You"know?"(Cell"Phone7keeps7ringing.7Does7not7answer)"When"I"call"you"bro,"and"you"take"3S4"
days"to"call"me"back,"thats"what"happens.""
RON"WATERS:""(Laughs)."
TYRON"ALI:"No,"you"pick"up"that"phone"when"I"call"you"man."
RON"WATERS:""Yea."
TYRON"ALI:"If"you"dont"pick"it"up,"I"mean,"youll"never"know"why"Im"calling."
RON"WATERS:""Thats"the"way"it"is."
VANESSA"BROWN:""(Inaudible)"
TYRON"ALI:"The"thing"about"it"is"you"can"have"all"the"friends"you"want,"people"like"to"see"competence."
(VANESSA7BROWN:77and7RON7WATERS:77inaudible)"

51"
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T""57""March"1st,"2011"
WAITRESS:""Do"you"want"more"diet"soda?"
TYRON"ALI:"Yea,"thanks."
WAITRESS:""Youre"welcome."
SS02:16:00SS"
RON"WATERS:""(Oh7the7phone7with7unknown)"No"committee"assignments"are"different."I"dont"know."We"
might"have"to"do"it"again."I"can"get"my"staff"to"do"it"again."All"you"have"to"do"is"send"themAbsolutely."
Ill"tell"you"who"to"send"them"to."Send"them"to"Valerie."She"gets"in"the"office"at"8:00."No,"you"do"it"by"
email?"At"pahouse.org."Shes"the"oneyea."And"the"other,"I"have"to"call"for"committee"assignments,"ok?"
Ok."Yea.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""I"asked"yesterday"to"introduce"my"legislation,"in"urban"affairs."
TYRON"ALI:"Huh?"Are"you"talking"to"me?"What"did"you"say?"Im"sorry."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Yesterday"in"the"House,"I"introduced"legislation."The"legislation"for"the"tax"on"
(Inaudible)"
(RON"WATERS:""continues"telephone"call)."
TYRON"ALI:"Vanessa,"its"important"that"you"hear"the"banks"position."
VANESSA"BROWN:""(Inaudible)"
TYRON"ALI:"Im"also"going"to"finance"your"next"campaign."(Laughs)."
VANESSA"BROWN:""I"gotcha.""
TYRON"ALI:"Who"proposed"that?"Brian?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""No,"this"is"one"Im"proposing."This"one"is"on"the"senior"citizen"housing."Get"their"
health"care"through"AAA,"put"them"in"a"waiver"program"to"protect"their"homes"for"the"families"in"order"
to"compensate"the"state"for"all"its"services"they"receive"and"lets"just"to"say"that"the"house"is"$50,000"or"
less,"that"it"should"be"protected."They"dont"need"to"go"into"the"waiverSS""
RON"WATERS:""Why"dont"you"send"them"all"to"me?"Ill"put"them"up"on"the"internet."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Because"the"program,"the"way"the"program"is"originally"designed"for"people"who"
have"homes"of"$100,000"or"more"who"could"afford"to"pay"for"their"health"care"but"were"relying"on"the"
AAA,"all"those"folks"that"were"moving"into"Pennsylvania"for"the"services,"the"health"services"that"we"
offered"to"seniors."We"have"one"of"the"best"plans"in"the"country,"right,"for"Medicare"and"Medicaid."So,"
the"loophole"is"the"people"who"are"poor"are"getting"their"homes"taken."But"the"reality"of"it"all"is"the"
state"doesnt"even"take"their"home"because"it"cost"too"much"money"to"go"through"the"process."All"the"
liens"are"still"on"the"home"so"they"can"never"do"any"equity,"they"cant"do"anything."Theyre"stuck"in"a"
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T""57""March"1st,"2011"
waiver"program"and"the"home"just"sits"there"with"no"title"when"the"person"dies."No"one"in"the"family"
can"do"anything"with"the"house"because"the"state"is"claiming"ownership"and"never"taking"it."So"all"these"
boarded"houses"are"sitting"around"with"$150,000"
RON"WATERS:""What"are"you"talking"about?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""The"waiver"program"that"your"mom"waswhen"they"was"trying"to"get"your"moms"
house."
RON"WATERS:""Oh,"yea."SpinSdown."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Right."
RON"WATERS:""Its"a"terrible"thing"they"do,"taking"peoples"property."I"mean"taking"
TYRON"ALI:"Dont"look"at"me"and"laugh."You"know"what"Im"going"to"say."
RON"WATERS:""I"know,"but"theyre"doing"that."And"they"want"to"get"my"mom"to"sign"for"that."We"had"a"
happy"hour"there"and"me"and"my"sister"had"an"argument"over"it."I"know"now"shell"probably"say"I"told"
her"one"thing."I"cant"believe"the"voicemail"about"my"office"pool.""
TYRON"ALI:"Which"one?"Up"here"in"Harrisburg"or"home?"
RON"WATERS:""In"Philly."
TYRON"ALI:"Oh."
RON"WATERS:""I"dont"remember"my"staff"(Inaudible)"because"this"is"ridiculous."
TYRON"ALI:"Whos"that"in"charge"of"that?"Is"that"YaSya?"
RON"WATERS:""Mm"Mm."
TYRON"ALI:"Oh."You"still"got"him"with"you?"
RON"WATERS:""Yea."We"went"to"the"representative"yesterday,"the"CCPD"yesterday"had"this"event"
dealing"with"exSoffenders."
TYRON"ALI:"Oh"good."Every"time"I"talk"about"that"brother"I"laugh."I"have"to."
RON"WATERS:""Who?"YaSYa?"
TYRON"ALI:"Two"guns,"my"man."Im"telling"you."Its"terrible."
RON"WATERS:""Hes"loaded."
TYRON"ALI:"I"know!"Hes"got"a"permit."Thats"why,"when"she"says,"Ty,"you"so"stupid."I"just"laugh."
(Laughs)"
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T""57""March"1st,"2011"
RON"WATERS:""Im"finished."
VANESSA"BROWN:""They"had"really"good"news."
TYRON"ALI:"Back"in"the"day"Vanessa."(Laughs)"
VANESSA"BROWN:""(Inaudible)"
RON"WATERS:""(Inaudible)"
TYRON"ALI:"How"did"that"work"out"with"Brandon?"Did"you"get"that"resolved"already?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Yea,"they"gave"him"a"suspension."
TYRON"ALI:"Oh"it"was"him?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""They"figured"out"they"didnt"want"me"to"tell"because"it"was"a"HEPA"violation."
RON"WATERS:""(On7the7phone)"Was"Valerie"in"today?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Cause"he"would"fight"for"him."
TYRON"ALI:"Oh.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""Oh"theyre"giving"him"a"fourSday"suspension."He"dont"need"anything"else."
(Inaudible)"
RON"WATERS:""100"black,"or"black"100"I"believe"its"called"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Oh"you"want"to"put"the"ad"out"for"that?"
RON"WATERS:""My"committee"assignments"came."And"they"were"listed"on"the"web."Im"back"on"
judiciary."
VANESSA"BROWN:""
RON"WATERS:""They"told"me"during"the"services"Im"happy"to"be"back"on"judiciary,"yea."
VANESSA"BROWN:""You"didnt"like"it?"
RON"WATERS:""She"need"that"ad"done"by"8:00,"I"mean"10."
TYRON"ALI:"You"know"what,"my"sisters"birthday"was"actually"four"days"ago."And"the"cake"was"
spectacular."
VANESSA"BROWN:"""Where"did"you"go?"
TYRON"ALI:"Miel.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""Wheres"that?"
54"
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T""57""March"1st,"2011"
TYRON"ALI:"Its"um,"its"on"Sansom"Street."Its"downtown."But"the"owner,"the"original"owner"is"one"of"my"
really"good"friends."And"even"the"family"that"owns"it"now,"were"very"close"to"them"because"they"did"my"
wedding"cake,"but"boy,"I"have"to"bring"you"one"of"those."
VANESSA"BROWN:""What"kind"of"cake"is"it?"
TYRON"ALI:"Its"a"strawberry"shortcake"for"her,"but"I"want"to"bring"you"one"of"their"crme"brulee.""It"is"
spectacular."They"have"a"chocolate"and"a"vanilla"bean."Really,"really"good"stuff."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Okay."
TYRON"ALI:"Theyve"won"a"lot"of"competitions."
VANESSA"BROWN:""(Inaudible)"
TYRON"ALI:"Im"gonna"use"that,"Its"not"a"lot,"but"its"got"to"be"correct."(Laughs).""
RON"WATERS:""Hey,"look."You"have"to"make"things"very"simple"when"youre"talking"to"people"man.""
Because"people"make"it"complicated."Im"like,"its"not"a"lot,"just"do"it"right."Its"not"complicated."I"dont"
want"to"hear"about"it"was"difficult"to"do."Cause"its"not"difficult."
TYRON"ALI:"Somebody"asked"me"the"other"day"like,"Who"do"you"think"is"a"good"process"manager"as"it"
goes"to"relationship"manager"of"the"house?"I"said,"Well"look"at"the"chair"of"the"black"caucus"now."I"
mean"Thaddeus"is"more"of"a"relationship"kind"of"guy,"hes"not"process"driven."You,"because"of"your"
background,"youre"process"driven."
RON"WATERS:""You"better"learn"that"if"you"work"for"the"parking"authority!"
TYRON"ALI:"(Laughs)"Its"like"the"parking"authority!"Thats"what"I"was"going"to"say!"You"took"the"words"
right"out"of"my"mouth!"He"was"like,"How"do"you"know"that?"I"said,"Because"Ron"and"I"have"been"
friends"for"years!"I"know"what"Im"talking"about."
RON"WATERS:""You"better"believe"it."
TYRON"ALI:"Hes"a"very"processSdriven"guy"so"if"you"give"him"something,"make"sure"its"right."You"know?"
RON"WATERS:""You"had"to"be"clever"and"shrewd"on"the"street"man."You"write"a"ticket,"you"dont"know"
who"its"going"to."Politician,"criminal,"(Inaudible)""
TYRON"ALI:"Well"when"we"meet"with"Jim,"Tuesdayare"you"up"here"Tuesday?"
RON"WATERS:""Mm"Hmm."
TYRON"ALI:"Ill"come"up"here"so"you"and"I,"we"can"sit"down."Because"I"want"to"hear"what"they"have"to"
say."(Laughing)"
RON"WATERS:""Yea."Cause"the"neighborhoods"going"to"fight"it."Ladys"already"got"a"petition"drawn"up,"
shes"going"to"fight"it."
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T""57""March"1st,"2011"
TYRON"ALI:"I,"I"told"them"what"to"do."I"said"the"first"thing"you"gotta"do"is"stop"thinking"that"theres"only"
one"game"in"town."Thats"number"one!"
RON"WATERS:""Yea!"All"they"gotta"do"is"go"to"(Inaudible)."
TYRON"ALI:"Two,"cause"see"thats"the"problem."
RON"WATERS:""Hm?"
TYRON"ALI:"Thats"the"problem."Cause,"you"know,"Michael"Carr"being"there."You"know"what"I"mean?"You"
know,"all"the"usual"suspects.""
RON"WATERS:""Yea.""
TYRON"ALI:"My"thing"is,"look,"if"you"want"to"come"talk"to"one"of"our"guys,"you"gotta"come"talk"to"me,"
bro."I"dont"care"who"you"are."You"could"be"the"president,"you"come"talk"to"me"alright?"
RON"WATERS:""Mm"Hmm."
TYRON"ALI:"(Laughs)"He"said,"Tyron"are"you"serious?"I"said,"No,"Im"not"serious."Im"Tyron"Ali."Nice"to"
meet"you."
RON"WATERS:""So,"let"me"tell"you."As"long"as"I"got"this"term"to"serve"as"the"Black"Caucus"chairman,"the"
one"thing"I"want"to"establish"is"that"we"are"a"force"to"be"reckoned"with,"we"are"substantive,"and"I"want"
to"bring"us"all"together."But"right"now,"we"dont"have"everybody."Because"our"people"fighting."
TYRON"ALI:"Well"I"know"that"Angels"just"dying"for"you"to"call"him."(Laughs)"
RON"WATERS:""To"do"what?"
TYRON"ALI:"Just"kidding!"(Laughing)"
RON"WATERS:""Call"him?"
TYRON"ALI:"No."Dont"call"him."Dont"call"him."
RON"WATERS:""That"guy,"I"dont"even"respond"to"him"man."That"gives"him"somethingyou"know"how"
they"say,"dont"even"dignify"him"with"a"response."You"know"what"Im"saying?"He"aint"that"important"to"
me"man."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Mm"Hmm."
TYRON"ALI:"The"problem"is"I"guess"he"hasnt"gotten"to"that"place"intellectually,"where"if"youre"not"black"
you"are"white"and"if"you"are"not"white"you"are"black.""
RON"WATERS:""Well"
VANESSA"BROWN:""He"doesnt"know"who"he"is." "
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T""57""March"1st,"2011"
TYRON"ALI:"I"tried"to"explain"to"him"that,"you"know,"I"told"him"that"if"you"identify"with"being"
Puertoriqueno,"you"should"know"that"the"Taino"and"the"Naino"Indians"were"not"Indians"at"all."They"were"
the"indigene"and"where"did"they"come"from?"You"know,"when"you"dont"know"your"history,"brother,"
dont"come"talking"to"me"because"I"know"mine."
RON"WATERS:""Yea."I"dont"think"he"cares."
TYRON"ALI:"You"hit"it"on"the"head."He"does"not"care."
WAITRESS:""Are"you"finished"with"your"plate?"
TYRON"ALI:"Yes,"I"am."Thank"you"
RON"WATERS:""(Inaudible)."
TYRON"ALI:"Of"course,"people"from"Spain"that"say"Im"European."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Yea,"like"people"from"Cuba."They"dont"say"
TYRON"ALI:"Where?"Cuba?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Yea"they"dont"think"that"theyrethey"think"theyre"white."
TYRON"ALI:"Some"of"them."Some"folks"from"the"DR,"they"think"that"theyre"white.""
RON"WATERS:""Yea,"but"somebody,"you"know"what"though,"thats"somebody"who"had."Its"funny,"
yesterday"somebody"said,"Is"he"Cuban?"
TYRON"ALI:"Me?"
RON"WATERS:""No,"no."
TYRON"ALI:"Oh,"Cruz?"
RON"WATERS:""I"said,"No,"hes"Puerto"Rican."But"hes"not,"I"bet"you"in"the"census"report"he"probably"
puts"down,"when"they"ask"him"for"his"nationality,"I"bet"he"puts"down"white."
TYRON"ALI:"He"just"puts"that"C"for"Caucasian.""
(Laughing)"
RON"WATERS:""I"dont"want"to"waste"no"time"talking"about"that"guy."
TYRON"ALI:"But"it"is"entertaining."
RON"WATERS:""Yea"Yea"
TYRON"ALI:"You"gotta"talk"about"somebody."Come"on"now."

57"
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T""57""March"1st,"2011"
(Laughing)"
RON"WATERS:""He"was"a"pretty"decent,"there"was"a"guy"who"I"took"out"who"was"a"pretty"decent"guy"
named"Ben"Ramos."
TYRON"ALI:"Juans"brother"right?"
RON"WATERS:""I"dont"think"it"was"Juans"brother"or"not.""
TYRON"ALI:"Pedro,"Ben"and"Juan."
RON"WATERS:""They"all"brothers?"Ok."
TYRON"ALI:"Former"city"solicitor."
RON"WATERS:""Right."
TYRON"ALI:"Yea."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Angels"so"funny,"he"says,"Hes"not"one"of"us!"
TYRON"ALI:"Who"said"that?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Angel."
RON"WATERS:""Oh."Yea."
VANESSA"BROWN:""He"says,"Ha"hes"not"one"of"us!"
RON"WATERS:""Yea."He"dont"like"him."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Uh"huh."
RON"WATERS:""I"like"Angel."I"saw"Angel"go"down"with"us."
VANESSA"BROWN:""He"fought"for"me"for"my"campaign."
RON"WATERS:""He"worked"with"you?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""He"spoke"for"me"at"the"gay"and"lesbian"community"event."
TYRON"ALI:"LGBT?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Yea,"cause"I"couldnt"make"it."They"had"me"go"somewhere"in"the"neighborhood"and"
Angel"said,"I"will"represent"you"down"there.""He"was"when"he"spoke"for"me"at"my"reSelection"
campaign."
TYRON"ALI:"Wait"the"one"of"16th"and,"what"is"it"13th"and"Race"or"13th"and"
VANESSA"BROWN:""William"Vey?"No,"this"was"
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T""57""March"1st,"2011"
TYRON"ALI:"The"girl"who"was"the"director"down"there,"those"was"my"people."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Yea"thats"where"it"was!"
TYRON"ALI:"Susan"Higgenbotham."Yea."Janie"sent"me"down"there"to"talk"to"her"cause"I"knew"theyre"your"
folks."I"said,"Alright,"Ill"talk"to"her"for"you."
SS02:30:11SS"
RON"WATERS:""Let"me"tell"you"who"I"saw"yesterday."Whos"that"person"running"against"Danny?"Who"was"
telling"me"that?"If"she"keeps"doing"this"prison"shit"shes"going"to"have"problems."
TYRON"ALI:"What"happened?"What"happened?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Not"to"the"second,"the"next"one."
RON"WATERS:""If"shes"behind"this"other"prison"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Theyre"not"behind"it."
RON"WATERS:""Cause"she"already"lost"the"Southwest"part"of"the"city."
TYRON"ALI:"I"told"her"what"was"going"on!"
RON"WATERS:""Now"if"she"calls"me"and"to"handle"it"and"I"see"she"doing"the"same"shit,"she"gonna"have"a"
problem."But"the"only,"maybe"she"wont"because"she"dont"have"a"candidate"running"against"her.""
TYRON"ALI:"Oh"yes"she"does."
RON"WATERS:""(Inaudible)"
TYRON"ALI:"Yea"but"you"dont"have"to"say"that,"Ron."Becausehuh?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Shes"doing"good"social"work."
RON"WATERS:""Yes"she"is."
TYRON"ALI:"Can"I"tell"you"something?"
RON"WATERS:""Whats"that?"
TYRON"ALI:"Shes"getting"some"help."
RON"WATERS:""Huh?"Shes"getting"some"help?"Oh."
TYRON"ALI:"(Laughs)."Shes"getting"some"help.""
RON"WATERS:""Them"people"right"there."She"needs"to"capitalize"on"that,"cause"she"(inaudible)"if"shes"
willing.""
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T""57""March"1st,"2011"
TYRON"ALI:"Well,"they"dont"like"her"politics."They"like"the"fact"that"she"was"a"school"teacher.""
RON"WATERS:""Yea."
TYRON"ALI:"That"really"hits"home."
RON"WATERS:""Yea.""
TYRON"ALI:"You"know?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""(Inaudible)"
TYRON"ALI:"And"I"said"to"Mike,"I"talked"to"him"last"week,"I"said,"Listen,"man."Uh"at"some"point"we"gotta"
sit"down"and"figure"out"whats"what"because"your"man"Katz"aint"in"the"race."And"Knotts"is"out."And"you"
know"we"cant"deal"with"your"boy."So"what"are"we"going"to"do?""
RON"WATERS:""Mandatory?"
TYRON"ALI:"mm"Hmm."
RON"WATERS:""The"only"one"running"for"Mayor"is"Milton"Street."
TYRON"ALI:"Can"I"tell"you"something?"The"boy"from"North"Philly"is"helping"them"though."(Inaudible)"
RON"WATERS:""Oh"Im"sure"he"is."
TYRON"ALI:"She"just"looks"up"at"me"and"shakes"her"head"like,"I"cant"believe"he"just"said"that."
(Laughing)"
RON"WATERS:""(Inaudible)"
TYRON"ALI:"I"like"Milton,"man."I"like"his"politics."
VANESSA"BROWN:""(Laughs)"Behind"bars?"Which"side"of"the"bar"are"you"talking"about?"
RON"WATERS:""He"has"small"candidate."
TYRON"ALI:"Im"going"to"tell"you"something."He"makes"a"good"point."
RON"WATERS:""Ok.""
TYRON"ALI:"People"who"have"been"incarcerated,"nonSviolent"offenders,"and"a"lot"of"folks"that"need"
addiction"therapy,"are"serving"out"sentences"for"no"really"good"reason."
VANESSA"BROWN:""They"should"have"been"in"the"diversionary"program."
RON"WATERS:""Right."
TYRON"ALI:"So"he"makes"a"good"point."Heres"the"thing:"Hes"not"the"right"vehicle"for"that"message."
60"
"

T""57""March"1st,"2011"
VANESSA"BROWN:""(Laughs)"right."He"said,"It"takes"one"to"know"one."
RON"WATERS:""Right."
TYRON"ALI:"Ya"know?"
RON"WATERS:""Who"said"that?"Whos"saying"that?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Milton!"
TYRON"ALI:"Yea!"
VANESSA"BROWN:""He"said,"Takes"one"to"know"one."Yea!"
RON"WATERS:""Milton"is"trying"to,"matter"of"fact,"trying"to"get"all"the"exSoffenders"in"the"city"to"vote"for"
him."
TYRON"ALI:"300,000"
RON"WATERS:""That"would"be"about"300,000"people."
TYRON"ALI:"Mm"Hmm."And"unfortunately"
RON"WATERS:""And"they"got"families"too."
TYRON"ALI:"Can"I"just"say"this"to"you?"Im"saying"this"to"you"here."Now,"there"is"a"young"white"lady,"
about"27"yearsSold."Very"attractive"
RON"WATERS:""What"is"she"doing"right"now?"I"like"her"already."
(Laughing)"
TYRON"ALI:"She"did"about"three"years"for"fraud.""
RON"WATERS:""Ok."
TYRON"ALI:"But"she"has"it"in"her"head"that"she"wants"to"be"helpful."You"know?"She"wants"to"be"helpful."
RON"WATERS:""Ok."
TYRON"ALI:"(Laughing)"Im"having"a"hard"time"talking"about"this"(Laughing)""
(Laughing)"
RON"WATERS:""She"did"three"years?"Milton"did"eight"years!"And"hes"not"attractive!"
(Laughing)"
TYRON"ALI:"She"said,"Ty,"I"just"need"to"work"on"somebodys"campaign"to"get"my"issues"heard."
(Laughing)"
61"
"

T""57""March"1st,"2011"
RON"WATERS:""We"ought"to"get"her"on"our"staff,"for"real."Cause"we"on"that"stuff.""
WAITRESS:""Are"you"finished"with"your"plates?"
TYRON"ALI:"She"wont"move"from"where"she"is."Shes"in"New"York."
WAITRESS:""Any"dessert"or"coffee"for"you?"
RON"WATERS:""She"lives"in"New"York?"
TYRON"ALI:"Yes."Yes."Shes"in"New"York."
WAITRESS:""Dessert"and"coffee"or?"
TYRON"ALI:"Do"you"have"espresso"or"cappuccino?"
WAITRESS:""Yes."
TYRON"ALI:"Which"one"do"you"have?"
WAITRESS:""Both."
TYRON"ALI:"Oh!"Can"I"have"a"cappuccino?"
VANESSA"BROWN:""Im"fine."What"desserts"do"you"have?"
WAITRESS:""I"can"bring"out"the"dessert"tray"for"you."
RON"WATERS:""But"you"know"though,"that"issue,"they"did"a"big"article,"somebody"showed"me"today,"
Andy"Hoover,"you"know"from"the"ACLU,"they"did"like"a"section."You"know"how"they"got"a"different"
section"A,"section"B,"they"did"a"whole"section"about"whats"wrong"with"the"criminal"justice"system"in"our"
state."
VANESSA"BROWN:""Who?"The"Inquirer?"
RON"WATERS:""No,"it"wasnt"the"Inquirer."I"think"it"was"the"Patriot"News."Its"huge!"They"did"a,"like"an"inS
depth"study."
TYRON"ALI:"I"dont"trust"that"newspaper."
RON"WATERS:""Yea."But"it"might"not"be"them."Cause"he"showed"it"to"me."I"dont"know,"for"some"reason"
might"have"been"another"major"newspaper.""
VANESSA"BROWN:""It"doesnt"sound"like"something"they"would"cover."
RON"WATERS:""Yea,"yea."It"doesnt."But