Committee On Un-American Activities4-1956

COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6875
with respect to their promotions of peace. We see here one of the

promoters of peace is Grace Partridge, executive secretary of the
Northern Cahfornia Committee for Protection of Foreign Bom in
San Francisco.
There is an article here telling all about the fact that they know
—
what is going on in the Soviet Union that they have facts available
for people, understanding, friendship, trade and peace.
Please locJk at this document and tell this Committee on Un-Ameri-
can Activities while you arc under oath whether or not your promo-
tion of peace that you spoke about is the promotional activities evi-
denced in that booklet.
(Document retained in Committee files.)
(The witness examines document and confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Partridge. I refuse to answer on the' grounds of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Partridge, we want to invite your attention to a
call to a conference, signed by Grace Partridge, executive secretary of
the Northern California Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
The call to the conference seriously condemns J. Edgar Hoover
because of use of what is called here "lying stool pigeons." It seriously
attacks the movement of this Government to deport a number of
Communists. It calls for the repeal of the Walter-McCarran law.
It condemns the frameup by our Government of progressive Ameri-
cans and trade unionists.
Will you look at this document and tell us whether or not it is a
stool pigeon document when it bears your signature as the executive
secretary of the Northern California Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born who is doing all these things.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 566,'' see appendix, p. 8115.)
Mrs. Partridge. I don't really understand what you want what —
you ask.
Mr. Arexs. I just want you to tell us. Did you sign that document?
Are you the promoter of that conference?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Partridge. Then I refuse to answer on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Velde. What is the date of that document?
Mr. Arens. It is an
Mr. Velde. I asked you what the date of the document is.
Mrs. Partridge. He will tell you.
Mr. Arens. It is an undated document.
Mr. Velde. When was the meeting called for then ?
Mr. Arens. It makes reference to a conference which, according to
the document, is to bo held in San Francisco March 5. The year does
not appear.
Mr. Velde. You could tell us that couldn't you ?
;
Mr. SciiERER. She could, but she won't.

Mr. Velde. Can you tell us the date of the proposed meeting?
Mrs. Partridge. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
: —
6876 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. Now we have a final document which we would like to

invite toyour attention. It is the Sixth iVnnual Conference To Repeal
the Walter-McCarran Law and Defend Its Victims.
We have displayed this document to a number of people in the
course of the several cities in which we have been, a number of people
who were participants, and we want to give you an opportunity to
look at it.
This sixth annual conference, according to this document, has as

one of the leaders, Grace Partridge, executive secretary of the North-
ern California Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, a fraternal
delegate.
Kindly look at this document and tell us whether or not you were
participant or leader in that sixth annual conference.
tlie
(See exhibit No. 102ti, appendix, p. 7273.)
Mrs. Partridge. The same answer on the gromids of the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that will con-
clude the staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Velde. No questions.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Scherer?
Mr. Scherer. I don't believe, Counsel, you asked the witness
whether at this moment she is a member of the Communist Party.
Are you a member of the Communist Party today, madam ?
Mrs. Partridge. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Scherer. I have no further questions.
Mr. Doyle. I notice this exhibit, referring to a conference Saturday,
March 5, without any year indicated, also includes this statement,
apparently over the signature of Grace Partridge, executive secre-
tary, the witness before us. This is a mimeographed copy apparently
of the original signature, if she signed the original. This is what it
says, among other things
Abnei- Green from New York will be present to report on national develop-
ments in the struggles to defend the rights of foreign-born Americans.
Who, according to our record, was Abner Green, Mr. Scherer?
Mr. Scherer. One of the most notorious Communists in the world.
And also in this same document signed by the witness she attacks
the United States for its attempt to deport Harry Bridges.
Mr. Doyle. I see on these two checks which have been presented,
drawn on the Bank of America, apparently by the Northern Califor-
nia Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, 948 Market St., Room
417, San Francisco, one being dated October 5, 1956, one of the signa-
tures appears to be Grace Partridge, and the other one, dated later,
also appears to be signed by Grace Partridge.
I call attention of the committee to this fact, that apparently, there-
fore, the same procedure is followed here by this Northern Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born that was followed in Los Angeles
that the sponsors of that committee, at that date were employing and
paying out of funds, which they received from the public by way of
—
contribution for the protection of foreign born salaries to an execu-
tive secretary or chairman who, as far as the record goes, was a Com-
munist, a member of the Communist Party. I think that is clearly
what the record shows.
: ?
So I just wish to state to the sponsors of the committee in San

Francisco, the same as I did in Los Angeles, that the contributing San
Francisco and Bay area public to the Xorthern California Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born should know that when they con-
tribute money to this committee that the person who controls the bank
itccount of the organization is identified before this committee, and
even in a public record at the State capitol, as a member of the State
Committee of the Communist Party. If that is the way they want
their money to be spent they can do it with their eyes open.
But the Communist Party here, the same as it was in Los Angeles,
is apparently controlling the finances and policy of the American Com-
mittee for Foreign Born in northern California.
Mr. ScHERER. It is not only true of Iôs Angeles it is generally true
;
of these committees throughout tlie United States.

Mr. Doyle. That is right.
Let's see who the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born which has been referred to by counsel.
is,
I have here the Guide to Subversive Organizations and Publica-

tions, published by the 82d Congress, House Document 137, Page 13
thereof. And this is the parent committee, as I understand it, of the
Northern California Committee for Protection of Foreign Born and
also the Southern California Committee for Protection of Foreign
Jôrn or alleged protection of the foreign born.
Plere is what 1 read
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
1. Cited as subversive and Communist. (Attorney General Tom Clark, letters
to Loyalty Review Board, released June 1, 1948, and September 21, 1948.)
2. "One of the oldest auxiliaries of the Communist Party in the United States."
(Special Committee on Un-American Activities, Report, March 29, 1944, p. 155;
also cited in Report, June 25, 1942, p. 1.3.)
3. "Among the Communist-front organizations for racial agitation" which also
serve as "money-collecting media" and "as special political organizing centers for
the racial minority they pretend to champion." "Works closely witli the Inter-
national Labor Defense, legal arm of the Communist Party, in defense of foreign-
born Communists and sympathizers." (California Committee on Un-American
Activities, Reports, 1947, p. 45; 1948, p. 113.)
So again we discover that when Congress is petitioned, if it is, by

either the Nortliern or Southern California Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born in those names it is, in fact, being petitioned secretly
and in undisclosed manner and method by the Communist Party in
the State of California, and not by anyone else, but by the Commies
in California.
Again I wish to say that Congress must know certainly, for the
protection of the American public, whose petitions they are listening
to and whose petitions are being acted upon.
We do not object to the Communist Party in California or any
place else petitioning Congress, but we do feel that in the interest of
fair, intelligent legislation we are entitled to know in Congress who
it is we are dealing with at all times. And that is one purpose of
this hearing.
Mr. Leonard. Mrs. Partridge is excused
Mr. Doyle. Yes.
Mr. Leonard. Thank you.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Louis Goldblatt.
:
Kindly remain standing while the chairman administers an oath

to you.
Mr. Doyle. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. GoLDULATT. 1 do.
TESTIMONY OF LOUIS GOLDBLATT. ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,

GEOEGE R. ANDEKSEN
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence and occupa-
tion.
Mr. GoLDBLATT. Myname is Louis Goldblatt. I live in Mill Valley.
1 am secretary treasurer of the International Longshoremen's and
"Warehousemen's Union.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today, Mr. Goldblatt, in response to
a subpena which was sei^'ed upon you by the House Committee on
Un-American Activities?
Mr.Goldblatt. That is right.
Mr.Arens. And j'ou are represented by counsel ?
Mr.Goldblatt. I am.
Mr.Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself?
Mr.Andersen. My name is George R. Andersen.
Mr.Arens. Mr. Goldblatt, have you ever been known by any name
other than the name Louis Goldblatt ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Goldblatt. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
accorded me by the fifth amedment.
Mr. Akens. Mr, Goldblatt, I want to read you a little testimony that
vras given under oath before the House Committee on Un-American
Activities by a man by the name of Louis Rosser, who laid his liberty
on the line December 1, 1953. Here is the testimony, or an excerpt
of the testimony
A. Well, in my work in tlie Youn.2: Communist League during this period we
followed the lines laid down by the Communist Party because the Communist
Party directed the Young Communist League, and, besides distributing the Why
Communism? we put out a pamphlet, the State committee of the Young Com-
munist League, called Young Communists in Action, and this pamphlet
Q. When was this?
A. This was in 1934. This pamphlet was written by a very intelligent, educated
young Communist named Lew Miller.
Q. Was that Lewis, L-e-w-i-s?
A. Yes, Lewis Miller. That was his party and Young Communist League name.
His real name is Louis Goldblatt. He is now the secretary-treasurer of the
International Longshoremen's and Warehousemen's Union.
Mr. Arens. Was Mr. Louis Ros.ser lying or was he telling the truth
with respect to yourself in this sworn testimony before the House
Committee on Un-American Activities in 1953?
Mr. Andersen. I>/et me see the wliole statement, will you.
(Docmnent handed to counsel for the witness.)
Mr. Arens. Counsel, page 3094, the bottom of the page.
Mr. Andersen. "Where does the testimony begin?
Mr. Arens. The bottom of the page where 3'our finger is.
Mr. Andersen. Is that where it begins ?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6S79
Mr. Arens. That is where tlie allusion begins with reference to Mr.
Goldblatt.
(The witness examines document and confers with his couiiseh)
Mr. Goldblatt. What was the question?
Mr. Arexs. Read the question back, please, to the witness.
(The pending question was read b}- the reporter.)
Mr. Goldblatt. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
provided by the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Louis Rosser or have you ever known
him?
Mr. Goldblatt. Same answer.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been known by the name of Lew Miller ?
Mr. Arens. Xow I want to display to you a little book written b\^
yourself under the name of Lewis Miller
Mr. Goldblatt. I don't like the presumptions here. Don't you make
any statement along that line. I have given 3ôu an answer to your
question.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, this record reflects that this ruan has
been identified under oath
Mr. Goldblait^. But you are making certain statements now that I
don't like one damn bit.
Arens. This man has been identified under oath
Mr.
Scherer. I think the witness should be admonished
Mr.
Goldblatt. Why don't you admonish your counsel first ?
Mr.
Doyle. Just a minute, Mr. Goldblatt. I admonish you to ob-
Mr.
serve the rules of the committee and decorum of the committee and an-
swer the questions when you are asked them.
Mr. Scherer. I think the record should disclose that the witness
yelled in a loud contemptuous voice.
Mr. Goldblatt. I would like to ask that the record also show that
this counsel is behaving himself in a contemptible manner.
Mr. Doyle. The record will not show anything of the kind because
he hasn't been. He is just
Mr. Goldblatt. That is merely your conclusion, Mr. Congressman.
My rights are as good as yours around here.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest, for the attention
of the committee, that a man has identified this witness under oath
as Lewis Miller.
am now displaying to this witness a booklet written by
I
Mr. Goldblatt. Don't throw anything at me. If you want to
throw something at me, baud it.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Chairman, I want to again display to this
witness a booklet written by him Young Communists in Action. And
:
I want to invite his attention to certain language. "Young Commu-

nists in Action, compiled by Lewis Miller."
:
( Document marked "Exhibit Xo. 567," see appendix, pp. 8116-8132.)
I want you to read certain excerpts from this booklet, aud see if this
witness will be good enougli to confirm for the conmiittee his author-
ship.
: — — : : — : :
6880 COMMTJNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens (reading) :
Today the Soviet Union stands out lilie a beacon light in a world of chaos
and crisis. It is the only country in the world where the future holds promise
for the youth. * * * Unemployment and starvation do not exist, and cannot
exist in the Soviet Union.
* * * we in the United States, under the leadership of the
Communist Party
and the Young Communist League [shall] overthrow capitalism and build a
workers' and farmers' government A SOVIET AMERICA !" —
Mr. Witness, did you write these words I just read ?
Mr. GoLDBLATT. I decline to answer under the grounds accorded me
under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now I would like to read still another little excerpt
from page 6 of this booklet.
Mr. Doyle. What 3êar was that written, please ?
Mr. Arens. Could you tell us what year you wrote that booklet,
please, Mr. Witness ? You have the original booklet there.
(Document handed to the witness.)
Mr. Arens. Now I want to again invite your attention to a little
excerpt on page 6 of this booklet written by you
* * * it is necessary to explain the nature of capitalist governments. Many
workers are under the illusion that the present government is their government.
Exactly the opposite is true.
I want to direct your attention to a little excerpt on page 7

The workingclass must, therefore, form its own political party for the purpose
of destroying the capitalist state and setting up in its place a workers' and farm-
ers' government.
Then I want to invite your attention to a little excerpt beginning on

page 8
The Young Communist League is a political organization. It is an organization
*
that trains the working class and student youth for struggle. * *
The Young Communist League is part of the Communist movement as a whole.
those words, please, Mr. Goldblatt?
Did you write
Goldblatt. Same answer.
INIr,
Mr. Arens. Now on page 9 we see, among other language, the fol-
lowing :
Also, that its main job

that is, the Young Communist League's main job
is to win the masses of youth to the leadership of the Communist Party in the
struggle to overthrow capitalism and set up a workers' and farmers' govern-
ment.
Did you write those words, Mr. Goldblatt?
Mr. Goldblatt. Same answer,
Mr. Arens. Now we see here the reference to still further language
In consequence, they are making every effort to overcome their individual
differences In order to launch a combined attack against the workers' father-
land.
This is with reference to the capitalistic countries.

We must explain to the workers the peace policy of the Soviet Union * * *. The
U. S. S. R. is not interested in securing colonies or conquering foreign markets.
Now I would like to invite your attention to a little excerpt on page
12 of this booklet written by you
In this light we
:
Mr. GoLDBLATT. I liave told you before, Mr. Counsel, I don't lilco
those assumptions.
Mr. Arens. Then deny it while you are under oath. Did you write
this booklet ?
Mr. GoLDBLATT. You have had an answer to your questions. Your

assumptions here are just cheap publicity plays on your part. You
are a little two-bit publicity hound. That's all you are.
Mr. Akexs. "\Ye are used to this sort of thing. We liave been up
a<jainst fellows so touo;h they make you look like a creampuff.
Mr. GoLDBLATT. Aud we have been up against characters like you
before, and we have taken good care of them.
Mr. DoTLE. I am glad there aren't many characters like you in the
country writing that sort of stuff, attacking the constitutional form of
government.
Mr. GoLDBLATT. Mr. Doyle, you are doing the same thing as your
counsel is doing. You are making certain assumptions. You have
got no riglit to do so. There happens to be a
iVIr. Yelde. I think our security with the position he holds in the
union •
Mr. Akexs. I would like to invite your attention to some more

lauguage in this.
Mr. Andersen. When three of you talk at one time I can only listen
to one. I suggest we stop and start over.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, you should be admonished; your sole and ex-
clusive prerogative is to advise your witness.
Mr. Andersen. I have to listen to it.
In this light we can understand how the Soviet peace policy is a revolutionary
—
international policy and can see the significance of the slogan, "Defend the
Soviet Union."
Here is a little excerpt I would like to invite your attention to,

particularly in view of the military action of the Soviet Union in
the course of the last few weeks
Only through militant struggle can we prevent the introduction of fascism.
The Young Communist League drill and defense squads have been formed to
help tight this menace. The defense squads are to protect meetings and
demonstrations.
Mr. Andersen. What page are you reading from ?
Mr. Arens. I am reading from page 12 of the work of this witness..
The defense squads are to protect meetings and demonstrations, prevent the
raiding of workers' clubs and headcjuarters by Fascist gangs, and to organize
the \v<)]kers for self-defense. We must be aleit to sense, report, and conduct
active campaigns against every Fascist step, and give our full sii[)p(irt to buildinsr
the American League Against War and Fascism.
Did you write those words, jjlease, Mr. Goldblatt ?
Mr. GoLDBLA'JT. Same answer. And I would like to ask that bothi
counsel and Congressman Doyle accord me the presum])tion of in-
nocence of any individual who desires to take the iifth amendment,,
and not to reach ai'bitrary conclusions in your own minds.
Mr. Arkns. Tlien why don't you, while you are under oath, deny-
that you are the author of this booklet? We have testimonv here
by a man under oath Avho i)uts his liberty on the line that you did write:
it and that you were known as Lew Miller.
:
Mr. G(tLi)i'.LAiT. Tl)at is a —paid professional perjurers of govern-

ment never put their liberty on tlie line when they testify.
Mr. SciiERER. Just a minute. Do you say that Rosser perjured him-
self? Did you say that?
Mr. GoLDBLAiT. I made a certain statement because I have seen
dozens of perjurors used against the president of this union, used
against us time and time again. I have seen them trapped in perjury,
caught in perjury, perjury proven against them, and never a single
action taken against them.
Mr. Schj-:rer. I ask that you direct tlie witness to answer the ques-
tion wliether he said Rosser perjured himself.
Mr. (toldblatt. I did not say that.
Mr. ScHERER. All rig] it.
Mr. Arens. You won't say it while you are under oath.
Mr. GoLDBLATi'. I will Say once again I have never seen a single
paid perjurer appearing in trials against President Bridges and
against our union ever prosecuted by the FBI and the United States.
Mr. Arexs. Tell us was Rosser lyhig or was he telling the truth?
Was he one of these paid perjurers ?
Mr. GoLDBLATT. Same answer.
Mr. Arexs. When he said he knew you as a member of the inter-
national Communist conspiracy as author of this work ?
Mr. GoLDBLATT. Same answer.
Mr. Arexs. Now I would like to invite your attention to page 26
of this publication by yourself
One further step is necessary to know the structure of the Young Communist
League. This is to understand the international connection of the Young Commu-
nist Leagues throughout the world —
the unification that is completed through
the Young Communist International. Inasmuch as capitalism is not confined
to one country, but spreads its tentacles over five-sixths of the earth's surface,
it is necessary that communism be organized on a worldwide scale in order to
combat it. The international solidarity of all workers is absolutely necessary if
we are to conduct our struggle against war and fascism, and for the defense of
the Soviet Union.
Now, while you are under oath, did you write that language ?
Mr. GoLUBLATT. Same answer.
Mr. Arexs. I put it to you as a fact, sir, on the basis of the sworn
testimony before this committee, and ask you to aflirm or deny the
fact that you did write those words.
Mr. GoLDBLAiT. Same answer.
Mr. Arexs. Now we want to continue with a little of your treatise
here on page 27.
Mr. GoLDBLATT. The same statement that I made before to you, too.
Mr. Arexs. Thank you, sir.
As we have said, the Young Communist International is composed of the Young
Communist Leagues throughout the world. The highest body of the YCL is
the World Congress.The World Congress is made up
of delegates from the
various leagues, and lias as its job the planning of our tactics and work on a
worldwide scale. Its decisions are binding on all the Young Communist Leagues,
and the executive committee of the YCL, elected at the World Congress, is the
body chosen to carry out the plan of work.
I want to invite your attention still to another little excerpt from
the treaties on page, I believe it is, 29.
L?t me just be sure so we don't have any inaccuracies here.
Yes, page 29.
:
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSIOX 6883

Changes will take place very rapidly within the near future — and, \inless we
have a solid, disciplined organization
Mr. Andersen, '\^^lat page did you say?
Mr. Akens. Paê 29, counsel, of his work here; about the middle
of the page I am reading' now.
Mr. GoLDBLAiT. Same statement.
—
Changes will take place very rapidly within the near future and, unless we
have a solid, disciplined organization we will not be able to react to these
changes and fullill our revolutionary duties.
May I ask you what were these revolutionary duties ?
Mr. Andersen. Aren't you reading from something else? I don't

see it on page 29 of this book.
Mr. Arens. Page 29, counsel, beginning right in the middle of the
page right here.
Mr. Andersen. You are looking at a different page. This is page
29 [handing]. Will you point it out to me?
Mr, Arens. See if you can find this page. There was a little dif-
ficulty in identifying the page number at the bottom of the page.
Mr, Andersen. There is a lot of difficulty attendant on all of these
things.
Mr. A_rens. I respectf ulh' suggest that counsel again be admonished
ihat his sole and exclusive function is to advise his witness of his
constitutional rights.
Mr. Andersen. I am trying to help.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest he be so admon-
ished.
Mr. Andersen. 28.
Mr. GoLDBLATT. You are scared to death of anybody talking up
here now-.
Mr. Arens. Why don't you talk up then and tell us whether or not
you
Mr. GoLDBLATT. I have.
Mr. Arens. Whether or not you did write this article. We would
like to have you tell us. We don't want to impede your conversation at
all. Tell this committee while you are under oath
Mr. GoLDBLATT. You have had clear answers to your questions.
Mr. Arens. Give us a clear answer. Are you the author of this
article? Did you write the language in it?
Mr. GoLDBLATT. The same answer. And that is perfectly clear.
Mr. Arens. Now, counsel, have you found it ?
Mr. Andersen. I have found it, but I don't know where you are
reading.
Mr. Arens. I will start over again, counsel, to accommodate you
Changes will take place A'ery rapidly within the near future —and, miless we
have a solid, disciplined organization we will not be able to react to these changes
and fulflU our revolutionary duties.
Do you see that language, counsel?
Mr. Andersen. I have my
reading glasses on. I wish you would
point it out to me. I don't belitve it is on the page. It wasn't on i)age
29, and it wasn't on 28. I don't see it.
: :
Mr. Arens. We will underline the first word for you, counsel, right
there. There it is. Do you see the word underlined? I will read
it once more
Changes will take place very rapidly \Yithin the near future— and, unless we
have a solid, disciplined organization we will not be able to react to these changes
and fulfill our revolutionary duties.
Did you see that, counsel, there ? Do you follow me now ?
Mr. Andersen. Yes, I read you.
Mr. Arens. Thank you.
Now, Mr. Goldblatt, kindly tell the committee while jou are under
oath about these revolutionary duties.
Mr. Arens. We are not afraid of 3'our conversation. You come
ahead. You said Ave Avere afraid of it. We would like to have you
talk and tell us about these revolutionary duties.
Mr. Goldblatt. There are so many things I would love to talk to
you about.
jNIr. Arens. Tell us about these revolutionary duties. We Avould
like to have you do so.
In the very next sentence Ave find this
After all, there are 120 million iêople in the country, and the party has only
25,000 members, and the league around 7,000.
Did you write

all that, Mr. Goldblatt ?
Mr. Arens. Now I want to ask you about these major industries,
telling here about Iioav these 25,000 can be the most etlective.
And, if I misquote you, you be sure and check me and tell me you
didn't write that.
Mr. Goldblatt. Same statement, too.
Mr. Arens. Thank you, sir.
First of all—
This is all on the same page. Counsel, so you can follow me.
First of all, Ave must take into consideration the fact that our membership
is not large. Secondly, that there are key industries and certain key factories
in these industries. The major industries are mine, steel, auto, textile, agri-
culture, oil, railroads, and marine. These industries are the nerve centers of
capitalism. Consequently, our main activities must be around these key points.
That is pretty clear, isn't it, Mr. Goldblatt? And did you care to
elaborate on that and come forAvard Avith a further statement on that?
Or are you still a little bashful about connneiiting on this book.
(The Avitness confers Avith his counsel.)
Mr. Goldblatt. Mr. Doyle, I may have sounded a little bit irritated
here because I am accustomed to being treated as an xVmerican citi-
zen, not badgered and not baited, and no little phony counsel using
sarcasm in his Aôice in order to try to make an impression on the press.
I insist upon dignity being accorded me here.
]Mr. Sc'herer. I move the Avitness be ejected from the courtroom.
He has been Avarned.
Mr. Marshal
Mr. Goldblatt. I Avouldn't put it past you.
That's all riglit. I'll Avalk. You're all right.
(Whereupon, the Avitness Avas escorted from the hearing room.)
: —
Mr. ScHERER. I move we continue reading into the record and not
be prohibited from conducting this hearing in a
Mr. Doyle. Just a minute, Mr. Goldbhitt.
]Mr. Scherer. Xow, Mr. Chairman, the witness has prevented an
orderly, decent hearing, and has consistently attacked counsel of this
committee. He has been in contempt of this committee.
In view of his conduct, I ask that the counsel proceed to read into
the record the rest of the material he has.
Mr. DoTLE. Very well, it will be so ordered.
Mr, Arens. Mr. Chairman, if you please, sir, I will submit for the
record then exhibits which are self-authenticating.
If you please, sir, the first exhibit which I should submit for the
record,which is self-authenticating, is a copy
Mr. Chairman, may we have order. There is conversation all over
the room here.
Mr. Doyle. Let us have order and proceed with the hearings.
Mr, Arexs. The next exhibit which is self-authenticating with ref-
erence to this witness is a copy of the Communist Daily People's
"World, September 22, 1949, bearing the name of Tôuis Goldblatt as
one of the persons who is protesting the trial of the tAvelve Commu-
nists in Foley Square.
(Document marked ''Exhibit No. 568,'' see appendix, p. 8133.)
Mr. SciiEKER. ^Mr. Chairman, I move we have a 5-minute recess.
Mr, Doyle, Verj^ well.
The committee will stand in recess for 5 minutes,
C^^liereupon a short recess was taken. Committee members pres-
ent: Representatives Doyle, Velde, and Scherer.)
(The committee was reconvened at the expiration of the recess.
Committee members present Representatives Doyle, Velde, and
:
Scherer.)
Mr. Doyle. Are you read}-, counsel ?
JNIr. Arexs. Yes, sir.
Mr, Scherer. Before we proceed, I think I should say this
There are those in this country who feel that the Communist men-
ace is not a present danger, that there are so few Communists that
there is no danger to the internal security of this Nation, I think the
testimony and the conduct of the witness who just was ejected from the
hearing room clearly demonstrates that these people are wrong. Here
you have a Communist who acted and testified the way he did, who
practically controls the shipping of this country on the entire west
coast.
I have no further comment.
Mr. Doyle, Xot only that, Mr. Scherer, but unless Ave assume that
Îr. Rosser was a jjerjurer when he testified as he did, from the testi-
mony jNIr. Arens read, when he identified this Avitness (loldblatt at
the time the book was written as the one who has been using the name
Miller, unless we assume that this num Avas a perjurer under oath
I mean Mr. Rosser —
then I think it is a fair assmnption for us to make
that the Miller that wrote the book attacking the United States and
our SA^stem of government as read by our counsel Avas one and the same
as the present Goldblatt Avho Avas ejected from the room.
Îr. Scherer. There can be no question about that.
Mr. DoALE. ^Ve certainly gave him a chance to answer that.
85333— 57— pt. 1 48
: — :
6886 COIVIMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Now I -want to take, while we are getting quiet, just a few seconds to
—
read one paragraph and I wash I had time to read more from a —
decision in the case of Quinn v. United States^ in the Supreme Couit
of the United States, October term, 1954. And this again, I think,
is apropos especially in view of the attack on this committee by the
ACLU in the Chronicle the other day.
I quote
There can be no doubt as to the power of Congress, by itself or through its
committees, to investigate matters and conditions relating to contemplated legis-
lation. This power, deeply rooted in American and English institutions, is
indeed coextensive with the power to legislate. Without the power to investi-
—
gate including, of course, the authority to compel testimony either through its
—
own processes or through judicial trial Congress could be seriously handi-
capped in its efforts to exercise its constitutional function wisely and effectively.
But the power to investigate
I am deliberately reading this next statement by our highest court

so that no critic of the committee can say that I have only read
the most favorable portion of the decision. So, as a lawyer, I am
deliberately reading this paragraph. I am deliberately anticipating
what the critics of this committee would say if I dichi't read this next
paragraph. This committee heartily agrees with this next paragraph
the same as we did the one we just read.
I read again from the same decision
But the power to investigate, broad as it may be, is also subject to recognized
limitations. It cannot be used to inquii*e into private affairs unrelated to a
valid legislative purpose. Nor does it extend to an area in which Congress
is forbiddeo to legislate.
Mr. ScHERER. I am just wondering whether the American Civil
Liberties Union will now take a position or comment on the conduct
of the last witness, and whether it will attempt to defend the civil
rights of the duly elected representatives of the peo]^le and of the
counsel to this committee since they have been attacked by this Com-
munist who just left the stand. As usual, I think they will be strangely
silent.
Mr. Lawrence Speiser. Could I comment ?
Mr. Doyle. I invite that committee to print some portion at least of
the article by Mr. Goldblatt under the name of Miller, I assume, from
the testimony.
I ask that committee to print just the kernel of that to inform the
American public and the people who support that committee, of the
attack he made on our constitutional government.
Mr. Scherer. I would like to see the American Civil Liberties
Union, after due consideration, comment particularly for the benefit
of the press which has witnessed this exhibition this morning, on
the testimony and conduct of this witness before a congressional com-
mittee and his attack upon counsel of this committee.
Mr. Velde. Mr. Chairman, may I make just one observation?
I think it should be in the record that it is the unanimous opinion
of the three of us here on the subcommittee that our counsel, Mr.
Arens, conducted himself in good fashion all during the hearing of
the witness Louis Goldblatt, alias Lew Miller.
Mr. Sciierer. I think the record will demonstrate that. And those
in the room who have heard Mr. Arens during the last witness' appear-
ance on the stand can come to their own conclusion.
:
Mr. Doyle. I will say, Mr. Velde, I am sure we all agree with you.
I wish to thank the marshal for beiii<? so prompt in ejecting the one
person who disturbed the meetino-, and acting promptly as directed
by the committee.
We will not tolerate any approval or disapproval manifestations.
Proceed, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, the only introduction which I shall
now make will be from self-authenticating documents because, as is
obvious, the witness concerning whom the documents have information
is not physically present in the room.
The first document is a letterhead of the Northern California Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born with reference to a conference
of that organization which is to be held at the headquarters of the
1L"\VTJ in San Francisco.
Mr. Arens. The second document is a self-authenticating repro-
duction of an article in the Daily Worker of 1949 with respect to
Louis Goldblatt being ejected and deported from England when he
was there for a conference and because of his participation in a dock
strike that was going on at that time in England in 1949.
Mr. Arens. The next document, likewise, pertains to that same inci-
dent, and it is from the New York Times, which is a recitation by
Clifton Daniel of what transpired there.
Mr. SciiERER. Even the English, with their fine system of juris-
prudence, evidently do not tolerate the conduct of a man like this.
Mr. Arens. But I will just read one excerpt. And in the normal
course I would have interrogated the witness with respect to the facts
alleged in the article.
Quoting now from the New York Times of 1949
—
In the uieaiitime, 3 foreign anion officials 2 United States citizens and 1
—
Netherlander who were said by J. Cliuter Ede, British Home Secretary, to have
Communist affiliations and to have come here in connection with London strike,
were deported from Britain today.
This is a matter I would have normally interrogated the witness
about.
The next self-authenticating document is from the Communist
Daily AVorker with reference to a number of people who had petitioned
the United States Congress with reference to the anti-Connmniist
Mundt bill, and this document includes as one of those persons Louis
Goldblatt.
The next is a reference to a speech which appears in the Connminist
Daily People's World of December 1952, and a picture of Louis Gold-
blatt, in which Goldblatt is attacking the Smith Act, the McCarran
Act, that is the Internal Security Act, and the immigration laws,
various anti-Communist legislation in a session which was held in
Ix)s Angeles.
The next document Avhich I again say is self-authenticating is a
reproduction from the Daily People's World with reference to a lobby
in Washington, that a labor lobby has gone to Washington to lobby
for repeal of the Smith Act and other legislation.
Included in the lobby group that went to Washington, according
to this article, is Louis Goldblatt.
Mr. Arens. As I say, I would normally interrogate the witness and
ask him whether or not that reference presented tlie facts.
Mr. ScHERER. And he Avoukl promptly take the fifth amendment.

Mr. Arens. Yes.
The next self-authenticating document is with reference to a session
wliich was held in Los Angeles in wliich Lonis Goldblatt was one of the
speakers, and this session was nnder the auspices of the Los Angeles
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, liolding a dinner to honor
its legal panel. And the speaker of the occasion was, according to this
document, Louis Goldblatt.
Still the next document is a reproduction of the Communist Daily
Worker of New York of 1952 in which Louis Goldblatt is to be the
speaker at a session honoring lawyers who were working with the Los
Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
The next document is a letterhead of the Harry Bridges Defense
Committee, on which Louis Goldblatt is listed as one of the sponsoring
members of the committee.
The next document is a reproduction of the Daily People's "World
of December 1951, with reference to the activities of Louis Goldblatt
in connection with the Progressive Party of California.
The next document isa reproduction of a statement by C. J.
Haggerty, secretary of the California State Federation of Labor, on
the California school. It makes reference to activities of Louis Gold-
blatt in connection with the California Labor School.
]Mr. Doyle. Was that the report in which the State A. F. of L. con-
demned the California Labor School ?
Mr. Arens. It is a California State Federation of Labor report.
Mr. Doyle. By Mr. Haggerty. And that report condemned the
California Labor School as being Communist controlled, I believe.
Mr. Arens. We have still another document, self-authenticating^
from the Daily Worker in which a number of people back in 1942,
before the expulsion of Earl Browder from the Communist Party,
intervened on his behalf. Leaders of this group include, according
to the Communist Daily Worker, Louis Goldblatt.
As I say, Mr. Chairman, these are self -authenticating documents in
that they are documents which are available to the public. But the
facts which appear in them are subject to interrogation of the witness.
Then we have a final document which is self-authenticating, an orig-
— —
inal document Let Freedom Ring of the Civil Rights Congress,
referring to a conference held in Chicago. This document reveals
that one of the sponsors is Louis Goldblatt, secretary-treasurer, Inter-
national Longshoremen's and Warehousemen's Union.
(Documents marked "Exhibits Nos. 569-579a, b," see appendix,
pp. 8134-8146.)
Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest also that the document con-
cerning which I was interrogating the witness when he was expelled
—
from the hearing room, this booklet I don't have it at my fingertips at
(Jio moment^— be incorporated at least by reference in the record, and
iilso the application card for the Young Communist League which was
inserted in the booklet calling for the establishment of a workers" and
—
farmers' government a Soviet America.
Mr. Schereh. Mr. Chairman, I understand a tape recording has
been made, or is being made, of the witnesses before this committee. I
move that the staif l)e instructed to obtain that portion of the tape
recording on which the last witness' testimony appears, and that it
be made a part of this witness' file.
;
Mr. Doyle. Without objection.

Mr. ScHERER. I want it to be played to a committee that is going
(o consider legislation in the next Congress enabling congressional
committees to more effectively deal with such obvious contemptuous
conduct as displayed by the last witness.
Mr. Doyle. Without objection, it is so ordered.
And I think it would be appropriate, members of the committee
and counsel, if that part of the booklet under the name of Miller,
according to the sworn testimony by Rosser, of Goldblatt's, be incor-
porated in here.
Without objection, that will be done.
Call your next witness.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Clair Jensen, J-e-n-s-e-n. Kindly come forward.
Please remain standing while the chairman administers an oath
to you.
Mr. Doyle. Mrs. Jensen, please raise your right hand.
Do you solemnl}^ swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and noth-
ing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mrs. Jexsex. I do.
Mr. Doyle. May the record show that Subcommittee Chairman
Doyle is retiring from the committee at this time until reconvening
of the committee at 2 o'clock.
I have a speaking engagement with a group of security officers, and
I am leaving the committee with Mr. Velde of Illinois to act in my
stead, and leaving a quorum of the subcommittee of three.
Therefore, a legal quorum is present.
TESTIMONY OF MES. CLAIR JENSEN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,

AUBREY GROSSMAN
Mr. Arexs. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.
Mrs. Jexsen. Clair Jensen, C-1-a-i-r, 1422 Seventh Street, Berkeley
housewife.
{Representative Clyde Doyle left the hearing room at this point.)
Mr. Arexs. You are appearing today, Mrs. Jensen, in response to a
subpena which was served upon you by the House Committee on
Vn -American Activities ?
Mrs. Jexsex. Yes.

Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel ?
Mrs. Jensen. Yes.
Mr. Arexs. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself.
Mr. Grossman. Aubrey Grossman, 1440 Broadway, Oakland.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Jensen, are you, or have you been, secretary of the
East Bay Committee for Protection of Foreign Born?
]\rrs. Jensen. I refuse to answer on the grounds of the fifth amend-
ment to the Constitution.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel, Mrs. Jensen, if you told this
committee truthfully whether or not you are secretary to the East Bay
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born you would be supply-
ing information that could be used against you in a criminal ])ro-
ceoding?
—— :
Mrs. Jensen. I refuse to answer this question because I honest-

answering it might lead to prosecuting action against mv-
ly feel that
self.
Mr. Arens. Thank you, ma'am.
Now, we would like to display to you, if you please, 2 or 3
exhibits. The first is Tlie Light, which is a publication identified in
our record ali-eady, issued by the Northern California Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born. In this publication, The Light, we see
here, on page 2, the following among other things.
East Bay supporters of the Northern California Committee for Protection of
the Foreign Born are really in line for a merit award for outstanding work.
Led by Clair Jensen, they have given all-out support to the "third annual
festival of nationalities" in preparing the program, in selling tickets, and in
collecting funds
and so forth.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 580," see appendix, pp. 8147, 8148.)
Then also I shall display to you at the same time. The Lamp of the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, of March-May
1953, the following appears
An East Bay Committee for Protection of Foreign Born has been established
in Oakland, Calif.
and so forth.
Kindly look at those two articles and tell us whether or not you have
firsthand information respecting the establishment of the East Bay
Committee foi- Protection of Foreign Born and whether or not you
are one of the leaders in that group.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 581," see appendix, p. 8149.)
Mrs. Jensen. I refuse to answer this question on the basis of the
first amendment and also the fifth. On the basis of the first because
I have a complete right to always speak mj^ mind and be a member
of any organization I wish to be
Mr. Arens. Of course you do.
Mrs. Jensen. Under tlie Constitution of the United States.
Mr. Arens. Except a criminal conspiracy.
Now tell this committee whether or not you know a person by the
name of Stanley B. Hancock.
Mrs. Jensen. Do you consider Mr. Hancock to be a person who has
Communist affiliations?
Mr. Arens. I beg your pardon ?
Mrs. Jensen. Do you consider
Mr. Arens. Please tell this committee, ma'am, while you are under
oath whether you know Stanley B. Hancock.
Mrs. Jensen. I take exception to the question on the basis of the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Jensen, wliat was your maiden name?
Mrs. Jensen. Clair Aderer.
Mr. Arjcns. How do you spell the last name?
Mrs. Jensen. A-d-e-r-e-r.
Mr. Arens. Now I should like to read you a little testimony and
see if you can't help this Committee on Un-American Activities. It
:
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSIOK 6891
isthe testimony of Stanley B. Hancock, who was a former Communist

Party functionary in San Diego County.
Q. I haud you a list of individuals who at one time lived in the San Diego area.
Will you please examine the list and identify any appearing on it vrho are known
to you to be members of the Communist Party with such identifying information
regarding them as you can giveV
A. I knew a party named Clair, C-1-a-i-r, .Aderer, A-d-e-r-e-r, a young lady, I
think, from Los Angeles, who became affiliated with our San Diego Communist
Party, and it seems to me she was engaged in youth activities.
Was Mr. Hancock lying or was he telling the truth when he so

testified under oath ?
Mrs. Jensen. I refuse to ansAver on the basis of the fifth amendment
to tlie Constitution.
Mr. Arens. Now do you know, or have you known, a person by the
name of Daniel Taylor?
The witness confers with her counsel.)
(
Mrs. Jensen. I refuse to answer on the basis of the fifth amendment

to the Constitution.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Daniel Taylor, a former functionary of the Com-
mmiist Party at San Diego, testified before the House Committee on
Un-American xVctivities, on April 19, 1954. In this testimony the
following appears:
Q. Are you acquainted with Clair Aderer?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that person a member of the Communist Party to your knowledge?
A. Yes. She was a rank-and-tile member.
Did Mr. Taylor lie when he identified you as a member of the Com-
munist Party ? Or did he tell the truth ?
Mrs. Jensen. I refuse to answer on the basis of the fifth amendment
Mr. Arens. Now we
display to you a reproduction of the Daily
People's of September 1940, respecting a fund drive for the
World
Connnunist Daily People's World. And this fund drive quotes you
as folloAvs
Clair Aderer, who recently came from San Diego, has personally issued a chal-
lenge to Vern Lym,"^ dri\e director in the south, to get her quota in first. This
challenge has also been accepted.
Please look at this publication, if you will, ma'am, and tell this
connnittee while you are under oath whether or not you are accurately
identified in that })ublication.
ISIrs. Jensen. 1 refuse to answer on the basis of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now I have a document issued by the East Bay Connnit-
tee for Protection of Foreign Born: '-Walter'-McCarran Act Protest
Rallv."'
Fourteen million foreign-burn Americans are threatened by the
Walter McCarran Act. Organized labor is threatened by it, accord-
ing to this. And the Constitution is threatened by it.
Hear Abner Green, executive secretary of the American Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born. All to be held at Herman Sons Hall.
1 This is a reference to La Verne Lym.

))
Please committee while you are under oath, if you pre-

tell this
document and if it is a true and authentic reproduction of a
]iared this
document issued by the East Bay Committee.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 583,'' se appendix, p. 8151.)
( The witness confers Avith her counsel.)
Mr. Grossmax. May I su<r<rest that you preserve the secrecy of com-
munication between counsel and witness by stepping back, please?
Back farther, please.
I would ask the chairman of the committee to preserve the right
of secrecy of counsel to confer with his client.
Mr. Velde. (presiding). You know the rules of this committee. If
you care to go into the back room for a minute or two and confer
with your client, it will be considered.
Mr. Grossmax. I refer only to Mr. Wheeler standing over my
shoulder.
Mr. Velde. He isn't there now. So go ahead and confer.
Mr. Grossmax. Thank you very much.
Mrs. Jensex. I refuse to answer on the basis of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Jensen, could you tell this committee what a stool
pigeon is ?
Mr. Velde. Did she use that term in that document, Mr. Arens?
Mr. Akexs. No.
(The witness confers with her counsel.
Mrs. Jexsex. That is a c[nestion that is diflicult to answer you in
just a few words.
]\lr. Velde. Would you speak up ?
—
Mrs. Jex'Sex. This is a question I said this is a question that is
not too easy to answer in just a few words. So, if the committee
and the attornev will give me a little time to think of my answer, I
Avill appreciate it.
Mr. Velde. How long do you think it will take you to answer the
question ?
Mrs. Jexsex. If you will just give me a little time to think without
interrupting,it will be much easier and much quicker.
Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman, I suggest counsel withdraw his ques-
tion.
Mr. Velde. It is taking up too much time.
]Mr. Scherer. Proceed.
Mr. Arexs. Were you a stool pigeon against yourself when you
signed this proxy for attendance at the State Central Committee
meeting of the Communist Party under date of September 18, 1940,
in an original Communist Party document?
Mrs. Jexsex. I refuse to answer on the basis of the fifth amend-
Mr. Arens. Do you know Esco L. Richardson ?
The witness confers with her counsel.
(
Mrs. Jensex. I refuse to answer on the basis of the fifth amend-

ment.
— ) —
:
Mr. Arens. Was he a stool pigeon when he si^rned this original

affidavit for the Communist Party appointing- you as a delegate to
the Communist State Central Committee at Sacramento?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 585,'' see appendix, p. 8153.)
Mrs. Jensex. I refuse to answer on the basis on the fifth amend-
ment of the Constitution.
Mr. Arens. Noay I Avould like, if you please, ma'am, to allude to a
report of a meeting of the East Bay Committee, which was held
November 28 of this year, just last month, the latter part of last
month, at the Finnish Hall, 1819 10th Street in Berkeley.
Did you have charge of that meeting over there ?
Mr. Arens. Just about 2 weeks ago.
Mrs. Jensen. I refuse to answer on the basis of the first and fifth
amendments.
Mr. Arens. According to the report that has come into the posses-
sion of the committee in legitimate channels
Clair Jensen then introduced a Reverend Herriott
H-e-r-r-i-o-t-t
for some brief comments.Reverend Herriott stated tliat lie was honored to be
present tonight. Whenhe was asked about appearing he stated he would be
happy to for he had always believed in fighting for the rights of the oppressed
and downtrodden, and this was also the position followed by his church. He
stated that he believed that it was good for a person or group to have a symbol
or belief to guide them, just as a ship has an emblem on its bow to guide it
through dark, deep and troublesome waters. He wanted to read two short poems
to the audience.
Are you the one who got Reverend Herriott over there to that
meeting ?
JNIrs. Jensen. I refuse to answer on the basis of the fifth amendment
of the Constitution.
Mr. Arens. Did you tell Reverend Herriott that you and your com-
mittee are controlled lock, stock and barrel by the Communist
conspiracy when you got him over there ?
Mrs. Jensen. I refuse to answer on the basis of the fiftli amendment
]Mr. Arens. Now Communist Agent Abner Green from the Amer-
ican Committee for Protection of Foreign Born gave a little speech
over there just a couple of weeks ago. Isn't that true?
Mrs. Jensen. I refuse to answer on the basis of the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Arens. Abner Green stated in this speech, did he not, that the
Internal Security Act of 1950 and the old Smith Act were being used
to hamper and set back the progressive forces of this country ?
Did Abner Green say that a couple of weeks ago before the East
Bay Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. ScHERER. He said that about the Smith Act and what other
act?
Mr. Arens. The Internal Security Act.
)
Mrs. Jensen. I refuse to answer on the basis of the fifth amendment.

Mr, Arens, And did Abner Green ô on and talk about the present
company ?
When Congress reconvenes there will be once again many attempts made
to change our immigration laws. This time Congressman Walter is relying on
new tactics to prevent any changes in his bill. He is using the Un-American
Activities Committee to argue his case. This committee is presently engaged
in a road tour [laughter].
Did everybodj^ laugh when Abner Green said that ?

Mrs. Jensen. I refuse to answer that on the basis of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. ^'ELDE. Do you knoAv Abner Green, Witness?
Mrs. Jensen. I didn't hear you.
Mr. Velde. Are you acquainted with Abner Green ?
Mr. Arens. Then after the laughter we see the following:
a road tour that is carrying it all over the country in an attempt to harass the
Committee for the Protection of the Foreign Born. The Un-American Activities
Committee and Congressman Walter are trying present to the American
to
people the picture that foreign born, or at least the foreign born who object to
the McCarran-Walter bill, are Communists. The committee will come to the
west coast after holding hearings in Chicago. While in Chicago the committee
will hear witnesses from Illinois, Indiana, and Michigan. The committee will
be in Los Angeles on the 5th, 6th and 7th of December. After leaving Los Angeles
the committee will come to San Francisco, then on to Seattle.
Did Abner Green and you and the other comrades over at the East
Bay Committee for Protection of Foreign Born hare this information
under date of November 28, 1956, just about 2 weeks ago?
—
Mr. Arens. And then did Abner Green and I will not undertake
to burden the record with a complete quotation here of this voluminous
document reporting on the meeting
Did Abner Green then go on and tell the comrades about Avhat all
he did to stand up to the House Un-American Activities Committee
when we had him in Washington here about a month or so ago, or a
couple of months ago? How he bested the committee, and how he
discredited the committee ?
Did he tell you all about that ?
(The witness confeis with her counsel.)
Mrs. Jensen. I refuse to answer on the basis of the fifth amendment,
Mr. Ajjens, Did he tell you how he shook his finger at the com-
mittee, told the committee members they Avere violating the Consti-
tution of the United States, and refused to give them the information
they required ?
Mr, SciiERER. He's right about that latter part. He didn't answer
a question. He took the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Did Abner Green tell you all that ?
Mrs, Jensen. I refuse to answer on the basis of the fifth amend-
Mr. Arens. I put it to yo-.i as a fact, ma'am, and ask you to affirm
or deny the fact that the East Bay Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born is one tentacle of the American Committee for Protec-
)
tion of Foreign Born and that, to your certain knowledge, it is con-

and barrel, by the Communist Party.
trolled, lock, stock,
( The witness confers with her counsel.

ment.
Mr. Arens. Are you now a member of the Communist conspirato-
rial apparatus ?
Mrs. Jenskn. I refuse to answer on the basis of the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Arens. Now I would like to ask you, if I may, in conclusion,
the names of some people who were in attendance at this little session
over here concerning v.hich you have the dark cloud of secrecy.
Gilbert Bendix do you know him ?
;
Mrs. Jensen. Do you consider that this Gilbert Bendix has Com-
munist affiliations ?
Mr. Arens. Ma'am, I am asking the questions here. Just tell us,
Was Gilbert Bendix there ?
Mrs. Jensen. I refuse to answer on the ])asis of the fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. Arens. Grace Patridge ?
ment.
Mr. Arens. Was Ann Yanish there ? Y-a-n-i-s-h.
ment.
Mr. Arens. "Well, let's just, without being too tedious about this
matter, ask you if you will tell us who was there.
ment.
ISIr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will conclude
the staff interrogation of this witness.
]Mr. Vr.T.DE. An}^ questions, ]\[r. Scherer?
Mr. SciiERER. The fact is that, by far, the greater percentage of
those that were at this meeting were members of the Connnunist
Party. Isn't that a fact, Witness ?
Mrs. Jensen. I refuse to answer on the basis of tlie fifth amend-
ment.
Mr. SciiERKR. That is all.
Mr. Velde. The witness is excused. And the committee will be in
recess until 2 o'clock.
(Whereupon, at 12:20 p. m., the committee was recessed, to be re-
convened at 2 ]). m. this same day. Conunittee members present Rep- :
resentatives Velde and Scherer.)
AFTERNOON SESSION—TUESDAY, DECEMBER 11, 1956
The subcommittee was reconvened at the expiration of the recess at

2 35 p. m. and resumed
: itshearings on Investigation of Communist
Propaganda in tlie United States. For these proceedings, see testi-
mony of Wilhelmina Loughrey (correct spelling Wilhelmine
Ijoughry) and Lawrence Lowe, which is printed under the title, "In-
vestigation of Communist Propaganda in the United States," Part
3, pages 6135-6189, At the conclusion of their testimony, hear-
ings on Communist Political Subversion were resumed.
Committee members present when the subcommittee reconvened:
Representatives Doyle and Scherer.
Mr. Spejser. Mr. Chairman, I wonder if it would be proper to make
some commonts with respect to the comments about ACLU, on which
they were invited, at this time ?
Mr. DoYi.E. No, INIr. Speiser.
Mr. Speiser. Very well.
Mr. Arens. The next witness, if you please, Mr. Chairman, will be
Mr. Aubrey Grossman.
Kindly come forward.
Kindly remain standing while the chairman administers an oath to
you.
Mr. DoTi,E. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Grossman. I do.
TESTIMONY OF AUBREY GROSSMAN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,

BENJAMIN DREYFUS
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.
Mr. Grossman. Just one minute, please.
Aubrey Grossman, 1440 Broadway, Oakland attorney-at-law. ;
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today, Mr. Grossman, in response

to a subpena Avhich was served upon you by the House Committee on
Un-American Activities ?
Mr. Grossman. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself.
]\Ir. Dreyfijs. I am Benjamin Dreyfus, San Francisco.
Mr. Arens. Give us just a thiunbnail sketch, please, Mr. Grossman,
of your education.
Mr. Grossman. Graduated from the University of California at
Los Angeles in 1932: graduated from the University of California
Law School at Berkele}^ 1935.
Mr. Arens. And when were you admitted to practice laAv?
Mr. Grossman. Somewhere in the latter part of 1936 I believe ; it
was August.
Mr. Arens. You are admitted in the State of California and in any
other State?
Mr. Grossman. Only the State of California.
Mr. Arens. Are you admitted in the Federal courts?
Mr. Arens. And when were you admitted in the Federal courts ?
Mr. Grossman. I believe soon after my admission to the bar of Cali-
fornia so far as the Federal district court is concerned in this district.
I was admitted to the bar of the Supreme Court of the United States
at some later time ; I believe around 1940.
:

]\Ir. Arexs. And as a prerequisite to your admission to practice
law in this State did you take an oath to support and defend the Con-
stitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and
domestic?
Mr. Grossman. I don't remember the exact wording of the oath. I
don't think it read the way you describe it. But I took an oath.
Mr. Arexs. Is that substantially the oath you took ?
Mr. Grossman. I would rather not rely on memory.
Mr. Arexs. Did you take an oath to support the Constitution ?
Mr. Grossman. Yes. That I am sure of.
Mr. Arens. At the time you took that oath were you a member of
the Communist party ?
•
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question on several grounds
One, the provisions of the first amendment Avhich protect my right
of free speech and free press ;
Two, the protection of the fifth amendment insofar as the answer

to the question might conceivably lead to prosecution and ;
Three, the fact that this committee is engaged in a project which is

a nonlegislative jûrpose, a project to investigate and intimidate the
activities of the people of the United States looking toward amend-
ment of Federal legislation.
So, for those three grounds, I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Grossman, do you honestly apprehend that
if you told this committee truthfully whether or not you were a mem-
ber of the Communist Party at the time you took an oath and were
admitted to practice law in these courts, you would be supplying in-
foi-mation that might be used against you in a criminal proceeding?
]Mr. Grossman. Well, I don't read the United States Supreme Court
decisions the way you do, counsel ?
I say that I, in good faith, believe that if I answer this question it
may tend to lead to prosecution of me.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Grossman, do you know a man by the name
of Mr. Lou Eosser, R-o-s-s-e-r ?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of
tlie first and fifth amendments, those particulars of them that I spec-
ified.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Rosser took an oath and testified while he was
under oath that you were a Communist, a member of the Young Com-
munist League in 1934.
"Was Mr. Rosser lying or was he telling the truth ?
{ Tlie witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question on tlie grounds of
the first and fiftli amendments, those parts of those amendments tliat
I have specifically referred to.
Mr. Arens. As a matter of fact, Mr. Rosser testified that you were
not only a member of the Young Communist League but you were a
leader of the Young Communist Têague at Berkeley. Was he lying or
was lie telling the truth ?
]\fr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question on the same i^ro-
visions of tlie first and fiftli amendments.
]\rr. Arexs. Mr. Rosser continued in his testimony by saying Hint
after lie had known you as a ineni])er of the Young Coninninist League
he knew you as a member of the Communist Part}'.
"Was Mr. liosser lying at that point or was ho telling the truth?
Mr. Di{i:yfi's. Excuse lue. Could you tell us -where the testimony
conies from ?
Mr. Akens. I would be very glad to. I am sure Mr. Orossman
knoAvs. It was testimony of December 1, 1953.
Mr. Dreyfus. Before this committee ?
Mr. Arejss. Yes.
Mr. Dreyfus. Thank you.
Mr. Arexs. Now was he telling the truth or was he Ij'ing ?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question, using as my
grounds the same provisions 1 have referred to, of the first and fifth
amendments.
Mr. Arens. Now do vou know a man by the name of Dickson,
D-i-c-k-s-o-n, P. Hill?
Mr. Grossman. I would like to ask the committee whether the com-
mittee considers that this man who has been named is a member of, or
any Communist organization.
affiliated with,
Mr, Arens. jMr. Chaiiinan, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer that question.
Do you know a man b}" the name of Dickson P. Hill ?
Mr. Grossman. In the light of the fact that I presume the commit-
tee is not playing games and must be naming this name having some
evidence in mind, or some statement by this person in mind, and in
light of the fact that the committee will not tell me whether or not
they consider this man has such affiliations, I am obliged to decline to
answer this question, basing myself upon the first and fifth amend-
ments as specifically referred to in previous answers.
Mr. Arens. All right. I would like to read you some questions and
answers of Dickson P. Hill while he was under oath before this com-
mittee on Decenlber 2, 1953.
Q. Did you ever attend a Communist Party meeting where the Duclos letter
was discussed?
A. Yes.
Q. Where was this meeting held, and who was the principal speaker?
A. That was held in San Francisco, when an attorney, I believe, by the name of
—
Aubrey Grossman, I believe Grossman, yes
Q. A-u-b-r-e-y?
A. That is right.
Q. G-r-o-s-s-m-a-ii. Is that correct?
—
A. Yes and William Schneiderman spoke at that meeting.
Q. Did you know later, at that time or later, Aubrey Grossman to be a member
of the Communist Party?
A. Yes, I did I mean through intraparty communications yes.
; ;
Does that help to refresh your recollection, Mr. Grossman ?

Mr. Grossman. I decline to answêr that question on the same
grounds I set out before, relying upon the first and the fifth amend-
ments.
Mr. Arens. Do you recall being in a little meeting in which you and
William Schneiderman spoke with reference to the Duclos letter?
AHolation of the first and fifth amendments as specifically referred to
in my previous answers.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Mrs. Bessie Honig, H-o-n-i-g ?
I
::
COMMUXIST POLITICAL SUBVERSIOlSr 6S99

•

the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Bessie Honig testified under oath and laid her
liberty on the line and stated while she was under oath that, while
she was a former operative for the FBI in security work, she knew
you as a Communist. Did she lie or did she tell the truth ?
Mr, Grossman. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of
violation of the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness either
invoke the fifth amendment properly or be directed to answer the
question.
Did Mrs. Honig lie or did she tell the truth when she named you
under oath as a member of the Communist conspiracy ?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question on several grounds
First, it violates my rights under the first amendment of the Con-
stitution
Mr. Arens. You know it doesn't violate any rights.
Mr. Grossman. Just one minute, please. Just a minute, please.
In particular, because it violates my right of free speech.
I am also entitled to a privilege under the fifth amendment, which
I assert, the privilege of refusing to answer any question which, if
I answer it, might tend to result in a prosecution.
Mr. Arens. Now I would like to invite your attention, please, sir.
to several of your activities as evidenced by certain Communist j)ub-
lications. First of all, have you been connected with the Northern
California Committee for Protection of Foreign Born?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question on three grounds
One, that the answer to that question might tend to result in prosecu-
tion. Therefore, I rely on the fifth amendment. No. 2, that my
rights under the first amendment, my right of free speech and the
right to petition Congress for redress of grievances, would be violated
by that question. And, No, 3, that this looks toward a nonlegislative
purpose of this committee to wit, the purpose I have previously re-
;
ferred to, the purpose of attempting to investigate and impede the

activity of the people of the United States looking toward amendment
of legislation in general and, in particular, amendment of the Walter-
McCarran Act.
Mr. Arens. In particular what kind of people ?
Mr. Grossman. All kinds of people.
Mr. Arens. You wouldn't say just Communists then is that correct ?
;
Mr. Grossman. I would not.

Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact that in October of 1955 you
were the master of ceremonies at the Festival of Nationalities, held
by the Nortliern California Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born at Berkeley, Calif., at the Finnish Hall, 1819 10th Street.
If that isn't true, deny it while you are under oath.
Mr, Grossman, I decline to answer the question on the same grounds
as my previous answer. Does the chairman of the committee wish me
to itemize again my objections? Because counsel apparently wasn't
satisfied with my brief statement,
Mr, Doyle, Just make it clear you plead the fifth amendment,
Mr, Grossman. All right. Exactly the same grounds as I declined
to answer the previous question.
— : — — ) —
•
Mr. Arens. Now I would like to invite your attention to the Com-
munist Daily People's World, Thursday, March 22, 1945, and read
you a little article here
An Institute on World Security, sponsored by the San Francisco Communist
Political Association, will be held here
that is in San Francisco

at the St. Francis Hotel.
Among those who are listed as leaders of this world security pro-
gram sponsored by the Communist Political Association is Aubrey
Grossman, identified here as an attorney.
Kindly look at this document and see if that refreshes your recollec-
tion with reference to your participation in this world program under
the auspices, so the article says, of the Coimnunist Political Associa-
tion.
Document marked "Exhibit No. 586," see appendix, p. 8154.)
(
The witness examines document.

(
Mr. Grossman. Which part of the page there ?

Mr. Arens. It is marked there. We put the red around the Com-
munist activities.
Mr. Grossman. Thank you.
(The witness examines document and confers with his counsel.)
(Representative Harold H. Velde returned to the hearing room at
this point.)
tlie firstand fiftli amendments.
Mr, Arens. Who was Earl Browder, and what was his line Can ?
you help us on that'^ Does that mean anything to you?

Mr. Arens. Well, so we don't impede your free speech, we want
vou to speak up freely now and tell us if this account in the Daily
People's World of Thursday, Julv 19, 1945, is truthful.
Here is what the article says:
California Communists Repudiate Browder Line
State headquarters of the Communist Political Association of California an-
nounced today that a special State convention of the association last Sunday
endorsed the main line of the draft resolution submitted by its national com-
mittee and elected 10 delegates to the special national convention of the asso-
ciation
and so forth.
And paragraph or two, and here is what I
I skip a see. And. for
your enlightenment, I have marked it in red, too.
The Northern California convention elected the following delegates to the
national convention John Hughes, Steve Nelson, Ray Thompson, William
:
Schneiderman, .Tolin Morgan, and Mickey Lima

witliAubrey Grossman as one of the alternates.
Kindly look at this document and see if it is truthfully setting forth
what liappened, and, if so, kindly tell tliis committee while you are
under oath whether or not you were the alternate delegate to that Com-
munist convention.
(Tlie witness examines document and confers with his counsel.)
: :
Mr. Grossjean. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of

Mr. Arens. And, comino- up chronolo<Tically with your activities,
we see still another exhibit here from the Daily People's World, Sep-
tember 21, 1945, and this article is entitled
Communists To Hold Job Rally
All East Bay workers are invited to attend a mass meeting tonight (Friday), 8
p. m., at the Oakland Auditorium Ballroom on "Jobs for All," sponsored by the
Communist Party of Alameda County, CP oflBcials said today.
Then the article goes on and tells us who are going to be speakers
and leaders of that group, including one Aubrey Grossman, identified
here as a labor attorney.
Look at that document and tell us if you can't help the Committee
on Un-American Activities in its legislative purpose of trying to
develop facts so thatwe can oust the Communist growth.
Mr, Grossman. Would you repeat the question, please?
Mr. Areks. Yes. Look at that document and see if you can give
us a little information so we can go back to Wasliington and maybe
legislate more on communism.
Mr. Grossman. Is that a question ?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir. I am soliciting your free speech to help this
committee.
Mr. Grossman. Does the committee rule that is a question ?
Mr. Arens. INIr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
Mr. Doyle. It is a request for you to cooperate with the committee
if you will.
Mr. Arens. He was protesting that the committee had no legislative
purpose.
Mr. Grossman. Is that a question or a request to cooperate ?
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
Mr. Doyle. I think it is in the form and intent of a question. I
think we understand that.
Mr. Edises. May wê have the question read ?
Mr. Arens. I will be glad to repeat it.
Mr. Grossman. Let's have it read.
Mr. Arens. Kindly look at this article and see if you can give this
committee information about the activities of the Communists as re-
ported in that article so the committee can have that information when
it goes back to devise more legislation on communism.
Mr. Grossman. Though I don't conceive that to be a question, if it
is a question, I will decline to answer it on the grounds of the first and
fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Now I w ant to invite your attention to still another docu-
ment, the Daily People's World of November 9, 1945, and the head-
line says
SF Communists Elect Officers
The San Francisco County committee of the Communist Party today announced
its election of officers for the coming year.
85.333— 57— pt. 1 4!t

And they list the officers, including Aubrey Grossman wlio was elected
educational director.
Kindly look at this document and tell the Committee on Un-Ameri-
can Activities if you recall that occasion in which you achieved the dis-
tinction of being elected educational director of the Communist Party^
(The witness examines document.)
(Document marked "Exhibit No, 589," see appendix, p. 8155.)
Mr. Arens. Now I want to invite your attention to other occasions
in which you did more freely express yourself and your free speech
wasn't quite so impeded.
In the Communist Daily World of November 17, 1945, we see ar»
advertisement:
What is the role of MacArthur in the Philippines ?
Will the Philippines get their independence in 1946?
What form does U. S. imperialism take in the Philippines?
For answers to these questions, come to Jefferson Park, Turk and Laguna
Streets, Sunday, November 18.
Listed among who

are going to speak, curiously enough,
the people
is Aubrey Grossman, educational director of the Communist Party.
And this occasion is all under the auspices, according to the adver-
tisement, of the Communist Party of San Francisco.
Kindly look at that document and tell this committee while you are
under oath whether or not you expressd yourself to your listeners and
were introduced in that capacity.
(Document marked 'Exhibit No. 590,", see appendix, p. 8156.)
Mr. Dreyfus. I beg your pardon. What is the question, counsel?
Mr. Dreyfus. I didn't follow the question, sir.
Mr. Arens. Were you the man that made a speech who was intro-
duced as Aubrey Grossman, educational director of the Communist
Party, as set forth in that publication that you are looking at right
now ?

Mr. Arens. I Avant to invite your attention to still another docu-
ment of this publication, the Dailv People's World of Wednesday,
July 3. 1946.
Here is a little article that probably you can help us on.
Forum Friday on Trolleys, Maritime

The streetcar strike and the maritime situation \Al\ be discussed Friday night
at the first of a series of weekly forums conducted by the Communist Party of
San Francisco.
Aubrey Grossman, educational director of the Communist Party, will lead
the discussion on the streetcar strike.
Look at that and see if you recall a streetcar strike and your leading
the discussion on that unhappy occasion.
(Document marked "Exliibit No. 591," see appendix, p. 8156.)
(Tlie witness examines document.)
the first and fifth amedments.
::

Mr. Arens. Now I invite your attention to still another document,
an advertisement appearing in the Daily People's World of September
1946:
Communist Party Friday Forum, Friday, September 13, 8 p. m.
And tlie subject that is going to be discussed there, according to
this, is
Is Palestine the Answer?

And who is going to enlighten the listeners is identified
the orator
here as Aubre}' Grossman, educational director, San Francisco Com-
munist Party. And the admission is free.
Kindly look at that document, if you please, sir, and tell this com-
mittee while you are under oath whether you are appropriately identi-
fied.
Mr. Grossmax. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of
Mr. Arexs. And have you, in addition to your educational activities
in the oratorical field, also been a writer? Do you recall any of your
published wôrks?
Mr. Grossmax. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of
Mr. Arexs. I observe here in the Communist Daily Worker of June
1948, that is published, as we all know by the Communist Party, an
article
Some of Our Fundamental Tasks, by Aubrey Grossman, organizer, Mission Sec-
tion, San Franscisco.
I will read just a little of it here, and see if it refreshes your recollec-
tion.
As the preconvention resolution points out, our party has tremendous tasks
before it. Task I is to stop world war III before it develops. Though the
American peoi)le do not want war, they have been misled into support of the
Marshall plan which constitutes the highway to world war III.
Then I observe here frequent references in the article to "our party"
and:
Our experiences today in the United States demonstrate that "only a party
which has mastei-ed the Marxist-Leninist theory can confidently advance and
lead the working class forward." What is true for the party is true for each
individual member. Marxist-Leninist theory will enable us to "understand
the inner connection of events, to foresee their course, and to perceive not only
how and in what direction they are developing in the present, but how and in
what direction they are bound to develop in the future." That is why we must
study the history of the CPSU.
Tlie ('(Mnmunist Party of the Soviet Union.
AA'hile you are under oath here, Mr. Grossman, won't you unburden
yourself with some of these experiences wliicli you indicated liere
will lead the world toward peace and serve your (xovernment in that
capacity ?
(Document marked "E.xliibit No. 592," see appendix, p. 8157.)

Mr. Grossm.\x, Does the chairman rule that is a question ?
Mr. Arens. It is a request if you would kindly do so.
Mr. Grossman. Is it a question ?
)
Mr. Doyle. You have heard what counsel stated. It is a request.

Mr. Arens. Tell us if that is what you said. If it is, tell us all about
this Communist Part}' that you are commending there as the vanguard
of the working class.
( The witness confers with his counsel.
Mr. trossman. I do not heed the request.

(
Mr. Arens. Did you write the article appearing in the document
to which I was just alluding and which is now displayed to you?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer the question on the grounds of
Mr. Arens. Now we have still another document here, a list of
signers of a statement defending the Communist Party.
It appears by this article that the Communist Party is being
persecuted in the United States, and its constitutional rights are being
impeded, and apparently the rights of its free speech likewise. A
number of people sign a statement protesting the treatment of this
innocent little party. And in the list of people here who are defend-
ing the Communist conspiracy we see Aubrey Grossman of San Fran-
cisco, Calif.
Kindly look at that and tell the committee whether or not you
recall that enterprise of yourself.
(See exhibit No. 58e, appendix, p. 7192.)
Mr. Grossman. What was the question?
Mr. Arens. Did you sign the statement whicli appears there?
Mr. Grossman. I did.
Mr. Arens. Thank you sir. At whose solitation did you sign it?
Do you recall ?
Mr. Grossman. I have no recollection whatsoever.
Mr. Arens. Now I would like to innate your attention to still an-
other document.
Mr. Grossman. Just a minute. I wonder if this may be introduced
in the record.
Mr. Arens. We have a general order, Mr. Grossman, for all of these
documents to be introduced in the record.
Mr. Grossman. Thank you. Would you like to read it ?
Mr. Arens. The next one I will read and we will introduce it in the
record, too.
Mr. Grossman. Would you like this read ?
Mr. Arens. Did I give a fair summary of it ?
Mr. Grossman. Would you like me to read it ?
Mr. Arens. No. It takes too much time. I am not taking time
to read all of this.
Mr. Grossman. You don't want to read it ?
Mr. Arens. I would suggest not.
Mr. Grossman. Mr. Chairman, may I read it in the record ?
Mr. Arens. It will all be in the record.
Mr. Grossman. All of it is going in the record, but still a good deal
of it has been read by counsel.
Mr. Arens. My mistake. You take issue with me ?
Mr. Grossman. Does the committee not want me to read this in
the record ?
Mr. Doyle. It will all go in the record. I will assure you of that.
—
Mr. Grossman. May I read it in the record ?

Mr. Doyle. There is no sense in taking 20 or 30 minutes.
Mr. Grossman. It won't take that long.
Mr. Doyle. We will get it all.
Mr. Grossman. Perhaps the press is interested in the statement.
Mr. Doyle. The press can have it and read it. They can use it right
now if they want. Put it over on their table. They can get it.
Mr. Arens. Go ahead and put these others over there, too, please.
Now I want to invite your attention to this one, and see if you want
to take time on this one.
I will read a good deal of this one. It is short. We can cover this
one pretty quickly.
Grossman to Head Coast Civil Rights Congress.
This is in the Daily Worker of January 1949.

Aubrey Grossman, 37-year-old attorney who left an important law practice
to educate and organize in the struggle for human rights, has been appointed
Pacific Coast Director for the Civil Rights Congress.
Grossman, who has been associatetl intimately with the battle for civil
rights in California for more than a decade, said today, upon announcement
of his appointment, his first job will be coordination of the campaign to defend
the twelve indicted Communist leaders whose trial opens in New York January 17.
His biggest civil rights case was the deportation case of Harry Bridges, which
he feels is "a landmark in establishing the rights of non-citizens and the con-
stitutional rights of aliens in general." He also helped establish the invalidity
of autipicketing ordinances and represented hundreds of union members in cases
arisin;;- out of the labor struggles of the 1930's.
Versatile (he played halfback and fullback for UCLA in 1929, 1930, and 1931),
Grossman was one of the founders of the Bay Area Council Against Discrimina-
tion and of its successor, the Council for Civic Unity. He was chairman of the
Lawyers Committee that drew Governor Olson's legislative program in 1939.
He was an active member of the Simon J. Lubin Society, an organization in-
terested in the State's agricultural problems.
He left his law practice in 1915
and I want to emphasize the last couple of lines now, if you please,
sir.
He left his law practice in 1945 to become a full-time officer of the Communist
Party of San Francisco.
Now would you kindly look at that article and see if that is a
true
I don't mean to be throwing it at you, Counsel. I am trying to get
it over this wire liere.
Mr. Dreyfus. I appreciate your difficulty here.
Mr. Arens. Kindly look at that article and see if that is a true and
correct biography of your principal activities in the course of the last
several years.
Mr. Arens. Now here is another article that is rather interesting.
It is about the FBI. You know what the FBI is, do you not, Mr.
Grossman ? That is the intelligence
Mr. GuossMAN. The answer is yes.
IMr. Arens. The intelligence agency.
Mr. Grossman. Yes.
—
" :
Mr. Arens. The greatest intelligence agency that ever existed.

Mr. Grossmax. Is that a question ?
If the FBI should bother you
The civil rights expert tells people what to do if this great FBI should
bother them.
This is in the Daily People's World of May 6, 1949.
If the FBI
Mr. DoYi.E. "V\ât was that, please ?
Mr. Arens. The title of this article is
If the FBI Should Bother You —Civil Rights Expert Tells What To Do
The Civil Rights Congress warned progressives today to beware Federal
Bureau of Investigation agents and their "investigations."
Aubrey Grossman, West Coast director of the congress, said that after thor-
ough discussion with attorneys, the congress was advising those approached by
the G-men to refuse to answer any questions.
"Any person these agents seeli to question or have a discussion with has the
right to refuse to talk to them
—
and so forth. I will not take time to read the entire article.
But do you have a recollection, as the west coast director of the
Civil Rights Congress, of issuing that little instruction to all of the
comrades with respect to how they should react to the FBI ?
Mr. Grossbian. I decline to answer the question on the gi-ounds
of the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Velde. Just a minute, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Grossman, did you know that you were being investigated by
the FBI?
Mr. Grossman. Did I know when ?
Mr. Velde. You said the FBI, what kind of an organization it was
in answer to a question by counsel.
Did vou know you were beine investigated by the FBI ?
Mr. Grossman. Are you telling me that I was ?
Mr. Velde. No. I am just asking you if you knew whether you
were or not.
I think you know that I know that you are a Communist and that
you were a Communist for a long time because I was a member of
the FBI stationed here in San Francisco back in the days when you
were doing all these things that were designed to destroy our Constitu-
tion.
Mr. Grossman. And what is the question ?
Mr. Velde. Did vou know that vou were being investigated by the
FBI?
fThe witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Scherer. When he issued that statement?
Mr. Velde. Yes. That is ricfht.
Mr. Grossman. The answer is "no."
Mr. Doyle. I think tho committee is fortunate to have Mr. Velde's
experience as a former FBI agent on the committee in attendance at
this hearing.
Mr. Arens. Here is a little thing. May I have that exhibit?
Mr. Dreyfus. This one?
: ?
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVEKSiON- 6907
Mr. Arens. Yes. Has he answered the question with reference to

this ?
Mr. Grossman. The answer is "no.'*

Mr. Arexs. Have you answered the question with reference to the
attack on the FBI?
Mr. Dreyfus. That was answered.
Mr. Grossman. I declined to answer tliat one.
Mr. Arens. Here is somethino: I have a Httle difficulty with. Maybe
.you can help us.
In this exhibit which I have just displayed to you, I see an attack
on the FBI with reference to informers and the like. Then I see here
this question posed under the authorship and byline of Aubrey Gross-
man. Pacific coast refjional director, Civil Rio;hts Congress.
Here is the question
Do Stool Pigeons Rate Civil Rights Defense?
Could I ask that question
In your opinion, do stool ])igeons rate any kind of civil rights?
Or are civil rights onlv for Conmiunists ?
( The witness confers with his counsel.)

]\[r. GRoss3rAN. The question is, Do stool pigeons rate civil rights
defense ?
Mr. Arens. That is right.

Mr. Grossman. The answer is that stool pigeons are generally per-
jurers, are generally paid perjurers, are people, no matter what line
they may tell on the stancl, who need not fear prosecution. And I
can give you the names and the dates and the cases if the committee
wishes to hear it.
Mr. Arens. Do you
Mr. Grossman. Just one minute. Let me finish my answer.
And I say that those people who will perjure themselves under oath
in order to put other Americans in jail or have them deported, who will
lie under oath for those purposes, cannot, under any stretch of the
imagination, deserve civil rights or have their civil rights defended.
As a matter of fact, their civil rights never can come mider attack.
Mr. Velde. "V^Hiat stool pigeon put you in the Communist Party?
Wliolied?
. Mr. Grossman. What are you assuming, Mr. Velde, in your ques-
tion ?
Mr. Velde. You just referred to stool pigeons that lie under oath.
Mr. Grossman. What is the question ?
Mr. Velde. During 1943 and 1944 and 1945, will you tell this com-
mittee whether or not you were a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Grossman. Is that the question now ?
Mr. Velde. Yes.
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
of the first and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Were you a stool pigeon against yourself here when you
wrote this little aiticlc about the comrades and "our party" and what
you are doin g as a comrade ? Were you a stool pigeon then ?
Just answer that question and help us on what is a stool pigeon,
and tell this committee now while you are under oath Avere you a stool
pigeon on yourself?
;
Mr. Grossman. The answer is, I was not a stool pigeon.

Mr. Arens. Were you telling the truth ?
Mr. Arens. I want to make a reference to a stool pigeon publication
namely, a publication which talks about stool pigeons, and which pub-
lication is written by Aubrey Grossman.
See if you can't help us now and tell us whether or not this publi-
cation and the author of this article was a stool pigeon when he told
stuff about a man by the name of Aubrey Grossman.
This article is in the Communist Daily People's World of July 20^
1949: "Do Stool Pigeons Kate Civil Rights Defense?" And it at-
tacks very vigorously certain Trotskyites.
The article is written by a man by the name of Aubrey Grossman,
Pacific coast regional director. Civil Rights Congress. We
have his
photograph here. And, so that you won't have any difficulty finding
it, we have underlined it.
Would you kindly tell the committee whether or not you wrote that
article?
Mr. DoTLE. Might I ask, Mr. Arens, does that article contend that
a stool pigeon does have civil rights?
Mr. Arens. It unmercifully attacks Trotskyites.
Mr. Doyle. I always thought that any American citizen, no matter
what he did, no matter who he v/as, had civil rights and had the right
to a defense in court or any place else. I always felt as a lawyer,
and I still feel, that, no matter who the person is, that it was a lawyer's
duty and privilege to represent tliat person to the extent of his civil
rights, whatever they are. I don't know that
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly answer the question then?
Mr. Grossman. I was deferring to the chairman. I decline to-
just 1 minute.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Grossman, I want to invite your attention to
still another dociunent. It is from the Daily People's World, July
3, 1950.
Grossman to Fill CRC Post in East
Aubrey Grossman, well-known West Coast labor attorney, will leave for New
York this week to take up his new duties as director of organization of the
Civil Rights Council.
Grossman expressed great sorrow at having to leave at the present

time his many friends here on the west coast and the like, and his pic-
ture appears there. He is going to new tasks.
Kindly look at that document and tell us whether or not that Com-
munist publication was a stool pigeon or whether or not what it tells
is true.
Mr. Grossman. Would you rephrase the question, please?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Kindly tell us whether or not that publication was a stool pigeon
or was it telling the truth when it said you were going there to the
east to assume your new responsibilities ?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer on the grounds of the first and
fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. I want to invite your attention to still another document.
This is just before the attack at Pearl Harbor, September 4, 1940.
It is the Communist Daily Worker in New York.
We see here the headline reading as follows : "GB Prominent Lawyers
Hit Draft un-American, un-Constitutional." And these 63
Bill as
lawyers are all part of an emergency peace mobilization, and they
go and protest to the House Military Affairs Committee. The sub-
head tells about prominent signers and participants in this emergency
peace mobilization, including one Aubrey Grossman.
Kindly tell us if you recall your participation in that enterprise.
(The Avitness examines document and confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Gross]max. I decline to answer the question on the grounds of
Mr. Arens. You will observe
Mr. Grossman. Wait a minute. Excuse me. And the additional
grounds that it violates my right to engage in legislative activities
under the protection of the first amendment and the ninth amendment
of the Constitution.
Mr. Arens. You were strong for peace and strong for disarma-
ment here on September 4, 1940. Do you recall any change in your
position after Hitler attacked the Soviet Union?
Mr. Arens. Now we see here still another document from the Daily
Worker in 1953.
We are moving along and won't take too much longer, Mr. Gross-
man.
It seems, according to this article, 302 delegates lay plans for a big
May Day parade in New York Cit}'. Among those who are leadei^
in the arranginents, is one Aubrey Grossman of the Civil Riglits
Congress down there. They are going to have a big May Day
parade to coincide Avith the May Day in Moscow.
—
Mr. Arens. Now did you answer the question ?
Mr. Grossman. Was there a question? I thought it was a speech.
Let's have it read back.
Mr. Arens. Why
don't you make a speech and tell us whether or not
you were one of the leaders in this May Day parade in New York City?
We don't want to interfere with your freedom or right to petition
Congress or anything else. You just tell us now. Did you do that?
fifthamendments.
Mr. Arens. I have still another exhibit from the Communist Daily
People's World: Meet the People Around the Bay, with -reference to
the Council for American-Soviet Friendship and one of its big affairs.
Among those who wêre participants in the activities of the Council for
American-Soviet Friendship is Aubrey Grossman.
— : :
Kindly look at that document and see if it refreshes your recollec-

tion with reference to your participation in that affair.
(Document marked ""Exhibit No. 598," see appendix, pp. 8163, 8164.)
fifth amendments.
Mr, Arens. Now I have a document here from the Daily People's
"World about a symposium of the California Labor School and one of
the big forums is going to be on the development of American democ-
racy along certain lines. Participating is going to be Aubrey Gross-
man, attorney for the CIO, member of the legal staff of the National
Association for Advancement of Colored People, and member of the
Council for Civic Unity of San Francisco.
Kindly look at this document and see whether or not you were hon-
estly and accurately identified there in thise symposium at the Cali-
fornia Labor School.
fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Here is something that is a little curious. We have
here another exhibit from the Communist Daily People's World. It
has a quotation from the father of this country, George Washington
Promote then as an oJiject of primary importance, institutions for tlie general
diffusion of l^nowleclge. In proportion as the structure of a government gives
force to public opinion, it is essential that public opinion should be enlightened.
Apparently that is from his Farewell Address. That is here at the

top of the picture. Below that picture we see the following
Leaders in the arts, professions, as well as the vital-to-labor trade-union field,
make the faculties of the State labor schools outstanding among American edu-
cational institutions. Shown above are (left) Aubrey Grossman, labor attorney
and expert in civic affairs, who'll teach at the San Francisco school
then they tell about others wlio are going to teach at the California
Labor School in Snn Francisco.
Kindly look at this document and see if you recollect your profes-
sorial activities as recounted there in that Daily People's World.
(Tlie witness examines document and confers with his counsel.)
fifthamendments.
IMr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of Gregori Kheifets?
Mr. Grossman. I would ask the committee whether that man is, in
the committee's opinion, affiliated or was affiliated with Communist
groups.
Mr. Arens. Not only that, he has been identified as an espionage
agent. Do you know him ?
the fifth amendment.
]Vfr. Arens. Are you now a member of the Communist conspiracy?
('The witness confers with his counsel.)
the first amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that concludes the

staff interrogation of this witness.
]\Ir. DoTLE. ]Mr. Velde. any questions?
Mr. Velde. Yes, I have several questions.
Mr. Grossman, did you know Gregori Kheifets?
Mr. Velde. Did .you know that he was the Eussian consul ?
the fif til amendment.
Mr. Velde. Did you knoAv Steve Nelson ?
Mr. Velde. T don't think I will be violating the lawyer-client priv-
ilege in asking this question :
What other clients have you represented who have been charged
with violation of any of our internal-security laws besides Mr. Harry
Bridges?
that it violates the attorney-client privilege.
jVfr.Velde. Noav m.ay I ask you another question.
"What do you expect to gain in the future by being a member of
the Communist Party or member of the Comnninist conspiracy?
Mv. Grossman. I decline to answer that question on the ground
that it violates my rights under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Velde. Do you know Louise Bransten, now Louise Berman?
of the fifth amendment.
]Mr. A'elde. Did you, on May 12, 1944, attend a meeting between
Gregori Kheifets, yourself, and John Tripp McTernan, M-c-T-e-r-
n-a-n, at the home of Louise Bransten here in San Francisco?
Mr. Grossman. I decline to answer that c[uestion on the grounds
Mr. Velde. Mr. Chairman, I don't have any more questions to ask
of this witness except to say this much, that I am satisfied that Mr.
Grossman has been identified, and I can identify him, as a former
member of the Communist Party. I am satisfied that he is a member
of the Communist Party at the present time by his demeanor in an-
swering the questions here. As a professional man, I am satisfied that
Mr. Grossman is very dangerous to the internal security of our coun-
try. I hope that the FBI and all the other security agencies that we
have investigating acts that are designed to overthrow our form of
government continue to be on the alert on Mr. Grossman.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Scherer, any questions or statement?
]\rr. Scherer. No statement.
You are now a practicing lawyer here ?
Mr. (trossman. That is correct.
Mr. Doyle. May I be privileged to just take a minute.
Are you a member of the American Bar Association?
Mr. Grossman. Xo, sir.
Mr. Doyle. I wish to say that your declaration here, that, because
a man was a stool pigeon, in your "judgment he loses civil rights
:
Mr. Grossman. I didn't say that. I said his civil rights should not
be defended. I said they could never come under attack.
Mr. ScHEREU. He couldn't invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Grossman. He wouldn't.
Mr. ScHERER. He shouldn't have the right.
Mr. Grossman. He wouldn't.
Mr. Doyle. In other words, for instance, under your declaration of
principle as a leader of the Civil Rights Congress in the San Francisco
area, if, in your judgment, a man was a stool pigeon and appeared
before this committee, he wouldn't have the right to advice by an
ethical lawyer to plead either the first or fifth amendments because
you said he wouldn't have a right to defend his civil rights.
I sharply disagree with you. That is a surprise to me. It is a sur-
prise to me that that is the position of the Civil Rights Congress.
I am more afraid of it than I was before.
(Representative Gordon H. Scherer left the hearing room.)
j\Ir. Doyle. I wish to say as an ximerican Congressman, we take the
position, every American citizen, whether he be a stool pigeon or not,
has certain inalienable rights under our constitutional law.
Now, for instance, article I that you plead says
Congress shall make no law respecting or abridging the freedom of speech
or of the press.
And that applies to a stool pigeon as well as anyone else in our book.
And then under article V of the Constitution, which you plead:
No person shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against
himself.
Under your premise, a stool pigeon would not be permitted to be

defended by counsel.
Mr. Grossman. Mr. Doyle, I said you have a right to defend a stool
pigeon. I won't.
Mr. Doyle. No, you didn't say that. At least the record will show
what you said.
Mr. Grossman. Let me make my position clear, if it isn't.
Mr. Velde. You will defend members of the Communist conspiracy,
however, won't you, Mr, Grossman?
Mr. Grossman. I will defend anyone whose civil rights are attacked.
I say a stool pigeon's civil rights are incapable of being attacked.
He is alwajrs a friend of those and a friendly witness for those who are
attacking civil rights.
Mr. Doyle. Well, at any rate, I wouldn't feel comfortable presid-
ing over this subcommittee and have a report go back to my colleagues
in Congress showing that we sat in the presence of a lawyer who had
made that declaration of fundamental premise without countering it.
Mr. Velde. I certainly concur with you.
Mr. Doyle. I wouldn't think of it. It is abhorrent to me as a mem-
ber of the bar and as a Congressman.
Now the reason I asked whether or not you were a member of the
American Bar Association is that you pleaded the constitutional privi-
lege. And, assuming that it is in good faith, you should do it. That
is my position no matter who you are. If your plea is in good faith,
you ought to plead it whether you are a stool pigeon or not, if it is in
good faith and in accordance with the first and fifth.
: — : — — —
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 69 13^
Don't misunderstand this committee. We

take the position that the
Communist Party has a right to petition Congress. True. believe We
they should do it in their own name instead of under some phony desig-
nation so that Congress doesn't know that it is the Communist Party.
Even the Communist Party has rights which we are obligated to
uphold and will uphold.
American Bar Association before the
I refer to the brief of the
Supreme Court of the United States in the October term, 1955, in the
case of the Communist Party of the United States, petitioner, versus
Subversive Activities Control Board. And I think, in view of the wit-
ness' declaration, I sliould read just a couple of paragraphs of this.
I think that tliis brief represents probably the thinking of the rank
and file of the American bar.
I quote
Congress Has the Duty and the Power To Enact Laws To Safeguard thb
Security and Welfare of the Nation
There is no purpose or power in government more fundamental than the pro-
tection of the Nation from invasion, domination, or subversion.
The power of Congress to protect our people embraces every phase of national
security. The duty of self-preservation must be exercised within the framework
of the Constitution. The duty and the power of the Congress have well been
restated by this court in Dennis v. United States (341 U. S. 494, by Chief Justice
Vinson at p. 501 * * *). ;
Tliere can be no individual rights or freedoms without national security.
*******
In the light of existing conditions, the Congress would have been derelict in
its duty had it not enacted legislation within its power deemed by it adequate
to protect the national welfare. The country was entitled to protection not —
alibis or epitaphs.
The act is constitutional.

In order to consider the first amendment
I call this to the witness' attention for the record
In order to consider the first amendment and due process questions as applied
to petitioner
parenthetically, the Communist Party of the United States

it must be done in the proper setting.
Then I read on page 7

In this setting, we turn to the
first amendment question.
The Communist Party-petitioner's contention that the act violates its freedom
of speech under the first amendment is without merit. Section 1 of the act
eliminates any basis for such argument.
I5y no sane or sound construction of the act can it be deemed to control free-
dom of thought or of speech or to apply to radical espousal or radical organiza-
tions unless they n\< .it fr:»iH the foi'citai douiination of the Comimuiist move-
—
ment. No organization and no individual however radical but not so domi-
—
nated is encompassed by this act. Nor is any person or organization prevented
from advocating any change, however far reaching, however unsound, however
obnoxious, through change in our Constitution.
Article V of the Constitution provides one of the greatest of all rights possibly
—
even the greatest that of the people to effect any change in our Government
—
by the adoption of appropriate amendment to the Constitution. Orderly change
in the (iovernnient by choice of the people is not one of the basic concei)ts of
conununism, which espouses rather subversion and violent revolution. In no
country that communism dominates has it achieved power by the free choice of
its people —not even in Russia.
I thought it very appropriate, in view of this witness' statement and

the pleas of other people that this committee is violating the freedom
of speech, that we read this because this is right from the horse's
mouth so far as lawyers in America are concerned, the American Bar
Association, in the subject matter of the appearance of the Commmiist
Party of the United States before the Subversive Activities Control
Board in October, last year.
Mr. Doyle. May the witness be excused, I will ask, as far as counsel
is concerned.
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir.
Mr. Doyle. The witness is excused.
Thank you, counsel, for your cooperation.
Mr. Arens. William Heikkila, please come forward.
Mr. Helkkila. That's right.
TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM HEIKKILA, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,

LLOYD E. McMUEKAY
Mr. xIrens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.
Mr. Heikkila. ISIy name is William Heikkila. I. live in San Fran-
cisco. My occupation is draftsman.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today, Mr. Heikkila. in response to
a subpena which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-
American Activities ?
Mr. Heikkila. Yes.
Mr. Arens. May I spell your name so the record is correct, and you
can correct me wrong.
if it is
••-^-^^^
-^
H-e-i-k-k-i-1-a, Heikkila? .:v...^>r
•••
Mr. Heikkila. That is right.
Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel Mr. Heikkila ?
,
Mr. Heikkila. lam.

Mr. McMtjrray. Lloyd E. McMurray, 785 Market Street in San
Francisco.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Heikkila, are you connected with the Northern Cal-
ifornia Committee for Protection of Foreign Born?
Mr. Heikkila. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
that it violates my rights of the first amendment and also, I feel, on the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Heikkila, we have a signature card on the Bank
of America for the Northern California Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born, on which your sij2:nature appears, William Heikkila, as
chairman of the Northern California Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born.
:
COMMtTNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6915
Would you kindly look at that signature card and be good enough
to identify that signature as an authentic reproduction of your own
signatured
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 600a," see appendix, p. 8165.)
(Representative Gordon H. Scherer returned to the hearing room.)
Mr. Heikkila. I decline to answer on the same grounds as the last
question.
]SIr, Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that if, as, and
when this witness affixes his signature to a voucher for his per diem,
that part of the document bearing his signature be incorporated in the
record.
!Mr. Doyle. It is so ordered.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 600b," see appendix, p. 8166.)
Mr. Arexs. Mr. Heikkila, I invite your attention to a document re-
produced from an article appearing in a press publication
Aid to Aliens, Group Picks 24 Directors.
With reference to a 24-member board of directors of the Northern
California Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, including
yourself as one of the members of this board of directors.
Kindly look at this document and tell us whether or not that is true
and correct.
(Jôcument marked "Exhibit No. 601," see appendix, p. 8167.)
Mr. jNIcMurray. Do you know the date of this document ?
Mr. Arens. 1940. In the San Francisco Chronicle.
Mr. Heikkila. My answer is the same as previously stated.
I have a copy of the Communist Daily People's World of 1940
on August —
"Committee Set Up for Foreign Born,"- listing a
•''>0
—
number of people who have participated in the setting up of a com-
mittee called the Northern California Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born, including William Heikkila, identified as of the Finnish
Club, Western District Committee.
Kindly look at this document, if you please, sir, and see if you can
tell us whether or not the facts there are true and correct.
Mr. Heikkila. Same answer.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Heikkila, I want to exhibit to you a card of the
Fifth Annual Southern California Conference To Protect the Rights
of Foreign Born [Americans] held at the Alexandria Hotel in March
1955, in Los Angeles, bearing handwritten "William Heikkila," repre-
senting the Northern California Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born.
Kindly look at that document and see if you can't k.elp this com-
mittee by telling us whether or not you were he and in attendance
representing the Northern California (Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born.
document and confers with his counsel.)
(Tlie witness examines
: : ) :
Mr. Heikkila. I decline to answer on tlie same grounds.

Mr. Arens. I have a certified copy here of a document signed
by you and in the custody and control of the Immigration and
Naturalization Service on a form for petition for naturalization.
In tliis form we see the following
Question No. 26
During the last 10 years I have been a member of the following organizations
International Workers Order, United Office and Professional Workers, Federa-
tion of Architects, Engineers, Chemists, and Technicians, CIO — Communist
Party.
Kindly look at this document and tell us whether or not that is a
true and correct representation or reproduction of a document which
you signed in your application for naturalization.
(Document marked "Plxhibit No. 604,"' see appendix, pp. 8169-8173.)
Mr. Heikkila. I decline on the same grounds as previously.
Mr. Arens. Where were you born ?
Mr. Heikkila. I was born in Finland.
Mr. Arexs. When did you come to the United States ?

Mr. Heikkila. 1906.
Mr. Arens. Were you naturalized as a citizen ?
Mr. Heikkila. I have not yet been naturalized.

Mr. Arens. Are you now a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Heikkila. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will conclude
Mr. Velde. How old were you when you came to this comitry ?
Mr. Heikkila. 21^ months.
JVIr. Velde. You came here with your parents ?
Mr. Heikkila. Yes, sir.
—
Mr. Velde. You have been here then AMien was it you came? In
1906?
Mr. Heikkila. 1906.
Mv. Velde. You have been here .50 years continuously. Or have
you made any trips back to Finland or other places outside of the
United States?
Mr. Heikkila. I decline to answer that on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Velde. You have been here that long and never made any at-
tempt to gain citizenship?
INTr. McÎiRRAY. Is that a question?
Mr. Velde. Yes. Is that right?
Mr. Heikkila. That is not correct.
Mr. Velde. Will you state what is correct then, please?
Îr. Heikkila. I have made several attempts to become naturalized.
Mr. Vfxde. What lias been the reason for 3'our not being able to
become a citizen?
(The witness confers with his connseL)
Mr. ITeikkila. I have made two attempts to become a citizen. The
first time I was unable to fnlfill my papers because of the fact that
I was wandering around the country during the depression. And my
papei's at the present time are not yet finislied.
Mr. Velde. You mean one application was made during the de-
pression. When was that made ?
Mr. Heikkila. I don't remember the exact date.
Mr. Velde. Did you actually file an application ?
Mr. Hetkkiea. Certainly.
Mr. Velde. I still can't understand why the application wasn't rec-
ognized, why it wasn't honored by the courts.
Mr. IIeikktla. The application, as far as I know, was recognized
and honored.
Mr. Velde. Then why is it necessary for you to file a new applica-
tion '?

Mr. Heikkila. Because the time expired on my first application.
Mr. Velde. I see. Now you are filing a new application at the
present time?
Mr. Heikkila. It is pending.
ISIr. Velde. On that application
have you answered the question as
to whether Go ahead.
Mr. iSlcMuKRAY. I think thei-e is no question pending now. I be-
lieve that we interrupted you.
Mr. Velde. No. I wanted him to confer with you.
On your present application have you answêred the question as to
whether you are a Communist Party member or not?
Mr. Heikkila. I decline to answer that on the grounds of the first
and fifth amendments.
Mr. Velde. That is all.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Scherer, any questions?
Mr. Scherer. Pursuing the line of questioning started by Mr. Velde,
I am wondering whether the application I have before me is your last
applicatioiL This is dated March 7, 1945. Is that your last appli-
cation ?
Mr. Heikkila. I decline to answer that on the same grounds.

Mr. Scherer. Now you said you made a number of applications.
I think the witness must answer.
Mr. Doyle. Yes. I think we are entitled to have a frank answer.
You made a statement that you made a number of applications.
Mr. Scherer has ijjiven you the date of the one before him. We are
certaiidy entitled in good faith to have a statement of the date of your
last application ; aren't we ?
Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer my
question.
85.^33 — 57— pt. 1 50

:
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer the question.

Mr. Heikkila. I have made no claim to have made a number of
applications.
Mr. Velde. I think the record will show that you didn't answer
my question that way.
He tried a number of times to become a citizen. He didn't say he
made application, but he said he tried a number of times to become a
citizen.
Mr. ScuERER. How many applications have you made ?
Mr. Heikkila. I feel like I wish to decline to answer the question,
on the basis of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Velde. I think he should be directed to answer that question,
Mr. Chairman.
Mr, Doyle. Yes. I thought he heard me direct him to answer that
question before.
If you didn't, I now direct you to answer that question as to how
many applications you have made for American citizenship.
Mr. Doyle. Wehave one for 1945. Are there any after that?
JNIr. Heikkila. I am standing on my privilege under the fi.fth
amendment.
Mr. Schekek. Didn't I uriderstand you to say before, Witness, that
you had attempted a number of times to become a citizen, and then
later you said you made 2 applications for citizenship, and 1 is pending
now?
Is my recollection of the testimony correct ?
Mr. Heikkila. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. ScHERER. You mean it would incriminate you to say now
whether that was your testimony before this committee ? How could
that possibly incriminate you ?
Mr. ScHERER. Nevertheless, that is my recollection of the testimony.
Mr. Doyle. I think it is correct, Mr. Scherer.
We might have to come back here tomorrow morning after we get
the public record and order you back again tomorrow morning be-
cause if you made application in San Francisco it is a public record.
Mr. Velde. In the meantime, Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest
this, that if he doesn't come back and if he hasn't filed the application
for citizenship, as he has testified he has so filed, there is a possibility
that he has committed perjury, and this record should be referred to
the Department of Justice.
Mr. Scherer. Let me ask you
It is my recollection, you said you made 2 applications and that
1 is now pending and hasn't been acted upon.
Were both of those applications made here in the San Francisco
area?
^The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Heikkila. I decline to answer that question on the same

grounds.
Mr. ScriERER. In this application you stated that you had not been
absent from the United States ? Is tliat the reason you feel that your
answer might tend to incriminate you ?
Mr. Heikkila. I believe in good faith that I may claim the fifth
amendment on this question.
Mr. Scheher. When you made this application on March 7, 1945,
liad you been absent from the United States prior to that date since
your first admission to this country ?
Mr. Heikkila. I must decline to answer that question on the same
grounds.
Îr. Scherer. Have you left the United States since the date of
making this application namely, March 7, 1945 ?
;

Mr. Heikkila. I must decline to answer this question on the same
grounds as previously.
Mr. Scherer. When you made this application on March 7, 1945,
did you tell the truth?
Mr. Heikkila, Same answer.
Mr. Arens. Do you mean to tell us today, sir, that you are refusing
to tell tliis committee whether or not you were telling the truth when
30U signed the affidavit on ]March 7, 1945, to this application?
Mr. Heikkila. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Scherer. I may not have it clear.
What did you say was the present status of your application for
citizenship ?

]V[r. Scherer. I should have been listening perhaps more attentively.
I didn't get what he said was the reason his application had not been
acted upon.
Mr. Velde. He refused to answer that on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. Did he ?
(The committee confers.)
Mr. Scherer. It is difficult to understand how an application could
be pending for 11 years. I was wondering whether there was a subse-
quent application.
Mr. Heikkila. I decline to answer that question on the same
grounds.
Mr. Scherer, Are you under deportation order now ?
Mr. Heikkila. Yes.
Mr. Scherer. Then that is the reason your application for citizen-
ship has been held up isn't it ?
;
(Tlie witness confei-s with his counsel.)

Mr. Scherer. Rather than the reason you gave us before.
(The witness confers with liis counsel.)
:
Mr. Heikkila. I think that question calls for some knowledge of

law, and I am not a lawyer.
Mr. Doyle. You have an able one by your side.
Mr. SciiEEER. Well, I can't go any further than that in my exami-
nation, not knowing whether this was the last ap])lication or the first
one he made. ^Nlaybe we can find out from Mr. Wheeler.
ISIr. Doyle. May I make this brief observation to the committee
while we are on that point
It seems to me that legislatively under Public Law 601 we ought to
consider whether or not we are going to recommend to the Immigra-
tion Committee some consideration of how many years a person, in
the judgment of the official United States, a committee of Congress or
of the Justice Department, after having his rights exhausted, can
stay in the United States under protracted applications for citizen-
ship. If this is the last one, Mr. Scherer, then this gentleman has
been here 11 years since his last application.
Assuming that the evidence before us is true and correct, it is too
long in my book for a member of the Communist Party to be able to
stay in the United States if he is an alien, after he has been identified
as a Communist. That is the Avay I look at it, sir. We ought to look
into that in the field of legislation.
Proceed, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Cleophas Brown, kindly come forward.
Mr. McMuRRAY. Is the witness excused?
Mr. Doyle. Yes, the witness is excused.
Mr. Arens. Remain standing, please, while the chairman admin-
isters an oath to you, Mr. Brown.
Mr. DoYLE. Please raise your right hand and be sworn.
Do you solemnl}^ swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and noth-
Mr. Brown. Yes.
Mr. DoTLE. Thank you. Be seated.
TESTIMONY OF CLEOPHAS BEOWN, ACCOMPAmED BY COUNSEL,

LAWRENCE SPEISER
Mr. Arens. Please identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-
pation.
Mr. Brown. My name is Cleophas Brown. I live in Richmond,
Calif. I work in construction.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena which
was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American Activi-
ties?
Mr. Brown. Yes.
(Representative Harold H. Velde left the hearing room at this
point.)
Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel ?
Mr. Brown. I am.
Mr. Arens. Will counsel kindly identify himself.
Mr. Speiser. Lawrence Speiser, staff counsel, American Civil Liber-
ties Union of Northern California.
Mr. Akexs. Are you connected with the Los Angeles Committee
ior Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr, Broavn. No.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been connected with the Los Angeles
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Brown. I refuse to answer that under the right and privileges
granted to me under the fifth amendment, as well as my right to free
spe(?ch and to rhe right to aspemblo, to petition the Government, the
privilege granted to me under the first amendment of the Constitu-
tion of the L'nited States.
Mr. Arens. Xow we display to you a letterhead of the Los Angeles
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, of February 1954, and an-
otlier one of August 1954, in which your name appears as one of
the officials of the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born.
Kindly look at that and tell this committee, if you would, please,
sir, ifyou are appropriately and properly identified there.
(See exhibits Nos. 464 and 4P>3, appendix, pp. 7898 and 7858.)
Mr. Brown. What are you referring to here ?
Mr. Arens. The letterhead where your left thumb is, about where
your name appears.
Mr. Brown. LTnder the list of sponsors ?
Mr. Arens. That is right yes. Do you see your name there ?
;
Mr. Brown. I decline to respond to the question, based on the rights

I have previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of Charles David
Blodgett?
Mr. Brown. At the expense of appearing repetitious
Mr. Brown. I wish to decline on the rights and privileges I have
heretofore stated.
_Mr. Arens. Charles David Blodgett took an oath before this com-
mittee December 3, 1953, and he identified you as a member of the
Communist conspiracy. Was Blodgett lying or was he telling the
truth?
Mr. Brown. I refuse to associate myself wîth tliat testimony on
the grounds that it would tend to incriminate myself to respond to it.
Mr. Arens. Now I have here in my hand the proceedings of the
Southern California Conference To Defend the Eights of Foreign
Born [Americans] held in Los Angeles in 1953 under the auspices of
the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. A num-
ber of people are listed here to give reports of various committees, in-
cluding Cleophus (Cleophas) Brown.
Please look at this document and tell this committee while you are
under oath w^hetheryou aretlie Cleophus (Cleophas) Brown w^ho made
that report before the Los Angeles Committee for Protection of For-
eign Born in that conference.
Mr. ScHERER, What was the date of that memorandum ?
) ) )
Mr. Arens. What is the date on there, Counsel ?

Mr. Speiskr. February 7, 1953.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 605," see appendix, pp. 8174-8177.)
( The witness examines document and confers with his counsel.
Mr. Arens. Could you help us by seeing if that document refi'eshes

your recollection ?
Mr. Brown. I decline same grounds as previously.
;
Mr. Arens. Now I lay before you a photostatic copy of the letterhead
of the Los Angeles chapter of the National Negro Labor Council, presi-
dent Cleophus (Cleophas) Brown.
Look at this document and see if you are properly designated, and
tell this committee while you are under oath whether or not that
document truly and correctly and accurately represents the facts.
Mr. Brow^n. I decline under my privileges granted under the first
and fifth amendments.
Mr. Arens. Now I have a document, the Communist Dailv People's
World.
The Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born today announced
a conference on the campaign to repeal the AValter-McCarran law and defend
victims of the legislation.
Joining in the sponsorship of tliis conference, according to this pub-
lication is Cleophus (Cleophas) Brown.
Please look at the publication and tell this committee while vou
are under oath if you are accuratelv described there in that enterprise.
( See exhibit No. 439, appendix, p. 7863.

]\fr. Brown. I decline on the same grounds I previously mentioned.
Mr. Scherer. Witness, this letterhead of the Los Angeles Commit-
tee for Protection of Foreign Born, dated February 15, just last
year, 1955 you are listed on that letterhead as one of the sponsors of
:
the organization.
Was the organization last year listing you improperly as a sponsor?
Mr. Scherer. Because you have testified you are not now a member
of the comm.ittee.
Mr. Brown. I decline to respond to that question or any other prior
associations on the grounds I have heretofore stated.
Mr. Scherer. Were you a member of the Los Angeles Committee
for Protection of Foreigii Born last year?
(The witne^ss confers with his counsel.)
IMr. Scherer. You state you are not as of this moment.
Mr. Brown. Under the pain of continuing to be repetitious, I am
forced to decline on the grounds I have already stated.
Îr. Scherer. Last week were you a member ?
Mr. Broavn. The same answer.
Mr. Scherer. Were you a member at the time, or were you a sponsor
of tlie Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born on the
date that you received your subpena to testify before this committee?
. :
Mr. Brown. I decline on the same grounds that I have heretofore

stated.
Mr. Arens. Now I have three documents I want to exhibit to you
an invitation to a reception for the Northwest Smith Act De-
Firet, is
fendants, April 4, 1953. Among the sponsoi-s of this group is listed
Cleophas Browni, president, National Negro Labor Council.
(See exhibit No. 441, appendix, pp. 7865.)
Mr. Areks. The second document is a reproduction of an article in
the Daily People's World of April lOoO, with reference to an East
Bay Civil Rights Congress supporting the Communist Party May
Day rally there. It shows the pledge of support by Cleophas Brown,
identified as executive secretary to the CRC
chapter.
Mr, Arens. The third document is a Nonpartisan Committee for
Clemency for the Rosenbergs, and among the sponsors of this com-
—
mittee Cleophas Brown.
(Document marked 'Exhibit No. 608," see appendix, p. 8180.)
INIr. Arexs. Look at those three documents and tell this committee
if you are accurately and properly identified in those documents.
(The witness examines documents and confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Broa\'n. ]Maybe I can save some time by declining to respond to
any of the documents on the grounds heretofore stated.
Mr. Arexs. Also in the Dail}^ World of December 21, 1945, we see
Cleophas Brown identified as the circulation manager for the Daily
People's World in Richmond.
(Representative Harold 11. Velde returned to the hearing room ar
this point.)
Mr. Arexs. Kindly look, first, at this one document about the fight
against anti -Communist legislation, and, secondly, this document
with respect to your identification as circulation manager of the
Communist Daily People's World in Richmond, and tell this com-
mittee if you are accurately and appropriately described.
(The Avitness examines documents and confers with his counsel.)
]Mr. Browx. I decline to ansvrer; the same grounds I have hereto-
f o]-e claimed.
Mr. Arexs. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that concludes
the staff interrogation of this v.'itness.
Mr. DoTLE. Mr. Velde ?
Mr. Veij)e. No questions.
Mr. DoYi.E. ISIr. Scherer ?
Mr, Sgiierer.No questions.
Mr. DoTLE. No questions.
The witness is excused.
(Committee members present: Representatives Clyde Doyle, Harold
H. Velde and Gordon H. Scherer.)
Mr, Arexs, Mr, Arnautoff, A-r-n-a-u-t-o-f-f
Mr. Arnautoff, would you come forward, please, and remain stand-
ing while the chairman administers an oath to j'ou?
and nothing but the truth, so help you, God ?
Mr. Arxautoff. I do.
TESTIMONY OF VICTOR ARNAUTOIT, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,

NORMAN LEONARD
Mr. Akens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and oc-
cupation.
Mr. Arnautoff. Victor Arnautoff, Colma, Calif. artist-teacher.
;

was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American Ac-
tivities ?
Mr. Arnautoff. That is correct.

Mr. Arnautoff. That is right.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself?
Mr. Leonard. Norman Leonard, 240 Montgomery Street, San
Francisco.
Mr. Arens. Where is the establishment in which you teach ?
Mr. Arnautoff. Stanford University.
Mr. Arens. Do you teach at Stanford University now ?
Mr. Arnautoff. No. At present I am on leave of absence.
Mr. Arens. That is sabbatical leave ?
Mr. Arnautoff. That is right.
Mr. Arens. And where is it that you engage in your artist work ?
Mr. Arnautoff. I work at home.
Mr. Arens. What do you teach at Stanford when you do teach
there?
Mr. Arnautoff. Live drawing, painting. That is figure drawing,
elementary and advanced; painting and printing processes.
Mr. Arens. Are you on the staff at Stanford now but just in a leave
status ?
Mr. Arnautoff. That is correct.
Mr. Arens. "Wliere were you born ?
Mr. Arnautoff. I was born in Russia.
Mr. Arens. Where in Russia ?
Mr. Arnautoff. Ukraine.
Mr. Arens. And when?
Mr. Arnautoff. 1896.
Mr. Arens. When did you come to the United States ?
Mr. Arnautoff. First I came in 1925 as a student, and was a student
in California School of Fine Arts.
Mr. Arens. When did you last come to the United States?
Mr. Arnautoff. I believe it was in 1931.
Mr. Arens. Are you a citizen of the United States ?
Mr. Arnautoff. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. When did you obtain citizenship ?
Mr. Arnautoff. 1937.
Mr. Arens. Are you now a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Arnautoff. I decline to answer that question on the grounds
Mr. Arens. Do you know a person b}' the name of Dorothy M.
Jeffers, J-e-f-f -e-r-s ?
)

Mr. Arnautoff. Do you have any evidence that she is a member
of the Communist
Mr. Arens. You just tell us whether or not you know a Dorothy M.
Jeffers.
Mr. Arnautoff. In view of the fact that the committee didn't an-
swer my question. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the
witness be ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer that last question.
Mr. Arnautoff. I request the committee once more, the committee
tell me if this pei-son mentioned has afliliation, Communist affiliation.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I want the record to be absolutely sure •
that this witness is now ordered again to answer the question.

Mr. Doyle. I make that direction and order. Witness, again.
Mr. Arnautoff. In view of refusal of committee to make the state-
ment, I decline to answer the question on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. Now, Witness, do you know the person named by
counsel as a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Arens. Mr. Arnautoif Dorothy M. JefFers took an oath before
,
the Subversive Activities Control Board in January of this year, and

testified. She took an oath. She said, in effect, that while she was a
member of the Communist Party she knew you as a member of the
Communist Party, and that she attended Communist Party cell meet-
ings with you in which only Communists were admitted.
Was Dorothy M. Jeffers lying or was she telling the truth ?
(The witness confers with his counse].)
Mr. Arnautoff. I decline to answer the question on the grounds of
Mr. Arens. She said also that you attended the Marxist-Leninist
Institute. Was she lying about that or was she telling the truth ?
Mr. Arnautoff. I decline to answer on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
^
]Mr. Arens. Do you know anything about the California Labor
Scliool ? Have you ever been there ? The California Labor School ?
Mr. Arnautoff. Same answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Now this young lady, Dorothy M. Jeffers, said that
you were one of the persons affiliated there with the California Labor
School via the Marxist-Leninist Institute. Is that correct?
( The witness confers witli his counsel .
Mr. Arnautoff. I decline on the same grounds.

Mr. Arens. Now I want to invite your attention to certain docu-
ments. The first is the 24th [Annual] National Conference held under
. )
)
the auspices of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign

Born in Los Angeles, December 8 and 9, 1956. That is just a day or so
ago.
I have a list here of a number of people who are going to sponsor
—
this conference in Los Angeles we just came from there includ- —
ing Dr. Victor Arnautoff
Now I want you, while you are under oath, to tell this committee
if you were one of the sponsors of this conference lield in Los Angeles
just yesterday or day before yesterday.
(See exhibit VIII, appendix, pp. 8440-8405.)
^Vlr. Arens. Would you kindly answer the question.
Mr. Arnautoff. Just a minute.
The witness confers with his counsel.
(
• Mr. Arnautoff. I decline to answer that question, on the same

grounds.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Arens, could I interrupt right at that point, pleaSe.
Did you know that the executive secretary of the Los Angeles
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, the present executive
secretary, was convicted over 2 years ago before an American jury
in Los Angeles in the Federal court for violation of the Smith Act,
which deals with the advocacy and teaching of force and violence to
overthrow this Government ? Did you know that ? That is this com-
^
mittee that you apparently are a sponsor of, so far as the printed
literature is concerned.
( The Avitness confers with his counsel.
Mr. Arnautoff. I must decline to answer that question,

on the same
grounds of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. Do you think it would make any difference if he did?
Mr. DoTLE. I would think it would make a difference with a man of
this broad education, who was a sponsor of a committee for two
years and a half. He should be charged with knowledge, certainly as
a sponsor of this committee, that he is helping to raise money to pay
the salary of a convicted Communist in the United States courts.
Mr. SciiERER. It might make a difference with some individuals, but
this witness himself has been identified as a Communist.
Mr. DoYLE. Granted. But he is also on leave from a great univer-
sity. It should make a difference.
Mr. Arens. Is it Dr. Arnautoff?
Mr. Arnautoff. No. It is Mr. Arnautoff.
Mr. Arens. Are you sometimes alluded to as Dr. Arnautoff ?
Mr. Arnautoff. Not as far !\s T know.
Mr. Arens. See if this helps you.
This is an open proclamation by the American Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born. A number of people are protesting the
McCarran-Walter Immigration and Nationality Act, or the immigra-
tion laws, I should say, including Dr. Victor Arnautoff of San
Francisco.
Look at that and see if you recall joining in that enterprise.
^ See footnote, p. 6823.
)

(The witness examines document and confers with his counsel).
Mr. Arnautoff. I decline to answer that question on the same
grounds of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens, I lay before you a document, the Daily "Worker of April
1053. It has a picture of Senator McCarran there, whom I knew per-
sonally as one of the greatest patriots that this country ever produced.
The caption of this says: "McCarran Law Repeal Urged by 93
Notables. "* They have a list of things that these 93 notables want done
as announced by the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born.
Among those 93 notables who are urging the repeal of the Walter-
McCarran Act, is Dr. Arnautoff.
Look at that and see if vou recall joining in that enterprise on
April 3, 1953.
(See exhibit No. 344a, b, appendix, pp. 7710, 7711.)
Mr. Arxautoff. Would you mind to restate the question ?
Mr. Arens. Yes. Did you signi tliat letter ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.
of fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I have a letter that is addressed to Congressmen, It
is addressed to the then chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee
of the United States, and also to the then chairman of the House Judi-
ciary Committee, in "Washington, D. C, stating that there is an aroused
public sentiment against the "Walter-McCarran law that exists all over
the country, and, in widespread opinion, the law is racist, discrimina-
tory, and inhuman, and must be corrected and repealed.
Among those that signed this letter to the two committees of the
Congress is Dr. "Victor Arnautoff, San Francisco. Did you sign that
letter ?
(See exhibit No. 169a, appendix, p. 7400.)

The witness examines document and confers Avith his counsel.)
(
]\Ir. Arnautoff. I decline to answer that question on the same

grounds.
Mr. Arens. Now I have still another exhibit, the 20th Anniversary
National Conference of the American Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born, to be held in Chicago, bearing the name of "Victor
Arnautoff as one of the sponsors.
Look at this document and see if you could kindly verify the au-
thenticitv of vour identification there.
(See exhibit III, appendix, pp. 8303-8316.)
grounds.
'
Mr. Arens. Now the Daily People's World of October 1952, tells
about a committee that was formed to get bail for Martin Young, a
Citizens' Committee to Secure Bail for Martin Young. And it issues
a statement urging bail for this man. He was held on Ellis Island as
a Cômmunist. California signers, according to this, include Victor
M. Arnautoff.
Look at that and see if you recall signing that petition.

grounds.
Mr. Arens. Now I have still another one: "280 National Lead-
ersAsk Truman Amnesty for Jailed Communists.'-
The Communist Daily Worker of December 1952.
An appeal requesting the President to grant amnesty to the leaders of the
Communist Party convicted under the Smith Act has been made by 280 promi-
nent Americans.
Among those 28<> prominent Americans who made this appeal, ac-
cording to this publication, Daily Worker, isDr. Victor Arnautoff,
who is identified as the president of the Russian-American Society
in San Francisco.
Were you president of the Kussian- American Society in San
Francisco ?
(The witness confers with his counsel. )
grounds.
Mr. Arens. Now I have still another one: "S. F. Notables Score
Violation of Eights" in which a number of people are scoring the vio-
lation of rights because of witch hunts, the general tenor being that
the congressional committees, such as this committee, are engaged in
witch hunts when they are going out after Communists. Among those
that are doing all this scoring of the violation of rights are certain
professors, including Victor Arnautoff.
Look at this and see if you are one of those that were out to score
this committee and other committees because of their witch hunts.
(Se exhibit No. 526b, appendix, p. 8033.)
Mr. Arnautoff. Would you mind to restate the question ?
Mr. Arens. Is that you who signed that statement there?
Mr. Abnautoff. I decline to answer, on the same groimds.
Mr. Arens. For whom do you do this artistic work of yours? A
firm or establishment, corporation, or somebody that engages you to
produce these artistic creations ?
Mr. Arnautoff. I am free-lancer working for myself.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever worked for the government agencies here
in California, any government agencies ?
Mr. Arnautoff. I do not recall that I have.
Mr. Arens. Have your works been exhibited in the San Francisco
area by the San Francisco Art Commission ?
Mr. Arnautoff. Yes, it was.
Mr. Arens. I have here a photograph of one of your creative enter-
prises. It is with reference to the Vice President of the United States.
)
COMMUlSriST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6929
According to this article here, you had a little creative work of yours
in the artistic field of the Vice President, in which you show him
depicted here with a pumpkin in one hand and a mask over his face
and a smear brush in the other.
Can you tell us, now that you have been identified as a member of
the Communist Party, whether or not you authored or are the artist
who created that little work?
(Document marked ''Exhibit No. 613," see appendix, p. 8185.)
Mr. Sgiierer. They still resent the pumpkin papers, don't they ?
Mr. Arnautoff. Would you mind to restate the question?
Mr. Arexs. Xo. I would like to have it just like it is now.
In view of the fact that the record now shows that you have been
identified by a live witness under oath as a member of the Communist
conspiracy, would you now tell us: Are you the author, are you the
artist who created that little creative effort there? That picture is
the Vice President with a smear brush in his hand ?
Mr. Arxautoff. I made that picture appear.
Mr. Arexs. And at the time you wêre painting that picture were
you a member of the Communist conspiracy ?
Mr. Arnautoff. I decline to answer that question on the gi'ounds

Mr. Arens. And did you paint this picture smearing the Vice Presi-
dent of the United States under direction of the Communist Party of
the United States ?
(The witness confers wîth his counsel.
Mr. Arnautoff. I decline to answer that question, also on the same
grounds.
Mr. Arens. Are j'ôu at this instant a member of the Communist con-
spiracy ?
Mr. Arnautoff. Same answer same reasons.
;

clude the interrogation of this witness.
staff
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Velde, any questions?
Mr. Velde. I have no questions, but make the same observation I
did with reference to Mr. Grossman's testimony here.
— —
This witness Mr. Arnautoff has been a well-known Communist
here on the west coast for a long time. And I have had previous ex-
perience with him when I was an agent of the FBI here in the Bay
area back in 1943, 1944, and 1945.
Any professional man, as I said before, is in a position to do much
harm to our country, as I am sure this witness is, and he would do
harm to this country if he had the opportunity.
Mr. SciiERER. Did you receive any pay for drawing this cartoon
of the Vice President ?
Mr. Arnautoff. I did not receive any pay for drawing the picture.
) :
Mr. ScHERER. Did you get any compensation, either directly or

indirectly, from the Communist Party for drawing this picture?
Mr. Arnautoff. I don't know what "directly or indirectly" means.
Would you mind to restate your question specifically ?
Mr. ScHERER. Did you collaborate with anybody in the Communist
Party with reference to the drawing of this picture ?
Mr. Arnautoff. I made that picture myself, period.
Mr. Scherer. Did you have any discussion with any member of
the Comnmnist Party about the making of the picture ?
I didn't say that you didn't actually draw it.
Mr. Scherer. It is obvious that the Communist Party had a hand^
in addition to your Communist hand, in the preparation of that car-
toon.
The Communist Party has been after Dick Nixon ever since he un-
covered the pumpkin papers. It has been continuing until this very
moment by Communists such as you. They resented it when Nixon
as a member of this committee, uncovered their fair-haired boy
Alger Hiss, and the long list that followed him; those who attempted
to subvert the Government of the United States for a foreign power.
And you are continuing. We have always said it, and here is proof
of it.
Mr. Velde. I would like to ask did you get a personal satisfaction
out of drawing that smear picture ?
Mr. Scherer. Sure. Obviously. He got a personal satisfaction
out of it noAT. He thinks it is funny.
Mr. Doyle. Well, beneath the cartoon it says this
Drawn by Victor ArnautofC, Stanford University art instructor. It was
ordered removed from art exhibit.
I should think it would be.
Mr. Velde. How long have you been a professor at Stanford ?
—
Mr. Arnautoff. I have been in since 19 professor. I got a pro-
fessorship, I believe, during the war. I do not remember
Mr. V'elde. All your teaching experience ?
Mr. Arnautoff. All my teaching? The firet was summer session,
1937.
Mr. Scherer. Were you on the board that selected the artists for
this work of art in the post office that has been an undertaking?
( The w itness confers with his counsel.
Mr. Doyle. The WPA

artists. Was that it?
Mr. Scherer. AVhat did they call it?
Mr. Arnautoff. Yes, I was a member of the jury.
Mr. Scherer. A member of the jury that made the selection of the
artist who was to do the job? Or the artist who would do the job?
Ml'. Arnaitoff. Correct.
Mr. Arens. In this picture what is the significance of this pumpkin

that shows up in the work that you portrayed ?
(The witness confers with his counseh)
Mr. Arnautoff. I don't think that my work as an artist is the
proper concern of this committee.
Mr. Arens. Did you learn about this pumpkin through Communist
Part^- channels i
Mr. Arnautoff. I decline to answer that question on the ground of
Mr. ScHEREK. When did you say you were naturalized?
Mr. Arnautoff. I believe it was 1937.
Mr. ScHERER. And you were born in Russia.
I am going to suggest, if it has not already been done, that
the testimony of this witness be referred to the Department of Jus-
tice to consider the possibility of commencing denaturalization pro-
ceedings.
Mr. Velde. I certainly agree with you, and concur Avith you in that,
Mr. Scherer.
Mr. Doyle. Any other questions, Mr. Arens?
Mr. Arens. No thank you, sir.
;
j\Ir. Doyle, The witness is excused.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will con-
clude the staff interrogation of all witnesses at the San Francisco
hearings.
Mr. Doyle. Before the committee proceeds further. I want to take
about 2 minutes, and I feel it is appropriate. And I do hope that
you people will remain in your chairs just for a moment as a matter
of courtesy. It will be helpful to us. The committee is not yet ad-
journed, and we wôn't be more than 2 or 3 minutes.
I want to publicly thank, first, on behalf of the congressional com-
mittee, the distinguished Federal jurist. Judge Roche, in whose court-
room we have met, and his staff; the United States marshal in San
Francisco and his able staff the San Francisco Bay area press which
;
has been, as always, very courteous and cooperative with us in trying

to get the facts tlie gentlemen in the room who have been in control
;
of the communications system; the local police and also the local
sheriff's office as well as the other police officials in this area who have
cooperated with us.
I want, also, to commend the members of the bar who appeared be-
fore us yesterday and today. And it is a might happy situation we
find ourselves in, able to commend every member of the bar who has
a])])eared l)efore us for his cooperation with the rules of the committee,
I think with the exception of one.
Mr. Scherer. I was going to say I don't concur.
Mr. Doyle. And I wish to say that the committee has specifically
noted times when members of the San Francisco bar, in the chair by
their witnesses, have deliberately cooperated, that their witnesses
might be brief and yet protect his rights, and also that the witness
might observe the rules of the committee. We appreciate that, mem-
6932 COMRIUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
bers of the bar, because all three of us are members of the bar in our
respective States.
These hearings of a subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American
Activities have impressed the subcommittee as among the most con-
structive we have had during this current series of investigations.
The testimony of customs officials who appeared here, together with
that of Mr. Caldwell, demonstrates further the concerted global
Connnunist propaganda campaign being directed against the people
of the United States within the United States as to their constitutional
form of government.
It is apparent that legislative action must be undertaken to require
labeling of the flood of Communist propaganda that is coming into
this country, the distribution of which is being financed to a consider-
able extent by the subsidies of the American taxpayers.
The information which we have received here shows the problem is
an extremely extensive one and that the west coast of the United States
ranks with the east coast as the target for subversive Communist
material.^
We have also received testimony that confirms further the nation-
wide pattern of Communist political subversion directed against
the security laws of the United States. Sworn testimony of the wit-
nesses before this committee during the past 2 days shows conclusively
again that the Communist Party in the United States has no concern
with the genuine merits of Federal legislative statutes or action but
is seeking solely to enlist the American people in a fraudulent cam-
paign through Communist Party fronts which would, if successful,
denude our Nation of every legal and constitutional defense it has
against the subversive consoirators who serve the Kremlin.
And at this point may I interpolate and say I certainly want to em-
phasize how very much we appreciate the cooperation of the listening
public who have been in the courtroom with us yesterday and today.
I want you to know that we appreciate yoiu* cooperation with the
committee in order that the witnesses and counsel could be heard.
It is tragically apparent that there exists a number of American
citizens who would deliberately pervert our democratic procedures in
the enterprise of international Communist conspiracy. It is absolutely
necessary that the Congress of the United States can recognize and be
able to know who all the people are and all the interests are who peti-
tion the United States Congress so we can identify their respective
interests and, by being able to do so, legislate more intelligently and
with more justice and so we can separate those who have patriotic mo-
tivês under our laws and institutions and who defend and perpetuate
the American constitutional form of government as distinguished
from those who knowingly are subservient to the subversive, diabolical,
Communist international conspiracy to disregard and destroy con-
stitutional privileges and for changing our United States Constitution
which guarantees our American civil rights, and substitute therefor,
as our high courts have uniformly held, a foreign Communist dictator-
ship under the control of a foreign Soviet ideology which is now and
for several weeks last past has been actually murdering thousands of
Hungarian men and women and children seeking freedom from the
international Communist control.
'
Propaganda — —
See Investigation of Communist Propaganda in the United States Part 3 (Foreign
Entry and Dissemination in San Francisco, Calif., Area) December 10-11,
1956.
:
The committee stands in adjournment.

Mr. Velde. Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Doyle. Yes, sir.
Mr. Velde. May I make a few very brief remarks, please?
Mr. Doyle. Go ahead.
Mr. Velde. First of all, I want to compliment you, Mr. Doyle,
for your extreme fairness and courtes}'^ shown to all witnesses here,
and the tolerance that you have had, and which you have maintained
throughout these committee hearings.
I want to say that it lias been nice to be back in San Francisco again.
I haven't been here siiu e 1953 when we held our hearings here before,
as you remember.
Mr. Doyle. I do.
Mr. Velde. And I appreciate the courtesy of the people of San
Francisco shown the committee.
I want to say to Mr. Scherer that I have certainly enjoyed serving
on this committee with him liere and in Los Angeles and in Chicago.
As you know, I have chosen not to run for reelection, and will not
be with you again when you convene in the 85th Congress. But I do
ask, for the good of America, that you continue the great work —
and this goes for all the rest of the members of the Committee on Un-
—
American Activities that has thus far so nobly been advanced.
Especially, Mr. Scherer, as you were mentioning this morning, I
think it is vital that legislation be passed so that witnesses like Lou
Goldblatt can be successfully prosecuted for contempt of Congress.
To me it is ridiculous and absurd that any witness before this com-
mittee can attack either the counsel or members of a committee, using
profanity, as this Lou Goldblatt has done.
Certainly, if he had been in a court of law, as we all know, he would
have been thrown in jail right now without benefit of further ar-
gument.
Then I would like to say this with respect to our committee counsel,
Kichard Arens and other members of the committee staff
He has, as we all are aware, great astuteness and legal ability, and
I want to compliment him on his patience in handling the witnesses
here today. I think he demonstrated that in handling the witness
Goldblatt very successfully; also Bill Wheeler and Don Appell, who
are the oldest in point of service as investigators of this committee.
As you know, Bill Wheeler has been out on the west coast for a number
of years. Through his friendliness and contacts with various intelli-
gence agencies, police officers, and United States marshals on the west
coast, he has done a great service to this community to bring informa-
tion that would enable this committee to operate more successfully.
And then to Jackson Jones, an investigator on this connnittoe, who
has been very instrumental in handling these San Francisco hearings,
and Richard Weil. They are also to be commended. And, fmalTy,
last but not least, to our very able reporter, Don Johnston, who I
imagine was frustrated a number of times.
85333— 57— pt. 1 51

Mr. ScHERER. I had not intended to say anything, but I came to the
Congress and this Committee on Un-American Activities when Harold
Velde was chairman of this committee during the 83d Congress.
Harold, I might say that this is the last committee session that you
are participating in as a Member of Congress. Needless to say, you
have rendered a tremendous service to the community and the Nation
during your membership on this Committee on Un-American
Activities.
I regret exceedingly, and I know both Republicans and Democrats
on this committee regret, that you have seen fit to leave the Congress:
The country owes you a great debt of gratitude for your splendid
service.
Mr. Doyle. May I cordially join Mr. Scherer in his remarks about
the gentleman from Illinois.
May I just say to you folks who are in the room with us, this is an
illustration of one of your committees functioning. I am a Democrat,
as you all know, and these two gentlemen to my left and right happen
to be members of the Republican Party. But there is no partisan line
in this committee. And this ought to be an illustration or demonstra-
tion of the fact that on this committee we have an American job to do
and not a partisan job to do, either as Democrats of Republicans.
The committee stands adjourned, and we go to Seattle tomorrow
morning.
Mr. Speiser. Are the witnesses excused ?
Mr. Doyle. The witnesses are all excused.
(Whereupon, at 5 10 p. m., the subcommittee was recessed, to be re-
:
convened at 10 a.m., Thursday, December 13, 1956, in the City-County

Building, Seattle, Wash. Committee members present: Representa-
tives Doyle, Velde, and Scherer.)
COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
THURSDAY, DECEMBER 13, 1956
United States Housp: of Representatives,

Subcommittee of the Committee on
Un-American Activities,
Seattle^ Wash.
PUBLIC HEARING
A subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met,

pursuant to recess at 10 a. m., in the Council Room, County-City
Building, Seattle, Washington, Hon. Clyde Doyle (chairman of the
subcommittee) presiding.
Committee members present Representatives Clyde Doyle, of Cali-
:
fornia andGordon H. Scherer, of Ohio.

Staif members present: Richard Arens, director; William A.
Wheeler and Donald T. Appell, investigators; and Richard S. Weil,
staff member.
Mr. Doyle. The committee vîll please come to order.
Let the record show that by reason of the provisions of Public Law
601, 79th Congress, the chairman of the committee, Francis E. Walter,
of Pennsylvania appointed for the purpose of this hearing, a sub-
committee of three, consisting of Mr. Velde of Illinois, who is not
—
present this morning he necessarily left the committee after the San
—
Francisco hearings Mr. Gordon Scherer of Ohio, who sits to my
right, and myself. Representative Clyde Doyle of Los Angeles County,
as subcommittee chairman.
Let the record show that Mr. Scherer and Chairman Doyle are both
present, therefore, a legal quorum of the subcommittee is present.
May I say that, under our rules and under the rules of the House of
Representatives, now it is required, and properly so we believe, that
at least two members of Congress sit in every investigating committee
where a witness is testifying under oath.
Let the record show that pursuant to authorization, therefore, of
Chairman Walter, authorized by Public Law 601, the public hearings
are being held at this time.
Our hearings in this great city will go further into the current
campaign of political subversion which the Communist Party, and
possibly Communist-controlled fronts, and its confederate organiza-
tions, are conducting throughout our great Nation. This committee
has already held hearings in Chicago, Washington. D. C. Youngs- ;
town, Ohio: and during the last week in Los Angeles and San
Francisco.
Sworn testimony which we have received in these hearings shows
as clear as crystal that the Communist Party campaign of jwlitical
0935
subversion now in vogue, ranks today as one of the greatest threats

of the Communist Party and its confederate subversives to our con-
stitutional form of Government. The American Communist Party,
though a corps of militant revolutionaries, is attempting to rob the
United States of America of its legal defenses as they now exist in
Federal statutes against ultimate conquest by an alien conspiracy
and a foreign power which directs the Communist Party and its con-
federates in the United States of America.
More appalling, however, is the fact the Communists and their
confederates, either knowingly or unknowingly, by propaganda and
infiltration subversively and always in contempt of our United States
Constitution, are seeking at all times to enlist the services of well-
meaning American citizens in this illicit, diabolical undertaking.
The activities of the Communist Party in the United States and a
multitude of subversive Communist front organizations, some members
of which are unsuspecting of the real subversive control of those organ-
izations, but which the Communist Party has created for their sub-
versive purposes, are directed against such existing Federal statutes
as the Smith Act, the Internal Security Act, the Communist Control
Act, and with a special vehemence against the provisions of our exist-
ing Immigration and Nationality Act, which provides, among other
things, for the deportation of alien Communists who have obtained
residence in the United States by misrepresentation and who maintain
allegiance still to the Kremlin instead of to the United States of
America.
I want to make it clear that we are not engaged in these hearings
in considering the merits or the lack of merits of any particular
Federal statute. Furthermore, we are not and never have, and never
will, contest the right of any American citizen to either individually
or to organize in behalf of, support of, or opposition to, any particular
law.
Such political activity is a constitutional inherent, fundamental
right under the United States Constitution. This committee and all
American Congressmen are sworn to uphold that right and always
will uphold that right.
As a rule in these hearings, we are not confronted with sincere
citizens who seek to participate in good faith and patriotically in the
process of our Constitutional form of Government. We are con-
fronted, rather, with a group of people, unfortunately, who hold these
very democratic constitutional processes in deliberate contempt, and
who contrive to use them to advance the operation of an illegal sub-
versive Communist conspiracy which is clearly dedicated to the de-
struction, even to the extent of force and violence in some cases, of
all democratic processes as is proven time and time again in the jury
trials and other court trials throughout our Nation.
—
The Congress is entitled to know at all times and I am sure any
—
thinking patriotic American citizen will agree with us that the
United States Congress is at all times entitled to know the identity
and the true interests of all persons who petition Congress for a change
of any sort in existing Federal legislation. Only if Congress knows
who it is dealing with, and what the real interests of a petitioner be-
fore Congress are, can we in Congress discharge with dispatch with
justice, with soundness, and with fairness, our duties as legislators
for nil the American people.
A number of witnesses before this committee during this series of

hearings have charged that we have no legislative purpose. I don't
want to dignify that by making any extended answer because the
charge is false and known to be false. Public Law 601 expressly
states that as one of the purposes for the existence of this committee.
"Without such hearings there would be no Smith Act, nor any Com-
munist Control Act. There would be no weapon by which the United
States Government could adequately defend itself as it now can.
I would also like to point out that the Committee on Un-American
Activities was first created as a regular standing committee by the 79th
Congress in 1946. It has been reestablished ever since then. In other
words, by the 79th Congress, by the 80th Congress, 81st Congress, 82d
Congress, 83d Congress, 84th Congress and by the 85th Congress. The
full committee consists of nine members. Public Law 601 expressly
authorizes the creation of subcommittees like this one here this morn-
ing. The committee has established its rules of procedure, as is well
known. We expect that, as a result of these hearings, this subcommit-
tee of the Connnittee on Un-American Activities and the full com-
mittee will be better able and equipped to consider legislative recom-
mendations to the next Congress in January, which will be of further
aid to our Government in combating the Communist apparatus in this
area, and that the information obtained here will serve to further alert
the well-meaning, patriotic people of the Seattle-Portland area, and
the United States as a whole, of the forces which subversively seek the
destruction of our constitutional form of government.
Before we proceed I would like to cordially state that it has come
to our attention, and we are pleased to have it so, that some of the
witnesses appearing here this morning will be represented by very
eminent, very respected, and able members of the Seattle Bar Asso-
ciation.
And I make clear the fact that these members of the Seattle Bar As-
sociation who have been assigned to do this representation as attorneys
today and tomorrow are doing so in accordance with their oath which
requires them to appear, if one has to, for any person who is clearly
indigent or who is believed to be indigent and, therefore, not able to
employ counsel on such an occasion.
—
Their appearance before this committee I refer to the attorneys
of the local bar association who are acting without compensation is—
in no way to be construed as a reflection on either their motives or
their integrity.
On behalf of the committee I wish to compliment the members of
the Seattle Bar Association on performing this part of their oath
as lawyers.
(See statement of Jolm N. Kupp, president, Seattle Bar Associa-
tion, pp. 7015, 7016 of testimony.)
Mr. ScHERER. May I interject a word or two ?
Mr. Doyle. Yes, Mr. Scherer.
Mr. Scherer. There should be no reflection attached to any other
lawyer who appears on behalf of a client and who is paid by that wit-
ness to represent him in this hearing. I think 3'Ou snould state that.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you for adding that.
Mr. Scherer. Unless it is otherwise shown to the contrary.
Mr. Doyle. I think that it might interest the members of the bar to
know that Mr. Scherer and I both are lawyers of many years of prac-
tice before we went to Congress 7 and 10 years aô in respective cases.

Ofcourse there is no smoking in the room during the sessions of
the committee.
If you will pardon just a personal word at this point by me, I wish
to state it is always a pleasure to return to Seattle. I have a great fond-
ness for Seattle and tliis area because, when I was a boy in the gram-
mar grades, I had the pleasure of attending and graduating from
T"'^niyersity Heights Grammar School in Seattle, Wash. Ever since
I have had a great fondness for Seattle and the great Northwest.
As a matter of local history, I might state that I recall very definitely
I was a babysitter in those days in the home of the distinguished
president of the TTniversity of Washington, President Landes, and
that means in the home of one of your distinguished mayors of Seattle,
now deceased. Bertha K. Landes. Then, of course, some of you know
that the home in which I lived when I was here was the home of a
very distinguished minister of the gospel, Rev. Thomas C. Wiswell,
pastor of University Heights Congregational Church.
So if you will pardon that personal reference, Mr. Scherer, this is
one reason why I am a little glad to get you back here, so you can see
the beauties and advantages of this great Northwest. And I am
glad to bring you the greetings of my native State of California,
and of my gi-eat county of Los Angeles.
Are you ready to proceed, Mr. Arens ?
Before we do that, and so we will save time, I want to call to the
attention of the bar, especially, and the witnesses, a couple of rules of
the committee that have been in effect for many years. I read rule
VII:
At every hearing, public or executive, every witness shall be accorded the
privilege of having counsel of his own choosing.
The participation of counsel during the course of any hearing and while the
witness is testifying shall be limited to advising said witness as to his legal
rights. Counsel shall not be permitted to engage in oral argument with the
committee, but shall confine his activity to the area of legal advice to his client.
Rule VIII:
Counsel for a witness shall conduct himself in a professional, ethical, and
proper manner. His failure to do so shall, upon a finding to that effect by a
majority of the committee or subcommittee before which the witness is appear-
ing, subject such counsel to disciplinary action which may include warning, cen-
sure, removing from the hearing room of counsel, or a recommendation of con-
tempt proceedings.
In case of such removal of counsel, the witness shall have a reasonable time
to obtain other counsel, said time to be determined by the committee. Should
the witness deliberately or capriciously fail or refuse to obtain the services of
other counsel within such reasonable time, the hearing shall continue and the
testimony of such witness shall be heard without benefit of counsel.
Therefore, may I suggest that if any counsel has anything to say
at any time to the committee, say it during the recess period of the
committee or before the committee begins work. Because we do not
have time to grant time to counsel to speak directly to the conunittee.
One further point Under Public Law 601, 1 read
: :
The Committee on Un-American Activities, as a whole or by subcommittee, is

authorized to make from time to time investigations of (i) the extent, character,
and objects of un-American propaganda activities in the United States, (ii) the
diffusion within the United States of subversive and un-American propaganda
that is instigated from foreign countries or of a domestic origin, and attacks
— —
*******
the principle of the form of government as guaranteed by our Constitution, and
(iii) all other questions in relation thereto that would aid Congress in any neces-
sary remedial legislation.
For the purpose of any such investigation, the Committee on Un-American

Activities, or any subcommittee thereof, is authorized to sit and act at such
times and places within the United States
I wish you to note this, please
whether or not the House is sitting, has recessed or has adjourned, to hold such
hearings, to require the attendance of such witnesses and the production of
such books, papers, and documents, and to take such testimony as it deems
necessary. Subpenas may be issued under the signature of the chairman of
the committee or any subcommittee, or by any member designated by any such
chairman, and may be served by any person designated by any such chainiian or
member.
Mr. SciiEKER. That L^st, you are reading: from is not from the rules
of the committee, but from the public law of the Congress creating
the committee.
INIr. Doyle. Public Law 601, which has been standing as a matter
of public law just as it is ever since 1946.
Are you ready to proceed, Mr. Arens ?
Mr. Arexs. Yes, sir.
Burt Nelson, kindly come forward. Would you please remain stand-
ing while the chairman administers an oath to you.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Nelson, do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Nelson. I do.
Mr. Doyle. Please take the chair there.
TESTIMONY OF BURT NELSON, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,

JOHN M. RUPP
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and oc-
cupation.
Mr. Nelson. My name is Buit Nelson. I live at 1218 Westlake,
North, Box 25.
]Mr. Arens. And your occupation, please, sir ?
Mr. Nelson. I decline to answer this question.
Mr. Arens. Why?
Mr. Nelson. On the followino- grounds: That it has no legislative
pur])ose, and in claiming the privilege and the right of the first amend-
ment to the Constitution, I assert, as does the first amendment to the
Constitution, that Congress shall pass no law respecting and estab-
lislunent of religion, or the practice tliereof, nor any abridgment of
the right of freedom of speech, of ]3ress, the right of the citizens
to peacefully assemble and to petition for redress of grievances. And
further, on the grounds of the ninth amendment, and of the fifth
amendment, which provides, among other things, that no one shall
be required to testify against themselves in any manner, way, shape,
or form. And on the grounds that it might incriminate me.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, for the purpose of ascertaining whether
or not this witness is invoking the fifth amendment in good faith, I
now ask you, Mr. Witness, do you honestly apprehend that if you
told this committee truthfully what your occupation is, you would
be supplying information which might be used against you in a

criminal proceeding?
Mr. Nelson. Yes.
Mr. AuENS. Thank you sir.
And you are today appearing in response to a subpena w^hich was
served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American Activities?
Mr. Nelson. Yes.
Mv. Nelson. I am.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, would you kindly identify yourself?
Mr. Rupp. I am sorry, Mr. Arens, I should have done that before.
Mr. Arens. No, this is proper procedure. At this point, if you
please, sir.
Mr. Rupp. M;^ name is John M. Rupp, R-u-p-p. I am appearing
in a representative capacity for Mr. Nelson, also as president of the
Seattle Bar Association, the organization to which the chairman
alluded in his opening statement.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Nelson, how long have you occupied your present
position ?
Mr. Nelson. I decline to answer this question for the following
reasons That it has no legislative purpose, and in claiming the right
:
and privilege of the first amendment, I assert that the Congress of

the United States shall make no abridgment of the right of the people
to peacefully assemble and petition for redress of grievances. On
the grounds of the ninth amendment, which provides the enumeration
in the (constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny
or disparage others retained by the people. And on the grounds of
the 10th amendment which, among other things, provides the powers
not delegated to the United States, or prohibited to the States, are
reserved to the people.
Mr. Scherer. JNIr. Chairman, may I suggest
JNlr. Nelson. And further
JMr. Scherer. I am sorry. Go ahead.
jNIr. Nelson. On the grounds of the fifth amendment, which, among
other things, provides that no one shall be denied life, liberty, and
tile pursuit of happiness without due process, which includes a trial
hj jury, the right to examine witnesses, to cross-examine, to test the
validity of the allegations and the integrity of he who makes the
allegations.
]\Ir.Doyle. Mr. Nelson
Mr, Nelson. And on the grounds that it might incriminate me.
Mr. Doyle. Now that you have made it clear what you intend to
plead, with your plea of the first and fifth and ninth and your con-
stitutional jirivileges, may I request or suggest that, in your answers
where you do intend to plead your constitutional privileges, you just
state that you plead all your constitutional privileges, just as you
have before, and we will accept that as sufficient plea of your con-
stitutional privileges.
Mr. Scherer. I think, Mr. Chairman, if he indicates clearly that
he is invoking the fifth amendment, I think he should say "for the
reasons I have previously stated, including the fifth amendment."
Mr. Doyle. Of course.

^Tr. xVrens. Mr. Nelson, as the chairman made clear in his opening
statement, the Committee on Un-American Activities is in the process
of developing factual information respecting Communist political
subversion, the efforts of the Communist conspiracy to destroy the
security laws of this country. With that end in view, there is now
being displayed to you a document entitled "'Coalition for Freedom
and Democracy, a Report of the Washington State Committee of the
Communist Party, November 1955." Kindly look at that document
and tell us first of all whether or not you have ever seen it before.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 614," see appendix, pp. 8186-
8203.)
(The witness confers with his counsel and examines document.)
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, while the witness is perusing the docu-
ment, may I respectfully suggest that each of the several exhibits
shown to the witness will by general order be appropriately marked
and will be either incorporated in the appendix or by reference, as
the case may be.
Mr. Doyle. I will now make that order.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly answer the question.
Mr. Nelson. I decline to answer the question for the following
reasons
Mr. Doyle. May I ask your cooperation at this point. To follow my
suggestion for the purpose of saving your time and everyone else's,
that you not undertake to take time to again repeat the way you have
twice
Mr. Nelson. I decline for the reasons that I have previously stated.
Mr. Arens. This document, which sets forth the program of the
Communist Party on legislation, includes a drive to destroy the Inter-
nal Security Act, the Immigration and Nationality Act, the Smith
Act, and hearings by congressional committees, alluded to here as
Yelde hearings, Velde being a former chairman of this committee.
^^Hiile you are under oath, Mr. Nelson, please tell this committee,
if it is not a fact that you were one of the instigators and f ormulators
of this program of the Communist Party of the State of Washington.
Mr. Nelson. I decline to answer the question specifically on the fol-
lowing grounds: That Congress shall make no law
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Nelson, may I admonish you, we will appreciate
getting your cooperation. I have stated that this committee will con-
sider it sufficient if you will plead your constitutional privileges. You
have made your valued statements, I am sure, in the last three an-
swers elaborating on it.
Mr. Nelson. Specifically, I woidd like to state in response to this
question the following reasons: That Congress sliall make no law
abridging the right of the people to peaceably assemble and petition
for a right of redress in any manner, particular, or respect, and for
the additional reasons that I have previously stated.
Mr. Arens. You understand, Mr. Nelson, I wasn't asking you or
suggesting that any gi'oup did not have a right to petition Congress.
I was only asking you in the question whether or not to your certain
knowledge the Communist conspiratorial apparatus had these partic-
ular objectives set forth in that document which was displayed to you.
Now we want to display to you a document from the Communist
Daily People's World, an article appearing in the issue of Friday,
: — : —
February 17, 1956. This article says: "Nelson to head Communist

Party in State." The body of the article contains the following
language
Election of Burt Xelson, veteran Seattle maritime union leader, as chairman
of the Washington State Communist Party, was announced this week by the
party's State committee.
and so forth.
Kindly look at that article and tell this committee while you are
under oath, whether or not that article makes a correct recitation of
the facts.
Mr. Nelson. I decline to answer the question on the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Arexs. Now are you connected with the Washington State Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Nelson. I decline to answer this question —
Mr. Arens. Wliat is the relationship between the Washington State
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born and the Communist con-
spiracy in this State?
Mr. Nelson. You interrupted me.
Mr. Arens. I beg your pardon. I apologize.
Mr. Nelson. On the grounds that I had previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Yes. Now tell us what is the connection between the
Washington State Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, to your
certain loiowledge, and the Communist conspiratorial apparatus in
this State.
Mr. Nelson. I decline to answer this question for the following rea-
sons It has no legislative purpose, it is a leading, exploratory question
:
and I assert the provisions of the first amendment, that Congress shall
pass no law respecting peaceful assembly of people to petition for
right of grievance, and under those
]Mr. Doyle. Excuse me. Mr. Nelson, I have the full text of the
United States Constitution right here. So if you will just identify
the section of the Constitution that you rely on, we have the full text
right here, and even if we didn't have, we should know the Consti-
tution.
Mr. Nelson. And on the further grounds of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Nelson, we lay before you a photostatic copy
of the Daily Peoples World of April 27, 1950, in which an article
appears, part of which reads as follows
May Day Dinner Slated
A panel discussion by "Washington State Communist Party leaders and a

question period will feature a May Day festival and dinner, at the Casa Italiana,
1520 17th Street.
Sul)ject of the panel talks will be the 20th Congress of the Communist Party of
the Soviet Union, and the 1956 elections. Those participating will be Burt
Nelson, State chairman
and so forth.
Kindly look at that article of the Communist Daily People's World
and tell this committee while you are under oath whether or not the
facts there are, to your certain knowledge, accurately set forth.
Mr. Nelson. I decline to answer this question on the grounds that I

have previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that in the
presence of this witness, anotlier witness be called, Mrs. Barbara
Hartle. Will you kindly come forward.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Hartle, will you please come forward.
Kindly remain standing while the chairman administers an oath to
you.
Mr. Doyle. JNIrs. Hartle. do you solenmly swear to tell the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs. Hartle. I do.
Mr. Doyle. Please take a seat.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. BAHBAEA HARTLE

cupation.
Mrs. Hartle. Barbara Hartle, Koute 1, Bos 2, Evans, Wash. I
have no employment. I worli on the farm and in the house of my
father.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Hartle, I expect a little later on to interrogate you
at lengthon a number of matters, but for the present I should like to
ask you now, Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?
And during what period of time were you a member of the Communist
Party?
Mrs. Hartle. From the winter of 1933-34, until March 12, 1954, at
which time I renounced the Communist Party.
Mr. Arens. During the course of your mem.bership in the Com-
munist Party, did you have occasion to know a person by the name of
Burt Nelson ?
Mrs. Hartle. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Did you know him as a Communist ?
Mrs. Hartle. Yes, I did.
Mr. Arens. Do you swear while now under oath, to your certain
knowledge, that Burt Nelson was a Communist during the experience
of yourself in the Communist conspiracy ?
Mrs. Hartle. Yes, I do.
Mr. Arens. Do you see the Burt Nelson in the hearing room today,
now, whom you have identified as a Communist?
Mrs. Hartle. Yes. Pie is here at the witness table.
Mr. Arens. Would you point him out to the committee ?
Mrs. Hartle. He is sitting right to my right.
TESTIMONY OF BURT NELSON—Resumed

Mr. Arens. Mr. Nelson, you have just heard the testimony of Mrs.
Barbara Hartle. Have you not ?
Mr. Nelson. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Was she lying or was she telling the truth ?
Mr. Nelson. I decline to answer this question on the following
grounds
6944 coMMijisriST political subversion
Mr. Arens. You may return to your seat, Mrs. Hartle.

Mr. Nelson. To dignify this person by an admission of knowledge
of her would be incriminating and degrading.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel
Mr. ScHERER. Just a minute. Whether you wanted to dignify her
or not, and whether it be degrading to you or not, the question is,
Was she telling the truth or was she lying when she said that you were
a member of the Communist Party ?
(The witness confers with, his counsel.)
Mr. ScHERER. That is the question.
Mr. Nelson. Was that a question ?
Mr. Scherer. Yes, it was.
Mr. Nelson. I decline to answer, on the grounds that I have pre-
viously stated, the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel that if you told this committee
truthfully Avhether or not Mrs. Hartle was lying when she swore a few
moments ago that you were a Communist, you would be supplying in-
formation which could be used against you in a criminal proceeding ?
Mr. Nelson. I decline to answer this question on the grounds of
Mr. Arens, Do you know a man
Mr, Scherer, Just a minute, Mr, Chairman, I ask that you direct
the witness to answer the question,
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Witness, I order and direct that you answer that
last question.
Mr. Nelson. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a person by the name of Jess Fletcher?
Mr. Nelson. I decline to answer this question on the grounds of the
fifth amendment and of the first amendment.
Mr. Arens. Jess Fletcher took an oath and testified while he was
under oath that while he was a member of the Communist Party he
knew you as a Communist. Was he lying or was he telling the truth?
Mr. Nelson, I decline to answer this question on the previous
grounds.
Mr. Arens. H. C. Armstrong took an oath, laid his liberty on the
line,and said he knew you as a Communist. Was he lying or was
he telling the truth ?
Mr. Nelson. I decline to answer this question on the previous
grounds.
Mr. Arens, Elizabeth Boggs Cohen took an oath and identified
5ôu as a member of the Communist conspiracy. Was she lying or
was she telling the truth ?
fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Leonard Wildman took an oath and identified you as
a member of the Communist conspiracy. Was he lying or was he
telling the truth?
Mr. Nelson. I decline to answer this question for the reasons I have
previously given.
Mr. Arens. A1 Bristol, former Communist Party functionary in
Seattle, took an oath and identified you as a member of the Communist
conspiracy. Was Al Bristol lying or was he telling the truth ?
il
—
Mr, Nelson. I decline to answer this question

Mr. Arens. Are you now a
Mr. Nelson. For the reasons previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Are you now a member of the Comnuuiist conspiracy ?
Mr. Nelson. I decline to answer this question, and I assert, as does
the first amendment, that Congress shall pass no abridgment of the
right of the people to peacefully assemble, petition for the right of
redress of grievances. And on the grounds of the fifth amendment
which provides in part the right to a fair trial, to confront your accus-
ers and cross-examine them, to test the truths or untruth of their allega-
tions and of their motives, and on the grounds that it might incrimi-
nate me.
Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, sir, and ask you to affirm or
deny the fact that you are now an integral part of the Communist
conspiracy in the State of Washington.
Mr. Nelson. I decline to answer this question on the grounds I have
previously stated.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that will conclude
Mr. Doyle. Congressman Scherer, any questions?
Mr. Scherer. Yes, sir.
Witness, have you continued to be a member of the Communist con-
spiracy since the Communists conunitted the atrocities in Hungary in
the last few months?
1st amendment, of the 9th amendment, the 10th amendment, the 5th
amendment, and on the additional grounds that it has no legislative
purpose.
Mr. Scherer. Do you approve the actions of the Communists in
Hungary ?
Mr. Nelson. I decline to answer this question on the following
grounds: The first amendment, the ninth amendment, the tenth
amendment, the fifth amendment, which all or in part prohibit the
Congress from legislating on approval or disapproval of the internal
affairs of a sovereign nation beyond the bounds of the United States.
Mr. Scherer. That answer is quite revealing. It indicates that you
have answered "yes" to my question.
Mr. Doyle. At this point, Mr. Scherer, I wish to call attention for
the record and for our colleagues in Washington next Congress, to
the fact that the Seattle Post Intelligencer of this morning carries
the headline, "U. N. Assembly vote condemns Russia for actions in
Hungary by a vote of 55 to 8." I think that is magnificent.
I don't think we have ever had a witness before us in any of these
hearings who lias been identified as a Communist or a member of the
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born who publicly in our pres-
ence condemned the action of Russia in slaughtering and murdering
innocent men, women, and children in Hungary.
Mr. Arens. May the witness be excused, Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Doyle. The witness is excused. Thank you. Counsel.
Mr. Arens. Mrs, Barbara Hartle, would you kindly take the prin-
cipal witness chair.
Mr. Doyle. Counsel, while Mrs. llartle is coming to take the stand,
I have before —
me I just want to read one paragraph, I wish I had
:
—
time to read it all in the case of Quinn v. United States of Amer-
ica^ decided by the Supreme Comt of the United States, October
term, 1954, in view of Mr. Nelson's statements that we had no power
to investigate because there was no legislative purpose, as claimed by
him. I read from page 5 of his decision and 1 quote this decision of
the United States Supreme Court
There can be no doubt as to tlie power «>f Congress, by itself or through its
lation. This power, deeply rooted in American and English institutions, is indeed
coextensive with the power to legislate. Without the power to investigate—
including of course the authority to compel testimony, either through its own
—
process or through judicial trial Congress could be seriously handicapped in its
efforts to exercise its constitutional function wisely and effectively.
And of course has been stated by me before, the chief reason that
it
purpose of investigating, for the pur-
this conmiittee is here is for the
pose of benefiting the United State? Congress in the field of legislation.
TESTIMONY OF BAEBAEA HAETLS— Eesumed

Mr. Arens. Mrs. Hartle, you have previously been sworn on this
record this morning, and you have told us that you were a member of
the Communist Party. Would you give us just a brief summary of
your break with the Communist Party, what precipitated the break,
and then we will go on from tiiere.
Mrs. Hartle. After I had been sent underground by the Communist
Party in the summer of 1950, I began to be in less close cont:;ct with
the party organization and activities, and became in closer contact
with the ordinary lives of ordinary Americn citizens. During that
time I decided to quit being an active functionary of the party. I
had attempted to break contact with the Communist Party in the
underground on the wrong assumption that if I broke contact that
they would then leave me alone.
I was then pursued by the Communist Party in the persons of its
leaders, attempting to discipline me, attempting to bring me back
into activity and responsibility. And after my arrest on a Smith Act
charge and release on bond here in Seattle, I was further pursued by
persons I had known as members of the Comnmnist Party to resume
my political activity as a Communist, to accept my responsibilities and
discipline. I was expelled at one point and reinstated at another
point.
Later as I was released on appeal bond in the city of Seattle, and
tried to earn a living while waiting for the time that the case came
to a close and 1 would either be freed or serve a sentence, I was again
pursued by various factions of the Communist Party in an attempt
to pressure me back into activity. And through these experiences
and others, I finally came to the realization that the Communist Party
was a gigantic fraud and a hoax, that it had raised havoc with my
life, that it was a danger to the country and at that time I voluntarily
went to the Federal Bureau of Investigation and made a public state-
ment in the Seattle Post-Intelligencer renouncing the Communist
Party.
]Mr.Arexs. Thank you.
Now, during the course of your experience in the Communist Party,
did you have occasion to become thoroughly acquainted with the ac-
tivities of the Connnunist Party designed to destroy, undermine, and
COAOIUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6947
weaken the anti-Communist program of this Government, including

the legishitive program ?
]\Irs. Hartle. Yes, I did,
Mr. Akexs. Did you have occasion to become acquainted with the
membership and activities of the Northwest Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born ?
Mrs. Harile. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Was it controlled by the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Hartle. Yes.
Mr. Arexs, I would like to display to you, if I may, please, Mrs.
Hartle, two documents from the Northwest Committee for Protec-
tion of Foreign Born. The first is an application for membership bear-
ing the names of a number of the officers of this organization. And the
second is a call to a NortliAvest Conference to Fight Deportation under
the auspices of the Northwest Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born, listing certain of the officers and leaders of that organization.
Would you kindly look at those documents, and tell this committee
while you are under oath, the names of any persons, to 3'our certain
knowledge, who were Communists and officers or leaders of the North-
west Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
(Document marked "Exhibits No. 617 and 618," see appendix,
pp. 8205-8209.)
INIrs. Hartle. P[ugh DeLacy.
jMr. Arens. And by the way, if it is agreeable with you, give us
just a comment about the individual, what you might know about him.
We don't want an extensive biographical sketch out just a word about
him.
Mrs. Hartle. Hugh DeLacy was one time president of the Wash-
ington Commonwealth Federation of the State of Washington, was
one time a Congressman from the First District of the State of Wash-
ington.
Air. Arens. And Mr. Chairman, I think it would not be inappro-
priate if I would interpose this comment on this record, namely, that
in our hearings in Ohio, in anticipation of the hearings in Ohio, we
made vigorous search to find Hugh DeLacy in order to subpena him.
Our best information is he has been dodging the subpena.
]\Ir. Scherer. Wasn't Hugh DeLacy called before our committee
and took the fifth amendment ?
JMr. Arens. On a preceding occasion, yes, sir.
]\f r. Scherer. Yes, some years ago.
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Now, do you have another name there ?
Mrs. Hartle. Joseph Jurich, J-u-r-i-c-h, whom I knew as an offi-
cial of one of the waterfront unions in Seattle.
Karloy Larsen, wliom I knew as an official of a lumber workers union
in the Northwest area and as a leader of the Communist Party.
Mr. Arens. By the way, I wanted the record to be clear, because of
the tenor of your conversation there. Name only persons who to your
certain knowledge were members of the Communist Party in each in-
stance, and we will not liave to ask you each time do you know him as
a Communist.
Mrs. Hartle. Yes, I will do that.
INIarion Kinney, wlio was manager of the Frontier Book Store in the
city of Seattle, from about 1943 to 1954, to my knowledge.
Mr. Arens. How is she listed on the documents before you? In

what capacity is she connected with the
Mrs. Hari-le. She is listed as Executive Secretary of the Northwest
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. ScHEKER. The name is familiar. Where did I hear that name,
Counsel ?
Mr. Arens. She is one of the petitioners in a certain legal proceed-
ing which was recently instituted in this city.
Mrs. Hartle. Mabel Conrad, whom I knew as one of the State
officers of the Washington Pension Union, as well as a member of
the Coimnunist Party.
Myrna Anderson, whom I knew as a member of the Waterfront Sec-
tion of the Communist Party, and as a woman working in one of the
offices of a waterfront union.
Walter Belka, B-e-1-k-a, whom I knew as an official of one of the
lumber unions in the Northwest area.
Professor Joseph Butterworth, whom I knew as a teacher at Univer-
sity of Washington, and later as a person who had been charged with
contempt by the State Un-American Activities Committee and I
believe convicted.
Kobert Cummings, whom I knew as an officer of one of the Seattle
waterfront unions.
John Daschbach
Mr. Arens. D-a-s-c-h-b-a-c-h. Is that correct?
Mrs. Hartle. Yes. Whomknew as the director of the Seattle
I
Labor School, and Pacific Northwest Labor School, and as executive
secretary of the Washington State Civil Eights Congress.
O. L. Dearinger, D-e-a-r-i-n-g-e-r, whom I knew as a member of a
longshore union in Seattle.
A. A. Fisher, whom I knew as an official of a CIO council in Seattle
at one time, and as a member and officer in a lumber union in the
Pacific Northwest area.
Eachmiel Forschmiedt
Mr. Arens. Is that Fo-r-s-c-h-m-i-e-d-t? And the first name
R-a-c-h-m-i-e-1?
Mrs. Hartle. Yes, I believe that is correct, and whom I knew as an
employee of the sanitation department of the city of Seattle. And
later as one of the persons cited for contempt by the State Un-Ameri-
can Activities Committee, the Canwell committee.
Ray Glover, whom I knew as an officer of one of the lumber unions
in the Enumclaw area.
Oiva Halonen
Mr. Arens. Spell that name, please.
Mrs. Hartle. 0-i-v-a H-a-1-o-n-e-n. Whom I knew as a member
of party active in national-group work for the party among Finn-
tlie
ish workers, and that type of activity.
Florence and Burton James, whom I knew as directors of the Seattle
Repertory Play House. Perhaps I should say that it has come to my
knowledge that Burton James is deceased.
Harold Johnston, wliom I knew as an officer of a machinists' union
in the Seattle area.
Mr. Sciierer. May I interrupt just a minute, Mr. Chairman ?
Mr. DoTLE. Yes, Mr, Scherer.

COIVIMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6949
Mr. ScHERER. Mr. Counsel, will you tell me the date of this list of
and sponsors of the Committee for the Protection of For-
officers
eign Born ?
Mr. Akens. The Northwest Committee for Protection of For-
eign Born, as the evidence will show in a little while, subsequently be-
came the Washington Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
This list and this document is a 1949 list.
Mr. ScHERER. This is 1949 ?
Mr. ScHERER. This sounds like a roster of the Communist Party.
Mr. ScHERER. Go ahead.
Mrs. Hartle. Charles Nichols, whom I knew as an officer of a water-
front union in Seattle.
Jerry O'Connell, whom I knew as an officer of the Progressive Party
of the State of Washington.
William J. Pennock, deceased, whom I knew as president of the
Washington Pension Union, and who was a codefendant with myself
in the Seattle Smith Act trials.
Prof. Herbert J. Phillips, whom I knew as a teacher at the Univer-
sity of Washington.
Thomas C. Rabbitt, whom I knew as an officer of the Washington
Pension Union of the Washington State Progressive Party, among
other things that he did.
Harry Sunoo, whom I knew as a member of the Communist Party
in the University District area. S-u-n-o-o.
Jerry Tyler, whom I knew as an officer of one of the Seattle water-
front unions.
Winnie Tliomson, wliom I knew as a worker in one of the offices of
a Seattle waterfront union.
William Wallace, whom I knew as an officer of one of the lumber
unions of the Northwest area.
And that completes the list of the Northwest Committee.
Mr. Arexs. If you will just hesitate a moment, Mrs. Hartle. Be-
fore we have a little recess, the Northwest Committee for Protec-
tion of Foreign Born, subsequently in 1954 changed its name and be-
came the Washington Committee for Protection of Foreign Born,
isn't that correct ?
Mrs. Hartle. Yes that is right.
;
Mr. Scherer. Have we determined what percentage of the officers

and membership were Communists as identified by the Avitness?
Mr. Arens. What percentage of those names that you have identi-
fied there as Communists, are they to the aggregate number?
Mr. Scherer. Of couree I understand there may be others on that
list wlio might have been Communists, whom Mrs. Hartle did not
know as such. But I am interested in knowing what percentage of
that organization were Communists.
IVIrs. Hartle. For tlie information of the committee, I should say
that there are names on this list of persons that I have been told
were Communists.
Mr. Sciiereh. You haven't mentioned them?
Mrs. Hartle. The ones I mentioned were ones that I knew to be
Communists fiom meetings, from discussions with them, et cetera.
85333— 57— pt. 1 -52
Mr. SciiERER. That is all we Mânted. That is what I just said.

who were members of
It is possible that there are others in that list
the Communist Party, whom you did not know personally of your
own knowledge to be members. I wanted to know what percentage
of the total list are Communists.
Mrs. Hartle. Do you want that quite accurately? Or an esti-
mate?
Mr, Arens. a fair estimate.
Mrs. Hartle. It appears to mo that it is about 75 percent.
Mr. x\rens. Was the organization controlled, to your certain knowl-
edge, lock, stock, and barrel by the Communist conspiracy?
Mrs. Hartle. Yes it was. ;
]Mr. Arens. Now, may we have a little recess, Mr. Chairman

Mr. DoTLE. May I make this comment, Mr. Scherer, in tlie field
of legislative action, or the petitioning of Congress, and the right to
petition Congress, which we certainly respect and want to occur: In
1949 the evidence will —
show that is down to the present date but in —
1949, when you and I were there, if the American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born petitioned Congress from Seattle and
the Northwest, it would really have been the Communist Party, and a
Communist front. I think the evidence clearly shows that.
Mr. SciiERER. In 1949 most of the Congressmen would not have
—
known that that the Committee for Protection of Foreign Born was
a Communist-front organization.
Mr. DoTLE. How
would we know? We
certainly have to get
into the area of legislation to consider legal ways and means to make
sure that it isn't the Communist conspiracy that is petitioning us
under dummy names such as the American Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born manifestly was in 1949, at least.
Mr. SciiERER. It isn't only the American Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born that is controlled and dominated by the Communists,
but I believe to date in these hearings it has been established, has it
not, Counsel, that there are 180 organizations with high-sounding
names that have been set up by the Communist Party and controlled
and dominated by the Communist Party for the purpose of repealing
the internal security laws of this Nation ?
Mr. Arens. 180, Mr. Scherer. exclusively designed to destroy the
Immigration and Nationality Act, the so-called McCarran-Walter
Act. In addition to that, there are countless organizations that have
been set up for the purpose of destroying other comparable legislative
enactments.
Mr. Doyle. Just before we do take a 5-minute recess, may I say
this: I note the presence of distinguished members of the marshals,
police, and police staffs. We
appreciate your coming.
We do not allow either any evidence of approval or disapproval
from those in the room. That is cricket, certainly.
So if the enforcement officers will do as they had to do in Los
Angeles j'.nd San Francisco, without further word from me, when there
is any deliberate AMolation of courtesy to the committee, the city, and
countv, just apply whatever force is necessary to eject the person
and don't let them come back, please.
The committee will stand in recess for 5 minutes.
(Whereupon, a short recess was taken. Committee members pres-
ent Representatives Doyle and Scherer.)
:
: —

Committee members present: Represetatives Doyle and Scherer.)
Mr. Doyle. The committee will please reconvene.
The committee will hold session this morning until 12 30. We will:
hold a night session tonight at 7 30. :
I wish to give order noA\' that anyone under subpena who is not
called before we adjourn this afternoon, please report here tonight at
7 30. We are sorry to cause you that inconvenien>*e but it is also an
:
inconvenience to us to have to hold night sessions.

May I say that I was approached during recess by a person who said
to me, "Congi-essman, v,hy attack the Communist Party so much?
Isn't there anj' other group that also should be equally exposed ?" And
I just wish to read apropos of that remark one paragraph from the
decision in the case of United States of America, plaintiff, versus Sam
Title, being an opinion by the distinguished Federal Judge Leon R.
Yankwich, Chief United States Judge, Southern District of Cali-
fornia, June 8, 1955. In other words, a little over a year ago. And
more is what he said, in brief
We have already referred to the fact that the Communist Party of the United
States and the local branch to which the defendant belonged
I may interpolate here that that was the Los Angeles Branch of the
Communist Party
adopted the gloss which Lenin, Stalin, and the Communist International placed
on Marxist teachings. The literature in the record shows that American Com-
munist conventions and American writers pointed not only to these teachings
as correct, but to the prat tice embodied in the Russian Revolution and the Com-
munist dictatorship enthroned by it as the "v.'ay out."' The following brief
quotations will suffice.
This is which Judge Yankwich, one of the most dis-

a quotation
tinguished Federal Judges on the west coast, adopted as part of his
decision.
"The experience of the victorious workers of the Soviet Union before, during
and after the seizure of power, throw a brilliant light showing the path which
must be followed in every land, the path of Bolshevism, of Marx, Engels, Lenin,
and Stalin."
I think that will answer for the present why we are presently en-
gaged in this hearing, with reference to contemplated legislative action
which will strengthen our internal security laws.
Are you ready, Mr. Arens ?
Mr, Arens, Yes.
]\Ir, Chairman, in the presence of this witness I should like to have
another witness sworn for the ])ur])ose of identification,
Mr, William Wheeler, would you kindly be sworn,
Mr. Doyle, Mr. Wheeler, I wish the record to show, is the distin-
guished chief of staff of our committee on the Pacific coast.
Mr, Wheeler, do you solenmly swear to tell the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Wheeler. I do.
TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM A. WHEELER

Mr. Arens. Mr. Wheeler, you are an investigator for the Committee
on Un-American Activities?
Mr. Wheeler. Yes, sir.
)
(3952 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Arens. I lay before you now a document which is a summons

and complaint in a civil action instituted in the District Court of the
United States for the Western District of Washington, Northern Di-
vision, and ask you if vou have ever seen that document before.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 619," retained in committee files.)
Mr. Wheeler. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Where was that?
Mr. Wheeler. That was served upon me by the United States mar-
shal yesterday evening.
Mr. Wheeler, you will be excused from testifymg. I respectfully
suggest that you lay that document before the witness in the principal
witness chair.
( Document handed to Mrs. Hartle.
TESTIMONY OF BAEBARA HARTLE— Eesumed

Mr. Arens. Mrs. Hartle, would you kindly look on page 2 of this
document on which the following appears under 11.
Mr. ScHERER. Did we state for the record what that document is ?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
It is a complaint for declaratory judgment and injunctive relief,
brought by John W. Caughlan, Marion Kinney, Louise Hatten, Cecelia
Corr, and Clara Paulson individually and as the Washington Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born, against Clyde Doyle, Har-
old H. Velde, and Gordon Scherer individually and as persons pur-
porting to constitute a subcommittee of the Committee on Un-Ameri-
can Acivities of the House of Representatives and Jolm Doe I, John
Doe II, and J olm Doe III, defendants.
Now, Mrs. Hartle, on page 20 of this document which has been iden-
tified in this record, we see a number of persons listed as officers of the
Washington Committee for Protection of Foreign Born by their alle-
gation here.
I should like to ask you, do you know Marion Kinney who is identi-
fied in this document as executive secretary of the Washington Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. D0YI.E. Mr. Arens, may I interrupt here. Is that complaint
verified ? I mean is it sworn to before a notary public ?
Mr. Doyle, On what day ?
Mr. Arens. The affidavit of Marion Kinney is subscribed and sworn
to on the 11th day of December 1956.
Mr. Scherer. So the record is clear, Marion Kinney swore to the
allegations contained in that complaint, one of the allegations being
naming of the local members of the Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born,
Mr. Arens. The local officers ?
Mr. Scherer. The local officers,
Mr, Doyle, By the local officers, you mean the Seattle officers in
the Northwest ?
Mr, Arens, Yes, The Washington Committee.
Mr, DoYiE. That was filed in court when? In the District Court
when was it filed ?
in Seattle
Mr. Appell. Yesterday.
Mr. D0Y1.E. "WHien was the summons issued ?

Mr. Arens. December 12.
Mr. DoTLE. This week?
Mr. ScHErvER. Yesterday.
Mr. Arexs. Do you know Marion Kinney who is identified here as
executive secretary of the Washington Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born ?
Mrs. Hartle. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Did you know her as a Communist ?
Mr. Arens. Do you know Cecelia Corr who was identified in this
sworn document as treasurer of the Washington Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born ?
Mrs. Hartle. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Did you know her as a Coimnunist ?
Mr. Arens. And did you know Clara A. Paulson, P-a-u-1-s-o-n who
is identified as recording secretary of the Washington Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born? And did you know her as a Com-
munist ?
Mrs. Hartle. Yes. I knew her as a Communist.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mrs. Hartle, on the basis of your background and
experience in the Communist Party, and the operations of the Com-
munist conspiracy in this area, can you tell us whether or not the
Washington Committee for Protection of Foreign Born took over
and succeeded the Northwest Committee for Protection of the Foreign
Born ?
Mrs. Hartle. Yes, it did.
Mr. Arens. And was, to your certain knowledge, the Washington
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born controlled lock, stock, and
barrel by the Conmiunist conspiracy ?
Mrs. Hartle. Yes, it was.
Mr. Arens. Wliat was the relationship, if any, between the Wash-
ington Committee, Northwest Committee and the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born?
Mrs. Hartle. They were all a part of the same organization.
Mr. Arens. Now, Abner Green has been identified on this record
back in Washington as the executive secretary of the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born and has been repeatedly identi-
fied under oath by witnesses, as a member of the top echelon of
the Communist conspiracy.
Has Abner Green to your certain knowledge participated in the di-
rection of the affairs of the Northwest Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born, and of the Washington Committee for Protec-
tion of Foreign Born ?
Mrs. Hartle. To my certain knowledge he has participated in di-
rection of the affairs of the Northwest Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born. My
knowledge does not run to the Washington
Committee.
Mr. Arens. In that respect, you muean with reference to his partici-
pation.
Now, you had two documents there. The first document you men-
tioned was an application for membership in the Northwest Commit-
tee for Protection of Foreign Born and the second document, which
was before you which you now have, I see, is a document in the nature
of a call to a conference, issued under the auspices of the Northwest
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. Kindly look at the
second document^, if you please, Mrs. Hartle, and tell this committee
while you are under oath if there are any persons there whom you have
not named who to your certain knowledge are officers or were officers of
the Northwest Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, and who
were Communists.
Mrs. Hartle. On the first page of the call to the conference is listed
the name of Lenus Westman, executive secretary. I knew him and
knew him as a member of the Communist Party.
The others I have named.
Now, Mrs. Hartle, what is, in Communist Party jargon, a '"united
front tactic" ?
Mrs. Hartle. A united front tactic is the program of the Commu-
nistParty to draw non-Communists in to work with Communists on
some specific issue with the aim of influencing them in the direction
of Communist policies, with the aim of gaining sympathizers for the
Communist Party, and with the aim of gaining from among them re-
cruits, members to the Communist Party.
Mr. Arens. Did the Communist Party in its efforts to destroy and
undermine the various anti-Communist legislative enactments, pene-
trate non-Communist and anti-Communist organizations in order to
solicit those organizations to take stands which would ultimately inure
to the benefit of the conspiracy ?
Mrs. Hartle. Yes, it did.

Mr. Arens. Why would the Communist Party be so vigorously op-
posed to the Immigration and Nationality Act, the so-called Walter-
McCarran Act ?
Mrs. Hartle. It was opposed to it because this act made it possible
to deport persons from the country who were Communists, made it
possible to restrict the activities of the Communists who were aliens,
and made it possible to guard some of the work of Communists in such
places as Alaska that might in some way endanger the security of the
country.
Mr. Arens. Now, did the Communist Party, to your knowledge,
while you were a member, impose discipline upon the members of the
party, the comrades, with reference to their action, the position they
were to take, before congressional investigating bodias such as the
House Committee on Un-American Activities ?
Mrs. Hartle. Yes they most certainly did.
;
Mr. Arens. What did they do; what discipline did they impose on
the comrades with regard to this committee and other committees of
comparable jurisdiction ?
Mrs. Hartle. The discipline they imposed was that a member of
the Communist Party, in what they call a burgeois or ca])italist court
or before a congressional committee such as this, should clefy the com-
mittee, that they slioidd aMempt as nuich as possible to bring forward
the program of the Communist Party, and that they should refuse to
cooperate with any of the committees or to conduct themselves as
ordinary defendants in a court.
Mr. Arens. During the course of your experience in the Communist
Party, did you have occasion to gain knowledge, and did you gain
knowledge, respecting a creation of a special underground apparatus
of the Communist conspiracy in these parts?
Mrs. Hartle. Yes I did.;
Mr. Arens. And could you tell us, first of all, what precipitated
the creation of that underground operation and, secondly, who were
the participants?
Mrs. PIartle. The underground operation was precipitated by the
situation created in the mind of the C'ommunist Party by the Korean
war. The Communist Party said the Korean war would certainly
evolve into world war III and that this could become a very dangerous
thing for the Conmiunist Party. That it was possible that many mem-
bers and leaders of the Communist Party could be arrested and that
it was necessary for the Communist Party districts such as the North-
west district, to have leaders, capable organizers, and agitators of
the party in reserve, in hiding; that is, so that in the event the
operating leadership of the party were arrested, that there would be
in reserve capable forces to direct the party from underground to
continue its activities.
Mr. Arens. And who, to your certain knowledge, were assigned to
the Communist Pa rty underground ?
Mrs. Hartle. Assigned to the Communist Party underground to
my certain and personal knowledge were Milford Sutherland, Kalph
Hall, John Lawrie, L-a-w-r-i-e, Paula Alexander.
Those are some that I can recall.
Mr. Arens. Was Pearl Castle assigned to the underground?
Mrs. Hartle. Not to my personal knowledge. I had only indirect
knowledge of that.
Mr. Arens. Was Clayton VanLydegraf assigned to the under-
ground ?
Mrs. Hartle. I knew that he had been assigned to the underground
from reports in meetings of the underground State committee.
Mr. Arens. Now, did you during the course of your expei'ience in
the Communist Party have any conversations Avith a person by the
—
name of Sarah Hortense, H-o-r-t-e-n-s-e Sarnh Hortense Lesser,
L-e-s-s-e-r —respecting her personal activities?
Mrs. Hartle, Yes.
Mr. Arens. Could you tell us just in your own words the essence of
that conversation ?
Mrs. Hartle. The essence of my conversation with her regarding

this m.atter was that at some time in the past she had undergone
discipline by the Communist Party, that she had experienced some
discipline due to breaking the discipline of the party on her own part.
The conversation indicated to me that she had been a member of the
Communist Party in undergoing this discipline.
Mr. DoTLE. Mr. Scherer, any questions ?
Mr. Scherer. Yes just one or two.
;
Mr. DoYT.E. Go ahead.

]\Tr. am again referring to the complaint
SciiEitKR. Afrs. Hartle, I
filed in the district Federal court yesterday against the members of
this subcommittee. It is my recollection that you identified all but
one o-P the complainants as members of the Cominunist Party, includ-
ing Marion Kinney, who was one of the complainants who made affi-
)
davit as to tlie truth of tlie allegations set forth in the complaint.

Isn't Marion Kinney the executive secretary of the Washington
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, Mr. Arens?
]\Ir. Arens. That is right.
]Mr. ScHERER. Yes; she so states under oath that she is, I see here
in the complaint.
Now, acting as notary public, the man who took the affidavit of
this Marion Kinney, is one John Caughlan. I am advised that he is a
member of the bar, and one of the lawyers who is representing the
petitioners, tlie plaintiffs in this action. Do you know John Caughlan,
the lawyer.
Mrs. Hartle. Yes.
Mr. ScHERER. Did you know him during the time that you were
in the Communist Party as a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Doyle. Was it in Seattle that you knew him as a Communist ?
Mrs. Hartle. Yes.
Mr. Scherer. Well, it looks like all of them are members of the
Communist Party except one. There is a John W. Caughlan who is
also a petitioner. I believe he is the one that you have not identified,
the only one that you have not identified in this litigation. He was
not a member of the Communist Party, is that right ?
Mr. Doyle. Maybe it is the same John.
]Mr. Scherer. No, I understand that he is the father of the attorney.
Did you know him or not ?
Mrs. Hartle. I knew him.
Mr. Scherer. You have not identified him, however. He is the
only one you have not identified as a member of the Communist Party.
Mrs. Hartle. That is correct.
Mr. Doyle. Then he should get the benefit of it being made very
clear that John W. Caughlan is not identified in this hearing as a
member of the Communist Party so far. Is that correct, Mr. Arens?
Mr. Wheeler. He is a minister, not a lawyer.
Mr. Doyle. He is a minister.
Mr. Scherer. He is put on notice now that his son and all his
associates are members, if he didn't know it before, which I doubt.
Mr. Doyle. Any further questions?
Mr. Scherer. No, I have no further questions.
Mr. Doyle. I just have one. I think at this point, Mr. Scherer,
it would be appropriate for me to refer to the Guide to Subversive
Organizations and Publications, published on May 14, 1951, by this
committee as House Document 137.
It appears crystal clear to us from a great deal of evidence under
oath and documentary wise, that the Northwest Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born, and the Los Angeles committee are all off-
shoots or auxiliaries of the American Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born, Let me read the record of the American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born on page 13 of this House Document 137.
( See p. 6628 of testimony.
I see by this sworn complaint we have referred to that they frankly

state they collect substantial sums of money. I mean the Northwest
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. So evidently the ap-
praisement by the California Committee on Un-American Activities
was correct in that feature, too.
I wish to make this observation, Mr. Scherer, with reference to our

report when we go back to Washington. It seems to me that in the
field of legislation Congress should take notice that we ought to con-
sider whether or not it would be constitutional and necessary to enact
legislation concerning the activities of these Communist fronts such as
this one in this complaint on page 2 — four of the five executive officers
of this Northwest Committee for Protection of Foreign Born under
their own oath, filed yesterday in district court in this city, they declare
that they are all of the officers of the Washingion Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born. So again we have here the same pattern
as in this Los Angeles and San Franciso. This alleged Committee for
the Protection of Foreign Born, the Communists are in control of the
money and the policy.
Mr. Scherer. May I interrupt. I don't know whether we have
—
them here or not but in Los Angeles it was shown by numerous checks
introduced in evidence, where the Communist officers of the Committee
for the Protection of Foreign Born, were making out checks to other
Communists for services rendered to the Committee for the Protec-
tion of Foreign Born.
Mr. Doyle.- To complete this statement, for the purpose of the rec-
ord, so all our colleagues in Washington can see as we see in this hearing
that here is another case where the bank account and all the funds are
in control of admittedly, over their own oath in court yesterday in this
complaint, of four of the five executive officers of the Washington
Committee who are identified as Communists.
So it is the Communist Party in Washington and Seattle that is
controlling the policy and the funds of the Northwest or Washington
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born instead of anyone else.
And in Los Angeles the record shows admittedly, that while the
woman on the stand admitted under oath, that she had been convicted
of violation of the Smith Act more than 2 years previous, it wâs proven
that she and another identified Commie were the two people who
signed the checks and controlled the bank account of the Los Angeles
committee.
Mr. Scherer. She was promoted after she was convicted.
Mr. Doyle. She was promoted as chairman after she was convicted
by a jury in Federal Court for violating the Smith Act.
That is the kind of people that the people in the Northwest, the great
Northwest, are contributing money to when they contribute money to
pay the salaries of the officers of apparently the Washington Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born.
That is as we see the evidence now.
Mr. Scherer. Can we say, Mr. Doyle, further, that this type of
evidence of Communist control of committees for the protection of
foreign born is not confined only to the Los Angeles Committee and
San Francisco Committee, but we found that same thing to be true in
our hearings in Washington, Youngstown, and Chicago. At those
hearings we had witnesses subpenaed not only from those cities, but
from other areas.
So the pattern is the same not only in California but all over the
United States.
)
Well, if the people in the great Northwest wanted to support that

kind of thing, they have notice now of what they are paying to.
Go ahead, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. The next witness, Mr. Chairman, if you please, will be
Marion Kinney.
Mr. Doyle. Mrs. Kinney, will you please raise your right hand.
Mrs. Kinney. Mr. Chairman, may I request no pictures.
Mr. Doyle. Be sworn first. You are not before the committee until
you are sworn.
Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God ?
Mrs. Kinney. I do.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. MAEION KINNEY, ACCOMPANIED BY

COUNSEL, CHESTER ADAIR
pation.
Mrs. Kinney. May I make a request for no pictures '^
Mr. Doyle. I beg your pardon ?

Mrs. Kinney. May I make a request for no pictures ? I prefer not
to have any pictures.
Mr. Doyle. No pictures will be taken while you are testifying.
That is the rule of the committee.
Mrs. Kinney. All right.
Mr. Doyle. We never interfere with the freedom of the press, how-
ever. May I make that clear.
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence and occu-
pation.
Mrs. Kinney. My name is Marion Kinney. I live in Seattle.
Mr. Arens. I can't hear you. Would you get closer to the micro-
phone and raise your voice a little bit, please.
Mrs. Kinney. My name is Marion Kinney. I live in Seattle and
Mrs. Kinney. I am not working.
was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American
Activities ?
Mrs. Kinney. Yes I am.
;

Mrs. Kinney. Yes I am represented by counsel.
;

Mr. Adair. I am Chester Adair, a trustee of the Seattle Bar Asso-
ciation. I am representing Mrs. Kinney at her request, she being in-
digent, xind at the request, as I understand, of both your committee
and the officers of the bar association to help those who are without
counsel.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mrs. Kinney
Mr. Sciierer. May I interrupt. Did I understand you to say, Mrs.
Kinney, that you are presently unemployed ? Did you say you ha.d no
occupation ?
Mrs. Kinney. I am not working now.
) ))

Mr. ScuEKER. Not Avorking now. Do you receive any compensation
Washington Committee for Protection of For-
as secretary for the
eign Born ?
Mrs. Kinney, I believe, Mr. Chairman, that I shall decline to answer
—
that question because I believe that that an answer to that question
may tend to abrogate my rights under tlie fifth amendment of the
Constitution in whicli it may be a link in a chain of evidence at some
future Hme. It may be used to incriminate me and against me.
Mr. ScHERER. Now, you are the IMarion Kinney, are you not, who
is one of the plaintiffs in the complaint filed against the members of
this committee in the Federal court yesterday ?
jVIrs. Kinney. May I have a glass of water, Mr. Chairman? Thank
you.
Mrs. Kinney. I make <he same answer to that question, Mr. Chair-
man.
Mr. Scherer. You mean you refuse to tell us whether you are the
Marion Kinney who just yesterday filed a complaint in the Federal
courts ? Do I understand that to be your answer, that you are refusing
to answer on the gi'ounds of the fifth amendment ?
Mrs. Kinney. I decline to answer the question.
Mr. Scherer. Mr. Chairman, I ask that you direct the witness to
answer the question.
Mr. Doyle. Yes; I direct you to answer that question.
Mr. Scherer. I can't possibly see how answering that question would
incriminate her.
Mrs. Kinney. Would you please state that question a^rain ?
Mr. Scheiier. I merely asked whether or not you were one of the
petitioners, one of the plaintiffs, in an action filed yesterday in the
Federal court against the members of this subcommittee.
Mr. Doyle. I think, Mr. Scherer, for the purpose of the record we
should identify that action as "Civil Action File No. 4287." Merely
for the purpose of the record identification.
Mr. Scherer. Yes. I understand that the chairman has directed
you, Mrs. Kinney, to answer that question.
Mrs. Kinney. May I see that, Mr. Chairman ?
ivlr. Scherer. Would you hand her a copy of it?
Mr. Doyle. Here is a copy.

( Document handed to witness.
Mr. Scherer. Witness, you signed it, and swore to it day before
yesterday ?
( The witness examines the document.
Mrs. Kinney. Didn't you say they weren't going to take any pic-
tures during the session ?
Mr. Doyle. I didn't take the picture. I don't know who did. I was
reading a document here.
)
Mr. ScHERER. I think that is an order, a rule of the committee.

Photographer. I wasn't here when they issued that. I just came
in, sir.
Mr. Doyle. I stated the rule, a standing rule of the committee, that
after a person is under oath and while they are testifying, only under
oath, that we permit no pictures if the witness requests no pictures.
But we will not undertake to take jurisdiction of the press and inter-
fere with their freedom before the witness is sworn or afterward.
Photographer. I will cooperate with you.
Mr. Doyle. We believe in the freedom of the press very, very much^
Photographer. Thank you.
Mrs. Kinney. Well, I am the Marion Kinney who signed a docu-
ment similar to this.
Mr. Scherer. And you swore to the allegations set forth in that
complaint, did you not, before a notary public ?
Mrs. Kjnney. I swore to a document similar to this before a notary
public.
Mr. Scherer. This is the copy that was filed with your original
copy and was given to the members of the committee by the marshal
on their arrival in town. Do you know the notary before whom you
made affidavit?
Mrs. ICjnney. I decline to answer that question for the same rea-
sons. I don't have to state my constitutional privilege every time,
dol?
Mr. Scherer. No. If you say "for the same reason," we understand
then that you are invoking the fifth amendment. Is that correct?
Mrs. Kinney. That is correct.
Mr. Scherer. In refusing to answer the question.
Mrs. Kinney. And therefore we can save time.
Mr. Scherer. You knew Jolin Caughlan to be a member of the
Communist Party, did you not ? Do you not ?
Mrs. Kinney. I decline to answer that question, Mr. Chairman, for
the same reasons.
Mr. Scherer. Now, when you swore to the allegations set forth in
this complaint, was everything you said in this complaint true?
(The witness confers with her comisel.)
Mrs. Kinney. I decline to answer that question, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Scherer. Do you mean
Mrs. I^NNEY. On the same grounds.
Mr. Scherer. Do you mean to tell us that you will not tell this com-
mittee whether the allegations you made in a petition in the Federal
court just yesterday were true, when you swore to those allegations?
Mrs. Kjnney. That is the same question, Mr. Chairman, and I
decline to answer that question.
Mr. Scherer. For the reasons given ?
Mrs. Kinney. On the same grounds.
)
Mr. ScHEKER. Well, did you make any false statements in this com-
plaint in the Federal court ?
Mrs. Kinney. I believe that is the same question, and I decline to

answer for the same reasons.
Mr. ScHERER. I believe you did say^ however, that you did swear to
the allegations, did you not, contained in that complaint ?
Mrs. Kinney. I believe tlie' record will have to show what I
answered.
Mr. ScHERER. I am not clear. Wliat does the record show ?
Mrs. Kinney. Get the man to read it.
Mr. Scherer. Would you look, Keporter, and see what she said with
reference to whether or not she swore to the original of this complaint ?
(The record was read by the reporter as follows :)
Mrs. Kinney. Well, I am the Marion Kinney who signed a document similar
to this.
Mr. Scherer. My recollection is that I asked her a subsequent ques-

tion. I will repeat
it again. Did you swear to the allegations set
forth in this complaint ?
Mrs. Ivinney. I decline to answer that question for the same reasons.
Mr. Scherer. Now, Reporter, will you again search the record to
see whether or not, following the question which you just read,
there was a subsequent question by me with reference to her swear-
ing to the allegations in the complaint? I am not certain, but my
best recollection is that I did ask the question and she said "Yes."
Read the question and answer after the one you read before.
(The record was read by the reporter as follows :)
Mr. ScHEEEiR. And you swore to the allegations set forth in that complaint, did
you not, before a notary public ?
Mrs. Kinney. I swore to a document similar to this before a notary public.
Mr. Scherer. I thought she said that.

That is all the questions I have at this time, Mr. Counsel. Proceed.
I do have one more question.
When you swore, as you said you did, to the allegations set forth
in this complaint, were you telling the truth ?
Mrs. Kinney. Upon the advice of my counsel, Mr. Chairman, I
decline to answêr that question on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Scherer. That can only lead this committee to draw one conclu-
—
sion then perhaps you did not tell the truth insofar as all of the alle-
gations are contained in this complaint.
Mrs. Kinney. Is that a question ?
Mr. Scherer. No; it is an observation, a conclusion that I reach.
T think anybody else in the room could only reach that conclusion.
Go ahead, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Doyle. All right, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Kinney, are you now a member of the Communist
Party?
)
Mrs. Kinney. I decline to answer that question on the grounds pre-

viously stated.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Hartle, would you kindly stand up.
(Witness Hartle stood up.)
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Kinney, look at this lady who is standing? there.
Mrs. Kinney. Yes I am looking at her.
;
Mr. Arens. I beg your pardon.

Mrs. Kinxi:y. I am looking at her.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever seen her before ?
Mr. Doyle. May the record show that Chairman Doyle is leaving
the committee for just time enough to answer an emergency long-
distance phone call at this time, in the next room. I will be right
back.
( Representative Doyle left the hearing room.
Mr, Arens. Have you ever seen that lady before who is standing:
there? ^
Mrs. Kinney. I decline to answer that question upon the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Arens, That lady standing there is Mrs. Hartle. Just a little
while ago she testified under oath that she knew you as a Communist.
Was she lying or was she telling the truth ?
Mrs. Kinney. I decline to answer that question u])on the grounds
as previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Now, we want to display to you a check, photographic
copy of a check on the Pacific National Bank of Seattle, drawn by
Marion Kinney, payable to the order of the American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born. Kindly look at that check and tell this
committee while you are under oath whether you drew that check.
(The witness conferred wdth her counsel and examines document.)
Mrs. Kinney. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. For what grounds ?
Mrs. Kinney. On the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Now, we display to you a photostatic copy of an article
appearing in the Daily People's World of July 1949, an article telling
about formation of a new chapter of the Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born, with Marion Kinney as vice chairman. Look at that
article, please, and tell this committee whether or not the facts re-
cited therein are true and correct to your knowledge.
Mrs. Kinney. I decline to answer that question, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Arens. For the same reasons ?
Mrs. Kinney. Precisely.
Mr. Arens. Now, earlier this year, the Subversive Activities Con-
trol Board subpenaed before it Abner Green, or at least he appeared
before the Subversive Activities Control Board with reference to the
functions of that Board, to ascertain the nature of the American
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, Abner Green testified
under oath. During the course of his testimony under oath before the
Subversive Activities Control Board, he was asked about the North-
? )
west Committee for Protection of Foreign Born and the Washington

(Representative Doyle returned to the hearing room.)
Here is one particular question I would like to read to you.
Q. Is Mrs. Kinney presently associated or connected in any way witli the
Northwest Committee V
A. I believe she is secretary of the Northwest Comnîttee at the present time.
Was Mr. Green lying or was he telling the truth ?
Mrs. Kinney. I decline to answer that question for the same reasons.
Mr. Arens.' Mr. Green likewise identified in connection with your
organization Lenus, L-e-n-u-s, Westman, and Mabel Conrad as officers
of that organization. Was he lying or was he telling the truth?
Mr. Arens. Now, the subpena which was served upon you calls
upon you to produce before this committee certain documents, does it
not?
Mrs. Kinney. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Do you have those documents in your custody and
control
Mrs. Kinney. I decline to answer that question, Mr. Chairman, on

the basis that I stated originally of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel that if you told this committee
whether or not you have custody and control of the documents called
for in the subpena which was served upon you, you would be supply-
ing information which might be used against you in a criminal pro-
ceeding ?
Mrs. Kinney. Any answer that I might give to that question might
tend to be used against me and to incriminate me in any proceeding
that might be subsequently instituted.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that this record
now at this time reflect an order and direction to this witness, in view
of the status of the record, to produce forthwith the documents called
for in the subpena duces tecum which was served upon her, and I
further request that the body of the subpena duces tecum be in-
corporated in the record.
Mr. Doyle. I make the order as to the subpena, that it be embodied
in the record. The subpena duces tecum. And I order and direct you,
Mrs. Kinney, to answer that question and produce each and every
record identified in tlie subpena.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 621 and 622," see appendix, pp.
8212, 8213.)
Mr. Scherer. She swore to the original.
Mr. Doyle. Yes; and 'apparently a copy of an original which was
on file in court, because it was a copy served upon Mr. Wheeler, our
—
chief investigator I mean a copy from whicli you testified was the
one served ou him by tlie United States marshal last niglit. So I
think Ave are fair to you, in assuming tliat it is a true and correct copy
of the original in court. And in that document you identified and
swore under oatli that you had all of these documents which were
)
6964 COMMXJNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
asked for in the subpena duces tecum You swore to that day before
yesterday.
Those are the documents we are asking you to produce now. It did
not incriminate you to swear to that in Federal Court day before
yesterday.
Mr. DoTXE. So I direct you to answer the question and produce
each and every document identified in the subpena, including each
and every document that you identified under oath in the action which
you filed against the members of this committee day before yesterday
in Federal Court in Seattle, of which you said you had custody in that
case.
Mr, ScHERER. You can go ahead and answer the question.
Mrs. Kinney. Any answer that I might give to that question, Mr.
Chairman, might tend in the direction of incriminating me, and there-
fore I claim the protection of the fifth amendment.
Mr. ScHERER. It was the subpena requesting those records that you
asked the Federal Court to quash in your action yesterday, and are
you still refusing to produce those records in view of the adverse
ruling of the Federal Court at 9 o'clock this morning, tlie adverse
ruling that you received?
Mr. Arens. Now, we are going to display to yoU a signature card
from the Pacific National Bank of Seattle signed by yourself as an
officer of the Northwest Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Also a resolution signed by yourself as an officer for the Northwest
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. Kindly look at this card
and the accompanying resolution and see if you will be good enough
to authenticate your signature.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 623a, b," see appendix, pp. 8214,
8215.)
Mr. Arens. And verify the authenticity of your signature, I should
say.
While she doing that, I respectfully suggest that if, as, and when
is
this witness signs a voucher for her per diem that that part of the
voucher bearing her signature be incorporated in the body of the
record for comparison of signatures.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 624," for identification purposes.)^
Mr. Doyle. That order will be made.

the same grounds.
Mr. Arens, Now, we are going to display to you a number of docu-
ments. First is a card from the Fifth Annual Southern California
Conference to Protect the Rights of Foreign Born Americans, in which
you are identified as representative of the Washington Committee sec- ;
ond are documents of the Northwest Committee and the Washington

(ômmittee for Protection of Foreign Born setting forth the program
of activities of those two organizations, witli yourself identified as
cluiirman of various committees and as executive secretary of these
two particular committees.
1 Signed voucher not returned at date of printing of testimony.

: )
COMJVIUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6965
Mr. Arens. I am grouping these documents now, because we are

very much
pressed for time.
Kindly look at those documents and see if you would be good
enough to verify their authenticity for this committee.
(Documents marked "Exhibit Nos. 625-630," see appendix, pp. 8216-
8225.)
(The witness examines documents and confers with her counsel.)
Mrs. Kinney. Mr. Chairman, I decline to answer the question on
the same grounds.
the staff interrogation of this witness, except for this question which
I don't believe we have asked
Are you now a member of the Communist conspiracy ?
Mrs. Kinney. I decline to answer that question, Mr. Chairman,
on tlie same grounds.
jNIr. Doyle. Any further questions, Mr. Scherer ?
Mr. Scheker. Witness, since you have represented to the Seattle
Bar Association that you have no funds to employ counsel, I assume
then that you did not pay the fees and the costs involved in filing this
suit in the Federal court yesterday. Will you tell us', then, who did
pay it ?
The witness confers with her counsel.)
(
Mrs. Kinney. I decline to answer that question on the same grounds.

Mr. Scherer. Isn't it a fact that the Communist Party paid the costs
involved and advanced the costs involved in the filing of this litiga-
tion, and is also assuming the counsel fees involved in the presenta-
tion of this matter in the Federal Court?
jNIrs. Kinney. I decline to answer that question on the same groiuids.
Mr. Scherer. You signed this complaint. Who are your attorneys
in that action that you filed yesterday ?
the grounds that I cited previously.
Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the
question.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you and order you to answer that question, Mrs.
Kinney. It is usual for the attorneys in the State of California, at
least, to sign
Mr. Scherer. One of them did.
Mr. Doyle. Sign pleadings in both the State courts and the Federal
courts.
(The witness conferred with her counsel.)
Mr. Scheri^j:. The copy discloses only the notary public.
Mr. Doyle. In this complaint, the copy that we have that was served
on Mr. Wheeler only discloses the notary public.
Mrs. Kinney. Pardon me, I didn't hear your question.
Mr. Scherer. There is a direction by the Chair that you answer my
question as to who is your counsel in the litigation filed in the Federal
court yesterday. Because the copy that was served on the staff of this
committee does not indicate, with the exception of the notary, who
that counsel is.
Mrs. Kinney. May I see that complaint, Mr. Chairman ?
85333— 57—pt. 1 53
(Document handed to the witness.)

Mr. SciiERER. "Would that make any difference as to answering the
question as to who your counsel is ? We could go over of course and
look at it in. the Federal court in the records of the Federal court but
I think since it is a matter of public record you have no right to invoke
the fifth amendment in refusing to answer the committee's question.
Mr. ScHERER. How could it possibly incriminate you to say who
represented you in the suit filed yesterday? If I ask you whether
one of them is a Communist then you can properly invoke the
fifth amendment. But you can't invoke the fifth amendment in good
faith in refusing to answer my question who your counsel was in the
suit filed yesterday.
(The witness confers with her counsel and examines document.)
Mrs. I^NNEY. Mr. Chairman, I think that it is a matter on the
record as to who the attorneys were that signed the complaint.
Mr. ScHERER. The mere fact that it is on the record then doesn't
relieve you from telling. That fact alone prevents you in my opinion
from invoking the fifth amendment when I asked you who your
counsel were. It is kind of ridiculous, isn't it, to invoke the fifth
amendment ?
IMrs. Kinney. I don't even recall all the counsel.
Mr. ScHERER. You don't know who all the counsel were ? Was John
Caughlan, the man wlio acted as notary public, one of counsel, then ?
Mrs. Kinney. I don't loiow, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Scherer. You don't know whether he was one of counsel?
Who selected these counsel?
Mrs. Kinney. You will have to go to the record and find out.
Mr. Scherer. Do you know John Caughlan, then ?
based upon my privilege under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. Who selected these counsel, then, for you if you don't
know who they are ?
Mrs. Kinney. I decline to answer that question based upon my
privilege.
Mr. Scherer. Did you read the allegations in that complaint before
you signed the complaint ?
Mrs. Kinney. I decline to answer that question for the same rea-
sons.
Mr. Scherer. Do you know what is in that complaint ?
Mrs. Kinney. I decline to answer that question for the same rea-
sons, Mr. Chairman.
— —
Mr. Scherer. "V\Tien you signed that complaint you told us be-
fore you swore to it were you in the presence of the notary, John
Caughlan, when you signed that complaint? Did you swear to it in
his presence?
: : «

for
the same reasons.
Mr. ScHERER. I think it is abundantly clear, now, what the situa-
tion IS. You know John Caughlan to be a member of the Communist
Farty, do you not ?
Mrs. KiNNET. I decline to answer that question, Mr. Chairman,
for
the same reasons.
Mr. ScHERER. I think it is abundantly clear to the
committee and
everyone else just what happened in this case.
Mr. DoYLE. May I ask— I have before me a check,
No. 570, drawn
on the Pacific National Bank of Seattle, dated
September 1956 It
is signed by you, apparently.
This was alreadv presented to you bv
our worthy counsel and there appears to be
your signature upon it
for the Washington State Committee for
Protection of Forei<rn Born
made payable to the American Committee for Protection of
Born I just wish to recall, Mr. Scherer, as in other casesForeign
in Los
Angeles and San Francisco, where the funds contributed
by, pre-
sumably the unsuspecting American public, are dispensed
by persons
Identified under oath as Communists. So again I want to say to the
people that read this record, or hear us, that they want to
do that with
their eyes open. They should have their eves opened by this time
One thing more, Mrs. Kinney I have before me a letter, an open
:
letter on the Walter-McCarran law, and I will

read just two short
paragraphs
the ^ ^r^"!^^ tîs letter because I am very deeply interested in the work of
^yl Waslnngton
Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born. The
J-ne committee
ISan unaffiliated, nonpartisan body—
notice "unaffiliated," Mr. Scherer—
^'^'*^''^''''' ""^ democratic rights of aU foreign-born residents of
thJunftid spates
And then skipping over to the last page—this is 23/ pages lone-
type written— it says /-ire ig,
*^^^ *^^ P^"P^^ ^^ Seattle and our State will find a way
increasing i^""^^
nf^°n.?''^'°^
of the opposition to the Walter-McCarran law.
'' ^^^^^-
I think the
^^™
^^ --^^^ ^' ^^'
wS
--'
sXZtrhSfe^sy^îr*^^"^"^
Do you know who apparently signed that, Mr. Scherer ?
copy of a signature, John W. Caughlan. He Here is a
has been identified here
Mrs. Kinney. Will you read the whole thing,

Mr. Chairman
Mr. Scherer. No.
Mr. Doyle. He has been identified here as the father
of John Cau^^h-
an, who has been identified here under
oath as a Communist who,
Jumselt, IS tlie cliairman, according to the
sworn complaint under oatli
in the district court, which we have
been discussing, and of which vou
ofth, yesterday, in the Federal court, the com-
^l\ Y'l'^'^y-^'''^^^
plaint showed— were the executive secretary.
I just wish to say this: This 2-page
document with which you ap-
parently are familiar, and I only read it
because it is addressed as an
open letter. I presume therefore it is a liand-out
to the public and
^Pff?- The address of the gentleman is 4408 92d Avenue, North-
I. .
east Bellview, Wash. He attacks
unmercifully Francis E Walter
the chairman of the full Committee on Un-American Activities. I

just wish to say that Chairman Walter didn't hesitate at a matter of
great personal sacrifice and inconvenience when the Russian Com-
—
munists began butchering the people of Hungary men, women, and
—
children, because of their beliefs and desire for freedom Chairman
Walter didn't hesitate to go' at once to Hungary and Austria and cut
all the red tape he could to get thousands of refugees from Hungary
into the United States in accordance with the Walter-McCarran bill
and all the other Federal statutes.
Mr. ScHERER. It was the Walter-McCarran Act that made possible
the receipt of these refugees.
Mr. Doyle. That is right. I just wish the record to show that he
didn't hesitate to do that, and they were foreign born, every one of
them.
Mr. ScHERER. They are not interested in those people, because they
are not Communists.
Mr. Doyle. I am mighty proud of my country, that already we are
spending millions of dollars in transportation and otherwise, to give
those people a haven of freedom from the murderous attack of the
very Soviet propaganda which some people before this committee in
the last few years, many of them, support. In fact, the Communists
have a habit of supporting that sort of butchering. At least they
don't speak out against it. They don't resolve against that.
Mr. ScHERER. I resent also the attack on Chairman Walter of this
committee. Chairman Walter happens to be a Democrat and I dis-
agree with him on some things but he is a great American. And cer-
tainly this attack is unjustified.
Mr. Doyle. I knew you felt that way about it and that is the reason
I brought it out, for your information.
The reason he went over there and wore himself out physically to
help protect those people to bring them to this country is the reason
he is not here presiding as chairman of this committee this morning
instead of me being here.
The committee is excused until 2 o'clock.
(Whereupon, at 12:40 p. m., the committee was recessed, to recon-
vene at 2 p. m. the same day.)
AFTERNOON SESSION—THURSDAY, DECEMBER 13, 1956
(Committee members present Representatives Doyle and Scherer.)

:
Mr. Doyle. The committee will please reconvene.

May the record please show, Mr. Reporter, that of the subcommit-
tee of three. Members Scherer of Ohio, on my right, and Doyle of
California, acting as subcommittee chairman, are both personally pres-
ent therefore, a legal quorum constituting two is here present.
;
Proceed, Mr. Arens.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I should like to announce that the next
witness who was scheduled was Dr. Barney Malbin. His attorney has
appeared and presented to the committee a doctor's certificate to the
effect that Dr. Malbin is confined to the hospital, and would therefore
be unable to appear. I therefore respectfully suggest he be excused
from appearance today, but that he be continued under his subpena for
an indefinite time until he can be called by the committee.
Mr. Doyle. It will be so ordered.
Mr. Aeens. The next witness, if you please, is Mr. Lawrence Sef ton.
Mr. Sef ton, will you please come forward ?
I beg your pardon, I thought she (Mrs. Kinney) was excused.
Mr. Doyle. Excuse me just a minute.
Are there any other questions ?
Mr. ScHERER. No. I didn't see her there.
Mr. Doyle. This witness is excused. Thank you. Counsel.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Lawrence Sef ton, please come forward.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Sefton, will you first be sworn. Do you solemnly
swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
help you God?
Mr. Seftox. I do.
TESTIMONY OF LAWRENCE SEFTON, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,

FSANK H. POZZI AND BERKELEY LENT
cupation.
Mr. Sefton. Did you say name, residence, and occupation ?
Mr. Arens. If you please, sir.
Mr. Sefton. My name is Lawrence Sefton. I reside in Portland,
Oreg. And I am a waterfront worker.
Mr. Chairman, I would rather not be photographed.
Mr. Doyle. Well, may I make it clear, please, if there are any news-
paper photographers here who were not here when I announced it be-
fore that if the witness objects after he is sworn, the press will please
not take any pictures out of respect for his request. But before a wit-
ness is svrorn, it certainly is freedom of the press to take the picture
and we have no objection. Proceed, Mr. Arens.
Mr, Arens. IMr. Sefton, you are appearing today in response to a
subpena which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-
Mr. Sefton. That is right.
Mr. Arens. And j'-ou are represented by counsel?
Mrs. Sefton. I am.
jMr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself.
Mr. Pozzi. F. H. Pozzi, Loyalty Building and Mr. Lent, Loyalty
Building, Portland, Oreg.
Mr. Arens. I don't believe we got the name of your associate.
Mr. Pozzi. I\Ir. Lent.
Mr. Arens. Do you want to give his first name, please ?
Mr. Pozzi. Berkeley Lent.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Sefton, are you a member of the Communist Part}'' ?
Mr. Sefton. I respectfully decline to answer that question, based
upon the rights, privileges, and immunities afforded to me by the first,
fourth, fifth, and ninth amendments to the Constitution of the United
States.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Sefton, we display to you now a reproduction of
The Lamp, which the official publication of the American Commit-
is
tee for Protection of Foreign Born. The issue we display to you is
the January 1950 issue, page 2. And in this issue, on this page, among
other things, the following appears:
The Committee for Defense of Four of Oregon's Foreign Born, has issxied an
attractive folder on the Portland deportation cases. A copy of the folder can be
obtained by writing to the committee secretary, Lawrence Sefton, 4616 South-
west Corbett, Portland.Oreg.
Kindly look at this document and tell us whether or not you are
accurately described in that document as secretary of that Committee
for Defense of Four of Oregon's Foreign Born.
(See exhibit No. 14, appendix, p. 7111.)
Mr. Sefton. I respectfully decline to answer that question based
upon the rights, privileges, and immunities afforded to me by the
first, fourth, fifth, ninth, and tenth amendments to the Constitution
of he United States.
Mr. Arens. What is your address in Portland, Oreg. ?
Mr. Sefton. Myaddress is 4616 Southwest Corbett Avenue, Port-
land, Oreg.
Mr. Arens. The record will show of course, Mr. Chairman, that is
the same address of the committee as designated in The Lamp of the
Committee for the Protection of Foreign Bom.
Mr. Doyle. May I suggest this to the witness and counsel will
: We
understand, and receive it: as acceptable and sufficient, if, instead of
reading the ground upon which you rely in your refusal to answer, as
long as they are the constitutional grounds, you will just state "On
the same grounds that I gave before." It will save your time and
ours. We will receive it as sufficient pleading of the constitutional
privilege.
Mr. Sefton. Would the Chair prefer that I use the exact language
that the Chair has just recited?
Mr. Doyle. Oh, no. Don't try to do that. But if you will just say
that you rely upon your constitutional grounds the same as you did
before, it will be sufficient.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Dr. Barney Malbin ?
Mr. Sefton. The same grounds, I decline to answer on the same
grounds.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Dirk De Jonge ?
Mr. Sefton. Again I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that concludes the
staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Scherer, any questions ?
Mr. Scherer. No questions.
Mr. Doyle. I have no questions. Thank you. Witness and Counsel.
The witness is excused.
Mr. Arens. Rachmiel Forschmiedt. R-a-c-h-m-i-e-1, Last name
is F-o-r-s-c-h-m-i-e-d-t.
Mr. Doyle. Please raise your right hand and be sworn. Do you
solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. FORSCHMIEDT. I do.

I respectfully request, Mr. Chairman, that neither the still cameras,
motion picture, or TV cameras be used durin<? my testimony.
Mr. DoTLE. There is no camera being pointed at you now that I can
see. So no photography is going on in the room.
TESTIMONY OF RACHMIEL FORSCHMIEDT, ACCOMPANIED BY

COUNSEL, CHARLES HOROWITZ

pation.
Mr. FoRSCHMiEDT. Kachmicl Forschmiedt, 6757 37th Avenue, SW.,
Seattle.
Mr. Arens. Keep your voice up, Mr. Forschmiedt, so we can hear
you.
Mr. Forschmiedt. That is my customary speaking voice.
Mr. Arens. Would you kindly get a little closer to the microphone.
Mr. Forschmiedt. My occupation, I am self-employed.
Mr. Scherer. I didn't hear you.
Mr. Forschmiedt. Self-employed.
Mr. Arens. Where are you employed, in what line of work ?
Mr. Forschmiedt. I sell.
Mr. Arens. Sell?
Mr. Forschmiedt. Yes.
Mr. Arens. What do you sell?
Mr. Forschmiedt. Whatever I do get to sell.
Mr. Arens. What commodity do you sell ?
Mr. Forschmiedt. Sunglasses and gifts and things of that sort.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a lady by the name of Barbara Hartle ?
Mr. Forschmiedt. On the grounds of the first amendment, which
guarantees the right to freedom of speech and assembly and to petition
Congress for redress of grievances
Mr. Scherer. I cannot hear.
Mr. xVrens. Could you raise your voice a little, please.
Mr. Forschmiedt. On the grounds of the first amendment to the
United States Constitution which guarantees the right of freedom of
assembly and the right to petition Congress for redress of greivances,
and also freedom of speech, and on the basis of the fifth amendment
to the United States Constitution which protects a" person against self-
incrimination, I refuse to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Now you are appearing today in response to a subpena
which was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American
Activities?
Mr. Forschmiedt. Yes.
Mr. Forschmiedt. Yes, sir.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself?
Mr. Horowitz. jMy name, Mr. Chairman, is Charles Horowitz. I
am president of the Seattle Bar Association. I am appear-
first vice
ing here by appointment of the president of the association pursuant
to the policy of the association to provide counsel for indigent wit-
nesses.

(The witness Hartle stood up.)
Mr. Arexs. Now, ]Mr. Forschmiedt, look over to your right there to
the lady who is standinj^. Do you see her ?
Mr, Forschmiedt. Yes.
Mr. Arens. This morning she took an oath before this committee and
testified that she knew you as a member of the Communist Party.
Was she lying or was she telling the truth ?
Mr. Forschmiedt. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Arens. Now, we want to display to you certain signatures for
the Washington State Committee for Protection of Foreign Born,
in which your name appears. One as past president and the other as
president. Kindly look at these signature cards on the Pacific
National Bank of Seattle, of the Washington Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born, and tell this committee while you are under
oath whether or not you are able to identify your signature.
While he is doing that, Mr. Chairman, I respectively suggest that
if, as, and when this witness signs a pay voucher that part of the
voucher bearing his signature be incorporated in the body of the
record.
(Documents marked "Exhibit No. 631" for identification.)^
Mr. Forschmiedt. On the grounds previously stated I refuse to an-
swer that question.
Mr. Arens. Now, we display to you a document of the Northwest
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, which has been identified
in this record as the predecessor organization of the Washington Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born, in which your name appears
as one of the committee. Kindly look at this docmnent and see if you
won't be good enough to verify the designation there of yourself.
Mr. Forscpimiedt. On the grounds previously stated I refuse to
answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Are you now a Communist ?
Mr. Forschmiedt. On the grounds previously stated I refuse to
answer that question.
Mr. Arens. That concludes the staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. ScHERER. I have no questions.
Mr. Doyle. The witness is excused. Thank you. Counsel.
Mr. Arens. Walter Belka, please come forward.
to you, Mr. Belka.
Mr, Doyle. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth,
Mr. Belka. I do.
Mr. Doyle, Thank you. Please occupy the witness chair.
1 Signature cards retained in committee files and signed voucher not returned at date
of printing of testimony.
coMJvruisriST political subversion 6973
TESTIMONY OF WALTER EELKA, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,

JAY G. SYKES
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation.
Mr. Sykes. Might I direct an inquiry to the Chair?
Mr. Arens. Sui-ely. Is this witness hard of hearing ?
Mr. Sykes. No; he is not hard of hearing.
Mr. Arexs. There was some witness whose counsel said he or she
was hard of hearing and I made a notation. I see it now. It is another
witness.
Mr. Sykes. Mr. Chairman, I am not certain whether the Chair or
the committee counsel has stated officially the scope of these hearings.
Mr. Doyle. We have stated them, and if that is your inquiry I am
sorry we can't take time now to repeat them again.
JVIr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and
occupation, Mr. Belka.
Mr. Belka. My name is Walter Belka. I live in Seattle.
Mr. Aeens. Please complete the answer.
Mr. Belka. I decline to answer this question or any further ques-
tions of the conmiittee on the grounds that the scope and purpose of
this committee, as stated by the committee, is beyond the scope of
its mandate, and is in violation of the first amendment to the Constitu-
tion and article I, section 8, of the Constitution.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that the witness
be now ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. Doyle. I direct, Witness, that you answer that last question,
please.
Belka. I must decline to answer the question on the grounds
]\Ir.
previously stated.
Mr. Arens. In view of the rather poor acoustics here, I don't know
whether you invoked the fifth amendment or not.
Mr. Belka, did you invoke the provisions of the fifth amendment
in response to tliat question ? The noise outside and the acoustics here
are rather poor.
Mr. Belka. I did not.
Mr. Arens. What is your home address ?
Mr. Belka. 2921 12th Avenue South.
Mr. Arens. Are you a Communist ?
Îr. BELKiV. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Let's get the record clear. Do the grounds previously
stated with reference to this last principal question include an invoca-
tion of the fifth amendment ?
Mr. Belka. It did not include it, Counsel.
Mr. Arens. I beg your pardon.
Mr. Belka. It did not include it, Counsel.
:
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today in response to a subpena

Activities?
Mr. Belka. Will you repeat the question, please?
Activities ?
Mr. Belka. Yes I am.
;

Mr. Belka. I am.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, kindly identify yourself.
Mr. Sykes. Jay G. Sykes, Seattle.
(The witness Hartle stood up.)
Mr. Arens. Mr. Belka, would you kindly look at the lady there
standing by the window.
Mr. Arens. Do you see her ?
Mr. Belka. Could slie come a little closer, please.
Mr. Arens. Yes. Would you step over a little. It is a little dark
there by the
Mr. Belka. I see her.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever seen her before ?
Mr. Belka. Yes I have seen her before.
;
Mr. Arens. "Wliere?

Mr. Belka. I think I saw her on TV in some of the previous
hearings.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever seen her in a Communist Party meeting ?
Mr. Belka. I refuse to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Ar.ENS. This lady took an oath this morning and laid herself
open to perjury prosecution if she lied, and she said that she knew you
as a Communist.
While you are under oath, will you tell this committee was she lying
or was she telling the truth ?
Mr. Belka. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Now, I would like to invite your attention to a few ex-
hibits. First of all, we have here a document from the Daily Worker,
New York, March 10, 1950
Northwest Group Protests Mundt Bill
The Washington Pension Union has sent emergency notices to locals represent-
members calling for certain protests against the Mundt bill.
ing 18,000
That was the anti-Communist bill when it was in the Congress.
Karly Larsen, president, and Walter Belka, secretary of the Northwestern
Washington District Council, International Woodworkers of America.
Kindly look at that document and see if you were appropriately
designated there, and if you were one who was active in that enter-
prise described in the Communist Daily Worker.
) :
COMMTJlSriST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6975

Mr. Belka. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Belka, I show you two photostats which
have been introduced into this record. One is an application form
for membership in the Northwest Committee for Protection of For-
eign Born and the other is a call to a conference to fight deportation
of certain people under the auspices of the Northwest Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born. Your name appears as a member of the
official group in each instance.
(See exhibits Nos. 617 and 618, appendix, pp. 8205-8209.)
(The witness examines document and confers with counsel.)
Mr. Belka. I decline to answer on the grounds previously given.
Mr. Arexs. Have you been rather active in defense of the Bill of
Rights in tlie course of the last few years?
Mr. Belka. Well, I think I have been.
Mr. Arens. Tell us what you have done in defense of the Bill of
Rights in the course of the last few years?
Mr. Belka. I decline to answer on the grounds previously given.
Mr. Arens. As an upstanding citizen, you certainly wouldn't feel
ashamed of anj^thing you did to defend the great Bill of Rights,
would 3'ou ?
Mr. Belka. No I think everybody should defend the Bill of Rights,

;
Mr. Counsel.
Mr. Arens. I want to see if you can help us.
Here is an article from the Daily Worker of June 6, 1949 "Men of
:
labor and civic leaders throughout Nation voice indignation." It

talks about Judge Medina, who tried the 11 Communist traitors in
New York City, and we see here the following
Speaking for tbe Northern Washuigton District Council of the International
Woodworliers of America, Karly Larsen, president and Walter Belka, secretary,
wired Medina "Your high-handed action makes a mockery of the Bill of Rights."
:
Look at that document and see if that is what you mean when you
were telling us about your defense of the Bill of Rights, your attack
upon the Federal judge who sentenced 11 Communists traitors to the
penitentiary.
(The witness examines document and confers with counsel.)
Mr. Belka. I have an opinion on that, Mr. Counsel.
My. Belka. I have an opinion on that.
Mr. Arens. We would be delighted to have you express it.
Mr. Belka. I would be delighted to discuss it with you probably
someplace else.
Ml'. Arens. You mean after you are released from the pains and
penalties of j'ôur oath?
Mr. Belka. I decline to answer for the groimds previously given.
Mr. Scherer. I have no questions.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you, witness and counsel. You are both excused.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Dirk De Jonge, kindly come forward.

Mr. Doyle. Please raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear
to tell the .truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God?
Mr. De Jonge. I do.
TESTIMONY OF DIRK DE JONGE

pation.
Mr. De Jonge. My name is Dirk De Jonge. I am a retired lumber
worker, and I live at 1415 Southwest Alder Street, Portland, Oreg.
Activities ?
Mr. De Jonge. Yes, I was served a subpena.
Mr. Arens. Mr. De Jonge, you are not represented by counsel?
Mr. De Jonge. No, I am not.
Mr. Arens. Mr. De Jonge, are you a Communist ?
Mr. De Jonge. I decline to answer that on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr. De Jonge, I want to lav before you first of all a
document from the International Labor Defense, which this record
shows is a predecessor organization to the American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born. Dirk De Jonge is listed here as a
member of the national committee.
Kindly look at this document issued by the International Labor
Defense, and tell this committee whether or not you are accurately
designated.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 633," see ai)pendix, p. 8227.)
Mr. De Jonge. I decline to answer this question on the basis of the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of Homer L. Owen,
0-w-e-n ?
Mr. De Jonge. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Owen took an oath before this committee and laid
his liberty on the line and said, while he was under oath, that he knew
you as a member of the Communist conspiracy. Was he lying or was
he telling the truth ?
Mr. De Jonge. I decline to answer that question, also.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. De Jonge, are you connected with the Oregon
Com.mittee for Protection of Foreign Born?
Mr. De Jonge. I decline to answer that on the same basis.
Mr. Arens. I want to lay before you, if you please, sir, another
document. It is from the Daily Worker of December 1934, with
reference to a trial of Edward Denny, Daily Worker salesman,
charged with criminal syndicalism. According to this article in Port-
land, Don Cluster, 21-year-old organizer of the Young Communist
League has been sentenced to jail and Dirk De Jonge, Communist
candidate for mayor in the last municipal election, to 7 years.
Kindly look at this document and tell this committee while you are
under oath whether you were accurately described there.

Mr. De Jonge. I decline to answer this question on the same basis.
Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, sir, that jo\i are now one of the
chairmen, or you recently were one of the chairmen, of the Oregon
INIr. De Jonge. I decline to answer that question also.
Mr. Arexs. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, that concludes
Mr. Doyle. Thank you, Mr. De Jonge. You are excused from fur-
ther attendance.
Mr. Arens. Mary Jane Tancioco, T-a-n-c-i-o-c-o.
Mr. Doyle. Please raise your right hand and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth
Mrs. Tancioco. I do.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you.
TESTIMONY OF MES. MAHY JANE TANCIOCO, ACCOMPANIED

BY COUNSEL, FSANK H. POZZI AND BEEKELEY LENT
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence and oc-
cupation.
Mrs. Tancioco. My name is jMrs. Mury Jane Tancioco. My address
is 7805 Southwest Taylors Ferry Road, Portland, Oreg. I am a stenog-
rapher-receptionist.
tivities ?

Mrs. Tancioco. Yes, I am.
Mrs. Tancioco. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Will counsel kindly identify yourselves.
Mr. Pozzi. F. H. Pozzi, Loyalty Building, Portland, Oreg. Berke- ;
ley Lent, Loyalty Building, Portland, Oreg.

Mrs. Tancioco. Sir, I would prefer not to be televised. I don't
know whether the television cameras are operating but I would like
to ask
Mr. Arens. It is off noAv, I believe.
Mrs. Tancioco. Thank you.
Mr. Arens. What was your maiden name, ma'am ?
Mrs. Tancioco. My maiden name was Brewster, B-r-e-w-s-t-e-r.
Mr. Arens. Then you have been known both as Mary Jane Brewster
and as Mary Jane Tancioco ?
Mrs. Tancioco. Tan-chi-yoko.
Mr. Arens. Tan-chi-yoko.
Mrs. Tancioco. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Now, we display to you an original letter of the Com-
mittee for Protection of Oregon's Foreign Born, dated February 9^
1953, bearing the name Mary Jane Tancioco as 'corresponding sec-
)
retary. Kindly look at this document and tell this committee whether
or not that is your signature and whether or not you are accurately
described therein as corresponding secretary of that organization.
^Docment marked "Exhibit No. 635," see appendix, p. 8229.)
Mrs. Tancioco. Sir, I respectfully decline to answer that question
based on the rights, privileges and immunities afforded to me by the
first, fourth, fifth, ninth and tenth amendments to the Constitution
of the United States.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apprehend that if you told this com-
mittee truthfully whether or not that is your signature you would
be supplying information which could be used against you in a crimi-
nal proceeding ?
Mrs. Tancioco. I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated,
sir.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I suggest the witness be ordered to an-
swer that question.
Mr. DoYLn. I direct you to answer that question.
Mrs. Tancioco. Sir, may I request that you repeat the question.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly fear that if you told this committee
truthfully whether or not that is your signature on this document,
and whetlier-or not you are or have been the executive secretary of
this organization, you wôuld be supplying information which might
be used against you in a criminal proceeding ?
Mrs. Tancioco. Yes.
Do you know a person by the name of Owen, Homer Owen?
(The witness confers with her counsel.)"
Mrs. Tancioco. I respectfully decline to answer on the grounds
previously stated, sir.
Mr. Arens. In 1954 Mr. Owen took an oath before the Committee
on Un-American Activities, laid his liberty on the line, and said while
he was under oath, subject to the pains and penalties of perjury, that
he knew you as a Communist. Was Mr. Owen lying or was he telling
the truth ?
Mrs. Tancioco. I respectfully decline again,sir, to answer on the
grounds stated.
Mr. Arens. Now I display to you, if you please, a reproduction
of a document of the Committee for Protection of Oregon's Foreign
Born, calling for the repeal of the McCarran-Walter Act, attack-
ing the act, m which your name appears. Kindly look at this docu-
ment and tell this committee whether or not you are connected with
the Committee for Protection of Oregon's Foreign Born.
Mrs. Tancioco. I respectfully decline to answer on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. DoYLK. Any questions ?

Mr. ScHERER. No questions.
Mr. Doyle. I have no questions, but I want to reiterate here, and 1
know that some witnesses and counsel are in the hearing room now
who were not here this morning, that this committee recognizes as a
committee of Congress the right of any American citizen to petition
us or to object to any legislation, both that which is on the books and
that which is contemplated. We, for instance, recognize the constitu-
tional riglit of the Communist Party or the Committee for the Pro-
tection of Foreign Born, or any group or any individual to petition
Congress. But we feel full well that we are entitled to know the
identity of the people or groups that are petitioning Congress in order
that we might be able to judge the full weiglit and credit which shall
be given to any petitioning individual or group.
I think, Madam, I should state while you are on the stand, as I
did this morning to some others, that we don't object to the Communist
Party petitioning us. AVe do think that they ought to do it in their
own name, instead of doing it through a dummy organization which
they don't reveal is controlled by the Communist Party. And that is
the main purpose of this hearing, to examine the extent to which the
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born in the NortliAvest is con-
trolled by the Communist conspiracy.
We have no objection to the Communist Party petitioning us, nor
do we have objection to the Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born petitioning us, except that we do now know by these hearings and
otherwise that the Committee for Protection of Foreign Born in
the Northwest is dominated and controlled by identified Communists.
And, therefore, it is the Communist conspiracy in the Northwest which
is in fact petitioning us, undisclosed, under the g! ise of the American
Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born, instead of bona fide
patriotic citizens.
Thank you very much.
Mr. Arens. Just one more question, if you please.
Are you now a member of the Communist conspiracy ?
Mrs. Tancioco. I respectfully decline to answer on the same con-
stitutional grounds.
Mr. Arens. The next witness, if you please, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Doyle. Witness and Counsel, thank you. You are excused.
Mr. Arens. James S. Fantz.
Mr. Pozzi. Is the witness excused from further attendance ?
Mr. Doyle. Yes.
Mr. Arens. F-a-n-t-z.
Mr. Fantz. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JAMES S. FANTZ, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,

FRANK II. POZZI AND BEHKEIEY LENT
pation.
Mr. Fantz. I would like to request that no pictures, television, or
movies be taken, please.
: )
6980 COMAIUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Doyle. That will be observed. The press will gladly cooperate
with us. They will observe your request.
pation.
Mr. Fantz. My name is James S. Fantz. I reside in Portland,
Oreg., and I am employed as a maritime worker.
Mr. Arens. Where are you employed, Mr. Fantz, as a maritime
worker ?
Mr. Fantz. On the waterfront.
Mr. Arens. What capacity ?
Mr. Fantz. As a longshoreman.
was served upon you by the House Committee on Un-American Activi-
ties ?

Mr. Fantz. Yes.
Mr. Fantz. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourselves.
Mr. Pozzi. F. H. Pozzi, Loyalty Building, Portland, Oreg. Berke- ;
ley Lent, Loyalty Building, Portland, Oreg.

Mr. Arens. Mr. Fantz, we display to you now two letters of
different dates, on stationery of the Committee for Protection of
Oregon's Foreign Born, both calling for funds and activities to re-
peal the Immigration and Nationality Act. On these letterheads
your name appears as a sponsor. Kindly look at those documents,
please, sir, Avhile you are under oath, and tell this committee v/hether
or not you are accurately and appropriately identified there.
(See exhibit Nos. 635 and 636, appendix, pp. 8229, 8230.)
Mr. Fantz. I respectfully decline, Mr. Cliairman, to answer that
question based u])on the rights, privileges, and immunities afforded
to me by the 1st, 4th, oth, 9th, and 10th amendments to the Constitu-
tion of the United States.
Mr. Arens. Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of the
Communist conspiracy ?
Mr. Fantz. I decline to answer that on the same grounds previously
stated.
Mr, Arens. Are you now a member of the Communist conspiracy ?
Mr. Fantz. I decline on tlie same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Now we display to you, Mr. Fantz, a pliotostatic copy
of an article apjjearing in the Daily JPeople's World, April 1955, in
which a number of people are attackmg and denouncing the Brownell-
Butler law. That was the law that was pending in the Congress to
enable the Defense De[)artment to oust from defense facilities Com-
munist saboteurs. Among those who are participating in this enter-
prise and protesting the Brownell-Butler law, is listed here James
Fantz, Portland, longshoreman's Local 8, in which Mr. Fantz is
quoted as saying
The Browuell law is a hoax ou the American people and the delegates should
bring back the discussion to the rank and tile. "Today," he said, "there is no free
discussion and we must speak out."
)
Will you kindly, while yon are under oath, speak out and tell this
committee whether or not you are the Fantz who was protesting this
anti-Communist legislation ?
Mr. Fantz. Would you please read back the exact wording of the
question?
Mr. Arens. Mr. Keporter, would you kindly read it to the witness?
(The reporter read from his notes as requested.
Mr. Fantz, I decline to answer this on the grounds previously
stated.
the staff interrogation of this witnes.
Mr. Doyle. May I ask, Mr. Fantz, may we have the benefit of any
other criticism or suggestion you may have, with regard to the in-
ternal security provisions, the antisubversive and anti-Communist
provisions of any of our Federal statutes ? I ask you that so if you
do have any criticism or suggestion, only relating to the antisubver-
—
sive sections of Federal statutes that is what we are concerned with
—
in these hearings I will be glad to get them from you.
(The Avitness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Fantz. Not at this time, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Doyle. I thank you. The witness is excused. Counsel, also.
Mr. Arens. The next witness, if you please, will be Myrna Ander-
son. M-j'-r-n-a Anderson, A-n-d-e-r-s-o-n. Please come forward.
Mr. Barnett. Mr. Chairman, I am one of the Seattle attorneys
appointed by the bar representing the civil rights committee. The
witness has asked me to precede her for reasons of health to ask that
the Chair instruct or request photographers not to take flash pictures
of her and she does not wish to be televised. She was under a tuber-
culosis operation as late as 1953 and she has been nervous and feels
tliat this will be injurious to her.
Mr. Doyle. Well, I will not instruct the press to waive their rights
of freedom. However, they have heard your statement and they are
as anxious to protect the rights, the health, of any citizen as we are.
As you know, the rule is we will not instruct the press in any way
prior to the time a witness is sworn.
Mr. Barnett. The witness feels, Mr, Chairman, that she was com-
pelled by subpena to be here before being sworn. I feel that she is
under protection of the committee.
Mr. Doyle. I know. But we think that maybe waiting an hour or
2 or 3 isn't too long for a witness to wait on a busy hearing of this
kind. I don't think so, Counsel. So let us call your witness and we
will make this as convenient as we can and as easy as we can. "We
regret her illness.
Do you solenmly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and notli-
ing but the truth, so help you God?
Miss Anderson. I do.
Mr. Doyle. May I have the record show tliat I thank the press for
iiot photographing her prior to the time tliat she was sworn. I think
the press deserves a compliment for cooperation.
Mr. Barneit. We certainly thank them, Mr. Chairman.
85333— 57— pt. 1 54
)
TESTIMONY OF MISS MYRNA ANDERSON, ACCOMPANIED BY

COUNSEL, ARTHUR G. BARNETT
cupation.
Miss Anderson. My name is Myrna Anderson. I live in Seattle and
I work as a secretary.
Mr, Arens. Are you a Communist ?
Miss Anderson. I decline to answer that question under the self-
incrimination clause of the fifth amendment to the Constitution.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Barbara Hartle ?
Miss Anderson. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Hartle, would you kindly stand up ?
(Witness Hartle stood up.)
Mr. Arens. Miss Anderson, would you please look to your right
there at Mrs. Hartle. Did you ever see her before ?
Miss Anderson. I decline to answer that question on the same
grounds, fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. She came forward in public testimony under oath and
said she knew you as a Communist, a member of the Communist con-
spiracy. Was she lying or was she telling the truth ?
Miss Anderson. I must decline to answer that question on the basis
of the self-incrimination provisions of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now, vre lay before you two documents, one is an appli-
cation form for membership in the Northwest Committee for Pro-
tection of the Foreign Born; the other is a call to a Northwest con-
ference under the auspices of the Northwest Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born, which is identified here on this document as
an affiliate of tlie American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born. Your name appears in both documents as an officer or spon-
sor, as the case may be, of the organization.
Kindly look at tliose you will be good enough
documents and see if
to verify the authenticity of the designation of yourself.
rSee exhibit Nos. 617 and 618, appendix, pp. 8205-8209.)
Miss Anderson. I must decline to answer the question on the basis
of the self-incrimination provisions of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Are you connected, or have you been connected, with the
United Office and Professional Workers Union?
Miss Anderson. I must decline to answer that question on the basis
of the self-incrimination provision of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. ]Mr. Chairman, I ask you to direct the witness to an-
swer that question, whether she is connected with that union.
Mr. Doylt:. You heard the question. Witness?
(The witness confers witli her counsel.)
Miss Anderson. Yes I heard the question.
;
Mr. Doyle. I instruct you to answer that question.

( The Avitness confers witli her counsel.
Miss Anderson. I must decline to answer the question on the grounds
previously stated.
:
Mr. Arens. Now, this document which we first displayed to you,

you as an official of the United Office and Professional
identifies
Workers Union, indeed, as president of one of the locals of that
organization. Is that a correct designation?
Miss Anderson. I decline to answer on the same grounds previously
stated.
Mr, Arens. Where do you work now ?
Miss Anderson. I am employed by a local automobile firm.
Mr. Arens. How long have you been so employed ?
(The wîtness confers with her counsel.)
Miss Anderson. Approximately 3 years.
Mr. Arens. And what was your employment immediately prior to
that time?
Miss Anderson. I was in Furland Sanitorium.
Mr. Arens. What was your employment prior to that time?
Miss Anderson. I must decline to answer on the basis of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Arens. In view of the record and the exhibits, Mr. Chairman,
identifying this lady with the United Office and Professional Workers
Union, I respectfully suggest that this record at this point reflect
tlie fact that the United t)ffice and Professional Workers Union was
ejected from the CIO because the CIO found that organization
was not in truth and in fact a labor organization but was controlled
by the Communist conspiracy.
]\rr. DoTLE. The record will so show.
JSIr. Arens. Are you connected with the American Peace Crusade ?

Miss Anderson. I must decline to ansY\'er on the basis of the fifth
iimendment.
Mr. Arens. Are you Miss or Mrs. ?
Miss Anderson. I am Miss Anderson.
Mr. Arens. I want to exhibit to you now, if you please, a copy of
the Daily Peoples World of February 1951
Pkace Poll Booms

A peace comrnittee of Local 35, Distributive Processing and Office Worlcers, is
gathering signatures to thie mass "peace poll" sponsored by tlie American Peace
Crusade, President Slyrna Anderson announced this weelv.
And so forth.
Kindly look at tlie document and tell this committee while you
are under oath whether or not you were accurately described there.
(The witness confers with her coimsel and examines document.)
Miss Anderson. I must decline to answer on the grounds previously
stated on the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that will conclude the staff
interrogation of this witness.
Mr. DoYEE. Mr. Scherer, any questions ?
Mr. Scherer. No, Mr. Doyle; I have no questions.
:
Mr. Doyle. I think before the witness is excused, in view of tlie

questions and answers that were given and made at this point, it is
proper for me to call attention to the fact that when I was here in
Seattle on June 14 and 15, 1954, on this committee, I read into the
record a portion of news relase issued by Walter P. Reuther. It was
pertinent at that time, and I think it is pertinent right here because it
refers to UAW-CIO. I will just take the time to read four sentences
by Mr. Reuther, national president of UAW-CIO at that time, and
I quote
We have no quarrel with the professed purposes of the House Committee on
Un-American Activities. Each witness appearing before these committees must
of course make his own individual decision as to the course of action which
he will follow in his testimony. This is a matter of individual conscience and
judgment. However, we in UAW-CIO sincerely urge every witness called before
the House Un-American Activities Committee, if it is at all possible to do so, to
avoid using the fifth amendment.
Just that part of the record as I made it in 1954 in this city.
Mr. Arens. That will conclude the staif interrogation of this
witness,
Mr. Doyle. The witness is excused, and counsel.
Mr. Arens. Sarah Hortense Lesser. H-o-r-t-e-n-s-e L-e-s-s-e-r.
Please come forward.
Miss Lesser. I don't see my attorney. Might I go and look for my
attorney ?
Mr. Arens. Surely. There she comes.
to you.
Mr. Doyle. Will you please raise your right hand and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth,,
Miss Lesser. I do.
Mr. Doyle. Please take a chair.
TESTIMONY OF MISS SARAH HORTENSE LESSER, ACCOMPANIED

BY COUNSEL, JAY G. SYKES
pation.
Miss Lesser. My name is Sarah Lesser. My address is 317 Second
and Cherry Building. I am by occupation an attorney.
Mr. Arens. Is your name Miss or Mrs. ?
Miss Lesser. Miss.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today, Miss Lesser, in response to
a subpena which was served upon you by the House Committee on
Miss Lesser. You can put your hand down. We can see your
grin. Yes.
Miss Lesser. Yes I am.
;
Mr. Arens. Counsel, would you kindly identify yourself.

Mr. Sykes. Jay G. Sykes.
Mr. Arens. Miss Lesser, give us if you please, just a thumbnail
sketch of yoîr education.
Miss Lesser. I am a graduate of the University of Michigan, with
a bachelor of arts degree, and I am a gi-aduate of the University of
Washington with a law degree.
Mr, Arens. And when did you receive your law degree ?
Miss Lesser. In 1951.
Mr. Arens. And you are admitted to practice law in the courts of
the State of Washington ?
Miss Lesser. In the courts of the State of Washington, and in the
Federal courts and in the Immigration Service.
Mr. Arens. You are admitted to practice law in the Immigration
Service, too?
Miss Lesser. That is right, and the circuit court of appeals.
Mr. Arens. You are admitted in the Federal court also?
Miss Lesser. That is right.
I\Ir. Arens. Miss Lesser, when you received your license to practice
law in the courts of this State, did you take an oath to support and
defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, for-
eign and domestic ?
Miss Lesser. Yes of course.
;
Mr. Arens. At the time you took that oath, were you a member of
the Communist Party ?
(The witness confers wdth her counsel.)
Miss Lesser. I have a statement to make at this point, and I want
to get it in.
Mr. Sciierer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the ques-
Chairman.
tion, ]Mr.
Mr. DoTLE. You are instructed to answer.
ISIiss Lesser. I am going to decline to answer that question and I

would like to read a short statement to explain my answer.
Mr, Arens. Just a minute. How long is that statement ?
Miss Lesser. It will take about 1 minute.
Mr. Arens. So we know the source of that statement, was it written
by a member of the Communist conspiracy ?
Miss Lesser. It was written by me. And I don't need anybody
telling me how to w^rite a statement. As I told you, I have two degrees
and I would think that that Avould be sufficient to convince you that I
can write as I please.
Mr. Arens. Tell us, in addition to your degi-ees, wlien you wrote that
statement wore you a member of a conspiratorial apparatus designed to
destroy the Constitution of the United States ?
Miss Lesser. There is a question pending and I said I wished to
answer, read the statement, before I continued and there is a question
pending and I cannot answer two questions at the same time.
Mr. Arens. Accept my apologies, lady. You go right ahead.
Miss Lesser. I have been subpenaed to appear before this committee
to aid it in an investigation w'hich, as to stated purpose, is illegal in
my opinion. The powers given to CongTess are eniunerated in article I,
section 8 of the Constitution. The powers given to the executive and
judicial branchas of the (iovernment are also enumerated in the Con-
stitution. Any other powers remain in the people. And these powers
— —
granted to Congress do not include excuse me the inquiry into
legitimate political activity.
)
g986 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
The first ten amendments of our Constitution were adopted to in-

sure that all citizens of our country could not have certain of their
rights usurped by any branch of the Government. And so the first
amendment states in part that Congress shall make no law abridging
the freedom of speech, or of the press, or of the rights of the people
peaceably to assemble and to petition the Government for a redress
of their grievances. Under that provision it appears to me that not
only President Eisenhower and Mrs. Eleanor Koosevelt and other
dignitaries may state that they consider the Walter-McCarran Act
and other legislation unwise and work for its amendment, revision
or appeal, but I can do it, too. And so can any person.
Mr. Arens. Of course you can.
Miss Lesser. So can any person in this room.
Mr. Arens. Of course you can. We want you to tell us what you
have done along that line.
Miss Lesser. And Congress has no power to prevent it and there-
fore cannot legislate to prevent peaceable opposition. And since Con-
gress has no power to so legislate in this field, it has no such power
to investigate it.
And I wish to point out to the committee that in Rwnely v. United
—
States the Court held that Congress could not give the Court held
in that case that Congress could not give a committee power to
investigate activities intended to influence, encourage, promote or re-
tard legislation or to investigate activities designed to influence legis-
lation indirectly by influencing public opinion, as this committee has
done, because this is beyond any power conferred on Congress by the
Constitution and violates the first amendment.
Therefore, I decline to answer on the grounds of the first amend-
ment and article I, section 8 of the Constitution.
Mr. Arens. Do you want to invoke the fifth amendment ?
Miss Lesser. No, I do not.
Mr. Arens. Are you now a Communist ?
Miss Lesser. I answer as before. If you want me to repeat the
statement, I will.
Mr. Arens. I just want to be sure that the record is clear on whether
or not you have invoked the fifth amendment on that question.
Miss Lesser. I will reconsider that. I am not now a Communist.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a Communist ?
Miss Lesser. Will you define that ? Do you mean that as a matter
of philosophical belief or as a member of an actual Communist
Party?
Mr. Arens. You tell what is in your mind, if you want to tell us.
Miss Lesser. You tell us what is in your mind. You are the ques-
tioner.
Mr. Arens Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party ?
Miss Lesser. No, I have never.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been under Communist discipline?
Miss Lesser. What do you mean by that ?
Mr. Arens. Under the control and responsible to the will of the
Communist Party.
Miss Lesser. No.
Mr. Akens. Do you know a lady by the name of Barbara Hartle?

Miss Lesser. Certainly I do.
Mr. Arens. Do you remember a conversation you had with her some
time ago, in which you talked about the Conmiunist Party ?
Miss Lesser. Xow let me explain something to you. I was an attor-
ney in a case involving Barbara Ilartle. I never met her before I met
her up in jail, and I was an attorney at the time called in to represent
her. xVnd any conversations I had with her were conversations con-
cerning representation of her and other codefendants in a case. And
I have had no personal conversations with that woman whatsoever.
And I would request at this time that you have repeated in the record
the question you asked her, the answer she made, and you will see how
equivocal it is.
Mr. Arens. Tell us have you had any conversations with Barbara
Hartle
Miss Lesser. I have had many conversations.
Mr. Arexs. Just a moment, please, ma'am. Have you had any con-
versations with Barbara Plartle other than those conversations which
were in the capacity of attorney and client ?
Miss Lesser. They were not, except that I may say this: That
the
Mr. Arens. Let's get the record clear. You are a lawyer and you
know what it means to clear the record. Tell us have you had any
conversation with Barbara Hartle other than the conversations as
attorney and client ?
Miss Lesser. Now I am going to explain that answer, now, and you
cannot stop me. I was attorney for several people besides Barbara
Hartle at the same time. And I want to make that clear, and that I
have a duty as an attorney and an attorney-client privileged com-
— —
munications, as you know them you are all attorneys here and that
I can only go so far in answering this. And I will say that I have
had no conversations with Barbara Hartle except as a result of repre-
senting her or other codefendants of hers.
Mr. Arens. Let's be sure of something here.
]Mr. Scherer. Witness, what would your representation of Barbara
Hartle, if there was such representation, have to do with the statement
by you that you had been subjected to Communist discipline?
Miss Lesser. I never made such a statement. I will deny it equivo-
cally [sic].
Mr. Arens. Did you ever live in Chicago ?
Miss Lesser. Yes, I lived in Chicago.
Mr. Arens. When did you live in Chicago ?
Mr. Arens. Maybe this will help you Were you educational direc-
:
tor of Branch 16 of the Communist Party in Chicago in 1942 and 1943?

Miss Lesser. No.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever attended meetings of the Communist
Party in Chicago ?
Miss Lesser. The Lojâlty Board made the determination that I did
not. You know that.
Mr. Arens. Were you ever expelled from the Communist Party?
Miss Lesser. I never belonged to the Communist Party so I could
never have been expelled from it.
Mr. Arens. Did you ever live in Toledo, Ohio.
Miss Lesser. Yes, I have lived in Toledo, Ohio.
Mr. Arens. While you were in Toledo, Ohio, in the early 40's, were
you an active member of the Communist Party in that city ?
Miss Lesser. No, I was not.
Mr. Arens. Did you ever attend Communist Party meetings in
Toledo, Ohio?
Miss Lesser. What is a Communist Party meeting in vour defini-
tion?
Mr, Arens. You know what a Communist Party meeting is.
Miss Lesser. No, I don't.
Mr. Arens. You told about these degrees you have.
Miss Lesser. I have told all about the degrees. I have also told
you I am an attorney and I have been in plenty of things and hearings
and court actions where people like Barbara Hartle have defined Com-
munist Party meetings.
Mr. Arens. The Supreme Court of the United States has said what
the Communist Party is. It is a conspiratorial apparatus designed to
overthrow 'this Government by force and violence.
ISIiss Lesser. I ask that you define to me what a Communist Party
meeting is.
Mr. Arens. I just did. I alluded to a decision of the Supreme
Court of the United States.
Miss Lesser. Go ahead, I am sorry.
Mr. Arens. I would like to display to you a photostatic copy of an
article in the Communist Daily Worker, January 1953 "150 Women
:
Sign a Plea for Amnesty for 11."

These are the 11 Communist traitors in New York City who were
convicted under the Smith Act for conspiring to overthrow the Gov-
ernment of the United States by force and violence. Among these
150 women who are interceding on behalf of these traitors is, accord-
ing to this article, Sarah H. Lesser. Kindly look at this document
and see if you are accurately described in that enterprise.
Miss Lesser. Yes, I signed that. I am proud of it. I feel that I
am also in the category with Mrs. Eleanor Eoosevelt in feeling that
the Smith Act should be repealed.
Mr. Arens. Are you connected with the Washington State Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born?
Miss Lesser. Only in an attorney-client relationship.
Mr. Arens. Do you represent them professionally ?
—
Miss Lesser. When and where ^^Yill you please be more specific?
Mr. Arens. You would know if jôu represent them.
Miss Lesser. I have. Yes.
Mr. Arens. And do you represent the committee or do you represent
aliens who are up for deportation for whom the committee has inter-
ceded?
)

Miss Lesser. I don't understand that question. Will you please
simplify it ?
Mr. Arens. I am really surprised.

Miss Lesser. You are i
Mr. Arens. Do you represent the committee in its litigation, or do
you represent aliens in their litigation with the Government ?
Mr. Arens. And are you paid by the Washington State Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born? That is very clear.
Miss Lesser. That is not a clear question. That is 3 questions in 1.
Mr. Sykes. It is three questions.
Mr. Doyle. Try, Witness. It would seem to me it is not at all con-
fusing. Try. It is rather a simple question for a trained lawyer
like you.
Miss Lesser. No, it isn't. There are too many questions involved,
Miss Lesser. I have represented many aliens, and I have repre-
sented the Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. Arens. What is the nature of the representation of the Wash-
ington Committee for Protection of Foreign Born? That is all I am
trying to ask.
Miss Lesser. Mere legal representation.
Mr. Arens. In what kind of proceedings?
Miss Lesser. Judicial proceedings.
Mr. Arens. Before what agencies ?
Miss Lesser. The Immigration Service.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Abner Green ?
Miss Lesser. Yes, I have met him.
Mr. Arens. Do you and Abner collaborate on certain matters?
Miss Lesser. No, he is not an attorney.
Mr. Arens. I know he is not an attorney. Did you and Abner
both participate in a dinner meeting in Washington Hall in 1954?
Do you recall?
Mr. Arens. According to the account we have of the meeting, Abner
Green talked there and Sarali Lesser talked there.
Miss Lesser. Well, it would help me recollect if you would identify
what you are reading from.
Mr. Arens. It is an account of the meeting. We have sources of
information that give us that account.
Miss Lesser. I know that.
Mr. Arens. Of certain meetings. An account of a meeting held in
Washington Hall in 1954 it is an account of the meeting and it depicts
;
you as one of the principal orators there.

Do you recall that it was sponsored by the Washington State Com-
mittee for the Protection of Foreign Born ? And Abner Green, a hard-
core international Communist agent, was a guest of honor?
)
Miss Lessee. What is the question, please ?

Mr. Arens. Do you recall addressing the gjathering and orating at
that time ?
Miss Lesser. What is the date on that?
Mr. Arens. March 6, 1954.
Miss Lesser. I don't particularly recall that date. I do know that
—
when I have that that was approximately the date when I went to
San Francisco and won in the circuit court of appeals in a case clari-
fying the ruling in the Walter-McCarran Act as to what entry meant,
and won the Alcantra case. And when I returned I did make it was—
not oratory, was a report of what occurred down
it there.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Roderich Holmgren, H-o-l-iu-g-r-e-n ?
Miss Lesser. Yes, I do.

Mr. Arens. And his wife?
Miss Lesser. Yes, I do.
Mr. Arens. Did you live with them in Chicago for a little while?
Miss Lesser. I did. They were very good friends of mine and when
I got out of the Arni}^ and had no place to stay and could find no
place to stay, I stayed with them for a short while until I found a place
to live, yes.
Mr. Arens. Did you know they were members of the Communist
conspiracy ?
Miss Lesser. On legal advice, I am not answering that question be-
cause it is a leading question.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer that question.
Miss Lesser. Are you stating that these two people were members
of the Communist Party, and that I knew that fact ?
Mr. Arens. I am asking you, yes.
Miss Lesser. That isn't what you said before. No.
Mr. Arens. You did not know they were Communists?
Miss Lesser. I did not know they were members of the Communist
Party. No.
Mr. ScuERER. Wait a minute.
Miss Lesser. I am not stating that they are members, either. Be-
cause I do not know that fact.
Mr. ScHERER. Do you know whether they are Communists? Did
you know whether they were Communists?
Miss Lesser. Do you mean members of the Communist Party ?
Mr. ScHEUER. I didn't say that.
Miss Lesser. No, I have no knowledge in the short time I stayed
with them. No, I didn't have no such knowledge.
Mr. Scherer. Didn't you attend Communist Party meetings with
them ?
Miss Lesser. No. I did not.
Mr. Scherer. You are sure?
Miss Lesser. Yes.
) )
Mr. Akens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will con-

<;lude the staff interrogation of this witness.
Mr. DorLE. Mr. Scherer, any other questions?
Mr. Scherer. Yes. You were one of counsel, were you not, who filed
this suit in Federal court yesterday on behalf of Caughlan, Kinney,
Hatten, Corr, and Paulson against this subcommittee?
Miss Lesser. I was not one of original counsel, no.
Mr, Scherer. What do you mean, not of original counsel ?
Miss Lesser. I was added later.
JMr. Scherer. Then you were one of comisel ?
Miss Lesser. In court this morning, yes.
Mr. Scherer. Now do you know that all of those people, with
perhaps the exception of John W. Caughlan, are members of the Com-
munist Party ?
Miss Lesser. I would have no way of Imowing that, sir.

Mr. Scherer. You have never been in a Communist Party meeting
with any one of the four ?
Miss Lesser. No, sir.
Mr. Scherer. All right. That is all.
Mr. Doyle. The witness is excused. And, Counsel, thank you very
much.
Mr. Doyle. The committee will be in recess for 5 minutes.
(Whereupon a short recess was taken. Committee membei-s pres-
ent Representatives Doyle and Scherer.
:

Committee members present: Representatives Doyle and Scherer.)
Mr. Doyle. The committee M'ill please reconvene. And may the
record please show that a legal quorum is present of the subcommittee.
Congressman Scherer, of Ohio, and Congressman Doyle, of Los
Angeles, Calif, are both present, therefore, a legal quorum of the sub-
committee of three is here and we will proceed.
For the benefit of counsel and witnesses, I am pleased to say that
we are making good progress, and unless I make an announcement to
the contrary, then, the committee will, when we adjourn this afternoon,
stand in recess until 9 a. m. tomorrow morning.
And may I thank the people who are guests in the hearing room,
because you are wonderfully quiet and cooperative, and the committee
appreciates it very much. May I say just while we are waiting for the
witness that you are the most cooperative group that we have met on
the Pacific coast. That goes for the witnesses and lawyers, also. We
appreciate it very much.
Your first witness, Mr. Arens.
Mr. Scherer. Mr, Chairman, before we proceed I move that the
testimony of the last witness, Sarah Lesser, be referred to the Depart-
ment of Justice to determine whether or not perjury has been com-
mitted before this committee.
Mr. Doyle. All those in favor say "aye."
Mr. Scherer. "Aye."
Mr. Doyle. "Aye."
It is so ordered that the testimony of Miss Lesser, the last witness
before the subcommittee, will be referred to the Department of Justice
by the committee.
Mr, Arens. Raymond Glover, kindly come forward.

Mr. Doyle. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Glover. I do.
Mr. Do^-LE. Thank you. Will you take the chair. Please be seated.
TESTIMONY OF RAY (EAYMOND) GLOVEE, ACCOMPANIED BY

COUNSEL, JAY G. SYKES
Mr. Akens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occu-

pation.
Mr. Glover. My name is Ray Glover. I live in Enumclaw, Wash.
Mr, Arens. And kindly complete the answer.
Mr. Glover. I am an independent logoer,
Mr. Arens. I am having difficulty hearing you. Would you say
that again, please ?
Mr. Glover. I am an independent logger,
Mr. Arens, An independent logger ?
Mr, Glover, That is right.
Mr. Arens, You are appearing today, Mr. Glover, in response to a
Mr. Glover. I am.
Mr. GLO^^•^R. I am.
Mr. Stkes. J ay Sykes,
Mr. Arens. Mr, Glover, this morning Barbara Hartle took an oath
and testified that while she was a member of the Communist Party
she knew you as a Communist,
We want to give you an opportunity to deny that now while you
are under oath if you would care to do so.
Was Mrs, Hartle lying or was she telling the truth when she said
she knew you as a Communist ?
(The witness confers with his counsel,)
Mr, Glovek. I decline to answer that question and all further ques-
tions directed to me on the grounds that the scope and purpose of
these hearings as stated by the committee is beyond the scope of the
mandate of this committee, and violates, nu.mber one, the first amend-
ment of the Constitution and two, article I, section 8 of the Consti-
;
tution,
Mr, Scherek. Mr. Chairman, I ask you direct the witness to answer
the question.
Mr. DoYT.E. Witness, I direct that you answer the question, please.
Mr. Glover. I decline to answer
INfr, Glo\t-:r, I decline to answer on the grounds previously stated,
Mr, Sctierer, Mr. Chairman, may I inquire?
Witness, do I imderstand that you are not Invoking the fifth amend-
ment in refusing to answering the question of Counsel ?
Mr, Glover. Yes, that is right. I am not invoking it.

Mr. ScHERER. You understand that when the chairman directs you
to answer the question, it is because we do not accept your answer and
feel that if you do not answer the question, then you are subjecting
yourself to possible contempt proceedings? Do you understand thatl
Mr. ScHERER. Go ahead, Counsel.
Mr. Glover. Yes I believe so.
;
Mr. Arens. Now, we display to you, Mr. Glover, two documents.

The first is a document of the Northwest Committee for Protection of
the Foreign Born, in which your name appears. The second is a call to
the Northwest Conference to Fight Deportation, under the auspices
of the Northwest Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, in which
your name appears as sponsor, Ray Glover, secretary, International
Woodworkers of America.
(See exhibits Nos. 617 and 618, appendix, pp. 8205-8209.)
Kindly look at these two documents and tell this committee whether
or not you are accurately described.
Mr. Gloa^r. I decline to answer on the grounds previously given.
Mr. Arens. What was your connection with an IWA local?
Mr. Glover. I decline to answer on the grounds previously given.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, the witness be
Mr. Doyle. I direct you, Witness, to answer that question.
Mr. Glo\^r. I respectfully decline to answer on the grounds pre-
viously given.
Mr. Scherer. Now, so that the record is clear, do I understand, Wit-
ness, you are not invoking the fifth amendment as a basis for your
declination to answer ? Am I right ?
Mr. Glover. You are right.
Mr. Arens. Now we want to lay before you a copy of the Daily
AVorker of June 1949. "Men of labor and civic leaders throughout
the Nation voice indignation." It is all about the indignation voiced
on the trial and conviction of 11 Communist traitors down in New
York City. Among those who are voicing their indignation, accord-
ing to this Communist publication, is Ray Glover, identified here as a
business agent of the Enumclaw IWA Local. Enumclaw, E-n-u-m-
c-l-a-w.
Kindly look at that document and see if you are one of those who
expressed your indignation. And if so, if you are accurately identified.
(See exhibit No. Gn2, appendix, p. 8226.)
Mr. Glover. My name appears there. But I refuse to answer the
question on the grounds previously stated.
Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the ques-
tion.
Mr. Doyle. Witness, I direct you to answer that last question.
Mr. Glo\t^.r. I respectfully repeat that I refuse to answer on the
grounds previously stated.
Mr. Arens. No more questions of this witness, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. D0Y1.E. Mr. Scherer, any questions?
))
Mr. ScHERER. Was your first question, Counsel, with reference to

his present membership in the Communist Party ?
Mr. Arens. I do not remember.
Mr. Scherer. Witness, I will ask it: Are you presently a member
Communist Party ?
of tlie
Mr. Glover. No.
Mr. Scherer. Were you a member of the Communist Party last
year?
Mr. Gloatir. I decline to answer that question on the grounds previ-
ously stated.
Mr. Scherer. And you are not invoking the fifth amendment in de-
clining to answer that question as to whether you were a member of
the Communist Party last year ? Is my assumption correct. Witness ?
Mr. Glover. Yes.
Mr. Scherer. Were you a member of the Communist Party yester-
day?
Mr. Glover. I refuse to answer, decline to answer, on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the ques-
tion.
Mr. Doyle. I direct the witness to answer the question.
Mr. Glover. I must still repeat that I decline to answer on the basis
and grounds previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Are you under Communist Party discipline this min-
ute ?

Mr. Glover. Of course not.
Mr. Arens. Were you under Communist Party discipline after you
were subpenaed to appear before the Committee on Un-American
Activities in this hearing ?
Mr. Glover. Of course not.
Mr. Arens. Were you under Communist Party discipline a month
ago?
Mr. GL0^^:R. What do you mean ?
Mr. Arens. If you can deny the question twice you ought to know
what I mean. Were you under Communist Party discipline 6 months
ago?
Mr. Glover. I am under nobody's discipline but my own.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been under Communist Party discipline f
Mr. Glover. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party i
Mr. Glover. I must decline on the basis of the gi-ounds previously
stated.
Mr. Arens. What distinction do you make between being a member
Communist Party and being under Communist Party discipline ?
of the
—
Mr. Glover. I am not a lawyer, I don't make any distinction.
Mr. Akens. I respectfully suggest that will conclude the staff inter-
rogation of this witness.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Scherer ?
Mr. ScHEKEK. I have no further questions.
Mr. DoTLE. I wish to call the witness' and counsel's attention to this
fact:Mr. Scherer did that which he often does, and we do often
make sure that the witness, if he does not plead the fifth amendment
as part of his answers, understands he is not doing so and that it was
the reason for jSIr. Scherer asking you repeatedly, whether or not you
included the fifth amendment as part of j'our answer. Now, as I
understand the record, in answer to no question have you included the
fifth amendment. You understand that, do you. Witness?
Mr. Glo\ter. Yes.
Mr. DoTLE. That was your intention, to never raise that as a reason
for not answering ? Is that correct ?
Mr. Glover. That is correct.
Mr. Doyle. I beg pardon ?
Mr. Glover. That is correct.
JMr. Doyle. All right.
The witness is excused. And so is counsel. Thank you.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Robert Cummings, please come forward.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Cummings, please raise your right hand. Do you
solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and noth-
Mr. Cummings. I do.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you. Will you occupy the witness chair.
TESTIMONY OF ROBEET CUMMINGS, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,

JAY G. SYKES
occupation.
Mr. Cummings. Mr. Chairman, could I ask that no pictures be
taken.
Mr. Doyle. Very well. Of course it will be so ordered.
Mr. Cummings. Pardon me, would you state the question again?
Mr. Arens. Yes, would you please identify yourself by name, resi-
dence and occupation ?
Îr. Cummings. My name is Robert Cummings.
Mr. Arens. Would you keep your voice up. We are having some
noise outside, which is distracting me.
Mr. Cummings. ]My name is Robert Cummings. I live in Seattle
and as to the third part of your question, I will refuse to answer that
on the grounds that the question and this particular session of the
committee are exceeding their scope and jurisdiction and therefore are
in violation of tlie fii-st amendment of the Constitution.
And under protection of the first amendment, I refuse to answer.
And under the fnrther protection of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. Do you feel that to tell us the nature of your occupa-
tion might lead to a criminal prosecution of you ?
)
Mr. CuMMiNGS. I am informed that legally there is a possibility

of any answer to that question being used against me.
Mr. CuMMiNGS. Either the answer or in waiving the right as to
future questions.
Mr. ScHERER. All right.
Mr. Arens. Where are you employed ?
Mr. CuMMiNGS. Where?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. CuMMiNGS. Seattle.
Mr. Arens. What
type of work?
Mr. CuMMiNGS. I refuse to answer on the same grounds as pre-
viously.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that the witness be ordered and
directed to answer that question.
Mr. Doyle. The witness is instructed and ordered to answer that,
question.
Mr. CuMMiNGS. Same answer, same reason.
Mr. Scherer. Again we understand, witness, that you are not in-
voking the fifth amendment as a basis for your refusal to answer t.h»
question. Is that correct?
Mr. CuMMiNGS. I am afraid you misunderstand.
Mr. Scherer. Are you invoking it on this question?
Mr. CuMMiNGS. I did invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Witness, Mrs. Barbara Hartle this morning
took an oath to tell the truth. If she didn't tell the truth, she could
be prosecuted for perjury. And she said while she was a member
of the Communist Party she knew you as a Communist. Was she
lying or was she telling the truth ?
While you are under oath you tell us about it.
Mr. CuMMiNGS. It is my understanding that from the tenor of your
question there seems to be some sort of a challenge. I would like to
include in my answer the observation that
Mr. Arens. Just stand up and say "No, she lied about me, I am
not a Communist. I am not a member of a conspiratorial apparatus.
I am a patriotic American." Do that while you are under oath and
then we will get on. Was she lying or was she telling the truth?
Mr. CuMMiNGS. What are you asking?
Mr. Arens. Asking you whetlier or not Barbara Hartle lied or if
she told the truth when she took an oath before the committee this
morning and said she knew you as a Communist. You, Robert Cum-
minfijs.
Air. CuMMiNGS. In view of the fact that even though the witness you
are speaking of may have been under oath, her testimony was not
subject to cross-examination and, as such, has no legal status further
than hearsay testimony.
Mr. Scherer. What ?
Mr. CuMMTNGS. Other than that^

Mr. Scherer. That is an entirely
Mr. CuMMiNGS. Other than that —were I to answer, and were there
reason for this witness or other witnesses to my observation to perjure
« -
COMxMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION

6997
themselves, there seems to never
be anvthino- done aoout
^^"^^^t, cione ahnnf if î
never prosecuted it. They are
point m a.
^^n^sSTl^^^';î:::i^tlS^^Î
to answer the '''''''
question on the Jl-oundspreîSy '
stated"*"'^'
""'"""^ *" '^"'""- "^^''^ -"^

groundânS^s' ^'^'^ ^''^t^d the
Mr. Arens. These exhibits we
are soino-
ra: f
to di^^nlnv f^
t-'
oTn^^^r ^£:^^:^jik pi
iÎisfeTa^trofth^spror^"™- '" "''"^'^ ^°''--' ûmmings agai'^
acMy dtriW. '°'"""™'^ "'" '«" "^ "'^^"-^ - ™' yo" were
(See exhibit Nos 617 and 618,
appendix, pp. 8205-8209 )
(The witness confers with his counsel '
Mr. Arens. Just tell us are those bona )

fide documents.
'-'"'^'"/«Sl I Jinre no means of Imowing whether
fi.il
fide document^ I am not too sure exactly
'i' thev are bom,
name there. What was the question now what
« thev are
aie. lier^^
1 see my ™y
™''" •'"'"™'*'^ '^'''''^' ^''^ ^"^ ^'^^'^^^^^ with
thaf or^niâtio^n ?
Mr. CujoiiNGS. On this one it doesn't say anythino- about the nr
bl^ked'^rt"r'didn'?t' ee t^- •
^^^ ^'"^ ^''^ ^P™-'' ™^ ^^1^"^
^'^^^^^^ ^ '^1^ sure now that you
?F'
co|î?t™cspStoT:fX:y,fLr-'-^ »* "^^ ^-^•^-^^
wh'^r-eyl.ranretper-^'^''""'
^°" '""'^ =" ">« ""'^ <— ^'
„, =fi'ii ,t . y°" ''•''>' "»"='»• I wonder you would hein us

if
."" It is an article from tL
Daily WorLr
"Men J"? ""^"T'^'':
indi"na«on'' ""'' """ '''"^^'^ throughout the Natin ™iê
ce^linK.1^ S\Sm, 'Îs^ ImX^^'ilf 'pt^W "-

F^t^nt'clS wi:;S^'„SiT"'^ °* "^^ ^^° International
85333— 57— pt. 1-
:

He was quoted here as sayinj^
This is turning American jurisprudence into American judasprudence.
Kindly look at that document that is beins displayed to you now,
and see if you recall joininoj that enterprise and if you are accurately
quoted.
Mr. CuMMiNGS. I am not sure that that is an exact quote. But I
think it is quite likely that it is somethino; like that, yes.
Mr. Arens. Thanlc you, sir.
Who solicited you to be a sponsor of the Northwest Committee for
Protection of the Foreign Born ?
Mr. CuMMiNGS. Oh, that was so lon^ ago I don't remember who
solicited me.
Mr. Arens. Can you tell us the name of the officers ?
Mr. CuMMiNGS. Well, I might possibly read the list that you just
gave me. Other than that
Mr. Arens. Do you have an independent recollection ? It is useless
to sit and read a list that would be supplied to you.
Mr. CuMMiNGS. What date was this you are talking about?
Mr. Arens. Do you know Marion Kinney?
Mr. Arens. She is listed here as Chairman of the Northwest Com-
mittee for Protection of the Foreign Born.
Do you know her ?
Mr. CuMMiNGS. I know Marion Kinney, yes.
Mr. CuMMiNGS. Yes.
Mr. Arens. How long have you known her ?
Mr. CuMMiNGs. A number of years. I couldn't say just exactly.
Mr. Arens. "WTiat has been the nature of your acquaintanceship with
her ?
Mr. CuMMiNGS. Through the American Committee for the Protec-
tion of Foreign Born ?
Mr. CuMMiNGS. As a worker or an officer in the American Commit-
tee for the Protection of Foreign Born, or the Washington Committee
for the Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. Arens. Did you kriow her as an officer of tlie Washington
Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, too?
Mr. CuMMiNGS. Yes, I did.
Mr. Arens. Did you know her in any other capacity ?
Mr. CuMMiNGS. No, I never did; not to my recollection.
Mr. Arens. Did you ever serve in the Communist Party with her?
Mr. CuMMiNGS. I am going to decline to answer that question on
the grounds that I previously stated in my previous declination.
Mr. iVRENS. Now I have liere a document T want to display to you.
It is the Communist Daily Worker of 1951 "438 at Washington State
:
peace parley." It is about a confeience held under the auspices of

: «

6999
the Wasliingtoii Peace Crusade. In the course of this article the fol-
lowing appears
More tlian SO Avorkers tôk part in a labor anrl
peace panel chaired hv
^
Secretary Robert Cummings of Seattle Fishermen's
Local 3-3
Do you recall
tliat confei-ence and do you recall
your chairing that
panel under the auspices of the Washington
Peace Crusade?
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 640,'^ see appendix,
8232-8233 )
(Ihe witness confers with his counsel and examinespp.
document.)
^^Mr. Arens. That was 1951. m
That is while the Korean war was
(The witness confers with his counsel and
examines document.)
Mr. Arens. Do you recall that, please,
Mr. Cummings?
Mr. CuxMMiNGS. In order to avoid waiver
of any rights on future
^'"'"^ '" '"^"'^ '" "^^'™^ '^''' ^^^^^^^«- on tL
g'uncir' '"' same
Mr. Arfns. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully
suggest that conciuaes
concludes
Mr. Doyle. Congressman Scherer, any
questions
Mr. Coherer. N"© questions.
"''
Mr Are>,s.
Ml. \vv'^^^'m!'T
Mr. Xorman"^'^^'^T^- Jo^^ ^î-e excused, Witness.
Haaland, H-a-a-1-a-n-d
(iSo response.)
Mr. Arens. Norman Haaland. Is he here, please ?
Mr Haaland. I am here, but I am without counsel and I would
Mr. Ma aland. That is right.

Mr. DoTLE. You will be here with
counsel.
'^^^^^ZZ^^^^
Mr. I ODD. Yes, I do.
'- *™">' ^'^ -=* truth,
TESTIMONY OF VICTOE TODD, ACCOMPANIED

BY
FEANK H. POZZI and BEKKELEY LENT COUNSEL
Mr. Arens. Ishethathard of liPirino-? t-pt •
he" ™?
clo.. to
t,.i. microphone '"^ ™"^ "^^ "'^'
wîfdl'teTll to
Ml. Are>,s. Then I will be as brief as possible.

coun-
Mr Doyle. Counsel, may the record show that if the witness'
sel, either of them or both of them,
have any indication from the wit-
does not understand the question, will you pleuse make

ness that he
understand
sure that the question is repeated until he does
'.
Mr. Pozzi. Thank you. . .
Mr Arens. Now, Counsel, may I have your attention a minute, i

will lead the witness on the preliminaries to avoid unnecessary con-
versation.
You are Victor Todd?
Mr. Todd. Yes, sir. ,
Mr Arens. m
.
And you are appearing today response to a subpena

Un-American
which was served upon you by the House Committee on
Activities ?
Mr. Todd. Yes, that is correct.
Mr. Arens. And you are represented by counsel
i
Mr. Todd. Yes, I am. .... ^
Mr Arens. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourselves.

Oreg.
Mr. PozzL F.H. Pozzi and B.Lent, Portland,
that you
Mr Arens. Now our investigations, Mr. Todd, disclose
identified with the Committee for Protection of Oregon s For-
are
eign Born. Is that correct?
'(The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Pozzi. Can you hear him? ^- v j upon
v.«r>
based
Mr Todd I respectfully decline to answer that question
accorded to me by the 1st, 4tli,
the rights, privileges, and immunities
and 10th amendments to the Constitution of the United
5th, 9th,
States
" that you were a
-^RENs Our investigation further discloses
'
Mr and that mthe course ot

leader of the Communist Party of Oregon,
your leadership of
Mr. ScHERER. He can't see your lips. i 4. -,
that you were a leader ot

Mr Arens. Our investigation disclosescorrect
that
the Communist Party of Oregon. Is
?

to answer that question
Mr Todd. Again I respectfully decline immunities afforded to me by
based upon the rights, privileges, and
Constitution of ih^
the 1st, 4th, 5th, 9th, and 10th amendments
to the
for the purpose of further identification, lias

your
^Ûv ^n^^f' Just
hearing existed over a number of years, or is it a recent
impediment in
affliction ? .
Mr. Pozzi. Did you hear him i

Mr. Todd. Perhaps I could say 10 or more years.
At least 10 years.
Mr. Arens. Are you uoay a Communist ?

that question
Mr Todd Ao-ain I respectively decline to answer afforded to me by
privileges, and immunities
based upon the^'rights,
to the Constitution ot the
the 1st, 4th, 5th, 9th, and 10th amendments
will conclude
Mr. Arens.* Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that
Mr. Do^-LE. Any questions, Mr. Scherer?

Mr. ScHEKEK. Xo questions.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you, Witness. No questions. You are excused.
Thank you, CoimseL
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Valerie Lee Taylor.
]\[r. Doyle. Mrs. Taylor, do you solemnly swear that you will tell
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God '.
Mrs. Taylor. I do.

Mr. Doyle. Thank you. Will you take the witness chair ?
TESTIMONY OF MRS. VALEEIE (LEE) TAYLOR, ACCOMPANIED BY

COUNSEL, FRANK H. FOZZI AND BERKELEY LENT
Mr. Arexs. Kindly identify yourself, by name, residence, and
occupation.
]Mrs. Taylor. JMay I request no pictures, please.
Mr. Doyle. Very well. I am sure the press will cooperate as they
have alwaj's up here.
Mrs. Taylor. ]My name is Valerie Taylor and I live at North Bend,
Oreg. And I am a housewife.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Taylor, are you a Communist?
Mrs. TAYLor.. ]\[r. Chairman, I respectively decline to answer that
question based upon the rights, privileges and immunities afforded to
me by the 1st, 4th, 51h, 9th, and 10th amendments to the Constitution
of the United States.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Taylor, Mrs. Hartle, Barbara Hartle, this morn-
—
ing in her previous testimony. I beg your pardon. It was not in
this morning's testimony—in her previous testimony before the Com-
mittee on Un-American Activities, identified you as a Comnmnist.
Was she Ijang or was she telling the truth ?
Mrs. Taylor. I would like to decline that question on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Now we want to display to you two exhibits of the
Connnittee for Protection of Oregon's Foreign Born, in which you
are identified as a sponsor of that organization.
These exhibits are copies of letterheads and other documents issued
by that committee calling for the repeal of the Walter-McCarran hiw.
calling for people to act before it is too late on certain cases of depor-
tation of Communists. Kindly look at those documents and tell this
committee while you are under oath whether or not you are identified
in the capacity specified in those documents, with that organization.
(See exhibit Nos. 635 and 636, appendix, pp. 8229, 8230.)
Mrs. Taylor. I decline to answer the question on the previous
gromids stated.
Mr. Arens. Now we display to you a copy of the Communist Daily
People's World, of Friday, April 17, 19.53, with reference to the sup-
poit of a movement to get executive clemency for the Rosenbergs.
According to this article, this drive is coupled Avith the drive to repeal
the McCarran-Walter Act, and other activities in which Mrs. Valerie
Taylor is president.
7002 cOjvimunist political subversion
Kindly look at this article and tell this committee while you are
under oath whether you are accurately described in that enterprise.
(The witness confers with her counsel and examines docmnent.)
Mrs. Taylor. I decline to answer on the grounds as previously
stated.
Mr. Arens. Now we have still another document we would like to
display to you, an original document from the Washington Evening
Star, in which a number of people are protesting to the then Attorney
General, J. Howard McGrath, in 1951, about the jailing of certain
people, including Abner Green, executive secretary of the Committee
for Protection of Foreign Born. This document bears the signature
of a number of people, including that Mrs. Valerie Taylor, president,
ILWIJ, Federated Auxiliaries of Oregon.
Kindly look at that document and tell the committee whether or
not you participated in that enterprise and whether or not you are
accurately described.
Mrs. Taylor. I decline on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Now we lay before you still another document, the
Daily Worker of November 1953, in which an article appears entitled
"134 notables hit move to ban Marxist school." It is with reference
to the activities of the Government through the Subversive Activities
Control Board under the Internal Security Act to investigate the
Jefferson School of Social Science, a Communist controlled enterprise
in New York City.
This article asserts that a number of people protested this, including
Valerie Taylor. Mrs. Valerie Taylor. Kindly look at that document
and tell this committee whether or not you are appropriately and ac-
curately described there.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 642," see appendix, pp. 8234, 823.5.)
Mrs. Taylor. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Now we lay before you still another document from
the Communist Daily Worker of January 1953: "150 women sign
a plea for amnesty for the 11." Those are the 11 Communist traitors
in New York City. It includes, according to this article in the Daily
Worker, Valerie Lee Taylor. Kindly look at that docum.ent as it is
displayed to you and tell this committee while you are under oath
whether you are one of those persons who interceded on behalf of the
11 Communist traitors in New York Citv.
Mrs. Tayt.or. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Homer L. Owen ?
Mrs. Taylor. I decline to answer on the same grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Arens. Homer L. Owen back in 1954 took an oath before this
committee and testified that while he was a mem.ber of the Communist
cons])iracv he knew yo^^ ^s a Communist. Was he Iving or was he
telling the truth?
:
Mrs. Taylor. I decline to answer on the grounds as previously

stated.
Mr. Arens. Are vou this moment a member of the Communist
Party?
Mrs. Taylor. I decline to answer that question on the same grounds.
Mr. DoYT.E. Mr. Scherer.
Mr. Arens. The next witness, if you please
Mr. Doyle. May I just take a minute, Mrs. Taylor. I would like to
call attention in the record to the fact that on December 4th I wired
the Department of Justice in Washington and asked them to tell me
how many cases had been prosecuted, finally, under the Smith Act,
since 1953. And I just want to read a portion of this answer which
I received by wire.
Hon. Clyde Doyle,
Subcommittee, House JJn-American Activities Committee:
Following statistics on Internal Security prosecutions covering period 1953
to date, furnished pursuant to your telegraphic request
I want the record to show clearly, Mr. Reporter, the answer.

Advocating overthrow of United States Government in violation of Smith Act,
72 convictions, 10 acquittals, 10 cases pending involving 30 defendants. Seditious
conspiracy 27 convictions, one acquittal.
That is the element of concern that we have as a committee to inform
Congress about, the extent to which the Communists in this area, or
the Communist Party, are undertaking to defeat the very internal
security legislation that makes it possible to succeed in convicting these
persons who do advocate overthrow of the United States Government
in violation of the Internal Security Regulations.
Mrs. Taylor, I don't know whether you are a mother of any children
or not. I am not going to ask you. It is not pertinent to this examina-
tion, but may I just observe as a parent I do hope that there are no
children in your home, or any children under your control or influence
that are being raised to be future Communist conspirators and sub-
versive persons in our country.
I just hope that that is not occurring. I am not inferring anything.
I am just talking plainly to you as an American Congressman. As a
leader in your community.
The witness is excused and thank you, Counsel.
Mr. Pozzi. Thank you.
Mr. Arens. Mr, Vincent Howard, kindly come forward.
Mr. Scherer. Before we call the next witness, Mr. Chairman, has
Victor Todd left the room ?
Mr. Lent. He is still here.
Mr. Scherer. I would like to ask him some questions.
Mr. Pardon me.
Pozzi.
Mr. Scherer. That is all right. Go ahead with this next witness.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Vincent Howard.
Mr. Howard. I am here without counsel. I will have counsel in the
morning; at 9 o'clock for sure.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you. Then you will return without fail, Mr.
Howard, at 9 o'clock with counsel ?
Mr. Howard. Yes.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you. You are excused until 9 o'clock tomorrow
morning.
Mr. Arens. Clayton VanLydegraf.
Mr. VanLydegraf. Mr. Chairman, I do not see my counsel at
present.
Mr. Arens. Do you know his name ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. Here he is. He is here.
Mr. Arens. Please remain standing while the chairman administers
an oath to you.
Mr, Doyle. Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the
whole trutth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I do.
TESTIMONY OF CLAYTON VanLYDEGEAF, ACCOMPANIED BY

COUNSEL, JOHN M. RUPP
pation.
Mr. VanLydegraf. My name is Clayton VanLydegraf. I live in
Bellingham, Wash.
Mr. Arens. It is difficult to hear you. Would you say that again,
please, sir?
Mr. VanLydegraf. My name is Clayton VanLydegraf. I live in
Bellingham, Wash.
Mr. Arens. And we didn't get your occupation.
Mr. VanLydegraf. I did not give my occupation.
Mr. Arens. Give it, please.
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to give my occupation on the grounds
of my constitutional rights under the 1st amendment, 4th and 5th
amendments, the 9th and 10th amendments, and also my rights under
the enabling act in the constitution of the State of Washington.
Mr. Arens. Are you engaged in some criminal activity in your occu-
pation ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. How long have you been engaged in your present occu-
pation ?
Mr. Arens. Wliere are you engaged in your present occupation ?
Mr. Arens. In what State are you engaged in your present occupa-
tion?
ordered and directed to answer the question as to which State he is
engaged in his occupation.
Mr. Doyle. Yes. Of course. I direct you, Witness, to answer that
question. It is a reasonable question. We believe it a pertinent and
appropriate question to ask you.
Mr. VanLydegraf. On advice of counsel, I will answer this ques-
tion in the State of Washington.
:
Mr. Arens. Now, in what city are you engaged in your occupation?
Mr. VanLtdegraf. I decline to answer that on the same grounds.
be ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you, Witness, to answer the question.
Mr. Arens. How long have 3'ou been engaged in your present occu-
pation ?

ordered and directed to answer how long he was engaged in his present
occupation.
Mr. Doyle. I order and direct you to answer that last question.
Mr. Arens. What was your occupation immediately preceding your
present occupation?
Mr. Arens. And what was your occupation immediately preceding
that occupation?
Mr. Arens. Have you been engaged in unj occupation during your
adult life, vocation, livelihood, that you can tell us about without giv-
ing information that could be used against you in a criminal pro-
ceeding ?
be ordered and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Doyle. Yes, Witness, I order and direct you to answer that
question.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a lady by the name of Barbara Hartle ?
Mr. Arens. This lady, Barbara Hartle, this morning took an oath
and said she knew you as a Communist. In fact, she said she knew
you as a person who was in the Communist underground conspiratorial
apparatus. Was she lying or was she telling the truth?
Mr. Arens. We would like to display to you a document entitled:
"Coalition for Freedom and Democracy. A Report of the Washing-
ton State Committee of the Communist Party, November 1955."
(See exhibit No. 614, appendix, pp. 8186-8203.)
AVere you part of this coalition for freedom and democracy ?
Mr. VanLyt)egr.\f. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. You certainly wouldn't be ashamed of being in a coali-
tion for freedom and democracy, would you ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to
Mr. Arens. Unless it was a false freedom and false democracy under
the auspices of a conspiratorial apparatus?
Mr. Arens. Look at this document. Coalition for Freedom and
Democracy, a Report of the Washington State Committee of the
:
Communist Party for November 1955, in "svhich I see set forth here
the program of tlie Communist Party of this State, to subvert and un-
dermine the Smith Act, the Internal Security Act, the Immigration
and Nationality Act, the Communist Control Act, and other anti-
Communist legislation. Look at that document and first of all tell us
whether or not you have ever seen that document before.
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same gix)unds.
Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, sir, that you were head of the
Communist Party here when that document was prepared and circu-
lated in secret among the comrades.
Deny it while you are under oath, would you, please, if it isn't true ?
Mr. Arens. Kindlv tell this committee, while you are under oath,
sir, the relationship between the Oregon State Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born and the Communist conspiracy ?
Mr, Arens. Kindly tell this committee the relationship between
the Communist conspiratorial apparatus, and the Washington State
Mr. Arens. We want to display to you certain documents.
In this, the Communist Daily Worker of May 26, 1938, there is an
article "Oregon Delegates Hail Victory Over Martin." This was be-
:
fore the passage of the Smith Act.

There are photographs here of three people.' "Three from the
Coast." Delegates to the national Communist convention. Curiously
enough, there is a photograph that looks remarkably like your own.
Indeed, underneath this photograph appears the name Clayton
VanLydegraf.
The article proceeds as follows
Back on the Oregon Trail from the woods and the ships and tlie ranches of
the Pacific Northwest seven Communist Party delegates rolled in for the 10th
national convention yesterday.
They tell about a number of people who have come in from the trails
out here to this Communist Party convention, including one Clayton
VanLydegraf.
Look at that article and photograph and tell this committee if
you are accurately an-d truthfulh' described there as one of the com-
rades in this conspiratorial apparatus.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 643," see appendix, pp. 8236,
8237.)
Mr. Doyle. Was that in 1938, Mr. Arens?
Mr. Doyle. That is a long time to be in a conspiracj^
Mr. Arens. We have still another publication in which a certain
man informs on himself. An application filed with the secretary of
state of Wasliington to get the Communist Party candidates on the
ballot here, in July 9, 1946.
It bears the signature of a number of people. Curiously enough we
see the name Clayton Van Lydegraf, 1316 West Kenyon Street,
Seattle, Wash. And his occupation in 1946 was Communist Party
« ) «

70Q7
official,which I am sure as you know, in Communist Partv
lin^ô
means a Communist Party functionary. " ® '
Kindly look at that document and see if that refreshes

your recol-
lection Avith reference to your vocation in
1946.
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same
grounds, and
wifn particular reference to article 4 of the
Enabling Act Jstab-
lisiiing--creating--the provisions for the State of
Washington into
the Union, adopted bv Congress in 1889.
^ apologize to counsel. You are represented by
coimseUoclay?^'''^
Mr. VanLydeoraf. I am.
Mr. Arexs. Counsel, I am sorry I didn't recognize
& you
^ sooner.
Uould you kindly identify yourself
¥'^- ^•''^'-'s- Again, I am John Eupp, presi-
dpn?;?^''^^^?^''"^^^^'
dent of he Seattle Bar Association, appearing
bv appointment as I
think 1 stated at the outset of the hearing.
¥^\Scherer. Again I think we should say the committee
•
appre-
ciates Mr. Rupp and the other members of the Seattle
bar for servino-
m this capacity and doing it so well and so
ably
^
Mr. Doyle. We certainlv do.
îr Arexs. Where were you born, Mr. YanLydegraf
Mr. YanLydegraf. I was born in Salem, Oreg.
Air Arens. And a word about your education.
Mr. YaxLydegraf. I decline to answer that
question on the ^cmix.
same
grounds.
Mr. Arens I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman,
the witness be
ordered and directed to ansAver that question.
Mr. Doyle. Yes, I direct you, Witness, to answer
that question.
How could you possibly be prosecuted for telling us what your school-
ing has been "^
"""^ '^^^"'^ '^^^'^* yo"r professorial activities

wl^'' ^Vf^'^^'i^^f
VV e want ""l^
to ask about your own training.
(The witness confers with his counsel.T
Mr. YanLydegraf Upon advice of counsel, I
. attended grade school
m
m^^ isconsm and Oregon, Albany and in Eugene
m
Mr. Arens. And did you attend high school ?
Mr. YanLydegraf. Yes.
Mr. Arens. And where M-as that ?
Mr. YanLydegraf. In Eugene, Oreg.
Mr. Arens. And did you graduate from high
school?
Mr. YanLydegraf. I did.
Mr. Arens. And when was that?
Mr. YanLydegraf. I think the year was 1932.
Mr. Arens. And did you pursue your education
further ?
^'"^"'"^ ^"^ '''^''''' '^^' ^""'^^"^
groimdla^bS^rr'"^- ^ ^^ *^ '^''''
Mr. Arens. Did you attend college ?
Mr. YanLydegraf. I decline to answer that
question on the same
grounds as before.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever traveled outside the
United States ?

Mr. VanLtdegraf. I decline to answer that question on the same
grounds as before.
Mr. Arexs. "^^Tiat was your first job after you completed your
formal education ?
Mr. VanLtdegraf. I decline to answer that question on the same
ground as before.
Mr. Arens. I want you to help us on this. We only have high school
education thus far recorded. It is our information that you have been
engaged in a professorial work yourself as a teacher and instructor.
Generally that type of work is reserved for those who have had higher
education. Can you tell us about some of your professorial activities?
Mr. VanLtdegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds as be-
fore.
Mr. Arens. You were a teacher at a Communist leaders' school,
were you not, here in Seattle ?
fore.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Eugene Dennett ?
fore.
Mr. Arens. Eugene Dennett said he knew you as a functionary in
Seattle. That means a full-time member of the conspiracy in Seattle,
of the Communist Party. Was Dennett lying or was he telling the
truth ?

fore.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Elizabeth Boggs Cohen, who, herself was a former
functionary of the Communist Party in Seattle, identified you as a
member of the conspiratorial apparatus. Was she lying or was she
telling the truth ?
Mr. VanLtdegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Harold W. Sunoo ?
Mr. Arens. Mr. Sunoo told this committee while he was under
oath about your teaching Communist strategy and Communist tactics
of the underground apparatus here in Washington. Was Sunoo
telling the truth ?
Mr. Arens. Have you ever transmitted to a person, not authorized
to receive the same, security or restricted information ?
Mr. Arens. In other words, have you ever engaged in espionage ?

Mr. Arens. Have you ever taught sabotage ?
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been trained in the Lenin School in
Moscow ?
Mr. Aricns. Now, Mr. Karley Larsen, former member of the Com-
munist conspiratorial apparatus who broke away, identified you with
reference to some of your conspiratorial activities before the commit-
tee while he, Mr. Larsen, was under oath.
))
Was he lying or was he telling the truth ?

Mr. Arens. Are you this minute a member of the Communist con-
spiracy ?

Mr. Arens. What has been your connection with the Huks in the
Philippines 'i

Mr. Arens. It has been the information of this committee you were
one of the conspirators over there that led the Huks in the bloody up-
rising in which innocent blood was flowing like water. Can you deny
it while you are under oath ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I deny it on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. You say you deny it ?
Mr. Arens. Do you deny that you have been connected with the Huk
uprising in the Philippines?
Mr. Arens. Have you been taught the art of garroting?
Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, sir, and ask you while you are
under oath to affirm or deny the fact that you are an expert in the
Communist underground conspiratorial apparatus and in garroting?
Mr. Abens. Have you ever taken an oath of allegiance to support
and defend the flag of the United States of America ?
Mr. Arens. Have you ever
Mr. DoYT.E. Counsel, I am going to instruct this witness to answer
that question. I don't see how answering whether or not he took an
oath to support the Stars and Stripes can tend to incriminate him.
Mr. ScHERER. I don't see how it could.
Mr. D0Y1.E. I instruct you to answer that question. What are you
ashamed of? How in God's name could you possibly be incriminated
if you did take the oath ?
Mr. ScHERER. Because he obviously violated it.
Mr. VanLydegraf. Upon advice of counsel, having suggested that
I answer this question, and I will answer it "Yes."
Mr. Arens. And under what occasion did you take an oath to sup-
port and defend the flag of the United States ?
Mr. VanLyndegraf. Counsel suggests that I ask you to clarify that
question as to the content of the oath that you have in mind.
Mr. Arens. When did you ever talve a pledge to support the flag
of the United States or Constitution of the United States 5
Mr. VanLydegraf. That is one question or two.
Mr. Arens. Yes. If you have taken 2 oaths, tell us about 2 of
them. If you have taken 3, tell us about 3 of them.
Mr. VanLydegraf, I answered the question
Mr. Arens. You said Yes, you had.
Ml'. VanLydegraf. I answered the question, having in mind af-

firming the fact that I, upon at least one occasion took an oath to up-
hold tlie Constitution of the United States.
Mr. Arens. Where and wlien?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I took such oath as a part of my service in the
United States Army.
Mr. Arens. Where and when ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I took the oath in Seattle, Wash.
Mr, Arens. When ?
Mr, VanLydegraf. In 1942.
Mr. Arens. And were you inducted in the Armed Forces ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I was.
Mr. Arens. And in what branch did you serve ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. In the Air Force.
Mr. Arens. Where did you serve ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I served in various locations.
Mr. Scherer. Witness, were you a member of the Communist con-
spiracy when you were inducted into the Army and took that oath ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds as
before.
Mr. Arens. In what areas of the world did you serve, when you
were inducted in the Air Force ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same ground.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully' suggest that the
witness be ordered and directed to answer that question. He knows
he has to answer that question. If not he ought to be told.
Mr. Doyle. How in the world your service under the flag of the
United States could possibly incriminate you, I don't see. I instruct
you and order you to answer that question.
Mr. VanLydegraf. L^pon advice of counsel I will answer the ques-
tion. I served in Seattle, Wash. I served in San Antonio, Tex. I
served in Waco, Tex. I served in Arkansas. I served in Michigan.
—
^Miile stationed in Michigan I served in all but I served in the
State of New York, I served in the State of Ohio. I served in the
State of Minnesota. I served in the State of Wisconsin. I served in
the State of Florida. I served in the State of North Carolina. I
served in the State of South Carolina. I served in Washington,
D. C. I served in Delaware. I served in California. I served in
Arizona. I served in New Mexico. I served in Montana. I served
in Kansas. I served in Missouri. I served in Kentucky. I served in
Tennessee. I served in Alabama. I served in Mississippi. I served
in Louisiana. I served in other States as well.
There may have been 3 or 4 in which I did not serve during this
period.
Mr. Arens. And in what capacity ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I served as a private. I served as an aviation
cadet and I served as a law attendant.
Mr. Arens. And in what branch of the Air Force did you serve?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I served in the Air Transport Command.
Mr. Arens. And did you serve any place overseas ?
Mr. VanLtdegraf. I did.

Mr. Arens. And where did you serve overseas ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I served in Morocco. I served in Egypt. I
served in India. I served in China. And I served over Burma.
Mr. Arexs. Are those the only places you served?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I also served in Labrador, in Greenland, in Ice-
land, and in Scotland.
Mr. Arexs. Is there any other place else 3'ou served ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. That is all that I remember.
Mr. Arens. Did you ever serve in the Philippines ?
Mr. VANLYDEorvAF. As I said, that is all that I remember.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been in the Philippines ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer that question on the same
grounds as before.
Mr. Arexs. During- the course of your service in the United States
Army, were you under discipline of a conspiratorial apparatus con-
trolled by a foreign government ?
before.
Mr. Arens. During your service in the United States Army, did
you pass security or confidential information to any person not
authorized by law to receive tlie same ?
]\[r. VanL^-degraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds as
before.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Arens. I instruct this witness to answer. In view
of the fact that he took the pledge of allegiance to the flag of the
United States, according to his own testimony on at least two occasions,
I tliink it is a very pertinent question.
Mr. Arens. Did you receive an honorable discharge ?
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest this witness be
Mr. Doyle. Of course. I direct the witness to answer that question.
]Mr. VxVnLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same gi'ounds as
before.
Mr. Arens. What was the nature of your discharge ?
before.
Mr. Arens. Was your separation from the service voluntary or
involuntary ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer on tlie same grounds as
before.
Mr. Arens. When did you return to the United States from your
lastsojourn abroad with the Armed Forces of this Nation, whose flag
you are sworn to protect ?
Mr. \ânLydegraf. I decline to answer on the same grounds as
before.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest Mr. Chairman, that witness be
(Tlie witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. VanLydegraf. Upon advice of counsel, I will answer that I
returned in the spring of 1945.
Mr. Arens. And from whence did you return to the United States ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. From India.
Mr. Arens. And have you left continental United States since then ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline to answer that question on the same
grounds as before.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer that question.
Mr. VanLydegraf. I decline on the same grounds as before.
Mr. Arens. What is garroting? See if you can just help this
committee trying to protect this same flag you swore to uphold. What
is garroting?
Mr. Arens. You know what garroting is, don't you ?
before.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever parroted anybody ?
before.
Mr. Arens. Have you received any military training in the use of
firearms or in the use of deadly weapons other than the military
training which you received by the Government of the United States ?
before.
Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, sir, that you have so received
such training by the underground conspiratorial apparatus of the
Communist Party. Deny it while you are under oath if it isn't true.
before.
Mr. Arens. How many people have you killed in the course of
your career in the Philippines ?
before.
Mr, Arens. I put to you as a fact, sir, that you were trained in the
miderground school to garrot for the International Communist con-
spiracy. Now" deny that while you are under oath.
before.
Mr. Arens. Now, tell us in view of your background which we have
been covering, about some of your activities for the uplift of this
community. Let us start with the Oregon Committee for Protection
of Foreign Bom. Tell us some of your activities in that regard
to protect the foreign born.
'My. Arens. You certainly are not ashamed as one who has sworn
to defend this great Kepublic to state what you have done to protect
the helpless foreign born, would you ? Unless they happened to like-
wise be Communist conspirators?
before.
Mr. Arens. Now tell us what you have done in this community and
elsewhere to protect this Nation, this flag you are sworn to uphold, by
« «

7013
advocating proposed amendments to the Smith
Act. Can ^vou tell
us about that?
^''''^™'^'^'^* '^^''^"'" '"''"'"'^'^
before.
^ ^° ""'^ ^^'^ '^"'^ grounds as
''' "^'' ^'^ ^^"^' ^""' '^ ^^^^^^^ ^^^^ ^^^ ^^

yours atfoTminri'"
Mr. ScHERER. Not of his.
^^''^^' '''?'^'^
Mv' V^?T ^^ *^'^ Internal Security Act of this Nation,
'''''^''" ''"''''"'^
before.
^^'^ "^'^ *^'^ '^^^ ^^'^^^^^^ ^^
Have you changed your position with reference to
voÎ^'q^?"'"®
•
rade Stahii since Khrushchev told the world Com-
everyone thought he was? Have you
reference to Comrade Stalin ?
he wasn't quite the man
changed your pos
» j
'^'''^"'^
i^ tion S
^ ^"^ '''''''^^^ ^^ *^^^ '^'^^ g^'o^nds as
befor^.^'^'"'^™'''^''-
Mr. Arens. Who was riglit, Khrushchev or
Stalin '^
^'^^^'^™GRAF I see no legislative purpose in such

o/iT
and I continue to decline on the same grouncls a ^ê^^ôn,
question
as before.
for'som'etnX'f"^^^^^
'''''
' ^^'"' '' "''^^' ™^ ^^ ^^"^^ ^^^^
Mr. Arens. Certainly.
Mr. VanLtdegraf. And I am getting a little dry.
Mr. Doyle Under Public Law 601,
Witness, a legislative purpose
assigned to this committee is to
investigate the extent to which^the
Communist conspiracy comes from a foreign
our constitutional Government, or tries
to.
country and Tnmtrates
mmtiates ^
All'. Arens. What was the last question, Mr. Reporter
(1 iiea-ecord was read by the reporter as requested)
Mr. Arens What is your position with reference
to the atrocities
being committed against the innocent
people of Hungary
"^^b'li-y bv
oy tne
the
leaders of this conspiratorial apparatus
' '"^'" ^^ '^""^"^ ^^ ^^- --- g--d^ -

prevLiIlTgw'""
"""" '""'"' '""^ ^'""^^''^^ ^^^ ^^^
of't^Hungiia^sT P-^^^^-
''"
tms coimtiy by "J
thi^count'J^v'hv your fT?^"'-^""
activities
^^^^^ ^«^^« t« pS>tect the flag
m
connection with
cono-ressional in
of
Ip cffo si'^rn'"'- Committee

r^""^-
^'^^^ '''''^ ^^"- enterprfses on in
on Un-American Activities ?
t
Ml. v/x'f'^
^Mi. """?
VA^LYDEGR.lF. I Will refrain from commenting
occasion on the same grounds as "^ on the present
before.
have unrwlt.Pfl ^'^f^^V''^'^'^^'

^"^
T ^^^*^ '^^^ *^ ^^^^îs^ the rights you
^^^'^ ^« ^'^ ^^^^ ^^^îê yo^^ are under
oath Tell « if f ^'T' 'P'r^^-
Seo^ntn^^S^riSIJifir ^^^^^^ ^^'^^^^^^
'^
^^^
^^-^- '^^^
Mv' Yt^'-^^'û '''''
'^'^- ^ ^f ^^^ê «n the same grounds,
^""'^^'^'^^'^^ ^^'' ^^S that you were sworn to
hold^' up-
^^ ^"^^^'^^* o" the same grounds.

Mr Itp^rfT'''
^'^''\ff''^
cmae
clude"tW^ff^nf ^""^/:;^^''^ ^"- Chairman, that will con-
the stall interrogation of this
witness.
85333— 57— pt. 1 56
:
Mr. DoTLE. Mr. Scherer, anj' questions ?

Mr. Scherer. It is unbelievable.
Mr. Doyle. I have no questions. The witness is excused, Mr.
Arens.
Mr. Doyle. And thank you, Counsel. I want the record to show
Mr. VanLydegraf. Can I sign a voucher and so on ?
Mr. Doyle. Beg your pardon ?
Mr. VanLydegraf. Do I sign a voucher ?
Mr. Doyle. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Yes, and Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that if,
as and when this witness signs a voucher that that part of the voucher
bearing his signature be incorporated in the body of this record for
obvious reasons.
(Document marked "Exhibit No, 645a," see appendix, p. 8243.)
Mr. Doyle. May I have the record show this, please
Under date of April 2, 1956, I received a letter from Mr. J. Edgar
Hoover, United States Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of In-
vestigation, Washington, D. C.
Hon. Clyde Doyle,
House of Representatives,
Washington, D. C.
My Dear Congressman —
I read only part of it because it is quite a long one.
Tlie American people owe a great debt of gratitude to the work over the years
of congressional investigating committees. These committees, day after day,
secure information vitally needed in the consideration of new legislation. They
are indeed indispensable parts of the American legislative process.
Congressional investigating committees, moreover, time after time have brought
to the attention of the Nation conditions of fraud, dishonesty and subversion.
This function of awakening public opinion is of the greatest importance in our
—
democratic life a service not within the province of regularly constituted in-
vestigative agencies. Congressional investigating committees, by the very nature
of the broad powers vested in them, are enabled to search out the facts and
make them available to the citizeni-y.
End of quote.
(Pursuant to subsequent order of the chairman of the subcommittee,
a news clipping from the Seattle Times dealing with VanLyde-
graf 's endorsement of his veteran's bonus check to the Communist
Party and a news clipping from the Los Angeles Times (see pp. 7019
and 7050 of testimony) are included in the appendix.
(Documents marked "Exhibit Nos. 645b and 646," see appendix,
pp. 8244-8247.)
Mr. Doyle. I am pleased to state for the benefit of the witnesses
and counsel that the committee will not meet tomorrow morning until
10 a. m. instead of 9.
So the witnesses and counsel need not be here until 10 a. m. tomor-
row instead of 9. And there will be no session tonight.
The people under subpena here are directed to report back at 10
a. m. tomorrow instead of 9.
Mr. Lent. Mr. Chairman, in that connection, Mr. Scherer asked
after Witness Todd had been excused if he would wait a few minutes
for a question or two.
Mr. Scherer. I have changed my mind.
: ;
CO^^lMUXIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 7015
Mr. D0TI.E. Thanks very much, Counsel.

Mr. Lent, Thank you very much,
(Whereupon, at o 20 p, m. Thursday, the committee
: Avas recessed,
to reconvene at 10 a. m, Friday, December 14, 1956.)
Statement of the President oe the Seattle Bab Association to the Com-

mittee ON Un-Amekican Activities of the House of Representatives of the
United States, December 13, 1956
My name is John N. Rupp, and I appear here at this time in my capacity as
president of the Seattle Bar Association.
There will be a number of Seattle attorneys appearing at this hearing in the
capacity of counsel for certain of the witnesses, and I want the record to be
clear as to the circumstances under which they will appear. Briefly put, they will
be here because, as president of the Seattle Bar Association, I appointed them to
represent the persons for whom they will act as counsel. I appointed them be-
cause I was informed that these several witnesses were without counsel and had
no funds with which to employ counsel, and I was asked to appoint counsel for
them. These attorneys will, of course, serve without pay and as a public duty,
in conformity with the oath which each of them took when he became a member
of the bar.
Since I would not ask any of my colleagues to undertake a task without
undertaking a similar one myself, I shall appear later at this hearing repre-
senting at least one of the persons subpenaed. The others whom I have appointed
are Charles Horowitz, the first vice president of the Seattle Bar Association
:
Chester C. Adair and David O. Hamlin, two of the trustees of the Association
David J. Williams, chairman of the association's civil rights committee and ;
Arthur Barnett, a member of that committee. If additional counsel are ap-

pointed, that fact will be made known to the committee.
In connection with this representation, and with the api>earances of any
lawyers before the committee, I should like to have the record contain a state-
ment made over 2 years ago by the trustees of the association. It is published in
30 Washington Law Review 327-328, and it reads as follows :
'•representation of unpopular persons or causes
"Be resolved by the Board of Trustees of the Seattle Bar Association, on

it
this 11th daii of June. 1954, That certain of the fundamental principles underly-
ing the representation by lawyers of unpopular persons and causes should be
set forth at this time for the information and assistance of the public and the
bar and that, therefore, the follov.ing statement should be issued and made
public
"Throughout the course of history lawyers have been freqpently called upon
to repre.'ênt and defend persons and causes known to be unpopular. This has
been particularly true in criminal matters, but it has been and is also true
in other fields, including investigations and hearings conducted by the legislative
department of government.
"The right of an accused person, or of a person called as a witness in a legisla-
tive investigation, to have legal counsel carries with it the right of the lawyer to
represent and defend him in accordance with the ethical standards of the bar.
"Having undertaken any such representation, the lawyer has a duty to assert
for his client every remedy or defense authorized by the law of the land. The
duty of the lawyer is to be performed, however, only within the bounds of the
law, and his office does not permit, nor demand of him, for any client, any viola-
tion of the law nor any manner of fraud nor improper conduct.
"The public and the bar should recognize the duties and responsibilities of the
lawyer in such ca.ses and should keep in mind that such representation, when
performed in accordance with the applicable ethical standards, is lawful and
proper and that it does not impute to the lawyer his client's vievvs. cha raster,
deeds, or reputation."
There is an analogy to what we have done here. It is in the field of the
criminal law. There, when a person is charged with crime and arraigned before
the court, if he is without counsel and has no funds to enable him to employ
an attorney, the court will appoint an attorney for him to sei-ve without pay
(or, in our State courts, for a small fee paid by the State). The duty to accept
such appointments is a part of the obligation of every lawyer.
The proceedings before this committee are not, however, criminal proceedings,
and the committee has no power to appoint counsel for witnesses summoned to
appear before it. In the absence of that power, therefore, the Seattle Bar
Association has undertaken the task of supplying counsel for indigent witnesses
just as the courts, for centuries, have appointed counsel for indigent defendants.
The committee is, I think, also aware that there is a precedent for our action
here. When the committee was here 2^4 years ago, in June 1954, a similar
situation was presented. To refresh our recollection I refer to the following
pages of the piinted record of the committee's hearing at that time on its
Investigation of Communist Activities in the Pacific Northwest Area, pages
6336, 6337, 6379, 6380, 6516, 6517, and 6561-6564.
There the situation developed this way A witness named Henrickson com-
:
plained that he needed an attorney, that he did not have one and had no money
to employ one. The chairman said that he would excuse the witness for the day
and would ask the president of the Seattle Bar Association to obtain counsel
for the witness. He did so, and the next morning Mr. Michael K. Copass, who
was then president of the association and now is one of our superior court
judges, appeared with the witness and stated that he had undertaken the
representation himself.
Later on in the hearing Mr. Copass appointed Mr. Wayne C. Booth, who was
then the association's first vice president and later became its president, to
represent another indigent witness, and Mr. Booth did so.
Also, pursuant to an appointment made by Mr. Copass, Mr. Alfred .T. Schweppe,^
who was later that year elected president of the Washington State Bar Associa-
tion, appeared at the hearing representing the witness, John Caughlan.
All of these gentlemen served without compensation and in fulfillment of their
obligations as members of the bar. A similar situation exists in the case of
those who will appear before the committee at the present hearing.
I am proud to say that no one of those whom I have appointed hesitated for
a moment in accepting the appointment, even though it was made on short
notice and necessitated the cancellation of many appointments and a serious
disruption of the busy practice of each of these gentlemen. •
I think that their
conduct is in keeping with the very highest traditions of the bar, and I am happy
to inform the committee of these facts, so that the committee and the public will
understand them.
) :
FRIDAY, DECEMBER 14, 1956
U xiTED States House of Representatives,

Subcommittee of the
Committee on Un-American Activities,
Seattle^ Wash.
public hearing
A subcommittee of the Committee on Un-American Activities met,

pursuant to recess, at 10 05 a. m., in the county commissioners as-
:
sembly room, County-City Building, Seattle, Wash., Hon. Clyde

Doyle (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.
Committee members present Representatives Clyde Doyle of Cali-
:
fornia, and Gordon H. Scherer of Ohio.

Staff members present: Richard Arens, director; William A.
Wheeler and Donald T. Appell, investigators and Richard S. Weil,
;
staff member.
(Committee members present at the time of convening Representa-
:
tives Doyle and Scherer.

Mr. Doyle, Please may the committee come to order.
I want to cordially say again how very much the committee appreci-
ates the very definite cooperation of everyone in tin- hearing room
— —
yesterday we know we will have the same today the cooperation
with the large group here in the matter of keeping absolutely quiet
and making no demonstration of either approbation or disapproval.
And we appreciate very much also, the definite cooperation of the
legal counsel who have appeared with witnesses and have been so
observant of the committee's rules. We also appreciate the coopera-
tion of the witnesses.
May the record show that, again this morning. Congressman
Scherer, of Ohio, and Congressman Doyle, of California, subcommit-
tee chairman, are both present, of the subcommittee of three appointed
by the full committee chairman, Francis E. Walter, and, therefore, a
legal c[uorum of the subcommittee is present and qualified to proceed.
In this connection may I make this statement for the information
of those that do not know
The House of Representatives in the last session unanimously adopt-
ed a resolution which became the governing rule of all House of
Representatives investigative committees requiring at least two mem-
bers of an investigative committee be present witli a witness testifying
under oath. That is a standing rule now of all investigative com-
mittees of the House of Representatives. We think it is a great ad-
vancement in the congressional procedure.
7017
: : —
Now, if counsel and my distinguished colleague please, I thought it

appropriate, in view of much mention yesterday of Civil Action File
No. 4287, which was the case by John W. Caughlan, Marion Kinney,
Louise Hatten, Cecelia Corr and Clara Paulson, as members of the
Washington Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, against my-
self, Clyde Doyle, and Harold Velde and Gordon Scherer and Mr.
—
Wheeler as a John Doe who was served I thought it appropriate that
we might, Mr. Scherer, include at this point the press release or press
comment as to what the judge said because it appears to be a quote in
the Seattle Post-Intelligencer for Friday, December 14, 1956. It is
very brief. It is on page 8 thereof, and here is what the paper re-
leased as a quote
Judge Bowen ruled
this is the Federal judge, a very distinguished Federal judge.
"No court can limit the lawful actions of the legislative braufh of the United
States Government.
"There has been nothing shown to this court which leads the court to find
there is anything invalid in the indicated desire of the legislative committee in
question.
"The material sought (letters, documents and leaflets of the Washington Com-
mittee for Protection of the Foreign Born which Judge Bowen said were de-
signed to obtain revision or repeal of the Smith. Internal Security, and Immigra-
tion and Nationality Acts) is well and clearly and unmistakably confined to mat-
ters within the jurisdiction, objectives and normal work of the Congress of the
United States and of its congressional committees, here," he continued.
John Caughlan, attorney for the plaintiffs, asserted —here is an-
other quote
"Production of the material (before the House subcommittee) will immedi-
ately result in termination of the activities of the Washington Committee for
Protection of the Foreign Born.
"If Mrs. Kinney (Marion Kinuej', a plaintiff and executive secretary of the
WCPFB) declines to produce this material on the gr-ound the committee is ex-
ceeding the scope of the committee or Congress, then she immediately is subject
to the threat of criminal prosecution."
I thought, Mr. Scherer, it would be a])propriate to read this and get

this into the record at this point for the benefit of our colleagues in
Congress.
Mr. ScTiERER. That last part that you read, as I understand it. you
were quoting Caughlan.
Mr. Doyle. I was quoting the quote as repoi'ted by tliis distin-
guished newspaper, the Seattle Post-Intelligencer. And they quote
the attorney, John Caughlan, for the plaintiff as making these two
declarations in Federal court yesterday morning about 9 o'clock.
—
And I think, therefore, it might be interesting to us it certainly is
to me—to observe the difference of opinion between some of these
witnesses and the distinguished Federal judge where the question is
raised by witnesses that this committee is exceeding its jurisdiction.
There is one other point I want to make for the record. In this
copy of this complaint, which was served on Mr. Wheeler yester-
day, as to which Mrs. Kinney testified she signed a similar docu-
ment, there is an allegation there that you and I. Mr. Scherer, as I
recall it, are residents of Seattle, Wash. Now, of course, that is a
most untrue allegation.
Mr. ScTiERER. T don't think it says that.
Mr. Doyle. Yes, I think so. I remember reading it yesterday.
If I am not incorrect, there is an allegation here that you and I are

residents, which, of course, was known to be untrue, manifestly, be-
cause it is well known by paper publication and so forth that we are
only here 2 days in these hearings.
I think it is on page ?> or 4.
How much bad faith can you plead in a complaint in order to try
to get jurisdiction ?
Are you ready, Mr. Arens?
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. ScHERER. Before we proceed you will recall that the last wit-
ness yesterday was Clayton VanLydegraf. This morning there was
handed me an article from the Seattle Times of Friday, July 28, 1950.
The heading of the article is "Red Party Gets Communist's Bonus."
:
And then it shows a bonus check from the Washington State Veterans'
organization in the amount of $475, payable to Clayton VanLydegraf.
It is his bonus check from the treasurer of the State of Washington.
And it also shows the endorsement of that check by VanLydegraf to
the Communist Party of the State of Washington.
I think I should read at least part of that article. It says, and it
was written by Ed Guthman of the Seattle Times:
VanLydegraf is the No. 2 Communist leader in the State, second only to Henry
Huff, the party's State organizer.
VanLydegraf told a University of Washington faculty investigating committee
in 1948 that he probably v^'ould resign his Air Force commission in event of war
with Russia. His commission expired in 1948 and has not been renewed.
VanLydegraf told the committee he has been a Communist since 1933 and
State Communist secretary the past 3 years.
Mr. Chairman, I ask that the entire article from the Seattle Times
be made a part of the record at the conclusion of VanLydegraf 's testi-
mon3' yesterday.
Mr. Doyle. The order will be made.
(See exhibit 645b, appendix, p. 8244.)
Mr. ScHERER. Yes, the check was endorsed to the State Communist
Party Defense Committee, and the committee was organized to collect
funds for the defense of the 11 Communist leaders convicted in New
York for conspiring to teach the forceful overthrow of the United
States Government. And the article saj^s that in another paragraph.
That is what his bonus check went for,
Mr. DoTi.E. Anyrliing further, Mr. Scherer ?
Mr. ScHERER. No.
Mr. Arens. Louise Hatten, kindly come forward. H-a-t-t-e-n.
Mr. Doyle. Please raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth,
Mrs. Hatten. I do.
Mr. Doyle. Please take the witness chair.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. LOUISE HATTEN, ACCOMPANIED BY

COUNSEL, AETHUE G. BAENETT
Mrs. Hatten. Could I request that I not be televised and no pic-
tures taken ?
Mr. Barnett. Mv. Chairman, the witness asked that she not be
televised.
))

pation.
Mr. Doyle. The press will observe, please.
Mrs, Hatten. I am Louise Hatten, 1815 18th. I am a housewife.
Mr. Arens. You are appearing today, Mrs. Hatten, in response to
a subpena which was served upon you by the House Committee on
Mrs. Hatten. Yes, I am.
Mrs. Hatten. Yes.
Mr. Barnett. I identify myself as Arthur G. Barnett, attorney,
1304 Northern Life Tower, assigned by the Seattle Bar Committee on
Civil Rights to represent this witness.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Hatten, what was your maiden name, please?
Mrs. Hatten. Seifried.
Mr. Arens. Would you spell that ?
Mrs. Hatten. S-e-i-f-r-i-e-d.
Mr, Arens, Where were you born ?
Mrs. Hatten. Cheyenne, Wyo.
Mr. Arens. And give us a word, please, about your education.
Mrs. Hatten. I have a bachelor's degree from the University of

Washington, and master's degree from the University of Pennsyl-
vania.
Mr. Arens. What is your Pennsylvania master's degree in, please?
Mrs. Hatten. Social work.
Mr. Arens. Could you get a little closer to the microphone. Pull
your chair up a little bit. I have difficulty hearing you.
When did you receive your master's degree ?
Mrs. Hatten. 1948.
Mr. Arens. Now tell us, if you please, what was your first occupa-
tion after you received your master's degree ?
Mrs. Hatten. Social worker.
Mr. Arens. Where ?
Mrs. Hatten. My first job after I graduated was in Arlington, Va.,
with the Children's Home Society of Virginia.
Mr. Arens. How long were you employed there?
Mrs. PIatten. For 2 years.
Mr. Arens. x\nd then tell us what was your next employment and
where you were employed.
Mrs. Hatten. From there I went to a job in Seattle with the Wash-
ington Children's Home Society.
Mr. Arens. What year was that?
Mrs. Hatten, 1950.
Mr. Arens. And how long did you occupy that job ?
Mr. Barnett. The witness, Your Honor, is objecting to photog-
raphers still taking pictures after she has been sworn.
)
COIVIMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 7021
We ^Yould like the record to ^how this is in contempt of this com-

mittee and her rights.
A Photographer. Her request was TV only.
Mr. Barnett. No. Both.
Mr. Doyle. Where is any photographer engaged in taking pictures?
A Photographer. There is no picture being made here.
Mr. Barnett. At this time, Mr. Chairman, I made the same request
yesterday, and we both thanked the press. And this morning pictures
appeared in the Seattle Post-Intelligencer, and the record should show
that the Post-Intelligencer ignored it.
I don't Ivnow what can be done about it, but I would like that mild
reproof for the sake of accuracy.
Mr. Scherer. Do you claim the pictures that appeared in the papers
were taken while the wîtness was on the stand ?
Mr. Barnett. That is what we claim.
And, despite our request yesterday on Myrna Anderson, it is in the
front page of the Post-Intelligencer this morning.
Mr. Scherer. Were they taken before she was sworn ?
Mr. Barnett. I preceded the witness and made the request before
she came forward.
Mr. Doyle. Well, that may be. Counsel. But if that picture was
taken before she was sworn it was perfectly proper.
A Photographer. It was made before she was sworn.
]Mr. Doyle. It is a fact that you made the request before she was
sworn, and now here is the representative of that paper who says
to us audibly right here in your presence, and mine, that that picture
was taken before she was sworn.
Mr. Barnett. I am referring at this point to Myrna Anderson.
Mr. Doyle. That is what he is referring to.
So let's proceed, please.
Mr. Arens. The last question outstanding on this record is how long
were you employed in this children's home in Seattle.
Mrs. Hatten. Five years.
Mr. Arens. Beginning when and ending when, please?
Mrs. Hatten. Beginning 1950 ending 1955.
;
Mr. Arens. And then your next employment, please ?

Mrs. Hatten. That was the end of my emplojmient.
Mr. Arens. Are you a member of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Hatten. I decline to answer that question on the basis of my
rights under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. We display to you now, if you please, the signature
card and resolutions of authority, etc., on the Pacific National Bank
of Seattle for the Washington Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born, on which appears the signature of Louise Hatten as one of the
officers of that organization. The date is 1954, December.
Kindly look at these documents as they are being displayed to you
and see if you would be good enough to verify their authenticity.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 647a, b," see appendix, pp. 8248,
8249.)
Mrs. Hatten. I decline to answer that question also on the basis of
my rights under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Nov,' we display to you two checks drawn and stamped
by the Washington State Committee for Protection of Foreign Born,
signed by Marian Kinney and Louise Hatten. One is dated September

1956, and the other is in August of 1956.
Kindly look at those checks and see if you won't be good enough to
verify the authenticity of your signature.
Mr. Akens. And while she is doing that, Mr. Chairman, I respect-
fully suggest that if, as and when this witness signs a voucher for her
per diem, that part of the voucher bearing her signature be incorpo-
rated in the body of the record.
(Documents marked "Exhibit Nos. 648a-c," see appendix, pp. 8250-
8252.)
Mr. Doyle, The order is made.
Mrs. Hatten. I refuse to answer again on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of an organization that
bore the name of Queen Anne ?
Mrs. Hatten. I refuse to answer on the same grounds.
Mr, Arens. You were the recording secretary of the Queen Anne
Branch of the Communist Political Association here in Seattle were
;
you not ?
Mrs. Hatten. I refuse to answer that on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact that you were active in the
Communist Party in Philadelphia, and ask you to affirm or deny that
fact.
Mrs. Hatten. I refuse to answer that also on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Are you or have you been an officer of the Washington
State Comm.ittee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mrs. Hatten. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Lillian Clott, C-1-o-t-t ?
Mrs. Hatten. I decline to answer that question also on the groimds
Mr. Arens. What was the address at which you lived when you were
working in Seattle?
Mrs. Hatten. I decline to answer that also on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Mr, Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the wit-
ness be ordered and directed to answer that question,
Mr, DoYi-E. I direct you to answer that question, Witness.
Mrs. Hatten. I decline to answer that on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact and ask you to affirm or deny
the fact that in 1949 you were living with Lillian Clott, a Communist.
Mrs. Hatten. I decline to answer that on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Are you this minute a Communist ?
Mrs. Hatten. I decline to answer that question on the same grounds.
Mr. Doyle. Any questions, Mr. Scherer ?
Mr. Scherer. Yes I have 1 or 2, Mr. Chairman.
;
Is it Mrs. Hatten ?
Mrs. Hatten. Yes.
Mr. Scherer. Mrs. Hatten, since you requested the Seattle Bar As-
sociation to represent you at this hearing because you have no funds, I
assume then that you did not pay the costs or the fees involved
)
in this suit which you filed against this committee 2 days ago.
Who paid those costs and fees ?
Mrs. Hatten. I don't know the answer to that question.
Mr. ScHERER. Well, do you loiow that money was advanced to the
clerk of the Federal district court here so that the subpenas could be
served ? Do you know that ?
Mrs. Hattex. I have heard that that is true.
Mr. ScHERER. Who advanced that money ?
Mrs. Haitex. Well, I don't know.
Mr. ScHERER, Who were your attorneys in this action ?
Mrs. Hatten. There were several attorneys involved in that, and I
am not sure who they all were. Mr. Phil Burton
Mr. Scherer. Give us the names of those you know.
Mrs. Hatten. Mr. Phil Burton, Philip Burton, was the chief coun-
sel in that action.
Mr. Scherer. What other attorneys that you know of participated
in the filing of this action on your behalf ?
Mrs. Hatte^t. I know that I don't know all of them, but I know
Mr. Sykes, Jay Sykes, Mr. John Caughlan, and Mr. Francis Hoague.
Mr. Scherer. Your husband is a member of the Seattle bar. Was
he one of counsel ?
Mrs. Hattek. No he wasn't one of them.
;
Mr. Scherer. Did you see this complaint before it was filed ?
Mrs. Hattex. No I didn't, sir.
;
Mr. Scherer, Did you know w^hat the complaint contained ?

Mrs. Hatten". Yes in general I know what is in it.
;
Mr. Scherer. What part did the Communist Party have in the prep-
aration of this complaint and the filing of this complaint ?
( The witness confers v:ith her counsel.
Mrs. Hattex. I decline to answer that question on the basis of the

fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. Do you know how many of the parties involved with
vou as plaintiffs in this action were actual members of the Communist
Party?
Mrs. Hatten. I decline to answer that question on the basis of the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. Did you Iniow that at least one of the attorneys was
a member of the Communist Party ?
Mrs. Hattejst. Again I must decline to answer that question on the
basis of the fifth amendment.
Mr. Scherer. Now before we pass on to another matter, Mr, Chair-
man, I want to apologize to you because when you said that this com-
plaint alleged that the three Members of the Congress who were parties
defendants were residents of King County, Seattle, Wash., I questioned
that. I didn't tliink they would have the gall to make that allegation
in order to obtain jurisdiction.
But, in reading the petition, I find that you were right and I am
wrong.
We were not even present in the State of Washington at the time
this affidavit was made. Nor were we present, actually present, in the
State of Washington at the time the suit was filed. And, of course, we
are not residing in the State of Washington. That is obvious. We are
here as visitors on assignment of the Congress of the United States.
So I apologize for questioning j'ôur statement this morning.
Mr. Doyle. Well, you and I both have practiced law jears before
we first went to Congress, and we know that is bad faith with the
court, to deliberately make a knowingly false and untrue allega-
tion in order to get jurisdiction.
Mr. ScHERER. Well, if you will recall, the party plaintiif who actu-
ally signed this complaint was on the stand yesterday and took the fifth
amendment when I asked her whether all the allegations in this peti-
tion or complaint were true. And there are others that I do not want
to discuss at this time.
Mr. Doyle. You and I in our years on this committee have learned
we can expect most anything false and misrepresentative and untrue
from any committee that is controlled by the Communist Party the way
this American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born is through-
out the United States so far as the evidence is concerned. We know
that. But we can't overlook it just because they are in the habit of
lying.
Mr. Doyle. I have no questions.
You are excused, Witness, and counsel.
Thank you.
Mr. Arens. Julia Ruuttila, R.-u-u-t-t-i-1-a.
Mr. D0Y1.E. Will you please raise your right hand and be sworn.
and nothing bii the truth, so help you God ?
t
Mrs. Ruuttila. Yes, I do, so help me, God.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. JULIA HUUTTILA, ACCOMPANIED BY COUN-

SEL, FKANK H. POZZI AND BERKELEY LENT
Mr. Arens. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence-

Mrs. Ruuttila. May I request no pictures, no television, and no
movies.
And please accept my apologies as a reporter for making this request.
Mr. Doyle. The press always cooperates with such a request, and
I am sure they will in this instance.
pation.
Mrs. Ruuttila. My name is Julia Ruuttila.
Mr. Arens. We can't hear you.
Mrs. Ruuttila. My name is Julia Ruuttila,
Mr. Arens. Please get a little closer to the microphone.
Mr. Doyle. May the witness spell that name, Mr. Arens, please.
Mr. Arens. Is it R-u-u-t-t-i-1-a ?
Mrs. Ruuttila. Yes, it is.
I have a bad case of pleurisy, and it is difficult for me to talk. I

will do my best.
My name is Julia Ruuttila. I live in Astoria, Oreg. I am a house-
wife,and I do a little writing.
Activities ?
Mrs. Ruuttila. Yes, I am.
Mrs. Ruuttila. Yes, I am.
Mr. Arens. Will counsel kindly identify yourselves.
Mr. Pozzi. F. H. Pozzi, Loyalty Building, Portland, Oreg. B. Lent, ;
Loyalty Building, Portland, Oreg.

Mr. Arens. What was your maiden name, Mrs. Ruuttila?
Mrs. Ruuttila. I respectfully decline to answer that question, based
upon my rights, privileges, and immunities accorded to me by the first,
fourth, fifth, ninth, and tenth amendments of the Constitution of the
United States.
ordered and directed to answer the question as to what is her maiden
name.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you, Witness, to answer the question.
Mrs. Ruuttila. I must decline to answer on the same grounds that
I have stated.
Mr. Arens. For whom do you do this writing? You said in
your apologies to the press that you do a little writing and you are a
reporter.
For whom do you report and for what publication do you write ?
Mrs. Ruuttila. I am a free-lance reporter, and the only thing that
I am doing regularly at the present time is I send Oregon local ILWU
news items to the official union newspaper, the Dispatcher.
Mr. Scherer. I can't hear the witness.
Mrs. Ruuttila. I am a free-lance reporter and writer, and the only
thing that I am doing regularly at the present time is I send local
ILWU news items from Oregon to the official union newspaper, the
Dispatcher.
Mr. Arens. Under what name do you write?
Mrs. Ruuitila. I write for the Dispatcher under the name Kathleen
Ruuttila.
Mr. Arens. Spell that, please.
Mrs. Ruuttila. K-a-t-h-]-e-e-n R-u-u-t-t-i-1-a.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever used the non de plume Julia Eaton?
Mr, Arens. You don't need to read that again. If you just want to
invoke the fifth amendment, invoke it.
Mrs. Ruuttila. I decline
Mrs. Ruuttila. I decline to answer on the basis of all the reasons I
stated before.
)
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel, young lady, that if you told this
committee truthfully whether or not you write under the name of
Julia Eaton you would be supplying information that could be used
against you in a criminal proceeding ?
Mrs. KuuTTiLA. I must decline to answer that for the reasons pre-
viously given.
Mr. Doyle. I direct the witness to answer that question.
Mrs. EuuTTiLA. Will you repeat the question, please.
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Do you honestly appreliend if you told tliis committee truthfully
whether or not you write under the name or have written under the
name of Julia Eaton you would be supplying information that might
be used against you in a criminal proceeding ?
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Now for wliat other publications do you write besides
the labor group that you have told about, this ILWU ?
Mrs. EuuTTiLA. I have written a good deal of poetry for the
Oregonian.
Mr. Arens. I didn't get that. Say that again, please.
Mr. RuuTTiLA. I have written a good deal of poetry for the poetry
page of the Oregonian.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that counsel for the witness be
admonished not to touch the witness, and to signal her in that respect,
and to wait until the witness requests advice from counsel.
Now, ma'am, what other publications have you written for?
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. I have written a good deal of poetry for the poetry
page of the Oregonian published in Portland, Oreg.
Mr. Arens. What other publications ?
Mrs. RutJTTiLA. I must decline to answer on the reasons previously
stated.
Mr. Arens. Now I want to lay before you a few exhibits. First of
all,we have an exhibit from the Communist Daily People's World,
Julia Eaton, whose articles have appeared in the Daily People's World
under the byline Kathleen Cronin, was fired under a loyalty program
over in Portland.
Look at this article and tell this committee now while you are under
oath if it is not a fact that you are the same person, Kathleen Cronin
and Julia Eaton and Julia Ruuttila.
Mrs. Ruuttila. I must decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, ma'am, that you are one and
the same person as indicated in the Communist publication.
Now, we want to lay before you a copj'' of the Communist Daily
People's World in which your photograph appears, in a striking like-
ness to your present appearance, in 1948. A photograph of Julia
. ) :
Eaton, who, according to the articles, was discharged from tlie Oregon
Public Welfare Commission.
Kindly look at that article and tell us if you won't be good enough
to verify the authenticity of jôur photograph and of that designation
of youi*self
Mrs. RuTJTTiLA. I must decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer that question, Witness.
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. I must decline to answer on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Arens. Were you fired because you criticized the Oregon Public
Welfare Commission ?
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. I received a letter from the commission, signed by
Loa Howard, the administrator, firing me without notice and with no
reasons being given.
Mr. Arens. And under what name did this all transpire?
Mrs. Rutjttila. I must decline to answer on the reasons I have
previously stated.
]\lr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness be
ordered and directed to answer this question.
Mr. Doyle. I again direct you to answer that question. Witness.
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. I must decline to answer for the same reasons.
Mr. Arens. I would like to display to you one of your creative
efforts in the field of writing. It is in the Connnunist Daily People's
World, an article about America's stepchildren, telling about 14
million persons of foreign birth who are jeopardized under the in-
famous law, the McCarran-Walter Act, by Julia Ruuttila.
Look at this article in which all kinds of allegations and assertions
are made respecting a reign of terror in the United States, and see
if you don't want to apologize again to the press representatives who
are here because of your authorship of that article.
Mrs. RuL-TTiLA. Will you have the question repeated for me, please.
Arens. Yes.
'Sir.
Kindly repeat tlie question back to the witness, Mr. Reporter.
Tlie question was read by the i-eporter.)
(
Mrs. laiuTTiLA. I shall have to decline to answer on the grounds

previously stated.
Mr. Arens. I should like to display to you still another article.
It is from the Communist Daily Worker, Sunday, January 29, 1956.
It is a curious thing I want to invite your attention to.
The by-line says by "Julia Ruutila". And there is a descriptioii
of who this "Julia Ruutila" is. It says this is
First of a series of articles written exclusively for Federated Press by Mrs.
liuuttila, secretary of tlie Clatsop County Coniniittee for I'rotection of Foreign
Boin.
:
The article is headed: "McCarran Act Exiled Over 11,000 Last

Year."
A vicious attack against a security law of this country.
Look at this article and see if you don't want to repeat the apology
you made to your fellow pressmen who are present today.
^Document marked "Exhibit No. 652," see appendix, pp. 8257, 8258.)
Mrs. Ruui'TiLA. I must decline to answer on the grounds that I
previously stated.
Mr. Arens. Are you honestly described there, truthfully described
there as secretary of the Clatsop County Committee for Protection
of Foreign Born ?
Mrs. KuuTTiLA. I must decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. And have you been connected with the Astoria Com-
mittee for the Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. I must decline to answer on the same grounds I
previously stated.
Mr. Arens. I want to submit to you still another article from
the Communist Daily Worker of February 5, 1956, entitled "Shadow :
of Fear Hangs Over Many Foreign Born, by Josephine Euutila (sic) ."
And the lead paragraph I want to read to you
Hundreds of victims of the vicious McCarran-Walter Nationality Act just
disappear from the American scene. People remembered by neighbors and
workers as "that nice Canadian woman I used to meet at the supermarket" or
— —
that Norwegian or Italian, or Finn "who worked on the green chain."
People who had no money for lawyers' fees, no idea which lawyer to approach.
Men who told their wives before they were hauled off to .jail "Call up the plant
:
(or the hiring hall). Tell 'em I can't come to work for a while, but say I'm
sick." Men who never saw their fellowworkers again.
Don't you want to apologize now again to the press, your fellow
pressmen, for this monstrous misrepresentation appearing in a Com-
munist publication with reference to a security law passed by the
Congress of the United States?
Look at that article and tell this committee while you are under oath
and your fellow pressmen, to whom you apologized a few moments
ago for not permitting your picture to be taken, whether or not you
are the author of that diatribe.
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. It was rather lengthy.
Would you please have it repeated to me, please.
Mr. Arens. Yes.
First of all, do you want to apologize writing that article to your
fellow pressmen ?
Mrs. EuuTTiLA. I must respectfully refuse to answer the last ques-
tions upon the rights, privileges, and immunities afforded to me by
the 1st, 4th, 5th, 9th and 10th amendments to the Constitution of the
United States.
Mr. Arens. Do you know of a single case in which a person has
—
been the subject of investigation exclusion, deportation in which —
you or your organization have taken an active interest, in which that
person is not a member of the Communist conspiracy ?
: — •
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. I'm sorrry, but I don't have too much breath. I
have pleurisy. And you didn't permit me to finish answering.
Mr. Pozzi. The previous question.
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. The previous question.
Mr. Arens. I thought she just invoked the fifth amendment.
Mr. Pozzi. She has some other grounds.
Mr. Arens. You go ahead and give us all the grounds you want to
give us.
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. I further decline to answer that question on the
grounds that it is not pertinent to the matter and question under in-
quiry.
And I further decline to answer that question on the grounds that
it is beyond the scope of matters concerning which this commission
is authorized to inquire.
Mr. Arens. We would like to display to you still another docu-
ment from the Communist Daily Worker of February 12, 1956 "Im- —
—
migration Laws Create Second-Class Citizenship" again alluding to
the reign of terror because of the McCarran-Walter Act which pro-
vides for the deportation of Communist traitor aliens.
Kindly look at this document and tell this committee while you are
under oath whether or not that is one of your handiworks.
(Document marked "Exhibit No. 654," see appendix, p, 8260.)
Mrs. Ktjdttil^. I must decline to answer this question upon all of
the grounds, all of them that I have previously stated.
Mr. Arens. I would like to discuss with you for a few moments
some of your other activities.
Wesee here in 1948, in a copy of the Communist Daily AVorker —
"Oregon Communist Party Presents Flood Aid Plan, by Kathleen
Cronin"
The Oregon Communist Party today presented a blueprint for relief of
certain flood victims.
Kindly look at this document and see if you were the author and if
you can't be good eough to verify the authenticity of your authorship
of that article.
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. I must decline to answer this question on the
grounds already given.
Mr. Arens. Now we would like to display to you, in series here,
—
in order to economize on time, articles of your authorship Kathleen
—
Cronin appearing in Communist publications.
Kindly look at those documents and tell this committee while you
are under oath whether or not you are the author of those articles.
(Documents marked "Exhibit No. 656 a, b," see appendix, pp. 8262,
8263.)
Mr. Lent. Where exhibits are attached in 2 parts are you referring
to it all as 1 exhibit ?
Mr. Arens. That is right, yes.
Mrs. RuuTFiLA. I must decline to answer on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Now I see here a document that puzzles me a little, and
perhaps you can help us.
Kathleen Cronin, well-known labor journalist in the Northwest, has agreed
MOL's correspondent in the Northwest States.
to serve as
85333— 57— pt. 1 57
And then these is an article appearing: "Marshall Plan in Reverse,

by Kathleen Cronin, MOL's Northwestern correspondent." This
article appears in March of Labor.
Tell us, if you please, ma'am, while you are under oath, are you
or were you one of the correspondents for the March of Labor ?
^Document marked "Exhibit No. 657," see appendix, p. 8264.)
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. I must decline to answer upon all of the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Arens. I have here, by an article by yourself "It Was Murder
:
on Clatsop Spit." All about a man who, as a result of the immigra-

tion laws wiiere he was deported, finds himself facing death and
murder, under the authorship of Kathleen Cronin.
Would you tell us about that case while you are under oath on this
record ? And would you also verify the authenticity of your author-
ship of that article.
Mr. EurrmLA. I decline to answer upon all of the reasons I have
previously given.
Mr. Arens. What is your husband's name, for the purpose of
identification ?

Mrs. RuuTTiLA. My husband's name is Oscar Ruuttila.
Mr. Arens. Thank you. Now I want to show you another exhibit
from the Communist Daily People's World of August 2, 1951, when
the 11 Communist traitors were on trial in New York City,
According to this article, Oscar Ruuttila of Astoria, Oreg. wired
Mr. Truman that the arrest of these people constitutes a horrible
nightmare in America from which there may be no awakening unless
you act now. And Kathleen Cronin, who is listed in the same article
as a veteran labor journalist in the Northwest, wired the Attorney
General her vigorous protest.
Unless you act now to reduce the prohibitive bail in this case many working
newsmen will regard you as a second Goebbels.

That was directed to the Attorney General in protest of the arrest
of the 11 Communist traitors who were tried in New York City.
Now tell your fellow pressmen, to whom you apologized a little
while ago, whether you really were sincere when you felt the arrest
of these 11 Communist traitors, the trial of them by a jury of their
peers, and their conviction, was really just a matter of Goebbels' opera-
tion and a reign of terror.
Mr. ScHERER. Even with the high bail, didn't some of them jump
bail?
Mr. Arens. I think 1 or 2 of them did, yes.
Mr. ScHERER. They couldn't find them.
The bail should have been higher.
Mrs. Rtjdttila. I must decline to answer upon the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Arens. Maybe you can give us a little bit of enlightenment
as towhat you mean in this article "Layoffs Mount as State Depart-
:
ment Bans China Trade." It is in the Communist Daily Worker^

: ) —
hj Kathleen Cronin, in which our Government is taken to task for

bannino; trade with Eecl China, Communist China, and in which
article that is described and characterized as one of the principal
causes for the layofl's of the working people.
Look at that article and see if you don't have perhaps a twinge of
conscience that maybe you may have stretched the facts a bit.
( See exhibit No. 656b, appendix, p. 8263.

previously stated.
Mr. Arens. I have just 1 or 2 more articles I want to ask
you about. And you understand we are very happy to have you speak
up freely. We are not undertaking to impede your free speech here.
Here is an article appearing in the Communist Daily People's
World. "Framed" is the name of the article, the title. Framed."
Just one word. The author of this article about people being framed,
with a photograph, is Julia Eaton.
She is described this way
Julia Eaton, who writes under the name of Kathleen Cronin
She is identified further as a personwho is a special correspondent
for the Daily People's World.
Look at that article and that photograph and see if you have any
apology to oiler for that photograph.
Mr. Arens. I put it to you as a fact, ma'am, that you are a member
identified, or have been, with the North End Club of the Communist
Party in Portland, Oreg., and that you are now and have been for
several years one of the principal propagandists in the Northwest for
the Communist conspiracy. If that isn't true, deny it, while you are
under oath.
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. Would you repeat the question, please.
Mr. Arens. Yes.
I put it to you as a fact that in the course of the last few years you
were actively identified with a Communist cell in Portland, Oreg.
That is question No, 1. North End Club. Answer that question and
then we will get on to the next one.
Mr. Pozzr. Mr. Arens, I am sorry to interrupt but are these gentle-
men taking pictures?
A Photographer. No. We
are just looking.
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. I must decline to answer upon the grounds I pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Arens. Now will we get to the second question.
I put it to you as a fact, ma'am, and ask you to affirm or deny the
fact that you are and have been for some several years been one of the
principal propagandists in the Northwest for the Communist con-
spiracy.
Mrs. Rtjuttila. Would you repeat the question to me, please.

Mr. Arens. Yes, ma'am, I would be glad to, for the third time.
I put it to you as a fact, that you are now and have been for some
time one of the principal propagandists for the Communist conspiracy
in the Northwest.
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. I must decline to answer upon all of the grounds I
have previously stated.
clude the staff interogation of this witness.
Mr. Scherer. Madam, you have written about the alleged reign
of terror resulting from the application of the provisions of the se-
curity acts of this country.
Have you written anything at all about the reign of terror resulting
from the massacres by the Communists of the Hungarians in the last
few months?
Mr. Doyle. Of course, that would have been published if she had,
at least a week or 10 days ago.
Mr. Scherer. A month.
Mr. Doyle. Or a month ago.
So she should have a copy of it, shouldn't she ?
Mr. Scherer. If she wrote it,
Mr. Doyle. If she wrote it. Sure.
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. No.
Mr. Scherer. The answer is no ?
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. That is correct.
Mr. Scherer. Did you approve the actions of the Communists in
Hungary ?
Is that the reason you haven't said anything about it ?
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. Which Communists ?
Mr. Scherer. The Communists are an international group.
The Russians.
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. The question is so unclear to me that I must decline
answer on the grounds I previously stated.
Mr. Scherer. The question is unclear ?
T merely asked Do you approve of the actions of the Russian Com-
:
munists against the people of Hungary who are asking for self-determi-
— —
nation of their Government that is clear and the obvious reign of
terror which the whole world knows has been created by the kill-
ing of these people who have merely asked that they have the right
to select their own Government and not be dominated by the Kremlin?
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. I have never been in a position to cover that story,
and I haven't read too much about it. But, from the little that I
have read in the press, I disapprove.
Mr. Scherer. From tlie little she has read about it, slie disapproves.
Mr. Arens. It liasn't caused you to break with the Communist con-
spiracy, though, has it ?
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. I must decline to answer that question on the
grounds T have previously stated.
Mr. Scherer. But you have not said anything about it in your
writings in the articles you have submitted to tliese papers for whom
)
you write ? You have not gone on record publicly in any of your writ-
ings as criticizing the action of the Kussian Communists, have you ?
Mrs. EuuTTiLA. I must decline to answer that question on all of the

reasons I have previously given.
Mr. ScHERER. I put it to you as a fact that you liave not written one
single word criticizing the action of the Russian Communists in Hun-
gary in relation to the oppression of the Hungarians who are attempt-
ing to have self-determination in their own Government.
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. I am very sorry, I turned to my attorney. I
thought you had finished the question. I am afraid I missed part of it.
Mr. ScHERER. I put it to you as a fact, and if it is not a fact will you
deny it, that you have not written one single word criticizing or con-
demning the actions of the Russian Communists in Hungary.
Mr. Doyle. Well, she said she had read very little about it. I didn't
suppose there was a newspaper person or a writer in America that, in
the presence of all the newsp'aper headlines and voluminous Associated
and UP reports about the slaughter in Hungary by the Soviet Com-
—
munists I didn't suppose there was any intelligent person that had
read very little about it.
But this witness— I understood her to say she read very little
about it.
Mr. ScHERER. That is right. But I just say I put it to her as a fact
that she has not written one word condemning or criticizing the action
of the Russian Communists in Hungary.
Mr. Doyle. How could she write anything intelligent about it, Mr.
Scherer? She said she had read very little about it.
ISIr. Scherer. Is what I have said true ?
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. In answer to Representative Scherer, the answer
would be "no" in answer to the question that he has.
Mr. Scherer. The answer is what ?
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. No.
]\Ir. Scherer. No, you have not written.
All right.
jMr. Doyle. I think while the witness is on the stand I want to read
one brief paragraph, and I think I want to ask her a question.
I hold in my hand a copy of Public Law 831 by the 81st Congress.
This is known as the Internal Security Act of 1950. Are you familiar
with that law, Mrs. Cronin?
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. To answer your question, to say that I was extremely
familiar with that law would imply that I had a detailed, technical
knowledge of the law through having studied and read it to consider-
able extent.
]\[r.Doyle. You do have ?
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. I would not say that I did have as much detailed
knowledge of that law as some lawyers might have, no.
Mr. Doyle. No. But you have a good knowledge, do you not you
feel you do —
about the objectives of that law, without knowing the
—
detail of it?
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. I am not that familiar, Representative Doyle.
) :
Mr. Doyle. I heg your pardon ?

Mrs. RuuTTiLA. I am not that familiar with the law, Representative
Doyle.
Mr. Doyle. Well, I took it you were at least familiar enough with
it so that ycu wrote against it. I would assume that you would know
what you were talking about when you wrote an article against it.
Mr. DoYLE. You assumed to know enough about it to inform your
readers against it, I think this testimony shows. So you were writing
something you didn't know anything about. Was that it ?
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. I will decline to answer that question on the grounds
Mr. DoYLE. Now I am going to read you one paragraph, and this
is the very first section of the act about which you have written some
articles condemning it. And certainly you took time to read this
much before you wrote your article for pay to the Communist paper.
Now this is a declaration by your Congress, of which Mr. Scherer
and I are a part for several years. And here is what it says in section 1
This title may be cited as the Subversive Activities Control Act of 1950.
Nothing in this act shall be construed to authorize, require, or establish military
or civilian censorship or in any way to limit or infringe upon freedom of the
press or of speech as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States, and
no regulation shall be promulgated hereunder having that effect.
(Representative Gordon H. Sclierer wîthdrew from the hearing

room at this point.
Mr. DoYLE. Section 2.
As a result of evidence adduced before the various committees of the Senate
—
and House of Representatives, the Congress hereby finds that there exists a
world Communist movement which in its origins, its development and its present
practice, is a worldwide revolutionary movement whose purpose it is, by treachery,
deceit, infiltration into other groups (governmental and otherwise), espionage,
sabotage, terrorism, and any other means deemed necessary, to establish a Com-
munist totalitarian dictatorship in the countries throughout the world through
the medium of a worldwide Communist organization.
End of quote.
As long you have written in the Communist People's World con-
as
demning and criticizing this act, one paragraph of which I have read,
I will give you the opportunity to criticize that paragraph, if vou
will.
anything wrong in that ?
Is there
Your United States Congress made that finding.
Did we make a mistake or no ?
Mrs. RuuTTiLA. I must decline to answer on the same grounds previ-
ously stated. Representative Doyle.
Mr. DoYLE. I would suggest that before you write any more articles
condemning the internal security provisions of our existing statutes
that you study them a little bit more so you will know what you are
talking about instead of having to testify under oath that you don't
know nuK'h about them.
I think that is all from this winess.
Thank you, and counsel.
Mr, Arens. Maybe you want to take a recess.
Mr. Doyle. May we have not over a 5-minute recess.
:
(Whereupon a brief recess was taken. Committee membei-s present

Representative Doyle.)
Committee members present: Representatives Doyle and Scherer.)
Mr. Doyle. While we are waitinp; for just a minute, I will state
that there will be an afternoon session of this committee starting at
2 o'clock.
We will run as long as necessary to hear all the witnesses we want
to.
]Mr.Arens. Are you ready for the first witness, Mr, Chairman ?
Mr. DoYLB. Yes.
Mr. Arexs. Vincent Howard, kindly come forward.
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Howard, will you please raise your right hand.
Do 3'ou solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
jNIr. Howard. I do.
Mr. DoYi.E. Please take the witness chair.
TESTIMONY OP VINCENT HOWARD, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,

JAY G. SYKES
Mr. Arexs. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence and occu-
pation.
Mr. Howard. My name is Vincent M. Howard. I live at 2706 North
Williams Avenue.
Mr. Arexs. Will it be convenient for you if you get a little closer to
the microphone ?
Mr. Howard. My name is Vincent M. Howard. I live at 2706 Xorth
Williams Avenue, Portland, Oreg. xVnd I am a warehouseman.
Mr. Arexs. Mr. Howard, I have to apologize to you. We couldn't
hear you.
Would you kindly accommodate us by repeating that?
]yir. Howard. My name is Vincent M. Howard. I live at 2706 North
Williams Avenue, IPortland, Oreg. I am a warehouseman.
Mr. Arexs. You are appearing today in response to a subpena
Activities ?
iVIr. Howard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arex'S. And you are represented by counsel ?
Mr. Howard. Yes, sir.

Mr. Arenas. Counsel, will you kindly identify yourself?
Mr. Sykes. My
name is Jay G. Sykes. And I am representing this
witness at the request of and on behalf of the Washington State Chap-
ter of the American Civil Liberties Union,
Mr. Arexs. Mr. Howard, please tell us the post you hold with the
Committee for the Protection of Oregon's Foreign Born.
Mr. Howard. I hold no post with that organization.
Mr. Arexs. Have you ever held a position of educational director
for the Committee for the Protection of Oregon's Foreign Born ?
Mr. Howard. I have not.
Mr. Arexs. Have you ever been identified with the organization in
any capacity?
Mr. Howard. I have not.
)
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of the Civil Rights Con-
gress of Portland ?
Mr. Howard. Yes.
Mr. Sykes. Just a minute.
Mr. Howard. Well, I decline to answer that under the
Mr. Arens. You have already answered it. You said "Yes." It
is on this record.
Mr. ScHERER. Maybe he wants to change his answer.
Mr. Howard. Will you repeat the question.
Mr. Arens. The question was are you a member and officer of the
:
Civil Rights Congress in Portland ? And you said yes.

Mr. Howard. Well, I am not. I misunderstood the question.
Mr. Arens. I see. Have you ever been identified with the Civil
Rights Congress of Oregon ?
Mr. Howard. I refuse to answer on the fifth.
Mr. Arens. Are you now or have you ever been a Communist ?
Mr. Howard. I refuse to answer that question on the fifth also.
Mr. Arens. That will conclude the staff interrogation of this
witness.
Mr. Doyle. Any questions, Mr. Scherer ?
Mr. Scherer. Have you ever been identified with any committee
for the protection of the foreign born ?
Mr. Howard. I don't understand what that "identified" means.
Mr. Scherer. Member of.
Mr. Howard. I refuse to answer that under the fifth.
Mr. Howard. No.
—
Mr. Scherer. As I understand it maybe I am confused you —
denied having ever been a member of the Oregon Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born, but you have taken the fifth amendment to
my question as to whether or not you have been a member of any com-
mittee for the protection of the foreign born. Is that right ?
Mr. Howard. I ask you to repeat the question. I wasn't sure what
it was.
Mr. Scherer. Have you ever been a member of the American Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born or any of its branch or local
organizations ?
Mr. Howard. I will take the first and fifth on that.
Mr. Scherer. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Doyle. The witness is
Mr. Arens. I would like to ask this one question: Did you attend
a session in Oregon in which Pettis Perry spoke on behalf of the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Howard. I will take the first and the fifth on that.
Mr. Arens. Did you confer with Abner Green, executive secretary
of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born with refer-
ence to the operations of that organization in Oregon ?
Mr. Howard. I will take the first and fifth.
Mr. Arens. We have no further questions of this witness, Mr.
Chairman.
Mr. Doyle. The witness is excused. Thank you, counsel.
Mr. Arens. The next witness, if you please, Mr. Chairman, will be
Norman Haaland, H-a-a-1-a-n-d.
Norman Haaland.
Mr. Sykes, Congressman Doyle, because of certain legal issues that
may have been raised by responses of clients that I have represented,
I feel that I must ask the committee whether it considers that it has
stated officially and formally for the record the purpose and scope
of this inquiry.
Mr. ScHERER. Yes.
Mr. Doyle. Yes it has been stated several times.
;
Mr. ScHERER. We made a long opening statement which is a part

of the record, and a part of which has been reported in the press.
Mr. Sykes. Congressman Scherer, do I understand that that formal
statement, that that statement you made, you consider the formal
official statement as to the purposes?
Mr. Doyle. No, no.
When I make a statement as a preliminary statement, we are not
limited in our questions by that statement, if that is what you are
getting at. That is merely a preliminary statement. don't intendWe
to be limited by that or by anything else we legally inquire into. Does
that help you?
Mr. Sykes. Yes, Congressman. I am raising this question on a
legal point.
Mr. Doyle. This is not a court, sir. And we will not entertain any
legal points.
Mr. Sykes. If the matter comes to court, the issue of the scope of
this inquirymight be relevant.
Mr. Arens. You prove your case on the basis of the information
you have.
Mr. Doyle. The law gives the scope, and not any preliminary state-
ment.
Mr. Arens. Norman Haaland, kindly come forward.
Mr. Haaland. I am standing before 3'ôu.
Mr. Arens. Please raise your right hand.
and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Haaland. Yes.
TESTIMONY OF NORMAN HAALAND ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL, ;
JAY G. SYKES
occupation.
Mr. Haaland. I am Norman Haaland, of Portland, Oreg.
Mr. Arens. How do you spell that, please?
Mr. Haaland. H-a-a-1-a-n-d. And I am unemployed.
Mr. Arens. And your address ?
)
Mr. Haaland. 1727 Southeast Ladd.

Mr. Arens. When were you last employed ?
Mr. Haaland. I was last employed in Portland, Oreg.
Activities ?
Mr. Haaland. That is right.
Mr. Haaland. That is right.
Mr. Sykes. My name is Jay Sykes, and I am representing this
witness on behalf of and at the request of the Washington State
chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union.
Mr. Arens. Wliat was your last employment, please, Mr. Haaland ?
Mr. Haaland. You mean the nature of that or what date it was
Mr. Arens. What was it ?
Mr. Haaland. It was carpenter work.
Mr. Arens. And how long were you employed there ?
Mr. Haaland. Seven or eight days.
Mr. Arens. Wliat was your last principal employment prior to this
carpentry work ?
Mr. Haaland. Carpenter work.

Mr. Arens. And for how long were you engaged in this carpentry
work?
Mr. Haaland. Sir, does that mean how long I have been at the
trade?
Mr. Aeens. Yes, sir. That would help us.
Mr. Haaland. Approximately 10 years.
Mr. Arens. Could you tell us of some of your outside activities?
You have told us of your principal occupation as a carpenter.
What have been some of your outside interests and activities in
addition to your carpentry work?
Mr. Haaiând. I would like to have that question more specific.
Mr. Arens. Well, you have engaged in the aged and honorable
profession or trade of a carpenter. Tell us some of your outside in-
terests and activities that you engage in or have engaged in in your
spare time in the course of the last 10 years.
Are you still a little bit uncertain about what we are talking about?
Mr. Haaland. I refuse to answer that question on the basis of the
1st, 4th, 5th, and I think I will invoke the 9th and 10th amendments
as well.
Mr. Arens. Do you belong to any lodges ?
Mr, Haaland. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds.
Mr. Arens. Do you belong to any organizations of the nonsub-
versive variety ?
Mr. Haaland. What do you mean by nonsubversive ?
)
Mr. Arens. We are right back where we started from. Let's

enumerate now, if you please, the organizations that you have belonged
to in the course of the last 5 years.
Mr. Arexs. If you want me to help you, I can perhaps suggest to
you, do you belong to the American Legion ?
Mr. Haaland. I have already answered your previous question,
but that I
Mr. Arens. Do you belong to the American Legion? You wanted
me to be a little more specific. Let's try that.
Mr. Haaland. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that
it might incriminate me.
Mr. Ajrens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully
Mr. Sykes. Excuse me.
(The witness confers with his covmsel.)
Mr. Sykes. May the witness finish the answer ?
Mr. Arens. You go right ahead, Witness.
Mr. Haaland. Under the amendments of the Bill of Eights, as
previously stated. I think that is covered by amendment No. 5.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness
be ordered and directed to answer the question whether or not he
belongs to the American Legion.
Mr. Doyle. Yes, I so instruct you, Witness.
Mr. Doyle. We have never known a case where membership in

the American Legion might possibly incriminate a patriotic American
citizen.
Mr. Haaland. I think this might incriminate me, and I might waive
my right under the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel if you told this committee whether
or not you are or have been a member of the American Legion you
would he giving information that could be used against you in a
criminal proceeding?
Mr. Haaland. Yes. I don't know anything about the character of
it, and it might be subversive as far as I know.
Mr. Arens. Do you hold a card in the carpenter's union ?
INIr. Haaland. Yes.
Mr. Arens. And what organization is that ? TNHiat labor organiza-
tion is that?
Mr. Haaland. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds pre-
viously stated.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, ^Mr. Chairman, the witness
be ordered and directed to answer that question. He has already said
he holds a card in a labor organization. I just asked him Avhich
organization it was.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer that question, Witness.
Mr. Haaland. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds.

Mr. Arens. Can you tell the committee what you have done for
the preservation of the Constitution in the course of the last 5 or 10
years ?
Mr. Haaland. I refuse to answer
Mr. Stkes. Just a minute,
Mr. Haaland. Would you make that more specific ?
Mr. Arens. Yes. What organizations have you been active in
which, on the surface at least, purport to be interested in preserving
the Constitution ?
viously stated, and also that it is not a clear question.
Mr. Arens. Let's be as specific as possible. Have you been an
official of the Committee for Protection of Oregon's Foreign Born?
viously stated.
Mr. Arens. Back in 1955 you were chairman of the ways and
means committee of the Committee for the Protection of Oregon's
Foreign Born, were you not?
viously stated.
Mr. Arens. And presently you are an official of the Portland Com-
munist Party and an official of the State apparatus of the Communist
conspiracy are you not ?
;

viously stated.
Mr. DoTLE. Mr. Scherer?
Mr. Doyle. I have one question. Witness.
I understood you to say that one of the reasons you refused to
answer the question whether or not you were a member of the Ameri-
can Legion was that it might be subversive.
You so stated, did you not ?
I think the record will show that. I clearly heard you.
Mr. Doyle. And in connection with that answer you relied upon
your constitutional privilege, and then added that the American
Legion might be subversive.
Now is the reason you claimed your constitutional privilege in an-
swer to the last question by our distinguished counsel regarding the
—
Communist Party in Portland is the reason you claim your constitu-
tional privilege there also because it might be subversive?
(The witness confers v/ith his counsel.)
Mr. Haaland. I do refuse to answer that on the grounds previously
stated.
Mr. Doyle. I couldn't help but notice that you put the American
Legion in the possible category of being subversive, but you don't
put the Communist Party in that answer in that same category.
Mr. Haaland. I refuse to answer that on the same grounds.
)
Mr. Doyle. I wanted you to know that we had noticed that answer
ubout the Leojion.
Mr. ScHERER. A typical Communist answer.
Mr. Doyle. It is typical. No, no. This is the first time I have
ever heard a man state from the witness chair that the Legion might
be subversive.
Mr. Arens. Tliat term subversive me<ans perhaps in some people's
terminology subversive to their interests.
Mr. Sciierer. The Communist Party.
Mr. Doyle. That is, the Legion might be undertaking to destroy the
Communist Party, and therefore be subversive. I see. Well, that ex-
plains it. The witness is excused.
Mr. Arens, The next witness, please, Mr. Chairman, is John Dasch-
bach. John Daschbach, please come forward.
Mr. Caughlan. My client requests that there be no pictures taken
during his interrogation, if you please.
Mr. Doyle. We will observe the freedom of the press at all times
before the witness is sworn, actually sworn, and after he is dismissed
from the witness chair.
But, of course, when the witness is sworn, counsel, then we recognize
that he is under the control of the committee for a lawful purpose,
and we expect the press to fully regard the expressed wish of the
witness.
Mr. Caughlan. Thank you. Of course, I call your attention to the
fact that he is here under subpena, and he was to be here. So that,
as far as freedom is concerned
Mr. Doyle. That is right. And, of course, the press does not have
to be here, but it also has some freedoms in our country. We won't
undertake to control the free exercise of democracy by the press.
Mr. Caughlan". I assume the hearing is under the control of the
chairman, and the chairman can make any directions he sees fit.
Mr. Doyle. I will never direct the press to not take a picture of a
person in a hearing room when he is not under oath. Please raise
your right hand.
Mr. Daschbacpi. I do.
Mr. DoTLE. Please take the chair.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN DASCHBACH, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,

JOHN CAUGHLAN
pation.
Mr. Dasctibach. I am appearing here under subpena. My name is
Jolm Daschbach.
Mr. Arens. Your occupation ?
Mr. Daschbach. I would like to have that question again.

Mr. Arens. And your occupation, please, sir ?
Mr. Caughlan. May I advise the connnittee Mr. Daschbach is
somewhat hard of hearing, and we may have some difficulty.
Mr. Arens. Please give us your occupation.
))

Mr, Doyle. Mr. Arens, excuse me.
Counsel, will you please explain to the witness, in view of the fact
that he has an open book on his table there from which he apparently
intends to read in whole or in part, that we do not permit any reading
of prepared statements or any books or histories or anything like that.
If there is any statement, it should have been furnished to the com-
mittee before now.
Mr. Caughlan. Maybe we could identify the book.
Mr. Doyle. No, we Son't permit reading from any book.
Mr. Arens. Please tell the committee your occupation.
Mr. Daschbach. I decline to answer that question on the following
grounds, that I am appearing here under a subpena which states that
there are certain pains and penalties attached to it. I am provided
with a right of counsel.
I have certain inalienable constitutional rights which are given to
me, and I am going to claim and assert each and every one of them.
I decline to answer that question on the grounds, first, that I am
going to uphold the right of conscience and decline to answer that ques-
tion on the grounds of the most basic proposition of our Government,
of popular sovereignty, and that, as a citizen of the United States and
a citizen of the State of Washington, I possess part of the popular
sovereignty which the whole people possess.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly feel that if jôu told this committee
Mr. Daschbach. I haven't finished my answer.
Mr. Arens. Just a moment. Do you honestly apprehend that if
you told this committee truthfully what your occupation is you would
136 supplying information that could be used against you in a criminal
proceeding ? That is the issue.
Mr. Daschbach. Mr. Chairman, I am going to complete my answer.
And then I shall proceed.
]\Ir.Doyle. I want to inform 3n3u that you are not going to com-
pletemaking a speech for public consumption. You are going to
Mr. Daschbach. On the grounds, sir, of the fourth amendment of
the Constitution of the United States, which provides the American
people with certain rights of privacy.
On the grounds, secondly, of the first amendment, that Congress
has no right to investigate such matters as where I work.
On the grounds of the sixth amendment, that this represents an in-
vasion of my right of appeal, an invasion of my right under the fifth
amendment to due process of law.
I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. Wait just a minute. Which part of the fifth amend-
ment are you invoking? You had better confer with your counsel
on that.
Are you invoking that portion of the fifth amendment which enables
you to decline to give information which, in your judgment, might
honestly be used against you in a criminal proceeding ?
))
Mr. Daschbach. In answer to that question, I propose that the sub-

committee withdraw the subpena issued to me as a violation of my
rights under the fifth amendment guaranteeing me due process of
law.
Mr. Arexs. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness
Mr. Daschbach. And I hold to every part of the fifth amendment
except that part dealing with the presumption of a charge to a grand
jury.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I want to make an announcement for
the record with reference to this witness.
This witness was convicted under the Smith Act, The conviction
was, or the sentence was October 16, 1953. The matter is now on
appeal. I therefore announce for the record that I do not propose to
ask this witness any questions relating to facts or circumstances prior
to October 16, 1953.
Mr. Doyle. Very well. We will take notice of that.
Mr. Arens. Since October 16, 1953, have you been active in the af-
fairs of the Washington State Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born?
Mr. Daschbach. On the advice of counsel, I decline to answer that
question, first, on the grounds of the first amendment, that my right
to peaceably assemble with anybody is my right; it is not subject
to review by the Congress of the United States of America.
Xo. 2, on the grounds of all sections of the fifth amendment, that
the very giving of the date by the examiner, the statements made here
in regard to the Smith Act, repeatedly, yesterday and this morning,
make it clear that the Smith Act is an issue in this hearing, and, as such,
it infringes my rights under the Constitution, and my right of due
process, and my full right of appeal.
Mr. Arexs. You are appearing today in response to a subpena which
Activities ?
Mr. Daschbach. That question has already been answered.
Mr. Arexs. Thank you, sir.
And you are represented by counsel ?
Mr. Daschbach. Yes. Surely.
Mr. Caughlan. Myname is Jolm Caughlan, member of the Seattle
bar. I represented Mr. Daschbach in the proceeding which has already
been referred to, as his counsel. And I am his attorney on the case
whicli is now ))ending on appeal. And 1 repi-esent him in that capac-
ity, deeming that this situation is related to the othei- matters.
Mr. Arexs. Mr. Daschbach, do you know your counsel, Mr. Caugh-
lan, there, in any capacity other than in the capacity of attorney and
client?
Mr. Daschbach. In answer to that question, my relations with my

attorney are privileged.
Mr. Arens. Wait just a minute.
Mr. Daschbach. I do not wisli to discuss thorn.
Mr. Arens. I explicitly said do you know him in any capacity other
than tlie capacity of attorney and client.

Mr. Daschbach. And, to continue, on the basis of the first amend-
ment of the Constitution, I have the full right to associate with any-
body I wish, and it is no business of the Congress of the United States
whom I associate with.
Further on the ground of the fifth amendment, that I am entitled
to full, due process of law in my appeal, I regard this question as an
invasion, an infringement of that right, and I again ask the commit-
tee to withdraw this subpena which is in conflict with the fact that the
judiciary already has matters pertaining to this in its custody.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness now
be ordered and directed to answer the question.
Mr. DoTLE. I direct you. Witness, to answer that last question.
Mr. Daschbach. Mr. Chairman, that question I have already
answered. My answer is fortified by the Constitution and by the Bill
of Rights.
I do not forswear any of the rights given to me on appeal.
And I again ask the committee to withdraw the subpena which is in
conflict with the fact that this matter is already before the courts, it is
in the courts, and this action, by itself, is an infringement of my rights
of full appeal.
Mr. Arens. I have a report here I want to invite your attention to.
You were convicted in 1953. This report is with reference to a meet-
— —
ing in 1956 this year of the Washington Committee for the Pro-
tection of Foreign Born. According to this report that we have, John
— —
Daschbach that's you was the first speaker of the evening at this
rally under the auspices of the Washington Committee for the Pro-
tection of Foreign Born. And, according to this report, what he was
speaking about was the repeal of the Smith Act and repeal of the
Walter-McCarran Act.
Would you tell us whether or not you made that little speech before
the Washington Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born in
1956 calling for the repeal of the very act under which you were con-
victed ?
Mr. Daschbach. Counsel has declined to give me the statement. I
presume, therefore, it is a report by some stool pigeon.
Mr. Chairman, I rely upon my rights not only under the first amend-
ment of the Federal Constitution but my right as a citizen of the State
of Washington which entered into a compact with the United States
Government in 1889 by which the State of Washington guaranteed
it would never enact a piece of legislation repugnant to the Constitu-
tion of the United States or the principles of the Declaration of In-
dependence.
Following that, in the constitution of the State of Washington,
they declared that the right of petition and of people peaceably to as-
semble for the common good shall never be abridged, shall never be
abridged. I am fully under my rights under the first amendment of
the Constitution of the United States and under the constitution of
the State of Washington to petition the Government for any redress
of grievance I wish.
Mr. Arens. Of course you are. We just want you to tell us about
it. Now you just tell this committee while you are under oath,
whether or not you are now a meniljer of a conspiratorial apparatus

designed to destroy the Constitution of the United States.
Mr. Daschbach. Mr. Chairman, to make it crystal clear, I base my
position upon the sovereignty of the people, that Congress has no right
under the first amendment to try and tell people what they should
think
Mr. Arens. We are not trying to do that.
Mr. Daschbach. What they should talk about or whom they should
assemble with.
It ismy obligation and duty to defend that, and I am doing it.
Mr. Arens. Have you

Mr. Daschbach. Excuse me. I am not finished. I am not finished,
counsel.
Mr. Arens. I know you are not. Tell this committee while you
are under oath are you a member of the conspiratorial apparatus de-
signed to destroy the Constitution of the United States ?
Mr. Daschbach. The answer I was trying to make, Mr. Chairman,
was not completed.
be admonished to answer the question.
Mr. Daschbach. And I would like to ask the Chair also, in view
of the fact that section 1 of the Constitution of the State of Washing-
ton, sir
Mr. Doyle. Just a minute. Please proceed in an orderly manner.
You have had your time to make your oration, and I am not going to
grant any more time for those
Mrs. JDaschbach. Mr. Chairman, I am stating constitutional
grounds. I am not making any oration.
Mr. DoTLE. All right. Plead your constitutional grounds. But
we know the Constitution a little bit, too. You don't need to take
2 or 3 or 4 minutes to explain what each section contains. We have
it right here in front of us.
Mr. Daschbach. I rely then upon all the grounds previously stated
plus an additional ground, sir, that article I, section 1 of the Constitu-
tion of the State of Washington says that the Government is set up
with the consent of the governed and is established to protect and
maintain individual rights.
And I should like to ask the chairman to ask the counsel to respect
my individual rights as a citizen of the United States and the State
of Washington.
Mr. Doyle. You make it very difficult for me also as chairman,
Witness, because you are insisting on using this as a forum unneces-
sarily to make speeches. Now please desist in that. It is rather diffi-
cult for us to let you take time for that when we haven't allowed any-
one else. I am not going to do it any more.
Mr, Arens. Now, Mr. Daschbach, I was interested
Mr. Daschbach. Excuse me. I hadn't finished my answer.
Mr. Arens. You have given us enough answer. You invoked
everything, you said, in the Constitution.
853.33 — 57— pt. 1 58

Mr. Daschbach, I was interested in your characterization of some-

one as a stool pigeon. I have here the Communist Daily Worker in
which your name appears in an article by Abner W. Berry. This
article is "On the Way" and it tells all about John Daschbach.
Please look at this article under date of April 1954, and tell this
committee whether or not you are the John Daschbach alluded to, and
whether or not the facts recited in that article are true.
(Docmnent marked "Exhibit No. 660," see appendix, pp. 8267, 8268.)
Mr. Daschbach. Mr. Chairman, I rely upon all the answers I have
already given stating my constitutional grounds, and, in addition to
which, sir, there can be no legislative purpose served by the incoming
Congress by any answer to that question.
Mr. Arens. I want to invite your attention to still another meeting.
Recalling that you were convicted in 1953, this meeting was held in
March 1954, in Washington Hall, under the auspices of the Washing-
ton State Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born, in which it
appears that you gave another oration on the Smith Act and the Wal-
ter-McCarran Act calling for the repeal of those laws and calling for
all the folks to defend the Constitution of the United States and the
Bill of Rights by insisting that the Congress repeal these anti-Com-
munist laws.
Can you tell us whether or not you remember tliat oration you gave
before the Washington State Committee for the Protection of Foreign
Born in March of 1954 in Washington Hall here in Seattle?
Mr. Daschbach. Mr. Chairman, I have stated that, as an Ameri-
can citizen and a citizen of the State of Washington, I am protected
in my right to have any opinion I want about any piece of legislation.
If I want to agree with President Eisenhower I can do that if I want
;
to disagree with him, I can do that. The Congress has no power,

because it is forbidden by the first amendment of the Constitution, to
ask me questions about that.
Mr. Arens. Are you going to answer the question now ?
Mr. Doyle. I don't think you have stated your answer fully. If
you intend, in answer to that question, to rely on a constitutional
privilege I don't think the record is clear that you did so.
Mr. Arens. Did you attend the meeting on March 6, 1954 at Wash-
ington Hall under the auspices of the Washington State Committee
for the Protection of Foreign Born after you were convicted in Oc-
tober of '53?
Mr. Scherer, I ask that you direct the witness to answer.
Mr. Daschbach. As part of the subpena, Mr. Chairman, it states
about certain pains and penalties and
Mr. Dotle. Now
Mr. Daschbach. Excuse me. I would like to answer the question.
I don't know which question you are talking about.
Mr. Arens. We want to know whether or not you attended this
meeting on March 6, 1954, Washington Plall, under the auspices of the
Washington Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. Daschbach. On the advice of counsel, that I am now confronted
by a number of questions, I ask the committee to withdraw all questions
and state one question to me.
)
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest this record now

reflectan order and direction to the witness to answer this question.
Mr. Doyle. There is one question before you, the last question. You
heard it. I direct you to answer the question.
Mr. Daschbach. Will you state the question, sir.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, he is just parrying with us now.
I respectfully suggest the witness be ordered to answer the question.
Mr. ScHERER. He has been ordered. Let's pass to the next one,
Mr. Daschbach. Could I have the record read back.
Mr. Arens. We will go to the next question if you don't want to
answer that one.
The next question is did you attend a meeting on April 15, 1956, in
Seattle under the auspices of the Washington State Committee for the
Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. ScHERER. May I suggest, Mr. Chairman
Mr. Daschbach. May I answer the question ?
Mr. ScHERER. Just a minute. I want a little time here. May I
suggest that counsel be advised of the rule that he is supposed to advise
his client with respect to his legal rights and not tell him what to say
in response to a question. I can hear him all the way up here.
Mr. Caughlan. I must object to that. I was trying to do just
that. It seems to me — —
and I could have been mistaken that the
witness did not have an opportunity to answer the last question, and
I was confused. He is hard of hearing. I was confused as to what
question was pending, and I advised him to clear the matter up before
going on.
Mr. Daschbach. Is it the position of the Chair that I have one
question before me now, and all the questions are withdrawn ?
Mr. Doyle. No. No question is withdrawn. And you have one
question before you.
Now please answer that.
Mr. Daschbach. It is only this question.
Mr. Arens. Yes.
The question is did you attend this meeting on April 15, 1956, in
Seattle of the Washington Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born?
Mr. Daschbach. Mr. Chairman, on the basis, one, of the first
amendment of the Constitution, that Congress has no right to inquire
with whom I may peaceably assemble and petition the Government
for redress of grievances, I decline to answer that question, and also
all other grounds heretofore stated.
Mr. Arens. Maybe you could help us here about a defense com-
mittee. It is tlie Nortliwest Citizens' Defense Committee. A]:>parcnt-
ly, from what you say, it must have been a committee to defend the
Constitution. I say that with tongue in cheek also, obviousl3^
In Juh' 2, 1954, the Connnunist Daily People's AVorld has an article
in which one John Daschbach, announces the formation of a North-
west Citizens Defense Committee, and that it is now a committee of
the Civil Rights Congress for the purpose of soliciting funds to de-
fend those people Avho have been convicted under the Smith Act.
Look at that article and tell us if, after you were convicted under the
Smith Act, you formed a committee to defend people who were con-
victed under the Smith Act.
Mr. Dasciibach. Mr. Chairman, I had the assurance that the mat-
ters relating to the Smith Act were not a part of this proceeding.
Mr. Arens. You had the assurance that we would not ask you any
questions respecting any activities prior to the conviction in October
1953. And this is 1954. Now look at that article and tell this com-
mittee whether or not the facts recited in that article are true.
Mr. Daschbach. Mr. Chairman, this relates to the conduct of my
appeal. It is a matter which is within the jurisdiction of the judiciary
department of the Government. The legislative department of the
Government has no right, absolutely, to interfere and ask me ques-
tions about my appeal.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully ask the order to answer the question.
Mr. Daschbach. Further on the grounds of the first amendment,
that Congress clearly has no right to ask me whom I assemble with to
perfect an appeal, and all other grounds stated hereon.
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, so there can
be no ambiguity in the record, that this record now reflect an order
and direction of the witness to answer the question.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer the question. It is not interfering
with your appeal. Your appeal is perfected, of course. I direct you
toanswer the question.
Mr. Daschbach. Mr. Chairman, I clearly stated the constitutional
grounds of my declining to answer that question, and I will add one
more.
Section 3, article I of the State constitution of Washington, that
no person shall be deprived of life, liberty, or property without due
process of law.
Mr. Doyle. Yes. You read that before. So if you just refer to
it
Mr. Daschbach. I think it is very important because this is a legis-
lative trial interfering with my
judicial appeal.
Mr. Doyle. No it is not. ;
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest that will conclude the staff inter-
rogation of this witness.
Mr. Doyle. Any questions ?
Mr. ScHERER. I have no questions.
Mr. Doyle. The witness is excused. Thank you, counsel.
I think, for benefit of the printed record and our colleagues in
tlie
Washington and those that may be here, in view of the witness testi-
mony and other testimony by witnesses identified under oath as Com-
munist or convicted under the Smith Act, I refer to Public Law 637.
83d Congress, known as the Communist Control Act of 1954. This
is what the United States Congress said, very briefly :
Congrress hereby finds or declares that the Conimunist Party of the

The
United States, although purportedly a political party, is in fact an instrumental-
ity of a conspiracy to overthrow the Government of the United States. It
: ; — ;

<on.stitutesan authoritarian dictatorship within a republic demanding for
itself the rights and privileges accorded to political parties, but denying to all
others the liberties guaranteed by the Constitution. * * *
Unlike political parties, the Communist Party acknowledges no constitutional
or statutory limitations upon its conduct or upon that of its members.
Endof quote.
ThenI refer here to the Smith Act, which is well known, and has
been through tliese hearings part of the subject matter of discussion
as to the anti-Communist provisions thereof. Public Law 670, 76th
Congi-ess, and I read three short paragraphs so we can see what we
are getting at
be unlawful for any person
It shall
(1) to knowingly or willfully advocate, abet, advise, or teach the duty, neces-
sity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying any Government of
the United States by force or violence, or by the assassination of any oflficer of
any such government
(2) with the intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of any Government
of the United States, to print, publish, edit, issue, circulate, sell, distribute, or
publicly display any written or printed matter advocating, advising, or teaching
the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying any
Government in the United States by force or violence
(3) to organize or help to organize any society, group, or assembly of persons
who teach, advocate, or encourage the overthrow or destruction of any Govern-
ment in the United States by force or violence or become a member of, or
;
affiliate with, any such group, society, or assembly of persons, knowing the pur-
poses thereof.
I just wish to state, in closing, that we have plenty of evidence here

and elsewhere that convicted Communists are in control of polic}'' and
finances of the Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. And that
is wliat Ave are trying to bring out at this hearing.
Wehave no disagreement with the Communist Party or any other
group. They have the right to petition Congress. Congress recog-
nizes tliat right. It is a constitutional right. But the thing we Ameri-
—
can Congressmen want to laiOAV and we believe we are entitled to
—
know is when we get a petition in Congress over the names of the
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born from Seattle,
we are entitled to know the extent to which that Committee for Pro-
tection of Foreign Born in Seattle is controlled by convicted or other
identified Communists because that makes it a Commimist Party com-
mittee instead of a bona fide connnittee for the protection of foreign
born.
If the Communist Party wants to petition Congress it has the con-
stitutional right to do so. But we don't believe that any committee
or any party lias the right to petition Congress secretly and subver-
sively without disclosing their true identity and their true interests.
If Congress has to deal with people in secret without them revealing
their identity and their interest in legislation there is no way in God's
Avorld that we American Congressmen can legislate intelligently or
fairly or soundly. And I am sure any thinking American citizen will
recognize that.
One of the purposes of this hearing is to oêt on the record the ways
and means in which the Communists in the Seattle area control or seek
to control not only the Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born
in Seattle and Portland but the way the Commimist Party seeks to
control the finances of the Seattle Committee for Protection of
Foreign Born.
)
The committee will stand adjourned until 2 o'clock.

(Whereupon, at 12: 35 p. m., the committee was recessed to be re-
convened at 2 p. m., this same day. Committee members present:
Representatives Doyle, and Scherer.
AFTERNOON SESSION— FRIDAY, DECEMBER 14, 1956
(The conmiittee was reconvened at the expiration of the recess, at

2:25 p. m. Committee members present: Representatives Doyle,
and Scherer.)
Mr. Doyle. The committee will please come to order.
Let the record show that of this subcommittee of three, appointed
by Chairman Francis E. Walter of the full committee under Public
Law 601, Representatives Scherer of Ohio, and Doyle of California,
subcommittee chairman, are both personally present, and, therefore,
a legal quorum of the subcommittee.
The committee will please proceed.
Mr. Scherer. Before you proceed, Mr. Chairman, yesterday there
was some criticism of our counsel when he asked a question of one of
the witnesses as to whether he had participated in murder in connec-
tion with Communist Party activities.
I think it is appropriate, Mr. Chairman, that we introduce in the
record the front page of yesterday's Los Angeles Times. I am just
going to read a few lines from that article appearing in the Times.
There are big headlines, as you can see, across the top "Student :
Death Follows Red Design for Murder." Remember this comes from
yesterday's Times in Los Angeles.
The death last April of Sheldon .Joseph Abrams, 25, Socialist agitator at
UCLA, falls into a pattern of at least 6 well-documented Communist assassina-
tions in this country in the last 20 years, the Times was told exclusively yes-
terday.
—
Techniques varied but the motive v\'as always the same to silence someone
either in or out of the party who had too much information and no longer was
considered a good risk.
—
And each assassination whether undisguised murder or ingenious liquida-
—
tion passed off as suicide or accident served the additional purpose of warning
others who knew too much of the fate that awaited them if they talked.
This picture of continuing Communist intrigue was painted for the Times yes-
terday by Richard E. Combs, chief counsel of the State senate committee on
un-American activtities, following a 2-day hearing here into the circumstances
and significance of Abrams' death.
It was Combs' work on the Abrams case — which he tackled a few days after
—
the student's body was found that brought public disclosures this week indicat-
ing that the youtii's carbon-monoxide death could not have been accidental.
Spurred by the expert testimony at the hearing, Santa Monica Police Chief
Otto Falkner announced yesterday that investigation of the 8-month-old ease
will be reopened.
And then it goes on at great length to detail the information that

this individual had concerning Communist Party activities over the
past few years, and pointed out that the individual who was killed
had a file that in some instances was greater than that of the FBI deal-
ing with the subject of subversive activities.
(See exhibit No. 646, appendix, pp. 8245-8247.)
Mr. Scherer. I ask that the Avliole article be incorporated in the
record at the end of the testimony of Clayton VanLydegraf.
Mr. DoYi.E. It is so ordered. The first witness, Mr. Arens. Pearl
Castle. Kindly come forward.
)
Mr, DoTLE. Mrs. Castle, do you solemnly swear to tell the truth,
the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God ?
Mrs. Castle. I do.

Mr. Doyle. Thank you. Will you be seated, please.
TESTIMONY OF MES. PEARL CASTLE, ACCOMPANIED BY

COUNSEL, JAY G. SYKES
Mrs. Castle. Mr. Cliaiman, I would like to ask that there be no
pictures, please.
Mr. Doyle. Your request, I am sure, will be acceded to by me and
by the photographers.
You are now under oath.
Mr. iVRENS. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and oc-
cupation.
Mrs. Castle. My name is Pearl Castle. I live in Seattle, and I am
a housewife.
Mr. Aeens. You are appearing today, Mrs. Castle, in response to
a subpena which was served upon 3'ôu by the House Committee on Un-
American Activities?
INIrs. Castle. That is true.
Mrs. Castle. Yes.
Mr. Sykes. Jay Sykes.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Castle, do you know a lady by the name of Bar-
bara Hartle ?
Mrs. Casti,e. I refuse to answer that question on the gi'ounds of

the fifth amendment, precisely because it may tend to incriminate
me.
(Mrs. Barbara Hartle arose.)
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Castle, would you kindly look at the lady who is
—
standing there Barbara Hartle ?
Yesterday morning Mrs. Hartle swore before this committee that
she knew you as a member of the Communist Party underground
conspiratorial apparatus. Was Mrs. Hartle lying or was she telling
the truth ?
Mrs. Castle. Is that what Mrs. Ilartle said about me ?
]Mr. Arens. Yes, ma'am. Was she lying or was she telling the
truth?
Mrs. Castle. I don't think that is what the record shows.
Mr. Arens. What is your recollection of the record then?
Mrs. Castle. I think, if you will have the reporter look it up
Mr. Arens. Just answer this question Are you a member of the
:
underground apparatus of the Communist Party?

Mrs. Castle. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of the
fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Are you connected with the Washington State Com-
mittee for the Protection of Foreign Born?
fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mr, Chairman, I respectfully suggest that will con-

Mr. Doyle. May I ask the witness you were in the hearing room
:
yesterday morning, were you not?

Mrs. Castle. Yes, sir.
Mr. Doyle. And you heard Mrs. Hartle name you and testify
about you, did you not?
Mrs. Castle. Yes, I did.
Mr. Doyle. Was her testimony true or false?
Mrs. Castle. What she said about me was that she could not recall
anything about me from her own personal knowledge.
Mr. Doyle. No. I don't recall what she said, but that all she said
that you heard ?
Mrs. Castle. That is all I recall, sir.
Mr. Scherer. My recollection of her testimony was, with reference
— —
to this witness and I may be in error that she knew from party
circles rather than from her own knowledge that this witness was a
member of the Communist Party.
Mr. Doyle. Oh, I see.
Mr. Scherer. Was the information that Mrs. Hartle got from these
witnesses or these persons correct?
fifth amendment.
Mr. Doyle. No further questions.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, just a moment, please.
Mrs. Hartle, would you kindly come forward. In view of the fact
that you have been excused from your appearance here the first time,
I respectfully suggest, so there will be no question, that you submit
yourself now to an oath.
Would you kindly swear the witness?
and nothing but the truth, so "help you God, Mrs. Hartle ?
Mrs. Hartle. Yes, I do.
Mr. Doyle. Take the witness chair, please.
TESTIMONY OF BAEBAEA HAETLE

Mr. Arens. Mrs. Hartle, during the course of your experience in
the Communist Party did you know the lady who is seated at the
principal witness chair?
Mr. Arens. Did you know her as a Communist?
Mr. Arens. Did you know her as a member of the Communist under-
ground ?
Mrs. Hartle. I knew her as a member of the Communist under-
ground from reports of Henry Ruff to the underground State commit-
tee of which I was a member.
Mr. Arens. And did you, before you had the information respect-
ing her assignment to the underground, know her as a person who was
in the Communist Party ?
TESTIMONY OF PEARL CASTLE— Resumed

Mr. Arens. Now, ma'am, you have just heard the testimony of Mrs.
Hartle, haven't you ?
Mi-s. Castle. Yes, I have heard it.
Mr. Arens. Was she lying or was she telling the truth?
Mrs. Castle. I refuse to answer that question on the grounds of
Mr. Arens. Thank you, Mrs. Hartle, and thank you, ma'am.
The next witness, if you please, Mr. Chairman, will be Lillian
Eubicz.
Mr. Doyle. Will you please raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth
and nothing but the truth, so help you, God ?
Mrs. RtJBicz. I do.
Mr. Doyle. Please take the witness chair.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. LILLIAN RUBICZ, ACCOMPANIED BY

COUNSEL, DAVID J. WILLIAMS
Mrs. RuBicz. I would request no television, please.

Mr. Doyle. Your request will be observed, now that you are under
oath.
pation.
Mrs. RuBicz. I am Lillian Eubicz, 110 Eighth Avenue. I am unem-
ployed.
Mr. Arens. Is that R-u-b-i-t-z ?
Mrs. RuBicz. No. It is c-z.
Mr. Arens. R-u-b-i-c-z ?
Mrs. RuBicz. That is right.
Mr. Arens. Is it Miss or Mrs. ?
Mrs. Rdbicz. Mrs.
Mr. Arens. Are you appearing today, Mrs. Rubicz, in response to a
Mrs. Rubicz. I am.
Mr. Arens. Are you represented by counsel ?
Mrs. Rubicz. I am.
Mr. Williams. My name is David J. Williams offices in 725 Cen-
;
tral Building. I am chairman of the civil liberties committee of the

Seattle Bar Association, and I have been assigned by the bar associa-
tion to represent this witness.
Mr. Doyle. We are glad you are here,
Mr. Williams.
]\Ir. Arens. Where were you last employed, Mrs. Rubicz ?
Mrs. Rubicz. I was employed for an insurance company.
]\Ir. Arens. How long were you employed in the insurance
company ?
Mrs. Rubicz. Ten months.
Mr. Arens. Wliat was your employment prior to your employ-
ment in the insurance company ?
Mrs. Rubicz. Just doing housework ?
:
Mr. Arens. Can you tell us about your connection with the Wash-
ington Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born?
Mrs. RuBicz. I invoke the fifth amendment on this.
Mr. Arens. On March 6, 1954, there was a meeting of the Wash-
ington State Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born with
Abner Green as guest of honor, held in Washington Hall was there
;
not?
Mrs. RuBicz. I have no knowledge.
Mr. Arens. Did you attend a meeting in March of 1954 as State
secretary of the Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mrs. RuBicz. I never was.
Mr. Arens. Were you ever State secretary of the Washington Com-
mittee for the Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. RuBicz. I was not.
Mr. Arens. Were you ever an officer of that organization?
Mrs. RuBicz. I was not.
Mr. Arens. Were you ever a member of that organization ?
Mrs. KuBicz. It is not a membership organization.
Mr. Arens. How did you know that ?
Mrs. R.UBICZ. I will invoke the fifth amendment.
ordered and directed to answer the question. She has opened the door
and walked right in.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer the question. Witness.
Mr. Arens. Tell this committee how you knew that the Washing-
ton State Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born is not a
membership organization.
Mrs. RuBicz. Because it has never solicited my membership.
Mr. Arens. How do you know it has never solicited your member-
ship?
Mrs. RuBicz. Well
Mrs. RuBicz. I should know, shouldn't I ?
Mr. Arens. That is what I want you to tell us, how you know
about this.
Mrs. RuBicz. Well, I should know, shouldn't I ?
Mr. Arens. Why should you know ?
Mrs. RuBicz. Well, I am not a dumb animal.
Mr. Arens. Well, tell us why you should know about the nature of
the affiliations of people with the Washington State Committee for
the Protection of Foreign Born.
Mrs. RuBicz. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Doyle. I will make that an instruction. Witness. But may I
ask this question because I didn't hear part of your answer
Do you mean that you were never solicited to join that committee
as a member, and that is how you know that it is not a membership
organization ?
—
:
Mrs. RuBicz. That is right.

Mr. Doyle. Well, you heard my instruction to answer the question.
Mrs. RuBicz. Repeat the question.
Mr. Arens. The question is
How did you know that the AVashmgton State Committee for the
Protection of Foreign Born is not a membership organization?
You have made that assertion. I want you to tell us why, how you
know.
Mrs. RuBicz. Well, I was never solicited for any membership.
There are no membership cards. I was never solicited for member-
ship.
Mr. Arens. Well, how do you know that the organization does not
have members just because you weren't solicited for membership?
Mrs. RuBicz. I invoke the fifth amendment on that.
]\rr. Arens. I respectfully suggest, Mr. Chairman, the witness be
]Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer the question, AVitness.
]SIrs. RuBicz. I invoke the fifth amendment on this.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a man by the name of Clark Harper,
H-a-r-p-e-r?
Mr. Arens. Why?
{ The witness confers with her counsel.)
]Mrs.RuBicz. I can invoke
I invoke the fifth amendment on this.
Mr. Arens. Why?
]\Irs.RuBicz. I invoke — For the same reasons.
•
]Mrs. Arens. Do you honestly feel now, if you told this committee
whetlier or not you know Clark Harper you would be supplying in-
formation that might be used against you in a criminal proceeding?
ordered and directed to answer that last question.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer the question. Witness.
]Mrs. RuBicz. No.
Mr. Arens. Then, Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest the witness
be admonished to answer the question.
Mrs. RuBicz. I didn't understand the question.
Mr. Arens. We will start over again then. Do you know Clark
Harper?
Mrs. RuBicz. I invoke the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. Why do you invoke the fifth amendment with reference
to Clark Harper?
]Mrs. RuBicz. I invoke the fifth amendment on this.
Mr. Arens. Do you feel that if you told this committee whether or
not you know Clark Harper you would be supplying information
that could be used against you in a criminal proceeding?
. ))

Mrs. RuBicz. Yes.
Mr. Arens. Thank you. Clark Harper has advised this committee
that he knew you as a member of the Communist conspiracy. Was he
lying to us or was he telling the truth ?

Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of the staff of the Wash-
ington Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Arens. Are you at the moment a member of the Communist
Party?
Mrs. EuBicz. I invoke the fifth amendment on this.
Mr. DoTLE. Mr. Scherer, any questions?
Mr. Doyle. Witness, I have one question, please.
When you answered counsel that you knew that you had never
been solicited for membership in the Washington Committee for the
Protection of Foreign Born, may I ask you whether or not you were
ever solicited for funds, money to pay part of the costs of the Com-
rnittee for the Protection of Foreign Born even though they didn't
give you a card or invite j'ou to be a member? Did you give financial
support ?
Mrs. RuBicz, No.
Mr. Doyle. All right. Thank you.
Mr. Arens. John Caughlan, kindly come forward.
C-a-u-g-h-1-a-n
Mr. Doyle. Mr. Caughlan, please, do you solemnly swear to tell
the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you,
God?
Mr. Caughlan. I do.
Mr. Doyle. Thank you. Have the witness chair.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN CAUGHLAN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,

PHILIP L. BURTON
pation.
Mr. Caughlan. My name is John Caughlan. I live in Seattle.
I don't care to give my occupation. I will give you the reasons if
I ma3%please.
I believe that the inquiry which this committee is making has no
legislative function whatsoever. In that connection, in giving you
my reasons for not caring to answer the question, I call your attention
to the following from the New York Times of 11-14-56, November
14
Mr. Scherer. I object to anything that appeared in the New York
Times.
Mr. Caughlin. May I complete my answer ?
Mr. ScHERER. As a reason for refusal to answer.

Mr. DoTLE. Clearly, counsel, you know the rules of the committee.
And, of course, an article in the newspaper is not any sufficient reason
for vou. We want you to cooperate and not, please, take the time
to-^-
Mr. Caughlan. May I make this suo^gestion then, that this article
of the —
New York Times I notice that the committee has several times
asked that such things be incorporated as a part of the record —that
this article from the New York Times of November 14, 1956, which
gives as a general statement of the committee that its purpose is to col-
lect data for a counterattack
Mr. Arens. I respectfully suggest the witness now be admonished
to answer the question.
What is your occupation ?
Mr. Caughlan, That this
Mr. DoTLE. Please, Attorney Caughlin. Give us your cooperation.
And you are welcome to plead your constitutional privilege always,
of course, in good faith.
Mr. Caughlan. I want to. I only want to identify the article so
tliat it may be incorporated by reference into the record as indicated.
ordered to forthwith answer the question as to what his occupation is.
Mr. Caughlan. Does the chairman so direct ?
Mr. DoTLE. Yes, please.
Mr. Caughlan. I am an attorney.
tivities ?
Mr. Caughlan. Yes, I am.

Mr. Caughlan. I am.
Mr. Burton. My name is Philip L. Burton. I am a Seattle attor-
ney.
Mr. Arens. Where were you born, Mr. Caughlan ?
Mr. Caughlan. I was born in Missouri.
Mr. Arens. Where in Missouri ?
Mr. Caughlan. In Nevada.
Mr. Arens. And when ?
Mr. Caughlan. In 1909.
]\Ir. Arens. Give us a word, please, about your education, where
were you educated.

Mr. Caughlan. Without waiving the same objection I previously
made, but, instead of asserting it, and under protest, I will tell you
tliat I was educated in grade school, high school and college and in
law scliool.
Mr. Arens. Where did you go to college?
Mr. Caughlan. University of Washington, and Yale.
Mr. Arens. And where did you go to law school ?
Mr. Caughlan. Harvard Law School.
Mr. Arens. When did you graduate from Harvard?
Mr. Caughlan. 1935.
Mr. Arens. And then pick up the thread of your life, if you please,
sir, right there, and tell us what was your first occupation and where
after your graduation from law school.
Mr. Caughlan. With the same general objection I previously made,
I will state that ever since that time I have been engaged in the prac-
tice of law.
Mr. Arens. And in what courts are you admitted to practice law ?
Mr. Caughl^n. In the Supreme Court of the State of Washington,
United States Supreme Court, and the Federal courts of this area.
Mr. Arens. Have you been engaged in private practice ever since
you had your admission to the bar? Or have you been employed by
a corporation or firm or organization ?
Mr. Caughlan. With the same general objection, I will state that
I have been, for the most part, engaged in private practice.
Mr. Arens. What is the part that isn't the most part?
Mr. Caughlan. I was deputy prosecuting attorney for King
County for a period of time.
Mr. Arens. Is that the county in which we are presently sitting?
Mr. Caughlan. Yes, it is.
Mr. Arens. And when were you deputy prosecuting attorney here
in King County?
Mr. Caughlan. I honestly don't recall the exact dates, but it was in
the late thirties or early forties.
Mr. Arens. Is that an elective position here or is that an appoin-
tive position by the prosecuting attorney himself ?
Mr. Caughlan. That is an appointive position.
Mr. Arens. When did you actually first take your oath as an attor-
ney to be admitted to practice law, and in what court ?
Mr. Caughlan. In 1935 or 1936. I can't recall exactly.
Mr. Arens. That was in the State court here ?
Mr. Caughlan. That is right.
Mr. Arens. At the time that you took that oath did you, in effect,
swear to support and defend the Constitution of the United States
against all enemies, foreign and domestic ?
Mr. Caughlan. I did.
Mr. Arens. And at the time you took that oath were you a member
of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Caughlan. I am going to decline to give any answers whatso-
ever concerning any past connection with the Communist Party for
reasons which were fully set out and which I will refer to in just a
moment, calling your attention to the fact that I was tried in this city
in 1948 on the charge that I had made a false statement in stating that
I was not and never had been a member of the Communist Party, and
that, after a full and fair trial before a Federal judge and jury, I was
acquitted of that charge.
I also, in connection with any statements about that
I mean the purpose of this committee is to embarrass
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Hartle hadn't testified in 1948.
Mr. Caughlan. Just a moment. I hadn't finished my answer, sir.
Tliat in connection with that answer I was called before this same
committee in 1954 and asked substantially the same question. My
testimony at that time appears in a document published by this com-
mittee, part VIII, Seattle Investigation of Communist Activities,.
Pacific Northwest Area, June 19, 1954, commencing on page 6565 and
continuing to page 6578.
And I incorporate as my answer to the question at this time each
and every statement that was made in connection with the answer to
that question at that time, as though the same were fully set forth here.
And I will read it to you if you want, but I don't think anybody
wants it.
]Mr.Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that this witness

be admonished to forthwith answer the question as to whether or not
he was a member of the Communist Party when he was admitted to
practice law in 1935.
IMr. Caughlan. I have given my answer.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer the question. Is that the only
answer you want to give?
]Mr. Caughlin. I have given my answer. ISIy reasons set forth for
declining to ansAver are precisely the same as those I gave in answer to
the same question in 1954. That is mv answer.
Mr. Doyle. Do you now plead your constitutional privilege ?
Mr. Caitghlax. This is all fully set forth in my testimony on the
pages that I referred to of the record. I incorporate that, in full,
here. It is there. You gentlemen know what it is.
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party when you
took your oath and became a lawyer in this State in 1935 ?
Mr. Cai ghlan. I invoke in that testimony the privileges which I
felt that I had then and I feel I have now. It is the same question.
I invoke each and every one of those privileges again. And that is my
answer.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest he be ordered to
answer that question without telling us to read another book.
Mr. DoYi.E. This is 2 years later. It may be that this question is
asked you at this time with something else mmind. We may know
or we may not know or may believe we know.
I think we are entitled to ask you the question directly, Attorney.
IVIr. Arens. Were you a Communist when you took the oath as a
lawyer?
Mr. Caughlan. I have answered that question by stating the rea-
sons that I am declining to answer and giving you the specific and
basic grounds.
Now, if you want me to, I will now read, so there can be no misunder-
standing, my full statement at that time. I would like to incorporate
it in the record.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that this witness
be admonished to ansAver this question.
]\fr. ScHERER. Direct him to get the record clear.
Mr. Arens. Do you honestly apjjrehend that if you gaA'e us a truth-
ful and full answer as to wliether or not you were a member of the
Communist Pai'ty when you took the oath as a lawyer you would be
supplying information that might be used against you in a criminal
proceeding?
)
7060 COMMTJNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Caughlajst. I apprehend that this committee would do every-

thing in its power to get me in trouble.
And, so, the answer is I certainly do apprehend that you would en-
deavor in every way, if I answer that question, to bring forth the same
type of witnesses that were brought before this jury, and maybe others
that you have got in your control at the present time, and attempt the
same thing all over again. So I certainly apprehend.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Hartle, would you please stand up?
TESTIMONY OF BARBARA HARTLE—Resumed

Mr. Arens. Mrs. Hartle, you have been sworn just a few moments
Do you see this man sitting in the witness chair ?

Mrs. Hartle. Yes.
Mr. Arens. When you were in the Communist Party did you know
him as a Communist ?
Mrs. Hartle. Yes I did.
;
Mr. Arens. Do you swear now, to a certainty, that John Caughlan,

sitting in the witness chair, was a member of the Communist conspira-
torialapparatus?
Mrs. Hartle. I do.
TESTIMONY OF JOHN CAUGHLAN—Resumed

Mr. Arens. Now, Mr. Caughlan, you have heard the testimony of
Mrs. Hartle have you not ?
;
Mr. Caughlan. That is not testimony. That is a hearsay state-

—
ment. She is not under oath and she is not subject she is under
oath but not subject to cross-examination.
be admonished to answer this question Was she lying or was she tell-
:
ing the truth when she was under oath ?

Mr. Caughlan. So far as I am concerned, in my opinion, the truth
is not in that witness. I have cross-examined her at length. I have
cross-examined her at length, and I would be glad to do so again if this
committee wishes to give me the privilege.
Mr. Arens. While you are under oath tell this committee was she
lying or telling the truth when she said she knew you as a Communist ?
Just answer that simple question while you are under oath.
Mr. Caughlan. I invoke each and every one of the grounds I have
already invoked.
Mr. ScHERER. Wait a minute. The record is not clear.
I ask that you direct the witness to answer the question because he
has not invoked the privilege of the fifth amendment. He has re-
ferred to his previous testimony. He has been very clever about it.
Let's get the record straight.
Mr. Doyle. May I make it clear, Witness, we are not accepting your
reference to the answers you gave in any other hearing or any other
occasion as sufficient answer to that question. And, therefore, I in-
struct you to answer that last question.
Mr. Caughlan. This committee is fully aware of the decision of

the United States Supreme Court in Quinn against the United States.
j\Ir. ScHERER. Let's go to the next question.
Mr. Caughlan. In which a witness before this committee did pre-
cisely what I am doing and incorporated each and every part of testi-
mony taken before the committee.
I do the same here, and I stand on that, and I decline for the reasons
previously given to answer the question of this committee other than to
stand on the grounds that I have already stated.
Mr. Arens. The record is clear on your position and the admonition
on the record.
Mr. Scherer. Just one minute. I have a question here.
Witness, _you say you were acquitted on the charge of being a
Communist. Did you want to leave that impression here with mis
committee? (The witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Caughlan. I was charged, sir, with having made a false state-
ment under oath when I testifiecl in the United States district court
— —
that I was not and this was long after 1935 that I was not and never
had been a member of the Connnunist Party. That charge was fully
aired at that time, and the verdict of the jury and the judgment of
the court stands on that. And I do not intend to open it up. For
this committee
Mr. Arens. You just have opened it up.
Mr. Caughlan. To bring out Mrs. Hartle or some other blunted
tool and try the thing all over again
Mr. Scherer. Just one more question.
The fact is, Witness, that that case was decided on the fact that
the question asked you was not material, and there was no finding
as to whether or not you lied. It was merely decided by the court
in that case that the question asked you, namely, whether you were a
member of the Communist Party, was not material. Isn't that a fact?
Mr. Caughlan. I would say it wasn't a fact.
Mr. Arens. Now that you have opened this question up with this
little proceeding, at the time of the proceeding were you a Communist ?
Mr. Caughlan. I have answered the question by declining to
answer.
Mr. Arens. Answer it again.
Mr. Caughlan. By declining to answer it. I stand on the grounds
previously stated.
Mr. Scherer. The question in your trial was not decided as to
whether you had lied or not. Wasn't it decided on the basis that the
question asked you was not material ? Isn't that a fact ?
Mr. Caughlan. Well, I can't see, sir, how you are serving any legis-
lative purpose whatsoever by exploring the details of legal issues in
this trial. And I don't believe you are. I think you are trying to
bait me into some kind of an answer.
Mr. Scherer. You raised it.
Mr. Caughlan. No. I beg your pardon.
Mr. Scherer. Just a minute.
You raised the question about your trial. We didn't raise it. You
raisecl it. You said you had been acquitted of being a Communist,
acquitted of the charge of perjury. You raised that question. I didn't.
85333— 57— pt. 1 59
I just wanted to clarify this record on what actually happened

in that case. They never cleared you of being a Communist, or never
decided the issue as to whether you lied or not.
Mr. Caughlan. I think you are mistaken, sir.
Mr. ScHERER. All right.
Mr. Caughlan. But that is your opinion, and I have my opinion.
Mr. ScHERER. We will let the record stand.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a man, other than in the capacity of
attorney and client, by the name of John Daschbach?
Mr. Caughlan. John Daschbach is a client of mine.
Mr. Arens. I say do you know him in any capacity other than the
capacity of attorney and client?
Mr. Caughlan. I understood your question, and I am going to
answer it. I know Mr. Daschbach, and he is and has been for a long
time a client of mine.
My communications with him, so far as I recall, have been in
that relationship of attorney and client. But
there have been any
if
occasions, as implied by your questions that there have been, in which
I have had any contact with him other than in that relationship if, —
—
and I don't believe there are, but there may be if there are, then I
invoke, in regard to any relationship that may exist or may have
existed between him and me, all the privileges that I am afforded under
the first amendment, the fifth amendment, the ninth and tenth amend-
ments, and I don't believe your inquiry has any conceivable legislative
basis.
Mr. Arens. Now if we can refresh your recollection a
let's see
little bit. You moments ago you didn't believe you had
said a few
been associated with him except as attorney and client.
On March 6, 1954, there was a meeting at the Washington Hall
sponsored by the Washington State Committee for the Protection
of Foreign Born, all in honor of Abner Green, executive secretary
of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
Do you remember that occasion ?
Mr. Caughlan. I don't specifically, but I wouldn't doubt there
has been such an occasion.
Mr. Arens. Were you in attendance at that session ?
Mr. Caughlan. I don't recall, but I may well have been.
Mr. Arens. Do you recall being in attendance at some sessions or
dinner meetings of the Washington Committee for the Protection of
Foreign Born here in Seattle ?
Mr. Caughlan. I will have to ask you to repeat the question.
Mr. Arens. Do you recall being in attendance at a session of the
Washington Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born in March
1954, in which Abner Green was the guest of honor ?
Mr. Caughlan. I don't recall being at that particular session, but I
may well have been at a meeting called by the Washington Committee
for the Protection of Foreign Born for the purpose of speaking and
discussing certain matters that I thought might be of interest to
the public or to the committee.
Mr. Arens. Do you have a recollecion of more than one such
occasion ?
Mr. Caughlan. Oh, I think so.
?
Mr. Arens. And how many do you recall having attended and
spoken in ?
Mr.Caughlan. I have no idea.
Mr. Arens. Well, would you have attended as many as six?
Mr. Caughlan. Possibly.
Mr.Arens. Would you have attended as many as 12 ?
Mr.Caughlan. I very seriously doubt it.
Mr. Arens. Well, would you have attended as many as eight?
Mr. Caughlan. I have no recollection. And if you would say
three-dozen I can't help you out any more than I am.
Mr. Arens. Could you have attended more than one, do you believe?
Mr. Caughlan. If I am invited to express my views or opinions
on any matter that is of interest to me, and I want to do it, I do it.
Mr. Arens. Of course, you do. And we want you to do that.
Mr. Caughlan. I doubt that.
Mr. Arens. And you just tell us if you recall attending more
than one session of the Washington State Committee for the Protec-
tion of Foreign Born.
Mr. Caughlan. I have already answered that question.
Mr. Arens. Answer it again.
Mr. Caughlan. I said my recollection is I have attended several
meetings. And they may well have been
Mr. Arens. Of what organization ?
Mr. Caughlan. Well have been under the sponsorship of the
Washington Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born, in which
I have spoken on various cases involving the foreign born which I
have handled
Mr. Arens. And have you recalled
Mr. Caughlan. Just a moment.
Mr. Arens. Go right ahead.
Mr. Caughlan. ^\îich I have handled.
And I have no doubt that I have expressed my vieAvs at those meet-
ings on various asjiects of legislation relating to the foreign born.
If I speak publicl}' on that subject I very frequently do that.
Mv. Arexs. And did you speak publicly on this subject in the
course of the last year ?
Mr. Caughlan. Oh, I feel quite confident I liave.
Mr. Arens. And did jôu, in the course of the last year, speak be-
fore the Washington Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born?
INIr. Caughlan. I think so.
Mr. Arens. How many times did you speak before the Washington
Committee for Pi-otection of Foreign Born in the course of the last
year.
Mr. Caughlan. Very ie\x.
Mr. Arens. AYo\ikl you say you si)oke moie lian once t
Mr. Caughlan. I don't think that is any of your business.

Mr. Arkns. Mr. Chairman, J resi->ectfully suggest tlie witness be
Mr. DovLK. I so direct you. Witness. I tliink it is a reasonable
(juestion.
Mr. CaihmilAxN. Well, my public expression of my views on legal
cases or on tlie wisdom oi- unwisdom of |)en(ling legislation can't pos-
sibly be of any assistance to anybody in Congress or anywhere else.
?
Mr. Akens. Do you think it might be of interest to the House Com-

mittee on Un-American Activities to know what the Communists are
doing to subvert the anti-Communist legislation ? Do you think that
might be of some conceivable interest to this committee ?
(The witness confere with his counsel.)
Mr. Caughlan. I really wouldn't know.
Mr. Akens. I have a report here about one of your speeches in which
the subject matter was a little different from that which you have
been telling us about.
It is a meeting, March 12, 1955, under the auspices of the Wash-
ington State Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born, in which
you made a little speech on paid informers. Do you recall that speech ?
(The witness confei-s with his counsel.)
Mr. Arens. Do you remember the speech you made on paid inform-
ers before the Washington Committee for the Protection of Foreign
Born?
Mr. Caughlan. Not offhand. But I may well have made such a
speech.
Mr. Arens. And do you remember any of these sessions in which
the principal speaker was Abner Green ?
Mr. Caughlan. I think I have spoken at places where Abner Green
has spoken.
Mr. Arens. And where was that? Where is your recollection
Mr. Caughlan. I don't recall offhand.
Mr. Arens. Would that be in Seattle ?
Mr. Caughlan. Most likely.
Mr. Arens. And under the auspices of what organization do you
recall speaking on the platform with Abner Green ?
Mr. Caughlan. No, I have no recollection. But if you have some
information that it was under the auspices of the Washington com-
mittee, it probably was.
Mr. Caughlan. I certainly do.
Mr. Arens. How long have you know him ?
Mr. Caughlan. Oh, a number of I can't say exactly how

years.
long. I have the highest respect for the gentleman.
Mr. Arens. Do you know he has been identified repeatedly as a
hard-core agent of the international Communist conspiracy by wit-
nesses under oath who Avere not paid informers?
Mr. Caughlan. I have heard aôu make that assertion a few times,
but I have no knowledge of that.
Mr. Arens. You do not know that Abner Green is a Communist?
Mr. Caughlan. No.
Mr. Arens. Do you know with what organization he is comiected?
Mr. Caughlan. My understanding he is connected with the Amer-
ican Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born.
Mr. Arens. And in what capacity is he connected with the American
Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Caughlan. I think he is executive director or something like
that. I think he is one of the best-informed people in the United
States on the operation of the Walter-McCarran Act and, in particu-
lar, on the various court tests and court proceedings which have in-
volved that act and which have involved issues arising under that and
the Internal Security Act, and other matters involving and relating
to the foreign born.
Mr. Arens. The Smith Act?
Mr. Caughlan. I don't know anything about his knowledge of the
Smith Act. I suppose he has it. He probably does.
Mr. Arens. Are there any particular provisions of the Immigration
and Nationality Act on which he has specialized?
Mr, Caughlan. Well, I have no knowledge as to what he specialized
in. His position is one that I would think would bring him into a
good deal of contact with all phases of that act. and I daresay he is
pretty familiar with all of them.
Mr. Arens. How many times, to your knowledge, in the course of
the last 2 or 3 years has Abner Green been in this community ?
Mr. Cafghlan. I really couldn't say. I think I probably talked
to My. Green 3 or 4 times.
Mr. Arens. In the course of what period of time ?
Mr. Caughlan. If you are talking about the last 2 years, say twice.
Mr. Arens. Yes.
Mr. Caughlan. Say once each year. Maybe it was more than that;
I don't know.
Mr. Arens. You mean you talked with him on a platform or engaged
in personal conversation ?
]Mr. Caughlan. Xo, no. I mean engaged in conversation with Mr.
Green in regard to matters in which he might give me valuable
information.
Mr. Arens. That would be on matters relating to people who were
up for deportation ?
Mr. Caughlan. That is right.
Mr. Arens. And with what type of people does he specialize?
Mr. Caughlan. I believe Mr. Green
I beg your pardon. Excuse me just a moment.
Mr. Caughlan. I believe Mr. Green's interest in the foreign born
and in aliens and naturalized citizens of foreign birth is general. I
—
don't think there is I don't think he has any specialty. He may
have, but I don't know it. My interest in discussion with him has
certainly been of a general character.
Mr. Arens. Do you know of his relationship to the officers of the
Washington Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr. Caughlan. No, I really don't.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Harriet Baron ^
Mr. Caughlan. No, I don't believe I do.
Mr. Arens. Do you know Pettis Perry !'
Mr. Caughlan. No, I don't believe I do.

Mr. Arens. Can you help us? Who are the officers of the AVashing-
ton State Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born?
Mr. Caughlan. I am afraid I can't
Mr. Arens. You have been around to some of their meetings.
Mr. (Âi'GHLAN. I am afraid I can't discuss that with you. My
knowledge of any dealings of the organization involve an attorney-
client relationship.
And I will say this, that, if you are really interested in knowing it,
I think it is a matter of public record.
I think it has been referred to here before the committee in con-
nection with the pleadings that were filed in the United States dis-
trict court.
Mr. ScHERER. Then that isn't confidential on your part.
Mr. Caughlan. What has been told to me is confidential. What
is in the public record isn't.
Mr. ScHERER. Just a minute. He asked you whether you know who
the officers are.
Mr. Arens. Who is the president?
Mr. Scherer. Just a minute now, counsel.
And iust 2 days ago you were the attorney
By the way, did you draw that petition that was filed in the Fed-
eral court 2 days ago ?
Mr. Caughlan. I can tell you what appears in that file. I can't
tell you anything more. Anything more would involve
Mr. Scherer. That is what I was driving at. It is no longer a
confidential relationship.
Mr. Caughlan. Incidentally, there are a half dozen questions that
have been fired at me here.
Mr. Scherer. No, there are not. There are no questions that have
been fired at you now. I am asking you some questions.
Mr. Caughlan. Is the counsel's question withdrawn then?
Mr. Arens. No.
Mr. Scherer. No.
Mr. Caughlan. Then which one am I supposed to answer?
Mr. Scherer. The first one.
Mr. Caughlan. Could I ask the reporter, please, to read back the
question which I am supposed to answer.
Mr. Scherer. Let's just go right from here on.
My question is Did you draft the complaint that was filed by the
:
officers of the Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born that

was filed 2 days ago against this committee ?
Mr. Caughlan. I assisted in drafting it along with cocounsel.
Mr. Scherer. Who were the other cocounsel ?
Mr. Caughlan. Chief counsel was Mr. Burton.
Mr. Scherer. That is your counsel seated there ?
Mr. Caughlan. Yes. That is Mr. Burton right here.
Mr. Jay Sykes. And then, appearing pro hac vice, h-a-c v-i-c-e, for
the American Civil Liberties Union, were Paul D. Jackson and Francis
Hoague. And then there were others who assisted with advice who
I don't think appeared of record.
Mr. Scherer. In that petition, which was partially prepared by
you, you specifically state that the plaintiffs in that action were mem-
bers of the Washington Committee for the Protection of Foreign
Born.
How can you claim that that is a confidential relationship between
attorne}'ând client?
Mr. Caughlan. I don't. I said anything that is in that complaint
I can tell you anything further than that I can't.
;
Mr. Scherer. You refused to answer the question when Mr. Arens
asked you that question. Who are the officers?
)
Mr. Caughlan. I am unaware of refusing^ to answer any question.

If you will please call my attention to it I will endeavor to answer
it right now.
Mr. ScHERER. Who are the officers of the Committee for the Pi'o-
tection of Foreion Born ?
Mr. Caughlax. According to the complaint
Mr. ScHERER. Not according to the complaint; according to your
knowledge.
Mr. Caughlan. According to information which I am able to give
you and which is alleged in the complaint, the chairman is Reverend
John W. Caughlan.
Mr. SciiERER. That is your father ?
Mr. Caughlan. That is correct. The executive secretary is Marion
Kinney.
The —
other just a moment. I will refresh my recollection.
(The witness refers to document.)
Mr. Caughlan. Louise Hatten, Cecelia Corr, and Clara Paulson.
Mr. ScHERER. How many of those persons, to your certain knowl-
edge, are members of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Caughlan. Any information that I might have other than ap-
—
pears in this complaint and I am not suggesting in my answer that,
to my knowledge, any of these people are — but any information I
might have concerning their affiliations or political views or anything
of that sort are based entirely upon confidential communications which
I cannot discuss with the committee.
Mr. ScHERER. Did these plaintiffs whom you represent confidentally
advise you that Mr. Doyle and I were residents of King County, Wash.,
the State of Washington ?
Mr. Caughlan. No.
I tliink we ought to read the entire paragraph of that complaint so
we will have clearly before us what the allegation is.
Mr. ScHERER. I am not asking you to read it. I am asking you
to advise us and to answer the question.
Mr. Caughlan. Obviously I wouldn't be in a position to state to
you what my clients advise in confidence. And you, as an attorney,
are fully aware of that. But I think, if you will read the full
allegation of the complaint
Mr. ScHERER. I read it.
Mr. Caughlin. And I might go ahead and add that is the opinion
of counsel.
Mr. ScHERER. Just answer the question whether they told you that
we were residents of the State of Washington. That is the question.
Mr. Caughlan. AVell, anything that my clients (old me, as I say,
is something that is in the nature of confidential coiiunmiicat ion.
But I was going to add that it is the legal opinion of counsel pre-
paring this case that, for the purposes of tliis action and of this hear-
—
ing because it is our view that this committee is completel}' exceeding
—
any pretense of a legislative function in being here that, for that
reason, the committee can't really represent the Congress of the United
States, and that, for the purposes of this hearing, they are residents
of the State of Washington, here for the purpose of conducting this

hearing.
Mr. ScHERER. What hiw school did you say you graduated from ?
Mr. Caughlan. I have ah-eady answered that question.
Mr. ScHERER. Did they teach you that at Harvard? Any lawyer
in this room would know differently than that.
Mr. Caughlan. That isn't just my opinion.
Mr. ScHERER. All right. Go ahead.
Mr. Arens Now in this complaint, which was filed partially at your
instigation or at least by you as one of the counsel, assertion is made
that the Washington Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born
solicits and receives funds. That is in the complaint, is it not ?
Mr. Caughlan. Yes, it is.
Mr. Arens. Do you have information respecting the amounts of
the funds that the Washington Committee for the Protection of For-
eign Born has solicited and has received from the people of this area?
Mr. Caughlan. I am not at liberty to disclose any information
that I may have about that, sir.
Mr. Arens. Do you have such information?
Mr. Caughlan. I am not at liberty to disclose that. Anything
that I may have in regard to those matters are matters that are con-
fidential between my client and me. And I am simply not in a posi-
tion to discuss that with tliis committee at all.
Mr. Arens. Were you a candidate for the State legislature in 1948?
Mr. Caughlan. I have been a candidate three times. It might
—
be unsuccessfully, I might add.
It may be that that was one of the dates. I have forgotten.
Mr. Arens. And for what offices have you been a candidate?
Mr. Caughlan. It has always been, my candidacy for public office
has always been for the State legislature.
Mr. Arens. Did you at any time in your candidacy make known to
the citizenry here in this community your affiliation with any organiza-
tion which is controlled by a foreign power ?
Mr. Caughlan. My counsel advises me that that is a loaded and
leading question.
Mr. Arens. We will back up and start over. You didn't run for
public office on the Communist Party slate, did you ?
Mr. Caughlan. I certainly did not.
Mr. Arens. And when you ran for public office on the slate of one of
the major political parties were you at that time, in truth and in fact,
a member of another organization which frequently bears the label
of a political party ?
Mr. Caughlan. I was a candidate on the Democratic Party ticket.
Mr. Arens. Were you at the time you were candidate on the Demo-
cratic Party ticket, at that very time, a member of another organiza-
tion which bears the label of a political party ?
Mr. Caughlan. Well, my counsel advises me that wliat you are
trying to do here is to work out something so you can repeat this Com-
:
muiiist question that I have already said I would decline to answer,

having given you the reasons. So I have no further comment to make
on that.
Mr. Arens. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that if that is
the reason, and unless he invokes the fifth amendment, he be ordered
and directed to answer that question.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer that question. Witness.
Mr. Caughlan. What is the question ?
Mr. Arens. The question is
While you were holding yourself forth as a candidate on the Demo-
cratic ticket were you member of the Communist Party?
i

Mr. Caugiilan. That is what I thought you were getting at, al-
though you didn't say that before.
Mr. Arens. Of course.
Mr. Caughlix. I said I thought that is what you are getting at.
Mr. Arens. Tell us, please.
Mr. Caughlan. The answer to that is the same as when you asked
the question directly. By going around the bush you are asking
it directly. I am not going to —
it won't assist us any. 1 am not going
to answer that question for the reasons that I have already fully stated
when the question was asked me directly before.
Mr. Scherer. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the
question.
Mr. Doyle. I direct the witness again to answer that question.
Mr. Caughlan. I stand on my previous answc^r, including the de-
tailed statement of this matter which I have referred to and which
I am prepared to quote in full, namely, the invocation of the various
privileges that I made in connection with my 1948 testimony 1954 —
testimony, which included the first, fifth, tenth and ninth amend-
ments and various other things, and particularly
Mr. Arens. Are you at this moment a member of the Communist
conspiracy ?
Mr. Caughlan. Well, I am not, never have been a member of any

conspiracy.But
Mr. Arens. Are you at this moment a member of the Comuumist
Party?
Mr. Caughlan. No, sir.
Mr. Arens. Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Caughlan. That is the same (question all over again. I told
you I wasn't going to
Mr. Arens. Well, we will go at it the hard way.
Mr. Caughlan. If you ask me was L a member yesterday, the day
before or anything else
Mr. Arens. We are going down the line.
Mr. Caughlin. My answer is the same. I have already indicated
1 will not, for the reasons, fully stated
Mr. Arens. AVe understand. Let's do it so we get the record
straiglit, as the hiwyers say. Are you a member of the Communist
Party today ?
Mr. Caughlan. I have already answered the question.
Mr. Arens. Were you a member of the Communist Party yesterday ?
Mr. Caughlan. The same answer I have already given. I won't dis-
cuss that in any manner whatsoever,
s.-):;:!:;— 57— pt. 1 60
: —
Mr. ScHERER, I ask that you direct the witness to answer counsel's
question whether he was a member of the party yesterday.
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer.
Mr. Caughlan. On the grounds previously stated I decline to
answer.
Mr. Arens. Have you resigned technical membership in the Com-
munist Party so that you could take an oath today and swear that you
are not today a technical member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Caughlan. I suppose that appears to be a very clever ques-
tion, but it is the same one. Any way you put it, it is going to be the
the same one. My answer is going to be the same.
Mr. ScHERER. I ask that you direct the witness to answer the question.
Mr. DoYLE. I direct you to answer the question.
Mr. Caughlan. My answer is I decline to answer on each and all
the grounds previously stated. My answer will be that no matter
how many different ways you ask me.
Mr. Arens. Are you presently under Communist Party discipline ?
Mr. Caughlan. Of course not.
Mr. Arens. Were you under Communict Party discipline yester-
day?
Mr. Caughlan. I have never been under anybody's discipline. I
act on my own basis, of my own judgment, and always have.
But if this is a roundabout way of going back into this question of
whether I ever was a member of the Communist
Mr. Arens. You want to talk about everything under the sun except
communism. Have you been under Communist Party discipline at
any time since you were served with a supena to appear before this
committee ?
Mr. Caughlin. I haven't answered your question. I said that I
have never been under anybody's discipline except my own.
Mr. Caughlan. And my father's when I was a youngster.
But if this is a means of asking me whether I was in some past time
a member of the Communist Party, on all the grounds previously
stated I decline to answer.
]\Ir. Caughlan. For the reasons stated already.
Mr. D0YI.E. Any questions, Mr. Scherer ?
Mr. Doyle. No questions, Mr. Caughlan.
Mr. Arens. The next witness, if you please, Mr. Chairman, is Mil-
ford A. Sutherland, S-u-t-h-e-r-1-a-n-d. M-i-1-f-o-r-d.
Mr. Doyle. 1 think before that witness is sworn, if you will pardon
me a minute, the case of Quinn versus United States of America was
referred to, and I now have the full decision here.
I want to read one paragraph as long as the last witness referred to
this case, page 5 thereof
There can be no doubt as to the power of Congress, by itself or through its
lation. This power, deeply rooted in American and English institutions, is in-
deed coextensive with the power to legislate. Without the power to investigate
including, of course, the authority to compel testimony, either through its own
—
processes or through judicial trial Congress could be seriously handicapped in
its efforts to exercise its constitutional functions wisely and effectively.
: )
End of quote.
Now, Witness and Counsel, please.
Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothmg
but the truth, so help you God ?
Mr. Sutherland. I do.
Mr. DoTLE. Please take a seat.
TESTIMONY OF MILFOED A. SUTHERLAND, ACCOMPANIED BY

COUNSEL, DAVID 0. HAMLIN
Mr. Sutherland. I would like to request that there be no cameras
and pictures during the interrogation, without any disrespect to the
press.
Mr. DoTLE. The press is always very cooperative, and they heard
your request.
cupation.
Mr. Sutherland. My
name is Milford Sutherland. M-i-1-f-o-r-d
S-u-t-h-e-r-1-a-n-d. My
address is 702 North Fourtn in Tacoma,
Wash. And, as to the last part of that question, I decline to answer
for the following reasons
Now, in the first place, I think that this is not a genuine hearing
directed at legislation, toward a proper legislative purpose because
the committee has already come to its conclusions as indicated and
enumerated in the opening remarks of the committee chairman.
Mr. Doyle. Now, Witness, it so happens that a Federal judge,
yesterday, made a finding in court in this very case, according to the
newspapers, that this committee was here on a legal purpose.
So don't take the time, please, of the committee now in arguing
that it is not here on a legal purpose. If you are going to plead your
constitutional privilege in good faith, then do it. But don't try to
make this hearing a forum, please. We
don't have time for that. Just
go ahead and plead your constitutional privilege, whatever it is.
Mr. Sutherland. Sir, my constitutional privilege is, in the first
l^lace, that this committee is transgressing the first amendment. And
it is transgressing the rights of the people to influence legislation and
Congress. And, as such, I claim the privilege of the first amendment.
Mr. Arens. Would you hesitate there. Have we transgressed any
of vour activities undertaking to influence legislation? Could you
telfusthat?
Mr. Sutherland. There is certainly the very
(The witness confei*s with his counsel.
Mr. Arens. Go right ahead. You can consult your counsel, and
counsel is not to lead you there.
Tell us, have we transgressed on any of your activities, legislative-
wise ?
Mr. Sutherland. On advice of counsel, this appears to be a leading
question,and I therefore claim the privilege of the
Mr. Arens. There is no rehitionship between a leading question ami
the privilege. You know that.
Mr. Sutherland. I claim the privilege of the fifth amendment in
this regard. But, further, I would like to
Mr. Arens. Then we have transgressed on activities of yours which,

if you told us about them, would lead to criminal prosecution is that ;
right?
Mr. Sutherland. Sir, I would like to—I was stating my objections
^. .
to a previous question.
Mr. Arens. You go right ahead. Your objections now are to what
your occupation is.
Mr. Sutherland. And I would like to continue.
Mr. Arens. All right, go ahead.
Mr. Sutherland. Now I believe that my rights under the fifth
amendment are involved here both with respect to due process of law
and also with respect to the rights not to testify against myself.
I believe, further, that the eighth amendment is involved in this case
because I think that today in America the activities and nature of this
committee constitute a form of cruel and unusual punishment to a
large number of citizens.
Mr. Scherer. I would love to hear this.
Mr. Doyle. I will not permit you to attack the committee that way.
It is untrue. It is not a defense to the question. It is not an answer
to the question. And I am not going to permit you to give that tirade
in this hearing on that sort of bunkum. Go ahead and plead your
constitutional privileges.
Mr. Sutherland. I am in the process of it. I am not attacking
the committee.
Mr. Doyle. You are, and I won't permit you.
Mr. Sutherland. I am speaking of the results of these hearings.
Mr. Doyle. You might just as well know that, Witness. You are
through making a platform of this committee. Plead your defenses
if you want to.
Mr. Sutherland. I am further calling upon my rights and the
rights of the American people under the ninth amendment of the
Constitution which says, in effect, that all powers which are not dele-
gated to Congress remain with the people. Or I wish to correct—
myself.
The ninth amendment says that, in effect, the Bill of Rights, in list-
ing a number of rights for the American people, does not, by that
means, limit further rights or deny further rights of the people.
And it is the 10th amendment which states, as I had earlier said,
that these powers so enumerated and not specifically given to Congress
remain with the people.
And I think it is appropriate in this connection to note that tomor-
row is Bill of Rights Day, the anniversary of the Bill of Rights.
Mr. Doyle. Yes we are quite aware of that.
;
Mr. Sutherland. Finally, let me state in furtherance of my consti-

tutional reasons, sir, that, in addition to all of the specific articles
which I have cited here, I wish to stand on the Bill of Rights as a
whole, its aims and intent and purpose; namely, a spirit of jealous
defense of the rights of the people.
Mr. Doyle. No, Witness. I am not going to permit you to make
a speech on the Bill of Rights.
Mr. Sutherland. Sir, this is not a speech. That is
Mr. Doyle. Never mind. I heard what you said.
Mr. Sutherland. This is a question. I am standing on the Bill
of Rights as a whole.
:
Mr. AKE^^s. He has already invoked the fifth amendment, Mr.

Chairman. I think it is sufficient invocation to the question.
You are represented by counsel today are you ?
;
Mr. Sutherland. Allow me to finish.

Mr. Arens. Are you represented by counsel ?
Mr. DoTLE. Do not malve a speech.
Mr. Sutherland. Allow me to make one more sentence to finish
the sentence I was on.
Mr. Doyle. Go ahead. Make it a short sentence.
Mr. Sutherland. You see, in the language of the street, the Bill
of Rights is to keep people from being pushed around by officeholders
who are exceeding their authority. I think this committee
Mr. Doyle. Thank you very much.
Mr. Arens. You are represented by counsel today?
Mr. Sutherland. I am represented.
Mr. Hamlin. My name is David Hamlin. I am a member of the
board of trustees of the Seattle Bar Association, and was assigned to
assist this witness today.
Mr. Arens. I want to read to you now, Mr. Witness, a little lan-
guage. You have been reading us the Constitution. I want to read
you a little language.
This is from the Communist Manifesto
The Communists disdain to conceal their views and aims. They openly declare
that their ends can be attained only by the forceful overthrow of all existing
social conditions.
Do you subscribe to that doctrine ?

Mr. Sutherland. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. Xow, with reference to your legislative activities, you
said a while ago we were impeding your legislative activities. I want
to be sure that you make your point clear as to what we are impeding.
I have here a coalition document entitled "Coalition for Freedom
and Democracy," a report of the Washington State Committee of the
Communist Party, November 1955, in which Lenin is quoted and
Marx and Engels, on how the Communists are going to proceed legally
or illegally to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat.
(See exhibit Xo. 614, appendix, pp. 8186-8203.)
Mr. Arens. In the course of this voluminous document we see the
comrades called upon to work vigorously, legally or illegally, sur-
reptitiously or otherwise, to repeal the Immigi-ation and Nationality
Act, to repeal the Smith Act, the Internal Security Act, and other
anti-Communist legislation.
Take a look at that document and see if this is a legislative program
that this Committee on Un-American Activities of the United States
Congress is impeding. Tell us that now while you are under oath.
Mr. Sutherland. Sir, I think the asking of this question establishes
proof of the necessity of my taking my rights under the first amend-
ment, that this committee is ôing beyond its legislative purpose and is
transgressing on the right to influence the bills before Congress. And,
therefore
Mr. Arens. No, no. We want to know whether that is your pro-
gram. This is a congressional committee. Tell us. Is that your
program ? We are not trying to impede you. We want you to speak

up and tell us. Is that your program ?
Mr. Sutherland. And, therefore, I invoke the rights under the
first amendment and all my other constitutional rights.
Mr. Arens. Are you now a member of a conspiracy designed to
destroy the Constitution ?
Mr. Sutherland. That is really a loaded question, and I invoke my
constitutional rights, including the fifth amendment.
Mr. Arens. I want to invite your attention to a publication, the
Communist Daily Peoples World, an article appearing under date of
February 1956, in which you are identified in this publication as the
organizational secretary of the Communist Party.
This was public property. Anybody could read this, pick it up on
a street corner.
Look at this article and tell us now whether or not that publication
defamed you or if it told the truth.
Mr. Arens. That is the Washington State Communist Party.
Mr. Sutherland. I decline to answer for the same reasons.
Mr. Arens. Now you were emphasizing Bill of Rights Day, which
is tomorrow.
I have here an article from the Daily Peoples World of April 27,
1956, Avith reference to your participation in a May Day affair in which
there was a panel discussion bv the Washington State Communist
Party.
Look at that while I ask you a couple of questions.
First of all, in that panel discussion were you then talking about
preserving the Bill of Rights?
Mr. Sutherland. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Arens. The fact is that you were engaged there in a conspira-
torial operation to undermine and destroy this Government, were you
not?
Mr. Sutherland. You are asking a question ?
Mr. Arens. Yes, sir. And answer the question while you are under
oath.
Mr. Sutherland. It is not clear what the question is. There seems
to be doubt.
Mr. Arens. You were engaged there in a conspiratorial operation as
recounted in that exhibit which was just displayed to you. Is that
not true?
Mr. Sutherland. I decline to answer.
Mr. Arens. Do you know a lady by the name of Hartle, Bar-
bara Hartle ?
(The witness confers with his counsel.)*
Mr. Sutherland. I decline to answer on the basis
Mr. Sutherland. I have a question here. Is it sufficient for me to
say I decline to answer ? Or do I need to state
Mr. Arens. We want to know whether or not your declination is
based upon an honest fear under the fifth amendment that if you did
) )
give US a truthful answer while you are under oath you would be
supplying information that could be used against you in a criminal
proceeding.
Mr. Sutherland, Now, as I understand it, the question before me
iswhether or not I know somebody or other.
Mr. Arens. Yes. Do you know Barbara Hartle?
Mr. Sutherland. I decline to answer on the grounds of the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Arens. Mrs. Hartle, may I trouble you to stand up for this last
witiiess ?

Mr. Arens. Witness, look to the right at that lady standing there,
please.
She testified yesterday under oath that while she was in the Com-
munist Party she knew you as a Communist. Was she lying or was
she telling the truth ?
Mr. Sutherland. I wonder if the witness would come around where
I can see her.
Mr. Arens. I don't think we ought to permit this sort of theatrics
here by this man who has been identified repeatedly as a Communist.
Was this woman lying or was she telling the truth?
Mr. Sutherland. If you do not wish to accede to that, then
Just a moment.
The witness confers with his counsel.)
(
Mr. Sutherland. I decline to answer this question on the basis of

the fifth amendment, and, in saying that, where there were two other
instances I did not mention the fifth previously here a couple of ques-
tions ago, Iwant to make it clear that
IVIr. You want to back up now and invoke the fifth amend-
Arens.
ment so that the record is clear that if you did give us a truthful an-
swer you would be giving information that could be used against
you in a criminal proceeding. Is that correct ?
( There was no response.)
i>h\Arens. Is that correct ?

( There was no response.
Mr, Arens. Witness, answer the question. Is that correct?
Mr. Arens. It will be your last opportunity to clear the record.

Is that correct ?
Mr. Sutherland, Just a moment,
( The witness confers with his counsel,
Mr, Sutherland, Sir, all I wish to do at this point is to put in the
record that on those two questions where I declined and failed to
state a reason —
I believe perhaps you were rushing on to the next ques-
tion—that I wanted to state for the record that there were reasons for
that declination in those two instances, and that reason was the fifth
amendment.
Mr. Arens. Are you presently connected with the Washington State
Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born ?
Mr, Sutherl.\nd, I decline to answer for the same reason.
Mr. Arens. Where were you born ?
Mr. Sutherland. I decline to answer for the same reason.
7076 COMMXJNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
Mr. Doyle. I direct you to answer that question. It certainly is

an appropriate question. It couldn't possibly incriminate you be-
cause you were born someplace.
Mr. Arens. He is trying to figure out where he was born.
Mr. Doyle. Did you hear my question, Witness, instructing you
to tell us where you were born ? I don't know that you heard me. I
observe that it couldn't possibly incriminate you because you were
born. That is why I am instructing you to answer.
Mr. Sutherland. It is possible, before this committee, sometimes
for a question to lead to other questions.
Mr. Doyle. How could that incriminate you ?
Mr. Sutherland. And the most innocent-appearing questions are
often very loaded and lead to other questions which are incriminating.
Mr. Arens. Tell us where you were born.
Mr. ScHERER. The witness has had sufficient time. Let's pass to
another question.
Mr. DoYLE. I think the witness surely will answer that question.
We are entitled to know, as long as you were born, where you were
born.
Mr. Arens. Were you born in the Western Hemisphere or the East-
ern Hemisphere ?
(There was no response.)
Mr. ScHERER. Where does the record show, counsel ?
Mr. Arens. That is precisely why I am asking the question. I am
not certain.
Mr. Sutherland, I think the
Mr. Arens. Were you born in the Western Hemisphere or Eastern
Hemisphere ?
Mr. Sutherland. I am sure that the committee has a record of that.
be ordered and directed to answer that question. We have wasted
about 15 minutes waiting here for this answer.
Mr. Doyle. Answer the question. I direct you to answer it,
(There was no response.)
]\Ir. Doyle. No. He is going to answer finally. What was your
answer ?
Mr. Sutherland. I wish to refuse to answer this question under my
rights under the fifth amendment and other constitutional rights.
Mr. Doyle. I have always been ashamed and afraid of any citizen,
anyone who lives in the United States, that is ashamed to tell the
United States Congi-ess or the Government where they were born.
I am always kind of leery of them. I don't know why, but that is just
my experience, being 10 years in Congress.
It makes me feel uncomfortable wlien a person claiming the glory
of residence and prosperity in the United States is afraid to tell the
people of the United States where he was born. What are you afraid
of?
Mr. Sutherland. This is a common query of this committee.
Mr. Doyle. There is nothing wrong on our part in asking you where
you were born. I will instruct you to answer the question, and see
what we can do about it.
• ) )
Mr. DoTLE. Are you a citizen of the United States ?

Mr. Doyle. If you are, produce your certificate of citizenship.

Mr. Sutherland. I am a citizen of the United States.
Mr. ScHERER. You are a citizen. Are you a naturalized citizen, sir?
Mr. Sutherland. I am not a naturalized citizen.
Mr. Scherer. Are you a citizen of the United States by derivation ?
Mr. Sutherland. Xo, I am not.
Mr. Scherer. Then you are a naturally born citizen of the United
States?
Mr. Sltherland. That is right.
Mr. Scherer. Why would you hesitate then to tell us you were born
in the United States ?
Mr. Sutherland. I did not hesitate to tell you that.
Mr. Scherer. You didn't ?
Mr. Doyle. You didn't?
You took 7 or 8 minutes to refuse to tell us where you were boiTi.
I watched the clock.
Mr. Sutherland. Before this committee every question opens up
——
such an area-
Mr. Scherer, That couldn't possibly-
Mr. Sutherland. That one must be careful even of telling the time
of day to this committee, as to where it may lead legally.
Mr. Scherer. I realize your apprehension, Witness, but you are
stretching the point.
When we ask you where you were born and you are born in the
United States, you are just fencing.
Mr. Doyle. Any other questions of this witness ?
Mr. Scherer. No, I have no further questions.
Mr. Doyle. That is all from this witness.
May I say to the police and sheriffs, Mr. Scherer and I are going to
take 2 or 3 minutes to make a statement.
We very much appreciate and expect the courtesy of those that are
in the room to not leave while we are speaking.
You have all been very courteous, and we appreciate it.
We do hope and expect that it will not result in a disturbance be-
cause we are going to take 2 or 3 minutes to say something. So please
cooperate with us.
Mr. Scherer ?
Mr. Scherer. I want to say something with reference to the testi-
mony of Attorney Caughlan, John Caughlan.
While he was on the stand he voluntarily mentioned the criminal
case in which he was involved in this area some time ago, and, by his
testimony, I believe, attempted to lead the committee to believe that a
Federal court had decided that he was not a member of the Communist
Party on the basis of evidence available at that time.
I have had the record checked of that case. And that case didn't
basically involve the question as to whether or not he was a member of
the Communist Party. It did not involve solely the question of whether
the Defendant Caughlan made a false statement about his member-
ship in the Communist Party. That was the basic issue.
—
But, as I said, the question as to whether he made a false statement

as to his membership in the Communist Party wasn't the sole question
involved, because the judge said in his charge to the jury in that case
The indictment states that Caughlan was testifying to a material matter.
Ifyou find the statements made by the defendant here not material to the
Knaisky case, then you must return an acquittal.
So said the judge. So one of the issues involved was whether or
not the statement that was alleged to have been made by John Caugh-
lan was material to the case.
Mr. Doyle. Gentlemen, in the next couple of minutes this commit-
tee wants to make the closing record of this hearing, and we would ap-
preciate the courtesy of you people in not disturbing us by not leaving
for a couple of minutes. We will hurry along.
But, lest our listeners or the people who read this record get an idea
that this committee of Congress is just concerned about chickenfeed
when it comes to the seriousness of the Communist threat to our own
internal-security laws through the committee for the alleged protection
of the foreign born, or through the Communist Party, or any other
way, let me read one paragraph referred to and incorporated as a part
of a decision June 8, 1955, by the distinguished Federal Judge Leon
Yankwich of the Federal court of Los Angeles County. And this was
as recent as June 8, 1955. I will just read one paragraph which he
referred to in his decision. This is what the Federal judge incor-
porated by reference:
A Communist must be prepared to make every sacrifice and, if necessary,
resort to all sorts of schemes and stratagems, employ illegitimate methods, con-
ceal the truth, in order to get into the trade unions, stay there, and conduct
the revolutionary work within.
Now myown closing statement is this With this last session today
:
in this great city of Seattle this subcommittee of the Committee oh

Un-American Activities concludes the current phase of its series of
hearings on the broad subject of Communist political subversion and
propaganda activities directed against the internal-security provisions
of our national laws.
This series in several major cities of the United States has been one
of the most extensive ever conducted. It has afforded us the oppor-
tunity of examining the operation of the subversive Soviet apparatus
in the United States as it functions at this moment in the East, in
the Midwest, in California and here in the great Pacific Northwest.
Because of the consecutive nature of these hearings we have been
able to scrutinize the Communist Party activities and propaganda
in these various geographical, heavily populated areas, and we have
also been able to see how each relates to tile other, and all, viewed to-
gether, form a cohesive nationwide pattern of subversive, conspira-
torial, and illicit activity.
We have received a vast quantity of sworn testimony that illuminates
the operation of the Communist underground from one end of the
Nation to the other. We
have been infonned in detail about the
flood of Communist propaganda flowing into the United States from
behind the Iron Curtain and being distributed, in part, as a result of
present subsidies by American taxpayers.
That is one area in which we are going to consider the matter of

legislation.
We have been able to establish the identity of innumerable Com-
munist-front organizations actively engaged in intensive subversive
assault upon our security laws. We have seen how each of the regional
organizations of the American Committee for Protection of Foreign
Born functions as an integral component of the parent organization,
the American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born.
We have been able to determine that the American Committee for
Protection of Foreign Born and the regional organizations are con-
trolled and directed l)y the Conmiunist Party of the United States.
Here in Seattle we have been provided with an excellent present
illustration of how the Communist Party operates.
The Federal court action filed just 2 days ago here in Seattle by
the Washington Committee for Protection of Foreign Born, masquer-
ading as a group of sincere and patriotic citizens, was, in fact, planned
and instituted by the Communist Party in this area.
The sworn testimony and documentary record of bank checks intro-
duced in this hearing show that the bank account of the Washing-
ton Committee for Protection of Foreign Born was actually under the
control of persons identified under oath as Communist Party func-
tionaries.
The parade of witnesses before this committee during this past week
has been particularly instructive. We have been confronted with
men and women who have migrated to this Nation and who have re-
paid our generosity with loyalty to a foreign conspiracy instead of
the Stars and Stripes.
We have observed native-born Americans who would cast aside all
patriotism in order to serve the Soviet Union and open the way for
the conc[uest of their fellow countrymen.
Outside of this very hearing room, certain witnesses before this com-
mittee have prated of their concern for our basic freedom of speech
and political action. They have expressed great pride in the propa-
ganda they have issued on behalf of supposedly noble objectives.
But before us, a congressional committee of American Congressmen
here under authority of law, and while they were under oath, they
have refused to speak about their activities and affiliations although
they were given every reasonable opportunity.
They have, instead, taken refuge in deceit and evasion, and, while
they have provided us with little information, they have enabled us
to gage the extent of their lack of sincerity.
We do not criticize any witness who pleads his constitutional privi-
lege in good faith. But too often we know that their use of this
privilege is hypocritical and subversive.
It is a sobering picture we have received during these past days
as we have contemplated these men and women who are seeking to
defraud the people of this area of financial contributions to Commu-
nist-front organizations and enlist them in a campaign aimed at the
subversive destruction of our constitutional form of government.
While they clamor about civil rights, about justice and fair play,
and freedom of speech and of the press they actually hold these con-
stitutional values in contempt. Their single purpose is to bring an
7080 COMIVIUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION
end to all our legal defenses against the conspiracy of international

communism.
They have clearly revealed themselves not as progressives but as
the vanguard of the blackest reaction that mankind has ever known
and which today is murdering innocent freedom-loving women, men,
and children by the thousands in a foreign country, in Hungary.
While they agitate on behalf of supposedly victimized foreign bom
in the United States it is obvious that they have no real humanitarian
motive. The butchery of the people of Hungary leaves them unmoved.
They give neither words nor monej^ to aid the refugees from Hun-
gary. Instead, they attack the inmiigration and nationality law and
other Federal statutes which make it possible for us to give asylum
to thousands of these innocent victims of Soviet oppression and
butchering.
At this point I want to thank everyone who has been so helpful to
this committee here. Manifestly, you observe and we know and feel
that the work of this committee is no picnic. It is very difficult. But
it is our job to do.
I want to thank the Seattle Police Department, the sheriff's depart-
ment and the custodians of this building, including the elevator men
and women and the janitors who have to clean up after us, and the
commissioners of this great county and city. We appreciate it very,
very much.
And I want to especially thank the members of the Seattle Bar
Association who volunteered their services. They were so cooperative
in protecting their clients' rights and yet consistently making it as
—
brief as the^^ could. I couldn't help but observe, though and I don't
—
say this critically that I wonder if the Seattle bar hasn't been a little
bit imposed upon by some of these people.
In other words, if all of these witnesses claimed to the bar that they
were indigent and didn't have money to pay $25 or $50 or $75 to hire
a lawyer before this committee, it just looks to me like some of the
witnesses have been imposing upon some of the members of the Seattle
bar. I say that with utmost respect to the Seattle bar. You axe most
generous you are most capable you are most patriotic.
; ;
But it just looked to me, from the jewelry and the fine appearance
of some of these witnesses, that they have imposed upon some members
of the Seattle bar in saying that they didn't have the money to pay
for representation.
Now, in closing, I would like to emphasize again that the Committee
on Un-American Activities is not attempting to restrict the right of
any legitimate organization or individual to engage in efforts to change
our laws. Our purpose is to develop accurate, extensive information
on the activities of the Communist Party in the United States and the
Communist fronts, their methods of illegal propaganda and infiltra-
tion, and their activities against the internal security laws passed by
the United States Congress. We in Congress feel we are entitled to
know with whom we are dealing.
I wish to repeat that I am certain that every thinking, patriotic
citizen knows that we in Congress and the members of your State
legislature must know who is petitioning us in order that we might
do a fair, honest, equitable job in legislation.
The secret lobbyists, the deceptive lobbyists, the undisclosed lob-
byists are the ones that are dangerous. We welcome and invite the
lobbying and the petitioning of Congress at every level by people

who disclose their true identi1:y and their true interest.
It is apparent to us that, far from there being the need for repeal
of any existing anti-Communist legislation, there is an imperative
need for the strengthening of all existing laws so the democratic proc-
esses of this Nation may be further safeguarded against those who seek
to use them for ultimate annihilation of our constitutional democracy.
In the field of contemplated legislation this subcommittee, promptly
upon our return to our Nation's Capital, shall have a conference with
our full committee membership, and we shall, together, carefully de-
termine what legislation we will recommend to the next session of the
United States Congress.
My last word is that I v\ish to also express appreciation to all you
listeners who have been in the commissioners' room. You have been
most gracious.
And I think. Mr. Scherer, that, as a California Congressman, I want
the record to show that I think the Seattle listeners, the Seattle wit-
nesses, and the Seattle counsel, substantially, have been the nicest
group that we have had to work with on the Pacific coast. And that
means that we have had hearings in my city of Los Angeles and San
Francisco. But you are the nicest group to work with, and we ap-
preciate it very much.
The committee will stand adjourned.
(Whereupon, at 4 10 p. m., Friday, December 14, 1956, the commit-
:
tee was recessed subject to the call of the Chair. Committee members
present: Representatives Doyle and Sclierer.)
))
INDEX
Page
Abelson, Evelyn 6177, 6191, 6218,
6397-641.) (testimony), 6415, 6418, 6426, 6428, 6438, 6440, 6451
Abrams, Sheldon Joseph 7050
Adair, Chester 6958, 7015
Aderer, Clair. {See Jensen, Clair.
Adler, William 6320
Alexander, Paula 6955
Allan, Lewis 6411
Allured, Paul Johnson 6483
Alves, Bert 6164
Amacker, Louis 6577
Amter, Israel 6337
Andersen, George R 6878
Anderson, Myrna 6948, 6982-6983 (testimony) 7021
;
Anderson, Sven 6581

Andrulis, Vincent 6162, 6165, 6476, 6477
Appell, Donald T 6386 (testimony)
Armstrong, H. C 6944
Aruautoff, Victor 6924-6931 (testimony)
Arnold, Thurman 6202
B
Baharas, Ruth. ( See Heit, Ruth.
Bailynson, Belle 6298-6303 (testimony)
Bakowski, Regina. {See Rudiak, Regina.)
Baldwin, Bereniece 6485, 6519, 6540
Baldwin, C. R. ("Beany") 0213
Baldwin, Roger N «247
Bard, Phil 6447
Barnett, Arthur G 6982, 7019
Barnett, Evelyn 6305
Barron, Harriet___ 6185-6195 ( testimony ), 6217, 6354, 6364, 6405-6407, 6478, 7065
Bart, Phil 6357, 6358
Bartlett, Lucille 6612-6614 (testimony), 6616
Beachboard, Louise L 6355, 6356
Bednarz, Adam 6581, 6582
Belka, Walter 6948, 6972, 697.3-6975 (testimony)
Bendix, Gilbert 6895
Berman, Louise. (See Bransten, Louise.)
Berry, Abner W 7046
Bittelman, Alexander (Jird, 6165
Blackman, Julian 6579
Blackman, Saul 6575, 6576
Blair, Bud 6647
Blazina, Charles 6579
Blish, Myron 6571, 6572
Block, Harry 6355
Blodgett, Charles David 6921
Bloom, Rose L 6356
Booth, Wayne C 7016
Born, Blanche (5570
Bouchard, Mrs. Jule T 6314
Boudiii, Li'oiiard B (1360
Boviiigdou, Marva 6729.6790-6795 (testimony)
i
ii INDEX
Page
Bowen, Judge 7018
Bradley, Raymond J 6363
Bransten, Louise (Mrs. Lionel Berman) 6911
Brant, Carl 6646, 6647, 6651-6660 (testimony)
Brewster, Mary Jane. (See Tancioco, Mary Jane.)
Bridges, Harry 6876, 6888, 6905, 6911
Bristol, Al 6944
Brock, Robert L 6703, 6715, 6716, 6718-6720, 6742
Brodsky, Carl 6337
Browder, Earl 6211, 6618-6620, 6646, 6888, 6900
Brown, Cleophas 6920-6923 (testimony)
Buckner, Mary Phillips 6572
Burnham, Louis E 6204
Burton, Philip L 7023, 7056
Busch, Henry Miller 6379
Butler, John 6448
Butler, Nicholas Murray 6208
Butterworth, Joseph 6948
C
Caldwell, John C 6932
Caldwell, Nathan E., Jr 6553-6562 (testimony),
6564-6565 (testimony) ,6569, 6570
Cameron, Angus 6195-6198
Careathers, Ben 6444
Carle, Tillie. (See Rogers, Tillie.)
Carlisle, Harry 6703-6711 (testimony), 6729, 6733, 6736
Carlson, Anton J 6182
Carlson, Frank 6736
Carr, Sam 6189
Castle, Pearl 6955,7051-7053 (testimony)
Caughlan, John 6952, 6956, 6960, 6966, 6967, 6991, 7016, 7018, 7023,
7041, 7056-7070 (testimony), 7077, 7078
Caughlan, .John W 69.56, 7067
Chernin, Rose. (See Kusnitz, Rose.)
Clark 6574
Clott, Lillian 7022
Cluster, Don 6976
Cobb, David 6238, 6239
Cohen, Elizabeth Boggs 6944, 7008
Cole, Lester 6625
Colloms, Albert L 6195-6203 (testimony)
Combs, Richard E 7050
Connelly, Philip 6647
Conrad, Mabel 6948, 6963
Copass, Michael K 7016
Corr, Cecelia 6952, 6953, 6991, 7018, 7067
Cortor, William 6625, 6626
Criley, Dick 6573
Crocket. George W., Jr 6460, 6478, 6502, 6517, 6522, 6.529. B543
Cronin, Kathleen. (See Ruuttila, Julia.)
Cross, Ephraim 6198
Cummings, Robert 6948, 6995-^999 (testimony)
Cunningham (E. Luther) 6310
Cvetic, Matthew 6235, 6418, 6424, 6426, 6430-6433
Czaniowski, Anzelm (alias Steve Czerwin) 6.547.
6562-6585 (testimony), 6596, 6597
Czenviu, Steve. (See Czarnovvski, Anzelm.)
D
Damon, Frances MacKinnon (formerly INIrs. Herbert Williams) 6263-
6274 (testimony)
Dasehbach, John 6948, 7041-7048 (testimony), 7062
Davis, Benjamin J 6211
INDEX iil
Page
Davis, David 6374, 6375, 6430
Deariufier, O. L 6948
Decavitch, Victor 6278, 6279
DeJonge, Dirk 6970, 6976-6977 (testimony)
DeLacy, Hugh 6534, 6947
Delaney, Tliomas 6363
Dellekauip, Paul 6579
DeMaio, Eruest 6583, 6596-6602 (testimony)
Dennett, Eugene 7008
Dennis, Eugene 6231
Derman, Sol 6623
Dietze, George E 6424, 6425, 6432, 6433, 6440
Dobbs, Zygmuud 6142, 6143, 6153
Dodd, Bella 6229
Doll,Tracy 6523
Dolsen, James 6407, 6444
Donner, Frank 6360
Doran. Lillian 6172, 6710, 6847-6851 (testimony)
Doyle, Charles , : 6165, 6738
Doyle, Miriam 6300
Drake, Nadine 6523
Draper, Muriel 6164
Drew, Katherine 6573
Dreyfus, Benjamin 6896
Du Bois, W. E. B 6196
E
Easter, Ed 6572
Eaton, Julia. ( See Ruuttila, Julia.)
Edwards, Carmen 6724
Eisler, Gerhart 6165, 6534, 6658, 6659
Eisler, Mrs. Gerhart 6659
Ellis, Milliard 6570
Erikson, Alma 6612, 6615-6617 (testimony)
F
Fairchild, Mildred 6356
Falkner, Otto 7050
Fanaru, Harry 6499
Fantz, James S 6979-6981 (testimony)
Fast, Howard 6271
Figueiredo, Eulalia 6165
Fisher, A. A 6948
Fisher, Leroy 6217
Fishman, Alvin 6519
Fishman, Margaret (Mrs. Alvin Fishman; nee Radulovich) 6480,
6500, 6517-6522 ( testimony ) 6.i29 ,
Fishman, Moe 6448, 6449, 6450

Flaxer, Abram (Abi'aham) 6417
Fleischer, Louis 6229
Fletcher, Jess 6944
Foley, Alma 6607-6612 (testimony), 6613
Foran, Frank 6574
Forer, Joseph 6154, 6172, 6185, 6195, 6203, 6297, 6349
Forschmiedt, Kachmiel 6948, 6970, 6971-6972 (testimony)
Fougerouse, John 6168
Fowler, Kleancn- 6354
Freed, Emil 6725
Freed, Tassia 6725
Freedman, Dave 622^)
Fi'iedman, Milloii H 62(53, 6280
Fritchman, Sterihen H 6164, 6808-6819 (testimony). 6S2.S,' 6842
Funn, 1 >or(ithy. (»S'rc Swan, Dorotliy.)
85333 — 57— i)t. 1 61

) )
It index
a
Page
Gabow, Frances (formerly Jaffe) 6371-6376 (testimony)
Gallo, John 6479
Ganley, Anna 6475
Gannett, Betty 6189
Gates. John 6231, 6450
Gates, Michael (J351, 6371
Geiser, Ruth. ( See Heit, Ruth.
Gellert, Hugo (born Hugo Greenbaum) 6229, 6326-6332 (testimony) 6335 ;
George, Al 6577
Gibson, Lolita 6737
Gladnick (Robert) 6448, 6450
Gladstone, Charles (also known as Charley Young) _ 6648, 6667-6674 (testimony)
Glatis, James 6166, 6167
Glenn, Al 6579, 6580
Glover, Ray 6948, 6992-6995 (testimony)
Goddard, Howard 6690, 6754-6756 (testimony)
Gold, Michael 6330
Goldblatt, Louis (also known as Lewis Miller) 6453,
6878-6889 ( testimony ), 6933
Goldner, Sanford 6648, 6678-6691 (testimony)
Goodman, Morris 6756-6762 (testimony)
Gowgiel, Florence 6571, 6574
Graham, Shirley 6204
Green, Abner (born Abraham Greenberg) 6149,
6150, 6152-6185 (testimony) 6188, 6200, 6201, 6207, 6208, 6221,
;
6228, 6241, 6243, 6261, 6277, a384, 6390, 6402, 6403, 6411, 6420, 6423,
6478, 6517, 6548, 6556, 6591, 6638, 6714, 6724, 6824, 6826, 6876, 6891,
6893, 6894, 6953, 6962, 7036, 7062, 7064, 7065.
6580
Green, Al
Green, Gil
G reenbaum, Hugo. ( See Gellert, Hugo.
— 6580, 6581, 6599
Greenberg, Abraham. {See Green, Abner.)

Grossman, Aubrey 6152, 6889, 6896-6915 (testimony) ;
6929
Grossman, Saul 6217,
6460-6492 (testimony) : 6496, 6503, 6509, 6510, 6529
Guthman, Ed 7019
Haaland, Norman 6999, 7037-7040 (testimony)

Hagen, Uta 6171. 6299
Hall, Martin 6854-6858
Hall, Ralph 6955
Halonen, Oiva 6948
Hamlin, David O 7015, 7071
Hancock, Stanley B 6890, 6891
Hardin, Reuben J 6398 6418, 6436
Harper, Clark 7055, 7056
Harris, Marie Richardson 6732
Hart, Pearl M 6216, 6.585, 6607, 6617, 6621
Hartle, Barbara 6943-6950 (testimony) ;
6952-6956 (testimony) 6962, 6971, 6972, 6974, 6982, 6987, 6988, 6992,
;
6996, 7001, 7005, 7051-7053 (testimony) 7058, 7060, 7061, 7074, 7075
;
Harvey 6448
Haslam, (A. Herbert) 6356
Hathaway, Clarence A 6617-6621 (testimony)
Hathaway, Milton 6619
Hatten, Louise Seifried 6952, 6991, 7018, 7019-7023 (testimony) 7067 ;
Heikkila, William 6867, 6872, 6914-6920 (testimony)

Heist, A. A 6729
Heit, Ruth (nee Geiser; also known as Ruth Baharas) 6585-6-596 (testimony)
Helmuth, Joseph 6581, 6583
Henrickson (Stanley William) 7016
Herman, Irving 6580
Herriott, (Clarence Dillaway) 6893
INDEX V
Page
Hill, Charles A 6478, 6499, 6500, 6522-6529 (testimony) ; 6531, 6532
Hill, Dickson P 6898
Hillsgrove, Ruth E — __ ^ 6366
Hirning, Ed 6577
Hiss, Alger 6930
Hoague, Francis — 7023, 7066
Holmgren, Roderich 6990
Holmgren, Mrs. Roderich 6990
Honig, Bessie 6898, 6899
Hood, Frances 6370
Horowitz, Charles 6971, 7015
Howard, Loa 7027
Howard, Vincent 7003, 7004, 7035-7036 (testimony)
Hubbard, Gobel 6570, 6571
Huff, Henry P 7019
Huggins, Roy — 6693, 6694
Hughes, John 6900
Hunton, (William) Alphaeus 6204
Hyndman, Katharine 6169
Hyun, Alice — 6845
Hyun, David 6710, 6711-6718 (testimony) 6729, 6736, 6741, 6760, 6845
;
Hyun, Mary H. (Mrs. David Hyun) 6836, 6840, 6845

Hyun, Peter 6729,6838-6847 (testimony)
Ilchuk, Frank Humphrey 6217, 6256-6263 (testimony)

Iwinski, Walter 6583
Jackson, Paul D . 7066

Jafle. Gabow, Frances.)
(iSee
James, Burton 6948
James, Florence Bean 6948
Janchenko, Anthony 6572
Jasinski, Eugene 6583
Jeffers, Dorothy M 6924, 6925
Jenkins, Edith 6871
Jensen, Clair (nee Aderer) 6889-6895 (testimony)
Jerome, V. J 6125, 6328
Johns, Beatrice 6572, 6574
Johnson, Allen. (See McNeil, Allan D.)
Johnson, Hewlett 6814
Johnston, Harold 6948
Jones, Alec 6166, 6187, 6217, 6292-6298 (testimony) 6305 ;
Jones, Claudia 6163-6165

Jones, Mona (Mrs. Alec Jones nee Schneider)
; 6303-6306 (testimony)
Juditz, Paul. {See Yuditch. Paul.)
Jurich, Joseph 6947
K
Kaeser, Frank 6572
Kandall, Terry 6577
Kaplan, Seymour 6297
Keller, James 6296, 6557, 6568, 6593, 6594
Kenny, Robert W 680S
Kheifets, Gregori 6910, 6911
Kimple, William 6656, 6657
King, Carol ^ 6167, 6478
Kingdon, Frank 6244
Kinney, Marion 6947, 6952, 6953, 6955, 6956, 6958-6967 (testimony) ;
6991, 6998, 7018, 7022, 7067

Kline, Joseph 6763
Klinger, Ed 6575, 6578
vi INDEX
Pas«
Koch, Ray 6579
Koriiacker, Mildred 6551
Koshel, John 6572
Krumbein, Margaret 6338
Kusiiitz, Rose (nee Chernin) 6172, 6485, 6763-6772 (testimonv) ;
6815, 6821-6831 (testimony) 6834, 6836

;
L
Lambert, Walter 6871
Lampell, Millard 6625
Land, Jerome 6725, 6773-6784 (testimony)
Landon, Herman R 6736, 6740
Landy, Avro 6228, 6241
Langer, Verna 6730, 6731, 6733
Larsen, Karley 6947, 6974\ 6975', 7008
Lautner, John 6178-6170
(testimony) 6181, 6188-6189 (testimony) 6190, 6225-6233 (testi-
: ;
mony) 6234, 6239-6241, 6250, 6251, 6272, 6273, 6329, 6337-6339

;
(testimony) 6618. ;
Lawrie, John ^ 6955

Lazarus, Emma 6472, 6604, 6605
Lehman, Fred 6317
Leirioh, Karl 6577
Lenhart, Jennie 6236
Lent, Berkeley 6969, 6977, 6979, 6999, 7001, 7024
Leonard, Norman 6866, 6924
Lesser, Sarah Hortense 6955, 6984^6991 (testimony)
Leutchman, Dolores. (See Storich, Dolores.)
Levitan, A. Harry 6307,
6318-a320, 6349-6362 (testimony) 6357, 6364-6366, 6371
;
Lewis, Ed 6579
Lewis, Helen 6218, 6602-6607 (testimony)
Lightcap, Rose. {See Nelson, Rose.)
Lima, Mickey 6900
Linn, Ethel 6851-6854 (testimony)
Llorca, Louis 6.577
Logan, Thomas 6310
Loughry, Wilhelmine 6895
Lowe, Lawrence 6896
Lowell, Frank 6406
Ludel, Leonard 6742-6746 (testimony)
Lundgren, Lee 6547
Limdt. Roy 6825
Lym, La Verne ' 6891
M
Maddox, Edward C 6674
Madsen, Joe 6580
Malbin, Barney 6970
Mally, Emma Louise 62.50-6286 (testimony)
Manewitz, Fanny (Mrs. Sam Manewitz) 6622, 6624
Manewitz, Sam -__ 6622, 6624
Mankin, Joseph L 6409, 6435, 6436, 6440
Mao Tse-tung 6839
March, Herbert 6.567
Marczewski, Edmund 6577
Margolis, Ben 6727, 6728
Markward. Mary Stalcup 6222
Marshall, Daniel G 6831, 6854
Marzani, Carl 6247-6255 (testimony) ; 6329, 6481
Max, Alan i 6625
Mazzei, Joseph 6418, 6424, 64.30-6433
McCormick, Emmett 649S, 6500
1 Misspelled Karly Larsen in these references.
- Incorrectly spelled Veru Lym in this reference.
INDEX vu
Page
McDonald, James t>572
McMurray, Lloyd E (>914
McNeil. Allan D. (also known as Allen Johnson) 6409,
6438,6441-6455 (testimony)
McTernan, Anne Perpich 6799-6807 (testimony) 6826, 6S27
;
McTernan, John Trip <jyll

Medina, Harold 6975, 6997
Metcalf, C. M 6527
Meyers, Irving 6596
Mickenberg 6448
Mikkelsen, Harold M 6485
Milgrom, Sam 6262, 6276, 6528
Miller, Lewis, (-b'ee Goldblatt, Louis.)
Miller, Marion 6760-6762
Miller, Tom 6411
Millet, Martha 6625
Mills, Nathaniel 6367
Milos, Bogdan 6579
Minor, Robert 6331, 6332
Mitchell, Walter A 6172, 6173, 6815, 6S18
Moore, Richard B 6163
Morasaka, John 6184
Morgan, John 6900
AIncchio, Frank 6579
Mudrak, John 6572
Mulzac, Hugh 6286-6291 (testimony)
Murphv, George B., Jr 620.3-6218 (testimony), (i219, 6220
Murrish, William B 6633, 6790, 6799
Musil, Charles 6228, 6233-6238 (testimony)
^Nlusmanno, Michael 6433, 6434
N
Nathan, Otto 6197, 6360
Needleman, Isidore G 6218,
6221, 6233, 6256, 6286, 6292, 6303, 6326, 6340
Negin, Anna 6740
Nelson, Burt 6939-6945 (testimony)
Nelson, Pete 6165
Nelson, Rose (Mrs. Harry Raymond also known as Rose Nelson Liglitcap) _ 6170,
;
6223, 6295
Nelson, Steve 6191, 6250, 6406, 6407, 6444, 6449, 6450, 6900, 6911
Nichols, Charles 6949
Nixon, Richard M 6930
Nixon, Russell 6274-6280 (testimony) 6714 ;
Novick, Irving 6158, 6228, 6238-6247 (testimony)

Novick, Paul 6167, 6253
Nowak, Stanley 6369, 6472, 6484, 6499, 6523, 6529-6542 (testimony)
O
O'Connell, Jeremiah Joseph (Jerry) 6949
Okal, Sam 6577. 6580
O.ssip, Constantine 6217, 6218, 6332-6337 (testimony)
Owen. Homer 6976, 6978, 7002
Palka, Selena (Mrs. Walter Palka) 6567, 6582, 6583

Palka, Vvalter 6568, 6581, 6582
Parnshiades, Themistokles 6471, 6472
Parnall, Stanley R 6318
Parris, Nina 6363-6365 (testimony)
Partridge, Grace (Mrs. Irving Partridge! 6170, 6866-6876 (testimony) 6895 ;
Patterson, William L 6152, 6229, 6301

Paulson. Clara 6952, 6953, 6991, 7018, 7067
Pennock, William J 6949
Perpich, Anne. (See McTernan, Anne.)
viil INDEX
Pag«
Perry, Pettis _- 7036, 7065
Persiley, Bernard 6573
Petrofsky, Stella 6317 '
Petty, Arthur 6572
Petty, Ernest 6572
Petty, Leon 6572
Petty, Roy 6572, 6574
Philbrick, Herbert 6367
Phillips, Herbert J 6949
Plesko, Andy 6571
Podolner, Gill 6576
Podolski, Henry 6162, 6165
Polich, John 6577
Polich, Marion 6577
Polich, Mary (Mrs. Marion Polich) 6577
Pontes, Gus . 6470, 6472
Poll, Harry 6578-6580
Polonsky, Abraham 6625
Porter, John W 6651, 6660, 6667-6670,
6697-6699, 6703, 6711, 6724, 6725, 6754, 6763, 6821, 6838, 6847
Poskonka, Joseph 6568
Potash, Irving 6534
Pozzi, Frank H 6969, 6977, 6979, 6999, 7001, 7024
Pratt, Morris 6577
Pribatek, Arlin 6572
Purnam, Dwight F 6318
Puskarie (Piiskarich), Ed 6579
Putnam, Harold L 6143
R
Rabbitt, Thomas C 6949
Rabinowitz, Victor 6197
Radulovieh, Milo 6520, 6521
Ramsey, Walter W 6597
Randies, Anthony V 6711
Raskin (Jack) 6523
Rein, David 6297
Reinstein, Carl 6174
Reuther, Walter 6580, 6984
Rhee, Syngman 6283, 6716
Richardson, Esco L 6892
Richter, Edna 6355
Riemer, Mortimer 6202
Robeson, Paul 6204, 6271, 6290
Robinson, Cyril 6612, 6615
Robinson, Marguerite 6729, 6831-6834 (testimony)
Rogers, Jane 6550
Rogers, Tillie (nee Carle) 6162,6547-6551 (testimony), 656.8
Rogers, William P 6722
Rogge, O. John 6311
Roine, Andrew 6611
Roosevelt, Archibald B 6142-6153 (testimony), 6179, 6180, 6250, 6251, 6278
Rosenberg, Dave 6367
Rosenberg, Rose S 6172, 6756, 6784, 6828, 6837, 6851
Rosser, Louis 6798, 6878, 6879, 6882, 6885. 6898
Rotenberg, Sol 6307, 6309-6325 (testimony) 6349, 6354, 6361, 6362
;
Rothenberg, Don 6325

Rothstein, Ida 6872
Rubicz, Lillian 7053-7057 (testimony)
Rubino, Al 6578
Rudiak, Joseph 6434-6441 (testimony)
Rudiak, Regina (Mrs. Joseph Rudiak; nee Bakowski) 6439
Rudich, Stephen J 6447
1 Incorrectly spelled Petrosky in this reference.
INDEX Ix
Page
Ruff, Heuiy 7052
Kupp, John M 6989,7004,7015
Russell, Rose V 6196, 6198, 6228-6230
Ruthenberg, Charles E 6146
Ruuttila, Josephine. (Sec Ruuttila, Julia.)
Ruuttila, Julia (Mrs. Oscar Ruuttila; also known as Kathleen Ruuttila,
Josephine Ruuttila, Julia Eaton, Kathleen Cronin) 7024-7034
Ruuttila, Kathleen (See Ruuttila, Julia.)
Ruuttila, Oscar 7030
Ruzich, Nick 6579
Samuels, Allen 6579

Santes, Gus. (See Tsantes, Gus.)
Santo, John 6165
Sartisky, Jack 6419
Scattergood, J. Henry 6319
Schaffer, Mitchell W 6319
Schemanske, Stephen J 6488-6501 (testimony);
6506, 6507, 6518, a531, 6532, 0543, 6546
Schlesinger, Hymen 6377, 6391, 6397, 6414, 6424-6434 (testimony), 6441, 6445
Schniiess, John 6579, a580
Schneider, Anita 6699 (testimony) ;
6710, 6713, 6722-6742 (testimony) ; 6749, 6791, 6792, 6794, 6800, 6832, 6839
Schneider, Mona. {See Jones, Mona.)
Schneiderman, William 6649, 6898, 6900
Schoichet, Nathan L 667S
Schroetter, Charles Heintz 6576
Schweppe, Alfred J 7016
Scott, B. L 6319
Scribner, David 6298, 6299
Seder, Morris 6410
Sefton, Lawrence 6969-6970 (testimony)
Senk, Doris 6259, 6264
Sennett, William 6579
Seiitner, Antonia (Mrs. William Sentner) 6170
Sentner, William 6387
Sergo, Ray 6579
Shandler, Esther 6784-6790 (testimony)
Sheppard (Professor) 0523
Shermls, Celia 6724, 6726
Ship, Reuben ^ 6740
Shrank, Norman 6189
Silva, Adele Kronick 6852, 6853
Silver, Max 6657, 6761, 6762
Simpkins, Modjeska 6204
Sindell, David I 6390
Siuba, Cazimir 6568, 6583
Smith, Delphine Murphy 6633-6646 (testimony) 68:^6
;
Smith, Edna 6648

Smith, Ferdinand C 6163, 6165, 6190, 6289, 6534, 6598, 6610
Smith, J. N 6191
Smith, Louise Pettibone 6217,6485,6507,6509
Sobel, Harry 6568, 6569
Sparks, Nemmy 6647
Si)ector, Marjorie 6158, 6243
SiK'iser, Lawrence 6920
Starcevic, David 6725, 6727, 672S
Starcevic, Miriam (Mrs. David Starcevic) 6725, 6727, 6728, ()739
Starks, John R 6621-6626 (te.stimony)
Starr, Edward 6568
Starr, Vicki (Mrs. Edward Starr) 6568
Steinberg, Bessie 6414-6424 (testimony) 6426, 6438
;
Steinberg, Irving G 6547, 6553. 6602

Steinberg, M. Y 6391-6397 (testimony)
X INDEX
Page
Steinmetz, Harry 6730
Stevenson, Janet 6691-6697 (testimony)
Stevenson, Miriam 6736, 6741
Stone, I. F 6360
Storich, Dolores (nee Leutchman) 6500, 6543-6546 (testimony)
Strange, Dorothy S 6219, 6220, 6221-6223 (testimony)
Strong, Edward 6219
Sunoo, Harry 6949, 7008
Sutherland, Milford 6955, 7071-7077 (testimony)
Sutton, Olive 6262, 6368
Swan, Dorothy Funn_ 6204, 6218-6220 (testimony)
Sweet, Sam 6165
Sxucky, Zoltan 6236
Sykes, Jay G 6973, 6984, 6992, 6995, 7023, 7035, 7037, 7051
T
Tancioco, Marv Jane (Mrs. Ramon Taneioco ; nee Brewster) 6977-
6979 (testimony)
Taylor, Daniel 6891
Taylor, Valerie Lee 7001-7003 (testimony)
Terrazas, Irene 6837-6838 (testimony)
Thomas, Herman 6312,
6324, 6325, 6350 (testimony) ; 6351, 6352 (testimony) ; 6358, 6365,
6372-6373 (testimony).
Thompson, Ray 6900
Thompson, Robert 6347, 6450
Thomson, Winnie 6949
Todd, Victor 6999
Togliatti, Palmiro 6449
Tonini, Fred '
_'__ 6578
Treffman, Mildred 6549
Treuhaft, Decca 6871
Tsantes, Gus 6408, 6410, 6419
Turner, Jeanette Stern 6339-6349 (testimony)
Turner, Robert 6576
Tyler, Jerry 6949
U
Uhrin, John 6648,6660-6665 (testimony)
Unger, Abraham 6229
Van Leuven, Josephine (nee Yanez) 6217, 6697-6703 (testimony) ; 6836

VanLydegraf, Clayton 6955,7004-7014 (testimony) ; 7050
Vauirhn, Luther 6572
Vonderlack, Leonard 6579
Vrba 6235
W
Wallace, William 6949
Weber, Dorothy 6593
Weinstock, Louis 6217
Wellman, Mignon Peggy (Mrs. Saul Wellman) 6470,
6474, 6500, 6502-6517 (testimony) 6529 ;
Wellman, Saul 6450, 6500, 6510

Wereb, Stephen A 6641-6642 (testimonv) ; 6643,6644,6646-6650 (testimony) ;
6653, 6654, 6661, 6668, 6675, 6681, 6683-6685

West, Don 6282
Westman, Lenus 6954, 6963
Wheeler, William A 6951-6952 (testimonv)
Whitley, Frank J 6649,6674-6678 (testimony)
Wildman, Leonard 6944
Wilkinson, Frank 6730,6747-6753 (testimony)
Williams, David J 7015, 7053
INDEX xi
Williams, Frances Damon. (See Damon, Frances MacKinnon.) Page

Williams, Fred 6470, 6471
Williams, Herbert 6263
Williams, Mrs. Herbert. {See Damon, Frances MacKinnon.)
Williamson, John 6165
Wilson, Charles 6575
Wirin. A. L 6669, 6747, 6763, 6821
Woody, Tliomas 6319
Wright, Alex 6327, 6356, 6396, 6397
Wright, John 6570
Yanez, Josephine. {See Van Leuven, Josephine.)

Yanish, Nat 6867, 6872, 6873, 6895
Yankwieh (Leon K.) 6722, 6951, 7078
Yarnall, Anna 6319
Yates, Oleta O'Connor 6329, 6708
Young, Charley. {See Gladstone, Charles.)
Young, Cone C 6795-6799 (testimony)
Young, Martin 6170, 6736, 6927
Young, S.vlvia 6836
Yuditch, Paul (also spelled Juditz) 6167, 6168
Z
Zazrivy, Elsie 6377-6391 (testimony)
Zucker, Jack 6365
Organizations
Abraham Lincoln School 6571
Alex Bittelman Defense Committee 6165
All-Slav Congress, United States 6226
Alliance, Inc., The 6143, 6144, 6147
American Civil Liberties Union 6241,6242,7066
Northern California 6861, 6863
American Coalition of Patriotic, Civic and Fraternal Societies 6143
American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born 6146,
6148-6152, 6154, 6155, 6185, 6190, 6207, 6216, 6227, 6235, 6293. 6394,
6456, 6534, 6569, 6591, 6605, 6626, 6628, (5632, 6862, 6877, 6950, 6956,
6982, 6998, 7024, 7062, 7079.
American Foundation. {See Foundation of America.)
American Labor Party 6197
American League Again.st War and Fascism 6343
American Peace Crusade 6169, 6601, 6(U2, G983
American-Polish Committee for Protection of Foreign Born (Detroit) {see
also Polish-American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born 6169, 6298
American-Russian Fraternal Society 61(58, (5:'.34
American Russian Institute of San Francisco 6874

American Women for Peace 6284, 6285, 6302
American Youth for Democracy 6493
American- Yugoslav Committee for Protection of Foreign Born 6396
New York Chapter 6162, 6165, 6168, 6298
Americans for Democratic Action 6148, 6278
Andrulis Defense Committee. {See Vincent Andrulis Defense Com-
mittee. )
Antonia Sentner Defense Committee (St. Louis, Mo.). {Sec entry under
Electrical, Radio, and Machine Workers of America, United, District 8.)
April Farms (Penn.sylvania) i (3374
Armenian Progressive League, The 6168
Astoria Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born 7028
Automobile, Aircraft, and Agricultural Implement Workers of America,
United 6085
Local .51 (Detroit), Sam Sweet Defense Committee 6165
Local 208, Fred Williams Defen.se Committee 0470
Local 719 6580, 6581
xii INDEX
Page
Bay Area Council Against Discrimination 6905
B'nai B'rith 6761, 6762
Book Fair Committee 6284
California Legislative Conference (Los Angeles) 6731
California State Federation of Labor 6888
Cannon Electric Co 6640
Charles Doyle Defense Committee 6165
Chicago Council of Soviet- American Friendship. (See National Council
of American- Soviet Friendship, Chicago Council.)
Chicago Jewish Committee for Protection of Foreign Born 6569, 6593
Chicago Labor Defense Committee 6163
Chopin Cultural Club (Chicago) 6566, 6569, 6579, 6581-6583
Citizens Committee to End the Stool Pigeon Racket (Pittsburgh, Pa.) 6430
Citizens Committee to Preserve American Freedoms 6729, 6730, 6750, 6751
Citizens Committee to Secure Bail for Martin Young (see also Committee
for the Freedom of Martin Young) 6927
Citizens Emergency Defense Conference (New York City) 6182, 6290
Civil Rights Congress 6125, 6156, 6168, 6229, 6285, 6536,
6574, 6636, 6638, 6905, 7047
Conference on Civil and Human Rights (June 25, 1949) 6285
East Bay 6923
Illinois 6550
Los Angeles 6641, 6833, 6834
Michigan 6495, 6496, 6523
New York City 6591
Pennsylvania 6400
People's Conference to Repeal the McCarran Act 6252
Portland, Oreg 7036
St. Louis, Mo 6624
San Diego 6724, 6725, 6733, 6734, 6738-6740
San Francisco : 6793
Washington 6948
Civil Rights Federation (Michigan) 6523
Clatsop County Committee for Protection of Foreign Born (Oregon) 7027, 7028
Claudia Jones Defense Committee 6163-6165
Committee for a Democratic Far Eastern Policy 6844
Committee for Defense of Four of Oregon's Foreign Born (see also Com-
mittee for Protection of Oregon's Foreign Born) 6170, 6970
Committee for Defense of John Fougerouse 6168
Committee for Free Political Advocacy 6346
Committee for Protection of Greek-Americans 6298
Committee for Protection of Oregon's Foreign Born (see also, Committee
For Defense of Four of Oregon's Foreign Born) 6155,
6977, 6978, 6980, 7001, 7012, 7035, 7038, 7040
Committee for Repeal of the Walter-McCarran Law and the Defense of
Sam and Fanny Manewitz 6622, 6624
See also:
Committee to Repeal the Walter-McCarran Law and Stop Depor-
tation of Sam and Fanny Manewitz.
Sam and Fanny Manewitz Defense Committee.
Committee for the Freedom of Martin Young (see also Citizens Commit-
tee to Secure Bail for Martin Young 6170
Committee for the Freedom of Sam Milgrom 6262, 6528
Committee for World Youth Friendship and Cultural Exchange 6804
Committee in Defense of Henry Podolski 6162, 6165
Committee To Aid Spanish Democracy 6447
Committee to Defend Chungsoon and Choon Cha Kwak 6280, 6282
Committee to Defend Marie Richardson Harris 6732
Committee To End Sedition Laws 6441, 6443-6445
Committee To Repeal the Walter-McCarran Law and To Protect the For-
eign Born (Philadelphia) 6374
Committee to Repeal the Walter-McCarran Law and Stop Deportation of
Sam and Fanny Manewitz 6624
See also:
Committee for Repeal of the Walter-McCarran Law and the De-
fense of Sam and Fanny Manewitz.
Sam and Fanny Manewitz Defense Committee.
: :: : : : : : :
INDEX xiii
Page
Comrmmist Information Bureau 6338, 6339
Communist Party. USA 6231
Executive Committee 6G56
Hungarian National Bureau 6178, 6179
National Review Commission 6179, 6338
Nationality Groups Commission 6179, 6225, 6226
Communist Party
District 3 (Eastern Pennsylvania) 6374
District 8 (Illinois) 6577
California
Central Committee 6871, 6893
Los Angeles County 6646-6649. 6951
San Francisco 6901, 6902, 6905
Twin Peaks Club 6871
District of Columbia 6219, 6225
Illinois:
Chicago
Argo Club 6569-6571, 6573, 6574
Auto No. 1 Branch (also known as The Industrial Club and
Electromotive Branch) 6574-6580
Cacchione Branch 6577
PJlectromotive Branch (see Auto No. 1 Branch).
Industrial Club (see Auto No. 1 Branch).
Southwest Section 6577, 6582
LaGrange 6566
Michigan 6492, 6495, 6498, 6500
Detroit
Michigan Avenue Club 6493
12th Street Club 6485
West Side Section Committee.- 6493, 6496
District Control Commission 617S
Language Commission 6499
Nationality Commission 6498, (>499
State Committee 6497
New York
New York City
Brooklyn 6189
Stuyvesant Club 6590
Review Commission 617!)
Ohio 6456
Cuyahoga County 6379
Oregon
Portland 7040
North End Club 7031
Pennsylvania
Eastern Pennsylvania 6357
Nationality Committee 6437, 6438
Western Pennsylvania 6456
Washington 7074
Seattle 7008
State Committee 6941, 6942, 7005
West Virginia 6178
Communist Political Association
California 6900
District of Columbia 6221, 6222
Seattle, Wash., Queen Anne Branch 7022
U. N. Club 6235, 6236
Conference for Legislation in the National Interest 6183, 6195, 6202, 6233
Congress of American Women 6168, 6345, 6346
Council for Civic Unity 6905
Council on African Affairs 6290
Councils for Protection of Foreign Born 6146, 6150, 6151
Czechoslovak Committee for Protection of Foreign Born 6298
Detroit Committee for Protection of Foreign Born 6475
Distributive, Processing, and Office Workers of America, Local 35 6083
xiv INDEX
District 6 Committee to Defend Allan D. McNeil. (See Electrical, Radio,

and Machine Workers of America, United, District Six Committee To
Defend Allan D. McNeil.) Page
East Bay Committee for Protection of Foreign Born 6169, 6889, 6890
Eastern Pennsylvania Committee for Protection of Foreign Born 6155
East Side (Los Angeles) Committee for Protection of Foreign Born 6217
Electrical, Radio, and Machine Workers of America, United 6168,
6274, 6277, 6278, 6453, 6583, 6596
District Six Committee To Defend Allan D. McNeil 6447, 6448
District 8, Antonia Sentner Defense Committee 6170
Local 430 (New York City) 6301
Local 1421 : 6659
Emergency Civil Liberties Committee 6202, 6290, 6359, 6360
Emma Lazarus AVomen's Federation 6604
Ethel Linn Defense Committee for the Repeal of the McCarran-Walter
Act 6853,6854
Eulalia Figueiredo Defense Committee 6165
Ferdinand Smith Defense Committee 61(^5
Finnish American Freedom Committee 6162,6165,6298
Finnish American Mutual Aid Society, IWO 6168
Finnish (Defense) Committee i 6170,6295
Fishermen and Allied Workers of America, International, Local 3 6997
Foundation of America 6581
Fred Williams Defense Committee. (See Automobile, Aircraft, and Agri-
cultural Implement Workers of America, United, Local 208, Fred Wil-
liams Defense Committee.)
Freedom of the Press Committee Against Deportation 6162, 6164, 6165
Frontier Book Store (Seattle) 6947
Garment Workers Union, International Ladies, Local 65 6671
General Motors Corp., Electromotive Division (LaGrange, 111.) 6575-6580
Greek-American Defense Committee : 6471
Greek (Defense) Committee 6170, 6295
Gus Polites Defense Committee 6470
Harbor Committee for Protection of Foreign Born (Los Angeles) 6796, 6797
Harisiades-Taffler Neighborhood Defense Committee 6298
Harlem Trade-Union Council 6302
Harry Bridges Defense Committee 6888
Hungarian-American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born 6298
Hungarian American Defense Committee 6166
Hungarian Brotherhood, IWO 6168
Hungarian-Workmens Home Society 6662
Immigrants Technical Aid Bureau 6239
Imported Publications and Products 6338
Improved Benevolent and Protective Order of the Elks of the World 6203
Independent Progressive Party 6731
International Labor Defense 6152, 6242, 6611, 6(M4, 6976
International Union of Students 6268,6269
Second World Student Congress, August 1950, Prague 62(>8
International Workers Order 6168,6229,6230,6389
Polish section 6582
Italian-American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born 6472
James Keller Defense Committee (Chicago) 6296, 6557, 6568, 6593, 6594
Jefferson School of Social Science 6281, 6595, 7002
Jewish-American Cultural Club (Los Angeles) 6762
Jewish Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. (See Chicago Jewish
Committee for Protection of Foi'eign Born.)
Jewish People's Fraternal Order 6168
Philadelphia Council 6311-6313
John Santo Defense Counnittee 6165
Juditz Defense Committee. (See Paul Yuditch Defense Committee.)
Korean-American Deportees Defense Committee 6735
Tâbor's Nonpartisan League 6274
Lenin School (Moscow) 6618,6620
Lithuanian American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born 6298
INDEX XV
Page
Longshoremen's and Warehousemen's Union, International 6878
Federated Auxiliaries of Oregon 7002
Local 8 (Portland, Greg.) 6166, 6168
Local 37 (Los Angeles, Calif.) 6169
Los Angeles Committee for Protection of Foreign Born (.see also East Side
(Los Angeles) Committee for Protection of Foreign Born) 6155,
6632, 6634, 6636-6638, 6644, 6655, 6662, 6670, 6671, 6682,
6170,
6695, 6699, 6700, 6702, 6706, 6707, 6714, 6743, 6745, 6752,
6691,
6759, 6764, 6785, 6786, 6793, 6797, 6806, 6810, 6818, 6827,
6755,
6834-6837, 6844, 6845, 6851, 6892, 6921.
6833,
Massachusetts Committee for the Revision of the McCarran- Walter Immi-
gration and Naturalization Act 6370
Michigan Committee for Protection of Foreign Born {see also Provisional
Committee for Youth Participation) 6155,
6162, 6164, 6190, 6463, 6464, 6469, 6474, 6475, 6484, 6491, 6493,
6495, 6496, 6498-6500, 6503, 6544, 6626.
Trade Union Committee 6498, 6500
Michigan Peace Council 6526
Midwest Committee for Protection of Foreign Born ()l.j5, 6162,
6548, 6549, 6555, 6566, 6567, 6569, 6588, 6589, 6598, 6602, 6603, 6626
Midwest Hotel Catering Corp 6594
Mine, Mill and Smelter Workers, International Union of 6756
Minneapolis Joint Committee Against Deportation 6297
Minnesota Committee for Protection of Foreign Born {see also Pro-
visional Minnesota Committee for Protection of Foreign Born) 6155,
6608, 6609, 6612, 6613, 6615, 6626
Moses ResnikofE Defense Committee 6297
National Association for the Advancement of Colored People 6205, 6206, 6574
National Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born 6146
National Committee for the Protection of West Indian Americans 6216
National Committee To Repeal the McCarran Acts 6146
National Committee to Win Amnesty for the Smith Act Victims 6253, 6537
National Council of American-Soviet Friendship 6168
Chicago Council of American-Soviet Friendship 6168
National Lawyers Guild 6168, 6202
National Negro Congress 6205, 6210, 6218, 6220, 6222
Brooklyn, N. Y., Council (1940 and 1941) 6218,6219
Washington, D. C, Council 6219, 6220, 6222
National Negro Labor Council 6218, 6675
Chicago 6169
Los Angeles 6922
National Nonpartisan Committee To Defend the Rights of the 12 Com-
munist Leaders 6599, 6600
National Women's Appeal for the Rights of Foreign Born Americans 6171,
6190, 6191, 6299-6301, 6346, G347
Nationality Committee of Western Pennsylvania 6435-6438
Nature Friends Camp (near Valley, Pa.) 6372
Nature Friends of America 6168
Needle Trades Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born 6856
New England Citizens Concerned for Peace 6252
New England ('ommittee for Protection of Foreign Born 6154,
6155, 6166, 6367-()370
New York City Consumers Council 6341, 6344, 6346, 6348
New York Committee for Protection of Foreign Born 6155
6157, 6166, 6286, 6292, 6327, 6:334, 6591, 6592
New York Trade Union Committee for Protection of Foreign Born 6166, 6168
Nonpartisan Committee for Clemency for the Rosenbergs 6923
Northern California Committee for Protection of Foreign P.orn 6155
<J164, 6166, 6167, 6170, 6867, 6872, 6876, 6877, 6899, 6914, 6915
Northwest Citizens' Defense Committee 7047
Northwest Committee for Protection of Foreign Born {see also Washing-
ton State Committee for Protection of Foreign Born 6155, 616.5, (>947-(J949,
6953, 69.54, 6956, 6957, 6964, 6972, 6975, 6982, 6989, 6993, 6997, 6998
Office and Professional Workers of America, United 6983
Ohio Committee for Protectiim of Foreign Born 6155,
6168, 6246, 6378, 6381, 6383, 6456
Ohio ('oiiin!itt(M' for tli<> Defense of Civil Rights 6777
Ohio Provisional Committee for Protection of Foreign Born 6246,6379,6387
) : ) ) )
XVl INDEX
Oregon Committee for Protection of Foreign Born. (See Committee for

Protection of Oregon's Foreign Born. P»w
Pacific Northwest Labor Sctiool 6498
Packinghouse Workers of America, United 6567
Page Engineering Plant, McCook, 111 6572, 6577
Paul Yuditch * Defense Committee 6167, 6168
Peggy Wellman Defense Committee 6470
People's Educational Center (Hollywood) 6671
Pete Nelson Defense Committee (Everett, Wash.) 6165
Philadelphia Committee for Defense of the Foreign Born '6361
Philadelphia Committee for Protection of Foreign Born 6362
Philadelphia Committee for Repeal of the Walter-McCarran Act and To
Defend Its Victims ^— 6364
Philadelphia Committee to Defend the Foreign Born. {See Philadelphia
Committee for Defense of the Foreign Born.
Pittsburgh Committee for Protection of Foreign Born (see also Western
Pennsylvania Committee for Protection of Foreign Born) 6407
Podolski Defense Committee. (See Committee in Defense of Henry Po-
dolski.
Polish- American Committee for Protection of Foreign Born (see also
American-Polish Committee for Protection of Foreign Born) 6479
Polish-American Congress 6-581
Portland Committee for Protection of Foreign Born 7049
Presentations, Inc 6248, 0249
I'rogressive Party
Michigan State Central Committee 6521
New York City 6168,6204,6212,6230
Pennsylvania 6356
Washington State 6949
Provisional Committee for Youth Participation (see also Michigan Com-
mittee for Protection of Foreign Born) '
6480, 6519
Provisional Minnesota Committee for Protection of Foreign Born (see also
Minnesota Committee for Protection of Foreign Born) 6166
ResnikofE Defense Committee. (See Moses Resnikoff Defense Com-
mittee.)
Rose Nelson (Defense) Committee 6170,6295
Russian-American Society, San Francisco 6928
St. Louis Committee for Protection of Foreign Born 6626
Sam and Fanny Manewitz Defense Committee 6622
See also:
Committee for Repeal of the Walter-McCarran Law and the De-
fense of Sam and Fanny Manewitz.
Committee To Repeal the Walter-McCarran Law and Stop De-
portation of Sam and Fanny Manewitz.
Sam Sweet Defense Committee. (See Automobile. Aircraft, and Agricul-
tural Implement Workers of America, United, Local 51 (Detroit), Sam
Sweet Defense Committee.
San Diego Peace Forum 6730
Save Our Sons Committee 6571,6572
School for Contemporary Writers 6281
Seamen's Defense Committee 6290
Seattle Committee for Protection of Foreign Born 7049
Seattle Labor School 6948
Slavic American Youth Council 6258, 6259
Slovak Workers Society 6168
Socialist Unity Forum 62-55
Socialist Workers Party 6215
Sons and Daughters (Defense) Committee, The 6170,6295,6296
Sons and Daughters of the Foreign Born in the Fight Against Deporta-
tion 6303-6305
Sons of the American Revolution 6143
Southern California Committee for Protection of Foreign Born 6877
Southern California Peace Crusade 6842
Southern Conference for Human Welfare 6213
Stanford University - 6924
1 Also spelled Juditz.
2 Referred to as Philadelphia Committee To Defend the Foreign Born.
: :
INDEX xvii
Page
Stanley Nowak Defense Committee 6472
Tony Sentner Defense Committee 6297
Trade Union Committee for Repeal of the Walter-McCarran Law 6825
Ukrainian American Fraternal Union, IWO 6259, 6261, 6262
Ukrainian (Defense) Committee 6170,6260,6295
Union Films 6249
United Ne^'ro and Allied Veterans of America 6204, 6288
U. S. Government
Coast Guard 6290, 6291
Immigration and Naturalization Service 6135
Administration, New York City
Office of Price 6198
United States Housing Administration, Washington 6198
United States Motors 6647
University of Washington 6948, 6949
Vincent Aiidrulis Defense Committee 6162, 6165, 6476
Washington (State) Connnittee for Protection of Foreign Born 6942,
6949. (i!>r,i>. <;<».-,3, 6956, 6957, 6959. 6964. 6972, 6988, 7006, 7018, 7021,
7022. 7043. 7044, 7046. 7047, 7051, 7054, 7062, 7075.
Washington Commonwealth Federation 6947
Washington Pension Union 6948, 6974
Western Pennsylvania Committee for Protection of Foreign Born (see
also Pittsburgh Committee for Protection of Foreign Born) 6155,
6394, 6396, 6399, 6404, 6408, 6414, 6417, 6420, 6456
Western Pennsylvania Youth Committee for Peace 6803
Women's Committee to Free Katherine Hyndman 6169
Women's Peace and Unity Club 6612
Woodworkers of America, International 6993
World Federation of Democratic Youth 6265-6270
Northern Washington District Council 6974, 6975
World Peace Congress: Second Congress, Warsaw, Poland; 1950 (No-
vember) 6601
World Youth Conference (October 29-November 10, 1945; London)— 6264,6265
World Youth Congress Second Congress, Budapest, September 2, 1949
: 6802,
6803
World Youth Festival
First (Prague, 1947) 6258-6260
Second (Budapest, August 14-18, 1949) 6266
Third (East Berlin, Aug. 5-19, 1951) 6267
Youns Communist League 6878
Michigan 6488, 6492, 6493
Yuditch Defense Committee. (See Paul Yuditch Defense Committee.)
Yugoslav (Defense) Committee 6170,6295
PUBLICATIOXS
Amnesty Trumpet 6253
Chicago Star 6550
Freedom and Democracy
Coalition for 7005
Communist Immigration Peril, The 6149
Contemporary Reader (quarterly) 6625
Daily People's World (Richmond) 6923
Daily Worker 6618, 6625
Michigan edition 6493
Defender. The 6484
Deportation Drive Versus the Bill of Rights, The (pamphlet) 6170
Deportation Terror, a Weapon to Gag America, The 6171
For a Lasting Peace, for a People's Democracy 6338
Freedom (New York City) 1 6204
Glos Ludowy (People's Voice) 6169
Hungarian Daily Journal 6230
In Defense of the Right To Defend Foreign Born Americans 6420
In the Shadow of Lilierty 6170
Inhumanity of the Walter-McOarran Law, The 6420
Inside Story of the Legion 6211
International Affairs 6338
Korean Independence 6840
Liberator 6331
xviii INDEX
Page
Mau Is Sentenced to Death by the Walter-McCarran Act, The 6420
March of Labor 7029, 7030
Morning Freiheit 6168
Narodni (ilasnik (Croatian-American newspaper) 6169
National Guardian 6169, 6196
New Forward (Uj Elore) 6230
New Opportunities in the Fight for Peace and Democracy 6499
New York Beacon 6157
Ohio Defender 6387
Russky Golos 6234, 6333
Victims of the Walter-McCarran Law and How They Are Defended 6171
—
Walter-McCarran Law Police-State Terror for Foreign-Born Ameri-
cans, The (pamphlet) 6170
—
Walter-McCarran Law Straight Jacket for American Liberties, The
(pamphlet) 6287
Washington Afro-American 6205
Young Conmiunists in Action (pamphlet) 6878, 6879
o
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Committee On Un-American Activities4-1956

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COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6875

with respect to their promotions of peace. We see here one of the

Mr. SciiERER. She could, but she won't.

Mr. Arens. Now we have a final document which we would like to

This sixth annual conference, according to this document, has as

COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6877

So I just wish to state to the sponsors of the committee in San

of these committees throughout tlie United States.

I have here the Guide to Subversive Organizations and Publica-

So again we discover that when Congress is petitioned, if it is, by

6878 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION

Kindly remain standing while the chairman administers an oath

TESTIMONY OF LOUIS GOLDBLATT. ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,

I want to invite his attention to certain language. "Young Commu-

( Document marked "Exhibit Xo. 567," see appendix, pp. 8116-8132.)

6880 COMMTJNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION

Mr. Arens (reading) :

I want to direct your attention to a little excerpt on page 7

Then I want to invite your attention to a little excerpt beginning on

Also, that its main job

This is with reference to the capitalistic countries.

COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6881

Mr. GoLDBLATT. You have had an answer to your questions. Your

Mr. Akexs. I would like to invite your attention to some more

Here is a little excerpt I would like to invite your attention to,

6882 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION

Mr. G(tLi)i'.LAiT. Tl)at is a —paid professional perjurers of govern-

COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSIOX 6883

Mr. Andersen. Aren't you reading from something else? I don't

6884 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION

Did you write

6886 COIVIMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION

I am deliberately reading this next statement by our highest court

COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6887

Mr. ScHERER. And he Avoukl promptly take the fifth amendment.

COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6889

Mr. Doyle. Without objection.

TESTIMONY OF MES. CLAIR JENSEN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,

Mrs. Jexsex. Yes.

6890 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION

Mrs. Jensen. I refuse to answer this question because I honest-

COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSIOK 6891

isthe testimony of Stanley B. Hancock, who was a former Communist

Was Mr. Hancock lying or was he telling the truth when he so

Mrs. Jensen. I refuse to answer on the basis of the fifth amendment

1 This is a reference to La Verne Lym.

6892 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION

Please committee while you are under oath, if you pre-

Mrs. Jensex. I refuse to answer on the basis of the fifth amend-

COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6893

Mr. Arens. Was he a stool pigeon when he si^rned this original

6894 COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION

Mrs. Jensen. I refuse to answer on the basis of the fifth amendment.

Did everybodj^ laugh when Abner Green said that ?

COMMUNIST POLITICAL SUBVERSION 6895

tion of Foreign Born and that, to your certain knowledge, it is con-

Mrs. Jensen. I refuse to answer on the basis of the fifth amend-

( The witness confers with her counsel.

resentatives Velde and Scherer.)

AFTERNOON SESSION—TUESDAY, DECEMBER 11, 1956

The subcommittee was reconvened at the expiration of the recess at

TESTIMONY OF AUBREY GROSSMAN, ACCOMPANIED BY COUNSEL,

Mr. Arens. You are appearing today, Mr. Grossman, in response