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PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Tech Log > To Follow or Not To Follow The F/D
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Sky_Captain

13th Mar 2005, 21:34

Me, I've only started on the 737, and its my first "Big Jet", but I found myself a little lost last week while in the sim of a
737NG. Most of my training has been done on the C ranebank 737-400, and this was my second time in the NG sim.
My problem came about while on a single engine ILS approach. I was given an auto-pilot failure after VOR/LOC and hand
flew it from there. When I armed APP and the flight director followed the ILS fine until about 3 or4 miles.
To my lack of knowladge, I was a little unsure of NG power settings for single engine approach (anybody with those figures
for a LW of 55tons please let me know) but I did my best to maintain the VREF IC E speed. What happened next totally lost
me. I drifted slightly right of the LOC and when the F/D started moving left I followed but never got the dot right in the
centre, after that it continued left and even when I was at dead centre with my dot it continued left while the LOC moved
right :uhoh:
In the end, this problem cost me big, a partial pass on my OPC :{
I eventually gave up on the flight director and followed the LOC , and yes the right frequency was in and idented and the
right course was set on the MC P :ugh:
So what do the experts think? Sim Fault, Bad Flying or just the way the 737NG F/D acts.
Thanks for any replies,
S.C . :ok:

Rainboe

13th Mar 2005, 22:10

Sounds to me in the struggle to hold on to the single engine approach, you might have let your trim go out of line. The flight
director only gives correct indications if the aeroplane is trimmed out properly. Watch the position of the control wheel and
try and keep it horizontal.
*PS don't worry, we all do it. I did the same on an engine out NDB approach and scored about 2/10 on my own estimation!

Sky_Captain

13th Mar 2005, 22:24

Good Point, I suppose with the constant changing of power and pitch settings I had no way of keeping it trimmed. Worst was
that a 20kt cross wind didn't help :ouch:
So that leaves me with a problem, have no idea when I will be re-booked for another OPC , cant afford to travel abroad to
practice in a good sim since we dont have one in the green isle, I guess I'll just need to learn pitch power settings for the
NG.
Anybody start me off with a rough guide for both single and 2 engine approach?
Many thanks,
S.C . :ok:

Rainboe

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13th Mar 2005, 22:29

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Flying this self same sim, I found it no help trying to memorise power settings. Just remember that you need a fair chunk
more power on S/E and fly the aeroplane!.

Sky_Captain

13th Mar 2005, 22:43

I know what you mean, but my conversion course wasn't the best. When I flew the 400 at BAFT I got pitch/power settings
for everything, then got nothing for the NG. Havn't been in a sim or flown in 3 months and was expected to fly perfectly for
my OPC :confused:
I suppose since I have to re-do this part again I just want some figures in my head to try so I don't fail :{
How I hate playing the waiting game :mad:
S.C . :ok:

Updraft

13th Mar 2005, 23:59

The Flight Director gave me a lot of grief in my initial Ng time. Sometimes you need to "look thru" the F/D.
Try the following figures as a starting point and fine tune from there.
Prior to G/S slope capture single engine, think 5,6,7,8.
5 degrees flap
6 degrees attitude
78% N1
1/2 dot under slope, gear down, flap 15, maintain 6 degrees (a little forward pressure required)
At G/s capture 2.5/3 degrees attitude and approx 73% N1.
Two engine figures can be extracted from Flight With Unreliable Airspeed tables in QRH.
ie 737/800 24k 60 000 kg
Flap 30 1 degree attitude 58% N1
Flap 40 -.5 degree attitude 64% N1
Use these as a start point and fine tune from there.
Good Luck!

BOAC

14th Mar 2005, 08:00

To add, for the -700 from Boeing QRH:


2-eng
60T F15+10, pitch 3.5, 51% N1
50T """""""""""""""""""""46%
Always been taught to add about ?10%? for OEI (oh to ever settle down at an N1:D ), and, of course, do NOT try to be
smart and fly (Vref15+10)+5. Get a little slow and whoops!
.....and.....always look 'through' the F/D when flying the ILS, 2 or 1 engine. I preferred the inverted 'V' F/D myself, as I
always felt it was more positive.
C heck PMs

Sky_Captain

14th Mar 2005, 11:58

Thanks for the replies everybody, bit nervous about failing my first OPC :ugh: and every bit of advice helps.
Updraft, some nice ballpark figures there for me, I'll definately try them and fine tune as necessary, Thank You :ok:
BOAC , also many thanks for the help. Send you a PM now.
Any other good tips for man-handling the NG out there, then please post them here.
S.C . :ok:

Rainboe

14th Mar 2005, 12:09

I think we all, or almost all, fail checks from time to time- I certainly have and I am not ashamed to admit it- and more than
once! I haven't killed anyone yet, and neither have you. You sound as though you are doing it all with minimum experience
or great lack of ongoing experience. You just have to put it behind you and thrash away and do your best. You are not going
to stumble and drop out having come this far- you've already done 98% of it- just persevere and don't get disheartened.
This is what you've set your heart on- just do what needs doing and you will get it.

Sky_Captain

14th Mar 2005, 12:23

Thanks Rainboe, I've given up everything for this and right now i've too many bank managers knocking on my door for me
to fumble at the last hurdle. All I need now is a date to redo what I missed in the OPC and a start date for going on line.
Wish it was easy to get those!
Its encouragment like that I need, Thank You :D
S.C .

Truckmasters

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15th Mar 2005, 08:16

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Simple question - depending on how long you have been playing with F/D?
Did your annuciators indicate that the app mode had captured. I have seen guys have the HDG bug on RWY HDG and the
F/D has never come out of HDG mode due various issue. Just something to watch

Sky_Captain

15th Mar 2005, 10:07

Yes Truckmaster, APP mode had been selected and was shown in the annunciator. HDG and frequencies were also correct.
The examiner on the day believes it was due to the aircrafts drift and momentum, I think he meant it was crabbing to the
right of the LOC and even though I turned the nose left it continued to crab. The cross wind was 15kt coming from my right?
So C an the NG easily crab :confused:
S.C . :{

Rainboe

15th Mar 2005, 10:17

You were out of trim. Nothing else! Forget crabbing- that's irrelevant. The Flight Director indications are only correct if you
are correctly trimmed.

Sky_Captain

15th Mar 2005, 11:35

My appologies Rainboe, i'm not discrediting your answer, it was just what the examiner said that threw me. Although you are
right about the trim, at flap 5 I was trimmed then after gear down flaps 15 I did not touch the trim. Next time i'm in the sim,
i'll correct for trim and hopefully things will go my way:)
S.C .

FlapsOne

15th Mar 2005, 20:07

It sounds almost certain that you were out of balance.


The 737 slip indications are punk so the only good way of doing it is to 'kick' (rudder) the control wheel till it sits horizontally.
C orrect balance is the absolute key to flying OEI half-way accurately.
You have a tremendous amount in our favour that you have recognised a problem and are taking steps to recover. keep
that attitude and you will get there.
I have to say though, I would have been a little disappointed with the attitude of your instructor/examiner if I had left a part
failed OPC /LPC without receiving a full and clear explanation of the reasons and causes of the fail.
Did you get another go at that part of the test?

Rainboe

15th Mar 2005, 20:27

Sky-C aptain, the way you mentioned trimming was as if you had it trimmed out at Flap 5, selected landing config and
trimmed, and left it at that. Every power change, no matter how small on one engine, every speed change, you have to
retrim it out. Don't bother with the rudder trim too much, you can't keep taking your head away from the panel. In your
scan, keep checking the control wheel. Your feet should be fairly frozen on the pedals- as you increase thrust, push a bit
more rudder on, as you decrease, take a bit off, but all the time in your scan, you should check the wheel horizontal. If it
starts tipping, move your foot on the lower side of the control wheel. When you start going out of trim like that, the Flight
Director is no longer giving you USDA Grade 'A' information!
Forget worrying about crab- that is nothing to do with it. If you are in trim, the FD will sort that out for you.
Remember, trim, trim, trim, then for good measure, trim again. You should walk out of the sim with a trembling leg!
Don't worry- you will walk it next time.

Sky_Captain

16th Mar 2005, 10:21

Rainboe, I promise you know, i'll limp out of that sim if it means passing. I was a little unsure if it is necessary to continually
trim the rudder when coming in for landing or just taking it all in your legs and "leg flying it" :ooh:
Also I'll keep a good moving eye on my elevator trim :8
FlapsOne, Thanks for the advice, I never fear asking for help, and always find a lot of good people on this site willing to
share their expertise. I can't blame the examiner too much, I was lost as to what had happened and took his explanation to
heart. Although, at my low hours experience and this being my first type rating, I felt it a bit tough to be expected to
perform perfectly after being made to wait 3 months since my LPC and last bit of flying, for an OPC . I wish I could have
afforded some practice time in a sim between those 3 months, but having to travel to the UK and then pay for an NG sim,
well right now its beyond my budget. Just sold my car to pay to redo the part of the OPC I failed.
But anyway, enough of my boring story :zzz: I'm just waiting now to find out when that OPC renewal will be.
Thanks again,
S.C . :ok:

Rainboe

16th Mar 2005, 11:05

Get this clear SC . At some stage set up a reasonable rudder trim (about 4 I think it was). Leave the trim alone after thatwww.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-166887.html

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Get this clear SC . At some stage set up a reasonable rudder trim (about 4 I think it was). Leave the trim alone after thatnow your legs take over completely. Lock your heels on the floor, and hold it. Make small movements in line with thrust on
final approach, but you will be holding quite a lot of rudder pressure. As you push thrust on, press rudder, and vice versa,
frequently checking control wheel for horizontal. When you go around, trim elevator forward, and slowly press on rudder as
thrust increases- don't slam the pedal forward- it is a balanced process and it comes on quite slow. Rotate the aeroplane.
Think about LNav and AA, then what you want to retract flap to and level off altitude. Watch out for that rudder trim againbig power changes- keep watching that damn wheel.
I managed to kid people I could fly a 737 for many years with that- it works!

Sky_Captain

16th Mar 2005, 15:01

Thanks Rainboe, I greatly appreciate your help :)


S.C . :ok:

Rainboe

16th Mar 2005, 15:16

That's half of it. Next 50% is your morale! You ARE going to go in there and you ARE going to show that despite not nearly
having enough practice, you ARE going to produce a creditable performance which may not be the best they've ever seen,
but considering your basic lack of practice, it is still going to be damned impressive, and it will be a privilege to sign your
licence so you can get out there and get paid to have more practice and really show them what you can do when you are
allowed to get some proper training in!
Did you follow all that? Are you going to whap their ass next time?

Swept wing

16th Mar 2005, 16:47

Also what is quite helpful is using the ILS display instead of the Map display during the approach on the ND as it will show
you very clearly the track line and the ILS course.
If the deviation bar is centered, all you have to do is keep the track line super imposed over the ILS course bar.
This will allow you you to look 'trough' the FD because you now have the raw data on which the FD makes its command in
front of you.
On a NG's with GPS, the track line is generally spot on unlike some -300/400, which use IRS and can have obsolete
magnetic variation information.

Charles Darwin

17th Mar 2005, 08:44

Did you turn on the FPV dot (flight path vector)?

Rainboe

17th Mar 2005, 09:23

I don't think the 737 simulator in question has that. I would think at this stage it is more of a complication than worth having.

Sky_Captain

17th Mar 2005, 10:04

Rainboe, your on. Next time i'm in there i'm gonna kick some M:mad: F:mad: Ass :E
I don't plan to fail, and I refuse to fail. Because this is what I do, and what I will be doing for a long time. Flying is what i
love, and I refuse to give up because of a few hurdles along the way ;)
Swept wing, have to agree with you, the ILS display is the more useful display, and what I like to use.
C harles D, the FPV dot was briefly described to us in our conversion from the classic and has never been properly shown to
us, all my group were told about that, is that it is widely used by Airbus pilots :eek:
Anybody know the rates of an NG sim in the UK, and are there any others than those at GEC AT and Alteon?
Thanks everybody,
S.C . :ok:

Rainboe

17th Mar 2005, 14:01

Not sure I agree about the ILS being displayed on the Nav screen. Because of your lack of practice, you want to KISS (Keep
It Simple Sucker!). You have a GS and a Localiser displayed on your Primary Flight Display. Why try and scan over to
another instrument? I would suggest leaving your Nav display on Nav and giving all your attention (apart from a scan over
to EPR and a frequent quick look that the control wheel) to the PFD- it has all you need- ILS, Speed, Attitude, Flt Director,
Altitude, Heading. Live in this instrument, print out a picture of it and put it by your bed- know it better than you know your
girlfriend's face. Keep everything basic and as simple as possible or you will get swamped that much more easily- hence
don't bother with FPV, not that the sim has one I think. I know you can put some very good information on the Nav display
as Swept Wing advised, but I think your problem is possibly that you are getting swamped and overloaded with information
already hence you are not seeing the aeroplane going out of trim, so I feel you would be better keeping it as simple as your
previous types without such bells and whistles. A bit more practice and you would be ready to use them though- it would
make all the difference.
Some other opinions on that would be interesting!

Sky_Captain

18th Mar 2005, 10:33

Thanks rainboe, as I said before I greatly appreciate your advice on this issue. And believe me everything will be put to
memory and a practicle good use :)
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To Follow or Not To Follow The F/D [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

S.C .

spleener

18th Mar 2005, 10:57

S.C ., follow rainboe's advice as it's good gen. Been a long time since I flew a 737-300 so no NG experience, but I tend to fly
all eng inop approaches with the rudder trim neutral - that way I know where the sucker is. If you keep the slip balanced the
FD will give you great info.
Reference thrust settings, as a [rough] general rule thrust = fuel flow, so use the same total fuel flow to get a ballpark thrust
setting. Not sure if that is easy to see on the NG:8
Best of luck!

Rainboe

18th Mar 2005, 16:27

Spleener- I used to ask at outer marker for rudder trim to be wound to zero whilst I froze my feet on the pedals to take the
strain. The 737 training section persuaded me out of that, and I found it was actually better to leave a low trim setting in
during the approach and then don't touch it. Rudder pedal forces can be very high, so no point in making too much work for
yourself. After that you just watch the slip indicator (very poor) and the control wheel. As long as you centre the control
wheel with rudder gently, the Flight Director will give you good indications. I can't remember the power settings very well.
Don't forget, when you land and come back to idle, you no longer have asymmetric thrust, so there will be unbalanced
rudder trim suddenly yawing you into the live engine. Just a nasty little surprise when you think it's all over!

Sky_Captain

18th Mar 2005, 19:37

Guys, thanks for all the advice on single engine approaches for the NG. The company has just contacted me and i'm to re-do
what i failed on next week, but this time not in the NG but in a 400 Sim? With plenty more experience in this, I hope it to be
uneventful and enjoyable.
Rainboe, I promise, my attitude and approach to this wil be determined and confident. With everyones advice here and a
little practice before hand, I should be out on the line soon.
Take care,
S.C . :ok:

Hudson

20th Mar 2005, 11:52

The FD is there as an aid. It is not the be-all and end-all of flying an aeroplane despite what some check pilots/simulator
instructors think.
If the FD bewilders you on an ILS or go-around (two or one engine) then ask your instructor if you can fly the go-around
complete raw data. Now you can see the body angles that are required crystal clearly.
Once you feel competent at full raw data, then when you use the FD you will be aware of its idiosyncrasy's - and as
someone said previously, you can "look behind the FD" and smooth things out. 100% FD use can subtly erode your normal
instrument scans.

LGB

31st Mar 2005, 17:04

I had the same troubles, though on another aircraft type. Everything went well in sim, except for some of the last sim
sessions, my OEI approaches were like I was flying an ILS for the first time.
Localizer and flight director went like windshield wipers!
For my part, I found what caused my trouble:
1. I wasn't enough after the speed. Being in close to the speed-unstable region, thrust must be managed properly. I didn't
(in time), so with an engine out, large thurst changes became necessary.
2. The changing thrust affected the slip/skid, so rudder needed more attention, whilst trying to get the speed back to where
it should be.
3. The out of trim condition caused the heading to wander, as well as flying in a crab meant the aircraft went in another
direction than heading was pointing - causing flight director readings to be unusable, until becoming in trim again. For me it
was the first time with a crosspointer FD - before I was used to the "fly-into" type, so I had flight director needles and
LLZ/GS crossing one another ... and instructor would NOT let me fly raw data.
4. By this time, localizer would be all over the place, and soon all the parameters of speed, thrust, localizer, glide slope,
heading and maybe more would be out of control, resulting in a slalom ILS.
The solution was simple - it starts at 1. above:
Keep a good eye on the thrust and speed. If you have a speed trend vector, a fast/slow indicator or a three digit mach
indicator (I guess not on a 737 NG!), then use them for speed trend. The mach indicators third digit serves as a trend
because it is so sensitive, not reading the actual mach but checking whether the speed is going up or down - though I am
sure you don't have this one on the NG.
Knowing the approximate power settings for the approach is a great help especially if you are inexperienced - at least it
saves you from the large thrust changes.

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saves you from the large thrust changes.
Have fun at the check ride - smile at the instruments and they will smile back to you ;)

Rainboe

31st Mar 2005, 17:49

I scowl and swear at them- and they do the same back!

IRRenewal

31st Mar 2005, 22:18

Rainboe,
You seem confused about which sim this chap is 'flying'.
Rainboe wrote:
hence don't bother with FPV, not that the sim has one I think.
Yet S_C wrote:
Most of my training has been done on the C ranebank 737-400, and this was my second time in the NG sim.
So, this chap was being tested in a NG sim, not the braincrank -400 sim, although most of his training had been in the -400
sim. Why would this NG sim not have FPV?
Rainboe wrote:
apart from a scan over to EPR and a frequent quick look that the control wheelEPR? In an NG?
Don't forget, when you land and come back to idle, you no longer have asymmetric thrustNot true, ground idle on one
engine with the other shut down is still assymmetric thrust.
S_C , you keep on talking about your OPC . Are you sure this wasn't an LST?
OPC - Operator Prof C heck
LST - Licence Skill Test (test for initial TR issue)

Rainboe

1st Apr 2005, 08:14

Well he said most of his training was done in a 400 sim which I have used extensively. My suggestion was it didn't have a
FPV which shouldn't be used anyway if he flies one with it- it is more of an unnecessary complication than a benefit to an
inexperienced pilot. We have FPV on the 747- we do not use them or are trained in their use. Personally, I like it, but it's for
advanced flying only. I suggested on page 2
I would think at this stage it is more of a complication than worth having.
EPR. N1. What's the difference? It's still only a power setting, and EPR is what he'd have been using at C ranebank.
When you come back to idle for landing and rollout in a 737, asymmetric thrust is just about negligible. If you imagine any
difference, it's more than I ever saw! If you land with approach type rudder trim on, that will give you a surprise when you
come back to idle and land, forgetting the trim is there. I was just warning him of a little effect that has sprung up on me. I
wasn't trying to go into the academical theory of flying, just a few of the most important pointers for someone in his position
flying a simulator I know well.

BOAC

1st Apr 2005, 09:03

EPR is what he'd have been using at C ranebank


April fool? 400 has N1s. EPR on the 737 in BA went out with the 200 - and some other dinosaurs:D :D

Rainboe

1st Apr 2005, 09:48

Did it really?- I'm cracking up! It was 8 years ago yer 'onor!
I have been flying an EPR aeroplane since then. Who cares- it says the same thing? C an I plead previous history in
mitigation? Mind you, the 200 was fun- like a C herokee with jets.

stator vane

1st Apr 2005, 10:05

saw the title of the thread and i apologize ahead of time if someone has said this before in earlier reply. (don't have the time
to read them all!)
but learn to use the expanded VOR/ILS picture-(in 3/4/5's and NG's) and move that white track line to where it needs to be.
later sim tests will take away the flight directors at times and you must know how to fly the white track line.
every 737 i have flown needs about 56 +/- with two engines and 70 +/- with one engine once on the glide slope. single
engine level flight is about 80 something as well. depends on weight.
numbers available else where on 737 sites and they don't change that much over the different models
and like the other replier said, think of your arm directly connected to your rudder leg when single engine and keep them
still once set.
airspeed is our friend!!!!
on the EFIS/NG fly the white bug Vref+15 or a bit more (never slower) when single engine and approaching the glide. you
can't fail for having a few extra knots of airspeed and it keeps both ailerons and rudders effective.

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get slow and live gets much more difficult. i never aim for the Vref+5 trap!
and don't forget the option of going around early and setting up again.
and sad to say, it does (at times) depend on who the checker was!!

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