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Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64210)


bycatmoonFriNov04,201110:06am

@ Kevin and Greg

Kevin, meet Greg Kavarnos. Greg, this is Kevin Solway, a longtime poster, video maker and
rouser of rabbles.
Kevin's thoughts are usually unconventional, strongly expressed, and frustratingly well
thought out.
Greg is a longtime poster here, an old hand as it were, and a full blown tantrika if I am not
mistaken.
Greg's thoughts are usually more conventional, almost as strongly expressed and just as
frustratingly well thought out.
Neither of you suffers fools gladly.
Now, how to avoid a terminal exchange of weapons of mass destruction? This is like having
three bears, two bulls, a tiger and a constipated elephant all in the same phone booth! Let's
see now...
You both know the rules and are smart enough to find and read the ToS. Do that, and apply
the rules to your own posts, not the other guy's.
No ad homs please. Diplomacy is required here.
Answer the point without protesting the style.
Please realize this is a very very tetchy situation and go easy.
I will be praying for you both, and keeping my finger poised over the "Lock Thread" button.
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Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64212)


bySherabDorjeFriNov04,201110:45am

KevinSolway wrote:
There is a wealth of nonsense in what is known today as "Buddhism". It has
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superstition and arrogance coming out of its ears.

Aha! And you are going to be the Martin Luther that will trigger it's Protestant reformation?
That sounds just a little arrogant, yes? And what makes you believe that the superstitions
that may exist, in some forms of Buddhism, do not have a functional value and should be
thrown out? On what do you base your opinion?
As for this statement:
For example, "Spin that prayer wheel the wrong way and you will do harm." "If
you don't believe that you can be reborn as a fish when you die then you're not
a Buddhist." "If you don't receive initiations from a Master then you can't
progress along the path." "Jesus was not a bodhisattva he was a Christian."

Pieces of it have nothing to do with Buddhism and everything to do with personal opinion,
other bits have to do with cultural accretions, other bits have to do with Western cultural
imperialism and arrogance and other bits clearly show that you have no idea what some
forms of Buddhism are about.

this thing we call self is merely a construct based on a conglomeration of


causes and conditions which is then held up in opposition to an apparent
other. Is this what you mean by "self"?

Yes.

So where is the self and where is the other?

Yes, I realize that, and you're welcome to do it if you want to. However, I do
not approve. In fact, I strongly disapprove. I trust you are comfortable with
this.

You do not approve that people be reminded of their enlightened qualities??? Why?

That would be a good way to close if you had demonstrated that anything I said
was misinformed.

I let your words (your response to me) speak for themselves.

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Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64214)


byKevinSolwayFriNov04,201111:43am

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gregkavarnos wrote:
KevinSolway wrote:
There is a wealth of nonsense in what is known today as "Buddhism". It
has superstition and arrogance coming out of its ears.

Aha! And you are going to be the Martin Luther that will trigger it's Protestant
reformation? That sounds just a little arrogant, yes?

It would be, except it's something you just made up. I don't see myself as being able to reform
Buddhism. Firstly, I think that Buddhism may be too far gone to the extent that anyone who
is a true Buddhist is commonly regarded to be a nonBuddhist. And secondly, I can't do it
alone. A reformation of Buddhism would require a great many people to make the same kind
of criticisms of current Buddhist practice that I do.

And what makes you believe that the superstitions that may exist, in some
forms of Buddhism, do not have a functional value and should be thrown out?
On what do you base your opinion?

Superstitions are delusions, and delusions certainly do have a function the function being to
separate oneself from reality and shield oneself from it.
All delusions should be abandoned because of the harm they do. In the case that individuals
require some crutches for their survival, then they should not try to force or encourage their
crutches upon others. Delusions should not be made into religious doctrine under any
circumstances.

For example, "Spin that prayer wheel the wrong way and you will do
harm." "If you don't believe that you can be reborn as a fish when you
die then you're not a Buddhist." "If you don't receive initiations from a
Master then you can't progress along the path." "Jesus was not a
bodhisattva he was a Christian."

Pieces of it have nothing to do with Buddhism . . .

In my opinion none if it has anything at all to do with reality, or with the teaching of the
Buddha. Yet there are countless "Buddhists", and certified Buddhist teachers, telling us that
this is real Buddhism. An example is the monk in my video, who claims that mind is
completely independent of the physical world.

other bits clearly show that you have no idea what some forms of Buddhism are
about.

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This is just surmise and wishful thinking on your part.

Where is the self and where is the other?

You are reading this and I am writing it.

You do not approve that people be reminded of their enlightened qualities???

I don't approve of people associating helpful words with unhelpful activities.


For example, delusion is called "delusion", and I'm not going to start calling it "truth" to
remind me of truth. That would be destroying the language.
Likewise with personal names. To call a person, say, "Light of Enlightenment", when they
spread darkness wherever they go, can't be a good thing.
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Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64216)


byDechenNorbuFriNov04,20111:05pm

I'm so glad that someone invented the scroll down. I guess I'll use it often here...
Please keep catmoon's post in mind, fellows.
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Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64219)


bySherabDorjeFriNov04,20111:15pm

KevinSolway wrote:
It would be, except it's something you just made up. I don't see myself as being
able to reform Buddhism. Firstly, I think that Buddhism may be too far gone to
the extent that anyone who is a true Buddhist is commonly regarded to be a
nonBuddhist.

So that is your diagnosis Doctor (PhD) Death? Euthanasia? I think you may find that 1.5 billion
people will disagree with you. And what of the second part of your statement? Do you
consider yourself a true Buddhist that is regarded as a nonBuddhist?
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And secondly, I can't do it alone. A reformation of Buddhism would require a


great many people to make the same kind of criticisms of current Buddhist
practice that I do.

Ahhhh... A Moses without a tribe of Isreal. Sorry to be the one to inform you Dave but the
criticisms you make of Buddhism have been made by other Buddhists too. It's just that, not
ALL Buddhists agree (on either side of the fence).

Superstitions are delusions, and delusions certainly do have a function the


function being to separate oneself from reality and shield oneself from it.

Whose reality? Ones persons delusions are anothers reality. Collective reality? A collective
delusion?

All delusions should be abandoned because of the harm they do. In the case
that individuals require some crutches for their survival, then they should not
try to force or encourage their crutches upon others. Delusions should not be
made into religious doctrine under any circumstances.

I agree 100%. But now you are saying that the Buddha is deluded, since the Buddha taught
rebirth.

In my opinion none if it has anything at all to do with reality, or with the


teaching of the Buddha. Yet there are countless "Buddhists", and certified
Buddhist teachers, telling us that this is real Buddhism. An example is the monk
in my video, who claims that mind is completely independent of the physical
world.

Ahhh, there is that reality again... But now you are claiming to know the real Buddhism? Well,
that's what it sounds like from here.

This is just surmise and wishful thinking on your part.

Well no, actually it is not. You said this:


"If you don't receive initiations from a Master then you can't progress along the
path."

And this betrays a complete lack of understanding of Vajrayana practice. Unless you are, of
course, a Vajrayana practitioner that has first hand experience of the function and nature of
initiations. Are you???

You are reading this and I am writing it.

Who is reading what?

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I don't approve of people associating helpful words with unhelpful activities.

Helpful to whom? To your "cause"? Anything that is not helpful to your "cause" is delusional?
How do you know that you are not delusional?

For example, delusion is called "delusion", and I'm not going to start calling it
"truth" to remind me of truth. That would be destroying the language.

This is true, but you could label it: " something that leads me away from truth, truth being
like wisdom, for example" And then just shorten it to "truth of wisdom", otherwise it would
just be a mouthful.

Likewise with personal names. To call a person, say, "Light of Enlightenment",


when they spread darkness wherever they go, can't be a good thing.

You know nothing about the nature of conditioning? Or maybe you completely overlooked my
previous post where I stated that the names are a reminder of what we "should" be?

LasteditedbySherabDorje(./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=390)onFriNov
04,20111:20pm,edited1timeintotal.
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Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64220)


bySherabDorjeFriNov04,20111:17pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:


:roll:
I'm so glad that someone invented the scroll down. I guess I'll use it often
here...
Please keep catmoon's post in mind, fellows.

Geeeez... One's got his finger on the "lock thread" button and the other has got it on the
"scroll down" function. It's no wonder Buddhists can't agree on anything!

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Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64224)


byKevinSolwayFriNov04,20112:08pm

Dechen Norbu wrote:


Please keep catmoon's post in mind, fellows.
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All these warnings, and yet I was thinking the exchange has been rather civil.
I don't think a discussion can be much more civil than this when people are expressing what
they really think. The good thing about this recent exchange is that noone has resorted to
quoting scripture and appealing to authority. One can only hope that continues.
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Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64225)


bySherabDorjeFriNov04,20112:20pm

KevinSolway wrote:
...The good thing about this recent exchange is that noone has resorted to
quoting scripture and appealing to authority. One can only hope that continues.

Hey! That's not true! I did quote scripture, right here viewtopic.php?
f=66&t=5678&start=220#p64204 (http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?
f=66&t=5678&start=220#p64204) did you overlook this fact because the scripture I quoted was
actually in defence of your position?
Tsktsktsk!

LasteditedbySherabDorje(./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=390)onFriNov
04,201111:58pm,edited1timeintotal.
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Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64227)


bydeepbluehumFriNov04,20112:27pm

Right in some respect wrong in others. The Buddha was plain spoken. Birth means birth,
death means death. Kamma means actions. Phala means results. Rebirth means rebirth. This
is held together by the 12links. He said if you see the 12links you see the Dhamma. If you
know the 12links going on, then there's vijja not avijja, and the whole causal chain is broken.
He didn't explain exactly how someone's kamma works; he just said kamma is sankhara, which
is basically unconscious urges spurning you to act with body, speech and mind, and he said
how that works out in rebirth is imponderable. But if you overcome avijja, then you go to one
of the four paths, and as an Arahant will not be reborn. This all applies equally to Mahayana
and Vajrayana. So our new aspiring teacher is right in the respect that the 12links are every
moment, and they are not in any moment when there is vijja. Then, if you attain the level of
a buddha, when the breath and heart stop and body begins to decay, there is no death.
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Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64230)


byKarmaDondrupTashiFriNov04,20112:35pm

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catmoon wrote:
This is like having three bears, two bulls, a tiger and a constipated elephant all
in the same phone booth! Let's see now...

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Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64231)


bydeepbluehumFriNov04,20112:44pm

The analysis of NDE is wrong. The evidence suggests that there are folks who have memories
consisting of sound, light and form (of the operating room and staff) when their bodies, on
the surgical table, were in a state of clinical death. FAIL!
Lasteditedbydeepbluehum(./memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=1300)onFriNov
04,20112:51pm,edited1timeintotal.
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Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64233)


byKevinSolwayFriNov04,20112:45pm

gregkavarnos wrote:
Do you consider yourself a true Buddhist that is regarded as a nonBuddhist?

That's correct. And anyone who considers me a Buddhist wouldn't be considered a Buddhist.

Ones persons delusions are anothers reality.

I can't agree with that. There's only one reality. If every person has their own reality then
there's no point helping people to overcome their delusions.

the Buddha taught rebirth.

As you know, I have the following interpretation of rebirth.


"Birth" in Buddhism has nothing at all to do with physical birth. "Birth" refers to the birth of
the false "I", which repeatedly arises in nonBuddhas. Likewise "Ageing and death" has nothing
to do with physical ageing and death, but it refers to the ending of the happiness that is
associated with attachments.
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So while it is still called "rebirth" it is entirely different to what is commonly believed and
taught by Buddhist teachers, such as the Dalai Lama, et al.
That which is popularly called "rebirth" is in fact not rebirth at all, but is just a fantasy.

This is just surmise and wishful thinking on your part.

Well no, actually it is not. You said this:


"If you don't receive initiations from a Master then you can't progress
along the path."

And this betrays a complete lack of understanding of Vajrayana practice. Unless


you are, of course, a Vajrayana practitioner that has first hand experience of
the function and nature of initiations. Are you???

The reason I put those words in quotation marks is that they are not my words. I'm simply
relaying what I have heard from many Buddhist teachers and practitioners. These teachers
sincerely believe that you must go through certain formal initiations, with a physical, human
teacher, in order to progress along the path. I have explained to them why they are
mistaken, politely giving clear and detailed reasons, but they are adamant.

How do you know that you are not delusional?

The same way any wise person knows they are not delusional.

Likewise with personal names. To call a person, say, "Light of


Enlightenment", when they spread darkness wherever they go, can't be a
good thing.

You know nothing about the nature of conditioning?

Conditioning is the whole problem. I'd prefer that people weren't conditioned to associate
wholesome words with unwholesome things.
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Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64236)


byKevinSolwayFriNov04,20112:50pm

deepbluehum wrote:
The analysis of NDE is wrong. The evidence suggests that there are folks who
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have memories consisting of sound, light and form when their bodies, on the
surgical table, were in a state of clinical death. FAIL!

"Clinical death" means the cessation of blood circulation and breathing. In other words, it is
not death, since there can still be oxygen in the brain and the brain can still be functioning.
Only when all the oxygen is gone from the brain will the brain cease to function, and this can
take some time.
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Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64237)


bydeepbluehumFriNov04,20112:52pm

KevinSolway wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:
The analysis of NDE is wrong. The evidence suggests that there are folks
who have memories consisting of sound, light and form when their
bodies, on the surgical table, were in a state of clinical death. FAIL!

"Clinical death" means the cessation of blood circulation and breathing. In other
words, it is not death, since there can still be oxygen in the brain and the brain
can still be functioning. Only when all the oxygen is gone from the brain will
the brain cease to function, and this can take some time.

Clinical death is the clinical determination "that's guy's dead." RONG!


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Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64238)


byKevinSolwayFriNov04,20112:58pm

deepbluehum wrote:
The Buddha was plain spoken. Birth means birth, death means death.

You do realize that even in English the word "birth" has a great many different meanings, and
it doesn't mean only the physical birth of the body.
I thank you for your personal interpretation, but on this occasion I think I will reject it, since I
don't believe your interpretation is consistent with the rest of the Buddha's teachings, or with
my reasoning, or with everyday common sense.
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Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64239)


bydeepbluehumFriNov04,20112:59pm

KevinSolway wrote:
As you know, I have the following interpretation of rebirth.
"Birth" in Buddhism has nothing at all to do with physical birth. "Birth" refers to
the birth of the false "I", which repeatedly arises in nonBuddhas. Likewise
"Ageing and death" has nothing to do with physical ageing and death, but it
refers to the ending of the happiness that is associated with attachments.

No, what birth means is you are born screaming and continue in life whining and moaning all
the while. Ageing and death means when you get old, your body starts to hurt and stop
working. When you get sick, you feel like shit. And when you die, you die terrified. The
Buddha was not a philosophizer. He wasn't speaking in code.
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Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64240)


bydeepbluehumFriNov04,20113:05pm

KevinSolway wrote:
deepbluehum wrote:
The Buddha was plain spoken. Birth means birth, death means death.

You do realize that even in English the word "birth" has a great many different
meanings, and it doesn't mean only the physical birth of the body.
I thank you for your personal interpretation, but on this occasion I think I will
reject it, since I don't believe your interpretation is consistent with the rest of
the Buddha's teachings, or with my reasoning, or with everyday common sense.

I don't expect you to buy my brand of bread, but I'm just making a record for posterity. There
are many folks these days trying to redefine what the Buddha said. You're in good company.
As best I can, I try to take the Buddha's words at face value. Give up desires, meditate, no
suffering. Pretty simple.
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Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64241)


byLastLegendFriNov04,20113:05pm

If I may
What is delusion and what is truth?
George Ohsawa said "Freedom is to be found only through slavery. The loveliest lotus flower
grows in the dirtiest mud."
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Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64242)


bydeepbluehumFriNov04,20113:08pm

LastLegend wrote:
If I may
What is delusion and what is truth?
George Ohsawa said "Freedom is to be found only through slavery. The loveliest
lotus flower grows in the dirtiest mud."

Avidya is not delusion. It is unknowing. Being unaware that these 12links are happening.
Becoming aware of it makes it go away.
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Re: are karma and rebirth for real? (#p64244)


byDechenNorbuFriNov04,20113:10pm

KevinSolway wrote:
Dechen Norbu wrote:
Please keep catmoon's post in mind, fellows.

All these warnings, and yet I was thinking the exchange has been rather civil.
I don't think a discussion can be much more civil than this when people are
expressing what they really think. The good thing about this recent exchange is
that noone has resorted to quoting scripture and appealing to authority. One
can only hope that continues.

Don't see it as a warning. It's a reminder after a yawn...


Carry on! After all this is the dharmic free for all...
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