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12/17/2015

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VacuumForPressureVesselDesign
Startedby benoy john,Dec2 4 2 006 08:54 AM

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Post ed2 4 Dec em ber 2 0 0 6 0 8 :5 4 A M

benoyjohn
Dearall,

Iwantedtoknowalittlebitmoreonthe"FULLVACUUM"wespecifyforpressurevesselswedesign.
Ifeelthe"fullvacuum"whichwetalkaboutisnotreallyFULLVACUUM.Thisisbecauseunderrealfullvacuumconditions
thereshallbenomoleculesofthefluidinsidethevessel.Thiswillrequireavesselofinfinitewallthickness?

http://www.cheresources.com/invision/topic/3297vacuumforpressurevesseldesign/

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Thismeansthatthereisanothermorepractical,morerealisticvalueofvacuumwhichistalkedofas"fullvacuum"
Whatisthisvacuumconditions?
Canyougiveyourthoughtsonthis?
AlsoPleasecorrectmeifmyunderstandingiswrong.
Regards
Benoy
WithwishesforaMERRYXMASandHAPPYNEWYEAR.
Post ed2 4 Dec em ber 2 0 0 6 1 1 :1 5 A M

ArtMontemayor

Benoy:
Itisnicetohearfromanoldtimemember(over3years)likeyou.Youhavealwaysbroughtinterestingqueriesandcommentsto
theseForums.
Youaretobeadmiredwiththelogicandprobingcuriosityyoushowwithyourquery.Andyouareabsolutelycorrectwhenyou
statethattheterm"fullvacuum"cannotreallydefineFULLVACUUMasweunderstandavacuumtomean.Becauseitis
virtuallyimpossibletoremovethelastmoleculefromasystemandsubsequentlykeepallmoleculesfromenteringthatsame
systemitisincorrecttoclaimafullvacuum.
Whateducatedengineersandscientistsmeanwhentheystate"fullvacuum"isactuallyaPARTIALVACUUM.Thisis
unfortunatemisinformationthatiscultivatedinourmidstsimplybecauseoftraditionandnothingelse.Thepersonswhodesign
forpartialvacuumknowthis,butpersistincallingitbyamisnomeronlybecauseoftraditionandnothingelse.Youareabsolutely
correctifyoucorrectuswhenwemisstateacondition.
However,themechanicalequationsemployedinASMESectionVIIIdotakeintoconsiderationthestateoffullvacuumand,as
such,dotakeintoconsiderationthatthevesselcouldbeundertotal,absolutevacuumconditions.Consequently,theidentification
oftheratingonthevesselissemanticallycorrectalthoughitwillneverbeachieved.
Youstatethatfullvacuumconditionswouldrequireavesselofinfinitewallthickness.Thisisnottrue,asIinferredintheprevious
paragraphwhichsaysthattheequationsforratingthevesseldoassumeanabsolutevacuum.Inotherwords,youcancontainan
absolute,fullvacuumwithacalculatedvesselwallthicknessatleasttheoretically.Thefactthatyouwillneverachievean
absolute,fullvacuumisanothersubject.
Icanillustratetheabovebyuseofapracticalexample:OuterSpaceisascloseaswecanfindafullvacuuminNature.
Nevertheless,wehavesuccessfulbuiltspaceshipsandsatellitesthatwithstandthisambientwithoutanytrouble.Theshipsand
vesselsweredesignedandbuiltusingtherelationshipspreviouslycited.Sothisisproofthattheequationsworkasbestaswecan
testthem.
Thereal,correcttermthatengineersshouldemployispartialvacuumandthistermshouldbefollowedwithadefinitionofits
statethelevelofthevacuum(mmofmercury,orpsia,etc.,etc.)
Ihopethishelpsexplainyourquery.
FelizNavidadyProsperoAnoNuevo!(AMerryChristmastoall,andaProsperousNewYear!)
Post ed2 8 Dec em ber 2 0 0 6 0 4 :4 4 A M

benoyjohn
Art,
Thankyouverymuch.
Iadmiretheeffortyoutakeinmakingsuchresponses.

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WithBestRegards
Benoy
Post ed0 9 A pr il2 0 0 8 0 9 :3 4 A M

Kashif.Ali
Art,

JustaquickquestionIfwearedesigningavesselforsteamoutconditionsof0barg@240oC+fullVacuum,woulditmean
FullVacuumwillalsobeat240oC.HowisthispossibleastheVacuumisonlycreatedwhensteamcondensationoccurs
(whichmeanstemperaturewouldbelower)?PleasecorrectmeifIamwrong.
Regards
Kashif
Post ed0 9 A pr il2 0 0 8 1 1 :1 7 A M

ArtMontemayor

Kashif:
Theonlythingyoumightbewrongaboutisthatyouspecifythewrongtemperatureforthefluidyouareconsidering.Allowmeto
explainitthisway:whenyoumeasureatemperature,youareactuallymeasuringthemolecularactivityofafluid(inthevessel).
Thecorrespondingtemperatureofsaturatedsteaminyourvesselwhenitisatatmosphericpressure(0barg)is100oCnot240
oC.However,ifyouareusingSUPERHEATEDsteamat240oC(and0barg)thenyouhavetheconditionsyouhavecited
foryourdesign.Thisisthesteamoutcondition(0barg=760mmHg,averypositiveabsolutepressurenotevenapartial
vacuum).
Youarecorrectinassertingthatitisnotpossibleforthevesseltobeundervacuumpartialorfulloncethesteamsaturated
orsuperheatediscondensed,sincethecorrespondingtemperatureofthecondensatemustrelatetothevaporpressureitis
exerting(thepartialorfullvacuum)andwhichiscolderthanthetemperatureofthesaturatedsteam.Theresultingvacuuminthe
vesselwouldcausethetemperaturetodecreasetothecorrespondingtemperatureattheresultingvacuum(thevacuumreading
beingthevaporpressureexertedbythefluidwater,inthiscase).
Butletmestatethatitisquitepossibletoachieveasteadypartialvacuumandatemperatureof240oC.Thiscaneasilybe
accomplishedbysimplychangingthefluidinquestion.AllIhavetodoisselectafluidwhosevaporpressureisequaltothe
desiredpartialvacuumat240oC.
Additionally,althoughyoudidntaskthequestion,itis,inmyopinion,practicallypossibletohavethewallsofapressurevessel
achieveatemperatureof240oCandsuddenlyundergoadeep,partialvacuum.Thisiswhathappensinreallifesituationsoutin
theprocessingplant.Itisanimportantdetailthatmanytheoristsfailtotakeintoconsiderationwhencontemplatingtheultimate
stressesappliedtoavesselswallandthematerialofconstructionsweakenedconditionatthetimeofthestresses.Youcanbe
steamingoutanuninsulatedprocessvesselwithsuperheatedsteamat250oCuntilsuddenly,arainshowerdropscold,
continuousrainonthevessel.Iftheappropriate,properlydesignedventsonthevesselarenotopenatthistimeitisverypossible
tocreateapronounced,partialvacuumthatapproachesfullvacuumcondtions.Thishappensalmostinstantaneouslyandwhile
somepartsofthevesselsuchasthetoproofmaybecooleddownto100oC,othersectionsofthevesselmaystillbecloser
to240oCbecauseofaninherentlagintheheattransferbyconductioninthemetal.Theheatconductionbyconvectionhappens
veryrapidlyandistheprincipalcauseofthesteamscondensationandtheresultantpartialvacuum.Thismaybeareasonfor
conservativelymaintainingavacuumdesigntemperaturethatiselevatedinordertoconsidertheweakenedstressinsomepartsof
thevesselduringinstantaneouspartialvacuumcreation.
IhopeIhaveaddressedyourconcernsandquestions.
Technocrat

http://www.cheresources.com/invision/topic/3297vacuumforpressurevesseldesign/

Post ed1 2 Ma y 2 0 0 8 0 6 :4 2 A M

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VacuumForPressureVesselDesignIndustrialProfessionalsCheresources.comCommunity
ThethicknessofpressurevesseliscalculatedbasedoninternalpressurePibytheequationt=PiD/2fj,butincaseoffull
vacuumtbecomeszero,thenhowonecanfindthevalueoft?
Post ed1 2 Ma y 2 0 0 8 0 9 :0 1 A M

Ali66

QUOTE(Dhirajkumar@May122008,07:42AM)<{POST_SNAPBACK}>(index.php?act=findpost&pid=18668)
ThethicknessofpressurevesseliscalculatedbasedoninternalpressurePibytheequationt=PiD/2fj,butincaseoffull
vacuumtbecomeszero,thenhowonecanfindthevalueoft?

Dhirajkumar,
Isuspecteitherthereisamistakeinwhatyouwroteorthereisaflawinthereasoningyougave.
Obviouslyweneedtousetherightequationwithinitsdefinedrangeofapplication.
Youdidn'tclearlydefinethetermsintheequationanditsintendedrangeofvalidity.
Otherwise,areyousayingthat,forvacuumapplication,thelowertheabsolutepressurethethinnerthewallthickness?
Obviouslyyoucaneasilyanswer,no!
Invacuumservice,thelowertheabsolutepressure,thethickerthewall.Thisvalidstatementalreadycontradictswhatyou
implied.
Ali
Post ed1 2 Ma y 2 0 0 8 0 3 :3 0 PM

djack77494

QUOTE(Dhirajkumar@May122008,07:42AM)<{POST_SNAPBACK}>(index.php?act=findpost&pid=18668)
ThethicknessofpressurevesseliscalculatedbasedoninternalpressurePibytheequationt=PiD/2fj,butincaseoffull
vacuumtbecomeszero,thenhowonecanfindthevalueoft?

ThisstatementagaindemonstratestheimportanceofclearlyindicatingWHAT pressureyouaretalkingabout.Usingthe
Imperialpoundspersquareinch(psi)units,youmaybetalkingaboutgaugepressure(i.e.relativetoatmospheric),
expressedaspsig,differentialpressure(i.e.differencebetweenanytwopressures),expressedaspsid,orabsolutepressureas
psia.Substitutethepressureunitsofyourchoice(e.g.barg,bard,bara),butpleaseALWAYSkeepthesuffix.
Mr.DhirajkumarequationiscorrectfordealingwiththecalculatedmetalwallthicknesstowithstandINT ERNALpressure.
VacuuminsideavesselcanbethoughtofasEXT ERNALpressure,andMr.Dhirajkumar'sequationisNOT applicablefor
thatsituation.
Thewholeideaofspecifyingthatavesselshouldbedesignedfor"FullVacuum"isawellknownand(inmyopinion)sensible
concept.Itisoftenspecifiedforvesselsthatmightundergosteamout,asArtdiscussed.Thoughnoonethinksthatan
absolutevacuumisattained,thevesselwallsmayneedtowithstanddifferentialpressuresthatcouldapproach14.614.7
psid(External).Itisnoteasytospecifyalimit(ortosayHOWclosetofullvacuummightbepossible.)Furthermore,itisnot
importantsinceevenifthroughexcruciatinglydifficultcalculationsyoucouldshow(forexample)thattheminimuminternal
pressurewouldONLYbe14.4psig.Sowhat.EngineeringisALLaboutbeingpractical,whichinthissituationmeans
skippingthecalculationandroundingup(down)tofullvacuum,almostcertainlyaddingFULLYzerotothevessel'scost.
Doug

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