#1

04-30-2009, 08:53 AM martini7B7

on interpretation: does Yahweh care if His holy texts are misunderstood?

the short? based on prior and contemporary evidence, no. that is to say, not once has Yahweh corrected anyone from using His "Word" incorrectly. not once has He stopped anyone from doing something wrongheaded based on twisting His scripture. if man is fallible and man is the one interpreting these texts today and man was the one interpreting them in the not-so-nice past, there is no reason to think that either or both of them are correct. we can walk through some examples but i am sure many of them come to mind. the point to be made is that if Yahweh historically has not cared if His scripture is misinterpreted and used for what would otherwise be considered justification of extremely "evil" acts, there is no way to trust that our modern-day Xians, Muslims, Jews, etc, are acting in accordance with the original intent of those scriptures -- assuming, of course, that there ever was any. some musings while i was out on my run, yesterday. . . __________________

martini7B7 #2 04-30-2009, 11:40 PM Pikemann Urge

A side-issue: morals change as society changes. So interpretation and emphasis on scripture depends on the priorities of society. But one could just defend against your claim: free will! Isn't that swell! John Loftus made an interesting point about Satan: you'd have to be dumber than a "box of rocks" to rebel against infinite power and infinite love free will or no free will. Seriously, if you knew you were going to lose you wouldn't bother. Can any such creature as Satan exist? Surely not. __________________

Pikemann Urge #3 05-01-2009, 12:14 PM martini7B7

Quote: Originally Posted by Pikemann Urge But one could just defend against your claim: free will! Isn't that swell! John Loftus made an interesting point about Satan: you'd have to be dumber than a "box of rocks" to rebel against infinite power and infinite love - free will or no free will. Seriously, if you knew you were going to lose you wouldn't bother. Can any such creature as Satan exist? Surely not. but free will is not a defense so much as an acceptance that this hypothesis is true. no matter how effed up Xians get His word, He has not and will not step in. "because of free will" only cements it! __________________ martini7B7 #4 05-01-2009, 09:45 PM reluctantchristian

Martini: Quote: the short? based on prior and contemporary evidence, no. From a biblical perspective, you are discounting the Babylonian Captivity, Temple destructions, and numerous other ' punishments' handed out to Israel as a nation and people. It's in their own text. It's chock full of Elohim being displeased with 'text interpretation', or the lack of it. But I think that's the greater point of the text. No one can fully live up to the expectation of ' the text'. It's impossible. Pikemann: Quote: John Loftus made an interesting point about Satan: you'd have to be dumber than a "box of rocks" to rebel against infinite power and infinite love - free will or no free will. Seriously, if you knew you were going to lose you wouldn't bother. Can any such creature as Satan exist? Surely not. I just finished the book of Job again. 'Satan' is listed as a participant in the gathering of the 'sons of God'. I think his role has been twisted throughout the centuries. Nothing was done to Job without the full permission of God. God pointed Job out to 'Satan' who had been 'wandering about the earth observing'.

Not omniscient at all, nor omnipresent.. I think in the Hebrew sense, he was God's prosecuting attorney, or, in a modern sense..God's attack dog. He's really not that important of a figure in traditional Hebrew theology, at least as I understand it at this point. From what I gather, the here and now is the most important thing. reluctantchristian #5 05-04-2009, 07:59 AM martini7B7 they were not misinterpreting anything, RC. they were simply sinning against Him -- "backsliding". big difference. __________________ martini7B7 #6 05-04-2009, 08:20 AM reluctantchristian Quote: they were not misinterpreting anything, RC. they were simply sinning against Him -- "backsliding". big difference. I thought that over, and would have to agree with you. I'm still running across words that, in my Bible, the 'Hebrew meaning of this word is uncertain'. That and the belief that some scriptures were 'found' during a temple rebuilding.. reluctantchristian #7 05-04-2009, 09:52 AM martini7B7

yeah, the 2 Kings 22 is total hogwash and is thought to represent the origin of the written Hebrew legends. naturally, the priestly class who happened to have found the "lost" Torah get the lion's share of the animal sacrifices as is written by Moses, himself. how convenient! eta II Kings 22:8-10 describes two readings of the entire scroll of Deuteronomy in a single day, and it has been suggested that the original scroll may have contained a somewhat smaller legal corpus than our present book of Deuteronomy. There are indications that different collections of materials have been brought together or that additions may have been made from time to time. For example, the requirement that sacrifice be made in a single place is repeated (cf. 12:5-7 and 12:11-12) and so are the rules for slaughtering for food (cf. 12:15-17 and 12:20-25). A small collection of cultic regulations (16:21-17:7) interrupts the discussion of the duties of officials (cf. 16:20 and 17:8 ff.). There are four separate introductory statements (cf. 1:1; 4:44 f.; 6:1; 12:1) and two introductory

units (1:1-4:40 and 4:45-5:31; 4:41-43 is from P). There are two concluding speeches, 28:1-69 and 29:1-30:20, and in the second there is clear indication of knowledge of the Exile (cf. 30:1 ff.). There are sudden shifts in person, from the second person plural (cf. 12:1-12) to the second person singular (cf. 12:13-31).18 http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...ll/chap19.html __________________ Last edited by martini7B7; 05-04-2009 at 09:57 AM. martini7B7 tangent to this, but thought i would share another failed prophecy of the Tanach ... Josiah to die in peace: After Shaphan the scribe read to King Josiah from "the book of the law" that had recently been discovered in the house of Yahweh, Josiah sent emissaries to the prophetess Huldah to inquire of Yahweh concerning Judah's fate for having disobeyed the words of the book. Huldah predicted dire things for Judah for having forsaken Yahweh, but she assured Josiah that he personally would fare much better: Quote: But as for the king of Judah, who sent you to inquire of Yahweh, in this manner you shall speak to him, "Thus says Yahweh God of Israel: `Concerning the words which you have heardÄbecause your heart was tender, and you humbled yourself before Yahweh when you heard what I spoke against this place and against its inhabitants, that they would become a desolation and a curse, and you tore your clothes and wept before Me, I also have heard you,' says Yahweh. "Surely, therefore, I will gather you to your fathers, and you shall be gathered to your grave in peace; and your eyes shall not see all the calamity which I will bring upon this place" (2 Kings 22:18-20, emphasis added). Rather than dying in peace, as the prophetess here predicted, Josiah was killed at Megiddo in a battle with Egyptian forces (2 Chron. 35:20-24). Struck by a volley from Egyptian archers, Josiah said to his servants, "Take me away, for I am severely wounded." These were hardly the words of a man who was "dying in peace." He was removed from his chariot and taken to Jerusalem, where he died and was buried. http://www.infidels.org/library/mode.../prophecy.html __________________ martini7B7 #9 05-04-2009, 09:13 PM reluctantchristian

Nice piece on 2 Kings. With all of the info, it's taking me some time to sift through my noggin, as well as some other rescources. I will say that looking at your second link, and a quick cross reference to an old hand-out I have: ' Doctrine of the Deity of Christ', I'm not finding 'ressurection' listed. Lemme see if I can pull a Punkish on this one. Yep. Verbatim: http://www.versebyverse.org/doctrine/deity-christ.html That's my handout. As for the O.T., I'll have to go back to my Bible and take a gander. I'm reading the Psalms at the moment. Historically speaking, It's fitting that Deuteronomy is included in the Pentateuch. It's a nice reconciliation of things. It tries to bring things full circle, considering the history of the moment. Getting back to the Hashem movement, and remembering who and what you ( they) are. Who ever said God was Linear? *EDIT* O.T. ressurection reference..plenty of them in the N.T. Last edited by reluctantchristian; 05-05-2009 at 11:10 AM. reluctantchristian #10 05-06-2009, 09:33 AM martini7B7

should i be paying close attention to anything on the hand-out in relation to my post and raison d'tre? __________________

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