Many people conflate "society," "government," and "authority" as mutually inclus

ive concepts, but they are not.
Unfortunately, concepts like society, the state, government, or "We the People"
are not living, breathing entities, and by ascribing to them a thing that only r
eal objects can possess (in this case, authority), we are committing the reifica
tion fallacy:

Ambiguity in this form is a tool, used either by the ignorant doing "good" even
if their premise is naive at best, or the manipulative who strive for power over
others.
Society can be defined as some arbitrary number of humans, greater than one, liv
ing in close proximity to one another. That alone does not lend itself to us to
be able to deduce the derivation of authority. To do so, we have to define autho
rity:

The first part of the definition deals with what authority is: having the absolu
te sole right to exact obedience from another.
But, how do we gain authority?
For instance, let us imagine that three people--person A, person B, and person C
--are living within close proximity of one another.
1. If person A gives his explicit consent to person B, to allow person B to hold
authority over him, does person B's authority also extend to person C?
2. If person B and person C began trading goods and services with one another, d
oes person A automatically gain authority over 1 or both of them (or neither)?
3. Does person A, person B, or person C have some qualifying, natural characteri
stic that automatically ascribes the right of authority to them over the other t
wo?
Remember when thinking about these questions: we are discussing the right of a p
erson to both make rules and to force others to obey said rules.
Smash the social contract. Tiamat384
Male-Man of Theory
Member

Registered: 30-8-2015
Location:
Mood: Bored
Member was on ATS
48 minutes ago 1,541 148
2,685 20 27
posted on Feb, 26 2016 @ 01:36 link

quote

Authority is derived from consent and/or power.

reply a reply to: CharlestonChew

26 2016 @ 01:43 link quote reply Having the 'power or right to give orders. Things were the way they were not the way you remember them..So one can not answer your questions without knowing the relations of power betw een the three. Things will be the way they will be not the way you foresee them.75 16 posted on Feb. It is a "might makes right" argument and is inherently circu lar logic: "He has the power to enforce his authority and his authority is derived from his power because he can enforce his authority. Having the "power" to hold authority is an immoral argument in the sense that au thority is being justified by one's ability to beat people up who may disagree w ith your authority. If person A consents to be governed by person B. person B's authority does not l end itself to exacting obedience from person C. We could deduce that a uthority is derived from the individual. In that nobody will step up and stop even if abusive or harmful. I just watched parts of Schindler's List again.663 101 48. One misstep and you're dead." .465 325 30 posted on Feb. 26 2016 @ 01:44 link quote reply originally posted by: Tiamat384 a reply to: CharlestonChew Authority is derived from consent and/or power. Within the confines of the Camp the Nazis had complete authority. CharlestonChew Eat Chocolate Spread Anarchy Member Registered: 27-1-2016 Location: Anarchapulco Mood: AntiAuthority Member is offline.. 91 6 89 0. It can't.. Thats from power not from being in the right. intrptr Member Registered: 30-8-2011 Location: Planet Earth Mood: Iconoclastic Member was on ATS 9 minutes ago 24. Things are the way they are not the way you perceive them. Consent is the only moral justification for gaining authority over another human being.

" In the same sense that someone living in Cal ifornia can agree that person A (whether Hilary Clinton. They just have to live close enough to o ne another to count as a "society. Or. Smash the social contract. 26 2016 @ 01:47 link quote reply originally posted by: NthOther Authority is derived from a monopoly on the use (or potential use) of force. for our current use of organizational powers that is the most honest arg ument for what we actually do. Donald Trump. 91 6 89 0.128 946 9. CharlestonChew Eat Chocolate Spread Anarchy Member Registered: 27-1-2016 Location: Anarchapulco Mood: AntiAuthority Member is offline. Tiamat384 Male-Man of Theory Member . Or.75 16 posted on Feb. or Bernie Sanders.532 71 72 posted on Feb. I mean. or Tennessee. etc) may hold authority over them. etc. the people with the guns make the rules. edit on 25-2-2016 by CharlestonChew because: (no reason given) Smash the social contract.So one can not answer your questions without knowing the relations of power betw een the three. There does not have to be any relation. or Florida. 26 2016 @ 01:44 link quote reply Authority is derived from a monopoly on the use (or potential use) of force. NthOther Member Registered: 9-7-2010 Location: Samsara Mood: Funked Member is offline. and somehow that authority extends to people living in Ohio. 2. the people with the guns make the rules.

75 16 posted on Feb. Power and c onsent are the allowances to authority. 91 6 89 0. who do not conse nt to your authority. If you are looking at it that only conse nt is the means to power you are only looking at it from a liberal view point. 26 2016 @ 01:47 link quote reply a reply to: CharlestonChew Your question has nothing to do with morals.75 16 posted on Feb. Power and c onsent are the allowances to authority. to obey you. 26 2016 @ 01:51 link What about the 1st question: quote reply a reply to: Tiamat384 . CharlestonChew Eat Chocolate Spread Anarchy Member Registered: 27-1-2016 Location: Anarchapulco Mood: AntiAuthority Member is offline. There is no justification for the use of power to force people. Simply about authority. My argument is that someone who uses that justification has no authority. 26 2016 @ 01:49 link quote reply originally posted by: Tiamat384 a reply to: CharlestonChew Your question has nothing to do with morals. Smash the social contract. 91 6 89 0. Simply about authority.Registered: 30-8-2015 Location: Mood: Bored Member was on ATS 48 minutes ago 1.685 20 27 posted on Feb. If you are looking at it that only conse nt is the means to power you are only looking at it from a liberal view point.541 148 2. CharlestonChew Eat Chocolate Spread Anarchy Member Registered: 27-1-2016 Location: Anarchapulco Mood: AntiAuthority Member is offline.

Its too late now to stop the process.320 11.696 91 52 posted on Feb.541 148 2.641 1. Tiamat384 Male-Man of Theory Member Registered: 30-8-2015 Location: Mood: Bored Member was on ATS 48 minutes ago 1. Im just answering as IR theory has it and how the actual world works and u sing your definitons. Mood: Burning Member was on ATS 5 minutes ago 3.685 20 27 posted on Feb. Depends on power relations. to allow person B to hold au thority over him.541 148 2. This was your choice you let it in Tiamat3 84 Male-Man of Theory Member Registered: 30-8-2015 Location: Mood: Bored Member was on ATS 48 minutes ago 1. Everyone knows this. does person B's authority also extend to person C? Do you think that person B's authority extends to person C? Smash the social contract. I am taking both a liberal and realist view of the w orld which is how it really works. 26 2016 @ 02:24 link quote reply Authority us derived from a glorious and manly mustache. Look. 26 2016 @ 02:25 link quote reply a reply to: watchitburn . watchitburn Watcher Member Registered: 11-11-2010 Location: In the fire.If person A gives his explicit consent to person B. 26 2016 @ 02:01 link quote reply a reply to: CharlestonChew Except that using your definition it is still authority.685 20 27 posted on Feb.

I love Loki's quote in the first Avengers movie: Loki Is not this simpler? Is this not your natural state? It's the unspoken truth of humanity. Oh. This is a corporate agreement among the members of a society to accept a source . In the end. 26 2016 @ 03:01 link quote reply a reply to: CharlestonChew It might be useful for you to go to the older philosophers like Hobbes and Locke and read up on the concept of the "Social Contract". for identity. 544 44 870 7 25 posted on Feb. truthseeker84 Member Registered: 8-10-2009 Location: Southern California Mood: Member is offline. 26 2016 @ 02:38 link quote reply Animal Instinct perhaps? In nature. Pack Leader. that you crave subjugation. Seems to be part of our genetics that we have to "follow" or "obey" somehow.. Thus." DISRAELI Member Registered: 9-3-2010 Location: Somewhere in the historical record Mood: Member was on ATS 8 minutes ago 9. etc.279 12.036 103 19 posted on Feb." But in my version. Others see it half empty. The bright lure of freedom diminishes your life's joy in a mad scramble for power. you will always kneel.That explains so much about the 1930s. You were made to be ruled . there's always the Alpha. Group Leader. I see a glass th at's twice as big as it needs to be.. I forgot then the old man stood up and said: "Not to men like you. edit on 2/25/2016 by truthseeker84 because: (no reason given) George Carlin: "Some people see the glass half full. Troop Leader.995 1. there's no Captain America and the geezer gets turned to dust .

727 11 3. rather than explicit. That's the US government with the army. lightedhype Member Registered: 26-2-2014 Location: Mood: Member is offline. Personally I like Roseau and even Spinoza on the social contract and freedom. I would throw in Roseau.of authority to provide order amongst them.Isaiah "Does Magna Carta mean nothing to you? Did she die in vain?" . 111 80 225 2 38 posted on Feb. 26 2016 @ 03:17 link quote reply a reply to: DISRAELI You beat me to it. "Come now. 972 43 4. Locke and Kant disagreed about Hobbes state of nature comment. saith the Lord. brutish. 26 2016 @ 03:34 link quote reply It comes from the man holdi ng the largest stick. They all were par t of different revolutions.. 26 2016 @ 04:20 link quote reply From the outfit/badge.161 21 28 posted on Feb.".. Some 'bloodier" than others.336 27 67 posted on Feb.Tony Hancock luth ier Member Registered: 29-10-2014 Location: Mood: Member was on ATS 10 minutes ago 1. . edit on 25-2-2016 by luthier because: (no reason given) reddragon2015 Member Registered: 26-9-2015 Location: Mood: Member is offline. and short" (as it might be again if the anarchi sts got their way). It is best to think of this original "contract" as something implied and only ha lf-conscious. and let us reason together. Hobbes was responsible for the statement that human life without some such arran gement would be "nasty.

The social contract implies that authority is derived from the consent of the go verned. The only reason to use a "social contract" is to excuse any evil done to a perso n under the guise that said person "tacitly agreed" to the mistreatment. 91 6 89 0. Did you read that? A contract can be REJECTED. So. 26 2016 @ 04:23 link quote reply a reply to: CharlestonChew If I'm attacked. 26 2016 @ 05:08 link quote reply a reply to: DISRAELI Have you read my signature by chance? The social contract is complete make believe. but in practice it is used to excuse enslaving person C when person A co nsents to be governed by person B.75 16 posted on Feb. I have the right to fight back." though. when person C gave no such consent. counte r-offer. It is an intellectually dishonest argument for abusing other humans while preten ding any alternative would result in chaos (without being able to see the chaos it causes). I have a right to fight off an attacker whether or not the attacker has granted me consent to do so. Don't want to be robbed? You tacitly agreed to it. 126 53 344 3 45 posted on Feb. natural rights can be a sou rce of authority in addition to consent.South Park even has a bit on it. Don't want to be raped? You tacitly agreed to it. A contract requires review. Psychopaths would rather stick to the ambiguity of the "socia l contract. CharlestonChew Eat Chocolate Spread Anarchy Member Registered: 27-1-2016 Location: Anarchapulco Mood: AntiAuthority Member is offline. Want organization? Build a society on the concept of explicit contracts accordin g to contract law. centarix Member Registered: 1-1-2016 Location: Mood: Member is offline. and acceptance/rejection by all parties involved. because it gives them the power necessary to abuse others w . Don't want to be murdered? You tacitly agreed to it.

ith impunity. Both A and C should cut B out completely. 26 2016 @ 05:17 link quote reply Person B has the potential to exercise some authority over C by using A as a proxy. 760 31 1. MagnaCarta2015 Member Registered: 23-1-2015 Location: Mood: Member is offline. Smash the social contract.494 10 30 posted on Feb. The extent to which B g ains from any trade between A and C is dependent on the level of authority grant ed by A to B and the level of autonomy C is able to exercise when dealing with A . .