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Republic of the Philippines

CONGRESS OF THE PHILIPPINES


SENATE
Pasay City

COMMITTEE ON ACCOUNTABILITY OF
PUBLIC OFFICERS AND INVESTIGATIONS
(BLUE RIBBON)

DATE

Tuesday, March 29, 2016

TIME

11:00 a.m.

VENUE

Session Hall
2nd Floor, Senate of the Philippines
Financial Center, Roxas Boulevard
Pasay City

AGENDA

INVESTIGATION INTO THE ALLEGED US$100


MILLION THAT WAS LAUNDERED IN THE
PHILIPPINES

ATTENDANCE
SENATORS:
HON.
HON.
HON.
HON.
HON.
HON.
HON.
HON.
HON.

TEOFISTO L. GUINGONA III - Chairman


RALPH G. RECTO
- Senate President Pro Tempore
JUAN PONCE ENRILE
- Minority Floor Leader
VICENTE C. SOTTO III
SERGIO R. OSMEA III
AQUILINO KOKO PIMENTEL III
JOSEPH VICTOR G. EJERCITO
SONNY ANGARA
PAOLO BENIGNO BAM AQUINO IV

COMMITTEE ON ACCOUNTABILITY OF PUBLIC OFFICERS


AND INVESTIGATIONS (BLUE RIBBON)
Tuesday, March 29, 2016
Page 2

GUESTS/RESOURCE PERSONS:
Hon. Nestor A. Espenilla Jr.

Officer in Charge, Bangko Sentral


ng Pilipinas (BSP)
Atty. Emmanuel F. Dooc
- Member, Anti-Money Laundering
Council (AMLC)
Ms. Julia Bacay-Abad
- Executive Director, AMLC Secretariat
Mr. Eugene Manalastas
- Chief Operating Officer, Philippine
Amusement and Gaming
Corporation (Pagcor)
Mr. Manuel Huberto B. Gaite
- Commissioner, Securities and
Exchange Commission (SEC)
Mr. Lorenzo V. Tan
- President and Chief Executive
Officer, Rizal Commercial Banking
Corporation (RCBC)
Atty. Ma. Celia Fernandez-Estavillo- Head, Legal and Regulatory Affairs
Group, RCBC
Mr. Raul Victor Tan
- RCBC
Mr. Reymart A. Marbella
- RCBC
Mr. Romualdo S. Agarrado
- RCBC
Mr. Nelson V. Tan
- President and CEO, BDO Unibank, Inc.
Atty. Alvin Go
- Chief Legal Counsel, BDO Unibank, Inc.
Ms. Rebecca Torres
- Chief, Compliance Office, BDO
Unibank, Inc.
Atty. Reynaldo Maclang
- President, Philippine National Bank (PNB)
Mr. Emmanuel Gomez
- Branch Manager, PNB
Ms. Salud Bautista
- President, Philrem Service Corp.
Mr. Michael Bautista
- Philrem
Mr. Kam Sin Wong a.k.a. Kim Wong - Eastern Hawaii Leisure Company Ltd.
Mr. William So Go
- Centurytex Trading
Atty. Silverio Benny Tan
- Corporate Secretary, Solaire Resort
and Casino
Atty. Jomini Nazareno
- External Counsel, Romulo Law Offices
Ms. Angela Ruth S. Torres
- Former Customer Relations Officer
RCBC-Jupiter Branch
Atty. Rene Saguisag
- Former Senator; Counsel for Ms. Maia
Santos-Deguito

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AND INVESTIGATIONS (BLUE RIBBON)
Tuesday, March 29, 2016
Page 3

SENATORS STAFF
Atty. Nicholai Noel Lazaro
Ms. Judith Lee
Mr. Dante Xenon Atienza
Ms. Giselle Anne Campos
G.H. Ambat
Ms. Khristine Joy E. Pulumbarit
Mr. Alemar I. Mosquito
Mr. Joseph Irvin Obenza
Ms. Michel Palma
Ms. Kristel Castronuevo
Ms. Rikka Sotto
Ms. Mini Dumalaog
Ms. Liselle Lucas
Mr. Nyl Mendoza
Mr. Doni Capuyan
Ms. Vina Panes
Mr. Claro Sampaga
Ms. Kathreena Tam
Mr. Arnyl Madayag
Ms. Judith Mijares
Atty. Alain Baguisi
Ms. Margie Manlunas
Ms. Hazel Villarba
Mr. Shielo Reyes
Atty. Lutgardo Barbo
Atty. Valery Joy Brion
Atty. Maria Patricia Rebao
Atty. Dona Paula Mendiola
Atty. Catherine Manahan
Atty. Harold Ian Bartolome
Atty. Daniel Solomon
Mr. Ryan Martin Macalatan
Ms. Ma. Clarissa Lopez
Mr. Ricardo Calimag
Atty. Czarina Dee
Atty. Sheela Millera
Atty. Hector Villacorta
Ms. Cecile Palines
Ms. Joan Narvaez
Ms. Sheryl Vargas
Ms. Ayn D. Nepomuceno
Mr. Dominic Lacbayo

O/S
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Guingona
Guingona
Guingona
Guingona
Guingona
Guingona
Recto
Recto
Recto
Recto
Recto
A. Cayetano
A. Cayetano
Enrile
Osmea
Osmea
Osmea
Osmea
Osmea
Osmea
Angara
Angara
Angara
Angara
Pimentel
Pimentel
Pimentel
Pimentel
Pimentel
Pimentel
Pimentel
Pimentel
Binay
Binay
Sotto
Sotto
Sotto
Aquino
Ejercito
Ejercito
Ejercito
Legarda

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Tuesday, March 29, 2016
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SENATE SECRETARIAT:
Atty. Agapito Rene S. Conchu

Atty. Sarah Lou Arriola

Ms. Josephine DG Herrera

Atty. Fritzie Jane Aduna


Ms. Divina Gracia Ramos
Ms. Remedios Amor Abagon
Mr. Eustaquio Pacapac
Mr. Leonardo Ramirez
Ms. Anna Leah C. Catimbang
Ms. Maribel P. Mendoza
Ms. Jeanne M. Baisa
Ms. Jo B. Cadaing
Ms. Rosemarie J. Ortiz
Ms. Cindell B. Gealan
Ms. Helen S. Gayapa
Ms. Merlene J. Palaganas
Ms. Nida A. Mancol
Ms. Sherill M. Villadiego
Mr. Rommel P. Alger
Ms. Cecilia T. Sotto
Ms. Christine M. Nery
Mr. Ronnie Cabaero
Mr. Menardo T. Bago
Ms. Amity Caragay
Ms. Laarni Vidal
Ms. Abigael Olson
Mr. Reginald Mendoza
Mr. Eric Jalandoon

Director III, Assessment and


Monitoring Service, Blue Ribbon
Oversight Office Management
(BROOM)
Director III, Investigation Service,
BROOM
Director II, Investigation Service,
BROOM
Staff, BROOM
- do
- do
- do
- do
Committee Stenographer
- do
- do
- do
- do
- do
- do
- do
- do
- do
- do
- do
- do
Legislative Page
- do
- do
- do
- do
- do
- do -

(For complete list, please see attached Attendance Sheet.)

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AT 11:43 A.M., HON. TEOFISTO L. GUINGONA III,


CHAIRMAN OF THE COMMITTEE, CALLED THE HEARING
TO ORDER.
THE CHAIRMAN.

This hearing of the Senate Blue Ribbon is

hereby called to order.


Good morning everyone. I understand we have some new
resource

persons.

Lets

get

through

with

the

administrative

requirements.
But first off, let me acknowledge the presence of the Senate
Minority Floor Leader, Senator Juan Ponce Enrile--good morning, sir;
Senator Tito Sotto--good morning, sir; Senator Serge Osmea, the
Chairman of the Committee on Banks--good morning, sir; Senator JV
Ejercito--good morning, sir; Senator Bam Aquino--good morning, sir;
Senator Koko Pimentel--good morning, sir; Senator Ralph Recto--good
morning, sir.
We have some resource persons who are new. I would like the
comsec to administer the oath. Comsec.
MR. CONCHU.

Could we request all the guests who are

appearing for the first time to take their oath, please?


Please raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear to tell the
truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth in this investigation?

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Please say it. [The resource persons who took their oath are Ms.
Nepomuceno, Mr. Marbella, Mr. Agarrado, Mr. Valerio, Ms. Ratcliffe,
Mr. Wong and Ms. A. Torres. All responded in the affirmative.]
Thank you. Please take your seats.
THE CHAIRMAN. All right. Thank you.
We will start with the Chairman of the Committee on Banks.
Senator Osmea, I think you have some questions.
SEN. OSMEA. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Good morning everybody.

We understand that Ms. Deguito is

not here today. And that former senator Rene Saguisag would like to
make a statement on her behalf.
But can we just make it short, Mr. Senator? Would you like to
just tell us why Ms. Deguito is not here and when she will be able to
appear? Can you hear me well, Rene?
MR. SAGUISAG.

Kagalang-galang na Tagapangulo at mga

kasapi ng Lupon ng Lasong Bughaw, magandang umaga po. Kahapon


po ako ay nagpahatid ng isang liham na nagsasaad kung bakit ako
nandirito, napakiusapan over the weekend ng counsel of record, Ferdie
Topacio at kasama niya, na tumayo ngayon dahil out of the country to
discharge a commitment made earlier.

They are just asking kung

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maaaring a weeklong respite and then they are ready to continue


cooperating as they have done before.
SEN. OSMEA. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Senator.
MR. SAGUISAG. And so I need not read this dahil nakakabit na
sa ating record.
SEN. OSMEA. No longer but we did read it and we would like
to thank you. I think the Committee would be willing to allow Ms.
Deguito that respite. But its not a weeklong respite. Its a two
weeklong respite kasi isama mo na iyong Holy Week. Our last hearing
was on March 17. So if you will guarantee that she will be here the
next hearing
MR. SAGUISAG.

Kung mapauunlakan at mapagbibigyan po

kami, well be more grateful than we can say. So itutuloy po namin


ang pagtulong sa Lupon to get the facts and relevant matters.

So

makakarating po iyan sa mga kasama kong manananggol na siyang


counsel of record ni Maia Deguito.
SEN. OSMEA. All right. Ill leave it that to my colleagues.
THE CHAIRMAN. I think we could grant that so that after next
week then we can expect Ms. Deguito to appear.
Okay. Our next hearing is Tuesday, next week.
MR. SAGUISAG. Maraming salamat po.

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And may I state now that I just got out of Makati Med. In fact,
when I was last here, I was in a wheelchair for the necro of Uncle Jovy
Salonga. So baka hanggang ala-una lang po at wala na ang kamandag
nyo. Maraming salamat po.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay then. Thank you, Senator Saguisag.
SEN. OSMEA. May I just make a suggestion na we speak in
English because we have foreign observers and we would like them to
be able to understand whats going on. Thank you.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. Senator Osmea, you have the floor.
SEN.

OSMEA.

Yes.

We

also

understand

representatives of RCBC have a request to make.

that

the

Mr. Lorenzo Tan,

would you like to state that request? Would Atty. Macel?


MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. May I? Your Honor, in case you
would wish to question us on procedures, we would be willing to
discuss with you our procedures but, if possible, in executive session
just because there are so many security features that we will be
discussing and it would be difficult to discuss without compromising the
security of our bank. Of course, we still have our obligation for bank
secrecy even in executive session. But that would be our request.
SEN. OSMEA.
Committee to make.

All right.

Well, thats for the decision of the

But I have some preliminary questions.

You

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brought up again the fact that the Bank Secrecy Law protects the
integrity of the individual accounts. Correct?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.

Yes, there are several laws,

Your Honor, that cover the deposits.


SEN. OSMEA. Yes. Name those laws.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.

The General Banking Act, we

have the AMLA Act, theres the Bank Secrecy Law and the FCDU Law.
There are four laws, Your Honor.
SEN. OSMEA. Now, thats for an account owned by a person,
right? We understand that RCBC already has found out that those five
accounts including Picaches dont exist. Those persons dont exist. So,
therefore, there is nothing to protect. There is nobody to protect.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.

Your Honor, we have actually

consulted with our external counsel and the advice is, the wording of
the Bank Secrecy Law covers the deposit itself. So even if the account
holder, for example, would be fictitious, first, there has to be a court
order determining that. But even if, the bank secrecy still applies to
the deposits. We are very cooperative. We would like to discuss the
details.

And we are actually sharing what information we have with

the AMLC and the BSP. But we are unable to discuss details of specific
deposits and accounts unless there is a

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SEN. OSMEA. So now you are not protecting the person, you
are protecting the deposit.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. No, Your Honor. Thats actually
what the law says.
SEN. OSMEA. Will you read the specific provision in the law?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Section 2 of the Bank Secrecy
Law provides that, All deposits of whatever nature in banks in the
Philippines are absolutely confidential in nature and may not be
inquired or looked into by any person, government official, bureau or
office. There are some exceptions, Your Honor.
SEN. OSMEA. All right. And so that refers to the deposit itself.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. The deposit itself.
SEN. OSMEA. So if those deposits are the fruits of a robbery,
a fraudulent transaction, youre still going to protect those deposits.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.

The law gives the banks an

absolute obligation unless there are exceptions.

Apart from knowing

voluntary and written consent of the depositor, banks may actually be


required to divulge information in certain instances like impeachment,
for example, bribery, dereliction of duty of public officials. There are
specific cases, Your Honor/alicc

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MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. There are specific cases, Your


Honor.
SEN. OSMEA. All right. So in this specific case, if we go into
executive session, you will be able to share those things with the
Committee?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. No, Your Honor. We still have
our obligation in executive session.
SEN. OSMEA. So whats the plus in going to executive session
for the Committee? Because we have to be transparent with the public
and all our hearings are open to the public.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Yes, Your Honor. Your Honor,
we have done our best to be transparent to the extent that the law
allows us. But especially in cases of dollar accounts, only the written
consent of the depositor will allow us to divulge the information. We
are mindful of this obligation.
SEN. OSMEA. Now, who is the depositor in this specific case?
Would the depositor bewho?
You want the consent of the depositor, the depositor does not
exist so whose consent do we get?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.

Your Honor, even if we would

like towe see the loophole in the law and we hope that with this

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hearing, you will be able to address that loophole because we really


are unable to divulge despite the absurd situation.
SEN. OSMEA. Since these funds we agree were stolen from
the Bank of Bangladesh, would you not consider Bangladesh bank the
depositor?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Your Honor, no. Under the law
that would not be the case and I dont think that there is definitive
proof that would allow us.
SEN. OSMEA.

So, therefore, youre saying, Atty. Macel, if I

steal your money and I deposit it in an account, no one can look into
that account to determine whether it was Macels money or not? As to
amount, the date it was deposited, wala.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.

If its a peso account, Your

Honor, and there is a court case with respect to that amount, we can
discuss it in court.
SEN. OSMEA.

Anong court case?

Wala pang court case;

investigation lang.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. But in Senate hearing, sir, on
investigation the law does not allow us to speak about these deposits.

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SEN. OSMEA. All right.

Were getting into a debate but Id

like to know what is the stand here or what is the personality of the
Bank of Bangladesh who owns that money.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.

As far as we are concerned,

Your Honor, we do not know if the Bank of Bangladesh is the owner of


the funds here.
SEN. OSMEA. You dont?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. We do not have any legal order.
SEN. OSMEA.

The whole world knows that the Bank of

Bangladeshwas not?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Yes, Your Honor.
SEN. OSMEA. But this is not their money or you dont know
that its their money?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.

As far as the banks are

concerned and given the current laws in place, it is not for the bank to
determine if the owner of an amount that was robbed has a right to
the account or to the deposits. Its not for the bank, Your Honor.
SEN. OSMEA. Teka muna.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Even if I would want to, we are
unable to, Your Honor.

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SEN. OSMEA.

Teka muna.

Pag hindi natuloyif the notice

from New York had arrived earlier and the funds were not remitted out
of Jupiter into somebody elses account, wouldnt you, the bank, have
had the obligation to stop payment?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. If there is a freeze order from a
court, Your Honor, yes.
SEN. OSMEA. No. Without a freeze order, dont you use your
judgment and stop payment at any point?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. In general, Your Honor, if its a
request for freeze, the best that banks could do under the current laws
would be to allow the parties, the person questioning the sending of
the funds and the account holder to speak. But the bank itself does
not have the right that it has under a freeze order.

So we cannot

return the funds unilaterally in that case. That is what the law allows
us. We really just operate that way, Your Honor.
SEN. OSMEA.

Hindi.

Ano ang gagawin ng bangko, bangko

ninyo, dumating iyong hold order, you got a notice from the Bank of
Bangladesh, you got a notice from the Federal Reserve Bank of New
York?

You know, Id like to inform the body that we hacked a US

bank, not we, but the hackers hacked a US bank that is why it is now

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federal crime and thats why there has been bigger hullabaloo because
tinamaan ang New York.
So we would like to know from you what would you have done if
you had ample notice?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. If we have ample notice, in any
case, the only rights that are given to us would be to file an STR, a
suspicious transaction report, and
SEN. OSMEA. Pero itutuloy ninyo iyong remittance?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. We can hold it for a period.
SEN. OSMEA. No, no, no. Tell me what you would do, dont
tell me what you can do.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.

Under the law, we have not

been given any right to retain the funds, Your Honor.


SEN. OSMEA. I am afraid many bankers would disagree with
you but I guess youre arguing from your point of view.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. No, Your Honor. It would be
SEN. OSMEA. Ako ang bangko, somebody stole money from
Senator Bams account, say, one million pesos, then Bam tells me,
Thats my money, can you stop payment?

Do not make it go any

further. If I were the bank, I would be obligated to stop payment. I


may not give the money back to Bam until he proves its his.

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MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Yes.


SEN. OSMEA. But definitely, I would stop payment.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.

I understand the logic, Your

Honor. But unfortunately, the laws do not reflect the rights that you
are explaining. It would befor example, if a supplier sold a tractor to
a buyer and
SEN. OSMEA. If you have proof that there is legal transaction,
of course, youve got reason.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. If there is proof
SEN. OSMEA.

But if there is no legal transactionI stole

Bams money and I was just transferring the money to somebody else
and I dont have any legal transaction with that somebody, there is no
trade, there is no payment for services
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Yes.
SEN. OSMEA.

you would have to question me first, Teka

muna.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Yes. Then we would slow down
on the processing.
SEN. OSMEA.

In the meantime you would have to stop

payment, right?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Yes.

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SEN. OSMEA. Okay.


MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.

We would slow down on the

processing and make the parties speak. But may I finish my example?
SEN. OSMEA. But you will stop payment?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. We would slow down.
SEN. OSMEA. No. Dont tell me slow down because I dont
know what slow down
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.

Effectively, it would have the

same effect.
SEN. OSMEA. either this goes through or this does not go
through. Isang pindot lang iyan.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.

Effectively, it would have the

same effect, Your Honor. But may I just go back to my example. If I


sold the tractor
SEN. OSMEA. It will not have the same effect and youre not
being very candid with the Committee.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. I am very candid, Your Honor,
on this.
SEN. OSMEA. So what do you mean, you can stop it? You will
stop it, dont you?

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MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.

For a temporary period only,

Your Honor, just to allow the parties to speak.


SEN. OSMEA. I dont care if its temporary or permanent. But
you will stop it until you can do some confirmation?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. No, Your Honor.
SEN. OSMEA. You wont?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. The laws do not allow us that
right. And I would like to finish my example.
SEN. OSMEA. I have talked to several bankers, top bankers,
and they said, Yes, they would exercise their discretion and stop it.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Your Honor, perhaps you would
like to speak with others in this hearing but that is not our reading of
the law. And if I may just finish. If I sold a tractor to someone and
there is a payment order
SEN. OSMEA. So RCBC is different?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. No, Your Honor. All banks have
the same obligations and rights under the same laws.
SEN. OSMEA. But I did ask those banks. And they would stop.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Then
SEN. OSMEA.

Teka muna, ninakaw iyong pera.

Its the

discretion of the bank president or whoever to stop.

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MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. No, Your Honor.


SEN. OSMEA. So what is the use of the compliance situation?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.

That is why, Your Honor, it

would be good to amend the law to give more teeth to the banks.
SEN. OSMEA. Youre blaming us now.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. No, sir, I am not.
Even the regulators do not have that authority, Your Honor.

wish that it would be the case because it would make our jobs easier
and it would not put us in a position where there is logic in what youre
saying and we cannot follow.
SEN. OSMEA. So you are telling the whole world that, Send
your money to the Philippines because we cannot stop the transmittal.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. No, Your Honor. I am not
SEN. OSMEA.

It will go straight to the casino or to the

remittance companyto the casino.


All right. Now, I would like to ask also another question or go
off on a related to that. Every bank has a threshold amount by which it
is warned to examine the incoming deposit because its very
suspicious, right?

In past hearings, wala kayong threshold account

amount.

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11:53 a.m.
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MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.

Sir, ifactually that would be

the subject of our request for executive session.

If thats the

procedure, our operations head is here and he can discuss the details.
SEN. OSMEA. No. This is nothing secret. I mean, you either
have a threshold amount or you dont and you have already
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.

We have a threshold amount.

Yes, Your Honor.


SEN. OSMEA. What is the threshold amount?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.

At that time, sir, it was 1

billion.
SEN. OSMEA. One billion pesos?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Yes, Your Honor.
SEN. OSMEA. Or roughly $20 million?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. More or less.
SEN. OSMEA. More or less. So if it was less than that, you
dont go up to higher ups?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.

Even with the threshold, Your

Honor, there is no requirement to elevate it to senior management. It


is still at the settlements department.

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SEN. OSMEA.

Thats very interesting.

So $20 million, you

dont elevate it to senior management. Let meI want Mr. Tan to


respond to my question.
Mr. Tan, continuing my line of questioning of Atty. Fernandez. At
what amount would you have been forewarnedshould you have been
forewarned or alerted by your officers?
MR. L. TAN.

As Atty. Fernandez mentioned, Your Honor, we

have a one billion threshold. /mpm

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MR. L. TAN. one billion threshold.


SEN. OSMEA.
MR. L. TAN.
these remittances.

Pesos?

Yes.

And most CEOs dont hear anymore about

Like in the case of RCBC, we probably had 50

remittances of one billion or more the past three years and we dont
hear about these remittances, you know, because most of the time we
are either in meetings or out of the country.

We only hear about it

when there is a problem.


SEN. OSMEA.

And like in this case, you didnt hear about it,

so now you have a problem.


MR. L. TAN. Well, I found out when it became an issue.
SEN. OSMEA.

Answer my question, you didnt hear about it

and this became a problem. I thought compliance rules meant for you
to be adequately forewarned.
MR. L. TAN. No, sir. They raised the issue to me, but after the
funds had left already.
SEN. OSMEA.

Yeah. But if you had gotten the issue raised

before the funds had left.


MR. L. TAN.

I will still rely on the inputs from our Compliance

and our Legal Department on what we can do, sir.

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SEN. OSMEA.

That doesnt answer my question. What would

you do, you will pass the decision to them?


MR. L. TAN. Well, we always base our decision, sir, based on
what we can do under the law and our existing policies.
SEN. OSMEA.

Well, Atty. Fernandez just said that you would

not stop it because you are not allowed to stop it under the law.
MR. L. TAN. Thats right, sir.
SEN. OSMEA.

All right. Would you have picked up the phone

and call the Central Bank governor instead and said, Ive got a
problem?
MR. L. TAN. Well, under bank secrecy, our obligation, sir, is to
file the appropriate STR report and let the AMLC deal with the
SEN. OSMEA.

That means a few days delay. Like in this case,

it took you several days to file the suspicious transaction report.


MR. L. TAN. Under AMLC policy, sir, you are given 10 days to
submit the STR report and under regulation
SEN. OSMEA.

Thats right. And by that time, the money is

long gone as we saw.


MR. L. TAN. Yes, thats the

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SEN. OSMEA.

But I would like to know, based on the

practices of RCBC, at what point would you have been alarmedat


what point would your officers have had to go up to the CEO and say,
Boss, I think you really have to take a look at this? What would that
amount be?
MR. L. TAN.

Well, its probably when instincts kick in, sir.

dont think its the amount. They go to us for a business decision from
time to time, but
SEN. OSMEA.

In this case, Mr. Tan, you have four accounts

dormant accounts, absolutely no economic activities: $6 million, $20


million, $25 million, $30 million, totaling $81 million, and they did not
go to you and say, Chief, these four accounts, all dormant, suddenly
received this P1 billion average each.
MR. L. TAN. No, sir, they did not go to me because
SEN. OSMEA.

Okay. Should they have gone to you?

MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. No.


MR. L. TAN. Well, we have existing
SEN. OSMEA.

Ms. Macel.

MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Sorry.

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MR. L. TAN. We have existing policies on controls, Your Honor,


and as CEO, you assume that their responsibilities are being done.
SEN. OSMEA.

All right.

Now, supposing $100 million each

had been deposited into the account, they would have not gone to
you?
MR. L. TAN. I think in that case, they would have gone to me.
I mean, its like the difference between lending a 50-million clean loan
versus a billion clean loan. Instincts come in.
SEN. OSMEA.

Ayan, so mayroon kang threshold amount. I

am trying to determine whats the threshold amount, you said its


about $22 million. And so, if you had 100 anonymous fake accounts
and they each received $22 million or less, it doesnt come to the
CEOs attention?
MR. L. TAN. Thats why in my opinion, Your Honor, thresholds
can only give you protection at a certain point because people will find
out what your threshold is and then they will remit below that.

mean, that happened when we started filtering OFW remittances. The


limit was 10,000, so some people were remitting 9,000, you know, 10
times or 40 times.

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SEN. OSMEA.

Thats right. But we are not talking about

$10,000 here.
MR. L. TAN. I think what will really catch dirty money would be
having intelligent systems in your bank, like what you have in global
banks today.

I mean, even if you have modern software, you still

need instincts to kick inyour compliance people, your operations


people, your sales peoplethey all have to use their judgment.
SEN. OSMEA.

You know, if all the other banks have threshold

amounts of $1 million, $2.5 million, maximum of $5 million, yours is at


$22 million, you are way out of line vis--vis your other peers from the
banking community.
MR. L. TAN. Your Honor, I think it depends on the size of your
bank. You know, our total assets as of yearend was P530 billion, so I
think one billion was a reasonable amount at that time. Now, because
of this experience
SEN. OSMEA.

Mr. Tan, the banks I talked to were all much

bigger than RCBC and they all have threshold amounts of thatone
million, 2.5 million.
MR. L. TAN.

Well, again, Your Honor, its a balancing act.

If

you lower the amount, commerce will be affected because some of

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these remittances are meant to pay certain obligations. Like if you are
dealing with the capital market
SEN. OSMEA. Only for RCBC? I mean, you were president of
the Bankers Association of the Philippines for two years, so surely you
knew exactly what the other banks also were doing, what their
thresholds...
MR. L. TAN. Unfortunatley, Your Honor, we dont share notes
on thresholds and things like that.

But some banks have similar

systems
SEN. OSMEA.

Would have the AMLA compliance been one of

your concerns as president of the Bankers Association of the


Philippines?
MR. L. TAN.
AMLA policies.

Yes, sir.

And I think RCBC was compliant with

I think what happened here is some judgment error

from the people on the ground. I think if you look at our systems, we
have been applying six sigma principles in our processes.

We have

foreign consultants that look at every process of the bank and we have
16 products that we sell to every consumer and every corporation.
Remittance is just one of 16, Your Honor.

I mean, banks have a

thousand processes. If you decide to change the whole kitchen of a

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bank, you have to go through 1,000 processes, and this is one of


them.

I think what happened here is we had the IT controls, the

human controls.

But unfortunately, it failed in the end, in the

execution.
SEN. OSMEA.

And it would fail again because, as Atty.

Fernandez responded, she would not have stopped the transaction


from going through.
MR. L. TAN. We had made changes to our present system to
prevent this from happening again. And if you ask my opinion, Your
HonorI mean, it can happen again.
upgrade to cognitive systems.

The Philippine banks have to

We have to look at our employee

behaviorwhat time they go in, what time they go out, what they do
outside. We have to look at transaction behavior. Only computers can
do that because if you have a bank and you envision to have 20
million, 40 million customers times x number of transactions per
second, there is no way you can have human intervention along the
way. You must combine the people and IT.
SEN. OSMEA.

But the other banks have human intervention.

MR. L. TAN. Well, Your Honor, its like a Formula 1 race, right?

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SEN. OSMEA.

Not as a standard, but at a certain level, they

have human intervention. Like I said, the threshold amounts are $1


million. Now, since these banks are 10 times bigger than RCBC. Their
volume is much, much bigger.
MR. L. TAN.

Its a balancing cost-efficiency and speed, Your

Honor. I mean, in our business, you have to balance cost-efficiency,


speed and control, right? I mean, the global banks, they were hit with
Bernie MadoffFour years, they were in the books of the largest US
bank, right?
SEN. OSMEA.
MR. L. TAN.

Yes.
Nick Leeson brought down a hundred-year old

institution because of poor controls.

This happens becauseits just

like racing a Formula 1 race, you either invest in a Ferrari or McLaren


and have the best driver to drive it.

You need both.

We have six

levels of training program. And yes, we are sorry this happened, but,
you know, its human error, human judgment or intentional.
SEN. OSMEA.

We are trying to determineThats precisely

we appreciate your comments and the Committee is trying to


determine whether human judgment was indeed the main culprit
/jmb

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SEN. OSMEA.

main culprit in this case or the compliance

rules of RCBC severely lacking. But tell me something.


Again,

may

dumating

na

$100

million,

one

account,

no

justification, no legal, no trade, no services. Wouldnt that get up to


you?
MR. L. TAN. Well, if the systems are working, I mean, given
our present system
SEN. OSMEA. Well, we assume that they are working
MR. L. TAN. Yes, someone
SEN. OSMEA. Would it have reached you?
MR. L. TAN. Give me a chance, Your Honor.

Someone

should

really go down there and ask


SEN. OSMEA. Not should. I want to ask you: Would it have
reached your level?
MR. L. TAN.

It depends, Your Honor.

If its a multinational

company with, you know, that reasonable level of business volume, I


dont think it will reach me. But if it was a
SEN. OSMEA. Now, if its a multinational company and this is
in the normal processIm Shell Corporation, I have an RCBC account,

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I normally have transactions, the hundreds of millions of dollars a


month, of course, its going to be not.
But here, Im talking about a specific situation where its an
inactive or dormant account.

Its that $500 in deposit, it suddenly

receives $100 million.


MR. L. TAN. Well, a perfectly working internal control system, I
would hope it really does not need to go to a CEO. The control should
kick in
SEN. OSMEA. No, youre speaking in hypothetical terms. Im
asking you if $100 million had been deposited to the account of, I give
you one name, Lagrosas, would you have been alerted under your
current process?
MR. L. TAN. No, Your Honor.
SEN. OSMEA. You would not.
MR. L. TAN. Yes.
SEN. OSMEA.

Two hundred million dollars, would you have

been alerted?
MR. L. TAN. Well, again, if the people feel
SEN. OSMEA.

No, not if.

Would you have been alerted

under the circumstances?

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MR. L. TAN. Theres no policy written that it needs to go to me.


SEN. OSMEA. No, Im not talking about you. Youre talking
about judgment, youre talking about having trained your people to
use their judgment. Correct because a lot of these are judgment calls.
So Im asking you what would their judgment be? May dumating
$200 million, isang account $500 ang deposit, dormant.

Wouldnt I

run up to my boss and say, Boss, what do I do with this?


MR. L. TAN. Well, Im hoping that, you know, the compliance
people and
SEN. OSMEA. No. Would they have come up to you or not?
Dont hope.
MR. L. TAN.

I would think that the group head and the

compliance people should be able to solve that problem.


SEN. OSMEA. Themselves?
MR. L. TAN. Yes, sir.
SEN. OSMEA. All right. If the amount were $400 million?
MR. L. TAN.

Well, again, if its extraordinary or unusual,

probably they will


SEN. OSMEA.

How extraordinary can that be?

How

extraordinary do you want it to be?

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MR. L. TAN.

Its really based on experience, Your Honor.

mean, you know


SEN. OSMEA. Yes, and so? Lets be more specific. Were not
sophisticated bankers so wed like to know what would be that warning
sign that would alert your people to tell you that something fantastic is
happening?
MR. L. TAN. If its beyond reason or, you know, beyond the
ordinary course of the
SEN. OSMEA. Would you consider $400 million within reason
or beyond reason?
MR. L. TAN. Your Honor, we just raised $400 million last year,
right?

And since its going to RCBC, I dont think the banks would

question something like that.


So, you know, if its to a Mr. Juan Dela Cruz whos a salaried
employee, I think it would raise alarm bells in the bank.
SEN. OSMEA.

Im talking about a dormant account with

US$500 suddenly receiving $400 million.


MR. L. TAN.

Well, the appropriate procedures would kick in,

Your Honor. You know, the STR report and things like that

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SEN. OSMEA.

Yes, I know.

But youre always talking

hypothetically. Id like you to tell me, would $400 million have alerted
your boys to tell you, Take a look at this because
MR. L. TAN. I think eventually they will inform me. But I dont
think, you know
SEN. OSMEA. Eventually?
MR. L. TAN. Yes. I dont think theyll have to inform me the
same day.
SEN. OSMEA. If it were $800 million?
MR. L. TAN. I think 800 is really out of whack, you know.
SEN. OSMEA. You mean, its impossible.
MR. L. TAN.

Well, no.

I mean, of course, it will ring major

alarm bells, right?


SEN. OSMEA. And you would be informed?
MR. L. TAN. I think at the end of the day, they will inform me.
SEN. OSMEA. At the end of what day?
MR. L. TAN. At the end of the day when the remittance came
in.
SEN. OSMEA. So if the remittance came in at eight oclock in
the morning, youll only find out at night.

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MR. L. TAN. Based on our present system, yes, sir.


SEN. OSMEA. Oh my! Well, at this point, Mr. Chair, with your
permission, perhaps youd like to
THE CHAIRMAN. Yes, yes.

We have here a table.

Will you

hold this please?


As we all know, the amounts involved was $950 million, okay.
Eighty-one

million dollars went through the system, went to RCBC.

And another $20 million was the subject of a stop order by the Federal
Reserve on its way to Sri Lanka. Were talking about 35 payment
instructions totaling $951 million.
Now, five payment instructions went through. This one covers
the 30 payment instructions that did not go through. What is notable
here is that all payment instructions were created on the same day,
February 5, 2016.

What time? All 30 payment instructions totaling

$850 million were created in two seconds12 midnight and 51


seconds (12:00:51) to12 midnight, 51 minutes and 51 seconds
(12:51:51), 12 midnight, 51 minutes to 52 seconds (12:51:52). Two
seconds, $850 million payment instructions were created.
Now, its all stated here that the beneficiary bank or the bank to
which the payment instructions were to be sent, the $850 million, all

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of it, is in the name of RCBC.

All of it, $850 million. And then from

RCBC, the $850 million would have gone to the five fictitious
accountsRalph Picache, Michael Cruz, Jessie Lagrosas, Alfred Vergara
and Enrico Vasquez. Five fictitious accounts, each having $30 million
payment instructions, $30 or $20 million.
another five names, the same names.
succession.

And then after that,

So it goes round and round by

Iniikot-ikot lang, succeeding names.

So that is what we see and that is what would have happened if


the Federal Reserve Bank of New York honored the payment
instructions.

Luckily, because of their diligence, they did stop these

30 payment orders.
In fact, the Federal Reserve sent a Telex or as message to the
Bank of Bangladesh and they were asking the following information:
No. 1, they say, We would greatly appreciate if you could provide us
with more information on these transactions, specifically please
provide the following: No. 1, full information of the beneficiaries
Alfred Vergara, Jessie Christopher Lagrosas, Michael Cruz, Enrico
Velasquez, Ralph Picache. Then they go on and said, Please include
their occupation, connection to the originating party which is the Bank
of Bangladesh, and the website reference, if possible.

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Then No.2, What is the professional relationship, if any,


between the five individual beneficiaries; Then, No. 3, Full details of
the underlying goods or services covered by these payments.

suppose/jbc

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THE CHAIRMAN. I supposedthey supposed that these were


for the purchase of goods or services.

So they were asking details.

And number four, which is very intriguing, why are these payments
that represent repayment of institutional loans being made to these
individual beneficiaries. So, in other words, they were wondering why a
central bank is dealing with individual beneficiaries.

As we all know,

central banks do not deal with individuals. So what is remarkable here


is that had it gone through, it would have all850 million or 951
million minus the 20 million for Sri Lanka would have all gone to RCBC
and then into the accounts of the fictitious persons.

That would be

the line of reasoning that Senator Osmea was trying to cull.


Senator Osmea.
SEN. OSMEA.
MR. L. TAN.

Mr. Tan.
I think in that case, Your Honor, it will elicit a

different reaction from the people below.


SEN. OSMEA. Different reactionwhat reaction would that be?
MR. L. TAN.

Well, because the amount is so outrageous.

mean, its like a credit card that averages a thousand dollars a month
then all of sudden its charging a hundred thousand. You know, it will
be a different reaction from the team.

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SEN. OSMEA. Thats right, Mr. Tan, as a matter of fact. This


was a credit card that didnt even average a thousand dollars a month,
it averaged zero a month. So thats why the Committee wanted to
learn from you what would have triggered a stop payment on the part
of RCBC and I guess you are saying that it would only have come up to
all in all $950 million. Pag dumating doon, mag-i-stop ka na ng
payment?
MR. L. TAN.

No, Your Honor. You know, even in the 81, we

had hold orders that were implemented right-SEN. OSMEA.


MR. L. TAN.

You mean, the original deposits?

Yes.

SEN. OSMEA.
MR. L. TAN.

Which 81?

You had hold orders?

Yes.

SEN. OSMEA.

But you see the money went through.

And

were trying to find out when will you act to stop the payment. And,
obviously, you said, Well, $81 million, its up to my lower guys to
determine whether it should come up to me. But at $850 million, it
will definitely be brought to your attention.

And you are not telling

the Committee whether you would have executed a stop payment or if

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you would have allowed the $850 million to go through because the
law does not allow you to stop the payment.

We would like to know.

Would you like to respond, Mr. Tan?


MR. L. TAN.

Well, you know, Id like to discuss details of what

happened in that specific transaction, Your Honor, but again because


of bank secrecy, we cannot disclose-SEN. OSMEA.

No, we are not talking about a specific

transaction any longer, Mr. Chairman, because these amounts did not
go through. They were held by New York, US$850 million all supposed
to have been transmitted to RCBC. In the same manner that the first
four accounts were from New York. Kaya tinatanong ho ng Committee
kailan ba kayo mag-a-aksyon? When will you take action under your
internal rules?
MR. L. TAN.

Those transactions were subjected to the end of

day review, Your Honor.


SEN. OSMEA.
MR. L. TAN.

End of day?

Yes.

SEN. OSMEA.

Kapag dumating ng 8:00 oclock in the

morning, itutuloy ng branch manager mo iyan and the money would

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have been long gonelong gone, goodbye before it comes to you at


the end of the day. Thats very poor compliance.
MR. L. TAN.

There is a person from head office that looks at

end of day transactions, Your Honor.


SEN. OSMEA. Kaya nga tinatanong ko, if you wait till the end
of day, the money would have been remitted already. Thats exactly
what happened in this case. Ms. Deguito got the notice around 10:50
11:20--11:3011:4011:50 tinuloy iyongand sent it to Philrem.
MR. L. TAN.

There are supposed to be two controls. One is

money arrives at the branch, the branch managers job is to do their


KYC procedures and policies. Then at the end of the day, at the
settlements

department,

someone

looks

at

the

summary

of

transactions then they start noticing big transactions like this one.
SEN. OSMEA. Uy mali, get it back. There was an order from
AMLC pero it was too late. How much will be freeze there, $60,000?
Please do not nod your head; youll have to speak into the mike,
Ms. Abad.
MS. ABAD.

Your Honor, just aroundas far as the four account

holders are concerned, just around US$68,000.


SEN. OSMEA.

Three thousand dollars?

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MS. ABAD.

Sixty-eight thousand

SEN. OSMEA.
MS. ABAD.

Sixty-eight thousand dollars?

dollars were left for those four accounts.

SEN. OSMEA.

Tingnan mo, you froze it. You froze a $68,000

but you wouldnt freeze $81 million, thats what you are telling us.
Yes.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.

Your Honor, actually that was

a judgment call that we made notwithstanding the limitations that we


had under the law. We decided to just return the funds.
SEN. OSMEA.

Kayo naman, oo.

MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.
SEN. OSMEA.

Its true, Your Honor.

You wont stop 81 million but you are so proud

that you stopped the $68,000.


MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.

Your Honor, as we explained,

when a request for freeze came in and I believe I explained it relative


to the William Go accounts last time, we sent notice to the branch to at
least find out what is what about, to find out more. It wasnt a freeze
order from a court. And, unfortunately, within 30 minutes, the branch
manager implemented the deposits to the William Go account.

So

thats really what happened, Your Honor.

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SEN.

OSMEA.

Yes,

thats

why

what

was

asking

hypothetically, if you had learned and you had been alerted of this,
would you have put a stop to it? Even if its a temporary stop for one,
two days until you can validate.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.
SEN. OSMEA.

Yes.

Kasi if you had done your homework, you put

a stop to this, siguro in less than two hours you will find out that those
four accounts were fake.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.

Yes. Your Honor, in that case,

it would be elevated to me and, probably, I would have made a


judgment call to stop it despite the possibility of being sued by the
account holders. It would have been elevated to me and I would have
made that judgment call.
SEN. OSMEA.

We are recommending to Mr. Tan to appoint

you as executive vice president in charge of compliance.


In any case, Mr. Chairman, we would like to inform the
Committee that we received this information from the Bank of
Bangladesh through the kind efforts of Ambassador Gomes. And if we
have an official transmittal letter from Mr. Badrul Haque Khan, General
Manager of the Accounts and Budgeting Department, Bangladesh Bank

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(Central Bank of Bangladesh). And they verified that they sent us this
list with the amounts involved, the names, the date, the account
numbers. I would like to submit this to the Committee for its records.
THE CHAIRMAN.

Yes.

At this point, we would like to

acknowledge the presence of the ambassador of the Peoples Republic


of Bangladesh, His Excellency John Gomes, good morning, sir.

Good

morning, Your Excellency. Thank you.


Okay.

Let us now go to Mr. Kim Wong.

Mr. Kim Wong, paki-MR. WONG.

Your Honor, pwede ba po ako magbigay ng

opening statement ko?


THE CHAIRMAN.

Oo, sige. Hindi naman siguro masyadong

mahaba, ano?
MR. WONG.

Hindi naman po.

THE CHAIRMAN.

Okay. Kasi mas gusto namin iyong ikwento

mo iyong kung ano ang nangyari. Pero please proceed, go ahead.


MR. WONG.

Thank you po.

Ako po si Kam Sin Wong. Kim Wong po ang tinawag sa akin ng


mga kaibigan ko po.

Fifteen years ago, naimbestigahan na din ako ng

Senado. Pero hindi po ako ang Kim Wong/rjo

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MR. WONG.

ang Kim Wong na nili-link sa drugs.

Sa

katunayan, hindi po ako nakasuhan at wala din po negative findings


ang Senado sa akin po.
Nandito po ako para sabihin ang aking nalalaman sa issue na
money laundering na iniimbestigahan ng inyong Committee.
Marami

pong

akusasyon

laban

sa

akin

at

sa

maraming

malalaking tao, nandito ako para sabihin ang totoo at sabihin ang
aking nalalaman.
Itong negosyo namin sa casino, mayroon po kaming rules.
Kailangan magsabi ng totoo kahit anumang mangyari.
Una, wala akong kinalaman sa pagpeke ng bank documents para
pumasok ng pera sa bansa.

Hindi ko alam ang pinagmulan ng $81

million.
Pangalawa, dalawang foreigners ang nagpasok ng $81 million,
isa sa kanila ay matagal nang labas pasok sa Pilipinas at kilalang
junket agent at high roller.

Para makatulong sa mga imbestigador,

ilalagay ko sa isang sealed envelope ang kanilang pangalan at kopya


ng passport at isa-submit ko sa Committee.

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Pangtatlo, si Maia ang nagpeke ng sinasabing limang bank


accounts. Isang foreigner lang po ang ni-refer ko kay Maia. Mayroon
po akong pangalan at litrato po.
Pang-apat, si Maia at Philrem ang gumawa ng lahat ng paraan
para mailabas ang pera sa bangko.
Panglima, noong lumabas ang freeze order, tinigil ang paglaro ng
mga players sa Midas at Solaire.

Sa aking pagkakaalam, may

natitirang more or less P40 million sa Midas, more or less 100 million
po sa Solaire. Four point six three million dollars nakalagay sa isang
junket sa Solaire, at more or less $70 million ay hindi nakarating sa
casino at sa mga foreign players.
Pang-anim, sa kabuang $81 million na sinasabing ipinasok sa
RCBC, more or less $63 million ang pumasok sa Solaire at Midas
Casino. Ang balanse, more or less $17 million sa pagkakaalam ko po
ay na kay Philrem.
Maraming salamat po. Handa po akong sagutin ang inyong mga
katanungan.
THE CHAIRMAN.

Sandali po.

Sinabi mong 70, one-seven

million dollars?

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MR. WONG. One-seven po. Seventeen po.


THE CHAIRMAN. Nasa Philrem?
MR. WONG. Opo.
THE CHAIRMAN.

Okay.

Mr. Kim Wong, punta muna tayo sa

ano, iyong pagbukas ng accounts. Pakikuwento naman saan nangyari


ito at kailan nangyari?
MR. WONG. Palagi po akong kinukulit ni Maia para mag-open
ng account sa RCBC dahil wala naman po akong negosyo sa RCBC.
So isang araw nakita ko siya, nagkita kami, sabi ko, O kung
gusto mo, mayroon akong player may utang sa akin gustong
magbukas ng account.
So more or less mayhindi ko ho alam, dumating iyong player
ng 10, siguro 11 or 12 ng May 2015 pumunta ho si Maia sa office ko sa
Midas po.
THE CHAIRMAN. Si Maia pumunta sa office nyo?
MR. WONG. Opo. Apat po sila, iyong tatlo po nasa labas. Ako
po at saka iyong junket ko po ay nasa loob ng office.
THE CHAIRMAN. So sa loob ng kuwarto tatlo lang kayo?
MR. WONG. Opo. Opo.
THE CHAIRMAN. Ikaw, si Ms. Maia Deguito at saka iyong

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MR. WONG. Junket ko po.


THE CHAIRMAN. Iyong junket operator?
MR. WONG.

Opo, iyong sinasabi ko pong naka-seal po, nasa

envelope iyong passport.


THE CHAIRMAN. In the sealed envelope.
MR. WONG. Opo.
THE CHAIRMAN.

Okay.

Bago noon, by the way, Id like to

inform everyone in the Committee that Bloomberry has submitted a


reportis

Bloomberry

around?

YesSubmitted

report

to

the

Committee and Im instructing the Comsec to reproduce the copies


with the request of Bloomberry to keep the identities confidential.
MR. S. TAN.

Your Honor, our request is to keep the

confidentiality of the junket operator.

We believe the Committee

should expose the name of the--well, Ding Zhize, the guy who brought
in the funds and the 18 players who played the non-negotiable chips
that were purchased out of the funds that we received from Philrem,
Your Honor.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay, then.
Pinangalanan iyong pangalan, do you confirm sino ba itong mga
ito?

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MR. WONG. Ito po iyong malaking junket operator po.


THE CHAIRMAN.

So sino iyong kasama mo sa kwarto na

kasama ni Maia?
MR. WONG. Iyong sana ipapangalan ko po John, kung puwede
po?
THE CHAIRMAN. O sige, for now John para matuloy yung
kuwento. Sige, pakikuwento anong nangyari?
SEN. ENRILE. Sandali lang.
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. ENRILE.

Bakit hindi mo masabi ang pangalan noong

junket operator? Bakit kailangang ilagay mo sa envelope at naka-seal


at ibibigay mo sa Committee?
MR. WONG. Ay sasabihin ko po kung iyon ang request nyo po.
SEN. ENRILE. Abay kailangan
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. ENRILE. sapagkat bakit
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. Pakisabi na lang para matapos na.
MR. WONG. Opo, sir.
SEN. ENRILE. Sandali lang, ano. Sandali lang.

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Mayroon bang nagsabi sa iyo na kailangan ilagay mo sa sealed


envelope iyong mga pangalan?
MR. WONG. Opo, kasi po
SEN. ENRILE. Sino ang nagsabi?
MR. WONG.

May kausap po ako na mga maghahanap po sa

mga tao na ito, ang gobyerno po natin sa Pilipinas sana maitago para
mahanap po nila.

Pero kung gusto ninyong sabihin ko, sasabihin ko

po.
SEN. ENRILE. Dapat sinabi mo doon sa immigration na huwag
ninyong palabasin itong mga taong ito kung nandito.
Nandito ba iyong mga tao?
MR. WONG. Supposed to be po dapat hindi po nakalabas kasi
po noong March 7 po sinabi ko sa abogado ko po kausapin ang AMLC,
kumbaga makatulong kami. Noong wala namang response ang AMLC
so iyong Solaire, March 10, hinuli niya lahat ng tao. Lahat ng kuwarto,
lahat ng perat chip hinuli ho nila kaya lang wala naman po kaming
magawa kaya nakaalis ho lahat.
THE CHAIRMAN. O sige, sige. Teka muna. Teka muna, lets
put things back in perspective.

Umpisa tayo doon sa pagbukas ng

account, doon muna tayo. Doon muna tayo.

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MR. WONG. Hindi po, gusto niya po buksan o hindi?


THE CHAIRMAN. Hindi, sabihin mo na. Sabihin mo na.
Iyon nga, sasabihin mo kung sino iyong kasama mo doon sa
kuwarto. Sabihin mo na.
SEN. ENRILE.

Sabihin mo.

Sabihin mo na sa publiko para

malaman kung sino iyong mga tao na iyan.

Kailangan na malaman

kung sino ang central personality.


MR. WONG. Shuhua Gao.
SEN. ENRILE. Huh? Ano?
THE CHAIRMAN. Shuhua Gao?
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. ENRILE. Sua Gao?
MR. WONG.

Shuhua Gao.

Ito po iyong passport niya po,

puwede ko ho ibigay ho sa inyo.


SEN. ENRILE. Isulat mo. Isulat mo.
SEN. SOTTO.

Mr. Chairman, may we have the Sergeant-at-

Arms to get a copy of the


SEN. ENRILE. Alam mo hindi ako nakakabasa
SEN. OSMEA. Mr. Chair.
THE CHAIRMAN. Senator Osmea/cbg

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THE CHAIRMAN.

...Senator Osmea.

SEN. OSMEA. I think, for the record, the family name should
be the one that we use. Iyong family name niya Gao, hindi ba?
MR. WONG. Gao, opo, opo.
SEN. OSMEA. G-A-O.
MR. WONG. A-O.
SEN. OSMEA. Okay. Thank you.
MR. WONG. G-A-O po.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. Gao. Okay.
SEN. ENRILE. Sino si Shuhua Gao?
MR. WONG.

Sir, matagal na po ito nag--junket agent ko po,

almost eight years na po.


SEN. ENRILE. Kilala mo siya, huh?
MR. WONG.

Kilalang-kilala ko po.

Matagal na pong nag-o-

operate sa
SEN. ENRILE. Sandali lang, unti-untiin natin.
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. ENRILE. Kilala mo siya?
MR. WONG. Kilala ko po.
SEN. ENRILE. Ayon. Taga-saan siya?
MR. WONG. Taga-China po.

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SEN. ENRILE. Saan sa China?


MR. WONG. Sa Beijing po.
SEN. ENRILE. Beijing?
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. ENRILE. Han?
MR. WONG. Ano po?
SEN. ENRILE. Han, H-A-N? Han siya? Ang ethnic niya Han?
MR. WONG. Ano ho iyon?
SEN. ENRILE. Pabayaan mo na. O sige.
THE CHAIRMAN. Mr. Minority Floor Leader, let us allow him to
make his story first.
SEN. ENRILE. Taga-Beijing, huh?
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. ENRILE. Kailan unang pumasok sa Pilipinas iyan?
MR. WONG. I think 2007 po. Labas pasok po ito.
SEN. ENRILE. May record sa Immigration?
MR. WONG. Opo. At eto po puwede po itanong po sa Solaire
nakapaglaro na po ito ng--natalo po ito ng 450 million po.
SEN. ENRILE. Naglalaro sa casino ito?

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MR. WONG. Opo. May record po sa Solaire po, puwede hong


tanungin. Natalo po ito ng 450 million po kaya po siya may utang sa
akin.
SEN. ENRILE. Two hundred fifty million pesos?
MR. WONG. Four hundred fifty million pesos po.
SEN. ENRILE. Four hundred fifty.
MR. WONG. Four hundred fifty po.
SEN. ENRILE. Sa isang gabi?
MR. WONG. Hindi po. Actually naglaro siya po one week. Nasa
record po ng Solaire nanalo ng 250 tapos napakiusapan kong maglaro
tapos natalo ng 250 na natalo pa ulit siya ng 450. Kaya umutang ako
sa Solaire, sabi ko, Bigyan ninyo naman po ng credit, gustong
maglaro. So, binigyan naman ako ng credit ng Solaire na 450 million
po.
SEN. ENRILE. Kailan iyon?
MR. WONG. I think 2000--early 2000 o late 2014 po.
THE CHAIRMAN. Mr. Senate Minority Floor Leader, can we just
let him finish first and then-SEN. ENRILE. Yes, I will reserve my right to question-MR. WONG. Opo.

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THE CHAIRMAN.

Yes, all senators will have the right to

question.
O sige, ako naman facilitator lang, ano?
So, anong nangyari? Sino ang nandoon sa opisina?
MR. WONG. Eto po, si Mr. Gao.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. So, tatlo kayo?
MR. WONG. Opo.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. Anong nangyari?
MR. WONG. Sabi ni Mr. Gao kay Maia magbukas po ng account,
sabi ko, Refer kita. Gusto ni Mr. Gao na dollar. So, sabi po ni Maia
kailangan corporation, corporate ba. Kasi hindi pa ho ...
THE CHAIRMAN. Corporation.
MR. WONG.

Kulang ang mga tao ko po.

So, hindi ko

masyadong maintindihan. So, sabi ni Maia kailangan limang tao para


gumawa ng isang company para magbukas po ng account.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. Tuloy mo.
MR. WONG. So, sabi ni Gao, Bakit ang hirap yata magbukas
ng account?

So, sabi ni Maia, Ako na ang bahala.

Tapos ay

nagmamadali din po ako umalis. So, sabi niya po siya na ang bahala.
Pagkatapos po-THE CHAIRMAN. Sige, ituloy mo.

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MR. WONG. Hindi ko po masyadong matandaan, two to three


days tumawag siya, ang sabi niya, Kailangan ng $2,500.
ko po, Sandali, tatanungin ko muna kay Mr. Gao.

So, sabi

So, sabi niya,

Ipadala na lang. So, sabi ni Mr. Gao ipadala. So, pinadala 2,500 po
kay Maia. Iyon po ang nangyari.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay.
MR. WONG.

Opo.

Iyong sinasabi niya po na limang tao ko

noong sa Senate hearing, nadinig ko po, hindi po totoo iyon.


THE CHAIRMAN. Na may ibang tao, kayong tatlo lang?
MR. WONG. Wala naman po akong ... sinabi niya limang tao,
hindi po totoo iyon.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. So, ano pa ang nangyari after that?
MR. WONG. Wala na po.
THE CHAIRMAN. Wala na.
MR. WONG. Opo.
THE CHAIRMAN.

Okay.

Doon tayo sa February 5.

May

nangyari ba sa iyo tungkol sa mga nangyari dito sa money laundering?


MR. WONG. February 4 ho-THE CHAIRMAN. February 4. Okay.
MR. WONG.

Opo.

Dumating po si Mr. Gao, sabi niya iyong

mag-i-invest sila sa Pilipinas kasi ang hirap ng casino sa Macau at

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isasara nila iyong kompanya para madala, mag-invest dito sa junket sa


Manila. So, sabi ko, Sige, sino ba ito? Ang sabi niya, Matagal na
itong kaibigan, si Ding. Si Mr. Ding po. Iyong sinasabi niya po siya
po iyong nag-receive ng one point three million six hundred fifty.
THE CHAIRMAN. Mr. Ding. Sino si Mr. Ding?
MR. WONG. Ding Zhize.
THE CHAIRMAN. Ding Zhize.
MR. WONG. Iyong sinasabi po ni-THE CHAIRMAN. Ano ang nationality ni Ding Zhize.
MR. WONG. Macau po.
THE CHAIRMAN. Macau. Okay. Sige, tuloy mo para matapos
mo na ang lahat ng gusto mong sabihin, ikuwento mo lahat and then
we will ask questions.
Sige, tuloy.
MR. WONG. So, sabi ko, Sino nga ito? Sabi niya, Sigurado
mag-i-invest dito. O sige, sabi ko, Tingnan natin kung... Ang sabi
niya may papasok silang malaking pera. Ang sabi ko, Tingnan natin.
Pag may pera dumating--Iyon ang casino rules namin. Pag may pera
po, iyon ang totoong salita. Iyong mga sabi-sabi lang, hindi ho kami
naniniwala doon. Opo.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay.

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MR. WONG.

Next day dahil nagmamadali ako--so, next day,

morning, ang sabi niya, Magkita tayo sa Solaire. Sabi ko, Sige po.
THE CHAIRMAN. Sino ang nagsabi sa iyo magkita kayo? Sige.
MR. WONG. Dalawa po sila.
THE CHAIRMAN. Si?
MR. WONG. Si Ding po at saka si Gao.
THE CHAIRMAN. Si Ding at saka si Gao. Okay.
MR. WONG. Oo kasi sabi niya po may darating na pera. O sige,
ang sabi ko, Sige. Tawag po ako kay Maia, ang sabi niya, Wala po.
Di wala. Ang sabi ko sa kanila, sabi niya, Tawag ka pa, sabi noong
dalawa. Sige, tawag ulit ako. Ang sabi ni Maia ang kulit ko. Ang sabi
ko, Ang kulit nitong dalawa. Tapos tawag na naman ulit ako. Mga
ilang tawag po, wala po.
THE CHAIRMAN. February 4 ito?
MR. WONG. February 5 ho, morning po.
THE CHAIRMAN. Ah, February 5 na.
MR. WONG.

February 5 po, morning po.

Tapos dumating ho

ang almost one something-THE CHAIRMAN. In the afternoon.


MR. WONG. Opo. Tumawag sa akin si Maia, O, may dumating
$6 million.

Sabi ko, Okay.

Sabi ko sa kanilang dalawa may

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dumating ho $6 million.

O, sabi ko, Maia, kung may dumating $6

million, ipadala mo na lahat sa Solaire. Ang sabi niya, Sige. Tapos


tumawag ulit siya, O, may dumating pa, 25. O, di sige, ipadala mo.
Kung puwede, ipadala mo sa Solaire. O, tumawag ulit, O, may 30
pa, may 20 pa.
THE CHAIRMAN. Lahat ito million?
MR. WONG. Opo. So, ibig sabihin lahat ho iyon, iyon ang 81
million po. Ang sabi niya, Huwag mo na akong kulitin...
THE CHAIRMAN. Dollars ito, ano?
MR. WONG.

Opo.

Huwag mo na akong kulitin basta may

darating sa Solaire. Sabi ko po, Kung puwede naman po makikiusap


ako na sabi nitong player sana kung iyan mapadala mo sa Solaire at
may cash. So, ang sabi niya gagawan niya ng paraan po. So, sabi
niya antayin na lang. Opo.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. Tuloy pa. Ano pa ang nangyari?
MR. WONG. Dumating na lang mga 6:30-THE CHAIRMAN. --6:30?
MR. WONG. --6 to 6:30 ng gabi. Sabi sa akin ng-THE CHAIRMAN. Of February 5? 6:30 ng gabi sa February 5
ito?
MR. WONG. Opo.

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THE CHAIRMAN. Okay.


MR. WONG.

Sabi po sa akin ng Solaire, O, boss, may

dumating na doon sa player mo kay Ding Zhize.

Ang sabi niya

Philrem ang nagpadala.


THE CHAIRMAN. Sino po?
MR. WONG. Philrem ang money changer.
THE CHAIRMAN. Philrem. Okay.
MR. WONG. Ang sabi ko, Sino ba iyon? Tapos dumating po si
Mr. Concon po.
THE CHAIRMAN. Sino si Mr. Concon?
MR. WONG. Concon Bautista po.
THE CHAIRMAN. Ah, iyon, Concon Bautista.
Ikaw iyon.
Okay.
MR. WONG. Dumating po siya, sabi niya-THE CHAIRMAN. Anong oras itong dumating?
MR. WONG. Magse-seven siguro po.
THE CHAIRMAN. Magse-seven ng gabi na.
MR. WONG. --6:30, ganoon po.
THE CHAIRMAN. Sa Solaire?
MR. WONG. Opo.

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COMMITTEE ON ACCOUNTABILITY OF PUBLIC OFFICERS AND


INVESTIGATIONS (BLUE RIBBON)
HSGayapa
VII-1
March 29, 2016
12:43 p.m.
10

THE CHAIRMAN. Okay.


MR. WONG. Sabi niya, napakiusapan siya ni Maia na tulungan.
Sabi niya, Hindi dapat ako makialam diyan. Si Maia ang nagkulit na
pakiusapan siya.

So, sabi ko, Thank you po.

So, sabi ni Concon,

iyong pinapo-produce ni Maia na pera na-produce niya P80 million po,


dala niya po.
THE CHAIRMAN. One-eight o eight-zero?
MR. WONG. Eight-zero million pesos po.../hsg

61

COMMITTEE ON ACCOUNTABILITY OF PUBLIC OFFICERS AND


INVESTIGATIONS (BLUE RIBBON)
MJPalaganas
VIII-1
March 29, 2016
12:53 p.m. 1

MR. WONG.

Eight-zero million pesos po.

THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.

Opo.

THE CHAIRMAN.
SEN. SOTTO.

Dala niya?

Opo, ng tao niya.

THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.

Okay.

Dinala niya?

THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.

Eighty million pesos po.

Cash, dala niya.

Yes po. Tapos sabi niya, iyong kakulangan na 20

million, dadalhin ni Maia.


THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.

Okay.

Twenty million pesos po.

So dumating si Maia po
THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.

Mga anong oras dumating?

Iyong base po sa record po ng Solaire, iyong

sasakyan niya po vinaley (valet) po is 7:57:35 seconds. Ito po iyong


sa Solaire po, sasakyan po ni Maia po. [Mr. Wong shows a picture.]
THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.

Ayun. So may CCTV snapshot.

Opo. Mayroon pa pong iba pa.

THE CHAIRMAN.

Okay, So 7:57, halos mag 8 oclock na rin?

62

COMMITTEE ON ACCOUNTABILITY OF PUBLIC OFFICERS AND


INVESTIGATIONS (BLUE RIBBON)
MJPalaganas
VIII-1
March 29, 2016
12:53 p.m. 2

MR. WONG. Opo.


THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.

Okay.

Hindi, vinaley ho (valet). Ibig sabihin mas maaga

siyang dumating kasi kinuha pa ito.


THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.

Bale ho pagbaba.

THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.

Okay, sige.

Opo.

THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.

Kinuha, okay.

Okay, ituloy ninyo po.

Tapos po, sabi ho ni Concon, itong 100 million

dapat may receive iyan. Syempre, di ba po? So ibinigay ko po iyon


kay Weikang Xu na password po. Iyong Weikang Xu na sinasabi
ninyong
THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.

Opo, in peso po.

THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.

Bakit naging 100 na?

Di ba 80 plus 20 po, 80 million plus 20 million?

THE CHAIRMAN.
VOICES.

Teka, sabi mo 100 million.

Sinong nagdala noong 20?

Si Maia.

MR. WONG.

Si Maia po.

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COMMITTEE ON ACCOUNTABILITY OF PUBLIC OFFICERS AND


INVESTIGATIONS (BLUE RIBBON)
MJPalaganas
VIII-1
March 29, 2016
12:53 p.m. 3

THE CHAIRMAN.
SEN. ENRILE.

Pinapaklaro ko lang. So okay.

Cash iyon?

THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.

Cash iyon, Mr. Kim?

Cash po.

THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.

Okay.
Mayroon pong patunay iyan, itong cash na

pagdating po dahil nagmamadali iyong player ko, sila Ding, si Gao,


tsinek-in (check-in) ko. Kasi mayroon po kaming rules na usapan.
Basta lahat ng pera pumasok dito, ang usapan dito lahat lalaruin sa
casino.
Kasi

ang

casino

po,

kami,

mayroon

kaming

gentlemen

agreement. So ito dineposit (deposit) ko po, mayroon pong picture na


February 5, 8:07, inakyat ko po sa isang junket, 100 million. At pwede
po i-check sa Solaire.
THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.

Tinanggap po iyong 100 million, patunay iyan.

THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.

Okay. You are showing us a picture of

Na tinanggap iyong 100 million sa Solaire?

Opo.

THE CHAIRMAN.

Okay. Iyong picture na iyan, galing sa

Solaire din? Iyong ipinakita mo, galing sa Solaire iyan?

64

COMMITTEE ON ACCOUNTABILITY OF PUBLIC OFFICERS AND


INVESTIGATIONS (BLUE RIBBON)
MJPalaganas
VIII-1
March 29, 2016
12:53 p.m. 4

MR. WONG.

Mahirap hong sabihin. Pero ito ang patunay.

THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.

Pati oras po, may oras po.

THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.

Okay.

May date ho, February 5.

THE CHAIRMAN.
SEN. ENRILE.
MR. WONG.

Okay, sige. Ituloy mo.

Sinong kumuha noong picture?


Ako po.

SEN. ENRILE.
MR. WONG.

Ikaw?
Ako po.

SEN. ENRILE.

Marunong ka talaga.

THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.

Hindi. Saan kinuha iyon?

Sige, ituloy ninyo po.

Opo. Nai-deposit sa junket na po tapos kumain

kami.
THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.

Kami ni Concon pa at saka si Maia.

THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.

Si Maia, si Concon at ikaw, kumain?

Oo. Sa Korean restaurant po, sa Kiwa.

THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.

Sino kayong kumain?

Kiwa.

Opo.

65

COMMITTEE ON ACCOUNTABILITY OF PUBLIC OFFICERS AND


INVESTIGATIONS (BLUE RIBBON)
MJPalaganas
VIII-1
March 29, 2016
12:53 p.m. 5

THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.

Opo.

THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.

Korean restaurant, sa Solaire din iyon?

Okay.

Tapos po, February 9, ako po ang kumuha sa

bahay ni Concon ng 100 millioncashpesos.


THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.

Opo.

THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.

Concon Bautista ng Philrem?

Opo.

THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.

Sa bahay nino?

Ni Concon po.

THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.

One hundred million pesos cash.

Opo.

THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.

February 9?

Okay.

At three million dollars po.

THE CHAIRMAN.

So 100 million pesos and three million

dollars?
MR. WONG.

Opo.

THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.

All in cash?

Opo.

66

COMMITTEE ON ACCOUNTABILITY OF PUBLIC OFFICERS AND


INVESTIGATIONS (BLUE RIBBON)
MJPalaganas
VIII-1
March 29, 2016
12:53 p.m. 6

THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.

Okay.
February 10, kumuha po ako ng two million

dollars sa bahay niya.


SEN. SOTTO.

Dollars?

THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.

Iyong two million, ano iyon, dollars?

Two million dollars po at saka 100 million pesos,

February 10.
THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.

One hundred million pesos?

Opo. February 14 po, kumuha ako ulit ng isang

100 million. So total po, 400 million100 million sa Solaire, 300


million sa bahay niya at saka five million US dollars cash.
THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.

So 400 million cash?

Hindi. Iyong 100 dineliver (deliver) sa Solaire;

300 million, kinuha ko po sa bahay niya


THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.

--9, 10, 14.

THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.

--9, 10 and 14.

Opo.

THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.

On three dates, anong date iyon?

Okay.

At saka five million dollars ho, cash.

67

COMMITTEE ON ACCOUNTABILITY OF PUBLIC OFFICERS AND


INVESTIGATIONS (BLUE RIBBON)
MJPalaganas
VIII-1
March 29, 2016
12:53 p.m. 7

THE CHAIRMAN.

Five million. Tapos anong breakdown ng

five million? Kailan mo kinuha iyongsabi mo may three, may two,


ganoon ba iyon?
MR. WONG.

Oho. Isang February 9, three million; February

10, two million dollars po.


THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.

Okay.

Ito pong umpisa ito, itong dollars po, kasi iyong

300 million na kinuha ko, nai-deposit sa junket. Itong dollars po,


gustong kunin nitong mga junketssi Gao at saka si Dingmedyo
doon nag-away na ho kami kasi po ang gentlemen agreement, walang
kukuning cash.

So wala ho sa rules. So noong kinuha, kaya naging

4.63 million iyong natira ko sa isang junket po, iyong nasabi ko, dahil
nag-aaway na po kami. Kinuha niya 370,000 so nagagalit na ako kasi
wala hong usapang kukuning cash.
Kasi itong negosyo namin, usapan lang, tiwala. Sabi ko, Niloloko
ninyo ako. Sabi ko, Talunin ninyo muna lahat ng pera na nasa
Solaire, saka ninyo na lang kunin ito. So kaya naiwan po iyan4.63
million dollars po.
THE CHAIRMAN.
SEN. SOTTO.

Okay.

Naiwan saan?

68

COMMITTEE ON ACCOUNTABILITY OF PUBLIC OFFICERS AND


INVESTIGATIONS (BLUE RIBBON)
MJPalaganas
VIII-1
March 29, 2016
12:53 p.m. 8

THE CHAIRMAN.

Naiwan saan?

MR. WONG. Sa isang junket po sa Solaire, naka-safekeeping po.


THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.

Hanggang ngayon, nandiyan pa?

Nandiyan po. Kung gusto ninyosabi ko nga,

gusto ko ngang dalhin dito. Payo lang sa akin ng abugado (?) ko


masama po iyon.
SEN. SOTTO.

Mr. Chair, ano langjust to inform the public

the public ano.


THE CHAIRMAN.
SEN. SOTTO.

Go ahead.

Marami ang nagtatanong, ano ba iyong junket

operator? Ano iyong junket player? At ano iyong junket na binabanggit


mo? Ano iyon? Paki-esplika ngang mabuti.
MR. WONG.

Opo. Ang junket operator po, katulad ko, sa

Cagayan Economic Zone po, Eastern Hawaii Leisure Company Resort


with a casino license. Ang junket operator po, ibig sabihin, kailangan
sa iyo ang dealer, sa iyo ang farelahat ng junket operators, ibig
sabihin, kailangan foreigner. Hindi ho pwede ang local na tao, hindi
pwede po maglaro. Bawal po. Lahat po kailangan manifest.
SEN. SOTTO.

Money first?

MR. WONG.

Opo.

69

COMMITTEE ON ACCOUNTABILITY OF PUBLIC OFFICERS AND


INVESTIGATIONS (BLUE RIBBON)
MJPalaganas
VIII-1
March 29, 2016
12:53 p.m. 9

SEN. SOTTO.

Money first.

MR. WONG.

Opo. Katulad po sa Solaire po. Lahat po iyan,

kung sino po ang naglaro, lahat naka-manifest kung sino-sino.


THE CHAIRMAN.

Money first.

SEN. SOTTO.

Money first.

SEN. RECTO.

No, manifest.

SEN. SOTTO.

Show the color, ganoon.

SEN. RECTO.

Manifest.

MR. WONG.

Hindi. Manifest, the passport ho.

SEN. SOTTO.

No, no. Money first.

SEN. RECTO.

No, manifest.

SEN. SOTTO.

Manifestano?

MR. WONG.

Manifest ho. Kailangan ipakita iyong passport

bago maglaro po.


Sorry po, mali ang mga Tagalog ko. Pasensya na po. Sorry po.
THE CHAIRMAN.
SEN. OSMEA.

Okay, ituloy nyo po.


Mr. Chair, may we ask him to spell the word?

Manifest or money firstano?


THE CHAIRMAN.

Manifest po. Iyong passport, ipapakita po

muna.

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COMMITTEE ON ACCOUNTABILITY OF PUBLIC OFFICERS AND


INVESTIGATIONS (BLUE RIBBON)
MJPalaganas
VIII-1
March 29, 2016
12:53 p.m. 10

SEN. OSMEA.
MR. WONG.

Yeah. Ang spelling niyan, m-a-n-i-f-e-s-t.

Kayo po, baka mali po ako.

SEN. OSMEA.

Atty. Toto.

MR. HERNANDEZ. Your Honor, it is m-a-n-i-f-e-s-t, manifest.


SEN. OSMEA.
THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. WONG.

That is what I said. Thank you.


Okay, manifest.

Opo. Ito po, anytime pwede ninyong kunin.

Iyong sinasabi ninyo po, iyong wala po akoat sabihin ko po


pala muna, baka akala ninyo po nagsasakitan-sakitan lang po ako.
Ito po, isa-submit ko po sa Komite, na matagal na, hindi pa ako
nae-executive checkup. So ito po, may appointment ako sa Singapore
na May 14, 15, 16, 17. Ito po iyong katunayan ko po. Tapos pwede
ninyo din i-check, iyong mag-ina ko po nasa Hong Kong. Matagal na
pong naka-book, pinuntahan ko po/mjp

71

COMMITTEE ON ACCOUNTABILITY OF PUBLIC OFFICERS AND


INVESTIGATIONS (BLUE RIBBON)
Mancol
IX-1
March 29, 2016
1:03 p.m.
1

MR. WONG. pinuntahan ko po. Para i-submit ko lang po sa


inyo baka di ba
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. Thank you.

Thank you. Ituloy-tuloy

nyo iyong kuwento nyo. You were explaining iyong junket. So, hindi
pa nakumpleto iyong junket. Pakipara malaman ng tao.
MR. WONG. Ang junket operator po like Solaire po, mayroon po
silang mga 14 junket operators po like, say, iyong si Ding, si Mr. Ding
ho dumating po, ang tawag po diya junket agent lang o casual junket.
Usually, may dala siyang player, wala ho siyang puwesto, hindi ho siya
gumagastos, nagsusundo, lahat po.

Hindi ho pareho sa amin na

operator po sa Midas po saka sa Cagayan Economic Zone po.

So,

magkaiba po.
THE CHAIRMAN.

Tapos ano ang ginagawa ng junket para

malaman ng mga tao? Naglalaro sila?


MR. WONG. Hindi po. Taga-kumbinsi ng player sa China kasi
kailangan foreigner. So, kailangan ikumbinsi mo ang mga player para
pumunta po ng Pilipinas tapos pag junket po, in dead chips para may
commission ka, pag naglaro ang player, dead chips to live chips. So,
may commission po.

Ang base po sa batas ng Pagcor is 1.25 ang

allowed ng Pagcor, iyong kita po bawat ikot po. For example, tumaya
ka ng isang million, nanalo ng isang million, meron po 1.2 po.

72

COMMITTEE ON ACCOUNTABILITY OF PUBLIC OFFICERS AND


INVESTIGATIONS (BLUE RIBBON)
Mancol
IX-1
March 29, 2016
1:03 p.m.
2

THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. So, iyon na ba iyong kuwento nyo po?


MR. WONG.

Opo, opo.

Kasi po iyong sinasabi po iyong kay

Weikang Xu, iisang player na maliit iyon kasi sinabi ko po tatanggapan


ko ng 100 million lang po iyon. Pang-cash lang po iyon. Kaya lumabas
iyong malaking Xu Weikang po.

Si Ding po at saka si Gao, sila po

talagang malaking player at sila po talagang dalawa gumawa nito.


SEN. SOTTO. Clarification lang po.
MR. WONG. Opo. Kasi si Gao matagal ko na po siyang kaibigan
so ito si Ding hindi po.

February 4 lang ko na-meet siya.

So, ang

pinaniniwalaan ko si Gao. Hindi ko alam na sinasabi factory, lahat, ang


daming pera, hindi ko alam po.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. At this point before we let the other
senators ask questions, Ms. Salud Bautista and Mr. Concon Bautista,
you represented, Ms. Salud, that you delivered the cash to a certain
Weikang Xu.

And you undertook to this committee to show us the

transactions, all receipt of transactions.


Ah, okay. You still have some submissions which are pending?
Okay. You have not yet complied so please comply. Well send it to
you. Well send you the request.
MS. BAUTISTA. Yes, Your Honor.

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COMMITTEE ON ACCOUNTABILITY OF PUBLIC OFFICERS AND


INVESTIGATIONS (BLUE RIBBON)
Mancol
IX-1
March 29, 2016
1:03 p.m.
3

THE CHAIRMAN. Make sure you comply it before the next


hearing.
MS. BAUTISTA. Yes, Your Honor.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. Lets start off. Well ask the senators
to ask their questions in order of appearance.
SEN. OSMEA. Mr. Chair.
THE CHAIRMAN. Senator Osmea.
SEN. OSMEA. Just some administrative. May we take a look
at those photos you brought, Mr. Wong?

I-submit mo nga sa

committee secretary.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. At this point, Mr. Wong, the chair will
start off with the questions. Mr. Wong, is that you?
MR. WONG. Opo, sir.
THE CHAIRMAN. Sabi mo dala ni Concon Bautista on February
5 P80 million cash.

Paano niya iyon dinala mabigat-bigat yata iyon?

Paano niya dinala?


MR. WONG. May kasama po siyang tao.
THE CHAIRMAN. Tao niya?
MR. WONG. Opo, opo.
THE CHAIRMAN. So, paano nadala, bagahe?

74

COMMITTEE ON ACCOUNTABILITY OF PUBLIC OFFICERS AND


INVESTIGATIONS (BLUE RIBBON)
Mancol
IX-1
March 29, 2016
1:03 p.m.
4

MR. WONG. Hindi po. Parang nasa kahon, iyong parang box,
papel na box, karton po, karton.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. Tapos iyong kay Ms. Maia Deguito
papaano?
MR. WONG.

Sa pagkaalala ko po, pagpasok po ni Maia, mga

7:40 o something po o 7:45, sabi ko, Maia, mabigat.

Hindi ko po

alam. Iyong driver ko po o iyong tao ni Concon tumulong ibaba po.


Pinapahanap ko po iyong affidavit, di ba iyong nagbale siya, kung sino
ang nakakita sa kanya sakasi nagtatago po ako kaya hindi ko pa
natrabaho iyong mga kailangan kong gawin.
THE CHAIRMAN.

SamakatuwidIm sure tinanong mo na

iyong driver mo kung tumulong ba siya?


MR. WONG.

Hindi ko pa natatanong, hindi ko pa nakakausap

kasi takot ako sa mga driver baka matsismisan ako. Never ko pang
nakausap ang tao ko hanggang ngayon.
THE CHAIRMAN.

Okay, sige.

So sa pagkaalala mo, walang

third party ang nakakita o meron man?


MR. WONG. Palagay ko meron po. Pagka ni-request siguro sa
CCTV ng Solaire lahat po iyon makikita po.
THE CHAIRMAN. Saan kayo nagkita?
MR. WONG. Pagpasok po sa VIP Lounge po.

75

COMMITTEE ON ACCOUNTABILITY OF PUBLIC OFFICERS AND


INVESTIGATIONS (BLUE RIBBON)
Mancol
IX-1
March 29, 2016
1:03 p.m.
5

THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. Solaire.


MR. WONG. Opo.
THE CHAIRMAN.

SolaireMisterIm sorry I cant see your

name. Theres a glare.


MR. S. TAN. Atty. Benny Tan.
THE CHAIRMAN. Yes, Atty. Tan, sorry.
MR. S. TAN. Yes, sir.
THE CHAIRMAN. You would have a CCTV for that?
MR. S. TAN. We have, Your Honor, but following the regulation
imposed by Pagcor, it has a period after which it is automatically
erased.
SEN. SOTTO. How long?
THE CHAIRMAN. Was it erased?
SEN. SOTTO. How long is the period?
THE CHAIRMAN.

How long is the period and was it erased?

Yes or no?
MR. S. TAN. That period, particular period that Mr. Kim Wong is
saying, Your Honor, is beyond the
THE CHAIRMAN. How long is the period?
MR. S. TAN. Pagcor rule requires 14 days, Your Honor.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. Suma-total, was it erased? Yes or no?

76

COMMITTEE ON ACCOUNTABILITY OF PUBLIC OFFICERS AND


INVESTIGATIONS (BLUE RIBBON)
Mancol
IX-1
March 29, 2016
1:03 p.m.
6

MR. S. TAN.

Yes, Your Honor.

That particular period was

already erased, Your Honor.


THE CHAIRMAN. Erased na. Okay.
Mr. Kim, sabi mo kumain po kayo after that. Saang restaurant
ito?
MR. S. TAN. Sa Korean restaurant po sa MOA.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. Iyong Korean restaurant may mga tao
doon. Meron bang kilala nyo na nakakita sa inyo?
MR. WONG. Siguro po. Kasi, sir, kung mabigyan lang ako ng
pagkakataon, hindi ako hina-harass nang ganito, nire-raid iyong bahay
ko, nilalagay iyong kahon ng bahay ko, nagtatago ako, hindi ako
makapagtrabaho. Kung bigyan nyo ako ng free hand, kukunin ko po
lahat ng affidavit ng tao at maisa-submit ko po sa inyo.
THE CHAIRMAN.

Bakit, ano ba ang nangyayari sa iyo?

Pakisabi lang sa committee. Anong harassment?


MR. WONG. May warrant po, dinala. Ang mukha ko pinakikita,
20 sila ng NBI. Bakit mukha ko?
THE CHAIRMAN. NBI?
MR. WONG. Opo.
THE CHAIRMAN. Saan pumunta?
MR. WONG. Attorney, ikaw na magpaliwanag.

77

COMMITTEE ON ACCOUNTABILITY OF PUBLIC OFFICERS AND


INVESTIGATIONS (BLUE RIBBON)
Mancol
IX-1
March 29, 2016
1:03 p.m.
7

THE CHAIRMAN.

Okay.

Atty. Toto, please share the

circumstances so that we will know.


MR. FERRER. With the permission of the honorable chairman,
Your Honor, sometime last Holy Wednesday, certain elements claiming
to be members of the NBI went to several addresses which were the
addresses of the offices or residence of Mr. Kim Wong. They presented
a search warrant in the name issued by a certain judgewe want also
later to submit thisin Malabon. But the search warrant is addressed
to Wen Liu but the address is the address of Mr. Kim Wong and the
pictures that they showed were the pictures of Kim Wong. And what
was alarming, Your Honor, is on the very same day, a box, sealed box
was delivered to the house of Mr. Kim Wong. The box allegedly came
from RCBC, and the name on the box, sealed box, was Kim Wong. The
alleged LBC delivery man was riding in a motorcycle was not in the
uniform of. . . (nam)

78

COMMITTEE ON ACCOUNTABILITY OF PUBLIC OFFICERS AND


INVESTIGATIONS (BLUE RIBBON)
SMVilladiego
X-1
March 29, 2016
1:13 p.m.
1

MR. FERRER. ...was not in the uniform of LBC. So the maid in


that house questioned immediately, Bakit hindi naka-uniform iyan, at
saka bakit Holy Wednesday, at saka bakit may mga NBI operatives
nasa labas? So we felt, Your Honor, that somebody was trying to
plant evidence against Mr. Kim Wong so that if that box wasagain, I
am speculating--if that box was accepted, received by the maid, these
NBI or these people claiming to be NBI operatives would immediately
serve a search warrant in the name of Wen Liu but with the picture of
Mr. Kim Wong.
THE CHAIRMAN. I am sure at this point in time you have
already checked with the NBI if those operatives were legitimate or
fake.
MR. WONG.

Sabi po nila legitimate po, nasa news kagabi.

Legitimate po pero mukha ko naman po.


THE CHAIRMAN. Ibig mong sabihin iba iyong pangalan?
MR. WONG. Pwede pong mag-testify lahat ng driver, katulong,
masahista, ganoon po.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. Okay.
MR. WONG. Sa bahay ko po. May tao po kami at mino-monitor
sila at saka mayroon pa pong nagpuntang may mga picture po. Wala
ho akong oras magtrabaho kasi--gusto ko lang pong magsalita.

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COMMITTEE ON ACCOUNTABILITY OF PUBLIC OFFICERS AND


INVESTIGATIONS (BLUE RIBBON)
SMVilladiego
X-1
March 29, 2016
1:13 p.m.
2

THE CHAIRMAN. So sinasabi ninyo, Mr. Kim, kung matanggal


lang

itong

harassment,

makakakuha

kang

ebidensya

para

masuportahan itong sinasabi ninyo?


MR. WONG.

Sana po. At saka hindi ko po alam kung anong

mangyayari sa akin dahil maraming reasons po.

Kasi po iyong

dalawa po ang kalaban ko dito ngayon.


THE CHAIRMAN. Sino po?
MR. WONG. Iyong kabilang side, hindi nakatanggap ngkulang
ang pera at ditong side naman ng kalaban ko naman puro hindi ko
alam. Kaya medyo malaki po ang problema ko. Okay lang po iyon.
THE CHAIRMAN. Balik tayo doon sa restaurant. Wala bang
nakakita sa inyo na kilala ninyo para masabi mongoo. Wala bang
witness?
MR. WONG. Sir, gagawin ko pong paraan. Bigyan nyo ako ng
kaunting time.

Next hearing po makikita ninyo po siguro lahat ng

affidavit po.
SEN. SOTTO. Okay. Sinong nagbayad?
MR. WONG.

Iyong sinasabi ninyo pong sa restaurant iyong

nakita kami. Opo.


SEN. SOTTO. Sino ang nagbayad ng kinain ninyo?
MR. WONG. Ako po.

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SEN. SOTTO. Ay sayang.


MR. WONG. Pero po naka-charge po sa Solaire.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay, Mr. Kim, sabi mo on several occasions
kumuha ka ng cash sa bahay ni Concon Bautista, hindi ba?
MR. WONG. Opo.
THE CHAIRMAN. Anong kulay iyong gate nina Concon Bautista
sa bahay?
MR. WONG. Hindi, pag-iisipan ko. Side door po, pag park side
door parang gray yata ho. Pero iyong pinto niya, pagpasok sa bahay
kahoy po.
THE CHAIRMAN. Kahoy. Pagpasok ninyo sa bahay iyong front.
MR. WONG.

Hindi ka pa ho makatawid kasi may tubig po ito.

Kailangan pumasok ka dito.


THE CHAIRMAN. May tubig.
MR. WONG. Oo.
THE CHAIRMAN. Parang pond?
MR. WONG. Pond, opo.
THE CHAIRMAN.

Okay. Pumasok ka sa bahay?

MR. WONG. Opo.


THE CHAIRMAN.

At saan kayo nagkita sa bahay?

MR. WONG. Sa balcony po.

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THE CHAIRMAN. Sa balcony. So open air?


MR. WONG. Opo.
THE CHAIRMAN. Paki-describe iyong itsura ng balcony.
SEN. OSMEA. Mr. Chair, instead of going to those details, can
we ask Mr. Kim Wong, may picture ka ba na kinuha sa loob ng bahay?
SEN. AQUINO. Mr. Chairman.
MR. WONG. Hahanapin ko po. Baka sa susunod na hearing na
lang po.
SEN. AQUINO. Mr. Chairman, we can just ask Mr. Bautista if he
is denying that Mr. Wong was in his house. Do you concur or do you
deny that Mr. Wong was in your residence during those dates, Mr.
Bautista?
THE CHAIRMAN. Yes, Mr. Bautista.
MR. BAUTISTA. Yes, I confirm that, that he was in my house.
THE CHAIRMAN. On those dates that he said?
MR. BAUTISTA. I have to check my records on the exact dates.
THE CHAIRMAN. You have records of people who entered your
house?
MR. BAUTISTA. No I meanwell, he was there for a couple of
times. I just want to make sure and submit it to you, the breakdowns.

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THE CHAIRMAN. But you have records of people who entered


your house?
MR. BAUTISTA.

No, no.

Not the records of the people who

entered my house but the dates that he was there.


THE CHAIRMAN. So you confirm he was there? Okay.
Senator Sotto
SEN. SOTTO.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

There are numerous

questions we have for Mr. Kim Wong but during the last hearing, I was
able to frame my questions towards a very nagging issue and right
now Mr. Kim Wong has brought up the issue again, the issue of the
Philrem. It seems that Philrem has a starring role in this controversy.
So during the last hearing, and the Chairman already mentioned this,
you committed to submit to the Committee the records of Philrem
particularly on the amounts earned by your company and this $81
million transaction. So have you submitted the records already? Last
time you committed to submit. Sabi ninyo iyong initially you said 58
per transaction then you clarified that certain financial transactions you
get a handling fee of zero point twenty-five (0.25) percent or onefourth of one percent, something like that. Have you submitted this
already?

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MS. BAUTISTA.

Not yet, sir, but I can submit it to you

because I already gave the figures of 10,474,654.00.


SEN. SOTTO. You said 10 million as what, a handling fee?
MS. BAUTISTA.
SEN. SOTTO.

Yes, sir.
What exactly is a handling fee?

What do you

mean by handle?
MS. BAUTISTA.

Handling fee, sir, iyong transaction po namin

na ginawa. So that comprises the conversion and the handling fee.


SEN. SOTTO.

Marami po kasing nagtatatanong. If there are

withdrawals that are going to be made in certain dollar

accounts or

peso accounts in a certain bank like in this case the RCBC at dadalhin
sa casino, bakit kailangang dumaan sa inyo?
MS. BAUTISTA.

Sir, in all honesty hindi ko

alam

bakit

kailangan pa hong dumaan sa amin. Tinawagan lang ho kami ng RCBC


branch manager.
SEN. SOTTO. So therefore you are saying that it is Ms. Dequito,
branch manager, who contacted you and asked you to remit?
MS. BAUTISTA.

Yes, Your Honor.

SEN. SOTTO. Tapos ang sabi sa inyo, isa sa mga remittances or


remitter is William Go?
MS. BAUTISTA.

Sir, iyon po ang sinabi niya na kliyente niya.

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SEN. SOTTO. Sinabi niya on the phone?


MS. BAUTISTA.

Yes, Your Honor.

SEN. SOTTO. Do you have any proof of these instructions? You


talking of hundreds of millions of pesos sa telepono lang?
MS. BAUTISTA.

Yes, Your Honor. Kasi pagka nagta-transact

po kami, Your Honor, ako like ako, I make it appoint that I get credited
first before I actually talk. Like you said, the funds have been credited
to my accounts so clear ho iyong funds na na-credit sa amin kasi
galing ho sa kliyente nila sa RCBC.
SEN. SOTTO. So iyong nagre-remit si Mr. William Go?
MS. BAUTISTA.

Opo.

SEN. SOTTO. Iyong sinasabing Mr. William Go at sinasabi ni Mr.


Go na hindi siya iyon, hindi ninyo nakausap?
MS. BAUTISTA.
SEN. SOTTO.

Hindi po.

Iyong branch manager ang nagbigay sa inyo ng

instructions?
MS. BAUTISTA.

Yes, Your Honor. Opo.

SEN. SOTTO. Okay. Kausap mo on the phone si Ms. Dequito?


How can you be so sure na si Ms. Deguito iyon?

Have you had

dealings with her before?

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MS. BAUTISTA.

Yes, Your Honor.

At saka sya ho ang

nagsasabi kung magkano iyong ike-credit sa account po namin,


inaantay lang po namin iyon. Ang branch po namin Unimart, hindi ho
sa Jupiter so kapag nag-check po kami ng account namin nandoon sa
Unimart.
SEN. SOTTO.

So you have previous dealings with Ms. Deguito

already?
MS. BAUTISTA.

Opo. Yes,Your Honor.

SEN. SOTTO. And then puro over the phone.../smv

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SEN. SOTTO.

puro over the phone?

MS. BAUTISTA. Yes, Your Honor.


SEN. SOTTO. How did you meet? How did you know that it was
her?
MS. BAUTISTA. Your Honor, from before pa ho kasi kilala na
namin si Ms. Deguito.
SEN. SOTTO. Paano ninyo nakilala?
MS. BAUTISTA. That time she was still with iBank and then she
transferred to numerous banks: mayroong Export, may EastWest. So,
from time to time, she would call para ho magpa-remit or magconvert. Ganoon po.
SEN. SOTTO.

Ah, iba-iba ang halaga nitong mga transactions

na ito.
MS. BAUTISTA. Iba-iba po.
SEN. SOTTO.

Kasinglaki ba nitong mga pinapadala ngayon o

maliliit lang?
MS. BAUTISTA. Mayroon pong malaki naman po.
SEN. SOTTO. Saan iyan? Sa casino din?
MS. BAUTISTA. Hindi po. Sa account din po sa RCBC.
SEN. SOTTO. All right. In your statement last time, you said,
you delivered to Mr. Weikang Xu?

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MS. BAUTISTA. Yes, Your Honor.


SEN. SOTTO. Paano ninyo idineliver (deliver) kay Mr. Weikang
Xu? May resibo ba kayo?
MS. BAUTISTA. Sa Solaire po.
SEN. SOTTO. Sa Solaire. Apparently, walang Mr. Weikang Xu.
MS. BAUTISTA. Hindi, mayroon po. Actually, noong nag-deliver
po ako, madami ho silang Chinese na nandoon.
SEN. SOTTO. Papaano mo na-identify na si Weikang Xu iyon?
Sino ang nagsabi? Ano ang itsura? May litrato ka?
MS. BAUTISTA. Binigyan lang po ako ng cell phone number ng
branch manager, tawagan ko tapos i-meet ko siya doon.
SEN. SOTTO.

So, balik sa branch manager. Iyong branch

manager na naman ang nagsasabi.


MS. BAUTISTA. Sir, lahat ho ng instructions po namin galing sa
branch manager kasi siya ang
SEN. SOTTO. Ang kasasabi pa lang ni Mr. Kim Wong ngayon ay
hindi si Weikang Xu ang pinagbigyan ninyo. Ang sabi niya si Mr.
Bautista ang nag-deliver, hindi ikaw.
MS. BAUTISTA. Hindi, nandoon po ako.
SEN. SOTTO. One time nandoon ka?
MS. BAUTISTA. Opo.

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SEN. SOTTO. Ano iyon, magkano iyong dineliver (deliver) mo?


MS. BAUTISTA. Iyong 90 million po, noong February 5.
SEN. SOTTO. Iyong una.
MS. BAUTISTA. Opo.
SEN. SOTTO. Ninety. Akala ko 80?
MS. BAUTISTA. Ninety po.
SEN. SOTTO. Ninety. Kanino mo ibinigay, kay Weikang Xu?
MS. BAUTISTA. Kay Weikang Xu po.
SEN. SOTTO. At alam mong siya iyon?
MS. BAUTISTA. Ibinigay niya po iyong passport.
SEN. SOTTO.

Ipinakita iyong passport niya. So, anong resibo

mo na tinanggap? Mayroon kayong resibo na tinanggap niya?


MS. BAUTISTA. Kasama po sa mga isa-submit namin sa inyo.
SEN. SOTTO. Kailan kaya? Dahil last weektwo weeks ago or
last week, ipinangako ninyong isa-submit ninyo. Pati kopya noong
passport ni Mr. Weikang Xu?
MS. BAUTISTA. Opo, sir.
SEN. SOTTO. Puwede ninyo bang i-submit ngayon?
MS. BAUTISTA.

Sir, actually iyong copy po ng passport,

kasama iyon doon sa report namin sa AMLC.

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SEN. SOTTO. Concerning these transactions, may mga dineliver


(deliver), may kinuha si Mr. Kim Wong sa bahay ninyo, mayroon ba
kayong mga tinransmit (transmit) na mga konektado diyan sa abroad?
MS. BAUTISTA. Wala po, Your Honor.
SEN. SOTTO. Wala?
MS. BAUTISTA. Wala po.
SEN. SOTTO. Sigurado kayo na ang AMLC walang makikita na
may itinransmit (transmit) kayo?
MS. BAUTISTA. Wala po, Your Honor.
SEN. SOTTO. All right. Thats on record.
So, you had dealings with Mr. Weikang Xu before?
MS. BAUTISTA. Wala po, Your Honor.
SEN. SOTTO. So, you did not know how he looks like? You just
relied on the passport and the telephone number that you were given?
MS. BAUTISTA. Opo, Your Honor. Pag nagdi-deliver po kami ng
door-to-door, ganoon din ang nangyayari sa amin.
SEN. SOTTO. So, kaya hindi alam ni Mr. Kim Wong iyong unang
iyon? Ang alam niya iyong kay Mr. Bautista ang dineliver (deliver)?
MS. BAUTISTA. Hindi ko po alam, Your Honor.
SEN. SOTTO. Mr. Wong, alam mo ba iyong unang delivery na
90 million?

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MR. WONG. Hindi ko po alam iyon.


SEN. SOTTO. So, mayroon talagang Weikang Xu?
MR. WONG.

Weikang Xu po ay isang player po ng Midas na

medium player lang sa Midas.


SEN. SOTTO. Hindi sa Solaire?
MR. WONG. Hindi po. Walang Weikang Xu pag binuksan ninyo
iyong Solaire record po.
SEN. SOTTO. Ano iyong sinasabi ni Ms. Bautista?
MR. WONG. Sabi ko po sa inyo kanina, iyong Weikang Xu nga
na tatanggap ng 100 million lang para sa player lang iyan, iyong 100
million. Binigay ko po sa kanila iyong picture ng passport.
SEN. SOTTO. Mr. Benny Tan.
MR. S. TAN. Yes, Your Honor.
SEN. SOTTO. Mayroon bang Mr. Weikang Xu?
MR. S. TAN. No, weve correctedmy error during the first
hearing, Your Honor, was identifying Weikang Xu as the recipient of
the funds from Philrem. That was a mistake, Your Honor. I mistook
him for another person, Your Honor, honest mistake. I am sorry about
that.
SEN. SOTTO. So, who were you pertaining to?

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MR. S. TAN. The funds remitted to the account of Ding Zhize,


Your Honor, among the 18 persons that he allowed to play the nonnegotiable chips. Theres another person named Weikang Jhang. I
made a mistake of thinking that they were one and the same. That
was a mistake.
SEN. SOTTO. Who do you think is the person being referred to
by Ms. Bautista?
MR. S. TAN. We checked Solaire record, Your Honor, we have
no record of Weikang Xu.
SEN. SOTTO. Midas mayroon?
SEN. OSMEA. Mr. Chair, may I just to help you? Is there a
representative of Pagcor here?
THE CHAIRMAN. Yes, Mr. Manalastas.
SEN. OSMEA. Mr. Manalastas, Pagcor operates the casino at
Midas, right?
MR. MANALASTAS. Yes, sir.
SEN. OSMEA. Okay. Can you then answer the questions that
were directed by Senator Sotto, if you have a Mr. Weikang Xu there?
MR. MANALASTAS.

We have awe sublease the junket

operations to the MidasI am sorry, Prime Investment

Korean

Incorporated (PIKI). Atty. Nepomuceno here represents the group.

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SEN. OSMEA. Ms. Nepomuceno, you heard the question?


MS. NEPOMUCENO. Your Honor, I believe that if and when Mr.
Weikang Xu has played in the oriental casinos in Midas, then hes been
prequalified by Eastern Hawaii to play.
SEN. OSMEA. So, theres such a person on your records?
MS. NEPOMUCENO. I believe, Your Honor, if he has playedI
do not have personal knowledge but if he has played, we have
submitted actually a photocopy of his passport to the Pagcor
representative in Midas Casino, so we can actually check.
SEN. OSMEA.

Who in Midas Casino knows Mr. Weikang Xu

personally?
MS. NEPOMUCENO.

I believe, Your Honor, Mr. Wong should

know.
SEN. OSMEA. Yes, Mr. Wong said, yes. But who inside the
casino?
MS. NEPOMUCENO.

Apart from that, Your Honor, the Pagcor

representative or the Pagcor branch manager assigned to the Midas


Casino should have the records.
SEN. OSMEA. What is his name?
MS. NEPOMUCENO. Mr. Rey de Guzman, Your Honor.

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SEN. OSMEA. All right. Mr. Chair, I move that the committee
secretary invite Mr. Rey de Guzman.
THE CHAIRMAN. So ordered. Comsec.
SEN. SOTTO. Ms. Bautista, at any point, did you or any of your
officers not be suspicious of these transactions na ang lalaki? Were
there no red flags raised?
MS. BAUTISTA. No, Your Honor, because when you talk about
casino and cash, it makes sense, if they are going to play in the
casino.
SEN. SOTTO. So, you do not have any systems or processes of
guarding against money laundering?
MS. BAUTISTA. Your Honor, we do but in this particular case,
the money came from an account in RCBC that was transferred to our
account in Unimart and all my disbursements were allowed by the
RCBC Unimart branch. I do not see any problem with the transaction
because everything has been cleared.
SEN. OSMEA. Mr. Chair.
THE CHAIRMAN. Senator Osmea.
SEN. OSMEA. May we have the name of the manager at RCBC
Unimart branch?
MS. BAUTISTA. Her name is Pinky/rommel

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MS. BAUTISTA.

Her name is Pinky, I forgot her family

name. Maybe RCBC may be able to


MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.
SEN. OSMEA.

Macaalay.

Her name is Pinky Macaalay.

May we invite her to the next

hearing, please?
THE CHAIRMAN.

Could you produce her at the next hearing?

Thank you, RCBC.


Senator Sotto.
SEN. SOTTO.

Yes, thank you.

Naalala ko na last time, si Ms. Deguito said that it was Kim Wong
who instructed her to use your services at Philrem. Iyon yung sinabi
po niya eh.
Mr. Wong, iyon po ang sabi dito ni Ms. Deguito, kayo daw ang
nagsabi sa kanya na gamitin ang Philrem.
MR. WONG.

Hindi po totoo iyon.

Totoo po ba iyon?
Actually posa totoo po,

magkakilala po kami ni Concon sa mga papunta, pag-repair ng kotse


pero po ang pagpunta po niya sa Solaire sabi niya nagpatulong lang po
si Maia sa kanya.
iyan?

Tinutulungan niya lang po.

So sabi ko, Ano ba

Ako yung Philrem.

Kasi noong tinatanong sa kanya ng Solaire, hindi pa ho siya


dumarating sa Solaire, dumating na po yung pera. So sabi ng Solaire

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treasury Philrem ang nagpadala.

Hindi ko po alam kung ano yung

Philrem, hintayin natin, darating yung nagpadala.


SEN. SOTTO.

So before that, hindi mo kilala yung Philrem?

MR. WONG.

Kilala kong personal si Concon. Ang Philrem na

kumpanya hindi ko po alam.


SEN. SOTTO.

So hindi mo maaring masabi kay Ms. Deguito na

gamitin yung Philrem dahil hindi mo alam yung Philrem.


MR. WONG.

Hindi po.

SEN. SOTTO. Mayroon ding sinabi si Ms. Deguito rito na noong


sinasabi mo daw, tinatawag mo na padating na yung mga pera, ang
sabi daw niya, Ba, bilib ako sa iyo, alam mo huh.

Tapos ang sagot

mo raw, Eh alam kasi ni Lorenzo iyan, sabi ko sa iyo.

Sinabi mo ba

iyon?
MR. WONG. Hindi po.

Sa totoo lang po, more than 20 years

na kaming magkakilala, hindi ko po tinatawagan iyan ni minsan kasi


malaki ang respeto ko po sa kanya, hindi po iyan totoo. Tanong ninyo
po sa kanya.
Sa mga party lang nagkikita minsan-minsan pero never ko ho
siya tawagan.
SEN. SOTTO.

So hindi totoo yung sinabi mong alam ni

Lorenzo iyang transaction na iyan, sabi ni Ms. Deguito?

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MR. WONG. Paano ho kaming mag-uusap, hindi ho kami naguusap ho.


SEN. SOTTO.
MR. WONG.

Ni Maia, hindi kayo nag-uusap?


Ni Mr. Lorenzo Tan po.

SEN. SOTTO.

Iyong si Maia.

MR. WONG. Wala po akong sinasabi sa kanya po.


SEN. ENRILE.

Mr. Chairman.

SEN. SOTTO.

Yes, Mr. Chair.

SEN. ENRILE.

I just have a question.

THE CHAIRMAN.
SEN. ENRILE.

Yes, Senator Enrile.

Mr. Kim, noong pinakinggan namin si Maia, sabi

niya, kayo daw, ikaw at saka si Mr. Jayson Go at saka si Mr. Tan,
Lorenzo Tan, ay may Thursday club at nagkikita kayo halos linggolinggo. Nagkikita kayo, magkakaibigan daw kayo. Totoo ba?
MR. WONG.

Hindi po totoo iyon.

Hindi ko po alam ang

Thursday club.
Sir, sandali po. Sorry po.
Hindi po ako mahilig sa social. Never po.

At marami tao po

ang pwedeng mag-identify sa akin niyan. Hindi ko hilig po mag-party,


lahat. Wala akong hilig diyan.

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SEN. ENRILE.

At saka sinabi niya na kaya niya hindi na

tinanong yung kanyang mga bosses sa RCBC dahil nga kaibigan mo si


Mr. Tan at sinabi daw sa kanya ni Mr. Tan na bahala ka sa kanya,
alagaan mo siya.

Ikaw.

MR. WONG. Wala pong nangyari iyan kailanman.


naman siguroparang walang ethics, hindi ba po?

At saka hindi
Imposible po.

Pagkatao ko, pagkatao ni Mr. Tan, hindi naman sigurong ganoon po.
Wala po.

Sa totoo lang, hindi po nangyari iyon kailanman po.

SEN. ENRILE.

Hindi totoo iyon?

MR. WONG. Hindi po totoo po.


THE CHAIRMAN. Okay, just toSenator Sotto.
SEN. SOTTO.

Just to wrap up, Mr. Chair.

Just one or two

questions.
Kasi po anosa Philrem, based on the flow of the funds as
reported, it appears that the entire $81 million stolen from the Bank of
Bangladesh or part of what was really stolen ended up in your dollar
account.

Dumaan po sa inyo ano?

MS. BAUTISTA. Opo, Your Honor.


SEN. SOTTO.

Now the four initial pay accounts, Mr. William

Go at yung apat na account na sinasabi, lima bale being questioned by

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media and the banks, they are fictitious or fake. On the other hand,
ang undisputed account lang talaga rito ay yung account ninyo?
MS. BAUTISTA.

Yes, Your Honor.

SEN. SOTTO.

And then I heard thatI dont know if this is

true, the AMLC would be able to say that, I think all of the
personalities that have already been mentioned concerning this issue,
their accounts were frozen by the AMLC.

Ang account ninyo ba frozen

ng AMLC, hindi?
MS. BAUTISTA. Hindi po, Your Honor.
SEN. SOTTO.

Kayo lang ang hindi frozen sa involved dito.

Lahat involved frozen.


MS. BAUTISTA.

Pero yun hong sa RCBC account ho namin,

frozen.
SEN. SOTTO.

RCBC account lang. Kasi, you know, under these

circumstances kaya yungI am airing the side of some people also in


the banking industry.
Can you tell us why we should not think that you are a major
player in this anomalous or irregular transaction, Ms. Bautista?
MS. BAUTISTA.

Your Honor, sorry po, can you repeat the

question?

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SEN. SOTTO.

Anong puwede mong sabihin sa amin para hindi

namin maisip na kayo ang major player dito sa transaction na ito at


saka irregular transactions na ito?

Anomalous and irregular

transaction. Kayo ang nasa gitna eh. Kayo ang dinaanan ng lahat ng
pera aside from the branch manager.
MS. BAUTISTA.
manager.

Sir, tinawagan lang ho kami ng branch

Yung account po naminsana na lang ho hindi na kami

tinawagan at hindi namin nakuha itong transaksiyon na ito kung ganito


lang palang stolen pala ho yung money. If you will check our records,
you know, lahat ho ng bangko, mga kliyente po namin, lahat
pinagkakatiwalaan po kami.

Alam ho nila, for a fact, na hindi kami

magta-touch ng anything na illegal, Your Honor.


SEN. SOTTO.

Pero sabi ninyo wala kayong process eh. Wala

kayongtinanong ko kanina kung ano ba ang system ninyo o proseso


ninyo para ma-identify ninyo ang being laundered na pera or
transaction, sabi ninyo wala.

Tapos sabi ninyo ngayon

MS. BAUTISTA. Sir, ano naman po eh, kasi po galing na po sa


bangko. Galing na po sa account holder nila ng bangko kaya yung KYC
po ng
SEN. SOTTO.

Mga fake nga ho yung account holder eh.

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MS. BAUTISTA. Sir, hindi po namin alam.

Sa totoo lang ho,

pag kayo ho ang nagbukas ng account, napakahirap hong magbukas


ng account.

We relied on the KYC of the bank.

SEN. SOTTO.

Wala kayong sariling KYC? Yung bangko lang,

nagre-rely kayo sa KYC.


MS. BAUTISTA. Hindi po. Pagka ho ang kliyente ho namin ay
bangko, nagre-rely ho kami sa KYC ng bangko.

Pero ho kapag

personal naming kliyente, mayroon ho kaming procedures, kumukuha


ho kami ng ID; inaalam namin kung ano ang nature ng business.
Mayroon po kami.
SEN. SOTTO.
with the answers.

All right.

Anyway, Mr. Chair, I am not satisfied

I will await the records that they should have

submitted one week ago. I want to look at these receipts and records
and all that before I recommend anything to the Committee.
So I will give the floor back to you, Mr. Chair.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay, thank you.
One administrative matter before I give it to Senator Recto.
The one we called for Midas, what was the name again, Ms.
NepomucenoAtty. Nepomuceno?
MS. NEPOMUCENO.
THE CHAIRMAN.

Mr. De Guzman, Your Honor.

Mr. De Guzman represents what entity?

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MS. NEPOMUCENO.

PAGCOR, Your Honor.

THE CHAIRMAN. Pagcor.


MR. MANALASTAS.
THE CHAIRMAN.

Mr. Manalastas, Pagcor.

Yes, sir.
Mr. De Guzman, when he comes here on

Tuesday next week, he should give us proof and a definitive answer


whether or not Mr. Weikang Xu, Number 1, exists and he is a regular
player at Midas. I dont want any answers na, We will look into it, we
will check our records.

I want a yes or no and I want proof of

records. Is that clear?


MR. MANALASTAS.
THE CHAIRMAN.

Yes, Your Honor.


Okay.

Thats very important because Mr.

Kim Wong said that Weikang Xu is not a player at Solaire.

And Solaire

said they dont haveAm I correct, Mr. Benny Tan? cts

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THE CHAIRMAN.

Am I correct, Mr. Benny Tan, that there is

no record of Mr. Weikang Xu?


MR. S. TAN.

Thats correct, Your Honor. Weikang Xu is not a

player in Solaire.
THE CHAIRMAN.

So now we have to establish if Weikang Xu is

in fact a player of Midas. Okay. Senator Recto.


SEN. RECTO.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First of all, Mr. Wong,

paano mo nakilala si Maia, iyong branch manager?


MR. WONG.

Noong pumupunta po ako, bumibili ng kotse kela

Jason, nakikita ko siya doon.


SEN. RECTO.
MR. WONG.

Okay. So through Jason Go.


Hindi po.

Siya po iyon.

So nakaupo ako,

tumitingin ng kotse, nandoon siya, sabi niya, Mag-open ka naman ng


account, mag-open ka ng account.
SEN. RECTO.
MR. WONG.

Okay.
Para may customer, so nakapagbukas ako ng

isang account sa EastWest po.

Tapos sabi niya, lumipat na po siya

ngayon sa RCBC. Kulit nang kulit palagi ho sa akin.


SEN. RECTO.
MR. WONG.

Tama.
Opo.

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SEN. RECTO.

Okay. So magkakilala kayo ni Maia, may mga

common friends kayo, si Jason Go ang isa and then si Mr. Lorenzo Tan,
magkakilala kayo, kaibigan din ni Mr. Tan si Jason Go, if Im not
mistaken, at empleyado din itong si Maia. Kilala mo ba si William Go?
MR. WONG.
SEN. RECTO.
MR. WONG.
SEN. RECTO.

Kakilala ko po.
Kakilala mo rin si William Go.
Opo.
Okay.

MR. WONG. Pero eight to 10 years, hindi po kami nagkakausap.


SEN. RECTO.

Okay. At nabanggit mo rin kanina sa testimonya

ninyo na mayroon kang isang kaibigan na Mr. Dee na player mo sa


Solaire na natalo ng 450 million, tama ba iyon?
MR. WONG.
SEN. RECTO.
MR. WONG.
SEN. RECTO.
MR. WONG.
SEN. RECTO.
MR. WONG.
SEN. RECTO.
MR. WONG.

Hindi po Mr. Dee. Mr. Gao.


Mr. Gao.
Opo. Sorry po.
So ito iyong natalong 450 million, player mo?
Opo.
Okay. Sa Solaire?
Opo.
So dito nag-umpisa iyong lahat?
Opo.

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SEN. RECTO.

Okay. Hindi mo alam kung itong si Mr. Gao may

kinalaman sa hacking?
MR. WONG.

Hindi po.

SEN. RECTO.

Okay.

Basta ang sinasabi mo para maliwanag

dito sa testimonya natin dito, nag-umpisa ito gawa ng may 450 million
utang sa inyo.
MR. WONG.

Ni Mr. Gao po.

SEN. RECTO.

Ni Mr. Gao.

MR. WONG.

Opo.

SEN. RECTO.

Okay. At sinabi niya sa iyo, tulungan mo siya

magtayo ng account.
MR. WONG.

Hindi. Sabi niya po, mag-o-open siya ng account.

SEN. RECTO.

Tama. Okay. And then suddenly in your office,

si Maia, may kasamang ibang tao sa labas, nag-usap kayo ni Mr. Gao
at si Maia para mag-open ng account.
MR. WONG.

Opo. Pero ako lang po nag-translate. Kasi ang

dami hong sinasabi niya, kailangan cooperation


SEN. RECTO.

Naiintindihan ko.

Sinisimple ko lang iyong

pagkaunawa ko dito.
MR. WONG.
SEN. RECTO.

Opo.
So ikaw ang nagpakilala kay Mr. Gao kay Maia?

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MR. WONG.

Opo.

SEN. RECTO. At magkakilala naman kayo ni Maia dahil


nagkakilala kayo noong unang panahon pa with Jason Go, and so on
and so forth.
MR. WONG.

Opo.

SEN. RECTO. At sinabi mo rin matagal nang hinihikayat niya na


magbukas ka ng account doon, naghahanap siya ng negosyo, tama?
MR. WONG.
SEN. RECTO.

Opo.
Okay. So eventually, nakapagbukas ng account.

At ang claim mo, wala kang kinalaman sa pagbukas ng account, iyong


limang account.
MR. WONG.
SEN. RECTO.
MR. WONG.
SEN. RECTO.

Wala po.
Pinakilala mo lang.
Opo.
And then noong araw ng February 5, tumawag

ka kay Maia at inaabangan niyo iyong perang padating?


MR. WONG.
SEN. RECTO.
MR. WONG.
SEN. RECTO.

Opo.
Dumating nga iyong pera.
Opo.
Hindi kaya nakakapagtaka, Mr. Kim Wong

inaasahan mo ba $81 million o isang bilyong dolyar ang dadating?

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MR. WONG.
SEN. RECTO.
MR. WONG.
SEN. RECTO.
MR. WONG.

Sabi niya malaki pong pera ang darating.


Sabi nino?
Ni Gao.
Ni Gao?
Opo.

SEN. RECTO.

Nabanggit niya sa iyo na isang bilyon dolyar?

MR. WONG.

Kasi alam mo pag sa Casino, pag hindi dumating

pera, hindi ino-honor. Malaki daw po.


SEN. RECTO.

Okay. At may utang siya sa iyo na 450 million,

iyon ang sinasabi mo, di ba?


MR. WONG.

Opo. Four hundred fifty million po.

SEN. RECTO.

Ni minsan hindi niya nabanggit sa inyo na

nagbukas na sila ng account kasama ni Maia, limang account?

Ni

minsan hindi niya nabanggit sa iyo?


MR. WONG.
SEN. RECTO.
MR. WONG.
SEN. RECTO.

Sino po?
Si Mr. Gao.
Nabanggit niya po.
Nabanggit niya na nakapagtayo na siya ng

account kasama si Maia?


MR. WONG.
SEN. RECTO.

Opo.
So alam mo na may account na siya with Maia?

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MR. WONG.

Alam ko po.

Hindi naman pupuwedeng

magsinungaling po.
SEN. RECTO. Oo nga. So alam mo rin na lima ang account na
tinayo?
MR. WONG.

Opo.

SEN. RECTO. Narinig ba niyo rin iyong mga pangalan ng mga


account?
MR. WONG.
SEN. RECTO.

Hindi ko po alam.
Hindi mo alam iyong pangalan ng account?

MR. WONG. Maski sabihin nila hindi ko po alam iyong mga iyon.
SEN. RECTO.

Nabanggit ba niya sa iyo na isang bilyong dolyar

ang papasok?
MR. WONG.

Sabi niya ho, sobrang laki. Hindi ko lang po alam

kasi hindi ako naniniwala. Kasi maraming besesmaraming nag-aano


sa casino, hindi ho namin talaga alam kung gaano kalaki.
SEN. RECTO. Pero ine-expect mo more or less na billion dollars?
MR. WONG.

Parang sine lang po, iyon kasi ang nasa isip ko.

SEN. RECTO. Parang sine naman talaga iyong nangyayari dito


ngayon.
Okay.

Didiretso natin.

So ang plano na ginawa base sa

dokumento natin, lahat dadaan sa RCBC, isang bilyong dolyar.

Ang

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nakalusot, 81 million. Nahinto. Doon sa limang account. Pero apat


lang

iyong

nalagyan

ng

pera.

Lahat

itohindi

kaya

ngayon

nakakapagtaka na iyong apat na account na 81 napunta sa isang taong


kakilala mo, William Go?

Sa account ni Maia, sa branch ni Maia, na

iyong may pangalan ng account, William Go, na kakilala mo. Hindi ka


nagtaka doon? Hindi nakakapagtaka iyon?
MR. WONG.

Nakakataka po.

SEN. RECTO.

Nakakataka.

Tapos nabanggit niyo, kilala mo rin si Concon Bautista. Kilala mo


rin si Concon Bautista?
MR. WONG.
SEN. RECTO.

Kilala ko po.
Paano mo nakilala? Kay Jason Go din.

MR. WONG. Hindi po, sa kotse po, sa Auto Sports, pagawaan


ng kotse.
SEN. RECTO.

Kaya nga. Di kay Jason Go.

MR. WONG. Hindi po. Auto Sports, iyong gumagawa ng kotse.


SEN. RECTO.
MR. WONG.
SEN. RECTO.
MR. WONG.
SEN. RECTO.

Ah ibang shop naman iyon.


Ibang shop po.
Hindi shop ni Jason Go?
Hindi po.
Pumupunta ka doon sa talyer na iyon?

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MR. WONG.

Madalas po.

SEN. RECTO.
MR. WONG.

Mahilig ka rin sa kotse?


Opo.

SEN. RECTO.

Okay. Si Jason pumupunta din doon?

MR. WONG.

Hindi po. Bentahan ng kotse iyong kanya. Ito,

gawaan po.
SEN. RECTO.

Okay. Tama.

So pagkatapos noon, pumasok iyong 81 million, pagkatapos


noon iyong 81 million, napunta naman sa PhilRem, kakilala din ninyo.
Kakilala mo iyong nagpasok ng pera, pinakilala mo sa isang
branch manager, may pumasok na pera, inaabangan ninyo, pumasok
nga naman iyong pera, pumunta iyong pera sa isang kakilala mo na
dine-deny niya na siya nagbukas ng account.

At iyong perang iyon

pumasok naman sa PhilRem na kakilala din ninyo.


MR. WONG.

Puwede po ako sumagot?

SEN. RECTO. Tinatanong ko lang kung nakakapagtaka ba o


hindi?
MR. WONG. Hindi. Puwede po ako sumagot para mapaliwanag
SEN.

RECTO.

Oo

nga.

Tinatanong

kita.

Puwede

kayong

sumagot.

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MR. WONG.

Nandito po si PhilRem. Tanong mo ba, nakausap

ko ba siya dito sa pera o hindi?


SEN. RECTO.
MR. WONG.

Mamaya ko tatanungin iyon.


Tanong niyo po kay William

SEN. RECTO.

Mamaya. Huwag mong sasabihin sa akin kung

kailan ako puwedeng magtanong.


MR. WONG.
SEN. RECTO.

Sorry po. Sinasabi ko lang po.


Sinasabi ko rin sa inyo.

Okay. Let me continue.


Pagkatapos noon, napunta sa PhilRem iyong pera
Siguro sa oras na ito muna para maging maliwanag sa RCBC
naman.
Lumalabas dito na ang Philrem nagpalit ng pera.
Tatanungin ko na muna ang Philrem nga naman pala.
Mr. Bautista, noong pumasok iyong pera sa inyo sa Unimart
account at ang pinag-uusapan natin dito kanina mga cash, 600 million,
18 million dollars ang unang sinabi mo. Ang sabi ni Kim Wong kanina,
may nawawalang $17 million thereabout. Mayroong testimonya si Kim
Wong na ganoon at may dalawang kaaway daw siya ngayon.
Saan kayo nagpalit ng pera? Iyong dolyar na pumasok sa inyo,
nagpalit kayo ng cash.

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MS. BAUTISTA. Sir, sa treasury po ng RCBC nagpalit kami ng


pera?
SEN. RECTO.

Nagtatanong ako, saan kayo nagpalit ng pera, sa

treasury ng RCBC?
MS. BAUTISTA.

Opo, Your Honor.

SEN. RECTO. Magkano ang pinapalitan ninyo sa treasury ng


RCBC?
MS. BAUTISTA.
SEN. RECTO.
dito

na

Ang total po 61 million, iba-ibang araw po.

Sixty-one million, iba-ibang araw. At may araw

lumampashanggang

February

10,

kung

hindi

ako

nagkakamali. Tama ho ba iyon? Hindi ba?


So 61 million, nagpapalit kayo sa RCBC and thenLet me give
RCBC, then Ill get back to you, Ms. Bautista, para makumpleto natin
iyong pangyayari.
Will you be able to/cmn

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SEN. RECTO.

Will you be able to answer this question, if you

did transact with Philrem? And theyre admitting to it anyway.


MR. R. TAN. Yes, Your Honor.
SEN. RECTO. Yes, you did. Did you have any indication that
this is the same amount of money coming from the
MR. R. TAN. No, Your Honor.
SEN. RECTO. No. No whatsoever.
MR. R. TAN. The trade that was done February 10, there was
some indication but it was not very clear what the role was at that
point.
SEN. RECTO.

Thank you for that.

Because the reason why I

asked this obvious question is because there was already a request


from the Bank of Bangladesh na kung puwede i-hold ninyo. Thats why
I wanted to give you the opportunity to answer why did you continue
to transact kung alam na ninyong posibleng from an illegal source.
MR. R. TAN. Well, at that point, Your Honor, we had no strong
indication or even the possible involvement of Philrem in the
SEN. RECTO.

Okay.

Thank you for your response.

So, you

confirm 61 million?
MR. R. TAN. Yes, Your Honor.

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SEN. RECTO.

So balik tayo, Ms. Bautista.

Eighty-one iyon,

nasaan iyong beinte kung 61 ang trinansak (transact) nyo sa kanila?


MS. BAUTISTA.

Your Honor, iyon po iyong cash deliveries

namin.
SEN. RECTO. Iyong 20 million na balance. Iyon ang sinasabi
ninyo. O sige, lets move forward.
So magkano iyong palit nung 61 million?

Noong pinapalitan

ninyo sa RCBC, magkano iyong pesos na nakuha ninyo?

So mula

dolyar naging peso ito, hindi ba? Two point nine zero six (2.906) billion
ba ang sagot doon?
MS. BAUTISTA. Parang 2.895 billion more or less.
SEN. RECTO. O sige, give or take na. Ang calculation ko 2.906.
O sige na, 2.9 billion. Ang pinag-uusapan dito kulang-kulang apat na
bilyon. Medyo accounted for na natin iyong 2.9, iyong almost three or
four billion. Iyong 2.9 naman, isang bilyon tinelegraphic transfer ninyo
sa Eastern Hawaii Leisure Corporation. Tama ho ba iyon?
MS. BAUTISTA. Yes, Your Honor.
SEN. RECTO. So, bank to bank.
MS. BAUTISTA. Opo, Your Honor.
SEN. RECTO. Mula RCBC

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MS. BAUTISTA. Unimart.


SEN. RECTO.

Unimart Branch, papuntang Eastern Hawaii

Leisure Company.
MS. BAUTISTA. Yes, Your Honor.
SEN. RECTO.

Kilala ba ninyo sino ang may-ari ng Eastern

Hawaii?
MS. BAUTISTA. Hindi po, Your Honor.
SEN. RECTO. Hindi ninyo kilala?
MS. BAUTISTA. Hindi po, Your Honor.
SEN. RECTO. Hindi kaya iyong tao na sa kaliwa ninyo na apat
na hakbang sa inyo?
MS. BAUTISTA.

Your Honor, noong time na iyon hindi ko po

alam.
SEN. RECTO. Hindi mo alam. Ngayon alam mo na.
MS. BAUTISTA. Alam ko na po ngayon.
SEN. RECTO. Okay.
Mr. Wong, kayo ba ang may-ari ng Eastern Hawaii Leisure
Company.
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. RECTO. Kayo ang may-ari?

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MR. WONG. Opo.


SEN. RECTO. Tama ito, isang bilyon ang natanggap ninyo dito?
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. RECTO. Okay. So sinabi ninyo kaninaito po parte na ito
ng bayad sa iyo doon sa 450.
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. RECTO. Parte na ng bayad sa inyo ito.
MR. WONG.

Iyong 450 something million po, iyon ang

pambayad sa akin. At saka iyong 550, sinabi ni Gao at saka ni Ding,


ilalaro nila sa Midas.
SEN. RECTO. Sa Midas.
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. RECTO. Okay, sige. Thank you.
Tutal sa Midas na itopara ikumpleto ko lang iyong istorya,
nandito naman iyong Pagcor. Pagcor, kayo ang operator ng casino sa
Midas.
MR. MANALASTAS. Yes, Your Honor.
SEN. RECTO.

Okay.

Kung magkakaroon tayo ng anti-money

laundering, isasama natin iyong casino, ito bang si Kim Wong makoconsider ninyong suspicious character? Ano sa tingin ninyo?

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MR. MANALASTAS. Under what conditions po?


SEN. RECTO. Hindi, tinatanong kita. No, I want to understand.
If you are a casino operator--iyan ang problema sa inyo, Pagcor, you
are a regulator and an operator at the same time.
MR. MANALASTAS. Yes, sir.
SEN. RECTO. Parang may mali yata doon, hindi ba? Why are
you operating casinos when you are also a regulator?
MR. MANALASTAS. Well, iyon ho ang mandate nung aming
the law that created Pagcor.
SEN. RECTO.

Mayroon akong panukala na baguhin na iyan.

Anyway, having said that, kung kayo subject kayo sa money


laundering, masasabi mo ba lahat ng nagka-casino doon sa VIP junket
operations ninyo, lahat iyon suspicious character o hindi?
MR. MANALASTAS.

Hindi po.

First, if I may, Your Honor?

Anybody who enters the casino


SEN. RECTO. Junket operations lang ang pinag-uusapan, hindi
iyong mass market.
MR. MANALASTAS.

Oho, even junket operations.

Anybody

who is enrolled in the junket play is known to the operator.

So all

funds, all monies that you will be bringing in

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SEN. RECTO. So hindi lahat iyon suspicious character.


MR. MANALASTAS. Hindi po. Because all accounted for iyong
kanilang checkin money or fund(?) money.
SEN. RECTO.

So, tingin nyo regular talaga natatalo ng 400

million, 500 million. Hindi nakakapagtaka saan nanggaling iyong pera


ng mga iyan?
MR. MANALASTAS. As far as losses nila, its a regular thing, in
fact.
SEN. RECTO.

I know.

Ako, tingin ko kasi lahat ng mga

naglalarong ganyan suspicious character.


Mr. Wong, kayo ba puwedeng makapunta ng China?
MR. WONG. Ako po?
SEN. RECTO. Nakakapunta kayo ng China?
MR. WONG. Hindi pa ako pumupunta ng China.
SEN. RECTO. Hindi puwede?
MR. WONG.

Hindi ko po alam.

Puwede nyo pong pa-check.

Hindi ko po alam.
SEN. RECTO. Hindi mo alam. Hindi mo alam kung bawal kang
pumasok sa China?

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MR. WONG.

Hindi ko po alam.

Puwede nyo i-check.

Kasi

negosyo ko casino.
SEN. RECTO. Okay. So, thank you, Pagcor, for your reply.
So, maliwanag, of the 4 billion, 25 percent accounted for, 1
billion, pumasok sa inyo, pumasok sa Midas, nilaro sa Midas.

May

natirang pera pa ba diyan, Pagcor?


MR. MANALASTAS. If you are referring to junket operations, I
think the PIKI is more in a position to answer it because they are our
sub
SEN. RECTO. Youre passing that. You are the operator and the
regulator at the same time.

And now youre telling meIm asking

you. Im not asking LRWC.


MR. MANALASTAS. Kasi, sir, ganito iyon.
SEN. RECTO. No, no, my point is this. Mahalaga itong issue na
ito. Pang-ilang hearing na natin ito? Pagcor kayo. Nag-aral na kayo
dapat dito.

Ngayon tatanungin ko, sasayangin nyo ang oras ko,

sasabihin nyo, Sila ang sumagot ng tanong na ito. May pera bang
natitira?

Ikaw ang tinatanong ko.

Kung hindi mo alam ang sagot,

sabihin mo hindi mo alam.

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MR. MANALASTAS. Sir, can I explain muna how the situation is


ano. We lease casino area from the Midas Hotel. Now, here comes a
junket operator who wants
SEN. RECTO. Mr. Manalastas, I understand how that operates.
You think I did not study for this hearing?

I understand how that

operates.
MR. MANALASTAS. Its just that, sir, that you wanted
SEN. RECTO.

Have you submitted all the records to AMLA

already? Have they conducted you already?


MR. MANALASTAS. Yes, Your Honor.
SEN. RECTO. Have you submitted all the records?
MR. MANALASTAS. We did.
SEN. RECTO. Did you read those records that you submitted to
them?
MR. MANALASTAS. Yes, sir.
SEN. RECTO. Okay. So, may pera pa bang natitira?
MR. MANALASTAS. As far as we know, there is.
SEN. RECTO. There is. Magkano? Alam mo pala iyong sagot.
MR. MANALASTAS. Sir, youre referring to Midas. But what I
can answer is sa Solaire.

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SEN. RECTO. Im sorry?


MR. MANALASTAS. Sa Solaire Casino ho ang alam namin.
SEN. RECTO. Hindi, mamaya ko pa tatanungin iyan.
MR. MANALASTAS. Sa Midas ho, wala kaming
SEN. RECTO. Huh?
MR. MANALASTAS. Wala ho.
SEN. RECTO. Walang natira.
MR. MANALASTAS.

Wala ho.

Sir, we have no information

regarding the Midas junket play. Thats what Im referring to.


SEN. RECTO. Okay. But you are the operator. But you lease it
out. You sublease it.
MR. MANALASTAS. Yes, sir.
SEN. RECTO.

But you submitted all the documents to AMLA.

And hindi nyo natingnan kung may natirang pera.


MR. MANALASTAS. Mayroon po, sir, sa Solaire.
SEN. RECTO.

Hindi nga Solaire ang tinatanong ko.

Sa Midas

nga.
MR. MANALASTAS.

No, Im referring to our report to AMLC,

sir.
SEN. RECTO. So wala kayong report tungkol sa Midas?

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MR. MANALASTAS. Wala ho.


SEN. RECTO.

Okay.

Thank you.

Just answer the question

directly para mabilis tayo. Kulang iyong oras, hindi ba? Okay.
Now, Philrem, so 1 billion went there. How much did you remit
to Solaire?
MS. BAUTISTA. Peso value, Your Honor?
SEN. RECTO. Puwedeng peso.
MS. BAUTISTA. One billion three hundred sixty-five million.
SEN. RECTO. Remit iyon, 1.365 billion.
MS. BAUTISTA. Yes, sir, total. Broken down ho iyon.
SEN. RECTO. And galing sa Philrem iyan?
MS. BAUTISTA. Yes, sir.
SEN. RECTO. Did you remit any money to Centurytex Trading?
MS. BAUTISTA. Yes, sir. I deposited pesos/alicc

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MS. BAUTISTA. I deposited pesos to Centurytex.


SEN. RECTO.

You deposited how much to Centurytex?

Six

hundred fifty-five million?


MS. BAUTISTA. Sir, 640,980,000 tapos may dalawa pa ho.
SEN. RECTO. Thereabouts?
MS. BAUTISTA. Oho, may dalawa pa ho.
SEN. RECTO. Okay. So from the same amount of moneyfrom
the $61 million, naging 2.9 billion, you remitted one billion, napunta
kay Kim Wong or at least iyong kumpanya niya, nabayaran iyong 450
niya, tapos napunta sa ilang casino, right? And then you also give 655
million to Centurytex.
Lahat ito, three-fourths of the money found its way in casinos?
MS. BAUTISTA. Yes, Your Honor, all of it.
SEN. RECTO. Hindi ba? Not all of it, three-fourths pa lang na
maliwanag na galing sa bangko that went through the banking
systemthree-fourths went to the casino2.9 billion roughly of four
billion, maliwanag went to the casino na. Okay.
And then nabanggit ninyo in the first two hearingsfirst hearing,
sabi ninyo, 600 million lang ang na-deliver ninyo sa isang Weikang
Xuano ang pangalan noon?

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MS. BAUTISTA. Sorry, Your Honor. Iyong report ho namin sa


AMLC kumpleto po iyon.
SEN. RECTO. No, no. I am talking about here in the Senate.
In the Senate, you said in the first hearing, you delivered personally
and with the staff to a certain Weikang Xu.
MS. BAUTISTA. Weikang Xu. Its 600 million and $18 million.
SEN. RECTO. Six hundred million pesos, right?
MS. BAUTISTA. And 18 million.
SEN. RECTO. No, no, no. In the first hearing, you said 600
million.

In the first hearing nga, you said ang kinita mo lang 500.

Okay.
In the second hearing, you said 600 million and $18 million
already. Okay. And you said all of this was delivered to Weikang Xu
whatever that name is.
Now, Mr. Wong is saying that that is not true.
saying that you only deliveredwhat?

Magkano?

Mr. Wong is

Eighty plus 20 to

Mr. Weikang Xuwhatever his name is. And iyong balanse, siya ang
kumuha sa bahay ninyo. Iyon ang sinasabi niya.
So it would appear to me at that point in time, you were
protecting the name of Mr. Wong na you were giving a different
name600 million, I delivered it to this person; $18 million, I

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delivered it to this person. Hindi niya binabanggit si Mr. Wong. This


other guy, who apparently according to Kim Wong now is saying that
guy has loaned the total ball. And that there are other people involved
who are the higher-ups. And, you know, I am bad with Chinese names
so please forgive meMr. Gao and another one, right? Okay. And I
am glad that incidentally
Solaire, you have the passports of all these people, right?
MR. S. TAN. Yes, Your Honor.
SEN. RECTO. So you do have a know your client rule in the
casino, right?
MR. S. TAN. Yes, Your Honor.
SEN. RECTO.

To that extent.

And you have submitted all of

these to AMLC.
MR. S. TAN. Thats correct, Your Honor.
SEN. RECTO.

Does that prevent you from submitting any of

these and everything you submitted to AMLC to this Committee?


MR. S. TAN. We have submitted a copy of our internal report
that we submitted to Pagcor. We have submitted it to the ComSec,
Your Honor, about 10:30 this morning.
SEN. RECTO. Because I am sure that those pictures are leads
also for foreign investigators for the bank of this government later on

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MR. S. TAN. We understand, Your Honor.


SEN. RECTO. for them to find out who these hackers are.
MR. S. TAN. Yes, Your Honor.
SEN. RECTO. Here a lead toward that, right?
MR. S. TAN. Yes, Your Honor.
SEN. RECTO. Okay. Now, let me continue.
Mr. Wong, so youre a junket operator in Eastern Hawaii or in
Midas?
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. RECTO. And in Solaire?
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. RECTO. Okay. Ilan kayong junket operator sa Solaire?
MR. S. TAN. Can I answer it, Your Honor?
SEN. RECTO. No. I am askingO, sige, pwede, sure.
Mr. Benny Tan.
MR. S. TAN.

Your Honor, there are two kinds of junket

operators. Fixed room junket operator, they will have their own room,
they will have their own chips; and casual junket operator, no fixed
room.
SEN. RECTO. Okay.

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MR. S. TAN. There are about 88 casual junket operators, Your


Honor, and about nine fixed room junket operators in Solaire.
SEN. RECTO. Sino iyong mga malalaki diyan? Who are the big
ones? Is Mr. Wong one of the biggest? Are you saying the top three,
top fourwhat is that?
MR. S. TAN.

Actually, Mr. Kim Wong is not a formal junket

operator in the sense that he has no junket contract with us, Your
Honor. We consider him a junket agent. He brings in people. He gets
commission.
SEN. RECTO. Okay. How much business does he give you in a
month?
MR. S. TAN. I am sorry. I did not get that information. I dont
have that information with me now, Your Honor.
SEN. RECTO.

Mr. Wong, gaano kalaki iyong magnitude ng

operation mo? Sa isang buwan, magkano ang tantiya mo?


MR. WONG.

Sa Midas po, umiikot po ang pera namin, hindi

bumababa ng seven billion.


SEN. RECTO. A month?
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. RECTO. Galing mo, ano?
Sa Solaire, magkano naman?

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MR. WONG. Sa Solaire, hindi ko po masabi.


SEN. RECTO. Mas malaki doon?
MR. WONG. Hindikumporme sa player every month.
SEN. RECTO. So what, 15 billion a month kaseven billion dito,
seven billion, eight billion, thereabouts?
MR. WONG. Hindi. Umiikot lang ho iyon.
SEN. RECTO. Gross10 billion a month?
MR. WONG. Hindi ko po masabi.
SEN. RECTO. Hindi mo masabi.
MR. WONG. Kasi hindi pantay-pantay pero billion po, opo.
SEN. RECTO. Okay. So itongiyong one billion na napunta sa
Midas and then iyong 1.9 na balanse1.6 na napunta sa Solaire, more
or lessmagkano ba iyong sa Solaire?
MR. WONG. I think one million three hundred sixty-five.
SEN. RECTO. One point three.
MR. S. TAN. One point three six-five billion pesos, Your Honor.
SEN. RECTO.

Okay.

So 2.3 na ang maliwanag sa casino

napunta. Okay.
Mr. Wong, masasabi mo ba dahil sa iyo rin itong 1.3 na galing sa
Philrem, napunta sa Solaire ay dahil sa inyo rin iyon?

Player mo rin

iyon.

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MR. WONG. Opo, pinakilala ko po.


SEN. RECTO. Tama?
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. RECTO. Okay. So may commission ka doon sa one billion
plus the 1.3?
MR. WONG.

Puwede ninyo pong itanong sa Solaire, wala po

akong commission doon. Diretso silang nag-check in sa treasury ng


Solaire at diretso nag-open ng account, iyon, wala po akong
commission doon.
SEN. RECTO. Teka.
MR. WONG. Puwede ninyo pong itanong sa Solaire.
SEN. RECTO. Sige, sige, naiintindihan ko. Sige, sige. Okay.
Anyway, the point is this, dahil sa isang koneksyun mo na
nagkautang sa iyo, pumasok iyong perang itong, more or less four
billion ito, na-account na natin dito more or less 2.3. Okay.
Nasaan iyong balanse, Mr. Wong? Plus the 600 million, kasama
na iyong $5 million doon, hindi ba? Am I correct, Mr. Wong?
MR. WONG. Ganito po.
SEN. RECTO. O, sige nga. May nawawalang pera pa ba?
MR. WONG. May nawawala.
SEN. RECTO. Mayroon, hindi ba?

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MR. WONG. Mayroon po. Tama po kayo.


SEN. RECTO. Oo, sige. Okay. Thank you.
MR. WONG.

One point three, hindi ba po1.365 billion plus

one billion, 2.365 po, hindi ba?


SEN. RECTO. Yes.
MR. WONG.

Iyong 100 million po dinala ni Maia at saka ni

Concon plus kinuha ko po iyong 300 million is 400 po, hindi ba?
SEN. RECTO. Okay, tama.
MR. WONG. Opo. At iyong $5 million po, nandiyan po, tapos
hindi ba poito pong 2.365, hindi ba nandiyan na po sa Solaire, Midas
po, iyong 400 million na cashhindi ba iyong 100, 100, 100400
million.
SEN. RECTO. Natatandaan ko.
MR. WONG.

At saka iyong $5 million, iyon ang parang

equivalent to 600 million something po, tama po?


SEN. RECTO. Tama. So may 1718 million dollars
MR. WONG. Opo. Iyong $17 million po, iyon ang sinasabi ko
po, na kina Concon po.
SEN. RECTO. Nasa Philrem pa rin?
MR. WONG. Opo, opo.
SEN. RECTO. Okay. Kasi tama, may 81 million/mpm

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SEN. RECTO. may 81 million na natanggap ang Philrem; may


61 na pinalitan ng pesoseto tinelegraphic (telegraphic) transfer
lahat-lahat mayroon nga naman talagang natitira.
Concon, mayroon ba kayong alam na Awal na mayroong $10
million?
MR. BAUTISTA. Yes, he is a client.
SEN. RECTO. He is a client.
Who give instructions naman na bigyan mo sila ng $10 million, si
Maia din?
MR. BAUTISTA. No. Well
SEN. RECTO. So, wala nang kinalaman si Maia dito?
MR. BAUTISTA. Sir, first of all, I would like to deny what he is
saying, that 17 million is with us. We delivered everything.
SEN. RECTO. Okay.
MR. BAUTISTA. And that the $10 million that went to Awal, we
actually converted that all to cash to which we also used to deliver to
them.
SEN. RECTO. To whom?
MR. BAUTISTA. To Weikang Xu and themfor those players.

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SEN. RECTO. Siguraduhin mo. To Mr. Kim Wong or to Weikang


Xu?
MR. BAUTISTA. They were together, sir.
SEN. RECTO. They were together.
MR. BAUTISTA. Yes, sir.
SEN. RECTO. So, in all the deliveries, they were together.
MR. BAUTISTA. Yes, sir.
SEN. RECTO. Thats what youre claiming.
MR. BAUTISTA. Yes, sir.
SEN. RECTO. Pero ang sinasabi ni Mr. Wong, may nawawalang
17, 18
MR. BAUTISTA. I delivered everything, sir. I did not keep a
single centavo that was not meant for us.
SEN. RECTO. Okay. What about Werquick Hindi ba tinanong
ko ito noong first hearing, you have a company named Werquick.
MS. BAUTISTA. Yes, Your Honor.
THE CHAIRMAN. Yes. And theres 1.65 million there?
MR. BAUTISTA. Actually, sir, a portion of the difference of the
81 million, we actually bought for ourselves, for our own business on
the conversion of the requirements that we needed on certain rates(?).

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So if you will check our report, we actually converted a few amounts


into ours, and thats what we used for our daily transactions.
SEN. RECTO. So, more or less, iyong kinita rin ninyo, parang
ganoon?
MR. BAUTISTA.

Sir, if you will read our complete report, we

basically earned just on the conversion. So we bid a certain rate and


we traded it with Treasury with a certain rate.

And thats the only

thing we have.
SEN. RECTO.

Yeah.

Unless hindi nga ninyo na-deliver iyong

$17, $18 million. Unless, huh. Baka iba iyong sinasabi ng isa.
Anyway, what about iyong YXR Trading?
MS. BAUTISTA. Yes, Your Honor, a client of ours also.
SEN. RECTO.

But that came also from the Philrem Unimart

$81million.
MS. BAUTISTA.

Yes, Your Honor, pero hindi po siya related

transaction. Regular transaction po namin iyon.


SEN. RECTO.

Okay.

Kasi maliwanag kasi iyong 61 pinalitan,

iyong 20 wala. But you are claiming thatNow, youre changing your
testimony from the first hearing that you said, Everything was
delivered to Weikang Xu. And then, none of you wanted to mention

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the name of Mr. Wong, it would appear to me. And now you are
saying, We delivered it to both of them and, in some instances, they
picked it up from our home.
MS. BAUTISTA. No, sir. Dineliber namin kay Weikang Xu, that
was the instruction of the branch manager.
SEN. RECTO. Yeah, we heard that already.
At lahat kayo magkakilala. You all know each other, one way or
the other. And I dont expect any of you to say naman that, Hey, we
knew that this will come from an unlawful activity. Hey, we knew that
this will be from a heist job or from a cybercrime or a hacky.

I dont

expect you to say that, but, you know, the facts are the facts
pinakilala sa isang tao ito, open account; accounts were opened,
money came in; money went to Mr. Go; went to Philrem; exchanged in
RCBC; remitted to Mr. Wong; remitted to casinos; theres a portion not
in the casinos; twenty-five percent is not in the casinos. Hindi, inisip
ko lang, baka commission naman iyon.
Anyway, finally, to Pagcor, since we are talking about AMLA,
payag kayong mapasok ang casino sa AMLA, hindi ba?
MR. MANALASTAS. Yes, sir.

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SEN. RECTO.

That makes Pagcor, if youre operating casinos,

you are both a regulator and an operator.

Hindi ba nakakapagtaka

iyon that you regulate your own self? Pwede ba iyon?


MR. MANALASTAS.

Well, from the private sector, from the

private investors, it is quite a


SEN. RECTO. Anomaly.
MR. MANALASTAS. I guess, sir.
SEN. RECTO. Okay. So thats good. At least we have that on
record.
Ang BSP is just a regulator?
MR. ESPENILLA. Yes, Your Honor.
SEN. RECTO. You dont operate a bank, except the BSP itself?
MR. ESPENILLA. Yes, Your Honor.
SEN. RECTO. Okay. So what is your recommendation? Do you
have a recommendation for AMLA purposes, a threshold amount or
suspicious transaction lang or?
MR. MANALASTAS.

Sir, in the Lower House, we have been

participatory in providing inputs for the House Bill 6182.


SEN. RECTO. Sige, just submit that to the Committee.
MR. MANALASTAS. The threshold here is about four million.

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SEN. RECTO. Four million.


MR. MANALASTAS. Yes, sir.
SEN. RECTO. Okay. So thats your recommendation.
Sige, finally, one last question with RCBC. Noong nagpapalit ng
pera ang Philrem sa inyo, roughly $400 million and $5 million dollar,
according to Mr. Wonghindi, Im sorry, 61 million pinapalitan into
pesos, a large amount was telegraphic transfererred, magkano iyong
cash na winidrow (withdraw) nila?

Baka doon ang sagot para kung

sino ang nagsisinungaling.


MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.
specifically the Philrem account.

Your Honor, we cant discuss

We were not given a waiver from Ms.

Bautista.
SEN. RECTO.

Philrem, magkano ang winidrow (withdraw)

ninyong cash sa RCBC?


MS. BAUTISTA.

Sir, I have to check lang my records.

I will

submit it to you in the next hearing. Totoo po, promise.


SEN. RECTO. But you withdrew dollars and pesos?
MS. BAUTISTA. Yes, Your Honor. In different banks as well.
SEN. RECTO. No, from the Unimart branch.

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MS. BAUTISTA. Meron din po, Your Honor. Kailangan ko lang


hong makuha iyong eksaktong figures namin, breakdown.
SEN. RECTO. Oo. Tantiya mo, magkano kaya on Unimart lang?
A hundred million?
MS. BAUTISTA. Your Honor, hindi ko masabi. I will check.
SEN. RECTO. Okay. So, finally, RCBC, it would appear to me
Several days ito, hindi ba, when you gave it toHow many days pala
iyong delivery nito to Mr. Wong and to
MS. BAUTISTA. February 5 to 13.
SEN. RECTO.

So, eight days.

Okay, eight days.

And then,

there were dates kanina given.


Just for protocol, ang bangko ba magkano ang cash ang
available sa isang branch?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Your Honor, it depends on the
size of the branch. It could be 5 million for a medium sized bank.
SEN. RECTO. Unimart.
MR. R. TAN. Probably, around between five to 10.
SEN. RECTO. Five to 10. So kung may magwi-withdraw ng 20,
30, 40, 50, 100 million, walang perang ganoon iyong branch?

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MR. R. TAN.

Normally, the branch will request from the cash

center.
SEN. RECTO. And the cash center is where, head office?
MR. R. TAN. In this case, probably the head office.
SEN. RECTO. Head office.
MR. R. TAN. Yes, Your Honor.
SEN. RECTO. And how much cash would the head office have?
MR. R. TAN. That could be a lot, Your Honor.
SEN. RECTO. Magkano ang tantiya mo?
MR. R. TAN. It can actually reach 500 to a billion.
SEN. RECTO. Five hundred to a billion.
But hindi ba kayo magtataka din diyan if, for example, someone
in one branch would request cash na 400 million and $5 million?
Nakakapagtaka ba iyon?
MR. R. TAN. Well, for certain clients, thats not really unusual
/jmb

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MR. R. TAN. thats not really unusual especially if these are


moneychangers.
SEN. RECTO. Na withdrawal?
MR. R. TAN. Yes, sir.
SEN. RECTO. And pag Philrem, hindi nakakapagtaka iyon?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. We really cannot speak without
the waiver from Ms. Bautista, Your Honor.
SEN. RECTO. [Laughter] Okay.
So Mr. Chairman, thank you very much for the time that youve
given me. I hope that we were able to clarify the events also here,
how they look, at least, in my eyes.
So thank you very much, Your Honor.
THE CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Recto.
Next to ask question is Senator Juan Ponce Enrile.
SEN. ENRILE.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have very few

questions. I just want to understand how this whole thing began.


Mr. Kim, when were the five dollar accounts opened? Kailan ba
binuksan iyong mga five dollar accounts, 500?
MR. WONG. May 13, 2015.
SEN. ENRILE. 2015?

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MR. WONG. Opo.


SEN. ENRILE.

Ngayon, bago binuksan iyonglimang account

iyon, ano?
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. ENRILE. Picache, Vergara, Vasquez, Cruz and Lagrosas,
di ba? Di ba?
MR. WONG. Opo. Kay Gao po iyon, iyong sa junket ko po.
SEN. ENRILE.

Noong May 13, 2015, limang account iyong

binuksan, di ba?
MR. WONG. Opo, nung junket player ko po.
SEN. ENRILE.

Ngayon, nasa record namin, binuksan sa

pangalan ng limang taoPicache, Cruz, Vergara, di ba, Lagrosas and


Vasquez. Alam mo ba iyong mga pangalan na iyon?
MR. WONG. Hindi ko po alam.
SEN. ENRILE.

Hindi.

Pero alam mo na limang tao, limang

account? Hindi rin?


MR. WONG. Sila po ang nag-usap. Hindi ko po masyado
SEN. ENRILE. Sinong sila?
MR. WONG. Si Gao po at saka si Maia. Sinabi lang ni Gao na
limang account po.

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SEN. ENRILE. So ang nag-usap para mabuksan iyong limang


account noong May 13, 2015 ay si Maia Deguito at saka si Shuhua
Gao?
MR. WONG. Opo. Nandoon lang po ako.
SEN. ENRILE. Oo, nandun ka. Saan kayo nag-meeting nuon,
sa opisina mo?
MR. WONG. Doon po mismo sa office ko, sa Midas.
SEN. ENRILE. Huh?
MR. WONG. Sa Midas po.
SEN. ENRILE. Sa Midas, opisina mo.
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. ENRILE. Bago dumating iyong araw na iyon na nag-usap
kayo, paano nangyari na pumunta si Mrs. Deguito, si Maia, doon sa
Midas at ganoon din si Mr. Gao para mag-usap kayo?

Ano ba ang

nagsimula niyan? Paano lumitaw iyong pagbubukas ng mga account


na iyan? Kung puwede mong istoryahin sa amin.
MR. WONG.

Opo.

Matagal ko pong tinanong kay Maia kung

puwedeng mabuksan ng account pag dumating itong player ko. Sabi


niya puwede. Sabi ko ise-set ko sila para mag-usap.

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SEN. ENRILE. Bakit mo tinanong iyon kay Maia? Anong nagudyok sa iyo o dahilan at tinanong mo iyong question na iyon kay
Maia?
MR. WONG. Kasi po palagi niya akong kinukulit na magbukas
ng account sa RCBC.

Sabi ko po sa kanya mayroon akong guest

junket, may utang sa akin.

Kung gusto mo, ipakilala kita para

magbukas po ng account.
SEN. ENRILE.

Bakit? Si Mr. Gao tinanong ka kung paano

magbukas ng dollar account sa Pilipinas?


MR. WONG. Opo, tinanong niya ako. Sabi ko hindi ko po alam
iyan kung paano.
SEN. ENRILE.

Hindi mo tinanong kay Mr. Gao, Bakit mo

gustong mag-open ng dollar account?


MR. WONG. Sabi niya po nung una kasi magpapadala siya sa
akin ng pera raw para pambayad. Tapos iyong una pong pagkasabi sa
akin, may malaking lote siya sa Beijing, ibebenta para ipadala sa akin.
SEN. ENRILE. May lupa siya sa Cavite?
MR. WONG. Hindi, sa Beijing po. Sa Beijing, China, malaki ang
lote niya po roon.
SEN. ENRILE. Ganoon?

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MR. WONG. Opo.


SEN. ENRILE. Ngayon, nung nag-meeting na kayo noong May
13, 2015 doon sa opisina mo, kayoikaw, si Maia at saka si Mr. Gao
napag-usapan na ninyo na magbukas ng account?
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. ENRILE.

Ngayon, si Mr. Gao, marunong bang mag-

Tagalog, mag-Ingles o?
MR. WONG. Nakakaintindi kaunting English pero ako po nagtatranslate.
SEN. ENRILE. Ikaw ang naging translator.
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. ENRILE. Nag-uusap sila ni Maia?
MR. WONG.

Opo, tina-translate ko po.

Pero nakakaintindi

kaunting English po.


SEN. ENRILE. Samakatuwid, alam mo kung ano iyong pinagusapan nila sapagkat ikaw ang translator.
MR. WONG. Opo, sir.
SEN. ENRILE.

Anong purpose ni Mr. Gao na magbubukas ng

dollar account dito? Ano iyong intindi mo doon sa usapan ni Maia at


saka ni Mr. Gao bakit niya kailangang magbukas? Dahil magbabayad

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siya ng utang niya sa iyo o dahil gusto niyang magdala ng pera upang
magsugal sa Pilipinas?
MR. WONG. Ang sabi niya po sa akin, ibebenta niya iyong lote
niya para makapagbayad sa akin.

At saka matagal ko na siyang

junket, tuloy-tuloy po negosyo namin.


SEN. ENRILE. Iyong negosyo ninyo.
MR. WONG. Opo, dito sa Midas. At saka sa Solaire, naglalaro
rin siya, may dala rin siyang player.

Eight years ko na po siyang

kilala.
SEN. ENRILE.

Samakatuwid, si Mr. Gao ay kliyente mo sa

sugal.
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. ENRILE. Matagal na.
MR. WONG. Matagal na po. At saka nagdadala rin po siya ng
player.
SEN. ENRILE. At mayroon siyang utang sa iyo, ganoon ba?
MR. WONG. Opo. Kasi naglaro siya one time po sa Solaire kasi
junket siya at saka sugarol siya.

So naglaro po sa Solairepuwede

niyo pa-check sa Solaire ang pangalan niya na nakapagtalo siya ng


450 million.

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SEN. ENRILE. Iyon ang limit niya.


MR. WONG. Ang limit niya po sa akin
SEN. ENRILE.

Sa mga casino ba may mga limit iyong mga

players ninyo kung magkano ang ibibigay ninyo sa kanila na credit


para magsugal?
MR. WONG.

Opo, mayroong limit.

Ang limit niya po sa akin

500 million.
SEN. ENRILE. Ang credit niya sa iyo.
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. ENRILE. Ang limit niya 500 million.
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. ENRILE. Natalo siya ng 450 million.
MR. WONG. Opo, opo. May record po iyan pagka-pinakuha sa
Solaire. Para maipakita sa inyo iyon pong katotohanan.
SEN. ENRILE. At iyong talo niya na 450 million ay hindi niya
nabayaran.
MR. WONG. Hindi po.

Iyon ang utang ko ngayon sa Solaire.

SEN. ENRILE. Pero ikaw ang nagbayad.


MR. WONG. Hindi pa po. Hinuhulug-hulugan ko po sa Solaire,
may record po rin ang Solaire.

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SEN. ENRILE. Samakatuwid, siya ang may utang sa Solaire.


MR. WONG. Hindi po. Ako ang may utang sa Solaire kasi ako
ang kumuha ng pera, pinalaro ko siya.
utang sa Solaire.

So ako po ngayon ang may

So nung hindi ho siya nagbabayad, ako iyong

dahan-dahang naghuhulog sa Solaire, minsan 100 million, minsan 20


million. Lahat po, kinarga sa akin.
Nung dumating po itong pera na ito, iyong 1B na pinasok sa
Eastern Hawaii, nag-withdraw ako ng 200 million. Binayaran ko rin po
sa Solaire 200 million. Kasi may utang po ako sa Solaire kaya
SEN. ENRILE.

Doon sa 450 na talo niya, binabayaran mo sa

Solaire.
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. ENRILE. Nung mangyari itong money laundering na ito,
magkano ang balanse na hindi pa nababayaran?
MR. WONG. Ang hindi ko pa po nababayaran is 290 million.
SEN. ENRILE. Two hundred ninety million.
MR. WONG. Opo, sa Solaire.
SEN. ENRILE. Ngayon, noong si Mr. Ding Zhize/jbc

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SEN. ENRILE. Mr. Ding Zhize-MR. WONG.

Opo, sir.

SEN. ENRILE.
MR. WONG.

--paano naman napasok ito?


First time ko lang po siya na-meet sa Solaire po

noong pinakilala sa akin ng February 4 po. Sabi ho sa akin ni-SEN. ENRILE.


MR. WONG.

February 4 nitong taon na ito?

Opo.

SEN. ENRILE.

Ngayon, before that--bago doon sa pagkakilala

mo, hindi mo pa siya nakikita?


MR. WONG.

Hindi pa po. At saka pwede naman siguro po i-

check sa immigration kung kailan po siya dumating.


SEN. ENRILE.
MR. WONG.

Oo nga.

Opo, opo. Hindi ko pa po nakikita, sir.

SEN. ENRILE.

Hindi mo pa nakita siya maliban doon sa araw

na iyon?
MR. WONG.

Opo, sir.

SEN. ENRILE.
MR. WONG.

Si Mr. Gao po.

SEN. ENRILE.
MR. WONG.

Okay. Sino ang nagpakilala sa iyo sa kanya?

Si Mr. Gao?

Opo, iyong matagal ko hong junket po.

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SEN. ENRILE.

Ngayon, bago noong May 13, 2015 na nag-usap

kayo ni Mr. Gao kasama si Maia tungkol sa pag-open ng account,


gaano mo na katagal kilala si Mr. Gao?
MR. WONG.

Mga eight years na po.

SEN. ENRILE.

Eight years na?

MR. WONG.

Opo, opo. Tuloy-tuloy po.

Kasi po minsan po

August last year nagtanong po ako kay Maia, Paano po makapag .


dollars? Sabi niya kailangan kumpanya po. So sinabi ko kay Mr. Gao,
kailangan kumpanya po para makapagdala po ng dollar po sa Pilipinas.
Sabi ko ho sa kanya kailangan kumpanya po.
SEN. ENRILE.

Ngayon, doon sa eight years na iyon nagsusugal

na siya?
MR. WONG. Nagsusugal po, nagdadala po ng player. May record
po tayo. Mayroon po akong record, pwede ko pong i-submit po.
SEN. ENRILE.

Ngayon, ano ang highestang limit niya noong

primero na makilala mo siya?


MR. WONG.

Ang primero po ang highest po niya mga 200

million po.
SEN. ENRILE.
MR. WONG.

Two hundred million?

Opo, ang credit line niya po sa akin.

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SEN. ENRILE.

At nagsugal siya, kung natatalo nagbabayad

siya, walang ?
MR. WONG.

Opo, regularly po. Kasi po may junket din po siya

sa Macau, itong si Gao. Kasi bumagsak na po ngayon, hindi ba mahina


na ang casino sa Macau?
SEN. ENRILE.

Oo.

MR. WONG.

Kaya po siya pumunta rito. Pero dati po may

junket po siya sa Macau.


SEN. ENRILE.

Ngayon, alam mo na nagbabayad naman siya

ng utang sa iyo sa kanyang mga pagkatalo?


MR. WONG.

Opo, opo. May ibang guest po, palagi ho.

May

transaction pa ho kami. May transaction pa po.


SEN. ENRILE.

Ngayon, hindi mo kilala kung ano ang negosyo

niya na bakit kaya napakalakas magsugal nito, anong negosyo nito sa


China?
MR. WONG.

Sir, kasi po nagdadala po siya ng player.

Ang

negosyo po niya iyong casino din po.


SEN. ENRILE.
MR. WONG.

Nagdadala ng player?
Opo, marami po, regularly po kami, matagal na

po.

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SEN. ENRILE.
MR. WONG.

Nagdadala ng player?
Opo, kaya lang minsan lang po siya nagsugal

nagsusugal din siya konti pero majority po marami siyang player.


SEN. ENRILE.

Okay. Ngayon, siya ang nagpakilala sa iyo kay

Mr. Zhize?
MR. WONG.

Ding po.

SEN. ENRILE.
MR. WONG.

Kay Mr. Ding?

Opo.

SEN. ENRILE.

Ngayon, anong sinabi niya noong ipinakilala sa

iyo si Mr. Ding?


MR. WONG.

Sabi niya po sa akin may ipapadalang pera po,

mag-i-invest daw dito at mayroon po kaming agreement lahat ng pera


na dadalhin dito hindi nila ika-cash at ilalagay sa casino para
magkaroon ng junket.
SEN. ENRILE.
MR. WONG.

At saka si Gao po.

SEN. ENRILE.
MR. WONG.

Si Mr. Ding--

Pinakilala ni Mr. Gao sa iyo si Mr. Ding?

Opo.

SEN. ENRILE.

Na investor?

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MR. WONG.

Opo, na magdadala ng pera at may commitment

basta dumating ang pera dito hindi po isusugal.


SEN. ENRILE.

Hindi isusugal?

MR. WONG.

Opo--Ay isusugal po, hindi ho kukuning cash po,

sorry po.
SEN. ENRILE.

Ngayon, hindi sinabi sa iyo na si Mr. Ding ay

sugarol din?
MR. WONG.

Marami din po siyang player. Nagdala na nga ho

almost siya 20 plus players po.


SEN. ENRILE.
MR. WONG.

Nagdala si Ding ng 20 plus players po.

SEN. ENRILE.
MR. WONG.

Huh?

Nagdala si Ding?

Opo sa Solaire po ng 20 plus players.

SEN. ENRILE.

Twenty?

MR. WONG.

Twenty plus ho. Alam po ni Mr. Tan po.

MR. S. TAN.

Your Honor, our record shows Ding brought in 18.

THE CHAIRMAN.

How many?

MR. S. TAN.

Eighteen, one-eight, Your Honor.

MR. WONG.

At nagdala pala po siya 18 players po.

SEN. ENRILE.

Did Mr. Ding--was he a player in Solaire?

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MR. S. TAN.

No, Your Honor, he was introduced by Mr. Gao

and another-SEN. ENRILE.

Mr. Gao?

MR. S. TAN.

Yes, Your Honor, and another long time player

Huang Zheng(?).
SEN. ENRILE.
MR. S. TAN.
SEN. ENRILE.
MR. S. TAN.
SEN. ENRILE.

Huang?
Huang Zheng.
That was the name given?
Yes, Your Honor.
Was that the first time that he was brought into

Solaire?
MR. S. TAN.

Our record shows Ding signed up with one of the

junket operators in January, Your Honor.


SEN. ENRILE.
MR. S. TAN.
SEN. ENRILE.
MR. S. TAN.
SEN. ENRILE.
MR. S. TAN.

January of this year?


Yes, Your Honor.
That was the first time?
Thats correct, Your Honor--Ding, yes.
You do not know the background of Mr. Ding?
No, Your Honor.

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SEN. ENRILE.

Ngayon, noong binuksan iyong apat na accounts

hindi mo alam iyong mga pangalan?


MR. WONG.

Hindi po.

SEN. ENRILE.

Sino ang nakakaalam kaya doon sa mga

accounts na iyon, si Mr. Gao o si Mr. Ding?


MR. WONG.

Si Mr. Gao po.

SEN. ENRILE.
MR. WONG.

Si Mr. Gao?

Opo.

SEN. ENRILE.
MR. WONG.

Paano mong nalaman iyon?


Kasi hindi po ba ako ang nag-interpret kay Maia at

kay Gao. Wala pa ho si Ding, first lang na na-meet ko po sa personal


is February 4 po.
SEN. ENRILE.

Alam mo ba kung noong ipinakilala mo si Maia

Deguito kay Mr. Gao, May 13, 2015, hanggang doon sa February 4
bago dumating iyong pera kung sila ay nagu-usap tungkol doon sa
mga accounts na iyon? Sila, ibig sabihin si Maia at saka si Mr. Gao.
MR. WONG.

Isang beses po nagkita po kami ulit noong

December 8, 2015 po. Kasi po sabi ni Mr. Gao sa akin magbabayad


lang po siya sa pesos.
sa Solaire.

So sabi ko, Maia, baka pwedeng pumunta ka

Noong December 8 po ng bandang gabi po so nag-usap

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sila. So sabi ni Mr. Gao kay Maia na baka pwede po magbukas siya ng
limang accounts na peso kasi nandito na ang pera, ipapadala na lang
peso.
SEN. ENRILE.

Hindi mo alam na may contact si Maia at saka si

Mr. Gao?
MR. WONG.

Hindi ko po alam po.

SEN. ENRILE.

After May 13, 2015 hanggang February 4,

2016?
MR. WONG.

Hindi ko na po alam. Iyon lang ho isa ho nakita

ko nag-usap sila, kami po na sila po ang nagbukas ho ng peso account


noong December 8 po.
SEN. ENRILE.

I have no further question.

THE CHAIRMAN.

Thank you, Senator Enrile.

The nextwell, Senator Koko is not around.


Senator JV Ejercito.
SEN. EJERCITO.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have few questions for Mr. Kim Wong.


Ang sabi ho kasi ni Ms. Maia Deguito ikaw daw ang nag-utos na
buksan iyong mga account. Muli ay pwede ho bang marinig mismo sa
inyo na totoo ba ito o hindi?

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MR. WONG.

Hindi po.

SEN. EJERCITO.

At ang sabi rin ho ni Ms. Deguito noong mga

nakaraang pagdinig ay kayo daw ang nagpakilala doon sa mga may-ari


ng mga naturang mga nabanggit na accountpinakilala daw sa iyo
parang apat na pangalan ito, totoo ho ba ito o hindi?

Iyong apat na

may-ari ng account ay kayo daw ho ang nagpakilala kay Ms. Maia


Deguito?
MR. WONG.

Hindi ko kilala iyon, wala po akong kilala doon

maski isa. Hindi ko nga ho alam kung paano spelling nun.


SEN. EJERCITO.

Muli, siguro isang katanungan lang din, Mr.

Kim Wong, doon ho sa $81 million na nanggaling ho, na pag-aari ho ng


Central Bank ng Bangladesh/rjo

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SEN. EJERCITO. Central Bank ng Bangladesh, mayroon ho ba


kayong kinalaman sa pagpasok nito o bilang junket operator, siyempre
ang habol ninyo lang po ay bayaran kayo doon sa pagkakautang o
mayroon din ho kayong kinalaman doon sa $81 million?
MR. WONG. Sa totoo lang po, wala akong kinalaman. Pero kasi
po sa casino pag nagpunta, maglalaro, hindi ho namin para tanungin,
parang insulto pa ho.

So ganito ang nangyari ngayon, nalaman na

natin ngayon kaya ho gusto ko tumulong para maano itong tao na ito,
itong gumawa ho nito.
SEN.

EJERCITO.

Kasi

madalas

hong

nabanggit

nitong

nakaraang mga hearing ay parang lumalabas na kayo po ang parang


tinuturo na isa sa mga mastermind dahil kayo po ang madalas na nagutos na dito ilagay sa transaksyon na ito, kung magkano ang ilalagay
doon sa mga naturang account, iyon ang nabanggit noong nakaraang
mga hearing.
itinuturo

sa

So ano po ang palagay ninyo bakit ho kaya kayo ang


anomalyang

ito

na

bilang

isa

sa

mga

tingin

na

mastermind?
MR. WONG.

Hindi ko po alam iyon kung paano ho, sa totoo

lang po.

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SEN. EJERCITO.

Kasi po ang lumalabas, Mr. Kim, ay parang

ikaw daw ang nag-utos.

Sa bawat transaksyon na nangyari noong

mga araw na iyon tungkol sa $81 million ay kayo po ang tinuturo na


kayo daw ang nagbigay ng instruction kung saan mapupunta at kung
magkano ang kinakailangang ma-remit doon sa mga account na iyon.
MR. WONG.

Hindi ko talaga alam, at saka wala po akong

inuutos po.
SEN. EJERCITO. At ang isa pa ano, tutal nandito na rin si Mr.
William Go, ay ang pagbubukas daw ng account sa pangalan ni William
Go ay ipinag-utos din daw ninyo, totoo ba po ito o hindi?
MR. WONG. Nandito po si William puwede nyo ho itanong, di
ba po?
SEN. EJERCITO. Hindi, iyon nga
MR. WONG. Hindi po ako ang nagbukas ng account ni William.
Hindi ko po alam sino ang nag-isip noon na buksan. Nagkataon lang
po. Ang laki ng ngayon dahil sinasabi ni Senator Recto na ang dami
kong kaibigan lahat.

Ang dami ko po talagang kaibigan, maski

patawag natin lahat baka mapuno ito lahat.


SEN. EJERCITO. Ang isa rin pong madalas na binabanggit ay
kaya natuloy ang transaksyon na ito dahil sa tingin po ni Ms. Deguito

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ay malapit na kaibigan ninyo si Ginoong Lorenzo Tan na presidente po


ng RCBC.

Siguro gusto ko lang hong marinig muli mula sa inyo, sa

tingin ninyo ba ay may kinalaman o may alam ang inyong kaibigan na


sinasabing si Lorenzo Tan sa transksyong ito?
MR. WONG.

Igagarantiya ko po ng buong buhay ko, wala po

siyang alam dito, si Mr. Tan po. Ako po ang maggagarantiya, sigurado
po.
SEN. EJERCITO. Sige po, salamat po.
May tanong lang din ho ako, kasi noong nakaraang hearing gusto
ko lang hong linawin kay Mr. William Go, ang sabi rin po ni Ms. Deguito
at ayon din sa affidavit, puwede ko na rin munang tanungin bago ho
kayo, andito na rin po si Ms. Angela Torres na siya pong assistant
manager ng Jupiter Branch ng RCBC.
Ayon po sa salaysay ni Ms. Deguito at dahil sinangayunan niyo
rin po, na mayroon hong 20 million na idineliber o isinakay sa
sasakyan po ni Mr. William Go sa labas po ng RCBC Jupiter, totoo ba
ito o hindi?
MS. A. TORRES. Your Honor, hindi ko po masasagot iyan kasi
nag-file na po ng case sa akin si Mr. William Go.

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SEN. EJERCITO. So since ayaw nyo pong sagutin dahil nga sa


kaso Mr. Go, please pakikasi po ang lumalabas ang sabi po noong
isang testigo, nung isa pong resource person natin ay isinakay po ito
sa sasakyan po ni Ms. Maia Deguito, pero ayon naman po sa kanila, ito
daw ay isinakay sa inyo pong Lexus pa na sasakyan sa labas ng RCBC
Jupiter?
MR. W. GO.

Your Honor, hindi po totoo iyong mga sinasabi

niyan. In fact, iyong withdrawal na 20 million kinuha nila February 5


iyong withdrawal.

At iyong isa pa, wala akong account diyan.

ang una ko na sasabihin, wala po akong account sa RCBC.

Iyon
Iyong

kinuha noong February 5 iyong 20 million, ang withdrawal slip po fake.


Forged ang signature ng withdrawal slip. At the same time, pati iyong
mga ID na bineripay (verify) ni Torres, ay hindi naman ID ko, hindi ko
mukha doon sa bineripay (verify) niya. At iyong pagtanggap ng pera,
fake din.
At saka isa pa ho, Your Honor, wala naman akong Lexus na
sinasabi niya dark grey na kotse. May Lexus po ako lumang-luma na.
SUV na champagne po, light.

Talagang malayo ang sinasabi niya

tungkol diyan sa 20 million na iyan.

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Ito ho mayroon akong mga papeles ditong nagpapatunay na


pineyk (fake) po nila iyong pirma pati withdrawal slip.

Sila din

nagbukas ng account. Fake din ang pag-open ng account, lahat fake


iyon.
At saka sinabi ni Mr. Agarrado ba iyon, under oath na malinaw sa
kotse ni Maia Deguito nilagay ang 20 million na iyan.

At may

nabanggit din ngayon si Mr. Kim Wong, may kinlaro nga po ngayon 20
million nasa kotse ni Maia Deguito doon sa Solaire.

Valid na siguro

iyon.
SEN. EJERCITO. May itatanong lang ako, Mr. Chairman. Just a
few more questions to Atty. Julia Bacay-Abad of AMLC.
Ms. Abad, as to your investigation, did you uncover new facts
relative to this case since the last Senate hearing?

The last Senate

hearing was March 17, so are there anything new regarding this case
in that period?
MS. ABAD.

Well, Your Honor, the AMLCs investigation is still

ongoing, we havent terminated our investigation. But since our last


hearing, March 17, the developments were the AMLC filed a criminal
complaint before the Department of Justice against Mr. Kam Sin Wong
a.k.a. Kim Wong, and a certain Mr. Weikang Xu.

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SEN. EJERCITO.

Since you declared that the four dollar

accounts used in these transactions are fictitious, did you find out the
real names of those in the pictures during your investigations?
Because it was recently reported in the news so I just read it, Atty.
Abad, that some pictures were employees of RCBC.

Do you confirm

this?
MS. ABAD.

Well, Your Honor, were not able to identify the

identities of these persons who supposedly opened the four accounts


because based on as I have stated earlier, the identification documents
that were submitted turned out to be fake documents, and when they
supposedly opened the accounts they declared certain employers but
when we verified with these employers, unfortunately were not
connected with these employers. So these are the information that we
gathered, Your Honor.
SEN. EJERCITO. Last but not the least, Mr. Chair, other than
including casinos within the ambit of the Anti-Money Laundering Act,
what reforms would you suggest to give more teeth to the law so that
transactions or anomalies like this will be prevented in the future?
MS. ABAD. Well, I think everybody would agree that we need to
relax the Bank Deposit Secrecy Law, Your Honor.

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SEN. EJERCITO. Thats all, Mr. Chair. Thank you.


THE CHAIRMAN. Thank you.
Before Senator Bam, just a few questions sa AMLC.
You filed a case against Mr. Kim Wong, it seems you filed a case
against all those directly linked ano, allegedly. At this point in time,
allegedly, but have you filed a case against Philrem?
MS. ABAD.

We havent, Your Honor, but as I have said, our

investigation is still ongoing. We havent terminated our investigation.


And the AMLC files appropriate criminal complaint as evidence would
warrant.

So far since the initial stage of our investigation it

alreadycrystal clear to us that those persons who we have charged


before the Department of Justice, it is already clear to us they had
committed acts that would constitute money laundering thats why we
already filed criminal complaints against them. But as Ive said, our
investigation is still ongoing, and depending on the evidence that well
be able to gather, probably more criminal complaints would be filed
against all those involved in this scheme, Your Honor.
THE CHAIRMAN. Well, it seems/cbg

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THE CHAIRMAN.

...Well, it seems your investigation still has

to--you have to still dig deeper because the hole seems to be getting
deeper and deeper. As you have seen today, Mr. Kim Wong is saying
that the 80 million was never delivered. In fact, he is saying that there
was no Mr. Weikang Xu at Solaire whereas Philrem is saying they did
deliver the 80 million to Mr. Weikang Xu.
So, we expect more action on your part in the next few weeks or
days.
Is Mr. Agarrado here?
Mr. Agarrado--can we ...the page?--I just like to ask--Ito iyong
kotse na--picture na sinubmit (submit) ni Mr. Kim Wong?
Can you show it to him?
Since you are a member of the branch, does that appear to be--I
know you wouldnt say it to the exact picture but I would like to say,
does that appear to be the car of Ms. Maia Deguito?
MR. AGARRADO. Your Honor, ito po iyon. This is her car and
the car Honda Jazz DR 2685.
THE CHAIRMAN.

Okay.

May tanong ako, tingnan mo iyong

plaka. Bakit parang Chinese iyong sulat doon sa plaka?

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MR. AGARRADO. Maalala ko po nagpagawa daw siya ng--may


binanggit po siya one time sa amin--kasi sabi namin, Maam, bat ang
ganda ng plaka nyo, kakaiba yata, may Japanese character, parang
ganoon.
THE CHAIRMAN. Oo nga, iba, may mga characters. Sabi ko,
hindi ba huhulihin ka ng MMDA kung may mga ganyan?
MR. AGARRADO.

Actually this is her conduction number ng

kotse niya, DR 2685.


THE CHAIRMAN.

Ah, okay.

So, you are saying it with

certainty. I can see your body language. Please make it verbal.


MR. AGARRADO. Yes, sir.
THE CHAIRMAN. So, you are certain that is her car?
MR. AGARRADO. Very certain, Your Honor.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay.
Can I have it back, please?
The other last question is, Mr. Kim, this was taken February 5,
itong picture na ito?
MR. WONG. Opo. Hindi, galing po sa Solaire po iyan.
THE CHAIRMAN. Galing sa Solaire.
MR. WONG. Iyong papasok po ng valet po.

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THE CHAIRMAN. Oo nga.


MR. WONG. Opo. May date po diyan, sir.
THE CHAIRMAN. Yes, nakalagay nga February 5.
MR. WONG. Opo.
THE CHAIRMAN. Hindi, ang tanong ko lang sa Solaire at kay
Mr. Kim Wong, kung sino ang makasagot, ano, kasi sabi mo, Mr. Tan,
14 days burado na. Okay. So, iyong alleged dinner ni Maia Deguito,
ni Concon Bautista at ni Kim Wong sinasabi ninyo na-erase na? Okay,
fine. Pero bakit naman mayroong February 5 na CCTV? I just want an
explanation.
MR. S. TAN. Yes, Your Honor. I confirm that after 14 days the
system records over old, you know, footages. I am surprised myself,
Your Honor, this is the first time Im seeing this. We make sure we
investigate our...
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. That seems to be a fair answer. You
yourself you are surprised.
MR. S. TAN. Yes, Your Honor.
THE CHAIRMAN.

Mr. Kim, papaano po ito?

Sabi nila by 14

days na-erase na, mayroon po kayong picture.

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MR. WONG. Nakiusap lang ako sa mga kakilala ko Solaire po na


baka mayroong footage. Iba kasi po iyan. Sa parking po iyan nakuha,
hindi po sa casino.
THE CHAIRMAN. Ah, I see.
MR. WONG. Sa parking po iyan, sa papasok ng parking lot po.
THE CHAIRMAN. Sa parking ito, oo.
Mr. Tan, iyong sinasabi mong 14 days ay sa gambling area iyan?
MR. S. TAN. I did not ask whether it should be limited only-THE CHAIRMAN.

That is why... kasi iyong restaurant hindi

naman gambling area, eating area iyon. Baka naman iba iyong--hindi
14 days.
MR. S. TAN. Understood, Your Honor-THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. Baka you can produce something next
hearing.
MR. S. TAN. I will report in the next hearing, Your Honor.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. Thank you.
Senator Bam Aquino.
SEN. AQUINO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Maraming salamat
po.

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Iyong mga tanong ko po is really regarding how to get back the


money to Bangladesh.

Palagay ko hindi natin pinag-uusapan na

mayroon tayong perang ninakaw sa Bangladesh at kung paano ito


maibabalik.
So, let me begin with the seemingly contradictory stories of Mr.
Wong and Mr. Concon and Ms. Salud.
Magkano po iyong naibigay sa inyo na cash ng Philrem, Mr.
Wong?
MR. WONG. Total P400 million, US$5 million.
SEN. AQUINO. Okay.
And Mr. Bautista, you had said previously its P600 million and
$18 million, is that correct?
MS. BAUTISTA. Yes, Your Honor.
SEN. AQUINO. So, may balanse kayo na P200 million and $13
million, roughly about $18 million, ano, roughly, which is really iyong
balanse natin.
Senator Recto asked you before, kanino ninyo binigay iyong
P600 million and $18 million? Kanino po ninyo binigay?
MS. BAUTISTA. Ang instruction po kay Mr. Weikang Xu.
SEN. AQUINO. At binigay ninyo ito kay Mr. Weikang Xu?

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Ang hirap naman sagutin ng tanong.


MS. BAUTISTA. Yes, Your Honor.
SEN. AQUINO. And all of that time kasama ba si Mr. Kim Wong
noong binigay ninyo kay Mr. Weikang Xu?
Was he present when you gave the P600 million and $18 million?
MS. BAUTISTA. Opo, Your Honor.
SEN. AQUINO. Then why didnt you mention Mr. Kim Wongs
name in the last hearing when Senator Recto asked you pointblank
kanino ninyo binigay iyong pera?
MS. BAUTISTA. Binigay po namin iyong pera kay Mr. Weikang
Xu.

Siya po iyong beneficiary ng transaction, hindi po si Mr. Kim

Wong.
SEN. AQUINO. But Mr. Kim Wong was present?
MS. BAUTISTA. Opo, madami po sila.
SEN. AQUINO. Sino pa iyong mga kilala mo doon na kasama ni
Mr. Weikang Xu?
MS. BAUTISTA. Hindi ko na ho kilala, mga Chinese po sila.
SEN. AQUINO. Si Mr. Wong kilala mo?
MS. BAUTISTA. Opo.

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SEN. AQUINO. So, you conveniently forgot to mention that Mr.


Wong was present in the turnover of P600 million and $18 million?
MS. BAUTISTA. Hindi naman po. Kasi po iyong beneficiary po
ang pinag-uusapan ho natin diyan.
SEN. AQUINO.

Nabasa mo naman by the time of the second

hearing Mr. Wongs name was quite popular already, umiikot na and I
think that is why he is here, ano, para mapag-usapan niya mismo
iyong kanyang narrative.

So, alam natin iyon.

Paulit-ulit iyong

pangalan niyang Kim Wong and yet you still did not mention it during
the last hearing, tama po?
MS. BAUTISTA. Kasi po ang pinag-uusapan lang ho namin sa
remittance iyong beneficiary lang po.
SEN. AQUINO. So, you did not feel it was important to mention
that Mr. Kim Wong was present in the last hearing?
MS. BAUTISTA. Madami din pa ho kasing ibang mga Chinese
na kasama noong...
SEN. AQUINO. But, obviously, Mr. Kim Wong is central to this
conversation. Hindi nyo siya minention (mention) talaga?
MS. BAUTISTA. Your Honor, hindi ho namin alam--

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SEN. AQUINO.

Was it purposely na hindi mo siya minention

(mention) or an honest mistake na hindi mo siya na-mention?


MS. BAUTISTA. Sorry.
investigation.

Your Honor, wala naman ho kami sa

So, we were just instructed to deliver sa beneficiary.

Iyon lang po iyong trabaho namin.


SEN. AQUINO.

Okay.

Sige, let me leave this point.

But

Senator Recto asked you pointblank kanino nyo binigay and you said,
Weikang Xu, which is right.
MS. BAUTISTA. Yes, Weikang Xu.
SEN. AQUINO.

And then you refused to provide other

information which is that Mr. Kim Wong was present.


MS. BAUTISTA. Your Honor, it was not asked before if Mr. Kim
Wong was present.
SEN. AQUINO. Okay. So, was Mr. Kim Wong present in all of
the deliveries of cash?
MS. BAUTISTA. Yes, Your Honor.
SEN. AQUINO. Was one of these done in your house?
MS. BAUTISTA. Yes, Your Honor.
SEN. AQUINO.

When Mr. Kim Wong went to your house,

kasama ba niya si Mr. Weikang Xu?

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MS. BAUTISTA. Yes, Your Honor.


SEN. AQUINO. At may kasama pa siyang ibang mga players?
MS. BAUTISTA. Madaming tao, Your Honor.
SEN. AQUINO. Five, 10 people?
MS. BAUTISTA. No, siguro mga five to six people.
SEN. AQUINO. At hindi mo alam iyong pangalan nila but they
seemed like they are of Chinese descent?
MS. BAUTISTA. Chinese, opo.
SEN. AQUINO. Okay.
Mr. Kim Wong, sa mga panahon na pumunta kayo sa bahay ni
Mr. and Mrs. Bautista, kasama nyo si Mr. Weikang Xu?
MR. WONG. Hindi po.
SEN. AQUINO. Sino ang kasama mo?
MR. WONG. Ako lang po mag-isa.
SEN. AQUINO. So right now ang sinasabi mo nagsisinungaling
sila Mr. and Mrs. Bautista?
MR. WONG. Hindi ko po masabi. Tanungin nyo po.
SEN. AQUINO. Kasi ang sabi nila marami daw kayo. Kasama
mo si Mr. Weikang Xu, may kasama kayong five players of Chinese
descent?

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MR. WONG. Ako lang pong mag-isa.


SEN. AQUINO. All the times that you have gone to the houses
of the Bautistas since February--pumupunta ka ba before February sa
bahay po nila--?
MR. WONG. Never po.
SEN. AQUINO. Never. Okay.
Noong mga panahong pumunta ka sa bahay nila, for the record,
under oath, sinasabi mo mag-isa ka lang?
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. AQUINO. Wala kang ibang kasama?
MR. WONG. Wala po.
SEN. AQUINO. Mayroon ka bang kasama sa kotse?
MR. WONG. Marami po.
SEN. AQUINO. Pero hindi sila bumaba?
MR. WONG. Bumaba pero sa kalye po, hindi pumasok.
SEN. AQUINO. Sinu-sino iyong mga iyon?
MR. WONG. Driver ko po at saka tao ko po.
SEN. AQUINO. Under oath, you will say na mag-isa ka lang?
MR. WONG. Opo, pumasok po.../hsg

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MR. WONG.

Opo, pumasok po. Ako lang po.

SEN. AQUINO.

Kayo naman, Mr. Bautista, kung tanungin po

namin iyong mga tao sa bahay ninyo, will they say that there was Mr.
Kim Wong, Mr. Weikang Xu and five other players?
MS. BAUTISTA.
SEN. AQUINO.

Your Honor, nasa labas lang po sila.


Sino iyong pumasok sa loob ng bahay ninyo

to get the cash?


MS. BAUTISTA.

Inilabas po namin iyong pera from the house.

SEN. AQUINO.

So hindi nakapasok si Mr. Kim Wong sa bahay

ninyo. Sa labas lang po siya?


MS. BAUTISTA.

Sa may main door yata, more or less.

SEN. AQUINO.

Okay. Sila ni Weikang Xu.

MS. BAUTISTA.

Yes, Your Honor.

SEN. AQUINO.
MS. BAUTISTA.
SEN. AQUINO.

At may lima silang kasama?


Yes, Your Honor.
Nakita po ito ng ibang tao sa bahay ninyo? Or

baka mga kapitbahay ninyo, nakita ba sila?


MS. BAUTISTA.

Hindi ko po alam, Your Honor.

SEN. AQUINO.

Okay. So maybe, maybe not. We dont know.

Mr. Wong, ang kwento po ni Mr. and Mrs. Bautista, hanggang


pinto lang daw po kayo kasama ni Mr. Weikang Xu at kasama ng lima

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pang mga around five Chinesepeople of Chinese descent. Hindi po


totoo iyon?
MR. WONG.

Hindi po totoo.

SEN. AQUINO.
MR. WONG.

Nakapasok ka ba sa bahay nila?

Opo.

SEN. AQUINO.

Iyon nga iyong tanong ni Senator Guingona

kanina, pwede mong sabihin on the record daw kung anong nakita mo
sa loob ng bahay nila? May painting ka bang nakita? May picture?
Pagpasok ba living room, may TV?
MR. WONG. Maraming painting.
SEN. AQUINO.
MR. WONG.

Maraming painting. May isa kang naalala?


Mayroon po.

SEN. AQUINO.
MR. WONG.

Ano?
Pag tiningnan ninyo po iyong painting maliit po,

parang napakalalim ho iyong daan.


SEN. AQUINO.
MR. WONG.

Okay.
Special painting ho iyon. Maliit lang po, pag

tiningnan mo para ang lalim, hanggang doon.


SEN. AQUINO.
MR. WONG.

Hindi mo makalimutan iyan?

Hindi ko ho malimutan.

SEN. AQUINO.

May ganyan ba kayong painting sa bahay?

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MR. BAUTISTA.

Yes, we have that painting. And, sir, he has

been to the house before and


SEN. AQUINO.

Could you speak louder, Mr. Bautista?

MR. BAUTISTA. He has been to the house before and that


painting was, type na type talaga niya. And he was asking me where I
got it.
SEN. AQUINO. Okay. So napakaganda niyang painting na iyan.
Okay.

When

was

he

at

your

house,

previous

to

these

transactions? 2014, 2013


MR. BAUTISTA.

Last year.

SEN. AQUINO.

Last year. Why was he at your house?

Kayo po ba ay magkaibigan, mayroon ba kayong business


dealings?
MR. BAUTISTA.
SEN. AQUINO.

He was with a friend who went to the house.


Hindi po ba si Weikang Xu iyong friend din

niya? Sino po ang kaibigan niya?


MR. BAUTISTA.

His name was mentioned earlier but Id rather

not talk about it anymore. A lot of people have been mentioned


already, a lot of people who are not related to this.
SEN. AQUINO.

Do you confirm, Mr. Wong, na nakapunta ka

na sa bahay po nila bago itong mga transaction na ito?

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MR. WONG.

Totoo po. Nalimutan ko po. One time po.

SEN. AQUINO.
MR. WONG.

Okay.

Totoo po iyon, totoo. Sorry po.

SEN. AQUINO.

So binabago mo na ngayon iyong sinabi mo

kanina. Nakapunta ka nga sa bahay nila?


MR. WONG.

Opo. One time lang po. Tapos sumunod na ito,

one, two, three. Tatlong beses po.


SEN. AQUINO.

Okay.

So as far as you are concerned, Mr. Wong, mayroong around 17


to 18 million dollars na nawawala.
MR. WONG.

Nawawala po.

SEN. AQUINO.

According to our resource speakers from

Philrem, na-encash po ito at naibigay sa inyo.


Is that right, Mr. Bautista and Mrs. Bautista? Iyan po ang
testimony po ninyo under oath
MS. BAUTISTA.
SEN. AQUINO.

Yes, Your Honor.


na kay Weikang Xu ito at na kay Kim Wong.

Iyan ang sinasabi po ninyo.


MR. BAUTISTA.
SEN. AQUINO.

Yes, Your Honor.


So obviously, Ms. Abad, this is really ripe for

your further investigation.

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Let me ask about the money in the casinos. Mayroon pong 61


million dollars na pumasok po sa casino. Pag sinabi po nating pumasok
po ito, pumasok ito sa treasury ng mga casino. Is that right Atty. Tan,
at least for Solaire?
MR. S. TAN.

Your Honor, with respect to Solaire, we received

P1.365 billion.
SEN. AQUINO.
MR. S. TAN.

Okay. Kasi na-convert na into pesos1.365.

That is correct, Your Honor.

SEN. AQUINO.

That is right.

Pag sinabing nakapasok, what does that mean?


MR. S. TAN.

The amount was transferred from Philrems BDO

account to Solaires BDO account, Your Honor.


SEN. AQUINO.

Its in Solaires BDO account. Anong nangyari

sa perang iyon?
MR. S. TAN.

The money was then used as front money by

Ding Zhize. And then, it was used to purchase equivalent amount of


non-negotiable chips, Your Honor.
SEN. AQUINO.

And then? So are the chips at large? Nilaro ba

niya iyong chips? What happened to this?


MR. S. TAN.

Ill give the summary, Your Honor.

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SEN. AQUINO.

Atty. Nepomuceno, I will be asking about

Midas next time.


MR. S. TAN.

Well, to answer the question of where the 1.365

billion that was received from Philrem by Solaires BDO account, we


summarized it as follows: No. 1, the entire P1.365 billion was used to
purchase 1.365 million worth of premium non-negotiable chips in
Solaire and those non-negotiable chips were used and transferred as
follows: 903,730,000 worth was transferred to junket operator A in
Solaire, Your Honor, and was exchanged for equivalent of 903.73
million worth of

junket operator cage non-negotiable chips on

instruction of Mr. Ding Zhize.


Then, 100 million worth
SEN. AQUINO.

Just a second, Atty. Tan.

So pumasok sa account ninyo, naging chips ng Solaire and then


naging chips ng junket operator. Magkaiba ba iyong chips na iyon?
MR. S. TAN.

They are different, Your Honor.

SEN. AQUINO.

Sorry.

Could you use the other mike, please, because nawawala-wala


ka sa mike.
Sige, Attorney, please explain.

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MR. S. TAN.

Your Honor, I think junket operator A is a fixed

room junket operator, so they have their own rooms and when a
junket player plays with them, they issue their separate, distinct nonnegotiable chips, Your Honor.
SEN. AQUINO.

All right. So ito ba iyong iyong currently in

junket operator playing(?) chips?


MR. S. TAN.

Well, we do not know that, Your Honor, because

the junket operator has its own cage. That is the pocket cashier. And
so we have no visibility on the transaction of a junket operators games
between the junket operator and the player, your Honor.
SEN. AQUINO. So hindi natin alam kung na-encash ba ito, nasa
account ng junket operator. We dont know. Your Solaire does not
know.
MR. S. TAN.

That is correct, Your Honor. But in our record,

that amount was transferred to them.


SEN. AQUINO.

So kumbaga naipasa na sa kanila, hindi ninyo

na alam, in effect.
MR. S. TAN.

Yes, Your Honor.

SEN. AQUINO.

Okay. Junket operator A is a Filipino

registered junket operator or is it a foreign entity?

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MR. S. TAN.

It is a foreign entity, Your Honor. One of the

biggest junket operators in the world operating in Macau and other


gaming centers, Your Honor.
SEN. AQUINO.

Im gonna ask Atty. Abad next.

Have you written junket operator A and told them P900 million
worth of Bangladeshis money is with you. Nasabi ninyo po iyon?
MR. S. TAN.

We did, Your Honor.

SEN. AQUINO.
MR. S. TAN.

And whats their response?


Yes, Your Honor. They said they have been paid

out and they said thatWe told them that you will be called to a
hearing and youll be asked to explain. And they said, they will explain
when called, Your Honor.
SEN. AQUINO.

Mr. Chairman, if we could invite those junket

operators.
When they said they were paid out, does that mean they
encashed it already? Sabi mo, they were paid out.
MR. S. TAN.

That is what they said.

SEN. AQUINO.
MR. S. TAN.

What does that term mean, paid out?

That its no longer with them, Your Honor.

SEN. AQUINO.

So sinasabi po nila, nagalaw na rin nila iyong

perang iyon.

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MR. S. TAN.

That is how I understand it, Your Honoryes.

SEN. AQUINO.

Atty. Abad, do we have any hold on these

foreign corporations that maybe in possession of stolen money from


another country? Mayroon ba sa batas natin na pwedeng matigil iyong
kanilang account, ma-freeze iyong kanilang mga operations dahil sa
ating batas? Or wala tayong habol sa kanila?
MS. ABAD.

Well, Your Honor, if we can identify that money

went to this junket operators then the [Inaudible due to audio


malfunction] file the petition to freeze the account of Bloomberry.
Because based on our investigation, we were able to identify only up to
Bloomberry. So after Bloomberry, we dont know where the money
went.
SEN. AQUINO.

Well, they are telling us now/mjp

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SEN. AQUINO. telling us now it went to junket already. Did


they withhold that information previously or was that alwayswere
you up-front to that information, Atty. Tan?
MS. ABAD. Were just giving it for the first time, Your Honor.
MR. S. TAN.

Im sorry.

It is not correct, Your Honor.

week, March 22, we submitted a response.

Last

AMLC wrote us and say

Where is Weikang Xu? And you gave us information of him and the
players under him.

And we responded, Your Honor, in the manner

that we responded to Pagcor and we gave the same details, Your


Honor, in correcting the mistakes and giving them the details of all the
transactions that we submitted to this committee. That was March 22.
SEN. AQUINO. Atty. Abad, can you kindly check your records if
this information was given?
MS. ABAD. We filed the position for freeze order against those
numerous accounts. I think, if Im not mistaken, we filed it on March
11, Your Honor.
SEN. AQUINO. But Attorney, if you had information on March
22 that there was another account that this money went to, then you
could have also filed a freeze order on that account because then that
would compel these junket operators to at least show up and
cooperate with your investigation.

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MS. ABAD.

Well, that is what we did, Your Honor.

After we

filed the petition for freeze against numerous accounts, we wrote


Bloomberry to get information on all those junket operators. And yes,
we received a reply from Blooomberry, Your Honor. And we are in the
process of dissecting these reports from Bloomberry, Your Honor.
SEN. AQUINO.

Okay.

Atty. Abad, please act on this

information because if the money is notkailangan natin habulin iyong


pera kasi $81 million ito na involved ang mga Filipinos, pagnanakaw sa
Bangladesh. And clearly, I am not saying who exactly is involved but
were sure Filipinos are involved.

At nakakahiya talaga na iyong

perang iyon baka nasa sistema natin, kailangan natin talagang ibalik
iyan. So, please use that information of Atty. Tan. We dont want to
mention that name but it is already with the
MR. S. TAN.

AMLC.

Thats correct, Your Honor.

We dont want to

mention it in public because theyre operating on a regular course.


SEN. AQUINO. Okay. Id like to ask Midas.
Atty. Nepomuceno, you know my questions already.

Nuong

pumasok iyong pera sa inyo, ano ang nangyari sa pera?


MS. NEPOMUCENO. Your Honor, in the case of Midas Casino,
we have appointed Eastern Hawaii as our sub-agent. So, the money, it

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does not go to the account of PIDI which is our company. It goes to


the account of Eastern Hawaii.
SEN. AQUINO. So, na kila Mr. Wong pa rin?
MS. NEPOMUCENO. Yes, Your Honor.
SEN. AQUINO.
tayong

600

saka

Mr. Wong, magkano po iyongSo, mayroon

18

na

in-encash

na

right

now

hindi

tayo

nagkakasundo kung ano ang nangyari. Mayroong tayong 1.3 billion in


Solaire na sabi po nila umabot na sa foreign junket operator. Iyong
pera po na pumasok sa Midas nasa inyo pa po ba?
MR. WONG. Iyong 401B nasa Eastern Hawaii Leisure Company
Casino, nandoon po at nilaro na 550, may natitira ho. Iyong 450 po
binayaran sa aking utang, ganoon po. Well, counted po iyon. Anytime
puwedeng i-submit ko sa inyo.
SEN. AQUINO. Sorry ha. So, iyong P550 million, nilaro?
MR. WONG. Opo, nilaro po.
SEN. AQUINO. Meaning ginawang chips?
MR. WONG. Opo. Ginawang chips. Nilalaro po.
SEN. AQUINO. Okay. Nilalaro. Meaning, still being used?
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. AQUINO. Hindi pinigil iyong paggamit ng pera?
MR. WONG. No, pinigil po noong March 2. March 2, pinigil po.

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SEN. AQUINO.

So, magkanointact pa po?

Magkano pa po

iyong intact?
MR. WONG. Iyong natira po doon sa laro, more or less, nasa 40
million pa.
SEN. AQUINO. Dollars?
MR. WONG. No, pesos po.
SEN. AQUINO. Fourteen?
MR. WONG. Four-zero (40).
SEN. AQUINO. Out of 550 million of 900 million.
MR. WONG. Iyong P450 million binayaran sa utang ko po.
SEN. AQUINO. Okay.
MR. WONG. Iyong 550 po may natira pa ho, P40 million plus.
SEN. AQUINO. So, youre saying may P40 million pang natitira.
Ano ang nangyari doon sa P510 million, nilaro?
MR. WONG. Nilaro po, nilaro po.
SEN. AQUINO.

Pag nilalaro mo iyong chipshindi kasi ako

familiarpag nilalaro mo iyong chips, kailangan mong i-encash iyon,


di ba para makuha mo iyon bilang cash or nakuha nila bilang chips?
MR. WONG.

Pagka pinasok, kukuha ho ng dead chips po.

Iyong dead chips po tapos nilaro, pag nanalo po sila, puwede ho silang
kuning cash.

Pero kung kunwari one million kinuha mo, naglaro ka

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ngayon, naging 1.5, iyong 500 puwede mong kunin ng cash. So, iyong
one million ipapalit ho.
SEN. AQUINO. So, intact pa ba iyong chips worth 550 million?
MR. WONG. Hindi na po. Natalo po sila, eh. Mga sa 40 million
something po.
SEN. AQUINO. Natalo sa Midas?
MR. WONG. Opo. Puwede po, nasa record po ng Pagcor, kung
ire-reconsume, puwede naman po i-submit para makita po.
SEN. AQUINO. Meaning puwede pang ibalik iyong pera?
MR. WONG. Iyong 40 million plus po.
SEN. AQUINO. Hindi, iyong 510. Actually, sa totoo lang, alam
ko may utang siya sa iyo pero kahit iyon galing iyon sa nakaw na pera.
MR. WONG.

Pero iyong 450 po inaamin ko po binayaran ko

pera, iyong 450 million po.


SEN. AQUINO. Oo. But if Im not mistaken, if that is part of an
illegal transaction, puwede iyan makuha pa ng iba.
Atty. Abad, is that right?
MS. ABAD. Thats correct, Your Honor.
SEN. AQUINO. Okay. So, iyong 450 inaamin mo nasa iyo pa?
MR. WONG. Opo.

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SEN. AQUINO.

Okay.

Iyong 550 nilaro sa Midas, which is

under Pagcor, puwede pa bang ibalik iyon? I dont know the answer,
Mr. Manalastas.
MR. MANALASTAS.

Considered as done transaction na kasi

iyon. And I think well be tracing a lot of players na natalo.


SEN. AQUINO. So, tama naman ang sinasabi ni Mr. Wong, ano,
550 ang nilaro, 510 natalo sa casino sa Midas which is run by Pagcor,
and youre saying we cannot return that money.

Thats with the

house, right? Nasa Pagcor na iyan, di ba?


MR. MANALASTAS. Nasa junket operator na po.
SEN. AQUINO. Which is Mr. Kim Wong?
MR. MANALASTAS. Yes.
SEN. AQUINO. So, nasa kanya iyong 510 million.
MR. MANALASTAS.

Well, considered as a done deal na kasi

iyon. It has been lost.


SEN. AQUINO. Sorry ha. Iyong perang iyan may 510 million
nilaro, natalo. Nasa inyo po ba o nasa Midas o nasa Pagcor? Kanino
po iyonWhere is that cash?
MR. WONG. Ako na po magpaliwanag.
SEN. AQUINO. Opo. Sige go ahead.

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MR. WONG.
Midas po.

Iyong junket po, kami po iyong nago-offer sa

So, iyong P550 million po, tsinek-in (check-in) po.

So,

dinala ng mga playes po paikot-ikot po. Pag nanalo po sila, kunyari,


sinasabi ko po sa inyo kanina, pag one million nanalo 500, kinukuha
nila. Pag natalo, nababawasan ang chips nila. So, may record po iyan
kaya nga inaano ko po sa inyosina-suggest ko po sa inyo, ipakukuha
natin sa Pagcor, naka-manifest naman kung sino para i-submit ko sa
committee nyo po.
SEN. AQUINO.

Okay, we can do that definitely, no.

Ang

tanong ko, nasaan iyong pera, nasa Eastern Hawaii, nasa Pagcor, nasa
Midas?
MR. WONG. Nasa Eastern Hawaii po.
SEN. AQUINO. Eastern Hawaii.
MR. WONG. Iyong sinasabi nyong pera 550 nasa Eastern
Hawaii.
SEN. AQUINO. But youre considering that a done transaction
kasi nilaro na?
MR. WONG. Iyon ang ano ko.
SEN. AQUINO. Okay. May tanong ako, Atty. Abad. Alam ko
kung

ma-establish

na

iyong

perang

gamit

pinanggalingan, balik-balik iyong pera, di ba?

mo

illegal

ang

I mean, for stolen

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goods, alam ko parang ganoon, if Im not mistaken.

In this case,

mayroon pang one billion po diyan na galing po sa illegal na


transaction, puwede pa bang mahabol iyong perang iyan o hindi na
siya mahahabol?
MS. ABAD.

That should be recovered, Your Honor.

However,

when we filed the petition to freeze the account of Eastern Hawaii


where supposedly P1 billion was transferred, at the time when the
freeze order was issued, the account
SEN. AQUINO. Na-zero na?
MS. ABAD. Zero na. Nothing was frozen as far as the account
of Eastern Hawaii is concerned.
SEN. AQUINO. So, Mr. Wong, nalipat na iyong pera sa ibang
account?
MR. WONG. Hindi po. Pinasok ko po sa Eastern Hawaii tapos
iyong 200 million binayaran ko pa sa Solaire, iyong 200 million po
binayaran ko po sa utang ko.
SEN. AQUINO. Okay. At iyong 550?
MR. WONG.

Dinala ko po iyon sa Solaire dito po sa loob ng

Manilas World. Puwede nyo naman pong makuha iyong record kung
sinong player.
SEN. AQUINO. Atty. Abad, mayroon ba tayong legal recourse?

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This is my last question, Mr. Chairman.


Alam natin na this came from stolen money.

Hacking or kung

ano man ang nangyari, hindi iyan pera nung limang tao na pinasok
iyong pera, hindi iyan pera ni William Go, hindi rin iyan pera ng
Philrem, hindi iyan pera ng RCBC. That came from Bangladesh. Aside
from the cash, nati-trace naman natin kung saan napunta iyong pera.
May legal recourse ba tayo na. . . (nam)

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SEN. AQUINO.

...may legal recourse ba tayo na kuhanin ulit

iyong pera para maibalik natin sa Bangladesh?


MS. ABAD. If we can identify, Your Honor, that the money is
still there, then we can recover that.

However, if the money is no

longer there or no longer available


SEN. AQUINO. No, it is there. Mr. Wong is saying nandiyan pa,
hindi ba, sir? Mate-trace natin.
MS. ABAD.

But he said that as far as the 550 million

is

concerned, it has been checked in. I dont know what check in means.
SEN. AQUINO. Anyway, are our laws strong enough to recover
that money? Iyon na iyong last question ko. Kaya ba ng mga batas
natin na ma-recover iyong perang iyan or may kakulangan iyong batas
natin. Hindi na natin mare-recover kung nakapasok na sa mga casino,
nakapasok na sa ibang transaction, hindi na mare-recover o marerecover, kaya ba o hindi?
MS. ABAD. There are remedies provided under the law.
SEN. AQUINO. And that is one of the remedies, if I am not
mistaken.
MS. ABAD.

One of the remedies provided under the law is

forfeiture of any assets identified to be or related to any unlawful


activity or... So under the AMLC, the AMLC has the power to institute

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petition for civil forfeiture against all these properties or assets that are
being related to unlawful offense.
SEN. AQUINO. Thank you, Atty. Abad.
And of course, we are doing the hearings so people will know
what really happened or people can judge for themselves kung ano
talaga ang nangyari.

But at the end of the day, iyong proseso po

ninyo will determine whether maibabalik natin a part, whole, kaunti o


karamihan noong pera na nanakaw and we hope that you can really go
through that process properly. And if you need the help of the Senate
to change the laws or make things stronger, nandito naman ho kami
na tutulong sa inyo.
Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
THE CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator Bam.
Just an administrative before we go to Senator Koko na matagal
nang nag-aantay, alam ko. Pero, Senator Bam, you made a request, I
just want to clarify.

You want to call to the hearing the junket

operators?
SEN. AQUINO.

The representatives of the junket operator in

the Philippines...
THE CHAIRMAN. Of which, Solaire and Midas?
SEN. AQUINO. No, just Solaire.

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THE CHAIRMAN. Solaire. How many junket operators do you


have?
SEN. AQUINO. Mr. Tan, kindly tell the Chairman.
MR. S. TAN.

I suppose, Your Honor, you are referring to the

junket operators identified in our report, there are two, Your Honor.
SEN. AQUINO.

I would like to hear it from them where the

money went because I think whats important is we recover the


money.
THE CHAIRMAN. Yes. When this hearing started, I was under
the impression that the 1.36 was still frozen. So I said maybe theres
1.36 billion that we can still return to Bangladesh. But now I find out
that it is being converted into chips and has been already gambled.
Mr. Tan, you can produce the two junket operators?
MR. S. TAN. We will, Your Honor.
THE CHAIRMAN. You will.
MR. S. TAN. We will ask them to come here, Your Honor, next
hearing.
THE CHAIRMAN. No. You tell me now because if it is needed,
we can subpoena them.

So you tell me whether you can or you

cannot.
MR. S. TAN. Maybe they should be subpoenaed, Your Honor.

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THE CHAIRMAN.

You cannot require them? They are regular

customers of yours?
MR. S. TAN. Yes, sir. They operate inside our casino.
THE CHAIRMAN. So if you say, If you dont go to the Senate,
then we dont do business with you. Then I suppose they will come.
In other words, my point is dont you have a hold over them?
MR. S. TAN.

We have a contract, Your Honor.

Part of the

contract says they should follow Philippine laws so-THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. Could you supply the names and their
addresses...
MR. S. TAN. Yes, Your Honor.
THE CHAIRMAN.

...to the Comsec right after this hearing so

we can issue the subpoena.


MR. S. TAN. Yes, sir.
THE CHAIRMAN. Senator Aquino, how about the one in Midas?
No. No, thats not Kim Wong. Okay, that is the-Okay. I think that is very, very important for the public to know
that the last remedy is a civil case--Atty. Abad, a civil case, not a
criminal case for forfeiture of assets. Am I correct?
MS. ABAD. Yes, Your Honor, its a civil forfeiture case.
THE CHAIRMAN. Civil forfeiture. Andyes, Senator Aquino.

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SEN. AQUINO.

Very quickly.

Are there efforts to invite Mr.

Weikang Xu, Mr. Wong?


THE CHAIRMAN.

Yes. Ms. Abad, I understand you talked to

the Immigration authorities on the matter of Mr. Weikang Xu. What


was the latest by the Immigration?
MS. ABAD. Based on our inquiry in the Bureau of Immigration,
their records would show that from the time Mr. Weikang Xu arrived in
Manila sometime in 2015, I think April 2015, there is no record of
departure.

However, we received information that Mr. Weikang Xu

probably has left the country via a private plane, Your Honor.
THE CHAIRMAN.

I suppose if it is a private plane, you still

have to go through immigration. What did the Immigration say?


MS. ABAD.

They dont have a record of his departure, Your

Honor.
THE CHAIRMAN. They dont have a record of his departure?
MS. ABAD. The BI, Your Honor.
SEN. AQUINO. Mr. Chairman.
THE CHAIRMAN. Yes, Senator Aquino.
SEN. AQUINO. Mr. Weikang Xu is a known person to Mr. Wong
and to Midas.
THE CHAIRMAN. Yes, I was getting to that.

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SEN. AQUINO.

You have his telephone number, his address.

Na-text ninyo po ba si Mr. Weikang Xu, Mr. Wong?

Ano na iyong

nangyayari na ito.
MR. WONG. Hindi ko pa nakakausap.
SEN. AQUINO. You didnt try to?
MR. WONG.

Kasi ano, player po siya ni Gao, pero pwede ko

pong ipa-check po. Kasi nagtatago pa ho ako.


SEN. AQUINO. Can you kindly locate Mr. Weikang Xu and the
secretariat, I am sure, can subpoena him also if he is still here in the
Philippines, Mr. Wong, if you can help us.
MR. WONG. Opo. Kung wala ho siya dito papupuntahin ko po.
SEN. AQUINO. Thank you.
THE CHAIRMAN. The Comsec is hereby ordered to issue a
subpoena for Mr. Weikang Xu on the presumption that we have enough
information.
And Ms. Abad, it is incumbent upon youcan you get a
confirmation,

second

confirmation

again

from

the

Immigration

authorities as to whether they know the whereabouts of Mr. Weikang


Xu.
MS. ABAD. We will, Your Honor.

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THE CHAIRMAN.

How about Midas, can you tell us anything?

Are you representing Midas?


MS. NEPOMUCENO. Yes, Your Honor.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay.
MS. NEPOMUCENO.

We have prepared a statement, Your

Honor-THE CHAIRMAN.

No, no, no.

I am not talking about a

statement, I am talking about Mr. Weikang Xu. Do you have


MS. NEPOMUCENO. No, Your Honor, because the presence of
Mr. Weikang Xu .... actually to be cleared by Eastern Hawaii. And once
he is pre-cleared and established that he in fact played, they actually
forward to the Pagcor branch manager assigned in Midas a photo copy
of his passport.

So as we have mentioned earlier,

I believe that

Pagcor will produce the records, updates on Mr. Weikang Xu if he had


played in Midas before.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. But I am not too interested right now.
I want a definitive answer. Does anybody know whether Mr. Weikang
Xu--you are operating the casino, so is Mr. Weikang Xu playing in your
casinos right now?
MS. NEPOMUCENO.

Sir, Mr. Chairman, I believe that we

actually have signed an agreement,

a sub-agency agreement with

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Eastern Hawaii. And in our case, Eastern Hawaii who actually operates
the-THE CHAIRMAN. So in other words you wouldnt know?
MS. NEPOMUCENO. We wouldnt know exactly-THE CHAIRMAN. You operate a casino but you dont know who
goes in and out?
MS. NEPOMUCENO.

We have a record, Your Honor, that has

been submitted.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay then. Let us not dillydally on this point.
Anyway, Mr. Kim Wong, you said hahanapin ninyo po.
MR. WONG. Opo.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. Now we go to Senator Koko Pimentel.
SEN. PIMENTEL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
For Pagcor, Mr. Manalastas, you have heard the explanation of
Atty. Nepomuceno hiding under the sub-agency agreement.

Should

you continue such kind of an arrangement? It confuses the situation


and people can hide behind agreements.

Will you continue to allow

this?
MR. MANALASTAS.

Sir, I may,

we still derive income from

such operations. What we cannot provide directly the junket operators


can offer. So in a way, they still help in attracting the players from

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SEN. PIMENTEL. The casino in Midas Hotel is Pagcor operated?


MR. MANALASTAS. Yes, Your Honor.
SEN. PIMENTEL. So you put up.../smv

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SEN. PIMENTEL.

So, you put up that casino to compete with

your own flagship project, the Entertainment City? Whats the logic
putting up your own casino to compete with the casinos you have
incentivized to locate in Entertainment City?
MR. MANALASTAS.

Sir, they havewell, in the casino, we

have different types of market. Solaire has foreign market, bigger. And
we cater to the locals also.
SEN. PIMENTEL.

Locals lang ba iyong Solaire? Is that right,

Atty. Tan?
MR. S. TAN. Yes, Your Honor.
SEN. PIMENTEL.
review

the

logic

I dont see the point. Anyway, you better

behind

you

having

flagship

project

called

Entertainment City and then you are supposed to protect that project
to make the locators there earn money and then you want going to
compete with them by putting up your own casino just a couple of
kilometers away.
Anyway, for Atty. Nepomuceno, in one breath you mentioned
Eastern Hawaii and a certain Oriental. What are those two entities and
how are they related?

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MS. NEPOMUCENO. Your Honor, Oriental Casino is actually the


trade name of the junket room in Midas Casino and Eastern Hawaii is
the subagent.
SEN. PIMENTEL. So, Oriental Casino is the trade name of the
junket room.
MS. NEPOMUCENO. Yes, Your Honor.
SEN. PIMENTEL. So, that means the entity with which Pagcor
has a contract. Tama? Because Pagcor operates the main casino?
Tama po ba iyon? Is that correct?
MS. NEPOMUCENO.

Your Honor, Pagcor has a contract with

Prime Investment Korea Inc our own company, and we actually in turn
have a sub-agency agreement with Eastern Hawaii.
SEN. PIMENTEL.

Okay. Have you owned the trademark of

Oriental Casino?
MS. NEPOMUCENO.

It is owned by Eastern Hawaii, Your

Honor, I believe.
SEN. PIMENTEL. You dont know?
MS. NEPOMUCENO.

I believe, Your Honor, it is owned by

Eastern Hawaii. I know for a fact, that it is being used in Midas Hotel
and Casino.
SEN. PIMENTEL. You dont care? You dont care to find out?

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MS. NEPOMUCENO.

Actually, Your Honor, its owned by

Eastern Hawaii.
SEN. PIMENTEL. Okay. To Director Abad. Against whom have
we filed money laundering cases or complaints as of today?
MS. ABAD. As of today, Your Honor, we have filed two criminal
complaints: The first one is against Ms. Maia Deguito and the four
account holders. And the second one is against Mr. Kam Sin Wong
a.k.a. Kim Wong, and Mr. Weikang Xu, Your Honor.
SEN. PIMENTEL. Seven? At least against seven personalities.
Yeah.
MS. ABAD. Yes, Your Honor.
SEN. PIMENTEL. And what is the basis of your case against Mr.
Kim Wong? Is it because of the testimony of Maia Deguito that he was
the one who told her to open the four fictitious accounts or is it
because of the transfer of funds from Eastern Hawaii to his personal
account?
MS. ABAD.

Yes, that was based on the fact that he received

money from Eastern Hawaii. Because as far as our investigation is


concerned, part of the stolen funds from theYour Honor.
SEN. PIMENTEL. So, you stated in one of our earlier hearings
that there should be knowledge of the illegal source or the unlawful

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activity behind the money. So, that means that AMLC is convinced that
Mr. Kim Wong has knowledge of the illegal source or the unlawful
activity which generated the money transfer to his account. But he is
if we put the events on a timeline, hes actually on the ending part. So,
I am wondering why an actor like Philrem which if not in the middle
but at the beginning part of the timeline of events constituting money
laundering, how come you do not attribute knowledge to Philrem
because you did not even freeze Philrem accounts and you did not file
a case against Philrem?
MS. ABAD.

Actually, Your Honor, the AMLC files criminal

complaint as evidence would warrant. And based on our initial


investigation early on, weve already found out that of all those
persons against whom we filed criminal complaint, circumstances will
show that they knew that the money transacted came from the stolen
funds.
However, as far as the Philrem is concerned, when we looked at
the transactions, initially it would appear that these were regular
transactions. As a remittance company, we saw that there a lot of
transactions coming in and out of Philrems account. And so, we
wouldof course, we thought that this money that were remitted from
William So Go were also part of regular business, Your Honor.

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As I have said, we havent completed our investigation. Our


investigation is still ongoing and we are verifying certain facts, Your
Honor.
SEN. PIMENTEL.

Yeah, I read one news report which stated

that Philrem has 100,000 transactions. I do not know if thats a day or


a month but the average amount involved is $500. So, even if they
have many transactions, we look at the average amount, $500, these
particular transactions are not maybe part of thousands of transactions
but from the account they are not usual because the average amount
is $500.
MS. ABAD. These amounts may be unusual but I think if I am
not mistaken in the past, there were also relatively large transactions
in this account that happened with the account of Philrem, Your Honor.
SEN. PIMENTEL. So, why did the AMLC attribute knowledge on
the part of Kim Wong who is at the end of the timeline because thats
the destination account? PNB ba, PNB account iyong sa kanya?
MS. ABAD. Yes, Your Honor.
SEN. PIMENTEL.

So, why do we attribute knowledge on the

part of Kim Wong and then you do not attribute knowledge on the part
of Philrem which played a very crucial role in remitting the amounts?

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MS. ABAD. Because based on our investigation, Your Honor, it


would appear that Mr. Kim Wong is one of the ultimate beneficiaries of
this account. And considering of the circumstances that attended the
series of transfers involving this money, it would appear that he knew
from the start that the money is coming and that the money came
from some unlawful activity, Your Honor. But in contrast, as far as
Philrem is concerned, at first, it would appear that the money just
passed through it as a remittance company. But I am not saying at
this point, Your Honor, that Philrem is completely innocent of all these
things, Your Honor.
SEN. PIMENTEL. But my point is this, when you applied for a
freeze order for the account of Kim Wong, you still have not heard the
testimony that he was involved in the early part; according to Maia
Deguito he was the one who introduced the five account holders to
him. So, all he knew was that his PNB account was a destination of the
money. So, nasa ending na po siya. And yet you attributed knowledge
on his part. And then here comes one critical player in the narration
and you do not attribute knowledge. So, I am just wondering why the
different treatment.
I hope you get my point. Okay. But that was before. But now
that you have heard additional testimony and according to Mr. Kim

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Wong, there is an unaccounted $17 million which he alleges are still


with Philrem. So, dont you have any power or any weapon under your
disposal to at least believe the allegation of Mr. Kim Wong and try to
save the $17 million by applying for a freeze order?
MS. ABAD. The problem, Your Honor, is I think this missing $17
million have been withdrawn in cash and probably itsI dont know
SEN. PIMENTEL. Yeah, but did you even try?
MS. ABAD. We just tried this
SEN. PIMENTEL. Did you even try to--now that you have heard
this missing $70 million, will you even try to look for that from
Philrems accounts?
MS. ABAD.

Well, we will try, Your Honor. But let me further

explain, Your Honor. Because when we filed the petition for freeze
order against all those identified/rommel

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MS. ABAD. against all those identified accounts, as far as the


US$81 million is concerned and based on the initial evidence that we
have gathered, it would appear that everything has been disbursed by
Philrem. Some parts went to Bloomberry, some parts went to Eastern
Hawaii which eventually went to Mr. Kim Wong and some parts were
allegedly delivered in cash to that Mr. Weikang Xu, so the 81 million
has been accounted for as far as our initial investigation is concerned.
SEN. PIMENTEL.

Yes, if we are to believe Philrems testimony.

Yung first two, okay iyon, there must be documentary evidence.


Thats why when they werewhen Ms. Salud Bautista was testifying on
the cash deliveries, she was required to bring receipts which she
promised to bring.

Even the identity or the identification document of

that person who received, like the passport which she promised to
bring which she did not bring.

So medyo sablay na po iyon.

And

then here comes testimony from Mr. Kim Wong that theres a missing
17 million, so its word versus word, but if you can believe the word of
Philrem, can you not also believe the word of Kim Wong and take
precautionary measure to save that $17 million?
MS. ABAD.

Your Honor, all testimonies here will be taken into

consideration in our investigation.

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SEN. PIMENTEL.

There is also testimony from Mr. Kim Wong

that there are still left with the casinos, 40 million in Midas; 100 million
in Solaire.

What can we do about it?

If none, then can Pagcor do

something about it, and with your power to regulate and license
casinos?
AMLC first, what can you do?

Kasi we are trying to save as

much as we can. So if we can return at the soonest possible so that


the case of Bangladesh versus New York Fed or Bangladesh versus
whatever entity would be 81 minus whatever we can return. So, AMLC
first. With this testimony, $17 million, Philrem; 40 million, Midas; 100
million, Solaire, what can you do?

Then since two casinos are

involved, what can Pagcor do?


MS. ABAD. Well, under the law, the only remedy for AMLC is to
file petition for freeze. And when we file a petition for freeze, we have
to identifywe have to describe the specific asset that is being frozen,
Your Honor, thats why we would need information as to where these
monies are.

So if we can receive information that would show that

parts of these monies are with the junket operators and if we can
receive information pertaining to those junket operators, then we can
file appropriate petition for freeze, Your Honor.

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SEN. PIMENTEL.

Can you sort out the details later but freeze

100 million in Solaires assets; freeze 40 million in Midas assets and


then sort it out later who is the real person liable?
MS. ABAD.

As I have said, Your Honor, when we file a petition

for freeze with the Court of Appeals, we have to describe the assets
being frozen.

So we have to give details as to the assets that are

being frozen.

So without such description, it would be difficult for the

Court of Appeals to issue this-SEN. PIMENTEL.

I am referring to, of course, the cash

assetscash, bank deposits, etcetera, to the tune, only to the tune of


the amounts testified to by Mr. Kim Wong are still there, still being
there.

I dont think thats unfair.

We are not running after the entire

550 kasi nalaro na at natalo but sabi niya may 100 pang balanse, are
we not even going to try to recover the P100 million?
Anyway, we have heard Ms. Abads answer but, Pagcor, can you
not do anything about this?
MR. MANALASTAS.

Sir, the casino license have been very

cooperative with us from the start of our investigation until now. In


fact, they volunteered whatever amounts were left.

So, we can get

their cooperation on this, Your Honor.

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SEN. PIMENTEL.

But can we now reserve those amounts?

If

they are willing to cooperate, then they should not get hurt or be
insulted if such an amount is frozen?

Tama po ba iyon, sir?

If you

say that they are willing to cooperate, they told you they are willing to
cooperate, so whats wrong with
MR. MANALASTAS.

They have committed to freeze the

account, sir?
SEN. PIMENTEL.

They have committed to freeze the account?

Atty. Benny Tan.


MR. S. TAN. Yes, Your Honor, we confirm that we have frozen
the account and we are waiting for proper court order on how will they
be disposed of, Your Honor.
SEN. PIMENTEL.

You might get scolded, Atty. Tan.

SEN. OSMEA. Mr. Chair, would you like to repeat that, that
last sentence? I didnt quite catch it.

We admit that we are

MR. S. TAN. From our investigation


SEN. OSMEA.
MR. S. TAN.

You froze the accounts?

We have frozen the account.

SEN. OSMEA. What is contained in the accounts as frozen?

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MR. S. TAN. The total amount which we made from the Ding
group when we stopped the play last March 10, 2016, Your Honors,
total--107,350,602 in balance in their chips account. In addition, we
confiscated

various

denominations

of

cash

from

their

rooms

amounting to, when converted into pesos, Your Honor, P1,347,069.


We are committed to hold this and comply with whatever court order
would apply to this
SEN. OSMEA. Was this the subject of a freeze order?
MR. S. TAN.

Its internal, Your Honor.

This is companys

decision.
SEN. OSMEA.

You are doing better than RCBC. RCBC wont

freeze.
Yes, Macel, you want to say something.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Thank you, sir.
The bank has greater obligations, I believe, under existing laws.
SEN. OSMEA.

Greater obligations, to whom?

MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.
out.

To the depositors, as it turns

And I know what you will say, Your Honor, but


SEN. OSMEA.

Not to the Filipino people.

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MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.

As well, Your Honor.

We have

that obligatiion.
SEN. OSMEA.

We commend Solaire for freezing those

accounts.
MR. MANALASTAS. Thank you, Your Honor.
SEN. PIMENTEL.

May we ask Midas, but since Midas is Pagcor

operated, tama po ba iyon?

Its actually Pagcor committing to freeze

your own funds up to 40 million? Is that the proper way to look at it or


is itwho should be the one to freeze the 40 million?
MR. MANALASTAS.

Eastern Hawaii, sir.

SEN. PIMENTEL. Can you direct Eastern Hawaii to do it now?


MR. MANALASTAS. Yes, sir.
MR. WONG.

Sir, its already freeze.

Freeze na po, the 40

million po.
SEN. PIMENTEL.

At any time na pwedeng sabihin Make that

available, convert it to dollars, remit to the Bank of Bangladesh.


Gagawin ninyo?
MR. WONG.

Opo.

Mayroon po akong isang pera pa po

nandiyan cash, US dollars po.


SEN. PIMENTEL.

Magkano?

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MR. WONG. Four point 63 million po.


SEN. PIMENTEL. Akala koi yon iyong sa
MR. WONG. Hindi po, iyong natira po.
THE CHAIRMAN. Yes, if I may?
natira.

Thats the amount that was

So he has $4.6 million cash plus P40 million cash.

Am I

correct?
MR. WONG.

Yung sa Midas po. Ganito po. Yung tinanggap na

sinasabi ho nila sa akin, 600 million cash. Ang natanggap ko is 400


million cash, mayroong tinanggap na US$5 million. So nag-aaway na
po kami ngsi Ding, si Gao. Sabi ko ho, Hindi ho ito puwedeng kunin
ninyo ng cash.

Kailangan igalaw ninyo.

So nakuha po nila ng

US$370,000, doon nag-aaway na po kami. So natira lang po, ngayon


nandiyan po, nakatago siya diyan, any time gusto ninyo kunin,
US$4.63 million. Any time po kung gusto ninyo.
SEN. PIMENTEL. Thank you for volunteering that.
Who controls the US$4.63 million?
MR. WONG.
ang pangalan.

Nandiyang po sa junket, any time, Laking(?) Kao

Puwedeng-puwede ko po--gusto ninyo dalhin dito o

saan ninyo gusto dalhin?


SEN. PIMENTEL. Basta kontrolado ninyo, ha.

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MR. WONG.
SEN.

Oo, iutos ninyo lang sa akin.

PIMENTEL.

Pagcor,

can

we

secure

that

amount

immediately?
MR. WONG.

After this hearing po.

THE CHAIRMAN.

Senator, if I may?

Maybe it should be turned over properly to the Central Bank for


safekeeping.
Governor.

Were talking 4.6 million for safekeeping.

MR. ESPENILLA.

Mr. Chairman, I suppose somebody has to

consign it to BSP and BSP has vaults that can secure amounts.
THE CHAIRMAN. Yes, thats why I am saying, Mr. Kim Wong
can make arrangements with the Central Bank for him to turn over the
money to the Bangko Sentral for safekeeping.
MR. WONG.

Opo. Kausapin ko po, gawin ko pahatid ko pa.

THE CHAIRMAN.

Governor, there seems to be an unease on

your part?
MR. ESPENILLA.

Mr. Chairman, the BSP cannot take deposits

from the public cts

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MR. ESPENILLA.

from the public. What BSP possibly can do

is if the amounts can be put in a storage, lets say, in a box, secure


and then it will be witnessed and placed inside the BSP vaults, that
could be arranged.

Not unlike, for example, what was done for the

source code of the Comelec.


THE CHAIRMAN.

Yes. Im not talking about deposits. Im just

saying its lodged with you for safekeeping.


MR. ESPENILLA.

Yes, Mr. Chairman, analogous to the

situation that I described.


THE CHAIRMAN.

Okay then.

So, Mr. Kim, would you make arrangements with the Bangko
Sentral?
Anyway, after this meeting, you can meet with Governor
Espenilla to go over the procedure of turnover.
MR. WONG.

Yeah, I think, maybe the Ambassador of

Bangladesh can witness so we can put the box.


THE CHAIRMAN.

Whatever.

SEN. PIMENTEL.

Thank you, Mr. Wong, for volunteering that.

I missed thatits in my notes; may 4.63M nga, dollars.


Okay.

Mr. Chairman, Id like to dispute the interpretation of

RCBC of our law on the secrecy of bank deposits. They say that its

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the deposits are the ones being protected. But if you read the law, the
protection over the deposits would disappear or would dissipate if
there is a written permission of the depositor.

Therefore, the

protection is not for the benefit of the deposit but for the benefit of the
depositor. That is very, very clear.
Hence, if the depositors have been determined by the bank itself
as fictitious depositors, there is no point in invoking or applying the
bank secrecy law.
Now I am interested in looking at the documents used in opening
the five fictitious accounts.

If the Committee will adopt my

interpretation of the law, then we should be able to compel RCBC now


to submit all of those documents to this Committee so we can examine
them.
Okay.

Plus the short account transaction history because you

were open May 1, 2015; had activity February 5 and then


THE CHAIRMAN.
SEN. PIMENTEL.

Correct.
all amounts were gone by February 9 or

10. So if the Committee would agree with my interpretation, I think


we should be forcing RCBC to submit to us all the papers related to
those five fictitious accounts. And what has happened to my request

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for the transaction history of the July 2014 peso account of William So?
Have you submitted it to the Committee?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.
hearing.

I wasnt able to organize that.

I will submit in the next


But I understand what the

Honorable
SEN. OSMEA.

Were not waiting for the next hearing because

you guys always give these documents one hour before as if were
geniuses that we can absorb it. You will submit it tomorrow. Okay?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.

We will submit it tomorrow,

Your Honor.
SEN. OSMEA.

I just would like to warn the audience that

youre seeing a debate on law between two bar topnotchers. So you


better take this for posterity.
Thank you.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.

Your Honor, I defer to my

better bar topnotcher over here, Senator Pimentel.


I understand what he is saying and unfortunately there is no
jurisprudence as of the moment in any respect. And one interpretation
will be an advocates interpretation which can go either way. Theres
no court to determine at this point.

We have submitted all the

documents to the AMLC and if thats a way for the Senate to receive

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the reports, perhaps they could ask the AMLC. But we have submitted
all the documents relating to all the accounts to the AMLC, Your Honor.
THE CHAIRMAN.

Okay. In that case

SEN. PIMENTEL.

Mr. Chairman.

THE CHAIRMAN.

Senator Koko.

SEN. PIMENTEL.

Mr. Chairman, we have made the request

directly to RCBC.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.
SEN. PIMENTEL.

Yes, Your Honor.

Are they complying or not?

We want to

know. And we know that your reason would be bank secrecy, then I
will move that we will not accept the reason.
Is RCBC going to submit to this Committee all of the documents
including the opening forms for the five fictitious accounts opened at
RCBC Jupiter branch?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.

Your Honor, I stand corrected.

There is a Supreme Court case on the matter and it actually pertain to


the Velarde account.

And when the Supreme Court said that bank

secrecy did not apply to the Velarde account because it was fictitious,
it limited its decision only to that specific account.
So we do not have any decision yet that covers all the
supposedly fictitious accounts.

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SEN. PIMENTEL.

Better for us actually that there is no

decision. Therefore, this will be the precedent.

It will be a political

decision which you can question before the courts.

But I need an

answer if they are submitting or not because I will move that we will
now overrule.
THE CHAIRMAN.

Atty. Macel.

MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.

Your Honor, we always wish to

comply.
THE CHAIRMAN.

No, the answer.

MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.

The answer is we do not have

any legal jurisprudence or legal basis


THE CHAIRMAN.

So will you comply with the request?

MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.

We have submitted to the

AMLC, Your Honor.


THE CHAIRMAN.

No, the specific. Will you comply with the

request that you give the documents on the fictitious account? Yes or
no.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.

Your Honor, because the law is

clear
THE CHAIRMAN.

Yeah, I know that the law is clear to you but

I just need a categorical answer. Dont give me any phrase before

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MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.

No.

Your Honor, we cannot

comply.
THE CHAIRMAN.

You cannot comply.

Okay.

Thats all I

wanted.
SEN. PIMENTEL.

I move, Mr. Chairman, that we do not accept

the ground invoked by RCBC which is the bank secrecy law as a valid
reason not to comply with the request.

And if that should be our

interpretation, then I will move that they be cited for contempt.


THE CHAIRMAN.

Yes, actually that was our interpretation

even at the start. If you recall, iyong mga unang sinabi ko na bakit
ganoon, iyong tao fictitious, hindi totoong tao. And this morning also,
Senator Osmea reiterated that position.
At any rate
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.
THE CHAIRMAN.

Your Honor, may I just add?

Are you going to argue or are you going to

just comply?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.
THE CHAIRMAN.
oclock, eight oclock.

No, we cannot comply

Because we can argue and argue until seven

But if its going to beWe want a categorical

answer.
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.

I have given one, Your Honor.

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THE CHAIRMAN.

At this rate, Id like to call for abecause

Ive been informed that the sound system, the speakers, theres
something wrong with them and they would like five minutes to check
on the sound system.
SEN. PIMENTEL.

But Mr. ChairmanMacel, on the peso

account, theres no dispute? Because he signed a waiver.


MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.

Yes, we have discussed any

time.
SEN. PIMENTEL.

Comply tomorrow at the latest.

MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.

Ill try to see if I can have it

sent by today.
SEN. PIMENTEL.

Thank you.

THE CHAIRMAN.

Okay. So we call a five-minute suspension.

[THE HEARING WAS SUSPENDED AT 4:01 P.M.]/cmn

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[THE HEARING WAS RESUMED AT 4.21 P.M.]

THE CHAIRMAN.

Hearing resumed.

Before anything else, some administrative matters.


Ms. Bautista, its been two weeks. Its been requested from you
the

following,

by

Senators

Recto

and

Angara,

all

receipts

of

transactions involving the transferred funds. You have not submitted


yet.

Im not asking for an answer.

Im just telling you.

Second,

documents on the payment of the transaction--29 million remitted to


Solaire, 21 million remitted to Eastern Hawaii and 30 million cash to
Weikang Xu, requested by Senator Angara. And third, records on the
remittance to casinos, how many times, as well as the amount before
the 29 million remittance to Bloomberry, again Senator Angara. And
lastly, you undertook to give this Committee a picturesabi mo
piniktyuran (picture) mo iyong passport.

Give it to us by tomorrow

afternoon, all of these documents. Its been two weeks. Now, I need
a response.
MS. BAUTISTA. Yes, Your Honor.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. Thank you.

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Secondly, Mr. Kim Wong, gusto ko lang ulitin.

How much, for

the record, in dollars is there on your possession that youre willing to


give back?
MR. WONG.

Nakalagay po sa junket ng Solaire is US$4.63

million.
THE CHAIRMAN.

Four point sixty-three million US dollars

(US$4.63 million).
So, at least, there is something positive.
Ambassador is here.

His Excellency, the

At least there is a small but very positive

development is that, at least, we can give back US$4.63 million.

talked to Mr. Kim a while ago during the break and he is willing to
make arrangements through his lawyers to turn over the cash to the
AMLC. We agreed, instead of the Bangko Sentral, the AMLC. Anyway,
youre lodged within the Central Bank at the same time.

And from

there, its up to the Bangko Sentral and the Anti-Money Laundering


Council to turn over the cash to the Bangladeshi authorities.
So, at least, for starters mayroong positive na nangyari. We are
able to return a certain amount which presumably would not have
been unearthed had we not had these hearings. All right.
Okay. We go to the issue at hand.

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Senator Pimentel, you have the floor.


SEN. PIMENTEL.

I will now make a formal motion, Mr.

Chairman, for us to compel RCBC, specifically the president, Mr.


Lorenzo Tan, to produce by Thursday the account opening forms and
other related forms and the transaction history of the following
accounts opened at RCBC, Jupiter Branch: Ralph C. Picache, Account
No. 9013547037; Michael F. Cruz, Account No. 9013547047; Jessie
Christopher Lagrosas, Account No. 9013547055; Alfred S. Vergara,
Account No. 9013547098; and Enrico T. Vasquez, Account No.
9013547156. That is my motion, Mr. Chairman.
THE CHAIRMAN.

Senator Osmea?

SEN. OSMEA. I second the motion, Mr. Chairman.


THE CHAIRMAN.

The motion has been seconded.

Are there

any objections?
Minority Floor Leader.
SEN. ENRILE.
policy question.

Let me take a position.

This is a very major

You know, our government has adopted a general

banking policy that protects the depositors of this country. Now, the
purpose is very clear that we cannot open these accounts except the
authority granted by law, granted by us. Only on those grounds can

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you open those accounts.

From the point of view of the bank that

opened these accounts, at the time they were opened, they complied
with all the requirements of validity of opening the accounts.
Somebody now used them for an illegal purpose. Thats given. But it
is not within the jurisdiction of these legislative house or committee to
determine the illicitness of those accounts.
authority under the Constitution.

It is not within our

It is under the authority of the

judicial department of this government. And only they can determine


whether they will lift the secrecy according to the grounds specified by
the law.

If we are going to compel anybody here by our coercive

powers to require them to violate the law that we so imposed upon the
general public, what value will be those documents when the litigation
will come? They cannot be presented as evidence. They are brought
to the public by duress.

Its a rule of evidence that you cannota

court cannot accept any evidence that is taken by duress. So thats


my position. I think we better think about this very carefully because
we are legislators, we are not judges.
SEN. OSMEA. May I
THE CHAIRMAN. Senator Osmea.

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SEN. OSMEA.

I just would like to direct some clarificatory

questions at our colleague, if he so pleases.


SEN. ENRILE. Yes.
SEN. OSMEA. You said that these accounts had been validly
opened and all requirements had been met when the accounts were
opened.
SEN. ENRILE. Well
SEN. OSMEA. No, thats what you said.
SEN. ENRILE. Yes, thats correct.
SEN. OSMEA.

All right.

Could you tell me who opened the

accounts?
SEN. ENRILE. Well, according to the record-SEN. OSMEA.

Could anybody here tell us who opened the

accounts?
SEN. ENRILE.

The accounts were opened according to the

records, by Picache
SEN. OSMEA.

The accounts were opened by the bank

manager.
SEN. ENRILE. Vergara, Vasquez, Cruz and Lagrosas.

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SEN. OSMEA. But they dont exist. But, Mr. Senator, they do
not exist.
SEN. ENRILE. Huh?
SEN. OSMEA. These personalities, these persons do not exist
and they have been admitted--As a matter of fact, RCBC
SEN. ENRILE. How do we know that they do not exist?
SEN. OSMEA. said that youve been able to trace
SEN. ENRILE.

We better ask the registry of deaths if these

people are already dead or they were never been born.


SEN. OSMEA. Two, youve been able to identifyLet me ask
RCBC. Have you been able to identify the people in the pictures?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.

Your Honor, because bank

secrecy applies squarely, we cannot answer that.

But we have

submitted all required reports to the AMLC and to the BSP, Your Honor.
SEN. OSMEA. AMLC, can you answer that? Because I read in
an articleand Im sorry, I didnt clip the articlethat RCBC confirmed
the identity of two people in the photos and they were the leg men of
Maia Deguito working at the bank. In other words, peke/alicc

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SEN. OSMEA. In other words, peke.


Do you have that information, Ms. Abad?
MS. ABAD. Yes, sir. We conducted our own investigation and
based on the customer identification documents that we obtained from
RCBC it turned out that the two of the identification documents
submitted which were supposedly drivers license were not issued by
the LTO. So these are fake documents.
SEN. OSMEA. All right. So there is no person who opened the
account, Mr. Senator?
SEN. ENRILE. Can AMLC order anybody to open their accounts
under present existing laws?
THE CHAIRMAN. Ms. Abad, there is a question.
Can AMLC order anyone to open their account?
MS. ABAD. I am sorry, Your Honor. I didnt get the question.
SEN. ENRILE. Can AMLC disclose those accounts or open those
accounts without an authority of the courts?
MS. ABAD. Your Honor, under Section 11 of R.A. 9160
SEN. ENRILE. Okay.
MS. ABAD.

the AMLC may inquire into any particular bank

deposit which is an express exception to R.A. 1405, Your Honor.

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SEN. ENRILE.

Yes.

But can you open them to the public

knowledge?
MS. ABAD. Well, Your Honor, we did that. We gathered those
evidence or those documents in the course of our investigation and I
think the matter ofI mean, this investigation, the Senate inquiry
pertains to our investigation so I think I am justified in sharing this
information with this honorable body, Your Honor.
SEN. ENRILE.

If that is soif AMLC can do that, then as an

agency of the government, perform your powers and present it to


Congress instead of compelling the bank to do it.
Now, can you present them now to this
THE CHAIRMAN. Senator Osmea.
SEN. OSMEA.

My concern, Mr. Senator, is that no matter

which way you look at it, there is no legal person who opened these
accounts and we cannot treat these accounts like they were opened by
people who really exist and who signed the signature cards.
SEN. ENRILE.

But that is an opinion.

sustained by the court is something else.

Whether that will be

That is the opinion of a

member of this House.


SEN. OSMEA. Well, in the Jose Velarde account, Mr. Senator

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SEN. ENRILE.

But we are compelling a bank who has a

responsibility to its depositors to


SEN. OSMEA. There is no depositor.
SEN. ENRILE.

Well, any depositor.

If they can do that to a

person who opened an account, even if we suspect that he is a crook,


then what is this trust and confidence of the public in that bank?
SEN. PIMENTEL.

Mr. Chairman, can I pursue my motion?

THE CHAIRMAN. Senator Koko.


SEN. PIMENTEL. I am not swayed with the contrary opinion. I
have my own reading of the law. I believe if its a fictitious account, it
has no right to be protected under the law on bank secrecy.
Thats my opinion. So I am reiterating my motion, Mr. Chairman.
SEN. ANGARA. Before the Committee decides, Mr. Chair.
THE CHAIRMAN. Senator Angara.
SEN. ANGARA. I just like to elicit or ask our colleague what
information, Mr. Chair, is sought to be elicited?

And as a practical

matter, would it not be possible for the AMLC to provide that


information about the accounts?

What information are we asking

RCBC for specifically?


SEN. PIMENTEL. All of the account opening forms for the five
accounts so we can take a look at them. Look at the documents

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submitted, some are probably government issued IDs and find out
whether these are LTO authorized IDs or completely fake IDs,
etcetera.
We dont know, Mr. Chairman, what conclusions or what
information we can get from these documents. What is important is
that they be before us so that we can study them.

We didnt know

that the appearance of Kim Wong today would yield $4.63 million. We
never knew that. So we dont know.
SEN. ANGARA. Mr. Chair, can we ask if RCBC forwarded such
information to AMLC? Because there is more than one way to skin a
cat and if we can get this information from AMLC, thenbecause I can
understand the dilemma of the bank because there such a thing as
bank runs, there such a thing as criminal sanctions under
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.

Criminal sanctions on the

officers, Your Honor.


THE CHAIRMAN. Yes, Atty. Macel.
SEN. ANGARA. Have you given those in your report?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Yes, Your Honor.
SEN. ANGARA. How many reports have you filed?
MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO. Numerous. We filed all the
SEN. ANGARA. So are those details in the

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MS. FERNANDEZ-ESTAVILLO.

Yes.

And we can submit

everything to the AMLC pursuant to the open examination.


SEN. ANGARA. So I leave it to the Committee, Mr. Chair. But
as a practical matter, if we can get that information via the AMLC, then
I propose that route.
THE CHAIRMAN. Is this information already with you, Ms. Julia
Bacay-Abad?
MS. ABAD.

Yes, Your Honor.

All the customer identification

documents that were supposedly submitted by the account holders are


already with the AMLC, Your Honor.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay.
SEN. PIMENTEL.

Plus the transaction history of the five,

everything with you?


THE CHAIRMAN. Verbal response, please.
MS. BACAY-ABAD. Yes, Your Honor.
THE CHAIRMAN. One minute suspension.
[THE HEARING WAS SUSPENDED AT 4:35 P.M.]/mpm

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[THE HEARING WAS RESUMED AT 4:40 P.M.]

THE CHAIRMAN.

Hearing resumed.

Upon conferring with the Anti-Money Laundering Council, they


have told us that they have the information and that they are willing to
give us the information.
Senator Koko Pimentel.
SEN. PIMENTEL.

Well, accepting the wisdom of the youngest

senator present this afternoon, Mr. Chairman, I am willing to suspend


my motion. I am not abandoning my motion. We can confront this
issue again in the future because I sincerely believe that a fictitious
account already determined by the bank as fictitious is not entitled to
any protection, much more the very, very strict protection by the Law
on Secrecy of Bank Deposits.
So I am willing to suspend my motion, await the submission of
the AMLC of all of the account opening forms of the five accounts I
have mentioned plus transaction history plus everything related to the
five accounts and subject to completeness of the submission. Should I
found them complete, then I will no longer push for my motion. But if
the documents are not complete, then we will have to get from RCBC
the missing documents, should there be any.

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MS. ABAD. Mr. Chairman.


THE CHAIRMAN. Yes, Ms. Abad.
MS. ABAD. Just to make it of record that these documents that
we have obtained in the course of our bank inquiry, these have been
attached to the criminal complaint that we already filed with the DOJ.
So as far as these documents are concerned, these are already of
public record.

These are already public.

THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. Thank you.


SEN. PIMENTEL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. Confrontation avoided.
SEN. PIMENTEL.

I have the floor, but I am done with my

questioning, Mr. Chairman.


THE CHAIRMAN. The Chairman would just like to express that
he is one with Senator Koko in the view that the bank deposits of a
fictitious person can be opened since there is no depositor to protect.
The purpose of the secrecy is to protect the depositor himself, but in
this case, it has been established to be a fictitious person and,
therefore, the laws cannot be used to hide criminal activities.
SEN. ENRILE.

Mr. Chair, may I respectfully react to your

statement?
THE CHAIRMAN. Yes.

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SEN. ENRILE.

They are not fictitious.

about persons here as depositors.

We have been talking

Its only that they submerged.

They disappeared. Thats why the best proof of their existence or nonexistence is get the Registry of Death and the records of birth.
THE CHAIRMAN. Well, they are fictitious, Mr. Senator, in the
sense that they did not open the accounts and these hearings have
been dragging on ever since and they have not shown up.

The

records,

the

as

found

by

the

Anti-Money

Laundering

Council,

documents submitted have been certified as fake and therefore there


is enough reasonable basis to get to a conclusion that they are
fictitious persons.
SEN. ENRILE.

Well, Mr. Chair, I have been sitting in this

hearing since the beginning and the worse that I heard from the
manager of the bank, from her own lips under oath before us, is that
these were referred clients and they completed all the identification
documents, including the required bank documents to be filled. They
exist according to the sworn testimony before us.
THE CHAIRMAN.

Well, according to the bank manager, they

were given to her. According to her testimony, they were given to her
accomplished already. She did not see them personally sign the
documents.

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SEN. ENRILE. Even that is now in question.


THE CHAIRMAN. But youre the one Mr. Senator who brought
up the testimony of the bank manager.

I am just stating that that

testimony of the bank manager says that she did not personally see
them sign the documents.
SEN. ENRILE. Well, then if she did not, then that will remain a
subject of disciplinary action later on. But can we take that as a lifting
of the privilege granted under the law? They are depositors. The bank
has a duty to protect its own depositors as far as the bank is
concerned. There are depositors listed in their deposit list of accounts.
THE CHAIRMAN. Well, that may be your opinion, Mr. Senator,
but that is certainly not my opinion. My opinion is that there is enough
reasonable basis to regard them as fictitious. And therefore, I stand
by my opinion.
SEN. ENRILE.

Well, I happen to be a lawyer like you and I

respect the processes of my profession.


THE CHAIRMAN. Okay. That being said, I dont see where this
will go since the motion has already been suspended, Mr. Senator.
SEN. ENRILE. All right.
THE CHAIRMAN.

Okay.

The next one to ask questions is

Senator Angara.

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SEN. ANGARA. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.


Magandang hapon po sa lahat.
Siguro gusto kong i-approach iyong issue mula sa ibang aspeto
naman, iyong sa gambling aspect.
May I address, Mr. Chair, some questions to the casino
operators? Baka alam ni Mr. Wong, baka alam ng Midas, ano po iyong
dead chips? Kasi hindi po ako gambler, so could you explain in very
simple terms ano iyong concept ng dead chips, kailan ito ginagamit at
ano iyong purpose nito?
MR. S. TAN. Can I answer that, Your Honor? Dead chips are
THE CHAIRMAN. Excuse me. Just for the record so that the
stenographers know, Atty. Benny Tan of Solaire.
MR. S. TAN. Yes.
THE CHAIRMAN. Go ahead.
MR. S. TAN. Dead chips, Your Honor, are non-negotiable chips.
They cannot be in cash. They are issued for purposes of being played.
Well, backtracking, in our casino, you cannot bet cash, you can only
use chips. Chips are plastic tokens issued by the casino in exchange
for cash that you will pay in the cage, the cashier or in exchange for
credit issued by the casino. So its a token. It is issued for players
which applies for commissions, comps, so that their play is monitored,

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how many times they play is monitored.

So when a person use the

dead chips, non-negotiable chips to bet and wins, he is given cash


chips. Cash chips are from winnings in the betting table and the cash
chips, those are the ones which you can go and encash with the cage,
Your Honors.
THE CHAIRMAN. Attorney, kanino usually binibigay iyong dead
chips, just to regular gamblers, high rollers? Kanino ba binibigay iyan?
MR. S. TAN.

Usually, the high rollers and the junkets, Your

Honor.
SEN. ANGARA. Oo. But as you mentioned, you cannot gamble
cash. Pero sa akin, iyong normal chips, parang cash iyon, hindi ba,
pwede mong i-encash kaagad?
purpose niya?

Bakit iyong dead chips, ano iyong

Is it an incentive to the gamblers? Meaning, hindi ba

nagbibigay kayo ng mga kwarto, ganoon? Iyong dead chips, insentibo


din ba iyon?
MR. S. TAN. No, Your Honor /jmb

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MR. S. TAN.

No, Your Honor.

Its a form to be able to

monitor their play. So a high roller will not go to a casino, exchange


his money for chips and then turn around and encash it in the cage.
Its not done. So a high roller goes to the casino, deposits cash, gets
dead chips, sits down and plays.
The casino, Your Honor, has a casino management system which
monitors the play of its player. So the casino management system will
identify the players, the table where he plays, how much he bets, how
much he wins, how much he losses. And when he turns around and
gets his winning chips, goes to the cage to encash them. All of that is
monitored in our casino management system, Your Honor.

Thats

why, well, Id like to correct the impression that casinos, you know,
are black holes.

That you go to a casino, everything disappears

without a trace.

That is not true, Your Honor.

The casino, as

mandated by Pagcor, must have a casino management system which


must track every player, their identity, how much they played. All of
those details, mountain of details, Your Honor, the casino has them.
SEN. ANGARA.

Mr. Chair, for whose benefit is the issuance of

dead chips? Sabi niyo its to monitor the player. But if Im the player,
hindi ko maintindihan, why would I want to be monitored?

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MR. MANALASTAS.

Your Honor, can I?

THE CHAIRMAN. Mr. Manalastas, you want to answer? Please


go ahead, sir.
MR. MANALASTAS. Yes. Simply put, the junket play, the use
of non-negotiable chips is the only way for the junket agents, the
operator and the owner of the casino to monitor the activity of the
player and that is where they derive also their income.
So for every turn, the player losses, the agent gets a
commission and, of course, the operator gets the windfall.

I mean,

they win everything and same with the casino.


SEN. ANGARA. Its a system developed for the benefit of the
agent and the casino?
MR. MANALASTAS. Yes, thats their way of recouping their
SEN. ANGARA. And does the agent make money on both wins
and losses?

Meaning, pag nanalo, may commission siya doon sa

gambler; pag natalo, may commission siya doon sa casino, tama ho


iyon?
MR. MANALASTAS.
SEN. ANGARA.

Youre correct.

I see, okay.

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And is it customary to issue credit lines to high rollers? Because


that seems to be the impression here, that you issued a credit line for
around 450 million in favor of the client of Mr. Wong, si Mr. Gao. Is
that customary? Is that the customary arrangement?
MR. MANALASTAS. Your Honor, with todays competition in the
casino industry, they do.
more

players

to

your

This has been a regular way of attracting


operations

by

providing

them

withby

bankrolling them, Your Honor.


SEN. ANGARA. So how much would you estimate of the money
that comes into the casinos since youre the regulator? Ilan iyong is
gambled through dead chips? What percent? It doesnt have to be an
exact figure. I just like to know the extent of the dead chips scenario.
If you need time, you can take your time and give it to us a bit
later. Do you need time to answer that?
MR. MANALASTAS. Yes, Your Honor.
SEN. ANGARA.

Sige, well give you.

Just let us know how

much time you need.


And, in the meantime, paki-sabi ho sa amin, when you say its
monitored, sino ang nagmo-monitor nung dead chips? Mino-monitor

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iyon pag pinalit na because you assume that, eventually, at the end of
the day, pag nanalo iyon, papalitan niya ng real chips.
MR. MANALASTAS.

Your Honor

SEN. ANGARA. How is the monitoring done by the casinos


MR. MANALASTAS. the dead chips are the most monitored
SEN. ANGARA.

Could you walk us through

the proceeding?

Kunyari ako si Mr. Gao, pumasok ako ng casino, bumili ako ng


hundred

million na dead chips.

Paano niyo mino-monitor iyon sa

casino?
MR. MANALASTAS. Well, No. 1, the junket operator has all the
records as to how much he will be playing. And then on the table, all
the dealers, I mean, all the supervisors will keep records and, of
course, the cage, meaning, the cashier.

And then, of course, the

agent himself because those are his players. He would want to monitor
them for purpose of collecting his commission.
SEN. ANGARA.

You mean to say the agent is there o

umaaligid-ligid lang siya, ganoon lang siya?

Hes there the whole

night or he comes back after a few hours.


MR. MANALASTAS.

He has staff also.

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SEN. ANGARA.

Okay.

And when you say the dealers

monitor, you mean to say, if I transfer from baccarat towhats


another game?roulette, alam lahat nung dealers na iyon?
MR. MANALASTAS. Sir, in junket play, its only baccarat.
SEN. ANGARA. Its only baccarat. Could you explain baccarat
to us? How is that game played? Im really not a gambler so
MR. MANALASTAS.

Sir, its very similar toif youre familiar

with Lucky 9. Player who getsI mean, if you get nine, thats
SEN. ANGARA. Is it just the dealer and the player or there are
many players?
MR. MANALASTAS.

Well, it depends.

that he be alone in the table, then we oblige.

If the player prefers


But then there are

instances where there are multiplayers in one table.


SEN. ANGARA.

Yes.

When you say you monitored this, for

example, itong sinugal na 400 or 500 million. I think 550 million iyong
nabanggit na nawala sa casinos, iyong losses.
saan iyon, in what span of time, for example?

Would you know kung


Would you have an

exact record of that?


MR. MANALASTAS. A normal playera junket player would be
about a week. So it depends on how much you will be betting.

So if

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he can lose it all in one or two days, then thats it.

But then

sometimes they do extend. And then after, for example, if they lose,
they may enroll or check in another amount.
SEN. ANGARA.

Ill be more specific, Mr. Chair.

Kasi ang

testimonya ho ni Mr. Wong, doon sa $21 million or one billion pesos na


napunta sa Eastern Hawaii from Philrem, 550 million ang nilaro sa
casino at nawala, tama ho ba?
Is that correct, Mr. Wong? Tama ho ba iyong sinabi ko?
MR. WONG. Hindi po.
SEN. ANGARA. Ano iyong figure?
MR. WONG. Iyong 550 ho na nilaro, may record po iyon. Every
time, every game, kung sino ang naglaro, makikita po iyon.
SEN. ANGARA. Nawala iyon, iyong 550 million?
MR. WONG.

Hindi, may natira pa.

Pag nanalo sila, minsan,

kinukuha na iyong cash over doon sa checking.

For example, may

naglaro ng one million, tapos nanalo siya one point five, di puwede
niya kuning cash. Pero pag nilabas niya po iyong one million, natalo
una natalo siya ng 500, iyong 500 naka-record, talo ho siya, isosoli sa
cage.

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Iyong 550 million po, more or less, may natira sa Midas, nasa 40
plus million.
SEN. ANGARA. So 510 iyong nasugal at natalo doon sa junket
na hawak ho ninyo?
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. ANGARA. Mr. Wong, 510 million ho iyong natalo. Ilang
players ho iyon? Isa lang ho ba iyon, si Mr. Gao lang iyon?
MR. WONG. Hindi po, marami. Iche-check ko ho sa operation.
SEN. ANGARA.

Sige. Paki-furnish na lang iyong Committee ho

ng mga detalye, ilan po iyong natalo roon at kung


MR. WONG. Opo. Ilan po naglaro, opo.
SEN. ANGARA. ilan ang naglaro at over what period of time.
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. ANGARA.

Mr. Chair, Id like to address this again to the

gambling community here.


Is it possible to make double bets, meaning, bets on both sides?
Meaning, you bet on thefor lack of a better metaphor, like in
roulette, you bet on red and black. Dalawa lang iyon, di ba, pero you
place

a bet on both red and black.

lang iyong pera mo.

So in other words, hinugas mo

Mr. Chair, I ask this question because I was

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talking to some people in the industry and they said one way of
laundering money through the casinos is by placing bets on both sides.
MR. MANALASTAS.

Senator, thats what we call balance

betting. And we smell that a mile away.


SEN. ANGARA. So in this case, there is no record of balance
betting?

Can you categorically say there is no record of balance

betting?
MR.

MANALASTAS.

Senator,

napakarami

hong

nagbabantay/jbc

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MR. MANALASTAS.

napakarami hong nagbabantay doon sa

transaction. And their income depends on the play of the players.


SEN. ANGARA.
betting?

Pero bawal ba ho iyon? Bawal iyong balanced

Is it prohibited?

Meaning, pag nakita ninyong may nagba-

balanced bet huhulihin ninyo iyon?


MR. MANALASTAS.

Alam na ho namin iyon.

SEN. ANGARA. Pero ang tanong ho, Mr. Chair, is bawal ho ba


iyon?
MR. MANALASTAS.

Well, technically its nothindi naman ho

bawal but then we know that that is not correct in terms of-SEN. ANGARA.

Yes, we are not asking about the morality, Mr.

Chair, we are asking about the physical possibility of it happening.


MR. MANALASTAS.
SEN. ANGARA.

They can always do it.

So I think thats something that the Pagcor

should look into, Mr. Chair, because if its possible then it can be done
already because any amendment to the AMLA will be passed in the
Seventeenth Congress. And so right here, we have an admission that
its--from the gambling regulator that its possible to launder money in
this form of balanced betting. So I think maybe Pagcor can require
casinos to provide records of this balanced betting.

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And to my earlier question, Mr. Chair, can Pagcor categorically


say that there was no balanced betting in the case of the junkets
handled by Mr. Kim Wong?
MR. MANALASTAS.

Sir, let me backtrack.

When I earlier

mentioned that we smell that a mile away, we have ways of preventing


that to happen.
SEN. ANGARA.

Please explain to us. Pero bawal ho ba siya

kasi tinanong ko kanina wala pa hong sagot, bawal ho ba iyong


balanced betting?
MR. MANALASTAS.
SEN. ANGARA.

Well, for us, it will be quite obvious.

Hindi, bawal ho ba siya?

Is it against any

casino regulation or policy?


MR. MANALASTAS.

Well, we cannot prevent any player from

betting in what banker player of his preference.

However, when we

have thatwhen we see that, we have many ways of preventing it to


happen.
SEN. ANGARA.

Ilang years na po kayo sa Pagcor?

MR. MANALASTAS.
SEN. ANGARA.

Since 1986.

Ilan na po ang nahuli ninyo na nagba-balanced

betting o prinivent (prevent) ninyo, you called their attention for it?

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MR. MANALASTAS.
SEN. ANGARA.

Medyo marami na rin ho.

In the hundreds or in the thousands?

MR. MANALASTAS.

More than thousands.

SEN. ANGARA. Okay. So I would like to ask you categorically


kung dito sa junket ho ni Mr. Wong, is there a case of balanced betting
here?
MR. MANALASTAS.

Hindi ho papayagan nung operator at

sakaeven the agents will not allow it to happen.


SEN. ANGARA.

Bakit ho?

MR. MANALASTAS.

Normally, the agent controls his players.

They are there to play. And then when they see this happen,
immediately they will be accosted.
SEN. ANGARA.

Kung prinamis (promise) ho noong gambler

iyong operator na bibigyan kayo ng cut noong pera, hindi ba


nagbabago iyong mga insentibo?
MR. MANALASTAS.

Sir, there are other parties that are also

monitoring.
SEN. ANGARA.

Such as?

MR. MANALASTAS.

Well, number one, the owner of the

casino, the operator--

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SEN. ANGARA.

Iyon nga.

So if the owner of the casino is

promised a cut of the money then he is not so watchdog like anymore,


hindi ho ba?
MR. MANALASTAS.

Mas malaki ho ang kikitain kapag natalo

iyong player rather than just a small commission.


SEN. ANGARA.

Okay. But, lets say, its one percent of 81

million, is that still a small commission, thats already $800,000?


MR. MANALASTAS.

Sir, one percent versus 81 million, Id go

for 81 million.
SEN. ANGARA.

Anyway, I think weve made the point that its

a loophole already in the system. Weve identified a weakness in the


system, Mr. Chair, that we can plug with the help of the regulator in
the absence of an AMLA which covers casinos, Mr. Chair. Thats my
only point here.
Ill move on to the taxation aspect, Mr. Chair, because we have
heard a lot of transactions, medyo nahihilo na nga tayo. Palagay ko
nahihilo din ang publiko sa dami ng transaction dito.

And perhaps

thats the intent, by design, its meant to be complicated. I would like,


Mr. Chair, to invite the BIR, a representative from the BIR to attend
the next meetings. Because kung hindi natin makuha iyong pera dito

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na sabi nila nakaw, at least siguro may makuha iyong taong bayan in
the form of taxes. Because hindi ba iyong mga remittancesvarious
remittances, subject to documentary stamp tax ho iyon. Iyon naman
hong deposits, no matter how short it passes through the bank, thats
subject to withholding tax ho.

Tapos ito namangiyong mga pera

would be subject to other taxes such as income tax, among other


things.
So I so move, Mr. Chair, if we could invite the BIR to take a look
at these transactions.
THE CHAIRMAN.

All right, so ordered.

ComSec, please make sure at the next hearing we have a


representative of the Bureau of Internal Revenue present.
So ordered.
SEN. ANGARA.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

On the same topic, can I ask Philrem doon sa--kaya natin


hinihingi iyong mga dokumento sapagkatwell, that was the first
hearing, wala pa tayong masyadong alam noon, ngayon mas marami
na tayong alam at parang nagtatalo iyong testimonya ninyo ni Mr.
Wong. Because you said you made $10 million.
MS. BAUTISTA.

Pesos lang, sir.

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SEN. ANGARA.

Pesos, Im sorry.

And Mr. Wong said that

anong sabi ninyo ho, Mr. Wong, magkano ang naiwan sa Philrem ho?
MR. WONG.

Seventeen million plus dollars po.

SEN. ANGARA.

So malaki ho iyong diperensiya.

Thats why I

think its more crucial that we present evidence of any transactions.


So lahat ba ng transaction ninyo oral iyon, wala hong written
transactions? Kasi we are talking about ang lalaki ho ng halaga.
MS. BAUTISTA.

Yes, Your Honor, from the branch manager.

SEN. ANGARA.

Oral. How about iyong paglipat ho ng pera sa

tatlong binigyan ninyo ng pera ho?


MS. BAUTISTA.
SEN. ANGARA.

Ano ho iyon, bank to bank ho iyon.


Bank to bank?

MS. BAUTISTA.

Yes.

SEN. ANGARA.

Mayroon bang binayad doon na documentary

stamp tax?
MS. BAUTISTA.

Sir, pag nagpapalit po ng US dollars to pesos,

hindi ho siya subject sa documentary stamps.


SEN. ANGARA.

But what about the service of your delivering

the money because thats a different transaction already?

I mean,

those are all different transactions, ibang transaction iyong pagpapalit

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ng foreign exchange, ibang transaction din po iyong pagde-deliver


ninyo. Because, as you said, you are not a foreign exchange company,
hindi ba, you are a remittance company.
MS. BAUTISTA.

Yes, Your Honor.

SEN. ANGARA.

So iyong service of remittance, its a different

service all together, hindi ho ba?

I dont know, maybe its even

subject to value-added tax because all goods and services are subject
to value-added tax, Mr. Chair.
MS. BAUTISTA.
SEN. ANGARA.

I know we are covered by VAT but Im-So you paid VAT on those transfers to the

different actors, Eastern Hawaiian, Bloomberry and-MS. BAUTISTA.

Sir, papasok pa lang ho yata iyong ano pag

report namin sa BIR for the next year.


SEN. ANGARA.

VAT returns I think are monthly--monthly ho

MS. BAUTISTA.

Sorry, quarterly po.

SEN. ANGARA.

So is your answer that you have paid VAT but

iyon.

you are nothow about the DST, documentary stamp tax?


MS. BAUTISTA.

I have to check but I believe hindi yata ho

kami covered ng DST.

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SEN. ANGARA.

Okay, sige. Maybe thats why we really need

the BIR, Mr. Chair, to see.


Thank you.
Ang tanong ko naman sa Philrem ho, Mr. Chair, is bakit ho
kinailangan iyong serbisyo ninyo dito? Because ang understanding ko
ng remittance company is galing po sa abroad iyong pera tapos wala
hongdadaan ho sa inyo dahil kayo iyong nagpapadala ng pera sa tao
dito sa Pilipinas or vice versa galing sa Pilipinas, doon po.

Pero sa

akin bakit--parang kasi in terms of efficiency of the transaction parang


dagdag na layer kayo. So Im just wondering bakit ba kinailangan
iyong inyong serbisyo dito?
MS. BAUTISTA.

Actually, Your Honor, tinawagan lang ho kami

dito. Hindi ko ho alam bakit ho kami kinailangan pang gamitin.

Pero

baka ho dahil kasi sa delivery-SEN. ANGARA.

But, of course, from your point of view

siyempre negosyo iyan, hindi ba?


MS. BAUTISTA.
SEN. ANGARA.
MS. BAUTISTA.

Oho.
So you accept.
Yes.

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SEN. ANGARA.

Of your business, maam, Mr. Chair, ilang

porsiyento ang transaksyon na ganito?

Na, meaning, ang daming

actors na kung tutuusin iyong services ninyo ay, in a way, redundant


na o kaya hindi naman absolutely necessary.

Kasi kung lehitimo man

iyong transaction, iyong account owners ang magwi-withdraw ng pera,


sila ang magpapalit, hindi pa sila magbabayad ng third party for the
transaction, hindi ho ba?

So Im just wondering iyong conventional

baka mali rin iyong understanding ko ng remittances, pero how much


of your business is foreign to local or local to foreign and how much is,
I guess, for lack of a better term, how much is just money delivery?
Because I think thats what youthats the service you perform. Its a
remittance but, I guess, its not an overseas remittance, its a local
remittance. Its a form of money delivery, hindi ba?

So ano iyong--

Yung question is/rjo

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SEN. ANGARA.

Yung question is, ano iyong mas malaking

portion noong inyong business, is it the foreign to local, is it the


overseas, or is it the delivery of money?
MS. BAUTISTA.

Sir, ang business ho kasi namin money

remittance, so its more on inward remittances that we get from our


clients abroad.

And in the course of the nature of the business, we

also have to do conversion before we do the delivery and do the other


services.
SEN. ANGARA. You have never done this type of transaction?
Is this unique to your business, itong nangyari dito sa 81 million?
MS. BAUTISTA. Ive done it before, Your Honor.
SEN. ANGARA. With RCBC also? How many times?
MS. BAUTISTA. Your Honor, we do these kinds of transactions
almost every time, with all the banks.
SEN. ANGARA. With all the banks?
MS. BAUTISTA. Oo.
SEN. ANGARA. So ano iyong tingin nyo?
Siyempre, I understand your point of view kasi kita iyan, di ba?
So youll accept the business.

But for your purposes, ano yung sa

tingin nyo, what is your opinion na bakit kayo kinukuha nung mga tao,

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bakit hindi nila ginagawa by themselves?

Why dont they just

withdraw the money from the bank, change the money in the bank,
and then give it to whoeverthe junket operator or the casino owner,
et cetera? Why do they have to go through you?
MS. BAUTISTA. Your Honor, I really do not know. Maybe kasi
baka mabilis ho kami mag-deliver at saka mataas ho ang aming
conversion pagka nag-aano kami.
SEN. ANGARA.

Pero kung wala kayo, mas maliit ang gastos

noong deposit owner, hindi ho ba?


MS. BAUTISTA. Sir, depende na ho sa may-ari noong, I mean,
doon sa client po iyon. Hindi ko ho alam talaga po.
SEN. ANGARA. Uh-huh. But would you admit, Mr. Chair, that
hiring Philrem adds a layer of cost sa transactions?
MS. BAUTISTA. I think so, sir, because
SEN. ANGARA. Okay. Thank you.
MS. BAUTISTA. Oo, mas mahal. Mas mahal ho. Oo.
SEN. ANGARA. Yes. Yes. All right. Sige.
Ill go naman dito kay Mr. Kim Wong.
Bakit ninyo nasabi na may $17 million po sa Philrem? Bakit nyo
po nasabi iyon?

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MR. WONG. Kasi po $29 million napunta sa Solaire, $21 million


napunta sa Midas. Yeah.
SEN. ANGARA. Sa Eastern Hawaii?
MR. WONG. Opo, opo. Twenty-nine plus 21 is 50.
SEN. ANGARA. Fifty, opo.
MR. WONG. Fifty million dollars.
SEN. ANGARA. Opo.
MR. WONG. Plus 18 is
SEN. ANGARA. Sixty-eight po. Sixty-eight.
MR. WONG.

Hindi, iyong sinasabi po di ba nila po, yung 80

million po di ba na-deliver po kay Weikang Xu di ba?


SEN. ANGARA. Opo. Opo.
MR. WONG. Iyon ang sabi ko pala, di ba?
Fifty plus 18 is 68.
SEN. ANGARA. Opo.
MR. WONG. So 68, di ba iyong 600 million na i-convert natin
sa dollars.

Six hundred po, di mga 12 million.

More or less $12

million. So i-plus mo, 68 saka 12, so mga 81 million po.


SEN. ANGARA. Saan nanggaling ho yung 17?

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MR. WONG.

Hindi, dito po saSinabi po di ba yung ide-

deliverIyong P600 million dineliber (deliver) kay Weikang Xu,


nandoon lang po ako, at yung 80 million po na dollars na nandoon din
po ako. Iyong 600 million cash po, yun ang alam ko tinanggap ko po
iyon, more or less.

Iyong 18hindi naman siya 18 eksakto na 17

something million, wala po.


SEN. ANGARA. Wala? Pero may personal knowledge ho kayo
na nasa kanila iyong pera na iyon?
MR. WONG. Sigurado po.
SEN. ANGARA. Uh-huh.
MR. WONG. Kasi 29 sa Solaire.
SEN. ANGARA. Opo.
MR. WONG. Twenty-one sa Midas.
SEN. ANGARA. Yes.
MR. WONG. More or less 18 di ba, iyong sinasabi ni Weikang
Xu saka ako, natanggap ko daw, at saka yung 600. Tapos iyon di ba
four point something kasi iyong 600 million cash na may 400 million na
peso at saka iyong US$5 million, iyon yung equivalent to 600 million
cash iyon. So total ho, almost 81 million po.
SEN. ANGARA. Okay.

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Well, anyway, Mr. Chair, Id like to point out, baka marami na rin
na nahihilo dito sa mga numero, but according to the earlier testimony
of Philrem, there are three beneficiaries ho, iyong Weikang Xu, iyong
Solaire, at saka Eartern Hawaii. Ayon naman ho sa testimonya ni Mr.
Kim Wong, he agrees that there was 29 million to Solaire and $21
million to Eastern Hawaii.

So hindi na natin pinag-aawayan yung

pinuntahan noong 50 million. It is the $30 million na theres a dispute


or there is conflicting testimony, Mr. Chair.

So maybe we can ask

Philrem, what do you say to this allegation of Mr. Wong that mayroon
pang naiwan sa inyong $17 million?
MS. BAUTISTA.

Sir, wala pong naiwan sa amin.

Dineliber

(deliver) po namin lahat.


SEN. ANGARA. Okay. So I guess yung point of contention ho
dito, Mr. Chair, iyong $30.6 million cash delivered to Weikang Xu.
Mayroon hong dokumento ba iyon or kung walang dokumento, are
there any witnesses who saw you deliver that amount to
MS. BAUTISTA. Sir, mayroon po. Mayroon pong document.
SEN. ANGARA. Sino po?
MS. BAUTISTA. Hindi, mayroon pong document na naka-file.
SEN. ANGARA. Ah, may dokumento iyon?

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MS. BAUTISTA. Opo. Opo.


SEN. ANGARA. Ay kala ko kanina tinanong ko kung mga oral
iyong mga
MS. BAUTISTA. No, when I got the instructions they were all
oral.
SEN. ANGARA.

Okay.

But the delivery of the money

mayroong
MS. BAUTISTA. Mayroon po.
SEN. ANGARA. Ano yung dokumento, may receipt ganoon?
MS. BAUTISTA. Opo. Iyong ano, parang ano lang muna
SEN. ANGARA.

Sige, paki-furnish na lang iyong Committee

para mayroon tayong


MS. BAUTISTA. Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
SEN. ANGARA.

At sino ang nag-deliver noong 30 million to

Weikang Xu?
MS. BAUTISTA.

Iyong first time po, ako.

Pero iyong mga

susunod na mga transactions sa kanila, tao ko na lang.


SEN. ANGARA. Ilan pong transactions iyon in total?
MS. BAUTISTA.

I have to check, Your Honor, kasi that was

between February 5 to 13.

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SEN. ANGARA. And iyong first time, magkano ho ang binigay


ninyo kay Weikang Xu?
MS. BAUTISTA. Ninety million pesos.
SEN. ANGARA. Ninety million pesos ho?
MS. BAUTISTA. Opo.
SEN. ANGARA. Saan ho iyon?
MS. BAUTISTA. Sa Solaire po.
SEN. ANGARA. Yeah. Well, upon prodding from our Chair, its
a very good point, I think, maybe you can bring your person who made
the delivery of succeedingthe next time
MS. BAUTISTA. Okay. Yes, Your Honor.
SEN. ANGARA. Thank you.
Mr. Chair, Thank you.
Sige.

So doon talaga umiikot ho iyong 30.6 na its being

disputed.
Back to Mr. Wong, sabi nyo willing kayo mag-cooperate, so we
appreciate that ho at iyong pagpunta nyo dito.
Sabi nyo willing ho kayo, tama ba, na ibabalik nyo ho iyong
$4.6 million na nasa cage or cashier ng Eastern Hawaii?

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MR. WONG. Opo. Nag-ano na po kami ni chairman po, iyong


abogado ko po dadalhin po sa AMLC bukas po.
SEN. ANGARA. Dadalhin iyong pera?
MR. WONG. Opo, cash po iyon.
SEN. ANGARA. Cash, bubuhatin nyo po?
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. ANGARA. May bodyguard naman po kayo?
MR. WONG. Bahala na po ang abogado ko po. Kumuha siya ng
PNP po.
SEN. ANGARA. Okay. Well, anyway, thats good. At least may
napala tayo dito sa pamumuno po ni Chairman Guingona ng Blue
Ribbon, may maibabalik kung saka-sakali.
Ayaw nyo ho ibalik yung 450 million na sinabing utang sa inyo?
MR. WONG.

Kung ire-require ko po.

utang puwede ko po iutang uli.

Kasi binayaran ko pong

Babayaran ko po kung willing po.

Babayaran ko po.
SEN. ANGARA. Meaning, pag ni-require kayo na ibalik, ibabalik
nyo ho?
MR. WONG. Babayaran ko po.
SEN. ANGARA. Ah, 450 million dollars ho iyon o pesos?

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MR. WONG. No, P450 million po.


SEN. ANGARA. Pesos. Okay.
MR. WONG. Opo. Kasi po sa negosyo naming casino kailangan
may word of honor kami.
SEN. ANGARA. I understand. Opo. So handa ho kayong ibalik
iyon kung saka-sakali? Pero sa inyo, ang tingin nyo ba illegal iyong
pinanggalingan ho noong 450 million?
MR. WONG. Tingin ko po hindi, pero kung sa ngayon po na
nalaman ko po ganito, konsensya na po. Kung sabihin na sa akin ibalik
ngayon, uutangin ko po. Babayaran ko po iyon ng P450 million po.
SEN. ANGARA.

Pero ganoon ho ba ang patakaran sa mga

junkets, talagang nagbibigay kayo ng credit doon sa mga sumusugal


ho na ganoong kalaki?
MR. WONG.

Opo, kasi po pag hindi ho namin gagawin iyon,

hindi na ako magnenegosyo ng buhay-buhay ko sa casino.

Wala na

pong magtitiwala.
SEN. ANGARA. Naintindihan ko. Naintindihan ko.
MR. WONG. Kung ngayon, sinabi di ba na ano, nakaw, ibabalik
ko po iyon, 450 po/cbg

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MR. WONG.

...450 po. Maski ibenta ko lahat ng ari-arian ko,

ibabalik ko po.
SEN. ANGARA. Opo. Ang hindi ho nababanggit pa yata, kung
hindi ako nagkakamali, Mr. Chair, alam na natin saan napunta iyong
pera, pero dito ho, for example, iyong 550 million natalo doon sa
Solaire--Solaire ho ba iyon, sa Solaire natalo?
MR. WONG. Hindi po, sa Midas po.
SEN. ANGARA. Sa Midas?
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. ANGARA. Magkano ang kinita ninyo ho doon?
MR. WONG.

Kasi junket po iyon.

Iyong mga junket ho

kumikita. Actually po, sir, itong negosyo namin napakahirap po. Kami
ho ang nagpapautang, naniningil pa ho kami, kami pa ang nagdadala
ng player, bihira ho ang taong nakakaintindi. Akala mo napakadaling
kumita ng pera diyan sa casino.
SEN. ANGARA. Opo.
MR. WONG. At saka ito, ganitong pera hindi ko gagawin ito kasi
malaki pa ang negosyo ko po kaysa dito.
SEN. ANGARA. Opo.
MR. WONG. Opo.

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SEN. ANGARA.

Pero kasi ayon doon sa testimonya ni Mr.

Manalastas ng Pagcor, iyong junket operator kumikita whether manalo


o matalo iyong sumusugal.
MR. WONG. Hindi po, mali po iyon.
SEN. ANGARA. I-explain nyo po.
MR. WONG.

Ang junket operator ho, pag junket operator

kumikita ho pag nanalo.

Pag natalo, kasama din siya sa talo.

Ang

junket agent ho kumikita ho sa commission. Umiikot iyong pera.


SEN. ANGARA.

So, hindi kayo kumikita pagka natatalo ho

iyong ano ninyo?


MR. WONG. Hindi, pag natatalo iyong player, kumikita ho ako,
junket operator ako.
SEN. ANGARA. Hindi, paano kayo kumikita ho, pag nanalo ho
iyong sumusugal?
MR. WONG.

Kasi pag nanalo ang bangka po, kami po iyon,

kaya junket operator po.


SEN. ANGARA. Ah.
MR. WONG. Junket agent, nangongomisyon lang po.
SEN. ANGARA. So, you win as the casino operator?

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MR. WONG.

Hindi, sir, for example ho nasa Solaire kumuha

kang isang kuwarto po, kuha kang isang kuwarto, kumuha kang
sampung mesa, ang share ng sa Solaire po is 52.5 sa Solaire. Kami
po, 47.5. So, pag nanalo kaming isang milyon, sa kanya iyong 52.5,
sa Solaire. Sa amin po ang 47.5. Iyan ang sharing po pero kami po
ang nagbabayad ng commission, kami ang nagbabayad ng hotel nila,
kami ang nagbabayad ng ticket nila po.
SEN. ANGARA.

So, kumikita kayo pag natatalo ho iyong

sumusugal po?
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. ANGARA. Kasi sabi ninyo nga, in your words, kayo iyong
bangka.
MR. WONG. Opo, pero sagot din ho namin pag natalo po, kami
po din ang magbabayad sa Solaire.
SEN. ANGARA. Okay.
SEN. ENRILE. Sino ba ang bangka?
MR. WONG. Kung junket po, dalawa ang bangka po, Solaire ho
at saka iyong junket operator po.
SEN. ENRILE. Sa junket, sino ang bangka?
MR. WONG. Solaire po at saka kami po.

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SEN. ENRILE. Solaire or Midas or casino owner? Sila ba ang


bangka o iyong kuwan, iyong junket operator na nagdala noong mga
junket dito o kagaya mo, Mr. Kim, operator ka.
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. ENRILE. Ngayon, sino ang bangka, ikaw o iba?
MR. WONG. Kumporme po. Pag naglaro po sa Solaire, let us
say, sa Solaire po 47.5 percent ang bangka ko. Ang 52.5 ang bangka
ni Solaire.
SEN. ENRILE.

Ah, ang ibig sabihin noon magkasama kayo,

partner kayo ng Solaire sa money down, huh?


MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. ENRILE. Pag manalo itong pera ninyo, iyong pinanalunan
ninyo...
MR. WONG. Fifty-two point five sa Solaire po.
SEN. ENRILE. Fifty-two point five sa Solaire.
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. ENRILE. Forty-seven point five-MR. WONG. Forty-seven point five sa akin po.
SEN. ENRILE. Kayo ang bangka?
MR. WONG. Opo, kaming dalawa po ang bangka.

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SEN. ENRILE.

Kayo ang bangka.

Iyong nagdadala dito nung

mga players iyon ang operator?


MR. WONG. Hindi, siya ang ahente ho, commissioner ho.
SEN. ENRILE. Ahente.
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. ENRILE. Kayo ang operator?
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. ENRILE. And bangka at the same time?
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. ENRILE. Okay.
SEN. ANGARA. Salamat, Senator Enrile.
Patuloy ko na lang po, Mr. Chair.
So, sabi nga ni Mr. Manalastas whether win or lose, kumikita
iyong ahente. So, na-establish na ho natin na kapag natatalo po ang
high roller, kumikita po kayo as bangka nga, ika nga.

Pero kapag

nananalo naman ho iyong sumusugal o iyong high roller, kumikita din


ho ba kayo?
MR. WONG. Umiiyak po.
SEN. ANGARA. Hindi kayo kumikita?

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MR. WONG. Kasi bangka po kami. Nananalo siya, umiiyak po


kami.
SEN. ANGARA.

Oo nga, pero hindi kayo binibigyan ng

komisyon o balato o ano?


MR. WONG. Wala po. Ahente po ang nagdala.
SEN. ANGARA. So, mali iyong sinabi ni Mr. Manalastas?
MR. WONG. Iba iyong agent, iba iyong operator, iba po iyong-iba-iba. Kaya tanungin nyo po, iba-iba po.
SEN. ANGARA. Ah, so depende sa arrangement.
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. ANGARA. So, in your case, hindi kayo ho kumikita kapag
nananalo ho iyong dinadala ninyo?
MR. WONG. Opo, operator po kami, bangka po kami, operator
po.
SEN. ANGARA. Okay. So, doon sa Solaire, 52.5 ang Solaire,
47.5. How about doon sa Eastern Hawaiian kasi kayo din po ang mayari ho noon, hindi ba?
MR. WONG. Opo. Ang Eastern Hawaii iba ang setup.
SEN. ANGARA. Paano iyong setup doon ho?

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MR. WONG.

Kasi po sa Solaire po, ang setup kasi sa Solaire

lahat ng dealer, lahat ng supervisor, lahat po gastos ng Solaire pati


lugar ho sa Solaire po iyon.
SEN. ANGARA. Tapos na tayo sa Solaire, sa Midas ho-MR. WONG. Sa Midas po, iba po.
SEN. ANGARA. Sa Eastern Hawaii ho.
MR. WONG.

Sa Eastern Hawaiian po umuupa ho kami,

nagbabayad po kami sa PIKI po ng kinukuha niya sa amin ho 26


percent.

So, nagsa-sublease lang ho ako sa PIKI.

Sila po diretso

kausap sa Pagcor ho. So, iyong dealer, big boss(?), lahat po sa akin
iyon, gastos ko po iyon.
SEN. ANGARA. So, 26.5 ang kinikita nyo, percent?
MR. WONG. Hindi.
SEN. ANGARA. So, magkano ang kita nyo ho?
MR. WONG.

Twenty-six percent po ang binabayaran ko pong

tax, gross po.


SEN. ANGARA.

Uh-huh.

So, lahat ng kita ho ng Eastern

Hawaiian sa inyo ho napupunta iyon pag natatalo ho iyong-MR. WONG. Opo.


SEN. ANGARA. Sa inyo, hundred percent po?

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MR. WONG. Hindi po, magbabayad po ako ng 26 percent tapos


iyong mga ahente po babayaran ko, bawas ko po doon.
SEN. ANGARA.

Ah, sino iyong ahente, iyon iyong nagdadala

noong mga gambler?


MR. WONG. Opo, marami po ako.
SEN. ANGARA. Ang tawag ba sa kanila junket operator din ho?
MR. WONG. Hindi, junket agent.
SEN. ANGARA. Junket agent.
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. ANGARA.

Iyong junket operator iyon po iyong casino,

iyon iyong bangka?


MR. WONG. Kami po iyon, ako po iyon. Opo.
SEN. ANGARA. Okay. So, mas malaki ang kita ninyo dito sa
Eastern Hawaiian kaysa sa Solaire?
MR. WONG. Medyo, medyo po.
SEN. ANGARA. Mas malaki. Magkano ang kinita ninyo?
MR. WONG. Pero malaki ang overhead.
SEN. ANGARA. Magkano ang kinita ninyo dito sa 550 million na
natalo ho?
You made 47.5 percent of P550 million ho?

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MR. WONG.

Hindi ko pa po tinitingnan kasi iba ho ang

nagpapatakbo po.
SEN. ANGARA. Okay.
MR. WONG. Hindi ho ako nakikialam po diyan.
SEN. ANGARA. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I am done with my questions.
THE CHAIRMAN. Senator Enrile.
SEN. ENRILE. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
You know, Mr. Chair, we have been hearing this case for three
days now and I have no problem about that. My problem is we have
asked all the questions already here about how the money was
divided, was washed and so forth. The question is, how much of this
money remained in the country and how much money was taken out of
the country.

I raised that question because that is pertinent with

respect to who are the hackers that we must guard against. They are
intruding into our system, financial system and I think we should have
a sense of worry about that.

We have not uncovered and obviously

Philrem is not the hacker, Mr. Kim Wong is not the hacker, according
to the evidence so far, neither is RCBC.
government

like

our

government,

We have the victim, a

country

like

our

country,

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Bangladesh.

Who are the hackers and who are their agents that

brought out the money that pertained to the hackers and their backers
outside of the country?

Are we going to investigate that?

Are we

going to uncover that? Are we going to legislate on that? Now, did


the Central Bank find out how the money got out of the country if
there was money out of this $81 million getting out of the country?
What has the Money Laundering Council done to find out if so much of
this money left the country and if there was a balance that did not,
what happened to that balance? We are going around.../hsg

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SEN. ENRILE.

We are going around and around and around

who got a piece of this cake. But we do not know who prepared the
cake, how it was baked, and whether it is going to cause some more
problems for the country in the future. And we need to legislate on
this.
So can any of the people in the government answer this
question? Do we have any idea who were the hackers?
THE CHAIRMAN.
MR. ESPENILLA.

Governor Espenilla?
Mr. Chairman, we have no ideas as to who

perpetrated the cybercrime because it was committed overseas.


SEN. ENRILE.
Will

you

What is that again?

please

speak

louder?

Because

although

this

representation is the youngest senator, he is hard of hearing and


seeing.
MR. ESPENILLA.

I am sorry, Mr. Chairman.

I said that we have no idea as to who


SEN. ENRILE.

Until today, you have no idea?

MR. ESPENILLA.
SEN. ENRILE.

But, Mr. Chairman

How about AMLC?

THE CHAIRMAN.

Ms. Julia Abad?

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MS. ABAD.

Your Honor, from all the circumstances, it would

appear that the hacking happened outside the Philippines and


SEN. ENRILE.

What is that again? Will you speak slowly and

clearly to me?
MS. ABAD.

It appears, Your Honor, that hacking happened

outside the Philippinesnot here in the Philippines. So it is beyond


the
SEN. ENRILE.
MS. ABAD.

Yes. But are you not interested to find out?

It would be interesting to know, Your Honor, how it

was committed and who committed it. But it is no longer within our
jurisdiction to investigate that aspect, Your Honor, the hacking aspect.
SEN. ENRILE.
MS. ABAD.

Why not?

Because it happened in another jurisdiction, Your

Honor, we dont have authority or jurisdiction to investigate that party,


Your Honor.
SEN. ENRILE.

Who should investigate the hacking aspect of

this and the money flow


MS. ABAD.

I would like to believe, Your Honor

SEN. ENRILE.

in and out of the country?

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MS. ABAD.

I believe, Your Honor, that the Bangladesh

government has requested assistance from the US government to look


into this or to investigate into the hacking.
SEN. ENRILE.

How about the Philippine government, have

they taken any initiative to ask the Chinese government to identify Mr.
Ding Zhize and Mr. Gao and all the caboodles that are gambling here?
Have you taken the initiative to involve the diplomatic service to ask
their counterpart?
MS. ABAD.

We havent

SEN. ENRILE.
MS. ABAD.

This is the broader aspect of this problem.


Yes, sir. We havent done that precisely because

we just learned of these things only recently or just now. But with this
information coming in, well try to find out, Your Honor. Well try to
gather more information pertaining to these persons, Your Honor.
SEN. ENRILE.

Have you taken any step to check the

characters that were mentioned by Mr. Kim Wong here and all the
names bandied around?
MS. ABAD.

No.

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SEN. ENRILE.

We are talking about internal problems and

pointing at each other at who is to be blamed and who must go to jail.


But we are not protecting the interest of the country.
I am interested in protecting the country and the integrity of its
systems including our diplomatic relations with other countries.
Because right now, I think, they think of this country as a weak link in
the international financial system.
Three days, we have been talking here. Im listening. But these
basic issues are not touched.

That is why when Mr.I will tell you,

when Mr. KimI asked him and it entered my mind that maybe, Mr.
Ding, is the center of the whole thing. Do you agree? Do you disagree?
Or do you not give any importance of these names?
MS. ABAD.

We are considering, Your Honor, that

SEN. ENRILE.

we see pointing at each other, this bank, that

bank, this agent, that agent, this sugarol, that sugarol, what is that?
We know that already. We have internal laws but they have broken it
through a new technology that perhaps was an ABC to the hackers but
it is very esoteric to us.
Now, I am addressing this to you because you are a part of this
present government. What has that government done to be concerned

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about this problem and to mobilize the machinery of this government


to protect itself and to protect other states from being victimized?
MS. ABAD.

Your Honor, this discovery would perfectly

demonstrate the fact that the non-inclusion of the casino sector in the
coverage of the AMLA is a big gap in our anti-money laundering
regime. Had the casino sector been included in the coverage of the
AMLA, probably all these transactions by the junket operators
SEN. ENRILE.
MS. ABAD.

Correct. You dont point to

with the casino would have been reported to us.

SEN. ENRILE.

Dont point to Congress. We have established

the laws for you to execute, you have enough powers.


Stop blaming Congress! Blame the people who controlled the
House of Representatives because they were the ones who removed
the provision that I introduced at least to bring the casino operation
under the ambit of the AMLA. And you are a part of the administration,
right now.
Now, you tell me. What has this government done to come into
the picture, except for you to appear here, to really go to the bottom
of this national problem? Answer.

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MS. ABAD.

Your Honors, since the Bangladesh government has

requested assistance from us, from the Central Bank of the Philippines,
from the AMLC to recover their money
SEN. ENRILE.

They have asked for assistance from whom?

MS. ABAD.

Your Honor, the Bangladesh government has

requested
SEN. ENRILE.

I am talking about the Philippine government of

the republic incorporated of the Philippines.


MS. ABAD.

Your Honor, the Bangko Sentral ng Pilipinas and

the AMLC are part of the government of the Philippines. And since the
Bangladesh government has requested assistance both from the
Bangko Sentral ng Pilipinas and the Anti-Money Laundering Council,
then that is what we are doing right now. We are trying to identify
where all these stolen funds have gone.
SEN. ENRILE.

Have you identified where the rest of the

money went? We stopped at the casinos, okay?


MS. ABAD.

Yes, Your Honor.

SEN. ENRILE.

How about the outward flow of the money? Did

the money remain in the country? Is it stillmoney has no earmark.

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But is the bulk of the 81 million still in the country or it has passed
through our banking system and out of the Philippines?
MS. ABAD.

Your Honor, there is no way for us to know where

the junket operators brought the money.


SEN. ENRILE.

Dont tell me that, my dear. That is an excuse.

I am talking about the money laundering council, how it is operating.


You have the law. If that is all you can do, I dont know what is going
to happen.
MS. ABAD.

Your Honor, please.

There is an admission from one of our resource persons that big


part of these money went to the junket operators.
SEN. ENRILE.
MS. ABAD.

Yes.
And it would appear that the money is still with

them. But we dont have information


SEN. ENRILE.

So the junket operator, how did the junket

operator moved that money from the Philippine banking system and
out of it?
MS. ABAD.

Your Honor, that is what I am saying. We do not

have a way to know that because they are not reporting to the AMLC.
Their transactions are not reported to the ALMC precisely because they

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are not covered persons. They are not covered by the provisions of the
AMLA and they have no obligations to report their transactions to the
AMLC, Your Honor.
SEN. ENRILE.

Then I ask the Central Bank, dont you have

enough power to determine how this money flowed out?


MS. ABAD.

Under the present setup, we dont have power to

do that, Your Honor, because they are not covered by the AMLA, Your
Honor.
SEN. ENRILE.

So you are saying you are powerless. What

kind of power do you further need? Include the casinos?


MS. ABAD.

That has been the relief/mjp

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MS. ABAD. the relief that we are seeking, Your Honor.


SEN. ENRILE. No. I am asking you a pointed question because
I will not be here anymore. But I am asking you what will the future
Congress do? How will they craft the law? You have the experience
now. You are the executors of the law. You know your deficiencies,
you know your weaknesses. Tell us, include the casinos. Is that your
solution?
MS. ABAD. Yes, Your Honor. Include the casino in the coverage
of the law and require the casino operators including the junket
operators to comply with the obligations provided under the law which
include

customer

identification,

record-keeping

and

reporting

of

suspicious and covered transactions, Your Honor.


SEN. ENRILE. You better start crafting the law that you want
so that you will have no excuses in the future.
MS. ABAD.

For the record, Your Honor, there are already

pending bills which we filed with the Sixteenth Congress and I think
that is a perfect draft for the inclusion of the casino in the coverage of
the law. So, I think if this present Congress wont be able to approve
the pending bills, probably the next Congress, we will propose the
same bill for consideration of the Congress, Your Honor.

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SEN. ENRILE.

How soon do you think can the government

uncover the nationality of the hackers?


MS. ABAD. I have to admit, Your Honor, that I cannot tell. I
thinkI understand that the Federal Bureau of Investigation is doing
the investigation on that, Your Honor.
SEN. ENRILE.

Just a minute.

crime group in Malacaang.

You have your transnational

You have the National Bureau of

Investigation, you have the Central BankBangko Sentralyou have


the Anti-Money Laundering Council power, you have all the kinds of
agencies involved in this. What more do you need? Only the inclusion
of casinos in your AMLA?

Thats the only way you can protect the

country?
MR. DOOC. Mr. Chairman, this is Manny Dooc of the council.
Mr. Chairman, Your Honors, I would like to inform the committee
that we have started our discussion with the local Chinese Embassy
yesterday.

Since we have just gathered additional information

concerning the junkets plus the names mentioned by Mr. Kim Wong,
we will pursue this meeting with them.

Unfortunately, China does not

have the counterpart of Anti-Money Laundering Council.

In other

countries as well as in other jurisdictions, there are existing financial

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intelligence units which we can correspond and consult with, even


exchange information provided we have entered into a memorandum
of understanding.

Unfortunately, that does not exist with respect to

China, sir.
SEN. ENRILE. Do you think China will condone operations like
these by their people? Is that your assumption? Dont you know that
gambling in China is prohibited? And if you write their prime minister
and plead with him to check the background of Mr. Ding and Mr. Gao,
they will probably be interested to find out who these people are who
are gambling in the Philippines.
MR. DOOC. Yes, Your Honor. We are thankful for that cue.
SEN. ENRILE. Do you want?
MR. DOOC. Yes.
SEN. ENRILE.

Why are you waiting for a humble senator to

suggest to you how to run this country?

This was simple.

Do your

jobs.
MR. DOOC.

Well definitely take action along that line, Your

Honors.

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SEN. ENRILE. But how many hours have passed since February
5 and you are still thinking about the action you are going to do. Is
that the degree of efficiency of government that we should claim?
MR. DOOC.

Mr. Chairman, we just collected this information

very recently, in fact, I think, from the report of the casinos, which we
received yesterday about these junket operators and players. And this
is further reinforced by the testimony given to us by Mr. Wong and we
are thankful for this development.
SEN. ENRILE. You did not believe the sworn testimony of the
people talking here for three days, for two days at least before this
day?

This is our third hearing.

You did not believe the sworn

testimonies going around in this room? All this time you have to wait
for Mr. Kim to come here and tell us these things only to be shocked
that after all, hes not, according to his narration of facts, he was not
the one the center of the game but only a part player. Then he was
the one who mentioned the two names, Mr. Gao and Mr. Ding, that
even before you heard those names, you have the name, Mr. Weikang
Xu. You could have at least sent a communication who is Mr. Weikang
Xu in China, what province does he come from, what region of China,
is he a member of the Politburo or what?

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Thank you, Mr. Chairman.


MR. DOOC. Thank you, sir.
THE CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Senator.
Senator Osmea.
SEN. OSMEA. Quick questions, Mr. Chairman.
Just to clarify, Mr. Wong, hindi ba maraming levels ng gambling
junkets nandiyan?

May minimum bet ng P25,000, minimum bet ng

P10,000, minimum bet ng P1,000.

Ano ang tawag mo diyan sa

division na iyon? What do you call that?


MR. WONG.

Pagka-junket po na pag sinabi hong junket,

kailangan nasa P25,000 below per bet.


SEN. OSMEA. Kung above P25,000, ano? Teka muna.
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. OSMEA. Iyong operation ninyo sa Solaire, magkanong
minimum doon?
MR. WONG. Twenty-five thousand po.
SEN. OSMEA. Minimum?
MR. WONG.

Opo.

P200,000 po minimum.

Pero iyong naglaro, dati po ito si Gao,


Kasi po pagkaGanito po, sir, sorry po.

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Iyong pag P25,000 minimum, ang maximum po P1 million o 1.5.


Pagka-P200,000 po, P5 million.
SEN. OSMEA. Times 40.
MR. WONG. Opo. Pag P200,000 po, P5 million maximum.
SEN. OSMEA. Okay. So, sine-segregate iyan, hindi ba, iyong
mga
MR. WONG.

Hindi.

Kumporme po sa check-in ng pera.

Kunyari, today maglalaro si Wan.


SEN. OSMEA. Hindi, hindi. Tinanong kanina ng isang senador
bakit nagbukas ang Pagcor ng ibang casino sa Midas in competition
with Solaire. Ang sagot po diyan, mas mababa ho ang minimum bet
sa Midas. So, ito pala. May tawag diyan, eh.
MR. WONG. Opo. Pero pagka
SEN. OSMEA. Teka muna. Sagutin mo muna ako. What do
you call those levels?
MR. WONG.

Wala po.

Junket pa rin po.

Junket pa rin po.

Kaya lang po
SEN. OSMEA.

Ano ang diprensya sa P25,000, P200,000,

P1,000?
MR. WONG. Opo, opo. /. . .(nam)

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MR. WONG. ... Opo. Opo. Kasi po pagka nasa Soloire, hindi
ba, napakaganda po.
SEN. OSMEA. Oo.
MR. WONG. So parangmaraming player, maarte po, hindi ba?
Kapag dinala mo po sa Midas, hindi ba, hindi naman-SEN. OSMEA. Simple lang.
MR. WONG. Mahirap sabihin po. Pero tignan nyo naman, iyong
casino po ng Solaire at saka Midas ang laki ng diperensya po.
SEN. OSMEA.

Kaya nga, pino-point out mo nga kangina na

hindi nagko-compete iyan. Kasi iyong mga iba low rollers.


MR. WONG.

Opo. Medyo mababa po ang customer po namin

para po--iyong mga ibang player po naming papuntang Solaire medyo


maganda ang suot, pag dito naman medyo alam mo na iyon sa Midas-SEN. OSMEA. Hindi bale na ang suot, nasa pustahan iyan.
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. OSMEA.

Maski naka-jeans ako tatanggapin ako sa

Solaire basta may $10 million ako na ipupusta, hindi ba?


MR. WONG.

Opo.

Opo.

Pero ganoon kasi ang distinction.

Syempre pag pupunta ka sa Solaire ang ganda ng hotel, medyo malaki


ang customer.

Pag pupunta ka sa Midas, hindi ba iyong tulugan po

hindi namanso nakikita na po iyong player, iyong balance mo.

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SEN. OSMEA. Okay. So kaya they are not in competition with


each other kasi iyong Solaire they get the higher rollers, Midas gets
the low rollers.
MR. WONG. Opo. Parang ganoon po ang ano po.
SEN. OSMEA. Ngayon, iyong paggamit ng dead chips, anong
advantage ng casino diyan? Mukang advantage lang sa accounting ng
junket operator and junket agent, hindi ba?
MR. WONG. Oo, agent lang po.
SEN. OSMEA. Huh?
MR. WONG. Sa agent po. Sa agent po.
SEN. OSMEA. Sa agent lang?
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. OSMEA. Okay.
MR. WONG. Kasi iyon pong nakakaakit-SEN. OSMEA. The casino doesnt care about dead chips?
MR. WONG. Wala po. Wala po.
SEN. OSMEA.

Ngayon, kung kasabwat ng agent, ng money

launderer, di hindi iimik iyong agent.

Hindi siya maghahanap ng

player kasi money laundered iyan, talagang dapat pasok-labas lang,


hindi ba?
MR. WONG. Opo. Pero kailangang itaya po iyong pera po.

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SEN. OSMEA. Huh?


MR. WONG.

Iyong dead chips po itaya para maging live chips

po. Hindi ho maka-cash iyong dead chips po.


SEN. OSMEA. Alam ko iyon.
MR. WONG. Opo. Opo, sir.
SEN. OSMEA. Pero that will be eventually cashed. Kasi dapat
mag-agree ang junket agent.
MR. WONG. Opo. Opo.
SEN. OSMEA. Halimbawa lang.
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. OSMEA. Nagdala tayo ng one million dollars doon.
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. OSMEA. Mayroon akong junket agent, hindi ba?
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. OSMEA.

Sinugal ko.

Tapos at the end of one week

breakeven lang ako. Breakeven.


MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. OSMEA. Di makukuha ko din iyong one million ko, hindi
ba? Hindi na dead chip na iyon, cashable chip na iyon.
MR. WONG. Hindi po. Kasi-SEN. OSMEA. Teka muna, puhunan ko iyon.

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MR. WONG. Opo.


SEN. OSMEA. Unless ikaw ang nag-advance ng pera sa akin.
MR. WONG.

Hindi, kasi po iyong kung manalo po siya

makukuha iyong cash po.


SEN. OSMEA. Hindi. Hindi ko sinasabi iyon. At the end of the
trip, Kim.
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. OSMEA. Tapos na. Naka-one week na ako sa Midas, for
example. May dead chip, hindi ako makakalabas. But after the end of
one week, nag break even ako, gusto ko nang umuwi sa China, pwede
ko nang kunin iyong pera ko.
MR. WONG. Pwede po. May isang paraan po, yong six time mo
iyong roll. For example, one million mo po.
SEN. OSMEA.

Okay.

Six times.

Sinix (six) times ko iyon.

So I bet six times.


MR. WONG. You can get that cash po.
SEN. OSMEA. Okay.
MR. WONG. For example, one million-SEN. OSMEA.

Ang sinasabi ko lang I can get the cashout at

the end as long as I followas long as I obey the conditions?


MR. WONG. Opo. Iyong six times for roll.

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SEN. OSMEA. Okay.


MR. WONG. Okay po.
SEN. OSMEA.

All right.

May puhunan ako ng one million

dollars, on the first day nagiging 1.5 million, pwede ko nang i-cash
iyong 500,000?
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. OSMEA. Pwede ko nang iuwi iyon?
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. OSMEA. All right. Ngayon, natalo ako the following day
ng 500,000, hindi pa ako makakauwi kasi hindi pa ako nakaka-six
times?
MR. WONG. Yes, po. Opo.
SEN. OSMEA. At the end of the week, naka-six times na ako,
natalo ako ng 500,000, maka-cash ko iyong remaining 500,000.
MR. WONG. Opo, pag-six times mo na roll.
SEN. OSMEA.

So ang condition nito ay nasa junket agent,

hindi ho sa casino?
MR. WONG. Hindi ho.
SEN. OSMEA.

So this is only for the accounting of the junket

agent, hindi ba?

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MR. WONG. Opo. Para po iyong accounting po para magkano


po iyong commission niya po everytime po.
SEN. OSMEA.

Okay.

All right.

So therefore, hindi pwede

sabihin na hindi pwedeng i-launder sa casino kasi dead chips iyan. No,
hindi pwede iyan.

Kasi pag kasabwat mo iyong junket agent, he

doesnt care if you gamble six times or not, hindi ba?


MR. WONG.

Hindi po, nakikita po sa computer iyong taya po.

Umiikot po iyong pera po.


SEN. OSMEA.

Hindi, teka muna.

Kung hindi mag-complain

ang junket agent, hindi ko kailangan mag six times roll over. I dont
even have to bet.
MR. WONG. Maari po.
SEN. OSMEA. Huh?
MR. WONG. Maari po.
SEN. OSMEA. Okay. Halimbawa, pumasok ako doon may one
million dollars ako, sasabihin ko sa junket agent, Ito na iyong 100,000
mo, i-cash mo ulit iyong nine?
MR. WONG. Possible po lahat, sir. Possible po lahat.
SEN. OSMEA. Hindi lang possible, doable, hindi ba?
MR. WONG. Siguro po.

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SEN. OSMEA. Syempre ako naglo-launder ng pera, hindi ba?


Di magbabayad ako ng komisyon.

Ayaw ko namang isugal iyan,

idinadaan ko lang sa casino para masasabi ko na, Uy, nanalo ako sa


casino. In that way, it takes on a patina of legitimacy and the dirty
money now becomes clean money, hindi ba?
MR. WONG. Opo.
SEN. OSMEA. Okay. Let me ask some questions to Philrem.
Philrem, you encashed about how much, dollars lang, total?
MS. BAUTISTA. Eighteen, Your Honor.
SEN. OSMEA. Eighteen. Of the 18, you said that five million
was given to Kim Wong, or at least Kim Wong, Mr. Kim Wong says he
received five?
MS. BAUTISTA. I gave all 18 to Weikang Xu.
SEN. OSMEA.

Okay.

Now the 18, which bank issued the

dollars, the cash?


MS. BAUTISTA. Sir, iba-ibang bank po. But I can-SEN. OSMEA.

Okay.

Would you like to submit to the

Committee the banks which gave you the dollars?


MS. BAUTISTA. Your Honor, will it just be for the Committee or
will it be a public document or-SEN. OSMEA. It can be for the Committee.

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MS. BAUTISTA. Okay, Your Honor, we will.


SEN. OSMEA. And would you like to furnish the Committee
kasi pag ang bangko nag-i-issue niyan, they copy all the serial
numbers, hindi ba?
MS. BAUTISTA. Your Honor, hindi ho lahat ng bangko.
SEN. OSMEA. Hindi lahat ng bangko?
MS. BAUTISTA. Oho. Iyong may anonagre-require ng serial
number.
SEN. OSMEA. Mr. Tan, if somebody through your bank is able
to encash, say, a million dollars, you do keep copies of the serial
number of the dollars, right?
MR. L. TAN. Yes, they jot all the serial numbers.
SEN. OSMEA. Okay. And so therefore we can go back to you
and say, Can you give me a list of the serial numbers?
MR. L. TAN. Over-the-counter transactions, they keep a record
of the serial numbers.
SEN. OSMEA.

Is there any other type of transaction that is

not over the counter?


MR. L. TAN. Sir, can you ask
MR. R. TAN. Your Honor, for bulk deliveries, the serial numbers
are not taken.

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SEN. OSMEA. Are not?


MR. R. TAN. No, sir.
SEN. OSMEA. Doesnt the Bangko Sentral require?
MR. ESPENILLA.

No, Your Honor.

That is a bank decision

whether they would want to jot down the serial numbers, Mr.
Chairman, for their own protection.
SEN. OSMEA. Okay. Now, example, if somebody wanted an
enormous amount of cash, like $10, $15 million, I dont think RCBC
would have $15 million dollars in cash lying around, hindi ba? All right.
From whom would they source that?

Would they be able to go to the

Bangko Sentral? Yes, no, maybe, what?


MR. R. TAN. No, Your Honor.
SEN. OSMEA.

So you will have to do it through the money

changers?
MR. R. TAN. Money changers, maybe from other banks as well.
SEN. OSMEA. Today, you got the bank and you got the nonbanks like the remittance companies.

In terms of foreign exchange,

anong sharing niyan sa market, is it already 50-50?


MR. R. TAN. What do you mean, Your Honor?

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SEN. OSMEA.

The volume of dollars or pesos exchanged for

foreign denominations, what do you believe the market to be like at


this time?
MR. R. TAN.

Well, there is the notes exchange; there are the

retail exchange that is small.


SEN. OSMEA. It doesnt have to be note. Anything.../smv

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SEN. OSMEA.

Anything.

MR. R. TAN. The big transactions actually happen between the


banks and then you have the exporters and then the bulk remittances.
So, I would say, probably the bulk would be from exports, Your Honor.
SEN. OSMEA. We are talking of what, the foreign exchange
market.
MR. R. TAN. Yes, sir.
SEN. OSMEA. All right. How many percent do you think the
banks enjoy?
MR. R. TAN. I wouldnt have the
SEN. OSMEA. So, you dont have the total picture?
MR. R. TAN. No, Your Honor.
SEN. OSMEA. Would the Bangko Sentral have that?
MR. ESPENILLA.

No, Mr. Chairman. The volume of dollar

trades outside the banking system is also not visible to the Bangko
Sentral, so we dont have numbers for that, Mr. Chairman.
SEN. OSMEA. Dont you want numbers for that?
MR. ESPENILLA.

Yes, Mr. Chairman. We want to understand

better the size of that market and considering the discussion here, it
seems to be already a fairly deep market because the transactions are
large.

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SEN. OSMEA. Yes, I understand. Its about 50 percent. And


as a matter of fact, because the Bangko Sentral regulates the formal
side, its the informal side that benefits because they haveregulation.
Am I correct?
MR. ESPENILLA.

Thats one possibility, Mr. Chairman. So,

there is a policy issue here.


SEN. OSMEA. Possibility or probability?
MR. ESPENILLA. Well, Mr. Chairman, since theres still currency
controls that are in place today, so it happens that some of these
transactions could not be sourced from the formal banking system
because of restrictions are being done outside of the banking system.
SEN. OSMEA.

You did not answer my question. I wanted

estimates of the volume enjoyed by each, formal, informal.


MR. ESPENILLA. I would really be guessing, Mr. Chairman, if
I
SEN. OSMEA. Yes, give me a guess. We wont hold you to it.
You wont go to jail. You wont be cited for contempt.
MR. ESPENILLA. No, Mr. Chairman, its just that I want to be
to be accurate but if I were to guess, Mr. Chairman, the informal
market is maybe about 30-40 percent.
SEN. OSMEA. And growing?

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MR. ESPENILLA.

Possibly, because the economy is growing,

Mr. Chairman.
SEN. OSMEA. Or probably? You know, anything is possible.
MR. ESPENILLA. The economy is certainly growing, therefore
its probable.
SEN. OSMEA. All right.
All right. I think Ill suspend my questions.
Thank you, Governor.
THE CHAIRMAN.

Okay. A few administrative matters. Ms.

Bautista, you have undertaken to produce your messenger next


hearing and also the documents related to the sourcing of the $18
million from the banks.
Lastly, I would like to comment on the statement of Mr. Benny
Tan of Solaire where he saidpreviously it has been said that casinos
are a black hole and you know, the past two hearings, all we know is
that the funds went to the casinos. Right now, this is the first time the
hearing that we have an official report from casino and I would say I
am pleasantly surprised that they did freeze funds in the amount of
P107 million and they did not only froze, they confiscated some of the
funds of around P1.3 million. And so, unlike other institutions, you
have shown more resolve in applying the money laundering laws of

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COMMITTEE ON ACCOUNTABILITY OF PUBLIC OFFICERS AND


INVESTIGATIONS (BLUE RIBBON)
RPALGER
XI-3
March 29, 2016
6:00 p.m.
4

this country in spite of you not being covered. So, I am pleasantly


surprised and you should be commended.
MR. S. TAN. Thank you, Your Honor.
THE CHAIRMAN.

Okay. Our next hearing will be April 5,

Tuesday at 10:30 a.m.


Thank you everyone.
Until April 5, Tuesday, this hearing is hereby suspended.

[THE HEARING WAS SUSPENDED AT 6:04 P.M.]/rommel

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