URBAN BLUE COLLAR POLYGYNY IN THE USA TODAY Is Polygyny Sexist and an Exploitation of Women?

FROM OBJECTIONS TO BIBLICAL AND GODLY POLYGYNY, CONCUBINES, & JESUS; Another Look for Christians. COPYRIGHT © JANUARY 14, 1995 All rights reserved. Copyright © 01/14/'95; 01/12/'96, 07/26/2003, 10/03/09; 06/20/10 (Revised) This file, in its entirety, may be posted on or copied off of computer networks like Internet or WWW by anyone so inclined. By L. Tyler CA 92162-0763 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrthodoxBiblicalMarriagePolygamy http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PolyPolygamyPolygnyNJesus From: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PolyPolygamyPolygnyNJesus/files/ >>>>>>The Economics and Sociology of Polygyny From: "oldservant8" Date: Jul, 2002 Subject: expected economic role + striving for equality To:MuslimLady This discussion came up in a Yahoo economics group @yahoogroups.com >>> = A correspondent /// = oldservant8 ///You wrote->>>As, you well know, the media always exploits the pitfalls of poly relationships, especially with recent cases of welfare fraud surrounding children who are products of poly relationships, while, of course, ignoring the enormous poverty and fraud that occurs within serial monogamous relationships through divorce and unwed mothers. >>>Aside from your personal reasons for wanting a poly relationship, how do you envision your own family economically functioning as a poly unit? The number one question we have found from poly-curious single women is, what is their expected economic role in the relationship. What do you think? ///In a nutshell, I like the Biblical model the best. WEYActs 2:44 And all the believers kept together, and had everything in common. 45 They sold their lands and other property, and distributed the proceeds among all, according to every one's necessities. WEYActs 4:34 And, in fact, there was not a needy man among them, for all who were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the

money which they realised, 35 and gave it to the Apostles, and distribution was made to every one according to his wants. DBY2Cor8: 12 For if the readiness be there, a man is accepted according to what he may have, not according to what he has not. 13 For it is not in order that there may be ease for others, and for you distress, 14 but on the principle of equality; in the present time your abundance for their lack, that their abundance may be for your lack, so that there should be equality. 15 According as it is written, He who gathered much had no excess, and he who gathered little was nothing short. ///In one polygynous African tribe, the husband lives in the largest dwelling, each wife has her own littler dwelling, and the responsibilities are divided among all members, all working. Some took care of the babies, usually the last one to give birth and breast feeding. Some worked the gardens. Some took goods to market to sell. Some traveled to town to do work. All brought their gain to the family, and the family divided what they had according to each's need, striving for equality . ///In America it could take several forms. There could be the rich man who has a big six bedroom house, the husband in the master bedroom for together times with all in bed in one room, and each wife having her own bedroom, and the children having the rest. Some took care of the babies, usually the last one to give birth and breast feeding. Some worked the gardens. Some took goods to markets to sell. Some traveled to town to do work. All brought their gain to the family, and the family divided what they had according to each's need, striving for equality . ///There could be the country farmer with 100 acres, a big house and several cottages. The husband in the master bedroom for together times with all in bed in one room, and each wife having her own cottage, and the children having the rest. Some took care of the babies, usually the last one to give birth and breast feeding. Some worked the gardens and the crops. Some took goods to markets to sell. Some traveled to town to do work. All brought their gain to the family, and the family divided what they had according to each's need, striving for equality. ///Then there is average Joe Blow who has a job that barely allows him to support one wife in a small two bedroom apartment. His three other wives each have their own two bedroom apartment for themselves and their children. The husband's living room is for together times when all are in one room, one bedroom for the husband and his legal wife, and the second bedroom for the kids. I strongly recommend that the husband never be intimate with more than one of his wives at a time for numerous reasons, including the following:

1) Prov 5:19 makes it clear that at the height of sexual intimacy there is some degree of irrationality, when the body in reacting on its own and the rational mind is in the back seat and not in control. During that time if two wives are being intimate with their own man in polygyny, in their irrational passion the two women might experience the sin of bisexuality or lesbianism, which can be come an addictive sin for the ladies. 2) Most men react differently to each woman that they love. Women are so very insecure, so often wondering if they are desirable, if their man desires them, and in polygyny, if their man loves each of his wives equally. If two wives are being intimate with their own man at the same time, the man in his irrationality might say something or do something that makes one of the wives feel less loved or less desirable. Even though it might not be true that he loves one more than the other, finds one more desirable than the other, if one of his wives comes to believe that she is less loved and/or less desirable than another of his wives, she could be tempted to be grieved, be jealous, be resentful etc etc etc. This is much less likely to happen if the husband is careful to be intimate with only one wife at a time. Each wife has her own apartment & bedroom, and the children having the second bedroom. One took care of the babies, usually the last one to give birth and breast feeding. One worked at a part time job to have time to help homeschool the children. Another wife worked at the local market. One traveled to town to work as an RN. All brought their gain to the family, and the family divided what they had according to each's need, striving for equality . Anyway, that's the view from here. Peace, Ron ++++++++++++++++++Part two++++++++++++++++++++++ Date: Jul 2002 From: MuslimLady Subject: Re: expected economic role + striving for equality >>>Some of the means of achieving economic harmony listed here are quite clear and would indeed provide economic harmony within the family unit. However, the average person one causes me some concern. If the "average man" can barely support one wife and any children, who exactly would be paying the rent on the apartments of the other wives? ///It is common knowledge and all the statistics are in. The largest group in the working class of the poor is the group of working single mothers. The largest group of the working class poor with the worst record of escaping that poverty is the group of working single mothers. The largest group of working class children locked into poverty with

the worst health and education record is the group of children of working single mothers. Single mothers and their children do not do as well as mothers who have a committed male in their lives who is helping them as a family. ///How could a low income working class polygynous family make it? They would pool their net income for the expenses, as described below, and as described above in the Acts 2 & 4 & 2 Cor 8 Scriptures. >>>Would they themselves be expected to continue working in order to maintain their own residences? ///All work, even the one that stays home to breast feed the babies and care for the children, but this one doesn't get a formal paycheck from an official employer. The work of the breast feeding mother is to care for the baby or babies being breast fed, and she is paid by the pooled resources of the other members of the family who are working. >>> If this is what is envisioned by this, then this certainly sounds unfair, because then the woman gains nothing but the company of a husband and may find that she needs to rely on public assistance in order to survive economically and that defeats one of the purposes of marriage. ///Even working poor monogynous families have to sometimes receive unemployment insurance, food stamps and/or medicare. The women and children in a working poor family receiving some form of assistance in their poverty are still doing better than the working poor single mothers. The women and their children gain the love, protection, care, affection, passion and attention of a man they love passionately, a man who loves them passionately. Each wife has at least one hour alone with him every other night for intimacy and special attention. This allows each wife to have orgasmic passion three times a week without fear of HIV/ HCV/HPV. He has one hour a night with the kids. One hour a night with everybody during the dinner hour. As you see in the model below, their is no need for public cash assistance for this family of 13. >>>Otherwise, all of the cooperative options listed make sense, since each wife would bring her unique talent and gift to the marriage as a whole. oldservant8 wrote: expected economic role + striving for equality ///THE SPECIFICS OF THE John Doe FAMILY SITUATION ///Then there is average John Doe who has a job that barely allows him

to support one wife, Betty, in a small two bedroom apartment. His three other wives each have their own two bedroom apartment for themselves and their children. Their apartments are less than one mile away from each other. The husband's living room is made into a living-room-bedroom for together times, if so desired by all, with all in one large room. Because of antipolygyny laws and recent Supreme Court rulings, it is strongly advisable that the husband not be intimate with more than one wife at a time. One bedroom in is apartment would be made into a den, and the second bedroom for the kids. Each “wife” would have her own apartment & bedroom, her children having the second and or third bedroom. ///John works at Slurpo, the local soft dring company, as a union truck driver making a monthly net of $2400, working 30 hours a week. Betty works for the City as a meter reader, making a monthly net $2000 per month. Loulou took care of the babies, the last one to give birth and breast feeding. Fannie Mae works at a part time job, making a monthly net $800, to have time to help homeschool the children. The children are home schooled through the 8th grade. Daisy travels to town to work as an RN, making a monthly net $3200. All bring their gain to the family, and the family divides what they have according to each's need, striving for equality . Three of the older kids work at local restaurants and fast food outlets, making a net of $1630. Their monthly net family income is $10030. They have a total of 8 children, a family of 13 people. They all put their income into the common purse/account and in family conference decide together how the money should be spent. ///Their combined rents are $3200, in a blue collar neighborhood in So. Calif. Their food budget is $2600 per mo. They have car expenses of $1000 per month. Insurance runs $520. Medical and dental insurance for the full time and part time stay-home moms, $400. Utilities and phone runs at $160. That is an outflow of $7880. That leaves $2150 for everything else, including savings, investments. ///Because polygamy is illegal in the USA, he is legally married only to one of the “wives”, Betty, and was privately and solemnly covenanted with each of his other ladies. Loulou, Fannie Mae, Daisy. He attends Betty's pentecostal church Sunday mornings at 8:30, as her husband. He attends Loulou's AfroAm COGIC church at 10:30, as her backslidden man to avoid prosecution for polygamy. He attends FannieMae's African American Episcopalean church Sunday night, as her backslidden man, to avoid prosecution. He attends Daisy's lilly white Presbyterian church Wednesday nights, as her backslidden man, to avoid prosecution. Sunday afternoons they either barbecue at the beach or the park, where they picnic together and the children play. Anyway, that's the view from here

+++++++++++++++++Part three++++++++++++++++++++++ From: MuslimLady Date: Jul 2002 Subject: Re: expected economic role + striving for equality >>>Clearly you have thought this through - a bit too much it would appear. And in the "average man" description, assumptions are made that should not be. All of the wives are non-Muslim so would they be accepting of such an arrangement? /// I believe the following answer that question in the affirmative. www.bfree.org http://bfree.org/ http://www.3coins.com/ http://www.groups.yahoo.com/group/OrthodoxBiblicalMarriagePolygamy2 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PolyPolygamyPolygnyNJesus http://groups.google.com/group/BiblicalChristianPolygamyPolygyny >>>Also, it calls into account the need for the older children to work as well as all of the adults. /// 2 Thess 3: 10 “For also when we were with you we enjoined you this, that if any man does not like to work, neither let him eat. 11 For we hear that there are some walking among you disorderly, not working at all, but busybodies. 12 Now such we enjoin and exhort in the Lord Jesus Christ, that working quietly they eat their own bread.” 12, 13 and 14 year old children are quite capable and should have some small job/jobs by which they can earn pocket change. Older children still attending school full time should have part time jobs of ten to 15 hours a week to pay for their own entertainment, transportation, clothing etc. /// That is an outflow of $7880. That leaves $2150 for everything else, including savings, investments. >>>Assuming the figures you gave above, the average rent on each of the 4 apartments would be $800; is the car expense amount for 4 cars or 5 - I mean each wife should have her own car, right? /// Good point. There would need to be a 5th car, unless one of the wives drove JohnDoe to and from work.

>>> And utilities and phone combined are only $160 for 4 residences, that must indicate that each apartment has most of the utility amounts covered as part of the $800 rent payment (or the families are essentially living in darkness most of the time without air conditioners or even fans) ///Water and trash are included. Living in So. Calif. is cheap, given the mild Mediterranean climate. >>>and that no one uses the phone very often, especially to make long-distance calls; /// unlimited local use, email saves on the long distance calls. >>>you mentioned insurance, which I assume is car insurance, and medical and dental insurance for the wives that stay at home - what about the rest of the family? /// The legal wife is covered by her husband's insurance through employment, and the wives who work out of the house have med and life insurance through their employment. >>>I stick to my original statement, such a situation means that each wife must work in order for the family unit as a whole to survive. ///Yes, everybody works, except for the children under 12 years. >>>And if Mr. Truck Driver is attending so many different churches, how is he remaining true to his own faith? /// All of those churches have compatable core beliefs, no serious conflicts. >>>Or are you describing this as an overall economic solution for both Muslims and non-Muslims? /// It would work for anyone, except there would be so many different churches, since the Muslims at the local Mosque would probably accept the polygyny of the family. >>>Perhaps this is where my confusion comes in. ///Not aware of any confusion. oldservant8

=========================================== From: "a_human" = +++ Date: Jul 2002 Subject: Re: expected economic role + striving for equality > ///All work, even the one that stays home to breast feed the babies > and care for the children, but this one doesn't get a paycheck. +++Oh, I get it. Taking care of kids isn't REAL work. ///She doesn't get a paycheck because all of the other working members of the family put their income into the common account and money is drawn out by each according to their need and the family budget. Acts 2:44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common, 45 and sold their possessions and substance, and distributed them to all, according as any one might have need. Acts 4: 32 ¶ And the heart and soul of the multitude of those that had believed were one, and not one said that anything of what he possessed was his own, but all things were common to them; . . . 34 For neither was there any one in want among them; for as many as were owners of lands or houses, selling them, brought the price of what was sold 35 and laid it at the feet of the apostles; and distribution was made to each according as any one might have need. 2Cor8:13 For it is not in order that there may be ease for others, and for you distress, 14 but on the principle of equality; in the present time your abundance for their lack, that their abundance may be for your lack, so that there should be equality. 15 According as it is written, He who gathered much had no excess, and he who gathered little was nothing short. 2 thess 3: 10 For also when we were with you we enjoined you this, that if any man does not like to work, neither let him eat. 11 For we hear that there are some walking among you disorderly, not working at all, but busybodies. 12 Now such we enjoin and exhort in the Lord Jesus Christ, that working quietly they eat their own bread. > ///Each wife has at least one hour alone with him every > other night for intimacy and special attention. This allows each >wife to have orgasmic passion three times a week without fear of >HIV/HCV/HPV. He has one hour a night with the kids. One hour a >night with everybody during the dinner hour. +++Wow, sounds like bliss! I can't imagine why women wouldn't

JUMP at the chance of having 1 hour alone with her husband every 48 hours. /// The working class and poor single mother with no committed man has much less than that, in both quantity and quality. John Doe would spend one night of every four nights as well with each wife. Statistically John Doe's wives are have orgasmic sex two times more a week than the averge American wife. Statistically the average American couple spends much less time focused on each other than John and his wives. They are getting about twice as much conscious focused attention than the average American wives. ///The war widows and HIV widows of Africa, Afghanistan, Albania, Sudan, Ethiopia, ERitrea would thank God if they could be in and have such a family and such attention from a husband of their own. The unmarried "surplus" women of SE Asia who are economically forced into prostitution and crime would thank God if they could be in and have such a family and such attention from a husband of their own. +++The kids too would be so fortunate to see their dad for an hour a day (and share him with the rest of the brood). What could be better than this? ///The statistics in America indicate that John's kids are getting three times as much focused and conscious attention as the average American kid. The orphans of Africa, Afghanistan, Albania, Sudan, Ethiopia, ERitrea would thank God if they could be in and have such a family and such attention from a stepdad of their own. The orphans of SE Asia who are economically forced into prostitution and crime would thank God if they could be in and have such a family and such attention from a step dad of their own. The SE Asian Muslim council decreed that polygyamy was the solution for dealing with the women and widows who have no man of their own, and for orphans who have no home or family. +++++++++++++++++Part four ++++++++++++++++++++++ The debate over the low income working class John Doe and his four wives continues. /// = my responses Tyler In a message NNN@yahoogroups.com writes: << - Mar 2003 From: "V" <s@yahoo> = \\\ Subject: Re: Re:two "wives" that live in separate houses

V- Surprise, surprise, surprise, I actually agree with you about 2 Thess 3: 10-14. A man should work. In biblical terms, (I cannot remember the verses), a man is the head of the house and as such he is responsible for his family. ///According to the Bible, every member of the family is responsible for themselves and each other, with the husband serving as the teacher/advisor/leader (not boss, tyrant or dictator), the wife as his helper/advisor/assistant and as teacher of her children etc etc etc. V- Here is where I start disagreeing :-) What you described below is a man that has four separate women to choose from. ///Maybe I didn't state it clearly enough, but John Doe and his wives are committed believers and followers of Jesus Christ, and are maritally committed to each other as long as each lives. Just as he is commanded to be sexually having his wives (1Cor7:2-5;Prov5:19,20) and has sexual authority over the sexual use of their bodies (1Cor7:2-5), the wives are commanded by God to be sexually having their own husband, and have sexual authority over the sexual use of his body. They are forbidden from sexually denying each other except for prayer and fasting that is mutually agreed upon and has a time limit. Any "choosing" being done in such a family should be done according to the above. V- When there is trouble from one of the women he can go to another 'home' until the trouble blows over. ///If he is prepared to disobey Jesus and be subject to the sickness and or weakness of His chastening for disobeying Jesus. Jesus requires such a man to live wisely (1Pt3:7) with his wife/wives, and Jesus requires him to make a diligent and sincere effort restore the unity in a bond of peace (Eph 4:1-5). His mission is described as follows: 2Tm2:24* And a bondman of the Lord ought not to contend, but be gentle towards all; apt to teach; forbearing; 25* in meekness setting right those who oppose, if God perhaps may sometime give them repentance to acknowledgment of the truth, 26 and that they may awake up out of the snare of the devil, who are taken by him, for *his* will. Eph4: 1 ¶ *I*, the prisoner in the Lord, exhort you therefore to walk worthy of the calling wherewith ye have been called, 2 ¶ with all lowliness and meekness, with long-suffering, bearing with one another in love; 3 using diligence to keep the unity of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace. ///Just as he is commanded to be sexually having his wives (1Cor7:2-5;Prov5:19,20) and has sexual authority over the sexual use of their bodies (1Cor7:2-5), the wives are commanded by God to be sexually having their own husband, and have sexual authority over the sexual use of his body. They are forbidden from sexually denying each other except for prayer and fasting that is mutually agreed upon and has a time limit. V- Where is his responsibility to any of them? According to your scenario each of the woman support themselves, with the older children's help. ///In Africa, India, SE Asia and the Far East, poor polygynist families require the work of everyone able to work in order to survive. It would be unrealistic and unsupported by the Bible to require a poor

husband to have to be able to fully support every wife he has, leaving the practice of polygyny to the rich only. As in the Third World, the John Doe and his wives are poor working class people, need everyone who can work to work (housekeeping, raising kids, holding full time jobs, part time jobs and assisting each other). Everyone is "responsible" to the family for its support, according to their ability. V- He is living a lie. He goes to each of the women's church pretending to believe in that faith. This is deceit at its worst. These churches may all have "compatible core beliefs", I don't know. However, just by going to any of these churches Mr. John Doe is expressing a basic belief in that church's philosophy. So he goes and lives a lie. A good example he sets for his children. ///It is so hard to deal gently with the tone and content of your arrogant and ignorant assumptions. He has his own church and is a member ( but not an official) of it. He is forbidden to have an official leadership or service position (1Tm3). He visits his other wives churches NOT PRETENDING TO BELIEVE THEIR UNIQUE AND DISTINGUISHING BELIEFS, but as a believer in the Jesus and Bible they also hold to, as her own visiting man but not as a member of their church. He may not attend as her “husband” because that would violate America’s antipolygyny laws. John Does and I do this all the time. ///In my last main job I would attend up to four different churches, many of different denominations, on any one Sunday, enjoying the messages and the fellowship. THERE IS NO DECEIT. When John Does and/or I visit a Catholic, Pentecostal, Baptisit, Methodist, Messianic, AOG, Brethren etc church, we don't visit as deceitful nonCatholics, Pentecostals, Baptists, Methodists, AOGs, Messianic, Brethren, or etc.; but as believers in Jesus who have chosen to join them for fellowship at that time for that service. THERE IS NO LIE OR DECEIT, BUT AN AFFIRMATION THAT BELIEVERS IN JESUS MEET AND WORSHIP JESUS IN MANY DIFFERENT WAYS. V- Where is his leadership? What kind of example does he set for his children? How does he stand by his women when all their belief systems are different from his. ///The leadership is where it belongs, first with Jesus, then with the husband and then with the wife. They lead their children in consistent and faithful practice of their faith in Jesus. They set the example of the unity of all believers in Jesus who Love and serve each other as they are taught by Jesus to do so. Their core beliefs in Jesus are all the same, while the way they worship, baptize, have communion may vary significantly, being secondary beliefs V- Sure they have a picnic on the weekends but that just proves he is a good party organizer. One of the women probably has that chore also. ///In such a family, just as all the funds and finances are shared, all the duties and responsibilities are shared, including the planning, doing and cleaning up of a picnic. V- You brought up Muslims. Muslims set a good example with polygamy. A man cannot take another wife until he is fully able to support her and any children. Maybe if all these so called "bible believing", "God inspired" polygamists took their responsibilities more serious instead of collecting trophies there wouldn't be such an outcry against polygamy. Examples like yours justify the present mainstream mood against polygamy.

///You OBVIOUSLY know little of Muslim polygyny, especially African Muslim polygyny, where all work and pool their resources to help the family survive. Polygyny was never meant to be the privilege of only the rich and the powerful. V- If Mr. John Doe really wanted to have a polygamist relationship he would find a house where his 'family' could live together. ///In the USA that would probably make him/them subject to felony bigamy/polygyny prosecution, fines and imprisonment. A stupid way to ruin one's family. ///In State v. Barlow (107 Utah 292-1944), "The Utah Supreme Court rejected the defendant's free exercise challenge and affirmed their convictions for cohabitating with more than one person of the opposite sex." The U.S. Supreme Court dismissed the defendant's appeal of the Utah Supreme Court decision. p. 1070 "We find no authority for extending the Constitutional right to privacy so far that it would protect polygamous marriages. We decline to do so." 1985, see Roe v. Wade. p. 1070 ///The "Constitutional right of privacy prevents the state from criminalizing the non-prostitutional heterosexual activities of two unmarried consenting adults when such activities occur in privacy of home." Duling, 603 F. Supp. 960 (E.D. Va 1985). p. 1071 It behooves American polygynists that are legally married to be legally UNMARRIED AND CONSENTING with any other covenanted sexual partners they may have, exercising their polygyny in the privacy of their home, sexually, verbally and editorially. ///To pracitce polygyny in California before all the pro-homosexual laws were passed and the Supreme Court made its Texas ruling, you should not (and I still think you shouldn't because you can't trust DAs or judges): >> 1. Be legally married to more than one "wife" at the same time (CA Criminal Law #820) >> 2. Be married in an officially recognized ceremony to more than one "wife" at one time (CA Criminal Law 822; Fam Law #66)) >> 3. Be married in a state or publicly recognized common-law marriage to more than one wife at the same time (CL 822; Fam Law #65 & #66). Public here means the general public, not polygynous families who join you in a covenanting event. >> 4. Be married by state license to more than one mate at the same time (CL822) >> 5. Be solemnized in marriage to more than one wife at the same time by an official recognized by the state (CL822). If the polygynous "marriage" is "solemnized" by ceremony, rite or ritual, the words "wife", "husband" and "marriage" should be avoided carefully (a good thesaurus will help. See the appendix. See Fam Law#65). >> 6. Be authenticated in marriage to more than one wife at the same time (in polygyny) in any way acceptable to the state (CL822) >> 7. File the marriage certificate of registry with the state, for your polygynous marriage. (CL822) >> 8. Conclude in an official civil manner or legally your "marriage" in polygyny. (CL824) >> 9. Publicly cohabit as husband and wife, publicly and mutually, assuming marital rights, duties and obligations, including

sexual relations with more than one wife at the same time.(CL825) [Public here is the general public, not one's polygynous associates. Even though they may not cohabit as husband and wife, they may cohabit as man and woman, man and his own woman, exclusive lovers, exclusive love/life partners, exclusively devoted lovers, a man and his covenant woman/lover/partner/pal, or viceversa for all the above (e.g. a woman and her own man).] >> 10. Have the reputation in a community of being married, nor deport yourselves in the neighborhood as husband and wife (Fam Law 61 & 62). Specifically you must not allow/permit/encourage common, general, uniform, and undivided repute among witnesses/ neigbors that you are married to more than one mate at the same time. (Fam Law#65, Re Estate of Gill; Hite v. Hite; Re Estate of Baldwin). The reputation of being a man with more than one woman/lover would be legal. >> 11. Have any one other than the actual parties of the polygynous uniting present at the "uniting" ceremony (Fam Law 62), since every witness of the "uniting" is a possible "witness" of the polygynous uniting in a bigamy trial. See # 5 above. If they are willing to take the chance, there would be relative safety in having other polygynously "united" couples present. I don't see any problem with witnesses at a "covenant event", "union ceremony", or "bonding ceremony" (not wedding ceremony, see ch. 3). It would be foolish and risky to invite or inform the monogynous and/or the opponents of polygyny to any such uniting event. It only takes one witness to files criminal charges. V- A couple of the women could concentrate on their careers enabling them to bring home more money. ///Night and weekend schools and correspondence courses would allow all the wives to do so, with each other helping out with each other's kids. V- One could home school, providing the children a quality education. ///obviously you didn't read all of my post. Again --"///John works at Slurpo, the local soft drink company, as a union truck driver making a monthly net of $2400, working 30 hours a week. Betty works for the City as a meter reader, making a monthly net $2000 per month. Loulou took care of the babies, the last one to give birth and breast feeding. Fannie Mae works at a part time job, making a monthly net $800, to have time to help homeschool the children. The children are home schooled through the 8th grade. Daisy travels to town to work as an RN, making a monthly net $3200. All bring their gain to the family, and the family divides what they have according to each's need, striving for equality. Three of the older kids work at local restaurants and fast food outlets, making a net of $1630. Their monthly net family income is $10030. They have a total of 8 children, a family of 13 people." V- With them all living in the same household over all expenses would go down and the older children would not have to go to work to help support the family, which is Mr. John Doe's responsibility. ///THERE IS NOT ONE SCRIPTURE IN THE WHOLE BIBLE THAT SAYS THAT THE

HUSBAND IS REQUIRED TO BE SOLE PROVIDER AND THAT ALL ARE TO LIVE OFF OF HIS INCOME. YOU ARE TEACHING AS DOCTRINE YOUR OWN TEACHING INSTEAD OF GOD'S DOCTRINE. God's rule is made plain in 2 Cor 8 and 2 Cor 9. When necessary, all who can work should work (2 Thess 3:6-14). V- The children could concentrate on getting a better education, thereby ensuring a much better future for the children, which is another one of Mr. John Doe's responsibilities. ///ACCORDING TO YOUR MALE CHAUVINISTIC POINT OF VIEW. In the Bible's view the father/husband and wife/mother are jointly responsible for preparing their children for their futures. V- In my opinion, Mr. John Doe has four separate monogamous relationships. Mr. John Doe is living the good life. He can go from woman to woman as he sees fit. He is keeping them down. The women would be better off if they banded together and got rid of Mr. John Doe. ///No point in repeating the errors in U's reading and interpretations of my post. Getting rid of their John Doe would leave the women as single mothers with fatherless children, which in America today is the lowest and most poverty stricken level of living in America, with the children statistically doing worse in school and more likely to become involved in crime. Tom's idea sucks. John Doe and his wives avoid all these pitfalls and have the joy of living in loving and caring unity. ///The women have the same sexual authority over him and are commanded to be sexually having him, just as he is commanded to do with them. He has an hour plus every evening with all the wives and the children, and an hour =/- with the children of the wife with whom he spends that night. Such a family that Loves Jesus shows that Love by Loving each other, so when they see each others need, they do what they can to meet that need (1 Jn3 Eph 4) ///Sunday afternoon everyone in the family free to get together either has a picnic at the park/beach/river/lake/backyard. John spends Sunday night with Fannie Mae + kids after church. After having dinner with as many of his wives and kids as possible, John spends Monday night with Betty and one hour with her kids. After having dinner with as many of his wives and kids as possible, John spends Tuesday night with Loulou and one hour with her kids. After having dinner with Daisy and her kids they all go to Daisy's church and John spends Wednesday night with Daisy. The wives have scheduled nights with John on Thursday, Friday and Saturday nights. Since most months have four Thursdays, four Fridays and four Saturdays, each month, each wife has three of those nights with John. This means each wife has seven nights alone with John each month. Statistically most couples who have been married for five years or more are couples that do not have orgasmic sexual initmacy more than seven times per month. Thursday after having dinner with as many of his wives and kids as possible, he spends a couple of hours doing something pleasant and meaningful with the older kids and their moms and spends Thursday night with the schduled wife,or the wife who drew the "lot, or with the one who expresses the greatest need and the others consent. Friday after having dinner with as many of his wives and kids as possible, he spends a couple of hours doing something pleasant and meaningful with the younger kids and their moms and spends Friday night with the scheduled wife, or the wife who drew the "lot, or with the one who expresses the greatest need and the others consent.

Saturday is picnic, party, beach, movie, bowling, country dancing, Monopoly and Scrabble and/or cards day for everyone free to get together. If possible all who are able go to a Christian concert or special service Saturday evening. Saturday night John is with the scheduled wife, or the wife who drew the "lot, or with the one who expresses the greatest need and the others consent. +++++++++++++++++ Part five ++++++++++++++++++++++ Date: Mar 2003 From: <u@.net> = --Subject: Re: Re: Re:two "wives" that live in separate houses ---Must agree Tom. Mr. John Doe seems to have all the good of relationships but none of the bad. Not even the responsibility. ///Sad to see that N did no better than U. John Doe shares with each of his wives the responsibility of parenting, teaching, caring and providing for their children. John Doe and his wives are committed believers and followers of Jesus Christ, and are maritally committed to each other as long as each lives. Just as he is commanded to be sexually having his wives (1Cor7:25;Prov5:19,20) and has sexual authority over the sexual use of their bodies (1Cor7:2-5), the wives are commanded by God to be sexually having their own husband, and have sexual authority over the sexual use of his body. They are forbidden from sexually denying each other except for prayer and fasting that is mutually agreed upon and has a time limit. He is responsible for unselfishly and compassionately cherishing his wives in Love, of submitting to the Word of God they speak to Him from the Bible, and his wives are responsible for following his lead, as long as doing so does not involve disobedience to Jesus, and for showing the respect due to him as the marital authority that God has set over her (Rom 13; Ephes 5). ---It seems he is basically a "stud service" for these women in that aside from LouLou or whoever, everyone takes care of themselves. ///The women have the same sexual authority over him and are commanded to be sexually having him, just as he is commanded to do with them. He has an hour plus every evening with all the wives and the children, and an hour =/- with the children of the wife with whom he spends that night. Such a family that Loves Jesus shows that Love by Loving each other, so when they see each others need, they do what they can to meet that need (1 Jn3 Eph 4) ---While one woman who works as the meter maid gets no housework help while she is working, she is putting in a full week of work. The other women have much less to do. ///Fannie Mae's part time job plus home schooling is more than a full time job. Anyone who knows the work of an RN, knows that Daisy is earning the money she makes as a full time nurse. "Much less to do"? I don't think so. ///" Fannie Mae works at a part time job, making a monthly net $800, to have time to help homeschool the children. The children are home schooled through the 8th grade. Daisy

travels to town to work as an RN, making a monthly net $3200. " ---While Mr. John Doe has least of all. He just goes to work his measly 30 hours and hops from house to house for food, showers and sex. ///Many workers, especially if they work for Vons, Wal*Mart, KMart etc are given only 30 a week by their employer, because the employers want to keep their costs down. This John Doe is working the most hours his employer allows him to work. Obviously you didn't read all of the post--"///The women gain the love, protection, care, affection, passion and attention of a man they love passionately, a man who loves them passionately. Each wife has at least one hour alone with him every other night for intimacy and special attention. This allows each wife to have orgasmic passion three times a week without fear of HIV/ HCV/HPV. He has one hour a night with the kids. One hour a night with everybody during the dinner hour. As you see in the model below, their is no need for public assistance for this family of 13." --- I can see why a man would want it this way, but I see Mr. John Doe as a pig, as would most woman. ///Then your husband must spend more that nine hours a week eye to eye and face to face with your/his kids; more that nine hours a week eye to eye and face to face with you; and must have sex with you every night. This makes both him and you exceptional people with an exceptional marriage and family. Most of the lower working class people and poverty level women and children I work with and assist as a social worker long for a father/husband who invest a fraction of that amount of time in them and their lives. ================================= ///John works at Slurpo, the local soft dring company, as a union truck driver making a monthly net of $2400, working 30 hours a week. Betty works for the City as a meter reader, making a monthly net $2000 per month. Loulou took care of the babies, the last one to give birth and breast feeding. Fannie Mae works at a part time job, making a monthly net $800, to have time to help homeschool the children. The children are home schooled through the 8th grade. Daisy travels to town to work as an RN, making a monthly net $3200. All bring their gain to the family, and the family divides what they have according to each's need, striving for equality . Three of the older kids work at local restaurants and fast food outlets, making a net of $1630. Their monthly net family income is $10030. They have a total of 8 children, a family of 13 people. They all put their income into the common purse/account and in family conference decide together how the money should be spent. ///Their combined rents are $3200, in a blue collar neighborhood in So. Calif. Their food budget is $2600 per mo. They have car

expenses of $1000 per month. Insurance runs $520. Medical and dental insurance for the full time and part time stay-home moms, $400. Utilities and phone runs at $160. That is an outflow of $7880. That leaves $2150 for everything else, including savings, investments. ///Because polygamy is illegal in the USA, he is legally married only to one of the “wives”, Betty, and was privately and solemnly covenanted with each of his other ladies. Loulou, Fannie Mae, Daisy. He attends Betty's pentecostal church Sunday mornings at 8:30, as her husband. He attends Loulou's AfroAm COGIC church at 10:30, as her backslidden man to avoid prosecution for polygamy. He attends FannieMae's African American Episcopalean church Sunday night, as her backslidden man, to avoid prosecution. He attends Daisy's lilly white Presbyterian church Wednesday nights, as her backslidden man, to avoid prosecution. Sunday afternoons they either barbecue at the beach or the park, where they picnic together and the children play. >>>you mentioned insurance, which I assume is car insurance, and medical and dental insurance for the wives that stay at home - what about the rest of the family? /// The legal wife is covered by her husband's insurance through employment, and the wives who work out of the house have med and life insurance through their employment. The family budgets money to pay for medical insurance for those not covered by employment. >>>I stick to my original statement, such a situation means that each wife must work in order for the family unit as a whole to survive. ///Yes, everybody works, except for the children under 12 years. >>>And if Mr. Truck Driver is attending so many different churches, how is he remaining true to his own faith? /// All of those churches have compatable core beliefs, no serious conflicts. In obedience to Romans 14:1,22,23 when they are in fellowship with Christians in general they are careful not to get into discussions that might lead to talk or arguments about their private, personal and discreet polygyny; because " . . 1 . . . we who are strong [in our convictions] have an obligation to bear the weaknesses of those without strength [or much personal liberty], and not to please ourselves. 2 Each one of us must please his neighbor for his good, in order to build him up. 3 For even the Messiah did not please Himself." Rom 15 Peace, Tyler

============================= Perhaps a BETTER hypothetical modern urban blue collar polygynous senario could be like the one described here. Teacher Abner and legal wife, nurse Daisy, would live in the San Diego City community known as Hillcrest, in a three bedroom house with a large dining room and a large backyard for when the whole family is all together. Police woman Dillon lives in La Mesa with her two kids in their two bedroom house. Pregnant and homeschooling Safronia lives with her daughter in a two bedroom house with a big yard in Lemon Grove. Safronia takes care of all the preschool kids and homeschools the big kids using the computerized K12 program (www.k12.com). The big kids help her with the preschoolers, while her sister-wives are at work. They walk to the park for a picnic every clear day. They all put their money in a common account and meet every two weeks to determine how the money is to be spent, following the pattern of Acts 2 and 4, and the Baptist Church on E St. in Chula Vista. Abner and Daisy are members of an independent nondenominational church in Hillcrest, going to the latest Sunday morning service together. Abner spends Sunday and Tuesday nights with Daisy. Dillon attends La Mesa’s AOG church, and Abner attends the Wed night service with her as the absent father of her children. Abner spends Monday and Wednesday nights with Dillon. Safronia attends the Lighthouse Church on Skyline Dr and Abner attends the Sat afternoon service with her as the absent father of her children. Abner spends Thursday and Saturday nights with Safronia. Friday nights are buttered popcorn, peanut M&M,hot chocolate, hot cherry cider, video and DVD night when every body who can gets together for the evening in one of the houses. Those from the other houses bring mats and/or sleeping bags. Saturday midday its time for everybody who can to get good and greasy with hot dogs, marshmellows, potato salad, coleslaw, fruitcocktail in jello, BarBQ burgers and ribs, softball, volleyball, beach/swimmng and homemade diet ice cream/yogurt at a local park or beach. The kids often sleep with their moms when Abner is not spending the night with them. When Abner married Daisy, they were being intimate to orgasm three times a week. When Dillon joined the family, he observed Ex 21:11 by continuing to be intimate to orgasm three times a week with Daisy as well as three times a week with Dillon. When Safronia joined the family, Abner continued to observe the Ex 21:11 by having intimacy three times a week with both Daisy and Dillon as well as Safronia. Since Abner is trying to have 9 orgasms he always tries to make sure his lady has her orgasm first so that if he is too tired afterwards he can throw in the towel without hurting her feelings. The conscientious polygynist husband who would receive an additional wife always has to be mindful of the principle given in Ex 21:10,11. ***10 If he marries another wife, he is not to reduce her food, clothing or marital rights. Complete Jewish Bible 10 If he takes an additional wife, he must not reduce the food, clothing, or marital rights of the first wife. HCSB 10If he marries again, her food, clothing, and privilege as a wife shall he not diminish. AB Consider the File in the Files section of my poly groups entitled: AddingWivesThoughtsAdvice0908.html "Thoughts on adding wives to your family in Christian polygyny"

The following Elihu scenario should be kept in mind by every polgynist husband if and when he receives yet another wife or is thinking about doing so: ###Elihu starts off having marital intimacy three times a week with his wife, Sabrina. ### If ELIHU takes himself another [wife] , Hortensia, his wife Sabrina's food, clothing, and intimate duty of marriage shall not be lessened. This means that three nights he has marital intimacy with Lulu and three nights he has marital intimacy with Hortensia. He draws up and has notarized a LLC to protect and care for his family. THEN ###If ELIHU takes himself another [wife] , Safronia, and he knows that the food, clothing, and intimate duty of marriage of his wives ---Hortensia and Sabrina --- shall not be lessened. So now six nights he has marital intimacy with Lulu and Hortensia, one night and two weekend afternoons of intimacy with Safronia. They have a rotating schedule that determines who he sleeps with each night. Safronia is added to the LLC, and they qualify for a small group medical and dental insurance plan. THEN ###If ELIHU takes himself another [wife] , Mary Lou, and he knows that the food, clothing, and intimate duty of marriage of his wives ---Safronia, Hortensia and Sabrina --- shall not be lessened. So now he has to split three of his evenings, having a couple of hours of after dinner marital intimacy with two of his wives for three nights, and after nine marital intimacy with one of his wives three nights a week. He finally gets to sleep at 11. They have a rotating schedule that determines who he sleeps with each night. By now two of his wives have paying jobs and he is able to cut pack his work to 3/4 time. He has obtained a Viagra prescription. Mary Lou is added to the LLC and the small group medical and dental insurance plan. THEN ###If ELIHU takes himself another [wife], Harriet, and he knows that the food, clothing, and intimate duty of marriage of his wives ---Mary Lou, Safronia, Hortensia and Sabrina --- shall not be lessened. So now he has to split six of his evenings, having a couple of hours of after dinner marital intimacy with two of his wives for three nights, and after nine marital intimacy with two of his wives three nights a week. He finally gets to sleep at 11. They have a rotating schedule that determines who he sleeps with each night. By now three of his wives have paying jobs, two are taking care of the children and he is able to cut pack his work to 1/2 time. Harriet is added to the LLC and the small group medical and dental insurance plan. THEN ###If ELIHU takes himself another [wife], Betty Lou, and he knows that the food, clothing, and intimate duty of marriage of his wives ---Harriet, Mary Lou, Safronia, Hortensia and Sabrina --- shall not be lessened. So now he has to split seven of his evenings, having a couple of hours of after dinner marital intimacy with two of his wives for three nights, after nine marital intimacy with two of his wives three nights a week, and Sat and Sunday morning intimacy with his wives. He finally gets to sleep at 11 and sleeps until 7. They have a rotating schedule that determines who he sleeps with each night. By now four of his wives have paying jobs, two are caring for the children and he is able to cut pack his work to 1/2 time. He had to get a medicated lotion from the doctor to soothe the irritation of the skin on his genital. Betty Lou is added to the LLC and the small group medical and dental insurance plan. THEN ###If ELIHU takes himself another [wife], Scherazade, and he knows that the food, clothing, and intimate duty of marriage of his wives ---Betty Lou, Harriet, Mary Lou, Safronia, Hortensia and

Sabrina --- shall not be lessened. So now he has 3-5 pm marital intimacy with one of his wives three times a week before dinner, has to split seven of his evenings, having a couple of hours of after dinner marital intimacy with two of his wives for three nights, after nine marital intimacy with two of his wives three nights a week each, and Sat and Sunday morning intimacy with his wives. He finally gets to sleep at 11 and sleeps until 7. They have a rotating schedule that determines who he sleeps with each night. By now four of his wives have paying jobs, three are caring for and homeschooling the children and he is able to cut pack his work to on call consultant work. He continues to have to use medicated lotion from the doctor to soothe the irritation of the skin on his genital, but now also has to have a prescription to help him deal with his lower back pain and spasms. Sherazade is added to the LLC and the small group medical and dental insurance plan. THEN ###If ELIHU takes himself another [wife], Mizriamine, and he knows that the food, clothing, and intimate duty of marriage of his wives ---Scherazade, Betty Lou, Harriet, Mary Lou, Safronia, Hortensia and Sabrina --- shall not be lessened. So now he has 3-5 pm marital intimacy with one of his wives six times a week before dinner, has to split seven of his evenings, having a couple of hours of after dinner marital intimacy with two of his wives for three nights, after nine marital intimacy with two of his wives three nights a week each, and Sat and Sunday morning intimacy with his wives. He finally gets to sleep at 11 and sleeps until 7. They have a rotating schedule that determines who he sleeps with each night. By now five of his wives have paying jobs, three are caring for and homeschooling the children and he no longer works for pay and helps home school his children. He continues to have to use medicated lotion from the doctor to soothe the irritation of the skin on his genital, but now also has to have a prescription to help him deal with his lower back pain and spasms. Mizriamine is added to the LLC and the small group medical and dental insurance plan. ###THEN Mizriamine,-Scherazade, Betty Lou, Harriet, Mary Lou, Safronia, Hortensia and Sabrina get to go to Elihu's funeral, Elihu having died of heart failure while performing intimate duties of marriage, dying with a tired smile on his face. After mourning his wives had a beach party and Bar-BQ with assorted wine coolers. At that time they decided to start a child care and home schooling center, and look around for Elihu's replacement. This arrangement with Abner, or Elihu, leaves each polygynous wife free to practice all the church discipline prescribed in the Bible (2 Tim 2:24-26; Gal 6:1; Matt 18:15-18; 1 Cor 5:3-5,11), since as far as each church knows, the poly husband is either the absent father, absent husband or absent fiancé. Since he is not with each wife all the time, any wife who feels abused has ample opportunity to separate safely (1 Cor 7:10,11,39), to contact the police and/or initiate church discipline. +++++++++++++++++ Part Six++++++++++++++++++++++ >>>>>>Is Polygyny Sexist and an Exploitation of Women? <<[A] BIDJAN, Ivory Coast -- Tomam Constance Yai is on a crusade against polygamy. <<Although she scarcely tolerates it, her problem is not so much the traditional rural practice, which is widespread throughout this region, where the economics of hardscrabble farming have long encouraged men to take more than one wife.>> <<Instead, the crusade of this leader of the Ivoirian Association for the Defense of Women's Rights is aimed at an equally well established urban phenomenon of multiple wives, mistresses and concubines

that she says perpetuates the sexual privileges of men while stunting the lives of African women.>> <<By Howard W. French, New York Times. 10 April, 1996>> ///In the much of the Third World, the world of the impoverished, there are many impoverished Jesus believing single women, bereft women and widows who are failing to adequately control themselves and so are under command to marry (1 Cor 7:8,9; 1 Tim 5:10-14). Often in the Third World of Poverty, a single female aged 12 or above is forced into compromising sexual situations and often into outright prostitution because of the lack of food, clothing, shelter and income to the family. All one has to do is walk the streets of Tijuana, Mexico City, Calcutta, Bangkok, Cebu, Rio de Janero, Hong Kong etc to see females of all ages driven to sexual immorality and prostitution just to have food, clothing and shelter. In 1960s Tijuana alone I met one woman in her late teens who had dreams of going to college some day, but in the meantime she had to work in TJ strip clubs to help support her birth family, all of 8 of them living in a two room shack. In 1960s Tijuana a 14 year old big brother offered to me his 12 year old virgin sister for sex for $5 dollars for living expenses. In 1960s Tijuana three daughters, aged 8 24, and their grandfather offered their willing mother to me for sex for $5 inside a swapmeet kind of building. Such things ought not to be and broke my heart and I'm sure deeply grieved the heart of my Jesus. Polygyny WHICH IS NO WHERE CONDEMNED IN THE BIBLE, NEVER DECLARED TO BE SIN, NEVER FORBIDDEN BY GOD would be a much better alternative for these desperate people rather than pedophilia, public nudity, prostitution and fornication (having sex with one who is not your mate), adultery, lesbianism, sinful self-stimulation using memory or imagination or porn, bisexuality and/or lesbianism, ALL OF WHICH ARE CONDEMNED IN THE BIBLE, DECLARED TO BE SIN, FORBIDDEN BY GOD. I am sure that pedophilia, public nudity, prostitution and fornication (having sex with one who is not your mate), adultery, lesbianism, sinful self-stimulation using memory or imagination or porn, bisexuality and/or lesbianism, ALL OF WHICH ARE CONDEMNED IN THE BIBLE, DECLARED TO BE SIN, FORBIDDEN BY GOD do much more "stunting of the lives of" these females than polygyny ever would, WHICH IS NO WHERE CONDEMNED IN THE BIBLE, NEVER DECLARED TO BE SIN, NEVER FORBIDDEN BY GOD. On the average in the local churches of the Third World of Poverty, there are 2 available mongynous men for every needy woman in her 20's, 3 available monogynous men for every needy woman in her 30s, 4 available monogynous men for every needy woman in her 40s, and 5 available monogynous men for every needy woman in her 50s. Since there are not enough single godly men available for each bereft woman and widow to have one for each, instead of obeying the command to marry by marrying in polygyny WHICH IS NO WHERE CONDEMNED IN THE BIBLE, NEVER DECLARED TO BE SIN, NEVER FORBIDDEN BY GOD; instead these esus believing bereft women and widows fall in to fornication (having sex with one who is not your mate), adultery, lesbianism, sinful self-stimulation using memory or imagination or porn, bisexuality and/or lesbianism, ALL OF WHICH ARE CONDEMNED IN THE BIBLE, DECLARED TO BE SIN, FORBIDDEN BY GOD. Indeed the teaching and commandment and traditions of religious men against polygyny, have made the Word of God of no effect for these needy women (Mark 7:1-15). According to some Christian leaders, polygamous family living is described or rated as an

inferior type of family living, but a passable one>64 . The right of the first born>30 ; the right of each wife to food, clothing/ shelter and marital sex>31 ; and the right for the whole polygamous family to be Spiritually and materially blessed by God>32 is preserved by God in these polygamous marriages just as in monogamous marriages. There is no scripture that says a wife in polygyny is less of a wife than a wife in monogamy. There is no scripture that says a husband in polygyny is less of a husband than a husband in monogamy. Consider St. AugustineÕs point in the following:Ò . . . no one doubts . . . who reads with careful attention what use they made of their wives, at a time when also it was allowed one man to have several, whom he had with more chastity than any now has his one wife . . . But then they married even several without any blame . . Ó>65 [Footnotes:>.64 Please see THE INSTITUTES OF BIBLICAL LAW, by R. Rushdonney, p. 364. >30 (Deut. 21:15,16). >31 (Ex. 21:10). >32 (Genesis 30 and 2 Samuel 7). >..65 St. Augustin: On The Trinity; p. 406.] I understand a Christian elder to maintain that Israel put up with polygamy as a lesser evil, causing some of the Old Testament writers embarrassment, and causing these writers to criticize sharply, clearly and tirelessly showing the negativity associated with polygamy.>66. Tolerated as a lesser evil? Tolerated by whom? God did more than tolerate it, He legislated it in the following: Exodus 21: 7-11 and DEUT. 21:15-17 [Footnotes: >66. W. Trobisch, MY WIFE MADE ME A POLYGAMIST; p.19.]

Remember Exodus 21: 7-11 and DEUT. 21:15-17. WHY DOESN'T GOD CONDEMN HIM FOR TAKING ANOTHER WIFE IF IT IS A SIN? He legislated polygyny without one word or hint of condemnation right after having given the ten commandments with it's denunciation of adultery. If polygyny were sin, why didn't God condemn it instead of putting the royal seal of His holy Law on it? God's designated and anointed leaders freely and openly practiced it (Abraham, Jacob, David, Jehoida the priest, and God in Ezekiel

23). Where in the Bible does he find an Old Testament writer embarrassed to report polygamy? If you know of a single passage that clearly and explicitly states that, please let me know. How can any Old Testament writer be embarrassed of something God sanctioned and legislated, and that His designated and anointed leaders freely and openly practiced with God's obvious and abundant blessing in their lives (see the next section)? The Old Testament writers untiringly and realistically show the negativity of polygamy? Abram and Sarai, Rachel and Leah had problems, as did Hannah and so did Solomon, but even with these four there is no untiring and relentless criticism of polygamy? I couldn't find it. In the next section, covering thousands of years and each major period of Jewish history there is no such relentless criticism of polygyny found in the Bible. In fact if you accept the Song of Solomon as the story of young Solomon and his Shulamite wife in a polygamous marriage>34 , you have one of the most beautiful and positive statements of good will and love between the Shulamite and her co-wives as well as with the daughters of Jerusalem, many of whom probably also became wives to Solomon later in life when he went too far and disobeyed God by multiplying wives to himself>35 . Let's look at the record in the Word. [Footnotes:>34 (Song of Sol. 6:8-10). >35 (Deut 17:15-17)] St. Augustine (4th Century AD) had the following good word on this subject in the following: ÒThat the holy fathers of olden times after Abraham, and before him, to whom God gave His testimthat "they pleased Him," [Heb. 11:4-6] thus used their wives, no one who is a Christian ought to doubt, since it was permitted to certain individuals amongst them to have a plurality of wives, where the reason was for the multiplication of their offspring, not the desire of varying gratification. . .In the advance . . . of the human race, it came to pass that to certain good men were united a plurality of good wives, --- many to each; and from this it would seem that moderation sought rather unity on one side for dignity, while nature permitted plurality on the other side for

fecundity. For on natural principles it is more feasible for one to have dominion over many, than for many to have dominion over one.Ó [Footnote: >..67 A Select Library of the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers of The Christian Church, Vol. V; p. 267] Are polygyny and concubinage a form of female abuse? Without even discussing cases like that of OJ Simpson's, there is a very well documented serious and growing problem of spousal abuse in monogamous America. There is still an internationally known serious and abiding problem of males killing their wives either to free them so they can get the dowry of a new wife, or just because they don't love their wives, in India where open polygyny has been illegal for some time. You will find spousal abuse in every form of marriage known to and practiced by humans because their sinful nature>3 or because of the involvement of evil spiritual beings>4. The problem is not the social form of the marriage. The problem is in the humans who exercise that social form of marriage. Mates will abuse mates whether it be polygyny or monogyny. [Footnote: >3 Rom 3:23. >4 Eph. 2:1,2; 6:12.] Does polygyny denote inferiority on the part of the woman? There is nothing in the Bible that says women are inferior to men. "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.">5 What does it mean to be in Christ Jesus? "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great Love with which he Loved us, even when we were dead in sins, has made us alive together with Christ . . . and has raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus . . . for through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father." >6 In terms of what is real, spiritually right now we who are His children have a presence in His very presence right now where sex is totally irrelevant and inconsequential. "Therefore, from now on, we know no one according to the flesh. . .">7 Our sexuallity is not a legitimate basis for knowing each other or relating to each other. [Footnote: >5 Gal 3:28. >6 Ephes. 2:1-18. >7 2 Cor. 5:16]

The woman inferior? I really don't think so! To me they are the epitome of God's creation! Adam was made from dirt but Eve was made from living human tissue, the man's rib. Women have the profound and amazing opportunity to be a living Garden of Eden in which Jesus creates new human life! Men don't have that honor. Women have the power to transport their husbands into ecstasy and amazing delight, releasing wonderful chemicals in their minds that surpass the illegal drugs used by drug addicts to experience ecstasy (Prov 5:18,19). Women are made to be passionately desired, longed for, dreamed of, touched, caressed, celebrated and enjoyed. They are inspiring, motivating, challenging, stimulating and thrilling. Read the Bible's Song of Solomon and see how Solomon's blackas-a-crow Shulamite wife so greatly moved and intoxicated him! Two days ago I spent almost an hour, an hour I wished would never end, in fellowship with a beautiful, delightful, precious, gentle, kind, gracious, wise and inspiring 59 year old sister in Christ who is the embodiment of Prov 31. The joy, delight, happiness and preciousness of that brief time of fellowship has rejoiced my heart and still rejoices my heart these many days since. This power women can have over men can seriously tempt a woman to misuse her power over her men. I believe this power can tempt women to be proud, arrogant, conceited, selfish and self-centered. This power that women have for great good and great evil, this worship and adoration women inspire in men almost to the point of idolatry is one of the reasons I believe Jesus requires that wives submit themselves to their husbands to the same degree that they submit themselves to civil authorities, police, judges, employers, and bosses (1 Cor 11:1-15; Ephes 5:20-33; Romans 13:1-6; 1 Peter 2 & 3). I believe that this is the reason that Jesus requires wives not to teach or exercise authority (boss around) their husbands (1 Tim 2). I believe this is why wives are told to be silent in the church/assembly gatherings during the teaching periods (1 Cor 14). I believe that this is the main reason women are not authorized to be elders, bishops, deacons, overseers and leaders in the visible Christian church/assembly (1 Tim 3; Titus 1). I believe the teaching ministry of the woman in the church/assembly is given in Titus 2. I believe Jesus put all of these limitations on women for their own protection to help deliver them from the pride, arrogance, conceit, selfishness and self-centeredness to which they can be tempted because of the great privileges Jesus gave them as women, because of the power they can have over the men in their lives. If Satan was tempted to great pride and selfwill because of his great beauty and power, it is no surprise that women can be tempted to such pride and selfwill by the effect of their beauty on men, and the power it gives them over men. Women inferior?

IMPOSSIBLE!

Our sexuality is like a temporary "uniform" we wear during a short period of our eternal life with God, or like an instrument we temporarily play in God's orchestra. Our Father
decided>8 which of us would wear female "uniforms" and which would wear male "uniforms", which of us would play female insturments and which of us would play male instruments during our pilgrimage on earth. As the Grand Conductor of his orchestra, He decides where we should be and when orchestra and all are musicians with an instrument to play. There are varying degrees of skill and varying degrees of importance in His orchestra>9 We know that everyone in the orchestra must be harmonious and unified in their effort because it takes only one musician to make one sour note to mess up the under the command of the Conductor. 12.] "uniform". All are uniformed musicians in God's we should play our "instrument" or wear our performance, so clearly all are important and are all [Footnote:
>8 Eph. 1:11; Rom. 8:28. >9 Rom. 12; 1 Cor.

For some of us life means we are males, for some of us life means we are females, all under the same Conductor. His males and His females must be harmonious and unified in their effort because it only take one member to be grieved for the whole Body of Christ to be hurting>10 . The females' part in the symphony of life is spelled out in Bible passages>11 and the males' part in the symphony of life is spelled out in Bible passages>12. They are not the same parts, but under the grand Conductor the parts can and should be harmonious and unified, blending to produce a wonderful work for the benefit of all. [Footnote: >10 Rom. 12:5; 1 Cor. 12:26,27. >11 Gen. 2; 1 Cor. 11:1-16; 14:34,35,36; Ephes. 5; 1 Tim. 2 & 5 and Titus 2. >12 Gen. 2; 1 Cor. 11:1-16; Eph. 5; 1 Tim 3 & 5; Titus 1 & 2.] If that means the Conductor wants the male to play the lead violin and the female to play the lead viola in a duet (marriage), then He knows best and can draw out of us in that relationship beautiful harmonies for the delight and benefit of all. The female is not inferior to the male, but while they are male and female, He has laid down some rules how we are to relate in His Church when we assemble in one place, and He has laid down some rules when we come together in marriage/sex. If we Love Him, we will obey His rules in those settings>13 . If we love Him, we will compassionately cherish each other, male and female, in obedience to Him. Sacrificial and selfdenying compassionate cherishing results in no victims, not tyrants, no dictators, no slaves and no

abuse. It means seeking the best for the object of such Love and cooperating with them to achieve that best. [Footnote: >13 John 14:15, 21; 1 John 2:1-5; Heb. 5:8,9] Do polygyny and concubinage unfairly or unjustly give a male the advantage over his women? The husband is still commanded to live wisely and respectfully>14 with his wife and we know that the beginning of wisdom is the fear of the Lord resulting in obedience to the Lord>15 . The husband is still commanded to compassionately cherish his wife as Christ compassionately cherishes the Church. The advantage over women? It sounds more like the male is given additional and solemn responsibilities for the loving of his woman. [Footnote: >14 1 Peter 3:7. >15 Psalm 19:9; Prov. 1:7; Hebrews 5:6,7,8,9; Prov. 4:20-22] I submit to you that, as most Christian messengers have said, monogyny is the ideal and preferable form of marriage for most people. Most of us do not live in an ideal and preferred world. Most of us do not have first class tickets for the trip of life. Most of the Christian leaders told us that our ancestors were wrong in their practice of polygyny, so most of us stopped practicing it. In this document I submit that, for us who find ourselves in such a less than perfect world, we need to know our options and know them better. I try to show in this paper, that polygyny and concubinage are options available to followers of Christ today, that polygyny and concubinage are neither sinful nor displeasing to God, that polygyny or concubinage may be God's ideal/best for you, and that there is a way for the godly in Christ Jesus to live in polygyny or concubinage that today is acceptable to God and allowed by society. As with any controversial thing>16 in life, one must search out the will of God in the matter and, with His wisdom and enabling, walk in it as He leads and provides. Hopefully this paper will help you move in that direction, if it is His will. [Footnote: >16 Romans 14]

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrthodoxBiblicalMarriagePolygamy http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PolyPolygamyPolygynyNJesus http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=6382095167 http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=2648256332 http://groups.google.com/group/BiblicalChristianPolygamyPolygyny http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PolyOption4ChristiansWithSTDs/ http://groups.google.com/group/polygamous_friends_of_tyler http://groups.yahoo.com/group/polygynousfriendsofTyler/ http://biblicalmarriagepolygyny.yuku.com/forums/66 http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/9871607-ronnie-tyler http://www.flickr.com/groups/christian_polygyny/ http://www.flickr.com/groups/christian_polygamy/ http://www.shtyle.fm/community.do?cid=41185 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BlackPolygyny/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BrownPeopleChristianPolygamy http://biblicalmarriagepolygamypolygyny.webs.com/ http://meetup.com/SanDiegoChristianPolygyny http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Poly_Polygamy_Polygyny_And_Jesus/ http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=107582071823 (poly & divorce) http://groups.myspace.com/BiblicalChristianPoly http://polygynouschristians.multiply.com/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OrthodoxBiblicalMarriagePolygamy2

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