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UNITED STATES TAX COURT - TRIAL

ESTATE (OF MICHAEL J. JACKSON DECEASED)


EXECUTORS: JOHN G. BRANCA. AND JOHN MCCLAIN

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COMMISSIONER OF INTERNAL REVENUE (IRS)

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February 7th 2017

Presiding Judge Mark V. Holmes

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Jacksons estate is represented by Avram Salkin, Charles Paul Rettig, Steven Richard Toscher, R
obert S. Horwitz, Edward M. Robbins Jr., Sharyn M. Fisk and Lacey E. Strachan of Hochman Sa
lkin Rettig Toscher & Perez PC, Paul Gordon Hoffman, Jeryll S. Cohen and Loretta Siciliano of

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Hoffman Sabban & Watenmaker and Howard L. Weitzman of Kinsella Weitzman Iser Kump &
Aldisert LLP.
The
IRS is represented by its attorneys Donna F. Herbert, Malone Camp, Sebastian Voth, Jordan Mus
en and Laura Mullin.
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KAREN LANGFORD
John G Branca (Assistant)
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Mr. Weitzman: With Langford, I think the direct will take approximately two hours.

Judge Holmes: And then are we on track for tomorrow? They'll have to be cross examination,

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redirect. Who are we looking at tomorrow? Mr. Toscher, do you have an answer to that question?

Mr. Weitzman: Well, I have a partial answer to it. You know, I know you know we've lost a
day, because we thought there would be some additional cross examination of Mr. Branca and

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some lengthier cross-examination of Mr. Dunn. We have three potential witnesses tomorrow,
which a Mr. Chieffo, C-H-I-E-F-F-O, Mr. Forger, F-O- R-G-E-R, and I don't know yet. Oh, Mr.
Bennett, B-E- N-N-E-T-T all for tomorrow, although I'm trying to confirm one of the three.

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Judge Holmes: I just want to stay on track, three weeks.

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Mr. Weitzman: Trying, trying.
Judge Holmes: Three weeks minus two days almost now. All right. With that, it would probably
be logical to get through the direct examination and the cross examination for tomorrow.
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Mr. Weitzman: Okay. Your Honor, can I have a moment?
Court Clerk: KAREN LANGFORD sworn, ws examined and testified as follows:
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Court Clerk: And if you'll please state your name and address for the record.
A. Thanks. Karen Langford.
Court Clerk: And your address? Business address is fine.
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A. 1801 Century Park West, Los Angeles, California, 90067.

DIRECT EXAMINATION
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Mr. Weitzman:
Q. Ms. Langford, if you could speak up for me, okay?
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A. Okay.

Q. There you go, much better. Where are you employed?


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A. Ziffren Brittenham.

Q. And how would you describe what you do in the course of your employment?

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A. I guess I would describe my job as equivalent to business affairs.

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Q. When you say "business affairs," you're talking like you talk of in the studio or label business,
someone that reviews contracts and does some negotiations, who works with lawyers, in that
vein?

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A. Correct.

lJa
Q. And before you went to work for Ziffren, where did you go to college?

A. UCLA.
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Q. And after ... you didn't graduate, right? You left early?
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A. I left early.
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Q. And after you left UCLA, where did you go to work?

A. I worked for a sole practitioner by the name of Owen Sloan, who was in the music industry.
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Q. While you were at UCLA, did you work as, my phrase, an intern or work with lawyers kind
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of a quasi and then in an in fact paralegal position?

A. Yes.
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Q. And who did you work for while you were at UCLA?
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A. It was Mr. Sloan.

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Q. All right, and Mr. Sloan and you said was in the music business. Can you give us a few of the
people that you worked with, that you represented?

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A. Yes. Some of his clients included Stevie Nicks and Lindsay Buckingham, who were two of
the members of Fleetwood Mac. He also represented not just only artists but also companies like
music publishing companies, and one of the companies he represented was actually a company

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called ATV Music Group.

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Q. And is ATV Music Group any relation to the ATV that we've been talking about in this
lawsuit?

lJa
A. Actually, it is. It was the U.S. office.

Q. And at that time, did ATV have the Lennon- McCartney catalogue or part?
ae
A. Yes. Northern Funks was part of the catalogue. It was owned out of the UK, so the work done
in the U.S. was more administration of the catalogue as opposed to direct working on that
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catalogue.

Q. And just so we have an idea of the level of the work, what songs, not all obviously, give us
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some of the songs in that catalogue?

A. In the Lennon-McCartney catalogue?

Q. Yes.
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A. Yesterday, Let It Be, Hey Jude, Revolution. Do you want me to keep going?

Q. No, that's a good starter.


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A. Okay.
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Q. Most of us are familiar with that, and what type of work ... by the way, what year was this
again, late ...

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A. Late 70's.

Q. It must have been 90's or 2000's.

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A. Thank you, Howard. No, it was the late 70's.

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Q. All right. '78-'79?

lJa
A. Correct.

Q. And what type of work did you do for Owen Sloan?


ae
A. Well with regard to artist clients like Stevie Nicks and Lindsay Buckingham, it would be
doing things like publishing, registering, registration of their compositions with the Copyright
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Office or handling discussions registering their songs with ASCAP or EMI.

Q. So you said publishing and registering copyrights. Can you really break it down? Tell us what
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you did.

A. Oh, I'm sorry.

Q. Title publishing, what did you do?


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A. Publishing. When a songwriter writes a song, the first thing that they generally do is submit it
to the Copyright Office to protect it, to get a copyright registration.
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Q. How do you go about doing that?


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A. There's a form that you fill out, that the Copyright Office provides, and you submit it with

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either a lyric sheet or with a recorded version of the composition, which could be ... back then
it was mostly common cassette tapes.

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Q. And the purpose of registering with the Copyright Office is what?

A. Protection against somebody being able to claim that they created the work. Copyright
infringement protection basically.

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Q. And do you send the actual work to the Copyright Office?

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A. You can either send it in the form of a recording, the cassette tape back then, or you can send,
you could do it as a lead sheet, so that you have the words and music written out on a lead sheet.

lJa
Q. So I actually haven't asked this but I'm curious.
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A. Okay.
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Q. For Stevie or for Lindsay, do you remember any of the songs you registered, that we might
recognize?

A. I wish I could tell you that I did, but I don't actually remember the song titles.
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Q. Sure. I was curious.

A. That's okay.
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Q. Any other artists that you did that for?

A. I'm sure there were, but I can't really remember any of the other specific artists. He
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represented a lot of artists that were international, from Australia and other countries.

Q. Besides registering items with the Copyright Office, what else did you do for him?
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A. Once a composition has been recorded and released, you would also file registrations with
their performing rights society, which in the U.S. would be BMI or ASCAP.

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Q. Why did you do that?

A. Because BMI and ASCAP collect the public performance fees that are generated on musical
compositions from radio stations, television stations, under blanket licenses, and then they pay

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their writer and publisher members for those ... from those revenues.

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Q. So when you're talking about performance or radio and television, can you explain exactly
what that is?

lJa
A. Well, back then when you would turn on your car radio, that's basically the radio that people
would listen to. It was before satellite, before streaming, before all of that. So the two ... the
primary way that you would listen to music would be on the radio. ASCAP and BMI had ...
would issue licenses on behalf of all of their members, to all of the radio stations around the
country.
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Q. Blanket licenses?

A. Blanket licenses for everything in their respective ... that they represent in their respective
catalogues. So everybody that's represented by ASCAP would be covered under the blanket
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license that ASCAP would give to the radio station. BMI would enter into a separate license with
the same radio station for everything in their catalogue. At the time, those were the only two
performing rights societies. Today, there's actually a third, SESAC, but back then there was only
ASCAP and BMI.
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Q. Isn't there a fourth, Global Music Rights?


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A. Sorry Irving, yes.


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Q. I don't think Mr. Azoff would like you to forget that. Okay. So is BMI, we've heard BMI in
some of this lawsuit. Was BMI where Michael Jackson's music was?
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A. Yes. He was a member of BMI.

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Q. All right. So what other projects were you involved in or work did you do for Mr. Sloan?

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A. On clients like ATV, which was actually the first client I actually did anything on, it would be
things related to either deals, co-publishing deals or purchase agreements or songwriter
agreements that they would enter into with third parties.

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Q. And how long did you work with Mr. Sloan?

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A. I worked with him, I guess about in that I had actually started working for him, as I said
earlier when I was in college. But in the beginning, it was just kind of helping out around the
office and to use your word interning. So if I could, if I go back to that, then probably about five

lJa
years.

Q. When did you leave and where did you go?


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A. I left in 1981 and I went to work for what was then known Ziffren, Brittenham, Gullen and
Ingber.
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Q. And when you went to work there, was John Branca also working there?
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A. Yes, he was.

Q. Okay. What did you do when you first went to work with Ziffren?
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A. When I first started at Ziffren, I was actually the only person who was a paralegal at the firm.
So I did ... I was brought in primarily because John and another music lawyer, Jeff Ingber, had
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started working there and they wanted somebody to be there to help them on the music clients,
and I also helped Dave Gullen, who was the corporate lawyer in the firm forming corporations
and doing some basic minutes or things like that.
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Q. Let me just back up. When you were working for Mr. Sloan, did you have occasion to also
review agreements?
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A. Yes.

Q. What type of agreements would you review and after you reviewed them, what would you do

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for Mr. Sloan?

A. Well, I would review them and give him whatever comments I had, and then he would give
me whatever feedback, and sometimes he would take the comments to the other, whoever it was

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on the other side, and sometimes he would ask me to do it.

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Q. And were these comments that dealt with the terms or the conditions of the respective
agreements you reviewed? In other words, when he reviewed these agreements, I'm assuming
you dealt with the terms and conditions of the agreement.

lJa
A. Sure.
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Q. Not the, what I would call the boilerplate. Is that basically what you did?
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A. I would say both.

Q. Okay, and the comments you provided to Mr. Sloan consisted of what, just kind of in a
summary form?
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A. It might be things like, for example, on an accounting provisions, the accounting. Somebody
might have provided for semi-annually accountings and I might comment that they should be
quarterly. Or how many days after the end of the accounting period the accounting should come
in, or if the percentage, if for example it's an administration agreement where you're ... where
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the client is giving the publisher the ability to administer their compositions, comments might
extend to things like approval rights and reserved rights and how advances are paid. It could be
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any of those kinds of things.

Q. And when you went to work at Ziffren, you worked for ... you told us for Mr. Gullen, Mr.
w.

Ingber, Mr. Branca. What did you do for them?


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A. Well, with Mr. Gullen it was different, because it was just kind of more the basic corporate

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upkeep, forming corporations, articles of incorporations, bylaws, notices, things like that. So
very basic corporate stuff. For John Branca and Jeff Ingber, it would be working with them on
their respective music clients, and handling whatever they ask me to handle.

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Q. And with respect to Mr. Ingber and Mr. Branca, do you remember the names of some of the
clients you were working with or for?

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A. Sure. With Mr. Ingber, it would have been Neil Diamond was one of his clients that I worked
on. With John, a couple of them would have been the Beach Boys and Michael Jackson.

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Q. Did you work for any other attorneys at the firm, at least during the early days?

lJa
A. I did actually, although I didn't come in there initially to work on stuff for the Television and
Film Department. Once I got to the firm and started there, I did start working on some of the TV
and film clients as well, working with different lawyers, Tom Hoberman, Ken Ziffren, Skip
Brittenham.
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Q. Okay. So when you ... when did you meet Michael Jackson?
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A. 1981.
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Q. And where did you meet him?

A. I believe the first time I met him was at a meeting in the Ziffren offices.

Q. And who was at the meeting if you recall?


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A. Michael, John Branca, myself and I don't remember if there was anybody else in there.

Q. And what type of work were you doing for Mr. Branca on behalf of Michael Jackson, at least
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starting in 1981-'82?
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A. Some of the early things would have been some of the same kinds of things that I was

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describing earlier, registering his copyrights, registering his compositions with BMI, making sure
that his administrator, which was Warner-Chappell, you know, was advised of releases and given
the information they needed on songwriter and publisher, so that they could properly administer
the songs.

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Q. And credit the songs?

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A. And credit the songs, communicating with them on anything that you needed approval for
licensing purposes. There wasn't ... I think that was probably in the early days, probably the
stuff that I started with on Michael.

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Q. And at that time for Michael or for others, did you listen to the cassette tapes you were giving
when you would register the song?

lJa
A. No. I would get the cassette tapes from Michael and he would give me the information as to
who the writers were. I would take that information and I would submit it to the Copyright
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Office, and then when the tapes came back from the Copyright Office, I would return them to
Michael.
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Q. So would it be fair to say that you didn't know what was on the track?

A. Personal knowledge, no. Only what he told me.


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Q. And would you know whether or not the ... and I said "track" but I meant cassette, would
know whether the cassette had vocals, instrumental, speech?

A. The only information I would have would be what he would tell me, because on the copyright
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form that you have to fill in, when you ... when on a PA form, which is what you file for a
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musical composition, it asks you for the name of the author and what their contribution is. So for
a musical composition you have words and music. So he would have to tell me if the
contribution was words or music or both. So if it was an instrumental, for example, it would just
be music. So that would be the only way I would know whether it was musical only or music and
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words.
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Q. And so this cassette or whatever it was that you sent to the Copyright Office, didn't detail

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length or have lyrics or anything like that?

A. No. The cassette tape did not. Occasionally, you might get a piece of paper with the lyrics on

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it, but that was very rare.

Q. So now this is 1981-1982.

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A. Okay.

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Q. Yes?

lJa
A. Yes.

Q. What's the next thing you recall doing for Michael Jackson that didn't involve publishing or
registration of copyrights?
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A. Excuse me. The next thing I really recall would have been the formation of Optimum
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Productions.

Q. What is Optimum Productions?


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A. Optimum Productions is the company that Michael Jackson created to produce his short films.

Q. And were there any short films that were produced once Optimum was formed?
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A. Optimum was originally formed to produce the short film "Thriller," because that was the first
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short film that Michael was producing outside of his agreement with CBS Records at the time,
Sony Music now.
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Q. So when he had the CBS and now of the Sony agreement, were there short films or videos
produced?
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A. By CBS?

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Q. By CBS with Michael?

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A. Before Thriller?

Q. Before Thriller.

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A. Yes. There would have been ...

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Q. Are you saying I wasn't that clear?

lJa
A. Sorry. Either that or my brain's fuzzy, I don't know.

Q. Yes, before Thriller.


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A. There were three music videos produced by Sony, by CBS for the Off the Wall. There was
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"She's Out of My Life," "Rock With You," and "Don't Stop Until You Get Enough." On the
Thriller album, there were two videos produced by Sony prior to Thriller, one for "Billie Jean"
and the second for "Beat It."
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Q. And after Optimum was formed, was that when the Thriller video, the Thriller short film, the
Thriller film we saw in the theater produced?

A. Yes, it was. It was actually formed specifically for that, because we needed a company to
produce it and it was also we had to affiliate the company with the guilds, SAG, AFTRA. and
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DGA, in order to produce the film.


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Q. And what year would this have been?


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A. 1983.
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Q. How long did it take for the film to start and ... how long did it take to do the film from start

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to finish is what I was trying to say?

A. I actually don't remember what the production period was.

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Q. And did you work on any parts of putting that film together? I'm not talking about the creative
end, although I'm sure you could have.

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A. I was in the edit room.

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Q. But I'm talking about kind of the business affairs end.

lJa
A. As I said, there were ... it was a project because up until that point, the record company had
funded the production of all the music videos that had been made, and at this point the budget for
the Thriller short film was something that the record company was not prepared to fund, which is
also why Michael produced it himself, because he was prepared to fund it.
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Q. And you worked with Mr. Branca on that?
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A. I did.

Q. Tell us what you did initially and how it developed.


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A. I was really just working in assisting John in getting some of the paper work done for the
deals with Vestron Video, which put the ... put it out with the Making of Thriller, with
Showtime and MTV for ... which is how the money was brought together to fund the
production.
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Q. And did you work with Mr. Jackson as well?

A. Yes. I even went down to the set of Thriller.


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Q. Okay. On more than one occasion?


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A. Actually twice.

Q. Okay. What's the next thing you recall doing with or on behalf of Mr. Branca for Mr. Jackson?

n.c
A. All right. So Thriller came out. The Thriller short film was released December of 1983. At
that point, also ... can I take a step back for a second?

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Q. You can. You're the witness.

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A. Thank you. Yes, I'm getting my dates together now. In 1983, there came a point in time at
which Michael decided he no longer wanted the services of his managers, Weisner and Demann,
and so at that point ... and was not prepared to hire another manager at that moment. So at that

lJa
point, he kind of he kind of changed the structure of what John in particular was doing for
Michael and became, you know, much more involved in a lot of the kinds of things that a
manager might feel. So I worked with John on dealing with a lot of those things.
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Q. Like what? Give us some examples.
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A. Like the requests that started coming in for merchandise licenses and things like that.

Q. You mean what some people refer to as name and likeness?


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A. Yes.

Q. And tell us what you did initially with respect to the merchandise of name and likeness
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opportunities?
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A. I would field the offers from the various companies that would approach us. I would get
samples of their product so that Michael and John and I could all sit around and look at all the
products.
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Q. So give us an idea of what type of product you're talking about, and what you all did in terms
of looking at the product and trying to decide if you wanted to be involved?
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A. It could be things like towels or posters.

Q. Towels?

n.c
A. Towels, yes. I remember beach towels.

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Q. Okay.

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A. Posters, you know, tee shirts and some of the standard stuff, and then also some things like I
remember a company that we did a deal with for kids musical things like transistor radios, little
record players. It was dolls, there was trading cards, there was all ...

lJa
Q. Those are the Tops trading cards?

A. Tops trading cards, yes.


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Q. I remember those.
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A. Yes. They were great. I still have my box.


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Q. And so they were what is generally referred to in the business you were in as name and
likeness; correct?

A. Correct.
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Q. General merchandise.

A. General merchandising.
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Q. Okay, and did you and John Branca and Michael Jackson literally sit down and go through the
Tops opportunities or all these opportunities?
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A. When Michael was coming into the office for a meeting, I would have the stuff that I would
have stored up in my office and I would spread it all out, and we would sit and go through all of
it and if it was something we could play with, we would play with it. If it's something to look at,
we would look at it and you know, we would go through all of it. I mean it was ... it was fun. It

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was, you know, it was a kick, you know. It was just something to do that was out of the ordinary.

Q. Did it generate any revenues for Michael?

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A. Some. I mean I wouldn't ... I wouldn't call it, you know.

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Q. Not like the music, not like the tour but

lJa
A. Yeah.

Q. But it did generate some revenues for him; correct?


ae
A. Sure, sure, yeah.
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Q. So can you give us an idea of how much, you know, how much revenues were generated?
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A. Over the course of a few years.

Q. A couple of years?

A. Well I mean, most of the deals that are done in likeness and things like that are done for a
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period of time, so three to five years or something like that. So if you look, if you take any of
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these deals and you kind of look at them and annualize them, I would say probably over ... on
an annual basis you're probably looking at, you know, maybe a few million dollars a year.
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Q. Okay. Did the Thriller video, who owned the Thriller video?

A. It's owned by Optimum Productions.


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Q. So by the way Optimum Productions was a corporate entity?

A. Yes, a California corporation.

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Q. And Michael was the sole shareholder?

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A. Yes, he was.

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Q. So he owned that short film?

A. Yes.

lJa
Q. Okay, and John Landis, what was his involvement?
ae
A. He was hired as the director, along with his producing partner George Folsey, to work on the
project. Michael had seen a film that John had done, American Werewolf in London, and told
John ...
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Q. Is that ... did Mr. Branca contacted John Landis?


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A. Yes, he did.

Q. All right, and John came on board with George Folsey?


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A. Correct.
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Q. And they ... George is a cinematographer, right?


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A. I don't think he ... I'm not sure what his background was.

Q. Okay, and that footage was very successful in supporting Michael's career; is that correct?
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Mr Camp: Objection, leading.

Judge Holmes: Sustained.

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Mr. Weitzman:
Q. I'll rephrase it, Your Honor. Was the film successful in supporting Michael's career?

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A. Very. It was, you know.

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Q. How so? What happened with the film?

lJa
A. Well, the film had ... was premiered in theaters for a limited run, which had never been done
before. It had a worldwide release on MTV. There was a one hour program called "The Making
of Thriller," which was premiered on Showtime, you know, generated a vast amount of attention
for the short film and obviously in turn for the album that it was promoting. 449
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Q. How did Making of Thriller come about?
ich

A. That was a deal done with Showtime, to raise the balance of the money needed for
production. So that was a deal that John Branca negotiated with Showtime.
mM

Q. And that was to help defray the expenses of the production?

A. That was to help, correct, and that was also then put out on home video or VHS at the time by
the way, and became the biggest-selling music documentary video in history.
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Q. And that was in support of the Thriller album; correct?

A. Correct.
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Q. And the Thriller song was one of the more successful songs on that album; correct?
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A. The recording?

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Q. The recording.

n.c
A. Yes.

Q. Okay. By the way, who composed or wrote Thriller?

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A. A gentleman by the name of Rod Temperton.

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Q. So he in effect owned this song composition himself?

lJa
Mr Camp: Objection, leading.

Judge Holmes: Sustained.


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Mr. Weitzman:
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Q. Who owned the composition, it's kind of a rhetorical question. Who owned the composition
"Thriller"?
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A. Rod Temperton through his publishing company, Rod Songs.

Q. All right. Were there any songs on that Thriller album, by the way, that Michael wrote?

A. Yes, there are four songs, four compositions on Thriller that Michael composed. The Girl is
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Mine, Billie Jean, Beat It, and Want To Be Starting Something.


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Q. Was there a tour that supported that album?


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A. Actually, there was not. The first solo tour that Michael did actually didn't come until after the
Bad album was released several years later. The tour he did after the release of Thriller and
before the release of Bad was actually a tour with his brothers called the Victory Tour.
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Q. That was the Victory Tour?

A. Correct.

n.c
Q. By the way, did the Victory Tour have a sponsor?

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A. It did. It was the first sponsorship deal with Pepsi.

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Q. And that was in 1984?

A. '84, yes.

lJa
Q. Who controls the use of the song Thriller?
ae
A. By song you mean the recording or the composition?
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Q. The masters.

Judge Holmes: Wait a second.


mM

Mr. Weitzman:
Q. I'm sorry, the publishing. Sorry, sorry, sorry. Who controls that?

A. Rod Songs. His company still owns it.


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Q. And so if someone wanted to exploit the composition Thriller, what would they have to do?
w.

A. They would have to make a deal with Rod Songs through whoever Rod's administrator at the
time was, and I mean an example of something like that, there's a commercial that I'm sure most
people have seen for Party City, which uses the song but not the Michael Jackson recording.
Which uses the composition and not the Michael Jackson recording.
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Q. Now what about exploiting the film? How does that work?

A. Well, the short film is generally when it's being used in conjunction with the master, is

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generally licensed by Sony Music, or at that point would have been CBS.

Q. Can the film be exploited without Mr. Temperton's company?

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A. If they want to use visuals and no audio.

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Q. But if they want to use visuals and audios, what has to happen? Who has to approve its use
and who's involved in the royalty stream, revenue stream?

lJa
A. On the publishing, the revenue would flow to Mr. Temperton's company, Rod Songs, and
whoever the licensee is would make a deal with him for whatever, you know, for those rights and
then they would separately have to negotiate a deal with Sony Music for the master and for the
visual part of the short film.
ae
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Q. So when this video, the short film, is shown or exploited or somebody wants to license it,
what are the elements that are licensed?

A. If it's a ... if somebody wants to take a clip, for example, just to use something specific. If
mM

somebody's doing a TV program and they want to use a clip from the Thriller video playing on a
TV screen in a scene, they would go to the administrator for Rod Songs and they would negotiate
a sync license for the publishing.

Q. Stop. Sync license means what?


a
Te

A. Synchronization, which basically means you're taking the ... something and you're syncing it
with, in that case, the TV program. Similarly, they would also then have to go to Sony Music or
CBS, depending upon what year it is, and negotiate for the rights to the recording and the video,
and generally that's referred to in the industry as a master use license. It's still a sync right, but
w.

for some reason it over the years developed into a thing called the master use license.
ww
Q. And would it be accurate to say that it would involve a name and likeness deal with Michael

om
Jackson?

A. No, there's no name and likeness involved in ...

n.c
Q. Involved in that type of exploitation.

so
A. ... licensing those rights, correct.

MRr Camp: Object. Your Honor, that reaches a legal conclusion. It's asking the witness to reach

ck
a legal conclusion.

lJa
Judge Holmes: Overruled. Go ahead, Mr. Weitzman.

Mr. Weitzman: ae
Q. Thank you, Your Honor. So you have all these name and likeness opportunities coming in
during that time period. I'm talking about the Thriller period, the Victory Tour and we start
talking about the Pepsi sponsorship. The Pepsi sponsorship was for the tour; is that correct?
ich

A. Correct.
mM

Q. Was it a name and likeness deal?

A. It was for them to become the sponsor of the tour, which along with that ... from their
perspective, it's a way for them to advertise their product to the consumers.
a

Q. And from our perspective, our perspective being the Jackson entity, entities, it was a way to
Te

defray the costs of the tour; is that correct?

A. Correct.
w.

Q. And then ... by the way, did you work with anybody else for name and likeness general
merchandise deal, by anybody else other than Michael Jackson and/or the Jacksons?
ww
om
A. During that period of time?

Q. Yes, during that period of time.

n.c
A. I mean the only kinds of things that relate at all to name and likeness really weren't name and
likeness licenses. It was more just, for example, just because it's easier I think, some of the film
and TV clients that I was working with at that point were people like Henry Winkler, Don

so
Johnson. So it - - Henry, for example, was in the series "Happy Days."

ck
Q. I'm familiar with it.

A. Yeah, okay. Well, just in case. So the production company, Paramount, owned the series but

lJa
Henry as an actor with some leverage was able to have approval over how they used his image in
character, which they had the right to exploit, but he had certain approval rights. So it would be
... ae
Q. So in other words, Paramount owned the Fonzie character?
ich

A. Correct, and still do.

Q. And still do, but Henry had certain approval ... Mr. Winkler had certain approval rights?
mM

A. Correct. So in that regard, it was assisting him in processing those approvals, but not really
granting any name and likeness rights independently.
a

Q. And did you all get involved in deals for candy bar or for clothing on behalf of Michael
Jackson, things like that as well?
Te

A. There were lots of different things that came in.


w.

Q. Okay. Like?
ww
A. Like clothing and perfume. What else, gosh, other than the ones I've already named? What

om
were some of the other unusual ones?

Q. While you're thinking, was there a company that was formed to ... with respect to

n.c
merchandising for Michael Jackson?

A. Yes.

so
Q. What was the name of the company?

ck
A. Originally when it was formed it was known as Triumph Merchandising, Inc. Shortly after it
was formed, Michael said that he wanted to change the name and it ultimately became known as
Triumph International, Inc., and that's the name it still has today.

lJa
Q. So I want to ask you this. When you gather all these goods and you lay them out on the table
...
ae
A. Or the floor.
ich

Q. Or the floor and Mr. Branca and Mr. Jackson come in, I mean like how did it appear to you
Michael Jackson felt about these merchandising uses? You were there and you observed it. Tell
us what you saw.
mM

A. You know, it was ... it was fun. It was something different. It was, you know, look at this,
you know. I remember one thing that had been sent to us, which was kind of like a poster but it
was on foam core. So it was like stiff. It wasn't like a paper poster, and it was a big image of
Michael in the ... it was the single sleeve for human nature. So it's a white shirt and a yellow
vest. People know it pretty well, and it actually ... I happen to think it's a really good picture of
a

Michael, and I made a comment to him about it and, you know, and he got all embarrassed and,
Te

you know, because I think I actually told Michael he looked sexy. But, you know, and so it was
kind of like playful. It was like it was an opportunity to kind of sit and just be a kid, playing with
a bunch of stuff that, you know, has been laid out in front of you. It was just fun. It was, you
know, a diversion. It was something he enjoyed and always loved coming in and doing that. I
w.

mean he would always, you know, look forward to being able to sit and go through all the
merchandise. He didn't, you know, that was the fun part.
ww
Q. So did Michael, at least when you dealt with him, did he appear to want to have as much

om
merchandise as he could get out there? 458

A. Yes. I mean he wanted it to be good stuff.

n.c
Q. I have a question. Was it about the money or about getting the merchandise out there?

so
A. No. It was about the merchandise.

Q. Tell us why you say that.

ck
A. Because it was fun. I mean for him to have the ... for him to be doing something where he

lJa
was seeing all these things that he could create and make available to kids especially, I mean like
the little, the toys and the little toy microphones that you could sing into and all those things. I
mean I think that if he could have, we would have had a whole toy store with aisles ...
ae
Q. The Michael Jackson Toy Store?
ich
A. ... aisles full of nothing but Michael Jackson merchandise. I mean that's, you know, who
wouldn't want that? Me.

Q. Well, probably me.


mM

A. I mean me too, but for him it was fun, you know, so ...

Q. Okay. So now the Victory Tour takes place. Did the Victory Tour do well?
a
Te

A. Do well in terms of ticket sales?

Q. I should know better than to ask you that open-ended question. How did the Victory Tour do
w.

in terms of ticket sales?

A. Extremely well. It was a sell out pretty much everywhere.


ww
om
Q. And this was the tour with the brothers, right?

A. Correct.

n.c
Q. Who was the promoter of the tour?

so
A. Chuck Sullivan ultimately.

ck
Q. And how did this tour do financially?

A. Not so well for Mr. Sullivan.

lJa
Q. Why is that? ae
A. Because ultimately between that and another deal that he did with Michael, put him and his
family business into bankruptcy.
ich

Q. And what was the other deal you are referring to?
mM

A. It was kind of an overall merchandising license deal for creating a clothing line and some
other products.

Q. General merchandising, not tour merchandising?


a

A. Correct. It had nothing to do with the tour. It was completely separate and it was directly with
Te

Michael's company Triumph, not with the brothers and not part of the Victory Tour.

Q. And this would be in the name and likeness category for retail; correct?
w.

A. Correct, correct, correct.


ww
Q. Today over Amazon, but back then brick and mortar; correct?

om
A. Back then in actual stores that you had to walk into.

n.c
Q. And did Michael get an advance for that?

A. Yes, he did actually.

so
Q. How much did he get?

ck
A. Well, the agreement actually called for $28 million, of which he actually wound up receiving
18.

lJa
Q. And what was type of merchandise, general merchandise you are referring to or were
referring to in that deal? What did it involve?
ae
A. Clothing, different items of clothing and other accessories and things like that, including for
example, I know that at one point there was a perfume license that had been issued under that
ich
deal.

Q. And would it be a fair statement to say that the clothing and the perfume didn't do as well as
Mr. Sullivan had hoped?
mM

A. Mr. Weitzman, I think that's an understatement.

Q. Okay, and when you talk about ... just so I think His Honor understands it, but so you can
a

give us the brief summary form, but tour merchandise versus general merchandise. General
merchandise is retail; what's tour merchandise and why does ... why is it called tour
Te

merchandise?

A. Tour merchandise is the items of merchandise, generally especially back then were pretty
w.

standard, tee shirt, sweat shirts, hats, pennants, effectively souvenir merchandise that would be
sold at the venues to people who were attending the concert performances. That's the only place
that merchandise was sold. The tour merchandise licenses were actually prohibited from selling
ww
their goods anywhere other than at the venues. They couldn't sell it to any they couldn't

om
wholesale it to any stores to sell or anything like that. It was specifically sold there, and the other
item that I forgot was actually a program, a tour program, which was very common.

n.c
Q. Okay. So did Michael Jackson after the by the way, was there litigation that came out of that
experience?

A. I'm sorry?

so
Q. Was there a lawsuit?

ck
A. With which?

lJa
Q. The entertainment partners, the Sullivan deal?

A. There was ... that was a very convoluted process, I mean because at one point it did go into
ae
bankruptcy and then we were dealing with, because originally it was Stadium Management
Corporation and then it became Entertainment Properties, and then they had a licensing agent
who became part of the process, and there was also Gotham.
ich

Q. It's too complicated for me.


mM

A. Yeah.

Q. The Judge may be following it, but it's too complicated for me. Did Michael have to pay any
money back to Mr. Sullivan? Did he get to keep all the money? Was there any dispute that arose
between Sullivan or his entities and Michael and his entities?
a
Te

A. There were certainly disputes along the way, especially the fact that, you know, because of the
fact that he didn't pay the full guaranty. I do not believe Michael had to pay back any of the 18
million he received.
w.

Q. Okay. To the best of your recollection, and this is just a broader question, did Michael Jackson
do any other clothing line deals?
ww
om
A. I don't recall any other clothing line deals.

Q. During the Victory Tour that Pepsi sponsored, were there any other events that you recall

n.c
during that time period involving the tour, involving Michael, involving Pepsi?

A. Events. You mean like Michael's accident?

so
Q. Yeah. I didn't want to lead you there, so I was hoping you'd get there. Were you there when
that took place?

ck
A. I was not at the filming location, but I did go with John to the hospital.

lJa
Q. And was that ... that was filming a commercial, right?

Mr. Toscher: Wait Your Honor, can I ...


ae
A. Sorry.
ich

Judge Holmes: Take your time. (Witness crying.)


^^^^HAHAHAHAHA FUNNY!!!!GIVE ME A FUCKING BREAK ALREADY!! BOTH
mM

BRANCA AND HER ARE SO GOOD AT TURNING ON THE CROCADILE TEARS,


PATHETIC, BOTH TRYING TO BE MICHAEL JACKSON!!^^^^^^^^^NOT!! Michaels tears
were from deep sincere emotions

A. Okay.
a
Te

Mr. Weitzman: And you have water up there.

A. Yeah, I have water. Thanks.


w.

Mr. Weitzman:
ww
Q. Okay. You and Mr. Branca were at the hospital to visit Mr. Jackson?

om
A. Yeah, to meet him when he got there, yeah.

n.c
Q. Where did that event take place, here in Los Angeles?

A. Yeah.

so
Q. And what hospital did you all go to?

ck
A. Brotman.

lJa
Q. In Culver City?

A. Yes.
ae
Q. And did that event happen during the term of the tour or before the tour?
ich

A. No, it was actually before the tour. It was while they were filming one of Pepsi's commercials.
mM

Q. And did Michael then go out and complete the tour?

A. Yes, he did.

Q. All right. Do you recall when that period was, that is when the tour started and about when it
a

ended? Not the exact date, just a rough time estimate.


Te

A. It was '84, 1984.


w.

Q. And at the end of that tour, did Michael make an announcement that was significant to his
career?
ww
Mr Camp: Objection, leading.

om
Judge Holmes: Sustained.

n.c
Mr. Weitzman:
Q. Did Michael Jackson tour with his brothers again after that tour?

so
A. No, he did not.

ck
Q. And did he announce publicly that he was not going to tour with his brothers again?

Mr Camp: Objection, leading.

lJa
Mr. Weitzman: Well that's ... ae
Judge Holmes: Overruled.
ich
A. I can answer?

Mr. Weitzman: Yes.


mM

Judge Holmes: Yes.

A. Okay, thank you.


a

Mr. Weitzman:
Te

Q. You can answer it yes or no.


w.

A. Yes.

Q. When did he make that announcement?


ww
om
A. I don't remember exactly when he made the announcement, but it was certainly an
announcement he made.

n.c
Q. Were you involved with the purchase, along with Mr. Branca, of Mr. Jackson's master
recordings?

A. I certainly assisted John in doing the agreement with still CBS Records at the time.

so
Q. So if I can just go through with you. By the way, that was ... that was a big deal when it

ck
happened, was it?

A. It was huge.

lJa
Q. What do you mean huge? ae
A. Well, I mean most artists do not own their master recordings. They're owned by the record
company. So for Michael to actually get back the rights to the recordings that he'd already
ich
delivered on Off the Wall and Thriller, as well as own everything going forward was huge.
There's ... I mean I probably don't know, you know, many other artists who can, if any, that
could actually say that they were able to do that.
mM

Q. Not just own the masters, kind of reach back and take the masters that they'd already recorded
and put them in that box?

A. Exactly, yes.
a

Q. And that was Mr. Branca that came up with that idea and did it?
Te

A. Yes. Mr. Branca did that. He helped Walter Yetnikoff come up with that idea.
w.

Q. He told us that, and Walter Yetnikoff was the chairman at that time ...
ww
A. Of CBS Records.

om
Q. Of CBS Records. And were there any other assets that you were involved with that Mr.
Jackson purchased during that time period 1985?

n.c
A. There were several compositions and music catalogues that Michael purchased. Sly and the
Family Stone catalogue as well as some individual songs like "Runaround Sue" and "The
Wanderer." A company called Double Diamond, and then of course the acquisition in 1985 of

so
ATV Music Group.

ck
Q. And were you involved in assisting Mr. Branca with respect to the purchase of the ATV
catalogue?

lJa
A. Yes. I even went over to London and did some of the due diligence, going through all the old
files and things in London.
ae
Q. And when you say "going through the old files," what do you mean?

A. Looking at all the documents that showed chain of title for the compositions, including
ich
Lennon and McCartney compositions.

Q. How long did that process take?


mM

A. Gosh, I actually don't recall.

Q. Let me just go back for a moment. I forgot to ask you a question. Are the masters only
controlled by a corporate entity?
a
Te

A. We're back on Michael's masters?

Q. Yeah, back on Michael's masters.


w.

A. Yes. The masters are owned by MJJ Productions, Inc., which is the company that Michael set
ww

up in 1983.
om
Q. And is that still the case today?

A. Yes, it is.

n.c
Q. So the ATV catalogue was purchased, and did you ever talk to Michael about that purchase?

so
A. Yes.

ck
Q. What do you remember about those conversations?

A. I remember that Michael made me try to sing. He had some of the songs, but just I mean

lJa
overall, I mean it was ... that was a significant milestone in him reaching towards a goal that he
had set for himself when he first started buying the catalogues that he wanted to some day be the
number one publisher, music publisher in the world. So you know, buying a catalogue like ATV
with not only the Beatles songs, which of course were huge, 251 of them actually, but also it had
ae
things like Little Richard and all kinds of other music, Downtown, that everybody remembers,
all the ... some of these other songs that are all ... it was an amazing company. So he was
very excited about it.
ich

Q. So the masters were in one corporate entity?


mM

A. Correct.

Q. What about the compositions, songs he wrote?


a

A. The songs he wrote are under a company called Mijac Music, which is actually a d/b/a for
him originally. It's not a separate corporate entity.
Te

Q. And Mijac is still in existence and owns the publishing rights?


w.

A. It is.
ww
Q. And normally do performers own all of their publishing rights?

om
A. Well, the performer doesn't own the publishing rights. The songwriter owns the publishing
rights.

n.c
Q. Sorry, I misspoke. The writer?

so
A. Yes. That's where it starts. As the originator, as the creator of the work, the copyright starts
with the songwriter. If a songwriter has an agreement with the publisher, a third party publisher,
the publisher may actually own the songs. It depends on how the songwriter, you know, makes a

ck
deal with the publisher.

Q. So now we're in 1985, we're on 1985.

lJa
A. Okay.
ae
Q. Was Michael working on an album then or getting ready for a tour?
ich
A. 1985 post Victory Tour, he started work on the "Bad" album, which was released in 1987.

Q. And were you involved in any of that? I don't mean creatively, but you know what I mean.
mM

A. In that case there was a producer agreement that had to be done, which wasn't the case for
Thriller. So there was a producer agreement with Quincy Jones that was done. There were also ...
his publishing agreement with Warner-Chappell was already in place, but there were certain
things that needed to be done. For example, he did a French and Spanish language version of one
of his compositions, "I Just Can't Stop Loving You." So I did the agreements with the Spanish
a

composer and the French composer, to write the foreign language lyrics. So I did those
Te

agreements, working with Sony Music to make sure they have all the information on the credits
that they needed for the album package, and again there was production of short films starting
with "Bad."
w.

Q. So you with Mr. Branca did all of that?


ww
A. Yes.

om
Q. All the "Bad." The Quincy Jones, all the other producer agreements. What else was involved
with the Bad album that you all did?

n.c
A. The album itself, that's really all there was to do was really the producer agreement, because
at that point that was, you know, before the existence of things like sampling and things like that.
So you didn't have like today, if you were doing an album today, it's very common for an artist to

so
sample or take a piece of another recording or another composition and incorporate or interpolate
it into their own. So there's a lot more paperwork required for all of those clearances. That wasn't
the case back in 1987. It was a much more straightforward process. So Michael and the

ck
musicians and the producers and engineers went in the studio and recorded the compositions.

Q. Do you remember or do you know how many songs were recorded during the Bad album

lJa
sessions?

A. Exactly? No, I do not.


ae
Q. Do you know if it was more than was actually on the album?
ich

A. Sure, yes. There would have been other songs that would have been started. There was there
wasn't anything else that was ultimately completed and ready for release, because once the
decision as to which compositions or recordings were going to be on the album, those were the
mM

ones that they continued to work on, and the other recordings fell to the wayside and were put
away.

Q. And when you say "put away," you don't mean put away, you mean put into an archive or
vault or wherever you all store ...
a
Te

A. Put somewhere, correct.

Q. Got it. Were you involved at all with the Captain Eo project?
w.

A. Yes.
ww
Q. Tell us about that?

om
A. Captain Eo was a film that Michael did for Disney, for them to show at the theme parks, and it
was in Los Angeles. It was put into Tomorrowland in the theater there, and ran there. It was a

n.c
short film. It was 3D. It was a 3D project which I think is one of the things that was really
exciting for Michael, and he had the opportunity to work with Francis Ford Coppola and George
Lucas, which was exciting for him. I think working in the film industry was something that
always intrigued and something he always wanted to do. So working with people of that caliber,
just as he had done with John Landis and Martin Scorsese, you know, these are two more, two

so
other people.

ck
Q. Was Michael paid for the Captain Eo film?

A. Sure. He was hired as an actor and was paid performing fees like any actor hired for any

lJa
movie.

Q. So this was not a name and likeness merchandise deal?


ae
A. No. This was personal services. This is the same as Harrison Ford being hired to work in Star
ich
Wars.

Q. And does he still get royalties from that?


mM

A. No. He got paid his compensation for his services, and that's all he was paid in terms of the
film. There's no royalties. They don't charge, you know. They don't pay him for how many times
they show it or anything like that.

Q. So after the Bad album sessions, was there a tour?


a
Te

A. There was, his first solo tour.


w.

Q. And did he have a sponsor for that tour?

A. He did. He had a sponsorship deal with Pepsi again.


ww
om
Q. Did he have tour merchandising for that tour?

A. He did.

n.c
Q. Do you recall who that was with?

so
A. I believe that deal was with Winterland.

ck
Q. With Winterland?

A. Uh-huh.

lJa
Q. And was that tour successful in terms of ticket sales?
ae
A. Yes, it was. It was considered, you know, one of the biggest tours ever.
ich
Q. And was it successful financially?

A. In terms of grossing?
mM

Q. Yes.

A. Yes.
a

Q. Did anybody ... well Michael got paid, right?


Te

A. Yes, he did.
w.

Q. Did anybody lose any money on that tour?


ww
A. Not that I'm aware of.

om
Q. Okay. So that was a successful tour ticket-wise, financially?

n.c
A. Yes.

Q. And was successful also in sales of tour merchandise?

so
A. I don't actually recall what the merchandising sales turned out to be but I ...

ck
Q. There would have been an advance pay right? Maybe not back then I would imagine.

lJa
A. There probably was. I honestly don't recall the details of that particular deal.

Q. Okay, and at that time, now we're talking '87-'88.


ae
A. Okay.
ich

Q. Was Michael still getting offers for the name and likeness, general merchandise, personal
appearances?
mM

Mr Camp: Objection, compound.

Judge Holmes: Sustained.


a

Mr. Weitzman:
Te

Q. Was Michael Jackson getting any offers, to the best of your recollection, for name and
likeness type opportunities?
w.

A. Not like it had ... not like it had been a few years earlier. I mean there were still poster deals
and calendars and some of the standard paraphernalia that you generally see, or were seeing at
the time, and the deal with Stadium Management now 476 Entertainment Properties was still in
ww

effect at that point. So there weren't really a lot of third party deals being done.
om
Q. After the Bad tour ended, which was 1988 some time, right?

A. Uh-huh, yes.

n.c
Q. By the way, were you involved at all or did you talk to Michael about the purchase of
Neverland?

so
A. I was not involved in the purchase of Neverland.

ck
Q. Was it something Mr. Branca helped do?

lJa
A. He did.

Q. Did you ever talk to Michael about the purchase of Neverland?


ae
A. After he purchased it. I don't recall talking to him about it before he purchased it.
ich

Q. What was the next project you recall working with Michael on after the Bad tour completed?
mM

A. He had started working on recording material for his next album, which originally was
actually supposed to be a greatest hits album, and we were involved in working on the producer
agreement for that. But shortly thereafter we took a break.

Q. And when you say "took a break," Mr. Jackson had some down time?
a
Te

A. Actually, I referring to Mr. Jackson and our separating ways for a little while.

Q. I see. Somebody else represented him during that time period?


w.

A. Correct.
ww
Q. Mr. Branca has already told us about that.

om
A. Okay.

n.c
Q. Were you involved with the LA. Gear deal?

A. We were initially, but that was also transitioned over to the lawyers that took over Michael's

so
business.

Q. Okay. So you really can't speak to it, other than what you've heard or read, can't speak to the

ck
success or lack of success of the LA. Gear deal?

lJa
A. Other than ...

Q. Other than what you've read? ae


A. Other than what's publicly known in terms of that it going into litigation between the parties.
ich

Q. And were you involved at all in the Dangerous tour?

A. No.
mM

Q. Okay. Do you know whether or not Michael Jackson had a tour sponsor in the Dangerous
tour?
a

A. I know that Pepsi was the tour sponsor. Look at the tickets, look at the advertisements. I mean
just from general public.
Te

Q. In 1993, did you all get back involved representing Michael Jackson?
w.

A. We did.
ww
Q. In 1993, were you involved representing Mr. Jackson when the Chandler allegations

om
surfaced?

A. When they surfaced, no.

n.c
Q. Shortly thereafter, did you and Mr. Branca

so
A. It was after the ...

Q. ... and that team come back into representing Mr. Jackson?

ck
A. Yes.

lJa
Q. After the Chandler allegations surfaced and however they were disposed of, were you
working with Mr. Jackson to go back out on tour?
ae
A. Well, there was the HIStory album which came first.
ich

Q. Okay, and what year was that?

A. '94-'95.
mM

Q. Was the album released in '94?

A. No. That's when he was working on it.


a
Te

Q. Began to work on it.

A. Correct, sorry.
w.

Q. The sessions were late '94 and '95, or the writing and the sessions?
ww
A. Correct.

om
Q. Yes?

n.c
A. Correct.

Q. And did the Chandler allegations, at least with respect to how you observe it, have an impact

so
on Mr. Jackson's ability to get sponsors with the tour?

A. For the History tour?

ck
Q. Yes.

lJa
A. There was no sponsor for the History tour. So I ...
ae
Q. Did you try to get a sponsor for the History tour?
ich
A. Yes.

Q. And you were not successful?


mM

A. We were not successful at this time.

Q. Why do you think you were not successful?


a

A. Because unfortunately fairly or not, which for me was not, I mean ...
Te

Q. None of us believed the allegations, at least you and myself and Mr. Branca and the team. But
did it have an impact on your ability to get sponsors for the tour?
w.

A. Yes. Unfortunately Michael, who had this image, had built an image of effectively innocence
and child-likeness and, you know, best behavior, he wasn't like, you know, Mick Jagger and
ww
Keith Richard of the Rolling Stones, who had the bad boy image. So you could get away with

om
certain things and still have people wanting to, you know, use your name and likeness and
promote their products because they wanted that image. With Michael, it was a different image
and when those allegations happened, as unfair as it was the idea of having his name connected
to their brands was something that companies weren't interested in.

n.c
Q. And then did you continue to work with Michael Jackson for the next several years after you
returned in '93?

so
A. Yes.

ck
Q. Did you continue to work for Michael with Mr. Branca for a number of years?

lJa
A. Yes.

Q. Okay, and were you able to make any general merchandising name and likeness deals
ae
between the time you resumed working for Mr. Jackson and the time you all stopped working for
Mr. Jackson, which Mr. Branca told us the other day was some time in 2003, '04 or '05?
ich
A. At the time of the HIStory tour and we did do a deal with Sony ...

Q. Sony Signatures.
mM

A. Sony Signatures or Signatures Network. I can't remember which name it was at the time, and
that was primarily a tour merchandising deal. They wanted to do the tour merchandise, and
because we hadn't been able to really get anything going on the retail side, we also made the deal
with them for retail rights as well, for them to effectively function as an agent to go out and find
retail deals. So once we did that deal, we were no longer, you know, trying to go out and get third
a

party deals because we effectively put them in charge of doing that.


Te

Q. Did they give Michael an advance?


w.

A. They did give him an advance, but it was tied primarily to performance on the tour. Generally,
and this is true in most tour merchandising agreements, the guarantees that you get from the tour
merchandising company are conditioned on performing before a certain number of people. It's
ww
called a performance guaranty, and the same thing was true in Michael's agreement with Sony

om
Signatures. So there was a performance guaranty so that if he didn't perform before, and I don't
remember what the exact guaranty was, if he didn't meet the conditions, then he would have
actually had to pay back part of the advance for not meeting ...

n.c
Q. So did he in fact pay back some money to Sony?

A. He ultimately at the end of it he did have to pay back because they did not recoup the full

so
advance.

ck
Q. Do you remember how much he had to pay back?

A. I don't remember the exact amount. I believe it was at least a couple of million dollars.

lJa
Q. You were working for Mr. Branca, with Mr. Branca and Mr. Jackson during the Invincible
album sessions?
ae
A. Yes.
ich

Q. Was there ever an Invincible ... was there ever a tour in support of the Invincible album?

A. No, there wasn't.


mM

Q. Did you discuss with Mr. Jackson why there wasn't?

Mr Camp: Objection, leading.


a
Te

Judge Holmes: Overruled.

Mr. Weitzman:
w.

Q. Why there wasn't a tour in support of the Invincible album?


ww
A. We had a few different conversations at different times. I think generally I would say that at

om
that point, Michael already had kids and going back out on the road and doing more tours at that
point was not something that he really wanted to do. He was tired. He'd been doing ... he'd
been an artist, as he reminded me on several occasions, he'd been in this career for several
decades and you know, it was time for other things.

n.c
Q. So was it your impression that Michael at that time didn't want to go out and tour?

so
A. That's correct.

ck
Q. Now talk about the ATV catalogue.

A. Okay.

lJa
Q. It's a different part of the business, and in 1995, were you involved at all, along with Mr.
Branca and others, with the Sony/ATV merger?
ae
A. Yes.
ich

Q. What did you do with respect to that merger?

A. I was, spent a significant amount of time in New York, staying at the Pierre Hotel actually,
mM

working on the various pieces of the deal and sitting and negotiating with John and the folks at
Sony and 484 their lawyers, and working with all kinds of corporate and tax people, you know.
It's forming a worldwide music publishing business. It was a very involved process.

Q. Okay. Now before that Sony/ATV deal, the Chandler allegations had surfaced; correct?
a
Te

A. Yes.

Q. What was Michael's financial situation like during that time frame?
w.

A. Not good.
ww
om
Q. What does "not good" mean? I'm not looking for dollars, just a description.

A. He was spending more money than he was making.

n.c
Q. And as a result of the Sony/ATV deal, was Michael able to realize some cash from the deal?

so
A. Yes, a significant amount of cash, which was a good ... I mean it was a great deal on a
number of different levels, but that was certainly one of them.

ck
Q. Tell us why it was a great deal including the cash component?

lJa
A. Well, in addition to the cash component, it was also ... I mean as I mentioned earlier, you
know, Michael's goal going all the way back to the early 1980's of wanting to become the
number one publisher of the world. Well here, he was taking a huge step forward in that direction
by partnering with somebody who was now going to be funding all of the acquisitions, all of the
ae
operations, and he was a 50 percent equal owner of this company and all of its assets. That was a
big deal.
ich

Q. I don't disagree. How much cash did he pull out?

A. About 115 million.


mM

Q. And in 1995 when that deal was made, he was a 50 percent owner?

A. Correct.
a
Te

Q. And the concessions that we've heard about in this lawsuit, such as the purchase option
agreement and things like that weren't in existence in 1995?
w.

A. No. We did a great deal in 1995. Michael was, you know, I mean it was ... it was amazing. I
mean I remember sitting with him the night we signed the papers.
ww
Q. I don't think I've heard that story, so for all of us. What do you mean? You were there at the

om
closing?

A. Yeah. It was at night and it was ... he was it was in New York, and we went to the

n.c
Presidential suite at the Four Seasons Hotel and there's a big dining room that's part of the suite,
and I had gotten there a little early and I mean there was lots of documents that had to be signed,
and I had them laid out all around the edge of the dining room table with multiple pens. So when
he walked in the room and Dave Johnson, who signed all the papers on behalf of Sony was there,
and he and John, you know, were there when Michael first got there and then they went to talk. I

so
sat with Michael signing hundreds of documents and we were talking about it and it was, you
know, the realization of ... the realization of the fact that he actually was now in a position to
accomplish this goal that, you know, seemed impossible in the beginning, when he first said it,

ck
you know. I mean when he was sitting there and signing all the papers, he was actually ... he
was ... he was actually saying "the impossible dream."

lJa
Q. During that process of negotiating the Sony/ATV deal, were there other lawyers besides Mr.
Branca and the Ziffren firm involved, transactional corporate lawyers, tax lawyers?
ae
A. Sure. There was corporate lawyers out of Chicago, the Katten firm, and then because of the
international ramifications and some of the tax issues, we had ... there was a law firm out of the
UK that we had actually used for ...
ich

Q. Was that Mr. Lubar?


mM

A. Yeah. We had used him for the acquisition in 1985 and so we actually brought him back in to
help us with some of the foreign entity creations and stuff like that, that tax stuff. I think his firm
was Morgan, Lewis and Bockius, I think.

Q. So you had this team of lawyers. I was going to say New York lawyers, but it was Chicago
a

lawyers?
Te

A. Chicago, yeah.
w.

Q. And London lawyers, Mr. Branca and the Ziffren firm, and yourself and Sony. Who were they
represented by?
ww
A. Their outside counsel was Rosenman Colin at the time, which ultimately joined with Katten

om
ultimately.

Q. Which Katten ended up merging with?

n.c
A. Yeah.

so
Q. Okay. At the time, let me just see what you wrote here. Thank you. Was there a ... was there
a reason that Michael Jackson, with Mr. Branca's help and your help, did this ... did this merger
with Sony?

ck
A. Well, I mean there ...

lJa
A. He needed the money.

Mr. Weitzman:
ae
Q. That's what I mean to ask. I tried to be subtle about it. I guess I was less subtle than I could
have been.
ich

A. Yeah.
mM

Q. Okay. When did you stop working with Mr. Jackson? Again, not a day but kind of a time.

A. In terms of day-to-day stuff, it would have been probably 2004-2005, because I did work on
the Ultimate Collection, which was the compilation package that was released by Sony Music in
2004. So I would have been after that.
a
Te

Q. And from afar, did you watch or follow the allegations and then the trial in 2005?

A. Yes.
w.

Q. Did you also watch the Martin Bashir, I think it was his name, documentary?
ww
A. Yes.

om
Q. I see you're shaking your head. Why are you shaking your head?

n.c
A. Because it was painful. Martin Bashir did a hatchet job on Michael Jackson in my opinion.

Q. I think a lot of people share that opinion. Were you involved at all in any of the rebuttal that

so
Michael Jackson gave to him after the Bashir documentary?

A. You mean the TV program?

ck
Q. I do.

lJa
A. No.
ae
Q. All right. Did you talk to Michael at all between the time he was acquitted in 2005 and the
day that he passed away?
ich

A. No.

Q. Okay. How did you learn of his death?


mM

A. When I saw the reports on television, of him being taken to the hospital.

Q. And when did you first talk to Mr. Branca about Michael's passing?
a
Te

A. I think it was that day. He was in Mexico on vacation.

Q. And when did you become involved with the working with Mr. Jackson's estate after his
w.

death?

A. When ... that's ...


ww
om
Q. Not an exact date, just a time.

A. Yeah. I mean early July.

n.c
Q. And we all went to the memorial together; correct?

so
A. I did not go to the memorial.

ck
Q. You did not go. Why?

A. I didn't want to. Because I didn't want to be there. He was my friend.

lJa
Q. So when did you actually begin to do some work with the Estate?
ae
A. There was a whole issue about whether, you know, the wills and all that stuff. So I'm not
really sure how to answer you because ...
ich

Q. Well that's a good enough answer.


mM

A. Okay, okay.

Q. When was ... do you recall the first project you worked on or issue you worked on for the
Estate, for Mr. Branca and Mr. McClain?
a

A. It was really ... actually the first thing I did was trying to wrangle information on files and
Te

where things were and who had been doing what to try to corral information, so that John and
John and everybody on the team could start to understand what the situation was. So that, I
would say that was probably the first thing I did.
w.

Q. And when you say "what the situation was," were there a number of financial and legal issues
that had to be dealt with?
ww
A. Well, in addition to just determining whether or not the will that we had was in fact Michael's

om
final will, assuming that it was there were, you know, there were ... we didn't know what his
financial situation was, other than obviously what we were able to learn about the loans that he
had on Mijac, the loans on Sony/ATV. The fact that he didn't actually even own Neverland
anymore, the money that had been put up by AEG for the tour that now wasn't happening and

n.c
having to deal with, you know, what was somewhere between 30 and 40 million dollars of debt
to them. I mean there were just ...

Q. A lot to do?

so
A. A lot to do.

ck
Q. Did you research to see whether there were any ... rephrase. The 02 Tour, the "This Is It"
tour had been set in motion; correct?

lJa
A. Correct. ae
Q. And after Michael passed away, did you deal with at all with AEG or Bravado about tour
merchandise?
ich

A. At some point, yes.


mM

Q. Would that have been after the memorial or before?

A. I know I had conversations with AEG about the memorial. I don't ... so but I think
everything else came after the memorial.
a

Mr. Weitzman: Okay. So by the way just so Your Honor knows, I'm probably going to have
Te

another hour. So I'd prefer not to go to ten to 7:00 and she's going to be here tomorrow
regardless, but as they say in the trade, you're the judge.
w.

Judge Holmes: Go on.

Mr. Weitzman: That's not the response I was looking for.


ww
om
Mr. Weitzman: Okay. Let me just take a moment. Maybe I can move through some of this
faster.

n.c
A. Can I ... I'm sorry. Can I take a short ...

Judge Holmes: Comfort break.

so
Mr. Weitzman: You're definitely going to have to ask the Judge.

ck
A. Thank you. Thank you, Your Honor.

lJa
Judge Holmes: Thank you for your ... . Yes, of course you may.

A. Thank you.
ae
Court Clerk: All rise.
ich

RECESS
POOR INTELLEIGENT GIRL, HER LIL BRAIN WAS HURTING HER!!
mM

Court Clerk: All rise.

Judge Holmes: Be seated.

Mr. Weitzman: Ms. Langford, after Mr. Jackson died, did you look to determine whether or not
a

Mr. Jackson had any "irons in the fire," a phrase that I heard from representatives of the IRS. Did
Te

he have any irons in he fire at the time he died?

Mr Camp: Objection, vague.


w.

Judge Holmes: Overruled.


ww
A. Other than the planned concert tour that didn't happen, I'm not aware of any irons in the fire.

om
Mr. Weitzman:

n.c
Q. By irons in the fire, tell me what you think was meant?

A. Deals pending, deals in process.

so
Q. And does that include the tour merchandise?

ck
A. The tour merchandise was actually included. Michael had granted AEG the right to do the
tour merchandising agreement under the agreement between the Michael Jackson company and

lJa
AEG.

Q. So that was part of the 02 AEG tour deal?


ae
A. Correct, correct.
ich

Q. There was no Cirque de Soleil deal in place?

A. No.
mM

Q. No name and likeness deal in place?

A. Not that I had any knowledge of, nope.


a
Te

Q. At some point ... well, let me back up. The Internal Revenue Service has alleged through
their expert that there's 180-some unreleased completed recordings that would allow the Estate to
release or someone, some hypothetical buyer ten albums. Do you know of any such unreleased
completed songs that you could put on an album?
w.

A. In my opinion, that's ludicrous.


ww
Q. That's ludicrous?

om
A. Ludicrous.

n.c
Q. Okay, but does that mean there's no unreleased completed songs that you're aware of?

A. There's not ... anything completed, finished, masters ready to put out on records do not

so
exist.

Q. And part of your responsibilities over the last seven years was to archive the remaining music

ck
or tracks, whatever word you want to use, of Michael Jackson's?

lJa
A. Yes. To pull together everything and identify what we could, yes.

Q. Can you tell us what you did? ae


A. Well, it didn't start immediately because of all the other things that were going on, just in the
world of the Estate in terms of what we were talking about earlier with trying to deal with the
ich
debt and all these other things. But we did ... I did start to at least try to pull things and put
them all into place.

Q. Was that part of the deal that was made with Sony, Sony Music, that is to look for or try to
mM

find unreleased completed songs?

A. Yes, yes. We were required under the agreement.


a

Q. I used the word "songs," sorry.


Te

A. That's okay. I was going to correct you in my answer but ...


w.

Q. Go ahead.
ww
A. Part of the agreement with Sony was that they would be ... that they and we would search

om
the archives and they would have access to unreleased recordings to find material that would be
suitable for release.

n.c
Q. And were you involved with Mr. Branca, 496 working for Mr. Branca in the negotiations of
the Sony Music deal?

A. Yes, yes.

so
Q. And did it require a minimum number or a number of unreleased songs, assuming you could

ck
find them?

A. The agreement contemplated that the releases would include two what we call studio albums,

lJa
which effectively mean albums of previously unrecorded or unreleased masters. Under the
agreement, it was contemplated that there would be somewhere between 10 and 13 tracks on
each of two albums. So somewhere between 20 and 26 tracks is what was contemplated.
ae
Q. And were you able to find unreleased recordings? By the way recordings, you mean music
with Michael Jackson's voice?
ich

A. Yes. Well, all of the recordings under the terms of the agreement were required to be ... to
embody performances by Michael Jackson. We could not deliver recordings by anybody other
than Michael Jackson.
mM

Q. And that would have been Michael Jackson's voice on songs he wrote or Michael Jackson's
voice on songs someone else wrote?

A. It's irrelevant to Sony Music who the songwriter is. That's not something that they have any
a

interest or care about. That's not relevant for their purposes. It never was.
Te

Q. So it's just, and I'm saying just in the narrowing of it, it was just Michael Jackson's voice on a
recording?
w.

A. Performances. His performances on masters of compositions, regardless of who the


songwriter or composer of the composition was.
ww
om
Q. So did you begin to look for that type of product?

A. For the initial ... yes. For the initial album that was released, which was ultimately called

n.c
"Michael," that came very early on in the process. That was released in 2010, and that was before
we'd been in a position to really do serious searching of the archives for the material that had
been corralled, and in large part that was ... that came from material that we were able to
source. For example, either from material that Sony had copies of in their archives, because their

so
archives were actually organized, or by talking to people. For example, like a producer who had
been working with Michael. There was a young producer who goes by the name "Nephew," and
he was somebody who was working with Michael. So by talking to him, we were able to find out
some of the tracks, recordings that he had been working on with Michael most recently, and

ck
source some of that, which is some of the material that wound up on the Michael album.

lJa
Q. And after that first album, what efforts were made to locate whatever recordings existed?

A. Which by the way, the Michael album had ten tracks on it.
ae
Q. Ten previously unreleased ...
ich

A. Yes.

Q. ... Michael recordings?


mM

A. Correct.

Q. Then what efforts were expended to look for and find some more completed recordings?
a
Te

A. We then put together a team of archive experts, met with people from the Grammy
Foundation, Grammy Museum who were able to give us guidance in terms of people to talk to,
to help come in and work with us in pulling together the material and being able to organize it
and do that. So we put together a team and ultimately hired them and spent a considerable
w.

amount of money to put all of the recordings that we could find into one location and then
organize them.
ww
Q. And how long did that process take?

om
A. A long time. I don't, I can't tell you exactly how long it took actually. It was a long process.

n.c
Q. And did you find any completed unreleased Michael Jackson recordings in that process?

A. Nothing that we found was actually completed and ready for release. The recordings that we

so
found were in various stages of work. They were all work in progress.

Q. What does that mean for those of us that aren't ...

ck
A. Work in progress?

lJa
Q. Yeah.
ae
A. For example, you might find tracks that have a drum loop line. You might find tracks that
have music and no vocals. You might find tracks that have music and little bit of vocal on the
chorus, but Michael just either humming or doing nothing during the rest of the song. So there's
ich
no verses. Or you might have Michael doing beat boxing.

Q. What's beat boxing?


mM

A. Beat boxing ... and I will not do it ... beat boxing was ... Michael was really good at
being able to, with his voice, make sounds he wanted, you know. I want the guitar to do this or I
want the drums to do that or, you know, and when it came to the lyrics of a composition, he
would make sounds, but they weren't real words. So I mean there were things like that. They're in
very ... so there's a whole array of different stages of completion or non-completion that a work
a

might be in. But there was nothing sitting on the shelf going okay, here. I can take this and give it
Te

to the plant to master and press and send out. There was nothing like that.

Q. Was there a second album of unreleased material?


w.

A. There was. In 2014 there was an album release called "Escape," which had a total of eight
tracks that had not been previously released.
ww
om
Q. And that included or those tracks were included Michael Jackson vocal recordings that had
not been released; correct?

n.c
A. Correct.

Q. And did those tracks all need to be produced?

so
A. Yes, they all needed to be produced. Epic Records, the division of Sony Music that worked
on the album, hired a producer known as Timbaland to come in and produce the bulk of the

ck
masters. There was a couple of other producers hired to do specific tracks. Rodney Jerkins
worked on one track in particular, "Escape," and there's a Swedish duo, producer duo whose
name escapes me at the moment, who came in and did "Place With No Name." But the rest of the

lJa
album was, and then John McClain produced one track "Love Never Felt So Good," which was
also a version of that produced by Timbaland.

Q. Would it be valuable to the Estate if we could find and release Michael Jackson recordings?
ae
A. Absolutely. If the Estate had, I'm sorry, what was the number, a hundred and ...
ich

Q. It was 180-some.
mM

A. 88.

Mr Camp: Objection. This calls for speculation, Your Honor.


a

Mr. Weitzman: As opposed to the expert report?


Te

Judge Holmes: Let him ask the question. No, you can ask the question. I'll listen to the question.
w.

Mr. Weitzman: Thank you. What I said was as opposed to the expert's report.

Judge Holmes: Now, now.


ww
om
Mr. Weitzman: Well, I get a couple of shots in.

A. It's getting late.

n.c
Mr. Weitzman:
Q. If we had 180 or 80 or 8 more Michael Jackson recordings, would it be valuable to the Estate

so
if we could release them?

A. Of course it would make sense for the Estate to release everything that it ... that was

ck
available to it that was in an ... that was not ... that was both technically and commercially
satisfactory for release. There's ...

lJa
Q. They don't exist?

A. They don't exist, I mean which is why Escape has eight different recordings of eight different
ae
compositions, as opposed to even the ten that was originally contemplated.
ich
Q. Were you aware ... first of all, do you know who Mr. Tohme Tohme is?

A. I know who he is, yes.


mM

Q. And you've never met him I assume?

A. I did not. I've never met him.


a

Q. But you know who he is. He has indicated that he believes when Michael Jackson died, there
Te

was an application from My Space and Facebook called What Was It? Are you familiar with
that?
w.

A. I'm familiar with a My Space contest that was run by Sony Music to promote the Thriller 25
release, which was a one week dance contest that was hosted on My Space. It wasn't a
commercial or for profit thing. It was a promotion thing for the release of Thriller 25. It lasted a
ww

week. There was no money that was paid for it.


om
Q. And are you familiar with the German teen publication called Bravo?

A. I can't say that I read it on a regular basis, but I am aware that there was a magazine on

n.c
Michael Jackson that they released, which I assume is similar to the releases by Newsweek or
Time or any of the other publications who have put out their Michael Jackson dedicated issues at
one point or another.

so
Q. Certainly wouldn't be a revenue source for the Estate of Michael Jackson?

ck
A. Revenue source for them maybe, but certainly not for us.

Q. And were you aware, again I'm told this is what Mr. Tohme told representatives of the IRS or

lJa
experts they hired, of a toy deal that was in place from a company called Hot Toys when Michael
passed away?
ae
A. As I came to learn later, there was ... there was actually a company called EC Bizz in Japan,
which is a company that we became aware of that was claiming to have rights to Michael
Jackson's name and likeness, and they did enter into an agreement with Hot Toys and gave them
ich
rights. EC Bizz did not have a license themselves, so that had nothing to do with Michael or the
Estate until we became aware of it and were able to negotiate a deal with Hot Toys to what I call
convert them to a legitimate licensee.
mM

Q. By the way, has that been a great source of revenue for the Estate?

A. Not significant, no.


a

Q. What do you mean by "not significant," like what?


Te

A. Maybe a couple of hundred thousand dollars.


w.

Q. One moment. Moving away from the subjects we've talked about, in the fall of 2009, the
"This Is It" documentary was released; correct?
ww
A. Yes.

om
Q. And were you ... did you, Ms. Langford, perceive that event and the public response to it as
kind of a rebranding of Michael Jackson?

n.c
Mr Camp: Objection, Your Honor. This calls for an expert opinion almost.

so
Mr. Weitzman: It certainly does not. It's a business

Judge Holmes: No, that's overruled. She can answer it.

ck
A. I'm sorry, Mr. Weitzman. Can you tell me the question again?

lJa
Mr. Weitzman:
Q. I can. I can ask it again.
ae
A. Thank you.
ich

Q. Did you perceive the release and success of the documentary "This Is It" as the beginning of a
rebranding, in effect, of Michael Jackson?
mM

A. Before or after it was released?

Q. After.
a

A. Honestly, when the film first premiered and we all went to see it, I wasn't really sure what the
Te

reaction people would have to it was, other than novelty interest perhaps. The day ... I
remember the morning after the premier, and I was here in L

A. and I was in my rental car and I was driving to the Ziffren offices and I was listening to the
w.

DJs on the radio and they were talking about the premier and the movie, and how it and I was
actually shocked at how they ... at the fact that they were not being negative, because I actually
wasn't sure how people would react to it. I mean I think it was nice to know that people were
ww
reacting positively to it, but it didn't seem to me to be something that would change the

om
landscape for purposes of his name and likeness, and what we would be able to do with that. The
interest in his music, I think, was what we really saw happen. But music is not the same as name
and likeness.

n.c
Q. And so do you credit the success and the public response to "This Is It" for allowing us to
make a Cirque deal, for example?

so
A. Well again, the Cirque deal is about Michael's music. It's not about name and likeness. So I
think the music has always stood on its own, and it doesn't ... they're two different things.

ck
Q. And since Michael's passed away, since "This Is It," since Cirque and the two shows which
you've heard about are more in the residency show, have you made any significant name and
likeness deals for the Estate of Michael Jackson? 507

lJa
A. There's only one deal that I would say is significant, but ...
ae
Q. Which one is that?
ich
A. That is the deal for the Immortal, originally with Bally's and now with ScientificGames,
which is slot machines.
mM

Q. Slot machines. That was made through Bravado?

A. Originally it was made through Bravado, yes. But that too was also tied to music.

Q. Well, doesn't ... let me try again. Don't the slot machines involve music and video?
a
Te

A. Yes.

Q. So it's ...
w.

A. It's split.
ww
om
Q. Split between name and likeness in the music and the video?

A. Correct.

n.c
Q. Other than that, are there any name and likeness deals that you can think of of any
significance?

so
A. There's nothing else that I would call significant.

ck
Q. Have you tried to make name and likeness deals since Michael died through today?

lJa
A. Yes. We continue to try to do that. We did it with Bravado and when we, you know, and even
when we were with Bravado, I mean I think that it's interesting. We did the deal with Bravado
and it was supposed to be a three year deal. They paid $15 million in advances between what
they paid directly to the Estate and what they paid to AEG, which the Estate shared in, and
ae
instead it being a three year deal, it took five years to recoup because the deals, the revenues
weren't there.
ich

Q. The bottom line is if wouldn't have been for the slot machine, the general merchandise deal
would not have been successful?
mM

A. Correct.

Q. Is that your opinion?


a

A. Yes.
Te

Q. And Bravado wouldn't have recouped probably through today; correct?


w.

A. Correct.
ww
Q. Now okay. And do we have ... strike that. Are you aware that since Michael passed away

om
through today, there have been three lawsuits filed by individuals, two men and one woman,
alleging that Michael molested them 20-some years ago?

n.c
A. Yes.

Q. And have those lawsuits had an impact on the Estate's ability, at least in your opinion, to get
any name and likeness endorsements, sponsor deals?

so
Mr Camp: Objection, calls for speculation.

ck
Judge Holmes: Sustained.

lJa
Mr. Weitzman: Part of her business, Your Honor, is helping to try and obtain those deals for
the Estate.
ae
Judge Holmes: Don't ask her opinion then; ask if, to the best of her knowledge, it has in fact
interfered with name and likeness deals.
ich

Mr. Weitzman: Would you please answer the Judge's question

A. Yes, it has, and I can give you two very small examples.
mM

Mr. Weitzman: Sure.

Judge Holmes: That's what we're looking for.


a
Te

A. Okay, there you go.

Mr. Weitzman: That's right where I was going the whole time
w.

A. Well, you know. Recently generally what seems to happen every year around Michael's
passing is that there's an onslaught of people that regurgitate everything, all of the negative stuff
that's been said about Michael in the past, and tied into the current cases that Howard was ...
ww
that Mr. Weitzman was referring to. In the last year alone, there are two circumstances under

om
which things that were being discussed went away specifically because the licensees said you
know what? We don't want it. We don't think that being attached to ... connected to the Michael
Jackson brand makes sense to us, and they both happened after the ... after this was revisited
last June. One was with a calendar company to put out a calendar, I swear to God, and the second

n.c
one was a shoe company that wanted to use an image of Michael wearing their shoes in
promoting their brand. Then realized after all of this negative publicity came back out that you
know what? Thanks anyway, but never mind. We don't think that that makes ... it would be
good for our brand given this publicity.

so
Q. Were you familiar or are you familiar with the expert reports prepared by Owen Dahl and
Mark Roesler of CMG?

ck
A. Yes.

lJa
Q. Did you provide information to them at their request regarding the Estate of Michael Jackson
or Michael Jackson? ae
A. Yes.
ich
Q. And to the best of your knowledge, was all the information you provided to them accurate?

A. Yes.
mM

Q. Did you read the reports they wrote?

A. Yes.
a
Te

Q. And did they accurately portray what you told them?

A. Yes.
w.

Mr. Weitzman: I have no further questions, Your Honor.


ww
Judge Holmes: Very good. Thank you. Be back here bright and early at ten o'clock tomorrow

om
morning for cross examination.

A. Okay.

n.c
Judge Holmes: Thank you very much. Until then, we're adjourned.

so
ck
February 8th 2017

lJa
Judge Holmes: Go ahead, Mr. Weitzman.

Mr Weitzman: With your permission, I would like to recall Ms. Langford for three to four
ae
minutes at most of direct, and then cross will take place, if that's okay.

Judge Holmes: Technically it stopped. Do you care?


ich
Ms Herbert: We have no objection, but can we take care of one little housekeeping ...

Judge Holmes: Oh, of course. That always goes first. Yeah.

Ms Herbert: ... thing first? Okay. Are we on the record now, Your Honor?
mM

Judge Holmes: Yes we are.

Ms Herbert: Okay. We would like, just for planning purposes, to get an idea of how many more
fact witnesses Petitioner has because they also have five experts ...

Judge Holmes: Indeed.


a

Ms Herbert: ... and we would like to have some time for Respondent to put on its case.
Te

Mr Weitzman: Can I say this? We believe we'll be done with the presentation of our case by
Tuesday ... next Tuesday.
w.

Judge Holmes: Including experts?

Mr Weitzman: Including experts.


ww
Judge Holmes: That work for you?

om
Ms Herbert: Does that include our ability to cross-examine their experts?

Judge Holmes: Yeah.

n.c
Mr Weitzman: Yes. Are you going to cross-examine them?

Judge Holmes: Most expert witness testimony is cross-examination, after all. I have a 20-
minute rule on direct.

so
Ms Herbert: So they're thinking Tuesday.

Mr Weitzman: Yes.

ck
Ms Herbert: And with respect to any ... I know we talked about this briefly ... any rebuttal
cases, that would go after our expert has ... after our case has been presented?

lJa
Judge Holmes: Yes. And that will give you a rejoinder case, sort of one last round.

Ms Herbert: Okay. And if by some chance the ... we're not done by the 24th, does the Court
have any ... ae
Judge Holmes: We can just go late.

Ms Herbert: Just go late.


ich
Judge Holmes: Late, late.

Mr Weitzman: I can tell you how that works, by the way. You ask the Judge to recess earlier,
and if he doesn't, then you go until you finish.
mM

Judge Holmes: That's right.

Ms Herbert: Okay. All right. Thank you, Your Honor.

Mr Weitzman: Okay.

Judge Holmes: A couple ...


a
Te

Mr Toscher: Your Honor?

Judge Holmes: Oh, yes, yes.

Mr Toscher: Just one more point. We're dark on Tuesday the 21st still. Is that ...
w.

Judge Holmes: Yes.

Mr Toscher: Okay.
ww
om
Judge Holmes: That case is not settled. And the floor is yours, Mr. Weitzman.

Mr Weitzman: Thank you, Your Honor.

n.c
DIRECT EXAMINATION

Mr Weitzman:
Q. Ms. Langford.

so
A. Good morning, Mr. Weitzman

Q. Good morning. This morning I asked you about a footnote contained in one of Mr. Anson's

ck
expert's reports in which he quotes Mr. Tohme about Mr. Jackson having plane hangars of
footage. Recall having that discussion this morning?

Mr Camp: Objection, Your Honor. I don't believe this morning was on the record yet.

lJa
Judge Holmes: Oh, no. We're on the ... we were on the record for ...

Mr Camp: No, I'm sorry ... ae


Judge Holmes: ... starting with ...

Mr Camp: I'm sorry. He's referring to something he discussed ...


ich
Judge Holmes: ... at the end of the direct testimony yesterday. Go ahead, Mr. Weitzman.

Mr Weitzman: Thank you, Your Honor.

Mr Weitzman:
mM

Q. Are you aware of Mr. Jackson having plane hangars of footage?

A. No. I have no information on any such thing. There's no such plane hangars full of ... there's
not even a single plane hangar full of footage. The only footage that I'm aware of is the footage
of ... from the various outtakes from the short film shoots that have already been released, the
concerts that have been released, and home movies that Michael took by himself with his
children.
a
Te

Q. Okay. I'm sorry. How many albums did Mr. Jackson release ... solo albums did he release in
his lifetime total?

A. Solo albums?
w.

Q. Yes.

A. Studio albums?
ww
Q. Studio albums, yes. Sorry.

om
A. Six studio albums, seven if you count Blood on the Dance Floor, which was partially a remix
album.

Q. So just for the record, not a test, can you tell us the albums?

n.c
A. Off the Wall, Thriller, Bad, Dangerous, History, Blood on the Dance Floor, Invincible.

Q. And did those ...

so
A. And that was in order, by the way.

Q. Pardon? That was in order?

ck
A. And that was in order, by the way.

Q. I got it. Okay. And you are aware that in Mr. Anson's report ... or are you aware ... sorry ...

lJa
that in Mr. Anson's report he said there's enough unreleased complete recordings to fill up 10
more albums?

A. I did read that in the report, yes. ae


Q. Okay. And do you know of the existence of any such unreleased completed recordings?

A. No. As I said yesterday, there is ... Michael released, during his lifetime, seven albums over
the course of his, effectively, 30-year solo career. There's ...
ich

Q. It just doesn't exist?

A. ... it doesn't exist.


mM

Q. Okay. And how many of the songs that were released were Michael Jackson's compositions, if
you know? Just ... if it ... and it has to be a ... if it has to be a rough number, it will be a rough
number.

A. It will be a rough number.

Q. Okay.
a
Te

A. Give me a minute to do some math in my head.

Q. Okay

A. I would say approximately between 60 and 70 compositions, but not all of those are solely
w.

written by Mr. Jackson.

Q. Okay. So would it be probably less than 50?


ww
A. If you add together the partial shares, I would say that's probably true.

om
Q. And the statement that a rational investor would be willing to ...

Mr Camp: Objection. What statement, Your Honor?

n.c
Mr Weitzman: In Mr. Anson's ...

Judge Holmes: Not yet.

Mr Weitzman: ... expert report. I'm getting there, but that's okay.

so
Mr Camp: I would like to object to this line of questioning regarding Mr. Anson's report
because it assumes facts not in evidence yet, Your Honor.

ck
Judge Holmes: What facts?

Mr Camp: Mr. Anson's report is not in evidence yet.

lJa
Judge Holmes: It's been filed. You can pick from the windup for this one. Just quote it
accurately.

Mr Weitzman: Well that's tough, given the fact I don't have it in front of me. Actually, if you
ae
want the exact quote, can I just take a moment? Because I can find it pretty quickly ... not you
on it, but for the record

Mr Weitzman: I have it here. Your Honor, can you give me a moment to find the exact phrase?
ich
May I proceed, Your Honor?

Mr Weitzman:

Q. I would like to quote something from Mr. Anson's report and then ask a question about it.
mM

Mr Weitzman: But mine, Your Honor, it's at Page 67 of his expert report on New Horizon
Trust III, which is MIJAC, I believe.

Q. Correct?

A. Yes.
a
Te

Q. The quote reads at Page 67 of the report based on my ... it's the first ... or the second full
paragraph on the page. "Based on my analysis of the minimum and total number of Jackson
unreleased songs, the state controls the equivalent of 88.41 to 109.78 master recordings. When
rounded, this corresponds to a range of 8 to 10 post-mortem albums." Do you see that ...
w.

A. Yes.
ww
Q. ... paragraph? Do you know of any Jackson unreleased songs, the phrase here ... I'm

om
assuming that means master recordings ... that are in the possession of the estate that would
equate to roughly 110 songs that the estate could release 8 to 10 post- mortem albums?

A. Not a chance. And I promise you if we could, we would.

n.c
Q. Okay. Now, I also want to reference you to a footnote at Page 34. Okay. So could you read
Footnote 113 to yourself? Yeah, it does go on to the next page. That's where I got confused.
Bottom of Page 33, bottom of Page 34. Just let ...

A. Don't go too fast. I'm a slow reader.

so
Q. Okay.

ck
A. Okay.

Q. Have you had a chance to read the complete footnote?

lJa
A. Yes. That was for him to scroll.

Q. Oh. Could you scroll to the next page?

A. Sorry.
ae
Q. That's the one that starts, "Despite the success"?

A. Yes. Okay.
ich

Q. What did you understand that footnote to say?

A. It's a suggestion by Dr. Tohme that ...


mM

Q. Mr. Tohme.

A. Sorry ...

Q. It's all right.

A. ... Mr. Tohme that Sony was holding royalties due under Michael's recording agreement to be
a

used to cover expenses for the operation of Sony ATV.


Te

Q. Okay. And were the royalties from Sony Music paid to Mr. Jackson used to pay Sony ATV
costs?

A. That's ridiculous. The Sony ... the operation of Sony ATV was solely the responsibility
w.

financially of Sony Music.

Q. So you believe this footnote incorrectly states the reality?


ww
A. Yes, I do.

om
Mr Weitzman: I don't have anything further, Your Honor. In fact, I'm sorry for the confusion
on the other report.

Judge Holmes: Mr. Camp, anything?

n.c
Mr Camp: Yes, Your Honor.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

so
Mr Camp:
Q. Ms. Langford, yesterday you testified that you did not speak to Michael Jackson between

ck
approximately 2002-2003 until his death.

A. No. It was a little later than 2002-2003. I was still working with him in 2004 on the release of
the ultimate collection by Sony.

lJa
Q. So from 2004 until his death?

A. 2004-2005, roughly. I mean, I can't give you an exact date.


ae
Q. And so during that time, you were not involved with his business affairs?

A. We were not involved with his business affairs. That's correct.


ich
Q. Thank you. And yesterday you were talking about the Victory tour. Is it correct that the
Victory tour was Michael Jackson's last tour with his brothers?

A. Yes, it is.
mM

Q. And you also testified, I believe, that, despite strong ticket sales, the promoter of the Victory
tour, Mr. Sullivan, lost a substantial amount of money?

A. Yes, he did.

Q. And ... but Mr. Sullivan had no experience as a concert promoter?


a

A. I don't know what Mr. Sullivan's experience was.


Te

Q. Generally, if a tour sells well, it would be profitable for the promoter?

A. It depends on what the running costs are, what his responsibilities are, what he's ...
w.

Q. But generally, yes? Yes or no?

A. I'm sorry. Can you say the question again?


ww
Q. Generally, if a tour sells well ... if it sells out, the promoter of the tour ... it's profitable for the

om
promoter of the tour.

A. Yes.

Q. And it's possible Mr. Sullivan lost money on the tour due to his poor management skills?

n.c
A. I can't pass judgment on Mr. Sullivan's management skills.

Q. Was Don King also involved in the tour?

so
A. Early on.

Q. And at the outset of the tour, was there a controversy regarding the method of distributing

ck
tickets?

A. Are you referring to the controversy that . among the fans about the cost of purchasing
tickets?

lJa
Q. I believe it was a lottery issue. Was there a lottery issue?

A. There was a limit on the number of tickets that a person could purchase ... or actually a
minimum. You had to buy them in blocks of four.
ae
Q. And it created a controversy.

A. And it created ... and that created a controversy because of the expense. And ultimately, that
ich
resulted in Michael having to go public and contribute all of his share of the monies to charities
so that his fans wouldn't feel like he was ...

Q. So ... but yes, it did create a controversy.


mM

A. Yes.

Q. Thank you. And I believe you also spoke about the clothing line involving Mr. Sullivan
yesterday?

A. That was a separate deal ... separate from the tour. Yes.
a

Q. And did Mr. Sullivan have experience in the clothing industry?


Te

A. Again, I don't know what Mr. Sullivan's history was.

Q. Let's turn to the Pepsi endorsements that you testified about yesterday.
w.

A. Okay.

Q. There was the endorsement for the Bad tour.


ww
A. Yes.

om
Q. And you were familiar with the terms of the Pepsi sponsorship associated with the Bad tour.

A. Yes.

n.c
Q. And that contract required Michael Jackson to film two commercials?

A. Yes.

Q. And did Michael Jackson create a jingle for ... featuring the song Bad?

so
A. Yes, he did.

ck
Q. And am I correct that yesterday you said that Michael Jackson refused to hold a Pepsi can in
the commercial?

A. I actually didn't say that, but that's true.

lJa
Q. Did he allow his image to be used on the can?

A. From the Bad tour? ae


Q. Yes.

A. I don't believe so. No.


ich
Q. And what about the Dangerous tour? You were familiar with the terms of the Pepsi
endorsement for the Dangerous tour?

A. I know that Pepsi was the sponsor for the tour. I was not familiar with the ... that agreement
because we were not representing Michael at the time that agreement was entered into.
mM

Q. Do you know if the terms were consistent with the Bad tour?

A. I didn't look at the agreement. I couldn't answer that for you.

Q. Okay. Thank you. Let's turn to the issues with Thriller that you testified about yesterday. I
believe you testified that if anyone wanted to use Thriller, they would have to get permission
a

from Rod Songs?


Te

A. You're talking about the composition?

Q. I'm talking about the use of the song Thriller.


w.

A. Song meaning composition?

Q. Let me give you a hypothetical. If I go to a bar tonight and sing Thriller at an open
microphone, I would not have to get a license from Rod Song.
ww
om
A. If they have a ... if they have ... if the club has a license from ASCAP or BMI, they already
have a license from whichever society he's a member of. I'm actually not sure what his
performing rights association is.

Q. But if the club has one ... an ASCAP BMI license, I do not need to get a license.

n.c
A. That is the license. You don't need a second license.

Q. No, as the performer, I do not. As the singer at the open mic, I do not need to get a license or
permission.

so
A. It's covered by the license that the club has ...

ck
Q. Thank you.

A. ... for allowing you to get up on the stage.

lJa
Q. Thank you. And you testified ... I'm sorry. One minute. Okay. And also along that line, if ...
let's say I have a band, and my band ...

A. Do you? ae
Q. ... wants to make a cover version of Thriller for a CD. Would I have to get permission from
Rod Songs?

A. For what purpose?


ich

Q. To perform Thriller on my album.

A. You would get a mechanical license from Rod Songs.


mM

Q. But I don't need permission?

A. If the song is ... if a composition ... once a composition has been recorded and released,
under U.S. copyright law, you have ... anybody can go and do a cover recording as long as they
get a mechanical license under the terms of the copyright provision. If you want a mechanical
license that's different, either a reduced rate or more favorable terms for accounting or anything
else, then you would have to go directly to the publisher to get that license. Yes.
a
Te

Q. Thank you. Thank you. And you testified yesterday that there was incomplete music at the
time of Michael Jackson's death, correct?

A. Yes.
w.

Q. There were recordings where Michael might be singing but not singing real words?

A. Yes.
ww
Q. Or singing an instrumental part?

om
A. Yes.

Q. Or singing choruses but not versus?

n.c
A. Yes.

Q. Singing versus but not choruses?

A. Generally the former.

so
Q. You called it beat boxing.

ck
A. Yes.

Q. Those were partial recordings.

lJa
A. Beat boxing is ...

Q. No, I'm sorry. I just meant the recordings ... they were partial recordings.

A. Yes.
ae
Q. They were not master recordings.

A. No.
ich

Q. And when you gathered the recordings in the process of inventorying the estate, there were
approximately 7 to 10,000 various recordings?

A. Seven to ten thousand tapes.


mM

Q. Recordings.

A. Tapes. Physical material.

Mr Camp: May I approach and have a document marked for identification?


a

Judge Holmes: Of course. Next in order under the new system is ...
Te

Mr Camp: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?

Judge Holmes: Yes.


w.

Mr Weitzman: Can we see the document?

Judge Holmes: Oh, yeah, one and all.


ww
Mr Camp: May I approach the petitioner's counsel?

om
Judge Holmes: What are we up to, 600 and something?

Court Clerk: No, it should be 623 ...

n.c
Judge Holmes: Dash R.

Court Clerk: Exhibit 623-R is marked for identification.

Mr Camp:

so
Q. Ms. Langford, I don't ... do you recognize this? This is an excerpt from your deposition that
we held on January 5th, 2017.

ck
A. Okay.

Q. I would like to read ...

lJa
Mr Camp: This is for impeachment purposes, Your Honor.

Mr Camp:
Q. I would like to read Line 17, the question, "How many, do you know, approximately
recordings did you gather?" The answer, "I would estimate that there are somewhere between 7
and 10,000 pieces. They could be" ...
ae
Mr Weitzman: Can I ... I'm sorry.
ich
Mr Camp: Are you objecting?

Mr Weitzman: I am.

Judge Holmes: Well, state your reason.


mM

Mr Weitzman: Well, I don't see the inconsistency of what she just said. If it's for impeachment
purposes, doesn't it have to be inconsistent?

Judge Holmes: Demonstrate the inconsistency there. Are you saying pieces equal songs?

Mr Camp: I ... she ... I believe the witness testified that there were not 7 to 10,000 recordings
a

when this question ...


Te

Judge Holmes: Are you saying that pieces equal recordings?

Mr Camp: It was the answer to the question regarding how many recordings, Your Honor.
w.

Mr Weitzman: It is consistent with what she just testified to, as I see it.

Judge Holmes: And four sentences later it, says you can have a 100 different recordings that
are the same song. What did you mean when you said, like, 7,000 pieces?
ww
om
The Witness: Literally, that there would be ... there could ... there are tapes or ... you know,
the physical embodiment of something. That doesn't mean those are 7 to 10,000 independent
recordings.

Judge Holmes: Now I'm a little bit confused. So if Mr. Jackson went into the studio and

n.c
cleared his throat and then sang snatches from happy birthday to somebody in the studio and then
sang Thriller, that would be, what, three pieces or something?

The Witness: There could be, for example - - I mean, yes. That could ... it could be broken
down in different ways. But if they have ... for example, you might have the same ... you might

so
have 10 tapes, but they all might have the recordings of, to use your example, Thriller on it. So ...

Mr Weitzman: Although, Your Honor, if we go to the beginning of this line of questioning at

ck
Page 30 - I'll begin with Line 19 ... the question asked was, "And these would have all been
what was on the recording? Was there music? Was it just lyrics?" Answer, there could be ...
"They could be any number of things. They could be sound effects. They could be drum beats.
They could be a single instrument. They could be multiple instruments. They could be a track

lJa
where it's music and Michael's doing what he does when he doesn't have lyrics" ...

Judge Holmes: All right. All right, Mr. Weitzman.

Mr Weitzman: Thank you, Your Honor.


ae
Judge Holmes: Still Mr. Camp's floor. I'll allow this in. So this can be admitted.

Mr Camp: Thank you, Your Honor.


ich

Mr Weitzman: Your Honor ...

Judge Holmes: I expect some redirect. Go ahead, Mr. Camp.


mM

Mr Camp: Just a moment, Your Honor.

Ms Herbert: Can we have a moment, Your Honor?

Judge Holmes: Of course.

Mr Camp: Okay. We're ready.


a
Te

Mr Camp:
Q. Ms. Langford, one more issue. Did you write a memorandum for the estate regarding Michael
Jackson's name and likeness?

A. Yes.
w.

Q. And did you prepare that memo directly from your memory?

A. Yes.
ww
om
Q. Thank you.

Mr Camp: No further questions, Your Honor.

Judge Holmes: Mr. Weitzman, any redirect?

n.c
Mr Weitzman: Yes.

Mr Weitzman: Your Honor, may I have ... have they been marked already?

so
Mr Camp: No. We need to mark 30.

Judge Holmes: Yeah. You need to mark Page 30.

ck
Mr Weitzman: Okay. Next in order, whatever next in order is.

Judge Holmes: Indeed. Please approach the Clerk and have it marked for identification.

lJa
Mr Weitzman: May I approach the Clerk, Your Honor?

Judge Holmes: Yes. ae


Mr Weitzman: Please put that up on the screen.

Court Clerk: Exhibit 624-R is marked for identification. It's Page 30 of the hearing exhibit.
ich
Mr Camp: Oh, we got it. I'm sorry.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION
mM

Mr Weitzman:
Q. Ms. Langford, when you say recordings, is that the same as saying master recordings?

A. Independent works, yes.

Q. Okay. So these bits and pieces that you refer to ...


a

A. Yes.
Te

Q. ... are they the masters that we have been talking about?

A. That we have been talking about ...


w.

Q. Are they completed songs?

A. No.
ww
Q. Sorry. That's ... let me just pass over. These are pieces that could include what?

om
A. Could include anything. It could include, as we have heard already, a single instrument, drum
tracks, Michael's beat boxing. It could include multiple musicians. It could include Michael
talking. It could include other people not including Michael at all.

n.c
Q. So these are not conversely viable recordings.

A. No. They are not.

Q. Okay. And many of them do not include music. They just include ...

so
Mr Camp: Objection. Leading.

ck
Judge Holmes: Sustained.

Mr Weitzman:
Q. Can you give us the best laundry list you can of what could be included on these recordings?

lJa
Mr Camp: Objection. Calls for a narrative.

Mr Weitzman: Calls for an answer. ae


Judge Holmes: Overruled on that one. You can answer that.

Mr Weitzman:
A. It could be sound effects. It could be tones. It could be tones that are used for setting - -
ich
calibrating. It could be individual instrument tracks. It could be somebody playing a guitar,
somebody playing a drum. It could be multiple musicians working on something. It could be
Michael testing vocal levels. It could be Michael talking. It could be just somebody leaving the
machine running while they're sitting in the studio talking. It could be ...
mM

Q. Okay. So when we spoke yesterday about completed songs, completed recordings, what were
you referring to?

A. I was referring to recordings that you ... that were completed and ready to be released.

Q. And these bits and pieces, 7,000, 10,000 pieces, they are not, as I understand it ...
a

Mr Camp: Objection. Leading.


Te

Mr Weitzman:

Q. Are these ...


w.

Judge Holmes: Sustained. You can rephrase.

Mr Weitzman:
ww
Q. Are these recordings ... I'm sorry. Let me back up just so we get ... everybody understands it.

om
When you use the phrase recordings, are you referring to sound that is on some tape, some
cassette, some hard drive?

A. It could be any of those.

n.c
Q. Okay. But they're not completed.

A. None of them are completed. The only things that are completed are the things that ... I mean,
at the time of Michael's death, the only things that were completed were the things that had been
released on the seven albums that we already talked about.

so
Q. And when you talk about ... when we have talked about Mr. Jackson owning his master
recordings, we are not referring to these little bits and pieces of recorded sound, correct?

ck
A. Those are not completed recordings. They're not exploitable. They're not commercially viable.

Mr Weitzman: Sorry. Ms. Cohen has a question and I don't understand.

lJa
Mr Weitzman: Q. The ... I'm sorry. The pieces you're talking about, do those include as well
conversations with Mr. Jackson and his children? Does it include DVD sounds?

A. Some of them ... as I said, some of them could be just conversation. Yes.
ae
Mr Weitzman: I don't have anything further. Nothing further.

Judge Holmes: Nothing further? All right. I just have a few questions.
ich

The Witness: Okay.

Judge Holmes: You talked yesterday about the Making of Thriller ... I mean, the making of the
Making of Thriller, I suppose. You're familiar with that?
mM

The Witness: The Making of Thriller? Yeah.

Judge Holmes: Well, I'm sorry. The documentary film called ...

The Witness: The Making ...


a

Judge Holmes: ... The Making of Thriller.


Te

The Witness: Okay.

Judge Holmes: And you said that the purpose of that was what?
w.

The Witness: It ... that was created as a separate program to air on Showtime initially and then
put out on DVD. And the reason for doing that was as a way of raising the additional money
needed to fund the production of the short film.
ww
Judge Holmes: And that was financially successful, meaning it made more money than it took

om
to produce?

The Witness: The ... I ... it was successful in that it certainly helped to promote the album as a
promotional vehicle. So it was certainly successful in that regard. In terms of actually how much
money it generated, I would have to, you know, go back and ... to the records.

n.c
Judge Holmes: Did it help offset the cost of making Thriller, the ...

The Witness: Yes.

so
Judge Holmes: ... music video? Okay.

The Witness: Yes.

ck
Judge Holmes: Did Michael Jackson understand the economics of that transaction? You know,
we're going to make ... sell a documentary about the making of something to raise money to
actually make it?

lJa
The Witness: In order to fund the ...

Judge Holmes: Yeah. ae


The Witness: ... production that he wanted to make, yeah. I mean, it was ...

Judge Holmes: So he understood the ...


ich
The Witness: ... he had charged John ... when we got the budget from the director, John
Landis, to make it, and it came in as high as it did, which was over $1 million, far more than, you
know, than any record company was going to pay for, you know, a promotional film. They
declined the opportunity to fund the production. And you know, Michael turned to John and said
find a way to pay for it. And so that's when the idea of creating the making of and being able to
mM

sell not only ... sell that as a longer-than-14-minute project, you know, came together and was
able to make the deal for the broadcast and for the VHS release of it, which generated the money
needed.

Judge Holmes: Now fast forward to Mr. Jackson's last days. Were you familiar with his plans
for those 50 concerts in London?
a

The Witness: Obviously, I became aware of it ... I ... not ... because we weren't working with
Te

him when they were first announced, but I certainly became aware of it.

Judge Holmes: When did you become aware of it?

The Witness: Well, I saw the press conference like everybody else. And then of course, you
w.

know, the ... a week or so before Michael passed, when John met with Michael and, you know,
he did call me to tell me that we were going to be working with Michael again. And at that point,
you know, I knew the concerts would be happening and we would be going to London, and I was
looking forward to, you know, having a chance to see Michael again.
ww
om
Judge Holmes: Are you familiar with the movie, This Is It?

The Witness: Yes.

Judge Holmes: How are you familiar with that?

n.c
The Witness: Because I worked on it.

Judge Holmes: Who had the idea for making the movie, This Is It?

so
The Witness: Well, actually, I believe it came ... it was an idea that came to us through Randy
Phillips at ...

ck
Judge Holmes: Who is Mr. Phillips?

The Witness: He ... I don't know his exact title, but he was at AEG. And I don't ... we didn't
even know that there was footage that existed at the time. And of course there was the issue over

lJa
the fact that they claimed that they owned it.

Judge Holmes: I'm sorry?

The Witness: AEG claimed that it was their property, but they wanted to make a film. And that
was kind of how the conversation started.
ae
Judge Holmes: When did that conversation with Mr. Phillips occur ... before or after Mr.
Jackson's death?
ich

The Witness: After.

Judge Holmes: Now, Mr. Jackson's image is all over This Is It because it's, I guess, his
choreography and designing of the tour that ...
mM

The Witness: It's footage of ... some of the footage is of him rehearsing, sure. I don't consider
that the same as name and likeness, but that's my ...

Judge Holmes: I've got to figure that out myself.

The Witness: ... non-personal ...


a
Te

Judge Holmes: I understand.

The Witness: ... non-legal opinion.

Judge Holmes: It's one of those things I got to figure out. But I'm thinking of the idea for the
w.

movie This Is It. Did Mr. Phillip ... by the way, object to my questions if there are objections.
Did you have an impression that Michael Jackson thought that the ... a movie like This Is It
could, like the making of Thriller, be a moneymaker?
ww
The Witness: Honestly, I ... Michael's purpose for filming rehearsals of concerts and even

om
actual concerts were more for him to be able to view and see what ... be able to see how he looks
on the stage and what's happening and also see what everybody else is doing because that's how
he can tell people what they need to fix and do differently, or whatever. I don't honestly believe
that Michael would have had the intention of taking rehearsal footage and releasing it
commercially. It's not something that I think would have been the type of thing he would have

n.c
chosen to do.

Judge Holmes: Is there concert rehearsal footage and concert footage for his first album ...
help me ...

so
The Witness: Bad.

Judge Holmes: ... the one in '79.

ck
The Witness: Bad.

Judge Holmes: No.

lJa
The Witness: Oh.

Judge Holmes: Individual albums. ae


The Witness: The ...

Judge Holmes: Off the Wall, was it?


ich
The Witness: There was no ... the first Michael Jackson solo tour was not until Bad.

Judge Holmes: Oh, okay. Was there concert footage and rehearsal footage for Bad?

The Witness: We found ... we did find concert footage. And actually in the Bad 25 album ...
mM

anniversary release, there is actually ... one of the things that's part of that release is a release of
a DVD of the ... one of the Wembley concerts that he performed, which was used ... which was
based on using his VHS viewing copy that he would have had. You know, in ... at concerts they
have the jumbotrons on the sides of the screen?

Judge Holmes: I'll take your word for it.


a

The Witness: There are large screens so that people sitting far away can see what's happening.
Te

And he would have copies of those to watch, as I just said, for his ... for him to be able to look at
and view, and that's what we used for that.

Judge Holmes: Was there enough footage from the Bad tour for a movie similar to This Is It, a
full-length documentary to have been made?
w.

The Witness: He could have released any of that concert footage.

Judge Holmes: Did he ever release any of it?


ww
om
The Witness: No, he did not.

Judge Holmes: Was it available to the estate to use to create another This Is It-style movie
rather than the DVD outtakes for the rerelease of the Bad album?

n.c
The Witness: Other ... I'm sorry, can ...

Judge Holmes: Was there enough footage to make a movie from the Bad tour?

The Witness: Well, we made the DVD. I mean, I don't think that ... I don't think we believed

so
that it was a quality such that it could be released theatrically.

Judge Holmes: For his next tour? Help me.

ck
The Witness: Dangerous.

Judge Holmes: Thank you.

lJa
The Witness: You're welcome.

Judge Holmes: Same questions. Was there rehearsal footage of that?


ae
The Witness: He actually did release a concert program of that on HBO called Live from
Bucharest that was put on HBO, and then put out on DVD.

Judge Holmes: Live from Bucharest?


ich

The Witness: That was the concert that they used to create the DVD, and that was shown
originally on Showtime ... I'm sorry. Not Showtime, HBO.

Judge Holmes: So he actually released some of that one.


mM

The Witness: He did.

Judge Holmes: Did he make any money?

The Witness: It probably made enough to cover the production costs, but it wasn't something
that generated a significant amount of income, no.
a
Te

Judge Holmes: Next tour?

The Witness: History.

Judge Holmes: History, thank you.


w.

The Witness: You're welcome.

Judge Holmes: Same questions.


ww
om
The Witness: The only thing that was done from History was there was a concert in Munich
that was filmed and released on television in certain markets, including Germany, obviously,
where it was filmed. But it was never released on DVD or otherwise.

Judge Holmes: Was there another tour after History?

n.c
The Witness: Those were ... unfortunately, This Is It would have been the next one.

Judge Holmes: Had Michael Jackson ever seen Cirque de Soleil?

so
The Witness: Yes. Many times.

Judge Holmes: Did he communicate to you what he thought about Cirque de Soleil?

ck
The Witness: He enjoyed their shows, just like we all did.

Judge Holmes: Did he ever see the Beatles show that Cirque de Soleil had put on?

lJa
The Witness: I actually don't know.

Judge Holmes: Did he ever discuss with you an idea for a Cirque de Soleil show?
ae
The Witness: No.

Judge Holmes: After Mr. Jackson died, did ... you mentioned that ... I think that Sony asked
you to look through the unreleased pieces?
ich

The Witness: It gets a little confusing, doesn't it?

Judge Holmes: Yes.


mM

The Witness: Yes.

Judge Holmes: How did they ask you?

The Witness: During the negotiation of the agreement, they just ... it was just part of the
conversation was that, you know, we would have to go through, you know, what they had as well
as what we had to try to ascertain what was there that was releasable.
a
Te

Judge Holmes: And was Sony particularly ... I'm sorry. Did Sony assert an interest in the
pieces, or ...

The Witness: No.


w.

Judge Holmes: ... by which I mean the snippets of audio recordings all the way to full-length
songs, or were they ... what were they asking you for?
ww
The Witness: They were specifically interested in completed recordings that were ... would be

om
capable for release.

Judge Holmes: What we have been calling master recordings.

The Witness: Correct.

n.c
Judge Holmes: Were they interested in unpublished songs that Mr. Jackson had written?

The Witness: They weren't interested in any songs, whether they were written by ... or musical
compositions, whether they were written by Michael or anybody else. Their issue was not who

so
wrote the ... any of the compositions. That wasn't relevant to them.

Judge Holmes: Okay. That ... so they were going after the sound files ...

ck
The Witness: Correct. It was the performance. It was the actual performance that mattered to
them.

lJa
Judge Holmes: Okay. Did Mr. Branca or anybody else of the estate have you go through and
try to find additional songs that Mr. Jackson had written, if not necessarily even performed?

The Witness: We did not do a separate search specifically indexing any of the material based on
writing.
ae
Judge Holmes: Are you familiar with Mr. Jackson's practices when it came to writing songs?
Was he organized in a little studio in the woods? Did he scribble on the back of envelopes at
hotels? Or do you know?
ich

The Witness: I mean, I have come to understand, you know, certainly during the early days
when I worked with him and he would send ...

Mr Weitzman: Sorry, Your Honor. Can I raise this objection? Is your question if she had
mM

personal knowledge, or she ... had she ever observed the process, or what she's heard from
someone else? I didn't understand your question.

Judge Holmes: It's personal knowledge. Yeah.

Mr Weitzman: Okay. In other words, what she has observed.


a

Judge Holmes: Yes.


Te

The Witness: Okay. Then I guess I have never been in the room with Michael when he's been
composing.

Judge Holmes: Would you know, based on your personal knowledge, where to look for
w.

unrecorded ... I'm sorry ... yeah, unrecorded songs that he had written?

The Witness: Unrecorded ... are you talking recordings or compositions now?
ww
Judge Holmes: I'm talking about songs, songs for which he would get a songwriter's royalty.

om
The Witness: Okay. So compositions. Okay.

Judge Holmes: These mechanical royalties.

n.c
The Witness: So the compositions.

Judge Holmes: Oh, you call them compositions?

The Witness: Yes.

so
Judge Holmes: Okay. I'll use that term then.

ck
The Witness: To me, that's how I distinguish compositions and master recordings.

Judge Holmes: And pieces and I ...

lJa
Mr Weitzman: So as long as we're making a record, I would like to object to the questions
relating to compositions. I don't understand the relevance.

Judge Holmes: Oh, I thought that they were what Sony ATV had rights to.
ae
The Witness: Oh. Sony ...

Judge Holmes: Am I mistaken here?


ich
The Witness: ... yeah.

Judge Holmes: They had mechanical publishing rights, right?

Mr Camp: No, it's not Sony ATV. It's MIJAC, Your Honor.
mM

Judge Holmes: I'm sorry, MIJAC. But that's also evaluation here, so. That would have been
something that would fall into MIJAC's pot, right?

Mr Camp: Correct, Your Honor.

Judge Holmes: Okay. So I do need to know about this. Is there ... am I missing something, Mr.
a

Weitzman?
Te

Mr Weitzman: I'm just not understanding what it is you're asking ...

Judge Holmes: Oh, additional value that's in the estate that we don't know about in the form of
songs that MIJAC would have as value at the time of death.
w.

Mr Weitzman: So the Court is assuming that if a song was written and never recorded by Mr.
Jackson, there's some value if ...
ww
Judge Holmes: If it exists.

om
Mr Weitzman: ... Lionel Richie records it?

Judge Holmes: Yes. Yes because there might be royalty interest as well . Anyway, were there
such songs?

n.c
The Witness: Not that I'm aware of.

Judge Holmes: Were you tasked to buy anybody associated with the estate to try to find such
songs?

so
The Witness: Not specifically. I was tasked with going through all of the material that existed to
try to corral what was there, but not specifically looking for musical compositions.

ck
Judge Holmes: Okay. So in the trade, composition means a song from which a songwriter
would get a royalty. A recording is a performance ...

lJa
The Witness: Is ... yes.

Judge Holmes: ... for which the performer would get a royalty, but also the songwriter to the
extent that it generates sales, right? ae
The Witness: Which may be ... yeah. To the extent that ... yeah.

Judge Holmes: Okay. And you were charged with looking for ...
ich
The Witness: Recordings.

Judge Holmes: ... recordings. Okay. I think I understand this better. A little bit it was my
ignorance, Mr. Weitzman. But do you have any follow- up questions to further elucidate things?
mM

Mr Weitzman: I ...

The Witness: Did I answer your questions?

Judge Holmes: What's that?

The Witness: Did I answer your questions?


a
Te

Judge Holmes: Oh, yeah.

The Witness: Okay. Just making sure.

Judge Holmes: The lawyers know way more about a cased than the Judge does.
w.

Judge Holmes: All right. While Mr. Weitzman is figuring out if he has any follow-up questions
... oh, were you going to the stand?
ww
Mr Weitzman: I was.

om
Judge Holmes: Oh. Go ahead.

Mr Weitzman: You mean the podium. I'm not ...

n.c
Judge Holmes: A lectern, the podium, the dais.

Mr Weitzman: Got it.

Mr Weitzman:

so
Q. The This Is It documentary that was put together from the rehearsal footage, you said that the
estate learned about the footage sometime after Mr. Jackson passed away?

ck
A. Correct.

Q. And did you review the footage?

lJa
A. Some of it.

Q. If that footage ... well, let me back up. Was the footage done with high def. professional
camera crews? ae
A. It wasn't a multi-camera shoot, which is what you would normally do if you were doing ... if
you were intending to create something for commercial release.

Q. It was done with handheld cameras, like whether it was iPhones or digital cameras?
ich

A. I believe it was digital cameras, yes.

Q. Okay. And was it done by one or two people as the rehearsals were taking place, as we
learned?
mM

A. Yes.

Q. Okay. And is it your understanding that that footage was never to be for commercial use?

A. As I said, I ... that is my belief.


a

Q. I'm sorry. By commercial use, I mean released as a film.


Te

A. Correct.

Q. Okay. You were asked questions about other tours and whether those rehearsal ... that
rehearsal footage was released during the time that you worked with Michael. Did you ... are
w.

you aware of Michael ever wanting to release a rehearsal footage ...

A. No, the ...


ww
Q. ... for commercial purposes?

om
A. ... the releases were of the actual concerts.

Q. Okay. And the video that is the handheld recording of the rehearsal, what was the audio
quality of those tapes?

n.c
A. Unfortunately, it wasn't great.

Q. What ... when you say unfortunately it wasn't great, I ... what does that mean?

so
A. It means that it wasn't ... normally if you were going to do something for commercial release,
you would have a separate ... like, you would have a soundtrack out ...

ck
Q. Okay. Ms. Langford?

A. Yes.

lJa
Q. We couldn't use the audio as it was recorded.

A. Correct.

Mr Camp: Objection. Leading.


ae
Judge Holmes: Don't test ... he's testifying.

Mr Weitzman: Okay.
ich

Judge Holmes: That's sustained. Try again, Mr. Weitzman.

Mr Weitzman:
Q. Well, were we able to use the audio as recorded on that handheld camera?
mM

A. No.

Q. Okay. And did we have to, my phrase, feather in or use sound from the master recordings?

Mr Camp: Objection. Leading.


a

Judge Holmes: Sustained.


Te

Mr Weitzman:
Q. What sound did we use for the music on the This Is It ...

A. We ultimately ...
w.

Q. ... film?
ww
A. ... had to use parts from the master recordings that were released ... the released master

om
recordings to enhance and make the sound viable for commercial release.

Q. And I think you referenced some DVD footage from with respect to Bad that was released on
the Bad 25?

n.c
A. Yes.

Q. What was that?

A. That was at ... concert from Wembly in 1987 or '98 ... '88, sorry.

so
Q. Not rehearsal footage?

ck
A. Not rehearsal footage.

Q. Okay. And you were asked questions about Michael's compositions. Did Michael write
music?

lJa
A. On lead sheets, no.

Q. Well ... ae
A. He ...

Judge Holmes: I'm sorry. What was that phrase you used? Something ...
ich
The Witness: Lead sheets.

Judge Holmes: What is a lead sheet?

The Witness: You see printed sheet music?


mM

Judge Holmes: Yes.

The Witness: Okay. When a composer who writes and reads, like, the notes and knows how to
do that and creates that way, that's called the lead sheet.

Judge Holmes: Oh.


a
Te

Mr Weitzman:
Q. When I say write music, you know, kind of old school, I mean writing notes of music on a
sheet.

A. No. He did not.


w.

Q. Okay. And what was your understanding of how Michael composed his songs on music?

A. That was the beat boxing I referred to.


ww
om
Q. In other words, would he ... when you say that ... and I think you ... I want to repeat what I
think you described ... he would hum the sound, sing the sound, make the sound that he wanted
the musician to put together?

A. Yes.

n.c
Q. And would that include melody?

A. Yes. It would include all of it and ...

so
Q. All of the sounds for a particular song.

A. Yes. Exactly.

ck
Q. And with respect to lyric, did he write out lyrics sometimes? Or did he speak the lyric?

A. He sometimes would write them out. He sometimes would ... years ago, there used to be little

lJa
Dictaphones. I don't know if anybody ...

Q. Well, I certainly remember them.

A. ... remembers those. But sometimes he would do that, and then he transcribed ... have
somebody transcribe it from that.
ae
Q. Okay. Did you go through a process to find ... I think you told us. I just want to ... I want to
get this clear. Or what was the process you used to try to locate unreleased recordings?
ich

A. Well, there were several things that we did. I mean, we talked to various people that had been
working with Michael ... I think I mentioned nephew yesterday ... people like that who would
work with him to ascertain what they had. We went through the various facilities where Michael
had physical properties stored to see what ... you know, to pull together things and organize
mM

personal property versus recordings, versus whatever else there was ... you know, props and
various things. So it was going through all that stuff and obviously corralling everything and
separating it.

Q. Did you look for compositions that Michael Jackson had written?

A. Specifically, no.
a
Te

Q. Okay. Do you know of any compositions that Michael Jackson wrote ...

Mr Camp: Objection. Asked and answered.

Mr Weitzman: I haven't finished the question yet.


w.

Judge Holmes: True. Finish the question.

Mr Weitzman: Thank you.


ww
om
Mr Weitzman:
Q. Do you know of any compositions Michael Jackson wrote that others performed?

A. Over the course of ... I know of two that I can think of. One was the song Muscles which was
recorded by Diana Ross and produced by Michael and released on an album of Diana's. There

n.c
was also a song which Michael wrote for his sister Rebbie to put out ...

Judge Holmes: Rebbie?

The Witness: Rebbie Jackson. Yeah. It's his oldest sister.

so
Mr Weitzman:
A. Obviously, it wasn't a very successful album. But he wrote ... those are the two that I can

ck
think of.

Q. And did he write the song ...

lJa
A. He did write the songs for them.

Q. Did he write the song for Rebbie and for Diana?

A. Yes.
ae
Q. And other than that, Michael Jackson sang many of his own compositions, correct?

A. Yes. Primarily this ... in fact, except for those two exceptions, everything else that he wrote,
ich
he wrote for himself to perform.

Mr Weitzman: Your Honor, can we take our morning break?

Judge Holmes: Yeah. Sure.


mM

Mr Weitzman: I want to finish up with Ms. Langford.

Judge Holmes: Okay. Get your questions in order ...

Mr Weitzman: Thank you.


a

Judge Holmes: ... and then we'll have ... you'll have your opportunity to respond.
Te

Mr Camp: Thank you, Your Honor.

RECESS
w.

Judge Holmes: Mr. Weitzman, the floor is yours.


ww
om
Mr Weitzman: Your Honor, just a bit of housekeeping. I would like to move 624-P, Page 30,
into evidence to complete that dialogue that we referenced in the question-and-answer session
earlier.

Judge Holmes: That is admitted. That's admitted. Yeah. Exhibit 624-P

n.c
Mr Camp: Your Honor, and to clarify, 623- R was moved in, also?

Judge Holmes: Oh, yes. That's admitted. Exhibit 623-R

so
Mr Camp: Thank you, Your Honor.

Mr Weitzman:

ck
Q. Ms. Langford, earlier, the Judge asked you about the making of Thriller while he was
discussing the rehearsal footage from the documentary that he made. Was there a difference
between the Making of Thriller and the rehearsal footage that ultimately became part of the This
Is It documentary, that is, the difference in the processes?

lJa
A. Yes ... excuse me ... yes.

Q. Okay. You just take your time. I know you're ...


ae
A. Sorry.

Q. ... emotional. That's okay. Tell us first about the Making of Thriller because, chronologically,
that was earlier.
ich

A. Well, as I said earlier, the Making of Thriller was a planned release. It ... the deal was made
with Showtime and with VASTRON for the broadcast, and the release of the VHS of it before it
was filmed. So when it came time to film it, it was filmed using professional cameramen, sound
equipment because it ... in effect, it was ... in ... it was being created intentionally as something
mM

for commercial release, whereas ...

Q. The Making of Thriller ...

A. Yes.

Q. ... was made to be released.


a
Te

A. Correct.

Mr Camp: Objection. Leading.

Judge Holmes: Sustained. The answer's stricken.


w.

Mr Weitzman:
Q. Was the Making of Thriller made for the purposes of commercial release?
ww
A. Yes.

om
Q. And did Michael Jackson ... well, were there makeup artists and stylists used for the Making
of Thriller?

A. Yes.

n.c
Q. And were there performances included in the Making of Thriller?

A. There was performances in the studio where they were doing the rehearsing, yes.

so
Q. All right. And now the difference between Making of Thriller and the rehearsal footage?

A. The difference is that on This Is It, that was not professional cameramen. It was ... the intent

ck
of filming that was ... as I said, was for Michael's personal viewing to be able to watch his
performance so that he could decide how he wanted to change, did he want to stand some place
different on the stage, all of those kinds of things, as well as being able to see what other people
are doing.

lJa
Q. Your ...

Mr Camp: Your Honor, I object to this answer because the witness lacks personal knowledge as
to that.
ae
Judge Holmes: Okay. How do you know how the Making of Thriller was made?

Mr Camp: Your Honor, he's asking about This Is It.


ich

Judge Holmes: Oh, sorry.

The Witness: I'm basing my answer on my 30 years of working with Michael and knowing his
process.
mM

Mr Weitzman: I'll submit it.

Judge Holmes: The objection is overruled then. Go ahead, Mr. Weitzman.

Mr Weitzman:
Q. Based on your experience of Michael Jackson, do you believe he would have ever released or
a

authorized for release rehearsal footage?


Te

Mr Camp: Your ... objection. Calls for speculation.

Mr Weitzman: Well, really comes directly from personal knowledge.


w.

Judge Holmes: No, that's overruled. Go ahead.

Mr Weitzman:
A. No, I do not believe that Michael Jackson would have ever released that footage.
ww
om
Q. Now, were you given a list by the attorneys that you were told was provided from the internal
revenue service, a list of songs to see if you could find?

A. Musical compositions?

n.c
Q. Musical compositions.

Mr Camp: Objection, Your Honor. This is exceeding the scope of the witness's testimony.

Judge Holmes: Not if her answer is to my questions, though ...

so
Mr Weitzman: They are directly

ck
Judge Holmes: ... which is additional records.

Mr Weitzman: ... related to your questions.

lJa
Judge Holmes: That's what I ... that one is overruled.

Mr Weitzman:
Q. And ... ae
Judge Holmes: Were you given such a list?

The Witness: I was.


ich
Judge Holmes: Okay. Go ahead, Mr. Weitzman.

Mr Weitzman:
Q. And is this the list that was referenced yesterday, at least it was your understanding, that was
included in Mr. Dahl ... Owen Dahl's report?
mM

A. Yes. That was the basis for it.

Q. Okay. And what did you do ... what were you asked to do when you were given that list?

A. I was asked to review it and to see if I could determine the accuracy of the information.
a

Q. And what was the information, if you recall?


Te

A. It ... the original list that we were given was actually a printout from Wikipedia or internet
that listed a compilation of song titles, and that it was claimed ... compositions recording that it
was claimed ... that existed by Michael Jackson, and some additional information to the extent
that whoever compiled the list had it.
w.

Q. And just so it's straight, the list was, as you understood it, meant to include songs that
Michael Jackson both wrote and recorded.
ww
A. Correct.

om
Q. And did you go through a process to determine whether the thought the song existed and
whether or not you had possession of them?

A. Well, the first thing I did ... yes. I mean, the first thing ...

n.c
Q. Okay. What was the process?

A. The first thing I did was just go through and identify things that even in the list itself where it
attributed writing to other people. Obviously, if it was written by somebody else, it wasn't written

so
by Michael. So those were the first ones that could be easily eliminated. Then when it came to
anything that was potentially attributed to Michael as a writer, if it was ... some of them were
cited ... the note would say cited by Michael in a 1993 deposition that he gave in copyright

ck
infringement litigation. So anything that was referenced as being cited by him, I accepted as
something that he had obviously been working on at some point by 1993, and so I didn't dispute
... I accepted that it was something he was working on. But I still had to figure out whether it
was something that existed and we could find a record, of which there were a number that we

lJa
could not. So it may have been something he had been toying with in his head. It may have been
something that he had the tape of and destroyed. I don't really know what ultimately happened to
it, but it didn't exist in what we had. Then to the extent that there were recordings that I could
find, I would then start to do other research to see if I could find information that would identify
who the songwriters actually were.
ae
Excuse me. There were some that ... there were also some, by the way, that were alternate titles
to other songs that had already been released. For example, something like Hot Fever was an
alternative title to the song The Way You Make Me Feel, which was on the Bad album. So there
ich
were certain things like that that could also be eliminated. And then I would do things ... I
looked through the different legal files to see if it was a song that we had filed a copyright
registration for to see if I ... you know, because that would obviously give me information on the
writers. I checked the BMI database and ASCAP database to see if I could find references to the
songs having been either filed with the ASCAP or BMI, not necessarily even by Michael or his
mM

publisher. But if there was a co-writer, they might have been filed by the co-writer, which was
the case, for example, with some of the songs co-written by Michael and Bryan Loren. Bryan
Loren or his publishing administrator registered those song titles with the performing society, so
I was able to get information that way.

Some of them I found by going through the recordings that we had ... have in the archives to see
if I could find recordings. And then if I could find any... anything, any notes, anything on the
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box or anything with the tapes that would tell me any information on who the songwriters might
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be. Sometimes, for example, there was one song ... and I'm sorry I don't remember the title of it
... but there was one song that was attributed to Michael as the writer. But when I went through
the records that we found, I actually found a lyrics sheet for this song that said written by Dr.
Freeze, who was a writer/producer that Michael also worked with. So I ... so clearly, that was his
song, not a song that Michael had been a writer on. So there were things like that. There were
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lots of different ways that I would try to find as much information as I could. I would also look at
who the producers were. If it was something where Michael was the only producer and working,
you know, on it by himself with just one of his engineers, it was likely that it was something he
wrote. He wouldn't normally go into the studio with a song somebody gave him to record. So
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there's a vast different ways that I went to try to find the information to verify or not ... whether

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or not Michael was a writer of a song.

Q. So you did kind of an exhaustive process doing a number of different things to answer the
questions about the existence of those songs.

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Mr Camp: Objection. The witness has already answered this question.

Judge Holmes: Sustained.

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Mr Weitzman:
Q. And the question I was going to ask was can you ... did you provide those answers to the

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attorneys which you understood was going to be given to the government, the IRS.

A. Yes.

lJa
Q. And the list you were given by the government and the responses you made to the
government's inquiry were the lists that were included in Mr. Dahl's report. Is that correct?

A. That ... ae
Q. That is the results.

A. That's my understanding, yes.


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Q. Now, the process you used to look for completed recorded songs, can you explain to us, once
again, what the ... maybe with a little more detail for the Judge what it is you did?

Mr Camp: Objection. Asked and answered.


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Judge Holmes: That one is sustained.

Mr Weitzman: Okay.

Judge Holmes: We know she did her job, and it's in the report.

Mr Weitzman:
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Q. Okay. And the same thing with respect to the compositions, you have told us basically
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everything you did, correct?

A. Yes. I mean, the information on the compositions was in some ways secondary to the master.
So once ... were it not for the need to go through to look specifically for writing information ...
which by the way, when we gave the information on who the writers were, we did not take them
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off the list based on whether or not it was commercially viable. We simply answered the
question.

Q. Okay. So ...
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A. The ...

Q. I'm sorry.

A. That's okay.

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Q. I thought you were finished. I apologize.

A. No, that's okay.

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Q. So the 7,000 to some thousand pieces that you referred to in the archives, I think you told us
about the process. So is it a fair summary to say, in all of that that you listened to, there were no
completed ...

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Mr Camp: Objection.

Mr Weitzman:

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Q. ... unrecorded songs ...

Mr Weitzman: I'm almost done, then you can object.

Mr Weitzman:
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Q. ... there were no completed unrecorded songs except for the ones that were released on the
posthumous albums? Would that be accurate?

Mr Camp: Objection. Leading.


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Judge Holmes: Sustained.

Mr Weitzman:
Q. Were there any completed unreleased songs other than those released in the two posthumous
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albums found in the archives, or whatever the descriptor is where all these recording were
stored?

A. There are no completed unreleased master recordings that I have found other than those that
have been released.

Q. I have no further questions.


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Judge Holmes: There we go.

Mr Weitzman: Thank you for your patience, Your Honor.

Judge Holmes: Mr. Camp, your turn to follow up on mine and Mr. Weitzman's questions.
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Mr Camp: Okay. Thank you, Your Honor.


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RECROSS-EXAMINATION

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Mr Camp:
Q. Ms. Langford, of the 7 to 10,000 recordings, or you used the word pieces ...

A. Pieces.

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Q. ... those were in various stages of completeness, correct?

A. Yes.

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Q. And we know that there were posthumous albums released containing previously unreleased
Michael Jackson compositions?

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A. Yes.

Q. And were those ...

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A. I'm sorry.

Q. ... 7 to 10,000 recordings ...

A. No, I'm sorry. Can you just state ... restate the question? I want to make sure I answered it
correctly.
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Q. I said we know that there were posthumous albums released containing previous unreleased
Michael Jackson compositions.
ich

A. Yes.

Q. And were those 7 to 10,000 recordings pieces the source of those posthumous albums ...
compositions ... compositions on the posthumous albums? I'm sorry. Let me rephrase that. Were
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those 7 to 10,000 recordings or pieces the source of the compositions on the posthumous
releases?

A. No. Not all of them.

Judge Holmes: I'm sorry. Were they the source of the recordings of those posthumous releases?
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The Witness: Actually, not all of them. No, Judge.


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Judge Holmes: Oh, okay.

Mr Camp:
Q. But some were.
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A. Yes.

Q. And isn't it possible that there were songs, recordings ... or ... that you were not aware of?
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A. Where?

Q. Anywhere.

Judge Holmes: I take that as a no.

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Mr Camp: Okay. Thank you.

Judge Holmes: Unless you want it to be a yes. Yeah.

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A. rhetorical no.

Mr Camp:

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Q. Did you listen to all 7 to 10,000 recordings or pieces?

A. No.

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Q. Did anyone?

A. No. You ... can I say something? ae


Q. I think that's all I need there. But let me turn to This Is It. You testified that they had to
improve the quality of the rehearsal footage recordings to produce This Is It.

A. The audio.
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Q. And a competent movie producer was aware of that technology.

A. You would have to ask the competent movie producer.


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Q. But isn't that what they did to make This Is It?

A. I don't understand the question. I'm sorry.

Q. They used the technology to enhance the footage to make This Is It.

A. They didn't enhance the footage. The footage is the footage. What we ... what was done was
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sound engineers and editors enhanced the audio, not - - using the masters and the sound from the
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master recordings.

Q. They didn't enhance the video.

A. I mean, you color correct. You do basic post-production work, but no.
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Q. One moment, Your Honor.

The Witness: Am I not understanding the question?


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Mr Camp:
Q. Going back to the possibility that you weren't aware of unreleased songs, were you aware that
Michael Jackson's laptop was never found?

A. What laptop?

n.c
Q. A laptop that contained recording material ... or sound material ... his compositions, or
anything.

A. I don't know anything about a laptop. I'm sorry.

so
Q. Okay. No further questions, Your Honor.

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Judge Holmes: Okay. You might have a couple

Mr Weitzman: This is not ...

lJa
Judge Holmes: ... very, very brief follow-up questions.

Mr Weitzman: This is not under the I can't resist, but it will be quick, and then ... but I can't.
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REDIRECT EXAMINATION

Mr Weitzman:
Q. The pieces of sound recordings in the archive or vault, whatever you called it, you didn't
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listen to each and every one, but you didn't find in all that you listened to any completed
recorded songs, correct?

Mr Camp: Objection. Leading.


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Judge Holmes: Sustained.

Mr Weitzman:
Q. And if you knew of any completed unreleased songs, what would you have done with them?

A. I would have picked up the phone, and I would have called John, I would have called Sony,
and I would have said, you know, we should listen ... this is something that we should listen to
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and consider whether it's something that should be released.


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Q. And in your experience with Michael Jackson, did he make the decisions on what should and
should not be released?

A. Most definitely.
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Q. And is it your experience that if there were songs after the Invincible album was released that
were capable of being released and generating revenues, Michael would have released them?
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A. Absolutely. I mean, if Michael thought that there was something that he ... that was

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completed and he wanted out there, he would have done it.

Q. One last question. In the ... where those sound recordings were stored, were there ... did you
find copies and repeats and different versions of the same sound or sounds?

n.c
A. Yes. And there were lots of things ... and one of the reasons that I ... that there were things
that I didn't listen to is because, based on the description of it and the labeling and different
information, I could tell that there was ... for example, on ... especially on the stuff that's
released on all the different records, they recorded those songs multiple times. So you might
actually ... you might have 10 ... I'm making up the number, but you might have 10 things that

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were all of the same song recorded on different dates, or using different instruments, or whatever.
So there were multiple things. So there was ways of determining what really you ... was worth
taking the time to listen to. There were things that were marked Tones, you know, that those are

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just literally tones. You're not going to listen to that. There's no point. You're not going to listen
to something that there's only tape of ... one piece of material to listen to because that means ...
that by itself tells you that there's not going to be a complete song. If there's a complete song, it's
a multi- track recording that has however many instruments there are, however ... you have got

lJa
the lead vocals, you got the background vocals, you have got all of these different elements that
have to come together to create a usable, releasable master recording. If ... there's no ... there
was no point in listening to something that there's one single thing that maybe he spent 10
minutes on and nothing else. It's not worth listening to.
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Q. I have no further questions.

Judge Holmes: I'm really ignorant about the music business, Ms. Langford. What's a track?
ich
The Witness: A track ... for example, if you go into a professional studio, recording studio,
there ... they break ... back then in the olden days, they break it down so that there will be ... on
a piece of tape, there are different tracks that you can record. So for example, you would put
different instruments on the different tracks so that if you want to raise the drum level or you
want to bring it down or you want to change ... use the drum track but not the guitar track,
mM

they're all recorded on different ... on the different tracks. That's why a lot of times there will be
24 tracks. Actually, Michael sometimes recorded using double that to have different tracks for
the different instruments, for the different vocal tracks. The lead vocals would be separate from
your background vocals. If there is multiple background vocals, you can have more than one
track. So each separate instrument, including the voice, is going to be recorded on a separate
track so that you can mix them, so that you can pull out the pieces you want and not the others.
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Judge Holmes: So in my misspent youth, the eight-track tape was literally eight of these put
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together?

The Witness: Eight ... the eight-track tapes were how it was copied. And that was the format ...
that was that format, but that's not how you recorded.
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Judge Holmes: That's ... okay. So thinking back to when Michael Jackson was flourishing, are
these tracks like the old cassette track, you know, the little brown strips of recording media?
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The Witness: No. They're ... I would equate them almost more to looking like old film reels,

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you know, like on ...

Judge Holmes: Oh ...

The Witness: ... things.

n.c
Judge Holmes: ... okay.

The Witness: So they're literally tape, but they're on reels and things like that.

so
Judge Holmes: And in what form do they physically get combined, again, back then?

The Witness: In a studio, that would be something that the producers and engineers put

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together, and then they create ... there is different kinds of ... it would ... a master back then
would look almost like a vinyl record when they ...

Judge Holmes: And that is ...

lJa
The Witness: ... get ... when it ... and that's ...

Judge Holmes: ... and ... ae


The Witness: ... get ...

Judge Holmes: ... again ...


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The Witness: ... you take that to ...

Judge Holmes: ... in those days, that would then get pressed and ...

The Witness: ... they would ... there was a ...


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Judge Holmes: The record should show that I'm putting my hands together like the
manufacturing ...

The Witness: Yes. Like a waffle maker, right?

Judge Holmes: There you go. It's different now, I take it, yes?
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The Witness: Yeah. A lot of it is ... now today it's ... a lot of it is done in the computer ...

Judge Holmes: I ...

The Witness: ... so it's very different.


w.

Judge Holmes: ... would imagine so. That was just a vocabulary question for me because I
didn't know it. Is she free to go after all this?
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Mr Camp: Nothing further from Respondent, Your Honor.

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Mr Weitzman: Nothing further, Your Honor.

Judge Holmes: You're free to go. I know it's been a little bit grueling, but thank you for your
testimony. MS. LANGFORD: Thank you.

n.c
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